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Posts: 356 Medium Chill - respond, don't react « on: October 28, 2005, 07:53:27 AM »



Re: How Do I Handle Indirect Insults and Projections?



« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2004, 08:18:39 AM »



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was just brushing up on a technique that I'll need this weekend to deal with a BPD relative. It's called "Medium Chill", and it was taught to me by a friend whose mother suffers from BPD.



Medium Chill:



When they lash out- show no anger



When they are nice- don't revile in the validation.



Be tempered in both cases. When they sense they can't manipulate your reaction, they tend to leave you alone.



Tell them nothing, ask them nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries. Medium Chill gives no appearance of withdrawal, so they can't accuse you of giving them the cold shoulder. You are there, you're just not present to them.



Medium Chill is effective because they no longer feel "safe" in their ability to generate chaos. So now you're back in control. It takes a bit of practice, as you have to learn to disconnect from them emotionally. But I've had some great success using this.



When I first came to these boards, I read about boundaries and Limited Contact. They all made sense, and I felt as if I had been doing them already for a very long time. The same friend who introduced me to these boards also introduced me to the concept of Medium Chill, though I must admit it took a little while and practice for to "get it" that Medium Chill is something more that taps into the psyche and become the Medium Chill Zen Master. It's a bit late here and I'm more than a touch tired, so I might not be particularly eloquent as I type this tonight... .



It's about more than just boundaries.



To put it in simpler terms, it's a two-parter with a specific attitude:



(1) never share personal or private information on yourself;



(2) never get involved in their problems/drama;



(attitude) pleasant, modest, implacably calm-- never showing anger or compassionate involvement; paying attention but not too much attention-- while NEVER violating items one or two



Remember, a person can only use information they know about you to find your hot buttons and use it against you if they're highly manipulative (like so many BPDs are). So don't let them know your hot buttons.



Does your BPD pick fights with you when something is wrong with him/her? Then by being a dull listener, they'll get bored and move on to someone they have a greater effect upon. I swear, it really does work.



Are you unwittingly giving them the roadmap to figure out what you're sensitive about, so they can exploit those things later on to make YOU upset when THEY are upset but can't deal with those emotions on their own like a healthy adult?



Are you offering advice or help with only the best of intentions? Well, if things go wrong, and they CAN'T blame themselves as part of BPD, who do you think they're going to blame? Are you just putting yourself in the line of eventual fire without realizing it?



If they're angry and they get you angry, then they can successfully transfer the emotions they can't cope with onto you (projection).



If they're angry and lashing out, they get relief from their inner turmoil by getting YOU upset. So don't ever show yourself getting upset. If they're upset and they can make you upset too, their goal has been achieved. I swear, as it worked for the other poster, it worked for me too-- my BPD mother rather quickly would see who was the most active listener and turn her energies there. I was no longer a means to an end; she no longer got relief from her inner pain by making me feel pain too.



Of course, one of my physical boundaries was to not do a one-on-one meeting with her again in non-public places; this played very well into Medium Chill. There's always someone more unenlightened and more of a sucker than you that they target instead. It might be an unfortunate still-enmeshed family member; it might be the waiter. But the point is, it will NOT BE YOU.



Likewise, don't especially share their joys when they're on a high. If they come to view you as a confidente/soulmate, who do you think they're going to turn to when their rage is highest and they need to foist it off onto someone else?



It's all about disengaging from playing into the messed up BPD dynamic. We often talk about boundaries around here, like only speaking once a week on the phone, or not staying overnight in their houses, or a host of other physical actions of restraint... .



... ."Medium Chill" techniques, however, are boundaries for your soul.



~ Stargazer This is the post that I have saved on my desktop on "Medium Chill".-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Logged

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Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2005, 08:00:11 AM » Last night Stargazer replied to one of my threads and mentioned compiling a list of MC Techniques.



What I have learned so far is:



1.? Have a physical distance if you can.



2.? Do not volunteer any personal information.



3.? Keep the conversation to mundane topics.(weather, etc.)



4.? Recognize the "Re-engagement/Trigger/Mind___" when it comes and maintain a flat, expressionless face.



5.? Develop an internal attitude of being responsive but not reactive/a failure to plan on the BPD's part does not constitute an emergency on YOUR part.



Have I left anything out? Anyone care to add to these "Cliff" notes on MC?



I am trying to be an A+ student!



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snaillady2

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Posts: 356 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #2 on: October 28, 2005, 08:18:58 AM » Ah, I getcha, SR.



