EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: Until January of this year, James Clapper was the Director of Intelligence in the US. He's in Australia as a visiting Professor at the Australian National University and he'll give an address at the Opera House later this month.\

He joined me earlier from Canberra.

James Clapper appreciate the time you're taking to speak to us tonight.

JAMES CLAPPER, FMR US DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE: Thank you very much for having me.

EMMA ALBERICI: You said today something that I think stunned a lot of people in that Watergate pales in comparison to scandal engulfing President Trump at the moment.

I'm curious to know what evidence you're aware of in particular of collusion between Trump and Russia?

JAMES CLAPPER: Actually, I'm not aware of any evidence directly of political collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

That's not to say there wasn't any, or that there isn't any evidence of it. It's just that I, I'm not aware of any.

EMMA ALBERICI: You called James Comey today the ex-FBI chief, a personal friend and a hero to you.

How explosive do you expect his testimony to be this week?

JAMES CLAPPER: Well, that's a great question. I don't know. I do think he will be somewhat tempered by whatever guidelines that have been worked out between him and former Director Mueller who now is of course a special counsel.

And so I can't say what he will say or what he won't say. I do know that there is great anticipation about this hearing and what he might say. Could be very significant.

EMMA ALBERICI: Assuming Moscow did interfere in the election, why did Vladimir Putin want Donald Trump as President?

JAMES CLAPPER: Well I think it starts and by the way there's no assumption in my mind the evidence that we had which we could not publicly divulge was incontrovertible, that they did interfere, there was absolutely... on a multidimensional basis.

The first objective that the Russians had generally and Putin specifically which was to sow discord, discontent and to disrupt our political process and I think the Russians were eminently successful in doing that.

Secondarily was a very, very strong animus for the Clintons, both former President Clinton as well as Secretary Clinton, on the part of Putin - and this was personal on the part of Putin's part - he held Secretary Clinton responsible for what he thought was an attempted colour revolution in 2011.

So a very, very strong animus towards them, and as a consequence grew to favour now President Trump because he's a businessman and the thought was this would be someone else, someone with whom they could deal and perhaps would not push issues such as human rights so strongly.

So those are sort of the objectives as they evolved over the course of the campaign.

EMMA ALBERICI: If a collusion is established incontrovertibly between Donald Trump and the Russians, vis-a-vis the election and its outcome, would that be grounds for having Donald Trump removed from office?

JAMES CLAPPER: That is a crucial question. And it's one I will defer to legal authorities. That's a question for lawyers to decide and I really shouldn't speculate on that.

EMMA ALBERICI: On his visit last week John McCain said Russia posed a bigger threat to the US than Islamic State. I'm curious to know whether you agree and what you think we should be scared of?

JAMES CLAPPER: Well, I do agree with that. I think Russia poses a far more profound threat than does ISIS. Russia for the United States is an existential threat.

As I commented in my remarks today to the National Press Club, something that I think many Americans don't keep in perspective is the very impressive and in my mind disturbing modernisation of strategic nuclear forces Russia has embarked on despite their economic challenges.

They've invested heavily in a counterspace program which is in direct recognition of our reliance on space.

And by the way they are in active violation of the intermediate nuclear forces agreement, the INF treaty.

EMMA ALBERICI: You drew a parallel today between the Russia-American relationship and the Australia-China relationship in terms of the threats and risks that lie within those relationships.

Is there a risk do you think that Australia is becoming too conflicted in terms of being able to criticise China's bad behaviour because of the enormous economic dependency we now have given Beijing is our biggest trading partner?

JAMES CLAPPER: I think that is a concern. I do think, though, that certainly the leadership of Australia understands the importance of protecting Australia's security, its sovereignty, while at the same time attending to its economy and I think there are lines that can be drawn, particularly with respect to attempts to interfere politically with legitimate economic interactions.

EMMA ALBERICI: Because the United States doesn't allow political donations from foreign powers, is that correct?

JAMES CLAPPER: That's correct.

EMMA ALBERICI: And so were you surprised by the level of, that kind of economic relationship between our political leaders and the Chinese?

JAMES CLAPPER: Well, after 50-plus years in intelligence profession, I don't get surprised too often.

So, no, it doesn't surprise me. And I think perhaps that's opened some eyes here in Australia. The public revelations and that's a good thing.

EMMA ALBERICI: China is becoming more aggressive we know in its territorial claims in the South China Sea, do you think Australia, indeed the United States, should be confronting that in a much more muscular way?

JAMES CLAPPER: Well, I think, I'm not quite sure what you mean by muscular. I do think that we should collectively - and it's not only Australia, not only the US - but the ASEAN countries in the region have a big stake in freedom of navigation, whether maritime or air, given the importance that the South China Sea has strategically for international commerce.

So I think the strength to the extent that these nations can speak on a consensus basis, I think this would have huge impact on China.

And so I think more muscular response politically and diplomatically is a first order business, rather than militarily.

EMMA ALBERICI: I want to speak to you about terrorism given the events of the past several weeks. Specifically as the Islamic State group becomes disempowered in its home bases of Iraq and Syria, are we in danger - Australia I mean - of seeing a threat much closer to home emerge, given we're already seeing a build-up of Islamic State strength in the Philippines, indeed in Indonesia?

JAMES CLAPPER: I don't know that they picked a geographic preference. I think they will prosletyse and recruit wherever they can.

And by the way, I do want to convoy heart-felt condolences for the losses that Australia has suffered recently at the hands of terrorism and these heinous and mindless acts. As I did at the Press Club today, I do want to convey condolences and prayers to next of kin and loved ones.

I think as ISIS is reduced as a nation state like entity, as it loses territory, as it loses infrastructure, as it loses fighters, as it loses military equipment, which it has, that it will revert more to a classical insurgency and more classic clandestine or covert terrorist organisation.

And will continue to capitalise on one of its great strengths, is the use of the cyber domain to recruit, to incite, and to proselytise.

And so this is something that collectively we have to be vigilant about. And of course in our country, the major challenges has not so much been thwarting external threats, plots, although that is still a major concern, but it is thwarting the so-called home-grown violent extremists that are already American citizens who are caught up in this twisted ideology and perversion of the Islam, Muslim religion.

EMMA ALBERICI: And just finally, I wanted to get your opinion on what we're seeing is efforts to isolate Qatar in the Gulf region and Donald Trump now tweeting in support of that.

Are you concerned given Qatar is a hub for US military air operations, indeed for Australian military operations?

JAMES CLAPPER: Well, I think Qataris have done a lot in the past to end or add least reduce the support to extremists, particularly financial support, but they've also been a supporter. They allow us to operate bases, a base in Qatari so I think I'm not sure that isolating them if that's the objective here is necessarily a good thing. I think we need to be as inclusive with as many countries as possible to participate in a coalition of the willing, if you will, against extremism.

EMMA ALBERICI: James Clapper, we have to leave it there. Thank you for your time.

JAMES CLAPPER: Thanks for having me.