0001

1 _______________________________________________

2

3 IN THE MATTER OF:

4

5

6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY

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8 _______________________________________________

9

10

11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

12

13 VOLUME 1 of 4

14 PAGES 1 - 140

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19 JUNE 23, 1998

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0002

1 FOR PATSY RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,

2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:

3

4

5 THOMAS HANEY

6 TRIP DeMUTH

7 PATRICK BURKE

8 ELLIS ARMISTEAD

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10

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0003

1 TOM HANEY: Today's date is June

2 23, 1998. We are at the Broomfield Police

3 Department, the time is approximately 9:04 a.m.

4 Present are Patricia Ramsey, Pat

5 Burke, attorney-at-law, Ellis Armistead, Trip

6 DeMuth from the Boulder County Sheriff's or

7 District Attorney's Office and my name is Tom

8 Haney, I am with the Denver District Attorney's

9 Office and working for the Boulder Police

10 Department or Sheriff's -- District Attorney's

11 Office.

12 Ms. Ramsey, I want to tell you that

13 this interview is being both audio and video

14 recorded. This is a voluntary statement.

15 You're free to go or free to stop this interview

16 at any time. Do you understand that?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

18 TOM HANEY: Why are you appearing

19 today?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I have been

21 since the beginning of a new page in trying to

22 find out who murdered our daughter.

23 TOM HANEY: And as I said earlier,

24 you are here voluntarily. In fact, it was your

25 idea?

0004

1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.

2 TOM HANEY: And you're willing to

3 discuss with us anything we ask and answer any

4 questions that we have?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: As far as I -- it's

6 productive and we are trying to get to the

7 bottom of this, I will be here for the duration.

8 TOM HANEY: Okay, thank you.

9 That's our intention, we want to move this case

10 forward. It's been some 14 months, I think,

11 since your previous statement. I want you to

12 know that some of the questions that we ask

13 today may be very personal, and we are not

14 trying to antagonize you or upset you, but these

15 are questions that have arisen in the course of

16 the investigation. They are based on facts,

17 rumors, stories, and we feel that we have to ask

18 all of them. Okay?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

20 TOM HANEY: Is there anything

21 preliminarily from anybody? Mr. Burke?

22 MR. BURKE: No.

23 TOM HANEY: Trip?

24 TRIP DeMUTH: No.

25 TOM HANEY: Ms. Ramsey, are you

0005

1 currently under a doctor's care?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I am.

3 TOM HANEY: And who is the doctor?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Dr. Sammy Brown,

5 Samuel Brown in Atlanta, psychiatrist, M.D.

6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And are you

7 taking any medication?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

9 TOM HANEY: And what are you

10 taking?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I take 30 milligrams

12 of Prozac a day, and Ativan, half a milligram as

13 needed.

14 TOM HANEY: When is the last time

15 you took either/or both of these?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: I took 20 milligrams

17 of Prozac this morning and I will take ten this

18 evening. And I took Ativan, half a milligram of

19 Ativan.

20 TOM HANEY: Are you under any other

21 doctor's care?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: I am a patient of

23 the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda,

24 Maryland, I go there twice a year now.

25 TOM HANEY: Are you on any

0006

1 medication?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

3 TOM HANEY: Any other supplements,

4 over-the-counter items, anything like that?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

6 TOM HANEY: Ms. Ramsey, let's just

7 start off by you telling us what you can about

8 the death of JonBenet?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Where would you like

10 to start?

11 TOM HANEY: Just wherever you want

12 to start right now. Like I said, we have tons

13 of questions, but I want to give you this

14 opportunity early on to tell the -- what you

15 know about it.

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all I know is

17 that her father and I put her to bed. The night

18 of Christmas day, 25th. And that was the last

19 time I saw her until the afternoon of the 26th,

20 when John discovered her body in the basement

21 and we had -- I had found the note which said

22 that it was a kidnapping.

23 So that morning we were all

24 operating under the presumption of the facts of

25 a kidnapping. Fact that it was a kidnapping.

0007

1 The police were there and they were setting up

2 telephones and all that. They were trying to

3 obtain the ransom money and all that kind of

4 stuff. And then we found out otherwise.

5 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do

6 now is just kind of walk you through diagrams of

7 the house, and it's going to be a little bit

8 tricky here, but first of all, if you just take

9 a minute and look. This is of the third floor,

10 floor plan. It's -- I don't know if it's

11 approximately to scale. If you just look it

12 over.

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

14 TOM HANEY: Orient yourself there.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Uh-hum.

16 Okay.

17 TOM HANEY: And look at the other

18 diagrams too, before we start, just to make sure

19 that you have oriented yourself and they are

20 fairly accurate representations of the house.

21 MR. BURKE: I assume that when we

22 get a copy of the tape we will get copies of

23 these I guess you call them demonstrative

24 exhibits.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: We are about to -- we

0008

1 can talk about it during a break.

2 TOM HANEY: And that was the second

3 floor.

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

5 TOM HANEY: This is the main level?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding). Right.

7 Uh-hum.

8 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do

9 then is just have you walk us through and maybe

10 first of all, just in your own words again, if

11 you could tell us from the time that you got up

12 on the 26th of December, what you did and what

13 happened on that, after you go through it all

14 once and we will come back again and that's when

15 I would like you to mark on here, we will trace

16 your path, your route, what you did and the last

17 additional questions then, okay?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I awakened

19 that morning, probably somewhere between 5:30

20 and 6. We are going to take off for the airport

21 just at 7, we were going to the lake house. I

22 got up and walked over here to my bathroom right

23 in here.

24 TRIP DeMUTH: I am sorry, I missed

25 what you said, what time you said.

0009

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometime

2 between 5:30 and 6 a.m. And walked around

3 here to the bathroom and I did not take a shower

4 that morning, so I don't know, you know, what

5 exactly I did here. I mean other than just get

6 dressed, brush my teeth, put on my make up. And

7 get ready to go.

8 And then I walked down downstairs

9 here, came to the landing there (showing

10 document) and there was an ironing board here,

11 some clothes, I had a plastic bag kind of right

12 in here somewhere that I had just things to

13 throw, throw in, to take for my trip. And I

14 think I was here for a couple of minutes, just

15 getting some clothes, things.

16 And then I started down the stairs,

17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the

18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the

19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was

20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights

21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started

22 reading the letter.

23 And after the first couple of

24 sentences realized, you know, what was

25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,

0010

1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and

2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these

3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him

4 and he came down. And I said "she's been

5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was

6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't

7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I

8 think I ran downstairs again.

9 I said, you know, "what do we do,

10 what do we do?"

11 He said, "call 911, call the

12 police."

13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I

14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think

15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked

16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the

17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and

18 John came down and on the floor, down here

19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John

20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he

21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his

22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor

23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get

24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it

25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy

0011

1 by that time.

2 Anyway, got the message across, she

3 said she would send somebody out, and oh, God in

4 heaven. Oh, then I phone -- called our friends,

5 Mr. and Mrs. Fleet White and Mr. and

6 Mrs. Johnson, they live in Boulder. I think

7 John went back up to get dressed.

8 And I called them and told them

9 that she's been kidnapped, she is missing. And

10 then I walked out through here, and opened the

11 door, and started waiting for -- front door --

12 started waiting for the police to show up.

13 (INAUDIBLE).

14 I was standing on the (INAUDIBLE)

15 and pretty soon a squad car came -- you know,

16 officer came up. And I remember thinking

17 because it said somewhere in the note, if you do

18 that, if you call somebody, that's not good.

19 Blah, blah, blah. And I just remembered

20 thinking oh, my God, I hope they are not

21 watching me. I mean, what if they are watching,

22 if the policeman comes, I mean all this was just

23 rushing through my head.

24 Anyway, he came in and -- and I was

25 just rattled. I think John came in, and I think

0012

1 he kind of walked us over to this sun room area,

2 and tried to -- tried to calm us down and, you

3 know, tried to explain what happened. And then

4 they kind of took over.

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. Let me remove a

6 couple of these and we will get started

7 backwards on some questions, and then like I

8 said we will ask you just with a marker, and I

9 will just kind of hold onto it and give it to

10 you intermittently, but you said you woke up

11 between 5:30 and 6; is that correct?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: I would --

13 TOM HANEY: Had you set the alarm,

14 did you intend --

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't set the

16 alarm. John, it's on his side of the bed and he

17 always sets that. I was just thinking he wanted

18 to take off at 7, so it means we had to leave

19 the house about 6:30, and I usually get up about

20 45 minutes, half an hour, 45 minutes to an hour

21 earlier to kind of pull things together. And we

22 just throw our clothes on and go when it's that

23 early.

24 We had to leave at 7 because we had

25 to meet Melinda and John Andrew. Normally it

0013

1 doesn't matter whether you're five or ten

2 minutes late, you're not meeting anything, you

3 are not on a schedule, but we were rendezvousing

4 with them, they were flying commercially from

5 Atlanta to Minneapolis, so we had to take off at

6 7 to meet their flight in Minneapolis.

7 TOM HANEY: Where in Minneapolis

8 were you to meet them?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: At the airport.

10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did they take

11 commercial and private?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, usually there

13 is a commercial area. Correct.

14 TOM HANEY: So you wake up and

15 you're not sure of the time. Did you happen to

16 look at the clock?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not -- I mean, not

18 to the minute, no. I mean -- no. Sometime

19 between 5:30 and 6.

20 TOM HANEY: Okay. And when you

21 woke up, where was John?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: He was up already.

23 He had gotten up, I think he was in the

24 bathroom.

25 TOM HANEY: And his bathroom --

0014

1 okay.

2 Did you see him or hear him at that

3 time?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I saw

5 him. I think I heard his shower on.

6 TOM HANEY: Let's back up a little

7 bit. That night, did you get a good night's

8 sleep?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Uh-hum.

10 TOM HANEY: Approximately what time

11 did you get to sleep on the 25th?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know

13 what time. I mean --

14 TOM HANEY: We understand that--

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just before, I mean

16 it was 10 o'clock-ish. Probably something like

17 that.

18 TOM HANEY: When you actually went

19 to sleep?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was pretty

21 soon after I hit the bed, yeah, I was pretty

22 tired.

23 TOM HANEY: So about--

24 PATSY RAMSEY: About 10:30-ish, I

25 think.

0015

1 TOM HANEY: Okay, and did -- you

2 get up between 5:30 and 6. Had you gotten up at

3 all during the night?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

5 TOM HANEY: Had you slept fairly

6 well?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

8 TOM HANEY: Well rested?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

10 TOM HANEY: Do you normally sleep

11 through the night?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, pretty much.

13 TOM HANEY: How about John?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Through the night.

15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your

16 knowledge?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

18 TOM HANEY: And he normally is a

19 pretty sound sleeper?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

21 TOM HANEY: How about Burke?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Sound sleeper.

23 TOM HANEY: And--

24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean sometimes I

25 will hear him get up and go to the bathroom, but

0016

1 I didn't hear anything last night. I didn't

2 here anything that night.

3 TOM HANEY: And how about JonBenet?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: She was really a

5 sound sleeper. She was very sound asleep that

6 night. She fell asleep in the car and was just

7 wiped out. She went to bed.

8 TOM HANEY: And you didn't wake up

9 at all during the night?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TOM HANEY: You didn't hear a

12 scream, nothing startled you?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head with

14 no audible answer).

15 TOM HANEY: And now a neighbor did

16 hear reportedly a scream, somewhere between

17 midnight and 2 a.m.?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head with

19 no audible answer.)

20 TOM HANEY: When you got up, were

21 there any lights on?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure there

23 were. We -- we -- the house was big, and

24 twisty-turny, you know, so we nearly always left

25 a light on in case somebody did get up or

0017

1 something. Because there are a lot of little

2 steps and what not. And we are not very good

3 about turning lights off.

4 TOM HANEY: Is there -- there

5 particular ones that you normally leave on?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

7 TOM HANEY: And/or we will just

8 stick with this floor for now.

9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, nothing here.

10 TOM HANEY: Okay. When you got up,

11 was it pitch black?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: John -- John, I

13 remember his bathroom right here had a light.

14 TOM HANEY: Okay. So it's shining

15 somewhat down to here, but we are talking quite

16 a distance?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there is a

18 hall light here, right here I think. That was

19 on. Because I remember, you know, when you

20 first look up it's like bright, you know, but I

21 think that he was up already, he had gone

22 through here, you know, to his bathroom area.

23 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do

24 then is with this blue marker, can you just

25 indicate the path that you took getting out of

0018

1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first

2 thing you did along that route.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there.

6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those

7 were clothes you had worn the night before?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a

11 lot.

12 TOM HANEY: Now did you intend to

13 wear those the rest of the day though or --

14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do, you know, my thinking was I

17 have my underwear and all that is in these

18 drawers here, so I put my underwear on, but I

19 put the black velvet pants on the and the red

20 sweater, red top, and then we have clothes up at

21 the lake, and I took a few things with me. You

22 know, it was just so early, I was just going to

23 throw on whatever I had up there. Just get in,

24 tumble into bed and when we awake early, you

25 know, kind of almost get ready up there. You

0019

1 know.

2 I put make up on and brushed my

3 hair but --

4 TOM HANEY: Let me steal that for a

5 second before --

6 PATSY RAMSEY: It's all over your

7 shirt, yeah.

8 TOM HANEY: So this would have not

9 been your normal routine, though, to put the

10 same clothes on?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I do whatever

12 I want. I told you that. I mean if I had a

13 pair, you know, of black shorts on, you can wear

14 them two, three days, before I send them to the

15 dry cleaners. I might have changed the top or

16 something but --

17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Okay.

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't like to do

19 laundry so I --

20 TOM HANEY: And you're getting

21 ready for this trip anyway?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

23 TOM HANEY: And there is really not

24 a whole lot of time --

25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

0020

1 TOM HANEY: -- if you're going to

2 leave at 7?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

4 TOM HANEY: So you say you put your

5 makeup on?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)

7 TOM HANEY: What brands of makeup

8 do you wear?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Different kinds.

10 TOM HANEY: Do you know what it

11 would have been at that time?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably the

13 foundation was probably either Clinique or

14 Chanel, my sister sells Chanel and she has

15 samples of everything. So keeps us in samples

16 (INAUDIBLE). Just guessing, I don't know.

17 TOM HANEY: What did you say this

18 was, the--

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Foundation.

20 TOM HANEY: Foundation. Okay. Are

21 there other things that you put on--

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Blush, lipstick. I

23 probably didn't really do a terrific job. I

24 mean just putting, get a little bit on and go,

25 you know.

0021

1 TOM HANEY: Okay. And how long do

2 you think all that in the bathroom took?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, 20, 30 minutes.

4 TOM HANEY: And what --

5 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that a different

6 brand of blush that you put on? Is that the

7 same Clinique?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I

9 have a draw full of stuff. I don't necessarily

10 use the same, you know, Chanel, Chanel, Chanel,

11 Clinique, Clinique. Just kind of whatever jar

12 is there.

13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Then after that

14 20 or 30 minutes in there, if you just take the

15 marker again and indicate the next place you

16 went?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

18 (INAUDIBLE.)

19 Okay.

20 TOM HANEY: So now we are on the

21 second floor, because you're coming down the

22 stairs?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, I am coming

24 down this way, yes. Uh-hum. I don't know, over

25 here, the laundry area, I had the ironing board

0022

1 somewhere here. And I had -- I think I had a

2 couple of plastic bags here somewhere. I think

3 I had in case I had run into the kids to take to

4 the lake. In this case I had two suit -- should

5 I write on it?

6 TOM HANEY: The only problem is I

7 don't think that the camera pick this up at this

8 angle. But you have drawn in the laundry area,

9 kind of an oblong shape for the ironing board

10 and then --

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Plastic bag.

12 TOM HANEY: -- little plastic bag,

13 which is kind of a square, rectangle, and you

14 stopped there?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just momentary. I

16 remember -- remember laying the little red

17 jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board,

18 because it had a few spots on it, so I was

19 thinking when I came back from the lake I was

20 going to take that to the dry cleaners, and

21 decided to lay that under there somewhere.

22 TOM HANEY: Was that -- it wasn't

23 something you were going to take to the lake?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, it was

25 something she had worn for a Christmas

0023

1 performance. It was a little Christmas thing.

2 TOM HANEY: When had she worn that?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: She had worn it --

4 well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls

5 performed together in a group, some Christmas

6 songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she

7 wore it for that.

8 TOM HANEY: Okay, we are halfway

9 there.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I

11 mean -- I can try to find out.

12 TOM HANEY: Yeah, okay, couple of

13 days or--

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know,

15 that's around Christmastime there. Looking for

16 -- what's her name?

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that Amerikids?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's what who

19 it was, yes. What's her name, I don't remember

20 her name.

21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that Dolan?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Dolan, exactly. She

23 would remember when that was. So she wore it

24 that day.

25 TOM HANEY: So you say she--

0024

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out

2 or done something and the light was on here.

3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light

4 was on here?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.

6 Yes. I was working there.

7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it

8 on?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

10 That could have been one that was left on, I

11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.

12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).

14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall

15 that morning coming down into the dark or --

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your

18 recollection, it was on, you think?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either

20 that light was on or there were also some

21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were

22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,

23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort

24 of lighting area.

25 TOM HANEY: Okay.

0025

1 PATSY RAMSEY: So something I am

2 sure was on, because it wasn't pitch black

3 walking down.

4 TOM HANEY: How about JonBenet's

5 room, what was the condition of the room?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember

7 racing over and her door was just kind of

8 slightly ajar.

9 TOM HANEY: And you're

10 demonstrating what, three--

11 PATSY RAMSEY: 3, 4 inches, you

12 know.

13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is that the way

14 you left it the night before?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's usually

16 the way I left it.

17 TOM HANEY: And is there a

18 particular reason?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I closed it

20 because if I did leave a light on out here, it

21 would shine pretty brightly into her room so I

22 close to make it a little darker in there. But

23 I want to leave it so if she needed me or called

24 out or something I could hear her, you know.

25 TOM HANEY: So that was the normal

0026

1 thing?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: That was the normal

3 thing to do.

4 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to look

5 in?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. At that time, I

7 did not.

8 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to

9 notice if there was any light coming from

10 inside?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice.

12 Just nothing seemed unusual.

13 TOM HANEY: Okay. So we are still

14 at the ironing board and this little red outfit.

15 What do you do with that, how long does that

16 take?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Just, I don't know,

18 just a few minutes. And I don't know, I can't

19 remember what I was doing. I just remember I

20 was trying to get this bag ready to go to the

21 lake, I had two suitcases in here of the

22 children's things, I was trying to get ready,

23 because when we came back from the lake we were

24 going on to Disney and the Big Red Boat.

25 TOM HANEY: You're going to go to

0027

1 Charlevoix, am I saying that right?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Charlevoix.

3 TOM HANEY: You're going there the

4 26th at 7 in the morning. How long are you

5 going to stay there?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just a couple of

7 days, I think, because we were due back, I think

8 we were supposed to leave on the Big Red Boat on

9 my birthday, which is the 29th. So would

10 that -- was that a Saturday?

11 TOM HANEY: I think Christmas was

12 -- 25th was a Wednesday, and so Sunday would

13 have been the 29th approximately.

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, somewhere

15 around there. I just didn't have very much time

16 when we got back. So I was prepacking stuff

17 here. So --

18 TOM HANEY: Let me just keep you on

19 this. The Big Red Boat thing on the 29th, what

20 time were you going to leave for that, do you

21 recall?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: We had airline

23 flights out of Denver.

24 TOM HANEY: Commercial?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It must be

0028

1 somewhere.

2 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember what

3 carrier?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think we

5 called Disney at a number you call, and they do

6 some sort of package thing, they put it

7 together, so I don't know, Delta, United or --

8 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

9 PATSY RAMSEY: The point is we

10 didn't go from Charlevoix, we had to fly back

11 from Charlevoix to Denver to take a commercial

12 flight to Orlando.

13 TOM HANEY: And do you know when

14 you would have come back from Charlevoix?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like the day

16 before.

17 TOM HANEY: Okay. The 8th

18 approximately?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Or it could

20 have, you -- yeah, I think that's right. I

21 just, I don't remember exactly whether we were

22 leaving on Saturday or Sunday, and we were going

23 to be on the Big Red Boat for my birthday.

24 TOM HANEY: Which was the plan?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

0029

1 TOM HANEY: So you're in the

2 laundry, you say you spent a couple of minutes

3 there, two, five?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably five or

5 ten. You know.

6 TOM HANEY: Okay.

7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I had

8 some laundry in here. I know I was -- just was

9 here for a few minutes. And then I (INAUDIBLE.)

10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, Tom, could I

11 clarify one thing. So what's your estimate of

12 the total time you spent in the guest bedroom,

13 laundry room area before you started heading

14 down the stairs, what's your best estimate?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Five or ten

16 minutes.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, thank you.

