The writer/storyteller discusses the lifelong struggle to make peace with his amputation fetish, his ups and downs with taking meds, inheriting his dad’s pomposity, suicidal ideation and the benefits of martial arts in dealing with depression and anxiety.

Episode notes:



More About Our Guest

www.DylanBrody.com

www.twitter.com/DylanBrody

www.facebook.com/dylan.brody

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/dylan-brody

Buy his book The Modern Depression Guidebook

https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Depression-Guidebook-Dylan-Brody/dp/1939282381

http://vimeo.com/dylanbrody/singing <-- a one-woman musical he wrote and directed about bipolar disorder and addiction

Support Our Sponsors!

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp online counseling. To get a free week go to www.BetterHelp.com/mental Must be 18.

This episode is sponsored by Care/Of vitamin subscription service. For 25% off your first month of personalized vitamins go to www.TakeCareOf.com and use offer code MENTAL

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 394, with my guest, Dylan Brody. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, in case you’ve reached us by mistake. It's a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads—from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I am not a therapist or a doctor. This is more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The web site for this show is mentalpod.com, and mentalpod is the handle you can follow, uh, me at on Twitter and Instagram. There's also a Facebook page—I forget to mention that sometimes—for, for this show. Facebook.com/mentalpod? Yes, mentalpod. And, uh, so, if you (chuckles), if you haven’t been spied on lately, and you're interested in connecting to some listeners, go to facebook.com/mentalpod. There's also a forum for this show—I forget to mention that as well. There's a lot of things I forget. And you can access that through going to, uh, to our web site. And, it's a great place to introduce yourself, and find a specific talk, or topic to talk about. There's some really, really cool, compassionate people in the, in the forum. And, I pretty much stay out of it because, uh, (A) I … don't have time (chuckles) to go in there, and it would be overwhelming if I started getting into that, too, in addition to the surveys and responding to emails and, uh, recording people and etc., etc. But, I also kind of like that, uh, people can talk freely about the podcast. And if there's an episode they don’t like, uh, you know, they're, they're, they have the privacy to discuss that. Or, an episode they love, they can talk about that, too. I'm getting off on a tangent.

[00:02:07] Just got back two days ago from the European … would it be, would it be too much to call it a … touring extravaganza? Is that, is that a bit … is there a little bit too much hubris in that? I was in Ireland, Northern Ireland and Croatia. And … recorded some really, really great episodes in Ireland and Northern Ireland. And, um, I—Croatia was, was mostly just, uh, a way to, to unwind. And, um … I didn’t realize how much I needed rest, until I was floating on a raft in the Adriatic Sea, and I suddenly … felt so light and … I dunno, it's like this weight just kind of fell away from me. And … who knew that eight years without a week off, from hearing about people jumping off bridges or being fingered by their uncle, could take a toll on somebody? Turns out it (chuckles), it did! And I feel renewed, and refreshed, and I'm, I'm excited to be back, back into this. And, um, I also wanna thank the people that helped make the trip possible through GoFundMe. I wanna thank Dawn Ring (sp.), who helped set up the GoFundMe, um, to, to help raise money to contribute to the, to the trip. And I want to also thank BetterHelp, who is, uh … is, are? They're kicking in a little bit of money to, to, um, sponsor the episodes that are, that are posting … uh will be posting over the next, uh, month, month and a half. If I haven’t mentioned it yet, there's, I think, six episodes that, that I recorded. And I can't wait for you guys to hear 'em, cuz they're really, they're really good.

[00:04:23]And, speaking of BetterHelp, um, if you are at all curious about online therapy, go check it out. The feedback I get from listeners and friends that have tried it is great. I've been doing it for a year and a half, and I, I love it. So, go to betterhelp.com/mental; make sure you include the "/mental." Then they know that you came from the, the podcast. Betterhelp.com/mental. Fill out a questionnaire and then they'll match you with a betterhelp.com counselor and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is a good fit for you. And, you need to be over 18.

[00:05:05] Just a couple of, of, thoughts that I, I want to share with, with you guys, um, about the trip. What I'm … I don’t want share all of the moments that I, uh, experienced on the, on the trip right here because it would, uh, could probably be, it's, it's own episode. But, um, (chuckles), just a couple of moments I want to, to share with you. On the flight home, this guy comes up to me and he says, "Um, would—" and I was sitting on a window seat. And he said, "Would you mind switching seats with me?" And he was, he was standing there with his, his wife. And I said, "Oh, is there someone that you want to sit next to?" And, he said, "No. I just really like window seats." And, it occurred to me, what he was asking was for me (chuckles) to sit with his wife instead of him. I've been flying for 30 years , professionally; I have never (chuckles) had somebody wanna take the brunt of somebody they didn't want to be around. And here's where therapy and support groups and recovery kicked in. I was so afraid of saying no, and it's a stranger who I would NEVER again see, in my entire life, would think less of me. My impulse was to say, "Oh, sure." But I like a window seat, and I said, "Actually, I'd like to sit by the window." And that was it. And I was, I felt really proud of myself, the … that I walked through that fear and … I guess, you know, all I, all I really want is … to be loved by every single person on Earth, and to have them leave me alone until I feel like talking and then have them drop everything that they're doing. And I don’t think that that is too much to ask.

[00:07:31] Oh, I should also mention that, uh, I will be—to those of you who are monthly Patreon donors—I will be posting some pictures of the trip, and maybe, uh, an occasional video here or there. And another announcement is … and, right now, I'm kind of freaking out because, well, my brian is saying, "Well, what if you lose the energy to do this, then you’ve promised this to the people." But I'm just gonna say this anyway. The hope is in the next week or two, to begin, um, putting out a li-, mini, mini episode once a week, and I'm thinking maybe on Mondays would be nice, and it would probably be nothing more than a survey or two. I'm thinking maybe some hall of fame happy moments or awfulsome moments, uh, or maybe even a really moving shame and secrets surveys, uh, so that, that is the hope to begin doing that.

[00:08:33] All right, I wanna read, uh—and, I love that the, the serendipity, sometimes, of the surveys that I read, um, because I just got back from … taking a work trip, and, uh, a little bit of vacation, uh, in there as well. And I looked at the memorable vacation arguments survey, and there was some great ones in there. And, I wanna read those to you … um, or at least one right now, a … couple more are gonna be in the … surveys after the interview.

[00:09:12] This one is filled out by a woman who calls herself "Sonic Trash." And, uh, she writes, "I grew up poor, so I didn’t get to go on a lot of vacations growing up. However, my single mom has always had utterly terrible taste in men (truly, imagine the grossest stereotype of a stepfather, and that's every man my mom was ever with while I was growing up). When my mom started going to NA meetings at a men's—" and that stands for Narcotics, Narcotics Anonymous—"at a men's maximum security prison (?!) and met her newest boyfriend, an incarcerated man named Jack, she found an excuse for my sister and I to go on a vacation with her!" And I just want to inject a side note here. My understanding, uh, is that where 12-step meetings are brought into, uh, facilities, uh, like prisons or rehabs, uh, the rules generally are that you do not have contact with anybody in there, uh, while … you are doing the … No personal information is supposed to be given to them. And certainly, uh, (chuckles) not flirting with that person and making plans to hook up later. Just, just my understanding. Anyway, uh … "You see, Jack was transferred to a prison in a small town called Drumheller. Drumheller is known for two things. One, it's a dinosaur-themed town. It has one of the largest deposits of dinosaur bones in the world and the whole town is covered with crappy statues of dinosaurs, and there's actually a really good museum there. Two, it is also known for its prison. So, when Jack got transferred to Drumheller, all of a sudden, we were allowed to take a vacation there—" I love that your mom called it a vacation (chuckles). "This vacation was supposed to consist of a four-hour drive to the town where we would spend all day in a prison visiting room to spend the day with my mom and her boyfriend, while they made gross, inappropriate comments and surely wished that my sister and I weren’t there. The argument that ensued actually wasn’t between me and my sister or my mom, but between my mom and a prison guard when a test swipe of her keys showed positive results for cocaine. My mom actually had been sober for a while, and it was probably a glitch on the machine. But I got to watch my mom scream at the prison guard about letting us into this prison. How we drove four hours and she will have a cavity search, if that's what it takes. The prison guards wouldn't let up, and we just had to get into the car and drive away. The best part, because we didn't have to spend all goddamn day in a prison, my sister and I got to go to the dinosaur museum gift shop, and even to a snake store to meet weird animals. It was the best turnout for a set of 10-year-old girls, but not so much for my prison-wife mom. It's funny how you can be totally submerged in bullshit growing up, but only realize just how bad things were when you are 30 years old. And a childhood memory pops into your head, making you burst out laughing at the absurdity of it all. And also, how incredibly happy you are to be an adult who doesn’t have to follow their parent's bad decisions anymore. At the time, I didn't think twice about that particularly bad relationship. PS: Jack was in prison for murdering a woman. My mom had plans to marry Jack and for him to live with us in our trailer, as he was supposed to be paroled soon. The relationship ended when, shockingly, Jack turned out to be ridiculously possessive, angry at, and jealous of my mom. I wish I could say that her taste in men has changed, but it definitely hasn't. I am just glad that I don't have to listen to her have phone sex with murderers anymore." (Chuckles.) That is so fantastic. That is, uh, that could actually be an awfulsome moment, too. Thank you, thank you for sharing that.

