michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: President Donald Trump is acquitted of both articles of impeachment. Just one senator crossed party lines to vote to convict him. A conversation with Mitt Romney about that decision. It’s Thursday, February 6. Mark Leibovich, tell me about these conversations that you’ve been having with Senator Mitt Romney.

mark leibovich

Well, Mitt Romney has always fascinated me as kind of a wild card in his political life as a moderate governor of Massachusetts, as a, quote, “severely conservative” presidential candidate in 2012. Then, as a critic of Donald Trump when Donald Trump took over the party. Then, as a potential Donald Trump cabinet member when he talked to him about being secretary of state in 2016. Then, as a Senate candidate, someone who I wouldn’t say embraced Donald Trump, but someone who certainly didn’t push him away. And then as a senator, someone who has been fairly unshy at times about defying Donald Trump, being critical of him.

michael barbaro

Right. Somebody who is seen as ideologically malleable. Someone who’s seen as inconsistent.

mark leibovich

Correct. And in this impeachment proceeding, he has been the ultimate wild card. No one knew what he was going to do really. People had ideas back and forth. But you never know what you’re going to get with Mitt Romney. So I had been asking his office — and I’m certainly not the only reporter who had been asking — whether I could hang around with him a little bit, whether I could actually go through this process with him. Which I figured was a bit of a long shot because he’s been in such demand. And to my surprise last week, right as we were leading up to the big vote on witnesses, Mitt Romney agreed to sit down with me.

michael barbaro

Wow.

mark leibovich Thank you again. [INAUDIBLE]

mark leibovich

We went up to his hideaway office, which was like a kind of —

michael barbaro

Hideaway office?

mark leibovich

It’s like a remote office. Every senator gets one.

mark leibovich I mean, here’s the question. Have you every taken a nap in here? mitt romney I have not.

mark leibovich

And Mitt Romney’s was filled with M&M’s.

mark leibovich Oh my god, peanut M&M’s.

mark leibovich

This was like a little break in the proceedings. So we didn’t have a lot of time.

mark leibovich I feel your body language. So I’m going to be real quick here.

mark leibovich

And I was amazed at how open he was about the kinds of things he was thinking about.

mark leibovich Hello. mitt romney Hi. mark leibovich It’s good to see you. mitt romney Good to see you. mark leibovich So just sitting there, you’ve sat there, now, what, a week and a half? mitt romney No, it’s been a couple of months. [LAUGHS] mark leibovich Well, I know it feels like a a couple of months. mitt romney Yes, probably. What did we say, nine days? Is that it? aide Yeah. mark leibovich Does the experience of sitting in the chamber, listening to this day in and day out, intensify the burden at all? Does it make it seem weightier? Does it make it seem less weighty? What’s it been like for you? mitt romney I think it was most weighty having the chief justice come in the first time. And I think there was a sense of how important this is and how historic it is. We have to do what we feel is right in the case. But I think we also have to think more broadly as to what are the implications nationally and what are the implications for the institution of the Senate. mark leibovich What about the presidency? mitt romney And the presidency, both. I mean, that’s — mark leibovich I mean, put aside impeachment. What about just the nature of right and wrong? Like what a chief executive of this country should do. I mean, isn’t that on trial to some degree? mitt romney Well, I think if there were a president that really was going to be removed under the crime or misdemeanor standard, he or she would have done something wrong. By definition that would — [interposing voices] mark leibovich Yes, one would hope. mitt romney But by and large, most matters of right and wrong associated with the president are going to be determined by the electorate in the upcoming election. Impeachment is not to judge right and wrong alone. It is to judge right and wrong in the context of, has there been a high crime and misdemeanor?

mark leibovich

And one of the last things he brought up to me was a sense of obligation he felt to the United States Constitution.

mitt romney This is — it’s a constitutional issue. I feel a sense of deep responsibility to abide by the Constitution and to determine absent that pulls from the right and pulls from the left. What is the right thing to do? What does the Constitution demand?

mark leibovich

So it was very clear that this was weighing on him.

