Elia Einhorn: Welcome. I’m Elia Einhorn, co-curator of In Sight Out, a series of podcasts from Pitchfork that explore new perspectives on music, art, and culture. In Sight Out is presented by MailChimp: Build your brand, sell more stuff.

Vince Staples is always outspoken. He’s talked at length about the NBA, style, and sometimes himself. When we sat down with him at Chicago’s MCA, we asked Vince about his personal history to learn a bit about how he got to be the sharp, witty artist he is today. He answered, sometimes. Is he a troll? We asked him, and he deferred to his manager, sitting in the audience, who had to say, “Yes,” but there’s always something serious underlying his jokes.

This conversation took place shortly after Eminem’s now infamous anti-Trump rap on the BET Hip-Hop Awards. Asked for his opinion on Eminem’s performance, Staples did not hold back talking at length about the larger cultural context behind all the adulation for Em. There’s so much to unpack in the hip-hop universe and Staples is a worthy guide. So, while much of the conversation was classic Vince Staples banter, there was meaning rife within everything he said. Listen close. Vince’s interviewer is Pitchfork’s managing editor, Matthew Schnipper.

Matthew Schnipper: What’s up, Vince?

Vince Staples: Hey.

Matthew Schnipper: How are you?

Vince Staples: I’m good.

Matthew Schnipper: How’s everybody doing?

Audience: Woo!

Matthew Schnipper: We had lunch today, and you did not eat any of your quinoa. We looked at some suits on some sportscaster and we talked about Eminem for a little while. So, I was hoping before we talked about your music we might talk about Eminem for a second. You were saying your biggest problem—I’m assuming everybody here saw or at least heard the Eminem freestyle on the Hip-Hop Awards, is that correct?

Audience: Woo!

Matthew Schnipper: If you haven’t, just pull it up on your phone right now and just take a minute I guess, just put your headphones on I guess. You said it was terrible because... he had terrible bars, is that correct?

Vince Staples: Bars are trash.

Matthew Schnipper: So, tell me why is was so bad.

Vince Staples: He can do better. It was trash.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, as we were saying, he hasn’t done better for a long time.

Vince Staples: Some people like “Rap God,” but that song was trash.

Matthew Schnipper: So, why was it so bad?

Vince Staples: I couldn’t do that. If I did that, it’d be crazy.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, we said maybe you should do it. What would it be like if you did it? What would be different?

Vince Staples: If I said, “This is for Colin, ball up a fist and keep it balled up like Donald the bitch,” they would be like, “Get this nigga out of here.”

Matthew Schnipper: But you did just say it, it seemed compelling to me.

Vince Staples: No, it didn’t.

Matthew Schnipper: It didn’t? Do you agree with what he was saying?

Vince Staples: I didn’t get through it to be honest. I skimmed.

Matthew Schnipper: You skimmed through it?

Vince Staples: Yeah.

Matthew Schnipper: Why? Because it was bad?

Vince Staples: Yeah, I couldn’t do it.

Matthew Schnipper: Did you ever like Eminem?

Vince Staples: Of course. I was a child at one time. Everybody likes Eminem when you’re a child.

Matthew Schnipper: Everybody likes Eminem. So, how do you... you feel bad for him, or?

Vince Staples: No, he’s rich.

Matthew Schnipper: He’s rich. You think if you’re rich no one should be able to feel bad for you?

Vince Staples: He’s rich, he’s a good father, his mom’s sober now. It’s a good life to live.

Matthew Schnipper: Things are okay for him.

Vince Staples: Things are looking up.

Matthew Schnipper: All right. Well, I–

Vince Staples: If I do something that’s trash, I want somebody to be like, “Hey, that was trash.”

Matthew Schnipper: Right. Can we talk–

Vince Staples: Because I’m a man of opinion, like literally, like technically it was not that great.

Matthew Schnipper: It’s not that great.

Vince Staples: Y’all be like, “Hey, bro. Yo, that was trash.” I’d be like, “Good looking.”

Matthew Schnipper: So, I was curious then, in general, what makes, not even a good rap song, but what makes a good song? What’s a good song to you right now? What’s in a good song?

Vince Staples: What’s in it?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. What’s the components?

Vince Staples: It doesn’t really matter, to be honest.

Matthew Schnipper: Nothing? Doesn’t matter?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: It’s just completely open?

Vince Staples: You just got to sell it.

Matthew Schnipper: So, the reason I was thinking about this is because what we were hoping to do this evening is we’re going to play some of Vince’s songs, parts of those songs, and talk about them and then whatever else we feel like talking about. Because we talked what songs we were going to play and you were like, “That’s terrible.” I tried to pick some songs, you thought they were–

Vince Staples: My favorite thing about the Eminem freestyle...

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah?

Vince Staples: Is the wall of dark-skinned black people behind him.

Matthew Schnipper: So, that is what... I didn’t want to prompt you to talk, I wasn’t sure if you felt like talking about it, but what was up with that?

Vince Staples: That was great.

Matthew Schnipper: Why? Why was that?

Vince Staples: I have no idea, but it was great.

Matthew Schnipper: What do you think those guys were thinking when they were filming that?

Vince Staples: This is for Colin.

Matthew Schnipper: You know Colin Kaepernick tweeted, I think he said he appreciated the video.

Vince Staples: I bet he did.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. I mean, maybe they’re going to have lunch.

Vince Staples: This is my thing, this is what bothers me, it make me mad when niggas be like, “Damn, I really wish a white person would help me out and agree with me at this point of time, because I need some help.” I’m not with that.

Matthew Schnipper: So, we talked about–

Vince Staples: Speak up for us, like, nigga why? I’m cool.

Matthew Schnipper: Would you rather... Let’s see, would you have liked it better if it had been a pro-Trump freestyle from Eminem?

Vince Staples: Either... If he would’ve just... If it would’ve been those bars?

Matthew Schnipper: If the bars were good, like if the bars were really good.

Vince Staples: I don’t give a fuck what he was talking about.

Matthew Schnipper: It was just like pure like 1994 Slim Shady.

Vince Staples: So, it’s like this, you know what I mean, it’s like, damn. You see a little girl outside, you know she got the little hat on, she got the little sash with the pins on her, her little vest, little button-up shirt.

Matthew Schnipper: Is it a girl scout?

Vince Staples: Yeah, something like that, you know what I mean? And, she’s like, “Hi, Mr. Schnipps,” and you’re like, “What’s up, little girl?” And she’s like, “I’m selling cookies for breast cancer awareness because we’re trying to give the proceeds to the cause,” you’d be like, “That’s great. I love titties, and I love women, and I love health. Let me give you $30 for one cookie.” You know, some overpriced shit.

Matthew Schnipper: You would not criticize her bars, in her, like her–

Vince Staples: But if you ate the cookie and it was like, “Man, this cookie’s trash.”

Matthew Schnipper: Right.

Vince Staples: She deserves to know that so she can go make a better cookie.

Matthew Schnipper: So, how would you approach the cookie issue? I mean, did you–

Vince Staples: You got to be honest about the cookie, because you can support the cows and still not like the cookie. You get what I’m saying?

Matthew Schnipper: I do. This seems like a metaphor. So, are you... I do want to play a very old song of yours. Now, Vince and I met about eight or nine years ago. I think you were 16 or 17 and it was a little right before you put out the Winter in Prague mixtape. You have a few songs I really liked. You had rapped with Future a little bit, then you put out your first stuff on your own. I believe I blogged about it on thefader.com.

Vince Staples: Thank you.

Matthew Schnipper: Shout out to blogging. But this song “Trigga Witta Heart,” let’s play a tiny little bit about it. This is the one you were like, “This is trash,” so I’ll... You can tell us if you think it’s trash. Vince will be somebody’s critic, his own or somebody else’s. There we go. So, that I remember I went back and looked at the very old blog post, which if you have a blog I would not recommend you ever do, but I had noted then if you want some positivity go listen to some Common lyric, which made me laugh then and now, but I wondered if you actually like Common?

Vince Staples: Yeah, that’s my friend.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah?

Vince Staples: Yeah. I laughed when I said it though, but that’s my friend.

Matthew Schnipper: So, but it sounded like at that point you weren’t really a fan of that kind of stuff.

Vince Staples: I mean, I wouldn’t say it was that deep. It was just funny when I thought about it and he’s positive, you know? I’m not that positive of a person.

Matthew Schnipper: So, is that true? Are you a positive person or are you pessimist? Are you an optimist?

Vince Staples: Ask Corey. Corey, am I positive?

Matthew Schnipper: Corey’s his manager. Where’s Corey?

Cory: You are, but you’re not.

Vince Staples: Yeah, there we go. Corey said I am but I’m not, for the podcast listeners.

Matthew Schnipper: Because we may have a difference of opinion about you, because I do think you’re positive.

Vince Staples: I think I’m a sweetheart.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. That’s a good way to put it. So, what does that mean? How does this enact in real life? Because I think to some degree, it’s positive to want to tell the girl scout that she could do better, you know? You believe in a better world.

Vince Staples: Exactly. Yeah. I guess. It depends, you know?

Matthew Schnipper: On what?

Vince Staples: On you, what you want to do with your day.

Matthew Schnipper: What do you mean?

Vince Staples: Sometimes it’s not worth the time.

Matthew Schnipper: Sometimes you what? Say that again.

Vince Staples: It’s not worth the time. If you didn’t ask me, I would never tell somebody I didn’t like that because I would just not listen to it or watch it. I’m not watching the BET Awards unless I’m on it. I’m not watching no award show unless I’m on it, to be honest.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, then what do you do with your time?

Vince Staples: Work.

Matthew Schnipper: Working.

Vince Staples: I think, yeah, we were somewhere when that came out. I think we probably had a Gorillaz show or something that day.

Matthew Schnipper: Oh, we’ll get into the Gorillaz. Later in that song, you talk about... you ask, “When’s Malcolm going to get a day? Probably never,” and I was just thinking about how you were very young when you wrote that. What were you like when you were a kid, when you were a teenager?

Vince Staples: I don’t know, that’s a question for the homies. Younger, I guess, everybody’s different when they younger. I was pretty close to the same, a little irresponsible, talked a little less. I don’t talk much now, but less then. My hair was nappier. My hair’s still nappy, but it was nappier. My pants didn’t fit, a little baggier. I was broke. I don’t know, bro. That’s a good question. You knew me, nigga. Why you asking me? You was...

Matthew Schnipper: I mean, I think I know the answers to some of these questions, but that’s not the point. It’s like when you’re a lawyer you only ask questions you know the answer to.

Vince Staples: You are who you are today. You know, you get older, you get younger, you learn from your mistakes, things like that. But, yeah, I was pretty regular.

Matthew Schnipper: But, I mean, you must’ve been a contemplative kid. You’re thinking about like, why doesn’t Malcolm have a day? What’s the deal with that?

Vince Staples: You know what’s crazy? When I was 17, I was not thinking about the stuff I was saying on that deep of a level.

Matthew Schnipper: Where did it come from? So, then let’s walk backwards then.

Vince Staples: I’m black.

Matthew Schnipper: When did you decide you were going to rap?

Vince Staples: Black people like Malcolm X. You got Malcolm X, you got Martin Luther King, and some other niggas sprinkled around, but them is the main ones that you get, you know.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you’re like, Columbus got a day, what about Malcolm, kind of thing?

Vince Staples: I don’t... I can’t even tell you to be honest.

Matthew Schnipper: You’re like, that’s ridiculous. Can he get one like everybody [crosstalk].

Vince Staples: But, see I don’t even really care about Christopher Columbus having a day.

Matthew Schnipper: I mean, I don’t even–

Vince Staples: Because what does having a day mean? Niggas don’t care about you. They want to get off work.

Matthew Schnipper: Christopher Columbus may be a bad example, but yeah. You’re like, we got President’s Day–

Vince Staples: It’s not a bad example, I said it, but it’s like...

Matthew Schnipper: No, I said. You didn’t say it.

Vince Staples: But, I said it. That’s why you said it, you said it because I said it.

Matthew Schnipper: Okay.

Vince Staples: I don’t know, man. It’s all perspective. I guess I just thought about that time. I wasn’t really thinking about stuff, like if I wrote it... It’s just like I was taking five minutes to write every song at that point in time.

Matthew Schnipper: Do you remember the first song you wrote?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: When did you decide you wanted to rap then?

Vince Staples: When I figured out Syd was going to let me stay at her house if I did it.

Matthew Schnipper: Somebody said they’ll let you stay there if you rap?

Vince Staples: I was at Syd’s house and I wasn’t trying to go home. I couldn’t really go home, so everybody was there to rap, and you get to... you rap, you get to sleep on the couch. They had a nice couch, nice house. Her mom was cooking, I was with it, so you know. I started rapping a little bit.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you started rapping.

Vince Staples: Yeah, and they was like, “You can get paid,” and I was like, “For sure. Let’s try to get some money.”

Matthew Schnipper: So, why didn’t... You weren’t staying at home?

Vince Staples: I mean, yeah, in and out, but I was running around, you know?

Matthew Schnipper: You talk about your mom a lot.

Vince Staples: That’s the homie.

Matthew Schnipper: What’s your relationship like with your mom? What’s your relationship with your family?

Vince Staples: That’s the homie.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, well what do you guys do? You hang out with your mom a lot now?

Vince Staples: No, she don’t live out here no more, but I talk to her all the time. That’s my peoples.

Matthew Schnipper: So, this next song, “Lord,” you said, you promised your mom you were going to die, and then you’re talking about later your grandma yelling from the dead. It was a little bit of a sad song, you know? I was wondering, are these the kinds things that you actually were talking about with your mom at that point?

Vince Staples: I mean, yeah. I talk to my mom about everything. That’s the homie. I don’t got like, you know.

Matthew Schnipper: Not everybody’s like that with their parents.

Vince Staples: Well, not everybody is.

Matthew Schnipper: Especially when they’re kids. You were probably, what, now we’ve moved on to maybe you’re 18?

