Kaelaris Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United Kingdom 786 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-05 20:59:41 #1 New Blood A look at the European Metagame

by Kaelaris

This is a small personal blog from Kaelaris, known for his casting at ESL over the last several years in StarCraft II who is now doing Heroes of the Storm casting as well. It comes from Kaelaris' facebook and I thought it would be nice to have a discussion for it here on TL.



-Heyoka



Introduction

Heroes meta here in the EU is in a rather interesting and fluctuating place at the moment. Where to begin, there is so much. There are actually quite a few ways to play this meta currently so I cannot possibly cover everything, but here are just a few of my thoughts as things stand. I actually tried to prioritise them in terms of significance, but that completely fell apart when I began to critically think about how interwoven they truly are, so a priority system is impossible at this point. This blog will only cover 1 small part of the meta, the newest members. I will do follow up writings later.



The competition in Europe is FIERCE at the moment, with a capital F. Right now I feel the meta is volatile. All you need to do is look at the way in which the top 4 teams in Europe have been dealing with this meta as of late. From the previous meta, I would consider Team Liquid, Gamers2, Na'Vi and Kinguin to have been the top dogs, with others not so far behind. Is this true now? maybe, but even a team as previously invincible as TL aren't looking so untouchable right now.



Disclaimer - I could probably write pages about each of these heroes and how they suit each map and composition, but for the sake of not writing an entire book, i’m going to keep it a bit shorter than that. So if there are points you think i’ve overlooked, understand I don’t want to write ALL day.



The New Blood – The Lost Vikings, Sylvanas and Kael’Thas.



KAEL’THAS



Let us continue with the 3 most recent Heroes to be released, which have had significant influence over the meta, ignoring Johanna for now who we can speak about later and haven't seen her in proper games just yet. These three right now see the most bans, and first picks in Europe. Of course older heroes also make their way in as they’ve also stood the test of time for bans and first picks, but we can go into those later. Also depending on the map, these picks and bans are indeed interchangeable.



The small change to Kael'Thas and his chain bomb made very little difference regarding his true potential at the top level, but I can only imagine that the next patch will bring changes to him to put him in line with the other Assassins. Once he gains level 13, Flamethrower and then 16, Ignite, he becomes a god. One Flamestrike in the right place can basically win a fight or even the game in extreme instances. Regardless of it it even hits or not, it’s enough to strike fear into your opponents, as the poke potential is tough to rival. Combine him with the heavy focus of space control at the moment (we’ll get to that later), it makes for an extremely deadly combo, that has too much burst damage in it's current state. A tweak to the damage is something I wouldn’t think out of the question. I theorised recently what Kael’Thas would be like without gathering power, but very rarely do I see a Kael’Thas without 5 stacks so I cannot really judge. Also Flamethrower range increase is the most obvious choice at level 13, dwarfing the other talents at that junction. For example, Pyromaniac at 13 is an extremely interesting talent when you couple it with Verdant Sphere, double Living Bombs, and the prior lvl 1 Mana Addict that you need to keep it going, Alas we will never see use of it while Flamethrower is in it’s current form.



Some might say, “well, technically Jaina has an increase on her Blizzard range but it’s never taken! So why is Flamethrower so good?”. Well, Storm Front requires you to sacrifice quite a bit of survivability at lvl 13, and I would also argue you need to take Snowstorm at level 4 to get anywhere close to the same kind of zoning and poke potential. There is still one occurrence that I suppose you could make an argument for Chain Bomb, which could be against Vikings on maps where objectives are in tight areas, Cursed Hollow for example. BUT even then, Flamethrower is still amazingly strong.



Of course we should mention that Kael’Thas, unlike the upcoming 2 heroes, doesn’t have much of an early game, and no proper escape until Bolt of the Storm at level 20, so there is some justification there for him being truly a glass cannon.



http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/kaelthas#h9W9



SYLVANAS



We used to think Zagara was the queen of lanes, well, the real queen is here now. Sylvanas is an absolute menace in the current meta. Both early game and late game. Her tool-kit is one of the most powerful in the game right now. To start things off, her laning is aided by having very few mana problems, as her Withering arrow costs no mana, and her other abilities have very little cost in relation to how often you need to use them. Constant lane presence is hers. Next at level 4 comes Envenom, which gives her great kill potential in the early game. Without it she doesn’t have much kill potency in the beginning of the game to be honest. It is also very powerful because, ideally roaming squads want to shut her down, which in previous metas comprised of Kerrigan's and Arthas’, who also had envenom. Now though, that isn’t the case, so you better land those skill shot stuns. Blood for Blood later in the game adds even more to her chunking ability. Many teams have fallen away from the use of Follow Through at level 7, and are instead prioritising Unstable poison to further increase her deadly pushing power. It’s very rare you will ever see a Sylvanas not have control of the laning phase. The experience lead it creates can allow for brutal snow-ball if it’s a top-tier team that isn’t going to drop the ball and risk things later, and it doesn’t end there. Wailing Arrow can be fight winning, it’s potential to completely turn fights, in a similar way to Kael’Thas’ post 13 Flamestrike, is devastating. The Heroic itself is so versatile, be it to secure solo kills, disengage or gain the perfect engage off of a Void Prism, Devouring Maw, any stun, clump up or slow.



