TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 12:33:05 #1 "How does Axiom even make money? They don't host their own tournaments or promote themselves in any way, and I hardly ever see their players in outside tournaments. Basically, aside from the rare news that comes out about them on reddit, I don't even know they exist? And they've been going on for how long?

And this is a serious question, because I'm geniunely interested in knowing what the business is behind teams like Axiom and ROOT, who are hardly ever promoted.

Edit: Why am I being downvoted for asking an honest question?"



Here is a fellow on /r/starcraft asking the hard-hitting questions, assuming of course this guy lived in the 5th dimension. It's so weird to see people posting this stuff on Reddit when everything Axiom announces and every video Axiom makes always ends up on the Reddit frontpage. So, let's explain for the fellows benefit.



How does Axiom make money if we dont host our own tournments or promote ourselves? Well, mostly by hosting our own tournaments and promoting ourselves. For one we have one of the most popular Youtube channels in SC2 committed to Axiom content. We're putting out videos from the teamhouse on a weekly basis. Every month we have the "Progamers vs" video where our guys take on a classic RTS. That does really well, usually a minimum of 50,000 people watch that. Then of course we have our little "IRL" videos in which our players get on camera, those are short and fairly regular. Our most recent one was about Ramen. Then we have cross promotional videos such as my Archon streams with CranK, they did pretty well too, first one got over 50,000 people watching. By comparison, the GSL Youtube channel gets gets about 5,000 views per match at most, so we're doing ok on Youtube.



"They don't host their own tournaments!" - well one, neither does anyone else. This isnt 2010, we dont have things like the EG Masters Cup anymore, we dont even have Acer Teamstory cup which is probably the most recent "team-run" tournament I can think of. What we do have of course are well, our tournaments, such as our inhouse LOTV mod tournament that we broadcast 3 months ago. Grand Final had over 50,000 people watching on Youtube plus many more on stream. Speaking of stream, did I mention we have one of the most popular SC2 streamers in the form of CranK who streams every day?



But wait, there's more! In order to further promote our players, we make sure to send at least one to pretty much every major international tournament in some way. Most recently, we had Ryung finish RO4 in Copenhagan Games, not a bad result for a player who is supposedly slumping aye? Naturally our players are also present in online events, playing 2 SHOUTcraft Clan Wars a month in front of a 50,000 strong audience, taking on all comers in the SC2Improve Teamleague (we're 7-1 in that btw, top of our division) and sending our players to compete in things like Olimoleague on a weekly basis. We're even a staple in 2v2 contests and recently won one. Look, I'll be the first to admit that we're not winning tournaments. That's my biggest concern right now, but surviving as a team isn't about winning tournaments. IM won loads of tournaments, that didn't save them. SlayerS won tons of tournaments, they disbanded. Azubu, STX Soul, Woongjin Stars, FXOpen, TSL, the list goes on and on. Surviving as a team isn't about winning tournaments, it's about staying relevant in the minds of viewers and the eyes of sponsors, which we do by producing content and making sure our guys are accessible and engage in fan outreach. It's a business like any other and surviving as a team for this long takes more than just winning a tournament here and there.



No though, you're right. Outside of a very successful Youtube channel, very successful live stream, ties to an even bigger successful Youtube channel, multiple team run tournaments and more combined social media presence than any other SC2 team that exists... oh and original video series and continued international tournament presence, Axiom doesn't even exist.



In reality, Axiom promotes itself better than almost any team in SC2, Korean or otherwise. Amongst the Koreans its no contest. Most of the KeSPA teams dont even have Youtube channels or regular streamers, they make very little effort to connect with foreign fans at all. Even when foreign teams do it they often do it to a much smaller audience than Axiom does, they dont have the established media connections. Really if there were two teams that did a better job of promoting their players and themselves, they would be EG and Liquid, but EG has shifted focus away from SC2, whereas Liquid of course has the premier SC2 website and is unlikely to ever be dislodged in terms of promotion. Outside of that, Axiom rules the roost when it comes to online media presence in SC2. That's why we get sponsors, that's why we have more sponsors than almost every Korean team and heck half the foreign teams too, we have a big media presence and a large fanbase. That's why we have sponsors whereas some other Korean teams dont. That's why we have yet more sponsors in the pipeline.



You were probably downvoted for being silly.



