Want good programmers? Then PAY them.

Just read an article in a local Austrian newspaper, telling that local companies are unable to find good developers and programmers. There are currently 22% more open job positions in this area compared to last year, and even back then lots of positions were not be able to be filled. I'm not surprised at all.The problem IMO is that companies are not willing to pay enough for developers and programmers. In Austria, an entry level programmer with high level university training will usually get offered 2200 Euro gross. I'm not kidding. Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Why on fucking earth should he start as programmer probably even without prospect of a promotion in your company then? Why should he even consider to work as programmer? He would be better off working as team manager, project lead or similar, blabbering in meetings with all the other people, not doing actual work. But at least he would be paid there probably even twice as good.I've heard the situation is similar in other countries, although I don't think programmers are seen comparable worthless in many other countries :)

134 comments, already:

2200 Euro? As if! In my experience that’s a rather high monthly salary for a coder in austria, and if you wan’t to see way lower ones, just look at the general IT Staff (Admins and co.), they would be way more than happy with that salary.

Some Programmer - 03 05 12 - 12:52

It’s gross, so those 2200 end up being 1513 euro. Maybe you didn’t see that?

niko - 03 05 12 - 12:56

In Italy the situation is even worse, as a junior you will probably start at an average 800-900 euros with a 3 months contract

Francesco - 03 05 12 - 13:00

@niko I know that it’s gross, and the sad fact is that I know enough programmers that get around 1500 monthly gross.

Some Programmer - 03 05 12 - 13:02

The title is great, and it is exactly what most of programmers thinks, it is a very hard mental job, and if i had a chance to switch to physical job for half the salary i would, not because i hate programming, but no one can be a programmer more that 5 years.

Reality - 03 05 12 - 13:04

woha :)

niko - 03 05 12 - 13:05

Unfortunately, the situation is the same in France, even for engineers. If you’re lucky, you can expect after 10 years of experience to earn 75% of what a junior position in Silicon Valley would get you.

DrMonkey - 03 05 12 - 13:05

Agree with this article. It is the same in Belgium. After a few years it is more interesting to become a manager than continuing programming. Your salary doesn’t raise anymore after 30 year except if you get a manager position. I get in my pocket 1500eur every month and I have 5+ years experience in J2EE. I have a CV as long as my arm.

Nicolas - 03 05 12 - 13:07

Here in Italy, several GOOD developers are paid 1200€-1500€ net.

Daniele - 03 05 12 - 13:09

As far as I know the austrian collective contract for programmers is 1800€ even if you´ve studied it´s hard getting more without 10 years of work experience.

Jakob - 03 05 12 - 13:11

I totally agree. I’ve always wondered why team leaders, etc… get salaries that are so much higher in comparison to developers. In my point of view, this is due to the old mentality that the “boss” should be rewarded. It’s true that management roles imply responsibility and that responsibility must be rewarded… however, assuming your developers are disposable factory workers will just limit the quality of your team and consequently the quality of your work.

Pedro - 03 05 12 - 13:17

Forget Europe. In India companies some times don’t even pay for first 3 months, in which entry-level programmers are kept in so called “training period” in which they are tailored to code in their way. Only then they start getting “some” pay.

Gautam - 03 05 12 - 13:18

In russia we have for example senior python developer salary is around $2700 – $4000+ and around $1400 – $2000 for junior devs. And it’s okay.

Some companies try to find devs with lover price – like $2000 for seniors and devs who is really accept it – their own problems. Depends on level of company.

MechanisM - 03 05 12 - 13:19

Hello, where do you all live people? Just move over to Berlin and be done with those boring companies paying 2,200 euros monthly salaries :)

Artas Bartas - 03 05 12 - 13:20

Luxembourg is quite nice.



Junior Developer (almost 2 years XP in C, Perl, Shell scripting) and 3k1 net.

Gilles - 03 05 12 - 13:20

A comment I came to know recently is:



You dont get any where, and for more money, sitting in the same seat.

Brent - 03 05 12 - 13:21

For me it is not so much that I think that developers are underpaid. I think in many countries there are many other jobs that are more demanding and get paid even less.

But what is annoying is the fact that often people that go to meetings, talk, make presentations and send emails get paid much more than developers who actually do the work (and most probably have to do all of the above as well).

Aspra - 03 05 12 - 13:22

Some copmanies tries to find devs for $1000 – $1500 and it can work out. why not? if its depends on level of skill or smth like that.

MechanisM - 03 05 12 - 13:22

well i dont know… i get 3.5k EUR gross(in less developed country than Austria) and think its low, now i read that they pay 2.2k in austria? whoa…. something went very wrong there….

martin - 03 05 12 - 13:28

I guess programming isn’t considered a highly valuable ressource. In my opinion Programmers don’t complain about their salary, they are just happy to work on something they love. Usually designers and Marketeers are more extrovert than the normal programmer. Communicating and defending their goals for the job position is easier for them.



So basicly it is our own fault if we don’t demand a fitting salary. If every Developer on this Planet suddenly decided to take 1k more per month or stop working … everything would stand still…

Michael - 03 05 12 - 13:29

I’m an austrian developer too. 12 years experience. 3600 Euros.

