Thinkaman said: Aunt Jemima .



I didn't realize Upper Cutter was (f5) invincible. That's actually pretty nice, more of a recovery improvement than I thought.



I don't understand the focus you gave on using FH Hammer Bash to gain enough height to survive a (failed) Meteor Stone. You can do the same thing with a single DJ, which is much faster. It's not like Kirby needs to preserve his DJs in that situation.



Meteor Stone is nice, but I don't ultimately see it as a huge improvement. It's a lot of trouble, harder to land, and tbqh normal Stone has crazy KO power anyway--enough to KO most off-stage opponents. I'd probably use Burying Stone in most matchups, since it's just so much more useable.



What I suspect the biggest difference of opinion is, is the value of Kirby's neutral-b options. They seem pretty good--frankly strictly superior, but not a huge upgrade? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on these options specifically. I just did some looking to Kirby's customs in more detail and have some questions for @ I didn't realize Upper Cutter was (f5) invincible. That's actually pretty nice, more of a recovery improvement than I thought.I don't understand the focus you gave on using FH Hammer Bash to gain enough height to survive a (failed) Meteor Stone. You can do the same thing with a single DJ, which is much faster. It's not like Kirby needs to preserve his DJs in that situation.Meteor Stone is nice, but I don't ultimately see it as a huge improvement. It's a lot of trouble, harder to land, and tbqh normal Stone has crazy KO power anyway--enough to KO most off-stage opponents. I'd probably use Burying Stone in most matchups, since it's just so much more useable.What I suspect the biggest difference of opinion is, is the value of Kirby's neutral-b options. They seem pretty good--frankly strictly superior, but not a huge upgrade? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on these options specifically. Click to expand...

Spoiler



Wave Cutter: When landing, Kirby creates a shockwave, sending rocks flying upwards. This is basically Final Cutter, but the blade no longer has a hitbox, while the shockwave now goes further and does a bit more damage. This is NOT recommended - this move gets rid of the blade hitbox which somewhat covers Kirby as he recovers in place for one of the worst projectiles in the game. I haven't tested extensively with this move, but I believe it has less height than Final Cutter, too.







Hammer Bash: Kirby swings his hammer forwards in an arch, which sends opponents skyward on contact. He cannot charge this move. This is pretty similar to Kirby's Hammer from Brawl, although this one has stronger killing power and has some odd momentum properties. This is RECOMMENDED. (check further down for reasons)







Grounding Stone: Kirby takes longer to transform into the Stone, but grounded enemies are buried on contact. This move has little endlag while having quite a bit of transformation time, which makes it safer in some ways, and less safe in others. When hitting aerial opponents, this move does a lot less knockback than default Stone. When hitting grounded opponents, however, it buries them and allows Kirby to punish in whatever way he'd like. This Stone is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)







ice Breath: Kirby breathes cold air to freeze nearby opponents, but loses the Copy Abilities. This move has the same start-up as default Inhale with less endlag, making in a little bit safer to use against opponents. Obviously, this isn't a command grab like Inhale is, so it can be shielded. This Inhale is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)







Upper Cutter: Stronger than his normal blade, doesn't hit anything on the way down. This move goes significantly further than Final Cutter does, does more damage, and has more knockback, for the trade-off of losing the downwards hit that gives Kirby atrocious endlag. It also snaps to ledges, unlike the other two Final Cutter customs. This Final Cutter is RECOMMENDED. (check further down for reasons)







Giant Hammer: Kirby swings a massive hammer, which is slower but stronger than his normal one. This move has incredible knockback, has super armor while charging, and is unblockable, so shields and counters won't work against it. Kirby moves much slower than the original Hammer Flip, though, and takes longer to pull the actual hammer out. This Hammer Flip is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)







Meteor Stone: Kirby takes longer to transform back, but he will meteor smash any opponents he comes in contact with while falling. This is one of the strongest, if not the strongest meteor smash in the game. The start-up time is similar to Stone, while the transformation time is increased. The actual time it takes to be able to exit Meteor Stone is drastically increased, making it so Kirby can easily lose a stock when using this move. This Stone is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)