18 TOM HANEY: Now, we have the

19 diagram for the first floor.

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

21 TOM HANEY: So you come -- you're

22 coming down the stairs. Are there any lights on

23 in that spiral staircase?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, just you know,

25 can't remember exactly. But I mean there was

0030

1 enough light -- it wasn't pitch black, in other

2 words. But there was either a light coming from

3 here somewhere or like I said, the sconce or

4 something. You know, interior stairwell.

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. And I don't

6 recall, and I was in the house but I didn't

7 notice, the sconces, are they high up, all the

8 way up and down?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, they are just

10 kind of wall sort of sconces. Those you could

11 dim, you know, raise or dim the light. So those

12 you know, that typically would be left on at

13 night. And you could dim them from here.

14 TRIP DeMUTH: Are they on the first

15 or second floor, the sconces?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: They go in between,

17 they are in the stairway.

18 Okay, I come down here, and you

19 know, some of the rooms are light here where

20 these three pieces of paper were.

21 TOM HANEY: Which -- let me steal

22 that from you. Which running of the stairs were

23 they on?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't the

25 bottom one. I would say it was like -- I mean I

0031

1 had to bend over, you know, to look at it, you

2 know.

3 TOM HANEY: And when you first see

4 it, what's your first reaction?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, my initial

6 reaction was that -- I mean, I probably would

7 stack things going upstairs, you know, shoes or

8 toys or whatever, that was -- and that would

9 take a load so there was typically always

10 something there, going one way or the other.

11 But this was laid out across the

12 tread, you know. This was laid out across the

13 treads, so I mean I just thought well, papers,

14 you know, John would have taken up to see or

15 something, I don't know. Thanks.

16 And then when I came down and

17 looked at it, glanced at it, my first reaction

18 was that it was a note from my cleaning lady.

19 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you

20 there. You are kind of bounding down the stairs

21 I would imagine?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

23 TOM HANEY: Kind of get going?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

25 TOM HANEY: You come to it, you

0032

1 stop and you look and see -- you kind of bend

2 over from higher up?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I passed it,

4 then turned back around to turn to look and see

5 what it was.

6 TOM HANEY: Did you step over that

7 rung or--

8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I

9 stepped on it, because you know, you step on

10 paper, it kind of does that. So I somehow got

11 around it.

12 TOM HANEY: Okay. And the note,

13 and let me just hand you -- here is a copy of

14 the note. If you just lay it out for us here on

15 the table the way it was laid out.

16 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

17 TOM HANEY: And that's if you're

18 looking from the bottom it would be on like you

19 said either the second--

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Like here to the

21 steps going up.

22 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now, was there

23 sufficient light from those sconces for you to

24 read it?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

0033

1 TOM HANEY: Do you wear glasses,

2 contacts?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I didn't then.

4 I do now, a little bit. For reading.

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. Can you -- do

6 you have your contacts in now?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have

8 contacts, no.

9 TOM HANEY: Can you read this?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You want me

11 to read it to you?

12 TOM HANEY: No, no, that's fine.

13 But could you read it then without any problem?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

15 TOM HANEY: So you see it. What do

16 you do?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: I read -- I read

18 down to about, it says, "at this time we have

19 your daughter in our possession."

20 For some reason, I don't -- don't

21 ask me why but, I start --

22 TRIP DeMUTH: Don't count on him

23 not asking you why.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: I, my first flash

25 that was in my head was I thought it was Beth,

0034

1 our daughter, I don't know why I thought --

2 (INAUDIBLE), and then "daughter in our

3 possession, she is safe from harm, your daughter

4 in 1997," then when I realized this was now,

5 this was new material, this was not something --

6 you know, papers from that had to do with Beth.

7 And just I stopped and just went up the stairs.

8 TOM HANEY: When you bent down to

9 read it, did you pick it up or did you leave it

10 on the stair?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't

12 remember exactly.

13 TOM HANEY: Well, and it would be a

14 little uncomfortable I would think to--

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I just kind of --

16 you know, and then I realized and went --

17 (Indicating).

18 TOM HANEY: So you left it in

19 that --

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think I left

21 it --

22 TOM HANEY: -- approximate location

23 like it's laid out now?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So as far as

0035

1 getting to the bottom of the stairs, that's as

2 far as you got?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got -- I was

4 to the floor.

5 TOM HANEY: Okay.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: I got down to the

7 floor here and turned around and looked at it.

8 TOM HANEY: Now --

9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, if that's not

10 clear, because the camera can't see it, it's

11 laid out pages 1, 2 and 3 left to right as you

12 were looking from the floor towards the stairs,

13 correct?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.

15 TOM HANEY: And you said that you

16 just read that first paragraph?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

18 TOM HANEY: And that's when you

19 stopped?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

21 TOM HANEY: Had you since or did

22 you that day read the rest of the note?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I read -- I

24 came back down and John had it, you know, on the

25 floor, and what not, and I was glancing at it,

0036

1 and somewhere I thought in there, because I

2 didn't read it line by line, I looked over to

3 see who it was from, and I didn't know who that

4 was. And somewhere I caught in there where it

5 said if you call some -- don't call the police

6 or -- wherever it said that.

7 Oh, here, police, FBI, et cetera,

8 your daughter being held. And I read that and I

9 mean, my blood just went cold. You know, I

10 couldn't --

11 TOM HANEY: That was some time

12 later?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was kind of

14 all during, I mean after John came down and he

15 had the note and I was "God, what are we going

16 to do, what are we going to do?"

17 And he said, "call the police, call

18 911" and I was looking around reading but it

19 said don't do that. You know, what if they

20 heard, it said we got to call, call them, I mean

21 all this was like in minutes.

22 TOM HANEY: Have you ever since

23 that day read the entire note?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes.

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Probably on more

0037

1 than one occasion?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

3 TOM HANEY: And in looking at it,

4 these are the times when you have -- and looking

5 at it today, do you notice anything about it,

6 anything that you recognize, anything that looks

7 familiar, similar to anything you have seen

8 before?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: This M kind of looks

10 like an M that I have seen somebody make. I

11 don't know -- I have wracked my brain over this

12 a million times. But you know, everything else

13 was just, you know --

14 TOM HANEY: Do you notice any

15 similarities to, say, your style of indentation

16 and signing off and the use of exclamation

17 points, anything like that?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, as you

19 know, I have had umpteen handwriting samples and

20 they all want to say that, you know, my A's look

21 like this or --

22 TOM HANEY: I am not talking so

23 much about the handwriting itself. I am talking

24 about the style of the "Mr. Ramsey"?

25 Introduction, the indentation, the signing off

0038

1 at the end?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

3 TOM HANEY: No? Similar to your

4 style?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I usually sign

6 "regards" or something like that. "Love".

7 TOM HANEY: So you see the note,

8 you read that portion, you're at the bottom of

9 the stairs, then you start back up?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: I ran up.

11 TOM HANEY: Before that, that's

12 right. But before -- what was the first thing

13 you do? Do you say something, do you do

14 something?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I realized that and

16 I went bounding up the stairs to her room and

17 pushed the door open. I mean pushing the door,

18 I did not go through it, I just pushed it open

19 and saw she wasn't in her bed.

20 TOM HANEY: Let's -- now you

21 said -- here is a different marker. We will use

22 a green one. Coming back up the stairs, so

23 you're coming up from the first floor, now we

24 are on the second floor.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, I came up,

0039

1 bounding up here. Over to here, pushed the door

2 open. She wasn't there. I ran under --

3 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you

4 there. When you pushed the door open, was there

5 a light on in the room?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: There was -- her

7 lamp light was not on. You know, there was

8 enough light that I could tell she wasn't in her

9 bed. Now, whether that was coming from the

10 laundry area, whether daylight was breaking or

11 whether there was -- you know, sometime we left

12 a little night light here on in her bathroom, so

13 you know, I -- all I know is I was able to see

14 that there is no one lying in that bed and the

15 covers are ruffled.

16 TOM HANEY: Did you go past that

17 door?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

19 TOM HANEY: You didn't enter that

20 room at all?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

22 TOM HANEY: Did you -- did you

23 think that possibly she had gotten out of the

24 bed, was somewhere else in the room you didn't--

25 PATSY RAMSEY: It just happened so

0040

1 fast, and I, you know, read that letter and said

2 "we have your daughter", your mind goes berserk.

3 I mean I was -- and then I went up there and my

4 child is not in the bed. You know, I didn't,

5 nothing against your questioning, but no, I

6 didn't stand around and say I wonder if she is

7 in here, I wonder if she is in there. I

8 screamed for John.

9 TOM HANEY: Okay, and that's why

10 you were standing here?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I am going this way

12 and I lean on and said John -- you know, the

13 landing is like here, is like this, then it

14 turns and like that. And I leaned over, I mean

15 my knees were like, you know, buckling. And oh,

16 God, and he came down and I said, "she's gone,

17 she's gone, there is a note, she's been

18 kidnapped."

19 TOM HANEY: So you're here at the

20 base of the stairs?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

22 TOM HANEY: You scream for John?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no

24 audible response).

25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember exactly

0041

1 what words you used, was it more than just John

2 or--

3 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember my voice

4 was just cracking. I mean it was like "John",

5 like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know,

6 I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he

7 came up from the basement, I mean it was just a

8 horrible thing. You know, it was just --

9 TOM HANEY: Where does John, and we

10 will use a red marker now for John, where does

11 he first appear in there, at least in this

12 diagram, if you can start there?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: He comes down those

14 stairs there. (Indicating) and so we are both

15 like standing here, I am pacing, I said oh, my

16 God, you know there is a note, she's been

17 kidnapped. She is not in her bed, you know.

18 You know, then everything gets really you know,

19 who's on first kind of thing.

20 TOM HANEY: So you made two little

21 X's in red. They are near the base of the

22 stairs. And that's where you two have this

23 conversation?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

25 TOM HANEY: What is John's -- how

0042

1 is he dressed?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: He is in his

3 underwear.

4 TOM HANEY: Just shorts or--

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And what

7 conversation, what does he say to you?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, I can't

9 remember.

10 TOM HANEY: Okay. He still hasn't

11 felt the impact of this, right?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He said, "you

13 know, slowdown" or "what is it, what is it", and

14 I said, you know, "I went downstairs, there is a

15 letter, says she's been kidnapped."

16 And he said, "where is the letter?"

17 I said -- I think I said, "oh, my

18 God, Burke" or something. And I think he ran in

19 to start to check on Burke.

20 TOM HANEY: So let's just do

21 this --

22 PATSY RAMSEY: And I said, "there

23 is a letter downstairs. "

24 TOM HANEY: So you--

25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I think I went

0043

1 down and got it. I just can't remember

2 everything.

3 TOM HANEY: To the best of your

4 recollection, we will just take a second here,

5 again with the red marker, let's indicate where

6 John goes? You said he goes to check on Burke?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went to

8 check on Burke.

9 TOM HANEY: Would you just draw

10 where he goes and then he leaves your sight so--

11 PATSY RAMSEY: He's not leaving my

12 sight. You know, he went through the first

13 room, he went this way.

14 TOM HANEY: Did he say he was going

15 to go check on Burke or did you tell him to, or

16 do you recall?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't recall.

18 TOM HANEY: He leaves presumably,

19 to do that. You're standing here still, you're

20 the other red X. What do you do?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: I went back

22 downstairs.

23 TOM HANEY: Maybe this time with a

24 broken line you can just indicate going back

25 down.

0044

1 (MS. RAMSEY COMPLIES.)

2 TOM HANEY: You're still the green

3 one. You come down the spiral stairs. The note

4 is--

5 PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --

6 TOM HANEY: -- same place,

7 different place?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this

9 area, maybe still on the floor or something, you

10 know. I don't know what happened to it exactly

11 when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right

12 there somewhere.

13 TOM HANEY: The second time you

14 don't recall exactly where it was?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was

16 laying around on the floor here somewhere or

17 something. After I went up the stairs. It was

18 there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I

19 either handed it to John or he went in and

20 picked it up. Anyway I came over to the phone.

21 TOM HANEY: Let's stop there. He

22 came down the stairs. He has already gone to

23 presumably to check on her --

24 (Multiple speakers.)

25 TOM HANEY: And you come down here?

0045

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

2 TOM HANEY: So you get down there,

3 he is not there. I assume, John?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you do

6 between the time you get down there and the time

7 that he does show up?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Just kind of

9 standing around in here. You know. I was

10 screaming and crying and --

11 TOM HANEY: Okay, and what -- okay,

12 what were you screaming, what were you saying?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: I said, "oh, my God

14 how did they get in, why don't we hear

15 anything," you know, "where were they, how could

16 this happen?" I mean I was just --

17 TOM HANEY: So you're not reading

18 the note then?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

20 TOM HANEY: You're just wandering

21 around in this area?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

23 TOM HANEY: And that's the area

24 just--

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Like the --

0046

1 TOM HANEY: -- south of the spiral

2 stairs?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. This, the

4 little bar, sort of like in this little area. I

5 was just like, you know, indicating (INAUDIBLE).

6 TOM HANEY: And where do you see

7 John, when did you see him next? Use red for

8 him?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know

10 how -- I mean the next thing I remember, I

11 was -- he was saying, "call the police, call the

12 police," he had the note and he was kneeling

13 right here.

14 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's stop you

15 again. You're in here and I understand --

16 understandably you're pacing around?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

18 TOM HANEY: And screaming. When

19 and where do you see John?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: In this area

21 (indicating).

22 TOM HANEY: And what is he doing

23 there?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: He said -- you know,

25 I said "there is the note." I think I handed

0047

1 him the note here, somehow in this space he got

2 the note.

3 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's just put an

4 X on this main floor diagram, where you first

5 see John again.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, right here.

7 TOM HANEY: So you don't know if he

8 went to check on Burke, came down the front

9 stairs and then came down through the kitchen?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

11 TOM HANEY: But he appears there?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

13 TOM HANEY: Take that back just --

14 what discussion do you two have there?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I was just

16 saying, "how did they get in, how did this

17 happen, who would do this?"

18 You know, screaming, screaming.

19 "What's the note say?"

20 John is saying "call 911, call

21 911."

22 TOM HANEY: Now that was his

23 initial response?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

25 TOM HANEY: Was that before or

0048

1 after he had a chance to read the note?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he was crouched

3 on his knees here in his underwear. He laid the

4 papers out right there, 1, 2, 3 and was reading

5 it like this.

6 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up

7 again. You said a minute ago something to the

8 effect that maybe you went and got him the note.

9 Do you know how he--

10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know

11 exactly. Maybe he will remember. But I mean I

12 left the note somewhere here, whether I picked

13 it up and threw it down, just took off. And

14 then came back down the stairs, and whether I

15 picked it up, and then he came down, I gave it

16 to him. And said here's the note or whatever.

17 TOM HANEY: Now are you just

18 guessing or do you know--

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember

20 exactly.

21 TOM HANEY: Okay.

22 PATSY RAMSEY: But I know I left

23 the note here and then when he came I was

24 walking around here, he picked up the note or

25 had the note somehow, was down on the floor

0049

1 reading it.

2 TOM HANEY: And again the area we

3 are talking about you have marked with an X

4 where you see him.

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

6 TOM HANEY: Would you just show us

7 where those pages are, put a 1, 2, and 3 how

8 they are laid out?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Here he was facing

10 this one.

11 TOM HANEY: He is facing to the

12 south and that's according to the north on the

13 diagram?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

15 TOM HANEY: Okay, he is there, he

16 was in his underwear on his hands and knees. I

17 think that's a wood floor there?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a light

20 on there then?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, just this hall

22 light here.

23 TOM HANEY: Do you recall did you

24 or he turn it on?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.

0050

1 TOM HANEY: Where are you while he

2 is doing that?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: I am on the phone

4 right here. Phone right here.

5 TOM HANEY: Let's just put a T for

6 the telephone there?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: (COMPLIES WITH

8 REQUEST).

9 TOM HANEY: And you're standing

10 right there. You already said that John told

11 you call 911?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

13 TOM HANEY: And then you walk over

14 to the phone?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

16 TOM HANEY: And he is doing what?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: He's on his hands

18 like this (indicating), on his -- like crouched

19 on his knees, reading it.

20 TOM HANEY: And what is he saying?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing much. He

22 said, "call the police, we have got to call the

23 police."

24 TOM HANEY: And how does he say it,

25 is it like that?

0051

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like that.

2 TOM HANEY: Cool?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Pretty --

4 TOM HANEY: He is pretty cool and

5 calm?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: I was nuts, he

7 was -- I mean shaking but he was trying to --

8 TOM HANEY: You say you were nuts?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

10 TOM HANEY: Are you still

11 screaming, yelling, crying?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I mean I was

13 just in shock. You know, you know, just how did

14 they get in, who did this, my God, what are we

15 going to do?

16 TOM HANEY: Now, the phone that's

17 there, that's a fixed phone?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding, no audible

19 answer).

20 TOM HANEY: And the phone number

21 there for that phone, do you recall? Let me ask

22 it another way. Are there other phone lines

23 into the house, do you have more than one

24 number?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I can't

0052

1 remember. We had a fax machine up in John's

2 office. And the computer, although we never go

3 on the Internet on that, I don't think. I don't

4 know. I think it's just one.

5 TOM HANEY: Just one, possibly a

6 second for the fax and the computer or the

7 modem?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I can't

9 remember. I think there was only one. It seems

10 like when we got a fax I had to run upstairs and

11 turn the fax machine on, because they come on

12 the same line. I mean the phone had 6 buttons

13 set or something but that was the previous

14 owners that had that put in.

15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your

16 knowledge just the one line?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we just had

18 one.

19 TOM HANEY: One number? Okay.

20 Now, I have to stop you here because at my house

21 if there is an emergency, if there is a problem

22 and my wife is screaming and yelling and

23 panicked, I wouldn't have her call anybody.

24 Because they would never figure out what she is

25 saying. And it sounds like you're in kind of an

0053

1 emotional state, and John, he is the CEO, he is

2 cool, he is calm, he is down there, he is

3 processing this note and he tells you to call

4 911?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

6 TOM HANEY: It just seems kind of

7 odd to me. What --

8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether

9 it's odd or not, but that's what happened.

10 TOM HANEY: Okay.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, you know, I

12 had it together enough to call. And I said,

13 this is Patsy Ramsey at 755 15th Street or

14 whatever. She I think she was trying to make

15 sure I got it out, you know.

16 TOM HANEY: In fact, you got it out

17 pretty good, you got the address which a lot of

18 callers who call the police, who call 911 --

19 PATSY RAMSEY: -- can't remember

20 their names.

21 TOM HANEY: Well, they don't give

22 the address. You seemed to give the address

23 pretty quick. When you called did you practice

24 this, did you rehearse, did you think about what

25 you were going to say?

0054

1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, just

2 instantaneously, you know.

3 TOM HANEY: Okay, and it just came

4 out like that. So John is down there reading it

5 and you call 911. You have this conversation

6 with them. What happens at the end of that?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: When I hung up, they

8 said they would send somebody out, and I don't

9 know, I think John went to get dressed. I was

10 you know, was just pacing around here praying.

11 TRIP DeMUTH: You say he was in his

12 underwear.

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

14 TRIP DeMUTH: What does underwear

15 consist of?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: His briefs.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Anything else?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.

19 TRIP DeMUTH: So he was otherwise

20 naked except for his briefs?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.

22 TOM HANEY: Now with the green

23 again, if you could just mark, you say you were

24 just kind of pacing. Is that through the

25 kitchen area?

0055

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

2 TOM HANEY: If you would just draw

3 a line through there?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Ms. Ramsey

5 complies.)

6 TOM HANEY: You said John leaves

7 your sight?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

9 TOM HANEY: Do you know where he

10 goes then?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not exactly.

12 I just presume he went up to get dressed,

13 because he came back downstairs dressed.

14 TOM HANEY: How long was he gone?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Oh, I

16 don't know. Ten minutes. I am just guessing.

17 I mean, I wasn't watching my clock or anything.

18 TOM HANEY: Absolutely. So do you

19 know, does he go back up the back stairs?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know for

21 sure. But very likely.

22 TOM HANEY: Do you know, did he

23 take the note with him?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.

25 TOM HANEY: So you're just pacing

0056

1 and you have indicated between the front door

2 and the telephone area on the west side of the

3 kitchen.

4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no

5 audible response).

6 TOM HANEY: And John leaves your

7 sight?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

9 TOM HANEY: Is there any discussion

10 with him before he goes about what he's going to

11 do or what you're going to do?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.

13 TOM HANEY: Then he's gone for you

14 say five or ten minutes. Where do you next see

15 him? I just ask you to put a circle.

16 TRIP DeMUTH: Circle this time.

17 TOM HANEY: A circle where he is

18 when you next see him?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, probably in this

20 area, when the officer came we kind of both met

21 him there.

22 TOM HANEY: So you didn't, between

23 the time that you hung up the phone and he left,

24 you don't see John again until about the time

25 the officer shows?

0057

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that's the

2 first time I remember seeing him.

3 TOM HANEY: Let's take a minute and

4 think about it. Because it seems like from the

5 prior statement that he had done some things or

6 that you had guys had had some discussions about

7 him checking doors?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, well, you

9 know, he did that when I was pacing back here,

10 "how did he get in, how did he get in?"

11 I remember John checking this door

12 and that was usually always unlocked because

13 that goes to the garage.

14 TOM HANEY: Was this prior to the

15 phone call to 911?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: This probably was.

17 You know, we were just right in there. You

18 know, I just don't -- this all happened so fast.

19 TOM HANEY: So at some point there,

20 though, he checks that door to--

21 PATSY RAMSEY: He checks that, I

22 think he checked this one.

23 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's stick with

24 the garage door first, the walk-in door. What

25 did he do to check that?

0058

1 PATSY RAMSEY: He opened the door

2 and kind of jiggled the handle, you know, to see

3 whether it was locked or not.

4 TOM HANEY: Is it normally locked?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: It's normally

6 unlocked, because this is the garage door and

7 that's where you come in.

8 TOM HANEY: So checking that and

9 moving the handle--

10 PATSY RAMSEY: It sometimes

11 accidentally gets locked, and we get locked out,

12 but typically it's left open, left unlocked.

13 TOM HANEY: Is it just a little

14 button to--

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

16 TOM HANEY: When you turn that to

17 go out and it will lock itself?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

19 TOM HANEY: But he checks that?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

21 TOM HANEY: And then after that you

22 said he checked this other door, that door on

23 the south side between the study and the

24 kitchen?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think he did

0059

1 that.

2 TOM HANEY: Would you just indicate

3 a line then indicating his travel from the

4 garage door to the--

5 PATSY RAMSEY: He went to check

6 that door and then checked this door.

7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there more--

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Or vice versa, you

9 know, I think he might have even have gone down

10 to this door.

11 TOM HANEY: Did you say see him go

12 down there or was your feeling or you remember

13 him going down that way?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I just kind of -- I

15 mean, I was just out of my mind, I am crying, I

16 am crying, I am stammering, and he is like

17 walking around everywhere, like checking -- sort

18 of checking around.

19 TOM HANEY: And you think he

20 checked that door?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went down

22 there.

23 TRIP DeMUTH: Why?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That's just, this

25 house has so darn many doors, you know, just to

0060

1 see if that was left unlocked or something or

2 maybe I don't --

3 TRIP DeMUTH: Take a moment and try

4 to remember what it is you remember about him

5 going down there.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: I just seem to

7 remember him walking down the stairs. Because I

8 don't know that I actually saw him, you know,

9 but I vaguely remember him --

10 TRIP DeMUTH: You do have a memory

11 of him going down the stairs towards the butler

12 kitchen?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so. I

14 can't say for sure, but I think so.

15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The garage

16 door, did you ask her if it was locked or

17 unlocked?

18 TOM HANEY: Yeah, but go ahead.

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know

20 whether it was or not, but typically we left

21 that unlocked.

22 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't know what

23 condition it was in?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the south

0061

1 door?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.

3 TOM HANEY: Did you yourself check

4 any doors?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

6 TOM HANEY: Or John checked two

7 that we know of, the garage and this south door

8 and possibly--

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly that one.

10 TOM HANEY: Did he ever tell you

11 that he checked that butler door?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

13 TOM HANEY: So he is checking those

14 doors and that would have been the, to put this

15 in sequence, prior to your 911 call.

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know

17 if it was prior or not. No, no. I think I

18 called the 911 pretty quick, because he was

19 still in his underwear. And I think when he was

20 checking those doors he was dressed.

21 TOM HANEY: Okay, all right. So--

22 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean this

23 happened, you know, within minutes of all of

24 this going upstairs here.

25 TOM HANEY: Almost immediately?

0062

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Almost immediately.

2 TOM HANEY: That you're on that

3 phone?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

5 TOM HANEY: And then he is reading

6 the note and then is that when he is checking

7 the doors or are you saying that he was dressed

8 when he was checking them?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Gosh, I don't know I

10 don't remember exactly. It's been a long time.

11 These are the kinds of questions I wish we could

12 have done way the hell a long time ago.

13 TOM HANEY: Absolutely.

14 PATSY RAMSEY: They are now but --

15 TOM HANEY: As we are--

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe he can

17 remember. I just remember by this time I am

18 hysterical.

19 TOM HANEY: And as we are going

20 through this, if there were things that you

21 remember specifically, those are the important

22 things. If it's something that somebody else

23 has helped jog your memory, whether it's someone

24 you talked to or something you have seen or

25 read, you know, we want to be able to

0063

1 distinguish between those; okay. All right.

2 So we have made the phone call, we

3 have checked some doors and the exact sequence

4 of the door checking we are not sure of, but

5 you're again standing in this area between the

6 front door and there. Can you say how long

7 before the officer arrived?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, it seemed like

9 forever, though I am sure it was fairly quickly.

10 I mean seconds are hours, you know.

11 TOM HANEY: Sure. Do you ever

12 again leave this floor after you made that 911

13 call? Do you go anywhere else, do you go down

14 the stairs to the basement?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

16 TOM HANEY: You don't go anywhere

17 else yourself?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I mostly went over

19 here, by that time I told you I called the

20 Whites and Fernies, they came.

21 TOM HANEY: You called the Whites

22 and the Fernies. Do you recall who first or--

23 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I called the

24 Whites first.

25 TOM HANEY: Were they closer to

0064

1 you?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we had just

3 gone there the night before, you know, and --

4 and I just dialed them up. They and the Fernies

5 were like our best friends, you know.

6 TOM HANEY: Let's take the call to

7 the Whites first. I think that was the

8 sequence?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so.

10 TOM HANEY: And you called them.

11 Who answered, what is said?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think Priscilla

13 answered. And I mean, I don't know what I said

14 exactly. But somehow communicated to her that

15 JonBenet was gone and had been kidnapped and

16 could they come over. I don't know. I was just

17 hysterical.

18 Then I hung up the phone and called

19 the Fernies. And I believe John Fernie

20 answered.

21 TOM HANEY: Do you recall exactly

22 what you told him?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: I said -- I said --

24 I am not sure if I told him -- I just can't

25 remember what I told. "Oh, please, you got to

0065

1 come, please can you bring someone over" or

2 something. I don't remember.

3 TOM HANEY: And understanding that

4 they are close friends, but did you think that,

5 give any thought to having all this traffic

6 coming over?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

8 TOM HANEY: Folks coming to the

9 house?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TOM HANEY: You had gotten through

12 that portion of the note that talked about don't

13 call the police, the FBI?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

15 TOM HANEY: We are watching you or

16 something like that?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: I know.

18 TOM HANEY: How long does it take

19 for them to get over there?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it would have

21 been just pretty quick.

22 TOM HANEY: How much after the

23 arrival of the first officer?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Not much. Just, I

25 don't know, 15 minutes, you know.

0066

1 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up

2 again. We talked about that phone, possible

3 phone lines. Did you folks at that time have

4 any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--

5 PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell

6 phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at

7 Christmas, little teeny one.

8 TOM HANEY: Was it activated?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's

10 activated when you buy it.

11 TOM HANEY: It's not much of a

12 present if it doesn't work?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was

14 activated.

15 TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you

16 recall the phone number?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

18 TOM HANEY: How about John's cell

19 phone, do you recall that number?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

21 TOM HANEY: Did he have just the

22 one, was that a personal one?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and

24 he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years

25 ago, and he -- I think he lost and then --

0067

1 anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic

2 one at, what's that store -- that music video

3 store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of

4 those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had

5 it sitting on the window ledge charging and he

6 walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will

7 just take this one.

8 And I think meanwhile, Denise, his

9 secretary had ordered him a new phone.

10 TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access

11 Graphics phone?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I

13 mean there were a couple of phones and they were

14 both relatively new and I don't know what the

15 number was.

16 TOM HANEY: And where were they

17 normally kept?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

19 TOM HANEY: His--

20 PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually

21 charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or

22 something.

23 TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger

24 set up somewhere though or--

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't

0068

1 remember.

2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And between the

3 time that you folks had returned from the Whites

4 on Christmas night, and this call to the Boulder

5 police in the morning, on the 26th, had you made

6 or received any phone calls on any of those

7 lines?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall,

9 no.

10 TOM HANEY: Of course anything that

11 would have disturbed your sleep you would have

12 recalled that?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.

14 TOM HANEY: Anything major in that

15 time frame?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you ever go

18 up and check on Burke, you yourself?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. I mean,

20 you mean like that or --

21 TOM HANEY: This morning, the 26th.

22 Let's get you back there. We are still pacing

23 around?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't

25 think I did. I think John said he was fine

0069

1 and -- I can't -- I just can't recall that I

2 did.

3 TOM HANEY: Okay. So do you recall

4 at what point you and John had this discussion

5 about Burke, you said he said Burke was fine?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this

7 bedlam, you know, that was --

8 TOM HANEY: Okay, and again, prior

9 to or after the arrival of the officers?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably prior to.

11 TOM HANEY: Okay. So he goes quiet

12 then when you see him down there again that's in

13 fact what he had done?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.

15 TOM HANEY: When he was upstairs.

16 All right, you lost sight of him on the second

17 floor. So Burke is fine, you don't go up there.

18 The officer comes and then you say he takes you

19 into the solarium. If you would again, just

20 mark--

21 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I think that

22 we talked a little bit here and sort of moved

23 over this way.

24 TRIP DeMUTH: And in here is that

25 --

0070

1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's the foyer.

2 TRIP DeMUTH: The foyer, okay.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, in

4 there somewhere.

5 TOM HANEY: And you said that the

6 Whites and the Fernies joined you shortly after

7 that. Do they also come in here in this

8 solarium area?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). We

10 were -- we were kind -- we were in this area

11 here. I mean, I don't remember where we were at

12 any one point. A lot of people started coming

13 in, two older women from -- I don't know where

14 they were from. They were like helpers. A

15 helper.

16 TOM HANEY: Directory assistance

17 folks (difficult to understand)?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, these older

19 ladies, they were in here, and I was just in

20 here, this is like my little area.

21 TRIP DeMUTH: The solarium.

22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just hover,

23 when I was sick, I recouped a lot in there

24 and I was just in there praying and

25 praying and praying and then Linda Arndt

0071

1 came, she introduced herself to me and

2 said they were going to set up the wire

3 tap so then John was with her and kind of

4 taking care of business, they were all

5 back in here.

6 TRIP DeMUTH: This study?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

8 TOM HANEY: Anything else?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Father Rol came, he

10 was standing right here praying.

11 TRIP DeMUTH: The living room?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: The living room.

13 TOM HANEY: Let me just set this

14 aside and make sure, we will come back to all of

15 these later, but we will take just kind of a

16 break from that and what I want to do is talk

17 for a couple of minutes about various people who

18 have come up in this investigation, various

19 names.

20 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you want to take a

21 break before we do this?

22 TOM HANEY: It's about 10:19 and we

23 will take a break now, five, ten, somewhere.

24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

25 (Recess taken).

0072

1 TOM HANEY: Okay, we are back on

2 tape. I have 10:30. And before we go into the

3 names that I mentioned, we do have a couple of

4 follow-up questions.

5 One, would the children normally go

6 downstairs if they woke up or would they stay on

7 their floor or--

8 PATSY RAMSEY: They would typically

9 stay on their floor. They had a TV, play room,

10 stay on that floor.

11 TRIP DeMUTH: So in the middle of

12 the night did they ever go downstairs, if they

13 woke up in the night would they go down into the

14 kitchen, let's say?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.

16 TRIP DeMUTH: And could you hear

17 them go to the bathroom?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I could hear

19 Burke go to the bathroom, because his

20 bathroom is sort of more toward the end of

21 our bedroom.

22 TRIP DeMUTH: How about

23 JonBenet?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: I wouldn't hear her

25 go.

0073

1 TRIP DeMUTH: Could you hear her

2 toilet flush or anything, the plumbing?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.

4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Could you hear

5 the garage door from your bedroom go up and

6 down?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

8 TRIP DeMUTH: Go ahead, Tom.

9 TOM HANEY: In the earlier

10 interview, and I think it was the one on April

11 30 last year, the Whites' name came up as

12 because they were formerly very good friends

13 that you called that morning, but people that

14 you were now suspicious of or something about

15 their behavior.

16 Could you tell us what about them

17 has changed and what you have noticed?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess --

19 every --

20 TOM HANEY: Be candid.

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, everything

22 that -- you know, I mean, everything. Our

23 relationship was perfectly normal and fine, and

24 like I said, there are close friends who called

25 first thing that morning. And it was a very

0074

1 traumatic morning, obviously, for everyone

2 there. And people handled things differently,

3 and I know that -- but, suffice to say that

4 Fleet and Priscilla, Fleet probably more so,

5 just on a number of different occasions started

6 reacting very strangely.

7 TOM HANEY: Okay. How did he

8 react?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --

10 TOM HANEY: What did he react to.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the

12 first -- let's see. The first time -- I mean,

13 you know, after we found JonBenet, I mean I was

14 just in shock and really was -- was not paying

15 too much attention to things. But the first

16 time I really realized that something was amiss

17 was when we were going to go to Atlanta for the

18 funeral on the Lockheed plane, and there was

19 some like scuttle, confusion or something, why

20 Fleet was not going on that plane. I mean our

21 close friends that had been basically -- you

22 know, I don't know what they were doing, John

23 and my girlfriends were bathing me and feeding

24 me and taking me to the bathroom. I mean I was

25 just immobile for all intents and purposes.

0075

1 And -- and I just remember hearing

2 something that John Fernie was going to detain

3 Fleet because he was in no condition to be put

4 on that plane.

5 TOM HANEY: No condition due to?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was -- and like I

7 say, I am kind of like just catching, you know,

8 wafts of these conversations. But that was my

9 first recollection. I picked up on something

10 that Fleet was not acting right. And they were

11 going to keep him from going on the private

12 plane back to Atlanta.

13 So anyway, I didn't want to think

14 too much about it, and then when we were in

15 Atlanta, I just sort of remember Priscilla

16 standing in my mother's living room, family

17 room, you know, just kind of like this and

18 saying, "well, I know what's going on" and she

19 said, "if you would give me a few minutes of

20 your time, I could let you in on some things."

21 And I turned to her and I said,

22 "Priscilla, how can you know so much?" And I

23 said, "I am the mother of this child. And I

24 know nothing."

25 TOM HANEY: What was she referring

0076

1 to?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.

3 I really, I mean, you know, so many times I wish

4 I would have taken her up on it to see what the

5 hell she was talking about. There was just her

6 -- you know, it was just this kind of, I know

7 what's going on here and you don't. And if you

8 give me a few minutes of your time, I could clue

9 you in.

10 TOM HANEY: But she didn't give you

11 a clue or--

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Didn't say, didn't

13 say. So that was like the second little thing.

14 So then, let's see. We were at --

15 we were at my parents, and we had different

16 friends who had come in from Colorado and my

17 friends in Atlanta were putting them up in homes

18 and what not, and my understanding is that Fleet

19 and Priscilla had been invited by my brother and

20 sister-in-law Jeff Ramsey to stay in their home.

21 So I was in bed, and somebody,

22 either my sister, or another friend who was

23 staying there or something, said that Jeff had

24 just called to my parents' home, and said that

25 Fleet was totally off the deep end, had like

0077

1 gotten my brother-in-law and my brother-in-law

2 is -- you think my husband is docile, my

3 brother-in-law is, you know, very docile. Non-

4 confrontational. So Fleet got hold of Jeff's

5 collar, you know, like this, in his face, you

6 know, being very confrontational.

7 TOM HANEY: Is built --

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Sorry?

9 TOM HANEY: Is Fleet a pretty good

10 size?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he's a large

12 man. And anyway, Jeff had called and said to my

13 dad, they are on their way to your house. Do

14 you have a gun? And I mean for Jeff Ramsey to

15 say something like this in pretty wild. So I

16 just remember, you know, somebody scooping me up

17 and Burke up and my mom and all this and we went

18 downstairs to our basement where my mother had

19 set up some temporary beds and then like, you

20 know, like thrown on the beds, like "don't

21 anybody say anything" and you know, John and my

22 dad were going to try to calm them down or

23 something. You know. Just --

24 TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you mean

25 again, what did--

0078

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, Jeff

2 was saying that Fleet is just crazy. He is

3 crazy, he is coming over there, I don't know

4 what's happened. You know, he's off his rocker.

5 TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue

6 though? I mean here your good friends--

7 PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know,

8 because I wasn't -- wasn't having this --

9 TOM HANEY: The conversation?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing

11 this thirdhand.

12 TOM HANEY: Okay.

13 PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is there

14 was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and

15 Priscilla were going nutso and they were coming

16 over and somebody just crazy, he is crazy, he is

17 coming over there, I don't know what's happened.

18 You know, he's off his rocker.

19 TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue

20 though? I mean here your good friend's--

21 PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know

22 because I wasn't, I wasn't having this

23 conversation.

24 TOM HANEY: The conversation?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing

0079

1 this thirdhand.

2 TOM HANEY: Okay.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is this

4 was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and

5 Priscilla are going nutso and they are coming

6 over and everybody is afraid of them and

7 da-de-da-de-da.

8 TOM HANEY: So do they come over?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: They came over. I

10 do not see them, but John I think called down or

11 something, Jeff Ramsey said he did not want them

12 staying with them. I think John Ramsey and my

13 dad somehow got them to stay in a hotel or

14 something. There in Montreux (phonetic).

15 Then my dad said, you know, I don't

16 know what day this was, all these days were

17 running together. But then my father said that

18 Priscilla called, I guess they were on their way

19 back to Colorado, she called, my dad had just

20 reamed him out, said that she didn't like what

21 she saw in Atlanta one bit. She thought that

22 everything -- that all our friends were, you

23 know, hoity-toity, rich snobs and blah, blah,

24 blah. I mean, just like crazy things.

25 I mean, you know, here we are

0080

1 mourning the death of this child, for crying out

2 loud, and she goes off on this cultural

3 ventilation or something. You know, it just

4 didn't, it didn't make sense. And then so I

5 mean my dad -- (INAUDIBLE) -- so way that was

6 kind of a little incident.

7 TOM HANEY: Makes sense.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: And then so I mean

9 my dad is one (INAUDIBLE) so anyway, that was

10 kind of a little incident. But I think some

11 other things happened that I wasn't really privy

12 to. I think John may be more aware of.

13 But then the other time that was

14 really frightening to me is, we had come back to

15 Colorado and John and I were in Father Rol's

16 office, in the church, and my dad was sitting

17 out in the little waiting area. And Father Rol

18 and John and I were praying, and Fleet White

19 burst into the door, burst into the office.

20 And he is just, his eyes are just

21 wild. And you know, I kind of did this number,

22 and he got down on his knees, and looked like --

23 and had a business card in his hand, and he was

24 leaning over to my husband saying, "you know

25 what this is, John, you know what this means,

0081

1 John, you know what I am going to have to do

2 with this, John, I am going to have to handle

3 this my way, John."

4 I mean he was just on and on and

5 on. And I said, "Fleet, Fleet, what is it?"

6 And he handed me this business card

7 and it was a business card from some journalist

8 or something, and it had a note on the back.

9 And it said, I don't know exactly word for word,

10 but something to the effect of, you know, Mr.

11 White, there has been some question as to

12 whether it was you or John Ramsey who removed

13 the tape from JonBenet's mouth. You know. And

14 about the sequence of the basement discovery.

15 Because we had talking about this.

16 Well, he said they are after me and

17 my family now, John, I am going to have to

18 handle -- and he was just like a maniac and

19 Father Rol said to calm down and you know, he

20 said, "I am going to handle it my way, John, my

21 way, John and you know, Father Rol was just

22 trying to get them to calm down. "It's okay

23 Fleet," you know, "what do you mean by your

24 way?" You know, calm down. You know, it will

25 be okay.

0082

1 So that was just, that just shook

2 me, you know, and then there are just -- you

3 know, may or may not know just kind of

4 subsequent things, like instead of going to the

5 governor in Colorado they went to the governor

6 of Colorado and asked that Hunter be taken off

7 the case or that he was doing a bad job or

8 something, and I mean this is like a year later,

9 you know, and I mean they are still just -- so,

10 I mean, you know, I am trying to say okay,

11 everybody was traumatized, you know. Try to put

12 my shoe on the other foot.

13 If had been Daphne, if I had been

14 there, what would I have done, you know. But I

15 mean, my God, you know, it's my child, and I

16 have been trying to get my family back to some

17 semblance of normalcy. My child in the school

18 and friends and you know. And I don't read

19 newspapers, and I can't watch television,

20 because it you know, value else me and surfaces

21 it all over again. You know, and then to hear

22 these people who are not even related and they

23 are going to the governor and trying to you know

24 I mean just kind of weird to me.

25 Maybe I am reading things into it.

0083

1 I don't know. I can't imagine, you know, that

2 anybody that has children -- you know, when you

3 have children you know what a precious life that

4 is, and you know what a -- you know, I can't

5 imagine that you can do that to another child.

6 I can't -- I can't bring myself to think that

7 they would have actually done this. But

8 somebody did it. You know.

9 And we have been told that it's a

10 lady that knew us, knew we were leaving, knew we

11 were there. The dog wasn't there, knew we

12 didn't use the alarm, you know, so --

13 TOM HANEY: And these were all

14 things that the Whites would have known?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

16 TOM HANEY: So do you suspect

17 Fleet?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, you know, I

19 just -- you know, I -- I guess in a way I look

20 at everybody as a suspect. And with this

21 erratic behavior it sounds pretty freaky to me.

22 Last night we were reading through

23 some paperwork or something, and I don't

24 remember whether somebody interviewed Fleet and

25 it was something that was like, wait a minute,

0084

1 that's (INAUDIBLE) I mean to -- but he knew --

2 he knew so much detail about the letter. It's

3 just something about, and this has been

4 somebody, I forget who -- I am rambling.

5 Somebody had interviewed Fleet and

6 then had written up a report about their

7 findings and that he seemed to know almost word

8 for word the ransom letter and he commented

9 about how the structure of it was so well tied

10 together. I mean, I have read the ransom

11 letter, I couldn't tell you what the structure

12 was, you know. He seemed like really interested

13 or something. It seemed unusual to me.

14 So I mean, it would be a horrible

15 blow if I do find out that it was somebody that

16 was that close to us. But it was somebody and

17 there is, I guess -- I guess could be anybody.

18 TOM HANEY: What is your current

19 relationship with the Whites?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: We have not -- we

21 have not spoken.

22 TOM HANEY: When is the last time?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well I -- when we

24 left town, right in the mild the incident, I

25 remember we were staying with the Stines, Glen

0085

1 and Susan Stine, Fleet White went in to Glen

2 Stine's office at the university, and leaned

3 across the table, demanding to let the Stines

4 see us. And Glen Stine said Fleet, you know,

5 settle down.

6 TOM HANEY: Fleet wanted the Stines

7 to let them (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: He was just saying

9 that the Stines were keeping us away from them,

10 which wasn't the case. But he was going there,

11 he went into the vice president of the

12 university and (INAUDIBLE). You know what,

13 irrational behavior.

14 TOM HANEY: Is this--

15 PATSY RAMSEY: So anyway, before I

16 left town, (INAUDIBLE) before I left town I took

17 a little teddy bear up to this kid and left a

18 note, little teddy bear, and left a note, opened

19 a card that said you know, we are leaving town

20 or something, JonBenet loves you and whatever.

21 I don't know.

22 And then subsequently I had written

23 a couple of notes, I found a picture of Daphne,

24 that I sent to her and I think I wrote a note,

25 there was a story, one of the tabloids had their

0086

1 photographs, said Ramseys accusing best friends

2 or something, please don't believe these

3 horrible stories, you know.

4 But you know, not (INAUDIBLE) the

5 next thing I heard that they were down in the

6 governor's office (INAUDIBLE).

7 TOM HANEY: This behavior that you

8 have talked about with Fleet pounded on the desk

9 and things, is that out of character for him or

10 is he kind of like that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean as far as I

12 ever saw, because he was, he didn't -- I don't

13 know exactly what he did for a living. He was

14 not working a nine to five job. You know, I

15 think he was in California, had been in the oil

16 kind of business, so he said, but so he was

17 around the house a lot. He took the kids to

18 school. He dressed them. He -- we called him

19 affectionately Mr. Mom and he just said he was

20 taking a couple of years kind of hiatus to

21 figure it out and get something else going.

22 (The video portion of the tape

23 stopped). So he was always just very loving and

24 he was kind of like a lovable giant kind of, you

25 know, big guy, but just very tender and very --

0087

1 sweet guy, you know. So this, you know,

2 especially that time when he was in Father Rol's

3 office and his eyes were just crazed. I mean I

4 was just staying there going "oh, my God, what

5 has gotten into him."

6 So yes, yes. You know. There is a

7 flicker, you know.

8 TOM HANEY: Prior to the death,

9 what was Fleet's behavior like, especially

10 regarding JonBenet?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: He, I mean, adored

12 our children. You know. They played together a

13 lot. They were at our house, you know, a lot.

14 My children were at their house playing. They

15 had been up to the lake with us, a number of

16 times, for two, three weeks at a time.

17 (The video portion resumed.)

18 PATSY RAMSEY: You know we were I

19 mean --

20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything in

21 this prior behavior that looking back now seems

22 unusual?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Priscilla was

24 never crazy about me doing this whole pageant

25 with JonBenet, she thought that was just totally

0088

1 unnecessary, because she said you know, it's

2 just not the thing to do. Well, you know, I had

3 grown up doing it, I enjoyed it, I had a lot of

4 friends who had done it. I had very good

5 experience with it. So that's what I brought to

6 the table. My daughter was a performer, she was

7 beautiful, she was outgoing, and flourished in

8 that type of an environment. Daphne was not.

9 You know.

10 So Priscilla would oftentimes say

11 to me, you know, you just, you shouldn't do

12 that, you know, that's not a good thing to

13 happen.

14 I thought, you know, well, you

15 raise your children the way you do and we don't

16 all raise our children the same. So you know,

17 kind of looking back at that and think, you

18 know, did that really get to her or something.

19 I don't know (INAUDIBLE).

20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything else

21 in either of -- either's behavior prior to the

22 death that you like you said looking back now,

23 outside of the pageant thing?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean John said

25 -- he and Fleet sailed together, and they were

0089

1 taking -- and Fleet has been sailing for years.

2 I mean he sailed big yachts in the Pacific Ocean

3 and da-de-da-de-da, and so John was getting

4 ready for this Mackinaw Island race and he Fleet

5 were going to move our sailboat from Charlevoix

6 to wherever this race was going to be held, I

7 forget where, Chicago or something.

8 Well, they were in the moves and

9 were pulling into a harbor someplace, and had a

10 big wave and somehow the ropes got spun up in

11 the propeller, kicked off the engine, and they

12 were heading for the --

13 TOM HANEY: Dock?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: The wall. The ocean

15 wall or whatever they call that wall.

16 TRIP DeMUTH: The shore?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: The wall, whatever.

18 And he said Fleet -- and Fleet was supposed to

19 be the experienced yachtsman, you know, he said

20 Fleet just panicked, you know. I mean he was

21 just, John said he was really surprised because

22 I mean here is John who is certainly the layman,

23 and he immediately was trying to, you know, turn

24 the thing backwards and trying to get it out or

25 some, you know, but Fleet, he said Fleet just

0090

1 totally dropped his cool.

2 And long story short, somebody in

3 the yacht club saw them in trouble and the Coast

4 Guard came out and pulled them away from the

5 wall just in time. But John, kind of John's

6 first tip-off that, you know, he wasn't a -- as

7 capable under fire as maybe he would have

8 thought.

9 TOM HANEY: Did they -- did they

10 have words that day over it or was there some

11 problem or just like--

12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. You know, I

13 mean this was one of those stories you talk

14 about over a beer, you know (INAUDIBLE).

15 TOM HANEY: But nothing else?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: Anything else about the

18 Whites?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Just I mean, we

20 just, their children were virtually the same

21 age. I just thought we will be life-long

22 friends, because, you know, I enjoyed her, John

23 enjoyed him, the kids had each other. I mean it

24 was just a perfect -- we liked to do a lot of

25 the same things, they seemed to have

0091

1 discretionary income to be able to go places

2 although in that respect John pointed out that

3 all the yacht races and all that stuff was

4 always on our tab. I didn't really pay

5 attention to who was paying for what, but we

6 would pay for the crew and everybody.

7 I always got the impression that

8 Fleet and Priscilla had either family money or

9 something like that. You know. But John said

10 when it came down to actually, you know,

11 splitting it or splitting the hotel or

12 something, that never really happened. So --

13 TRIP DeMUTH: How long did you know

14 them?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: We met the summer I

16 came back from the lake the first time, so that

17 would have been like September-ish of '94.

18 TRIP DeMUTH: You called Fleet Mr.

19 Mom. Why do you do that?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Just because he was

21 at home all the time. He took the kids to

22 school and he went to the classroom and he, I

23 mean -- she called him her live-in. Their

24 live-in nanny.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did Priscilla work?

0092

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.

2 TRIP DeMUTH: So was she home most

3 of the time also?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

5 TRIP DeMUTH: Who would supervise

6 JonBenet and Burke when they would go over to

7 the Whites' house?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Both of them.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: Were there any

10 excursions or outings that Fleet White took your

11 children on as well as his children?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure there

13 probably were.

14 TRIP DeMUTH: Any that you recall?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Not right off the

16 top of my head. I mean we went biking, out on

17 the bike trails once all together, all of us.

18 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Fleet ever

19 baby-sit the children?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I knew one

21 time in particular John, we were all up at the

22 lake, up at Charles Lake and John had to fly to

23 New York to do some business, New York City, and

24 Melinda was up there and the Whites. And

25 Priscilla said -- she said, "John is going to

0093

1 New York, let's go shopping for the day."

2 And I said, "who would keep the

3 kids?"

4 She said, "oh, Fleet can take care

5 of the kids."

6 I said, "oh, you're kidding."

7 She said, "no, come on, it would be

8 really fun, let's just go over there for the

9 day." I said okay.

10 So Melinda and Priscilla and myself

11 and Mike Archuleta and John flew to Manhattan,

12 John did his business there, and Priscilla and

13 Melinda and I and Mike Archuleta shopped around

14 for the day and then we flew back to Charles

15 Lake. When I got home, the house was a

16 disaster.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: How many times, how

18 often would Fleet be the baby-sitter for the

19 kids, that you can remember? Can you give me

20 any idea about that? Seldom, never, often?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I would say

22 when if my kids were over there, it would not be

23 unusual that he would be the baby-sitter,

24 because she might go running around or whatever

25 and he would sit or vice versa.

0094

1 TRIP DeMUTH: And how often were

2 your kids over at his home?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe once a week.

4 We hadn't seen them a whole lot that fall,

5 because our children were going to different

6 schools. And that was a little sticking point

7 with Priscilla.

8 TRIP DeMUTH: How did JonBenet feel

9 about Fleet? Did she ever indicate anything?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TRIP DeMUTH: Seemed fine?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Thanks, Tom.

14 TOM HANEY: When is the last time

15 you had any contact, personal contact? You said

16 you went to the fair but--

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that

18 episode in Father Rol's office.

19 TOM HANEY: Can you pin that down,

20 approximately when that would have been?

21 Ballpark figure.

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, early '97,

23 February-ish, probably.

24 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question.

25 If JonBenet was bothered by someone, do you

0095

1 think she would communicate that to you, or was

2 she a little more stoic about it, would keep it

3 to herself?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: I think she would

5 have told because we had talked about all the

6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to

7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch

8 those areas because, you know, and different

9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,

10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not

11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but

12 JonBenet's, you know.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have any

14 difficulty approaching you and talking to you

15 about maybe other children at school she was

16 having difficulty with, would she share those

17 kind of points?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

19 TRIP DeMUTH: Which one is it, she

20 would share?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not have

22 difficulty. She will tell me everything.

23 TOM HANEY: While we are on the

24 subject, tell us a little bit about what you

25 did, not little, tell us what you told JonBenet

0096

1 and when and how did this start, about what

2 belongs to her and what's off limits and what

3 she would do?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the

5 first time I started thinking about, you know,

6 you think kids are oh, to young to start talking

7 about that, but Pinky Barber, a friend of mine,

8 had been to a some kind of seminar on child

9 safety or something. And she wanted me to go

10 along and for some reason I couldn't attend with

11 her, so I discussed with her what -- you know,

12 she said well, that they spent some time talking

13 about how to talk with your children about

14 strangers and all that kind of stuff. And she

15 said I talked to my girls about it.

16 And I said you did? What did you

17 say? She said that's when this bathing suit

18 thing came up. She said I just tell them that

19 nobody touches you where the bathing suit

20 touches.

21 And I thought that was a really

22 great way to approach that, because, you know,

23 those little ones are -- there is boundaries,

24 you know. So JonBenet and I, I don't know,

25 maybe at bath time, maybe when I was putting on

0097

1 her bathing suit or something. You know, these

2 are JonBenet's private parts here, you know,

3 where the bathing suit touches and nobody ever

4 touches your private parts except mommy and

5 Dr. Buff with mommy in the room.

6 TOM HANEY: About when would you

7 have started conveying this idea to her?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when she

9 was four.

10 TOM HANEY: And did you rehash it

11 with her, did you talk about it occasionally?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was

13 not a big, you know, deal. I mean Burke was

14 growing up, you know, becoming a little more

15 modest and so we would say, you know, you know,

16 that's Burke's bathroom. If he is in the

17 bathroom, you don't just barge in on somebody in

18 the bathroom. You knock and, you know. Those

19 kind of family kind of situations.

20 TOM HANEY: But her private parts,

21 as you were describing it, this wasn't I assume

22 a one-time conversation?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I

24 probably mentioned it more than once. It wasn't

25 something I preached on every day, you know. It

0098

1 was kind of a --

2 TOM HANEY: Did she raise any

3 questions about that at the time or any time

4 since?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

6 TOM HANEY: It was pretty clear to

7 her?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

9 TOM HANEY: And your rules were you

10 or Dr. Buff, if you were in the room?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.

12 TOM HANEY: Let's now get to some

13 of these names that I talked about earlier.

14 First of all, I would like to show you a

15 photograph, and I just wrote up -- part of it's

16 covered up, so I just put an A because that's

17 the only way I can identify it at this point.

18 Just see if you can identify this person.

19 (Handing.)

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --

21 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall

22 seeing this person anywhere any time?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: (NO AUDIBLE ANSWER).

24 TRIP DeMUTH: That's a photograph

25 of Manfred Thornton.

0099

1 TOM HANEY: Let me just go through

2 these names, if you can tell me anything at all

3 about 'em. First of all, a Dale Flint?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: That rings a bell, I

5 think.

6 TOM HANEY: If you think of

7 something, we can come back to that. How about

8 a Daniel Melifit (Phonetic). Some of these I

9 may not pronounce exactly right. But Chris

10 Wolf?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Chris Wolf I have

12 heard his name.

13 TOM HANEY: And who is Chris Wolf?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Chris Wolf, I have

15 not met Chris Wolf, but his name came up as a

16 lead, I think on the tip of my or something,

17 someone checked on him, and sent me a picture of

18 him I think and I didn't recognize him.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know who

20 sent you the photograph?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Ellis probably. Or

22 Jennifer, yes.

23 TOM HANEY: Jennifer--

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Getty (phonetic),

25 works with --

0100

1 TOM HANEY: How about a Rob

2 Clemens.

3 VOICE: Sorry, so no

4 knowledge of Chris Wolf prior to --

5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

6 TOM HANEY: And when you saw the

7 photo of him you didn't recognize him, never

8 seen him?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

10 TOM HANEY: Rob Clemens?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head). New

12 York accent. (INAUDIBLE) his name of from --

13 (INAUDIBLE). I wouldn't know him if he walked

14 through the door, but the name rings a bell.

15 TOM HANEY: How about Brian

16 Gilmore?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Nope.

18 TOM HANEY: And Edwin Danover?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

20 TOM HANEY: Jack Logan?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

22 TOM HANEY: Otto Riggata

23 (phonetic)?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

25 TOM HANEY: Richard Lichtenhill

0101

1 (phonetic)?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

3 TOM HANEY: A Michael Rightson

4 (phonetic)?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).

6 TOM HANEY: Ron Bloom?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).

8 TOM HANEY: Okay. Gary Oliva?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).

10 TOM HANEY: A Rodney Wilson?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

12 TOM HANEY: Frank Harrell?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)

14 Harold or --

15 TOM HANEY: Harrell, H-A-R-R-E-L-L.

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

17 TOM HANEY: Okay. An Isaac

18 Webster?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

20 TOM HANEY: All right, Jeffrey

21 Simpson?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

23 TOM HANEY: A Keith Brown?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

25 TOM HANEY: A Thomas Silvie

0102

1 (phonetic)?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head).

3 TOM HANEY: A Ray Fitzgerald?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Ray Fitzgerald --

5 Ray Fitzgerald is my (INAUDIBLE). Irving

6 Fitzgerald.

7 TOM HANEY: Is there a --

8 TRIP DeMUTH: Could you tell me how

9 you know him?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: He is the

11 master up at AIH, the cancer institute

12 over at Bethesda.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: If he was going

14 to call you, where would he call you,

15 which home would he call you at?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he's

17 recently written me a letter in Atlanta.

18 TRIP DeMUTH: At the time of

19 the--

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, then he

21 would have called Boulder.

22 TRIP DeMUTH: Did he have

23 your Charlevoix home number?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't

25 think he would. Oh, perhaps, because it's

0103

1 probably on record there. In the office.

2 TRIP DeMUTH: He left a

3 message on your Charlevoix answering

4 machine?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, he did? Okay.

6 TRIP DeMUTH: So that's why we

7 asked about him.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

9 TOM HANEY: Michael Hilga

10 (phonetic)?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response).

12 TOM HANEY: Donald Bartlett?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Donald Bartlett?

14 There is a Bartlett Interiors in Charlevoix.

15 Did Charlevoix call -- (INAUDIBLE).

16 TOM HANEY: A Gilberto Rubio?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: That I believe is

18 the guy that made the gingerbread house.

19 TOM HANEY: What contact did you

20 have with him?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: He was a friend of

22 Bob Wallace's, Bob Wallace was a young man who

23 was washing my (INAUDIBLE), and subsequently, he

24 did a lot of floral arrangement for preparation

25 for the Christmas open house in '94. And

0104

1 Gilberto Rubio was a pastry chef in Denver, so

2 they told me. A friend of Bob's. And he

3 photographed the house and then built a

4 gingerbread house to look like our house.

5 TOM HANEY: And do you know who he

6 worked for in Denver?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

8 TOM HANEY: Did you ever have him

9 inside the house?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

11 TOM HANEY: More than one occasion

12 or--

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Um I -- I think just

14 one occasion he came in, delivered the house,

15 and you know, touched it up, the frosting and

16 little -- (INAUDIBLE).

17 TOM HANEY: So he was just in the

18 one time?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

20 TOM HANEY: He had been there prior

21 to November?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).

23 TOM HANEY: A Brian Perry?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: (Whispering under

25 breath).

0105

1 TOM HANEY: He has a wife if this

2 helps, Amy Rook?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes, Brian Perry

4 is the church sexton. He is the like a

5 custodian, uh-hum.

6 TOM HANEY: Had he ever been in the

7 house?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

9 TOM HANEY: Ever have any contact

10 with him?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at the church,

12 yeah. Um, um, yeah, he would help put up Easter

13 decorations and things like that. And I had

14 talked with Father Rol about having the church

15 cleaned periodically, professionally, because I

16 didn't feel like Brian was cutting the mustard

17 very well, and -- that job there. You know, I

18 was kind of talking with the junior warden about

19 that.

20 I mean, I went over there one time

21 with a couple of cleaning ladies and polished

22 the sanctuary prior to Easter service, because

23 it was just absolutely filthy dirty. And had

24 the front doors painted at my expense. Brian

25 assisted in that. In choosing the color and all

0106

1 that. You know, took a hose to -- I mean a lot

2 of people would sleep on the sidewalks around

3 there and urinate, and everything was vile. And

4 Easter Sunday was coming up and it just smelled

5 horrible and he went over there with a hose,

6 hosed the whole building down, the whole front

7 area down.

8 TOM HANEY: So did you kind of--

9 PATSY RAMSEY: I may have ruffled

10 his feathers a little bit.

11 TOM HANEY: Did he lose his job

12 over that?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no.

14 TOM HANEY: Or grab crack the whip

15 on him?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.

17 I was given to understand that Mimi and Brian

18 were a fixture of the church, had been, always

19 will be and just drop it. There was some

20 discussion, we were meeting, I was on the

21 committee to talk about enlarging object -- our

22 population was growing. And the number of

23 children that we were teaching Sunday school to,

24 young families were coming in, so Father Rol

25 asked me to join the committee that he put

0107

1 together to consider what might be done, and one

2 question that always would come up w