Which nets to less than 2200 Euros a month. Which is around 12 bucks an hour. Our indian contractors make more than that.

dude - 03 05 12 - 13:32

I am no longer in the IT business. I started many decades ago in a previous millenium, long before you were born. Yes, I started programming in 1970. At that time, programmers were well paid and respected. A sharp programmer, with good communication skills could get promoted to a Systems Analyst and deal with end/users and clients. That person could then become a project manager and then a department manager. Somewhere along the line, starting in the mid 1980s, “business analysts” slowly crawled out from under rocks. They were non-technical clerks usually from the end user communities. They had their job titles changed because of their association with IT people. Over the years these people have put on airs and totally undermined technical people. They put down programmers by referring to them as “coders”. They claim to write “specs” which is truly insulting. They now become the team lead which is disgusting. Remember they are essentially clersks. They claim to manage and mentor technical people which is preposterous when you think about it.



I now live in Galt’s Gultch. I refuse to think for them. I am delighted that smart young people now can develop an app or something and become rich and not share a nickle with the nebulous parasites known as business analysts.

Peggy - 03 05 12 - 13:32

It’s interesting, at Amazon (US) senior SDEs are paid more than their team leaders. The goal is that you want good SDEs to keep developing, and good managers to manage. Having SDEs manage just for the money is horrible for everyone involved.

Hmm - 03 05 12 - 13:34

I’m a developer, but I know nothing about the Austrian job market, I’ve only worked in Sydney and Berlin. In Sydney I was responsible for interviewing and hiring candidates. The issue that companies are complaining about in these cities is not the ability to find programmers, or entry level programmers, the issue was finding good programmers with experience. We would receive thousands of job applications a year. We put them through a tough interview process, including intensive interviews with developers, and pair programming style coding tests. We wouldn’t hire more than a handful, not because we didn’t have the positions, but because they weren’t good enough. Anyone that was good enough we would hire. And we paid well above market (a senior developer at my company in Sydney would get paid easily 6 figures), yet, we still couldn’t hire as many people as we wanted. Maybe entry level developers aren’t paid enough, but the issue that companies are complaining about in Sydney at least is caused by the fact that out of the thousands of developers they interview, only a very small percentage are good.

James Roper (link) - 03 05 12 - 13:34

Wow. 10 years ago I started on a lot more than that in Germany near Austria.

But as you started off saying its a free market and people have other options. I expect however that these jobs and the people to accept them are NOT the same people that can start off on their own with a startup or start off in a management position.



Low level dev jobs are probably only worth that, especially outside of the big cities, and many of those starting their careers are probably only worth that too (many might even be worth less), so I think the market is working.



It’s not like that salary is representative of what engaged developers can expect, but a lot of work doesn’t require much engagement.



Plenty of interesting, well paying opportunities, for those that can handle them.

Kurt Häusler - 03 05 12 - 13:35

And here I was thinking that my EUR4200 in Germany was low!

Daniel - 03 05 12 - 13:40

I think it’s a bit pessimistic, but not by much.



I live in Vienna and starting salaries are a bit higher than that in my experience (2.2-2.4k eur per month), and after a few years you can get to around 3k/month (depending on the industry, I was earning 2.7k/month in the games industry).



However I’m not sure it’s that easy to make more than that on your own without a job in 1 year. Possible but not nearly guaranteed.

ed - 03 05 12 - 13:45

Programmer is the new janitor. Don’t be a programmer. Be what ever else and know programming. There is no money and career to be made in programming any more. Now you have to know some other specialized knowledge and leverage programming to be even better at that other expertize.



Days when programmers could do something on their own are long gone.

Mario - 03 05 12 - 13:49

You guys need to relocate, In Aberdeen a programmer with .Net experience will earn £30k+ (around e35k) per annum. Go here:



http://www.rightpeople.uk.net/site/vacan..

Shaun - 03 05 12 - 13:50

Huh, strange. I’m a CS student from Vienna (first year) and get 20 euro or more per hour – about 3.2k per month if I decide to work full time. I’d feel insulted if anybody seriously offered me 2k or less – I can earn more than that by guiding tourists …

Mononofu (link) - 03 05 12 - 13:53

Apples and oranges. The author conflates entry level programmers with “highly specialized people with actual skills”. They are quite different. Most senior level programmers got their jobs via seniority and aren’t really qualified for their position. That is one reason IT is a bad career choice, you work with imbeciles.

Greg - 03 05 12 - 14:10

Plenty of interesting, well paying opportunities, for those that can handle them.

That is very true. Maybe not in Austria, but you can (not so hardly) find around 40k EUR/year (after taxes) salaries in Germany, the Netherlands, UK, Switzerland, etc.



But you should also take into account taxes, cost of living (not sure about Austria, but I suppose its lower than Paris/London) and possible mandatory extras/bonuses like 13rd/14th salary.



cheers

barneyg - 03 05 12 - 14:16

Come to the U.S. my friends. You probably got a better mathematics education in the country you came from and can get paid well- especially if you dont mind which city you live in or what product you are working on.

J. Tal - 03 05 12 - 14:16

it is important to consider the requirements of the job… most small businesses don’t need anything crazy, basic crud, some design, maybe ecommerce.. obviously you can do this to different degrees. From a business perspective a website in itself most of the time needs to be developed 1 time and then after that it becomes a small maintenance issue… if you want money start your own profit generating website or go work for google

blaaaack - 03 05 12 - 14:29

hence thou shalt lance free !! :D

sohaib - 03 05 12 - 14:47

here in Uruguay a junior programer(just finishing his/her studies) get paid between 10000 and 20000 pesos… about 500-1000 dollars, but the life cost is lower than in europe



2200 euros in Uruguay would be an amazing salary.

leo - 03 05 12 - 14:54

I get paid £18k/year, which comes out at about £1100/month. I really need a better job …

Lucian - 03 05 12 - 15:00

Poland, experienced developer, 2000 euro NET. Up to 4000 if you’re willing to work on contracts. Between 500 and 1000 if you’re not experienced.

mrx - 03 05 12 - 15:07

The notion is correct but me as programmer i hate meeting email babble and the all the bull shiz and am much happier sitting in front of a screen coding. That being said developers in the US get paid significantly more then 2200 euros

Joe - 03 05 12 - 15:16

In Holland it is the same.