[chatter]

mark leibovich

And I got sort of ushered out of his office. And he had to go back to the floor to continue the trial.

mark leibovich O.K., wait. Do we go this way or this way? mitt romney I’ll show you. speaker We’ll go —

mark leibovich

We’re walking out. He goes back to the floor. I took a right turn in a hallway. And there was Amy Klobuchar, who was back in Washington for about 36 hours to do her impeachment stuff, taking a break from her presidential campaign. And I said, Senator, can I ask you a few questions about Mitt Romney?

mark leibovich Mitt Romney — have you thought of this role here just as kind of a fellow center — not centrist, but someone who is a bit of a wild card in all this? amy klobuchar Um, uh, uh —

mark leibovich

And the name Mitt Romney sort of stopped her in her tracks a little bit.

amy klobuchar Hold on. I’m sorry. Yes, that’s a good question. So I hope he plays that leadership role that I think John McCain would have played if he was here. I thought like every hour about if Senator McCain was here.

mark leibovich

And she used this as a prompt to talk about John McCain. The very important role that John McCain, the maverick, played in the United States Senate, as someone who could recruit other potentially dissident Republicans to his side and create a counterforce within the prevailing force that is the Republican Party in the Senate.

michael barbaro

So she’s raising the specter that Mitt Romney could be a John McCain in this moment, i.e., could buck the party and perhaps even take other Republicans with him in siding with Democrats in impeachment.

mark leibovich

Correct. She saw him as someone who was genuinely agonizing, someone who could be a leader and someone that no one really had a grip on at this point.

mark leibovich Has he demonstrated at all that he could have that like capability to actually play a McCain-like — amy klobuchar Well, at least he’s been willing to tell the truth here about the need to have the witness, which I’ve appreciated. This is his moment to shine and hopefully he can bring some people with him. mark leibovich Thank you.

mark leibovich

So after my conversation with Amy Klobuchar, I left the Hill. I said to Romney’s office, I said, I’d love to keep in touch with him. We did not talk about his ultimate decision. He didn’t want to talk about it yet. He made that pretty clear. But also, I wanted to get a window into his decision-making process. And we had about five days until this was all going to come to a head. So to my surprise and delight, they said, come on back on Wednesday morning.

michael barbaro

Wow, the day of —

mark leibovich

The day of the decision. The day of the final vote.

mark leibovich Senator — mitt romney Long time no see. mark leibovich I know.

michael barbaro

O.K. So on Wednesday morning, what happens? What do you do?

mark leibovich

Wednesday morning, 10:30. I went into Mitt Romney’s office.

mark leibovich Let’s do this. We have a table, table there. mitt romney We have a table there.

mark leibovich

I felt myself getting quite nervous, which is interesting because I almost — you always sort of know what you’re going to get in an interview. I just didn’t know how this was going to go. This was a real jump ball. I mean —

michael barbaro

You called it a wild card.

mark leibovich

It was a wild card. You could call it whatever you want. But I just didn’t know how this was going to go. He looked exactly like he always looks, which is fresh as a daisy. He hadn’t been sleeping. But you couldn’t tell. He looked ready to go. He didn’t look like he was in a mood for any kind of small talk. I wasn’t either.

mark leibovich Anyway, so anyone care about what you have to say today? mitt romney Probably. mark leibovich Probably. All right, let’s get right to it. Do you have — do you know how you’re going to vote? mitt romney Yeah, yeah, I’m going to vote yes on the first article. No on the second.

mark leibovich

He said that he would vote yes to convict the president on charges of abuse of power. And he would vote no on the second impeachment article, which is obstruction of Congress.

mitt romney There’s no question the president fought providing documents and witnesses. But he did so through the use of the law. And the House, in my view, should have gone to the courts to get that resolved. By not going to the courts, they — mark leibovich They forfeited. mitt romney — I don’t know how they make the case.

mark leibovich

And as soon as he started talking, I could see the emotion in his face. I could hear him, not choke up, but certainly there was a strain in his voice that I had not heard before.

mitt romney On the first article, I think the case was made. And I believe that attempting to corrupt an election to maintain power is about as an egregious an assault on the Constitution as can be made. And for that reason, it is a high crime and misdemeanor. And I have no choice under the oath I took but to express that conclusion.

mark leibovich

He said, basically, I think he’d gone back and forth.

mitt romney There’s an old Protestant hymn that we sing in our church called “Do what is right, let the consequence follow.” I’m sure I’m doing the right thing. I don’t know that I can weigh the consequence at this stage. But it’s going to be substantial. mark leibovich Yeah I mean, this is interesting. Wow, I mean — mitt romney But you know I’m a very religious person. And when you swear an oath before God to apply impartial justice, that’s what I believe I have to do. And by the way, I believe other senators do the same thing. I’m not the only one voting my conscience. But not voting my conscience, in order for me to have a better political and personal benefit, would subject my own conscience to its censure. So I just — I don’t have a choice there. This for me is fundamental to my oath to God and fundamental to how our country must work, which is that people have to be seen as honest in fulfilling that oath that they take. mark leibovich When did you make this decision? mitt romney I tried to keep from forming a final decision as I listened to both sides — mark leibovich As a juror. mitt romney — and I went all the way — as a juror. And as I was going, of course, sometimes I’d be swayed one way. Sometimes I’d be swayed the other. I reached my conclusion really after the last day of questions and answers. mark leibovich So that would have been Friday — or Thursday? mitt romney Yeah, Thursday. But I can tell you that throughout this entire period, there’s not been a morning I’ve gotten up after 4 a.m. Just obviously thinking about how important this, with the consequences. But then also analyzing, going back and looking at the testimony, reading the briefs of the two sides, going back through Federalist Papers. And then applying logic to it. mark leibovich What was it like for you to sit in — or stand, in some cases — through what was a very tribal gathering last night at the State of the Union. And I was watching you quite a bit because I was up in the gallery. It was quite a speech. And you knew what you — the current you were going to be swimming up against in 24 hours. What was that like? mitt romney I think people have a very hard time understanding how you just don’t vote with the team, and how you can make a decision of this significance, unless you’re just doing it with the team. And it’s like, well, then think back to a jury you may have been on. And ask did you just go with whether it was a male or a female, or a black or a white or Hispanic, or non-Hispanic? Or did you try and apply a partial justice? Did you take your oath seriously? And you take your oath seriously. I agree with most of the things the president has done. The policies he put in with regards to the economy are very close to the policies I campaigned on four years before. I agree with those things. The fact the economy is doing as well as it is in part because of those policies. So he’s going to take a bow for those policies, I — I’m with him. So I’m with the pre — and by the way, I think he’s going to get re-elected. I think if Bernie or Elizabeth is the nominee on the Democratic side, he’ll get elected in a landslide. I will still vote for the policies I agree with. I’ll stand and applaud when he says things that are right. But then he did one thing we know of that was a very seriously wrong thing. And not to call it grievously wrong would be to violate my oath, violate my conscience, subject me to the censure of history. mark leibovich What kind of consequences do you think you’ll endure for this? mitt romney Unimaginable. I don’t know what they’ll be. There’s some I know. I know there will be consequence. And I just have to recognize that. And do what you think is right. And —

mark leibovich

What was interesting to me — and this is one of those things that doesn’t pick up so much on tape — but you see his facial expressions. I mean, Mitt Romney is a very smooth character in his own ways. His face got red. He had a bit of dread in his eyes. It was as if he knew that a chandelier was about to drop on his head.

michael barbaro

Wow.

mitt romney The reason I wanted witnesses — and that was the area that there was a greatest discussion within our caucus, was we don’t get witnesses. The reason I wanted to hear from John Bolton is that I hoped beyond measure that he would say something that would provide reasonable doubt so I wouldn’t have to vote to convict. mark leibovich So you were looking for reasons not to vote for — mitt romney Look, my personal and political and team affiliation made me very much not want to have to convict. I mean, I want to be with my colleagues in the Senate. I don’t want to be the skunk at the garden party. I don’t want to have the disdain of Republicans across the country. I was at the grocery store this weekend, and a guy went by me and said “traitor.” mark leibovich Where was this? In Utah? mitt romney No, it was in Florida. I was down at one of Ann’s competitions. Another person yelled from their cars as I was taking my groceries out of the car. Yelled from his car, “Stick with the team!” And so I recognized this is going to be a whole different level. But —

michael barbaro

Why do you think Mitt Romney did this interview with you? I mean, he could have decided to show up and vote to convict the president. Why sit down with The New York Times and talk about all the agony and explain himself?

mark leibovich

Well, I mean, one thing I’ve always been interested in with Mitt Romney is that he has always been, not in a self-absorbed way, but he’s always been very aware of his own political narrative. He has been aware of how he was viewed, maybe as a political opportunist. Him maybe doing things out of expediency rather than principle. And I think ultimately, one of the things that this Senate chapter has done for him and his career is it has enabled him to maybe rewrite the ending. Maybe recast himself as someone who did feel as if he was doing the right thing at the expense of whatever the expedient decision at the moment would have been.

mark leibovich — any number of issues. Does any of that weigh on you? You’re in your 70s now. This is probably your last job. Maybe this is an important enough issue that I could really take a stand, and I mean, and just do the right thing. I mean, does this — do you ever think about these decisions in light of other decisions you have made when you had more politically to lose? mitt romney I haven’t given the full analysis to my whole political history. But I will with time, particularly I’m sure in retirement. My guess is that I was influenced in some cases by political benefit. And I regret that. And probably not to the extent to which my opponents tried to characterize it. But looking back, there’s an item or two where I said I wish I had said that differently or taken a different position rather. I don’t mean to make it just seem like just a couple of words. No, take the position that I — and as is often the case, I have found in business, in particular, but also in politics, that when something is in your personal best interest, the ability of the mind to rationalize that that’s the right thing is really quite extraordinary. And I’m talking about myself. And I’ve seen it in others. I’ve seen it in myself. mark leibovich Especially in politics generally. mitt romney And by the way, and you could swear on a Bible that you are doing exactly what is right. But and that’s because our mind has the capacity to do that. In this case, I worked very hard to prevent my personal feelings and my personal desire from influencing a decision that was going to be an important decision and the most difficult decision I’d ever make.

mark leibovich

I think history is important to Mitt Romney. It’s important to him for a lot of reasons. I mean, part of it is his ego. I mean, people in the U.S. Senate want to think that everything they do is actually relevant to history. But I think when you’re Mitt Romney — when you’ve lived a lot of history, when you’ve been the nominee of a Republican Party, when you’ve run twice for president and lost, when you’ve held a number of offices — things like how you make a decision that will mark you forever are important in the historical context. And you could argue, you could be a cynic and say, oh, well, they’re just full of themselves, they care about how history will view them. Who does that? But I actually think it was important and a very kind of formative part of the process of coming to this decision for Mitt Romney.

michael barbaro

Was to just talk about it.

mark leibovich

Was just to talk about it.

mark leibovich Right, you cannot send that off [INAUDIBLE]. Thank you. mitt romney Thanks. mark leibovich Appreciate it. O.K., all done.

michael barbaro

As you were leaving the office, he’s just told you what he’s going to do. What are you thinking?

mark leibovich

Well, I mean, part of it is just pure, straight-ahead, opportunistic reporter think, which is God, I hope they don’t call me and say he changed his mind. Because, you know, he’s going to go on the floor in a few hours and shock the world. I mean, not to put too fine a point on it. But this is a very momentous decision that would be a major headline at the end of a process that people had assumed was over, right? I mean, it wasn’t a major twist. But it was certainly a twist in something that would be remembered here.

michael barbaro

But beyond your own journalistic —

mark leibovich

Beyond my own —

michael barbaro

— self-absorption.

mark leibovich

— self-absorption. My thought was, I hope he knows what he is in for.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. So Mark, what happens after your interview with Romney on Wednesday morning?

mark leibovich

O.K. So Wednesday morning becomes Wednesday afternoon. It was probably about 12:20 p.m. in Washington. I walked out of the office. I headed back to the New York Times, Washington bureau. And I knew he was scheduled to speak at 2 o’clock. And he took the mic.

archived recording (mitt romney) Thank you, Mr. President. The Constitution is at the foundation of our Republic’s success.

mark leibovich

And of course, you want to actually be watching this because, one, you don’t know if what you just learned is going to hold, whether he changed his mind or not.

archived recording (mitt romney) The allegations made in the articles of impeachment are very serious.

mark leibovich

But the other thing is, how does this look and feel when he’s actually delivering it to the world? And one of things I was struck by is that he looked really nervous. He looked a lot more nervous on the floor than he did with me.

archived recording (mitt romney) I take an oath before God as enormously consequential.

mark leibovich

And he got emotional at a couple of points.

archived recording (mitt romney) I knew from the outset that being tasked with judging the president, the leader of my own party, would be the most difficult decision I have ever faced. I was not wrong. The people will judge us for how well and faithfully we fulfill our duty.

mark leibovich

And it took him a while to get through this.

michael barbaro

Yeah, I was watching it. He was flipping the pages —

mark leibovich

Absolutely, yeah.

michael barbaro

— and speaking with all sorts of pregnant pauses.

archived recording (mitt romney) The grave question the Constitution tasked senators to answer is whether the president committed an act so extreme and egregious that it rises to the level of a high crime and misdemeanor. Yes, he did.

mark leibovich

Absolutely, yeah. And I don’t think he was doing that for any kind of dramatic reason. I think it was just a genuinely hard speech to get through. And at the end of the speech, Mitt Romney invoked his children and his grandchildren.

archived recording (mitt romney) With my vote, I will tell my children and their children that I did my duty to the best of my ability.

mark leibovich

This is something he does fairly regularly. But it also, you know he’s playing for keeps here.

archived recording (mitt romney) I will only be one name among many, no more no less, to future generations of Americans who look at the record of this trial. We are all footnotes at best in the annals of history. But in the most powerful nation on earth, the nation conceived in liberty and justice, that distinction is enough for any citizen.

mark leibovich

But I think maybe there’s some false modesty at work here too. I mean, he’s not a footnote. He is a dissenting voice. And the Republican Party has not had many of those at all through this process.

mitt romney Thank you, Mr. President. I yield the floor.

mark leibovich

And then he walked off into history.

michael barbaro

So, Mark, after Romney’s speech, the full Senate formally reconvenes.

archived recording (john roberts) The majority leader is recognized. archived recording (mitch mcconnell) Mr. Chief Justice, the Senate is not ready to vote on the articles of impeachment.

michael barbaro

And becomes a court of impeachment.

archived recording (john roberts) Each senator, when his or her name is called, will stand in his or her place and vote “guilty” or “not guilty,” as required by rule 23 of the Senate rules on impeachment.

michael barbaro

So what happens?

mark leibovich

Chief Justice John Roberts gives final instructions to the jury, or the U.S. Senate. The formal articles of impeachment are read aloud.

archived recording (john roberts) The question is on the first article of impeachment. Senators, how say you? Is the respondent Donald John Trump guilty or not guilty?

mark leibovich

And he calls a vote.

archived recording (john roberts) A roll call vote is required. The clerk will call the roll. archived recording (clerk) Mr. Alexander. archived recording (lamar alexander) Not guilty. archived recording (clerk) Mr. Alexander, not guilty. Miss Baldwin. archived recording (tammy baldwin) Guilty. archived recording (clerk) Miss Baldwin, guilty.

mark leibovich

On the first article of impeachment, presidential abuse of power —

archived recording (clerk) Mr. Romney. archived recording (mitt romney) Guilty. archived recording Mr. Romney, guilty.

mark leibovich

Mitt Romney votes guilty. He votes to convict.

archived recording (john roberts) Two-thirds of the senators present not having pronounced him guilty. The Senate ajudges that the respondent, Donald John Trump, president of the United States, is not guilty as charged in the first article of impeachment.

mark leibovich

On the first article of impeachment, abuse of presidential power, the president was acquitted by a final count of 52 noes, 48 yeses.

archived recording (john roberts) Two-thirds of the senators present not having pronounced him guilty. The Senate ajudges that respondent Donald John Trump, president of the United States, is not guilty as charged in the second article of impeachment.

mark leibovich

On the second article of impeachment, which is obstruction of Congress, Mitt Romney voted to acquit the president. The president was acquitted by 53 noes and 47 yeses.

archived recording (john roberts) Without objection, the motion is agreed to. The Senate sitting as a court of impeachment stands adjourned. Sine die.

mark leibovich

And in the end, Mitt Romney was the only U.S. senator, and the first senator in U.S. history, to vote to convict a president of his own party of an impeachable offense.

michael barbaro

You could have hinted at this, Mark. But there is something really intriguing about choosing this moment for Mitt Romney to take a stand. His career — I covered it very closely, covered 2012 campaign — is littered with examples of moments where it seemed he wanted to be on both sides of an issue. Or he evolved in ways that felt opportunistic. Yet, at this moment, he becomes a senator of conscience. And he’s not malleable. But it’s a moment where his vote to convict the president on one of two counts has no impact whatsoever on the process. And when you think back to people like John McCain, as Senator Amy Klobuchar did, he stood for conscience at moments that had huge consequence.

mark leibovich

The decisive vote in the Affordable Care Act.

michael barbaro

Was the deciding vote on Affordable Care Act, for example. In this case, Romney is the lone dissenting voice in a case that he can have no influence over. So what do you make of that?

mark leibovich

Here’s why that’s important. One, Donald Trump has craved some kind of way to say this is just a partisan witch hunt. Every Republican voted to support me. This denies him that opportunity. The other part in the context of Mitt Romney’s career is, again, as you mentioned, this is not something Mitt Romney has traditionally done. Now you could argue the counter-factual. If he was up for re-election in Utah next year, would he vote differently? If he was thinking about running for president and going for the Republican nomination in 2020, would he vote differently? I think at this point, he has lived a long career. He has had a long, long life. And he would say at this point that he is answering to different forces.

michael barbaro

Regardless of whether it changes any of the dynamics of this Congress and the Republican Party and this president?

mark leibovich

Yeah, I don’t think it will change any dynamics at all, except that Mitt Romney’s life is going to get a lot more uncomfortable for reasons that I think he can handle, given how he weighed this decision.

michael barbaro

Well to that point, what has been the reaction for Romney in the hours since he went on the floor, gave that speech and then cast a vote to convict the president?

mark leibovich

I would say quite unpleasant. Everything from the president of the United States’s son Don Jr. calling for his expulsion from the Senate. His own niece Romney McDaniel, the chair of the Republican National Committee, publicly rebuking him basically on Twitter.

michael barbaro

His own niece?

mark leibovich

His own niece, yes, calls for recall elections in Utah. Things like that. Now this is a window into the kinds of things that are in store for someone who dissents from President Trump.

michael barbaro

And maybe what his colleagues in the Senate deliberately avoided by not —

mark leibovich

Absolutely.

michael barbaro

— doing what he did.

mark leibovich

It is a faith that they have voted to avoid. I mean, it’s obviously — there are a lot of things at work when you decide to make a vote like this. But the noise is an absolutely undeniable part of the experience of voting against the interests of the person who leads your party. Donald Trump.

michael barbaro

Thank you, Mark.

mark leibovich

Thank you, Michael.

michael barbaro

On Tuesday night, President Trump himself began attacking Mitt Romney on Twitter, promoting a video that calls Romney slippery and stealthy, and without any evidence, claims that Romney is, quote, “a secret asset of the Democratic Party.” We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, Democratic officials in Iowa released more results from Monday’s caucuses, which left the position of the candidates unchanged and the final outcome of the vote uncertain. With 97 percent of the results in, Pete Buttigieg maintained a narrow lead over Bernie Sanders that verged on a tie. Meanwhile, in New Hampshire —

archived recording (joe biden) Donald Trump is desperate to pin the socialist label of socialist, socialist, socialist on our party. We can’t let him do that. But if Senator Sanders is a nominee for the party, every Democrat will have to carry the label Senator Sanders has chosen for himself.

michael barbaro

Former Vice President Joe Biden, who stands at a distant fourth place in Iowa, attacked both Sanders and Buttigieg as flawed candidates for the Democratic nomination.

archived recording (joe biden) I have great respect for Mayor Pete and his service of this nation. But I do believe it’s a risk, to be just straight up with you, for this party to nominate someone who’s never held a office higher than mayor of a town of 100,000 people in Indiana. I do believe it’s a risk.

michael barbaro