Vince Staples: They wasn't doing what I was doing when they was kids though. It’s different. My family’s from California. You know how people be like, “Oh, we from the south and we moved here, blah blah.” My family’s from California. My mama ain’t surprised about nothing I was doing, so I wasn’t going to lie to her. It’s just going to get me in a worse situation so I’m not... I ain’t that type of dude.

Matthew Schnipper: What does it mean that your family’s from California? You also said your family’s from California, but you are too.

Vince Staples: It’s a thing. So, if your parents move somewhere and they’re new to the area and you’re not, they might not know the ins and outs of the community, what’s going on or how people act, or what operates within the space. If you move somewhere for the first time, you’re going to kind of feel it out which you learn going to work, and going home, and going to the grocery store is what someone learns growing up in the area. My mother grew up in the area that I grew up in, so she know what you go through growing up in a specific area so there was no reason for me to have to lie to her. If you're mom’s a banker and she moves to a city that ends up turning bad and you get into some bullshit you’re not going to be able to tell her the truth right after, you know?

Matthew Schnipper: What were you not lying to her about? What was it like? What kind of dialogue were you having?

Vince Staples: Everything, what you just said. My whole life. I don’t... I’ve never misled my parents about who I was or what I was doing.

Matthew Schnipper: What was it like growing up where you grew up?

Vince Staples: It was cool, you know, regular. It’s the same everywhere, bro. Everybody got problems. Everybody goes through certain things. It just depends on how you react to them.

Matthew Schnipper: Did you have a lot of problems?

Vince Staples: No, I was pretty smooth. I had my bumps in the road, but could be worse.

Matthew Schnipper: In another song, later on you’ve rapped about there’s so much that you want to... that you’re sorry about and you couldn’t fix at all, you know? And thought about you, you know, like what do you regret?

Vince Staples: I don’t regret nothing, just to be honest.

Matthew Schnipper: Really?

Vince Staples: Yeah. No, none of that. Because, you know, I’m all right now so that’s what matters. You ever seen Back to the Future?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: Marty took the book and he fucked everything up. You got to just...

Matthew Schnipper: We can talk... That’s a whole other thing.

Vince Staples: You got to stay the course.

Matthew Schnipper: He goes back in the future and like gets attracted to his mom, it seems like it’s a whole weird situation.

Vince Staples: I mean, I don’t know what white people be doing, but what I will say is this, Marty McFly was, you know, he was just trying to be a kid, you feel me, end up fucking the whole world up. Shouldn’t have took the book, so if I had a chance to go back in time, I’m not taking the book.

Matthew Schnipper: You just said he was trying to be a kid and he fucked the whole world up which sounds like when you might’ve tried to advertise a mixtape when you were a kid. You’re like, “I was just trying to be a kid and I’m just going to fuck the whole world up.”

Vince Staples: No, I was tripping.

Matthew Schnipper: Do you think so?

Vince Staples: Yeah. I was tripping.

Matthew Schnipper: Do you think that future you is going to look back on right now and think that you’re tripping now?

Vince Staples: No. See, tripping means something different. What I’m saying is when I was a kid I was tripping, like I was really... How do I, what’s another word for this? I was aggressive as a child. So, I wasn’t just... I was doing everything on purpose. I’m not going to sit here and be like, “Oh, yeah. I was raised in a split home. My mom was always at work and I was sad so I turned to the streets for family.” When niggas say that, I be looking at them like you is a bitch and that’s just how I feel. I made a conscious decision that I was fitting to go run around, so I was running around. And that’s just kind of a catalog of that. I was still running around when I made all that music.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: Yeah, I was–

Matthew Schnipper: When did you stop?

Vince Staples: After Hell Can Wait.

Matthew Schnipper: What made you stop?

Vince Staples: Money.

Matthew Schnipper: Because you got some?

Vince Staples: Yeah, because I had bills and stuff. I was able to take care of some situations. I didn’t make no money until after Summertime '06.

Matthew Schnipper: You were talking recently, we were talking about money backstage a little bit. You were talking to us potentially about taking some of your money and moving back towards closer to home.

Vince Staples: I mean, yeah, I don’t like L.A.

Matthew Schnipper: Why not?

Vince Staples: It’s not my type of vibe. To each his own, but it’s just a lot going on. It’s not my... I’m from the suburbs, bro, you know what I mean? Compton, Gardena, Carson, Long Beach, all them areas over there, it’s like it was built for suburban... To a lot of people suburban means white or suburban means affluent, but it’s not built like a inner city. So, it’s just structured different.

Matthew Schnipper: So, what would be different in your life if you move back to the suburbs?

Vince Staples: I got to deal with people that’s not from over here, you know? You got to run into an aspiring rapper when you live in Los Angeles, like, “Hey, bro. I got a mixtape.” Like, fuck yo mixtape. That’s really how I feel sometimes, but I can’t be like... you know, you can’t say certain things. You can’t be a person, you got to have a job, so. I’ll be at work, but you don’t get to clock out when you... Imagine if you went to work every day being like, “Damn, my day’s over. That’s great,” and you walk out of your office and went to your bedroom. You feel fucked up. It’s not escape, it’s separation. When you out there you at work all the time.

Matthew Schnipper: Did anybody ever give you a mixtape you liked?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: Never?

Vince Staples: If it’s good you don’t have to give it to me. I mean, it’s like you know when you tight. I ain’t never told one person listen to my music. You know this, I ain’t ever send nobody my music and said, “Post it.” I ain’t never said, “Hey, you want to...” I don’t invite niggas nowhere. I don’t tell niggas to listen to nothing. All that is quiet. I ain’t ever asked nobody to go to studio. I ain’t asked nobody for no feature like that. It’s not really what I do.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you don’t like thirsty people it sounds like.

Vince Staples: Nobody likes thirsty people, but people be wanting it bad too and I appreciate it. You know what I mean because like–

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, isn’t that part of it? Wanting to make it?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: No, you don’t think so?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: Desire, you know?

Vince Staples: I mean, what do you want? You want to make music or you want to be famous, pick one.

Matthew Schnipper: Which one do you want?

Vince Staples: I ain’t really worried about either right now. I’m just living, you know? It’s like, what’s a artist, you feel me? Niggas quick to call they self a artist but be wanting attention and all this other stuff. If you really want to be a artist you ready to be broke and die at like 30. That’s some real art shit. We in the museum, right?

Matthew Schnipper: I hope that’s not going to happen.

Vince Staples: No, but it’s like you got to focus on certain things. Everybody want to be famous bro, that’s why they do it. They want attention.

Matthew Schnipper: Do you think about... You rap about dying all the time.

Vince Staples: You can die.

Matthew Schnipper: I mean, will die, you will die.

Vince Staples: Yeah, but you can get fucked over out here, fast.

Matthew Schnipper: I mean–

Vince Staples: You’d be surprised. Niggas being fucked over left and right. You got to stay on your toes. Tupac got fucked over, what make me think I can’t get fucked over? That nigga was on the radio. I ain’t on the fucking radio. He was in movies and all that, still got fucked over, you get what I’m saying?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. It sounds like you should stay home.

Vince Staples: For what though?

Matthew Schnipper: I mean, I don’t know.

Vince Staples: Jesus got fucked over, bro. He was minding his business. They came looking for the nigga like, “Hey. You over here with us.”

Matthew Schnipper: Are you thinking about dying before you’re 30? I hope not.

Vince Staples: No. We straight.

Matthew Schnipper: I hope so.

Vince Staples: I’m not. I’m cool. I’m not... I be on my toes. You never know, but you know, I be having some close calls. Not no more, but I done had some close calls recently, but you know.

Matthew Schnipper: You seem relaxed.

Vince Staples: Yeah, also rap is rap. You know, everybody want to be cute. It’s cool to be cute. Cute is in right now, so nigga’s got they little guns on the internet, they waving the motherfuckers. All them long ass clips and all the other stuff that’s going to get you 25 to life in the state of California. That’s cute. They can do all that, but when you really, like, did something, like a long time ago, they not going to just forget because you famous or you’re a rapper, like, oh, he’s a rapper now. We gone let all slide. Niggas is going to be even more mad, even more thirsty. So, you know, stuff don’t disappear.

We did... I forgot what we did, we gave some kids something at the YMCA program. We gave them the equipment to make music and stuff, and this kid... When we was kids Buster was never nobody, he’s somebody now, but when we was kids he was a nobody you know? He was on Facebook like, “Man, niggas know that’s just a tax write off. Fuck that bitch ass nigga. Fuck Nachos.” It’s like, this is for kids, them kids were like 10 years old, but he’s like, “Fuck them little ass kids. That nigga’s from Nachos.” It's weird, like niggas don’t let it go, you feel me?

So, when it get to the point that you seen all the time and you got to move around to go to shows and to go to interviews, and do this and do that, and everybody know your face, you going to think about that kind of stuff. You never know when it could come back around to you. You got to live with your decisions and you know made some mistakes or done some things to some people, you going to think about dying. There’s no way around it.

Matthew Schnipper: It sounds... You said something I think in a New York Times interview, you said you just want to sell your 5,000 albums and be left in peace.

Vince Staples: Yeah. Leave me alone. Shit.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. So, is that right? Is that how you feel?

Vince Staples: Absolutely. Well, you know, it’s different nowadays. We live in a different media space. Music changes every couple months, every year or so, so you got to kind of be overexposed. It was a point of time after Frank Ocean you can kind of mind your business, but them days is over. You need a Instagram and a Twitter and a this and a that, or it’s quiet for you.

Matthew Schnipper: But isn’t that kind of nice? You get to have a little bit of a cult personality? It’s not 5,000 records, maybe it’s 50,000 and a decent amount of streams with, you know, you’ve got a pretty intense fan base.

Vince Staples: The thing about it, I have... we got like five million streams the first day the album came out, that’s only like $5,000 though.

Matthew Schnipper: It’s like $12 or something, right?

Vince Staples: Yeah.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: It’s only seven billion people in this mother fucking world. It’s kind of a glass ceiling with this little music thing, you know what I mean?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: So, it would be cool if... You just giving away stuff for free that you would’ve got paid for a minute ago. You know what I mean? You’re on Instagram... Of course, you know, Instagram, you’re on Twitter, you on TV. You giving away free content. That could’ve been a Tonight Show, you know what I mean? But you get the... kind of make the most out of it. Everything is free now.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. Well, you had a moment I feel like where you were everywhere, and I guess for free.

Vince Staples: You don’t get paid for that.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, I know you don’t get paid for it, but–

Vince Staples: You don’t get paid for press, you know what I mean? It’s like, “Oh, come on TV and talk on our show for nothing. Come do this magazine spread,” even though niggas are not reading no more magazines. Ain’t nobody paying $20 to pick up something that they going to see on Twitter anyway, “But, you know, come do this for free because it’s going to help you, it’s going to help you, it’s going to help you.”

Matthew Schnipper: It seems like you like it. You’re good at it.

Vince Staples: I clock in, bro. Clock in, you clock out, I go to work. You know, you got to be professional with... That don’t mean you got to lie about what it is. You can know and still go, like, I appreciate everything, but you not fitting to sit here and play me.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you stopped for a little while, you stepped back from social media. I think it seemed like you were doing a lot of it. You were on GQ.com you were talking about basketball a lot.

Vince Staples: Yeah.

Matthew Schnipper: You don’t like that, what is that? You shook your head about it.

Vince Staples: No, the homie worked there so I wasn’t really tripping, but it’s like...

Matthew Schnipper: So, when you do... What’s–

Vince Staples: I want a show. [Shannon Sharpe] got a fucking show. Give me a fucking show.

Matthew Schnipper: Shark Tank’s a show, is that what you just said?

Vince Staples: Shannon Sharpe, Skip Bayliss, all that sport shit.

Matthew Schnipper: Oh, yeah. Shannon Sharpe’s got a show.

Vince Staples: Everybody wants... It’s crazy, and it’s hip-hop shit. Everybody want you to do something for free. It’s crazy. Everything is free.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, why did you do it? You’re clocking in?

Vince Staples: Yeah, clocking in, you know? I play that game, that too but. It’s all steps, you know? You got to get to certain part, but it’s a realization. It’s ways to transition and do certain things out here, but.

Matthew Schnipper: Would you ever consider in the future being a TV host? Being a radio host?

Vince Staples: Yeah, I didn’t consider doing this.

Matthew Schnipper: What’s that?

Vince Staples: I never considered doing this.

Matthew Schnipper: Doing what?

Vince Staples: Music.

Matthew Schnipper: Well how did you do it? You just fell into it?

Vince Staples: I already told you, it just happened.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you might just fall into being on “Weekend Update” or having a Netflix special, or whatever?

Vince Staples: I’m going with the flow, bro.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah? So, what–

Vince Staples: It’s all creative energy, you know, “we artists,” right? I fucking hate that word, but we artists right?

Matthew Schnipper: That’s what I’m going to ask you. Do you think you... Are you an artist?

Vince Staples: Me?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: Absolutely. Everybody else, I can’t really call it.

Matthew Schnipper: What do you mean you can’t...

Vince Staples: I don’t be knowing these days.

Matthew Schnipper: So, what makes you qualified as one and somebody else don’t?

Vince Staples: Have you heard my music?

Matthew Schnipper: Yes.

Vince Staples: Yeah, I be on some bullshit sometimes.

Matthew Schnipper: It’s artistic?

Vince Staples: I mean, I do whatever I want. That’s kind of the essence of it. I’m not really thinking about much past what my creative agenda is at that present moment.

Matthew Schnipper: You’re not thinking about it?

Vince Staples: No, never.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, you clearly have one.

Vince Staples: Yeah, but I’m not thinking past it is what I’m saying.

Matthew Schnipper: You’re just thinking about it right now?

Vince Staples: Yeah. Whatever I want to make is what I make. I don’t really care about much else.

Matthew Schnipper: So, what is it right now? Where are we?

Vince Staples: I’m on a break right now to be honest. No, for real. I’m really on a break.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you’re taking a break to let the creative thing like–

Vince Staples: I only have two shows until... I’m good until December.

Matthew Schnipper: What happens then?

