Closing with consensus prefer no MP4 support. Although this was a complicated RFC, with multiple options for !voting and discussion, the closure itself does not need deep analysis, and can be done very simply without getting into complicated discussions about how to weight the !votes, which !votes ought be set aside as based on a misunderstanding, and so on. For information only, the raw, unadjusted, uncorrected figures were:

Prefer full MP4 support: 145

Prefer partial MP4 support - viewing only: 4

Prefer partial MP4 support - contributions only: 56

Neutral: 7

Prefer no MP4 support: 309

(various other community solutions were also proposed)

It would be possible to subject these raw figures to a close analysis and come up with a more 'accurate' count, but I doubt that that is worth doing as the resultant consensus is unlikely to change.

Now, although the consensus of prefer no MP4 support has to be respected, there is a considerable amount of detailed information here which clearly deserves close study. I have created a new sub-page Commons:Requests for comment/MP4 Video/Analysis of responses to allow editors to work collaboratively on understanding the nuances of what the community has said, and learning for the future. Everybody should be free to help out with that analysis, including editors who have who have expressed strong opinions in the discussion. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:58, 14 February 2014 (UTC)





The Wikimedia Foundation's multimedia team seeks community guidance on whether or not to support the MP4 video file format on Wikimedia projects. This request for comments (RfC) will start on January 15, 2014 and will remain open until February 14, 2014. RfC results will be used to determine whether or not to enable MP4 on our sites -- and how widely.

All users are welcome to participate in this RfC, whether you are a reader, contributor or editor to Wikimedia Commons, Wikipedia, or any other site that uses content from our free media repository. Even if you do not speak English, you are welcome to participate here. If this page has already been translated into your language, click in the translation bar above to read it. If not, we invite you to translate it yourself.

One of the 'crats will close this RFC during the day of 14th February (UTC).







Introduction

Video is used widely for educational purposes on the Internet. Online videos can be an effective learning tool, particularly for people who cannot read well. However, video is not widely used on Wikimedia projects. To date, only 40,500 video files have been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons -- about 0.2% of the 19.9 million other media files in our repository (by contrast, YouTube now hosts over 6.5 million educational videos).

At this time, we only support two open video formats on our sites: Ogg Theora and WebM. Some people think that wide adoption of these open formats has been hampered by three main problems:

Creating videos in open formats is difficult. No widely-available video cameras will record video in these formats. This includes modern mobile phones, the biggest source of new videos globally. Once video is recorded in other formats, special tools like Firefogg are required to re-encode them in open formats, special plugins are required to edit them, and these tools and plugins are not widely used in the video creation and editing community (transcoding can happen server-side, but requires a license.) Once created, these files cannot be viewed on many mobile devices without extra software -- and most videos recorded on mobile devices cannot be directly uploaded to our sites. This is particularly concerning because mobile use of Wikimedia sites is already large (33% of total pageviews last month) and growing rapidly. While the Chrome and Firefox browsers used by a majority of our visitors support WebM by default, a large number of users (several hundred million) visit our site every month in browsers that do not. For them, watching our videos is very difficult, requiring special software installations that are cumbersome for casual users.

Today, the most common digital video format on desktop computers and mobile devices is known as MP4 (also referred to as H.264/MPEG-4 Part 10 or AVC - (see note 1). Online, MP4 is widely used by popular web services such as YouTube, Vimeo, and Apple’s iTunes video distribution system, as well as by web playback systems such as Adobe Flash and Microsoft Silverlight. Hardware devices using this standard include Blu-ray Disc players, iPhones/iPads and Android mobile devices, as well as consumer camcorders using the AVCHD system.

Supporting this widespread MP4 video standard would make it much easier for users to view and contribute video on Wikimedia projects. MP4 is a patent-encumbered format, but the Wikimedia Foundation's legal department has evaluated the situation and determined that the licenses that would be required for our use (AVC video encoding and decoding from MPEG-LA, as well as AAC audio codec from Via) have acceptable terms. Moreover, no royalties are charged currently for AVC video codecs (and only a small upfront fee is due for the AAC audio codec), with no restrictions on our current use of free software (see note 2). Commercial use of MP4 videos contributed to Wikimedia sites with a CC-BY-SA Creative Commons license appears to be authorized under the terms of MPEG-LA’s royalty-free Internet Broadcast sublicense, as outlined below. Since using a proprietary format would be a departure from our current practice of only using open formats on our sites, WMF has opened this Request for Comments to seek community guidance.

To support the MP4 standard as a complement to the open formats now used on our sites, it has been proposed that videos be automatically transcoded and stored in both open and MP4 formats on our sites, as soon as they are uploaded or viewed by users (see note 3). The unencumbered WebM and Ogg versions would remain our primary reference for platforms that support them. But the MP4 versions would enable many mobile and desktop users who cannot view these unencumbered video files to watch them in MP4 format.

Dual formats would also support users who prefer to view video in open formats -- even if the original file was uploaded in MP4 format. And keeping all videos in both formats will serve as an insurance policy, giving us the ability to discontinue support for MP4 in the future, if legal or technological circumstances change. To be clear, the intent of this project is not to diminish our commitment to open formats, but to provide an interim solution that can enable more people to view and contribute video content on our sites, as open formats become more prevalent.



Views in favor of MP4 support

Those who favor adoption of the MP4 video file format point to the educational value of video for helping users learn in the medium that best fits their needs. As online video usage keeps growing rapidly worldwide, videos are key to serving our educational mission and Wikimedia is now lagging far behind other sites in this field.

A video of a cheetah, captured in slow-motion at 1200 fps. The video was released on Vimeo and converted to OGV format before uploading to Commons.

Many topics covered on our sites could be better explained with video (e.g. soccer, dance, human movement, cooking, travel). For example, videos like the one at right can provide important new information and complement text articles effectively. And yet only 0.1% of our articles now have video on the largest of our projects, the English Wikipedia. The lack of quality video for most topics on our sites will become more of a problem as video production and sharing become more accessible via mobile devices and more users start to rely on this medium for their information needs on other sites.

The MP4 proponents say that one of the major reasons why there are so few videos on Wikimedia sites is that we do not support the widespread MP4 standard. Instead, we rely on the lesser-known Ogg Theora and WebM standards, whose user base is vastly outnumbered by the many users of MP4 around the world. As of this writing, about 150 million of our users are still unable to view open video files on their browsers. For mobile phones and tablets, there is no practical way to play Ogg or WebM videos on the very popular iPhone and iPad devices, and only some phones can play WebM videos.

By contrast, MP4 is installed by default on most mobile devices and desktop computers, typically including hardware support that is much more efficient than software solutions for video encoding and decoding. This hardware support is much needed for mobile devices, to insure longer battery life required for extended video playback or recording. For mobile users, this is a major benefit of MP4 versus free software solutions.

Moreover, the creation tools for transcoding video into those codecs are not available on mobile devices, which are a natural platform for creating videos. And the multitude of robust video capture, editing, and sharing tools to popular services such as YouTube and Vimeo raises user expectations considerably. Sadly, free/open standards have not kept up with the state of the art -- not even WebM, which has Google's full support.

Lastly, it is worth noting that the non-profit Mozilla Foundation began planning to incorporate MP4 into Firefox and most of their products in 2012, and is planning to complete it in 2014. However, most linux distributions will continue to distribute Firefox without MP4 support. The Mozilla community also cares deeply about open formats, but Mozilla decided to compromise based on practical concerns. Members of our own community have recommended MP4 support for years, in email discussions dating back to 2012.

Since we would continue to support open video formats as well, MP4 supporters view their recommendation as consistent with the Wikimedia Foundation's Guiding Principles, which state that "all material in our projects is available in free formats that do not require the user to install proprietary software": users would always retain the option to view or contribute files in open formats if they prefer, because all videos would be stored in dual formats (see note 4).

To sum up, MP4 proponents view video as important for serving our educational mission in a rapidly changing information landscape. They consider that MP4 support is essential for empowering our users to view, contribute and edit video to share free knowledge, even if this requires us to adapt our policies regarding the use of proprietary file formats. They recommend that we license this video standard at no cost (no royalties are due for free sites like ours), so we can support MP4 in addition to open formats.



Views against MP4 support

Those who oppose adoption of the MP4 video file format point to the free software objectives of the Wikimedia movement, which are a vital aspect of our mission (as recently affirmed by the Wikimedia Foundation board in Wikimedia Foundation's Guiding Principles). Those opposing MP4 adoption believe that in order for what we create to be truly free, the format that it is in also needs to be free, (else everyone viewing it would need to obtain a patent license in some form to be able to view it). Whatever effort we place in supporting video should be focused on free formats, so that our contributions back to the wider ecosystem encourage deeper adoption of free formats.

From that viewpoint, any software infrastructure in Wikimedia projects must adhere to community norms regarding intellectual property, patent status, licensing or encoding methods. Current community requirements are that free/open standards should be used at all times to encode and store video files on the servers that house our data, so that both our content and software can be redistributed without any restrictions. Proprietary video containers or codecs such as MP4 are not allowed on Wikimedia projects because they are patent-encumbered and their software cannot be re-licensed freely (though MP4 content can be freely re-licensed). We publish nearly all of the source code and configuration necessary to host our content under free licenses; supporting MP4 may mean making licensing-related compromises in the transparency of our video-related infrastructure. Furthermore, the licence arrangement will be secret (even though the FSF has made an older - but quite similar - version of the license available here). For that reason, opponents of MP4 support recommend that we continue to only support open and free license video formats on our sites -- which for now means limiting our use to Ogg Theora and WebM standards (some of the MP4 patents will not expire until 2028).

Some people have argued that recent events make the future for free formats look positive, and hence now is not the time to give up on them:

Nokia lost its patent claim in Germany, and Nokia was the only one not signing the agreement with Google.[1][clarification needed]. This helps ensure VP8 really is patent-unencumbered. Google worked on VP9, which is the high quality successor to VP8 (the codec currently used in WebM). It is a matter of months, not years, when this will be widely available. And this time most of the important hardware makers are on board. This means VP9 could be potentially decoded efficiently on cell phones, like how MP4 is currently.

Some community members have suggested that the Wikimedia Foundation is in a unique position to encourage a wider adoption of open video formats by requiring users to use these formats to access our content -- and helping make the formats better as a result. Because of the significant traffic to Wikimedia projects, the argument is that we can afford to make a stand on principle and encourage long-term adoption of free formats, even if it impacts the short-term quality of our user experience.

Some have also suggested that it may be possible to develop free/open video player software for platforms that don't support Theora/WebM. While alternative solutions would require a significant investment, additional software development could help improve the basic media experience if we do not go through with MP4 support, as outlined here by WMF software architect Brion Vibber.

Other issues raised include concerns that MP4 support may increase video contributions, which would require more community curation work (just looking at the thumbnail is not enough like it is with images); or concerns that hosting or bandwidth costs for this video content may require more foundation resources. More points such as these may come up during this RfC, and can be reviewed in the Comments section below.

To sum up, MP4 opponents consider our free software goals and ideals to be as important as our educational mission, at least as far as content is concerned. They view MP4 support as a fundamental shift in our values -- and a major setback for the open and free software movements. They are prepared to stick with the current status quo, even if this means that millions of users cannot easily view video content on our sites, or contribute it directly if their devices produce MP4. They also hope to encourage users to buy different hardware and/or install free software on their devices, to promote the open and free software movements.



Note

This Request for Comments is presented by the Wikimedia Foundation to seek community guidance on whether or not to support the MP4 video format on our sites. We invite comments from all users: readers, contributors, curators or editors on Wikimedia Commons, Wikipedia, or any other site that uses content from our free media repository.

The RfC was prepared by WMF product manager Fabrice Florin, in consultation with many community and team members. This discussion will be facilitated by WMF community liaison Keegan Peterzell. We expect that this RfC will be closed by an uninvolved Commons editor or administrator in February 2014. If you have any questions or suggestions about this RfC, please add a comment below or contact us directly.

There was an office hours chat on IRC on Thursday, January 16, at 19:00 UTC about this RFC. The logs of that chat are available at meta:IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-01-16.





Question for the community

Should we support the MP4 video file format, in addition to open video formats?

Please state your support for one of the options below -- and sign your name in the appropriate section.

For more information, review this Background page, the Comments below, or this RfC's Discussion page.

Note partial support is harder to implement than full or no support, because it requires a special infrastructure to hide files or disable source downloads.



Full MP4 support

I recommend that we support the MP4 file format to both view and contribute videos, in addition to open formats. All videos would be automatically stored in both formats, to provide the best user experience on any platform.





Partial MP4 support - Viewing only

I recommend that we support the MP4 file format, but only to view videos: users could not contribute MP4 files, only open standard files. All videos would be automatically stored in both formats, to provide the best user experience on any platform.

I support this option because I browse WP from a mobile device that only supports h264. There are oftentimes videos (and more frequently, audio) that I cannot play because my devices don't support them. I support keeping master files in free formats, because maybe someday 10 years from now we will have widely-supported free codecs, and Wikipedia should future-proof itself. But that day isn't today, and out here in the real world using only free formats for viewing only prevents users from access to WP content. 66.68.151.141 18:20, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Which device do you use? 78.35.224.41 14:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC) I support this option because we want the content te be most widely available. This is however one more case of having to deal with somebody else's problem (i.e., the lack of patent-free codec on mobile devices). Maybe a more constructive idea would be to transcode videos to h.264, but add a banner on one side saying something like “You are currently watching a video in a patent-encumbered format because your mobile dovice doesn't support anything else.” This would help raise awareness of the issue, and get people to, maybe, pressure their phone vendors to include these codecs. Better than only silently hiding the issue, IMO. --OlivierMehani ( talk ) 23:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I support this option - but only in that way, OlivierMehani described above. Users may see MP4, if their devices are not able to play free formats - but they have to be informed, that there is a problem with that video. Otherwise, I do really prefer the option: no propiretary MP4 in WP at all. Bgruen ( talk ) 21:03, 19 January 2014 (UTC) To avoid a flooding of videos it is ok that only a upload of free formats is possible. The viewing with mobile devices is important, so viewing mp4 is ok. But I also find the idea of OlivierMehani (see above) with bannered videos great! Its a good chance to stress the importance of free file formats! --RudolfHenze ( talk ) 08:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC)





Partial MP4 support - Contributions only

I recommend that we support the MP4 file format, but only to contribute videos: users could upload MP4 files, which would then be transcoded into open formats. Users could not view them in MP4 format -- and could only view these videos on devices that support open formats.

