[train station announcement] katrin bennhold See, our train — clare toeniskoetter I know, but do we know what platform we’re on?

lynsea garrison

So at this point, we’re on the train platform in Warsaw. We’ve been traveling together for a few weeks now.

katrin bennhold

Yeah.

clare toeniskoetter Does your ticket say, though?

katrin bennhold

And we’ve been going from country to country to sort of check what people are thinking ahead of these European elections, which are now upon us. So we pack up —

clare toeniskoetter Berlin! katrin bennhold Berlin!

katrin bennhold

— and head to the train station in Poland —

clare toeniskoetter [SPEAKING POLISH]

katrin bennhold

— and get on the train back to Berlin.

katrin bennhold Is this it? clare toeniskoetter Yeah. [train passes] [music]

katrin bennhold

You know, we started this trip thinking that these liberal values that are so fundamental to the founding of the European Union coming out of World War II, that they’re now being rejected by all these movements across Europe as no longer relevant to people’s lives, or even as threats to their national identities, as impositions. Speaking with Danuta, the Polish Law and Justice politician, I think I understood a little bit better what this was about and what kind of Europe the populists wanted. They don’t want to throw away democracy. They want to throw away liberalism. They want a democracy that responds to them, that answers to them, that represents the will of the majority. And this is the battle they’re kind of bringing to the E.U. Parliament. So these elections, the second biggest democratic process in the world, this is about how many of these people with a different vision of Europe get into the Parliament.

katrin bennhold This is Germany? clare toeniskoetter This is Germany.

katrin bennhold

And so we’re crossing the border back into Germany, this country at the heart of a liberal Europe, where the story began, but where nationalism has also gained traction, and where now, there is this far-right party, the AfD. We wanted to see to what extent this other view of Europe, that rejection of liberalism, had taken hold in Germany, too.

[music]

katrin bennhold

From The New York Times, I’m Katrin Bennhold. This is “The Daily.” Today: Back to Germany. It’s Friday, June 14.

clare toeniskoetter Oh, my gosh. That was amazing. lynsea garrison Hello. Hi. speaker Hello.

katrin bennhold

So for the last three days, voters across the European Union have been going to the polls. And on this last day, we drive something like 45 minutes to the outskirts of Berlin to basically spend the election night with the AfD, Germany’s far-right party. So we get out of the car —

[crowd noise]

katrin bennhold

— and we’ll just hit by this wall of sound.

[chanting]

katrin bennhold

There’s maybe two dozen protesters there. They have banners. They have megaphones. They’re chanting. They’re shouting. There’s police trying to sort of control them. It’s not a big crowd, but it’s a very noisy crowd.

speaker [SHOUTING]

katrin bennhold

They’re basically equating the AfD to Nazis.

[shouting, whistling]

katrin bennhold

So we’re trying to find the entrance to this party. And we’re making our way around the building. And there’s the sort of security control at the back. We show our IDs, walk past a parking lot —

clare toeniskoetter And what is this place? katrin bennhold So it’s actually a dance school. They’ve rented out a dance school because there was — they were going to have their election party at a restaurant, and the restaurant owner received so many threats from, like, anti-AfD people that they had to move the location. It was all, like, hush, hush. And we only found out yesterday. But on any other day, you can learn how to dance tango here.

katrin bennhold

— and finally get to this dance school, which is tonight’s venue for the AfD’s party.

speaker [SPEAKING GERMAN] katrin bennhold Danke. lynsea garrison Thank you.

katrin bennhold

So this isn’t like a sort of U.S.-style raging election party with balloons and music. This is fairly kind of German.

katrin bennhold Only men, look at that, or mainly.

katrin bennhold

There’s a lot of men in suits drinking beer, eating pretzels, as people kind of wait for the first real results of the evening at 11:00 p.m.

jörg meuthen In English? katrin bennhold You speak brilliant. jörg meuthen Ha ha, O.K., O.K.

katrin bennhold

And then there’s Jörg Meuthen.

jörg meuthen Well, I’m Jörg Meuthen. I’m the chair of the AfD of Germany. And —

katrin bennhold

So Jörg is the main candidate of the AfD running in these elections. He’s already in the E.U. Parliament. But he’s running for re-election.

jörg meuthen I’m in European Parliament.

katrin bennhold

He was kind of the star of the evening. And I want to ask him, what does he make of the state of German democracy? And what does he make of this idea that we heard in Poland, that Germany is less democratic because it adheres to these liberal values?

katrin bennhold Do you think German democracy today is healthy?

katrin bennhold

So I asked him —

jörg meuthen No, it’s not. It’s not at all.

