Author Topic: Shadows in Flight

kacard

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posted 10:20 PM The release date is for the regular print book. The MMB date has not been announced. Posts: 776 | Registered: Jul 1999 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 08:58 AM Sorry for double posting here, and on the thread I created to discuss the topic. However, I believe OSC might be more likely to read this thread (seeing as how he started it), so I'd like to repost one point here. If the admins think this is out of line, feel free to delete the post and again, I apologize.





quote: If there's still a "problem" that hasn't been answered above, I don't know what it is... The Jane problem is quite a biggie, actually, and nobody has given any hint of a solution.



The Jane continuity problem goes thus:



We know that:



1.) Jane's memory is made up of all computers connected to the ansible in the world, so she knows everything on every computer ever simultaneously.



2.) Bean's ship has an ansible connection, so it stands to reason that Jane has access to that ship's data and can communicate with it.



From these two facts we can infer that:



3.) Jane knows about Bean's kids and their condition.



If The Beanie Babies aren't dead by the time of Xenocide, why doesn't Jane call them back as soon as she has the cure? Why doesn't Jane bring them instantly to Lusitania?



You can't say that she was waiting to do it later. Her life was at risk (late Xenocide, early CotM) - why would she risk not giving the cure to The Beanie Babies?



So do the Beanies already have a cure by the time they meet the rest of the gang? If they do, why wouldn't Jane recruit them in early Xenocide to help with the gang, seeing as how they're clearly the most brilliant geneticists in the universe (having already solved such a complex problem as their disease on their own)?



Even with all the arguments provided about why Ender wouldn't have already brought up Bean, gang and mentions of the Shadow series (some of which I agree with, most of which I don't) those don't address why Jane wouldn't bring them up - specially in such dire circumstances.



Again, think, if he had written the books in chronological order, wouldn't people be furious at the things he left out of Speaker, Xenocide and CotM as followups to SotG, Exile, Investment Counselor and SiF?



Solutions to the Jane problem without rewriting the story are welcome. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

Orincoro

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Member # 8854



posted 09:22 AM Perhaps you should just read the book when it comes out.



Honestly, these are not dire plot issues you are bringing up. They sound more like a fanfic writer wanting the whole universe of a story, every character and every event, to be perfectly linked to every other in a perfect web. That rarely happens, and would feel shallow if t did. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005 | IP: Logged |

Scott R

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Member # 567



posted 09:35 AM quote: If The Beanie Babies aren't dead by the time of Xenocide, why doesn't Jane call them back as soon as she has the cure? Why doesn't Jane bring them instantly to Lusitania? I can't remember how FTL was furthered in CotM; but in Xenocide, it's made quite clear that the only way Jane can transport people is if she has a connection to someone on the ship through a philotic connection-- Ender and Miro for the first trip, and Peter II and Young Val (I think) for others.



It's also noted in Xenocide that there are things that Jane is aware of-- such as when her processes pick up that Qing-Jao is looking for her, based on the girl's computer queries-- and things she is not aware of.



For example, a family of genetic anomolies that no one has done research on in a couple of millenia. The Delphikis may have just slipped under her radar, and there's an answer in continuity for that. Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 03:51 PM Preposterous. Jane's attention is almost everywhere at once, the whole point of her character is that she's almost godlike in how many things she can pay attention to at once (which is the whole reason why she can push things Outside).



Why wouldn't she devote one billionth of her attention to constantly watch over three of the most brilliant people in the universe? It would stand to reason that, given her supernatural ability, she would keep track of everyone who ever had a connection to Ender (or who was particularly outstanding in some way). Why on Earth would she just "not pay attention" to possibly the only people related to him in any way still alive? That they would "slip under her radar" doesn't sound like a solid excuse when you consider how the character's been setup.



Whoopsies, a mind so brilliant it's beyond comprehension stops following the most brilliant human beings in the universe because she was too busy watching Animaniacs reruns. Please. Yes, there are things she's unaware of, but I hardly doubt that the only other people alive from Ender's time, with a direct connection to Ender, and with a genetic condition that puts them at the forefront of humanity would be one of them.



As for FLTL travel needing someone on the ship to have a philotic connection, I don't see the problem at all. How did they pick up Wang Mu? They sent out Young Peter and picked her up. How did they interact with the ship that was coming to Lusitania? They sent Young Peter. Young Peter, YV or Ender needing to be on ship is just the kind of fuel it needs. Is it so inconceivable to send Ender to meet the Beanie Babies in order to pick them up and SAVE THEIR LIVES!?!? Oh, Ender doesn't want to go outside after the first time? Send Young Peter or Young Val. Done.



