During a recent interview with famed friend of Michael Jordan and Back9Network host Ahmad Rashad, Michael Jordan was asked about his dream foursome for golf. It’s a standard hypothetical question debated at 19th holes all across the country and Jordan was ready, instantly naming Arnold Palmer as his first playing partner. MJ then debated his next choice aloud.

Your browser does not support iframes.

Michael Jordan: “I never played with Obama, but I would. But naw, that’s okay, I take him out, he’s a hack. It’d be all day playing with him.”

Ahmad Rashad: “Do you really want to say that? That the President of the United States is a hack?”

Michael Jordan: “Don’t worry about it. I never said he wasn’t a great politician, I just said he was a [expletive] golfer.”

So is the president a [not very good] golfer, as Jordan says and Rashad contradicts?

It sort of depends on your baseline. Jordan is a low handicap (various reports have him at a 3 or 4), so most golfers would be [substandard] to him. (And, let’s be honest, MJ probably thinks most mortals are [second-rate] at sports when compared to himself. Kwame Brown knows what we’re talking about.) But when compared to the usual weekend warriors that are hacking around golf courses across the country, Obama is probably average. One of the president’s frequent golf partners, Marvin Nicholson, told Golf Digest Obama “usually shoots in the mid-90s,” but “he’d be better if he could play more.”

Obama recently played his 200th round since entering office in 2009.