Posted: 4/19/2019 5:31:35 PM EDT [Last Edit: 5/5/2019 6:34:28 PM EDT by delorean]



https://www.gunbroker.com/item/801646610



The listing says it's a "HK MP5 Briefcase" in the title and "Like new Hofbauer MP5K Briefcase made in German" in the description. The pics show the "Hofbauer" and "Made in Germany" stamp in the case. I sent a "take a shot offer" for a fair amount for an authentic HK case that is like new, and seller accepts. He was traveling, and so was I, so I just asked if I could send a personal check which he didn't have a problem with as long as it waiting to clear.....no problem. He shipped it and it arrived last week.



It's a counterfeit/replica briefcase. Not made by HK & Hofbauer, nor in Germany



First thing I noticed when I pulled it out of the box is that the handle was cold and metal. All the ones I've ever seen in HK literature or other places have had plastic handles. I started poking around online and found a few websites about them, two of which had info about knock-offs. Phillips head screws in the handle vs. flat heads. The hinges and keys are US made vs. German (like the Germans would buy hardware from us??) The real ones have some tooling/mold marks inside that this one doesn't, and a few other small things that don't match up.



I called HK in Columbus, GA to see if they ever produced one with a metal handle and was told they did not have any knowledge of that (and that a lot of people copy their stuff.) Apparently there was a place called Special Weapons that made a whole bunch of replicas years ago, and it looks like that's what I may have received.



Before I spoke with HK, I had emailed the seller and politely asked if he knew this was a knock-off (or if he had any more info of where he got it). He says he's at Knob Creek with HK pros doesn't understand what the problem is. So after I spoke to the real HK pros at HK-US, I sent this through the GB-messenger:



Just documenting this through GB that I received the briefcase from #5082486 yesterday 4/11 and I believe it to be a copy / knock-off. I called H&K in Georgia and they said every one of these cases they have ever seen has a plastic handle, not aluminum. Also, any stock H&K photos on the internet show the case with a smaller, more rounded carry handle with slotted screws vs. Phillips head like this one has. Apparently there are a lot of counterfeit cases out there (made by Todd Bailey of Special Weapons), and the easiest way to tell is the machined metal handle vs. plastic. H&K said they could verify the authenticity of it, but they were pretty sure this was a fake based off of the handle as I described it. Please advise if you have any material to prove the authenticity of this, otherwise I would like to return it.



Seller responds:



That case is exactly as described in the description and the pictures are the same as the ones online I have seen.



I’m at Knob Creek with two people who run the HK Pro website and they just looked at the pictures and are curious what the problem is.



https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/24/lightning-review-hk-mp5k-briefcase-luggage-can-fire/amp/



((The one pictured in this article is a fake--that's why the trim was flaking off.))



I respond:



https://www.guns.com/news/2013/03/22/hk-operational-briefcase-now-thats-a-man-bag



"Genuine HK-made Hofbauer GmbH MP5K/SP89 Operational Briefcases will have a plastic carrying handle held on with standard slotted screws. Also, look for German text written on the underside of the mounts inside the case. If you come across cases with aluminum handles or Phillips head screws, it’s probably some sort of knockoff. With the MP5K made under license in both Iran and Turkey, anything is possible. "



https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/27/review-hk-mp5k-briefcase-modifications/



".....briefcase handle is also different from mine. It looks like it is machined and uses phillips screws rather than the slotted screws that mine has. According to Scott, these are not H&K briefcases but replicas by Tom Bailey back when he ran Special Weapons"



I'm not basing everything on these two websites, that's why I called H&K and asked. They told me they've never seen one with a metal handle before. So, I'll send them pictures and see if they can confirm or deny whether or not it's truly a H&K produced case. If it's not, then it doesn't match the description as it wasn't made in by Hofbauer, nor was it made in Germany. I didn't take the handle off to see if there was German writing under the mount.



Don't get me wrong here, I'm not accusing you of deceiving me......if this is in fact a counterfeit, I assume you just didn't know that. If this is an extremely rare H&K case that they made with a metal handle, then lucky me, but it's not looking that way.



Seller responds:



I’m trying to figure out what the problem is here exactly. The case is for an HK MP5K it’s marked as I put in the description with photos of the marking. Now you are saying it’s something other than what I said it is in my description. Yet the pictures match my description. I know very little about these cases other than I used it and it worked as intended.



I’m not sure what you are expecting or wanting



I respond:



You just said what the exact problem is: "The case is for an HK MP5K it’s marked as I put in the description with photos of the marking". You didn't put "for a HK" in the description, you described it as a "HK case" than was "made in Germany". A "HK case" is a lot different than "Case for a HK". It was not produced by Hofbauer, nor was it made in Germany regardless of what the stamp says.



Title: HK MP5K Briefcase HK MP5 Germany



Description: Like new Hofbauer MP5K Briefcase made in German. I bought it new several years ago. Case has been used a few times but is in perfect shape. Comes with Keys and port plugs. No restrictions in owning this. Case is NOT AN AOW.



I paid $2700 for a HK-produced item in Germany, not a knockoff made in somewhere else. Zenith's Z-5 will never be worth as much a real HK MP5. If you list a HK MP5 and send someone a Zenith Z5 instead, how is that going to go?



I looked more at more pics, and the originals have 4 tooling marks inside the case on each side, this one does not. I doubt the German's would use US-made hinges and keys too. I'm sure the thing works just fine......but just like a fake Rolex, it may be nearly identical and keep perfect time, but it's not a Rolex and it can't be sold as such. Put it back out on GB and be careful how you word it--I'm sure somebody will buy it that is more concerned with the functionality than the investment factor.





Then I find this from 12/2015......he posts a WTB and knows there are FAKES:



Here he is trying to buy another one in 5/2018:



That sale went bad and he posts how he was "trying to verify the manufacturer":



-------



Since then I've sent two emails asking to return it, and no response. I also told him since he's ignoring me, I'm going to file a fraud complaint on GB and leave negative feedback.....no response. Either way, I can't do that until next Thursday since it has to be 30-60 days after the sale.



I don't think I'm in the wrong here, so what say you? This is the first time I've had a deal on a firearm related item go bad. Maybe I was just lucky up until this point. GB has a $500 guarantee minus $100 deductible. So that only nets me $400 max if they find in my favor.



Where else do I potentially go with this?

USPS? I sent him a check through the mail and he sent the box through the mail. Plus, inside the box he used a bunch of brand new Priority Mail bubble mailers as packing material (that's against postal code.) FILED 4/25



Local PD? Not sure how easy it is to file a police report from two states away, but I'll do it.



IC3.gov? Fill out a form online for internet fraud. FILED 4/25



Strumgewehr? Go post this over there where he does a lot of business?



ATF? Send it all to the ATF. It's not a firearm, but it's related and they don't want criminals being FFL's right?

I'm pissed, but not quite ready to go scorched earth on the guy.........this could easily be solved if he just took the thing back. I can resell it and get some of my money back, but it's definitely not worth the $2700 I paid for it.



------------------------



UPDATE #1:



Thanks below to the guy who posted how the fakes have ARMS mounts in them. After a closer look, yes this one has and ARMS mount that fits flat against the top of the case. The release lever is mounted toward the rear of the case. It also has a brass deflector I'm told is not found in the originals. I highly doubt that a German firearm manufacturer imported ARMS mounts to install in their cases. This shooting case was NOT "made in Germany"



On the HK produced ones, they have to legs that mount to the case, no deflector, and the release lever is mounted toward the front of the case. Here's the firing case on HK's website:



Real One currently listed on HK's website (look at the handle and mount):







Case received:











Also, here's GB's user agreement and site rules about selling:



3. Prohibited Listings. You must have the legal right to sell any Items you list on our Site. You may not list the following on our Site: (a) live animals; (b) human body parts (e.g., relics, skulls, human remains or other parts); (c) bulk email lists; (d) illegal weapons, instructions, kits, plans, or parts designed to illegally convert firearms to full-auto fire; (e) instructions, kits, plans, or parts designed to illegally build silencers; (f) instructions on how to build bombs or explosives; (g) unauthorized replicas, (h) items containing faces, names or signatures of any person unless authorized by that person; (i) hazardous, restricted or toxic materials or substances; or (j) multi-level marketing or similar programs. You may not list any Item that would cause us or you to violate any applicable law, statute, ordinance or regulation. You may not list any Item that is stolen or counterfeit . Your Listing may not be defamatory, libelous, threatening or harassing; and it may not contain obscenity or child pornography.



Seller Undertakings.

Listing an Item constitutes entering into a binding legal contract with the buyer to sell the Item on the terms stated in this Agreement, the Site Rules and in the Listing, if the buyer’s bid is the winning bid. You agree to complete the sale of all listed Items on such terms.

You represent to us that (A) you have the legal right to sell the Items you list, and (B) the sale of your Items on the Site will not (1) be fraudulent or involve the sale of counterfeit or stolen items, (2) shall not infringe any parties’ copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other proprietary rights or rights of publicity or privacy, or (3) violate any Legal Requirement (including without limitation those Legal Requirements governing export or import control, consumer protection, unfair competition, anti-discrimination or false advertising).





--------



UPDATE #2:



Here's the seller making light of the whole situation on Reddit. It's "worth a chuckle" that he has a customer pissed off over a $2700 sale, and he brags about it on Reddit......yet wouldn't respond to my emails. Apparently he thinks you can use put whatever you want in there for SEO purposes and it doesn't matter......but this is under the Site Rules of GB: Your description of the Item must be accurate and truthful. Adding additional unrelated keywords to your Listing to make it appear through our search facilities is prohibited.



https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/bftgzm/wtb_someone_to_organize_my_safes_while_i_drink/



eMGunslinger

100+ MG's

9 points

·

2 days ago

Way to much work and if you follow AR15.Com its for being a shady piece of shit and selling “fake” HK briefcases



level 3

WolfgangxZ

8 points

·

2 days ago

What line of work are you in? I might have to change my career haha. And what do you mean about HK briefcases? I rarely go on that forum, I stay here more often than not.



level 4

eMGunslinger

100+ MG's

5 points

·

2 days ago

MG’s and gunwork is what I do. Also it’s worth finding for a decent chuckle



level 3

Pershing15E

5 points

·

1 day ago

Well, you did sell him a fake HK briefcase.



level 4

eMGunslinger

100+ MG's

0 points

·

1 day ago

Can you show me in my description exactly where I said "HK"? I have read it a few times now and am having trouble finding those words.



I wrote the description exactly as I saw the information on the briefcase since its stamped on the sides. Nothing more and nothing less.

Got it from a guy on HK Pro a number of years ago who got it off GB from OTB Firearms in 2007. Sold it how I got it with all the stuff the guy originally included.



You know what I can tell you about that case though which was really important to me? When I put my HK MP5K in it the case, the gun shot bullets and the few people I shot it with greatly enjoyed it. Even my buddy who almost shot himself in the back of the knee with it.



level 5

Pershing15E

3 points

·

1 day ago

"HK MP5K Briefcase" is the title of your ad. The ad was ambiguous, not very descriptive, but I would also put blame on the buyer for not asking questions. However, you're the pro, the business owner, and your response is immature and unprofessional. I don't mean that to be insulting but if you want to be in business you have to learn to deal with customers, even difficult ones, better than you did in this case. You devalued your brand.



level 6

eMGunslinger

100+ MG's

1 point

·

1 day ago

Title is merely for SEO as im sure you are aware. Description is what it is short yes but I covered everything I saw pertinent on the case.

If the gentleman would have asked for 20 more photos I would have happily sent them over to him, write his name on a piece of paper. Whatever anyone needs to make a sale and verify anything needed. I do not pressure people to buy stuff from me. There is a ass for every seat and if he didn't want it someone else would have hopefully came along and bought it instead.

I maybe a professional at a lot of shit if people give me that title I will accept it. To say I am an expert at ANYTHING HK related especially those briefcases is giving me far more credit than what is due.

I value your opinion and everyone is entitled to one no matter if they are wrong or not (not saying you are). But I am not in the business of refunding people when I box and deliver what has been described. Far to many times in my life have people made excuses, tried to manipulate the situation, or something otherwise. Its a blanket policy for any and all.

If there was something mechanically wrong I would always stand behind the product and offer to fix it no charge and I would cover shipping and if it could not be repaired for some reason then I would explore other options.



Are there people on there or here that think less of me? Most likely and they are free to think what they want and I harbor no ill towards them. Could they voice their opinions less blunt? Sure but thats here nor there.



Filing a fraud complaint on GB tomorrow......will update with results.



-----------------



UPDATE #3:



Found the seller's username on ARFCOM:



Kenpachi



https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/M60joe-/22-492417/#i5006132



No surprise, his fan boys in that thread are the same ones here playing like they don't know him and are experts on the subject of HK briefcases.



---



Filing the GB Fraud fraud complaint today whenever it unlocks (have to wait 30 days after sale.).......EDIT: FILED on 4/25 and faxed in the supporting documents. Also filed IC3.gov and USPS fraud reports.



---



Thanks to TDJAYAR for catching this: In the GB listing SELLER says, "I bought it new several years ago." Then in the Reddit thread above he says, "Got it from a guy on HK Pro a number of years ago who got it off GB from OTB Firearms in 2007." So it wasn't new then......



---

Finally, I posed this question on Page 10 to the supporters of the Seller (i.e. all my fault):



Originally Posted By delorean:

So to all of you that say I just should have done better research and the seller didn't do anything wrong........



