wo1fwood Profile Blog Joined December 2010 3347 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-26 14:17:04 #1

Liquid in Future Tense: A Call for Participation by wo1fwood (gfx by shiro)

Today I'd like to briefly talk about a project that has far reaching implications for tl.net and its users. For some time I have been working on - or considering the question of - what tl.net is, what it does, and how it could grow to reach its fullest potential as a site and community that over the last number of years has bloomed with not just content about all things StarCraft, but for Hearthstone, Dota, League, Smash, Heroes, and now Counter-Strike.



I've opened this topic because I'm looking to get ideally about 100 users or more (from tl.net, liquiddota, liquidhearth, liquidlegends, yes even you causal reddit viewers) to take part in a survey/questionnaire that will show us a clearer idea of what everyone is doing on TL and how, and why. Additionally, I'll want to ask further questions/tasks for a smaller group of people as needed.



The obvious question you may be asking is why are you looking for user input like this? Just curious? Well yes I am, but that's not really answering why. Recently there's been quite a bit of discussion regarding user interface design on TL with the



So... interested in helping us out? If so simply so even if you casually visit TL your experiences could be very helpful in figuring out what we need to do, or be mindful of throughout this process.



The last thing I should probably mention is that we don't really have a time frame for when this project will be complete right now. Rebuilding TL is a complicated process as the content that we have to offer is very diverse, and the time we have to work on it can and will be a bit sporadic. We'll be updating you as things develop so you have an idea of what we're thinking about and how we're progressing, so stay tuned. :D

Today I'd like to briefly talk about a project that has far reaching implications for tl.net and its users. For some time I have been working on - or considering the question of - what tl.net is, what it does, and how it could grow to reach its fullest potential as a site and community that over the last number of years has bloomed with not just content about all things StarCraft, but for Hearthstone, Dota, League, Smash, Heroes, and now Counter-Strike.I've opened this topic because I'm looking to get ideally about 100 users or more (from tl.net, liquiddota, liquidhearth, liquidlegends, yes even you causal reddit viewers) to take part in a survey/questionnaire that will show us a clearer idea of what everyone is doing on TL and how, and why. Additionally, I'll want to ask further questions/tasks for a smaller group of people as needed.The obvious question you may be asking is why are you looking for user input like this? Just curious? Well yes I am, but that's not really answering why. Recently there's been quite a bit of discussion regarding user interface design on TL with the Announcement by Valve on the new Dota 2 UI, and this TL Redesign Thread about one persons' design exercise. While the latter was an unofficial creation, what I'm excited to say is that we've been discussing this idea of a redesign internally for some time already and wanted to let everyone know that we decided to rebuild and streamline the TL experience the best we can. In order to get it right however, we need as much data about how, what, and why you are interacting with the content and platform that is teamliquid.net (and perhaps even esports as a whole) before we make any moves in that direction.So... interested in helping us out? If so simply shoot me a PM . Please include what site you are from, how often you visit TL as a start, and whether you'd be willing to be available for more questions as we need them. Overall I'd like to get a relatively even sample size from all walks of people who visit here,your experiences could be very helpful in figuring out what we need to do, or be mindful of throughout this process.The last thing I should probably mention is that we don't really have a time frame for when this project will be complete right now. Rebuilding TL is a complicated process as the content that we have to offer is very diverse, and the time we have to work on it can and will be a bit sporadic. We'll be updating you as things develop so you have an idea of what we're thinking about and how we're progressing, so stay tuned. :D

Administrator needs a quote

KadaverBB Profile Blog Joined June 2009 Germany 25149 Posts #2 Do I still "need" to PM you eventhough we already talked about it in the staff thread? Administrator Laws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice

wo1fwood Profile Blog Joined December 2010 3347 Posts #3 nope, staff need not worry as you're covered already. Administrator needs a quote

Cricketer12 Profile Blog Joined May 2012 United States 13095 Posts #4 Interesting, I sent my PM Solemn Strike FTW l SC2 Liquibet Season 17 Winner l I am beyond imagination, succumb to madness.

Rassy Profile Joined August 2010 Netherlands 2308 Posts #5 Am interested in helping out and offering some ideas.



Have been a member for around 4-5 years I think,came to the site when I started playing starcraft and was looking for community sites. Was active in the beginning but activity did drop over the years till virtually zero. It feels as if the whole site gets less visitors these days then a few years ago though I do not have any data for that. If its the case I think the reason is the decline of starcraft 2, the release of lotv should give the site and its activity a boost again.

Maybe tl could start focus more on other games and become a gaming forum in general. It is however not easy to penetrate other games where other sides have a dominant position already.



Come to the site mostly when I like to post something on a general forum,and sometimes for specific new games I started playing,like agario recently and hearthstone a year ago. When I look at agario or even hearthstone then the lack of activity more or less made me stop posting as well. lot more people post on reddit for example. And people usually do flock to the place that has the most users. It might sound blasphemy but maybe tl should lower its standards.

The gaming forums have a sort of elite feel to it and the attitude of many posters is somewhat elite, one looks down on the official gaming forums from blizzard where "only noobs post" so to say. With gaming becoming more casual maybe users are looking for a more casual site with more casual users. Not sure if this is an issue at all but its just a thought that came to my mind.



Am open to intervieuw but I am not the most active user so I think other people will be more suited.



KobraKay Profile Joined March 2010 Portugal 3528 Posts #6



I appreciate this initiative. When I get home from work I'll probably PM you to help out with the survey. I'm a fairly busy person due to work (T_T) but I'll gladly help in what I can Well I'm registered since 2010, been visiting the site since 2006 or 2007 and I log in everyday, multiple times per day.I appreciate this initiative. When I get home from work I'll probably PM you to help out with the survey. I'm a fairly busy person due to work (T_T) but I'll gladly help in what I can CJ Fighting! (--.--)

Yhamm Profile Blog Joined December 2012 France 6490 Posts #7 "I've opened this topic is because I'm looking to get ideally about 100 users"

either you are missing "why" or "is" is too much Liquipedia We will have only each other at the last

Dagobert Profile Blog Joined July 2009 Netherlands 1691 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-26 14:26:52 #8

Also, the expression is "people from all walks of life". If you're looking for walks of people,



Since you're opt-in, you're effectively advertising the survey, which is going to give you very skewed data. You do not have a random sample, so you cannot extrapolate to the TL user group as a whole. Here's what you should do if you want (at least) halfway representative results: Send an authoritative PM to a random subset of all registered users, with a nice text and link to the survey.



Expect <1/3 to respond, expect ~20% of the responses to be incomplete; you'll end up with roughly 25% useful responses, so I'd say about 400+ invitations should do the job. You do know that you won't even get close to a "relatively even sample size from all walks of people who visit here", right?Also, the expression is "people from all walks of life". If you're looking for walks of people, this documentary is probably better suited.Since you're opt-in, you're effectively advertising the survey, which is going to give you very skewed data. You do not have a random sample, so you cannot extrapolate to the TL user group as a whole. Here's what you should do if you want (at least) halfway representative results: Send an authoritative PM to a random subset of all registered users, with a nice text and link to the survey.Expect <1/3 to respond, expect ~20% of the responses to be incomplete; you'll end up with roughly 25% useful responses, so I'd say about 400+ invitations should do the job.

Hatchet_man Profile Joined December 2013 Russian Federation 206 Posts #9 I like Dagobert's approach. But sent a pm anyway

Tngabor Profile Joined December 2013 Serbia 59 Posts #10

wo1fwood, do you need help from a design aspect?



Also, the redesign of the website would be most welcome

from most users in my opinion, for example one problem with

it is that it's too small. For this reason i've been looking

at it on 150% zoom for years now I'm a UX/UI/Interaction designer.wo1fwood, do you need help from a design aspect?Also, the redesign of the website would be most welcomefrom most users in my opinion, for example one problem withit is that it's too small. For this reason i've been lookingat it on 150% zoom for years now

Ayaz2810 Profile Joined September 2011 United States 1175 Posts #11 PM'd you. Great idea! Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer

Eyx Profile Joined December 2010 England 90 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-26 14:40:17 #12 On June 26 2015 23:20 Dagobert wrote:

You do know that you won't even get close to a "relatively even sample size from all walks of people who visit here", right?

