<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

Personally I wouldn't have providing all 300M citizens basic health care excluded from the "limited role" government should have towards their citizens.

<<update>>

[[all 300 million citizens are not without healthcare]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 11>>

The solution isn't to be found in forcing a whole reform on a whole system due to negligence of one group of people. If we're going to have a bleeding heart for every unfortunate thing in the world, how are we to function? Probably reforming education in the US would be a much, much better and more efficient use of $900 billion.

<<update>>

There's always going to be those with and those without and this can't be avoided. We say, nominally, that we are all born equal. But in the end we are not equal because of the choices we make in life. The best we can do is afford the opportunity to everyone. Which the US currently does.



<html><hr></html>

[[really dude?]]

[[single payer.]]

[[Really?]]

[[paternalism sucks]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 7>>

I see, out of actual arguments again. And if you had a job I gueess you would have said so by now...

<<update>>

But of course you are right, the working class has always been very fond and supportive of self-proclaimed intelectuals sitting at home roaming the internet and telling them what they should think.



Really, you should go to a factory and hold a speech there.



<html><hr></html>

[[do you really want me to waste my time]]

[[hypocrisy is hypocrisy.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

did i not get the job done?

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 8>>

<html><blockquote>

aww, you are cute when raging. Just like a little kid.

</blockquote></html>

who said i was raging?



<html><blockquote>

Come to think of that kids also have very simplistic and "interesting" views of the world.

</blockquote></html>

look in the mirror, kiddo.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

But if you behave from now on I promise you a nice warm cocoa before bed time <3

</blockquote></html>

so clever.



<html><blockquote>

Seriously though, I've been called an idiot here countless times, surprisingly always by raged people who disagree with me. see: www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1751680

</blockquote></html>

ever consider that you might actually be stupid?



<html><blockquote>

Can't remeber if that ever happened to me in real life, though. Usually the opposite.

</blockquote></html>

probably because you're not nearly as inflammatory or provocative irl.



<html><blockquote>

So, I think I will let you know that the only time, I will accept someone's judgement about me, including calling me an idiot, is when they are a) not raged b) not disagreeing.

</blockquote></html>

neither condition affects the validity of the person's conclusions.



[[in discussions in real life are not in written form and therefore won't be brushed away that easily.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 30>>

I did, you are just unable to see it. (This is actually the second time, I answered the same question preemptitively a hile back)

<<update>>

You made up your mind to disregard my arguments and class them as pointless before actually reading them.



And since you see them as pointless you see the discussion as a waste of your time.



Which at this constellation it actually is, since you are unable to learn from my examples and arguments.



I actually wrote the very same thing a while back, when I wrote my realization that you didn't really participate, especially when you declared you simply want to complain about capitalism but not discuss the benefits.



There are two solutions: a) you continue like this and yes the discussion will be worthless and a waste of both out times b) you manage to read arguments and examples objectively.



And I doubt you are able to do b as shown by your constant insults which are really quite embarraring to see. Also I think that is quite ironic, since you try to advocate a system of cooperation while all you manage is confrontation.



How do you suppose you should convince other doubters of your idea if not through objective argumentation? Maybe force us for our own good?



But I am digressing, to answer your question with the same sentence I used in the last comment, which you were apparantly unable to understand:



"And since we now reached the same point where our two, divided, discussions started (although you have failed to contribute long ago), I will end my participation here"



There is your answer: No, as long as you are unable to revise your style of discussion it is utterly pointless.



[[yes or no?]]

<html><h2>G.I. Jonesy</h2></html>

<<set $score = 1>><<update>>

The government does not need to be in every aspect of your lives. In fact, the government needs to be in almost none of your lives. When you use a system like socialism or communism, and the government fails, you are fucked. If the government becomes tyrannical, you are fucked. Id software says the CPL can't use Quake anymore, the Quake community is fucked. Unfortunately, most Quake players are European socialists. With their total lack of personal control, personal liberty and personal initiative, Quake has all but died, with its only chance of resurrection coming from.... the government, as id software re-releases Quake 3 in the form of Quake Live.



So tell me, honestly, socialists and communists... how do you manage, every day of your lives, to lie down and take it up the ass? I'm only asking because if the United States completely loses its mind, which doesn't seem far off, I might have to learn.



I am not a conservative or a liberal. I am an American - a person of liberty. You don't force anything on me, I won't force anything on you. But I will defend myself in the case you attempt to force something on me, whether it be taxes, unjustifiable punishment, or anything else.



<html><hr></html>

[[you don't know what socialism is.]]

[[KILL A COMMIE]]

[[Americans whining because their president wants to make sure everyone can get medical care]]





<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

oh wow, America had soldiers in Normandy... amazing.

<<update>>

I also like the fact that you use one of the most flawed WWII movies in history to prove your point, which is?



Read why they ended up on the beaches of Normandy, you might learn something u stupid paki.



[[they came to free your ungrateful ass]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

nothing to do with stupid. But of course you always jump to a conclusion and add an insult. Man, I really have to learn that debate and ethics stuff from you...

<<update>>

Come on now, claim once more that I am going straight for the ad hominem again, while you just deliver solid arguments. Please, it's always so funny :D



<html><hr></html>

[[where is the argument]]

[[why don't you think workers should have any control?]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

video tape the speech please.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 0>>

<html><div class="quote">

<blockquote>the core principle of socialism is that workers control the means of production.</blockquote><br />

and if you had ever actually worked and met your average worker, you would soon realize that that is the dumbest shit ever :D<br /><br />

<<update>>

But go on, believe in your dream, not like it's ever gonna happen.

</div>





<div class="quote">

<blockquote>if you defy your master, then you will be left to starve or subordinate yourself to another tyrant.</blockquote><br />

then quit your job, and start working as a farmer and by that be you own boss, instead of leeching of my money.

See how you like the hours there...<br /><br />



<blockquote>not really, it's taken from the state. those taxes were essentially stolen and might as well be used to FUCKING HELP PEOPLE.</blockquote><br />

Oh taxes are used to help people and pay our police and our firemen and our teachers and so on. but why would I want to buy some lazy person food who can get his own?<br /><br />



<blockquote>like a boss who steals what you create and earns a profit off of it, without lifting a finger.</blockquote><br />

well, you obviously haven't got a clue about work organisation.<br /><br />



<blockquote>

is there like some kind of fox news in germany or some shit?</blockquote><br />

something similar if not as bad. However, I have unplugged my TV 5 years ago. But your brain seems to be seriously influenced by anti-capitalistic propaganda, way beyond you managing to think about the stuff yourself.

<br /><br />

I mean you have even failed to grasp what capitalism as a theory actually means. You seem to have no clue how work mechanics such as specialisation, organisation and (yes I'm gonna say the evil word) management function.

<br /><br />

Your contributions so far have painted you as a selfrighteous egoist, who would enjoy it if everyone paid for his lifestyle and is unable to feel bad about taking money form others without giving anything in return.

</div></html>



[[do you see the fox news line as a compliment?]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

<html><blockquote>

just to pick one:



I also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes. yeah, the whole "efficiency" argument which is more than debunked.

<<update>>

that is a good example of your understanding of debate. You don't bother to think about what someone is actually saying, you just assume what you think or have read somewhere is correct.



Whenever I do something even remotely similar (complexity of economic systems) you complain.

</blockquote></html>

1. that quote doesn't support any of the allegations against me, which came from you.

2. your "efficiency" argument is fucked



<html><blockquote>

You are measuring with two measures.

</blockquote></html>

you are sucking two dicks. (aka i don't understand)



<html><blockquote>

Any comparison to a theoretical system is flawed from the beginning.

</blockquote></html>

wtf theoretical?



<html><blockquote>

But discussing that would be an actual discussing, therefore a pointless endeavor.

</blockquote></html>

sucking dicks that would be an actual sucking dicks, therefore a pointless endeavor.



[[you already told me what you system of choice would be.]]

<html><h2>Eviili</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

OK, BUD!!



Were not the ones trying to change our system americunts are, as I said we are satisfied with ours...



also its not russia u dork, but slovenia...u probably never even heard for us



[[I don't care what part of Russia you're from]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 15>>

It's hardly that simple. How do you screen payments? How do you determine the doctors who are over-charging or doing unnecessary things (and thereby driving the costs up)? How do you properly deal with the doctors found to be overcharging or even doctors who are inept and taking payments for things they're not doing? How do you confirm that the medical attention sought was of the proper quality and not some voodoo witchdoctor new-age healing?

<<update>>

And don't say that these are hypotheticals that don't need to be addressed. Anything of this magnitude needs total and absolute consistency and well-playing.



It's not as easy as having one guy with a rubber stamp and postage paid envelopes sending out checks to doctors. The $900 billion represents $900 billion towards a massive, inefficient bureaucracy that acts as a middle man between doctors and citizens.



[[doing a heckuva job]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

you've got the causation backward.

<<update>>

the core principle of socialism is that workers control the means of production. if some economic model is called socialism, but doesn't adhere to the principles of socialism, then how is it socialism?



