michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Michael Cohen is headed to prison for lying on behalf of Donald Trump. Yesterday, he told Congress he’s done protecting the president. It’s Thursday, February 28. Maggie Haberman, how does this hearing actually begin on Wednesday morning?

maggie haberman

The hearing began in very dramatic fashion with Elijah Cummings, who chairs the committee, a Democrat, holding the gavel. Michael Cohen walking in through this crush of photographers and reporters, trailed by Lanny Davis, his attorney and sometimes spokesman, trailed by another of his attorneys, not by any member of his family, who I believe he was worried about attending this hearing. He sat down. His face was wan. His eyes were puffy. He looked exhausted, and defeated, and beaten down. And you could hear a pin drop as he sat down.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

The committee will come to order.

maggie haberman

So Cummings out of the gate —

archived recording (elijah cummings)

I now recognize myself for five minutes to give an opening statement.

maggie haberman

— addressed the issue of Michael Cohen’s credibility.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

He admitted to lying about his actions to protect the president. Some will certainly ask, if Mr. Cohen was lying then, why should we believe him now?

archived recording

Good question.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

This is a legitimate question.

maggie haberman

It was very clear that Republicans were going to go right at Cohen, accusing him of being a liar, somebody who has admitted to lying, including admitting to lying to Congress when he gave testimony before them in 2017. So Cummings was hoping to put that to bed at the outset.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

This is an important factor we need to weigh. But we must weigh it, and we must hear from him.

michael barbaro

And Maggie, I found it fascinating what Cummings did at the close of this opening statement. He delivers this message straight to Cohen.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

Martin Luther King, Mr. Cohen, said some words that I leave with you today before you testify. He said, faith is taking the first step, even when you can’t see the whole staircase. There comes a time when silence becomes betrayal. Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that truly matter. In the end, he says, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

maggie haberman

And with that quote, he’s trying to set up Michael Cohen’s testimony — why he’s being truthful, that what he said before is a lie, and what he is saying now is the truth. And this was important for him to set this out as a way forward as the hearing began.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

Raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you are about to give is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Let the record show that the witness answered in the affirmative. And thank you, and you may be seated.

maggie haberman

So then Michael Cohen begins his opening statement. And it was long.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I hope my appearance here today, my guilty plea and my work with law enforcement agencies are steps along a path of redemption that will restore faith in me and help this country understand our president better.

maggie haberman

And he began again by apologizing for lying to Congress.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I am here under oath to correct the record, to answer the committee’s questions truthfully and to offer the American people what I know about President Trump.

maggie haberman

And then he turned to Donald Trump.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I am ashamed that I chose to take part in concealing Mr. Trump’s illicit acts rather than listening to my own conscience. I am ashamed because I know what Mr. Trump is.

maggie haberman

And he depicted Donald Trump as a unsavory, unethical, immoral character.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Mr. Trump is a racist. The country has seen Mr. Trump court white supremacists and bigots. You have heard him call poorer countries [expletive]. In private, he is even worse. He once asked me if I can name a country run by a black person that wasn’t a [expletive]. This was when Barack Obama was president of the United States. And while we were once driving through a struggling neighborhood in Chicago, he commented that only black people could live that way. And he told me that black people would never vote for him because they were too stupid.

maggie haberman

Somebody who told him from the Oval Office, in an Oval Office meeting, that he would be sending him a reimbursement for hush money payments.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Trump is a con man. He asked me to pay off an adult film star with whom he had an affair and to lie about it to his wife, which I did. And lying to the first lady is one of my biggest regrets.

maggie haberman

He portrayed Donald Trump as a cheat.

archived recording (michael cohen)

And it should come as no surprise that one of my more common responsibilities was that Mr. Trump directed me to call business owners, many of whom are small businesses, that were owed money for their services, and told them that no payment or a reduced payment would be coming. When I told Mr. Trump of my success, he actually reveled in it.

maggie haberman

As a schemer, who would inflate his net worth or devalue it, depending on what was useful for him at various points.

archived recording (michael cohen)

It was my experience that Mr. Trump inflated his total assets when it served his purposes, such as trying to be listed amongst the wealthiest people in Forbes, and deflated his assets to reduce his real estate taxes.

maggie haberman

At one point, Michael Cohen told a very detailed story of Donald Trump’s relationship to the Vietnam War. Remember that Donald Trump has said that he had a deferment from the draft because he had, quote, unquote, bone spurs.

archived recording (michael cohen)

