MockHamill Profile Joined March 2010 Sweden 1698 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-26 07:13:57 #1 Corrected Test Results, July 26 (GMT):



In order to investigate the difference of Widow Mines before and after the patch I did a series of tests.

These tests were a-move test where the units were running over burrowed mines, thus not depicting a battle, but should at least give an indication of the difference. I ran each test 3 times and averaged out the result.



Blizzard made a mistake with the patch so that shield splash bonus damage was not applied.

Link



This has now been corrected which I why I have redone the Protoss part of the test.



20 Zealots running over 10 mines

Before: 4 Zealots left

After: 0 Zealots left



30 Zealots running over 10 mines:

Before: 13 Zealots left

After: 7 Zealots left



10 Immortals running over 10 mines

Before: 4 Immortals left

After: 2 Immortals left



20 Stalkers running over 10 mines:

Before: 5 Stalkers left

After: 4 Stalkers left



8 Archons running over 10 mines:

Before: 2 Archon left

After: 1 Archon left

[b]



25 Zerglins running over 2 mines

Before patch: 9 Zerglings left

After patch: 9 Zergligns left



10 roaches running over 5 mines:

Before: 4 roaches left

After: 1-2 roaches left



5 Ultras running over 10 widow mines:

Before: 4 Ultras left

After: 3-4 Ultras left



10 Mutas flying over 3 widow mines:

Before: 7 mutas left

After: 7 mutas left



Conclusion

Widow mines are significantly better against Protoss players that just a-move without detection. Against Zerg they are just slightly better. In order to investigate the difference of Widow Mines before and after the patch I did a series of tests.These tests were a-move test where the units were running over burrowed mines, thus not depicting a battle, but should at least give an indication of the difference. I ran each test 3 times and averaged out the result.Blizzard made a mistake with the patch so that shield splash bonus damage was not applied.This has now been corrected which I why I have redone the Protoss part of the test.Before: 4 Zealots leftAfter: 0 Zealots leftBefore: 13 Zealots leftAfter: 7 Zealots leftBefore: 4 Immortals leftAfter: 2 Immortals leftBefore: 5 Stalkers leftAfter: 4 Stalkers leftBefore: 2 Archon leftAfter: 1 Archon left[b]Before patch: 9 Zerglings leftAfter patch: 9 Zergligns leftBefore: 4 roaches leftAfter: 1-2 roaches leftBefore: 4 Ultras leftAfter: 3-4 Ultras leftBefore: 7 mutas leftAfter: 7 mutas leftWidow mines are significantly better against Protoss players that just a-move without detection. Against Zerg they are just slightly better.

[PkF] Wire Profile Joined March 2013 France 22019 Posts #2 The interesting test should have been with banelings ! I'm not surprised at all by the other results : the buff isn't as big as some people seem to think.

beg Profile Joined May 2010 991 Posts #3 i'm actually disappointed you didn't find any significant differences for protoss units O_O

SC2Toastie Profile Blog Joined October 2013 Netherlands 5721 Posts #4 On July 26 2014 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:

The interesting test should have been with banelings ! I'm not surprised at all by the other results : the buff isn't as big as some people seem to think.

Well, You can just look at a mine shot. Every Ling/Bane that got damaged, will be dead after the patch. ezpz Well, You can just look at a mine shot. Every Ling/Bane that got damaged, will be dead after the patch. ezpz Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!

StarMoon Profile Joined April 2011 Canada 523 Posts #5 *June = July

FeyFey Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 10106 Posts #6 It will impact TvZ greatly though. Currently Zerg could care less about Widow mines in the late midgame and beyond, like some people mentioned when they nerfed it by the way. With the old splash though controlled mine hits will just do to much damage to simply a-move in those stages. So Zergs will have to do what they did before, bait and destroy mines with small unit groups.

It will slow Zergs down, basically everywhere where no Zerg creep is there is Terran creep. (Widowmines suck on creep, but without creep they are godly). As a Bonus Zerg will have it easier on creep now, since the Mines will deal even more friendly fire.

SNSeigifried Profile Joined April 2013 United States 1637 Posts #7 The thing with the buff is it really depends on where the mines hit and how spread they are to determine results so its hard to judge the difference without different scenarios. Icebound Esports

MockHamill Profile Joined March 2010 Sweden 1698 Posts #8 On July 26 2014 07:35 beg wrote:

i'm actually disappointed you didn't find any significant differences for protoss units O_O



I think the reason for this is the improved splash damage only applies to shields. So for instance, once a Zealots has lost his 50 shields the extra splash shield damage does not damage his health at all.

I think the reason for this is the improved splash damage only applies to shields. So for instance, once a Zealots has lost his 50 shields the extra splash shield damage does not damage his health at all.

Socup Profile Joined June 2014 190 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-25 22:45:14 #9



Unless you get "lucky" and the mines aim for targets that are on the edges, getting all the banes. Thats the problem with WM, they're a "luck" unit. Yes, they still target first to enter their radius, but the luck is in how the blob moves across that detect radius or even bypass it.



Umm.. unrelated anyone notice any pointy blue party hats with lights all over on top of their scvs? I just went to play a game and got this.. creepy.



On July 26 2014 07:35 SC2Toastie wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 26 2014 07:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:

The interesting test should have been with banelings ! I'm not surprised at all by the other results : the buff isn't as big as some people seem to think.

Well, You can just look at a mine shot. Every Ling/Bane that got damaged, will be dead after the patch. ezpz Well, You can just look at a mine shot. Every Ling/Bane that got damaged, will be dead after the patch. ezpz



Casters will say excellent Mine shots? I predict a move banes would be the same as always, because if you have a patch of mines and one mine blows up a bunch of banes, then the banes blow up and kill the mines. If your radius is bigger, then it amounts to the same banes and mines dead after just one firing.Unless you get "lucky" and the mines aim for targets that are on the edges, getting all the banes. Thats the problem with WM, they're a "luck" unit. Yes, they still target first to enter their radius, but the luck is in how the blob moves across that detect radius or even bypass it.Umm.. unrelated anyone notice any pointy blue party hats with lights all over on top of their scvs? I just went to play a game and got this.. creepy.Casters will say excellent Mine shots? There's no reason blizzard can't release new units or fixes to a game without creating another costly "expansion" you've already paid 100$ for, unless they want to treadmill the gambler with future promises of "it gets better"

Pseudorandom Profile Joined April 2010 United States 120 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-25 22:48:50 #10 Patch focused on T and P, and the buff to T has a bigger impact on TvZ then it does TvP. I like the MSC change myself, but the WM buff I'm not a fan of as a Z. It was so much work before the nerf to try and spread mid fight/small groups that get close enough to detonate the mines before dieing to the bio-fire. Oh well, get better or die trying ^.^ "This is scissors, paper is fine, paper just needs to learn how to play. Paper needs to stop complaining." - richlol

Ctone23 Profile Blog Joined December 2012 United States 1819 Posts #11 On July 26 2014 07:35 beg wrote:

i'm actually disappointed you didn't find any significant differences for protoss units O_O



The mine may not kill more toss units, but the increased damage should definitely help, I hope at least The mine may not kill more toss units, but the increased damage should definitely help, I hope at least Gauntlet Esports

Hunta15 Profile Joined April 2014 United States 56 Posts #12 As we all know though, in regards to ZvT.



Pre-nerf mines were far better than post-nerf mines.



I also don't believe the Zergling one. Not after the amount of ZvT's I watched pre-nerf.

plogamer Profile Blog Joined January 2012 Canada 3102 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-26 00:29:29 #13 Kill count parameters do ignore the overall damage done to remaining units. Units that took 10+10 shield (at the edges, I think) damage before now take 40+40. That's a decent chunk.



However, against P that damage is not as bad considering the fact that P units tend to have more 'bulk' (HP + Shield combined) than other races and bigger models that don't clump up as badly as other races.



TvZ I think Blizz will need to keep a close eye since hellbats were buffed lately. But let's see how it plays out since hellbat buffs and mine buffs are somewhat exclusive in actual play. Making hellbats means NOT making mines.

LimeNade Profile Blog Joined February 2010 United States 2124 Posts #14 Unfortunately I don't think is a real accurate test since widow mine shots can be funky. Some top tier players will focus fire a middle pack of lings/blings making the shot much far more effective with this patch. Other times if you are running into a pack of widow mines and the terran player isn't controlling the widow mine (which is common) I believe the widow mine AI target fires the first unit within it's range making the splash radius less effective then if it hit the middle of the pack. JD, need I say more? :D

royalroadweed Profile Joined April 2013 United States 8113 Posts #15 What about marines? "Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"

Pontius Pirate Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United States 1556 Posts #16 Due to zerg regen, you have to test 4 widow mines against mutas, not 3. 3 will leave a bunch of mutas at 1 health in most scenarios. "I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream

Thieving Magpie Profile Blog Joined December 2012 United States 6752 Posts #17 On July 26 2014 09:24 LimeNade wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think is a real accurate test since widow mine shots can be funky. Some top tier players will focus fire a middle pack of lings/blings making the shot much far more effective with this patch. Other times if you are running into a pack of widow mines and the terran player isn't controlling the widow mine (which is common) I believe the widow mine AI target fires the first unit within it's range making the splash radius less effective then if it hit the middle of the pack.



I thought you couldn't target fire with mines? I thought you couldn't target fire with mines? Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?

Yakikorosu Profile Joined March 2013 1203 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-26 01:12:38 #18 On July 26 2014 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 26 2014 09:24 LimeNade wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think is a real accurate test since widow mine shots can be funky. Some top tier players will focus fire a middle pack of lings/blings making the shot much far more effective with this patch. Other times if you are running into a pack of widow mines and the terran player isn't controlling the widow mine (which is common) I believe the widow mine AI target fires the first unit within it's range making the splash radius less effective then if it hit the middle of the pack.



I thought you couldn't target fire with mines? I thought you couldn't target fire with mines?



Yes you could, you hear casters talking about targeting widow mines constantly. There's even a trick players use that if you keep retargeting a widow mine it won't fire at all (useful sometimes for preventing players from baiting out shots).



The patch should make a huge difference in TvZ as people are saying because T will FINALLY have something decent against banelings. If you don't think pre-nerfed mines were good against banelings, watch any INnoVation TvZ ffrom 2013. Yes you could, you hear casters talking about targeting widow mines constantly. There's even a trick players use that if you keep retargeting a widow mine it won't fire at all (useful sometimes for preventing players from baiting out shots).The patch should make a huge difference in TvZ as people are saying because T will FINALLY have something decent against banelings. If you don't think pre-nerfed mines were good against banelings, watch any INnoVation TvZ ffrom 2013.

pure.Wasted Profile Blog Joined December 2008 Canada 4701 Posts #19



On July 26 2014 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 26 2014 09:24 LimeNade wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think is a real accurate test since widow mine shots can be funky. Some top tier players will focus fire a middle pack of lings/blings making the shot much far more effective with this patch. Other times if you are running into a pack of widow mines and the terran player isn't controlling the widow mine (which is common) I believe the widow mine AI target fires the first unit within it's range making the splash radius less effective then if it hit the middle of the pack.



I thought you couldn't target fire with mines? I thought you couldn't target fire with mines?



You can, it's just really hard and doesn't guarantee success. You can switch the target, but the 1.5 second countdown until the missile is launched will start again. So if a bunch of Lings are running by and after 1 second you manage to switch the target to the ideal Ling for most damage, he might be out of range by the time the missile is ready and the WM will start picking a new target.



Without video documentation this comes off as little more than hearsay, I'm afraid. What was WM positioning like? How far away were the units running by, and in what shape did they run by? You mentioned that total amount of damage dealt might be a difference, but failed to mention how much damage there was, total. Why? (obviously to make your point stronger, but it reeks of bad science)You can, it's justhard and doesn't guarantee success. You can switch the target, but the 1.5 second countdown until the missile is launched will start again. So if a bunch of Lings are running by and after 1 second you manage to switch the target to the ideal Ling for most damage, he might be out of range by the time the missile is ready and the WM will start picking a new target. INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you

Genome852 Profile Blog Joined August 2010 United States 979 Posts #20 On July 26 2014 07:24 MockHamill wrote:

It is possible that if you look at each unit on a hit point level instead of just dead or not, the difference would have been slightly larger than what this test indicates though.

Well besides ling bling which will get 1 shot, this is pretty important... after all, no one is only going to build purely widow mines. Well besides ling bling which will get 1 shot, this is pretty important... after all, no one is only going to build purely widow mines.

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