The following interview took place in Rome, Italy on June 24, 1986. This is the first part of a two-part interview. Read the second part here.

How did O-Sensei teach jo and ken in Iwama after the war? We understand that you entered the Iwama Dojo in the summer of 1946. Did you practice Jo and Ken as well as taijutsu immediately after you entered the dojo?

Yes, we practiced both of them. Since we could not practice them in the evening, we did them during morning practice. After we got up we sat down in front of the kamisama in seiza for 40 minutes and then practice began. The practice was for uchideshi only but an exception was made and I was allowed to join in.

Who were the uchideshi in those days?

Mr. Abe, Mr. Tohei, Mr. Kasuga, Mr. Ishihara who is presently the head of Ishihara Sangyo, and some others came and went. Kisshomaru Sensei, Tohei Sensei and Mr. Abe all practiced the ken and jo. Mr. Yamaguchi also came to Iwama. That was around 1951 or 52. Mr. Tohei brought his students along carrying rice from Tochigi Prefecture and stayed in the dojo to practice. He used to come to the dojo by bicycle in the beginning. It takes 50 minutes by car today! So it was very hard to commute from Tochigi.

Anyway, when O-Sensei explained Aikido he always said that taijutsu (body techniques) and ken and jo techniques were all the same. He always started out his explanation of Aikido using the ken as you see in his films. In the early stage of our ken practice, O-Sensei just told us to come to strike. That’s all.

Weren’t there any tsuki (thrusting) attacks with the bokken?

No, not at all. He just told us to come to strike him. Ken practice began from there. Since I had practiced Kendo when I was little, I somehow managed to cope with the situation. Then he told me to prepare a stand for tan-renuchi (striking training). So I gathered some wood and made the stand with them. However, Sensei got angry and broke it with his bokken. He said to me, “This kind of thin wood is useless!” After that, I had to think of something. I cut two big pieces of wood and drove nails into them and tied them together. When I made that, Sensei praised me. However, even that lasted less than one week. So we hit at different places to save the wood. Then after one week I went out again to cut wood in order to make another one. There were a lot of trees in the hills in those days. We used this setup for training in striking with the bokken. It is training for the hips and arms and also for uchikomi (power striking). I named this “tan-renuchi” myself.

Did O-Sensei do tanrenuchi practice often?

Yes, he did. He would say, “Strike another 100 times.” O-Sensei lived on the other side of the shrine. The house was about 200 meters away from the dojo but it no longer exists. We would hit that stand in the morning. If we didn’t kiai loud enough, he would scold us. Since there were only one or two neighbors, we had no problem. While we were practicing, some of the deshi would tire out and stop striking and only shout. O-Sensei could hear their shouting and this sounded like they were training as usual. Some ended up shouting from their beds. (Laughter). It sounds like a joke but it was really true.

As training advanced, we were taught what we now call “Ichi no Tachi” (first paired sword practice). He taught us only this for three or four years and nothing else. The only thing we did was to go and strike until we were completely exhausted and had become unsteady. When we came to the point where we were unable to move he would signal that that was enough and let us go. That was the only thing we did for morning practice every day. In the last years, I was taught by Sensei almost privately. Mr. Tohei got married and returned home and Kisshomaru Sensei also married and went to Tokyo. The other uchideshi also went home.

What kind of explanation did O-Sensei offer for the jo and ken?

For jo practice, he would just swing his jo in a flash in front of us. We just imitated him. When we couldn’t do it he would say, “If you watch carefully you’ll understand!” Then he would show the movement once more but faster this time. It was even harder to understand. Then he would say again, “If you watch carefully you’ll understand!” and he would do it still faster. We ended up not understanding anything after all (Laughter). He wielded the jo in various ways while showing us movements. He offered us an explanation of how a technique was used depending on the type of attack. This was different from the awase or partner practices. He did it without a partner. He just imagined that he had an enemy in front of him and quickly showed techniques for various situations such as when you are attacked in a given manner, whether by a thrust or a strike.

Did O-Sensei give any names to the jo movements?

No, no names. He just told us to do this or that. Names came to be used much later. When I starting teaching myself I realized O-Sensei’s way of teaching would not be appropriate so I classified and arranged his jo techniques. I rearranged everything into 20 basic movements I called “suburi” which included tsuki (thrusting), uchikomi (striking), hassogaeshi (figure-eight movements) and so on so it would be easier for students to practice them.

How long after you entered the Iwama Dojo did university students begin to come to train?

They began to come while O-Sensei was still active. Students of Kanagawa University, Tohoku Gakuin and Ibaragi University came to Iwama every year while O-Sensei and his wife were still well. O-Sensei scolded his students at Hombu Dojo if they used the jo or ken but he would watch me teaching the students these weapons in front of the shrine in the morning with a smile on his face. I don’t know what distinction he made between us but one was certainly made.

Were you teaching the university students the kata you developed?

No. That happened later on. O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. His way of teaching might be good for private instruction but when you have to teach 30 or 40 students all together the one-two-three method is the only one effective. This was why I gave each of the suburi movements a number. Later this developed into the 31-movement jo kata. In later years I was visited by one of the alumni from that period. I think he was a student of Miyagi Education University. He said, “Sensei, wasn’t it the 24-movement jo kata?” I replied “Now we have 31!” (Laughter). In those days we had 24 movements. Perhaps we included some of the jo movements in hayagaeshi and this added up to 24 movements. However, this was not easy enough to learn and so I divided the movements into 31. People came to call it the “31-movement jo kata” without my realizing it.

When I was taught the sword suburi, I had a habit of swinging kendo-style. O-Sensei said that wasn’t good and had me do partial suburi practice. You must first practice the suburi in order to be able to practice the kumitachi. It is the same as learning how to catch a ball first before being able to play baseball. The basics to be learned for the kumijo and kumitachi are the suburi. This was why I made the seven sword suburi. You should not practice the kumitachi before you master these seven. It is not possible to do so and you are also likely to be injured. If you move on to kumitachi practice after learning the suburi and awase (matched partner practices), you will learn good form and also you won’t be injured. For the kumijo you should first learn the 31-movanent kata and 20 suburi properly. This is the correct order of practice. For taijutsu we practice ki flow techniques only after practicing the basics. You cannot call what we do a martial art if you practice only ki flow techniques while ignoring basics.

When O-Sensei showed the ken and jo movements, he seems to have done them quite rapidly. I imagine that is the case with the 31 jo kata too.

Although he didn’t use a one-two-three method, he always taught us patiently and explained in detail what we should do. Mr. Tohei’s kata has a lower number count and so people say that he was taught in one way while I was taught in another way. But I’m not sure about that. O-Sensei also showed me different kata. However, I only remember half of them. The “13-movement jo kata” is one I created by imitating these kata I remembered.

It seems that the 31-movement kata really forms the basis for your jo practice.

Yes, but since this is a form the Founder left for us we should not call it the “31-movement kata.” As a student of the Founder, I cannot make any changes to the kumitachi or the 31-kata. Others are free to make changes but as long as I am in charge of O-Sensei’s dojo I have to do exactly what I learned from Sensei. For example, the second kumitachi is more difficult than the third one. Some suggested that I should replace the second with the third because nobody could tell the difference. But I told him that I wouldn’t do that because I would know the difference.

Did O-Sensei give you any explanation about how he himself studied the ken and jo or where these arts originated?

He once showed me a copy of a scroll written about kata. I don’t remember what school it was but there was a person who had been researching this art and he came to see O-Sensei with a copy of the scroll. By copy I mean a hand-copied document. The Founder talked to him about the art and he returned home satisfied leaving the copy he brought at the dojo. He showed me this copy when he was arranging his personal belongings in the old house. He told me to look at it. You know that I do variations of the five kumitachi. Well in the copy there were terms such as “riari” and “tokuari” which were written with sumi ink. These riari and tokuari are the variations I am doing. Sensei showed me this copy and explained to me that this riari means this and this tokuari is a variation of this form. However, once the Founder performed these movements they became “aiki-like” or Ueshiba style.

It would be interesting to find out more about this predecessor art.

I don’t know what it was nor does Kisshomaru Sensei seem to know about it. You know that I have a series of photos taken by Kodansha at the old Noma dojo. I found those photos which were half-destroyed and looked like trash when I was putting things in order in a storeroom. Their color had changed. When I told O-Sensei about the photos he said that he would not need them and gave them to me.

Although Tohei Sensei and Hikitsuchi Sensei of Shingu are teaching weapons they are clearly different from yours.

Yes, that’s because O-Sensei would teach differently depending on how he felt.

Do you think that your method and those of Tohei Sensei and Hikitsuchi Sensei are representative of O-Sensei in different periods?

You could say that. It’s useful to note the differences. However, you won’t understand these forms just by swinging the weapons. You have to work in pairs when practicing. For example, you realize that you should react in a given way when your opponent attacks you. I naturally created the 31 kumijo (movements in response to the 31-jo kata) while practicing with a partner. When I was instructing the students of Tohoku Gakuin University in Sendai by the Hirose river, I was asked by the students what they should do in a demonstration. I suggested some kata and this was the beginning of the kumijo. The kata I created as a practice method remained. The 31 kumijo were created just recently. With these kumijo you can understand the jo of O-Sensei. You have to understand O-Sensei’s technique in order to study his art.

Around when did you start having confidence in your ken and jo, Sensei?

