User Info: MR_Soren MR_Soren 2 years ago #1



When Haku awoke, his first thought was that he has to get back to everybody. His sister-in-law, niece, and brother. His family. Regardless of everybody he met and everything that happened, this was always his goal. Haku's lost family is also the only topic he avoided discussing with Kuon.



The tatari Kuon "saved" him from was probably not a threat. Being so close to where he was found, it was probably once a person he knew. I believe it recognized him and deliberately saved his life before attempting to communicate. Once again hinting at Haku's primary objective.



Onkami Haku is constantly surrounded by pink flower petals. Kuon is always wearing pink flower petals in her hair. Could these both be from the same flower, and could it be the flower that represents familial love? This would suggest that they are both aligned in what they believe is most important.



Early in Mask of Deception, Kuon said that her travels had an objective, but said that there was no specific timeline and did not elaborate. She was probably looking for a way to bring Eruruu and her father back. That's why she was always exploring ancient ruins. Like Haku, she kept her goal a secret from everybody, even from the person she shared everything else with.



Haku and Kuon would not let their love for each other hinder their secret goals. Kuon wanted to stay in the shrine with Eruruu rather than continue following Haku. Likewise, despite his brother saying there is no rush, Haku immediately ran off without Kuon to chase the Master Key because he believed it would bring back his family.



Haku and Kuon both demonstrated that they would leave each other's side to reunite with lost family members. By destroying the Tatari, Haku's sister-in-law and niece are able to join him in heaven, while Kuon can reunite on with Eruruu and Hakuowlo on earth. At the end of the game, Haku and Kuon have both accomplished the goals they had before they knew each other. There are no more secrets between Haku and Kuon, and there is no longer any unfinished business that is important enough to separate them ever again. It was a good place to end the story if you think about it like that. Let's Attack Aggressively! I was thinking about the flower Genho and Kuon were discussing. The flower that symbolized familial love. Seems like an important theme.When Haku awoke, his first thought was that he has to get back to everybody. His sister-in-law, niece, and brother. His family. Regardless of everybody he met and everything that happened, this was always his goal. Haku's lost family is also the only topic he avoided discussing with Kuon.The tatari Kuon "saved" him from was probably not a threat. Being so close to where he was found, it was probably once a person he knew. I believe it recognized him and deliberately saved his life before attempting to communicate. Once again hinting at Haku's primary objective.Onkami Haku is constantly surrounded by pink flower petals. Kuon is always wearing pink flower petals in her hair. Could these both be from the same flower, and could it be the flower that represents familial love? This would suggest that they are both aligned in what they believe is most important.Early in Mask of Deception, Kuon said that her travels had an objective, but said that there was no specific timeline and did not elaborate. She was probably looking for a way to bring Eruruu and her father back. That's why she was always exploring ancient ruins. Like Haku, she kept her goal a secret from everybody, even from the person she shared everything else with.Haku and Kuon would not let their love for each other hinder their secret goals. Kuon wanted to stay in the shrine with Eruruu rather than continue following Haku. Likewise, despite his brother saying there is no rush, Haku immediately ran off without Kuon to chase the Master Key because he believed it would bring back his family.Haku and Kuon both demonstrated that they would leave each other's side to reunite with lost family members. By destroying the Tatari, Haku's sister-in-law and niece are able to join him in heaven, while Kuon can reunite on with Eruruu and Hakuowlo on earth. At the end of the game, Haku and Kuon have both accomplished the goals they had before they knew each other. There are no more secrets between Haku and Kuon, and there is no longer any unfinished business that is important enough to separate them ever again. It was a good place to end the story if you think about it like that.

User Info: MR_Soren MR_Soren (Topic Creator) 2 years ago #2



So, what happens with Haku and Kuon's relationship? Perhaps nothing. Their existences might be completely alien to each other now. They're back with their families. The goals that drove them are completed. Perhaps they continue their own unique existences with happiness and contentment. On the other hand, maybe they continue the familial love theme and add each other to their families. Once again, a flower may provide the clue.



When Haku, Kuon, Ukon, Rulutieh, Maroro, and the Twins, all arrived in the capital, they met in a banquet hall at the Hakurokakku Inn. The room had a name: The Red Chrysanthemum room. Red Chrysanthemum symbolizes love. The writers would not have told us the room's name unless it was significant.



I do not speak Japanese, but does anybody have a translation for the Inn's name? Hakurokaku? Anyway...



I believe the Inn is related to Karalau's secret goal, and that is to host Hakuowlo's return party / family reunion. I believe planning this party is Karalau's secret side job mentioned in the epilogue, and Ulthury's arrival marks the first of the guests to arrive. Ulthury is also a very significant first guest. She doesn't make casual visits, something is up.



Kuon is currently in Kujyuri where Haku appeared before her. She is completely oblivious to this surprise party awaiting her in the capital. Even so, she almost guessed it, that's why Haku stopped talking when she suggested that everybody meet up at the Inn. He didn't want to spoil the surprise.



Anju, Munechika, Mikazuchi, and Kiwru are shown traveling in "A Certain Country". I'm not sure why they chose to leave out the name of the location, but the background graphic is the same as one used early in Mask of Deception when they were in Kujyuri. If that isn't just random re-use of assets, they've now established that Anju, Munechika, Mikazuchi, Kiwru, Rulutieh, Shis, Yashmah, Fumirul, and Kuon are all currently in Kujyuri. There's a good chance that they cross paths and head towards the Inn together, especially since some of them must know about the surprise party.



The epilogue also shows that Camyu and Aruruu are heading out to follow Kuon, while Nosuri and Atuy are out looking for Haku. It seems likely that everybody, by choice, chance, invitation, or fate, will wind up at the inn. Together. In the Red Chrysanthemum Room. The Love Room.



Red definitely does not symbolize familial love, it symbolizes romantic love. So, this party that everybody is going to stumble upon, is it just a family reunion to commemorate Hakuowlo's return, or are they hinting at something more? The high priestess is already there, and the guests are assembling. Let's Attack Aggressively! Haku no longer needs to slip away from everybody and wander the world searching for a cure to the Tatari problem, and Kuon no longer needs to slip away from her family to search for a way to return Hakuowlo and Eruruu.So, what happens with Haku and Kuon's relationship? Perhaps nothing. Their existences might be completely alien to each other now. They're back with their families. The goals that drove them are completed. Perhaps they continue their own unique existences with happiness and contentment. On the other hand, maybe they continue the familial love theme and add each other to their families. Once again, a flower may provide the clue.When Haku, Kuon, Ukon, Rulutieh, Maroro, and the Twins, all arrived in the capital, they met in a banquet hall at the Hakurokakku Inn. The room had a name: The Red Chrysanthemum room. Red Chrysanthemum symbolizes love. The writers would not have told us the room's name unless it was significant.I do not speak Japanese, but does anybody have a translation for the Inn's name? Hakurokaku? Anyway...I believe the Inn is related to Karalau's secret goal, and that is to host Hakuowlo's return party / family reunion. I believe planning this party is Karalau's secret side job mentioned in the epilogue, and Ulthury's arrival marks the first of the guests to arrive. Ulthury is also a very significant first guest. She doesn't make casual visits, something is up.Kuon is currently in Kujyuri where Haku appeared before her. She is completely oblivious to this surprise party awaiting her in the capital. Even so, she almost guessed it, that's why Haku stopped talking when she suggested that everybody meet up at the Inn. He didn't want to spoil the surprise.Anju, Munechika, Mikazuchi, and Kiwru are shown traveling in "A Certain Country". I'm not sure why they chose to leave out the name of the location, but the background graphic is the same as one used early in Mask of Deception when they were in Kujyuri. If that isn't just random re-use of assets, they've now established that Anju, Munechika, Mikazuchi, Kiwru, Rulutieh, Shis, Yashmah, Fumirul, and Kuon are all currently in Kujyuri. There's a good chance that they cross paths and head towards the Inn together, especially since some of them must know about the surprise party.The epilogue also shows that Camyu and Aruruu are heading out to follow Kuon, while Nosuri and Atuy are out looking for Haku. It seems likely that everybody, by choice, chance, invitation, or fate, will wind up at the inn. Together. In the Red Chrysanthemum Room. The Love Room.Red definitely does not symbolize familial love, it symbolizes romantic love. So, this party that everybody is going to stumble upon, is it just a family reunion to commemorate Hakuowlo's return, or are they hinting at something more? The high priestess is already there, and the guests are assembling.

User Info: Xerain Xerain 2 years ago #3



Fortunately, some of eh examples you gave are easy ones. In the first game there are two flowers which have very important significance. These flowers are Eruruu and Aruruu. I'm not certain whether or not these are actually Ainu words for flowers that exist today or not. However, their symbolic meaning in the first game is made explicit when Eruruu tells Hakuowlo about the origin of her and Aruruu's names. The two flowers always grow next to each other and bloom together. They represent a familial bond. There is also a strong insinuation in the first game that Eruruu is the reincarnation of the Iceman's wife, Mikoto, and that Aruruu is the reincarnation of their daughter.



