So I proposed an executive council of 3 councillors

Instead of a single executive

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VonZweir

So, how would these 3 councillors be elected?

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VonZweir

So, how would these 3 councillors be elected?

Sjdubya2

Either nationwide popular electo

Election

Or maybe by region. The country could be divided into 3 districts based on commonalities in industry and culture

But I think 3 councillors on rotating election cues

*cycles of 6 years

Like how the Senate

VonZweir

I'd say, with a Socialist revolution, casting off anything that feels like the old electoral college would be popular with the people. A more "direct democracy" movement, so to speak.

Sjdubya2

Yes for sure

So every two years one of the 3 would be up for election

VonZweir

Hmm'

Sjdubya2

Each with a single 6 year term

Just an idea

VonZweir

That could work.

Sjdubya2

Cause then when any one is for election the other two are still focused on work

VonZweir

I'm not a political expert, so I can't really say what the repercussions of that system is.

Would the SARs' individual governments work in roughly the same way that the federal government does, or would they have their own methods?

Sjdubya2

Maybe, maybe not

I like the idea that they could be "laboratories of socialism"

ComradeFrunze

Own methods

Sjdubya2

Trying out their own forms of socialism

Zir0bo

Indeed. I have to agree

Sjdubya2

Maybe some would be basically anarchistic

VonZweir

So, say, some states might have adopted a single governor(?) to run the executive, while others might prefer to do a system more similar to the federal one

Sjdubya2

And others quite centrally planned

Yeah

Zir0bo

The states work in great cooperation, but when the time is necessary they must come together

Sjdubya2

I wrote Arizona as having a triumvirate

ComradeFrunze

For Louisiana, their is a single executive, but weaker than some states' exec.

And there is 4 houses in the Louisiana Worker's Congress

Sjdubya2

So how should the government economy breakdown work

I like the idea of them being interwoven into a single society

Zir0bo

In Deseret, you have a "Presidency" which consists of three people who are equals, followed by a Quorum of Twelve, then a Quorum of Seventy, all directly elected

VonZweir

Basically the church?

Zir0bo

Yes. It's modeled after it

Sjdubya2

But ostensibly secular

Zir0bo

The LDS Church does not rule Deseret

The government is just modeled after its highest levels

Like a carbon secular copy

Sjdubya2

All sars should be required to be secular. No religious tests for office and no official promotion of any religion

Zir0bo

Obviously. While there may be predominant religions, the Founders at least had some idea of what they were doing when they mandated freedom of religion, which also implicitly included freedom /from/ religion

VonZweir

With that, shouldn't the federal government have a strong stance toward secularism? Particularly something included in the new constitution that goes further than the old in declaring the USAR a secular state?

@sjdubya

Yes, but being careful to indicate that the government is not atheistic either and that religion is not in any way prohibited or discouraged

Zir0bo

Obviously the new government would have to be secular yes, but there would be a lot of fear that a repeat of the Soviet Union's stance on religion

@sjdubya

but a simple "the U.S.A.R. is a secular state" or something along those lines

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VonZweir

Of course. A secular state, but one who encourages the practice (or non-practice) of religion.

@sjdubya

rather is neutral on the subject

Because the constitution of the Soviet Union mandated freedom of religion, but officially was militantly atheistic and prosecuted all religions within its borders

VonZweir

I feel as though Zir0bo has a point, in that people would be afraid that the new government would become more anti-religious, much like the Soviets

So a neutral stance of just declaring the nation secular might not be enough to appease the populace.

@sjdubya

Okay so we include a clause indicating that religious belief is protected in the USAR

Zir0bo

Yes, and that the same is true for lack thereof

@sjdubya

no person shall be persecuted for their religious belief, or lack therof, when that religious belief is not in infringement of another person's rights

Zir0bo

Because one of the pitfalls of the constitution is that it technically allows states like Texas to bar atheists from government jobs

VonZweir

Will the new government have the 3 branches, still?

@sjdubya

Possibly

i think a judicial branch makes a lot of sense

and obvs we need a legislature

VonZweir

Obviously we have Executive and Legislative.

@sjdubya

but i wonder if a fourth could be worked out

it's often said that the executive agencies are, in effect, the fourth branch of government

Zir0bo

The Bureaucracy?

@sjdubya

potentially

VonZweir

Since the USAR is more like pre-Civil War US, in that states have more autonomy and individual culture, would it make sense to have a Judicial branch that may not have as much power?

ComradeFrunze

Here you see all trots dying inside

Zir0bo

Then speak up fellows!

Don't silence yourselves!

@sjdubya

judicial branch would be i think more of a human rights court

ComradeFrunze

Babinism is quite anti-bureaucracy

@sjdubya

i was gonna say

ComradeFrunze

Well, big bureaucracy

@sjdubya

if we enumerate a bureaucracy into law that gives it legitimacy

a large national bureaucracy inevitably leads to centralization

Zir0bo

That is true ...

@sjdubya

but also enumerating its powers explicitly could also have the effect of reigning it in

Zir0bo

Pfft

@sjdubya

as right now it's not even mentioned in the american constitution

Zir0bo

See how well that looked in real life

@sjdubya

and exists in a weird grey area of "president may appoint advisors"

ComradeFrunze

In A Letter to the Workers part 2, Babineaux criticizes Bureaucracy as an easy way for corruption to form.

Zir0bo

There were a ton of people who thought that not enumerating things in the Constitution would reign in the Federal Government

Fat load of good that did

@sjdubya

that's an excellent point

ComradeFrunze

Saying that a socialist state must have limited bureaucracy

@sjdubya

i think first of all we need a concrete list of human rights

Zir0bo

Indeed we do!

@sjdubya

that form the core of our constitution

around which the whole thing is based

ComradeFrunze

Here's the main one

VonZweir

Perhaps those are established in a preamble of sorts? ;)

ComradeFrunze

Protection of the Worker

Protection of the people

@sjdubya

I think they're more important than a preamble

ComradeFrunze

I'm probably going to write a full transcript of Babineaux's Revolution Speech

@sjdubya

if we are to have a judicial branch it's goal shall be to ascertain whether any law passed or any action taken by any body violates rights

and these rights must be listed

VonZweir

Well, just to establish them. Saying "these are the rights that this constitution and government will strive to ensure and protect"

Zir0bo

Ok so

@sjdubya

right to self-identification, of religion, of gender, of sexual orientation

Zir0bo

Like four years ago me and a friend were trying to write a new constitution for the USA

@sjdubya

oh yeah i think i was involved in this

Zir0bo

We took a look at a lot of the existing human rights infrastructure

@sjdubya

back in my libertarian-y days

ComradeFrunze

And of course, Babineaux would believe that some aspects of the original US constitution should be kept.

Zir0bo

We only got through the bill of rights

There could be a lot of stuff in there thats still useful though

after a bit of amendment for sure

VonZweir

Here

@sjdubya

also we should look at the canadian charter of rights and freedoms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

Zir0bo

And it concentrated what I considered at the time to be important, so we could start there

@sjdubya

anachronistic for sure

but it works

Zir0bo

Here

ComradeFrunze

https://www.constituteproject.org/

Zir0bo

It's a google doc

So anyone can edit

VonZweir

Here's an important question, I feel. How will this Constitution be agreed upon and ratified? And when? That might have an effect on what it contains, to a degree

@sjdubya

good point

Zir0bo

For sure

@sjdubya

was it decided upon in the beginning of the revolution?

if not, how was the usar governed before?

initially it was basically just a military alliance of revolutionary socialist militias

Zir0bo

I fear that the LGBT community will still have to struggle for recognition, considering the atmosphere of the times

@sjdubya

did not the soviet constitution guarantee homosexuality's legality, before stalin rescinded that?

and on womens' issues it was remarkably progressive

VonZweir

It's likely, but perhaps they gain recognition, along with other minorities, through the new judicial branch's focus on human rights?

Zir0bo

That's a good point

@sjdubya

i think, like prior revolutionary socialist movements, ours would be remiss not to include homosexual and transgender rights

before anyone calls that anachronistic, transgendered people lead the stonewall riots

Zir0bo

Yeah, it was simply easier for the majority of people to wrap their heads around gays first

@sjdubya

and the early pre-LGBT movements were heavily influenced by transgendered individuals, until the movement gained support

ComradeFrunze

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Cuba_2002?lang=en

That preamble might be quite nice

@sjdubya

but the idea of them being soem other category came only through trying to gain "respectability" which we have obviously wholeheartedly rejected through our revolution

like the essence of it

ComradeFrunze

I suggest we also actually write the constitution

in a google doc

@sjdubya

yeah i'm way ahead of you

got one open

ComradeFrunze

Also US const. for reference: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/United_States_of_America_1992?lang=en

@sjdubya

but we need a framework first before we write the language

VonZweir

^

Get the major points figured out, and then the language can be figured out.

ComradeFrunze

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/johnbrown/brownconstitution.html

@sjdubya

oh yes, you showed this to me earlier

executive branch: one term each right

the rotating nature of it would serve to maintain institutional continuity

plus that guarantees that they never campaign on the job

they get elected with no opportunity of reelection

Zir0bo

I think it would be good if presidents were limited to one term

Or rather, executives

Or whatever we shall name them

How ironic would it be if they were called the board of directors?

But I digress, and plaspheme

*blaspheme

@sjdubya

Councillors

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Zir0bo

Councillors is a good name I suppose

@sjdubya

i think that's appropriately authoritive

has a nice ring to it

Zir0bo

So they are elected directly correct?

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

By simple majority?

Because

I have

A proposition

@sjdubya

i would say yes, using a non-fptp system

but go on

Zir0bo

You see

FPTP

Is the most ungodly

Shittiest

Unimaginably horrid

Imperialist

And unrepresentative system

You could possibly put in place

@sjdubya

preach

Zir0bo

There are two good alternatives

But only one good one for the presidency I think

And that's STV

Do you guys know what that is?

VonZweir

I would +1 for STV

@sjdubya

i do

Zir0bo

STV allows for the most representative choice available and eliminates strategic voting

It also means there's no need for a runoff

@sjdubya

instant runoff is another name for it i think

Zir0bo

Yes

@sjdubya

i do flag votes like that on the sub

"rank your choices" rather than "pick one"

Zir0bo

While Mixed Member Proportional is also a good system, it doesn't work when you're electing only one person

@sjdubya

no one should be elected off of a simple plurality

Zir0bo

Yes, exactly

@sjdubya

because in a non-party based system we'd end up with pluralities

Zir0bo

Yes

While STV allows the candidates to run independent of parties

For Deseret's part, STV is how all elections go

Legislative or Executive

Because political parties are theoretically banned in Deseret

You must run as an individual

@sjdubya

how do you, in practice, ban political parties

Zir0bo

You don't

@sjdubya

i like the idea but it seems unenforcable

Zir0bo

That's why I said in theory

@sjdubya

so how does that then work?

Zir0bo

However, one of the bonuses of having political parties technically illegal means two things

It means that parties have to present the candidate, rather than themselves, and it means that the associations and clubs that previously flourishedin Utah remain the de facto mode of political organization

That's particularly important because the clubs and organizations are extremely numerous

When they make political parties, they necessarily form coalition, and the organizations themselves aren't hierarchical

It gives the average person more of a voice, and allows them to have a more solid distinction than 'republican' or 'democrat'

@sjdubya

i don't think we ought to ban political parties in the constitution, though. i hate political parties but i am of the opinion that unenforcable laws should not be passed

especially since we are looking to minimize bureaucracy

Zir0bo

No, no no, not in the constitution

@sjdubya

i know you weren't advocating that

Zir0bo

I'm just ranting about Deseret

@sjdubya

's cool

we should distinguish the powers of the federal and SAR governments

and the different types of SARS

and what SAR representation in the national legislature looks like

Zir0bo

SAR governments shouldn't have the power to make foreign treaties

First off

@sjdubya

i think that the ISARs should have limited treaty negotiation power

with regards to trade treaties

Zir0bo

ISARs?

@sjdubya

https://www.reddit.com/r/socialistamerica/wiki/sar

those are my very rough ideas for sub-federal organization

Zir0bo

I see

Fair enough

@sjdubya

just because indiginous peoples have been screwed out of their rights for so long

Zir0bo

That's fair

@sjdubya

we treat them as "sovereign nations" currently in the USA

Zir0bo

Not de facto

@sjdubya

but they are essentially territories lacking congressional representation

Zir0bo

*ahem*

@sjdubya

like worse puerto ricos

Zir0bo

Indeed they are

In any case

I think we should put the STV election system for the triumvirate up to vote on the main page

Upvotes mean for, downvotes mean against

@sjdubya

terrible idea. the vote totals aren't accurate

Zir0bo

Oh?

@sjdubya

plus you can't actually see the numbers of up and down

Zir0bo

Hm

That's true

@sjdubya

i use surveymonkey for surveys

Zir0bo

Ok

Put up a survey for it

@sjdubya

but i think we should take a whole draft constitution up

not every little item

Zir0bo

Yeah

@sjdubya

that would be unworkable

Zir0bo

But survey monkey should ask questions about every little item

To see what people thinl

@sjdubya

yeah for sure

Zir0bo

Anyway

@sjdubya

but not until we have a framework

Zir0bo

On to the actually important people

The Legislature

*ominous gong in the distance*

@sjdubya

is any one else still here?

