michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Last week, CNN broke the story that the U.S. had secretly exfiltrated a top spy from Russia back in 2017. What that means now for U.S. intelligence. It’s Monday, September 16. So, Julian, tell me about this story that you had been reporting out.

julian barnes

A few months ago, my colleague Adam Goldman and I started doing some reporting about a key C.I.A. asset who had been offered exfiltration from Russia by the C.I.A., and we knew that this source was the main person who told the C.I.A., who told the entire intelligence community, that Vladimir Putin interfered in the election and favored Donald Trump. So this person was really important, and what happened to this person was a little bit of a mystery.

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michael barbaro

Julian Barnes covers national security for The Times.

julian barnes

Any time you’re trying to report about sensitive intelligence, it’s extremely slow going. I had one conversation with a person who, as I was asking the question, he said, stop, I do not want to hear that question. I do not want you to ask me that question. So it’s very painstaking work. But last week, as I was doing reporting, I learned that a cable network was onto one of the stories I was working on. But it was Friday, and I was nervous, but I let that go.

michael barbaro

[LAUGHS] Crossed your fingers and went home for the day.

julian barnes

Cross your fingers, go home. And Monday morning, I got a call that CNN was going to report the story.

archived recording (jim sciutto) Good morning. I’m Jim Sciutto in New York. *ARCHIVED RECORDING (POPPY HARLOW)^: And I’m Poppy Harlow. We’re so glad you’re with us this Monday morning, and we do begin with a really significant CNN exclusive.

julian barnes

And I was like, uh-oh. *ARCHIVED RECORDING (POPPY HARLOW)^: And Jim, this is your reporting. You have learned about a highly secretive intelligence operation by the United States.

archived recording (jim sciutto) That’s right, Poppy. Multiple Trump administration officials with direct knowledge tell me that in a previously undisclosed secret mission in 2017, the U.S. successfully extracted from Russia one of its highest-level covert sources inside the Russian government.

michael barbaro

And then what happens?

julian barnes

So it was not long after CNN broke the news that Russia apparently released the spy’s name.

archived recording We have not confirmed the name of the spy, nor will we repeat the name the Russians revealed.

julian barnes

At first, when this happens, you think, oh, it’s Russian disinformation. But then you start a quick Google search, and looks like this guy was a diplomat, looks like this guy was a diplomat in the United States at some point, and lo and behold, there’s a deed for a house in the Virginia suburbs.

michael barbaro

So you just Googled the name of this spy, and oddly enough, an address pops up for what appears to be a senior Russian official working with the U.S. What do you actually do with that information?

julian barnes

So it’s sort of shocking to find that. It’s just profoundly weird. This is not how it’s supposed to work. Russia’s not supposed to release the name of the spy. You’re not supposed to Google the spy in your backyard.

michael barbaro

Right.

julian barnes

But what you do with that information is you drive out and pay a visit. And so the next morning, the family car was in use, so I rented a Car2Go, which is this very small smart car, which you’re not supposed to take on the highway. But I discovered you can achieve speeds of 65 miles an hour with a very, very small smart car.

michael barbaro

You’re in a classic spy thriller car, right?

julian barnes

[LAUGHS] You know, it’s not like you’re sneaking up when you drive in basically a clown car to somebody’s house.

michael barbaro

[LAUGHS]

julian barnes

But I needn’t thought, as I was weaving through the curvy roads of Virginia subdivisions, that I was going to surprise anyone, because when I arrived at the house, there was a half dozen other reporters there.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

julian barnes

So I parked my car, said hello to my rival at The Washington Post, and then I walked up the driveway.

julian barnes I’m walking down to the cul-de-sac, where you can see the house has a big porch, three stories, very large house.

julian barnes

I just remember being surprised. These are huge houses. It’s pretty good to be a spy, I guess.

julian barnes The lawn has been freshly mowed, and the little cuttings are still on the driveway here.

julian barnes

So I walked up to the house.

julian barnes A lot of windows right here on the porch. You know, someone has been in here and has drawn the shutters. I walked up earlier, and you could see inside, and now you can’t. They’ve drawn the drapes. Children’s toys visible in the backyard. Wading pool. There’s the card from another reporter left in the door. I’m going to ring the bell.

julian barnes

And then, without thinking, I put my hand on the doorknob, and then I just instantly thought, oh man, Russia is known for going after spies by coating doorknobs with nerve agents.

michael barbaro

Right. And you just touched the doorknob.

julian barnes

And I just touched the doorknob.

michael barbaro

But of course, you’re fine.

julian barnes

I’m fine. Momentary scare.

julian barnes The garbage bin is left out front. The neighbors had said that there was a dog left behind, and the sheriff was supposed to come look.

julian barnes

But nobody was home. But I wanted to figure out what happened, so I walked down the driveway, crossed the cul-de-sac, and tried to meet some of the neighbors.

julian barnes Hi, I’m with The New York Times. I’m Julian Barnes. I’m doing some reporting about the neighbor. speaker O.K. julian barnes I don’t know if you saw the press reports or whatnot, but there was — reports broke out in my paper and CNN yesterday about the informant who told about Russian meddling, and Russian media, Russian government, is reporting it is your next-door neighbor. speaker O.K.

michael barbaro

And what did they know?

julian barnes

Well, when you’re reporting about somebody and talking to the neighbors, the classic journalistic joke was, they were very quiet.

speaker I remember them being new neighbors. We hadn’t even met them. Been meaning to get over, didn’t get over.

julian barnes

And of course, stereotypically, we heard they were very quiet. But one of the neighbors described —

speaker July 4, we’re shooting off fireworks, and I’m like, oh crap, there’s the neighbor, the wife and the kid sitting on the front porch. So I said, let me go over and invite them.

julian barnes

Inviting them over for the Fourth of July fireworks.

speaker So I went over to invite them, and she said she didn’t speak English. So her husband came out and said that they would just watch from the steps.

julian barnes

The interactions were a little bit few and far between.

speaker That was the only interaction with them other than just waving when we passed on the street and if he was walking the dog, or I’d wave when I’d see him home in the yard. And I did stop when his wife was walking the dog, and I stopped and just said, hi, how you doing? And I don’t think she understood me because she said, fine, fine, fine. I said, how do you like the house and the neighborhood? And she’s like, fine, fine, fine. So I’m like, I don’t think you understand me or not. But that was the only time I’d ever talked to either one of them.

julian barnes

But the details they did provide really seem to confirm that this was our guy, that this was the spot.

speaker It was a Russian couple, and I remember two kids, a toddler boy that may have been 3, I don’t know.

julian barnes

The family moved in June of 2018. They were vague about where they came from, just saying they had moved from Northern Virginia.

speaker But I know there was at least one little kid, and then the other kid was — I don’t know if he was junior high or high school.

julian barnes

The husband was friendly, but spoke in what everyone knew was a heavy Russian accent.

julian barnes He was a diplomat for many years, so I presume his English was pretty good. Was that right? speaker Yeah, I mean, he definitely had an accent, but I could understand him real good.

julian barnes

And one of the neighbors told me that they had been whisked away the night before. A van came up, loaded them up, and took them to a location unknown.

michael barbaro

Did these neighbors that you were talking to seem shocked by this seeming spy in their midst?

julian barnes

You know, oddly, they didn’t.

speaker It’s a little bit spy novel-ish, but it’s how the world works. So, I mean, we do it to them, they do it to us.

julian barnes

One person was like, we live near Washington, there are a lot of spies around here.

speaker It’s government, you know? It’s every government.

julian barnes

And they seem to very quickly process that this neighbor, who they didn’t know very well, that he had been a spy, and one of the neighbors was pretty outspoken and turned out to be pretty proud of his neighbor and said —

speaker My only concern is, if the guy is on our side, I don’t know that y’all are doing him any favors.

julian barnes

This guy was doing important work for America, and he had really risked his own life to do good for our country.

michael barbaro

Hmm. So we didn’t know our neighbor was a spy, but now that we know he was a spy for us, for the good guys, rah, rah.

julian barnes

Exactly, which is a pretty quick mental somersault to do, I think. But yeah, that’s what happened. They quickly thought, all right, he’s on our side, let’s rally around the flag for him.

michael barbaro

Hmm. So then what happens?

julian barnes

After a few hours, the postman drives up, and he is immediately mobbed by six reporters. And then I just look at that scene, and I think, the postman doesn’t know anything.

michael barbaro

[LAUGHS]

julian barnes

This is over. So I got back into my car, and I headed back to The New York Times Washington bureau to keep reporting.

michael barbaro

And presumably drop off your Car2Go at its Car2Go place?

julian barnes

You can just leave them anywhere in the District of Columbia.

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michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. All right, Julian, how did we get here? What’s the story?

julian barnes

So decades ago, the C.I.A. approached a low-level or mid-level Russian diplomat with an offer to spy for the United States. Now, we don’t know exactly when or where that occurred, but we do know that it was outside Russia, because it’s very difficult to approach, to cultivate, a potential source inside Russia. Inside Russia, American spies are followed everywhere. So this approach occurred overseas. And with this informant, the C.I.A. really struck gold.

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julian barnes

The informant rose to be an aide to a key diplomatic figure. The informant’s patron was the chief diplomatic adviser to Putin.

michael barbaro

Wow.

julian barnes

And for the C.I.A., this is the critical thing. It’s very hard to understand Vladimir Putin’s thinking or his strategy. Vladimir Putin is a former spy himself.

michael barbaro

Right.

julian barnes

He is very careful. He does not communicate over cellphones, over landlines. He does not write a lot of stuff down. He just knows those kinds of things are what get intercepted, recorded, photographed. And so when we’re talking about Vladimir Putin, human intelligence — spies, informants — are really, really critical. By the time we get to the Obama administration, the reports coming from the informant are handled with the utmost sensitivity. There are reports for the president’s eyes only put into sealed envelopes, delivered to the Oval Office, and required to be returned to the C.I.A., extraordinary levels of secrecy and protection that show how important this spy’s information was. And by nurturing this informant over decades, watching him get ever better access, they developed what some people say is the C.I.A.‘s most important source in 2016.

archived recording The New York Times reports on the growing F.B.I. investigation into the Democratic National Committee email hack. The agency reportedly is also trying to determine if aides and groups close to Hillary Clinton were targeted as well. Secretary of State John Kerry this morning raised the issue with Russia’s foreign minister. The Russians scoffed at reports Moscow was behind the hack.

julian barnes

So this is where we are when the most difficult challenge to the American intelligence agencies in a generation develops, where a adversarial power begins to interfere in an American election.

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michael barbaro

What specifically do we know about the intelligence that this spy is able to get the U.S. in 2016?

julian barnes

There are two pieces of intelligence that we know about that were really important, one of which is that —

archived recording Tonight, the Central Intelligence Agency is confident that a Russian hacking plot tried to influence the U.S. presidential election in favor of Donald Trump.

julian barnes

— Putin affirmatively wanted Donald Trump to be president. There was something about Trump that Putin liked, and this ultimately became a key finding of the C.I.A. They had multiple sources for it, but this was the first source. This was the most important source, we believe, for that finding. The other thing is that the source confirmed that the D.N.C. hack, the Russian cyber penetration of the Democratic National Committee, had been ordered and approved by Vladimir Putin, that it was part of Putin’s larger strategy, and to have this informant confirm that finding really allowed the C.I.A. to have a high level of confidence in that. That really shaped the understanding in 2016 about what had happened.

archived recording In a memo to C.I.A. staff, director John Brennan said that he, F.B.I. director James Comey, and director of national intelligence James Clapper were now all on the same page about the scope, nature and intent of the Russian interference in our presidential election.

julian barnes

But there is a downside. When you are delivering the most explosive, the most important intelligence, and that intelligence is entering the political debate —

archived recording (donald trump) I think it’s ridiculous. I think it’s just another excuse. I don’t believe it.

julian barnes

— there is a level of scrutiny.

archived recording So we have to be very careful right now. We cannot make these wild assumptions that the Russian government was behind this, because right now, we do not have all of the evidence.

julian barnes

Reporters start asking questions.

archived recording We haven’t been given a shred of evidence to substantiate the claim that the Russians were behind this.

julian barnes

Members of Congress start asking questions. People want to know, how does the C.I.A. know this?

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julian barnes

And there are hints at the end of 2016 that the C.I.A. has a source in Russia.

archived recording New information derived from diplomatic sources and spies working for U.S. allies points directly to the Russian president.

michael barbaro

So despite all the secrecy and the care around this informant, his existence is suddenly something people understand.

julian barnes

Yes. Now, if you go back and look at the stories at the end of 2016, they’re just the lightest hints, but the C.I.A. is getting nervous, because the C.I.A. knows when reporters are asking questions, so, too, are the Russians. And Putin is ruthless about people he considers traitors, so they begin to write a plan to extract the informant from Russia.

[music]

julian barnes

And as the news stories increased in early 2017 —

archived recording This morning, a Washington Post investigation focuses on Russian government interference in our election. In August, the C.I.A. gave then-President Obama a report, quote, “drawn from sourcing deep inside the Russian government.”

julian barnes

— the C.I.A. went to the spy and said, it’s time to go. You need to come to America. That offer was accepted.

michael barbaro

So, Julian, the spy is in the United States. I guess we didn’t know it at the time, but he’s in Virginia. How do you come to get on this story a few months back?

julian barnes

So in 2018, I started reporting about why the U.S. seemed to have not a very good understanding about what Russia’s intentions or strategy for interfering in the midterm elections would be. There was assumptions that they were going to do it, but the intelligence community didn’t have a high level of confidence about exactly what would be going on. So we wrote a story about how the C.I.A.‘s assets in Russia had gone dark and that they no longer had eyes on the Kremlin. Now, at that time, we didn’t know exactly why that was, and that story sort of speculated that there was a number of different reasons why the spies could have gone silent. But what we didn’t know is that the really good spy had been brought out.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm. It’s sort of amazing that you could tell even from the outside that something had changed, and that what had changed turned out to be the absence of a single person. So how common is that, for a country like the U.S. to be so reliant on a single source in a place as important strategically as Russia?

julian barnes

Now, of course, there are multiple sources. You can’t have high confidence in a conclusion and still have one source, but this source is probably the most important one because of the access to the Kremlin. And the reality is, in this day and age, it is very hard to develop good sources. As this story shows, it takes decades. It took years to cultivate this person, to get this person into a place where they could offer the highest and most valuable level of intelligence. You don’t turn around and develop a spy in a year. You don’t get a high-ranking Kremlin official to just turn and give you the crown jewels. And in Russia, the kind of technical intelligence that the U.S. relies on in so many places — eavesdropping, signals intelligence, spy satellites — the Russians are very sophisticated at sort of blocking some of that stuff. And so that puts so much importance on the old-school human spies.

michael barbaro

Everything you just said does not seem to bode very well for our intelligence on Russia with the 2020 election approaching.

julian barnes

That’s right. That’s what’s really important about this story going forward, looking at the 2020 election, when everyone believes that Russia will mount another interference campaign. We know that they’ll do that, but we don’t know how they’ll do it. They’re going to use different tactics than they used before. And if you don’t have the eyes on the ground, you don’t have an early warning system. You don’t know what Russia is going to do. You don’t know what Putin himself is ordering.

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michael barbaro

Julian, thank you very much.

julian barnes

Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

michael barbaro