[00:13:36] I wanna give some love to, uh, our sponsor, CareOf. Even when you try to maintain a healthy diet, it can be hard to get all the nutrients your body needs for long-term health. And CareOf is a monthly subscription vitamin service made from effective, quality ingredients that are personally tailored to your exact needs. So go online, you take their quiz, it asks you about you diet, your health goals, your lifestyle choices. And it's super easy to figure out what vitamins and supplements you specifically need in just a couple of minutes. And, uh, I did it and it was really simple, and they told me what, uh, vitamins and supplements would be good for me. So, uh, you don't have to worry about having eight bottles of stuff laying around when you run out, cuz your subscription box includes, uh, a 30-day supply of individually-wrapped packets. And, it's about 20percent less than similar bland, brands would ble (chuckles). It's about 20 percent less than similar brands would be at a local, uh, drugstore or health food store. And, uh, I just have them right there on my kitchen counter, and when I would wake up in the morning, I would either take the packet then. O if I wanted to take it later, uh, just pop a packet in my, uh, pocket, and take it to go. So, it's convenient, and, uh, I think you'll dig it. So, for 25 percent off your first month of personalize CareOf vitamins, visit takecareof.com and enter the offer code "mental." That's takecareof.com and enter the code "mental" for 25 percent off your first month of personalized vitamins. And I'll put the links to, uh, this and other stuff that I mentioned on the web site.

[00:15:31] And then, one more thing to read before we get to the, the interview with, uh, with Dylan. Also, a memorable vacation argument filled out by a woman who calls herself "The Pride Candle." And she writes, "My parents and I went to the big Yankee Candle factory store one afternoon while they visited me in college once (for reference, it's a huge, Christmas-themed, adult Chuckie Cheese). We had been having a particularly good day together, talking, laughing, and for once, not arguing. I guess I got a bit too comfortable, because as we walked through the store, sniffing candles, and admiring Christmas ornaments, I turned to my mother and just sort of spat out, 'Mom, I'm gay.' As if, on cue, in the middle of the store, on the dusty old stage., this horrifying glitch, uncanny, valley-esque animatronic band roared to life and started playing its afternoon show, just in time for my mother herself to short-circuit. No, she's hurling abuse at me while we pretend to look at glass bird ornaments, calling me a liar, saying I'm just confused and threatening to pull me out of school. ALL, while a bastardized C3PO is pantomiming 'Jingle Bell Rock' in the background. By the grace of god, I blacked out. When I came to, we were in the register line, with a basket full of monogrammed hand towels I don’t remember picking up. I became aware that I was drenched in sweat. I heard myself saying something like, 'You're probably right; I'm just confused. Not a big deal.' As abruptly as I had come out of the closet, I turned and ran right back in. We walked in silence from the register to the car, and rode in silence back to my dorm. I said goodbye and turned to hop out of the car, and heard my mother say behind me, 'You just had to ruin Yankee Candle.'"

Intro Music

[00:18:42] Paul: I'm here with Dylan Brody, who was recommended by someone that we can't remember. So if that person is listening, thank you for, uh, for—or, depending on how this goes, uh, we're gonna shake our fists at you. Either one.

Dylan: You know what? I am capable of thanking people while shaking my fist at them. I'm, I'm just THAT flexible in my feelings about people.

Paul: Dylan, you're originally from the East Coast. You're … how many years of age? Fifty …

Dylan: I am 52.

Paul: 52?

Dylan: Fifty-two years of age.

Paul: You're a playwright, uh—

Dylan: Yes.

Paul: Stand-up comedian.

Dylan: Former stand-up comedian.

Paul: Former stand-up comedian. You do some acting, you—

Dylan: Occasionally, yes.

Paul:--You blog on the Huffington Post. What am I missing?

Dylan: I also blog on Daily Kos.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: I am a humorist and storyteller.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: I'm the guy that David Sedaris has open for him when he's on the West Coast—

Paul: Nice!

Dylan: –which is a huge honor. Which is my favorite credit. I am a regular commentator on NPR's Off Ramp with John Rabe. I am a novelist …

Paul: You're a renaissance man.

Dylan: You know what? That is only because I wear tights. I wear tights and a doublet.

Paul: But you look good. You look good in them.

Dylan: Thank you. Thank you.

Paul: I was asking Dylan before we started recording, what are the issues that, uh, that he struggles with. And, uh, he said what we say in, uh, the recording business quite often: "Save it. Save it to (unintelligible)."

Dylan: "Save it for the microphone."

Paul: So what, what are the issues that you, uh, struggle with? Depression—

Dylan: Depression, a lifelong thing. Some anxiety, certainly social anxiety, which is very difficult in, in performing professions.

Paul: Well, you know, it makes sense to me in performing professions because what you're essentially doing is you're controlling the social situation.

Dylan: That's exactly right. I have learned over the years how to deal with crowds of people that aren’t all looking at me and adoring me. But it took a long time for me to get that. And, when that's what you crave and need, it makes parties very difficult, because either, uh, you—and by you, I mean I—will act utterly inappropriately, or will not get my needs met and, uh, will feel uncomfortable and have to leave. And I've just learned—and there's a point at some parties where I do just have to, I ghost.

Paul: Yeah. I, uh, I can hang at a party, unless it's a small party with all the people I know, and we know each other's sense of humor. That's the only place I feel comfortable. If it's a party with, just even three or four strangers in there, uh, I just feel the energy drain out of my body, UNLESS people start talking about stuff that's deep and meaningful.

Dylan: Yes.

Paul: And then, and then, I begin to, uh, feel charged.

Dylan: I understand that. There's a group of people that I've become friends with over the past, I want to say, eight years, uh, one of whom holds regular parties at her hours. And, at those parties, I feel as though I've found my tribe. I am capable, in those situations, of hanging out. And sometimes I'll go, I'll leave early if I start to get uncomfortable. But there are nights where I just hang out late into the night and late INTO the night, and sit with people that I like and can feel comfortable. But it really does feel as though, as an adult, I have finally found a tribe I am comfortable with. Also, I'm on medication now, and I suspect that helps with it all.

Paul: Oh, it helps greatly. It helped greatly. What are you, what are you on?

Dylan: I'm on Paxil.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: I'll tell you, I'll tell, (stumbles on words) I'll tell you a story. I was about to ask permission to tell you a story—we're doing a podcast (Paul laughs). You're not gonna object to me tell you a story. "Yes, Dylan. Would you just hang out and listen to me for my podcast, please?"

Paul: (Laughs) Hey, there are some podcasts that are like that. And I've had moments of that on here, so (Dylan laughs) …

Dylan: I … For years, I smoked pot all the time. And I didn't know I was medicating against depression and anxiety. I just knew that I felt human when I was stoned. And … in my early 30s, I went into a bad depression, and went into therapy and started studying martial arts. And my therapist told me that it was good that I had been smoking pout, because without it, I would have been suicidal. There was, he said, there was very little likelihood that I would have survived to ever see him, had I not been self-medicating.

Paul: Really?!

Dylan: Yeah. But then, uh, martial arts study allowed me to ween myself off pot and cigarettes after, you know, having smoke in my lungs non-stop since I was 14.

Paul: Was it because it gave you an outlet for your energy and a distraction, or was it because it brought you some type of peace?

Dylan: The martial arts?

Paul: Yeah. Or both.

Dylan: All of those thing did—um … I'll come back to the story about medication in a moment. But I'm happy to talk about martial arts (chuckles) as much as you want. Um …

Paul: And you're like a black belt or something?

Dylan: I'm a Tae Kwon Do master, fourth (unintelligible) black belt. I have kido instructor with a third (unintelligible) black belt, and, uh ki kumdo black belt, first (unintelligible) …

Paul: Wow!

Dylan: And—

Paul: And he's wearing a vest. It's every confusing, the messages that are being send.

Dylan: Well, because I approached as art and intellectual endeavor, even as it was requiring that I live in my body in a way I never had before. One of the things that would happen as I was studying, is that I would go home from class, weeping in my car. And I asked, uh, my master about it and my therapist about it separately. And my master said, "Huh! You maybe need to sometimes cry." And my therapist said, "Yeah. You've been storing emotional life in your muscle memory since you were a child. And as your muscles are learning to control themselves in different ways, it's all getting released. And that's perfectly natural. Allow that; don't hate yourself for it." And I said, "Have you met me? If I hated myself any more, I'd be Richard Lewis (Paul laughs)." But, uh, but because I, I use therapy to try out the new material, uh … So, yeah, it was all of those things. I was a non-athletic kid and I'd really internalized a lot of insecurity about that. And that began to melt away, as I studied. And also, I was learning my body in a way that I had never been able to … partly because of the internalized sense of non-athleticism. Forgive me, I, they, couldn’t see that I was doing a visual Woody Allen impression for a moment—

Paul: Yeah, he was doing a little (unintelligible).

Dylan: It's, it's my Bradley Whitford acting technique. Um, uh … I was, uh ... So that was all going on. And then there was, and then, I was … I couldn’t do stand-up, cuz I had been a stoned, left-leaning political comic for so many years. And I didn't know who I was, if I wasn’t stoned and smoking on stage. I just, I didn't know who I was without that. So I stopped doing stand-up, and for about 10 years I was doing eight classes a week at the Marshall Arts Studio. And that is enough to keep you focused on something other than your own internal spirals. And then, there was a point at which, a friend of mine noticed I was depressed again. I hadn’t noticed. He noticed and suggested that I try medication. It turned, it turned out later that he was also suffering from depression and wanted to see if medication worked for me before he tried it—

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan:—because clearly you're having problems again. And I went home to my, uh, wife. And I said, "This friend of mine said I should try medication." She said, "Oh, I'm so glad you're considering it." I said, "Woah, what, what, what? Where that—" And she goes, "Yeah, you’ve been depressed for months." So I, uh …

Paul: Was that a relief to hear her say that?

Dylan: No, it was shocking.

Paul: Were you embarrassed?

Dylan: Oh, deeply. I really thought that the Marshall Arts alone had handled it for me—

Paul: So you thought you were walking around looking like a Zen master, and everybody was like, "Wow, this guy really needs to get his shit together."

Dylan: I thought, yeah. And I was being a dick to everybody. And, as soon as she said that, I realized what a dick I was being to everybody. And there are people—I would go into the studio, and I would go up to instructors who were with a student and I would correct them on the one flaw in what they were doing, cuz it was all I could see.

Paul: Wow.

Dylan: I was just (stumbles on words), and this behavior, I remember from my dad for my whole life. My dad who, when I told him I was getting medicated for depression, said, "I don't know what makes you think you have the right just to be happy all the time, Dylan."

Paul: Wow.

