bhfberserk Profile Joined August 2011 Canada 390 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-11 03:37:25 #1 Update from David Kim:



We're looking into it.



Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:



1. Too easy to execute

2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac)

3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready



Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.



http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9280218214?page=1



It's great that Blizzard held off on the nerf hammer for HOTS to let the metagame settle in. Now that the WCS season 1 is over, maybe it is time to look at Hellbats in TvT ?





*Provided by Existor.



Minerals: 100

Supply: 2

Build time: 30

Hit point: 135

Damage 18(+12 light)



*This is not a balance talk, but more of a Terran's strategy options comparing Hellbat drop-play to other options.

Are we doomed to see Hellbat drops non-stop in TvT??

So, let's talk about Hellbats strictly in TvT and put aside other race balance issues.



Problem:

Hellbat drop is so efficient in its potential damage compared to other options in TvT.



Let's compare a Medivac of 8 Marines to 2 Hellbats:

8 Marines, 400 minerals

2 Hellbats, 200 minerals.



8 Marines, 25s x 4 build time

2 Hellbat 30s build time (It is ready to move out and deal massive damage!)



Hellbat drop only needs to drop out 2 units for maximum damage.

Marine drop needs to drop out all 8 Marines as well as Stim to get full damage.



This is by far the biggest problem I see. The player can continue to attempt drops even if the opponent has already reacted to stop it. 2 Hellbats drop out so quickly.



Blizzard stated they balanced the game to favor the offensive side, but how much is too much? (SOTG EP94)

A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game.



A Hellbat drop is by far the cheapest combo you can send to harass your opponent. It is not heavy in gas cost compared to a banshee.



A turret in the mineral line usually buys more time to react against a drop because it would force the Medivac to drop marines/hellions outside the mineral line, whereas Hellbat drops can ignore that by sacrificing the Medivac to get all units out right at the mineral line.



A turret + viking can completely shut down banshees and most early dropship plays.



The standard setup for Hellbat drops, however, seems to be a bunker and a turret in the mineral line. Bunker (100), 4 x Marine (200), 1 x Turret (100). Just around the same cost as a Hellbat drop.



Not saying Hellbat drops don't require good control, but compared to other forms of harassment, the micro seems to be simpler:



A successful Widow Mine burrow at the mineral takes more commands to execute, but the extra micro does not reward more.



A Banshee kiting her ass off can only 2 hit an SCV.



4 upgraded Blue Flame Hellions chasing all the running SCVs deal just about the same damage as 2 Hellbats.



The stakes are just not as high as losing a medivac full of marines, hellions or a single banshee. Because of the cost and rebuild time.



Metagame Observation:

Gas into reactor hellions into armory + reactor factory + starport.



This opener is fairly standard now, since drop-play ignores ground terrain the strength of the build is less effected by map. (Of course, there are some maps where Hellbat drops are less effective, like the cross-spawn Whirlwind)



Opening with Hellbat drops is just so safe, so good and dominant.



So many problems with this unit the more you think about it:

I feel the problem lies on its efficiency. It is relatively cheap/fast to get ready to be send out. It can deal damage even after defenses are set up. It is not a big loss even if completely shut down as it guarantees some lost mining time... etc...



Love it or hate it, lets talk about Hellbat!



Poll: Is it time for Blizzard to take a look at Hellbat?



Yes (3024)

82%



No (643)

18%



3667 total votes (3024)82%(643)18%3667 total votes Your vote: Is it time for Blizzard to take a look at Hellbat? (Vote): Yes

(Vote): No







Previously David Kim on Hellbat @SOTG EP94

+ Show Spoiler + Hellbat talk starts at the beginning.



I play Terran.

It's great that Blizzard held off on the nerf hammer for HOTS to let the metagame settle in. Now that the WCS season 1 is over, maybe it is time to look at*Provided by Existor.Minerals: 100Supply: 2Build time: 30Hit point: 135Damage 18(+12 light)So, let's talk about Hellbats strictly in TvT and put aside other race balance issues.Problem:Let's compare a Medivac of 8 Marines to 2 Hellbats:8 Marines, 400 minerals2 Hellbats, 200 minerals.8 Marines, 25s x 4 build time2 Hellbat 30s build time (It is ready to move out and deal massive damage!)Hellbat drop only needs to drop out 2 units for maximum damage.Marine drop needs to drop out all 8 Marines as well as Stim to get full damage.(SOTG EP94)A Hellbat drop requires much more defensive investment than any other harassment units in the game.A Hellbat drop is by far the cheapest combo you can send to harass your opponent. It is not heavy in gas cost compared to a banshee.A turret in the mineral line usually buys more time to react against a drop because it would force the Medivac to drop marines/hellions outside the mineral line, whereas Hellbat drops can ignore that by sacrificing the Medivac to get all units out right at the mineral line.A turret + viking can completely shut down banshees and most early dropship plays.The standard setup for Hellbat drops, however, seems to be a bunker and a turret in the mineral line. Bunker (100), 4 x Marine (200), 1 x Turret (100). Just around the same cost as a Hellbat drop.A successful Widow Mine burrow at the mineral takes more commands to execute, but the extra micro does not reward more.A Banshee kiting her ass off can only 2 hit an SCV.4 upgraded Blue Flame Hellions chasing all the running SCVs deal just about the same damage as 2 Hellbats.The stakes are just not as high as losing a medivac full of marines, hellions or a single banshee. Because of the cost and rebuild time.Gas into reactor hellions into armory + reactor factory + starport.This opener is fairly standard now, since drop-play ignores ground terrain the strength of the build is less effected by map. (Of course, there are some maps where Hellbat drops are less effective, like the cross-spawn Whirlwind)Opening with Hellbat drops is just so safe, so good and dominant.I feel the problem lies on its efficiency. It is relatively cheap/fast to get ready to be send out. It can deal damage even after defenses are set up. It is not a big loss even if completely shut down as it guarantees some lost mining time... etc...Love it or hate it, lets talk about Hellbat!Previously David Kim on Hellbat @SOTG EP94

