00:00

TO THE JOB MARKET, IT SEEMS TO BE THE LOGICAL WAY FORWARD. ALIX: IT IS SIMILAR TO A SOLUTION YOU POSED IN THE BOOK. A BASIC INCOME COULD EFFECTIVELY BECOME A BRUTE FORCE ALGORITHM. WHY IS THIS THE SOLUTION? SCARLET: WE ARE GOING TO -- GUEST: WE'RE GOING TO NEED A SOLUTION. THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO WORK THE WAY THEY WORKED IN THE PAST. WE ARE ENTERING A NEW ERA. THE ECONOMY IS GOING TO BE LESS LABOR-INTENSIVE. IF IT IS NOT ENOUGH WORK OR A NETWORK THAT PAYS WELL ENOUGH FOR MOST PEOPLE WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT SOLUTION, NOT JUST SO PEOPLE CAN SURVIVE BUT SO THEY CAN BE ACTIVE CONSUMERS DRIVING THE DEMAND REQUIRED FOR THE ECONOMY. JOE: IN YOUR WORK HAVE YOU DONE BALLPARK ESTIMATES OF WHAT KIND OF CHECK HE WILL GET FROM THE GOVERNMENT EVERY MONTH FOR BEING ALIVE THAT WOULD MAKE THE ECONOMY WORK? GUEST: ONE OF THE KEYS, IT WILL START OUT MINIMUM LINK -- MINIMALLY. HOPEFULLY IF YOU DO THIS RELATIVELY SEEING YOU COULD PHASE IT IN GRADUALLY AND INCREASE THE AMOUNT OVERTIME SO EVENTUALLY IT WOULD BE A LIVABLE INCOME. JOE: SOMETHING THAT TOBY -- HE WROTE A BLOG POST SAYING THE FOLKS WHO OWN THE ROBOTS WILL OWN THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION. LABOR POWER WILL BE KAPUT. THERE WOULD BE A BIG DEMAND PROBLEM. IT DOES SEEM LIKE IN THIS SCENARIO WHERE ROBOTS TAKE SO MANY JOBS, IN THEORY THAT IS GREAT FOR THE OWNERS OF THE ROBOTS BUT IF THERE IS NO DEMAND COMING IT WOULDN'T -- GUEST: THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY THINGS I FOCUS ON. YOU DO NOT HAVE CONSUMERS OUT THERE BECAUSE IT IS -- IT IS NOT CREATE CONSUMER DEMAND. RIGHT NOW THE MECHANISM THAT GETS PURCHASING POWER INTO THE HANDS OF CONSUMERS IS JOBS. IF THEY GO WAY WE NEED TO CREATE A MECHANISM. SCARLET: SILICON VALLEY IS LEADING THE WAY WHEN IT COMES TO THE DEVELOPMENT AND PRODUCTION IN THE TECHNOLOGY OF ROBOTS. HAVE THEY COME UP WITH ANY SOLUTION TO KEEP THE ROBOTS FROM TAKING JOBS? GUEST: I DON'T THINK THERE IS A WAY TO PREVENT ROBOTS FROM TAKING OUR JOBS. WE CAN RETRAIN PEOPLE BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO STOP THIS TECHNOLOGY AND WE WOULDN'T WANT TO. TECHNOLOGY HAS MADE US BETTER OFF THAN PREVIOUS GENERATIONS. THE LAST THING WE WANT TO DO IS CHANGE THAT. WE WANT TO ADAPT TO IT SO PEOPLE -- SO TECHNOLOGY CAN PROGRESS AND EVERYONE BENEFITS AT LEAST TO SOME EXTENT. JOE: THERE IS A MOVEMENT AFOOT TO RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE FOR EVERYONE. A $15 MINIMUM WAGE. OPPONENTS WILL SAY YOU ARE JUST GOING TO SPEED UP THE PACE OF AUTOMATION AND THE FAST FOOD PLACES WILL HIRE ROBOTS. IS THAT DEBATE KIND OF SILLY? IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT. GUEST: RIGHT. I WOULD AGREE ON THAT. THERE IS SOME SCAREMONGERING OUT THERE OF PEOPLE AGAINST THE MINIMUM WAGE. THEY WILL SAY ALL THESE PLACES ARE GOING TO AUTOMATE. I THINK IT IS INEVITABLE. PERSONALLY I SUPPORT RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE BECAUSE IN THE SHORT-TERM IT WILL MAKE PEOPLE BETTER OFF. THE LONGER RUN AUTOMATION IS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM ANYWAY. WE WILL NEED TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. SCARLET: THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING POSITIVE ABOUT THE RISE OF ROBOTS. GUEST: IF WE ADAPT APPROPRIATELY AND END UP WITH A GUARANTEED INCOME THAN IT IS AN OPTIMISTIC ALMOST UTOPIAN SCENARIO WHERE NO ONE HAS TO DO A JOB THEY HATE. NO ONE HAS TO A DANGEROUS JOB. PEOPLE HAVE MORE TIME FOR THEIR FAMILIES. EVERYONE IS BETTER OFF. THAT IS OPTIMISTIC. CAN WE GET TO THAT? ALIX: I'M SOLD. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. SCARLET: AUTHOR OF THE RISE OF THE ROBOTS, WE WILL BE RIGHT