Talking Sex with Grandma

Young women speak with their grandmothers about intimacy before the sexual revolution

By Nancy Casas, Emily Summerhayes, and Amber Hubert

Nancy Casas (age 24) with her grandmother Graciela Alvarez Guerrero (age 72)

It’s hard for me to understand how someone could never speak or hear about sex until they got married. Sex surrounds my generation; at the click of a button I can access highly detailed instructions of the top 10 sexual positions. And yet, my grandmother Graciela Alvarez Guerrero had to just figure it all out. She was born on November 19, 1943 in the small Mexican village of Chilchota.

Nancy Casas: When did you first find out about sex?

Graciela Alvarez Guerrero: I was 21 years old when I first discovered what sex was, right after getting married. I had never talked about sex with anyone, not even with my own mother. Since my husband had previous experience with a past girlfriend, he was the first to ever teach me anything about sex. I, on the other hand, was a virgin and was never able to learn about sex anywhere. No matter where you’d go, it was just never spoken of. Not at home and especially not in public.

What do you think society expected from you as a woman?

I had to be an honest and “pure” woman that was subject to discipline, meaning a virgin until marriage. There were women who would lose their virginity to their boyfriends, but after having sex, he would never marry her. Even if he was her first sexual partner, he’d still not wed her because he believed if she easily slept with him, she’d easily sleep with anyone else as well. She then would never get married and would be shunned by the entire village. She would need to leave and move far away to an area where no one knew her just to escape all the criticism and judgment.

Why were most women not allowed to have jobs?

At that time, women were not permitted to work because it was intended for a man to work. The idea was a man would support a woman and the woman would cater to the man. Catering to the man included doing the entire household work, leaving no time for a job. We were expected to cook and serve him food, wash his clothes, bear children, be submissive, and have sex with him whenever he wanted. Everything we did was for our husband.

Graciela Alvarez Guerrero with her husband Mariano in Southern California

If most women like yourself did not know about sex until marriage, was sex pleasurable?

When I say I didn’t know anything about sex, I really mean I knew absolutely nothing about sex. Prior to getting married, I was terrified and didn’t know what to expect. At first I didn’t even know how to orgasm, until many years later when I began to learn more about my body. In the beginning, sex revolved around him and his pleasure. Once he reached an orgasm, that was it and we were done. As the years passed by, newer expectations arose. My husband and I began to realize that the idea about sex we had was completely wrong. He accepted that sex should also be for the woman and so he began to focus on my pleasure as well.

What do you think about having more than one sexual partner?

Times have changed and sex is now more openly accepted; however, I still don’t agree with having different sexual partners. That opens the door to infidelity. Apart from all the sexually transmitted diseases, I think a woman should be faithful to the man she loves. If in a relationship there is a divorce or infidelity, then a woman has every right to find a new man to be happy with. However, faithfulness and loyalty to one man, the man she loves, is important. I don’t think having multiple partners and one night stands are acceptable. In my opinion, that can ruin a woman’s reputation. A woman should value herself and her body.

Emily Summerhayes (age 23) with her grandmother Pauline Shirley (age 76)

I never thought my grandmother would shy away from any topic of conversation. She’s shared personal stories with audiences around the world as one of the first female presidents of Toastmasters International, a global nonprofit founded in the 1920s to help aspiring leaders speak in public effectively. She went on to found Women of Visionary Influence, an organization dedicated to empowering women. But she never talked about sex and especially sex for pleasure with anyone. She was born in 1939 and grew up on a farm in Illinois as the youngest of 12 children. It wasn’t until the sexual revolution brought sweeping contraception innovations that she found new possibilities for intimacy in her life.

Emily Summerhayes: How old were your parents when they had their first child?

Pauline Shirley: Well, they got married when mom was 16 and dad was 32.

So she was having babies for — math, hmm — 23 years. Is that correct? Wow. You said you didn’t talk to Gramsie much about sex or personal things. Did you talk to your older sisters about sex, did you ever ask them?

A little bit, but not a lot either, you know. I would think what I learned about sex was learned from… I don’t know what it was learned from [laughs].

Pauline Shirley at 13 years old sitting on her future husband’s car in Florida after Christmas in 1952

Did you learn about it in school?

A little bit, not much. We never had any of those programs that our parents had to sign a slip for us to be in a sex education class. We just sort of learned it on the street, so to speak. Or learned it as life was unfolding. I must have been about 13 [when] my brother Jules gave me a book about sex. What I remember most of all about what I read in that book was that the chance of you becoming the exact person you are is so rare because there are how many thousands of little sperms out there floating around trying to swim toward that egg. And [it’s] very rare that you turn out to be the person that you are. And that’s what amazed me. You know, I knew a little bit about sex but I didn’t know a lot about it.

Do you remember talking about or learning about the idea that sex could be for pleasure and not just for making babies?

No, I don’t remember ever talking about that.

What about when you were older?

Oh yes, you learned about it. But you didn’t talk about it.

So we talked about this a little bit earlier, I wanted to hear more about when you were married. Were there any books you read about marriage, about being a wife?

I think I told you a little bit about this the other day but it was much later on. That book came out about how and what a woman should do to please your husband, you know, and my group of sorority friends we laid around, read and laughed and giggled at it. You know it was so ridiculous. I believe the sexual revolution came about because of the pill. Well, two reasons — it was because of the pill and because women were getting tired of not being respected for their brain and so the pill gave them freedom. They had choices, you know? Which has been very good. I think it was a long time coming.

Pauline Shirley and her husband J.D. with their daughter Terri

When were my mom and Uncle Johnny born?

Your mom was born in ’57 and your uncle Johnny was born in ’59. And when Johnny was 16 months old, Grandpa went to Korea for a year. And when he came back from Korea is when I went on the pill.

It was the pill that opened the door to freedom, gave [women] control over their life in general.

Women could actually have some peace of mind.

And let’s take that a step further. You talked a little bit about the pleasure of sex. See, I think that helped add to the realization you could enjoy it more because you didn’t have to worry about getting pregnant.

Amber Hubert (age 35) with her grandmother Evelyn Gardner (age 92)

The myth of sex loomed large as an adolescent. As a young child, I had an idea of what sex was, a hunch that it was a special thing, maybe even an event that existed between two people, and that our “private” parts were private for a reason. As I got older, no matter what positions I learned about, or what techniques were whispered, I knew I would never fully know until I experienced it. And now, as an adult, if I want to know more there are seemingly infinite resources available. This was not the case for my 92-year-old grandmother Evelyn Gardner. She grew up on a farm in the 1930s in St. Cloud, Minnesota.

Evelyn Gardner poses at the Sears Portrait Studio

Amber Hubert: When did you first find out about sex?

Evelyn Gardner: My mother never talked to me about sex besides to say not to have it. I went with one boy when I was, oh, 20 years old or so, before I met my first husband but we only kissed. He wanted more but I just didn’t feel that way about him, nice as he was. So, it wasn’t until I married your grandfather that I learned anything. You could say we learned it together.

What do you think society expected from you as a woman?

I grew up on a farm in Minnesota. We had to help mother out and do our daily chores to contribute. And boy, was it cold! Then, I moved to Seattle at 19 years old and worked on the pier in downtown Seattle. All the men were at war, so the women had to work. I was lucky though and after that, I got to raise my children and stay home and then have a career as a machinist, which isn’t exactly a feminine job. But I just loved working with my hands. I guess you could say I got the best of both worlds.

I don’t think you should have more than one sexual partner at the same time and you shouldn’t be promiscuous but life does happen

What do you think about having more than one sexual partner?

I don’t think a man should be allowed to have multiple wives. Some religions seem to encourage that and I don’t really see the benefit for the woman. It’s much better for the man that way. I don’t think you should have more than one sexual partner at the same time and you shouldn’t be promiscuous but life does happen. Sometimes, people get divorces and yes, that means they will have more than one partner. And that’s OK.

What about if a woman had multiple husbands at the same time?

No, I don’t think that should be allowed. But I don’t know any woman who would want that. One is enough!

The wedding photo of Evelyn Gardner and her second husband Floyd Gardner

Do you think sex before marriage is OK?

It definitely was not OK when I was younger but it still happened with some women. If a woman was too easy though, a man wouldn’t want her and he certainly wouldn’t marry her. Now, times are different. However, women today need to be careful to not move too fast even though it is more acceptable now to have sex before marriage. A man still likes a chase.

Do you think it’s OK to be gay?

I don’t care if you’re gay or if you like a man and a woman, whatever makes you happy. It doesn’t bother me. Everyone should have the right to get married and love who they love. I have met many gay men that I liked. They had good hearts. Some, I wish they weren’t gay because they were so nice!

When you were sexually active, did you enjoy sex?

Honestly, I was very scared at first that it would hurt. But over time, you learned to relax and you got more comfortable and you enjoyed it more and more, though I think men always enjoy sex a little bit more than women. When you love a person, you want him to be happy. I was so lucky with grandpa. He wanted me to be happy, too.

Nancy Casas is a freelance writer based in Los Angeles, California. She’s currently writing a book about the life of her grandmother Graciela Alvarez Guerrero. Follow her on Twitter.

Emily Summerhayes grew up in South Jersey surrounded by Philadelphia sports fans and Wawas, but only recently found out she has an accent. She and her grandmother, who she is named after, have a special bond and often share life experiences. She works in television production in Los Angeles.

Amber Hubert is a freelance writer based in Los Angeles. She has the cutest grandma in the whole wide world. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram.