[HotS] The Hero League Dilemma Text by TL.net ESPORTS



The Hero League Dilemma And the Problem with Educating the Player Base



Written by: SlapJack



Season 1 of Hero League in 2018 had a plethora of problems. People got placed into a wrong division, whether it was up or down, resulting in several ladder resets to fix the problem. Performance Based Matchmaking (PBM) was even disabled to ensure matchmaking was more precise.



Toward the end of the season, several highly ranked players noticed that they always got a negative personal rank adjustment,



For the second season of 2018, Blizzard announced that the



Despite all the effort to improve the experience in ranked play, discussions on Twitter and Reddit began cropping up on the poor match quality at higher ranks. Across the board, it seemed that there were far too many players in the upper divisions with poor game knowledge and/or mechanics. Was it the result of matchmaking mishaps? Even if it were, how could the system right itself?



Tweets from



Of course, this isn’t a new problem. The statement, that the player base knowledge is nowhere near where it should be, was made often times in the past by several pro players. The only difference is that now skill divisions have been jumbled beyond recognition and more games than ever are uneven. The questions that remain are: why it is still a problem, and how do we fix it?





Education with guides







According to Reddit and other popular discussion boards, there is very little educational content available for Heroes of the Storm players, especially from pro players. It’s a poor substitute to rely on progamers who spend most of their time practicing and resting, but even so, the occasional guide by a pro player does get made. Many pro players also provide educational content on their streams by showing how and why they do things and answering questions.



Beside the pro players are tons of content creators out there who publish educational content—even Blizzard’s editorial team did a



There is some visibility though. Most of the guides get promoted by known organizations and pages in the scene and are posted on Reddit to get some attention. The content doesn’t reach the entire Heroes of the Storm population, but theoretically it should reach enough to make a difference and to make it easy enough to find educational content for players that are looking for them.





So why is game knowledge still a problem?



The problem is not the number of guides and the availability of them, it’s simply the fact that the player base doesn’t need them. It’s not because they know everything, they just don’t need guides and educational content to help them achieve their goals.







Blizzard recently confirmed that the ideal distribution of players in Hero League is



While this is a nice touch for players, it certainly doesn’t help to improve the player base knowledge. In fact, this does the opposite. People who feel good with their rank and with what they achieved don’t have the desire to improve themselves and therefore no interest in reading guides or watching videos or pro play. Some even just come back to the game for the new season, play a few games, and then stop until the next season to farm the rewards.



This is especially a problem for the higher ranks in Hero League. Players in Master league can play their ten placement matches and stay in Master league season after season. Even players who just continuously play hero league have a good chance to remain in their rank or even be promoted due to the grind nature of Hero League and the constant teammate roulette. The problem therefore is not the lack of guides and their availability and visibility but rather the fact that there is no need to improve for most players since they get everything they want.





How to solve this problem?



This is a hard question and it’s not easy to answer. One thing requested several times, even by pros, is to change how the placement matches work.



In the first few seasons of Hero League, the rank after placements was capped to Diamond 3 at highest. This would result in Master, Grandmaster, and Diamond 1-3 players getting mixed together into games and generating uneven and unfun games for everyone. In 2017’s Season 3, the cap was raised to 1000 point Master. The idea was to reduce the difference in ranks each game, but it also made it possible for players who had never reached Master league to inexplicably place higher than they ever had.





Placement matches need an overhaul, not the rankings







The players with the highest MMR can place in Diamond 3 if they win all placement matches or place all the way down in Diamond 5 if they lose all of them. Everyone else gets compressed accordingly, meaning that a Platinum 1 player would drop to mid-Platinum, bottom tier Platinum players would drop to Gold, and so on. A compression would enable fairer matchmaking by pushing average players out of the top ranks into the middle of the curve in Silver, Gold, and Platinum leagues. It also would give every player a challenge and a reason to play and grind Hero League, to prove that they are still able to reach their rank. Instead of immediately ranking up to the highest possible rank, players would be forced to play a set number of games. As a result, rankings would normalize.



To give the players enough time to play and climb the ladder, increasing the duration of the seasons to at least 6 month is recommended. The number of placement matches should also be increased to 15 or 20 matches to give the matchmaker a chance to place players correctly and also reduce the weighting of the first two matches. To help reduce the risk of players erroneously remaining at higher rank, the reseeding of MMR should happen if the player has less than 50 games played in the season. When a reseeding of MMR happens, then the players should not be able to place higher than the new player cap, Platinum 3.





Introduce MMR decay at higher levels



The next step is the adding of MMR decay (and Rank Point decay) at higher levels, a feature which has been requested several times by pros. People who don’t play for a longer amount of time are no longer up to date regarding the meta, recent changes and reworks, and mechanics. MMR decay also prevents highly placed players from continuing to take up “bandwidth” in the higher leagues and normalizes the league distribution better.





Rework ranked rewards







Ranked rewards should be reworked to increase interest in playing and grinding on the ladder. Currently, the rewards from Hero League and Team League are based on the highest rank you achieved during the season rather than the final result. This often leads to players peaking and losing interest in playing more.