It is my opinion that the flower growing in Genho's garden was Eruruu, and that the scene was written in the very Japanese way of "leaving the obvious unsaid." The flower has special meaning to Kuon because it represents her dearest mother she has not seen in years.



As for the flower petals swirling around Haku in the last battle, I believe the meaning is quite different, simply because of how obvious this on is. First, Rakuen, the Japanese concept of paradise or heaven, is often depicted as filled with flowers. I'm not all the knowledgeable on this, but I've seen the symbolism enough times where it seems solid. Symbolically there seems to be a lot of overlap with the Greek conceptualization of elysium, so perhaps it's something of a modern concept the Japanese borrowed from there? (If I had to place any bets though, I'd say the got the idea from one of the many forms of Buddhism.) So getting to the heart of the matter, Kotohamuru is repeatedly described as being full of flowers and butterflies. This is the reason why Fumirul, who is Holy affinity, has lots of flower and butterfly symbolism in her attacks. She even sings hymns about the butterflies of kotohamuru while attacking, asking the butterflies which flowers they like best. We can actually see the butterflies when Haku is on the border of Kotohamuru.



Additionally, the petals flying around Haku are almost certainly Cherry Blossoms, sakura. In Japan there is a lot of symbolism linking the lives of human beings to flowers. The flowers bloom and are beautiful for a short while, before scattering on the wind, sange. In particular, the associate with falling sakura petals and the souls of noble warriors is so strong that if a Japanese person meant anything else by it, they would most likely go out of their way to use a different flower. Therefore, the flowers swirling around Haku in the final battle almost certainly are there to symbolize he is now an ethereal being from heaven. Additionally, there is almost certainly meaning to the Akuruturuka very specifically turning into salt as opposed to some other substance. Haven't looked into it yet, but the way the salt is seen floating in the air reminded me of the symbolism of sakura floating in the air... and they they actually used that sakura symbolism during the last battle. Sliced bread is over hyped. I give it a 5.

~~Xerain I'm glad you made a separate topic about this, because this is a very good discussion to have. Despite knowing how important the flower symbolism is in this game, I haven't really delved into it given the enormity of the task. Flower Symbolism, in general, is huge. You could say flowers alone comprise a large part of all symbolism, in general. However, because of that we know we can't just lump all flowers together. The color and species always matters and can't be ignored. Hence the enormity of the task. We woudl need to identify all the different flowers used as part for the flower symbolism. However, I can tell you flower symbolism also played a big role int eh first game, so it is definitely being used intentionally, and there woudl be value in undertaking such a task.Fortunately, some of eh examples you gave are easy ones. In the first game there are two flowers which have very important significance. These flowers areand. I'm not certain whether or not these are actually Ainu words for flowers that exist today or not. However, their symbolic meaning in the first game is made explicit when Eruruu tells Hakuowlo about the origin of her and Aruruu's names. The two flowers always grow next to each other and bloom together. They represent a familial bond. There is also a strong insinuation in the first game that Eruruu is the reincarnation of the Iceman's wife, Mikoto, and that Aruruu is the reincarnation of their daughter.It is my opinion that the flower growing in Genho's garden was, and that the scene was written in the very Japanese way of "leaving the obvious unsaid." The flower has special meaning to Kuon because it represents her dearest mother she has not seen in years.As for the flower petals swirling around Haku in the last battle, I believe the meaning is quite different, simply because of how obvious this on is. First, Rakuen, the Japanese concept of paradise or heaven, is often depicted as filled with flowers. I'm not all the knowledgeable on this, but I've seen the symbolism enough times where it seems solid. Symbolically there seems to be a lot of overlap with the Greek conceptualization of, so perhaps it's something of a modern concept the Japanese borrowed from there? (If I had to place any bets though, I'd say the got the idea from one of the many forms of Buddhism.) So getting to the heart of the matter, Kotohamuru is repeatedly described as being full of flowers and butterflies. This is the reason why Fumirul, who is Holy affinity, has lots of flower and butterfly symbolism in her attacks. She even sings hymns about the butterflies of kotohamuru while attacking, asking the butterflies which flowers they like best. We can actually see the butterflies when Haku is on the border of Kotohamuru.Additionally, the petals flying around Haku are almost certainly Cherry Blossoms,. In Japan there is a lot of symbolism linking the lives of human beings to flowers. The flowers bloom and are beautiful for a short while, before scattering on the wind,. In particular, the associate with fallingpetals and the souls of noble warriors is so strong that if a Japanese person meant anything else by it, they would most likely go out of their way to use a different flower. Therefore, the flowers swirling around Haku in the final battle almost certainly are there to symbolize he is now an ethereal being from heaven. Additionally, there is almost certainly meaning to the Akuruturuka very specifically turning into salt as opposed to some other substance. Haven't looked into it yet, but the way the salt is seen floating in the air reminded me of the symbolism offloating in the air... and they they actually used thatsymbolism during the last battle.

