Insidioussc2 Profile Joined March 2015 Germany 94 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-07 14:51:45 #1

By simple automating it not much is solved, though. The one reason to move your screen back to base is gone and creep spread is just not important enough (in zvp and zvz atleast) to make up for the easiness of zerg production.



Suggestions right now are mostly different, more forgiving versions of manual inject, or having auto and manu with a reward for manual. To me these suggestions feel like bad design, it fixes very few issues with something boring to begin with.

The new mule and chrono, not only make things slightly easier, but seem better designed than ever. So why not think of something new for zerg macro?



I came up with some changes to the queen and something new for the drone. Queens are by now not only an iconic part of every zerg's base, they can be sniped to harm the production and serve as an early game base defend. So I guess they should stay a vital part of zerg's macro.

On the other hand I don't like while other races invest into multiple production buildings, we have only a queen ability and invest energy instead of resources.





Queen: Instead of larva inject the queen can "nest" to a hatchery. Nesting is a channeling spell and costs no energy. While nesting the queen sits next to the hatch, plays a constant animation (or some other visual indicator), can't attack, but can be attacked itself. With a nesting queen hatcheries produce larvae 50% faster and up to a limit of 10.



Reasoning: Like the new chrono constant channeling feels more elegant than an auto cast mechanic. As a zerg player when harassed you need to decide, should I cancel nesting to let the queen help defend, or keep it on the hatch? Every second has some impact, not only an inject every 30 seconds. Also no energy cost for the same reasoning the new mule costs nothing - the decision between a must have and something useful only in some situations is hardly a decision. To compensate maybe increase tumor cost to 50 energy. 50% increased speed of larva production is less than the current inject does, to make up for it I propose a second mechanic:



Drone inject: The Drone sacrifices his life for a 4 or 5 larva inject on a hatchery. Can only be casted on a hatch with a nesting queen. Like the current inject there can only be one at a time per hatch and it needs ca. 30 seconds.



Reasoning: A macro mechanic that does require mechanical skill and strategic thinking. It is only viable in some situations, not mandatory and comes as a trade for a drone (50 mins and one larva). For a ling focused playstyle you'd need to inject most of the time, but when you play greedy and tech to costly units you like to keep your drones. You look for a big fight and fast remax? better keep injecting ahead!



Of course all values have to be balanced, but imo it brings not only skill, but also some depth into zerg macro. New players are able to build additional barracks when needed, so this is not too much to ask for, right? And a queen itself gives already some basic production for very few apm (just cast nesting once on a hatch). It's maybe too big of a change this far in the beta, but hopefully they'll realize something has to be done to injects and zerg macro. How do you like these proposed changes?



Poll: How do you like these changes?



Nesting queens is interesting but the rest.. (54)

46%



No, auto inject is fine (20)

17%



Sounds great! (15)

13%



No, give both auto and more efficient manual inject (11)

9%



No, manual inject please! (8)

7%



Drone injects might be something to think about (6)

5%



No, but we need another more in-depth mechanic than inject (4)

3%



118 total votes (54)46%(20)17%(15)13%(11)9%(8)7%(6)5%(4)3%118 total votes Your vote: How do you like these changes? (Vote): Sounds great!

(Vote): Nesting queens is interesting but the rest..

(Vote): Drone injects might be something to think about

(Vote): No, manual inject please!

(Vote): No, auto inject is fine

(Vote): No, but we need another more in-depth mechanic than inject

(Vote): No, give both auto and more efficient manual inject





tl:dr version: I neither like hots nor lotv inject, so instead queen should be able to nest on hatch to give some small constant production increase. Drones would do the real inject for the cost of their life.

