1 #1 blinK 71 Frags – + I'm probably the last person who should be bringing this up. But to me it's a pretty big deal. We all know what ESEA did with the client was horse shit. That doesn't change the fact though that for 15 season its been our bread and butter for organized competition, and LAN. We have I think 4 teams signed up for open.. If there isn't enough teams in open then ESEA-TF2 will cease to exist. I know certain top guys like Platinum for instance.. If there's no LAN, say good-bye. ESEA funds its LAN amongst other things through team count and if there isn't 20-30 teams signed up in open the league won't be able to fund itself to make it worthwhile to keep the TF2 division as is. CEVO could be a good thing but I don't think it's smart to jump the gun this early because maybe, just maybe we're making a giant mistake and going to regret it. And at some point there's no going back. CEVO is like a DayZ game in its alpha stages. There's definitely an upside but it's not there quite yet. On top of the fact that its already fallen once. Yes we have some good people manning the ship over there and I have much faith in them but it's going to take time. The last thing we want to do is divide or split the community in any way. ESEA dies and a lot of our top players stop playing. Something like this could kill the competitive side of OUR game. You slash your player count right in half and then you're going to start playing 4v4's instead of 6v6's. I personally planned to play in ESEA and CEVO. I just truly believe it's a giant mistake to let the league with 50+ teams registered still, simply die. I literally saw the exact same thing happen in TFC 10 years ago and it's very real and can happen very quick. I PERSONALLY don't care what league I play in as long as i'm having fun with friends. But for the good of TF2 as a whole I think ESEA needs to stay for now. Just my opinion. The top teams have only stuck around this long primarily because of LAN. 10 days left to register so there's still time. Really think about the big picture and make a rational decision. Either way you're going to be playing TF2, what will change is what level of competition and how much competition will be left after the split. The money to play has never been an issue for this many years so I don't know why it should be now. In short, before making any irrational decisions lets give ESEA a chance to clean up its act (which for all we know, it already has) and continue playing to avoid a community collapse at the highest level. Some people have been playing seasons and seasons to get to IM, Main, or Invite. Now we just let it die to go play CEVO-Main or CEVO-O and forget about what we've built up for over half a decade? Really seems like it's too early to make a really big decision like this. Let CEVO get its stuff together before we make the move as a whole. A lot of the cevo site isn't really functioning still as well. It will definitely have a huge effect on the community and I don't think people are realizing it yet. Big picture here, think in the present and not the future. This post wasn't meant to bash either league in any way I just want whats best for our game and its competitive players. It may seem like a cool idea to go with CEVO and just let ESEA die but it really isn't as simple as that, nor is it the right time just yet. CEVO definitely needs more time to get everything together. Rushing things will only make matters worse. ESEA S15 was a successful campaign I don't understand the need for change as long as there's no longer malware involved in the client. This past season we included a main division which was a HUGE success. Four divisions now of skill level compared to CEVO's 2? There was no #1 seed playoff teams who won the championship for their division which means the competition is tightening. In my eyes it's getting better not worse. That's why I am posting this. Get the ball rolling people this is our[/i] game lets keep it together! I'm probably the last person who should be bringing this up. But to me it's a pretty big deal. We all know what ESEA did with the client was horse shit. That doesn't change the fact though that for 15 season its been our bread and butter for organized competition, and LAN. We have I think 4 teams signed up for open.. [b]If there isn't enough teams in open then ESEA-TF2 will cease to exist.[/b] I know certain top guys like Platinum for instance.. If there's no LAN, say good-bye. ESEA funds its LAN amongst other things through team count and if there isn't 20-30 teams signed up in open the league won't be able to fund itself to make it worthwhile to keep the TF2 division as is. CEVO could be a good thing but I don't think it's smart to jump the gun this early because maybe, just maybe we're making a giant mistake and going to regret it. And at some point there's no going back. CEVO is like a DayZ game in its alpha stages. There's definitely an upside but it's not there quite yet. On top of the fact that its already fallen once. Yes we have some good people manning the ship over there and I have much faith in them but it's going to take time. The last thing we want to do is divide or split the community in any way. ESEA dies and a lot of our top players stop playing. Something like this could kill the competitive side of OUR game. You slash your player count right in half and then you're going to start playing 4v4's instead of 6v6's. I personally planned to play in ESEA and CEVO. I just truly believe it's a giant mistake to let the league with 50+ teams registered still, simply die. I literally saw the exact same thing happen in TFC 10 years ago and it's very real and can happen very quick.



