Dr Pepper Talks to Creationists

Now, please state the scientific theory of creationism.

Date: 15 Oct 93 20:21:00 From: Dr Pepper To: Kevin Davis Subject: Challenging Evolution AREA:EVOLUTION SO YOU WANT TO ARGUE AGAINST EVOLUTION Dear Creationist, We who follow conventional science appreciate your zeal and commitment in desiring to show us the errors of evolution. However, it has been our experience that the vast majority of challengers such as yourself are woefully unequipped for this endeavor. So in order to save us all some time and grief, and to keep you from making an utter fool of yourself, we have prepared this text to help you out. Step 1: Do you know anything at all about evolution? (you'd be surprised how many creationists don't) Please answer the following yes or no questions: 1. Does evolution rely entirely on randomness? 2. Does evolution violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? 3. Does evolution say anything about the origin of life? 4. Does evolution say anything about the origin of the universe? 5. Does evolution deny the existance of God? 6. Does evolution proceed from simplicity to complexity? 7. Does evolution proceed from lower to higher lifeforms? 8. Does evolution incorporate the notion of progress? 9. Does evolution have any moral consequences? 10. Does evolution stipulate any political attitudes? 11. Is evolution incompatible with any major religion? 12. Is it true that their are no transitional forms? Step 2: Scoring. Count up the number of times you answered "yes". If this number is zero, proceed to step 3. Otherwise slam your head against the wall as many times as you answered "yes" and go back to step 1. Step 3: Materials. Do you have any materials authored by members of the ICR? If so throw them away. Use them here and you will be held responsible for the baltant lies and stupidity in them. Step 4: Conventional Science Quotes. Are you planning to present quotes from conventional scientists that seem to express disagreement with evolution? If so, make sure that you have them from the original sources and that they are quoted in full and in context. If you have misquotes and typical creationist butcher jobs, you will be destroyed without mercy. Step 5: Creationist Quotes. If you have quotes from creationists, they'd better be supported. And if the creationists claim educational or scientific backgrounds, degrees, titles, and such, you'd better check them and make sure they are accurate. If we catch you quoting liars, we will treat you as a liar yourself. Step 6: Anecdotes. If you have stories of things that you think bolster your case, be prepared to cite verifiable specifics. Be assured that you will be checked up on. Step 7: Faqs. This newsgroup has some wonder faq files available. Read them. Carefully. All the way through. Step 8: Congratulations, you are ready to argue against evolution. Please state your first objection. --- * Origin: I survived: Reagan-Bush, 1980-1992 (1:103/241) Date: 15 Oct 93 20:23:00 From: Dr Pepper To: Kevin Davis Subject: What is evolution? AREA:EVOLUTION A Quick Description of the Theory of Evolution for Creationists --------------------------------------------------------------- First we have to distinguish between the theory of evolution, and the fact of evolution. I'll start with the fact. Well you've probably heard the phrase "A change in allele frequencies over time" but that's a little complex. So i'll stick with Darwin's phrase "Descent with Modification", which is still an adequate summation. Descent with modification means that as one observes a population over time, one sees change over generations. The amount of change can vary, but in general, the more time, the more change. We can observe this happening today by direct observation, over relatively short periods of time. And we can observe it happening in the past through the fossil record, over relatively long periods of time. So as you can see, to say that "evolution happens" is pretty much on a par with saying "gravity happens". The theory has to do with *how*. So now i will state the theory. Again, i will use an old and traditional form: DIFFERENTIAL REPRODUCTIVE SUCCESS which means that within a given population, different individuals will, under the same conditions, have different chances to reproduce, and thus pass on their particular genetic makeups. And since genetic makeups are always changing, there are always differences. It doesn't matter how the differences arise, nor the nature of the circumstances that affect reproductive success. As long as both exist, evolution will happen. As you can see, my statements above contained no unfounded assertions, no statements against any other theory, nor was it just a list of predictions. However, it is a basis from which we can go on and make predictions. One important prediction is that for any given physical feature, (to the extent the data is available), we can take a horizontal slice, that is in one time period examine different species that have that trait, and find a range of variants of it. The beaks of Darwin's finches are a classic example of this. Or we can take a vertical slice, that is look at a given trait in through time, and see a sequence of change. Further we can see development, that is to say, if a given trait has a given use we can go back and find in the lineage of the creature that has that trait, an earlier creature that has a less developed version of it, where "less developed" is used in the sense of the later use, not in the sense of it being *totally* useless before then. A fine example of this is the development of the mammalian inner ear from the reptilian jawbone. A faq is available on this. Another, somewhat trivial prediction is the phylogenic tree itself. Now of course, you have heard that there are a number of different theories, plural, of evolution. Yes there are. And all of them are perfectly compatible with "Descent with modification". These theories are intended to fine tune the above and explain the details. This is analogous to the way quantum physics explains electron orbitals without repudiating the idea that electrons are bound to the atomic nucleus by the attraction of opposite charges. 10 2 DR PEPPER 4 --- * Origin: I survived: Reagan-Bush, 1980-1992 (1:103/241)