[HotS] Top 5 GOAT - Team Edition Text by TL.net ESPORTS



Team Edition









With HGC drawing to a close, it’s a good time to look back at the greatest champions of all time. Whether heroes or villains, technical masters or passionate underdogs, these are the teams that built the competitive scene and made a lasting impression on the game’s history.



You may remember our GOAT article from 2017 chronicling the greatest teams up to that point. Curious how they stand compared to now?



Criteria



The three main things we’re looking for are: The level of dominance



The length of competitive career



The team’s ability to create memorable moments

First off, the level of dominance is a pretty straightforward and essential metric. How much did this team win, and how hard did they win? It’s not just about consistency or the number of top appearances; it’s all about the gold. And what’s more, we’re looking for flawless victories, not just barely scraping by with first place.



Second, the length of the team’s competitive career is important. For this article, we’re going to be ranking teams spanning their entire career, not just individual rosters. This is partly because MVP Black would probably take up all five spots otherwise, but also partly because some teams have transcended different metas, different rosters, and entirely different tournament formats to maintain a lasting legacy that will never truly tarnish.



Finally, a great team leaves us with great memories. Teams not only need to wow us, they need to inspire us by creating memorable moments. This aspect is obviously much more difficult to measure as an accurate metric, but it’s important enough to include nonetheless.









#1 GOAT MVP Black

No surprise here.



MVP Black (later KSV Black and Gen.G) is by far the most successful team in competitive HotS history, from beginning to end. Throughout their entire career, they played 16 premier LANs—where they were the favorites to win every one—and 10 times out of 16, they delivered and took home the gold. To this day, they still retain the record for the longest win streak ever: 41 straight maps during Spring 2016. It’s no wonder they were nominated for all three of our



MVP Black’s history can be split into two distinct eras: the Lockdown era and the Rich era. The early roster of MVP Black was nothing short of incredible. Superstar players Lockdown, Sake, and Sign ran over the competition with their aggressive mechanical play and set the bar for skill level at the highest levels. Black’s macro play developed far sooner than their counterparts in the East and rivaled the macro play of the best teams in the west.



At the end of 2015, former badboy “Oreoman” joined the team under a new moniker in order to change his identity.



Was MVP Black mortal at times? Yeah, they definitely dropped a series or two and even lost a few tournaments. From their inexplicable loss to Team DK in 2015 to their memorable losses to Tempest, Ballistix, and Fnatic, MVP Black is not without flaws. But crucially, these losses were the result of other teams rising to the occasion—not because MVP Black played poorly.



Despite their losses, Black always bounced back stronger than ever. If we remember one thing about the HotS competitive history, it should be that Black was always there, always waiting—and they rarely came out on the losing end.





#2 Dignitas

At this point, Dignitas has cemented their place in history as the greatest western team in HotS history. With the most medals and prize money of any western team, they have retained a high level of play and understanding of the game for a solid three years across multiple rosters. They definitely deserve this spot.



From the very beginning as Bob Question Mark, Dignitas set themselves up as a serious competitor not only in Europe but on the global stage. 2016 resulted in a year of regional domination equivalent only to MVP Black’s reign in Korea, with 3 out of 3 first place finishes in the qualifiers and 3 out of 3 victories in the European circuit. Based on those numbers alone, Dignitas was actually the most successful team in the world in 2016.



Fnatic pulled ahead of them by the end of 2017, but Dignitas stayed competitive and rebounded in 2018 with some of the best HGC records to date and both Western Clash victories. Unfortunately, Gen.G cut them short in both the Mid-Season Brawl and at BlizzCon, but it was clear that Dignitas was on the same level.



Some of the most iconic and well known players emerged from Dignitas as well. Bakery, known for his incredible prowess on support, went out of his way to get involved in the community, voice thoughts and opinions on the game, and help out in almost every project he could get his hands on. Snitch built up a





#3 Team Liquid

Out of all the teams here, Team Liquid has gone through perhaps the most iterations. Between the original 2014 roster led by former SC2 pro Sheth to the Team Liquid we know today headlined by flex-support Nurok and long-time pro HasuObs, they have sported some of the most creative and talented players on the planet. The tradition of creative picks and playstyles was passed down from generation to generation, and while some rosters peaked and others hit multiple nosedives, Team Liquid never left us with a dull moment.



The trademark style of Liquid revolved around unique picks and strategies. Who can forget Lowell’s hipster Thrall? Or



The single most important era of Team Liquid is during the Summer of 2015, when brothers Lucifron and Vortix went on a rampage across the European scene and dominated for 4 months straight with almost no resistance whatsoever. Though they later faltered against the surprisingly good and then-unknown team Bob Question Mark on the Road to BlizzCon, Team Liquid was undoubtedly among the top 3 in the world at that point in time.



Though the team never quite reached those heights again, they continued to play rather consistently across several different rosters. The so-called Liquid Curse prevented them from ever breaking into the top again, but over three more years, they managed to stay on the radar as a solid 3rd/4th place team in Europe.



So why is Liquid ranked at #3? Because they blow other teams out of the water when it comes to memorable moments. Off-meta picks are just the start. They have provided us with some of the closest and most exciting series in the history of HotS, like the





#4 Ballistix

Like Team Liquid, Ballistix also has a legacy. It’s easy to remember Ballistix as the second best team in Korea, but you have to remember their roots and their journey to put everything into perspective.



The roots of Ballistix can be traced all the way back to 2014 when a group of retired SC2 players (one of them a GSL champion) formed Team No Limit (TNL). TNL wasn’t a particularly precocious team, but they quickly improved and (with the sponsorship of Team DK) went on to BlizzCon 2015 to play against Cloud9 in one of the most famous matches of all time.



Team DK eventually went under, and TNL played for a few months before disbanding, but the passion for competitive gaming lived on in the hearts of Noblesse and sCsC. Along with leftover players from dissolved orgs such as Team AsD and Team Hero, they formed the Lost 5, also known as L5, and tore through the competition in late 2016. Out of nowhere, these five abandoned players



Their playstyle has always been straightforward and simple. They draft standard, take good fights, exhibit god-tier macro, and simply win through pure efficiency. Stylistically, they are the epitome of Korean work ethic—an obsession with improving upon the fundamentals until everything is close to perfect. Watching Ballistix play is like watching the workings of a clock—everything perfectly measured, perfectly paced, and slowly ticking away until the victory screen. While their style may have been unimpressionable at times, there’s no doubt that Ballistix is one of the best teams of all time.





#5 Tempo Storm

This team must absolutely be credited for their contributions to HotS. In the Western world, Tempo Storm was the progenitor of it all. They invented macro play as we know it, they defined the roles we use in competitive play today, and they were a huge part in getting the competitive Heroes scene started in its infancy.



Lauded as the



6 months later came the reboot. The revamped Murloc Geniuses squad led by CauthonLuck signed with Tempo Storm and quickly became the hottest team in North America. Using safe, macro-style drafts, the team rediscovered its roots in slow, methodical play amid the chaotic landscape of the North American meta. Though several roster changes plagued the team throughout 2018, they remained a threat and never truly disappeared from the top of the North American leaderboards.



In the end, Tempo Storm clocks in as the best team in North America for three years out of four, making them undeniably one of the greatest teams of all time. As a cool bonus, Tempo Storm sponsored Tempest for three months in between North American rosters.







Honorable Mentions



Cloud9

Cloud9 had an inspiring run from August 2015 to March 2016 where they finally surpassed their North American rivals Tempo Storm and conquered the world at BlizzCon 2015. No one will ever forget



Fnatic

Fnatic was so, so close to making it on the list, but what held them back was a lackluster 2018. Fnatic’s surprise win at DreamHack Winter in late 2015 was the beginning of a promising history. 2016 went well too, as they steadily improved and stood side by side with mYinsanity/Misfits and Dignitas (well, a little lower than DIG), but 2017 was really their breakout year.



Tempest

How could Tempest not get mentioned? The dream team created by brothers Hide and Lockdown shook the world in summer 2016 by beating MVP Black twice in some of the most important tournaments of the year.



HeroesHearth

Roll20 (Team 8), Gale Force, and Team Freedom all deserve a shoutout, but HeroesHearth ends up being the winner simply because they captured our hearts like no other North American team did. Reminiscent of the classic Barrel Boys back in 2015, HeroesHearth built off-the-wall strategies and executed them with a very high level of precision. The organization itself has contributed so much to the community with their social media site, and the community presence of Khroen, McIntyre, and even Arthelon cannot be understated. In addition, the team was also filled with some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet; if you didn’t get a chance to meet them at a HeroesHype party, you’ve missed out.



eStar Gaming

The Beast from the East! eStar had a relatively short but explosive career. The original roster led by xia0t and NccCc was undoubtedly one of the greatest teams of its time, and certainly the best team in China. Counting up all of their titles in 2015 including qualifiers and minor tournaments, they have 23 gold medals and 4 silvers, placing them in second behind Team Liquid for the most titles in one year. However, Summer 2016 marks the complete collapse of the pro scene in China. In rapidfire succession, EDG, Braveheart, OMG, Team YL, and eStar all disbanded and left a huge void at the top of the leaderboards. Though eStar reformed later with an all-new roster (although with the notable absence of Tumi) and limped through 2017, the world superpower that we knew in 2015 was gone.













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With HGC drawing to a close, it’s a good time to look back at the greatest champions of all time. Whether heroes or villains, technical masters or passionate underdogs, these are the teams that built the competitive scene and made a lasting impression on the game’s history.You may remember our GOAT article from 2017 chronicling the greatest teams up to that point. Curious how they stand compared to now? Check it out! The three main things we’re looking for are:First off, the level of dominance is a pretty straightforward and essential metric. How much did this team win, and how hard did they win? It’s not just about consistency or the number of top appearances; it’s all about the gold. And what’s more, we’re looking for flawless victories, not just barely scraping by with first place.Second, the length of the team’s competitive career is important. For this article, we’re going to be ranking teams spanning their entire career, not just individual rosters. This is partly because MVP Black would probably take up all five spots otherwise, but also partly because some teams have transcended different metas, different rosters, and entirely different tournament formats to maintain a lasting legacy that will never truly tarnish.Finally, a great team leaves us with great memories. Teams not only need to wow us, they need to inspire us by creating memorable moments. This aspect is obviously much more difficult to measure as an accurate metric, but it’s important enough to include nonetheless.No surprise here.MVP Black (later KSV Black and Gen.G) is by far the most successful team in competitive HotS history, from beginning to end. Throughout their entire career, they played 16 premier LANs—where they were the favorites to win every one—and 10 times out of 16, they delivered and took home the gold. To this day, they still retain the record for the longest win streak ever: 41 straight maps during Spring 2016. It’s no wonder they were nominated for all three of our best series of all time back in 2017. Three and a half years of sheer global domination combined with a history of outstanding players make this team the #1 by far.MVP Black’s history can be split into two distinct eras: the Lockdown era and the Rich era. The early roster of MVP Black was nothing short of incredible. Superstar players Lockdown, Sake, and Sign ran over the competition with their aggressive mechanical play and set the bar for skill level at the highest levels. Black’s macro play developed far sooner than their counterparts in the East and rivaled the macro play of the best teams in the west.At the end of 2015, former badboy “Oreoman” joined the team under a new moniker in order to change his identity. And without a doubt, he did . Praised as the single greatest mechanical player in Korea, Rich astounded us with his jaw-dropping plays on Thrall, Illidan, and a host of high-impact melee assassins. From here, Black got even better. Spring 2016 was the most brutal era of domination ever for Black, later rivaled only by their run in late 2018.Was MVP Black mortal at times? Yeah, they definitely dropped a series or two and even lost a few tournaments. From their inexplicable loss to Team DK in 2015 to their memorable losses to Tempest, Ballistix, and Fnatic, MVP Black is not without flaws. But crucially, these losses were the result of other teams rising to the occasion—not because MVP Black played poorly.Despite their losses, Black always bounced back stronger than ever. If we remember one thing about the HotS competitive history, it should be that Black was always there, always waiting—and they rarely came out on the losing end.At this point, Dignitas has cemented their place in history as the greatest western team in HotS history. With the most medals and prize money of any western team, they have retained a high level of play and understanding of the game for a solid three years across multiple rosters. They definitely deserve this spot.From the very beginning as Bob Question Mark, Dignitas set themselves up as a serious competitor not only in Europe but on the global stage. 2016 resulted in a year of regional domination equivalent only to MVP Black’s reign in Korea, with 3 out of 3 first place finishes in the qualifiers and 3 out of 3 victories in the European circuit. Based on those numbers alone, Dignitas was actually the most successful team in the world in 2016.Fnatic pulled ahead of them by the end of 2017, but Dignitas stayed competitive and rebounded in 2018 with some of the best HGC records to date and both Western Clash victories. Unfortunately, Gen.G cut them short in both the Mid-Season Brawl and at BlizzCon, but it was clear that Dignitas was on the same level.Some of the most iconic and well known players emerged from Dignitas as well. Bakery, known for his incredible prowess on support, went out of his way to get involved in the community, voice thoughts and opinions on the game, and help out in almost every project he could get his hands on. Snitch built up a huge following as a streamer and became one of the most outspoken critics of the game using his platform. The point? Dignitas is important as an organization too because these guys not only participated in the pro scene, but actively worked to transform the game into something better.Out of all the teams here, Team Liquid has gone through perhaps the most iterations. Between the original 2014 roster led by former SC2 pro Sheth to the Team Liquid we know today headlined by flex-support Nurok and long-time pro HasuObs, they have sported some of the most creative and talented players on the planet. The tradition of creative picks and playstyles was passed down from generation to generation, and while some rosters peaked and others hit multiple nosedives, Team Liquid never left us with a dull moment.The trademark style of Liquid revolved around unique picks and strategies. Who can forget Lowell’s hipster Thrall? Or Vortix’s unmatchable Vikings play ? What about dar’umbi? With the exception of perhaps Zealots, no other team in Europe has ever come close to matching their off-the-wall drafting, and only the best of the best could keep up with their macro-centric style.The single most important era of Team Liquid is during the Summer of 2015, when brothers Lucifron and Vortix went on a rampage across the European scene and dominated for 4 months straight with almost no resistance whatsoever. Though they later faltered against the surprisingly good and then-unknown team Bob Question Mark on the Road to BlizzCon, Team Liquid was undoubtedly among the top 3 in the world at that point in time.Though the team never quite reached those heights again, they continued to play rather consistently across several different rosters. The so-called Liquid Curse prevented them from ever breaking into the top again, but over three more years, they managed to stay on the radar as a solid 3rd/4th place team in Europe.So why is Liquid ranked at #3? Because they blow other teams out of the water when it comes to memorable moments. Off-meta picks are just the start. They have provided us with some of the closest and most exciting series in the history of HotS, like the series against Gen.G at BlizzCon . As much as they disappointed, when they were on form it was a spectacle like no other. And that’s why I have to give them the #3 spot.Like Team Liquid, Ballistix also has a legacy. It’s easy to remember Ballistix as the second best team in Korea, but you have to remember their roots and their journey to put everything into perspective.The roots of Ballistix can be traced all the way back to 2014 when a group of retired SC2 players (one of them a GSL champion) formed Team No Limit (TNL). TNL wasn’t a particularly precocious team, but they quickly improved and (with the sponsorship of Team DK) went on to BlizzCon 2015 to play against Cloud9 in one of the most famous matches of all time.Team DK eventually went under, and TNL played for a few months before disbanding, but the passion for competitive gaming lived on in the hearts of Noblesse and sCsC. Along with leftover players from dissolved orgs such as Team AsD and Team Hero, they formed the Lost 5, also known as L5, and tore through the competition in late 2016. Out of nowhere, these five abandoned players defeated MVP Black and went on to win the world championship without breaking a sweat. Since then, they remained top competitors for the better part of two years, taking multiple wins off MVP Black and Tempest.Their playstyle has always been straightforward and simple. They draft standard, take good fights, exhibit god-tier macro, and simply win through pure efficiency. Stylistically, they are the epitome of Korean work ethic—an obsession with improving upon the fundamentals until everything is close to perfect. Watching Ballistix play is like watching the workings of a clock—everything perfectly measured, perfectly paced, and slowly ticking away until the victory screen. While their style may have been unimpressionable at times, there’s no doubt that Ballistix is one of the best teams of all time.This team must absolutely be credited for their contributions to HotS. In the Western world, Tempo Storm was the progenitor of it all. They invented macro play as we know it, they defined the roles we use in competitive play today, and they were a huge part in getting the competitive Heroes scene started in its infancy.Lauded as the greatest team in the west and perhaps the world (though we later found out they were, at best, second after MVP Black), Tempo Storm had so much going for them with their early roster. Unfortunately, team tensions grew to a toxic level and forced a second iteration led by Kaeyoh. The loss of god-tier players like Zuna, Dreadnaught, and So1dier was devastating though. Cycling through some of the new HotS talent like erho, Tomster, Zixz, and ladder superstar Srey, the newest roster couldn’t make the same impression and eventually disbanded.6 months later came the reboot. The revamped Murloc Geniuses squad led by CauthonLuck signed with Tempo Storm and quickly became the hottest team in North America. Using safe, macro-style drafts, the team rediscovered its roots in slow, methodical play amid the chaotic landscape of the North American meta. Though several roster changes plagued the team throughout 2018, they remained a threat and never truly disappeared from the top of the North American leaderboards.In the end, Tempo Storm clocks in as the best team in North America for three years out of four, making them undeniably one of the greatest teams of all time. As a cool bonus, Tempo Storm sponsored Tempest for three months in between North American rosters.Cloud9 had an inspiring run from August 2015 to March 2016 where they finally surpassed their North American rivals Tempo Storm and conquered the world at BlizzCon 2015. No one will ever forget the “undying” composition of Murky/Leoric used to confound Team DK and ultimately take a win over the Koreans. Unfortunately, the roster took a nosedive in 2017 and quickly disappeared from notoriety. While the talent from Cloud9 moved on to new teams, they were never able to replicate the success at the height of their career.Fnatic was so, so close to making it on the list, but what held them back was a lackluster 2018. Fnatic’s surprise win at DreamHack Winter in late 2015 was the beginning of a promising history. 2016 went well too, as they steadily improved and stood side by side with mYinsanity/Misfits and Dignitas (well, a little lower than DIG), but 2017 was really their breakout year. Their victory at the Mid-Season Brawl was spectacular, and they rode the momentum all the way to the Grand Finals at BlizzCon vs MVP Black. The all-Swedish roster spearheaded by Breez and Quackniix is still one of the most memorable rosters in terms of both success and sheer charisma How could Tempest not get mentioned? The dream team created by brothers Hide and Lockdown shook the world in summer 2016 by beating MVP Black twice in some of the most important tournaments of the year. The finals between the two at DreamHack Summer is still considered one of the best series of all time. While Tempest remained relevant throughout 2017 and 2018, they more or less played second fiddle to L5/Ballistix, and that’s where they sunk under the radar. Kudos to Tempest for setting the record on the most logo iterations in the HGC, though.Roll20 (Team 8), Gale Force, and Team Freedom all deserve a shoutout, but HeroesHearth ends up being the winner simply because they captured our hearts like no other North American team did. Reminiscent of the classic Barrel Boys back in 2015, HeroesHearth built off-the-wall strategies and executed them with a very high level of precision. The organization itself has contributed so much to the community with their social media site, and the community presence of Khroen, McIntyre, and even Arthelon cannot be understated. In addition, the team was also filled with some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet; if you didn’t get a chance to meet them at a HeroesHype party, you’ve missed out.The Beast from the East! eStar had a relatively short but explosive career. The original roster led by xia0t and NccCc was undoubtedly one of the greatest teams of its time, and certainly the best team in China. Counting up all of their titles in 2015 including qualifiers and minor tournaments, they have 23 gold medals and 4 silvers, placing them in second behind Team Liquid for the most titles in one year. However, Summer 2016 marks the complete collapse of the pro scene in China. In rapidfire succession, EDG, Braveheart, OMG, Team YL, and eStar all disbanded and left a huge void at the top of the leaderboards. Though eStar reformed later with an all-new roster (although with the notable absence of Tumi) and limped through 2017, the world superpower that we knew in 2015 was gone.

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #2 Idk man about these rankings. Fnatic imo deserves 100% to be above both TL and Tempo. Also TL #3 over Ballistix? How many world championships did each team win again?



Overall though, I do enjoy these articles and very cool, thanks for writing it up! Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

Freeedom Profile Joined March 2010 United States 172 Posts #3 who was the GSL SC2 champ that was part of Ballistix history? PSISTORM Gaming owner - twitter.com/karljayg - facebook.com/KJfreeedom

Zambrah Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United States 4711 Posts #4



TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list As much as I despise teams and players that just dominate scenes and look untouchable, I really think Fnatic >>>> TeamLiquid, I mean ran roughshod over EU for what felt like an eternity, the fact that I actively hoped they'd lose in every match of theirs I watched is usually a good indicator of dominance.TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list "I believe thats why rohanna was so eager not to sever the bond in the campaign. What man could pleasure her perverted desires without the khala?" -whelkor

Ej_ Profile Blog Joined January 2013 47288 Posts #5 On January 10 2019 05:49 Freeedom wrote:

who was the GSL SC2 champ that was part of Ballistix history?

Sniper "Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #6 On January 10 2019 07:03 Zambrah wrote:

TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list



I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.

I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4831 Posts #7 On January 10 2019 07:11 Ej_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2019 05:49 Freeedom wrote:

who was the GSL SC2 champ that was part of Ballistix history?

https://liquipedia.net/heroes/Sniper



Who?



Honestly, what's more stunning about that fun fact is the realization that Hyun was a GSL runner-up. Thank god for Broodlords BlessRNG Who?Honestly, what's more stunning about that fun fact is the realization that Hyun was a GSL runner-up. Thank god for Broodlords BlessRNG Strategy

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4831 Posts #8 On January 10 2019 07:18 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2019 07:03 Zambrah wrote:

TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list



I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.

I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.



I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias. I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias. Strategy

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #9 On January 10 2019 07:23 EsportsJohn wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2019 07:18 Diamond wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:03 Zambrah wrote:

TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list



I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.

I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.



I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias. I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias.



I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4831 Posts #10 On January 10 2019 07:37 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2019 07:23 EsportsJohn wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:18 Diamond wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:03 Zambrah wrote:

TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list



I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.

I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.



I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias. I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias.



I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone.



I wrote it. It was all my ranking. I believe that the rankings are entirely appropriate given the criteria set forth in the introduction, and that the end result is a list that allows several different teams to shine based on various shades of greatness. You can disagree with me; that's cool.



Whatever the situation, I would prefer you think less of me than devalue the hard work and effort put into making this site possible and all of the content that's come out over the last few years. Imagine if I said something like that about Ballistix just because I didn't agree with you. You cross a dangerous line when you start to accuse the entire organization of bending facts and reshaping history to garner more views. I do not like that. I might be overreacting, but that's a pretty serious accusation that I want to stamp out right now. I wrote it. It was all my ranking. I believe that the rankings are entirely appropriate given the criteria set forth in the introduction, and that the end result is a list that allows several different teams to shine based on various shades of greatness. You can disagree with me; that's cool.Whatever the situation, I would prefer you think less of me than devalue the hard work and effort put into making this site possible and all of the content that's come out over the last few years. Imagine if I said something like that about Ballistix just because I didn't agree with you. You cross a dangerous line when you start to accuse the entire organization of bending facts and reshaping history to garner more views. I do not like that. I might be overreacting, but that's a pretty serious accusation that I want to stamp out right now. Strategy

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts Last Edited: 2019-01-09 23:28:24 #11 On January 10 2019 08:08 EsportsJohn wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2019 07:37 Diamond wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:23 EsportsJohn wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:18 Diamond wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:03 Zambrah wrote:

TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list



I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.

I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.



I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias. I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias.



I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone.



I wrote it. It was all my ranking. I believe that the rankings are entirely appropriate given the criteria set forth in the introduction, and that the end result is a list that allows several different teams to shine based on various shades of greatness. You can disagree with me; that's cool.



Whatever the situation, I would prefer you think less of me than devalue the hard work and effort put into making this site possible and all of the content that's come out over the last few years. Imagine if I said something like that about Ballistix just because I didn't agree with you. You cross a dangerous line when you start to accuse the entire organization of bending facts and reshaping history to garner more views. I do not like that. I might be overreacting, but that's a pretty serious accusation that I want to stamp out right now. I wrote it. It was all my ranking. I believe that the rankings are entirely appropriate given the criteria set forth in the introduction, and that the end result is a list that allows several different teams to shine based on various shades of greatness. You can disagree with me; that's cool.Whatever the situation, I would prefer you think less of me than devalue the hard work and effort put into making this site possible and all of the content that's come out over the last few years. Imagine if I said something like that about Ballistix just because I didn't agree with you. You cross a dangerous line when you start to accuse the entire organization of bending facts and reshaping history to garner more views. I do not like that. I might be overreacting, but that's a pretty serious accusation that I want to stamp out right now.



