READER COMMENTS ON

"Hundreds of OccupyLA Demonstrators Held for Days Without Charges on $5,000 Bail in Deplorable, Illegal, and Unconstitutional Conditions"

(83 Responses so far...)





COMMENT #1 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/2/2011 @ 2:44 pm PT...





That's a very upsetting piece. I don't understand what sounds like Jekyll/Hyde behavior by the authorities. Could the disparity be explained by different factions in the power structure manifesting the seemingly opposing behaviors? Or are the same people acting relatively decently in one moment and then like smirking sociopaths the next? Be very interested to hear Jeannie Dean's(or anyone else who was there)take on all this.

COMMENT #2 [Permalink]

... Cosimo diRondo said on 12/2/2011 @ 2:54 pm PT...





Just anticipating their treatment as enemy combatants under the newly approved senate bill.

COMMENT #3 [Permalink]

... Ancient said on 12/2/2011 @ 4:39 pm PT...





Totally OT...Okay its my birthday and I've taken a couple of days off from the news of the day that I get here, but catching up and reading this makes me more than ever believe what you do here Brad at el makes my life better...even when it hurts to read. Thanks all! I don't have much until I get a job, but I'm gonna give twenty bucks of it to you guys. And hey, Flo I was soooooooooo happy to see your post. I was worried and emailed 99 about you, but she didn't know either. Welcome back guy!

Love,

me

COMMENT #4 [Permalink]

... Ancient said on 12/2/2011 @ 5:14 pm PT...





Crap, I gotta use paypal even though I hate it after what they're doing to Juilian Assange. Hey Brad why don't you get some other pay system!

COMMENT #5 [Permalink]

... Radhika said on 12/2/2011 @ 5:40 pm PT...





I made my donation to the bail/legal fund, and was happy to do so. But...I don't want to see the Occupy movement being held hostage by cities and towns as a way to fill their coffers as they attempt to suppress the movement. Hope the legal eagles come up with an effective strategy.

COMMENT #6 [Permalink]

... Ancient said on 12/2/2011 @ 6:08 pm PT...





Another thought, amerka should change its anthem in reality to this: (even though I actually love this song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfzMLRzH2yw

COMMENT #7 [Permalink]

... MarkP1950 said on 12/2/2011 @ 8:35 pm PT...





And thieves, murderers and rapists are being let loose for overcrowding. Lindsay Lohan spent 1 1/2 hours in jail. Dr Murray will be let loose early. Meanwhile OWSers are being held for exercising their first admendment "rights". Or supposed rights.

COMMENT #8 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 12/3/2011 @ 12:13 am PT...





Are most Americans so docile, deficient of huevos, and lacking in independence too let this happen? I hope OWS will be representative of a shift towards significant change rather than the direction towards even more tyranny that the present US senate overwhelmingly favors.

COMMENT #9 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/3/2011 @ 3:15 am PT...





My comment on whether or not the DHS is involved in any of this is here. The DHS has spent billions upon billions for a decade, and some reporters indicate that they are building a HQ building larger than the Pentagon. At some point in time they are going to have to justify this:

* Some 1,271 government organizations and 1,931 private companies work on programs related to counterterrorism, homeland security and intelligence in about 10,000 locations across the United States. * An estimated 854,000 people, nearly 1.5 times as many people as live in Washington, D.C., hold top-secret security clearances. (Link). The USA right now is a Police-Secretocracy at home, a Wartocracy as to foreign policy. These Occupy episodes are practice.

COMMENT #10 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/3/2011 @ 4:49 am PT...





Those who are spying on us are wealthy and have made the top wealthiest counties wealthy along with them.

COMMENT #11 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/3/2011 @ 5:19 am PT...





It has been asserted that there is no evidence that DHS is taking orders from Congress. Congress is just a neutral observer. Here's Peter King, chairman of the House Committe on Homeland Security speaking about the supporters of the Occupy movement. "they're a bunch of low-life dirtbags" "a cesspool for disease" "the outcasts of society"

COMMENT #12 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/3/2011 @ 8:16 am PT...





Please accept my apologies, David Lasagna, for not responding sooner to your question about the "Jekyll/Hyde behavior by the authorities." Keep in mind that some of the worst abuses were carried out on the buses by LA County Sheriff's Deputies --- the same department which is being investigated at this time by the Justice Department for widespread abuses of prisoners in county jails. I've represented a number of deputy sheriffs for job-related injuries. Most had to spend their first few years as guards in county jails. Prof. Phillip Zimbardo's life-long pursuit of the question you pose is described at length in The Lucifer Effect. That work, in turn, was based on Zimbardo's 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment. It had been scheduled as a two-week experiment in a simulated jail set up in the basement of the Stanford University Psychology Department. College student volunteers were chosen at random as guards and prisoners. The experiment had to be prematurely cut short. As Zimbardo describes it, "In only a few days, our guards became sadistic and our prisoners became depressed and showed signs of extreme stress." I'd recommend linking to Zimbardo's work. I think you'll find it exceptionally enlightening.

COMMENT #13 [Permalink]

... Chris Herz said on 12/3/2011 @ 8:53 am PT...





Good job, this column. I remember when they locked up 12,000 people in DC's RFK Stadium under similar conditions. I only escaped arrest that day by riding my motorcycle through a park and across sidewalks.

Anyhow that's what it took to end the 'Nam War. As far as Zimbardo's work on prisoners/guards is concerned I would leaven that bitter loaf with the last part of Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago; where the politicals finally turn on their civil criminal and official tormenters and the Soviet State is forced to free everyone.

COMMENT #14 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/3/2011 @ 8:59 am PT...





ghostof911 @11, Naomi Wolf has replied to the criticism of her post that you mentioned. That she is on solid ground is absolutely clear to me. Anyone who does not understand what DHS is doing in the nation has a lot of reading to do to catch up. And while doing so, remember that a substantial amount of it is classified along with substantial portions of their budget. “Experience has shown that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” – Thomas Jefferson Like Jimmy asked "Are you experienced?"

COMMENT #15 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/3/2011 @ 12:47 pm PT...





dredd @14 Naomi Wolf meticulously shoots down all of Joshua Holland's bogus claims. I included the AlterNet link in my comment at #11 because I was suprised that such a source would be given cridibility here. Besides having the means and the opportunity, Wolf closes the circle by demonstrating how Peter King has the motivation for crusing OWS. It's the third rail that Wolf refers to from her original article. it is unquestionable to me that Representative Peter King and others on the subcommittee overseeing DHS would be influenced by their own, and by their colleagues', wishes for avoiding the financial transparency posed by OWS demands.

COMMENT #16 [Permalink]

... Thick-Witted Liberal said on 12/3/2011 @ 1:28 pm PT...





Brad, Thanks for telling the real story of the police raid. The LAPD trapped over 170 occupiers who were trying to exit peacefully. In spite of recent changes, the brutality continues.

COMMENT #17 [Permalink]

... MsKitty said on 12/3/2011 @ 1:52 pm PT...





