TONY JONES: Good evening, and welcome to Q&A. I'm Tony Jones. Answering your questions tonight: Indigenous sports broadcaster, long-time anti-violence campaigner, Charlie King; the Australian of the Year Rosie Batty; the Ambassador for Women and Girls, Natasha Stott Despoja; families counsellor Simon Santosha; and the Acting Victorian Police Commissioner Tim Cartwright. Please welcome our panel. Thank you. Now, remember, if you've got a live Twitter question, add @qanda to help us find it. Our first question tonight comes from Kay Schubach.

HOW TO DISPEL THE STIGMA?

KAY SCHUBACH: Thank you. I was in a violent, abusive relationship with a controlling but very charming and popular man and we lived in a prestigious neighbourhood. I'm an educated, independent woman and I had never experienced abuse before. When the violence started, I was too embarrassed and ashamed to seek help from my friends or the police until I was nearly strangled in my own home. Similarly, I was too afraid to face my abuser in court to get an AVO in place as he still had access to all areas of my life. So my question is: how do we dispel the social clichÃ¯Â¿Â½ that this doesn't happen in our nice homes? And how do we dispel the stigma that keeps women ashamed and silent?

TONY JONES: Rosie, I'm going to start with you?

ROSIE BATTY: I think when Luke got killed, which is just over 12 months ago, perhaps what resonated with everybody was that I do live in a nice house, I am an independent single woman, I'm educated, I'm professional, so in one fell swoop I dispelled most of the myths surrounding family violence and I guess that's why I would like to think I've been heard, is because if it can happen to me, it can happen to everybody, and I didn't have a history of violent relationships before that either, Kay. It was something that I didn't know how to handle when it first started to happen and I didn't wear bruises, I didn't get hospitalised and I didn't have broken bones, but he was extremely psychologically abusive and controlling, so I think your point is great, but that's where I hope that over the past 12 months, whilst this topic has very much come out from behind closed doors into a more public and open debate like tonight, we can start to understand how many people are affected because it is one in three, and it's one in three women across all socio-economic areas and backgrounds, all neighbourhoods, it's everywhere. It doesn't discriminate, and I'm sure that a lot of us here today are here to support that. Thank you.

TONY JONES: Rosie, Kay also asked about the stigma that keeps women silent and ashamed in these circumstances. I actually have the impression that you were not silent and ashamed actually in your case?

ROSE BATTY: No. Perhaps what I would - the shame squarely is with the perpetrator of violence. I think I've always been outspoken and one of the things I will say, though, is you can't always trust the response from the people that you need to turn to, to help you in a way that is non-judgmental and that is, again, something I would very much like to change in the short term because, although there are many very, very good policemen, it doesn't mean that every single policeman treats you with the respect that you should be treated and, again, when you go to court, there are many, many good judges and good magistrates, but there is an awful lot that, again, show the same judgment and criticism. So your journey is as tough going through that process as it is for the abuse that you've been subjected to, and that has to change.

TONY JONES: Let me just go back to our questioner, Kay. I mean, listening to this, does that resonate with you? I mean, you said your abuser was charming and a popular man. Did people find it hard to believe that you were being abused by such a person?

KAY SCHUBACH: I found it hard to believe. You know, I was very confused about the situation that I found myself in, and I had no terms of reference at all, and then I found myself, you know, running to a police station in a beautiful, leafy neighbourhood and it was so foreign.

TONY JONES: Did they believe you?

KAY SCHUBACH: Yes, they did. They were great. I found the police to be fantastic, but I was too afraid to go to court, as I said, because he - he was - we were still living together. He was still in my house. He still had the keys and he was also very audacious and so he would sack his counsel and represent himself in court, so I would have to face him and it was absolutely terrifying. Too terrifying for me to even consider.

TONY JONES: Natasha, I will bring you in. You've been listening to this, what are your thoughts?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Well, your story is not an uncommon one. As Rosie has pointed out, one in three women over the age of 15 have experienced some sort of physical assault, one in five sexual assault. It's shockingly, chillingly common in Australia, 21st century Australia and, Rosie, you've done more than most in a relatively short period of time to highlight that particular issue that this is not discriminatory; whether it's your postcode, your education. We know that there are some groups that are at a higher risk level than others - culturally and linguistically diverse communities, Indigenous communities, women with disabilities - but overall it doesn't discriminate but your comments, Tony, about stigma and taboo, we have to address it. We have to address so many community attitudes. It's not just the system that we can point to that is occasionally at fault, it is all of our attitudes that are quite ingrained. You know, 78% of people, when asked in the recent community attitudes survey, said that they didn't understand why women don't leave violent relationships. We still have high levels of people who believe that, you know, rape, for example, is, you know, as a result of an unstoppable, sexual urge by a man. So ingrained attitudes have a lot to do with it, hence the taboo, hence the stigma, that's why tonight, congratulations on having the conversation - a sustained public conversation - that tackles some of those stereotypes and, dare I say it, that inextricable link between gender inequality and violence against women in particular.

TONY JONES: Thank you. Let's hear from Tim Cartwright. You're obviously here representing the police and I'd just like to get your perspective on how difficult it is for women to break that silence and that shame when they are abused?

TIM CARTWRIGHT: Well, Kay's story is very typical, I've got to say. There are no boundaries in this. It is all classes and the concerning thing is there are lots of people who still don't report. We touched on a few - gay, lesbian relationships, Indigenous people, people who have recently arrived in the country, particularly from countries where the authorities aren't respected - all of those people underreport, as well as our own, everyday people in the community. You know, I look across to New Zealand, Victoria Police dealt with 65,000 incidences last year, that's more than doubled in 10 years. New Zealand is at 100,000 with a similar population. That would suggest to me there is still an enormous way to go before women feel confident to come forward early on to report to police, to report to authorities, confident that they will get the support, confident that we'd be successful in protecting them.

