Thanks to Sarah Gristwood for taking some time out to talk to us about her new book, Game of Queens. It looks at Europe’s ruling women in the 16th century – there are a surprising amount!

Learn more about Sarah at her website: http://sarahgristwood.com/

Purchase some of Sarah’s books here. They are all so well researched, and so interesting.

Game of Queens: The Women Who Made Sixteenth-Century Europe (amazon affiliate link for US version)

UK version, click here.

Elizabeth and Leicester: The Truth about the Virgin Queen and the Man She Loved (US affiliate link)

UK version, click here.

Blood Sisters: The Women Behind the Wars of the Roses (US affiliate link)

UK version, click here.

Other Resources:

The Monstrous Regiment of Women: Female Rulers in Early Modern Europe (Queenship and Power) by Sharon Jansen

The Rise of Female Kings in Europe by William Monter

Warrior Queens from Antonia Fraser

Sarah Gristwood talking about Amy Dudley and Leicester

Very Rough Transcript for: Sarah Gristwood on Game of Queens

Speaker 1: (00:00)

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: (00:11)

Hello and welcome to the Renaissance English history podcast. I’m your host, Heather Tesco. And I’m a storyteller who makes history accessible because I believe it’s a pathway to understanding who we are, our place in the universe and our own humanity. Today. I’m talking with Sarah Gristwood, a notable tutor and Royal author about her new book game of Queens, which is a fascinating look at the women who ruled 16th century Europe. Just a couple of quick notes before we get started. Have you bought your 2017 diary or planner yet? If not, I’ve got a tutor. Terrific deal for you. Yes, I seriously just said two. Terrific. I said it. Oh my goodness. So go to tutor, planner.com, tutor, planner, and check out the planner that I’ve designed. It’s got monthly and weekly pages and it’s full of tutor history this week and tutor history. This month quotes from tutors that we love and musical listening suggestions with a special playlist that you can go to.

Speaker 2: (01:12)

So you can get it in hardcover paperback. They’re going to be shipped in December in time for Christmas, if you order early and there’s also a PDF printable, so you can go to tutor, planner.com and check it out. Also the Renaissance English history podcast is a proud member of the Gora podcast network and the Gora podcast of the month is the history of Islam. It’s a really interesting look at Muslim history at Islamic history, and you can find it at history of Islam, podcast.blogspot.com or all of the normal usual podcast, deep places. So finally, I’ve got links going up on the England cast.com site for all of Sarah’s information links to her books, everything like that. So go to England cast.com for that. So let me introduce you to Sarah crest with now she’s a bestselling tutor, biographer, former film journalist and commentator on Royal affairs.

Speaker 2: (02:08)

After leaving Oxford, Sarah grist would begin work as a journalist writing at first about the theater, as well as general features on everything from gun control to Giorgio Armani, but increasingly she found herself specializing in film interviews, Johnny Depp, and Robert narrow Martin Scorsese and Paul McCartney. And she has appeared in most of the UKs leading newspapers, the times the guardian, the Telegraph daily and Sunday and magazines from cosmopolitan to country living and sight and sound to the new statesman, turning to history. She wrote to best-selling tutor. Biographies are Bella. England’s lost queen and Elizabeth and Leicester in September, 2012. She brought out a new nonfiction book, blood sisters, the women behind the Wars of the roses, which is also quite fabulous. I have to say, and game of Queens has just come out. She’s a regular media commentator on Royal and historical. She was one of the team providing radio four’s live coverage of the Royal wedding.

Speaker 2: (03:03)

And has since spoken on the Queens, do you believe the Royal baby and other Royal stories for sky news women’s hour radio five live and the CBC shortlisted for both the Marsh biography award and Ben Pimlott prize for political writing. She is a fellow of the RSA and an honorary patron of historic Royal palaces. She and her husband, the film critic, Derek Malcolm live in London and Kent. Sarah, thank you so much for being on the Renaissance English history podcast. I’m so excited to talk with you about your new book game of Queens. And I would thought to start with, if you could give us kind of a basic introduction to the book, why you wrote it and sort of some of the changes and developments in the role of Queens in this time period.

Speaker 3: (03:50)

Mm well, the 16th century or the long 16th century, if you like, you know, from the 1480s through to the death of Elizabeth in the first in 1603 was a real age of Queens, large chunks of Europe were under the hand of either a queen regnant or a female Regent. And that bit about in Europe is important because that’s what really struck me. We all in England and, you know, the English speaking countries we know about the tutors we know about the Stewarts, but we don’t know so much about what’s happening in the non English speaking countries basically. And yet those, those women in continental Europe had a huge influence, not only on their own lands, but also on our Queens. And that’s rather got forgotten today. When I began looking at this, this subject, I was really struck also about the connections between the women, you know, about how lessons in power and how to use it. Must’ve passed from mother to daughter, a mentor to protege, and this really quite surprising links there.

Speaker 2: (05:03)

It seems like a lot of the changes with queenship were sort of wrapped up in, in the religious changes as well. That’s another huge theme of the century. And I’m just thinking, when you talked about mentor and mentee, protege, and mothers and daughters about, you know, Anne Boleyn being cast as a Protestant and being raised perhaps in a more humanist way, and then Katherine with her mother bringing in the inquisition in Spain. And I just kind of wonder how religious tensions kind of tie in with some of these changes.

Speaker 3: (05:39)

Yeah, I think there’s a huge link there. I mean, I really do see the religious differences as having brought an end to that age of Queens because earlier in the 16th, 16th century, women really could have huge links across nations, Margaret of Austria, for example, who would be not own, you know, she was, she was herself brought up by [inaudible] the region of France. Her mother-in-law was Isabella of Castile in Spain, but then she, she, she was by then sister-in-law to Catherine and Aragon and would later help Catherine of error then, you know, get legal advice for her troubles with Henry. But at the same time, Margaret of Austria helped raise on Berlin and Belinda was at her court for a very important year or so. So early in the century, you’ve got all these links and those are Berlin and Catherine of Aragon had huge links to the continent, but by the latter part of the century, think about the two daughters, um, that had really gone. And the reason is I think religion, religion is what separated, not only married to you to, but Elizabeth from Elizabeth Tudor, her half sister, but Elizabeth Tudor thrum most of the rulers on the female powerful women on the continent. Uh, and of course, you know, it, it was what made it impossible for her to live with Mary queen of Scots. I really do see the religious divisions of the century as ripping apart the bonds between women

Speaker 2: (07:24)

And something you mentioned there with these bonds. I was really interested in, um, the ladies piece that you talked about early on. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker 3: (07:34)

Absolutely. Yeah, no, I agree. It’s fascinating. In fact, that was one of the real first sort of keys for the book coming across this thing of which I’d never heard the ladies piece of camera in 1529, because it was celebrated between Margaret of Austria. The one about whom I’ve just been speaking and Louise of Savoy. So Margaret of Austria was Regent of the Netherlands on behalf of her nephew, Charles, the fifth Louisa civil, it was the mother of the French King from swather first. Who’d also acted as his Regent when he was away. And those two, I mean, obviously the Habsburgs and France with a patchouli and Matina, that was the other big theme of the 16th century. But at this point, you know, the end of the 1520s, the two women got together and there are actually letters from Margaret of Austria to Louise, with Savoy talking about how difficult it would be for the men, because they had their own sense of honor to consider, which is a polite way of saying, you know, they were going to be posturing young bucks basically, but how easy it were for ladies to come forth in such an undertaking, essentially that if they kept their young men out of the way, they, to the women and actually three women, because Louise brought her daughter, Margaret of Navarre could settle down and get the business sorted as indeed they do.

Speaker 2: (09:06)

Hmm. Yeah. And can you tell me a little bit about that? Like what they were able to find? Yeah,

Speaker 3: (09:11)

Well, yeah. Well, Margaret, Margaret of Austria and Louisa Savoy had known each other in youth because, um, they, they, they had both been brought up partly in the care of that powerful French Regent and the bougie, a woman who actually wrote a manual of instruction lessons for my daughter, a manual instruction for powerful women. So they’d known each other in childhood. Then one of Margaret’s three marriages had made her Louise’s sister-in-law. So while on the one hand, one was Habsburg, one was French, they were on opposite sides of, you know, a political divide on the other. They had all these old, it must’ve been shared memories, shared alliances. And I think the, I think that’s really important. You see that time and time again, and you do see the women quite consciously calling those ties into play. I mean, the battle of, sorry, we’re skipping, skipping a, a, a nation, but the battle of flooding between England and Scotland, where Catherine of Aragon acting as Regent in the absence of her husband, Henry the eighth sent the English army is North to massacre. The Scottish arm is at flooding Margaret Tudor, Catherine sister-in-law Henry the eighth sister said that if only she and Catherine of Aaron, Oregon could have met before the battle, perhaps it could have been avoided.

Speaker 2: (10:40)

Mm yeah, it’s interesting because you brought up [inaudible] and I was really interested in that manual. She wrote and how she talked about how widows should try to keep their power and, and, you know, not be pushed into marriage as easily, or just be really aware of the power that they had. And as I was reading, you know, it seemed like the women of France and the women of the continent were kind of listening to that a bit more. Of course, the women in England didn’t have that experience during Henry’s time. But, um, Scotland, it seemed like such a different kind of experience both with, with Margaret tutor and then, uh, later on. So can you tell me a little bit about the differences there?

Speaker 3: (11:29)

Yeah, no, I agree that Scotland is an odd one. Um, the irony is it did have two women who tried to, and to some degree did take control of the country. Margaret Tudor. After the death of her husband, James claudon was, you know, it looked for a while as if she would at least be able to, of, you know, head the Regency council, but then she effectively threw it all away, uh, by making a disastrous sec, very unpopular in the country. Second, and then third marriage. In other words, she made exactly the mistakes that her granddaughter, Mary queen of Scots made. Now in between those two, there came Mar married, a geese who did rule the country as Regent during part of the minority of her daughter, Mary queen of Scots red in France. Perhaps she made a much better job of it, but nonetheless, she too had great difficulties.

Speaker 3: (12:32)

So maybe it does say something about the Scottish situation, because I agree that Scotland is a bit of a sort of standout here, but that may be down to, you know, the sort of turbulent nature of the country and the very different relationship, but the Nobles felt they had with the crown. Sure. But it is striking. I agree with you about the, the widows thing particularly, um, Andy Boucher, his manual is it’s great. Isn’t it? I love the bit, I love some of the things like where she says that, uh, you know, you need to wear too much finery because past 40, no finery in your dresses can make the wrinkles disappear. Never heard of that shift. But, um, one of her, she really is writing a lot for widows. And I think it’s important for us now to remember that that in many ways was the time of a woman’s power because before she married, she was effectively considered, you know, a child in the custody of the care of a male parent or guardian while she was married.

Speaker 3: (13:38)

She was subordinate to her husband. But as the widow, it might be another story. And very many of these women did actually achieve their power in widowhood. And many of them, I may say, were fought tooth and nail against the eagerness of their male relations to marry them off again. I mean, Margaret of Austria’s relations were pushing her to make a fourth marriage possibly with Henry, Henry, Henry, the seventh of England, but she very sensibly was having none of it instead, you know, she, she, she became not only Regent of the Netherlands, but at the very heart of European diplomacy. And she clearly preferred her independent life. That way,

Speaker 2: (14:26)

I thought it was interesting, just, you know, you talked about widows and their power and when children, when women, when women were girls and how little power they had, and, you know, I suppose that’s for women of all classes, but you see it specifically with, with royalty. And I thought it was interesting, there was the line that Marguerite of Navarra wrote about how a good daughter has no right to a will of her own. And so I was wondering just about the relationship. You, you touched on it a little bit, these networks of women and how they were all related, but between mother and daughter, there’s this story of how Margaret Beaufort tried to protect Margaret tutor from having to go to Scotland to early. And yeah. And so I just wonder, like how could young girls be protected by their mothers and grandmothers and what was that relationship like?

Speaker 3: (15:23)

Yeah. Well, I think there’s several things there. Actually. One is yes. As you say, you do see things like, uh, Margaret Beaufort who had herself been married off terribly early and become pregnant 12. Um, you know, you do see her trying to protect her own granddaughter from a similar fate. In fact, James of Scotland may well have been, you know, um, a bit more humane and weighted rather than, you know, unlike Margaret Buffett’s husband, but, uh, the amount the women could do was limited. And of course, often these women didn’t have the chance to bring up their children themselves, not in a very hands on way. And that brings that to, that really brings onto the other point that, yes, I agree these young girls, perhaps these princesses, perhaps even more than ordinary young girls really were poor moms. That’s, you know, the name of my book game of Queens, the chess game pawns to be moved around the board for the advantage of their family and the trouble with that is that very, very often that meant they’d be, they’d be married off to cement a fallen Alliance with someone who had a country, which had been, and would be again, an enemy of the country where they were born.

Speaker 3: (16:50)

So actually Margaret tutor in Scotland is the absolutely prime example. She was married off by her father, Henry the seventh to the Scottish King, just a mental Alliance with Scotland, but Scotland and England work perpetually at enmity. And when the battle broke out, flooding, you know, you had, you had the armies of Margaret’s brother and her natal country killing her husband, but she was then felt she, the only person to whom she could appeal for help in ruling Scotland was that same brother, you know, who just massacred so much, so many Scotsman whose armies had. And so they really were caught in this impossible tog between loyalty to their natal family, whose ambassador in a way they was supposed to be a loyalty to the country and to which they’d married, really an agonizing to be in.

Speaker 2: (17:50)

Give me any examples of a woman of a queen who handled it really well and was successful,

Speaker 3: (17:57)

What, who handled that particular target yeah.

Speaker 2: (18:00)

Who was able to kind of navigate it and was successful with that?

Speaker 3: (18:05)

Oh, do you know? I have to pause for a minute to think about this one. Um, Catherine of Aragon of course managed it for a long time, but then in the end, as we all know too well, her marriage with Henry broke down and then she was trying to appeal to her continental family and their connections in a sense to protect her against her husband. And I mean, I think a lot of these women managed it, managed it to a greater or lesser degree. Um, but of course it depends, you know, to just how directly the th th th the, the two countries where we’re at war. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 2: (18:53)

Yeah. It, it also seems like some of them were really devoted to their brothers. I was thinking about Margaret of Navarre and also Margaret tutor to a certain extent. And I, it just, it seemed like a really interesting relationship. And I wonder, especially because they wouldn’t think that they would have grown up together because the boys would have been kept separate, although with Henry and Margaret, I suppose they grew up together. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 3: (19:23)

Well, yeah, absolutely. Um, I’m not sure that I’d see Henry and Margaret as being devoted, actually in any, if anything, they will, you know, that was a rather, rather fractious relationship. I mean, Henry the eight, this is a little rich coming from him, blamed Margaret for not sticking with her marriage with her second marriage, um, you know, said divorce was an outrageous thing. Marriage was sacred. Talk about pots. Um, but margarita and Navarro and her brother, I absolutely agree. That’s a very weird relationship. Um, Marguerite her mother Louise and Francois Deweese’s son Margaret’s brother was so close. They were known as the Trinity. And I mean, there’s all sorts of letters from Marguerite. When, for example, she finally became pregnant writing about, about how much she resented the baby in her womb, because it might distract her from attention to her brother writing time. And again, about how the interest of her child and her husband was nothing compared to those of her brother.

Speaker 3: (20:32)

Well, you have to make some allowance, of course, you know, for the rhetoric of court writing of the 16th century, but even so you can see why historians of the 19th century certainly suggested that the relationship between Marguerite and Francois was as incestuously close physically as it certainly was emotionally, that’s probably going too far, but all the same, it was a weird one, but it, you know, it may not just be sisters and brothers because Louise’s, their mother’s devotion to Francois was also extreme. And perhaps one has to say that for some of these women, not all, or, um, their, their male relations were a kind of surrogate, you know, in France, which, which subscribed to the Salic law, which said that a woman could never hold the throne. The closest that women could get to power was through a male relative. So perhaps there’s something of that going on there. And perhaps that’s why you don’t see it quite so much in England.

Speaker 2: (21:47)

Yeah. Interesting. So, you know, that was all kind of early, um, fi 16th century. And then in England, of course, there’s the whole story with Elizabeth and Mary queen of Scots. And that has been lots of books written about that, but what does, um, you know, what do you think, Elizabeth, how was all of this growing up seeing all of this happening? How, how do you, what do you think she took from that and how did that influence her later with never getting married and everything else?

Speaker 3: (22:20)

Yeah. Well, it’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Because of course, Elizabeth, you know, mother, Amber Lynn died in her early in her early childhood. And apart from I’m one of, you know, her last step mother, Catherine Parr, she didn’t really have the experience I’m talking about of, you know, watching a woman handle power. Catherine power of course was briefly left as Regent of England. But nonetheless, it is interesting, isn’t it? Because, well, I think one has to feel that someone is well-educated as Elizabeth would have learned, something would have been aware of the continental experience would have read some of the books written by these women even, but one of the questions, well, one of the questions I asked myself was whether the relationship between Elizabeth Tudor and Mary Stewart could ever have gone differently, could Elizabeth effectively have mentored Mary, but I think the answer is no.

Speaker 3: (23:24)

And I think really, I think it was the religious question that did it there because the trouble was that the Catholics Elizabeth Tudor was a bastard and a user and the throne of England belonged to Mary queen of Scots. And you couldn’t really ever get past that. You know, there was no way that if, if Elizabeth had, they talked about that, they fantasize about it. Only they too could get married. It was healed divisions, you know, in that their two countries, they joked about, you know, about ’em, they, they wrote it themselves as mother and daughter Elizabeth at one point suggested that Mary queen of Scots should marry her own Everett, Robert Dudley, favorite, and many said, lover Lester. And that then they should all live in some sort of weird twice Elizabeth court. I know, but it was never, it was never going to happen.

Speaker 3: (24:18)

And really there was, you know, there was no way it could do. The other question of course is why, why when Elizabeth Tudor did by and large man managed triumphantly to ruling land. I mean, even if the last years of her reign were not as successful as what came before, um, you know, we do look back on her rate and as a real triumph of monarchy and at the same time, Mary, Mary Stewart failed so spectacularly in Scotland. But I think again, I’m sure it’s partly temperament. Um, it may even be the fact that Mary queen of Scots came to the throne and indeed began actually to try and rule so young while Elizabeth was a very experienced mid twenties, but it is also, I think, you know, due to the situation that the, of, of those two countries and the, the relationship of the, um, you know, the, the parliaments and the Nobles to the Monarch.

Speaker 2: (25:18)

Yeah. Scotland was much more. Hmm.

Speaker 3: (25:21)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And where the Nobles expect, you know, basically expected to have even more of a say in the handling of the affairs

Speaker 2: (25:30)

And plus Mary queen of Scots wasn’t raised in, in Scotland. So,

Speaker 3: (25:35)

No, that’s right. She was raised that’s right. She was raised in France. She was raised to be queen consort of France, not ruler of Scotland. And of course she was a Catholic returning to a largely Protestant country.

Speaker 2: (25:48)

Yeah. I liked the part where I noticed the part where you talked about the, the subjects that she excelled in or needle point and dancing and how she used to come to the council meetings and do her needle point.

Speaker 3: (26:00)

I know, I know. I mean, I’m sure it is a bust. The first was also a good needle woman, but I don’t quite see her stitching through council meetings.

Speaker 2: (26:09)

Yeah. So, um, were there any surprises that you found that you didn’t expect as you were researching and writing this book?

Speaker 3: (26:18)

Well, yes. I mean, in a sense the whole subject was a surprise to me when I first began just to discover just how regularly chunks of Europe were ruled by a woman. I mean, the Netherlands, for example, Margaret of Austria was succeeded by a niece. She’d raised Mary of Hungary who was succeeded by a niece she’d raised Margaret of. So, you know, that’s a, an amazing line of female regions, but in terms of individual personalities, yeah. I think the two surprises that I didn’t know more about Margaret of Austria, I mean, she seemed to me such a compelling figure and one with so many links, you know, to England, but it’s very odd that more of, I don’t know about her because you know, most of us really don’t the other, the other surprise I have to say, and a less pleasant. One was Margaret of Navarro who, because, you know, I knew of her as someone who Amber Lynn regarded, as in some sorts of mentor, I knew of her as a very prolific published author as a thinker, as a leader of the group of noble leaders who were trying to reform the Catholic church from within.

Speaker 3: (27:39)

So I kind of expected to really admire. And of course I do, but in some ways, but I was a bit surprised to find her quite such of a, sorry, I can’t think of way of saying it it’s such an emotional map based. Cause she, she was, she was a deeply, you know, conflicted and contradictory figure. And so that was a little bit of a shock

Speaker 2: (28:04)

If I’m honest. Yeah. You, you talked, you talked at length about her relationship with her daughter as well and her daughter’s marriage and it seems like she, yeah,

Speaker 3: (28:14)

Yeah, that’s right. There was a very, very strange situation where she seemed to be simultaneously forcing her daughter into a marriage, you know, for the benefit of her brother came Francois and then denying that she’d played any, you know, that she’s played any part of it, part in it. Um, you know, so the daughter was left saying no, that she wouldn’t marry this man. But her mother said that, you know, that, that she might she’d have her whip. It it’s a nasty and a fairly incomprehensible story. And of course the daughter was Chandelle Bray, who would herself play a huge part in, um, in the events of the latter part of the century, she was, she inherited her, her father’s small, but strategically very important paronychia and kingdom of Navarro and converted to the reformed religion. So, and it was she and Catherine Domenici trying to negotiate across the religious divides to make a marriage between Catherine’s daughter and Jan son, which provided the trigger for the massacre of some Buffalo meat.

