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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 412, with my guest, Kjell Bjorgen. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfuncation, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site, uh, for this show is mentalpod.com. Mentalpod, also the, uh, social media handles, uh, you can follow us at on Twitter and Instagram. There's also a Facebook page: facebook.com/mentalpod. Today's episode was, uh, recorded live at Sisyphus Brewing in, uh, Minneapolis, Minnesota. We recorded about a month or two ago. And, uh, Kjell mentions in the podcast, um, taping an album of his stand-up, and it is, those tapings are, if you're listening to this the day it comes out, which is, uh, Friday, December 7th of, uh, 2018. That taping is—there's two tapings: tonight at 8 o'clock and tomorrow night at 8 o'clock. And you can get more information by going to sisyphusbrewing.com, or just search, uh, Kjell's name and, um … something else (laughs). He also mentions, uh, starting a podcast; uh, that has not launched yet, uh, so don't, don't look for that.

[00:01:45] But, um, before we get to the interview, um … I, I wanna talk about the concept of happiness. I was talking to somebody the other day, and they mentioned, uh … trying to find happiness. And … you know, these are just my opinions, but … happiness, to me, is not something that we can pursue. And other people have said this a lot more eloquently than I'm sure I will, but, to me, pursuing happiness is … predicated on the idea that we don’t have enough and we're searching for something outside of ourselves to change our mood, our state, how we're feeling. So, there's an element of want in it. And, to be in a state of wanting is … to not really make peace with the present moment. And that doesn’t meant that we can set goals, um, and want to expand our lives. But, waiting for those external things or circumstances outside of ourselves to bring us happiness, uh, is a hamster wheel of, of pursuit. And, you know, the, the times in my life when I've gotten the external things that I longed for—for instance, you know, uh, uh … getting my face on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard, or getting a TV show, uh, things like that. It, it was exciting to get those things, but they didn’t bring me any type of, of long-term happiness. And it took me a long time to understand the difference between my ego being excited by something and me experiencing a state of contentment. I, I personally … believe that contentment and peace are things that are achievable for me, and not by wanting them, but by letting go of expectations that I have about things outside of myself, uh, and understanding the difference between what I have control of influence over in my life and what I don’t, and letting go of any attempt at controlling what I don’t have control over, and just trying to bring principles to the things I do have control of. Principles, uh, you know, like honesty, compassion, patience. A lot of things that don't come naturally to me, but I find—and, and there's a certain amount of faith in that, because to, for me to walk through fear, for instance, that I will be financially okay next month. You know, for me to just focus on doing my job, you know, doing the footwork of, uh, you know, trying to find an advertiser or, um, you know, a guest that will maybe bring in more download numbers. Those things I, I can make an attempt at. But ultimately, I have to turn the results of that work over, cuz I don’t have control over that. And so, once I do the footwork, the things that I do have control over, and I stay out of the results of that footwork, I need to go into a place of faith that whatever happens, I will be okay, and I will be able to find peace within those circumstances. And, in the 15 years or so that I've been in support groups and been sober, it's been my experience that that is doable. But to achieve that, I have to let go of my conception of what success looks like, of the schedule that it's gonna on, and what I think I really need to have an enjoyable life. And what I've discovered is that, the idea of attaining things to be happy is a dead-end street. The moments of happiness or joy that I've had in my life have come from being in a state of accepting where I am in life. Again, that doesn't that I don't have goals and I'm not working towards them. But acceptance of where I am in any given moment and appreciating what I have … the byproduct of that is I get to experience sometimes happiness, sometimes joy, but at the very least, a sense of peace and contentment. And that, to me, is, is doable. One of the things that has stood in my way to finding peace and occasionally getting its byproduct, happiness or joy, is I had to be willing to let other people be disappointed. I had to let go of trying to care for other people's emotions. Trying to control their happiness. For instance … taking phone calls of somebody who was toxic, um, who I lose my peace around, because it drains me, or it, it aggravates me. Because it's not healthy for me. You know, where is the line between having compassion for somebody else and their flaws, or distancing yourself from them because they're toxic, and, you know, I could spend another hour talking about that. But just suffice it to say, you know, from support groups and therapy, I've, I've kind of attuned that part of my senses that will say, this is a person who is not healthy for me. There is really no more effort that I can put into this relationship to try to make it work. And I'm going to have to accept that this person will be disappointed by … with what they are getting from me in a relationship. I have to be willing to go to that place to achieve peace and the potential of happiness, because if I don’t, I'm in a state of anxiety and feeling cornered. And … at the mercy of other people's toxicity unhealthy, and unhealthiness because I am not taking care of myself. And being selfish in a healthy way. And, I don’t know if that, if that makes sense, but I guess all of that is to say, is that … trying to deal with the feeling of agitation when it comes up … has been the best thing that has ever happened to me mentally and emotionally. And, ignoring that voice in my head that says, "Oh, you're selfish," you know, "because you don't wanna hang around this person that you feel drained by." No! We deserve, we are worthy of not being drained by somebody. And this includes relatives. Now, if you're talking about parents and, you know, relation to their children, uh, you know, there's a responsibility there that, obviously, is a lot more complicated than, than what I'm talking about. But, I see so many people who cannot get out of a state of agitation because they are unwilling to disappoint relatives. Relatives who aren’t willing to grow, who aren’t willing to look at their part in things. Who are sick. They're not bad people. But if we're not willing to disappoint those people, if that option is off the table, I don’t believe we can truly find peace … and ever have a chance at, you know, those moments of happiness or joy, uh, that, to me, are kind of like … you know … It, it's kind of like … If, if peace and contentment is the casino, happiness and joy is the slot machine that, you know, who knows when it's gonna come, how frequently, uh, but I'm not gonna get it if I'm, if I'm not in the casino. And I could not hate that analogy anymore as I look back at it (laughs), cuz I hate Vegas (laughs). It's everything I hate (laughs). I used to love it, but … Anyway, I, I, I hope that, I hope that makes sense.

[00:11:49] I just wanna read two, quick awfulsome moments. Actually, before I do that, I wanna, uh, give a shout-out to our sponsor, BetterHelp.com. They are an online, uh, therapy provider, and I'm a big fan of theirs. I've been doing online video therapy for two years with my counselor, Donna, and she is great. She's, uh, helped me in so many ways, continues to help me. And I feel so comfortable with her. I share everything with her. She's non-judgmental, um, but, you know, also will call me on my bs, if, if I'm, uh, if I'm not, if I'm not being honest with myself about something. So, to, uh, check it out, go to betterhelp.com/mental, and make sure you include the "/mental" so they know you came from the podcast. Fill out a questionnaire, and then they’ll match you with a BetterHelp.com counselor. And you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18. And I highly recommend it.

[00:12:51] Okay. This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself, uh, "Copper Hopper." And, uh, she writes—Actually, before I read that, I'm gonna read that one next. Before I read that, I wanna read this one. It's an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "I Wanna Die Jones." And he writes, "I started listening to your podcast about a month ago after relapsing into my latest depressive episode, complete with chronic binge eating. Every episode his filled with wisdom, understanding, and comfort. But, of course, the thing that has stuck with me the most is the way you describe that marshmallow fluff in an episode I listened to weeks ago. All this time, I've been tempted by the image you painted in my mind, but have been able to restrain myself. Finally, today, I gave in. I scoured the food aisle of the dollar store, found the fluff, and avoided eye contact (Paul chuckles) on my way out to spare the look of disappointment I would project onto the faces of everyone around me. Driving home, I wondered what was wrong with me. Why must all the messages of self-help and healthy behavior fall to the wayside over a jar of fluff? Now, I'm sitting in bed, eating marshmallow fluff out of the jar, and I think I see why. This shit is just so good (Paul chuckles)." That's so funny, because I read this last night, and I hadn’t had marshmallow fluff in probably three weeks. And I almost went to the cabinet to start eating it again. If it wasn’t for my high-blood-pressure diagnosis, uh, and my insomnia, I would probably have gone and done that. That's a, that's a whole other side story, uh, where, when I'm at with that, I won't, uh, bog this down with that. But, thank you for sharing that. That really made me laugh and all I can say is step away from the fluff. Step away from it. And if you're not gonna, use a tablespoon. Don’t kid yourself with a teaspoon.

[00:15:05] And this is, uh, the other awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Copper Hopper." And she writes, "I was almost kidnapped when I was 20 by a man who was wanted for kidnapping a 19-year-old girl. I was more terrified to tell my mom, than the fact that I was almost kidnapped because I knew she would say I was too fat or not good enough to be kidnapped."

Intro

[00:16:32] (Audience applause)

Paul: Keep it going for Sam Harriman, the owner. Or is it co-owner? Co-owner?

Sam: Owner.

Paul: Owner. Oh, did you buy, did you buy out, uh, your partner?

Sam: Yeah.

Paul: Intrigue (audience laughs). I'm so grateful for, for Sam, uh, bringing me into, to do these live recordings, uh, twice a year. It's so nice to meet you guys in, in person. Well, most of you. And, um … That gets nothin'? (audience laughs) Have we not, have we not woken up yet? Did we have a nap right until show time? But I'm, uh, I'm really glad you guys are here, and, uh, I'm excited for the guest that I have today. We did, uh, stand-up together years ago, and I knew he lived in, uh, Minneapolis. And so, when I found out that he was available to come on the show, uh, I was super excited. So please welcome Kjell Bjorgen. (Audience applause and cheers)

Kjell: Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks.

Paul: Now if you just do a tight 15 while I stand next to you and watch.

Kjell: (Laughs) Sure thing, I'll do that. Guys … guys like jokes?

Audience: Yeah!

Kjell: Sure. My name is Kjell. 'memer this joke, Paul?

Paul: Which, which one?

Kjell: You know it.

Paul: How's it go?

Kjell: It's, my name is Kjell. It's Norwegian. K-j-e-l-l. Pronounced "chell." Used to wait tables at the Bubba Gump Shrimp Company. And, uh, that's not the joke; please don’t laugh at my life (audience laughs). And my name is spelled out, uh, on the name tag: K-j-e-l-l. And this guy looks up; he goes, "K-j-e-l-l. Is it couch?" (Audience laughs) That's what someone said out loud. And you remember that, cuz you sat in the back of the green room.

Paul: Yes! And, I, I also remember this, this rant that you would go on. You were waiting tables at the time, and just about how tired you were of just mouth-breathing stupidity, um, ordering food …

Kjell: Yeah. Yeah (laughs).