What would you say if I relisted this thing on GB, with the SAME pictures, SAME title, SAME description = completely identical listing?? Fair or predatory?



And what happens if some sucker bites on it, then they see this thread? Buyer's fault and I'm stand up guy, or would I be a slimy POS?



It's a rhetorical question......I would be one slimy POS. View Quote



-----------------



UPDATE #4:



Seller entered the thread on page 11 last night, then I woke up to a text message.....



Seller is offering to send a personal check or PayPal F&F, then I can send case back "whenever". I took a screen shot and attached it to a reply through the GunBroker messenger (so it was documented since their fraud investigation is already rolling.) I don't want to commingle the money in my PayPal account nor violate their user agreement since it's gun related, so I said the check. He sat on my personal check for at least a week until it cleared, so informed him I would do the same; however, money order would be quicker and easier.



It's $38.51 on my UPS account to send this thing back with $2700 insurance, so if he doesn't care about the insurance, he can send me a prepaid label for UPS or USPS because I don't want that on me (hat tip to the EE rules here.) Then I'll submit whatever I have to to GB to show the sale was cancelled & refunded so the fraud investigation is over and he gets his final value fees returned to him.



I suppose I'll take a bunch of pics or video of this thing before I seal the box. I don't want any BS later saying I damaged it, used it, etc. I've already been accused of not communicating with him, leaving negative feedback before trying to return it, and a few other things in last night's Reddit thread (before he got called out on all of it and deleted his comments.) So, I'm still suspicious, but glad it's moving in the right direction. I'm not looking for an apology, I just want this to be over. Please keep it civil--I told him I wouldn't post anything else unless attacks and lies start up again and I need to defend myself. I'll post quick updates to first page as progress happens, then we'll shut her down when everybody is whole. I think we both learned a lot, as did a lot of people in this thread!



UPDATE #5:



Refund check received today as promised, and cashed. Case on the way back shortly via UPS.



UPDATE #6:



Check cleared, box dropped off at the UPS Store today and is on the way back. Ground, insured, and signature required because of the insured amount. In two days, this will hopefully be over........



UPDATE #7:



Delivered and signed for by seller two days ago......haven't heard anything, so I have to assume this is all over. I have been looking for a HK Operators briefcase for a while and came across what I thought was a nice one on GB. I recognized the seller as an active guy on Sturmgewehr and is a FFL07. (The case is not a NFA / AOW.....only the guns that go in it have to be.)The listing says it's a "HK MP5 Briefcase" in the title and "Like new Hofbauer MP5K Briefcase made in German" in the description. The pics show the "Hofbauer" and "Made in Germany" stamp in the case. I sent a "take a shot offer" for a fair amount for an authentic HK case that is like new, and seller accepts. He was traveling, and so was I, so I just asked if I could send a personal check which he didn't have a problem with as long as it waiting to clear.....no problem. He shipped it and it arrived last week.First thing I noticed when I pulled it out of the box is that the handle was cold and metal. All the ones I've ever seen in HK literature or other places have had plastic handles. I started poking around online and found a few websites about them, two of which had info about knock-offs. Phillips head screws in the handle vs. flat heads. The hinges and keys are US made vs. German (like the Germans would buy hardware from us??) The real ones have some tooling/mold marks inside that this one doesn't, and a few other small things that don't match up.I called HK in Columbus, GA to see if they ever produced one with a metal handle and was told they did not have any knowledge of that (and that a lot of people copy their stuff.) Apparently there was a place called Special Weapons that made a whole bunch of replicas years ago, and it looks like that's what I may have received.Before I spoke with HK, I had emailed the seller and politely asked if he knew this was a knock-off (or if he had any more info of where he got it). He says he's at Knob Creek with HK pros doesn't understand what the problem is. So after I spoke to the real HK pros at HK-US, I sent this through the GB-messenger:((The one pictured in this article is a fake--that's why the trim was flaking off.))Then I find this from 12/2015......he posts a WTB and knows there are FAKES: https://www.hkpro.com/forum/wanted-buy-hk-parts-accessories/229792-wtb-mp5k-briefcase.html Here he is trying to buy another one in 5/2018: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10601-hk-operational-briefcase/ That sale went bad and he posts how he was "trying to verify the manufacturer": http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10610-bad-deal-with-ivan-shapiro/ -------Since then I've sent two emails asking to return it, and no response. I also told him since he's ignoring me, I'm going to file a fraud complaint on GB and leave negative feedback.....no response. Either way, I can't do that until next Thursday since it has to be 30-60 days after the sale.I don't think I'm in the wrong here, so what say you? This is the first time I've had a deal on a firearm related item go bad. Maybe I was just lucky up until this point. GB has a $500 guarantee minus $100 deductible. So that only nets me $400 max if they find in my favor.Where else do I potentially go with this?I'm pissed, but not quite ready to go scorched earth on the guy.........this could easily be solved if he just took the thing back. I can resell it and get some of my money back, but it's definitely not worth the $2700 I paid for it.------------------------Thanks below to the guy who posted how the fakes have ARMS mounts in them. After a closer look, yes this one has and ARMS mount that fits flat against the top of the case. The release lever is mounted toward the rear of the case. It also has a brass deflector I'm told is not found in the originals. I highly doubt that a German firearm manufacturer imported ARMS mounts to install in their cases. This shooting case was NOT "made in Germany"On the HK produced ones, they have to legs that mount to the case, no deflector, and the release lever is mounted toward the front of the case. Here's the firing case on HK's website: https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/submachine-guns/mp5/mp5k/accessories.html?tx_z7attachmentshk_pi3%5Barticle%5D=1621&cHash=f9a6fb9ea5f68151571077976355108f Real One currently listed on HK's website (look at the handle and mount):Case received:Also, here's GB's user agreement and site rules about selling:--------Here's the seller making light of the whole situation on Reddit. It's "worth a chuckle" that he has a customer pissed off over a $2700 sale, and he brags about it on Reddit......yet wouldn't respond to my emails. Apparently he thinks you can use put whatever you want in there for SEO purposes and it doesn't matter......but this is under the Site Rules of GB:eMGunslinger100+ MG's9 points2 days agolevel 3WolfgangxZ8 points2 days agolevel 4eMGunslinger100+ MG's5 points2 days agolevel 3Pershing15E5 points1 day agolevel 4eMGunslinger100+ MG's0 points1 day agolevel 5Pershing15E3 points1 day agolevel 6eMGunslinger100+ MG's1 point1 day agoFiling a fraud complaint on GB tomorrow......will update with results.-----------------Found the seller's username on ARFCOM:No surprise, his fan boys in that thread are the same ones here playing like they don't know him and are experts on the subject of HK briefcases.---Filing the GB Fraud fraud complaint today whenever it unlocks (have to wait 30 days after sale.).......EDIT: FILED on 4/25 and faxed in the supporting documents. Also filed IC3.gov and USPS fraud reports.---Thanks to TDJAYAR for catching this: In the GB listing SELLER says, "I bought itseveral years ago." Then in the Reddit thread above he says, "Got it from a guy on HK Pro a number of years ago who got it off GB from OTB Firearms in 2007." So it wasn'tthen......---Finally, I posed this question on Page 10 to the supporters of the Seller (i.e. all my fault):Confirmed it's a rhetorical question, because none have answered it.-----------------Seller entered the thread on page 11 last night, then I woke up to a text message.....Seller is offering to send a personal check or PayPal F&F, then I can send case back "whenever". I took a screen shot and attached it to a reply through the GunBroker messenger (so it was documented since their fraud investigation is already rolling.) I don't want to commingle the money in my PayPal account nor violate their user agreement since it's gun related, so I said the check. He sat on my personal check for at least a week until it cleared, so informed him I would do the same; however, money order would be quicker and easier.It's $38.51 on my UPS account to send this thing back with $2700 insurance, so if he doesn't care about the insurance, he can send me a prepaid label for UPS or USPS because I don't want that on me (hat tip to the EE rules here.) Then I'll submit whatever I have to to GB to show the sale was cancelled & refunded so the fraud investigation is over and he gets his final value fees returned to him.I suppose I'll take a bunch of pics or video of this thing before I seal the box. I don't want any BS later saying I damaged it, used it, etc. I've already been accused of not communicating with him, leaving negative feedback before trying to return it, and a few other things in last night's Reddit thread (before he got called out on all of it and deleted his comments.) So, I'm still suspicious, but glad it's moving in the right direction. I'm not looking for an apology, I just want this to be over. Please keep it civil--I told him I wouldn't post anything else unless attacks and lies start up again and I need to defend myself. I'll post quick updates to first page as progress happens, then we'll shut her down when everybody is whole. I think we both learned a lot, as did a lot of people in this thread!Refund check received today as promised, and cashed. Case on the way back shortly via UPS.Check cleared, box dropped off at the UPS Store today and is on the way back. Ground, insured, and signature required because of the insured amount. In two days, this will hopefully be over........Delivered and signed for by seller two days ago......haven't heard anything, so I have to assume this is all over.