In your new book you use the words, "an army of glorious brothers" to describe jihadists' holy war. Is a craving to belong a motivating factor for these men? This is a different kind of craving – a craving for brotherhood and glory that's all about life after death. All Muslims are brought up with the notion that you submit to the fact that Allah is the one and only God and Muhammad is the final messenger. You also submit to the day of judgment or the final day and that this life here on earth is very temporary and real eternal life begins after death. Islam puts life after death at the centre of everything. Our Prime Minister calls Islamic State a "death cult". Is Islamic extremism a cult? Islam unreformed is a cult. ISIS [also known as Islamic State] is a manifestation of Islam unreformed. And therefore it is a cult, at least how we describe a cult – "you're either with us or you're not", the insider, the outsider. That's why I'm insisting that the answer doesn't come from only economic, military, surveillance or counter-terrorism measures. Ultimately, the answer will have to come from

a reformation of Islam. What effect has social media had on the rise of organisations such as Islamic State?

Social media gives them massive clout; they can now reach millions of people instantaneously. But the core message hasn't changed. It's not Twitter or YouTube or Facebook that is radicalising individuals, it's the content. "Jihad is like one giant selfie." Please explain. Ultimately that boils down to honour and shame. So take that guy who pumps up his muscles and gets the six-pack and really wants to look good for the girls. What he realises after a while is that what will take him to the apex of the honour pyramid is dying for the sake of Allah. And in his expectation, and the expectation of anybody who believes in Islam, when we cross this life and we get to the eternal life, Allah is going to reward those who died for him without question and then, there, you have the ultimate selfie. What about "jihad rap"? If you want to attract the largest number of people to your cause and you're the leaders of ISIS, you know that you can draw some of your audience through the mosque, the madrasa [educational institution], through colleges and then there is an audience of young men and women who are attracted to rap and hip-hop; if you're a savvy public relations person, why would you then not use jihad rap? And that's what makes this complex: Muslim parents, especially in the West, who feel that they've lost their children to modern culture, are initially quite grateful when these radical Muslims come in and draw in their sons. [They say] he was drinking, he was doing drugs, he was on the verge of joining this or that gang and now he's back home, he's praying five times a day, he got rid of that crazy hairdo – it's very attractive to parents.

What is the process of radicalisation? Muslim parents encourage their children to submit 100 per cent to the teachings of Allah in the Koran and to the message and example of the prophet Muhammad. That's why I want Westerners to understand how the foundational layer is established inadvertently by the parents, by innocent parents, the people we call peace-loving Muslims. Because once that's established in your head the next step doesn't matter. [We need to] go after the message itself. That's why I'm calling for a reformation of Islam and a broad discussion. Muslim parents will not immunise their children against [radicalism] but we, in the open society, we can immunise them, at least we can plant the seeds of doubt in school, in the media, through critical thinking and [by] saying, "Maybe this is what you got from your parents but, in fact, these are the questions you need to be asking." You question the premise that Islamic extremism, terrorism and violence can be differentiated from the religion. What is it about the doctrine of Islam? The literal reading of the Koran is a central part of what animates the bloody battles of jihad playing out across Syria and Iraq [and] those who say the butchers of the Islamic State are misinterpreting … verses [of the Koran] have a problem. The Koran itself explicitly urges pitilessness. In order for the message of the Muslim reformation to take hold we have to be intellectually honest and say that [those verses should be seen] in the context [of the era in which they were written]. Is Western tolerance and political correctness and the fear of being labelled Islamophobic part of the issue?

Yes. The fact that we define Muslims in general as being victims … they are mad, or they're mistaken, or that our leaders insist that the

Islamic State is not Islamic. [The Western liberal approach] wholly misunderstands the problem of Islam in the 21st century. How do you stop the debate you want about a Muslim reformation from becoming a siren call to the racists of society? This debate on Islam is far more urgent than what the fringe extreme right-wing groups are going to do or not going to do. [It's] a bigger priority than what the handful of skinheads in Australia are going to do or not going to do. I think in the West we put so much focus on the skinheads and so little focus on what the other skinheads, the "Muslim skinheads", are doing. Will Islam ever allow women to be equal with men as we understand equality of the sexes in the West? Islam has to change. Yes, I have an optimism. In order to get to that place where a majority of society is going to view women as equals, we need to fight and we need to push back. And what have we been doing in the last 30 or so years in the West? We've been making excuses for Islam. Our leaders have been bleating that Islam is a religion of peace, so we're letting down Muslim women. I think now is the critical moment, now is the time to start, especially for countries in Europe where the demographics might just make it difficult, if not impossible, to start that conversation.

You're on an Al Qaeda hit list. Do you ever regret your activism? I've not regretted it, no. They want us to exhaust all reformers, all heretics, all infidels, anybody who wants and seeks change, they want to exhaust them, threaten them, silence them, ostracise them and that's the one thing we need not give them. It means you'll never have an ordinary life, free of fear? I'm 45 years old, most of my life is gone anyway.





Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now by Ayaan Hirsi Ali is published by HarperCollins, on sale now.