EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: Here is our NBN debate with the Deputy PM and Communications Minister, Anthony Albanese, and the Opposition's Communications spokesman, Malcolm Turnbull.

Gentlemen, welcome.

MALCOLM TURNBULL, OPPOSITION COMMUNICATIONS SPOKESMAN: Good to be with you.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, DEPUTY PM AND COMMUNICATIONS MINISTER: Good to be with you.

EMMA ALBERICI: I'd like us to cover three broad areas tonight. The various costs of your NBN - respective NBN policies, the timeframe which you expect to be able to deliver those in and the technologies which will be afforded by your various incarnations of the NBN. Let me start with you, Mr Albanese, and specifically with one of the key issues, that is: you want to take fibre directly to people's homes. Mr Turnbull on the other hand thinks it's best to take it to the street corner, the so-called nodes. Tell us first of all, why is it important to take fibre all the way to people's homes?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well it is important that we embrace best technology and that Australia deserves the best. When it comes to fibre to the premise, whether it be to the home or the business, what that will ensure is that you have download speeds of 100 megabits per second, upload speeds, importantly, particularly for business, of 400 megabits per second. You will have it under our plan for the same price whether you live in the city or in a region, so that is really important in terms of wholesale pricing. You will also make sure that you do it once and that you do it right and you do it with fibre. When countries overseas have had plans like Malcolm's fibre-to-the-node plan, New Zealand had it, they were doing it, they stopped and said, "No, no, we're better off doing it once and getting the best technology, rather than going back and retrofitting it in the future." So this is really about providing a future stimulus to the way that our economy operates, but importantly, it will transform the way that education, health and aged care services are delivered. It will make smart manufacturing so that we can compete in our region and of course transform also the way that agriculture occurs in this country.

EMMA ALBERICI: And we'll get a chance to discuss all of those. Mr Turnbull, why do you say your fibre to the node, to the street corner is better?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, it's getting the right mix of technologies. We're not critical of fibre to the premises; indeed under our plan, at least 20 per cent of premises would be connected by fibre right into those premises. You use the technology that delivers the service you need in the most timely and cost effective way. The balance here is between the cost of deployment, the time it takes you to deploy it and the service level you deliver. Now, Anthony mentioned 100 megabits per second as being deliverable over fibre to the premises, and it certainly is, but it's also now deliverable, and ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: 1,000 ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: ... being delivered over fibre to the node at 400 metres distance from the node, which is a remarkable development in terms of the modern technologies. The approach that we are talking about taking is that ...

EMMA ALBERICI: So are you saying it can deliver the same thing?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: You can deliver 100 megabits per second at 400 - up to 400 metres away from the node on the existing legacy copper. Now the reason you do that, the reason you keep that last 200 or 300 or 400 or 500 metres of copper is because you save three quarters or more of the construction cost and three quarters or more of the time. And you can nonetheless deliver very, very high speeds. So you have to remember that speed is only of value to you in so far as you have applications that need it. If you're a household and you've got - you want to have a high definition video stream that needs six megs. Well, with 100 megs you could be downloading, streaming simultaneously 15 of them. That is quite a lot of video. Now the approach we're taking is the same that Deutsche Telecom is taking right now in Germany, British Telecom is taking right now in Britain, AT&T is taking right now in the United States. In Belgium, in Austria, in Switzerland ...

EMMA ALBERICI: And I think it's fair to say that they're doing that because that's what they can afford. Let's go to the next point.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, Well, well does that mean that money has no object in Australia, that we are so rich that we can blast away billions of dollars without worrying about the cost?

EMMA ALBERICI: Let's talk about how much the various policies are going to cost. Anthony Albanese, is the Government still confident that it can connect fibre to 8.5 million premises by 2021 for the sum total of $37.4 billion?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: We are absolutely. And important Emma, it's 1,000 megabits, not 100 as Malcolm suggested that we ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: You just said 100.

EMMA ALBERICI: You said 100, sorry.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well it's 1,000 megabits per second ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: So but you said 100, but you meant to say 1,000.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It's 1,000 megabits per second in terms of the download.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Thanks for clearing that up

ANTHONY ALBANESE: 400 upload. And what that will do is at a government equity, that is, government debt of $30.4 billion. Malcolm's plan is for 25, he says he can guarantee ...

EMMA ALBERICI: No, I'm talking about - let's take this one at a time.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: ... at a cost, at a cost, at a cost of ...

EMMA ALBERICI: We'll talk to Malcolm Turnbull about his plan. Can we talk about yours?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: At a cost of $29.5 billion.

