TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Clive Palmer refused to take question from the media after his announcement late today. He's due to meet the Prime Minister tomorrow morning. He joins us now live in our Parliament House studio.

Thanks for being there.

CLIVE PALMER, LEADER, PALMER UNITED PARTY: It's great to see you, Tony. I'm here to answer questions.

TONY JONES: Yep, good. What caused your road of Damascus conversion on climate change?

CLIVE PALMER: Well I guess the well-being of the Australian people and the people of the world's more important. And certainly from knowledge I had, I think I didn't have a full picture. Meeting with the Vice President, someone who's a world authority on that, a Nobel laureate, was able to enlighten me on a number of aspects about climate change which I wasn't fully familiar with and the importance of it for all Australians.

TONY JONES: Do you remember telling us back in April that you didn't believe in the scientific consensus that climate change due to global warming will have an effect on Australia? You've given that opinion away, have you?

CLIVE PALMER: Well that's absolutely accurate, what I said in April, but of course all of us can change our view given more information. And Al Gore was good enough to come to Canberra to talk to me and discuss some very important issues with me. He took the challenges that I gave him on a number of things and I was satisfied that it is a matter of great concern. And importantly, I said if we're going to have an ETS, it needs to be one we only have when all our trading partners have it 'cause we don't want to disadvantage Australian jobs.

TONY JONES: Yeah, we'll come to that in a minute. I'm still trying to get my head around how much you've changed in the matter of two or three months. Forgive me for being just a bit cynical about this. When I asked you, again, back in April, about the consensus of scientific experts, you said, "I can get a group of scientists together and pay them whatever I want to come up with any solution." What actually changed your mind here? It can't have been half an hour with Al Gore in your office today.

CLIVE PALMER: No, I've been in a long stage of consultation with members of the Australian public who have contacted me about the legislation that's gone before Parliament. I've considered it and I've consulted with other experts and talked to scientists. And there's no point doing that and listening to people if you're not prepared to change your view on certain things. I don't think we've got a drastic problem that we need to worry about; I'm sure we can manage it. But it needs to be a global problem. It's not a problem for Australia, it's a problem for the whole world.

TONY JONES: OK. Did Al Gore approach you or did you approach him? How did that work?

CLIVE PALMER: Well he approached me. He asked will I have a meeting with him in Canberra and he wanted to come here and see me. It wasn't Al Gore, it was his representatives in Australia. I said I was more than happy to meet with him.

TONY JONES: Before actually meeting him, you were forecasting this big change of mind. You only met him today, is that right? Have you met him before?

CLIVE PALMER: Yeah, I have met Al Gore before when he came to Sydney a number of years ago. But, certainly - though I met him personally today and had discussions with him today, I was focused on a lot of the literature, looking at this particular issue. And seeing, more importantly, where Australia fits in the global scene. President Obama's taken action in the US and so has the Chinese Government. They're our major trading partners. It's important that we operate in a global system or our economy'll suffer and we won't get the investment and the flows that we really need.

TONY JONES: I've got to ask you this: did that much-publicised dinner at the Wild Duck restaurant have anything to do with you changing your mind on climate change?

CLIVE PALMER: No, it didn't, but I know Malcolm Turnbull's a great supporter of an emissions trading scheme and he's crossed the floor twice in Parliament already doing that. So, I guess these are some of the differences you have in politics. That's why we have a great nation where we can all think different things.

TONY JONES: What did Al Gore say to you exactly that changed your mind?

CLIVE PALMER: Well it wasn't any one thing; it was a number of things he said to me over a long time about what will happen. I thought the most profound thing he said to me was that in 10 years' time, this'll be the most important decision for our planet and for our country. And Australia really doesn't have a large amount of carbon emissions on a global sense, but it can play a key role to be a catalyst to bring the US and China together. That's why we think our suggestion of an ETS, which is conditional upon other countries joining together, is what's best for Australia.

TONY JONES: Why shouldn't we regard this whole piece of extraordinary, admittedly extraordinary political theatre as nothing more than a stunt like your old boss Joh Bjelke-Petersen, feeding the chooks to keep them occupied?

CLIVE PALMER: Well you don't look like a chook to me, Tony, you look like a very skilled journalist and a very capable person. You're hardly a chook. You're hardly a chook, my friend/

TONY JONES: But only because I know what you thought just a couple of months ago, obviously we're a little bit cynical about this sudden change of heart. Is it about politics? Is it about becoming a true believer in climate change? What is it?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, you've got to approach an issue with an open mind and have a look at what's best overall. I mean, I'm not a 100 per cent convert to the carbon tax. We want to abolish the carbon tax because it's a very high price of carbon, much higher than international prices, it disadvantages our business. If we have to have an emissions trading scheme, it needs to be comparable with other parts of the world so that we don't lose jobs, don't lose manufacturing. But we can't put our head in the sand if this is a global issue that everyone's joining up for.

TONY JONES: Alright. Your senators plan to pass legislation repealing the carbon tax. Will that be contingent on anything? For example - on anything that you haven't told us so far. For example, on the Government agreement on an emissions trading scheme - will it be contingent on an emissions trading scheme?

CLIVE PALMER: Repeal of the carbon tax is contingent upon the Government bringing into law a system where the energy producers will refund the benefit to their consumers. So it's unfair to think we repeal the carbon taxes and electricity prices remain so high for Australians. So, that's what we're mainly concerned with on that particular bill. You've got to remember these are all 11 separate bills, they're not all interlinked.

TONY JONES: So - but you won't make your repeal of the carbon tax contingent on any of these other things you want to see happen? That's a critical question to answer tonight.

CLIVE PALMER: That's right, yeah.

TONY JONES: So Tony Abbott, when he negotiates you with tomorrow, going on what Greg Hunt is saying today, will be able to offer you fairly easily the kind of agreement that you've asked for. Does that mean you're now convinced you'll vote the carbon tax out of existence?

CLIVE PALMER: If that's the case, it is, and we'll then be bringing an ETS as a amendment to the Climate Change Authority repeal bill and seeing if we can introduce it that way to the Senate and have it passed by the Senate.

TONY JONES: So, can you just explain that one more time? Because you don't want the Climate Change Authority repealed, so how can you link the two things together?

CLIVE PALMER: Well it's the bill and we'll be amending that bill to introduce a ETS which'll only take effect on another country's operating an ETS into that bill.

TONY JONES: Yes, but you want to keep the Climate Change Authority, is that right?

CLIVE PALMER: As well, yeah.

TONY JONES: So if that is linked into a bill to remove the carbon tax, you won't be able to vote for it, isn't that right?

CLIVE PALMER: Well it's not linked into a bill to remove the carbon tax. It's an individual bill.

TONY JONES: Alright. OK. I think I've misunderstood you there.

CLIVE PALMER: Yeah.

TONY JONES: Will your repeal of the carbon tax be contingent on anything? Let's just get this straight. You've said - you very clearly said today you reject the Direct Action policies of the Government.

CLIVE PALMER: That's - absolutely.

TONY JONES: So you won't make your repeal of the carbon tax bill in any way contingent on that?

CLIVE PALMER: No.

TONY JONES: No. OK. The Greens have asked the obvious question: are you aware that the carbon tax is in fact the first stage of an emissions trading scheme? It is in fact legislated as an emissions trading scheme and can go to a flexible price as soon as someone amended it, or, as it's due to do next year. It is an emissions trading scheme already. Why do you need another one?

CLIVE PALMER: Well it's not, actually; it's a fixed price, it's a fixed price this year and the fixed price is probably around four or five times higher than the international price. It's cost us jobs and it's cost us enterprise. So that's just rubbish. There's no emissions trading scheme operating in Australia at the moment. That's just not true.

TONY JONES: No, the emissions trading scheme is built into the legislation. All one would have to do theoretically is to amend it to bring the floating price forward, which is what Labor attempted to do.

CLIVE PALMER: Well we'll just chuck it out.

TONY JONES: So, you want a brand new emissions trading scheme starting from the floor up. Have you got the legislation ready?

CLIVE PALMER: Yeah, we have, but we want to have a scheme which is conditional upon other countries and doesn't become operable until those countries do that, introduce a similar measure.

TONY JONES: So, in fact the scheme is zero-rated or your scheme is zero-rated, which means zero impact, so nothing would happen with your emissions trading scheme at all until what? Until all governments had national schemes exactly like that one?

CLIVE PALMER: No, we've already named in our press release the five critical governments that we see and that is China, the United States of America, Europe, Japan and Korea.

TONY JONES: And all of them would have to have identical emissions trading schemes to the one that you're bringing in. I mean, you're talking about creating a model for the rest of the world - is that what you're proposing?

CLIVE PALMER: Well we're creating a model and we're saying, "This is what the price will be determined of a major basket with our trading companies - trading partners." That's I think very important because we don't want it to impact on Australian jobs or Australian industry.

TONY JONES: Who is writing the legislation for your emissions trading scheme since a tremendous amount of effort went into creating an emissions trading scheme in the first place?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, the existing legislation in the carbon tax, a lot of that will be utilised in our amendment, but it'll be conditional upon what I've just said and of course the price will have to be set by a future government when that becomes applicable.

TONY JONES: Alright. The - Al Gore publicly congratulated you on your plans to reject any Government bills which abolish the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, the Renewable Energy Target and the Climate Change Authority. What changed your mind on those three bodies? Because I remember speaking to you about this and you were pretty sceptical about the Renewable Energy Target among others.

CLIVE PALMER: Well the Clean Energy bill, for example, is making money, it employs a lot of people. I just can't see the point in abolishing a successful commercial operation and putting people out of work and I just don't see a reason to do that. In relation to the Renewable Energy Target, Tony Abbott promised before the election he wouldn't touch it or abolish it and Tony Abbott's broken a number of promises and I think we should hold him accountable. He wanted to review it straight away. We've said that you shouldn't review it until 2016 after the next election so the people of Australia have got a chance to vote on it. So it's about accountability. We saw all the broken promises in the Budget and we can't allow this to continue.

TONY JONES: Well, Tony Abbott will tell you tomorrow, no doubt, that the Renewable Energy Target was up for review and they're reviewing it. Are you saying they don't have the right to do that?

CLIVE PALMER: I'm saying that he promised there'd be no changes to it before the last election. So, he's broken so many promises, you know, people forget their standards. We don't want a government that breaks promises, we want one that sticks with their promises.

TONY JONES: Now Christine Milne has asked: did you mean to include on the list the Australian Renewable Energy Agency or have you carved that out of the climate change agencies that you want to keep?

CLIVE PALMER: Well that wasn't one of the bills that we considered. The bills we considered were the ones we made the announcement on.

TONY JONES: Does that mean you just haven't thought about this one or you plan to think about it later?

CLIVE PALMER: Well there's no final decision on that one. We announced today the final decisions on a number of bills and we didn't want to confuse the Australian public by being too extensive.

TONY JONES: But are you prepared to consider that one because these are a suite of agencies which all work to one purpose?

CLIVE PALMER: Well not really. We'll have to have a look at that. But at the moment, I'm just answering your question: we haven't decided.

TONY JONES: Now the Climate Change Authority was set up to give independent advice to the Government on what targets it should set and to advise on what action other countries have already taken. So, are you prepared, in fact, since you want to keep this body, to be guided by its advice on what the target should be and what the price on carbon should be?

CLIVE PALMER: Well we're making it by reference to our trading partners and we're giving that body the responsibility of monitoring that and advising us when the preconditions are met to Parliament and to the Government for other countries adopting a similar scheme, so they'll have a very active role to play.

TONY JONES: Yes, but are you planning to change what the - are you planning to introduce legislation which changes what the Climate Change Authority does because they're an independent body set up to do those things I just set out. I guess what I'm asking you very clearly is: if they are an independent body that you value, would you take their advice?

CLIVE PALMER: Well I'm not the Government, Tony, but I'd be setting out some additional items for them to do and some additional work to the amendment and that's what we're working on at the moment.

TONY JONES: Well, you're not the Government obviously, but you're operating in a way to manipulate what the Government is planning to do, and in the case of the ETS, to design one yourself. So, I suppose, are you prepared to take advice from the experts?, would be the big question.

CLIVE PALMER: Well, I mean, as I said to you before, the ETS infrastructure is virtually designed in the present moment, a lot of work has gone into that, we're not throwing any of that away. So that's not truth to say that we're redesigning it ourselves. And certainly we'll take advice, but whether we'll decide to accept it's another thing. We'll listen to advice, we'll try to make the best decision.

TONY JONES: Alright. Do you value now, because you didn't before, the advice that you'll get from scientific and other experts in this field?

CLIVE PALMER: Well, we'll certainly weigh it up. When you get advice, you weigh it up. You may get advice on competing issues and you have to look at what's consistent and what's the best thing.

TONY JONES: But are you looking really at politics here? Are you looking what's politically palatable your - the people who might vote for you?

CLIVE PALMER: Not really. I mean, you know, I'm not a politician. I was elected, I guess, a little bit by chance, but I've got a high commitment to try to do the right thing to the best of my ability.

TONY JONES: It's impossible to separate out your climate backflips from raw politics, so let me ask you this obvious question: are you trying to put the Government in a position where Tony Abbott has to go to a double dissolution election to get key elements of his budget and his climate change policies through?

CLIVE PALMER: Well one of the most important things in politics is listening to people. There's no point listening to people if you're not prepared to change your mind and have an open mind. Our politicians should listen more than tell people what they should do. I'm trying to reflect some of the representations that we've had since we've been elected to Parliament and the ones that we've taken seriously, we've investigated them and we've come to a conclusion on these things. So, I'm trying to be transparent by announcing those things and Vice President Gore came here of his own volition to Canberra because he knew about that and he thought these were outstanding decisions for the benefit of the whole world.

TONY JONES: Yes, but you appreciate the political consequences of blocking large parts of Tony Abbott's agenda, his political agenda, his budget agenda, his climate change agenda? Much of this will be blocked as a result of your decisions. So I'm just asking you: are you anticipating that he might respond with a double dissolution election?

CLIVE PALMER: I don't think he'll do that and it's not the Liberal or the Labor way, it's the right way, that's what we want to do. And if he wants to do that, it's a matter for him. If I get defeated in the next election, that's a matter for the Australian people. But while I'm here, I'll do what I think's the right thing to do.

TONY JONES: Are you actually - in doing this and basically ditching your previous beliefs, as we saw at the very beginning of this interview and the beginning of this program, your previous interviews, are you seeking to reach out to a new group of voters who otherwise would not have voted for the Palmer United Party?

CLIVE PALMER: No, I'm just seeking to do what I think's the best for the country. And if people vote for us or not, that's not a consideration. I just want to do what I think's the best as a citizen of this nation.

TONY JONES: Speaking of citizens of this nation, Al Gore is not one of those. Returning to his extraordinary appearance: a US vice president standing next to you in the Great Hall of the Australian Parliament effectively endorsing a series of policies which go against what the elected government wants to do. A lot of people are going to see that and think this is interference from an outsider, unjustifiable. what do you think about that?

CLIVE PALMER: Well Al Gore, like me, is a citizen of the world and this is a global issue and he's concerned about what happens to our planet. I think he's quite entitled to do that. We'll have the Japanese Prime Minister in Parliament next week, I think, and he'll be expressing his opinion. Tony Abbott went to the US, he expressed his opinion and to Canada, we saw that. I mean, we have freedom of thought ...