Partial support sounds like a good trade-off --Alessio Damato ( talk ) 21:50, 24 January 2014 (UTC) It's right there in the mission. MP4 is encumbered for reusers, and we can't make that not the case unless software patents suddenly get killed. We should, however, be able to ingest it - David Gerard ( talk ) 08:14, 16 January 2014 (UTC) If this can be done without using donor money to pay for patent licenses, that would be good. If upload support means WMF needs to buy a license, then no! While I can see the benefit of users uploading MP4 if it is possible within free licenses (see geni's post in the next section), I don't think video should be a WMF priority, so this support shouldnt be seen as a reason for the WMF to devote programmers to build this. The priority should be support for existing open file formats which are editable to provide educational 2D and 3D models, e.g. for Chemistry, Plotting, etc. John Vandenberg (chat) It is a good compromise between the fact that Wikimedia's projects have to use free format to publish its contents and the fact that a lot of the potential contributors are not able to encode their videos in an open format. Pamputt ( talk ) 10:38, 16 January 2014 (UTC) This seems the best option, giving all the benefits of keeping Commons open for all interested contributors. This should apply not just for MP4 video but any other non-open format that we can design tools to ingest. There is no need to "deal with the Devil", this is a win-win. As for devices that are designed to not support open formats, for goodness sake, forget them, they are complete and utter lemons that vanish within a year or two (just check the last 10 years of device development) and we should be vocal and persistent in presenting that point to the public and any large company that believes that Microsoft's model of product lock-in is still a viable long term cash cow. By the way, as I understand it, if the WMF designs and hosts tools to break proprietary formats and makes the video available to the public in an open standard, the only legal entity that would be sued would be the WMF, not the unpaid volunteers involved - how refreshing it would be if the WMF were to make a stand and take any legal risks here rather than plead plausible deniability and leave unpaid and uninsured volunteers to pay damages. --Fæ ( talk ) 10:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC) To me too this is the best compromise. It doesn't address the most important part: that it hassles our end-users a great deal, but I can't justify the difficulty it provides for re-use to find that acceptable. This is at least something. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk ) 11:12, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I want to stick as much as possible to free codecs and we do have good codecs in place. From that viewpoint I'd vode "no". But there is another perspective to it, taking the video initiatives a step further, from only storing flat files to a community producing videos. Here we have to deal with raw material, collaborative editing etc. There are many more challenges and one attempt for a solution would be a video editing server described more in details in this post: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-January/129671.html --Manuel Schneider(bla) 11:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Ideally, we would only support free formats, but given the domination of mp4 on the market and the difficulty of converting videos, we should allow users to upload mp4 videos. As to playing video, I think there is currently enough browser and device support to keep only free output.--Strainu ( talk ) 13:07, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I agree that the dominant file format means we need to be able to comprehend what is ingested. But it is not okay to ingest and spew using that file format if it means we are putting on someone else's intellectual property yoke. Commons' great benefit to the world is no-questions-asked reusability, and I don't want to see it compromised in this fashion, license freebie or otherwise. I'm with User:David Gerard on this. On the whole it is of far less importance to me as there is no guiding principal or idea that WMF is intended to be an *exclusive* repository of anything. Others do nothing but video, and that's great. I want there to be video, but it is not part of a grant vision to out-YouTube YouTube, or Vimeo, or any other huge site with billions of hours of video. User:Fuzheado is right - we lack the present toolset to be able to address such volumes of video, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.--BradPatrick ( talk ) 14:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I'm okay with this as a second choice, although since we will want to retain the originals in any case (so that we can re-encode them to better future formats), I don't see why we shouldn't also serve them to end-users.--ragesoss ( talk ) 16:14, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Permitting to upload videos as they are, without the need to convert them, will certainly boost the things up incredibly. Given that the average proficiency with such software is low, and that the creative drive (and even talent) occurs more often, we should be more welcoming, at least with this pretty universal codec. But as a part of upload process, the video is better to be converted to a free format (unless this will lead to quality loss), and stored only like that. (Question for the lawyers: is it possible to convert a video e.g. via toolserver.org? Will this necessitate buying a license for Wikimedia or not? Will incorporating such a tool as a part of the regular upload process necessitate it?) WRT viewing, WMF should certainly exercise its "unique position to encourage a wider adoption of open video formats": start talks with Microsoft, Apple etc. etc. and force them to include support for viewing such formats. Set up a meeting of Jimbo with Tim Cook, organise mass protests in Redmond, WA, anything. In comparison to developing our own software, this certainly would be more productive (and possibly easier). We can do it! YLSS ( talk ) 16:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I'd think a Wikipedia Mobile app for iOS that played Ogg/VP8/VP9 would do the job. Even more so if Apple forbids it for its codecs - David Gerard ( talk ) 17:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Once the content is uploaded, then it can be converted to a free format. This keeps patent-encumbered content away from Wikipedia, and makes ONLY the WMF a user of a patent-encumbered converter. It would avoid filling Wikipedia and commons itself with all forms of patented content. If that still is an issue, this scenario can be visited again. Victorgrigas ( talk ) 17:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Second choice, If there has to be a compromise, this is probably the best way to go. Put an mp4 converter on a separate server (wearing the proverbial clothes-peg) and keep it at arms-length from everything else, then store locally in free formats only. I also like the idea of a video-editing server as mentioned by Manuel Schneider. --Kim Bruning ( talk ) 17:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC) This is acceptable as a second choice as it will help us to gain content, but it still leaves us with the problem of a large fraction of users being unable to view it. Mr.Z-man ( talk ) 18:12, 16 January 2014 (UTC) It's the best way. And should not be limited to MP4, it should be possible to accept the import the most common formats and trancode them on the side of servers. --M0tty ( talk ) 19:46, 16 January 2014 (UTC) This seems the most pragmatic option, in my opinion. My background is probably relevant: I am a Wikipedia administrator (English) since 2003, an open source author (since <2000), and an expert (of sorts!) employed in the digital video area twice over the 2000/2001 and 2009/2010 periods. In the latter role I worked for most of the major device manufacturers including HTC, LG, Nokia, Samsung, and Sony Ericsson. In my professional understanding, the way the mobile device manufacturers work is that they just buy an SDK from chip suppliers when they are putting together their device design. They have no real control over CODEC implementation themselves, and often don't know the precise capabilities of their own devices in this area (re: bitrate before choppiness, etc.). IMHO it is in the internet and Wikipedia's mission's interest to put pressure on the chip suppliers to support accelerated processing of open CODECs. That should be longer term, concerted Wikimedia outreach type project for the tech staff, possibly in conjunction with Mozilla's FirefoxOS people who are now deploying devices to multiple markets. Accepting and transcoding content in non-free formats seems the most rational workaround while we're waiting for full support. This will encourage the soulless corporate members of the internet device and software ecosystem to err in the right direction. Pratyeka ( talk ) 21:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Freedom for uploader and freedom for watcher. --Palu ( talk ) 21:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC) If web browser support is the problem, work with the browser vendors to improve support. In the meantime automatic conversion would not be a bad idea. —Remember the dot (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC) It's fairly simple: Let the users upload everything, convert on the server if there is a problem with the format. There's nothing to loose. More formats will lead to more uploads. More uploads will create more pressure to support the free formats. --TMg 23:13, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I am comfortable with this compromise. Wikipedia first exposed me to OGG and I am grateful for that. -wbrenna36 23:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I support this only if transcoding can be done losslessly and without any cost to the Wikimedia Foundation. Anonymous-232 ( talk ) 01:24, 17 January 2014 (UTC) A sensible compromise, but ultimately doesn't address the issue with content being unavailable in many mobile devices. Second choice. Tito xd (?!?) 02:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC) This is a reasonable compromise as long as it does not incur any licensing costs for WMF. All videos will still be available in free and open formats while at the same time opening up the possibility for more contributors to upload video without having to transcode the videos themselves. --Hattmannen ( talk ) 02:31, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Best option. Support even if not lossless. Nicolas1981 ( talk ) 03:01, 17 January 2014 (UTC) WMF should not support the patenting of software ideas or companies that exist to exploit software patent portfolios. So, if WMF needs to make a deal with MPEG LA in order to transcode MP4 files, then I think they should choose not to do so. If WMF makes a business deal with MPEG LA, they will be lending credibility, legitimacy, and support to not only MPEG LA, but to patent trolls everywhere. Software-idea patents hurt many of us in the free software and free culture world (just look at the testimonies and statements at the USPTO round table events this past winter and spring and you can see clear evidence of this), and so on this issue, I think you should stand with the free software and free culture community and not support the patent troll industry. --Joshuagay ( talk ) 03:24, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Hi @Joshua, good to see you here. Thank you for the thoughtful statement. Do you know a goodlink to the USPTO events you mentioned? Also, could you clarify how this amounts to a vote for partial support (the section it's in),rather than an "oppose" vote (which is how it reads to me)? Is this along the lines of what @John V said above? -Pete F ( talk ) 17:36, 23 January 2014 (UTC) All right. --MZMcBride ( talk ) 04:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC) This is a good compromise - it would increase contributions while avoiding the issues of us using MP4 to distribute content. In the long run it would increase the use (and hopefully support) of patent-free video codecs as there would be more material around in those codecs that people would want to watch. Thanks. Mike Peel ( talk ) 06:50, 17 January 2014 (UTC) I think this strikes a good balance like John Vandenberg above insightfully stated "If this can be done without using donor money to pay for patent licenses, that would be good. If upload support means WMF needs to buy a license, then no!" If it cannot be done without buying a license, then no MP4 support, we should certainly not fund those MPEG LA racketeers. Palosirkka ( talk ) 07:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Per John Vandenberg --Tobias ( talk ) 08:27, 17 January 2014 (UTC) WMF's Projects take proprietary knowledge and transcode it into freely usable knowledge. This is what we do. And we do it successfully --g ( talk ) 09:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Eventually the most pragmatic way. It lowers the hurdle to insert videos while keeping Wikipedia intact. Also other forms of adaption can be made. If this solution is not available or requires signing of any kind of NDA, I oppose implementation at all. Raffzahn ( talk ) 12:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC) With the SOPA blackout we showed willingness to accept short term inconvenience to our users in order to support what we perceive to be their long term interests. Now, who the hell are we to decide their interests? Well, we're 'experts' in this field and must have the courage of our convictions to promote what we perceive as right - just as we hope that the experts in various other fields (medical, legal, mechanical engineering) are looking out for our interests in those fields. In this case, the user inconvenience (lack of support for unencumbered formats) is the fault of other organizations. We can choose to harm ourselves somewhat to make up for the failings of those other organizations, or we can choose to make a stand. I do support accepting uploads in various encumbered formats as long as it's not too harmful (i.e. costly / incovenient). Open4D ( talk ) 13:11, 17 January 2014 (UTC) That's by far the best idea, I think. It solves the problem of missing contributions without the negative consequences of providing videos in a non-free format. ToBeFree ( talk ) 15:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC) This, I feel, is the right balance between usability and open standards, with a mind to the future of the mobile web. Forpeterssake ( talk ) 16:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC) 2nd choice, if only so that we actually have some video by 2028 when the patent runs out. Smallbones ( talk ) 00:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC) (Moved from above.) 1st choice. We should make our ingest tools as effective as possible; we should ingest anything that we can quickly convert to WebM. Supporting free, patent-unencumbered formats is important for the spread of free knowledge: so is accepting any and all educational files released under a free license. We should invest in both every year. This means we should support and invest in the development of the WebM toolchain, including players, editors, and transcoding tools. We have not done much to support transcoding tools to date. The initial implementation looks promising. I can see providing a series of options for users who can't play free formats: a link to install a player, a link to a third-party converter, or a link to other formats that we host. But we should not make it easy for readers to use WebM-incompatible browsers -- and this should certainly never be done transparently. I'd like to see better data on usage and browser limitations in order to identify popular combinations that literally cannot play WebM or Ogg. Then we can develop alternatives for them. Unfortunately, over half of the opposition to enabling MP4 uploads and transcoding are related to some misunderstanding about what that would entail: whether we could do this without compromising the free-license nature of everything we show to readers. Please make this simple for the community so that we can do away with the current creation bottleneck. -- SJ + We will be able to open these files after the patent term expires. And now this format is more convenient for uploading by contributors. — putnik 11:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC) FFmpeg is a good solution to convert mp4 to webm and can be processed by wikimedia foundation. Dacoucou ( talk ) 15:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC) First choice, if and only if no WMF money would be going to a software patent holder with implementation. WMF should not be supporting software patents, exactly the opposite. If WMF funds would be going toward MPEG-LA, or they can't say whether that would happen or not due to secrecy, consider this an oppose. Seraphimblade ( talk ) 16:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC) What if WMV (windows media video) was the largest used video format? This was the case a few years ago and now it's not supported at all in the new devices (mobiles) to access Wikipedia. The most widely used format changes from year to year. If wikimedia chooses mp4 now, for sure the largest supported format will be different in 3 years (Google video format?). The storage format should be an open one with best quality and longest support. We should push its support on platforms. (Provide plugins or apps if possible if needed to read it) --Eon2004 ( talk ) 17:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC) With WP's current size and visibility, we have a great opportunity to promote free formats for all on the Internet by rejecting MP4. WP should not compromise with non-free codecs, and no material in such codecs should be part of the corpus. I'd vote no for these reasons (and several more), but nothing major prevents us from providing tools to help the user convert uploaded material to free formats, a little bit like using a proprietary software to produce or browse WP content: that doesn't affect the content, but eases the life of the contributor. --Witoki ( talk ) 01:46, 19 January 2014 (UTC) I don't think there is an ethical issue to let users upload mp4. It could be nice to put a link to firefox if the browser doesn't read WebM. actually against, but TMg had a better idea above ;) --Don-kun ( talk ) 11:43, 20 January 2014 (UTC) I strongly oppose MP4 as a viewing format, but I think this is the best solution. The end-user should not be penalized by vendors bad choices for their camera and other devices. The main storage of a media should be in the best quality possible under a truly open format --Jérémie Bouillon ( talk ) 01:45, 21 January 2014 (UTC) I "voted" no MP4 support. I would consider this option if it was developed and explained, but in this current RFC which gives too little info about the problems of MP4, the only safe option is to oppose the proposal. One question is what to do with the MP4 videos after conversion: One part of me says they would have to be deleted after conversion, to avoid them becoming an argument for wider MP4 usage later.

Another part of me says it would be ok for them to be stored under the promise that they would not be used for anything other than conversion until the MP4 patents expire (that could be 2028).