katrin bennhold

— is democracy working in Germany?

jörg meuthen For example, there are so many people fighting against us. They say we are Nazis. We are racists. We are anti-Semitic and all these things. It’s completely, really completely wrong.

katrin bennhold

And Jörg said no, democracy is not working.

jörg meuthen And they do not accept, for example, that we have our election party here today. They tried to get us out from here by using violence.

katrin bennhold

He said, look, look where we’re at. We’re in this dance hall on the outskirts of Berlin because we were threatened in this other place.

jörg meuthen And they fight against us by burning down our cars, by fighting with a physical kind of violence against persons. And that’s not a healthy kind of democracy. I need bodyguards, a large number of bodyguards. lynsea garrison Is that your bodyguard behind you? jörg meuthen For example. clare toeniskoetter And another one there, no? jörg meuthen Some of them are here. And it’s necessary, because if I go out, it’s dangerous for me. Why? Why? I just have an opinion. And I can’t accept that others do not accept my opinion.

katrin bennhold

And he said, look, we can’t even say what we think.

jörg meuthen You know, I would always fight for the left side to have the right to say what they want to do, because that’s democracy, and that’s freedom. But from the left side, they do not accept us.

katrin bennhold

He says that the tolerance that liberals pride themselves on ends with opinions like his, opinions that they don’t like.

speaker It’s difficult to have a democracy where free speech is getting more difficult every day.

katrin bennhold

This frustration is voiced a lot here.

speaker In Germany, you say, I’m from the AfD and you don’t get an — Wohnung? katrin bennhold You don’t get an apartment? speaker 1 Yeah, you can’t rent an apartment if you say this. In Hamburg today, if you want to be a teacher, you must make in signature that I don’t in the AfD. speaker 2 You’re not a member of the AfD. speaker 1 That’s not free. speaker 3 You know, whether or not you agree with the policy of the government or not, or you oppose it completely, in a democracy, it should not be a problem to address those problems in public. And you don’t have to be afraid of losing your job, you know, getting attacked or something. speaker 1 Especially in Berlin, a lot of people, older people like me, that they came from East Germany, feels today like coming home. It’s the same system. It’s the same pressure. At work, you look over your shoulder what you’re saying. And this is new. katrin bennhold So you’re saying this is — this reminds you of Communism? speaker Absolutely. It’s the same pressure. It’s smarter, and it’s in color. But it’s the same shit like in the Communism.

katrin bennhold

And this isn’t an entirely wild idea, in the sense that Germany, because of its history, again, has some special circumstances. I mean, in Germany, hate speech laws are extremely strict to the point where, to an American, this may almost seem like censorship. You can’t, for example, show a swastika in public. That’s a crime. So freedom of speech is more curtailed in Germany because of hate speech laws than it is in a lot of other democracies. So they see themselves as unfairly targeted.

lynsea garrison

So what is it that they want to say that they feel like they can’t?

katrin bennhold And so what is it that you would like to say at work and you feel your colleagues don’t let you say? speaker I want to — I want to talk what I feel.

katrin bennhold

We asked this several times. And people sort of talk around it.

speaker Safety, education, border security.

katrin bennhold

And one thing that came up a lot is their views on Islam.

speaker If you have a certain opinion about immigrants that come here from all different countries, if you say, well, I believe they do not have the legal status to stay here, you are classified as a right-wing person.

katrin bennhold

There’s this sort of sense that if you express, for example, your dislike of immigration or of Islam, that you run the risk of being called a Nazi. And they’re saying, it’s O.K. for us to be proud to be German. It’s O.K. for us to want to celebrate our culture. It’s O.K. to be opposed to immigration. That doesn’t make us Nazis. They kind of want what Danuta, that Polish Law and Justice politician from the nationalist party in Poland, told us about. They want the majority to basically get the last word.

clare toeniskoetter Her reason was — speaker But it will be more democratic when we have an AfD government, because we want the people to decide certain things. So —

katrin bennhold

They argue that the rise of populism across Europe, far from being a threat to democracy, is actually a sign of a healthy, vibrant one. But when you give all the power to the majority, you also take protections away from minorities. And so I’m wondering, at what point is this a problem?

katrin bennhold What if the people then vote in favor of the death penalty?

katrin bennhold

One issue that, to me, as a German and as a European, felt like a good pressure test is the death penalty. Across the political spectrum, including the AfD, everybody here in Germany is against the death penalty, which has been illegal in democratic Germany since World War II and the Nazi era.

katrin bennhold Then you think, well, if the majority of the people say we want the death penalty back, do you think that actually maybe the government needs to bring —

katrin bennhold

When I ask —

katrin bennhold — the death penalty back? speaker That’s not possible in Germany, I think.