Dylan: But—

Paul: Was you dad a know-it-all, or just hyper-critical?

Dylan: My dad was, for 10 years, the associate provost for the arts at MIT. My dad is, uh, intellectual artiste, who protected his own art from any of the taint of the marketplace—(chuckles) I said taint—uh, by supporting himself in academia. He is, "I am not just pompous; I am second-generation pompous."

Paul: (Laughs.) (In background) Want a water?

Dylan: Oh, yes, please. That would be lovely, uh, cuz I left my coffee in my car.

Paul: Second-generation pompous.

Dylan: So, I, um … The first thing they tried me on was Prozac. And I was still teaching at the stu—I don't teach at the studio anymore at this time. But, at that time, I was still teaching at the studio. And, I had been on Prozac for three days. And I'm teaching the adult aikido class. And a younger black belt is working with a partner on a demo that he's gonna do at a, at a tournament. And it was distracting and couldn’t stay focused, and I asked them to just keep it down on the other side of the studio, please. And they said okay. And then, uh, their noise level rose again slowly, cuz they're kids and they're working on a thing and they're focused on what they're doing. And I asked them again to be quiet. And this was one of the instructors that I'd been irritating for months by being a jerk without realizing it, and he had had enough. And he came over an got in my face in front of a class. And … lectured me on having proper respect for him and minding my tone with him, and how tired he was of all of it. And, in my mind, all I could do was focus on my breathing to keep from hitting him. I was ready to just go. And … I was then in my early 40s, and he was in his in his … late teens. And while I was higher in rank than he is, he is more flexible than I am. He is younger and more testosteroney than I am—

Paul: All you had to say was, "I was in my late 40s, and he was in his late teens (chuckles)."

Dylan: There's, there's like, there's any number of reasons that it is quite possible that he could’ve just kicked my ass. And all I was doing was just focusing on my breathing and not, "Don't so this. Don't—"

Paul: He was over 18 though, right?

Dylan: Yes.

Paul: Okay. Cuz I was like, if you are thinking about punching (laughs) somebody that was under 18, man, that's really, uh—

Dylan: It doesn't matter. There's no, there's no time when a Tae Kwon Do master should be thinking about hitting someone for something they're saying. That's just not how it works. And, uh, I was trembling, and I got in my car after the class—I, he walked away, I finished teaching class. I got in my car. I called the nurse advisory pharmaceutical people … I'm pretty sure that's the title. And I said, "I just had this experience." And they said, "Stop taking it. Usually we get this call after someone else has put someone through the wall."

Paul: Wow.

Dylan: "I think it's you're martial arts training that kept you from hitting him. Stop taking it." And I said, "Well shouldn't that be on the contra-indication: Do not take when interacting with human beings? Like, come on. And she said, "Talk to you psychiatrist tomorrow about finding a new prescript—" but that's not there. So I stopped taking it, and I called the psychiatrist. And I said, "That wasn’t good." And he said, "Let's try you on the next." And he put me on Paxil. And it immediately, I'm like within a week, my depression was changing and I was feeling a difference in mood. And after—

Paul: And what was that first one?

Dylan: Prozac; that was Prozac. And the Paxil really helped. And after eight or ten months, I got a note from him through the email that said, "Hey. Usually after this amount of time, we start to ween you off. Would you like to try that?" And I said, "Sure." So I cut back from a pill a day to three-quarters of a pill a day, cuz they don’t really know how the psychiatric drugs works. That's why they have to sort of try different ones until they find the one that works for you. And then, it's very complicated, cuz it's, it's all … very detailed chemical balances that they're manipulating—

Paul: Oh, I've been doing meds for—

Dylan: What are you on?

Paul: Sixteen years … Oh, well, how, how long do you have?

Dylan: All right, we'll come back to it.

Paul: A lot.

Dylan: I understand. And I said, "Sure." Cut back from a pill to three-quarters of a pill a day. And after three days, I had a meeting, down on the, on the west side. And I was driving down the 405—and I always leave plenty of time to get places. I'm, I'm neurotically punctual. And on the way there, I was figuring out the things I was gonna be pissed off about when I arrived. There was this internal monologue that was incredibly familiar, but that I hadn't had for eight months, where I as figuring I was gonna … I'll complain about how bad the traffic was—it wasn't that bad. And I better not run late because of this traffic, and, and they, they better not make me pay for parking when I get there for a meeting that's about a job that I don't have—I am not PAYING their parking. And then, you know, there was a spot right out front (laughs). I pulled into the spot right out front, and I called my psychiatrist and I said, "Listen. Tell me if this makes any sense. I have reduced my, uh, dosage by a quarter of a pill for three days, four days, and I can feel all the darkness on the planet gathering at the base of my spine and crawling up into the creases in my brain, to, to infect my thoughts with negativity and rage. Is that possible?" And he said, "Wow! And you say this was your first depression we were treating?" And I said, "What, I never said that. I've been depressed since I was a child." And he said, "Stay on it! Apparently, you are supremely attuned to this medication. It is the one you need. Stay on it. If it comes back, then we'll figure out new dosages, but don't stop doing it." And I just upped by that quarter pill again. And I've been fine ever since.

Paul: That's fantastic. It's—and I was shocked when it, when he wanted to ween you off it, because usually psychiatrists are the other way. It's like, if this is working for you, man, what, don't change a, don't change a thing—

Dylan: What he said was that most people, uh, want to be off meds. And I know it's true for me, too. I still sometimes think, "I should be able to ween myself off. I understand now how it's in my head, and surely I can control it." Which is a load of crap (laughs). But I think it. I just, I want to be able to, I want to be stronger than the chemicals that make up the me that wants the be stronger than—It makes no sense. But also, he said, uh, "If it's a first-time bout of depression that is caused by something, if it is sadness that is hit, and then it sort of becomes habitual, then 50 to 70 percent of the time, I think he said, they can treat it and the balance is restored and people are fine.

Paul: Yes, if it was event-driven.

Dylan: But it was NOT event-driven. It was event-driven by the fact that I'm, I'm Russian-Jewish and I was raised by Russian Jews (Paul chuckles) and, uh, I've had a lifetime of training—

Paul: And I had a dad who was an academic art snob—

Dylan: Yeah, exactly.

Paul:—who withheld love.

Dylan: Exact—well, he did not withhold love.

Paul: No?

Dylan: No. But, part of his, uh, offering of love includes being what he would consider completely honest—

Paul: To me, that's not love.

Dylan:—what turns out to be, sometimes, simply a venting of, the inability to see anything but flaw.

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan: And, that means that, you know … I'll give you an example. I wrote my first novel, uh—still unpublished, available, if anyone listening is in the publishing industry—when I was in high school. Started at 14, finished when I was 17. And I used it in lieu of one of the essays to get into college without a high school diploma. I sent it to my dad to read. Remember, 17 years old, 320-page novel, adventure fantasy, with characters and story arc and dialogue and action and descriptive and everything you need to have a novel. And he read it and said, "There's some really good work here, Dylan. I wouldn’t show this to anyone; it's the kind of thing that could ruin a career."

Paul: (Laughs.) That is the most mixed message I have ever heard.

Dylan: (Laughs.) Now, as an adult looking back, I realize that there is no novel that a 17-year-old could submit to a publisher that would cause them to go, "Well, I never want to see anything this guy does again (Paul laughs)." But, my father was a writer who was finding safety in academia (Paul: Yeah), and he had his own questions and qualms about the publishing industry and how it all works and what, what hurts a career and what makes a career. And, he was trying to protect me—

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan:—in all the wrong ways.

Paul: I, from all the people that I have interviewed, the most common mistake that a parent makes is trying to protect their child from failures or criticism, and they usually wind up, um … smothering that kid, or sucking the joy out of their life because they're like, "Aye, I don't want my kid to get," you know, too much on a high, cuz then they're gonna come crashing down.

Dylan: Oh yeah. But, in my family we say, "This, too, shall pass," when we hear good news.

Paul: Yeah (laughs).

Dylan: It's, it's that kind of a world view. And it … and it's only in the last 10 years that I learned that that's a world view; it's not, it's not a better world view than any other. It is not more attached to reality. It is not wiser, it is not smarter, and it is not healthier.

Paul: No, it's definitely not healthier.

Dylan: It's, it's just a world view.

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan: And it's one that my father will hold on to until he dies, uh … May he rest in peace already.

Paul: So what was childhood like? Give me some snapshots from, from childhood.

Dylan: Oh, man. I grew up in a, in a … small, upstate New York town. Schuylerville, NY, that's outside of Saratoga Springs.

Paul: What's it called?

Dylan: Schuylerville.

Paul: Skyverville?

Dylan: Schuylerville.

Paul: Schuylerville.

Dylan: It's outside of Saratoga Springs. It is where the Battle of Saratoga actually took place. It is where General Schuyler and General Burgoyne faced off at the Saratoga landmark battle memorial.

Paul: Were they smoking Saratoga cigarettes?

Dylan: Yes, yes they were. And they knew where to fight, because it was called the Saratoga landmark battle memorial (chuckles). Like, "Oh, this must be the place."

Paul: Was one of them wearing dock siders and, uh, yachting cap?

Dylan: Yes, yes.—

Paul: With a sweater around his neck?

Dylan: Schuyler. General Schuyler wore the, the dock siders, and General Burgoyne. Uh. Wore, uh, uh … I don’t know where I'm going with this—

Paul: A nice pastel tennis outfit.

Dylan: Yes, he was wearing—that's exactly—he wore a, uh, uh, sweater vest, was the phrase I was looking for. He wore a sweater vest, and, uh, and golf pants (Paul laughs), because that's how you dressed in those days. I, in fact, lived at the corner of Burgoyne Street in Schuylerville. It's like, it's steeped in Revolutionary War, uh … history, and, and tradition. And, what I used to say on stage is that, um, on the day that we moved into Schuy—I was four years old, and we drove all night in a huge, pink Plymouth. I don’t know why my parents had a huge, pink Plymouth. But it was a, a ... it's was the kind of car that you could launch smaller vehicles from.

