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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 21, 2014, 08:57:06 PM

Last edit: January 24, 2014, 05:06:44 AM by Altoidnerd #1



What are the desired properties of an ideal, non-deterministic hardware RNG amenable to open source initiatives and furthermore would invite introduction in specialized hardware for the bitcoin protocol?



Things to consider:



 physical size

 power consumption

 I/O

 safety (chlorides are a bit toxic)

 price range

? everything. Thinking caps on please - think outside the box and consider all possibilities. I need your help to do this.



Please do NOT post "we don't need this, we have deterministic RNGs that work and we can use this curve and bla bla..." - please respect my inquiry. Thank you.



Questions about NMR/NQR are welcome and I will answer all of them, but should perhaps be moved elsewhere if there are many.



Editted: rearranged the thread to answer the "how can it communicate to the user with radioshack parts" question:



Transistor gates



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor%E2%80%93transistor_logic



It is easier of course to use op-amps, but they are black boxes. However by now, many op-amps are essentially open source...of course you never do know what is inside it, only how it performs.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter



This is pretty much all it has to do; the NQR FID is (when averaged) an exponentially damped sinusoid and is much like this picture. A very simple circuit would do the trick. Here is a graphic from wikipedia







Here is my data of the transient response in NaClO 3 at 29.936 MHz averaged over several thousand pulses







With signal averages, the voltage induced in the coil by the magnetization of the material converges to the nice curve above. However, if only one or a few pulses are used to collect data, the picture is quite different







The above image in black was produced by me with the raw data. Here is the corresponding one produced by the same dysfunctional labview program used to display the first image of the clean FID







I should note the third/fourth image is of a single crystal while the second one was taken for a polycrystalline sample, which eliminates beats due to the earth's magnetic field.



The probe circuit and pre-amplifier of an NQR implementation can be quite simple; I designed this one to use transistors I know are stocked by radio-shack. The power supply is a 9V battery







To collect and represent the data I have shown, I used a sophistocated DAQ board. However, all that is needed is a type of level detector.



Here is a graphic I found online for a simple level detector using only 1 BJT







But I wouldn't necessarily use this design.

I plan to further the initiative for open source analog technologies for bitcoin, including provably un-backdoored hardware RNG's as a consequence alongside my regular research on the magnetic resonance of quadrupolar nuclei. IMO, solid state magnetic resonance has the potential to present a source of quantum entropy that is inexpensive, extremely simple in design, cheap, small, and...[community input]Things to consider: physical size power consumption I/O safety (chlorides are a bit toxic) price range? everything. Thinking caps on please - think outside the box and consider all possibilities. I need your help to do this.Questions about NMR/NQR are welcome and I will answer all of them, but should perhaps be moved elsewhere if there are many.Transistor gatesIt is easier of course to use op-amps, but they are black boxes. However by now, many op-amps are essentially open source...of course you never do know what is inside it, only how it performs.This is pretty much all it has to do; the NQR FID is (when averaged) an exponentially damped sinusoid and is much like this picture. A very simple circuit would do the trick. Here is a graphic from wikipediaHere is my data of the transient response in NaClOat 29.936 MHz averaged over several thousand pulsesWith signal averages, the voltage induced in the coil by the magnetization of the material converges to the nice curve above. However, if only one or a few pulses are used to collect data, the picture is quite differentThe above image in black was produced by me with the raw data. Here is the corresponding one produced by the same dysfunctional labview program used to display the first image of the clean FIDI should note the third/fourth image is of a single crystal while the second one was taken for a polycrystalline sample, which eliminates beats due to the earth's magnetic field.The probe circuit and pre-amplifier of an NQR implementation can be quite simple; I designed this one to use transistors I know are stocked by radio-shack. The power supply is a 9V batteryTo collect and represent the data I have shown, I used a sophistocated DAQ board. However, all that is needed is a type of level detector.Here is a graphic I found online for a simple level detector using only 1 BJTBut I wouldn't necessarily use this design.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 21, 2014, 09:13:38 PM

Last edit: January 21, 2014, 09:26:17 PM by Altoidnerd #2  I think the device should be able to be constructed with parts one can purchase at radio-shack.



 It should be constructed without integrated circuits in favor of FETs or BJTs one can feel free to exchange for various brands; however the design could be simplified with an IC should the user chose to trust a company (TI, nat semi...) and wishes to create his/her own.



 I think the so inclined user should be able to take it apart and put it back together with a soldering iron; e.g. having as few parts as possible, and provide schematics and documentation.



 I think the user should be able to exchange the "sample cell." For what I am thinking, this would mean replacing the crystalline sample with a home-made one, if one has the chemistry skills to do so.



 Gaseous samples would not be permitted for an NQR device, but could be used with optical spectroscopy. But I do not think optical circuits are simple enough to be "provably untainted." An optical physicist may disagree.