Here is a fellow on /r/starcraft asking the hard-hitting questions, assuming of course this guy lived in the 5th dimension. It's so weird to see people posting this stuff on Reddit when everything Axiom announces and every video Axiom makes always ends up on the Reddit frontpage. So, let's explain for the fellows benefit.How does Axiom make money if we dont host our own tournments or promote ourselves? Well, mostly by hosting our own tournaments and promoting ourselves. For one we have one of the most popular Youtube channels in SC2 committed to Axiom content. We're putting out videos from the teamhouse on a weekly basis. Every month we have the "Progamers vs" video where our guys take on a classic RTS. That does really well, usually a minimum of 50,000 people watch that. Then of course we have our little "IRL" videos in which our players get on camera, those are short and fairly regular. Our most recent one was about Ramen. Then we have cross promotional videos such as my Archon streams with CranK, they did pretty well too, first one got over 50,000 people watching. By comparison, the GSL Youtube channel gets gets about 5,000 views per match at most, so we're doing ok on Youtube."They don't host their own tournaments!" - well one, neither does anyone else. This isnt 2010, we dont have things like the EG Masters Cup anymore, we dont even have Acer Teamstory cup which is probably the most recent "team-run" tournament I can think of. What we do have of course are well, our tournaments, such as our inhouse LOTV mod tournament that we broadcast 3 months ago. Grand Final had over 50,000 people watching on Youtube plus many more on stream. Speaking of stream, did I mention we have one of the most popular SC2 streamers in the form of CranK who streams every day?But wait, there's more! In order to further promote our players, we make sure to send at least one to pretty much every major international tournament in some way. Most recently, we had Ryung finish RO4 in Copenhagan Games, not a bad result for a player who is supposedly slumping aye? Naturally our players are also present in online events, playing 2 SHOUTcraft Clan Wars a month in front of a 50,000 strong audience, taking on all comers in the SC2Improve Teamleague (we're 7-1 in that btw, top of our division) and sending our players to compete in things like Olimoleague on a weekly basis. We're even a staple in 2v2 contests and recently won one. Look, I'll be the first to admit that we're not winning tournaments. That's my biggest concern right now, but surviving as a team isn't about winning tournaments. IM won loads of tournaments, that didn't save them. SlayerS won tons of tournaments, they disbanded. Azubu, STX Soul, Woongjin Stars, FXOpen, TSL, the list goes on and on. Surviving as a team isn't about winning tournaments, it's about staying relevant in the minds of viewers and the eyes of sponsors, which we do by producing content and making sure our guys are accessible and engage in fan outreach. It's a business like any other and surviving as a team for this long takes more than just winning a tournament here and there.No though, you're right. Outside of a very successful Youtube channel, very successful live stream, ties to an even bigger successful Youtube channel, multiple team run tournaments and more combined social media presence than any other SC2 team that exists... oh and original video series and continued international tournament presence, Axiom doesn't even exist.In reality, Axiom promotes itself better than almost any team in SC2, Korean or otherwise. Amongst the Koreans its no contest. Most of the KeSPA teams dont even have Youtube channels or regular streamers, they make very little effort to connect with foreign fans at all. Even when foreign teams do it they often do it to a much smaller audience than Axiom does, they dont have the established media connections. Really if there were two teams that did a better job of promoting their players and themselves, they would be EG and Liquid, but EG has shifted focus away from SC2, whereas Liquid of course has the premier SC2 website and is unlikely to ever be dislodged in terms of promotion. Outside of that, Axiom rules the roost when it comes to online media presence in SC2. That's why we get sponsors, that's why we have more sponsors than almost every Korean team and heck half the foreign teams too, we have a big media presence and a large fanbase. That's why we have sponsors whereas some other Korean teams dont. That's why we have yet more sponsors in the pipeline.You were probably downvoted for being silly. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

Bobbias Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Canada 1373 Posts #2 Reading 50k views as being good on Youtube makes me sad. It's a goddamn shame 50k is good for youtube, since there are quite a few youtubers where 50k would be underwhelming. Just puts things into perspective really.

LoneYoShi Profile Blog Joined June 2014 France 1344 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 10:58:22 #3 Hello TB,



I'm not trying to spark an argument or w/e, but as a casual follower of sc2 (meaning I only follow the biggest tournaments really, and mostly the final phase), I did tend to agree with the reddit guy in thinking you are not the most visible of teams to the "casual follower" (meaning someone who tunes in for ro16+ of biggest tournaments only, does not really do much research into teams or check youtube).



Apparently I (and him) both missed a lot of stuff you guys do, so really thanks for clearing it up and summing everything up in this post ! I'll have to check your YT channel to watch some of the videos you described, seems like really cool stuff that I wasn't even aware of !



So yeah, keep doing what you do, apparently you're doing well ! :-)



Edit: clarifications.

Motlu Profile Joined August 2014 Australia 883 Posts #4 This blog was so very "TotalBiscuit".