Jumping Inhale: Kirby jumps and moves a significant distance forward as he inhales. The whirlwind vacuum is removed. The start-up and endlag are the same as default Inhale, although the fact that Kirby moves makes it much less punishable. It is also changed into a true command grab, as the whirlwind doesn't exist on this custom. This Inhale is RECOMMENDED. When landing, Kirby creates a shockwave, sending rocks flying upwards. This is basically Final Cutter, but the blade no longer has a hitbox, while the shockwave now goes further and does a bit more damage. This isrecommended - this move gets rid of the blade hitbox which somewhat covers Kirby as he recovers in place for one of the worst projectiles in the game. I haven't tested extensively with this move, but I believe it has less height than Final Cutter, too.Kirby swings his hammer forwards in an arch, which sends opponents skyward on contact. He cannot charge this move. This is pretty similar to Kirby's Hammer from Brawl, although this one has stronger killing power and has some odd momentum properties. This is(check further down for reasons)Kirby takes longer to transform into the Stone, but grounded enemies are buried on contact. This move has little endlag while having quite a bit of transformation time, which makes it safer in some ways, and less safe in others. When hitting aerial opponents, this move does a lot less knockback than default Stone. When hitting grounded opponents, however, it buries them and allows Kirby to punish in whatever way he'd like. This Stone is. (check further down for reasons)Kirby breathes cold air to freeze nearby opponents, but loses the Copy Abilities. This move has the same start-up as default Inhale with less endlag, making in a little bit safer to use against opponents. Obviously, this isn't a command grab like Inhale is, so it can be shielded. This Inhale ischeck further down for reasons)Stronger than his normal blade, doesn't hit anything on the way down. This move goes significantly further than Final Cutter does, does more damage, and has more knockback, for the trade-off of losing the downwards hit that gives Kirby atrocious endlag. It also snaps to ledges, unlike the other two Final Cutter customs. This Final Cutter is(check further down for reasons)Kirby swings a massive hammer, which is slower but stronger than his normal one. This move has incredible knockback, has super armor while charging, and is unblockable, so shields and counters won't work against it. Kirby moves much slower than the original Hammer Flip, though, and takes longer to pull the actual hammer out. This Hammer Flip is(check further down for reasons)Kirby takes longer to transform back, but he will meteor smash any opponents he comes in contact with while falling. This is one of the strongest, if not the strongest meteor smash in the game. The start-up time is similar to Stone, while the transformation time is increased. The actual time it takes to be able to exit Meteor Stone is drastically increased, making it so Kirby can easily lose a stock when using this move. This Stone is(check further down for reasons)Kirby jumps and moves a significant distance forward as he inhales. The whirlwind vacuum is removed. The start-up and endlag are the same as default Inhale, although the fact that Kirby moves makes it much less punishable. It is also changed into a true command grab, as the whirlwind doesn't exist on this custom. This Inhale is

Upper Cutter:

Recovery:

Uses:

Jumping Inhale:

Uses:

Ice Breath:



Uses:

Hammer Bash:

Giant Hammer:



Uses:

Grounding Stone:



Uses:



Meteor Stone:

