michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Nearly a decade before Jeffrey Epstein was arrested for predatory activities with dozens of young girls, two sisters came forward with their story of being lured in by Epstein and his girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now that he’s gone, the sisters are wrestling with what might have happened if someone had listened. My colleague Mike Baker spoke with them and shared their story with Natalie Kitroeff. It’s Monday, August 26.

mike baker Alright, just pulling up here to Maria Farmer’s house. I think this is the right one. Looks like it is. maria farmer Hey, Mike. mike baker Hey, Maria. Hi.

mike baker

So for Maria Farmer, her story really begins in the spring of 1995. She really was someone who was growing into the art world in New York. She’s already sort of developing a style that is sort of a voyeuristic style. She’s exploring with a lot of nude artwork, a lot of paintings of girls sort of in their transition through puberty. And by the spring of ‘95, she’s already starting to sell some of her pieces. She ends up in this graduation gallery event, where students are there to really showcase the work that they’ve been doing, and to potentially sell some of them. And one of the paintings she has at this graduation event is inspired, she says, by Edgar Degas’s famous piece that’s sometimes known as “The Rape.” And at the time she’s in the process of selling it, one of the leaders of the art institute comes over and introduced her to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and as she recalls, basically told her, you got to sell this painting to them. You know, they’re big supporters of us. They can be big supporters of you. They want this painting, and so you’re going to sell it to them.

natalie kitroeff

And so where does their relationship go from there?

maria farmer He said, do you have a dad? And I said, that’s an odd question. Of course I do, but my parents are divorced. And he asked me to describe my history. And I said, I grew up extremely wealthy. And unfortunately, at age 16, my dad left, and my mom never went after him. So we are, you know, pretty — we’re struggling.

mike baker

It was soon after that Maria sort of gets offered a job with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, at first, it’s a job in the art world still, in which she’s supposed to be collecting artwork or purchasing artwork on his behalf. And the job evolves over time to a point where she’s serving as a doorman, essentially, in his New York City townhouse.

maria farmer There were people coming and going constantly. And he said, you know, you can help manage them.

mike baker

She remembers sort of like, leaders in the business and finance world coming to the townhouse.

maria farmer And you can just let them all sign in, and then they can go up the stairs. So that’s what I did. I sat at this big, round table.

mike baker

She remembers Maxwell frantically preparing for a visit. She doesn’t remember Bill Clinton actually showing up, but remembers sort of the rush to prepare the house for that potential visit. And then she remembers seeing Donald Trump in Epstein’s office one night.

maria farmer Epstein called me to go there, and it was evening, so everybody had left the office. And I’m sitting there in a running outfit. And my legs were exposed, because I was a runner and had on running shorts. And Trump comes into the office, doesn’t say anything to me, looks at me and kind of snickers and stares at my legs. And Epstein comes out at about that time, and Epstein looks at him and goes, no, no. She’s not here for you. That’s what happened.

mike baker

The other thing she talks about is getting to know Ghislaine Maxwell, who is sort of being described as Jeffrey Epstein’s wife at the time.

maria farmer She was the most charming, most eloquent — just she was the delight —

mike baker

Maria remembers Ghislaine as just really someone who was the companion there of Jeffrey Epstein, offered this level of assurance that what was going on in the townhouse was on the up and up. There would be young girls or women coming through that she noticed. She says she would ask Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, what are these girls, young women doing here? Some of them are wearing their school uniforms. What’s this all about? They’d go upstairs to apparently where Jeffrey Epstein was at the time. And the response she got was basically, well, they’re here to try out for Victoria’s Secret modeling gigs. So that’s their purpose for being here.

mike baker And so how many — I mean, how many girls are we talking about that are coming in for these supposed modeling — maria farmer Hundreds. Hundreds. Hundreds. Hundreds. mike baker Do you have a sense of their age? maria farmer 13, 14, 15. mike baker I’m just trying to understand, though, how much is recruiting just for Jeffrey, and how much is recruiting supposedly for Victoria’s Secret, or are they all one and the same? And how would they be one and the same? maria farmer Well, I was told — at the time I still believed all of these girls were coming for Victoria’s Secret. I thought she was going out and getting models. She told me that was her position, to go and get models.

