

El Quintron

I've got 96 tears and 96 eyes

Premium Member

join:2008-04-28

Tronna El Quintron Premium Member Not justified This is an underhanded effort to undermine privacy, and outsourcing it to ISPs.



The existing laws in Canada are such that you can use Cybertip if you're an individual and an ISP has a "duty to report" if it know that Child Pornography is taking place.



This is an attempt to destroy privacy, cloaked as "protecting the children" nothing more.

xenophon

join:2007-09-17 xenophon Member Re: Not justified Reporting known cases is one thing, policing all of your ISP activity is another. Sounds OK to report known cases but ISPs are screwed if responsible for content that the users post. It's like the post office being responsible for child porn that is being sent through the mail.



El Quintron

I've got 96 tears and 96 eyes

Premium Member

join:2008-04-28

Tronna El Quintron Premium Member Re: Not justified said by xenophon:



It's like the post office being responsible for child porn that is being sent through the mail.

It's like the post office being responsible for child porn that is being sent through the mail. That's exactly what I'm saying. They have a duty to report, not to spy on their customers.

nibs

join:2004-02-12

Ohio nibs Member Gentlemen Think of the children please.



J E F F4

Whatta Ya Think About Dat?

Premium Member

join:2004-04-01

Kitchener, ON 1 recommendation J E F F4 Premium Member Re: Gentlemen said by nibs:



Think of the children please.

Think of the children please.



Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true... I have two kids so I am not sure what the problem with this law is. If the ISP knows of some child porn happening, then they should report it.Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...

kaila

join:2000-10-11

Lincolnshire, IL 1 recommendation kaila Member Re: Gentlemen Sadly, one can't legislate morality. This effort like all the others won't solve the problem it's being aimed at, but will cause a few problems and headaches for others.



Shamayim

Premium Member

join:2002-09-23 Shamayim Premium Member Re: Gentlemen said by kaila:



Sadly, one can't legislate morality.

Sadly, one can't legislate morality. Actually morality is legislated all the time. Theft, murder, gambling, prostitution. All are moral issues that are legislated as crimes.



BBBanditRuR

A Warm Embrace

join:2009-06-02

Outer Rim BBBanditRuR to J E F F4

Member to J E F F4

The Internet is not the source of child pornography. People are the source. If there was no Internet, would CP still exist? They are (as El Quintron hinted), masquerading the removal of privacy rights with the standard "For the Children" show.



El Quintron

I've got 96 tears and 96 eyes

Premium Member

join:2008-04-28

Tronna 1 recommendation El Quintron to J E F F4

Premium Member to J E F F4

said by J E F F4:



I have two kids so I am not sure what the problem with this law is. If the ISP knows of some child porn happening, then they should report it.



Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...

I have two kids so I am not sure what the problem with this law is. If the ISP knows of some child porn happening, then they should report it.Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...



I'm sure you love your children a lot, but throwing out your freedom and privacy (and by proxy theirs as well) isn't going to build a better world for them. I can sympathize with you but the laws we have in place do exactly what they're supposed to do. ISPs have a duty to report if they know it's going on, and individuals can report anonymously, eliminating repercussions for individuals who report.I'm sure you love your children a lot, but throwing out your freedom and privacy (and by proxy theirs as well) isn't going to build a better world for them.



lester2

join:2005-09-01

London, ON 1 edit lester2 to J E F F4

Member to J E F F4

said by J E F F4:



said by nibs:



Think of the children please.

Think of the children please.



Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...

I have two kids so I am not sure what the problem with this law is. If the ISP knows of some child porn happening, then they should report it.Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...



