Carmac Profile Joined August 2007 Poland 374 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-03 21:31:28 #1 Hello, StarCraft II community,



There was a post here on TeamLiquid by Cloud stating several things about prize money which has not been paid out. Some of the complaints were addressed at ESL.



The thread has obviously generated a lot of comments - many of them conveyed deserved criticism, some had questions, others simply had the issue wrong. I'm here to clear things up a bit and shed some light on the matter without any bullshit.



1) Why doesn't prize money get paid out instantly?



[This paragraph is meant to explain the procedure.]



The three month period of waiting for prize money should be communicated more as an "up to three month period". There is paperwork involved in processing prize money - money is being paid out literally every week to dozens of players (ESL hosts a very large number of cups). If an event was held on German soil, then a prize money tax needs to be applied and paid out to the German government (the player pays that amount less of income tax at home).



The 90 days is there also because most companies (sponsors) pay in chunks on a quarterly basis (90 days). Companies (leagues) with venture capital to spend tend to not have this problem.



2) ESL owes prize money.



What Cloud wrote is true (at least as regards the ESL part). In total ESL owes 32,870 EUR and 400 USD to StarCraft II players. Intel Extreme Masters Global Challenges: Cologne, Guangzhou and New York have not been paid out yet, but they are within their 90 day period and are expected to be paid out on schedule.



ESL does pay out prize money. Actually, ESL pays out every week, though there is a delay for many tournaments. Over the years ESL has already paid out close to $10,000,000 in prize money (that's money paid out, not promised-and-unpaid) - I think that's more than anyone else in the industry. This is a pretty decent track record of having paid out money. The money comes eventually, which is why players still come and compete in ESL events.



The current situation is not excusable and the fact that he will get his money eventually is no good consolation to Cloud (or anyone else, for that matter). ESL is working hard to make sure this goes away. The issue is treated very seriously in this company – in spite of appearances threatening is not needed.



3) Miscellaneous issues.



a) Team Na'Vi for Counter-Strike (mentioned in Cloud's thread) is getting paid their outstanding winnings on a seperate agreement between them and ESL. There's also some outstanding money from the last Intel Extreme Masters World Championship (but not for StarCraft II) that will be paid out soon, so my tweet was only correct for SC2. I was unaware of it at the time.



b) ESL is not blameworthy every single time (not to take blame away or anything, but to shed more light on the issue). A team or participant registering for ESL tournaments normally specifies the recipient of prize money - it can be a person or a company ("pro gaming team"). It can happen that the team withholds it from the player(s) without them being aware of it. I was told about such an issue today, actually (you'd be surprised who…).



c) It happens that a team or player does not get paid out simply because they don't manage to provide ESL with a bank account to send the money to. Marginal cases.



d) The average prize money delay differs between individual tournaments, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be. Obviously it should not happen. People at ESL are aware of it and are working to make sure everything gets paid and that the delay in prize money goes away.



The CEO of the company was a pro gamer himself in one of the manliest of games ever made (next to BroodWar). He knows about the issue, he treats it seriously and he keeps telling me it will be fixed. A Lannister always pays his debts.



Throw your mud if you must. I'll read. www.intelextrememasters.com

Badfatpanda Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 9718 Posts #2 Thank you for another perspective on this in a well formatted post. I feel most of the industry side's posts were spur of the moment in that thread, good to hear! Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. -Beethoven | Mech isn't a build, it's a way of life. -MajOr | Charlie.Sheen: "What is sarcastic, kids who have no courage to fight?" | #TerranPride #yolo #swag -Naama after 2-0'ing MC at HSC VI

pHaRSiDE Profile Joined March 2011 United States 752 Posts #3 this should help clear some things up, but as usual some haters still gonna hate because drama in esports is fun to some. twitter.com/ThePharsideESL / ESL IEM NA Admin / WCS NA Qualifier Admin

Warlock40 Profile Joined September 2011 601 Posts #4 Excellent post, thorough and clear! Criticisms against you guys aside, I'm glad you are making an effort to address them.

Adebisi Profile Blog Joined June 2010 Canada 1621 Posts #5



Hey Carmac, always appreciate the no BS attitude.... The current situation is not excusable and the fact that he will get his money eventually is no good consolation to Cloud (or anyone else, for that matter). ESL is working hard to make sure this goes away. The issue is treated very seriously in this company – in spite of appearances threatening is not needed.



Can you explain what ESL is doing to make this go away? Or at least your goals as to how fast money should be paid out, and when you think your events will be able to pay out that quickly? Can you explain what ESL is doing to make this go away? Or at least your goals as to how fast money should be paid out, and when you think your events will be able to pay out that quickly?

hpty603 Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 246 Posts #6 Nice Game of Thrones reference, I enjoyed it I only play 2v2 to see how much of the map I can turn purple ~ Jinro

BroboCop Profile Joined December 2010 United States 373 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-03 20:07:22 #7 Very nice to see community outreach and an attempt at transparency/explaining. I think a better perspective to take is: you have a long way to go until you become ESEA or ESWC.

Carmac Profile Joined August 2007 Poland 374 Posts #8 On November 04 2011 05:03 Adebisi wrote:

Can you explain what ESL is doing to make this go away? Or at least your goals as to how fast money should be paid out, and when you think your events will be able to pay out that quickly?



It really depends on what money goes in, what goes out. Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities. It really depends on what money goes in, what goes out. Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities. www.intelextrememasters.com

MCDayC Profile Joined March 2011 United Kingdom 12847 Posts #9 Thank you for at least clearing it up. I still think that 90 days is extreme, but this is better than being left in the dark. VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG

PsiKiller Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 16 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-03 20:11:36 #10 This whole topic could have easily been summed up into "Because we haven't been paid, you're not getting paid".



The disconnect between the players that play at the event and the organizers is that for some reason you feel this is acceptable.

I doubt very much that the players would be complaining as much as they were if they were actually regularly paid within 90 days.

It's not the players responsibility to continuously contact organizers after their promised pay periods to hope they'll receive money eventually.

How tournament organizers allow players out the door without collecting all the information they require to pay the players is beyond me.

How the players leave questioning how and if they'll be paid is just insane.



A lot of this simply was boiling down to poor organization leading to the players questioning if they would ever be paid (and obviously in some examples, they never have been).





Please note, this is not a direct attack at the ESL, it's just my opinion in general about poorly run tournaments Yup

divito Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Canada 1212 Posts #11 On November 04 2011 04:57 Carmac wrote:

The 90 days is there also because most companies (sponsors) pay in chunks on a quarterly basis (90 days). Companies (leagues) with venture capital to spend tend to not have this problem.



This is something I addressed in Cloud's thread, and is something a lot of people are completely aware of or understand.



Kudos to Carmac for the post, and helping clear up some of the cloud (pun somewhat intended) over the idealization a lot of forum-goers have. This is something I addressed in Cloud's thread, and is something a lot of people are completely aware of or understand.Kudos to Carmac for the post, and helping clear up some of the cloud (pun somewhat intended) over the idealization a lot of forum-goers have. Skype: divito7

Serashin Profile Joined November 2010 235 Posts #12 This is like politics i for one have to say , i rather see the people dieing then lieing theres goes stuff back to years , ESL isnt trustworthy.



for comparision this is like Bush making a statement about terrorists.



Even if that may sound ridicilous... thats how it is.



We need a sort of KeSPA organisation for EU no statements from the worst organisation. wich didnt had just wrongdoings in this games but general in older competive played games. There are to many targets , and i smile everytime they try to defend and thinking they are smart.

(Max 20 chars) Profile Joined March 2011 149 Posts #13 On November 04 2011 05:01 pHaRSiDE wrote:

this should help clear some things up, but as usual some haters still gonna hate because drama in esports is fun to some.

What does this issue have to do with haters or drama? It's a serious issue and problems with payouts do exist. Even Carmac wrote it.

It just clears up why it's up to 90 days, which is a pretty damn long time. What does this issue have to do with haters or drama? It's a serious issue and problems with payouts do exist. Even Carmac wrote it.It just clears up why it's90 days, which is a pretty damn long time.

SnapCall Profile Joined December 2010 94 Posts #14 On November 04 2011 05:07 Carmac wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 04 2011 05:03 Adebisi wrote:

Can you explain what ESL is doing to make this go away? Or at least your goals as to how fast money should be paid out, and when you think your events will be able to pay out that quickly?



It really depends on what money goes in, what goes out. Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities. It really depends on what money goes in, what goes out. Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities.



So you are saying part of the problem is not only paperwork, but also that you don't have the money in time?

If so, how did you get in a situation where you don't have the prizemoney 90 days after the completion? If you think you can "catch up" just by normal day to day business the company can't run that bad, right?



So you are saying part of the problem is not only paperwork, but also that you don't have the money in time?If so, how did you get in a situation where you don't have the prizemoney 90 days after the completion? If you think you can "catch up" just by normal day to day business the company can't run that bad, right?

Archas Profile Blog Joined July 2010 United States 6505 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-03 20:17:56 #15 I'm dumb. The room is ripe with the stench of bitches!

riverkim09 Profile Joined November 2010 United States 289 Posts #16 What happens if you guys go over this time limit??

pHaRSiDE Profile Joined March 2011 United States 752 Posts #17 On November 04 2011 05:16 (Max 20 chars) wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 04 2011 05:01 pHaRSiDE wrote:

this should help clear some things up, but as usual some haters still gonna hate because drama in esports is fun to some.

What does this issue have to do with haters or drama? It's a serious issue and problems with payouts do exist. Even Carmac wrote it.

It just clears up why it's up to 90 days, which is a pretty damn long time. What does this issue have to do with haters or drama? It's a serious issue and problems with payouts do exist. Even Carmac wrote it.It just clears up why it's90 days, which is a pretty damn long time.



Oh I know its a serious issue that needs to be debated. But I'm talking about posts like this :



Oh I know its a serious issue that needs to be debated. But I'm talking about posts like this : On November 04 2011 05:13 Serashin wrote:

This is like politics i for one have to say , i rather see the people dieing then lieing theres goes stuff back to years , ESL isnt trustworthy.



for comparision this is like Bush making a statement about terrorists.



Even if that may sound ridicilous... thats how it is.



We need a sort of KeSPA organisation for EU no statements from the worst organisation. wich didnt had just wrongdoings in this games but general in older competive played games.

twitter.com/ThePharsideESL / ESL IEM NA Admin / WCS NA Qualifier Admin

Shanedon Profile Joined April 2010 United States 147 Posts #18 Thanks Carmac! Once I read the previous post I was getting worried that E-Sports were killing E-Sports. Gyar...

AA.spoon Profile Joined January 2011 Belgium 247 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-03 20:21:17 #19



lol. Nice posts won't pay the money you owe other people. On November 04 2011 05:18 riverkim09 wrote:

What happens if you guys go over this time limit??

Mwuahaha. Nothing dude. it happens the whole time. Mwuahaha. Nothing dude. it happens the whole time.

PsiKiller Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 16 Posts #20 On November 04 2011 05:18 riverkim09 wrote:

What happens if you guys go over this time limit??

Nothing, that's the problem.

The players just have to wait and hope they're on the top of the totem poll when the tournament organizers receive some of their sponsorship money. Nothing, that's the problem.The players just have to wait and hope they're on the top of the totem poll when the tournament organizers receive some of their sponsorship money. Yup

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