READER COMMENTS ON

"The Sacrament of Democracy"

(12 Responses so far...)





COMMENT #1 [Permalink]

... Ancient said on 11/18/2008 @ 8:05 am PT...





Excellent comparision Shannyn. I'm just wondering, what you think about the dem's argument they couldn't push election integrity issues before this presidential election for fear of undermining people's confidence in the election process and using that excuse to allow the dysfunction in our elections to get their guy in and keep the whole power structure still in place? Hell, the supreme court even sided with that flawed logic. As a very wise man once replied when asked have we a republic or monarchy?, " A republic if you can keep it." http://www.bartleby.com/73/1593.html Without clean, unquestionable elections, it doesn't seem to me we have kept it...feel good victory or not! Add to that, the most listened to media's total blackout of the most troubling aspects of our election systems, and by george, one could easily reason the appearance of a Democracy would be enough to keep the monarchy in place. It seems to me a historic opportunity exists for our president elect in restoring our Democracy with clean election law.

COMMENT #2 [Permalink]

... TEDEGER said on 11/18/2008 @ 9:07 am PT...





For eight years now, we've had a monarchy Most of us didn't like it. of course the American Tories wallowwed in the glory that was Bush, but Now that the idea has resurfaced, let us make certain that it never disappears again.most of us would have preferred to be ruled by our Condtitution, instead of one man's whim

COMMENT #3 [Permalink]

... Jimmy Lewis said on 11/18/2008 @ 9:25 am PT...





The technology exists, and has for quite some time, that would allow each and every state across teh fruited plain (Hawaii and Alaska as well) to completely stop all voter fraud. There's no time like the present to get the darn thing in place and implemented. Jimmy Lewis

SCS, Michigan

Blog: http://rougerevival.blogspot.com/

COMMENT #4 [Permalink]

... the zapkitty said on 11/18/2008 @ 9:26 am PT...





The latest round of kongresskrapper kabuki has finished. This episode was entitled "FUCK YOU NETROOTS!" and was presented by the Senate to everyone in the USA who voted for "change". At the end of the stylized performance the hero Lieberman was saved from answering for his neglect of his duties and enabling of Bush regime malfeasance and instead was rewarded with great wealth and power. The hero who saved him, President-Elite Obama, stood modestly by. Change who can believe in?

COMMENT #5 [Permalink]

... the zapkitty said on 11/18/2008 @ 9:45 am PT...





... Jimmy Lewis said... "The technology exists ... to stop all voter fraud" Since voter fraud, i.e. fraud by voters, is practically nonexistent that wouldn't be much. If you meant electoral fraud, fraud at the electoral level, well most of that is currently caused or abetted by technology of one form or the other in the first place... very poorly chosen technology.

COMMENT #6 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 11/18/2008 @ 10:12 am PT...





Jimmy Lewis -



What "voter fraud" and what "technology" are you talking about? Sounds like you don't have a clue about either of them. Feel free to prove me wrong. Though I might suggest you go read the article again first...then another hundred or more other articles here before you bother to step in it again. The voters are doing fine. Please leave them alone. But the administration of your elections --- by private companies, and insidious officials trying to keep legal voters from casting their legal vote --- are a disaster. And that, my friend, is ELECTION fraud. Hope you take the time to learn what you're writing about, and about the most precious right and important value on which your country stands.

COMMENT #7 [Permalink]

... Jimmy Lewis said on 11/18/2008 @ 11:17 am PT...





Brad, I did read your article ... and I thought it was very well written. I was not attacking voters, per se. Private companies and insidious officials are all a great part ot it, however, you called me out and asked what vote fraud. So Brad, here it is, the many types of fraud that exist today ... including: Voter registration, voter suppression, voter caging and purging, voting multiple times, felon voting, absentee ballots, voter impersonation, illegal aliens, homeless people and vote brokers who bus people from place to polling place all figure into elections. Then there’s the physical tampering aspect. Ballot stuffing, theft or destruction of ballot boxes, destroying election material, registering false voters including the dead (this type of fraud can occur in voter registration drives, especially those conducted in third-party voter registration efforts like those involving ACORN. There have been reports of changing the software of a voting machine to shift votes between candidates. Altering or replacing the hardware of the voting machine, such as inserting a circuit board using a ‘Man in the Middle’ attack technique to manipulate recorded votes. And how about voter intimidation and coercion, bribery, corruption or threatening of election officials that has existed for far too long? Counting electronic ballots of voting machines, usually memory cards, more than once if they contain votes as wanted by the fraudster. The opposite is to let them disappear in case of unwanted votes, this is equivalent to stealing an entire ballot box. The technology I spoke of would combine the following: A uniformed (nationwide) bar code on all drivers licenses and state issued I.D. cards (which would indicate whether or not the voter is legally registered), along with biometrics (i.e. a thumb print). The individual “registered” voter would be the only human to handle his or her own vote. If the bar code and biometrics match, the vote would then be sent, electronically and instantaneously, to each individual city and state offices where the integrity of the data is secure and final (all without any additional human intervention or interpretation. Since this system would allow for any legally qualified individual to vote (once), at any officially authorized location around the globe, the need for absentee balloting becomes moot. I’m sorry that you felt the need to read between the lines and attack me … when in essence I was agreeing with you. Jimmy Lewis

SCS, Michigan

Blog: http://rougerevival.blogspot.com/

COMMENT #8 [Permalink]

... Phil said on 11/18/2008 @ 4:08 pm PT...





Jimmy Lewis, 1. I am a registered voter, and because of financial problems, I don't have an ID card. Now what? 2. DMV Tries to Stem the Tide of Fake Licenses Voting ID is a Real BAD idea. (only took me 0.29 seconds to find this http://www.google.com/se...alifornia+DMV+corruption ) 3. Humans can not see electronic signals, such a system as you suggested above (electronically and instantaneously), would not allow for citizen oversight, and would in fact open up exploit possibilities to officials and programmers. Also electronic parts fail without warning. 4. voter fraud and election fraud are not the same. These words have different meanings which represent different actions. 5. Nobody is attacking you. 6. Not sure how to break this down so you understand. "Voter registration, voter suppression, voter caging and purging, voting multiple times, felon voting, absentee ballots, voter impersonation, illegal aliens, homeless people and vote brokers who bus people from place to polling place all figure into elections." We shall try.. Voter registration - election fraud

voter suppression - election fraud

voter caging and purging - election fraud

voting multiple times - voter fraud, fascist media story fraud

felon voting - voter fraud

absentee ballots - election fraud

voter impersonation - voter fraud, fascist media hype fraud

illegal aliens - voter fraud, fascist media story hype fraud

homeless people and vote brokers who bus people from place to polling place all figure into elections. - voter fraud, fascist media story hype fraud Continuing on... physical tampering aspect - Election Fraud

Ballot stuffing - Election Fraud, Broken Chain of Custody

theft or destruction of ballot boxes - Election Fraud, Broken Chain of Custody

destroying election material - Election Fraud, Broken Chain of Custody

registering false voters including the dead - Election Fraud (this type of fraud can occur in voter registration drives, especially those conducted in third-party voter registration efforts like those involving ACORN. - Media Hype Fraud There have been reports of changing the software of a voting machine to shift votes between candidates. - Election Fraud Altering or replacing the hardware of the voting machine, such as inserting a circuit board using a ‘Man in the Middle’ attack technique to manipulate recorded votes. - Election Fraud And how about voter intimidation - Election Fraud

and coercion - Election Fraud

bribery - Voter Fraud, Transparency Breech corruption or threatening of election officials that has existed for far too long? (Two Sub Categories lumped into one.) Corrupt Officials - Election Fraud

Threatening Election Officials - Media Hype, The opposite has been true where Officials threaten and arrest voters and poll watchers. Counting electronic ballots of voting machines - Election Fruad usually memory cards usually, more than once if they contain votes as wanted by the fraudster. - Election Fraud The opposite is to let them disappear in case of unwanted votes, this is equivalent to stealing an entire ballot box. - Election Fraud 7. Paper Ballots, Hand Counted, with public oversight and an Unbroken Chain of Custody, and Non Electronic Voter Registration Registry List.

COMMENT #9 [Permalink]

... Lora said on 11/18/2008 @ 4:21 pm PT...





What a great post. Shannyn puts the "gritty" in election integrity.

COMMENT #10 [Permalink]

... the zapkitty said on 11/18/2008 @ 7:19 pm PT...





... Phil said in comment #8... Rock on, Phil! Your answers, and Brads, were much more coherent than my sleep-deprived one.

COMMENT #11 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 11/19/2008 @ 12:11 pm PT...





Jimmy Lewis - I will take it on faith, for the moment, that you are sincere in your concerns and so will presume that you had previously been confused by so much of the propaganda out there. My time is short today, and so I'll refer you to Phil's response above, in hopes that it begins to help you untangle the conflation you've made between real concerns of election fraud, and the phony (GOP-promoted) concerns about voter fraud. Yes, the idea of hundreds of thousands and/or millions of voters being illegally purged from the roles is a very serious concern. As is the idea that a single person with inappropriate access to a voting machine can flip an entire election without detection. The largely fantasized notion of "illegals" and dead people and fraudulently registered ACORN voters voting and double-voting, etc. is a scam. While there are a handful (literally, can be counted on one hand) of such things happening over the past 10 years, they hardly compare to the very real concerns mentioned in the graf above. You'll note that your proposed "solutions" do nothing to combat the real concerns mentioned, only the phony ones. In fact, they make some of the real concerns even worse (since there are far more access points for bad guys to invisibly disrupt/confound/flip the entire process). As mentioned, I don't have much time today, so I'll have to leave it at that for now, and hope that you will get to work --- there is plenty to read here over the years --- to untangle what has been tangled for you, so we can work together towards real solutions (hint: none of them require technology). And, for the record, I did not write the piece above. It was written by Shannyn Moore from Alaska, a journalist who has recently learned hard, concentrated lessons in the need for transparency in elections due to the recent fiascos in her state.

COMMENT #12 [Permalink]

... Phil said on 11/21/2008 @ 10:00 am PT...