Zir0bo

*states rights rumbling in the distance*

I'm not sure

ComradeFrunze

I'm here

and back

@sjdubya

okay let's set an agenda then cause we've jumped around

Zir0bo

VOOOOOON

GRIIIIIIM

@sjdubya

we went from human rights to sars to legislature

Zir0bo

Alas

@sjdubya

with nothing concrete decided

Zir0bo

We have lost two of our own

And yeah

Agenda

For sure

You set it

@sjdubya

i say we get human rights ironed out first

and do nothing else until then

Zir0bo

Awesome

@sjdubya

that's my vote

Zir0bo

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxrSnGKBo3IOF66P0zn4Ak1EtmwglupEkwjXkdZOCkM/edit

Let's see if we can start with this abomination

@sjdubya

damn son where'd you find this

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@sjdubya

hola friend

Zir0bo

It was in my google docs

Greetings Care!

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@sjdubya

fuck

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@sjdubya

first impression

way too many rights

too wishy washy in the language

this needs to be short, declarative

authoritative

like the word of god

Zir0bo

Yeah

It was written four years ago

@sjdubya

for sure

Zir0bo

Don't be too harsh

Or else I'll bring up your libertarian days in public

@sjdubya

shhhhhhh

well first off

in keeping with our revolution

no legalese

language of the constitution needs to be no-bullshit

direct

easily understood

Zir0bo

For sho

Of course, I have a feeling the USAR is going to develop more legalese over time, as is the fate of all states

But maybe the singularity will happen before then

@sjdubya

does not mean we should not fight it

i am sure babineaux would agree

Zir0bo

Precisely

@sjdubya

as a socialist state, the most fundamental right, aside from those to life, is the right to what one produces

ComradeFrunze

aye

Zir0bo

Yee

@sjdubya

but as we are a state, unfortunately there is an aspect of coercion still present

i.e. taxes

Zir0bo

Monopoly of force comes to mind

@sjdubya

that is entirely unavoidable within the context of a state, which is why i lean anarcho-syndicalist

ComradeFrunze

Deleonism friend

Marxo-Syndicalism

@sjdubya

explanation?

ComradeFrunze

Babineaux was quite a fan of Deleon

Careless_Magnus

Marxo-Syndicalism? How does that even work?

back to human rights and economics pl0x

mittim80

we the ogres

in order to form a more perfect onion

ComradeDakayonnano

should we establish a mincome type of thing?

@sjdubya

maybe

we need to figure out more about the economy before we get to specifics

like theory of value, currency, etc

how is industry represented in government?

service vs physical industry

art

etc

ComradeDakayonnano

We could look at how the IWW is structured

mittim80

no money

@sjdubya

but we should enumerate human rights

mittim80

labor vouchers

@sjdubya

1) right to health care and education

ComradeDakayonnano

I know they have separate little sections for different sectors

@sjdubya

2) right to free speech

3) right to what you produce (except taxes)

ComradeDakayonnano

Abolition of private land ownership

@sjdubya

4) right to free use of land and resources held in common

but with restrictions to prevent overfishing and stuff

mittim80

5( equality of all races genders and creeds

@sjdubya

we should list them in order of importance on the final document. rights may only be infringed in the service of a higher listed right

like the right of the people to a clean environment trumps your right to land use

right to self-identification

ComradeDakayonnano

Regarding 4, free of land and resources is naturally limited by the interest of the community over the individual

@sjdubya

that's true but we should also include an environmental right

right to security in ones' person and personal property

right to be free from unwarranted search and seizure

right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment

ComradeDakayonnano

Right to a fair and speedy trial

Right to legal counsel if lawyers are even really a thing

mittim80

How is the judicial system?

@sjdubya

right to education in ones' own language

undecided yet

ComradeDakayonnano

right to housing and healthcare

oops healthcare was mentioned

but still housing

@sjdubya

right to vote of course

in all national elections, free of impediment

mittim80

right to limited and accountable government

@sjdubya

with no tests or barriers

how is that one enforced

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@sjdubya

right to freedom of travel throughout all SARs

ComradeDakayonnano

presumably by the will of the people

@sjdubya

freedom of residence in all non-ISARs

mittim80

what right are we on now?

like 12?

@sjdubya

no idea

gonna compile them real quick in the doc

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@sjdubya

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PrAm4md7IrQnUk2VCXolR2fkiDyKkj6WlQp3sPEKtGU/edit

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mittim80

sorry 4 temorary leave of absence

ComradeDakayonnano

I think thats all of the ones we listed

@sjdubya

oh religion

Zir0bo

I was about to say

mittim80

freedom of religion!

until it withrs away

@sjdubya

we will work on combining/sorting/wording them later

ComradeDakayonnano

thats a nice touch

"freedom from imposition"

i like it

Zir0bo

Indeed

@sjdubya

for anyone not on doc

Healthcare

Education

Housing

No cruel and unusual punishment

Self-Identification

Equality of race, gender, sexuality

Clean environment

Free use of land and resources held in common

Products of Labor

Freedom of Travel and Residency

Voting without impediments and with all reasonable acommodation

No unreasonable search and seizure

No Self-incrimination

Right to be provided a defence attorney/representative

Right to material in one’s own language

Freedom of religion, and from imposition of religion

ComradeDakayonnano

what next?

@sjdubya

economy

first: currency

(this won't be in the constitution but is vital background info

)

ComradeDakayonnano

if there is currency, there should only be one for the whole state

@sjdubya

do we use a currency and a market socialist system (at least at lower levels) or labor vouchers and go full labor theory of value

Zir0bo

Full LTV should be the end goal, but as Lenin noted early in his reign it's impractical

ComradeDakayonnano

I'm not opposed to vouchers

@sjdubya

there needs to be some incentive for harder labor though

Zir0bo

The problem of course, is not getting stuck in a quagmire of market socialism

@sjdubya

ltv is good for that

market socialism is not capitalism nor is it state capitalism

it's a different school of socialist thought

ComradeDakayonnano

I don't necessarily think harder labor should be a goal

@sjdubya

no but it needs to be done

i do think the USAR's largest priority as a society should be the increase of leisure time

here's an unorthodox idea, borrowed from the incan empire

tawantinsuyu

Zir0bo

Labor as taxes?

mittim80

its goal shuld be socialism

@sjdubya

sort of, or at least in part

mittim80

and whatever results from it

@sjdubya

the incan empire had a system of labor-tax called the mitu

basically all citizens would spend 10 months of the year on their farms or in their villages

most were artisans or farmers

2 months would be spend in service to "society" or the state

specifically the nation

(the incan empire)

ComradeDakayonnano

Having worker ownership and management of the workplace should reduce alienation enough without going full gulag

@sjdubya

*mita i just realized

so people would spend 2 months fishing, mining, or building roads to meet the needs of the rest of the state

to make up for any dearths in supply

etc

mittim80

thats a bit extreme..