Paul: You'd be, like, "It's Mahi Mahi, not Maui Maui."

Kjell: Right (laughs).

Paul: But you said it with such, such organic rage, that I was, like, "This guys is my new best friend."

Kjell: (Laughs) I can't believe that you remember that.

Paul: Oh, dude! I, I'm telling you, I loved your act. And I don’t laugh at 90 percent of comedy.

Kjell: Right. I mean, that's the way it is. Being a comic, you just get sick of it. And then, if you're waiting tables and you're a comic, you're on the front lines of dealing with people incessantly, so you really start to get intense and aggressive and angry. That's where I was.

Paul: Boy, you do.

Kjell: Yeah, me. Yeah, me. Most, and, and you.

Paul: I bury it. And then I watch Hitler documentaries to soothe myself.

Kjell: (Laughs) I watch UFO documentaries. So that's how I balance it.

Paul: What, what kind do you watch?

Kjell: UFO.

Paul: REALLY?!

Kjell: Yes (laughs).

Paul: I've always wondered, who the fuck watches that?!

Kjell: We're out there. We're out there. (Audience laughs)

Paul: Yeah. Yeah.

Kjell: You guys watch UFO—

Paul: We're done.

Kjell: Look at that. Look at this, right there.

Paul: Yeah.

Audience member: What happened in Roswell?

Kjell: Let's not go down that rabbit hole—

Paul: You know, I think … You know what I think happened at Roswell, is, is a bunch of nerds got food to feed on for the next 20 years. Forty years. No, I believe, I do believe that there's, there's stuff that we don’t know about that would freak the shit out of us. And I do believe that there is other life forms. But I don't believe we’re worthy of attention.

Kjell: Sure.

Paul: Maybe that's my own issues.

Kjell: Well, no, I get that. I, I think, I've honestly thought about why I do that, why I obsess about UFOs and all that, the paranormal. I think I'm so bored with life, that I, it's my escape to kind of entertain myself. Like, I just go to that place.

Paul: Oh, well maybe I'm kicking ass on another plane, you know. (Audience laughs) And this one's miserable. But, oh, one over! I'm taking life by the, by the balls.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: So, uh, we you, born and raised in, in Minnesota?

Kjell: (Clears throat) Excuse me. Born in Gainesville, Florida. But then—

Paul: Home of the Gainesville Ripper?

Kjell: Home of Tom Petty. Who's the Gainesville Ripper?

Paul: Nineteen-ninety, uh—sad, how much I know about serial killers (audience laughs). He was murdering college students. The guy's name was Danny, I forget what his, what his last name was. But, it, it was … terrifying what this guy was doing. And, um, they couldn't they couldn't, they couldn't find him. And so—I think he killed, like, six, uh, college people. And, but they were getting more and more violent. And, as if the first serial killing isn't violent enough. But, uh, oh yeah, it was all over the news in, uh, in, like 1990. And then they found him, kind of through happenstance. But they found a guy that they THOUGHT was the guy, and the guy they thought was the guy looked like a serial killer, as if it was in the dictionary, a picture under serial killer. And, so you thought, the guy had just, like, these wild eyes, and, like, nine full face scars going up and down his face. And I was, like, "Of course, he's killing people! That's the rational thing to do when life has dealt you that!" But, um, yeah, anyway. That was the, the Gainesville guy, and they, they caught his eventually.

Kjell: I'm surprised I never heard that. I just know Tom Petty is from there.

Paul: Yeah … who killed a lot of people.

Kjell: Tommy? Tommy Petty?

Paul: Oh! Vicious serial killer.

Kjell: I didn't know that.

Paul: But he could craft a hit—

Kjell: Oh, yeah.

Paul: Yeah. So we forgave him.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: No, a lot of great, uh, music out of Gainesville. I think the Allman Brothers, um, played there for a while there, too, before they moved to, Georgia? I could be wrong. I think they're—

Kjell: That's sounds right—

Paul: No, they're, maybe they're Daytona. Boy, have I gotten off track! Holy shit!

Kjell: No. You—I'm from, uh, born in Gainesville, and then I moved to, family moved to North Dakota, grew up in, basically in Minneapolis. For, like, a year in North Dakota.

Paul: So, North Dakota scarred you.

Kjell: Yes. Yeah, terribly.

Paul: There, there is nothing like nothingness to cause trauma.

Kjell: Yeah (laughs).

Paul: The trauma of tumbleweeds. Are there tumbleweeds in, in North Dakota?

Kjell: No, I just remember snow. Just a lot of snow—

Paul: Snow, snow, snow.

Kjell: There's snow here, too, obviously. But not like North Dakota.

Paul: And would have to, like, take a plane to go visit neighbors?

Kjell: (Laughs). Yeah, no. We just go in our moonboot and our snowmobile suits and walk around and have fun.

Paul: Yeah. That actually sounds kind of fun. Did you enjoy it, or were you too young to remember?

Kjell: You know, I honestly remember being at (laughs), like, in context of this, with this podcast, I remember being at the bus stop at that age and looking up at, like, the constant—cuz everyone hates the cold. I think when it comes to depression and seasonal, what do you call it, the seasonal …

Paul: Affective disorder?

Kjell: Affective disorder; thank you. I remember—

Paul: Why are you pointing at them?! I said it!—

Kjell: You said it, too. And then I as looking at you like that. We're including everyone. That feels good—

Paul: Can we make it about me?

Kjell: Yeah, I'm sorry (audience laughs).

Paul: Go ahead.

Kjell: (Laughs) So, it's like this (audience laughs) …

Paul: Kjell has turned to me now and is facing me … with the, with the, for the listener. Don't touch my knee.

Kjell: It's Paul. Pauly.

Paul: Or, go higher. One of the two. Do not lead me on in front of the people (audience laughs).

Kjell: (Laughs) I remember being that, and, like in second grade, first grade, and looking up to just, like, gray sky. I don't—the cold didn't really bother me, but that, there's no sunshine. And I remember thinking, like, first, second grade, like, "What the fuck; this sucks!" And I think that was my first memory of … probably not being a happy kid and maybe, like, a glimpse of depression. It was established right there.

Paul: Yeah! There, there is a, um, an intensity to, like, a November day, when it's 38 out, the sun's setting at 4:30 or, or—

Kjell: Yeah, right, right—

Paul: —5:00, you're back in school, there's something shitty for dinner (audience laughs), and you're just … there's not even any snow yet, but you can't do the normal stuff that you can do as a kid. And there, there is just a, a … I, I get it. It, it's … it's like … depression, the other parts of the year … is like a karaoke singer, and the fall depression is like Elvis in the late fifties.

Kjell: Yeah (laughs)!

Paul: You know. It comes and it has somebody—

Kjell: That really is a great way of describing it, because it (laughs) really is—

Paul: It has an entourage that takes its cape off as it comes in, on daylight savings day (laughs).

Kjell: Well, that is one of the things, when you make it through a winter in, uh, the Midwest. It, it, it almost puts you in a good mood by default, when you have that first spring day and it's warm. It's almost like, I feel better and lighter just because it's, you're not freezing your ass off and there's sunshine.

Paul: And that smell of, of the grass, you can suddenly smell earth, wet earth. Ah, love that! But then there's always just some patches of ice, and it's, they're still kind of black with, with dirt. And you're, "Can't wait 'til those are gone (chuckles)." Yeah.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Are you laughing at me or with me?

Kjell: I'm (laughs) …

Paul: BOTH?! (Laughs)

Kjell: Well, no. I, I completely understand what you're saying. I, I, yeah. I empathize with that. For sure.

Paul: So, what was … Give us some memories of, uh, childhood, whether it was, uh, North Dakota or Minnesota. Was it, did you say Minneapolis?

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Kjell: Yeah. Memories like, you're talking about, like, growing up—

Paul: You just said mammaries. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: Mammaries?

Paul: Am I wrong, or did he just say mammaries?

Kjell: Memory. Memories.

Paul: Yeah, he did.

Kjell: Okay. Memor-, memories? Like, uh, at, what age are we talking about? So, when … as a kid, I remember just kind of … being bored with life. And then you get older and then, um … I don't know. I don't really have specific memories of childhood. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Paul: That's a bad thing.

Kjell: Is that, I can't (laughs) …

Paul: I've never seen that be a good thing (audience laughs). Oh, yeah! My body blocked out all the fun (audience laughs)—

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: —to save me (laughs).

Kjell: Well, I don't know if—

Paul: You might just have a bad memory. But you're a comic as well? Those are, those are two (audience laughs)—

Kjell: Yeah, right?

Paul: —two red flags.

Kjell: I know (audience laughs). I know. I think … I have flashes of memories of good times. And I have a whole bunch of stuff I don't remember. But there's nothing like a traumatic childhood. There was, there were instances of, um, like, I remember yelling and, um, and wanting to just kind of get away, remember that sort of stuff.

Paul: From …

Kjell: Uh, from, from yelling. (Laughs) To get away from people yelling at me.

Paul: Okay. Like parents?

Kjell: Parents, yeah. Parents … yeah. So, my mom was a (clears throat)—excuse me—

Paul: A yeller?

Kjell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, she come from, her dad was a … alcoholic. Gone for quite a, like, go on binges, for three weeks at a time. So, she grew up with that and I think she did the best she could with us. But I think she was kind of, kind of, fell into that. And, um, just would yell and scream. And I remember being a kid, thinking this isn't the way it should be. And … um—

Paul: Where was your dad?

Kjell: Well, he was there. But he's just kind of (laughs), uh, not really …

Paul: Lump on the couch?

Kjell: Not a lump on the couch, but very cerebral, I guess is a way of putting it. He's just kind of … he's a doctor, um, radiologist. Doesn't really … you know, he would go to all our sporting events, go to all our baseball games, all the football games. But when it came to being a kid, I don't think, he just doesn’t do well with kids. He likes them when they're … athletic and, and able to be kind of somewhat adults.

Paul: Gotcha. So he was kind of bored.

Kjell: No, I wouldn’t say bored. I would say annoyed. He was bothered (laughs).

Paul: Wow, that's worse! I thought you were gonna let him off the hook! Like, wow!

Kjell: (Laughs) No, I mean, I don't, I don't, it's, that's just the, yeah, I don’t …

Paul: Yeah, that's, that's kind of how my … Actually, my dad was the opposite. My dad was kind of interested in us when we were in rookie league and maybe little league. And then, he just—But, then again, maybe his alcoholism was, was progressing. But, um … Share some good memories, if you, if you can remember any, of growing up, especially with your, with your parents.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Cuz sometimes, I feel like we just throw parents under—

Kjell: Right! I don’t wanna do that!