Interesting though that I wasn't particularly aware of the Progamer vs videos, definitely going to check them out. It would be great if more teams could market themselves in a similar manner. -

TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts #5 On April 24 2015 19:47 Bobbias wrote:

Reading 50k views as being good on Youtube makes me sad. It's a goddamn shame 50k is good for youtube, since there are quite a few youtubers where 50k would be underwhelming. Just puts things into perspective really.



For "Youtubers" it's not that high. For SC2, the only channel getting more views on SC2 than that is ESL. With Husky, HD and Day9 gone, SC2 on Youtube outside of tournament vods is dead. For "Youtubers" it's not that high. For SC2, the only channel getting more views on SC2 than that is ESL. With Husky, HD and Day9 gone, SC2 on Youtube outside of tournament vods is dead. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

marvellosity Profile Joined January 2011 United Kingdom 33843 Posts #6 Pretty aggressive response for a question that wasn't phrased aggressively. [15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie

Creager Profile Joined February 2011 Germany 1570 Posts #7 1 star for mr. condescending behaviour. Seriously, TB, stop being an immature douché, yes, you do a FANTASTIC job and are a real professional, you single-handedly saved SC2, but maybe your players should start delivering results, otherwise you'll forever be the "ex-Slayers" retirement home. ... einmal mit Profis spielen!

Bobbias Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Canada 1373 Posts #8 Yeah, I was referring to the whole Youtube ecosystem. I've always been sad that SC2 has so little presence on youtube, considering HD and Husky's videos in the beta were the first look I got at SC2. I still fondly remember watching those beta matches where nobody understood anything.

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:08:46 #9 I think if you get those kinds of questions, it's more that the content is not reaching certain people and could be an area to look into.



Seems a bit counter-intuitive to remove your account from Reddit, but then go to Team Liquid to answer angrily at Reddit comments; even when they're already downvoted and disapproved by the majority, saving you the effort and need to answer them. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

LoneYoShi Profile Blog Joined June 2014 France 1344 Posts #10 On April 24 2015 20:06 Torte de Lini wrote:

I think if you get those kinds of questions, it's more that the content is not reaching certain people and could be an area to look into.



It's what I tried to phrase, but you said it way better ! It's what I tried to phrase, but you said it way better !

boxerfred Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Germany 8357 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:12:40 #11 Wow. No way such a blog has earned being spotlighted. Absolutely no way. You're being a huge rude douche towards a guy who asked some question without implying anything really bad towards Axiom.

Bobbias Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Canada 1373 Posts #12 On April 24 2015 20:08 boxerfred wrote:

Wow. No way such a blog has earned being spotlighted. Absolutely no way.



It's featured, not spotlighted. Also, featured blogs are not individually selected. People who have a blog following, or important community members will have any blog they write featured. Every blog TB writes will show up in the featured section. It's featured, not spotlighted. Also, featured blogs are not individually selected. People who have a blog following, or important community members will have any blog they write featured. Every blog TB writes will show up in the featured section.

TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts #13 On April 24 2015 20:04 Creager wrote:

1 star for mr. condescending behaviour. Seriously, TB, stop being an immature douché, yes, you do a FANTASTIC job and are a real professional, you single-handedly saved SC2, but maybe your players should start delivering results, otherwise you'll forever be the "ex-Slayers" retirement home.



Or you could go fuck yourself.



Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away. Or you could go fuck yourself.Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

boxerfred Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Germany 8357 Posts #14 On April 24 2015 20:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 20:04 Creager wrote:

1 star for mr. condescending behaviour. Seriously, TB, stop being an immature douché, yes, you do a FANTASTIC job and are a real professional, you single-handedly saved SC2, but maybe your players should start delivering results, otherwise you'll forever be the "ex-Slayers" retirement home.



Or you could go fuck yourself.



Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away. Or you could go fuck yourself.Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away.

Mods better take action now. It's enough. Barely anybody of importance? Well leave that site then and totally don't care for players, casters and personalities posting here. Ignore the beautiful work of TL strategy. Ignore quality recaps and previews. Just gtfo then. Mods better take action now. It's enough. Barely anybody of importance? Well leave that site then and totally don't care for players, casters and personalities posting here. Ignore the beautiful work of TL strategy. Ignore quality recaps and previews. Just gtfo then.

TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts #15 On April 24 2015 20:08 boxerfred wrote:

Wow. No way such a blog has earned being spotlighted. Absolutely no way. You're being a huge rude douche towards a guy who asked some question without implying anything really bad towards Axiom.



Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are. Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:15:56 #16 On April 24 2015 20:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 20:04 Creager wrote:

1 star for mr. condescending behaviour. Seriously, TB, stop being an immature douché, yes, you do a FANTASTIC job and are a real professional, you single-handedly saved SC2, but maybe your players should start delivering results, otherwise you'll forever be the "ex-Slayers" retirement home.



