Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

-Reduce the utility of people using the network, even if the higher fees

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

don't reduce their amount of transactions.

don't reduce their amount of transactions.

to identify more concrete ways in which "utility is reduced".

-Reduce the utility of people using the network, even if the higher fees"Utility" like "value" is always subjective and very vague. I preferto identify more concrete ways in which "utility is reduced".

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

-Make some use cases nonviable, depriving people of Bitcoin's

-Make some use cases nonviable, depriving people of Bitcoin's

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

benefits.

benefits.

unclear which ones don't fit yet.

But the amount of use cases supported is not a valid metric for

decentralization.

decentralizedIt is clear that not all use cases fit the blockchain, but it's stillunclear which ones don't fit yet.But the amount of use cases supported is not a valid metric fordecentralization.

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

In any case, it would be interesting if we could list some concrete

cases that would be lost.

In any case, it would be interesting if we could list some concretecases that would be lost.

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

-Discourage experimentation with new Bitcoin use cases, making it more

unlikely that such cases are discovered/improved/popular before Bitcoin's

security relies on having many users.

-Discourage experimentation with new Bitcoin use cases, making it moreunlikely that such cases are discovered/improved/popular before Bitcoin'ssecurity relies on having many users.

I'm following on this one.

Experimentation can be done with worthless testchains. I'm not sureI'm following on this one.

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

-Reduce the amount of time we have between now and when tx fees need to pay

Post by Elliot Olds via bitcoin-dev

for a significant portion of Bitcoin's security, by keeping the exchange

rate and thus the value of block rewards low

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_exchange)

for a significant portion of Bitcoin's security, by keeping the exchangerate and thus the value of block rewards low(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_exchange)

-Reduce the amount of time we have between now and when tx fees need to payRelated to exchange rate.

Change 'utility' to 'money.' I'm just saying that paying more money for thesame thing is worse for users. If I'm a user who is used to making txns for1 cent each and suddenly all my txns cost 1 dollar each. then the benefit Iget for each of my transactions that I still make is reduced by 99 centsper tx. This is as concrete a negative effect as I can imagine. It mightseem obvious that this is a cost, but it seems to be ignored by a lot ofparticipants.Not sure what you mean by "valid metric for decentralization." I thoughtthe goal here was to list all negative consequences of high fees. Not justconsequences to decentralization. We're trying to figure out how to tradeoff risks to decentralization against these other things we're listingwhich aren't necessarily about decentralization (such as reduced use cases).If tx fees rise to $1, then I'll stop making on-blockchain purchases ofless than about $100, meaning pretty much all retail purchases areeliminated. It's hard to list a lot of use cases that will be lost becauseBitcoin usage is very low right now. I assume most of us believe that thereare lots of interesting use cases that have not developed yet. Just becausethey don't exist now doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that high feesmight make them nonviable.Some examples of stuff that doesn't exist now but might be prevented orsignificantly harmed by high fees: small international remittances, machineto machine payments, decentralized prediction markets (maybe people likemaking lots of small bets). Just take any potential use case you can thinkof: if the per-tx benefit to the person is less than $1, then $1 tx feeswill prevent it. See below for another example.I think this is one of the most important costs to worry about. So much ofexperimentation can't be done on a testchain, because most experiments thatare being done by early stage companies are about product market fit, andwhich services are valuable to users.Let's say that you and I start a company that allows people to charge moneyto people who want to email/message them. There are so many things that weneed to figure out that can't be figured out without participating in theactual market, with real people, who are really trying to use our service.It might take us years of making little tweaks to the product before we hiton some solution that people finally like enough to use in large numbers.Let's say that right now tx fees are $1, and imagine that the highestamount that most people are willing to pay to email people is 25 cents. Ifwe are experimenting in a market with $1 tx fees, perhaps our company willjust die and we'll never figure out how to bring people this service thatthey want. Perhaps there are a lot of other innovations relating to 'pay tomessage' that would have otherwise been developed (maybe celebrities likedoing AMAs via pay-to-message and devote the funds to charities. Maybe thisbecomes a huge source of charitable giving in the future), but becauseBitcoin's high fee environment didn't allow us to explore these ideas, thiswhole service category goes undeveloped for many years.Elsewhere you write "I believe 'fear of exchange rate declining' canprobably be added to any concern/risk 'leaf', so we should probably leavethat for the end or just omit it."It's true that you could tell some indirect story about how pretty muchanything could affect the exchange rate, but separate from all thehypothetical stories there is a strong theoretical reason to believe thatthe exchange rate will be higher the more value is transacted in theBitcoin ecosystem. See the wiki link on the equation of exchange. Morepeople using Bitcoin for transactions will drive up the price, all elsebeing equal. Perhaps many people care about the price for irrelevantreasons (they just want to be rich), but as long as Bitcoin's security istied to the exchange rate via block rewards, it's also an importantconsideration for security.