michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today — at the heart of the impeachment inquiry was a threat to withhold U.S. military assistance from Ukraine. Why that assistance had been so important to Ukraine, and to the United States, in the first place. It’s Monday, November 11.

andrew kramer

The word “Ukraine” means frontier or border land. This was a frontier between two competing empires. It’s been a country torn between East and West, between Western Europe and Russia.

archived recording [SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

For most of the 20th century, Russia had won out, and Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union.

archived recording The Declaration of Independence is on, as of today? That’s what it says. From the moment — It is effective as of today.

andrew kramer

Until August 24, 1991, when Ukraine took a step toward the West.

archived recording Good. An already emotional week ended today, as the people of the Ukraine embarked on a new beginning, becoming the fifth republic to break away from the Kremlin.

andrew kramer

It was the culmination of a long struggle for independence. And after years of hardship under Soviet rule, Ukraine was now an independent state.

archived recording This is one of the turning points in history. The vote for independence of the Ukraine is, in fact, one of those momentous events that is going to change the rest of history. It’s the end of the Russian Empire.

michael barbaro

So once Ukraine becomes an independent country, and it can have its own international relations with the rest of the world, what do those relationships start to look like?

andrew kramer

The key issue for Ukraine that defined both its foreign and its domestic policy in the post-Soviet period was the geopolitical struggle for Ukraine’s allegiance.

michael barbaro

I reached Andrew Kramer, a foreign correspondent for The Times in Kiev.

andrew kramer

On the one hand you had Ukraine, very closely tied to Russia by industrial supply chains, by energy pipelines, and indeed by culture and by history. But the European Union was pulling Ukraine in a Western direction, the European Union in the United States, trying to conceive of Ukraine as integrated into the Western European world. And as Europe pulled in one direction, Russia started to pull back.

michael barbaro

And what was it about Ukraine that interested the U.S. and the European Union?

andrew kramer

The idea was to encourage the development of a Democratic system, and to prevent the re-emergence of a Russian empire. There was the axiom that Russia without Ukraine is just a country, and Russia with Ukraine becomes an empire. So maintaining the independence of Ukraine was a policy objective to prevent the re-emergence of an expansionist imperial power in Moscow.

michael barbaro

It feels like at this point, the Cold War is officially over. But it’s not quite over.

andrew kramer

That’s right. There was a feeling that the Russians, although they had acquiesced to the independence of these countries, they had a phantom limb syndrome. They always felt that Ukraine, in fact, should belong to Russia.

michael barbaro

Phantom limb as if they could never really believe that Ukraine or Czechoslovakia or any of these countries were not really theirs anymore.

andrew kramer

Yes, that’s right. And there’s something more. There’s a cultural issue at play here. Both Russia and Ukraine trace their origin to Kiev. Kiev was the capital of the original Russian state. They feel this was the roots of their country, and they don’t want to see it in another state. So they feel that the Ukrainians are something like wayward cousins in this sense, that it should be obvious to Ukrainians that this is all one culture and one civilization.

michael barbaro

So Russians believe that Russia, as a concept, as a place, as a country, as an identity began in Kiev.

andrew kramer

That’s right.

michael barbaro

But of course the fact that Ukraine is independent means that no matter how Russia feels about it, Ukraine has the right to develop whatever relationship it wants with the U.S. and with the European Union.

andrew kramer

Theoretically, certainly, but they also have to be very cautious about not poking the Russian bear. That they have a powerful neighbor and they have to acknowledge the real politics of their circumstances. What’s developing here is the tug of war that becomes the story of post-independence Ukraine, with the West reaching out to form alliances, and Russia seeking to maintain its sphere of influence in Ukraine.

archived recording Ukraine is trying to decide whether it wants to align itself with Russia’s regional trade bloc or to push for E.U integration.

andrew kramer

This really came to a head with two competing trade agreements, which were offered to Ukraine.

archived recording The Ukrainian president arrived in Strasbourg, poised to work on concluding the association agreement —

andrew kramer

One from the European Union and one from Russia.

archived recording — with a view to later establishing a free trade area between Ukraine and the E.U.

andrew kramer

The European Union offered a more serious and formal trade arrangement with Ukraine that would be, possibly a path to membership in the E.U., although that was seen as a distant prospect.

archived recording After 15 years of eager anticipation, the Customs Union between Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan is up and running.

andrew kramer

And Russia responded by offering a trade agreement of its own, which was called the Customs Union.

