1 #1 KevinIsPwn newbie.tf 0 Frags – + A Comprehensive List of Everything Wrong with Competitive Arena:Respawn

Feel free to only read the points in bold. If you get confused by anything or you find yourself disagreeing with a point, you can continue reading the unbolded areas. I’m posting this because I’m getting a pretty significant amount of messages from people all caps-ing at me for “dissing on arena respawn” and “[not] giving any reasons as to why [l] hate the format” and "not giving [it] a fair chance". I've basically written this out (though less formatted) to a couple dozen people over the past few weeks, so I figured I’d make a public resource both for my benefit and for anyone else interested in the topic. Unlike a small number of people in this community, I'm willing to try new formats. I've just found through doing that that 6s and HL are (currently) (by far) the best game modes. The majority of high level players that have played arena respawn say that it’s fun, but it isn't a very viable competitive format. A couple weeks ago, I made a tftv post and a video explaining why. The majority of people in the community don’t want to sit down and watch an open player ramble about anything for an hour and twenty minutes, so here’s a comprehensive list of everything wrong with competitive arena respawn in it’s current form. I’m up for adjusting, removing, or adding anything on this list. Feel free to comment or message me if anything confuses you, or you think anything in this post isn't objectively true. In pickup games and TF2 centers, the players have no clue what classes they will be playing (or will even be allowed to play) going into the game.



Sort of going along with #1, the ban system takes time away from playing and puts it into pregame discussions, which may be kind of interesting in matches, but would be frustrating in pick up games/ tf2centers.



In the current formats that are played in tf2center and pugs (Highlander, 6v6, 4v4, Ultiduo, and BBall), the players know exactly what class/ role they will be playing going into the game. In arena respawn, there are no set classes or even role for the players to decide on before they commit half an hour to the game.



This will cause issues when the players actually enter the game. Aside from joining the server and mumble which can take several minutes already, the players will have to break down the strategy to decide who’s able to play what, then ban classes, then decide who will end up playing what. This will take a fair amount of time, and there’s no way every player in any given game will be able to play exactly what they want.



This causes the entry level to be much higher, as players need to have several classes under their belt instead of just one. This may sound simple if you’ve been playing the game for a long time, but competitive should be open to both the players that have been around for years AND the 100 hour pyro mains.



Valve balances weapons off of how they play in 24-slot servers, so shoehorning all 129 unlocks (and effectively 20 stock items) into 5v5 play and expecting it to work out is a terrible idea.



It’s fine that the game is balanced around pubs; that’s where the majority of the playerbase is. But some of the weapons in Team Fortress 2 are inherently flawed when their powers aren’t counteracted by the white noise of 23 other players fighting over a single cart or control point. It kind of works in highlander (18 slots), but anything less is generally not a good idea.



No, valve will not balance tf2 off of how arena respawn games play.



This may seem silly, but I’ve actually heard this argument, so let’s clear that up.



The notion that valve is willing to “fix” unlocks based on how they play in 5v5 is… I don’t even know what to call it. You’ll never get the potential team loadout compilation for a 24-slot game in a 10-slot game, so balancing anything for the smaller game could potentially make the 24-slot pub game less fun and even less balanced.



The inconsistency of the quality of the games is huge.



Not because of matchups, teams, or players. But because the class bans can be so stupid that the game has no redeeming aspects for any of the players. Example: pug on arena_2fort with no soldiers or demos. Yeah the buffed snipers on batts/ wrangled mini sentries/ quickfix heavies sure led to some fantastic TF2!



It sucks though, because the best games of A:R are pretty decent. Fun, even. But those games are pretty rare.



An open whitelist, despite having more weapons, will inevitably shrink the meta.



An open whitelist seems like it would allow for a more diverse spectrum of loadout possibilities. The result of an open whitelist, however, is a meta that revolves around abusing the most broken weapons and constantly switching between the most gimmicky weapons. This, in turn forces a passive and unfun playstyle to both play and spectate.



I see this first-hand in the pick-up games I play in. "Other medic is running quick-fix? Now we have to or we'll get mulched 30 seconds into the round.", "That sniper is running the danger shield, I have to as well.", etc



An open whitelist, despite presenting more weapons to choose from, will inevitably lower the skill ceiling.



If you allow, for example, a gunslinger engineer in the fight to replace a roamer or scout, the skill ceiling is lowered. Over the course of an hour, I could teach my mom (I love you mom) how to W to mid optimally and place a mini sentry then play passive until another mini needed to be placed. She might feel an overwhelming amount of motion sickness, but she will place that minisentry just as well as anyone.