@sjdubya

the inca had a vast surplus of goods, no markets, and good quality of life

working conditions on the mita were good

mittim80

the USAR wil be very decentralized

ComradeDakayonnano

the inca were also living in a pre-industrial society

@sjdubya

yes and that is my concern with this idea, but it was worth bringing up

mittim80

the overarching

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@sjdubya

perhaps as a model for SAR labor-tax, not national

mittim80

state will be very limited

@sjdubya

just thinking of unconventional ideas for taxation and the foundation of state

mittim80

limited to a small managerial role

Zir0bo

If the USAR has a small and managerial role, how is it to contend against the might of the Soviet Union? Or even the UK and its Commonwealth realsm for that matter?

ComradeDakayonnano

to toot my own horn, the state should be limited to ensuring the security of the interior from external reactionary forces and to ensure that all constituent parts are able to support themselves via the distribution of surplus resources

p much this: https://www.reddit.com/r/socialistamerica/comments/3p0ltr/the_role_of_the_revolutionary_state_juana/

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@sjdubya

we need to maintain naval superiority

nuclear weapons

space travel

technological advancement

especially on large projects

mittim80

yes

@sjdubya

the USAR government itself should be small-ish. and legislatively its role would be weak

power is decentralized

the human rights court makes sure that SARs hold to human rights

mittim80

the overarching USAR government will be in charge of large puboic works projects

@sjdubya

SARs control their own economic development and some may use the labor-tax system

Zir0bo

And defense of the Republics

@sjdubya

social welfare will mostly take place on the SAR or lower scale

but USAR oversees trade deals between SARs

Zir0bo

Which means that if other SARs turn out shitty, people can just move

@sjdubya

and distributes surplus

and yes freedom of movement is important

Zir0bo

That way we can figure out which SARs are good ideas and which ... aren't so good

@sjdubya

but we need to also ensure equality of development

Zir0bo

Indeed

ComradeDakayonnano

Perhaps the central government could set a certain minimum standard of living?

Zir0bo

I think 'to each according to his need' can be applied to the SAR level

@sjdubya

so if appalachia produces tons of coal but little food and kansas produces butttons of food, in the absense of national corporatoins, the USAR government ensures distribution of those resouces

industry is local. very few individuals or cooperatives will have the ability to set up and maintain nationwide supply chains

which is good

Zir0bo

So the USAR will essentially provide a free trade avenue?

ComradeDakayonnano

I'm ok with that

@sjdubya

yeah perhaps as a middleman

a facilitor of trade

Zir0bo

I can see it now

@sjdubya

maybe even a national delivery service

Zir0bo

USAR rail lines carrying goods from between SARs

@sjdubya

exactly

community in arizona has oranges

ComradeDakayonnano

This opens up some sub-SAR communities to going as far as mutualism, which is cool with me

@sjdubya

community in minnesota has green beans

neither has the capital to transport, but with USAR telecom and rail and truck infrastructure, the trade is facilitated

Zir0bo

USAR will also be responsible for trading with the outside world for the most part

Which means surplus can be traded to other nations

@sjdubya

i honestly would be okay with communities negotiating deals with certain select socialist trading partners

USAR "ethical"-rated partners

and the USAR is just a facilitator

Zir0bo

Yes, so long as its goods like oranges and green beans

Rather than uranium

@sjdubya

yeah not kalashnikovs

ComradeDakayonnano

specifically only oranges and green beans

nothing else

Zir0bo

Yep. Just those two

ComradeDakayonnano

though maybe just oranges

@sjdubya

yeah we're an orange and green bean based economy

ComradeFrunze

For instance Louisiana crawfish

@sjdubya

fite me

ComradeDakayonnano

because i will personally eat all green beans

Zir0bo

Every single one

ComradeDakayonnano

all of them

everywhere

steamed, raw, covered in butter

Zir0bo

I shall stuff all the surplus cotton in the south into my mouth

ComradeDakayonnano

any style

Zir0bo

That's what we'll do with it

@sjdubya

this is a good system

Zir0bo

10/10 would meme

Anyway

@sjdubya

allows for the development of community government

Zir0bo

What we were actually discussing WAS a good system

@sjdubya

forces people to be involved in local dealings

Zir0bo

Otherwise they are left voiceless

@sjdubya

and allows national commerce without capitalism

Zir0bo

Which, to be fai

*fair

@sjdubya

AND we let comparative advantage develop

Zir0bo

If you want to remain voiceless, you're totally in your right to

@sjdubya

OOH IDEA

Zir0bo

If you want to dissapear into the Rockies, never to be seen again, subsisting on your own, go ahead

ComradeDakayonnano

I wont be able to speak with the worlds supply of green beans in my mouth

@sjdubya

so instead of taxing producers directly

the USAR as a middleman, takes a small portion of the goods in the trades it facilitates

and then distributes the surplus

Zir0bo

And the amount it can take is legislated?

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

That sounds

@sjdubya

and different goods, different percentages

Zir0bo

Actually really nice

ComradeDakayonnano

Perhaps retaining a strategic reserve of certain essential commodoties?

@sjdubya

yes exactly

ComradeDakayonnano

like wheat, oil, etc?

Zir0bo

That would always be necessary

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

Like a gold reserve except for actually useful materials

Not to say gold isn't useful

ComradeDakayonnano

computers

Zir0bo

You can make things shiny and nice with it

And electronics

ComradeDakayonnano

fully automated luxury communism gogogogo

@sjdubya

this is good too because we can kind of entirely skirt the money issue for basic goods

Zir0bo

Hey, that's the goal mane

@sjdubya

communities act as good distributors

Zir0bo

As they generally always have

@sjdubya

by USAR law, everyone is guaranteed a minimum standard

to be legislated

Zir0bo

This'll make the Mormons happy, to be sure

@sjdubya

communities must facilitate that

ComradeDakayonnano

We should write this into the google doc before it gets lost in the ehter

ether

@sjdubya

either by being self-sufficient or by trading

Zir0bo

We're way ahead of this with the United Order

We should write this into the google doc before it gets lost in the ehter

ether

@sjdubya

either by being self-sufficient or by trading

Zir0bo

We're way ahead of this with the United Order

It's a step forward in the right direction, as well as a step back in the right direction

@sjdubya

i'm copy pasting a transcript into a different doc

ComradeDakayonnano

ok cool

@sjdubya

periodically

skipped the preamble bs

Zir0bo

Also, if we're going to get even more personal

ComradeDakayonnano

did the green beans make it into the transcript?