If the Republicans want save a lot of money and balance the budget, how about getting rid of the Department of Homeland Security. It is not only a HUGE waste of money, it's dangerous to our constitutional rights. It's Big Brother and storm troopers all rolled into one huge expensive package and they have saved us from....what? Incompetent underwear and shoe bombers? (Who actually got past all the security and were stopped by passengers and airline staff -so who needs them?)

COMMENT #18 [Permalink]

... molly said on 12/3/2011 @ 2:02 pm PT...





Just posted the link and part of post on the Guardian in UK. Don't know if they will leave it up but some of you may want to go there. They are much more accepting of differences online than most US sites.Light is the best disinfectant.

COMMENT #19 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/3/2011 @ 4:03 pm PT...





Dredd sedd @ 14: Naomi Wolf meticulously shoots down all of Joshua Holland's bogus claims. ...in response to Ghostof911 who has subsequently said @ 15: Naomi Wolf meticulously shoots down all of Joshua Holland's bogus claims. Unfortunately, no, she doesn't. Not by a long shot, as Joshua has since detailed with great specificity in his response to hers, which dispatches with her entirely. Again. Look, I don't wish to get too far into the weeds on this tete a tete, as I like both Josh and Naomi, have interviewed each of them, and consider both of them respected colleagues and important progressive voices. But the facts are, if one bothers to examine them, not only did Naomi not respond to Josh's points in her rebuttal, but she deceptively moved the goal post at the same time to suggest that Josh was asserting something that he never asserted. Her main contention, in her response to his, after many many many words supporting a contention that was never in dispute (the possibility that DHS might, somehow, have been offering advise to local law enforcement), is that Josh asserted DHS had "no involvement whatsoever" in various local responses to OWS. Problem is, he never made that assertion. The main points of Naomi's initial article --- pointed to by the Guardian's headline for it: "The shocking truth about the crackdown on Occupy" (a headline she didn't write, so can't be fully blamed for, though I too have written for Guardian and have asked them to change misleading headlines) --- is that DHS has issued "brutal orders" to local law enforcement to crackdown on OWS protest, at the direct orders of both Congress and the President of the United States. None of those assertions, however, were proven in either her original piece (which offered ZERO evidence to support them) or in her subsequent response to Josh which, not only failed to offer any actual evidence yet again, but took a very very long route to ignore those original unsupported assertions entirely. Remember, she argued originally that the violent crackdowns on local OWS protests "is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent." Oh, and she also argued that both Congress and the President were doing it all because they are so frightened that OWS is specifically targeting a law which was only revealed by a 60 Minutes piece about 3 weeks ago --- some three months after OWS had already taken up residence in Zuccotti Park --- which grants immunity for insider trading to be practiced by members of Congress. Now, while the above assertions could all somehow, eventually, turn out to be true (so neither I, nor Joshua, has asserted it is not) is that is, at this time, not a shred of evidence to support any of them. Absolutely none. That Naomi further points to Jason Leopold's details of his FOIA request to DHS (a request that I was very much aware of long before he even wrote about it publicly and well before Naomi pointed it out in her rebuttal, and even before the National Lawyer's Guild made details of their own similar requests known), is, again, no substitute for actual evidence supporting the actual charges she made in her original piece --- the most crucial of which she doesn't even bother speaking to in her rebuttal (as Josh points out in his rebuttal to hers, but which is patently obvious to any objective observer who simply reads both her original piece and then her rebuttal to Josh without a preconceived notion in mind)! Dredd further goes on to write: Anyone who does not understand what DHS is doing in the nation has a lot of reading to do to catch up. ...while GhostOf911 follows that up with comments that the despicable Peter King has made about OWS. Neither of those comments, however, do anything to offer evidence to support Naomi's original assertions! Look, do I like DHS? Absolutely not. Do I think they are a threat to this nation and do a disservice to its citizenry? Absolutely (as MsKitty accurately describes in her comment above @ 17). Do I believe they've played some role in, at the very least, offering advise and/or background support to local law enforcement in the various OWS crackdowns? Almost assuredly. Do they have an even larger role in those crackdowns than is currently supported by existing evidence in the public domain? Perhaps. We're trying to find out. But is there any known evidence --- beyond what either of you or Naomi may believe to be the case --- to support the very serious charge that violent crackdowns on local OWS protests by local law enforcement "is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent"? No. There is absolutely no known evidence on the public record at this time to support any of those very serious charges. If there had been, Naomi would have offered it in her rebuttal to Josh. She didn't. I love her, it's true, but she didn't offer any such information and, in fact, avoided Joshua's debunking of those assertions entirely, even while making up a number of charges that Joshua never made. That, of course, is a sure sign that someone cannot support their own original assertions (no matter how well-meaning they may have been when originally and, I would suggest, emotionally, made.)

COMMENT #20 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/3/2011 @ 4:36 pm PT...





Hi, you guys. Incredible article here @The Brad Blog re: the inhumane conditions our occupiers (my friends, my family) endured in detention after our raid early Wednesday morning. Can't express my gratitude - I've been sick with worry. Most of the 292 of us who were (finally) released have shown incredible resilience in spite of their treatment...maybe because of. Lots of spirited defiance at last night's GA, even though our detainees were returning to us in their prison jumpers, no clothes, no possessions to their name. Some had to attend their arraignment hearings in their prison garb or in the ripped / soiled clothing they had on when they were (unlawfully) arrested... Brad had inquired about getting transcripts of the testimonies - made some phone calls last night, seems that is already being done. I forgot that our GA minutes would have all that testimony already transcribed (our Dennis - amazing fellow / has been there every night typing his little fingies off to preserve our mintues / archiving us word-by-word. every. single. night. You can find our nightly minutes posted at our web-site, here: http://occupylosangeles.org/)... Here's our food committee organizer, Deirdre's story, complete with transcript.

http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/2563 I will be collecting more testimonies tonight...

COMMENT #21 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/3/2011 @ 4:44 pm PT...





I guess one can recognize an article published within the UK when "organization" becomes "organisation." Same when "defense" becomes "defence." Never could figure out why the Brits can't write in English. Or are we colonials the ones who are getting the language wrong?

COMMENT #22 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/3/2011 @ 4:49 pm PT...





As for the Dept. of Homeland Security and what role they played in these "militarized, coordinated" raids - I have lots of thoughts / tho' nothing I can confirm at this time... Our occupyLA media team inquired as to what other law enforcement agencies were on site, and were told NO ONE FROM DHS was involved; but many peeps are reporting that a DHS vehicle was spotted on the perimeter of Solidarity Park the night of our raid. I will try to get photo-documentation of this asap. As for my own personal opinion, what I saw on the ground (and yes, I was very nearly arrested several times throughout the night / video of my surreal experience, tho' grainy due to a very low battery, can be seen here: http://www.ustream.tv/re...80&utm_medium=social) - ...I managed to slip in and out of police barricades, was one of the last livestreamers on site along with my dear colleague OCCUPYFREEDOMLA.

Oh, and I rescued a live hen. Yes, you read that right. Our egg-laying hen, "Red Zinn" - found her wandering around the decimated camp @4:30 am, terrified - she practically jumped into my arms.