EMMA ALBERICI: No, I want to talk about yours. Will you commit to be able to deliver by 2021 8.5 million premises ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Absolutely.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... with fibre for $37.4 billion sum total?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Absolutely. And the important thing is ...

EMMA ALBERICI: OK. We'll move on.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It's not just me, it's been - the corporate plan was considered by KPMG. They found that it was, in terms of the timelines and the costings, that all the assumptions were good.

EMMA ALBERICI: OK, so you're sticking by those figures. Now, Malcolm Turnbull, you say Labor's project will in fact cost $94 billion to complete and that yours will be $29.5 billion on the other hand. Now where do those figures come from, considering you've had no access to the NBN Co accounts or to its commercial agreements?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, we have had access to their corporate plan and we have had access to a financial model for the NBN. You're right: the NBN Co has not been very transparent, and indeed Anthony is sitting on the latest corporate plan, the latest revision of the business plan and has not released it to the public.

EMMA ALBERICI: Can answer my direct question, which is where do you get the $94 billion from, first of all?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, sure. OK. OK, I'll tell you. We changed four important assumptions. The NBN Co's business plan has a ridiculously overoptimistic view of its revenues. It believes that its broadband revenues will increase by nine per cent in real terms for 10 years. That is without precedent and contradicted ...

EMMA ALBERICI: The revenues?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: The revenues ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But we're talking about the cost.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Hang on ...

EMMA ALBERICI: You've said their project will cost $94 billion, which is different to revenue.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, the ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Let's not confuse the issues here. It's already confusing enough.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: OK, if you just let me finish, I'll explain. The peak funding requirement of this project is a - the sum of the revenues over the period, over the construction period, and the costs. So in other words, the cost is ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Isn't the cost just what it costs to build the network?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well because that is offset in part by the revenues. So the more revenues you've got that you're earning on the way through, the less is your peak funding requirement. But let's not have an argument about accounting. Let me just ...

EMMA ALBERICI: No, but I'd like to because it was on the front page of many newspapers, it was trumpeted by yourself on your blog and so on that this, instead of costing $37-odd billion was gonna cost $94 billion and curious to know where you get those figures.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No. The peak funding requirement under the Labor Party's plan, which is the sum of revenues and costs, is $44 billion. The peak funding requirement as assessed by us is $94 billion. And the difference comes from the fact that they have dramatically overestimated their revenues. They have underestimated the cost of construction - and you're seeing that. So we adjusted the cost of construction from $2,400 per premise to $3,600. And you've already seen contractors going broke, contractors demanding increased rates and increased rates being given, so there's a lot of evidence to support that. We've also assumed that they will take at least four more years to complete the project, which brings with it added costs, and we've assumed that there be more wireless-only households than they have assumed. Now, those four assumptions about revenues, cost of construction, wireless-only households and time are very reasonable ones. We put them out more than four months ago and nobody has been able to say that our assumptions are unreasonable, or, that given those assumptions, you would not end up with a $94 billion figure. And you'd think if they were wrong, in more than four months, the Government or NBN Co or somebody would've said, "No, Malcolm, you've got that number wrong." No-one has said that.

EMMA ALBERICI: OK. Mr Albanese, are they wrong?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: They've been plucked out of a Coco Pops packet. This is an absolute nonsense with no basis in fact, and indeed, the joint parliamentary committee, of which Malcolm is a member, did consider this and found there was no basis in fact. The NBN Co costs are now based upon - because it's being rolled out, are based upon actual - what is actually occurring right now with the rollout. So this isn't some theoretical basis. There's been proper scrutiny by major accountancy firms of the NBN Co business plans, ticked off by cabinet, a transparent process, all of those processes released for the public. And the difference comes down to $37 billion, yes, in terms of the cost of build, that's the CAPEX figure. In terms of government borrowings, however, it's just $30.4 billion. Because the business plan stacks up, the market's prepared to lend to NBN Co, which is the difference between the two. Malcolm's plan requires, because there is no business case, requires ...

EMMA ALBERICI: So you reject the $94 billion figure?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Absolutely. There is a three per cent difference, a three per cent difference in cost of government borrowing between the two plans, but our plan delivers speeds that are 40 times faster and that will need to be just done once and got it right. This is like building a two-lane Harbour Bridge, or it's like what happened with the Opera House now where we have a billion dollars needed to fix it up because cost cutting - politicians interfered, cut costs when it was first built and then it is always more expensive to go back and retro fit.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, Emma, let me just address ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: That looks like notes, Malcolm.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Let me address a couple of specifics. Under their corporate plan, the average revenue per customer starts at $22 a month and by 2020-'21 rises to $62 a month.

EMMA ALBERICI: Can we get to that - no, but we're not talking about what it's going to cost ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Alright. Well you've allowed Anthony to say I pulled these figures out of a Coco Pop. I'm going to give you the details and you don't want to hear me.

EMMA ALBERICI: But you're talking about revenue and my question was about the cost of construction. We need to be comparing apples for apples if we're to have coherent debate. Let me continue. Mr Turnbull, how can the Coalition claim to be able to deliver an NBN faster and cheaper without the cost-benefit analysis that you claim the Government didn't do itself in the first place?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well we've done very extensive work on the cost of the different technologies. The reality is that doing fibre to the node is much cheaper because you don't have to dig up every street, you don't have to ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But is it still going to be cheaper given what's already underway and the contracts that have already been signed and do your figures also take account of the fact that you will be having to pay Telstra, presumably, to maintain that extra copper?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well in preparing for in interview, I know you read our policy very carefully and you'll see we've assumed and dealt with all of those issues in the 60-page policy we put out four months ago and which the Deputy Prime Minister is saying is equivalent to pulling numbers out of a box of Coco Pops. And it shows the lack of regard he has for this important project and for the careful analysis of it that we've done that he is not able to or prepared to come to grips with any of the details.

EMMA ALBERICI: Mr Albanese, let me put something to you, 'cause you recently said that connection to Labor's NBN was free. But households will be charged to access it, won't they?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Of course they will, like you get charged when you use any service. But the connection is free. Malcolm's plan will charge ...

EMMA ALBERICI: The connection is free?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: In terms of to the home, the infrastructure is free. It's delivered and then you provide - this is ...

EMMA ALBERICI: It's accessible, but it's not free.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No, once you use it, of course you get charged for a service. But we know now that broadband, NBN, people who are connected up are being able to access the NBN for prices that are cheaper or the same price as ADSL up to figures like $29.95 packages ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But is that for the full 100 megabits per second or ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: 1,000.

EMMA ALBERICI: 1,000, sorry.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: What's interesting, Emma, is that already of those people who are taking up the NBN, one third are taking it up at a speed - because the higher the speed, the higher the price, as you'd expect; this is the market in operation - for a speed that's higher than will be delivered under the copper system being advocated by Malcolm. And with regard to the costs before - I'm not making things up. KPMG, an accountancy firm, have audited the accounts. That is what I'm relying upon: the facts. Not just a policy document.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: KPMG audited the accounts. They did not warrant the accuracy of the business plan.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: They absolutely ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: They did not.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Absolutely. KPMG and other accountancy firms ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well I think you'll - they'll have something to say about this tomorrow

ANTHONY ALBANESE: ... have looked at, have looked at the business plan. They have looked at the assumptions which are there.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well why don't you produce the latest business plan? It's sitting on your desk. Why don't you produce it? The company gave it to you only a month or so ago.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: That's not right. They have not produced the final business plan.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Oh, I see. You've made them keep the draft stamp on it so you don't have to give it out before the election.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: They have not produced the final business plan. When they do ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: You've got a time bomb ticking away. You've got a confession from the company that they're failing and you don't want to let the public know.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: When they do, Malcolm, it will be released publicly, as all of these processes, all of these processes have been transparent.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: After the election.

EMMA ALBERICI: Will you be releasing it before the election?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well, if we receive it, it's gotta be gone through the cabinet process. Of course we are now in caretaker mode.

EMMA ALBERICI: Do you have reason to believe they have received it?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: They have undoubtedly received it, haven't they?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Oh, you haven't.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: We have not received the final business plan, no.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Oh ...

EMMA ALBERICI: When you say final business plan, how is that different to the final business plan that was presented in December, 2010? Plans are normally done beforehand, aren't they, not during a project?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Yes, but there's an annual plan. That's the important thing here, Emma, is that there is more scrutiny and more transparency of this project than there is of - I as the minister am shareholder of a range of organisations, including the Australian Rail Track Corporation, etc. What we receive is an annual report, an annual report that goes through a process of independent outside assessment, goes through cabinet ...

EMMA ALBERICI: So it's to June 30?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: That's right, that's right.

EMMA ALBERICI: And we're now August 12th. Haven't received it yet?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: That's right. No, we have not received ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Have you got a date for receiving it?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: We have not received - well, that's up to the board, but we have not received the final business plan.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Can I just raise one question? Are you saying that it's - that it is - that under Labor you can have the NBN at no cost? Is that what you're saying?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No, of course in terms of services being delivered, when you buy a service, you purchase it - of course.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: OK. Alright. Well why does your Labor Party flyers - here's one - say ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: There's all your notes. (Inaudible) get access to the NBN for free.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: "Labor believes everyone should have the NBN at no cost, not just those who can afford it." That is what you guys are putting into every letterbox in Australia and you've just confirmed it is a lie, and you're the Deputy Prime Minister.

EMMA ALBERICI: Let me make a point, Mr Turnbull, because I think I understand where the discrepancy lies here, and that is that under your plan, fibre won't be going all the way to the home.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Correct. Well not every home. It'll go to greenfields estates ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You gotta pay for it. $5,000.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: It'll be a lot less than that, but anyway.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You've said thousands.

EMMA ALBERICI: How much will it cost if a household does want to upgrade at some point in the future to be able to access fibre directly to their home?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well I think - look, I think it's very unlikely that many, if any, will because the speeds available on VDSL, vectored VDSL, fibre to the node are so high ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Will they also allow the 1,000 megabits? The one gigabit?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No - well let me put this to you: let's say - Anthony said that fibre to the premises can deliver one gigabit per second, 1,000 megs, and you're quite right, it can. Do you know what it would cost to have a guaranteed one gig' service? At least $20,000 a month. $20,000 a month in combined virtual circuit chargers. So you see, when they talk about this massive capacity, this massive capacity, and say this has got to be made available ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Sorry, who's going to be paying $20,000 a month?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Because the - see, Anthony doesn't understand how thing is priced. Let me explain.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No-one's as smart as you, Malcolm.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, no - that is certainly not true. If you - when you are a retail service provider, you're Telstra, Optus or whatever, you have to buy a pipe of certain capacity from the customer's - your customer's premises back to the exchange, the point of interconnection. And the size of that pipe will determine how much contention your customers have.

EMMA ALBERICI: I think we're getting a little more technical - too technical for the purposes of this discussion because ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, you always shut me down when I'm about to make the most important point.

EMMA ALBERICI: I don't want to talk about pipes.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: OK, well let me just tell you something, Emma. The reality is this: if you want to have a guaranteed one gig' service, your retail service provider will have to buy one gig' of CVC for you and that is gonna cost $20,000 a month.

EMMA ALBERICI: For the average household?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, for any household, which is why, by the way, nobody will buy it other than businesses that need a very big ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Mr Albanese, do you actually know much a household would have to spend to access 1,000 megabits, one gigabit?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: The market of course will determine that. What we're ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Do you have an estimate?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: What we're doing here is building the infrastructure and then the market operates with competition. And what we know is also ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Well what's the wholesale price for one gigabit?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: What we know also is that the price comes down over a period of time. And what we know also, when it comes to usage - Year Seven. I've got a son in Year Seven.

EMMA ALBERICI: Are you going to answer my question, first of all? Sorry.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well the market will determine these things, Emma. This is not a government-owned monopoly.

EMMA ALBERICI: Doesn't that exist in your plans, an indication of what that will cost?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: The market will determine this, Emma. What we're doing is building the infrastructure. It will go to the home and to the business for free, which is what Mr Gray's talking about in that pamphlet - it will go to the business and the home for free. Then the market will operate with competition. See, this is as a result as well of the effort that we made for the structural separation of Telstra, not done when Telstra was privatised as should have occurred under the former government, something I think that Malcolm would concede. And at the same time, you had that not fixed and you had 22 separate broadband plans. What we've done is introduced a system whereby it will go to the home and to the business, get it right, do it once, do it with fibre, not with copper. This was a debate for 1910: copper versus iron.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Oh, ...

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It is not a debate in terms of fibre versus copper in 2013.

EMMA ALBERICI: Let me put it this way: is it fair to say that the fundamental difference between the two parties' policies is that Labor wants to socialise the infrastructure and the Coalition prefers a user pays system?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, that's not the case. There is a degree of socialisation in all networks because, you know, everybody pays a price, whether it's a water network or just whatever and there is a lot of cross-subsidisation. But the big difference is that we believe we can deliver the benefits of very fast broadband much sooner at less cost to the taxpayer and consequently more affordably for customers.