Zir0bo

What about facilitation of goods between people?

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

Like, individuals

Imagine a yard sale or something

I'm trying to get rid of stuff I consider junk

@sjdubya

that's when we may want to examine money vs labor vouchers

Zir0bo

Someone else wants it

ComradeDakayonnano

if you want to give your buddy your supply of green beans then thats your prerogative

@sjdubya

we could just leave it as a barder system

*barter

Zir0bo

But barter is inconvenient and encourages competition

@sjdubya

but that's inefficient and a defacto currency will probably emeege

ComradeDakayonnano

on a personal level it can totes be a gift economy

@sjdubya

well competition is not a bad thing

gift economies are cool

competition is only bad when it impedes cooperation

again, market socialism is a thing

i'm not a market socialist

but it is a thing

Zir0bo

Hmmm

@sjdubya

mutualism is another thing we can look at

Zir0bo

May I propose something?

@sjdubya

sure

Zir0bo

So we know how things work from the community level and up

@sjdubya

roughly sure

Zir0bo

10/10 would meme

Anyway

@sjdubya

allows for the development of community government

Zir0bo

What we were actually discussing WAS a good system

@sjdubya

forces people to be involved in local dealings

Zir0bo

Otherwise they are left voiceless

@sjdubya

and allows national commerce without capitalism

Zir0bo

Which, to be fai

*fair

@sjdubya

AND we let comparative advantage develop

Zir0bo

If you want to remain voiceless, you're totally in your right to

@sjdubya

OOH IDEA

Zir0bo

If you want to dissapear into the Rockies, never to be seen again, subsisting on your own, go ahead

ComradeDakayonnano

I wont be able to speak with the worlds supply of green beans in my mouth

@sjdubya

so instead of taxing producers directly

the USAR as a middleman, takes a small portion of the goods in the trades it facilitates

and then distributes the surplus

Zir0bo

And the amount it can take is legislated?

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

That sounds

@sjdubya

and different goods, different percentages

Zir0bo

Actually really nice

ComradeDakayonnano

Perhaps retaining a strategic reserve of certain essential commodoties?

@sjdubya

yes exactly

ComradeDakayonnano

like wheat, oil, etc?

Zir0bo

That would always be necessary

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

Like a gold reserve except for actually useful materials

Not to say gold isn't useful

ComradeDakayonnano

computers

Zir0bo

You can make things shiny and nice with it

And electronics

ComradeDakayonnano

fully automated luxury communism gogogogo

@sjdubya

this is good too because we can kind of entirely skirt the money issue for basic goods

Zir0bo

Hey, that's the goal mane

@sjdubya

communities act as good distributors

Zir0bo

As they generally always have

@sjdubya

by USAR law, everyone is guaranteed a minimum standard

to be legislated

Zir0bo

This'll make the Mormons happy, to be sure

@sjdubya

communities must facilitate that

ComradeDakayonnano

We should write this into the google doc before it gets lost in the ehter

ether

@sjdubya

either by being self-sufficient or by trading

Zir0bo

We're way ahead of this with the United Order

It's a step forward in the right direction, as well as a step back in the right direction

@sjdubya

i'm copy pasting a transcript into a different doc

ComradeDakayonnano

ok cool

@sjdubya

periodically

skipped the preamble bs

Zir0bo

Also, if we're going to get even more personal

ComradeDakayonnano

did the green beans make it into the transcript?

Zir0bo

What about facilitation of goods between people?

@sjdubya

yes

Zir0bo

Like, individuals

Imagine a yard sale or something

I'm trying to get rid of stuff I consider junk

@sjdubya

that's when we may want to examine money vs labor vouchers

Zir0bo

Someone else wants it

ComradeDakayonnano

if you want to give your buddy your supply of green beans then thats your prerogative

@sjdubya

we could just leave it as a barder system

*barter

Zir0bo

But barter is inconvenient and encourages competition

@sjdubya

but that's inefficient and a defacto currency will probably emeege

ComradeDakayonnano

on a personal level it can totes be a gift economy

@sjdubya

well competition is not a bad thing

gift economies are cool

competition is only bad when it impedes cooperation

again, market socialism is a thing

i'm not a market socialist

but it is a thing

Zir0bo

Hmmm

@sjdubya

mutualism is another thing we can look at

Zir0bo

May I propose something?

@sjdubya

sure

Zir0bo

So we know how things work from the community level and up

@sjdubya

roughly sure

Zir0bo

But what if local communities can communally run their own banks, and print their own currency, usable within their own communities?

That way facilitation is more convenient

While the bank itself is held in common

@sjdubya

that's a very anarchist idea

not necessarily opposed

mittim80

yes

ComradeDakayonnano

I'm for it

@sjdubya

competing currencies are interesting ideas

Zir0bo

Well here

mittim80

keep it local

Zir0bo

I don't think they'd be competing necessarily

ComradeDakayonnano

(speaking as someone somewhere in the ancom/syndicalist tendencies)

Zir0bo

Basically what you would have is currency that is valuable within your own community

Stuff that makes exchange easier

@sjdubya

i would be an anarchist if there was no need for national infrastructure

ComradeDakayonnano

the only issue one might run into is if someone travels to a new community, they become broke

@sjdubya

yeah i am not opposed

Zir0bo

It's probably worthless paper or collector items if it goes somewhere else

That's the only problem

@sjdubya

that is true but i would imagine that in other communities exchanges would developo

Zir0bo

Indeed

Though eventually this would become huge

@sjdubya

communities wouldn't need the USAR to trade with nearby communities

Zir0bo

Yep

ComradeDakayonnano

Thats why I think a gift economy would present the least amount of challenges as far as inter-community dealings go

@sjdubya

elaborate a bit please for those who are unfamiliar

mittim80

basically each local community can act independedtly

Zir0bo

Gift economies cannot be developed without the necessary cultural shift

And those take generations

mittim80

but from eqch community a small amount is set aside for the USAR

for defence and public works

Zir0bo

Dubya, basically how it works is you give gifts to people with the implicit idea that they pay you back later

ComradeDakayonnano

so for those of us unaware, a gift economy is a system that removes the implicit assumption of "since I'm giving you this, i expect goods/services in return"

@sjdubya

no i know what it is i'm just asking for if anyone else doesn't know

ComradeDakayonnano

i know

Zir0bo

You essentially develop informal ties between people

The "you scratched my back that one time and all those other times so I'll scratch yours"

It's not mandated by law

Which means there's no coercive element

However

mittim80

how do we defend the gift economy?

Zir0bo

There may be something far more frightening

And that is ....

SOCIAL OSTRACISM

mittim80

like how do we prevent capitalists from seting up a capitalist exchange system in their community?