TONY JONES: Let's here from Simon. Simon, you mostly work with men, well, exclusively, I think. It's your passion to work with men in these circumstances? I don't know if it is exclusively but--

SIMON SANTOSHA: I say I help men understand themselves and women. I help women understand men and couples understand the nature of their relationship to be able to take responsibility. But I just wanted to touch on your point and Natasha's point that women don't leave. What's been described - violence is very complex. Very complex. I liken it to an apple; an apple but there is Golden Delicious, Granny Smith, all different types of apples. Violence, we think we're talking the same thing but we're talking very different things sometimes. What's being spoken about here is what we know in the profession. There's a particular type of really horrible violence called intimate partner terrorism and we call it intimate partner terrorism because that is what it's like for the victim. They're held hostage. Their self-esteem gets eroded to such a point that they question everything. If we were to do a diagnosis of - a mental health diagnosis of that cohort of men, we would come up with diagnoses of sociopath, narcissist, borderline personality or psychopath. There's empathy deficits there and it is a very different type of violence that I see. I don't work in the pointy end in behaviour change, domestic violence programs like a lot of my colleagues who do fantastic work with that cohort of men. I work with couples trying to negotiate relationships. But when there is mental health issues, when there is a whole lot of, say, childhood sexual abuse, childhood physical abuse, post traumatic stress disorder, chronic depression, chronic anxiety--

TONY JONES: Simon, some of these issues we're going to come to later.

SIMON SANTOSHA: Alright.

TONY JONES: So just I'll get you just to finish your point, though.

SIMON SANTOSHA: The point is women don't leave because they lose their sense of self. They lose their integrity and there is nothing left, and they don't reach out because there is this who is going to believe them? Because in that cohort of men, they present really nice. They have the language and they're able to pretend that nothing is happening.

TONY JONES: OK.

SIMON SANTOSHA: So the women's voices aren't heard.

TONY JONES: Sorry to interrupt you. I'm going to come to our other panellist Charlie King in a minute. Our next question is a video. It's from Justin Tolley in Nightcliff, Northern Territory.

A ROLE FOR SPORTS CLUBS

JUSTIN TOLLEY: At the beginning of last year I was involved in a domestic violence incident with my then partner. It had a catastrophic impact on her, our family, our friends and our football club community, which is pretty much one big family. I was jailed for this incident for three months and it was a massive turning point in my life. As part of the domestic violence campaign in place at the Nightcliff Football Club, you are required to speak to everyone collectively and see how it has affected them. I believe that this is a step in the right direction and one that many more sporting clubs can embrace across the nation in changing how we deal with what has gone on in silence for far too long. What do you think?

TONY JONES: Yeah, I'll start with Charlie King. I'm sure you know Justin Tolley, since he's a well known footballer in the Northern Territory. Give us your perspective?

CHARLIE KING: Yeah, indeed I do and, Kay, it's a common story, the embarrassment you feel, and I just want to say this that there is silence and embarrassment on the part of men as well and those of you who were watching that video then will note that he had to read the notes. He just couldn't do it. He couldn't - he had a dozen goes at doing it and he just couldn't talk about the matter. He was encouraged by his club to talk to his team mates. They put them in a room together, the whole team. There was about 60 players in the room and it included the women's team as well and he had to stand before the team and tell them what happened. He had to give them the details about what happened and what it did, what I found amazing about it, normally in a football situation like that, players would walk up to him and shake his hand and pat him on the back and say, 'It's going to be OK.' In this case they didn't. They hugged him and they held him. He cried and he walked out of the room but what they got out of that was there is a message in this for men. They have got to talk about this. They've got to be able to stand up and talk about it, because as long as the silence stays there, this matter never gets addressed. So we want to do lots of work with the sporting clubs about that, have the conversation about it. I'm glad we're having it tonight, Kay.

TONY JONES: Justin Tolley's case was widely reported in the Northern Territory at least and he actually makes the point that in his case drugs and alcohol were a big factor in this. I mean, is that something that you've seen commonly?

CHARLIE KING: Yeah and it builds up. I mean it just starts and it builds up and that was a - that case just came out of the blue. He said that himself. It just happened out of the blue and it got to a point where he couldn't cope with it anymore and he and his partner both just exploded on the one night and it just turned into that and it was a horrible situation but we see it too often and there's just far too much of it, Tony.

TONY JONES: Rosie, what do you think listening to that guy and the sort of shame in his voice and what are you hearing?

ROSE BATTY: Look, I think men holding other men accountable for behaviour that is unacceptable must be a really powerful thing because it is - it is about them having to face their actions and I guess if they, you know, are able to see the damage that they've done, the damage that they continue to do and how many people are widely affected, putting it out there, articulating it is so much - is so much better than trying to contain things. You can't. So, you know, it is - this journey is about men helping men change and men stepping up and saying, 'Mate, you can't keep doing this. This isn't acceptable. This is not being a man. This is not good behaviour and we no longer will turn a blind eye, turn the other way and let you carry on. We are going to make you accountable,' and hopefully, you know, that's in a way that is safe for them to do so. It's got to be safe for them, too, to disclose, because it is about change, it is about empowering people to change.

TONY JONES: I'll bring Tim Cartwright into this. Does that change include male policemen and the way they deal with these kinds of issues?

TIM CARTWRIGHT: Absolutely. Absolutely. In that way we are like the rest of the community, we have our own cultural issues, we actually have our own challenges with getting our people to recognise the relationships, what a good relationship looks like, what a role model looks like. Listening to Justin there, one of the things that struck me is he spoke to all his fellow sports people and spoke to people in the club, but for every one of those people, this he would have gone home and spoken to their kids and this is one of the major challenges, so while we talk about the cultures that adults portray, one of the biggest challenges is if we are going to break the cycle, we need to actually get in front of the kids and say, 'This is what a healthy relationship looks like. This is what it is to be a man in this community.' So, yes, we have the same problems as everyone else. We're working on them and we'll get better but we still have a long way to go.

TONY JONES: Simon, is it hard to get men who've committed violence against their partners to admit what they've done, to be open and honest about it and to tell other people and to seek help?