archived recording The union, created to ease mutual trade, could be joined by another candidate, Ukraine.

andrew kramer

Which was very similar on paper to the European Union, but it was also, in a sense, a reforming of the Soviet Union as well.

archived recording The country is at a crossroads, deciding whether to turn East or West.

michael barbaro

This feels like a very consequential moment. Because to join the E.U would feel like Ukraine saying, officially we see ourselves as part of Europe. To choose a trade deal instead with Russia would be to say to the West, we ultimately see ourselves as part of the world of Russia.

andrew kramer

That’s right. So while on paper this was about trade, grain quotas, and so forth, this was really about the destiny of the country.

archived recording (viktor yanukovych) [SPEAKING UKRANIAN]

michael barbaro

And where does the Ukrainian leader at the time fall on this decision, the West or Russia?

archived recording (viktor yanukovych) [SPEAKING UKRANIAN]

andrew kramer

The Ukrainian leader, Viktor Yanukovych, had generally been seen as a pro-Russian politician. But he had promised that Ukraine would integrate economically with the European Union, while maintaining good relations with Russia.

archived recording (viktor yanukovych) [SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

But in the end, in a very dramatic moment —

archived recording (viktor yanukovych) [SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

— the Yanukovych government announces that they will turn to Russia instead of the European Union for a trade agreement.

michael barbaro

He goes with Russia.

andrew kramer

He went with Russia.

michael barbaro

That was genuinely surprising to me. I mean, here is this country just a couple of decades out of independence, and it is taking the most formal step possible to reintegrate itself with the country it had sought independence from.

andrew kramer

That’s right. And this is what a lot of people in Ukraine and in Kiev felt about this decision.

archived recording [CHANTS IN UKRAINIAN] There were immediate protests in Kiev that never let up from the day they began in November of 2013. [SPEAKING TO A CROWD IN UKRAINIAN]

michael barbaro

And tell me about these protests.

andrew kramer

Well, when I came down to cover these protests in the late fall of 2013, there was already a tent encampment in the center of Kiev, in Independence Square, with thousands and thousands of people on the square, around the clock.

archived recording [SINGING IN UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

People were genuinely outraged by this decision to lean back towards Russia.

archived recording [SPEAKING TO A CROWD IN UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

And it was also something of a party, really. Even though they were always riot policemen — some where hovering on the edges of these protests, sometimes making incursions, making arrests, there were also groups called “titushky,” which were hired thugs who would come in with a lead pipe or knives, straight razors, and would be attacking the protesters. It started to turn more violent as the winter came on. By February, I was living in a hotel, right on the square, and it became very tense. When I drove into the city in the early morning, I could see black smoke rising from the center of Kiev from burning cars. And there were a number of very violent confrontations over about two days in late February, in which the police eventually encroached on the square, overran much of the territory that the protesters had controlled, and pushed it back to a few hundred square yards. And at the last moment, the protesters, out of desperation, they started to burn tires and actually anything that was flammable to make a ring around this small, charred bit of pavement that was the only remaining area that they controlled, that they sort of felt this was what was left of their dream of the independent Ukraine. And then in the final day —

archived recording [GUNSHOT] [SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

— there was really a cacophony of gunfire.

archived recording [GUNSHOT] And there were snipers firing into the crowd. Over this hour and a half, 70 people were killed, and several hundred people were wounded. It was such a brutal moment that the Ukrainian elite and the international community realized that something had happened that could not be left unaddressed. And there was a revolt in the Yanukovych government against the president. And the police defected —

michael barbaro

Wow.

andrew kramer

— and betrayed their president, and actually left the city center. And within hours, the president fled the capital.

michael barbaro

So what happens next?

andrew kramer

Well, what happened next was a move by Russia. Because Russia and President Vladimir Putin had just lost its ally in Viktor Yanukovych. And the very next day Putin met with his security chiefs overnight. And by dawn, President Putin orders what he calls an operation to take back Crimea, which is in the south of Ukraine. And what this was really was an order of a military intervention into Ukraine.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

archived recording Russia is tightening its grip on Crimea, as we get reports of an increasing number of troops and takeovers of key military facilities. This despite intense diplomatic efforts —

michael barbaro

What is it about Crimea that makes it the most logical place for Putin to try to invade?

andrew kramer

Well, Crimea is host to a major Russian naval base in Sevastopol. So the military infrastructure is partly already in place. Also, the population in Crimea is predominantly Russian-speaking. So you would have a receptive population in this area.

archived recording Look at Ukraine and Crimea, down in the south there, jutting out into the waters of the Black Sea, home to a critical port the Russian navy has used for centuries. This morning, more unidentified pro-Russian armed militias, patrolling the streets of Crimea’s capital.

andrew kramer

So this was an unacknowledged intervention. These were men who had no insignia on their uniforms. They were called, disparagingly by the Ukrainians, “the little green men,” as if they’d come from space. Mystery men in green uniforms by the hundreds were showing up in their country.

archived recording Vladimir Putin, proudly watching Russian military exercises today.

andrew kramer

They surrounded Ukrainian military bases.

archived recording His Air Force controls the sky.

andrew kramer

They seized a bunch of the Ukrainian navy.

archived recording His army controls the roads, borders, and military bases.

andrew kramer

They overran the local legislature and other centers of power, and really, within days, had seized control.

archived recording Putin rules in Crimea now.

andrew kramer

So by this point the political process starts. The de facto authorities declare a referendum. There are no observers, so it’s hard to say exactly what happened. But the people are asked, do you want to join Russia or would you like to remain in Ukraine? And by this point, of course, they are, in fact, already part of Russia. And the results come in, and a majority want to be annexed by Russia.

michael barbaro

So Russia, having invaded Crimea, then asks the people of Crimea, do you, basically mind that we just invaded Crimea? And it turns out that the answer is no.

andrew kramer

Exactly.

michael barbaro

Is it fair to say that Russia was using this kind of vote as a rationale to say, it’s OK that we just annexed Crimea, because in a sense, Crimea was always ours?

andrew kramer

Yes, absolutely. The message was, these are our people, and they’re coming home.

archived recording [SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]

andrew kramer

So we left off back in Kiev with Ukraine losing its leader. So what is the response in Ukraine to this military incursion by Russia? What happened next was, Russia tried a similar approach in other provinces.

archived recording Just yesterday, at this hour, thousands of Russian troops have been deployed to Ukraine’s border.

andrew kramer

They’ve fomented uprisings in Russian-speaking areas. And this led to the war that we have going on in Ukraine today between pro-Russian forces and pro-Ukrainian forces.

archived recording [GUNFIRE]

michael barbaro

And what does this war look like?

archived recording [SPEAKING UKRAINIAN] [EXPLOSION]

andrew kramer

It’s been a forgotten war. While there was interest in the first months, it’s settled into a stalemate.

archived recording (barack obama) Good afternoon, everybody.

andrew kramer

There was debate in the Obama administration about how to respond.

archived recording (barack obama) I wanted to provide a brief update on our efforts to address the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.

andrew kramer

And they settled on what they were calling non-lethal assistance.

archived recording (barack obama) — to provide American assistance for the Ukrainian government, so that they can weather this storm and stabilize their economy.

andrew kramer

And this was training for the Ukrainian army, ambulances, armored vehicles, body armor, radios, and other types of assistance, which were not deemed to be lethal, or most importantly, would not provoke a retaliatory escalation from Russia.

archived recording It’s time to ask the hard question. Are we willing to stand up to Vladimir Putin’s aggression before he kills more people, does more economic damage, further destabilizes Europe?

andrew kramer

So this began in 2014.

archived recording Our options grow fewer and less effective.

andrew kramer

Support for Ukraine in Congress had been bipartisan. Both parties had agreed that backing Ukrainian independence was really in the United State’s interests. This was about holding Russia at bay. There hadn’t been much controversy over that.

archived recording That’s why I’m announcing today my plan to introduce new legislation. It will offer Ukraine greater assistance on a variety of fronts.

andrew kramer

And this assistance was rolled over in Congress year after year.

michael barbaro

Right. And so this is the military assistance that we have now heard so much about over the past few weeks.

andrew kramer

Exactly.

archived recording (john mccain) Give them the weapons they need. Give them the wherewithal they need. Give them the ability to fight. They will fight. archived recording The world is watching, and the world’s superpower can not be seen as incapable of rising to Russia’s challenge.

michael barbaro

OK. So this is the situation after 2014. So what happens to this relationship once President Trump takes office?

andrew kramer

From the Ukrainian side, there was an effort to strike up a transactional relationship with President Trump, as sort of, you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours. President Poroshenko and president of Ukraine at the time negotiated, for example, to buy coal from Pennsylvania. This was politically beneficial for Trump, because Pennsylvania coal miners were really Trump’s base, and Trump had promised to deliver jobs to coal miners in his campaign.

archived recording That’s a great honor and a great pleasure to be together with you, with the president, one of the most reliable, supportive, and partner — strategic partner for Ukraine. We really try to bring freedom and democracy.

michael barbaro

So the Ukrainian government is desperate to do whatever it needs to do to get into Trump’s good graces, because in their minds, if they can do that, they can restore a better relationship with the U.S., and one in which the U.S. sees Ukraine as a strategic partner, and leans away from Russia.

andrew kramer

Exactly.

archived recording (donald trump) Thank you very much. It’s wonderful to have President Poroshenko with us. We spent some time recently in the White House. And I know you’ve made good progress since then — a lot of progress, actually. And I wouldn’t say it’s the easiest place right now to live, but you’re making it better and better on a daily basis . And I do hear very, very good things.

michael barbaro

How is President Trump weighing in on this war, waging within the Ukraine between these pro-Russian forces and Ukrainian military?

archived recording (donald trump) And I really hope that Russia — because I really believe that President Putin would like to do something — I really hope that you and President Putin get together and can solve your problem. That would be a tremendous achievement. And I know you’re trying to do that.

andrew kramer

He’s been very quiet on Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

archived recording Silence in the White House, which is pretty distressing, given that we clearly have a powder keg. So will President Trump really put pressure on Vladimir Putin over this latest clash between Russia and Ukraine? Well we pressed the Trump administration repeatedly on that question. Neither the White House nor the State Department would comment.

andrew kramer

And amid all this uncertainty about whether the Trump administration is really supporting Ukraine in its conflict with Russia, the Ukrainians learned, by early August of this year, that about $400 million in military aid has been held up by the White House.

archived recording Hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid has poured into Ukraine since 2014. But that could be at risk. Critics say the potential aid cut is an example of Trump capitulating to Russia. Some members of Congress are already sounding the alarm.

andrew kramer

And this was the time when they needed U.S. backing. And the aid was a symbol of U.S. backing. It was also quite valuable for their military. But it wasn’t quite clear initially what the issue was, or how serious it would become. There was a creeping awareness in Ukrainian government that the aid might, in fact, be lost by September.

michael barbaro

Finally, Andrew, the reason we’re talking to you about this military aid at all is, of course, the phone call that President Trump makes to Ukraine’s president, and everything that we have learned since about the withholding of that aid to Ukraine, unless the Ukrainians agreed to do these investigations that President Trump wanted into his rivals. And based on what you’ve told us, how critically important this aide is, I guess I’m curious what the people fighting the war in Ukraine on the ground, who rely on this military aid, what they make of this series of events.

andrew kramer

Ultimately, when I talked to dozens of soldiers, the feeling was one of disappointment. They felt they had maybe lost an ally in this war. I was at the front in October and met with some soldiers, and they naturally said that they were disappointed. The Ukrainian army is a poor army. They’re fighting with basic weapons — Kalashnikov rifles, binoculars. They’re living in dug out bunkers. Some of the soldiers, for example, are wearing tennis shoes and not boots. It’s a very grim existence. So for them to learn they were losing the military assistance was quite a blow. Soldiers said they were disappointed. So this was really a shock to soldiers to realize that they might be in this on their own.

michael barbaro

Andrew, thank you very much.

andrew kramer

Thank you.

michael barbaro

This week, the first witness to be called in the public phase of the impeachment inquiry will be Bill Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, who is expected to testify that he had a, quote, “Clear understanding that American military aid to Ukraine would not be released until the Ukrainians pursued investigations that would benefit President Trump.” In his closed door testimony, Taylor has described a quote snake pit of people around the president, who were willing to use the military aid as leverage over Ukraine, despite the danger it posed to Ukraine. We’ll be right back. Here is what else you need to know today.

archived recording So is this a sign that Republicans are prepared to go back on the offense here? I think it is, and first of all —

michael barbaro

Over the weekend, House Republicans released their list of witnesses for the next phase of the impeachment inquiry, including Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, Hunter Biden’s business partner, and the anonymous whistleblower whose complaint launched the inquiry.

archived recording I’m excited to see some of these witnesses that we’ve placed on the list. It’s finally — finally we have an opportunity to kind of get to the bottom of what’s going on, and to round out some of the evidence. Heretofore, as you know, it’s been a very one-sided sham of a process.

michael barbaro

The witness list appeared to be an attempt by Republicans to shift the focus of the investigation away from President Trump.

archived recording Let’s hope that Chairman Schiff will allow these witnesses to testify.

michael barbaro