Zir0bo

Though for the sociopaths in the general population this probably wouldn't be an issue

@sjdubya

wage labor is strictly outlawed in the same sense that slavery is outlawed

Zir0bo

I don't think Mittim80 is talking about wages

I think they're talking about a fixed exchange rate

@sjdubya

well that's the core of capitalism so

Zir0bo

By which the capitalist, through finance benefits

But technically, he's not paying anyone

He's just a medium of exchange

@sjdubya

currency speculation and markets you mean?

Zir0bo

Which is a problem

Yep

It'll lead back to the rottenness of yesteryear real quick

@sjdubya

yeah speculation is a no-no

Zir0bo

Hence, gift economies don't really work unless the culture is ready

Which

In case you haven't noticed

The US is anything but ready

And I do mean the US

Not the USAR

@sjdubya

let's play with local currencies some more

Zir0bo

Because a government replaced doesn't mean people replaced

Indeed

I like the idea of my communal banks

@sjdubya

by the way

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics

Zir0bo

If interest rates don't become a thing then you can't exactly export the bank and have a community take over another

@sjdubya

this is the core of how production should be managed

ComradeDakayonnano

i'm not opposed to parecon

@sjdubya

one of the things i worry about with currencies is usury

Zir0bo

Interest rates can't be a thing

@sjdubya

and the development of a class of people whose only job is managing money

Zir0bo

We can't let that happen or else people start playing with money

ComradeDakayonnano

yeah, maybe local economies should be a no-no

not economies

currencies

@sjdubya

okay so no interest rates i can get behind

maybe local labor vouchers

Zir0bo

And while the intellectual leaps and bounds made to create finance as a whole are impressive, and they really speak to the ability of humanity to extrapolate on singular ideas, they aren't good

@sjdubya

each community has tradable vouchers when you do service to a community

*to that community

so like favors from the community

as a halfway step to a gift economy

Zir0bo

Ah fuck

Something just slapped me upside the head

@sjdubya

you okay?

Zir0bo

What about the money people already had in savings accounts?

Like, regular people

Workers

Life savings

You know?

What happens to that?

I mean, the US no longer exists

So it can't back the Federal currency

ComradeDakayonnano

Perhaps that equivalent value could be exchanged for labor vouchers?

Zir0bo

Maybe

I just don't want to toss them to the side

ComradeDakayonnano

as long as the physical records survive the revolution, you can confirm those values

@sjdubya

there's gonna have to be a massive reparations program at the beginning

both for natives and minorities and for ordinary folks exploited by capitalism

a redistribution but not in the maoist "give everyone a steel mill" sense

Zir0bo

Soviet peasants were left to starve during the civil war in Russia and they were given nothing back for their suffering

I don't want a repeat of that

@sjdubya

agreed

VonZweir

Zir0bo: PM

@sjdubya

well i think part of that will be helped with our guaranteed minimum standard of living

ComradeDakayonnano

yeah, also not having a civil war in the middle of the russian winter in the middle of a world war in a not quite industrial society will help

@sjdubya

reparations to minorities should be substantial. ISARs have already been granted by their structure a lot of land

but will also be helped by the USAR to build new roads and infrastructure to link their communities together, especially in northern canada, where the prior government made sure that all native communities were linked to larger white towns

ComradeDakayonnano

that might have to be conducted on a community-by-community basis, a singular policy national cant fix the various oppressions forced upon each minority

@sjdubya

yes for sure

just sketching out the broad strokes

the USA should have done reparations during reconstruction

ComradeDakayonnano

for sure

@sjdubya

but regardless these are policy, not constitutional or societal questions

you're right

Zir0bo

So we've got broad strokes for the community level and above, but we're stuck on indivduals

@sjdubya

okay so what do people think of localized labor vouchers?

Zir0bo

So far as I can see, its a debate between communal banks and labor vouchers

← mittim80 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)

Zir0bo

I don't know how they work 100%, and I've actually taken a history of money class so I know more about local currency

But I'm neutral

ComradeDakayonnano

I'm down for localized labor vouchers, especially in the initial stages handed out in recompense for any personal savings lost

@sjdubya

local vouchers would help encourage community engagement but they may also shackle individuals to their communities

the USAR should absolutely, as a transport infrastructure facilitator, facilitate moves

Zir0bo

Local currencies allow for more freedom of movement, especially if exchange rates are established

But then we get into other problems

Like who sets those rates

@sjdubya

people should be able to apply for facilitated relocation if they are financially shackled to a community

Zir0bo

And how to keep individuals from fucking things up with Shadow Banking

ComradeDakayonnano

Vouchers avoid those problems

@sjdubya

not necessarily

since labor vouchers are tied to a specific community and cannot be banked or exchanged, they are very non-liquid

means you don't have the ability to drive to a nearby community and purchase anything

ComradeDakayonnano

Perhaps vouchers could be set at an SAR level, but distributed at a community level?

@sjdubya

that's a good idea

ComradeDakayonnano

so if you have a voucher from boston, you could use it in worcester etc

Zir0bo

All this talk of vouchers reminds me too much of Ayn Rand, except I know that this isn't really the same thing

@sjdubya

there are other issues though, as any place-related currency or voucher means that you can't leave that place

travel becomes harder too

as your money is only valid within your SAR

ComradeDakayonnano

if you establish vouchers at an SAR level, its easier to exchange it for travel since there are fewer flavours

@sjdubya

and you can't be expected to carry your production with you when you travel

so SARs have their own exchange systems then?

ComradeDakayonnano

not sure, i'm just spitballin'

@sjdubya

okay for sure

i don't want the USAR to become entirely disconnected and insular. i think if states set exchange rates for labor vouchers/currencies and banking is handled that way then that could work fine

a gift economy, if set up properly, could avoid some of these issues, but would also make travel is hard

*too not is wtf

Zir0bo

Hrngh

ComradeDakayonnano

the USAR could also set exchange rates

Zir0bo

The biggest problem I suppose is that we want liquidity, but liquidity can lead to horror

ComradeDakayonnano

but that might detract too much power away from individual SARs

@sjdubya

this is a pretty tough problem

Zir0bo

Yeah for sure

Managing the future of an entire nation's economy is hard

And we're not even doing that

We're just setting guidelines

@sjdubya

i got an anarchist friend who's pro-competing currencies and i'll ask her what she thinks

Zir0bo

And it's still fucking insane

ComradeDakayonnano

Lets make green beans the national currency and call it a night

@sjdubya

lol

Zir0bo

Gold

@sjdubya

let's move on from this issue

Zir0bo

That is gold

Yes indeed

Either MMP or STV

Depending on whether you want parties institutionalized or not

ComradeDakayonnano

what do those stand for?