Cesar - 03 05 12 - 15:21

developers in africa get paid more, sheesh

robininafrica - 03 05 12 - 15:23

Move to Berlin. Programmers in high demand, salaries are good. Berlin is a great place to live with low cost of living comparable to other large cities. While I was living and working there, I hired junior developers at rates above €4k/month gross, seniors got paid far more. This is because it is competitive area and we all want good guys.

Berliner - 03 05 12 - 15:27

In South Italy professionist graduated, certificated, with ten yeas of experience as Java programmer, earn net 1500 euros. I’m graduated and work from 2 years and earn net 1200 euros. I prefer be waiter, i’m moving away from Italy to start as waiter, it’s better!

Tony - 03 05 12 - 15:29

Hi, I live in BiH and I’m freelancing and earning aroung 3000 USD monthly, If someone offers me 2500€ to work in Austria I would say are you serious, and just to give you little info about Bosnia



1 Beer = 1€

1 Bread = 0.4€

1 Pack of Expensive cigarets 1.6€

1l of Milk 0.5€



And my opinion that salary in Austria is low for software developer, and you can’t compare sys admins and developers, two different positions.

TriLLi - 03 05 12 - 15:31

In Spain is the same. At entry level you get payed 1000 euros if you are lucky. In big cities it’s a little bit better, but still…



I don’t understand the reason, because even for government grants it’s taken into consideration that engineerings are more difficult, so you can get a grant with less average marks. And still we get pay less than a person who studied “business administration” (which is far easier and less specialized).



I think the problem is that we like our job and we accept to do it for less money. We should stop this. We should coordinate.

Sergio - 03 05 12 - 15:33

Leave Austria. Come to Australia.



Its basically the same, except decent entry level here is about 50,000 euro.

Adrian - 03 05 12 - 15:35

Fascinating reading this and browsing through the comments.



The situation is definitely different in the United States. I believe that good developers are not easy to find anywhere in the world. There’s a very big difference between a good developer and someone who can produce some code. There are a lot of people who can produce code. Finding someone who’s passionate about their work and enjoys the field of programming and technology is not an easy thing to do.



Good developers demand around $80-100K (€61-76K) as long as you are in a place with an economy that supports that kind of pay.



On the other hand, a person who can simply produce code will probably be able to get closer to $40-60K (€30-45K).



Rising demands for good developers means that there are exceptions. There are lots of people who simply produce code that get paid like they are a developer.



Programming is a very interesting profession.

randomdrake.com (link) - 03 05 12 - 15:44

The recommended starting payment for a CS master degree in Norway in the private sector is about 63K€ yearly for students starting in August. And there are five weeks vacation in there.

SpoiledNorwegian - 03 05 12 - 15:47

I wouldn’t compare European salaries with US so quickly.

I have a cautionary tale to tell: when in 1990 the USSR collapsed, many Russian physicists decided to move abroad, some to western Europe, some to the USA. At first the European ones were complaining about their lower salaries, but once they started having kids and needing more medical care, they realized that they were actually much better off than their American counterparts.

The lesson here is: you might even make much less, but in Europe there are much much better public schools which are free, hospitals are (mostly) free and in general Universities are either free or at least one order of magnitude less expensive than in the US. Should I go on? Most contracts in the US do not have unlimited sick leave, whereas in Europe we get that and 20 days of holiday; the US are one of the four countries in the world with no national law on maternity leave (who are the other three is left as an exercise to the reader&hellip .

But I agree with the general point that salaries of developers should not be so low compared to managerial positions.

Carlo - 03 05 12 - 15:50

I have been working in Russia as a Java developer and get 500 euros a month :)

Toolen - 03 05 12 - 15:56

That’s quite a lot by Indian standards. I started working at US $3500 / year in India.

unpaidProgrammer - 03 05 12 - 16:07

In Bolivia – South America a programer get paid between 700 and 1500 dollars. What about Brazil ? Im interested on moving there

Daniel - 03 05 12 - 16:13

Developer (iOS/web) in Asia/Hong Kong. USD $4800/month.

dev - 03 05 12 - 16:23

Wow, is is a bit surprising how low salaries are in some European countries. You would think that they would be fairly comperable to the United States.



I live in Dallas and work for a major corporation as a Software Engineer and I make just over $5500/month gross. You can make substantially more in Silicon Valley, although the cost of living is astronomical out there.



I would just work for myself if the best offers I got were $3000/month.

Ugly American - 03 05 12 - 16:25

I have some 8 years of experience and my last job in Romania paid 500€ / month.

I mostly do frontend work.

Horia Dragomir (link) - 03 05 12 - 16:34

Those with the interest should really migrate your programming skills to the security realm, I’ve got only a few years experience in security analysis and engineering and make 9000US month. A few SANS crest and apply with banks/gov/mega corps. Job offers all day.

Secdude - 03 05 12 - 16:37

Answering the guy from Bolivia: Brazil is a very diverse country and so are IT professionals salaries. If you are in a major city (like São Paulo) and working in the financial sector, the salaries are somenthing like $1000-1500 for juniors and up to $4000-5000 for seniors, but you have to consider its one of the most expensive cities to live in the World. In smaller cities things are a lot worse. But the grand average is somenthing around $2000

Fernando - 03 05 12 - 16:38

I think that straight out of university most young programmers don’t have a clue about creating valuable software.