Or maybe the only acceptable way for this to work is for the conversion to be an independent web service, with no organisational connection to WMF and no MP4 touching WMF's servers. That last solution has the disadvantage of being out of the control of WMF but has the added advantage that this service could be part of a new campaign to increase the amount of WebM video. Gronky ( talk ) 03:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC) Transcoding involves loss of quality. If the original video is MP4 it should also be archived as an MP4-file such that we can rely on that one if there are any problems with conversions, if we want to support a new format etc. (multiple reencoding is bad). It is also a matter of authenticity of the source. However, we should not support the MP4-lobby by providing the videos in MP4. --Chricho ( talk ) 23:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC) It may be convenient to be able to upload content in restricted formats like MP4 (and then transcode them), as those are usually produced by the available hardware, but for viewing, I strongly support *only* free and open formats. We harm the open web if we endorse restricted formats. (Nicubunu ( talk ) 19:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)) As long as the conversion was done as part of the upload and we weren't storing anything in MP4 WereSpielChequers ( talk ) 11:06, 23 January 2014 (UTC) This would (1) allow increased numbers of video contributions, (2) increase the amount of freely-available and open-licensed video on the Internet, and (3) not compromise our commitment to hosting/serving information only in free formats. So it seems to me it's a win-win-win situation. Waldir talk 15:29, 23 January 2014 (UTC) I oppose MP4 as a viewing format; however, I support it as an upload format as long as it doesn't cost a lot for re-encoding and possible licensing. If this is not possible, I would oppose MP4 entirely. Providing video in MP4 will only prolong its dominance. Also, since VP9 is getting widespread hardward support, viewing it should not be as problematic in the future. --Article editor ( talk ) 01:45, 24 January 2014 (UTC) Fighting users is very difficult, and to make videos successful on Wikimedia, it has to be easy to upload them for users. Fighting with webbrowers to support open codecs, however, is "sorta easier", all the more so if video is successful on Wikimedia, thus the need for making it easy to users. I believe it's one of the potential strengths of wikimedia to be used to promote open standards. Samuelthibault ( talk ) 10:22 24 January 2014 (UTC) Esperanto: Mi forte kontraŭas fermitajn dosierformojn kiel montro-formojn sed subtenas ilin kiel alŝut-formon. Tio estas kompromiso, kiun mi ne ŝatas sed povas vivi kn ĝi. Per Samuelthibault, Waldir, Remember the dot kaj aserto de Gronky "I'm against the sowing of oats or caring for the field, but I support having a great harvest next year". Nuntempe Vikimedio malfacile povas puŝi al evoluigistoj de foliumiloj por ebligi montron de 40.000 videoj. Se ni havos multe pliajn (mi esperas ke per ebligi alŝutadon de neliberaj formoj tio okazos) ni havos multe pli fortan situacion. Sekve, ni helpos al adopto de liberaj dosierformoj kaj ne plu bezonos solvadi tiajn problemojn. Se la kosto por Vikimedio estus konsirderita tro granda, mi subtenas neniun subtenon por neliberaj formoj. --KuboF ( talk ) 15:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC) English: Strongly opposing to non-free formats to be viewing formats but supporting them to be upload formats. This is compromise which I don't like but can live with it. Per Samuelthibault, Waldir, Remember the dot and statement of Gronky "I'm against the sowing of oats or caring for the field, but I support having a great harvest next year". Now Wikiemdia with problems can push to browsers deveopers to add upport to view 40.000 videos. If we will have much more videos (I hope we do after supporting non-free formats to upload) our situation would be much stronger. So, we will help to adopt free formats as standards and we will have no more such problems like this one. If cost for Wikimedia will be considered too hight, I support no support to non-free formats. Support only for useful upload (I want to upload external freely licensed mp4 videos more easily). Strong oppose to all other mp4 uses because of "Why now?" argument. -- TarzanASG +1 21:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC) Do not try to make love with software patent holders! videolan in this field would really be a nice idea. --Pristurus ( talk ) 00:17, 2 February 2014 (UTC) Support, allows easier uploads without supporting patent polluted standards Oxyman ( talk ) 20:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC) Support even if not lossless. --Avenue ( talk ) 12:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)





Neutral

I am not sure which of the other options to pick.

Not clear to me why we should jump on the aging mp4 ship while it's sinking: isn't WebM expanding? As outlined in the introduction, the two most important desktop browsers support it (if one uses Internet Explorer one can't expect internet to work; VisualEditor doesn't work either); encoding tools are nice but does anyone really need them now that you can just download in WebM from YouTube? --Nemo 15:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC) As user I like to upload and get the videos as simple as possible and independent of the client. MP4 always works fine, so I like it. On the other hand Commons is a well known website (for open licences models) with a wide range and should not support formats with licence problems. --Slick ( talk ) 10:58, 17 January 2014 (UTC) As technology grows, MP4 is quite a popular format and is used in many videos, I think implementing the MP4 video format is a great idea, however with the cost for using the MP4 technology will not be free and will cost some significant funds. -- ///Euro Car GT 22:48, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Sorry I could not write in English. Videolarda vandalizme açık ve bunun kontrolü çok zor olacaktır. Özellikle İngilizce dilinde olmayan videoların kontrolünde sorunlar yaşanabilir. Fakat başka bir portal (örneğin; VikiVideo) gibi bir videolu eğitim portalı oluşturulabilir. (English google translate: Video vandalism in public and it will be very difficult to control. Especially in the control of the video is not in English language problems can occur. But another portal (eg vikivideo) can be created as a video training portal.) Thanks.--i.е. v-mail 02:38, 18 January 2014 (UTC) If your problem is the mobile/pad support, why can't your application specifically decode the open-source videos? If you had the codec in your mobile app, and that you invite mobile visitors to install it, you solve your problem. Only my suggestion, Oppose for Wikimedia Commons. However, Support for local wiki files which can allow m:Non-free contents. As some mpeg format files are too hard to transfer to ogg format. (AFAIK I'm using 快播/Kuaibo/QVOD Player to transfer some, but my memory is only 4G RAM).--Liuxinyu970226 ( talk ) 04:53, 27 January 2014 (UTC) I think that Maybe we can support upload the MP4 source , convert it to save a free encoding file to (like MP4->ogg),and not save the source.So we can let the user upload the video from the device which use the MP4 format and satisfy our misson which is for free copyright.--Cwek ( talk ) 08:09, 29 January 2014 (UTC)





No MP4 support

I oppose any form of support for the MP4 file format.





Other proposals

If you have other proposed solutions, please describe them briefly in separate sub-sections here, so others can review them -- and support them if they wish.

The real conversation is about Wikimedia culture

The real issue here is not technical, and so I see this RFC as pointless. The real RFC should be: do we want to change the entire culture of the Wikimedia ecosystem to be video centric and not text centric? The success of the Foundation has arguably been due to its focus on text, and making it easy to upload video is going to represent a HUGE cultural and content shift. Isn't that what we should be talking about?! --Alterego (talk) 01:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not massively hard, and as a multimedia (WIKIMEDIA COMMONS) portal, making it easier is a good thing. Wikimedia should in no way try to replicate the Internet Archive's growing audio and video archives - but video is definitely useful on Wikipedia articles at a minimum. The ability to support the dominant (and most widely viewable) formats would improve Wikimedia, not detract. Do I think every single Wikipedia page should have a 1080p video of someone reading the article with PowerPoint slideshow playing along side? Of course not. As it stands now, the videos are generally good additions. Making that more accessible (to the majority of web users out there who do *NOT* use open-format-capable web browsers - IE users and Safari Mobile users, still the dominant platforms on PCs and mobile devices, respectively, in terms of web traffic share,) is a good thing. But you are correct, this is about Wikimedia culture. Do we want WIkimedia culture to be primarily targeted at the "tech elite" who are firmly in favor of openness, or do we want the culture to be targeted at the population of the world as a whole? I am in favor of Wikimedia being targeted at the population of the world as a whole - which means more openness. And not "free as in speech" openness, but "more accessible to everyone" openness. When that can be done via free and open means, great, when not... Well, it's better than snubbing them. Ehurtley ( talk ) 09:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC) (A long time Wikipedia user, occasional editor - who stopped bothering because of the tech elite culture vibe that has long permeated Wikimedia behind the scenes.

H.264 Baseline only

This seems an obvious compromise that hasn't been suggested yet.

H.264 baseline profile was originally promised to be royalty free by MPEG. Apple and others attempted to have it made royalty free during the debate over HTML5 videos. They're trying again with MPEG right now under the name WVC (web video codec). Even if they fail I believe the patents will expire very slightly sooner than the full codec.

It has lower requirements and so can be played on more devices and low-end PCs, which fits with the argument for using it.

Obviously ingest would accept the full codec (and prefer free formats) but for viewing could be transcoded to baseline.





Full support for a limited known period

I see that the support for the MP4 file format should be temporary and for a known period. In the meantime, the foundation and the tech-savvy community should pave a better infrastructure and medium for the support of open-source video editing and conversion tools. This could be done by supporting existing projects such as Blender and Avidemux; and may be push for having them ported to the mobile platform by any means possible. It is stated in the support section that education comes over open-source support, but many educational and academic organizations run on tight budgets and resolve many budget considerations by moving form proprietary to open-source software. In addition, the EU has a strong open-source movement for a myriad of reasons and I see that all of these factors should be utilized to facilitate the support of open formats. Asaifm ( talk ) 09:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

A global video converter ?