I PERSONALLY don't care what league I play in as long as i'm having fun with friends. But for the good of TF2 as a whole I think ESEA needs to stay for now. Just my opinion. The top teams have only stuck around this long primarily because of LAN. 10 days left to register so there's still time. Really think about the big picture and make a rational decision. Either way you're going to be playing TF2, what will change is what level of competition and how much competition will be left after the split. The money to play has never been an issue for this many years so I don't know why it should be now.



In short, before making any irrational decisions lets give ESEA a chance to clean up its act (which for all we know, it already has) and continue playing to avoid a community collapse at the highest level. Some people have been playing seasons and seasons to get to IM, Main, or Invite. Now we just let it die to go play CEVO-Main or CEVO-O and forget about what we've built up for over half a decade? Really seems like it's too early to make a really big decision like this. Let CEVO get its stuff together before we make the move as a whole. A lot of the cevo site isn't really functioning still as well.



It will definitely have a huge effect on the community and I don't think people are realizing it yet. Big picture here, think in the present and not the future. This post wasn't meant to bash either league in any way I just want whats best for our game and its competitive players. It may seem like a cool idea to go with CEVO and just let ESEA die but it really isn't as simple as that, nor is it the right time just yet. CEVO definitely needs more time to get everything together. Rushing things will only make matters worse. [b]ESEA S15 was a successful campaign I don't understand the need for change as long as there's no longer malware involved in the client.[/b] This past season we included a main division which was a HUGE success. Four divisions now of skill level compared to CEVO's 2? There was no #1 seed playoff teams who won the championship for their division which means the competition is tightening. In my eyes it's getting better not worse. That's why I am posting this. Get the ball rolling people this is [b][i]our[/b][/i] game lets keep it together!

2 #2 KAMO 12 Frags – + From my perspective, it appears as if the only people being vocal about threatening to quit TF2 without ESEA are mix^ members. Just because some people leave, doesn't mean the game is dead. There will be replacement players moving up the ranks to replace those that retire, this is how all competitive sports work. There are lots of invite and main level players also being vocal about just wanting to play the game and are forming teams elsewhere. High-level, skilled players have played seasons of UGC, in recent years and now many are signing up for CEVO. Will the dynamic change, should ESEA drop TF2? Yes, but this is not a monarchy and ESEA is not the king. TF2, even the competitive side is fueled by the "proletariat" Your need to post this topic proves my point, the people have spoken. From my perspective, it appears as if the only people being vocal about threatening to quit TF2 without ESEA are mix^ members. Just because some people leave, doesn't mean the game is dead. There will be replacement players moving up the ranks to replace those that retire, this is how all competitive sports work. There are lots of invite and main level players also being vocal about just wanting to play the game and are forming teams elsewhere. High-level, skilled players have played seasons of UGC, in recent years and now many are signing up for CEVO. Will the dynamic change, should ESEA drop TF2? Yes, but this is not a monarchy and ESEA is not the king. TF2, even the competitive side is fueled by the "proletariat" Your need to post this topic proves my point, the people have spoken.

3 #3 JohnMilter -49 Frags – + http://www.ugcleague.com/players_page.cfm?player_id=76561197960905115 more and more insight from steel hl players. http://www.ugcleague.com/players_page.cfm?player_id=76561197960905115



more and more insight from steel hl players.

