michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: This past weekend, immigration officials were scheduled to begin arresting and deporting thousands of undocumented immigrants who had been ordered to leave the United States but had remained anyway. On Friday evening, we spoke to one woman who feared she was on the list. It’s Monday, July 15.

[phone ringing]

herminia

Hello?

michael barbaro

Hi, is this Herminia?

herminia

Yes, I am.

michael barbaro

Hey, it’s Michael Barbaro from The New York Times.

herminia

Hi, Michael. Can you hear me good?

michael barbaro

I can hear you very well.

herminia

O.K., good.

michael barbaro

Thank you so much for making time for us.

herminia

You’re very welcome. The only thing I’m going to say is that my English is not perfect, but I’m going to try my best.

michael barbaro

Am I right that we’re going to be calling you Herminia in this interview, but that’s not your real name?

herminia

No, I don’t want to be identified, so —

michael barbaro

Got it, and where am I reaching you right now? It’s early in the evening, around 7 o’clock on Friday. You’re just getting home?

herminia

Yes, you know, I supposed to be home since, like, 6:20, but I just finished, because I was washing dishes. And I just finished, so that’s why, you know, I still in my car driving. But I’m going to park.

michael barbaro

When you say you were doing dishes, what is the work that you’re describing?

herminia

Oh, I’m a housekeeper and a nanny. I take care of 3-year-old little boy, and I am the housekeeper, so making sure that everything is clean in the kitchen before I leave, because I supposed to go tomorrow. But I explain my boss that, you know, I’m not feeling comfortable going out tomorrow so, you know, I rather stay home to protect myself and my family.

michael barbaro

Herminia, let’s talk a little bit about how you came to be in the situation that we’re going to be talking about. Where exactly are you from? Tell me about where you came from and what it was like to grow up there.

herminia

I’m from Nicaragua. I came to this country when I was 21 years old, and I came because I have a daughter. At that time, she was 6 years old. And I used to have some problems with people that belong to, you know, the Sandinistas’ party. They run the government and everything. So, it was hard for me to get a job, especially when these people know that you are not fan of that party.

michael barbaro

Let me make sure I understand. It sounds like you had attracted some kind of negative attention from the government in Nicaragua. Is that right?

herminia

Yes, because, you know, it’s not like here. You can be a Democrat. You can be a Republican. And you have a job. Your party is not a big deal. But, in my country, it doesn’t work that way. So, I was at home taking care of my daughter. My husband was working in a cruise line. But, when he was working in this cruise line, they explained him that they were not going to hire him anymore because they were selling the ships. So, you know, that worried me a lot, because I said, O.K., what I’m going to do now? On his way to Nicaragua, he came to Miami to visit his family, his relatives he has here. And, you know, I have to do the decision to tell him, O.K., you know what? You’re going to have to stay in U.S.A. You’re going to have to stay there, and I’m going to try to go. I used to have my visa, so I didn’t see any problem for me to travel, and I came. I came without my 6-year-old daughter, because at that time she didn’t have her passport ready, so she stay with my mother-in-law. And I decide to come. I decide to come for a better future for her.

michael barbaro

O.K., let me just make sure I understand. So, your husband had been working for a cruise company, but then he lost his job, and he was headed back to Nicaragua to be with you. But, then, you decided that, instead, he should stay in Miami and that you would try to join him there?

herminia

Yes, exactly.

michael barbaro

And both you and your husband are undocumented?

herminia

Yes, so we went to a lawyer, and he explain us that you have problems in your country, so we can ask for asylum. So, we request the asylum, and we wait. We got the working permit. We were working. I start working in a — home nurse, H.H.A., home health aide. And I start working, taking care elderly.

michael barbaro

What do you remember about those early days in the U.S.? What were your first impressions of this country?

herminia

You know, something that called me the attention is when I went to the grocery store the first time. You know, you take your stuff, everything you’re going to buy. You put it in the cart, and then you go and pay. You don’t see that in my city. You’ll go to the store, and then it’s a big bar in front of you. And you ask for the stuff. They give it to you, and you pay. But, here, it’s like, you know, oh, you — even sometimes you get something, you open it, you eat it, and then you pay, right?

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

herminia

So, I said wow. I got impressed when I saw that. Because I said, don’t people take stuff and steal it, you know, take it out, and just don’t pay for it, and they run away? And my husband explain me — no, you know, here is different. And I — oh, my God. This is beautiful, how the mailman come and get stuff right in front of your door, and nobody touch it. And I was like — see the chairs outside the houses, or decorations for Christmas — in my country, that will not stay for two hours. You see, one big difference — and I said, wow, this is a beautiful country.

michael barbaro

What year was that?

herminia

That year was — let me remember — from 20 — no, 2002 to 2006. It was the last year I had my working permit. At the end of the year, in 2006, I suppose to renew my working permit. But they send me a letter that they cannot renew my working permit. So, after that, I receive a letter from immigration with the asylum case that it was denied. It was one page telling me that your case was denied by the judge, dah-dah-dah-dah. Nothing else, just my case was denied. So, that’s how I didn’t get the chance to get my working permit again.

michael barbaro

So, these two things are connected, not getting a work permit and not getting asylum. They’re linked.

herminia

Yes, because they had the answer from the judge saying that my asylum was denied.

michael barbaro

So, they had decided that the case that you were making, the reason that you didn’t want to go back to Nicaragua, was not sufficient for asylum.

herminia

Yes. I remember they send me a big folder of things about my country saying that my country have democracy now. And it’s true, because by that time, the Ortegas wasn’t in the power. So, I say O.K., you know, what can I do? There was no job for me. I have a daughter. You know, I need to do something different. I need to get a better future for her.

michael barbaro

So, you seem to be sort of acknowledging that maybe your asylum case was not that strong, but that you really didn’t want to go back home to Nicaragua.

herminia

I did not want — and I said no, no. This is not a place to raise my daughter. So, 2006 — I appeal, but the judge denied again. I remember Bush — President Bush was talking about immigration reform, and my family used to say to me, don’t leave. Don’t plan to go back to Nicaragua, because things is going to get better here. You’re going to have your opportunity to fix your papers. But I stay, and I say, O.K. O.K., as long as I don’t have a deportation order, I’m O.K. What I did, in the middle of I was trying to get my asylum, I had the chance to bring my daughter through the airport, also.

michael barbaro

Through the airport?

herminia

Yes, so she came as a tourist. And I say you’re going to stay, mama. You’re going to stay. You’re not going back. We are here, and we’re going to try to do everything that is possible so we can stay here in this country.

michael barbaro

So, she just flew to the U.S. as if she was visiting?

herminia

Yes.

michael barbaro

On a vacation — and you kind of snuck her in.

herminia

Yes, after four year I came, she came.

michael barbaro

And she never left.

herminia

She never left. So, 2010 — I went to my lawyer. It was him and his wife. Well, she asked me — you know, how’s everything? And I said, well, you know, just waiting for something to come out. It was Obama in the power at that time.

michael barbaro

Obama was president?

herminia

Yes, and she say to me, you know, don’t lose the faith, because this president is good. And he’s going to try to help you out. And I say, you know what? I’m O.K. as long as I don’t have a deportation order. So, she say to me, yes, you have a deportation order. And I say, no, I don’t have any. I say, thank God, you know, I don’t have it. Yeah, she said — so there she explain me, once a judge deny a case, automatically, it’s a deportation order.

michael barbaro

So, she is telling you that the denial of your asylum years earlier — that had been the deportation order?

herminia

Yeah, that’s what she explained me. So, she called this toll-free phone from Homeland Security, where you put your alien number. And she put my alien number, and I heard the message that say the judge denied the case for this person — you know, say my name — and make the order of removal. And she say, you see, you have a deportation order. Oh, my God, when she say that to me, everything fall apart. My face was so warm. She said, are you O.K.? And I say, oh, my God, I can’t believe this. What? No, no. It’s impossible. I say, why I have a deportation order and nobody tell me nothing? Nobody saying anything to me. So, she said, no, they not always do that, but you have a deportation order. So, be careful. Try not to stay in a place for many years. She give me some advice. I came out from that office, and I sat down, and I told my husband, we need to talk. And I explained him what happened to me. And I say, if it happened to me, it’s the same with you. So, I said to him, what we gonna do? At that time, he was working in construction, and I start working as a housekeeper, because I didn’t have my working permit anymore. And we sold the car we had.

michael barbaro

Why?

herminia

Because it was the beginning of being alive without driver license, being alive without a paper that show me that I was legal in the country. We try not to go out. You know, usually, in the weekends, we used to go out. I was scared. We didn’t want to get pulled over by the police, and I don’t know what the police was going to do with us. And we just try to stay away from anything that can put you in a bad position.

michael barbaro

And how many people like you did you know? How many of your friends and the people you work with are also undocumented, or did you feel very alone?

herminia

At the beginning, yes, I thought I was the only one. But then, when people start telling me stories, people that were citizen already, and say, you know what? I’ve been in this country for 15 years without papers. And then, when I start talking to people that maybe I never in my life I would think they were undocumented, they say to me, you know what? Don’t say anything, but I don’t have paper either. Many people. Many people. I have a friend from Argentina. She’s a lady. She’s a white lady, beautiful. She always dress up pretty. And one day, when we have the trust to talk about this, she say to me, I have been in this country for 17 years, and I don’t have papers. And I was like, oh, O.K., well, it’s something that, believe it or not, help you a lot, because it’s O.K. I’m not alone in this. I am not alone. So I say, O.K., you know what? I’m going to stay here. I’m going to try to live my life. I’m going to try to work, feed my family, and try to be calm until one day we see the light. But I never feel afraid. I never feel the fear that I feel now, because the fear is there every single day. Trump — he make sure to remind you that he’s coming for you. He’s going to catch you. He’s going to send you back home. You know, it’s something that — thank God that I don’t get mental illness, because I will be crazy by now.

michael barbaro

Well, let’s talk about this. In what form do you hear that message every day, that the president is coming for you?

herminia

Sometimes I cry, because it’s not nice to hear somebody telling you every day, you are this, you are this, you, you — you’re like, oh, my God, what I did bad? Just staying in a country where I want to feel safe? I don’t know. I don’t know. Right now, I’m in my car talking to you, and I know, when I get through that door, I have to turn off that light and stay in my room. Why?

michael barbaro

You mean, once you get home tonight, you need to lock the door, and turn off the light, and you won’t go back outside. You can’t go back outside, because this weekend there will be those raids?

herminia

Yes.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. What have the last few days been like for you, since you found out that these raids were coming?

herminia

The first time, I was O.K. I’m not going to lie. That was on Thursday. I was O.K. On Friday, I was cleaning my boss room when I receive the first call asking me, are you O.K.? You know, are you prepared? And they say, O.K., look. I don’t want to scare you, but you need to be careful, because they are looking for people that have deportation order, and —

michael barbaro

So, people you know are calling you and saying, we hear there are raids coming.

herminia

Yeah, but when I received the second call, I realized, O.K., this is serious. O.K., hello, come back to earth. It’s happening.

michael barbaro

So, that was a week ago. And the raids were in fact rescheduled for this weekend. That’s our understanding and yours, too. So, you are now sitting in your car. It’s 8:00 p.m. on Friday night. Once you go inside, after we finish talking, you probably won’t come back out all weekend. Is that right?

herminia

Yes. We decide to stay home, but we — you know, with rules. Nobody is going to open the door. Nobody. I have a note, a big note in front of my doors that say, do not open the door. Don’t answer. So, when somebody comes to knock on my door, we have to go to my daughter’s room to check through the window in her room to see who is knocking on the door before open. The window is down. It’s closed.

michael barbaro

The shade?

herminia

The light in the living room is going to be off. The TV is going to be really low. Right now, I told them, do not turn on the light. Just put the small lamp that we have. So, if somebody’s trying to look inside, they’re not able to see inside. Right now, I’m parking in my neighbor parking lot. She is park in my parking lot. She’s a citizen. So, she said to me, you know what? Let they come for me, so you park in my parking lot. The one in front of me, I told her that, starting Monday, before I open the door to go to my job, something weird — she will let me know.

michael barbaro

So, you’ll be able to figure out if — you’ll be able to detect if there are immigration or police officers?

herminia

Before I head out to work on Monday, she — I have to call her. So, she have to come out and see that everything is clear so I can come out and go to work.

michael barbaro

This sounds really hard.

herminia

It is. It is, because you think it’s going to be only a week. Yeah, it could be only a week. But there is a list. There is a list of people.

michael barbaro

Do you think, Herminia, that your name is on that list?

herminia

I don’t know. I don’t know.

michael barbaro

Herminia, what do you say to the listeners, of which I’m sure there are some, who are hearing your story and are saying to themselves that all this sounds really, really hard, but are also saying that you were not granted citizenship or asylum, and what that means is that you can’t stay, you’re not here legally, and that this is just law enforcement and enforcement of the law?

herminia

Sometime, you have to not be perfect. Think about the family. Be human. Be humble to understand it, the hard situation people have in Central America. Of course, not everybody can come and stay. And they said, do your papers. Or, you know what? Do it the legal way. Explain me, what is the legal way? If I was in my country right now, what is the legal way to come here and stay here?

michael barbaro

It sounds like you have an appreciation for Americans who are thinking to themselves that the United States can’t accept every person who is unhappy in their own country, who wants a better life.

herminia

Not appreciation. They repeat this phrase every single day. Oh, so everybody who wants to come to this country just come and stay and — it’s not that. At the moment somebody leave their country, it’s for a reason. It’s for a reason. America is big enough to have immigrants. You know why I love this country? Because I have my three times of food, because right now I can come outside and say whatever I want, because I have freedom to speech. I can’t do that in my country.

michael barbaro

Herminia, I really want to thank you so much for talking to us.

herminia

You’re very welcome. All right — get my stuff. My daughter called, and I don’t know if she’s home. I don’t see her car here yet. I’m walking right before I get in front of the building. O.K., my windows are closed. The light is on. Someone — I’m going to go to talk about this again. Let me check my mail before I get in, because I don’t want to go back outside. O.K., I’m going through the stairs. You’re going hear my dog is barking when I get in, because they are the first one that comes through the door to say hi to mommy. Hi. [SPEAKING SPANISH]

speaker

[SPEAKING SPANISH]

herminia

[SPEAKING SPANISH]

michael barbaro

As of Sunday night, the large-scale immigration raids scheduled to begin over the weekend had not occurred. The Times reports that the operation was delayed after being widely publicized, tipping off undocumented immigrants and giving them time to hide. The Trump administration had previously told The Times that these raids were part of a strategy of deterrence designed to discourage undocumented people from coming to or staying inside the country. Herminia spent the weekend in her home and says she may go back to work today. She now believes the raids will come at any moment and without any notice. We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. On Sunday, President Trump weighed in on the growing tensions between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and four liberal House freshmen, declaring that the freshmen should return to the countries, quote, “from which they came.” Three of the lawmakers, Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, were born in the United States. The fourth, Ilhan Omar, was born in Somalia, but became a U.S. citizen as a teenager. Democratic lawmakers immediately called the president’s message racist and xenophobic. In a tweet, Pelosi wrote, quote, “when @realDonaldTrump tells four American congresswomen to go back to their countries, he reaffirms his plan to ‘Make America Great Again’ has always been about making America white again.” And —

archived recording I am frustrated, because this shouldn’t happen. You know, I have been through all sorts of emergencies, and things happen that you couldn’t anticipate. We’ve been here before. I’ve seen this movie. We’ve all seen this movie.

michael barbaro

Con Ed, the company that provides electricity to much of New York City, has apologized for a power outage in Manhattan on Saturday night that shut down subway lines, stranded people in elevators, canceled Broadway shows, and left more than 70,000 customers without power for hours.

archived recording [CHORAL MUSIC]

michael barbaro

In Midtown, after the lights went out, the cast of several shows chose to deliver their performances on the street.

archived recording [CHORAL MUSIC]

michael barbaro