TONY JONES: I think you can pretty much guarantee that none of those people will get up with a leader of a minority party and endorse a series of policies which go against what the Government wants to do.

CLIVE PALMER: Well I don't know. Al Gore is not a politician. He hasn't been in politics for a number of years. He's a citizen of the world and he had a strong point to put. He's down in Melbourne training people this weekend on other things. So, I don't think he's bound after - what is it? - nearly 14 years or so since he's been a vice president.

TONY JONES: Let me ask you another question that people will ask: did Al Gore come to Canberra to join you entirely on his own incentive or did you pay him in any way?

CLIVE PALMER: Nothing. Of course he didn't pay us. We would have liked to have got a donation for the Palmer United Party, but we weren't lucky enough to get one.

TONY JONES: So you were trying to get some sort of donation?

CLIVE PALMER: It would have been good if he wanted to donate to us, but he didn't want to.

TONY JONES: OK. Let's just clear this up though: you paid him nothing, because, I mean, ... ?

CLIVE PALMER: Zero. We bought him lunch, or dinner.

TONY JONES: Right. Now, finally, I've got to ask you: is this a brilliant sleight-of-hand to keep voters and journalists from focusing on allegations that $12 million disappeared mysteriously from a fund operating ports in WA, as alleged by your Chinese partners?

CLIVE PALMER: No, our Chinese partners want to come to Australia and bring over Chinese workers and undermine Australian working standards and have people work for nothing. That's why they're saying these things. They're not true at all. They owe us tens of millions of dollars. There's no money missing from anywhere. It's an invention of Hedley Thomas and Rupert Murdoch. It's just rubbish.

TONY JONES: Well it seems to be an allegation made by your partners that $12 million has gone missing from ...

CLIVE PALMER: Well that's just not true. There's no allegation made by them. There's no action taken by them.

TONY JONES: Can you sort that out for the public because it's on the front page of the major newspaper pretty regularly, this allegation. I mean, is it time to put these accounts ...

CLIVE PALMER: Well it's just The Australian.

TONY JONES: ... out there so people can have a look at this?

CLIVE PALMER: Well - I mean, no. There's no - I mean, if what they said was true, they'd take some action against us, wouldn't they? There's no action against us in any of these matters. It's just rubbish.

TONY JONES: Well the reports keep suggesting that the police are going to be investigating these matters.

CLIVE PALMER: Well what police? That's just a lot of bulls**t. So, people don't like me because I'm in politics and I'm happy to say what I think and I won't be intimidated by The Australian. It's good for fish and chips, but not much else.

TONY JONES: Falling iron ore prices, I should say, a civil war with your Chinese partners in WA, falling coal prices, huge ...

CLIVE PALMER: I don't know.

TONY JONES: Let me just go through some of these things. Huge coal assets locked down in the Galilee Basin, questions over the profitability of other key businesses. Are you, as some suggest, frantically juggling all of these things to keep the Palmer empire from falling apart?

CLIVE PALMER: I don't have an empire, Tony; I'm just a member of Parliament. I'm retired from my businesses. I couldn't care what happens to them, really. I've got - they say in the BRW my wealth's gone from $2 billion to $1 billion. I couldn't care if it was $100 million or 50 cents. I'm a citizen of this country and I won't be stopped by people saying all this rubbish about me, I'll just express my opinion. It's up to the people of Australia if they want to elect me. I'm a representative in Parliament of the Australian people.

TONY JONES: I've got to ask you one last question. Are you a story that no-one would believe if it was written as fiction?

CLIVE PALMER: I don't know, Tony. I'm just a human being, an Australian and my family's had a strong commitment to this country for a long time.

TONY JONES: Clive Palmer, we thank you very much for joining us. Always fascinating. A very dramatic day in Australian politics, an interesting one. We'll see how it pans out over the coming days.

CLIVE PALMER: It was. God bless you, Tony. You're a great journalist.

TONY JONES: No, yes, we won't go there. Thank you.