Now, can I just pick up on one point? Anthony said the prices are gonna come down. Their own business plan says that the average user charge is going to treble. The NBN Co is forecasting that by 2024 it will have revenues double that, double that that Deutsche Bank forecasts for the industry. So this is - their forecast is that they are going to soak and soak and soak Australian consumers. They're going to dramatically increase the share of wallet that is going to fix telecoms and we say that is neither equitable, nor frankly, achievable. Australians already are paying 30 per cent more for broadband than their American cousins and twice as much as people in Europe and this is going to make broadband in Australia even less affordable. So it's a lose for the taxpayer and a lose for the consumer. And Anthony can bluster about Coco Pops packets and iron and so forth as much as he likes; the facts are in his own documents. And he should have the respect for this debate and the billions of taxpayers' dollars that are being used in it to actually address the specific issues that we've raised and the criticisms that have been raised by the NBN Co's many critics.

EMMA ALBERICI: A final comment, Mr Albanese. Tell us why do Australian households actually need one gigabit?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Because it's about what we need just now, but also into the future. As I said, you know, a Year Seven student today will need six times the internet usage that they use today by the time they reach Year 12. The expansion in terms of services that are used in terms of the internet across a whole range of services - health, education, aged care, as well as of course for business where high-speed broadband is important because of the amount of data that's gotta be downloaded ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But one gigabit?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: This is critical. Well already businesses are saying that what they want is much greater than what Malcolm Turnbull's plan offers. I've done, for example, in Rosebery - just the other day I was with the Australian Industry Group at a manufacturing plant. They want - they want the NBN. They want access so that they compete with our neighbours. And what we have - you've gotta look at where the money goes as well. Look where Malcolm's money's gone. He's invested in French Telecom, which is having fibre to the home ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, they're dying VDSL, I promise you. They're like every telco in the world: they're doing a bit of both, and as the VDSL technologies have improved, they're doing much of that. Can I just make this point about advanced manufacturing ...

EMMA ALBERICI: You talk a lot about other countries, Mr Turnbull, but I would point out that the Nordic countries are pioneers and in fact just in the last few months, Sweden, the Swedish Government announced that its aim was to have 90 per cent of households by 2020 with fibre to the premises.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well a lot of governments set those goals in very grand ways, but they're very rarely achieved. The reality is that what's happened over the - say the last decade: the cost differential between fibre to the premise of three or four or five to one and fibre to the node has remained there (placing right hand at head level). But what's happened is that the speeds that are available over fibre to the node have improved dramatically to the point where, as I said, you can get 100 megs at 400 metres of copper from the node now with vectored VDSL. Now that is literally revolutionary and that's why Deutsche Telekom is going to do very little fibre to the premise, mostly fibre not node. British Telecom, which was gonna do 25 per cent fibre to the premise, is now only doing 10 per cent and people are changing the balance. You see the mistake this government made, the Labor government made was promising a specific technology. The smarter thing would've been to say, "We will make sure that everyone gets very fast broadband as soon as possible and we will use whatever are the most cost effective technologies at the time," and that way you don't lock yourself in to a technology that turns out to be much more time-consuming to implement and much more expensive to build.

Can I just say one point about advanced manufacturing? I agree that businesses like that do need very high bandwidth and they are exactly the places where you should have very big pipes, fibre into those factories and design centres, but that doesn't mean you need to have it into every house, bedsit, apartment, villa, whatever, all around the country. You've got to be a bit smarter about this, otherwise you end up not getting the jolly thing built and you take decades and of course you can run up billions and billions of dollars of unnecessary expense.

EMMA ALBERICI: A very brief final word, Anthony Albanese?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well, a couple of points. One is that copper isn't just about the speed, it's about reliability and fibre is much more reliable than copper is. Copper has problems so that - for example, delivery of health services. The advice is that if you're about delivering health services, aged care, keeping people in the home for longer, that the NBN will be able to do, to transform that, then you need reliability. That's why fibre's critical. Secondly, in terms of cost, it is $30.4 compared with $29.5. A marginal ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: It's $94 versus $29.5.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: A marginal cost difference in terms of government investment, but an enormous difference in terms of capacity. And importantly this is an investment. It's an investment that will produce a seven per cent return to government. This isn't like spending something where the money's just gone. It will bring an investment back. And in the 2010 election, Malcolm was very critical of our plan, the fact that it was off budget. If you'd recall that whole debate, that was the centre of it. "Oh, it's a rort, it's off budget," and they used chopping off the NBN as savings measures for other policies that they had. This time round, they're accepting that it's off budget, they're accepting therefore that it will produce a return and they're using the same system, except they've got $29.5 billion of government debt off budget.

EMMA ALBERICI: We have to wrap it there, unfortunately. I thank you both so much for coming in this evening.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Thank you.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Thank you.