But when I asked for medical records, he gave me none, and said that there was no surgery. He told me not to answer the specific questions by reporters, but rather, offer simply the fact that he received a medical deferment. He finished the conversation with the following comment: “Do you think I’m stupid? I’m not going to Vietnam.”

maggie haberman

And at that moment, Michael Cohen looked directly into the camera.

archived recording (michael cohen)

And I find it ironic, Mr. President, that you are in Vietnam right now.

michael barbaro

Right.

maggie haberman

It was damning stuff.

archived recording (michael cohen)

A lot of people have asked me about whether Mr. Trump knew about the release of the hacked documents, the Democratic National Committee emails, ahead of time. And the answer is yes. In July of 2016, days before the Democratic Convention, I was in Mr. Trump’s office when his secretary announced that Roger Stone was on the phone. Mr. Trump put Mr. Stone on the speakerphone. Mr. Stone told Mr. Trump that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange, and that Mr. Assange told Mr. Stone that within a couple of days there would be a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary Clinton’s campaign. Mr. Trump responded by stating to the effect, wouldn’t that be great.

michael barbaro

And then he brings up, of course, the now-infamous Moscow project.

maggie haberman

Right.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I lied to Congress when Mr. Trump stopped negotiating the Moscow tower project in Russia. I stated that we stopped negotiating in January of 2016. That was false. Our negotiations continued for months later during the campaign.

maggie haberman

He says that there were, you know, a handful of these conversations that went on into 2016, when it was clear that Donald Trump was going to be the Republican nominee.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Mr. Trump did not directly tell me to lie to Congress. That’s not how he operates. In conversations we had during the campaign, at the same time I was actively negotiating in Russia for him, he would look me in the eye and tell me, “There’s no Russian business,” and then go on to lie to the American people by saying the same thing. In his way, he was telling me to lie. So to be clear, Mr. Trump knew of and directed the Trump Moscow negotiations throughout the campaign and lied about it.

michael barbaro

Cohen’s almost describing, in this moment, a code, where, if Trump is saying to him, there is no Russia project, it’s almost like saying, there’s no Russia project, right? You’re never going to say there’s a Russia project. It’s like he’s trying to explain a foreign language in which Donald Trump is communicating to him, you should probably lie about this, without having to say it.

maggie haberman

That’s exactly right. And he said that in his testimony, made very clear that this is how Donald Trump talks. He sort of knows where the line is, and he doesn’t speak overtly. It is what former federal prosecutors have described as mob speak, the style that mafia bosses speak in to avoid crossing a legal line. And while Michael Cohen did not explicitly say that part, he did say that Donald Trump spoke in a code and that Michael Cohen understood that code.

archived recording (michael cohen)

He doesn’t give you questions. He doesn’t give you orders. He speaks in a code. And I understand the code, because I’ve been around him for a decade.

michael barbaro

Maggie, did it come as a surprise to you to hear Michael Cohen saying any of this? You’ve known both of these men for years. And you’ve known them as a unit. What was it like to hear Cohen saying these things about Donald Trump?

maggie haberman

Even knowing that this was coming, it was mind-blowing hearing Michael Cohen saying this in public. No one who has worked for Trump in recent years has gone on the record to say things like this. And it was staggering. And it was so at odds with the portrait of fealty that Michael Cohen had presented with reporters, with everyone, toward Donald Trump over a decade.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

maggie haberman

And remember, Donald Trump creates an eagerness in people around him to get something of a head pat from him, to get an encouragement, to get an attaboy. Cohen got very skilled at trying for that attaboy.

michael barbaro

And seemed to be kind of addicted to it.

maggie haberman

And seemed to be addicted to it, seemed to revel in it, clearly reveled in his proximity.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Over the past year or so, I have done some real soul-searching. And I see now that my ambition and the intoxication of Trump power had much to do with the bad decisions, in part, that I made.

maggie haberman

He was involved in taking care of messes that Donald Trump wanted taken care of. He was willing to do those things. One of them was payoffs to women. And the notion that somebody who was so closely involved in that would be willing to discuss it publicly, not just behind closed doors with investigators, not just as prosecutors were bearing down on him, but freely, in public, in a hearing, under oath, was just breathtaking.

michael barbaro

There’s a moment where Cohen says to the members of the committee —

archived recording (michael cohen)

The last time I appeared before Congress, I came to protect Mr. Trump. Today —

michael barbaro

Today, I’m here to tell you the truth —

archived recording (michael cohen)

I am here to tell the truth about Mr. Trump.

michael barbaro

— about Mr. Trump. As if to say, the spell has been broken. I’m out of that world now. And I kind of wonder if that’s really possible, but also how it happened.

maggie haberman

Well, I think it is really possible, because I think their break has been so incredibly clean, given what has happened to Michael Cohen. Remember, when the F.B.I. raided his hotel and apartment and office in April of 2018, he was still standing by Trump. That clearly has changed. We saw Republicans argue that the reason that changed for Michael Cohen was because he was facing charges of his own. And the president has certainly suggested that. Cohen has been utterly stripped of everything that he valued, his business, his law license. He has been humiliated publicly. He has been abandoned by a lot of friends, and by the president, and by the president’s circle. And so I do think that it is certainly a real split. I think that people are going to have to assess, looking at his testimony, whether they think it’s a real conversion, but it’s definitely a real break.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I am not a perfect man. I have done things I am not proud of. And I will live with the consequences of my actions for the rest of my life. But today, I get to decide the example that I set for my children and how I attempt to change how history will remember me. I may not be able to change the past, but I can do right by the American people here today. And I thank you for your attention. And I’m happy to answer the committee’s questions.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

Thank you very much, Mr. Cohen. I now recognize myself.

michael barbaro

So then the questions begin from the committee members.

maggie haberman

Right.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

You said you brought some checks, is that right?

archived recording (michael cohen)

Yes, sir.

maggie haberman

And first we have Cummings asking Cohen to elaborate on the details of these reimbursement checks that he got, that he brought with him.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

So let me make sure I understand. Donald Trump wrote you a check out of his personal account while he was serving as president of the United States of America to reimburse you for hush money payments to Ms. Clifford, is that what you are telling the American people today?

archived recording (michael cohen)

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

maggie haberman

And it was among the more dramatic moments that we saw. Because Cummings is getting to the fact that the sitting president was part of this scheme that was, at minimum, sleazy and illicit, and at maximum could have some criminal exposure. And they were leaving nothing to doubt as to what Cohen was saying took place.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

Is there any doubt in your mind that President Trump knew exactly what he was paying for?

archived recording (michael cohen)

There is no doubt in my mind. And I truly believe there is no doubt in the minds of the people of the United States of America.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

With that I’ll yield to —

maggie haberman

Jim Jordan, another ally of the president, quoted something that Michael Cohen once said to a reporter from The Daily Beast.

archived recording (jim jordan)

“I will make sure that you and I meet one day while we’re in the courthouse and I will take you for every penny you still don’t have.”

maggie haberman

And this has now become a famous anecdote, where he threatened a reporter who was pursuing a story about an old court claim from the divorce filing between Ivana Trump and Donald Trump, where she had alleged marital rape. And Cohen said —

archived recording (jim jordan)

“And I will come after your Daily Beast and everybody else that you possibly know. So I’m warning you — ”

maggie haberman

“So I’m warning you, tread very f-ing lightly” — it wasn’t f-ing.

archived recording (jim jordan)

“Because what I’m going to do to you is going to be f-ing disgusting, you understand me?”

maggie haberman

And he was then asked by Jim Jordan, “Mr. Cohen, who said that?”

archived recording (jim jordan)

Mr. Cohen, who said that?

archived recording (michael cohen)

I did.

maggie haberman

And it’s an incident that I think he would say that he really was doing for Trump and not for himself. But it was a way to sully his character and create a portrait of thuggishness.

archived recording (jim jordan)

And did you say that, Mr. Cohen, was that statement that I just read that you admitted to saying, did you do that to protect Donald Trump?

archived recording (michael cohen)

I did it to protect Mr. Trump, Donald Trump, Jr., Ivanka Trump and Eric Trump.

michael barbaro

But I wonder, who does it look worse for, the person who did it, or the person on whose behalf it was done?

maggie haberman

Right. I understand that Jim Jordan is trying to muddy Michael Cohen with that. But I think for most people, they are going to look at that, and especially after the president takes to Twitter and suggests that people ought to be looking into Michael Cohen’s family, I think most people are still going to see that as looking worse for Trump, because Michael Cohen was doing this as Trump’s lawyer.

michael barbaro

So while Republicans are largely avoiding talking about the president at all costs in this hearing, in focusing on sullying Cohen’s character and reputation, they may be actually sullying President Trump’s.

maggie haberman

Correct. They were essentially trying to peel Cohen off from Trump. And what became clear as their efforts went on throughout the hearing is that that is impossible to do. When you have had somebody serve as a lawyer for Donald Trump, so identified with him publicly over 10 years, you can’t take a shot at Cohen and not end up having it ricochet onto Trump too.