SIMON SANTOSHA: It depends which cohort of men you are talking about. The men working in the behaviour change programs, there's a whole process for that. The guys that I see that mightn't have DVOs on them - some do, some don't - who come in, it's about engaging them in ways they will engage and stay engaged and walking a journey with them in helping them take full responsibility for what they do. A lot of men - we don't see what we do as violence. Say a guy that lost his kids through separation or divorce screams, 'Give me my kids,' with a few swear words down the phone. We know that, from the legislation, that's domestic violence. For a man, he doesn't see that way. So we take him on this journey to help him see what he is doing and take full responsibility. It is not apparent, but it's a journey and, yes, they do, they do take full ownership. Some do, some don't and it's that stage of change. Are they ready for change? Are they willing to accept change?

TONY JONES: Natasha, are you encouraged to hear that or tell me what you are thinking?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Look, well, my organisation, Our Watch, and there are many others in this space, we're in the behavioural and attitudinal change business. We're focused on primary prevention; stopping violence before it occurs, which is really the feature of this debate.

TONY JONES: The evidence is that things are getting worse. That's the problem?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Well, it' interesting. I'm going to give you some good news and that is violence is preventable but we need to have the resources and the willpower and the political willpower to invest in organisations that provide that primary prevention, as well as those necessities of enforcement, intervention - whether it's services - and I can see there are people in the audience tonight who are on the frontline and so we can't be cutting their services either but we know everything everyone has just said - holding perpetrators to account is essential and our national action plan in Australia recognises that fact, but we do have to change behaviour and attitudes. We have to ensure that that happens and we know we can do it, because violence against women, although it's an epidemic across the world and it's an emergency, I believe, in Australia, we know one thing, that there are different community, cultural, political and economic constructs that either condone or reduce this violence. So we can do it. So when you say, you know, how do I feel about these comments, well, of course it's all part of the spectrum. Acknowledgement and accountability by perpetrators, changing behaviour, and, yes, young people. Tim, you're so right. We know that unfortunately from some of those attitude surveys young people actually have more violent supportive attitudes when it comes to violence, particularly against women, than older people, and I'd love to think that the kids are listening to me but I know they're not, so role models through sport and other areas, particularly when it comes to boys and men, but women and girls as well, it's essential.

TONY JONES: Well, there are subtleties to what domestic violence actually means. Let's go to an issue that's already come up tonight. The next question is from Nicky Davis.

WHY WOMEN STAY

NICKY DAVIS: Most people are confused or even suspicious about why victims stay in an abusive marriage but often victims are made to doubt their own ability to judge the situation or even recognise it as abusive. At the same time, your self-worth is undermined so you believe you deserve to be mistreated and you can become a virtual prisoner, isolated from anyone who will support you. What is Rosie's experience?

TONY JONES: Straight to you, Rosie?

ROSE BATTY: I think your self-worth and self-esteem can be affected very quickly. I think quite often somebody can enter into your life, maybe when you are not at your best emotionally, so you may be a little bit more vulnerable. Somehow you find yourself in a relationship, like I did with Greg, and very quickly, you know, violence escalates, as you probably know, and it doesn't start off at the pointy end. It starts off subtly.

TONY JONES: I can remember, if I can interrupt you just for a moment - I can remember you saying that every time you relaxed your boundaries with Greg, that you ended up paying for it?

ROSE BATTY: Yeah, I did. As a single parent, you know, it's really great sometimes to have someone to help you fix a tap or screw something that's broken and, you know, just help you around the place. I've got a two acre property and there was always something that needed to be done. I tried to keep on top of it but just sometimes I needed a bit of help and Greg was always really good to help. He was really practical and he enjoyed it and I loved that Luke could see him doing that with me because, again, I wanted him to have those skills like his dad as well. But every time I relaxed those boundaries, there would be some paranoid or some abusive incident that would come up that where I'd have to realise that, you know what, I can't afford to be nice to Greg, as much as I want to be, as much as I want to be friendly, as much as I want to show Luke that I can - you know, we can be friendly together. But I think that...

TONY JONES: Because he'd start to undermine your character in the way that the questioner was suggesting actually, from what I've read.

ROSE BATTY: Yeah, you know, dominating, making you feel that you're not a fit mother, he'd done all of those things. I was just really, really lucky, it was my house. I never lived with Greg. I had the job, so I had the - a lot of advantages. I can't imagine what my life would have been like if it had been the other way around. So for me, I was always in the more empowered position and I guess that was the challenge for Greg. What could he do every now and again to just, you know, get to me? And he knew which buttons to press and it could be about dropping Luke off and changing the goal posts, not coming to pick him up when he said, bringing him back earlier than I thought. Making me go to St Kilda rather than picking him - whatever he could do to power and control. They seem little and insignificant things but it's always somehow it's undermining you and I would say, you know, it took me - it has taken me a long time to feel so strong and, you know, I guess the saddest thing was when we came back from the UK in January last year, I said to my friends, 'I have never felt so strong. I'm really good and I'm not going to have the same shit year as I had last year.' So, you know, clearly what I will say is Greg knew that I'd finally got to the point where he no longer had control over me, because I had built myself up emotionally to that point where all his power and control no longer could take effect and so when we say, 'Why doesn't she leave?', sometimes it's because that is the highest point of risk to be killed or injured and sometimes when you're in that type of relationship, all I can say is you have a fear that you can't really explain but it's a dread and it's a fear of what could happen next. So quite often you stay in the situation you know because by taking out an AVO it's going to piss him off. By taking him to court, making a statement to the police, it's going to piss him off and you don't know what you're going to exacerbate and what's going to come out of that. So you're right. We don't complain to the police. We put up with a lot because when you do, it's because you've got to the point where you have no other choice and you don't know what's going to happen next and there is that total dread. For me, Greg didn't do anything and I thought, 'Oh, gosh, I should have done this years ago.' What I didn't know, months later, he did the worst thing.

TONY JONES: Rosie, we'll actually come back through some related questions and, indeed, you made a point, I think, that you were lucky enough, in a sense, to have your own house. Let's go to a video from someone who does not, Sharon Brennan in Dalby, Queensland.

NEED SUPPORT TO LEAVE

SHARON BRENNAN: I live in rural Queensland. When I was subjected to domestic violence, I would always leave my husband, but then I would always go back to him. There was no support service available to help me stay away from him for good. There's lots of support services available for crisis care and to help a woman leave but there is nothing available to help you stay away from him for good. My question for the panel is why are there no government-funded support services that are readily available to help the survivors of domestic violence and ensure that we don't go back to our violent partners?