I will never feel confident about them but probably it took five or six years for me to become able to practice them properly. I’m referring to the 31-movement jo kata. I cannot change these forms. However, it was necessary to create a method to enable students to practice in pairs even though the movements are not logical because they are not really related to each other. We have to work on them partially to devise responses if the opponent comes with specific attacks. O-Sensei imagined all kinds of enemies and showed us partial movements in sequence. Since all of those movements are to be quickly executed in succession they are difficult to do well. But they are wonderful. When we show the 31 jo kata and kumijo to other martial art masters they praise them. If we use the thin jo or bokken you find in shops in Tokyo, they all break since we strike hard. Therefore, I order a special size. O-Sensei’s bokken was thick. Everybody imitated him and ordered thick ones. He had a professional make his. But when he traveled he gave them away since everybody asked for one. I made a good one for myself but when I left it with him he gave it away too. (Laughter)

Did O-Sensei show the movements of the jo and ken only in Iwama?

He showed the movements wherever he went. But I imagine there were few places where he taught them properly from the basics. Showing movements and teaching them are different. I was taught first how to swing a sword. I organized what I learned and devised these kumijo and suburi for the sword. O-Sensei’s method may have been good for private lessons but not for teaching groups. In his method, there were no names for techniques, no words. He just told us to come to strike him. This was why I organized the movements into tsuki (thrusts), uchikomi (strikes) and kaeshi (turning movements) and gave them names.

Was there anything which specifically influenced you in this regard?

I naturally developed this system. For example, I decided to call one movement “gedangaeshi” because I turn the jo at the lower level or another “jodangaeshi” because I execute the turn at the upper level. I used natural names. In the old days, people used names such as “kasumi,” “ukigumo,” or “murakumo.” These were terms with mysterious meanings which may have been impressive because of some kind of literary value. But the samurai used such names in order to make them look good. Their purpose was to give the impression that their techniques were special or that they had secret sword techniques.

When O-Sensei taught the 31 jo movements, did he show them consecutively from beginning to end?

Yes. He would never break them down in partial fragments. This made his teaching method consistent, which made it easier for us to understand.

There is a photo where O-Sensei is seen teaching the jo in the old Hombu Dojo. All the students behind Sensei are imitating his movements. Do you think that was a special lesson?

When O-Sensei would give explanations he would just say, “The jo is like this!” or “The ken is like that!” and so I think that there were only a few occasions that he actually taught weapons. I think he taught them in Osaka and Shingu. He probably taught them also in Hombu Dojo on some special occasions.

What is interesting about that particular photo is that all the students behind him are imitating O-Sensei holding their jo in a certain position. They may have been in the middle of practicing the 31-movement kata.

If you call them the 31-kata O-Sensei would get mad at you. He would say, “You fool!” For example, take the movements 19, 20 and 21. They really should be done in one movement. However, if you practice that way it is difficult to learn. Therefore, you have to practice individual movements and then learn complete movements. There is one person who has published a book on the jo and claims that it is the jo of O-Sensei but he knows nothing about O-Sensei’s jo. He is just copying the 20 suburi I created. It is an outrageous thing to do!

Did you also do kumijo-like practices with O-Sensei?

Partially, yes. There is a photo of us doing one. He only told me to strike or thrust at him and so it was not really a kumijo. He used me for explanations and for showing forms. I created the 31 jo movements from this. A certain budo expert told me that in the Aiki jo there are movements of the sword, jo, spear, and naginata. I think this is fine because it is Aikido.

Did O-Sensei also teach ken and jo in his later years?

He only gave explanations in the period when he often went to Tokyo toward the end of his life. When he didn’t go to Tokyo often he would teach us every morning, though.

Did O-Sensei himself have any preference between the jo and ken?

No. I never felt he did. He always said that everything is the same.

In the Aikido world, there are some people who say that taijutsu originated from the ken or on the contrary that the ken originated from taijutsu.

O-Sensei clearly said that Aikido taijutsu techniques were modified from the ken. I was always taught that way. So you cannot call the art real taijutsu unless you practice taijutsu with sword movements in mind. You can’t call your art Aikido unless you think of taijutsu movements when practicing the ken. The kumitachi can always be transformed into taijutsu movements. When practicing taijutsu, if you don’t move as if dealing with a sword you won’t be able to handle a sword attack. O-Sensei wrote in the manual called Budo in 1938 that when executing shihonage you must move considering the hand of your opponent as a sword. Shihonage came from a ken movement.

Those who insist that the ken originated from taijutsu say that you can understand the similar points between ken and taijutsu if you look at, for example, shihonage but not techniques such as ushirowaza and others. How do you answer this question?

It’s simple. Those people were just never taught the ken and jo of Aikido. They say that kind of thing because they don’t know the use of these weapons. I learned them properly from O-Sensei.

Can you explain the relationship between ken and taijutsu with forms such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, and yonkyo?

It’s not possible to try to relate all techniques to the sword. The feeling of awase or blending is important. This awase is the same as that for the ken. In Aikido, everything starts with awase: taijutsu, jo, and ken. The forms are different but the feeling of blending is all the same.

This is the first part of a two-part interview. Read the second part here.