Eids Profile Joined November 2010 Norway 29 Posts #1 Concept



Don't get me wrong, nydusworming is by no means a new strategy.

However, with the new changes made to both queen ground range and overlordspeed, I figured it was time to do this guide.

I would say that the guide is written and would work for players all the way up to high masters, even though it might seem abit too detailed for top tier players.



The build will be focusing on exploiting protoss ffe, or gateway into ffe builds.

The build is ment for you to be able to steal a game of someone, and would work very well in a ladder situation (Players dont know you).

As with all cheesy nydusplay, you will obviouslly NOT be able to win consecutive games against the same player. As you rely on putting down the nydus in their base.

(If they are really looking for your nydus, you will probably not get it down.)

However, the build really punishes sloppy and careless toss players, which there are alot of even in high masters.

The build is no magic. It is based upon a 2 basing zerg, nydusing queens with reinforcing speedlings.









In short terms, the build will look like a normal build.

You will be going standard 15 pool into hatch. However, your first 100 gas goes directly into lair followed by lingspeed and nydus.

By doing this, your nydus will hit around 7:30 - 7:40.

Depending on protoss blocking your hatchery or not, your composition may vary as you will have less queens for the nydus. Your gas timings will still be the same,

hence nydustiming also stays the same.

This is a great timing vs a toss going ffe, and will eventually most certainly lead to a victory.

(*Laughing* - nothing feels better than cheesing a protoss)



So, how does nydusing your ffe-ing protoss win you the game?

While going for ffe, the protoss obviouslly delays teching. They normally focus skyrocketing their economy while building a solid wall at the front.

This makes for a timing before they start producing units, and it's this timing we are trying to exploit.

Some general versions of toss followups:

-If the toss goes for a big gatewaypush, you will hit right before warpgate research finishes,

and you will probably be able to snipe down the pylons powering the gateways before he even

gets one warpin.

He could do his first warpin at around 7:30 when doing super rush builds. These are probably the hardest to kill but, but with proper micro it should atleast make him forfeit the main.



-If the toss goes for early stargate play, he could have about 1 void ray + a pheonix on the way. Queens rape that shit.



-If the toss goes for dt's(nobody really does that), you got lair and an overlord nearby.



-If the toss goes some kind of robo/gatewaymix you would hit way before he could ever build up an army.



-If the toss counters, you got nydus.

My point is, if you get your nydus down, you WILL kill his main, which will eventually lead to victory (bold statement).



How do we proceed?

As mentioned earlier, we are going to use queens and lings for our first attack.

Assuming everything goes according to plan (execution of build), we will be hitting with 6 queens and a dousin (more?) lings at about 7:30 - 7:40.

Remember, queens now have 5 range vs groundunits and are pretty baller. With the amount of transfuses at this point, you shouldn't lose a single queen

while killing his main.



Genreal Build Order



+ Show Spoiler + Stage 1:



-15 Pool

-16 Hatch(prefer 16 over 15 because it is less likely of toss putting down pylon, try to sneak 1 drone out etc.)

-15 queen (number 1 at main, Move it to natural after injecting)

-17 lings

-18 overlord

-18 gas

-17 drone (you are now 18/18)

-18 drone

-19 drone

-20 queen (number 2 at main, Move it to natural after injecting)



Comment: Even though protoss sometimes pylonblock your hatchery, your gas timings will still be the same. You need to build 2 set of lings instead of 1 to kill it off.

As a consequence of this you will have 1-2 less queens for the attack. This doesn't hurt your build too much.



Stage 2:



At this point I will not write food count, as the food count doesn't really matter. Things you should remember: Queen presedence over drones.

Second gas timing. Saving up for lair/nydus

-2 drones

Expo UP -> Rally new drones to natural. Move some drones from main to natural.

-Build first queen at natural

-overlord

-About 10 seconds before your second queen from main pops, build second gas in main

-Once second queen from main pops, build lair in main

-"Fill in some drones"

-Second queen from natural

-You would want to get lingspeed around 5:40 or about 150 gas

-"Fill in some drones"

-Lair done at around 6:10

-Instant nydus network

-5th and 6th queen

-At this point,No more drones. Start pumping lings. You should have about 22-24 drones in total now, mostly in your natural(obviously not more than 16).

-Nydus worm when you have found a good location.

-Reinforce with lings. Remember overlords. I find it easy to get blocked at this point.



Short version:

-15 pool into hatch

-Queen Presedence over drones. Your first gas goes down about 5 seconds after first queen starts. Your second gas should start around 10sec

before lair starts. (Gas timings are obviouslly important)

-lair when second queen from main pops

-Nydus network when lair's done

-Lingsproduction when you got around 22-24 workers

-Nydus worm when nydus network is done

Remember, the exact dronecount doesn't really matter. Try to execute gas- and queentimings correctly, so your lair/nydus is on time.



Overlord/nydusplacement

A big reason why nydus is better now is the new overlord speedbuff. This make scouting around for possible locations easier, and is a crucial factor why the build works so well.

In most cases you can get 3 overlords scouring around the protoss base.

Below, I have included possible overlord and nydusplacement for the current laddermaps.

Red indicates possible nydusplacement. Red with black indicates where I prefer placing my nudus'. Green indicates overlord placement and movement.

Purple indicates imergency nydus.

If your first nydus gets killed you could try putting up one of these to draw their attention to the front of their base. While unloading from this and attacking his front, try putting up another one in his base. You should have enough gas to do this.

NB. Getting your overlords in the correct spot are key to any nydusplay.



Antiga shipyard:

+ Show Spoiler +

Antiga shipyard is a great map for nydus. As you can see, I prefer the area around the smoky area. In order for protoss to cover this whole area, he needs 3 pylons.

1 inside the smoky field, 1 under and 1 over(see red with black stars). Protoss will probably not do that very often.

Antiga shipyard is a great map for nydus. As you can see, I prefer the area around the smoky area. In order for protoss to cover this whole area, he needs 3 pylons.1 inside the smoky field, 1 under and 1 over(see red with black stars). Protoss will probably not do that very often.



Korhal Compound:

+ Show Spoiler +

As I have vetoed Korhal Compound, I dont have alot of experience nydusing here.

However, this is a map with a big main area, and would be great for this build.

There are a lot of possibilities. Personally, if I see no pylon in the area around the bottom overlord, I love sacrificing him to the natural.

This way I get both vision where I want to put nydus(black stars), in addition to drawing his units and atention away from the nydus

As I have vetoed Korhal Compound, I dont have alot of experience nydusing here.However, this is a map with a big main area, and would be great for this build.There are a lot of possibilities. Personally, if I see no pylon in the area around the bottom overlord, I love sacrificing him to the natural.This way I get both vision where I want to put nydus(black stars), in addition to drawing his units and atention away from the nydus



Cloud Kingdom:

+ Show Spoiler +

Cloud Kingdom is a great map for nydusing. There is alot of room in the top right of his base aswell as the left side.

I love putting nydus' closer towards their ramp and close to their lowground buildings, as I find it less likely for them to have highground vision there.(They often forget)

Also, you could move your top overlord around to the left side of his main.

Cloud Kingdom is a great map for nydusing. There is alot of room in the top right of his base aswell as the left side.I love putting nydus' closer towards their ramp and close to their lowground buildings, as I find it less likely for them to have highground vision there.(They often forget)Also, you could move your top overlord around to the left side of his main.



Daybreak:

+ Show Spoiler +

Pretty much same as Cloud Kingdom. Good nydusmap. Again, I prefer the positions closer to ramp towards lowground.

Pretty much same as Cloud Kingdom. Good nydusmap. Again, I prefer the positions closer to ramp towards lowground.



Entombed Valley:

+ Show Spoiler +

Haven't played this at all since it's on my veto list. It seems like a very good nydusmap however. You even got som spots in their natural.

Haven't played this at all since it's on my veto list. It seems like a very good nydusmap however. You even got som spots in their natural.



Metalopolis:

+ Show Spoiler +

Again, maps like metalopolis and antiga with fog from smoky-stuff are great for nydusing.

Again, maps like metalopolis and antiga with fog from smoky-stuff are great for nydusing.



Ohana:

+ Show Spoiler +

Alot similar to Korhal Compound. I like the position close to their lowground natural (black stars).

Alot similar to Korhal Compound. I like the position close to their lowground natural (black stars).



Shakuras Plateu:

+ Show Spoiler +

On Shakuras, protoss seem to be more alert to nydusplay. Maybe since the main-area is so big. However, with 3 overlords flying around, you should be able to find a spot.

On Shakuras, protoss seem to be more alert to nydusplay. Maybe since the main-area is so big. However, with 3 overlords flying around, you should be able to find a spot.



Tal'darim Altar:

+ Show Spoiler +

There is alot of area to the right, but the protoss are normally good at building pylons over there. There is still a good chance of finding a good spot.

The area is huge! Be sneaky.

There is alot of area to the right, but the protoss are normally good at building pylons over there. There is still a good chance of finding a good spot.The area is huge! Be sneaky.



Conclusion: Pretty much all the maps are viable for the build.



Tips and tricks

-Your queens should be loaded first into the nydus network. This way you can instantly transfuse your worm if needed.



-You are trying to hide the fact that you are teching to lair and doing a cheesy build. Transfering drones to your natural will make it look like you have more drones.

Also, You will build up alot of larvae. Try building drones and overlords from the natural hatchery.

(It might look suspicious if you got 10 spare larvae on your natural hatchery)

In addition it might be clever to put down a creep tumor from your natural early on, as it would look kinda strange if you have 3 queens and no creep extending.



-You MUST prevent protoss from scouting your main (obviously). That is way you are transfering your first 2 queens from your main to your natural.

When you get to the point where you got 4-5-6 queens, you shouldn't show him all of them if he scoutes the front. Remember you are trying to represent a non-allin build.



-You should instantly put down 1-2 creep tumors in the protoss base after nydus as you want the creep to extend to his ramp (for followup + speed).



-Depending on your followup, pull guys of gas.



-Dealing with zealot scout. 3 queens will kill it before reaching main. Otherwise I suggest blocking ramp. They will not always sacrifice it though.



Followup

One of two things usually happens after he hears the nydus-roar-thingy.



-He's doing some kind of tech and thinks he can defend his main. He pulls all the probes + 1 or 2 sentries + 1 or 2 zealots.

You will most certainly win this with proper transfuses. He leaves the game.



-He pulls all his probes to the natural sacrificing the main. Prioritize killing pylons powering gates/robo etc first.

Dont try running to his natural as he probably got a sentry. At this point you are still reinforcing with lings. You should stop reinforcing with lings when main is dead, unless you are afraid of him retaking his main.

Start droning up abit while teching. Personally I like building 3-5 spinecrawler in his main nearby ramp/cliff to pick of buildings and possibly a few mineralpatches. However you could go with other alternatives.

From this point you have pretty much won the game. Put lings on possible expansionlocations(important) and play out the game vs 1 base protoss.

Turn one of your overlords into an overseer to snipe observer to prevent high ground vision.

It could be convinient to build 1-2 spines back at your base, even though you got your nydus.



I understand that many might think that nydusing is a coinflip situation. Either protoss sees the nydus and wins, or nydus goes up and zerg wins.

Personally I find that this isn't the case, even in high masters.

Remember, a nydusworm takes 20 seconds to build. Probes alone kill the 200 hp worm in about 8-9 seconds (excluded traveltime).

If you place the nydus in a spot far away from their mineral lines (in full protoss sight. remember instant transfuse), they still need to react in a matter of seconds.

Even if I dont get the first nydus up, I have won alot of games by placing the followup nydus' in different locations.

I would say my winrate vs toss after using only this build is about 80-90% (40-50 games). If executed properly, I think alot of lower tier players would have a blast doing this, and get a bunch og free wins.

However, as with all cheesy builds. The more popular it is, the less efficient it will be.







Replays

+ Show Spoiler +

I lost all of my old replays. Therefore the quality isn't the best. However, they represent the general idea and build order.

More replays will be comming.



Korhal Compound: http://drop.sc/188262?pass=89d788e2-d43f-450e-9617-0af44b433cc1



Shakuras Plateu: http://drop.sc/188263?pass=31723680-5d08-40a9-a04f-6452d2d46f72



Tal'darim Altar: http://drop.sc/188264?pass=f0f6fdce-0865-4e55-86a3-9de99160c3ca



Tal'darim Altar: http://drop.sc/188268?pass=aea766c5-f336-41fa-9b02-a724692f0ba0



Antiga Shipyard: http://drop.sc/188112



As you can see, I even do alot of minor errors.

I lost all of my old replays. Therefore the quality isn't the best. However, they represent the general idea and build order.More replays will be comming.As you can see, I even do alot of minor errors.











Eids, eu server Don't get me wrong, nydusworming is by no means a new strategy.However, with the new changes made to both queen ground range and overlordspeed, I figured it was time to do this guide.I would say that the guide is written and would work for players all the way up to high masters, even though it might seem abit too detailed for top tier players.The build will be focusing on exploiting protoss ffe, or gateway into ffe builds.The build is ment for you to be able to steal a game of someone, and would work very well in a ladder situation (Players dont know you).As with all cheesy nydusplay, you will obviouslly NOT be able to win consecutive games against the same player. As you rely on putting down the nydus in their base.(If they are really looking for your nydus, you will probably not get it down.)However, the build really punishes sloppy and careless toss players, which there are alot of even in high masters.The build is no magic. It is based upon a 2 basing zerg, nydusing queens with reinforcing speedlings.In short terms, the build will look like a normal build.You will be going standard 15 pool into hatch. However, your first 100 gas goes directly into lair followed by lingspeed and nydus.By doing this, your nydus will hit around 7:30 - 7:40.Depending on protoss blocking your hatchery or not, your composition may vary as you will have less queens for the nydus. Your gas timings will still be the same,hence nydustiming also stays the same.This is a great timing vs a toss going ffe, and will eventually most certainly lead to a victory.(*Laughing* - nothing feels better than cheesing a protoss)While going for ffe, the protoss obviouslly delays teching. They normally focus skyrocketing their economy while building a solid wall at the front.This makes for a timing before they start producing units, and it's this timing we are trying to exploit.Some general versions of toss followups:-If the toss goes for a big gatewaypush, you will hit right before warpgate research finishes,and you will probably be able to snipe down the pylons powering the gateways before he evengets one warpin.He could do his first warpin at around 7:30 when doing super rush builds. These are probably the hardest to kill but, but with proper micro it should atleast make him forfeit the main.-If the toss goes for early stargate play, he could have about 1 void ray + a pheonix on the way. Queens rape that shit.-If the toss goes for dt's(nobody really does that), you got lair and an overlord nearby.-If the toss goes some kind of robo/gatewaymix you would hit way before he could ever build up an army.-If the toss counters, you got nydus.My point is, if you get your nydus down, you WILL kill his main, which will eventually lead to victory (bold statement).As mentioned earlier, we are going to use queens and lings for our first attack.Assuming everything goes according to plan (execution of build), we will be hitting with 6 queens and a dousin (more?) lings at about 7:30 - 7:40.Remember, queens now have 5 range vs groundunits and are pretty baller. With the amount of transfuses at this point, you shouldn't lose a single queenwhile killing his main.Remember, the exact dronecount doesn't really matter. Try to execute gas- and queentimings correctly, so your lair/nydus is on time.A big reason why nydus is better now is the new overlord speedbuff. This make scouting around for possible locations easier, and is a crucial factor why the build works so well.In most cases you can get 3 overlords scouring around the protoss base.Below, I have included possible overlord and nydusplacement for the current laddermaps.Red indicates possible nydusplacement. Red with black indicates where I prefer placing my nudus'. Green indicates overlord placement and movement.Purple indicates imergency nydus.If your first nydus gets killed you could try putting up one of these to draw their attention to the front of their base. While unloading from this and attacking his front, try putting up another one in his base. You should have enough gas to do this.NB. Getting your overlords in the correct spot are key to any nydusplay.Antiga shipyard:Korhal Compound:Cloud Kingdom:Daybreak:Entombed Valley:Metalopolis:Ohana:Shakuras Plateu:Tal'darim Altar:Conclusion: Pretty much all the maps are viable for the build.-Your queens should be loaded first into the nydus network. This way you can instantly transfuse your worm if needed.-You are trying to hide the fact that you are teching to lair and doing a cheesy build. Transfering drones to your natural will make it look like you have more drones.Also, You will build up alot of larvae. Try building drones and overlords from the natural hatchery.(It might look suspicious if you got 10 spare larvae on your natural hatchery)In addition it might be clever to put down a creep tumor from your natural early on, as it would look kinda strange if you have 3 queens and no creep extending.-You MUST prevent protoss from scouting your main (obviously). That is way you are transfering your first 2 queens from your main to your natural.When you get to the point where you got 4-5-6 queens, you shouldn't show him all of them if he scoutes the front. Remember you are trying to represent a non-allin build.-You should instantly put down 1-2 creep tumors in the protoss base after nydus as you want the creep to extend to his ramp (for followup + speed).-Depending on your followup, pull guys of gas.-Dealing with zealot scout. 3 queens will kill it before reaching main. Otherwise I suggest blocking ramp. They will not always sacrifice it though.One of two things usually happens after he hears the nydus-roar-thingy.-He's doing some kind of tech and thinks he can defend his main. He pulls all the probes + 1 or 2 sentries + 1 or 2 zealots.You will most certainly win this with proper transfuses. He leaves the game.-He pulls all his probes to the natural sacrificing the main. Prioritize killing pylons powering gates/robo etc first.Dont try running to his natural as he probably got a sentry. At this point you are still reinforcing with lings. You should stop reinforcing with lings when main is dead, unless you are afraid of him retaking his main.Start droning up abit while teching. Personally I like building 3-5 spinecrawler in his main nearby ramp/cliff to pick of buildings and possibly a few mineralpatches. However you could go with other alternatives.From this point you have pretty much won the game. Put lings on possible expansionlocations(important) and play out the game vs 1 base protoss.Turn one of your overlords into an overseer to snipe observer to prevent high ground vision.It could be convinient to build 1-2 spines back at your base, even though you got your nydus.I understand that many might think that nydusing is a coinflip situation. Either protoss sees the nydus and wins, or nydus goes up and zerg wins.Personally I find that this isn't the case, even in high masters.Remember, a nydusworm takes 20 seconds to build. Probes alone kill the 200 hp worm in about 8-9 seconds (excluded traveltime).If you place the nydus in a spot far away from their mineral lines (in full protoss sight. remember instant transfuse), they still need to react in a matter of seconds.Even if I dont get the first nydus up, I have won alot of games by placing the followup nydus' in different locations.I would say my winrate vs toss after using only this build is about 80-90% (40-50 games). If executed properly, I think alot of lower tier players would have a blast doing this, and get a bunch og free wins.However, as with all cheesy builds. The more popular it is, the less efficient it will be.Eids, eu server

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts #2 You know, Nydus must be the only cheesy style against protoss that I have not experimented with at all lol. I definitely agree that builds like yours are stronger with the new overlord speed buff, and I look forward to the newer replays. I will definitely be mixing this into some ladder matches. Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

chebhe Profile Joined May 2012 United States 113 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 14:27:37 #3 I love this build only because of the style it brings. EDIT:



Just used it and killed the opponents main as he was doing a blink build, he massed cannons then alt tabbed for the rest of the game Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse

Anvil666 Profile Joined October 2007 Germany 122 Posts #4 Holy fuck, fantastic! I just got placed into diamond and obviously got raped to death a couple times. This will give me some ease while I work out my zvt and zvz builds first. Thanks mucho!

TiBoxy Profile Joined May 2012 Norway 23 Posts #5 This is alot similar to the old ling/hydra 2 base nydus allin. 9-10 min hydra/ling nydus still has the potential to work, I remember doing it on taldarim a couple of months back (first time doing it in about a year) with success. This ling/queen variant sounds much stronger in todays metagame. The only real bo loss would problably be against a 6-7 gate, or maybe stargate/4 gate +1. You problably have some experiences with this if you have done this build 40-50 games?



Personally I would problably abort the allin if scouting no gas at natural. It is before you commit to build the nydus structure and too many queens anyway, and just drone and go for 2 base infestor into standard play or whatever. Infestor would be the most logical backup transition for me at least.



Btw. The spot behind the mineral line on Taldarim is a really nice nydus location. It's not that common for toss to have pylons/structures behind there, and if they do its usually dt/stargate tech that they wish to hide so its a win win to try to check that spot out anyway.

GrassEater Profile Joined July 2010 Sweden 417 Posts #6 I love this build. Have got some freewins when people use similar styles.

NewEyes Profile Joined March 2012 Germany 111 Posts #7 Pretty goood guide i have to say.



My only concern as a protoss player is: When i FFE and see no fast 3rd i will expect something cheesy going on like Roach/Bling Bust, fast Mutas or a Nydus. So what happens when i do my normal 2 Zealot Push after FFE to check what you are goint to do? What am i going to see at 6:30-7:00? A bunch of Lings probably and i guess Spoeed will finish around that time as well... So i'd guess Bling Bust or Nydus and if i spread out Pylons enough i m going to have an easy time.



What really bothers me is that you are saying that you want to try and fake a non-allin build. I just dont see that working with no 3rd base at 7min... Even if you kill my zealots with a bunch of lings i will still know something is up because you will have waaay to many zerglings way to fast.



It's just so coinflippy... If i predict right (which is not that hard) and make no mistakes i will win no matter what.



Still a good ladder build though!

MateShade Profile Joined July 2011 Australia 736 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 15:44:09 #8 I don't agree with your point about the stargate play, a good player will clear the overlords with a void ray. It's true that if the nydus goes down the main is dead, but there's no way to deny the probe scouting no 3rd so the toss will prepare for nydus especially if they manage to scout your gas (difficult with new queen buff). The build is based on hope obviously but fun nonetheless.



Edit: at the above post, you don't need to guess, you should cut your 2nd zealot and begin sentries and pylons around your main if you scout no 3rd by 5 30, you can deal with both no problem at the same time given timely scouting.

Eids Profile Joined November 2010 Norway 29 Posts #9 On May 30 2012 00:04 TiBoxy wrote:

This is alot similar to the old ling/hydra 2 base nydus allin. 9-10 min hydra/ling nydus still has the potential to work, I remember doing it on taldarim a couple of months back (first time doing it in about a year) with success. This ling/queen variant sounds much stronger in todays metagame. The only real bo loss would problably be against a 6-7 gate, or maybe stargate/4 gate +1. You problably have some experiences with this if you have done this build 40-50 games?



Personally I would problably abort the allin if scouting no gas at natural. It is before you commit to build the nydus structure and too many queens anyway, and just drone and go for 2 base infestor into standard play or whatever. Infestor would be the most logical backup transition for me at least.



Btw. The spot behind the mineral line on Taldarim is a really nice nydus location. It's not that common for toss to have pylons/structures behind there, and if they do its usually dt/stargate tech that they wish to hide so its a win win to try to check that spot out anyway.



First of all, I think this queenbuild differs from the one you are talking about by the fact that it is design around hitting a timing where the protoss have alot of economy commited into infrastructure (tech buildings) and very few units. This makes it so much easier to actually kill the protoss.

With the hydra build you would pretty much lose to every robobuild and probably to alot of sentry heavy gateway armies.

As for the gatewaytiming you are talking about. This nydus will hit at the exact same time as the fastest 6-7 gates there is from a ffe (might be wrong by a few secs). Either way you should still be able to shut down their first warpin in order to kill their main (=toss on 1 base). All stargate play is shut down due to queens. I dont recommend aborting build, no. The build should kill the 6-7 gate. You are absolutely right with the tal'darim position. However I find it difficult to get an extra overlord back there in addition to the two others.



First of all, I think this queenbuild differs from the one you are talking about by the fact that it is design around hitting a timing where the protoss have alot of economy commited into infrastructure (tech buildings) and very few units. This makes it so much easier to actually kill the protoss.With the hydra build you would pretty much lose to every robobuild and probably to alot of sentry heavy gateway armies.As for the gatewaytiming you are talking about. This nydus will hit at the exact same time as the fastest 6-7 gates there is from a ffe (might be wrong by a few secs). Either way you should still be able to shut down their first warpin in order to kill their main (=toss on 1 base). All stargate play is shut down due to queens. I dont recommend aborting build, no. The build should kill the 6-7 gate. You are absolutely right with the tal'darim position. However I find it difficult to get an extra overlord back there in addition to the two others. On May 30 2012 00:13 NewEyes wrote:

Pretty goood guide i have to say.



My only concern as a protoss player is: When i FFE and see no fast 3rd i will expect something cheesy going on like Roach/Bling Bust, fast Mutas or a Nydus. So what happens when i do my normal 2 Zealot Push after FFE to check what you are goint to do? What am i going to see at 6:30-7:00? A bunch of Lings probably and i guess Spoeed will finish around that time as well... So i'd guess Bling Bust or Nydus and if i spread out Pylons enough i m going to have an easy time.



What really bothers me is that you are saying that you want to try and fake a non-allin build. I just dont see that working with no 3rd base at 7min... Even if you kill my zealots with a bunch of lings i will still know something is up because you will have waaay to many zerglings way to fast.



It's just so coinflippy... If i predict right (which is not that hard) and make no mistakes i will win no matter what.



Still a good ladder build though!



As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.

I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)

I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.

What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.

Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip. As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip.

Eids Profile Joined November 2010 Norway 29 Posts #10 On May 30 2012 00:40 MateShade wrote:

I don't agree with your point about the stargate play, a good player will clear the overlords with a void ray. It's true that if the nydus goes down the main is dead, but there's no way to deny the probe scouting no 3rd so the toss will prepare for nydus especially if they manage to scout your gas (difficult with new queen buff). The build is based on hope obviously but fun nonetheless.



Edit: at the above post, you don't need to guess, you should cut your 2nd zealot and begin sentries and pylons around your main if you scout no 3rd by 5 30, you can deal with both no problem at the same time given timely scouting.



I have tried to make the point that it isn't as black and white as many might think. Even though you spot one overlord and kills it, (The timings are really tight for you to even kill it) the game isn't lost. Remember, the nydus only needs to stay up for a fraction of a second with instant transfuses ready. I have tried to make the point that it isn't as black and white as many might think. Even though you spot one overlord and kills it, (The timings are really tight for you to even kill it) the game isn't lost. Remember, the nydus only needs to stay up for a fraction of a second with instant transfuses ready.

chebhe Profile Joined May 2012 United States 113 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 15:50:39 #11 Fake the 3rd. He will not scout twice for it. This will help you alot.



Deal with the 2 zealot push with 10 speedlings. Make sure to scout them coming well in advance, let him KNOW you scouted him, and then attack when they are ALMOST to your 3rd (but not in range of vision of the creep).



This doesnt look too suspicious and your nydus is almost done... Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse

MateShade Profile Joined July 2011 Australia 736 Posts #12 On May 30 2012 00:43 Eids wrote:



As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.

I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)

I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.

What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.

Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip.



If protoss opens stargate its a coinflip. If Protoss opens anything else and no 3rd is scouted, extra pylons will be built If protoss opens stargate its a coinflip. If Protoss opens anything else and no 3rd is scouted, extra pylons will be built

Eids Profile Joined November 2010 Norway 29 Posts #13 On May 30 2012 00:47 chebhe wrote:

Fake the 3rd. He will not scout twice for it. This will help you alot.



Might be a good idea, maybe delaying 2 of the queens abit and just canceling hatch before its done. Timings could be changed though and would need to look into it. However, I generally dont have a problem putting down the nydus. (Protoss would certainly get better at scouting base if more people nydus) Might be a good idea, maybe delaying 2 of the queens abit and just canceling hatch before its done. Timings could be changed though and would need to look into it. However, I generally dont have a problem putting down the nydus. (Protoss would certainly get better at scouting base if more people nydus)

chebhe Profile Joined May 2012 United States 113 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 15:52:59 #14 I'm not sure how often Protoss will rescout the 3rd after having scouted it, because I havent played much in a few months.



If this is common then your way may be worth it. But otherwise I would just cancel it right when the probe leaves.



I can't say it's very practical since you can scout with 2 zealots at a reasonable timing.



Rescouting with the probe seems redundant when you can watch for Nydus closely and not have to. Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse

MateShade Profile Joined July 2011 Australia 736 Posts #15 On May 30 2012 00:47 chebhe wrote:

Fake the 3rd. He will not scout twice for it. This will help you alot.



Deal with the 2 zealot push with 10 speedlings. Make sure to scout them coming well in advance, let him KNOW you scouted him, and then attack when they are ALMOST to your 3rd (but not in range of vision of the creep).



This doesnt look too suspicious and your nydus is almost done...



If 10 lings are built and the probe doesn't get to see the hatch finish they will absolutely check it again. This is a huge sign for a bane bust, this build is better off as a 2 base. If 10 lings are built and the probe doesn't get to see the hatch finish they will absolutely check it again. This is a huge sign for a bane bust, this build is better off as a 2 base.

chebhe Profile Joined May 2012 United States 113 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 15:55:19 #16 Baneling Bust.



I havent kept up on the PvZ metagame so I'll take your word for it.



Then the OPs fix of going 4 queen instead of 6 may be better. I think that will work fine as long as you get the nydus down. Infact you may just let the 3rd finish. It will give some extra larva. You do get sort of low on larva after bringing all your queens. Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse

Eids Profile Joined November 2010 Norway 29 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 15:55:09 #17 On May 30 2012 00:49 MateShade wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 30 2012 00:43 Eids wrote:



As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.

I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)

I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.

What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.

Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip.



If protoss opens stargate its a coinflip. If Protoss opens anything else and no 3rd is scouted, extra pylons will be built If protoss opens stargate its a coinflip. If Protoss opens anything else and no 3rd is scouted, extra pylons will be built



As mentioned, I disagree. As mentioned, I disagree.

MateShade Profile Joined July 2011 Australia 736 Posts #18 On May 30 2012 00:46 Eids wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 30 2012 00:40 MateShade wrote:

I don't agree with your point about the stargate play, a good player will clear the overlords with a void ray. It's true that if the nydus goes down the main is dead, but there's no way to deny the probe scouting no 3rd so the toss will prepare for nydus especially if they manage to scout your gas (difficult with new queen buff). The build is based on hope obviously but fun nonetheless.



Edit: at the above post, you don't need to guess, you should cut your 2nd zealot and begin sentries and pylons around your main if you scout no 3rd by 5 30, you can deal with both no problem at the same time given timely scouting.



I have tried to make the point that it isn't as black and white as many might think. Even though you spot one overlord and kills it, (The timings are really tight for you to even kill it) the game isn't lost. Remember, the nydus only needs to stay up for a fraction of a second with instant transfuses ready. I have tried to make the point that it isn't as black and white as many might think. Even though you spot one overlord and kills it, (The timings are really tight for you to even kill it) the game isn't lost. Remember, the nydus only needs to stay up for a fraction of a second with instant transfuses ready.



You'll find most of the modern stargate builds are designed to simply put the Zerg in the dark, the void ray will go overlord hunting and If they miss an overlord sure but that's a coinflip no? You'll find most of the modern stargate builds are designed to simply put the Zerg in the dark, the void ray will go overlord hunting and If they miss an overlord sure but that's a coinflip no?

chebhe Profile Joined May 2012 United States 113 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-29 16:00:30 #19 Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine. This nydus comes much earlier than others since it relies on speedlings which are not costly in gas, and a fast tech.



One potential problem is a probe scouting the fast lair. But most seem to focus excessively on the 3rd nowdays. We will have to see. Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse

MateShade Profile Joined July 2011 Australia 736 Posts #20 On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:

Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine.



You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map. You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map.

1 2 3 4 5 Next All