ubershmekel Profile Joined May 2010 25 Posts #1



In most cases they weren't. The conclusion still stands, early-mid game zerg is a lot better off with banelings against giant marine balls. Here's the new data:







You'll notice this time around that unupgraded marines are infact bad against roaches. Once the terran has combat shield there's a clear break even point at 4 roaches. Once the terran has stim and shields it's at 2 roaches (an almost irrelevant statistic, it'll always be more marines and roaches by this time). So in the very early game roaches work ok, but once the mules finish a few cycles, you better have banelings or infestors. Another thing to note is that speed roaches don't fair much better at all.



Things I didn't test were burrow roaches and armor/damage upgrades so theory craft follows. Perfect burrow micro can completely break this graph in favor of roaches by hiding hurt roaches and avoiding the walk in to range which favors marines. 3/3 upgrades would also favor roaches because marines go from 5 damage per hit to 5 damage per hit (marine damage upgrade is perfectly negated by roach armor upgrade) while roaches go from 16 to 19 damage per hit against a 3/3 marine.



The replay with the testing: Before the range of roaches was increased I made this test to see if roaches were a good counter to marines: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147849 In most cases they weren't. The conclusion still stands, early-mid game zerg is a lot better off with banelings against giant marine balls. Here's the new data:You'll notice this time around that unupgraded marines are infact bad against roaches. Once the terran has combat shield there's a clear break even point at 4 roaches. Once the terran has stim and shields it's at 2 roaches (an almost irrelevant statistic, it'll always be more marines and roaches by this time). So in the very early game roaches work ok, but once the mules finish a few cycles, you better have banelings or infestors. Another thing to note is that speed roaches don't fair much better at all.Things I didn't test were burrow roaches and armor/damage upgrades so theory craft follows. Perfect burrow micro can completely break this graph in favor of roaches by hiding hurt roaches and avoiding the walk in to range which favors marines. 3/3 upgrades would also favor roaches because marines go from 5 damage per hit to 5 damage per hit (marine damage upgrade is perfectly negated by roach armor upgrade) while roaches go from 16 to 19 damage per hit against a 3/3 marine.The replay with the testing: http://replayfu.com/r/GFVxVf

ChickenLips Profile Blog Joined May 2010 2912 Posts #2 I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble. ❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿

Perscienter Profile Joined June 2010 943 Posts #3

I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that. On October 31 2010 01:13 ChickenLips wrote:

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.

Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings? Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings?

orotoss Profile Joined September 2010 United States 298 Posts #4



Since you rarely see marines without at least a few marauders, roaches are probably even worse than this table shows.



Thanks for the info, always love me some theorycrafting.Since you rarely see marines without at least a few marauders, roaches are probably even worse than this table shows. I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.



This.



Ever since colossi, banelings, infestors, and tanks became standard units, I have been wondering why pros aren't finding ways to exploit the splash damage by spreading out their units. We have already figured out the magic box for mutas. Once someone finds an efficient way to scatter ground units without needing 500 apm, marines are going to rape everything. This.Ever since colossi, banelings, infestors, and tanks became standard units, I have been wondering why pros aren't finding ways to exploit the splash damage by spreading out their units. We have already figured out the magic box for mutas. Once someone finds an efficient way to scatter ground units without needing 500 apm, marines are going to rape everything. BLARRGHGHH

orotoss Profile Joined September 2010 United States 298 Posts #5 On October 31 2010 01:19 Perscienter wrote:

I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that.

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:13 ChickenLips wrote:

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.

Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings? I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that.Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings?



Well in his post he clearly said there is no "non-splash" cost-effective counter. And he also was talking about spreading units, which would nullify the usefulness of storm/fungal/banelings. Well in his post he clearly said there is no "non-splash" cost-effective counter. And he also was talking about spreading units, which would nullify the usefulness of storm/fungal/banelings. BLARRGHGHH

sikyon Profile Joined June 2010 Canada 1045 Posts #6 On October 31 2010 01:19 Perscienter wrote:

I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that.

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:13 ChickenLips wrote:

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.

Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings? I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that.Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings?



He means anything in a straight up fight without using splash. And zealots do die to marines with stim if you get enough marines, they will mow the zealots down before they can do substantial damage (and kite chargealots) He means anything in a straight up fight without using splash. And zealots do die to marines with stim if you get enough marines, they will mow the zealots down before they can do substantial damage (and kite chargealots)

Jeffbelittle Profile Joined August 2010 United States 468 Posts #7 So wait, let me get this straight:



Zerglings will die to marines in large numbers due to lack of surrounding and concavity

Banelings will die to marines once they reach critical mass

Roaches will die to marines if their upgraded with standard, non-EBay upgrades

Hydralisks will die to marines in decent numbers

Mutalisks will die to marines going face to face



Seems like marines really put a beating on Zerg as a whole. Maybe I missed something though. Like I didn't account for baneling wrecking marines with proper infestor combination.

Tef Profile Joined April 2008 Sweden 443 Posts #8 On October 31 2010 01:13 ChickenLips wrote:

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.



You seem to forget that both mutas, speedlings and roaches counter spread out marines.

You seem to forget that both mutas, speedlings and roaches counter spread out marines. Dont fuck up, dont fuck yourself

Perscienter Profile Joined June 2010 943 Posts #9 Marines are weak. Try to spread them when you engage the second or third at steppes of war. Open, wide fields are not that common in sc2.

LeibSaiLeib Profile Joined October 2010 173 Posts #10 pros do spread, but it takes quiet a bit of apm to do that, so they use it to macro more marines instead, and they do spread occasionally, NaDa did, seemingly enought benelings to kill all his marines killed very little because of good spread and he won

ChickenLips Profile Blog Joined May 2010 2912 Posts Last Edited: 2010-10-30 16:44:28 #11 On October 31 2010 01:36 Tef wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:13 ChickenLips wrote:

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.



You seem to forget that both mutas, speedlings and roaches counter spread out marines.

You seem to forget that both mutas, speedlings and roaches counter spread out marines.



No. If you account for the gas cost of roaches and mutas, pure marines rapes the heck out of that mix. Test it yourself. Nothing beats stim marines in a straight-up fight because they have no overkill and stim makes them fire TWICE as fast.





Zealots do not counter marines at all if you only mix in 4 marauders for their concussive and micro your marines in big chunks + play in a positionally smart manner. (i.e. dont micro until a zealot touches a part of your army, then micro the third that is closest to zealots back, while maximizing the time the stim-marines auto-fire with 0 overkill) I've killed many a Protoss that tried to go Zealot Sentry against my 8 minute heavy marine MMM push.



No. If you account for the gas cost of roaches and mutas, pure marines rapes the heck out of that mix. Test it yourself. Nothing beats stim marines in a straight-up fight because they have no overkill and stim makes them fire TWICE as fast.Zealots do not counter marines at all if you only mix in 4 marauders for their concussive and micro your marines in big chunks + play in a positionally smart manner. (i.e. dont micro until a zealot touches a part of your army, then micro the third that is closest to zealots back, while maximizing the time the stim-marines auto-fire with 0 overkill) I've killed many a Protoss that tried to go Zealot Sentry against my 8 minute heavy marine MMM push. On October 31 2010 01:42 LeibSaiLeib wrote:

pros do spread, but it takes quiet a bit of apm to do that, so they use it to macro more marines instead, and they do spread occasionally, NaDa did, seemingly enought benelings to kill all his marines killed very little because of good spread and he won



Leenock threw that game away so hardcore. NaDa put his marines in front of his thors and then went on the tiny ramp to Leenocks natural. Any good Zerg would have butt-raped that move since the marines cant run away. However Leenocks fed his banelings to his stim-ball bit by bit until not enough banelings were remaining. The 5 that attacked the ball on the ramp quickly got taken out by stim auto-fire. Leenock threw that game away so hardcore. NaDa put his marines in front of his thors and then went on the tiny ramp to Leenocks natural. Any good Zerg would have butt-raped that move since the marines cant run away. However Leenocks fed his banelings to his stim-ball bit by bit until not enough banelings were remaining. The 5 that attacked the ball on the ramp quickly got taken out by stim auto-fire. ❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿

Panoptic Profile Joined September 2009 United Kingdom 515 Posts #12 On October 31 2010 01:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:

So wait, let me get this straight:



Zerglings will die to marines in large numbers due to lack of surrounding and concavity

Banelings will die to marines once they reach critical mass

Roaches will die to marines if their upgraded with standard, non-EBay upgrades

Hydralisks will die to marines in decent numbers

Mutalisks will die to marines going face to face



Seems like marines really put a beating on Zerg as a whole. Maybe I missed something though. Like I didn't account for baneling wrecking marines with proper infestor combination.



Most certainly not.

Most certainly not. "Crom laughs at your four winds!"

LeibSaiLeib Profile Joined October 2010 173 Posts #13 On October 31 2010 01:42 Panoptic wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:

So wait, let me get this straight:



Zerglings will die to marines in large numbers due to lack of surrounding and concavity

Banelings will die to marines once they reach critical mass

Roaches will die to marines if their upgraded with standard, non-EBay upgrades

Hydralisks will die to marines in decent numbers

Mutalisks will die to marines going face to face



Seems like marines really put a beating on Zerg as a whole. Maybe I missed something though. Like I didn't account for baneling wrecking marines with proper infestor combination.



Most certainly not.

Most certainly not.



benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...



and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win

Panoptic Profile Joined September 2009 United Kingdom 515 Posts #14 On October 31 2010 01:47 LeibSaiLeib wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:42 Panoptic wrote:

On October 31 2010 01:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:

So wait, let me get this straight:



Zerglings will die to marines in large numbers due to lack of surrounding and concavity

Banelings will die to marines once they reach critical mass

Roaches will die to marines if their upgraded with standard, non-EBay upgrades

Hydralisks will die to marines in decent numbers

Mutalisks will die to marines going face to face



Seems like marines really put a beating on Zerg as a whole. Maybe I missed something though. Like I didn't account for baneling wrecking marines with proper infestor combination.



Most certainly not.

