Nightingale ( )

Date: February 08, 2014 04:27PM Posted by:Date: February 08, 2014 04:27PM

Drew Marshall Radio Show, Saturday, February 8, 2014



Tom Phillips and Tal Bachman re Tom’s Legal Action Against Thomas Monson, LDS Prophet





Drew: Whew, this is a hot segment. The President of the Mormon Church has been charged with fraud, with procuring funds by lying. He has been ordered to appear before a magistrate in England.



My guests are two well informed and well connected gentleman. (Introduces Tom and Tal).



Tom Phillips was a lay minister with the Mormon Church, holding the same positions as Mitt Romney as a matter of fact! Former Bishop and Stake President (etc). He has been ordained a king and promised to become a god and member of a godhead in the Second Anointing. He is the only person to openly speak of this ordinance.



Read his web site MormonThink.



Tom is in Thailand right now.



And our good friend Tal, ex- Mormon. (Obligatory intro of Tal as a Canadian musician, hit song She's So High, son of Randy Bachman etc) ... He came to the conclusion that the religion of his family was false. ...



Tal: Tom, congratulations on the shot heard around the world. How are you feeling Tom?



Tom: Excited. Jet-lagged.



I'm pleased that Drew mentioned this is a fraud case. The PR machine has been making it out to be all about religion. It’s not about religion – it’s a fraud case.



Drew: I don’t know if this is a law in the US or Canada. There’s a law in the UK that says if you are going to make money off lies, it’s illegal.



Tom: Not in the US at the moment, not sure about Canada. Was brought in around [2006?]. It’s a recent piece of legislation to cover the Internet [etc].



Tal: Does the audience have a summary of this?



Drew: I can't read all 7 parts.



Tal: Is this a private piece of [litigation]?



Tom: It's about a fraud that is allegedly made on individuals living in England and Wales and also the UK Treasury. [NG: There were more facts about the Treasury aspect but I couldn't get them all down and this part is unfamiliar to me].



Tal: You are identifying The President of the Mormon Church as being responsible?



Tom: … and there may be other summonses coming to other individuals.



Drew: Many say this is not going to see the light of day. They [the U.S.A.] are certainly not going to extradite the President of the Mormon Church.



Tom: All these people [who criticize or prognosticate] - none has any expertise in this field. This has already been seen by a District Judge who has determined there is a case to answer. Serious charges to be answered.



And saying that Mr. Monson will not attend on that day – if he doesn't that will break the 12th Article of Faith – being subject to magistrates, honouring and sustaining the law. If he does not appear, an arrest warrant will be issued for him.



Re extradition – it's a thorny legal issue. Success depends on the lawyers involved. If the President has an arrest warrant and is refusing to answer serious questions, that doesn’t look very well for him. His best bet is to turn up and answer these charges.



Drew: When it comes to bringing a religion before the courts for telling lies – the tenets of any faith, well the reason it’s called faith is because there’s a certain invisibility involved. You have to choose to believe, not facts. Faith claims are not always fact. Are there particular things about the Mormon Church that can be determined to be false?



Tom: If someone feels their life has been turned around because they found Jesus, like they used to drink and then they get sober... When people have embraced a faith wholeheartedly, they donate freely and help to spread the word or build churches, that’s religion and they’re entitled to that and that’s good but when a religion makes specific statements that can be tested in court - when someone says their life is changed by Jesus, well it doesn’t belong in courts. But take the Book of Abraham, Mormon scripture. … and racism is in there. We’re not getting into doctrine. We’re saying the Mormon Church claims that Joseph Smith literally translated papyri into the Book of Abraham. Egyptologists say that’s nonsense. That can be tested in court.



Tal: That’s one example, the Book of Abraham. The Mormon Church leaders have been sitting on the papyri since the late 60s. They know it’s not a translation in any conceivable sense of the word. It’s not what it claims to be. They have not been forthcoming about that. The Mormon Church is systematically obfuscating the facts. The compelling thing here is this is not just a case of God is 6’ tall vs 7’ tall but it’s an issue of where the rubber hits the road - it’s fraud. The church has secret archives. You cannot get in to examine the founding documents.



Drew: As you’re saying, intentional fraud and the Mormon Church is sitting on the evidence of what would prove it’s not true – Number 7 [in Tom's legal action] – it's about the teachings of monotheistic religions – of which Mormonism is a branch – I find that that one falls under the description of religious belief, that you’re not going to have any serious weight against.



Tal: Mormons believe that everyone alive today is descended from two people in Missouri 6000 yrs ago. …



Drew: I thought you were talking about Adam and Eve.



Tal: I am!!



Drew: Oh {{laughter}}



Tal: Why did Tom include that one?



Tom: It’s a very distinct Mormon teaching. Different Christians have different interpretations (of things). Maybe it's [the 6 days of creation] six creative periods? Catholics believe that the Big Bang happened at some point and then evolution took place and then at some time God placed his spirit in a hominoid and so on.



But Missouri, it's very literal. Can it be tested in a court of law? Yes, we can do DNA testing.



There is a common ancestral female who lived [160K] years ago and a male [200K] years ago…



Drew: What you’ve said - every religion is in trouble, including Christianity?



