llamabagel:

Feminism wants to fix these problems, and here’s why, in detail:

These are problems that arise from patriarchal assumptions about Men and Women - especially its focus on hypermasculinity - the very thing feminism wants to fix.

But moreover, this isn’t a competition to see if Men or Women have it worse, either. Men do experience sexism, and most of these points are true. What is dishonest is to look at these issues and say feminism has no point, is misandrist, or try to prove one’s stance as an MRA.

OP said “MRAs often take it personally when you tell them not to do that misogynist thing.” The commenter’s response is not a response to OP’s point. This response seems to be an attempt to justify an MRA position that is, ostensibly, not based on misogyny.

HOWEVER…

All of the reasons the commenter lists are reasons be a feminist. These are feminist issues. These issues became problems while Women were expected to be the ‘weaker sex’ and Men were supposed to run the world. Women did not ruin the world for Men. Men ruin the world for Men. Let’s all fix it. Feminists want these issues fixed.

ANSWERS

Here is a one nearly comprehensive post, and could be taken as a complete rebuttal to the commenter’s response. Here is another, addressing and citing resources to answer many of the issues the commenter raises. These two links could serve as a complete rebuttal.

Other people have also commented on this post to this effect, but not in much detail yet, that I’ve seen. But I want look at each point here to show how this is not just empty words and links. Again, my goal here is primarily not to disprove the facts the commenter presented, but clarify a more context-aware interpretation. A lot of credit for organizing and sourcing this response will go to this article. (I have capitalized the focal terms Men and Women simply because improves my own reading comprehension):

The commenter likes to start off with statistics. Here are some more: Men occupy 62.5% of tenured positions in American higher education, 80% of the House of Representatives, 80-85% of the U.S. Senate, and over 92% of Forbes 400 executive CEO-level positions, 90% of school superintendent positions, 90% of athletic team owners, 100% of U.S. presidents, and 100% of people appearing on American paper money. To summarize, Men hold most of the highest positions of power and influence. To change the unfairness in our culture, we need Men to be part of this change, and we need Women to have a more equitable share of powerful positions. I want to see all of these statistics at 50% Men and 50% Women, and less bullshit assumptions going around about these two genders. Starting with all of that in mind, let’s continue.

It is not right that so many people die in wars. Here is a more reliable source that backs up the claim that 81% of war deaths are Men. However, the military has historically been a Men’s affair. There are more Men in the military even today - 85%. Additionally, many people specifically do not want Women placed in combat positions. It should follow that, proportionally, many of the deaths in war will be Men. See this article on point #3. Also, wars are started by governments and militaristic groups. These governments and groups are predominately led by Men, not Women. To deliberately oversimplify the issue, if Men do not wish to go to war and die, Men should stop forcing other Men to go die in wars. To more directly address the issue, if Men do not wish to go to war and die, Men should advocate for peace, stop using war as a method of glorifying hypermasculinity, and reaching the Men in governments and leadership positions to avoid wars (and maybe electing a more equitable number of Women, this satirical post is relevant). To frame Men’s war deaths as sexism is dishonest.

Alimony is a dated practice. It started when it was an accepted fact that Women could not make as much in the working world as Men. Today, Men should not have to pay alimony because Women should (emphasis on “should”) be earning salaries that are statistically indistinguishable from Men’s salaries. (They still don’t, though. It’s not because women chose poorer jobs - it’s because Women are devalued and ‘Women’s fields’ are devalued.) While many Women still have little wealth, things have improved, and fewer and fewer women actually need alimony. Once Women’s work stops being devalued, once Men are socially assumed to be equally adept at child-rearing, and once child care becomes universally feasible for single parents whether they are Men or Women, then we will not need alimony.

Suicides are suicides whether they are work suicides or not. Both Men and Women attempt suicide, but Women attempt it three times as often. Men are simply more successful at killing themselves because of the hypermasculine pressures and influences they learn in our culture tell them they are violent and better at death stuff, never show weakness, and always need to succeed. This does not even start to detail murder-suicides, 91% of which are perpetrated by men and nearly all associated murder victims are female.

Moreover, the simple deprivation of access to emotional support (Men are assumed to not be as emotional as Women, and are discouraged from showing weakness to other Men, and from being platonic friends with Women lest it be ‘suspect’) coupled with cultural pressure (Men are assumed to be primary breadwinners and should be ‘successful’) is not fair. Men should not be expected to be so hypermasculine, or ridiculed for expressing insecurity. Men should not have to experience stress and fear when expressing anything vaguely feminine, but they do. It should be permissible for all Men to express themselves and find emotional support just as many Women do. (For anyone who was wondering, the reason it’s called feminism is because people, including Men, should be able to do ‘feminine’ things without derision.)

Dangerous jobs primarily employ Men because, historically, Men used to work in every job - including the dangerous ones. All of them. Women were prevented from working almost everywhere, including dangerous industrial jobs. Women have experienced resistance and ridicule for trying to break into many fields, evenmany of the attractiveones, to say nothing of the resistance they face from dangerous ones. (Again, many people don’t even want to permit Women to hold combat positions in the military.) Accusing modern Women for not being employed in a given field shows, at the least, some form ignorance. Additionally, these dangerous jobs are perceived as especially masculine, glorified and highly attractive to Men in a culture that values hypermasculinity. Safety compliance is an issue, with Men complying less readily than Women and logically resulting in more fatalities, related to hypermasculine ideals of independence, risk, and proving one’s strength, and patriarchal assumptions that Men should want to ‘measure up’ to that. (The most dangerous part of work for Women? Getting murdered while on the job. Just saying.) Men shouldn’t feel so pressured to prove themselves masculine to the point where they choose dangerous jobs and get themselves killed.

We already addressed war. If you want fewer Men to die in wars, start allowing more Women in the military or better yet, start advocating against wars and stop glorifying wars as great theaters of manliness, and we could do without the drive for hypermasculinity.

In custody situations, Men could easily be assumed to be the abusers, antagonizers, or otherwise unfit for child-rearing. These are patriarchal, hypermasculine assumptions. By contrast, the more sensitive, feminine act of child-rearing is supposed to be what Women do. In reality, Men have the same capacity for compassion and child-rearing as Women. This part of Men is just ignored because it’s ‘feminine’. Also in reality, 80% of divorcing couples decide on child custody without third-party intervention. This is not ‘lost’, this is chosen. When child custody goes to mediation or trial, the statistics are also radically different. Discrepancies in third-party custody cases can indicate a problem with patriarchal assumptions about Men - assumptions that need to go. This is a really good video on hypermasculinity and patriarchal assumptions and will be useful throughout the rest of this post.

We already covered suicide and social taboos on Men’s emotions. Men should be allowed to express things that aren’t hypermasculine, like weakness and a need for help.

It is true that 77% of homicide victims are Men, but as the abstract linked continues, Men commit 85.3% of homicides. Or, according to the FBI, 90.3% of homicides are committed by Men. To address the stranger/known issue, Men are more likely to kill someone they don’t know, and are more likely to be killed by someone they don’t know. In other words, Men have the most to fear from other Men. On the flip side, Women are more likely to be killed by someone they know, again, most often a Man. Again, this is not a contest. Rather, spinning these statistics to say Men are the victimized gender when Men commit 85.3%-90.3% of homicides is dishonest.

This link on violent crime statistics is nearly 30 years old. Right or wrong, it’s time to get some new data.

We have already covered strangers vs. known assailants and victims. This is less of a repeat and more of a misguided effort to spin stranger violence as worse than known-assailant violence. Again, this is not a contest.

Criminal convictions are definitely related to cultural perceptions of violence as a part of masculinity. Men are expected to be as masculine and powerful as possible, violence is masculine, so it should follow many people assume a Man will be guilty of violence or crime more readily than a Woman. This is a problem with patriarchal assumptions and hypermasculinity.

In school and university, Men are actually encouraged to be more vocal than women throughout their academic career, and get better responses from professors. Teachers and professors probably don’t even realize they’re biased toward male students because of patriarchal assumptions about which students are the most capable and worthwhile.

Boys are often assumed to be wilder and more violent than Girls (“boys will be boys” fallacy), and people also assume they ‘can handle’ corporal punishment better than girls. There is even a song about this. I have always hated this song, and maybe you have, too. This is a problem with hypermasculinity and patriarchal assumptions about Men starting from the time they are boys.

A better source for homeless statistics. Men do comprise 77% of single homeless individuals, but Women head 84-90% of homeless families. The article discusses specific difficulties Men face when homeless, especially harsh judgment relating to powerlessness. Patriarchal assumptions work against homeless Men just as they do homeless Women. Again, men need more resources that they’re not getting because people have patriarchal assumptions that men should be able to handle themselves. Read downpage under the “money gap” answer for more details about Women and poverty.

Women’s cancers have gained momentum mainly through vigorous activism (although Men can get breast cancer, too). If more typical Men’s cancers have not yet gotten comparable research funding, you could say that is because they should participate in as much activism as Women’s cancer groups have.

We already covered alimony and custody.

When discussing domestic violence, this paper should prove extremely valuable to sort out different conditions that can lead to violence. Note that the commenter did not provide a source for this point, but the US Department of Justice survey indicated that 4.8 million assaults against Women and 2.9 million assaults against men are committed annually, and that works out to about 35% of total assaults (of all kinds) being against Men. This study also compares Men’s and Women’s violence and severity, with women expressing more fear and exhibiting more severe injuries. This is not apples-to-apples, in other words. Domestic violence is a complicated issue but has roots in patriarchal customs where it was socially acceptable to beat your wife with anything that passed the rule-of-thumb (ie. It was thinner than your thumb).

However, this is not a competition of who has it worse. Men ARE victims of physical abuse. Men SHOULD have shelters and resources to utilize when they need them. People will still believe they don’t need them because hypermasculinity assumes Men will not need them, because Men are masculine, violence is masculine, so men are the violent ones, are stronger, and would never let themselves be hurt. Patriarchal assumptions that Men are manly Men prevent Men from getting the help they need.

The fatality point is too vague to determine what the commenter meant, although I suspect we have covered it. Here are the leading causes of death broken down by age for Women and Men. While this is still not a contest, it is clear that saying fatality rates for Men are worse is dishonest.

On the “money gap” – This point seems to be about SPENDING, not earning, although it is difficult to decipher due to a lack of citations. It is dishonest to pit Men’s spending habits vs. Women’s spending habits when the Man and Woman are married or otherwise partnered, particularly, unless Men are really upset that Women are still typically expected to be the ones going grocery shopping. If anything, this proves that Men should more often be homemakers and work less, and Women should more often be the breadwinner and letting her Man manage the house and spending. This is a feminist issue. Men should not be pressured to be the primary breadwinner, and Women should not be pressured to be the homemaker.

Furthermore, it is dishonest to frame Women’s products taking up more space in stores (as some sort of ‘matriarchy’ ?? point was unclear). Women’s products are so numerous (and segregated and sometimes more expensive) because Women are highly marketed-to based on feelings of inadequacy. The more women hate themselves, the more corporations can sell to them (3:30). Beauty products to make sure you’re beautiful enough (Or even to prove you’re sane – observe that Men have not been recently socially expected to wear makeup). Rapidly changing styles (far more rapidly than Men’s fashions) to make sure you’re stylish enough. Myriad household aids are also seen as feminine because Women are still assumed to be the ones taking care of the house (because of patriarchal assumptions that Men don’t do homemaking because that’s not masculine). The fact that corporations target Women to take their money in return for items unable to solve the insecurity problems used to market them should not cause jealousy in Men. It should be obvious these marketing techniques are bad.

On taxes and healthcare – This point does not cite all its claims or statistics for this point, but this one article the commenter cited literally says men’s health care is more efficient per dollar than women’s health care. Men’s health care being more effective is not sexist against Men, and it is dishonest to frame it as such. This is also probably why there are numerically more efforts to figure out Women’s health care, to make it more effective. Trying to make Women’s health care as efficient as Men’s health care is not sexism.

Moreover, single Women are more likely to be in poverty than single Men in every state. Also, the median wealth for a single Woman ages 18-35 is $0, while for Men the median wealth ranges from $1,000 (non-white and Hispanic) to $5,600 (white). This isn’t a contest, this is just reality. Poverty-level people do not pay taxes. Poverty-level people get government assistance instead. The reasons Women outnumber Men in the poverty department are historic and multifaceted, but suffice to say this is not the government showing sexist preferential treatment toward Women, but doing what people want it to do by helping out the poor. Even at the highest levels of wealth, Women are still poorer than Men.

Again, the reasons breast cancer has so much money spent on it is largely a result of high-intensity activism, mostly by Women and Women’s groups, the levels of which are not matched by Men and Men’s groups engaging in activism to further research and funding for male-specific ailments. (Protesting the money breast cancer groups raise does not count as activism for prostate cancer groups.) It is unclear to me what the inclusion of lung cancer had to do with supposed ‘sexism’.

Although the claim about gender-specific health services is not cited, it should stand to reason that many gender-specific health services for Women are reproductive-centered. Obstetrics and gynecology are not reasons to think Women are getting preferential medical treatment.

As for actual deadly discrepancies in health care, here’s one: how do you handle a woman having a heart attack? Many people do not know because we only see Men having heart attacks in media, and paramedics are trained primarily for Men experiencing heart attacks.

On domestic violence – We have already covered this topic. Both genders have the capacity for violence. Here is a more reputable site for domestic violence/abuse. Keep in mind that even if it is true that that Men are less-victimized than Women, Men should still have shelters and other resources. Currently, Men do not have many, because people assume Men are always the violent ones, not Women. This is a patriarchal assumption.

On “government-sponsored sexism” – We have already covered the need for men’s shelters, along with patriarchal issues about crime, military drafts/service/deaths, child custody. In short, patriarchal assumptions about men hamper the development of resources and positive cultural perceptions for vulnerable men because people are too busy glorifying hypermasculinity.

It is incredibly dishonest to compare male and female genital mutilation, unless the comparison you are making is to flay all the skin off of the penis, chop off the tip, and sew the testicles to recede up into the body. That would be a comparable male genital mutilation to the FGM referenced. That said, feminists are not pro-circumcision. Feminists are anti-mutilation. Circumcision is pretty much perpetuated by Men dating back from its origins in anti-masturbatory campaigns that are nearly 100 years old (everyone loves Adam Ruins Everything, right?).

We have already covered alimony.

Feminists want to raise awareness and resources for Men who survived rape, whether the rape was perpetrated by a Man or Woman (Just to be clear, Men commit 85% of all rapes that target a Man, and 99% of all rapes that target a Woman). Feminists do not want any kind of rape considered a joke.

We have already covered ‘Man-on-Man’ violent crime.

The reason we see drives to engage women in fields where they have not been historically active is because women were actually not allowed to be there. We have already covered historical efforts to prevent women from engaging in many professional fields. Movements to establish better gender representation is not anti-Man. (See this satirical video, despite the fact that, unlike the ice cream tube, professional positions are not a zero-sum game.)

Regardless of whether it is the army, the police, firefighters, etc., it benefits a team to have a diverse team. Rescue crews especially should value a few smaller team members who can fit into smaller places to reach victims. It also benefits a team to include women, who can more easily talk to other women in our culture, and other cultures. Patriarchal social divisions between Men and Women get in the way of people doing their jobs.

This point on government and social assistance is vague and includes no references, but I will include a reminder how women were actively disenfranchised for hundreds of years, and efforts to undo that sexism are not inherently sexist.

We have already discussed patriarchal assumptions’ influence on crime and sentencing.

We have already discussed divorce and alimony. However, the accusation that divorcing women take all their ex-husband’s wealth is bunk. Divorced Women own half as much wealth as the Men they divorced. We have already discussed Women, wealth, and poverty.

We have already covered the fact that no rape should be a joke.

This is an uncited and unspecific “victim blaming” accusation. No victim is to blame.

Assumptions that men are masculine, that masculinity means violence, etc., all are part of hypermasculinity and patriarchy. These are exactly the problems I’ve been talking about this whole time, I’m glad we can agree on this point.

This is an uncited and unspecific argument, possibly alluding to the archaic “Evacuate women and children first.” This is a patriarchal assumption.

TO SUMMARIZE

The commenter just spent a few pages telling us how much they hate patriarchy and hypermasculinity and what it makes people assume about men. Feminists agree that patriarchal and hypermasculine assumptions are total horseshit and need to go. I am a feminist. Even though this is what it feels like sometimes, even though feminism has always been painted as a hate movement since the days when women wanted to vote.

So cishetwhiteoppressor, you can start cleaning up your own “shitstain” as you said, instead of calling people rude names.

(And llamabagel, those high school girls are being told not to wear pretty much the only shorts available in most teen clothing sections. The girls are punished because it might give their fellow students - or worse, adult teachers - an excuse to sexually objectify or abuse underage girls. They are already seen as sexual objects. This teacher raped a 14-year-old girl, caused the girl enough stress to commit suicide, and only got 30 days in jail because ‘his life was ruined enough’. Let’s be clear that there is no problem when the dress code is about style, but there is a big problem when the dress code is about sexual attraction to underage girls.)

(via h-n-h)