You start the conversation with John Mozeliak, the Cardinals' president of baseball ops, this way: "Two out in the Wild Card all of a sudden. Five behind the Cubs."

Mozeliak said, "Looking more at the two. It's not like you can't find a way to make up five between here and October. But it's hard."

The hard part for Mozeliak in the Summer of 2018 came a month or so ago, when he decided to fire his manager, Mike Matheny. The last time someone other than Tony La Russa or Matheny had managed the Cardinals was Mike Jorgensen in 1995, after Jorgensen had replaced ... wait for it ... Joe Torre.

"That's a long time," Mozeliak said. "But as things continued to go in the wrong direction for us, Bill [DeWitt, the Cardinals' owner] and I realized it was just a question of when [they'd make a change]. We knew we would wait, do things 'the Cardinals way,' wait until the offseason, when it would be a cleaner break. But we knew that if we did wait, and did do it that way, I felt we had no chance this season.

"And I believed we still did have a chance. I wasn't willing to concede anything at that point, even where we were [47-46, 7 1/2 games out of first in the National League Central]. I still felt as if we could win, but that we needed new leadership to give ourselves a chance to do that. So we pulled the cord."

So Matheny was out and Mike Shildt was named interim manager. Maybe Shildt will be a lot more than an interim if the Cardinals continue to play for him the way they have since he got the job. They are now 17-9 under Shildt. The Cards had won eight of their past 10 going into Tuesday. Over those 10 games, the only team with a better record is the Red Sox. The Cardinals were lost, and it looked like a lost season in St. Louis, one of the capitals of the sport. Lately they have been found.

Doesn't mean the Cardinals will catch the Cubs or pass the Brewers. Doesn't mean they will get one of the two NL Wild Cards. But they are in play again, that is what matters in St. Louis. If the Cubs' David Bote doesn't hit a two-strike, two-out grand slam against the Nationals on Sunday night, the Cardinals would have been four behind the Cubs on Tuesday morning. The 26 games since the firing of Matheny are a small sampling, of course. But a lot can change in a month. If you don't think so, ask the Yankees.

"You play a tough game in April or May and you lose it, and you think, 'I hope that one doesn't come back to bite me in September,'" Mozeliak said. "That's always the thinking. But as a season goes along, the tough losses get worse, and a theme starts to play out with your team, positively and negatively. And what you ultimately look to do is run with the positive, and change the negative if you can.

"The problem with the Cardinals is that for two years, we couldn't change the negatives. We couldn't change the narrative that we weren't playing clean baseball, weren't being smart on bases, weren't a sound defensive club. There were too many times when we were giving up four outs an inning, or five. And that is so tough from which to recover. I felt as if we had spent too long trying to push a rock up the hill, but never making it up the hill."

Mozeliak paused and said, "For the last month, we've been able to change the narrative."

Mozeliak then talked about the superb season Matt Carpenter has had since getting off to an almost shockingly slow start. He talked about his catcher, Yadier Molina , and how he has "run the dashboard" with all of the Cardinals' young pitchers, in a season when Carlos Martinez got hurt (and will pitch out of the bullpen for the rest of the way), and Michael Wacha and Alex Reyes . Mozeliak talked about how Miles Mikolas (12-3, 2.85 ERA) has become the star, rock and ace of the Cards' rotation, and about the 22-year old kid, Jack Flaherty . He talked about Marcell Ozuna , St. Louis' big addition in the offseason, starting to come on; Paul DeJong , the Redbirds' second-year shortstop, being healthy and hitting home runs again after missing more than a month; Jedd Gyorko feeling more sure of his status as the regular third baseman.

"You always have to look at the product you're putting on the field," Mozeliak said. "And lately our product hasn't just entertained our fans. It seems to have energized them."

Things will not be easy for the Cardinals the rest of the way, as they try to make up those five games on the Cubs and two in the NL Wild Card race. They are playing the Nationals on Tuesday, have the Brewers on the horizon, then go west to play the Dodgers and Rockies. Mozeliak knows all the reasons why they dug the hole for themselves they did over nearly the first 100 games. Now he watches, the way Cards fans, as good and loyal as they are, as the team tries to climb out of it and make a run in the 43 games they have left.

"Let's face it," Mozeliak said, "when you look at our league, the situation is murky at best."

A month ago, things were crystal clear for Mozeliak's team. It wasn't very good. Now the Cardinals have given their fans an entertaining, energizing month. If they do it for another month, just think how much murkier they can make things in the NL. Sometimes firing a manager does nothing. But sometimes it does a lot.