mike baker

It made sense that in that world, that Ghislaine Maxwell would have some sort of role herself. And so Maria remembered a bunch of times when Ghislaine and her would be out of the house, and Ghislaine would be looking for getting girls to bring to Jeffrey. I’ve got to go get girls for Jeffrey, is what Maria remembered Ghislaine saying.

maria farmer Literally, this is how cowboy they were. They would be driving. They had a driver, and he would be driving along, and Ghislaine would say, “Get that girl.” And they’d stop, and she’d run out and get the girl and talk to her.

natalie kitroeff

Wow. And at any point does Maria begin to question some of this behavior?

mike baker

I think at that point she’s feeling a little weird about it. Maria’s spending a lot of time with Ghislaine, but she’s also finding Ghislaine to be quite the volatile person. Jeffrey, on the other hand, is much more of a steady force of friendliness in the house. She remembers him as being sort of the good cop. And one of the ways he was kind of doing that was in taking an interest in Maria’s younger sister. Her younger sister Annie was 16 years old at the time, living in Arizona. And she was talking about going to college. And Epstein starts talking to Maria about ways that he might be able to help. So to December 1995 now, and one thing he suggests is bringing Annie, the younger sister, up from Arizona to New York.

annie farmer When I was looking, trying to refresh my memory about this time, I came across this journal entry.

mike baker

Annie has this journal from that time period. It’s a spiral journal with a picture of two sisters on the front.

annie farmer Actually, this one doesn’t have — it doesn’t have a date on it. But it says, I’m so excited. Maria’s boss bought me a ticket to come out and see her. It has been almost a year. He is very wealthy and might help me get into or pay for college. I don’t want to get my hopes up, because I hate disappointment. But it would be really cool if it happened. And even if it doesn’t, it’s so great I get to go see her. maria farmer That’s a good one. annie farmer So it’s just, like, a short — mike baker Sure, yeah. annie farmer — colored pencil. mike baker Interesting. annie farmer But that was my understanding. Right?

natalie kitroeff

So what happens when Annie gets to New York?

annie farmer And so then I go on this trip. And so I fly in — I don’t know the exact date, but late December. I’m there for New Year’s, and I fly home, like, January 6, because I have another entry after that. Part of the trip was that he was going to be — I knew he had purchased tickets for us to go to “Phantom of the Opera,” which was, you know — this was the ‘90s. I’m so excited to see “Phantom of the Opera.” I’ve been listening to the soundtrack.

mike baker

They have a limo come pick them up and take them up to Jeffrey Epstein’s residence at the time. He’s also given Maria some money so that Annie can get a dress. They describe this sort of scene in Jeffrey Epstein’s residence where, you know, he’s pouring champagne, but he’s really relaxed, as someone who always wear sweatpants. And they have a conversation about how U.C.L.A. is a great school, and that’s an option. And they’re just sort of talking about things ahead. And then they go off to see “Phantom of the Opera.”

natalie kitroeff

So for a 16-year-old, this kind of weekend in New York — it must just seem pretty fairytale-like.

mike baker

Yeah. I think this is a whole new experience for her. And there’s some parts that are getting a bit unusual.

annie farmer The only other time that I interacted with him was he had made arrangements for us to go see a movie. And so we went to go see — I believe it was “12 Monkeys,” or the Brad Pitt film. maria farmer Yeah, with Brad Pitt. annie farmer That was creepy. My memory was that he was sitting sort of in between my sister and I. Basically, the movie starts. And at some point he starts to kind of, you know, reach out to hold my hand. And then he sort of started kind of caressing it. And then at some point he would touch my shoe and kind of rub my foot and things like that.

mike baker

She’s trying to process during the movie — what is happening here, is this normal?

annie farmer When Maria would sort of turn or engage in conversation or something, then he’d drop my hand or stop doing that to my foot, which was — because I felt so uncomfortable, but then I was also trying to go back and forth in my mind between whether or not — is this weird? I mean, it feels weird to me. But maybe he’s kind of fatherly towards me? But that doesn’t jibe, obviously, with the idea that he was keeping it from Maria in some way by shielding her so she couldn’t see it.

mike baker

And so this is something she’s really sort of struggling to process. She doesn’t want to mess anything up between her sister and her boss.

mike baker So did you share that with Maria at all? annie farmer No. No. And so that — maria farmer No. I would have died. I would have died. I’m going to be really clear on this. Somebody touching my baby sister? I would have slapped him. You know, I — no. No, no. Uh-uh. No way. mike baker Yeah. I’d be interested in hearing that journal entry.

[music]

mike baker

So after she gets back from New York, Annie spends a little bit of time writing in her journal.

annie farmer It says, the best night was when Maria and I saw “Phantom of the Opera.” We went to Jeffrey Epstein’s —

mike baker

In the first entry, she’s really sort of giving a glowing review of what had happened there, and talking about the chance to go see “Phantom” —

annie farmer I found him down to earth and easy to talk to. I thanked him so much for the trip, et cetera.

mike baker

— and just how magical the overall experience was. And then later on, sort of at the end of January, she comes back to the journal and talks a little more.

annie farmer It was one of those things that just gave me a weird feeling, but wasn’t that weird and probably normal.

mike baker

You can pretty clearly see that she’s still struggling to process what had happened in that movie theater.

annie farmer Oh, well. I decided it was no big deal. It just made me mad, because he was being so amazing, helping me with college. He’s so nice and so generous with everyone. And I just didn’t want to have any weird feelings about it. And then I said, I didn’t/couldn’t say anything to Maria about it, because she worships him. And it would just create problems. I wouldn’t — I wouldn’t tell anyone else about it because it is not a big deal. And I didn’t want to portray him in a bad light. I really don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s like, I’m trying so hard to convince myself, you know? mike baker Yeah. annie farmer I think he’s just a relaxed guy, and maybe he likes to flirt or is being fatherly or something. I don’t know. This sounds like me trying to justify him doing something weird, but it isn’t.

[music]

annie farmer And then I jump immediately into — right now, my big concern is what am I going to do this summer? There’s so many things to do and amazing places to go. I’m really thinking about something in Africa. It’d be incredible.

natalie kitroeff

So what happens after Annie goes home?

mike baker

The relationship kind of continues. Maria and Annie’s mother recall that Jeffrey Epstein would call down sometimes to Arizona, you know, check in on them, continue the conversation about her college. And he was talking about the idea of sending Annie on maybe an international trip of some sort. In anticipation of doing that kind of international trip, he was telling Annie’s mom, why don’t you have her come out to New Mexico? I’ve got a ranch in New Mexico.

annie farmer The way it was discussed with my mother was that they were going to — he was doing this generous thing for other students, as well, of sponsoring travel.

mike baker

In talking to their mom, she remembers that Jeffrey told her that Ghislaine was going to be there to host, that she was going to be the one sort of making sure that all was going O.K. And so that seemed acceptable to her.

annie farmer The thing I remember about landing was that it was the first time — I think the only time in my life there was a man standing with my name on a sign waiting for me at the airport. And so they’re not there. They just have this guy that’s come to pick me up and drives me out to the ranch.

mike baker

And pretty soon she realizes that there are no other students there. She is the only one. It’s her and Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell together.

annie farmer Ghislaine was exactly as Maria described, very charming from the get-go. She made you feel special. She’s like, oh, let’s pick out some — I’ve got some henna to dye my hair with. They took me to buy cowboy boots at a Western store in town. And they made a big thing of me, you know, trying on all these boots. And I thought, oh, my gosh. These must be really nice, because were, like, $100. So kind of this female bonding experience. maria farmer Yeah.

mike baker

But then pretty quickly, things start taking progressively more unusual turns.

annie farmer That’s when Ghislaine gave me a lesson in rubbing Epstein’s feet, and was like, you know, he really loves to get foot massages. And this is something it’d be good for you to want him to do. But it was uncomfortable, but they had this very casual way of making jokes and stuff. And so —

mike baker

They’re there together. Ghislaine’s massaging one foot, Annie’s massaging the other.

annie farmer I remember her being like, O.K., you pull his toe back.

mike baker

Ghislaine’s giving pointers about how to perform it.

annie farmer So then there was two other kind of encounters that stand out in my mind.

mike baker

They go to another movie, this time, “Primal Fear.” And Jeffrey Epstein sort of performs another round of petting touches in the theater. And then one morning, she remembers waking up in the house.

annie farmer I remember I was in this bed with kind of a duvet and a down comforter.

mike baker

And Jeffrey Epstein coming into the room —

annie farmer He comes towards the bed and is like, I want to cuddle. And again, in this way that’s kind of jokey, but also kind of terrifying to me. Because I’m like, what do you mean you want to cuddle? You know?

mike baker

And so he climbs into bed with Annie. And remember, she’s 16 years old at this point.

annie farmer He is kind of spooning me. He touches me, but I think I was freaked out. And I was trying to think of an excuse to get myself out of that situation as quickly as possible. And so I’m like, oh, I need to go to the bathroom, and got up and got out of the bed. mike baker Do you remember where Maxwell was? I mean, had you guys heard her that morning? annie farmer She wasn’t — I felt like she was aware of it. So again, there was this safety in that the door was open. And so I felt like she could have easily been aware of what he was doing and fine with it.

mike baker

Annie then remembers Ghislaine repeatedly asked whether —

annie farmer Have you ever gotten a massage?

mike baker

— Annie wanted a massage.

annie farmer I’m very skilled in massage, right, and so I want to make sure you get a massage. mike baker She said that she was very — annie farmer She was skilled in massage. Yeah.

mike baker

And she eventually relents.

annie farmer But I had never had a professional massage before. So I didn’t know what really was involved in that. And so she said that I would take off my clothes and lay under the sheet.

mike baker

Ghislaine performs the massage.

annie farmer She had me, you know, flip over to my back. And then she pulled the sheet down so that my breasts were exposed.

mike baker

And she remembers how Ghislaine then went on to massage her chest.

annie farmer Like it just — this feels weird. This feels uncomfortable. I don’t think this is probably right, but I don’t know.

mike baker

And all this time, she’s struggling to figure out what’s going on. Jeffery Epstein, she says, wasn’t participating in the massage. But she has this sense that he’s in the area, that the doors are open, it’s kind of an open area where she’s getting the massage.

annie farmer I could feel his presence, like, oh, I’m sure he can see me from where he is.

[music]

natalie kitroeff

And she’s — I mean, she’s isolated in New Mexico with these two people. It’s not really like she has the power to stop this. Right?

mike baker

No, that’s true. And at the same time, she’s still — she has an older sister who works for these people. And she’s still considering the possibility of this international trip, and college, and that potential for support that would be a big help for her future. And she’s there and not wanting to be disruptive or raising alarms in a way that would complicate her life or her sister’s life.

annie farmer And again, I never thought of Maria being in danger. I never thought like, oh, this is something that he’s doing to me. And maybe that means that he could do something weird to Maria. I couldn’t — I didn’t put those pieces together.

natalie kitroeff

So what happens after the trip?

mike baker

She’s getting ready for prom. She’s about to go on that international trip. She ends up going. Meanwhile, her sister Maria is back in New York, progressing in her art career. She’s working on an art project at the time.

maria farmer And they said, listen, you can do an artist-in-residency. We would love to offer you this house.

mike baker

Jeffrey Epstein actually offers that she can use his Ohio estate to do some of that art, to have a place where she can have space and time and peace to work on her project. And so Annie’s off in Thailand, thanks to Jeffrey Epstein. Maria is now in Ohio, thanks to Jeffrey Epstein. She was spending weeks there. So Maria remembers Ghislaine and Jeffrey coming to visit in Ohio.

maria farmer And I thought, these people really are becoming almost like family. This is amazing. Right? And I felt the most comfortable I’d been with them the whole time.

mike baker

But it was really that same day, that night, that things took a really dark turn.

maria farmer And it was probably 9 o’clock at night.

mike baker

Maria remembers Ghislaine coming to ask her —

maria farmer She said, oh, Jeffrey wants a foot rub, foot massage. And I thought —

mike baker

— if she could give Jeffrey Epstein a foot massage.

maria farmer All of a sudden I was like, something’s wrong. You know? They’ve never asked me for anything like this. And —

mike baker

And at first she’s like, no. She kind of sees it as a degrading request for someone who’s there for the purpose of doing art.

maria farmer And it’s like, we were all good friends. And then I’d come back, and I was suddenly a servant.

mike baker

But, you know, she remembers Ghislaine sort of persisting. And then she’s like, O.K., I’ll do it. She goes into the bedroom where Jeffrey is.

maria farmer And so he said, just sit down right here. And I felt so uncomfortable, like, why am I sitting on a bed with my employer? And I asked, I remember, I said, what are you watching? This is funny. What are you watching?

mike baker

He’s there watching a PBS show about math, she remembers.

maria farmer And Ghislaine said, Jeffrey’s very smart. This is a show about math. [LAUGHS] And I remember it was just so, like, I’m not 13, so I knew —

mike baker

And at that point, Maria says Ghislaine joined her on the other side. So now she’s between Jeffrey and Ghislaine.

maria farmer And he just immediately just starts putting his hand on my breasts. And he’s —

mike baker

They start groping her.

maria farmer Then she started doing the same thing.

mike baker

It was Jeffrey and Ghislaine together, almost mirroring each other —

natalie kitroeff

Ugh.

mike baker

— commenting on her features, twisting her nipples to the point that later they were bruised. She’s fearing, believing that she’s about to be raped. And Maria has this sort of realization in that moment.

maria farmer The main thing I remember from lying there is, where is Annie? What happened to Annie? Was Annie hurt? Was Annie hurt? Was Annie hurt?

natalie kitroeff

So in this moment, Maria is putting all the pieces together.

mike baker

Right. I think there’s this big moment of clarity for her that recasts her whole relationship with Jeffrey and Ghislaine. Perhaps all along, Jeffrey Epstein was only interested in her artwork because she focused primarily on adolescent girls. She’s wondering about that. She’s struggling to process everything that had happened.

maria farmer And I was crying a little bit, so I kind of blew my cover. They knew then that something was wrong. So I went to my room. And they knew I wasn’t very happy. But I was trying to act like I was, that I was fine, and play it off. So I went in the room, and I blocked everything, and I start calling people right away. And I called everyone I knew in New York to let them know that I might be killed or something. Because Ghislaine kept trying to talk to me, and she was screaming at me. So then that morning —

[music]

mike baker

The following morning, Jeffrey and Ghislaine leave the property. She hears them leave while she’s still barricaded in this room. And Maria’s father drives up from Kentucky to get her out of the house.

michael barbaro

After she left Epstein’s house, Maria Farmer said Ghislaine Maxwell called her, warning that she planned to destroy all of the art that Maria had left at Epstein’s house.

maria farmer Ghislaine called and said, listen. We’re going to burn all your art. And I just want you to know that anything you ever make will be burned. Your career is burned. You are done. I said, O.K., and I hung up. So I go to the 6th Precinct.

michael barbaro

Soon after, Maria said she contacted several law enforcement agencies, including the New York City Police Department, which referred her to other agencies, including the F.B.I. The Times has obtained the N.Y.P.D. police report. The F.B.I. has declined to comment. A few years later, Maria and Annie told their story to Vanity Fair magazine, which was writing a profile of Epstein. But when the story eventually ran, it made no mention of either the sisters or their allegations. Maria says she left New York and the art world, fearing for her safety. She says it wasn’t until years later, in 2006, when the F.B.I. knocked on her door, that she felt hope that Epstein might finally be held accountable. We’ll be right back.

