Frankie Teardrop Profile Joined March 2013 United States 74 Posts #1 Greetings!



The front page of the strategy forum is looking pretty bare. Only a handful of topics have seen postings during the last two weeks, so I figure it's time to spice it up with a new topic regarding the most drastic change of the most recent patch.



I'm wondering if anybody has found any good uses for the new swarm host? As somebody who didn't like the old swarm host, I can't say as I'm sorry to see it redesigned to serve a new purpose. However, most reactions I have read on reddit and battle.net would seem to imply that the unit has been nerfed to oblivion and is far too expensive as a "mobile harassment" unit to ever warrant being chosen over mutalisks for that purpose.



I myself have only found only one good niche for the new swarm hosts, and that is in ZvP when I choose to open with upgrades speedlings. At 200 gas a pop, they are too costly to be built alongside roaches or hydralisks, and since we don't seem to need any more than 6-8 SH anymore, zerglings are the best way to eat up all that extra larvae.



What I have been doing is using a standard ZvP 3 base 1-1 speedling opener, then teching to lair, starting an infestation pit and 2-2 before researching the flying locust upgrade (which takes forever). I then make 6-8 SH while I tech to hive for 3-3, adrenal glands, and ultralisks.



With the swarm hosts, I try and post them up on the other side of a ledge or wall below/across from either the protoss main or natural. I use my lings to constantly pressure the protoss 3rd, keeping his army busy while I fly my locusts over the ledge/wall and snipe the nexus.



So far, I have had a lot of success using this strategy, and am finding swarm hosts to be a much more effective gas sink to use as a transition between zerglings and ultralisks than either mutas or infestors. However, at this point it does seem like the new swarm host has been pigeonholed into the gimmicky role of sniping buildings and running away.



Has anybody found any other way to use swarm hosts effectively at mid-high levels of play? In most circumstances, if zerg is looking for a "mobile harass unit" it would seem that 1600 gas would be much better spent making 16 mutalisks than 7 swarm hosts and a necessary upgrade that takes almost 3 minutes to complete.

CursOr Profile Blog Joined January 2009 United States 6320 Posts #2 I am literally scared to make them in ZvP. Anyone who can post replays (good or bad) would be appreciated. I am currently still 10 pooling protoss. Seems to be SUPER effective. CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #3 No clue. I agree with you that upgraded lings is probably best, but the only good protoss (macro) openings are either blink/sentry pressure or stargate. Against the first, you need to get roaches and hydras to hold on and you don't have money or time for harass units. (otherwise we would have already seen mutalisks counterattacks against those styles work).

And the other feels like the strongest counter there is from Protoss. Phoenix not only can easily hunt down the swarm hosts and pick them up, they are amazing at killing the locusts when they fly to the protoss base.



I feel like the only good application of those Swarm Hosts is a defensive Mech player that gives you time to invest your gas into Swarm Hosts and can't punish you with mass hellion/hellbat based pushes. And then I feel like you want 20 or 30 of them, spread them out and bust their ground army. They feel pretty useless if you don't have a ton of them.

Defenestrator Profile Joined October 2011 400 Posts #4 On April 24 2015 11:16 Big J wrote:

No clue. I agree with you that upgraded lings is probably best, but the only good protoss (macro) openings are either blink/sentry pressure or stargate. Against the first, you need to get roaches and hydras to hold on and you don't have money or time for harass units. (otherwise we would have already seen mutalisks counterattacks against those styles work).



Pretty much this. What level are you playing at, and do you have replays of you playing this style? I have tried this style out and it can work, but it was at the mid-diamond level so I am not sure it scales well to high diamond and beyond.



In the midgame vs stalker/sentry or stalker/sentry/immo I favor roaches and infestors to bolster the ling force, SH don't seem like they'd be very reliable (1 set of forcefields against your locusts and you're boned vs that comp; I don't think you have time to get the locust upgrade, and SH are terrible defensively). Pretty much this. What level are you playing at, and do you have replays of you playing this style? I have tried this style out and it can work, but it was at the mid-diamond level so I am not sure it scales well to high diamond and beyond.In the midgame vs stalker/sentry or stalker/sentry/immo I favor roaches and infestors to bolster the ling force, SH don't seem like they'd be very reliable (1 set of forcefields against your locusts and you're boned vs that comp; I don't think you have time to get the locust upgrade, and SH are terrible defensively). Ultras and banelings go together like peas and carrots

AkashSky Profile Joined May 2014 United States 256 Posts #5 I have not yet seen a zerg enemy in master league use the new swarm host against me. Maybe its because I do alot of aggression in ZvP and force roach/hydra, but yeah. I have seen the new swarm host used vs Terran to take down planetary fortress. They have some sick DPS, but are shut down by widow mines. Essentially you need to use them strategically. I do think that their cost is a bit excessive, gas wise, but at the same time its free units so i'm not complaining against any swarm host nerf. I much prefer the sounds of my own imagination. Visit my blog at AkashSky.com for additional Inquiries!

friendship Profile Joined November 2014 32 Posts #6 I've found that after having 10+ mutas, an additional 1k gas of SH is slightly more useful than the muta cost if you're playing ling bane muta vs a bio mine guy.



Helpful for staggering the push onto creep while banes are morphing between waves, and setting off widowmines in the terran army. That said, more than 5 or so is a bad idea. Also I suspect this style will not be optimal when LOTV ultras are available.





tar Profile Joined October 2010 Germany 990 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-24 06:46:57 #7 used SHs on Vaani to great effect vs toss. Vods are not up yet, but should be soon. Make sure to take look at it.



He basically used them for raids against the protoss base. His first attack killed the inbase natural, from there things went downhill for the poor toss In yesterdays KungFu league matches, Snute used SHs on Vaani to great effect vs toss. Vods are not up yet, but should be soon. Make sure to take look at it.He basically used them for raids against the protoss base. His first attack killed the inbase natural, from there things went downhill for the poor toss whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu

Devolved Profile Joined April 2008 United States 2752 Posts #8 I went mech in a TvZ against a zerg that went for these new flying locusts and I was at a complete loss as to how to counter them. Normally, tanks in numbers could hold off the locusts, but these things fly right on top of the tanks and then drop down. They seem to hard-counter tanks, which previously were the counter to them. It almost seems like it counters mech completely and gives Terran less options on their overall strategy. $♥$

phodacbiet Profile Joined August 2010 United States 1664 Posts #9 On April 24 2015 18:26 Devolved wrote:

I went mech in a TvZ against a zerg that went for these new flying locusts and I was at a complete loss as to how to counter them. Normally, tanks in numbers could hold off the locusts, but these things fly right on top of the tanks and then drop down. They seem to hard-counter tanks, which previously were the counter to them. It almost seems like it counters mech completely and gives Terran less options on their overall strategy.



You didn't make thors or vikings? If the zerg could afford that much gas for Swarm Hosts you could have made thors or vikings since you should be on 3 base + by then. You didn't make thors or vikings? If the zerg could afford that much gas for Swarm Hosts you could have made thors or vikings since you should be on 3 base + by then.

JulDraGoN Profile Blog Joined September 2004 Sweden 368 Posts #10



Looked like a pretty solid way of playing long term macro game and survive the midgame pushes.

Here is the start of the game



http://www.twitch.tv/sortofsc/v/4288699?t=1h38m46s SortOf played a few games on stream yesterday where he went infestor, broodlord, viper, swarmhost and mass static defense in ZvP.Looked like a pretty solid way of playing long term macro game and survive the midgame pushes.Here is the start of the game I mean nobody wants to admit they eat 9 cans of ravioli, but I did and I'm ashamed of myself. The first can doesn't count and then you get to the second, and the third. The fourth and fifth I think I burnt with the blow torch and I just kept eating.

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13354 Posts #11 On April 24 2015 19:04 phodacbiet wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 18:26 Devolved wrote:

I went mech in a TvZ against a zerg that went for these new flying locusts and I was at a complete loss as to how to counter them. Normally, tanks in numbers could hold off the locusts, but these things fly right on top of the tanks and then drop down. They seem to hard-counter tanks, which previously were the counter to them. It almost seems like it counters mech completely and gives Terran less options on their overall strategy.



You didn't make thors or vikings? If the zerg could afford that much gas for Swarm Hosts you could have made thors or vikings since you should be on 3 base + by then. You didn't make thors or vikings? If the zerg could afford that much gas for Swarm Hosts you could have made thors or vikings since you should be on 3 base + by then.



with thors and vikings you can't kill all of the locusts before they land and then they force terrible damage on your tank line, or he can just use them to snipe your bases while you are out of position.

I had a game where he placed his swarmhosts next to my fourth base and constantly attacked it with locusts. when I kept my army there he would trade with it for free and when I didn't do it he just killed my fourth.

No clue what I should have done, mech is obviously to slow to chase them down.

Needless to say I have stopped meching since that game. with thors and vikings you can't kill all of the locusts before they land and then they force terrible damage on your tank line, or he can just use them to snipe your bases while you are out of position.I had a game where he placed his swarmhosts next to my fourth base and constantly attacked it with locusts. when I kept my army there he would trade with it for free and when I didn't do it he just killed my fourth.No clue what I should have done, mech is obviously to slow to chase them down.Needless to say I have stopped meching since that game. INnoVation

Frankie Teardrop Profile Joined March 2013 United States 74 Posts #12 On April 25 2015 01:24 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 24 2015 19:04 phodacbiet wrote:

On April 24 2015 18:26 Devolved wrote:

I went mech in a TvZ against a zerg that went for these new flying locusts and I was at a complete loss as to how to counter them. Normally, tanks in numbers could hold off the locusts, but these things fly right on top of the tanks and then drop down. They seem to hard-counter tanks, which previously were the counter to them. It almost seems like it counters mech completely and gives Terran less options on their overall strategy.



You didn't make thors or vikings? If the zerg could afford that much gas for Swarm Hosts you could have made thors or vikings since you should be on 3 base + by then. You didn't make thors or vikings? If the zerg could afford that much gas for Swarm Hosts you could have made thors or vikings since you should be on 3 base + by then.



with thors and vikings you can't kill all of the locusts before they land and then they force terrible damage on your tank line, or he can just use them to snipe your bases while you are out of position.

I had a game where he placed his swarmhosts next to my fourth base and constantly attacked it with locusts. when I kept my army there he would trade with it for free and when I didn't do it he just killed my fourth.

No clue what I should have done, mech is obviously to slow to chase them down.

Needless to say I have stopped meching since that game. with thors and vikings you can't kill all of the locusts before they land and then they force terrible damage on your tank line, or he can just use them to snipe your bases while you are out of position.I had a game where he placed his swarmhosts next to my fourth base and constantly attacked it with locusts. when I kept my army there he would trade with it for free and when I didn't do it he just killed my fourth.No clue what I should have done, mech is obviously to slow to chase them down.Needless to say I have stopped meching since that game.



Actually, since they tend to bunch up, thors are the new hard coutner to flying locusts, and tanks are now weak vs SH. A bit of a role reversal.



The locusts fly painfully slow too, so if you have 3+ thors guarding your tanks, they should be able to kill all of the locusts before they can even swoop.



No need to stop meching in TvZ. For the first time since I started playing SC2 (2012), mech is just as viable (if not moreso) than bio. If you check out the battle.net forums and allthingszerg on reddit, you will see more zergs complaining about (and trying to find a solution to) mech this season than anything else. Actually, since they tend to bunch up, thors are the new hard coutner to flying locusts, and tanks are now weak vs SH. A bit of a role reversal.The locusts fly painfully slow too, so if you have 3+ thors guarding your tanks, they should be able to kill all of the locusts before they can even swoop.No need to stop meching in TvZ. For the first time since I started playing SC2 (2012), mech is just as viable (if not moreso) than bio. If you check out the battle.net forums and allthingszerg on reddit, you will see more zergs complaining about (and trying to find a solution to) mech this season than anything else.

jinjin5000 Profile Joined May 2010 Korea (South) 871 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-25 02:16:26 #13 From what ive seen as mech terran, its usefulness is extremely map dependant ob how exposed main is.



Its overall a niche but useful tool to have "Best Mind Shuttle Best Mind Shuttle" -Telecom, 2010-present, I hate Telecom

FabledIntegral Profile Blog Joined November 2008 United States 9203 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-25 20:30:15 #14 On April 24 2015 18:26 Devolved wrote:

I went mech in a TvZ against a zerg that went for these new flying locusts and I was at a complete loss as to how to counter them. Normally, tanks in numbers could hold off the locusts, but these things fly right on top of the tanks and then drop down. They seem to hard-counter tanks, which previously were the counter to them. It almost seems like it counters mech completely and gives Terran less options on their overall strategy.



Yeah I built like 16 SH vs a mech player and they were useless because my opponent had 4 thors and some vikings. Nearly lost me the game. Fortunatley, prior to building them, I had mined the entire map and built up a 12k/5k bank and he had no money. But they were anything but cost efficient :S. I would have rather spawned locusts on the ground...



The old SH was much, much better vs mech than the new SH. Yeah I built like 16 SH vs a mech player and they were useless because my opponent had 4 thors and some vikings. Nearly lost me the game. Fortunatley, prior to building them, I had mined the entire map and built up a 12k/5k bank and he had no money. But they were anything but cost efficient :S. I would have rather spawned locusts on the ground...The old SH was much, much better vs mech than the new SH.

Frankie Teardrop Profile Joined March 2013 United States 74 Posts #15 I saw a LotV VoD of Catz using this mass upgraded lings with a few swarm hosts strategy vs Protoss to great success. I've also been finding that I have been able to beat protoss who play at a higher level than me using this build as well. I've only lost once or twice against protoss players since I started playing it, due to failing to scout a 2 base all-in. So far my success rate is about 95%. This may be due to the fact Protoss don't seem to expect anybody to use the new swarm hosts, since they really are garbage for everything except sniping buildings.