katrin bennhold

— they would just say, this would never happen.

speaker Oh, that will never happen. clare toeniskoetter But if it did —

katrin bennhold

But I said, what if it did?

katrin bennhold Should it be? I mean, is that what you’re saying, a referendum should — if the people say something, it should happen? speaker I hope the education and [GERMAN] — katrin bennhold Memory or the experience. speaker — are on a level today that this, like your [GERMAN], this example are not possible. katrin bennhold O.K. speaker 1 I hope. speaker 2 We are working to avoid.

katrin bennhold

Basically, they were saying, we trust that our people wouldn’t do that. Our people know better. Our people can handle direct democracy. They wouldn’t vote for that kind of thing. And I kept asking, what if they did? And after many, many rounds of this, one agreed.

speaker Yes, of course. That’s democracy.

katrin bennhold

Yes, then we’d have to do it.

speaker That’s just a kind of basic democracy. katrin bennhold And if the German people vote in a referendum, we don’t want any more Muslims — because I meet people, especially in East Germany and Saxony, who say, we just don’t want any more Muslims. If the people say that they don’t want any more Muslims, is that what democracy dictates, that, actually, it stop? speaker Yeah, that’s it. katrin bennhold This sort of raises inevitably the question in Germany — this country with our history, right? We once targeted a group, a religious group, in our past. speaker Yeah? katrin bennhold And the narrative was similar. They’re not compatible. They want to destroy us from the inside, and all of this. So what’s different? speaker 1 We Germans have learned a lot from the thing with World War II, the Shoah, Holocaust, you know? And the members from this party have learned that no man in history has damaged this country so much like Adolf Hitler. They want conservative rights, views. They want law and order, I think. But nothing with Nazi. speaker 2 Nothing to do with it.

katrin bennhold

Again and again, as we make our way through this election party, and we talk to people, I kept bringing up the fact that Hitler himself was elected. He’s a product of a democratic process. And this one young guy said something. He said something that we’ve been hearing from young people across Europe on this trip. But it’s especially meaningful to hear it in Germany.

speaker We do have a certain history. But we are not the same people as at that time.

katrin bennhold

He said that we should be able to leave the past behind.

speaker We shouldn’t be limited to a history that is more than 80 years old. I mean, take me as an example. I have not been alive at that time. My parents have not been living in that country you are talking of. Why should I be forced to say or to think something people want me to think? katrin bennhold Do you think — speaker I live — I live in the Germany of now and here. [crowd noise]

[music]

clare toeniskoetter Are they firm results? Or they’re still exit polls?

katrin bennhold

And then, after hanging out at this party for a few hours, it’s 11:00 p.m., and the election results are coming in from all across Europe — when we come back.

[crowd noise] clare toeniskoetter We’ve just had these TVs in the background all night. And we’ve seen Salvini. We’ve seen the Yellow Vests. We’ve seen — just like our whole trip, it’s just been on TV in the background almost all night. [tv reporter speaking german]

katrin bennhold

So everyone at this AfD election party is kind of watching this big projector on the wall —

[tv reporter speaking german]

katrin bennhold

— that has live results streaming in.

clare toeniskoetter This is the results? katrin bennhold This is Italy. This is Italy.

katrin bennhold

And so eyes are glued on the screen, and we’re seeing the first results come in. And it’s very clear —

clare toeniskoetter The Democrats lost 20 points? katrin bennhold Yes.

katrin bennhold

— that the nationalists have done well in a number of countries.

katrin bennhold It sounds like Marine Le Pen has been — just been declared — oh, wow, look, 24 percent.

katrin bennhold

In France, Marine Le Pen’s party overtook Emmanuel Macron’s. In Italy —

clare toeniskoetter Here comes the League. katrin bennhold There’s the — oh, my —

katrin bennhold

The big winner was Salvini’s party.

katrin bennhold There you go. The AfD, the German populists, are cheering the Italian populists.

katrin bennhold

And in Poland, it was Law and Justice that did the best.

katrin bennhold This is now Germany.

katrin bennhold

But when we get to Germany, it’s not looking so good for the AfD.

katrin bennhold AfD, 10.8 — 11 percent, so it hasn’t budged much.

katrin bennhold

They get 11 percent, which is a modest increase from where they were at at the last European election. But it’s less than even what they got in the last national election. And their rival party, the Greens, this center-left, pro-liberal, pro-refugee party that’s essentially an anti-AfD party, the Greens get almost twice the vote that the AfD gets. And the mood in the room is subdued.