I carried her for blocks thru downtown LA, getting laughs from tired police in riot gear as I asked them for suggestions on what I should do with her... I only realized later, and after hearing the testimony of my fellow occupiers these last two nights, how many times I was nearly pinched. Seems that complying with LAPD orders had NO BEARING on whether or not you were arrested. I thought I was clever, but NOPE - I was just LUCKY. ...

COMMENT #23 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/3/2011 @ 4:58 pm PT...





Adding two creepy facts to this discussion: 1. The LAPD on the south steps at the time of the "trojan horse like" raid from INSIDE our encampment when hundreds of cops swarmed out of our own home @City Hall (after using the underground passageways from the LAPD headquarters) - seemed to genuinely be caught off-guard by the aggressive nature of this coordinated raid. My friend, Jennifer (a photographer who also had LEGAL OBSERVER STATUS), had just been told it was fine to stand right where she was (at the top of the stairs) by our LAPD contacts - in fact, we were THANKING them for being so cooperative when suddenly - BAM! - city halls doors were kicked open and we were surrounded. Our LAPD contacts seemed to be completely unaware this was about to occur. 2. They took DNA samples of some of our arrestees. Cotton-swabbed their mouths. I didn't believe that at first, thought it was a horrible rumor - but have since seen photo documentation. WTF? Why would LAPD or LA CO Sheriff's Dept. need DNA? Can't stop wondering about that...

COMMENT #24 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/3/2011 @ 5:26 pm PT...





Brad, When I read Naomi's original article I anticipated her #1 (get the money out of politics) and her #2 (reform the banking system to prevent fraud and manipulation), but her #3 was news to me. It seemed a stretch her claim that, as you note, OWS is specifically targeting a law which was only revealed by a 60 Minutes piece about 3 weeks ago Although you and Joshua are asserting that Naomi is providing no factual information, the fact is that crackdowns are occurring, and she is providing a plausible motivation for the crackdowns. DHS will be making public annoncements about who is directing the crackdowns. For those interested in identifying the culprits, gathering circumstancial evidence about those with the means and motivation to enforce the crackdowns is the necessary first step. Waiting for a whistleblower to provide concrecte evidence is not realistic. It's never going to happen. Anything that is provided by an insider is guaranteed to be disinformation.

COMMENT #25 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/3/2011 @ 5:33 pm PT...





Jeannie Dean @ 23 said: Our occupyLA media team inquired as to what other law enforcement agencies were on site, and were told NO ONE FROM DHS was involved But, of course, whether they were or weren't doesn't much matter. I'm quite sure that local law enforcement from LAPD on out across the nation, works very closely with DHS. Thus, the DNA swabs you mention (which, I'd think, would be standard process for any arrestee these days, frankly) I'm sure are shared in a national database. but many peeps are reporting that a DHS vehicle was spotted on the perimeter of Solidarity Park the night of our raid. I will try to get photo-documentation of this asap. Here ya go. Leopold sent that to me as the raid was happening Tuesday night. The DHS vehicle was seen, FWIW. There's also a federal building nearby, I believe, so it could have been there for any particular reason. In any case, even if it was in coordination with the LAPD effort, it doesn't serve to prove what Naomi Wolfe had asserted (not that that's why you mentioned it --- but just thought I'd be clear on that, since it follows the related discussion above.)

COMMENT #26 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/3/2011 @ 5:53 pm PT...





GhostOf911 @ 24 said: Although you and Joshua are asserting that Naomi is providing no factual information, the fact is that crackdowns are occurring, and she is providing a plausible motivation for the crackdowns. Do you really think they need a "plausible motivation for the crackdowns?" If so, a) they have long had one (many, in fact) and b) that motivation is no more "plausible", at least publicly, than any other reason that's been forwarded by the bad guys to date to shut down free speech, peaceable assembly and the citizens right to petition their government for redress. DHS will be making public annoncements about who is directing the crackdowns. Is that a typo? Did you mean "will not be making"? I suspect you did. In any case... For those interested in identifying the culprits, gathering circumstancial evidence about those with the means and motivation to enforce the crackdowns is the necessary first step. Waiting for a whistleblower to provide concrecte evidence is not realistic. It's never going to happen. Anything that is provided by an insider is guaranteed to be disinformation. I am as interested in gathering and examining evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, of federal involvement/coordination with OWS crackdowns as anyone else. Thus, as noted in my comment above, I had already been discussing Leopold's FOIA request before he went public with it a week or so later. Gathering and examining evidence about such things, however, is a far cry from asserting, as Naomi did, that "members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent." Had she asked "are members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent?", that might have been appropriate-ish (while still a bit irresponsible to suggest out-loud in a major publication, given the current complete dearth of evidence to support such a serious charge in any way, shape or form), but that's decidedly not what she did. Had she done so, there would not have been anywhere near the amount of response, fervor that there was. We can all suspect anything we like. We can even go searching for evidence to support it. But to report, in a major newspaper, by a highly respected author (one who is deservedly so) that such things are the "shocking truth", when there is ZERO evidence in support of that "shocking truth", is shockingly inappropriate and unhelpful, as far as I'm concerned. But, ya know, I'm one of those "crazy conspiracy theorists" who thinks allegations of any sort, serious or otherwise, ought to be independently verifiable when reported anywhere. But, ya know, I'm one of those "crazy conspiracy theorists" who thinks allegations of any sort, serious or otherwise, ought to be independently verifiable when reported anywhere. And yet, even with that, I'm often regarded as an irresponsible loose cannon by both cynically desperate bad guys who've been caught (and from whom I'd expect it), as well as from supposedly legitimate media (from whom I wouldn't.)

COMMENT #27 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/3/2011 @ 5:55 pm PT...





WoooOOT! Thanks, buddy! K. Confirmed presence of DHS, but no evidence as of yet of any raid coordination, tho' - seems obvious to me - 'course there was. That was a para-military operation I witnessed first hand - couldn't have been more clear that LAPD had some...er...help. ...and REALLY? Swabbing our mouths is the "new norm" for peacefully assembling via our Constitutional 1st amendment rights? Well, that's NEWS to JEANNIE. Filing it under "creepy dreams that will manifest from my subconscious" in the coming months, just so I know where to hang my psyche 'hat'. Great work, Brad, as always. Thank U.

COMMENT #28 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/3/2011 @ 5:56 pm PT...





cmaukonen at the Lake has a dim view of Holland's report. The problem here is that Holland is a known lackey and brown shirt for the democratic establishment and very, very deluded in his view of this countries political motives and ties to the money in Wall Street and other places. He also lists the documented tactics of COINTELPRO which mirror identically the tactics currently being used against OWS.

COMMENT #29 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/3/2011 @ 6:04 pm PT...





Forgive me if you've already linked to this, but here's a very relevant article posted at the occupyLA site from our RUTH FOWLER - one of our best occupyLA bloggers (and GA facilitators): "Let's Get The Facts Straight"

http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/2514 ...I adore her.

COMMENT #30 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/3/2011 @ 6:20 pm PT...