Zir0bo

Mixed Member Proportional and Single Transferable Vote

@sjdubya

no institutionalized perties

*parties

Zir0bo

MMP creates institutionalized parties, while STV doesn't

ComradeDakayonnano

i'm guessing that would be STV

yeah

I'm down with STV

@sjdubya

the ideal is that everyone runs as an individual, and while that is impossible to enforce, we should at least not help parties along

STV it is

now different houses?

Zir0bo

Well

If we're scrapping the preamble

We may as well make the legislature new

To fit the times

@sjdubya

i had an idea for an industry council, where members of different industries are elected

Zir0bo

Industries can die though

@sjdubya

and then a regional council where regions elect

they'd be granted representation based on their percentage of the national surplus

or something like that

huh nvm

that only works for physical goods

but the idea was this

Zir0bo

The problem with industry is that while they may seem important now, they can be made irrelevant by technology

ComradeDakayonnano

I feel like in a nation of hundreds of millions you kind of need a tiered representative system

Zir0bo

Of course

@sjdubya

yes and that is why each SAR is itself a federation

Zir0bo

Especially with such great cultural differenes

ComradeDakayonnano

like you have your local community, then SAR, then National at the very least

@sjdubya

so each community sends a representative or more to a sub-SAR council

then sub-SAR councils to SAR

SAR to national

but ALSO a proportionally allocated house of reps style thing

based on SAR population

maybe?

ComradeDakayonnano

since its offset by the main council of SAR's that might work

Zir0bo

I don't even know man

ComradeDakayonnano

but it is also super similar to the current bicameral system

@sjdubya

yeah

are there some non-traditional legislative systems in the world we can look to for inspiration

ComradeDakayonnano

perhaps having larger regional councils?

@sjdubya

seems like everyone has a parliament of some sort

well i had an idea, with the industry councils, based on an outgrowth of trade unions

ComradeDakayonnano

how are the kibbutzim represented in israeli parliament?

that might be not too dissimilar from what we want

@sjdubya

no idea

at local government level, anyway, worker self management would result in a sort of loose trade union structure

workers elect a manager for every, say, 100 workers

ComradeDakayonnano

once again, we might look to how the IWW is structured

@sjdubya

then those managers coordinate with other sites/farms/factories of the same industry

The unit of organization is the INDUSTRIAL UNION, "branched" according to the requirements of the particular industry. In some instances the Industrial Union may embrace all the workers of a given industry, while in other industries several Industrial Unions with distinct jurisdiction may be necessary to cover the situation; as, for instance, in the "Industry of Marine Transportation"--one union on the Great Lakes, one on the Atlantic and Gulf Seaboard, one on the Pacific Coast, one on the Mississippi River system--each being branched to meet the special requirements of the particular situation.

Industrial Unions of closely allied industries are combined into departmental organizations. For example, the Marine 'Transport Workers' Industrial Unions referred to above would be united with Railway or Steam Transportation Industrial Unions, Municipal Transportation Industrial Unions, Motor Truck Transporters, and Aviators' Unions, into the "Department of Transportation and Communication."

The Industrial Departments are combined into the General Organization, which in turn is to be an integral part of a like International Organization; and through the international organization establish solidarity and co-operation between the workers of all countries.

Component Parts of the Organization

Taking into consideration the technical differences that exist within the different departments of the industries and conditions existing where large numbers of workers are employed, the Industrial Union is "branched" wherever necessary, If the union includes ALL the workers in a given industry or a distinct jurisdiction within an industry, "Industrial Branches" of the Union are established in the centers most convenient for the workers.

These Industrial Branches are further subdivided into:

(1) Shop sections, so that the workers of each shop control the conditions that directly affect them.

(2) Language sections, so that the workers can conduct the affairs of the organization in the language with which they are the most familiar.

(3) In those large industries that are operated by departments, DEPARTMENT subdivisions are formed to systematize and simplify the business of the organization.

(4) When an industry covers a large local area, or is the principal industry of a city, DISTRICT subdivisions are formed, to enable the workers to attend union meetings without traveling too great a distance.

(5) In order that every given industrial district shall have complete industrial solidarity among the workers in all industries as well as among the workers of each industry, an INDUSTRIAL DISTRICT COUNCIL is formed by delegates elected from all the Industrial Unions and Industrial Branches operating in that district and, through this Council concerted action is maintained throughout the district.

this is pretty similar to my industrial council idea but more fleshed out

but i hadn't heard of this idea

or at least formulated this way

ComradeDakayonnano

the IWW has the 6 departments of

Department 100 - Agriculture and Fisheries

Department 200 - Mining and Minerals

Department 300 - General Construction

Department 400 - Manufacture and General Production

Department 500 - Transportation and Communication

Department 600 - Public Service

well that formatting exploded

@sjdubya

but again this is pretty heavily tailored to industrial labor

ComradeDakayonnano

the IWW doesnt preclude non industrial labor

@sjdubya

and doesn't really factor in service, information, or other non-physical labor

artistic and intellectual labor is easy to quantify and fit into this framework, but service labor is a bit harder

though i suppose they could organize into a union of sorts

ComradeDakayonnano

well you just add a service department

@sjdubya

i guess that makes sense

ComradeDakayonnano

it might be a little heavy handed

@sjdubya

how does this work at the national scale?

just the department legislatures?

ComradeDakayonnano

well we could have a tricameral legislature

the ones that resemble the current house and senate

and then the industrial one

@sjdubya

so SAR council, Labor council, and popular council?

ComradeDakayonnano

yeah

@sjdubya

i could see that

so popular council could be de-linked from SARs all together

ComradeDakayonnano

true

@sjdubya

instead using "districts" of equal population

but we have to be careful of gerrymandering

and so redistricting should be done by the SAR council

ComradeDakayonnano

well once you're able to automate it with computers

you could just do that

Zir0bo

And we could automate it with computers back in the eighties

Granted

It sometimes created unfair divisions

@sjdubya

it's the travelling salesman problem though. there's a million ways to split populations up

Zir0bo

But at least it was fairly done

@sjdubya

there'd have to be a smallest possible unit that could be divided

perhaps whole communities

ComradeDakayonnano

the divisions should have to be approved by the other two chambers of the legislature

@sjdubya

yeah both would be good, not just the one

ComradeDakayonnano

also perhaps it could be a flat % of population?

@sjdubya

yes

direct democracy

Zir0bo

Ooh! Yes! Yes!

@sjdubya

referendum to approve redistricting

Zir0bo

Ignore the SAR borders!

Just divide it based on equal pops!

@sjdubya

so SAR council is basically the sente

Zir0bo

YES!

@sjdubya

*senate

ComradeDakayonnano

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbmB9k2Y88

@sjdubya

popular council is equal districts

nationally

not bound by SARs

like nielsen viewing markets

Zir0bo

^me

@sjdubya

lol

okay good framework

ComradeDakayonnano

and of course this system could be mirrored at an SAR level

@sjdubya

SAR council, Labor council and Popular Council

but that's up to the SARs

Zir0bo

Legislature has been ANNIHILATED

*ahem*

That's to say we've figured it out

@sjdubya

but I think SAR redistrictings have to be nationally approved

ComradeDakayonnano

ofc

@sjdubya

to ensure no jim crow shenanigasns

Zir0bo

I'm looking at you South

Fucking

@sjdubya

well the south has been pretty much annihilated tbh

Zir0bo

That was almost a pre-requisite

@sjdubya

missouri is the most southern state that remained intact

i wonder if we should split new afrika up to give it more advantage in the sar council

among other reasons

it's been proposed before

for different reasons

Zir0bo

Perhaps

@sjdubya

let's examine minority representation in this system real quick

sanity check it

Zir0bo

Do we have any black people in our subreddit? Specifically people who live in those areas?

@sjdubya

dunno

Zir0bo

I think they should probably be consulted on something like this

@sjdubya

i don't know the ethnicity of anyone but you

Zir0bo

That is true

ComradeDakayonnano

not I, said the white jewish northeasterner

@sjdubya

white southwesterner

Zir0bo

Neither I, said the Russian Jewish Southwesterner

@sjdubya

my guess is that, like reddit, our subreddit skews heavily white male

exacerbated by our smallness

Zir0bo

It's a damn shame too

@sjdubya

yeah

ComradeDakayonnano

also alt history in general is skewed heavily by that

@sjdubya

but nothing we can really do about that

for sure

Zir0bo

We've tried our best but it's likely not enough

@sjdubya

well outside of that specific issue

minority representation

ComradeDakayonnano

how are native sars represented?

@sjdubya

so say all white people in the country are mega racists and want to try their hardest to screw over minorities

well they have seats in the SAR council, may make treaties with other nations, have special rights and priveleges

*privileges

but that's not representation; that's rights and privileges

as of right now, nothing special representatoinwise

we need built in institutional safeguards

ComradeDakayonnano

yeah

perhaps a consitutional line somewhere regarding how the sovereignty of native SARs is to never be infringed?

Zir0bo

Or specifically how the Native SARs rights cannot ever be changed without referendumswithin those SARs, followed by their legislatures approving? Or vice versa?

@sjdubya

Native SAR rights may never be restricted; only expanded

ComradeDakayonnano

i'd say legislature->referendum->legislature?

that way its double checked?

@sjdubya

constitutional safeguard built in to the enumeration of the ISAR

ComradeDakayonnano

that sounds like it would work

@sjdubya

other minorities though

and disadvantaged groups

part of that is handled by the constitutional court

what if we have a separate minority rights court

Zir0bo

That would be pretty cool

Speaking of courts

ComradeDakayonnano

perhaps a sub-council made of minorities from the population-based council?

Zir0bo

What about the police? That's a pretty touchy subject

@sjdubya

not a constitutional issue

what would the powers of the minority council be?

and how would it interact with the larger council

ComradeDakayonnano

it would to ensure that any piece of legislation passed by the larger council would not accidentally overrun the rights of minorities

pretty much just a safeguard

@sjdubya

a subcommittee then

i like it

if we do it as a subcommittee we should split it

womens' rights council, ethnic minority rights council, LGBT rights council

ComradeDakayonnano

true

Zir0bo

There should be provisions to add more councils

@sjdubya

or maybe these should be oversight courts

yes

Zir0bo

As issues become more far reaching

ComradeFrunze

What about ethnicities that are majorities in one SAR but minorities in the country itself?

Zir0bo

I mean hell, we might need an extraterrestrial council at some point

Hmm

ComradeFrunze

Like: Cajuns

@sjdubya

well maybe that should be a constitutional amendment

don't want to make it too expansive

the extra councils thing not the cajun thing

ComradeDakayonnano

extraterrestrials are a bridge that can be crossed when we get to it

Zir0bo

I just used it as an example

We're not crossing that bridge

Until we find the,

*them

@sjdubya

i hope we don't find them

i sincerely hope we're alone

but that's a discussion for another time

Zir0bo

Indeed

@sjdubya

i think extra councils should be added by constitutional amendment

but amendments should be easier than in the us

national referendum

and then oversight by the oversight councils and human rights court

reverse those steps

to get on ballot, needs petition of x signatures

courts and councils review

and then vote

ComradeFrunze

So what about my question?

@sjdubya

what about them?

ComradeFrunze

They are ethnic minorities in the country itself

@sjdubya

well my minority councils are mostly focused on visible minorities

but i suppose there's no reason why others could not be added

but there'd be an oversight process to be registered as a protected minority to prevent abuse and to prevent it from being filled with white people

@sjdubya

so what if we combine judicial and minority councils into a new branch of government

"oversight"

a broad scope for ensuring that the government does not overstep

for fighting corruption

investigating charges

etc

so redistricting and referedums would be approved by oversight branch before voting

ComradeDakayonnano

would that be a part of the judicial branch then?

as a part of judicial review?

@sjdubya

yeah

judicial would be reformed

not a 4th branch

but a transformation and officialization of judicial review

perhaps we'd have a high court too but its purpose would just be the final arbitration of cases within the law

not deciding whether a law is constitutional

instead review would check every law that gets passed and has ultimate veto power

instead of execs

oversight/review/whatever branch

execs would stick to setting policy direction, managing execution of infrastructure projects, enforcing law and that sort of thing

maybe a 4th branch actually

still super small

still super small

ComradeDakayonnano

yeah

that sounds like it could work

@sjdubya

removing veto power from exec removes them from legislative process altogether

ComradeDakayonnano

I think the highest court, or at least one of the higher courts should have a say in constitutionality

but instead of just shutting a law down

it could then be sent to referrendum

@sjdubya

idk i think the highest court should just be the final appeals stop for cases

nothing more special

ComradeDakayonnano

although if it is contestable to go as far as the highest court then it must be in enough of a legal gray zone that it has some constitutional basis

@sjdubya

not necessarily

in fact most cases in the supreme court are just debating the facts of the case

with nothing to do with constitutionality

it's just a final appeals stop

a "buck stops here"

ComradeDakayonnano

tbh, I'm ok with whatever decision we arrive on, as long as we dont let the judicial branch just give itself powers

@sjdubya

oh of course; in fact we limit it

ComradeDakayonnano

and on that note, its time for me to sleep. I gotta travel in the morning

good luck comrades

@sjdubya