SiskosGoatee Profile Blog Joined May 2012 Albania 1482 Posts #1



- In ZvZ it is really easy and cheap to scout your opponent (and get a drone kill while doing so)

- in ZvZ if you do not scout your opponent, you can die and lose the game in a second.



So, how do we scout in ZvZ? Well, the simplest and most common way is to simply have an overlord overlook the natural and possibly main mineral line to see if your opponent is droning or not. No drones being made means larvae are spent on something else, no dout accumilating lings for a huge attack, so get your spines ready and start mining gas for your own banes and get your own lings. In order to not compromise ZvZ. Every natural has to have space for an overlord that checks mineral saturation without a queen being able to easily deny that vision. Also note that Zerg has their own overlords, thus air vision and therefore high grounds are not enough, you need dead space or at least something the queen can't actually physically reach. Being able to check gasses with it as well is a big plus but not needed.



Moving to defending attacks in ZvZ, like in PvP, you depend upon a chocke. Every ZvZ on TDA is baneling all in vs baneling all in because there is just no way to block that choke off with queens to stop that from happening.



Furthermore, the choke can't be too far away from either the main hatch or the nat hatch, the main hatch because you awnt to be able to actually get creep and connect bases to move queens to defend this stuf, the nat hatch because queens that block the ramp have to be able to assist in dps and transfuse spines as well as spines have to be able to guard both the drones and the ramp where the queens are positioned to block stuff off.



Finally, Z needs to be able to errect a defensive simcity similar to a nexus wall in PvZ to force the attacking player to go arround it thereby buying extra time, while this isn't absolutely necessary, it sure does help.



Couple of examples:



+ Show Spoiler [the bad] +







The entombed valley style layout, note how it is impossible for a spine to guard both ramp and the drones and how a proper defensive walloff isn't possible, on top of that there is no way to check drone counts with an overlord because the overlord would be in the enemy main and easily picked off. Ever noticed how common baneling all ins are on entombed valley in ZvZ? now you know why.







Out of context, the natural looks fine albeit a little cramped, there is a nice defensive simcity going on that is possible, but wait, the main hatch is waaaaaay too far away requiring 2 tumours, in practice 3 becauise you can place the third tumour before the creep is extended, to connect both bases, also, if the map is fully cropped from dead space, there is no place an overlord can hide to check the mienral saturation.







Note how many buildings have to be allocated to create the defensive choke to block, and even then, a spine cannot actually guard both, furtheremore, even though technically an overlord can spy on both mineral lines, a queen can just come and kill him if he does because he's floating over land to do so, not dead space.

The entombed valley style layout, note how it is impossible for a spine to guard both ramp and the drones and how a proper defensive walloff isn't possible, on top of that there is no way to check drone counts with an overlord because the overlord would be in the enemy main and easily picked off. Ever noticed how common baneling all ins are on entombed valley in ZvZ? now you know why.Out of context, the natural looks fine albeit a little cramped, there is a nice defensive simcity going on that is possible, but wait, the main hatch is waaaaaay too far away requiring 2 tumours, in practice 3 becauise you can place the third tumour before the creep is extended, to connect both bases, also, if the map is fully cropped from dead space, there is no place an overlord can hide to check the mienral saturation.Note how many buildings have to be allocated to create the defensive choke to block, and even then, a spine cannot actually guard both, furtheremore, even though technically an overlord can spy on both mineral lines, a queen can just come and kill him if he does because he's floating over land to do so, not dead space.



+ Show Spoiler [the good] +







As simple as it is elegant, defensive simcity, queen can block the ramp and an enemy overlord is keeping tab to see if Mr. Red is droning healthily.



As simple as it is elegant, defensive simcity, queen can block the ramp and an enemy overlord is keeping tab to see if Mr. Red is droning healthily. Alright, I'm seeing a lot of this theory going under the radar, admittedly ZvZ is a pretty poorly understood matchup by anyone but here's some things about it we do know:- In ZvZ it is really easy and cheap to scout your opponent (and get a drone kill while doing so)- in ZvZ if you do not scout your opponent, you can die and lose the game in a second.So, how do we scout in ZvZ? Well, the simplest and most common way is to simply have an overlord overlook the natural and possibly main mineral line to see if your opponent is droning or not. No drones being made means larvae are spent on something else, no dout accumilating lings for a huge attack, so get your spines ready and start mining gas for your own banes and get your own lings. In order to not compromise ZvZ. Every natural has to have space for an overlord that checks mineral saturation without a queen being able to easily deny that vision. Also note that Zerg has their own overlords, thus air vision and therefore high grounds are not enough, you need dead space or at least something the queen can't actually physically reach. Being able to check gasses with it as well is a big plus but not needed.Moving to defending attacks in ZvZ, like in PvP, you depend upon a chocke. Every ZvZ on TDA is baneling all in vs baneling all in because there is just no way to block that choke off with queens to stop that from happening.Furthermore, the choke can't be too far away from either the main hatch or the nat hatch, the main hatch because you awnt to be able to actually get creep and connect bases to move queens to defend this stuf, the nat hatch because queens that block the ramp have to be able to assist in dps and transfuse spines as well as spines have to be able to guard both the drones and the ramp where the queens are positioned to block stuff off.Finally, Z needs to be able to errect a defensive simcity similar to a nexus wall in PvZ to force the attacking player to go arround it thereby buying extra time, while this isn't absolutely necessary, it sure does help.Couple of examples: WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.