As long as you can confirm that the Protoss isn't going to hit you with a quick 2 base all-in, you're free to start upgrading lings and teching toward swarm hosts. With this play style, the Protoss never makes it more than 1/4 of the way across the map. Before your swarm hosts are out, the Protoss is pinned to his new/still building 3rd base. Any time he tries to move out, you can run in with lings and threaten to cancel/kill the 3rd or sneak into the naural. I have gotten more 3rd base kills/cancels already this season than I have in the last 2 years I HotS combined using roach/ling, hydra/ling and roach/hydra midgame styles.



By the time the protoss has enough colossus and cannons at his 3rd to be able to move out, you have swarm hosts flying locusts over a ledge or wall into his natural (or main, depending on the map) to eat a nexus. It only takes 5-7 swarm hosts to kill a nexus with 1 wave of locusts, depending on how much time the locusts need to spend in the air before swooping, and how much static defense the Protoss has at the location. It's never taken me more than 7 and I have not yet failed to kill a nexus with one wave of locusts.. At this point, the Protoss is REALLY pinned back as he is forced to defend two bases at once. You can choose to engage with your 2-2 lings anytime you catch the protoss army out of position or missing forcefields. Or, if he is defending well and has several colossus and good micro, you can just choose to avoid engaging altogether and keep harassing until ultras are out.



Once ultras are out, you will likely have 4 bases up and running while the Protoss is scrambling to rebuild one of his 3 bases after having it destroyed by locusts. (Sometimes I even manage to take out 2 of his nexii, leaving him with only one mining base for a couple minutes.). With 4-5 ultras, you are pretty much free to end the game at any point since forcefields are now useless and you have a good counter to colossus. I usually go up to 8-10 ultras if I haven't won by that point.



Right now this seems to be the easiest way to play a macro game vs protoss. For the last 6 months or so, I have been practicing my ZvP extensively, and it has become my best matchup. I have worked my way up to 65-75% win rates vs Protoss in KR Diamond leaue by using roach/hydra/(viper if needed) timings into muta tech switches, but this ling/swarm host into ultralisk style is even easier and has a higher success rate right now (at least at my level.)

weikor Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Austria 578 Posts #16 On April 24 2015 22:02 JulDraGoN wrote:

SortOf played a few games on stream yesterday where he went infestor, broodlord, viper, swarmhost and mass static defense in ZvP.



Looked like a pretty solid way of playing long term macro game and survive the midgame pushes.

Here is the start of the game



http://www.twitch.tv/sortofsc/v/4288699?t=1h38m46s SortOf played a few games on stream yesterday where he went infestor, broodlord, viper, swarmhost and mass static defense in ZvP.Looked like a pretty solid way of playing long term macro game and survive the midgame pushes.Here is the start of the game



i agree, swarm hosts seemed effective in that game. If you watched it , SortOf manages to harrass the natural well with it, and snipe a few nexi in a very long drawn out game, where both sides avoid a direct army engagement.



He has a superior army composition for most of the game, and decides to turtle it up - so he can use the swarm hosts.



In the end, the protoss managing to secure 2 more bases forces him to move out with his broodlord / corruptor / viper / infestor army that he has had for 20 minutes. He crushes him, something he could have done much earlier.



Id say there was a short window when swarmhosts were actually effective, the rest was just cool and could have been done equally well with mutas, nydus or the likes.



i agree, swarm hosts seemed effective in that game. If you watched it , SortOf manages to harrass the natural well with it, and snipe a few nexi in a very long drawn out game, where both sides avoid a direct army engagement.He has a superior army composition for most of the game, and decides to turtle it up - so he can use the swarm hosts.In the end, the protoss managing to secure 2 more bases forces him to move out with his broodlord / corruptor / viper / infestor army that he has had for 20 minutes. He crushes him, something he could have done much earlier.Id say there was a short window when swarmhosts were actually effective, the rest was just cool and could have been done equally well with mutas, nydus or the likes.

Scrubby-onE Profile Joined September 2010 Canada 42 Posts #17 The thing about the new SH is they're basically just very expensive harassing units. They don't really stop pushes because of the long intervals, once the opponents army clears your locust once, you're vulnerable for a very long time.

Defenestrator Profile Joined October 2011 400 Posts #18 Petraeus vs Morrow games 1 and 2 are great examples of SH usage vs Mech. G1 was sloppy by Petraeus, he went for a bunch of unit comps that didn't work before settling on SH, G2 is much cleaner and he stomps Morrow despite Morrow adapting as well. Ultras and banelings go together like peas and carrots

Teoita Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Italy 11896 Posts #19 From what i have seen they are actually pretty good units for stuff like attacking multiple places and harassment. It will take a while to figure them out but i dont feel like they are as useless as most people seem to believe. Moderator Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.