Tom: No. The largest Christian church is the Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox – no, Roman Catholic. They do not believe in some of these things and these things are left to faith [NG: as opposed to fact].



Drew: Is there such a thing as freedom of religion in westernized countries? Atheists can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, knock yourselves out. But take Scientology - outsiders says that’s nuts. Same with Christianity. So are all religions screwed because of this [the legal proceeding]?



Tom: It’s up to individuals how they interpret it. But if you make a factual statement – [NG: such as] I’ve got the original thing that that was translated from and I can go to experts who can translate it [NG: to support the truth claim]. Then it gives some credibility [to the claim]. That at least it was a historical document. Now, that doesn’t prove that what’s in it is true [NG: but it has at least some historical veracity then]. But the Book of Abraham is purported to be the writing of *Abraham*. His handwriting was said to be seen by Joseph Smith. So, is it anything to do with Abraham? Experts can look at this and determine it.



When you get into facts and attack science for challenging your statements that is testable in a court of law. And if you’re doing it in order to get money from tithing that goes into the fraud area.



Tal: There are so many contradictions and so much ad hoc reasoning [in the Mormon Church].



Drew: Where’s it at now? This story is getting a lot of traction in the media. …



Tom: We’re just waiting for March 14, for Mr. Monson’s appearance in court.



Tal: Did you consult with the District Judge before you proceeded? How did it come about that you would be able to draft a document that would convince a judge?



Tom: You can’t speak to a judge in Britain. They do not speak direct to members of the public. In an oral hearing I stood in court and faced questions from that judge, at her request. I had sought legal counsel beforehand in terms of has this got a chance? I had to convince a major law firm that this did have merit. Then I laid an Information in the Magistrate’s Court.



These things can be thrown out if trivial, vexacious or an abuse of power. This whole process was looked at with such scrutiny by a District Judge. It has been intensely scrutinized for months.



Tal: So the [Mormon] Church has known [about this action]?



Tom: Not sure. There has been no reason they should. …



Drew: Email from SLC - Michael: ...This [action] is giving light to the systemic misinformation produced by LDS, by its members, and is an honest and noble cause. (He gave his background as a BIC, RM, now ex). Credible information is not provided by LDS [he found] and it led to losing faith. Painful. Is it an important distinction that the fraud case has been brought by a Magistrate and is not like in a US style court?



Tom: This is a criminal case. …



Drew: Email - The media has labelled Tom an exmo. He still retains his membership. Is this because the church can’t excommunicate him after the second anointing?



Tom: Yes, they’ve made me a god. It would be difficult for them [NG: to ex me]. I do not regard myself as a member. I do not associate with them. I do not tithe.



They claim 15 million members, it’s about 4 million [who are “active”]. The Mormon Church through its rules regards me as a member. I’ve been so outspoken they should have excommunicated me but it must be due to the second anointing that they haven't.



Tal: I don’t feel that anybody has an obligation to try to drag people out of the Mormon Church. If people look at all the relevant facts and they still want to be Mormon, fine. This action represents a comeuppance for a church which for decades and decades and decades has not been forthcoming about its history. For any Mormon listening, go to LDS.org and read essays [NG: by Mormon Church reps] that are basically admitting that they have been deceptive about the facts relevant to their truth claims and so that is where the rubber hits the road. This is about fraud.



Guys [missionaries] go out to the most dangerous neighbourhoods in the world for two years at ages 19 and 20 because they were denied access to the facts about Joseph Smith, the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, and there is an ever-growing mountain of evidence that the Mormon Church cannot possibly be what it claims.



Drew: I don’t believe most ex-anythings due to them likely having an obvious bias. But Mormons should look into it [the church’s truth claims] and check if things are true.



Drew: You guys [Tom and Tal] should probably go out and have a beer. Oh, can you do that? Oh yeah, you can now as you’re ex.



Tal: He’s a god so he can probably drink anything he wants!





Drew: My token exmo buddy, Tal!

(This was said at sometime during the broadcast - I didn't get the right place for it but it makes a nice finish!)



And there was some great-sounding music playing before and after the interview; turned out to be Tal!





NB: This transcript is rough and incomplete but the best I could do "live". Tom and Tal, or any listeners, please correct me if I have inadvertently changed any major points, or please add anything crucial that I've left out. I couldn't get it all! I have indicated in some places (using the three-dot method) where statements have been left out but please take it as a given that I left a lot out as I focused on just recording the basic ideas of what was said. I added a few words here and there to try and clarify meaning, as hearing it can give a different comprehension from reading it (so anything in square brackets is my memory or understanding of what was said or a clarifying word or two from me if I know that Tom or Tal had said more, that would make what was said more precise or clear or complete).



So, this transcript is subject to my limited memory and typing skills at work as three guys spoke, sometimes all at once! I promise this "papyri" won't be locked in a vault or lost and recreated, or reincarnated as a true translation of holy writ at any point in time!



Enjoy. And bring on March 14!



(The latest edit is to eliminate typos and to clarify as much as possible, and that’s it, my best effort).







Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2014 11:02PM by Administrator.