moskonia Profile Joined January 2011 Israel 1448 Posts #2 Nice discussion, but it does not look finished, you simply list a good way and a bad way, but you don't list a way to solve the issue or explain in details the issue, a short description won't do almost any good to someone who does not play Zerg at a high level. I get what you are trying to say here, and I agree that some maps are better for pressure and that scouting should be made easier on these maps, but I find it weird you come up with this discussion, since you seem to like aggression and "both meeting up in the middle".



Anyways I think that on maps with chokes naturals like Ohana or Cloud you don't have to have good scouting places, but on maps like Entombed I agree that having better scouting option will make it a better map. I don't think that having perfect scouting on all maps is a good thing though, since it makes for more boring games where no one wants to be aggressive since the first one to be aggressive will have fewer drones but unless he or she has better micro they won't be able to do damage.



Also something to note is that if only one mineral line is scoutable it allows for mind games, which are really fun to watch, so sometimes its good to only have 1 mineral line scoutable, depends on how much the natural is open of course.

SiskosGoatee Profile Blog Joined May 2012 Albania 1482 Posts #3 You can place an overlord behind the mineral lines on Ohana and Cloud Kingdom actually, you can do this on pretty much every map in the ladder except I believe Entombed Valley.



Apart from that, make of it what you will. The point should be easy to see though, you cannot really scout aggression coming all that well without being able to keep tabs on drone counts. It isn't so much saying 'Thou shallt make maps as this' as simply raising awareness and letting people decide for themselves, a lot of people don't seem to fully consider the issue I get the idea. WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.

Fatam Profile Joined June 2012 1986 Posts #4 What are your thoughts on overlord spots out in the map? (e.g. daybreak which has several) Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime

SiskosGoatee Profile Blog Joined May 2012 Albania 1482 Posts #5 On February 04 2013 11:38 Fatam wrote:

What are your thoughts on overlord spots out in the map? (e.g. daybreak which has several) It's completely irrelevant to ZvZ, in ZvZ you will have overlords anywhere anyway. Apart from that, it can be used to make a map a bit more Zerg favoured if need be. If I think Zerg needs a little extra edge on a map I add them, otherwise I leave them out. It's completely irrelevant to ZvZ, in ZvZ you will have overlords anywhere anyway. Apart from that, it can be used to make a map a bit more Zerg favoured if need be. If I think Zerg needs a little extra edge on a map I add them, otherwise I leave them out. WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.

monitor Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 2388 Posts #6 Good analysis but I'm don't think that just ZvZ is enough to make every natural the same. Baneling busts suck, but having a variety of naturals is nice (though... I don't really consider any of these examples a 'variety'). Real variety would be cool, like in-bases, half bases, highground nat, tiny chokes, cliffs, etc.

SiskosGoatee Profile Blog Joined May 2012 Albania 1482 Posts Last Edited: 2013-02-04 03:04:39 #7 Well, people did it for PvP to avoid 4gate vs 4gate. In any sense. You can of course do half bases, high ground nats and all that stuff. Most important thing is to:



- Allow overlords to check mineral saturation

- place both hatches close enough to the ramp for creep spread and defensive simcity.



Apart from that you can do a lot without compromising ZvZ. Like, your natural doesn't actually need any amount of chokes for ZvZ.



I mean, if people make every natural forge FE'able without even requiring a nexus wall, surely an overlord watching the mineral line is not too much to ask.



By the way, on metalopolis, you can place an overlord behind 3 spawns, but not the spawn on the right side of the map. Which creates a real positional imbalance in ZvZ. WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.

moskonia Profile Joined January 2011 Israel 1448 Posts #8 Well metalopolis is not longer in the pool or have been in it for quite some time now... So its irrelevant imo.



Anyways I can understand your talk on ZvZ even though I don't actually have almost any experience in it, on PvP I know for sure the only thing you need is a ramp, all other stuff has almost no affect on the 4gate issue. Protoss can't take the natural in any circumstance, unless its an inbase expo ,it does not matter how open or choked it is, or other map features, so this topic has very little with PvP.



About the fact that not many people consider this is because for one a mirror "can't be imbalanced", and that many people enjoy ling bling wars. Also you have to remember that while things like a spine that covers both ramp and workers is good for defense, maybe the map maker wants the spine to be weak on this map and prefer you go with queens, more bling or what not.



Of course another reasonable reason is that most map makers are not Zerg player, which is possible since there are not many "professional" map makers.

SiskosGoatee Profile Blog Joined May 2012 Albania 1482 Posts Last Edited: 2013-02-04 04:20:48 #9 On February 04 2013 13:06 moskonia wrote:

Well metalopolis is not longer in the pool or have been in it for quite some time now... So its irrelevant imo.



Anyways I can understand your talk on ZvZ even though I don't actually have almost any experience in it, on PvP I know for sure the only thing you need is a ramp, all other stuff has almost no affect on the 4gate issue. Protoss can't take the natural in any circumstance, unless its an inbase expo ,it does not matter how open or choked it is, or other map features, so this topic has very little with PvP.



About the fact that not many people consider this is because for one a mirror "can't be imbalanced", and that many people enjoy ling bling wars. Also you have to remember that while things like a spine that covers both ramp and workers is good for defense, maybe the map maker wants the spine to be weak on this map and prefer you go with queens, more bling or what not.



Well, people gave every map a ramp just for PvP, ZvZ doesn't need a ramp, just a choke, high ground vision actually doesn't matter all that much. ZvZ does need an overlord spot.



While I do agree it can be a stylistic choice. I have the feeling most people actually do not even consider it. Most mapmakers I've spoken with are actually completely oblivious of the theory I outlined above. In no small part because casters and observers are actually terrible at ZvZ and pointing out the thought process of the player. People are completely ignorant when watching ZvZ that both players are trying to check on drone saturation and queens are trying to deny such intel since observers and casters never point this out.



In no small part because:



Well, people gave every map a ramp just for PvP, ZvZ doesn't need a ramp, just a choke, high ground vision actually doesn't matter all that much. ZvZ does need an overlord spot.While I do agree it can be a stylistic choice. I have the feeling most people actually do not even consider it. Most mapmakers I've spoken with are actually completely oblivious of the theory I outlined above. In no small part because casters and observers are actually terrible at ZvZ and pointing out the thought process of the player. People are completely ignorant when watching ZvZ that both players are trying to check on drone saturation and queens are trying to deny such intel since observers and casters never point this out.In no small part because:

Of course another reasonable reason is that most map makers are not Zerg player, which is possible since there are not many "professional" map makers.



Also, due to the above, many Zerg players are also oblivious to the amount of intel you can gain in ZvZ because no one teaches them because casters don't point this out. A friend of mine is a diamond Zerg, she was completely oblivious to this stuff. I just had a 19-1 ZvZ streak and I told her and she was like 'wtf, how can that happen, it's like a complete coinflip' and I argued that it wasn't, she sent me some replays and I noticed she was playing ZvZ in diamond without as much as an overlord behind the natural and no overlords in all the good spots to see things coming, she didn't click on gasses etc. So I told her all these things and with some practice ZvZ became her best matchup.



People just don't consider this because casters don't point it out, they point out all the queues to look for in PvP, TvT and TvZ and what-not but they never point out this stuff in ZvZ so a lot of people actually don't know. I've all inned people because I knew they didn't have an ovie behind my natural with high success rate many times on the ladder. A lot of people just don't know. Also, due to the above, many Zerg players are also oblivious to the amount of intel you can gain in ZvZ because no one teaches them because casters don't point this out. A friend of mine is a diamond Zerg, she was completely oblivious to this stuff. I just had a 19-1 ZvZ streak and I told her and she was like 'wtf, how can that happen, it's like a complete coinflip' and I argued that it wasn't, she sent me some replays and I noticed she was playing ZvZ in diamond without as much as an overlord behind the natural and no overlords in all the good spots to see things coming, she didn't click on gasses etc. So I told her all these things and with some practice ZvZ became her best matchup.People just don't consider this because casters don't point it out, they point out all the queues to look for in PvP, TvT and TvZ and what-not but they never point out this stuff in ZvZ so a lot of people actually don't know. I've all inned people because I knew they didn't have an ovie behind my natural with high success rate many times on the ladder. A lot of people just don't know. WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.

SierraWinter Profile Joined February 2013 United Kingdom 2 Posts Last Edited: 2013-02-04 05:54:30 #10 --- Nuked ---

moskonia Profile Joined January 2011 Israel 1448 Posts #11 WTF Sierra, either a spammer or I don't understand the comment, anyways Siskos, great pointers, maybe u should do some sort of discussion or guide on the matter in the strategy forums? To help Zerg players in general, I am sure many will appreciate it. Also I will now try to look for such matters when I cast ZvZ, as a Protoss players its hard to know things like these when watching other matchups than ones that involve a Protoss.