Or you could go fuck yourself.



Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away. Or you could go fuck yourself.Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away.



You can ban people from your blogs here:



http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/myblog.php



Scroll down.

You can ban people from your blogs here:Scroll down. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:17:17 #17 On April 24 2015 20:14 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 20:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:

On April 24 2015 20:04 Creager wrote:

1 star for mr. condescending behaviour. Seriously, TB, stop being an immature douché, yes, you do a FANTASTIC job and are a real professional, you single-handedly saved SC2, but maybe your players should start delivering results, otherwise you'll forever be the "ex-Slayers" retirement home.



Or you could go fuck yourself.



Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away. Or you could go fuck yourself.Wonder why barely anybody of importance posts here anymore? Because everytime they take the time to share the facts of the industry they get shit on by mouthbreathers from the peanut gallery. Go away.

Mods better take action now. It's enough. Barely anybody of importance? Well leave that site then and totally don't care for players, casters and personalities posting here. Ignore the beautiful work of TL strategy. Ignore quality recaps and previews. Just gtfo then. Mods better take action now. It's enough. Barely anybody of importance? Well leave that site then and totally don't care for players, casters and personalities posting here. Ignore the beautiful work of TL strategy. Ignore quality recaps and previews. Just gtfo then.



Or we could just ban you from the blog so there's at least one place on TL where you can't follow me around being a gigantic douchebag.



Newsflash. Most of the players, casters and personalities left a long time ago and I imagine part of the reason is that being honest on this forum and not pretending that community members somehow know everything is a fucking sin that'll get you crucified.



Maybe if people resisted the urge to run their mouth and instead took some time to listen when people tell you things, they would know more. Or we could just ban you from the blog so there's at least one place on TL where you can't follow me around being a gigantic douchebag.Newsflash. Most of the players, casters and personalities left a long time ago and I imagine part of the reason is that being honest on this forum and not pretending that community members somehow know everything is a fucking sin that'll get you crucified.Maybe if people resisted the urge to run their mouth and instead took some time to listen when people tell you things, they would know more. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

marvellosity Profile Joined January 2011 United Kingdom 33843 Posts #18 On April 24 2015 20:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 20:08 boxerfred wrote:

Wow. No way such a blog has earned being spotlighted. Absolutely no way. You're being a huge rude douche towards a guy who asked some question without implying anything really bad towards Axiom.



Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are. Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are.

lol. are you 9 or something? lol. are you 9 or something? [15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie

TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:19:27 #19 On April 24 2015 20:16 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 20:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:

On April 24 2015 20:08 boxerfred wrote:

Wow. No way such a blog has earned being spotlighted. Absolutely no way. You're being a huge rude douche towards a guy who asked some question without implying anything really bad towards Axiom.



Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are. Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are.

lol. are you 9 or something? lol. are you 9 or something?



Says the guy coming into a personal blog to casterbash after 28,000 posts on this forum.



No really I have to wonder how oversensitive you would have to be to take offense to this blog. Holy shit, it is not even possible to post on TL anymore without someone bursting into tears over perceived slight.







http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/myblog.php



Scroll down. You can ban people from your blogs here:Scroll down.



Oh we already have. Shame it also doesn't delete their shitty replies too. Says the guy coming into a personal blog to casterbash after 28,000 posts on this forum.No really I have to wonder how oversensitive you would have to be to take offense to this blog. Holy shit, it is not even possible to post on TL anymore without someone bursting into tears over perceived slight.Oh we already have. Shame it also doesn't delete their shitty replies too. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

Bobbias Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Canada 1373 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 11:20:46 #20 On April 24 2015 20:16 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 20:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:

On April 24 2015 20:08 boxerfred wrote:

Wow. No way such a blog has earned being spotlighted. Absolutely no way. You're being a huge rude douche towards a guy who asked some question without implying anything really bad towards Axiom.



Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are. Waaah waaaaaahhhhh, look at how sensitive we are.

lol. are you 9 or something? lol. are you 9 or something?



It's TB. He's salty because he has to deal with people who don't know jack speaking out their ass. I don't blame him for calling people out on it. Speak civilly and there's no problem. Be a dick and be prepared to be called out on it.



Seriously, look at all the bullshit responses TB gets. Half of them are likely just people looking to get that sweet sweet TB rage by trolling, and the other half is just people who don't understand how to communicate online without being a dick. It's TB. He's salty because he has to deal with people who don't know jack speaking out their ass. I don't blame him for calling people out on it. Speak civilly and there's no problem. Be a dick and be prepared to be called out on it.Seriously, look at all the bullshit responses TB gets. Half of them are likely just people looking to get that sweet sweet TB rage by trolling, and the other half is just people who don't understand how to communicate online without being a dick.

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