User Info: Xerain Xerain 2 years ago #4 Nuedori. I won't go into too much detail here, but the Nuedori is a species of thrush. It's cry is best described as hollow, empty, melancholic, and haunting. Hearing it's haunting cry at twilight is a source of unease, a reminder that the super natural is at foot. That's why it's called Nuedori, Nue Bird, with Nue being a beast in Japanese folk lore similar to a chimera. Additionally, Nuedori is a "pillow word." I don't know nearly as much about pillow words as I'd like to but, much like the western 'language of flowers" (which the Japanese are definitely aware of, as I've seen it mentioned a few times in games and anime) there are certain words that have well defined poetic meanings, to the extend that you have to assume someone means that word when they use it poetically. In the case of Nuedori, it's poetic meaning is "Unrequired Love."



There is a strong tie between the Nuedori theme and Kuon. The song, in my opinion, is sung from her point of view. Additionally, she is associated with the monstrous and supernatural beings, i.e. yokai / Nugiwisomkami. Most blatantly, she has her skill Nuedori. it's quite interesting how that skill evolves over the game. It starts out as a purely defensive skill that buffs her and immediate allies. Then later it gains that ability to increase attack power as well. Finally, it becomes the skill that is used to unleash her power, allowing her to power up into overzeal at will. If I remember rightly, that part of the skill is unlocked only after Kuon openly unleashes her power against Haku and Mikazuchi. Whether tied to that event, or just calculated where there's no way she'd get it through leveling before that, I'm not so sure.



Anyhow, I got a bit side tracked. The point is, Nuedori is basically "Kuon's Theme." A brooding supernatural theme of unrequited love. There are a couple bgm tracks in the game that use the Nuedori melody. Even in MoT, they still play them. And it really feels like there's intentionality behind when and were they play Nuedori BGM tracks as opposed to MoT's new Hikari based BGM tracks.



The translations of Nuedori on youtube are pretty bad. This is currently the best translation I've fond on the net:

http://www.lyrical-nonsense.com/lyrics/suara/nuedori/#Romaji



On the whole it's a much better job than I could have done. The translator definitely has some knowledge of how certain phrases are used in Japanese, by Japanese, that I lack. However it's also clear he missed some symbolism I am aware of when translation. In particular, I would perhaps change line 4 to "The Nue Bird sings a hollow lullaby." The tough word is uranaki, which a lot of others translate literally as "heartless" however, that's wrong since "heartless" means "cruel" in English, which is incorrect. The actual meaning seems closer to "one's heart's not in it," though my Japanese isn't good enough (I mostly just used rikaichan browser plugin to get the meaning) to say that definitively. Still, "plain" is more accurate than "heartless aka cruel" you seen on YouTube. Perhaps empty or dispirited would work.



But where I'm going with this is... Lullabies are another huge part of this series. They certainly have a strong connection to family. Sadame (Fate) is the big one from the first game, which Kuon sings for Haku. In the lyrics to Nuedori, in all cases (which is only once or twice, to be fair) the word sadame is used to for fate, as opposed to other more common words like unmei. Sliced bread is over hyped. I give it a 5.

~~Xerain It's slightly off topic, but before I forget, there is also important bird symbolism in the game, in particular, theI won't go into too much detail here, but theis a species of thrush. It's cry is best described as hollow, empty, melancholic, and haunting. Hearing it's haunting cry at twilight is a source of unease, a reminder that the super natural is at foot. That's why it's called, Nue Bird, with Nue being a beast in Japanese folk lore similar to a chimera. Additionally,is a "pillow word." I don't know nearly as much about pillow words as I'd like to but, much like the western 'language of flowers" (which the Japanese are definitely aware of, as I've seen it mentioned a few times in games and anime) there are certain words that have well defined poetic meanings, to the extend that you have to assume someone means that word when they use it poetically. In the case of, it's poetic meaning is "Unrequired Love."There is a strong tie between thetheme and Kuon. The song, in my opinion, is sung from her point of view. Additionally, she is associated with the monstrous and supernatural beings, i.e./ Nugiwisomkami. Most blatantly, she has her skill Nuedori. it's quite interesting how that skill evolves over the game. It starts out as a purely defensive skill that buffs her and immediate allies. Then later it gains that ability to increase attack power as well. Finally, it becomes the skill that is used to unleash her power, allowing her to power up into overzeal at will. If I remember rightly, that part of the skill is unlocked only after Kuon openly unleashes her power against Haku and Mikazuchi. Whether tied to that event, or just calculated where there's no way she'd get it through leveling before that, I'm not so sure.Anyhow, I got a bit side tracked. The point is,is basically "Kuon's Theme." A brooding supernatural theme of unrequited love. There are a couple bgm tracks in the game that use themelody. Even in MoT, they still play them. And it really feels like there's intentionality behind when and were they playBGM tracks as opposed to MoT's newbased BGM tracks.The translations of Nuedori on youtube are pretty bad. This is currently the best translation I've fond on the net:http://www.lyrical-nonsense.com/lyrics/suara/nuedori/#RomajiOn the whole it's a much better job than I could have done. The translator definitely has some knowledge of how certain phrases are used in Japanese, by Japanese, that I lack. However it's also clear he missed some symbolism I am aware of when translation. In particular, I would perhaps change line 4 to "The Nue Bird sings a hollow lullaby." The tough word is, which a lot of others translate literally as "heartless" however, that's wrong since "heartless" means "cruel" in English, which is incorrect. The actual meaning seems closer to "one's heart's not in it," though my Japanese isn't good enough (I mostly just used rikaichan browser plugin to get the meaning) to say that definitively. Still, "plain" is more accurate than "heartless aka cruel" you seen on YouTube. Perhaps empty or dispirited would work.But where I'm going with this is... Lullabies are another huge part of this series. They certainly have a strong connection to family.(Fate) is the big one from the first game, which Kuon sings for Haku. In the lyrics to, in all cases (which is only once or twice, to be fair) the wordis used to for fate, as opposed to other more common words like

User Info: Nagido Nagido 2 years ago #5 Xerain posted...

A brooding supernatural theme of unrequited love

That's interesting. For the most part (of 2 games), we don't actually know how Haku feels about Kuon, while Kuon's feelings for him are clearly spelled out.

We are even shown that one scene again where Atuy asks Haku and Kuon if they are a couple (the one from Mask of Deception), and he says "no" without a hint of hesitation, while Kuon's reaction in Mask of Truth is simple a "..." that could imply that she felt upset/hurt by his quick response, even if she wasn't aware of her feelings yet.

Still, by the end of MoT, we know for a fact that he feels the same way about her, so if anything, Nuedori would be Kuon's theme in MoT specifically, but does not necessarily say anything about her future.

I'd say that their scene together in the Epilogue makes this rather clear. Haku could have gotten the fan through Hakuowlo, had he wanted to. He did not have to show himself to Kuon, much less leave physical proof that he was there, yet he did. Kuon's reaction also implies, or rather outright spells out, that she has no intention of giving up on him.

Still, Nuedori seems to be an exceptionally fitting theme for Kuon, at least up until the point when Haku saves her at the very end.



@MR_Soren

One of the great things about Utawarerumono is that the characters are (at least for the most part) far from one dimensional. It would have been all too easy to write a bunch of love struck characters who are willing to give up on everything and anything for the sake of love. The thing is, that's not exactly realistic and can be downright obnoxious. One thing I particularly like about Kuon is that she has a plethora of interests that have nothing to do with Haku, but at the same time clearly cares for him. She also deeply cares for her friends and family. I think it is important to point out that different forms of love are not mutually exclusive.



What I am trying to say by that is that meeting Eruru again, and hesitating to leave, does not mean that Kuon chose her mother over Haku. It simply is a fitting, natural reaction considering the fact that she had been looking for her mother for quite a while and met her again in the most unexpected way. Don't forget that she is still young and in many ways rather immature. What do you think would have happened if Kuon had stayed behind? She probably would have ended up blaming herself again, especially if something had happened to one of her friends (it doesn't even need to be Haku). I'd like to think that this is at least part of the reason why Eruru makes the decision for her.



The part about the Hakurokaku inn and especially the Red Chrysanthemum room is quite interesting. Ulthury's arrival there is more than a bit suspicious. She is a priestess, which implies service to a god, with Hakuowlo being both her husband and a former god, while Haku is presently a god. Could it be that she went there to start preparing things for the arrival of some especially esteemed patrons? But there is more, Aruru and Camuy are in Yamato and I found it interesting to see Aruru saying that they just might end up sleeping in the same city, the same inn, the room as Kuon. Of course, those things could be completely unrelated.

Still, I do agree with you that things seem to be hinting towards a return to Hakurokaku. The Red Chrysanthemum standing for romantic love also seems fitting, considering Hakuowlo would be reunited with his wives (as well as his daughter and friends) and Haku, if he were to show up, would be reunited with his friends and all the girls, and while we do not know how Haku feels about them (outside Kuon of course), their feelings are all to obvious.



That was a longer post than expected. And I think I derailed the topic somewhat. Sorry about that. That's interesting. For the most part (of 2 games), we don't actually know how Haku feels about Kuon, while Kuon's feelings for him are clearly spelled out.We are even shown that one scene again where Atuy asks Haku and Kuon if they are a couple (the one from Mask of Deception), and he says "no" without a hint of hesitation, while Kuon's reaction in Mask of Truth is simple a "..." that could imply that she felt upset/hurt by his quick response, even if she wasn't aware of her feelings yet.Still, by the end of MoT, we know for a fact that he feels the same way about her, so if anything, Nuedori would be Kuon's theme in MoT specifically, but does not necessarily say anything about her future.I'd say that their scene together in the Epilogue makes this rather clear. Haku could have gotten the fan through Hakuowlo, had he wanted to. He did not have to show himself to Kuon, much less leave physical proof that he was there, yet he did. Kuon's reaction also implies, or rather outright spells out, that she has no intention of giving up on him.Still, Nuedori seems to be an exceptionally fitting theme for Kuon, at least up until the point when Haku saves her at the very end.@MR_SorenOne of the great things about Utawarerumono is that the characters are (at least for the most part) far from one dimensional. It would have been all too easy to write a bunch of love struck characters who are willing to give up on everything and anything for the sake of love. The thing is, that's not exactly realistic and can be downright obnoxious. One thing I particularly like about Kuon is that she has a plethora of interests that have nothing to do with Haku, but at the same time clearly cares for him. She also deeply cares for her friends and family. I think it is important to point out that different forms of love are not mutually exclusive.What I am trying to say by that is that meeting Eruru again, and hesitating to leave, does not mean that Kuon chose her mother over Haku. It simply is a fitting, natural reaction considering the fact that she had been looking for her mother for quite a while and met her again in the most unexpected way. Don't forget that she is still young and in many ways rather immature. What do you think would have happened if Kuon had stayed behind? She probably would have ended up blaming herself again, especially if something had happened to one of her friends (it doesn't even need to be Haku). I'd like to think that this is at least part of the reason why Eruru makes the decision for her.The part about the Hakurokaku inn and especially the Red Chrysanthemum room is quite interesting. Ulthury's arrival there is more than a bit suspicious. She is a priestess, which implies service to a god, with Hakuowlo being both her husband and a former god, while Haku is presently a god. Could it be that she went there to start preparing things for the arrival of some especially esteemed patrons? But there is more, Aruru and Camuy are in Yamato and I found it interesting to see Aruru saying that they just might end up sleeping in the same city, the same inn, the room as Kuon. Of course, those things could be completely unrelated.Still, I do agree with you that things seem to be hinting towards a return to Hakurokaku. The Red Chrysanthemum standing for romantic love also seems fitting, considering Hakuowlo would be reunited with his wives (as well as his daughter and friends) and Haku, if he were to show up, would be reunited with his friends and all the girls, and while we do not know how Haku feels about them (outside Kuon of course), their feelings are all to obvious.That was a longer post than expected. And I think I derailed the topic somewhat. Sorry about that.

User Info: MR_Soren MR_Soren (Topic Creator) 2 years ago #6 Xerain posted...

It is my opinion that the flower growing in Genho's garden was Eruruu, and that the scene was written in the very Japanese way of "leaving the obvious unsaid." The flower has special meaning to Kuon because it represents her dearest mother she has not seen in years.



That was my guess as well. Makes me wonder who gave those flowers to Genho.



Xerain posted...

Additionally, the petals flying around Haku are almost certainly Cherry Blossoms, sakura.



Thank you for correcting me. I went out on a limb trying to link Haku's petals with Kuon's hairpiece. (Incidentally, Aruruu sometimes wears a goofy hat with the same flowers as Kuon.)



Does an image of Eruruu and Aruruu flowers exist in any of the games?



Additionally, there is almost certainly meaning to the Akuruturuka very specifically turning into salt as opposed to some other substance.



There is Lot's wife from the bible. I don't know if these games borrow from Judeo Christian mythology, that's more of a Tears to Tiara thing, but Lot's wife was turned to salt for looking back at the city of Sodom as it was being destroyed by God's fire and brimstone. "Looking back" is also how Atuy described Kuon's big mistake.



Perhaps turning to salt is a standard punishment for disobeying God in multiple belief systems? Everything the Mikado created seemed to be dark-aligned, such as Woshis, the Twins, and his flawed copy of the Iceman mask. He used science to access the origin directly, bypassing the Onkami, and falsely labeling himself as a god. Woshis messed with the same powers, and his creations also turned to salt. In the end, the Mikado's city was destroyed by fire and brimstone from the heavens by somebody on the path to true godhood.



Salt was also mentioned a lot with Rulutieh's cooking, specifically how she was making the food extra salty to replenish what the soldiers were sweating out in training.



Xerain posted...

Nuedori is a species of thrush. It's cry is best described as hollow, empty, melancholic, and haunting. Hearing it's haunting cry at twilight is a source of unease, a reminder that the super natural is at foot.



This is fantastic. I had long wondered what Nuedori meant since it was the theme song to mask of deception and the name of one of Kuon's abilities. I always found the beginning of the video with the music and Kuon wandering through the snow to be quite beautiful and haunting.



It's quite interesting how that skill evolves over the game.



Same with Haku's Sword Mode and Rulutieh's flute. It was quite brilliant how the skills had their own stories to tell. It's probably why they kept the Japanese names.



Nuedori is basically "Kuon's Theme." A brooding supernatural theme of unrequited love. There are a couple bgm tracks in the game that use the Nuedori melody. Even in MoT, they still play them. And it really feels like there's intentionality behind when and were they play Nuedori BGM tracks as opposed to MoT's new Hikari based BGM tracks.



Yes, I'm certain that the music choices are as meaningful as the other types of symbolism. I'll need to pay more attention if I ever find time to play through these again.



Incidentally, Yellow Chrysanthemum means Slighted Love and Daffodil means Unrequited Love. Maybe keep an eye out for those around Kuon.



There was also a blue flower that showed up in certain scenes. I think the long Akuruturuka fight between Haku and Mikazuchi was one such scene. Let's Attack Aggressively! That was my guess as well. Makes me wonder who gave those flowers to Genho.Thank you for correcting me. I went out on a limb trying to link Haku's petals with Kuon's hairpiece. (Incidentally, Aruruu sometimes wears a goofy hat with the same flowers as Kuon.)Does an image of Eruruu and Aruruu flowers exist in any of the games?There is Lot's wife from the bible. I don't know if these games borrow from Judeo Christian mythology, that's more of a Tears to Tiara thing, but Lot's wife was turned to salt for looking back at the city of Sodom as it was being destroyed by God's fire and brimstone. "Looking back" is also how Atuy described Kuon's big mistake.Perhaps turning to salt is a standard punishment for disobeying God in multiple belief systems? Everything the Mikado created seemed to be dark-aligned, such as Woshis, the Twins, and his flawed copy of the Iceman mask. He used science to access the origin directly, bypassing the Onkami, and falsely labeling himself as a god. Woshis messed with the same powers, and his creations also turned to salt. In the end, the Mikado's city was destroyed by fire and brimstone from the heavens by somebody on the path to true godhood.Salt was also mentioned a lot with Rulutieh's cooking, specifically how she was making the food extra salty to replenish what the soldiers were sweating out in training.This is fantastic. I had long wondered what Nuedori meant since it was the theme song to mask of deception and the name of one of Kuon's abilities. I always found the beginning of the video with the music and Kuon wandering through the snow to be quite beautiful and haunting.Same with Haku's Sword Mode and Rulutieh's flute. It was quite brilliant how the skills had their own stories to tell. It's probably why they kept the Japanese names.Yes, I'm certain that the music choices are as meaningful as the other types of symbolism. I'll need to pay more attention if I ever find time to play through these again.Incidentally, Yellow Chrysanthemum means Slighted Love and Daffodil means Unrequited Love. Maybe keep an eye out for those around Kuon.There was also a blue flower that showed up in certain scenes. I think the long Akuruturuka fight between Haku and Mikazuchi was one such scene.

User Info: MR_Soren MR_Soren (Topic Creator) 2 years ago #7 Nagido posted...

We don't actually know how Haku feels about Kuon, while Kuon's feelings for him are clearly spelled out.

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Atuy asks Haku and Kuon if they are a couple (the one from Mask of Deception), and he says "no" without a hint of hesitation.

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He did not have to show himself to Kuon, much less leave physical proof that he was there, yet he did.



Introverts like Haku and Kuon tend to form emotional bonds before romantic pursuit, so it's no surprise that he denied the idea when Atuy asked. Kuon also told Rulutieh, right in front of Haku, that she's never had a friend. They both were afraid of assuming the other's feelings about the nature of their awkward relationship.



Subtle moments where Haku is enjoying the quiet comfort of Kuon's company, offering to share his secrets, and his absolute trust in Kuon during the Tuskur invasion are quite significant from the perspective of an introvert. By the time they leave Tuskur in MoD, she is a very significant to him. Haku's reaction to her departure removes any doubt.



Sadly their bond was temporarily severed, and Haku had a mask messing with his mind by the time they met again. Kuon surely took his detached attitude personally, but she never gave up. She finally got his true personality to come back when she started calling him Haku. Suddenly, the parts of his mind that the mask had been suppressing had returned and he couldn't stop thinking about her.



I agree, the epilogue shows that they both still value one another.



Nagido posted...

One thing I particularly like about Kuon is that she has a plethora of interests that have nothing to do with Haku, but at the same time clearly cares for him.

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What I am trying to say by that is that meeting Eruru again, and hesitating to leave, does not mean that Kuon chose her mother over Haku.



Indeed. Kuon was a well-designed character. She has her own family, friends, and interests in her life, and she wants to add Haku to that life rather than making him her life. If she was gunning for Haku 100% of the time, it would just annoy him.



The beauty of the ending is that Haku arranged things so there is no more need to choose Eruruu over Haku. Kuon can have both, though it's unclear if the Haku she gets will be a physical incarnation or just a spirit.



That was a longer post than expected. And I think I derailed the topic somewhat. Sorry about that.



Not at all. Thank you for your contributions. Let's Attack Aggressively! Introverts like Haku and Kuon tend to form emotional bonds before romantic pursuit, so it's no surprise that he denied the idea when Atuy asked. Kuon also told Rulutieh, right in front of Haku, that she's never had a friend. They both were afraid of assuming the other's feelings about the nature of their awkward relationship.Subtle moments where Haku is enjoying the quiet comfort of Kuon's company, offering to share his secrets, and his absolute trust in Kuon during the Tuskur invasion are quite significant from the perspective of an introvert. By the time they leave Tuskur in MoD, she is a very significant to him. Haku's reaction to her departure removes any doubt.Sadly their bond was temporarily severed, and Haku had a mask messing with his mind by the time they met again. Kuon surely took his detached attitude personally, but she never gave up. She finally got his true personality to come back when she started calling him Haku. Suddenly, the parts of his mind that the mask had been suppressing had returned and he couldn't stop thinking about her.I agree, the epilogue shows that they both still value one another.Indeed. Kuon was a well-designed character. She has her own family, friends, and interests in her life, and she wants to add Haku to that life rather than making him her life. If she was gunning for Haku 100% of the time, it would just annoy him.The beauty of the ending is that Haku arranged things so there is no more need to choose Eruruu over Haku. Kuon can have both, though it's unclear if the Haku she gets will be a physical incarnation or just a spirit.Not at all. Thank you for your contributions.

User Info: MazokuXellos MazokuXellos 2 years ago #8 MR_Soren posted...

I do not speak Japanese, but does anybody have a translation for the Inn's name? Hakurokaku? Anyway...



It was probably taken from Hakuowlo's name, the english dub of the original Utawarerumono anime his name was Hakuoro and in the alternative title Utawarerumono: Futari no Hakuoro. If there's a deeper meaning who knows but his name is definitely part of it.



The first kanji in Kakuzu's name (角) stands for kakugyō, the bishop in shogi. My Favorite Anime - The Slayers

Game Franchise - Resident Evil or Disgaea, it's a tough choice It was probably taken from Hakuowlo's name, the english dub of the original Utawarerumono anime his name was Hakuoro and in the alternative title Utawarerumono: Futari no Hakuoro. If there's a deeper meaning who knows but his name is definitely part of it.The first kanji in Kakuzu's name (角) stands for kakugyō, the bishop in shogi.