4 #4 blinK 23 Frags – + No offense to UGC, but Lonely Hearts won the 6's top division last season so that's irrelevent imo. They finished I think 7th or 8th in ESEA-OPEN? The competition will be extremely watered down if you split the league up into 2 divisions. And I think there will be more fallout than just mix^. For the guys who have been playing for 10+ seasons they enjoy going to LAN and use it as a goal to achieve. If you thought the open competition was unfair what do you think CEVO will bring? I'm not saying the switch to CEVO wouldn't or couldn't work. I'm saying that it's not going to make anything better, but much worse. Definitely not ready. There's no reason to switch as of right now. That's my point. I played in CEVO last season with Bob & Weave and we off classed huntsman on our way to the grand finals. It was extremely fun but it's not ESEA standard competition by a land slide. If you don't want the best competition then ESEA isn't for you and never will be so I understand why you play in UGC. I can understand a new players pov from people like you KAMO, but to those of us who have been around for years it's a lot more complicated than what your understanding of the situation is. No offense to UGC, but Lonely Hearts won the 6's top division last season so that's irrelevent imo. They finished I think 7th or 8th in ESEA-OPEN? The competition will be extremely watered down if you split the league up into 2 divisions. And I think there will be more fallout than just mix^. For the guys who have been playing for 10+ seasons they enjoy going to LAN and use it as a goal to achieve. If you thought the open competition was unfair what do you think CEVO will bring? I'm not saying the switch to CEVO wouldn't or couldn't work. I'm saying that it's not going to make anything better, but much worse. Definitely not ready. There's no reason to switch as of right now. That's my point. I played in CEVO last season with Bob & Weave and we off classed huntsman on our way to the grand finals. It was extremely fun but it's not ESEA standard competition by a land slide. If you don't want the best competition then ESEA isn't for you and never will be so I understand why you play in UGC.



I can understand a new players pov from people like you KAMO, but to those of us who have been around for years it's a lot more complicated than what your understanding of the situation is.

5 #5 Devon 18 Frags – + KAMO From my perspective, it appears as if the only people being vocal about threatening to quit TF2 without ESEA are mix^ members. Just because some people leave, doesn't mean the game is dead. There will be replacement players moving up the ranks to replace those that retire, this is how all competitive sports work. There are lots of invite and main level players also being vocal about just wanting to play the game and are forming teams elsewhere. High-level, skilled players have played seasons of UGC, in recent years and now many are signing up for CEVO. Will the dynamic change, should ESEA drop TF2? Yes, but this is not a monarchy and ESEA is not the king. TF2, even the competitive side is fueled by the "proletariat" Your need to post this topic proves my point, the people have spoken. Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons? idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^. [quote=KAMO]From my perspective, it appears as if the only people being vocal about threatening to quit TF2 without ESEA are mix^ members. Just because some people leave, doesn't mean the game is dead. There will be replacement players moving up the ranks to replace those that retire, this is how all competitive sports work. There are lots of invite and main level players also being vocal about just wanting to play the game and are forming teams elsewhere. High-level, skilled players have played seasons of UGC, in recent years and now many are signing up for CEVO. Will the dynamic change, should ESEA drop TF2? Yes, but this is not a monarchy and ESEA is not the king. TF2, even the competitive side is fueled by the "proletariat" Your need to post this topic proves my point, the people have spoken.[/quote]



Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^.

6 #6 KAMO -27 Frags – + Devon Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^. StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that. [quote=Devon]Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^.[/quote]

StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that.

7 #7 blinK 17 Frags – + Scrims don't really mean much, in case you didn't know. Lets not get off topic here though. The question is: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client? Is there any logical reason? It still provides the best website, best division organization, best competition, prizes, and LAN. So we goto CEVO prematurely.. Use a website that isn't fully functional yet, with 2 divisions. Play in watered down competition due to the lack of top teams participating seriously, lack of top players being present, and having unequal skilled teams participating. Prizes but not as much, and of course no LAN? Yes CEVO could keep evolving and improve but how fast? I don't think 10 days is enough to out do ESEA just yet. So again: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client? Scrims don't really mean much, in case you didn't know. Lets not get off topic here though.



The question is: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client? Is there any logical reason? It still provides the best website, best division organization, best competition, prizes, and LAN.



So we goto CEVO prematurely.. Use a website that isn't fully functional yet, with 2 divisions. Play in watered down competition due to the lack of top teams participating seriously, lack of top players being present, and having unequal skilled teams participating. Prizes but not as much, and of course no LAN?



Yes CEVO could keep evolving and improve but how fast? I don't think 10 days is enough to out do ESEA just yet. So again: [b]Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client?[/b]

8 #8 downpour 23 Frags – + as happy as I am that the great duwatna is making his return to invite, scrims dont mean jack shit. as happy as I am that the great duwatna is making his return to invite, scrims dont mean jack shit.

9 #9 pot 14 Frags – + The season was delayed 2 weeks because of people not updating client

IM finals didn't have a working STV

Hivemind couldn't play Open LB finals because of client

Grand finals had to be delayed 3 hours at first and then 2 days because of client CEVO seems to care about TF2 for now so I don't see any harm in trying to play both. The season was delayed 2 weeks because of people not updating client

IM finals didn't have a working STV

Hivemind couldn't play Open LB finals because of client

Grand finals had to be delayed 3 hours at first and then 2 days because of client



CEVO seems to care about TF2 for now so I don't see any harm in trying to play both.

10 #10 SleepingLife 45 Frags – + Basically the reason this has occurred is 3 fold. 1 People complain about esea every season. Now in context all of the complaints are pretty minor, but it still makes a general atmosphere of discontent to the new blood who never have played esea before. 2 Apart from 3 posts esea has no official presence on tf.tv. So the new players don't hear much in esea defense that isn't written by mix^. 3 Cevo took the time to get reps who then aggressively pushed for their game. Lange, Nahanni, and now quindali are all actively promoting cevo. That was a pretty smart move because Nahanni and Lange have a huge amount of goodwill stored up with the lower level people in this game. So basically, because cevo spent so much time hyping their league all the newbies will go to it. Esea still has better competition but they didn't take the time to fight for players where it mattered. If you guys honestly think that competition will determine a leagues success then you're delusional. League success is all about convincing the low level players to sign up for you. Which cevo absolutely crushed esea this season in terms of marketing and appearance. Basically the reason this has occurred is 3 fold.



1 People complain about esea every season. Now in context all of the complaints are pretty minor, but it still makes a general atmosphere of discontent to the new blood who never have played esea before.



2 Apart from 3 posts esea has no official presence on tf.tv. So the new players don't hear much in esea defense that isn't written by mix^.



3 Cevo took the time to get reps who then aggressively pushed for their game. Lange, Nahanni, and now quindali are all actively promoting cevo. That was a pretty smart move because Nahanni and Lange have a huge amount of goodwill stored up with the lower level people in this game.



So basically, because cevo spent so much time hyping their league all the newbies will go to it. Esea still has better competition but they didn't take the time to fight for players where it mattered. If you guys honestly think that competition will determine a leagues success then you're delusional. League success is all about convincing the low level players to sign up for you. Which cevo absolutely crushed esea this season in terms of marketing and appearance.

11 #11 KAMO -9 Frags – + blinK No offense to UGC, but Lonely Hearts won the 6's top division last season so that's irrelevent imo. They finished I think 7th or 8th in ESEA-OPEN? The competition will be extremely watered down if you split the league up into 2 divisions. And I think there will be more fallout than just mix^. For the guys who have been playing for 10+ seasons they enjoy going to LAN and use it as a goal to achieve. If you thought the open competition was unfair what do you think CEVO will bring? I'm not saying the switch to CEVO wouldn't or couldn't work. I'm saying that it's not going to make anything better, but much worse. Definitely not ready. There's no reason to switch as of right now. That's my point.



I can understand a new players pov from you KAM, but to those of us who have been around for years it's a lot more complicated than what your understanding of the situation is. Unfortunately, the ESEA ship is sinking and I applaud your loyalty for trying to patch the hole as you go down with it, but the majority have jumped ship and are in life boats, headed for new beginnings. I don't claim to have much comp experience, I'm looking at it objectively from the outside, so yes my perspective is different. Will the first season be a bit jumbled, competition-wise, yes, of course, but one season of transition is nothing for the longevity and happiness of the majority. [quote=blinK]No offense to UGC, but Lonely Hearts won the 6's top division last season so that's irrelevent imo. They finished I think 7th or 8th in ESEA-OPEN? The competition will be extremely watered down if you split the league up into 2 divisions. And I think there will be more fallout than just mix^. For the guys who have been playing for 10+ seasons they enjoy going to LAN and use it as a goal to achieve. If you thought the open competition was unfair what do you think CEVO will bring? I'm not saying the switch to CEVO wouldn't or couldn't work. I'm saying that it's not going to make anything better, but much worse. Definitely not ready. There's no reason to switch as of right now. That's my point.



I can understand a new players pov from you KAM, but to those of us who have been around for years it's a lot more complicated than what your understanding of the situation is.[/quote]

Unfortunately, the ESEA ship is sinking and I applaud your loyalty for trying to patch the hole as you go down with it, but the majority have jumped ship and are in life boats, headed for new beginnings. I don't claim to have much comp experience, I'm looking at it objectively from the outside, so yes my perspective is different. Will the first season be a bit jumbled, competition-wise, yes, of course, but one season of transition is nothing for the longevity and happiness of the majority.

12 #12 downpour 11 Frags – + The fact of the matter is that ESEA has far more resources, sponsors and 'tenure' than CEVO and in that way is much better for exposure for TF2. Yes, it has fucked up many many times, especially last season it seems, shit happens. I don't really care for which league we play in, but if you wanna see TF2 live for more than a year or two from now on, I'd have to say ESEA is the only way to make that happen. CEVO is a league that died and disappeared for almost 2 years, how you can expect a league like that to be attractive to sponsors is something that I don't understand. It now resurfaces suddenly appearing as the messiah to save the players from ESEA, and while it might work for two MAYBE three seasons, I don't think it'll bring what a game needs to stay alive; competition. CEVO might be nice, but I think it'll be what puts the final nails in the coffin that is NATF2. tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors. The fact of the matter is that ESEA has far more resources, sponsors and 'tenure' than CEVO and in that way is much better for exposure for TF2. Yes, it has fucked up many many times, especially last season it seems, shit happens. I don't really care for which league we play in, but if you wanna see TF2 live for more than a year or two from now on, I'd have to say ESEA is the only way to make that happen. CEVO is a league that died and disappeared for almost 2 years, how you can expect a league like that to be attractive to sponsors is something that I don't understand. It now resurfaces suddenly appearing as the messiah to save the players from ESEA, and while it might work for two MAYBE three seasons, I don't think it'll bring what a game needs to stay alive; competition.



CEVO might be nice, but I think it'll be what puts the final nails in the coffin that is NATF2.



tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors.

13 #13 blinK 7 Frags – + New players do determine a leagues success. As I stated in above posts I don't understand why new players would want to play anywhere but ESEA? You realize you're going to be playing ESEA-Main teams in CEVO-Open right? CEVO is doing great things and making big strides. It's just not ready yet. I have a lot of faith in the people who stepped up to bring CEVO into the mix but there's still A LOT of work to be done. No league is EVER perfect. STV's might be down rarely, client problems, routing issues. It happens in every game just about. It doesn't change the fact that ESEA is still hands down the premier league for many different reasons as stated above. Why let it sink into oblivion for no good reason after 15 successful seasons? Doesn't make any sense to me. The only reason I could think of is the malware on the client. And that's gone. New players do determine a leagues success. As I stated in above posts I don't understand why new players would want to play anywhere but ESEA? You realize you're going to be playing ESEA-Main teams in CEVO-Open right?



CEVO is doing great things and making big strides. It's just not ready yet. I have a lot of faith in the people who stepped up to bring CEVO into the mix but there's still A LOT of work to be done.



[b]No league is EVER perfect. STV's might be down rarely, client problems, routing issues. It happens in every game just about. It doesn't change the fact that ESEA is still hands down the premier league for many different reasons as stated above.[/b]



Why let it sink into oblivion for no good reason after 15 successful seasons? Doesn't make any sense to me. The only reason I could think of is the malware on the client. And that's gone.

14 #14 KAMO 2 Frags – + JohnMilter http://www.ugcleague.com/players_page.cfm?player_id=76561197960905115



more and more insight from steel hl players. LOL buddy, I never claimed to be your Invite idol. This is far beyond the scope of players' skills, the underlying issues are more about business practices, publicity, politics and ethics. [quote=JohnMilter]http://www.ugcleague.com/players_page.cfm?player_id=76561197960905115



more and more insight from steel hl players.[/quote]

LOL buddy, I never claimed to be your Invite idol. This is far beyond the scope of players' skills, the underlying issues are more about business practices, publicity, politics and ethics.

15 #15 Snowy 24 Frags – + Looks to me like ESEA should already be dropping TF2 soon anyway. Only 4 teams in open and most of those "50+ teams registered" seems to just be shells that are carrying over from last season. In which case fucking rip. Really, ESEA only has themselves to blame for this. CEVO was smart when they were not, and now they lost all their customers. Woe. Looks to me like ESEA should already be dropping TF2 soon anyway.



Only 4 teams in open and most of those "50+ teams registered" seems to just be shells that are carrying over from last season. In which case fucking rip.



Really, ESEA only has themselves to blame for this. CEVO was smart when they were not, and now they lost all their customers. Woe.

16 #16 Devon 9 Frags – + KAMO Devon Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^. StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that. you should take scrim results with a grain of salt; don't pay too much attention to stats in general. [quote=KAMO][quote=Devon]Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^.[/quote]

StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that.[/quote]



you should take scrim results with a grain of salt; don't pay too much attention to stats in general.

17 #17 KAMO -29 Frags – + Devon KAMO Devon Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^. StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that.

you should take scrim results with a grain of salt; don't pay too much attention to stats in general. Holy fucking shit, a constructive/helpful response...thank you, and noted. [quote=Devon][quote=KAMO][quote=Devon]Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^.[/quote]

StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that.[/quote]



you should take scrim results with a grain of salt; don't pay too much attention to stats in general.[/quote]

Holy fucking shit, a constructive/helpful response...thank you, and noted.

18 #18 m 3 Frags – + KAMO Devon Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^. StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that. ag was beating mixup in preseason scrims s13 and ended up going 3-13 and finishing last pre season scrims where everybody is trying to figure out what they are doing basically mean the teams are competitive and thats it [quote=KAMO][quote=Devon]Replacement players? Hasn't it been mix^ vs. b4nny's team past like 10 seasons?



idk man but it doesn't seem like there will be too many replacement players for a team as good as mix^.[/quote]

StreetHoops 5-1'ed mix^ on Gullywash the other night. There are plenty of good up-and-coming teams, I think the whole Plat vs. B4nny team dynamic is getting stale. I don't think I'm alone on that.[/quote]



ag was beating mixup in preseason scrims s13 and ended up going 3-13 and finishing last



pre season scrims where everybody is trying to figure out what they are doing basically mean the teams are competitive and thats it

19 #19 kirby 11 Frags – + downpour tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors. Which ultimately means CEVO will, unless something goes wrong, replace ESEA in time? [quote=downpour]tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors.[/quote]



Which ultimately means CEVO will, unless something goes wrong, replace ESEA in time?

20 #20 blinK -11 Frags – + Snowy: The question is: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client? Is there any logical reason? It still provides the best website, best division organization, best competition and players, prizes, and LAN. So we goto CEVO prematurely.. Use a website that isn't fully functional yet, with 2 divisions. Play in watered down competition due to the lack of top teams participating seriously, lack of top players being present, and having unequal skilled teams participating. Prizes but not as much, and of course no LAN? Yes CEVO could keep evolving and improve but how fast? I don't think 10 days is enough to out do ESEA just yet. So again: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client? This isn't business for the players it's a league for US to play in to compete. This remains: If we let ESEA die and CEVO turns out to not be a good replacement where does that leave competitive TF2? TF2center.com? Pubs? Think for just one minute. ESEA is far from perfect, no league is. But at least we know it's always going to be there with the best and most serious competition. [b]Snowy:[/b]



The question is: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client? Is there any logical reason? It still provides the best website, best division organization, best competition and players, prizes, and LAN.



So we goto CEVO prematurely.. Use a website that isn't fully functional yet, with 2 divisions. Play in watered down competition due to the lack of top teams participating seriously, lack of top players being present, and having unequal skilled teams participating. Prizes but not as much, and of course no LAN?



Yes CEVO could keep evolving and improve but how fast? I don't think 10 days is enough to out do ESEA just yet. So again: Why do we need to let ESEA die as long as they're not running malware on their client?



[b]This isn't business for the players it's a league for US to play in to compete.[/b]



This remains: If we let ESEA die and CEVO turns out to not be a good replacement where does that leave competitive TF2? TF2center.com? Pubs? Think for just one minute. ESEA is far from perfect, no league is. But at least we know it's always going to be there with the best and most serious competition.

21 #21 Devon 17 Frags – + downpour tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors. tbh i was all for esea, initially didn't want anything to do with cevo nor did i think it would be successful, but as for right now it has alot of new blood signed up & ready, so if all they need is refined players playing in their league why not take the switch? it's not like CEVO will not implement im/main/invite with a seasons time or something. [quote=downpour]tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors.[/quote]



tbh i was all for esea, initially didn't want anything to do with cevo nor did i think it would be successful, but as for right now it has alot of new blood signed up & ready, so if all they need is refined players playing in their league why not take the switch?



it's not like CEVO will not implement im/main/invite with a seasons time or something.

22 #22 supercell 16 Frags – + Ultimately I don't think anyone on this forum is going to manage to convince anyone who wants to play CEVO that ESEA is the better option. I also don't think anyone who believes CEVO is the future of the game will convince anyone that CEVO is the better optiom. Ultimately I don't think anyone on this forum is going to manage to convince anyone who wants to play CEVO that ESEA is the better option. I also don't think anyone who believes CEVO is the future of the game will convince anyone that CEVO is the better optiom.

23 #23 strongsuit 22 Frags – + There is almost no reason for a new team to play in ESEA as opposed to CEVO. ESEA has a higher price tag and about the same payout/same chance of a payout, ignoring the issues with the client (which HAVEN'T gone away ... there might not be malware anymore but open playoffs were fucked because of the client, RIP HiveMind). The reason I'd play ESEA instead of CEVO is because of the level of competition, but the level of competition that I care most about is that we get in scrims, which really aren't contingent on league. I guess a secondary reason is because of the repute gained by playing in ESEA, but really.... most open players go unknown. I won't lose any rep playing in CEVO instead. I'm aware that the ESEA admins have done some legwork regarding retention in their league, and I respect that. They seem to have reached out to the top teams in pretty much every division to ensure that most of those teams will still play ESEA next season. However, what you're describing is a problem in recruitment... which they haven't fixed. Open is bare because there is no longer any good reason to sign up for ESEA-O, and the admins HAVEN'T been reaching out to baby teams (which is fair... that's difficult and probably not worthwhile) to try to rectify that. Personally, my team and I are going CEVO and I haven't seen anything that will change my mind. There is almost no reason for a new team to play in ESEA as opposed to CEVO.



ESEA has a higher price tag and about the same payout/same chance of a payout, ignoring the issues with the client (which HAVEN'T gone away ... there might not be malware anymore but open playoffs were fucked because of the client, RIP HiveMind). The reason I'd play ESEA instead of CEVO is because of the level of competition, but the level of competition that I care most about is that we get in scrims, which really aren't contingent on league. I guess a secondary reason is because of the repute gained by playing in ESEA, but really.... most open players go unknown. I won't lose any rep playing in CEVO instead.



I'm aware that the ESEA admins have done some legwork regarding retention in their league, and I respect that. They seem to have reached out to the top teams in pretty much every division to ensure that most of those teams will still play ESEA next season. However, what you're describing is a problem in recruitment... which they haven't fixed. Open is bare because there is no longer any good reason to sign up for ESEA-O, and the admins HAVEN'T been reaching out to baby teams (which is fair... that's difficult and probably not worthwhile) to try to rectify that.



Personally, my team and I are going CEVO and I haven't seen anything that will change my mind.

24 #24 Snowy 17 Frags – + Hey man, I didn't kill ESEA. What are you preaching at me for? I'm just pointing out the futility of your campaign. Nobody's going to read this and be like "holy shit why don't we feed ESEA a few thousand dollars so they can keep supporting TF2?" What's dead is dead and it's not coming back (at least for a while). Hey man, I didn't kill ESEA. What are you preaching at me for?



I'm just pointing out the futility of your campaign. Nobody's going to read this and be like "holy shit why don't we feed ESEA a few thousand dollars so they can keep supporting TF2?" What's dead is dead and it's not coming back (at least for a while).

25 #25 blinK -10 Frags – + Think about the current facts on the situation and not pipe dreams or assumptions. The seasons are weeks away not months. To the newer players, for you this game is brand new, but it's not. It's 7 years old. It's a very fragile situation. You new guys will end up determining how much longer competitive TF2 lasts. 20 new guys come in and 30 old guys retire if we start messing with the leagues. Repeat every season. Bye bye competitive TF2. See you on Drippy's 2fort. Think about the current facts on the situation and not pipe dreams or assumptions. The seasons are weeks away not months.



To the newer players, for you this game is brand new, but it's not. It's 7 years old. It's a very fragile situation. You new guys will end up determining how much longer competitive TF2 lasts. 20 new guys come in and 30 old guys retire if we start messing with the leagues. Repeat every season. Bye bye competitive TF2. See you on Drippy's 2fort.