Most certainly not.



benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...



and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win



But realistically...if you go and watch tons of high level games, banes rape marines plenty of times. I don't buy it. But realistically...if you go and watch tons of high level games, banes rape marines plenty of times. I don't buy it. "Crom laughs at your four winds!"

LeibSaiLeib Profile Joined October 2010 173 Posts #15 On October 31 2010 01:51 Panoptic wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:47 LeibSaiLeib wrote:

On October 31 2010 01:42 Panoptic wrote:

On October 31 2010 01:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:

So wait, let me get this straight:



Zerglings will die to marines in large numbers due to lack of surrounding and concavity

Banelings will die to marines once they reach critical mass

Roaches will die to marines if their upgraded with standard, non-EBay upgrades

Hydralisks will die to marines in decent numbers

Mutalisks will die to marines going face to face



Seems like marines really put a beating on Zerg as a whole. Maybe I missed something though. Like I didn't account for baneling wrecking marines with proper infestor combination.



Most certainly not.

Most certainly not.



benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...



and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win



But realistically...if you go and watch tons of high level games, banes rape marines plenty of times. I don't buy it. But realistically...if you go and watch tons of high level games, banes rape marines plenty of times. I don't buy it.





true, i was talking ideally, ive seen very few microed studder stepping marines vs benes(it works, but seen it rarely), its just not worth the micro/time, since if your doing that, it probably means rest of your army is allready dead. true, i was talking ideally, ive seen very few microed studder stepping marines vs benes(it works, but seen it rarely), its just not worth the micro/time, since if your doing that, it probably means rest of your army is allready dead.

Endorsed Profile Joined May 2010 Netherlands 1221 Posts Last Edited: 2010-10-30 16:56:05 #16 On October 31 2010 01:47 LeibSaiLeib wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:42 Panoptic wrote:

On October 31 2010 01:30 Jeffbelittle wrote:

So wait, let me get this straight:



Zerglings will die to marines in large numbers due to lack of surrounding and concavity

Banelings will die to marines once they reach critical mass

Roaches will die to marines if their upgraded with standard, non-EBay upgrades

Hydralisks will die to marines in decent numbers

Mutalisks will die to marines going face to face



Seems like marines really put a beating on Zerg as a whole. Maybe I missed something though. Like I didn't account for baneling wrecking marines with proper infestor combination.



Most certainly not.

Most certainly not.



benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...



and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win benelings offcreep will die to microed marines, dosent matter the number...and on creep you can kill alot of benes before your marines die, stim and studder steping for the win



Do you just forgot to upgrade speed for the banelings? You can't micro marines vs banelings on creep without marauder support. Or you need to have like 500 APM to micro every single marine away from eachother lol. Also banelings are only half a supply Do you just forgot to upgrade speed for the banelings? You can't micro marines vs banelings on creep without marauder support. Or you need to have like 500 APM to micro every single marine away from eachother lol. Also banelings are only half a supply

Ganondorf Profile Joined April 2010 Italy 600 Posts Last Edited: 2010-10-30 17:07:51 #17 Given the unit's size, it depends on the formation.You can pack more marines in the first line than roaches, so it comes down to micro and positioning.



I don't know if any human being has the apm to micro a critical mass of marines vs banelings perfectly. Also any obstacles on the map make this even more difficult. Ah yeah edit: moving marines means the critical mass to oneshot banelings is lost, because they run and can't focus fire effectively: they run in different directions spreading out, so only a few banelings stay in range.

xZiGGY Profile Joined August 2010 United Kingdom 783 Posts #18 not testing cara 1? ;/ Meh.

Panoptic Profile Joined September 2009 United Kingdom 515 Posts #19 On October 31 2010 01:57 xZiGGY wrote:

not testing cara 1? ;/



I'd bet it makes a huge difference. I'd bet it makes a huge difference. "Crom laughs at your four winds!"

superstartran Profile Joined March 2010 United States 1973 Posts #20 On October 31 2010 01:19 Perscienter wrote:

I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that.

Show nested quote +

On October 31 2010 01:13 ChickenLips wrote:

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to compare anything non-splash to stim marines, because there simply isn't anything that is cost-effective vs them. Once Terrans learn how to spread their marines P and Z are gonna be in for a lot of trouble.

Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings? I would have liked to see a chart concerning marines just with stim. Probably the roaches will already lose that.Nothing is cost-effective against them? What about zealots and psionic storm? What about fungal growth and banelings?







Z has no cost effective counter to Marines. This has always been the case even in BW. If the T player constantly attacks you with well timed infantry attacks and doesn't let you hit critical mass, you will have a tough time dealing with Marines simply because you are spending larave/gas on troops on a limited 2 bases, since there's no way you can saturate the 3rd without dying.







Why do you think every T all of a sudden went to Marine/Tank now? Z has no cost effective counter to Marines. This has always been the case even in BW. If the T player constantly attacks you with well timed infantry attacks and doesn't let you hit critical mass, you will have a tough time dealing with Marines simply because you are spending larave/gas on troops on a limited 2 bases, since there's no way you can saturate the 3rd without dying.Why do you think every T all of a sudden went to Marine/Tank now?

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