Haunting wave provides her with excellent mobility, and there are even strong niche plays such as level 7 Shade form, to make it much harder for Polymorph or targeted disables to deny the activation of the wave. Indeed that takes away from some pushing power, but increases her survivability in the right situations, against the right teams. When you have a hero who can put on massive pressure during the laning phase as well as the team fight phase, you know you cannot go wrong with her. Wailing Arrow can outright counter an entire team. Right now if you see a Sylvanas go through the ban phase on a map like Haunted Mines, something weird has happened. On a map like that, she is almost meta-dictating in certain scenarios. The team that has her at high level, regardless of map will almost always get ahead, and you MUST respect her power. In my mind she is absolutely the best first pick right now in this meta.



http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/sylvanas#hXyi

- Evasive Fire and Blood for Blood are interchangeable with Spell Shield and Cold Embrace, depending on your requirements and setup around you.



THE LOST VIKINGS



Ban them, or deal with them, it’s your choice really. The Lost Vikings add something to Heroes of the Storm that is difficult to replicate with any other Hero. The problem for many teams doesn’t come directly from the engagement, but rather the lack of it. On bigger maps with objectives such as Cursed Hollow and Sky Temple, Vikings can spread well, soak all the lanes and basically make it extremely difficult to keep pace on level. They basically force the opposing team into working twice as hard as the Vikings team, as you need to either go for the “poor mans vikings” Abathur to get some extra soak yourself (via body, abathur hat and locust last hits), or you can use something like a Zeratul with Gathering Power, farm them early and make for a powerful foe very early on to other Heroes. They force an uncomfortable position for your opponent, especially if you’re keen enough to ban out Abathur on the bigger maps like previously mentioned. At level 4, having Spin to Win gives the Vikings fantastic wave clear capabilities, which then in turn gives him powerful pushing power. Unless you’re going to kill all three of them in this situation, is it worth heading up there and attempting to shut them down? Well map-aware Vikings will Go Go Go! right out of there.



You better shut down some of their lane soak and push early, because when they hit level 7, Jump! gives them that extra spring-in-their-step they need, to get away from your gank.



Then we come to Longboat Raid! Is one of your Viking’s low on health? No problem! Is your opposing team out of position and rooted? No problem! Is it just an every day team fight? No problem! The amount of damage it does forces your opponents to either run away, or completely turn their attention to it. You can pop it to save a Viking, and that’s important! because it one dies, that diminishes the effectiveness of the Longboat by quite a bit. Then when Ragnarok and Roll! kicks in, you’re having the best of times with damage out-put and space control.



The Lost Vikings also have the fantastic ability of being able to secure things like a Garden Terror, becoming a whole member of the team in a push or team-fight, but also having the other lanes being soaked at the same time.



http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/the-lost-vikings#pHap

- This is THE build. Any deviation from it is pretty much just inferior at top level play.



Ok i’m stopping at 3 pages about just 3 heroes, and this doesn’t cover anywhere NEAR what I could say about them, as well as other heroes about their place in the meta!



I think i'll write more soon about other Heroes soon if you liked this

Heroes meta here in the EU is in a rather interesting and fluctuating place at the moment. Where to begin, there is so much. There are actually quite a few ways to play this meta currently so I cannot possibly cover everything, but here are just a few of my thoughts as things stand. I actually tried to prioritise them in terms of significance, but that completely fell apart when I began to critically think about how interwoven they truly are, so a priority system is impossible at this point. This blog will only cover 1 small part of the meta, the newest members. I will do follow up writings later.The competition in Europe is FIERCE at the moment, with a capital F. Right now I feel the meta is volatile. All you need to do is look at the way in which the top 4 teams in Europe have been dealing with this meta as of late. From the previous meta, I would consider Team Liquid, Gamers2, Na'Vi and Kinguin to have been the top dogs, with others not so far behind. Is this true now? maybe, but even a team as previously invincible as TL aren't looking so untouchable right now.Disclaimer - I could probably write pages about each of these heroes and how they suit each map and composition, but for the sake of not writing an entire book, i’m going to keep it a bit shorter than that. So if there are points you think i’ve overlooked, understand I don’t want to write ALL day.The New Blood – The Lost Vikings, Sylvanas and Kael’Thas.Let us continue with the 3 most recent Heroes to be released, which have had significant influence over the meta, ignoring Johanna for now who we can speak about later and haven't seen her in proper games just yet. These three right now see the most bans, and first picks in Europe. Of course older heroes also make their way in as they’ve also stood the test of time for bans and first picks, but we can go into those later. Also depending on the map, these picks and bans are indeed interchangeable.The small change to Kael'Thas and his chain bomb made very little difference regarding his true potential at the top level, but I can only imagine that the next patch will bring changes to him to put him in line with the other Assassins. Once he gains level 13, Flamethrower and then 16, Ignite, he becomes a god. One Flamestrike in the right place can basically win a fight or even the game in extreme instances. Regardless of it it even hits or not, it’s enough to strike fear into your opponents, as the poke potential is tough to rival. Combine him with the heavy focus of space control at the moment (we’ll get to that later), it makes for an extremely deadly combo, that has too much burst damage in it's current state. A tweak to the damage is something I wouldn’t think out of the question. I theorised recently what Kael’Thas would be like without gathering power, but very rarely do I see a Kael’Thas without 5 stacks so I cannot really judge. Also Flamethrower range increase is the most obvious choice at level 13, dwarfing the other talents at that junction. For example, Pyromaniac at 13 is an extremely interesting talent when you couple it with Verdant Sphere, double Living Bombs, and the prior lvl 1 Mana Addict that you need to keep it going, Alas we will never see use of it while Flamethrower is in it’s current form.Some might say, “well, technically Jaina has an increase on her Blizzard range but it’s never taken! So why is Flamethrower so good?”. Well, Storm Front requires you to sacrifice quite a bit of survivability at lvl 13, and I would also argue you need to take Snowstorm at level 4 to get anywhere close to the same kind of zoning and poke potential. There is still one occurrence that I suppose you could make an argument for Chain Bomb, which could be against Vikings on maps where objectives are in tight areas, Cursed Hollow for example. BUT even then, Flamethrower is still amazingly strong.Of course we should mention that Kael’Thas, unlike the upcoming 2 heroes, doesn’t have much of an early game, and no proper escape until Bolt of the Storm at level 20, so there is some justification there for him being truly a glass cannon.We used to think Zagara was the queen of lanes, well, the real queen is here now. Sylvanas is an absolute menace in the current meta. Both early game and late game. Her tool-kit is one of the most powerful in the game right now. To start things off, her laning is aided by having very few mana problems, as her Withering arrow costs no mana, and her other abilities have very little cost in relation to how often you need to use them. Constant lane presence is hers. Next at level 4 comes Envenom, which gives her great kill potential in the early game. Without it she doesn’t have much kill potency in the beginning of the game to be honest. It is also very powerful because, ideally roaming squads want to shut her down, which in previous metas comprised of Kerrigan's and Arthas’, who also had envenom. Now though, that isn’t the case, so you better land those skill shot stuns. Blood for Blood later in the game adds even more to her chunking ability. Many teams have fallen away from the use of Follow Through at level 7, and are instead prioritising Unstable poison to further increase her deadly pushing power. It’s very rare you will ever see a Sylvanas not have control of the laning phase. The experience lead it creates can allow for brutal snow-ball if it’s a top-tier team that isn’t going to drop the ball and risk things later, and it doesn’t end there. Wailing Arrow can be fight winning, it’s potential to completely turn fights, in a similar way to Kael’Thas’ post 13 Flamestrike, is devastating. The Heroic itself is so versatile, be it to secure solo kills, disengage or gain the perfect engage off of a Void Prism, Devouring Maw, any stun, clump up or slow.Haunting wave provides her with excellent mobility, and there are even strong niche plays such as level 7 Shade form, to make it much harder for Polymorph or targeted disables to deny the activation of the wave. Indeed that takes away from some pushing power, but increases her survivability in the right situations, against the right teams. When you have a hero who can put on massive pressure during the laning phase as well as the team fight phase, you know you cannot go wrong with her. Wailing Arrow can outright counter an entire team. Right now if you see a Sylvanas go through the ban phase on a map like Haunted Mines, something weird has happened. On a map like that, she is almost meta-dictating in certain scenarios. The team that has her at high level, regardless of map will almost always get ahead, and you MUST respect her power. In my mind she is absolutely the best first pick right now in this meta.- Evasive Fire and Blood for Blood are interchangeable with Spell Shield and Cold Embrace, depending on your requirements and setup around you.Ban them, or deal with them, it’s your choice really. The Lost Vikings add something to Heroes of the Storm that is difficult to replicate with any other Hero. The problem for many teams doesn’t come directly from the engagement, but rather the lack of it. On bigger maps with objectives such as Cursed Hollow and Sky Temple, Vikings can spread well, soak all the lanes and basically make it extremely difficult to keep pace on level. They basically force the opposing team into working twice as hard as the Vikings team, as you need to either go for the “poor mans vikings” Abathur to get some extra soak yourself (via body, abathur hat and locust last hits), or you can use something like a Zeratul with Gathering Power, farm them early and make for a powerful foe very early on to other Heroes. They force an uncomfortable position for your opponent, especially if you’re keen enough to ban out Abathur on the bigger maps like previously mentioned. At level 4, having Spin to Win gives the Vikings fantastic wave clear capabilities, which then in turn gives him powerful pushing power. Unless you’re going to kill all three of them in this situation, is it worth heading up there and attempting to shut them down? Well map-aware Vikings will Go Go Go! right out of there.You better shut down some of their lane soak and push early, because when they hit level 7, Jump! gives them that extra spring-in-their-step they need, to get away from your gank.Then we come to Longboat Raid! Is one of your Viking’s low on health? No problem! Is your opposing team out of position and rooted? No problem! Is it just an every day team fight? No problem! The amount of damage it does forces your opponents to either run away, or completely turn their attention to it. You can pop it to save a Viking, and that’s important! because it one dies, that diminishes the effectiveness of the Longboat by quite a bit. Then when Ragnarok and Roll! kicks in, you’re having the best of times with damage out-put and space control.The Lost Vikings also have the fantastic ability of being able to secure things like a Garden Terror, becoming a whole member of the team in a push or team-fight, but also having the other lanes being soaked at the same time.- This is THE build. Any deviation from it is pretty much just inferior at top level play.Ok i’m stopping at 3 pages about just 3 heroes, and this doesn’t cover anywhere NEAR what I could say about them, as well as other heroes about their place in the meta!I think i'll write more soon about other Heroes soon if you liked this

Commentator ESL Commentator ♞ Facebook.com/Kaelaris ♞ Twitter.com/Kaelaris ♞ Youtube.com/Kaelaris ♞ Twitch.tv/Kaelaris

Heyoka Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Temple of EE-Sama 22504 Posts #2 With the last two heroes being released being Sylv and Kael'thas, which see considerable play, do you think Johanna will join their ranks or just be relegated to "just another warrior"? @RealHeyoka | DreamHack StarCrafty Man

FeyFey Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 10106 Posts #3 Warriors are usually used to initiate fights, Johanna can't do that really well. She does counteracts diving onto a single person to some extent though and gather enemies while a team fight is going on. So I think she might turn into a good counterpick for dive compositions. Might also be used against quadruple b4b.

Talaris Profile Joined March 2011 Switzerland 746 Posts #4 Great analysis, especially as there is (finally, this should be the standard in such stuff) no bias involved.



Personally I think Kael'Thas ranged skill is far more potent than say, Jaina's, due to the nature of ths skill involved. Sure, blizzard can pack a punch as well, but even if you get hit, you normally can avoid the second hit, thus taking just half dmg.

Also, the radius is smaller.

On Kael'thas if you get hit, you not only take full dmg, but also get a bomb apllied and personally, I think that's too much.

Would love to either the extra bomb removed or make the increased AoE not be tied to the Spheres, but a skill choice, too. That way it'd be closer to Jaina, which was a very strong contender to be picked or banned before KaelThas came out, too.

In general, the lack of escape and really high mana costs really balances him (51%ish winrates on all leages), it's just that this particular combo feels abit too dominant. Fine for Progames I guess, silly in lower skilled play as you basically win almost all teamfights if you hit 16.



As for vikings, I'm quite baffled that Blizz didn't do anything yet considerung the ~60%ish winrates they have for months now. They are hard to change, for sure, but seeing that there is 1 cookie-cutter build, you could work at those talents. Later Spin or Jump would make them less crazy while still maintaining the intended advantage and unique playstyle of having 3 bodies.

I mean there is a reason that everybody goes exactly that build, just the ultimates change from time to time depending on meta/maps.





For me, Sylvanas is strong, but unlike vikings you actually have to stay in the lane, so there is an opportunity cost. Kinda like Hammer laning instead of coming to teamfights, even though Sylvanas does better , esp. as she can ultimatley support a teampush as well.

Not sure, she still feels strong, perhaps a tweak to her passive just triggering on abilities and adding a talent on lvl 4 that allows her autoattack to trigger her passive again, would be small enough of a change. (?) At least it would rival Envenom a lvl 4 then, forcin her to choose to have better laning power or PvP.





-= Jaedong // HerO // Welmu // Unholy Alliance =- DRG: " if you prefer the money then there's nothing wrong with going with KeSPA."

Kaelaris Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United Kingdom 786 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-05 21:18:22 #5 On June 06 2015 05:54 Heyoka wrote:

With the last two heroes being released being Sylv and Kael'thas, which see considerable play, do you think Johanna will join their ranks or just be relegated to "just another warrior"?



I'll keep this short because I could, once again, write a book about her already lol.