[[that is the dumbest shit ever]]

<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

I hear where you're coming from brother. Myself, I'm not for any of that "others take care of me" shit. You get ill, take care of it, you get shot, you take it out with a rusty spoon. Healthcare is for pussies.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

???

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

you said this:

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

It's basically like someone who comes into your home every evening and demands that you let him eat your icecream. And when you tell him to gtfo he declares that buying his own icecream is such a hassle.

</blockquote></html>

you pretty much equated someone getting welfare with someone personally stealing from you, which makes me think you got this straight from bill o'reilly. not trying to insult you or anything, but it makes me think theres some very anti-"lower class" propaganda in the corporate media there.



[[Why would you want to make a classfight out of this?]]

<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

Aha, so 50 million without healthcare are mostly people that don't want it(I mean why would they?) and the rest are people who are so "inept in self-management and prudence" that they don't deserve it anyway. There is no problem after all! Excellent analysis!!!

<<update>>

[[Deserving it has nothing to do with it.]]

<<set $score = "O">>

<html><div align="center">

W E L C O M E T O

<a href="#" onclick="javascript:state.display('Start2', this);return false;" style="background:none; text-align:center;"><img src="https://www.kentsheely.com/flamewar-deluxe/titleteal.gif" width="500"></div></html>

<html><div id="startButton"><a href="#" onclick="javascript:state.display('Start2', this);return false;" style="background:none; text-decoration:none; text-align:center"><img src="start.png"></a></div></html>

<<update>>



<html><h2>VoO</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Nice summary of Zeitgeist 2.

<<update>>

[[Didn't know there was a Zeitgeist 2.]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 43>>

No, I'm not. I'm officially registered independent. My personal opinions are independent. I believe association with political parties is a mark of an ignorant mind because people who say, "I'm such-and-such" are basically saying, "I don't know the issues, but this sounds good to me." To want to label yourself something is, as well, equally sad. You're saying the label itself is worth more than your own opinions. If I was to say, {"I'm a Republican" or "I'm a Democrat" to someone, they should thus already know, fairly well, what kind of political beliefs I hold and any criticism is a criticism of a whole system (i.e., of a whole political party's establishment). If I say, "I'm an independent", they know nothing about my political beliefs without inquiring and myself required to erudition on what I believe and they can then criticize what I believe without criticizing a whole system of thought. Thus political alignments act as a shield for a person's meek understanding of exactly what they believe.

<<update>>

And no, I'm not greedy. I'm fairly anti-materialistic and my tastes are simple. I spend most of my free time reading. But I believe, without reservation, that a man is to be measured by his actions and more importantly his rational and reason-based actions. A man of passions and no reasons, which represents, what I believe, the average America, is a pathetic creature.



Men so swayed by their emotions and passions is common today and which is why I believe imprudence to be so rampant and the main causation for people unable to take care of themselves. They make decisions based on their desires. Desire to drive a nice car, to wear the latest fashions, to have the nicest TV with the latest video game systems -- they are slaves to their desires which, in my opinion, is what is called in social psychology as "prestige imitation." In years past, when men like Voltaire ruled the popular culture of the late 1700s, the best prestige of men was intellectual, in reason, and in bohemian sophistication. But in our mass media society, the prestige imitation is the materialism of nouveau riche celebrities in popular culture.



So you can see why I don't have sympathy for people who can't take care of themselves because they won't admit responsible for their actions. This admitting to fault requires a reasonable mind and yet there aren't many of those out there these days.



[[I had someone ask me today]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

i was seriously responding to this sarcastic sentence:

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>Yes because a whole political philosophy can be defined by one domestic issue.</blockquote></html>



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 7>>

yeh awesome, that makes everyone get to know each other.

not.



and they do in the modern capitalist world?



There will still be resentiments between the communities.

Especially if there are problems, e.g. shortage of food or just a certain medicine.



There will also be many problem with envy, if one community works better than the other.



allegedly.

<<update>>

[[oh come on]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 32>>

Where did you learn your economics?

<<update>>

Valuation of currency depends on a myriad of things. Since the US went to floating fiat currency with Nixon administration (i.e., that the dollar isn't tied to the value of gold/silver like Ron Paul says it should be), that the value of the currency floats on the open market. The importance of this drives international trade. China keeps their currency pegged to a good trade value (from the US's perspective) so that Chinese goods are extremely cheap to import for the US and more expensive for the Chinese people themselves. Another measure of this "power of money" is what is called "Purchasing Power Parity" where a common, equivalent good is priced in a standard currency (if you're in US, the easiest perspective to take is from US$). So, for instance, you say that an "apple" costs the equivalent of $0.50 in the US but costs $1.25 in Sweden (I'm making these numbers up just as an example of the point).



Foreign exchange rates swing and sway because of open market trading of foreign exchange. Analysts sit around all day looking at different figures, the more obscure the better, to get an edge of what all the other analysts perceive to be a coming shift in the "risk" of a nation's currency valuation.



I think what you might be referring to (in your feeble attempt at making a point about the shady value of the US dollar) is the open market activities of the US Federal Bank. This is "termed monetary" policy and where the terms Keynesian and Classical economic models come from. In open market activities, the Fed will purchase or sell overnight Treasury Bills in massive amounts. So, in a purchasing move, they push out more "money" into circulation (i.e., into the hands investors, commonly large investment banks or hedge funds, that held the overnight ).



[[Continued...|Where2]]

FlameWar Deluxe - Score: <<print $score>>



<html><h2>crea</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

The dept of a country represents its wealth, not its dept! xD

<<update>>

[[The only thing of significance]]

<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

I can't figure out if he's trolling or just INSANE =/

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

Doesn't seem right to reduce an intellectual triumph as were the words of John Locke, Thomas Paine, and Thomas Jefferson to your feeble understanding of history. Well done, sir.

<<update>>

[[Oh give me a break]]

<html><h2>TAFKAagardenchair</h2></html>



I find it a bit strange that young people talk about socialism, capitalism and communism, away from history class. Me thinks very few politicians nowadays believe in isms or state ideologies anymore. And if so, they are dreaming about them at night.



In Germany we have a "GroBe Koalition" ('big coalition') between CDU and SPD, something like a shotgun-wedding between the conservatives and the social-democrats, the undecided voter being the father with the shotgun.In light of this awkward situation, this is a perfect time for small parties to go hunting for people that do not have a valid political orientation, voters that neither possess the intellectual means to shape a prolific opinion or who just don't care. In the case of "Die Linke" (a splinter party lead by a former GDR politician and a deserted social democrat) this will mean that they will gain massively and the big parties CDU and SPD will lose, perhaps being thrown into another big coalition again. The smaller FDP, the liberal democrats, that pretty much endorse something which you might call 'capitalism', have fallen in love with debating with Die Linke about social welfare and also position themselves behind the chancellor (CDU) at the same time. These politicians are like managers controlling the power, not much true ideology behind it anymore, with a few exceptions. More of the same coming up, including bad coffee and crappy soaps.



[[While I do think Gysi is a big populist and also should make the funding of his party public]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Sorry, but some things transcend their originating eras.

<<update>>

[[people like to pick and choose]]

<html><h2>azmo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

<3

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 16>>

Perhaps. Even better analysis would be finding those people and see exactly why the can't. My impression, that I got from working at a bank for 3 and a half years, is that people are absolutely imprudent with their money. And here in my medium sized town, the imprudence is rampant, even in those people you'd think had some sense. They have bluetooth ear-pieces and brand new Blackberries, drive nice cars, but collect welfare because they're only working 20 hours a week.

<<update>>

You don't resolve the personal issues and personal choices of a group of people by reforming a whole system to cork one aspect.



I'd like to know the figures where people are working 40 hours a week, being careful with their money and STILL not being able to afford healthcare. That would be a much, much better starting point to throw statistics from. Looks to me, from what I read, that only 1.5 million full-time employees lost their healthcare. Hardly seems like a crisis to me.



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 29>>

It's got nothing to do with deserving. By saying one person deserves this over another, it's implied that one person has some kind of basis that makes them more "worthy" of something and that the thing "deserved" is in limited supply. Anyone with medical problems IS worthy of medical attention (which is available equally to all people -- it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone that needs life-saving medical attention).

<<update>>

My point is that it's a backwards approach to reform an entire industry when, as all experts say, that the best approach is prevention and that the best prevention comes with eating and living healthy, but the vast majority of people that this reform targets (to help at the expense of everyone else) are people that are self-neglecting.



It is this rising tide of people who are self-neglecting that are driving health insurances price up (which, btw, is excessively over-emphasized since most people have only see a minor, negligible jump in their healthcare).



It's bizarre to think about years past when young people where taught Rand's Objectivism growing up (as my parents were in high-school and college): that the only person that will take care of you is yourself. But that kind of mentality is long gone these days in popular thought/culture. Now everyone feels that all other people are reasonable for them besides themselves.



What will happen when an entire population doesn't feel responsible to take proper care of themselves and instead relies on everyone else to take care of the??



[[So you think that the solution to your health care dilemma]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

<html><blockquote>

so let me get this straight:

<<update>>

First you get the impression I am trying to make you personally look stupid.



Then you decide that I suck at that, which is kinda weird, since I never did it in the first place.



Then you decide to make a fool out of yourself.

And then you complain about me being worse at making you look stupid than you?

</blockquote></html>

don't see a contradiction and i absolutely love how you ignored the content of my post and focussed on the benign comment.



<html><blockquote>

Also, I can't seem to find the old thread so no quote atm. Will provide if you find it.

</blockquote></html>

i've given you links to thread.



[[I edited it.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

answer the fucking question.

<<update>>

[[I did, you are just unable to see it]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 12>>

<html><blockquote>

did I put that in your mouth???

</blockquote></html>

it was analogously figurative. didn't mean that you were actually a criminal.



<html><blockquote>

comes from a German idiom. In this case it means that you look at your own statements in a different way that at mine.

</blockquote></html>

please start recognizing it in yourself, then.



<html><blockquote>

how about you stop accusing me of that?

</blockquote></html>

fuck off. if you're going to attribute statements to me that i did not make, then i will call you out on it.



<html><blockquote>

You called taxes stealing.

</blockquote></html>

yes.



<html><blockquote>

I called taking welfare without need stealing.

</blockquote></html>

yep.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

You said I may not call accepting welfare thievery because it is legal.

</blockquote></html>

nope. i never said that you couldn't say something and i never reasoned that it wasn't thievery because it was legal. i may have mentioned that it was but you may ignore that.



<html><blockquote>

correct me if am wrong, but isn't saying someone doesn't know what he is talking about synomynous with saying they aren't qualified?

</blockquote></html>

depends on the context. i suppose now would be a good time FOR YOU to clarify which definition of "qualified" you've been using, since there are multiple definitions.



<html><blockquote>

And even if it isn't, isn't saying "You don't know what the fuck you are talking about" a personal attack?

</blockquote></html>

yep, but that doesn't mean it's an ad hominem.



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

oh come on, you are not telling me humans are not capable of envy, are you?

<<update>>

[[i am not telling you anything i didn't say.]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

I had someone ask me today if philosophy was the same as pedarasty. I said yes!

<<update>>

[[???|???2]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 36>>

<html><blockquote>

what the fuck are you talking about? "very complex" is a nothing but a "subjective judgment", as you'd say, and the complexity of the orientation of people and capital, in a given economic system, have absolutely nothing to do with what we were debating in the previous thread.

</blockquote></html>

given the enourmous amounts of literature about the facettes of economic systems, I think it's highly doubtful that calling the topic complex is subjective. I also doubt that anyone whose articles oyu have read would cliam the subject is trivial.

<<update>>

Yeah, talking about persons getting money from welfare has nothing to with people and capital...



<html><blockquote>

"i did notify you of the names of the many fallacies you used, though. maybe you should read their definitions."</blockquote></html>

about the fallcies you wanted to see, it seems very much like you read an article (wiki maybe?) about arguments and simply thought you could use some of the definitions.

However, you completely missed the part where you have to give reasons for your opinion and resulting classification.



If I go ahead and declare you have the knowledge of a schoolkid and add a definition of schoolkid, you would demand that I give reasons for that, wouldn't you? Again, you try to be competitor and judge in one person. That is never possible.



That behavious actually becomes most obvious (as I said several times now), where you question my qualification, which I responded to with listing my eduction and questioning whether you had the qualification to judge mine.



You then concluded that my response was a personal attack, while your preceding judgement of me wasn't.



You even admitted that your ethics were subjective, but still insist that you are capable to judge objectively.



<html><blockquote>

it's pointless because your motivation is to make me look stupid and mine is to debate. there's a conflict of interest for you. you know if i started debating you seriously you'd just bitch out, like the last thread.

</blockquote></html>

My motiviation was to show that giving welfare to people who have the chance to get work but don't is stupid, yes. I also had the motivation to show that the economic system you propose is too idealistic und unrealistic and also that I think your view is too one-sided (which I do think you'd agree would be stupid), yes. I also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes.



But I very much think that is part of a debate.



I never called you personally stupid, that is something you would do.



Ironically, I think in this thread you did a way better job at making you look stupid than I could have ever done.



[[argumentum ad populum/appeal to authority]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 10>>

a stable economic system, that lasted for at least one generation, so long-term effects are known.

<<update>>

it was stable, but they were defeated in war. anyway, to answer you question, the israeli kibbutzim, most anarcho-primitivist societies and many anarchist communes all adhere to the to your conditions and to my egalitarian desires.



The system in the German Democratic Republic worked well enough in the first years, too. And went to shit later. How sure can you be the same would not have happened in Spain?



question isn't specific enough.



[[all the group you named are too small]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

poor victim, becks. we should all feel so sorry for you because you are blamed for a mistake you made.

<<update>>

[[poor Lo]]

<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

history? It's Saving Private Ryan, not McRyan or Ryaninoff you dumb commie.

<<update>>

[[oh wow, America had soldiers in Normandy]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 9>>

well, when it comes to the spectrum of socialism, the main groups are state socialism and libertarian socialism. there are some varieties of state socialism that i don't consider to be valid forms of socialism, as long as the means of production are controlled by the state and not the workers.(through federated unions or whatever) i happen to be a libertarian-socialist/anarchist/anarcho-syndicalist and think that it is the proper way for a society to organize autonomously. are you an anarcho-capitalist?

<<update>>

<html><hr></html>

[[I don't know what I am]]

[[Oh, if you don't consider them valid I guess they can't be]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 28>>

<html><blockquote>

seems like you are wasting your time anyway.

</blockquote></html>

i am. i'm pretty fucking stupid for wasting hours and hours of my time on someone like you.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

Both with commenting here, calling me neames, etc and also with all your reasearch.

</blockquote></html>

lol



<html><blockquote>

No, the end of the line for me is that you never accepted or understood(?) all the examples and arguments I stated about benefits of capitalism and tried to see them as my opinion or simply irrelevant. Note: You cannot claim a fallacy, on the grounds that you diagree.

</blockquote></html>

it's not my fault that you can't reason your way out of an open shoe box.



<html><blockquote>

No, if you want to see someone who is so obsessed with his own opinion the he cannot even look at arguments in an unbiased way, you just need to look into a mirror.

</blockquote></html>

you just need to look in the mirror, bro. cmon bro do it!



<html><blockquote>

Because ultimately the thing you do not see is, that is is always so much easier to bitch about the flaws of an exisiting system then about an theoretical system that mostly consists of general approaches and lack solutions for problems on the lowest level.

</blockquote></html>

how do we improve ourselves without identifying our flaws? the solutions have been here for 150 years.



<html><blockquote>

Because there is one premise in all those idealistic systems, which sound awesome in theory.

</blockquote></html>

quite a bit more than that, at least among the left-libertarian ideologies.



[[Continue...|i'm pretty fucking stupid for wasting hours and hours of my time on someone like you 2]]

<html><h2>Ignignokt</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

Oh give me a break. Great thinkers and all that but not everything is applicable to the modern world. Besides I don't think Thomas Paine would object.

<<update>>

[[some things transcend their originating eras]]

<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

I'm sure you know quite many bums who are living the american dream.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

newsflash: america is the nr.1 world superpower. how do you think they got to be that? by petting dolphins? idiot hippie

<<update>>

[[massive army > free medical care?]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

if you want to call it that, go ahead.

<<update>>

However in that case you /ragequitted several times.



[[when?]]

tourist



jonsey's first post reply. I am no longer a fan.



[[neg.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 0>>

<html><blockquote>

That humans are altruistic or at the very least rational beings, with the ability to make perfect long-term decisions for the greater good of all.

</blockquote></html>

that's a strawman. it would be like me saying that capitalism is a system whose premise is one that states humans are inherently evil. it's obviously false. socialists and anarchists of my ilk don't argue that we are naturally altruistic, but instead practice something called reciprocal altruism(aka mutual aid). there's a giant difference. i suggest you look it up. also we argue that social darwinism isn't natural to humans.



<html><blockquote>

Which is something that research has proven wrong countless times, see "The experiment" for example.

</blockquote></html>

read "mutual aid: a factor in evolution" by kropotkin.



<html><blockquote>

Another indication is the fact that if you look at it, capitalism does give everyone the opportunity to be altruistic and to make decisions that help everyone. It's just that people don't use them, but rather look for their own benefit.

</blockquote></html>

lmfao please explain.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

They do not aid the society in any way and do not contribute to the greater good.

</blockquote></html>

how do bosses? tell me how does capitalism help progress humanity?



<html><blockquote>

And as long as there are people who think it is ok to benefit from the others they will destroy any system based on cooperation and mutual aid.

</blockquote></html>

no shit. this is the most profound thing you've said. this is precisely what capitalists do. they benefit from work that they don't do and invest insane amounts of capital to prevent democracy. you're on to something, bravo.



<html><blockquote>

And since we now reached the same point where our two, divided, discussions started (although you have failed to contribute long ago), I will end my participation here (and just put a ":D" whenver yo write a funny again.)

</blockquote></html>

yeah, i "failed to contribute" by responding to every single point you made while you just whined and dropped out of the argument.



<html><blockquote>

p.s.: I will refrain from putting a childish insult, at the end, because I think everyone who reads your posts will form a personal opinion.

</blockquote></html>

lmfao, the rest of your post is loaded with childish insults. how does refraining at the end of the post add any weight to your arguments or credibility?



[[I have replied to most of those statements before.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

I don't think Croatia had even one billion :P

<<update>>

[[Thought he was American]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

poor Lo we should all feel sorry for yourself since you can't even see a mistake you made if it's thrown at you.

<<update>>

:(



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

:D

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

No, they did not.

<<update>>

They came because the public wanted revenge for the attack of Pearl Harbor and because it made the goverment look bad that they were attacked by the "japs".



The USSR already knocked on the doors of Poland when the americans, british and australians landed the beaches of Normandy. And no, im not russian.



[[you're just a clueless hippie.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 18>>

<html><blockquote>

POW! lol, i don't think any rational person wants their coworker, who wants to work and have food to eat, to get fired.</blockquote></html>

lol

<<update>>

yeah they do.



In the cases where those coworkers plain suck, fuck everything up so you have to correct their work or where they make mistakes that threaten the health of their colleagues.



e.g. I had a colleague once who had two car accidents at work in half a year because he was drunk during the day.

WE didn't want him to be fired as such, becuase he was good at his actual job. When he wasn't drunk.

Luckily for us the boss stepped and told him to get rid of his problem or consider himself fired.



That worked.



I doubt it would have worked if we as his colleagues had told him.



The rest of your statements are just your opinions and propaganda, so here:



:D



[[i can understand all of this]]

<html><h2>tbone</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

?

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

<html><blockquote>

Also I believe listing Kibbutz is not correct, because I don't think they adhere to all your principles. Imagine asking a Palestinean to move in with them.

</blockquote></html>

it's mostly pre-1948, genius. reading wiki is not rocket surgery.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

all the group you named are too small, imo.

</blockquote></html>

I believe it's commen sense that a community works the best as long as everyone knows each other. But at some point the group is too big for that and that is when you will get more and more problems.



federated communities, bruh.



[[yeh awesome]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 15>>

there is none, as in our previous discussion, which I did implied with the "again".

<<update>>

You didn't deliver back then, added insults and questioned my qualification, thus trying to invalidate my actual arguments.

When I called you out on the qualification, you got all defensive, blamed me for going "ad hominem" and accused me of bad ethics and lack of debate skills.

Additionally, you where attempting to impossibilty of being a competitor and the referee in one, by simply trying to brush away the arguments you didn't like, by claiming objective standards. While silmutaneously admitting you had very subjective ethics.



Yeah, that pretty much sums you up.



Have a nice day (and please don't forget to keep posting those funnies once in a while :) )



<html><hr></html>

[[delusional]]

[[are you saying i didn't produce any arguments at all, in the previous thread?]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

ahahahaha

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

i'm just playing your game, so why don't you go fuck yourself?

<<update>>

[[oh please, not again]]

<html><h2>Thorin</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Glad you admit it then.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

did free healthcare kill the nazis? didn't think so.

<<update>>

[[No, the USSR and the British did.]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

It is obvious that you have that opinion.

<<update>>

[[it is obvious that you're a fucking idiot]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 11>>

oh please, not again with this feeble attempt to turn things around. You were the first to start with the personal attacks the last time and you are again this time.

<<update>>

And of course you deny that and try to blame it on me.



So in fact you are just playing your own game again.



I am also very intrigued how constant name-calling fits in with your worker cooperation and mutual aid concept. I suppose it would turn into something like this:

"I say, we are all in this together and work together as a team of eqauls. And if you don't agree with my opinion how to run things, I'll fuck you up."



<html><hr></html>

[[here, you're insulting me]]

[[You were the first to start with the personal attacks]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 11>>

<html><blockquote>well, have you ever worked a real job?</blockquote></html>

<<update>>

yes.



<html><blockquote>If not, then that is no insult.</blockquote></html>



yes, it is. you set up a dichotomy where:



a.) i have never worked.



or



b.) i'm stupid.



it's pretty insulting.



<html><blockquote>But honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.</blockquote></html>

i totally disagree. i think people actually prefer to be the masters of their destinies.



<html><blockquote>Kinda egocentric to think you speak for all the workers and the labor movement, don't you agree?



But honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.



Especially, since labor movement was always about improving the life of workers within the existing system.</blockquote></html>

labor exists in all systems. it's not about just doing so under capitalism, specifically, but about improving working conditions entirely.



<html><blockquote>Since yo are so keen on wiki and internet articles..</blockquote></html>

poison the well.



<html><blockquote>..here's a quote for you: "An active and free labour movement is considered by many to be an important element in maintaining democracy and for economic development."</blockquote></html>

this is right in line with the shit that i've been regurgitating over and over.



<html><blockquote>So, in effect it is you who insults them for claiming you somehow speak for them.</blockquote></html>

not really.



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 8>>

Every time a loan or mortgage is approved in your bank or any other bank in the USA, it devalues every dollar in your pocket (through increases, incremental or otherwise of the money supply). If you're not free enough to hold on to your own money, you're not nearly free enough. To say nothing of the dubious legislation passed in your country since 9/11

<<update>>

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.

- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe



[[Where did you learn your economics?]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

i am not telling you anything i didn't say.

<<update>>

[[well, if people have envy and envy leads to problems]]

if ("document" in self && !(

"classList" in document.createElement("_") &&

"classList" in document.createElementNS("https://www.w3.org/2000/svg", "svg")

)) {



(function (view) {



"use strict";



if (!('Element' in view)) return;



var

classListProp = "classList"

, protoProp = "prototype"

, elemCtrProto = view.Element[protoProp]

, objCtr = Object

, strTrim = String[protoProp].trim || function () {

return this.replace(/^\ss+|\ss+$/g, "");

}

, arrIndexOf = Array[protoProp].indexOf || function (item) {

var

i = 0

, len = this.length

;

for (; i < len; i++) {

if (i in this && this[i] === item) {

return i;

}

}

return -1;

}

// Vendors: please allow content code to instantiate DOMExceptions

, DOMEx = function (type, message) {

this.name = type;

this.code = DOMException[type];

this.message = message;

}

, checkTokenAndGetIndex = function (classList, token) {

if (token === "") {

throw new DOMEx(

"SYNTAX_ERR"

, "An invalid or illegal string was specified"

);

}

if (/\ss/.test(token)) {

throw new DOMEx(

"INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR"

, "String contains an invalid character"

);

}

return arrIndexOf.call(classList, token);

}

, ClassList = function (elem) {

var

trimmedClasses = strTrim.call(elem.getAttribute("class"))

, classes = trimmedClasses ? trimmedClasses.split(/\ss+/) : []

, i = 0

, len = classes.length

;

for (; i < len; i++) {

this.push(classes[i]);

}

this._updateClassName = function () {

elem.setAttribute("class", this.toString());

};

}

, classListProto = ClassList[protoProp] = []

, classListGetter = function () {

return new ClassList(this);

}

;

// Most DOMException implementations don't allow calling DOMException's toString()

// on non-DOMExceptions. Error's toString() is sufficient here.

DOMEx[protoProp] = Error[protoProp];

classListProto.item = function (i) {

return this[i] || null;

};

classListProto.contains = function (token) {

token += "";

return checkTokenAndGetIndex(this, token) !== -1;

};

classListProto.add = function () {

var

tokens = arguments

, i = 0

, l = tokens.length

, token

, updated = false

;

do {

token = tokens[i] + "";

if (checkTokenAndGetIndex(this, token) === -1) {

this.push(token);

updated = true;

}

}

while (++i < l);



if (updated) {

this._updateClassName();

}

};

classListProto.remove = function () {

var

tokens = arguments

, i = 0

, l = tokens.length

, token

, updated = false

;

do {

token = tokens[i] + "";

var index = checkTokenAndGetIndex(this, token);

if (index !== -1) {

this.splice(index, 1);

updated = true;

}

}

while (++i < l);



if (updated) {

this._updateClassName();

}

};

classListProto.toggle = function (token, forse) {

token += "";



var

result = this.contains(token)

, method = result ?

forse !== true && "remove"

:

forse !== false && "add"

;



if (method) {

this[method](token);

}



return !result;

};

classListProto.toString = function () {

return this.join(" ");

};



if (objCtr.defineProperty) {

var classListPropDesc = {

get: classListGetter

, enumerable: true

, configurable: true

};

try {

objCtr.defineProperty(elemCtrProto, classListProp, classListPropDesc);

