Jermstuddog Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 2215 Posts Last Edited: 2011-09-01 03:07:01 #1



On August 31 2011 22:06 highsis wrote:

http://www.playxp.com/sc2/tip/view.php?article_id=3350319



A Korean Protoss pro MilkyWay has just released a method to completely stop apylon/bunker wall in at the opponent's ramp between the base and the natural.



I personally believe that artificial controls over game plays must be minimized, so I'm creating a new thread to inform this tip, encouraging foreign tourneys that use neutral supply depot to prevent wall in rush to remove those depots from the map, since the particular play can be overcome with the tip Milkyway provided.



The tip is very simple. When your ramp is blocked by your opponent, you first gather your workers near by the ramp. Then you should click on a close mineral patch in your natural. The workers will stack right in front of the wall. You should A-click the wall, which will instantly cause your slack to go loose. You should quickly re-click the mineral patch, and keep doing this until the wall is broken.



According to Milkyway, this method will deal a damage of 50~60(depending on your neat execution and worker counts) per attack and you will most likely break through the wall when the first cannon is about 50% done. You should force cancel the cannon/ other bunkers under construction using your workers.



Milkyway added in comments that Protoss will virtually have 0% winrate if their cannon rush fails this way, since Zerg would suffer almost 0 damage(little mining time), while Protoss would lose 3 pylons and a few cannons. He even recommends Zerg players to induce Protoss to do cannon rush if the zerg player is confident with his execution of this Wall Breaker method. He asserts that this will 100% prevent/stop cannon and bunker walling in rush, if executed properly by the defender. He also said that Zergs should always take expansions first to maximize the advantage.



I never liked foreign tourneys preventing wall in type rushes by artificial means because you actually can prevent it with pure micro skills such as by putting your worker on patrol and using your workers to repel your opponent's probes/scvs/marines. It just required some attention and fair micro.



Anyways, since the hard counter has been released, I hope we do not see neutral supply depots to prevent wall ins on foreign tourney maps anymore.



This is my first thread, so I hope I didn't mess up anything big. Rejoice, Zerg players.



Milkyway's original post was blinded because angry Protoss mobs thumbed down this tip(it was more like prank thumb downs because Protoss is doing so poorly in Korea. With today's result, Protoss's winrate in current GSL dropped to 31%. I'm mentioning this to explain why Milkyway's great thread was blinded, so please stay refrained from off topic balance posts.)





A Korean Protoss pro MilkyWay has just released a method to completely stop apylon/bunker wall in at the opponent's ramp between the base and the natural.I personally believe that artificial controls over game plays must be minimized, so I'm creating a new thread to inform this tip, encouraging foreign tourneys that use neutral supply depot to prevent wall in rush to remove those depots from the map, since the particular play can be overcome with the tip Milkyway provided.The tip is very simple. When your ramp is blocked by your opponent, you first gather your workers near by the ramp. Then you should click on a close mineral patch in your natural. The workers will stack right in front of the wall. You should A-click the wall, which will instantly cause your slack to go loose. You should quickly re-click the mineral patch, and keep doing this until the wall is broken.According to Milkyway, this method will deal a damage of 50~60(depending on your neat execution and worker counts) per attack and you will most likely break through the wall when the first cannon is about 50% done. You should force cancel the cannon/ other bunkers under construction using your workers.Milkyway added in comments that Protoss will virtually have 0% winrate if their cannon rush fails this way, since Zerg would suffer almost 0 damage(little mining time), while Protoss would lose 3 pylons and a few cannons. He even recommends Zerg players to induce Protoss to do cannon rush if the zerg player is confident with his execution of this Wall Breaker method. He asserts that this will 100% prevent/stop cannon and bunker walling in rush, if executed properly by the defender. He also said that Zergs should always take expansions first to maximize the advantage.I never liked foreign tourneys preventing wall in type rushes by artificial means because you actually can prevent it with pure micro skills such as by putting your worker on patrol and using your workers to repel your opponent's probes/scvs/marines. It just required some attention and fair micro.Anyways, since the hard counter has been released, I hope we do not see neutral supply depots to prevent wall ins on foreign tourney maps anymore.This is my first thread, so I hope I didn't mess up anything big. Rejoice, Zerg players.Milkyway's original post was blinded because angry Protoss mobs thumbed down this tip(it was more like prank thumb downs because Protoss is doing so poorly in Korea. With today's result, Protoss's winrate in current GSL dropped to 31%. I'm mentioning this to explain why Milkyway's great thread was blinded, so please stay refrained from off topic balance posts.)