archived recording

So we’ve established that you lie on your taxes, you lie to banks, and you have been convicted of lying to Congress. It seems to me that there’s not much that you won’t lie about when you stand to gain from it.

michael barbaro

And where do the questions go from here?

maggie haberman

So —

archived recording

Everything’s been made of your lies in the past. I’m concerned about your lies today.

maggie haberman

After that it became a, you know —

archived recording

But there’s no truth with you whatsoever.

maggie haberman

— one by one, down the line, Republicans suggesting that Michael Cohen was —

archived recording

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

maggie haberman

Really in it for the fame.

archived recording

Is your appearance here today motivated by your desire to remain in the spotlight for your personal benefit?

archived recording (michael cohen)

No, ma’am.

maggie haberman

Or he was really in it for the money. They asked him —

archived recording

Is there a book deal coming or anything like that?

archived recording (michael cohen)

I have no book deal right now.

maggie haberman

One after the other about prospective book deals or movie deals.

archived recording

Isn’t it true you tried to sell a book about your time with President Trump, entitled “Trump Revolution: From the Tower to the White House, Understanding Donald J. Trump“?

archived recording (michael cohen)

Yes, that happened —

maggie haberman

Or had he pitched a book of his own?

michael barbaro

And what did he say?

maggie haberman

He said yes.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I have been contacted by many, including for television, a movie. If you want to tell me who you would like to play you, I’m more than happy to write the name down.

michael barbaro

And what about the Democrats?

archived recording (elijah cummings)

Mr. Raskin.

archived recording (jamie raskin)

Mr. Cohen, thank you for your composure today. Our colleagues are not upset because you lied to Congress for the president. They’re upset because you’ve stopped lying to Congress for the president.

maggie haberman

The Democrats tried to keep it really mostly on Trump and the things that Michael Cohen did for Trump.

archived recording

And nothing at the Trump Organization was ever done unless it was run through President Donald Trump, correct?

archived recording (michael cohen)

That’s 100 percent certain.

archived recording

O.K.

maggie haberman

He described, and it was really interesting, he described everybody as being solely devoted to protecting the brand and reputation of one man, Donald Trump. He said that nothing happened at the company unless Donald Trump was aware of it or signed off on it. He argued that Trump was a demanding and exacting and punishing boss. He described the entire effort as being about maximizing the gold-plated version of Donald Trump that we have all become very familiar with.

archived recording

There’s a recurring refrain in your testimony that says, and yet, I continued to work for him. But at some point you changed. What was the breaking point at which you decided to start telling the truth?

archived recording (michael cohen)

There are several factors — Helsinki, Charlottesville.

maggie haberman

He went on this litany of moments that he said disgusted him. There were the president’s comments after Charlottesville, that it was, you know, various instance of discourteous behavior by the president, of untoward behavior toward citizens.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Watching the daily destruction of our civility to one another, putting up silly things like this.

archived recording

Oh, that’s silly.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Really unbecoming of Congress.

maggie haberman

He clearly got angry. And then he sort of turned it back on Republicans and said to them, essentially —

archived recording (michael cohen)

It’s that sort of behavior that I’m responsible for. I’m responsible for your silliness. Because I did the same thing that you’re doing now, for 10 years. I protected Mr. Trump for 10 years.

maggie haberman

You are what I was. You are all blindly following him. And there is a real risk to doing that, because you could end up like me someday.

archived recording (michael cohen)

And I can only warn people, the more people that follow Mr. Trump, as I did blindly, are going to suffer the same consequences that I’m suffering.

maggie haberman

It was a gripping and captivating moment.

michael barbaro

Right, it was a sort of surprising level of self-awareness, and I guess also self-loathing too.

maggie haberman

It was both. It was self-effacing. It was clearly uncomfortable. It was acknowledging that he is a deeply imperfect person who did imperfect things that he is not proud of, and he said a version of that earlier in the hearing. But it was really striking, because this is a comment that Republicans who opposed Donald Trump, and they’re not very many of them who are that vocal anymore, but that they have said repeatedly that the Republican Party has become a cult of personality, or just a cult. And that people just blindly follow along with what Donald Trump wants, whether it is wise or not, whether it is safe or not, and whether he is telling the truth or not. And that is what Cohen was getting at.

archived recording

What do you want your children to know?

archived recording (michael cohen)

That I’m sorry for everything. And I’m sorry for the pain that I’ve caused them. And um — I wish I could go back in time.

archived recording

Thank you, I yield back.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

The gentlelady’s time has expired.