I think the reason for so much rejection to my objections is that, as has been stated before, most people just couldn't give a flying banana about continuity when the repercussions are so large. They love what they have and they don't want it altered or explained away in any way. However, nobody is able to rationally counter argue that these ARE issues, and NOT minor ones. You could write an Encyclopedia with minor issues in the Enderverse, and ironically, I couldn't give a flying banana about THOSE (Ferreira, time continuity errors, who read the Hegemon when, etc.)



quote: Honestly, these are not dire plot issues you are bringing up. Please, Orincoro, if you have the time and disposition, explain to me why:



1.) Jane not noticing the Beanie Babies is not a dire plot problem. (If the answer is a reason why she hasn't noticed them, that's a solution to the problem, not a reason why it's not a problem to begin with).



2.) Jane would cruelly and inhumanly let the Beanie Babies die (or risk their death when her death comes) by not giving them the cure.



3.) Jane would not recruit the minds of the Beanie Babies to begin with (if they've found a cure on their own or not). Remember that they recruit Wang Mu early in CotM precisely because she was born with the genius gift of Path without the twitchy, twitchy OCD. Aren't these characters that use all the resources available to them?



If Jane hasn't noticed them through some crazy virus (*cough deus ex machina cough*) it should be noted in one of the upcoming books, because her not noticing them is something that stands out and is completely out of character. The only other option in my head is that The Beanie Babies are stupid and badly uninformed by the standard of the time of Xenocide and that they don't recruit them because they'd be of no value. If that is the case, future books in which the two meet would prove to be dull indeed. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 03:59 PM Also, as to Orincoro's other point of perhaps me just reading the book when it comes out:



I have read the books. The continuity problem I speak of is square between Xenocide and CotM (read points 1 and 2). So the books you're telling me to wait to read (Shadows Alive and Shadows in Flight), in my opinion, should somehow address this. I don't know if OSC is already aware of what, to me, is a big deal, so I'm hoping he'll get a chance to see this.



If we got one message from Card saying something like: don't worry kid, I got this.



I would go back to just reading the forums and not posting like I've done for years. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 04:19 PM I hate double posting like this, but I always post and the realize I've forgotten something. I know, I must be the most annoying person on Hatrack right now, but I swear this isn't trolling.



Anyway, the thing I forgot is this:



The investment software that keeps the "perpetual funds" for the research into Bean's condition active is...Jane herself. She's the tool used in order to keep the funding on his condition eternal. Now, please, tell me that she wouldn't be even a little curious about what that money was going towards and that she would just "not notice" Bean and his trip through space. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

Scott R

Member

Member # 567



posted 07:34 PM Have you read the first and second chapters of Shadows in Flight? They're up on IGMS. In them it is revealed



SPOILERS

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That no one is doing research on Bean's condition any more except for Bean and his children. And no one is really communicating with them.

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So...no. There are reasons why Jane may not notice them.



quote: the whole point of her character is that she's almost godlike in how many things she can pay attention to at once (which is the whole reason why she can push things Outside). Actually, Jane makes a point of saying how difficult it was to push things outside. She's not limitless-- and she only knows something if she starts paying attention to it.



For all her access to the world's greatest minds, she's not nearly as creative as say, Ela, or Miro, or Olhado, or Grego. There are definite limits.



Also, remember-- at the same time that FTL was tested successfully, the solution to the descolada was discovered. What do you imagine that bringing Bean and his kids to the Lusitania would have accomplished? Suppose the descolada got ahold of their altered genetic code and found a way to coopt human biology the way it coopted the biology of the pequeninos and capim?



At any rate-- I'll be interested to see how OSC resolves all this. Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 08:19 PM quote: Actually, Jane makes a point of saying how difficult it was to push things outside. She's not limitless-- and she only knows something if she starts paying attention to it. I've repeatedly pointed out why it's almost inconceivable that she wouldn't pay attention to them. Also, pushing things Outside requires holding in your mind trillions and trillions of variables (The Hive Queens, that use entire civilizations as extensions of their bodies can't do it) - and that's the first time in the entire series where her abilities are even taxed. Following each and every person who was ever related to Ender, and even each of their descendants, should be a breeze by comparison. That's putting aside that she was the very software used to keep the funds alive, that they stand out from everyone else Ender ever came in contact with (by still being alive) and being special because of the genetic condition alone. There are many, many factors that alone warrant Jane's attention - combined it seems to me impossible that she would ignore them.



quote: That no one is doing research on Bean's condition any more except for Bean and his children. And no one is really communicating with them.



So...no. There are reasons why Jane may not notice them. I have read those chapters. I don't think this addresses any of the points I've raised.



As to the whole "what if the Descolada mutated and that would be dangerous and that's why they're not introduced", I find that a fascinating answer. Thank you, that's the kind of thing I'm looking to discuss.