Gladiator6 Profile Joined June 2010 Sweden 7021 Posts #2 I think they should make it a little bit more expensive than it is now, maybe let it cost 125 minerals? It's quite hard to deal with in late game PvT also when it's included in compositions because of how cheap it is. Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO

NexCa Profile Joined March 2011 Germany 942 Posts #3 Well, yea, hope Blizzard is going to look at that Best Protoss Player 4 ever - Bisu[Shield] || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326242 || THIS IS WHERE WE STAND, THIS IS WHERE THEY FALL, GIVE THEM NOTHING, BUT TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING ! || SKT FIGHTIIING

TheSayo182 Profile Joined September 2012 Italy 235 Posts #4 the biggest shame is that it doesn't require gas, how can a car who spit fire run without gas? "Remember: Probes & Pylons and when behind Dark Shrine!"

Bagi Profile Joined August 2010 Germany 6789 Posts #5 The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?



The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.

Targe Profile Blog Joined February 2012 United Kingdom 5978 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-09 16:40:45 #6



Personally I don't think they need looking at as it's possible to reduce the damage they do, you just need good reactions and to be prepared.



Edit: I think this attention required bit is a good thing, I only have a problem cause I'm not good enough The only problem with hellbat drops for me is that you need to have quick reactions or you lose everything, if you're paying good attention then you can get away with losing just a couple SCVs.Personally I don't think they need looking at as it's possible to reduce the damage they do, you just need good reactions and to be prepared.Edit: I think this attention required bit is a good thing, I only have a problem cause I'm not good enough 11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main

gobbledydook Profile Joined October 2012 Australia 1813 Posts #7 On June 10 2013 01:37 TheSayo182 wrote:

the biggest shame is that it doesn't require gas, how can a car who spit fire run without gas?

hellions don't require gas and it has never been a problem... hellions don't require gas and it has never been a problem... I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser

DifuntO Profile Joined November 2011 Greece 2374 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-09 16:42:01 #8 No,not right now.They should give it a bit more time. All I do is Stim.

Canucklehead Profile Joined March 2011 Canada 4922 Posts #9 Why not just limit hellbats to one per medivac? Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock

Liman Profile Joined July 2012 Serbia 680 Posts #10 I just dont want for T v T to became hellbat fest like Z v Z became muta fest for a while.

Its boring to watch same thing again and again. Freelancer veteran

Incognoto Profile Blog Joined May 2010 France 10199 Posts #11 I really want to hear the opinion of tip top players on this really.



We already know what Idra thinks of Hellabts and Widow Mines. I'm curious to hear what other pros think. eso-community.net | Age of Empires 3 Community Forum ! | maru lover forever | I LIVE IN USA NOW http://i.imgur.com/EZPrgbW.png

NadaSound Profile Joined March 2010 United States 227 Posts #12 It think the hellbat is fine, but the healing by the medivac is the true problem. They are not so bad when there is no medivac around.

imre Profile Blog Joined November 2011 France 9125 Posts #13 On June 10 2013 01:44 Incognoto wrote:

I really want to hear the opinion of tip top players on this really.



We already know what Idra thinks of Hellabts and Widow Mines. I'm curious to hear what other pros think.



i give it to you:

Z and P: hellbat and medivac boost imba

T who don't like to mech: hellbat imba

other T: everything is fine. i give it to you:Z and P: hellbat and medivac boost imbaT who don't like to mech: hellbat imbaother T: everything is fine. Zest fanboy.

Hypemeup Profile Joined February 2011 Sweden 2782 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-09 16:47:13 #14



Hellbats are fine. On June 10 2013 01:44 Incognoto wrote:

I really want to hear the opinion of tip top players on this really.



We already know what Idra thinks of Hellabts and Widow Mines. I'm curious to hear what other pros think.