Vince Staples: Then I start back, you know.

Matthew Schnipper: Getting onto a new creative moment?

Vince Staples: No, I got to go back to do some shows, go back to tap dancing, some Sammy Davis Jr. shit. And then I’m going... you know?

Matthew Schnipper: So, can we go back in time to some old creative agendas?

Vince Staples: We can do whatever you want. Me and you are friends. I don’t know these people, but I know you, so. You can ask whatever you want.

Matthew Schnipper: You know, I’m going to get married next year. My first date was at a Vince Staples concert. It worked out pretty good. Yeah, he said he’s going to officiate.

Vince Staples: You found love at my show, bro. It wasn’t really my show to be honest, but.

Matthew Schnipper: I think it might’ve been.

Vince Staples: I was there, so it’s all good.

Matthew Schnipper: That was a nice moment. Anyway, I want to go back to “Señorita.” Let’s play, I want to play the hook of this song. So, that was one of the more astonishing things to me to happen is that the hook of your song, which I saw a lot of people sing a lot to a number of times, is Future and is just sampled from another song, it’s not even original. What's up with that?

Vince Staples: That was already in the beat when I got it.

Matthew Schnipper: You made it...

Vince Staples: I’m dead serious. I’m...

Matthew Schnipper: What’s that?

Vince Staples: I promise you, it was already in the beat when I got it and I was like, “Oh, that’s Future.” I was like, “No, I’m not going to do that,” and they was like, “No, you got to do it.”

Matthew Schnipper: You got to do it?

Vince Staples: And, I was like, “No, I don’t,” and then Corey was like, “You should do it,” so I did it because Corey told me to.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you just do whatever Corey tells you to?

Vince Staples: Yeah. He not going to tell me nothing crazy and I’m not going to tell him nothing crazy, if I ask Corey to do something.

Matthew Schnipper: It seems like it’s working so far, I guess. Why mess with a good thing?

Vince Staples: I mean, shit, we got to Pitchfork. Corey met me when I was 17 and he said, “You got to stop bringing a gun to the studio,” and I was like, “No.”

Matthew Schnipper: Is this true, Corey?

Cory: [inaudible]

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, he says it’s true.

Vince Staples: I didn’t talk to him. I used to walk in the studio, say what’s up to Michael, put my gun in my safe, then leave because I had to catch the Blue Line to L.A., and to catch the Blue Line you got to go from Artesia Station, you got to go past Compton, then you got to go past [Westy], you pass the little Mexicans over there, then you got to kind of almost West L.A., you got to go to Hollywood, then you backtrack. I wasn’t fitting to be over there with nothing on me, what? You crazy.

Matthew Schnipper: That cause any problems for you?

Vince Staples: What?

Matthew Schnipper: What happened with the gun? Where’s the gun now?

Vince Staples: Oh, I don’t know. Somebody went to jail with that motherfucker. But, everybody’s good, so we good.

Matthew Schnipper: All right.

Vince Staples: That was a long time ago. I was like 17, that’s a 10-year-old gun damn near. We don’t know where that’s at. Matter of fact, I don’t even know what you talking about, but what I can–

Matthew Schnipper: It’s hard to do off-the-record in a room full of a couple hundred people, man.

Vince Staples: But I can... Oh, it’s a different state, we good. But what I did, you know, Corey’s like, “Hey,” then Corey start picking me up so I wouldn’t have to get on the Blue Line. My mama’s rent was kind of shaky, Corey paid my mama rent but I wasn’t even living there. I’m staying in the hood with my aunt with [inaudible] mama and it gets shaky over there, he paid that rent, and then he paid for the lawyer because they tried to kick us out the house because allegedly somebody got shot over there at the house and they took the property away or some shit like that, some crazy state law stuff I didn’t even know was possible. So, you know, if Corey tell me that, “Hey, we should probably try to do this song,” and a nigga that paid everybody’s rent before, what kind of mother fucker would I be to say, “No, I’m cool?”

Matthew Schnipper: No. Is it weird to be up on stage with a whole bunch of people singing a hook to song and it’s not you?

Vince Staples: No. It’s a breathing break. I don’t got to say nothing. I got asthma.

Matthew Schnipper: I want to talk to you a little bit about your shows, because when you are up on stage, recently, it’s just you. You dressed almost always I’ve seen you in all back, just very stark. There’s nothing else going on. You got no background, it’s just you. It’s kind of like, I mean, you used art before, I ain’t going to put it on you, but it’s kind of like art project-style to me.

Vince Staples: I’m nice, bro, I’m really tight. I got to think about it sometimes.

Matthew Schnipper: I want to talk about... You were talking about white people that you like and don’t like.

Vince Staples: Love white people, shout out white people.

Matthew Schnipper: Some of them–

Vince Staples: All of y’all are white. If you’re white, raise your hand. Don’t be shy. Oh, that’s a good percentage. You see this place, man? That’s crazy. Shit, I seen like two white people not raise they hand. We love you. It’s not a joke.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you said that there’s some shit–

Vince Staples: You seen that, right, Corey? Motherfucker’s like, “I’m not raising my hand for this nigger.” What were you saying though?

Matthew Schnipper: You performed that at a museum. I remember seeing you perform at a museum and I talked to you after and you’re like, “That’s a crowd of white people I really like. They all look like they do coke.”

Vince Staples: I said that?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah. Which is, I’m going to say it’s probably true. But then you talk–

Vince Staples: At the MoMA PS1, huh?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, yeah, at MoMA PS1 in New York City.

Vince Staples: Hell yeah it was for sure off the coke.

Matthew Schnipper: So, yeah, you were right then.

Vince Staples: I like jolly white people.

Matthew Schnipper: So, I want to know about the different kinds of white people that you do like and don’t like because–

Vince Staples: At the hip-hop show?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, well you said you were talking at the Gorillaz tour–

Vince Staples: So, this is what I don’t like, so here we go, boom. I don’t like–

Matthew Schnipper: Just break it down.

Vince Staples: I don’t like the “I understand you” white people. I don’t like the “you’re so brave” white people. Yeah, basically everybody else is cool, but...

Matthew Schnipper: You said–

Vince Staples: And I don’t like the “who does this nigger think he is” white people, because you at the rap show. But them is my only type three I’m not really fucking with. Everybody else, but it’s like don’t put your fist up with me, my nigga.

Matthew Schnipper: You did not like some of the white people, the Gorillaz tour of white people.

Vince Staples: Yeah, 2-0, Kansas City white, 40-year-old Kansas City white, you know what that is?

Matthew Schnipper: That’s a different kind, that’s not a great white.

Vince Staples: Shit, man, stop. Kansas City, Missouri, fuck out of here. You be on tour feeling like you fitting to go to jail. Remember that Waffle House? Oh, we was fitting to get smoked. It was crazy. Corey was like, “Y’all got cheese?” She was like, “No.” He’s like, “Well, what do you have?” She looked at the nigga cooking, and I was like, “We out of here.” Corey like, “No, we fitting to eat.” I’m like, “For sure, I’d rather die at home. I’m not fitting to die in no random state.”

Matthew Schnipper: Oh, yeah. That sucks.

Vince Staples: Yeah, it sucks, right?

Matthew Schnipper: This is funny, man.

Vince Staples: It’s beautiful. Waffle House, man. You got to go to them though.

Matthew Schnipper: I like Waffle House. You don’t look like you eat a lot of waffles. You don’t look like you got a lot of carbs.

Vince Staples: I fuck with waffles. I don’t like pancakes though. That’s not really my thing. Pancakes are kind of tacky to me.

Matthew Schnipper: Wait, why?

Vince Staples: There’s not enough construction, it’s a lot that goes into a waffle. I like the definition, the lines. Pancakes is like a half-ass waffle.

Matthew Schnipper: You a good cook?

Vince Staples: Huh?

Matthew Schnipper: Are you a good cook?

Vince Staples: I’m amazing.

Matthew Schnipper: You make waffles?

Vince Staples: No. I don’t really eat breakfast like that.

Matthew Schnipper: What do you like to eat?

Vince Staples: Not breakfast food. It’s too much bread, you know, I’ll eat anything else, you know what I mean?

Matthew Schnipper: A lot of protein. Are you paleo?

Vince Staples: I don’t even know what the fuck that mean. I didn’t graduate.

Matthew Schnipper: I’m white.

Vince Staples: Me too. Sometimes. When it suits.

Matthew Schnipper: Oh, man. Okay, let’s talk about, yeah, let's talk about Summertime '06. That was a cool record.

Vince Staples: That’s sweet, thank you.

Matthew Schnipper: You’re welcome. So, to me, that was a big record, right?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: No?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: Wasn’t a big record?

Vince Staples: Not at all.

Matthew Schnipper: Why not?

Vince Staples: Did literally, like statistically, like press-wise–

Matthew Schnipper: I’m talking vibes wise, not–

Vince Staples: Oh, like the way it sound?

Matthew Schnipper: Emotionally.

Vince Staples: Like to make?

Matthew Schnipper: I don’t know. Just in the world.

Vince Staples: It’s your question, what the fuck you mean you don't know?

Matthew Schnipper: It seemed like that was a breakthrough moment for you, did it feel like it?

Vince Staples: No, that was a lengthy process. It was extra.

Matthew Schnipper: Lengthy process to make it?

Vince Staples: Yeah, it was extra.

Matthew Schnipper: Why? What was extra about it?

Vince Staples: Just a lot of moving parts, a lot of people will say so and things like that. At that point in time you got to kind of make everybody happy I guess and do certain things, so it was a lot to put it out. That album was only like 10 songs and it was already done and we had turned it in, and then it was just a lot.

Matthew Schnipper: Okay. I mean, it’s a great record.

Vince Staples: Thank you.

Matthew Schnipper: It seemed like it captured a moment. It made it seem like this is the next version of California rap, to me. What is it that you wanted to get across with that album?

Vince Staples: I was really worried about the cover. That’s really all I was worried about to be honest.

Matthew Schnipper: So, there’s a wood cut on the cover.

Vince Staples: Oh, it’s just waves, but it’s just drawn and it’s like deconstructed.

Matthew Schnipper: Why were you worried about it?

Vince Staples: It took longer to make the cover than the album.

Matthew Schnipper: Really?

Vince Staples: I’m dead serious.

Matthew Schnipper: Who made the cover? What was the story behind the cover?

Vince Staples: Like four people. [Philly Blunt], [Bang Shane Sponto], me, and Corey, and Ty.

Matthew Schnipper: So, what’s behind the cover? What were you so worried about?

Vince Staples: I just, that’s what I care about to be honest. If all the music is trash but the cover tight, I’m cool. Like as far when I’m listening to something I can be like it’s not that hard, but the cover, like, because I got to look at that, you feel me? I can ignore your music. I can’t really ignore... I’m a visual person. What they say when they be trying to sound smart? I’m a visual learner. We record the album in like three weeks, but that cover took forever.

Matthew Schnipper: What about the name? I was curious about that, what were you doing in summertime ’06?

Vince Staples: Running around, thugging, hanging out, skateboarded a little bit. That was like the end of that.

Matthew Schnipper: Were you good at skateboarding?

Vince Staples: I was straight, yeah. I’m from Long Beach. You can’t not skateboard. If you going to pick up a skateboard and you not good, we going to beat your ass.

Matthew Schnipper: But you were saying, the record didn’t really... you didn’t feel like it broke through then?

Vince Staples: It didn’t. Only one song did, “Norf Norf” did and that was a year and a half after. I’m very honest with the things that happened to me because I don't have a ego when it comes to creating music. Nothing happened until “Norf Norf” almost broke through like a year after, then a year and a half after, or like two years after that lady did the little shit, and then that kind of... that’s what it was.

Matthew Schnipper: So, I didn’t want to ask you about that, you really like, you defended that lady though.

Vince Staples: Yeah, she can say whatever she want.

Matthew Schnipper: Can you explain to the folks what it is we’re talking about? Most people probably here know about that, but.

Vince Staples: Oh, the lady was like, “This is horrible music. Children should not be listening to this on the radio. It’s about killing people and stuff.” She was right. Children should not listen to songs about killing people on the radio.

Matthew Schnipper: So, why are you making them?

Vince Staples: Oh, I don’t care about them kids. At all. Just to be honest. Where I come from, the kids are already trying to kill people, so I don’t really give a fuck what's happening in butt-fuck over there. That’s they business, which is not a good thing to say, but it’s the truth.

Matthew Schnipper: You’re a very truthful person it seems like.

Vince Staples: I mean, yeah, they don’t pay me enough to be lying to these people.

Matthew Schnipper: A lot of people you were surprised you had that to say that to that. People wondered if you were trolling.

Vince Staples: I don’t... My nephew can’t listen to no cray... what? That nigga walked up in the house, talking about some, “Nigga, I’m a thug. Fuck the cops and the judge,” that’s straight to the chin. I got one, he got to listen to Jason Derulo.

Matthew Schnipper: That’s the new punishment? Listening to Jason Derulo?

Vince Staples: Don’t JT love Jason Derulo? Exactly. Square. My nephew is a square. He like Hunger Games. He play sports, his hair’s dyed. He want to be Odell Beckham. I’m with that. You should’ve seen me when I was a kid. Corey seen them pictures, I was thugging. I got baby pictures thugging.

Matthew Schnipper: What were you like? This is what I was trying to find out about.

Vince Staples: I was a badass kid.

Matthew Schnipper: Oh, I wish we had them, we could put them up.

Vince Staples: I’ll show you later.

Matthew Schnipper: So, you’re a pretty stylish dude. You always been pretty stylish?

Vince Staples: No, I was dusty, bro. I’m still low-key dusty.

Matthew Schnipper: No, that’s not true. You just said in a magazine, I was reading this earlier–

Vince Staples: I was being sarcastic.

Matthew Schnipper: I don’t think you were. You just talked about how you’re very truthful.

Vince Staples: Being sarcastic isn’t really necessarily lying. It’s like, “Oh, you must care about your appearance a lot?” It’s like, nigga, I got on sweatpants right now at the W magazine shoot. It’s oh, yeah, you got to be cute.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, you said that.

Vince Staples: Oh, that’s great. You know how these things go. You used to do that.

Matthew Schnipper: So, basically, I want to know how much do you consider yourself a troll?

Vince Staples: I don’t be trolling. I be dead serious about everything I say.

Matthew Schnipper: You...

Vince Staples: Even when I’m sarcastic, you can tell I’m sarcastic.

Matthew Schnipper: That’s–

Vince Staples: What have I ever said to you was like, “He’s fucking around?”

Matthew Schnipper: You are the most deadpan person I think I’ve ever talked to.

Vince Staples: I’m... Ask Corey. He right there, ask Corey.

Matthew Schnipper: [crosstalk].

Vince Staples: Corey, do I ever troll them or do I be telling the truth and then be like, “This nigger can’t be that crazy.”

Corey: My answers is you do troll them.

Vince Staples: When?

Matthew Schnipper: See.

Vince Staples: Oh, when I be bullshitting? That's different. I be bullshitting, I be joking. Trolling is like doing stuff for attention. He old, he don’t know what troll means. Troll mean you doing stuff–

Matthew Schnipper: Okay, wait. Wait, wait, explain the difference.

Vince Staples: Trolling is like the... What’s the nigga name with all the stupid-ass tattoos on his face? You know who I’m talking about. Yeah, he be trolling.

Matthew Schnipper: Okay, but you’re not, you’re just bullshitting?

Vince Staples: I’ll just be fucking with people. You got to say shit to have people be like, “Oh, yeah.”

Matthew Schnipper: This is what I talked to him about, I was like, “We’re going to go up here, just don’t troll me.”

Vince Staples: I remember when Black Lives Matter first cracked off–

Matthew Schnipper: I should’ve told him not to bulldoze me.

Vince Staples: ... and we was asking white people how they felt about Black Lives Matter, and they would just always be like, “Oh, man, I think it’s great.” We’re like, “For what though?” “Oh, you know, just you know, it’s just great.” Corey might think that’s trolling, but I just think it’s funny to make people uncomfortable. Because you not going to be comfortable around me, my nigga, that’s not how it work. I don’t do that. I’m not here to make people feel welcome. I’m here to be myself, you know what I mean? We cool, so you comfortable. I be saying some shit sometimes and Corey be like, “What’s wrong with you?” But that's the homie, so he don’t really be tripping on me, but.

Matthew Schnipper: No, he doesn’t mind.

Vince Staples: We been having fun. We had a interview, and I’m never going to forget this. I feel so bad for this lady because I was really being, I was really like fucking her day up. I couldn’t tell, but I guess I was fucking her day up. And then we was in the studio, Corey and Courtney pulled me in another room like, “Look, man, she says she doesn’t have anything for this interview and she doesn’t know if she’s making you mad, but we really need to finish this, blah, blah.” What did Courtney say when we was at studio? And I really hurt her feelings, but in my head I wasn’t doing nothing wrong to her. She was just asking me questions and I was telling her truth.

She’s like, “Oh, this must mean so much to you,” and this and that, and that. I’m like, “No, I’m chilling.” But it’s hard because motherfuckers be, you know, they put me in the Lupe Fiasco box. Remember when they did Lupe Fiasco when he first came out?

Matthew Schnipper: People loved Lupe Fiasco when he first came out.

Vince Staples: But then he was like, “Oh, I never heard Tribe Called Quest.” I’m like, “But how is that possible?”

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah, but then he started talking about the world being flat and people were like this is [crosstalk].

Vince Staples: And he can feel how he want, bro, you know what I mean? I’m not here for science. This is hip-hop.

Matthew Schnipper: So, what about Sprite?

Vince Staples: Yeah, shout-out Sprite, lemons and limes.

Matthew Schnipper: So–

Vince Staples: Carbonation, caffeine-free, vegan. They don’t test on animals. All these are facts, Google it.

Matthew Schnipper: You love Sprite. Tell me about why you like Sprite so much.

Vince Staples: It’s beautiful. What do you mean? It’s flame.

Matthew Schnipper: Do the Sprite people like you a lot? Do you like how much you promote it?

Vince Staples: Yeah, their whole campaign is based on the way I tweet. Do you follow their Twitter? It look like me.

Matthew Schnipper: I definitely do, yeah.

Vince Staples: Yeah, I would change some things but I’m proud of how the company’s moving forward.

Matthew Schnipper: You were saying... I think... Do you think you’re more famous because of Sprite or because of rapping?

Vince Staples: Interviews. I’m more famous for interviews than either one, and then the lady.

Matthew Schnipper: And the lady.

Vince Staples: Yeah.

Matthew Schnipper: All right. Do you really like Sprite that much?

Vince Staples: Yeah. Why would you ask me that knowing what I’m going to say? I love Sprite.

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: For these next two years. For the length of this contract, I adore Sprite. You won’t ever see me with another... what? I don’t know Pepsi, Shasta, that bullshit. Coca-Cola-brand only, no Red Bulls, only you know, NAS energy, mother energy. You tired? Yeah, you don’t even know about the shit on the brand, look at you. No Dr. Pepper, no none of that.

Matthew Schnipper: Sprite only.

Vince Staples: You know what I mean?

Matthew Schnipper: All right, I want to talk about another record here. You put a record out not so long ago called Big Fish Theory. You talked about it a little bit, but I’m wondering if you can tell me what the theory is.

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: Why not?

Vince Staples: I’ll never tell nobody that.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, you want to explain it?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: Why not?

Vince Staples: It doesn't matter.

Matthew Schnipper: You named your album that.

Vince Staples: So?

Matthew Schnipper: Oh my God.

Vince Staples: When The Game put out The Documentary, they was like, “Oh, so what’s the documentary about?” Like, nigga, it's called The Documentary, there you go. Dr. Dre, The Chronic, so why is it The Chronic? Because it’s The Chronic, my nigga. We live in a damn time where motherfuckers are stupid, bro, you have to literally tell somebody the specifics of something every step of the way because we’re not in a era where people can formulate their own opinion. I’ve seen motherfuckers repeat stuff that people have said about me in interviews like it’s the truth. It’s crazy and it’s kind of scary because it’s a Mac Miller, Earl Sweatshirt, I forgot whoever the fuck... It was Red Bull I think, and we don’t drink that though, but it was Red Bull and we did like a “inside the beat” thing.

Earl has said, “Oh, Vince doesn’t breathe when he raps, he has gills.” To this day, motherfuckers still sit there and lie and say I don’t breathe when I rap. I have asthma. You can hear it. It’s a lot of punches, it’s a lot of breathing, but since somebody said it, you’re going to say it. You get what I’m saying? So, until I say what Big Fish Theory means, I don’t mean nothing to nobody because they won’t have their own opinion. Even when it comes to how people report, and journalists, like when the last time you seen a interview that didn’t reference another interview in the interview?

Matthew Schnipper: I literally just did that like 30 seconds ago.

Vince Staples: Touché.

Matthew Schnipper: I mean, I don’t even know if you think that’s bad or good though.