} catch (ex) { // IE 8 doesn't support enumerable:true

if (ex.number === -0x7FF5EC54) {

classListPropDesc.enumerable = false;

objCtr.defineProperty(elemCtrProto, classListProp, classListPropDesc);

}

}

} else if (objCtr[protoProp].__defineGetter__) {

elemCtrProto.__defineGetter__(classListProp, classListGetter);

}



}(self));



}





if (!("classList" in document.documentElement) && Object.defineProperty && typeof HTMLElement !== 'undefined') {

Object.defineProperty(HTMLElement.prototype, 'classList', {

get: function() {

var self = this;

function update(fn) {

return function(value) {

var classes = self.className.split(/\ss+/),

index = classes.indexOf(value);



fn(classes, index, value);

self.className = classes.join(" ");

}

}



var ret = {

add: update(function(classes, index, value) {

~index || classes.push(value);

}),



remove: update(function(classes, index) {

~index && classes.splice(index, 1);

}),



toggle: update(function(classes, index, value) {

~index ? classes.splice(index, 1) : classes.push(value);

}),



contains: function(value) {

return !!~self.className.split(/\ss+/).indexOf(value);

},



item: function(i) {

return self.className.split(/\ss+/)[i] || null;

}

};



Object.defineProperty(ret, 'length', {

get: function() {

return self.className.split(/\ss+/).length;

}

});



return ret;

}

});

}





History.prototype.display=function(d,b,a){var c=tale.get(d);this.history.unshift({passage:c,variables:clone(this.history[0].variables)});

this.history[0].hash=this.save();var e=c.render();e.style.visibility="visible";if(a!="offscreen"){var p=document.getElementById("passages");

for(var i=0;i<p.childNodes.length;i+=1){var q=p.childNodes[ i ];q.classList.add("transition-out");

setTimeout(function(){if (q.parentNode) q.parentNode.removeChild(q);},1000);}e.classList.add("transition-in");

setTimeout(function(){e.classList.remove("transition-in");},1);p.appendChild(e);}if((a=="quietly")||(a=="offscreen")){e.style.visibility="visible";

}if(a!="offscreen"){document.title=tale.title;this.hash=this.save();document.title+=": "+c.title;

window.location.hash=this.hash;window.scroll(0,0);}return e;};





<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

i didn't ridicule you based on your location on earth, i likened you to jamerio since clearly you both have similar way of looking at things. I have no respect for people like you nor do i have an interest in commenting on anything you said, more than I already have, that would be entirely pointless for both of us. take from it what you wish mate, i could care less.

<<update>>

[[Ahaha, how laughable]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 11>>

<html><blockquote>

here are some quotes from there:



it's like you got your debating "skills" from the white house. you assert the opposite and accuse others of your crimes.



here you are comparing me to a criminal.

</blockquote></html>

i was comparing you to the white house. don't put words in my mouth.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

but it's idiotic to equate legally receiving welfare, which is a DEMOCRATIC reform policy in germany, with thievery.



one ov several occasions where you use idiotic and similar words in reply to my satements.

</blockquote></html>

i was attacking your words, not you. i apologize if you took it as an insult. that wasn't my intention.



<html><blockquote>

It is also a prime example of you meassuring with two measures.

</blockquote></html>

i still don't understand what this means.



<html><blockquote>

You call taxes, which are obviously legal "thievery", however you declare that I may not call getting welfare thievery because it is legal. (feel free to apply any of your pro-discussion terms)

</blockquote></html>

no, i never argued that they were ok because they were legal. i've been arguing that they should be used as a democratic reform tool. if the people in germany want welfare, then they should have welfare. stop putting words in my mouth.



<html><blockquote>

questioning of my qualification combined with insults.

is that is not ad hominen, I have must confess I have no idea what is...

</blockquote></html>

i didn't question your "qualifications". i merely asserted that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. no argument=no fallacy.



[[did I put that in your mouth???]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

ah, with single payer the system hardly needs to be changed. everything remains the same except the government pays the bill.

<<update>>

[[It's hardly that simple]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

<html><blockquote>

I guess only with you high standards of ehtics and debating is calling someone an idiot a critique.

<<update>>

Most normal people see it as a sign of desperation.

</blockquote></html>

you looked pretty fucking desperate in the last thread.



[[:D]]

<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

Didn't know there was a Zeitgeist 2. The version I saw from a couple of years back focused on religion and war

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

why don't you fucking read the last thread, motherfucker? you changed the subject several times, resorted to fallacious reasoning, gave up and now you're just pathetically lying about it.

<<update>>

honesty>cuntery



[[as I said]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 7>>

<html><blockquote>

and how does that contradict capitalism?

</blockquote></html>

better wages, insurance, working conditions etc = higher production costs = bad for capitalists.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

I am very much of the opinion that unions are a result of capitalism!

</blockquote></html>

well, yes, but only because of how little power a worker has outside of a union. you're essentially arguing against capitalism. if capitalism was so great, then workers wouldn't have to form unions, against the wishes of their bosses.



<html><blockquote>

The workers can form them to get a better price (wage, work conditions) for their product (work force).

</blockquote></html>

no shit.



[[I think you are missing the whole picture.]]

<html><h2>Eviili</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 19>>

I dont feel that I need to present anything to a cunt like u anon, I live in socialistic society and im fucking proud of it we live good!!If americans are trying to copy-paste our health care system than its damn sure that its not cause our government would be tyrannical but it works.All Obama wants is to provide a health-care to EVERYONE not just rich ppl.U see the rich cunts in america started panicking cause they wont be able to exploit ur flawed health-care system.And this Jonesy guy is clearly a fucking airhead since he lives with a 20y lag in his head...comunism!?Theres no real communism on this world except on north korea, even in China communism is not the same what it was 20y ago, theire exporting/importing more then ever he should rather just stfu.Ah and not to forget there was this cool dude TITO which name was known all around the world.Everybody instantly knew hes from this yugoslavia...sadly this country doesent exist today but ppl here do say that we lived A LOT BETTER back then than we do now...



and not to forget that movie from Michael Moore was very interesting "sicko".Id recommend u to watch it!



[[think of America as something to strive for, buddy]]

<html><h2>crea</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Not really, no.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 9>>

you just have to convince me that i'm wrong and that your ideas are better/more ethically consistent/more intellectually consistent. i've had to change my mind A LOT over the last 18 months. i've gone from being a democrat to an independent to a libertarian(capitalist) to a minarchist to an anarcho-capitalist to, finally, an anarcho-syndicalist. i had to be wrong countless times to get to where i'm at and i'm very aware of my fallibility. i'm far more open-minded than you claim i am.

<<update>>

[[that may be so.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

how about you read what I actually wrote, instead of jumping to your own conclusions?

or do you not know the word "judgement"?

<<update>>

but yeah I should have expected this, after all most of your arguments seem to come from your vivid imagination rather than actual knowledge.



<html><hr></html>

[[i'm just playing your game]]

[[perhaps i should make you a shirt]]

[[which ones?]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

the corporate media in your homeland.

<<update>>

[[why in that context?]]

<html><h2><html><h2>becks</h2></html></h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

<html><blockquote>you and i both know that's complete bullshit."</blockquote></html>

<<update>>

not really.



calling me idiotic, comparing me to a criminal and questioning my famialiarity with the topic along with calling me a cunt was what you did first.



But I guess you "forgot".



[[quotes]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 31>>

the banks didn't get direct tax money, they got post dated checks that tax the economy now and will be paid back with tax money in the future. multiple generations of citizens are expected to pay for the losses of the banks. it doesn't make sense.



people are still in debt to these banks. nothing has changed on any substantial level. somebody covered in dog shit did a cannonball into a stagnant pond. we haven't applied an equal and opposite force to counter the depression of our economy, we've hurled a giant chunk after it.



banks got into trouble by loaning money to people who couldn't afford to pay their loans, so they sell those loans to other companies. here's some simple math for the process:



i have a $1,000 debt to some shitty bank. i pay the bank $150 and never make another payment. the bank sells my $850 debt to another bank for $400. that means that so far the loaning bank is $600 upside down on the money they loaned me. the bank that purchased the debt is now $400 upside down. everybody has spent too much money.



imagine banks being given printed money at the promise of future taxation to perpetuate this fallacious economic principle on a massive scale. please explain to me how i'm wrong.



this stimulus plan was messed up from the beginning by feeding the big banks directly. if you assume the stimulus had to happen, it would have been best if local and regional banks had received the money to purchase debts from the large banks, thus equalizing the distribution of cash throughout the country. banks could have then used the cash as leverage to buy homes and vehicles at a fraction of the cost of the original loan, and entice the public into taking advantage of it by reducing their debt, monthly payments, and interesting.



[[Continued...|the banks didn't get direct tax money 2]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

<html><blockquote>

In the cases where those coworkers plain suck, fuck everything up so you have to correct their work or where they make mistakes that threaten the health of their colleagues.

<<update>>

e.g. I had a colleague once who had two car accidents at work in half a year because he was drunk during the day.

WE didn't want him to be fired as such, becuase he was good at his actual job. When he wasn't drunk.

