“ ‘Progress is all about the realization of utopias... We know that every milestone of civilization — the end of slavery, democracy, equal rights for women — were all utopian fantasies in the past.’ ”

That’s Dutch historian Rutger Bregman — the guy who tangled with Fox News host Tucker Carlson earlier this year — talking with Vox’s Ezra Klein about what it takes to realize the perfect society.

“Every utopian vision starts with the injustices of today,” Bregman said. “For example, nowadays there are millions of people working in jobs that they don’t really care about. They’re writing reports that no one’s ever going to read or building financial products that only destroy wealth.”

What will help change all that? Perhaps it’s a “radically shorter working week,” or maybe it’s a basic income. Bregman, who wrote “Utopia for Realists,” says it’s about recognizing the problems we’re facing and addressing them.

“We need to move to a much more hopeful vision of human nature because, otherwise, you can’t do any of these things,” he said. “You become a cynic and a political change becomes impossible.”

Bregman says universal basic income, where everybody starts by getting enough to live on, is all about freedom to make choices and unlocking potential, and it could potentially go a long way in righting some current wrongs.

“If we actually rewarded people for the value of the work they do, I think that many bankers would earn a negative salary while many nurses and teachers will be millionaires,” he said. “This is one of the most important effects of a guaranteed basic income. If you actually give those garbage collectors and nurses and teachers more bargaining power, they can always go on strike. And we know what happens when the garbage collectors go on strike — it’s a terrible disaster.”

Bregman went on to make the case for open borders.

“I think you can easily make the argument that borders are the biggest source of inequality world-wide,” he said. “60% of your income is dependent simply on where you were born — something that you didn’t choose.”

He explained that most of the anti-immigration bullet points — they’ll take our jobs, they’re lazy, they’re criminals, etc. — don’t stand up to the data.

“200 years from now, borders and the way we treat animals will rank among our biggest crimes,” Bregman said.

Listen to the whole podcast: