In a freewheeling interview with Rohini Singh & Ravish Tiwari, Bihar chief minister says that BJP tried to polarise elections in the state but didn’t succeed and the party is now preparing defence for its defeat.From our point of view the elections are going exactly how we anticipated. Contrary to the analysis done before the elections the BJP isn’t a force in Bihar. BJP has a certain way of working – high-profile publicity karte hain (they unleash high-profile publicity). They think by media management they will be able to create a situation beneficial for themselves. But that hasn’t been the case from day one. If people are surprised today looking at their situation that’s because they never viewed it objectively from day one. In Lok Sabha polls, the advantage they got was based on two factors. People were turned off by the UPA government. And there was no other alternative. A third front was a non-starter. So they were the only alternative. Bihar was also like the rest of the country. There was a sharp division in Bihar. The people who did not like the BJP were divided between the RJD-Congress alliance and the JD (U). So that worked in BJP’s favour.Polarisation, which they always depend on, worked for them at the last moment. Many of our traditional voters turned to them. This was a one-time affair. Par unhone usko all-time affair samajh liya (But they mistook it for an all-time affair).It is not working at all. They (BJP) have tried a lot. From the beginning, the information we got from the ground showed that they kept trying to carry out their agenda of polarisation. They called our government a pro-Muslim government, not a secular government. They started this before parliamentary election and continued with it. BJP does not have a big cadre. They have been with us for 17 years and we know how many workers they have, what their cadre strength is.Basically the RSS made it a prestige issue. Their (RSS’) theory is that till the time they don’t have control over Bihar, their ideology can’t find proper place in the country. For them Bihar is important. They made a lot of effort in communal polarisation.RSS ka kaam kaghaz par nahin hota hai (RSS does not leave documentary evidence of its work). They communicate directly. They tried to polarise and we have been countering it. From last September, I have been meeting people to understand what went wrong in parliamentary elections. I was hurt by what happened. Even if they were trying to polarise, why was it successful in Bihar? There hasn’t been a major communal incident in the state. So why did this happen? In November last year I set out in the state to put forward our view. In those meetings, we used to put out their (BJP’s) tape on black money, employment, MSP (minimum support price). People soon realised that their promises were all hollow. I appealed for communal harmony extensively.Our effort to maintain communal harmony started last year. We noticed a trend – when they couldn’t polarise the environment or carry out a big incident, they resorted to small ones.What I am saying is what I have witnessed. The number of incidents has increased. In this matter of public order I have been very alert. Any incident of communal violence was reported directly to my office. I had given instructions that I be informed immediately. I saw that after 2013 the number of incidents started increasing…Yes. I observed that after the alliance broke, the incidents increased. The police force and the administration have been on alert. We have ensured our response time is very quick. We worked very hard to set up the system. That is why the BJP has not had a free run here in terms of communal polarisation. That is why the issue of beef and cow slaughter did not find traction here. The BJP even said it will bring a strong law on cow slaughter. But there has never been a controversy regarding that in the last ten years at least. Cow slaughter has been effectively banned since 1955. This isn’t even an issue here. That is why they had to publically withdraw from it. But efforts are there at the lower level to propagate communal issues. So in every meeting I say Dussehra and Muharram at the same time – this communal peace should be maintained. Whether I say anything else or not I definitely say this. Bhadkaane vaali baat isliye zyaada nahin chalti hai (That’s why the BJP’s provocative talk isn’t working). The mindset here is not like that.Dikhai to pad raha hai (That is evident). People in the (central) government have a duty. And if they don’t fulfil it these things will happen. Aap kuchh bolenge nahin, check nahin karenge (The PM won’t say anything, or do anything to check these things). On the other hand, your people make statements that add fuel to fire.Look at Dadri. Strict action should be taken. No one should be allowed to take the law into their hands. Even a murderer can’t be lynched. You have to be more sensitive on an incident like Dadri. If statements are made that if someone does something then an incident like Dadri can’t be prevented, then you are promoting it. Ya koi yeh keh de ki shaque ke aadhaar par nahin karna chahiye to agar confirm ho jaaye to maar dena chahiye (Or if someone says that lynching shouldn’t be done on the basis of mere suspicion, does it mean confirmation should lead to murder)?Look at the language being used. Even if there has been an incident of cow slaughter let the law of the land take its