michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[music]

archived recording 1 A record breaking number of women ran in the midterms and won last night.

michael barbaro

Since Democrats retook the House last November, the world has come to know “the squad.”

archived recording 2 The four far-left congresswomen. archived recording (ayanna pressley) My name is Ayanna Pressley. archived recording 3 Rashida Tlaib. archived recording 4 Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. archived recording 5 Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. archived recording 6 Call themselves the squad. archived recording 7 The squad. archived recording 8 I call them the sin squad s-i-n.

michael barbaro

Four freshmen who won their seats by taking progressive and divisive positions on everything from immigration

archived recording 9 You have called to abolish ICE. archived recording 10 We don’t need to be protected from immigrants. We need to be protected from this president.

michael barbaro

to impeaching the president.

archived recording 11 It is not if he will be impeached, but when.

michael barbaro

They’ve inspired liberal Democrats

archived recording 12 Justice is not a concept we read about in the book. Justice is about the water we drink. Justice is about the air we breathe.

michael barbaro

And given Republicans a political weapon for 2020.

archived recording 13 These freshmen members of Congress are radical and extreme. archived recording 14 It seems to me, if I may say so, that the squad now runs the show. archived recording (donald trump) These are people that hate our country. They hate our country.

michael barbaro

But

archived recording 1 People are really concerned about traffic, and people are concerned about health care.

michael barbaro

It was actually moderate Democrats, far quieter, less well-known

archived recording 2 The Affordable Care Act is here to stay. We must protect it, as we must protect Medicare.

michael barbaro

And laser focused on the few issues on which Democrats and Republicans in their district agree

archived recording 3 Overall, the two top issues are health care and the economy. archived recording 4 Infrastructure, tax reform, health care.

michael barbaro

Who were responsible for winning back the House by convincing voters who supported Trump to vote for a Democrat. Today, the moderate who embodied that flip and offers a competing vision of the party for the Democrats in 2020:

mikie sherrill

A critical role to play is to form broad based coalitions to get legislation passed in Congress.

michael barbaro

Representative Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey.

mikie sherrill

What we need to do is attack the problem and fix it. And some people, I think, would say it’s so fundamentally flawed, you have to kind of blow up the system. I would not be one of those people.

michael barbaro

It’s Monday, August 12th.

archived recording 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. archived recording 2 O.K., so, how are we on time?

michael barbaro

Back in April, my colleagues Lisa Chow and Kate Zernike began following Congresswoman Sherrill.

kate zernike All right.

lisa chow

So Kate, tell me a little bit about Mikie Sherrill.

kate zernike

Mikie Sherrill is one of these moderates who flipped the House in 2018. And she’s actually the best example of what we saw because her district had the biggest swing of Republican voters to a Democratic candidate of any district in the country. This was a district that had voted for Trump in 2016 and had been held by a Republican for 34 years. This was a really, really big win for her.

lisa chow

And so what do you think convinced people to vote for her?

kate zernike

She had military experience. She was a former Navy helicopter pilot, which took care of some of the criticism that had hobbled women who ran before, which was that they weren’t tough enough. On top of that, she’s a mother of four, and she’s a former federal prosecutor. And that trifecta really resonated with voters in her district, as it did for women with similar backgrounds who also flipped Republican districts last year.

kate zernike Oh, she’s right in front of us. O.K.

lisa chow

So back in April, we went to New Jersey to meet her.

kate zernike

Right.

mikie sherrill Hi. How are you? lisa chow I’m Lisa, by the way. mikie sherrill I’m Mikie. Nice to see you.

kate zernike

She was in her district for the week, and she was attending a listening session with local politicians at the town hall in Madison, New Jersey.

mikie sherrill Am I getting miked up? kate zernike Yes. mikie sherrill O.K.

kate zernike

It’s around 9:00 in the morning, her first meeting of the day.

speaker Good morning, congresswoman. mikie sherrill Good morning. So good to see you.

kate zernike

And we go to this large room where people are sitting in rows, and all the officials are up on the dais. They’re waiting there for Mikie.

speaker So with that, I would like to welcome, Mikie Sherrill, our congresswoman.

kate zernike

And they’re all there to talk about possibly the most important issue in this district

speaker That single lane access to 27 North from 24 West.

kate zernike

Traffic.