IdrAs opinions on balance have always been useless, I dont know why you bring him up. IdrAs opinions on balance have always been useless, I dont know why you bring him up.

theking1 Profile Joined June 2013 Romania 585 Posts #15



http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/



Quote



"Players were hoping for innovative new mechanics and play, reinvigorating what was becoming a relatively stagnated and uninteresting gain. I can speak from personal experience here, and from watching others play, that most of the HotS excitement died off in about one week"



Couple of months later hellbats form the core of terran play while vipers and swarmhosts are vital in zerg late game.Not bad for a game with stagnant gameplay.Not to mention the beautiful 4th game by innovation with tempest at the wcs finals.



Back to the topic at hand.As for the hellbat meta I think it tends to be a bit imbalanced at this time.Helbats are deadly against any type of bio,can harass worker lines and even absorb damage.I think a lower damage or hp would make them more easy to counter since that incredible aoe damage of theirs is sort of unparaleled in the z and p races.One might argue about oracles doing the same to bio but oracle is mostly an early game allinish strat while hellbats are viable form early to late game and can be massed.I personally see the helbats as a sort of "marine of mech":low price,high damage and viable all game round. Hellbats sort of reminded me of that infamous "sc2 is dying " post by destiny on reddit.Quote"Players were hoping for innovative new mechanics and play, reinvigorating what was becoming a relatively stagnated and uninteresting gain. I can speak from personal experience here, and from watching others play, that most of the HotS excitement died off in about one week"Couple of months later hellbats form the core of terran play while vipers and swarmhosts are vital in zerg late game.Not bad for a game with stagnant gameplay.Not to mention the beautiful 4th game by innovation with tempest at the wcs finals.Back to the topic at hand.As for the hellbat meta I think it tends to be a bit imbalanced at this time.Helbats are deadly against any type of bio,can harass worker lines and even absorb damage.I think a lower damage or hp would make them more easy to counter since that incredible aoe damage of theirs is sort of unparaleled in the z and p races.One might argue about oracles doing the same to bio but oracle is mostly an early game allinish strat while hellbats are viable form early to late game and can be massed.I personally see the helbats as a sort of "marine of mech":low price,high damage and viable all game round.

Kenitek Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 21 Posts #16 On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote:

The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?



The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.

who cares about TvT? Then answer me this who cares about ZvZ? Blizzard does.

The hellbat is too strong and almost everyone knows it nerfing them would at least reduce the amount of strategies revolved around hellbat drop, and direct the meta game into a better place. This thread only talks about the TvT side of the Hellbat, not even including what it can do against Z and P. who cares about TvT? Then answer me this who cares about ZvZ? Blizzard does.The hellbat is too strong and almost everyone knows it nerfing them would at least reduce the amount of strategies revolved around hellbat drop, and direct the meta game into a better place. This thread only talks about the TvT side of the Hellbat, not even including what it can do against Z and P.

JIJI_ Profile Joined October 2010 United States 123 Posts #17 Pretty much Z, P, non-mech T: hellbat is imba



Mech T: hellbat is fine All hail King IdrA!

Dvriel Profile Joined November 2011 607 Posts #18 On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote:

The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?



The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.



LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...



We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world. LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.

leova Profile Joined April 2011 266 Posts #19 The Hellbat is just a retarted unit, and while I like the CONCEPT of having a transforming hellion, the way it was done is just stupid



So it somehow gets MORE HP after transforming?

It somehow goes from Mechanical to Biological so it can heal?

Takes up different sizes in Medivacs?



And they do a STUPIDLY LARGE amount of damage, especially given how units clump in SC2.





It needs to be a simple swap from Hellion. No biological, NO BONUS HP....done

Hypemeup Profile Joined February 2011 Sweden 2782 Posts #20 On June 10 2013 01:51 Dvriel wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 10 2013 01:38 Bagi wrote:

The hellbat whine is a bunch of fucking bullshit. Who cares about TvT anyway? Why would you limit perfectly balanced strategies in other match-ups because you don't exactly like the current TvT metagame?



The problem isn't the hellbat in the first place, it's the medivac booster with its ridiculously short cooldown. Add 5 seconds and hellbat drops lose all their mobility, the end.



LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...



We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world. LOL. A bunch of Terrans like me DO CARE about TvT. The problema IS the Hellbat. If the Hellbat lands your mineral line go to hell even If the Medivac die.Its the same situation as it once was with the BFHellions.Its just too much damage and its not the unique moment of SC2 history: Does anyone remember the PvP when it was 4gate ONLY??? Who does care about PvP? Well, lot of us. It was disgusting to watch as it was the Final today. Watching the best Terrans in the world beating themselves with hellbat drops...so lame. TvT is a good tactical positioning match.Well, it was BEFORE this Hellbat joke. They need nerf of the damage for sure and not be healed by medivacs.This will make them ALMOST equal as the BFH but they come faster and are cheaper...We need the change!!!! Please David Kim, come here and see this. You said in SOTG(INcontrol: "are happy with Hellabts?" DK:"yes,..." INcontrol: "WHAT?") that the problema is the medivac,but I think you were pretty wrong and today Mvp and INnovation show it to all the world.



Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed. Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed.

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