katrin bennhold What do you make of tonight’s results? Are you happy? jörg meuthen Well, yes, yes. All in all, I’m happy. You always can have in mind more, more, more. But it’s a fine result. speaker 11 percent is a good result and is a quite good reason to be happy and to have a good beer. [LAUGHS]

lynsea garrison

And overall, what’s kind of the major headline of the night?

katrin bennhold

So it’s a really mixed picture. One interpretation is to say that this sort of nationalist, populist wave that had been expected by some and predicted in the European Parliament hasn’t materialized. You know, we’ve seen an increase from 20 to about 24 percent of the seats now held by nationalists. That’s enough to make a lot of noise, maybe to disrupt proceedings to a certain degree. But you still have, like, three-quarters of this body that is firmly on the pro-European, pro-liberal democracy side. The other interpretation is to say, if you had told me 10 years ago that there would be a far-right party in the German Parliament, and that this far-right party would get 11 percent in a European election, and if you told me five years ago that Salvini’s League, which got 6 percent at the time, would now be on 34 percent, I’d have been shocked. These parties, these movements, are now firmly entrenched everywhere in the E.U., including in Germany.

clare toeniskoetter So what are you doing? katrin bennhold Just checking the results of our friend Susanna Ceccardi, the mayor.

katrin bennhold

So now we just kind of want to check in with some of the people we’d met along the way to see what those results mean for them and for their countries.

[phone ringing] susanna ceccardi Hello. katrin bennhold Ciao, Susanna. It’s Katrin from The New York Times. susanna ceccardi Ciao.

katrin bennhold

So Susanna, whom we’d met in Italy, the candidate for Salvini’s Lega party —

katrin bennhold So what happened? Did you win? susanna ceccardi Yes, I won. katrin bennhold Wow.

katrin bennhold

— she won her seat.

katrin bennhold So you’re going to the European Parliament. susanna ceccardi Yes, I am ready to go. katrin bennhold So what’s next? Salvini for prime minister?

katrin bennhold

So this means that Matteo Salvini, who currently is interior minister, could conceivably force a new election, in which case, looking at these results, his party, the League party, would probably win. And then Salvini —

susanna ceccardi Salvini, yes.

katrin bennhold

— would become the prime minister.

susanna ceccardi [LAUGHS] I hope. katrin bennhold You hope so. Well, do you think Salvini’s vision for Europe is winning? susanna ceccardi Yes. [phone ringing]

katrin bennhold

Then finally, we call Magdalena —

magdalena adamowicz Hello. Hello.

katrin bennhold

— the candidate who we met in Poland and who has been running against the nationalist government there.

katrin bennhold Of course. So did you win? magdalena adamowicz Yes, yes, I win. katrin bennhold Congratulations. magdalena adamowicz And I have the best — the best result in our region. katrin bennhold That is a huge vote of confidence. Wow. magdalena adamowicz Actually, I am very sad after this election, you know? Because —

katrin bennhold

But she was very sad about the fact that the opposition overall had done poorly and that the government had done very, very well.

magdalena adamowicz Before, we really believed that we win this election. Then it would be this anniversary —

katrin bennhold

And she said that she was worried that liberal democracy was losing.

magdalena adamowicz But liberal democracy is losing with the populist movement now. I see now people are losing their hope.

[music]

katrin bennhold Well, good luck, Magdalena. Good luck. And thank you for giving us so much time.

katrin bennhold

So by the time, we get off the phone, the party is totally over.

clare toeniskoetter Should we take a cab with you, and then we’ll take a cab the rest of the way? katrin bennhold You just keep going.

katrin bennhold

And the trip and the elections are over.

katrin bennhold Get some sleep. clare toeniskoetter Good night. lynsea garrison You too. katrin bennhold Good night. Bye. clare toeniskoetter Tschüss! [car door shuts]

katrin bennhold

We’ll be right back.

lynsea garrison

So when we set out on this journey, we had all these questions about what would be the future of Europe. Would the European Union survive? And now that we’ve come back from our journey and seen these election results, do you feel like you have the answers to those questions now?