This is obviously an exaggerated example, but it paints a good picture as to why whitelists are good for the skill ceiling of the game.



To some, lowering the skill ceiling sounds like a good thing. But to the vast majority of players that are actually good at the game, this is a terrible idea. Also from a spectators viewpoint, the game is less fun to watch the lower the skill ceiling is.

There are more things, in my eyes, that are bad about the format. I want to keep all subjectivity and personal bias off of this list, though. I may post those somewhere at some point in time. If you have something you feel like I missed, feel free to message me. Also note, I have nothing against pub arena respawn, and the creator of A:R (awk) seems like a pretty decent dude. This direction people want to take his mod, however, isn't very smart. edit: fixed # of unlocks in the game from 124 to 129. i think that's right.

edit 2: added hyperlinks for my original post/ video

edit 3: fixed spelling errors in intro and #6

edit 4: fixed small spelling error in last paragraph of intro [i][size=16][b]A Comprehensive List of Everything Wrong with Competitive Arena:Respawn[/b][/size][/i]

[i]Feel free to only read the points in bold. If you get confused by anything or you find yourself disagreeing with a point, you can continue reading the unbolded areas.[/i]



I’m posting this because I’m getting a pretty significant amount of messages from people all caps-ing at me for “dissing on arena respawn” and “[not] giving any reasons as to why [l] hate the format” and "not giving [it] a fair chance". I've basically written this out (though less formatted) to a couple dozen people over the past few weeks, so I figured I’d make a public resource both for my benefit and for anyone else interested in the topic.



Unlike a small number of people in this community, I'm willing to try new formats. I've just found through doing that that 6s and HL are (currently) (by far) the best game modes.



The majority of high level players that have played arena respawn say that it’s fun, but it isn't a very viable competitive format. A couple weeks ago, I made a [url=http://teamfortress.tv/thread/21841/extv-vlog-the-future/?page=1#380240]tftv post[/url] and [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-1pna1QE0A]a video[/url] explaining why. The majority of people in the community don’t want to sit down and watch an open player ramble about anything for an hour and twenty minutes, so here’s a comprehensive list of everything wrong with competitive arena respawn in it’s current form. I’m up for adjusting, removing, or adding anything on this list. Feel free to comment or message me if anything confuses you, or you think anything in this post isn't objectively true.



[olist]

[*] [b]In pickup games and TF2 centers, the players have no clue what classes they will be playing (or will even be allowed to play) going into the game.[/b]



[*] [b]Sort of going along with #1, the ban system takes time away from playing and puts it into pregame discussions, which may be kind of interesting in matches, but would be frustrating in pick up games/ tf2centers.[/b]



In the current formats that are played in tf2center and pugs (Highlander, 6v6, 4v4, Ultiduo, and BBall), the players know exactly what class/ role they will be playing going into the game. In arena respawn, there are no set classes or even role for the players to decide on before they commit half an hour to the game.



This will cause issues when the players actually enter the game. Aside from joining the server and mumble which can take several minutes already, the players will have to break down the strategy to decide who’s able to play what, then ban classes, then decide who will end up playing what. This will take a fair amount of time, and there’s no way every player in any given game will be able to play exactly what they want.



This causes the entry level to be much higher, as players need to have several classes under their belt instead of just one. This may sound simple if you’ve been playing the game for a long time, but competitive should be open to both the players that have been around for years AND the 100 hour pyro mains.



[*] [b]Valve balances weapons off of how they play in 24-slot servers, so shoehorning all 129 unlocks (and effectively 20 stock items) into 5v5 play and expecting it to work out is a terrible idea.[/b]



It’s fine that the game is balanced around pubs; that’s where the majority of the playerbase is. But some of the weapons in Team Fortress 2 are inherently flawed when their powers aren’t counteracted by the white noise of 23 other players fighting over a single cart or control point. It kind of works in highlander (18 slots), but anything less is generally not a good idea.



[*] [b]No, valve will not balance tf2 off of how arena respawn games play.[/b]



This may seem silly, but I’ve actually heard this argument, so let’s clear that up.



The notion that valve is willing to “fix” unlocks based on how they play in 5v5 is… I don’t even know what to call it. You’ll never get the potential team loadout compilation for a 24-slot game in a 10-slot game, so balancing anything for the smaller game could potentially make the 24-slot pub game less fun and even less balanced.



[*] [b]The inconsistency of the quality of the games is huge.[/b]



Not because of matchups, teams, or players. But because the class bans can be so stupid that the game has no redeeming aspects for any of the players. Example: pug on arena_2fort with no soldiers or demos. Yeah the buffed snipers on batts/ wrangled mini sentries/ quickfix heavies sure led to some fantastic TF2!



It sucks though, because the best games of A:R are pretty decent. Fun, even. But those games are pretty rare.



[*] [b]An open whitelist, despite having more weapons, will inevitably shrink the meta.[/b]



An open whitelist seems like it would allow for a more diverse spectrum of loadout possibilities. The result of an open whitelist, however, is a meta that revolves around abusing the most broken weapons and constantly switching between the most gimmicky weapons. This, in turn forces a passive and unfun playstyle to both play and spectate.



I see this first-hand in the pick-up games I play in. "Other medic is running quick-fix? Now we have to or we'll get mulched 30 seconds into the round.", "That sniper is running the danger shield, I have to as well.", etc



[*] [b]An open whitelist, despite presenting more weapons to choose from, will inevitably lower the skill ceiling.[/b]



If you allow, for example, a gunslinger engineer in the fight to replace a roamer or scout, the skill ceiling is lowered. Over the course of an hour, I could teach my mom (I love you mom) how to W to mid optimally and place a mini sentry then play passive until another mini needed to be placed. She might feel an overwhelming amount of motion sickness, but she will place that minisentry just as well as anyone.



This is obviously an exaggerated example, but it paints a good picture as to why whitelists are good for the skill ceiling of the game.



To some, lowering the skill ceiling sounds like a good thing. But to the vast majority of players that are actually good at the game, this is a terrible idea. Also from a spectators viewpoint, the game is less fun to watch the lower the skill ceiling is.

[/olist]

[b]There are more things, in my eyes, that are bad about the format. I want to keep all subjectivity and personal bias off of this list, though.[/b] I may post those somewhere at some point in time.



[b]If you have something you feel like I missed, feel free to message me.[/b]



Also note, I have nothing against pub arena respawn, and the creator of A:R (awk) seems like a pretty decent dude. This direction people want to take his mod, however, isn't very smart.



[size=10]edit: fixed # of unlocks in the game from 124 to 129. i think that's right.

edit 2: added hyperlinks for my original post/ video

edit 3: fixed spelling errors in intro and #6

edit 4: fixed small spelling error in last paragraph of intro[/size]

2 #2 KevinIsPwn newbie.tf 17 Frags – + <reserved just in case> <reserved just in case>

3 #3 Crayboff 4 Frags – + Is your criticism about the gametype or the lack of a solid support structure around it? Tools like TF2center and other pug sites/IRCs have had several years to develop a convenient interface for separate tools to make the gametype more accessible. It just seems to me a bit unfair to criticize the gametype itself for not being popular enough for someone to come up with a convenient UI to set up an A:R pug. Things like people not knowing what classes they're going to play without a pre-game discussion comes from a solid meta not existing yet. 6's allows players to play any class in the game, but a long standing and refined meta makes the game a bit more predictable. Given enough time and playing, A:R will undoubtedly find its meta that people can rely on. I understand your criticism of the whitelist, but even when you do have whitelists you still have a pretty limited set of what you can play. In 6's, most soldiers are going to be running the gunboats and never switch off of it. Scouts will just about always run the same loadouts. Demo runs stock. I dunno, I just think your criticism is more about the A:R meta not being well flushed out than it is with the gametype itself. Edit: Reworked my argument from a point-by-point criticism to a general one that's easier to read. Is your criticism about the gametype or the lack of a solid support structure around it? Tools like TF2center and other pug sites/IRCs have had several years to develop a convenient interface for separate tools to make the gametype more accessible. It just seems to me a bit unfair to criticize the gametype itself for not being popular enough for someone to come up with a convenient UI to set up an A:R pug.



Things like people not knowing what classes they're going to play without a pre-game discussion comes from a solid meta not existing yet. 6's allows players to play any class in the game, but a long standing and refined meta makes the game a bit more predictable. Given enough time and playing, A:R will undoubtedly find its meta that people can rely on.



I understand your criticism of the whitelist, but even when you do have whitelists you still have a pretty limited set of what you can play. In 6's, most soldiers are going to be running the gunboats and never switch off of it. Scouts will just about always run the same loadouts. Demo runs stock.



I dunno, I just think your criticism is more about the A:R meta not being well flushed out than it is with the gametype itself.



Edit: Reworked my argument from a point-by-point criticism to a general one that's easier to read.