The most important and potent part of Johanna's kit in my opinion right now is the Blind from Shield Glare. I think right now it's definitely the most overlooked but one of the strongest parts of her. A ranged blind that can basically blind 3-4 of their members with no trouble, INCLUDING ranged assassin's in this meta is amazing. Far Far Farrrrrrrr more powerful than Lili's blind. That being said, I think she'll probably see good play as a warrior. I feel her best place right now is in 2 warrior compositions, but this is mostly speculation, as I haven't seen her in scrims yet when obsing the teams. I'll keep this short because I could, once again, write a book about her already lol.The most important and potent part of Johanna's kit in my opinion right now is the Blind from Shield Glare. I think right now it's definitely the most overlooked but one of the strongest parts of her. A ranged blind that can basically blind 3-4 of their members with no trouble, INCLUDING ranged assassin's in this meta is amazing. Far Far Farrrrrrrr more powerful than Lili's blind. That being said, I think she'll probably see good play as a warrior. I feel her best place right now is in 2 warrior compositions, but this is mostly speculation, as I haven't seen her in scrims yet when obsing the teams. Commentator ESL Commentator ♞ Facebook.com/Kaelaris ♞ Twitter.com/Kaelaris ♞ Youtube.com/Kaelaris ♞ Twitch.tv/Kaelaris

Destructicon Profile Blog Joined September 2011 4637 Posts #6 I think Johanna is composition sensitive. If you need a tank that can setup or control enemies so you can wombo combo them (ETC, Diablo come to mind), then she won't work. However if you are more poke and peel focused I think she's great, technically she also has a bit of setup via her condemn, but I don't think its as strong as Mosh bit or a well landed Apocalypse. Also Johanna is so fucking hard to kill. Writer Never give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-06 01:40:46 #7

The problem I found with her is that I often can't really use her effectively simply because the way the team works there aren't many good things to do. Early on heroes are typically good at creeping, laning or ganking. The team often has a couple laners that lane and some other supports that help those laners, heroes that gank or that creep.

With johanna i feel often so useless early though. Laning presence is minimal, she does almost no damage to the creeps as her spells are all CC. In a sense she feels like muradin in that way. Muradin however is reasonable for ganking at least, with johanna that feels pretty pointless often because it's such a slow initiator. I feel she is like Malfurion at the moment, a pretty good hero that excels in supporting the others though. Being alone with her is absolutely terrible as the power is really in making sure others are safe and setting up plays. Malfurion however is just solid if you stick to manahungry heroes and push hard, johanna doesn't really help you push a lane hard I feel, if you are up against johanna and another hero it isn't that much harder to stop.

Later when it get's more teamfight oriented she is pretty nice though. Pretty similar to muradin, extremely good surviveability and mediocre damage but able to mitigate a lot of damage especially from autoattack based heroes. Muradin is more good against the bruisers like illidan at the moment though while johanna shines against ranged autoattackers like valla and falstad. Muradin is just a bit more mobily with the jump and slightly better initiation with stun.



I feel johanna needs either to be played as a solo tank in a great ranged comp, probably with kaelthas and malf/bw. Just poke them to death with great sustain and use johanna as a frontman and peeler for your backline. This is probably her best usage I think. The other I guess is with another hard initiater, something like tyrael or anub'arak. The other hero dives and then johanna provides additional CC. You need other heroes to help close the gap though I feel or you need a comp that easily outdamages their comp from range so they are forced to dive onto you. Her mobility is really lousy so you need ways to mitigate that by forcing them to come to you or having help to come to them and I think the first method is her best setup.

For example a composition of bw/jaina/kael'thas/sylvanas seems well to round out with johanna. Along with muradin I find her the only tank that you comfortably play as solo tank. I like her most with kael'thas and jaina especially as they have those delayed aoe spells that can be hard to hit. Using condemn well is the key to johanna I think, if the team is used to it, you can pretty much cast flamestrike/blizzard/psionic storm etc. right on top of johanna the moment she condemns. You can get some really nice clumped aoe then.



I'm not sure of her build yet,

I wouldn't be surprised if Knight takes Pawn ends up being the choice at 1 finally. PvE talents are generally considered crap because teamfighting is so important but that talent makes her from a lousy laner into quite a decent one,suddenly you have a spell that does slightly less damage to waves than a verdant sphere flamestrike but stuns them 4s too.

Especially against anub'arak/LV I like this build:

Her ults seem to be lacking most of all though, I feel like fallen sword should theoretically be very good for her, a gap closer and potential escape mechanism, extra damage and also just something to buy time if you do happen to go down. A bit like metamorphosis. However it's so damn slow, any hero with an escape easily dodges it and the damage is pathetic. Plus you have a tiny moment that you can't do anything after landing. The blessed shield is fairly nice and the better ult but has a big liability against anub'arak at the moment. An ult that depends on a skillshot that doesn't pierce is just so lousy if it hits a beetle. This could use a clause that it would only hit heroes like the root spell on thrall.



Overall I like her design and it's nice to have a new hero that isn't too obviously good right from the start.

