Isis militant known as ‘Jihadi John’ gave interview to advocacy group Cage in 2009 in which he claimed that MI5 said they would keep ‘a close eye’ on him

Mohammed Emwazi, the west London man unmasked as the Islamic State’s knife-wielding killer, said he was told by MI5 five years ago that they would keep a “close eye” on him despite his denials that he was involved in extremist militancy.

Transcripts given to the Guardian of Emwazi’s first interview with Cage, the advocacy group that works with communities affected by the war on terror, show a man recounting that he told an MI5 officer that the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the twin towers in New York and the London underground bomb attacks in 2005 were acts of extremism and that he wanted to be able to “make those lives [of the dead] come back”.

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The MI5 handler, “Nick”, was unimpressed. Emwazi said that the agent looked at him and said: “I still believe you are going to Somalia to train.” Emwazi said the agent “threatened him”, saying: “We are going to keep a close eye on you, Mohammed, and we already have been … We are going to keep a close eye on you.”

The interview was recorded in the summer of 2009 by Cage; the Guardian cannot verify whether the account given by Emwazi is correct.

In taped interviews, which the Guardian has heard, he told Asim Qureshi, Cage’s research director, of his conversation with the MI5 agent in an interview after he had been rendered from Tanzania to Holland in 2009. Emwazi’s London accent is apparent but bereft of the mocking tone of “Jihadi John”, the nickname of the masked jihadi who has been filmed killing at least seven US, UK and other nationals.

Emwazi said he was asked about his views on the coordinated suicide bombings in London, which claimed 52 lives, and the planes sent by Osama bin Laden into the World Trade Center in 2001. Emwazi replied: “Innocent people have ... died. What do you think? I think this is extremism … I told him, ‘This is a wrong thing. It was wrong. What do you want me to say? If I had the opportunity, would I make those lives come back? I would make those lives come back.’”

In another exchange, Emwazi is asked about the war in Afghanistan and here he said he watched the news and saw “innocent people getting killed”. The security services also appeared interested in Emwazi’s views “of the Jews”.

“I told him … they’re a religion ... everyone has got his right to his own beliefs ... [he] wants to know about my background ... about my creed … Islam. I told him we don’t force anyone to come into religion you know, everyone has got their own right.”

The tape does appear to confirm that the authorities believed Emwazi was inexorably moving towards radicalisation before he was picked up. MI5 had him on their radar for trying to travel to Somalia in 2009, where the agency said he intended to rendezvous with al-Shabaab.

Cage said it had released details of the recorded conversation because it wanted to provide more evidence to back up their claim that Emwazi was not a militant before the security services’ had “harassed and intimidated” the Londoner. The organisation has been attacked for its support of radical Muslims, some of whom have been incarcerated on terrorism charges. Cage claimed he had been a “kind and gentle” young man before this episode.

Emails and other documents that emerged last Thursday also showed that security services had been tracking Emwazi since 2009, starting when he was refused entry to Tanzania, until the middle of 2013, when they informed his family that he had crossed over to Syria. During that period, Emwazi complained on occasion that he had been harassed by MI5.



He got to Kuwait finally in 2013 but was detained and sent back to Britain. He did eventually succeed in escaping Britain and disappeared into the chaos enveloping Syria. “He was cold,” one Islamic State defector told the BBC. “He didn’t talk much. He wouldn’t join us in prayer.” The Kuwaiti-born Briton eventually appeared on the world stage as the murderous public face of Isis in August 2014

The Emwazi on tape is closer to the one described as a model employee, “calm and decent” and “very good with people”, his former boss has said. The unnamed Kuwaiti IT firm, which hired Mohammed Emwazi during a stint in the Gulf before eventually fleeing London for Syria in 2013, described him as “the best employee we ever had”.

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The manager told the Guardian: “He was very good with people. Calm and decent. He came to our door and gave us his CV.”

The family denied reports on Monday that Emwazi’s mother Ghaneyah recognised her son’s voice when viewing the Isis video depicting James Foley’s beheading last August, and neglected to inform the authorities. When reached by phone in Kuwait, Emwazi’s father Jasem said that reports attributed to Kuwaiti government officials were untrue, adding that the information was an outright “lie, lie, lie”. Emwazi’s immediate family, including his parents and eldest brother, Omar, were on Sunday taken in for routine questioning by Kuwaiti authorities.

Transcript extracts from Emwazi’s interview with Cage

“While we were interviewing after ... right at the end, he [Nick, the MI5 agent] said: I would like to ask you some serious questions now, and while I’m packing my pack ... This is while I’m packing some of my stuff ... I said to him, ‘Yeah, go on, ask it.’ He said, ‘No, no, I’d like to sit face to face and ask you these questions. I said, ‘Wow, these must be some serious questions. Now let’s get down to it.’

“I left the stuff, I come back, sat down, looked at him ... And then he looked at me … he said, ‘Mohammed, what do you think of 7/7?’ I said, ‘Innocent people have been … have died. What do you think? I think this is extremism. He said: ‘OK, what do you think of the war in Afghanistan?’ I said: ‘What do I think? We see the news and innocent people are getting killed.’



“He started telling me, ‘What do you think of 9/11?’ I told him: ‘This is a wrong thing. What happened was wrong. What do you want me to say? If I had the opportunity for those lives to come back then I would make those lives come back. I don’t think ... I think what happened is wrong.’

“Then he is asking me: ‘What do you think of the Jews, just like ... ’ I told him, ‘They’re a religion, everyone has got his right to his own beliefs. I can’t ... I don’t force no one.’ So he just tries ... he wants to know about my background ... about my, about, about my creed ... Islam. I told him, ‘This is how Islam is’ ... I told him we don’t force anyone to come into religion you know, everyone has got their own right.



“And I don’t believe … I told him anything that has been happening is extremely ... anything like bombs or whatever is all from extremists. And then, so after all of this he come back and he looked at me and said: ‘I still believe you are going to Somalia to train.’

“I said: ‘After what I just told you ... After that I told you what’s happening is extremism this and that and you are still suggesting I am an extremist.’



“He just started going on on, forcing ... trying to put words into my mouth and saying: ‘No, you are doing this, this, this and we are going to keep a close eye on you, Mohammed, and we already have been ... We are going to keep a close eye on you ... ’ threatening, you know, and just went out.”