Meddler's

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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 31

Meddler's

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Why open up bot lane?

As mentioned last week we're looking to open up bot lane to other classes beyond marksmen. Seen quite a lot of discussion about that, ranging from people really excited to play other stuff bot to players who think it's a terrible idea. Figured we should share some more of our rationale as a result.

What we're trying to do:

We want to make it so other classes can be played bot IF you want to.

We don't want to push marksmen out of bot lane. They'll still be great choices there and, if you want to play nothing but marksmen in bot, that should be a fine choice. This is not about forcing people who want to play marksmen only to play other classes, but allowing people who want to play other things to do so. Can understand the concern about being pushed out of the only position some champions can play and that's not our goal.

We want to open bot up to a range of classes, not just marksmen and one other one. That'll be a gradual process though. Most likely outcome is that mid-season opens the position up somewhat (mages most likely). Later work then opens it up more, based in part off learnings from mid-season.

Why we think we should do it:

We think LoL is a more enjoyable and interesting game when you can play a wider range of team comps and get a range of different laning experiences. A lot of players gravitate towards trying new stuff, experimenting with what does and doesn't work.

Bot is currently much more limited in terms of what works there than other positions. We'd like to open it up as a result to players who want to go bot but don't like Marksmen and players who like marksmen but would also like to play some other class(es). That's been a frequent request from many players for quite a long time.

Azir

We've (probably) got a late nerf going into 8.3 for Azir, targeting his waveclear/AOE. Plan is to reduce his damage on secondary AA targets, hitting both his laning power (ability to push/counterpush and roam) and ability to stall out sieges late game.

Kalista

By contrast we're pulling Kalista's changes from 8.3. We're looking to reduce her power in pro, with low impact in regular play. Reducing auto attack range, potentially with compensatory buffs elsewhere, looks like it might be a good lever there, given pro duo lanes are often more sensitive to differences in AA range. We're not confident enough the changes we've been testing are right though. We'll be taking a look at Kalista again during 8.4 development as a result, both the AA range reduction and other alternative approaches.

Non LoL: Sid Meier on games as a series of decisions

Summary below of a GDC talk by Sid Meier (creator of the Civilization series and a lot of other things).Well worth a read if design theory's your sort of thing. The opening section on what an interesting decision is is stuff that might be pretty familiar (talked about fairly widely). Later sections get into things like the value of informed choice and the use of historical context as an intuitive foundation though.

Meddler

"Concern we were buffing Viktor more than intended. Ult CD probably doesn't do that much, went meant pulling the Q augment shield buff or the E CD. We've think Viktor should be a bit tankier than he is later in the game, given his combat ranges do require him to get closer than many mages, so the shield buff was the change we have the higher confidence in.

If the Q and ult buffs don't move him enough we'd consider the E buff again for 8.4."

Meddler

"Quote:

Do you think you'll do anything to Viktor's Hexcore during the ap item update? Or is it not relevant to those changes. No plans to change it as part of the AP item adjustments no. Still hoping to have those in 8.4."

Meddler

"Quote:

Opening up bot lane? Does that mean Mordekaiser’s gonna be revisited soon(tm)?

Also, I have to know: What was the reasoning behind giving Nunu the AP %boost on his W?

EDIT: Beyond just opening him up to AP champs, I mean. Why not a flat number? And why 40%/+105 at Rank 5? Morde needs Morde specific work. Trying to push him pretty hard into a duo lane wasn't successful. The mid-season bot lane work's going to be about giving other classes the tools they need to function better there like items, synergies between supports and non marksmen, maybe tower changes etc, rather than trying to put specific champs in there by changing their kits.

Nunu wise yeah, allowing him to synergize with more champs than just those after attack speed was the driver. A percentage was used so that he was offering power specifically to champs going with AP builds, not just those with some AP ratios on their kits. Result otherwise is that you still want to be Blood Boiling ADCs specifically, just want to make sure you've got someone like Kog who gets a decent amount of damage from that added flat AP too."

Meddler

"Zoe wise she's a topic of a fair bit of debate internally. Let me get back to you this Friday with a more in depth answer, rather than just giving you my current thinking.

In terms of balancing 'off-roles' we want to try and support those more. First priority though is to make sure a champion isn't out of line in their most common position(s). Once they're fairly stable there considering off roles is more feasible."

Meddler

"Quote:

Two main questions here:

Any update on the replacements to Frost Queen's Claim/Talisman of Ascension? (And maybe Face of the Mountain?) My support-oriented self is really missing the two items.

Secondly, will 's mana regeneration ever function while present in the river? We've got a new version of Shurelia's Reverie back in testing. Suspect it's more likely to be in 8.6 than 8.4, will probably PBE it earlier than that though to get more feedback on. Potentially same timeframe, including early PBE, for Spooky Ghosts (not sure what name we'll use there yet).

Going to be looking at mana regen for junglers in 8.4. Don't think that particular solution has been discussed yet, I'll bring it up though."

Meddler

"Jungle Naut - Yes, want to make sure he's at least an ok jungle pick again. Talked about him and a few other champs who've historically been able to jungle but are struggling to at present yesterday. Probably won't make it onto the docket for 8.4, expect he'll be soonish afterwards though."

Maple Nectar

"Quote:

Meddler tell us about volibear Buffs... U said he is going to get buffed in 8.3 and now u just ignore every Volibear question We're still working on it. We scoped it up a bit so it's taken a bit longer to lock on something. Likely to see him in 8.4, but could be farther out if we go with the larger changes."

Meddler

"Quote:

Could we get some context on the spellbook nerf? It's too strong a choice at this point primarily just for the CDR on your existing Summoners, rather than because swapping's offering enough. We've been working on an updated version of it, it's not ready yet though. Taking power out of it as a short term measure as a result, rather than leaving it too dominant until the new version's out."

Maple Nectar

"Quote:

After bot lane has been opened up, would you guys look into also letting marksmen start in other lanes? I don't play adc but that's a concern I saw some of those players have -- having their lane opened up to other classes, while they themselves are still locked in bot lane. I think this becomes a natural follow through on this sort of project. If marksman weren't able to reliably go into other lanes, but for some reason the meta flipped to 100% mages bot lane, we'd find ourselves in a world where marksman have literally no place in the game. Whether that be through individual champion tuning/items/systems I think that'll be an implicit goal we have, while also making sure that if marksman are suddenly more viable top lane they don't completely usurp the classes that prefer top lane."

Maple Nectar

"Quote:

Any plans for Jungle Fiddlesticks? Yep! We took him on for 8.4. Some concern regarding how we can make his jungle healthier while not also making middlesticks nucking futs, but the desire is there!"

Maple Nectar

"Quote:

can you give us the context of the Tryndamere buff revert yesterday please? Just general magnitude concerns."

Quick Hits

Riot August provided some extra context on the Rengar changes in testing on the PBE:

"Some short context for the next week, no changes today.

PBE branch cut for 8.3 just happened, so while we'll we will be continuing to iterate on Rengar internally, you won't be seeing the results of any of those changes until next week when 8.4 PBE comes out. Target ship date remains 8.4

Overall, with the current Q and R changes, we feel like we're coming very close to a Rengar we'd like to ship with a few notable things to still be worked on:

----Q - Ferocity gains and Tri-Q (Need to figure out if Tri-Q is okay, and if not, how to gate it. Also need to make a final decision on the way the new Q grants and consumes ferocity)

----Balance tuning (he still needs a good deal of it)

----Feel changes and bug fixes (it seems like there's still a lot of small wins to be had in order to make him feel better/smoother/more fun, please continue to give feedback)

----AP Rengar - as noted in the original post, a secondary goal of the rework was to validate off-builds for the character. While we still think Critgar and Tankgar may be maintainable, we are worried that meaningfully buffing AP Rango is dangerous. At the end of the day, his output remains very similar to lethality Rango (jump on guy and burst them), but, when effective, AP Rengar does it faster and with less counterplay.

In the interest of complete transparency, it is highly likely that the next Rengar iteration you see will remove many of the buffs that I tried out to make AP Rengar more viable. That said, what I WON'T be doing is deliberately making AP Rengar worse than he is on live. Overall, a number of the changes we have planned will help AP Rengar even without explicit AP ratio adds (like the new Q's Lich Bane synergy).

Thanks for all your support, keep the feedback coming, we're in the home-stretch here and there's still a lot that can be done to make the best Rengar possible."

Reminders



Hungry for a rotating game mode? Look for the Hunt of the Blood Moon mode to start with the Lunar Revel, coming sometime in Patch 8.3!

[BACK TO TOP] To round out this red post collection, here are a few reminders on current promotions or limited time events!

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