TONY JONES: Tim Cartwright, let me bring you in first on that. It is a tough one, I know, for you to answer as an official of the Victorian Government.

TIM CARTWRIGHT: It's a very tough one for me to answer.

TONY JONES: But still it's a serious issue.

TIM CARTWRIGHT: It is a serious issue. I won't talk about government policies but what I will reflect on is what Sharon said. We experience the same frustration, quite often, in remote communities. Preferably we would get Sharon's husband away, rather than have Sharon herself move out. It doesn't always happen but it is - I mean, our primary purpose there is to protect women like Sharon. When you don't have access to the support services, when you don't have alternative accommodation, it's very tough for the people on the ground to get to the ultimate aim, which is to protect her, to protect the victim.

TONY JONES: Natasha?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Look, I was going to agree particularly Tim with your point that you want to get the perpetrators out, you want to hold them accountable so we don't - you know and a lot of that theory and practice has shifted over a number of decades but, understandably, there are still going to be circumstances where you need that intervening immediate crisis support, but, yes, long-term support as well. I think this also goes to the issue, Tony, of cost, cost to the community, the fact that, you know, governments do need to inject more money and not just governments, other entities, workplaces, corporates, education institutions need to invest, yes, in the primary prevention but other spaces as well.

TONY JONES: There needs to be a sort of cost benefit analysis of what it actually means, because the immense cost of domestic violence, it's in the, what, more than ten billion a year?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: $13.6 billion per annum, projected to be $15.6 billion by 2021/22. I mean when you start to look at it, the magnitude of the money - you know, if we dropped the statistics by 10% in a year, we would drop that cost to the taxpayer of $1.6 billion, so I plea to governments on an economic ground, apart from the horrific social and personal costs, but, indeed, these are interventions that are required as well, as well as, and I know I'm going to keep going back to it, changing minds, attitudes, behaviour, so that we stop this violence before it begins.

TONY JONES: Charlie King, listening to that woman from regional Queensland, from Dalby, it must sort of ring a few bells for you. I mean, Indigenous communities in the Northern Territory, resources are very thin on the ground?

CHARLIE KING: Absolutely and, Natasha, your point before about having the will to do something about it, that's what's missing in all of this. I think there has to be will on government to do something about this, will to commit the funding to do it. Dalby is only a small town. There's many, many small towns in the Northern Territory where Indigenous women live. There is nowhere for them to go anyway, even if they wanted to leave home. There's no place to go them, so it's even more difficult for them and we know those awful stats out in those communities. Indigenous women five times more likely to be physically abused, three times more likely to be sexually abused and over 30 times more likely to be hospitalised and we've seen it. In fact, the demands are so great for women being placed in hospitals in those remote communities that the Ambulance Services now are finding it really difficult to provide the services they're actually funded to do, because they're spending all of their time transporting people that have been the victims of family violence. So there has to be a commitment to come up with better support services and we all need to have the conversation about what that looks like because one size doesn't fit all. We need to look at it right across Australia, I think.

TONY JONES: We've got lots of questions and, indeed, here is one from the CEO of Domestic Violence Victoria, Fiona McCormack, who is here with us.

HIGH RISKS OF LEAVING

FIONA MCCORMACK: We often hear, 'Why doesn't she just leave?' And yet we know, as you were saying earlier, Rosie, that this is a time when women and children are at most risk, violence escalates and we can even see family violence-related homicides. It is a question to all the panel. I'm interested to know what you think we could do to support women to keep them safe when they end relationships?

TONY JONES: I will start with Simon because we haven't heard from you in the last question or so.

SIMON SANTOSHA: The best thing we can do and I'm - this is why I do the work that I do - if we want to protect women and children from harm, we engage the blokes. We engage the blokes early in ways they will engage and stay engaged. As we know, I work a lot with separated men and separated men, we know there's high incidence of domestic violence increases, high rates of suicide, high rates of trauma during that very vulnerable time. Close to 70% of women separate or initiate the separation and a lot of guys, they don't cope. They don't have the skills to cope and, left on their own, sometimes their brain goes into what we call irrational cognitive thought and they can act on those irrational cognitive thoughts. So sitting with the bloke saying, 'Mate, what do you want? What are you doing? You tell me you want to see your kids so on a handover, when you tell your ex-partner what you really think of her, is that really getting you what you want? Now let's maybe bring her into the picture imaginatively on the couch, if she was there, how would she perceive your behaviour?' And then we can start a conversation and start to move him forward and start to help him process his grief, loss, anger, sense of powerlessness, helplessness over here. While there is a framework that says men have the patriarchal control, a lot of men who have been left feel powerless. Yes, there's frameworks that say he's powerful but that man feels he's powerless and the left protection we can give women and children is to help him understand he has choices. He has choices to escalate his behaviour, or he has choices to take full responsibility for his behaviour and form a respectful co-parenting relationship with his co-parent for the sake of his children. And bringing the children into the picture and the kind of father that may be how he got fathered, the type of father he thought he would be and the type of father he is and, for a lot of guys, the change moment - that stage of change moment is when they've realised they are fathering how they were fathered and they never wanted to set out like that. They wanted to be better fathers. So, we need to work with the women. I'm very, very strong about that. But to protect the women, we need to work with the blokes.

TONY JONES: A very brief answer to this but what's happened to the services dealing with men in these circumstances? We were talking about funding earlier and I'm just interested to know?

SIMON SANTOSHA: Yep. In the early prevention intervention side of things, no one knows about this but in 1996 to 2011 there was a groundbreaking program called The Men of Family Relationship Program. It was designed to connect with men where men are at in blokey type ways, in football club, in community centres, to run parenting programs for new dads, to connect with blokes who are going through separation or divorce. In 2011/2012 it got rolled into a general family program and the emphasis on men got lost. So there has been close to 30 or 40% reduction in those early intervention prevention services. Men don't set out to be violent. Often it's a progression. There's a series of events that happen and unless we can get to them early and help them change the way they perceive the situation, then terrible things can happen. So those services and, along with the behaviour changes...