The distribution of rewards should also be changed. Currently, Platinum and Diamond players get a mount, some gold, and a portrait according to their rank. Master and Grandmaster players get an additional version of that mount and some more gold. An improved system would look like this:





Bronze–Gold Gold and portrait

Platinum–Diamond Gold, portrait, normal mount

Master Gold, portrait, normal mount, special mount

Grandmaster Gold, portrait, normal mount, special mount, special banner/skin





Master and Grandmaster players should get something completely exclusive to make the rank even more rewarding. A special banner or skin that only Grandmasters earn would make the rank not only more desirable but also reward players who are willing to spend the extra time grinding. It also offers a unique way for them to show off their skill level and dedication. The same goes for Team League. Remove the option to get the Platinum and Diamond mount no matter your rank and make it more challenging to earn. Rewards need to be exclusive to ranks.





Bring back performance-based matchmaking







Performance-based matchmaking (PBM), whenever it finally comes online, could also help to reward players for improving beyond their personal bests, given that it is working right. Sadly, PBM didn’t get used as planned due to all the problems earlier this year. We don’t know yet if it will work properly, but there is hope that it will help sort players into their proper ranks better and reward improving players even more.









Benjamin "SlapJackNpNp" Herzog is a Electrical Engineer who found his passion for esports through Heroes of the Storm and is now writing articles for Team Liquid and working on Master League.



You can follow him on Twitter.









Season 1 of Hero League in 2018 had a plethora of problems. People got placed into a wrong division, whether it was up or down, resulting in several ladder resets to fix the problem. Performance Based Matchmaking (PBM) was even disabled to ensure matchmaking was more precise.Toward the end of the season, several highly ranked players noticed that they always got a negative personal rank adjustment, to which Blizzard admitted that high ranked players were receiving continuous negative personal adjustments at the end of each game in order to balance out the MMR disparities. After several complaints, the game developer was forced to again come up with a new approach in next season.For the second season of 2018, Blizzard announced that the uncertainty after a reset was reduced and that players could no longer jump higher or lower then one division compared to their rank in the previous season. New accounts could only rank as high as Platinum 3. It seemed like a positive change, but it was too late too little.Despite all the effort to improve the experience in ranked play, discussions on Twitter and Reddit began cropping up on the poor match quality at higher ranks. Across the board, it seemed that there were far too many players in the upper divisions with poor game knowledge and/or mechanics. Was it the result of matchmaking mishaps? Even if it were, how could the system right itself?Tweets from Dreadnaught and Trikslyr about the player base’s lack of knowledge received several responses from pro players. Community members joined in the discussion as well by throwing in their opinion. Overall, most of the pros agreed that there were not enough resources available to the average player to help them improve.Of course, this isn’t a new problem. The statement, that the player base knowledge is nowhere near where it should be, was made often times in the past by several pro players. The only difference is that now skill divisions have been jumbled beyond recognition and more games than ever are uneven. The questions that remain are: why it is still a problem, and how do we fix it?According to Reddit and other popular discussion boards, there is very little educational content available for Heroes of the Storm players, especially from pro players. It’s a poor substitute to rely on progamers who spend most of their time practicing and resting, but even so, the occasional guide by a pro player does get made. Many pro players also provide educational content on their streams by showing how and why they do things and answering questions.Beside the pro players are tons of content creators out there who publish educational content—even Blizzard’s editorial team did a series of five articles called “Opening Moves” about game basics with input from pro players! So the content is out there in the big world wide web, but it might not be easy to find it. Content creators asked Blizzard several times to help make these articles and guides more visible, but it hasn’t really happened yet.There is some visibility though. Most of the guides get promoted by known organizations and pages in the scene and are posted on Reddit to get some attention. The content doesn’t reach the entire Heroes of the Storm population, but theoretically it should reach enough to make a difference and to make it easy enough to find educational content for players that are looking for them.The problem is not the number of guides and the availability of them, it’s simply the fact that the player base doesn’t need them. It’s not because they know everything, they just don’t need guides and educational content to help them achieve their goals.Blizzard recently confirmed that the ideal distribution of players in Hero League is sort of a bell curve with the 60% majority residing in Silver and Gold and very few at the very top and bottom. When asked why there were so few Bronze-level players compared to other games, a Blizzard representative commented that it was an unusual distribution based on making the player base “feel” good about their rank.While this is a nice touch for players, it certainly doesn’t help to improve the player base knowledge. In fact, this does the opposite. People who feel good with their rank and with what they achieved don’t have the desire to improve themselves and therefore no interest in reading guides or watching videos or pro play. Some even just come back to the game for the new season, play a few games, and then stop until the next season to farm the rewards.This is especially a problem for the higher ranks in Hero League. Players in Master league can play their ten placement matches and stay in Master league season after season. Even players who just continuously play hero league have a good chance to remain in their rank or even be promoted due to the grind nature of Hero League and the constant teammate roulette. The problem therefore is not the lack of guides and their availability and visibility but rather the fact that there is no need to improve for most players since they get everything they want.This is a hard question and it’s not easy to answer. One thing requested several times, even by pros, is to change how the placement matches work.In the first few seasons of Hero League, the rank after placements was capped to Diamond 3 at highest. This would result in Master, Grandmaster, and Diamond 1-3 players getting mixed together into games and generating uneven and unfun games for everyone. In 2017’s Season 3, the cap was raised to 1000 point Master. The idea was to reduce the difference in ranks each game, but it also made it possible for players who had never reached Master league to inexplicably place higher than they ever had.The players with the highest MMR can place in Diamond 3 if they win all placement matches or place all the way down in Diamond 5 if they lose all of them. Everyone else gets compressed accordingly, meaning that a Platinum 1 player would drop to mid-Platinum, bottom tier Platinum players would drop to Gold, and so on. A compression would enable fairer matchmaking by pushing average players out of the top ranks into the middle of the curve in Silver, Gold, and Platinum leagues. It also would give every player a challenge and a reason to play and grind Hero League, to prove that they are still able to reach their rank. Instead of immediately ranking up to the highest possible rank, players would be forced to play a set number of games. As a result, rankings would normalize.To give the players enough time to play and climb the ladder, increasing the duration of the seasons to at least 6 month is recommended. The number of placement matches should also be increased to 15 or 20 matches to give the matchmaker a chance to place players correctly and also reduce the weighting of the first two matches. To help reduce the risk of players erroneously remaining at higher rank, the reseeding of MMR should happen if the player has less than 50 games played in the season. When a reseeding of MMR happens, then the players should not be able to place higher than the new player cap, Platinum 3.The next step is the adding of MMR decay (and Rank Point decay) at higher levels, a feature which has been requested several times by pros. People who don’t play for a longer amount of time are no longer up to date regarding the meta, recent changes and reworks, and mechanics. MMR decay also prevents highly placed players from continuing to take up “bandwidth” in the higher leagues and normalizes the league distribution better.Ranked rewards should be reworked to increase interest in playing and grinding on the ladder. Currently, the rewards from Hero League and Team League are based on the highest rank you achieved during the season rather than the final result. This often leads to players peaking and losing interest in playing more.The distribution of rewards should also be changed. Currently, Platinum and Diamond players get a mount, some gold, and a portrait according to their rank. Master and Grandmaster players get an additional version of that mount and some more gold. An improved system would look like this:Master and Grandmaster players should get something completely exclusive to make the rank even more rewarding. A special banner or skin that only Grandmasters earn would make the rank not only more desirable but also reward players who are willing to spend the extra time grinding. It also offers a unique way for them to show off their skill level and dedication. The same goes for Team League. Remove the option to get the Platinum and Diamond mount no matter your rank and make it more challenging to earn. Rewards need to be exclusive to ranks.Performance-based matchmaking (PBM), whenever it finally comes online, could also help to reward players for improving beyond their personal bests, given that it is working right. Sadly, PBM didn’t get used as planned due to all the problems earlier this year. We don’t know yet if it will work properly, but there is hope that it will help sort players into their proper ranks better and reward improving players even more.

