TONY JONES: Good evening and welcome to Q&A live from the Grand Studio of our partners at Metro TV News, Jakarta. I'm Tony Jones and answering your questions tonight: Yenny Wahid, the daughter of the former Indonesian President Gus Durr and director of the Wahid Institute for Religious Tolerance; the editor-in-chief of the Jakarta Post, Meidyatama Suryodiningrat, also known as Dimas; the senior adviser to Indonesian Vice President Dewi Fortuna Anwar; the deputy editor-in-Chief of Tempo magazine, Yuli Ismartono; Indonesia's representative on the ASEAN Human Rights Commission, Rafendi Djamin; and Tim Lindsey, the Director of the Centre for Indonesian Law, Islam and Society at Melbourne University. Please welcome our panel.

Thank you. Tonight we are being simulcast on ABC News 24, the Australia Network and News Radio and streamed from the Q&A and Australia Network websites and you can join the Twitter conversation, as usual, with the hashtag that just appeared on your screen.

Well, as the Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd flies in to meet President Yudhoyono, we're joined by an audience of Australians and Indonesians to ask the questions. Our first question tonight comes from Baetty.

AUSTRALIAN EXPECTATIONS

BAETTY: I'd like to say that Australians' expectations of what Indonesia can do are unreasonable. What my question is: What Australia has put into policy in order to stop people smuggling without insisting Indonesia to put it into policy. Thank you.

TONY JONES: Dewi Fortuna Anwar, are Australia's expectations of what Indonesia can do on people smuggling unreasonable?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Well, I have been saying that, actually, Tony, because while I understand the concerns that - all of us are very concerned especially about the tragedies, the sinking of ships and so many deaths and so on and clearly this has to be stopped. And we have to admit that Indonesia and Australia are both victims of this, because most of these people come from outside the region. But to expect Indonesia to be able to stop every ports in the - you know, we have over 17,000 islands, various small fishing ports and everything, which are very poorly guarded, with our poor capacity and resources are very stretched very thin, I think it is rather unreasonable to be able, you know, to expect Indonesia to do as much as some people in Australia expect.

TONY JONES: Would it be reasonable to ask Indonesia to do something about the police corruption that is sometimes behind the people smuggling and the access they're getting to ports and boats?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Let me say that one of the issues that Indonesia faces is corruption. Corruption is systemic, endemic and it is really the bane of our country's life. This is one of the major agenda of our democratic reform and we are seriously trying to have zero tolerance towards corruption, but we have to be the first to admit that corruption still happens and whether it is aiding people smuggling, whether it's drug trafficking, whether it is just overall briberies, you know, corruption does happen and when we have to be able to separate the Indonesian Government is trying seriously to tackle with corruption, but the problems that we face is enormous and I don't think we should condone corrupt police or taking bribes because especially they lead to death of so many people. But the fact of the matter is, you know, this is not something that the state will condone.

TONY JONES: Dimas, what do you say about the original question, whether Australia has unreasonable expectations of Indonesia?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: I think expectations, whether Indonesia or Australia, are always unreasonable most of the time. But I think it's - excuse me.

TONY JONES: Why do you think that is, by the way?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: That's life, isn't it? But I think that in terms of perspective, you have to look at it two ways: one, Australia is a destination country. Indonesia is a transit country. So in that way we look at things very differently and the point you have to remember is that Indonesia is only the last transit point. It is a bit like finding a network of mafia in which you don't stop it at the transit point, you stop it at the source. Even if Indonesian police were the most cleanest and best in the world, I don't think it would stop the boat people from coming to Australia. The prize is Australia. Even though there are 10,000 boat people in Indonesia, they still want to go to Australia. They don't want to go to Indonesia, they don't want to stop in Malaysia, so it is Australia. So it's about working together as a regional problem, stopping it at the source. Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, that's where you have to stop it.

TONY JONES: There have been reports in Australian newspapers that Kevin Rudd may come here with an offer to actually set up and pay for a processing centre so that Indonesia is no longer a transit country but a place where refugees are processed. Would you agree with that? Or asylum seekers?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: There is already a processing centre south of Jakarta in (indistinct) run by United Nations Commission on Refugees. There is already a processing centre set up by the International Migration Office. One of the problems there is that the refugees there or the asylum seekers there wait for three years, four years and they get bored of waiting and the go to people smugglers. They pay people to go to Australia. So I don't necessarily think that is the solution per se. I mean it's just a continuation. And to put it another way, I think it's very dangerous to put the issue of people smuggling, which is really an Australian domestic agenda in the face of coming elections, as a top-tier issue in terms of the bilateral relationship.

TONY JONES: Well, let's give you a bit of an indication - I will come to the rest of the panel after this - as to why it is such a big issue in Australia. Our next question is a video. It's from John Rogers in Cremorne, New South Wales.

INDONESIA MUST STOP BOATS

JOHN ROGERS: It is clear that the boats arriving from Indonesia are owned by Indonesians, crewed by Indonesians and a lot of people in authority in Indonesia are making serious money from our refugee crisis. Little wonder then there is no incentive to stop it. Is it time for the Prime Minister to tell Jakarta that we need to drastically reduce our aid budget to that country in order for us to pay for the processing, settlement or deportation of the boat arrivals that freely leave that country? No more kowtowing please, Mr Rudd.

YULI ISMARTONO: Yuli Ismartono, I mean you hear the anger in that and that's what Australian politicians face. I mean you've been to Australia many times. What do you think when you hear that kind of argument being made?

YULI ISMARTONO: Well, I wonder if Australians understand that the problem of refugees happen mostly in coastal areas, one of the poorest areas in Indonesia. And here they are burdened by all this refugee influx. The authorities have to deal with arresting them, putting in cells, feeding them and, you know, it's, like Dewi said, it's more than we can do. Now, I see the problem. Corruption is one of them, maybe, but he should understand it's also poverty. People who are poor in the coastal areas are tempted to offer their boats. So what do you do? I see, perhaps, a regional - if you really expand it, since a lot of countries are involved, to do something like empowering the people who are touched or affected by it.

TONY JONES: Do you think the Indonesian Government gets how passionate this discussion and debate has gotten in Australia? And I will just add one more thing: the other side of politics is talking about stopping the boats at sea and turning them back towards Indonesia. Would that be acceptable?

YULI ISMARTONO: Not at all. I don't think the Indonesians would like that at all. They would probably push them back to Australia. You know, I mean, again, it's not our problem. We are just a transit country. We have sympathy for those people. But, you know, we are also burdened. Why can't they have processing centres in the coasts of Australia? Do you ever think about that?

TIM LINDSEY: What Yuli says is really putting the finger on the point of similarity that's the problem in this. Both countries agree that neither of them want the asylum seekers. Indonesia considers it to be Australia's problem as the destination country. Australia considers it to be Indonesia's country as the transit country. Neither want it. Both think it's the other one's problem. The boats may well be pushed backwards and forwards. That's effectively what's happening in terms of responsibility. That's why there needs to be some sort of comprehensive regional solution, like there was for the Indochinese refugees in the '90s. That's what's going to have to happen, with Indonesia front and centre in it, otherwise we're just going to get this pushing the blame backwards and forwards. Third order issue here but.

TONY JONES: Rafendi, can I ask you what do you think?

RAFENDI DJAMIN: Yeah. Yeah. I try to already jump in but you know...

TONY JONES: I'm giving you an opportunity. Jump in. Go ahead.

RAFENDI DJAMIN: What is the underlying issue, you know? People seem to have forgot, both sides, Australia and Indonesia, we have similarity. You say there is a different perspective but we have similarity, pretty much. Is this a question of border protection or human protection? Is it a border protection or human rights protection? It's a choice that you have to make and if descriptions of the politician about the flux of this people smuggling, I mean you think about the fact. The land border in Syria, when there is a crisis of refugee, 1.7 million people take refuge to the neighbouring country, 1.7 and what we are they talking about now between Indonesia and Australia it's less than 10,000 probably in a year.

TONY JONES: Except can I...

RAFENDI DJAMIN: What are we talking about? Are we protecting the border or are we protecting the human?

TONY JONES: Can I just make the point this point would be made by Australian politicians and many other people in Australia as well, that a lot of people are getting on those boats. It's a very dangerous form of transport. They're going across dangerous stretches of sea and they're getting caught and drowning, large numbers of people are drowning. So what about their protection?

RAFENDI DJAMIN: Sure, we are talking about the same language now: protection. That language is supposed to be the priority of both sides. There is a regional effort now. We have the Bali process, okay? And then there is already an attempt to do some cooperation between two countries. But the main approach is still the law enforcement. There is not - the notion of protection is more a rhetoric. The thing you are saying is rhetoric. In practice what is becoming a policy is creating a detention centre. Giving money to Indonesian immigration office to create a detention centre. That's not a solution. That's not the human approach protection. I's more law enforcement protection.

TONY JONES: Okay. Let's hear from Yenny. I will bring you in in a second. I just want to hear from Yenny. We haven't heard from her yet. I mean, you'd know Australia very well, as well, and you'd be well aware of this debate and how passionate it is and the election context?

YENNY WAHID: Yeah. Well, I'm afraid all these debates about the asylum seekers is fodder for political consumption, domestic political consumption, in Australia and we're missing the bigger point here, which is to find a substantive solution, which is realistic and humane as well. You know, we can't just turn people away and, you know, and turn the boat away and hope that, you know, the problem will go away. I mean, it's not a realistic approach. I mean, there is a protocol in the sea in which, you know, if there are people in distress out in the sea, then navies, anyone who happens to meet them will have to help them. Yeah, but things like that have to be taken into perspective. So I think we have to avoid that. We have to, you know, get this again what is being said about finding a regional solution is the better approach and don't forget there are other countries here that are also involved. There is Malaysia, for example. Because these people are coming into Indonesia through Malaysia before they go to Australia, going through Indonesia. But first they enter South East Asia through Malaysia, because many people can enter Malaysia without any visa if they come from Muslim countries. So, Malaysia allow people from Muslim countries to travel through Malaysia without visa. From there, they travel by bus to Indonesia, which is much easier. So it is a big problem. And we have to differentiate between criminal acts and government policy. What's happening is people smuggling is a criminal act so our approach should be how to handle this issue, not to impose some unrealistic approach.

TONY JONES: Yeah. Let's hear from - unrealistic, I think, or unreasonable was how the first question started, Dewi. So we've have, in Australia, as you've heard, you know very well two very different views. The Coalition, that is Tony Abbott's party, says they can turn back the boats and they will with Indonesian cooperation. Do you believe that will happen ever?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Never. But that is not the point, you know. We are talking about...

TONY JONES: It is the point in Australian politics, I can assure you of that.

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: And I think we are all doing our silly seasons, and Australia gets to get sillier than us. We are getting sillier from now until next year. But I would like to say that when we talk about the regional problems, asking for regional solutions, we already have the Bali process. But, in fact, this is not just regional problems. This is international problems. The fact of the matter is it's very difficult to imagine that families will take the risk of death at seas and being abused throughout the way by sharks, by people smugglers and so on, if the push factor is not strong enough. I know that some Australian politicians talk about economic migrants but people who are looking...

TONY JONES: Well, the Foreign Minister, Senator Carr, who was here recently, is the person who put that front and centre in the headlines. You say that is not true?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: I would argue that people who are looking for simply better economic lives would rather like to live, at the end of the day. You know, if you want to improve your life, I doubt very much that they would actually go into leaky boat and, you know, with the possibility of sinking. It doesn't make sense. Usually the fear and the despair, I think there must be some despair factor because if you are just economic incentives - I come from West Sumatra, where most people go on migration. It's to make better life. You don't put your life in danger in the process, if possible. So here this is an international problem because most of those people who come through Indonesia to Australia come from the Middle East, from Afghanistan, from Iraq, from countries that are really suffering. In the '70s, they came from Indochina. So I think that we need to move this issue beyond simply bilateral issues and really also look at the source problems and stop, you know...