EDIT: I'm not saying they should do nothing but some kind of undercover international sting op would probably be they way to go these days to catch the worst of the worst. This isn't going to catch any "real" predators they use VPNs and Torr among other things. All this is going to do is put extra strain on Indy ISPs to pay for the hardware required for monitoring and storing your web history. It sounds like a great idea but it means absolutely nothing except someone is watching and recording everything you do online and they real criminals use tools to get around it easily. If spending a little over 10 bucks a month or free software to get around this is all you have to do whats the point of making it a law? I also don't think its a good idea to have all my financial records at some centralized location managed by some guy at an ISP it just seems ripe for misuse.EDIT: I'm not saying they should do nothing but some kind of undercover international sting op would probably be they way to go these days to catch the worst of the worst.



james16

join:2001-02-26 james16 to J E F F4

Member to J E F F4

said by J E F F4:



Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...

Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true... Sadly, a lot of people would rather give up their right to privacy under the guise of protecting their children ... and they believe that the rules will actually protect any children. If that were true...



NormanS

I gave her time to steal my mind away

MVM

join:2001-02-14

San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616

Asus RT-AC66U B1

Netgear FR114P

NormanS to J E F F4

MVM to J E F F4

said by J E F F4:



I have two kids so I am not sure what the problem with this law is. If the ISP knows of some child porn happening, then they should report it.

I have two kids so I am not sure what the problem with this law is. If the ISP knows of some child porn happening, then they should report it. Sadly, a lot of people would rather have complete net freedom ... and they believe that tip sites are good enough. If that were true...

Sadly, some people seem to think that the only way to protect the children is to install a camera in every adult's bedroom in the country.



Hyperbolic argument, to be sure; but I am just answering hyperbole with hyperbole. That is already a requirement, without adding another law.Sadly, some people seem to think that the only way to protect the children is to install a camera in every adult's bedroom in the country.Hyperbolic argument, to be sure; but I am just answering hyperbole with hyperbole.

33358088 (banned)

join:2008-09-23 2 edits 33358088 (banned) to J E F F4

Member to J E F F4

if you think it prevents where 100% of this pron is done then your (wrong)



thats right 100% of it never even happens in canada

its imported



so just who are they thinking of to catch the 5 perverts left in canada?

they want this addon cause its for ACTA google that sir

quit being a shill



its time we started adding civil right rather then allowing hollywood retards make laws



if you want to live in the usa go

-----------

goto techdirt.com also and look at the pervert admin who when they put cameras they could turn on at any time without permission enjoyed over 10000 photos.

this also leads to abuse

Tristan

join:2006-09-10

Nepean, ON ·Start

Tristan Member False positives, and complete accidents I can see this now...



People who surf the web for legitimate 19+ porn stars (and people who avoid porn) clicking on links that they believe are legitimate, only to discover the link actually points to some naked 18 year old, and then being charged under this new bill.



The problem with a bill like this is it does nothing to protect the people who visit websites through malicious, maligned, and deceitful links. Nor does it protect people from hackers that break into web servers and add or re-write links to these disgusting websites.



It basically makes the web more dangerous for those of us who want to conduct our legal private interests on the internet.



Canada has been making a lot of really bad decisions about the Internet. It is pushing Canada's internet to the bottom of the list - where soon enough, Canadians won't even want to use the internet, because we'll be put at a disadvantage due to poor speed, we've already lost our competitive edge, terrible penetration into outlying areas, content bobbies, and the risk of being charged for something even when we try our best to stay legal.



I think it's good to go after the websites that offer up illegal smut, but at the same time, but to go after quite possibly innocent people and ruin their lives in the process over a link that can be re-written by hackers, or through automated techniques (cross-site scripting, ad injection, redirection, etc.) is plain wrong.



This will give people even more reason to distrust ISP's.



I'm reminded of a computer I cleaned up for a family member - I discovered a single porn movie on the computer, and knowing the person who uses this computer, and the plethora of malware I removed from this PC, it is too easy for naive computer users to be exploited by the internet's nefarious dark side. It's good to protect our young, but if innocent people get hurt in the process, then the law is just as bad as the criminal act.

ragingwolf

join:2003-04-22

Nepean, ON ragingwolf Member Re: False positives, and complete accidents This law *may* catch a few offenders, however, it most certainly will catch a lot of innocent people in the crossfire.



Mis clicks happen pretty frequently, viruses, child porn etc. can and will be found in such links. Mis clicking a link or two should not be able to essentially ruin your life, which is what any case involving child porn will accomplish. Don't think I could of said it better myselfThis law *may* catch a few offenders, however, it most certainly will catch a lot of innocent people in the crossfire.Mis clicks happen pretty frequently, viruses, child porn etc. can and will be found in such links. Mis clicking a link or two should not be able to essentially ruin your life, which is what any case involving child porn will accomplish.

patcat88

join:2002-04-05

Jamaica, NY patcat88 to Tristan

Member to Tristan

Commercial porn companies must love this bill. All "amateur" porn online just became CP.

tbone2006

join:2006-07-22

Abilene, TX tbone2006 Member Let me be first to say... If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about



XoX

join:2003-08-19

Qc, Canada 1 edit XoX Member Re: Let me be first to say... said by tbone2006:



If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about



How do you know that the next website you visit does not contain anything illegal in Canada?



How do you know that the next link you click is not hijacked to send you to some weirdo site with illegal content in Canada but not where the site is hosted?



People think that only pedophile while get busted but i am pretty certain that it will go the same way that the lawsuit from MPAA and the RIAA did in the state. I mean lots of people who had no idea ended up being sued just because someone had their ip. The only trouble is being sued for child porn is a lot worse than being sued for pirated stupid music. Not only that but even if they do not press charge against you, if you ended in the news, good luck with the people around you. I hope your are joking because if not, you do not seem to get it...How do you know that the next website you visit does not contain anything illegal in Canada?How do you know that the next link you click is not hijacked to send you to some weirdo site with illegal content in Canada but not where the site is hosted?People think that only pedophile while get busted but i am pretty certain that it will go the same way that the lawsuit from MPAA and the RIAA did in the state. I mean lots of people who had no idea ended up being sued just because someone had their ip. The only trouble is being sued for child porn is a lot worse than being sued for pirated stupid music. Not only that but even if they do not press charge against you, if you ended in the news, good luck with the people around you.

tbone2006

join:2006-07-22

Abilene, TX tbone2006 Member Re: Let me be first to say... Damn people of course it was a joke did you not see the



XoX

join:2003-08-19

Qc, Canada XoX Member Re: Let me be first to say... said by tbone2006:



Damn people of course it was a joke did you not see the

Damn people of course it was a joke did you not see the That is why i say i hope you are joking but sadly some people will say the same thing and believe it... Until they end up at the receiving end of it...

Tristan

join:2006-09-10

Nepean, ON ·Start

Tristan to tbone2006

Member to tbone2006

said by tbone2006:



If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about



Considering how governments, law enforcement agencies, and ISP's make really bad decisions on a daily basis, there will be more than a few innocent people that get burned by this.



If it happens to you, at least you had nothing to hide. Right?



As someone who understands the technology and what is possible, this bill (like so many others) scares me.



I clean systems for friends and family. It's amazing how crapped up these systems get with malware. My in-laws had malware that stores pictures in a virtual hard drive on their main hard drive, and used their bandwidth to store and retrieve pictures from that virtual drive. For all they know, it was being used to serve child porn. Should they go to prison because some dork surreptitiously installed software and served illegal images via their computer?



Will the [RCMP|ISP|COURT] understand that it wasn't their fault? Before or after their reputation is dragged through the mud? Of course, you know that your newly deputized ISP is going to get it right the first time, eh?Considering how governments, law enforcement agencies, and ISP's make really bad decisions on a daily basis, there will be more than a few innocent people that get burned by this.If it happens to you, at least you had nothing to hide. Right?As someone who understands the technology and what is possible, this bill (like so many others) scares me.I clean systems for friends and family. It's amazing how crapped up these systems get with malware. My in-laws had malware that stores pictures in a virtual hard drive on their main hard drive, and used their bandwidth to store and retrieve pictures from that virtual drive. For all they know, it was being used to serve child porn. Should they go to prison because some dork surreptitiously installed software and served illegal images via their computer?Will the [RCMP|ISP|COURT] understand that it wasn't their fault? Before or after their reputation is dragged through the mud?



XoX

join:2003-08-19

Qc, Canada XoX Member Re: Let me be first to say... said by Tristan:



said by tbone2006:



If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about



Considering how governments, law enforcement agencies, and ISP's make really bad decisions on a daily basis, there will be more than a few innocent people that get burned by this.



If it happens to you, at least you had nothing to hide. Right?



As someone who understands the technology and what is possible, this bill (like so many others) scares me.



I clean systems for friends and family. It's amazing how crapped up these systems get with malware. My in-laws had malware that stores pictures in a virtual hard drive on their main hard drive, and used their bandwidth to store and retrieve pictures from that virtual drive. For all they know, it was being used to serve child porn. Should they go to prison because some dork surreptitiously installed software and served illegal images via their computer?



Will the [RCMP|ISP|COURT] understand that it wasn't their fault? Before or after their reputation is dragged through the mud?

Of course, you know that your newly deputized ISP is going to get it right the first time, eh?Considering how governments, law enforcement agencies, and ISP's make really bad decisions on a daily basis, there will be more than a few innocent people that get burned by this.If it happens to you, at least you had nothing to hide. Right?As someone who understands the technology and what is possible, this bill (like so many others) scares me.I clean systems for friends and family. It's amazing how crapped up these systems get with malware. My in-laws had malware that stores pictures in a virtual hard drive on their main hard drive, and used their bandwidth to store and retrieve pictures from that virtual drive. For all they know, it was being used to serve child porn. Should they go to prison because some dork surreptitiously installed software and served illegal images via their computer?Will the [RCMP|ISP|COURT] understand that it wasn't their fault? Before or after their reputation is dragged through the mud? Exactly... Accused of being a pedophile is something serious even if it is just accused of... It is not something that should be joked about because an innocent life could be destroyed just because of the word accused of being a pedo.

33358088 (banned)

join:2008-09-23 1 edit 33358088 (banned) to tbone2006

Member to tbone2006

said by tbone2006:



If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about

after that fuck off



and if yo knock at door anytime ill oblige you. nohting to hide here either , hting of htis is not about hiding bad stuff



DO YOU TRUST THESE BABOONS we have in govt with your private data? With all the biker stuff floating around and drugs and bribes and money laundering in the conservatives over the years and at present can you balme me for being concerned



and how does this in fact stop the making and production of kiddy pron as i stated elsewhere 99-100% of it isn't even made in Canada



lets get that army of ours and go invade the countries harboring it and creating it and end that places ability to be a haven for sickos,

no thats not the conservative way , if they cant see it it dont exist right?

absolutely not one child helped for this law a very very very very small number of possession sickos and thats it for a HUGE HUGE expense we would be better off hiring 20 top notch hackers and a elite mortor platoon to go in and blow up some buildings wold be far cheaper and without places to hide it the so called market for sickos dries up.



and btw we already have some of the most strict laws regarding this kinda crap.



ya know this one

that anything you do on the net is subject to Canadian law first as a jurisdictional premise.

this is how a lot of the people you read about in news getting busted for this sick crap get nailed



