michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Three months ago, a recording appeared on an obscure website for whistleblowers in the Mormon community. Today: “The Daily”‘s Annie Brown talks to reporter Liz Harris about the story that recording told. It’s Friday, May 24.

archived recording [KNOCKING ON DOOR] archived recording (sean escobar) Hi. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Hi. archived recording (sean escobar) How are you? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) I’m good. archived recording (sean escobar) Good. This is Crystal. Crystal, Sterling. archived recording (crystal) Nice to meet you. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, come on in, Sterling. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Thank you. I found you. Your directions were great. archived recording (sean escobar) I mean, yeah, I think —

elizabeth harris

I’m going to tell you about this recording I have. It’s two men sitting at a dining room table, talking for the first time in 30 years.

archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, without the directions, good luck for you.

elizabeth harris

And it is unlike anything I’ve ever heard.

archived recording (sean escobar) — not the funnest circumstances to meet under. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) No but you know what, I so admire you courage in doing this. I can’t tell you how brave I think you are to follow through on this. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, I have wanted to.

elizabeth harris

I’ve been covering stories like this for the last several years — so, stories about abuse, about #MeToo, and I’ve written about perpetrators and about victims. But what I’ve never seen is two people — those two people in the same room, trying to talk about it.

archived recording (sean escobar) Every day of the weekend, and all weekend, I just felt sick. Like, why am I doing this to myself? You know, is it really necessary to do this to myself? But it just keeps resurfacing for me. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Sure. archived recording (sean escobar) And I don’t want —

elizabeth harris

Through this, I encountered questions I had never seen answered before.

archived recording (sean escobar) For my whole life, you know, I’ve wondered. There’s a lot of things I’ve wondered. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Sure.

elizabeth harris

If you had the opportunity to confront your abuser, what would you say?

archived recording (sean escobar) It kind of made my childhood, from that point forward, it just changed everything for me. You know what I mean? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) I’m so sorry. archived recording (sean escobar) Just not so blissful anymore.

elizabeth harris

And then if you had that interaction on tape, what would you do with it?

[music]

annie brown

Tell me about the man who made this recording.

elizabeth harris

Sean Escobar grew up in a Mormon community in Utah. His father converted as a young adult, married his mother. They moved to Salt Lake City to raise their four kids.

sean escobar I grew up in Holladay, Utah, which is just a little community there, right in the heart of Salt Lake City.

elizabeth harris

Sean found going to church kind of boring, but everyone in his world was Mormon — his parents’ friends, the kids he played with, everyone.

sean escobar So I was always with the local neighborhood boys. There was about three or four of us that did everything together. Two of those kids happened to be the two youngest sons of the Van Wagenen family.

elizabeth harris

Now, the Van Wagenens had six kids.

sean escobar They had a cool rope swing that would hang from a great, big, giant tree. And I remember they had a trampoline. And we would jump on the trampoline while holding this great, big, giant rope swing. And then you would pick up your feet and swing far, far away from the tramp, and land in that great, big pile of leaves. You know, our moms would be telling us it was time to shut it down, and we wouldn’t want to. And I remember when my mom couldn’t get me to come in and take a bath because it was just too much fun.

elizabeth harris

Sean loved playing with all the kids. He loved the mom. He thought she was the sweetest woman in the world. He was close to all of them, except the dad, Sterling Van Wagenen.

sean escobar Sterling, the father, was very distant. In fact, I don’t really ever even remember having a conversation with him or him expressing any interest in me whatsoever.

elizabeth harris

Sterling was a big deal in their world. He had co-founded the Sundance Film Festival. A movie he had produced had won an Oscar. He had achieved a level of success that the community was proud of.

sean escobar You know, he was kind of like the intellectual type, genius-type guy. And he had a lot of esteem and respect. But he just appeared as though he was busy all the time. elizabeth harris Sean, I want you to tell me about the night it happened. But why don’t we start earlier that day. sean escobar We were playing all day, me and the Van Wagenen children. And I think probably they invited me to have a sleepover that night. And I could never get enough of playing with those guys, so I was probably excited to sleep over and not have that fun end. And yeah, we pop on a movie, and we were all just watching a movie in the basement. We watched a lot of movies down there. Obviously, with Sterling being in the film industry, he had this massive collection of movies. And, well, I just — we all dozed off. We all fell asleep watching a movie in the basement. I was on the couch that was facing the fireplace. And I woke up in the night. To me, it just felt like the middle of the night. I woke up, and there was an adult hand down my pants. And I froze. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know who it was, either. And I instinctively thought to myself, I should pretend I’m going to wake up, and maybe they’ll stop. So I started to stir, and the person, they pulled their hand out. And I was frozen — completely frozen, just pretending that I was sleeping there. And then a few minutes later, the hand was back down my pants again. And again, I just stirred, like, I’m waking up now. And the hand retreated once again. The third time, I sat up. And there was Sterling Van Wagenen. He had turned on a black-and-white movie. There was no sound. And when I sat up and looked at him, he looked at the TV. He didn’t look at me. He held the remote controller in his left hand, and pretended that he was actually watching the TV standing up. elizabeth harris Hmm. Were you confused? Or did you know what was going on? I mean, what did you think was happening to you? sean escobar I think I was extremely confused. I made a run for the bathroom. I actually ran from around the couch into the bathroom, and I locked myself into that bathroom. And I was scared out of my mind. I remember he came to the door repeatedly, three or four times, trying to coax me out of the bathroom, telling me it was time to come out now. And I just kept on telling him that I was very sick, and I couldn’t come out because I was very sick. And at that point, he disappeared and never came back. And I just stayed in that bathroom. I stayed in the bathroom all night. And I was sitting on, like, a linoleum floor. It was hard. It was uncomfortable, and I couldn’t sleep. And there was a cat in there. A big orange cat got locked in there with me. And I was just petting that cat all night. elizabeth harris And around how old are you at this point? sean escobar I had just turned 13 maybe a week or two before. elizabeth harris O.K. So what happens the next day? sean escobar My mom came and got me, and we went through a drive-through to get breakfast. And right after my mom ordered the breakfast sandwich, I told her — I was in the back seat, and I told her what had happened to me. elizabeth harris And what did she say? sean escobar She looked scared. I mean, she looked really frightened. She just said, O.K., you’re staying with me today, and took me to my dad’s place of work, and I stayed there at the office with them the rest of that day. I remember because I was sitting there in the secretary desk, just bored, and probably just drawing, and Sterling walked in. And he said, where is your mom and dad? And I pointed to the warehouse. And then as soon as he was gone, I ran to the back of the office. There was a room, and I hid under a desk. Gosh, it’s almost embarrassing how scared I was. Because I was kind of like an athletic — you know, a pretty tough kid. And I was so scared.

annie brown

And what did Sean’s parents decide to do about this?

elizabeth harris

Sean’s parents decide that instead of going to the police or pressing charges, they’re going to go to the church and let the church handle it.

sean escobar That’s what we’re told as members of the Mormon church. And it’s one of the things that’s — it’s almost like an unspoken rule. You let the church handle such things.

elizabeth harris

They’re really concerned about protecting his identity, and what might happen if any of this became public. And the church wants to handle it itself.

sean escobar They were just assuring me that is was getting taken care of. elizabeth harris I see. And how did your life change after that? sean escobar I became very afraid of the dark, and very afraid of being alone, and very suspicious of men. I began to sleep with a 10-inch hunting knife at my side at all times, and keep it under my pillow or right there under my mattress. I became very reclusive. I did not want to go to other people’s houses. I always liked to be home, all the time. And even if I did go to another friend’s house, I would be thinking about home and feeling desperate to get home, and oftentimes I would even call my mom. And mom and I kind of had this secret code, where she knew why I was calling is because I needed to come home. And I would call her, and she would whisper, do you want to come home? And I would say yes, and then she would come get me, and I would tell my friends and their parents that, oh, I’m sorry, I can’t be here, my parents need me at home.

[music]

elizabeth harris

Through his teenage years and as a young adult, this is all still very much a part of him. Then he gets married, he has kids, and it really manifests itself in how he raises his children.

sean escobar It actually — I think it reached unhealthy levels. I am so unbelievably protective of my children. In fact, I go to great measures always to ensure that my children are never alone with men, that they’re never at a friend’s house alone with the father.

elizabeth harris

Like, he’ll call ahead at playdates, and make sure that the mom’s going to be home the whole time. And if she’s planning on going out for groceries and leaving dad at home, then no playdate — playdate’s off.

sean escobar I don’t allow sleepovers, not ever. My kids have never. I never allow them to have male teachers. If my kids were ever assigned male teachers, I have gone to meet with the principal and they would say, we don’t discriminate. And I said, well, I was sexually abused as a child, and if you don’t get me a different teacher, I will remove my kid from school. elizabeth harris Does it work? sean escobar Yeah. Yeah. I always got my way. elizabeth harris And do your kids notice this kind of fear you have? sean escobar Oh, absolutely, yeah. They say I’m too strict. But if I can get my kids to 18 years old without being sexually abused, I will have given them a gift. That’s the way I look at it.

[music]

elizabeth harris And Sterling himself, would you ever think about him as an adult? sean escobar All the time, all the time. I remember when the internet came around, I would frequently Google the name Sterling Van Wagenen, wondering what was he working on in his profession as of late.

elizabeth harris

He sees that Sterling’s life has just moved on. He becomes a professor at Brigham Young University, which is, like, the Mormon university in the country. He becomes a professor at the University of Utah. And he has a role making movies for the church.

sean escobar I would read about him, yeah, frequently.

elizabeth harris

And then one day, in late 2017, Sean is doing what Sean does — he Googles Sterling — and he comes across an article in which Sterling is interviewed.

sean escobar He was interviewed in Asia. He was over there for some kind of a film festival, something of that nature. And he was asked about the Harvey Weinstein sex abuse scandal. They asked him what he thought of that. And his answer was, it is only the tip of the iceberg. When I read that, I thought, am I only the tip of the iceberg? Is my story only the tip of the iceberg? Was that foretelling? Was he foretelling that he also had many more victims? I was very taken aback by it. And I began to heavily wonder if his adult children were aware of what he’d done to me. And I wondered if he was allowed to be around his own grandchildren. You know, are they letting the grandchildren sleep over? Is he allowed access to them? I couldn’t get them out of my mind. It began to consume me, yes. And that’s when I reached out to his wife, January 2018, and I just said, I’m so sorry to bring this up, I don’t mean to dig up the past. Please tell me that he’s never been allowed to be around children, that provisions are in place. Please tell me that your adult children are aware of what happened to me so that they can ensure that nothing ever happens to their children. Just tell me that, and I will let this go, and we can just move on. elizabeth harris And what did she say? sean escobar I never got a response from her. I waited, and waited, and waited. And seven months later, I began to contact each of his adult children individually and inform them of what their father had done to me. elizabeth harris Mm-hmm. And what happened? sean escobar They were shocked. Some were angry, some were confused, some were very sad. And one of them was insistent that I meet with Sterling in an effort to get closure around the issue, so that he could assure me that there had never been any other victims before or after me. I didn’t feel the need to do that. It was the last thing I would ever want to do. But at the same time, I couldn’t get it out of my mind. I had to know if there was other victims. I had to know.

[music]

elizabeth harris

He comes up with a plan where he and his wife are going to meet Sterling at a house. It’s not Sterling’s house, it’s not Sean’s house, because Sean doesn’t want Sterling to know where he lives.

sean escobar I remember telling my wife, over and over, I don’t think I can do this. And she would say, well, then don’t, because there’s no reason you have to do this. Why don’t you just move on and let this go? And I just said, I can’t, I can’t. And then one day would lead to the next. And then the day came, and I remember by the time it was time to meet with him, my wife and I hired a babysitter, and we drove to this mutual location, a friend’s house.

elizabeth harris

And he decides he’s going to record the conversation.

sean escobar I thought, I better record this. For one, what if he confesses to other victims? archived recording [RUSTLING NOISE] sean escobar I put my phone in a potted plant there on the table. It had a microphone. It was like this little mic I got at Radio Shack. You just hook it to your phone, and then you kind of clip it there on one of the leaves of the potted plant, and put it on silent mode, and hope for all get out that it wouldn’t vibrate. elizabeth harris Yeah, that wouldn’t be good. sean escobar Yeah, that’s right. And — archived recording [KNOCKING AT DOOR] sean escobar — Sterling knocked on the door, and — archived recording (sean escobar) Hi. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Hi. sean escobar I answered the door. archived recording (sean escobar) Good, this is Crystal. Crystal, Sterling. archived recording (crystal) Nice to meet you. sean escobar And then there he was. He just looked very practical. He kind of had slouched shoulders, and kind of kept his head — looked down at the ground a little bit. archived recording (sean escobar) And you and I can — we can visit. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) That’s why we’re here, yeah. elizabeth harris And how did you feel when you saw him? sean escobar I had lots of anger over my teen years and my adult years, and thinking, this guy should pay a price. But then when I saw him, I didn’t feel any anger. elizabeth harris What did you feel? sean escobar Scared. I remember feeling powerless. I felt the same way then as I felt when I was 13. elizabeth harris Yeah.

[music]

elizabeth harris

Sean lets him in, and leads him into the dining room, and they’re sitting just a few feet apart at this dining room table. Sean’s wife is out of the room. She’s sitting on the stairs, nearby, listening. And Sean has, on the table in front of him, this red spiral notebook, filled with questions that he wants to ask.

archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, so anyway, I have some notes here. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Good, sure. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, because I what I did was, this morning, I woke up, and I thought, gosh, you know, I’m probably going to get all panicky and nervous, and not remember what it is that’s weighing on me.

annie brown

And how does the conversation start?

archived recording (sean escobar) I’ve always wanted to ask you what was going through your mind that night.

elizabeth harris

Well, it’s interesting. Actually, the first question that Sean asks him is about what was going on for Sterling that night.

archived recording (sean escobar) What was going on with you? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Well, it was — obviously, it was a really dark time for me. I was struggling in my business. We just had a project go south on us, and didn’t know where the next paycheck was coming from. Marilee and I were having a hard time. In fact, that night, before I came downstairs, I said to her, you know, I want a divorce. archived recording (sean escobar) Oh. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) And I expected her to say, no, we’re not going to go there. But instead, she said, O.K. archived recording (sean escobar) Oh. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) And that just pushed me into a dark place. And I remember getting out of bed that night. And I remember saying, oh God, please, not this. And then I came downstairs. And that night, I was acting out sexually, and that’s what was going on with me, because the pain was just so great. I was just trying to find a way to make a connection, a way to stop the pain. And you were the victim. And I’m so sorry for that. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, O.K. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) So that’s what was going on with me. Does that help? Does that make — archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, yeah. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) — some kind of sense to you? archived recording (sean escobar) O.K., yeah. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) In fact, I don’t know if this helps, but this is the only time in my life I have ever done this. archived recording (sean escobar) I’d really appreciate you just to be honest with me. Because I do find it hard to believe when someone says that it only happened the one time and only time, and that’s — and then I did get caught. I’m not the only one that finds that very hard to believe. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Yeah, I know. I understand where you’re going with that. Maybe it would be helpful to understand that I have acted out sexually in other ways. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K., what’s that look like? Like, what do you mean? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Well, there was a period of time when I was visiting prostitutes. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) And I had two or three affairs with other women. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K. Like, the affairs that you had, was any of them with men? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Uh huh, a couple were. A couple were. archived recording (sean escobar) So then that makes a little more sense — sean escobar In the Mormon faith, to have affairs, and prostitutes, and sex with someone of your same gender is right up there with murder. elizabeth harris Wow. sean escobar He knows that. And for him to give me that, I was shocked. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K., so that helps me a lot that you would say that. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) But that’s the only time I have ever done anything like I did to you. archived recording (sean escobar) To a child. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) To a child. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) You know, if I had to put a label on it, I guess the label I would put on it is bisexual rather than pedophile. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K., yeah. So and I was — sean escobar Throughout the recording, I repeatedly asked him if there was other victims. I didn’t just ask him once, I asked him over, and over, and over again. And then I asked him if — archived recording (sean escobar) — did you ever have any sexual interactions with any of the college-aged students that you’ve had as a teacher and professor? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) No. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) No, never have. archived recording (sean escobar) You’re just basically saying it was a deep, dark moment for you, and — well, and I need to get to this other question, because the other question is something that’s really been on my heart for as long as I can remember. Let me just — I don’t want to skip ahead here too much. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Sure. archived recording (sean escobar) This is a hard one. Had I not gotten up, and rushed to the bathroom, and locked myself in the bathroom, what was your intention for me? Do you remember — sean escobar One of the things that haunted me my entire life was, what was he going to do to me? And I ask him in the interview, what were you going to do to me if I didn’t run away? What were you going to do to me? archived recording (sean escobar) So I’ve always thought, my whole life, if I don’t jump up and go to the bathroom, where was that going? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Yeah, I follow your logic. And I’ve never followed that through in my own head. I mean, I just haven’t. archived recording (sean escobar) You probably don’t want to, yeah. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Yeah, I just — archived recording [INTERPOSING VOICES] archived recording (sean escobar) I am sorry. I’m sorry to make you go there. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) You have nothing to be sorry for, Sean. You have nothing to apologize for. archived recording (sean escobar) I feel bad because I don’t want to make you feel — I don’t want to make you say, this is what I was going to do to you. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) I actually don’t remember you getting up and going into the bathroom. I don’t remember that. Because I remember specifically being so — I sort of came to myself. I came to my senses. And I remember being so horrified at what I was doing that I just left and went back upstairs. sean escobar For that to be his memory of what happened, that was very frustrating for me. And so I stopped him and I said, well, let me tell you the way — what I remember. archived recording (sean escobar) Let me tell you what I remember. I remember you coming over and doing that to me, and then I woke up and saw you doing that to me, and then I — sean escobar And I proceeded to tell him — archived recording (sean escobar) You came to the door probably three or four different times. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Oh, my gosh. I don’t remember that. archived recording (sean escobar) That’s the way that I — that’s what I recall distinctly. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) I’m sure your memory is more accurate on that than mine is. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K., so — sean escobar Yes, I did feel the need to quickly correct that. elizabeth harris So it sounds like you started the conversation off feeling kind of powerless. But I wonder if there were any moments where you felt strong, where you felt some kind of power. sean escobar Oh, I think in that moment I actually felt more powerful. Yes, I think to hear what he had to say — it felt good to be a man. [CHUCKLING] Because, obviously, to be a full-grown man, and an adult, and to be able to have that voice and defend that 13-year-old child, that actually felt very good, yes. That makes me smile. That makes me smile. That makes me feel like, you know what, 13-year-old, Sean? 13-year-old Sean, I’m here for you. elizabeth harris You went from being a kid to being an adult. sean escobar That’s right. It felt very good to say, I’m not going to allow you to minimize what you did to me, no. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah, I appreciate it. I feel like you’ve been forthright, which I appreciate. I still struggle with the — me being the one and only kid, ever, and that being the only time you even have feelings, or affection, or attraction towards, you know — archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Sure, I can understand why you continue to be concerned about that. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Yeah. I just, I wish I knew what I could say that would give you some comfort on that front. archived recording (sean escobar) Yeah. Yeah, well, I appreciate you being honest with me, though. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) I appreciate your [KNOCKING ON TABLE] case fair labor shit you’re doing, man. archived recording (sean escobar) You need to use the restroom or anything? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) No, I’m good. archived recording (sean escobar) All right, my friend, well, thanks again, and — archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Sounds like you’ve got a good wife, too. archived recording (sean escobar) Oh, yeah. archived recording (sterling van wagenen) Tell her goodbye for me. archived recording (sean escobar) I will, Sterling. Thanks. You drive safe, O.K.? archived recording (sterling van wagenen) If you ever feel like you need to talk again or communicate, please, feel free to do that. archived recording (sean escobar) O.K., thank you. archived recording [DOOR OPENING, SHUTTING] [FOOTSTEPS] [RUSTLING] [TAPE RECORDER SWITCHING OFF]

[music]

annie brown

So how is Sean feeling after this conversation?

elizabeth harris

Sean is so relieved that it’s over. Like, he takes a massive exhale. And then his wife comes in, and she’s been listening to this whole thing from the stairs, and she is flabbergasted.

sean escobar My wife was so shocked. elizabeth harris Really? Tell me. sean escobar Oh, man, my wife was so shocked. My wife absolutely believed he was telling the truth, because she said to me, he was so kind, he was so sweet, did you hear him? He was so penitent and humble. And why would he tell you those things if he’s not honest? He didn’t have to tell you those things, see? elizabeth harris So she believed him about the whole thing, because he told you those sort of — sean escobar That’s right. elizabeth harris — damning details? I see. sean escobar I remember my wife saying, yay, like, she was just feeling — having this feeling like, good, you did it, now we can close this chapter and move on, and you got the assurances that you need. And then I was like, yeah, wow, that is crazy, isn’t it?

elizabeth harris

He plays the tape for his parents, and they feel the same way his wife did.

sean escobar He wouldn’t have been forthright about so much if he wasn’t being honest.

[music]

elizabeth harris So what happens in the days and weeks after that conversation? sean escobar I just listened to the recording several more times, and then I think I was trying to do what my parents and my wife were recommending, which was, you know, good, let’s close this chapter, let’s leave this alone, and that’s what I was trying so hard to attempt to do, was to shut it down. But something was stirring very heavily. I don’t know if I saw something in the news, or if I just had time to really contemplate the things he’d said, and the inconsistencies that I had picked up on. I was just consumed with the thought of, is there other victims? That’s all I could think about for two straight weeks. And I — silently, to myself, I made up my mind that I was going to pursue it, I was going to release it.

annie brown

And what does he mean when he says, release it?

elizabeth harris

He gives it to a whistle-blower website that focuses on the Mormon church. It used to be called MormonLeaks, and now it’s the Truth and Transparency Foundation. And he decides to let them publish the whole recording with Sterling’s name attached.

sean escobar I didn’t tell my parents that I’d released it until the day it was released. They happened to be at my house. And I told them — I said, I have to know if there’s other victims. This is the only way that I know of that I can discover if there’s other victims. They look shocked. They looked very confused. My mom, she said, I think you need to forgive him. And I remember saying, it’s not mine to forgive. If he’s in need of forgiveness, he can get it from God or Jesus, because it’s not my job to forgive that. And I remember the look on my mom’s face was that of disappointment. And I remember her looking at me like — I’ve never seen my mom look at me like that before. She looked at me like she didn’t recognize me anymore. elizabeth harris And what about your wife? How did she respond? sean escobar Same thing. I think this was very hard for her to witness me essentially tearing apart someone’s life, and their career, and their accomplishments, especially being that she believed him. She knew the consequences of what I’d done, and so did I. I knew what I’d done.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

annie brown

So what does happen to Sterling?

elizabeth harris

The repercussions start immediately.

sean escobar So the fallout was instantaneous, and it was very severe, yes. It was very extensive.

elizabeth harris

He is put on leave from his job at the University of Utah, and then, very shortly after that, resigns. The Sundance Film Festival really starts to distance themselves from him. They will tell anyone who will listen that they have had nothing to do with him since the ‘90s. And this thing that he’s always been known for, for founding Sundance, he starts to lose that. They’re really pushing him back.

annie brown

How is Sean feeling in this moment?

elizabeth harris

Sean still feels like the decision was right, that there have to be other people out there — other victims out there, and it’s had these effects on Sterling, but there will be other people to come forward.

annie brown

It’s worth it.

elizabeth harris

But it’s worth it.

sean escobar So the first week after I had released the recording, I think that I had a perception of victims coming forward. I’ve never done anything like this before. And maybe I assumed that all of a sudden that they would just jump into the boat kind of thing, you know, and I’m a victim, too, I’m a victim, too, I’m a victim, too, and —

elizabeth harris

And then in the first week, nobody comes forward. The second week comes and goes. Nobody.

sean escobar Well, as the days went on, I began to doubt myself and what I had done. I began to second-guess myself.

elizabeth harris

And then the third week goes by, and still, there is no one.

sean escobar Every day that went on from that point forward, I began to feel more and more remorse for what I had done.

elizabeth harris

And during this time, Sean said his family felt cold and distant.

sean escobar Just absolute confusion and disappointment.

elizabeth harris

They were still like, why did you do this? And he starts to have real doubts that he made a terrible mistake.

sean escobar I began to get sick. I developed an ulcer. I couldn’t function, I couldn’t work, I could hardly do anything, and I was in hell. elizabeth harris Because nothing good was coming from it. sean escobar Only bad was coming from it, lots of bad. And at that point I determined that I should have believed him, and I do need to forgive him, that’s the problem.

elizabeth harris

When he sees that no one else is coming forward, his whole sense of himself starts to shift. He saw himself as like this warrior, you know, fighting for other victims. But now he starts to think, was this just for me? Was I just trying to take this guy down?

sean escobar And so I made up my mind that I would forgive him, and I’m going to do everything in my power from this point forward to offer him redemption. I’m going to help restore his reputation. I had a plan. I devised a plan, and I even shared it with one of his children, that I have a way to offer your father redemption. elizabeth harris What was your plan? sean escobar What I had in mind was I was going to do everything in my power to get on some type of talk show or something of that nature, have them explain the whole story and play parts of my recording, have Sterling on the stage, and then introduce me as that victim, and bring me out. And I would then forgive him and offer him that redemption publicly. And I thought that it would kind of be a beautiful thing. elizabeth harris You really thought this through. sean escobar I actually thought it would be a beautiful thing for a perpetrator and a victim — yes, you hurt me. But because you never hurt any others, you’re human, and you deserve forgiveness, and you deserve a second chance kind of thing. elizabeth harris So you felt like the problem was you, and you wanted to kind of walk back what you had done. sean escobar That’s right. But then I was in Harmons — elizabeth harris What’s Harmons? sean escobar What’s that? elizabeth harris What’s Harmons? I think we don’t have them here. sean escobar Oh, sorry. Sorry. I was in a local grocery store. elizabeth harris O.K. sean escobar I was in a local grocery store, and I was shopping. And I remember, I was in the cold drinks section. And I got a text. It was exactly four weeks after I had released that recording. And all the text said was, Sean, you were right, there is another victim. And then it said, thank you. Thank you. And that was all it said. And I had this overwhelming feeling of clarity. The first person I called was my mom. And I called her right there from that same place in the grocery store, and I said, Mom, there’s another victim. And we cried, and we wept. And I remember her saying, I can see now that God is with you. And it just felt so good for me to feel understood. And I remember having this feeling, like, I’m validated. It was an interesting phenomenon, because at the same time, I felt very guilty. I felt extremely guilty. Because, you know, inherently what that means is that someone else was hurt. It just felt very strange and conflicting to be excited that there was another victim, be excited that someone else got hurt. elizabeth harris Yeah, right. sean escobar Yeah, that was very confusing for me.

annie brown

So who was the victim who came forward?

elizabeth harris

The victim that that text message was referring to is actually a member of Sterling’s family who came forward after reading the transcript of Sean’s conversation with him.

annie brown

Wow.

elizabeth harris

Yeah. The abuse took place a couple of years ago when she was between the ages of 7 and 9. And he has since pled guilty to two counts of aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and is expected to serve at least six years in prison.

annie brown

Six years.

elizabeth harris

Six.

elizabeth harris I’m curious about the scenario where no other victim did come forward. sean escobar Yeah, me too. elizabeth harris That doubt you felt — would having done this, would it still feel worth it to you? sean escobar No. elizabeth harris Hmm. sean escobar Well — no. elizabeth harris And why? sean escobar I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know. Well, there’s no justice for me. I mean, think about this. My statute of limitations around criminal charges was over. So I come forward, and, O.K., so the justice for me is public humiliation for him? Now if I felt like I needed justice, and this guy needs to go to prison, that’s completely different. But I don’t get off on just ruining a guy’s life. elizabeth harris Well, I guess what I’m getting at is, how much are victims responsible for what happens to their abusers? Even if Sterling had lost his job and lost his reputation, why should you feel bad about going forward with this information? Why is that your responsibility? sean escobar Oh, I see what you’re saying. Because we’re human. This wasn’t about sending this guy to prison. That was not what my motivation was. My motivation was, is there other victims out there? And if so, I have to make it safe for them to come forward. That’s exactly what I did. I accomplished exactly what I set out to do. This other victim came forward because she read the transcript. Her parents handed her the transcript of my recording, she read it, and she came forward. So I accomplished exactly what I set out to do. All that regret, and all that shame, and all that — it all went away from me. All the burden, it was all gone. I don’t feel bad that he lost his jobs. He lied to me. I don’t owe him anything. Had that not happened, I can’t — I don’t know. I don’t know. elizabeth harris Thank you so much, Sean. sean escobar Yeah, all right. Thanks, Liz.

annie brown

Liz, thank you so much.

elizabeth harris

Thank you.

[music]

michael barbaro

Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (theresa may) Ever since I first stepped through the door behind me as prime minister, I have driven to make the United Kingdom a country that works not just for a privileged few, but for everyone, and to honor the result of the E.U. referendum.

michael barbaro

On Friday morning, after repeatedly trying and failing to rally support for a plan to leave the European Union, British Prime Minister Theresa May announced she would resign.

archived recording (theresa may) But it is now clear to me that it is in the best interest of the country for a new prime minister to lead that effort. So I am today announcing that I will resign as leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party on Friday, the 7th of June, so that a successor can be chosen.

michael barbaro

From the start, May has struggled to convince Parliament and the British people that she was the right leader to guide the country through a historic and polarizing transition away from the E.U. In recent months, May had hinted that she would sacrifice herself to win them over. And by Friday, it was clear that that would be necessary.

archived recording (theresa may) It is and will always remain a matter of deep regret to me that I have not been able to deliver Brexit. It will be for my successor to seek a way forward that honors the result of the referendum.

michael barbaro

And —

archived recording [CHANTING]

michael barbaro

— Narendra Modi, India’s most dominant prime minister in a generation, was re-elected on Thursday by a historic margin.

archived recording (narendra modi) [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

michael barbaro