So this is obviously going to mean that Zerg has a viable defense for a cannon wall-in and should have some lighter, but still effective implications for bunker wall-ins.



Here's a video posted by Nemesys showing the drill in action:

Ripping this off from the custom map forum.So this is obviously going to mean that Zerg has a viable defense for a cannon wall-in and should have some lighter, but still effective implications for bunker wall-ins.Here's a video posted by Nemesys showing the drill in action:



I think this small technique, refined of course, will work wonders for early game base defense for Zerg and am opening a mirror thread here to discuss the utility of the tactic rather than removing the depot from maps.



Discuss!



edits:



I like the old video better...



very informative post:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=261179¤tpage=5#83 I think this small technique, refined of course, will work wonders for early game base defense for Zerg and am opening a mirror thread here to discuss the utility of the tactic rather than removing the depot from maps.Discuss!edits:I like the old video better...very informative post: As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro

Tokyla Profile Joined July 2011 Canada 41 Posts #2 it does look like a great strategy and the fact that you only lose well a bit of mining time, but for the protoss he spends a lot of minerals 100 for each pylon and 150 for each cannon. Definitely something that should be refined and used. Enemies = Mass Carriers(squared)

cpomz Profile Joined February 2011 United States 72 Posts #3 Man, I'm going to test this out, As zerg the only thing i fear is cannon rushes since I hatch first like 90% of my games against protoss, but would this work on Taldarim?

JonnyLaw Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 2725 Posts #4 This is a very clever trick. Nice job thinking outside the box.

Saechiis Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Netherlands 4080 Posts #5 Great, they should remove the neutral supply depots in tournament play so I can wall off below ramp with a clean conscience ^^ I think esports is pretty nice.

asmo.0 Profile Joined August 2010 Norway 318 Posts #6 Hmm this looks really awesome, and a "fair" counter to the cannon wall-in that has plagued ladder since release.



Question: Does this work against the 3pylon walloff on taldarim as well?

Goolpsy Profile Joined November 2010 Denmark 281 Posts #7 That is 15 drones working to take down a pylon? And then thereafter have to take down 1 or 2 cannons. How is that not alot of mining time?

The Math is 3xpylon + 2 cancelled cannons = 362 minerals vs 15/all mining workers for 1 ingame minute.



I do not not the exact numbers, but is it certain that Zerg will be economically ahead after this?

Swien Profile Joined December 2010 Netherlands 14 Posts #8



Also, what is the problem with the current supply depot placing? It seems to me there's no real issue with it, since in my mind the only thing it does is allow zergs to play without knowing this "trick", and there are no actual downsides to the supply depot being there?



all in all great find though, props to milkyway I suppose this is only as easy to pull off if you can actually click on minerals at the natural while without moving camera you can also attack the pylon with your drones, are there any maps where this isn't possible?Also, what is the problem with the current supply depot placing? It seems to me there's no real issue with it, since in my mind the only thing it does is allow zergs to play without knowing this "trick", and there are no actual downsides to the supply depot being there?all in all great find though, props to milkyway

Goolpsy Profile Joined November 2010 Denmark 281 Posts Last Edited: 2011-08-31 16:12:08 #9 On September 01 2011 01:08 Swien wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +



Also, what is the problem with the current supply depot placing? It seems to me there's no real issue with it, since in my mind the only thing it does is allow zergs to play without knowing this "trick", and there are no actual downsides to the supply depot being there?



all in all great find though, props to milkyway I suppose this is only as easy to pull off if you can actually click on minerals at the natural while without moving camera you can also attack the pylon with your drones, are there any maps where this isn't possible?Also, what is the problem with the current supply depot placing? It seems to me there's no real issue with it, since in my mind the only thing it does is allow zergs to play without knowing this "trick", and there are no actual downsides to the supply depot being there?all in all great find though, props to milkyway



The supply depot hinders Terran and Toss defensive openers, and just look plain silly The supply depot hinders Terran and Toss defensive openers, and just look plain silly

Chill Profile Blog Joined January 2005 Australia 25649 Posts #10 Whao, this is sick. Moderator

MangoTango Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 3670 Posts #11 Woah, that's crazy. Awesome. "One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis

leveller Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Sweden 1840 Posts #12 On September 01 2011 01:08 Swien wrote:

I suppose this is only as easy to pull off if you can actually click on minerals at the natural while without moving camera you can also attack the pylon with your drones, are there any maps where this isn't possible?



Also, what is the problem with the current supply depot placing? It seems to me there's no real issue with it, since in my mind the only thing it does is allow zergs to play without knowing this "trick", and there are no actual downsides to the supply depot being there?



all in all great find though, props to milkyway I suppose this is only as easy to pull off if you can actually click on minerals at the natural while without moving camera you can also attack the pylon with your drones, are there any maps where this isn't possible?Also, what is the problem with the current supply depot placing? It seems to me there's no real issue with it, since in my mind the only thing it does is allow zergs to play without knowing this "trick", and there are no actual downsides to the supply depot being there?all in all great find though, props to milkyway



Sometimes it gets in the way for P or T when we try to FE. Sometimes it gets in the way for P or T when we try to FE.

eieio Profile Blog Joined November 2009 United States 2087 Posts Last Edited: 2011-08-31 16:26:01 #13 On September 01 2011 01:07 Goolpsy wrote:

That is 15 drones working to take down a pylon? And then thereafter have to take down 1 or 2 cannons. How is that not alot of mining time?

The Math is 3xpylon + 2 cancelled cannons = 362 minerals vs 15/all mining workers for 1 ingame minute.



I do not not the exact numbers, but is it certain that Zerg will be economically ahead after this?





I believe 3 pylons + 2 cancelled cannons should be 375 minerals: a cannon costs 150 minerals and you get 75% of the cost back when you cancel a building so you should lose 37.5 minerals per cancelled cannon for a total of 75.



Intuitively to me zerg should be ahead after using this trick but the more I do the math the more it seems like zerg might be behind in terms of minerals spent by toss vs minerals lost by zerg. Perhaps the optimal solution is to bring just enough drones to break down the wall in time to kill the cannons? This definitely depends on how much people can refine this trick / how fast they can get it.



I love this trick! Very exciting to see a broodwar-esque trick like this discovered. It also seems like this should be a big help to zergs dealing with stupid pylon walloffs. I believe 3 pylons + 2 cancelled cannons should be 375 minerals: a cannon costs 150 minerals and you get 75% of the cost back when you cancel a building so you should lose 37.5 minerals per cancelled cannon for a total of 75.Intuitively to me zerg should be ahead after using this trick but the more I do the math the more it seems like zerg might be behind in terms of minerals spent by toss vs minerals lost by zerg. Perhaps the optimal solution is to bring just enough drones to break down the wall in time to kill the cannons? This definitely depends on how much people can refine this trick / how fast they can get it.I love this trick! Very exciting to see a broodwar-esque trick like this discovered. It also seems like this should be a big help to zergs dealing with stupid pylon walloffs. LiquidDota Staff RapGenius.com is white devil sophistry / Urban Dictionary is for demons with college degrees

SaLaYa Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 363 Posts #14



Seriously though, sick find. Noooo anything but my cannon cheeses!!Seriously though, sick find. Cornell 2014 // eYe_am_SaSsY

ggnewbz Profile Joined December 2010 Israel 2 Posts #15 Couldn't they just build another 2 pylons behind the original one and complete the wall?

See.Blue Profile Blog Joined October 2008 United States 2411 Posts #16 This is so sick. Awesome find!

L3gendary Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 1460 Posts #17 Can't watch video but i like where this is going :D. Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon

EtherealDeath Profile Blog Joined July 2007 United States 8294 Posts #18 Psst this has already been posted in Custom Maps ><. Should consolidate discussion there, as that thread is longer and earlier.

acrimoneyius Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 983 Posts #19 Very nice find.

coL.hendralisk Profile Joined September 2009 Zimbabwe 1756 Posts #20 Might start doing 15h in zvp again, though I am still a bit worried about the pylon behind your mineral line -> cannons

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