Teoita Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Italy 11896 Posts #21 That is something we thought; the issue with that idea is it doesn't address the economy difference between 3 or 4 bases. Ultimately, it's Blizzard's job to make the call, all we can do is study the alternatives carefully and give the best feedback we can. Moderator Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Kruxxen Profile Joined April 2010 United States 149 Posts #22 Well Blizzard has shown that if there is a time they are willing to experiment it's now. So hopefully we'll see some different variations of the economy, even if it is only temporary to see how it plays out.

ZeromuS Profile Blog Joined October 2010 Canada 12919 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-04 21:22:59 #23 On April 05 2015 05:49 digmouse wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 05 2015 04:21 ZeromuS wrote:

On April 05 2015 04:05 digmouse wrote:

Agree on the expansion part, it feels very much unlike in BW or even HotS where you should be planning to expand to benefit from it, it actually feels rushy to expand just because you are 100% going to die if you do not.



Give us another day or two and we will have part 1 of an article on the LotV economy examining this issue specifically with some in game numbers to support it.



Part 2 will examine the 12 worker start.



I personally believe that there is a viable alternative economic model that supports rewarding expansion based play and offering deeper strategic choices while also speeding up the early game without artificially cutting out the extreme early game. (The 6-12 worker period of time).

Give us another day or two and we will have part 1 of an article on the LotV economy examining this issue specifically with some in game numbers to support it.Part 2 will examine the 12 worker start.I personally believe that there is a viable alternative economic model that supports rewarding expansion based play and offering deeper strategic choices while also speeding up the early game without artificially cutting out the extreme early game. (The 6-12 worker period of time).

I would prefer keeping a relatively high starting worker count but keep the HotS resource count, 8-10 worker start maybe? I don't think it is realistic to expect Blizzard to change more fundamental things like mining speed tho.



Under the current model expanding and macro doesn't feel like RTS "resource management", because you only want to expand fast, instead of expand smart and strategically. When expanding becomes a attempt at survival instead of actually "expanding" your economy, the game basically imbalances itself. I would prefer keeping a relatively high starting worker count but keep the HotS resource count, 8-10 worker start maybe? I don't think it is realistic to expect Blizzard to change more fundamental things like mining speed tho.Under the current model expanding and macro doesn't feel like RTS "resource management", because you only want to expand fast, instead of expand smart and strategically. When expanding becomes a attempt at survival instead of actually "expanding" your economy, the game basically imbalances itself.



The biggest problem is that there is no incentive for a 4th base in the HotS economy.



A three base mineral income is the same as 4 base mineral income because of the number of workers you have mining.



16 workers per base and 6 on gas on 3 base is 66 workers. Adding a 4th base you can choose to add 6 more in gas but adding another 16 (optimal mining) results in 88 workers.



The problem here is your army is very small. All one player needs to do is turtle on 3 bases for optimal income and cost effectively trade while maintaining three bases of mining. The other player could have 6 bases but their income rate remains the same as the player on 3 bases if they keep a similar worker count. This means if both players are mining 1000 minerals a minute for example, and the expanding player is trading 600 minerals a minute (of unit value) for 300 minerals a minute (of unit value of the turtler). In this scenario the net income of the player who is harassing is 400 minerals a minute and the other player has a net value of 700 minerals a minute. Now, if you have 1200 minerals a minute mining for the other player and 1000 for the turtler the net values even out! Meaning the turtling player isnt build a better bank than the aggressive player making the trades if not even, more impactful for the player who is expanding with map control. This is why we see protoss starve out in HotS against Swarmhosts (before the locust change). The toss trades inefficiently but their greater base count means nothing as the zerg makes builds a bank at all times whereas the toss player is always eating into his theoretical bank!



Alternatively if you can make 4 bases with the same number of workers on 3 provide better income that would encourage more bases and more harassment to shut down those bases as the 3 base player would be outstripped of his economic even footing so quickly that just holding 3 or 4 bases vs 6 is no longer a viable option. Add to this the removal in LotV of units that force stalemate map positions for the most part and I think a vastly different economic model would be a huge benefit, but alas, this is just rambling at this point.



Back to work with all my passion! The biggest problem is that there is no incentive for a 4th base in the HotS economy.A three base mineral income is the same as 4 base mineral income because of the number of workers you have mining.16 workers per base and 6 on gas on 3 base is 66 workers. Adding a 4th base you can choose to add 6 more in gas but adding another 16 (optimal mining) results in 88 workers.The problem here is your army is very small. All one player needs to do is turtle on 3 bases for optimal income and cost effectively trade while maintaining three bases of mining. The other player could have 6 bases but their income rate remains the same as the player on 3 bases if they keep a similar worker count. This means if both players are mining 1000 minerals a minute for example, and the expanding player is trading 600 minerals a minute (of unit value) for 300 minerals a minute (of unit value of the turtler). In this scenario the net income of the player who is harassing is 400 minerals a minute and the other player has a net value of 700 minerals a minute. Now, if you have 1200 minerals a minute mining for the other player and 1000 for the turtler the net values even out! Meaning the turtling player isnt build a better bank than the aggressive player making the trades if not even, more impactful for the player who is expanding with map control. This is why we see protoss starve out in HotS against Swarmhosts (before the locust change). The toss trades inefficiently but their greater base count means nothing as the zerg makes builds a bank at all times whereas the toss player is always eating into his theoretical bank!Alternatively if you can make 4 bases with the same number of workers on 3 provide better income that would encourage more bases and more harassment to shut down those bases as the 3 base player would be outstripped of his economic even footing so quickly that just holding 3 or 4 bases vs 6 is no longer a viable option. Add to this the removal in LotV of units that force stalemate map positions for the most part and I think a vastly different economic model would be a huge benefit, but alas, this is just rambling at this point.Back to work with all my passion! Strategy Overwatch is awesome | Support is the best role | @TL_ZeromuS | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_

Killmouse Profile Joined August 2010 Austria 5688 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-04 21:24:29 #24 I dont like the worker change , since the game starts pretty fast and casual players are likely overwhelmed by the pace, it's better for the viewing experience but I don't think we will get any new players since the game gets even harder in the beginning phase + we will lose a lot of early game cheeses and proxys , mvp vs squirtle any1 yo

Fran_ Profile Joined June 2010 United States 951 Posts #25 On April 05 2015 06:16 ZeromuS wrote:Back to work with all my passion!



Very interesting work. Congrats! Very interesting work. Congrats!

Destructicon Profile Blog Joined September 2011 4637 Posts #26 Do you think that if we give them enough feedback they might be convinced to give the BW economic model a try? Writer Never give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC

Odowan Paleolithic Profile Blog Joined May 2013 United States 230 Posts #27 On April 05 2015 07:51 Destructicon wrote:

Do you think that if we give them enough feedback they might be convinced to give the BW economic model a try?



I think without changing other statistics the current harassment will be too strong as each worker is more valuable

. I think without changing other statistics the current harassment will be too strong as each worker is more valuable I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.

ArrozConLeche Profile Joined December 2010 Peru 41 Posts #28 First off, I have not played the beta yet. However, just from reading and watching streams I can conclude that the 12 worker change has indeed increased the pace of the game and limited players' reactions, to the point of making expanding dull. In other words, expanding has become an unplanned move that need no thought, like creating workers; most of us dont think about creating workers, rather we built them impulsevly UNLESS we are all-inning.

I think what blizzard intended with Legacy of the Void, is to make pro and beginner levels stand out. And in the long run, this will be the case as it was in broodwar. No longer you will have a 50apm player defeat a 200apm player because of how quickly you have to be in order to keep up with the never ending mineral surplus.



One last comment I wanted to make is that, I know this is a game, an RTS genre to be exact and as such it should be about strategies and everything. However, this game is also an e-sport, if anyone out there wants it to actually be something related to a "sport", then you should be supporting blizzard's move to speed up the game, thus forcing people to become faster and faster with their hands. I know that this game has to also appeal to casual gamers and this is why blizzard has a ranking system.....Moreoever, a real sport is about being mentally and physically fit and this is why I support blizzard's 12 worker change.

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10250 Posts #29 Good work guys, can't wait to get in myself to contribute ! AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

Fanatic-Templar Profile Joined February 2010 Canada 4327 Posts #30 On April 05 2015 06:16 ZeromuS wrote:

The problem here is your army is very small.



This is only tangentially related, but it touches on one of my personal bugbears. What do you think of the fact that the average unit supply cost has gone up in StarCraft 2 compared to Brood War? Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Roaches and Hydralisks cost 2 supply instead of 1 for their closest Brood War equivalent, Siege Tanks and Banshees cost 3 instead of 2, Brood Lords cost 4 instead of 2, Ultralisks cost 6 instead of 4...



I apologise if this is not the correct place to ask, but does this not also affect this issue of army sizes and replenishment? This is only tangentially related, but it touches on one of my personal bugbears. What do you think of the fact that the average unit supply cost has gone up in StarCraft 2 compared to Brood War? Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Roaches and Hydralisks cost 2 supply instead of 1 for their closest Brood War equivalent, Siege Tanks and Banshees cost 3 instead of 2, Brood Lords cost 4 instead of 2, Ultralisks cost 6 instead of 4...I apologise if this is not the correct place to ask, but does this not also affect this issue of army sizes and replenishment? I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.

Whitewing Profile Joined October 2010 United States 7480 Posts #31 On April 05 2015 07:54 ArrozConLeche wrote:

First off, I have not played the beta yet. However, just from reading and watching streams I can conclude that the 12 worker change has indeed increased the pace of the game and limited players' reactions, to the point of making expanding dull. In other words, expanding has become an unplanned move that need no thought, like creating workers; most of us dont think about creating workers, rather we built them impulsevly UNLESS we are all-inning.

I think what blizzard intended with Legacy of the Void, is to make pro and beginner levels stand out. And in the long run, this will be the case as it was in broodwar. No longer you will have a 50apm player defeat a 200apm player because of how quickly you have to be in order to keep up with the never ending mineral surplus.



One last comment I wanted to make is that, I know this is a game, an RTS genre to be exact and as such it should be about strategies and everything. However, this game is also an e-sport, if anyone out there wants it to actually be something related to a "sport", then you should be supporting blizzard's move to speed up the game, thus forcing people to become faster and faster with their hands. I know that this game has to also appeal to casual gamers and this is why blizzard has a ranking system.....Moreoever, a real sport is about being mentally and physically fit and this is why I support blizzard's 12 worker change.



In brood war, Flash was considered average to slow on APM, he was nowhere near the fastest player around, but he was the best, specifically because APM wasn't nearly as important as you think it is.



And nobody wants ESPORTS to be exactly like sports, if you want that, just go outside and play soccer (football to non-Americans) In brood war, Flash was considered average to slow on APM, he was nowhere near the fastest player around, but he was the best, specifically because APM wasn't nearly as important as you think it is.And nobody wants ESPORTS to be exactly like sports, if you want that, just go outside and play soccer (football to non-Americans) Strategy "You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John

Teoita Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Italy 11896 Posts #32 Also when you speed up the game this much as dwf pointed out the room to actually strategize becomes lesser and lesser, removing a huge part of the game. BW is the most competitive esport ever, yet it does give players to make decisions. Moderator Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Odowan Paleolithic Profile Blog Joined May 2013 United States 230 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-04 23:22:00 #33 On April 05 2015 07:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 05 2015 06:16 ZeromuS wrote:

The problem here is your army is very small.



This is only tangentially related, but it touches on one of my personal bugbears. What do you think of the fact that the average unit supply cost has gone up in StarCraft 2 compared to Brood War? Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Roaches and Hydralisks cost 2 supply instead of 1 for their closest Brood War equivalent, Siege Tanks and Banshees cost 3 instead of 2, Brood Lords cost 4 instead of 2, Ultralisks cost 6 instead of 4...



I apologise if this is not the correct place to ask, but does this not also affect this issue of army sizes and replenishment? This is only tangentially related, but it touches on one of my personal bugbears. What do you think of the fact that the average unit supply cost has gone up in StarCraft 2 compared to Brood War? Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Roaches and Hydralisks cost 2 supply instead of 1 for their closest Brood War equivalent, Siege Tanks and Banshees cost 3 instead of 2, Brood Lords cost 4 instead of 2, Ultralisks cost 6 instead of 4...I apologise if this is not the correct place to ask, but does this not also affect this issue of army sizes and replenishment?



If roaches cost 1 supply should immortals be 2 supply?



At 23/26 protoss rush out their first Oracle. If Oracle cost 2 they can make another Oracle with minor adjustment. A 2 supply void ray means protoss can build 3 void ray without adding a pylon which does have a build time.



Supply has been used as a limit on how fast one can build cheap weak units . If roaches cost 1 supply should immortals be 2 supply?At 23/26 protoss rush out their first Oracle. If Oracle cost 2 they can make another Oracle with minor adjustment. A 2 supply void ray means protoss can build 3 void ray without adding a pylon which does have a build time.Supply has been used as a limit on how fast one can build cheap weak units . I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.

Teoita Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Italy 11896 Posts #34 On April 05 2015 07:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 05 2015 06:16 ZeromuS wrote:

The problem here is your army is very small.



This is only tangentially related, but it touches on one of my personal bugbears. What do you think of the fact that the average unit supply cost has gone up in StarCraft 2 compared to Brood War? Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Roaches and Hydralisks cost 2 supply instead of 1 for their closest Brood War equivalent, Siege Tanks and Banshees cost 3 instead of 2, Brood Lords cost 4 instead of 2, Ultralisks cost 6 instead of 4...



I apologise if this is not the correct place to ask, but does this not also affect this issue of army sizes and replenishment? This is only tangentially related, but it touches on one of my personal bugbears. What do you think of the fact that the average unit supply cost has gone up in StarCraft 2 compared to Brood War? Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Roaches and Hydralisks cost 2 supply instead of 1 for their closest Brood War equivalent, Siege Tanks and Banshees cost 3 instead of 2, Brood Lords cost 4 instead of 2, Ultralisks cost 6 instead of 4...I apologise if this is not the correct place to ask, but does this not also affect this issue of army sizes and replenishment?



Given that unit stats and interactions are so different in sc2, changing supply counts across the board likely opens so many cans of worms it's likely not worth it. There's already enough factors in play between changing the economy while also adding new units to the game. Also, the nice thing of higher supply counts it that they allow for more fine tuning - you can have a unit cost 2, 3, or 4 supply, which is a more subtle difference than going from 1 to 2. Given that unit stats and interactions are so different in sc2, changing supply counts across the board likely opens so many cans of worms it's likely not worth it. There's already enough factors in play between changing the economy while also adding new units to the game. Also, the nice thing of higher supply counts it that they allow for more fine tuning - you can have a unit cost 2, 3, or 4 supply, which is a more subtle difference than going from 1 to 2. Moderator Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

ArrozConLeche Profile Joined December 2010 Peru 41 Posts #35 On April 05 2015 08:05 Whitewing wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 05 2015 07:54 ArrozConLeche wrote:

First off, I have not played the beta yet. However, just from reading and watching streams I can conclude that the 12 worker change has indeed increased the pace of the game and limited players' reactions, to the point of making expanding dull. In other words, expanding has become an unplanned move that need no thought, like creating workers; most of us dont think about creating workers, rather we built them impulsevly UNLESS we are all-inning.

I think what blizzard intended with Legacy of the Void, is to make pro and beginner levels stand out. And in the long run, this will be the case as it was in broodwar. No longer you will have a 50apm player defeat a 200apm player because of how quickly you have to be in order to keep up with the never ending mineral surplus.



One last comment I wanted to make is that, I know this is a game, an RTS genre to be exact and as such it should be about strategies and everything. However, this game is also an e-sport, if anyone out there wants it to actually be something related to a "sport", then you should be supporting blizzard's move to speed up the game, thus forcing people to become faster and faster with their hands. I know that this game has to also appeal to casual gamers and this is why blizzard has a ranking system.....Moreoever, a real sport is about being mentally and physically fit and this is why I support blizzard's 12 worker change.



In brood war, Flash was considered average to slow on APM, he was nowhere near the fastest player around, but he was the best, specifically because APM wasn't nearly as important as you think it is.



And nobody wants ESPORTS to be exactly like sports, if you want that, just go outside and play soccer (football to non-Americans) In brood war, Flash was considered average to slow on APM, he was nowhere near the fastest player around, but he was the best, specifically because APM wasn't nearly as important as you think it is.And nobody wants ESPORTS to be exactly like sports, if you want that, just go outside and play soccer (football to non-Americans)



Soooooo you missed the part where I said that physical and mental attributes must go together. Flash was not the Slowest nor the fastest but He was talented and smart. I like comparing Flash to Messi, they are in two different worlds. Nontheless, both worlds belong to sports.Messi is small but talented and smart, thus one of the best soccer players in the world. Another idea you missed on my post is that I was comparing a 50apm player to a 200apm player. These are two extremes, 50apm being slowest and 200apm being fastest. I dont think the slowest player should be able to beat the fastest player if both players are both talented and smart unless you believe in luck.





Soooooo you missed the part where I said that physical and mental attributes must go together. Flash was not the Slowest nor the fastest but He was talented and smart. I like comparing Flash to Messi, they are in two different worlds. Nontheless, both worlds belong to sports.Messi is small but talented and smart, thus one of the best soccer players in the world. Another idea you missed on my post is that I was comparing a 50apm player to a 200apm player. These are two extremes, 50apm being slowest and 200apm being fastest. I dont think the slowest player should be able to beat the fastest player if both players are both talented and smart unless you believe in luck.

MoosyDoosy Profile Joined November 2014 United States 4519 Posts #36 Does anyone have some simple Zerg LotV build orders? Or at least ran tests to find the most optimal one similar to 15 hatch 16 pool. "Just a second too late rsoultin :D" - My 4k Guardian post

PineapplePizza Profile Joined June 2010 United States 749 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-05 00:03:36 #37 The higher early game income impacts the growth of economy, compared to the growth of tech, extremely quickly. Players have far more resources to set up an expansion and infrastructure, but important research timings such as stim, lair or warpgate are unchanged. The end result is that when these researches end, the opponent's build is much more developed than it would be with a 6 worker start, making any build relying on such a research - like a basic stim timing - considerably weaker.



Isn't this a big problem with every single economy-focused change made in StarCraft 2; that tech can't keep pace with economy?



I hope this community can pressure the devs on this subject, instead of letting them hide behind their defense of "this is our game" or "you're just a nostalgic". Isn't this a big problem with; that tech can't keep pace with economy?I hope this community can pressure the devs on this subject, instead of letting them hide behind their defense of "this is our game" or "you're just a nostalgic". "There should be no tying a sharp, hard object to your cock like it has a mechanical arm and hitting it with the object or using your cockring to crack the egg. No cyborg penises allowed. 100% flesh only." - semioldguy

Rorschach Profile Joined May 2010 United States 623 Posts #38 Playing around with 12 workers per base and going for more infastructure/tech/units. Seems to feel a bit better than going max workers per base.



maybe different for zerg since they go up to 3 base so fast anyway. En Taro Adun, Executor!

Lunareste Profile Joined July 2011 United States 3590 Posts #39 Ahh, the return of the sad Zealot.



Truly everything is alright in SC2Land. KT FlaSh FOREVER

ZeromuS Profile Blog Joined October 2010 Canada 12919 Posts #40 On April 05 2015 09:07 Rorschach wrote:

Playing around with 12 workers per base and going for more infastructure/tech/units. Seems to feel a bit better than going max workers per base.



maybe different for zerg since they go up to 3 base so fast anyway.



It only feels better because you can tech on 3 bases instead of rushing a fourth and making units to defend it.



you actually make a lot less money in order to do it but your time on the clock before you are forced to take an expansion (with a regular consistent income) is longer. It only feels better because you can tech on 3 bases instead of rushing a fourth and making units to defend it.you actually make a lot less money in order to do it but your time on the clock before you are forced to take an expansion (with a regular consistent income) is longer. Strategy Overwatch is awesome | Support is the best role | @TL_ZeromuS | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_

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