If that's the case, why not just bring the cure to them and not bring them to Lusitania? (Bringing the cure to them could be a cool solution, and explain somewhat their absence from Xenocide and CotM - interesting solution). Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

Orincoro

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Member # 8854



posted 09:43 PM quote: Originally posted by salcedocine:

Preposterous. Jane's attention is almost everywhere at once, the whole point of her character is that she's almost godlike in how many things she can pay attention to at once (which is the whole reason why she can push things Outside).



Why wouldn't she devote one billionth of her attention to constantly watch over three of the most brilliant people in the universe? It would stand to reason that, given her supernatural ability, she would keep track of everyone who ever had a connection to Ender (or who was particularly outstanding in some way). Why on Earth would she just "not pay attention" to possibly the only people related to him in any way still alive? That they would "slip under her radar" doesn't sound like a solid excuse when you consider how the character's been setup.



Whoopsies, a mind so brilliant it's beyond comprehension stops following the most brilliant human beings in the universe because she was too busy watching Animaniacs reruns. Please. Yes, there are things she's unaware of, but I hardly doubt that the only other people alive from Ender's time, with a direct connection to Ender, and with a genetic condition that puts them at the forefront of humanity would be one of them.



As for FLTL travel needing someone on the ship to have a philotic connection, I don't see the problem at all. How did they pick up Wang Mu? They sent out Young Peter and picked her up. How did they interact with the ship that was coming to Lusitania? They sent Young Peter. Young Peter, YV or Ender needing to be on ship is just the kind of fuel it needs. Is it so inconceivable to send Ender to meet the Beanie Babies in order to pick them up and SAVE THEIR LIVES!?!? Oh, Ender doesn't want to go outside after the first time? Send Young Peter or Young Val. Done.



I think the reason for so much rejection to my objections is that, as has been stated before, most people just couldn't give a flying banana about continuity when the repercussions are so large. They love what they have and they don't want it altered or explained away in any way. However, nobody is able to rationally counter argue that these ARE issues, and NOT minor ones. You could write an Encyclopedia with minor issues in the Enderverse, and ironically, I couldn't give a flying banana about THOSE (Ferreira, time continuity errors, who read the Hegemon when, etc.)



quote: Honestly, these are not dire plot issues you are bringing up. Please, Orincoro, if you have the time and disposition, explain to me why:



1.) Jane not noticing the Beanie Babies is not a dire plot problem. (If the answer is a reason why she hasn't noticed them, that's a solution to the problem, not a reason why it's not a problem to begin with).



2.) Jane would cruelly and inhumanly let the Beanie Babies die (or risk their death when her death comes) by not giving them the cure.



3.) Jane would not recruit the minds of the Beanie Babies to begin with (if they've found a cure on their own or not). Remember that they recruit Wang Mu early in CotM precisely because she was born with the genius gift of Path without the twitchy, twitchy OCD. Aren't these characters that use all the resources available to them?



If Jane hasn't noticed them through some crazy virus (*cough deus ex machina cough*) it should be noted in one of the upcoming books, because her not noticing them is something that stands out and is completely out of character. The only other option in my head is that The Beanie Babies are stupid and badly uninformed by the standard of the time of Xenocide and that they don't recruit them because they'd be of no value. If that is the case, future books in which the two meet would prove to be dull indeed. I have a plausible answer for you: Bean's children *choose* to do something other than be involved in the events of the other novels.



Wow. That was easy.



alternative: they *are* involved in the events of the other novels, in ways not yet explained in the other novels.



Wow. Also very easy. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 11:50 PM quote: I have a plausible answer for you: Bean's children *choose* to do something other than be involved in the events of the other novels.



Wow. That was easy.



alternative: they *are* involved in the events of the other novels, in ways not yet explained in the other novels.



Wow. Also very easy. Both your answers own up to the fact that this is a problem, and offer a solution to that problem - neither explain why this isn't a problem to begin with.



As to the answers themselves:



1.) They would choose not to get the cure for the disease that's killing them? That doesn't sound very plausible to me. Although, them receiving the cure, then being asked for help and them going "nah, we got better things to do", I guess sounds like something that could happen.



2.) If they are involved in the events of the other novels, in ways not yet explained, then I'm perfectly content to leave it at that. I've said ad-nauseum that I'm not bringing up a problem that necessarily demands a re-write (thought that is an option), but simply something that doesn't fit in with continuity that OSC should watch out for when writing the new novels. If he takes this into account and incorporates them the way you mention, then all's right - but I doubt it'll be "easy". Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

Orincoro

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Member # 8854



posted 01:19 PM No, it's not a problem. If there exists a plausible reason why the events of the novels don't present completely congruent information, then it is not a problem. You're talking a very small world view of the storyline and the literary universe it takes place in. This is a mistake. Just because you have 10 characters, doesn't mean your novel has to account for 10 characters from start to finish.