4 #4 sola -18 Frags – + Oh boy been waiting for this http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/stewart.gif Oh boy been waiting for this http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/stewart.gif

5 #5 Goobledegak 2 Frags – + I completely agree with your assessments. I think that if it was introduced earlier into the game, Arena Respawn could have some potential to grow, experiment, expand and fix some of its current gameplay issues. But I don't think what's best for competitive is to be pushing a completely new game mode 7 years into its existence. I think we should try and work with what we've got. I completely agree with your assessments. I think that if it was introduced earlier into the game, Arena Respawn could have some potential to grow, experiment, expand and fix some of its current gameplay issues. But I don't think what's best for competitive is to be pushing a completely new game mode 7 years into its existence. I think we should try and work with what we've got.

6 #6 Forefather 5 Frags – + Another reason: We already have a bunch of competitive formats and we don't need another Do any other competitive games even have 5 different competitive modes? Another reason: We already have a bunch of competitive formats and we don't need another



Do any other competitive games even have 5 different competitive modes?

7 #7 Munch 26 Frags – + I don't know why anyone thinks class bans in tf2 is a good idea. It works in dota because you're banning 10 heroes out of 100+ where in this you're banning 2 classes out of 9. This significantly limits the player's possibilities in tf2 because every individual class has a unique role. In dota there's always going to be carries, supports, junglers, and offlaners. Because of the massive hero pool, any player would need to be proficient with multiple heroes, and doing so isn't too difficult because many heroes fall into similar roles and can be played similarly to others as long as you keep in mind the unique quirks the different heroes have. A team can't simply just ban all of one role (and doing so would be fucking stupid anyways). This ties into Kevin's first point, in comp A:R nobody is going to know what they're going to be doing before the game starts because of this forced class ban phase, again this isn't a problem in dota because while players don't know what specific hero they're going to play, they almost always know what ROLE they're going to be playing before the match starts. That's why it works, that's why the pick/ban phase in dota is interesting, you know what roles the players are most likely going to play before the match starts, you just don't know what heroes they're going to use to do it. TF2 doesn't have any of these qualities, in A:R all you have to look at is "What player is going to be the biggest threat on their main class? Ok let's ban that one." Bam, you've effectively fucked over one person and probably made the game extremely less fun, also you're taking variety out of the game because you've removed a unique role from the match entirely. Please stop trying to apply competitive dota mechanics into tf2, they are different games, they don't translate over well and they never will. I don't know why anyone thinks class bans in tf2 is a good idea. It works in dota because you're banning 10 heroes out of 100+ where in this you're banning 2 classes out of 9. This significantly limits the player's possibilities in tf2 because every individual class has a unique role. In dota there's always going to be carries, supports, junglers, and offlaners. Because of the massive hero pool, any player would need to be proficient with multiple heroes, and doing so isn't too difficult because many heroes fall into similar roles and can be played similarly to others as long as you keep in mind the unique quirks the different heroes have. A team can't simply just ban all of one role (and doing so would be fucking stupid anyways). This ties into Kevin's first point, in comp A:R nobody is going to know what they're going to be doing before the game starts because of this forced class ban phase, again this isn't a problem in dota because while players don't know what specific hero they're going to play, they almost always know what ROLE they're going to be playing before the match starts. That's why it works, that's why the pick/ban phase in dota is interesting, you know what roles the players are most likely going to play before the match starts, you just don't know what heroes they're going to use to do it.



TF2 doesn't have any of these qualities, in A:R all you have to look at is "What player is going to be the biggest threat on their main class? Ok let's ban that one." Bam, you've effectively fucked over one person and probably made the game extremely less fun, also you're taking variety out of the game because you've removed a unique role from the match entirely. Please stop trying to apply competitive dota mechanics into tf2, they are different games, they don't translate over well and they never will.

8 #8 lvl4 3 Frags – + Forefather Another reason: We already have a bunch of competitive formats and we don't need another



Do any other competitive games even have 5 different competitive modes? not at all a good justification you're implying that 6s and HL and 4s have any more reason or right to be played over A:R that is inherent, and not because they are better formats. Following your example, if a perfect game mode existed, we shouldn't play it because 6s and HL already exist and it will just divide the game more and class bans are gimmicky as fuck, tbh the game mode would be more approachable and funner without it

its basically 4s tho [quote=Forefather]Another reason: We already have a bunch of competitive formats and we don't need another



Do any other competitive games even have 5 different competitive modes?[/quote]

not at all a good justification



you're implying that 6s and HL and 4s have any more reason or right to be played over A:R that is inherent, and not because they are better formats. Following your example, if a perfect game mode existed, we shouldn't play it because 6s and HL already exist and it will just divide the game more



and class bans are gimmicky as fuck, tbh the game mode would be more approachable and funner without it

its basically 4s tho

9 #9 flame 51 Frags – + KevinIsPwn while I admire the wall of text and the legitimacy of your post/thought processes, the response to this is going to be a simple 'YAOOO' and an overly basic post littered with capital Xes KevinIsPwn while I admire the wall of text and the legitimacy of your post/thought processes, the response to this is going to be a simple 'YAOOO' and an overly basic post littered with capital Xes

10 #10 yungsally -21 Frags – + actually nobody cares why do people keep posting huge paragraphs about shit that doesn't matter. you're not swaying anybody away from w/e your paragraphs are about because nobody was gonna play that shit anyways. actually nobody cares why do people keep posting huge paragraphs about shit that doesn't matter. you're not swaying anybody away from w/e your paragraphs are about because nobody was gonna play that shit anyways.

11 #11 sola 9 Frags – + Saltysally1 actually nobody cares why do people keep posting huge paragraphs about shit that doesn't matter. you're not swaying anybody away from w/e your paragraphs are about because nobody was gonna play that shit anyways. salty lives up to his name [quote=Saltysally1]actually nobody cares why do people keep posting huge paragraphs about shit that doesn't matter. you're not swaying anybody away from w/e your paragraphs are about because nobody was gonna play that shit anyways.[/quote]

salty lives up to his name

12 #12 Teapot_ 23 Frags – + I've always thought that A:R only does class bans just for the sake of it/because it works in other games, rather than a well thought out reasoning for why it is needed and would work in tf2. I've always thought that A:R only does class bans just for the sake of it/because it works in other games, rather than a well thought out reasoning for why it is needed and would work in tf2.

13 #13 Dr_Djones 3 Frags – + A:R with weapon bans and all the different 5v5 class configurations is like if normal competitive dota relied on random heros w/ random skills. Too gimmicky and good luck trying to pug. A:R with weapon bans and all the different 5v5 class configurations is like if normal competitive dota relied on random heros w/ random skills.



Too gimmicky and good luck trying to pug.

14 #14 Munch 6 Frags – + Teapot_ I've always thought that A:R only does class bans just for the sake of it/because it works in other games, rather than a well thought out reasoning for why it is needed and would work in tf2. There really isn't a good reason for it. The only reason that's ever been given for it is "Well dota does it and dota is popular so obviously this would make tf2 more popular/interesting." There's no other valid gameplay enhancing reason for it. Even Robin Walker himself has only ever given this reasoning to include pick/ban in a competitive TF2 format. There's absolutely no merit for it and pick/ban is never going to work in tf2 or make it more interesting. Not for classes or weapons. [quote=Teapot_]I've always thought that A:R only does class bans just for the sake of it/because it works in other games, rather than a well thought out reasoning for why it is needed and would work in tf2.[/quote]

There really isn't a good reason for it. The only reason that's ever been given for it is "Well dota does it and dota is popular so obviously this would make tf2 more popular/interesting." There's no other valid gameplay enhancing reason for it. Even Robin Walker himself has only ever given this reasoning to include pick/ban in a competitive TF2 format. There's absolutely no merit for it and pick/ban is never going to work in tf2 or make it more interesting. Not for classes or weapons.

15 #15 edy 4 Frags – + I don't get why class bans would never be a thing considering you have people like mustardoverlord who put 10k hours in one class. I mean that was a joke, but there are a lot of people that only main one class and if they're forced to play something out of their comfort zone they'll just not be as effective/not have fun. Bans and shit work in dota because like what other people said, there are 100+ heroes so sure a team can ban a rubick or wisp, but your team can still give you venge,skywrath,es,or one of the other 20 supports and that example works with literally every role. Where as in tf2 if a team bans a scout and you main it, it's like what the fuck an entire class that you put hundreds of hours into just got banned. Why comp A:R would ever be a serious game mode is beyond me. I don't get why class bans would never be a thing considering you have people like mustardoverlord who put 10k hours in one class. I mean that was a joke, but there are a lot of people that only main one class and if they're forced to play something out of their comfort zone they'll just not be as effective/not have fun. Bans and shit work in dota because like what other people said, there are 100+ heroes so sure a team can ban a rubick or wisp, but your team can still give you venge,skywrath,es,or one of the other 20 supports and that example works with literally every role. Where as in tf2 if a team bans a scout and you main it, it's like what the fuck an entire class that you put hundreds of hours into just got banned. Why comp A:R would ever be a serious game mode is beyond me.

16 #16 jdm 2 Frags – + I don't like it because its not fun, and I don't think there is really any point in arguing why. I don't think there are really any redeeming qualities for this game mode other than that 5 players is a reasonable amount. Maybe I'm dead wrong and the meta will change drastically so it isn't even played arena style tl;dr I hate arena I don't like it because its not fun, and I don't think there is really any point in arguing why. I don't think there are really any redeeming qualities for this game mode other than that 5 players is a reasonable amount.



Maybe I'm dead wrong and the meta will change drastically so it isn't even played arena style



tl;dr I hate arena

17 #17 cage- 1 Frags – + But Kevin, you forgot about pro battle league But Kevin, you forgot about pro battle league

18 #18 tsc 3 Frags – + The main problem that I've always seen is that TF2 doesn't have a perfect correspondence with Dota to justify a pick/ban system with classes or weapons. In TF2, the meta heavily revolves around classes while the game's balance is more dependent upon weapons, but in Dota, both revolve around heroes. Thus, a Dota-style pick/ban system in TF2 will not work as well because there's no perfect correspondence to the role that heroes play. In this regard, TF2 more closely corresponds to CS, where the game's variety revolves around maps with all else being mostly equal. You wouldn't have a system where you would pick or ban weapons in CS, but you do have a system where you pick and ban maps, and that system already works well with TF2. How exactly will substituting a class or weapon pick/ban system for the current map pick/ban system solve more problems than it creates? The main problem that I've always seen is that TF2 doesn't have a perfect correspondence with Dota to justify a pick/ban system with classes or weapons. In TF2, the meta heavily revolves around classes while the game's balance is more dependent upon weapons, but in Dota, both revolve around heroes. Thus, a Dota-style pick/ban system in TF2 will not work as well because there's no perfect correspondence to the role that heroes play.



In this regard, TF2 more closely corresponds to CS, where the game's variety revolves around maps with all else being mostly equal. You wouldn't have a system where you would pick or ban weapons in CS, but you do have a system where you pick and ban maps, and that system already works well with TF2. How exactly will substituting a class or weapon pick/ban system for the current map pick/ban system solve more problems than it creates?

19 #19 Brock 4 Frags – + Pick/ban weapon system would just alienate players more from the mode. No re-spawn already freaks out the casuals/new players enough as it is. Pick/ban weapon system would just alienate players more from the mode. No re-spawn already freaks out the casuals/new players enough as it is.

20 #20 GentlemanJon 1 Frags – + thesupremecommander In this regard, TF2 more closely corresponds to CS, where the game's variety revolves around maps with all else being mostly equal. You wouldn't have a system where you would pick or ban weapons in CS, but you do have a system where you pick and ban maps, and that system already works well with TF2. How exactly will substituting a class or weapon pick/ban system for the current map pick/ban system solve more problems than it creates? I'd take issue with this apart from the maps, CS's variety revolves around the weapon buying choices teams make from round to round, and TF2 has classes with very varied abilities before you even take into account their weapon selection which is a completely different set of mechanics. They are different enough that no single approach made in one game would work in another. TF2 already bans weapons (the weapon pick/ban suggestion merely posits making that potentially variable) and TF2 already restricts classes, so both mechanisms are already in place in some form or another and they both work. [quote=thesupremecommander]In this regard, TF2 more closely corresponds to CS, where the game's variety revolves around maps with all else being mostly equal. You wouldn't have a system where you would pick or ban weapons in CS, but you do have a system where you pick and ban maps, and that system already works well with TF2. How exactly will substituting a class or weapon pick/ban system for the current map pick/ban system solve more problems than it creates?[/quote]

I'd take issue with this apart from the maps, CS's variety revolves around the weapon buying choices teams make from round to round, and TF2 has classes with very varied abilities before you even take into account their weapon selection which is a completely different set of mechanics. They are different enough that no single approach made in one game would work in another.



TF2 already bans weapons (the weapon pick/ban suggestion merely posits making that potentially variable) and TF2 already restricts classes, so both mechanisms are already in place in some form or another and they both work.

21 #21 tsc 1 Frags – + GentlemanJon thesupremecommander In this regard, TF2 more closely corresponds to CS, where the game's variety revolves around maps with all else being mostly equal. You wouldn't have a system where you would pick or ban weapons in CS, but you do have a system where you pick and ban maps, and that system already works well with TF2. How exactly will substituting a class or weapon pick/ban system for the current map pick/ban system solve more problems than it creates? I'd take issue with this apart from the maps, CS's variety revolves around the weapon buying choices teams make from round to round, and TF2 has classes with very varied abilities before you even take into account their weapon selection which is a completely different set of mechanics. They are different enough that no single approach made in one game would work in another.