How about



#6: do not demonstrate physical/emotional reactions to BPD conversation.--an expansion of #4 to all topics of conversation--it doesn't have to be for just the re-engagement's, etc.



--no sighs, change in tone of voice, eye rolls, blanches, etc. One person commented on the fact that although they had thought they were doing Medium Chill, an accidental recording (from ans. machine or something) of a conversation with the BPD had numerous audible sighs and verbal tics that showed there really *was* a reaction that the BPD could pick up on.



A variation on #5: be rational, not reactive. Health bad? Suggest a good dr. Car broken? Offer a mechanic's name. Nurse not around on the weekend? Schedule one. Wants you to sleep over? Have plans in the AM. Needs a check? No funds.



Another variation on #5: react to the subject, not the substance.



Think Bond, Jane bond. (the martini couldn't hurt, either!). Actually, this is kinda a good role model--suave, debonair, engaging but distant. Logged

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Posts: 547 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #3 on: October 28, 2005, 12:03:24 PM » Okay, here are a few more techniques that I learned that are related:



6. If you have a BPD relative, have caller ID. Use it. Get into the habit of letting it go into voicemail.



7. Do not return phone calls to a BPD who has troubles with phone boundaries for at least 3 hours (and better 6 or 24 hours). Break the cycle of dependency of thinking that *you* are the person at the beck-and-call whenever the Borderline sufferer has a need to freak out and wants to share it (and then blame it on someone: you).



8. Understand the effects of "Intermittent Reinforcement".



Obviously, these three tie in to each other. Interestingly enough, since I've started waiting at least 6 hours to return a call, I've noticed a couple of things: (a) the calls have significantly decreased in frequency-- whereas I used to receive several calls a day from the momster (and be the long-distance target of her various waves of discontent), now, after an adjustment period on her part where she complained about my inaccessability, she often goes weeks without calling. (Fine with me!) Also (b) EACH AND EVERY TIME I've violated this rule by picking up the phone when I see it's her and I think, "Oh, I'm in a good mood and I have the time, why not pick up" (3 times in the last 8 months), EACH AND EVERY TIME, I receive at least 2 more calls that same day PLUS another phone call the very next day. Logged

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Posts: 547 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #4 on: October 28, 2005, 12:20:03 PM » Quick comment on Item #4:



I've noticed that having a vaguely pleasant face is better than a completely flat, expressionless face. For me, I know that when my face is completely flat, I can be tight-lipped and my exasperation shows more readily-- which can "read" as disapproval. (Well, duh, I *do* disapprove of rages and other BPD behaviors... .but then again, showing that disapproval is NOT Medium Chill.) The distant, implacable small smile, though, is good in my opinion, because it reaffirms your separateness from their rage, gives no positive feedback for rages (uh, you being angry doesn't make *me* angry), and if you're not reacting to the illogical rage, than you are not an enmeshed insiderwho can be manipulated. (Of course, don't broadly grin either, because you don't want to antagonize the mentally unstable, but just a gentle "I am me, I am separate, I like myself" good natured expression is a good end goal for a default face.) Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: ParentPosts: 1023 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #5 on: October 29, 2005, 11:31:47 AM » Even if you have physical distance it won't make any difference until you find emotional distance.? If you have emotional distance you could live next door and maintain Medium Chill.



Emotional distance REQUIRES that you accept on a cellular level that your BP views you as useful or useless based on the "what have you done for me lately" criteria.? If you expect unconditional love you will self destruct.? Expect nothing and you won't be hurt.? Hope for nothing and you won't be hurt.? Give nothing (emotionally) and you won't be hurt. Logged

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Posts: 473 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 06:00:09 PM » Thank you all for teaching me this technique. In my situations, the "Medium Chill" is more workable than prolonged LC/NC. not the case for everyone, for sure. Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightPosts: 1588 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 06:50:46 PM »



Basically, the PD doesn't have the skills or maturity to deal with their own out of control emotions.



One way that they deal with them is by 'dumping' them or 'projecting' them onto us.



In simple terms, if they feel bad, and they can dump it onto us, they feel better.



A bit like a dump truck unloading at the tip.



The idea with the Medium Chill is that the gates to the old Tip (you) are firmly shut so they have to go find another tip.



Hopefully on the other side of town or interstate... .



I hope this helps and if anyone has any strategies along this line, or resources you could recommend, perhaps you could share them here. One of the more experienced members of the community that I met here years ago had some interesting things to say about why PDs try to create drama - and hence, why its important for us to learn not to engage in it.Basically, the PD doesn't have the skills or maturity to deal with their own out of control emotions.One way that they deal with them is by 'dumping' them or 'projecting' them onto us.In simple terms, if they feel bad, and they can dump it onto us, they feel better.A bit like a dump truck unloading at the tip.The idea with the Medium Chill is that the gates to the old Tip (you) are firmly shut so they have to go find another tip.Hopefully on the other side of town or interstate... .I hope this helps and if anyone has any strategies along this line, or resources you could recommend, perhaps you could share them here. Logged

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Site DirectorGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partnerPosts: 8281 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 06:57:50 PM » Medium Chill does not become passive aggression.



As defined in the first few posts, one could easily conclude some inherent aggression in the intent - but that should not the intent here. The root of this concept and others like it is to end the cycle of conflict. This is called "satisficing", a recognition that in some situations doing "just good-enough" is far better than the doing the "ideal".



Here is a video based on Alan Fruzzetti, PhD work which is different description of a similar idea that is used on the Staying board. Dr. Fruzetti is a professor at the University of Nevada and he is the educational director for the National Educational Alliance for BPD - an organization of the most respected mental health professionals in this field (BPD):



1.16 | Communicate - S.E.T. (Support, Empathy and Truth)



Viewing the video may help keep it all in perspective and in balance.



I suspect those that have been most successful with this tool know the difference between ending the cycle of conflict and passive aggression.



Ending the cycle of conflict can certainly be a more civilized way to deal with a parent suffering from BPD than no contact.



Just some thoughts



Like so many of these things, it's important to be mindful of what you are doing. In this case, to be careful thatdoes not becomeAs defined in the first few posts, one could easily conclude some inherent aggression in the intent - but that should not the intent here.This is called "", a recognition that in some situations doing "is far better than the doing the "".Here is a video based on Alan Fruzzetti, PhD work which is different description of a similar idea that is used on the Staying board. Dr. Fruzetti is a professor at the University of Nevada and he is the educational director for the National Educational Alliance for BPD - an organization of the most respected mental health professionals in this field (BPD):Viewing the video may help keep it all in perspective and in balance.I suspect those that have been most successful with this tool know the difference betweenandEnding the cycle of conflict can certainly be a more civilized way to deal with a parent suffering from BPD than no contact.Just some thoughts « Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 07:14:22 PM by Harri » Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightPosts: 1588 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 01:13:49 AM » I found that a useful tactic was what I call 'Missile Diversion'.



If I was on the phone with her and I could sense she wanted to rant and rave, and I was worried she'd make me the target, I simply diverted the conversation by asking about something trivial that was annoying her.



i.e. 'How's your noisy neighbors? Any progress?'



She'd then proceed to froth and carry on about that, rather than whatever target she'd been heading towards.



I made a point of asking in a caring and concerned voice, and then could just make non-committal noises like 'ooh' and 'ah'.



While she ranted and rambled I'd read the newspaper or water the plants or something. It was always handy to say early in the conversation while she was still calm, 'I'm expecting a call from my dentist/client etc' so that when I'd had enough I could say 'Is that my call waiting or yours?' Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: marriedPosts: 1569 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 10:07:12 AM » This technique doesn't work in my case, it only encourages her to keep trying harder. I'm better off NC, for now at least. Plus, I just really, really don't want her in my life. Nothing good comes from it, I feel yucky inside just seeing her name pop up on my caller i.d. Immediately I'm irratated! Just like with their disorder, everything is black and white, all good or all bad, to protect myself I either have to be all in or all out. And out feels much better in my case, it only encourages her to keep trying harder. I'm better off NC, for now at least.Plus, I just really, really don't want her in my life. Nothing good comes from it, I feel yucky inside just seeing her name pop up on my caller i.d. Immediately I'm irratated! Just like with their disorder, everything is black and white, all good or all bad, to protect myself I either have to be all in or all out. And out feels much better Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: Married 18 years.Posts: 2485 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 10:33:17 AM » I had my first therapy session this morning. I think we got down to business pretty quickly, and I'm satisfied so far. I'm trying to take this very seriously, as in like a college class in "ME." With that in mind, my first assignment was thinking about what it means to respond rather than react.



He likened it to being a puppet on a string. When my uBPDm or en folks pull a string, do I LET them yank me, or do I be more like a Pinnochio in effect, and say, eh, maybe I just won't lift my arm right now, thank you!



So, I'm to think about what I've been doing to react, and what I've done to respond, and think about making the response idea list a little longer.



We talk about this a lot on here... .where's the emergency? Stop and think about before you call, email, whatever. Logged

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What is your sexual orientation: StraightPosts: 636 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #13 on: March 07, 2010, 07:11:01 AM » Full Catastrophe Living: Using the Wisdom of Your Body and Mind to Face Stress, Pain, and Illness by Jon Kabat-Zinn (Author) PhD, the book on mindfulness meditation, as Skip points out, and I think you can apply it to life in general and any particular challenge in, uh, particular, triggers, especially - they are the epitome of reacting, of blind reflex, and learning how to notice it, defuse and manage it and then think about what the stressor is and how to deal with it in a lucid way.



Also works with difficult clients I've come across this responding rather than reacting thing in reading Living theby Jon Kabat-Zinn (Author) PhD, the book on mindfulness meditation, as Skip points out, and I think you can apply it to life in general and any particular challenge in, uh, particular, triggers, especially - they are the epitome of reacting, of blind reflex, and learning how to notice it, defuse and manage it and then think about what the stressor is and how to deal with it in a lucid way.Also works with difficult clients Logged

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formerly salomeGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: ParentPosts: 1465 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #14 on: March 08, 2010, 08:36:49 AM » I think it's true - everyone tends to respond automatically rather than taking a moment to absorb a situation and think about a variety of options. Hence the typical advice to count to ten when you feel yourself getting angry, etc. I guess it's just especially useful for us because so many of our learned responses were absorbed from seriously disordered people, and are 180 degrees from anything we would decide for ourselves!



The hyper-analyzing sounds kind of anxious! It sounds like some "should" statements are creeping in, like having more options leaves you open to more second-guessing yourself for those paths you didn't choose. Ideally I would think taking this extra time to think about how you will respond would let you simply be aware of those other options and decide for yourself, without having this critical voice intervene. It's hard to make the shift from what is often an emotionally loaded situation in which you want to make the best choice to a more objective problem-solving approach where you see the pros and cons of different strategies.



This all reminds me of recently when I accidentally dropped my glove after paying to go into the subway station! I was so annoyed, angrily exited the subway area to get my glove and resentfully paid again, only to realize after being in possession of both gloves again that if I had simply waited for someone else to come up, I could have asked them to get the glove for me when they entered, and avoided paying twice. I was just so annoyed at having dropped my glove on the other side of the entranceway that I just reacted instinctively rather than thinking about my options. Logged

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Retired StaffGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: ParentRelationship status: marriedPosts: 3115 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #15 on: March 08, 2010, 02:07:26 PM »



I was putting my DD to bed and we were cuddling after her story. So a nice, quiet, relaxed time. My DH was at that moment fixing a minor plumbing problem. I could hear him banging away with various tools and could sense the waves of frustration coming off of him from all the way across the house. I know that plumbing repairs aren't his favorite (and who could blame him!). He and DD had also had a conflict earlier in the day, which I had somewhat inadvertently made worse by triangulating. (Hadn't had a chance yet to discuss what had happened with DH, but I knew we were both feeling unsettled.)



For me, being in bed hearing sounds of banging and sensing someone's frustration and other negative emotions is highly triggering. This is a childhood scene that played out over and over, and it never went well. The scene would be of my parents fighting, or my mother having a meltdown of some sort; if I went to intervene I would get the brunt of someone's anger. If I didn't, I would be accused of being selfish and uncaring and I had feelings of guilt as well as strong fear.



Lying there, I felt... .guilt and fear. I also had an instinct to rush out and try to comfort DH. I knew that those feelings were reactive; they were based on past scripts and memories.



First thing I did was acknowledge what I was feeling and thinking. Fear, guilt, instinct to rescue.



Then I assessed how well those fit with the current situation. I decided not very well. DH is perfectly capable of completing a plumbing job with my "help" (which would not be any help, trust me . He just needed to get it done and be allowed to be frustrated. I hadn't done anything to warrant feeling guilty. And I had no reason to be afraid. DH might be frustrated with the job and annoyed/upset about earlier in the day, but that wasn't anything to fear. We're good at working together to solve problems.



So I acknowledged my thoughts and feelings, assessed them, found them not to be fitting to the current circumstances, and then decided to try to change them.



I've been practicing an exercise described by Dan Siegel in Mindsight (see



I tried that exercise for a while. I sank down and tried to center myself under the water. I visualized it and also focused on my breathing and the direct sensations around me, the softness of the bed, the calm breathing of my DD, who was already asleep. Then I directed my awareness to the sounds of the banging and my own feelings, and imagined them like a storm. I could see it, but I was calm.



This exercise really helped a lot. I was able to detach a lot from the reactive feelings (guilt, fear, urge to rescue). Later, after DH finished his repair and had a chance to relax a bit, he and I talked about the situation with DD. We probably need to talk more, but the dialogue is open and we were both calm and receptive.



Hope that's not too much, just thought it was a good example as the process helped me a lot.



B&W I have an example of reactive versus responsive to share.I was putting my DD to bed and we were cuddling after her story. So a nice, quiet, relaxed time. My DH was at that moment fixing a minor plumbing problem. I could hear him banging away with various tools and could sense the waves of frustration coming off of him from all the way across the house. I know that plumbing repairs aren't his favorite (and who could blame him!). He and DD had also had a conflict earlier in the day, which I had somewhat inadvertently made worse by triangulating. (Hadn't had a chance yet to discuss what had happened with DH, but I knew we were both feeling unsettled.)For me, being in bed hearing sounds of banging and sensing someone's frustration and other negative emotions is highly triggering. This is a childhood scene that played out over and over, and it never went well. The scene would be of my parents fighting, or my mother having a meltdown of some sort; if I went to intervene I would get the brunt of someone's anger. If I didn't, I would be accused of being selfish and uncaring and I had feelings of guilt as well as strong fear.Lying there, I felt... .guilt and fear. I also had an instinct to rush out and try to comfort DH. I knew that those feelings were reactive; they were based on past scripts and memories.First thing I did was acknowledge what I was feeling and thinking. Fear, guilt, instinct to rescue.Then I assessed how well those fit with the current situation. I decided not very well. DH is perfectly capable of completing a plumbing job with my "help" (which would not be any help, trust me . He just needed to get it done and be allowed to be frustrated. I hadn't done anything to warrant feeling guilty. And I had no reason to be afraid. DH might be frustrated with the job and annoyed/upset about earlier in the day, but that wasn't anything to fear. We're good at working together to solve problems.So I acknowledged my thoughts and feelings, assessed them, found them not to be fitting to the current circumstances, and then decided to try to change them.I've been practicing an exercise described by Dan Siegel in(see www.drdansiegel.com/ ). He has a number of metaphors for finding your neutral place of awareness and directing your awareness toward your own reactions without being overwhelmed by them. One metaphor really resonates with me. It's the image of being under the sea in a calm, quiet place looking up to the surface of the water. Thoughts and feelings play on the surface like a storm, creating waves, but you observe them from underneath, where it is calm.I tried that exercise for a while. I sank down and tried to center myself under the water. I visualized it and also focused on my breathing and the direct sensations around me, the softness of the bed, the calm breathing of my DD, who was already asleep. Then I directed my awareness to the sounds of the banging and my own feelings, and imagined them like a storm. I could see it, but I was calm.This exercise really helped a lot. I was able to detach a lot from the reactive feelings (guilt, fear, urge to rescue). Later, after DH finished his repair and had a chance to relax a bit, he and I talked about the situation with DD. We probably need to talk more, but the dialogue is open and we were both calm and receptive.Hope that's not too much, just thought it was a good example as the process helped me a lot.B&W Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: Married 18 years.Posts: 2485 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 04:31:27 PM »



Good thoughts about how to respond with boundaries without showing him some sort of contract or list of rules of engagement. That usually just ticks them right off. I've discussed this before. How do I respond appropriately going from NC to LC, without getting right back in the same mess as I was before. Excellent follow up.



I love that one, too, B&W. That is a great visual that I can really use, in a lot of situations.Good thoughts about how to respond with boundaries without showing him some sort of contract or list of rules of engagement. That usually just ticks them right off. I've discussed this before. How do I respond appropriately going from NC to LC, without getting right back in the same mess as I was before. Excellent follow up. Logged

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Retired StaffGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partnerRelationship status: Happily living with myselfPosts: 2828Don't look outside for the answers within. Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 06:47:14 AM » BMama, can we think about something for a few minutes? I dont know you very well, but lets just pretend "as if" I did, and the following were true.



Lets say you were a fashion designer by trade, and you liked to go to bed early. You enjoyed drinking coffee in the mornings, and reading your paper. For dinner, you prefered to eat healthy, and didn't tolerate junk food. You also, dont like to drink.



Now, lets say I came to visit you, and we are old friends. I am thanking you in advance for allowing me to stay with you, saving me the cost of a hotel room. Thanks old friend.