That kind of logic is what made the Star Wars prequels suck so much. The author, unlike the reader, does not approach the work as consisting of a static palette of people and events as they occur in other previous works. The story is not bounded by what came before. That would be fan fiction, and rather poor fan fiction to boot. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 01:47 PM quote: If there exists a plausible reason why the events of the novels don't present completely congruent information, then it is not a problem. It is, because that plausible reason can only be found in works that haven't been written or published yet. It's like if in act 1 I showed a character sweeping and then in act 2 I show him covered in blood but don't explain it. It stands out as a continuity error, unless in act 3 I show some flashback or dialogue that explains it.



I would agree that:



quote:

You're talking a very small world view of the storyline and the literary universe it takes place in. This is a mistake. Just because you have 10 characters, doesn't mean your novel has to account for 10 characters from start to finish. However, Card has explicitly stated that new books cross the Shadow series with the Speaker series. That DOES present continuity challenges, because of the nature of those two stories. Again, please, if you'd read the stories chronologically (starting from Polish Boy and ending with CotM), would the jump from Exile to Speaker really not jar you even a little? OSC builds story lines and connections between characters (they're right there in the books!) and then drops them. Why do those relationships go dead from one book to the next? Because he thought of some 30 years before, the others 30 years after - but that's not a reason pertinent to the story.



Accounting for the Beanies in this case isn't wanton, it's not superfluous. It's not following every little detail. It's being congruent to Jane's very nature. If, after all the arguments I've given (of which you've countered exactly none) you still think that it's a deus ex machina to bring in the Babies in CotM and not the other way around (that NOT bringing them is a deus ex machina) then I guess we don't have a lot to discuss.



As long as OSC has to write something in the new series that accounts for this, then this is a problem that he solved - not a non-issue.



Agree to disagree. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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posted 01:50 PM My bad, I believe to start at the very beginning chronologically you'd have to start with Mazer in Prison. There could still be another short story further back, anyone know (without counting the graphic novels)? Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

Orincoro

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Member # 8854



posted 04:22 PM quote: Originally posted by salcedocine:

quote: If there exists a plausible reason why the events of the novels don't present completely congruent information, then it is not a problem. It is, because that plausible reason can only be found in works that haven't been written or published yet. It's like if in act 1 I showed a character sweeping and then in act 2 I show him covered in blood but don't explain it. It stands out as a continuity error, unless in act 3 I show some flashback or dialogue that explains it.



and why must the reason for anything be stated directly in order to satisfy? If there are plausible reasons, you can assume whatever you like- the story is not responsible for accounting for all its characters, or all of their actions, at all times.



Do you get mad when an action movie doesn't explain why nobody ever needs to go to the bathroom? Or do you just assume that they do, and don't talk about it? A novel makes choices about what nfrmation is important, and what isn't. If there exist plausible spaces inbeetween actions and events that's e don't see, then they are not inconsistent. The information you are presented is not *complete*, but it is internally consistent. Otherwise we're just arguing style, which is a totally different discussion from technical correctness and consistency.



Sorry,bayou just have nothing to complain about here. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 02:57 PM Jesus Christ Bananas.



Yes, up to the point where the stories are NOW you don't need that information. They don't have to reveal everything. It's honky-dory.



However, in Shadows Alive, where the Lusitanians meet the Beanie Babies, it'd be ridiculous to not show their first meeting. If Jane has already spoken to them, and it hasn't been shown, then it'd be a big plot point revolving around why she hasn't brought them up. If they speak to the Beanies and Jane hasn't ever heard of them before, then that's a plot hole for the many, many reasons I've brought up.



If, in Shadows Alive, they show a conversation between Jane and the Beanies that takes place (timewise) between Xenocide and CotM, then the problem is solved.



This continuity problem doesn't arise until they begin to interact with each other precisely because before that you can imagine anything you want happening in that time-space between. However, as soon as we read one conversation between the Beanies and Jane in Shadows Alive, that will show us whether they've ever spoken before or not. See the difference? Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

Orincoro

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Member # 8854



posted 07:29 PM No. Honestly, I don't. Jane can have either talked to them or not, mentioned them or not, known about them of not, I will not be perturbed if it turns out she is a part of their narrative, and we, the readers, werent privy to that before. It's a novel, not just a story. There's a difference. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005 | IP: Logged |

cdraney

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Member # 12711



posted 11:42 PM I don't want to hijack this thread, but since you are already chatting about Shadows in Flight I wanted to ask if anyone else received a weird email from Amazon regarding the Kindle version. The release date is now listed as February 2013. Anyone have info about that?



Feel free to direct me to the proper thread. I'm new to Hatrack.