TONY JONES: OK, Simon, I'm going to - once again, I'm going to cut you a bit short there. You can come back to some of these issues.

SIMON SANTOSHA: OK.

TONY JONES: I want to hear Rosie Batty on the question that was asked and reflecting on what Simon's just been saying.

ROSE BATTY: So the question, Fiona, why doesn't she leave? Well, what I want to say is probably don't want to. You know, there are many reasons why somebody doesn't leave a relationship and what they - they don't want to leave. They just want the violence to stop. Why would you want to leave your home, your family, you know, the dreams that you had? You've built a home, you've got, you know, the family that you wanted to have. You know and nobody wants to leave something that they've built and tried to build and the dream that - and leave the dream that they had. So it's hard for anyone to extricate themselves out of any relationship over a long time, you know.

TONY JONES: Well, particularly when - I will just sort of interrupt there because I think Fiona's question went to - in fact, I'll go back to Fiona, because I know your question went to the point of how dangerous it is at that point when someone does decide to leave? Just want to...

FIONA MCCORMACK: Yeah, Rosie, it's more what can we do?

ROSE BATTY: Yeah.

FIONA MCCORMACK: And I'm looking at innovation and I hear your point about counselling for men, but we've had 14 women murdered in Australia - and it's not even the end of February - this year. That's twice the national average. So I'm thinking what can we do, as a system, better to protect women around that time.

ROSIE BATTY: That's my point is that you don't want to leave, either out of fear or you don't want to leave because you don't want to leave your home. You want the violence to stop. What we would really want are effective programs for men to be given that opportunity to change their behaviour and I think that's where it comes to so much is perpetrator intervention programs. It's not the only answer but that is a key step.

TONY JONES: I will just hear from Tim on that? What are your thoughts?

TIM CARTWRIGHT: Fiona, I was just thinking of a simple thing and you're talking about innovation, but this isn't innovation. A lot of this is cultural and a lot of this we hear from the people in the audience, the first thing we need to do is acknowledge and believe the woman. So you're talking about right down the track. But time and again I hear from women in these situations who say, 'Well, all I need - first thing I needed to do was hear someone believe me', and for us that's usually the policeman or the policewoman who attends that night - usually it's at night - believe them but then that's something that we can all do. I think one of the things that we need to do as a community is to support women in these situations, as friends, as family, as leaders in the community and this is part of that cultural change. If we all stand up and say, no, this is not the way we want this community to be, and we believe in the women who come to us and report these crimes, then we will have made a big difference.

TONY JONES: OK, we're got another video question. This one is from Virginia Watson in Shoalhaven Heads, New South Wales.

HOW TO KEEP WOMEN & KIDS SAFE

VIRGINIA WATSON: I'm a domestic violence support worker on the south coast of New South Wales. I have women come to me and look me in the eye and say, 'It is only a matter of time before he kills me'. My question to the panel tonight is: How can we keep women and children safe from violent repeat offenders, when current sentencing trends don't seem to deter?

TONY JONES: Natasha, can I start with you?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Well, this relates also to Fiona's question as well. And again, Tim, you're right on changing attitudes, but it's that combination of enforcement, as well as cultural and community change. We have to have effective AVOs, we have to have shared practice and evidence among the jurisdictions. We need to share information so that people don't go from one jurisdiction to the next and escape, you know, or have impunity. We need to ensure that women feel free to speak up, that policemen and women will believe her, that bystanders will understand that there is a role for intervention, as well as believing but changing attitudes. We need to ensure that the courts and the judiciary understand that this is a national emergency and that we need to enforce legislation and policy as it exists or, indeed, change it - and this goes to the question - change it where it is failing, and we've seen changes in recent times to family law, both negative changes in 2006 - I remember it well, in a former life - and 2012 we've seen changes to family law that now are starting to re-balance that sense of putting more weight on protecting and not harming children and mothers in most instances, but women, even if it's at the expense of the so-called meaningful relationship with both parents. So there are legal, judicial enforcement, a range of changes but community as well.

TONY JONES: Well, let me actually hear from Tim Cartwright. Is it actually frustrating for the police, the way the courts deal with matters like this and governments, for that matter?

TIM CARTWRIGHT: There is a whole lot of frustrations for police, just as there are for the victims in this, but one of the things is just the nature of the federation is that the court orders don't transfer automatically. So if someone is a victim of a family violence incident today in New South Wales and they cross across the border tomorrow into Victoria, the people on the ground, the men and women who are there to protect the victim, can't get access to that information easily. The systems that are in place to register that order require the woman to go into court, to actually manually enter it. It is an archaic system. So that is a great frustration for us. We don't have access to mental health information. We don't have access to alcohol information, we don't have all sorts of information which might help us, on the ground, protect the woman or, at least, understand the situation and understand the risk that we are seeing.

TONY JONES: OK. We've actually got another question that relates to this. I'll go straight to it. It's from Nicole Ryan. We'll hear from the other panellists on this. Nicole?

AVO'S DON'T WORK

NICOLE RYAN: As someone who has survived over 15 years of living with domestic violence, I would like to ask the panel a question based on what I have experienced. The police in my area seem to be stepping up their efforts against domestic violence but the court system is lagging behind. In my case, my ex-partner breached his orders over and over again, each time still managing to walk out of court leaving us vulnerable. How are me and my children able to rely on a system that is meant to protect us?

TONY JONES: Rosie, I will come to you. I think it's fair to say that system let you down rather horribly?

ROSE BATTY: Look, I think there were a lot of factors in my situation and I don't know that I blame the system entirely but I think that the system can greatly improve. And, as we say, we work a lot in silos and if there is some kind of coordinated approach, where a continuum of violence was monitored and looked at, that would be a great help. I think - you know, I have great faith in our police force in Victoria. I can see the improvements. I can see the transparency, their keen desire to continue to improve and evolve and their passion for family violence and so that huge organisation that seeks to do better, I just hope that passes through into the court process.

I understand there is quite a lot of revision of what's happening in courts right now, and I do think you will see some dramatic changes and improvements but currently, you know, a breach is a breach. If we let - if we don't put any great weight onto it being a crime, what is the point?

