I told the officers that I saw a fire, orange in color, when I was driving from the Radandt sand and gravel pit to the hunting camp on October 31, 2005, at approximately 5:00 p.m. I told the officers that I saw the fire from the direction of the Avery property. Because it was dark or getting dark when I saw the fire, I was not sure where exactly the fire was located. I did not observe any smoke coming from the fire.



The fire did not appear to be spread out and its flames appeared to be 2.5-3 feet in height. These characteristics were consistent with my personal knowledge of burn barrel fires. Because I observed these characteristics, I assumed the fire was contained in a burn barrel. I did not see whether the fire was actually contained in a burn barrel.



After I told them this information, the officers asked me to follow them by automobile over public highways to the business area of Avery's Auto Salvage, where law enforcement had a command post. There, I made a written statement at approximately 5:30 p.m.







Less than one week after I provided that written statement, two officers, who I believe were from the Wisconsin Department of Justice, met me at the hunting camp to discuss the fire I saw. I remember them asking me if I was sure that I saw what I said I saw. It seemed to me that they weren't satisfied with my statement about the fire. Specifically, it seemed to me that they wanted me to change my story to include a larger fire. Because they were reluctant to accept my story as true, I eventually asked them what they wanted me to say. They told me that all they wanted was the truth. I advised them that I had been telling the truth.



At that time, I was told by DOJ agents that they believed that Teresa Halbach's vehicle was driven to the Kuss Rd cul-de-sac by driving west through an empty field, then south down the gravel road past the hunting camp until reaching an intersection with a gravel road that ran northeast into the Avery property.



They told me that they believed Halbach's vehicle turned northeast onto the gravel road and entered the Avery property at its southwest corner. It is my understanding that this theory was based on the work of scent tracking dogs.



I also read and heard it from others that law enforcement stated that they believed that Teresa Halbach's vehicle was stored somewhere on Radandt's property before it was moved to the southeast corner of Avery property.



Later that week I received a call from law enforcement on my cell phone. Law enforcement asked me to unlock my three hunting trailers so they could be searched. I left work and drove to the hunting camp. When I arrived there was nobody there. I unlocked my trailers and left.



It is my understanding that they were searched by law enforcement and scent tracking dogs.



Later that day law enforcement called my phone again. They informed me they completed their search and I could use them again normally.



During the course of the conversation law enforcement informed me that they were going to collect the contents of the burn barrel at the hunting camp at a later time. When I returned to camp they had the area cordoned off surrounding the burn barrel and had officers to watch the burn barrel day and night on a rotating basis until its contents were collected.



A few days after November 5, 2005, I remember seeing light in the Manitowoc County sand and gravel pit to the south of Radandt's property. I remember that the lights appeared to illuminate the entire Manitowoc County pit.



I understand that there were suspected human pelvic bones recovered from a gravel pit property south of Avery's Auto Salvage. Upon reviewing a map showing the coordinates at which these bones were found, I believe they were found in the Manitowoc County sand and gravel pit.



Prior to November 5, 2005, the only permanent security measures in place to prevent access to the Radandt sand and gravel pit by trespassers were "Private Property" signs posted at all entrances. There were locking gates or cables at each access road, but they were rarely used.



Approximately one or two months before the start of Mr. Avery's criminal trial in 2007, I was summoned to the courthouse. At the courthouse, I was questioned again about my recollection of seeing a fire in the direction of the Avery property on October 31, 2005. I was not called as a witness to testify at Mr. Avery's criminal trial in 2007.

1. LE knew that RAV4 was stored on Radandt's property before being moved.

2. LE knew the route that RAV4 took to get where it was found.

3. LE found the bones, maybe even burned them themselves, and protected them round the clock till they could be planted and re-found in/near Steven Avery's burn pit. Do we have pictures of any of either location? Oh yeah, never mind that!

4. We have bright lights in the Manitowoc county gravel pit, illuminating everything. Could someone have been picking the best, most identifiable bones for the planting? Oops, they dropped a few along the way! Don't worry, we'll just try to convince/strong arm the neighbor into saying the fire was MUCH bigger than it actually was, and we'll just leave a few random bones around his property so he'll be sure to cooperate with us.

5. After reading Radant's statement, this case goes straight to the top!

6. Thank you for the truth Joshua Radant! Wish there were more like you around there. So sorry you got wrapped up for so long in all this.

I remember them asking me if I was sure that I saw what I said I saw. It seemed to me that they weren't satisfied with my statement about the fire. Specifically, it seemed to me that they wanted me to change my story to include a larger fire. Because they were reluctant to accept my story as true, I eventually asked them what they wanted me to say. They told me that all they wanted was the truth. I advised them that I had been telling the truth.

When Mr. Radandt told investigators that he saw a fire on the Avery properly on October 31, 2005, he described the fire as appearing to be contained to a fifty-five gallon drum. When investigators re-interviewed Mr. Radandt on November 10, 2005, they pressured him to describe the fire as large, behind Mr. Avery's garage, and in an open burn pit. Mr. Radandt never told investigators that the fire was behind Mr. Avery's garage. Mr. Radandt sets forth in his affidavit that he remembers seeing the fire, contained to a burn barrel, and between several trailers on the Avery property.



Trial defense counsel failed to investigate Mr. Radandt's observation of a fire on the Avery property. Had trial defense counsel investigated Mr. Radandt, they would have learned that investigators had pressured Mr. Radandt to exaggerate the size of the fire, and he refused to do so. If trial defense counsel had called Mr. Radandt as a witness, his testimony would have demonstrated to the jury that the investigators knew Ms. Halbach's vehicle had been driven through his gravel pit and planted on Mr. Avery's property. The jury would also have learned of the efforts of the investigators to pressure Mr. Radandt to exaggerate the size of the fire.

Bone fragments could not have actually been located in burn barrel no. two because this barrel had already been sifted by WSCL personnel on November 7, and no human bone fragments were discovered in this barrel or any of the barrels examined at that time. During their examination of barrel no. two on November 7, 2005, WSCL personnel used the same sifting apparatus that they later used to sift the burn pit behind Mr. Avery's garage. Suspiciously, the pieces of burned bone that were eventually found in barrel no. two were noticeably larger than the bone fragments from the burn pit. If bone fragments had been in burn barrel no. two when it was examined by Mr. Ertl and his team from the WSCL on November 7, 2005, the bone fragments would have been isolated by their sifting apparatus.

After being spoken to by Sheriff Pagel, Deputy Sippel, Deputy Bowe and DCI agents, I explained my plamed areas of running tracks. My two areas of interest were where the vehicle was located on the south end of the property and the other being from the area that Teresa was last seen taking photographs of the van by the trailer of Steven Avery. Deputy Rick Riemer of the Calumet County Sheriff's Department was assigned to assist me on the tracks.



We walked down the driveway to the Avery property to the area where the van was sitting and for sale. I pre-scented K9 Loof and did a perimeter scent inventory. K9 Loof was harnessed, given the scent article of the insole [of Teresa's shoe] and given the command of "Find."



Having started approximately 50 feet east of the van, K9 Loof immediately went to the front portion of the van for sale. K9 Loof continued west going to a black F350 parked in the driveway in front of a garage. K9 Loof went to both doors of the truck. K9 Loof then went directly to the service door of the garage and worked her nose along the bottom of the actual overhead garage door, showing much interest.



K9 Loof worked west around the side of the garage but was unable to continue due to a large aggressive appearing German Shepard. K9 Loof wanted to continue around the garage.



K9 Loof went up to the south door of the trailer home. The door having a small porch entrance and the door was white in color. K9 Loof wanted to enter the home. K9 Loof continued north along the trailer and went between some pine trees and a burning barrel. K9 Loof smelled a charred area showing some interest then continued west.



K9 Loof went west in a picked cornfield. Directly to the south was a gravel pit and in between the two was an area of brush and trees. K9 Loof worked this area with indications of very strong scent. K9 Loof worked west coming out to a cul-de-sac [at the end of Kuss Road] that was taped off with crime scene tape and two deputies were not allowing access . K9 Loof crossed the tape on one occasion and then was told not to go any further. The deputies phoned Sheriff Pagel to see if I could continue but were told to not allow anyone access at this time .



K9 Loof was unharnessed and we waited for further instructions.



K9 Loof worked consistently as she does while working "strong scent."



Witnessed by Deputy Rick Riemer.

and running south to the corner of the salvage yard, where gravel conveyor is located.

Brutus‏ @cadaverdogbrutu

Pagel and his Kuss Road blockade...turns the true heroes away on the day...sniffer dogs. Unbelievable. #hownottorunalegitinvestigation



TickTockManitowoc @TManitowoc

Picture this scene: "Any sign of my missing Teresa?" "No sorry, Ms. Halbach...our sheriff blocked the search and rescue dogs from looking."

Q Do you have any statutory or, you know, duties

under law, to, um, uh, control the disposition of

human remains?

ATTORNEY GAHN: Your Honor, I -- I'm --

I'm sorry, Your Honor. I think we need to be

heard outside the presence of the jury.

response that she began, in her capacity as the

Manitowoc County Coroner, um, in her efforts,

then, to obtain access to human remains, uh, how

those were rebuffed by, um -- specifically by

Investigator Mark Wiegert, as the person with

whom she recalls having contact, um, and then she

was later, um, told that, uh, she was not to get

involved, um, by the unusual, she will say,

intervention of the Manitowoc County Executive

and, later, the Corporation Counsel.

Uh, and in

the end, she was prevented from discharging her

statutory duties as coroner.

ATTORNEY STRANG: Well, it probably

would have been prudent to remove all Manitowoc

County officials from the investigation. But

we've heard for a month just exactly how that

wasn't done with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's

Department. And, unlike the Sheriff's

Department, neither Ms. Kakatsch, nor the office

of coroner, nor anyone in the coroner's office,

had any prior involvement in Steven Avery's civil

lawsuit.

and turning to the Milwaukee County Medical

Examiner a year after this death, uh, when he had

no involvement at the scene, uh, rather than

having the local official whose job it was to

investigate a suspicious death, to sign a death

certificate, to determine manner of death, the

State -- the State's put all of that, uh, in play

with Dr. Jentzen and even trying to use an

anthropologist for that.

Here's the official

under Wisconsin law whose duty it is to do

exactly these things, and in her county she was

prevented from discharging that duty.

ATTORNEY STRANG: Well, I think

preferring one Manitowoc County office to another

Manitowoc County office in itself, here, Your

Honor, bears on investigative bias. It goes

directly to the issue of consistency, if you

will, and inconsistency that reflects a

particular bias. This jury is entitled to see it

and, uh, rule upon.

ATTORNEY STRANG: I think there's also

probative value more narrowly in showing this

jury that a forensic anthropologist could have

been there, could have been at the scene and

involved in the recovery, um, had the law

enforcement people followed the usual lawful

routine of notifying the county coroner upon

discovery of suspected human remains. Um, that

could have happened here, and the normal steps

contemplated by Wisconsin Statutes been taken

here.

this witness had telephonic contact,

she will say, with Investigator Mark Wiegert, uh,

who's been identified as one of the two lead

investigators on the case and who testified, um,

yesterday.

she then contacted, um, investigators at the

scene, um, asked why she had not been called.

Um, made arrangements to come to the scene, uh,

on the 9th of November. Uh, was put off, um, in

two or three telephone conversations with

Mr. Wiegert.

Uh, she was not, in the end,

allowed on the scene. Uh, she did not have a

chance to determine the cause or the manner of

death.

She did receive, on the 9th or 10th of

November, a phone call from Dan Fischer, who she

identifies as the County Executive of Manitowoc

County, uh, telling her, in essence, that there

was a conflict of interest and she ought not push

to be involved.

She would

say that it was very unusual for her to get a

phone call from the County Executive at all.

She protested that she and her office

had nothing to do with the civil lawsuit that

Mr. Avery had brought. Had no involvement in it

whatsoever, um, but realized that she was meeting

firm resistance.

And, finally, she would explain that she

had no involvement at anytime with Steven Avery's

civil lawsuit. She wasn't deposed. She wasn't

interviewed by either side. So nobody had any

contact with her at all, um, in relation to the,

uh, civil lawsuit against Manitowoc County.

Um, and for

that reason the Court is not going to allow it.

ATTORNEY STRANG: Right. It's -- it's

bias. It's a double standard that's employed, in

our view by, um, uh, the people running

investigation, including those who testified as

witnesses here, or were involved in it.