Uses

I feel like the main reason nobody talks about Kirby's customs is the lack of Kirby mains, the lack of custom moves, and the lack of Kirby players using custom moves (because apparently some Kirby mains like Final Cutter). While he may not be exactly top 5 with characters like Palutena and Ganondorf existing, he's definitely right next to them.First, let's trim down the list of Custom Moves. These are Kirby's custom moves for those who don't know, and which ones I personally recommend/don't recommend. This isthe explanation on why each of them is good, their uses, etc., but rather a general listing to find out which ones are even worth exploring.---Now that the list is trimmed, it's time to go over his actual custom moves. First, I'd like to talk about Upper Cutter, which is probably Kirby's best move and one of the best specials in the game.As said before, this move is basically a straight-up buff compared to Final Cutter or Wave Cutter. There's literally no reason to use the others when this exists. It's faster, a lot less punishable, loads stronger, and generally a better move. Now, let's go over each of the actual attributes of this move.Using the recovery ranking , here's how Upper Cutter stands as a recovery.While I don't have exact measurements, this move has incredible vertical distance, rivaling some of the best recovery moves. I believe it goes around the same height as Shuttle Loop, if not a bit higher or lower. With horizontal distance, this move doesn't have as much, but due to Kirby's actual jumps, this doesn't matter. However, for some reason, Kirby keeps all his air speed when going into a free fall, unlike some characters such as Palutena, Zelda, and Villager, who can barely move when in a free fall. This lets him get a bit more horizontal distance than the actual recovery travels. For diagonal distance, it's basically combining the amazing vertical distance and his oddly fast free-fall speed, so it goes fairly far.As said before, unlike most free falls, Kirby keeps almost all his air speed when moving. Unlike other characters, he doesn't move slower than snail pace when stuck in a free fall, which lets him avoid punishes better if he misses the move or something of that sort.This is really where this move shines - Kirby's Upper Cutter hitbox is huge cause it's disjointed, has incredibly strength, and sends at a perfect angle for stage spiking. This covers Kirby really well, so he doesn't have to worry about being completely wrecked once he's off-stage, and can almost always get back.While I actually didn't know it, apparently from your tests, Kirby is invincible during Upper Cutter. This makes Upper Cutter even more safe than it already was, as he's... literally invincible. Combining the hitbox and invincibility, wow. That's great.As has been talked about before, Kirby is, quite literally, invincible to being edgeguarded. He has a hugely disjointed move that easily stage spikes opponents, making them lose their stock. He's invincible himself, making it so that he can't be hurt whatsoever. The move comes out incredibly fast and goes upwards at sanic-speed, making it almost impossible to catch Kirby during the ledge vulnerability. The only times I've ever been edgeguarded as Kirby is when I do something stupid, such as try to jump back to the ledge instead of relying to the god-like Upper Cutter.Multiple jumps, floatiness, one of the fastest recovery moves in the game, covers insane distances. Kirby could just fly under the ledge and never die by using his floatiness. While the move doesn't require flexibility or anything due to truly being invincible, it still has them.Going from the other things I've said, I think it's pretty clear that it's reliable.All that really needs to be said here is that this move starts snapping to ledges on frame 4, so I could use it right below the ledge and still snap.We've covered the fact that this is an amazing recovery, now let's cover it's uses throughout a match.Upper Cutter is great as an OoS attack. It does 10%, has great knockback, covers huge distances to punish both aerial and grounded attacks, and comes out on f5/f6 with invincibility. The only risk of using it is the fact that is puts Kirby high into the air, with his lackluster air speed and floatiness, making it harder to get back down. However, the grounded version of this move travels less distance than the aerial version, meaning it's not as punishable as it seems.One of the best things about this already amazing move is that it expands Kirby's combo game greatly. I'll be getting the actual percentages later, but from some quick tests I did a while ago, Kirby can use Upper Cutter after the following moves as a true combo:That's half of Kirby's moveset that Upper Cutter can be used to finish combos. While some moves, such as D-Tilt, have better combos and follow-ups, it's still nice to have this as an option.As an example. F-Throw to F-Air is a true combo on bigger characters, along with heavy floaties such as R.O.B. and Samus. Kirby can use this to D-Air > D-Tilt > F-Throw > F-Air > Dash Attack > Upper Cutter, which, if done fast enough, is a true combo.My main use for this move with combos is using it as a juggle finisher, as after a couple U-Airs, I can use Upper Cutter to finish it off with an extra 10%.As has been pointed out a couple times before, Upper Cutter has enough knockback growth to the point where it kills. Kirby actually has more kill set-ups using this, which greatly enhances his potential to kill. While there may be more, here are the ones that I've found (these are true combos, obviously):Having a tilt that sets up for kills, especially when that tilt comes out incredibly fast with little endlag, is great. Having an aerial that sets up for kills and a move (Upper Cutter) that kills by default in the air makes it much more dangerous to be above Kirby at higher percents. After a few tests, here's the kill percents on a couple random characters without Rage or DI on Final Destination:95%100%75%0% (tested from FH height)90%65%105%115%85%95% (tested from FH height)105%80%120%135%100%- 110% (tested from FH height)- 125%100%This