Paul: —the bus. And, and it's—

Kjell: I don't wanna do that. I don't—

Paul: And that's not my intent. My intent is to try to understand, you know, things that lead to messes like you and I.

Kjell: So, what's a good memory?

Kjell's brother: That’s' a good question. I dunno.

Kjell: My twin brother's in the audience—

Paul: WHERE?

Kjell: He's right there, to the right of the pole.

Paul: He's your TWIN brother?

Kjell: Yeah.

Kjell's brother: Yeah.

Paul: Oh, but you, you're, you're not identical twins, are you?

Kjell: Yeah, well …

Kjell's brother: Yes, we are.

Paul: You are?

Kjell's brother: Yeah (audience laughs). Yeah, yeah. It's weird to watch this from off the stage, because it's, uh, yeah, very surreal, I guess. But, yeah, we, good memories, that's a good question. (Unintelligible) (Audience laughs)

Paul: Kjell's brother is having a, a, for the listener, is, is, uh, also not able to come up with any good memories.

Kjell: We did. We had good memories. I just, I can't, I mean, we, we had fun at certain points, and I don't know when that was—

Paul: Do we need to get the police involved?

Kjell: (Laughs) No. No. No. All is good. All is good. I just … You talk to comics, and a lot of comics are damaged in some weird way. And I don't think that I had any, like, much more of bad childhood than anyone else. I just think that it's, you try to figure out was I born with depression, if it came from what I was raised with or what, what, where's it begin and how does it formulate—

Paul: Was it the chicken or the pill.

Kjell: Right (laughs), right. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. It … that is an interesting question. And, I think about that often. I, I also sometimes think that … some people are more sensitive than others. And so, somebody who's environment, you know, maybe rolled off their back, or they were more resilient, um, or …

Kjell: Yeah. I think that's a thing to—Well, it’s like when you first started stand-up comedy. I look back on … I had panic attacks. My first—I didn’t know I had panic, like, I didn't know I had that, I was gonna have panic attacks. But the first one was on stage—

Paul: That's a great time.

Kjell: Yeah, at the Improv. At the Improv in LA for, uh, like, a showcase set. I remember David Spade was in the audience. I walked by David Spade, and he's, like, "Hey, man. Just be yourself. Have fun." And I look at the audience, and them Jennifer Love Hewitt is in the audience. And I'm, like, "What the fuck is going on?" It was like a dream. And then I went on stage and had a panic attack, and just kind of floated above my body and … uh, I don’t remember much. I just remember my friend was in the audience, who's a comic. He's one of those guys that just doesn't, he just shoots it straight.

Paul: Right.

Kjell: And I, I'm, like, "That didn't go well, did it?" And he does, "Ahh, no." (Audience laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) Did you—

Kjell: (Laughs) Forget it. And I was devastated. And then I climbed into a bottle of whiskey and smoked weed for a week and a half straight. And I'm, like …

Paul: Atta boy.

Kjell: Yeah. It was, it was, I couldn’t … I was, like, "I can’t do this. This is my whole life, this is my career, and I fucked it up." But now, it's like, looking back, it's, like, how … of course, you can deal with that. Like, everyone has shitty sets, and you move forward. But at the time, I wasn't, I didn’t know how to deal with that. And I was, like, "I'm ruined. I'm done."

Paul: One of the shittiest sets I ever had was a, a, my Comedy Central half-hour. Absolutely bombed. And my friend, Jimmy Dore said, "I can't lie, that was rough!" Yeah. It was brutal. But, fortunately, they could, in post, they could make it sound like I did—

Kjell: Right, they sweetened it—

Paul: —I did good. But, oh, it was a train wreck! A train wreck.

Kjell: Because why, they weren’t your audience?

Paul: They weren’t my, my crowd. I think they just didn't like me. They were like the people at school.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: And, I had a set, one time, at Largo, uh, which was so brutal, that the only laugh I got was, I ran out of water, and I picked up a bottle of water that was just there and had, like, a drop in it. And, and I realized, as I tried to get this drop out of it, I said, "I don't even know who's water this is." And that was the only laugh I got (audience laughs). And (laughs) … and after the show, I went to the bar, and people scattered, like I had a bomb (audience laughs). It was, I call it the hoop skirt, where it's, like, you gotta (audience laughs)—

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: —gigantic hoop skirt, and nobody can get within 15 feet of you. So, buddy, you're not alone. You're not alone. But, you …

Kjell: Is that weird? It is a weird thing, when especially afterwards (laughs) … I'm fine not getting laughter. It's people do, they're, they wanna get away from you. Like, it's a weird, like, disease, kind of—

Paul: They don't wanna have to lie!

Kjell: Yeah. It's an awkward thing.

Paul: Yeah, and they know you're terrible and that you're a terrible person (audience laughs).

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: But, at least, you ha-, you had the excuse of a panic attack.

Kjell: Uh …

Paul: I just sucked.

Kjell: No! But then, there were … yeah, but then there were other instances where it's like, I did the Live at Gotham, which is Comedy Central's show. It's a seven-minute set, but I wasn’t used to cameras and, you know, waiting around and fighting off that panic attack and then thinking (clears throat) … So, I had, I did this sad news, powerfully forgettable, is how I'd describe it …

Paul: Is that what the New York Times called it?

Kjell: Yeah, yeah (laughs). And, I was like, "If I can't do this, then what's the point of doing comedy. If I can't even rise to the occasion of these television sets, why am I even doing this?" And I think that's when a part of me was like, "I'm done with comedy." As opposed to when I look at it now, it's like, "Why didn’t I say this is a stepping stone? This is what you learn from. And the more you do it, the more comfortable you get." I didn't see it that way. I just, it was, like, "I can't do this, and I suck."

Paul: Well, I would imagine, too, that, of course, that’s the same brain that’s sending you into a panic. So, it's like, why would that brain all of a sudden, you know, get a hold of itself and, and …

Kjell: Right. It's weird. That's, it's, that's a, I kinda have to mind fuck myself sometimes in order to …

Paul: You wear a condom? (Audience laughs) Please be safe.

Kjell: Sometimes. Sometimes.

Paul: Please be safe.

Kjell: (Laughs) But, yeah—

Paul: You go through the ear or the mouth?

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Try the nose. Feels like the first time (audience laughs).

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Come on. That's, that’s funnier than you're, that's funnier than you're giving me. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: You guys, that's really funny! That's really funny, you guys. They're getting uncomfortable. (Audience laughs)

Paul: I think they're shocked that I'm this dirty.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: I'm sorry I keep interrupting you, but—

Kjell: No! It's, it's fi-, it's, um … It's, I think you're … I mean, I'm very neurotic and like, uh, when I was in high school playing baseball. And, I got this thing called thrower's block. Have you heard of that?

Paul: No.

Kjell: Thrower's block. (Unintelligible)

Kjell's brother: That is, like, the Chuck Knoblauch (unintelligible)—

Kjell: Exactly! Chuck Knoblauch was the Minnesota Twin, played here who got it. And, uh, Steve Sax, it ruined his, I think it ended his career. But it's like, you get so in your head from fielding the ground ball and throwing the ball to first, that mecha-, the natural mechanics of your body-mind connection, you can't … it disp-, the, those …

Paul: The muscle memory leaves you.

Kjell: Not even muscle memory. It disrupts everything. So you can't, you throw it straight on the ground in front of you or you throw it, it, there's no control.

Paul: Wow.

Kjell: So, it was a mind fuck. If you have time to think that's when I was able to fuck myself over. If there's, if I'm up at bat, there's no time to think, I can't fuck it up. But if you have time to think, that's when I would fuck, I would … sabotage myself. So I was trying to figure out how not to do that; how, how do you, how do you successfully not fuck yourself over, by thinking I'm not gonna fuck myself over—It's just a weird—

Paul: It's a loop!

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: It's a loop. Anxiety is definitely, definitely a loop, as is, uh, OCD, from, from what I understand, because the compulsion of, uh, you know, is this gonna, is this compulsion gonna come up again, brings the anxiety. And then, that's, you go to the ritual or whatever it is to, to soothe yourself. And, um, and, yeah, people having panic attacks about having a panic attack.

Kjell: Right.

Paul: One of the things that somebody, uh, told me is that a panic attack will not kill you. It feels like it, uh, is going to, but it cannot kill you. It was a homeless person that told me that, but—

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul:—I tipped them, and I was on my way. No, that is, that is true. So, anybody out there that had panic attacks, it, um … I mean, people go to the fucking emergency room for it. That's how real it feels to them.

Kjell: You've never got a panic attack?

Paul: The only one I ever had was, um, after the Northridge earthquake, uh, which was … It's suck a horrifying earthquake. And we have just moved to LA. We'd been there six days, and it hit. And, my then-wife, uh, who, uh, was a comic, went on the road to do stand-up, so I was in th-, our apartment by oursel-, by myself. And I made the decision to smoke pot. And was laying on the bed, absolutely convinced the next second another earthquake was, was going to happen. And, I could not believe that it wasn’t going to happen the next second. And it just, my heart was beating out of my chest. I was sweating.

Kjell: Well, that what surprises me, is because when I first met you, I think we were doing Peoria (clears throat). Apparently there's this theater, and the, there was like a balcony. It was an old theater … and we did this show, and it was first night I was with them. And he's up on the balcony, and you're rolling a joint, and he goes, "Hey, Kjell. You wanna smoke some weed?" And it was like the coolest Matthew McConaughy moment (audience laughs) … I was like, cuz it was one of my first gigs on the road, and he was such a nice … You deal with so many gross, narcissistic comics that don't know to wash themselves or brush their teeth—

Paul: Get to know me. Get to know me. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: But you were always (laughs) … You, you were so supportive and helped me work out acts. Like, "You gotta slow down—" just very supportive. And when you were like, "You wanna smoke some weed?" I'm like, "This is really cool. Comedy's great. What a fun, fun thing." But then you go on the road and you start dealing with other people who are, just, raging … like alcoholics and drug addicts and it's like ugh, this becomes ugly and gross. But you didn’t really smoke that much weed, where you'd, you would get—

Paul: I didn't smoke, uh, if I had to perform, I would smoke af-, it must have been after the show.

