On CNN on Monday night, host Chris Cuomo and former Obama ethics czar Norm Eisen were almost floored by former Donald Trump White House lawyer Jim Schultz, who asserted that no one close to Trump has been charged with any crimes relating to his campaign.

“Even a dummy like me knows that’s not true,” Cuomo said to Schultz.

The portion of the lively discussion that prompted Cuomo’s disbelief began when he asked Schultz, “Why are all these people around the president lying about something that doesn’t matter?”

“If Russia is just a hoax, if there’s nothing there, if there’s no reason to even do this investigation,” he said, “why do they keep lying about this? Five now you’ve had in some way compromised by this.”

“We don’t know specifically what the issues are relative to the lying,” said Schultz.

“Michael Flynn lied about Russia conversation. George Papadopoulos lied about Russia contact. Michael Cohen lied about keeping the president’s business clear of the Russia affair. We don’t know the depth of [Rick] Gates and [Paul] Manafort and what they’ve done. We’ll know this week,” said Cuomo. “But don’t say it’s, like, some kind of blind instrument. You know a lot, Jim.”

Eisen jumped in to argue that Trump has a “bad motive” and that’s why there is interference with the investigation and why so many are lying– that is, to cover-up for and protect Trump.

“None of this comes to anything, none of this, to date, has come close to the president of the United States,” insisted Schultz. “None of this has come close.”

“Michael Cohen did,” said Cuomo. “Michael Cohen’s all over the president.”

“None of them. No one has been charged with any crimes relative to their activities on the campaign,” continued an emphatic Schultz, “the work that they did on the campaign.”

Cuomo renewed his objection: “Michael Cohen has!”

“No, Michael Cohen was charged with a campaign finance violation–” began Schultz before crosstalk drowned him out.

After getting control back, Cuomo objected about Cohen once more.

“Michael Cohen was charged with something to do with borrowing money, something to do with talking to the bank about the money that he borrowed, something to do with lying about the payoff on the women and something to do with lying about a campaign contribution to do with paying off the women. Two of those four are directly related to the president. He now just pleaded guilty to lying to Congress about the President’s business to cover for the president,” he said. “How can you say it’s not related, Jim? Even a dummy like me knows that’s not true.”

“I didn’t say it wasn’t related,” said Schultz, who moments before said it was not related. “There’s been nothing in connection with conduct associated with anyone on that campaign as it related to work they did on that campaign. It hasn’t happened.”

After Eisen pointed out that Cohen is admitting guilt on precisely things related to the campaign, Schultz turned to the argument Rudy Giuliani and other Trump insiders are running with against Cohen, which they have used against everyone who leaves the Trump circle, which is to say they are untrustworthy liars. “To say that what Michael Cohen says is gospel is just irresponsible,” he tacked on.

Watch the clip above, courtesy of CNN.

[Featured image via screengrab]

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