ShoCkeyy Profile Blog Joined July 2008 7108 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-10 12:30:00 #2 A lot of good ideas, my situation is weird. I mostly play with friends who are masters and diamond players in unranked. I know my skill level isn’t master, but I know the game well enough to be placed at diamond. However, when I play placements, I get ranks across the board. Then the lower knowledge players typically throw because they’re not used to high level games. So what happens? I get screwed by some one else’s stupid mistakes.



The other is knowing how to win, given the correct circumstances. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve team wiped the oppenent, and yet some how two or three people rather take a keep than push the open lane to core for the win... it’s unbearable... especially when you were set to win the game, had to wait over 10mins for a game, and then lose because others just plainly don’t know how to win... Life?

SlapJack Profile Joined March 2018 Germany 5 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-10 12:58:38 #3 On April 10 2018 21:28 ShoCkeyy wrote:

A lot of good ideas, my situation is weird. I mostly play with friends who are masters and diamond players in unranked. I know my skill level isn’t master, but I know the game well enough to be placed at diamond. However, when I play placements, I get ranks across the board. Then the lower knowledge players typically throw because they’re not used to high level games. So what happens? I get screwed by some one else’s stupid mistakes.



The other is knowing how to win, given the correct circumstances. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve team wiped the oppenent, and yet some how two or three people rather take a keep than push the open lane to core for the win... it’s unbearable... especially when you were set to win the game, had to wait over 10mins for a game, and then lose because others just plainly don’t know how to win...





Been there, done that, like most players in HotS. I'm really looking forward to what Blizzard has to announce and what they will say in the AMA. And i really hope that they will do somethign and will change things. Been there, done that, like most players in HotS. I'm really looking forward to what Blizzard has to announce and what they will say in the AMA. And i really hope that they will do somethign and will change things.

Fanatic-Templar Profile Joined February 2010 Canada 4374 Posts #4 The concept of Hero League just doesn't make sense. It's a team game, yet solo queue is how you're ranking yourself? I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.

10dla Profile Joined March 2018 127 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-10 18:29:00 #5 So i can simply blame the game for not telling me what to do? This is awesome. Especially with crazy complicated mechanics like: Stay on lane and you get XP. When you play bad in other team games, someone will usually tell that you are fucking up. When enough people do that, you are probably doing something wrong. Why not have that simple concept in Heroes?

SlapJack Profile Joined March 2018 Germany 5 Posts #6 On April 11 2018 03:25 10dla wrote:

So i can simply blame the game for not telling me what to do? This is awesome. Especially with crazy complicated mechanics like: Stay on lane and you get XP. When you play bad in other team games, someone will usually tell that you are fucking up. When enough people do that, you are probably doing something wrong. Why not have that simple concept in Heroes?



I think you missunderstood that. No you can't blame the game for not telling you what to do. But you can blame the game for not generating the desire and the challenge to generate the interest in improving and climbing in you.



That "simple" concept is in Heroes, like in every other game. But just because it gets used doesn't mean it generates and effect. Depending on how someone tells you that you do something wrong, your reaction can be either, "what a toxic flamer that guy has no clue i'm doing fine" to "maybe he is right i don't know". In a optimal case a player then wants to improve himself and is looking for info if he actuall did something wrong or not. But that interest to inform yourself and improve yourself only happens if said player actually wants to improve and to climb. If he is happy where he is and says, ah my rank is nice, he probably won't invest the time to inform himself and just continue. Even if he does nothing, he will win some matches and loose some. Maybe he will drop in the rankings, maybe he stays. And that is, in my opinion, a problem. I think you missunderstood that. No you can't blame the game for not telling you what to do. But you can blame the game for not generating the desire and the challenge to generate the interest in improving and climbing in you.That "simple" concept is in Heroes, like in every other game. But just because it gets used doesn't mean it generates and effect. Depending on how someone tells you that you do something wrong, your reaction can be either, "what a toxic flamer that guy has no clue i'm doing fine" to "maybe he is right i don't know". In a optimal case a player then wants to improve himself and is looking for info if he actuall did something wrong or not. But that interest to inform yourself and improve yourself only happens if said player actually wants to improve and to climb. If he is happy where he is and says, ah my rank is nice, he probably won't invest the time to inform himself and just continue. Even if he does nothing, he will win some matches and loose some. Maybe he will drop in the rankings, maybe he stays. And that is, in my opinion, a problem.

10dla Profile Joined March 2018 127 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-10 18:49:56 #7 "But you can blame the game for not generating the desire and the challenge to generate the interest in improving and climbing in you.". Not dying, not having your games look like absolute shit is not enough to not suck? This game has replays. You can look into your replay and analyse. The fucking problem is that there are 9 other people to analyse as well. Thats why random 5 vs random 5 is shit. Another factor: The moment someone calls you out for being bad: REPORT. People in this game dont improve, they simply report it away

SlapJack Profile Joined March 2018 Germany 5 Posts #8 I think you miss the point. Some players are happy if they recive some loot and as long as their rank doesn't look to bad, and the current distribution and reward system is helping with that. This leads to alot of people just not beeing interested in knowing more, or in self studies with replay analysis.

[Phantom] Profile Blog Joined August 2013 Mexico 1639 Posts #9



No one analyses their replays. Well, some do, but very few. You can't control what the other 5 do, but you can control what you do if you lose it's not on you. You can even rally your team to victory by setting up ganks or being friendly. It's not impossible. Especially with crazy complicated mechanics like: Stay on lane and you get XP. When you play bad in other team games, someone will usually tell that you are fucking up. When enough people do that, you are probably doing something wrong. Why not have that simple concept in Heroes?



I blame this on the game not being clearenough and punishing players early game. In other games you die 2 times in 3 minutes you just lost your lane and will be in a consireable disadvantage for most of the match unless your oponent screws up or your team helps you to gank etc. Here you die two times and nothing happens. Then in the lategame, stuff do happens, so when you go and die 1 vs 5 at minute 20 you don't really understand how badly you are fucking up your team. I blame this on the game not being clearenough and punishing players early game. In other games you die 2 times in 3 minutes you just lost your lane and will be in a consireable disadvantage for most of the match unless your oponent screws up or your team helps you to gank etc. Here you die two times and nothing happens. Then in the lategame, stuff do happens, so when you go and die 1 vs 5 at minute 20 you don't really understand how badly you are fucking up your team. Writer TeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom

Aiobhill Profile Joined June 2013 Germany 283 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-10 19:27:56 #10 Okay, a few points, and I'm in the mood to be blunt about them. It should be obvious, but to be sure reiterating this mostly isn't critisism directed at the article, which bring up a few good points.



People complaining about the 'uneducated' player base are idiots - from two quite different perspectives. Firstly - unless you're pro, bronze 5 or playing in Antarctica at 3 am - despite all of its shortcomings, the matchmaker groups you with people roughly on your level. If you are able to diagnose lack of game knowledge in the other guys, in means you have similar shortcomings, may it be micro, makro or game knowledge yourself. Secondly, for the vast majority of players, this is an entertainment product. Yes they like winning, yes they - within limits - like to improve, like to learn. But in their often limited playtime, if the entertainment received vs time/effort invested ratio slips, they stop caring. Also, in a competitive zero-sum game with fixed rankings, there are per se no extra rewards for a uniformly improving player base. No matter if everybody plays like an Einstein with 700 apm or everybody plays like a lobotomized chipmunk, 1% of people will be in Masters and 7% will be in Bronze.



The rework ranked rewards section in the article is mindboggingly dense. In a game struggling with participation especially in TL, the author wants to massively lower the incentive to play said game mode. It's counterproductive from a psychological, from a competitive and from a marketing point of view. People with that mindset developed Wildstar or Lawbreakers, you find those on your nearest gaming graveyard.



PBMM sounded good on paper, but the way pros were able to dissect it within 24 hours and prove it was actually punishing good gameplay should serve as a warning. Re-introduce it for nothing more than AFK detection for a season or two (naive me wants to believe it can't possibly fail at that as well) and let it collect data in the background. Then, and only if you as a developer are 101% convinced if get's the job done, reintroduce it. Axslav - apm70maphacks - tak3r

10dla Profile Joined March 2018 127 Posts #11 On April 11 2018 04:05 [Phantom] wrote:

No one analyses their replays. Well, some do, but very few. You can't control what the other 5 do, but you can control what you do if you lose it's not on you. You can even rally your team to victory by setting up ganks or being friendly. It's not impossible.



Show nested quote +

Especially with crazy complicated mechanics like: Stay on lane and you get XP. When you play bad in other team games, someone will usually tell that you are fucking up. When enough people do that, you are probably doing something wrong. Why not have that simple concept in Heroes?



I blame this on the game not being clearenough and punishing players early game. In other games you die 2 times in 3 minutes you just lost your lane and will be in a consireable disadvantage for most of the match unless your oponent screws up or your team helps you to gank etc. Here you die two times and nothing happens. Then in the lategame, stuff do happens, so when you go and die 1 vs 5 at minute 20 you don't really understand how badly you are fucking up your team. No one analyses their replays. Well, some do, but very few. You can't control what the other 5 do, but you can control what you do if you lose it's not on you. You can even rally your team to victory by setting up ganks or being friendly. It's not impossible.I blame this on the game not being clearenough and punishing players early game. In other games you die 2 times in 3 minutes you just lost your lane and will be in a consireable disadvantage for most of the match unless your oponent screws up or your team helps you to gank etc. Here you die two times and nothing happens. Then in the lategame, stuff do happens, so when you go and die 1 vs 5 at minute 20 you don't really understand how badly you are fucking up your team.

In other games, you can litarally get carried through the entire game due to someone being fed to no end. And you cant just chain die on your lane without any consequences. You will fall behind In other games, you can litarally get carried through the entire game due to someone being fed to no end. And you cant just chain die on your lane without any consequences. You will fall behind

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #12 These can of posts are cringeworthy and just awful.



The writer and most pro's and people writing these articles know nothing about the finer details of these matchmaking systems and just spout nonsense into the ether thinking they can easily solve all issues.



First of all the length of placement matches, the cap and so on has practically no influence on matchmaking. Matchmaking is done by MMR and rank is only a facade on top of that. Placement capped to diamond or to masters 1000 doesn't matter, matches are done by MMR and it only matters for the discrepancies in rank you'll see in matches.



The introduction of MMR decay is also a stupid naive suggestion by many as if it would fix any problems. It's just incredibly arrogant to think and try to reason how MMR should work. Blizzard has actually just looked at the data and seen that players who come back from a hiatus perform as is expected for their MMR despite having been inactive. You can theorize whatever the hell you want, it has been shown time and time again in sports that decay isn't much of a thing. There is a slight period that you have to readjust and then you're back to your old level generally and adding much decay would only make matchmaking actively worse. Note that there already IS a small form of decay by the soft resets that happen between seasons..



The suggestion to bring back PBMM is also naive. There is nothing to indicate such a system actually works. There is a reason basically no game or sport uses such a system. Using data other than win/loss is tremendously fickle as it's very hard to pinpoint how the data actually indicates someone is doing better or worse than what is expected of him. It isn't like you just plop ~50 indicators into some machine learning and voila, the system can determine how you do based on stats. It doesn't work that well, such stats based approaches don't work well in some problems and determining player skill seems to be one of them. PBMM is unlikely to help at all and the failure of the first attempt only confirms that. At best I see it being used for low leagues while the system is disabled at higher level, which is how Overwatch uses it I've heard.



All in all these kind of posts just infuriate me, a bunch of naive writing from people who think they can just easily fix these problems while they don't know much about statistics and matchmaking systems.



Also some are just acting like it's a "fact" matchmaking is at fault. There is no objective data to show that "matches are more uneven". It could be the case but it could just be a circle jerk with players thinking their matches are worse and 'confirming' this by the posts they see. The ability of players to reliably gauge the skills in their own games is notoriously unreliable. Dunning-Kruger is a thing. Players in videogames overrate themselves and use any excuse (bad matchmaking, luck blabla) to find excuses for their own performances.



This topic is just not suitable for reddit and forums like these, the majority simply has no clue what they are talking about. Everyone just brings out the pitchforks and writes the most stupid stuff. "HL should not be seeded from MMR!!!", "MMR decay needs to be introduced!!", "Placements should be capped!!". Knowing how glicko/trueskill systems work these kind of suggestions are just laughable, they won't solve any issues at hand which is hard to tell in the first place.



The only thing I'd wish is that Blizzard would release an API, some more sensible things could be said then at least. Now it's just a cesspit of ignorance whenever matchmaking or MMR comes up as discussion. Too many community figures and pro's make fools of themselves saying ignorant things about things they don't know the details of. Some subjects are just not suitable for the internet where number of posts and likes determine what makes the headlines and not actual knowledge of a subject. Statistcs, matchmaking, probability and so on are subjects which are deceptively tricky and barely moderated forums like reddit and these here are just a joke. The majority of what get's posted regarding these subjects is factually wrong or at least deceptive and the suggestions made are generally awful. The problem is simply that players THINK they know how something works or should work but they don't.

ShoCkeyy Profile Blog Joined July 2008 7108 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-10 23:11:39 #13 No amount data in the world is going to tell you why some one chose to not win a game. Because it does happen, and more frequent than you're caring to realize, which in turn affects the TEAM you were placed with. Life?

Larkin Profile Blog Joined January 2012 United Kingdom 7149 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-11 06:13:21 #14 I remember once, shortly after I had started playing this game - my first Moba - I came here to ask who was in the right after I had played a game where I was being constantly flamed by a 4man when I had thought I was making (mostly) the right decisions. I had not experienced abuse on that level in the game before and it was quite a shock. So I wanted to ask more experienced players who was in the right, and posted the replay and backstory etc here.



I was told that, indeed, they were flaming me for things that weren't strictly my fault. However, I also had mistakes of my own pointed out to me. I learned some things about camp timings and making rotations, deciding between xp soak and being available for a 5v5. I already knew how to respond to abuse - I have a strong enough mentality from years of playing competitive Halo (in which trash talk is as much of a skill as your shooting) to not get sucked into flaming.



Key point is, I learned. Come preseason's end I had climbed to rank 1, in the first season of the new leagues I climbed to master. I've sinced played nearly 7000 games, joined a group for teamleague that started right here and turned into a division 1 (now 2) heroeslounge team, and have placed diamond/master in HL and TL every single season since. I've gone through multiple role switches, have amassed a total level of over 1200. I've watched countless hours of streams and every major tournament since 2016 began. I've made dozens of very good friends.



The vast majority of new players when confronted with a torrent of abuse in a QM game will not seek out experienced advice. They will not look at the possibility that they were wrong and the people flaming them were right, no matter how rude they were about it. Instead, they will flame and they will learn to flame. They will pick up other bad habits. Or they will quit the game altogether. They won't experience all the game has to offer, they won't feel the rush of executing a strategy as a 5man team against a tough opponent. They won't watch a thrilling series in the HGC, they won't make friends. They will be turned away and end up in a different game, in a different scene, because their first games there were a positive experience and the community showed itself to be welcoming and nurturing.



Every complaint about the meta, about toxicity, has to be influenced first and foremost by the playerbase. You and me. Every community this game has has a duty to play and perform as gentlemen. To discourage early ggs, to talk helpfully during the draft, to keep positive spirits up and to not flame when people make a mistake - and to step in when others start to flame. In recent HL games of mine (and I much prefer to play UR or TL with a group nowadays) when someone has made a mistake and died and someone starts to get aggressive - "wtf malf" might not seem like much, but the malf is probably already frustrated at their mistake and doesn't need their own team getting to them as well - I have said things like "it's cool dw, don't miss top soak/let's get hard camp before temple" or what have you. To be positive, to keep focus on the game. Perhaps I'm imagining it, but on multiple occasions when I've stepped in like that there has been no follow up aggressive comment from either player.



If everyone of us, every one of the players in the various communities, the streamers and the pros alike, is able to be positive and set good examples, we will have players that are willing to learn and a patient, friendly community that is willing to teach. https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague

Fanatic-Templar Profile Joined February 2010 Canada 4374 Posts #15 On April 11 2018 15:07 Larkin wrote:

The vast majority of new players when confronted with a torrent of abuse in a QM game will not seek out experienced advice. They will not look at the possibility that they were wrong and the people flaming them were right, no matter how rude they were about it. Instead, they will flame and they will learn to flame. They will pick up other bad habits. Or they will quit the game altogether. They won't experience all the game has to offer, they won't feel the rush of executing a strategy as a 5man team against a tough opponent. They won't watch a thrilling series in the HGC, they won't make friends. They will be turned away and end up in a different game, in a different scene, because their first games there were a positive experience and the community showed itself to be welcoming and nurturing.



Every complaint about the meta, about toxicity, has to be influenced first and foremost by the playerbase. You and me. Every community this game has has a duty to play and perform as gentlemen. To discourage early ggs, to talk helpfully during the draft, to keep positive spirits up and to not flame when people make a mistake - and to step in when others start to flame. In recent HL games of mine (and I much prefer to play UR or TL with a group nowadays) when someone has made a mistake and died and someone starts to get aggressive - "wtf malf" might not seem like much, but the malf is probably already frustrated at their mistake and doesn't need their own team getting to them as well - I have said things like "it's cool dw, don't miss top soak/let's get hard camp before temple" or what have you. To be positive, to keep focus on the game. Perhaps I'm imagining it, but on multiple occasions when I've stepped in like that there has been no follow up aggressive comment from either player.



I find what you've written quite interesting, because I've long believed that the best skill to improve if you want to progress in Hero League is diplomacy. There's always ways you can improve your own play, but teamwork is such a crucial element of the game that learning to manage four other players is probably going to give you much better results. Anecdotally, games where someone displayed calm leadership have always generated strong results. I find what you've written quite interesting, because I've long believed that the best skill to improve if you want to progress in Hero League is diplomacy. There's always ways you can improve your own play, but teamwork is such a crucial element of the game that learning to manage four other players is probably going to give you much better results. Anecdotally, games where someone displayed calm leadership have always generated strong results. I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.

ShoCkeyy Profile Blog Joined July 2008 7108 Posts #16 When I find four other dudes willing to co-operate, we win games in less than 10mins. That’s telling you something. Life?

karazax Profile Joined May 2010 United States 3730 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-11 16:19:21 #17



Specific to visible MMR:





Why can’t I see my MMR?



We talked about this when we first released the Leagues system (holy crap, five years ago now). tl;dr: Showing MMR has a lot of downsides in a team-based game like League.



On the plus side, MMR is a more accurate summation of where you are in relation to other players across the entire server, and showing it can be more reassuring that the match you’re in is fair when scouting your opponents out before a game.



Using MMR as the sole mark of achievement in League punishes half of the playerbase as their MMR will decline over the course of the season, which sucks because most of them are gradually getting better at the game—but so is everyone else around them.



Ranked tiers also provide contextual progression and status. Knowing you’re “a Gold player” as opposed to “a 1650 MMR player” or “120,353 on the server” gives you clearer targets to work towards. Moving from 1595 to 1600 MMR is probably not that compelling, but promoting from Silver I to Gold V should give you the knowledge that you’re truly improving.



The Leagues system also gives you a bit of protection from losing a bunch of games in a row and having your MMR plummet as a result. Using demotion protection and promo helper, you can get a few extra lives in rare cases of not getting your preferred position for a few games or just being in a slump. Ranked anxiety is real, and we know there can be a lot of pressure, so having meaningful progression that feels good should hopefully break down a few of those barriers.



— Riot Gortok, Designer, Get in Game



As for improving player knowledge,



Having better defined hero classes and more up to date in game rankings for the above sub stats could be combined with in game draft recommendations.



For example in game suggestions like Overwatch has at the draft screen that say your team needs a tank, your team needs wave clear, your team needs CC, your team needs a solo laner, your team needs a support.



Likewise it would be good if you could see the actual win rates of every hero on the map you are playing in game in the draft. No HOTSLOGS needed.



That would drastically improve the knowledge of the average player who doesn't read guides, watch streams or seek out information outside the game. Beyond that I would like to see more guides and resources accessible inside the game client. A separate in game tab for guides for example with guides that are indexed by patch so that out of date guides are removed.

Most of the stuff in this article for League of Legends and matchmaking applies to HOTS too.We talked about this when we first released the Leagues system (holy crap, five years ago now). tl;dr: Showing MMR has a lot of downsides in a team-based game like League.On the plus side, MMR is a more accurate summation of where you are in relation to other players across the entire server, and showing it can be more reassuring that the match you’re in is fair when scouting your opponents out before a game.Ranked tiers also provide contextual progression and status. Knowing you’re “a Gold player” as opposed to “a 1650 MMR player” or “120,353 on the server” gives you clearer targets to work towards. Moving from 1595 to 1600 MMR is probably not that compelling, but promoting from Silver I to Gold V should give you the knowledge that you’re truly improving.The Leagues system also gives you a bit of protection from losing a bunch of games in a row and having your MMR plummet as a result. Using demotion protection and promo helper, you can get a few extra lives in rare cases of not getting your preferred position for a few games or just being in a slump. Ranked anxiety is real, and we know there can be a lot of pressure, so having meaningful progression that feels good should hopefully break down a few of those barriers.As for improving player knowledge,Having better defined hero classes and more up to date in game rankings for the above sub stats could be combined with in game draft recommendations.For example in game suggestions like Overwatch has at the draft screen that say your team needs a tank, your team needs wave clear, your team needs CC, your team needs a solo laner, your team needs a support.Likewise it would be good if you could see the actual win rates of every hero on the map you are playing in game in the draft. No HOTSLOGS needed.That would drastically improve the knowledge of the average player who doesn't read guides, watch streams or seek out information outside the game. Beyond that I would like to see more guides and resources accessible inside the game client. A separate in game tab for guides for example with guides that are indexed by patch so that out of date guides are removed.

