After a long, pedantic discussion at Thursday’s MSNBC debate about what “progressive” means, the two Democratic candidates moved on to a long, pedantic discussion of who was furthest from the establishment.

Clinton is part of the establishment; it’s very hard to remain on the fringe after being first lady, senator, and secretary of state. But she hit back, saying that Sanders’s accusation was “quite amusing” considering she’s a woman running to be the first female president.

Not many people bought her line:



Seems like Hillary should admit to being part of the establishment. — Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) February 5, 2016

Of course Hillary is the Democratic establishment. Bernie's the fringe. Why is she getting so upset about this? — Michael Grunwald (@MikeGrunwald) February 5, 2016

Watching Hillary deny being part of the establishment is like watching water deny being wet. #DemDebate — Crystal M. Fleming (@alwaystheself) February 5, 2016

Even if Clinton is part of the establishment, it’s undeniable that the success of her campaign means she’s changing it from within. Whether Sanders agrees with the change she represents is another matter.