Gfire Profile Joined March 2011 United States 1699 Posts Last Edited: 2012-10-31 18:38:30 #1 Battle.net Thread



While this comes across as a discussion about hellions which is greatly impacted by balance and thus rather complicated, as little changes affect a lot of things in the game, I want to emphasize the use of the damage point for microability for units as a concept as well.



I don’t like battle hellions (or hellbats) as a unit. I think that, as both a player and a spectator, I’m disappointed when someone uses battle hellions instead of regular ones. They’re just less cool. Less micro, less interesting attack style, and I have other problems with them as well.



This is what the unit seems like to me:



Pros:

Gets counted as a “new unit” for the expansion (sort of only half a new unit)



Is stronger against some things than the regular hellion (for balance or variety purposes, listed as a pro with the assumption that it is needed and hots will be balanced around its strengths.)



Cons:

Is not particularly new or original (firebat?)



Is inconsistent in that it is a bio unit from the factory, and one that works with bio and, in particular, medivacs but benefits from mech upgrades.



Is inconsistent in that it is a bio unit that transforms from a non-bio unit



Is inconsistent in that it has a different amount of HP from the hellion (transforming into a unit with more HP and then back into a unit with less, while doing what, scaling the current HP? Ugh, what a mess.)



Less microable than the hellion and not particularly microable at all



More boring splash attack style than the hellion, I think, with less thought from the player going into positioning, etc.





Considering these points, I thought of a way to use a somewhat under-appreciated aspect of the way unit attacks work to show how a regular hellion might be able to do the things the battle hellion was designed for, eliminated the need for the unit entirely. It’s just an idea, and a theory that this sort of change would actually a reasonable difference, but I think these subtle values in the unit design could make a bigger difference than we might think.



The “Damage Point”



The Damage Point is a value that a weapon has a specific amount of time, a delay before a shot is fired, which is independent of the attack cooldown we usually pay attention to.



For a unit that must be holding still to shoot, this timer, I believe, begins counting when the unit stops. The weapon cannot fire until the timer is complete. This means that even if the attack cooldown is complete before you stop, there will still be some delay after stopping before shooting.



Let’s look at how changes to this value can affect gameplay. This delay means that it order to shoot as soon as possible, you need to stop your unit a period of time before the cooldown is actually finished, so that the cooldown and Damage Point timers both end at about the same time. This does two things:

It reduces the distance the unit can move between shots (the bigger the delay, the worse the unit is at stutter-stepping basically)





In terms of APM-management, a player use a move-and-shoot-move-and-shoot rhythm will have to wait for this period of time after stopping their unit before moving again. This period, for most units at least, is so short it’s not really possible for a human to do something else during that time, which means that the longer the Damage Point is, the longer the player is tied up for these actions. This introduces a cap to a player’s APM, which gets lower the larger the Damage Point value is.



Let’s look at a bit of math to show the effects. The default damage point is .167 seconds.



The unit will need to stop .167 seconds sooner than it would with no delay. Standard unit move speed is 2.25 squares per second, so that’s 0.3758 lost in terms of distance for that unit. It’s a pretty significant amount, which could sometimes mean the difference of a shot gotten off or not from an enemy. The actual attack cooldown can be taken into account to see how much distance is lost per second.



When it comes to APM caps, a .167 second delay means that, when performing this type of micro, every two actions are accompanied by a .167 second amount of time. So, if a player spends absolutely no time actually pressing the buttons, you can have a maximum of 2 actions per .167 seconds, or .0835 seconds per action, which is just under 12 actions per second, or 718.56 APM. Considering these values are in SC2 game-time and not real-time, that’s pretty fast so I don’t know that there’s a definite APM-cap issue with a .167 delay, but for a unit with a delay high enough there might be.



Now that we’ve looked at the effects of these values let’s take a look at some specific units.



Marine: speed 2.25 (3.375 stimmed), attack period .8608, damage point .05

- Distance lost .1125 (.1688 stimmed,) distance lost per second 0.1307 (.1961 stimmed)

- APM cap: 2400



Marauder: speed 2.25 (3.375 stimmed), attack period 1.5, damage point 0

- Distance lost none, distance lost per second none

- APM cap: none



Stalker: Speed 2.953, attack period 1.44, damage point .167

- Distance lost 0.4932, distance lost per second 0.3425

- APM cap: 718.56



Hellion: Speed 4.25, attack period 2.5, damage point .25

- Distance lost 1.0625, distance lost per second 0.425

- APM cap: 480



You can see here that every time a hellion stops to shoot it loses over 1 square in distance… When a chargelot’s chasing you, I think that’s an extremely long distance which would have a huge effect on the outcome of a battle. It’s also one where the APM cap for microing it is fairly low, in a range I think progamers probably reach frequently during battles.



I think Marines and Marauders feel so much more microable and good at kiting compared to most units, and Hellions feel particularly bad. I think this value, the damage point, is partially to blame. If the damage point for the hellion was reduced, would that mean that chargelots aren’t so much of a problem? Would it cause any imbalances, against zergling-baneling maybe? But with queens as they are, and roaches still in the game, I’m not too worried about hellions in TvZ, and the buff in TvP would be welcome.



If a change like this could work, I think it would remove any need for the battle hellion while increasing the amount of micro in the game. Personally, I’d love to see the battle hellion cut in favor of a new unit, some other small mech walker in the style of a goliath, warhound or battle hellion, but with a more interesting use, more micro, etc. I don’t have any specific suggestions in that area, but I think players would be more excited with a unit that didn't have a flame-thrower attack just like the hellion.



“What about low-level players who don’t micro?”



Then how do they play TvP with bio? If they can play bio without micro surely they could use hellions without micro if they wanted. At that level of play, there are tons of options for a player to win games; they don’t need a unit “counter” which involves no micro. If a low-level player wants to play mech vs P, that can work even in WoL.



Best I can figure, everyone complaining that you have to go bio in every TvP is probably doing a good deal of kiting with their bio.



Conclusion

Hellions suck at move-and-shoot micro because of their high damage point. There are some other units which are also like this.



Battle Hellions or Hellbats might not be necessary if the Hellion was a bit better against zealots and zerglings.





(Aside from the hellion matters, I’d love if the designers took another look at the damage point values and some of the other values now with some of the things we’ve learned throughout SC2 in mind. I think some of them can be adjusted to allow for more micro for a lot of units. Maybe it’s not a priority compared to unit design things, but I feel like it might have been overlooked to some extent for WoL with a lot of units left seeming unfinished, and I hope it gets revisited in HotS.) I don’t like battle hellions (or hellbats) as a unit. I think that, as both a player and a spectator, I’m disappointed when someone uses battle hellions instead of regular ones. They’re just less cool. Less micro, less interesting attack style, and I have other problems with them as well.This is what the unit seems like to me:Considering these points, I thought of a way to use a somewhat under-appreciated aspect of the way unit attacks work to show how a regular hellion might be able to do the things the battle hellion was designed for, eliminated the need for the unit entirely. It’s just an idea, and a theory that this sort of change would actually a reasonable difference, but I think these subtle values in the unit design could make a bigger difference than we might think.The Damage Point is a value that a weapon has a specific amount of time, a delay before a shot is fired, which is independent of the attack cooldown we usually pay attention to.For a unit that must be holding still to shoot, this timer, I believe, begins counting when the unit stops. The weapon cannot fire until the timer is complete. This means that even if the attack cooldown is complete before you stop, there will still be some delay after stopping before shooting.Let’s look at how changes to this value can affect gameplay. This delay means that it order to shoot as soon as possible, you need to stop your unit a period of time before the cooldown is actually finished, so that the cooldown and Damage Point timers both end at about the same time. This does two things:Let’s look at a bit of math to show the effects. The default damage point is .167 seconds.The unit will need to stop .167 seconds sooner than it would with no delay. Standard unit move speed is 2.25 squares per second, so that’s 0.3758 lost in terms of distance for that unit. It’s a pretty significant amount, which could sometimes mean the difference of a shot gotten off or not from an enemy. The actual attack cooldown can be taken into account to see how much distance is lost per second.When it comes to APM caps, a .167 second delay means that, when performing this type of micro, every two actions are accompanied by a .167 second amount of time. So, if a player spends absolutely no time actually pressing the buttons, you can have a maximum of 2 actions per .167 seconds, or .0835 seconds per action, which is just under 12 actions per second, or 718.56 APM. Considering these values are in SC2 game-time and not real-time, that’s pretty fast so I don’t know that there’s a definite APM-cap issue with a .167 delay, but for a unit with a delay high enough there might be.Now that we’ve looked at the effects of these values let’s take a look at some specific units.speed 2.25 (3.375 stimmed), attack period .8608, damage point .05- Distance lost .1125 (.1688 stimmed,) distance lost per second 0.1307 (.1961 stimmed)- APM cap: 2400speed 2.25 (3.375 stimmed), attack period 1.5, damage point 0- Distance lost none, distance lost per second none- APM cap: noneSpeed 2.953, attack period 1.44, damage point .167- Distance lost 0.4932, distance lost per second 0.3425- APM cap: 718.56Speed 4.25, attack period 2.5, damage point .25- Distance lost 1.0625, distance lost per second 0.425- APM cap: 480You can see here that every time a hellion stops to shoot it loses over 1 square in distance… When a chargelot’s chasing you, I think that’s an extremely long distance which would have a huge effect on the outcome of a battle. It’s also one where the APM cap for microing it is fairly low, in a range I think progamers probably reach frequently during battles.I think Marines and Marauders feel so much more microable and good at kiting compared to most units, and Hellions feel particularly bad. I think this value, the damage point, is partially to blame. If the damage point for the hellion was reduced, would that mean that chargelots aren’t so much of a problem? Would it cause any imbalances, against zergling-baneling maybe? But with queens as they are, and roaches still in the game, I’m not too worried about hellions in TvZ, and the buff in TvP would be welcome.If a change like this could work, I think it would remove any need for the battle hellion while increasing the amount of micro in the game. Personally, I’d love to see the battle hellion cut in favor of a new unit, some other small mech walker in the style of a goliath, warhound or battle hellion, but with a more interesting use, more micro, etc. I don’t have any specific suggestions in that area, but I think players would be more excited with a unit that didn't have a flame-thrower attack just like the hellion.Then how do they play TvP with bio? If they can play bio without micro surely they could use hellions without micro if they wanted. At that level of play, there are tons of options for a player to win games; they don’t need a unit “counter” which involves no micro. If a low-level player wants to play mech vs P, that can work even in WoL.Best I can figure, everyone complaining that you have to go bio in every TvP is probably doing a good deal of kiting with their bio. all's fair in love and melodies

Decendos Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 1325 Posts #2 nice work you put in there. but i think the hellbat is not about being an insane micro unit but more a "kill zealots" unit to make mech viable TvP. and keep in mind: you can always transform it into the fast and more microable helion.



making them bio is retarded though and i still havent heard any reason from blizzard to do so ^^

Grumbels Profile Blog Joined May 2009 Netherlands 6994 Posts Last Edited: 2012-10-31 18:27:36 #3 You should stop calling them battle hellions. I don't want another fiasco like the community insisting on prefacing the Seeker Missile with 'Hunter', even if it's nowhere in the description. It's hellbat now, it's a better name anyway.



In general I think units stopping while shooting is obnoxious and is wrong design for a competitive game; after all, if you're a professional player you're just waiting for the attack animation to be done and it's annoying. Even so, I don't think you can change the hellion in this way without making them a lot stronger versus zerglings. Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.

Gfire Profile Joined March 2011 United States 1699 Posts Last Edited: 2012-10-31 18:33:37 #4 On November 01 2012 03:25 Grumbels wrote:

In general I think units stopping while shooting is obnoxious and is wrong design for a competitive game; after all, if you're a professional player you're just waiting for the attack animation to be done and it's annoying. Even so, I don't think you can change the hellion in this way without making them a lot stronger versus zerglings.

Aren't Battle Hellions Hellbats a lot stronger versus zerglings anyway? Although I suppose they are doing things like making it higher tech than Hellions these days. I guess they could nerf Hellion damage vs light units before blue flame or something? Aren'tHellbats a lot stronger versus zerglings anyway? Although I suppose they are doing things like making it higher tech than Hellions these days. I guess they could nerf Hellion damage vs light units before blue flame or something? all's fair in love and melodies

People_0f_Color Profile Joined August 2010 177 Posts #5 If hellions didn't freeze before shooting, they would be even better at killing your worker line than even before.

Gfire Profile Joined March 2011 United States 1699 Posts #6 On November 01 2012 03:34 People_0f_Color wrote:

If hellions didn't freeze before shooting, they would be even better at killing your worker line than even before.

Yeah, I thought hellions roasting mineral lines died a long time ago... Sorry, I wrote most of this before the GSL finals. Yeah, I thought hellions roasting mineral lines died a long time ago... Sorry, I wrote most of this before the GSL finals. all's fair in love and melodies

Inf-badguy Profile Joined July 2003 Canada 171 Posts #7 The damage point that the hellion has is imposed as a direct trade off to having a line area of effect attack. If you reduce the damage point lag time such that the hellion is a more micro-able unit like the vulture, you'd have to compensate by reducing or even removing the splash effect altogether. At this point I'd say lets just call it a vulture and go about our day.



If anything I think strong hellion micro shows an understanding of this damage point and working within its limitations, as well as being able to exploit its area of effect. It takes more skill than implied to use effectively.

Gfire Profile Joined March 2011 United States 1699 Posts Last Edited: 2012-10-31 18:47:30 #8 On November 01 2012 03:36 Inf-badguy wrote:

The damage point that the hellion has is imposed as a direct trade off to having a line area of effect attack. If you reduce the damage point lag time such that the hellion is a more micro-able unit like the vulture, you'd have to compensate by reducing or even removing the splash effect altogether. At this point I'd say lets just call it a vulture and go about our day.



If anything I think strong hellion micro shows an understanding of this damage point and working within its limitations, as well as being able to exploit its area of effect. It takes more skill than implied to use effectively.

Right... While micro for a marine or marauder focuses on maximizing movement between shots, and increase the number of shots you get off before dying, the micro for a hellion focuses on hitting as many units as possible. I've gone through the history of SC2, since beta, knowing this and appreciating this type of Hellion micro. But.. would it be bad to allow the Hellion to do both? Or rather, either. The charge mechanic really makes their splash useless, and if your kiting and maximizing your distance from the enemy, you're minimizing splash damage so it might not be OP. It's like allowing you to switch between the roles of a hellion and hellbat, all within the same unit. Potentially broken but worth thinking about.



Unfortunately the hellion is based largely in anti-light damage. It seems like a unit where you will destroy any light units (with the exception of chargelots) without microing and lose to any non-light units even with great micro, and you have the ability to run away from those units. Because of this, it's cool style of micro is greatly underused. Right... While micro for a marine or marauder focuses on maximizing movement between shots, and increase the number of shots you get off before dying, the micro for a hellion focuses on hitting as many units as possible. I've gone through the history of SC2, since beta, knowing this and appreciating this type of Hellion micro. But.. would it be bad to allow the Hellion to do both? Or rather, either. The charge mechanic really makes their splash useless, and if your kiting and maximizing your distance from the enemy, you're minimizing splash damage so it might not be OP. It's like allowing you to switch between the roles of a hellion and hellbat, all within the same unit. Potentially broken but worth thinking about.Unfortunately the hellion is based largely in anti-light damage. It seems like a unit where you will destroy any light units (with the exception of chargelots) without microing and lose to any non-light units even with great micro, and you have the ability to run away from those units. Because of this, it's cool style of micro is greatly underused. all's fair in love and melodies

Unstable Profile Joined February 2010 Sweden 64 Posts #9 Con: it's a bio-unit that get's its upgrades from the mech-tree



This indirectly makes it a bad unit to 'splash' into a regular bio-composition as it will come late-game be increasingly weak against the opponents upgraded units. If it involves luck, skill and money ... Im probably already playing it.

Inf-badguy Profile Joined July 2003 Canada 171 Posts #10 On November 01 2012 03:45 Gfire wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 01 2012 03:36 Inf-badguy wrote:

The damage point that the hellion has is imposed as a direct trade off to having a line area of effect attack. If you reduce the damage point lag time such that the hellion is a more micro-able unit like the vulture, you'd have to compensate by reducing or even removing the splash effect altogether. At this point I'd say lets just call it a vulture and go about our day.



If anything I think strong hellion micro shows an understanding of this damage point and working within its limitations, as well as being able to exploit its area of effect. It takes more skill than implied to use effectively.

Right... While micro for a marine or marauder focuses on maximizing movement between shots, and increase the number of shots you get off before dying, the micro for a hellion focuses on hitting as many units as possible. I've gone through the history of SC2, since beta, knowing this and appreciating this type of Hellion micro. But.. would it be bad to allow the Hellion to do both? Or rather, either. The charge mechanic really makes their splash useless, and if your kiting and maximizing your distance from the enemy, you're minimizing splash damage so it might not be OP. It's like allowing you to switch between the roles of a hellion and hellbat, all within the same unit. Potentially broken but worth thinking about.



Unfortunately the hellion is based largely in anti-light damage. It seems like a unit where you will destroy any light units (with the exception of chargelots) without microing and lose to any non-light units even with great micro, and you have the ability to run away from those units. Because of this, it's cool style of micro is greatly underused. Right... While micro for a marine or marauder focuses on maximizing movement between shots, and increase the number of shots you get off before dying, the micro for a hellion focuses on hitting as many units as possible. I've gone through the history of SC2, since beta, knowing this and appreciating this type of Hellion micro. But.. would it be bad to allow the Hellion to do both? Or rather, either. The charge mechanic really makes their splash useless, and if your kiting and maximizing your distance from the enemy, you're minimizing splash damage so it might not be OP. It's like allowing you to switch between the roles of a hellion and hellbat, all within the same unit. Potentially broken but worth thinking about.Unfortunately the hellion is based largely in anti-light damage. It seems like a unit where you will destroy any light units (with the exception of chargelots) without microing and lose to any non-light units even with great micro, and you have the ability to run away from those units. Because of this, it's cool style of micro is greatly underused.



Well the argument as I understand it seems to be maximizing effectiveness against fast melee units like upgraded zerglings and zealots. By going into Hellbat mode, you do a good job negating both of those threats; zerglings are killed quickly regardless of surround, and hypothetically zealots which can still close the gap, will be subjected to significantly more splash damage in the cone the hellbat provides as opposed to the linear fire of the Hellion.



My concern is that if you lets say hypothetically, introduce a mechanic for the Hellbat where in its damage point lag is very low and it can be micro'd in a somewhat similar fashion to marines / marauders, aren't we just adding another component the terran bio ball that will be incredibly effective at the already strong 1 control group stutter step? Or again, we hypothetically keep the Hellbat with its cone and introduce a Hellion with a microable shot, you've got a unit with a bit too much flexibility.



I can definitely agree that there is a lot of contradictory conditions for the Hellion/Hellbat that currently make it a counter-intuitive unit (HP change, bio to mech) but if those can be streamlined (maybe just mech and a set HP in both forms), I think the unit will be in good shape.



I'm curious as to what you would envision a good balance between the two unit functions would be, incorporating the different damage point? Well the argument as I understand it seems to be maximizing effectiveness against fast melee units like upgraded zerglings and zealots. By going into Hellbat mode, you do a good job negating both of those threats; zerglings are killed quickly regardless of surround, and hypothetically zealots which can still close the gap, will be subjected to significantly more splash damage in the cone the hellbat provides as opposed to the linear fire of the Hellion.My concern is that if you lets say hypothetically, introduce a mechanic for the Hellbat where in its damage point lag is very low and it can be micro'd in a somewhat similar fashion to marines / marauders, aren't we just adding another component the terran bio ball that will be incredibly effective at the already strong 1 control group stutter step? Or again, we hypothetically keep the Hellbat with its cone and introduce a Hellion with a microable shot, you've got a unit with a bit too much flexibility.I can definitely agree that there is a lot of contradictory conditions for the Hellion/Hellbat that currently make it a counter-intuitive unit (HP change, bio to mech) but if those can be streamlined (maybe just mech and a set HP in both forms), I think the unit will be in good shape.I'm curious as to what you would envision a good balance between the two unit functions would be, incorporating the different damage point?

ZeromuS Profile Blog Joined October 2010 Canada 12923 Posts #11 On November 01 2012 06:03 Inf-badguy wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 01 2012 03:45 Gfire wrote:

On November 01 2012 03:36 Inf-badguy wrote:

The damage point that the hellion has is imposed as a direct trade off to having a line area of effect attack. If you reduce the damage point lag time such that the hellion is a more micro-able unit like the vulture, you'd have to compensate by reducing or even removing the splash effect altogether. At this point I'd say lets just call it a vulture and go about our day.



If anything I think strong hellion micro shows an understanding of this damage point and working within its limitations, as well as being able to exploit its area of effect. It takes more skill than implied to use effectively.

Right... While micro for a marine or marauder focuses on maximizing movement between shots, and increase the number of shots you get off before dying, the micro for a hellion focuses on hitting as many units as possible. I've gone through the history of SC2, since beta, knowing this and appreciating this type of Hellion micro. But.. would it be bad to allow the Hellion to do both? Or rather, either. The charge mechanic really makes their splash useless, and if your kiting and maximizing your distance from the enemy, you're minimizing splash damage so it might not be OP. It's like allowing you to switch between the roles of a hellion and hellbat, all within the same unit. Potentially broken but worth thinking about.



Unfortunately the hellion is based largely in anti-light damage. It seems like a unit where you will destroy any light units (with the exception of chargelots) without microing and lose to any non-light units even with great micro, and you have the ability to run away from those units. Because of this, it's cool style of micro is greatly underused. Right... While micro for a marine or marauder focuses on maximizing movement between shots, and increase the number of shots you get off before dying, the micro for a hellion focuses on hitting as many units as possible. I've gone through the history of SC2, since beta, knowing this and appreciating this type of Hellion micro. But.. would it be bad to allow the Hellion to do both? Or rather, either. The charge mechanic really makes their splash useless, and if your kiting and maximizing your distance from the enemy, you're minimizing splash damage so it might not be OP. It's like allowing you to switch between the roles of a hellion and hellbat, all within the same unit. Potentially broken but worth thinking about.Unfortunately the hellion is based largely in anti-light damage. It seems like a unit where you will destroy any light units (with the exception of chargelots) without microing and lose to any non-light units even with great micro, and you have the ability to run away from those units. Because of this, it's cool style of micro is greatly underused.



Well the argument as I understand it seems to be maximizing effectiveness against fast melee units like upgraded zerglings and zealots. By going into Hellbat mode, you do a good job negating both of those threats; zerglings are killed quickly regardless of surround, and hypothetically zealots which can still close the gap, will be subjected to significantly more splash damage in the cone the hellbat provides as opposed to the linear fire of the Hellion.



My concern is that if you lets say hypothetically, introduce a mechanic for the Hellbat where in its damage point lag is very low and it can be micro'd in a somewhat similar fashion to marines / marauders, aren't we just adding another component the terran bio ball that will be incredibly effective at the already strong 1 control group stutter step? Or again, we hypothetically keep the Hellbat with its cone and introduce a Hellion with a microable shot, you've got a unit with a bit too much flexibility.



I can definitely agree that there is a lot of contradictory conditions for the Hellion/Hellbat that currently make it a counter-intuitive unit (HP change, bio to mech) but if those can be streamlined (maybe just mech and a set HP in both forms), I think the unit will be in good shape.



I'm curious as to what you would envision a good balance between the two unit functions would be, incorporating the different damage point? Well the argument as I understand it seems to be maximizing effectiveness against fast melee units like upgraded zerglings and zealots. By going into Hellbat mode, you do a good job negating both of those threats; zerglings are killed quickly regardless of surround, and hypothetically zealots which can still close the gap, will be subjected to significantly more splash damage in the cone the hellbat provides as opposed to the linear fire of the Hellion.My concern is that if you lets say hypothetically, introduce a mechanic for the Hellbat where in its damage point lag is very low and it can be micro'd in a somewhat similar fashion to marines / marauders, aren't we just adding another component the terran bio ball that will be incredibly effective at the already strong 1 control group stutter step? Or again, we hypothetically keep the Hellbat with its cone and introduce a Hellion with a microable shot, you've got a unit with a bit too much flexibility.I can definitely agree that there is a lot of contradictory conditions for the Hellion/Hellbat that currently make it a counter-intuitive unit (HP change, bio to mech) but if those can be streamlined (maybe just mech and a set HP in both forms), I think the unit will be in good shape.I'm curious as to what you would envision a good balance between the two unit functions would be, incorporating the different damage point?



The changing bio tag and the changing hp are what bother me the most about this unit. The changing bio tag and the changing hp are what bother me the most about this unit. Strategy Overwatch is awesome | Support is the best role | @TL_ZeromuS | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #12 On November 01 2012 03:25 Decendos wrote:

nice work you put in there. but i think the hellbat is not about being an insane micro unit but more a "kill zealots" unit to make mech viable TvP. and keep in mind: you can always transform it into the fast and more microable helion.



making them bio is retarded though and i still havent heard any reason from blizzard to do so ^^



why is making them bio retarded?

It opens up avenues to use the medivac in combination with mech as you actually use it's abilitiy then. Without it medivacs would be pretty damn bad for mech as they would just be slow dropships without any additional bonus. That's I think the only reason they did it, just so medivacs fit with both tactics and not only with bio.



Hellbats were mostly made to work as an actually decent buffer for tanks. The normal hellion is kind of bad at this role because the moment it's surrounded by melee units it's splash attack really sucks since it targets as a line, ie without kiting the hellion is terrible and thus can't function well as frontline meat fodder.



Hellbats are not the most ingenious new design but they function well in enabling the typical mech army, slow and only good in critical mass but damn strong when it get's there.

Mixing in hellbats with MMM to fight zealots doesn't really work that well and is probably not really intended either. You need to invest in blue flame first and without upgrades the hellbats are really not that good.



The unit just functions fine as an improved meatshield for siege tanks, especially against roaches and marauders it's better as hellbats also do higher damage against those. why is making them bio retarded?It opens up avenues to use the medivac in combination with mech as you actually use it's abilitiy then. Without it medivacs would be pretty damn bad for mech as they would just be slow dropships without any additional bonus. That's I think the only reason they did it, just so medivacs fit with both tactics and not only with bio.Hellbats were mostly made to work as an actually decent buffer for tanks. The normal hellion is kind of bad at this role because the moment it's surrounded by melee units it's splash attack really sucks since it targets as a line, ie without kiting the hellion is terrible and thus can't function well as frontline meat fodder.Hellbats are not the most ingenious new design but they function well in enabling the typical mech army, slow and only good in critical mass but damn strong when it get's there.Mixing in hellbats with MMM to fight zealots doesn't really work that well and is probably not really intended either. You need to invest in blue flame first and without upgrades the hellbats are really not that good.The unit just functions fine as an improved meatshield for siege tanks, especially against roaches and marauders it's better as hellbats also do higher damage against those.

Inf-badguy Profile Joined July 2003 Canada 171 Posts #13 On November 01 2012 07:57 Markwerf wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 01 2012 03:25 Decendos wrote:

nice work you put in there. but i think the hellbat is not about being an insane micro unit but more a "kill zealots" unit to make mech viable TvP. and keep in mind: you can always transform it into the fast and more microable helion.



making them bio is retarded though and i still havent heard any reason from blizzard to do so ^^



why is making them bio retarded?

It opens up avenues to use the medivac in combination with mech as you actually use it's abilitiy then. Without it medivacs would be pretty damn bad for mech as they would just be slow dropships without any additional bonus. That's I think the only reason they did it, just so medivacs fit with both tactics and not only with bio.



Hellbats were mostly made to work as an actually decent buffer for tanks. The normal hellion is kind of bad at this role because the moment it's surrounded by melee units it's splash attack really sucks since it targets as a line, ie without kiting the hellion is terrible and thus can't function well as frontline meat fodder.



Hellbats are not the most ingenious new design but they function well in enabling the typical mech army, slow and only good in critical mass but damn strong when it get's there.

Mixing in hellbats with MMM to fight zealots doesn't really work that well and is probably not really intended either. You need to invest in blue flame first and without upgrades the hellbats are really not that good.



The unit just functions fine as an improved meatshield for siege tanks, especially against roaches and marauders it's better as hellbats also do higher damage against those. why is making them bio retarded?It opens up avenues to use the medivac in combination with mech as you actually use it's abilitiy then. Without it medivacs would be pretty damn bad for mech as they would just be slow dropships without any additional bonus. That's I think the only reason they did it, just so medivacs fit with both tactics and not only with bio.Hellbats were mostly made to work as an actually decent buffer for tanks. The normal hellion is kind of bad at this role because the moment it's surrounded by melee units it's splash attack really sucks since it targets as a line, ie without kiting the hellion is terrible and thus can't function well as frontline meat fodder.Hellbats are not the most ingenious new design but they function well in enabling the typical mech army, slow and only good in critical mass but damn strong when it get's there.Mixing in hellbats with MMM to fight zealots doesn't really work that well and is probably not really intended either. You need to invest in blue flame first and without upgrades the hellbats are really not that good.The unit just functions fine as an improved meatshield for siege tanks, especially against roaches and marauders it's better as hellbats also do higher damage against those.



The thing that bothers me specifically about the HP and attribute changes is that is inconsistent with the other units that are able to shift back and forth between two unit types, specifically the siege tank and the viking. Both of these units maintain their attributes as armored / mechanical and maintain the same health. It suggests that despite these transformations, the units still have the same components to work with and their overall composition does not change.



The Hellion / Hellbat disposes of this consistency with its (arguably) silly name change, shift in attributes and as mentioned in the OP, the messy change in health between the two transformations. The thing that bothers me specifically about the HP and attribute changes is that is inconsistent with the other units that are able to shift back and forth between two unit types, specifically the siege tank and the viking. Both of these units maintain their attributes as armored / mechanical and maintain the same health. It suggests that despite these transformations, the units still have the same components to work with and their overall composition does not change.The Hellion / Hellbat disposes of this consistency with its (arguably) silly name change, shift in attributes and as mentioned in the OP, the messy change in health between the two transformations.

emc Profile Joined September 2010 United States 3068 Posts Last Edited: 2012-10-31 23:27:48 #14 I like your thought, but terran doesn't need more micro with hellbats. The point of mech is to carefully position your units, not micro them. It's kind of like BW, the heavy micro requirements are with bio, and mech is about positioning. Hellbats fill this role quite well IMO, because once toss players start to realize they have to flank with zealots instead of just a-move, or actually use warp prisms to drop on tanks, then we may start seeing terran players use their hellbats more defensively to surround their tanks and "leap frog" them with the tanks for cover. Really the whole point of the hellbat is to be a meatshield that benefits from mech upgrades and beats out mass chargelot, I don't mind this at all, considering how amazing chargelots are and REMAIN at 100 min cost, now terran has a 100 min cost unit that can do something similar.



Also, I know that hellbats with their stats pretty much mean no micro whatsoever, but beta is still young, so we really can't say for certain that "unit X or Y has no micro" when we still haven't even seen pros play this game full time to discover all the cool things. Remember, we all thought mutas were awful against thors in the early stages of WoL, until after enough playing and testing did we find out that you can beat thors with mutas rather easily.



One thing I do agree with, hellbat is an awful name, and it shouldn't be a bio unit with mech upgrades.

Fenris420 Profile Joined November 2011 Sweden 213 Posts Last Edited: 2012-10-31 23:47:39 #15 On November 01 2012 03:25 Grumbels wrote:

In general I think units stopping while shooting is obnoxious and is wrong design for a competitive game; after all, if you're a professional player you're just waiting for the attack animation to be done and it's annoying. Even so, I don't think you can change the hellion in this way without making them a lot stronger versus zerglings.



I don't agree with this statement.



Compare two metal drummers. On one hand, you have Derek Roddy



On the other hand you have drummers like Thomas Haake



Derek Roddy is a really great drummer, don't get me wrong, but he has nothing on Haake. The difficulty is not in the BPM, it is the timings and the overall "feel" you get. Basically the same as comparing raw APM with multitasking and timing. Juking a storm is more than just running back and fourth. Imo, we need more things that require timing in the game but not necessarily things that just needs to be done quickly . I don't agree with this statement.Compare two metal drummers. On one hand, you have Derek Roddy + Show Spoiler + On the other hand you have drummers like Thomas Haake + Show Spoiler + Derek Roddy is a really great drummer, don't get me wrong, but he has nothing on Haake. The difficulty is not in the BPM, it is the timings and the overall "feel" you get. Basically the same as comparing raw APM with multitasking and timing. Juking a storm is more than just running back and fourth. Imo, we need more things that require timing in the game but not necessarily things that just needs to be done quickly . + Show Spoiler +

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4834 Posts #16 I think...all of this post is dumb? There are a lot of things I disagree with here, most of which is the idea that the hellion is somehow, in some capacity, NOT a good unit. I think this is totally and utterly wrong; hellions are probably one the most dynamic and interesting units in WoL and really don't need any fixing at all.



As for all of your cons, I see no problem with any of them besides the cone-shaped attack. I feel like this is to cut down on the Hellbat DPS some, kind of an indirect nerf, more than it is a thoughtless change based on it looking cool.



And really...the name change is not a big deal. At all. Strategy

Grumbels Profile Blog Joined May 2009 Netherlands 6994 Posts #17 On November 01 2012 08:46 Fenris420 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 01 2012 03:25 Grumbels wrote:

In general I think units stopping while shooting is obnoxious and is wrong design for a competitive game; after all, if you're a professional player you're just waiting for the attack animation to be done and it's annoying. Even so, I don't think you can change the hellion in this way without making them a lot stronger versus zerglings.



I don't agree with this statement.



Compare two metal drummers. On one hand, you have Derek Roddy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-AIpoSEwDI



On the other hand you have drummers like Thomas Haake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOR0hUIGb4Y



Derek Roddy is a really great drummer, don't get me wrong, but he has nothing on Haake. The difficulty is not in the BPM, it is the timings and the overall "feel" you get. Basically the same as comparing raw APM with multitasking and timing. Juking a storm is more than just running back and fourth. Imo, we need more things that require timing in the game but not necessarily things that just needs to be done quickly . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAfBWrVyMM I don't agree with this statement.Compare two metal drummers. On one hand, you have Derek Roddy + Show Spoiler + who can play consistently at ridiculous speeds.On the other hand you have drummers like Thomas Haake + Show Spoiler + who play a completely different style of oddball tempos, even thouh the music genres here are not that far apart.Derek Roddy is a really great drummer, don't get me wrong, but he has nothing on Haake. The difficulty is not in the BPM, it is the timings and the overall "feel" you get. Basically the same as comparing raw APM with multitasking and timing. Juking a storm is more than just running back and fourth. Imo, we need more things that require timing in the game but not necessarily things that just needs to be done quickly . + Show Spoiler +

But you already have the timing aspect in the attack cooldown. But you already have the timing aspect in the attack cooldown. Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #18 Out of all the units in the game you want the hellion to micro better?



I mean, there are units that really have hardly any micro capabilities out there, but the hellion basically does have a ton of it. It kites well, it target fires well, its line splash allows for a lot of different micro in different situations (get as close as possible in some situations, and sometimes just treat it as 5range singlefire), getting it to attack from the right angle matters a lot and so on...



Sorry, but I think you are trying to create an argument for something that is not an issue, just because you don't like the battlehellion.

The_Frozen_Inferno Profile Joined September 2012 Canada 98 Posts #19 You're correct in saying that 'damage point' refers to when in the fire cycle the 'damage effect' of a weapon comes into play.



When the hellion is issued an attack command, it stops moving (it has effectively instantaneous deceleration) and enters into its firing cycle (the period of this cycle is the 2.5 you see on the UI).



0.25 seconds passes before the fancy linear-splash damage effect is created.

After the 'point of damage', the weapon must complete its firing cycle (the rest of the 2.25 in the 2.5 fire period) before it can begin the cycle again.



The hellion is free to move in the 0.26 - 2.25 part of the cycle as the weapon completes its cooldown phase.



But if a move command is issued anywhere between the 0.00 and 0.24 mark, the firing sequence gets cancelled, and the damage effect is never created.



For any who has tried to kite a stalker vs a marine and seen the stalker visually gather itself to fire but then not fire, this is what happens.



This is also why you can barely stutter-step with a thor. The damage point for its ground weapon is 0.83 in a fire period of 1.28



Damage point is also responsible for why the drone's attack was so inferior to an SCVs or a probe's before that patch way back when. For whatever reason, drones had a non-standard damage point, and always would attack later in their firing cycle.



****



I don't think that the battle hellion was ever supposed to be a micro-intensive unit. Since its introduction at Blizzcon, I always figured it was supposed to be a buffering-tanky kind of thing that was supposed to just stand there like a flaming wall and stop quick melee units from closing distance with your sieged tanks.



Maybe this has changed since a while ago, but I didn't think that hellbats had any problem with chargelots. It was the archons that were massacring them since as 'bio' units, they take 35 instead of 25 damage. Battle mode was supposed to be Blizzard's hellion-centric solution to late-game mass chargelot refloods. Or something.





Although, I will admit the HP change thing doesn't make sense to me either. I thought maybe it would either change from light -> armoured or gain some life armour in battle mode instead of changing HP.



***



On another note, making units have instantaneous acceleration, turning rate and damage point to make them 'fully microable' or something like that, might make them absurdly strong. It would almost let the hellion (or any other unit) have fire-on-the-move abilities. Or, have a 'moving shot' if you will. Except there would be no element of timing. You could literally spam right-click and tap H periodically to fire on the move with maximum efficiency.





I don't know whether or not this is a good thing, but it's easy to put into a custom map and see what happens. I've tried it, and I don't like it. But then what do I know. I haven't laddered since steppes of war was vetoable.



Giving a stalker a damage point of 0.00 makes it incredibly easy to kite non-stimmed marines. The way it is now, it's doable but challenging. You have a very small window, so you have to do it carefully if you want to avoid taking damage.



Dragoons had a much much later damage point. But they also tended to outrange BW marines 6 to 4 as well.





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Off topic:



Well, even if 'hunter seeker missile' doesn't actually appear anywhere in the SC2 UI when it's running, internally in the data editor, almost everything about it is referred to as 'hunter seeker.'



On the other hand, the editor also names the damage effect for the thor 'thor hand gun splash damage.'



And the hellion is a vehicle. So, should it get upgraded from the 'vehicle weapon' upgrade?

Although, I'm not actually sure if the hellbat/battlehellion is supposed to be a mech walker or an armoured power suit. In Bizarro World, I ladder more than I make custom maps

Fenris420 Profile Joined November 2011 Sweden 213 Posts #20 On November 01 2012 09:48 Grumbels wrote:

But you already have the timing aspect in the attack cooldown.



Yes, but I want more, basically Yes, but I want more, basically

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