Brad @26 I did leave out the "not." Your points about Naomi's excessive delivery are valid, and unfortunately the focus on those excesses is obscuring her underlying assertion about federal involvement. She gives ammuntion to those (Holland) who wish to kill acceptance of that assertion. Naomi should follow you insistence on independent verifiability a bit more closely so she doesn't wind up leaving herself exposed when she's covering critical topics.

COMMENT #31 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/3/2011 @ 7:30 pm PT...





GhostOf911: Here's the thing. Ad hominem attacks against Holland have nothing to do with the FACTS of this debate or, in the case of Wolfe's assertions, the lack thereof. That kind of kill-the-messenger "debate" technique is straight out of the Rightwing --- or, if you will, the "Brownshirt" --- handbook. As to this... Your points about Naomi's excessive delivery are valid, and unfortunately the focus on those excesses is obscuring her underlying assertion about federal involvement. She gives ammuntion to those (Holland) who wish to kill acceptance of that assertion. The focus is not on the "excesses", it's on the complete lack of evidence to support her central, and very serious, assertions. The questions about DHS/federal involvement in OWS crackdowns were already out there, and were then and are now a perfectly appropriate line of inquiry. I read nothing in either of Holland's responses that attempts to "kill acceptance" of that line of inquiry. Sorry.

COMMENT #32 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/3/2011 @ 8:28 pm PT...





Dredd; Ghost: The core point Brad is making is rather straightforward. Regardless of what we believe or suspect may be happening, be it DHS involvement, or any other issue, the role of a journalist is to report on that which is evidence based. Opinion is cheap; and, where evidence for the opinion is lacking, it is worthless. Facts are priceless. If we were to report something we merely suspect to be true as fact, we would be no different from the MSM. (Of course, over at Fox, they report as fact that which they "know" to be fiction.)

COMMENT #33 [Permalink]

... Caleb said on 12/4/2011 @ 1:05 am PT...





There are three standards of proof for establishing DHS involvement which are applicable here: 1) The legal standard, the most rigorous, which clearly has not been met. 2) The journalistic standard, somewhat less rigorous, which also has not been met. 3) The standard which a thinking citizen can use to draw his or her reasonable conclusions, even in the absence of hard evidence. This has been more than met. The coordinated nature of the raids (LA and Philly in a single night) and their paramilitary character and similarity in tactics indicate a national guiding hand. What is most persuasive of coordination at the top are the numerous communities where local police forces have initially been friendly to the Occupiers, and then turn on a dime against them. This happened in LA, and it is even happening in Albany, where the mayor has until now been an outspoken advocate of the protesters' First Amendment rights in opposition to the hard-headed tactics of Gov. Cuomo.

COMMENT #34 [Permalink]

... JPP said on 12/4/2011 @ 2:02 am PT...





429) Brad Re: Brad @19, 26 &31, Ernest @32 and Caleb@33m, etc. The "paramilitary character and similarity in tactics indicate," if not a proven "national guiding hand" then, perhaps worse, an ingrained, and totally accepted, police state mentality. It is systematically destroying individual rights AND the constitution. Over some 45 years of observing this mentality develop (or has it just been slowly revealing itself?), it is clear that we should ASSUME what Ms Wolf has to offer and proceed accordingly - UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. The point is that there has been essentially NO word (much less any action) from members of Congress or the president to publicly oppose, deplore, condemn or diminish the abuse of the citizens they represent and the constitution they have pledged to protect. This uniform, egregious dereliction of duty and mass violation of the oath of office may not strictly be "a national guiding hand" but is, at best, certainly a complicit (and cowardly) approval of totalitarian rule that transcends a journalistic spitting match. John Puma

COMMENT #35 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 2:44 am PT...





They [187 Occupy folks released without bail] are eligible for a pre-filing diversion program which would permit them to avoid a criminal record by completing a 90 educational program, at a cost of $375 to $400, "given by American Justice Associates focused on the balance between public rights and individual free speech rights" So they have to pay to be indoctrinated? What is it about the First Amendment that LA does not understand. This is a police force that not long ago was, as a matter of course, planting weapons, drugs, and other false evidence on HUNDREDS of proven cases, and perhaps thousands that slipped through the cracks, It got so bad that the DOJ took over under a federal court order, following one judge's finding that "the LAPD is a criminal enterprise".

COMMENT #36 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 3:01 am PT...





David @1, Schizophrenic episodes a la Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde is exactly what to expect from them, because that is exactly what they are. Brad @19 etc., Hey, you can rap for the DHS and LAPD all you want, but you will eventually loose credibility with the Occupy movement. One of the fundamentals is that DHS is fascist at heart, and their only mode of conversation is propaganda. Propaganda has been the coin of the doublespeak realm since about WW I, morphing into corporate propaganda via Bernays about a decade later. Propaganda is a multi-billion dollar profession now, and the government has a Phd. in schmoozing that enterprise. I believe absolutely nothing the government says until they prove it with cold hard facts, then I will consider it with a grain of salt. Stockholm Syndrome is the mechanism that allows the press to cuddle up with them, and the fertilizer that allows them to flourish. I am a citizen journalist who rejects them, in whole and in part, because they have failed America and I will not countenance it in any way shape nor form.

COMMENT #37 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/4/2011 @ 6:03 am PT...





If the mayors are acting entirely on their own, how could it be that after months of allowing OWS encampments, Philadelphia and Los Angeles not only cracked down on the same night, but both set the minimum bail for arestees at $5000? Since getting direct evidence of DHS (i.e., Congress and White House) intervention may be impossible, demonstrating how the crackdowns could NOT occur without that intervention may be a more productive journalistic tactic. Identifying who is promoting the "re-education" program mentioned by Dredd in #35 might be another useful tack.

COMMENT #38 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 7:00 am PT...





Jeannie #22 etc., There is some concern by citizen journalists in the Occupy Movement about the right to video police / DHS activity. One person faces 75 years in prison for photographing the police. The law is clear that citizens can photograph, video, and audio record the police and other government officials doing their public duty at Occupy Movement events.

COMMENT #39 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 7:06 am PT...





ghostof911 @ 37, A major FOIA request is in the works (see Naomi's rebuttal). One is coming soon but it only skims the surface. The other is going full on and may involve litigation to get to the bottom of all of it. It took a few years to get the federal reserve hidden information, so DHS can get ready, cause we are going to stay the course.

COMMENT #40 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 7:14 am PT...





Brad @19, You wrote:

Dredd sedd @ 14: Naomi Wolf meticulously shoots down all of Joshua Holland's bogus claims. Actually I wrote:

Naomi Wolf has replied to the criticism of her post that you mentioned. If you are going to misquote me could you please do it correctly?

COMMENT #41 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 7:39 am PT...





Jeannie @29, Forgive me if you've already linked to this, but here's a very relevant article posted at the occupyLA site from our RUTH FOWLER - one of our best occupyLA bloggers (and GA facilitators) I put a link to Occupy LA on my blog. Thanks.

COMMENT #42 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/4/2011 @ 8:13 am PT...





