



PUBLIC POST - author, anonymous Reddit user





MY RESPONSE





ANONYMOUS





ME

I don’t care about your feelings or opinions i care about your soul.

If you died right now you would go to hell.

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME









ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

I understand what your saying i really do. But theres no point if i remain your friend on earth and you die in hell. My friendship is vanity

Your friends who are Christian if they dont preach to you. Woe to them

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

if i don’t preach the gospel nothing matters.

ANONYMOUS

ME

I don’t agree because your confusing my ability to persuade with Gods sovereignty.

You: Its not me who hardens or softens its God

Me: Sure, but there IS a human element still, no? For example, you, a human, are presenting the message. I, another human, am hearing the message. There is a large degree of interpersonal communication involved between two humans that is taking place.

You: I understand what your saying i really do.

If i sinned against you which i haven’t then let it be known.

If i knew you in real life its a different story your on the internet

ANONYMOUS

ME

I don’t care about your feelings or opinions

ANONYMOUS

ME

__________

EDIT: After a few days, the conversation was picked back up.

ANONYMOUS





ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

If you don’t understand the basics of salvation How can you come to it.

You believe in your heart that you are good That is false

ANONYMOUS





ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

ANONYMOUS

ME

Read romans 1 and 2

ANONYMOUS

ME

Aggressive religious evangelism is annoying. Like, SUPER annoying. Door-to-door evangelists, street preachers, sign holders, etc. all only have one goal: to tell you how bad of a person you are, how you're destined for an eternity of torment in God's blast chamber and how the ONLY thing that can save you is belief in Jesus. They've got a problem, though. As an atheist, this sort of thing just goes in one ear and out the other. Not only do I not believe in God, I don't believe in hell, either. So the attempted threats toward my soul (which I also don't believe in) are empty at best. Yet they're committed to slinging verbal assaults towards anyone within earshot because they "love you and care about your soul." Yeah....screw that. In-your-face evangelism not only doesn't work, it generally has the opposite effect of what was intended. Plus, as I said, it's hella obnoxious.So, in my effort to make theof dents in the landscape of these evangelists, I got into a conversation with one of them on Reddit attempting to get them to "see the error of his ways" and generally be less annoying when engaging with other people. Key word here is *attempt, because boy was he stubborn.The following conversation began on a public Reddit post, but he messaged me privately after just a few public back-and-forths. During this conversation he sent me very long strings of verses that I didn't read. I won't make you read them either, I'll just include the reference.Friend i want you to know the joy of Evangelizing. Every time i speak about the Lord with someone i am filled with joy and you can be too. Go preach. Its literally as simple as asking what do you think happens when you die.“Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."” ‭‭John‬ ‭6:26-29‬ ‭NASBAtheist here, going to add a comment that (hopefully) makes the evangelism process a little easier to manage when dealing with people in "the world."Have you ever had a door-to-door salesperson interrupt your dinner to try and sell you a vacuum? I have. It's a little annoying. Much the same, door-to-door religion sales are equally as annoying. JW's, Mormons, I've even had the local baptist church come knocking. I get that that's the traditional way of evangelizing, trying to get the message into as many hands as possible in order to get the best rate of return, but it's really only effective if your goal is quantity over quality.For a time, after my deconversion I was heavily invested in debating. My primary targets were preachers from the tradition I had left. Interestingly, a lot of these debates blossomed into friendships. Now, as an atheist, my circle is comprised of more Christians - and more preachers - than it ever was when I was actually invested in the faith. Do you know what I appreciate? I appreciate the fact that these friends DON'T actively evangelize to me. Not in the traditional sense, anyways.What if...evangelism doesn't actually look like what it's typically thought to be? What if...traditional evangelism, while fine for getting quantity, isn't as good at maintaining quality? If my minister friends are going to bring me back, it's not going to be by constantly evangelizing to me and knocking the dust off if I don't immediately accept, you know? If they really want me to listen, they're going to have to be good listeners, themselves.Food for thought.See the thing is im gonna be as blunt as possible If you died right now you would go to hell.I don’t care about your feelings or opinions i care about your soul.Unless you are born again you wont enter the kingdom of GodRight, I get that. But do you understand how ineffective that line of conversation is? Especially to someone who doesn't believe in the existence of an afterlife? You should probably be thinking about the efficacy of your approach, especially if the goal is to eventually get to a conversion. Because...... I'm honestly going to just write this off. So if you REALLY cared about someone's soul, it would behoove you to operate in a manner that will better serve the production of the desired result. If you're just telling me I'm going to hell, if you don't take into account the feelings and opinions of your interlocutor, you've already lost that round. It's ineffective. At that point, you might as well be selling vacuum's door-to-door.That's why I'm saying: maybe evangelism doesn't actually look how it's been traditionally interpreted.Your equating evangelism to church membership.I dont tell anyone i talk to about my church unless they ask it doesnt matter.So if you don’t believe in the after life or God.Why would i try to get you to church rather then convince you of the things which are eternally important.As for your hell comment yes if you died today you would go to hell. And if i wasnt born again(didnt have christ i would too.‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:10-26‬ ‭‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:18-31‬ ‭I'm not, though. I'm talking about the effectiveness of your approach. Evangelism has a goal, correct? To produce converts?If I'm completely honest, the approach you're using here in this message is going to be ineffective. I'm just going to be blunt: quoting bible verses at me and telling me I'm going to hell are not going to work.So. We're at an impasse, then. Because the method you are using isn't going to gain a convert. Not in the immediate sense. And telling me (as you did earlier) that you don't care about my feelings or opinions is only going to distance us even further. Consider, for a moment, that this particular approach has theeffect than what your immediate intention is. The only reason I'm attempting to have a conversation with you at the moment is an attempt to correct your method - letting you know howwould like to be talked to. You say you care about my soul...well, do you really? Because if your actions are pushing me further away, then that care isn't being evidenced.If you dont believe in Jesus Christ you will go to hell.Why should i focus on anything but.Do i want you to go to hell. NoSo what am i going to focus on firstPlease understand the importance of method. At the moment you are talking AT me, thereby talking PAST me.Listen, I understand that you believe there are eternal ramifications for not believing. I get it. But you also need to understand that I don't.. If you were to draw a line between the two of us that signifies the importance of a belief in God, you would be on one end, where a belief in God is of the utmost importance, and I would be at the other end, where I place no value in such a belief.You've told me three times now that I am destined for hell. For a third time now, I will tell you that your approach is ineffective. What is your goal? If your goal is to simply tell me that I'm destined for hell, then I guess mission accomplished. But what, in actuality, did you accomplish? If your goal is to actually try and gain a convert, then the method you are using is going to fail more often than not.If you don’t believe in what I’m trying to save you from it doesn’t matter. That must be established first existence. Your own conscious bears witness to God and creation its self.You can be saved from hell that you deserve because of your sins.Through faith in Jesus Christ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-31‬ ‭‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:1-20, 22-25‬ ‭I feel like you are not comprehending what I am saying.Answer this question: What is your goal in evangelizing?To hear the good news.I want you to go to heaven.Just to hear it?I cant force you to believe it that comes from GodEphesians‬ ‭1:12-14That's not what I asked.I asked what is your goal in evangelizing? You said: To hear the good news.Great. I've heard it. Now what? Is there a further goal than that? Or is your one and only goal to have me hear it and that's it?” ‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭2:1-5Can you cool it with the verses for a bit and just talk to me like a human being? Have an actual conversation. That's a good startI obviously want you to believe it.But thats not up to me its up to GodOk, cool. So you want me to believe it.Do you think your current approach is effective in softening the heart of an unbeliever enough for them to even consider the message you are proclaiming?Its not me who hardens or softens its God‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:11-24Sure, but there IS a human element still, no? For example, you, a human, are presenting the message. I, another human, am hearing the message. There is a large degree of interpersonal communication involved between two humans that is taking place.Do you think that, possibly, a hard approach is less effective than a soft approach?What do you think Paul meant in 1 Cor 9 when he said:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law.21 To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the law.22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men, so that by all possible means I might save some.I understand what your saying i really do.But theres no point if i remain your friend on earth and you die in hell. My friendship is vanityYour friends who are Christian if they dont preach to you. Woe to themI'm not asking you to be my friend. I'm requesting that you talk to me like the human being I am.Is it, though? Because it seems to me that simply proclaiming the word in a hard manner as you've been doing would be just as in vain, if not more so. At least by taking a softer approach, you increase the potential effectiveness. Sure, there is absolutely a chance that I may die without believing it. But as I've already told you, your effectiveness with a hard-line approach is, well...ineffective. But a softer approach, while not producing any immediate returns, has at least a greater potential of reaching the ultimate goal. At least I'll be more willing to listen.I make no promises that my mind will be changed. But I WILL promise you that a hard approach will be ignored every time.Who says they aren't? It's not like I'm unfamiliar with the message, you know? Maybe there's simply a different way to go about it.But the urgency isnt there.If you die you die in your sins.When do you die the Lords knows.You and I are different people, which means we have different priorities. My urgency is not your urgency, nor the urgency of anyone else's. You mentioned earlier that you are unable to force me to believe. That is correct. You are also unable to force an urgency upon me that I do not have. That's simply the way it is. Patience, in this case, would be more efficacious towards the intended result, no?At the end of the day, you appear to be committed to your particular approach. That is fine. All I'm saying is that you may do well to actually take your interlocutor into consideration as a human being, same as you, and acknowledge that we all desire for others to treat us respectfully. Having no concern for another's feelings or opinions is not a show of respect, which inherently reduces the effectiveness of the things you say. If, for example, your desire is for an unbeliever like me to come around to your position, you'll need to tailor your approach to respectfully meet me where I'm at and talk TO me, not AT me.You never did mention what you thought of Paul's words that I mentioned earlier.I acknowledge your viewpoint i don’t agree with it. Because if i don’t preach the gospel nothing matters.As for Paul he still preached Christ crucified every second. He just dod it ether under the torah law of foods and circumsion or the gentiles who had no such lawRight - much the same: I acknowledge the view you hold, yet I do not agree with it. But notice that I haven't once attempted to argue for the veracity of my own position, nor have I argued against the veracity of yours. In fact, that's not even what this conversation is about! All I've attempted to do here is show you how I, personally, would prefer to be talked to. You had mentioned earlier that you can see what I am saying. That is good. But there is still a hangup somewhere, and I think I've identified it in something you've just said here:Is there only one way to present the gospel? Coming from a rather conservative Christian tradition myself, Ithere is more thanone way, and I would think that you know that, too. Why is it that this particular method, in your eyes, is the most advantageous?Do you agree that a hard approach has a greater likelihood of pushing people away?Do you disagree that a gentler approach, while requiring more interpersonal effort, has a greater potential for effectiveness?I don’t agree because your confusing my ability to persuade with Gods sovereignty.If i sinned against you which i haven’t then let it be known.If i knew you in real life its a different story your on the internetForgive me, but I think we're circling back to points that were already discussed. Remember this part of the conversation from earlier:This isn't about your ability to persuade. It's about communicating in such a way where the receiving party is in a position to let their guard down for a moment to actually listen to what you have to say. A hard approach is a barrier-builder, not a barrier-breaker. God may soften the heart, sure, but you hold the key!You misunderstood: I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was simply pointing out that the conversation we're having isn't about whether or not either of our positions is the more accurate one, it's about coming together in a way that makes communication effective. It's about hearing and being heard; listening and being listened to.I don't understand why the medium matters. Have I given you any indication that I am looking to argue with you? Or be aggressive towards you? Or that I am somehow an internet troll of some sort? What makes me less deserving of a fair exchange, simply because I'm a stranger on the internet?To be perfectly honest i don’t have the time.Thats why i would rather you have the message knowing i cant complete it.‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭3:5-11‬ ‭Like i love and want you to come to Christ but i dont have the time to speak to you dailyTo be clear: I'm not asking you to be my friend and I'm not asking you to speak to me daily - just treat me like a human being, same as you. But, I completely understand your position and I appreciate the honesty, I really do.I guess...let me leave you with something to chew on for a bit:You had mentioned very early on that -I don't think that's entirely true. I, as a human being interacting and engaging with other human beings, care about how my words and actions effect other people. I care because I recognize that other people's words and actions have an effect on me. I recognize the fact that - in order for me to be shown respect and dignity - I must also show respect and dignity to other people. Because I'm able to, as a human being, recognize that fact in myself, I also extend that same line of reasoning to other human beings. This is why I don't think the quotation above is entirely accurate - becausea human,If I met you on the street, I would treat you no differently than I am treating you now. Sure, we may disagree on a few fundamentals, but at the end of the day, you're still a human being, just as I am, with thoughts, feelings, emotions and beliefs that deserve to be acknowledged and respected. As such, I will only ever talk to you in a way that is respectful and fair to you as an individual, EVEN IF we are discussing a point of disagreement.Now, I realize that the hard approach is the easier road to take. The message is out, "" and if it sticks, it sticks, if it doesn't, it doesn't. This approach doesn't require much time, nor much interpersonal effort, and successfully carries out the command to evangelize...yet you and I both know that this approach is limited in its effectiveness. How many times has the message just bounced off the recipient and left ignored? This would certainly be because that individuals' barriers were still erected. There was no effort made to lower their shields.But...imagine a world where all Christians utilized a soft approach instead of a hard one. Sure, one individual may not have all of the time in the world to dedicate to a slow, soft approach, but what if every Christian an unbeliever encountered took a kinder, gentler approach? Do you think that, over time, the likelihood of reaching any one unbeliever would be increased? I'd say that it would be. My preacher friends didn't start out as friends, they started out as people to argue with. But they took a soft approach with me which has resulted in a softer approach myself and they are now in a better position to speak to me in a manner that I would actually be receptive to. Contrast that with any random stranger on the internet telling my I'm going to hell...I'd tell them just the same as I told you: that is entirely ineffective.Is a soft approach as easy as a hard one? Certainly not. It requires patience, it requires more time and it requires more interpersonal effort. Yet, if more people opted for this approach versus the easier one...what is the maxim, ''? At that point, it wouldn't matter if you had the time to speak with me daily. At that point, every Christian I could encounter would lower my barriers, little by little, until eventually someone had the opportunity to reach me effectively. Sure, there very well may be a chance that no one reaches me at that level...but the chances are much higher under one method over the other, and I think you and I both know that this would ultimately be the more effective of the two.I guess all I'm saying is...consider it.I don't know what your opinion about atheists is...given my own anecdotal experience of being an atheist on the internet...I'd imagine it probably isn't a good one (obviously, there is plenty of room for me to be wrong here, so if I'm assuming incorrectly, forgive me). If that is the case (or even if it isn't), I do hope our brief interaction today has left you with a positive impression.In any case, I hope you have a good evening.‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭64:5-9‬ ‭You may be a nice person but your still a sinner.And God does hate sinners.Man. Literally the exact opposite of what you should have said. Ah, well.I understand you wanna be a light of some sortsBridge between Christian and AtheistThose things are uselessYou need a bridge between you and GodAnd if you don’t have the bridgeYou’ll fall straight into hell.HEBREWS‬ ‭2:1-4People coming together is useless? What a stark worldview, man.I'm just living my life, trying to be a good person and not be an asshole to people.I don't believe in god and I don't believe in hell. I keep telling you over and over that the hellfire and brimstone isn't going to work. The only thing that aggressively pushing that narrative is going to do is make people ignore you. This is human psychology 101, here. The only reason I talked to you so long was in an attempt to show you what would get me to want to listen to you in an evangelistic context. I told you time and again that the 'turn or burn' thing was fruitless, yet you continued to double down, over and over. I could have simply ignored you like I would anyone else who refused to be an active listener/participant in a conversation. Even as a christian, I understood the benefit of being fair and equitable to other people, but this...? You've got things backwards. If you don't see the benefit in tailoring your approach to the individual you are talking to, I don't know what to tell you, man. Good luck with that, I guess?There is no good peopleThat's the only thing you picked up out of this? Come ON dude.If you don’t understand the basics of salvationHow can you come to it.You believe in your heart that you are goodThat is falseBecause it's not up to me, remember? It's up to god. At least, according to our conversation. Something, something, it's not based on your ability to persuade, but on god's softening of my heart? So if I don't understand the basics of salvation, that's up to god then to help me out. Whenever he's ready.But in reality...I'm aware of the basics of salvation. Several different conceptions of them, in fact, based on several different doctrines regarding what it means to be saved. It's all interesting to think about...but at the end of the day, I don't believe it.This is only under certain christian frameworks. TULIP and a few others. Considering I don't go along with Christianity, it follows that I don't go along with this, either. Do you really think this approach is effective? Like, at all? Or is it more about following orders first and foremostIf you truly look and examine yourself.You can see there is no goodThere has never been a day in our life when we have truly been good.Look back on the day you would want to be judged by and look at the iniquity in it.‭‭MARK‬ ‭10:17-18‬What standard do you suggest I use to perform this examination?Jesus Christ on one side You on the otherYou mean the Jesus Christ who's divinity I don't believe in? If I find no value in the standard, what do you think this examination will accomplish?It seems to me like what you're saying is - if I believe in Jesus who tells me I'm not good, then I'll realize that I'm not good...not really going to accomplish much there, I don't thinkThats the holy spirits jobWho convictsThe worldYou do realize its trueFor the sake of pride And the argument you don’t agree thoughOk, so we're back to square one, then. It's not ME who's going to do the convincing here, it's god. Great. So I'll just sit back and wait for that to happen, then.Wait, are you telling me that I, who does not believe in a god, actually DO believe in a god? And specifically the christian god? More specifically the christian god as portrayed by a reformed, calvinist theology? And that it's due to pride that I don't agree? So, what, am I lying to you when I say I don't believe? Am I lying to myself? You're blowing my mind, hereRead romans 1 and 2When I said "you're blowing my mind," to be clear, what I did not mean was that you were making sense to me. It was most definitely an exasperative statement of bewilderment that you would tell me what and why I [dis]believe. It's hilariously sad that you think you have everything so figured out that you can pinpoint the exact reason for any specific persons disbelief. I tell you what, I certainly enjoy being told what and why I believe something. You know me better than I know myself, apparently.Been there; done that. So I'm going to go ahead and pass.1 CORINTHIANS 15:22 CORINTHIANS‬ ‭4:3-5Satan has blinded your mindAnd its not me who says it but the word2 CORINTHIANS‬ ‭6:1-2‬Listen man. You’ve failed to comprehend what I’ve continued to tell you: the hellfire and constant bible verses are nothing more than an annoyance. Remember when I was telling you how you should change your approach so I would at least want to talk to you? Well, you didn’t. And now I don’t wanna talk to you. Feel free to come back if you want to have an actual conversation like a normal human being, but if you’re just going to continue to regurgitate bible verses, I’m just going to ignore you from here on out.