course. We have provisions in the law to handle these situations. Enforce the law. Or will you encourage people to take the law into their hands and talk like this and vitiate the atmosphere? An incident like Dadri has national and international impact. The PM likes to go abroad. Will such an incident create a good image of the country? Diplomatic relationships are not just between two governments but between two countries. Such incidents make it harder for India.You are the ruling party. Everyone knows the BJP is the political arm of the RSS. When you have been elected to run the country then govern. Sarkar bana lena saral hai, desh chalana mushkil (It is easy to form the government, but difficult to govern the country). You need the right approach and attitude to run the country. Atalji had advised (Modi) to follow ‘raj dharma’ (duty of a ruler). No matter what your ideological background is, the moment you swear to uphold the constitution, your role should be guided by it.I saw after the 2002 Gujarat riots Atalji used to be very sad. I spent a lot of time with him as the railway minister and felt that he was deeply hurt by the incident. I don’t know Modi too well. We haven’t had the opportunity to work closely. I only go by what BJP people say about him. When George Fernandes returned from Gujarat and told us about it (the riots), I felt the government should have done its job. The difference is stark.See, he never spoke earlier. An incident like this makes people very worried. So who should speak to ease people’s anxiety on an incident like Dadri? The leader of the country, the PM. He should have said this is an isolated incident and the law will take its course. That would have instilled confidence in people. They would have seen that this was just one incident and strict action will be taken.He first latched onto the President’s statement, that we should heed the President’s advice. What was the point of speaking on it indirectly? And then he said it wasn’t the fault of the central government. Well, who said it was the fault of the central government?I don’t think there is anyone in the BJP who can give the advice of following raj dharma like Vajpayeeji did. What he (Modi) should have said to calm the situation he never did. He spoke after many days. He started to give explanations. So there was no impact of his words. It’s not enough to just say it’s a state issue. The state is part of the country. He comes to Patna and gives a speech on one murder of a young IPS officer who was killed as a criminal. He interpreted it as police officers not being safe here. He spoke on it. But under his nose in Delhi, what is happening with little girls, he isn’t being able to say anything or do anything. Crime incidents are maximum in Delhi – as per figures of the National Crime Bureau for 2014. Delhi police is directly under his government. On an issue as sensitive as the one in Dadri he gives feeble explanations…But his people made ridiculous statements. Why didn’t he stop them? Who is saying the Centre is responsible for law and order? But why should he see it merely as a law and order problem? Is it a small thing that the atmosphere of distrust is being created in society? Our country is so diverse and you have to be sensitive to it. Who is telling him to start policing everywhere? BJP says things assuming others don’t understand. SP nahin hain to yahan Patna main kaahe ban rahe thhe IG (If he’s not the SP why did he assume the role of the IG here in Patna). (Smiles)That was right after the parliamentary elections. We decided that the votes that got divided we must consolidate. Talks started then. We fought the by-elections together.Vo to bhram create kar rahe hain (the BJP is spreading imaginary fears). They have been with me for 17 years and they know me. They won’t speak the truth. They know I won’t compromise on law and order. Today whatever they are saying about Laluji and his supporters, let’s not forget that some illustrious people who had given Laluji a bad name are now helping the BJP. Modiji said he will decriminalise politics. But see who all the BJP has given tickets to. What did RK Singh say about their ticket distribution (Singh alleged BJP was selling tickets to criminals)? Let me reiterate that since I assumed chief minister’s post in February, Laluji has never interfered in law and order. They can keep trying to create suspicion in the minds of people but it is not working. It is becoming counterproductive. On the one hand they speak badly about Laluji’s support base and on the other hand who were they wooing? The same Yadav support base. It’s a very wrong thing to accuse a community of believing in lawlessness.This alliance has happened because people had a desire that it should happen. People in and out of Bihar wanted this alliance. BJP ke log apni hi duniya main jee rahe hain. Apne make-believe world mein. Isliye unko niraasha hi niraasha hoti rehta hai ((BJP people live in their own make-believe world. That’s why they keep getting frustrated again and again) whether it is in the first phase or second. The third phase will also be what the first two were (smiles). So will the fourth (laughs) and the fifth. Why do they consider themselves weak in the fifth phase? They are used to living in their own world.Laluji’s contribution to Bihar’s society is undeniable. During his term the disadvantaged groups of Bihar felt they could run a government. Those who were not allowed to speak could make themselves heard.Let me say this very clearly. When there was an anti-Congress movement in the country it was at the time when the Congress was everywhere in the country, at the Centre and in the states. Today the situation is such that there is no Congress party – neither at the Centre nor in the states. They only have a few states left. The BJP is at the Centre and in some states and their game plan is to take control of all states. Varna kya kaaran hai ki governance ko chhod kar poori party aur poori sarkar ek election ke baad doosre election main lag jaati hai (Why else would the entire party and the government focus on election after election instead of governance)?They have only got one shock in Delhi so far. In Maharashtra they didn’t get majority, in Jharkhand too. They are totally focused on replacing the Congress. What was the reason behind non-Congress politics? It was to remove it from everywhere. The BJP wants to become the Congress with a different ideology. The background of the Congress is that of freedom movement. The BJP’s values are totally different from the values of the freedom movement of democracy, justice, equality.Naturally. Anti-Congressism is dead.Naturally. Congress is nowhere now – neither at the Centre nor in the states. And Congress is still a political force. Today, even in its worst situation, it got 11 crore votes. How can you ignore it? If there has to be a non-BJP formation, then how can you ignore the Congress?Supporting role ya (or) leading role, yeh to baad ki baat hai (this can be decided later). This is micro detailing and depends on the circumstances. If people don’t think in this direction of a non-BJP formulation then there will be no check on the BJP. Mujhe vyaktigat kisi se zara bhi chidh nahin hai (I don’t have personal aversion to anyone). We are on good terms with people in the BJP also. I don’t have personal enmity with anyone. My problem is ideological. Aaj to yeh sthiti hai ki Bihar to jab rahega jab desh rahega (things have come to a pass that Bihar can survive only if the nation survives). Their (BJP’s) entire thought process is different. What I have inculcated since childhood I can’t change that now. BJP is on a different agenda and we can’t be part of this agenda.Forget about helping us or not helping us. That is not important. What is important is that Mohan Bhagwat has been honest in this matter. He has expressed the RSS ideology. But these people (BJP) are not honest. They are playing with the psychology of the people. They think people’s thoughts are caste oriented. That is why they will talk about an OBC PM or talk about how many of their CMs are from OBCs. But BJP’s thought process cannot be different from that of the RSS. What identity will they have if they separate from the RSS?Economic backwardness ke liye yeh cheez hai hi nahin (Reservation is not meant to address the issue of economic backwardness). For economic backwardness there are several schemes that can be run. No one will have a problem with that. The poor belong to all castes. But reservation is not to fight poverty. It is to give a feeling of equal importance. For centuries you have been on the margins and reservation is to tell you that you are no longer on the fringes but in mainstream society.This isn’t on communal lines. That will be a distortion. This is on the basis on social and educational factors, not economic or communal. But I believe that in the Muslim community there are people who are equivalent to Hindu Dalits and should be clubbed with Scheduled Castes.Naturally. Where is the opportunity? Gradually you have limited the public sector. You are busy disinvesting the public sector. If it is not extended to the private sector then how will they (the marginalised) come to the mainstream?(Laughs) There has been no talk on any of this. We have not faced any problems in seat distribution, seat adjustment or candidate selection. It’s premature to talk on this till the time the results come and people give us the mandate. To discuss this beforehand, it will be like BJP type discussion (laughs). Like Amit Shah said that at 12 o’ clock they will get two-thirds majority and at 2 pm I will be sitting in the CM’s car for the last time to give my resignation. That is BJP’s style. Today if I discuss government formation I will be following in their footsteps. If the public gives us the mandate, let me say we have announced a common programme. So there is clarity on governance issues. Not only is there clarity on the issue of the leader but also on policy and governance.I have very good relations with Mulayam Singh Yadav. When everything had gone wrong I had spoken to him and sorted things out in the beginning. An announcement was made. But one thing I will say is that the reason they (Yadav’s Samajwadi Party) are citing, that we were going along with the Congress, is completely untrue. This was not the reason. Kaaran banaya gaya thha (this was a manufactured reason). From day one everyone knew that in Bihar Congress would be part of the alliance. In the closed-door discussions it was mentioned several times. If that was an issue then why did Shivpal Yadav come for the rally after the alliance was already announced with the Congress?Yes. Both Laluji and I spoke to him. Laluji was more worried since he also has a personal relationship. At that time I was morally and politically with