TONY JONES: Rosie, in a way it's bringing you back to the story you didn't finish earlier, because you told us how you went on a holiday with Luke and when you came back, in fact, by the time you got back, there were a whole lot of things happen that you didn't know about.

ROSE BATTY: Yeah.

TONY JONES: Greg had four warrants for his arrest. He threatened someone - he'd threatened to kill someone. He'd been charged with looking at child pornography. All of these things - all of these were red flags. No one told you about it, so when he turned up at that sports ground, you simply didn't know.

ROSE BATTY: At this point, the way that we handle domestic violence, family violence as I understand it, no-one is looking for red flags. They are called out for individual instances where you go and make a statement and then you've got your court appearance and then they don't turn up at court, so that gets adjourned and so it is an ongoing circus that, you know, for myself, I didn't realise people didn't turn up at court. I had never been involved with court before so I assumed everyone turned up. What you begin to realise is the court system is - you know, people don't turn up all the time so then it becomes normalised and then your case becomes stale so then all of a sudden your case is not that urgent because he hasn't done anything in the last couple of months so he is not likely to. You know, so there is that incorrect assumption that makes you even safer. Well, violence is a continuum. Without intervention, it will always escalate and get worse, always.

TONY JONES: I'm sorry. Well, Simon wants to get in and I just want to quickly come to Tim first. Now, all of these things that happened, should they not have been passed on to the woman - in fact, to the family most at risk?

TIM CARTWRIGHT: Well, could I first come back to the point is we need to assess the risk ourselves, whether we communicate with the woman or not, we need to communicate the risk and we need to understand all of those factors. Rosie has had this conversation with us before. We didn't get it right. We will improve. We continue to improve but it is a really tricky situation. Sometimes legislation will prevent us passing on that information.

TONY JONES: Privacy legislation, is that what...

TIM CARTWRIGHT: Maybe privacy legislation, sometimes health legislation, sometimes legislation that is even designed to protect the woman will backfire and not allow us to communicate. But regardless of that, there is nothing that would stop us communicating the risk to the victim. So we should be saying to the victim, 'This is what we assess', and we should be picking up those risk factors. We are better at it now in Victoria, we are much better, but we haven't always got it right in the past and I'm sure we will make mistakes again in the future. This is a very complex problem. We know that Victoria, 65,000 incidents last year. We've probably got another 40 or 50,000 that aren't report.

TONY JONES: OK, Simon, a quick response. We've got to move onto other questions.

SIMON SANTOSHA: Just on the Gold Coast, we have what's called an integrated response. So when someone comes to the attention of domestic violence and there has been repeated breaches and that person is doing a mandated program, then everybody is informed - the police, the child protection, mental health. Everyone gets together. It's quite a - I think it's only one of two integrated models, where all different service agencies actually do talk to each other to protect women from misinformation for that important information that should have been passed on, but wasn't.

TONY JONES: Thank you, Simon. Our next question is a video. It's from Megan Hale in Mildura in Victoria.

ENTRENCHED MISOGYNY

MEGAN HALE: Hi, I'm 19. I've been sexualised by men my whole life. I do not feel safe when I am alone in public and my experiences have taught me that boys my age feel entitled to my body. I do not feel equal to men in Australian society at all. Can the men on the panel acknowledge that there is a lot of entrenched misogyny in Australia and what are they going to do to get other men to take gender inequality and male violence seriously?

TONY JONES: OK, Megan asked - thank you. Megan asked if we'd start with the men. I will start with Charlie King.

CHARLIE KING: Yes, through the domestic violence action plans that we're trying to put in place, we are encouraging men to deal with all of those issues, to be able to understand all of those issues and written into those...

TONY JONES: Do you think there is entrenched misogyny?

CHARLIE KING: Oh, yeah, I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is but I think we need to have that discussion with men, and so we develop these domestic violence action plans with sporting clubs to get men to be part of the discussion, so hopefully when we push that further on, men will get to learn more about this, you know. I think that's the problem, men just don't understand this, I don't think.

TONY JONES: Tim?

TIM CARTWRIGHT: Absolutely there is entrenched misogyny and sometimes it's subtle and when it's subtle, that is the greatest challenge because men often don't realise what it is they're doing. They don't realise they're undervaluing women. They don't realise they're treating women as property or some way of reflecting their status. So sometimes it's difficult to change those perceptions when men don't understand it. So that's one of the reasons I think we're here tonight. It's one of the opportunities we have.

TONY JONES: Simon?

SIMON SANTOSHA: I'm very passionate about this subject. I've got a history of working with sexually abused kids and teenagers and I was the first male in 18 years that Family Planning Queensland had to go into schools to deliver healthy sexuality education, and I still go into schools to work with the young men about respectful relationships, how do you negotiate consent and pornography and one of the biggest dangers we now face is our mobile phones. They are 12-year-olds with Internet connectivity can type in Google pictures. Now there is a big movie out at the moment that everyone is raving about. You type 'bondage' into Google pictures, see what comes up. 12-, 13-, 14-, 15-year-olds who are still developing their sexual identity, their cognitive pathways, are watching these images and it is shaping what they perceive women want and no-one is telling them otherwise. Where are the parents? Where are the fathers? When I work with Family Planning, the organisation was very big about parents sitting down and using education the opportunities like the movie that's out at the moment, Fifty Shades, and use that as a learning and teaching opportunity for healthy relationships. If it doesn't start with us, the parents, all they've got is the mobile phone and Internet pornography to get their ideas on how to treat women, and that's frightening. That really is frightening.

TONY JONES: Natasha?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Yeah. I will start with that last point. Fifty Shades of Grey has done us no favours, I can tell you that. And that's just not only a literature review, just quietly.

ROSE BATTY: Look, I'm just glad I didn't say that was my favourite film.

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: There are key things here. International evidence tells us very clearly there are two key pre-determinates when it comes to the issue of violence against women, gendered violence. We know one of them is gender stereotyping and those rigid gender roles that probably do men and women no favours and, secondly, inequality; the economic, social, political inequality that exists in our societies. Political inequality, yep, I could talk about that. I know to this...

