As a neuroscientist, I am fascinated by mental health, consciousness and perception, as well as the psychology behind human relationships.

What Is Derealization Disorder?

Life is hard enough when you're not standing in front of your mirror, panicked, wondering why your face and surroundings appear cartoon-like.

Many people who suffer from some form of anxiety (generalized anxiety or panic disorder) develop dissociative symptoms. These include feelings of unreality that we refer to as 'derealization', which cause the sufferer to feel as if they are in a completely dreamlike state, surrounded by an unfamiliar world in which they can no longer find any form of solace.

In the face of such intrusive and scary symptoms, many people worry that they are developing schizophrenia or psychosis and about to 'lose control' of their mind. After all, derealization feels psychedelic by nature; when it hits, it is nearly impossible to believe that it is just an illusion created by anxiety and not something much, much more insidious that will eventually render you unable to function.

DPDR Is Sustained By Falsehoods

However, I am writing this hub to promise you that, in your current state of extreme vulnerability and fear, that this is not the case.

Through mastering the art of managing your mental diet and swerving yourself away from delusions, you can snap out of this trance and see reality as you once saw it again. I have experienced prolonged bouts of this symptom, created by a combination of severe anxiety and a propensity to hyperfocus and obsess (OCD tendencies). In terms of coping mechanisms, I am now very aware of what works and what doesn't work. I will address all of the myths about derealization and share the tips that helped me overcome this terrifying symptom.

Before we start, I recommend that every DPDR sufferer grabs a copy of Exit The Dream for a much more in-depth look at this disorder and the precise techniques that cure it. The truth is that it can be completely snapped out of in a matter of days, but this requires you a). temporarily accepting discomfort and b). employing very specific tools to rewire your subconscious mind.

What Triggers Anxiety-Induced Dissociation?

I will not deeply delve into neurochemistry, as I want this hub to be accessible to anyone who wants to rapidly recover from derealization. However, dealing with prolonged anxiety results in hormonal and chemical changes that can trigger dissociation. You see, dissociation is a natural response to anxiety and is undoubtedly biologically-advantageous in response to a genuine threat. Being able to mentally 'check out' probably once conferred our ancestors with the ability to hunt and defend their families in scary, adverse conditions. Unfortunately, depersonalization/derealization is nothing more than an eerie hindrance in modern-day life.

Some of us seem more prone to dissociation than others, first experiencing it at work during a presentation, or the night before an exam. Since we are often also panic-attack-prone, it is likely that a sensitive amygdala is partly to blame. Others need a severe physiological stressor to cross the necessary anxiety threshold, whether it be a violent mugging or an unpleasant drug experience (hence, dissociation frequently presents in PTSD). Irrespective of their origins, the sensations are designed to linger for a few days at most before dissipating.

While a whole-food diet is optimal for good health, two of the foods in this photo can worsen OCD and anxiety!

Why Do Some People Develop Chronic Derealization?

Being naturally inquisitive and perceptive can be a double-edged sword in the face of dissociation; in short, logical realists are less likely to deal with prolonged episodes.

If the sufferer is not particularly interested in spiritual or philosophical matters, they may experience dissociation as nothing more than a fleeting symptom. I was fascinated to speak to a friend who felt it for the first time after breaking her leg badly. She reported feeling 'drugged' and as if she was watching herself on television, yet these feelings only lasted for 3 days because she has no affinity for introspection, nor an interest in questioning reality. She simply carried on with her day, rather than indulging the loop of fear and existentialism that leads people like us into hysterics.

Little is known about the precise neurobiological basis of chronic derealization (i.e. dissociation that lasts implausibly long), but it is inextricably linked to the ability to enter hyper-focused thinking states. In addition to anxiety, much obsession is involved in the constant pondering over whether you are living 'in real-life or a dream'. For this reason, OCD tendencies are certainly a prerequisite to a sustained episode of dissociative anxiety. Psychiatric labels aside, the profile of a derealization sufferer can be wrapped up as follows: an anxiety-prone, cerebral deep-thinker. The former trait allows for the sensations of unreality to occur following panic, while the latter two beget the deep rumination and questioning of the feelings that actually intensifies them.

Feelings Are Transient, So Don't Fixate

Based on my neuroscience background and my personal experience (as well as extensive open-minded research), I can confidently say that derealization is caused by an abnormal obsession with dissociation and unreality. Mild levels of dissociation are perfectly normal. After all, to have a human brain is to experience some strange sensations from time to time. This is because we are never as 'fixed' in reality as we think; our brains create what we call 'reality'. This means that when neurotransmitters are offset due to stress, or adrenaline is acting on the body, it is common for us to feel some 'floaty' sensations, or to begin to feel that we are perceiving the world differently to normal. We are perceiving it differently, and that is okay. That shouldn't scare us, and rest assured, it won't spiral out of control and render you unable to live/speak/work. The key is to release the expectation that the world will appear identical every hour, since you have a brain that is constantly being altered by stress levels, external stimulation, thoughts and the food you're consuming.

This is because our brain's physicality is changing immutably, and therefore, the way that we view the world will naturally ebb and flow too (just as simply drinking coffee can make the world seem more beautiful and bright).

Caffeine causing some temporary jitters or sharpening your perception probably does not concern you, because you know that the stimulant effects are temporary and consumption is within your active control. You will soon realize that derealisation disappears when you commit to proactive recovery and abstain from all mystical thinking, so it is less out of your control than you might currently fear.

Intrusive Thoughts: Without Obsession, There Is No Derealization Disorder

To clarify, you live in your head now and get yourself into obsessive spirals, but are in no way 'too psychologically damaged to cope', even after years of severe anxiety. Learned behavioral patterns can be altered, the brain can be profoundly rewired (Donald Hebb, 1949: "neurons that fire together wire together"). You have the potential to thrive with your unique brain, just as you did when you were very young and felt safe within the physical world.

Just because you're physiologically prone to spacey, light-headed dissociation and tend to focus intently on the way that you're viewing the world doesn't mean that you have to experience derealization disorder and panic attacks. You can treat the obsessive element of your psyche your own and become truly free, even without the intervention of professionals. I have managed it, and believe me, I once believed that I had lost my entire life to questioning whether I had been immersed in a simulation.

No, You Are Not Developing Schizophrenia

Derealization is terrifyingly far from your normal, baseline state. You feel like you're intoxicated constantly, and that you will surely never be able to snap out of something so strange. You would do anything to experience the simple things in life again, and to feel within reality.



Understand this: derealization occurs when an anxiety-prone person becomes obsessively terrified with the peculiar concept of not being able to see reality normally, because we believe that our reality is changing and will eventually be almost completely psychedelic and unrecognizable. This is a falsehood. The very fact that you are aware of this symptom means that you are not developing psychosis and schizophrenia. When developing those disorders, people slowly lose their sense of self and wouldn't be able to rationally question whether they were viewing reality normally or not, Plus, these severe illnesses come with a lot more symptoms e.g. delusions and aggression.

Everyone feels spaced-out and floaty when tired, notices pretty colors more after caffeine, and everyone feels slightly wobbly when unwell. The difference between us and these neurotypical people who will never even consider that they may have something as strange as 'derealization disorder' is that we obsess. We hyperfocus and chase scary thoughts down paths, and evolution has not conferred us with the ability to easily snap out of such a behavioral pattern. This is why mental discipline and control over which thoughts you allow to imprint on your subconscious is of insurmountable importance.

DPDR Rule: Quit Coffee, and Start Drinking Matcha Green Tea

Matcha green tea greatly reduced my derealization/depersonalization anxiety symptoms, possibly due to L-Theanine's calming, synergistic action with caffeine. I am not one to promote excessive supplements, as they can often add insult to injury when it comes to mental health (specifically anxiety). However, matcha green tea is absolutely fantastic at calming the mind and letting you reach a gently-stimulated state of relaxation.

Nowadays, I still experience hints of dissociation; while I now know how to accept the sensations and avoid a full-blown panic attack, matcha remarkably lowers my baseline level of anxiety and seems to quieten my obsessive thoughts. I urge you all to quit coffee (if you rely on it for energy) and start drinking tea instead. Coffee is extremely unsuitable for people prone to OCD thoughts and anxiety and wreaks havoc on the adrenal glands.

It took me a while to re-locate this particular product, but here is the link to the tea that I use with great success (it's also delicious!). If anyone tries it, I'd love to hear about how it's affected your mental state and whether it's also helped you accept intermittent dissociation (which, in turn, lessens its frequency).

A delicious matcha tea I had recently, made with coconut milk.

N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC)

5-HTP and Dissociation: A Miracle For Some People

Don't get caught up in the supplement game, but do also try 5-HTP. As the direct precursor to the infamous neurotransmitter serotonin, 5-HTP is known for its mood-stabilizing and calming properties. An imbalance in serotonin is nearly always implicated in the anxiety-related illnesses that might cause someone to develop dissociative symptoms (e.g. panic disorder and OCD). Hence, safely and mildly boosting systemic serotonin concentrations can significantly decrease the incidence of scary dissociative symptoms in many people.

There is no need to always take 5-HTP - I only use it during periods of my life when I feel my anxiety-induced dissociation is creeping back and beginning to affect me again. However, it is tremendously useful and really calms and stabilizes my mind.

As it is the precursor to melatonin and can induce mild sleepiness, it is best to take right before bed on an empty stomach. It provides relatively rapid relief and quietens neurotic thought loops (within 5 days), as well as improving your quality of sleep and emotional stability.

Remember Your Life Before This Obsession

I will delve a little further into the concept of 'normal dissociation', and how it is linked to the problem of derealization. Think back to when you were a child chasing your sibling across the beach, and you were completely lost to the innocent game, the noises and the smell of the sea. In this excited, adrenaline-fuelled state, if you had possessed the obsessive and adult-level thinking that you do now, you may would have looked around and felt quite out-of-body and 'in a simulation'. This would have panicked you, causing more adrenaline to be released, making your body respond as if it were in danger. This, in turn, would have worsened the derealization, probably causing you to worry about developing things like psychosis and schizophrenia. You wouldn't have found relief back at home (since you can't run away from your own thought spirals), and would likely have woken up the next day, nervous, causing the re-triggering of dissociation.

However, back then you were a child and not a fear-paralyzed adult and didn't have internet access to google symptoms. You were not aware of severe mental illnesses that you could, in theory, be developing, and also were not even aware that anyone could feel detached from the world. You enjoyed your mild dissociation, the floatiness that you felt when listening to music, and felt that it was harmless, because it is harmless.

You were in the dopamine-rich stage of childhood and were constantly and healthily being distracted by interesting stimuli within reality e.g. food, animals, your friends, your parents' discipline. This meant that, even though you experienced natural dissociation as a child in times of panic and exhilaration and you possessed the same genes that you have now (which make you prone to fixation), you never went down the path that leads to derealization disorder.

Beliefs that you will 'never see the world normally again' are falsehoods, and subscribing to philosophical schools of thought like solipsism only adds insult to injury.

Reality Isn't Fixed For Anyone; Some Strangeness Is Normal!

It is comforting to know that derealization is simply a result of anxiety and unnecessary fear/focus, but this may seem unconvincing to you. You might want to tell me "you say I'm not going psychotic, but surely something is very wrong.". If you feel that way, then I want you to do a lot of research on the changeability of our perception of reality. The concept of a fixed, stable perception of the world is totally unfounded and improbable. Diet, medication, hormones and neurotransmitters change your sober reality constantly, and your mood.

Do not think for one minute that you are 'tripping out' and surrounded by people who are judging you through a crystal-clear reality lense. Everyone around you will have something clouding their view of 'objective consensus reality', whether it be a bad hangover or the fact that they are rushing to collect their cat from the vet.

In addition to mildly-altered states being very normal in day-to-day scenarios, remember that many people actively choose to take drugs that warp their reality immensely and they enjoy these experiences. Unless they are psychosis or anxiety-prone, people who take LSD lose all contact with the 'normal reality' that they are accustomed to yet step out unharmed. A bad trip will occur only when the user cannot not accept the temporarily absurd world view that they are being presented with.

A changed reality is not necessarily a negative thing, it just 'is', and is something you must become comfortable with. If you're anxious, you will be producing a lot of adrenaline which acts on nearly all the body's cells. It also disrupts cortisol levels and can lead to hormonal syndromes such as adrenal fatigue. None of these are particularly harmful, but they will affect the levels of chemicals in your brain and they will lead to some dissociative feelings/will make you see reality differently to how you did before you became so consumed by anxiety.

So, how is your brain creating such a strange phenomenon? Because it's not hard to change the way that you see the world. Try getting blackout drunk and you'll start to see blurry shapes. That's essentially your reality changing, just as it does when you obsess over derealization. Does it harm you? No, it's just symptomatic of drinking alcohol. Altered realities are a byproduct of living life; we all see the world in different ways as we go about our day.

The Only Way To Permanently Overcome Derealization and Depersonalization

Logically think back to all the times that you've felt intensely derealized in public or in another scary situation. You felt like you were falling down a slippery slope and about to be sucked into a cartoon show, but that level of insanity never happened, right? You were always fine. The worst it gets is thinking "this is weird and unpleasant, I want this feeling to go away". The panic attacks only happen when you indulge yourself and let yourself fall deeper in that direction. Direct yourself away from panic each time. I've done it at my worst and so can you.

it gets is thinking "this is weird and unpleasant, I want this feeling to go away". The panic attacks only happen when you indulge yourself and let yourself fall deeper in that direction. Direct yourself away from panic each time. I've done it at my worst and so can you. Stop thinking that you need to 'assess' whether reality appears normal or strange each day. This is exactly the kind of thinking that obsessive people like us fall into, but all it will do is worsen the situation. Remember, derealization is only something you chronically experience because you're so strangely worried about whether things are 'real' or not.

However reality looks, you need to just go with the flow. Tell yourself "reality just is, it isn't fixed". Something that really helped me was to think "if I were stoned right now, I wouldn't be scared, I'd be enjoying the altered reality". And, when people are stoned, they get by fine in public, just walking alone at their own pace immersed in their own perception of the world. You can do the same in your dissociated state, as nothing bad will ever happen.

to just go with the flow. Tell yourself "reality just is, it isn't fixed". Something that really helped me was to think "if I were stoned right now, I wouldn't be scared, I'd be enjoying the altered reality". And, when people are stoned, they get by fine in public, just walking alone at their own pace immersed in their own perception of the world. You can do the same in your dissociated state, as nothing bad will ever happen. Realize you are alone in your feelings, but instead of finding that scary, use it to motivate you to relax, and to stop feeding existential, spiritual or nihilistic thoughts. Nobody telling you that you're okay will magic this state away. You need to feel it for yourself by remembering that 1. the derealization doesn't hurt you and that 2. after time, you create new pathways away from the unhealthy fixation on reality and it actually goes away (often quickly).

Stop thinking of it as your 'derealization issue'. That introduces the false notion that you're either in sober reality OR you're in some dreamlike trance, when it's quite the contrary. As I've explained, reality isn't ever the same, so it can't be 'right' or 'wrong' in this way. It's just a wide spectrum and we all experience the same moments in very different ways, due to food, caffeine, emotion, fear etc. Stop yourself stepping out of the house and thinking "today it's either going to be normal or scary dream state", since that is going to make recovery impossible.

What Are The Benefits of Experiencing Derealization?

I truly believe that there is nothing as scary as the experience of derealization and consequent panic attacks. It really is living in terror, to a greater extent than schizophrenia or psychosis in some ways because there is complete lucidity (this alone proves that it is NOT going to progress into those conditions, so worry not). You are completely aware of how you 'should' be experiencing reality, and this allows intense fixation and anxiety when everything seems strange.

If you can get through the worst points of anxiety-induced derealization, then nothing within reality should really scare or upset you. If you find yourself upset about friendship issues, work or illness, you can remind yourself that the fact that you're worrying about these things means that you are within reality and no longer dealing with derealization issues. You should feel grateful and blessed to be free from something you've suffered so badly with.

In some ways, derealization shows you exactly how scary it is when the brain glitches in a way that we are not mentally equipped to deal with. Experiencing it can and should put you off using drugs, as you clearly possess a sensitive hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis.

Mainly, however, experiencing derealization is an insanely interesting experience, akin to something like lucid dreaming or astral projection in terms of enlightenment. It really changes your perspective of the world. Having experienced something so strange reminds me that reality really is down to your perspective. I am far more lenient when judging the personalities of people I meet now, and I tend to panic less when faced with real-life dilemmas. I am aware that my stressed, sober day-to-day viewpoint isn't absolute judgment or authority, and that I should leave all doors in my life partly open.

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MBTI Personality Type

MBTI personality type results - emotionally-sensitive introverts are more prone to dissociation?