speaker Beyond capacity at all hours. I’ve been doing it all hours. It’s always backed up, and you know what makes it scarier

kate zernike

Mikie’s district is about 50 miles west of New York City, and many of her constituents commute into the city to work. Train tunnels into the city are about 100 years old. They desperately need repair. Trains are chronically delayed. And so you have a lot of people who just resort to driving.

speaker We have to look at the greater picture. We can all come up with Band-Aid treatments for intersections and what we want to do, traffic lights, et cetera.

kate zernike

This is one of the big issues that got Mikie elected. You just heard her constantly talking about the need to invest in new infrastructure.

mikie sherrill Hopefully the state and our mayors can come together on what the best solution is.

kate zernike

And I think the reason Mikie was such an effective candidate in what’s now considered a purple district, she spent a lot of time figuring out what people here care most about and what they agree on, so easing traffic issues, protecting health care, making sure people with preexisting conditions didn’t lose their health care, trying to get back the property tax deductions that were eliminated in President Trump’s tax bill, and what she called sensible gun control, things like universal background checks.

mikie sherrill So to the extent that we could come together

kate zernike

And she stayed on those messages pretty relentlessly. So you combine that with her military background, and you get a pretty powerful moderate candidate.

mikie sherrill And I applaud you, Mayor. I am a former Navy helicopter pilot. I have landed at night on very small ships, and I occasionally avoid that exit when you have to get over three lanes.

kate zernike

So as interested as we are in hearing Mikie talk about traffic, there’s actually another thing happening.

lisa chow

Right.

kate zernike O.K., so it’s 9:37. We just got our first news alert that Barr is about to address reporters.

kate zernike

This was April 18th. It’s the day that we’re going to see the Mueller report for the first time. So while Mikie is in this meeting in Madison, New Jersey talking about traffic

mikie sherrill Mayor, can I just cut in? Because I think you raised a really important point.

kate zernike

Attorney General William Barr is in Washington about to speak to reporters, and he’s going to release the report later in the day.

kate zernike News conference is just starting. Should we watch the video?

kate zernike

So we’re standing in the back of this meeting, listening to these local leaders talk about traffic. But we’re kind of fixated on our phones and trying to figure out what’s going on with Barr. So finally, we just leave the room, and go into the hallway, and watch the news conference on our phones.

william barr In other words, there was no evidence of the Trump campaign collusion with the Russian government’s hacking.

kate zernike

The split screen here is kind of funny.

mikie sherrill I serve in Congress with a lot of members who would really just love to have that kind of investment and development you’re talking about in the regions william barr After nearly two years of investigation, thousands of subpoenas, hundreds of warrants

kate zernike

Mikie’s approach to this whole thing seems to be pretend it’s not happening. Stick with your traffic meeting.

mikie sherrill I’m always happy to hear from the community, but I kind of prefer action mode.

kate zernike

To be fair, this meeting had been scheduled before we knew that this was the day that the Mueller report would be released.

lisa chow

Right.

kate zernike

But remember that a lot of Democrats, members of Mikie’s own party, their hopes are really riding on what’s going to be in this report. So they are going to be glued to this press conference. They’re planning their own press conferences. They’re planning their television appearances

mikie sherrill Have an avenue to fight for those federal dollars.

kate zernike

Mikie

mikie sherrill And that would be very helpful.

kate zernike

Is doing this.

speaker So I’d like to thank everyone.

kate zernike

So the meeting ends.

speaker So thank you again for coming out today.

[applause]

mikie sherrill Thanks so much.

kate zernike

And Mikie tells us that she has to go straight to another meeting in another town.

mikie sherrill I’m going to just shove a little bit in my face, so you don’t have my stomach rumbling on the microphone.

kate zernike

But she invites us to ride along, and that’s when we actually get a chance to talk.

kate zernike So we’re getting all these updates on the Mueller report, which is out. So this one says, details many links between the Trump team and Russia, but says the evidence isn’t enough to bring charges. So what are you thinking about in this moment or on this day? mikie sherrill You know, as I’ve been thinking through it, I just think it’s critical that Congress be able to see the whole report, the unredacted report, just because I think it’s a critical duty of Congress to understand in a detailed way how the Russians hacked into our election system and what we need to do to ensure that that never happens again. kate zernike And what about the obstruction angle, which is probably what a lot more Democrats are going to be focused on? Because that’s where they think the president has a little more culpability. mikie sherrill You know, I’ll have to see again what the report looks like, the unredacted version. Because the report was hundreds of pages. The Barr version was, I believe, four. But what I’m most concerned about is how we protect our democracy, how we make sure that we are running an election in 2020 that is free from any interference and beyond, really.

lisa chow

Kate, what are you thinking about as you hear Mikie talk about this report?

kate zernike

I’m thinking this is about the safest talking point imaginable. This is the point we’re hearing Republicans make, that Russia meddled in our election. And that is a big deal. But Mikie’s avoiding the most politically charged part of this, the question of whether or not the president obstructed justice.

kate zernike Members of your party, there are people on the record saying they’re pushing for it. They want impeachment. They want the president impeached. Where are you on that? mikie sherrill Well, you know, again, I want to see the Mueller report. kate zernike Right. mikie sherrill I would never as a federal prosecutor say to my F.B.I. agents, here’s the charges I want to bring, now go find me the evidence.

kate zernike

It’s one thing to campaign on local issues like traffic. It’s another thing to be in office at this moment of incredible political division and to try to almost pretend this issue doesn’t exist.

lisa chow

Why do you think she’s being so cautious?

kate zernike

You know, keep in mind for moderates, the minute they got elected in 2018, they’re immediately fighting to be reelected in 2020. It’s not like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Rashida Tlaib who won in districts that Democrats are always going to win, whose voters want to hear them talking about impeachment or supporting the Green New Deal. They’re not going to get voted out of office for talking about those things. Mikie is in a totally different position in her swing district.

lisa chow

Right.

kate zernike

So if you think about it, if you are Mikie Sherrill, why in the world would you talk about anything other than these issues that you know that your constituents all agree on? Because the minute you take a side on any divisive issue, you risk losing these voters who you spent so much time to win over, and you risk losing your seat.

lisa chow

Hm. So she’s clearly working really hard to walk this line right down the middle. And I’m wondering what she thinks about all these other Democrats who are staking out very different positions not just on impeachment, but on a whole range of issues.

kate zernike But how do you feel when so much of the attention is on Ilhan Omar and what she said about Israel or A.O.C. and what she’s saying about the Green New Deal? Does your district expect you to respond? Are you expected to respond to that in Washington? mikie sherrill So when we’re talking about things like the Green New Deal, we’re talking about something that is very broad, but very exciting and I really do think helped move the conversation of climate change to the front and center, which I think a lot of people in my district think needs to happen. kate zernike Right. mikie sherrill Now, is that something that we can get through Congress right now? I don’t think so. Can we get some really good climate change legislation through Congress, and does the momentum from the Green New Deal help us? Yeah, I think so. I guess I have more reservations about divisive comments from our caucus that divide our country even more. I ran in part because there is a real sense in my district that we need more bipartisanship, that we need more people in this country fighting for the issues that everyone in this country agrees on, not looking for ways to divide us. lisa chow Are you thinking about anything in particular? mikie sherrill I’m just you know, it’s very kate zernike Ilhan Omar? I mean. mikie sherrill Yeah, it’s using kind of every opportunity to incite people. It’s sort of not apologizing when you say something about 9/11 and aren’t clear about the harm that caused our country and what you meant by that. It’s the anti-Semitic comments that we’ve heard from my side of the aisle and let’s face it from across the aisle. And those are often unaddressed as well. We’ve let these comments derail us in a way that’s just I don’t think productive. kate zernike In your election campaign, the Republicans tried to use Nancy Pelosi against you to the extent that you had to do an ad saying, I’m not going to vote for Nancy Pelosi. You didn’t vote for Nancy Pelosi. Do you think and do you worry that in your re-election they’re going to use Ilhan Omar against you, or Rashida Tlaib against you, or A.O.C. against you? mikie sherrill I think we’re already seeing the language from the Republican Party that shows that that’s exactly where the Republican Party is headed. I think it’s very hard to tell people that I’m a socialist when I’ve served my country, when I came up through the Cold War, and I have a district that very much believes in capitalism. We’re very concerned about our markets. So I think equating me with some other members of my caucus doesn’t really resonate here. But I know that that will likely be the attack. kate zernike All right. Can you let us out? mikie sherrill Oh. kate zernike Thank you.

lisa chow

So Kate, about a month after you and I visited Mikie in her district in New Jersey

kate zernike

Mhm.

mikie sherrill I know. I know. Hi. How are you?

lisa chow

producer Rachel Quester and I went to see Mikie in Washington.

mikie sherrill I’m Mikie. Nice to see you.

lisa chow

It’s just before 8:00 on a Wednesday morning, and we meet Mikie at her apartment. When she’s in D.C., she lives in one of those modern high rise buildings.

mikie sherrill Bye. I love you, mom. pattie sherrill I love you too, honey.

lisa chow

in an apartment she shares with her mom.

pattie sherrill I’ll see you, honey. mikie sherrill A little bit. pattie sherrill See you later.

lisa chow

Her mom moved part-time to Washington to volunteer in her office.

pattie sherrill I’ll be there shortly. lisa chow So Mikie, tell me what are you doing right now. mikie sherrill So I live down the hall in an apartment building from Representative Abigail Spanberger from Virginia, and so I am going to get her. And we are going to head over to our office on the Hill.

[music]

lisa chow You live on the same floor? mikie sherrill We do. We didn’t realize that.

[knocking]

mikie sherrill But it’s great. Her husband gave us a ride home last night. So I accidentally, I accidentally took your jacket when Adam drove us home so I’m returning that. abigail spanberger Perfect. Do I need it today? mikie sherrill No, I don’t think so. It’s supposed to get up in the 70s. abigail spanberger Good morning. lisa chow Hi, I’m Lisa. This is Rachel.

lisa chow

Abigail Spanberger, like Mikie, is a moderate who flipped her district.

abigail spanberger I was actually just catching up on “The Daily” this morning.

lisa chow

Her seat had also been held by a Republican for decades. So we walk with them to work on Capitol Hill.

lisa chow Why do you think you guys get along so well? mikie sherrill Well, I think we’ve both served in somewhat similar ways in national security. So I was in the Navy. Abby was in the C.I.A. And then we have children roughly the same age. And I think you’re the oldest of three girls abigail spanberger Yes, I am. mikie sherrill And I’m the oldest of three girls. lisa chow Really? mikie sherrill Yeah. abigail spanberger Yes. mikie sherrill But we also have I mean, we share the common experience of not necessarily ever planning to run for office, deciding to run for office because we see problems that we want to fix. And so I think that we understand each other’s motivations, we understand each other’s frustrations. lisa chow Can I ask you, I mean, before we walk in? I’m just wondering if you see yourselves as a contrast to this other self-described progressive kind of squad of the Democratic Party. Do you see that there’s a moderate kind of squad that has formed? mikie sherrill No, I don’t think there is a contrast. I think it’s just people have different roles. And I think with our districts, our critical role to play is to form broad based coalitions to get legislation passed in Congress. abigail spanberger We represent a lot of people who didn’t vote for us, and that informs the way that you look at things. That informs how you understand those who disagree with you because I have a lot of constituents who disagree with me. And so that allows me to understand my colleagues who disagree with me. Districts like ours, my district didn’t fundamentally change. I just got a lot of people who historically wouldn’t have voted for a Democrat to vote for a Democrat. And in the large view of things, there’s a strong place for people to really advocate for big grandiose ideas. But we also need people to take the step of saying these are specific policy initiatives that not only do I support, but that can have legs, that I’ve gone back and forth. I know what the criticisms are. We’ve worked through them. We’ve finessed the legislation. And we’re really trying to bring a broad base of support to this particular piece of legislation. And I think that long term, when we see some of the volleying back and forth of when one party is in control, we do all these sorts of things, and then the next party is in control and they try to undo those things, that’s not sustainable. mikie sherrill And I think too many times, a Democrat will put forth a perfect bill in our eyes. And that’s the bill. And there’s no compromise, and there’s no discussion. And if you wanted to put puppies instead of small dogs, you’re out of luck. We’re not doing it. And I think the Republicans do the same thing. And so we’ve gotten to this point where we have 97 percent of people in this country agreeing that we just need universal background checks for gun purchases. That, in my district, is really non-controversial. Just about everybody agrees on that, and we can’t get that through Congress. So something’s got to change. speaker How’re you doing, ma’am? abigail spanberger I don’t know if you all have to go through the security.

lisa chow

So we arrive at Capitol Hill.

speaker Guys, you need to come this way.

lisa chow

And both of them head off to meetings.

mikie sherrill Thanks, guys. lisa chow O.K., what time is it? rachel quester It’s a quarter after 8:00. lisa chow You know where we’re going? rachel quester I think so.

lisa chow

Rachel and I make our way to the press office to get our press badges. And then we head over to Mikie’s office. And her mom is the first person we see.

pattie sherrill I will make sure she gets your message.

lisa chow

Sitting at the front desk.

pattie sherrill That’s fine. O.K. Thank you for calling. lisa chow Hello. pattie sherrill Hi, how are you? rachel quester Hello. pattie sherrill Hi. lisa chow Can you just describe what you’re doing? pattie sherrill Well, I’m Pattie Sherrill. I’m Mikie’s mom, and I volunteer here a couple days a week. And one of my chief jobs is to answer the phone. And most of the calls, believe it or not, are from constituents. And a lot of them have a very strong opinion about a certain topic. lisa chow What kind of calls come in? pattie sherrill They call about, well, the wall. And they call lisa chow Like the wall that President Trump wants to build? pattie sherrill Yes, that particular wall. But the people that call about that are mainly the people who want the wall. And we get a lot of calls about wanting to impeach Trump. They’re about evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans. lisa chow So you are getting very acquainted with her district. pattie sherrill Yes, I am.

lisa chow

Mikie’s district is one of the wealthiest districts in the country. It’s made up of rich New York City suburbs that lean blue, surrounded by farmland which leans red. And these calls coming into Mikie’s office perfectly sum up the competing views that Mikie is trying to balance.

lisa chow Do people know that they’re talking to Mikie’s mom? pattie sherrill No. Mm-mm. No. dave sherrill But if they say something mean, they’ll find out.

lisa chow

Mikie’s dad, Dave Sherrill, is also there. He’s visiting for the day.

lisa chow And tell me I mean, so her decision to go to the Naval Academy, can you kind of walk me through? dave sherrill It’s real simple. Mikie said in the fifth grade, she said, I’m going to the Naval Academy. Something put a bee in the bonnet. pattie sherrill Yeah, something made her decide. And I think from the beginning, she wanted to be a pilot. dave sherrill Yeah. lisa chow And do you remember what your reaction was, like what your feeling was about it when she first said it? pattie sherrill I think at that age, you’re just like, oh, that’s nice. Because in fifth grade, I wanted to be a nun. And by the time I was ready to go on to college, I thought there is no way that that’s going to happen. So I didn’t think much of it, to tell you the truth. lisa chow So when it started sinking in that this is what she wanted to do, what were your feelings? pattie sherrill I was kind of apprehensive about it because especially for a young woman, it’s not a normal lifestyle in so many ways. Like, for example, she was on the Teddy Roosevelt, which is a big aircraft carrier with 5,000 people, and what she did not tell us at the time is she was the only female on the ship. lisa chow She was the single pattie sherrill Woman. lisa chow Woman among 5,000 men? pattie sherrill Yeah. Yeah. lisa chow So then skipping ahead, can you tell me about when Mikie first told you that she wanted to run for Congress? dave sherrill I don’t remember her pattie sherrill Oh, I remember. Because I tend to worry too much about every little thing and worried and have a kind of a negative view of what’s going to happen. Like, the sky is falling. So when she said it, I thought, be positive, be positive, be positive. And I said, oh, wow. I wanted to know whose district it was, and she said, Frelinghuysen, and he’d been doing it for 24 years, and he was a Republican. And it was a Republican district. And I said, well, that’s great, but do you think you can win? I’m thinking to myself, you don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of winning, but I didn’t say that. That, to me, is being positive by not saying that. So she said, that’s not what matters. Somebody’s got to run, and I think I should be that person. rachel quester So had you been skeptical up to that point as well? I mean, what were you thinking? dave sherrill Yeah, I just thought it was a long shot. Because I mean, here’s a guy that’s been there for 24 years. And most of these people, they can say for life. And this guy was well funded. lisa chow And when did the scale tip? Like, what was the moment where you thought, oh, actually this could really happen? dave sherrill I think it was when Frelinghuysen decided to retire. So it was changing right at that point, I thought. And that’s when I felt like unless the opposition puts somebody unbelievable against her, she’s got a great chance. And she really blew it out. And I just, I still don’t believe it. I still occasionally wake up and think, god, is she really in Congress? And how long is this going to last? Is she going to get booted out the next election? pattie sherrill Well, she could. You never know. lisa chow Thank you so much. dave sherrill Thank you all. pattie sherrill Thank you.

lisa chow

Mikie’s been in and out of the office most of the day, but we finally catch her when she’s greeting some of her constituents.

speaker Yeah, we’re going to see the Air and Space Museum after this.

lisa chow

About two dozen sixth graders are all standing in the hallway huddled around Mikie.

mikie sherrill Hey, guys. speaker Congresswoman, I think the students have a question or two for you, and then I’m going to take the ones who haven’t seen your office, to a quick tour of up there. What is one law in state that you would change? mikie sherrill Well, so I work on laws that affect the state. But the laws that I work on are federal. So they’re not state laws, but federal laws. But they impact our state, and this is going to be a little boring, guys. But the one I would change right now is the state and local tax deduction cap. And I’m working on that. But I’m sorry, that’s super boring. I know you like, yeah. Your teachers are really happy, though. speaker Do you think we should impeach Trump or keep him? mikie sherrill So as you guys might know, Congress has constitutional duties. A lot of the work that we do is specified in the Constitution. And we have oversight duties, so I think we’re finding a good balance right now, performing our oversight duties, trying to ensure that people follow the law in the country.

lisa chow

In all of the moments that we catch her, even in a place where she could be more relaxed, in front of a bunch of kids, she’s still careful, measured, and moderate.

mikie sherrill And then I also something that kind of gets lost a little bit in this conversation, too, when we talk about the Mueller report is I’m really worried about how Russians hacked into our election system and trying to protect the 2020 election as well. speaker So guess what the Congresswoman has to go do now? Congress. What’s she going to do in Congress? Vote. All right. mikie sherrill I’m going to vote, and I guess, I’m just going to tell you guys something exciting. I’m going to go meet with the rest in the New Jersey delegation really quickly before I vote because we have one of the largest delegations in the Democratic caucus, which gives us a great deal of reach throughout the caucus and gives your delegation in New Jersey a great deal of power. So that’s pretty exciting. I’m going to go meet with them, and then I’m going to go vote. So have a great day. Enjoy the Air and Space Museum. speaker Thank you. mikie sherrill Thank you, guys. Thanks so much. speaker Thank you.

lisa chow

After the break, Kate sits down for our last interview with Mikie.

[music]

kate zernike

O.K. Ready, everyone? O.K.

mikie sherrill

Mikie Sherrill?

kate zernike

Oh, hey, Mikie. It’s Kate.

mikie sherrill

Hi, Kate. How are you?

kate zernike

I’m good. How are you?

mikie sherrill

I am good.

kate zernike

Good. And I have a phone.

mikie sherrill

O.K. I think we’d better get started then.

kate zernike

Oh, yeah. Because it’s almost 10 past, O.K. O.K., so I think a lot of Americans, a lot of listeners, look to define their politicians. Is this person a populist, a conservative, a moderate even? So can you tell us how you would define yourself?

mikie sherrill

Sure. I don’t feel like the traditional political labels clearly define me or really, a lot of people. I think I just have a deep, deep belief in this country, and our democracy, and the values that we have traditionally promoted across the world.

kate zernike

Right. But don’t some Americans want their politicians to take stronger positions? In particular, I’m thinking of progressive voters who might be listening to this. And hear that as playing it safe, as deliberately avoiding taking any kind of strong position that might label you in a way that would turn off some voters. So what do you say to that?

mikie sherrill

I think I have a very strong position. I think too many people think that focusing on jobs in the economy and the middle class might be playing it safe. But when real people’s lives are being impacted, when people are looking at a really insecure future, I don’t think that is something to be taken lightly. Who are you protecting, and what are you protecting, and what are you doing if you’re not focused on people across this country having a secure future?

kate zernike

Mhm. It sounds like what you’re saying is this is not actually a strategy. It’s just who you are and what you believe. But you and many other Democrats did flip districts with this approach, with this strategy, really. You won over people who’d never voted for Democrats before, who’d voted for Trump just two years earlier. So do you also think this is an important strategy for winning back American voters?

mikie sherrill

Well, I guess if the strategy is to try to understand the needs of your district, and to hear from as many people as possible, and really drill down on the issues that are going to make people’s lives better, yeah, I think that’s a great strategy. What we saw when we were running, a lot of us, was remarkably similar. So I don’t think it’s a strategy that we all ran on health care. We all ran on getting prescription drug costs down. I think that is because that’s a real crisis in this country right now, and it’s a crisis across this country. It was just kind of the reality on the ground. And I think what our party had maybe gotten away from in the past, I think there was a lot of telling people in this country what they needed. And I think maybe there wasn’t enough listening to what people in this country needed. And in order to flip these seats, I think we had to be so involved in our communities and listening so carefully to our communities, so that we knew what people needed, and what people were feeling, and why they were feeling that way. And then we needed to focus on what the legislation was going to be to kind of make a difference in our districts.

kate zernike

Hm. I’m pushing on this because in some ways, I think this is going to be the conversation Democrats are going to have going into 2020. Is the party going to try to appeal to the center, to try to win back people who voted for Trump? Or are they going to recognize that some Americans think the system is just fundamentally broken and that something bigger and more radical is needed?

mikie sherrill

I guess because I’ve sort of devoted my life to this country, I don’t buy that the country’s fundamentally broken, that we can’t move forward, that we can’t fix it, that we can’t create a great future. I think there is a lack of faith across America in our country and our ability to move forward. And I said this during my campaign. You look at Kennedy deciding to go to the moon and the amount that that was going to cost the economy and the amount of will that he needed to generate to do something as grand as that. And I often think now, gosh, if we wanted to do something on that scale, I think too many people think, huh, no, I don’t think we’re up for that. When you think of some of the programs like the Eisenhower Highway Program or you think of the war on poverty, all of these programs just seem to be something that Americans right now don’t have enough faith in their government to accomplish. And we have got to, as people in government, work to rebuild that. Because otherwise, we’re just not going to be on the best path forward. What we need to do is attack the problem and fix it. And some people, I think, would say it’s so fundamentally flawed, you have to kind of blow up the system. I would not be one of those people.

kate zernike

So the radical idea you have is to regain the trust of American voters.

mikie sherrill

Yeah, I guess it doesn’t sound entirely radical when you say it that way, Kate. But I will say yes. We need to develop faith in our government. I think we’ve been fighting this idea since President Reagan, the idea that government’s not the solution. It’s the problem. We have to have a government that works, and that’s efficient, and that has the trust of the American people, so that when people in government say, I think we can do something great, the American people are behind that idea.

kate zernike

Mhm. So we’ve just had the first Democratic presidential debates, and we heard a lot of these candidates staking out very progressive positions, particularly on Medicare for All, decriminalizing illegal border crossings. Does that, the sort of move to the left in those debates, make you nervous for the party?

mikie sherrill

Yes, I think it’s if we’re moving too far away from focusing on what we can do to move our economy forward, what we can do to create jobs, what we can do to create more security for the American people, that makes me nervous. The sense that the caucus is moving away from these kind of ideas, that does concern me very much. But I have to run. We have the next thing. We’re kind of on the move.

kate zernike

All right.

mikie sherrill

But I really appreciate it.

kate zernike

O.K. Mikie, thank you.

mikie sherrill

Thank you. Bye bye.

[music]

kate zernike

You know, when we first started talking to Mikie, the focus was all on the Mueller report. And a lot of Democrats really didn’t know how to proceed. Would the party break in the direction of the squad, or would it break more towards more cautious members like Mikie? Now we’ve seen the president take direct aim at the squad to paint all Democrats as socialists in exactly the way that Mikie predicted they would. Nancy Pelosi, who’s in charge of the Democrats in the House, is articulating more of a distance from super progressives. She defends them when Trump attacks them, but she’s also indicated pretty clearly that she wants voters to see that it’s the Democrats like Mikie who are the true Democratic Party. She knows that she needs more than just those four seats of the squad to keep control of the House. She needs to keep the seats like Mikie’s. So whatever you call them moderates, pragmatists the vulnerability of these Democrats from these purple places, their need to hang on is also their power.

lisa chow

Thank you so much, Kate.

kate zernike

Thank you, Lisa.

lisa chow

We’ll be right back.

michael barbaro

Here’s what else you need to know today. The Times reports that the federal prison where Jeffrey Epstein hanged himself appeared to violate its own procedures by failing to check on him every 30 minutes and by leaving him alone without a cellmate. Epstein was found dead on Saturday morning in Manhattan, where he was being held on charges of sex trafficking of minors in a case involving dozens of women. His death immediately triggered three investigations by the Justice Department, the F.B.I., and the New York City medical examiner into how he was able to kill himself just two weeks after being taken off suicide watch for a previous attempt to take his own life. His suicide could end the criminal case against Epstein by depriving federal prosecutors of a defendant. But those prosecutors said they would continue to investigate Epstein and the associates around him who they say enabled his conduct.

[music]

michael barbaro