Also, the expression is "people from all walks of life". If you're looking for walks of people,



Since you're opt-in, you're effectively advertising the survey, which is going to give you very skewed data. You do not have a random sample, so you cannot extrapolate to the TL user group as a whole. Here's what you should do if you want (at least) halfway representative results: Send an authoritative PM to a random subset of all registered users, with a nice text and link to the survey.



Expect <1/3 to respond, expect ~20% of the responses to be incomplete; you'll end up with roughly 25% useful responses, so I'd say about 400+ invitations should do the job. You do know that you won't even get close to a "relatively even sample size from all walks of people who visit here", right?Also, the expression is "people from all walks of life". If you're looking for walks of people, this documentary is probably better suited.Since you're opt-in, you're effectively advertising the survey, which is going to give you very skewed data. You do not have a random sample, so you cannot extrapolate to the TL user group as a whole. Here's what you should do if you want (at least) halfway representative results: Send an authoritative PM to a random subset of all registered users, with a nice text and link to the survey.Expect <1/3 to respond, expect ~20% of the responses to be incomplete; you'll end up with roughly 25% useful responses, so I'd say about 400+ invitations should do the job.



The way you suggest will hardly prove much better as the randomness is lost by the fact you use the 25% or less useful responses. The same people who fill in a useful response would respond to this opt in and so your data will be skewed in the same way. There is a reason it's the law to respond to government surveys, any opt in system will produce skewed data. The way you suggest will hardly prove much better as the randomness is lost by the fact you use the 25% or less useful responses. The same people who fill in a useful response would respond to this opt in and so your data will be skewed in the same way. There is a reason it's the law to respond to government surveys, any opt in system will produce skewed data.

FFW_Rude Profile Blog Joined November 2010 France 10169 Posts #13 PM sent #1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".

DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts #14 PM sent, glad to help out. "Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

Tufas Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Austria 2215 Posts #15 On June 26 2015 23:10 KobraKay wrote:

Well I'm registered since 2010, been visiting the site since 2006 or 2007 and I log in everyday, multiple times per day.



I appreciate this initiative. When I get home from work I'll probably PM you to help out with the survey. I'm a fairly busy person due to work (T_T) but I'll gladly help in what I can Well I'm registered since 2010, been visiting the site since 2006 or 2007 and I log in everyday, multiple times per day.I appreciate this initiative. When I get home from work I'll probably PM you to help out with the survey. I'm a fairly busy person due to work (T_T) but I'll gladly help in what I can





.... I am you .... I am you Where is my ACE flair

Badjas Profile Blog Joined October 2008 Netherlands 1739 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-27 07:48:04 #16 On June 26 2015 23:29 Tngabor wrote:

I'm a UX/UI/Interaction designer.

wo1fwood, do you need help from a design aspect?



Also, the redesign of the website would be most welcome

from most users in my opinion, for example one problem with

it is that it's too small. For this reason i've been looking

at it on 150% zoom for years now I'm a UX/UI/Interaction designer.wo1fwood, do you need help from a design aspect?Also, the redesign of the website would be most welcomefrom most users in my opinion, for example one problem withit is that it's too small. For this reason i've been lookingat it on 150% zoom for years now

I don't know where you get your data from, that you can say that most users think it's too small or some such?

I never have problems reading things (except occasionally on mobile, not preferred).



I like the concept of the data shown. All forum activity on the left, pro dota on the right, content in the middle.



+ Show Spoiler [whoops this became a long rant] +

My main concern is with possible improvement with discussion structure. Dota's complexity makes discussion difficult. Difficult to follow and to engage in. (All just my opinion and to some extent theorizing.) One example is the hero strategy discussion. There's so many heroes with each their own thread, but hero interaction is also very relevant as well as all the items, which could also have their own discussion. General strategy is difficult to discuss with many factors, starting with hero picks. I don't have an answer how to provide better grip for enjoyable discourse. But this would mean less graphical design, more technical design and perhaps conceptual innovation in how to structure a forum.



Compare this to starcraft, I would say that it's rather simple to discuss strategy. And this is not saying that starcraft is less of a game in terms of strategy, but as a game it builds up context over game-time in a steady fashion, where you can anchor a discussion comparatively easy to a certain time and space in a game. The most difficult part of the discussion is not being smart enough to see the better choices and understanding the ramifications in a given situation.



The last point there, the difficult part for starcraft, also holds for Dota and basically any game (right?) but dota builds up context in game-time at a stupendous rate. How are you gonna convey those things in a discussion when talking scenario's, and alternative choices with some branching. This is also why I liked the setup of



How this can relate to a LiquidDota redesign... that's up to TL in the first place

My main concern is with possible improvement with discussion structure. Dota's complexity makes discussion difficult. Difficult to follow and to engage in. (All just my opinion and to some extent theorizing.) One example is the hero strategy discussion. There's so many heroes with each their own thread, but hero interaction is also very relevant as well as all the items, which could also have their own discussion. General strategy is difficult to discuss with many factors, starting with hero picks. I don't have an answer how to provide better grip for enjoyable discourse. But this would mean less graphical design, more technical design and perhaps conceptual innovation in how to structure a forum.Compare this to starcraft, I would say that it's rather simple to discuss strategy. And this is not saying that starcraft is less of a game in terms of strategy, but as a game it builds up context over game-time in a steady fashion, where you can anchor a discussion comparatively easy to a certain time and space in a game. The most difficult part of the discussion is not being smart enough to see the better choices and understanding the ramifications in a given situation.The last point there, the difficult part for starcraft, also holds for Dota and basically any game (right?) but dota builds up context in game-time at a stupendous rate. How are you gonna convey those things in a discussion when talking scenario's, and alternative choices with some branching. This is also why I liked the setup of this and this discussion because it had limited context and can provide for entertaining thoughts.How this can relate to a LiquidDota redesign... that's up to TL in the first place



Edit: I've taken another look at the redesign and I see a good point with dropping the right bar at various places. Easy access to the pro happenings is major, but when people start browsing site and community content they already choose to explicitly ignore that info. Easy pull up of the bar might be important, or perhaps the ability to mark a calendar entry to make sure it's in a visible spot with a timer, at all times.

And conversely it might make sense, when showing a stream or calendar info, that the community bar drops away from view. It would be very orthogonal in experience. I don't know where you get your data from, that you can say that most users think it's too small or some such?I never have problems reading things (except occasionally on mobile, not preferred).I like the concept of the data shown. All forum activity on the left, pro dota on the right, content in the middle.Edit: I've taken another look at the redesign and I see a good point with dropping the right bar at various places. Easy access to the pro happenings is major, but when people start browsing site and community content they already choose to explicitly ignore that info. Easy pull up of the bar might be important, or perhaps the ability to mark a calendar entry to make sure it's in a visible spot with a timer, at all times.And conversely it might make sense, when showing a stream or calendar info, that the community bar drops away from view. It would be very orthogonal in experience. I <3 the internet, I <3 you

boxerfred Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Germany 8357 Posts #17 Of course I'm helping out!

joshie0808 Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Canada 1013 Posts #18 Would love to help! Sent PM. Cheering for Liquid & more -- Snute, TLO, Bunny, Taeja, Mana, Vortix -- Polt, Maru, Bomber, Marinelord, Dark, DRG, INnoVation, sOs, Bly, HerO

Adept Profile Joined December 2009 United States 472 Posts #19 Wouldn't mind helping out, sent in a PM! "HSC casting is essentially an LR thread read aloud." -ThomasjServo

Haighstrom Profile Joined March 2011 United Kingdom 158 Posts #20 So... interested in helping us out? If so simply shoot me a PM. Please include what site you are from



I don't get it... I'm not from... a site? Are you looking for people with website-building experience to apply to support a redesign project, or for users of this site to offer to help complete a questionnaire about how we use it?



I would be happy to fill out the questionnaire - do you want a PM? I don't get it... I'm not from... a site? Are you looking for people with website-building experience to apply to support a redesign project, or for users of this site to offer to help complete a questionnaire about how we use it?I would be happy to fill out the questionnaire - do you want a PM?

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