The first half of 2016 saw the publication of two books at the intersection of Latin and aging. The first, in March, was How to Grow Old: Ancient Wisdom for the Second Half of Life (Princeton University Press), a translation of Cicero’s De Senectute by Philip Freeman, Qualley Professor of Classics at Luther College author of several biographies of ancient figures. It was followed in June by Living with a Dead Language: My Romance with Latin (Viking), a memoir of learning Latin late in life by editor and publisher Ann Patty.

The following is a conversation between Freeman (PF) and Patty (AP) led by Michael Fontaine (MF), Associate Professor of Classics at Cornell University.

MF: In Cicero’s De Senectute, Cato (the main speaker) emphasizes the importance of learning something new in retirement. He himself says he learned Greek (p. 55 in Philip’s translation):

And you should never stop learning, just as Solon in his poetry boasts that while growing old he learned something new every day. I’ve done the same, teaching myself Greek as an old man. I have seized on this study like someone trying to satisfy a long thirst….

Ann, you seem to be a perfect illustration of that: you’ve seized on the study of Latin.

But is Cato right? Not long ago, a newly-retired (and smart!) friend of mine to whom I’d recommended Philip’s translation confessed:

Lifelong learning is overrated. It’s great for Cicero and you & your colleagues, intellectuals all… But I’m old, I’m tired, I don’t wanna!!! I don’t want to learn Spanish, or how to play an instrument, or listen to a 2 day lecture on the alpine flowers of North America with a road scholars hiking trip. I’m not being closed minded (as you think) but know my needs and wants.

She may have a point. Is Cato’s advice meant only for the ‘ivory tower’ types?

AP: I believe Cato’s advice “you should never stop learning” applies to everyone, from astrophysicists to truck drivers. The type of learning an older person might choose will depend on two things: her biology and her relationship with the work from which she retired. Biology is destiny: some need a challenging, time-consuming enterprise, some a simpler one. Not all learning is book learning. I study Latin, another friend has become a doula, my husband maps new mountains by walking their trails, learning their bodies. One person I know gets off at unfamiliar stops on the subway, and discovers a part of New York he’s never known. Another has taken up violin. These are all learning endeavors.

If your career was something you were passionately engaged in, losing it can be devastating. Without a passionate pursuit, bitterness and boredom come calling. If you had a job you endured only to keep a roof over your head and food on the table, you may feel like you’ve put in your time and now you just want to relax. But how does one relax for twenty or thirty years?

As Cato says, the physical libido drives us less as we age, but the mental libido can take up the slack. Libido can be repurposed to learning. Passion and the zeal to learn are one and the same. Without them, we are merely killing time, wasting the gift of life. As Horace says, vitanda est improba siren desidia (one must avoid that wicked temptress, Laziness).

PF: I think Ann is right: what you choose to learn in retirement depends so much on who you are. I wouldn’t recommend learning Latin for everyone — or even academic study — but I know that the best students I’ve had in classes and seminars over the years have been older folks. Cicero and Cato would be proud of them.

Some of my older friends in my little town here in Iowa have taken up gardening, art, or motorcycle repair. But I don’t think it’s about keeping busy. That in itself seems a pretty low bar to set when we could strive for so much more. I think it’s about engagement of the mind in something useful and good.

I just turned 55 and am thinking ahead to what I want to do with the rest of my life. I love teaching and writing books, so I can’t imagine not doing that in some form or another, but I’m also thinking of reviving my childhood interest in astronomy. Aspira ad astra — reach for the stars. Ann, have you met others your age who are learning Latin?

AP: I’ve only met one other person who has taken up Latin at my age. I ran into him at Vassar two years ago when he was just beginning. He had spent his life doing manual labor to support his acting habit, and began Latin in retirement. He had plenty of mental energy left and wanted to use it. Unfortunately, he gave it up after year two, I’m not sure why because he’s disappeared from Vassar. I’m hoping he might show up again.

MF: That doesn’t sound promising, Ann, if even you only know only one other person who’s tried Latin in retirement, and he threw in the towel. Come to think of it, Cicero’s Cato — a former consul, even censor — was a pretty unusual guy himself. He advocates learning a new language in retirement (Greek) and writing books, too (p. 79):

I am now working on the seventh book of my Origins [of Rome] and collecting all the records of our earliest history, as well as editing the speeches I delivered in famous cases.

Learning a new language is one thing; writing a book seems like something else entirely. Ann, as you reflect now, which has been the greater joy — learning Latin, or publishing a book about learning Latin?

AP: I began my Latin studies suspecting they might prove fruitful for a memoir, but my first objective was to learn Latin, and let it lead me where it would.

I did not begin writing until I was in the middle of my third year of studies. At that point, I needed an interlocutor to explore more deeply what I was learning. The blank page was my interlocutor. On good days it talked back to me: it summoned ghosts and reminded me of parts of my life I had forgotten. Writing changed my past to enhance my present. I wrote myself out of my former New York City life and into my new Hudson Valley life.

Having a first book published at age 65 is a thrill. I love being part of a literary conversation again (in the form of people reviewing my book and writing me emails). But I know the conversation will end, and come September, I’ll be back in Latin class, both as student and teacher. Learning is its own endless end.

PF: I’d have to say the most satisfaction comes from process of discovery in researching and writing a book, then sharing that with others. My writing tends to cover aspects of life in the ancient and medieval world. I learned so much writing biographies of Julius Caesar, Saint Patrick, and Alexander the Great. Recently I published a book on Sappho and women in ancient Greece. Every time I write a book it’s like going back to school for me.

Then there’s the chance to share what I learned with a wider audience in print and other media. Academics tend to live in a very small world. We concentrate on our one little area of scholarship, write our articles and books for a tiny professional audience, and ignore the larger world. This is a terrible mistake. Most people think professors live in an ivory tower — and they’re right. What’s the point of all of our study and education if we aren’t interested in sharing it with the wider world?

MF: It’s interesting to observe that some of us look at the study of Latin as an instrument of communication (so Philip) while others regard it as an end in itself (so Ann). But you two have catered to both audiences: Philip, by printing a bilingual Latin/English text, and Ann, by communicating her enthusiasm for Latin itself to a wider audience.

Who should we (classicists, Latin lovers) be trying to share our interests with? Or (to put it more candidly) Why do Classics folks forever target college-age students but neglect 30-somethings and 40-somethings and, most of all, retirees? Has the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) contacted either of you about your books? And if not, why do you imagine our national organization, the Society for Classical Studies, has not done more to promote your works to that demographic? Should we even bother?

AP: This is a very good question. People of all ages decide, for various reasons, to learn a language, and Latin should be among those considered — so manifold are the benefits one derives from it. I think college-age students are targeted because they have the time and usually the place to learn. It’s harder for those who are older, as many public colleges no longer offer Latin, and learning it solo, or online, is much harder than learning in a classroom.

I have now heard from a couple retirees who plan to take up, or have taken up Latin. One said he was inspired to do so by my book. I definitely think we should target retirees. I haven’t heard from the AARP, though I’d love to place an article there. My publicist has approached them, to no response, but I plan to keep trying. It would be the perfect venue for both of our books. Perhaps Philip, you and I should write a short piece tailored to that periodical. Does the Society for Classical Studies have a newsletter? If so, they should promote our books!

PF: I’d love to work with you, Ann, on an AARP article. I think Classics professional organizations are thinking more about outreach in the last few years to those outside the college-age crowd. I know there are several very successful college and university programs around North America that reach out to the community. I think of the Harvard Extension School because they’ve done such good work for so long.

Maybe one problem is that there aren’t that many large Latin and Classics departments that can support an extensive outreach program. Another problem is that young Classicists are working so hard on academic research so that they can earn tenure in a competitive market that they honestly don’t have time to devote to outreach. There sadly isn’t much support in the tenure system for that kind of work. But there are a number of good outreach programs available, such as week-long courses and online classes. These are especially good for the many interested people out there who don’t live near a major Classics department with an extension program.

MF: Though they’re framed as challenges, it looks like we’ve identified some real opportunities here — for outreach and for life. Perhaps the first step is just to keep conversations like this going across the generations. In that spirit, let’s give Cicero’s Cato the last word (p. 61):

What indeed could be more pleasant than an old age surrounded by the enthusiasm of youth? For surely we must agree that old people at least have the strength to teach the young and prepare them for the many duties of life. What responsibility could be more honorable than this?

Philip Freeman is the Qualley Professor of Classics at Luther College in Decorah, Iowa. He is the author of several books on the ancient and medieval world, including biographies of Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great as well as translations of Cicero.

Ann Patty is the author of Living with a Dead Language: My Romance with Latin (Viking, 2016). Before she began studying Latin, she was an editor and publisher at NYC trade houses (Poseidon/Simon & Schuster, Crown/Random House, and Harcourt) for over thirty years.

Michael Fontaine teaches Classics at Cornell, and is a big fan of both these new books. He’s a member of the Society for Classical Studies’ Outreach Committee and would like to hear new ideas. Reach him on Twitter @M_S_Fontaine.

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This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.