Laluji and told him whatever he thinks best we would do. We were still discussing with his people on how many more seats we could give to the SP when he made the announcement. So there were non-political reasons for why they did what they did.There was again no issue. We were ready to give them three seats.I don’t pay much attention to it. Everyone has a right to contest an election. Par Bihar mein logon ka mann bana hua hai (But voters in Bihar have made up their minds). Aur yeh sabko pata hai ki kahan kahan vote kaatne ke liye kidhar se remote chal raha hai (And everyone knows who is being remote-controlled from where to cut whose votes). (Laughs). In all other things we may be below national average but in political sense Biharis are above national average.There will be traction at the national level. People will think about it. There is great interest in the whole country in what happens in Bihar elections. People are waiting for the victory of the grand alliance. Bahut bada vatavaran banega (A strong political atmosphere will be created).People want a healthy democracy, a strong opposition.Arvind Kejriwal is not a traditional politician. It is a little premature to discuss whether he will be part of this grand alliance. In Delhi the government has come in with a massive mandate. And every day the central government is not letting it work. Obstruct kar rahe hain (The Centre is obstructing Delhi government). People are noticing this at the national level since Delhi is the capital.There is no issue of my trust or distrust. We have good equations.All I can say is that within the BJP, ek democracy shayad phir se zinda hone lage (democracy may start stirring to life).It’s the responsibility of the ruling party to make Parliament function. That’s why I told you earlier that forming a government is easy, running the government isn’t. Even the Congress used to say opposition parties were obstructing Parliament. But ultimately policy paralysis set in. So how can you assume that the tactics you used against others won’t be used against you? Aur tab jab aapne party ko bhi apni mutthi main kar liya hai (And that too when you control the party as well).Iska matlab hai ki haar maan li hai aur pehle se hi defence tayyar kar liya hai (This means they have accepted defeat and already prepared their defence)! (Laughs). They have conceded defeat.This is rubbish. They say they developed Gujarat. Who was in power at the Centre? Madhya Pradesh, they say, is no longer among BIMARU states. Who was at the Centre at the time? Even in Bihar development happened in the last ten years when the government in Delhi was not ours. Iska koi matlab hi nahin hai (This is meaningless). You speak about cooperative federalism but clearly don’t believe in it. The Centre has to respect the federal structure. It needs support from states and vice versa. Delhi is an example.Certainly. Of course. There have been governments in Delhi before this as well. The CM had the same powers. Today, through the LG, you are obstructing them. This will boomerang on the BJP. No government at the Centre can succeed if you don’t give states their due and act obstructionist.We have worked. People feel that. See the education, power, infrastructure sectors. Go to any district in Bihar, you will see women and girls roaming freely. There is no fear. A girl riding a cycle to school in Bihar is a powerful message. The society in Bihar did not permit this earlier. I say this in every meeting and not just election meetings. They keep talking about the Gujarat model of development. Gujarat has the maximum cases of anaemic women. We don’t want that sort of development. Their model is hollow and just confined to a limited sector.Nervous ho gaye hain Gujarat mein (The BJP is displaying nervousness in Gujarat). In Gujarat, the BJP grew with its anti-reservation stance. Patels were against it and supported the BJP. Now their hardcore base is Patidar. This is itself a big example. The biggest opponents of reservation are now demanding it. This means there has been one-sided growth of the Gujarat economy. This means Gujarat model has miserably failed – the Patel agitation is testimony to that. That’s why they are trying to scare the agitators.We have always been supporters of GST from the beginning. If something new has been introduced in the bill or the bill has been tinkered with then I am not aware. We will look at it after the elections. But primarily and in principle we are in favour of GST even when Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh were against it. Par haan, BJP ne apni sthiti aisi kar li hai ki ab kehna mushkil hai ki unko kitna support milega (But, yes, the BJP has made its situation such that it is difficult to say how much support it will get).Suit-boot ki sarkar – aisi baat bole ki sab logon ne usko pakad liya (His description of the Modi government as “suit-boot ki sarkar” was such that it caught public imagination). Modiji made very personal attacks on Rahul Gandhi during his 2014 campaign. He shouldn’t have made it that personal. Naam to lete nahin thhe, shuru hi karte the shehzade keh kar (he didn’t use to take names, but start by referring to him as prince). Rahul Gandhi is the top leader in the Congress.Jo mera interaction raha hai humko to koi immaturity nahin dikhai di (I haven’t seen any immaturity in him). We have interacted only recently and I did not find him lacking clarity on issues.