26 #26 KAMO -9 Frags – + Snowy Hey man, I didn't kill ESEA. What are you preaching at me for?



I'm just pointing out the futility of your campaign. Nobody's going to read this and be like "holy shit why don't we feed ESEA a few thousand dollars so they can keep supporting TF2?" What's dead is dead and it's not coming back (at least for a while). This. [quote=Snowy]Hey man, I didn't kill ESEA. What are you preaching at me for?



I'm just pointing out the futility of your campaign. Nobody's going to read this and be like "holy shit why don't we feed ESEA a few thousand dollars so they can keep supporting TF2?" What's dead is dead and it's not coming back (at least for a while).[/quote]

This.

27 #27 Rikachu 24 Frags – + We're so fucking stupid. We're so fucking stupid.

28 #28 Bolshevik 0 Frags – + as a person with multiple seasons of competitive experience in ugc, cevo, esea but who is no longer playing at least for the foreseeable future, i see you have two options. 1) pick esea, keep the community thriving. maybe they fuck up again, maybe they don't. personally, i was never really offended by esea. maybe they improve the quality after seeing how easily the community wanted to switch, maybe they don't. as far as i can see, if you want a LAN, and you want to see tf2 try and become the big esport that many have wanted for awhile, i think you have to go with esea. it is true that many top players strive for the lan to prove what they have been working for, and it is a big point in the decision. 2) you pick Cevo, hopefully it doesn't split the community, and hopefully everyone has fun. i think the spotlight on the game and the attention paid to it will drop within a year after choosing cevo, but if you are just looking to play the game and maybe have a more tight nit community then this is a solid option i'm probably totally wrong and my opinion is shit but this is how I see it as a person with multiple seasons of competitive experience in ugc, cevo, esea but who is no longer playing at least for the foreseeable future, i see you have two options.



1) pick esea, keep the community thriving. maybe they fuck up again, maybe they don't. personally, i was never really offended by esea. maybe they improve the quality after seeing how easily the community wanted to switch, maybe they don't. as far as i can see, if you want a LAN, and you want to see tf2 try and become the big esport that many have wanted for awhile, i think you have to go with esea. it is true that many top players strive for the lan to prove what they have been working for, and it is a big point in the decision.



2) you pick Cevo, hopefully it doesn't split the community, and hopefully everyone has fun. i think the spotlight on the game and the attention paid to it will drop within a year after choosing cevo, but if you are just looking to play the game and maybe have a more tight nit community then this is a solid option



i'm probably totally wrong and my opinion is shit but this is how I see it

29 #29 Eldritch 3 Frags – + kirby downpour tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors.

Which ultimately means CEVO will, unless something goes wrong, replace ESEA in time? in time, sure. If it dedicates sufficient resources towards an "endgame" like a LAN, probably sooner than later. At the end of the day, it's sad to see so few new registrants in open. After all, without a vibrant open scene, many current invite players/teams wouldn't have ever had that chance. I don't think blink is advocating abandoning CEVO. In his opening remarks, he noted that it was his intent to play in both leagues. I think he is trying to persuade people not to cast ESEA aside blindly. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Some people (me included) don't have time to play in multiple leagues, and if you choose CEVO over ESEA, then fine. But it might come back to bite us all in the ass in 2 seasons if CEVO folds again. Hopefully that doesn't happen, but it's worth thinking about. [quote=kirby][quote=downpour]tl;dr - CEVO more attractive to newer competitive players; ESEA more attractive to long-time players of competitive games and sponsors.[/quote]



Which ultimately means CEVO will, unless something goes wrong, replace ESEA in time?[/quote]



in time, sure. If it dedicates sufficient resources towards an "endgame" like a LAN, probably sooner than later. At the end of the day, it's sad to see so few new registrants in open. After all, without a vibrant open scene, many current invite players/teams wouldn't have ever had that chance.



I don't think blink is advocating abandoning CEVO. In his opening remarks, he noted that it was his intent to play in both leagues. I think he is trying to persuade people not to cast ESEA aside blindly. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Some people (me included) don't have time to play in multiple leagues, and if you choose CEVO over ESEA, then fine. But it might come back to bite us all in the ass in 2 seasons if CEVO folds again. Hopefully that doesn't happen, but it's worth thinking about.