But you don't look at something like that and say, "Oh, it's so beautiful. It's so complex. It should be called a planet." That is not the way we do things in science. We don't want to disappoint the members of the public, and I am all about informing the public on what we do and getting them inspired to feel a part of it. But the public should not be telling scientists how to do their science any more than a member of the public should stand behind a dentist while she's drilling in your mouth and say, "I think you should go a half-inch back and three inches down." They shouldn't be telling us how to categorize things. We love them. We want them to enjoy what we do. But when push comes to shove, scientists are scientists for a reason. You've got to let us do our job.

Carl Sagan

Mat Kaplan: What were the most important things that you got out of your relationship with Carl Sagan?

Carolyn Porco: I felt that he had my back. There were times when someone was rude to me or said something to me that was really inappropriate at a meeting. And in his very Carl way—very gracious, witty, calm, and measured—he would defend me, but not tell the guy, "Oh, you're being such a jerk." [laughs] That's something I might do.

I also watched the way that he conducted himself as a scientist in combat. Sitting around a table when there's heated discussion, he was always very measured and calm. I don't know if it was his voice, his bearing, or what, but he could bring tempers down. He just was very principled in the way he conducted himself. And so I use him as an example of what a scientist really should and could be.

He was pretty much that way personally, too. What you saw on television is what you got. I think he deserves all the affection and accolades that he's received during his life and since, because he was the real McCoy.

Mat Kaplan: It must have been quite an honor when you were asked to help out with the production of the movie Contact.

Carolyn Porco: It was a complete surprise. He invited me to have dinner with him and Annie [Ann Druyan, Carl Sagan's wife and collaborator on various projects including Contact] at their house. So we were having dinner and as you can imagine, the conversation was very wide-ranging: everything from SETI to the pale blue dot and women in science and so many things. It wasn't until afterward that he invited me to be a consultant on the main character, Ellie Arroway. I realized then I was probably being interviewed for the job at that dinner.

I'll never forget, he called me up and said, "Out of all the people we know, out of all the women scientists we know, we think that you come closest to being what we want to portray on the screen." So of course I was delighted.

The plan was for me to meet with Jodie Foster. She was going to kind of shadow me for a day or two. So there was about a year when the people at Warner Bros. would call me up and say, "Oh, quick. Give us your schedule for the next two months." And so, I'd do it and then two months would go by and nothing would happen. And then they'd call me again, same thing. And this went on about three or four times. I remember calling Carl up and saying, "Carl, what's going on here?" And he said to me, "Hollywood makes the DPS [Division for Planetary Sciences of the American Astronomical Society] look like the paradigm of fascist order." [laughs] So, I never got to meet with Jodie Foster.

Mat Kaplan: I can certainly see some elements of your character in what Jodie Foster brought to that wonderful character at the center of that movie.

Carolyn Porco: Okay, so you tell me: What characteristics?

Mat Kaplan: Her independence, the enormous curiosity, the passion that she brought to her work.

Carolyn Porco: I asked Carl directly, like twice, "Who is this character based on?" And he said, "Well, it's really based on me." The voice of Ellie is Carl's voice in talking about the approach to science, the conflict between religion and science. And all that stuff that she says, or what she espouses, is all Carl. That's his voice. But I think he pulled together bits and pieces from various people.

Mat Kaplan: A little of Jill Tarter [SETI pioneer], a little of you, a lot of his own voice. Some of Annie as well.

Carolyn Porco: Oh, I think it's mostly Annie. But I think, I don't know what you would call it, the accouterments were taken from various people. Like, I went to graduate school at Caltech and I have long hair and I'm feisty. Jill's father died when she was young; I think he got that from her. I know that there are scenes in the book that come out of Annie's life. And I think they took a lot of their own relationship and put it in the book. So I think of Ellie as kind of a composite character. But really, if you're hell-bent on thinking of Ellie Arroway as a single person, then she's Carl Sagan in drag. [laughs]