Eleanor Hall reported this story on Thursday, June 15, 2017 12:50:00

ELEANOR HALL: Are governments using the threat of terrorism as a pretext to spy on their citizens?



That's certainly the view of the United Nation's Privacy rapporteur, who is calling for a treaty to regulate government surveillance of citizens.



Professor Joe Cannataci was appointed as the UN's first Special Rapporteur on the Right to Privacy in 2015 and he joined me from Brussels earlier.



Professor Cannataci, welcome to The World Today.



JOE CANNATACI: Thank you very much. Thank you for your invitation.



ELEANOR HALL: As the UN Special Rapporteur you've been investigating the challenges to privacy around the world. Is there any country that stands out as being particularly problematic?



JOE CANNATACI: I worry about all those countries which have the ability to intercept communications to store communications, to carry this out on a massive scale and which don't have the adequate authorisation procedures to do so from a person or a group of persons who have the same security of tenure as judges.



Any country which falls into that definition I am worried about.



ELEANOR HALL: Well, we've seen Edward Snowden of course, expose the US surveillance of its citizens. Are there other countries in that category?



JOE CANNATACI: The United States has actually since the time of Edward Snowden tried to tighten up things and introduce a number of improvements and its oversight mechanism is not amongst the weakest actually in the world governments which have the technical ability to intercept and monitor communications should also have the safeguards in place to make sure that they carried out properly targeted surveillance and they do not place the rest of the population at risk through mass surveillance because once you carry out mass surveillance, it's a honey-pot basically. You are inviting people to come in.



ELEANOR HALL: How much of the erosion in our privacy over recent years though is simply individuals giving up their own rights in exchange for more and more clever technology?



JOE CANNATACI: Convenience is certainly something which is very important and something which has motivated people to actually allow more access to their data because every time that they are using the technology, every time they are online, every time they access their mobile phone, they're leaving tiny electronic fingerprints and footprints all over the place.



The point is though you did say are they giving up in exchange for, the point is: do they know that they are giving it up, right? Did they know, are citizens aware and we find from research all around the world that citizens are not necessarily aware to the extent to which that they are giving up their privacy.



I suspect one has to go through a proper awareness campaign and proper information of the citizens before you can say that they are doing this willingly.



ELEANOR HALL: Has government surveillance increased across the board with the increase in terrorism concerns?



JOE CANNATACI: Well, it has actually increased even without terrorism concerns. There has been a sense of I can therefore I will but yes, terrorism is a wonderful pretext too.



I'm not saying that terrorism should be countered, far from it. It is a serious threat but actually what we have seen is an increase in surveillance one, whether or not it is connected to terrorism depends on the country you are looking at and secondly, what you do have also is that the surveillance is not necessarily being effective so we have to have some countries including the United Kingdom, including France which have introduced quite draconian laws and quite privacy intrusive laws but where the attacks are still being carried out because there seems to be an over reliance on electronic surveillance and an under reliance on putting enough warm bodies in the street.



ELEANOR HALL: Governments do face a difficult balance act though - the privacy of citizens versus their safety. You've assessed the situation here in Australia. What's your view of the data retention laws by our government?







JOE CANNATACI: You know, they came in the wake of Europe having ditched most of its data retention laws after they were declared disproportionate. I think, if you are referring to the current discussion on the telecommunications act, I am rather concerned that not only do they duplicate things with the 2015 act but also the oversight of such activities is not as well regulated.



Secondly, I am reassured by Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull having announced that the Australian Government is not seeking back doors to encryption so I am now waiting to find out exactly what it is they are seeking.



ELEANOR HALL: Now you're calling for a treaty on privacy. What would its terms be?



JOE CANNATACI: The first part we would have to say is that there already exists a treaty on privacy and that is a treaty which is increasingly signed by people from outside Europe and that deals with data protection.



The treaty that I am suggesting that governments consider deals with government surveillance. At this moment in time cyberspace only has one piece of law, international law governing it and that only deals with cybercrime. There isn't anything which deals with surveillance and there isn't anything which deals with surveillance which cross borders and that is the piece of law that I am suggesting that governments look at because surveillance has become a big issue and government surveillance has become a very big issue and people are concerned about that.



ELEANOR HALL: So what response have you had from government leaders so far?



JOE CANNATACI: Well, they've been quite quiet about it so far but let's not get too worried about that for the time being because it's still early days.



The discussion should take an upward turn towards the end of the year when the first draft would be published then early next year, 2018, I expect to see much more public discussion about the matter when the draft goes properly public.



So, let's give governments some time. They haven't seen the proposals yet because we've started with everybody else and we're only going to go to governments at the very end when the provisions of such a treaty are properly debated by everybody else as to the effects.



ELEANOR HALL: Professor Cannataci, I hope you'll join us again then to discuss your progress. Thanks so much for joining The World Today.



JOE CANNATACI: Thank you very much for your questions. Do have a nice day.



ELEANOR HALL: And that's the United Nation's Privacy rapporteur, Joe Cannataci. He was speaking to me from Brussels.