Here's what we conceived in terms of the DDoS. The government and people who write about tech tend to call it a "DDoS attack" but in certain circumstances it's not a DDoS attack, but a DDoS protest. So the law should be narrowly drawn and what needs to be excised from that are the legitimate protests. It's really easy to tell legitimate protests, I think, and we should be broadly defining legitimate protests. The example you gave of the rival law firms, that's not protest activities or traditional free speech activities.



The argument has been made that the problem with some of the sentences for Anonymous/LulzSec members is that a lot of them are really just foot soldiers, naive, young, vulnerable kids, who perhaps get into something over their heads. And they're not skilled hackers who are trying to bring down the U.S. government and they don't deserve long jail terms . Would you agree with that?



Absolutely, that's probably one of the most often-repeated and truest things about a lot of these Anonymous members is that they're not these ill-intentioned, misanthropes that really need to have the weight of the law come down on them. I agree with that 100 percent.



Who should the weight of the law come down on then? Should the weight of the law come down on the ringleaders who are behind these people?



Sabu's cooperation [aside], he would be a good example of someone who's cruising for one of these eye-popping over-the-top sentences. He was a bit older, he had been involved in the hacking world for 10 or 15 years; he had a lot of prior Internet misdeeds. He was very skilled, or at least reasonably skilled, he had special skills. He was involved in other criminal activity, he was selling pounds of marijuana, which they didn't charge him with. They dismissed those charges as part of his cooperation.



He was using his skills to commit credit-card fraud, without ideology, without politics behind it, without anything. He was literally stealing from people -- this was not a big, nameless, faceless corporation...There was no ideology behind him stealing credit-card numbers from Mr. and Mrs. Smith.... He was recruiting people actively into LulzSec. One of the allegations in the case I'm handling [Raynaldo Rivera] is that Sabu recruited my client based upon my client's skill, through another member of LulzSec, an intermediary.



Sabu was unquestionably the leader of LulzSec. When you read through the reports, as I have, it's very clear that Sabu was giving orders, pressuring people to "get their hands dirty." ... It was Sony Pictures and the databases were organized via movie sweepstakes -- names and password that were ultimately dumped on the Internet -- and Sabu made individual people go in there and do individual databases so everyone had their hands dirty so that he could exert more control and get them to do more. He had importuned them to criminality.



... He's looking at 124 years so that's obviously beyond ludicrous. But if Sabu were to get a decade or something, that [could be] a sentence for someone like him with a really malignant heart. But for someone like Rivera and the typical member of Anonymous, no, those sentences simply don't fit and for the most part I don't believe they should be going to jail. A lot of these kids -- and most of them are kids -- don't understand the criminal consequences here and could be rehabilitated; scared straight without a jail sentence. There are other things that we could do to them to make them understand that this is in fact illegal and not the way to express yourselves politically.



If we are not talking about harsh prison sentences, how should society respond to rehabilitate those hackers?



I really think this is a situation where a lot of these people are really scared of the consequences once they understand them. Usually someone like that, a criminal conviction in and of itself is a terrible black mark on someone's record now. It becomes difficult to get a job. If you're a person with computer skills, it becomes difficult to get computer clearances to be able to work your way up in a lot of these areas. So simply the conviction alone gets the message across, a probationary period where they're being monitored or checked in on, some community-type service, working with the community in a productive manner. All sorts of creative punishments like those that are available and at the government's disposal.



Do you think denying them access to the Internet is useful?



In some cases it might be useful and appropriate. You really have to look at the offense and the offender. If someone's really unhealthy in their Internet use, it may not be a bad thing to look at them and say, a year, 18 months, two years, let's see how you do without Internet in your life except work and school. That may well be a very good and healthy thing for some people, but you have to look at the offense and the offender before saying we should just yank this person's Internet privileges.



You don't think there's a purpose to passing harsh prison sentences in that it sends a message and acts as a deterrent to any potential offenders?



I don't necessarily think that message gets received by this population which are exclusively naive, not legally savvy, fairly young first-time offenders. That's not a population who can really understand in a practical sense that if you do this, you're going to get a harsh prison sentence. In some of their minds, it almost may be worse, to take away Internet use or modify their behavior in some ways as it so violently changes how their life ordinarily progresses.



Are there any Anons you wouldn't represent?



It depends. I've been asked that question before and I struggle with it and here's why. I don't have to like or agree with the people that I represent to represent them. I have represented neo-Nazis and I'm Jewish. I've been assigned them when I was a public defender and it never really occurred to me until someone asked me, how do you feel about representing this skinhead and I said, you know, I didn't think about it.