TONY JONES: Please don't.

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: No. But what we do need, whether it's healthy, respectful relationships education, whether it's role models that are not the hyper-masculine men on the one hand. We need strong, powerful female role models. Yes, I knew that when I got into Parliament 20 years ago. I understood it the other - you know, two years ago when my daughter, who is now six, didn't understand when Kevin Rudd became Prime Minister after Julia Gillard because she thought boys couldn't be Prime Ministers. So we have to remember that, Tony, role models make a difference. Respectful education makes a difference. And it's not only the parents. It's every sector. Workforce, it's corporate and it's getting to the education system, as everyone has said. And, you know, you wonder about gender inequality. This is why you've had feedback on the panel tonight because it matters how we're reflected and represented in society. That's why. That's why, you know, we get upset about being in the minority.

SIMON SANTOSHA: Can I just quickly add...

TONY JONES: You can, very briefly.

SIMON SANTOSHA: When I go into schools and I say to the young Year 11 and 12 boys, 'A man needs to be what?' And then I brainstorm the answers, a man needs to be tough and a man needs to be strong, a man needs to be provider. You can't show feelings and you have to be in control. And I have a different version. A man can be flexible. That's a rigid stereotype. And I help them understand that a man can feel, a man can feel pain, a man can take responsibility, a man can cry and that's still a very manly thing to do, and we need to look at the messages that we get from the media, from our own modelling, from our own parenting, and start to do that generational change.

TONY JONES: And, of course, of course, simply make the point that when we are having a discussion like this, it is very good to hear from men because they are a key part of the problem and that's why we are doing this. Our next question is from Arman Abrahimzadeh.

TACKLING THE ROOT CAUSE OF VIOLENCE

ARMAN ABRAHIMZADEH: In March 2010, my mother was murdered by my father at the Adelaide Convention Centre in front of about 300 people. Prior to this incident, my mother, my sisters and I were living in a volatile and abusive environment. I believe her murder was preventable, and that prevention work is essential to eliminating family violence. It tackles the root causes of violence, not the consequences, as many families, just like my family, have experienced. I'm an extremely proud White Ribbon ambassador and I believe in and support the campaign, and my question to the panel is: how do you see the future of violence prevention strategies that particularly target men?

TONY JONES: OK, I'll start with Charlie.

CHARLIE KING: Well, it is a tough question to have to deal with, but there is no doubt that we just have to have a conversation with men, you know. White Ribbon does that. There are other programs that do it as well, but we have to bring men to the table. Men find this really difficult to talk about. It is not an issue that - we've mentioned this already. It's not an issue that they are comfortable talking about, but we've got to get them to talk about it. We need men's groups to meet with other men to encourage them to actually talk about this issue and I can't see any other way that we can do this, other than getting men together to talk about this and make them understand what is happening out there. Because I'm convinced men don't know the damage that is happening out there. In fact, I know that. I've spoken to men many times about this and I say here are the statistics. This is what's happening in our country and the old Indigenous men that I've spoken to over the years would look at me and say, 'No more. No more. We have to stop this,' you know and they feel that. But how do we actually do that? So we have the conversation and then we have to start planning a way in which we could do that. There is so much to be done in this space and I'm sorry that you've gone through, Arman, what you have.

TONY JONES: Can I go back to you, Arman, just listening to what you were saying, do you believe there were things that could or should have been done to make sure that...

ARMAN ABRAHIMZADEH: Oh, yes. We were let down by the system.

TONY JONES: Yeah. Tell us what briefly?

ARMAN ABRAHIMZADEH: Well, my father was flagged. He was a wanted man. We went to court and he was never caught, even though there was assault and threats that were reported to the police. I mean there was a ministerial inquiry into my mother's death. There was a coronial inquest into her death and all these failings came out but, unfortunately, it is too late for us. But if something can be improved or changed, then we would like to see that.

TONY JONES: Can I just ask, it's a very personal question, but do you have any idea what was going on in his head? Have you ever been able to - would you even consider sitting down and talking to him about it? I know he is in jail?

ARMAN ABRAHIMZADEH: I would like to give him a piece of my mind, yeah.

TONY JONES: Yeah. Rosie, I've got to ask what went through your mind when you were listening to that story?

ROSE BATTY: I think I would do anything to have Luke back, but I'm really pleased that Greg died. When I say that, I think it would be a very different journey for me to go through a criminal trial and all of the pressures that I'm sure you've had to go through. It's been bad enough what I've had to go through but to have to deal with Greg doing what he did, and being still alive would be different for me, I know. There's so many other tragic deaths and you, you know, you can't understand how they could ever get to that point. But one of the things I will say is, you know, the police do a very good job a lot of the time, but they are let down, too, by the mental health interventions that are really non-existent, are very, very limited. They don't look at an incidence of violence through the lens of family violence. They're really not invested in any kind of prevention or treatment. They are really just a tick in the box exercise and out they go on the street again because they can't - they haven't got the facilities and they haven't got the support to actually seriously help someone and what I found very distressing with my coronial inquest is, you know, I knew Greg had a mental illness. Mental illness isn't the cause of violence but it certainly is something that needs treatment and, unfortunately, he didn't have that intervention. So, you know, how he arrived at what he did was not the man five years earlier, so it's really hard to make sense of what they did, but I do think that, you know, if the red flags are there, we have to have the interventions because otherwise they're on a path of destruction and you look back later and you go, 'You know what, that was a red flag. That was a red flag. That was a red flag.' I've got all the red flags and I didn't - nobody really understood the severity of the path that Greg was heading down, either.

TONY JONES: Natasha, I will bring you in on the last part of the question, which is the future of violence preventative strategies.

