When it comes to brotherly arguments, there’s one pairing who will forever have the Winchesters beat: Michael and Lucifer. Supernatural has seen the archangel siblings at odds once before, when the season 5 finale gave us our first experience with the apocalypse. That time, the fight ended before it even began when Sam took control of Lucifer and willingly jumped into the cage. But now, with Michael and Lucifer both in the real world, what will Apocalypse 2.0 look like?

“Michael and Lucifer in season 5 had a very specific, almost ritualistic dance they were going to do. They were going to hop into Sam and hop into Dean and have this fight,” co-showrunner Andrew Dabb tells EW. “This time, there are no rules. Michael has a different agenda. Michael’s stronger than anyone else on the show. He’s not as wedded to this idea that Dean Winchester is important at all. He doesn’t need Dean. He doesn’t have that instruction card that he’s following. He’s not trying to get God’s attention; he doesn’t care about God. He’s an extremely narcissistic, selfish person who’s really interested in doing things the way he wants to do them, and we’ve seen the results of that in Apocalypse World. We’ve seen what that leads to, so the showdown is less about this brotherly dynamic and more about this extremely driven individual in Michael who will do anything to win.”

What exactly that means remains to be seen, though Supernatural fans know to expect big things when it comes to season finales. After all, this time last year the show delivered two major deaths and the introduction of alternate worlds. As for how season 13’s ender will compare to season 12, Dabb says, “The body count is lower, but the stakes are higher.”

There is one story line we know will live into next year — the situation in heaven. (Reminder: It’s running low on angels.) As Dabb puts it, that will “continue hanging over us into next season.”