FORMER REP. BARNEY FRANK:

I'm saying size is a factor, but did you ask Mr. Kashkari how big was too big? That's a major factor.

By the way, it cost us more — the S&L crisis cost the taxpayers more than the TARP did in 2008. So, I don't know why he would cite that. In fact, the failure of a very large number of smaller institutions turned out to be much more expensive to the taxpayers. In fact, as far as the bailout of 2008 was concerned, we made money on that in the money that was extended to financial institutions.

And, by the way, it wasn't just to big ones then. It was to small ones as well. The only institutions that weren't able to pay us back were the auto companies. And I don't think — I thought it was a good idea to pay them.

As to size, the question is not just to the size, but what would happen if they couldn't pay their debts. And that's what people ignore. We did two things in the legislation to deal with that. First of all, we made it much, much less likely that they would get so indebted that they couldn't pay them back.

It's not their overall size. It's the indebtedness that's the threat. You could not now have an AIG, which got itself $170 billion beyond what it could pay off in derivatives, because we do not allow institutions under the law now to get so indebted without the capital to back it up.

Secondly and most importantly, what we said is this: If a large institution can't pay its debts, it fails. It is not too big to fail. It is put out of business, by law. No federal official can advance any money to pay its debts under the law until it is dissolved.

What then happens is this: It may be that we would have to borrow from the taxpayers to pay some of the debts, not all, as the previous law required, but if we have to pay some of the debts to prevent the failure of a large institution from having serious economic consequences, the treasury secretary is mandated by law to recover every penny from large — other large financial institutions.

And, again, it's not the size of the institution, but the size of the unpaid indebtedness. Well, we have dealt with that by reducing the indebtedness and requiring that the institution will be dissolved if it fails.