RemarK Profile Blog Joined April 2011 United States 452 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-27 09:56:40 #1



Zerg



50 seconds infestation pit



100 seconds to start hive



100 seconds to greater spire



Corruptor morph to BL time = 34 seconds



Rush distance? give or take 30 seconds? (rush distance is relevant because the Zerg will be morphing his brood lords on his half of the map, and brood lords are slow)



Zerg total time to OP: 284 seconds (314 with rush distance factored in)



Protoss



60 seconds to build stargate



60 seconds to build fleet bacon



160 seconds to build mothership (you can fit 5 chronoboosts in, each one takes off 10 seconds of build time) = 110 seconds with constant CB



89 seconds to have vortex



Protoss total time to OP: 319 seconds



Protoss total time to OP without Stargate build time factored in: 259 seconds





What does all this mean? Well, put simply, if you want to have a mothership with energy for a vortex by the time the Zerg has brood lords on the field, you have to either:



1) Match his infestation pit timing with your stargate



or



2) Match his hive timing with your fleet beacon



If you do either of those and don't miss a beat on starting the mothership, chronoing it constantly, etc, then you'll have it out in time and with enough energy for a vortex.



Another thing to look at is when the Zerg starts his hive, that means he will have brood lords on the field in 234 seconds (about 4 minutes). So if you want to hit a timing attack before brood lords, that's your window to be killing him.



This is going to be a really short blog post, but I was wondering how quickly Protoss needs to start teching to Stargate / Fleet Beacon / Mothership in order to have a vortex ready for a Brood lord + infestor push. Here's what I found - the timings I used start from a typical midgame scenario50 seconds infestation pit100 seconds to start hive100 seconds to greater spireCorruptor morph to BL time = 34 secondsRush distance? give or take 30 seconds? (rush distance is relevant because the Zerg will be morphing his brood lords on his half of the map, and brood lords are slow)Zerg total time to OP: 284 seconds (314 with rush distance factored in)60 seconds to build stargate60 seconds to build fleet bacon160 seconds to build mothership (you can fit 5 chronoboosts in, each one takes off 10 seconds of build time) = 110 seconds with constant CB89 seconds to have vortexProtoss total time to OP: 319 secondsProtoss total time to OP without Stargate build time factored in: 259 secondsWhat does all this mean? Well, put simply, if you want to have a mothership with energy for a vortex by the time the Zerg has brood lords on the field, you have to either:1) Match his infestation pit timing with your stargateor2) Match his hive timing with your fleet beaconIf you do either of those and don't miss a beat on starting the mothership, chronoing it constantly, etc, then you'll have it out in time and with enough energy for a vortex.Another thing to look at is when the Zerg starts his hive, that means he will have brood lords on the field in 234 seconds (about 4 minutes). So if you want to hit a timing attack before brood lords, that's your window to be killing him. Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss | www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @remarkiwa

EtherealDeath Profile Blog Joined July 2007 United States 8294 Posts #2 Nice benchmark to have

Cascade Profile Blog Joined March 2006 Australia 5405 Posts #3 This is good information. I think there are a lot more things you can do with this info, apart from the two you present. Some things that comes to my mind as a low diamond zerg:



3) (feign) agression at about the time the corruptors are being built, to force him to use the gas for defensive units, or at least morph the BLs in a defensive position, which will give you more time. Back off as soon as BLs are out, and retreat to vortex.



4) try to snipe infestors as he will be weak. He will not have gas to rebuild infestor and BLs.



5) Attack distant expansion just as BLs are morphing. Specially if you can spot where the corruptors are well in time. He will either have to start chasing you around (dance a bit all over the map until vortex done), or base-trade (build MS on the last base he will get to in a base-race, so you can come back and take out his army when you got vortex).

morlakaix Profile Joined February 2011 United States 708 Posts #4 it really is sad that PvZ has come to this...they even said it on ItG, PvZ has turned into broodlords vs mothership

mazqo Profile Joined September 2010 Finland 364 Posts #5 On June 27 2012 16:12 morlakaix wrote:

it really is sad that PvZ has come to this...they even said it on ItG, PvZ has turned into broodlords vs mothership

Just wait, soon TvZ will turn into broodlord+corruptor+infestor vs mass ravens. Just wait, soon TvZ will turn into broodlord+corruptor+infestor vs mass ravens.

StatikKhaos Profile Joined January 2011 United States 211 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-27 07:49:01 #6 dude, this game is almost perfectly balanced,



people only bitch to vent, so this math isnt even worth that much time, ps the game has fine balance only pro's should complain

edit: i didnt finish what i ment to say Those Bitches

las91 Profile Blog Joined May 2011 United States 2603 Posts #7 On June 27 2012 16:48 StatikKhaos wrote:

dude, this game is almost perfectly balanced,



people only bitch to vent, so this math isnt even worth that much time, ps the game has fine balance only pro's should complain

edit: i didnt finish what i ment to say



Even if he is complaining about balance, he's giving incredibly useful timings for both Z and P players when you are transitioning out of the mid-game and into late-game, which is actually how I see his post.



Thank you for the timings, although I kinda knew the "start the fleet beacon when he starts his hive" thing. Even if he is complaining about balance, he's giving incredibly useful timings for both Z and P players when you are transitioning out of the mid-game and into late-game, which is actually how I see his post.Thank you for the timings, although I kinda knew the "start the fleet beacon when he starts his hive" thing. In Inca we trust

Th1rdEye Profile Blog Joined December 2006 United States 1069 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-27 09:30:41 #8



If you attack before broods come, and you lose your army, you might as well just leave ^^



Sorry for you toss users who play a broken race with a broken design...basically, any time you attack, its all in.. and It sucks for you



Zerg builds are meant to have enough to hold off an all in before broods, with spines infestors and ling/corruptor ^^



Toss's better option is to use warp prism at this point to harass and deny bases and be where the zerg isnt. Also picking off the greater spire, which only good protoss do to me and scout properly. 8-10 zealots cannot be stopped if they attacking the GS before it dies....Ive also lost hives at this point in the game before, which puts you back quite a bit.



Then your whole "timing" thing goes out the window. Telling people to attack before broods come out is an easy way to teach toss players to loseIf you attack before broods come, and you lose your army, you might as well just leave ^^Sorry for you toss users who play a broken race with a broken design...basically, any time you attack, its all in.. and It sucks for youZerg builds are meant to have enough to hold off an all in before broods, with spines infestors and ling/corruptor ^^Toss's better option is to use warp prism at this point to harass and deny bases and be where the zerg isnt. Also picking off the greater spire, which only good protoss do to me and scout properly. 8-10 zealots cannot be stopped if they attacking the GS before it dies....Ive also lost hives at this point in the game before, which puts you back quite a bit.Then your whole "timing" thing goes out the window. from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo

Skyda Profile Joined November 2011 United Kingdom 23 Posts #9 On June 27 2012 16:48 StatikKhaos wrote:

dude, this game is almost perfectly balanced,



people only bitch to vent, so this math isnt even worth that much time, ps the game has fine balance only pro's should complain

edit: i didnt finish what i ment to say



lmao so ignorant lmao so ignorant http://www.fm-esports.org

SeriouR Profile Joined November 2010 Spain 613 Posts #10 Wow, I was really off in my timings here. Thank you very much :D Trance music makes the fairys dance

Cronusd Profile Joined May 2011 Finland 19 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-27 11:14:38 #11 On June 27 2012 18:27 Th1rdEye wrote:

Toss's better option is to use warp prism at this point to harass and deny bases and be where the zerg isnt. Also picking off the greater spire, which only good protoss do to me and scout properly. 8-10 zealots cannot be stopped if they attacking the GS before it dies....Ive also lost hives at this point in the game before, which puts you back quite a bit.





If the zerg is any good he wont let you kill the GS with warp prism. It's incredibly dumb to base you're builds assuming your enemy will make a major mistake. If the zerg is any good he wont let you kill the GS with warp prism. It's incredibly dumb to base you're builds assuming your enemy will make a major mistake.

ErAsc2 Profile Joined May 2012 Sweden 256 Posts #12 I dont think that's a good rule of thumb. I just get my stargate as soon as i feel like my 3rd is secure and the fleet beacon as soon as my stargate finishes. 2 Vortexes are 2x better than 1 Vortex. Swedish GM Protoss http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2336142/1/MilkEA/

TheBamf Profile Joined June 2011 Denmark 366 Posts #13 Simple but important stuff, thanks a lot! IM.Nestea | IM.MvP | MvP.DongRaeGu. | Genius | ST.Parting I SlayerS.MMA

how Profile Blog Joined January 2011 United States 538 Posts #14 Really cool man, good shit to know. http://twitter.com/howsc

RemarK Profile Blog Joined April 2011 United States 452 Posts #15 On June 27 2012 20:37 ErAsc2 wrote:

I dont think that's a good rule of thumb. I just get my stargate as soon as i feel like my 3rd is secure and the fleet beacon as soon as my stargate finishes. 2 Vortexes are 2x better than 1 Vortex.



That sounds like excellent advice / timing to me.



Also, I think there's a little confusion about this blog post - it's not meant to have advice, or tell anyone to do anything. It's just math :p That sounds like excellent advice / timing to me.Also, I think there's a little confusion about this blog post - it's not meant to have advice, or tell anyone to do anything. It's just math :p Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss | www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @remarkiwa