Thanks. Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2011 | IP: Logged |

DustinDopps

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Member # 12640



posted 12:31 PM I'm all confused about release dates now too. I just got a Kindle Fire and don't want to miss the MMB, but there seems to be no consensus on its arrival date (versus the arrival date of the book).



Can anyone give us firm information? Posts: 287 | Registered: Sep 2011 | IP: Logged |

Judgment

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Member # 12655



posted 02:21 PM Hello from Amazon.com,



We're writing because an unexpected delay has occurred in delivering the Kindle version of the book listed below:



'Shadows in Flight (The Shadow)'

Card, Orson Scott



Link to the Kindle Title: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005J4EX78



The old delivery date was: 1/17/2012

The new delivery date is: 2/1/2013



We'll keep your pre-order open on your account and deliver the title to your Kindle as soon as the publisher releases the digital version. Posts: 7 | Registered: Oct 2011 | IP: Logged |

cdraney

Member

Member # 12711



posted 02:44 PM The Amazon page for the Kindle version now reads:





Item Under Review



This title is currently unavailable because customers have told us that there may be something wrong with the description, the content, or the way that the content is displayed.



We're working with the publisher to fix the problem as quickly as possible. As always, we value customer feedback. Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2011 | IP: Logged |

DustinDopps

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Member # 12640



posted 04:12 PM Often times mean-spirited people flag OSC's books for review because they disagree with his political/religious beliefs. I bet that's what happened to cause the "Item Under Review" message. If true, it will go away shortly.



The whole thing is ludicrous. Hatred and intolerance in the name of inclusion and tolerance makes no sense at all. Posts: 287 | Registered: Sep 2011 | IP: Logged |

rivka

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Member # 4859



posted 06:29 PM quote: Originally posted by DustinDopps:

I bet that's what happened to cause the "Item Under Review" message. Actually, it seems more likely there is some question about the accuracy of the pub date and it's now being looked into. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003 | IP: Logged |

BlueWizard

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Member # 9389



posted 02:51 PM quote: Originally posted by salcedocine:

...

This continuity problem doesn't arise until they begin to interact with each other precisely because before that you can imagine anything you want happening in that time-space between.



However, as soon as we read one conversation between the Beanies and Jane in Shadows Alive, that will show us whether they've ever spoken before or not. See the difference? Perhaps I've not been following along closely enough, but "Shadows in Flight" occurs before "Shadows Alive". "Shadows in Flight" is the account of Bean and his kids in their endless journey across the universe, and if Jane is somehow helping them, then this book is likely where we will see that.



Keep in mind, Jane is not all or nothing. At her highest levels she communicates with Ender as if a real person. However, that is merely one level of process. She has countless sub-processes going on to the degree that she is in essence monitoring all the communication on the 100 Worlds.



She may be interacting with Bean as one of these subtle sub-processes. She may simply be skewing the data he receives when he is looking for a nearby planet to update his libraries and take on food and equipment upgrades. She may be communicating with my by text.



How he perceives this communications in unknown. He may simply see it as an advanced feature of the ship's computer interface.



My point is, we tend to take an all or nothing view, but there are many subtle levels in between. Again, it may be as subtle as Jane skewing the data Bean receives from searches and various computer analysis. Rather that acting as a living entity in Bean life, Jane may be acting as a very minor sub-process.



The question has been raised as to why Ender never mentions Bean, especially in the search for the cure for the Driscolata virus. I think it was simply because it wasn't relevant. Bean genetic modification is based on 3,000 year old technology. It has been incorporated into the standard science of the future, and is not specifically relevant to the problem at hand.



I'm sure on occasion thoughts of Bean and the others do pass through Ender's mind, but in his mind they are ghosts from the past, they are people who have been dead for countless centuries. These are not thoughts to dwell on or talk about.



In my mind, in the space between books, I do imagine Jane in some way helping Bean, just not at the level she interacts with Ender.



Still, it will be interesting to see how the two stories get woven together. Getting these stories to intersect in no small point, and I have to assume O.S.Card has given it some thought to make it believable. In fact, the very existance of "Shadows Alive" hinges on this one plot point. I just don't see Card treating it as a trivial matter.



Steve/bluewizard Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged |

cdraney

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posted 12:10 AM Anyone have news about the strange new release date for the Kindle version of this book? Amazon's site now says February 2013!! A year away? Really? Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2011 | IP: Logged |

n

New Member

Member # 12718



posted 05:39 PM What salcedocine seems to be forgetting is that Jane's thoughts are Philotic-fast. And since Bean and his children are moving faster than light, the communication is almost impossible (subjective Jane-years between every keystroke or phoneme uttered by anyone on the ship). That's not very conducive to a proper communication.



Perhaps, the easiest solution to the problem would be placing the "Shadows in Flight" (I haven't read the on-line chapters [being a poor student ], but as far as I can tell, Bean does go back to the slower-than-light speeds) at the time (or, perhaps , just after the time) of the final resolution in CotM. The end of the wedding ceremonies? The end of the honeymoons?



This way Jane could justify her lack of attention to/trace of late-Ender's philotic connection with Bean, establish a contact with Bean and his children and let the novel start from there.



I am sorry for reviving this half-dead-by-now topic with my first post here and with my less than correct English. I've read all Shadow and Ender series books in my native language, and I'm still learning English. Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2011 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 12:30 AM What's your native language N?



And I don't think communication would be impossible because we've seen Jane often communicate with people going at FTL speeds, most notably, Miro during his year (subjective), thirty year (realtime) long trip to meet Valentine at the opening of Xenocide.



quote: No. Honestly, I don't. Jane can have either talked to them or not, mentioned them or not, known about them of not, I will not be perturbed if it turns out she is a part of their narrative, and we, the readers, werent privy to that before. It's a novel, not just a story. There's a difference. I don't believe it's OK for Jane to have not at least been aware of them before, for the many reasons I've been stating. Maybe she could have a reason for not talking to them, but it's cruel not to tell them of the cure to their disease and Jane isn't a cruel entity. If Jane and her relationship with the Beanies turns out to be part of the narrative that we weren't privy to before - yay! That's what I've been saying SHOULD happen, among a few other options.



The only not-okay scenario for me would be if Jane didn't know of the Beanies, didn't care if they lived or died, and it wasn't justified in any way (to cover it from being a plot hole for, again, the many reasons stated above).



Any problem can have a great literary solution. Even a simple, quick, literary solution. However, first you have to accept that you have a potential problem so you can stay one step ahead of the curb. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

salcedocine

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Member # 12613



posted 12:50 AM Just in case there's any confusion, here's what I mean by "justified":



Not justified:



Jane not knowing of Beanies, period. No explanation, just taking that as the natural way things should be.



Justified (badly):



Jane doesn't know of the Beanies because a weird cable malfunction made that particular part of her consciousness go wanky wonky.



Jutified (a little better):



The Beanies don't have a working ansible (orcs blew it up), so while Jane knows OF them, she can't communicate with them (and call them back when the cure is found).



Justified (best):



Whatever Mr. Card comes up with if he realizes this is a potential problem. Posts: 40 | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged |

kayak77

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Member # 12722



posted 01:02 AM Any update on the delay of the Kindle version of this book? I just tried to pre-order only to find out it doesn't come out until 2/1/2013. That's a bummer and I hope it isn't some issue with selling more hardcovers/paperbacks first. I just received my Kindle and was looking forward to building up my digital collection. Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2011 | IP: Logged |

Kelly1101

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Member # 12562



posted 07:50 AM Salcedocine:



I don't think that OSC is going to rewrite the entire series just because you have a little problem. No one else seems that bothered. Hope That Helps!!! Posts: 115 | Registered: May 2011 | IP: Logged |

KirKis

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Member # 12454



posted 11:16 AM After catching up with the thread, one thing kept popping into my mind as I read Salcedocine's posts. Jane refers to her consiousness as consisting of her top, 10?, levels. Any levels below that she isn't actually "thinking" about it. She can read e-mails automatically and store the information, but not actually "look" at it.



She might be noticing the messages that Bean has sent but it doesn't go up to her top levels so she doesn't really put any "thought" to it.



Surely she knows he is out there through the ansible connection. Though since he, currently, has nothing to do with Ender he just isn't taking any of her consiousness levels.



You would have thought in Si Wang Mu's case that Jane would have already known everything about their condition through an official document sent by SC giving permission for this experiement to be done. Someone HAD to send an e-mail or letter regarding it. Or at least getting authorization from a higher-up. Jane would have known about it. Known exactly what was changed too. But she didn't. She still had to get the DNA to check.



Why would she need to crack security codes if she already knew the information behind it as it was entered?



She isn't a god. She isn't supposed to know "everything". Perhaps its on such a low level... like how cells form in your body... you don't actually feel it happening. Or your muscles move as you type a response. She lives in the ansible connections... so its like her hands and feet. You can notice what you touch since its in your top levels of consiousness.



Hope that helps. Makes sense to me. Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011 | IP: Logged |

la.SOMA

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Member # 10608



posted 11:27 AM I dont think he's implying that OSC should rewrite the entire series - he's addressing a concern toward a series he cares a lot about. And I highly doubt that pointing out that no one else is bothered helps at all.



Salcedocine bring up a decent point in the fact that Bean is reachable via Ansible and Jane. Bean is at the heart of why Jane was able to reveal herself to Ender.. and wasnt Jane also programmed to handle Bean's pension/investments once Petra dies?



I dont think that the issues are series-breaking or throws out the value of the previous books.. but I believe addressing this in Shadows Alive would be a great jumping point



I mentioned in another thread how deception is a common theme in the enderverse.. so since i've read EinE, I've imagined Bean was never mentioned to Lusitania for a greater purpose - such as Jane/Ender protecting them from Starways Congress.



I think it might even be really cool to see some sort of correspondence between Bean and Ender as an opener to Shadows Alive - It could even be something to the effect of "Ho Bean, I've arrived on Lusitania - there's super smart Xenobiologists here but we're going to cut off the ansible you should come here - etc etc" and then Bean would set a new course for the ship he's on and begin his journey to Lusitania.. during this time the events of the speaker series would happen and when he arrives we'd be at a time after CotM. Posts: 52 | Registered: Jun 2007 | IP: Logged |

Geraine

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Member # 9913



posted 11:46 AM quote: Originally posted by salcedocine:

Just in case there's any confusion, here's what I mean by "justified":



Not justified:



Jane not knowing of Beanies, period. No explanation, just taking that as the natural way things should be.



Justified (badly):



Jane doesn't know of the Beanies because a weird cable malfunction made that particular part of her consciousness go wanky wonky.



Jutified (a little better):



The Beanies don't have a working ansible (orcs blew it up), so while Jane knows OF them, she can't communicate with them (and call them back when the cure is found).



Justified (best):



Whatever Mr. Card comes up with if he realizes this is a potential problem. Ok, Bean and his kids turned off the Ansible. Insert random subplot about someone on earth wanting to study them to restart research on their condition for nefarious reasons and Bean turning the ansible off to protect his kids. Problem solved. Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006 | IP: Logged |

la.SOMA

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Member # 10608



posted 12:28 PM OSC mentioned that there's two ships in Shadows in Flight. Maybe the 2nd ship doesnt have ansible. Posts: 52 | Registered: Jun 2007 | IP: Logged |

Willster328

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Member # 12731



posted 09:05 PM I was always upset by the fact that it's revealed Bean dies in the first chapter of the book. To be honest, I don't really care about his children. The same way I didn't really care about his unknown son "Achilles" and how Ender turned him.



(Side note: I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever read. Ender loses the fight off the fact that "The real child of Bean would never hurt me", like Achilles genetics have memories.)



That being said, at the end of the Ender series when they discovered the cure for the Piggies, I always just assumed they would use the same method to create a cure for Bean's disease. Really sad OSC couldn't capitalize on that point to save Bean. Posts: 7 | Registered: Jan 2012 | IP: Logged |

KirKis

Member

Member # 12454



posted 01:18 PM Just because Ender died doesn't mean Bean had to die. I can see how Bean follows in Ender's footsteps... Ender dies but lives on with his child Peter and Bean dies but lives on with his Beanie Babies.



Still... who likes it when their hero dies and the story continues on... *sad* Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011 | IP: Logged |

BlueWizard

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Member # 9389



posted 02:14 PM I still don't see a big plot disconnect between Jane and Bean/Beanie Babies. They are a little pre-occupide on Lusitania, what with a virus trying to kill them, Star Congress trying to kill them, and fleet of warship coming to kill them, etc....



Plus, as I point out, the genetic modification that created Bean is 3,000 years old. That is a huge span of time, and I just don't see it as technologically relevant. They are already capable of far more complex genetic modification as can be seen in the people of Path.



I also don't see what is going on on Lusitania as relavant to Bean or his kids. At least, not at the moment.



Now, once the immediate danger is over, and the people of Lusitania are settled again. Then I think it is time for them to expand their thoughts on the applications of what they have learned. Then it may occur to them to think about Bean and his kids.



Val is still around, she lived through the last Bugger War, she helped write a history of Old!Peter and Bean. It could occur to her to have Jame check on the status of the Beanie Babies and set them on a course to Lusitania. Or it could be that the Beanie Babies find out about the events on Lusitania on their own. Perhaps the Ansible going down in the efforts to kill Jane alerted them to Jane and Ender/Val/etc.... At that point they may initiate communication.



But we are stuck with the Time Dilation thing. Perhaps the Beanies heard about the conflict early on, before Val started on here journey to Lusitania. That would put the Beanies 30 years closer to arriving at Lusitania.



Perhaps, they are on their way, but will not arrive in a reasonable time. Jane could track down their location, send someone with whom she has a Philotic connection, then transport them to Lusitania.



These are not impossible complication to overcome. Yes, certainly they are plot points that need overcoming, but overcoming them is not that difficult.



I personally don't see any need during the conflict on Lusitania to contact the Beanies. But now that things have settled down, I can see people's thought turning in that direction.



Further, just as I suspect, in Ender's mind, all these voices from the past are long dead. I futher suspect in the minds of the Beanies, all the many voices from the past are considered equally dead.



Then, events occur which pull those voices and those people from the past into the present. Then is it simply a matter of getting them all together.



I'm sure it will work out fine.



Steve/bluewizard Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged |

millernumber1

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Member # 9894



posted 05:37 AM Woohoo! I preordered - hopefully it gets here soon. Actually, I preordered four copies - one for me, and one for each of the OSC fans in my family. :-) Posts: 423 | Registered: Nov 2006 | IP: Logged |

Kelly1101

Member

Member # 12562



posted 05:52 AM quote: Originally posted by Willster328:

I was always upset by the fact that it's revealed Bean dies in the first chapter of the book. To be honest, I don't really care about his children. The same way I didn't really care about his unknown son "Achilles" and how Ender turned him.



(Side note: I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever read. Ender loses the fight off the fact that "The real child of Bean would never hurt me", like Achilles genetics have memories.)



That being said, at the end of the Ender series when they discovered the cure for the Piggies, I always just assumed they would use the same method to create a cure for Bean's disease. Really sad OSC couldn't capitalize on that point to save Bean. Yeah, I'm pretty bummed about Bean dying.



But, his kids may turn out to be cool. It's not a reason to stop reading, for me. Posts: 115 | Registered: May 2011 | IP: Logged |

Jeffg

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Member # 12742



posted 09:27 AM Hey give a spoiler alert would ya! Not cool Posts: 3 | Registered: Jan 2012 | IP: Logged |

la.SOMA

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Member # 10608



posted 09:42 AM Can't wait to get home - where my copy should be waiting on my doorstep. I'm going to read the first two chapters from IGMS again on my lunchbreak. Posts: 52 | Registered: Jun 2007 | IP: Logged |

n

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Member # 12718



posted 04:56 PM Is it out already ? I will have to wait anyway...



I was about to respond to salcedocine, but KirKis wrote nearly the same what I would have, so I gave up. As for my native language, it is Polish (hooray for thinking in seven grammatical cases - actually makes thinking in other languages so much easier).



Some time ago I was re-reading the Shadow series and found unnerving. There was a sentence in 4th chapter of the SotG (hope I abbreviated it correctly), roughly translated from Polish to English as: each second of Ender's life aboard the ship was a week for Bean.



I am not a mathematician, so please, correct me if I am wrong.



1 second = "a week". Let's assume, roughly, that a week is 6 days, not 7.

6 [days] *24 [hours] * 3600 [seconds in an hour] = 518400. Let me generously cut off that 18400 and round it down to half a million. So 1 subjective second equals to 500000 (let us call them objective for the sake of simplicity) seconds.



Ender flew for over a year. He should be half a million years later, not mere thousands.





Also, when thinking about relativity, physics and such in the Enderverse, I remembered Jane pushing the ship (or should I say 'pod'?) to Outside and back... but with a speed when pulled back. The instance of which I am talking about is the catching of the missile aiming for Lusitania, where Jane gave the pod exactly the same speed as the projectile.



So Jane can speed up or slow down things, big deal. Well, yes. Because it would seem that as she moves objects in or Out, they are translated to some electronic (or organic in the case of Mother Trees [sorry, I have no idea what the proper term is]) data. And the speed is written there as well, so she can modify it. She could, therefore, effortlessly (if we substract the mental and energetical costs of pulling something through the Outside) give things speed of light or even greater (unless physics intervenes somehow - but at which point, if it does?).



Funnily enough, as far as I know (but again, I do make mistakes and misconceptions), Einstein's theory did not prohibit moving faster than light - just crossing the speed barrier. If something does go faster than light (the theoreticised particles - tachyons)... well, it cannot slow down to less than lightspeed.





Sorry for apparent theft of the topic . Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2011 | IP: Logged |

BigDaddy

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Member # 12970



posted 04:42 AM Just thought I'd make a note of it. Shadows in Flight is out. I haven't read it yet. I'm currently reading Earth Unaware.



Heh... All this bickering about plot holes and whatnot with Jane and the Beanie Babies. There is a lot of criticism going on. I haven't read Shadows in Flight yet but I'm sure he fills in whatever holes need to be filled or if not it's nothing that another First Meetings wont cure. Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2013 | IP: Logged |

enderUfan

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Member # 13549



posted 02:29 PM Mr. Card,

Do you have an ETA for the next book to finish off where Shadows in Flight and Children of the MInd ended? I would reallllllly want to know how it all ends, if it ends.



Thanks! Posts: 1 | Registered: Jul 2017 | IP: Logged |