making the rest of jab transcendent would make it consistent, it would be weird to suggest the hammer be unclankable during 1 part of the animation and not another. Click to expand...

It absolutely is not fine. DDD absolutely needs something with less commitment and d-tilt should be that move. IT LITERALLY DOESN'T HIT beneath the stage. simply checking debug mode proves it. It isn't a good move out of CC because it takes so long and doesn't do anything but 10% like inhale. the weak hit almost doesn't even give stun and needs to be removed entirely.



you know what d-tilt does do? stops bad approaches or punishes people who can't recover. There is a reason I don't use this move at all. There is 0 potential to use this move at the upper levels of play and it actually doing something favorable. Click to expand...

This is Bull**** right here. Why does it matter if our up-smash works well with our kit? it looks powerful and isn't. I don't care if they add a sour spot behind him to balance it out. the strong hit needs to be stronger. and Fox lands up-smash in WAY more situations than us landing it. what does it matter if it has less range when people can connect it so easily and we can't Click to expand...

this is a ****ing joke.



Jump dair used to do this also but now it barely does. Click to expand...

that takes 16 frames to come out and is forced out for 57 Click to expand...

NO IT CAN'T. not in any meaningful way. I'm so sick of people saying this. People watch Heysuess and Mach walk to the ledge jump away 2x and then on their 3rd jump turn around and inhale to try and take someone with them. ITS SO BAD. This tactic never works on actually skilled opponents. people blatently don't know the MU if they are running after DDD offstage. Click to expand...

I wouldn't even consider this a positive aspect right now Click to expand...

if people see us using this move then they can purposefully throw out smash attacks and then trade with us because they knowingly will take 10% and just reset positioning. I'm fine with grab armor w/e but people shouldn't be able to do this. Click to expand...

I'm not saying we need a follow up, but we deserve more than 10%. Click to expand...

it literally could be escaped be anyone who could run as fast as squirtle or faster. and squirtle has a very slow run speed of 1.35. Click to expand...

That's why you don't ****ing run and jump at DDD when inhale is out. It literally has the easiest counterplay in the world of "run away". if you don't run toward DDD, bad things don't happen. the fact that they nerfed inhale simply because people didn't understand this goes beyond comprehension. Click to expand...

any situation that waddles could set up by walking could be set up yourself by Wdashing and placing a waddle in the correct spot. Waddles are too fast to actually give me any control of what I want to trap onstage. Click to expand...

its only different when throw for excessively long time. and not different at all before that. you've spouted a lot misinformation that I don't think you actually know anything about DDD Click to expand...

They travel at an angle and speed that's still pretty different than waddles, so hitting them at longer range is still near impossible, and it takes away a waddle that could have hit. Click to expand...

I'm going to remain neutral on this one, as I'm indifferent here. On one hand, like you said, it would remain consistent, but at the same time, making a move unclankable buffs a move a lot, so I don't know if I would give it to all 3 hits of his jab (especially not the third hit/spin).I'll say it again: D tilt is fine. It's a move that punishes people who don't sweet spot the ledge, as well as poor recovery choices, and at most percents, will knock someone away far enough for you to follow up with an offstage guard, grab ledge, throw a waddle, set up for another d tilt, etc... And this is how a move like this SHOULD work with edge guarding.This is a quote taken from the Project M website:"Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding."D tilt adheres to the Project M's design philosophy perfectly: it's not too risky to use as an edge guard, but not as rewarding as going off stage. Oh, and it does actually go slightly below the stage As for the commitment issue, I see where you're coming from, and a shaving a few frames off the endlag couldn't hurt.That's a really poor way of thinking about game design. The move is strong as it is right now, at least strong enough to adhere to the animation, but buffing a move because you don't think it looks stronger than it actually is? That's just silly. And you compared Dedede to Fox again: Dedede's up smash is meant for option coverage and hitting people when they're trying to come down on top of you. Fox's up smash is a kill move that is meant to punish mistakes in neutral or end combos. They're completely different, and balancing them based on each other will not help the game at all.Also, if you add a sourspot on the move, that'll completely change it's design. As I said, it's designed for option coverage: it can cover anything that goes behind, in front, or above you, and that alone is a very strong tool that a lot of characters don't have, and adding a sourspot and a sweetspot to that would be nerfing it, if anything.Did it really? The way I see it, if you jump dair'd on someone's shield, you were putting yourself at a disadvantage. Dair still has landing lag, so even if you don't land, it's punishable, and if you did land, you had landing lag, and you're put in a similar situation as to what I just mentioned, where you can easily be punished. Sure, there were ways to make it safe on shield, but we've always had swallow, which is pretty much always safe on shield, since it's a grab.So? The move should be slow. It's got a bigger grab box than most command grabs, as well as the windbox, and you can keep it out for as long as you want. Even then, most command grabs come out fairly slow, the exception being Wario, and he can't even b reverse his. Command grabs are a fantastic tool, and they have to be balanced somehow.I see what you mean with what you said about it not being able to work in a meaningful way in most situations. Dedede's walk with someone inhaled is pretty slow, and mashing slows it down even more. But, the bottom line here is that it still can be used as one. It's not the best option, but it IS still an option, and you're denying that fact.As for it not working on people who don't know the MU/skilled players in general, you sure about that one? I'd like to bring up a scenario here: Let's say Fox is off stage, and I know he's going to recover above the ledge with side b. I can jump up and fair, but at his current percent, he'll live and be able to recover with an up b, which provides him with a few mixups as to which angle he'll chose to up b. So, say I have a stock lead, or we're both on our last stock. I'm not confident in reading the up b angle that he'll be able to do if I fair him, so instead, I jump forward and swallow him as he side b's into me, and I get a swallowcide.In this scenario, the skill of the Fox player doesn't matter. He's simply trying to mixup his recovery by recovering high, an option that has it's up's and down's, but I read it. And again, it's not my best option here, but it gave me assurance: Now I don't have to worry about reading the up b angle.Why not? Even if it may not be as good as it used to be, we still have a windbox that drags people into our grab box. Not matter how you look at that, it's a huge benefit.If someone has the time to throw out a smash attack, I guarantee they have a better option than that. Plus, you have to think about the situations in which you would use swallow. It's a command grab. It's not supposed to be safe unless it's on someone's shield, and the fact that we can already power through a lot of stuff with grab armor makes it safe in a few more situations, which is a plus, if anything.We already have something besides the 10%. Neutral b get's the opponent off stage, and sets up for an edge guard, which is what Dedede is fundamentally designed to do. Granted, this isn't guaranteed since you can jump out of the star pretty early, but like I said, that's one of the things the PMDT should be adjusting next patch.Again, I'd like to bring up what I said before about command grabs. They should only be safe on shield, and you can't usually run away from Dedede's windbox if you're in shield, and even then, there are still a lot of characters slower than Squirtle.I don't feel the need to repeat myself here. It shouldn't really be safe unless it's on shield. Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to say this move shouldn't be useful unless on shield, it just shouldn't really be too safe unless it is on shield. There should still be plenty of situations, like swallowciding as an edge guard or using it to abuse grab armor, but it shouldn't really be your best option there. In order to balance this, it should yield more reward, and I think what I said before about not being able to immediately jump out of the star already covers that.Assuming they stand still or walk slower, you absolutely could set them up with waddle dashing, but doing that takes more time/commitment then throwing a waddle and waiting for it to go where it needs to go while you have free movement. Granted, if they walked slower, you could set them up in the same way you can now, it would just take longer (which isn't necessarily good or bad). Their walking speed basically depends on personal preference, so there's not much of a reason to change it.It seems you only quoted the first part of that statement:I figured that mentioning the part about hitting them at longer range implied that I meant the angle differs at longer range, but I guess I still wasn't clear enough. I'll count that as my bad there.Anyway, I stand by what I said before. Fixing Dedede would revolve around better defensive options (rolls/spot dodge), buffing dair, stronger windboxes on neutral b and making it safe on hit, making jab 1 and f tilt unclankable, making f smash a tad faster, and adjusting side b.