In 2005, Matt Furie—then in his early 20s—created a comic book calledBoys Club in which a cartoon frog named Pepe acted out the dumb, laid-back stoner culture of post-college bros. Pepe, along with a wolf, a dancing bear, and a sarcastic dog, would play harmless pranks on one another. Furie, who was living in San Francisco at the time after attending Ohio Wesleyan University, would print the comic out at Kinkos and mostly distribute it to his small group of friends.

Today, the Anti-Defamation League officially recognized Furie's cartoon frog as a hate symbol, one that has been hijacked by the alt-right and Internet trolls, championing white nationalism and a cartoon-frog-looking hero, Donald Trump.

It's thrown Furie into what he calls an idiotic joke, where his innocent frog is now listed alongside the swastika and the burning cross and other "symbols most frequently used by a variety of white supremacist groups and movements," the ADL explains.

But that is not in any way what Furie—a professional artist who makes comic and children's books—originally intended.

"It started off quite modestly," Furie told me while driving from where he lives now in LA as a working artist to one of his shows at a gallery in San Francisco. "The comic itself represents that post-college zone of living by yourself with a bunch of dudes and pulling pranks on one another. The vibe of the comic is very chill and mundane and absurd."

A Student poses for a pictures next to a banner outside the hall where the first presidential debate at Hofstra University for the first presidential debate. Getty

In one of the four issues of Boys Club, which Furie made between 2010 and 2012, Pepe, as the artist describes, "was taking a leak with his pants all the way down and one of his friends walks in. Then later he's playing video games and one of his buddies is like 'I heard you pull your pants all the way down to go pee.' And Pepe simply says, 'Feels good, man.'"

That image, of Pepe saying "Feels good, man," for whatever reason, became one of the Internet's most ubiquitous memes and soon turned into something much darker.

Were you involved in that initial online conversation on 4chan and Reddit where Pepe first became popular?

Oh dude, not at all. I don't really spend time on the Internet. I'll maybe just check my email or go on Facebook or something. I had nothing to do with the whole meme appropriation of Pepe. I just looked at it with amusement. It started off on 4chan as an inside joke, then it became more mainstream and the memes were being shared by Katy Perry or whomever. Then the 4chan guys started flooding the Internet with weird Pepe memes to kind of reclaim him as their own. And this is just what I've gleamed from the Internet. I had nothing to do with this at all.

So it becomes this meme and now obviously, it's become something completely horrible. When did you start seeing it used by the alt-right and the Trump campaign.

I woke up one morning to a flood of emails and calls from media trying to interview me. I had never heard of the alt-right or any of that stuff—even white nationalism—I don't know about that shit. I'm learning about that stuff with you, about what the hell is going on. And unfortunately I think it's giving this fringe group more attention. They're just these scattered nihilistic guys, I don't even know what their intention is.

"They're just these scattered nihilistic guys, I don't even know what their intention is."

What do you think of this group that has co-opted your creation?

Obviously it's not in line with any of my beliefs. I've seen outrageous stuff involving Pepe online before, but I try not to dwell on it. I blame Trump for all of this, because he kind of looks like this smug Pepe meme. Now it's just this runaway train. But the people who are driving this train are these anonymous Internet trolls who don't stand for anything except for nihilism and getting a rise out of whatever racist or sexist or disgusting thing they can do. It's just an idiotic joke. They kind of seem like this group that tried to intellectualize white power, and they've appropriated Pepe for that. It sucks, but I can't control it more than anyone can control frogs on the Internet.

What was your reaction to the news today that the Anti-Defamation League has listed it as a hate symbol?

I think it's unfortunate. It's not going to do anything other than give this fringe racist group more attention than they need. I don't think you can control these manifestations of a cartoon frog online. The whole thing just seems like a cosmic joke from my perspective. I'm kind of just watching it all unravel. I'm trying not to take it too seriously, because once this election is over I'm hoping it will all be water under the bridge. Then it will be onto the next thing.

It's such a strange situation to think about creating something so innocently and have it become a symbol for hate.

The unfortunate thing for me is that my name is linked up with this. Memes in general aren't really attributed to a creator, it's just some random video of a cat falling into a toilet. It's just weird that my name is associated with it. I just try to take it lightly.

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So do you still want credit for creating it?

I just take it day-by-day. It's still a new thing. It's due to Internet culture. Anyone who just Googles 'internet troll' will see that it's these masturbatory anime dudes who post dumb shit online all day. In some ways I think it's amusing, and in other ways I'm annoyed by it. I try to take it lightly. It's a cartoon frog for godsakes.

Obviously the Internet does whatever it wants, but have you tried to stop it or control it?

Pepe the Frog is copyrighted by me. But, I'm not sure if copyright laws have caught up to the wild west of the Internet. People can post Mickey Mouse on a blog and they're not going to get a cease and desist from Disney. I'm just in this strange advertising hell right now where even negative press still draws attention to the fact that I created the comic books. I'm just trying to spin it back to it just being a cartoon frog.

It's not like you're going to sue a nameless troll.

Exactly. And even if I did try to stop it, it's like whack-a-mole. I would have to figure out who the first anonymous dude who turned Pepe into Hitler and be like, "Hey don't do that." And that's just going to make him post more. It's a losing battle of one guy vs. the Internet saying, "Hey stop that!' It's an impossible task. I know that I can't control it. So I just try to see the bigger picture of it being a sociological phenomenon.

So, it seems pretty obvious from our conversation, but are you a Trump or Hillary supporter?

I'm voting for Hillary for sure. I was a big fan of Bernie, but that fizzled out, so I'm all Hillary 2016.

You should offer to make a new cartoon for Hillary.

I know. Someone sent me a clip of Hillary addressing Pepe and the affiliation with white nationalists, and someone in the crowd yelled 'Pepe!' So that for me is just very strange that on either side—Trump or Clinton—had to sit down at a meeting and decide what are we going to do with this Pepe thing? It's funny that it's become part of the national debate. It's really weird.

Matt Miller Culture Editor Matt is the Culture Editor at Esquire where he covers music, movies, books, and TV—with an emphasis on all things Star Wars, Marvel, and Game of Thrones.

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