< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 14 OF 14 · Later Kibitzing> Mar-23-17

Jonathan Sarfati : This should not be called the Scandinavian Defence but the Valencian Defence or Vinyoles Defence. Mar-29-17

Jonathan Sarfati : <centralfiles: < <Richard Taylor > Did White miss the Ne5 trick when B went to g4?> see karpovas post above about losing the Queen. That would also explain why not Bxf7+ then Ne5+ that would be an illegal move putting the Q en prise> Still strange, because doesn't 20. Qxd7+ also put the Q en prise? Mar-29-17

Richard Taylor : Interesting to see the oldest game in any case. Or what may be the oldest. Mar-30-17 Yigor : Here are evaluations from ChessOK database:

1. e4 (KP, +0.11) d5 (Scandinavian, +0.29) 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 (Ilundain Variation, +0.33) 4. Bc4 Nf6 (+0.37) 5. Nf3 Bg4 (mistake, +1.12 after 6. Ne5) 6. h3 (mistake, +0.33) Bxf3 (+0.48) 7. Qxf3 The sequence of Pawn Structure Classification Codes: 2E -> 2Ed -> 6Ed -> 6Ed1h (pawn height =13) Apr-01-17

Jonathan Sarfati : <Richard Taylor:> , yes, oldest known game with modern Q and B moves. What's more, the two players, along with their fellow poet and nobelman Bernat Fenollar who commented on the game, were the probably the ones who invented these rules! Jun-12-17 schnarre : ...Interesting to go over such an old game! Jun-20-17

lomez : This might not actually be from 1745. Maybe a few years later. Jun-20-17 ChessHigherCat : It looks a game played between a king (white) and his court jester (black). Why not 10. ...Rb8 11. Qc6 Rb6, for example? Probably because if black won, it was "Off with his head!". Lasker's rules cited by <Karpova> are interesting, especially: 2) He who loses the queen, loses the game (surprisingly feminist for the period), and 3) a pawn that reaches the 8th rank can only become a piece which has already been taken (that would avoid a lot of the crazy fumbling around that goes on in blitz games, trying to put tin foil on top of a pawn or something) Oct-21-17

Jonathan Sarfati : <ChessHigherCat: (surprisingly feminist for the period),> But then, maybe not. From the date and place, many chess historians believed that the huge expansion in the power of the queen was a tribute to Queen Isabella of Castile, a powerful queen regnant. Nov-07-17 MariusDaniel : Great chess game from 15th century! Sep-21-18 Yigor : The next Scandinavian game in this database: Hanstein - von der Lasa (1839): gid=1266108. Sep-21-18

Parachessus : <ChessHigherCat> Christian Freeling's brilliant chess variant called "Grand Chess" only allows pawns to promote to captured pieces. So if your queen is still on the board, you can't promote to a queen. Also, in GC pawns can promote on the last TWO ranks. This would mean K+P vs K endings would always be won by the side with the extra pawn. Sep-22-18 Yigor : 4. Bc4 can be called "Castellvi attack". The main line is 4. d4. The next Scandinavian: Ilundain game: Morphy/Barnes - Staunton/Owen (1858), gid=1242885. Jul-26-19 Chesgambit : old chess game Jul-26-19 Chesgambit : King games Oct-06-19 stridergene : Wow amazing. I am amazed that this game was preserved Feb-09-20 MordimerChess : So that's the oldest chess game ever recorded. Wow! It was played in Valencia, 1475 AD. It was discovered in 1905 in some manuscript found in archives. And its name was Scachs d'Amor, which means in Catalan language "The Chess Game of Love". Maybe it's the most important chess game in history? ;) De Castellvi appears as one of the three authors of the "Scachs d´amor" poem. He was the owner of several towns and advisor in the Aragonese court of King Ferdinand. He was definitely a member of a distinguished Valencian family. Narcis Vinyoles was a polititian and a writer, he was know of his literacy production at that time. And he was a member of well known lawyers family. Bernat Fenollar, commentator or arbiter was also member of notable Valencian family. He was a priest, a mathematician, but also a literacy patron and organizer of cultural event. So he was the real soul of the chess group and probably the first author of chess book which disappear later from the history. Manuscript of chess oldest game in the World is everything we have now. And maybe the level of the players were not so high at that time but it seems like these trio invented the modern rules of chess. That's why I think it deserves the video with some commentary about the story behind: https://youtu.be/AJuU6uqkPwk

Keep in mind that position from miniature matches the position from the game. I really had to do some serious work on that, lol :D Enjoy! Feb-10-20 Petrosianic : <it seems like these trio invented the modern rules of chess.> Why does it seem that way to you? Just because this is the oldest game that has survived doesn't mean it's the first game ever played, nor that these players are the ones who altered the rules of Shatranj into modern chess. Feb-12-20 MordimerChess : <Just because this is the oldest game that has survived doesn't mean it's the first game ever played> There is no evidence about any other older game. Also <research on Fenollar proves an important point: The modern game of chess appears in Valencia, towards the end of the XVth century, in a well known circle of poets, literary patrons and printers of books.> And <Almost all the early works on modern chess are coming from Spain, and they are related in many ways to the chess circle of Valencia during the last part of the 15th century. The origins of modern chess are in Valencia> And as Fenollar was well known, influencial chess enthusiast and he shows the rules of chess in his books, it's very unlikely that his "chess circle" didn't invent the modern chess of rules (probably without the castling). Feb-12-20 Petrosianic : <There is no evidence about any other older game.> Right, as I say, I get that this is the oldest surviving game. I also get that Modern Chess originated in the 15th century, and so this could be the first game. It might even be the first recorded game. But the actual first one ever played? It doesn't even claim that. It might be hard to determine the actual first game even if we had complete records of every game ever played. No doubt the rules were shuffled around and experimented with a lot as people turned shatranj into chess, so the answer might be somewhat interpretational. I'm willing to recognize this as the de facto first game, though, since we have no older ones. But I'm not willing to chip in for statues for Castellvi and Vinyoles yet. Feb-12-20

perfidious : It might be the first game of modern chess, or the second, or the third.... You get my drift.

Yawn. There are more worthwhile topics of debate. Feb-12-20 Petrosianic : <Yawn. There are more worthwhile topics of debate.> On this particular page, probably not. The game itself is no great shakes. Feb-13-20 MordimerChess : Yeah, let's start from Fenollar's statue. He deserved it the most! Sep-22-20 login :



Meanwhile in Germany

https://www.unesco.de/sites/default... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lands...

Sep-22-20

offramp : This is chessgames game number 1259987. Jump to page # (enter # from 1 to 14)

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