katrin bennhold

I guess one of my biggest takeaways is that I don’t think we have a Europe problem, I think we have a democracy problem. For a lot of people we met, liberal democracy is just not delivering anymore. These values that the E.U. was founded on, they’re just not making sense anymore in a lot of people’s lives. You know, the electrician in France who has seen his salary stagnate and who’s kind of humiliated to tell his own children in the middle of the month that there won’t be enough money, or the Italian who doesn’t feel at home anymore in their own small town after migrants moved in, or the Polish person who feels that their Catholic values are being sort of fundamentally threatened, each of these people is rejecting the tenets of liberal democracy — capitalism, globalization, the protection of minorities — because in a way, each of these tenets feels like a rejection of them. And I see that in my own country, here in Germany. You know, the AfD is much more popular in the former Communist East than it is in the West. And there’s a reason for that. East Germany had a very different experience of liberal democracy. I grew up in western Germany. We got liberal democracy after World War II. My story of liberal democracy is the post-war economic miracle. It’s a good time. It’s a happy time. Things get better. In the East, they got liberal democracy after Communism fell and Germany was reunited. This is the 1990s. And it was followed by this very traumatic decade. You know, factories closed. There was mass unemployment. Young people left in droves and Westerners came in to run everything — political parties, universities, businesses. So East Germans who had just beaten Communism in this incredible, peaceful revolution, they ended up basically being told what to do by the West. And so when the AfD says liberalism has failed, you can sort of understand why East Germans agree with them. This is kind of what I’ve learned, that the rejection of liberalism often feels like a story that is born in disappointment, and in humiliation, and a feeling of being left behind, and of being ignored. So in a way, we have this microcosm in Germany of what Europe looks like overall. The defenders of liberal democracy are going to have to really find ways to respond to these conservative needs. They’re going to have to find a way to paint a vision of the future that speaks to people and that pays attention to people.

lynsea garrison

Mm-hmm.

katrin bennhold

You know, and we’re seeing movement. I mean, look at the success of the Greens in Germany and in some other countries. I mean, something is definitely stirring. But the mainstream centrist parties, they haven’t found that language of the future yet. So right now, I feel like there’s this large political space that’s up for grabs in Europe. And there’s this battle going on on who’s going to take that space?

lynsea garrison

Mm-hmm.

katrin bennhold

Liberal democracy is not going to win that battle if it doesn’t change, if liberals don’t take a very hard look at themselves. Because look, if the system were working for ordinary people, would we see populists rising all over the place? And if liberal democracy is not working as it is right now, can you have the European Union without it? And what would take its place? And that’s kind of — that’s kind of the moment Europe is in.

lynsea garrison In that case, should we ask the questions? uwe dziuballa Should we sit here? lynsea garrison O.K., yeah, perfect.

katrin bennhold

I keep thinking of the story that this Jewish restaurant owner in Chemnitz told us, the man whose restaurant was vandalized during the far-right protests that we discussed.

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

And I keep thinking about this thing he said.

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

He said, democracy isn’t permanent.

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

Nobody ever said it was. He was born in the G.D.R., in eastern Germany.

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

Communist Germany.

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

He lived in Yugoslavia. And then he got this degree in the Soviet Union.

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

And now, none of those countries or those systems exist anymore. They aren’t on any map. They failed. He said, how can we be so sure that democracy will survive?

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN]

katrin bennhold

How can we be so sure that democracy won’t fail too?

uwe dziuballa [SPEAKING GERMAN] lynsea garrison Thank you. clare toeniskoetter Thank you so much. uwe dziuballa Bye, bye. lynsea garrison Bye.

lynsea garrison

Thank you, Katrin.

katrin bennhold

Thank you, guys. O.K., guys.

clare toeniskoetter

That’s a wrap.

lynsea garrison

That’s a wrap.

katrin bennhold

Time to get a drink.

clare toeniskoetter

And some sleep.

katrin bennhold

And some sleep. O.K., when do we do the next one?

[music]

clare toeniskoetter

“The Daily” is made by Theo Balcomb, Andy Mills, Lisa Tobin, Rachel Quester, Annie Brown, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Larissa Anderson, Wendy Dorr, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Alexandra Leigh Young, Jonathan Wolfe, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Plueg, Adizah Eghan, Kelly Prime, Julia Longoria, Sindhu Gnanasambandan, Jazmín Aguilera, Lynsea Garrison —

lynsea garrison

And Clare Toeniskoetter. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks goes to Sam Dolnick, Mikayla Bouchard, Stella Tan, Julia Simon, and, this week, to Jim Yardley, Kirk Kraeutler, Chris Schuetze, Andrew Testa, Jason Horowitz, Gaia Pianigiani, Elisabetta Povoledo, Hannah Testa, Tessa Wiechmann, Marc Santora, Joanna Berendt, Grazyna Jaskiewicz, Constant Meheut and Anna Bialis.

katrin bennhold

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Katrin Bennhold.

lynsea garrison

I’m Lynsea Garrison.

clare toeniskoetter

I’m Clare Toeniskoetter.

katrin bennhold

Michael Barbaro will be back on Monday.

clare toeniskoetter