Johanna I think will be hard to use really well and more dependant on composition, not an all star first pick like these last 3 heroes so far I think. The thing is, she is hard to use well early I feel.The problem I found with her is that I often can't really use her effectively simply because the way the team works there aren't many good things to do. Early on heroes are typically good at creeping, laning or ganking. The team often has a couple laners that lane and some other supports that help those laners, heroes that gank or that creep.With johanna i feel often so useless early though. Laning presence is minimal, she does almost no damage to the creeps as her spells are all CC. In a sense she feels like muradin in that way. Muradin however is reasonable for ganking at least, with johanna that feels pretty pointless often because it's such a slow initiator. I feel she is like Malfurion at the moment, a pretty good hero that excels in supporting the others though. Being alone with her is absolutely terrible as the power is really in making sure others are safe and setting up plays. Malfurion however is just solid if you stick to manahungry heroes and push hard, johanna doesn't really help you push a lane hard I feel, if you are up against johanna and another hero it isn't that much harder to stop.Later when it get's more teamfight oriented she is pretty nice though. Pretty similar to muradin, extremely good surviveability and mediocre damage but able to mitigate a lot of damage especially from autoattack based heroes. Muradin is more good against the bruisers like illidan at the moment though while johanna shines against ranged autoattackers like valla and falstad. Muradin is just a bit more mobily with the jump and slightly better initiation with stun.I feel johanna needs either to be played as a solo tank in a great ranged comp, probably with kaelthas and malf/bw. Just poke them to death with great sustain and use johanna as a frontman and peeler for your backline. This is probably her best usage I think. The other I guess is with another hard initiater, something like tyrael or anub'arak. The other hero dives and then johanna provides additional CC. You need other heroes to help close the gap though I feel or you need a comp that easily outdamages their comp from range so they are forced to dive onto you. Her mobility is really lousy so you need ways to mitigate that by forcing them to come to you or having help to come to them and I think the first method is her best setup.For example a composition of bw/jaina/kael'thas/sylvanas seems well to round out with johanna. Along with muradin I find her the only tank that you comfortably play as solo tank. I like her most with kael'thas and jaina especially as they have those delayed aoe spells that can be hard to hit. Using condemn well is the key to johanna I think, if the team is used to it, you can pretty much cast flamestrike/blizzard/psionic storm etc. right on top of johanna the moment she condemns. You can get some really nice clumped aoe then.I'm not sure of her build yet, http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/johanna#hYAm this seems to be most popular now.I wouldn't be surprised if Knight takes Pawn ends up being the choice at 1 finally. PvE talents are generally considered crap because teamfighting is so important but that talent makes her from a lousy laner into quite a decent one,suddenly you have a spell that does slightly less damage to waves than a verdant sphere flamestrike but stuns them 4s too.Especially against anub'arak/LV I like this build: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/johanna#l2Y8, you get really solid waveclear with it that's pretty manaefficient too and with the beatle build on anub'arak your condemn resets quite quickly. Which let's you get your trait quicker and just be more of a threat. Perhaps the Conviction talent at 7 is just neccesary though to have more gap closing, 1s feels so short though but perhaps it makes her just mobile enough to get in the right spots for good condemns.Her ults seem to be lacking most of all though, I feel like fallen sword should theoretically be very good for her, a gap closer and potential escape mechanism, extra damage and also just something to buy time if you do happen to go down. A bit like metamorphosis. However it's so damn slow, any hero with an escape easily dodges it and the damage is pathetic. Plus you have a tiny moment that you can't do anything after landing. The blessed shield is fairly nice and the better ult but has a big liability against anub'arak at the moment. An ult that depends on a skillshot that doesn't pierce is just so lousy if it hits a beetle. This could use a clause that it would only hit heroes like the root spell on thrall.Overall I like her design and it's nice to have a new hero that isn't too obviously good right from the start.

VArsovski_SC Profile Joined April 2015 14 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-06 09:09:36 #8



2 second evasion into 4 second miss on nearly the entire team by Johanna, then having 2 seconds evasion again, then having metamorhposis, b4b or stone skin, and unlimited dash/movement - yeah - gl killing that fucker lol



So yes - her Q skill is lacklustre/bad/unnoticed most of the times, her W is good and probably about right as it should, her E (and somewhat her passive D, but her E especially) is broken, I mean for real 4 seconds miss AoE on everyone, gl winning a teamfight after that one rofl I think Johanna is broken. Well, not by herself, but making Illidan broken rather2 second evasion into 4 second miss on nearly the entire team by Johanna, then having 2 seconds evasion again, then having metamorhposis, b4b or stone skin, and unlimited dash/movement - yeah - gl killing that fucker lolSo yes - her Q skill is lacklustre/bad/unnoticed most of the times, her W is good and probably about right as it should, her E (and somewhat her passive D, but her E especially) is broken, I mean for real 4 seconds miss AoE on everyone, gl winning a teamfight after that one rofl

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #9 Her E doesn't give 4 second miss on everyone.. It let's them miss 2 attacks during the next 4 seconds, and hitting everyone is possible but not easy.

For reference:

Shield Glare (E)

Mana: 45

Cooldown: 12 seconds



Deal 54 + (4 per level) damage to enemies and cause them to miss their next 2 Basic Attacks within 4 seconds



Compare it to Lili:

Blinding Wind (E)

Mana: 40

Cooldown: 10 seconds



Throw a cloud of Blinding Wind at the 2 nearest enemies (prioritizing Heroes), dealing 30 (+13 per level) damage. Targets miss their next 2 Basic Attacks in the next 4 seconds.



I think it's worst than blinding wind which isn't a stellar spell to begin with. Blinding wind has a lower cooldown, and scales much better in damage to actually do some damage later while shield glare is negligible damage at that point. The one thing going for shield glare is that it's higher range and the cone let's it hit more than 2 heroes in teamfights, but getting 4 or 5 is still hard actually. Especially as johanna tends to be a bit of a frontliner so if their illidan, anub'arak etc. dive past you a bit you hit only a few typically. The best way to hit more is to apply it right away when you just walk in but it's not often a great usage, plus works poorly with the talents for it (reinforce you are probably on 2 stacks and if you have the heal on glare you're still full hp perhaps). Ideal way is to walk in, take a bit of damage and then apply the glare hitting most of them and getting a reinforce stack and healing some if you have the heal talent for her.

In general I feel lot of her talents are just lackluster as they don't synergize with her kit well. For example imposing presence can be a really good talent on a tank but johanna has shield and shield glare already, what's the point of slowing them down if they are going to miss, ie half of 0 is 0 anyway. The shield glare heal talent the same thing, it counteracts with the timing you want to cast glare often which is straight away but a heal effect you generally want a bit later. For synergy I feel the rotating hammer at 16 often makes most sense but the damage on that is just so pathetic. All the talents that I like in theory on her because they fill voids that she lacks just feel so lackluster.





VArsovski_SC Profile Joined April 2015 14 Posts #10 @Markwerf, thx for the reply man, but - the tooltip on the ability from in-game is wrong lol



I'm pretty sure that it causes misses on ALL the attacks for the duration, not only the first two



In the "Johanna Spotlight" video on HotS channel on YT Cloaken says the duration is 1.5 seconds, still IDK



I don't know what the duration of the missed attacks is, I just know is that it's perma miss while it lasts tho

Luiwtf Profile Joined January 2011 England 217 Posts #11 I just tried her in Try Mode, the blind runs out as soon as 2 attacks are missed as expected.

EvilsPresley Profile Joined December 2014 France 132 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-09 10:17:51 #12 On June 06 2015 06:13 Talaris wrote:As for vikings, I'm quite baffled that Blizz didn't do anything yet considerung the ~60%ish winrates they have for months now. They are hard to change, for sure, but seeing that there is 1 cookie-cutter build, you could work at those talents. Later Spin or Jump would make them less crazy while still maintaining the intended advantage and unique playstyle of having 3 bodies.

I mean there is a reason that everybody goes exactly that build, just the ultimates change from time to time depending on meta/maps.

While I agree Vikings have a huge talents issue, and need a nerf & rework, I disagree strongly with moving their active skills to later levels. In fact, I think the only way to balance their build is to give them all their actives on level 1, like every other hero. This is the whole "use right talents to get your active skills" idea that makes Vikings unplayable out of the main build. And the fact that Vikings have no active early makes them scale too strongly with levels : they are quite weak early, and godlike in late. There is just no alternative to the burst and survavibility of the current active skills with the current burst meta.



Another issue is the "Vikings hoard" and "impatience is a virtue". Both of those talents are overpowered because of the 3-men nature of the vikings. It's too easy to gather tons of globes. It's too easy to use battle momentum if you can hit 3 times every auto attack, even if it only give 50% per attack compared to regular battle momentum. Thrall got Battle momentum removed because of windfury. Isn't it obvious the issue is similar with Vikings?



Now talents like Erik stealth or Olaf stuns are awesome (fun wise), and I think all viable talents should be like that to offer different combos, that will be awesome. Imagine if you could build vikings as a control character with slow/stuns etc. on all characters like Olaf with "Large and in charge"? Then on next game you change your build and you're now a stealth hero setting traps with talents like "Spy games". Then you change again and become a regeneration monster that will never die in long fights? There are so many possibilities if the talents were better designed, and the basic characters a lot weaker stats wise (and cooldown wise with the removal of battle momentum).



PS: I'm an avid Vikings player. I love them, even if my multi tasking is not over the top, so I often die early. But I'm also on a 17 win streak with them right now (half soloQ, half in duoQ, on QM diamond & HL plat levels), including "stolen games" that I definitively did not deserve to win, but I somewhat end up winning because even at something like 2-13 in 10th minute, we still have XP and late game advantage.