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Primary prevention, absolutely. I just want to acknowledge this family and the situation in South Australia. You have changed lives already. You are not only proud White Ribbon ambassadors and we have White Ribbon ambassadors and Our Watch ambassadors on the board tonight, but we've given a lot of shtick to government tonight, but the South Australian Government joined Our Watch and has also come up with a series of recommendations that also relate to primary prevention as a result of this coronial inquiry because they've recognised that, yes, investing in primary prevention strategies and, as I've mentioned before, engaging institutions, whether it's workplaces, whether it's schools, whether it's engaging the community in a sustained public conversation where we actually have these difficult conversations about, yes, gender inequality, we talk about the failures in the system, so the future very much in schools, Tony, I am always going to re-emphasise and emphasise schools but bystander education or the Commonwealth's program On The Line, which is helping 12 to 20-year-old and young people to learn about some of those issues, Simon, to which you referred, but let's just - there is a backdrop here, very quickly, you know.

TONY JONES: Very quickly because we're running out of time.

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Royal commission in Victoria starts today. South Australia has an inquiry reporting soon. The Queensland taskforce reports soon, a Senate inquiry comes down soon. There is some momentum building and I think that's something to remember. Resources, yes, we need more, but there is an understanding that prevention is where it's at but not at the expense of services and intervention as well.

TONY JONES: OK, we've got time for a couple more questions. Thank you. The next question is from Steve Khouw.

WHAT ABOUT MALE VICTIMS?

STEVE KHOUW: Latest available research from the ABS 2012 personal safety survey and the Australian Institute of Criminology indicates that at least one in three victims of family violence in intimate relationships happen to be the male, the men, and the perpetrator significantly happen to be the women. And I should know because I myself, I am a victim. I was a victim. I was assaulted and I suffered immensely with psychological trauma but the thing is that nobody believed me. The police, social worker, the court system, not even me mates. You see, I just happen to be a bloke. So I ask the panel, how do we raise awareness to recognise and help the male victims of family violence in such a way that we don't take away all the good work we already have in preventing violence against women?

TONY JONES: Simon, you can start us off.

SIMON SANTOSHA: And that's a really good question because, when we're focusing on the majority, which is what we are at the moment, that far more women get harmed, minority voices get lost in this. Some of the minority voices that experience violence, I'm seeing an increase on the Gold Coast and, indeed we are nationally, of adolescent sons abusing their mothers, especially when there is not another bloke around to say, 'Hey, mate, step it down.' That's a problem. Elder abuse is a huge problem. Same-sex relationships is a huge problem in domestic violence and men, and those - especially with men, because we have had stereotype that women can't be violent. So it's a bit icky for us to take that on board and they are marginalised and there is no service provision. I think we have to invite those minority people into the conversation, so what we're talking about tonight doesn't exclude them. I really think that's important.

TONY JONES: Natasha, there is a push from some sectors for gender neutral services. What are your thoughts?

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Well, first of all, men and women, boys and girls, can be the subject of domestic family violence and sexual assault. The ABS statistics are very clear, though, that women are three times more likely to be such victims. Can I say though that anyone who is the victim of violence deserves to be heard, believed, supported. There is no question about that. Violence happens to different groups, as we've discussed. It also happens not only in heterosexual relationships, it happens in homosexual relationships as well. The vast majority of perpetrators are men and that's why it's considered very much a gender issue across the world and here in particular. So when you talk about neutrality, yes, we have to engage men. You've heard very good reasons tonight from everyone on the panel as to why that is critical, why behavioural change is critical. But, also, we have to recognise, as I mentioned before, there are some key determinates as to why we have violence to this extent, to this severity and understanding that there are different definitions of the severity and the impact on women, who are disproportionately affect, when you take that into account, we have to acknowledge that this is still a gender issue - gendered issue. So neutrality doesn't always cut it. You've said is, Charlie. Tailored programs, targeted programs, one size fits all doesn't work. There is a gender aspect to this issue and that is not to say that other men can't be victims.

TONY JONES: Quick response if you're going to get in, Simon.

SIMON SANTOSHA: And we can hold that gendered approach very comfortably with psychological approaches of attachment trauma and strength-based engagement approaches. It doesn't have to exclude each other. We can hold multiple approaches and invite the mental health services, invite psychologists, invite mental health experts, as well as all the other people already that are engaged in this conversation.

TONY JONES: OK, we're just about out of time. Natasha wants to jump in. Just responds briefly. One line, she says.

NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Our Watch, our vision is of a violence-free Australia. I don't want anyone to be subject to violence in our community.

TONY JONES: OK. We really don't have time for one more question. Let's take it anyway. It comes from Sophie Trower.

ROSIE'S ADVICE TO WOMEN

SOPHIE TROWER: Hi Rosie. I just wanted to say thank you on behalf of the audience and everyone watching at home. You're an incredible woman, so thank you. Rosie, what advice would you give to any women watching at home who are living with violence?

ROSE BATTY: You know, advice, is it a good thing? I would say you stay safe but it will never get better and you deserve more. You deserve to live a life where you can wake up every day and not have to worry about the day ahead, what decisions you have to make, whether you are keeping yourself or your children. You know, there is a life that you don't have to live, but it is about safely and I would suggest that you pick up the phone and if you are in a very unhappy relationship that you ring the 1800 Respect and get put through to experts who can speak to you, because if you do speak to the wrong people who do give you advice, tell you what to do, what they would do in your position, you don't feel supported, you don't feel empowered, you feel judged and criticised. So my advice would be to speak to the family violence services and the crisis lines that are there who totally understand the position you're in, that they are not there to tell you what to do, they're just there to support you. They empower you, but you know that you're going to make the decisions you can when you are ready and that's - you know, you are the expert in your life and it's when you are ready.

TONY JONES: Thank you, Rosie. Thank you very much and we will give you that number in a moment. That's all we have time for tonight. Please thank our panel: Charlie King, Rosie Batty, Natasha Stott Despoja, Simon Santosha and Tim Cartwright. Thank you. Now, as I promised, a reminder that if you do need help, contact the National Family Violence Counselling Centre. The number is on your screen now. We will put it up again later after the show if you don't have time to take it down. And we'll be back next Monday with the Assistant Treasurer Josh Frydenberg; Labor backbencher, author and economist Andrew Leigh; star of stage and screen and since her last appearance on Q&A, Australian citizen, Miriam Margolyes; Centre for Independent Studies policy analyst, Trisha Jha; and the Editor-in-Chief of Mamamia, Jamila Rizvi. Until next week's Q&A, goodnight.