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LegendaryActivity: 951Merit: 1019Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures. Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 22, 2014, 08:36:51 AM #3 In order for a device like this to be useful in ways that a bag of dice is not, it has to be able to directly communicate the generated random bits to its consumer somehow. I'm having a hard time figuring how to do that with "parts from Radio Shack". If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the prevalence of users convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and of the con-artists who have followed them here to devour them.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 22, 2014, 10:28:18 AM #5

Op amps offer more flexibility, but purists can even make their own. I have never bothered to wire up my own op amp, but I have, as many have tried, to model one in spice.





It can be done.



There are a few other parts to the entire device I have not yet shown; but I think I've demonstrated you can do this at radio-shack.

Op amps offer more flexibility, but purists can even make their own. I have never bothered to wire up my own op amp, but I have, as many have tried, to model one in spice.It can be done.There are a few other parts to the entire device I have not yet shown; but I think I've demonstrated you can do this at radio-shack.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 24, 2014, 12:57:07 AM

Last edit: January 24, 2014, 02:57:13 AM by Altoidnerd #8 Assuming I can get 1 random bit every characteristic relaxation time of Sodium Chlorate (T 2 )...I could grab 256 random bits in 2.56 seconds with ease, since T 2 << 10 ms



I could conceivably measure two random bits at least with each T 2 since I can grab a metric also of the apparent field angle.



This is because the quadrupole lines are split by a static applied field, so earth's field will be split the levels; moreover, this depends on the instantaneous spin angle with the earths field. Since earths field varies with location, and the crystal orientation can be made to have some randomness, I'm confident in 2 bits/T 2 for a single crystal preparation.



In a sample with two inequivalent chlorine sites, this is doubled. Also, if we manage manage to measure 37Cl as well as 35Cl (the abundance of the heavy isotope is 26%) that is an 8x speed up.



There are some samples I know with even shorter T 2 whose quadrupole resonance is at nearly 100 MHz, though I've never seen what the S/N is.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 24, 2014, 02:41:37 AM

Last edit: January 24, 2014, 05:02:44 AM by Altoidnerd #10 Quote from: NanoAkron on January 24, 2014, 02:22:31 AM

What's out there on the market now and how is what you're offering any better/cheaper/different/smaller?





RNG's today operate on thermal fluctuations and alternatively current "shot noise." These methods are in principle sources of quantum entropy. However, they work on integrated circuits so nobody knows whats really going on inside of it. One can perhaps test the legitimacy of the outputs, but I do not like the idea of ICs used in open source technology since they can always be backdoored - one must trust the IC manufacturer to use the IC.



This is different in that anyone with an electronics hobby can scrutinize it; these electronics presented are completely analog. One can also feel free to exchange the (sodium chlorate?) sample with their own if they believe I have doctored mine. It's simple physics, rather than black-box electronics.



Quote from: NanoAkron on January 24, 2014, 02:22:31 AM

Who is your target audience for this product?







Anyone who is worried about keys generated by deterministic algorithms. They are not guaranteed to be random, and if an attack is found, the bitcoins are gone (



Or even hardware developers who want to offer a bitcoin product, but are afraid they will create something that doesn't offer enough entropy, making their customers lose all their bitcoins, and bringing a lot of heat upon themselves.



I would make my design open source so they can modify it as they please, asking only that their version's build characteristics can also be documented properly.





Quote from: NanoAkron on January 24, 2014, 02:22:31 AM

How much would it cost to build the first one...





I have done much of the research already. The exact details like this would come after I have community input on what features are actually desired. How small do I need to make it to be desirable? How do you guys think it should output the random bits? Desired speeds?



Once I have answers to these questions, I can make concrete statements about dev cost and a timeline.



In short, I can make this work on my lab equipment already. That isn't satisfactory of course; I'm using a $100,000 signal generator, and a few $30,000 oscilloscopes.



But if I specialize the device to work for only a certain chemical, and function only in such a way as to be used in conjunction with bitcoin...it doesn't need to be made from expensive lab equipment. So once we decide the properties, I can choose an operating frequency, and really make a nice parts list.



For a rough estimate, for the type of device I have in mind...to buy the raw electronics for a one-time build...the parts would cost under $20. In the course of devlopment one should expect many failed attempts so the dev cost is much higher than the unit cost.