TONY JONES: Very briefly, because a lot of people in Australia will want to know why you said "never" when I asked whether there would be an acceptance of a Coalition Government in the future turning back boats. I mean you advise the Indonesian Vice President. If an Australian Government were to do that, begin turning back boats, not in Indonesian territory, outside Indonesian territory, but turning them back towards Indonesia, what would you advise the Government to do?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Well, not confrontation, as some people have mentioned lately. But clearly the Indonesian Government would convey our concerns to the Australian Government. Because whether we disagree on approaches, the most important thing that we should not unnecessarily put people in danger. And to have people going back and forth in the boats and sinking, both Indonesia and Australia will look very, very bad and I think that we should not allow ourselves to be so inhumane to do that kind of thing.

TONY JONES: Now, President Yudhoyono has never actually said this in public?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Vice President Yudhoyono was interviewed by ABC just a couple of weeks ago and when he was asked this question, "Would Indonesia accept, you know, this kind of proposition?" And he said, "I don't think so."

TONY JONES: Well, yes, very mildly actually. But the Coalition actually makes the point that he was answering a false question. They claim that he was asked what you would do if they did it inside Indonesian territory, whereas they are saying they wouldn't. They would do it outside of Indonesian territory. So all you would be facing is boats coming back in your direction. Would the President, because he is going to do a press conference tomorrow, we imagine, with Kevin Rudd, is he likely to say this is unacceptable?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: The Indonesian President will not allow himself to be trapped in the debates which are very much related to Australian politics. So I think the most important thing is that regardless of who is in power in Australia, we value the friendship of Australia and the Australian people and we like to be able to work closely with Australia, regardless of who is in power. So I hope very much that Indonesia, Jakarta, doesn't get trapped, you know, into the debate.

TONY JONES: Into taking sides?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Or into taking sides.

TONY JONES: Okay.

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: So we will refrain. I'm sure that President Yudhoyono is a very, very seasoned politician and diplomat, and I'm sure that he will be able to avoid this, in a very Javanese way.

TONY JONES: Okay. Thank you. Let's move along. The audience clearly understands what you mean by that. Let's move it along. Our next question takes us more broadly into the issue of our relationship. It coming from Karina Akib

DO INDONESIANS CARE?

KARINA AKIB: Hi. Two parts to my question. So the first part is: everybody says the relationship is important but it seems like recently it hasn't gone back to the strong points during the heydays of the Keating era. I would like to hear from the panel about why it would be important for younger generations to care about the relationship. And then the second part of the question is actually Dewi, in your paper, A Problem of Mixed Messages, you mentioned that the relationship is very asymmetrical. So, for example, Australians always portray the negative parts about Indonesia in the media, yet if you flick through the papers here, Australia rarely gets a mention in the papers here. So why do you think that is?

TONY JONES: I won't start with Dewi on that, because we've just interviewed you a little bit then. But I would go to Yenny Wahid first. Are the Indonesians elites and Indonesia generally disinterested in Australia and news from Australia?

YENNY WAHID: No, we're just preoccupied with so many things on our table. You know we've got the poverty issue. We've got the corruption issues. We've got so many things. You know even, you know, separatist issues. All sorts of issues that really just preoccupy our mind and when it comes to neighbours, we've got a much more sort of sensitive spot that we give to Malaysia and Singapore, for example. So, you know, for us, Australia it's a neighbour, you know, but except for, you know, East Timor, the East Timor issue, and people don't really pay that much attention to what's going on in Australia unfortunately.

TONY JONES: Let's here from Dimas on that?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: I think, look, all politics is local the way all news is local, whether you're Australian or you're Indonesian. I mean that's the nature of news, that's the nature of people's attention. Physically we're always taught to look front, up and centre. So it's only natural for Indonesians to look up and then for Australians to also look up. We don't really look at what's behind us, do we?

TONY JONES: I like the idea that we're down just because we're south.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: So, I mean, that's part of it. Australia will grab attention when there is a change of leadership, if it has something to do with Kylie Minogue or AC/DC, for example. But other than...

TONY JONES: If it's a change of leadership, you have our attention quite a lot or we have your attention, I should say.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: But then again, as I said, all politics is local. I think what Yenny pointed out was also very interesting. We have a lot more neighbours than you do. You know, we've got Papua New Guinea to our right, we've got Malaysia, Singapore, the Philippines and Brunei, so we've got a lot of friends that are actually bordering on us, as compared to Australia. I mean, you have New Zealand, which you already think is part of Australia, most of the time and then...

TONY JONES: No, don't get us wrong on that one.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: So I think it is a physical, natural habit of the population to look at it that way.

TONY JONES: Dewi, is the relationship asymmetrical, as the questioner asks?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Well, my two colleagues have already answered that. You know, the natural way Australia looks north, rather than to the South Pole or to the happy land of the Kiwis, while we also have much bigger neighbours. Indonesia, being part of ASEAN, ASEAN is, of course, you know, our primary concerns. But we also have concerns with China and Japan and Korea. But I would like to go back to the question about that, you know, whether the relationship between Australia and Indonesia have returned to the heyday of the Keating. You know, the Keating period was much romanticised because of the close relationships between Prime Minister Keating and President Suharto at the time. I would argue that at the moment that Indonesia-Australia relations are probably the best ever in terms of government-to-government relations. There are so many things going on and so many visits from leaders.

TONY JONES: So many leaders to visit, actually, when you think about it.

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Yeah. And so many leaders to visit. But what is different, qualitatively different and also quantitatively different, is that the teaching about Indonesia in Australia used to be of higher priority to the Australian Government and people during the '80s and early '90s than now. Now, you know, it is really, really quite sad that the teaching of Indonesian language and so on is really going down. So at a time when Indonesia is moving very fast and there are some very, very fundamental changes that have taken place in Indonesia since 1998 and forward - Indonesia is becoming the third largest democracy and so on - a lot of our friends in Australia apparently are not as well informed. I'm totally surprised and shocked and saddened - appalled, actually - you know, that's a very strong word - appalled to read the recent Lowy polling that said only about 33% of Australians believe that Indonesia is now a democracy and that they still view Indonesia as a military threat. They still believe that the military is ruling the country.

YENNY WAHID: Or even, in fact, that Bali is part of Indonesia.

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: That we already know. Bali is part of Queensland, you know. So, there is a disjuncture between very close government-to-government relations but there is something missing in the people-to-people relations.

TONY JONES: Let's go to Tim. You've obviously watched this very closely and I'm sure that you must feel quite strongly about what Dewi was just saying.