Vince Staples: It just means like... We’ve done four interviews where the motherfuckers hold interviews about what I said in other interviews, and I’m talking about in print, in a magazine, they booked a flight to come out here, paid a photographer, paid a writer, just to refer to some other shit. It’s like motherfuckers can think for theyselves, so like I don’t feel the need to explain myself. Take it how you want, but at this day and age you kind of have to spoon-feed everything, that’s just weak. Big Fish Theory means 12 songs by Vince Staples and you... Is it 12 songs? I don’t know, but those 12, 11, whatever songs, you kind of use them and apply them to your normal life and it mean what you want it to mean.

Matthew Schnipper: So, that’s makes me want... What do you think about then... Do you like it when other people have their theories?

Vince Staples: Yeah.

Matthew Schnipper: But you just don’t want to confirm them or comment on their theories?

Vince Staples: Because it’s right. If that’s how you feel... If you purchased my album and then that’s what it means to you, that’s what it means.

Matthew Schnipper: And that’s it?

Vince Staples: Period.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, I thought it was interesting, I’m going to give my theory. I like that record a lot. I like that you work with Flume, you work with a lot of dance producers on there, and I was thinking about how actually we were in Chicago and it kind of sometimes sounds like a hip-house record to me, which I always liked. And I wanted to know how purposeful it was, it seemed like–

Vince Staples: As far as what?

Matthew Schnipper: As far as... It seemed like a different sound to me. Maybe you’re saying you just fell into it.

Vince Staples: I mean, but nothing sounds the same.

Matthew Schnipper: You think it sounds the same?

Vince Staples: Summertime '06 don't sound like Hell Can Wait, Hell Can Wait don't sound like Shyne Coldchain Vol. 1, that don’t sound like Shyne Coldchain Vol. 2, that don’t sound like... None of my stuff sounds the same. It’s not a repeating effort in any of my music, so.

Matthew Schnipper: It seemed like though, when we talk about “Señorita,” we talk about “Norf Norf,” those are songs that are pretty hard, like there’s a lot of just super poppy stuff on this record.

Vince Staples: I mean, that’s pop? Migos is pop now, Cardi B is pop. Pop means popular. Pop, for a second, just meant corny and bubblegummy shit like that, but Michael Jackson made pop music about, you know, not taking care of kids that’s being claimed to him and shit like that. It’s like, it all depends on what you look at it as.

Matthew Schnipper: I don’t know. I think it’s different. That’s my theory.

Vince Staples: I mean, but different is good. Music is supposed to be different. When Michael Jackson came out and was a zombie at the movie theater, that was different, that was new, still subjectively pop. You can’t really... It’s just everything is kind of repetitive at this point in time, so.

Matthew Schnipper: Well–

Vince Staples: People don’t even like my music like that, so I don’t really care what they say.

Matthew Schnipper: Well, let me ask a broader question, do you think you’re a good rapper?

Vince Staples: I’m amazing.

Matthew Schnipper: You think so?

Vince Staples: I know.

Matthew Schnipper: How do you know?

Vince Staples: I’m amazing, trust me.

Matthew Schnipper: All right. But, so when you think about that, do you think about how you can make it sound and work differently? Do you think, “I’m a good rapper, I can do this in a million different ways?”

Vince Staples: Yeah, definitely. As a creative person or artist, whatever you want to call it, you always think of ways. It gets old. You get bored. And it depends on what you do it for, like I don’t need your attention or your money. We going to find some money, so I’m going to do things for the sake of doing them. I want to... I make music to see what I want to make next. I mean, I’m not going... It’s like eating the same shit every day, like I want to kind of change what I do from time to time when I get bored. But all I think about is how I’m going to make the music. Like I said earlier, basically I create a vision. It’s not really ever based on what somebody wants or how much we going to gain for it.

Because people be doing the same thing over and over and over again because they know it’s going to work. They know it’s going to work, so if it’s going to work, they’ll get some attention from that, from that attention they going to get some money, and then they can hold it to they ear, but I’m not really focused on that.

Matthew Schnipper: So, how do you discover things? Do you Shazam?

Vince Staples: No.

Matthew Schnipper: How do you find new music, new sounds? How do you find what’s going to be interesting to–

Vince Staples: I don’t really listen to music that much to be honest, bro. Because it’s overbearing.

Matthew Schnipper: So, then–

Vince Staples: I tour, I do a show almost every day.

Matthew Schnipper: So, how do you find new beats? How do things... For the beats for Big Fish Theory, how did all the sounds come to you?

Vince Staples: I told them what to make.

Matthew Schnipper: You told people to make them?

Vince Staples: Yeah. You ever... Listen to Flume’s music and then listen to my music that he do for me. If anybody that’s ever produced for me, go listen to my music then listen to what they’ve done with other people. You not going to find it again.

Matthew Schnipper: Are you happy with the record?

Vince Staples: It’s cool.

Matthew Schnipper: So, what’s going to be next? You said you make music now to figure out what’s going to be next.

Vince Staples: I’m just kicking it right now to be real. But you never know. It’ll just pop up one day, I’ll think about it and I’ll know what I want to do.

Matthew Schnipper: I have one more question I just personally wanted to know. What do you think about SoundCloud rap?

Vince Staples: What is that? Like, example. Is Lil Uzi Vert SoundCloud rap?

Matthew Schnipper: I think, yeah.

Vince Staples: I love Lil Uzi Vert.

Matthew Schnipper: Okay. What do you think about Lil Pump?

Vince Staples: I’ve never heard a song.

Matthew Schnipper: No?

Vince Staples: Is he white?

Matthew Schnipper: No.

Vince Staples: What is he?

Matthew Schnipper: You got to ask Corey.

Vince Staples: Spanish? Like Mexican?

Cory: Puerto Rican.

Vince Staples: He’s from Puerto Rico?

Matthew Schnipper: He’s Puerto Rican.

Vince Staples: Is he white from Puerto Rico? Because that’s a thing. I don’t know how I feel about white people with dreads, that’s just my take on that, but I never heard his music and I hope he does well. I hope everybody saving they money and being rude to people, that’s all I really care about. But as far as all these niggas looking alike and like... I just know who don’t shot somebody before, so when I hear people talk like that type of shit it’s like... I just did a whole album without one act of violence in it and I was really proud of myself because I can’t be thinking about shit like that, bro. I’m over that type of stuff. It’s no violence, no cripping, no none of that in my album. I don’t know if people noticed that, but I don’t really say nigga unless it was on purpose. I only said nigga on the Rick Ross hook. You know? I’m growing up a little, you feel me?

Matthew Schnipper: What makes you happy?

Vince Staples: What makes me happy?

Matthew Schnipper: Yeah.

Vince Staples: Chili cheese fries.

Elia Einhorn: This has been In Sight Out, a series of podcasts from Pitchfork and the Museum of Contemporary Art Chicago that explore new perspectives on music, art, and culture. In Sight Out is present by MailChimp: Build your brand, sell more stuff. This podcast was produced by me, Elia Einhorn and Mark Yoshizumi and engineered by Mark Yoshizumi. Additional engineering by Rich Norwood. Our executive producer is Seth Dodson. Thanks to the MCA for hosting the event.