I already have most of the test equipment I would like or need to finish the job. RNG's today operate on thermal fluctuations and alternatively current "shot noise." These methods are in principle sources of quantum entropy. However, they work on integrated circuits so nobody knows whats really going on inside of it. One can perhaps test the legitimacy of the outputs, but I do not like the idea of ICs used in open source technology since they can always be backdoored - one must trust the IC manufacturer to use the IC.This is different in that anyone with an electronics hobby can scrutinize it; these electronics presented are completely analog. One can also feel free to exchange the (sodium chlorate?) sample with their own if they believe I have doctored mine. It's simple physics, rather than black-box electronics.Anyone who is worried about keys generated by deterministic algorithms. They are not guaranteed to be random, and if an attack is found, the bitcoins are gone ( https://www.google.com/search?q=android+vulnerability+stolen+bitcoins&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS565US565&oq=android+vulnerability+stolen+bitcoins&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5858j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8 ). Perhaps it would be intended for large holders of coins or by servers who tend to generate a lot of keys...or advanced users.Or even hardware developers who want to offer a bitcoin product, but are afraid they will create something that doesn't offer enough entropy, making their customers lose all their bitcoins, and bringing a lot of heat upon themselves.I would make my design open source so they can modify it as they please, asking only that their version's build characteristics can also be documented properly.I have done much of the research already. The exact details like this would come after I have community input on what features are actually desired. How small do I need to make it to be desirable? How do you guys think it should output the random bits? Desired speeds?Once I have answers to these questions, I can make concrete statements about dev cost and a timeline.In short, I can make this work on my lab equipment already. That isn't satisfactory of course; I'm using a $100,000 signal generator, and a few $30,000 oscilloscopes.But if I specialize the device to work for only a certain chemical, and function only in such a way as to be used in conjunction with bitcoin...it doesn't need to be made from expensive lab equipment. So once we decide the properties, I can choose an operating frequency, and really make a nice parts list.For a rough estimate, for the type of device I have in mind...to buy the raw electronics for a one-time build...the parts would cost under $20. In the course of devlopment one should expect many failed attempts so the dev cost is much higher than the unit cost.I already have most of the test equipment I would like or need to finish the job.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 24, 2014, 05:48:45 AM #12 Thanks! Yes a lot of the mathematics will be very similar if I post a whitepaper. This will be a good resource. Some comments:



 This is optical - which as I noted above, is a bit above the scope of hobbyists

 They didn't really show me how to do it; moreover, their detectors are expensive

 Not at all to discredit their work - just to point out the need for a cheaper, more accessible solution



I like Microsoft research a lot. It's spot on, it looks. I can take hints from this for I/O.



This is a very nice a rigorous proof of some of the quantum phenomena I implicitly implied will work in my case, here with magnetization in crystals (but its physics...its always the same thing in a different can).

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Sr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 250http://altoidnerd.com Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 24, 2014, 06:21:51 AM

Last edit: January 24, 2014, 07:05:43 AM by Altoidnerd #14 I gave a rough estimate of 256 bits in a few seconds above. I cannot give a precise speed comparison, except to surmise that optical phenomena are at least an order of magnitude faster than nuclear resonance as a general rule



I should say though that I did propose a method using resonance multiple species to speed up acquisition. So its not that goals cannot be met using nuclear resonance, but I have displayed clear data for the 1x speedup - the up to 8x speedup would need to be investigated further to determine feasibility.



This in fact the speed of optical phenomena is why they seem to use computer algorithms for selection of relevant bits, because their data is coming at them a lot faster than mine would be. I instead would be using a small RLC circuit with a transistor amplifier and level detector. There would be really no software or digital circuitry involved at all. So the implementations are fundamentally different, but the mathematics (of QM) is really the same.



I envision something inherently simple to build and use. My device would be completely accessible to make at home, just by looking up the schematics and having skill in analog design, which would be a major difference that sums up the above points.



This may also have a side effect of furthering research in zero field NMR, since MRI machines in hospitals are using only high field 1H NMR. Zero field is sort of a black art in magnetic resonance, which I think could be used cleverly in the medical industry. Much of the reason an MRI costs so much is the utilization of a superconducting magnet, wheres as the spectroscopic method I am employing here is used without external fields - no magnet necessary. This technique has been largely ignored in the NMR and MRI communities, which aggravates me to no end, but we shant go there...but it is receiving attention again in the industry of explosives/landmine detection.



"Zero field NMR" is synonymous with "NQR" though this wording is misleading.

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NewbieActivity: 23Merit: 0 Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 24, 2014, 02:07:30 PM

Last edit: January 24, 2014, 08:19:36 PM by EmerCoin.org #15 Altoidnerd, thanks!



I wonder how we could explain to consumers that generating keys with end-user product will safeguard them from attacks. For this we need to explain to them how the usage of this analog RNG device will fix the general problem of ECC caused by many instance of repeated public keys which correspond to different owners.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 252Merit: 250 Re: [survey] What are the ideal properties of a quantum RNG? January 24, 2014, 08:06:25 PM #16 I'm guessing you're at a university or other institution if you have access to a few US$100,000s of lab equipment. I would strongly advise you to look for local business plan competitions, or speak with someone at the business school about building a team to take this forwards.



I suspect if you're right, you have the potential to affect a large number of fields beyond bitcoin.