Note: This article has been edited from a previous version

Councillor Mike Del Grande, Mayor Rob Ford’s budget chief, last summer described in blunt terms his “tough love” opposition to some city-funded social programs, including school meals for low-income kids.

Del Grande defended a proposed $400,000 cut to student breakfast programs — he recently and unexpectedly started to oppose the cut — during an hour-long, Aug. 10 city hall chat with then-constituent Hakim Kassam, who recorded it on his iPhone.

“I don’t support the way that’s funded because if we’re going to do breakfast in schools, to me personally, if you have children you’re responsible for children,” Del Grande said in the recording provided by Kassam to the Star.

“The nation is not supposed to be in the bedrooms of the people. But then when you come out of the bedroom and you have children, why is it the state’s responsibility to look after your children? I didn’t tell you to wear a condom or not wear a condom or how many children — you made that decision.”

Kassam, who asked Del Grande (Ward 39, Scarborough Agincourt) for the meeting, did not tell Del Grande he was taping it. He said he recorded it for personal reference and, with the 2012 budget headed to council next week, re-listened to it last week, “to see if there was anything noteworthy involved.” He decided to make it public because he fears socially conservative views helped shape the budget Del Grande and other executive committee members will vote upon Thursday.

Del Grande “isn’t a bad person, per se. He genuinely thinks what he’s doing is the right thing for the city,” said Kassam, who works for a food-centred non-profit and did some work on the Joe Pantalone mayoral campaign. “But I think what he’s doing is fundamentally damaging to Toronto.”

Del Grande did not respond to Star e-mails and calls to his office.

After Kassam broached the subject of Toronto reducing subsidies for recreation fees, Del Grande mentioned he “grew up poor,” never went to camp and took his first vacation when he got married.

Del Grande then noted three agencies serving youth — Chester Le Community Corner, Creating Leaders in Chester Le and Tropicana Community Services — are close to each other in the Chester Le Blvd. area and suggested two could be closed.

“The violence has not decreased, nothing has changed . . . ,” he said. “People come out there with, I hate to generalize, but they’ve all got cellphones, okay . . . I don’t have a BlackBerry personally. I operate on a $23-a-month phone — for business. They come out there with BlackBerrys, iPhones, $200, $300 running shoes, etcetera. Like the priorities are all mixed up.”

Kassam interjects: “But that’s not everyone, right. I mean, I tutor kids who are from Chester Le and they’re, like, engaged in the curriculum.”

Del Grande agrees “it’s not everyone,” but says: “Priorities of people are very different. I know a lady that’s on social assistance. She has three kids with two different fathers, getting social assistance . . . The two boys and her have cellphones.

“Now, $50, $50, $50 — that’s $150 a month for cellphones when you should be thinking, ‘Is this my priority? Maybe I need to feed my family or pay my rent instead of three cellphones for $150.’ You’ve made lifestyle choices. Why then do you ask me to subsidize you when you’re not prepared to make those choices?”

When Kassam counters that people who work hard and have fewer opportunities should be subsidized, Del Grande, a former Catholic school trustee, calls education “the great equalizer.” Kassam raises the school nutrition program as an example, prompting Del Grande’s remarks.

“There are a lot of people, when that welfare cheque comes in at the end of the month, that do exactly that. They go buy their beer … ” Del Grande said. “And we’re being told it’s none of our business because we give them the welfare cheque. I’m from a different mode — if you can’t manage that, then somebody has to help you manage that. And I don’t believe in starving children, I don’t believe in starving children.”

Del Grande complained that “kids have children” who don’t know how to parent. “Yes, there are poor people in the world, okay, but poor people will be with us forever, like it’s been from the moment of time. I think sometimes you have to have tough love, not because you hate people but because they need the support. People should get lessons in budgeting, lessons in nutrition — that’s things to help you, lessons in parenting.”

Del Grande bemoaned the city’s “ticking time bomb” finances. When Kassam asked why the Ford administration backed a big police pay hike, Del Grande said he had no say because the city faced a provincially arbitrated settlement.

Loading... Loading... Loading... Loading... Loading... Loading...

“The police are the No. 1 item on our tax bill, they’re approaching almost $1 billion and they’ve had a very pampered life cycle, that they’ve always been untouchable because they’re part of emergency services.

“Well, this year, my position is they are going to be touched because the pain, if there is any pain to be, it should be shared. That’s my point of view.”

Two months after the conversation, the Ford administration agreed to hike the police budget by 0.6 per cent while asking other departments for a cut of 10 per cent.

Del Grande referred often to his public persona, obviously bothered by labels such as “Oscar the grouch.” He lambasted the media, particularly the Star, for “biased” and superficial commentary.

First elected in 2003, he said his family was once threatened with death when he helped fight marijuana grow-ops, and he was personally threatened with death in July.

But the councillor ended on a philosophical note, at one point saying: “There’ll be another day, there’ll be another election, there’ll be another councillor, life will go on.”

What the budget chief said

• “There’s no point, if you have 10 people and one is poor, like the city in amalgamation, there’s no point in making nine people that are okay and one that’s not become 10 people that are not okay. It makes absolutely no sense. I grew up poor, myself, I didn’t go to camp. I didn’t, whatever. Even when I got married, it was my first vacation, when I got married. There isn’t a God-given right, as far as I’m concerned, that people — I — have to provide for you.”

• “We had three organizations, not one — three — on the same block dealing with the same populace — youth. Chester Le Corner, CLIC, Tropicana — three, on top of the church that’s going in there and bringing busloads of school supplies, etc., etc., etc. The violence has not decreased, nothing has changed, we keep giving people fish, people aren’t fishing on their own. People come out there with — I hate to generalize, but they’ve all get cellphones, okay. I don’t know what your cellphone bill is, if you have a cellphone. I don’t have a BlackBerry personally. I operate on a $23 a month phone — for business. They come out there with BlackBerrys, iPhones, $200, $300 running shoes, etc. Like the priorities are all mixed up.”

• “I know a lady that’s on social assistance, she has three kids with two different fathers, getting social assistance. The youngest one is too young. The two boys and her have cellphones. Now, $50, $50, $50 — that’s $150 a month for cellphones when you should be thinking, ‘Is this my priority? Maybe I need to feed my family or pay my rent instead of three cellphones for $150.’ You’ve made lifestyle choices. Why then do you ask me to subsidize you when you’re not prepared to make those choices?”

• “I don’t support the way that’s funded because if we’re going to do breakfast in schools, to me personally, if you have children you’re responsible for children. The nation is not supposed to be in the bedrooms of the people. But then when you come out of the bedroom and you have children, why is it the state’s responsibility to look after your children? I didn’t tell you to wear a condom or not wear a condom or how many children, you made that decision.”

“I want to be responsible, I want to be fair, I want to be civic-minded. Yes, there are poor people in the world, okay, but poor people will be with us forever, like it’s been from the moment of time. I think sometimes you have to have tough love, not because you hate people but because they need the support. People should get lessons in budgeting, lessons in nutrition – that’s things to help you, lessons in parenting. Kids have children, okay, who don’t know how to parent. Those are the issues.”