Since the introduction of auto-injects, I personally (as a zerg), and from what I heard most other people, feel like zerg macro is too easy. I totally understand the reasons to get rid of manual inject since it's just a mindless shallow task. Where other races have to invest not only clicks but resources into production, zerg every 30 seconds had to click on their hatch. Our macro always lacked complexity, real strategic value and was unforgiving to new players.By simple automating it not much is solved, though. The one reason to move your screen back to base is gone and creep spread is just not important enough (in zvp and zvz atleast) to make up for the easiness of zerg production.Suggestions right now are mostly different, more forgiving versions of manual inject, or having auto and manu with a reward for manual. To me these suggestions feel like bad design, it fixes very few issues with something boring to begin with.The new mule and chrono, not only make things slightly easier, but seem better designed than ever. So why not think of something new for zerg macro?I came up with some changes to the queen and something new for the drone. Queens are by now not only an iconic part of every zerg's base, they can be sniped to harm the production and serve as an early game base defend. So I guess they should stay a vital part of zerg's macro.On the other hand I don't like while other races invest into multiple production buildings, we have only a queen ability and invest energy instead of resources.Instead of larva inject the queen can "nest" to a hatchery. Nesting is a channeling spell and costs no energy. While nesting the queen sits next to the hatch, plays a constant animation (or some other visual indicator), can't attack, but can be attacked itself. With a nesting queen hatcheries produce larvae 50% faster and up to a limit of 10.Reasoning: Like the new chrono constant channeling feels more elegant than an auto cast mechanic. As a zerg player when harassed you need to decide, should I cancel nesting to let the queen help defend, or keep it on the hatch? Every second has some impact, not only an inject every 30 seconds. Also no energy cost for the same reasoning the new mule costs nothing - the decision between a must have and something useful only in some situations is hardly a decision. To compensate maybe increase tumor cost to 50 energy. 50% increased speed of larva production is less than the current inject does, to make up for it I propose a second mechanic:The Drone sacrifices his life for a 4 or 5 larva inject on a hatchery. Can only be casted on a hatch with a nesting queen. Like the current inject there can only be one at a time per hatch and it needs ca. 30 seconds.Reasoning: A macro mechanic that does require mechanical skill and strategic thinking. It is only viable in some situations, not mandatory and comes as a trade for a drone (50 mins and one larva). For a ling focused playstyle you'd need to inject most of the time, but when you play greedy and tech to costly units you like to keep your drones. You look for a big fight and fast remax? better keep injecting ahead!Of course all values have to be balanced, but imo it brings not only skill, but also some depth into zerg macro. New players are able to build additional barracks when needed, so this is not too much to ask for, right? And a queen itself gives already some basic production for very few apm (just cast nesting once on a hatch). It's maybe too big of a change this far in the beta, but hopefully they'll realize something has to be done to injects and zerg macro. How do you like these proposed changes?I neither like hots nor lotv inject, so instead queen should be able to nest on hatch to give some small constant production increase. Drones would do the real inject for the cost of their life.

Daeracon Profile Joined March 2011 Sweden 197 Posts #2 I think you should add a vote for the dual option of manual inject at 25 energy and auto inject requiring higher energy. You brought this up in the beginning but then you do not have it as an option. You can't use your breaks to get over a hill

Insidioussc2 Profile Joined March 2015 Germany 94 Posts #3 On September 07 2015 23:46 Daeracon wrote:

I think you should add a vote for the dual option of manual inject at 25 energy and auto inject requiring higher energy. You brought this up in the beginning but then you do not have it as an option.



Yeah that's true, added new poll (the people who voted already please do it again, sorry) Yeah that's true, added new poll (the people who voted already please do it again, sorry)

Yiome Profile Joined February 2014 China 1687 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-07 15:11:33 #4 I am not to say zerg does not need a somewhat better macro mechanics but we are running out of time in this beta and I highly doubt they would change it in any huge way right now.

So autoinjects? I can't say I like it but I do feel I can have the freedom to do more micro and the game does feel more action pack than HotS. So as long as they keep the direction to give zerg better micro potential I'm okay with it. I will miss injects but it will not stop me from playing LotV because I do love how the game overall feels right now.





FLuE Profile Joined September 2010 United States 1012 Posts #5 I hate the idea of rewarding someone for doing something manual vs. automatic. Not a solution in my mind.



Would much rather a situation where hatches just produce more larva. Maybe up to 5, and allow an upgrade at Hive tech that lets hatches have up to 7 larva. Adjust larva spawn as needed. Let queens primarily be defense and creep spread units and maybe give them a new channel spell that uses up energy and lets them move faster on and off creep so that they can be even better on defense, move around the map better from base to base, and even get more involved on the offensive end. Make creep tumors cost 50 energy instead of 25 to offset an extremely fast creep spread.



One thing I find funny is that people keep saying "zerg macro too easy now!!" well, for starters that was always the point. Zerg macro should be easy.



But things are all relative. I could argue that Terran, being able to que up a ton of units especially when maxed is easy. As zerg once maxed you have to remember to keep making units back home, but for Terran you can have 10 marines que'ed up on each barracks, go into battle, lose your army and production back home gets going without having to do anything. I just don't see any race macro with MBS really being that hard. The inject mechanic just created an artificial way of created an unnecessary gap. It created a domino effect that wasn't fun to play against because you either play someone who injects well and you get run over or you play someone who is bad at injects, or you snipe some queens, and you get run over. It was hard to balance around a mechanic like that because it was so volatile, some people had 50 larva after a certain amount of time while others would have 12.



If you want zerg to just "stay busier" than already trying to fend off any number of harass in the game, manage larva vs. production of units and drones, spread creep.. then there are better more interesting ways to do it. As it stands, I don't see any issue with Zerg having a bit "easier" macro since that is the strength of the race anyway. It is suppose to be zerg flooding units across the map, and the other two races having much more effective units that can use position, AOE, etc. to stop it. It becomes the swarm vs. the strength. Somewhere along the line Terran started to be the one that looked more like zerg with units just streaming across the map non-stop. I'd love to see the game get back to having more individual identities for each race, starting with the zerg swarming and in response strengthening aspects of the other races in response.

Insidioussc2 Profile Joined March 2015 Germany 94 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-07 15:36:34 #6 On September 08 2015 00:11 Yiome wrote:

I am not to say zerg does not need a somewhat better macro mechanics but we are running out of time in this beta and I highly doubt they would change it in any huge way right now.

So autoinjects? I can't say I like it but I do feel I can have the freedom to do more micro and the game does feel more action pack than HotS. So as long as they keep the direction to give zerg better micro potential I'm okay with it. I will miss injects but it will not stop me from playing LotV because I do love how the game overall feels right now.







I agree, but as long as we are in beta I think we should be vocal about possible improvements I agree, but as long as we are in beta I think we should be vocal about possible improvements

TimeSpiral Profile Joined January 2011 United States 1010 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-07 17:02:43 #7 On September 08 2015 00:21 FLuE wrote:

*snip*



But things are all relative. I could argue that Terran, being able to que up a ton of units especially when maxed is easy. As zerg once maxed you have to remember to keep making units back home, but for Terran you can have 10 marines que'ed up on each barracks, go into battle, lose your army and production back home gets going without having to do anything.



*snip*



I mean ... no good Terrans really do this though.



Maybe in super-late game scenarios you will over-queue, but that typically means you're not scaling your production properly. And in your example, ordering units from production facilities is more comparable to morphing units from larva, not Spawning Larva. Spawning Larva is more similar to grabbing an SCV and building a new production facility, with the obvious difference that larva can build anything, and is free ; ) I mean ... no good Terrans really do this though.Maybe in super-late game scenarios you will over-queue, but that typically means you're not scaling your production properly. And in your example, ordering units from production facilities is more comparable to morphing units from larva, not Spawning Larva. Spawning Larva is more similar to grabbing an SCV and building a new production facility, with the obvious difference that larva can build anything, and is free ; ) [G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892

DeadByDawn Profile Joined October 2012 United Kingdom 476 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-07 17:27:34 #8 On September 08 2015 02:02 TimeSpiral wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 08 2015 00:21 FLuE wrote:

*snip*



But things are all relative. I could argue that Terran, being able to que up a ton of units especially when maxed is easy. As zerg once maxed you have to remember to keep making units back home, but for Terran you can have 10 marines que'ed up on each barracks, go into battle, lose your army and production back home gets going without having to do anything.



*snip*



I mean ... no good Terrans really do this though.



Maybe in super-late game scenarios you will over-queue, but that typically means you're not scaling your production properly. And in your example, ordering units from production facilities is more comparable to morphing units from larva, not Spawning Larva. Spawning Larva is more similar to grabbing an SCV and building a new production facility, with the obvious difference that larva can build anything, and is free ; ) I mean ... no good Terrans really do this though.Maybe in super-late game scenarios you will over-queue, but that typically means you're not scaling your production properly. And in your example, ordering units from production facilities is more comparable to morphing units from larva, not Spawning Larva. Spawning Larva is more similar to grabbing an SCV and building a new production facility, with the obvious difference that larva can build anything, and is free ; )

I learnt quickly a long time ago that it is better to build production than queue units. What taught it to me is after trading armies with Z they quickly remax and my production is trickling out of limited production facilities. So, as TimeSpiral says, no good Terran does this - and if your opponent does then whooo free win.

I learnt quickly a long time ago that it is better to build production than queue units. What taught it to me is after trading armies with Z they quickly remax and my production is trickling out of limited production facilities. So, as TimeSpiral says, no good Terran does this - and if your opponent does then whooo free win.

I'd love to see the game get back to having more individual identities for each race, starting with the zerg swarming and in response strengthening aspects of the other races in response.



I would love to see this too. I always thought of Zerg as swarmy, fragile but lots of them and some behemoths (Ultras), Terran as able to post up and defend areas on the map, and Protoss as high tech, powerful hitting units but with weaknesses to compensate. Now it seems a little messed up.



Drone sacrifice seems like it could be way too strong. I would love to see this too. I always thought of Zerg as swarmy, fragile but lots of them and some behemoths (Ultras), Terran as able to post up and defend areas on the map, and Protoss as high tech, powerful hitting units but with weaknesses to compensate. Now it seems a little messed up.Drone sacrifice seems like it could be way too strong.

xtorn Profile Blog Joined December 2013 4048 Posts #9 I like both ideas but only the queen nesting is safe to implement in my opinion. The drone sacrifice for larvae is potentially way too powerful in certain situations. Life - forever the Legend in my heart

Insidioussc2 Profile Joined March 2015 Germany 94 Posts #10 Then maybe only 3 larva? Or some small additional cost like 50? Bigger delay between injecting and larva spawning? I feel like it can be balanced with numbers. The goal with drone inject definitely is, to have it as an option in some situations, certainly not something you do blindly all the time.



I would really like a trade off between minerals and additional production. Massing ling/bling in early midgame ZvT became worse since the reduced inject and a macro hatch takes ages to build. Of course the fact that terran usually forces the zerg to open two base muta does not help. But even later roach/ravager/air is much more potent, not only against liberators, but because you hardly have the production for lings.

Some extra larva at the cost of economy would maybe help balance these different zerg styles.

Bastinian Profile Joined October 2014 Serbia 177 Posts #11 Its cool idea. Today I was thinking about mechanic that when drone makes a building, Zerg gets instant 1 larva, which couldn't be abused with like starting building and then cancelling it. It should work only when building is completed. Perhaps it would work better with queen "nesting" than drone sacrifice. Tryhard, road to pro-gamer! :) | twitter.com/bastiniansc2 | twitch.tv/bastinian |

DilemaH Profile Blog Joined September 2012 Canada 402 Posts #12 I like the idea of nesting, but I think it should be something that has to be done a few times, like injects. I think just making larvae spawn at double rate when a hatch is injected and removing the bonus larva would be cool, yet still difficult They don't want you to construct additional pylons

Pontius Pirate Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United States 1556 Posts #13 I prefer the previous patch's 2 larvae auto-inject, but I do agree that your nesting Queen idea is fascinating. I don't think it should allow up to 10 larvae stockpiled. Maybe 7. But it's definitely interesting, and I prefer it over HotS injects. "I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream

Turb0Sw4g Profile Joined August 2015 74 Posts #14 On September 07 2015 23:31 Insidioussc2 wrote:

Queen: Instead of larva inject the queen can "nest" to a hatchery. Nesting is a channeling spell and costs no energy. While nesting the queen sits next to the hatch, plays a constant animation (or some other visual indicator), can't attack, but can be attacked itself. With a nesting queen hatcheries produce larvae 50% faster and up to a limit of 10.





I litterally had the same idea as a revised macro mechanic for Zerg. This is perfect for a number of reasons:

forgiving for beginners (just like the new chrono)

introduces a threefold tradeoff for the queen's usage between macro (larvae), offense (creep), defense (auto attack and transfuse)

higher skill ceiling (in the early game players with strong mechanics will be able to spread creep and macro with a single queen plus the defensive usage requires more attention)

the mid to late game penalty of zerg macro is gone (no more backspace inject on multiple bases with nesting queens on each hatchery)

nesting queens introduce harrassment potential for the opponent



There are probably a couple more good reasons.I would really love to see this change in a future patch.

I litterally had the same idea as a revised macro mechanic for Zerg. This is perfect for a number of reasons:There are probably a couple more good reasons.I would really love to see this change in a future patch.

hitpoint Profile Joined October 2010 United States 1511 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-07 21:59:06 #15 Your suggestions are well thought out, but they seem even less elegant than Blizzard's fixes. To me, the fix is simple. Hatcheries are a zergs macro mechanic, just like in BW, just like terran and protoss have to add production. We should have hatchery clusters. I don't care for the queen, and I don't see the value in having them forever tied to the center of zergs economy.



I'd love for inject to be completely removed from the game, building queens becomes optional, and hatcheries can be tuned accordingly. Hatcheries can have less health, if ability to do damage with drops is a concern. Spawn rate of larva can be increased, or just the natural larva cap of a hatchery can be increased, or both.