Luckily for us the boss stepped and told him to get rid of his problem or consider himself fired.



That worked.



I doubt it would have worked if we as his colleagues had told him.

</blockquote></html>

i can understand all of this, but it simply is not a sufficient justification for capitalism.



<html><blockquote>

The rest of your statements are just your opinions and propaganda, so here:

:D

</blockquote></html>

it's only a matter of time before you :D @ the whole discussion and give up. i told you so.



[[well, of course I would give it up eventually]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

we had that before (earlier this year?) so please let me rephrase.

<<update>>

a stable economic system, that lasted for at least one generation, so long-term effects are known.



The system in the German Democratic Republic worked well enough in the first years, too. And went to shit later. How sure can you be the same would not have happened in Spain?



[[it was stable]]

<html><h2>zalu</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

I don't know what I am.

<<update>>

Anarcho-Capitalism seems to me to be a very good "direction" that should be explored, but that's the problem: social and political philosophy can't get "tried out."



Under general consideration, I consider myself a libertarian, with most of the details to be quite pedantic.



[[points]]

<html><h2>stunt.us</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

they run our whole lives anyways. so who gives a fuck.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 9>>

that may be so.

<<update>>

But imo three reasons speak against it:



I find that is harder to convince people of something they once thought themselves as opposed to convincing them of something new.

I find that people change their mind more readily on their own either by reading or listening. Not in a discussion.

I find discussions in written form are even worse then spoken ones.



[[your experiences probably do not accurately represent those that others have.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

you're pretty fucking delusional.

<<update>>

[[It is obvious that you have that opinion]]

<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 9>>

Americans whining because their president wants to make sure everyone can get medical care...

<<update>>

oh my, this MUST be socialism!!!!! - Europeans are fucking laughing their asses off when we watch you guys with random banners protesting in front of the White house.



Go shoot at something u hillbillies... Wait... Is that a banjo i keep hearing?!



You don't force anything on me, I won't force anything on you.

Yup, America never forced anything on anyone! Korea, Vietnam & Iraq .. whats up?



<html><hr></html>

[[Good grief, man. He's a troll.]]

[[newsflash:]]

<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

The only thing of significance you're really saying is that the wealthier one is, the more indebted they have the potential to be.

<<update>>

[[I know, it's weird that someone would think like that]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

Philosophies, by definition, are a unifying of separate issues into one compact mode of thought. So yes, idd.

<<update>>

[[Glad you admit it then.]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

And why shouldn't the Government listen? The corporate America is the source of the majority of the Governments revenue (i.e., corporate income taxes). Fuck, Exxon alone paid enough in taxes last year to run all the entitlement, education, and law enforcement programs in the entire state of Vermont for a year.



[[the idea of capitalism]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 31>>

the idea of capitalism is that companies give their money to private banks, and those private banks fund new ventures with excess capital. ideally, failing corporations would have to appeal to a bank with a solvent business plan in order to receive further funding, and the bank would have to consider the plan along with all other unrelated expenses to determine if the obvious risk is worth the potential return.



'the government' (whatever that means) should listen to corporations. corporations are comprised of people, and the united states federal government in particular was designed to limit the potential for violations of various civil liberties mutually agreed upon by the people of the country as being fair. what the government should not do, however, is insure businesses against failure by reallocating currency via legislation.



capitalism is a great system for contributing to social progress insofar as opportunism is limited by the fear of risk. when corporations (banks included) have no calculated risks, there is no speculative reason to operate economically, because economy essentially does not exist.



it's a great idea to have a reservoir in case of drought, but i would argue it's simply not fair to use the reservoir when there is no drought to give liquidity to those who drank for more than the sake of quenching their thirst, especially when the source of the water to fill the reservoir comes from that which was collected by others who were responsible and considered the liberties of others by not overindulging then requesting an arbitrary authority invest itself with the power to take from others so that they may drink again now that they have no water and have finally again become thirsty.



[[I agree. However...]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

when?

<<update>>

[[beginning of the thread.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

<html><blockquote>

in that case my attacks we also just objective conclusions.

</blockquote></html>

are you implying that i have claimed to be objective?

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

seriously, though.



Why would you ask such a question out of the blue?

</blockquote></html>

because i am seriously concerned.



<html><blockquote>

No, if you don't see what the statement implies you are less smart that I think you are.

</blockquote></html>

i do, but you're drawing the wrong conclusion.



[[you are concerned about what?]]

<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 18>>

Just put some numbers in your equation and it's clear

<<update>>

90 = 100 * (1 - 0.1)



with the equation I gave, u deduct the initial deposit from the total to see all the newly created money. Your equation is finding the amount the bank can lend for a single loan application, when we already know what the fractional reserve percentage is :/



Remember, the new money created usually ends up at another bank, who then create up to 90% of the original deposit (which in itself is newly created) as new money and lend that out, and so on and so on, inflating every single deposit by up to a factor of 10 (if the fractional reserve percentage is 10%). The currency needs to be backed by something, for even if you took away money creation from the banks, who's to say the government wouldn't abuse it just the way the banks are?



edit: I'm not dividing the initial deposit, I'm multiplying it. (1 / 0.1) where 0.1 represents the fractional reserve percentage. With 12 percent that part of the equation would read (1 / 0.12)



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

it is called trolling :)

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Thorin</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 4>>

Protester: You can arrest me as a terrorist without trial, stop me playing poker, control which chemicals I can intake in my own home but you'll never take my guns or make me pay for some black guy's baby to get medical treatment. This MURKA boy!

<<update>>

[[a whole political philosophy was just explained]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

Like I said before, it has NOTHING to do with deserving. Who deserves what is besides the point.

<<update>>

[[If that's not your argument against it, what is?]]

<html><h2>iniiiiiiii</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Oh, if you don't consider them valid I guess they can't be.

<<update>>

[[you've got the causation backward.]]

<html><h2>tourist</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

they came to free your ungrateful ass, at least you could show some respect.

<<update>>

[[No, they did not.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

<html><blockquote>

rest of the post: :D

</blockquote></html>

this is going nowhere fast.

<<update>>

[[well, I said earlier]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

???

<<update>>

[[the system hardly needs to be changed]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Eviili doesn't understand humour. He'll respond eventually.



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>iNkind</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

There is your answer: NO, as long as you are unable to revise your style of discussion it is utterly pointless.

<<update>>

[[pretty vague condition]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

Which is more important: life or bankruptcy? Furthermore, if it's life-threatening, a hospital HAS to treat you regardless if you can pay for it.

<<update>>

Besides, you're better off stopping the bomb from becoming than trying to stop the explosion from destroying. The less people are made to be responsible for themselves the less they will actually be responsible.



[[Lemme guess, you're a 'libertarian', aren't you?]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 10>>

<html><blockquote>oh please, not again with this feeble attempt to turn things around. <b>You were the first to start with the personal attacks the last time and you are again this time.</b></blockquote></html>

you and i both know that's complete bullshit.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>And of course you deny that and try to blame it on me.</blockquote></html>

exactly what did i blame on you?????



<html><blockquote>So in fact you are just playing your own game again.</blockquote></html>

honestly, you weren't trying to debate in the last thread and in this thread you're just trying to make me look stupid so that you can save face. i really want you to leave me the fuck alone, unless you can actually put some effort into the discussion. i tried calling you an idiot over and over, WHICH YOU ARE, but you don't fucking get it. that's the game i'm playing.



<html><blockquote>I am also very intrigued how constant name-calling fits in with your worker cooperation and mutual aid concept.</blockquote></html>

yea, it didn't work too well.



<html><blockquote>I suppose it would turn into something like this:<br />

"I say, we are all in this together and work together as a team of eqauls. And if you don't agree with my opinion how to run things, I'll fuck you up."</blockquote></html>



[[I guess you 'forgot']]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 6>>

<html><blockquote>

Why would you want to make a classfight out of this?

</blockquote></html>

i'm not TRYING to make it that way.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

I am not anti lower class at all.

</blockquote></html>

i'm not saying you are.



<html><blockquote>

But I don't consider the people who do that part of the lower class. The stereotype of a lower class is for me someone who works badly paid jobs or at least wants to work.

</blockquote></html>

i kind of see it as: there are those of us who are forced to work to survive and those who aren't.(not talking about people on welfare)



<html><blockquote>

Just like you probably won't consider a rich person who gives everything he owns away to safe the company and with is the work place a prototype of the "rich class" do you?

</blockquote></html>

i kind of take the marxist pov on this. you know, the proletariat/bourgeoisie dichotomy?



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 12>>

His materialism was implicit in what he describes as a dream (probably the way he sees it, it is a dream to him), it goes without saying. He speaks of classes, of transcending them, for what are classes defined as if not by the accumulated material wealth of people?

<<update>>

I agree on your posts about the health care situation in the US.



If his statements about luxury and the american dream would have first included those who find happiness in life, it would've been a much better (and less materialistic answer).



For it is said there are two common ways to become materially rich: 1) by making a lot of money or 2) by not spending a lot of money. But it is richness in life that is the true wealth of man.



<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]

<html><h2>KitesAreFun</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

I've read it's a lot closer to fifteen million for people that actually CAN NOT get Health Insurance.

<<update>>

[[Perhaps.]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 7>>

I don't think you're going to waste your time either. You clearly don't have any ground to stand on -- the cliches and platitudes on which your "thought" is based don't do well enough against actual thought based on real knowledge and intellect (e.g., like the logic that becks just rubbed off on your face).

<<update>>

becks just owned you. Just move on with your life... you'll get over it eventually after the rage has subsided.



<html><hr></html>

[[ahahahaha]]

[[Not really, no.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 11>>

<html><blockquote>

I mean you don't even seem to realize that an economic system is very complex so it not only can but must be examined from very different angles.

</blockquote></html>

what the fuck are you talking about? "very complex" is a nothing but a "subjective judgment", as you'd say, and the complexity of the orientation of people and capital, in a given economic system, have absolutely nothing to do with what we were debating in the previous thread.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

You simply declared that was fallacious, without any reasoning to back you subjective judgement.</blockquote></html>

i did notify you of the names of the many fallacies you used, though. maybe you should read their definitions.



<html><blockquote>

ergo: discussions of complex topics with you are pointless.

</blockquote></html>

it's pointless because your motivation is to make me look stupid and mine is to debate. there's a conflict of interest for you. you know if i started debating you seriously you'd just bitch out, like the last thread.



[[I think it's highly doubtful that calling the topic complex is subjective]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

you don't know what socialism is.

<<update>>

<html><hr></html>

[[you don't know what socialism can be]]

[[True socialism can only exist with utmost liberty]]

<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 39>>

Your stance has everything to do with who you consider worthy of health care. Those, who as you have put it, a) are inept, b) have poor self management skills, c) don't eat their vegetables - have themselves to blame. Ergo; deserving of the consequences.

<<update>>

So you think that the solution to your health care dilemma is not fixing the system itself but to increase awareness and preventiveness in eating right, exercising and taking of yourself.



That's generally sound advice. But are there any of your experts naive enough to think this is a practical solution to your dilemma that is probably the worst health care system in the western world in the richest country in the western world? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. In any case I'd like to see those experts credentials. My experts say that even in some bizarro fantasy world where that sort of thing would be efficient it doesn't tackle the numerous conditions and accidents that can occur in a lifespan that require medical assistance and have absolutely nothing to do with negligence. But you don't mention that. So that's not really what you're saying, or I hope it isn't unless you're trolling me big time.



You feel the problem is with the citizens and not the system; citizens have a responsibility to take care of themselves and there shouldn't be any meddling from the government to assist them if need be. Unless they've earned it by having money of course. According to your last paragraph that would lead to a less than ideal society. I think you're being overly paranoid, look at countries that have free health insurance. Have those countries succumbed to nations of lazy bums with bad standards? Of course not. Ridicilous.



Basically you put the entire blame on the people who are too incompetent to take care of themselves and no blame at all on the government or the insurance companies. What a wonderful, obedient citizen.

<html><blockquote>

medical attention (which is available equally to all people -- it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone that needs life-saving medical attention).

</blockquote></html>

First you make the assertion that medical attention is equally available to all people, as reasoning you explain that it is illegal for hospitals to turn anyone away that needs life-saving medical attention. I'm too tired to look up what fallacy you're using.



<html><hr></html>

[[The last part is factual]]

[[Exactly.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 16>>

<html><blockquote>

ever consider that you might actually be stupid?

</blockquote></html>

yes, several times. And of course I do make mistakes. But when I see how many problems other people have and how often they are wrong (objectively, not subjectively) I know I am not.

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

probably because you're not nearly as inflammatory or provocative irl.</blockquote></html>

for one thing, in discussions I behave very much the same. I have had several friendly discussion on here as well as in real life. But if someone simply keeps brushing away my arguments and then questions my knowledge I will respond very clearly (provocative if you want). The difference is that in discussions in real life are not in written form and therefore won't be brushed away that easily.



So, I have to react like that a lot less.



Also, I didn't actually mean the "idiot" calling, but the stupid. Because, what I do get are comments like "why the hell do you know all that..." etc. and people asking my for advice on various topic.



rest of the post: :D



[[this is going nowhere fast.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

<html><blockquote>So, in effect it is you who insults them for claiming you somehow speak for them. That is not so.

<<update>>

But honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.</blockquote></html>

fucking idiot.



[[I see, out of actual arguments again]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

i'm sure you think people are too stupid to have any control over their lives, fucking douche. i don't need you to convince me any further of how much you hate people.

<<update>>

[[nothing to do with stupid.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 13>>

just to pick one:

<<update>>

<html><blockquote>

I also gave examples of benefits of capitalism to show that calling it all bad is stupid, yes.

yeah, the whole "efficiency" argument which is more than debunked.

</blockquote></html>

that is a good example of your understanding of debate. You don't bother to think about what someone is actually saying, you just assume what you think or have read somewhere is correct.



Whenever I do something even remotely similar (complexity of economic systems) you complain.



You are measuring with two measures.



Just for the factual basis. Efficiency is a relative measurement. Therefore capitalism will need to be compared to an existing system to be declared more, less or equally efficient.



Any comparison to a theoretical system is flawed from the beginning.



But discussing that would be an actual discussing, therefore a pointless endeavor.



[[you are sucking two dicks.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

<html><blockquote>

You were the first to start with the personal attacks the last time and you are again this time.

<<update>>

if you had ever actually worked and met your average worker, you would soon realize that that is the dumbest shit ever

</blockquote></html>

here, you're insulting me, every working class person and the labor movement that has been going on for the last century and a half. now fuck off.



[[well, have you ever worked a real job?]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

idd

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

I edited it.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 17>>

Ahaha, how laughable. Your arguments are reduced to "insults" when you have nothing left to say to defend your arguments (or whatever consists of what little "argument" you had). Pathetic. And it's quite common on these forums but you're especially inept.

<<update>>

Open your eyes, read a fucken book. Better yet, read some fucken philosophy. Read some Hobbes, Locke, Spinoza, Russell, read some history surrounding both the American AND French Revolutions and then come back here see what you think of lolograde's posts (and I'd be entirely impressed by your denseness if you could still hold your current opinions). If you had the slightest wit about the different forms of government, their intellectual developes in history, and their main components of logic, you'd see exactly where the arguments are and wouldn't have people spoonfeeding you information on the net.



Right now you just look like an ignorant fucktard without a clue as to what, exactly, your opinions even are.



[[please don't make me explain]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

<html><blockquote>

because i am seriously concerned.

</blockquote></html>

about what?

<<update>>

[[the corporate media]]

<html><h2>hnns</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 8>>

daryl, please don't make me explain how much of a hypocrite you are.

<<update>>

no amount of philosophers will make me change my mind about lolograde's stance on who "deserves" health care and who doesn't. i have no interest in conversing with someone like that. i realize you're way too thick and self-centered in your own little world to understand that. maybe if you actually lived a life that included interacting with real people you would, as it is you're too afraid.



[[It's got nothing to do with deserving]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 38>>

seems like you are wasting your time anyway. Both with commenting here, calling me neames, etc and also with all your reasearch.

<<update>>

No, the end of the line for me is that you never accepted or understood(?) all the examples and arguments I stated about benefits of capitalism and tried to see them as my opinion or simply irrelevant. Note: You cannot claim a fallacy, on the grounds that you diagree.



No, if you want to see someone who is so obsessed with his own opinion the he cannot even look at arguments in an unbiased way, you just need to look into a mirror.



Because ultimately the thing you do not see is, that is is always so much easier to bitch about the flaws of an exisiting system then about an theoretical system that mostly consists of general approaches and lack solutions for problems on the lowest level.



Because there is one premise in all those idealistic systems, which sound awesome in theory. That humans are altruistic or at the very least rational beings, with the ability to make perfect long-term decisions for the greater good of all. Which is something that research has proven wrong countless times, see "The experiment" for example.

Another indication is the fact that if you look at it, capitalism does give everyone the opportunity to be altruistic and to make decisions that help everyone. It's just that people don't use them, but rather look for their own benefit.



Which finally leads us back to people who decide freely to quit working and get welfare. They do not aid the society in any way and do not contribute to the greater good.

And as long as there are people who think it is ok to benefit from the others they will destroy any system based on cooperation and mutual aid.



And since we now reached the same point where our two, divided, discussions started (although you have failed to contribute long ago), I will end my participation here (and just put a ":D" whenver yo write a funny again.)



p.s.: I will refrain from putting a childish insult, at the end, because I think everyone who reads your posts will form a personal opinion.



<html><hr></html>

[[answer the fucking question.]]

[[i'm pretty fucking stupid for wasting hours and hours of my time on someone like you]]

<html><h2>reslox</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

you haven't taken in a single word that he's said

<<update>>

[[I can't figure out if he's trolling]]

<html><h2>cyan</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

I know hes trollin'



But i can't take anymore Americans and their "we are gods" bullshit.

<<update>>

[[Just ignore them.]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 3>>

I guess only with you high standards of ehtics and debating is calling someone an idiot a critique.

<<update>>

Most normal people see it as a sign of desperation.



<html><hr></html>

[[read what you said.]]

[[you looked pretty fucking desperate]]

<html><h2>tbone</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

Sigh. I hope there won't be another response.



[[Eviili doesn't understand humour]]

<html><h2>pakalolo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

Good grief, man. He's a troll. Can't believe you're taking his post seriously...

<<update>>

And on the health care reforms in the US, I believe it's more or less about sticking to the founding philosophy (which has worked well enough), that the government should have a limited role in managing the lives of the citizens.



<html><hr></html>

[[I know hes trollin']]

[[This MURKA boy!]]

[[an agrarian society is a good model]]

[[Personally I wouldn't have providing all 300M citizens basic health care excluded from the limited role government should have towards their citizens]]

[[who gives a fuck.]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

yes or no?

<<update>>

[[There is your answer]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

I have replied to most of those statements before.

I will do it not again.

<<update>>

[[sounds like someones /raqequitting]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>



the business lobby is strong in this one :(

azmo



Jonesy is.

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>



read what you said. oh, that's right. you don't listen to people who disagree with you.

<<update>>

[[how about you read what I actually wrote]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

well, of course I would give it up eventually. I could have told you that from the very beginning.

<<update>>

The chance of you ever either changing your opinion or stopping replying are next to zero, because you are after all a fanatic.



[[you just have to convince me]]

<html><h2>Lo</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 1>>

i.e., you're not ever going to accept any critiques, fuckface.

<<update>>

[[I guess only with you high standards of ehtics and debating is calling someone an idiot a critique.]]





<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 2>>

you don't know what socialism can be. don't be such a condescending adherent to temporally sensitive ideas.

<<update>>

<html><hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2">

<span class="final">»»»»»»»» THREAD OVER!! ««««««««</span>

<hr class="bord1"><hr class="bord2"></html>

YOUR SCORE: <<print $score>>

<html></html>

[[«« Restart|Start]]



<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 5>>

I did not mean it as a condition I am asking you to amend, but rather a conclusion.

<<update>>

So to answer your second question, this thread and more half of the old thread, more exactly the point where you decided you would exclude certain arguments based solely on your subjective judgement.



[[why don't you fucking read the last thread]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>



While I do think Gysi is a big populist and also should make the funding of his party public (former SED property), labelling him a GDR politician does give a wrong message.



The only thing I find interesting about this year's vote is if for some mistake the pirates get 5% and whether that will make the bigger parties move a little more.



Well of course in the long run I am hoping we won't have black-yellow. But then again I guess I would be one of those who would profit from the lower income tax and no minimum wage they advertise.



But of course that will fuck Germany's finance up even more and their lobbying for Atomic power without ever suggesting reliable solutions for storage might just lead to me leaving this country...



[[No minimum wage?]]

<html><h2>becks</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 13>>

well, have you ever worked a real job?

<<update>>

If not, then that is no insult.



But honestly, everyone who works and looks around with open eyes will tell you the same.



Kinda egocentric to think you speak for all the workers and the labor movement, don't you agree? Especially, since labor movement was always about improving the life of workers within the existing system. Since yo are so keen on wiki and internet articles, here's a quote for you: "An active and free labour movement is considered by many to be an important element in maintaining democracy and for economic development."

So, in effect it is you who insults them for claiming you somehow speak for them. That is not so.



<html><hr></html>

[[fucking idiot.]]

[[you set up a dichotomy]]

<html><h2>Anonymous</h2></html>

<<set $score = $score + 18>>

I agree. However, I believe the real problem is that "too big to fail" is a true feature of the largest corporations. AIG, being a counterparty to so many massive credit-default swaps, was literally the hinge at which trillions of $$$ rested.



Companies shouldn't be bailed out at the expense at the tax-payer, HOWEVER, the government shouldn't cut of it's nose to spite it's face. In this regard, AIG was a required bailout, which, otherwise, would have deftly crippled the economy and sent hundreds of large companies and banks into bankruptcy overnight otherwise. And don't think that the financial industry hasn't learned a lesson here: once bitten, twice shy.



The regulators need to look towards those companies that are "too large to fail" that are still alive right now and start talking about breaking them up like AT&T into the RBOCs in '84. (CitiGroup, Bank of America, CountryWide come to mind).



"Economies of Scale" be damned. Besides, the added competition will help drive innovation.



[[the banks didn't get direct tax money]]

/* https://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/

v2.0 | 20110126

License: none (public domain)

*/



html, body, div, span, applet, object, iframe,

h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p, blockquote, pre,

a, abbr, acronym, address, big, cite, code,

del, dfn, em, img, ins, kbd, q, s, samp,

small, strike, strong, sub, sup, tt, var,

b, u, i, center,

dl, dt, dd, ol, ul, li,

fieldset, form, label, legend,

table, caption, tbody, tfoot, thead, tr, th, td,

article, aside, canvas, details, embed,

figure, figcaption, footer, header, hgroup,

menu, nav, output, ruby, section, summary,

time, mark, audio, video {

margin: 0;

padding: 0;

border: 0;

font-size: 100%;

font: inherit;

vertical-align: baseline;

}

/* HTML5 display-role reset for older browsers */

article, aside, details, figcaption, figure,

footer, header, hgroup, menu, nav, section {

display: block;

}

body {

line-height: 1;

}

ol, ul {

list-style: none;

}

blockquote, q {

quotes: none;

}

blockquote:before, blockquote:after,

q:before, q:after {

content: '';

content: none;

}

table {

border-collapse: collapse;

border-spacing: 0;

}



li#credits {display:none;}



body {background:#000; font-family:"Lucida Console", Monaco, courier, "Courier New", arial, sans-serif;}



.content {background:#000; padding:10px 10px 25px 10px; border:2px solid #00A8A8; line-height:22px; font-size:16px;



color:#00A8A8; font-weight:bold;}



#passages {border:none;}



#sidebar {padding:0 !important; width:100%; height:22px; position:absolute; top:0; left:0; background:#aaa; font-family:"Lucida Console", Monaco, courier, "Courier New", arial, sans-serif;}



#sidebar li {display:inline; float:left; color:#fff; font-family:"Lucida Console", Monaco, courier, "Courier New",



arial, sans-serif; text-transform:uppercase;}



#sidebar li:hover {color:#ffff00;}



#sidebar #title {text-transform:uppercase; font-size:16px !important; color:#fff !important; text-align:left; margin:0px 5px;}



#sidebar #storyAuthor {font-size:100% !important; position:absolute; top:0px; left:180px; display:block; width:800px;}



#sidebar #storyMenu li {font-size:14px;}



blockquote {font-style:italic; margin:0px 25px; color:#aaaaaa}



h2 {text-align:center; color: #fff; font-size:16px; font-weight:bold; margin:0; padding:0; background:#aa0000;

font-family:"Lucida Console", Monaco, courier, "Courier New", arial, sans-serif; text-transform:uppercase; letter-spacing:1px;}



a.internalLink {margin:0; padding:3px 0;}



.content a {

display:block;

text-align:left;

color:#ff0000;

padding:0;

text-decoration:none !important;

}

.content a:hover {

background:#aa0000;

color:#fff;



}



#passages {margin-left:0;}

.passage {margin:48px auto;}



hr {margin:0px; border:none; border-bottom:2px dashed #008080; border-top:2px dashed #008080;}



.bord1 {margin:5px 0 1px 0; border-bottom:2px dashed #ff0000; border-top:2px dashed #ff0000;}

.bord2 {margin:0 0 5px 0; border-bottom:2px dashed #ff0000; border-top:2px dashed #ff0000;}



.quote {margin:20px; border:2px dashed #555; padding:10px;}



.final {display:block; color:#ff0000; text-align:center !important;}



#restart {display:none !important; font-size:16px; margin:3px 15px 0 10px;}

#share, #snapback, #credits {display:none !important;}



.transition-in {

clip: rect(0px, 2000px, 0px, 0px) !important;

}



.passage {

clip: rect(0px, 800px, 2000px, 0px);

width: 800px;

height: 2000px;

position: absolute;

left:50%;

margin-left:-400px;

transition: 1s linear;

-webkit-transition: 1s linear;

overflow:auto;

}

.transition-out {

clip: rect(800px, 2000px, 800px, 0px);

}



#sidebar #storyAuthor a, #sidebar li a {color:#fff !important;}



#sidebar #storyTitle a:hover {text-decoration:underline;}



#sidebar #storyMenu {position:absolute; right:5px; font-size:16px !important; color:#000 !important;}

#sidebar #storyMenu li:hover {color:red !important;}



#sidebar li:hover, #sidebar a:hover {color:#fff !important; cursor-events:none !important; text-decoration:none !important;}



/*