Caleb @33 wrote: The coordinated nature of the raids (LA and Philly in a single night) and their paramilitary character and similarity in tactics indicate a national guiding hand. 1. There are major distinctions between use of force by various agencies across the country. While we pointed to abuses by LAPD in this article (and, not to be overlooked, abuses by LASD on the buses) they pale in comparison to what we saw in Oakland. 2. Career law enforcement officials at local agencies are quite capable of coming up with the paramilitary tactics we've seen employed at every event without "a national guiding hand." 3. The debate between Brad, on the one hand, and Dredd/ghost on the other pertained solely to whether Naomi Wolfe fell below the journalistic standards that you concede have not been met. That said, I would agree with JPP that the military-industrial complex has had a pernicious impact on an increasingly militarized civil society --- though JPP's limitation to the past 45 years is far too brief. That pernicious impact began during the Truman administration when, instead of reducing our standing armies, cutting expenditures on weapons and bringing all troops home, the U.S. solidified and began expanding its global military presence. President Eisenhower described the pervasive presence of the military-industrial complex in his 1961 Farewell Address. This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence --- economic, political, even spiritual --- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government.

COMMENT #43 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/4/2011 @ 8:33 am PT...





Dredd @36 wrote: Brad @19 etc., Hey, you can rap for the DHS and LAPD all you want, but you will eventually loose credibility with the Occupy movement. Excuse me, Dredd, but I fail to see how Brad's insistence on adhering to fact-based journalism amounts to a "rap for the DHS and LAPD." What you've done is conflate Brad's valid criticism of someone he otherwise admires with having fallen below journalistic standards and a "rap for the DHS." I would respectfully suggest you go back and re-read my previous piece, edited by Brad, Does Arrest Of Former Philadelphia Police Captain at OWS Signal Crack In Corporate Security State? In that piece, you will find a link to Juan Cole's Police Crackdowns on OWS Coordinated among Mayors, FBI, DHS. Cole's piece reflects the type of journalistic endeavor that was missing from Naomi Wolf's article, to wit: A Homeland Security official let it slip in a phone interview that the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security had been strategizing with cities on how to shut down OWS protests. Brad's credibility, like that of any other journalist, is based on his insistence on fact-based reporting. That credibility would be destroyed if it were abandoned in favor of telling you what it is you would like to hear.

COMMENT #44 [Permalink]

... Caleb said on 12/4/2011 @ 8:53 am PT...





Ernest Canning at #42 wrote: "There are major distinctions between use of force by various agencies across the country. While we pointed to abuses by LAPD in this article (and, not to be overlooked, abuses by LASD on the buses) they pale in comparison to what we saw in Oakland." Oakland has a long history of extreme police brutality (the Black Panthers emerged in the 1960s largely in response to this brutality). The LAPD likewise is a historically notorious police force, but at least on the surface it has toned down in recent years following the Rodney King riots. While it is true that the Oakland suppression of Occupy was more obviously brutal, all of the paramilitary raids across the country seem to be cut from a common template. Local variations in brutality, deriving from historical difference between the local police forces, do not change this fact. And as the present blog shows, the LA raid and subsequent police conduct was far more violent than originally believed, involving rubber bullets and gross abuse of prisoners. Ernest Canning further writes: Career law enforcement officials at local agencies are quite capable of coming up with the paramilitary tactics we've seen employed at every event without "a national guiding hand." True. Homeland security has been developing on these tactics with local police forces since 9/11, so they now know how to implement them on their own. Local career law enforcement officials did not independently "come up" with them. They are part of the emergence of the American police state in the last decade. The fact that the "national guiding hand" did not suddenly come into existence with the start of the Occupy movement does not mean it is not there. The relative uniformity (I insist) of the Occupy raids strongly suggest that the guiding hand is there, however it started. Tactics allegedly intended for terrorist dangers are now being used against citizens exercising their First Amendment rights. I would add that the decision to employ these tactics is a governmental one, not one independently made by police forces. As you know, Mayor Jean Quan of Oakland has stated that there were conference calls between mayors (was Homeland Security involved in these calls). (And I believe Quan knows a lot more than she has admitted). This further suggests a pattern of coordination in the police responses. Finally, Canning writes: The debate between Brad, on the one hand, and Dredd/ghost on the other pertained solely to whether Naomi Wolf fell below the journalistic standards that you concede have not been met. Again, true. The point of my post was to clarify that failing to meet the high bar of good journalism does not negate or diminish legitimate suspicions by the citizenry on some level. Brad is commended for keeping his journalism on a high professional level. I would like to add one more observation that, while it may not show a top-down national directive, I find astonishing. This is that, to the best of my knowledge, not one of the so-called "progressives" in Congress has condemned the outrageous paramilitary responses to the Occupations. (Please let me know of exceptions. They would help to restore my expiring faith in American government). Have these legislators been warned to say nothing? Is there Are their silence the result of craven political calculation?

COMMENT #45 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/4/2011 @ 11:35 am PT...





For those who are too young to remember the "police riot" that took place outside the Democratic National Convention in 1968 and believe that the militarized response to OWS is something new, check out this video. and this one: BTW. As I was in Vietnam at the time and our news was heavily censored, I did not learn what really took place until I returned to the U.S. in 1969.

COMMENT #46 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/4/2011 @ 12:10 pm PT...





Caleb @44 wrote: The fact that the "national guiding hand" did not suddenly come into existence with the start of the Occupy movement does not mean it is not there It did not receive much attention at the time because the gringos were not affected, but the May Day crackdown in Los Angeles was a foreshadowing of the current suppression of OWS. The May Day exercise might be considered LAPD's dress rehearsal for what was expected to follow. It is also no accident that those involved with the suppression of OWS are tight-lipped. The pols who might be directing the suppression wish to have it both ways: on the one hand, they want to give voters the impression that they understand the frustration of the Occupiers and so demonstrate faux sympathy; on the other hand, they work to crush the dissent before poses an actual threat to their agenda. It will be worth keeping that in mind while awaiting feedback from the FOIA requests.

COMMENT #47 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 12:37 pm PT...





Ancient @3, Happy birthday!

COMMENT #48 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 12:43 pm PT...





Ernie @21, I guess one can recognize an article published within the UK when "organization" becomes "organisation." Same when "defense" becomes "defence." Never could figure out why the Brits can't write in English. Or are we colonials the ones who are getting the language wrong? It has been said that America and Britain are a family separated by a common language.

COMMENT #49 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 12:51 pm PT...





Ernie @ 32, Dredd; Ghost: The core point Brad is making is rather straightforward. Regardless of what we believe or suspect may be happening, be it DHS involvement, or any other issue, the role of a journalist is to report on that which is evidence based. Opinion is cheap; and, where evidence for the opinion is lacking, it is worthless. Facts are priceless. If we were to report something we merely suspect to be true as fact, we would be no different from the MSM. (Of course, over at Fox, they report as fact that which they "know" to be fiction.) You, a professional lawyer, know of the concept of burden of proof, and why the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard applies to the government, but not to the citizen. It is because our forefathers knew about the mysterious phenomenon "power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely". As a citizen journalist I defer to that principle and require a more strict burden on DHS than I do on Naomi. Especially after a decade of intense and accelerated corruption in our government.

COMMENT #50 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 1:05 pm PT...





Ernie @43, Brad's credibility, like that of any other journalist, is based on his insistence on fact-based reporting. That credibility would be destroyed if it were abandoned in favor of telling you what it is you would like to hear. As a professional lawyer, representing LAPD's finest at times, you understand why government officials, i.e. judges, do not decide guilt or innocence, the citizen journalist in the format of an jury does so. Again, the reason is because power corrupts and the citizens are not exposed to power like government officials are, so they are less likely to be corrupted by power. That mysterious phenomenon does unimaginable, mysterious things to the human mind and soul, thus those exposed to it begin to generate their own facts and reality, totally divorced from the reality of the citizenry. That chamber even began to plot against Brad and his family not long ago, which axiomatically exposes Brad to the pulls of Stockholm Syndrome. So he needs to jog a bit and stay thirsty my friend.

COMMENT #51 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/4/2011 @ 1:23 pm PT...





Great thread discussion - appreciate all the comments and links here, Brad-Tribe. Thanks. UPDATE re: OccupyLA detainees - we still have 49 fellow occupiers being held in what we can only assume are deplorable and inhumane conditions. We were alarmed to learn they have been transferred to the LA COUNTY JAIL - which is notorious for it's brutal treatment of detainees. We have been told they will be released, pending very high bail and COLLATERAL put forth on their behalf (?), on Monday (tomorrow?). Of the 49 - one is a felon, and therefore can not be extricated, 3-4 others are being held on "priors", but the other 44-45 have NO PRIOR RECORD an yet they are still being detained. We had two arrests yesterday. One at our march to Pershing Square - my friend Anthony (the most peaceful and active occupier I know - one of our best fascilitators / also a voice of reason on our "keepin' it real" committee) was arrested yesterday afternoon. I am unclear on the details, but I understand he was arrested out of the blue for not moving his bike onto the "sidewalk" per LAPD commands. As anyone who bikes here in Los Angeles knows, riding your bike on the sidewalks here is punishable by fine & could also lead to arrest in certain cases. I'm guessing Anthony is one of those cases. His bail has been set at 10,000. Not sure where they took him, but I think it was Metro Detention Center... The other arrest occurred after I left our GA last night - I left at 11:15 - arrest happened approx 45 minutes later when 10 - 15 protestors were told by increasing numbers of LAPD that they would be risking arrest if they didn't move off the west steps of city hall by midnight. But...the mayor said we could use those steps for our GA's / public assemblies anytime we wanted. To my knowledge there were no stipulations, no restrictions, no hours of operation mentioned in that offer...

COMMENT #52 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/4/2011 @ 1:32 pm PT...





One brave protestor, decided to test the limits of his first amendment rights in accordance with the kind, (but rescinded?) offer to occupiers put forth by our mayor - he took his sign up onto the second landing of the city hall steps and began marching back and forth, by himself, in front of a line of 13-16 LAPD. They got him almost immediately, while our remaining members of GA sang Christmas Carols. Great video from our OCCUPYFREEDOMLA, here: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18921211 ...I can't believe I had JUST LEFT. Got home and BAM! Another arrest. (arrest is at the 15:58 mark)

COMMENT #53 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/4/2011 @ 1:37 pm PT...





Ernest / Brad - how can they legally keep my friends detained this long after arrest for a MISDEMEANOR CHARGE? We do have our NLG lawyers working around the clock, I'm told, along with our occupier DAVID (seen in video above with an update) who are trying desperately to confirm the identities of our remaining detainees, currently being held in COUNTY JAIL - at the mercy of those thuggy Sheriffs... ...I'm so very concerned.

COMMENT #54 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/4/2011 @ 2:39 pm PT...





Jeannie @51, "they have been transferred to the LA COUNTY JAIL - which is notorious for it's brutal treatment of detainees" Been there as a political prisoner myself on my way to a federal prison as a political prisoner ("in a prior life"). This is a cool thread like those long, long ones we used to have BCE (Before Comments by EErnie) He is a worthy contributor now as Brad's law man. Citizen Journalists Rule!

COMMENT #55 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/4/2011 @ 3:50 pm PT...





GhostOf911 said @ 37: Since getting direct evidence of DHS (i.e., Congress and White House) intervention may be impossible, demonstrating how the crackdowns could NOT occur without that intervention may be a more productive journalistic tactic. I'm pretty sure you've got a double negative there. I think you meant "demonstrating how the crackdowns could occur WITHOUT that intervention may be a more productive..." On that presumption, 1) Ernie's videos of 1968, posted above, look purdy darn familiar and 2) It's already been fairly well established, originally by Oakland Mayor Jean Quan, that some 18 Mayors were commisserating on a conference call (or two conference cals) about how to do with the issue, just before they all started their various crackdowns, and that there was also a conference call among police departments around the country facilitated by the Police consultancy/membership group PERF. Those calls, in which ideas were shared, about how best to proceed (as those idiots saw it) could very well explain how all of the crackdowns could occur WITHOUT intervention by Congress and/or White House. GhostOf911 said @ 46: It did not receive much attention at the time because the gringos were not affected, but the May Day crackdown in Los Angeles was a foreshadowing of the current suppression of OWS. The May Day exercise might be considered LAPD's dress rehearsal for what was expected to follow. For the record, this gringo followed the LA May Day Melee very closely at the time. First, as the story was breaking in 2007, several times thereafter, and right on up to the $13 million settlement with victims that LAPD agreed to in 2009. We also noted it several times in our recent coverage of Occupy LA --- including on the night of last week's raid --- explaining that some of the less than horrible behavior by LAPD had been attributed, by some, to the department being "haunted by the 2007 May Day Riots".

COMMENT #56 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/4/2011 @ 4:00 pm PT...





My nomination for the most absurd comment above would have to go to this one from Dredd @ 50: That mysterious phenomenon does unimaginable, mysterious things to the human mind and soul, thus those exposed to it begin to generate their own facts and reality, totally divorced from the reality of the citizenry. That [U.S. C]hamber [of Commerce] even began to plot against Brad and his family not long ago, which axiomatically exposes Brad to the pulls of Stockholm Syndrome. Well, there you have it. The reason I have been pointing out that there is ZERO evidence to support Naomi Wolfe's assertion (which Dredd still apparently supports), that "members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent", is not because there is actually ZERO actual evidence of members of Congress with collusion of the President sending violent, organized suppression against OWS, but because I am suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll check in to the hospital immediately. But what was that part you mentioned above that about "generat[ing ones] own facts and reality, totally divorced from...reality" again?

COMMENT #57 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/4/2011 @ 4:12 pm PT...





Jeannie Dean said @ 51: last night...protestors were told by...LAPD that they would be risking arrest if they didn't move off the west steps of city hall by midnight. But...the mayor said we could use those steps for our GA's / public assemblies anytime we wanted. To my knowledge there were no stipulations, no restrictions, no hours of operation mentioned in that offer FWIW, Mayor Villaraigosa noted before his closure of City Hall Park as of 12:01 am one week ago Monday [emphasis added]: During the park rehabilitation, the Spring Street steps of City Hall will remain open during park hours for the Occupy LA movement and other organizations that wish to exercise their freedom of speech. Love, from Stockholm,

Brad

COMMENT #58 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/4/2011 @ 4:26 pm PT...





Jeannie Dean said @ 52: One brave protestor...took his sign up onto the second landing of the city hall steps and began marching back and forth, by himself, in front of a line of 13-16 LAPD. They got him almost immediately...Great video from our OCCUPYFREEDOMLA, here: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18921211 Wow. That's an awesome use of tax payer dollars. How many LAPD cops do they have lined up up there to keep people from peacefully demonstrating instead of actually, ya know, fighting crime and stuff? Idiots.

COMMENT #59 [Permalink]

... Caleb said on 12/4/2011 @ 5:15 pm PT...





Brad writes at #56: "It's already been fairly well established, originally by Oakland Mayor Jean Quan, that some 18 Mayors were commisserating on a conference call (or two conference cals) about how to do with the issue, just before they all started their various crackdowns, and that there was also a conference call among police departments around the country facilitated by the Police consultancy/membership group PERF. Those calls, in which ideas were shared, about how best to proceed (as those idiots saw it) could very well explain how all of the crackdowns could occur WITHOUT intervention by Congress and/or White House." Possible, but this still doesn't explain why cities which have shown support of the Occupiers (such as Albany, whose mayor, Gerald Jennings has shown courage in opposing Gov. Cuomo's plans for a raid) suddenly turn against them. Now we read that Albany police are planning to raid the camp, using the typical excuse of municipal code violations. There is a strong sense of outside pressure. Whether it comes from the President, Congress, Homeland Security acting on its own, or elsewhere we cannot, of course, know at this point.

COMMENT #60 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/4/2011 @ 5:16 pm PT...





Brad @55 I was around in '68 and I witnessed the activities in Chicago in real time on the TeeVee. Hoped I wouldn't be around to see a replay. Ha. Regarding the mayors' conference calls and the PERF conference calls, the obvious question is, who/what prompted those calls? some of the less than horrible behavior by LAPD had been attributed, by some, to the department being "haunted by the 2007 May Day Riots". LAPD did learn their lesson from the $13 million settlement. They no longer carry out their operations in broad daylight, and they now do their best to prevent media cameras for being present "where the action is."

COMMENT #61 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/4/2011 @ 5:27 pm PT...





Caleb @59 Add to the list of once-accomodating mayors who turned into persecutors, minority mayors Michael Nutter of Philadelphia and Antonio Villaraigosa of Los Angeles. One would expect Wall Street insider Michael Bloomberg to relish clearing the rabble from the sacred confines of lower Manhattan, but one wouldn't expect Nutter and Villaraigosa to relish that role. What could have persuaded them to change their positions?

COMMENT #62 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/4/2011 @ 5:43 pm PT...





More occupyLA detainee testimony, now video archived on the occupyLA website, here: http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/2609

COMMENT #63 [Permalink]

... ghostof911 said on 12/4/2011 @ 5:58 pm PT...





Jeannie Dean @62 Very moving testimonies from noble people. Thanks for posting.

COMMENT #64 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/4/2011 @ 8:17 pm PT...





Extremely powerful video, JD. Thanks.

COMMENT #65 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/4/2011 @ 8:22 pm PT...





For what it's worth-- I just read the whole Wolf/Holland back and forth. Took a year and a half. Wolf seems a bit incoherent and hysterical to me. Holland the much more credible witness and reporter in this instance. Ernie--thanks for the heads-up on the Lucifer Effect. I'll look for that info somewhere else. All I kept getting at that link were little Dr. Phil soundbite clips. Had to immediately rush out for some dramamine.

COMMENT #66 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/4/2011 @ 8:39 pm PT...





David Lasagna @65. Don't understand why you got the Dr. Phil soundbites, David. I checked the link and its good. Ernie

COMMENT #67 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/5/2011 @ 6:29 am PT...





Brad @56, You wrote:

My nomination for the most absurd comment above would have to go to this one from Dredd @ 50 ... because [Dredd sedd] I am suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. You haven't stopped misquoting me yet. I wrote:

... exposes Brad to the pulls of Stockholm Syndrome. Yes Brad, some in the government believe and have stated in public:

''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality --- judiciously, as you will --- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' (Quote of High Gov. Official To NYT). They are the ones that make up "facts" and "reality", and spend billions on propaganda to do so. The Chamber of Corruption attacked you and your family, according to your own posts on your own blog. If you believe you cannot be exposed to Stockholm Syndrome by such abuse, be careful, because the facts are, and the reality is that you can.

COMMENT #68 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/5/2011 @ 9:08 am PT...





Don't take it personally Occupy:

Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they're fighting a "war," and the consequences are predictable. These policies have taken a toll. Among the victims of increasingly aggressive and militaristic police tactics: Cheye Calvo, the mayor of Berwyn Heights, Md., whose dogs were killed when Prince George's County police mistakenly raided his home; 92-year-old Katherine Johnston, who was gunned down by narcotics cops in Atlanta in 2006; 11-year-old Alberto Sepulveda, who was killed by Modesto, Calif., police during a drug raid in September 2000; 80-year-old Isaac Singletary, who was shot by undercover narcotics police in 2007 who were attempting to sell drugs from his yard; Jonathan Ayers, a Georgia pastor shot as he tried to flee a gang of narcotics cops who jumped him at a gas station in 2009; Clayton Helriggle, a 23-year-old college student killed during a marijuana raid in Ohio in 2002; and Alberta Spruill, who died of a heart attack after police deployed a flash grenade during a mistaken raid on her Harlem apartment in 2003. Most recently, voting rights activist Barbara Arnwine was raided by a SWAT team in Prince George's County, Md., on Nov. 21. The police appear to have raided the wrong house. (Huffington Post). The thought, sentiment, or statment "they are only protecting us" is a meme associated with Stockholm Syndrome. It is bad because it helps spread the dis ease.

COMMENT #69 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/5/2011 @ 10:36 am PT...





Thanks, Ernie, I'll try some more. It's probably just my learned helplessness which loves popping up when I'm doing computer related activities. I just kept clicking on the 1st most obvious things. It's probably just some other click there. I'll find it.

COMMENT #70 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/5/2011 @ 11:47 am PT...





I confess that my friends and I tend to be arrogant and presumptuous. Some of us even joke about it. But Dredd @67 is taking Arrogant Presumption up a couple of notches. Arrogant and Presumptuous as an Olympic sport?

COMMENT #71 [Permalink]

... Ska-T said on 12/5/2011 @ 1:45 pm PT...





They are eligible for a pre-filing diversion program which would permit them to avoid a criminal record by completing a 90 educational program, at a cost of $375 to $400, given by American Justice Associates focused on the balance between public rights and individual free speech rights. Beyond the obvious irony, how is this pre-filing coercion even legal (I naively ask)? If the city or county wants to save money by avoiding legal proceedings then they should pay the brainwashing fees. It is also a tool to squash further protest. From the American Justice Associates web page (a private company): If the defendant is charged with a new offense within a year ... the filing of the original criminal charge will take place.

COMMENT #72 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/5/2011 @ 3:05 pm PT...





David @70, "I confess that my friends and I tend to be arrogant and presumptuous" "But Dredd @67 is taking Arrogant Presumption up a couple of notches" Confessing for your "friends"? Uh, warning someone that they are exposed to something is a kind thing to do. kind = arrogant

peace = war

submission = freedom Now, do your duty and turn them in for your reward for being a good citizen?

COMMENT #73 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/5/2011 @ 3:18 pm PT...





Dredd sedd @ 67: You haven't stopped misquoting me yet. Actually, I quoted you verbatim! You, on the other hand, actually quoted me out of context, by writing: You wrote: My nomination for the most absurd comment above would have to go to this one from Dredd @ 50 ... because [Dredd sedd] I am suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Luckily, comment #67 is right up at this link, so folks can read what I actually wrote, versus how you misquoted me, when you inaccurately said I misquoted you! Yeesh, Dredd. To accurately quote you, yet again, from the same post I accurately quoted you verbatim on above, please stop "generat[ing your] own facts and reality"! Thanks.

COMMENT #74 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/5/2011 @ 5:56 pm PT...





Dredd @ 72, I don't know you and this is email. Maybe those factors are contributing to an especially weird dialogue. I dunno. I have no idea what you're getting at in your response to me. (For the record I was not referring to my friends here. Though in my own head I consider Brad, Ernie, and Jeannie Dean my friends, I've never actually met any of them. I was referring to longtime friends that I've known multi-dimensionally.) I included a "confession" in my comment as an attempt at a sorta interpersonal literary device. Since I was about to call you arrogant and presumptuous because I thought you were writing nonsense about Brad, I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't singling you out as the only person on the planet guilty of an occasional weird or out of line attitude. Where you then proceeded to run with my comment is some field of play I'm not not sure I know how play on.

COMMENT #75 [Permalink]

... Alec Marken said on 12/6/2011 @ 2:32 am PT...





It is time for the mayor and police chief to STEP DOWN IN SHAME. I suggest a recall!

COMMENT #76 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 12/6/2011 @ 5:07 am PT...





I love you all ~ FWIW - Dredd, Brad, Ernest, and my most cherished Lasagna...hope this thread INVIGORATES and ELUCIDATES our combined collaborative efforts... 8 of my friends,my occupiers, still incarcerated in LA COUNTY JAIL...so worried about them *and my homeless occupiers* I find it hard to sleep... Mad love, Brad-Tribe; please don't fight amongst yourselves...plenty to fight outside our small-ish, conflicted group of HEROES...

COMMENT #77 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 12/6/2011 @ 6:40 am PT...





re David Lasagna @70. Don't know what you are like in person, but from reading numerous comments you've left at The BRAD BLOG, one could not even begin to fairly describe you as "arrogant" or "presumptuous." I've found your comments to be thoughtful, humble, and open-minded. Often you've displayed a far greater level of patience than I when it comes to those who post comments that tend towards the disingenuous.

COMMENT #78 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/6/2011 @ 10:40 am PT...





Ernie, Thank you so much for the kind words. I try hard here. And Brad has been an excellent role model for not losing one's shit on those with differing views. But I can assure you I have an arrogant, presumptuous, and at times assholish side. I can only hope that we can hang out in person sometime so I can show you. I'm half-Italian and a Scorpio. Bit of a hothead. With your kind words I'll continue to aspire to improve and am delighted to hear I've had at least some measure of success in coming across the way I'd like to. And Jeannie Dean--thanks for the continuing love. I feel like I get so much more here than in the wild and wacky world of projection and hallucination that is internet dating. Hilarious.

COMMENT #79 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/6/2011 @ 4:42 pm PT...





Hey Ernie, Finally read about the Stanford Prison Experiment. Thanks. Interesting stuff. I'd like to know exactly what the participants were told going into it. Might have to get that book to find out more. Reminiscent of the Milgram Experiment. I like the way Zinn has pointed out that there were a fair number of people who DID NOT go along with authority on that one. I see that Zimbardo had the good sense to marry the one person who didn't go along with what was going on in his. That's one of the things that's so tremendously exciting about the Occupy Movement. It's thousands of people all over the country, all over the world, basically saying again and again out loud and out loud that they don't want to go along with the experiment anymore. And naming the experiment. And naming it again. And naming it again. And not going away. Completely thrilling. In a way it's a dream come true.

COMMENT #80 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/7/2011 @ 11:31 am PT...





Brad @73, I said you were exposed to the dangers of Stockholm Syndrome, because you were targeted by the Chamber of Corruption, not that you were going to die of or contract Stockholm Syndrome. People exposed to germs do not always develop the sickness, depending on their immune system. That applies to Stockholm Syndrome too. Again, I only said you were "exposed", but in response you said you were going to go to the hospital right away (in sarcasm). Anyone and everyone in the USA is or will be exposed to Stockholm Syndrome by the activities of our government. G. Lakoff, a left leaning scholar, as well as neoCon psychologists, point out that adults transpose government with parents as a matter of course. Stockholm Syndrome, in its most fundamental essence, is the rejecting of anything that would try to change the view of that parental realm from heavenly to devilish (in any degree). You published on your blog a glowing report of the heavenly activities of LA in their treatment of the Occupy LA folks. I merely said you had been exposed to Stockholm Syndrome, ostensibly by the plot of the Chamber of Corruption that had targeted you and your family well before OWS arrived. You reacted by indicating sarcastically that you would be checking into the hospital right away. It is like saying your shit does not stink.

COMMENT #81 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 12/7/2011 @ 11:33 am PT...





David & Ernie, I can hear you guys slapping each other on the back and who knows what else all the way from LA LA land. You crack me up dudes.

COMMENT #82 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 12/7/2011 @ 1:28 pm PT...





Dredd sedd @ 80 I said you were exposed to the dangers of Stockholm Syndrome, because you were targeted by the Chamber of Corruption, not that you were going to die of or contract Stockholm Syndrome. You do realize they didn't take me hostage, but rather were plotting to target me and my family with a disinfo, spying campaign, right? I've been "exposed" to utter foolishness here in comments many times, as well. It doesn't make me either a fool, or a hostage to such foolishness. You published on your blog a glowing report of the heavenly activities of LA in their treatment of the Occupy LA folks. Don't know if I'd call it "glowing", but I would call it accurate, as based on the 10 hours or so of live coverage I was able to follow from many many different sources from dusk to the following dawn that night. The bulk of the mistreatment of citizens took place (artfully) outside of camera/media range, to citizens who were scooped up and carted off and, thus, incommunicado from media, where the LA County Sheriff Dept. seems to have doled out the bulk of the inappropriate behavior. It was only several days later that the breadth of inappropriate behavior by both LAPD and LASD began to emerge. It is still emerging, and we are still investigating and reporting it. If you have a specific quibble with the accuracy of anything we reported either during the raid or in the days after, I'm sure you'll point it out. Thank you, in any case, for not misquoting me this time in your comment, even while inaccurately charging that I had misquoted you, as you did in your previous comment.

COMMENT #83 [Permalink]

... David Lasagna said on 12/7/2011 @ 10:18 pm PT...