a honey pot is setup and they go and get busted

WHAT i want to know is what happens if some bad arse hacker decides to drop a virii on his enemy and it auto goes there ....well you know that never would happen right....... then come on over pm me you can have a lookafter that fuck offand if yo knock at door anytime ill oblige you. nohting to hide here either , hting of htis is not about hiding bad stuffDO YOU TRUST THESE BABOONS we have in govt with your private data? With all the biker stuff floating around and drugs and bribes and money laundering in the conservatives over the years and at present can you balme me for being concernedand how does this in fact stop the making and production of kiddy pron as i stated elsewhere 99-100% of it isn't even made in Canadalets get that army of ours and go invade the countries harboring it and creating it and end that places ability to be a haven for sickos,no thats not the conservative way , if they cant see it it dont exist right?absolutely not one child helped for this law a very very very very small number of possession sickos and thats it for a HUGE HUGE expense we would be better off hiring 20 top notch hackers and a elite mortor platoon to go in and blow up some buildings wold be far cheaper and without places to hide it the so called market for sickos dries up.and btw we already have some of the most strict laws regarding this kinda crap.ya know this onethat anything you do on the net is subject to Canadian law first as a jurisdictional premise.this is how a lot of the people you read about in news getting busted for this sick crap get naileda honey pot is setup and they go and get bustedWHAT i want to know is what happens if some bad arse hacker decides to drop a virii on his enemy and it auto goes there ....well you know that never would happen right.......

Tristan

join:2006-09-10

Nepean, ON ·Start

Tristan Member Re: Let me be first to say... Exactly. It's about trust.



We can't trust anyone to get this right. All the trust in the world won't stop child pornography.



Child porn creators, purveyors and collectors aren't stupid people. They are sick - they have a mental illness, and are quite selfish and self-centred. These same people are already using VPN's and other technology to beat the system (and this bill). And let's not underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon - it's still easier and less risky to trade in illicit material in person.

justsomeguy8

join:2007-10-08

N5M3Z3 justsomeguy8 Member applause I applaud this legislation and hope it passes without any issues.



XoX

join:2003-08-19

Qc, Canada XoX Member Re: applause said by justsomeguy8:



I applaud this legislation and hope it passes without any issues.

I applaud this legislation and hope it passes without any issues. If you want to have everything monitored by your ISP you should move to China... They already have everything you seem to love.



Transmaster

Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20

Cheyenne, WY Transmaster Member Oh Please, again X 7 "Oh Think of the Children" So you honestly think a law such as this is going to have any impact at all with this disgusting issue. Ok Canada put up your version of the bamboo firewall China has, and even then things get through. We have an organization here in the states that looks for this stuff and transmits it to the FBI division that watches over this sort of thing. They do as good a job as can be done but because most of this stuff comes in from off shore there really isn't much they can do about it. Short of blocking off whole regions on the planet this stuff is going to be available. This is nothing more then a lazy way for politicians to make out like they are doing something, but they are just sitting on their fat a$$'s passing the buck.

munky99999

Munky

join:2004-04-10

canada munky99999 Member Project Cleanfeed Canada Project Cleanfeed Canada: They already do it. Quite successful as far as I read. I also havent heard of any censorship or controversy because of Cleanfeed.



I think though they just want to legislate it incase they back out of cleanfeed. Moreover there's good potential this is a planned attempt to create the nanny-isps who then are forced to be able to quickly and swiftly attack copyrights.

MaynardKrebs

We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.

Premium Member

join:2009-06-17 MaynardKrebs Premium Member VPN's/ encrypted mail from now on will be normal Telco's don't monitor your phone conversations 24/7 (NSA feeds excepted).



Why should an ISP monitor your other electronic bits 24/7 (NSA feeds excepted)?



Murdoc49

Premium Member

join:2009-02-08

Manitowoc, WI 1 edit Murdoc49 Premium Member Why must it be this way to pass a law? So what happens when someone innocent gets the rap because someone can't read the logs and whatnot?



Just hope the MAFIAA group doesn't get wind of adding it's to save the children to pass there stupid garbage quicker.



elios

join:2005-11-15

Springfield, MO elios Member Re: Why must it be this way to pass a law? bit late for that there was a article a few weeks ago to that effect

that RIAA and MPAA LOVE laws like this makes it easier for them to shove there laws in

akhen957

join:2010-02-11

Hamilton, ON akhen957 Member An idiotic law.. ...drafted by politicians with absolutely zero knowledge of technology.



If they had any IT consultation about this, it was certainly ignored under the mass of feel-good-and-get-re-elected 'save the children' morality.



There is absolutely no way for ISPs to pull this off.



China has been trying and failing for years to control and filter the Internet. The offenders who have a clue are just going to buy an offshore encrypted vpn in some free country. Or they'll install and use Tor. Or any number of secure methods.



ISPs are just going to implement some lame half-arsed filter to show they're compliant and forward all results to avoid fine. They are not going to dump more money into this than they have to, and partly because they know how pointless it is.



The authorities are then going to be swamped, where most are false positives. Instead, they could be infiltrating the distribution rings and cracking down on the people who actually MAKE child porn for profit.



The parents on here will lament the sort of regression they allowed to occur one day, because it will mean passing off damaged goods to the next generation.

NetKrazy

join:2007-11-29

Littleton, CO NetKrazy Member Is this really an invasion of privacy?



But I don't see it calling for DPI and inspection of active data transmission or am I mistaken? Instead it asks that the provider report any credible tips or occurrences that fall under the criteria. This would allow an agency to sift through the details and establish if further action is taken but this isn't calling for people to search it out.



Quoted from the same article Hence, nothing in this legislation would require or authorise a person to seek out child pornography

hence no DPI, hence no true invasion of privacy. Sticking with the snail mail analogy of earlier this is basically saying if you hear that your neighbour is committing mail fraud your obligated to report it.



please correct me with details on the legislation if I'm wrong. It's one thing to say that ISP's can't be held under safe harbour if they knowingly allow the content to reside on their servers and take no action to prevent it. It's another thing to actually police or inspect via any other means to ascertain if that content is in transmission. Please correct me but this isn't calling for that level of invasion. What it's calling for is that if the ISP receives a report and confirms it to be a valid case that it is not allowed to simply terminate the customer (or his account rather) it is instead obligated to report this event to the enforcement agency. If it receives a notice that content is being served from one of the ISP's customers then it has the obligation to report it and not just take standard AUP/TOS approaches. At the same time insuring that the content is protected for use as evidence further down the line.But I don't see it calling for DPI and inspection of active data transmission or am I mistaken? Instead it asks that the provider report any credible tips or occurrences that fall under the criteria. This would allow an agency to sift through the details and establish if further action is taken but this isn't calling for people to search it out.Quoted from the same articlehence no DPI, hence no true invasion of privacy. Sticking with the snail mail analogy of earlier this is basically saying if you hear that your neighbour is committing mail fraud your obligated to report it.please correct me with details on the legislation if I'm wrong.

Desdinova

Premium Member

join:2003-01-26

Gaithersburg, MD Desdinova Premium Member Hmmm... Every time the child porn laws pop up, someone says "Think of the children!" and I feel compelled to point out that lovers of kiddy porn already are...



zalternate

join:2007-02-22

freedom land zalternate Member police already surf many sites For anyone that has a website in canada(or the States), if they look in their user logs, they will see many hits from the Canadian RCMP. Since the RCMP are already looking for sites that have this type of illegal content. And the RCMP should already be contacting the site host server to get the webpage owner arrested(maybe).



Then there was that RCMP guy in the southern interior, who for a day and a half, spent his time looking at all the naked adult ladies. He got something slapped for it and told 'not to get caught again'.

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24

Cleveland, OH sonicmerlin Member Wasted Effort People downloading child porn are not committing the heinous acts. If the government wants to prevent exploitation, they should go after the producers, not the viewers.



It's not that I condone the viewing of child porn, but going after the viewers is like going after everyone who takes crack in the "war on drugs". It's a waste of effort and doesn't solve the problem.



cpsycho

join:2008-06-03

Treadeu Land cpsycho Member For the children lets lock all our children in an institution. This way no one can get to them and they will be safe.



ReformCRTC

Support Your Independent ISP

join:2004-03-07

Canada ReformCRTC Member This is just another boogeyman... to slide our way whilst getting the draconian copyright bill passed.