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: And, uh, we drove all night, and it was, the sun was just coming up as we pulled into Schuylerville into our new house. My dad was gonna be teaching nearby at Skidmore College. And we drove past the sign that said "Welcome to Schuylerville. Population: 954." And that afternoon, in a Norman Rockwell gesture, the old white-haired mayor himself, drove out to the sign because we had moved in.

Paul: And changed that number.

Dylan: And with a bucket o' paint, he amended the sign to say "and some Jews."

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: It was that kind of a town. The mill, the paper mill closed two years before we moved in, so it was an impoverished town. The Vietnam War was still on, and with the exception of me, with the exception of my family, every family had someone that was fighting in Vietnam or had returned from Vietnam or hadn’t. And my family were lefty, pinko, peaceniks; we went on peace marches and protested the war.

Paul: Which I imagine probably upset some of your neighbors.

Dylan: Yeah, there was a lot of—and, and that upset them. The fact that we were Jewish upset them. There were several boys who—I, I, I say that I was beaten up regularly as a child, by kids on the way home from school. The truth is I suspect it was only seven or ten times over the course of my childhood, but I was frightened all the time when I was outdoors. I was frightened all the time. There was a particular family that had a bunch of boys, any of whom would beat me up, if they were in the right mood to. And there were a couple of other kids at school who would just … vent their familial rage at me. I read a lot of comic books.

Paul: What were your favorites?

Dylan: When I was … seven to ten, seven to eleven, it was the DC stuff—

Paul: Um-hum.

Dylan: I had the big hard-backed Batman from the 30s to the 70, and Superman from the 30s to the 70s, as well as every week's new—

Paul: Wow!

Dylan: —installment, uh, as they came into Larman's (sp.) newsroom. I didn’t own all of them; I … At that time, I got a quarter a week allowance, which was enough to buy A comic book. But, when it was still Bill Larman who ran Larman's newsroom, I was allowed to sit on the floor and read all of them before I decided which one to buy. And then, eventually, he sold it someone else, who put up a sign that said, "This is not a library (Paul laughs)." And it made … that a little more difficult. And then, when I was about 12 or so, I began to, to discover, uh, Marvel. And, uh, I remember having, uh, black light, Silver Surfer poster on my wall—

Paul: Um-hum. Did you ever get into, uh, R. Crumb?

Dylan: I was aware of R. Crumb, and I read some R. Crumb. He was never my favorite thing, um … partly because, uh, my (chuckles) I just realized (chuckles) this is, you asked me this. My parents, among other weird issues they have, my parents are tremendously weight-conscious. We—anytime we visited anybody, family, friends of theirs, afterwards we got in the car to go home, the conversation was about the weight of the people we had just seen.

Paul: Wow!

Dylan: "Well, he's gained weight." "Yeah, but she looks terrific—" Like, that conversation was the first things that happened in the, in the car. My father told me over and over again that he had been a fat kid and was never gonna be a … overweight again. And, R. Crumb has a thing for heavy women, and all of the characters in his books were just unappealing to me, because I, you know, I had … it had been so instilled in me, this idea that if there is any excess weight, it is, uh, a sign of some deep inner sadness and, uh, uh, sexual dysfunction. And, those people should be pitied and looked down upon, and, uh, disdained. So, no, R. Crumb never did anything for—I, you know, I have—and I've talked about this before, I have a, a deep-seated lifelong fetish for amputees. And, when I was in high school or college, I discovered a single issue of, uh, a comic book called "Amputee Love" that was the only thing I had ever seen that told me there were other people in the world that were like me.

Paul: Wow, that must have been amazing for you.

Dylan: It was an extraordinarily moment. From Last Gasp Comics in San Francisco, and it was an underground comic, and it was a source of shame, at the same time that it was a great relief. And then the internet came, (chuckles) and I found out that, uh, there are a whole bunch of us secret people scared and hiding in the world.

Paul: Whatever turns you on, there is somebody else—

Dylan: Yeah.

Paul:—if not, millions of other people out there.

Dylan: I joke about it in my act for years, that I wrote because Larry David—When I was 17, I got in at The Improv. And Larry David had a joke in his act that I can't remember. But it affected me so deeply, that I knew that I needed to write a joke about that. And this was before I started coming out about it and talking about it openly. And I only talk about it openly—it's still a source of shame. And every time I talk about, makes me very uncomfortable and tense. But I feel as though there are enough people living with shame, and if I can just talk openly about it, despite a little bit of shame, it might open up some people's worlds toward who they are. But Larry David had a joke that began, uh, "Men have a perversion for everything." And I don’t remember where he went from there; I just remember him saying it and me going, "Oh, he's exploring. I gotta, I gotta (unintelligible), I've got to do this. Years later, like three or four years ago, I ran into him in a parking lot. And I said, "Larry" And he said, "What (Paul laughs)?" And I said, "Can I ask you a question?" And he said, "Yeah, go ahead." And it was very clear there was some question everybody asks him; I don't know what it is.

Paul: And didn’t he know who you were, or …

Dylan: No.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: I … there was a screenplay I wanted to get to, and there were reasons, other reasons that I wanted to talk to him, and we had all the conversations we needed to have after that. But I said, "You used to have this joke: Men have a fetish for anything." And he said, "No, that wasn't it. I remember this. It was—I love this joke. It was, uh, 'Men have a perversion for everything. Men have a … perversion …' I remember saying this." And he was looking up at the sky and seeking back into his memories from 40 years ago, 30 years ago. And like, "Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember what it was, but, boy, thanks for reminding me of that. That was a good joke, whatever it was." And then he walked off into the building.

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan: And it was nice that … that he remembered liking that joke, uh, cuz it was such an import—but I still have no idea what his joke was.

Paul: So, has there been an arc to that, that fetish in your life, uh, in terms of how you've, you view yourself (Dylan: Oh, yes.), um, how you … Is it still a, the primary thing that, that, that turns you on?

Dylan: Absolutely.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: And I should say that, uh, my wife has all her original parts.

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: Her, her, her only flaw is her physical perfection, as far as I'm concerned.

Paul: We had, we've had guests on here who, um, had, uh, diaper fetish, um, a woman who, um, becomes aroused by, uh, people vomiting, um, the list goes on and on. And the surveys that we read, that people fill out anonymously, uh, I've read every possible thing that you could, uh, imagine. And it's fantastic.

Dylan: The human psyche is extraordinary.

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan: And … the ability of the human psyche to imprint on things sexually is just remarkable (chuckles). And, to some degree, I'm sure, you know, it, it had to do with the sheer number of us that there are in the world (chuckles) now. But, also, you know, I get the sense that it's just, there's a moment in childhood—at least for men. I … women don’t seem to be as fetish-driven as men do. Men seem to—

Paul: Oh, no. They … yeah, trust me.

Dylan: They are?

Paul: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dylan: Okay.

Paul: According to the surveys that, that, that I read, and women that I know.

Dylan: It seems that there's a point … this is my theory. I say it seems, as though I am a, a, a studied doctor on this—I don't, I have no idea. My theory is this: There is a point in childhood at which certain hormones turn on for the first time and touch the proper synapses to create sexual response. And whatever happens to be crossing your mind at that moment—

Paul: Absolutely.

Dylan:—is then (chuckles) forever imprinted as the thing, and you're just, you're done.

Paul: Yep.

Dylan: And it's, it's—

Paul: It's just the roll of the dice.

Dylan: Very strange and, and … Naturally, in a, a society that perpetually shows images of breasts and images of legs and images of women in bikinis, there're gonna be a great number of men who turn on at the right moment that they happen to be looking at and thinking about those things.

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan: And then, everything else on the planet gets one or two of us—

Paul: (Laughs.) So, uh, what are ... anxiety, depression, you feel like those are in check now, with the … thanks to, to meds?

Dylan: Most of the time. Yeah.

Paul: What are some of the anxious or depressed thoughts that are, uh, the greatest hits of, you know, bouncing around in your skull?

Dylan: Well, even, even with the, uh … even with the meds … I will frequently rock myself to sleep with suicidal ideation. I have, you know … the, um … there's a, there's a book that I had out called "The Modern Depression Guidebook" that's gonna be—I'm gonna re-release it as an eBook very soon, um, that it takes the approach that, uh … you’ve never done anything right in your life; you might as well at least be good at depression.

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: And … (stumbles on words) I think it's a really funny book. And it … near the end, there's a whole chapter on suicidal ideation. I am very creative in my suicidal ideation. I figured out when I was, like, 14 … that … a lot of people consider suicide, a lot of people attempt suicide, a lot of people commit suicide. I think more than we like to admit.

Paul: Um-hum.

Dylan: And, I have always felt that life itself is an artist's greatest work, that the arc of the life has its own vision and its own … and you can't fully control it, like all art. You're sort of riding, the, the … weft and the, the wave. Is that right? The … the wax and the wobble …

Paul: Wax and the wane?

Dylan: You're riding the flux of the whole thing. And doing your best to keep the pieces making sense. And if you're going to commit suicide, you should make it damned entertaining. So, for instance, I have had the thought that you could drill, use a diamond-headed drill bit to put a hole in your rear windshield, and buy a long spool of piano wire, that gets attached to your, uh, rear axle. Run through the hole, coil it on the back seat, and then noosed around your neck. Giving your enough time to get up to speed on the freeway, before it, uh, snaps through, severs your head, pulls the wire through the hole, and wraps it around your axle, disappearing completely as the car veers off to the right … naturally, when you’ve stopped applying pressure, and winds up, you know, in a ditch on the side with the engine running, windows up, doors locked, and you inside beheaded.

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: Just leave a really cool Columbo mystery for someone to have to figure out.

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: That, I think … I, I am 80 percent certain that there are people in the world who do not put themselves to sleep telling themselves those kinds of stories at night.

Paul: There's quite a few, uh, but they're, the listeners to this show. And they share it with their, their surveys, how often. You cannot believe how many people, on their way home from work, scan to see things to run in to or off of.

Dylan: Right. I think that a side of depression that I bat frequently … as frequently as I do think about suicide. And it's less frequent than it used to be, but it's not gone. When sadness hits me, I can go into an anxiety spiral about whether I'm becoming depressed.

Paul: Um-hum.

Dylan: (Laughs.)

Paul: I, I like to this of depression as … when it's a depression that you tend to manage on and off, uh, I, I, like to think of it as a stalker that, once you think you’ve gotten away from it, you’ve moved to another town, there's a ring at the doorbell, you open the door, and it says, "Did you really think you could escape me?"

Dylan: (Laughs.) Yeah, there's that. Yeah.

Paul: And, so ,when you're having the good times, you're like, "How long is this gonna last? Is this, is this a one-day thing? Is this, is—Am I gonna get a week? Am I gonna get a MONTH?"

Dylan: Yeah. Money triggers anxieties for me. And, it's weird, cuz—

Paul: Lack or abundance of?

Dylan: Yes.

Paul: Either?

Dylan: That's correct. Anytime I have to specifically really think about it—

Paul: I see.

Dylan: I handle all the bill paying in our household. And, my wife makes a steadier income than I do. Sometimes, I make chunks of money. And, she makes money every … week, every, well, every month that she's paid. But she, you know, she, she makes a steady living. And I make a, an intermittent living. And … if I feel like we're short on money, it creates anxiety that is, that, you know, I'm doing it wrong as an adult. I'm not making my share. She's doing everything she should be doing, and what is wrong with me as a grown-up, that I don't have steady damn income? When we have a big pile of money, as happens occasionally, then I go into an anxiety spiral (chuckles) about … Should I be handling this in some way other than in the way I do? Instead of paying off debt, is there something I should be investing in? Is that how a grown-up would do it? I'm not fully … I don't have a full understanding of the eco-, economics of adulthood and it must be my shortcoming.

Paul: And so, so the through line of all it, really, is that, I don’t know. I'm gonna make the wrong decision … right?

Dylan: GET OUT OF MY HEAD, DAMNIT!

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: Yes.

Paul: Cuz, that's for me, that's the thought that just curses me constantly. Am I, am I where I'm supposed to be right now? If, if, I am, am I doing it the right way? And that's one of the reasons why support groups, for me, have been such a lifesaver, because when I'm in there, that part of my head shuts off, cuz I get to connect with other people. If I'm at a party, and somebody starts, brings up a topic that pretty heavy and people start … opening up and getting vulnerable, that part of my head ... quiets.

Dylan: I get that. I totally get that.

Paul: Deep human connection is the only thing that can really—

Dylan: Weirdly, when I make a decision, any decision, I feel much better; I'm fine. I'm FINE with it. And I—

Paul: It's the lead up.

Dylan: Once I do it, I know it's all lateral movement, that there are different ways that different—that there's no right answer. My mom used to ask, every time we visited (Paul: Um-hum), when we were gonna have kids. "When are you gonna have kids?" Finally, I said, "Stop asking me." So then, she would wait until she had my wife alone. "When are you gonna …" And … my wife came to me and said, "Will you tell your mom to stop asking us this?" And, finally I said, at dinner, I said, "Mom. We are not going to have kids because I do not like children." And my mom said, "Oh. You get that from me!"

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: And she said it with absolutely, genuine joy of having something that she could share with me. I started telling the story on stage … and when she heard it get a laugh, she said, "See, I am funny." (Paul laughs.) Yes.

Paul: What the—

Dylan: It's hilarious how you continue to do the psychic damage well into my 50s.

Paul: What is, are there any other things that you, you struggle with other than the, the depression, the anxiety, and the shame? That's a nice, that's a good triumvirate.

Dylan: No, it's mostly those things … The, the, the fetish is a struggle in some ways. But, uh, mostly just in terms of the, the shame. You asked me earlier about the arc of that.

Paul: Um-hum. Is it hard to—I guess not, with the internet. I was gonna ask if it's hard to find pornography that's, uh, related to that.

Dylan: The pornography—okay, now, there's some porn that I find fairly uninteresting. Like, legitimate porn around it that you can find now. I found that comic book when I was a kid. And then, uh … I had a copy that I … cherished and read over and over again—

Paul: I love, by the way, that we opened the door, as you're going into detail about, about this.

Dylan: That's fine, we're in a lawyer's office. Uh … and then in a … in a moment of self-loathing, I threw it away. And then searched for it until I found another copy. I eventually gave it away to someone else who needed it more than I did. And, I remember going into adult bookstores to look for, do they have anything, is there anything? Is there anything? Is there, just, anything? And, occasionally, there was a, a horrible, low-end porn magazine called "Nugget" that would run a piece on it. Occasionally, in Penthouse letters, there would be a thing. But … nothing! And then, in the back of a "Nugget" magazine, there was an ad for, what was Amp House, I think it was called—that sold, uh, devotee materials—it was the first time I learned that word. And, write here for a … write here to this address for a catalogue. And I wrote to the address—

Paul: And how old were you?

Dylan: This was in I was in my … mid-20s.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: I wrote to the address, and was … still lost in enough shame, that I altered my last name slightly … as though that was somehow gonna protect me from the strangers running a small company in Minnesota. And then I got a, I got a catalogue, along with a letter that said, "Dear Sam—" I hadn’t said Sam anywhere—"I don’t know why you feel the need to pretend you're not who you are. I got your request. I'm happy to send you a new catalogue, but I thought we knew each other well enough that you would feel comfortable. I recognized your address and looked it up in my records—"

Paul: Oh my god!

Dylan: And Sam was an old man who lived upstairs from me—

Paul: NOOO!!!

Dylan:—in the apartment upstairs. And … I wrote back to the woman and said, "I'm not Sam; Sam lives upstairs from me. I'm 20—" what, this is … "—and I'm sorry if that made you feel weird—"

Paul: Oh my god!

Dylan: "—and just, filled with all sorts of shame and self-loathing." And I went up and introduced myself to Sam, and this old, lonely man showed me his collection of photographs and his collection of magazines and, like, everything he had been able to find over a lifetime. And … these videos that he had bought from this company, uh, that were the, the, the, the tamest … uh, and you couldn’t even call it pornography. It was, you know, here's a video of a one-legged woman vacuuming her home, fully clothed. Here's a video (chuckles) of, uh, you know, uh, uh, legless woman in a wheelchair describing how she lives her day (Paul laughs). You know, it's like, it can't even be called pornography, and yet it was a huge turn-on and a, a … a ... (unintelligible) vindication, a sense of, you know … And then I got my first computer, with, uh, you know, my 14.4 modem, where you could download a picture that came through slowly.

Paul: Line by line.

Dylan: And, and, and—Yeah, that one's not interesting (chuckles).

Paul: What is the, uh, pay-off, um—obviously arousal, but what, what is it specifically within a thing? Is it how that person's … what it looks like? Is the, is it the touching of, of the area where there's the amputation?

Dylan: All of these things. All of these things. And it's not amputation; it is the, the absence of limbs.

Paul: Yes. So it has nothing to do with the wound or anything?

Dylan: No. The … (stumbles on words) before I met my wife, three was a woman I was madly in love with, who had no feet and one arm. It was a long-distance relationship, uh, and it was extraordinary. The two decent relationships I had with women missing limbs were both with congenital amputees, tha-, which is an erroneous word. Uh, uh … Some people say congenitally limb deficient; I would say congenitally—

Paul: So, born without a leg.

Dylan: Yes.

Paul: Okay.

Dylan: Limbs, in both case … in cases, plural. And that, I think, is because those women are comfortable with who they are, and it doesn’t bother them that this aspect of them is part of what's interesting, and part of what's, uh, arousing. Whereas, certainly traumatic amputees, uh, are dealing with all sorts of issues about their body images. And in many cases, feel less attractive, and if there are people for whom this makes me attractive, then that becomes really unsettling for them. And it starts to feel as though the pleasure I take is in their traumatic, uh, exper—

Paul: But it has nothing to do with that.

Dylan: That's not what it's about. And I wish I could say that it's some noble thing about the, the strength of the overcoming of the odds, and it's not that funky, either.

Paul: Don't get your dick hard!

Dylan: Yeah, right. But it's, it's, uh, visual and it's tactile and it's, um … I … In therapy, I've had thoughts, and, and, and, uh, explorations of the ideas—my, my sister, my older sister is gay—I love her like a brother. Um—

Paul: (Laughs.)

Dylan: And, and she is … and has my whole life, been an ardent feminist, a, a militant feminist. And my father, uh, was very interested in the women's movement and feminism when I was a child. And my mother, in some ways, is the most dominant figure in my household. Now, I was growing up in this conservative town, where … all this stuff outside my family that was coming out, was about machismo and masculinity and, uh, and traditional gender role. I was mocked for having long hair as a child. The, the, the sense of, of gender role, gender norms, was very strong in Schuylerville, but not in my household. And, I suspect … that, the first time I became aware of the existence of people missing limbs … some part of me internalized the idea … that this was a way that I could feel strong and male and protective and supportive and, uh … and, and physically dominant.

Paul: If you were the person missing the limb—

Dylan: No, no—

Paul: No. If, if somebody with you—

Dylan: If somebody else was without her—

Paul: I see.

Dylan: —having to be in any way inferior or weaker or any of the things that my family was telling me, it was shameful to think of women as being.

Paul: Um-hum.

Dylan: Right? So, as soon as I thought of myself as being in any way dominant, that felt wrong.

Paul: I see.

Dylan: But, this was a way in which I could … you know—And there are a lot of other disabilities that turn me on, uh, not to the same extent. But still, they get to me.

Paul: Have, have you ever had anybody, um … shame you for it?

Dylan: Only once … uh, when I was in my 20s … and I found my replacement copy of the comic book. I wanted to know if there were any more issues of this comic book (that was Issue #1). And I called Last gasp Comics in San Francisco. And I said, "I just found a copy of this thing. I've been looking for it for years. Do you know if there are any other issues of it available?" And they said, "No, we only put out the one." And I said, "Do you know if there are any groups of people like me, any other, any other people I could contact?" And the guy on the phone said, "What, you mean like Stump Humpers Anonymous? I don't think so, kid!"

Paul: Wow.

Dylan: And it was so, it felt so vulgar and dismissive and hurtful. Oh, there's one other time that's fairly important that I was shamed for it. My wife and I—there was a time that my wife and I were in therapy with, uh, different therapists. And those therapists were married to each other. And, they suggested that we come in for a joint session. And my wife had decided that she did not want to be involved in any role play, any indulgence of this fantasy, in this fetish. And her therapist was cruel to me—

Paul: Really?

Dylan:—in that session, in ways that shocked and upset me, and messed up my sexual being for years.

Paul: Oh, man! I'm so sorry.

Dylan: Yeah, it was very difficult—

Paul: Do you remember what, uh, what the therapist said?

Dylan: Oh ye-, every word! EVERY WORD (laughs)! Yeah, it was … she ask-, first she asked me about the fetish and where I thought it ca-, and I told her bat my theories. And she looked horrified. And my therapist said nothing, because he was a bad therapist and … might have been napping and mostly didn't want to get into an argument with his wife, um … I think. And I said, "Could you stop looking so horrified as I talk about this, please?" And she goes, "I'm sorry. I didn’t mean to do that. But, you understand that … this is very difficult for your wife, too." And I said, "Yes, I do. And that's why I, why we're here. Because this is difficult for us, and we're try—" And she-, "Well, is there anything else that turns you on … beside that one thing?!" And I said, "Well, yes there are other things that turn me on. Certainly, certain types of lingerie turn me on in some ways, and … uh, high heels and stockings can turn me on." And she—"Well, these are still things other than your wife. These are still not parts of your wife that you're talking about. And you're not … you're … can't you talk about anything that just turns you on about her, can you?! Just for a moment!" And then I just shut down, and I was like, "Okay, I don't wanna be scolded for telling you—"

Paul: Wow, what a terrible therapist—

Dylan: "—the things that—"

Paul: What a TERRIBLE therapist!

Dylan: "This is not—" Yeah, it was an awful session for me. And, uh .. .and it messed me up for a while. It really screwed with me. (Stumbles on words) Everything I was doing, everything that my brain did sexually was wrong.

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan: And my therapist also, for not interceding on my behalf and really … helping me sort through what was going on there. It, was, it was a problematic—

Paul: And I'm sure she was filtering everything through her own shit.

Dylan: Not only through her own shit. But through whatever the conversations were with my wife that I shouldn’t have had any knowledge of, because … yes, my wife is ABSOLUTELY right to be able to say, to be comfortable saying, "I don't want to do that. That is not something I am comfortable with. That is not the thing that gets to me sexually." And … and that's … what she has to say to me, and what she says to her therapist is none of my damn business.

Paul: Um-hum.

Dylan: And … what her therapist was reflecting back at me was really a shaming kind of a—

Paul: The, the, the worst thing a therapist could do—

Dylan: Yeah.

Paul: You know, worse that negligent. It' s abusive

Dylan: Yeah. There were many ways in which both of those people, uh—my therapist and hers were, were deeply problematic in ways that we did not realize until years later.

Paul: One of the … things that I get on my soapbox all the time, uh, about on this, on this podcast, especially when I'm reading the surveys, is trying to hammer home that what turns you on is not a moral decision. It's just like freckles: they're either … they're, they're just there. They just freckles, you know? It just, they're just … you got a freckle fetish (chuckles).

Dylan: I like freckles.

Paul: And, uh … you know, if you're going out and you're, uh, dehumanizing somebody to feed your fetish, that's a different story.

Dylan: Yeah. Um … yeah. And … and part of the shame from my fetish is that it feels as though it's dehumanizing. Even to me, it feels as though, uh … I should be—I—and it's amoral judgment, but I feel as though I should be attracted to the individual and the mind, not the body and not the visuals and not the—and yet, I, I remain a human, um—

Paul: Yeah, there's, there's the animal turn-on and there's the soul turn-on in sex. Maybe one day you want one, one day you want the other. Maybe some days you want neither, or … all your life you only want one of the. Who, who knows?

Dylan: There is no day that I have not wanted either. I, I so love being turned on—

Paul: Yeah.

Dylan:—you know?

Paul: There are so many feminists who fill out the surveys, um, who are so ashamed that, uh, they have fantasies of, of being raped. And, it is so incredibly common, among men, among women. Moral quandary is an aphrodisiac when it comes to, when it comes to fantasy. I, I really believe that. And there's a guy that wrote a whole book about it; a guy named Jack Morin, m-o-r-i-n. He wrote a book called "The Erotic Mind," and it's about that very thing. The hurdles, the ethical hurdles that you, in your fantasy, that you feel, "I'm a bad person for this getting me off," he posits that that is the very thing that charges your thing.

Dylan: I had a wonderful therapist briefly—and I'm currently with a great therapist. But I had a wonderful therapist briefly, and I said, "I wouldn’t mind my fetish. You know, my fetish wouldn't bother me at all, if it didn't come with so much shame." And she said, "If it didn't some with shame, it wouldn't be a fetish. It would be a thing you're sort of into."

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Dylan, thank you very much for being so honest and sharing—

Dylan: Oh, I made all this stuff up (chuckles).

Paul: (Laughs)—so freely, about, uh, about all your, uh, all your stuff—

Dylan: Thank you for allowing me to. I hope it's what you, what you wanted on this podcast, and you weren’t wanting me to be funny more often.

Paul: It, it was great. It was great.

Dylan: It didn’t feel like we were doing the Morning Zoo.

Paul: (Laughs) Quite the opposite. If people want to, uh, know more about you, they can go to dylanbrody.com.

Dylan: They can, and buy all of my CDs and my books at the Emporium of Fine Words and Phrases.

Paul: And, uh, they can follow you on Twitter at …

Dylan: Dylan Brody.

Paul: D-y … d-y-l-a-n, b-r-o-d-y.

Dylan: That is correct. The Russian-Jewish spelling of Brody, and the Dylan Thomas spelling of Dylan.

Paul: Thanks, buddy.

Dylan: No, thank you for having me.

End of Interview

[01:14:58] Many thanks to Dylan. So honest and vulnerable, and I love when people walk through that feeling of fear and revealing a truth about themselves. And, I know it helps other people feel, feel less alone. I know it helps me. Before I take it out with a bunch of surveys, uh, and there's two at the end that are so good. I mean, they're all good, but um … Before I take it out with that, I wanna remind you guys that there are a bunch of different ways you can help this show out, both financially and non-financially. And, if you look at the show notes of the podcast, uh, you'll find a whole list of them, and it means a lot to me. And it helps keep the podcast going, because, um, we are in a bit of a financial crunch lately, and it would, uh, it would really help if you could … if you could contribute. Again, financially or non-, uh, non-financially. And, the other thing I wanna mention, is that the back catalogue is now available, uh … it's Stitcher Premium. It's $4.99 a month, and there's episodes going all the way back to the very first episode, in March of 2011. And, for that $4.99 a month, you also get access to a shitload of other podcast back catalogues. So, it's a really good deal. But just make sure, when you sign up for Stitcher Premium that you, uh, let them know that you are signing up through this podcast. Otherwise, I don't get a dime from them. So … there's that.

[01:16:51] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Fern." And I don’t know if there's ever been an awfulsome moment that's as concise as this one. And, uh, she writes, "Taking a moment from my high-pressure corporate job to send naughty photos from the bathroom, to a 20-year-old drug dealer I slept with in the Dominican Republic who gave me chlamydia (chuckles)." Thank you for that. I wonder if she got chlamydia in the gift shop of the airport. Probably not, cuz I don't imagine that he was … he was there in duty-free. Right now, I could made a booty-free joke, but I'm going to, uh, avoid that, because I don't wanna lose listeners.

[01:17:43] This is a memorable vacation argument filled out by "Alice," and she writes, "We were meant to be leaving for our annual summer road trip to visit my paternal grandparents when all hell broke loose. My dad had been going through a period of underemployment, while my mom was working long, stressful hours to keep the household afloat. Dad decided to make an (offering) to the church and gave all of our savings away. He is devout, and was probably in the midst of a fasting and prayer cycle in order to gain grace and blessings. Selfishly, he had not thought about consequences of his actions. When my mom went to the bank to withdraw funds for our holiday, there was nothing left. She hissed angrily (way scarier than yelling) through foam-covered lips about how there wouldn't even be enough money left to put fuel in the car. She picked up the phone to call his mother. Dad completely lost it and started begging her not to call. She said he deserved it for his mother to know the truth behind why we wouldn’t be able to visit them that summer. He ripped the phone off the wall and smashed it. We did end up going on the holiday, and in later years I found out that my mum had to sneak over to my maternal grandparents to borrow some cash. I dunno know if my father's mum ever did find out about his charitable habit, but what I did learn is that my dad is still scared of his mum even as a middle-aged man." Wow! Wow! What a picture that, that paints.

[01:19:18] This is a shame and secret survey, filled in, filled out by a woman who calls, uh, herself, "I.Am.An.Imposter." And … she is … in her 20s, identifies as, um, bisexual, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, uh, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. She writes, "My experience is one that I have never thought was 'bad enough,' and it felt stupid for being affected by it. I was nine, at a family vacation, as was left with family friends whom I had never met before. My dad told me he was going for a drive with my stepmom and that they would be back. A few hours went by, and they hadn't come back yet, so my dad's friend suggested that I sleep in their room. Since there were two beds and five people, I had to sleep with someone. The mother told me to sleep in the bed with her son, who was 13. I laid down in my shorts and shirt, and she suggested that I put on her shirt to be more comfortable. So I did. She then suggested that I take my shorts off so I would be more comfortable." Wow! Wow! "Sometime during the night, I woke up to her son caressing my privates and was frozen with fear. The only thing I did was move like I was waking up and stopped. Years later, around age 13, I told my mother, as I hadn’t told anyone, and she blamed me for taking my shorts off." Un-fucking-real! Un-fucking-real! "I don't know what more to say, as recounting this is making me nauseous. How can you blame a child for being assaulted?" She is also been physically abused and emotionally abused. And, you know, I just wanna say that … mother that groomed you for her son—I don't even wanna know … Actually, I do wanna know, what the fuck is going on in that family? What kind of secrets and … Holy shit! Holy shit! That could be a documentary. She's been physically and emotionally abused. "Too much to recount. Most notable, my mother grabbing me by the pony tail and hitting my head against the kitchen floor because I was too scared to go into the dark to put the laundry in the dryer." Any positive experiences with abusers? "Yes. Positive experiences have made me feel that the negative feelings towards her are selfish." To which, I wanna say, it's not a mathematical equation that determines the, um, lovability or positivity of a parent. It's about you giving weight to the feelings of the difficult or painful things that you experienced. And, in terms of … how a parent parents, it's … so much more important that they're consistent in their support, protection, and nurturing of you than it is whether there were more great things than , than bad things. Cuz it's not about punishing them; it's about you giving weight to your feelings so you stop punishing yourself. Darkest thoughts: "I have sexual urges about pretty much everyone, even if they are not 'attractive.'" Darkest secrets: "At age 12, my mother's boyfriend's daughter made me eat her out. I did not tell anyone about it until around 21, and still did not tell my mother about it. I think that I liked it, even though I felt bad at that time." And that is really common, is for people to experience physical pleasure, while their soul is experiencing something completely different. And it's probably good that you didn't tell your mom after how she reacted to the first thing that you, you told her. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Many sexual fantasies involving women. I have not had many chances to act with women, and no notable feelings about having those." Have you shared these things with others? "I've shared these experiences and thoughts with my current boyfriend. I selfishly needed a partner that I had no secrets from, and I didn't want to be alone with them anymore." I don't think that's selfish at all; I think that's a part of intimacy. Although some people would say that, uh, there are things that you, um, shouldn't share with your partner, um, specifically, you know, maybe things that you're struggling with, uh, regarding them, uh, to have a, a, a place to at least work it out in your head, uh, if you do choose to share it with, uh, them. And I'm thinking in particular, you know, issues that we go to support groups for,or we share with our therapist. How do you feel after writing these things down? "I honestly feel sick. This is the first time writing it down and sharing it with other people." Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "With those who share my experiences, I would emphasize to them, that if you feel a bad feeling about something, that you are allowed to have that feeling. Your experience of something is YOUR experience and should not be minimized." Thank you for that, and I'm so sorry that you felt sick, uh, writing this down, and ... I and the listeners really appreciate that you walked through that feeling in, in doing that, because it's a big part of the show. And hopefully, that, that will be the … the moment will be a touchstone to you to begin to process what happened to you.

[01:25:40] This is a memorable vacation argument filled out by "Pig Dog," and she writes, "I went on a road trip with some girlfriends. We had a long day, where we got off track by about six hours. When we finally got to a hotel for the night, I blew the fuck up. I yelled, I cried, I went into the bathroom and slammed the door. I slid down the back of it and tried to catch my breath. I heard my girlfriends leave to go outside. After a few minutes, I got myself together and went to leave. Holy shit: the door was jammed, and I was stuck! Nothing can humble you like getting trapped in a hotel bathroom after throwing a massive tantrum. My girlfriends came back and kicked the door down. So much laughter." Love it. LOVE IT! And that, to me … those a-, those are the signposts for healthy relationships, is not whether or not you disagree, but how you come back together after, after that.

[01:26:44] This is a shame and secrets survey filled out by a guy who calls himself, "Rock Fisher." He's straight, identifies as—he identifies as straight and he's in his 40s. He was raised in a slightly dysfunctional, uh, environment. He writes "a little dysfunctional, but very stable." I … would … I'll comment on that later. He was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "I was abused by a male babysitter at age four. I remember a lot about it. He had me get naked and sit on his back. He showed me a Playboy magazine. He had me go down on him and he raped me. Then he gave me a Pepsi Light—" Definitely do not want that to be a, an ad for Pepsi Light. But, I would like to run this by, the ad team, just to make sure it's not … "—and he turned on the Muppet Show for me." Wow. Wow. "I just recently, last year, told my mom and dad about it—" And, by the way, I, I hope I'm not being glib, uh, about what, what happened, uh, to you. Sometimes I … Just, the darkness gets so heavy that the comedian in me has to … break up the tension by … saying something. "My dad was crushed by it, and my mother, who had also been a little sexually inappropriate with me on occasion in the past, wanted details, which I found disturbing. The things that happened to me of a sexual nature as a child, really messed me up sexually as an adult and early teen. Alcohol abuse, lying about insignificant things, sexual shame. I feel very uncomfortable having sex and have trouble having an orgasm unless I am masturbating alone. I link all of my problems sexually with my sexual abuse that I received as a child. It made me very introverted sexually. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 29 years old, with a strange girl I met online. December 1, 1999. It was a very clinical experience. She has ants tattooed on her ass." It could have been worse; it could have been actual ants on her ass—And who gets ANTS tattooed (chuckles) on their ASS?! Unless you have honey tattooed on your butthole, and then it makes sense. Again, I apologize, I hope I am not minimizing what happened to you, because this is … heartbreaking, what happened to you. He's been emotionally abused. "I was emotionally abused by my brother my whole childhood. He was a monster. I was bullied in school, had very few friends. And high school was a social nightmare for me. I started drinking alcohol pretty regularly in 10th grade, and developed an alcohol problem pretty quickly. I drank whenever I could, but made such I never got caught by my mom or dad. I always stayed at a friend's house, or did it in my room after they went to sleep. I learned to keep secrets pretty well by that time. I also attempted suicide twice by the time I was in 11th grade. Both times, I somehow pulled through. One time, I tried by running my Honda scooter in the garage. I fell asleep and was almost successful, but my scooter ran out of gas and I woke up on the garage floor with a bad headache. I've actually attempted suicide about five times in my life. The other four times were drug and alcohol overdose attempts, but each time I pulled through somehow. Nobody ever found out about my attempts. I was ignored so badly at home that nobody noticed. They must have just thought I was sleeping." Oh, man. I just wanna give you a hug, buddy. I CAN'T imagine the amount of pain that you have been in your life. And to be alone … with all of that trauma … Any positive experiences with people who've abused you? "My mom has helped me out a lot in my life, and my brother grew up to actually be a decent human being. I don't hate either of them. The guy who raped me when I was four is a big, fat loser who lived with his parents, and I haven't seen him in years, except for when I looked him up on Facebook. He's a piece of human shit." What are your deepest, darkest thoughts? "I think about suicide from time to time still. I am done trying it, though. I am a husband and father, so I am responsible for a lot of other people. I am a good dad and husband. Everything I do, I do for them." I hope, though, that you take time out and do some stuff for yourself, because one of the … um—and, and not a way that it, it is at the, you know, at the expense of your, your kids. But, you know, it's important for you to recharge your battery and practice some self-care. Because, you know, you've been through so, so much … Darkest secrets: "My deepest secrets are my suicide attempts, I think. And after that, the sexual shit I have done. Sex with a hooker I met on Livelinks once before I was married, and sex chatting online. Ii did a lot of that; not so much anymore. These days, if I jerk off to the internet, it is to porn only." And then that's the, uh, the end of his survey. Thank you for sharing that. And I … I hope that if you haven’t processed this yet with a support group or a mental health professional or a trusted friend, um, that you, that you do start talking bat it, cuz that is a LOT of shit to tamp down.

[01:32:59] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by "Anorexic Ang." Either (pronounces it two different ways). And, uh, she writes, "I just started IOP treatment—" And that stands for intensive outpatient. "—for my eating disorder again. I'll old enough to be the mom for most of the girls in my group. They were talking about the school having a 90s theme—" (chuckles) Nice whistle! Old, Old West Prospector (chuckles). "They were talking about their school having a 90s-themed dance, and—" I was in school in the 90s. "—I was talking about how stupid I feel for be almost 40 and back in treatment. The girls all told me how (inspiring isn't the right word, but it's the only one I could think of) that I was strong enough to admit that I needed help, be honest with my boys about what's going on. They didn't act like millennials do toward older generations. After all that happened, one of the girls was talking about how her mom is letting the bank repossess their house. One of the other younger girls said, "Wait. What do you mean? Like, a priest needs to come in?" I couldn't stop laughing. Oh, to be young again." (Chuckles) A priest actually does come on, on behalf of the bank. And, uh, he blesses, he blesses all the furniture as it's carted out. Almost said like that … like I was Canadian, "as it's carted 'oot'."

[01:34:29] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "My Name Isn't Beck." She identifies as bisexual, is in her 20s, was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened , but I don't know if it counts. My older sister made me do stuff when I was a child. It felt good, but I also knew it was wrong and a secret. Since becoming an older sister, I found myself having dreams about sexually assaulting my younger sister. I would never do that, but these dreams scare me." She's been physically and emotionally abused. "I let partners walk all over me, despite wanting to speak up and fight against them." Any positive experiences with people who've abused you? "I resent my older sister for these things, plus other things she has done to my mother and family. She is mentally unstable and makes it difficult to feel compassionate after all these years." Darkest thoughts: "Dreams about sexually assaulting my 13-year-old sister, despite never, ever doing it. It hurts because I'm studying and working to become a high school teacher, so I feel like a creep or a hypocrite." If we were all judged by our dreams, there wouldn't be anybody to be a warden in the prison that we would all be in. So, stop judging yourself. It's not what you think or feel or dream. It's what you do with it, and you sound like a really, sweet, sensitive soul. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Being controlled and feeling helpless. I feel like I am not a strong woman." The fact that you, filled out this survey and spoke your truth, says the opposite to me. It says that you are a strong woman; that you're not running from what your truth is, and you should be proud of yourself. How do you feel after writing these things down? "Weird and uncomfortable." And, it is, it is a strong person that walks through the feeling weird and feeling uncomfortable, and begins to process it. Because one of the bravest things that you can do—the easiest thing in the world is to just fall into the cycle of unconsciousness, uh, or even repeating it, um … You know, it takes no bravery, and no … insight … to do that. So give yourself some credit. Said the pot to the kettle. Or is it the kettle to the pot? Which can first? Oh, I hate myself.

[01:37:19] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by "Worst Daughter Ever—" What, by the way, where is that competition held every year? It's probably (chuckles), it's probably held at the kid's Thanksgiving table. Or in a paneled basement; I'm not sure which one. She writes, "I will be 25 this year. My mom wants me to move back home after four years of living alone in another city. I told her I can't and don't want to. She's been crying for hours. I told her I wear pants now. She threatened to kill me and going to jail for this. Because I wanna live by myself and wear pants. I don't know if I should cry or laugh at the fact that this is the first time that I stood up for myself against my mom, and this is the result of my first step toward having a 'backbone.' And if it wasn't obvious, my mom is Muslim, and so am I." Again, you know, talking about bravery: Standing up to a parent who has had control over us for our whole life is one of the scariest … things … certainly in our imagination, before we do it. And it's also one of the most liberating and empowering things. And it can sometimes even bring you closer together with that parent. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter what that parent's reaction is. What matters is that you speak your truth and start to protect yourself.

[01:38:49] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Crypted," and she identifies as bisexual. She's in her 20s and she was raised in a totally chaotic environment. She was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "My other brother told me on my fifth birthday that I was adopted and asked me if I knew what fucking was. I said no, so he showed me a hard-core porn tape he stole from our grandparents ' video store. He would masturbate me with white cleaning gloves on a told me to moan. Later on, he forces me to fellate him or watch him masturbate himself. At the age of 11, he started to have sex with me until I was 14 and refused to ever visit them again. Years later, when I confronted him about this, he hugged me, cried, and said, 'I had no girlfriend at that time.' I gladly would have accepted any other reason than this bullshit." That seems like a really common thing that people think is a good apology, is to say why you did something. And, as scary as it is to not qualify an apology, it feels better to the person you're apologizing to if you don't qualify it. That's just my, my two cents. (Pauses) She's also been physically abused and emotionally abused. "Whenever my adoptive parents made me go to my grandparents' house on the weekends, my brother would beat me up and humiliate me in every way possible. He put stones in socks and beat me with it. He would lock me in a pitch-black room in their cellar, while he taunted me from the other side of the door and then leave me there for the night. He would shove spider in my mouth and hold it shut until I ate them." Jesus! "When I was about eight, he made me smoke weed in front of his 20-something-year-old friends, and told them in great detail how I would enjoy fingering my butt, while his stoner friends laughed at me. He pulled two teeth of mine with a pair of pliers. My adoptive parents were and still are very emotionally abusive. From an early age on, they convinced me I was different, sick, and as they say, 'retarded.' Any opinion of mine was and still is considered idiotic and invalid. I was their outlet for their anger issues, and everything was my fault." Wow! And then this moment was one of the reasons why I wanted to read this, because it is such an example of how complicated human beings are. Any positive experiences with the people who abused you? "My brother would get beat up with a rolled-up newspaper a lot. After that, he usually would cuddle up to me, cry, and tell me that I was everything he had. Sadly, I enjoyed this because I loved him as my brother, and these were the only moments he was ever kind to me." Wow. (Pauses) The … the … complexity of human … behavior and feelings and relationships … never ceases to blow my mind. Darkest thoughts: "One time, my adoptive parents and me visited my grandparents and my brother. I was in another room, overhearing the adults sharing stories, while eating cake at the dining table. I heard my grandfather go, 'And then I walk into his room and what do I see? He was on top of her.' Everyone laughed. My mother laughed the loudest. That was so humiliating and hurtful that for years, I would imagine stabbing the grin off my grandfather's face." Darkest secrets: "I wish worse things had happened to me. Somehow, I feel my past is not bad enough to rid me of the shame of being such a failure." This is one of the … the … most horrifying … surveys I've read. And … That's what your brain is doing, is it's, it's minimizing it. But, let me tell you, every single person who is listening to me read this just wants to give you a hug and protect you. And … I really hope that … you can find a way to begin protecting yourself, because … this is so … painful … to read. And they sound like such sick, sick, toxic people.

[01:44:10] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a … bi-gender person who refers to themself as "My Catchphrase is 'WHAT?'" They are … Sexual preference: "I'm mostly attracted to women. But being bi-gender and having genuine romantic feelings for one guy has messed up any chance at me labeling myself." And it's so not important for people to label themselves, so, uh … Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't have that question there, but, um, I leave it there because, I guess I'm curious … to know. They’re in their 20s, raised in a totally chaotic environment. They were the victim of sexual abused and never reported it. "Not sure of it counts, but it feels like it, I guess. My mother gave my no sexual security when she went off the rails. She'd walked around in her underwear and talk about her sex life when I was a goddamn 11-year-old! Into high school, she'd try to set me up with guys that were way too old for me. I later learned that she fucked teachers in high school, but I have no clue as to why she thought I'd be like that, too. Gross." They've been physically and emotionally abused. "I got spanked as a kid by my mom, and it taught me nothing except that mistakes are unacceptable. She never even told me what I did wrong, so it was probably just her taking out her anger on me. Wow, what a bitch. My father made me feel like I was never good enough. I'd come home happy. I got straight As in class, but then he'd ask me why they weren’t A+'s." Holy fuck! " Things got better when he gave less of a shit about the family. My mom was a whole 'nother beast though. I'd grown out of spankings, so instead she'd scream at me for most of the nonsensical shit. I saw her wail at my sister when her teachers reported that she was being neglected—which we were—so I learned to keep my mouth shut. My counselor in high school was shocked to learn about all the abuse and neglect after my mom abandoned me to live across the country. I couldn't tell her before because I knew CPS wasn't gonna do anything except make mom mad at us." Man, I wish there was some other way … It just seems like such a catch-22 for kids that are caught in that place where … they're trapped and they're being abused, but they don't … you know, if there's that "what if I say something, but it's not enough for something to be done," then it's worse. Any positive experiences with people who've abused you? "My dad's been a huge support in my hobbies, especially when it comes to computers. He's one of the few older people I know that isn't completely against technology." Deepest, darkest thought? "Since I was a kid, I've had random intrusive thoughts about hurting people. It doesn't really phase me know, but it frightened me as a child." Darkest secrets: "I think I'm still in love with my best friend. He broke it off a year ago, and we went back to where we were before. I thought I was over him, but lately I've been getting the same pining feeling I had in the year before we started dating. I want someone else to crush on, but I don't have many other close friends." Sexual fantasies more powerful to you: "It's only recently I've thought about this, and I'm glad I have. Honestly, all I know is that I'm a bottom, due to (1) being lazy (chuckles), and (2) I'm really insecure as to how well I could treat a lady." Thank you for that. Have you shared these things with others? "I share most things with my friends, and I'm so glad they understand me so well." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I feel okay. I'm sick, though, so it's comparative." Comments to make the podcast better: "I love you show and I was wondering if you had any comic artists or illustrators in general on the podcast." And we did. We had—and I'm blanking on his name. And it was about two years ago. But if you look through, it's probably on Stitcher Premium now. But you can still probably Google it and, and find something. Or , um, use the search box on our web site. So the audio file of it won't be accessible, but you should be able to read the show notes of, of that. God, why am I forgetting his name? Cuz I'm a hundred years old!

[01:48:53] And, uh, finally these last two surveys. Or is this the last one? Yes, this is the last survey. This is filled out by … It's a happy moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Eisbaer," And she writes, "I had been secretly struggling with depression and anxiety my entire life. It finally got so bad, it started to affect my physical health as well, in the form of a mysterious auto-immune disease. It affected my sleep, which one, only made the depression even worse—" I think there may be a typo there. "I made a split from my family except my mother, which lifted me so much. Then, after misunderstanding between my mother and I, she said she never wanted to see me again. After processing this big fight, another weight was lifted. I started to focus on my own health and found a naturopath. We worked on getting all of my hormones leveled, which helped so much. With each step, I was taking more and more of the depression and anxiety lifted from me. I got back into yoga. I found a teacher whose focus was on breathing called pranayama. It's about using the breath to move the energy around your body. The poses are slow, so the whole class is a beautiful and calm moving meditation. She invited her students to practice in the park. The first time was magical. We walked down a long, winding path of trees and into an open meadow. We practiced in a grove of trees with an opening to the sky in the middle. As the sun shone on my skin, the birds were chirping, the trees swaying slightly in the breeze. I was in sheer bliss. I felt like I could just float. Just then, a car alarm from someone in the park started. Instead of being annoyed at this, which was my previous knee-jerk reaction, I laughed at the imperfections of life. I don't think I would have remembered the moment of bliss for as long as I have, and probably always will, if it hadn't been for the horn ruining it, but then making me laugh. This was all he culmination of years of working on my whole health, that the mental part of my health is also healing as a result. Mushrooms and lotus flowers grow out of shit and mud; why can't I?" Thank you for that. You guys are the best. Your surveys just … blow me away. Blow me away! And, um, if you're out there and you're feeling stuck, just PLEASE remember, PLEEEEEASE remember, PLEEEEEEEEEEASE remember … Now I'm starting to annoy myself. Just remember, that no matter what you're feeling, you are not alone. But if we don't start sharing with someone and opening up, we'll never get that feeling of being a part of something bigger than ourselves. And, to me, that's where the healing really takes place. And then, the developing tools to deal with the feelings when they come up. And, um … I'm so glad that I did that, despite me believing it wouldn't work, because then I get to be here and I get to read your beautiful surveys. And look at that, how it came full circle. Isn't that nice! I miss Herbert's butthole (chuckles). For those of you who don't know what I'm referencing, I'm not gonna explain it! I'll let you wonder, "What does that MEAN?" Anyway, you're not alone, and thanks for listening.

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