TLDR: give vikings all actives on level 1. Nerf their base stats or CDs. Remove Vikings hoard and Impatience is a virtue. Give more fun talents that add passives (stuns, stealth, regen, AOE, heal, whatever) to vikings to create comboes and force better micro (even when all vikings are grouped) for better results. While I agree Vikings have a huge talents issue, and need a nerf & rework, I disagree strongly with moving their active skills to later levels. In fact, I think the only way to balance their build is to give them all their actives on level 1, like every other hero. This is the whole "use right talents to get your active skills" idea that makes Vikings unplayable out of the main build. And the fact that Vikings have no active early makes them scale too strongly with levels : they are quite weak early, and godlike in late. There is just no alternative to the burst and survavibility of the current active skills with the current burst meta.Another issue is the "Vikings hoard" and "impatience is a virtue". Both of those talents are overpowered because of the 3-men nature of the vikings. It's too easy to gather tons of globes. It's too easy to use battle momentum if you can hit 3 times every auto attack, even if it only give 50% per attack compared to regular battle momentum. Thrall got Battle momentum removed because of windfury. Isn't it obvious the issue is similar with Vikings?Now talents like Erik stealth or Olaf stuns are awesome (fun wise), and I think all viable talents should be like that to offer different combos, that will be awesome. Imagine if you could build vikings as a control character with slow/stuns etc. on all characters like Olaf with "Large and in charge"? Then on next game you change your build and you're now a stealth hero setting traps with talents like "Spy games". Then you change again and become a regeneration monster that will never die in long fights? There are so many possibilities if the talents were better designed, and the basic characters a lot weaker stats wise (and cooldown wise with the removal of battle momentum).PS: I'm an avid Vikings player. I love them, even if my multi tasking is not over the top, so I often die early. But I'm also on a 17 win streak with them right now (half soloQ, half in duoQ, on QM diamond & HL plat levels), including "stolen games" that I definitively did not deserve to win, but I somewhat end up winning because even at something like 2-13 in 10th minute, we still have XP and late game advantage.: give vikings all actives on level 1. Nerf their base stats or CDs. Remove Vikings hoard and Impatience is a virtue. Give more fun talents that add passives (stuns, stealth, regen, AOE, heal, whatever) to vikings to create comboes and force better micro (even when all vikings are grouped) for better results. Rogue | Maru

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #13 Vikings definately need a reshuffle or new look at their talents because they have just 1 build. The activated talents build is too obviously best now, especially with impatience is a virtue. I wouldn't be surprised if just the removal of that for example would give some of the other options real consideration. Just like valla's removal of battle momentum opened up a lot because you aren't just spamming multishot anymore so might that for vikings, if you remove a key synergy other things might not be must picks anymore. In case of the vikings I do think that the activated talents are simply too strong compared to the rest though as these single viking buffs are just too weak.



I don't think they are much too strong though. They have a high win rate but also a a fairly low popularity. They are a bit of a niche pick at the moment, you need to draft around them. If you do, and the map fits, then they are really strong but I don't think they are generally overpowered much. Going by hotslogs stats alone is a just a terrible indicator. Even more so I think a huge part of their strength now is the power of brightwing, malfurion and to a lesser extent sylvanas and tyrael. Aoe heal effects are huge for the vikings, sylvanas is great for pushing a lane while soaking 2 others and tyrael is great with the aoe shield on them. Some aoe heroes that are good against them like kaelthas and valla are also popular but others that hate them more aren't so much I feel, for example if nova was actually good now the whole soaking with erik would be much easier to deny. Or if hammer was more popular he could push the lane against just olaf quite hard for example.



Perseverance Profile Joined February 2010 Japan 2795 Posts #14 On June 09 2015 20:54 Markwerf wrote:

Vikings definately need a reshuffle or new look at their talents because they have just 1 build. The activated talents build is too obviously best now, especially with impatience is a virtue. I wouldn't be surprised if just the removal of that for example would give some of the other options real consideration. Just like valla's removal of battle momentum opened up a lot because you aren't just spamming multishot anymore so might that for vikings, if you remove a key synergy other things might not be must picks anymore. In case of the vikings I do think that the activated talents are simply too strong compared to the rest though as these single viking buffs are just too weak.



I don't think they are much too strong though. They have a high win rate but also a a fairly low popularity. They are a bit of a niche pick at the moment, you need to draft around them. If you do, and the map fits, then they are really strong but I don't think they are generally overpowered much. Going by hotslogs stats alone is a just a terrible indicator. Even more so I think a huge part of their strength now is the power of brightwing, malfurion and to a lesser extent sylvanas and tyrael. Aoe heal effects are huge for the vikings, sylvanas is great for pushing a lane while soaking 2 others and tyrael is great with the aoe shield on them. Some aoe heroes that are good against them like kaelthas and valla are also popular but others that hate them more aren't so much I feel, for example if nova was actually good now the whole soaking with erik would be much easier to deny. Or if hammer was more popular he could push the lane against just olaf quite hard for example.





They should just add different activated talents along with the ones they already have...give them the same variation that other heroes get. They should just add different activated talents along with the ones they already have...give them the same variation that other heroes get. <3 Moonbattles

xDaunt Profile Joined March 2010 United States 17732 Posts #15 The biggest thing that needs to change with Vikings is that they need to award more XP to the enemy team when they're picked off. This will make split-laning riskier and actually add an element of counterplay. As things stand now, there is minimal penalty when Vikings get picked off.