Aiobhill Profile Joined June 2013 Germany 283 Posts #18 On April 12 2018 01:16 karazax wrote:As for improving player knowledge,



Having better defined hero classes and more up to date in game rankings for the above sub stats could be combined with in game draft recommendations.



For example in game suggestions like Overwatch has at the draft screen that say your team needs a tank, your team needs wave clear, your team needs CC, your team needs a solo laner, your team needs a support.



Likewise it would be good if you could see the actual win rates of every hero on the map you are playing in game in the draft. No HOTSLOGS needed.



That would drastically improve the knowledge of the average player who doesn't read guides, watch streams or seek out information outside the game.



Golly gosh, why restrict the hand holding to one aspect of the game, in your example drafting?



With exactly the same reasoning, we could help players during the course of the match. Look xXxNovaxXx, that skill shot was 23 degrees off your target to the right, let me give you this nifty aimbot for the next three attacks. Or a big arrow pointing at that Sylvanas solo pushing your top lane for the last 6 minutes 23 seconds, coming with a voiceover 'Dear silver level combattants, this - you know - is most problematic. Go there and whap her over the head. Pronto.'



What you are suggesting would by no means 'drastically improve the knowledge of the average player', au contraire, it would completely devalue any knowledge accumulated so far. It's setting one arbitrarily selected part of the game on autopilot, It's a terrible idea. Golly gosh, why restrict the hand holding to one aspect of the game, in your example drafting?With exactly the same reasoning, we could help players during the course of the match. Look xXxNovaxXx, that skill shot was 23 degrees off your target to the right, let me give you this nifty aimbot for the next three attacks. Or a big arrow pointing at that Sylvanas solo pushing your top lane for the last 6 minutes 23 seconds, coming with a voiceover 'Dear silver level combattants, this - you know - is most problematic. Go there and whap her over the head. Pronto.'What you are suggesting would by no means 'drastically improve the knowledge of the average player', au contraire, it would completely devalue any knowledge accumulated so far. It's setting one arbitrarily selected part of the game on autopilot, It's a terrible idea. Axslav - apm70maphacks - tak3r

karazax Profile Joined May 2010 United States 3730 Posts #19 Yes clearly educating players on win rates is the same thing as adding an aimbot...



Nobody knows win rates just based on their own knowledge anyway. It certainly doesn't make drafting a matter of pick the 5 best win rate heroes. Experienced players know that win rates only give part of the story. Hanzo and Genji may have low win rates, it doesn't mean they should never be picked.



One of the biggest community complaints is match making and how players don't know how to draft. The game can help with that or we can just live with having an uneducated player base. Personally I would prefer more educated players. The idea that providing advice and information in the draft about what a standard comp should have would make the draft auto pilot is drastically over selling things.

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4833 Posts Last Edited: 2018-04-12 05:01:41 #20 On April 12 2018 07:19 karazax wrote:

Yes clearly educating players on win rates is the same thing as adding an aimbot...



Nobody knows win rates just based on their own knowledge anyway. It certainly doesn't make drafting a matter of pick the 5 best win rate heroes. Experienced players know that win rates only give part of the story. Hanzo and Genji may have low win rates, it doesn't mean they should never be picked.



One of the biggest community complaints is match making and how players don't know how to draft. The game can help with that or we can just live with having an uneducated player base. Personally I would prefer more educated players. The idea that providing advice and information in the draft about what a standard comp should have would make the draft auto pilot is drastically over selling things.



In my opinion, the discussion of hero roles and how they fit into compositions is a long, long discussion completely separate from MMR. Unlike LoL or Dota where roles are fairly well established over a long period of time playing on a single map, Heroes of the Storm has very unique compositional intricacies which prevent players from picking a single "ideal comp". Narrowing this viewpoint might create more problems than it solves.



Having "an uneducated player base" is really more the result of the game mechanics rather than the in-game pointers, though. With no true laning phase or part of the map where certain roles belong, the best you can do is say "We need a tank, a healer, and three other guys", which is not very useful. I shouldn't need to read a bunch of guides to understand that Tyrande doesn't count as a healer, Leoric is a bad solo tank, or that you shouldn't pick two specialists like Xul and Sylvanas together. What we—the people who frequent HotS forums and talk about the game on a daily basis—take for granted as "common knowledge" is actually pretty high level understanding.

In my opinion, the discussion of hero roles and how they fit into compositions is a long, long discussion completely separate from MMR. Unlike LoL or Dota where roles are fairly well established over a long period of time playing on a single map, Heroes of the Storm has very unique compositional intricacies which prevent players from picking a single "ideal comp". Narrowing this viewpoint might create more problems than it solves.Having "an uneducated player base" is really more the result of the game mechanics rather than the in-game pointers, though. With no true laning phase or part of the map where certain roles belong, the best you can do is say "We need a tank, a healer, and three other guys", which is not very useful. I shouldn't need to read a bunch of guides to understand that Tyrande doesn't count as a healer, Leoric is a bad solo tank, or that you shouldn't pick two specialists like Xul and Sylvanas together. What we—the people who frequent HotS forums and talk about the game on a daily basis—take for granted as "common knowledge" is actually pretty high level understanding. Strategy

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