AT&T Busted For Fine Print Trickery Court says mouse print banning class action participation 'unconscionable' Over the past few years a growing number of wireless and broadband ISPs (AT&T, Comcast, Verizon and T-Mobile come to mind) have been trying to erode your legal rights via fine print. By burying legalese in your contract, carriers attempt to prevent you from participating in class action lawsuits. Instead of allowing you your day in court, the companies require that customers participate in mandatory binding arbitration (an outside the court settlement system where you lose most of the time). However, these efforts have been having a tough time holding up in court. Carriers faced yet another setback this week when the Washington state Supreme Court upheld an AT&T customer's right to file a class-action lawsuit against AT&T for incorrectly charging him city utility surcharges and "usurious" late fees, according to the quote: AT&T's Consumer Services Agreement is substantively unconscionable and therefore unenforceable to the extent that it purports to waive the right to class actions, require confidentiality, shorten the Washington Consumer Protection Act statute of limitations, and limit availability of attorney fees. . . Courts will not be easily deceived by attempts to unilaterally strip away consumer protections and remedies by efforts to cloak the waiver of important rights under an arbitration clause . The provision in your AT&T contract that requires you hand over your first born to the baby bell still stands, however. However, these efforts have been having a tough time holding up in court. Carriers faced yet another setback this week when the Washington state Supreme Court upheld an AT&T customer's right to file a class-action lawsuit against AT&T for incorrectly charging him city utility surcharges and "usurious" late fees, according to the Seattle Post Intelligencer . AT&T had argued he couldn't sue because the AT&T mouse print didn't allow it, but Justice Tom Chambers would have none of it:The provision in your AT&T contract that requires you hand over your first born to the baby bell still stands, however.







News Jump Stark New Reality In The Telco Business: Dumb Pipes No Longer Cut It; AT&T Unveils Mix and Match Plans; + more news AT&T Extends Overage Charge Waiver; Verizon And T-Mobile Each Insist Their 5G Strategy Is The Right One; + more news War Of Words Heats Up: T-Mobile Fires Back At Verizon, AT&T; Amazon Intros Gaming Service To Take On Stadia; + more news Starlink's Network Faces Huge Limitations; AT&T Whines T-Mobile Merger Put Too Much Spectrum In One Place; + more news WISPs Get CBRS Range As Great As Six Miles At 100 Mbps Speeds; Windstream Officially Exits Bankruptcy; + more news Charter Relaunches Free 60-day Internet And Wi-Fi Offer; NCTA: FCC Should Stick With 25/3 Speed Threshold; + more news Comcast Shuts Off Internet for Subs Who Were Sold Service Illegally; AT&T, Verizon Team To Stop T-Mobile 5G; + more news California Defends Its Net Neutrality Law; AT&T's Traffic Up 20% Despite Data Traffic Actually Being Down; + more news Are The Comcast-Charter X1 Talks Dead In The Water?; AT&T May Offer Phone Plans With Ads For Discounts; + more news Europe's Top Court: Net Neutrality Rules Bar Zero Rating; ViacomCBS To Rebrand CBS All Access As Paramount+; + more news ---------------------- this week last week most discussed view:

topics flat nest

hairspring

join:2007-11-23

Oakville, ON hairspring Member Would it be better if it WERE IN GIANT BOLD LETTERS??!!?



I hope not.

Anonymous_

Anonymous

Premium Member

join:2004-06-21

127.0.0.1 2 edits Anonymous_ Premium Member this did not stop the DVR sueing ( about the cable box renting)



hahahha to att centsofhumor

join:2007-01-20

Two Rivers, WI 1 edit centsofhumor Member thats what happens. ...so far you got immunity, but not for this at least...so far jc10098

join:2002-04-10 jc10098 Member Re: thats what happens. DAMMIT... SHHHHHHHHHH



Don't give them any more ideas. I'm sure they thought of this one though. How much will it take to "lobby" for immunity on this lawsuit.

Rogue Wolf

voted for you for GOAT

join:2003-08-12

Troy, NY Rogue Wolf Member Re: thats what happens. Or for immunity to ANY lawsuits?



"Yes, Mr. Congressman, we believe that having to defend ourselves from lawsuits takes away time, money and resources that could be better spent towards spying upon- err, I mean, protecting the American people from TERRORISTS. Therefore, we should be held protected from, and immune to, the American legal system. You will find our full rationale in the plain white envelope, behind the check made out to your campaign fund." jc10098

join:2002-04-10 jc10098 Member Re: thats what happens. You mean this BIG check made out to your favorite "Charity". We at ATT here by present you with a 1 Million Dollar Check for Save the Children (Cue press release). Where as Save the Children is a sham charity that goes directly towards BUYING Mr. Congressman a New Yacht NAMED Save the Children. Spin doctors ahoy.

jester121

Premium Member

join:2003-08-09

Lake Zurich, IL jester121 Premium Member Terrible idea... Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.



Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.



Duh?

Nezmo

The name's Bond. James Bond.

MVM

join:2004-11-10

Coppell, TX Nezmo MVM Re: Terrible idea... said by jester121:



Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.



Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.



Duh?

Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.Duh? Why is everything a conspiracy?

jester121

Premium Member

join:2003-08-09

Lake Zurich, IL jester121 Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... said by Nezmo:



Why is everything a conspiracy?

Why is everything a conspiracy? Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean people really aren't out to get me. Try representing yourself in court some time and see how happy the judge is to see you taking food out of the mouths of his friends' children.

ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09

Milwaukee, WI ArgMeMatey Member Re: Terrible idea... said by jester121: said by Nezmo:



Why is everything a conspiracy?

Why is everything a conspiracy?

Try representing yourself in court some time and see how happy the judge is to see you taking food out of the mouths of his friends' children.



I know a lot of lawyers and a few judges. None of them are worried about food for lawyers' kids.



However, some of them are worried about staying on schedule and not conducting law school classes in the courtroom on the public's dime.



You may be the exception, but chances are if you take a blind look at 50 professional plumbing jobs and 50 amateur plumbing jobs, you'll be able to tell pretty accurately which are which. So what do you suppose is the result when a non-lawyer tries to do a lawyer's job? About the same.



Even if you are a DIYer in all other aspects of life, unless the case is trivial and the outcome inconsequential, hiring a lawyer is usually a good idea. You should do a bit of research on "division of labor" and its effects on standards and efficiency in society.I know a lot of lawyers and a few judges. None of them are worried about food for lawyers' kids.However, some of them are worried about staying on schedule and not conducting law school classes in the courtroom on the public's dime.You may be the exception, but chances are if you take a blind look at 50 professional plumbing jobs and 50 amateur plumbing jobs, you'll be able to tell pretty accurately which are which. So what do you suppose is the result when a non-lawyer tries to do a lawyer's job? About the same.Even if you are a DIYer in all other aspects of life, unless the case is trivial and the outcome inconsequential, hiring a lawyer is usually a good idea.

jester121

Premium Member

join:2003-08-09

Lake Zurich, IL jester121 Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... said by ArgMeMatey:



You should do a bit of research on "division of labor" and its effects on standards and efficiency in society.



You should do a bit of research on "division of labor" and its effects on standards and efficiency in society. As long as we're handing out homework assignments to each other, go research "sarcasm". Kiwi

Premium Member

join:2003-05-26

Bryant, AR Kiwi to ArgMeMatey

Premium Member to ArgMeMatey





Now, about that plumbing job you screwed up Sometimes it is a conspiracy, I won an impossible custody case because I dumped Lawyers and represented myself, granted not all people will do sufficient research to beat them at their own game though.Now, about that plumbing job you screwed up

erock

@comcast.net erock to ArgMeMatey

Anon to ArgMeMatey

yer kidding, right?

i deal with "plumbers" all the time at my day gig. don't compare plumbers to other trades. pick another one. electrician, mechanic, doctor, whatever.

cdru

Go Colts

MVM

join:2003-05-14

Fort Wayne, IN cdru to jester121

MVM to jester121

When fix a friends computer, I hate it when they "thought they could fix it so installed program XYZ" and it ended up making it worse. It's their computer and they have the right to do what they want, but it only makes things worse. If they don't know what they are doing, sometimes it's better to let someone who knows what they are doing do it.



When I design/program a website, I hate it when a client tells me how exactly something needs to be done when they don't have a clue what they are talking about. It's their site, and they are usually paying by the hour so if they want to pay for things to be done several times to get it done properly, they can feel free to. But if they don't know what they are talking about, sometimes it's better to let someone who knows what they are doing do it.