What about a converter for any file format towards lightest (“.flv”, I believe) which would be available on the main 3 OS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.218.112.198 (talk • contribs)

i would support having a tool on labs where you upload a video (in any format) it gets converted on labs and then uploaded with oAuth. Bawolff ( talk ) 16:38, 16 January 2014 (UTC) If you want that to be able to import MP4-family file formats, that'd require getting the same MPEG-LA patent license as would be required to do it on WMF's existing media transcode servers. --brion ( talk ) 17:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC) It's a compromise I could live with (hence my first preference being the "ingest" option, above); it would make contribution easy from a phone, and wouldn't endanger reusers. @Bawolff: you want to add "second option" on ingestion? - David Gerard ( talk ) 17:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Yes, its a compromise, that allows segregating the patent code to be "unofficial", maintaining moral purity of the official site. I Guess there's actually 3 possible ingest only options - Ingest in the same way we ingest DjVu: The file gets stored on the server and can be retrieved, but 99% of the time people only look at the "thumbnails" (aka "transcodes") which are in a different format; Convert on ingest: Someone uploads, it gets converted, when they go to the file page its File:MyFile.webm, and there is no indication that they ever uploaded an mp4 in the first place, and a third option of having the converter off-site (Either tool labs, or totally off Wikimedia infrastructure) where people can upload a video, and it gets converted in a place totally far away from our real site. Bawolff ( talk ) 20:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

) 16:38, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I would prefer having better support for a third-party desktop solution that was not hosted on WMF infrastructure at all, and pointing to that. Whether "support" means throwing community weight behind it, or proposing a grant to a third party, I'm not sure, but I don't think hosting a conversion tool on WMF servers is the solution here, because it basically presents the same issues as accepting MP4 uploads outright. --MarkTraceur ( talk ) 17:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I agree! Videos are media formats that are resource hungry. And the user who is uploading videos would need to make sure that the quality of their uploaded video is not compromised by online conversion. Asaifm ( talk ) 20:07, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

) 17:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC) I don't know about the legalities and technicalities of this but I would like it to be easier to upload free file format videos to Commons, some kind of converter tool would be the ideal solution, even if it meant havong to suffer a loss of quality Oxyman ( talk ) 23:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

) 23:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC) We have built, supported and integrated as easy as possible video converters. Firefogg.org for example was built and integreated with the upload wizard at one point. There many external services and possible toolchains for video conversion ( youtube converts to webm for example ) , but the whole point is that it ~has~ to be as seamless as possible, not that "in theory someone could figure it out". Not to mention, distributing or promoting client side encoders that in all likelihood don't pay royalties is much more of a violation of royalty bearing properties of h.264 then just encoding it server side in the first place. Almost all the free tools for decode h.264 and encode webm don't pay royalties and therefore putting users in technical violation of h.264 licenses. Instead WMF could be a responsible institution and managing legal workflows for interoperability with the formats that everyones devices uses and can legally upload. -- Mdale ( talk ) 15:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC) For me, the best way to get more videos in commons is that the uploader automatically converts the video from MP4 (the most used by, for instance, mobile phones) into .ogg or any other free alternative. If the android to commons oficial tool did automatically that conversion (and even better, resizing if the file has more than 100mb) I believe that more people would upload files. Fort instance, I have useful video files in my phone but I have to upload them slowly because I need a lot of time send to computer, then to firefogg and for last, uploading). If the uploading tool automatically converted video, everything would be more easy.--Coentor ( talk ) 12:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

) 15:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

MPEG-1

I propose that w:MPEG-1 be added as a supported format. It works on Safari on OSX out of the box, Microsoft Windows and OSX support it out of the box, most major video editors support it, and for many parts of the world it is patent free, because the standard came out in 1993, which is over 20 years ago. In the US, I believe it becomes patent free next year in 2015 when the last MP3 (MPEG-1 layer 3 audio) patents expire. I would propose that it be allowed as an uploading format, and that it be provided as a extra option for viewing. Since it is less efficient than Theora and Webm, possibly downloads should be transcoded to smaller height and width sizes to decrease extra bandwidth. Jrincayc ( talk ) 03:07, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

While I think supporting the more modern formats is best - this is a good option, as well. OS X and Windows both support it out of the box - although it does miss on iOS and Windows Mobile (for which MP4 is the best option.) Ehurtley ( talk ) 09:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC) This does not address the contribution problem. --Dschwen ( talk ) 22:03, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Support If it's true MPEG-1 is patent-free (or will be soon), I agree we should consider this when this it's confirmed. With HTML5, we can put the best available open and royalty-free standard (e.g. WebM) first, then let it fallback to alternates like MPEG-1. Superm401 - Talk 21:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC) (If that's true) I don't know if MPEG-1 is better than MP4 for the users of limited web browsers and smartphones, but I think there is some (how much) old content in MPEG-1 that could benefit from not having been converted additionally. As for audio, I think some organization or website suggested using MPEG-1 layer 2 for it (apparently its patents have expired). So:

Is it free? Is it useful for viewing? Is it useful for contributing? In what container formats can be it used (we've had wrong data put in an Ogg container; see also Commons:MIME type statistics/Unusual types)? --AVRS ( talk ) 21:50, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Is it free? Good question, it came out in 1993 (with a public near complete draft in 1991) so for countries where there is a hard deadline after prior art of 20 years, it is free. For the US, there was no such limit at the time, so there are still patents on MPEG-1 layer 3 audio, and there might be patents on the rest. If the patents are only on MPEG-1 layer 3 audio, then MPEG-1 layer 2 audio could be used instead. Is it useful for viewing? Yes, it is supported out of the box on OSX Safari. However, it does not solve the IOS problem, but since Apple already supports MPEG-1 on OSX, they might be more willing to support MPEG-1 on IOS than Theora or Webm. Is it useful for contributing? Good question, older software supported MPEG-1, but newer software that I see that supports MPEG-1 seems to already either support Webm or Theora or not support MPEG-1 as well. In what container formats can it be used? It can be used in the MPEG-1 container format, described in ISO 11172-1. Jrincayc ( talk ) 14:13, 19 January 2014 (UTC) Oppose MPEG-1 is hoplesly outdated. It has poor compression, does not support HD and no camera younger then 10 years supports it. Edokter ( talk ) — I am talking mostly about viewing. If mobile users want to spare battery so much they can't view WebM, non-HD video should be enough for them. --AVRS ( talk ) 14:04, 18 January 2014 (UTC) Edokter, I agree with you on the poor compression. While MPEG-1 contrained parameters (ISO 11172-2 1993 0.1.1) are 768x576, those are not a requirement of the spec, and the sequence header (ISO 11172-2 1993 2.4.2.3) allows horizontal_size and vertical_size to be up to 4092, so things like 4k ultra high definition television (3840 x 2160) would be possible in MPEG-1 video. (If there is some other constraint on HD, please explain further.) As for compression size, my opinion is that we could just aim for having the same size files as Theora or VP8, either by lowering the quality or by lowering the resolution, and it will generally be usable, but either the resolution will be decreased or the compression artifacts will be more visible than in the Theora or VP8 file. Jrincayc ( talk ) 14:13, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's technically viable. Using MPEG-1 might consume too much disk space to be affordable. There needs to be a reasonably good compression/quality ratio. 124.184.83.74 09:42, 19 January 2014 (UTC) I do not think that disk space is an issue nowadays. Adding additional disk space should never be a problem for the WMF, it seems to me. I assume that the cost of disk space compared to other expenses is negligible. If MPEG-1 is useful for viewing as a widely supported, though outdated format, and if it's really free by 2015, I don't see why we shouldn't add it as a viewing option in 2015. Gestumblindi ( talk ) 17:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Motion JPEG and other free formats upload

Wikimedia should allow uploading in pretty much any free format (such as the ones that gstreamer good plugins support ) that can be transcoded into ogg theora or webm. This would include motion jpeg, which some cameras (such as for example http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/a/finepix_ax650/specifications/ ) support. Motion JPEG is very poor so far as compression goes, so it shouldn't be served for download, but we should at least make it easier for people to upload other free formats besides Ogg and Webm. Jrincayc (talk) 13:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

+1 -Pete F ( talk ) 17:35, 28 January 2014 (UTC) +1 see also [1] Mirabilos ( talk ) 17:40, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Youtube

VP9 might be around the corner and the demise of MP4 might be too. To me this whole thing is about going with the times on video. For most people video equals either Youtube, streaming or shaky phone videos they recorded themselves. A (limited) WMF Youtube presence could ensure quantity (user base) as well as quality content (like/dislike and suggestions for improvement) is submitted to wikipedia. Seeing 'wikipedia has shared a video' would much more likely prompt me to contribute some time then maybe seeing a 'would you like to review a video' while looking something up would. To preserve the WMF no-ad policy the ad proceeds could go to another FOSS project if ads can't be disabled altogether and if a WMF channel is even needed. All significant OS's would be supported through either an app or a browser. --nachtkap 3:00, 17 January 2014

IIRC, Youtube has a VP9-only policy for 4k video posts. Given this might encourage takeup of VP9 codecs, at least meaning that all browsers and content providers suddenly have a real reason to support the codec, WMF might be better advised to pursue this direction instead of h264 and the controversy surrounding it.

If Wikimedia would support MP4, there are other changes that would be appropriate:

As others pointed out, Wikimedia adopting MP4 is a huge marketing for MPEG-LA, probably the best marketing possible for them. Doing so is not neutral and is more on the interest of MPEG-LA than on the interest of Wiki users. If Wikimedia decides to support companies or products (like encodings), it should:

1. Change its founding principles. To provide for free content in locked formats is not to provide free content;

2. Warn users that the founding principles might change before receiving their donations or contributions;

3. Change its financing strategy. It makes no sense to promote patented things for free. To provide for free content while advertising is the business model of Google (for example) and it is a successful business model. But it would be immoral to continue asking users for donations while marketing for products or companies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zedaroca (talk • contribs)

Wikimedia video is disabled for mobile even though they CAN use it. Change that first.