Joshua Radandt gave an affidavit, which was included in Kathleen Zellner's motion for post-conviction relief filed on June 7, 2017.The following is part of Radandt's affidavit (when he says "later that week," he is talking about the week following Teresa's disappearance, and "later that week" would be November 10th or 11th, but not November 12th since that is the day the contents of " deer camp burn barrel #2 " were processed):The following is a summary on the impact of Joshua Radandt's affidavit (credit to redditer 7-pair-of-panties ):Zellner noted in her June 7, 2017 motion that "Mr. Radandt has been unfairly targeted as a possible suspect because he owned land adjacent to the Avery property." She also noted: "Current post-conviction counsel has interviewed Mr. Radandt on two occasions and has been accompanied by him twice to view all of his property. No evidence exists that implicates Mr. Radandt in the murder of Ms. Halbach, and he has a solid alibi for the afternoon of October 31st, 2005."Zellner wrote in her June 7, 2017 motion that law enforcement pressured Joshua Radandt to describe the fire he observed on October 31st around 4:30 p.m. as a large fire behind Steven Avery's garage, in an open burn pit, even though in his written statement on November 5th Radandt described the fire as being in a burn barrel. Radandt stated:The following in from Zellner's June 7, 2017 motion for post-conviction relief, in the section labelled, "Trial Defense Counsel Failed to Investigate the Veracity of the Police Reports Regarding Joshua Radandt" (Radandt was on both the prosecution's and defense's witness lists but neither team called him to the stand).Regarding the burn barrels, Zellner wrote on page 76 of the motion filed on June 7, 2017:The following is a report by Sarah Fauske, the handler for Loof the bloodhound, who, on November 5th, was tasked with tracking Teresa's scent ( exhibit 46 of the motion for post-conviction relief filed on June 7, 2017).Investigators would not allow Loof, with his handler Sarah Fauske and Deputy Rick Riemer, to cross the crime scene tape onto Kuss Road, the site of a possible burial site.The following is a report from, which was attached as an exhibit to Zellner's post-conviction petition.GLSAR [Great Lakes Search and Rescue] members arrived on scene at the roadblock at CTH Q/Hwy 147 in Manitowoc County at 2:45 pm on, responding to a page from Manitowoc County Sheriff's Dept.At approximately 3:30 pm, one cadaver dog team was requested to proceed to the command post on the Avery salyage yard property.and handler Julie Cramer with back up handler Bob Cramer.Brutus checked the car crusher and numerous vehiclesHe turned to proceed west and gave a headcheck[Teresa Halbach's RAV4],(ALERT #1)After investigators noted his response and identified the vehicle as belonging to the victim, we continued to work vehicles in the area.Brutus showed interest along the berm south of the vehicle.no second alert was given in that area.Several spent shell casings were noted in the area, but no scent source was located at that time (ALERT #2).We continued around the gravel pit, returning to the area of the salvage yard, checked the pond area directly north of the victim's vehicle, rechecked the car crusher, and returned to command post.At this time 4 teams: K9 Lucy, K9 Trace, K9 Rieseling and K9 Cody, were sent to begin checking vehicles in the salvage yard.During this search, the four dog teams used the existing roads through the salvage yard to create grid patterns and did a specific vehicle checks of each vehicle their areas. Two teams reported an alert in the same area.While both dogs alerted, no scent source was located at this time.K9 Brutus was now re-assigned to check various specific areas/buildings with investigators. We first moved to the red mobile home,(ALERT #4). No source scent was visible at the time.Moving outside,(ALERT #5). We moved east to numerous outbuildings and machine sheds, checking ATVs, diggers, front end loaders and trailers, as well as building interiors. K9 Brutus alerted onin the maintenance building (ALERT #6) and on aparked in a small building behind the main residence on the property (ALERT #7). Brutus then returned to the command post.All GLSAR canine cleared the scene after completing these assignments.It should be noted that onduring the hours that the dog teams worked,Heavy rains and darkness hampered attempts to locate the scent sources the dogs alerted on. All indications were reported to the command post, and law enforcement officers accompanied each GLSAR dog team.OnGLSAR mernbers arrived at the search scene at the Avery Salvage yard at 7:30 am, responding to a page from the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept.Initially 2 (HRD) cadaver dogs were given assignments.Lucy was sent to check perimeters of building and structures in the compound. K9 Lucy showed increased interest in the area of a breezeway between a light green residence and garage, however, no alert was given.K9 Brutus was sent to recheck the area of the car crusher and vehicles in the southeast corner of the salvage yard. Brutus alerted on 2 vehicles (ALERT #8) that were parked on the west side of the pond, north of where the victim's vehicle had been the previous evening.however, both vehicles were flagged and rechecked by K9 Lucy.Both Brutus and Lucy checked the pond in that area with no alerts. As we exited the salvage yard,(ALERT #9).K9 Simon and K9 Cody were dispatched to check vehicles parked in fenced area west of the main salvage yard, along a gravel road that was west of Steven Avery's residence. Both dogs cleared their area with specific vehicle checks, neither reporting any alerts.K9 Trace checked the exterior of Steven Avery's residence and red van in driveway without alert.K9 Lucy, K9 Trace, K9 Rieseling, K9 Simon set up a grid pattern to clear this area.(ALERT #10).K9 Simon and K9 Lucy returned to cornmand postK9 Trace and K9 Reiseling proceeded to an area of 2 ponds west of the salvage yard, being searched by the Winnebago Dive team. These dogs cleared the quarry south of the ponds, and then returned to base, no alerts reported in this area.The next area searched by GLSAR K9 was theK9 Cody, K9 Simon, K9 Harley and K9 Kova gridded that quarry, working from south to north. An alert was reported in the center of the pit, along a sand pile, and marked with a tag (ALERT #11). This area was marked by K9 Kova and rechecked by K9 Simon and K9 Cody, both of whom showed interest....with K9 Cody alerting just north of that location.Upon completion of these assignments, GLSAR handlers and teams from Midwest K9 cleared the scene after meeting with Lt. Brett Bowe at the Command Post.Other canine with civilian handlers were on scene at this time.On, weather was again a factor working against the dogs. There was rain and sleet early in the day, with high winds. Dog handlers set up varied grid patterns to account for wind conditions. Alerts were reported to back up personnel and command post.On Monday, Julie and Bob Cramer responded to the scene with K9 Brutus and K9 Trace at the request of Investigator Dedering of the Calumet County Sherift's Dept.We arrived on scene at 11:30 