Geiko Profile Blog Joined June 2010 France 1924 Posts Last Edited: 2011-08-15 17:27:14 #1 Safe PvP

- defensive 3 gate -



Good evening TL,



I am geiko, mid master protoss player on the EU server. I'm here to talk to you about the match-up that is hated by most players, often referred to as a coin-flip , you guessed it, this is about PvP.

This match-up has completely changed since the last patch, and I think no one can really say they understand it completely.

This guide is about my approach to PvP, which I call the "safe PvP". I will present it in form of a [G]uide for anyone not high master or GM, and a [D]iscussion for higher level players.

In particular, for all of you mid master and under players who are struggling with 4 gate, this is I believe the safest, easiest way to be safe against 4 gate without 4 gating yourself or sacrificing economy and tech.





@5:50, 4 gate doesn't seem that scary does it ?



Build order :

+ Show Spoiler +

This build is a defensive 3 gate build which transitions into blink play. It also has the potential to transition into any other tech path based on what you scout or your personal preference.





9 pylon

Chrono 11th probe

12 gate --> scout

Chrono 13th probe

14 assimilator --> 3 probes

16 pylon (build pylon with 15th probes as it comes out of nexus and put it directly in gas)

(slight probe cut)

16 cybercore (with 16th probe as it comes out of the nexus)--> warpgate (4 chronoboosts total)

17 zealot

Chronoboost 18th probe (variation : you can chronoboost your first stalker instead to chase probe before putting down your second gas)

22 Stalker

(cut probes at 24/26)

24 gate

24 assimilator --> 3 in gas

24 pylon (at your ramp)

24 sentry

26 gate (build gate -> assimilator -> pylon -> gate with the same probe. Then send it directly into the new assimilator)

26 probe

27 stalker

29 stalker (same time on both stalkers)

31 probe

32 pylon

(32 optional tech structure : robo or stargate)

Morph warp gates.



Key timings :

+ Show Spoiler +

-16th probe, 150 minerals and gateway finish at the same time

-No probe cut after the 17 zealot (you should be able to build 18th probe right as 17th probe finishes)

-You have exactly 100 gas when stalker finishes

-Second gateway finishes exactly as sentry finishes

-Double stalker finish at the same time as 3rd gate finishes and at the same time as warpgate finishes.



This build is a defensive 3 gate build which transitions into blink play. It also has the potential to transition into any other tech path based on what you scout or your personal preference.9 pylonChrono 11th probe12 gate --> scoutChrono 13th probe14 assimilator --> 3 probes16 pylon (build pylon with 15th probes as it comes out of nexus and put it directly in gas)(slight probe cut)16 cybercore (with 16th probe as it comes out of the nexus)--> warpgate (4 chronoboosts total)17 zealotChronoboost 18th probe (variation : you can chronoboost your first stalker instead to chase probe before putting down your second gas)22 Stalker(cut probes at 24/26)24 gate24 assimilator --> 3 in gas24 pylon (at your ramp)24 sentry26 gate (build gate -> assimilator -> pylon -> gate with the same probe. Then send it directly into the new assimilator)26 probe27 stalker29 stalker (same time on both stalkers)31 probe32 pylon(32 optional tech structure : robo or stargate)Morph warp gates.

Playing the build :

+ Show Spoiler +

Up to the part where we add the 2nd gate and 2nd assimilator, the build is entirely standard. This allows you to play your PvP as you would normally. Scout proxy locations, react accordingly to cheeses or 2 gate pressure, etc ...



Be active with your first zealot + stalker. Chase probes, find proxy pylons etc... Don't over extend your self though, you don't want to meet 3 stalkers in the middle of the map for example. Using your first two units actively should give you an idea of whether or not your opponent is trying to 4 gate you.

If you don't do this or don't find the proxy in time or at all, don't worry this build doesn't rely on finding proxy pylons.



Try to spot your opponent's tech with your scouting probe or get elements which could giveaway his build : (when) is he getting his 2nd gas ? Did he skip the first zealot ? is he saving chronoboost ? etc...



The time is 5:45, your 3 gates have just finished morphing into warpgates. You have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry at your ramp.



If your opponent is 4 gating :



+ Show Spoiler + The game is practically won. Warp in 3 stalkers at your ramp You have more units than he does (6 stalkers + 1 zealot + 1 sentry), and about the same amount of cool down on your gates ( minus a couple of seconds as he probably had an extra chronoboost on wg research)

Your sentry has enough energy for 2 FFs. The 4 gate runs out of resources after the 4 warp-ins. This means that if you can kill one unit every time you place a FF, you will be good with 3 gates. In, practice however, you will kill a lot more. when he places a pylon at the bottom of the ramp, wait for him to warp in zealots first and FF your ramp. Kite them into your base without losing anything, warp in 3 more stalkers, and you have defeated the 4 gate.

If he is doign an "in your face" 4 gate with his first pylons at the bottom of your ramp (you haven't successfully microed your initial units), don't panic, you'll just need to be very tight, warp in stalkers as soon as you can, FF out the units that you can, and focus the stalkers. You stalker count should be much higher than his and if you are carefull in avoiding the zealots, you should come out ahead.





Playing blink:



This build is originally designed to transition into blink play. Warp in 3 stalkers immediately and go pressure with 6 stalkers + 1 zealot. Throw down twilight council + pylon while the stalkers are on their way. This is also the time when you can squeeze in 2 extra probes. Ideally you want to reach ~26 mining probes, get a couple of probes everytime you feel you can safely afford it. Poke up the ramp with the zealot (go up and down really fast just to spot what he has). If your zealot gets FFed and killed, it's not that big a deal, since only the stalker count matters when playing blink.



You will want to be very careful if you are playing against another blink build. As soon as you scout the high stalker count, go back to your base and wait for blink to finish. If you don't you will lose all your stalkers as a greedy play gets blink faster. Once blink finishes, you will have the same amount of stalkers as your opponents.



If your opponent is playing a robo build, he will most likely be getting fast immortals. (1 base colo) Blink builds own 1 base colossus, so keep checking if he isn't trying to get a fast colossus out. If he does, you should be able to blink in the base, snipe the colossus and win the game right there (assuming you have macroed correctly, and have a proxy pylon at his natural). Most players will cancel the robotics bay once they scout the stalker count and chrono out immortals instead.



Against stargate, it should be relatively easy.



Defending the DTs : If you have not been able to spot his tech, or still have doubts, you must be prepared for a DT rush. However getting a robo or a forge will greatly set you back if he isn't going DTs. You must therefore wall of your ramp with zealot + stalker. The second you hear that your ramp is under attack, Forcefield it and build forge + robo at your ramp. Also bring your army back at the ramp. Keep on forcefielding, build a cannon and warp in 2 more sentries. This should give you a total of 7 FFs (1min45 secs) which is the time for your forge + cannon to finish. Walling in with forge + robo +stalker is a fail-safe in case you mistime some of your FFs. If you don't trust your reaction time, or fear you might be distracted in battle, wall off with 2 layers (3 stalker + 1 zealot) instead.







Gas stealing :



If you get your second gas stolen, work on destroying the assimilator with zealot + stalker and take it as soon as you can. You will want to not build a sentry (so as to not fall behind in gas) and get a stalker instead. Then continue as normal. You can warp in a sentry instead of a stalker at your first warping if you need to defend against 4 gate. Else, skip the sentry all together. Chronoboosting your probes for the third time can induce a gas steal. You might want to try the variation of the build where you chrono your stalker instead and delay your 2nd gas by just a little.





Possible Variations :



For the people who hate blink play or for cases where you have luckily managed to scout an early robo and don't feel like playing blink vs robo, this opening can also transition into any other tech path. As stated in the BO, the variation is to throw down your tech structure before the first warp in. Do this only if you are sure that there is no 4 gate coming. If you do and a 4 gate still comes, it's no problem, you can just cancel the tech structure and warp in stalkers.

