



Nov 19, 2016  CANADA (SUN)  Conversations wtih HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, excerpted from Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy.





Plato (427 - 347 B.C.)

Hayagriva dasa: Plato considered the material world restricted to limitations of time and space, but the spiritual world transcends both.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Hayagriva dasa: He also believed that time began with the creation of the material world. How does this relate to the Vedic version?

Srila Prabhupada: Time is eternal. The past, present, and future are three features of time, but they are relative. Your past, present, and future are not the same as those of Brahma. Brahma lives for millions of years, and within this span we may have many pasts, presents, and futures. These are relative according to the person, but time itself is eternal. Is that clear? Past, present, and future are relative according to the body, but time has no past, present, or future.

Hayagriva dasa: Plato considered material nature, or prakrti, to have always been existing in a chaotic state. God takes matter and fashions it into form in order to create the universe.

Srila Prabhupada: More precisely, Krsna sets prakrti in motion, and the products are manifesting automatically. A printer may set up a press in such a way that many magazines can be printed completely. The seeds, or bijams, are created by God in such a way that creations are manifest automatically. These seeds are God's machines. He has created these seeds only. The seed of the entire universe is coming from Him. Yasyaika nisvasita kalam athavalambya (Brahma-samhita 5.48). When God breathes, millions of seeds of universes emanate from His body, and we call this creation. When He inhales, they return, and we call this annihilation. Things are manifest or unmanifest depending on His breathing. When He exhales, everything is manifest. When He inhales, everything is finished. Only a fool thinks that God's breathing and our breathing are the same. Bhagavad-gita says:

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

par am bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." (Bg . 9.11) Even Lord Brahma and Lord Indra were bewildered to see that this cowherd boy is God Himself.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato's word for God is demiurge, which in Greek means master builder, architect, or hand-worker.

Srila Prabhupada: In Sanskrit this is called srsti-karta, but this conception is secondary. Lord Brahma is srsti-karta, and Brahma is inspired by Krsna. The original master, Krsna, is not srstikarta because He does not do anything directly. As stated in the Vedas: sva-bhaviki jhana-bala- kriya ca. "His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence." (Svetasvatara-upanisad 6. 8). As soon as He wants something done, it is actualized. Sa aiksata — sa imal lokan asrjata (Aitareya-upanisad 1.1. 1-2). When He glances at matter, creation takes place immediately. His energy is so perfect that simply by willing and glancing, everything is immediately and perfectly created. For instance, this flower is Krsna's energy. It requires a highly talented brain to color it and adjust it in such a way, but it is growing automatically. This is the way of Krsna's energy. This flower is a very small thing, but the entire cosmic manifestation is created on the same basis. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Krsna has multi-energies, fine and subtle. As soon as Krsna thinks, "This thing must come into being immediately," that thing is prepared by so many subtle energies. Krsna doesn't have to do anything with His hands. He simply desires something, and it is created. Lord Brahma is supposed to be the direct creator of the universe, but there are millions of universes and millions of Brahmas. There are also millions of suns and other luminaries. There is no limit, and all this material creation is but the energy of Krsna. Syamasundara dasa: Plato conceives of God as the essence of perfection, the supreme ideal, and the supreme good.

Srila Prabhupada: According to Parasara Muni, perfection belongs to Him who has complete knowledge, wealth, beauty, power, fame, and renunciation. God has everything in full, and there is no vacancy in Him.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato's philosophy points to a personal conception, but there is no idea of what God looks like, or what He says.

Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic literatures not only present this person but describe Him.

venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam

barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarahgam

kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham

govindam adi-purusam tarn aharh bhajami

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, whose blossoming eyes are like lotus petals, whose head is bedecked with a peacock's feather, whose figure of beauty is tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and whose unique loveliness charms millions of Cupids." ( Brahma-samhita 5.30) In this way, Lord Krsna's form and activities are concretely described. In the Vedas, everything is factual. Plato thinks that the creator may be a person, but he does not know what kind of person He is, nor does he know of His engagements.

Hayagriva dasa: Later, in The Republic, in the allegory of the cave mentioned before, Socrates states that in the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with great difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. He considers this form to be the cause of whatever is right and good. He states that without having had a vision of this form, one cannot act with wisdom, neither in his own life, nor in matters of state. Here again, form is mentioned, but not personality.

Srila Prabhupada: That is contradictory. As soon as we understand that there are instructions from God, we must understand that there is form, and when we understand that there is form, we must understand that there is personality. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna:

na tv evaham jatu nasafn

na tvam neme janadhipah

na caiva na bhavisyamah

sarve vayam atah par am

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (Bg . 2. 12) This means that in the past, present, and future, Krsna, Arjuna, and all other living entities exist as personalities and have form. There is no question of formlessness. Krsna never said that in the past we were formless and that only in the present we have form. Rather, He condemns the impersonal version that says when God takes on form, that form is illusion, maya.

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

"Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." {Bg. 7.24) In this way, the impersonalists who claim that God is ultimately formless are condemned as abuddhayah, unintelligent. When one maintains that God accepts a body composed of maya, he is called a Mayavadi.

Syamasundara dasa: For Plato, God is the ideal of every object, the ideal representation of everything. The individual soul is therefore a tiny portion of this ideal.

Srila Prabhupada: The material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world. For instance, in this material world there is love, the sex urge. This is also present in the spiritual world, but it is present in its perfection. There is beauty, and there is attraction between Krsna, a young boy, and Radharani, a young girl. But that attraction is perfection.

In this world, that attraction is reflected in a perverted way. A young boy and girl fall in love, become frustrated, and separate. Therefore this is called perverted. Nonetheless, reality is there, and in reality there is no separation. It is perfect. That love is so nice that it is increasing pleasure.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato called love in the material world lust, or sensual love. There was also ideal, Platonic love, or intellectual love. By this, one observes the soul in a person and loves that soul, not the body. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, spiritual love is factual. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita:

vidya-vinaya-sampanne

brahmane gavi hastini

suni caiva svapake ca

panditah sama-darsinah

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater [outcaste]." ( Bg . 5.18) The learned person sees all these living entities with an equal vision because he does not see the outward covering. He sees the spirit soul within everyone. When we talk to a person, we do not talk to that person's dress but to the person himself. Similarly, those who are learned do not distinguish between outward bodies. The outward body has developed according to the karma of the living entity, but it is ephemeral. It is the soul that is real.