expands on the fact that both Kirby's D-Air and D-Tilt set up for kills, which gives Kirby quite a bit of options for killing opponents. Two of his tilts and two of his aerials now sets up kills, with his B-Air, D-Air (off-stage), all his smashes, and all four of his special moves being "kill moves" (Kirbycide, Upper Cutter, (Meteor) Stone, Hammer variations)This move's main difference compared to Inhale is that Kirby lunges forward while inhaling. Along with the general superiority of this move, as it's less punishable and easier to land, it comes with a few differences in the use of it.This move comes with a few quirks that default Inhale doesn't come with, most of (if not all) which are added due to the forward momentum while using it.One of the biggest buffs about this Inhale is that the biggest flaw of Copy is fixed. With default Inhale, if you use Copy on certain characters, they can use moves like their D-Air or D-Special to hit Kirby before he can move. With Jumping Inhale, if you hold down, Kirby will Copy on the first frame possible. If an opponent tries to use a move that'll hit Kirby while copying, Kirby will drift with his momentum from the move to avoid the attack, and can then punish it. This helps, as Kirby won't be losing abilities the second he gets them, and won't take a hit trying to use the Copy Abilities.This is a bit of a gimmick, obviously, but Kirbycide is much more viable with Jumping Inhale. While it doesn't work on every character, characters who have poor recovery, whether it be horizontally, vertically, or both, will suffer from this. In this game, when an opponent breaks out of Kirby's mouth, they come out above him instead of below. If they jump directly back to the stage, Kirby will get footstool'd, giving the opponent a huge boost in recovery. However, if Kirby jumps towards or away from the opponent (but NEVER straight upwards), he won't get footstool'd, leaving opponents to rely on their recovery. This will force opponents to recover in a specific way, so against characters like Duck Hunt or Olimar, Kirby can quickly latch to the ledge with Upper Cutter, then come back with D-Air. Kirbycide is actually viable against some bigger characters, fast fallers, and a couple random characters, though, because Kirby will always get the footstool on them. Some characters, such as Donkey Kong and Bowser have huge heads, so Kirby can easily footstool them before they can do anything. Other characters, like Captain Falcon and Sheik, give Kirby a free footstool, as their fall speed makes them come out below Kirby. I have no idea why some characters, such as Diddy Kong, can be footstool'd out of it.Ice Breath has to be one of the weirdest disjoints in this game. It's a active, multi-hitting, freezing disjoint. This move removes Kirby's main feature, the Copy Abilities, so it's better fit against characters who don't have good or useful abilities. However, even if the Copy Ability is useful, this move has some amazing features.Along with the weird disjoint that comes with this move, this move has another odd attribute. Kirby's hurtbox, while still existing, is overlapped with a hitbox. This makes this move much more useful than it originally would be.This, in my opinion, is what makes this move have so much use. If properly spaced, this move will cover every single possible ledge option, freeze the opponent, and knock them back off the stage. Usually, opponents would be able to roll into Kirby and run past. However, as Kirby is now a hitbox, he drags the opponents into him on their first ledge roll vulnerability frame, then shoves them back out. This move does 6~10% if countering get-up, attack, jump, and aerial, and does 16~22% if the opponent gets up with a roll. The main part about this is that the opponent has to take a gamble. This move requires almost perfect spacing, so it's easy to mess up. This means that the opponent can roll into Kirby and get a free smash attack, or roll into Kirby and take a ton of damage. The only way to get around this is to ledge drop and jump around Kirby, which almost every character will have to use their recovery to do. Kirby can stop the move when they start going over him, and punish the endlag. Oh, and for some odd reason, the move ends up sticking out underneath the ledge, so opponents who try to ride up the ledge while recovering can no longer do so.Not really sure what to call this, but it just adds to the weirdness of this move. While almost every move in the game is stopped by the disjoint in front of Kirby, the hitbox that covers Kirby's body can protect him from some moves. While I haven't tested this out as much, moves such as Greninja's Shadow Sneak, Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape, and Little Mac's K.O. Punch (depends on spacing) are stopped if they try to hit Kirby. This may not have as much practicality given the start-up on the move, but it shuts down some options that would possibly avoid Ice Breath on the ledge.Hammer Bash, to put it simply, is Kirby's old Hammer Swing from Brawl. The main difference, however, is that this move has some odd momentum carrying stuff. I've already talked about this before, so I'll just link that for this:The only thing that's changed since then is that, as you've pointed out, Kirby can just double jump for Meteor Stone. I found this out almost directly after making that post, which made me feel kind of stupid. Was going to post something about it but didn't that night and never got to it, lol. At least now I've been testing everything a billion times before saying anything here now!As a TL:DR, Kirby gets some cool momentum stuff to boost his jump height to the same as Falco, and boost his recovery to equal the height of Villager's Balloon Trip. It's a better/safer kill option compared to Hammer Flip, and is more suited for punishing laggy moves.Giant Hammer, while being harder to land than others, is a lot more viable in certain match-ups. It has a few quirks of it's own - super armor while charging, strongest move in the game when fully charged (beats K.O. Punch), and the best trolling move in the game.This move is highly match-up dependent. It has a slow charge, but comes with super armor while charging to remedy this. The only option opponents have is to dash grab Kirby, which is risking a ton as this move kills every character past 10% from the middle of Battlefield, or use a command grab that has long range, such as Ganondorf's Flame Choke.Using the Super Armor, it shuts down every option other than dash grab and command grab. Shields and counters don't work against this move, as it's unblockable, which also removes any hope of using a standing grab. Dash grabs have longer start-up than standing grabs for most, which allows this move (fully charged) to beat out a bit of grabs. Giant Hammer beats out f12 grabs when fully charged, which makes dash grabbing much more risky on certain characters. With all of this, it actually makes it viable in certain match-ups. Against characters with slow grounded speed, slow dash grabs, or short grab range, Giant Hammer has a much higher chance of hitting. Trying to use aerial speed to land behind Kirby won't work, either, as the move can be released the frame the turn around animation starts, making Kirby swing the opposite direction. Along with that, against Marth and Lucina... Shield Breaker is a beautiful move to have. Bringing this into doubles is hilarious.Grounding Stone, along with the weaker knockback when used on aerial opponents and the burying ability when used on grounded opponents, this move has some odd changes to the start-up and endlag of the move.The biggest change in this move is the different start-up and endlag of the move, which gives it much more purpose than default Stone. This makes it have much more utility than default Stone, as it's not just an edgeguarding move that can kill at higher percents. Kirby already has enough of those.As I've said multiple times, this move has different start-up and endlag compared to default Stone and Meteor Stone. It has much higher start-up than the other Stone variations, but has practically no endlag. This Stone falls faster than the default Stone, and allows Kirby to escape out of it relatively fast instead of having to come in contact with something. Combining the faster fall speed, faster get-out time, and lower endlag, along with the regular Stone attributes, such as the Super Armor and falling hitbox, it makes this move godly for escaping juggles. If default Stone was used, the endlag usually results in Kirby getting punished with a falling aerial or possibly a better move depending on the fall speed of the character. With this, Kirby can immediately get out, fast fall into shield/spotdodge/roll/attack, attack with any aerial, jump, or airdodge. This also allows Kirby to get down after being knocked upwards faster, so the opponent has less time to set up anything. Against characters with a good juggling game and characters that enjoy killing off the top, this move is amazing.As should be known, burying an opponent usually can be followed up with any move. This move puts opponents into the ground much longer than other moves, and combined with the short endlag, allow Kirby to start combos or punish after landing this move. The main things Kirby can do is use Hammer Bash immediately after, D-Air when they pop out to start other combos, or Upper Cutter when they pop out for the kill. Due to the high start-up, it's much harder to land this move on-stage. However, jumping up and using this move, so far, seems like a viable way to punish read dash attacks, grabs, and some ledge options. Even then, the Super Armor allows Kirby to tank a move and punish or get out immediately and avoid a punish, making it much more safe to use on the stage.Meteor Stone is another match-up dependent move. While it has higher endlag and get-out time (so much that you can easily SD with it), it's one of the strongest meteors in the game, killing from the ledge at a measly 10%.Obviously, the main use for Meteor Stone, as the name implies, is to meteor opponents. This makes the move highly match-up dependent, as it doesn't have much use outside of that.This move is best suited against characters with slower, predictable recovery, such as Villager, Olimar, and Pit. Kirby usually can't edgeguard these opponents with his D-Air, as they can recover every time. However, using Meteor Stone, they can be killed incredibly early. The main downside to this move is that, if whiffed, Kirby will almost always die instead. The basic fix for this is to jump a second time before using it, as Kirby can escape it just before reaching the blast zone. It can also be used against Pac-Man's Trampoline, although this results in both Kirby and Pac-Man dying, as they touch the trampoline at the same time and both go into a helpless state.---Well, there's my little write-up on Kirby's custom moves. While his custom moves don't fix any of his huge flaws, such as his poor grounded and air speed, it gives Kirby much more options and makes him much more threatening. His customs allow him to cover himself in most match-ups, to remove some of the advantages characters have. Pikachu won't be able to edgeguard him without risk anymore, Greninja can't shark him to keep him in the air forever, and Captain Falcon will be suffering from Kirbycides.I will say this - without custom moves, I agree with most of the early tier list positions he's in. He can easily be edgeguarded as Final Cutter offers barely any protection, can never use Copy or Kirbycide as Inhale is horrid in this game, can never escape juggles and sharking due to his slow speed, and can fix the unholy changes that were given to his Hammer Swing in this game.However, with customs, I think Kirby becomes plenty viable. He's definitely not a high-tier top 10 character, but I'd say he goes from the bottom of the dump to the higher mid-tier. His custom moves do a lot for him, and while it may not SEEM like much, it adds a ton to his game... especially that godly Upper Cutter.WOW THIS TOOK FOREVER.Oh, last thing. This works on Rosalina and Ganondorf, true combo, only works at 55% and 75% respectively, and is a frame-perfect thing so it took me forever to get it correct just for one recording: