Tracy Evans says Founders Brewing Co. needs to look within itself and make serious culture changes.

Dave Engbers, the co-founder and president of Founders, says the culture it needs has been in place for all its 22 years.

The racial discrimination lawsuit Evans filed last year against his former employer and Michigan's largest brewery hit a crescendo this week, starting with a leaked deposition that made national headlines Monday and continuing Friday with the popular Founders Detroit taproom closing "until further notice," creating shock waves felt far beyond Michigan's dedicated craft beer community.

As Evans and his lawyer, Jack Schulz, spent time on WDET's airwaves Friday afternoon to discuss the case, Engbers opened up to the Free Press about the tumultuous week. He also talked about where the Grand Rapids-based brewery stands going forward, repeating multiple times that Evans' allegations are unfounded, that Founders is confident it will prevail in the case and maintaining that Founders' principles have remained strong since its opening in 1997.

Update:Founders Brewing diversity and inclusion director Graci Harkema resigns

Dave Engbers: 'None of us are perfect'

The drama ignited Monday, when the Detroit Metro Times first revealed a leaked transcript of a deposition in which Founders Detroit general manager Dominic Ryan, who fired Evans last year, wouldn't say whether he knew Evans is black. He also said he doesn't know whether Barack Obama, Michael Jordan or Kwame Kilpatrick are black because he'd never "met" them.

Engbers said "we were disheartened" to see the deposition leak.

"We're very confident in our case; it is well-documented," he said. "They're going to social media to see if they can escalate this. And it worked. ... It's a hot topic right now. And it's easy for people to read the headline and not read the article to see the substance behind it.

"We know Tracy Evans is African American. We've always known that. I think what we had was a kid who was deposed in hours and hours of deposition and was told not to answer anything unless he was absolutely sure."

As the deposition was covered locally by the Detroit Free Press and others, and as it made national headlines from Washington Post to Newsweek, Founders remained silent. Its main social media accounts had been dormant since Monday afternoon, when it responded to the Metro Times with a statement from its lawyer that was widely criticized. The website also went silent from Monday until Friday morning, when Engbers and co-owner Mike Stevens posted a statement.

In the meantime, the Michigan Brewers Guild confirmed Wednesday that Founders pulled out of its annual Fall Beer Festival this weekend in Detroit's Eastern Market.

Founders spent this week "regrouping," Engbers said. He admitted Founders should've handled its communication in a timelier manner this week — "we had PR firms tell us not to say anything and it doesn’t work, not with social media" — but he said Founders remains the same brand as it was in 1997, when it first opened its doors in Grand Rapids.

"Our company has been based on accepting everybody," he said. "Beer is a conduit that brings people together. It connects people. And it should be positive and should be celebrated."

However, in the lawsuit, Evans alleges that Founders tolerated a "racist internal corporate culture," passed on him for promotions because he's black and that two printers at the Grand Rapids location were electronically labeled the "white guy printer" and "black guy printer." Founders has denied these allegations, though admitted in its response to Evans' lawsuit that two employees used the N-word around Evans and were not immediately fired.

Engbers said 18% of Founders' 600-plus employees self-identify as non-Caucasian: "We celebrate folks from all different backgrounds and ethnicities." When asked how many minorities are part of Founders' management, he said he didn't know.

Since the lawsuit was filed last fall, Founders hired Graci Harkema as director of diversity and inclusion in January, and told customers on social media a month later that the staff was undergoing "sensitivity training."

Engbers said most of the staff has completed that sensitivity training, and has also completed "unconscious bias training, diversity training, inclusion training, authenticity training, LGBTQ and gender identity training" and that "at least once a month, we have (diversity and inclusion) training for new employee orientation."

As for the local Grand Rapids and Detroit communities, Engbers said Founders is looking into community partnerships and will focus on partnering "with the right groups." He said there will be an announcement soon regarding that.

"We continue to work for social equity in this state," he said.

Meanwhile, Dominic Ryan, the manager at the center of the leaked deposition, is still employed by Founders, Engbers said, though he was "removed from his duties" at the Detroit taproom and is taking time off until further notice. Engbers also confirmed one of the employees who used the N-word around Evans is still with the company.

"None of us are perfect," Engbers said. "We all make mistakes. This employee was talked to and we used this as a learning opportunity."

On Friday evening, shortly after this story published, Harkema resigned from her diversity and inclusion post and posted her letter to Founders leadership on social media.

In the letter, Harkema blasted leadership for prioritizing winning a lawsuit over diversity & inclusion efforts: "Your actions have explicitly shown you are more interested in the optics of my face than the impact of my voice." Read the full letter here.

Tracy Evans: 'It was a mess'

Evans has not responded to the Free Press' requests for comment. But he appeared on WDET's "Culture Shift"alongside his attorney, Jack Schulz, on Friday to talk about the lawsuit and what's transpired this week.

Evans, previously a Founders employee in Grand Rapids, came to Detroit as events and promotions manager when the second taproom opened in December 2017. He was hoping for a chance not just with Founders, but to make an impact in Michigan's largest city.

Instead? "It was a mess."

"Nothing went according to plan," Evans told WDET. "And I believe the pressure fell on a lot of people, and things fell through the cracks, so there was never any sort of leadership or guidance into what to do and do these right these things. Not excusable at all.

"Things happened that should not have happened ... the correct course of action was not taken for these things. And here we are."

But Engbers and Founders have insisted Evans "was given every opportunity to succeed at Founders."

Evans paints a different picture of how he was treated. In the lawsuit, Evans alleges he was fired in retaliation for filing complaints to human resources about racist behavior on staff, including the N-word being used around him multiple times. Founders has said Evans was fired for performance reasons.

Evans said it was his mother telling him to "use my voice" that led him to file the lawsuit several months after his firing.

"Most humans, and particularly most people of color, will tell you that they don't have this idea that, 'If I just come forward and say I was discriminated against,' that it's going to work and people are going to believe me and justice is going to do whatever," Evans said. "I saw this as a chance for me to actually use my voice and tell my story, and help others and actually receive some sort of justice."

"When you see that this company is not changing, they're not doing anything to change the culture of what they're doing, even after you gone and left. ... And then you talk to your fellow employees who still work there, who you consider family, and then to almost laugh in your face and say, 'Yeah, you think these things have changed, or would change?' That was enough reason for me to say that I need to stand up, and not only for myself, but for others."

As the outcry reached new heights on social media, several Detroit shops, bars and restaurants pulled Founders products from their taps and shelves in solidarity against discrimination, and local brewery Eastern Market Brewing Co. also pulled out of Fall Beer Festival.

Founders Detroit taproom employees are planning a peaceful protest Saturday morning at the corner of Cass and Charlotte, near Founders' taproom on 435 Charlotte, "to address discrimination against Minorities/LGBTQ+/Women in the workforce."

Founders announced Friday it was closing its Detroit taproom indefinitely, including canceling the planned Saturday release party for its in-demand Canadian Breakfast Stout. It cited safety concerns for its employees, and said they will be paid during the closure. Engbers said no threats against Founders Detroit employees have been documented, saying it's simply a preemptive measure. He also confirmed the taproom will reopen at a later date.

Evans acknowledged on WDET the support he has received from the Detroit community despite being from outside the city. He reiterated that this is about more than a lawsuit.

"This is about getting people to come together and be able to use your voice, and we see that happening," he said. "The love of Detroit has just been shown, and is showing.

"We have a chance to actually change some things and make some things better. And Founders needs to look within inside themselves and inside their organization and make some of those changes."

Spirits of Detroit writer Brian Manzullo covers craft alcohol for the Free Press. Contact him: bmanzullo@freepress.com and on Untappd, bmanzullo and Twitter, @BrianManzullo and @SpiritsofDET.