Recently I had the opportunity to practice some Street Epistemology with some Mormon Missionaries from Utah that were out proselytizing. It was an awesome experience for me because as a former LDS member during my teen years; I was able to look back at some of my old beliefs and scrutinize them after coming out the other side of religion an Atheist. It also would be my first formal Epistemological interview on religious claims. I had informally been talking with friends about, a universal creator and Bigfoot. But not strangers who were sent by the spirit to bring Gods people back to Zion!

I was unable to meet with them the first time they knocked at my door but I took the pamphlets they gave me and scheduled a time for them to teach me more about their church. I did not disclose that I was an ex-member because I didn’t want the conversation to get distracted and focus on me. It was the claims brought by the Missionaries I had intended to wrestle with, not my past. I believe my strategy payed off.

It is a hard thing as an Atheist to bite your tongue as wild claims were slowly lobbed in your direction and just let them slip by and not line drive them with your bat of truth right back at the pitcher. I had a lot of time to hone my skills and strike at that perfect pitch. That perfect toss was “I know because I felt it was true.”

I had invited them in and I knew above all I needed to steer clear of getting mired in doctrine and the Book of Mormon. So when the Missionaries had asked me why I invited them back to study: I told them that I was fascinated by religion and had interviewed many people of faith about their beliefs. I want to know what is true, that I had read the pamphlets they gave me. The claims in these booklets were interesting but I was more interested in why do you believe?

(The following reenactment is based on notes and memory of the conversation but I will try to represent both sides accurately and capture the essence of the discussion.)

After introductions and some small talk of guitars and video games we got down to business.

Elder M: Do you have faith in Christ?

I do not.

Elder M: Why did you invite us back?!

I actually have talked to many different people about their beliefs and I find religion to be fascinating.

Elder M: So do you know much about the Bible?

I know some of the basics about Christianity and the Bible from the people I’ve talked too. I’ve read the pamphlets you gave me but I am more interested in why people believe what they do.The belief is important; but I find that Why you believe is more important.

Elder M: Ya, the Why is definitely a big part of it.

Why do you believe in your Church?

(Bearing a testimony is compulsively stressed as evidence to persuade non-believers in the LDS church.)

Elder M: I kind of always knew it was true but I had to know for sure, for myself. So I studied as much as I could. I knew I had to pray to know if it was true. I prayed to know if the The Book of Mormon was true and I’ve had special moments when praying about it. It was the hope and joy I felt when pondering these things. I can’t deny it is true, the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith’s story was true. That is why I believe. I want other people to feel that hope and joy I did. That is why I’m out here.

Was it the same for you Elder R?

Elder R: Yes but my experience was a little different than Elder M’s. Your experience might also be different for you. I’ve asked God myself; I prayed and asked. He showed me it was true and It was more powerful than anything in my life. I would be lost without it and so would all people.

I find it interesting that you both had unique but also similar experiences that lead you to the same faith. The people I’ve talked too also had unique stories but a similar experience. One man from the World Mission Society Church of God had studied his scriptures intently and said that he had listened to his parents but had to know for himself. God had revealed that his church was True. He felt it deep in his heart. So strongly that he was out in service much like yourselves.

How can feeling somethings true lead people to two different religions that are similar but so far apart in belief?

Elder R: The main difference between our Church is that when Jesus was on the earth he performed miracles and taught. Jesus left his disciples to teach and they were killed. The original teachings were lost and mixed with other churches. If I could read a scripture to you….

I would like to go more into your scripture but like the other man that came to my door. He said he felt that his scriptures were true. You also said you had a feeling your scriptures were true. Its hard to dive into it if you both had a feeling….

Elder M: There is a scripture in the BOM that tells how we can know God’s truths. Moroni says that we can know truth of all things through the power of the Holy Ghost. These things had..um..they didn’t stay on their true course……

Elder R: There is an analogy….God’s truth is like a stained glassed window beautiful and ornate. When there wasn’t anybody to lead his true church it was like the glass was dropped and fragmented into many pieces. Churches took pieces of the glass or doctrine and added things or they only had part of the truth. So having the Holy Ghost can lead us to those truths and he teaches us what is true regardless of it’s nature. That what these people have felt.

You believe that every Church has a truth and that the Holy Ghost can lead us to these truths despite the fragments of the truth it can be revealed to us?

Elder R: Yes the Holy Ghost will tell us when it’s true.

Elder M: We have the fullness of the truth and we don’t add or take away from it. We are here to present the full joy God has for us.

It’s kind of confusing where the Holy Ghost can reveal a bit of truth to everyone. That truth; or the feeling you get towards that truth, can compel someone to the Mormon church or a completely different church. How can you tell the difference in how he prompts you to half of a truth or the full truth?

Elder M & R : That is a great Question…

Elder R: It’s not supposed to be easy to come to a great truth. If it was easy there wouldn’t be a point to do it. If it was easy to make money than everyone would be rich. Some things are supposed to be hard; and to know truth, God wants us to work for it. This would be less confusing if I could share the History of the Church and why we have the full truth and maybe you could have questions answered along the way. Does that work for you?

To an extent….you say you believe these things because of a feeling. A feeling that could lead you to either or. I find it hard to believe that someone who is so convicted in their faith to go door to door and meet with complete strangers didn’t work hard in their belief also.

Elder R: The true teaching were lost and mixed it with others….There was a boy who was pulled to all these different truths. So Joseph Smith learned from his bible if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god….. (I will spare you the full Joseph Smith story of his revelation and inspiration for starting his own/Gods church.)

God has always had Prophets on this Earth . I prayed and asked God if this is true and he gave me a feeling that it was true. I ask questions about other religions and I find truth through the scriptures. I hope that makes sense.

It makes sense this is what you believe….

Elder M: The only way to know this is God’s church is not from peoples dedication but from praying and asking God if it is true. The only way to know is to pray and ask.

Elder R: That’s why we say it’s a feeling and it’s somethi…..

I’m sorry but I have a question?

Elder R: Go ahead.

Can feelings lead you to a wrong conclusion?

Elder R: Yes…they can.

So are feelings a good way to know what is true?

Elder R: God loves his children and directs them through the Holy Ghost and a feeling in your heart and mind. The devil, he tries to reenact those feelings. Some feeling can lead you to do bad or evil things.

I don’t mean necessarily bad or evil, just the wrong conclusion. Let’s say you go to a car dealership and you get a good feeling from the salesmen and when you leave you check the Bluebook value of the car and notice you payed 5,000 dollars more than it’s Bluebook. It’s not evil, you were just at a disadvantage. They extra 5,000 owed might not have hurt you but you could have got a better deal based on a feeling.

If you use your feelings to know that your Church is true; someone else uses their feelings to know that their Church is true. How do we know who’s feelings are more accurate?

Elder R & M: That’s a good question.

Elder R: For me it’s in your heart and mind. It is a feeling but it makes sense in both your heart and mind. We can know by studying and praying. Do you have faith that if you pray and ask God he will answer your question?

I don’t know. You said that the Holy Ghost might give me a feeling but it could be that half truth. I can’t know if I’m feeling exactly what your feeling per se. When someone else can come and say I feel it in my heart and mind. The 7th Day Adventist. They say I know that Ellen White had divine revelations about God. I prayed and it was revealed in my heart and mind. Would you pray about our Church?

It could lead me down the wrong path.

Elder R: There is a point that we have to discern the difference between them. It brings more of that feeling than any other because it is true. We have the authority given by God and can give the fullness of the Holy Ghost. You have to be baptized…

So I can’t know the truth fully until I’m baptized into the church?

Elder M: No, you can.

Elder R: That’s just an example of the authority we have.

I’m sorry you said it was the fullness of the Holy Ghost?

Elder R: When your Baptized you get the Holy Ghost and he is with you always to guide and direct you. Would you be willing to pray about this?

I don’t believe feelings are good way to know if something is true. I want to believe as many truth things as possible and as few false things as possible. I would like to pray to God to know if it’s true but I would need more than feeling to know. because a feeling could lead me to the wrong conclusion. I would need more evidence.

Elder R: What kind of evidence would you need from God?

If there was a God? He would know what evidence I would need to convince me.

Elder R: When have you felt peace and joy in your life?

Me: When I’m out hiking in nature and enjoying the air and life around me.

Elder R: That’s the time we can be alone and reflect that God loves us. He shows us he’s true by feeling those feelings and joy and peace. That’s the feeling we get when we know it’s true.

What if someone feels joy and peace in their religion?

Elder R: It’s different. There is a difference in those feelings.

People don’t feel good in their church?

Elder R: They do but it’s in a different way.

I can’t say how other people are feeling? It would be disingenuous for me to have a friend show me his new video game and he feels that it’s the best video game of all time! and for me to say; “You don’t really feel that way.”

Elder R: Well that’s just item or a thing….

I know…. but If someone goes into their Church and feels the spirit and you feel the spirit when you enter your church. Who is correct?

Elder M: We don’t want to discredit other people so we invite you to read the BOM and pray about it. That is the only way to know.

I would like too but I would need more than a feeling about it. I don’t know what that might be but if there was a God he would know what I would need to come to that belief of faith.

Elder M: I don’t know how to answer your question. It might be in there {The Book of Mormon}

I appreciate you sharing with me and I enjoy talking to people about why they believe.

Elder R: God loves you and you can know the truth. I know it’s the truth and he wants you to be a part of it and have that peace and joy. I promise that if you show faith and ask God. He well give you an answer and you will feel it and not just like you had before but different from other feelings.

Then we exchanged pleasantries and I showed them out.

I think this went really well and I know I may have dropped the ball on some of these Questions I should have pressed harder and used feeling to discover truth in general and maybe not dwell so long on the outsider test of faith.

Please be respectful in the comments and don’t be afraid to give feedback or advise for future discussions.

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Tags: athiesm, athiest, dialog, epistemology, gnosis, knowlege, Later Day Saints, LDS, religion, truth