LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: American whistleblower Edward Snowden is on the run to Ecuador, hoping to avoid the long arm of the United States Government.

The 30-year-old has admitted leaking details of the extensive surveillance activities of America's national security agency.

The US has charged him with various espionage-related counts and Mr Snowden's presence, first in Hong Kong and now in Russia, is causing diplomatic ructions.

Ecuador has offered the American asylum, as it has done for another high-profile whistleblower, Australian Julian Assange.

Seven Americans have faced espionage charges under the Obama administration and one of those is Thomas Drake, who like Snowden worked for the NSA. He joined 7.30 from Washington.

Mr Drake, if Mr Snowden arrives in a country like Ecuador that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the United States, does that mean that he's entirely safe from being returned to the US?

THOMAS DRAKE, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY WHISTLEBLOWER: I think it makes it much more difficult for the US to seek his return, given there is no formal extradition treaty per se. And Ecuador is - under the ALBA agreements, they pride themselves on taking a stance against kinda the imperial tendencies of their large northern neighbour.

LEIGH SALES: In a nutshell, explain for my audience what you were charged with and what the outcome was.

THOMAS DRAKE: I blew the whistle on massive fraud, waste and abuse in the multi-billions of dollars. I also blew the whistle with two 9/11 congressional investigations with respect to the secret surveillance program, which is really the foundation, the set of foundation programs that Snowden disclosed in terms of actual documents that we now see revealed. I was charged in a 10 felony count indictment facing 35 years in prison - five under the Espionage Act, one for obstruction of justice and four for making false statements.

LEIGH SALES: And what happened with those charges?

THOMAS DRAKE: Their case ultimately collapsed under the weight of truth, also in the court of public opinion, and I ultimately prevailed and was able to keep my freedom.

LEIGH SALES: Well not everybody thinks Edward Snowden did the right thing. I presume you do?

THOMAS DRAKE: I consider Edward Snowden a whistleblower. I know some have called him a hero, some have called him a traitor. I focus on what he disclosed. I don't focus on him as a person. He did have a belief that what he was exposed to, US actions in secret were violating privacy and human rights on a very, very large scale far beyond anything that had been admitted to date by the Government. And so in the public interest, he made that available.

LEIGH SALES: What do you say to the argument advanced by those with the opposite viewpoint to you, especially in the US Congress and in the White House, that Edward Snowden is a traitor who made a narcissistic decision that he personally had a right to decide what classified information should be in the public domain?

THOMAS DRAKE: That's a Government meme, it's a Government cover, it's a Government story. The Government is desperate to not deal with the actual disclosures, the contents of those disclosures, because they do reveal a vast, systemic, institutionalised industrial-scale Leviathan surveillance system that has clearly gone far beyond the original mandate to deal with terrorism - far beyond.

LEIGH SALES: Is it fair to say though that governments and their militaries and their intelligence services and their diplomatic arms require a degree of secrecy if they're to be effective?

THOMAS DRAKE: Yes. I was in the system for many, many years. I'm the first to tell you, as Daniel Ellsberg himself has said more recently, there are secrets - very, very few, but there are secrets worth keeping. Troop movements, nuclear secrets - things of that nature. What we're seeing here though is secret law, secret rules, secret programs that have been removed from any form of public debate.

LEIGH SALES: Somebody who works for a security agency and leaks classified information would be well aware that that is a serious crime that attracts a serious penalty, regardless of whether history judges that that leak was in the public interest. Therefore does Edward Snowden have any right to plead for leniency?

THOMAS DRAKE: Well, you know, we'll see how things develop (inaudible) plead for leniency. He's outside the US and that does give him some advantages in terms of the long arm of "US justice". I believe he committed a magnificent act of civil disobedience. He knew full well what risk he was taking. And he knew that he was potentially sacrificing his own safety, his own well-being and ultimately even putting his entire personal freedom at risk in disclosing top secret information regarding surveillance programs conducted by the United States Government.

LEIGH SALES: But if everybody acted like that, wouldn't the entire system crumble?

THOMAS DRAKE: Well, the system's outta control. I mean, amount of information - this is what's happening. Not only the amount of information that's continually classified, but also the number of people that have access to that classified information, it's in the millions now. It's in the millions. If Americans only knew the extent to which the executive branch has secretly interpreted even the legislation that was passed and signed into law by the President, they'd be angry and very upset. Well, we're now starting to see the contours of that.

LEIGH SALES: As somebody who's been through it, what's your advice to Edward Snowden?

THOMAS DRAKE: Well, I - I very much feel for him and, I mean, one of the things that happens - I mean, he's escaped from a very secret system and he's outside the US and so all of his natural allies, support structure, family, is not there. He fundamentally has to rely and trust on those who understand what he's going through and what he's been. So, the lawyers, the advocates, the activists, the diplomats - I mean, this has become a world event. And you're seeing someone who made a very, very fateful decision to share what he knew about the inside goings-on of the surveillance state with the world.

LEIGH SALES: Thomas Drake, thanks for joining us.

THOMAS DRAKE: Thanks for having me.