Alternatively, manual injects for 2 larva, but have hatcheries spawn larvae quicker and with a higher larvae cap. All this does is make skipping/missing injects more forgiving. Maybe lower level players can forgo injecting entirely, but it will still be well worth it to inject for higher level players. It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.

Xamo Profile Joined April 2012 Spain 614 Posts #16 On September 07 2015 23:46 Daeracon wrote:

I think you should add a vote for the dual option of manual inject at 25 energy and auto inject requiring higher energy. You brought this up in the beginning but then you do not have it as an option.



This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75. This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75. My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.

Krikkitone Profile Joined April 2009 United States 1451 Posts #17 I think they need to make



1. Hatcheries v. Queens interesting choice

2. Inject v. Not Inject interesting choice



So I'd change it to

1. Inject (no autocast) can only be cast on an empty (0 larva) hatchery

2. It instantly (no 40 second delay) gives 3 larva

3. It costs 50 energy instead of 25



So 1 Hatch just about beats 2 Queens for larva production

But the queens can output their larva all at once. (Each full energy queen has 12 potential larva)

starimk Profile Joined December 2011 106 Posts #18 On September 08 2015 08:44 Xamo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 07 2015 23:46 Daeracon wrote:

I think you should add a vote for the dual option of manual inject at 25 energy and auto inject requiring higher energy. You brought this up in the beginning but then you do not have it as an option.



This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75. This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75.



What are you talking about? It won't use the optimum rate unless you manually inject. What are you talking about? It won't use the optimum rate unless you manually inject.

Pontius Pirate Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United States 1556 Posts Last Edited: 2015-09-08 01:14:34 #19 On September 08 2015 09:39 starimk wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 08 2015 08:44 Xamo wrote:

On September 07 2015 23:46 Daeracon wrote:

I think you should add a vote for the dual option of manual inject at 25 energy and auto inject requiring higher energy. You brought this up in the beginning but then you do not have it as an option.



This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75. This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75.



What are you talking about? It won't use the optimum rate unless you manually inject. What are you talking about? It won't use the optimum rate unless you manually inject.

Yeah, you'd be missing out on a full 44 seconds (blizzard time, not LotV time) of larva potential. That's actually too severe of a nerf. I think 30 energy is much more appropriate for auto-inject, if that solution were to be pursued. 35, tops.



A related idea would be to have auto-injects give 2 larvae and manual injects give out 3 larvae. Yeah, you'd be missing out on a full 44 seconds (blizzard time, not LotV time) of larva potential. That's actually too severe of a nerf. I think 30 energy is much more appropriate for auto-inject, if that solution were to be pursued. 35, tops.A related idea would be to have auto-injects give 2 larvae and manual injects give out 3 larvae. "I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream

Insidioussc2 Profile Joined March 2015 Germany 94 Posts #20 On September 08 2015 10:13 Pontius Pirate wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 08 2015 09:39 starimk wrote:

On September 08 2015 08:44 Xamo wrote:

On September 07 2015 23:46 Daeracon wrote:

I think you should add a vote for the dual option of manual inject at 25 energy and auto inject requiring higher energy. You brought this up in the beginning but then you do not have it as an option.



This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75. This is not a solution. After the first (delayed) inject, the rest will happen at an optimum rate. I mean, it takes the same time from 0 to 50 energy as from 25 to 75.



What are you talking about? It won't use the optimum rate unless you manually inject. What are you talking about? It won't use the optimum rate unless you manually inject.

Yeah, you'd be missing out on a full 44 seconds (blizzard time, not LotV time) of larva potential. That's actually too severe of a nerf. I think 30 energy is much more appropriate for auto-inject, if that solution were to be pursued. 35, tops.



A related idea would be to have auto-injects give 2 larvae and manual injects give out 3 larvae. Yeah, you'd be missing out on a full 44 seconds (blizzard time, not LotV time) of larva potential. That's actually too severe of a nerf. I think 30 energy is much more appropriate for auto-inject, if that solution were to be pursued. 35, tops.A related idea would be to have auto-injects give 2 larvae and manual injects give out 3 larvae.



To be honest I can't really see Blizzard implementing either. Having to skills doing the same only differ in execution difficulty and effectiveness seems like bad design to me. To be honest I can't really see Blizzard implementing either. Having to skills doing the same only differ in execution difficulty and effectiveness seems like bad design to me.

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