The Conversation

Aytakk : So goth is now graduated from subculture to culture? I did not get the memo. What prompted the change?

Nephilim : Why do you believe we are a mere subculture? What are we a subsection of? Humanity? We don't bother calling those things sub-whatever. We just call them cultures.

Aytakk : Goth is a subculture from alternative culture

Nephilim : How is "alternative" a culture? And if you're talking about Alternative as some sort of grouping, goth precedes that by a fair number of years.

Zakkarrii : I think goth more as a culture at this point, like right now today definitely big enough to be a culture. Subculture seemed to fit more to me when there were other subcultures to compare it to, but I think we’ve outgrown the status. But I tend to match whoever is speaking. We know what we’re talking about. Most of the time.

Aytakk : Ok counter-culture then. Mainstream culture vs counter-culture goth is a subculture of counter-culture. I have always seen alternative as being the opposite of mainstream (the hippies were pretty darn alternative) but if we must use correct names to be technically correct.

Nephilim : Changing "subculture" to "counter-culture" doesn't really change the argument. Because counter-culture doesn't define anything specifically cultural. What is counter-culture changes depending on what culture you're talking about. Yet goth is fairly universal regardless of where it is. It speaks to a similar harmony whether you're in Norway, England, the US, Australia, Japan, etc. There are differences, but those things are much less definitive than the aspects that make us similar. In that respect goth is a thing, it is not a counter-thing. We are not defined by any particular social norm that we don't adhere to. It's more universal than that.

Aytakk : So what you are saying is it has grown beyond subculture by being universal. Are any other music subcultures the same?

Zakkarrii : Counter culture also seems to suggest we actively go against what mainstream is...and we don’t.

Nephilim : Perhaps there are other music-based groups who transcend being a subculture. But frankly, I'm not a part of them, so I have no inclination to argue in favor of that perception.

Nephilim : Zakkarrii I agree. Although definitions of "counter-culture" usually also include a caveat of being "at variance" with popular social norms. So, one could say the way Aytakk is using that term falls more under that explanation.

Aytakk : Would metal be a music culture with the vast genres as subcultures perhaps? Unlike goth there are big differences in metal genres in music and dress. If goth is used as an umbrella culture do we include industrial and similar in it too? This is the problem I see with culture it becomes an umbrella.

Nephilim : Maybe. But I don't care.

Zakkarrii : I think it’s possible other music genres could move the way goth has sure. But that’s the thing, it’s navigating this current umbrella form with different and some incorrect ideas of goth. I mean we barely have a vague idea of what goth culture is, but that’s kind of the point of these groups and scenes in cities is so we all get to have a share in defining it. It’s only been 40 something years, at least we’re this far. Just because it’s got age doesn’t mean it’s permanent, locked to this singular idea. And I beginning to think we can only get close never truly able to lock it down. So we gonna have to talk about it some more...

Nephilim : I always support talking about it more. :)

Zakkarrii : It just seems strange that the harder we fight to keep some walls up the more stuff gets in. So people want to be here in some way (in some case whatever way). I think you’re going to start seeing the online “spokesperson” things become way more significant to the culture than maybe some of us would like. But that’s dominant media of the time...maybe it’s time to fight on that level...which some of us have been doing.

Aytakk : I am close to being convinced as thinking about it if we go place to place goth isn't a subculture of the place like it used to be. But here is the thing. Say I start using goth culture instead of goth subculture. Someone will notice the change and ask "Hey! Before you were saying goth is a subculture, now it is a culture? What gives?" and I need to explain it somehow.

Nephilim : I'd like to think that can be done in a way that's not simply decrying every spokesperson who comes along. Not because I think any of them deserve to be a spokesperson, lol, but just because I think that would grow tiresome. Have you seen any exemplary methods besides that?

Nephilim : Aytakk Just ask them why they think we're a mere subculture. :)

Aytakk : Could say over time goth has become a worldwide culture as it tends to be the same across the world now? We used to use goth as an umbrella term but since that time many parts of it have evolved away. Case in point : industrial/EBM 80s/90s vs industrial/EBM today, It could possibly be argued some outside things have evolved in as well.

Zakkarrii : What makes a culture is really the large question...and here it’s like trying to define goth. But we definitely have some sort of etiquette for how we interact with other members of the culture (generally people are pretty chill), we have literature, some sort of language (I.e. baby bats), music obviously, and artistic style though loosely interpreted...but then we points where it’s when do certain activities become “goth” and lend credibility to the person performing it, how valid is that use of the label in the eyes of the community...etc.

Nephilim : Yeah, I think that's a decent short explanation. I prefer my approach because I like long discussions about this sort of thing, and if most of my replies are questions I think (could be totally fucking wrong) it feels more like they're arriving at the same answer and you're just guiding them, rather than trying to lay down the law like an elitist prick.

Aytakk : That's the thing. Music subculture is very easy to define to genres and fans of those genres who gather together with further defining aspects of its members (fashion, aesthetics etc).

Nephilim : That right there could even be an argument for goth being a culture. We are so much more than just that.