[music]

natalie kitroeff

This experience has obviously cost the sisters so much.

mike baker

Yeah. For Annie, it’s — Annie is doing well. She went on to get her Ph.D. She has her practice in psychotherapy now. She seems to have come out of it O.K. There’s still struggles. There’s still this constant issue that she has to deal with in her life. For Maria, this cost her a lot more.

maria farmer Yeah. There are different kinds of rape. You know what I mean? I was raped of my success, and then my sanity for my sister. I’m always been worried about her since. That’s why I went to therapy for six years, because I was convinced someone was going to harm her after that happened. She became a therapist because of it. I mean, think about it. It really screwed us up. I stopped painting.

mike baker

So Maria has a lot of trouble now listening to these stories of more women coming forward. She looks back at 1996, when she first went to law enforcement to talk about Jeffrey Epstein, as a moment that could have been a turning point.

maria farmer And I don’t know why none of the other adults told the truth. Why is it all my responsibility? Why did I have to do it all? And why did I get punished for it, when all these people who had power and money and connections could have actually made a difference?

mike baker

She sees these women coming forward now that have stories in the subsequent years that Jeffrey Epstein had victimized people over and over again. She talked in particular about Jennifer Araoz, who came forward in recent weeks to tell her story of being a teenager and being raped by Jeffrey Epstein in the early 2000s.

maria farmer I see Annie in her. I see Annie in her. It scares me that she could have been raped.

natalie kitroeff

And now Epstein’s dead. He committed suicide in jail, and the sisters are never going to get any kind of accountability.

mike baker

Epstein’s death was something that was really another immense disappointment for them.

mike baker What were the emotions you were going through when you — in those immediate moments after hearing his death? maria farmer Shock and anger.

mike baker

At the same time, Maria has a very just complicated view of the whole thing.

maria farmer I’m not angry at him anymore. I mean, as soon as he died, my anger for him left. But the main thing is right after it hit me, the next day, all I could do was cry. And I actually grieved for him, because I had respect for him. To think of him being on the floor, that’s just really — it kind of broke my heart. So I found myself kind of pitying him, which is so confusing. Because this is this person who, all my life, I’ve thought, O.K., he’s my enemy. And once he’s in prison, everything’s going to be O.K.

mike baker

He was a sick man. And she felt sympathy for him in those last days in jail, a man she had looked up to at some point, and feels like she wished he had gotten help at some point along the way.

maria farmer I’m sorry to keep you. mike baker You don’t have anything to apologize for, Maria. I really appreciate it. maria farmer [CRYING] Thank you. mike baker And, you know, you’re welcome call me anytime. maria farmer Thank you. mike baker O.K.? Thank you. maria farmer You’re welcome. mike baker We’ll talk to you soon. maria farmer O.K. mike baker Again, I’m around in the morning. So feel free to — feel free to call. maria farmer O.K. Thank you. I’m going to go swimming. Thank you so much. mike baker All right. Thank you, Maria. maria farmer O.K. It was nice meeting you, Mike. mike baker Yeah. Nice to meet you, too. maria farmer I’m sorry. I just can’t be anybody but who I am. O.K. mike baker I appreciate it. maria farmer Thank you. mike baker All right. Bye. [EXHALES]

[music]

natalie kitroeff

Mike, thank you so much.

mike baker

Thank you.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording Do you have second thoughts on escalating the trade war with China? archived recording (donald trump) Yeah, sure. Why not? Might as well. Might as well. archived recording Do you have second thoughts about escalating the war with China? archived recording (donald trump) I have second thoughts about everything.

michael barbaro

On Sunday, during the G7 economic summit, President Trump suggested that he regretted his trade war with China and planned to back away from his most recent threats to escalate it. But he then reversed course a few hours later, saying through his press secretary that his only regret was not imposing higher tariffs on China.

archived recording (boris johnson) I just want to say, I actually congratulate the president on everything that the American economy is achieving. And it’s fantastic to see that.

michael barbaro

During the summit, the new prime minister of Britain, Boris Johnson, gently scolded Trump for the trade war, and called on the president to dial back the battle.

archived recording (boris johnson) Just to register the faint, sheep-like note of our view on the trade war. We in favor of trade peace on the whole, and dialing it down if we can.

michael barbaro