Speaker 2: (29:29)

What’s your, um, do you have a favorite queen story,

Speaker 3: (29:36)

A favorite or a favorite single story? Um, I don’t know. I’ve got a lot of sort of favorite moments if you like, I’ve got some favorite, I’ve got some favorite girly moments. Actually. I rather love the fact that when Catherine dummied it, she and Jan Bellbrae when negotiating this marriage that was supposed to help heal France has religious divides. They took a day out to go shopping around the boutiques Paris together, disguised as Bush white house. Wow. That’s amazing. Um, and I do love the ladies piece, the ladies piece of, of, of 1529. Oh. And I love something. I’m sorry. I’m quoting from memory, but something that Mary of Hungary wrote to her brother, Charles, the fifth, after the execution of Amber Lynn and Henry, the eighth, very speedy marriage to Jane Seymour. She wrote that it’s to be hoped if one can hope anything from such a man that if this one gene bores him, he’ll find another way of getting rid of her because I think, you know, she said something like, I think it wouldn’t be very much, you know, in most women’s, um, Muslim women wouldn’t much like it, if this became cutting off your wife’s head became the normal proceedings.

Speaker 3: (30:50)

And I thought that was a good, uh, a good one.

Speaker 2: (30:53)

Exactly. Um, so where, where would you recommend what other, obviously there’s your book, but if people are interested in learning more about this, they should read your book, but then if they want to go deeper, what other sorts of sources can you recommend to them?

Speaker 3: (31:10)

Right. Well, there are biographies or, um, academic writing, certainly on the continental women, that there is a certain amount in English though. It’s not necessarily very new, but this is it there. Although there are, there are, there are a couple of books I would definitely recommend. However, there are three books really that I’d say, go to. And the first is Antonia. Fraser’s groundbreaking Buddha cause chariot, the warrior Queens. I mean, it’s not a new book now. I think it was published in 1988 though, often re-issued and it covers warrior Queens as she sees them, you know, right through from, um, from early history to her present day. But that’s got some absolutely compelling patterns that she draws out the other two more recently that are, I noticed, particularly as again, drawing out the patterns, sort of looking at a queen ship across Europe in a broader way. One is the rise of the female Kings in Europe, 1300 to 1800 by William Monter. That was from Yale a few years ago. And the other is one by Sharon L. Johnson, the monstrous regiment of women, female rulers in early modern Europe and both of the, all three of those I’d heartily recommend. Excellent.

Speaker 2: (32:40)

Well, you have been so gracious with your time. Um, is there anything else that you want to add that I haven’t asked that you think is important?

Speaker 3: (32:49)

Well, I guess only the question of what happened to the age of Queens and all that, any echoes for the present day. Now, you and I are speaking the week after a woman has just failed to win the world’s most powerful office. I wrote of course at a time when that all looked hopeful, nonetheless, you know, we do have women at the helm now in England and in Scotland, Angela Merkel, Christine Lagarde. So, although I’d see this 16th century, age of Queens as ending really with Elizabeth the first and then, you know, one sees it again in the 18th century, in Russia, the age of Catherine, the great, I would like to think that an example of women holding power is as major as we saw in the 16th century doesn’t ever entirely go away. I mean, perhaps what’s just happened in the States shows that many of the challenges, these women still, these women face then are still relevant today because I do believe they are, you know, you can see the same sort of pattern. Um, but nonetheless, I like to think, you know, that that two steps forward, even if it’s there one step back, you get there in the end, I’d like to think put it this way. But in the game of Queens, there are still some moves to play.

Speaker 2: (34:24)

Yes. I would like to think that as well. So I’m American, so

Speaker 3: (34:30)

I know. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2: (34:33)

Well, we won’t go any further than that, on that note. So the new book is game of Queens and you can get it where all books are sold. It’s a wonderful book. And I really appreciate you being so generous with your time and talking to me and talking to

Speaker 3: (34:50)

No thank you

Speaker 2: (34:52)

Many. Thanks to Sarah Gristwood for taking the time to talk with us today. Remember to go to England cast.com to get links, to buy all of her books and find out more about her. She’s been so generous with her time and it was really great to speak with her. So Hannah, I’ve still got your Anne of Cleves episode coming, hopefully by the end of this week, if not early next week. And in the meantime, go to England cast.com for show notes, check out the tours and the tutor planner. And I will talk with you again very soon. Thanks a lot. Have a great week, everybody.

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