TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

Joe Amditis: Welcome, my name is Joe Amditis for Muckgers. I’m sitting here with Marios Athanasiou. Marios, why don’t you go ahead and say hi and introduce yourself.

Marios Athanasiou: Hi everyone. My name is Marios Athanasiou. I am the president of New Jersey United Students, and I am a third-year student here at Rutgers University studying planning and public policy and political science.

JA: Okay, so you are the current president of New Jersey United Students. Tell me a little bit about the organization and some of the campaigns are working on, specifically with regard to the tuition equity movement. We’re going to talk little bit about that today.

MA: Surely. So, New Jersey United Students is a not-for-profit organization. We are a statewide student association that is comprised of mostly public universities and community colleges throughout New Jersey that focuses on issues of higher education access, affordability, and equity through both grassroots and legislative campaigns. We have been, for this past year, working on a tuition equity campaign to get in-state tuition rates for undocumented residents, and have also been working on things like the minimum wage question that could be on the ballot this fall, a voter registration campaign to [promote] civic engagement from college students, and student debt work as a whole.

JA: Okay. So, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today was because, I’m not sure if you’ve heard recently — I’m sure you have — but Gov. Christie recently came out and switched, or at least signaled a switch, in his position on this issue, specifically the tuition equity issue. Can you tell us a little bit about how Gov. Christie has dealt with this issue in the past — some of the interactions you’ve had with him? How is the relationship between the student communities, like the ones you are a member of, and the governor and his administration?

MA: Yeah, that was something that did happen very recently, and it was great to see. Gov. Christie has been fairly silent about the issue of in-state tuition, specifically, as in a bill granting in-state tuition rates to undocumented students in the State of New Jersey. He had made previous statements, years ago, regarding the DREAM Act, which was something that was brought up during the debate, in the questioning. The questionnaire actually trying to make an accusation of him flip-flopping, and doing so to gain a Latino vote in the upcoming elections. However, it was really great to see that Christie is now supporting this kind of legislation. His argument that he had made, in prior times and now, was that it was an issue he felt was important, but needed to be done in a period of time when there was still economic prosperity. And the states have definitely seen a lot better times these days, and, you know, the time is now…

JA: Well see, and this is a good point because, that’s the main argument that I’ve heard against… First of all, go ahead… I want to go into what the tuition equity movement is, because, while this sounds very nice, there are laws and movements out there that have flown a banner of one particular message, or at least movement focus and it turns out, when you read into the issue, that it may or may not be represented clearly simply by a three or four word title, surprisingly. So, can you tell me a little bit about tuition equity, what it means, who it effects, and what are some of the big pushes for this? Where is this coming from? Why is this so important to, not only people like yourself, but to people like me, who maybe [have not had] the direct relationship with some of the people who are most affected by this issue?

MA: Yes, so the in-state tuition campaign is a campaign to, as I said before, gain in-state tuition rates for undocumented students. Presently, undocumented students face out-of-state, often international, rates when attending colleges. This can be double, triple the cost when they’ve been residents of that state, have gone through the educational systems in that state, and contributed to the tax base of that state for many years.

JA: So why… well… so why do… why would an undocumented person ‘deserve’ this tuition reduction, as opposed to someone who, say, a United States citizen, who is out-of-state, and wants to come to, let’s say Rutgers? Where does that lineup? Is that what’s going on? Is that a misrepresentation? How does that argument play out, and where are the… where do you stand on that? What is your answer to questions of that nature? Whereas, you have almost, what it seems, and what people seem to be trying to argue is that, this is something that is irrelevant, because they are not in-state, and they are undocumented, and therefore do not deserve access to the same reduced prices. Why shouldn’t they pay the out-of-state or the international rates, even if it is more? I mean…

MA: Well, I don’t see it… I feel like it’s a misrepresentation to call it a reduction. Because it’s not really reducing the cost of that education for the student, it’s just giving them the same treatment. It’s an issue of equality of treatment there. It’s an issue of equitability regarding matters of higher education. These are students who have lived in the state. They didn’t make the choice to emigrate into this country. They didn’t make a choice to emigrate into our state. Their parents made that choice, for whatever reasons that they did, and they were raised inside of this state. These are people we went to school with, someone who probably lived next to you in your cul-de-sac. The kind of students who have been living in these neighborhoods, who have been raised inside of our communities, have been a part of New Jersey, and have gone through the educational systems prior to this. We’ve already invested money into the students. They’ve gone into these public school systems and received that public education that taxpayer dollars paid for. Why don’t we finish the job? Why don’t we have an opportunity to see a return on that tax investment by giving them the same chance to attend the University, so they can advance themselves, so they can become a better person and a more educated worker, and contribute to our new economy?

JA: Right. So what you’re saying is, rather than put them through the process, we’ve already done — we’ve already sunk certain costs into this — why stop now? Why not let them, for those who wish to pursue college… because not everyone who graduates [from] high school is going to pursue a college education, correct? And if I understand this correctly, there are requirements that are involved to qualify for this in-state tuition. And apparently… I think what it said was, you have to have attended the school in the state for certain number of years — I think New Jersey, what, it’s 3, or something along those lines? — then you have to have graduated from the high school in the state, and you have to sign an affidavit swearing that you have either applied, or are going to apply, to legalize your status. Now, the argument becomes, why don’t we just say ‘Well, you can get these benefits, or you can get this rate, when you become a citizen’? Why are they not just becoming, or going through the process [to become a citizen]? Is there not a process available to them?

MA: Yeah, so, just to clarify there, yes, it is three years inside of New Jersey public school. You are graduating high school with a GED or equivalent diploma, and signing the affidavit. So, it’s really these immigrants indicating that they want to emigrate here legally. I want to become citizens, but they can’t right now. And we have to face the harsh reality of a broken and archaic immigration system that our country has. So many of these students have tried to immigrate into this country, have made these great strides, but our immigration process is a very arduous and complicated procedure, which is often costly and can jeopardize the lives and the lifestyles of, not just these students and residents, but their family members as well.

JA: Right, so this brings up a good point because, when it comes to the family members, specifically were talking about people who brought their children here under their own, like you said, their own motivations or impetus. So these are kids, who were… pretty much unconscious in terms of their own life direction and had no choice there. So, what I’d like to know… or what I’d like to discuss is the way that this… how does this fit into the larger picture in terms of national and international movement of peoples? Is this something that other states are doing? Is this something that other states have participated in and tried? Do we have test cases to see how this works out, or is this some wild new phenomenon that people are just to try, willy-nilly? Why don’t you go a little into that…

MA: Yeah, absolutely. This is something that many states have done before. This isn’t new and this isn’t that radical of a change to our current educational system. Thirteen states, I do believe, have past in-state tuition, including Texas in 2001, which was signed into law under Gov. Rick Perry. So this is clearly an issue that isn’t this Liberal idea that is trying to be forced in New Jersey, but a recognition of the importance of an education and the desire of hard-working students to receive an education and become better, more skilled, empowered workers inside of our modern workplace. A matter of students trying to just seek that advancement and that better life and aiding those students in becoming the new future that were going to be seeing inside of our country.

JA: Well what about cost to us — I mean “us,” as in legal residents or citizens — isn’t this going to cost more money, not only just for the tax payers, but for the schools? Don’t the universities have to pay more to situate the students in ways that they wouldn’t otherwise have had to do if they were in state or if they had legal citizenship? How much is this going to cost at the end of the day? I mean, are we sinking costs into something that is a net loss, or is this something that’s actually going to work out?

MA: That’s the beautiful thing. The New Jersey State Legislature’s Office of Legal Services has actually done a report and claims that this will cost nothing to the state or the taxpayer.

JA: Really?

MA: On implementation there will be no cost that is seen of this program. Because it’s not causing us to pay for something or build some kind of new structure there, it’s just providing that same opportunity, that same rate of tuition to the students. This is something that, as well, an issue that has been brought up in the past is that issue of, ‘What about the universities? Are they going to be straddled down with this burden there? How do they feel about this?’ And the universities have responded… The Council of College Presidents has actually released a statement in support of this, authored by Susan Cole. So that’s all of the presidents of public universities in New Jersey coming together and saying “We support this.”

JA: Including Barchi?

MA: Including Barchi.

JA: And so how has Barchi responded to your efforts and other people in the movement’s efforts? How has his response to this issue been? How have you worked with him in the past to get this issue on the table and get it resolved, and what kind of progress are you seeing?

MA: When we initially brought the issue forth to Barchi and tried to get his support, publicly, he did have some hesitations. He had been working on nationwide immigration reform issues, having been in Washington lobbying to and talking with legislators and senators about the issues of nationwide immigration reform, but he had some concerns about more nuanced aspects of the legislation. However, once we really tried to make an effort there to work with him, to work with the staff there, and iron out those kinks — because, at the end of the day, his concern was really one that was in regards to the University, and the health and well-being of the University, and this state. So once those things were really understood by him and accepted, as I said, the college Council did endorse this bill and has come out in support of it, which does include Robert Barchi, so it would seem that Barchi is back on our side.

JA: So Barchi is on board. It’s going to cost little, or next to nothing, if not nothing — a negligible cost. It’s been tried before in other states, on both sides of the political party — uh, well, “both” — on the Republican side and the Democrat side. And it’s been… and you’re saying it’s a… it’s not just about the individual student going to school, it’s more of a long-term investment. But, see, what I’ve heard in the past is, you know, how is this going to be implemented in terms of the way it’s set up now? Are these students otherwise not going to be able to go to school at all? I mean, it would seem as if this would almost be a benefit to the school on an individual level because now, instead of getting no student tuition from the prospect of applicant, they’re going to be getting, albeit a slightly reduced, or at least reduced rate, but still, that money is going to the school. I mean, am I on point? Is this correct? Or are there other situations? Because it seems, to me, I don’t see these arguments, the traditional arguments against this — ‘It’s gonna cost money… It’s gonna be imposing…’ — I mean, because, how many students in general — undocumented students — do you think, what’s the average…?

MA: This isn’t a massive influx that were going to be seeing. The school gates are not to be flooded with all of these undocumented students. But rather, it’s going to give this population of students that same opportunity and chance at an education. And, as you said, yeah, this is really something where it’s a no-brainer as far as I’m concerned, and as far as a lot of politicians are concerned. I mean, you’re seeing now, Governor Chris Christie — the biggest Republican figure we have in this state — coming out in support of this. People like President Sweeney coming out in support of this. You really see this bipartisan push in this state to get this passed because it makes sense. And it’s something that is going to be increasing, with those few applicants there, the enrollments of universities. But they’re going to be getting applicants who otherwise would have had to apply to private universities. I’ve talked with many undocumented students who have had to go to private universities because a private university will still give you — if you can afford it, if you can find scholarships for it — an education. They’re not going to discriminate against you the way that a public university would. This is just offering that same level of equality to students that we, as residents of this state, do enjoy and, I mean, we’re all taxpayers here. We’re all living in this community.

JA: Right. So, how has President Obama’s administration dealt with [this issue?] Because I know, under his administration, you’ve had record number of deportations of undocumented immigrants at a level that’s unprecedented. It seems as if there’s a lot of rhetoric or very grandiose talk about how ‘we need immigration reform, we need immigration reform’ but the reform seems to be — from my perspective, and what I’ve read — it tends to be heavy on the militarization, heavy on the deportation, but these kind of initiatives seem to be more put on the back-burner and almost labeled as these devious kind of meddling influences that we just don’t need to deal with right now because it’s just, like you said, it’s a small amount of people. I mean, what is so important about protecting this small group of people? They are not politically consequential, they don’t have ad money to donate to political campaigns. How are you, and how would someone who wanted to get involved in the movement, how would they go about pushing this issue? And on what grounds? In today’s economic atmosphere, when it comes to politics and policy, how you go about pushing this issue and how do you promote the interests of the people who are being denied access to this in a political atmosphere?

MA: It’s something that really is rather frustrating when you consider the national perspective and the efforts that are being done on a national scale, because this is often a roadblock that will be placed by people. You get this calm response of ‘Why are you focusing on this at the state level? Why are you even trying to get in-state tuition passed at the state level, where we should be working on federal issues should be working on things like the comprehensive immigration reform?’ And, to those skeptics, I say look at what’s happening in the past week alone. We currently have government that is shutting itself down and having massive, utterly childish, movements and failing to even meet… are you honestly trying to tell me… and yet we have at the same time in this state, Governor Chris Christie coming out in support of this, you have Sweeney coming out in support of this. You have this the notion that this is going to get past in lame-duck, and that this is going to actually see passage and become a law this year, and CIR’s stagnant. You really… I think, if anything, this just shows that when people try to put up roadblocks like that in these campaigns, and find reasons that ‘Oh no this is too small scale… The national debt…’ you push everything. If there is an opportunity to expand access, to expand affordability, to expand opportunity to students who have not seen that before, no matter how small or negligible of a population that may be, you fight for it. Because, in this country, everyone deserves to have the same opportunities and the same venues to advancement and empowerment that make this country so great.

JA: Right, and obviously, education, as [you know,] we spoke to John Connelly last week. We talked little bit about student debt education and the importance of those two factors in the overall health and prosperity of the nation. And John is very, as he expressed to me, is a very adamant believer in the value of education, especially higher education, and like I said last week, I mean, whether or not the direction of the applicant or the individual goes in one direction or the other it is really up to both the content and quality of education. But what you’re saying is, at the bare minimum, they should be given access to this opportunity or at least the structures of education so that they can move forward from there and make something of their lives — and then of course, later on, contribute back to the very community that they started in. Now, to me, that’s a great idea. But, I mean, of course it’s a very competitive system. Everyone is trying to get access to the system so we want to make sure that the people that we men are the most qualified and most likely to stay here. Would you say that undocumented immigrants have a high flight risk? Are they the ones that are likely to get this education and then leave and go start a life in a different country again? Or would you say that, of all people, the people who came here undocumented are most likely to stay?

MA: By all means. I mean, these are students who not only have been in this state, living in the state, grown up in this state, and getting education in this state. They want to pursue that I want further that they want to go to an institution of higher education in their statement they are proud to be residents of if you talk to the students they love New Jersey and they want to continue that they want to start a life here in New Jersey they want to become a part of the workforce in New Jersey be using the university education to pursue a job in fields that they are interested in that will be a real contribution from them to the state that’s given them so much. That’s all they really wanted to give back to this community that given them so much.

JA: And what I’d like to do to, we are going to wrap up here, but what I’d like to do if you’re interested we could meet up again at some point in the future and I’d actually like to talk to, if you would be interested, I would love to talk to some of these people. If you know anyone we can arrange something but I think that’s a great idea I think we do want to get to the point where we can have conversations with the people who are affected — and John talked about this — people who are affected by the policy. Obviously, you are affected by it, we all are affected by it, but I want to… I really appreciate your insistence, and you working with the groups of people that you do, because I think it’s important, at least a personal level, to really get this straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, rather than to kind of go off of hearsay, as most of these things do. So, I appreciate you sitting down and taking the time to talk with me. I hope to see you again soon, and maybe we’ll work something out, but I appreciate it thank you so much.

MA: Yeah. I mean, this is really a campaign where we’ve been working closely with the student groups that are affected by this population — the New Jersey DREAM Act Coalition, Anakbayan, shout out — and I’m sure students from those organizations and this movement would love to give that perspective as well.

JA: Okay. Well, thank you so much. Again, my name is Joe Amditis. I’m here for Muckgers. If you want to hear the entire interview or see the entire transcript you can visit www.muckgers.com. Thank you very much, and we’ll talk you next week