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. Because—oh! I had a panic attack on stage, the one time I got high and went on stage, um, in Cincinnati. And my mouth got so dry (audience laughs) … and I ran out of water (audience laughs), and I couldn’t remember my act, and my upper lip stuck to my teeth (audience laughs). So I looked like a ventriloquist dummy (audience laughs) who stuttered. It was fucking awful! (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: It was awful. So, uh … Yeah, the first time, uh, we worked together, I just, uh, immediately liked you. I, I liked your, your stand-up. I liked hanging out with you. And, and then we worked together again. And you had changed, because there was a part of you, in a good way, that kind of gave up, that gave up thinking what a stand-up comic should be. And you were just using the stage to kind of process your life. But you made it funny. So, it, it was so organic to who you were, I was, I was blown away.

Kjell: Oh, thank you. I mean, it was … it was definitely fun. There are a lot of times when I feel more comfortable on stage than one-on-one with a person, which is an odd thing. I think a lot of performers have that.

Paul: Absolutely. Are you nervous right now?

Kjell: No, I'm just hot (laughs).

Paul: Yeah?

Kjell: Just hot. That's why I'm sweating (laughs). (Audience laughs) Yeah, you got a towel or a headband or anything? (Audience laughs)

Paul: Anything from the 70s will do. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs) Yeah, so it, it was, it was, uh, the second time we worked together though, I was … cuz this is the, I, my interpretation. Cuz we spent, we hung out and had fun that first time. Second time was a year later, maybe. And, I don't know if you had … stopped drinking at this point, because I don't ever remember you being a hardcore drunk or anything. But you didn’t really hang out after the show, and we didn’t, I was just like, "Ah, that's weird, whatever."

Paul: I must have been sober.

Kjell: Yeah. And, but, we … Looking back, I'm like, I wonder if, in hindsight, like, where I'm that comic that was starting to get … uh, having fun on stage. And then you're like, at the end, where you go like, "This is not … comedy on the road sucks. And I don’t want any part of this." And like, and you're dealing with some comic that is new and doesn’t know any better, it's like I don't want any … I don’t wanna hang out with that person or spend time with them cuz it's annoying or … I was, like …

Paul: You, you think that, that's how I felt about you or that's how you felt about the other comic?

Kjell: I thought that you were kind of like, "Enough with all this shit."

Paul: No, not you. It was early in my sobriety, I didn't want to be around it, um, because I think my sobriety was maybe a little tenuous. Even though I did stay sober and am still sober, um, I just kind of wanted to protect myself. And, you know, when you're used to being the loud, drunk one, um, and then you're sober, the loud, drunk people are annoying, and then you also realize, "Oh my god. I've been annoying for most of my life!" (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Now I'm sober and I still am.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: But, no. It, um, was, was nothing personal.

Kjell: Oh, yeah. I, I, I know that now. It was just, it was interesting. And, um … uh, I lost my train of thought, but it was, you know, it was fun-. This is what it was, was when, god I hadn't spoken with you in a couple of years, and someone had told me, another comic; I can't remember who it was, and they said, "Paul is, uh, got, he's in 12 steps." Right? Is that what he, 12 steps?

Paul: Yep.

Kjell: Yeah. And, I was like, "What the fu-" Cuz I never, you never … struck me as a person that was out of control, that had any issues with any of that. You see comics that clearly do. You had no signs of that. And, I remember the comics that, I think he was doing it for, uh, for networking reasons, (audience laughs), for the, for the business, for the industry. I'm like, you must be. Connections. Making connections.

Paul: Oh my god!

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: As, as desperate a human being as I am, that's even below me.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: That is below me. But let, let's get back to the, the panic attacks and stuff like, like that. Is there depression in there as well?

Kjell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Paul: And you talked about that gray, kind of thing in, in fall. How, how did, would it present itself, you know, after you were wearing a snowsuit.

Kjell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, yeah. But it got progressively worse. And then, um, I … I got the Chicago Comedy Festival after a couple years of comedy. And I'm like, that should be, like … I remember thinking, "This is exciting. This is fun." Like, I'm … And then, but I was still depressed. I'm like, if I'm depressed and I just got this, why, there's something, there's an issue. So I got, I started Prozac. And then, uh, it felt … Like, the first month, I felt like I was, I had mono. I just slept all the time. And then the body, my brain, chemicals, everything adjusted. And I felt like I can get up in the morning, and I'm not starting off the bottom of a well, you know? It was just like, much easier. And then after eight months, I'm like, "Well, I'm cured." So I stopped taking Prozac (laughs). (Audience laughs)

Paul: Welcome to the club!

Kjell: Have you done that, too?

Paul: How 'bout, anybody applaud who has ever. Ever taken meds and then got off them because you're like, "I don't need these. I feel great." (Audience claps) Idiots! All of us … idiots. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: And I STILL think about it! I still think, "Well, maybe my body has repaired itself somehow, miraculously, and I don’t need them." Yeah.

Kjell: Yeah, it's weird. Well, I have that myth of, "You're not gonna be creative. It's gonna stifle your creativity and all that stuff." And it's like, "Well, you're not gonna be creative if you're sleeping 24 hours a day in your dad's basement. You're not really accomplishing much—"

Paul: Which you were actually doing, right?

Kjell: Yeah, I was. I was (laughs) doing that.

Paul: To be fair, it' a nice basement. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs) It's dusty rose. It's gorgeous.

Paul: Yes.

Kjell: It's funny, cuz I, when I heard … you, when you first started this podcast, I had heard it, and I had sent you a message. It was, it was before … saying I love your formula of your podcast; it's so interesting. And I was sending it from my dad's basement when I was 28 years old, drunk and depressed (laughs). And, it's so, it's so weird for you cuz now I'm, um 45 years old. I've got my own one bedroom apartment and I deliver pizzas. So, life does get better, you guys. (All laugh) Thank you, guys! We're all anti-depressants!

Paul: You know—

Kjell: (Unintelligible) Wellbutrin! (Audience laughs)

Paul: You know, you gotta get out of the basement to deliver a pizza, right?

Kjell: Yeah (laughs), right.

Paul: You must have been older than 28 though, cuz I've only been doing the podcast since 2011, for eight years. So …

Kjell: 2011, okay. Well, I would like to say …

Paul: It doesn’t matter.

Kjell: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. I just don't (laughs) wanna be that old living in my dad's basement. It's so embarrassing to talk about.

Paul: Well, talk about what it feels like, cuz I know there are a lot of listeners that get out of college, they have a huge amount of debt, they can't find a job, and they move back in with their parents, and all of the issues that they struggle with are then kind of becoming, um, you know, triggered by being in that environment, on top of having the anxiety about making a living and discovering who they are.

Kjell: Well, that’s what 's interesting, because I remember it was Christmas time and I was in his basement, and the family was coming over, like cousins and brothers and sisters. And I was so far—Looking back, it's weird, but I, I was so far gone that I didn’t even wanna get out of bed. Like, I'm not getting out of bed …

Paul: This is after you went off the pills, or is this before the pills?

Kjell: I've been on all of them, and I don't know if this was in a break or in-between because this is the first time that I've been consistently on Prozac, where I've … it's been over two years, and I haven’t switched or just stopped taking it. And, I never felt a full kind of recovery from depression, as they do now. But either way, I was depressed (laughs) to the point of—I didn't have any bills. I didn’t have any debt. I didn’t have anything, but I didn’t have any desire to go out and do anything. But, uh, what I did have, I had a comic friend of mine just talk to me in the last couple weeks, and he was, I could tell he was at this place. He's at that place, he just didn't care. He was, he's got no, uh, family. He's got this, uh, it was clear he was wicked depressed. I was thinking, "What could I say to him that I wish someone would have said to me?" It's like, I don't, there's nothing you can say, but it's like, you had those moments of, I'm so glad I didn’t do anything stupid because I had such a fun moment with this person aft-, like there's moments that you have that you … It seems like it's pointless, and you'll never, ever have a fun moment with someone. But … you do. Like, you, you're in a weird kind of rut. And so, I kind of gave him that, I told him what my situation was, living in my dad's basement and, um … There's not, I don't know if there's any advice. There's just, like, I know what that feels like, and it can get better.

Paul: That's … that, that's it. What you, what you said is the perfect thing, and say, you know, if you, if you need me, I'm, I'm here for you in any, in any way that I can. If you need to talk, you need help making an appointment, uh, you know, to go see somebody or, you know, uh, find a support group, that's, um … And, and let that person know that you, you do care about them, because one of the lies that depression tells us is that we're a burden, that nobody really cares, that it's never gonna get better, and that this is who, the real us. And all of those things, it's, it's the opposite of that, in fact, and one of the ways that I know that my alcoholism or addiction or mental illness is fucking with me is when I used the words "never" or "always," uh, and am … obsessing about the past or the future.

Kjell: Right. Yeah (clears throat). But it's like, when I, it came to … Like, your depression, would you have … a desi-, like, did it paralyze you from like, not even being interested in nothing? I was interested in nothing. Nothing mattered to me.

Paul: Yeah, yeah. I've been there. And, and couldn’t do anything. Couldn’t open mail. My … you know, I used to joke that my stack of mail had snow on the top of it, it was so high. It was … I would go four months without opening mail.

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. Cuz I just, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t wash dishes. I would get up at noon and I would be back in bed by two.

Kjell: So, but I still feel like, I'm, I kinda can revisit that. I can be, uh, not lazy, but not, I, not productive. And …

Paul: That's okay. That's okay.

Kjell: Is it, you promise (laughs)?

Paul: I got up today at noon, and I took a nap at 3:30. But I don't beat myself up for it. You know, I, I … look at it like a flu. Like, it's a mental and emotional flu. And … when you have the regular flu, do you beat yourself up for, uh, not going to work or not getting a lot done? You know, the very moment when you need to be your own best friend, why would you be the meanest person to you?

Kjell: But I do feel guilty when it's, like, you … not like … tough love, but you know what Bill Burr was talking about, like, harden the fuck up. Just harden the fuck up and … I know people need sympathy every now and again, but the last thing I ever wanna be perceive a, perceived as is a victim of … depression. Like, it's, there are things you can do …

Paul: Yes. And—

Kjell: I mean, obviously, some people are much further gone. Like, the lead singer of my favorite band, Frightened Rabbit, killed himself, um, and I think that's a guy that was plagued with depression on a level that a lot of people just can't deal with. He was always at it, it was gonna happen. But other people, like me, I think the more I do, the more productive I am, like what Patton Oswalt said was volunteer, get outside of yourself and you're helping someone else. It's gonna have a huge effect on …

Paul: It does.

Kjell: Right.

Paul: It does.

Kjell: So that's what I struggle with, because I can easily slip. I can still sleep. Today, I slept (laughs) all day. I slept all day (laughs) today. And, uh, I slept, yeah. So, I would like to be more productive and go out and think that would carry momentum if I went out and maybe volunteered and did something outside of myself than sleep.

Paul: Well … when somebody breaks a leg, do we tell them to harden the fuck up?

Kjell: Yeah … I just saw a documentary with Con-, Conor McGregor, where he just got done with the fight, and he's got a, a ruptured Achilles whatever, and he's training the next morning. So he is toughened the fuck up, even though he's in pain.

Paul: He's an idiot!

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: That's just not smart!

Kjell: I, but I just that cycle …

Paul: He's being hard on, on, on himself. You know, nobody has ever shamed themselves into being the person they want to be. Harden the fu-, hardening the fuck up when you're suffering from mental illness is getting help. That's hardening the fuck up. That's making an outreach phone call, making an appointment to see a doctor, taking your meds. Taking a nap, if you're tired. But forcing yourself to do something that, that you can't … beating yourself up for, for not being able to do something … uh … is, is, is not hardening the fuck up. And I know there, that there are, there's blurry line in there somewhere between, you know, self-pitying and not wanting to get into any kind of solution. But, if you are attempting to get better … that, that is what matters. You know, the person sitting with a broken leg complaining about it, but not going to the hospital, that person needs to harden the fuck up and go to a hospital. And I think mental illness is, is the same way. Go get help, but also be kind to yourself.

Kjell: Right. And that's the balance that I struggle with, because it, you know, when I was younger, I had those suicidal thoughts of, like, how I'd do it, go to hotel off the beaten track and, uh, uh, vodka and pills. So, I'm so far past that, and I know how it would affect my family. And I wouldn't wanna do that because, obviously, things get better. But there's still of me that struggles with—I … I wanna do more than I'm doing, because I think the more that I do, the better I'll feel, as opposed to … especially with winter coming on, the lethargy (pronounced as leh-THAR-gee), like … lethargy, is that a word?

Paul: Lethargy (pronounced as LETH-ur-gee).

Kjell: Lethargy?

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Kjell: Lethargy.

Paul: But we can start calling it lethargy (pronounced as leh-THAR-gee)—

Kjell: Lethargy (laughs).

Paul:—if you'd like.

Kjell: Is lethargy … yeah, it doesn’t sound right. Lethargy (pronounced as leh-THUR-gee). Lethargy. (Audience laughs)

Paul: It's a new thing!

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Spread the word. It's now lethargy (pronounced as leh-THAR-gee).

Kjell: But I do (laughs) … I do feel like … if you get busy, if I get—Personally, for myself, if, the busier I am, the better I'm gonna feel and more momentum I'm gonna carry over. As opposed to being a 45-year-old guy that delivers pizza, and is kind of … not really thriving (laughs).

Paul: But that's not … This sounds cliché as fuck, but that's not who you are. That's what you do.

Kjell: Right. No, I get that.

Paul: And so, but then the, the thing is to feel that.

Kjell: I feel it, Paul.

Paul: Then why you're still beating yourself up?

Kjell: Here's why; I'll tell you why—

Paul: Don't touch my knee. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: It feels very much like Jimmy Pardo, when I say that. It's very Jimmy Pardo.

Kjell: I love Jimmy Pardo. The thing is, looking back, I have these flashes of being old and looking at my life and being like, "You thought you were gonna have a panic attack, so you didn't, uh, pursue comedy. You didn't try to go and do it again. You're gonna have that regret. It's gonna fucking bother you." So I, I'm trying to do what I can to prepare for something—recording my compact disc. My first ever compact disc.

Paul: I HATE that you're calling it a compact disc.

Kjell: What's wrong with compact disc (laughs)?

Paul: Nobody listens to them anymore.

Kjell: An album? An album?

Paul: Yeah. Album … yeah—

Kjell: Digital … MP3?

Paul: Whatever you wanna, ANYTHING but compact disc.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: Anything but compact disc.

Kjell: I'm recording 20 years into comedy. I'm gonna record … cuz I've tried it before and I was always kind of like, I sucked and it wasn’t good. I'm like, "Fuck it. I'm gonna record. I'm recording here."

Paul: December 6t, 7th, and 8th.

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: Or 5th, 6th, and 7th? I forget which ones—

Kjell: 6th, 7th, and, 8th. Thursday, Friday, Saturday—

Paul: Come see him do stand-up. I'm telling you … You don’t wanna … That's one of my favorites (audience applauds)—

Kjell: But … Oh, thanks, you guys. Really, you guys haven’t seen it, but thank you. (Audience laughs)

Paul: You're, no, but you're stand-up is so you. And that’s the thing that annoys me about most comedy, is that people get on stage and then they're different than who they are as a person. And, and you—I mean, unless it's like Steve Martin, where it's clearly a send-up and a character, but, um, could I find an older reference? (Audience laughs)

Kjell: But that's, he's brilliant.

Paul: Yes. But getting, getting back to the, the thing about who you are and what it is that, that you do, you know, the fact that you are … recording this album—

Kjell: Right, that's the thing. I wanna chal-, I think it's important for people mentally ill, I don’t care whatever you wanna classify me as, manic depressive or I don’t think I'm that far, but there are, obviously ups and downs. But, challenge yourself and you're like, I'm gonna do this. And if I have a fucking shit set and a panic attack on Conan, I'm gonna submit for Conan. It's horrible to anticipate that, because it's a reality. It just might happen, but I'm still gonna try, because that idea of not, of looking back and saying "You didn’t even try to go for Conan and you could've. And now you're just kind of, you can't do really anything." That drives me.

Paul: Yes. And, and I think that's good, as long as we are not sitting there and living in the future in our head, because that is home field advantage for our mental illness and our addictive—

Kjell: (Laughs) That's interesting.

Paul: —addictive thinking. At least for me, and the, the people that I talk to. Because there's, that, that, that is where the creative, uh, darkness loves, cuz it can paint whatever picture it wants, and we believe it. We believe it. And then we, and then it affects our it present day mood. And, but if we're present, we can say, like, right now, we're okay. We're in a comedy club, we're with like-minded people, we're having a, a good time, we're being honest, we're being vulnerable, we're having a human connection. It's all good. But it, tonight I'll go back to my hotel and I'll think about, you know, another podcast that has more listeners and is making more money and I'll get in a, you know, a depressed mood. But none of that has happened yet, you know? It's, it’s so tempting to go there because we think we're gonna solve our problems. And it, and I think it's important to have goals, but to not obsess about that. And it's hard. It's so hard. I feel like I'm talking WAY too much.

Kjell: No, not at all. It, it's, it's, I just, I think about what I have done, and it's like, I'll go home and I'll watch Netflix after delivering pizzas. Over and over again, for the last fucking year and a half. What am I, what am I accomplishing? I' not doing anything. And that is going to perpetuate my depression.

Paul: But what if delivering pizzas for a year is, uh, something that you draw on in your art later? You never know. You never know what experience will be an opportunity (audience applauds) for you to draw on something. See?

Kjell: Well, I don't know, you guys. To be honest, when I first start-, I thought my passion lied in delivering pizzas. I really thought that was my passion. (Audience laughs) And I'd hand off the pizza, and it was really hot and warm. I'd be like, "This customer's happy." But now, I hand that pizza off; if it's lukewarm, I'm almost happy myself, and I'm like, "It's time to leave. It's time to move on." (All laugh)

Paul: I, I wouldn't get to do this podcast if I hasn’t been suicidal. You know. I think, I think of that. I wouldn’t have the friendships today if I hadn’t, uh, had to battle alcoholism and addiction. And while I don’t wish those things on anyone, I wish the muscles that you have to develop by going through things that are difficult, because then you get to use them in other, you know, at the post office or when somebody cuts you off on the road. And so, I dunno. I, I think the most important thing is, is to ask yourself, "Am I a seeker? Am I constantly seeking, uh, new information, new input, to be a healthier, more connected person?" And if you're doing that, that is, in my opinion, the most important thing. Cuz outside of that, we don’t have a lot of control … in the universe. So how do we make friends with it and makes friends with who we are and at any given moment? I dunno, that just, that keeps me, uh, from throwing myself off a bridge.

Kjell: Yeah. I think that is a common thread, too. Is that, that, uh, you can't control—I always kind of … struggle with that, too. Always wanting to try to be in control of things. And kind of been like, if you have a, a shit day, you're like, "I've got a shit del." You know what a del is?

Paul: Uh-uh.

Kjell: It's short for delivery. Cuz I'm a pizza guy. (Audience laughs) So—

Paul: I see a one-man show (audience laughs) called "30 Minutes or Less," and you wrap it up (Kjell laughs), it's, you do a 29-minute set—

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: —and if you do 31, the audience gets their money back. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: Goddamn it! That's funny. I wish—

Paul: Use it!

Kjell: I will use it (laughs). But, yeah, if there is that, those negative thoughts that creep up and that, that OCD, it's like, when I'm driving and I'm annoyed about getting a shitty tip, it's like, it doesn't, it's not in my control. What cares, don’t get lost in that because that affects every other aspect of my life and how I've, my perspective on life, which sounds fucking stupid, but true—

Paul: And you're not there yet! And it's already ruining your mood.

Kjell: Right. It dictates my mood. And I'm like … that's the thing. I'm like, "I gotta stop doing that and letting it dictate my mood. It just doesn't, it doesn't matter."

Paul: And, and, and that, and I hate to bring this subject up, but I think that's where faith or spirituality in something larger than ourself, volunteer work, something where we feel connected. And if there's some type of energy that is loving in the universe, I don’t even know how to put it into words. But, um, that there is a meaning underneath all of this chaos—

Kjell: Why do you hate to bring that up? Yeah, that's a good thing. (Audience applauds)

Paul: Because I don’t wanna sound like I'm proselytizing or, um … because I know some people are not down with that, and I want this podcast to be as inclusive as possible. But I also wanna be honest, and I wanna share my experience in an unfiltered way. And so, that is one of the ways that I "turn things over" and let go of the results. You know, I just try to make my actions principled and then stay out of the results. Easier said than done, but that's what I try … I try to do. And I think that would, um, help … anybody who gets in that place where you're future-tripping and it's doom and gloom, and all of a sudden it's shit on your, your present-day mood.

Kjell: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think you should never should apologize for believing in god lord Jesus our savior. (All laugh) It's not a joke, you guys. I do. I pray every night. And I'm not gonna apologize. I'm sorry, but I won't. (Audience laughs)

Paul: Do you? Do you? Are you a Christian?

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah?

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: You're looking at me like you're pulling my leg.

Kjell: No, I'm not! I know. I have that thing, where people don't, they can't tell (laughs) if I'm being serious or not.

Paul: Well, you know, when you look at the teachings of, uh, Jesus, they're beautiful. And they still apply today. The problem I have is with most of the people who speak for, uh, Jesus.

Kjell: Right, yeah. The, the, uh, there are, yes, some, some nut jobs out there for sure.

Paul: Right, yeah. I think, which is why I sometimes cringe when I … you know, talk about spirituality or, you know, I suggest you do this or I suggest you do that. But, you know, a lot of it is just what our fucking parents taught us. You know? Share your toys, be nice—

Kjell: Right, exactly! That's—

Paul: Be home on time.

Kjell: Thank you. Exactly (laughs). Be respectful—

Paul: Eat well—

Kjell: Be mindful, yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Kjell: Right. That's exactly, that's what I believe, and I think it's easy to get in that … that's what my brother's like. He's like, he doesn't … Tryg, you don't like religion. He doesn’t like religious people (audience laughs). He doesn't. He does—

Kjell's brother: I'm not religious.

Kjell: Yeah. But, so he gets really, he's, he's very … blah! He's tired of people like, just kinda coming at him, saying you need to do this and do that. And I, I agree. I get that. But, I don't think it's, it’s, I think should not be afraid to say I believe in god or I believe in whatever, and, and think that they're gonna be like (laughs) … Cuz you're the least judgmental person ever. So, you should never have to say I'm sorry for bringing up spirituality or being …

Paul: I want everybody to love me. (Audience laughs) I wish I was kidding.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: I wish I was kidding. Yeah, it occurred to me, it occurred to me a couple of months ago, that what I really want is every single person on the globe to love me, but leave me alone until I wanna talk and then drop everything they're doing. (Audience laughs) Is that too much to ask?

Audience member: Not too much to ask.

Paul: I'm a reasonable man … with reasonable needs. So, uh, give me, give me some moments of your, your life, whether they were a long time ago or today, that, uh, kind of paint a picture of who you are. You've, you already shared quite a bit with the, the panic attacks and stuff like that. Is … do you feel like you're able to be intimate in a, in a relationship?

Kjell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I, I, I think what I, I've, uh, the biggest transition I've, I've, that has happened to me is in the last three, four years of living the life of a stand-up comic, for the most part, are narcissistic, immature people who are selfish and kind of … It's just that, that's the way most of them are. And sleeping in and being irresponsible, not working hard … I've kind of shifted that, being that, being like, "All right. So, I'm 45 years old. Now it's time to, uh, work hard, get up early, uh, exercise," so getting up at 7 AM as opposed to sleeping until noon because I think that perpetuates depression on another level. So getting up early, trying to be productive, um … loving someone in a way where I realized that I might have not done that the same way in past relationships, where … um … *sigh* that's hard to explain, but I … It's pleasant to work hard and to take someone else into account and, and want to love them and think of them before yourself. Cuz I think I've always been a self-preservation kind of mode of, can't let anyone in because, if I do, then they're gonna be gone and split, so it's always kind of that bottom line of, never letting anyone in that, that far, that close. And then, finally, I'm like, "Well, no, you have to." And that's the way it feels go to do that and to trust that person. If that makes and sense.

Paul: Yeah. And do you feel like you're safe with this, uh …

Kjell: Yeah, I do. I'm still struggling with, um … um, anger. Like, I'm still, I still have anger issues, where I think that comes from my childhood and, and, and … just what I dealt with and how to … instead of responding, I react. So I'm still trying to figure out how to respond and not react in, in an angry way.

Paul: I, I have a suggestion. I didn’t learn until 15 years into my, uh, marriage, wi-, which is now no more. But, um, I used to think it was about winning an argument, that that was … It was like … I would be giving up power if I didn't win a disagreement. And … it occurred to me one day that, why would I want the person that I'm gonna have to live with to feel like they’ve been vanquished … and I'm, and I'm the victor? That will kill intimacy. An so, my therapist suggested, "Express things in terms of what you're feeling instead of … saying 'You did this thing wrong. You did this.' Just say, you know, 'When that thing happened last week, I, you know, my feelings were hurt, or I felt minimized, or I felt overwhelmed or'" whatever. And it forces us to begin to examine what it is we're feeling, because a lot of times, we just go from fear to anger to, you know, uh, the … screaming.

Kjell: Right.

Paul: Or, shutting down, which is what I would do. I would just get very, very cold, you know. Just—

Kjell: Yes, I've done that, too. I compartmentalize very much. That's always a big thing. But, it's that anger of … that's what I'm trying to figure out, is … I, I got, I … it's … annoying. It's, it's embarrassing to think of, but I'm in a middle of triple—that's when I deliver three pizzas in one run—

Paul: You don't call, you don't call it a trip?

Kjell: Trip. No, triple.

Paul: Trip del?

Kjell: No, but trip. Yeah, trip del—

Paul: Trip del.

Kjell: Trip del? Yeah, can do that.

Paul: That's a porn name, Trip Del, isn't it? He brings in three pizzas; there's three girls there. Boom, boom, boom! (All laugh) How many people have, how many people have jerked off to a scene of somebody misdeliverying a pizza? That is just (audience laughs), I, don't raised your hands!

Kjell: C'mon, you guys. Raise your hands.

Paul: I don't wanna—

Kjell: Prozac, Wellbutrin.

Paul: I don’t wanna know, I don’t wanna know.

Kjell: Yeah, that's the trick though. It's like, I, I was in … this is a true story, I was in (laughs), and I didn’t realize it until the person explained it me. Cuz when I would get angry, I would, it's, it's like I would black out, and I would just yell and scream, I didn’t even know why … 30 second later, I didn't remember what I said. So that's a, your brain is on, my brain was on overdrive and, obviously, not functioning properly.

Paul: It's probably hitting the trauma part of the, of the brain. Like your central nervous system—

Kjell: Right. It's, it's, it's been described as a PTSD kind of situation, which makes sense to me—

Paul: From your great childhood?

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Kjell: Yeah. But it, I think that's dramatic, but it's similar, kind of, similar effect. You're not dealing with things properly. You're interpreting things on an exaggerated level, and you're reacting in a way that's inappropriate and all that. But I was yelling at (laughs), I was on the phone, and I was yelling about, "I'm in the middle of a fucking triple. Goddamn it. What the fuck?" I'm like, if you're getting stressed out over calzones and triples, you can't, there's something wrong with you, You're mentally ill. You know? I'm like, I should be a 45-year-old man getting freaked out and yelling because I'm in the middle of a triple and I'm on the phone with you and I can't figure something out.

Paul: I think that's pretty human, though, honestly. I, I think no matter what it is that we're doing, sometimes we just get overwhelmed and anything on top of that is just, you know, we, we go to that place. But expressing our feelings sometimes, I think, is a, is a way to go. And I remember the first time I did it, instead of yelling at my wife or disagreeing or, you know, saying you did this or—ex-wife—um, I said, I just kind of stuffed it and it felt like a volcano. Like, like steam was gonna come out of my ears. And I said, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M FEELING RIGHT NOW! (Audience laughs) BUT I'M JUST FUCKING FRUSTRATED AND I'M ANGRY AND I WANNA PUNCH A WALL!" And it let some of it out. And I broke my hand.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: No, I didn't. I didn't punch a wall. But, that was the first time I learned a new tool. For me, it's not like, "Am I a good person? Am I a bad person? Am I lazy? Am I productive?" It's … "Am I … gathering new tools to cope with life?" It's ALL about tools to me, for, for coping with things. And people that punch things and get drunk, that's their coping tool, you know? They're not a bad person necessarily.

Kjell: Right. Right. I just, I want more consistency of not losing my sh-. I think you should never, you never should … be required to yell at someone. You never need to raise your voice at all.

Paul: No.

Kjell: And that's what I'm trying to get to. Cuz it does; it bubbles up, and all of a sudden, I'm yelling and it's … it feels like it's out of my control, but clearly it's not. It's never out of your control not to yell.

Paul: So, if I'm in a crowded theater, I should whisper, "Fire?" Is that what you're saying? (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: I don't know if the … people are gonna like that.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: "Paul, you didn't raise your voice." "Well, Kjell Bjorgen told me that I should never yell. And, uh, he's gonna go tell that to the 29 families." (All laugh) What, what else do you wanna share before we, uh, wrap this up?

Kjell: (Clears throat) What else is there? I did the, um, (laughs), I ended up meeting a guy that I work with who is, uh, a musician. Really talented lyricist and songwriter and plays everything (clears throat) delivering pizzas. He's got a family. He's kind of … we're both kind of washed-up creative people. And—

Paul: Don't say that about yourself. I know you're kidding—

Kjell: I think it's funny. Yeah, I think it's funny to be like, "Who wouldn’t wanna listen to two washed-up musicians and comics that deliver pizzas talk about life?" We started a podcast. So there you go. It's called Deliver Us From People. And, uh, he—

Paul: I love the name.

Kjell: He's, uh … But he's so smart and, um, balanced and very … just so intelligent. So I like the fact that I'm kind of off and have this depression shit. We talk about that, but it’s always interesting stuff to kind of figure out how we … arrived at where we're at in life. But we're still having fun with it and talking about being … the creative process. But he has that bitterness that comics have, too, of trying to … entertain people and get paid doing it, but not have to deal with people.

Paul: Yeah. That, that, that's a little tricky.

Kjell: Yeah. It's weird. It's an odd thing.

Paul: Yeah. How do I … get to Wimbledon, but I don't wanna touch a tennis racket?

Kjell: Right. (All laugh)

Paul: I'm sure there's a way around this. I'm gonna sit an think about the future.

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: It's called Deliver Us From People?

Kjell: Yeah.

Paul: And you, you haven’t released a first episode as of this, as of this recording right now.

Kjell: No, we've just been recording for a year and a half. And we haven’t release anything, because he's such a perfectionist, and I'm like, "Ah, whatever." So now, we're editing this stuff and then, um, gonna release by the time this comes out.

Paul: Yeah. It … you know, what, what I think it that people aren’t looking for perfection. They're just looking for the truth in a package that either entertains them or helps them. You know.

Kjell: Yeah. It's, it's an interesting thing to have a peace, a very calm and methodical, almost like a serial killer kind of way. And I'm a spaz—

Paul: Did you meet him in Gainesville?

Kjell: In Gainesville. Yeah, I did; in Gaines- (laughs).

Paul: He was wearing striped, um, pajamas …

Kjell: (Laughs)

Paul: … by the side of a highway. (Audience laughs)

Kjell: (Coughs) It's just, it's fun because I can get worked up and, and be a spaz and he'll never lose his, his very, just, calm. And so, it's an interesting, weird dynamic.

Paul: Yeah. I look forward to, to hearing it. And, uh, think you so much for coming in and sharing about your, uh, your life. And, uh, I just enjoy your company, man. I just enjoy—

Kjell: Yeah, I really appreciate being here. Was a, was a night … it was really refreshing when you preached (unintelligible). I'm like, this is fucking great.

Paul: Yeah. Kjell Bjorgen, everybody. (Audience applauds)

Kjell: Thanks, guys! (Pause) Paul.

End of Interview

[01:15:55] Love that guy. And, uh, many thanks to Kjell and Sam Harriman. All the folks at Sisyphus Brewing, um, Brewering? (Laughs). Sisyphus Brewing. Looking forward to coming back there in, uh, spring to record a couple more shows. I wanna tell you about our sponsor for today: PolicyGenius. Life insurance is a deeply unfun topic, you know? But, having life insurance is a good thing, especially if you got little ones or a spouse and you're the, the sole provider. And, um, actually I, I don't have a spouse and I don’t have kids, but I have life insurance. And, PolicyGenius is a really easy way to shop and compare. Their web site is so intuitive. You can apply online and the unbiased, uh, advisors of Poli-, PolicyGenius, uh, will handle all the red tape. So, you know, whether you're looking for disability insurance to protect your income, homeowner's insurance or auto, uh, they can help you, uh, figure out what is the best policy for you. And they are not incentivized to sell you more insurance than you need. They don't provide the insurance; they just help you evaluate different policies being offered by different companies. And they're, they're—I went on there because with my (chuckles), my new, uh, high blood pressure, I'm convinced my heart is gonna explode, uh, sometimes in the next couple of months, and I will spend the rest of my life sipping Jell-O through a straw. And, I just looked at all the different policies they had and it was so straight-forward. I, I think it's a, it's a great product and you guys should, uh, should check it out if that's what you're looking for. So, if you’ve been intimidated or frustrated by insurance in the past, give PolicyGenius a try. Just go to policygenius.com to get your quotes and apply in minutes, and you can do the whole thing on your phone right now. PolicyGenius: the easy was to compare and buy life insurance.

[01:18:15] We have some great surveys for you guys. Some great awfulsome moments, happy moments, and a really nice, um, variety of shame and secret surveys. Had to lay off the shame and secret surveys for couple of weeks. Sometimes it gets a little heavy, and I gotta, uh, I gotta step away from the printer (laughs). Am I the only person that prints anymore? I'm so afraid of becoming that guy that is, you know, "Ah, yeah. Well, go ahead and leave a voice message on my machine!" Ugh, I always shiver when I find myself doing that. This is an awfulsome moment (laughs) filled out by a woman who calls herself "Blocking Someone After Drunk Dialing Them is Setting a Healthy Boundary, Right?" (Laughs) And, she has two. The first one: "I got anxious that I could be a bipolar addict. Convinced I was in mania and spiraled into dissociating, AKA being super stoic. And then, manically, wanting to make stir fry at 10 PM and setting off the alarm in my parents' house. I was so nervous my dad was mad at me, I started waving around my robe, and I only had my period panties and a shirt on." By the way, that should be a band name, Period Panties. "I think he was so horrified, I might as well be having a manic episode. I was so horrified, I ate my comfort soup and ended up falling asleep, only to wake up at 3 AM, freak out that I'm not getting paid because at dinner I was asked about how freelancing is going—just between us, not well—and I decided I needed to be a cam girl. I signed up for three sites, made 40 dollars, actually came on camera, and literally woke up. I deleted everything but the one site I made the 40 dollars on. The sad thing is, I kind of need it, so I added it to my list of my reminder subscriptions I need to cancel. Should have probably just made a full dinner." (Laughs) I didn’t even completely understand some of that, but it made me laugh. And the second one: "I texted a friend to admit that I have been emotionally neglected by my parents and I'm probably acting out because my ex was really similar. This would be fine, if it wasn’t four paragraphs after an apology text about being too much, which ended with me asking for help with boundaries." (Laughs) I very much relate to your intensity. Thank you for sharing that. It made me chuckle.

[01:21:08] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Clueless." She is straight, in her 40s, raised in a totally chaotic environment, uh, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "I have had a lot of encounters of date rape. My dad never allowed me to think for myself or have an opinion, so I got messed with a lot. Now, I can make them run before they even get close, and I'm okay with that right now. But, I have a lot less friends now, which means my dad was right: all guys wanna do is screw you. This was a devastatingly sad realization. I struggle with hatred for my dad, though, and the hate is messing up my life now." I am not invalidating your experience that the guys you are meeting, uh, only want to screw you. But, I can assure you there are men out there who want to get to know, uh, a woman and not just screw her. I hope that makes sense. So, I guess what I'm saying is don’t give up, um, on finding a person, if that's you, if that's what you want. She's been physically and emotionally abused. "My earthly sperm donor and his wife—"I'm not really sure what that phrase means, my earthly sperm donor—"and his wife were too busy with themselves and still are to this day." I guess that must mean her dad. "I still can't itemize this yet, but I will someday cuz I have lots to share. And it will help others. I was sexually abused by my high school psychology teacher. And it really did a number on me for the long term, I'm afraid." Any positive experiences with these people? "No. I was too young in the mind to have any real understanding. Unfortunately, I was way too sweet and pretty for my own good. It was a curse, not a blessing. I have hatred in my heart for my dad over this as well." Darkest thoughts: "Just this hatred for my dad. It sucks, how much it can change your life." Darkest secrets: "I had a couple sexual indiscretions, like threesomes and whatnot. But, believe it or not, if and when you find your higher power, you can be healed of that. The hate I have now is for …" Oh, why is that up? Sorry, I just got an … something on my, uh, computer popped up. "… can be healed of that. The hate I have now is for recent things and how it's affected my life. Or better said, the life I should have had. How my dad's influence destroyed people, I lived through me. I exacted my dad's judgment onto others, not even my own judgments. They say neglect is far worse than physical abuse, as far as reaching problems throughout life. Yeah, I agree, too. If my dad could just be strong and accept his part in my wasted life, I would have zero issues. It would wipe the slate totally clean." Again, I am not trying to deny your experience or your feelings or your thoughts … But I would like to say that as somebody who has been on this earth a little longer that you and had some more lived experience … there, there's often a finality that we feel like, like we have arrived at a decision about how things are never going to be different and that this is final answer on things. And that's not always the case. I thought I understood the totality of things that had happened to me and where I was going and what was gonna fix it or not fix it and whether or not I was broken. And things changed as I continued getting help and letting people help me. My opinions and thoughts on things changed, especially as I began to, to process them. And … there's kind of an absoluteness in your statement of the things that … are fucking with you right now. And I would just ask you to open your mind as to the possibilities of, of change. Of you feeling differently about things. And I'm not saying that that will be the case. But it's, it's possible. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I don't have fantasies. I think it's related to the Asperger's." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? "Pat, you're an asshole. And guess what? You are no different and not any more special than anyone else, so please get over your toddler self." What, if anything, do you wish for? "A stable and loving person and environment to go back to. The longer I reside the way I do, the less chance there is for a total recovery. My sperm donor could change that, but he's too busy traveling and giving money to his church. He call abandonment tough love. What an idiot. I don’t think he knows the same god that cares for me, cuz that shit ain't right." Have you shared these things with others? "Oh, yeah. But it's barely worth it anymore. In Proverbs, it warns not to give in to vent, cuz it can take you over. I listen to all these therapists say I need to fully feel it. I'm an RN and a patient, and I disagree. I, myself, wish, I would have chosen not to 'give in to vent.' Some things are better not examined, especially if you can remove them from your life. Take a self-honesty meditation-type class, and it would be a way healthier way to deal with it. Meds just keep this shit suppressed, but aggravated. Removing any and all ties and items that have any connection at all to the person—good or bad, and I mean everything—is the best way I've found. But they say most do not ever get over this stuff, and I'm in a small percentage, so I hope my ideas will help someone out there from going down the wrong path like me. It only lengthens the healing process, further pulling your spirit down." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Better, but I'm leaving all the interesting, mind-blowing details out, so it's probably not so bad hearing what I'm saying." What, if … Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Consider your personal values about faith and spirituality first, and know that it does say in Proverbs not to give in to vent. I mean, there's hardly a person that's read Proverbs that can't agree there's some read wisdom there. Listen to it, because once you give way to the pounding waterfall of hatred, it's not that easy to put the lid back on. It's always right there, like a demon on your back." Any comments to make the podcast better? "No, Paul. You're awesome, and I love you??" I don’t know what that means, but I'm gonna take that as a compliment. And I was really moved by your survey, and I related to it a lot because that feeling of anger towards someone, especially a parent, is, is something that I have battled with in my life. And the only way that I made peace with it was to give into the feelings. And the reasons I wanted to read your survey is because I think the, the, the verb vent can have a couple of different meanings. And, I think there's a difference between venting your hatred for someone AT that person to cause them hurt, or to try to browbeat them into changing. I would agree that that is pointless. But, processing that hatred with some who's safe, that we can … let that poison out around, that, to me, is essential. That is the only way that I let go of that. AND, in addition to that, what you also mentioned about cutting that person out or at the very least distancing ourselves from them. So … I, I just thought that … I thought that what you were, what you're, were saying, I just wanted to expand on it and put a little bit of nuance on there, because … I think one of the drawbacks, one of the many drawbacks with a lot of organized religion is that there's no nuance to it, and it's very black and white. And human beings and feelings are fucking complicated. And … and oftentimes, you know, that scripture is being interpreted by somebody who's sick … and wants to interpret in a way that lets themselves off the, off the hook … which it sounds like your father is possibly doing. So, that's my two cents.

[01:31:14] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a trans man who calls himself "Spicy Pickles." I love it. I danced briefly under the name Spicy Pickles. My nickname was Hot Sauce (laughs). He is gay, in his 20s, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment, never been sexually abused, um, but been emotionally abused. And he writes, "The usual: alcoholic, narcissistic father; bipolar, alcoholic stepfather; lots of verbal abuse; and gaslighting. Mom and I are finally out of those woods. Thank the gods, but the sound of raised voices still makes us panic. More recently, in high school, two of my best friends separately would gaslight me, make me feel guilty for being introverted and wanting space, call me stupid, blamed me for their depression and suicide attempts. Luckily, both of them are also out of my life as of three years ago." Good for you. That is some good self-care. Any positive experiences? "My father. My love of film and art. My stepfather. He was funny and goofy when he wasn’t drinking. The problem was that he always drank. Friend Number 1: he was funny, shared my interests, was brave when I couldn’t be. I miss who he used to be." Boy, that's a really important thing to talk about, is the fact the people can sometimes change for the worse, and the insanity of sticking around when that person becomes toxic … expecting them to change or trying to change them. "Friend Number 2 spoke her mind, which I admired, and she could hold long conversations with me that none of my other friends understood. I miss who she used to be." Darkest thoughts: "I'm ashamed of this, because I know statistically and logically it's probably untrue, but I feel like I'm always going to be alone. When I was young, I resigned myself to never loving, never marrying, because the only marriages I had ever seen ended up in misery. Love wasn’t real, like it is in the movies." (Paul re-reads) "Love wasn’t real, like it, like at the movies." I assume that meant, uh, like it is in the movies. "It was unrealistic. Even now that I 'm on hormones and now that I've had top surgery, I still feel negative about love. I'm in my 20s and I've never had a significant other. I've never been on a date. I've never kissed anyone. I've never even flirted before. I'm too scared and it's frustrating and strange because I'm a very sexual person and I crave affection and a partner. But I'm scared that I'll never find anyone who's perfect for me. I'm scared I'm too broken or stupid or annoying. I'm scared that I'll never feel loved, that no gay man will ever love me because I'm trans. I'm so afraid talking and interacting, that I stumbled over my words. My anxiety makes me panic when I have to order pizza, for fuck's sake. I am so scared that just thinking about talking to a cute boy makes my stomach drop. It causes panic. I wanna run, I wanna hide. I feel like throwing up, just typing this. It’s so bad, that even when my friends sets me up with a date who's eager to meet me and talk to me that I cancel, I panic. And my reason is because I'm afraid of getting my hopes up, getting attached. Because once you get attached, then you're stuck. WHEN (note the when, not if) we break up, it will destroy me. I can't risk that pain. So instead of trying, I've already made up my mind that the pain of loneliness must be better, surely, than the pain of being rejected or abandoned. It makes me sick that I think these thoughts. I know that there's someone for everyone out there, but I just can't do it. I can't." Thank you so much for, for sharing this really, really important and complicated and universal stuff. And then, add in the fact that you're trans and all of the societal stuff that, that is brought in on top of that. But, my two thoughts are … it's okay that you're at where you're at right now, and don't shame yourself for being there. And you're feelings of loneliness are fucking real and you're feelings of being terrified of putting yourself out there and being rejected are fucking real and valid. The thing that I think would really help would be to begin building intimacy in a non-romantic relationship and let that be the template. That is what helped me find intimacy romantically, was the intimacy in my support groups. Letting them get to know me, allowing them to love me unconditionally, occasionally having to have difficult conversations with them. That, that was, you know, those were the training wheels that … I'm benefitting from today. And … I mean, for Christ sake, I relate to your feeling, you know, about not wanting to feel pain. I want a dog, but I'm afraid to adopt a dog because I don’t wanna feel the pain of losing a dog again. So, um … I say that cuz I wanna make this show as much as possible about me in a way that borders on annoying (laughs). I never know where the line is between sharing my experience and making it all about me. Oh, boy, when you get in your head sometimes, it's just so … it's such a mind fuck. But, um, go easy on yourself. You know, you, your template for intimacy … was awful growing up. Who wouldn't be terrified? And who knows? Maybe there's also a, uh, an anxiety component there that medication would help. Who knows? But I think starting with therapy and some support groups would be a really good place. I know there's some, some great ones for children of, uh, alcoholics out there. So you might, you might look into that. It's just, it's no fun battling this shit by ourselves. You know, life is too short to try to go through all of this on our own, and live our little, tiny, small lives behind our walls, keeping everybody out, when in reality it’s really, you know … getting better at knowing who to let in … through the, through the drawbi-, bridge, over the moat, without pouring boiling oil on … urgh! What, I didn't take my, uh, my Adderall the last two days cuz, and I've been sleeping great, but my brain is moving a little bit slow. Darkest secrets: "I'm a very sexual person and I crave love, despite the fact that I can't physically or mentally bring myself to pursue romantic partners, so I substitute human love by buying sex toys, cuddlable pillows and listening to those audio porn ASMR things, where a voice tells you you …" uh, "tells you how beautiful you are. It's cold, unfeeling, and one-sided but it will have to do. I am so pathetic." You are not pathetic. I once hired a cuddler to come over. It's like six months ago. And yeah, I felt pathetic, but I was fucking lonely, and I craved human touch. It was a little awkward, but it also, I felt better after they left. And I'm embarrassed saying it now out loud, but, um … there it is. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I just want affection. I want praise. I want somebody to just be okay with my body. The bar is so low for me. I mostly just like to imagine someone telling me how beautiful I am, that's I'm being a good boy." That is so beautiful and so touching. You should like such a sweet, sensitive soul, and … Not only are you denying yourself love by holding yourself captive behind these protective walls, but you're also denying …. what is beautiful about you being shared with somebody else. There are people out there … who feel like you do. And … you, you, you just sound like you have such, so much … gentle love to share with somebody else. And that's such an important, important part of intimacy. And then he continues: "I'm sure Freud would have a heyday with me. Say something about how my trans-ness and gayness stem from not having a good father figure in my life or some shit like that." Yeah, well fuck Freud, and his pipe, and his beard, and his padded chair, and his couch. Have you shared these things with others? "My friends, both pretty, social cis-girls, assure me that I just 'need to get out there,' that the 'right man will come along some day.' I don’t tell them about my worries anymore. My therapist is trying to help me find where my anxiety and romance comes from, but I get so nervous that never even want to talk about it." That's totally understandable. Try to push through that fear, if you can. Because I think that's gonna be the beginning for you, is to build that trust with your therapist. How do you feel after writing these things down? "Pretty pathetic, actually." I don’t think a single person who heard your survey read thinks you are pathetic. I think they're thinking to themselves, like I am, "What a beautiful soul that person has, and they are a fucking survivor and they have been wounded and if they can find a way to heal … they can have an awesome life, whether they're with somebody or not." That's a really hard place to get to, is where you are okay being alone, because looking for somebody to fix us is another dead end street to go down. You know, I, I like to think of it that … having a partner isn't the cake; it's the, it's the icing on the cake. But we gotta, we gotta be the cake. We gotta be our own cake (laughs). Sometimes I don’t know if these sayings I come up with are great or eye-rolling. Maybe they're both. Some to one person, another thing to another person.

[01:43:20] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself "Sonic Cat." Think he's been a listener of the show for a while, because I've read, uh, some of his surveys before. He's straights, uh, in his 30s, raised in a stable and safe environment, never been sexually abused, not sure if he's been emotionally or physically abused. Darkest thoughts: "I often think about what it would be like to be in a romantic relationship with another man. What would it be like to be held, cuddled? The strange thing is, the sexual aspects do not entice me. Just feeling protected in someone biggers, bigger than me's arms." Darkest secrets: "I have a history with disordered eating that I keep completely hidden from my fiancé. Everything from binging to purging to restricting. I don’t actively engage in these anymore, but I have carried over some unhealthy habits, such as eating in private and sneaking food. I sometimes thing about binging and purging, but luckily when I get the opportunity, I stop myself." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I'm pretty tame when it comes to sex and get nervous about telling my partner what I want, but would really like for her to dominate me and boss me around and make me do to her what she wants. It would be hot if would occasionally switch these roles." That would be great, if you could share that with your partner. I don't know if it feels safe to share these things with her. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would like to tell my fiancé about the disordered eating from my past, but I feel like at this point she would be angry I didn’t tell her sooner." You know, that, that does not sound healthy, that a partner would do, would do that, react that way. I can understand that their feelings might be hurt, but if they held it against you that you didn’t share something with them as personal and as private and as painful as that, um, I, I … I think THAT is more important than the revelation of the disordered eating. Your, your, if your partner would, were to react to it that way. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish I could find ways to connect to others around me. I'm a good person and I feel I have so much to offer, but I am dealing with the consequences that come from battling and overcoming social anxiety and generalized anxiety through all of my 20s, a third of my life." Have you shared these things with others? "My loneliness is the thing I am most ashamed of. I play if off like I don’t crave social activities, but it's just a façade." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I feel less scattered and like there is hope for me." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Keep trucking. Look for those little wins and use those as fuel for your bigger wins. We spend so much time backsliding that when we allow ourselves to see the power of positive forward momentum, it's an amazing feeling." So true. So true. Thank you so much for that. That, that really have some great, some great stuff in there. And I, I think it would be great for you and your partner to get into, uh, maybe some, some joint counseling and even bring your survey and, and read it, or play this portion of the, the show. Because it sounds like … it doesn’t feel safe to you to be your authentic self around your partner, and that's troublesome. Because real, true intimacy, I think, is unattainable if we feel like we can't be our authentic selves around our partner, or our friends.

[01:47:23] This is a happy moment—very bittersweet—uh, filled out by "Rose." And she writes, "When I was in primary, I was sexually abused by a male teacher. I lived with my father, who's very alcoholic, and I once tried to tell him, but just got told to bugger off because he didn’t care." Jesus! "Fast-forward seven-ish years to the present, and I've still never told anyone until this year. It really started taking its toll on my schooling, and my schooling goes quite downhill. I have great teachers that check up on me a lot, and one day, one of them pulled me aside because I was even more restless than usual, and I just completely broke down and told her everything. I ended up talking to her for over three hours. It felt so good to tell someone. Like I'd been holding my 