LuckyFool Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 9009 Posts #1



That's like asking me:

"who would you take Jessica Alba or Megan Fox?"

"Uh I'll take both plz kthx?"



All of this being said I'm going to jump into a mini rant now which compares the feeling of playing a good game of broodwar vs playing a good game of sc2 and risk/reward elements between the two.



I'd forgotten how epic it was winning games in broodwar. The sense of accomplishment that you get when you win is awesome, (especially from a terran players perspective) YOU won the game through superior tactics, gameplay, micro, positioning, build, control, game sense... It was YOU that won that game through YOUR solid play and nothing else. (ok maybe it was the other guy screwing up sometimes, but it's still up to you to exploit his mistakes) the level of attachment between mind and game feels so deep in broodwar. When you were nervous it showed so sharply in your play. When you weren't exactly playing your best the dropoff would show so harshly. On the other side when you did hit your marks in games you were rewarded so much... Maybe my emotional attachment with broodwar still just runs much deeper. Maybe it's because the game has been so figured out and can be played at such a ridiculously deep level.



Bottom line is playing and winning in broodwar is just so good. I was able to manipulate the controls of the game to do things that I wanted. When you control correctly "most" of the time units obey. Nothing is 100% though, a build could counter another build but maybe a unit misfires, maybe an scv blocks something, maybe a mine kills 5 goons... These epic uncertain elements helped forge broodwars identity over the years. When you misclick or control more sloppily your units will become scattered or less effective. When I'm focused and in a strong state of mind I typically play so much better and it's reflected through my gameplay. When I'm tired or even slightly mentally fatigued my abilities drop off so quickly and it's immediately evident in my gameplay. One or two games and my best friends in broodwar could obs and tell I was tired, making uncharacteristic mistakes, sloppy timing, any number of errors and they would show up in the field of play immediately.



When you lose you have no one to blame but yourself. The drive to improve both mind and understanding of the game is probably what kept me interested for YEARS and why I played broodwar more (and eventually became the only game I played) than any other game.



Preparing for broodwar competitions and lans was immensely stressful for most top players. Ask Day9, Machine, Nyoken or any top broodwar player who competed in big events. Controlling nerves is half the battle when competing in a live event. Day9 wouldn't even talk to people when it came close to tournament time, others had massive nerve issues or anxiety. When nerves are effecting you negatively in broodwar it can severely impact your game. Having a clear mind is insanely important.



sc2 its important to keep nerves down too, it's just as easy to slip in macro or misclick but the nature of the game is more forgiving in this regard. It's more important to keep a clear mind with playing solid strategy and executing it than mechanics.



Winning in sc2 is fun, but sometimes (more often than not) winning doesn't feel as much of an accomplishment. Sometimes winning can feel stupid actually. I mean sure it's great, you won the game and beat your opponent, you played amazingly, you made great tactical decisions and microed decently or macroed well... But I can't help but feel kind of let down sometimes, like it wasn't all me that won the game, that it wasn't my hard work, strong mental mindset, dedicated practice that helped me win that game. It's almost as if the game is playing itself in some aspects which creates a dis-attachment that you almost never felt in broodwar. Or you're taking advantage of something in the game that honestly isn't balanced. Take for example the proxy thor scv allin by terran in sc2, as my scvs cluster around the thor, preventing him from targeting it with anything more than his 2-3 stalkers, all I do is watch and wait for him to gg. Sure this is about to be patched out and will become nonviable but this is just one extreme example of something that exists in sc2 that you wouldn't see in broodwar. There are plenty of other strategies or tactics that are similar to this on a lesser extent. Or builds where you literally can't do anything to defend. If you go some 1-1-1 in TvP with a fast raven and the protoss goes 3gate + voidray push you literally will always lose. There's almost no way you could "hold on" with like you could in broodwar. There's no "chance" factor anymore to let you pull off super greedy or risky builds...especially with high ground and/or things like worker drilling not existing anymore, if he has vision of your tank on the high ground you're not going to be holding and it's as simple as that. If he has a zealot or lings in your mineral line you can't drill and glitch them out. A risk in broodwar you took when you got overgreedy going for mineral lines was workers glitching the unit out and possibly your zealot kills nothing. But there is of course a chance it could kill 3-4 scvs making it worth it. But to have the risk/reward there was something that made playing and watching so exciting, you were always wondering what decisions the player will make next and if their risks will pay off or not. Sure there are risky builds in sc2 but the risk/reward factors you had in broodwar that made for the most exciting moments like reavers, mines, hold lurkers, these kinds of things just dont exist in the linear, repetitive world of sc2.