TF2 already bans weapons (the weapon pick/ban suggestion merely posits making that potentially variable) and TF2 already restricts classes, so both mechanisms are already in place in some form or another and they both work. When I was referring to all else being equal, I meant that every map is played with the same set of rules - the AWP won't be allowed in one match and banned in another (but is limited by its high cost), and similarly the soldier won't be allowed in one match and banned in another (but is limited to two per side). Obviously the games are played differently, but the ruleset stays consistent across maps, and map selection in both plays a significant part in determining the course of a match. As for class/weapon restrictions, certainly, but my point is that it's not a part of active team strategy, and whatever is done is part of an attempt to further balance the game, not as an attempt to add strategic complexity. [quote=GentlemanJon][quote=thesupremecommander]In this regard, TF2 more closely corresponds to CS, where the game's variety revolves around maps with all else being mostly equal. You wouldn't have a system where you would pick or ban weapons in CS, but you do have a system where you pick and ban maps, and that system already works well with TF2. How exactly will substituting a class or weapon pick/ban system for the current map pick/ban system solve more problems than it creates?[/quote]

I'd take issue with this apart from the maps, CS's variety revolves around the weapon buying choices teams make from round to round, and TF2 has classes with very varied abilities before you even take into account their weapon selection which is a completely different set of mechanics. They are different enough that no single approach made in one game would work in another.



TF2 already bans weapons (the weapon pick/ban suggestion merely posits making that potentially variable) and TF2 already restricts classes, so both mechanisms are already in place in some form or another and they both work.[/quote]

When I was referring to all else being equal, I meant that every map is played with the same set of rules - the AWP won't be allowed in one match and banned in another (but is limited by its high cost), and similarly the soldier won't be allowed in one match and banned in another (but is limited to two per side). Obviously the games are played differently, but the ruleset stays consistent across maps, and map selection in both plays a significant part in determining the course of a match.



As for class/weapon restrictions, certainly, but my point is that it's not a part of active team strategy, and whatever is done is part of an attempt to further balance the game, not as an attempt to add strategic complexity.

22 #22 gandhi -1 Frags – + in its current form* in its current form*

23 #23 DrPloxo 11 Frags – + Valve balances weapons off of how they play in 24-slot servers. I am actually sick of this statement. They are balanced to allow viability of each class against all other classes when a hard counter may not exist.

The weapons are "balanced" in that method because there aren't class limits, player limits or anything like that. So no, they aren't balanced to 24-slot servers, they aren't balanced to any specific criteria, at all. There is no reason to believe anything else. [quote] Valve balances weapons off of how they play in 24-slot servers. [/quote]



I am actually sick of this statement. They are balanced to allow viability of each class against all other classes when a hard counter may not exist.

The weapons are "balanced" in that method because there aren't class limits, player limits or anything like that. So no, they aren't balanced to 24-slot servers, they aren't balanced to any specific criteria, at all. There is no reason to believe anything else.

24 #24 lvl4 2 Frags – + DrPloxo Valve balances weapons off of how they play in 24-slot servers.

I am actually sick of this statement. They are balanced to allow viability of each class against all other classes when a hard counter may not exist.

The weapons are "balanced" in that method because there aren't class limits, player limits or anything like that. So no, they aren't balanced to 24-slot servers, they aren't balanced to any specific criteria, at all. There is no reason to believe anything else. Gunslinger

wrangler

stickies

scout

spy very little in this game scales well with player count [quote=DrPloxo][quote] Valve balances weapons off of how they play in 24-slot servers. [/quote]



I am actually sick of this statement. They are balanced to allow viability of each class against all other classes when a hard counter may not exist.

The weapons are "balanced" in that method because there aren't class limits, player limits or anything like that. So no, they aren't balanced to 24-slot servers, they aren't balanced to any specific criteria, at all. There is no reason to believe anything else.[/quote]

Gunslinger

wrangler

stickies

scout

spy



very little in this game scales well with player count

25 #25 conductor 30 Frags – + i'm pretty sure there's literally nobody who wants to play arena respawn that isn't named extine anyways i'm pretty sure there's literally nobody who wants to play arena respawn that isn't named extine anyways

26 #26 smobo 13 Frags – + let's just all call it "Diarrhena: Respawn" until the nickname gets so popular they're forced to abandon it let's just all call it "Diarrhena: Respawn" until the nickname gets so popular they're forced to abandon it

27 #27 KevinIsPwn newbie.tf 5 Frags – + DrPloxo The weapons are "balanced" in that method because there aren't class limits, player limits or anything like that. So no, they aren't balanced to 24-slot servers, they aren't balanced to any specific criteria, at all. There is no reason to believe anything else. That's basically what I'm saying with this statement though: "But some of the weapons in Team Fortress 2 are inherently flawed when their powers aren’t counteracted by the white noise of 23 other players fighting over a single cart or control point." When I say that the weapons are balanced for 24-slot servers, I mean that there isn't a huge amount of inter-class balance and meta-game thought by valve. [quote=DrPloxo]The weapons are "balanced" in that method because there aren't class limits, player limits or anything like that. So no, they aren't balanced to 24-slot servers, they aren't balanced to any specific criteria, at all. There is no reason to believe anything else.[/quote]



That's basically what I'm saying with this statement though: "But some of the weapons in Team Fortress 2 are inherently flawed when their powers aren’t counteracted by the white noise of 23 other players fighting over a single cart or control point."



When I say that the weapons are balanced for 24-slot servers, I mean that there isn't a huge amount of inter-class balance and meta-game thought by valve.

28 #28 Radman 2 Frags – + Reading through this list, a lot of the complaints are about certain classes or weapons being unfun. Are these just weapons that are passive/discourage aggression? What exactly makes them unfun? Reading through this list, a lot of the complaints are about certain classes or weapons being unfun. Are these just weapons that are passive/discourage aggression? What exactly makes them unfun?

29 #29 DrPloxo -2 Frags – + lvl4 Gunslinger

wrangler

stickies

scout

spy



very little in this game scales well with player count Gunslinger and wrangler make an otherwise slow, set-up dependent scout able to compete with the faster classes.

Stickies are only awful when in the hands of somebody good, otherwise they're just a nuisance. Scout is by far the best class, which is why a lot of the more imbalanced weapons (read gunslinger) have seen very little re-balancing. And spy 1v1 is pretty silly, but not unfeasible with unlocks (ambi and enforcer come to mind).

Like, 1v1 none of these things are specifically incredible barring stickies and scouts. And only in a chaotic situations like a pub do they get frustrating enough to complain about. MGE with a mini would be pretty crappy if your'e a scout, but definitely not unbeatable. KevinIsPwn That's basically what I'm saying with this statement though: "But some of the weapons in Team Fortress 2 are inherently flawed when their powers aren’t counteracted by the white noise of 23 other players fighting over a single cart or control point."



When I say that the weapons are balanced for 24-slot servers, I mean that there isn't a huge amount of inter-class balance and meta-game thought by valve. Inter-class balance is just the thing though, every class keeps getting unlocks to be at the level of scout/demo/solly. SC wouldn't exist if demo weren't incredible, gunslinger to scouts, wrangler to soldiers; it's a matter of reaching the level of the classes that actually do dominate the metagame. Similarly, spy gets a shitload of crutches because it depends on others to be more effective, but also because 1v1, it's trash without the unlocks.

Everything is balanced to make 6's classes less dominant in both 1v1 and 16v16. It doesn't scale well, but it's an attempt. [quote=lvl4]

Gunslinger

wrangler

stickies

scout

spy



very little in this game scales well with player count[/quote]

Gunslinger and wrangler make an otherwise slow, set-up dependent scout able to compete with the faster classes.

Stickies are only awful when in the hands of somebody good, otherwise they're just a nuisance. Scout is by far the best class, which is why a lot of the more imbalanced weapons (read gunslinger) have seen very little re-balancing. And spy 1v1 is pretty silly, but not unfeasible with unlocks (ambi and enforcer come to mind).

Like, 1v1 none of these things are specifically incredible barring stickies and scouts. And only in a chaotic situations like a pub do they get frustrating enough to complain about. MGE with a mini would be pretty crappy if your'e a scout, but definitely not unbeatable.



[quote=KevinIsPwn]

That's basically what I'm saying with this statement though: "But some of the weapons in Team Fortress 2 are inherently flawed when their powers aren’t counteracted by the white noise of 23 other players fighting over a single cart or control point."



When I say that the weapons are balanced for 24-slot servers, I mean that there isn't a huge amount of inter-class balance and meta-game thought by valve.[/quote]

Inter-class balance is just the thing though, every class keeps getting unlocks to be at the level of scout/demo/solly. SC wouldn't exist if demo weren't incredible, gunslinger to scouts, wrangler to soldiers; it's a matter of reaching the level of the classes that actually do dominate the metagame. Similarly, spy gets a shitload of crutches because it depends on others to be more effective, but also because 1v1, it's trash without the unlocks.

Everything is balanced to make 6's classes less dominant in both 1v1 and 16v16. It doesn't scale well, but it's an attempt.