Send your zealot + 3 stalkers at his base to poke and gather more information on the units that you should be warping in. This poking isn't really mandatory but I like to do it to try and get a little more information. This is usually when you'll know that it is safe to get a couple of extra probes.

This should add to the information you have gotten before and should confirm or not your choice. If the choice you have made is really bad (you are going stargate and you meet 6 stalkers at the top of your opponent's ramp), it is not too late to cancel your tech, and chose a new one. (it's better to play slightly late with the right tech, than on time with the wrong tech). In the stargate vs blink example, you can cancel the stargate, warp in stalkers and get a twilight council, and play defensively in your base until your own blink is done, at which point you will be on equal footings with your opponent.



Another variation of the BO is to use your third probe chronoboost on your stalker instead. And delay your gas slightly until the scouting probe is killed. Do this only if the probes stays in your base and you want to fake a 4 gate. If you don't feel like playing mind games, the fact that he sees your second gas insn't really a problem.



With your scouting probe, if your opponent didn't take the time to clear the area around his base, you can put the 32 pylon as a proxy and warp in your first three stalkers near his base. This should give you a 15-20 second lead on your 6 stalker poke.



Up to the part where we add the 2nd gate and 2nd assimilator, the build is entirely standard. This allows you to play your PvP as you would normally. Scout proxy locations, react accordingly to cheeses or 2 gate pressure, etc ...Be active with your first zealot + stalker. Chase probes, find proxy pylons etc... Don't over extend your self though, you don't want to meet 3 stalkers in the middle of the map for example. Using your first two units actively should give you an idea of whether or not your opponent is trying to 4 gate you.If you don't do this or don't find the proxy in time or at all, don't worry this build doesn't rely on finding proxy pylons.Try to spot your opponent's tech with your scouting probe or get elements which could giveaway his build : (when) is he getting his 2nd gas ? Did he skip the first zealot ? is he saving chronoboost ? etc...The time is 5:45, your 3 gates have just finished morphing into warpgates. You have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry at your ramp.If your opponent is 4 gating :This build is originally designed to transition into blink play. Warp in 3 stalkers immediately and go pressure with 6 stalkers + 1 zealot. Throw down twilight council + pylon while the stalkers are on their way. This is also the time when you can squeeze in 2 extra probes. Ideally you want to reach ~26 mining probes, get a couple of probes everytime you feel you can safely afford it. Poke up the ramp with the zealot (go up and down really fast just to spot what he has). If your zealot gets FFed and killed, it's not that big a deal, since only the stalker count matters when playing blink.You will want to be very careful if you are playing against another blink build. As soon as you scout the high stalker count, go back to your base and wait for blink to finish. If you don't you will lose all your stalkers as a greedy play gets blink faster. Once blink finishes, you will have the same amount of stalkers as your opponents.If your opponent is playing a robo build, he will most likely be getting fast immortals. (1 base colo) + Show Spoiler + You will not want to fight this army head on, but on the other hand, he cannot leave his base without opening a base trade situation. Check his expansion timing and expand as soon as he has. You will want to take a far away expansion (abuse blink mobility in case of base trade) and teching to chargelot/archon is the natural transition. During this time, you must not allow him to push out (keep threatening his natural).Against stargate, it should be relatively easy.Defending the DTs : If you have not been able to spot his tech, or still have doubts, you must be prepared for a DT rush. However getting a robo or a forge will greatly set you back if he isn't going DTs. You must therefore wall of your ramp with zealot + stalker. The second you hear that your ramp is under attack, Forcefield it and build forge + robo at your ramp. Also bring your army back at the ramp. Keep on forcefielding, build a cannon and warp in 2 more sentries. This should give you a total of 7 FFs (1min45 secs) which is the time for your forge + cannon to finish. Walling in with forge + robo +stalker is a fail-safe in case you mistime some of your FFs. If you don't trust your reaction time, or fear you might be distracted in battle, wall off with 2 layers (3 stalker + 1 zealot) instead.If you get your second gas stolen, work on destroying the assimilator with zealot + stalker and take it as soon as you can. You will want to not build a sentry (so as to not fall behind in gas) and get a stalker instead. Then continue as normal. You can warp in a sentry instead of a stalker at your first warping if you need to defend against 4 gate. Else, skip the sentry all together. Chronoboosting your probes for the third time can induce a gas steal. You might want to try the variation of the build where you chrono your stalker instead and delay your 2nd gas by just a little.For the people who hate blink play or for cases where you have luckily managed to scout an early robo and don't feel like playing blink vs robo, this opening can also transition into any other tech path. As stated in the BO, the variation is to throw down your tech structure before the first warp in. Do this only if you are sure that there is no 4 gate coming. If you do and a 4 gate still comes, it's no problem, you can just cancel the tech structure and warp in stalkers.Send your zealot + 3 stalkers at his base to poke and gather more information on the units that you should be warping in. This poking isn't really mandatory but I like to do it to try and get a little more information. This is usually when you'll know that it is safe to get a couple of extra probes.This should add to the information you have gotten before and should confirm or not your choice. If the choice you have made is really bad (you are going stargate and you meet 6 stalkers at the top of your opponent's ramp), it is not too late to cancel your tech, and chose a new one. (it's better to play slightly late with the right tech, than on time with the wrong tech). In the stargate vs blink example, you can cancel the stargate, warp in stalkers and get a twilight council, and play defensively in your base until your own blink is done, at which point you will be on equal footings with your opponent.Another variation of the BO is to use your third probe chronoboost on your stalker instead. And delay your gas slightly until the scouting probe is killed. Do this only if the probes stays in your base and you want to fake a 4 gate. If you don't feel like playing mind games, the fact that he sees your second gas insn't really a problem.With your scouting probe, if your opponent didn't take the time to clear the area around his base, you can put the 32 pylon as a proxy and warp in your first three stalkers near his base. This should give you a 15-20 second lead on your 6 stalker poke.

Strengths of the build :

+ Show Spoiler +

-Doesn't rely on being lucky and finding proxies or scouting stuff you shouldn't.



-Safe PvP opener (crushes 4 gate). Some people will say that their gate -> robo/twilight -> gate -> gate opener is safe. These people are wrong and have probably never faced a well executed 4 gate. Their build maybe won't lose all the time to 4 gate, but most of the time, it will depend on execution of the 4 gate , or micro.



-You get an early second gas --> you won't be behind in tech



-Relies on only one sentry. Some PvP builds claim to be safe against 4 gate by making a lot of sentries. The real problem is that sentries are pretty much useless in the PvP mid and late game and are extremely expensive (gas is the main constraint in PvP). Getting more than one sentry will set you far back in the mid game if your opponent is not 4 gating.



-Can transition into any branch of protoss tech tree.



-Does not sacrifice much economy, even compared to less safe builds.





Weaknesses of the build :

+ Show Spoiler +

-Doesn't entirely solve the coin flip problem of the tech choice. Blink build vs greedy 1 gate robo is hard to play for example (not impossible though)



-Doesn't have the option to punish greedy builds. Since you delay your tech compared to straight up tech builds, you will have to play slightly conservatively while waiting for your tech to be operational.



-Susceptible to gas stealing. (especially once your opponent scouts the 3rd chronoboost on your nexus).



-Slightly delayed tech



-Depending on the tech or strategy chosen by your opponent, you can very much be forced to have to go all in with your blink stalker build (base trade situations or blink vs blink macro + micro wars). If you don't like to find your self in such situations, the robo transition will fit your style better.





Replays :

+ Show Spoiler +

This is more of a build order guide than a game plan thread. The build isn't designed to give you an edge over your opponent but is rather a safe way to enter the mid game without sacrificing gas, economy or tech.

I have provided some replays :



A perfect execution of the build against the AI to show the exact timings. If you are going to use this build, you need to study this replay a lot. This shows the perfect execution when all the timings fall into place exactly. Notice how when you start blink you have 0/0 ressource as well as 24 probes. Look at the replay from my camera view so you see every detail you should be doing.







A defense against a perfectly executed 4 gate (against a high master player)







Against a 10 gate 4 stalker + 1 zealot early push (high master player)





Against a 4 gate with first two pylons under my ramp by Harstem, a very high master player









This is more of a build order guide than a game plan thread. The build isn't designed to give you an edge over your opponent but is rather a safe way to enter the mid game without sacrificing gas, economy or tech.I have provided some replays :A perfect execution of the build against the AI to show the exact timings. If you are going to use this build, you need to study this replay a lot. This shows the perfect execution when all the timings fall into place exactly. Notice how when you start blink you have 0/0 ressource as well as 24 probes. Look at the replay from my camera view so you see every detail you should be doing.A defense against a perfectly executed 4 gate (against a high master player)Against a 10 gate 4 stalker + 1 zealot early push (high master player)Against a 4 gate with first two pylons under my ramp by Harstem, a very high master player

Discussion :

+ Show Spoiler +

I would like to have some top players' comments on my approach to PvP, if you disagree with anything that has been said in this OP, you can feel free to post.

I'd also love to know how viable you guys think this could be on Tal darim altar, or scrap station at very high level. I know I can hold off 4 gate with this at my level : micro 6 stalkers + 1 zealot against 6 stalkers + 1 zealot, then bring the sentry in when it has enough for 2 FFs and the opponent attacks with 4 more zealots. Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ?



Playing the midgame :

+ Show Spoiler +

For all your mid game needs, these two threads should be helpful

Robo Twilight PvP

Twilight council PvP

For all your mid game needs, these two threads should be helpful



Conclusion :



This build falls under the category "defensive 3 gate in to tech". I know there are some 3 gate builds out there and I don't claim to have invented 3 gating (in before the usual "been doing this since beta" posts...). I really like my take on it and I thought I'd share it with you guys, since there isn't any guide to defensive 3 gate in PvP on TL.

I highly recommend this build to anyone who has given up on PvP and thinks it's all about 4 gating : this build makes 4 gate look incredibly weak. People who hate taking risks and like safe builds will also appreciate it. I spent alot of time optimizing the BO so all the timings would fall into place nicely. The build is really smooth and should be executed as flawlessly as possible.

Feel free to post any kind of feedback, positive or negative. I would also appreciate any high level replays of this build (winning or failing).

Finally, I'd like to thank Anihc for the time and help he gave me to be able to write this guide.

Good evening TL,I am geiko, mid master protoss player on the EU server. I'm here to talk to you about the match-up that is hated by most players, often referred to as a coin-flip , you guessed it, this is about PvP.This match-up has completely changed since the last patch, and I think no one can really say they understand it completely.This guide is about my approach to PvP, which I call the "safe PvP". I will present it in form of a [G]uide for anyone not high master or GM, and a [D]iscussion for higher level players.In particular, for all of you mid master and under players who are struggling with 4 gate,This build falls under the category "defensive 3 gate in to tech". I know there are some 3 gate builds out there and I don't claim to have invented 3 gating (in before the usual "been doing this since beta" posts...). I really like my take on it and I thought I'd share it with you guys, since there isn't any guide to defensive 3 gate in PvP on TL.I highly recommend this build to anyone who has given up on PvP and thinks it's all about 4 gating : this build makes 4 gate look incredibly weak. People who hate taking risks and like safe builds will also appreciate it. I spent alot of time optimizing the BO so all the timings would fall into place nicely. The build is really smooth and should be executed as flawlessly as possible.Feel free to post any kind of feedback, positive or negative. I would also appreciate any high level replays of this build (winning or failing).Finally, I'd like to thank Anihc for the time and help he gave me to be able to write this guide. geiko.813 (EU)