dream-_- Profile Blog Joined April 2006 United States 1856 Posts #2 Extremely well put together, good information, easy to take in. While it is not incredibly in depth on any single subject it gives a great overview of how to play this style as a whole. One of the better guides I have seen on tl, thanks!

Tobberoth Profile Joined August 2010 Sweden 5761 Posts #3 Great guide. I've been using something similar with slightly different timings (Tang made a stream lesson about early third->roach style) and it's an extremely strong style vs FFE. I've gone back to using 2base muta because I'm a scrub and like easy wins, but I'd say this style is definitely the strongest vs Toss if you're good and I believe that if a zerg plays it well, it can't really be stopped by a toss no matter what unless they somehow get to mothership/archon.

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts #4 On March 12 2012 18:01 dream-_- wrote:

Extremely well put together, good information, easy to take in. While it is not incredibly in depth on any single subject it gives a great overview of how to play this style as a whole. One of the better guides I have seen on tl, thanks!



The guide is just meant for the basic opener, so by nature it's a basic guide, but if you have any suggestions to make it more in-depth, let me know. Thanks though!



The guide is just meant for the basic opener, so by nature it's a basic guide, but if you have any suggestions to make it more in-depth, let me know. Thanks though! On March 12 2012 18:04 Tobberoth wrote:

Great guide. I've been using something similar with slightly different timings (Tang made a stream lesson about early third->roach style) and it's an extremely strong style vs FFE. I've gone back to using 2base muta because I'm a scrub and like easy wins, but I'd say this style is definitely the strongest vs Toss if you're good and I believe that if a zerg plays it well, it can't really be stopped by a toss no matter what unless they somehow get to mothership/archon.



You're welcome.



2 base muta can be good on TDA, but I veto that map because I hate being restricted in choice, and toss can very easily counter it if they know what's up (which they know basically automatically on TDA, they just go mass blink stalker anyways, either you die if you went fast third, or it counter the mutas).



I agree though, I feel that fast third puts zerg at a lead and if they respond perfectly (and perfectly is pretty much impossible for humans i suppose), toss is behind.



mothership/archon can be dealt with. I don't think it's hard to deal with anymore - you get NP. Toss has to be very careful with their vortex and mothership usage, while zerg just needs to 'sac' one infestor and then instantly cast vortex. They just burrow around the mothership, get into position, and cast vortex on the toss army super fast. The best way to position the broodlords, I feel, is to stagger them, like siege tanks, so they don't get screwed by vortex too. You're welcome.2 base muta can be good on TDA, but I veto that map because I hate being restricted in choice, and toss can very easily counter it if they know what's up (which they know basically automatically on TDA, they just go mass blink stalker anyways, either you die if you went fast third, or it counter the mutas).I agree though, I feel that fast third puts zerg at a lead and if they respond perfectly (and perfectly is pretty much impossible for humans i suppose), toss is behind.mothership/archon can be dealt with. I don't think it's hard to deal with anymore - you get NP. Toss has to be very careful with their vortex and mothership usage, while zerg just needs to 'sac' one infestor and then instantly cast vortex. They just burrow around the mothership, get into position, and cast vortex on the toss army super fast. The best way to position the broodlords, I feel, is to stagger them, like siege tanks, so they don't get screwed by vortex too. How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

Host- Profile Joined December 2010 New Zealand 459 Posts #5 <3 you. Some things I disagree on, such as hydras to hold the sentry immortal push, I can hold that off mass roach/ling and a macro hatch, but for the most part, spot on and really really helpful, thank you.

Geiko Profile Blog Joined June 2010 France 1924 Posts Last Edited: 2012-03-12 09:28:39 #6

I also think you're a bit too focused on the 8:30 timing for the warpgate attack, I know many variations of 4/5/6/7 gate +1 timings that hit at all different times between 7:30 and 8:30 and require pretty much different answers if you want to play optimally.



Other than that, good guide that should help zergs discover the standard way of playing (rather than all the 2 base all-ins I have to face on ladder T.T)



Also, the OP would look much better with CENTER tags on the picture and subtitle Drone drilling in response to 3 pylon block is the worse thing you can do. I think taking your gas and going fast roach expand is the best thing you can do at that point.I also think you're a bit too focused on the 8:30 timing for the warpgate attack, I know many variations of 4/5/6/7 gate +1 timings that hit at all different times between 7:30 and 8:30 and require pretty much different answers if you want to play optimally.Other than that, good guide that should help zergs discover the standard way of playing (rather than all the 2 base all-ins I have to face on ladder T.T)Also, the OP would look much better with CENTER tags on the picture and subtitle geiko.813 (EU)

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts #7 <3 you. Some things I disagree on, such as hydras to hold the sentry immortal push, I can hold that off mass roach/ling and a macro hatch, but for the most part, spot on and really really helpful, thank you.



I would love to see a replay where that happened, but I've seen multiple high masters and some pros say you need hydras,and roach/ling alone isn't enough.



I would love to see a replay where that happened, but I've seen multiple high masters and some pros say you need hydras,and roach/ling alone isn't enough. Drone drilling in response to 3 pylon block is the worse thing you can do. I think taking your gas and going fast roach expand is the best thing you can do at that point.



You just don't let the pylons go down. Once they go down you're behind, and you're pretty screwed. There's little you can do to win against an opponent who doesn't make a blunder.



You just don't let the pylons go down. Once they go down you're behind, and you're pretty screwed. There's little you can do to win against an opponent who doesn't make a blunder. I also think you're a bit too focused on the 8:30 timing for the warpgate attack, I know many variations of 4/5/6/7 gate +1 timings that hit at all different times between 7:30 and 8:30 and require pretty much different answers if you want to play optimally.



It's a basic guide, but I'd love to see replays of this.



It's a basic guide, but I'd love to see replays of this. How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

Tazerenix Profile Joined December 2010 Australia 340 Posts #8 Roach warren should be taken at 7:30. You can take it earlier if you see no gas at the Toss natural. If Toss makes any sort of early zealot aggression, like double gate, you are better off using lings - don't make a roach warren earlier just to deal with such pressure. However, if you see lots of gas at Toss natural, or a Stargate opener, you can take your roach warren later.



I strongly disagree. 2 gate +1 zealot pressure outright kills a Zerg who doesn't get roaches as defence. 6 zealots with +1 attack hitting your third at 7 minutes can't be defended with just lings, and if you try, as long as the Protoss doesn't mess up micro and gets good positioning, you will lose your third base, depending on how many lings you suicide you could lose your natural and hence the game also. The only way you can defend the 2 gate +1 Zealot pressure with lings is if the Protoss is silly and lets you get surrounds on single zealots before he reaches a critical mass. I strongly disagree. 2 gate +1 zealot pressure outright kills a Zerg who doesn't get roaches as defence. 6 zealots with +1 attack hitting your third at 7 minutes can't be defended with just lings, and if you try, as long as the Protoss doesn't mess up micro and gets good positioning, youlose your third base, depending on how many lings you suicide you could lose your natural and hence the game also. The only way you can defend the 2 gate +1 Zealot pressure with lings is if the Protoss is silly and lets you get surrounds on single zealots before he reaches a critical mass.

Bearwidme Profile Joined August 2011 Australia 57 Posts #9 Could you elaborate on the overlords coming too early (or 2 at a time) costing you 3-4 drones? If you're on 3 hatches with ~10 lava coming off each (lava that goes towards supply), surely at some point you need to produce more than 1 overlord at a time?



I also find it tough to do spinecrawler pushes with broods etc on maps with big centers (antiga), and will often lose to maneuverable toss armies. Is there a different late game composition that is viable? Or do you just have to spread creep and push painfully slowly.

ELYSiUMlol Profile Joined November 2011 United States 89 Posts #10 Your 8:00 benchmarks just made me feel really good about my macro because I'm regularly able to get 75 by 8:00, as that's the same exact benchmark I use.



Unfortunately my early game macro is the only decent part of my play or I wouldn't be mid masters. bay life

Tobberoth Profile Joined August 2010 Sweden 5761 Posts Last Edited: 2012-03-12 10:35:30 #11 On March 12 2012 19:12 Tazerenix wrote:

Show nested quote +

Roach warren should be taken at 7:30. You can take it earlier if you see no gas at the Toss natural. If Toss makes any sort of early zealot aggression, like double gate, you are better off using lings - don't make a roach warren earlier just to deal with such pressure. However, if you see lots of gas at Toss natural, or a Stargate opener, you can take your roach warren later.