which leads me ultimately to my main point, the simplicity and lack of mind/control depth is just making sc2 seem too repetitive. Sure there are plenty of people who absolutly love sc2, and you probably won't see many top players really complain about this, they're all contracted to play sc2, most of them play a game as their career, who would complain... top players are interested in money/fame/sponsors/team, sure they want to play a fun game and sure they probably have fun playing. They want the masses to love the game and offer great services like coaching...but what do some of them really think? (specifically hardcore broodwar players- I remember asking around during the sc2 beta and I got some pretty interesting answers)



look at sc2 and where it is right now after being released for nearly 6 months. There are some really great builds and we see some great games, but there is so much total crap, builds like the 12 drone rush where zerg literally doesn't even have to micro the drones and it's really strong especially on these really dumb tiny maps like steppes of war. Or 2rax scv allins, or allins ALL the time in general TvZ on tiny maps... That's another repetitive aspect of sc2, same old maps. Iccup is pushing their maps and their maps are awesome, but you can never practice them on ladder and blizzard won't use them in tournaments like the GSL. The majority of the blizzard maps are so small the entire metagame of sc2 has developed around these small maps. All you'd have to do is add a natural expansion and like a bit of extra path to the broodwar map blood bath and you have the broodwar version of steppes of war. Can you imagine playing broodwar on maps this small? Giving the other player almost no time to react from when the units move out to when they are knocking on your door? 2 rax scv allin every game ez! Oh wait we see that ALL the time in top level TvZ's right now in sc2....In broodwar you could leave an scv or ling at the exit of their natural and if they move out, morph sunks, lay mines, make a bunker... with something like a 5 second walk time from natural to natural in sc2 this type of scouting/reactionary based play is gone. Now you just make the bunkers and if they dont move out sell them for full refund. No risk/reward at all whatsoever. In broodwar bunkers were awesome but there were risks, if you make too many, or in a slightly useless location you paid the price. In sc2 there is no price to pay.



Wheres the strategic depth in that? Where's the room for improvement? Where's the room for brilliant play?



Gah I know I said I didn't really want to try and compare broodwar to sc2 but dammit with sc2 working on replacing broodwar it's impossible not to at least draw comparisons through the elements of both games styles. Basically my bottom line is while sc2 has great potential, I'm watching it slip into a repetitive game that doesn't include nearly enough risk/reward for my liking, it's very linear which isn't all that bad but honestly can become boring. Maybe my preferences are just changing...but by not having these hit or miss type aspects that you saw in broodwar sc2 will run into dangers of just not being as deep as broodwar became.



can sc2 get to the deep levels we see in broodwar? of course, and that is why I reserve my judgments and don't hold bitter hatred against sc2 and I do have fun playing the game, I just have concerns that I felt others might be interested in reading about.



Damn that got way longer than I intended if you read all that I applaud you.



So as the year comes to a close and I was writing a separate blog of everything I did in 2010 in Starcraft I got an urge to play broodwar again and in the past 2-3 days after playing 20 or so games for the first time in 4+ months (no I'm not planning on quitting sc2 and coming back to broodwar hardcore) I've realized a couple things. This blog isn't intended to be an sc2 or broodwar bashing blog (I'm so sick of broodwar and sc2 users hating each other) I consider myself hopelessly obsessed with both games. Broodwar is a refined masterpiece and sc2 is an amazing work in progress, you can't really gain anything from compare them directly or picking one that's better at this point, they are separate games that should be treated separately. But I still like to draw parallels or differences between how I feel when playing both. Hardcore sc2 haters who I've encountered in the past 2-3 days on iccup have asked me this question: "What game do you think is better, broodwar or sc2?"That's like asking me:"who would you take Jessica Alba or Megan Fox?""Uh I'll take both plz kthx?"All of this being said I'm going to jump into a mini rant now which compares the feeling of playing a good game of broodwar vs playing a good game of sc2 and risk/reward elements between the two.I'd forgotten how epic it was winning games in broodwar. The sense of accomplishment that you get when you win is awesome, (especially from a terran players perspective) YOU won the game through superior tactics, gameplay, micro, positioning, build, control, game sense... It was YOU that won that game through YOUR solid play and nothing else. (ok maybe it was the other guy screwing up sometimes, but it's still up to you to exploit his mistakes) the level of attachment between mind and game feels so deep in broodwar. When you were nervous it showed so sharply in your play. When you weren't exactly playing your best the dropoff would show so harshly. On the other side when you did hit your marks in games you were rewarded so much... Maybe my emotional attachment with broodwar still just runs much deeper. Maybe it's because the game has been so figured out and can be played at such a ridiculously deep level.Bottom line is playing and winning in broodwar is just so good. I was able to manipulate the controls of the game to do things that I wanted. When you control correctly "most" of the time units obey. Nothing is 100% though, a build could counter another build but maybe a unit misfires, maybe an scv blocks something, maybe a mine kills 5 goons... These epic uncertain elements helped forge broodwars identity over the years. When you misclick or control more sloppily your units will become scattered or less effective. When I'm focused and in a strong state of mind I typically play so much better and it's reflected through my gameplay. When I'm tired or even slightly mentally fatigued my abilities drop off so quickly and it's immediately evident in my gameplay. One or two games and my best friends in broodwar could obs and tell I was tired, making uncharacteristic mistakes, sloppy timing, any number of errors and they would show up in the field of play immediately.When you lose you have no one to blame but yourself. The drive to improve both mind and understanding of the game is probably what kept me interested for YEARS and why I played broodwar more (and eventually became the only game I played) than any other game.Preparing for broodwar competitions and lans was immensely stressful for most top players. Ask Day9, Machine, Nyoken or any top broodwar player who competed in big events. Controlling nerves is half the battle when competing in a live event. Day9 wouldn't even talk to people when it came close to tournament time, others had massive nerve issues or anxiety. When nerves are effecting you negatively in broodwar it can severely impact your game. Having a clear mind is insanely important.sc2 its important to keep nerves down too, it's just as easy to slip in macro or misclick but the nature of the game is more forgiving in this regard. It's more important to keep a clear mind with playing solid strategy and executing it than mechanics.Winning in sc2 is fun, but sometimes (more often than not) winning doesn't feel as much of an accomplishment. Sometimes winning can feel stupid actually. I mean sure it's great, you won the game and beat your opponent, you played amazingly, you made great tactical decisions and microed decently or macroed well... But I can't help but feel kind of let down sometimes, like it wasn't all me that won the game, that it wasn't my hard work, strong mental mindset, dedicated practice that helped me win that game. It's almost as if the game is playing itself in some aspects which creates a dis-attachment that you almost never felt in broodwar. Or you're taking advantage of something in the game that honestly isn't balanced. Take for example the proxy thor scv allin by terran in sc2, as my scvs cluster around the thor, preventing him from targeting it with anything more than his 2-3 stalkers, all I do is watch and