Polish FM Sikorski on Russian sanctions

CNN’s Fareed Zakaria sat down with Poland’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, Radoslaw Sikorski, to discuss the latest sanctions on Russia and NATO’s role in Poland.

TEXT EXCERPTS

Polish FM Sikorski on Russian sanctions

ZAKARIA: Do you feel that there are any signs in the past that even the threat of these sanctions have had the effect presumably that you want, which is that Russia should stop supplying arms and people in Eastern Ukraine? My sense is, if anything, is that in the last week or two, those activities have sort of stepped up and the Russians themselves appear to be firing missiles at Ukrainian government planes.

SIKORSKI: These sanctions, I think, will get President Putin’s attention and will show that, despite what he has apparently thought, the West, as a moral community, exists. And can be united when we see the fundamental norms of international relations are undermined. Hitherto, I think Russian authorities assumed they could always play us off one against the other, and that we are incapable of joint action. This is the first indication that we are.

ZAKARIA: Do you think it was the airliner that changed things? Because my understanding, reports from what was happening within the European Union, was there was significant dissension. I mean, they — when people would talk about sanctions, non-British countries would argue for financial sanctions, which of course hurt over in London. Britain would argue for the kind of sanctions that would hurt France or Germany. And as a result, there was a standoff. Did the airliner break that logjam?

SIKORSKI: The airliner and the treatment of the bodies of the victims and the fact that they came from a number of EU countries definitely mobilized politicians in Europe. And crucial was the package put together by the European Commission, which spreads the pain of sanctions on our side fairly. Of course, I expect the Russian side to respond with counter-sanctions and they’ll probably try to divide us again.

Sikorski on NATO’s role in Poland

ZAKARIA: I wondered whether there was something specific you wanted out of Washington that would give more substance to your relationship with America?

SIKORSKI: Back in January, when Russian pressure was already on Ukraine, we had 10 U.S. troops in Poland. We now have 500 NATO troops in Poland. It’s progress. But the level of our concern at Russian action — actions has increased further. So we need reassurance — the eastern flank of NATO needs firming up. And we are hoping that the NATO summit in Wales in September will take important decisions to persuade us that Article Five of the Washington Treaty stands not only legally, but in terms of capability to enforce it in practice, which is what it’s all about.

ZAKARIA: Do you want more troops?

SIKORSKI: Yes, we do and we want prepositioning of equipment. We want a standing defense plans. We want bigger response forces. And unfortunately, the Russian actions in Ukraine don’t make us feel more secure, but less secure. One of our neighbors, Russia, is conducting a hybrid war against another of, you know, our neighbors. And we just can’t stand idly by.

A full transcript of the interview is available after the jump.

FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: On Tuesday, the United States and the European Union announced a new round of sanctions against Russia, this time targeting that nation’s energy, arms, and finance sectors. President Obama, who announced the new measures on the South Lawn of the White House, said they will have a bigger bite. The last couple of rounds of sanction have not had a visible effect in the sense that there has been no noticeable change in President Putin’s behavior. Why should we think this time will be different? Joining me now is the foreign minister of Poland, Radek Sikorski. His nation shares a border with Ukraine and he was an early leader in rallying the West against Putin’s actions in Crimea and Ukraine. Radek, tell me why you think this set of sanctions will pressure Putin to change behavior that so far he hasn’t really changed.

RADOSLAW SIKORSKI, FOREIGN MINISTER OF POLAND: Well, we have put new names on the sanctions list, and these are financial supporters and beneficiaries of President Putin’s mode of government. And we’ve also banned the issuance of new bonds or shares by major Russian financial institutions, which will make access to capital harder. The other sanctions might have some influence over the medium term.

ZAKARIA: But do you feel that there are any signs in the past that even the threat of these sanctions have had the effect presumably that you want, which is that Russia should stop supplying arms and people in Eastern Ukraine? My sense is, if anything, is that in the last week or two, those activities have sort of stepped up and the Russians themselves appear to be firing missiles at Ukrainian government planes.

SIKORSKI: These sanctions, I think, will get President Putin’s attention and will show that, despite what he has apparently thought, the West, as a moral community, exists. And can be united when we see the fundamental norms of international relations are undermined. Hitherto, I think Russian authorities assumed they could always play us off one against the other, and that we are incapable of joint action. This is the first indication that we are.

ZAKARIA: Do you think it was the airliner that changed things? Because my understanding, reports from what was happening within the European Union, was there was significant dissension. I mean, they — when people would talk about sanctions, non-British countries would argue for financial sanctions, which of course hurt over in London. Britain would argue for the kind of sanctions that would hurt France or Germany. And as a result, there was a standoff. Did the airliner break that logjam?

SIKORSKI: The airliner and the treatment of the bodies of the victims and the fact that they came from a number of EU countries definitely mobilized politicians in Europe. And crucial was the package put together by the European Commission, which spreads the pain of sanctions on our side fairly. Of course, I expect the Russian side to respond with counter-sanctions and they’ll probably try to divide us again.

ZAKARIA: How hard will that be for Poland? Ninety percent of your energy imports come from Russia.

SIKORSKI: Well, Russia needs to sell its energy even more than we need to buy it, because we can buy energy from other directions, from Norway, where I am currently, also from North Africa. Oil can be shipped. We are just finishing our LNG terminal. But Russia is an important trade partner for Poland, twice as important as for Germany in proportion. So there will be losses all around. But we just cannot stand idly by when Russia annexes, for the first time since the Second World War, a neighbor’s first province. And now supplying sophisticated weaponry to the separatists.

ZAKARIA: The columnist, Anne Applebaum, who happens to be your wife, wrote a column in “The Washington Post” in which she said that the West has treated Russia as a kind of proto-Western country, a country that was almost Western, just needed a little bit more integration and modernization, but that we should really think of it as, in its roots, a country that defines itself in its opposition to the West. Do you agree with that?

SIKORSKI: Well, my wife is a separate subject of international laws — law and her views are hers. But, yes, it’s true that we have bent over backwards to integrate Russia. We invited Russia to take over the Soviet Union’s seat from the seat of the Security Council. We invited Russia into WTO. Poland supported Russia’s bid to join the OECD. We were hoping that Russia was broadly on a conversion — convergence course with the West. But if, as you said previously, Russia spread mischief in the — in what it calls the near abroad, then, inevitably, we’ll come into conflict, which Poland would regret. You know, we would like Russia to become a successful free market democracy. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the system that President Putin is constructing in Russia.

ZAKARIA: Radek, you were taped, illegally, I should say, as saying something to the effect that the Polish-American relationship was worthless. I wondered whether there was something specific you wanted out of Washington that would give more substance to your relationship with America?

SIKORSKI: As you say, it was an illegal racket, which is under criminal investigation. But, yes, back in January, when Russian pressure was already on Ukraine, we had 10 U.S. troops in Poland. We now have 500 NATO troops in Poland. It’s progress. But the level of our concern at Russian action — actions has increased further. So we need reassurance — the eastern flank of NATO needs firming up. And we are hoping that the NATO summit in Wales in September will take important decisions to persuade us that Article Five of the Washington Treaty stands not only legally, but in terms of capability to enforce it in practice, which is what it’s all about.

ZAKARIA: Do you want more troops?

SIKORSKI: Yes, we do and we want prepositioning of equipment. We want a standing defense plans. We want bigger response forces. And unfortunately, the Russian actions in Ukraine don’t make us feel more secure, but less secure. One of our neighbors, Russia, is conducting a hybrid war against another of, you know, our neighbors. And we just can’t stand idly by.

ZAKARIA: Radek Sikorski, always an eloquent voice on the subject. Thank you very much.

SIKORSKI: Thanks.

ZAKARIA: Next up, the Ebola epidemic raging in West Africa. How can it be brought under control? I have two top experts: the man who discovered the disease and our own Sanjay Gupta.