TIM LINDSEY: Oh yes.

TONY JONES: Particularly the language issue, the teaching of Bahasa in Australia?

TIM LINDSEY: In fact, the underlying thing is that the relationship with Indonesia is schizophrenic. It's bipolar. We have this really close government-to-government relationship, and I agree with Dewi about that and I agree that it's closer now than it was in the so-called heyday of Keating, because that was at a limited level, but government-to-government and even institutionally it is very strong. But then, beyond that, it is extraordinarily weak and this is one of the sources of tensions in the relationship, this gap between public ignorance - and it is ignorance about Australia - and that high-level relationship and eventually that is going to cause tensions and that's why the relationship remains fragile, despite that depth of contact at high level.

TONY JONES: What kind of tensions, when you say that? I mean we heard Kevin Rudd talking about conflict at sea, Konfrontasi over boat people, but what are you talking about when you say tensions?

TIM LINDSEY: Because most Australians didn't notice the democratisation of Indonesia, haven't been aware that it's become this multi-party democratic, liberal, open society with, I was going to say, a free media. I would actually say a feral media. Along with Australia, probably the freest media in the whole of East Asia and this is an entirely new society to the caricatures - I think the President called it preposterous caricatures that dominated in Australian perception under Suharto. But one of the reasons why this is happening and why it's actually getting worse, as the Lowy polls and all the other polling in all sorts of other polls from Crosby, Textor and others all show, it's getting much worse while the government-to-government relationship is getting better, is that Indonesian language is not diminishing, it's actually, somebody said recently, in cardiac arrest. It's almost gone. We have figures, which I can't resist quoting, which is 1972, 1190 kids at Year 12 in Australia - 1972, doing Indonesian - 2010, less than that and that's despite the population increasing by 30% in that time. So we've actually fallen since the '70s, when the white Australia policy was around. So and this is because of a sort of perfect storm that has occurred, universities contracting and cutting small enrolments, but this endless parade of terrible news stories from Indonesia: bombings, disease, the tsunami, earthquakes, it's this image of terrorism and threat, which means that people don't want their kids studying it. And what's happening is we're at the point now within about five years Indonesian language will vanish completely from our schools. By 2020, we will probably have only a couple of universities left in Melbourne and Darwin, on current trends as they stand, still teaching Indonesian. So Indonesian is almost gone and how are we going to handle a relationship with a country that Moody's and Standard & Poor's all say is going to one of the top five economies in the world by 2050 when the US isn't there. Imagine what South East Asia is going to be like then? How are we going to do that if no one can speak Bahasa Indonesia?

TONY JONES: I'm just going to pause our other panellists to go to our next question, which is again on this subject. It's from Marcus Wicken.

HOW DO INDONESIANS SEE AUSTRALIA

MARCUS WICKEN: Yeah. As we've just been hearing, many Australians do think about Indonesians in a very generalised way and about the country in a very generalised way and my own experience here actually illustrates that, because I've often had experiences here living here that have undermined assumptions about the country I didn't even realise I had. But I've also found it is a two-way street and I was interested to hear some of the panel identify some salient beliefs about Australia, accurate or not, that they think are particularly common in wider Indonesian society?

TONY JONES: Okay, let's start with Rafendi. Do you think there are broad beliefs? We talked about misunderstandings about Indonesia but let's put the shoe on the other foot now. Do Indonesians have misunderstandings or perceptions about Australia that are dangerous, if you say, for the relationship?

RAFENDI DJAMIN: I like the notion of the Bs. You know, go beyond beef, boats and Bali. I like that, you know. (Indistinct) the relationship, worry about the three Bs. And still at times it's still playing around and stereotypes are strengthened in Australia by the fact of ignorance, the fact about the education and the culture and language and the fact about ignorance about the last 15 years. The last 15 years there has been so many changes in Indonesia. Indonesia becoming a democracy, it was not even known, you know, by the 30%, according to the survey. And the stereotype from the Indonesian side is actually much more decreasing in the last 15 years. Before it was very much strong. Well, this is a white country. It is a white country. It is not part of Asia and they are always representing the Western interest and they always want to divide Indonesia into pieces, right? East or West Papua.

YULI ISMARTONO: They still do that.

RAFENDI DJAMIN: Some of them, yeah.

TONY JONES: We will come to that particular issue later but, yeah.

RAFENDI DJAMIN: So that stereotype is still strong but it is decreasing. But it is more Indonesia getting more interested to Australia rather than the Australian interested to Indonesia.

TONY JONES: Yuli, President Yudhoyono, when he addressed the Australian Parliament said, quite candidly you would have to say, that some Indonesians remain afflicted with Australiaphobia. Do you think that is correct?

YULI ISMARTONO: Yeah, I think - I would tend to disagree with Rafendi because even though Indonesians think that a western education is too expensive to send them to the US or Europe, you notice they send 17,000 every year go to study in Australia yet, if Indonesians have money, they don't go to Australia as tourists or visits, they go to the USA, Hollywood, Disneyland and they go to London and Europe.

TIM LINDSEY: We're a service provider, that's all we are.

YULI ISMARTONO: Yeah, but they don't, you know.

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Well, they should have Disneyland.

YULI ISMARTONO: That's right. Somebody says because Australia is boring. No way, Australia is very interesting to those who have been there. I don't know, maybe Australia needs to promote itself that it is an interesting, exciting country. Maybe we will have a Bali in Australia and then Indonesian will go there.

TONY JONES: Well, we do. It's called the Gold Coast. But I'll just move on to Yenny. Yenny, what's your view about Indonesian perceptions of Australia? Are there misperceptions? I mean the white Australia policy, obviously, a lot of people still think the country is a white country. It obviously isn't. It is a multicultural country?

YENNY WAHID: Yeah, I think when I asked my driver on the way here, you know, just to get a glimpse of what lay men think of Australia, I asked him, you know, "So what do you think of when you hear the word 'Australia'? What do you think?" He said, "Oh, just white man." Exactly, you know. And...

TONY JONES: Unfortunately, you have one on the panel so - well, two, in fact. So that didn't help.

YENNY WAHID: No, exactly. But also I think our relationship with Australia is pretty much of clouded by the East Timor incident again. I would like to go back to that because I think Indonesia still fears that Australia has a bigger agenda when it comes to our territorial integrity. That, you know, Australia doesn't like a strong Indonesia and that it will do whatever it takes, intelligent ways, to undermine our unity. So there is that sense of suspicion as well, especially among the people related to the military, or even some lay men.

TONY JONES: Yenny, that is an important issue and we are definitely coming to it later, so I will hold you there. We will go to another question. You're watching Q&A live from Jakarta. Our next question is from Nicholas Hughes.

CATTLE AND TRADE

NICHOLAS HUGHES: Indonesia's annoyance at Australia's suspension of the live cattle trade has led to Indonesia implementing a policy of self-sufficiency in beef production. In my view, this policy is clearly unsustainable as we're seeing with rising beef prices and reportedly farmers selling their breeding stock for slaughter. Australian investment in Indonesia's domestic cattle industry would be problematic. A better business model could be for Indonesians to invest in cattle stations in the Top End of Australia. How can we encourage politicians in both Australia and Indonesia to focus on longer-term trade and investment relationships?

TONY JONES: Dewi, can I start with you, and can we just reflect on the fact the Indonesian ambassador to Australia has been travelling around the north to cattle stations in recent days and there is a great hope starting to slowly unfold that there may be some end to this impasse over the live cattle trade. Do you think there will be?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Well, I'm always afraid that I will be asked about the beef, although I'm not an expert about that. The beef issue is very sensitive in Indonesia at the moment, as you know, but it's more a corruption issue rather than this embargo. Though I realise and as a consumer, as a housewife, we are all very complaining about the high price of Indonesian beef now. It's as if we are all eating Wagyu, and rendang is getting to be the most costly food in the world. But the question about import is, as you know, very sensitive in Indonesia. It is always a debate about whether it's food security or food sovereignty. One could argue that we should be talking about food security, in which an element of greater self-reliance is important because for a country as big as Indonesia it is also not very wise to be totally dependent on outsiders, which could be affected by problems of trade, foreign exchange and other disruptions. So Indonesia needs also to be able to grow its own food as much as possible. But, of course, the shortfall should be based on import to ensure that the right of the consumers, the food security, is ensured. So in terms of national policy, the desire to develop an Indonesian beef industry, to grow our own live cattle is important, and Indonesia is big enough. The eastern part of Indonesia has, I think, sufficient land where we can grow the cattle, and here we hope we can have a win-win solution with Australia.

TONY JONES: So just on this issue, though, very briefly, do you think we will see a resolution to this issue? The quotas were cut hugely after the suspension of trade by the Australian Government and that was a pretext, in a way, for certain people in your agricultural ministry to move into this self-sufficiency area. But do you think it will come back again?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: You know, this is tongue-in-cheek. Very few people think about policy in the ministry of agriculture at the moment. So we have other interesting things happening there. So don't hold your breath that any decisive policy would be taken.

TONY JONES: Okay. See a lot of Australians would...

YENNY WAHID: Can I just cut in with that?

TONY JONES: Sorry, go.

YENNY WAHID: I don't think it's realistic for Indonesia to be self-sufficient in terms of our beef production in the near future, so we have to find a solution that will be beneficial for both countries. I think, given the geographical conditions of Indonesia, it's much more costly to raise cattle here than in Australia, for example, because you have to feed the cattle here, whereas in Australia you can just let them loose in the plains - just like Australians in Bali, you know, you let them loose. But I think the best ways - I mean the issue is more than just beef. But it's also about national pride. You know self-sufficiency is about national pride. It's about food security issues and all that. So why don't we just take the approach of building a Toyota of beef. You know, it's a Japanese production but it's the production line is everywhere in so many different countries. But it is still a Japanese company.

TONY JONES: Well, I think that does get to the point the questioner was saying.

YENNY WAHID: Exactly.

TONY JONES: That perhaps investment from Indonesia in the Northern Territory...

YENNY WAHID: Absolutely.

TONY JONES: ...and other parts of Australia might work. But I'm just going to go to Tim. This is slightly mysterious, I'm sure, for a lot of Australians what we were talking about with the agriculture department, what Dewi was saying, but of course what we know is the agriculture department is under the control of one party, an Islamist party, the PKS, a very large party with very few members in the actual Parliament. How did that happen and how does that change the equation?

TIM LINDSEY: Well, that ministry has been really used, and this has become quite clear in a major corruption scandal in Indonesia, as a money-raising exercise, where essentially beef quotas have been auctioned off for corrupt benefit and this has led to a series of trials that are absolutely front page in Indonesian newspapers, the way Australia issues never are. So this party, PKS, which was an electoral wonder child at the last elections, has since experienced a whole range of corruption scandals, including the beef about beef, and it's now polling at around less than 3% so it has pretty much destroyed itself over this issue. That's what the in-jokes tonight have been about. So the problem for Australia in dealing with this is that what we see as essentially a domestic issue about animal cruelty is, in the Indonesian context, about some very difficult issues about politics, about how corruption operates within ministries and, of course, most importantly the forthcoming elections next year with the first presidential election in July, second round in September, so there's going to be this huge changeover of power and what's been going on with these parties has an impact on the beef policy with Australia, but we don't see it that way.

TONY JONES: Yes, I'm going to cut you there because you've forecast what's in our next question. So you're watching a special edition of Q&A, live in Jakarta. The audience is 50% Indonesian, 50% Australian. Our next question is from Savitri Judiono.

CORRUPTION

SAVITRI JUDIONO: How can the government of Indonesia address corruption, given that there is little incentive to do so? Public officials are unsatisfied with their salaries and international development assistance does face its challenges in the area. So what strategy would be the best to address these problems and find a solution, given this climate?

TONY JONES: Dimas. Sorry, I beg your pardon. Thank you. Dimas?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: What a difficult question to me.

TONY JONES: You could solve Indonesia's biggest problem in one minute.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: Easier to answer something about beef, I think. First of all, salaries are not the issue. If we talk about salaries, you know, it will be never-ending. I remember a story once in which the President wanted to raise civil servants' salaries, to the chagrin of another minister, and the President said, "Look, if you pay them peanuts, you will get monkeys." And the response from the minister says, "Yeah, but what happens if you already have monkeys working for you?" So it is not about salaries. It is about a system which we only realised in the last few years which was so embedded within our culture, which was so systemic, that it is taking probably a generation to weed out. And I think the frontrunners in this battle against corruption is the private sector, it is NGOs, civil society, and it is the press, of exposing - continuously exposing these transgressions that occur and slowly but hopefully surely, but slowly, we are getting results. The second thing that needs to happen is, look, we probably - we have no-one to look up to because within our political elite at all levels someone is tied to a corruption case. So it becomes a norm and the saddest part about that is our next generation of Indonesians, who are only learning this democratic system, are saying, "Hey, is this the normal practice?" When you have someone who is 30 years old only working for a few years and has billions and billions of rupiah stashed away somewhere, it becomes a normal culture. So the next election hopefully for us is just to get someone we know is clean. Doesn't have to be the best president in the world, doesn't have to necessarily to be the best manager - we would like to but and a clear decision-maker - but he has some moral authority and I think that's what is lacking in Indonesian society.

TONY JONES: Okay. I want to hear from Yuli now, because your magazine Tempo, we have a program In Australia on the ABC called Four Corners which investigates, quite often, corruption and this is what Tempo seems to do. You have got six or seven investigative journalists and you've actually put yourself on the front line of this debate. Tell us how you've done that and how important it is?

YULI ISMARTONO: Well, it has been our mission to expose as much as possible all acts of corruption. Now, sometimes it gets so tiring because we expose one act of corruption after another, and there doesn't seem to be any point in it because they are still being repeated again and again. But like Dimas said, we're not going to stop. We want to shame them, and it's working. The KPK, the anti-graft commission is slowly doing its job. The problem here is that the rule of law was never really a strong point ever since we started with our democracy. You know, it needs to be - there is something missing and I think that we're talking here about a certain mindset, leadership, the system of education that we've had. You know, all of this is we're still in the process. We're still in - how do you call it - in transition, you know. We're still going towards. And I believe that, in time, maybe not in the next generation but the other generations that, you know, we will learn in time. We have to hope and there has been, besides also answering Dimas, to exposing corruption, which we do every week, really...

TONY JONES: And sometimes to your cost. I mean you have been firebombed.

YULI ISMARTONO: We get sued. We get sued.

TONY JONES: You had editions of the magazine stopped in the streets by police.

YULI ISMARTONO: Stopped.

TONY JONES: And taken off newsstands.

YULI ISMARTONO: That's right. When we exposed the corruption of the police, the police bought all the copies. All the copies. It helped us. When we reprinted, they bought it all up again and, finally, one enterprising vendor in the street started making copies, photo copies, that sold, so we should really be doing more of those kind of things.

TONY JONES: All right. Now, in the interests of getting to quite a few different subjects with the time we have left, we're going to go to Dylan de Los Angeles.

PAPUA - INDONESIAN SENSITIVITY

DYLAN DE LOS ANGELES: Thank you, Tony. My question is for Ibu Dewi in particular. Ibu, Indonesians are often concerned that Australia is supporting separatism in places like Papua. However, most Australians simply believe that peaceful activism, even about controversial topics such as separatism, should not be punished. In many European democracies, such as Spain and Belgium, there are the separatist parties are part of the political mainstream. Another example is the referendum next year for Scotland's independence from the UK. My question is this - sorry: Indonesia wants to be a modern democracy, but why is Indonesia so sensitive about separatism? Thank you.

TONY JONES: Dewi?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Yeah, thank you. I think that is a very important question. And I think it is a reflection that Indonesia has always been very, very vulnerable in terms of its national unity. Indonesia is still in a state of being, both in terms of being trying to create one nation out of this multi-various ethnic groups and so on, and also trying to develop into one territory, because we have over 17,000 islands with very, very poor interconnectivity, so the state itself is still in the state of being also. So Indonesia has always been challenged from within. We have separatist movements ever since, you know, our early days of independence. So trying to keep the country together is a full-time job and most Indonesians are still very, very concerned about national unity.

TONY JONES: Can I just bring you to the Australian side of this? Why is it there is such deep suspicion of the Australian Government motives on this when the Australian Government has signed the Lombok Treaty, which recognises absolutely that the Papua, West Papua and Papua, are part of Indonesia?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: It's not just Australia. Most of the countries in the world have recognised, you know, and always, in fact, affirm their support for Indonesian territorial integrity. But the fact of the matter is that in many, many countries there are also groups which are actively supporting separatist movements in Papua. And Australia becomes a special case here because in the late '50s and early '60s it was known that Australia actually supported the separation of Papua, the Irian, from Indonesia then. There are still long memories here of that. In fact, you know, there is a suggestion that maybe during the Menzies period that Australia could buy Papua. Secondly, during the East Timor period conflict, it was very - most Indonesians still blame Australia, and particularly the military but also with our intellectual community, that the independence of East Timor is, in fact, strongly supported by Australia. So the suspicions are still there.

TONY JONES: Okay. I'm going to bring in another question on this subject. It's actually from a Papuan. It's from Peneas Lokbere.

OPEN PAPUA

PENEAS LOKBERE: Yeah. Thank you very much. I would like to read my question. Why has the government of Indonesia shut down access to the international media and the United Nations Special Rapporteur to enter West Papua? Is the Indonesian state trying to isolate West Papua?

TONY JONES: Yeah, okay. So why has the Government of Indonesia shut down access to the international media and to the United Nations Special Rapporteur to enter West Papua? I will start with Rafendi?

RAFENDI DJAMIN: Well, I would like to go back to this notion of why Indonesia is so sensitive on the word separatists, right? The explanation for me would maybe probably goes back to the 50 years but I would like to go back only on the last 15 and then 30 years of authoritarian regime that applied a security approach with a very harsh way in maintaining the unity. So it is a question of legacy. When it comes to legacy of a previous one, it becomes a mindset. It becomes a mindset which is believed, not only by the military who are in the front line but also among the bureaucracy and among the mainstream politician. So then it becomes a challenge to really change this mindset. What's wrong about separatists, as long as it is an idea, right? That is the example that was given by the question. So it takes time to change this mindset.

TONY JONES: Can I ask you this: does the media block out make things worse? Does it make other countries suspicious about what's going on?

RAFENDI DJAMIN: Yes, indeed. This is 15 years already of change, right? Actually if I am running the country, I would just allow the media to come to West Papua. You know, it's not an issue. And the fact that the Special Rapporteur was not going there, it is still under negotiation. I think my friend Peneas, is referring to the plan that Indonesia is inviting the UN Special Rapporteur freedom of expression. There has been very difficult negotiations on how the modality to come to Indonesia because there is also some tendency from some part of the international committee, too much also focusing on the issue, you know, when actually the issue of freedom of expression is the whole issue of Indonesia as a whole, although we have problems as well, particularly in West Papua, in terms of freedom of expression. Even hoisting flags. For me hoisting flags is an expression of a peaceful way. Why be so harsh and people get sentenced to jail because of hoisting flags.

TONY JONES: Let me bring in Yuli and, once again, I'll get you to focus, if you can, on the Australian angle of this. Because when President Obama announced in the Australian Parliament that US marines were going to be based in Darwin, there was deep suspicion in Indonesia in some quarters and that was about possibly getting West Papua back militarily?

YULI ISMARTONO: There you go. I would like to mention one thing. I feel there is a bias here in Australia about the Papua thing. You call it West Papua. There is two Papuans in Papua. There is a Papua province and the West Papua province. When you say West Papua, which one are you talking about? And let me tell you that in West Papua, the OPM are not as active as in Papua. So that is the irony of it. I am for the press, anyone, going inside Papua so that - and West Papua - so that people can see some of the things that are going on. There is still a lot to do in Papua. The government is lagging behind. The kids are not getting into schools. There is a lot to be done, yes, but there is a lot being done and that's not being shown. If the government was confident enough, they should let it in. Now, I'm told that why the Rapporteur and the foreign media are not allowed in because the then the separatists will give it a reason to do something and create problems. I don't know, but I am all for Papua being opened up so that people can see for themselves the good that's being done.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: Tony?

TONY JONES: Yes.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: I mean, this is not a defence but just as a way of looking at it and understanding the Indonesian psyche: you have to remember that we have only really secured Indonesian borders for less than 30 years, 40 years or so, and our history has always been about being divided by foreign Western countries, and powers for 350 years. So there is...

TONY JONES: So does that account for the suspicion about the US marines in Darwin?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: I think there is always an inherent fear being taught, but at the age of our children, our children are being taught about the unitary state as we speak and being taught about Indonesian history and foreign colonial powers always separating and dividing Indonesia. So that sinks into the Indonesian psyche and why we look at things and foreign powers as a way of separating. That's how we conduct our foreign policy is about how do we manage ourselves? That is not a defence but that's trying to understand the Indonesian psyche. The other part - again it's not a defence - but I agree that Papua should be opened up. But if you look at the actual number of requests of media going into Papua, I think over the last five years, as far as I know, 90%-plus have been approved.

YULI ISMARTONO: Yes, that's right.

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: All the foreign media that wanted to go to Papua have been approved and those 5% or even less that did not get approved was usually because they had administrative issues with regards with their permission. So it's not a defence but just putting...

TONY JONES: Before you come in, I'm just going to go to another question. It's from Binsar Manurung. Binsar Manurung. Over there. There we go.

UNITY IN DIVERSITY

BINSAR MANURUNG: On this issue, I would like to step back with a bigger perspective and ask is 'Bhinneka Tunggal Ika; an impossible dream? Is Indonesia too diverse? The former Yugoslavia is a clear example of an nation failing because its national borders didn't reflect the true aspirations of its various people. Nobody can doubt strength in unity but how can a country truly progress if the foundation is based on inevitable political compromising and no one true common goal? Could the panellists give their opinion on what one issue could actually unite all Indonesians?

TONY JONES: Let's start with Yenny on that?

YENNY WAHID: Yeah, I mean, the notion of Indonesia some debate that's it's not really - it is a notion that it's created, you know, out of nothing, conjured up by some historians and then created to be Indonesia but, you know, we are very diverse culturally and different people, people in Java and people in Papua look very different and talk very differently. But, you know, I think Bhinneka Tunggal Ika is viable and it will remain in my...

TONY JONES: Could you explain to the Australian audience what that means?

YENNY WAHID: Okay. It is unity in diversity. It's our national motto. It's what unites us together and that's the basis of our principles of this nation and there has been criticism that there are some attacks on it. You know, some people have been finding ways or acting in ways that would disunite this unity, but I think it will remain as our principle, sort of our basic principles of this country, and apart from the Bhinneka Tunggal Ika, we also have many factors that unite us. You know, for example, the Bahasa. I mean without Bahasa we would not be able to communicate with one another. The people in Papua, for example, they consisted of so many different tribes and so many different languages. There are more than 300 spoken languages and dialects in Indonesia, so without Bahasa they wouldn't be able to communicate with one another, but it takes more than just talking about it also, of course. It takes for Indonesians to really adhere to that principle, and that is our real challenge.

TONY JONES: We've just got a brief time, because we are running out of time. We would like to get to one or two other questions but your view on that. Is there one common goal, one common thread?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: I'm beginning to be very optimistic about Indonesia. I've always been very optimistic but I remember in 1988/1989 when Indonesia was enduring this very, very difficult crisis, many people believed from outside (TRANSMISSION FAULT) the former Soviet Union, like Yugoslavia and especially with separatist movements in Aceh and Papua at the time and Jakarta seems to be really, you know, imploding with violence everywhere. But I was a strong believer then in the eye of the storm, because I was in the office of President Habibi, that Indonesia came about out of a dream, the dream of and imagined community of these people with diversity but within a unity, that we want to achieve happiness together, prosperity together, security together, and that we were not united by the military. The military came about later. But the idea of Indonesia was very, very strong. It preceded the idea of the Indonesian state. So because of that dream, I think that we continue to survive together, although it continues to be challenged and I don't think we should take unity for granted. After all, the Roman Empire still broke up after 1,000 years and over, so I don't think we can take any unity for granted.

TIM LINDSEY: You've got a bit of time then still.

TONY JONES: Here's a question. I'm going to just jump in because we really have to get through our last two questions quickly and this is one from, and it will require translation, but it's from Eka Ernawati

PRABOWO

EKA ERNAWATI: You translate. (Speaks Indonesian)

TONY JONES: Okay. We will go for our translation, thank you very much.

TRANSLATOR: There are still many human right abuses in Indonesia and corruption is a big problem.

EKA ERNAWATI: (Speaks Indonesian)

TONY JONES: Thank you. We better go to our translator again there, sorry.

TRANSLATOR: Prabowo Subianto is a candidate for the election as president in the elections coming up next year but he is suspected of involvement in the human rights abuses in Trisakti in 1998.

TONY JONES: Okay. We might get you to wind up your question quickly. Go ahead.

EKA ERNAWATI: (Speaks Indonesian)

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: That's the question we'd like to ask.

TONY JONES: Okay. For our audience in Australia, we better get the translation?

TRANSLATION: How will this affect relations between Australia and Indonesia if in the future Prabowo becomes the president of Indonesia.

TONY JONES: Okay. Tim Lindsay, I'll just start with you. We'll keep our answers brief. It's hard because Prabowo is quite a notorious figure in the world.

TIM LINDSEY: Prabowo is a cashier general who was thrown out of the army for his involvement in human rights abuses in 1998.

TONY JONES: And he's a strong candidate for president.

TIM LINDSEY: And a former son-in-law of President Suharto, so, you know, we've got a zombie Prime Minister in Australia back from the dead. Prabowo has got a hope too, I would have thought, in Indonesia. He, at the moment, is one of the most popular candidates. I think he has been polling right up the top of all the candidates. There is the possibility the current mayor of Jakarta, if he runs, might be the only person who could beat Prabowo. So the US has refused Prabowo a visa entry on human rights issues. If he becomes President, look, it's going to be a serious problem for Indonesia's image right around the world internationally and it will be read by many as a return to nationalist military-oriented past. Now, whether the system allows that to happen, whether he is elected is one question. The second question is whether the democratic process that has been put in place would contain and control such a leader in Indonesia. Maybe it could but it certainly would cause significant international problems.

TONY JONES: Okay, brief answers all around. Rafendi?

RAFENDI DJAMIN: Yes, indeed, whoever the President is, even if Prabowo becomes President, there is something you cannot stop, that's the lay down - the foundation of democracy is already there, that means even Prabowo will have to deal with this. He will have to deal with the forces of the civil society, with the forces of a vibrant media, with the forces of all kind of parameters of democracy. If he is trying to stop it, he will go down.

TONY JONES: Yuli, you heard the sort of frisson of laughter and I would say uncomfortable laughter when the name was mentioned but it is a real possibility that he could be president?

YULI ISMARTONO: No, I have faith in the Indonesian constituency. Let's have the elections and I'm willing to bet money that he is not going to make it.

TONY JONES: Yenny?

YENNY WAHID: Well, you know, I go down to the grassroots very often and I would testify that Prabowo is an immensely popular figure. What Tim said is right. The only one who can beat him is the governor of Jakarta but if he is not running, then Prabowo would certainly win the election. There are attempts by many political parties to try to block him from running because his party will not be able to get the 20%. I think from today's polling it suggests that he will not be able to get the 20% votings necessary for him to get nominated. But if he does or if he can call up coalition together, then he might be the primary contender.

TONY JONES: I will just hear from Dewi on this briefly because we've really got time for one last question after this and we need to move on to it.

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: I think it would be a major challenge both within Indonesia and also Indonesia's relations with many, many countries. But this is a major question in democracy. Democracies do not always yield the best results. So anything can happen because in a democracy it is not the best that gets elected but the most popular. And as Yenny said, the view of sophisticated urbanites are sometimes quite different from the views from people in the rural area. But on the other hand, the question remains Indonesia is only going to become stronger, hopefully. Indonesia is already a member of the G20 and it's a member of many, many international organisations.

TONY JONES: Dewi, you're almost forecasting our last question, so I'll interrupt you. We've got time for this one last question. It comes from Alisa Pedrana.

INDONESIAN SUPERPOWER

ALISA PEDRANA: It is predicted that by 2030 Indonesia will have the 10th largest economy in the world. Who will be their allies as they rise to a new super status power? Will it be their regional neighbours Australia and other South East Asian countries or their Muslim brothers in Malaysia and the Middle East?

TONY JONES: Dimas

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: Who will be our allies?

TONY JONES: Yeah. Who will you be closest to in the future?

DEWI FORTUNA ANWA: Who are we allied to now?

DIMAS SURYODININGRAT: Well, if you leave it to SBY, we will have zero enemies. But I think whether now or then, 2015, 2050, I think our allies and by our primary allies will be countries which we share common values with. You know, economic development only goes so far and that's why I think we should look at Indonesian-Australian relationships in a positive manner because I think we're going from the same starting point now, which is we are both democracies. We respect human rights and civil rights. It's not perfect but we look at it the same way. There is a long way to go. So I think it will still be that those countries with common values with Indonesia.

TONY JONES: Okay. We're in danger of losing our satellite. Tim, a brief answer?

TIM LINDSEY: I think Indonesia and Australia are not yet fully aware that they're actually natural partners. In this new world that's emerging with the rise of China and US, we will both end up being countries that aren't entirely committed to either of those but which need both of them. We are both going to be democracies. We are both going to be open liberal societies. We've both got problems. We are actually natural strategic partners and are going to be forced into this partnership, whether we like it or not, so we should try and do it well and quick.

TONY JONES: I think that's actually a good place for us to leave it. That's all we have time for tonight. Please thank our panel: Yenny Wahid, Dimas, Dewi Fortuna Anwar, Yuli Ismartono, Rafendi Djamin and Tim Lindsey.

Thank you. Thank you very much. And a very special thanks to our wonderful audience here in Jakarta and our partners at Metro TV News and ABC International. Please give yourself a quick round of applause.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Have to get in before the satellite leaves. Next Monday night we're back in Australia with the new Deputy Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, Coalition frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull, writer and comedian Corinne Grant, The Australian's cartoonist Bill Leak and policy analyst Miriam Lyons. Until then, selamat malam dan sampai jumpa.