wait for him to gg. Sure this is about to be patched out and will become nonviable but this is just one extreme example of something that exists in sc2 that you wouldn't see in broodwar. There are plenty of other strategies or tactics that are similar to this on a lesser extent. Or builds where you literally can't do anything to defend. If you go some 1-1-1 in TvP with a fast raven and the protoss goes 3gate + voidray push you literally will always lose. There's almost no way you could "hold on" with like you could in broodwar. There's no "chance" factor anymore to let you pull off super greedy or risky builds...especially with high ground and/or things like worker drilling not existing anymore, if he has vision of your tank on the high ground you're not going to be holding and it's as simple as that. If he has a zealot or lings in your mineral line you can't drill and glitch them out. A risk in broodwar you took when you got overgreedy going for mineral lines was workers glitching the unit out and possibly your zealot kills nothing. But there is of course a chance it could kill 3-4 scvs making it worth it. But to have the risk/reward there was something that made playing and watching so exciting, you were always wondering what decisions the player will make next and if their risks will pay off or not. Sure there are risky builds in sc2 but the risk/reward factors you had in broodwar that made for the most exciting moments like reavers, mines, hold lurkers, these kinds of things just dont exist in the linear, repetitive world of sc2.which leads me ultimately to my main point, the simplicity and lack of mind/control depth is just making sc2 seem too repetitive. Sure there are plenty of people who absolutly love sc2, and you probably won't see many top players really complain about this, they're all contracted to play sc2, most of them play a game as their career, who would complain... top players are interested in money/fame/sponsors/team, sure they want to play a fun game and sure they probably have fun playing. They want the masses to love the game and offer great services like coaching...but what do some of themthink? (specifically hardcore broodwar players- I remember asking around during the sc2 beta and I got some pretty interesting answers)look at sc2 and where it is right now after being released for nearly 6 months. There are some really great builds and we see some great games, but there is so much total crap, builds like the 12 drone rush where zerg literally doesn't even have to micro the drones and it's really strong especially on these really dumb tiny maps like steppes of war. Or 2rax scv allins, or allins ALL the time in general TvZ on tiny maps... That's another repetitive aspect of sc2, same old maps. Iccup is pushing their maps and their maps are awesome, but you can never practice them on ladder and blizzard won't use them in tournaments like the GSL. The majority of the blizzard maps are so small the entire metagame of sc2 has developed around these small maps. All you'd have to do is add a natural expansion and like a bit of extra path to the broodwar map blood bath and you have the broodwar version of steppes of war. Can you imagine playing broodwar on maps this small? Giving the other player almost no time to react from when the units move out to when they are knocking on your door? 2 rax scv allin every game ez! Oh wait we see that ALL the time in top level TvZ's right now in sc2....In broodwar you could leave an scv or ling at the exit of their natural and if they move out, morph sunks, lay mines, make a bunker... with something like a 5 second walk time from natural to natural in sc2 this type of scouting/reactionary based play is gone. Now you just make the bunkers and if they dont move out sell them for full refund. No risk/reward at all whatsoever. In broodwar bunkers were awesome but there were risks, if you make too many, or in a slightly useless location you paid the price. In sc2 there is no price to pay.Wheres the strategic depth in that? Where's the room for improvement? Where's the room for brilliant play?Gah I know I said I didn't really want to try and compare broodwar to sc2 but dammit with sc2 working on replacing broodwar it's impossible not to at least draw comparisons through the elements of both games styles. Basically my bottom line is while sc2 has great potential, I'm watching it slip into a repetitive game that doesn't include nearly enough risk/reward for my liking, it's very linear which isn't all that bad but honestly can become boring. Maybe my preferences are just changing...but by not having these hit or miss type aspects that you saw in broodwar sc2 will run into dangers of just not being as deep as broodwar became.can sc2 get to the deep levels we see in broodwar? of course, and that is why I reserve my judgments and don't hold bitter hatred against sc2 and I do have fun playing the game, I just have concerns that I felt others might be interested in reading about.Damn that got way longer than I intended if you read all that I applaud you.