I strongly disagree. 2 gate +1 zealot pressure outright kills a Zerg who doesn't get roaches as defence. 6 zealots with +1 attack hitting your third at 7 minutes can't be defended with just lings, and if you try, as long as the Protoss doesn't mess up micro and gets good positioning, you will lose your third base, depending on how many lings you suicide you could lose your natural and hence the game also. The only way you can defend the 2 gate +1 Zealot pressure with lings is if the Protoss is silly and lets you get surrounds on single zealots before he reaches a critical mass. I strongly disagree. 2 gate +1 zealot pressure outright kills a Zerg who doesn't get roaches as defence. 6 zealots with +1 attack hitting your third at 7 minutes can't be defended with just lings, and if you try, as long as the Protoss doesn't mess up micro and gets good positioning, youlose your third base, depending on how many lings you suicide you could lose your natural and hence the game also. The only way you can defend the 2 gate +1 Zealot pressure with lings is if the Protoss is silly and lets you get surrounds on single zealots before he reaches a critical mass.

You should see the zealots coming, what Tang recommends is putting down spines. Depending on map, you might be forced to put spines on both your nat and your third, but it's worth it since 6 zealots with +1 is a huge investment.



2 spines at nat and third is 400 minerals (add the drones), which will easily hold 6 zealots when you add the fact that there's a queen. A small strikeforce of lings added to that and he will do 0 damage. It's fine for you to invest more since the toss not only wasted 600 minerals on zealots, he also wasted minerals AND gas on the upgrade, and he wasted a ton of chronoboost on forge and gateways. You should see the zealots coming, what Tang recommends is putting down spines. Depending on map, you might be forced to put spines on both your nat and your third, but it's worth it since 6 zealots with +1 is a huge investment.2 spines at nat and third is 400 minerals (add the drones), which will easily hold 6 zealots when you add the fact that there's a queen. A small strikeforce of lings added to that and he will do 0 damage. It's fine for you to invest more since the toss not only wasted 600 minerals on zealots, he also wasted minerals AND gas on the upgrade, and he wasted a ton of chronoboost on forge and gateways.

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts #12 I strongly disagree. 2 gate +1 zealot pressure outright kills a Zerg who doesn't get roaches as defence. 6 zealots with +1 attack hitting your third at 7 minutes can't be defended with just lings, and if you try, as long as the Protoss doesn't mess up micro and gets good positioning, you will lose your third base, depending on how many lings you suicide you could lose your natural and hence the game also. The only way you can defend the 2 gate +1 Zealot pressure with lings is if the Protoss is silly and lets you get surrounds on single zealots before he reaches a critical mass.



I disagree, but okay.



I disagree, but okay. Could you elaborate on the overlords coming too early (or 2 at a time) costing you 3-4 drones? If you're on 3 hatches with ~10 lava coming off each (lava that goes towards supply), surely at some point you need to produce more than 1 overlord at a time?



I meant that by making that overlord early, at 8:00 you will be X short than normal.



When you hit about 60 supply, that's when you need to have overlapping overlords (1 started while one is almost done).



I meant that by making that overlord early, at 8:00 you will be X short than normal.When you hit about 60 supply, that's when you need to have overlapping overlords (1 started while one is almost done).

Your 8:00 benchmarks just made me feel really good about my macro because I'm regularly able to get 75 by 8:00, as that's the same exact benchmark I use.



Then you are doing good!



Then you are doing good! I also find it tough to do spinecrawler pushes with broods etc on maps with big centers (antiga), and will often lose to maneuverable toss armies. Is there a different late game composition that is viable? Or do you just have to spread creep and push painfully slowly.



You should have changelings all over the map so you know where toss is moving. Mass stalkers can be a pain but eventually he'll have to fight you. You should have changelings all over the map so you know where toss is moving. Mass stalkers can be a pain but eventually he'll have to fight you. How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

AdrianHealey Profile Joined January 2011 Belgium 480 Posts #13 Could you give an overview of how your supply evolves (awkward 2 gate proxy zealot or similir shenanigans not withstanding) in order to have +60 supply at the 8.00? I'm talking drones, zerglings, queens, spawn larva and overlords.



That would be great. I love.

Decendos Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 1325 Posts #14 AWESOME guide, especially the scouting part and identifying the build of the toss.



do you have any indicator on +1 4gate or do you just take roach warren at 7:00 if toss hasnt taken any gas at the natural at that time?

shadymmj Profile Joined June 2010 1881 Posts Last Edited: 2012-03-12 10:54:31 #15



It's pretty much the "safe" PvZ macro build if your macro and gamesense is spot on and you know when you need colossi quickly. I don't think there's a way for Zerg to get cheap wins (via all-ins or eco cheesing) against that unless they start using aggressive 2/3 base timings to shift the metagame. In other words prepare yourself for a real macro war.



Also i dont understand how you can attempt to deny his third on most maps other than crapolopolis (correct me if i'm wrong) with mass lings, i mean they're cheap, but just not very good against VR + zealot/sentry, and the sentry count doesn't have to be very high. it would basically be a waste of minerals or a waste of larvae. This is kinda outdated at masters level and above, because it's just not that great against the recently popular 1sg gateway into secure 3rd base...umm, this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708 It's pretty much the "safe" PvZ macro build if your macro and gamesense is spot on and you know when you need colossi quickly. I don't think there's a way for Zerg to get cheap wins (via all-ins or eco cheesing) against that unless they start using aggressive 2/3 base timings to shift the metagame. In other words prepare yourself for a real macro war.Also i dont understand how you can attempt to deny his third on most maps other than crapolopolis (correct me if i'm wrong) with mass lings, i mean they're cheap, but just not very good against VR + zealot/sentry, and the sentry count doesn't have to be very high. it would basically be a waste of minerals or a waste of larvae. There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts #16

Could you give an overview of how your supply evolves (awkward 2 gate proxy zealot or similir shenanigans not withstanding) in order to have +60 supply at the 8.00? I'm talking drones, zerglings, queens, spawn larva and overlords.



That would be great.



I specified it in the guide, but to put it all in one place:



14 pool

16-21 hatch, 4 lings

Queens as necessary

25-30 Third

2 x gas ~ when third is done

7:00 evo

7:30 roach warren, 3 x overlord sacs

8:00 60+ supply

Making overlords is just being super careful. Like 34/36 instead of 31-33. Even at the 46 supply you dont need to start 2 overlords at once. You go to like 50/54. Then after that you need to be very careful, because of injects, but start an overlord when the 1st one is nearing completion. At about 60 you are doing like 1 overlord and starting the next very soon afterwards.



I specified it in the guide, but to put it all in one place:14 pool16-21 hatch, 4 lingsQueens as necessary25-30 Third2 x gas ~ when third is done7:00 evo7:30 roach warren, 3 x overlord sacs8:00 60+ supplyMaking overlords is just being super careful. Like 34/36 instead of 31-33. Even at the 46 supply you dont need to start 2 overlords at once. You go to like 50/54. Then after that you need to be very careful, because of injects, but start an overlord when the 1st one is nearing completion. At about 60 you are doing like 1 overlord and starting the next very soon afterwards. do you have any indicator on +1 4gate or do you just take roach warren at 7:00 if toss hasnt taken any gas at the natural at that time?



I'm not sure what you are referring to. With a 7:30 roach warren, maybe a bit sooner if you see no gas, you should be able to delay with lings or a spine until roaches pop. I'm not sure what you are referring to. With a 7:30 roach warren, maybe a bit sooner if you see no gas, you should be able to delay with lings or a spine until roaches pop. How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

ELYSiUMlol Profile Joined November 2011 United States 89 Posts #17 One question I do have is how you feel about spine crawlers in the early-mid game of this matchup. I feel like one spine at the third is a good investment if you know they have a zealot timing coming, but is it better to just make earlier roaches and drone a bit harder to make up for them? bay life

Decendos Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 1325 Posts #18 On March 12 2012 19:54 Belial88 wrote:



Show nested quote +

do you have any indicator on +1 4gate or do you just take roach warren at 7:00 if toss hasnt taken any gas at the natural at that time?



I'm not sure what you are referring to. With a 7:30 roach warren, maybe a bit sooner if you see no gas, you should be able to delay with lings or a spine until roaches pop. I'm not sure what you are referring to. With a 7:30 roach warren, maybe a bit sooner if you see no gas, you should be able to delay with lings or a spine until roaches pop.



7:30 is much too late i think. that means your roaches pop at 8:50 and +1 4 gate hits at 7:45 with zealots two-shotting your lings.



you´ll need your RW at 7:00 vs no gas natural. even if you hold it with RW at 7:30 you will need SO many lings that could be drones, its more economic to get RW at 7:00 vs no gas natural. 7:30 is much too late i think. that means your roaches pop at 8:50 and +1 4 gate hits at 7:45 with zealots two-shotting your lings.you´ll need your RW at 7:00 vs no gas natural. even if you hold it with RW at 7:30 you will need SO many lings that could be drones, its more economic to get RW at 7:00 vs no gas natural.

ThomasHobbes Profile Joined October 2010 United States 197 Posts #19 Great guide here, your advice (especially on pro-level macro) has really helped me refine my ZvP.



Honestly, I haven't seen any other zerg poster who puts the effort in that you do, keep up the great work.



shadymmj - I feel those builds are outdated for a reason. Getting collossus before the 3rd is up (I'm not mistaken?) is inviting a responsive zerg to saturate 3 bases, get up roach / hydra / corrupter, and roll over you when you try to move out. I feel like I've been put in such a great position against Protoss who trust a few collossus more than economy. "The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts Last Edited: 2012-03-12 11:44:26 #20 One question I do have is how you feel about spine crawlers in the early-mid game of this matchup. I feel like one spine at the third is a good investment if you know they have a zealot timing coming, but is it better to just make earlier roaches and drone a bit harder to make up for them?



I don't think spines are a good idea. I never see pros do it either. There's just no reason to. Any zealot or stalker pressure, you can see from a mile away, and make lings to deal with, much more cost effectively.



I don't think roaches are a good idea either. You make roaches to deal with warp gate, not gateway.



I don't think spines are a good idea. I never see pros do it either. There's just no reason to. Any zealot or stalker pressure, you can see from a mile away, and make lings to deal with, much more cost effectively.I don't think roaches are a good idea either. You make roaches to deal with warp gate, not gateway. 7:30 is much too late i think. that means your roaches pop at 8:50 and +1 4 gate hits at 7:45 with zealots two-shotting your lings.



You should have a spine and lings to deal with such a push. You can throw down the roach warren at 7:00 to help. I know +1 zealots are a pain, but I think taking advantage of 3 hatch larva inject and pumping lings, with the support of a spine and queen, would be better.



I just don't see zergs ever put down a warren before 7:30, and putting it down earlier kind of hurts your econ. Even if you go roaches, your econ is still developing, so I don't think you can really get enough roaches out to deal with just 6 zealots. It's great to get some roaches, but you are primarily using lings, and then using them to delay long enough for the spine or roaches to come. I mean, 3 roaches just isn't going to be enough. You gotta use lings i think.



But going 7:00 roach warren to deal with no gas toss, I think that's perfectly reasonable.



You should have a spine and lings to deal with such a push. You can throw down the roach warren at 7:00 to help. I know +1 zealots are a pain, but I think taking advantage of 3 hatch larva inject and pumping lings, with the support of a spine and queen, would be better.I just don't see zergs ever put down a warren before 7:30, and putting it down earlier kind of hurts your econ. Even if you go roaches, your econ is still developing, so I don't think you can really get enough roaches out to deal with just 6 zealots. It's great to get some roaches, but you are primarily using lings, and then using them to delay long enough for the spine or roaches to come. I mean, 3 roaches just isn't going to be enough. You gotta use lings i think.But going 7:00 roach warren to deal with no gas toss, I think that's perfectly reasonable. Honestly, I haven't seen any other zerg poster who puts the effort in that you do, keep up the great work.



Thanks. I think most people think I just 'argue' or something. I just brush people the wrong way because I actually believe in what I say and am perfectly happy to be proven wrong, and that kind of confidence just seems to piss a lot of people off. I appreciate it though, I know you are much higher level than me so I'm glad you could find some use. Thanks. I think most people think I just 'argue' or something. I just brush people the wrong way because I actually believe in what I say and am perfectly happy to be proven wrong, and that kind of confidence just seems to piss a lot of people off. I appreciate it though, I know you are much higher level than me so I'm glad you could find some use. How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

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