michael barbaro

Maggie, I wonder if you feel like you understand what’s motivating Michael Cohen throughout this hours-long hearing, to say what he’s saying, to concede what he’s conceding, to kind of humble himself the way he did. He’s been convicted of a crime. He’s headed to prison. He has been disbarred. What exactly is animating him at this point?

maggie haberman

I think a number of things are animating him. But I think among them is that he doesn’t want to be the leper of this story forever. He said months ago that he does not want to be the villain in the Trump story. And I think that’s how he feels. I think that he does not want to be remembered as this footnote in history. I think he’s going to prison. And I think he doesn’t have a whole lot left to lose. And I think that he would like to try to make people remember other things about him and tell a more nuanced tale.

michael barbaro

And so, what did this hearing, in your mind, achieve? How will this hearing be remembered in this larger story?

maggie haberman

I think this hearing is either going to be, on its own, just a breathtaking historical moment, the likes of which I don’t know if we’ll ever see again. But it was pretty striking to see. Or it is going to be the initial phases of a much broader, deeper governmental investigation by House Democrats into the Trump presidency, not just his own personal activities, but the activities of his government. And allowing Michael Cohen to have a setting where he talks about these things, and where he can be questioned, and where he is a key starting witness could be the first step in paving the way toward an impeachment process, if that is where Democrats go. If that ends up leading to something bigger, then Democrats will feel as if this was a key foundation for it. But it’s too early to say, I think.

archived recording (michael cohen)

I have some closing remarks I would like to say myself. Is this an appropriate time?

archived recording (elijah cummings)

You can do it now.

archived recording (michael cohen)

Thank you.

michael barbaro

Maggie, how does this one of hearing finally come to an end?

maggie haberman

Seven and a half hours after Michael Cohen first entered this room, sitting pretty patiently through all of these questions, not losing his temper, he was given an opportunity to speak not just to the committee members, but to the president.

archived recording (michael cohen)

In closing, I’d like to say directly to the president, we honor our veterans, even in the rain. You tell the truth, even when it doesn’t aggrandize you.

maggie haberman

And he used that opportunity to send a message to his former boss, saying, you don’t need to be this person.

archived recording (michael cohen)

You take responsibility for your own dirty deeds. You don’t use your power of your bully pulpit to destroy the credibility of those who speak out against you. You don’t separate families from one another or demonize those looking to America for a better life. You don’t vilify people based on the God they pray to. And you don’t cuddle up to our adversaries at the expense of our allies.

maggie haberman

And what he was saying to the president, you and I both know who you are, and he was saying to the members of the committee, you should believe me when I say that I understand this man.

archived recording (michael cohen)

So to those who support the president and his rhetoric, as I once did, I pray the country doesn’t make the same mistakes that I have made or pay the heavy price that my family and I are paying. And I thank you very much for this additional time, Chairman.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

Thank you very much.

maggie haberman

And when Michael Cohen was done, Elijah Cummings closed with this note of grace toward Michael Cohen.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

So you wonder whether people believe you. I don’t know. I don’t know whether they believe you. But the fact is that you’ve come, you have your head down. And this has got to be one of the hardest things that you could do.

maggie haberman

That was the moment when Michael Cohen started crying. And he really hadn’t done that. He was clearly weeping.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

I know that you face a lot. I know that you are worried about your family. But this is a part of your destiny.

maggie haberman

And Cummings basically told Cohen, you are doing what you should be doing. You are heading toward the light in this moment.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

And hopefully, this portion of your destiny will lead to a better — a better Michael Cohen, a better Donald Trump, a better United States of America and a better world.

michael barbaro

Maggie, thank you very, very much. We appreciate it.

maggie haberman

Michael, thanks for having me.

archived recording (elijah cummings)

And we have got to get back to normal. With that, this meeting is adjourned. [MUSIC PLAYING]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, Pakistan said it had shot down two Indian fighter jets and captured a pilot from one of them in the latest escalation of hostilities between the two countries. The attack is heightening fears that the decades-old animosities between India and Pakistan could spiral into war. The latest episode began on February 14th, when jihadis operating out of Pakistan killed 40 Indian soldiers, prompting airstrikes from India, and now, a military response from Pakistan.

archived recording

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Bomb blast victims in [INAUDIBLE].

michael barbaro

In a speech on Wednesday, the prime minister of Pakistan urged restraint, citing the two countries’ arsenals of nuclear weapons, saying quote, “All big wars have been due to miscalculation. My question to India is that given the weapons we have, can we afford miscalculation?”

archived recording

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

michael barbaro