I get there the first night, and want to keep you up talking. We stay up 4 hours past your bedtime. The next morning, we get up, and you grab your paper, and start the coffee pot. I start telling you how coffee is so bad for you, and that the paper is run by the government, and what lies are printed in there. I completely down everything about coffee and the paper.



You tell me that you need to get ready for work, and I start telling you how you should quit the fashion design business, because it is worthless, and you should do what I do. I completely dis your job, and your work.



You go to work, and then, come home.



I meet you at the door with a pitcher of margaritas, and tell you that we are having pizza and hot wings for dinner, and that I made them. I say that we are gonna drink till we pass out, and that we are going to stay up late doing it.



How do you feel after the first day, and then, how do you feel after a week of this? Logged



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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: Married 18 years.Posts: 2485 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 06:50:45 AM »



How's that for a short answer?



How's that for a short answer? Logged

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Retired StaffGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partnerRelationship status: Happily living with myselfPosts: 2828Don't look outside for the answers within. Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 06:51:24 AM » I was kinda hoping for a little bit more to work with. Logged



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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: Married 18 years.Posts: 2485 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 06:52:54 AM » Okay, I'd want to kick their a... .butt out. But, would I? Hmmm... .



I see where you are going though. Good analogy! Logged

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Retired StaffGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightWho in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partnerRelationship status: Happily living with myselfPosts: 2828Don't look outside for the answers within. Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 07:02:41 AM »



Ill spell it out anyway.



My lifestyle is OK for me, as it is the way I have chosen to live it. Your lifestyle is OK for you because it is the way you have chosen to live it. Neither is right, neither is wrong. You will find tons of people that dont agree with either of our lifestyles.



The problem occurs when I try to force my lifestyle on you, or you try to force your lifestyle on me. If we are truly friends, we will accept each other for what we each are, and put up boundaries. (Notice I thanked you in advance for letting me stay with you, because if you stuck to your boundaries, there would be no way in hell you would have let me stay with you. You know how I am. )



What happens with our parents is exactly the same dynamic. We have to accept them for who they are, rather than trying to change them. We have to understand who they are, and what they do, so as to establish boundaries to protect the relationship. Then, we have to enforce those boundaries to maintain the relationship. If those boundaries aren't respected, the relationship dissolves.



Once I saw my role in my parents and my relationship, I could stop "reacting" and start responding, like you have said. I wanted them to change, but I didnt like someone trying to change me. I had to give the same consideration to them that I expected. I wanted them to not change me, but, I was trying to change them. Reacting at its finest.



You do?Ill spell it out anyway.My lifestyle is OK for me, as it is the way I have chosen to live it. Your lifestyle is OK for you because it is the way you have chosen to live it. Neither is right, neither is wrong. You will find tons of people that dont agree with either of our lifestyles.The problem occurs when I try to force my lifestyle on you, or you try to force your lifestyle on me. If we are truly friends, we will accept each other for what we each are, and put up boundaries. (Notice I thanked you in advance for letting me stay with you, because if you stuck to your boundaries, there would be no way in hell you would have let me stay with you. You know how I am.What happens with our parents is exactly the same dynamic. We have to accept them for who they are, rather than trying to change them. We have to understand who they are, and what they do, so as to establish boundaries to protect the relationship. Then, we have to enforce those boundaries to maintain the relationship. If those boundaries aren't respected, the relationship dissolves.Once I saw my role in my parents and my relationship, I could stop "reacting" and start responding, like you have said. I wanted them to change, but I didnt like someone trying to change me. I had to give the same consideration to them that I expected. I wanted them to not change me, but, I was trying to change them. Reacting at its finest. Logged



BMama

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: Married 18 years.Posts: 2485 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #22 on: March 09, 2010, 01:16:02 PM » I was on to you, PDQ;-)



Radical acceptance. Yep.



I think the problem with BPDs is a lot of times, the relationship breakdown ultimately happens... .if you have any kind of boundaries at all. At the very least, it's not a "normal" relationship under those circumstances. It's not like boundaries and acceptance (or releasing as myPyneappleDaysputs it) are magic wands, LOL.



As for the person, I'd probably not do those things. Or maybe I'd give the lifestyle a try just to be open minded, and hope that I don't get sucked in for the whole week. If so, after I feel like crap 3 or 4 days in, I'd say, "Hey, this works great for you, but it's not how I function well. You may continue, but I'm going back."



The difference between that and BPD (at least parents) we haven't known OUR lives to begin with, to know what is healthy and normal... .otherwise it would be much, much easier to set boundaries. This fits more with maybe a significant other BPD situation. As much as I try, I've not been able to change things about my hubby that drive me crazy. I learned to live with his kooky traits, and work around them, or put up with them in that I have my own that drive him crazy, too.



Thanks for the perspective.



I lost track of where I was in the discussion anyway. I guess we got to not reacting after a period of NC, and what you do if you feel that after "releasing" folks to be who they are... .what do you do with that knowledge? For me, I'd prefer very LC for the rest of my life... .how do I REALLY acknowledge and accept THAT.



My once again smart daughter told me when the drama was amping up in December: "MOM what would you tell me if this were one of my friends at school?" Obviously, I'd suggest to her to stay away from them. But, I said, "It's different because it's family." She said, "No it is not." I'm pretty pathetic right that I teach my kids right, but can't walk the talk.



Like I said before... .even with the "blood is thicker than water" handicap points family gets, they still are not people I want to be around much as I think about it. I have an older uncle, the oldest of my dad's brothers. He comes around for holidays and summer picnics, or well, he did when we were still getting together as a family before my grandparents died and everyone decided they hated each other.



He's not social with any of us. If you call and need something or whatever, he'll answer and be polite, and help. He's not an initiator, and tends to keep to himself, and therefore out of the drama. My mother thinks of him as a snob. He has his church and HIS family and screw the rest of us, right? That's her drama talking, I mean.



But, he does generally stay out of the fray and above things... .so I guess I just need to start being the "snob" in effect. Logged

Backtome09

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: New mate (non)Posts: 710 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #23 on: March 11, 2010, 04:29:00 PM » ... .



BMama Good luck. PDQuick get out of my head... .BMamaGood luck. Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: singlePosts: 1678 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #24 on: March 20, 2010, 03:41:37 PM » Thanks for sharing this strategy in such a clear way! Love the name, too: "Medium Chill." I've been in very low contact for over a year now, but I have to make a trip this summer that will include spending time with BPD/NPD mom whether I want to or not. I will have to have at least some verbal exchange with her, so, I'll keep these techniques in mind: do not share personal information and do not react to either negative or positive comments on the BPD's part. Just be polite, neutral, and do not engage.



I think of that as "robot-zombie mode", which was how I spent most of my first 30 years of life, except that I am now the one in control of the "robot-zombie" instead of BPD/NPD mom.



-LOAnnie Logged

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightPosts: 52 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 10:45:35 PM » I do use some of that techniques and it really does work. There are some that I haven't heard of and will try when I can. Thanks for posting this Logged

Jemima

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What is your sexual orientation: StraightPosts: 943 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #26 on: September 22, 2010, 07:13:51 AM » also think that an important point about Medium Chill is that it is MEDIUM. Having been raised in a family of extremes, and probably having to learn from scratch how to take the middle road on anything, it's hard for us to stay "medium."



Medium Chill is not The Big Chill. This is because of precisely the issue that you brought up --- that noticeably freezing them out will probably trigger an outburst of some sort. However, allowing ourselves to "warm up" to them will also trigger an outburst. Think of our BPD relatives as a volatile chemical that must be kept within a certain temperature range in order or it will explode!



I'm wondering how many other people feel this way though ... .I practice Medium Chill with my mom as much as I can (although admittedly occasionally I get sucked into drama, probably because her problems are milder than most on this board, so we can go long periods without problems and then BAM!). But my dad died five years ago and I am Medium Chill with my mom, and some times I feel kind of ... .disoriented. My parents raised me to be highly dependent on them ... .and now that Dad is gone and I have put emotional space between myself and Mom ... .I wonder if I even know how to have good family relationships. My kids are growing up (two are grown already), and it feels like my husband is the main supportive relationship I have. This seems wrong, to be down to one main social support.



There's a sense in which NC wouldn't make me feel as disoriented as Medium Chill. Just wondering if anybody else can relate to this or if I am just being weird. Logged

30plusyears

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Gender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: DivorcedPosts: 147 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #27 on: September 22, 2010, 07:32:11 AM » Yeah, Medium Chill is hard to learn, but I saw this post over 3 years ago during the worst of the divorce. I had to APPLY myself to this technique consciously, and I've used it every since. It works. It drives BPXW crazy, but it works FOR ME. Still... .it's hard to appear calm when seething inside. No doubt.



As a childen of a BPD sufferer, you've developed the Medium Chill in a different way from me, but SIMILAR to the way "our" (BPXW and I) sons have. My elder son (S23) has always seemed to have better boundaries and reactions than me, and my youngest (S22) has NO boundaries at all. But he is learning how to cope/deal with BPXW. Elder son always made himself scarce when ugly situations developed, and the only time he is even remotedly interested in discussing his OWN difficulties with (his) mom (my BPXW), he has become so frustrated that he can't make a whole sentence. S21 yet harbors some hope that his mom actually loves and cares about him, and he infrequently "tests" that hope, but ALWAYS to his disappointment. I've been silently observing them for sereral years now. They handle things (outwardly) much better than I ever did, and are able to "keep quiet" much more consistently than I am. Logged

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What is your sexual orientation: StraightPosts: 943 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #28 on: September 22, 2010, 09:24:19 AM » I think that it is totally different when you are dealing with your parent, because the parent has always been the one with the power and "Medium Chill" effectively sucks the power out of their game-playing. When it comes to a child with dysregulated emotions (especially if your child is still growing), you learn the validation techniques etc because you are in a more powerful position and may be able to effect some change if you learn better how to communicate. Also, with a spouse situation you have more power than you do over a parent.



However, I will say that we talk a lot about "detaching with love" over on the parenting board too. We use different words --- and we necessarily stay more engaged with a child than we would with a parent --- but "Medium Chill" and "detaching with love" may be the same emotional place. We do what we need to do to stop taking their out-of-control emotions personally and also accept that we can't MAKE our pwBPD be different.



Whether they are our child, our spouse, or our parent, somehow getting US upset is rewarding to the pwBPD. Because we are in a position of relative power with an offspring, they often can see US as the persecutor ... .and feel justified in being ugly to us and feel rewarded when they succeed in getting us upset. I would think that this is also true when the pwBPD is a spouse. And it is not that much different than when the pwBPD is a parent. It's just that ... .well, it is particularly obvious with a parent that nothing we do is going to change them. Logged

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formerly harmonyGender:What is your sexual orientation: StraightRelationship status: divorced from a ubpd and aspd/dv situationPosts: 4049 Re: Medium Chill - respond, don't react « Reply #29 on: November 16, 2010, 08:37:01 PM »



WiseMind



When they lash out – show no anger.



When they are nice – do not reciprocate.



Be distant and flat in both cases. When they sense they cannot manipulate your reaction, they tend to leave you alone.



Tell them nothing, ask for nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries. WiseMind gives no appearance of withdrawal, so they can’t accuse you of giving them the cold shoulder. You are there, you’re just not present to them in an emotional way.



WiseMind is effective because they no longer feel safe in their ability to generate chaos. Now you’re back in control. It takes a bit of practice as you learn o disconnect from them emotionally. It’s about more than just boundaries. To put it another way, it’s a two-part process with a specific attitude:



1) Never share personal information about yourself



2) Never get involved in their problems/drama



Attitude: pleasant, modest, implacably calm – never showing anger or compassionate involvement; paying attention, but not too much attention, while never violating items one or two above.



Remember, a person can only use information they know about you to find your hot buttons and use them against you if they are highly manipulative. So don’t let them know your hot buttons.



Does your personality-disordered loved one pick fights with you when something is wrong with him/her? When you practice WiseMind, you, in essence, become a dull listener. They get bored and move on to someone they have a greater effect on. I swear, it really does work. They will rather quickly see who is the most active listener and turn their energies there.



Skip put this on this site awhile ago... .When they lash out – show no anger.When they are nice – do not reciprocate.Be distant and flat in both cases. When they sense they cannot manipulate your reaction, they tend to leave you alone.Tell them nothing, ask for nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries. WiseMind gives no appearance of withdrawal, so they can’t accuse you of giving them the cold shoulder. You are there, you’re just not present to them in an emotional way.WiseMind is effective because they no longer feel safe in their ability to generate chaos. Now you’re back in control. It takes a bit of practice as you learn o disconnect from them emotionally. It’s about more than just boundaries. To put it another way, it’s a two-part process with a specific attitude:1) Never share personal information about yourself2) Never get involved in their problems/dramaAttitude: pleasant, modest, implacably calm – never showing anger or compassionate involvement; paying attention, but not too much attention, while never violating items one or two above.Remember, a person can only use information they know about you to find your hot buttons and use them against you if they are highly manipulative. So don’t let them know your hot buttons.Does your personality-disordered loved one pick fights with you when something is wrong with him/her? When you practice WiseMind, you, in essence, become a dull listener. They get bored and move on to someone they have a greater effect on. I swear, it really does work. They will rather quickly see who is the most active listener and turn their energies there. Logged