Wingull is a "potent" mon because of its typing, movepool, and speed; Wingull's counters either lose to a burn or are not viable; Wingull meets the criteria of being "unhealthy" under smogon tiering policy because its attacks have a 30% to burn or confuse its counters which makes lots of them unable to do their jobs; Things that are unhealthy and good are banworthy; and Therefore, Wingull is banworthy.

Smogon Tiering Policy said:



This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.

This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.

"Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do. IV.) Probability management is a part of the game. Click to expand...

dcae said:

These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame. IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent. Click to expand...

Smogon Tiering Policy said:

These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.

This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity. [Mostly irrelevant]

This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly . The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.

When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first . We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first. IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent. Click to expand...

I guess my first post was optimistic because our benchmark for banning things has historically already been so much higher than Wingull to the point where it is an absurd thought to me.That being said, it seems no one else is going to reply to dcae, so I will do it while on my poop breaks over the next few days.I don't feel the need to break dcae 's post up into little bits because I believe it's easy enough to summarize the 3 billion words into a few sentences as follows:I think I covered it all there but feel free to let me know if i missed anything.Turning our attention to point 1, which you state that Wingull is "potent" because of its typing, movepool and speed. I do not believe this deserves much of a reply because to me you haven't even aimed to cover the threshold of something being broken. I think this was also done deliberately as you had other reasons to ban Wingull. The specific points I feel you are overselling, however, are its typing and its movepool.Yes, offensively, flying/water is amazing, but Wingull's stats, other than it's Speed, are underwhelming. For its water STAB, it is not Hydro Pump that it gets. It's strongest special water-type attack is Scald. I am not going to pretend that Scald isn't a good move, but it is not a powerful one. It does not make use of its offensive water-typing because it still needs to 2HKO things that it should either be checking or are very threatening and can force it out. Here's an example: 236 SpA Wingull Scald vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mudbray: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKOPossible damage amounts: (14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20). It's fairly obvious from the extensive time spent on discussing Scald burns that we know the calcs against neutral targets are also very underwhelming (doesn't do any of this: OHKO mag, 2HKO pawn, 3HKO tirt, etc.) This also makes the Water-type Zmove underwhelming and nothing more than a lure.Second, it's flying-type attack is Hurricane. I don't need to remind anyone here that Hurricane misses 30% of the time. You know how you're arguing that 30% for scald is like, so problematic? Well that logic goes both ways. On paper, Hurricane is also a powerful attack but I really want to drill home the point that Wingull is fucking weak. People really overestimate how much damage this does. So much emphasis is put on its ability to beat the infamous foo foong core. But does it really?236 SpA Wingull Hurricane vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKOPossible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)236 SpA Wingull Hurricane vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKOPossible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)These mons don't exactly take much chip damage due to their abilities, so dropping them to 20 from 25 and 23 respectively is very difficult. You can hit them with knock off, obviously, but that a ridiculous argument to make not only because it applies to so many Pokemon, but because a ton of LC games are decided by what tanks the knock offs and it's almost never a good idea for it to be Foongus, and Foo is usually used as a last resort if not needed.Defensively, flying/water is solid but has a ton of drawbacks made even more evident by its stats. You mention that it has a resistance to fighting and immunity to ground. Well that's awesome, but does it actually matter? As a fighting-check, Wingull loses to Timburr's Knock + Mach Punch, is OHKOed by Scarfoo's HJK (or 2HKOed by bulk foo and fails to OHKO back without SSSS), OHKOed by Croagunk's Sludge Wave and Scraggy's +1 Knock after SR. It's defensive typing is only useful for avoiding being RK'd by Mach Punch, but that's basically it. As Ground immune, it can in theory switch into Earthquake, but it doesn't KO Mudbray or Drilbur back and is cleanly OHKOed by Rock Slide. Onix is rarely at +0 Speed or is Sturdyjuice, which also cleanly beats Wingull if it comes in on EQ. It's EQ immunity vs. Diglett is only helpful for being able to switch out (and risk Pursuit or Sub), but it is also cleanly OHKOed after SR by Rock Slide.I don't want to spend too much time discussing the "multidude of sets" because I think it's generally just a weak argument being thrown around once you think about it. TheLastly, it's Speed is good but it's also overstated. It's a very weak Choice Scarfer (though i like it as a lure), and tons of mons hit 21+ that can plainly OHKO it because they have the attack stat to back it up. Life Orb and Specs are not really options for Wingull (again, i do also like LO as a lure) because it relies so much on zmoves to be viable.Also, Elekid is viable and outspeeds it, I don't know if you just forgot about that Pokemon or actually think it's not.There are four notable false premises that you base this argument on.First, you disqualify Pokémon like Chinchou and Frillish as either not viable or crippling for team building. You put way too much emphasis on the ongoing jokes that are the viability rankings and usage stats. If Wingull was as busted as it's being made out to be, you would see these Pokémon literally everywhere and they would be rated higher. Frillish is an unbelievable Pokémon and is very underrated and has more uses than just spinblocking. Additionally, chinchou is essentially only not used because of Diglett+Foongus, both of which we should be talking about before even considering banning Wingull. I would even go as far to say as the nonexistence of Chinchou as a Wingull counter is as conclusive proof of consensus that Diglett and Foongus are more prevalent than Wingull as you can get.I think you're also forgetting other Pokémon that stop Wingull like Munchlax and less common sets like Evio Vullaby.The second false premise is basically that you think because the Mons can't trap they aren't adequate counters. Especially with a frail Mon weak to SR, forcing out is enough to counter. It can't come in that often without a sac or uturn. Additionally, with respect to Tirt, its ability to use SR and force Wingull out makes it even better.The third false premise is that you state that Scald burning stops Mons from countering Wingull. First of all, this is not exactly likely to happen and only has a chance of happening with Scald on the switch. As discussed above, hurricane is essentially needed to KO common mons, so this is not an easy prediction to make. There are sets that Tirt and Pawn, for example, can run that let it beat Wingull after a burn. It's just that it's not worth it. I mean, Tirt that doesn't use enough attack to beat Wingull while burned is probably not worth using. It needs attack investment to do other things as well, like guarantee the KO against Diglett with jet. Obviously Sturdyjuice Magnemite does not like Scald burns. But it doesn't stop its ability to counter Wingull because Wingull only does like 78% max with Scald and it has the added advantage of being able to switch into foongus with impunity, which you did not touch on.The fourth false premise is this nonsensical analysis of SSSS. This is a one time use move. You don't bypass those counters you listed automatically because of this z move. You have at best a 50/50 shot to nail pawn, Tirt or even Onix which can still counter Vullaby after tanking this attack instead of one of the many Mons you rely on it to beat. And some of them use protect which is even more difficult. Even if you do get the prediction right, it also means you cant use it again. You can't ohko foongus or foo if you use SSSS on a juice ferroseed that you luckily got to 75 without popping juice or something like that. Your zmove Pokémon should get a KO most of the time. This is the same with almost every zmove Pokémon. Plus, once you've used Wingull as your zmove Mon, you're unable to use a zmove on other Mons.Here it really seems like all you have done is convince me that Wingull is annoying the same way many luck-based aspects of this game are annoying.The fact that it causes 50/50s with Protect is a weak argument. This is literally what the game is and what the move does regardless of the situation. You literally predict every turn. The 50/50 from protect can literally be applied to any Pokémon that uses protect Vs a scarfer.And I think you've done your argument a disservice by bringing up the fact that hurricane can miss. Unhealthy aspects of the metagame require that they at least be broken on some level. For example, swagplay Vs confuse ray. I don't think you've adequately shown that Wingull is good enough to be banned despite its annoying luck components. Reliance on Hurricane hitting is a clear negative.I also don't think you've adequately shown how Wingull is morethan some asshole using parafusion or flinching, though i appreciate that you made a clear attempt to distinguish the two by saying that Wingull just does this by nature of its best moves rather than dedicate an entire strategy to %'s. It's just simply not different enough, and I would say not even "better. I think there are just as many times when a pawn iron head flinch or a Vullaby Dark Pulse/Air Slash flinch impacts the game as a Wingull burn or confusion. As shown above, the burns don't matter nearly as much as you're emphasizing when actually countering Wingull.I mean, you were the one semi-quoting the smogon tiering policy, how about this one?Have you shown that these moves put the more skilled player at a disadvantage "too much" "regardless of what they do?" The clear answer is no. You've shown that sometimes, Wingull cripples its counters with a burn (though they still counter it if they are properly EV'd....) and, even less often, gets a rare confusion.And lastly, I think you even know that this argument is weak. Why else would you essentially doctor up the tiering policy and omit clearly relevant parts?What you posted:What the policy actually looks like:The entire premise and crux of your post depends on this policy being enough to ban Wingull alone, but this policy clearly dictates that it is a last ditch effort. Is there drastic community outcry? Objectively, not. Is Wingull's banning able to make the better player win more often? Clearly not, looking at tournament victory stats. You really needed to focus on it being broken or uncompetitive first. You spent like one sentence discussing the uncompetitive characteristic (like, this means to the extent of moody and evasion, so I understand why you didn't delve deep into it) and clearly faltered at the "broken" characteristic. If you could show that it's broken, or almost broken, and then perhaps you can argue that it's unhealthy enough to ban away. It is clearly not something that's possible given the amount of Pokemon much more powerful than Wingull in the metagame.In summary (and tl;dr):Your post only contains 30% of an argument based on your reliance on 30% of the above policy, Scald burns and Hurricane confusion.The crux of your post is based on an tiering policy that you omitted 70% of, most of which entirely contradicts your use of the policy.You overstate Wingull's typing and movepool because its stats are so weak that it fails to OHKO foongus or mienfoo with Hurricane.You dismiss many situations where burns don't actually matter and lots of relevant Pokemon that do a great job stopping Wingull practically every time but are just less common because you don't really need to have hard counters for Wingull due to it being weak and frail.Your examples rely on Wingull having zHurricane ready to use at all moments and over emphasize its ability to wallbreak with it's z-move, as if that's not generally what z-moves do.