India Today Managing Editor S. Prasannarajan with Arvind Kejriwal India Today Managing Editor S. Prasannarajan with Arvind Kejriwal

The AAP leader at a public meeting. Photo: Chandradeep Kumar The AAP leader at a public meeting. Photo: Chandradeep Kumar

Arvind Kejriwal is India Today Newsmaker of the Year 2013. ( See the magazine issue dated Jan 6 currently on stands.) In this wide-ranging conversation with India Today Managing Editor S. Prasannarajan, the Aam Aadmi Party leader talks about his ideas and action plan for a new kind of governance. Excerpts.A: Life remains the same for me. It's always been a battle against injustice and corruption. That battle goes on. May be the methods have been changing. First, we were in the right to information campaign; then we led the Lokpal movement, then we formed a political party. So the strategies are changing. But it's basically a battle against injustice and corruption.A: Of course. When you say you are in power, it depends how you look at power. If power is a responsibility, then I think the struggle for injustice continues. But if power is a perks, then obviously there is a problem. You become the source of problems for others. Then others will have to fight against you.A: It was never a romance for us. It was a sense of responsibility at every stage. If it was just antic experience for us, we would have given up as soon as the movement was over. We were at the height of glory then. When we formed a political party, some people thought were hankering for power. We put our image at stake then. It is wrong to say that for us it was romance earlier and responsibility now.There are some institutions that need to be strengthened; some institutions need to be built, and there are some institutions that need to be done away with.A: I think CAG is a very good institution; judiciary is a very important institution. They need to be further strengthened; for instance, there is talk of corruption in judiciary, there is talk of pendency of cases. I think all those things need to be tackled. New institutions need to be created; for instance Lokpal needs to be created; mohalla sabhas need to be created; ward sabhas needs to be created. And if there are any institutions which have become redundant, they would need to be done away with. Right now I can't think of anything specific.A: It was a slow and gradual process. I came in touch with Arunaji ( Aruna Roy), I learnt about Right to Information. That was in 2001. When we started working on RTI, we came across so many cases of corruption. Whenever we would go to the government and ask for anything, the government would say there were no funds. We found out that in many Western countries, people actually have a direct say in day-to-day governance. You take the case of the US, Brazil, Switzerland, the UK and many European countries and you will find that people may have little say in the Central government but in their own town, municipality, county, they take the final decision. That is how this whole concept came to me.A: It is almost the same. Swaraj is basically that people should have the power to govern themselves---that is direct democracy. Decentralisation is a wrong word to use, it assumes that the power lies at the top . Actually power lies at the bottom. The time has come to take the power back from the top.A: We read Gandhi of course. We learnt from the experiences of other countries and very interesting experiences from ancient India, medieval India, of how there used to be direct democracy in small clusters before the British raj.A: place where people of all religions and castes live together in peace and harmony. They respect each other; the people are well educated. Everyone should have enough to be able to eat and sustain their families. I'm not saying everyone should become extravagantly rich but everyone should have sufficient food and good education.A: I was there in the Income Tax department, so I was part of the administration. There are others who have been in various institutions: Prashant Bhushan has been a lawyer; Yogendra Yadav has been a teacher; Sanjay Singh has been part of many movements in Uttar Pradesh; Manish Sisodia was a journalist. So it's a very good mix of people who have come together. So it's not like these people have been resisting all their lives. We are here because we were fighting against injustice. Frankly we have no such grand notion that we have all the brains and will change everything. We don't have a magic wand. But we are very confident that if we involve the people, the 1.5 billion people of Delhi together, there I won't be any problem that they can't solve. We will change the definition of government. Now every single person in Delhi will become a government.A: It is a huge sense of responsibility. It's not just responsibility but the kind of expectations that the people have from us is too huge and sometimes it really scares me. I have been telling all the MLAs from our part that the whole world is watching them and if they make the smallest mistake. history will never forgive them.A: The only answer to that is decentralization. If there is too much of power vested in me, I think I tomorrow I could become arrogant, I could become inaccessible. I may not become corrupt but there are so many personality traits, unholy personality traits that could creep in. The only challenge is that there should be no power in me, the power should be with the people.A: I fully agree with you. And let me share this with you: we have worked out the details to certain extent. We have taken the help of some very senior retired bureaucrats in working out those details. But now everything would need to be thrashed and we assure that good officers in Delhi administration would help in designing the system. It's not that we will be able to design the perfect system. But we will have to keep changing it. It will be a dynamic process.A: I never imagined in my life that I will fight elections or form a political party.A: Yes, I do believe in karma. In my childhood I was a believer. When I went to IIT, I turned agnostic. But in the last three years, I have again become a believer because the kind of movement it has become--- a huge movement, and I realized how small we were. It was not because of us. Something divine happened.A: Yes. For us it is a constant journey. It's a spiritual journey.A: You can't be just impulsive and you can't be just logical because the kind of work we are doing---obviously impulse, instinct and emotions play a greater role. But when you strategize things, logic works.A: I have not read any book in the last few years. I think the last I read was the Bhagvad Gita. There is absolutely no time. In the morning when I used to go for walks, I used to listen to bhajans, but even that has stopped now.A: Obviously you can't run a government by referendums. But once in a year, once in two years, if there is a big decision, I think people need to be consulted.A: Some people say that through referendum or through public opinion you can't take any unpopular decisions. I disagree with that. They don't know how the public works. We have held such public meetings and taken some of the most unpopular decisions. The only condition is that, with honesty, you must put all the pros and cons before the peopleA: We are basically very ordinary people. We want solutions. We have our problems. We have water problem, we have electricity problem, we have road problems, education problems, health problems . If we find a solution to these problems in the Left, we will be very happy to borrow from them; if we find a solution in the Right, we will be happy to borrow from them. We want solutions, that's all.A: I don't think it's a burden. I think it's in your grain what you are. It's impossible for me to be otherwise.