Dude I have 9k posts on TL, been an active sponsor, and supporter of them since 2009, and have frequently promoted and praised your articles. Don't freak out the one time people disagree with you and accuse me of trying to slander TL lmao.



So since it's all you, I think you are very biased for Team Liquid and can't seem to separate your personal feelings for them. That's my opinion, and I don't think less of you or am mad at you, it's just a bad list with a flawed mindset on determining greatest ever.











^ These are how you determine the greatest of all time. There's no other way, GOAT is a very clear definition. Dude I have 9k posts on TL, been an active sponsor, and supporter of them since 2009, and have frequently promoted and praised your articles. Don't freak out the one time people disagree with you and accuse me of trying to slander TL lmao.So since it's all you, I think you are very biased for Team Liquid and can't seem to separate your personal feelings for them. That's my opinion, and I don't think less of you or am mad at you, it's just a bad list with a flawed mindset on determining greatest ever.^ These are how you determine the greatest of all time. There's no other way, GOAT is a very clear definition. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4831 Posts Last Edited: 2019-01-10 00:33:44 #12 On January 10 2019 08:13 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2019 08:08 EsportsJohn wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:37 Diamond wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:23 EsportsJohn wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:18 Diamond wrote:

On January 10 2019 07:03 Zambrah wrote:

TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh. I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list TL bias is strong in these parts too, eh.I'm surprised Taeja isn't on this list



I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.

I've spent years arguing that TL isn't biased towards their own but it's super obvious here that is the case. They may be separate from a corporate perspective but the bias is clear. So far I can't find one person outside of the writer that defends TL #3.



I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias. I would appreciate it if you would avoid the defamation route and attribute writer bias instead of organizational bias.



I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as it may have been a writing team decision and not just you alone.



I wrote it. It was all my ranking. I believe that the rankings are entirely appropriate given the criteria set forth in the introduction, and that the end result is a list that allows several different teams to shine based on various shades of greatness. You can disagree with me; that's cool.



Whatever the situation, I would prefer you think less of me than devalue the hard work and effort put into making this site possible and all of the content that's come out over the last few years. Imagine if I said something like that about Ballistix just because I didn't agree with you. You cross a dangerous line when you start to accuse the entire organization of bending facts and reshaping history to garner more views. I do not like that. I might be overreacting, but that's a pretty serious accusation that I want to stamp out right now. I wrote it. It was all my ranking. I believe that the rankings are entirely appropriate given the criteria set forth in the introduction, and that the end result is a list that allows several different teams to shine based on various shades of greatness. You can disagree with me; that's cool.Whatever the situation, I would prefer you think less of me than devalue the hard work and effort put into making this site possible and all of the content that's come out over the last few years. Imagine if I said something like that about Ballistix just because I didn't agree with you. You cross a dangerous line when you start to accuse the entire organization of bending facts and reshaping history to garner more views. I do not like that. I might be overreacting, but that's a pretty serious accusation that I want to stamp out right now.



Dude I have 9k posts on TL, been an active sponsor, and supporter of them since 2009, and have frequently promoted and praised your articles. Don't freak out the one time people disagree with you and accuse me of trying to slander TL lmao.



So since it's all you, I think you are very biased for Team Liquid and can't seem to separate your personal feelings for them. That's my opinion, and I don't think less of you or am mad at you, it's just a bad list with a flawed mindset on determining greatest ever.











^ These are how you determine the greatest of all time. There's no other way, GOAT is a very clear definition. Dude I have 9k posts on TL, been an active sponsor, and supporter of them since 2009, and have frequently promoted and praised your articles. Don't freak out the one time people disagree with you and accuse me of trying to slander TL lmao.So since it's all you, I think you are very biased for Team Liquid and can't seem to separate your personal feelings for them. That's my opinion, and I don't think less of you or am mad at you, it's just a bad list with a flawed mindset on determining greatest ever.^ These are how you determine the greatest of all time. There's no other way, GOAT is a very clear definition.



I'm just saying that it's a very slippery slope, and you'd be best by avoiding it altogether. I understand your intention, but others who don't know you may not. That's why I felt it was important to stamp it out.



As far as the actual rankings go, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. There's a lot of different ways these rankings could have gone, but I set up a criteria to create a solid set of guidelines that made it impossible for me to err too far one way or the other. For instance, one of the things I decided was to rank based on overall team throughout history. The reason for this was twofold. First, I wanted to avoid just having a bunch of MVP Black rosters. Second, I felt that constraining myself to a single roster would not be great in the context of the entire history of the team. In the case of Tempo Storm, they fall well below #5 if we don't include their early roster with Dreadnaught, Kaeyoh, Sold1er, Arthelon, and Zuna; conversely, that roster alone had very little impact on the game aside from 6-8 months in the North American scene.



This set of guidelines was also set up to intentionally avoid any extreme biases. If you know anything about me, I'm heavily biased toward the Koreans. I would gladly put up a Korean top 5 (with DIG, ofc). Ballistix, Tempest, Miracle, eStar, and even Cloud9 have accomplished some things far greater than other teams like Team Liquid or Tempo Storm. But there are important non-tangibles that I think need to be factored into how we remember the game. To go with a Brood War example, think of Savior, possibly the greatest Zerg player ever after Jaedong. He only reigned for about a year with only one OSL win (I mean, I guess technically 0) to his name, but he did it in a period of TvZ domination while also completely redefining the metagame with his playstyle. That intangible alone might rank him higher than, say, Jangbi, who was able to go toe-to-toe with Flash and Jaedong at their absolute best. Similarly, Fantasy himself was able to inherit a godlike status by beating the greats before him. In some ways, he became intrinsically better by doing no more than any Terran before him.



These dynasties or inherited traits continue through teams like Team Liquid or Tempo Storm in Heroes, and especially when you consider the tone of each team and how it seemed to build on previous incarnations. The Duran brothers Liquid was known for their unique picks and off-the-wall type of playstyle which continued with some of the crazy picks from Lowell. Later, Liquid picked up an entirely new roster that still lived up to that legacy of creativity and experimentation with picks like Cho'Gall and TLV in important matches. Likewise, Tempo Storm's original roster was known for their standard, "boring" macro play compared to the more creative Cloud9 roster. And sure enough, the Murloc Geniuses reincarnation proved to do the same thing: draft solid, play macro, and win through attrition. Does that make them greater on paper? No, but it establishes a connection to the past which creates a broader storyline which inevitably increases the perception of their greatness.



Maybe I flatter myself, but as a writer, I feel like I'm more in-tune with story arcs and the intangibles that make certain heroes larger than life.



The second caveat that I think causes some confusion is the idea of competitive length. Who is greater? A competitor who wins everything for six months and then disappears off the map or a competitor who plays consistently for 3 years with okayish results and maybe one or two major wins? For me, the greater competitor is one who is both skilled and consistent, and that amount of time at or near the top of play is an important factor for determining the best of all time. That's where certain teams like Tempo Storm and Team Liquid get a boost. It would be easy to point to incredibly dominant teams like eStar or Cloud9 as one of the greatest of all time, but when we look at their careers as a whole, they shined very brightly for a small period of time before disbanding.



If Team Liquid or Tempo Storm (very obviously the most controversial picks for this ranking) didn't have a period of extreme dominance in their region in 2015, they would not have been included. But they did have good success in the past, and their somewhat mortal weaknesses in the past two years are redeemed by the fact that they have a wall of medals stashed away somewhere in the name of TS or TL.



There was a lot of thought that went into individual decisions such as Team Liquid in 3-5 or whether Fnatic should be in the top 5. If you really want me to share some of those thoughts, I'd be glad to. But for the most part, the summary of the rankings is very clear on why I chose the teams I chose. Limiting the best teams of all time to just 5 is difficult.

I'm just saying that it's a very slippery slope, and you'd be best by avoiding it altogether. I understand your intention, but others who don't know you may not. That's why I felt it was important to stamp it out.As far as the actual rankings go, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. There's a lot of different ways these rankings could have gone, but I set up a criteria to create a solid set of guidelines that made it impossible for me to err too far one way or the other. For instance, one of the things I decided was to rank based on overall team throughout history. The reason for this was twofold. First, I wanted to avoid just having a bunch of MVP Black rosters. Second, I felt that constraining myself to a single roster would not be great in the context of the entire history of the team. In the case of Tempo Storm, they fall well below #5 if we don't include their early roster with Dreadnaught, Kaeyoh, Sold1er, Arthelon, and Zuna; conversely, that roster alone had very little impact on the game aside from 6-8 months in the North American scene.This set of guidelines was also set up to intentionally avoid any extreme biases. If you know anything about me, I'mbiased toward the Koreans. I would gladly put up a Korean top 5 (with DIG, ofc). Ballistix, Tempest, Miracle, eStar, and even Cloud9 have accomplished some things far greater than other teams like Team Liquid or Tempo Storm. But there are important non-tangibles that I think need to be factored into how we remember the game. To go with a Brood War example, think of Savior, possibly the greatest Zerg player ever after Jaedong. He only reigned for about a year with only one OSL win (I mean, I guess technically 0) to his name, but he did it in a period of TvZ domination while also completely redefining the metagame with his playstyle. That intangible alone might rank him higher than, say, Jangbi, who was able to go toe-to-toe with Flash and Jaedong at their absolute best. Similarly, Fantasy himself was able to inherit a godlike status by beating the greats before him. In some ways, he became intrinsically better by doing no more than any Terran before him.These dynasties or inherited traits continue through teams like Team Liquid or Tempo Storm in Heroes, and especially when you consider the tone of each team and how it seemed to build on previous incarnations. The Duran brothers Liquid was known for their unique picks and off-the-wall type of playstyle which continued with some of the crazy picks from Lowell. Later, Liquid picked up an entirely new roster that still lived up to that legacy of creativity and experimentation with picks like Cho'Gall and TLV in important matches. Likewise, Tempo Storm's original roster was known for their standard, "boring" macro play compared to the more creative Cloud9 roster. And sure enough, the Murloc Geniuses reincarnation proved to do the same thing: draft solid, play macro, and win through attrition. Does that make them greater on paper? No, but it establishes a connection to the past which creates a broader storyline which inevitably increases the perception of their greatness.Maybe I flatter myself, but as a writer, I feel like I'm more in-tune with story arcs and the intangibles that make certain heroes larger than life.The second caveat that I think causes some confusion is the idea of competitive length. Who is greater? A competitor who wins everything for six months and then disappears off the map or a competitor who plays consistently for 3 years with okayish results and maybe one or two major wins? For me, the greater competitor is one who is both skilled and consistent, and that amount of time at or near the top of play is an important factor for determining the best of all time. That's where certain teams like Tempo Storm and Team Liquid get a boost. It would be easy to point to incredibly dominant teams like eStar or Cloud9 as one of the greatest of all time, but when we look at their careers as a whole, they shined very brightly for a small period of time before disbanding.If Team Liquid or Tempo Storm (very obviously the most controversial picks for this ranking) didn't have a period of extreme dominance in their region in 2015, they would not have been included. But they did have good success in the past, and their somewhat mortal weaknesses in the past two years are redeemed by the fact that they have a wall of medals stashed away somewhere in the name of TS or TL.There was a lot of thought that went into individual decisions such as Team Liquid in 3-5 or whether Fnatic should be in the top 5. If you really want me to share some of those thoughts, I'd be glad to. But for the most part, the summary of the rankings is very clear on why I chose the teams I chose. Limiting the best teams of all time to just 5 is difficult. Strategy

Harris1st Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Germany 3663 Posts #13



The most arguable point might actually be "is this still the same team" with all the roster and name changes. Both Ballistix and TL had a multitude of those while Fnatic was pretty much always Fnatic. Which is why me personally would put Fnatic in the Top 5, if not Top 3



But of couse, opinions are different. Great write-up, as always I think you both got a point there.The most arguable point might actually be "is this still the same team" with all the roster and name changes. Both Ballistix and TL had a multitude of those while Fnatic was pretty much always Fnatic. Which is why me personally would put Fnatic in the Top 5, if not Top 3But of couse, opinions are different. Great write-up, as always TheDougler is the master of signature bets, he is the two-time Blizzcon SigBet Champ. Also, Serral let me down.

karazax Profile Joined May 2010 United States 3730 Posts #14



Team Liquid was really good at the start of the pro scene in 2015, but the completely subjective world rankings at that time were incredibly slanted towards western teams with minimal respect for Korea, or even options to find replays or streams of Korean games. I don't recall any international play prior to the first Blizzcon, which TL didn't qualify for.



Based on the results



Things were looking up this year with the great showing for TL against GenG at Blizzcon, but Tempest, L5/Ballistix and Fnatic actually won tournaments against MVP/KSV Black/GenG.





If we are ranking most entertaining teams or most influential teams, then I can see the argument, but to me greatest teams means who performed the best, not who I enjoyed watching play the most.Team Liquid was really good at the start of the pro scene in 2015, but the completely subjective world rankings at that time were incredibly slanted towards western teams with minimal respect for Korea, or even options to find replays or streams of Korean games. I don't recall any international play prior to the first Blizzcon, which TL didn't qualify for.Based on the results here , it looks like TL never placed top 2 in any international tournament. After an incredible start in 2015, they spent over two years as the 3rd or lower ranked team in EU where they weren't qualifying for international play.Things were looking up this year with the great showing for TL against GenG at Blizzcon, but Tempest, L5/Ballistix and Fnatic actually won tournaments against MVP/KSV Black/GenG.

Valiver Profile Blog Joined February 2011 Caldeum 1966 Posts #15 I think some people just need to read the criteria again. If you are only looking at winning, you aren't looking at the entire picture of the rankings here. Writer

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts Last Edited: 2019-01-10 20:00:29 #16 On January 11 2019 02:26 Valiver wrote:

I think some people just need to read the criteria again. If you are only looking at winning, you aren't looking at the entire picture of the rankings here.



Greatest of all time has a very clear definition. It involves being the best at something, not the most exciting or unique. Those only are used to separate equally great teams/individuals.



If you want to change the definition then you need a new article title.



This literally is not a debate anywhere in the world except this very article. Find me a MMA list of Greatest of all time that has someone that won 0 world championships in the Top 5. You won't, because winning is everything when discussing GOAT.



Greatest of all time has a very clear definition. It involves being the best at something, not the most exciting or unique. Those only are used to separate equally great teams/individuals.If you want to change the definition then you need a new article title.This literally is not a debate anywhere in the world except this very article. Find me a MMA list of Greatest of all time that has someone that won 0 world championships in the Top 5. You won't, because winning is everything when discussing GOAT. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond