HuK Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Canada 1591 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-06 12:54:31 #1 Hi I'm really bad at this but I'm going to try since it comes up so often.



Almost all top players as far as I can think at some point or another have had some issues with this (including Idra, morrow, myself, etc. etc.) so I think it would be healthy for it to be discuss publicly.





The issues with games being livestreamed:

Negatives





- Lag



Lag with usually 1 video guy, 2 casters, 1 admin ( 4 people in general) for the main stream is a lot of players even if it only adds a slight amount of lag/delay to game play on top of other issues players might be having including cross realm play. This in no way includes every other person who wants to cast/stream the games.



- Cheating



Believe it or not people are not always moral. On the contrary I find it hard to believe as an intelligent human being that people won't cheat. As far as I know no "livestreams" have any delay besides a few seconds added to their stream. So something such as Gosucup which I played today where 900 euro is the 1st place and the games are being live streamed sooner or later someone will cheat if it hasn't already happened (which I'm sure it has). Other then that it is also almost undetectable and can't be proven. I am no way accusing adelscott of doing this just saying it is a possibility in the past/future/present for such especially with money involved. Obviously at LANs this is not an issue.



- Stress



Thats right boohoo stress to the players, but you have no idea from week to week to play in ESL how many messages from legit and unlegit people you get asking to stream your games. If people had it their way every single game I play and most top players in general would be full with different streamers who constantly lag and complain about how they are more important to the other. More importantly when there is lag even on screen peoples names popping up, they don't leave. This is ontop of trying to focus on playing, dealing with admins, other players, etc. etc.



Positives



-Live games

You get to watch games 5-10 minutes before they could just be streamed as replays when players send them in is the only real advantage I see from "live games". But is it really worth it considered the negative effects?







Now many people are going to say, "but if its live it will attract more viewers." Which isn't really true, two of the biggest tournaments/most successful were both done off of pure replays. (HDH / DAY9 KOTB)



I will do my best to keep this thread very open and edit any good input people have to the OP from either side, if I fall behind feel free admins to do it if you wish.











EDIT:



Clarifications:

-The main issue above all others are cheating

-This is obviously is 300x more important as the tournament/prizepool gets bigger

-LAN events obviously should always be casted LIVE when possible (especially since the biggest issue isn't an issue)

- I am still not convinced that people are so eager over live games, as seen in this forum most people are more then willing to compromise a delayed cast or replays over "live" games. The only problem is if one person does get a chance to "live" stream obviously they are going to get a majority of the viewers vs another streamer who is going to stream the exact same thing 10 minutes later as replays.



Problems:

-Spoiled results

-Players not sending in replays

-Other people getting a hold of the replays before designated casters





Compromises/solutions:

-Consequences for people who post/spoil results in forum area as usual. (good job tl) Also maybe close chat in streams so people don't flood/spoil results if becomes that big of a problem.



-Players should be forced to send replays immediately to a specified email or upload so games are received first by designated streamers. (not doing so should results and punishment so to's and casters don't have to chase around players).



-1 Admin should attend the game and afterward send in replays to designated email address or upload Progamer Live like a God or die like a Slave 11:11

Whiplash Profile Blog Joined October 2008 United States 2801 Posts #2 I think in most cases it should be up to the player if they want casters in their games or not Former professional broadcaster. Back in college to get a degree, then back to e-Sports!

Tropics Profile Joined August 2007 United Kingdom 1131 Posts #3 people need to show way more respect for the players



every terrible caster wants to get their stream going with absolutely no regard to players. the amount of time i see players asking just random obs to leave when they get drop screen and the obs just being like "WONT HAPPEN AGAIN" even after its happened 7 times already is appalling

Draconicfire Profile Joined May 2010 Canada 2561 Posts #4 I personally dont mind watching VODs over livestreams. I mean livestreams are the way to go when it comes to something that can be interactive and fun, kinda like TL Attack or something, but for serious events I dont see why people dont at least delay the stream a few minutes or just release VODs after. @Drayxs | Drayxs.221 | Drayxs#1802

Torture Profile Joined May 2010 Canada 221 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-06 00:47:33 #5



KOTB as you said was done purely off replays and it was one of the best tournaments I've watched. (And one of the few I've watched "live")



Lagging casters are annoying for all involved. Terrible for the players, terrible for viewers who just want to watch a good game, and probably pretty annoying for the caster as well. It should be a one strike (maybe two if you're feeling generous) rule with the players calling the shots. If they don't leave you (the player) should be allowed to ban them from casting anymore of your games. Personally I watch VODs most of the time because I can't be bothered to figure out what time the event is going on in my timezone.KOTB as you said was done purely off replays and it was one of the best tournaments I've watched. (And one of the few I've watched "live")Lagging casters are annoying for all involved. Terrible for the players, terrible for viewers who just want to watch a good game, and probably pretty annoying for the caster as well.It should be a one strike (maybe two if you're feeling generous) rule with the players calling the shots. If they don't leave you (the player) should be allowed to ban them from casting anymore of your games.

Complete Profile Joined October 2009 United States 1441 Posts #6 I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why more tournaments can't just make it mandatory to send in replays and then casters can just cast the ones they want. No missing games because they already started. No getting rejected because they don't want lag. No down time, wait between rounds? Get another replay.



It makes sense.

rackdude Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 805 Posts #7 It's likes obs for BW, everyone just knew the informal rule that more than 4 on ICCUP lags the game. They should just have a main cast with a good known caster and a "dead cast" with just the game noises. The dead cast should be easy to find for other casters to be able to restream with their own cast on top of it.



I feel for you and I hope this all works out in the end. Sweet.

Reubachi Profile Joined January 2008 United States 40 Posts #8 I personally would never have gotten into the "foreigner casting scene" if it weren't for the live cast of the GOM invitational. But, i'm terribad. But, I feel a good deal of those tuning in are around my level of terribad. A raisin in the sun is a lot less of a grape than a regular raisin.

I_Love_Bacon Profile Blog Joined August 2009 United States 4681 Posts #9 Cheating has always been my biggest concern w/ live streams in games. The smaller tournaments with less at stake and less organization I understand. But when there is serious $ at line, people have cheated over a lot, lot less. And with streaming it's 100x easier to do it and get away with it. " i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler

Clamev Profile Blog Joined January 2010 Germany 498 Posts #10 I don´t know if this is possible or not but Blizzard should make lag for Observer like it is in HoN.

Wich is to say that if a Observer is lagging than the game is only lagging for the Observer and not for the players.

This should in my eyes resolve the exact problem. but i don´t know all the tech stuff but maybe someone can say if it´s possible or not. 6Pool or die trying

Dubes Profile Joined August 2010 United States 327 Posts #11 This is definitely a tightrope issue, and I'm sure there will be plenty of flame ahead in this topic, but you do bring up a good point about streams being usable during matches in tournaments. Tackling that problem is very difficult, and I doubt there will be a fix to it in the near future. If lag is that much of an issue, I would consider only letting casters with reliable connections cast your games. Or maybe have live casts delayed be sending the replays to the casters to cast right after the match has ended, which would technically solve the problem of lag. Anyways that's my 2c..

figq Profile Blog Joined May 2010 11851 Posts #12 Yep, the truth is every live streaming could have been just instant replay-cast, right after the game had already finished. No one would be hurt. It's simply a matter of custom. If people agree to do it that way, I don't see it causing more trouble compared to how it is done now. Also, in the end the player's comfort is the most important; otherwise there won't be quality games to watch anyway. If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]

Clonze Profile Joined October 2009 Canada 280 Posts #13 ) +++++ I think games should be casted as replays unless both players are at a LAN and there should also be no observers in any games that matter. There are no negatives this way and all positives) +++++ Putting zenio on your fantasy team is almost as bad as putting him on your actual team. -Alex Smith

Innsmouth-Zerg Profile Joined August 2010 Austria 137 Posts #14 I agree with HuK ^^ stand up defend or lay down and die

so.nerdy Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 31 Posts #15 I 100% agree, it should always be replays casted (other than at events such as GSL/gom tv tournament where the games are played in front of huge audiences .



A lot of the casters fight over who gets to watch games and who should be outted. An easy example is when the gosugamer casters were furious at BigT and drama evolved. Realistically a player should just be sending their replays to both these parties and they can both cast it and people can choose who to listen to rather than different caster-fanboys bombing other livestream channels and bm-ing.



Another thing is that some of the players could join in on the cast and give valuable incite to what they were thinking instead of what the caster thinks they were thinking. I'm sure at least a few of the players would volunteer their team to put in some input. I use a lot of these casts to learn and hate when casters get it wrong and trash on the players strategies when it is clear to me that these players have ulterior motives. Ex. When the casters for your showmatch were constantly questioning your decision to not get extended lasers for your colossus. To me, there were a number of reasons why you weren't upgrading it, and if you were to be a part of the cast for the replay you could have explained yourself rather than 300 posts going up in the showmatch thread theorizing each of your plays. ?

Eeeegor Profile Joined April 2005 Australia 646 Posts #16 I agree with this - something that crossed my mind just the other day, with regards to cheating - unless the players are sitting in the same location with a live audience for spectating, online the possibility of cheating is way too high Day9 Made Me Do It

vileChAnCe Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Canada 525 Posts #17 I honestly don't think it should even be up for discussion if its affecting your gameplay and the large majority of pro players then agree to not to do it unless your conditions are to be met. I'd rather have optimal conditions for you then a small inconvenience of waiting a couple minutes for release.





What I would love to see happen is having the caster getting a few details of what was going on in specific moments from the player so instead of stupid shit comments like "spreading creep is really necessary" the caster could actually shed some light on game breaking moments that otherwise would be missed. So yes Replays Over Live any day Day[9] i've broken 6 mice, 5 keyboards, 3 pairs of headphones, and a mousepad, all from raging after starcraft losing streaks

AcrossFiveJulys Profile Blog Joined September 2005 United States 3610 Posts #18 On September 06 2010 09:47 Clamev wrote:

I don´t know if this is possible or not but Blizzard should make lag for Observer like it is in HoN.

Wich is to say that if a Observer is lagging than the game is only lagging for the Observer and not for the players.

This should in my eyes resolve the exact problem. but i don´t know all the tech stuff but maybe someone can say if it´s possible or not.



Agreed. The only thing that needs to be done in that situation is when an observer is lagging, their client pauses until the next wave of packets come in, at which point the client synchronizes. It seems tricky but possible to implement. Agreed. The only thing that needs to be done in that situation is when an observer is lagging, their client pauses until the next wave of packets come in, at which point the client synchronizes. It seems tricky but possible to implement.

Lysithea Profile Joined February 2008 Sweden 200 Posts #19 I'm still amazed blizzard didn't code like other games does where obs has no effect on the game being played itself. Also, no reconnect/save option, wtf?



They really ought to take a lesson from HoN cause their reconnect feature and obs possibilities are just amazing compared to sc2. "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." - Muhammad Ali

jamesr12 Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 1549 Posts #20 live casting is good for lan style events



bad for online tourneys http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479

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