Please take the time to fill out the polls and leave a comment, so that we can all help one another through this crazy period of self-questioning and turbulence.

I am particularly fascinated by the MBTI personality type poll; it confirms my suspicion that introverted, perceptive and introspective people are far more likely to battle relentless dissociative symptoms. If you look at the personality types' distribution, it's evident that certain MBTI types including INFP, INTP and INFJ are represented far more than they would be in a random population sample. The opposite is true for the more conventional, extroverted, practical personality types - people of the 'confident and rational' nature seem to be few and far between! It may be that us introverted, spiritually-inclined people are more prone to anxiety and therefore dissociation, or the relationship may be far more correlative than it is causal (e.g. us being that way and us experiencing derealization simply coincide, instead of being intrinsically linked).

Thank you for reading until the end!

I wish you a rapid recovery and hope you are soon able to trust reality again. Strive to be comfortable exploring the oscillations of your own mind instead of fighting them, and feel free to contact me to ask anything or share your story.

This content is accurate and true to the best of the author’s knowledge and does not substitute for diagnosis, prognosis, treatment, prescription, and/or dietary advice from a licensed health professional. Drugs, supplements, and natural remedies may have dangerous side effects. If pregnant or nursing, consult with a qualified provider on an individual basis. Seek immediate help if you are experiencing a medical emergency.

Questions & Answers

Question: I experienced "derealization" first in summer 2017. And you are 100% correct. Couldn't have said it any better. Its all about anxiety, derealisation is a normal state of mind. Don't you think it's all about settings the focus on it?

Answer: Yes - I have studied the topic myself as well as carrying out a lot of my own open-minded research, and I'm absolutely sure that derealisation is an anxiety symptom, rather than a psychotic phenomenon. The problem we have to overcome is our tendency to indulge 'reality checks' and obsessive, OCD/anxiety-style thought loops.

This can be a difficult task in itself, but it's at least comforting to know that we are not losing our minds or developing something more grave like schizophrenia.

© 2017 Lucy

Lucy (author) from Leeds, UK on April 24, 2020:

Hi Tasin - dissociative anxiety may feel absolutely terrifying, but it is harmless and will never progress into anything worse. You must learn to consider these intrusive, irrational thoughts such as "I am not alive", "I am still high" as part of the condition, instead of believing them.

Just as we are capable of dismissing worries that we will "never want to eat food again" when we are sick from the Norovirus, you must realize that these beliefs and thoughts are just part of this temporary state you are in.

And, that the only way out of this state is to embrace the mentality that I have described in this post.

Best of luck, and feel free to reach out if you need more help.

Lucy

Tasin Hassan on April 21, 2020:

Hello sir... I am suffering from depersonalisation from 1 year... Weird thought comes in my mind that I am not alive... Now they will take me to the hell...

I can not understand my self... I feel like I am still high... I can not stop my thoughts.. I try my best to stop it... but in time its came automatically... I would love to be feel alive... I would love to feel free from It..please help me to overcome...

Daphne on May 14, 2019:

Lucy,

I got my DR after a panic attack 3 days after i took xtc (outta nowhere) i never had a anxiety disorder or i never expierenced panic attacks or some high anxiety.... how can i know that this is a symptom of anxiety when, for me i never expierenced an anxiety disorder?

I struggle with this question daily.

I hope you’ll respond!

Majd on April 09, 2019:

a tip is : don't forget Karma. help people, build discipline.

Just don't think about it a lot

Lucy (author) from Leeds, UK on March 03, 2019:

That's a very healthy perspective on DPDR - the experience can be a blessing in a sense, and teaches you a lot about your brain. I like your advice - however, I'll add that no one who suffers from dissociative anxiety should EVER touch weed or other drugs again.

Some people can't afford to give the thread that attaches them to reality the *slightest* tug.

Amazing on March 02, 2019:

Hi Lucy, I had this awful but beautiful symptoms for 2 years. anyone can get trough it and heal ... Im 100% precent better and it feels so good. more Tips for everyone : 1. Drink a lot of water .

2. Take magnesium citrate and fish oil each day, it reduced my symptoms dramatically.

3. Quit weed for now untill you get better.

4. Go out and be happy - only 2% of the world are dealing with this situation so its like winning the lottery by chanses. make the best of it cause its gonna go away soon and the world will be boring again ☺

Good luck people you can do it !!

Lucy (author) from Leeds, UK on January 21, 2019:

Both are very similar psychopathological manifestations of anxiety/obsession, so the same approach applies.

Jay22 on January 21, 2019:

What if you have depersonalization and not dr? Any tips on that?

Lucy (author) from Leeds, UK on September 20, 2018:

Thanks for commenting. Actually, a normal dose of matcha powder (half a tsp) contains 25-35mg of caffeine and a regular coffee can contain 100-300mg. However, the major difference between the two is that matcha contains the amino acid L-Theanine. This works in synergy with the small dose of caffeine to provide an uplifting energy boost, but one that is sustained, non-anxious and doesn't involve a crash.

I won't go into the neurotransmitters involved, but the caffeine buzz from 1/4 of a cup of coffee is extremely different to that from a matcha latte. I personally struggle with panic disorder and have had very severe, 24/7 dissociation in the past. Since I have a very heavy workload, I do enjoy incorporating a small dose of caffeine into my day and absolutely adore matcha. It boosts my confidence and energy for hours, helps me accept lingering dissociative feelings (if and when they arise) and doesn't result in insomnia or a crash.

If I drink 1/4 of a coffee to obtain the same dose of caffeine, I am jittery, anxious, obsessive and borderline manic. I have had my worse DPDR experiences in this state.

All the above is why I strongly recommend matcha for anyone with panic disorder and/or dissociative symptoms. Drinking coffee is *not* conducive to recovering from DPDR at all, so I really urge people to give it up.

Hope that helps!!

Alex on September 20, 2018:

I've read that Matcha Green Tea contains 3x the amount of caffeine as a cup of normal tea or coffee. I thought the whole reason not to drink coffee was the caffeine though?

Giulio on February 28, 2018:

Dear Lucy, I had been a lot of traumas in my childhood and a day I feel me completely dissociated.... Mind and body not are connected and this scared me a lot. I live in Italy

Mathias on January 20, 2018:

I've had this for about ten years. It doesn't really go away, I focus too much on it and I don't know how to stop thinking about it...

Eh on January 12, 2018:

What you describe in the child-on-the-beach example sounds like flow to me. I've experienced flow plenty of times, and derealisation a little less. They're nothing alike. One is total engagement and one is total inability to engage.

Lucy (author) from Leeds, UK on January 06, 2018:

Hey! It is definitely an anxiety-driven symptom, and can't actually be a disorder on its own. Dissociation is very common in anxiety, however terrifying it feels.

Steve on January 04, 2018:

Lisa,

How do I know if this is anxiety? I have never done drugs or had any head injuries. However, my symptoms frequently last a long time when they happen, and I fear they won’t go away one time. I do check for dpdr often. Your article makes a lot of sense, as obsession is certainly a part of my problem, as I have OCD. However, I was just wonder how I can distinguish if my dpdr is from anxiety or a disorder on its own.

Dre on January 04, 2018:

Lisa,

How do I know if this is anxiety? I have never done drugs or had any head injuries. However, my symptoms frequently last a long time when they happen, and I fear they won’t go away one time. I do check for dpdr often. Your article makes a lot of sense, as obsession is certainly a part of my problem, as I have OCD. However, I was just wonder how I can distinguish if my dpdr is from anxiety or a disorder on its own.

Lucy (author) from Leeds, UK on December 30, 2017:

It is an incredibly terrifying thing to go through. However, it's important to remember that part of this disorder is the constant OCD-style thinking patterns of "I have this worse than anyone else", "I need to check if I'm experiencing DR today", "I can't be cured" etc. etc.

When I first truly started following the logic behind my article, my DR lessened in about a week to become 25% as strong as it was before. The goal isn't to never feel dissociated or spaced-out again, it's to stop yourself living your life based on these feelings under the illusion that you have this big bad "DR" problem. The truth is, it's just anxiety-induced dissociation. Stopping the constant, intrusive thoughts is the only way to regain your life. And make sure you never, ever touch any drugs again... some of us (myself included) are just too sensitive. Good luck! :)

Anon on December 29, 2017:

Ate my first cannabis edible and had a panic attack and ever since everything feels estranged and detached. I don't think anyone deserves to feel this best of luck with everyone dealing with this issue. Hopefully we can all beat this.