Same thing applies to legal representation. In many cases legal professionals have years of personal experience or have access to someone senior that does. Legal matters are often complex and not knowing the proper way to do something can screw you in the end. It's not that a person can't successfully represent themselves, it's just that it's often too complex for a layperson to fully grasp everything that they need to quick enough so that you aren't wasting not only their own time, but also everyone else that is involved with the case as well as the other people's other cases.



And this doesn't even touch on the fact that a person that represents them self usually has a fool for a client. People get emotionally attached to a case and don't always see things clearly and objectively. raptor1418

Premium Member

join:2002-12-03

Denver, CO raptor1418 to Nezmo

Premium Member to Nezmo

said by Nezmo:



Why is everything a conspiracy?

Why is everything a conspiracy? Are you blind to the reality of how corrupt big business is and not to mention how corrupt our government is right now?

Qumahlin

Never Enough Time

MVM

join:2001-10-05

united state 1 recommendation Qumahlin MVM Re: Terrible idea... said by raptor1418: said by Nezmo:



Why is everything a conspiracy?

Why is everything a conspiracy?

Are you blind to the reality of how corrupt big business is and not to mention how corrupt our government is right now?



Companies throw TONS of shit like this in ToS's and EULA's all the time knowing that some day when it gets challenged they will be in trouble. Do you really think the corporate lawyers representing ATT were not aware that you can't legally revoke consumer rights through hidden clauses in contracts? They were aware of it, but in the long run it was better to save the money upfront and worry later about someone challenging them then vice versa



Not everything in life that involves "big business" and "the government" is a conspiracy. and that makes everything a conspiracy how? The judges decision has nothing to do with any conspiracy and worries about taking money away from lawyers.Companies throw TONS of shit like this in ToS's and EULA's all the time knowing that some day when it gets challenged they will be in trouble. Do you really think the corporate lawyers representing ATT were not aware that you can't legally revoke consumer rights through hidden clauses in contracts? They were aware of it, but in the long run it was better to save the money upfront and worry later about someone challenging them then vice versaNot everything in life that involves "big business" and "the government" is a conspiracy. raptor1418

Premium Member

join:2002-12-03

Denver, CO 1 edit raptor1418 Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... Should have made myself more clear. Yes I think everything is a conspiracy /sarcasm

snipper_cr

Premium Member

join:2002-01-22

Wheaton, IL snipper_cr to jester121

Premium Member to jester121

Courts will not be easily deceived by attempts to unilaterally strip away consumer protections and remedies by efforts to cloak the waiver of important rights under an arbitration clause. Not to mention apparently smarter than the average bear, eh baboo? Not to mention apparently smarter than the average bear, eh baboo?

jester121

Premium Member

join:2003-08-09

Lake Zurich, IL jester121 Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... said by snipper_cr:



Courts will not be easily deceived by attempts to unilaterally strip away consumer protections and remedies by efforts to cloak the waiver of important rights under an arbitration clause. Not to mention apparently smarter than the average bear, eh baboo?

Not to mention apparently smarter than the average bear, eh baboo? Basic reading comprehension isn't an indicator of smarts, and most certainly isn't a prerequisite to become a judge.

caribconsult

Premium Member

join:2003-03-19

Mayaguez, PR ·DM Wireless

·HughesNet

caribconsult Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... Jester: I don't know where you get your facts from, but I hope it doesn't come as a big surprise to you that reading comprehension is one of the most important skills in life, not just in getting through law school, without which you'll never become a lawyer, much less a judge.



To get admitted to ANY law school (except the online diploma mills) you have to take the LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test, like the college boards but 10 times harder). If one's reading comprehension is below par, they'll never get a grade sufficient for admission to a reputable law school, in fact I doubt whether they wouldd ever rise above fry-cook at McDonalds.

jester121

Premium Member

join:2003-08-09

Lake Zurich, IL jester121 Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... Thanks for that. How'd the LSAT work out for you?



If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you'll eventually realize that snipper_cr seemed to imply that the judge who wrote the opinion is "smarter than the average bear" because he was able to somehow read the AT&T policy and discern the fact that they were trying to screw customers. Being able to read and comprehend that doesn't make him smart. It just means he can read.