Viewing this page on mobile firefox, the video on this page has been completely replaced by a still image. My device can play the video. Every smart phone user has the ability to download a video file and share it from their device. Yet the Wikimedia software has completely disabed my access to the video. If mobile video is important, hiding its existence from mobile users should be changed long before using patent encumbered formats. --Ian Kelling (talk) 14:24, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I've no ogg-incompatible devices, so I haven't seen what you see, but does MediaWiki at least tell you that there is a video? And does it inform you of free software browsers which can display it (I know, ironic, given that your browser would be in that list)? Or how to download a free software codec or whatever to make your browser capable? If not, then that should be done too. Gronky ( talk ) 12:51, 20 January 2014 (UTC) If the caption did not mention that it was a video, there would be no indication that it was a video at all. I agree with you. --Ian Kelling ( talk ) 12:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC) It used to work just fine; changes to TimedMediaHandler might have changed that. --brion ( talk ) 21:15, 21 January 2014 (UTC)





Do you have comments or questions about this RFC? If so, we invite you to add new topics below. We'd love to hear from you!

Be sure to sign all your comments and/or responses below. Please remain civil and respectful of participants with views other than your own.

For comments tangentially related to this RFC, please participate on this discussion page.

Will the videos encoded in the MP4 format still be available for commercial usage? And will we have to have another RFC in 2016 if/when they start charging fees about considering ditching the format again? TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 02:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

From my understanding, use of MP4 would only be for use/sharing from hosting based on Wikimedia. It would not be for download or commercial re-use. Those files would be concurrently available in OGG or WebM for such use. This would be simply for uploading or viewing; the Wikimedia Foundation would develop the resources to provide OGG and/or WebM file with the upload of an MP4 format video to fulfill commercial re-use under CC-BY-SA. Fabrice, correct? Keegan (WMF) ( talk ) 08:02, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Hello TeleComNasSprVen, thanks for your questions. Redistribution of videos encoded in the MP4 format on our sites would be subject to the license terms specified by their authors/uploaders -- typically CC-BY-SA-3.0, which authorizes commercial use (previous wording was incorrect: would make commercial usage unlikely in most cases - see clarification below). I hope this answers your first question. Regarding your second question, in the event that MPEG-LA were to start charging fees in 2016, the foundation would review proposed terms to determine whether or not another RFC is required: if the fees were very low and overall terms remained the same, another RFC may not be necessary. But we would certainly update the community on our findings through regular channels in any case. Fabrice Florin (WMF) ( talk ) 09:05, 16 January 2014 (UTC) @Fabrice Florin "subject to the license terms specified by their authors" ... "CC-BY-SA-3.0" ... "would make commercial usage unlikely" euh.. Are you saying that our material is not used for commercial usage ? I hope you added a word too many here. TheDJ ( talk ) 09:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Hi TheDJ, good catch! After checking this with our legal counsel, I can now confirm that commercial usage of MP4 files is indeed authorized under the terms of CC-BY-SA. To avoid any confusion, I have corrected my statement above and struck out my incorrect wording. Sorry about this. Fabrice Florin (WMF) ( talk ) 21:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC) FYI Commercial entities object to the CC by-sa license because any reuse/remix must also be released under a CC by-sa license. (ie if Disney wanted to make a movie of the novel I release under a CC by-sa license, Disney would have to release its movie under a CC by-sa license. Never happen.) Laurelrusswurm ( talk ) 07:32, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

It's already looking as if this might pass and in that case, I'd like to see a promise by the Foundation that it would with immediate effect pull all support for MP4 file format, in the case where users of the file format are ever sued by MPEG-LA for a usage that would be within our definition of Free and open (re)usage for material that is licensed in the spirit of CC-by-sa-3 (so not including non-free material). So basically a community contract that (regardless of what any contract with them) would express that if MPEG-LA comes after anyone (in the world) for a type of usage that is explicitly permitted by OUR license, we stop using mp4. Thereby effectively we say that we can only support them as long as MPEG-LA treats other users in the same way as us (no matter if they have a contract or not). So if a commercial company downloads an original mp4 version CC-BY-SA-3.0 licensed video from a video website and uses it in a commercial movie and gets sued, then it's EOL of our usage of mp4. Regardless of wether that site was commons or the next vimeo. "We recognize that you have granted us the license, but if you deny anyone else the same rights (contract or not), we can no longer use it." And that point that Geni points out should also somehow be covered in case we allow uploading in mp4. "The Foundation does not recognize patent based limitations on content trough the actions of production, (re)usage, distribution and sale." (we would only recognize the patents on the process of encoding and decoding basically: in my opinion already going way too far). TheDJ (talk) 10:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I would be extremely uncomfortable if this RFC, which potentially undermines a fundamental principle and ethical value of Wikimedia Commons, were to be closed with the presumption that a simple majority for one out of several options given was sufficient evidence of consensus. I note that this RFC has been structured in such a way as to diffuse votes against the proposal into multiple options, I believe a more coherent RFC would have been "Do we make this change to our supported formats policy or not?"

I propose that this RFC is only considered successful if a meaningful super-majority, when compared to the total number of all votes cast, were to be reached. In line with the ratios we use for other votes (such as when supporting the appointment of new administrators), I recommend we apply a consensus at 75% of all votes for an option to change the status quo to be considered adequately supported. --Fæ (talk) 13:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

The structure of this RFC is exceedingly problematic, as are the attempts from proponents of the motion to enforce the problematic structure - David Gerard ( talk ) 15:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Fae & David. It might be worthwhile to see a discussion more directly focused on the "upload only" variant. This option seems worthwhile, but perhaps complex in both implementation and implications. Right now I think it's not getting so much attention, because the main proposal is so controversial. -Pete F ( talk ) 17:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia have a major position in this sector! So he can force people to go through to open format for video After, constructors will put open format in technicals objects, its a dynamic!! people will do effort to download plugins to read video!!

It seems silly to raise this question in the context of multiple readily available conversion tools which, as far as I can understand, don't involve quality loss. Gryllida (talk) 12:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's not the case - unlike audio, as far as I know almost no-one anywhere uses lossless video at all, and all conversions go from a lossy format to another lossy format. Some lossy formats can be very high quality indeed ... - David Gerard ( talk ) 14:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

+1 David, and the availability of even lossy conversion tools is no help for the millions of mobile users we'd like to reach. The will not get hardware accelerated power efficient playback without WMF serving MP4, and they will not be able to contribute video (forget about transcoding on the phone!). It really is a simple question, do we want to enable the over one billion people with cameras in their pockets to contribute video, or do we want zero of those people to contribute. --Dschwen ( talk ) 14:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC) "they will not be able to contribute video (forget about transcoding on the phone!)" - wrong, solutions are available -- Smial ( talk ) 23:35, 17 January 2014 (UTC) This is a an unrealistic geek answer. You might just as well have suggested that every contributor roots their phone to add webm support. Rather than getting it free and centralized you are shifting the burden to the user, who has to pay and install an extra app. This completely misses the point of providing a lower barrier. --Dschwen ( talk ) 15:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC) Minor correction, there is no assumption that transcoding has to be done on the phone in order to enable an MP4 upload but then present it as an open format video. This RFC is confusing (as shown by some voting in the wrong sections based on their comments) as this is not a choice of do it, or don't do it. --Fæ ( talk ) 15:04, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Yes, good point Fae, there is the upload only option. But WMF would then have higherquality MP4 assets. What should they do with those? Delete them, or just not make them available to billions of mobile users? Sure one could demand open format player solutions. But those have to be developed, they have to be deployed to billions of phones, and they currently do not have hardware support. We could wait until they do, but who knows how long that would take. And in the mean time the boat that we already missed on Video is sailing further and further, and our game of catchup will get harder and harder. --Dschwen ( talk ) 15:10, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Easy, make the OGV available on Commons and provide a link to the MP4 version on a partner site with lower ethics constraints than us, such as Google, Vimeo, Youtube or Flickr - whichever is prepared to clearly support the free reuse CC licences that we love and maybe pay back a huge pile of cash to the movement so we can pay for better platform support for open standards (hey, the cash does not even have to go to the WMF, let's set up an independent thematic organization for Commons with committed values of open knowledge). Hell, we could even auto-redirect viewers from these platforms/OSes to an independent host site if we are eager to sell our open knowledge souls and get in bed with the devil. --Fæ ( talk ) 15:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC) archive.org is such a partner (with less constraints). You can upload anything there, including unedited raw video, and get a nice ogv out of it, with very smart conversion settings. --Nemo 18:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Yeah, or Wikimedia could incorporate a black-ops daughter corporation to do this "dirty work", which is like legally totally separate and not connected at all... on paper. Anyway this feels disingenuous to me. Either you make video available to the users or you don't. Offloading it to a third party so you can keep the appearance of a clean slate, and make users jump through another hoop, is not honest. Either you enable access to video viewing and contribution or you don't if you enable it then just do it yourself and stand by the decision. --Dschwen ( talk ) 18:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I give my unpaid time as a volunteer on this project to help deliver good outcomes for open knowledge in the long term (especially for my interest in GLAMs and LGBT culture). I am not here to ensure that the Wikimedia Commons website achieves a particular ranking on Alexa, or that the Wikimedia Foundation can leverage brand value from my uploads on this project. If another website does a better ethical job delivering open knowledge for global public benefit, then I suspect we would rapidly loose unpaid volunteers in preference for it; including me. Of course if we have (more) paid volunteers, that's a different ball game. --Fæ ( talk ) 14:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Fae, could you explain why you brought up achieving a particular ranking on Alexa and how the Wikimedia Foundation can leverage brand value? I don't understand what the connection to tis RfC is. --Dschwen ( talk ) 17:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The list in the beginning (expressing a view in favor of MP4 support, but not marked as such) claims that you need special tools to convert videos to free formats, and that the tools are not widely used in some community. If I understand correctly, VLC is a popular media player. Help:Converting_video#VLC_media_player says its converter has a quality issue related to what configuration it accepts — how about collaborating with the developers of VLC to improve the converter (maybe just add two UI controls)? --AVRS ( talk ) 21:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

David Gerard Dschwen Fæ Nemo AVRSThe original proposal appears to lack details on the difficulty of converting from MP4. Granted you're reasonably familiar with the subject, You could try to fill in the blank by linking to relevant documentation and writing an executive summary, such as in a subsection here. Gryllida 02:44, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

@Gryllida:, this is a bit of a tricky question. You want me to discuss what's not there :-)? Well I've made an effort last night and uploaded a bunch of my videos. As I feel comfortable with the Linux command line I was able to find a suitable set of parameters for the avconv program (just took me half an hour of trial an error and googling). This solution is ok for me, but it is nonetheless an extra step I have to take. If you are ok with typing commands like

avconv -i $file -y -acodec libvorbis -aq 5 -ac 2 -qmax 30 -threads 8 ${file/.mov/}.webm

then that's good for you. Keep in mind that I can only offer a very specific experience. I don't need a fancy gui too for transcoding, but I did not want to do any editing either. Maybe someone with experience in editing can add to this. --Dschwen ( talk ) 17:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Finding a suitable set of parameters in avconv's man page has been difficult for me, too, because I convert video once in a few months and haven't thought of memorizing any of the required information. But it was our choice to use avconv. Why did you choose it? If it is because it is CLI, you can complain about codecs in general being complex, or the man page not newbie-friendly. Maybe because it is alphabetically near the beginning of the suggested list? Or are the proposed GUI tools too inflexible? --AVRS ( talk ) 17:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Batch conversion is easier than GUI for me. But that's besides the point. Anythingis more difficult than doing nothing I.e. uploading straight from the camera or phone. And don't forget that we are geeks, but the majority of our contributors isn't. If we want content diversity we have to encourage non geeks to participate! --Dschwen ( talk ) 18:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC) It may be at least as easy to get the tools to support easy batch conversion as get Commons to support MP4. I think the value of sticking to free formats only is bigger here than the difference between nothing and anything as used in your phrase. :) --AVRS ( talk ) 18:56, 17 January 2014 (UTC) It may be at least as easy to get the tools to support easy batch conversion as get Commons to support MP4. ?! This is most certainly not the case. A simple transcoder dropped into the commons video pipeline is one central change. Compare this to supporting tools on many many different platforms. --Dschwen ( talk ) 20:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC) It's not just a single transcoder, but also a media-covered RFC and a value compromise, licensing fees and storage space . --AVRS ( talk ) 21:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC) OK, as we are talking about "contributions only", it is an RFC, a small (but potentially dangerous as an argument for full support) compromise of values, licensing fees and conversion resources. --AVRS ( talk ) 21:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC) (Edit conflict) Licensing fees are not substantial and storage space is not an issue. And out there in the real world compromise is not a dirty word! --Dschwen ( talk ) 21:20, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Is "compromise of values" dirtier? --AVRS ( talk ) 21:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Now you're getting me pretty hot ;-) --Dschwen ( talk ) 21:41, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Out here in the real world "compromise" is often extremely dirty. Compromise of banking ethics, compromised banking system, compromise with Saddam Hussain, or making a compromise with devil worshipping cannibals are equally dirty examples when compared to compromising the up until now, 100% open standard values of Wikimedia Commons. It is a critical "Unique Selling Point" of the Wikimedia brand value. --Fæ ( talk ) 15:17, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd be interested in hearing what the "values" are that get cited here. I'm looking at the Foundation Mission Statement, and what jumps out is: collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally. (emphasis mine). What I don't see is Opensource activism. --Dschwen ( talk ) 16:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC) Dschwen, you are a Commons Bureaucrat, not a WMF Bureaucrat, could you please stick to Commons policies rather than shopping elsewhere for convenient cherrypicking if you insist on wikilawyering? COM:SCOPE is quite clear enough, it states that Commons content "Must be of an allowable free file format" and MP4, by definition, is not a free file format. No emphasis needed to make my point. --Fæ ( talk ) 16:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC) There is no point in pretending that the mission of the WMF is irrelevant here. It is the underlying basis for what we do here. I am aware of the commons policy. And what we are discussing here is obviously a change to that policy, otherwise we wouldn't need this RfC. --Dschwen ( talk ) 20:55, 18 January 2014 (UTC) WOW, thanks for that clarification. In which case, as a Bureaucrat could you please close this misunderstood RFC (which most voters think is about just allowing an extra format, not changing fundamental policy) and have a real RFC that changes the aims of Wikimedia Commons to include some weasel words like "free but with some 'encumbered' formats where you risk getting sued and losing your house or we might later change our minds and decide in a couple of years time that the media you have been reusing is not really free after all"? --Fæ ( talk ) 21:04, 18 January 2014 (UTC) Come on Fae, cut that crap. I am obviously not wearing my 'crat heat, but my multimedia contributor hat. We have plenty of crats that are less involved in this issue. I was one of the reviewers of this draft, and with the amount of involvement how could you think it would be appropriate for me to act in a crat capacity?! And of course a policy that, as you pointed out, asks for open formats would have to be changed. If that is such a WOW surprise for you, may I suggest you read the RfC again from top to bottom to avoid further surprises? Bye now. I'm off to enjoy my weekend in the mountains of Colorado now. --Dschwen ( talk ) 21:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC) "Crap?" Dschwen, I find your persistent hostile and caustic comments in this RFC unacceptable for someone trusted with Bureaucrat authority. Please behave yourself, you should be setting an example of mellow and collegiate behaviour in line with the expectations given at Commons:Bureaucrats. --Fæ ( talk ) 11:22, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

For me, free content is not easily separable from free software. Software is content. Why should content be free (even for commercial use)? Isn't it so that people can easily share what they know and sources of their knowledge efficiently and without violating a copyright? "Software patents" allow contamination (without warning, sometimes intentionally), of knowledge (about software/tools) with useful knowledge that cannot be used freely. The most obvious advantage of software freedom for me (compared to freeware) is the ability for users and third parties to fix errors and compatibility issues in abandoned software, or where the main developer wouldn't do it. While that seems to be also a reason for free content on Wikimedia projects, non-executable content doesn't usually suffer from patents on itself, or attempts to prohibit its reverse engineering (DRM is covered by my previous paragraph). "Under a free license or in the public domain" is the relevant point in your quote. The Mission Statement also links to wmf:Values, which talks about open standards (though without specifying if it means free standards, or also patent-encumbered ones) and freely-licensed tools. wmf:Values links to wmf:Resolution:Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles, which explicitly supports "open source" in its first section (you MP4 proponents have been citing "eliminate barriers" from the second section). --AVRS ( talk ) 17:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Will we get good content from this

This has been asked by an opposer above. To me this is a valid question, but to flat out block content from being contributed is not the answer. We will have to curate and assess the content and make the good contributions more visible (by floating them up in search, which the new Elasticsearch can do, or by gadgets such as my - shameless plug- FastCCI). Quite frankly right now I'd rather have a crappy shaky cellphone video of a cow birth, or an oil derrick, rather than no video at all. Having so many uploads that we have to choose good ones is a problem I'd like to have! --Dschwen (talk) 16:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Seriously. And as if we don't have a gigantic heap of crap here already in allowed non-video formats; how will this be any different? — Scott • talk 17:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Rest assured, we do not have a gigantic heap of crap here, though you are welcome to spend more time on this project than... elsewhere. Not everything banned users write on Jimbo's talk page is gospel, nor is it fair to describe all of those with opinions different to yours a "wannabe-digital Che Guevara". If you can get your off-wiki gang to chip in enough pennies, you can send me a "Digital gay Guevara" teeshirt though, that would be cool. --Fæ ( talk ) 17:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Supposedly Che Guevara was quite a meanie, not sure about Gay Guevara though... ;-) --Dschwen ( talk ) 18:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC) Ah, more timeless wisdom from Wikipediocracy's biggest fan. Your rose-tinted spectacles appear to have gone completely black, as I can assure you that in addition to the good stuff, Commons has warehouses, storerooms, vaults, chests, crates, boxes, buckets, and various assorted mounds, piles, and sticky lumps of utter crap, accumulated indiscriminately by an army of hoarders with the approximate nous for curation of a granite paving slab. And yes - many of the people pushing the zOMG-we-must-lead-the-free-format-revolution narrative strike me not only as wannabe digital Che Guevaras, but evoke José Arcadio Buendía dreaming of his perfect city of mirrors in the jungle - or Don Quixote tilting at windmills. I thought your inability to hold a conversation without mentioning your sexuality was a stereotype, but evidently it's not. How dull. Ciao. — Scott • talk 08:53, 17 January 2014 (UTC) FYI, Gay Guevara. --Fæ ( talk ) 15:50, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Hence my fondness for the "ingest" option. We'd really benefit from people being able to film something on their phone and click "upload to Wikimedia Commons" even with a conversion step - David Gerard ( talk ) 17:20, 16 January 2014 (UTC) You have to remember that we're looking for compelling reasons to fly in the face of what seems, from the state of this RFC, to be a community distaste for non-free and patent-encumbered formats. If there's relatively low-quality content coming out of the people who would be empowered by this switch, then maybe the reasons aren't so compelling. This isn't really an argument so much as an observation about what the point may have been :) --MarkTraceur ( talk ) 18:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)As a volunteer, not as a staffer

I think we will get more:

Blurry, low quality videos and videos violating someone's copyright (by showing creative works) as well as videos containing copyright protected music.

Videos violating personality rights.

I think we don't have the manpower to review these videos because one really has to watch the full video to find out whether it is suffering from any of these problems. We do not even offer online image editing tools so I think we should put our efforts into other areas. Whoever is able creating a high-quality video in mp4 format is usually also able to convert to a free format. -- Rillke(q?) 20:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Rillke, and I think that the current obstacles for uploading video material are indeed a quite efficient "crap filter". If someone wants to upload a video here, they have to be a bit determined and willing to go through video conversion - which isn't terribly complicated, but at least people can't right away upload to Commons some low-quality rubbish they have taken with their mobile phone just now in an one-click manner. And for this I'm grateful, really very grateful. On the other hand, if one has a video that is really a substantial contribution and they really want to donate to Commons, it's totally manageable to convert and upload it. It's more important to get some quality content than huge amounts of more or less questionable content. Gestumblindi ( talk ) 21:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I disagree, obviously. I think we have to dare growth and lower barriers instead of putting them up. Even for me (as a technical minded user) the conversion and editing process of video is just too cumbersome to bother. I have an SLR with Video capability (5D MkII) which could produce stunning HD video and a new smartphone (Moto X) which produces pretty good HD video, and have found my self shooting clips on numerous occasions with it but never managed to upload anything. Why do I have to waste my time jumping through hoops, just to prove that my content is worthy enough to be accepted on commons? I think this attitude hurts the project. --Dschwen ( talk ) 22:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Well, look at the JPEGs people are currently uploading... every day they include tons of copyvios and out-of-scope photos that need to be deleted; it's already very hard to keep up with it at Commons, and undetected copyvios are everywhere (yes, I'm not one of the most active admins myself...). Why expect people being more careful with videos? And as Rillke says, it's obviously much harder / time-consuming to review videos. Gestumblindi ( talk ) 22:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

While I'm all for lowering barriers, is there any evidence that the lack of patent-encumbered codecs is an actual obstacle towards the contribution of video material of sufficient quality? Producing good videos will require serious editing anyway and basically every free software video editor supports free codecs, so you'll just have to export to another format. Hweimer ( talk ) 10:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

And we could increase quality on Wikipedia by preventing anonymous editing. But commitment to FOSS is not the only guiding principle. One of the others is: "In prioritizing new products and features, our goal is to impact the largest-possible number of readers and contributors, and to eliminate barriers that could preclude people from accessing or contributing." Requiring people to jump through unnecessary hoops to contribute is completely contrary to that. What if Theora and WebM were easier to produce and better supported such that this wasn't an issue? Would you be proposing that add more steps before uploading to make it more difficult? The goal should be to make contributing as easy as reasonably possible. Mr.Z-man ( talk ) 22:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

It depends on what is manageable. You certainly don't want Commons to become a repository of copyright violations and arbitrary personal pictures/videos. Commons is not simply a filehoster. Contributions to Commons can't be exactly compared to contributions to Wikipedia: Keeping it extremely easy to edit Wikipedia articles is less of a problem, because vandalism is easily reverted by any contributor and requires no special process or privileges. It still works well there, I'd say. The easiness of uploading images at Commons is already more problematic, as removing inappropriate content requires more time and comparatively only a few people can delete images. So, "to impact the largest-possible number of readers and contributors" is a noble goal, but the word "possible" is important. If uploading Theora/WebM videos were very easy and we couldn't cope with the amount of inappropriate uploads as a result - yes, then maybe we would need to introduce some additional obstacles, warning screens or upload limits (e.g. only one video per day for new users or the like) to make it manageable. Gestumblindi ( talk ) 22:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Except that we don't actually know whether or not it will be unmanageable. This is pre-emptive restrictions, which is even worse IMO. We make it easy, and then if there is a problem with abuse, we deal with it - using something sensible like upload limits or autoconfirmed requirements. Mr.Z-man ( talk ) 04:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

We've already considered a throttle for video and audio uploads (Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive 36#ExactMonth32 (talk · contribs)) and new users are throttled by Special:AbuseFilter/110 for all their uploads. In fact, they can't upload more than 6 files using Upload Wizard at once. But they aren't told, and that's I think the issue: We're developing intransparent barriers while The Foundation undertakes everything making contributing easier. To conclude: New file patrollers are overworked, WMF wants to polish their numbers while not fully understanding that we have a copyright/personality right-violations-issue, high quality contributors want to be able to easily add their content. Where could we go from here? We could, for example, allow mp4 uploads only from trusted users. Trust could be defined by the global behaviour on WMF-wikis, or previous good contributions to Commons. We could write this into our official rules so users know about what they can achieve and maybe have a goal which involves contributing in a positive manner. Other models are possible: New users could be allowed uploading one file that has to be reviewed before they are able to upload the next files. But we are lacking such a review system. That should be implemented, first I believe; before enabling mp4 uploads and other popular video and music format. -- Rillke(q?) 09:13, 17 January 2014 (UTC) @Rillke: It seems a bit unfair to me to reduce the WMF's goals to polishing their numbers. I'm willing to assume good faith and would think their motivation is in line with their mission of making the educational content more available. --Dschwen ( talk ) 17:25, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Yeah, maybe you are right. But if it's available on YouTube it also doesn't harm and the WMF does not have to pay for the bandwidth (and patent) fees, which I guess, will grow with the popularity of video usage. And it seems to be dubious to me that everything needs to be a video; APNG and animated SVGs would be great to have for graphic-animation and they can be more easily edited than video files. There is so much room for improvement that I think before they buy expensive video converting hardware (or did they already?), they could invest more into software development. The mw-code base needs major improvements, for example some of the special pages still use layout tables and fail to associate the label with the input field. -- Rillke(q?) 20:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC) The existing transcode node is pretty idle at the moment (brion can elaborate, I lost the ganglia link). I was assured that the capacity is already there. To me it seems that enabling MP4 is a cheap thing that can be done right now. Regardless of other problems that we may have. Those other problems won't get solved faster by refusing mp4. --Dschwen ( talk ) 20:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Reasons for lack of adoption of free formats

I think the RFC text slightly misrepresents the reasons that free formats aren't widely adopted, and I'd like to weigh in quickly here. I think that the three listed reasons - difficulty in video creation, lack of support on mobile devices, and lack of browser support - are not reasons at all, but symptoms of the fact that these formats aren't widely adopted. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the subject, and I welcome anyone who is (or thinks they are ;)) to weigh in. My hypothesis would be that the MP4 format edged out the free formats largely for a combination of slight technical advantages and various political deals between vendors. I doubt there's much by way of evidence for the latter, but it would be interesting to see the numbers on the former if we have them.

Also, given that the three listed items are symptoms instead of causes, I would suggest that they're ripe for being solved. Maybe not by us directly, but we have influence as a movement that could be put to use encouraging a good, free solution for video creation, good hardware support for mobile devices for free codecs, and better browser support in free browsers (sadly IE will be left out unless Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, decides to adopt...let's shed a tear). I think throwing that influence behind this cause is definitely something Commons should support as a community, even if the broader Wikimedia movement decides it's not worthwhile - this community is a giant in the online media sphere, and particularly in the free online media sphere, and having better tools for free video codecs seems like, even if this RFC succeeds, something that would be beneficial to us and others. --MarkTraceur (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2014 (UTC)As a volunteer, not as a staffer

For examples of some low-level things we could do to promote client-side Theora/WebM use, see mw:User:Brion VIBBER/Media codec alternatives (I've done some preliminary research into playback, but haven't done proof of concept for transcoding yet). This wouldn't be trivial work, but it could be beneficial for other free-software/free-content-ish projects. However it is work that WMF would prefer to avoid having to do just to get more audio and video into the Wiki*edia experience... One might consider also possibilities such as using MP4(AVC/H.264) for today's devices, while simultaneously working on VP8 & VP9 support aiming towards the future, but it'd be something we'd need to garner support for actually making happen... --brion ( talk ) 18:04, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't suggest that the WMF would do this work. I suspect a lot of the push would come from a community movement, and there might be some portion of it that's encouraged with grants, but I don't foresee WMF staff spending time on this, or at least not Foundation time. --MarkTraceur ( talk ) 18:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)As a volunteer, not as a staffer

I think you are severely overestimating the ability we have to "push". Even if we could push just a little bit any appreciable results would be way in the future. We have the option to harness over a billion cellphone users as video contributors (and consumers) right now, as opposed to maybe a fraction in a few years. --Dschwen ( talk ) 18:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Guilt those not using free formats

I find myself unable to argue against adding support for MP4 upload or playback, especially when it's hedged with Ogg/etc. backups. Making it easier for people to contribute and view media on Wikimedia projects is very important, and MP4 support would further that. That being said, by supporting MP4, Wikimedia would be implicitly supporting MP4 in the other sense of the word. As a compromise, MP4 could be treated as what it is: an option offered for the ease of contributors and readers, rather than for the principles of the movement. Use Ogg/WebM wherever possible, but support MP4 passively for uploads (automatically transcoding an alternative or two) and as a fallback for viewing.

In other words, while supporting MP4 is a good move, we need to temper it by explaining to people the problem that we face, the contradiction between our desire for usability and our desire for a pure FLOSS environment for our free-media wikis. We should explain the problems with proprietary formats and offer people the best alternatives that we can, including browser plugins, transcoding solutions, et cetera. To think out loud: I wonder if there's a way to offer 1-click links that would open video streams in VLC. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 18:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Why now?

Number of video uploads per one image upload. Mostly stagnated, spikes are likely due to batch uploads, such as User:Open_Access_Media_Importer_Bot which is responsible for almost half of our video uploads. -- Dschwen talk ) 21:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

2006: free formats are really awkward to pla