am and were asked to, where dogs had alerted the day before.We then proceeded to a location we were requested to check on, where ahad been located.Upon arrival thereand(ALERT #12) and seemed to be particularly interested in a shovellying next to the disturbed earth.The shovel had been removed and was to be checked separately. Neither dog showed any interest on the shovel.K9 Trace checked the wooded area first, and did not alert,We then returned to the Command Post and were asked to, where there had been an alert a day prior (ALERT #9). At the exterior of the home, Brutus again barked at the door and scratched to enter the residence. K9 Trace also barked at the front door. Once inside the trailer, K9 Brutus proceeded to check the interior,He was very agitated but no sense source was noticed.This provided a better overview for our team leadership on areas that needed additional coverage. We were also better able to provide appropriate resources for assignment., Julie Cramer with K9 Brutus and K9 Trace and Grace Salm with K9 Cody responded to the scene arriving at noon. We were dispatched to the Malle property on CTH Q just outside the village of Larrabee to check some ponds and a hunting club location. The 2 canine teams divided the area and worked a grid pattern, checking ponds, buildings and wooded areas with no alerts reported.K9 Brutus was then sent to check the berm just west of Steven Avery's property. There was report of a suspicious looking pile of disturbed earth. Brutus showed no interest in pile,His behavior was noted by law enforcement personnel in the area, who indicated thatWe continued through the salvage yard, checking several vehicles as requested by State Patrol personnel. At 2 different vehicles K9 Brutus alerted,These were not marked further by this dog handler.Upon returning to the command post, we met with the Bloodhound handlers on scene and it was noted thatlthough no scent source has been located in the area.After this meeting GLSAR handlers cleared the scene for the day.It should be noted that the Bloodhound handlers on scene are not part of Great Lakes Search and Rescue Canine, Inc.....nor have we any copies of their credentials or certifications, however, we worked with Judy Discher in the past and were familiar with her methods. We felt comfortable comparing notes and exchanging information with the hound handlers that was pertinent to the search.On, Bob and Julie Cramer returned to the Avery salvage yard with K9 Trace and K9 Brutus in response to a request byWe were asked to check a fenceline that ran east-west, west of Steven Avery's home.(ALERT #14). The rest of the fenceline was checked without alert.We were then sent to the, south of the Avery property. K9 Brutus was transported by ATV to that location wherehad been identified. We checked several areas in the gravel pit and fresh digs in the walls of the pit,Numerous shell casings and unspent bullets were observed.(ALERT #15). These locations were double flagged for identification, once the locations were logged/mapped for evidence.We were transported back to command post after this assignment was complete.advising Calumet County officials that we would be available on our pager should any further assignments arise.Conclusion: The conclusion drawn by the Cadaver Recovery/HRD dogs of Great Lakes Search and Rescue Canine, Inc on the Avery property, was that there were several locations on that property that were alerted to by the dogs and marked by handlers. It is our hope that these alerts will be useful in the conclusions of this missing person case.At no time did any GLSAR handler attempt to collect or disturb evidence, but sirnply presented the alerts and indications of our dogs to the agencies in charge of this case.A map is attached labeled with theby GLSAR dogs. Additional information or individual handler reports are available upon request.Respectfully submitted,Julie A Cramer, Training DirectorGreat Lakes Search and Rescue Canine, Inc.On Thursday, November 3rd, Allen Avery drove driven himself to the family's vacation property in Marinette County, which he did every Thursday, normally not returning to the Avery property in Manitowoc County until Tuesdays.On Friday, November 4th, at about 7:30 p.m., Chuck Avery left his home on the Avery property, where he lived alone, and drove with Brendan Dassey to the family's vacation property in Marinette County for the weekend.On Saturday, November 5th, Steven Avery, along with his mother Dolores and nephew Byran, drove up to the family's vacation property in Marinette County around 6 a.m.This means that Allen and Dolores' trailer, Chuck's trailer, and Steven's trailer were unoccupied (Earl Avery's home was not on the Avery property).The only home on the Avery property that potentially was occupied after 6 a.m. on Saturday morning, November 5th, was Barb Janda's. Barb, Tom Janda and Bobby Dassey may have been home (Blaine drove up to Marinette County with Chuck on Friday, and Bryan drove up with Steven on Saturday). Barb's other son Blaine had spent Friday night at the home of one of his friend's, and he hadn't returned home by the time the Avery property was commandeered around 11 a.m. on Saturday, November 5th.It was an established pattern for many members of the Avery family, including Steven and his parents, as well as Chuck Avery and some of the Dassey brothers, to spend the weekends in Marinette County. Allen Avery spent Thursday through Monday in Marinette County, returning to Avery Salvage Yard on Tuesdays. Chuck would drive up on Friday evenings like clockwork, and Steven would drive up on Friday or Saturday. Their mother Dolores would ride along with one of her sons.If someone had been watching and waiting for the opportunity to plant the RAV4 on the Avery property, the best time to plant it on a Friday would have been after 7:30 p.m. However, to avoid detection, the ideal time would have been in the dead of night. Perhaps the framer's absence from home in the dead of night would have been noticed and considered unusual, so maybe he needed to accomplish this during a period of time when he normally would be out of the house; otherwise, it would have raised questions and concerns as to why he wasn't home, or why he arrived home, in the dead of the night.The ilium -- it is the only piece of evidence that wasn't found by MTSO/CASO (found by a WI State Trooper?). It seemingly should've thrown a wrench in the whole case.Available documents don't seem to indicate discovery of the quarry bone -- trial exhibit 113 or the CASO reports should have it. MTSO reports essentially cease on November 8.Note: the quarry/Radandt's is referred to at times as a "gravel pit" and the salvage yard area of the Avery property is called "the pit" by family members.There was a news clip that said that State Troopers were searching the quarry. I'm not sure which day. Maybe one of the troopers found the bones in the "quarry pile."http://wbay.com/2016/01/07/video-nov-10-2005-halbach-case-becomes-a-homicide-investigation/The mention of the quarry is at 2:20 to 2:40 mark -- LE putting red flags in a quarry on November 10.The newscast specifically says that these troopers were putting out the red flags around the quarry "today," which was November 10.If not November 10 in the video, it would have to be someone in one of those November 7 search groups -- group B or C or whatever -- since those don't seem to be anywhere in the MTSO reports. And Exhibit 113 that Austin prepared should indicate that as well.November 7 discovery would make sense for the bones in Avery's pit to be found on November 8. Or perhaps a search party individual found them November 5.Deputy Siders, page 13, mentions separate search groups on November 7. He was in Group A that went north, so maybe Group B or C searched that area? That would make sense if one of those groups found it. Odd thing is, he mentions Jost, but Jost doesn't seem to have any report filed for November 7.Another interesting thing -- Jost talks about the burn pit having been dug out by a front-end loader. In the trial, there's also testimony of Radandt helping dig out silt ponds on the quarry property.http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdfThe criminal complaint mentions the ilium, but nothing about it being discovered in the quarry -- deceptive wording -- the complaint gives the impression that the ilium was part of the burn pit fragments.It's possible the troopers found the bones in the "quarry pile." And this is why the quarry was lighted (per Radandt's affidavit) -- to search it for more bones and other evidence.In the trial testimony, there's discussion of searching the quarry property and digging out silt ponds on the Radandt property. Bowe is the witness (appears to be Evidence Tag No. 8675).http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-4-2007Feb15.pdf#page=61From Eisenberg's testimony, it sounds like it is from Austin's report that she is aware of the bones and their location.Austin apparently says Eisenberg gave him the location, and Eisenberg says the materials were given to her under that Evidence Tag.http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-3-2007Feb14.pdf#page=155Eisenberg testimony -- appears to be Evidence Tag No. 8675 and Exhibit 402 shows the location, and discovery would appear to be documented in a report by a Trooper Austin (Wisconsin State Trooper).The Austin report is outside the scope of what's been requested thus far since he's not MTSO/CASO.Looks like the ilium was found SW of the Avery property from the transcript. Hermann, page 9, mentions search party individuals to the SW on November 5 and telling them to leave.On November 5 around 11 AM:Indivduals were observed to the SW of the Avery Auto Salvage in a gravel pit area, near a gravel conveyer while officers were on the scene in the salvage yard. DI Schetter and (Lt. Todd Hermann) walked through the yard to the area where we made contact with five subjects: Kristy Hazaert, Jolene Bain, Sherry Lemerond, Aubrey Wygralak, and Trinity Rosenow. These subjects indicated they were friends of the Halbach family and were assisting with search efforts. "I identified the persons, and they were advised that, at this time, the salvage yard area is a secured area and they needed to leave the general area."http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdfEisenberg on direct says in early November of 2005 she was requested by CASO to examine some human remains that had been recovered; a voicemail was left November 9 from DCI [this would be the pelvic bone found on the burn pile at Radandt's quarry].Conceivably it could've been found after DCI contacted her.At trial, Eisenberg talks about being given the exhibit, and Austin says Eisenberg's team gave him the location? So who gave Eisenberg the bone and how did Eisenberg know the location?The quarry bones don't seem to come up on direct exam. I guess they didn't want to talk about it.They don't even seem to want to acknowledge that there were bones from a third site.How does the defense even know that bones were discovered at the quarry? Where is that information? It had to be in discovery, probably a CASO report or in one of Austin's/Eisenberg's reportsThe timeline:(1) someone requests Marinette ask SA about fires/burning,(2) Marinette asks SA on 11/6 regarding burning behavior,(3) relays info back to requestor,(4) attempted coordination with Radandt regarding his fire statement on 11/5,(5) bones transferred on 11/7 to location consistent with Radandt's statement and not inconsistent with what SA told Marinette,(6) bones discovered at Avery's on 11/8,(7) MTSO pulls back after 11/8 to make investigation appear independent,(8) Someone (Wisconsin State Trooper) discovers a bone fragment on November 8-10 that was inadvertently left on the quarry after MTSO pulled out, so that undesirably makes it into discovery.Austin actually testified on Day 3 (starting on page 114).I think the most interesting/important thing about this issue is that this information was not divulged at the trial. The trial had testimony from both the person who discovered TH's plates and the state trooper who gave him the plate number to verify that they were hers -- yet the history of the quarry bones seems shrouded in mystery.The implication in Eisenberg's testimony seems to be she learned about the item and its location from Austin's report -- hard to believe that wouldn't describe either the discovery of the bones or who informed Austin of the discovery/location.The prosecution case --- they don't call the person who informed them of the fire (Radandt) or the person that found the bones (Jost).It suggests they didn't want the defense to cross-examine these people or ask them logically pertinent questions, so they didn't call them, and they kept direct exam narrower than would otherwise be expected.Often, you get the sense their objections seem almost nervous -- things that seem insignificant -- the way the prosecution seems to act overly defensive about it seems odd.Perhaps the dogs led them to the quarry.http://imgur.com/a/mznGsAbove is a look at the location of the GPS coordinates given in Exhibit 402 of where pelvic bones (sacrum and innominate fragments) were found in the quarry and later examined by forensic anthropologists Leslie Eisenberg AND Dr. Kenneth Bennett (ilium bone is innominate).The 2005 Aerial Image Layer is selected so the imagery reflects the area.The red outlines parcels owned by Manitowoc County (seen on side and bottom) and run by the County Highway Department, which has since rented the land to store wind tower parts as evidenced in current aerial imagery.The small blue dots represent the 44N 15' 51" and 87W 41' 51" GPS coordinates (as seen in the top right corner showing the Lat/Long coordinates), the location of the "quarry" pile per Exhibit 402.The ilium bone was from the quarry, per page 3 of Criminal Complaint:http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Criminal-Complaint.pdfIt is the only bone fragments with pelvic features. The iliac crest part of the ilium bone are under Evidence Tag 8675, which are associated to the "quarry burn pile" in the CASO Evidence Log. It is interesting that they exhibit cut marks just as the bones that came from the Janda burn barrel exhibited cut marks, according to Exhibit 401.http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Trial-Exhibit-401-Eisenberg-Pics-of-Cut-Marks-on-Halbach-Remains.pdfI just tried to ctrl+F the CASO report and it doesn't seem finding of tag 8675 is really documented at all. There is reference to something found on a "Michels Materials Quarry." Suspected human foot found on November 10 in quarry south of Avery Road (p. 219). I didn't find any mention of the quarry pelvic bones doing a quick search of "quarry."Yeah I didn't find anything using pelvic, iliac, Radandt or Michels. Also tried debris pile, which is common in the documentation.Tried gravel pit -- they use that as much as quarry. Can't find anything relevant with "gravel" search. The good news is that we're caught up with the CASO report with respect to the pelvic bones from the quarry pile! The bad news is that they're more mysterious than ever.I just can't believe the evidence tag only comes up a handful of times, with no indication of when or where it was found, so then how did Eisenberg or Austin know?● Some of Teresa's bones were found in the gravel pit● Badgerland Aggregates and Manitowoc County own the land● Badgerland is owned by Radandt and Jeff Maples● Jeff maples is also owner of Vinton Construction● Vinton Construction = $200,000,000 state contract bid scam from 1996-2004 on trial in 2005● Doug Haag is the DA's mentor● Doug Haag is also currently the head of the real estate transfers and registry in that part of the state.● Emerging Energies kept getting shut down by the residents of Mishicot in 2004-2005 to develop Wind Turbines around the county (the county of Manitowoc was strongly present and pushing for the wind turbines)● The problem at the time was wind turbines need to be 1000 feet from all property lines, and the gravel pit would be continuous with the Avery propertyThe criminal complaint mentions the ilium, but there isn't anything about a quarry discovery. Deceptive wording in the complaint gives the impression that the ilium was part of the burn pit fragments.http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Criminal-Complaint.pdf#page=3Judge Willis wasn't that interested in a third burn site.THE COURT: Mr. Strang, can you, uh, let me know about how long this line of questioning will go?I don't think they would bury her because cadaver dogs would have found her, so why go through that effort. I think he left her in the back of the RAV4, parked it in the woods between Kuss Road and the deer camp, and spend the night at the deer camp, leaving before dawn.When she was not reported missing the next day, he waited until dark and retrieved the vehicle, having kept her set of keys. He drove it to an area more secluded but still at Radandt's quarry, and burned her in a gravel mound.He placed her body under the chunks of concrete in the gravel mound. Then he doused the body with a super combustible liquid and lite a match. The explosion would have driven the body up against the chunks of concrete, breaking every done in the body. Then he would have been able to break it up into small pieces easily, rather than have to cut through bones.Or a barrel taken from the deer camp could generate the 1600 degree's necessary to reduce the body to bones. Then they moved the barrel containing the bones to Avery's and dumped it in the pit.http://www.sott.net/article/185067-Body-burners-The-forensics-of-fireMy interest in the bones was renewed by that mysterious footage at the end of the flyover video. So if anyone has a source for who discovered the quarry bones...From what I recall from the aerials, the quarry burn site was south and east of the "smoke" seen on the flyover video, but not by some huge distance. If it was about 1000 feet from the hunting camp to Avery's trailer, and the distance from the smoke to the quarry remains area was less than 150 feet.There's no documentation available about who discovered the quarry bones, or when they were discovered, or precisely where.No one knows or at least no one actually admitted during the trial. Defense closing statements even mentions how it's a mystery.I've never felt like I needed details on who discovered the quarry burn site because it is so blatantly clear that it was someone NOT connected to all the crooked framing crew (i.e. a member of the public or other LE), and they all preferred to not draw any attention to it because it so obviously flags how the framing was carried out. It was inconvenient evidence they never wanted connected to the case so I'm sure there is next to no proper record of how the evidence came to be submitted.On November 8 they announced they found bones behind Avery's in the burn pit when the only bone identified that day as being human and female was the ilium bone. The only thing that appears to be an ilium is from the quarry. Eisenberg never finds an ilium. If she would admit the bones in the quarry were human then the defense could tie it in with the ilium and they could say, "Oh, so human bones were AT the QUARRY?"And as far as I know, this ilium has disappeared. No testing was done on it... which is interesting. Supposedly it was taken to Bennett at his home on November 8. If it was in such good shape he could suggest a young adult female, it might have been a good candidate for mtDNA testing (what is done with burnt bones). Most of the others were in too bad of shape to get decent DNA.Ken Bennett: he positively ID the Ilium (pelvis) on November 8, and it was not only human but female. This was the day the bones were found. And because of the positive ID, law enforcement were able to arrest Avery at this point since the bone was found on his property. The only problem is there are no ilium bones noted by Eisenberg in evidence at the burn pit on Steven’s property. The only thing that even resembles an ilium is at the quarry.Dr. Eisenberg also says she identified the gender with facial bone fragments from Avery's burn pit. The reason she couldn’t use the pelvis is because this bone was now recorded in evidence as being at the quarry!Why do you think it was such a big deal during trial that the state insist that Eisenberg doesn’t know if the pelvis like bone/ilium isn’t human? Because it would prove the bones that were positively ID as being female and human (per Dr. Bennett on November 8) were not on Steven Avery’s property but in the quarry!The fact that all the charred human bones indicated they came from the same skeleton and the same burn pile pretty much proves they came from one place, and if you trust the evidence that would be in the quarry where the pelvis/ilium was found!LE needed the bones to be on Avery’s property to get the ball rolling by November 10, before the big scheduled depositions.November 7When: 6:59 a.m. until 7:10 a.m.Circumstances: Radandt's third consecutive day of visiting the secured crime scene. Schetter, third in command at the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, was one of the highest-ranking officials at the scene when Radandt came by. Minutes after the quarry operator left, a large contingent of Manitowoc sheriff's deputies arrived for their shift, including Lenk, Colborn, Detective Dennis Jacobs, Lt. Todd Hermann, and Schetter's predecessor, Mike Bushman, who had recently retired but remained as a part-time reserve deputy.Zellner filing: Radandt "accessed the property from the quarry four times, for some unknown reason, after it had been closed to the public. (Radandt) accessed the property within minutes of Officers Colborn and Lenk on November 5 and twice on November 7 ... Mr. Avery is requesting DNA testing on the burnt material found at the Radandt deer hunting camp west of the Avery Salvage Yard to determine whether there are any items of evidentiary value at the deer camp."When: 9:03 a.m. to 9:53 a.m.Circumstances: Hillegas and Bloedorn, who came from 40 minutes away, spent nearly an hour at the secured scene. That morning, Bushman agreed to lead a four-member evidence search party of fellow Manitowoc sheriff's deputies. Deputy Dave Siders later testified he came across Avery's burn barrel and removed a heavy metal tire rim from inside. Remnants of a Motorola emblem for a cellphone and debris from a camera were identified. Authorities insisted the charred debris was Halbach's camera and cellphone.Zellner filing: "There are conflicting dates (Nov. 5 and Nov. 7) about law enforcement's discovery of the remnants of Ms. Halbach's Motorola Razr cell phone, Palm Pilot and camera in a burn barrel in Mr. Avery's yard. No mention was made at trial about the second Motorola cell phone taken from Ms. Halbach's home on November 3, 2005 ... Mr. Avery is requesting to examine items described as a Motorola Razr phone and box from the victim's dining room ... The inability of the State to produce the Motorola phone located in the victim's residence would demonstrate that it was the phone placed in the burn barrel by law enforcement."When: 11:51 a.m. until 12:29 p.m.Circumstances: Radandt returned to the crime scene for the second time that morning. He came by shortly after Colborn, Lenk and Calumet Sgt. Bill Tyson finished walking through the sprawling salvage yard, apparently to check for vehicles that were overlooked the day before.When: Time unknown until 4:28 p.m.Circumstances: Hillegas and Bloedorn both signed out at 4:28 p.m., but there was no sign-in log for either of them. Their continued presence around Avery Road preceded some of the biggest developments in the investigation. The next morning, November 8, Halbach's license plates were discovered inside a junked Mercury station wagon that had broken windows; and Colborn and Lenk rechecked Avery's bedroom and produced a spare key for Halbach's vehicle. Sheriff's Sgt. Jason Jost found a large vertebrae and another human bone near Avery's burn pile pit.Zellner's filing: Has accused Hillegas of using a false name that day to help authorities search near one of the gravel pits. Zellner furnished a notebook sheet written and signed by the "Ryan Kilgus Group." Zellner also revealed Hillegas "received approximately 22 calls from law enforcement on November 4, 2005 prior to the victim's vehicle being moved onto the property."November 8When: 6:41 p.m. until 7:07 p.m.Circumstances: Hours after Jost noticed the human bones near Avery's burn pit, Hillegas and Bloedorn were back at the crime scene after dark. Logs show they stayed nearly a half-hour.The following day, Avery was arrested. His $36 million wrongful conviction lawsuit against Manitowoc County and ex-sheriff Tom Kocourek imploded.Zellner filing: Points out that most of Halbach's bones and 29 of her teeth were absent from Avery's burn pit — raising doubt about how and where Halbach actually died. Zellner has asked for DNA testing on the human pelvic bones that were recovered that week from one of the adjacent quarries. These were clues that Kratz chose to downplay at Avery's murder trial.November 9-12, 2005After Avery's arrest, Radandt, Hillegas and Bloedorn made no more visits to the secured crime scene, sign-in logs indicate.http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/10/02/crime-scenes-off-limits-except-halbach-case/91112372/DEBRA KAKATSCH,called as a witness herein, having been first dulysworn, was examined and testified as follows:THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please stateyour name and spell your last name for the record.THE WITNESS: My name is Debra Kakatsch,and it's spelled D-e-b-r-a, and the last name isK-a-k-a-t-s-c-h.DIRECT EXAMINATIONBY ATTORNEY STRANG:Q Good afternoon.A Good afternoon.Q How are you employed, Ms. Kakatsch?A I'm employed as the Manitowoc County Coroner.Q How long have you been the Manitowoc CountyCoroner?Q So what -- what does that mean you started?A As coroner?Q Or as chief deputy?A Uh, chief deputy, '91-'92. Coroner started '93.Q Okay. What -- what sort of, um, work backgrounddid you have before becoming the chief deputycoroner?A Um, my background was primarily nursing at that time.I worked in several different areas. I was anobstetrical nurse and delivered babies. Sometimesdoctor always didn't get there. Uh, also worked in anursing home, taught childbirth education. Uh,chemotherapy. Worked in the emergency room. Uh,intensive care area.Q Um, when you first started nursing, what sort ofnursing certification, if any, did you have?A In the beginning --Q Yes.A -- of my nursing career? Uh, I became, um, certifiedin obstetrics in my earlier years.Q And was -- I know there are different types ofnursing and just different certifications. Didyou have any of those initially?A Well, uh, to be a nurse, you need to have a licenseunder the state of Wisconsin. Um, but then I went onto be certified in other areas.Q What was your first license as a nurse?A Licensed Practical Nurse.Q Did you continue your education in the field ofnursing after becoming a licensed practical --practical nurse?A Yes, I went back to school for a registered nurse.Q And did you eventually get the RN?A Yes, I did.Q Or registered nurse?A Yes, I did, 1980.Q Do you have any schooling beyond the registerednurse, uh, status?A Yes, I do.Q What's that?A Um, I went back to school and, uh, I got a Bachelor'sDegree in management. And then I also went back toschool for a paralegal degree. And then I went backto school for, uh, a police science degree. Not afull degree, but at that time I was looking for, um,more classes to help me do my job as a, uh, coronerand also in other fields that I was pursuing lateron. But, uh, it helped me quite a bit in, um, mycoroner work. And -- and by doing that I gotinvolved in teaching some things, too.Q Have you had any spec -- any training specific toyour work as the, uh, coroner?A Yes, I have. Um, I have taken, uh, numerous othertrainings, um, such as, uh, anthropology,autopsy-type, um, courses. I've been in a number ofautopsies, signed permits for a number of those. Um,oh, DNA. I've taken a couple of Dr. Henry Lee'scourses. I don't know if you're familiar with him.Um, Dr. Michael Bodden. I've taken some courses fromDr. --Q These --A -- Bodden.Q These are well-known medical examiners --A Yeah.Q -- from --A Yes.Q -- Connecticut in Dr. Lee's case, um, andPennsylvania in Dr. Bodden's case?A Yes.Q Okay.A Um, and I felt I -- I learned a lot specifically fromgetting training from those particular people. So,um, then I try to keep on that -- keep up on thattraining, uh, every year with whatever comes alongthat best fits the scope of my job to do it better.Q Do you have any certifications, um, connected toyour work as coroner?A Yes, I do. I'm certified as a forensic nurse.Q What does that mean?A Forensic nurse deals more with the -- theinvestigation part of nursing and the medical field,and, uh, to do that I had to submit numerous types ofeducational things that I attended, and, then, uh, Ialso had to take an advanced condensed program andthen write an exam.Q Okay. Uh, and other than forensic nursing, um,have we covered your certifications?A I also got certification as, um, Homeland Security,which deals with, uh, the medical field deathinvestigation, disaster-type situations, deathinvestigations.Q When you say, "Homeland Security", the UnitedStates Department of Homeland Security?A Uh, well, it's through our organization, the AmericanCollege of Forensic Examiners, so --Q All right. Um, in addition to the AmericanCollege of Forensic Examiners, do you belong toany professional associations?A Yes. I belong to the Wisconsin Coroners MedicalExaminers Association, the Forensic NursesAssociation. I used to belong to the HomicideInvestigators Association.Q All right. Now, what -- what is the position ofcoroner, um, in, uh -- in Wisconsin?A In Wisconsin it, uh, revolves around deathinvestigations and it can -- the types of deaths weget involved in are, um, homicides, suicides, trafficaccidents, industrial deaths. Um, sometimes if therewould be a, uh, death in police custody or in jail,or bodies found, remains found, um, drug deaths,emergency room deaths, drug reactions. There's manythings we get involved in that the State requires usto investigate.Q All of them in -- involve, unfortunately, someonedying?A Yes.Q Okay. And how do you -- how do you -- how do youget this job of coroner?Q What -- what's the current term?A The current term is four-year term now. It -- it hadbeen two years.Q Okay. And, uh, when you say "elected" is thata -- a municipal position? A county position? Astate position? What --Q All right. Um, does --Q Now, but -- but if a death happens, let's say, ina hospital or a nursing home, would you beinvolved, typically, in that?A Sometimes we are. It depends. Um, let's say, forexample, a person has a hip fracture and they're inthe nursing home, those we have to accept as a case.If someone's choked, if someone's had a drugreaction, we have to accept those as case as well.Q So how would we -- how would we describe simplyfor the jury what sort of deaths become thecoroner's business and what don't?Q Okay. In other words, if it's -- if -- if it'snatural causes, you might not be involved?A We may still be involved because you may not know thedeath is a natural death until you completed whateveryou need to do to arrive at that determination.Q Okay. But, I guess, if I understand you, youwon't be involved in every natural death if adoctor has attended --A No. No.A Yes.Q What -- what are those?A Um, well, particularly where I get involved, um, withdisposition is unclaimed bodies, bodies that are notidentified. We have to provide indigent burial if wedon't find anybody to claim that body.Q And, um, had you had any -- any prior involvementin the investigation into Teresa Halbach'sdisappearance?A Could you repeat that?Q Had you -- Before you saw this on thetelevision --A Uh-huh.Q Okay. I'm sorry I -- I interrupted.THE COURT: You may be seated.Mr. Gahn?ATTORNEY GAHN: Yes, um, I guess we'reat a loss here. We don't know what is going --happening here.She stated that she does not know what type oftestimony may be needed from her as a defensewitness as she felt she had no relevantinformation.THE COURT: Mr. Strang?I understand I -- I asked some questionsabout her background, but simply by way ofestablishing who she is and why she has the jobof coroner.Um, she will, um, testify, um, to theTHE COURT: Assuming she was walled off,what's the relevance of that for purposes of thistrial?Your Honor, now, Iguess, the Corporation Counsel of ManitowocCounty is involved in the bias in this case.ATTORNEY STRANG: Well, if there's -- ifthere's any 9-0-4-0-3 concern, I guess that wouldum --THE COURT: What -- what would be hercompetence to perform this duty considering theother plain state people that we've heard from?Well, this may be relevant orhave probative value as it relates to a turf war,but I --But the, um -- this witness has nothingto do with the Sheriff's Department.Um, so I would -- I would tender, uh,that as relevant, uh, as well, uh, Your Honor.THE COURT: Well, if we hear some testimonyfrom a defense expert that creates some relevanceI'm not aware of right now,when I think thereal issue, as -- as I understand it, on the biasissue from the defense has been the, uh, bias,specifically, of Officers Lenk and Colborn, and Ithink the Court has, uh, allowed, uh, the defenseto present a great deal of evidence with regardto that issue.ATTORNEY STRANG: I understand theCourt's ruling. I -- I respectfully, uh, suggestthat the bias of any witness called by the Stateis a relevant area of exploration. It's notcollateral to the issue and, specifically, thiswould be --So -- but -- but, again, I -- I -- Irecognize the rulings that the Court has made andthe rulings allowed us on the bias of Mr. Lenkand Mr. Colborn,Um, if -- if --THE COURT: Anything from the State?ATTORNEY GAHN: No, Your Honor.I'm -- I'm only basing my ruling on what I know. Ifyou want to put something on the record as to whatyou, uh, would intend to prove, and if, uh, furtherwitnesses from the -- the defense, uh, believes youshould ask the Court to reconsider its decision, Iwill. I'm making my decision based on what I knownow.THE COURT: Go ahead.Uh, she -- I would --He's no longer there. Ibelieve he's the Fond du Lac County MedicalExaminer today.I further expect that she would testifythatUm, she has notes that document thoseconversations. And I'm just giving the generalgist of them.Actually, who I -- I know has writtenthe Court here on this case recently.And, as a matter of good faith anddoing what she could to discharge her duties, um,So that's, uh -- that's, in a nutshell,or in -- in skeleton form, the, uh, testimony Iexpect that she could offer and that I think isrelevant for these as I explained it.THE COURT: Anything else from the State?ATTORNEY GAHN: No, Your Honor.but I'm not -- I don't trust mymemory anymore. I know the district attorney wasthere. I don't remember if the corporation counselwas involved or not.And, um, I -- I don'tperceive how pulling a Manitowoc County personoff would somehow add to any bias on any partwhen the purpose for making the decision was toavoid the creation of bias.THE COURT: All right. I think weshould, um, bring the jury in and tell themthey're going to be excused for the day and thenwe'll resume tomorrow morning.ATTORNEY STRANG: Very well.THE COURT: Bring the jurors in at thistime.(Jurors in at 4:29 p.m.)THE COURT: You may be seated. Uh, membersof the jury, it's 4:30, so we're going to concludeour proceedings for today. Uh, I will remind you,uh, again, when you go home, don't discuss the casewith anyone, don't discussed it among your --discuss it among yourselves, and be sure not to, uh,expose yourself to any media accounts about thecase. We will see you tomorrow morning, uh, at thenormal time.