I'm amazed how people are coming out of the woodwork to defend lawyers -- where are all the cries of "shill" and "fanboy" that we're used to seeing here on BBR?

snipper_cr

Premium Member

join:2002-01-22

Wheaton, IL snipper_cr Premium Member Re: Terrible idea... Thanks for getting back on topic jester.

Yeah I was trying to imply the Judges were a bit smarter, but not really because they could read. Anyone could probably go through and read a TOS but most of us are not sure of all the technical lingo, even if we COULD read in the first place.

caribconsult

Premium Member

join:2003-03-19

Mayaguez, PR ·DM Wireless

·HughesNet

caribconsult to jester121

Premium Member to jester121

Jester: actually, the LSAT worked out just fine for me, I don't remember my score, but it was sufficient to get admitted to law school, I graduated in 1968 with a Juris Doctorate (but you don't have to call me Dr.) and then passed the NY Bar Exam (reportedly one of the toughest in the nation) on my first shot. While I no longer practice law, I still regard the whole experience as a valuable lesson in reading comprehension. Does that answer your question?



It seems to me you're not making the distinction between reading something and comprehending what you have read. I'm not here to defend or accuse judges in general, but the mere fact that they went through all this process would seem to give them a leg-up on comprehension, although there are many instances where this seems to have been disregarded. One can have training and still not use it in certain situations.



Please don't take any part of this as a personal flame. I don't play that game and have been known to issue 'knock it off' statements to those who do. This is just a forum for ideas and we all want to keep it that way.

Sr Tech

Premium Member

join:2003-01-19

Meriden, CT Sr Tech to jester121

Premium Member to jester121

Sounds like they are trying to make you sign a non-compete where the company will always have the last say and you cannot do anything about it. nasadude

join:2001-10-05

Rockville, MD 1 recommendation nasadude to jester121

Member to jester121

said by jester121:



Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.



Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.



Duh?

Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.Duh? "...in cases decided in California by a major arbitration firm over a four-year period, consumers lost 94 percent of the time, a new Public Citizen report shows."



sounds like consumers are doing great without lawyers. sounds like consumers are doing great without lawyers.

MichaelMore

@comcast.net MichaelMore Anon Re: Terrible idea... said by nasadude:



"...in cases decided in California by a major arbitration firm over a four-year period, consumers lost 94 percent of the time, a new Public Citizen report shows."



sounds like consumers are doing great without lawyers.

sounds like consumers are doing great without lawyers.



Look at all the p2p pirates. The thieves think they have a God-given right to copy and distribute other people's work without payment yet. Hopefully 94% of them would lose in arbitration. LOL...or maybe 94% of consumers are being unreasonable.Look at all the p2p pirates. The thieves think they have a God-given right to copy and distribute other people's work without payment yet. Hopefully 94% of them would lose in arbitration.

morbo

Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22

00000 morbo Member Re: Terrible idea... get a life

cdru

Go Colts

MVM

join:2003-05-14

Fort Wayne, IN cdru to jester121

MVM to jester121

said by jester121:



Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers. Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers. And in many cases arbitrators are formerly or currently also lawyers, so I guess your screwed either way. old_wiz_60

join:2005-06-03

Bedford, MA old_wiz_60 to jester121

Member to jester121

The people that do the arbitration are paid by the utilities. They would lose their business if they found in favor of consumers. There is probably something in the secret part of the contract that they must not find in the consumer's favor more than 2% of the time. moonpuppy (banned)

join:2000-08-21

Glen Burnie, MD moonpuppy (banned) to jester121

Member to jester121

said by jester121:



Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.



Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.



Duh?

Arbitration means less money for the lawyers.Judges are all ex lawyers, and their friends are lawyers.Duh?



Some poor lawyer will not be able to buy their kids a sports car for their birthday. Won't someone think about the children?

Wizeguy7

join:2008-08-23

Safety Harbor, FL Wizeguy7 to jester121

Member to jester121

Not All Lawyers are Scumbags..



My daughter-in-law is a Lawyer and if you called her a scumbag in front of me I would squeeze your face. I can see her being a Judge some day and she is the savvy-est (is that a word?) person I ever met. I went through arbitration at my job recently and lost my case. Why you ask? The same people that made the original decision were the arbitrators. How fair is that? I can't wait until I retire (1 yr) so I can kick some butt up the food chain on these Government hacks.

hurfy

Premium Member

join:2002-08-06

Spokane, WA hurfy Premium Member not commercial huh?



Dumped em last year, qwest was a better deal. That puts them pretty darn low on the totem pole....



I'll be sure to send our lawyer a note that he missed out on the class action goodness....I did suggest it



Now if i could just force qwest to explain their funky sales tax charges They can't actually tell you what they are charging tax on...that is just wrong. If they were commercial they would have included charging sales tax on the city tax......Dumped em last year, qwest was a better deal. That puts them pretty darn low on the totem pole....I'll be sure to send our lawyer a note that he missed out on the class action goodness....I did suggest itNow if i could just force qwest to explain their funky sales tax chargesThey can't actually tell you what they are charging tax on...that is just wrong. nutcr0cker

join:2003-04-02

Chandler, AZ nutcr0cker Member well have a new legislation Ist priority is immunity for illegal activities secondly well buy all other immnunity from the republicans in the congress heck the democrats might even vote for a bill on preemptive lawsuit immunity for a few parties

Doctor Olds

I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.

Premium Member

join:2001-04-19

1970 442 W30 Doctor Olds Premium Member AT&T needs more bitch slaps from the US Court system. Jail Time. Can't touch this.... Got to love that Judge. Yo AT&T, your frail attempt to erode our rights was busted, now just wait until we get wiretap immunity overturned.Jail Time. Can't touch this....

•••••••• show 8 replies

hah

@swbell.net hah Anon hah now ross has a reason to keep paying att ross7

join:2000-08-16 2 edits ross7 Member Re: hah

ATT_RSA_2008.pdf

1,223,725 bytes

AT&T RSA 2008

AT&T_BSA_2008.pdf

480,532 bytes

AT&T Business Services Agreement said by hah :



now ross has a reason to keep paying att

Just want to let you know I investigated the availability of alternative telco telecommunications services in my area. There are NONE. The only CLEC is a business line only player; XO Communications. Period!



The alternative to telco is COMCAST. Which is no alternative at all. Basic package is $66.00/mo, plus taxes and un-fees, for HSI and VoIP, or HSI and CableTv, etc.. No reliable 911. No battery back-up. No servers allowed, blocked ports customary, along with usage caps, throttling of P2P, etc.. TOS just as onerous and one-sided as AT&T.



So, my only real alternative is to keep the AT&T business line, the COVAD ADSL service, and port my current telephone numbers to a VoIP provider before canceling the two AT&T residential lines I've had for 30+ years. A ROYAL PITA!!!



I was resigned to do so, then, yesterday, I received the new AT&T Business Services Agreement...I will scan and post the AT&T Business Services Agreement within the hour.

----------



Well, that took a little longer than anticipated. Seems COVAD had some scheduled maintenance to do at my C.O., and though they informed my ISP, Digizip, Digizip FAILED to warn me about it!! They are 100% consistent, having NEVER notified me re any scheduled maintenance, EVER! Just want to let you know I investigated the availability of alternative telco telecommunications services in my area. There are NONE. The only CLEC is a business line only player; XO Communications. Period!The alternative to telco is COMCAST. Which is no alternative at all. Basic package is $66.00/mo, plus taxes and un-fees, for HSI and VoIP, or HSI and CableTv, etc.. No reliable 911. No battery back-up. No servers allowed, blocked ports customary, along with usage caps, throttling of P2P, etc.. TOS just as onerous and one-sided as AT&T.So, my only real alternative is to keep the AT&T business line, the COVAD ADSL service, and port my current telephone numbers to a VoIP provider before canceling the two AT&T residential lines I've had for 30+ years. A ROYAL PITA!!!I was resigned to do so, then, yesterday, I received the new AT&T Business Services Agreement...I will scan and post the AT&T Business Services Agreement within the hour.----------Well, that took a little longer than anticipated. Seems COVAD had some scheduled maintenance to do at my C.O., and though they informed my ISP, Digizip, Digizip FAILED to warn me about it!! They are 100% consistent, having NEVER notified me re any scheduled maintenance, EVER! Methadras

join:2004-05-26

Spring Valley, CA 1 recommendation Methadras Member get rid of fine print altogether There should be zero reason for fine print at all in any legal document or contract. If someone can legitimately explain to me why they are there I'm all eyes.

Iohyoueetoyoume

@comcast.net Iohyoueetoyoume Anon It's about damn freakin time man! I love these level headed judges who can actually and DO actually use their power to do what is right. We need more judges who understand that BIG companies are out for number one when they advertise they're all about customer service. If customer service really was a company's number one policy then there would be a lot less fine print. tmc8080

join:2004-04-24

Brooklyn, NY tmc8080 Member Means to an end... There is an answer to all of this.. if you can't accept the terms of the contract.. don't sign it in the first place!

Yell, scream, bitch and moan right in the store that you will not sign a contract which includes binding arbitration (or other limitation of your rights as a consumer to challenge their billing / service quality). Telecom companies have had the rugs pulled out from under them with VOIP and they think they can have free access to your wallet in the cell phone industry... well, let me tell you my friend, WIRELESS VOIP will begin to eat away at your cell phone customers too, whether or not you cripple smart phone wireless voip capability or not. IMO, cell phones are only really good for "must carry" service such as "911" which must work even if a phone has no activation. Subscribe and that's where the major carriers have you over a barrel. Would they even think of trying this contract crap if you were subscribing to a landline? Hells no.



Cellular phone service should become much cheaper than it is.. but because you have greed in the auctioning off of (your government owned fcc property) spectrum, greed in the companies who make handsets, greed in the companies who supply upgraded cell phone network equipment and greed upon the companies who supply service... you have a service which should be dirt cheap by now.. but is not due to all these hands aiming for your wallet even before you walk into the store.



Sure, gasoline should be under $2 a gallon too, but is it? No.. several complicated intertwining issues cause it to be $3, 4, 5 a gallon and more.. so the real answer is, when will the price be high enough to break the backs of the consumer to finally choose alternatives in droves? Probably not before a major bailout of one or more of the big 3 auto makers.



I always use the adage, it's your money before you decide to give it to them. In a poor economy, buyers can sometimes be in the drivers seat if they form boycott coalitions against companies who play the game that plays the consumer for a fool. AT&T is but one of these.. ncbill

Premium Member

join:2007-01-23

Winston Salem, NC ncbill Premium Member Re: Means to an end... Contractual terms cannot abrogate rights granted to the consumer under statute.



The reality is that there is usually only one telco provider in a given market.



As a regulated monopoly, that telco will be subject to strict statuatory requirements by the state utilities commission.



Whether you agree or not, those are the restrictions the telco accepts if they want to continue doing business in that state. ross7

join:2000-08-16 ross7 Member Re: Means to an end... said by ncbill:



Contractual terms cannot abrogate rights granted to the consumer under statute.



The reality is that there is usually only one telco provider in a given market.



As a regulated monopoly, that telco will be subject to strict statuatory requirements by the state utilities commission.



Whether you agree or not, those are the restrictions the telco accepts if they want to continue doing business in that state.

Contractual terms cannot abrogate rights granted to the consumer under statute.The reality is that there is usually only one telco provider in a given market.As a regulated monopoly, that telco will be subject to strict statuatory requirements by the state utilities commission.Whether you agree or not, those are the restrictions the telco accepts if they want to continue doing business in that state.



You may have statutory protections, but most such protections may be voluntarily waived, as in the case of AT&Ts new service agreement requirements.



Not content with mandatory arbitration, AT&T insists the arbitrators may not consider the application of any law outside the provisions of the terms of the AT&T Residential, or Business, Service Agreement, and limits claims to the amount of the disputed billing, or in the case of AT&Ts gross negligence, to actual, provable damages. Punitive damages are specifically disallowed. Right to bring a class action, or participation in class action lawsuits is specifically waived, and strictly forbidden. A lawsuit for actual damages in amounts less than the cap on small claims in your jurisdiction may be brought in small claims court only, and punitive damages may not be claimed, or awarded.



You agree to indemnify and hold harmless AT&T, its officers, directors, employees, agents, assignees, subsidiaries, and affiliates from any and all liability for their acts, legal or illegal, past, present and future. Not entirely correct; AT&T has applications before the CPUC, and, I'm sure, in other states as well, to remove it from TARIFF and PUC regulation in consideration of the non-existent, purely fictional new "competitive" market for telecommunications they contend exists. They intend to set rates with minimal federal, and no state, interference in the future. Read the new service agreements, and you will find the Guide Book will define Plan features and Plan rates in the future. The "Real Plan" is to be 100% free from regulation, period. AT&T has changed the contract terms for all residential and small business services. Read the documents I posted, they are the new service agreements everyone will be subject to upon September payment in advance for October service, or on Oct. 1, 2008, whichever comes first.You may have statutory protections, but most such protections may be voluntarily waived, as in the case of AT&Ts new service agreement requirements.Not content with mandatory arbitration, AT&T insists the arbitrators may not consider the application of any law outside the provisions of the terms of the AT&T Residential, or Business, Service Agreement, and limits claims to the amount of the disputed billing, or in the case of AT&Ts gross negligence, to actual, provable damages. Punitive damages are specifically disallowed. Right to bring a class action, or participation in class action lawsuits is specifically waived, and strictly forbidden. A lawsuit for actual damages in amounts less than the cap on small claims in your jurisdiction may be brought in small claims court only, and punitive damages may not be claimed, or awarded.You agree to indemnify and hold harmless AT&T, its officers, directors, employees, agents, assignees, subsidiaries, and affiliates from any and all liability for their acts, legal or illegal, past, present and future.

pnh102

Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty

Premium Member

join:2002-05-02

Mount Airy, MD pnh102 Premium Member Not a Bad Start I'd personally like to see class action lawsuits either banned or severely restricted. All they do is enrich lawyers and leave "victims" with a pittance of a "reward" as justice. Meanwhile, the prices of everything we pay continue to go up because someone has to pay for the jackpot for the lawyers. omniart6

join:2001-05-24

Elmhurst, IL omniart6 Member Quality Right. I had to redo a "Professional Plumber's" job becauseit leaked. My DIY job even looked better than the union job! axus

join:2001-06-18

Washington, DC axus Member statutory rights? I think some rights can't be signed away in a contract, I believe the right term is "statutory rights". The next step should be some kind of sanction for contract writers who include that kind of language, so that the court's time isn't wasted.

shortckt

Watchen Das Blinken Lights

Premium Member

join:2000-12-05

Tenant Hell shortckt Premium Member No competing landline carrier I received my new ATT fine-print contract in the mail this month with the compelled arbitration clause. If I don't like the new contract my choices are 1-keep my landline and shut up; 2-cancel my service and go elsewhere.



I've been a Pac Bell customer at this residence for the last 17 years. It wasn't my choice to be bought out by the death star and have these restrictive, and seems now illegal, contract terms forced on me. There is no landline CLEC in this area, but there is cable phone service which IMO is not equivalent.



Although the court case was in WA not in my home state of CA i'm happy to see that ATT was knocked down a notch in some small way. As I understand it two parties cannot enter into a contract to agree to overlook rights granted to the parties by statute, or to do some act that is against the law.

yolarry

join:2007-12-29

Creston, WV yolarry Member eh I hate those fine prints!

GlobalMind

Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy

Premium Member

join:2001-10-29

Indianapolis, IN GlobalMind Premium Member Demand more than you should be allowed to...



Really it doesn't quite work that way. But until they're challenged on it, it'll stand.



Pretty much SOP. Just like a company who tries to get you to sign non-compete sorry you can't work in your industry if you leave us for 6 mos crap when your state specifically forbids such actions.



What I'm surprised I haven't seen much of in this thread yet are the "you can always change carriers" people. They usually come out in droves for this type of thing. Oh and then the "consumer just doesn't want to pay" crowd. They're usually in this talk too. Really what it comes down to is AT&T or any other carrier will embed pretty well whatever they like into the ToS until challenged otherwise. Since the services agreement is supposedly seen as a binding contract they think they can ask for whatever they like and if you agree you're screwed.Really it doesn't quite work that way. But until they're challenged on it, it'll stand.Pretty much SOP. Just like a company who tries to get you to sign non-compete sorry you can't work in your industry if you leave us for 6 mos crap when your state specifically forbids such actions.What I'm surprised I haven't seen much of in this thread yet are the "you can always change carriers" people. They usually come out in droves for this type of thing. Oh and then the "consumer just doesn't want to pay" crowd. They're usually in this talk too.

ctceo

Premium Member

join:2001-04-26

South Bend, IN ctceo Premium Member Waiving Rights It should be important to note here that their are quite a few rights that CANNOT be legally waived. A perfect example of this is companies that try to get you to sign non-overtime waivers. your comment..

