Radio 4 host claims off-air conversation with colleague Jon Sopel about Carrie Gracie was ‘silly banter between old mates’

This article is more than 2 years old

This article is more than 2 years old

A recording of BBC Radio 4 Today host John Humphrys making light of the gender pay gap row has left BBC management “deeply unimpressed”.

In a leaked conversation recorded before Monday’s programme, Humphrys and the BBC’s North America editor Jon Sopel discuss Carrie Gracie’s comments on the gender pay gap following her resignation as the broadcaster’s China editor on Sunday.

Gracie announced she was resigning from the post in an open letter that was published on her website. She said she was quitting her post after learning that male colleagues, including Sopel, were earning significantly more than her for roles of the same seniority.

A transcript of the conversation appears to show a phone conversation between the two men ahead of a scheduled interview on the Today show, which Humphrys was co-hosting with Gracie.



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Humphrys says: “Slight change of subject, the first question will be how much of your salary you are prepared to hand over to Carrie Gracie to keep her, and then a few comments about your other colleagues, you know, like our Middle East editor [Jeremy Bowen] and the other men who are earning too much.”

Sopel replies: “I mean, obviously if we are talking about the scope for the greatest redistribution I’ll have to come back and say well yes Mr Humphrys, but …”

Humphrys says: “And I could save you the trouble as I could volunteer that I’ve handed over already more than you fucking earn but I’m still left with more than anybody else and that seems to me to be entirely just – something like that would do it?”

Sopel, who seems to be reluctant to have the conversation, says: “Don’t …”

Humphrys interjects: “Oh dear God. She’s actually suggested that you should lose money – you know that don’t you? You’ve read the thing properly have you?”

Sopel says he has, and Humphrys goes on: “And the idea is that I’m not allowed to talk to her about it throughout the whole course of the programme. Not a word.”

Sopel then says: “I mean … can we have this conversation … I’d love to talk to you about it”, to which Humphrys replies: “Probably not now, yeah right.”

The presenter defended the conversation as “silly banter between old mates”, the Sun reported.



He told the Times: “This was what I thought was an exchange between two old friends who have known each other for 30 years and were taking the mickey out of each other. It was nothing to do with Carrie’s campaign.”

A BBC spokesman said: “This was an ill-advised off-air conversation which the presenter regrets.”

However, a source from the corporation told the Guardian that “management are deeply unimpressed” with the conversation.

Humphrys hosted Friday’s Today show with Nick Robinson – but did not report on equal pay.



On Monday, journalists who tweeted support for Gracie were blocked from presenting on-air segments about the pay row.

Miriam O’Reilly, who won an age discrimination case against the BBC after being dropped from Countryfile in 2011, said on Twitter that she was “disappointed to be stood down” from speaking on equal pay on Friday’s Today programme.

O’Reilly was leaked a copy of the recording, but says she did not pass it on to journalists at the Sun or the Times but was “glad it’s being brought to public attention”.

She said the tone of the conversation was “smug and condescending”.

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She added: “I have heard the recording and it is base – and beneath what the public would expect to hear from John Humphrys. Winifred Robinson was stood down for tweeting support for [Gracie] … I expect the same will now happen with Mr Humphrys.”

The spokesman added: “The BBC is committed to getting its pay structures right and, as we have said, we are conducting a comprehensive analysis of presenter pay.



“PwC are working with us on this to ensure an objective external assessment of how we have set pay in the past, what we need to do differently going forward, and what further action we need to take immediately. We will publish that in the coming weeks.”

Gracie’s resignation has caused a significant escalation of the pay row at the BBC. In an explosive letter to licence fee payers, Gracie said she was dismayed to discover the BBC’s two male international editors earned “at least 50% more” than their two female counterparts when the BBC was forced to disclose the salaries of employees earning more than £150,000 a year last summer.



The disclosure showed that Sopel earned between £200,000 and £249,999, while Middle East editor Bowen earned between £150,000 and £199,999.

Gracie said she was offered a 33% pay increase but rejected it, claiming she wanted equality, not more money.

“The BBC must admit the problem, apologise and set in place an equal, fair and transparent pay structure,” she said.