Only after working in a company for at least 2 years you start being actually useful to the company.

At the beginning I honestly think the company is doing you a favor by employing you, training in you, teaching what the business world is about and paying you too.

I was paid 1,500 EUR in 2000. By 2005 I was making 160,000 EUR.

So, be humble at the beginning and the rewards will come.

Frank Ongle - 03 05 12 - 16:39

that’s not just the case in Australia, its almost the case everywhere I hear….. they want us to bargain, wtf!!! x(

AbhishekKr (link) - 03 05 12 - 17:18

Then go work in a country where they pay well! Simples! If you are a top programmer you can get a job ANYwhere!

John - 03 05 12 - 17:50

In Bosnia the salary for developer is 700 EUR, you can’t go anywhere with it, and as Artas Bartas said if i had a chance to move to Berlin i will take it.

Reality - 03 05 12 - 18:08

whoah! wait till you hear here in the Philippines. four years ago i started working at $285 gross per month.



however in the recent months a lot of companies are giving more because it’s getting hard to acquire talents. i am positive that I.T here in my country will be much better in the coming months/years

almar.io (link) - 03 05 12 - 18:10

In Germany the typical salary is 40K/year which makes it 2000/month after taxes. Considering living expenses in large cities like Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt closing on 1500/month, you end up with some ridiculous 500-800 leftover, which is nothing for expensive Europe. I worked for a few years in Germany then gave up and returned to my homeland (Russia) as I was fed up playing cheap workforce. Europe urgently needs software developers? Give me a break.

RussianGuy - 03 05 12 - 18:11

It’s all about perspective, demand, and skill. I live in Norway. I’ve programmed for about 7 yrs, my starting salary was around 4K EUR and today 9. I have no formal education.



I’ve turned down at least five concrete job offers from the US since 2010. One of them was as a local rep type position in Oslo, but what they did not seem to understand is that the cost of living is even higher than ‘astronomical’ over here.

jaykay - 03 05 12 - 18:22

In Moscow salaries range in 2000-3000 Euros net, sometimes up to 4000. Since most of the people live in property apartments (Soviet government graciously gave out apartments to young families) and they don’t have to pay rent, they put all of the earned money in their pocket. 3000 Euros of pure income per month is not that bad.

RussianGuy - 03 05 12 - 18:23

Here in Charlotte, North Carolina—a large city in the southeastern US—I mostly work as a contractor. I am a senior ASP.Net web developer with strong SQL Server skills, but my skills are not unique. The current hourly rate (before any taxes or benefits) is in the range of $60-65 per hour, or around $125,000 per year. Salaried positions in large companies pay over $100,000, and smaller businesses try to get you down to $75,000—all with medical insurance and possibly some retirement benefits, maybe a bonus.

Daphne - 03 05 12 - 18:23

2200 ain’t low. its average. the low end is around 900-1000E.



The junior salary in the sv isn’t much higher. $1 != 1E damn far from it. And living in sv is relatively expensive.



4000E/mo is high. higher than that is actually kinda rich.



That’s all before taxes, mind you!



if you can do that by writing your own software then don’t complain, just write your own software (then you’ll realize that it doesn’t actually work out?)



For the record I worked in different EU countries AND in the sv.

In the sv if you wanna make real money guess f. what? You gotta make your company and be the CEO OR get shares before the company goes big.



Guess what again? 98% or so of the companies fail, though luck. It isn’t actually that easy. At all!

buh - 03 05 12 - 18:24

I create engineering programs from scratch almost every time alone and i’m paid almost like said in the post. It’s around 10 years i work like that and i was liking it only because projects where always different and there was space and time to improve your coding. The software was almost database management + some calculations, not much else involved. I am unable to learn much from others but it was bearable.

In the last years however they assigned me more difficult and ambitious projects (seeing i’m not stupid, eh eh) with little more raise in salary. They know i like computer graphics coding and they thought to use this “feature” of mine. I was not so skilled to say i can produce a commercial software so i accepted anyway, to learn. Also they have seen i am able to design the software myself so i had to study what to do, put ideas, experiment technologies to use, prepare a timetable ALL alone with not people asking me anything (after years i understood it was more because they think i work honestly without slacking BUT also that they are not interested in the details of the products they produce and sell).

New things to do involved 3D rendering, 2D rendering and so on so i asked people to help me but they have managed only to use other developers in the office just when they have some free time between other tasks of other projects. Obviously they think i’m me who needs to tell them every day what to do, teach them things they don’t know and so on.

Lately the great idea to speed up things: hiring a manager to check developers paid x3 times our salary. Now i need to tell him every week what i’ve done and how much i’ve to work again to finish everything (he isn’t interested and capable of understanding the technical things involved). His main task is to draw gantt charts and sum hours to calculate how much i cost them.



This lasts for around an year and i’m quite depressed for that. So i decided to ask them:

1) to raise my salary because i have to work on more roles (analyst, software architect, programmer in every task, now just a part of the whole big software, team leader, coordinator). OR

2) make me work on just one topic (computer graphics because i know it and not one else) OR

3) give me less pressure and shut up



Naturally the answer was “we have to think if we have money for the raise, we cannot have so much people/money to work on it, we need to publish it for the end of the year”.

So i decided to quit as soon as i’ve finished this (i accepted the work, i’ll finish it) and start something myself with more joy and possibly more money in return for my efforts.

Gian - 03 05 12 - 18:24

Anyway I think most of the great programmers abandon employed work these days and go launch their startups. “Market” has done quite well in repelling those few who are good at their chosen profession.

RussianGuy - 03 05 12 - 18:25

Hmm, where I am from,Romania, a high salary for a programmer is around 400euros …

S. - 03 05 12 - 18:29

the problem is India and arabic countries are pumping out programmers as fast as they can, so wages are nothing.



Story: I’m in the US and went to school for computer science. When I saw all the jobs go overseas I decided to leave school, hire someone overseas and used a few hundred dollars to start a popular ecommerce website. Now I make well into six-figures with no degree, and send about $1,000 USD a year to a programmer in Pakistan to keep the website updated with new code.



They say they want programmers but then they don’t want to pay them and when no one wants to work for free they outsource because they do work for (almost) free.

US entrepreneur - 03 05 12 - 18:36

In the US at a reputable company/startup you’ll start at 70k/yr in the East Coast. So after taxes you are looking at about $4,000 a month.

Stelios - 03 05 12 - 18:55

You definitely need to visit Latvia. Here you will get 300-400 LVL as beginner (600-800 USD), and up to 1000-1200 LVL (2000- 2400 USD) as a professional – with work until night and without weekends as a part of a process (as you’re getting so high salary!)



And yes, this will be “black” salary in most cases, paid with cash under desk – i.e. no social benefits if you’ll loose your job.



And our companies also complain a lot that they can’t find good developers.

G. H. - 03 05 12 - 19:27

Software: Good, Fast and Cheap. Pick two.

James Bell - 03 05 12 - 20:49

In Romania, as a backend developer(C#/Java) I was payed aprox 1500 Euros (~7 years experience). But I think is a special case. The most experienced developers I know, were payed between 900-1200. Only after 10 years of experience you might get the chance of having more then 1500 euros.

Sebastian - 03 05 12 - 20:58

Another thing about Romania: high salaries are being payed only in these 3 cities: Cluj, Timisoara, Bucuresti.

Sebastian - 03 05 12 - 21:00

Well now in malaysia, and some asian parts, the highest a programmer is paid is around MYR3000 so thats around 750EUR?

somechinesedude - 03 05 12 - 21:01

Record comment rate.



Also, 500 EUR/month here, Brazil.

Nostaw - 03 05 12 - 21:16

Please note, that in Austria there are 14 month of salary, so you actually need to take that into account if you compare with other countries like Germany.

vrankz - 03 05 12 - 21:40

Answering the guy from Bolivia (and São Paulo): I live in Porto Alegre (southern brazil), working at Terra Networks (terra.com.br) as a senior developer: R$5500 (~US$2800)/month. This is a very nice city to live, a little expensive, but I have a good house, a nice car, lot of fun. All while being the only income to a family of 3 (married with 3yo child).



Porto Alegre is probably the second/third largest IT market in South America. We have Terra (also in Sao Paulo and almost all South American countries + Miami), HP and Dell as major companies, and a lot of other smaller third-parties.

Mateus - 03 05 12 - 21:47

hey guys, nice reading your conebts, am in kenya and i get paid around $500 gross per month as a developer. Obvious its not the same every where in Kenya as its infact the starting salary for entry level developer for most of startsup i know. I have the passionate for my job, and i dont care what am being paid. I am an android developer and i can make extra far much more on my own apps, so i have an advice for those developers being motivated by money, if you are good you can start your own business.

alex - 03 05 12 - 21:50

In India 3 type of fresher :-

i) if you are from good college (top 10 %). your 1st IT job will pay you around $ 2000 easily.

ii) From 2-tier college (30%). you will get around $ 1000

iii) Rest get job in BPO or Call center (40 %). Salary starting at $400 .

Remaining 20 % don’t get a JOB.



Now for experienced:

5-8 Year experience in Programming/Management or QA get you around $ 3500 easily !!!

ab kaka - 03 05 12 - 21:55

In Brazil i can tell you that a entry level programmer with high level university get less than this. it’s the big problem of softwares with bad quality, is like every profissional, if you want a service to be well done you have to pay more for a qualified professional and if you pay less, you receive less. it’s not different in software development field.

Tiago Mesquita de Araujo Cunha - 03 05 12 - 22:44

In israel it’s 1000$

Alexander - 03 05 12 - 23:16

In St. Louis, MO, USA- $US 45-75 /hour as Contractor with benefits.

You are responsible for keeping your skills fresh. Here its Java, Spring, Hibetnate, jQuery, Web. Full time average around 100K US per year with 5-10 years experience. Sounds like no one wants to pay Eurozone taxes. Self employeed 80+/ hour

Independent - 03 05 12 - 23:23

Just across the border from Austria, in Slovakia, you are lucky to get 1000€ gross entry level sallary. That is for university-trained people.

Hulu - 03 05 12 - 23:30

Mateus, could you please post you’re mail? I would like to ask you some questions about IT field on Brazil.

Daniel - 03 05 12 - 23:50

Spain, 22 years of experience, C, C++, Java and C# programmer, 2160€/month

JCarles - 03 05 12 - 23:52

In the US, outside Washington, D.C., I pay mid level developers with 8-12 years of experience around $100,000. We are a little below market for this area.

JakeC - 03 05 12 - 23:53

In Latvia with xp 4 years and up avg salary/month from $1000 to $2000 depending on language. With salary from $1000 to $2000 programmer earns more than ~90% of country’s population. With salary over $2000 programmer earns more than ~98% of country’s population. On global view quite low, but on local these are quite high. How are your salaries looking on local salary context ?

Martins - 04 05 12 - 00:28

I’m a senior developer with 10 years experience (all rounder – front & backend) at a small web agency in Sydney and make about AU$9,500 gross (€7,500) / month. Our cost of living is probably a bit higher though! (eg. average rent on a 1 bedroom apartment close to the city is about AU$400-$500 a week)

Aus Dev - 04 05 12 - 00:42

latvia seems kind of similar to slovakia, maybe some percents lower, but not that much, just swap dollars for euros. i’ve been lucky, but not everybody can say that

RastaFeri - 04 05 12 - 01:04

Here in Australia I work in systems automation designing hardware/software solutions to run things like water treatment plants, oil/gas refineries and manufacturing plants. I’m coming up on 10 years experience and my gross salary is about AUS$12,000. However my work is counted as a Engineering Discipline (my degrees are all in Electrical/Mechanical/Computer Engineering) even though 90% of it is programming.

Masdus - 04 05 12 - 01:38

The US has a talent gap because we are destroying our educational system.



Come to San Francisco and earn US$10k gross

SanFranGeek - 04 05 12 - 04:17

In Pakistan



A fresh grad starts with 300 Euro per month.

6+ years of experience can get up to 900 Euro per month.

10+ years of experience can get up to 1800 Euro.

Hasan - 04 05 12 - 04:36

It’s all relative. In San francisco, I make $13,000 per month which includes my bonus, but 1 bedroom apartments average $4,000 a month, tax is around 45%, and decent 3 bedroom houses near good schools with a commute shorter than 20 minutes cost $3,000,000. After tax and rent I have about $2,000 left, which barely covers the rest of my expenses. And I have no idea how I’ll ever be able to afford a house being an employee.

Anon - 04 05 12 - 05:32

from my country some lucky programmers gets an equivalent of 270Euro/month, some lucky lucky lucky programmer like me gets 540Euro/month… some very luck programmer get something higher.



no it’s not the cost of living thing—because most programmers here have difficulty buying their own house.

adrian - 04 05 12 - 05:45

Can somebody parse each of the posts

– search each post for 3 digit or greater number and assume it is monthhly salary

– search each post for any string that matches some universal set of cities, states, countries

– then make a chart and show us what everyone reports as monthly programmer salaries around the world



You are all programmers right? ; ) should be a piece of cake …

Genoki San - 04 05 12 - 06:03

I work in the western part of austria. With 10 years experience in java without a degree I earn 44k/year.

someGuy - 04 05 12 - 06:54

Here in Germany, I am working with the following conditions. (CS Degree, 10 Years of experience)



-> 6K Euro gross monthly. (which is like 4K Euro Net monthly)

(a decent 3 room apartment(>80m2) costs like 700 Euro a month in this area to give you the idea of expenses.)



-> 40 hours of work in a week. (No weekend work)



-> 6 weeks of paid annual vacation + 10 working days of public holidays in a year. This means 220 actual working days in a year for that salary. I dont know if there is better work/life balance conditions that can match those conditions on another place in the world ? Maybe Canada ? Someone from Canada here ?



I am actually kind of a mediocre developer and getting this salary. If you are really in the top %10 of your area and can demonstrate and market your skills, getting like 7K / 8K Euro monthly gross salaries with 10+ years of experience is no biggie in current economic situation in Germany.



For example, I am being contacted by the headhunters and companies on a daily basis. They are all offering salaries not more than %10 of my current one and I am definitely not bothering to change for that little difference. I need at least %30 or more so that a change would be worthwhile. I am still searching

GermanGuy - 04 05 12 - 07:14

Today is virtuous ill, isn’t it?

sokScouffbows - 04 05 12 - 07:19

4yrs in Java and python grossing about 6k in US. I also get 100% overtime whenever. Working on a start up as well.

_var - 04 05 12 - 08:08

As you can see, salaries are defined most by the mean salaries payed in each country. In Germany, higher salaries everywhere boost a programmers salary accordingly, in contrast with southern Europe countries where there is high unemployment especially to young (and with university degrees) salaries are low. In fact, unemployment is the main factor that drives the level of salaries, because if there is a high demand for skilled workers, salaries will raise, if they are a lot of workers waiting in list for employment, salaries will get lower.



The fact that the German Language is little known outside Germany, “protects” the local skilled workers from foreign immigrants, especially in sectors where communication skills are a must. That is why we can see immigrant workers in sectors where communication is in low need in countries like Germany. On the other hand, most of youngsters today speak English, that’s why you will see low salaries in England, there is a vast population who speaks Spanish, and also Francophones are more than German speaking people. This puts an extra demand for work in those speaking countries.

Savas - 04 05 12 - 08:13

wild amount of comments! just a few points, perhaps not that relevant: 2200€ gross means – with stuff the employer has to pay in addition, like a part of social security – somewhere about 2800-3000€ a month, essentially 14 times a year, so this is about 40k € a year – as comparison to countries where you have to pay all taxes etc. yourself. I guess the net income would be around 22-23k per annum then, given that the two obligatory bonus salaries are not taxed that much.



another thing: ‘high level university training’ and ‘entry level jobs’ often implies nearly no actual programming experience, and often amounts to people who officially should be able to create software, but practically aren’t, so what you do have is an apprentice who happens to have an university degree (admittedly orthographic and mathematical skills often surpass the typical apprentice). not all, but not too few either.



a different issue are underpaid jobs for actually experienced developers, usually wheat has been separated from chaff here. but there are easy (even if legally doubtful) ways to make lots of money, like selling tremendously overpriced websites to small businesses (yet again saw such a sucker…



so overall the 2200 gross for real entry level jobs (given a substantial raise after a reasonable initial period of at most a year, if you are kept) doesn’t bother me too much, but 2200 gross and demanding 5 years experience (and maybe a degree and below 25 years of age) will likely not get you the person you want, if anyone at all.

xaos - 04 05 12 - 08:52

Hi,



The biggest problem from my opinion is that an excellent developer is worth multiple times the money to an “average developer”. It is quite logical: A good developer brings up the appropriate solution for a given problem, the quality of the code is excellent and there is probably no need to rewrite anything, if there are no new feature requests. After a few bugfixes, the software is mature.



The average developer on the other hand delivers something that might work for a while. Changes have a huge impact as he has probably not used interfaces or the single responsibility principle. A lot of bugfixing is necessary to get the software stable.



All in all, the maintainance work, the support of other department to find bugs and the lower availability of the solution of an average dev is far more expensive than the solution of an excellent dev.



So what can be done about it: Strive for excellence! If you love your job as developer, take pride in craftmanship, dedicate to livelong learning and enjoy it as you realize that you get better every day (even if you are already on a senior level).



There are companies that rely on excellent developers and do not hire “average” devs. And these companies normally know what they have to pay an excellent developer.



Stefan

pd.

If you are an excellent developer and you are looking for a job… don’t hesitate to contact me. bwin.party is always looking for excellent devs :)

Stefan Papp (link) - 04 05 12 - 08:54

The following might sound a little harsh to you guys.



But.



A junior dev “just graduated with actual skills” doesn’t contribute anything valuable to its company. In fact, he inflicts damage of around 1h per day (for the team lead, 15 seconds to rollback all junior’s daily changes, 20 minutes to re-implement them properly, then 40 to teach the junior why his work was not accepted). A team-lead can earn for the company, say, 80 eur per hour. Thus a junior would inflict 1600 eur damage (missed earnings) per month. Being paid 2200 for that is pretty cool. The company hopes you’ll be actually useful somedays (typically 5-7 years after graduation). Then you can expect to be paid 2200+1600=3800 eur p.m.

Did it make sense?

exclamation - 04 05 12 - 09:42

You are all welcome to come to Sweden, we need more programmers and we pay much more than that.

Magnus - 04 05 12 - 09:47

Hey exclamation – are you really suggesting that for someone who is so passionate about programming that he studies it at uni and makes it his profession it is going to take about 10 years before they can actually be useful?

Kristan - 04 05 12 - 10:31

Could you post the link to the article you are referring to? Thamks

Marco - 04 05 12 - 10:32

I cannot find it anymore, but this article is pretty similar: http://derstandard.at/1334796740615/IT-I..

niko - 04 05 12 - 10:41

imo, there is a cultural phenomena at work here. The cool kids from school have won out over the geeks. The cool kids, the popular and savvy people, over the years, have managed to create a world in which what matters is not your ability to create ‘things’ but your ability to manipulate other people. By pushing the creation of things which enable our modern world out to asia, we have created a western world which has no place for people who ‘create’. We live in a paradise for the people people, a place where an ability to manipulate others is vastly more profitable than any genuis for manipluating the physical world. This is why we are paid so little for the skills we possess. Germany is different, Germany has respect for technical expertise, this is why Germany succeeds. As the modern western world is destroyed by it’s parasitic nature, it will become apparent that change is required, and the balance will shift. Until that happens, I’m just concentrating on being the best technological creative that I can be.

Marcus - 04 05 12 - 12:54

Are you kidding? in my country the initial salary of a developer is around 800 dollars and the companies want you be a MASTER devel…

Anna - 04 05 12 - 14:20

That is way too little for a high profile programmer. I get paid horrible being a med-upper network guru of 40k, so programmers, I know the pinch you’re in.

Jonathan - 04 05 12 - 14:27

Hello,



I’m still looking for developers to investment bank. If you are able to relocate to Prague and you have skills, than it is no problem. The payments are around 2050 euro to 2500. If you are senior, you can get more. It’s prety nice salary becouse average payment in Czech rep is between 900 ~ 1000 euro. Just visit http://www.jons.cz and send me message.



Thank you



Michal K

Michal K (link) - 04 05 12 - 14:41

Hello



Startup looking for partner and Looking to CTO

we are Group of Developer and startup’s

for now we have 7 new Idea and project

we now looking to partner



Developer

Designers

Product managers

Development Managers



he / she will get 25% parcent of the startup

our startup is uniqe startup we have more than 1 project

befor any bady send me any mail



There are a few clarifications

We want serious people with knowledge

Not just people who want to just talk and look for work

We do not pay money at this stage we are looking for partners



so

our App is

1]Web App

this project we start and done 60 %



2] Mobile App



this project We have hard work with him because of our inexperience

need experience in App Sms viop especially



3] App Social Networks



we start this project and done 70%

We need web designers for this project

and Php Developer And Dot.net



this our mail h.shtia@gmail.com



thanks

shtia (link) - 04 05 12 - 18:31

And, by reading the comments to that post, Niko realized he should have started his Programmer Employment Social Network a long time ago.

Nostaw - 04 05 12 - 20:27

It’s not too late, I’ve got all your mail adresses!! :)

niko - 04 05 12 - 20:49

Work in Norway. 11 yrs experience. 8100 eur/month gross, but then I pay 45% tax. Enjoy pepl!

Guybrush - 04 05 12 - 21:00

We are looking for developers who are interested to join us (asap) here in Zurich Switzerland on ETH associated start ups. Temporary – or in case things work out – permanent postions are an option. If you want to be part of a strong team and want to make some (serious) money please drop me a line.

airking72 - 04 05 12 - 22:38

I just got an offer as graduate software dev in London.

28k pounds / year.



Worth it, or not?



( is anyone here offering something better? )

rabbbit - 04 05 12 - 23:03

Bring your rusty Skillsets to Switzerland, plenty of work around last century’s tech going on. i’m kidding actually, but some things are slower in adaption here. on the other hand a daypass for public transport costs 9$ so you get the picture

gordon - 05 05 12 - 00:30

First of all, Europeans need to understand that American salaries for programmers are over-inflated in some cities (NY, San Fran, etc)

Second, American students graduating from universities are heavily in debt from student loans, thus the higher wages cater to the American way of life (everyone is in debt).

Just my (unscientific) conclusions from purely empirical evidence of living in the US my entire life :)

birdfeathers - 05 05 12 - 00:48

The truth is, 90% of the world’s programmers don’t deserve to be paid AT ALL. 9% of the rest have to fix what the 90% have broken, and 1% do all the real work.



If you’re part of that 1%, you can earn excellent money.



Can you tell I’m trying to hire at the moment? :)

yumyum - 05 05 12 - 01:58

I’m in Vienna, in IT since 8 years, in the 5500 without bonus range, this is how I see the market.



need a nerf gun in office? need a wii? spend worktime on fb? get drunk twice a week? cool technology is more important? can’t estimate what you’ll get done in a week? -> 1800-2200



quite efficient in implementing customer wishes, basic communication skills, quite predictable what you can get done in a week, still have some fancy framework of the week and programming language of the month and trying to geek out in work, sometimes having to work longer because had an inefficient day with some fancy new stuff -> 2200 – 2800



very disciplined at work 38,5hours a week, predictable working in team, active collaborator with the customer, enough theoretical background to learn programming languages fast, understanding usability concerns -> 2800 – 3400



able to estimate projects above 500 person days, can make changes in large historical grown untested codebases (without unit tests), enough architecture seen and having some opinon, getting the basics about software development processes and applying that on a team -> 3400 – 4200



able to negotiate prices, able to estimate and commit to large projects, very good domain knowledge and able to abstract and come out with cheap solutions, judging softwarearchitecture and patterns based on complexity theory, you don’t need a formalized process like scrum and still be predictable because you know what things work, can communicate ideas to the customer -> 4200 – 6000



in general kicking asses? get self employed and do consulting, 400 – 1200/day



i may have overstressed predictable and disciplined a bit much. so be disciplined, get work while beeing at work done, get the domain knowledge (for ex. if you are doing a project for a car repair shop, read a book about car repair processes), get better in theory (my cs degree is nice, but there is so much more out theire) and get better at communicating your ideas

winnetou - 05 05 12 - 13:05

In Romania, Perl programmer with ~ 10 years of experience, ~ 2000 EUR. The programming languages used are also important, because some of them are much productive than others. And the company that hires and its size is also very important.

Romania guy - 05 05 12 - 18:23

I work in India and i am Java Jee developer and the things are same here as well.Job satisfaction is declining with every passing day.Here sort of work we get is maintenance project or passed on works ..you will find BodyShoppers a dime a dozen over here i know there are exceptions.I by myself carry strong dev profile and work hard to keep myself updated yet every time these bodyshoppers (who do no stuff but just fluff) snatch the credit from me.I dont understand how can a HR,PL’s with no tech background mint more money from companies just for blabbing in meetings as matter of fact its us who code and make business run in our code.

Neeraj Yadav - 05 05 12 - 20:14

@winnetou: I second every single word you’ve said. I’m in the 4200 – 6000 range now but leaving software development alltogether in the next month tu pursue the new unknown world of UX and product management.



@All: listen to winnetou, he is a wise man.



@Kristian: yes, absolutely. I myself have got my first PC when I was 13, started to work part-time as junior software developer with 18, but I’ve actually reached the break-even (neither damaging nor contributing) when I was 26, after the first 4 years of full-time work.

I’m 36 now.



Hope that helps.

exclamation - 06 05 12 - 10:23

A business is all about strength. You buy apple product because you don’t have e strength to do it yourself. You ask an accountant because you don’t know how to do it yourself. S the pricing power is massively important. It so happen that collectively, developers have no skills for promoting their work, and a social convention happens to say that doing technical thing is trivial (let’s do it in India… . Also it is easy to screw employee developers, because they are employee who mostly dont talk to the boss. They don’t have the vision (I know… . So they are constantly being out down, and sorry to say, there is no end to that… It is structural

Nicolas - 06 05 12 - 13:19

CANADA

– Bach. CS degree – Masters E-Biz degree – 5 years experience

$5k/month



I agree that developers and programmers the world over are paid far too little for what they do (sitting idly in an office, forgoing the body’s necessary sunshine, fresh air, physical activity, staring at a screen, racking your brain for hours on end to solve somebody else’s uninteresting problem)... like most professions globalization has hurt rather than helped us. The most talented are silenced, ignored and given the most dead-end positions, while the “talkers” and shameless self-promoters are rewarded handsomly. I’m finding this out the hardway and making some changes to walk both lines.

bcmoney (link) - 07 05 12 - 12:22

I saw some amount for the Romanian market… Man, those are waaay too low. You should ask for a raise asap.

JustAGuy - 07 05 12 - 13:28

Here in Malaysia, I am getting around 500 euro/month. 2000 euro? oh that’s around 4x higher.

Virion - 09 05 12 - 05:20

you can employ a senior programmer with 2200 euro in China

Wu_Tao - 10 05 12 - 03:57

In china, you just need pay 2000~3000 RMB to junior, come…. then you can hire much more…. with 2200 euro.

Arthur.Li - 10 05 12 - 04:48