Transcript

Fr. Tom Soroka: Welcome to the relaunch of Ancient Faith Today. This is Fr. Tom Soroka, and I’m so glad that you’re with us this evening. This is a live call-in show, and we’re looking forward to hearing from you. We’ll be taking your calls in a bit at 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. John will be answering your calls, so please be sure to turn the show volume off before you come on air. You can also join us in the chatroom that is now open by going to ancientfaith.com/live. Another way to connect to us is to go to facebook.com/ancientfaithtoday and place your question in the thread for tonight’s show. Finally, you can also send us an email at aft@ancientfaith.com. So let’s get started.

If you were a previous listener to this program, you know that Ancient Faith Today was originally launched in April of 2012, and was hosted by the very capable Kevin Allen. The show ran for four years as Kevin welcomed clergy, theologians, professors, writers, newsmakers, and thinkers to discuss issues that are important to Orthodox Christians, on topics ranging from prayer to politics. Kevin’s warm bass voice, his thorough understanding of the subjects, and insightful questions made for captivating listening. His recorded work endures even to this day, and I would encourage each of you to search the podcast archives for those shows. Though Kevin fell asleep in the Lord in 2018, due to the effects of ALS, Lou Gehrig’s disease, his legacy goes before him as a pioneering supporter of Orthodoxy’s English-language new media leader, Ancient Faith Radio.

So tonight, as we turn the page on a new chapter of Ancient Faith Today, we dedicate this new show to Kevin’s memory, and we take on a challenging subject that was very important to him, and, frankly, to all of us: Orthodox unity. At the outset, we should acknowledge that all canonical Orthodox Christians around the world have a de facto unity of faith. We share the same doctrines, we recognize the same feasts and saints, we unite around the same chalice—as an acknowledgment that we are the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of Christ. However, at many times in Church history, there have been disagreements between many churches, some more serious and enduring than others. Through all of this, St. Paul urges us, as he did to the Church in Ephesus, “to keep the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace.”

In our day, in the world of the Orthodox Church, challenges have arisen which strain the united governance of the Orthodox Church. There exist serious tensions between, for instance, the patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow over the question of Orthodox Christians in Ukraine. Still other Orthodox churches are in disagreement about various territorial disputes. Of course, we continue to have overlapping Orthodox jurisdictions in North and South America, Western Europe, Australia, the Far East, and other areas. On a positive note, to address the latter issue, in 2008, all the Orthodox churches initiated what are called regional assemblies of bishops to work toward “the swift healing of every canonical anomaly that has arisen from historical circumstances, with a view to overcoming every possible influence that is foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.”

So the current state of Orthodox unity, the challenges we face, and the outlook for the future is the subject of tonight’s show. How do we work together? How do we move forward? I’m very happy to have two men with us who have broad, on-the-ground experience in this area to guide us in this conversation. Our guests are, first. Dr. Charles Ajalat. Dr. Ajalat graduated with a B.A. from Harvard, received his J.D. from the University of California at Berkeley. He was a law clerk to Chief Justice Donald Wright of the California Supreme Court. He has represented a sitting president of the United States, many of the world’s largest corporations, and he’s been involved in a number of historic cases in the U.S. Supreme Court. He’s taught law at Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, and USC. In the Church, Charles has served as the chancellor of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese. He’s the founder and chairman of boards of directors of SCOBA, humanitarian aid agencies established under SCOBA such as the IOCC. He’s the founder and [former] chair of FOCUS North America, a former member of [the board of] St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and he was granted an honorary doctorate in canon law. Dr. Charles Ajalat, welcome to the program.

Dr. Charles Ajalat: Thank you. Thank you, Father. I would like to just say one comment about your introduction on Kevin Allen. I’ve had many conversations with Kevin Allen, a great friend, on this subject of Orthodox unity. He was very passionate about it, as you know, and I thank you and Ancient Faith Ministries, because this is an excellent way to honor the memory of a great man.

Fr. Tom: Well, we’re happy to have you with us. Thank you. And also with us is Protodeacon Peter Danilchick. He spent 33 years as an executive with ExxonMobil, where he served in an international capacity. He holds a Master’s degree in electrical engineering and applied mathematics from Syracuse University. And in the Church he serves currently at St. Mary’s Orthodox Church in Falls Church, Virginia (OCA). He’s served churches in Texas, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Germany, Hong Kong, in various jurisdictions. He’s a trustee emeritus of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary. He’s on the board of directors of FOCUS North America, a board vice-chair for the Orthodox Christian Leadership Initiative, and is a member of the secretariat of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States, a former member of the OCA-Metropolitan Council, and he was also awarded a doctor of humane letters by St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Seminary, and he is the author of Thy Will Be Done: Strategic Leadership Planning and Management for Christians, published by St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press. Pdn. Peter, welcome to Ancient Faith Today.

Pdn. Peter Danilchick: Thank you very much, Fr. Tom. I’d also like to echo Charles’s sentiments about Kevin Allen—may his memory be eternal—and to you, Fr. Tom, thank you so much, and congratulations for taking on this amazing role in the Church.

Fr. Tom: I’m happy that you both agreed to join us for this first inaugural show. So let’s get started. This is a big topic. It’s a little bit of a difficult topic, and I can’t imagine two men who are more well-versed to help us through this. I want to ask the first question, and we’re going to start with Pdn. Peter. Pdn. Peter, why is Orthodox unity important? Why should our listeners even care about it?

Pdn. Peter: I think, Fr. Tom, it’s really very, very simple. I mean, it goes back to the Gospel. Our Lord wants us to be united. He wants us to be one. If you are a Christian, you must want unity. It’s not optional whatsoever. Jesus prayed [for] his disciples that we would be one, the famous selection from the Gospel of St. John 17: “Holy Father, keep them in thy name, what thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.” Now, we’ve heard this prayer so many times, and whenever anybody talks about unity, they always refer to this prayer. We’re subject sometimes to hear it so many times that we really don’t realize its full import.

Jesus had already in this great time of the last time he was with his disciples; he commanded us to love one another. Unity is beyond love. It demands a lot more. That’s why Jesus had to pray to his Father; he didn’t just command us to be one: he prayed to his Father for the power that we might become one. Unity demands sacrifice. It demands sacrifice of our own egotism to reach common ground. Paul said to the Corinthians: we need to have a common mind and a common judgment. He prayed four times to the Father that we should be one. That criterion of oneness is not just an earthly “let’s get along together, let’s be nice to each other, let’s respect each other,” but it’s a unity as Jesus, as the Son of God, and the Father are one, “that they may be one, as the Father and I are one.”

Are we there yet in unity? Yes, we have unity in faith and sacraments and so on, but it’s not that complete unity in mind and judgment that has to be our goal. At home, with our family, in our neighborhood, with our fellow human beings, and in our Church, parish to patriarch, there can be no exception.

Fr. Tom: Thank you, Pdn. Peter. I do want to clarify before we turn to Dr. Ajalat: we are speaking here about unity between Orthodox Christians, that is, Chalcedonian Orthodox Christians. The subject of whether we’re speaking about Oriental Orthodox Christians is not the subject of this particular show. We’re just talking about the practical unity between Orthodox Christians and the anomalies that we currently face. So, Dr. Ajalat, I’ll turn to you and ask you the same question: Why is unity important between Orthodox Christians, and why should our people care?

Dr. Ajalat: It’s a question, Fr. Tom, that I’ve asked myself repeatedly over the last 40 years as I’ve worked in this area. I would clarify that we’re talking about, as I understand it, primarily the reason for administrative unity. Clearly we ought to be working together, and I hope we develop those ideas a lot in this program, but the only reason for administrative unity as I can see it, as for the Church itself, is for the salvation of souls. We can’t think that it’s a panacea for all the problems confronting the Orthodox Church, but it would help the witness of Orthodoxy to America, and the lack of Orthodox administrative unity is an obstacle to that witness.

But, having said that, we need to understand, always, that the greatest witness to the world are our faithful: the clergy and the hierarchs and the laity. If all of the faithful and the local churches lived the faith, starting with us, so that when the Americans ask, “Where’s all this love coming from?” that’s the true witness. This witness was there in the early Church, as you know, where parishioners risked their lives from diseases to help other persons that they didn’t even know. This witness, it seems to me, is starting to increasingly happen now in North America.

Fr. Tom: Thank you. Absolutely. So let’s get a little bit more specific here. What are the most practical, broad issues, let’s say, you had talked about administrative unity, Orthodox governance? What are the broad issues in Orthodox governance today that create challenges for us moving forward and having that unity that we seek? Pdn. Peter, do you want to talk about that question?

Pdn. Peter: Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. Again, Charles is right, that most of our conversations have been about administrative unity, and again I’ve worked a long time in the corporate world—I’ve been 45 years a deacon as well—and sometimes when we press things on the surface, we don’t look below the surface; we don’t look below to the foundations. In any kind of corporate environment, we might talk about how management’s working together or not working together, but there are fundamental values in any kind of organization, whether it’s a corporation or a diocese or a jurisdiction or something like that, and if those core values aren’t adhered to, you’re going to be in big trouble, whatever organizational plan you put into place. You’re going to fall apart over time if people don’t have the same attitudes and the same kind of values.

We don’t have time to go into it now, but I’d encourage all of us to go and read St. Paul’s epistles to the Corinthians in which—they gave him a lot of trouble in terms of disunity—and he reminded them that certain values, they had certain gifts, they were called to be saints. They were given grace and knowledge by God, and he called upon them to cease their divisions and refuse to be guided by the ways of the world. So we may have administrative unity, but if we’re still guided by the ways of the world in the Church, I think we’re going to remain in some difficulty.

I kind of thought about: What are the ways of the world which negatively impact Church unity in terms of governance? I’ll tell you for a fact, these are the same that exist in corporations and the same that can exist in our own Church governance. I would submit that they are what Fr. Tom Hopko liked to call the various Ps: power, prestige, prerogatives, and pride. Any of these is absolute death to unity, and their opposites are sacrifice and humility. Those qualities don’t come easy, and they demand a continuous mutual repentance and forgiveness. So whatever types of organizational change that we have, if they’re not built upon the basis of sacrifice, humility, they’re not going to be successful.

Dr. Ajalat: I agree with you, Pdn. Peter, that the motivations are really crucial here, but to answer Fr. Tom’s question about practical broad issues, I would add that the problems of Orthodox governance worldwide need to be addressed directly, and they haven’t been. Dispute-resolution mechanisms need to be created. Maybe we’ll talk about that a little later if time permits, but there are multiple situations of having new churches by one jurisdiction in what had been recognized as the geographical territory of another, and there’s no judicial resolution mechanisms available. I say that not as a lawyer, but we have to have a way to resolve disputes, and we really don’t.

Pdn. Peter: If I may comment on that, Charles, I completely agree with you on that. We need to have dispute resolution mechanisms, but I think before we even have that, we need to have the desire to pick up the phone and talk to each other. We don’t need to write letters, we don’t need to go publicly and give interviews—pick up the phone, talk to one another, catch the next plane to go wherever you have to go, go to a monastery and spend some time and quiet for a few days, talking with each other.

Dr. Ajalat: I was going to make the same point about communication.

Fr. Tom: Well, speaking of the phones, let’s encourage our listeners to call in at 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. I want to just take another question here, if you don’t mind, and that is: the relationship, especially for those of us in North America, Australia, where most of us are governed by mother churches in another land, whether it be Russia or Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Syria, wherever that is—how much of what happens in the various mother churches overseas affects us at home? And how does that affect our efforts towards unity? Because we know that there are different ways of seeing what those churches might call the diaspora, that is, those who are in a foreign land. So, Dr. Ajalat, I’ll go to you. What does that affect in terms of things that are happening over in a foreign land; how does that affect us here at home?

Dr. Ajalat: I think, Fr. Tom, that the mother church problems internationally, among themselves, and with their “daughter churches,” where that term is applicable, it overlays and complicates the domestic situation. However, there was no progress in recent years at the American hierarchical level with regard to formal administrative unity, even before the current international situation deteriorated. Now, various mother churches exercise various levels of control over their daughters, and with most, as I think Pdn. Peter and I chatted about before, an independent American Orthodox Church is not a priority, even for the salvation of souls. They are comfortable in focusing on their own situations, problems, and opportunities, and think that the churches here can present Orthodoxy and reach the salvation of others even while being non-united, and I see it as the opposite, that it is an obstacle.

Fr. Tom: Absolutely.

Pdn. Peter: I would offer one other example on that, Fr. Tom, and you mentioned already that one of the objectives that the agreed mother churches at Chambésy, Switzerland, in 2008-2009 was to create a plan for achieving a canonical organization in a number of different regions, one of them being, obviously, the United States of America: one bishop in one city; Church unity. We worked really hard on that, and I can talk about that a little later on if you desire, but basically our progress toward the plan, where we were all working quite well together, became stalled about five years ago due to the objections of certain mother churches. They expressed, in what I think was quite natural for them to do so, their spiritual responsibility for the people of their own ethnic background here. However, that meant to them that they needed to retain control. They didn’t say that they were going to cease cooperating with other jurisdictions, but that any idea of reorganizing dioceses to re-institute this requirement of one bishop in one city, with no overlapping territories, was not going to happen. So our effort ran to a rather abrupt halt.

Now, how do these actions really affect those of us who are really looking for this sort of change? Their problems overseas really become our problems. That’s nothing new. I don’t know of any family in which one member’s problems don’t impact everyone else. Someone once told me when my wife and I began to have children, “You’re only as happy as your unhappiest child.” St. Paul, again in Corinthians: “If one member suffers, all suffer.” But one thing I really know: good parents don’t make their children suffer, and if they do, they really feel bad about it. In the world, especially in marriages, we have antagonism, we have separations, we have divorce, but really our Church—and this is really what I feel myself, and again I’ll offer a disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not for any other organization or churches that I’m associated with—that the Church really needs to go back to basics, and we need to be above all of those issues.

Fr. Tom: Thank you for that. We’re going to be going to a break very soon, but I wanted to ask one quick question that comes out of the chatroom. It’s by Nicholas. It’s a long statement, so I’m going to summarize it, but basically what he says is that there is the possibility of creating a new ecclesiological model, because the situation in the United States and other places is so unique in the history of the Church. It would be primarily based, let’s say, on ethnicity, or political lines. Do you think that the new reality that we are in, in the United States, would necessitate a new way of looking at the ecclesiological model of the last 2,000 years that seems to work in Europe, seems to work in the Middle East, but may not work in a place like the United States? Is something like that every looked at in your work? I’ll ask either one of you.

Dr. Ajalat: I think we need to have one synod, ultimately, a synod based on love and working together. And looking at the problems here in America, not being as concerned, certainly having love for the mother churches and supporting them in every way, but I think the model of the Church overall is correct. I would like to add, as Pdn. Peter did, it’s very important, we both are speaking as individuals, and not on behalf of any church or organization.

Pdn. Peter: On that one, Fr. Tom, we did have a plan for canonical administrative unity. It was given to the Assembly of Bishops back in 2014, and it involved basically one bishop in one city. Obviously, since many of our bishops are clustered in areas like San Francisco, Chicago, and in New York, it would require some of them to move. A large number of them said that, yeah, we’re willing to move and go to different places. And we also tried to take into account the needs, special needs, for ethnic peoples, and we had a system in place to be able to do that; we called it ethnic vicariates, where senior clergy would be responsible for ensuring that the needs of special populations were met. That seemed to be acceptable to a lot of people, but as I mentioned at the last minute it was turned down because of objections from some of the overseas churches.

Fr. Tom: Understood. Okay, we are going to take a break. We’re at the bottom of the hour. We are here with Dr. Charles Ajalat, Pdn. Peter Danilchick, and we’re talking about Orthodox unity, and we’re talking about the issues and the answers that we’re going through today. We look forward to your calls: 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. We’ll be back in a few minutes.

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Fr. Tom: Welcome back. This is Ancient Faith Today. We’re talking about Orthodox unity, a very important subject. 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. We have a caller, Brian from Cincinnati Brian, go ahead; you’re on the air.

Brian: Thank you, Fr. Tom. How are you?

Fr. Tom: Great. How are you?

Brian: I’m doing well, thank you. So this is a very interesting subject. I appreciate it and I’ve looked forward to this, because I’m on a journey toward Orthodoxy, thank God. It’s been a few years and I’m getting, I hope, close at this point. I’ve been paying some attention to the controversies and what we would call the disunities, and there’s plenty of opinions on Facebook, by the way, from all sides. But what I’m wondering is: Are any of the issues theological or dogmatic, or are they mostly jurisdictional and political disputes? Are there any serious challenges to what the faith is and should be? I hope that makes sense.

Dr. Ajalat: There are; it depends on whose position you look at on the issues, but much of the Church, for example, in Ukraine, feels that the Ecumenical Patriarch accepted the people without sufficient work who do not have an apostolic succession. I’m assuming you would consider that a doctrinal issue.

Brian: Sure.

Dr. Ajalat: I think it’s fair to say a lot of the issues are not, well, again, it depends whether you see unity of the Church and that kind of thing as doctrinal or not. We’re going to discuss that a little bit more later, so it may be that you’ll have some further information of our views, personal views.

Brian: I’d appreciate that.

Fr. Tom: We could also say here, Brian, that in the United States, in terms of the canonical jurisdictions in America, there are no doctrinal disputes between them. There may be some different practices in terms of the way that people are received into the Church and so forth, but in terms of any doctrinal disputes, I am not aware of any. Pdn. Peter, anything to add on that?



Pdn. Peter: No, I think what you just said is correct. Of course, the ultimate aim of doctrine is to clearly set forth the relationship between ourselves and God and to allow ourselves to come into union with God and union with one another. So if our beliefs are not followed by our actions, well, I think that’s a real issue.

Fr. Tom: Okay. Brian, does that answer your question?

Brian: It does. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Fr. Tom: All right. Thanks for calling.

Dr. Ajalat: Thank you, Brian.

Fr. Tom: Okay, here’s another question, gentlemen. This question goes to the issue of the relationship between the hierarchs and their clergy and their flocks. As we know, the bishops are the heads of their churches, and they set the pace for where and when efforts for unity proceed. But we may have situations where bishops say, for instance, about unity, “My people don’t want this,” or maybe the people say, “My bishop doesn’t want this.” So how can we come to a common understanding, and how can parishes and people encourage and work toward Orthodox unity with one another? Dr. Ajalat?

Dr. Ajalat: Well, I think it’s very important, and I’d like to see as much of the rest of the program focus on this, if we can, the difficulties of the procedural and leadership problems at the hierarchical level, whether in the United States or internationally, does not mean that the efforts at the lay and clergy levels, hopefully with the cooperation and perhaps even leadership of the hierarchs, should not continue, increase, and intensify. I think the common understanding of this simply comes if the parishes approach their bishop for his blessing to encourage the work toward Orthodox unity in the local areas and specific, non-threatening projects.

Fr. Tom: Excellent. Pdn. Peter, anything to add to that?

Pdn. Peter: Well, again, I think you’re exactly right in that statement and in that wish and in that hope, but our parishes really need to be examples of unity to our bishops. Bishops need to see from the parishes people who love one another, people who are welcoming to others, who will bring others into the Church with both joy and enthusiasm. As well, the bishop may say, “You want to do something, well, you didn’t really need my blessing to do it. You could have gone and done it yourself.” I think parishes need to extend themselves practically to people outside the parishes. Do we know people in neighboring parishes. Do we know what they’re doing? Do we know what their issues are? Do we know what their needs are? Do they need further work in education or in youth work or in evangelism or in technology? A lot of the older churches need help in technology; we have lots of young people who can do that. But to extend yourself, to go and visit those churches, maybe to have joint meetings of parish councils.

We have a lot of work that’s being done in clergy brotherhoods across the US. That’s a major force for change, but now I think the laity have to be involved in that as well. Those vehicles for unity, namely the brotherhoods, can spill over that unity to every parish. Then I think the last thing, or the most important one after that, is to speak frankly, in an open way, in a loving way, with our bishops. I’d love for the bishops to come to the parishes when they come on their normal archpastoral visits, to ask the people there, “What are you doing for unity? Tell me what you’re doing. I want to help, but I need to know what you need from me.”

But on the other hand, I’d paraphrase John F. Kennedy’s famous slogan: “Ask not what your bishops can do for you; ask what you can do for your bishop.” Maybe our bishops need a line of volunteers waiting for him outside his office and his diocesan chancery, saying, “You know, Your Grace, Your Eminence, we want to help. Tell us what we can do to help you.” Everyone’s got a job to do here, and if we do it without our personal criticism, which we love to make of other people, to take that negative energy of complaining and turn it into positive energy and action. We need to be leaven that leavens the whole lump, and we can work together—clergy, laity, bishops—to bring about the unity that we must have.

Fr. Tom: I’m glad you mentioned that, because I was going to ask that as a follow-up. Do you think that people could simply approach their bishops and say, “Let’s have a conversation about this. Let’s talk about it,” because sometimes when the bishop comes to the parish, he’s up there, we’re back there, we don’t want to say anything, we don’t want to cause any trouble or be controversial, and it’s like both of you said at the beginning, that we have to have people come together. So in this particular case: speaking to the bishop, actually asking about these things I think is great. Dr. Ajalat, you wanted to say?

Dr. Ajalat: I just wanted to correct my dear friend that everyone says John Kennedy said, “Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country,” but that actually is rooted in Khalil Gibran, as I recall. But other than that, Protodeacon and I are in full agreement. [Laughter]

Pdn. Peter: This is the value of a Harvard education, I can say that. [Laughter] If I could just say something about conversations with bishops… As I said, I’ve been a deacon for 45 years in many different countries and many different jurisdictions, and with my work with the Assembly of Bishops, I have the great good fortune of knowing quite a number of them. A bishop’s life is not an easy one. He’s beset from dusk to dawn and dawn to dusk with all kinds of problems and all kinds of issues. He needs a break sometimes. What I’ve counseled them, some of them, is to, one Sunday a month, just go unannounced to a parish, without the usual hoopla and the young ladies throwing flowers at their feet as they come into the church and the whole place is jammed and so on—everybody wants to make a good show for the bishop—but to actually see the way things really are, and to make time to talk with people afterwards.

I know that my own bishop, Archbishop Nathaniel of the Romanian Episcopate, makes it a point that when he’s at the meal afterwards, that he basically has a little bit of a talk show there, but basically everybody else there talking to him and asking him questions and then him responding as a real father. That’s what I think we need to do. I really think we need to make friends with our bishops. They are our fathers in Christ. They are the ones who are our shepherds; they are our overseers, but they’re also our kindly advisors, and we need to reestablish that fatherly relationship. There’s nothing wrong with it. Sometimes people want to be the equals of bishops, but, frankly, they really have a hard job to do, and we need to go there and we need to help them.

Dr. Ajalat: I think if we have credibility with them, if they see that we don’t have an agenda, if they see that we care about the Church with all our hearts, that you can develop those relationships that Pdn. Peter speaks of.

Fr. Tom: Absolutely. 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. We’re waiting for your call. We’ve got some open lines. We’d love to hear from you on the topic of Orthodox unity. Maybe you’re working with some other parishes or with pan-Orthodox organizations. We’d like to hear about your experiences. How has it helped you understand other jurisdictions in this country?

Speaking of that topic, gentlemen, I want to turn to these pan-Orthodox organizations which you both have had tremendous, tremendous influence, and we are so grateful for that. Tremendous work has been done in the area of pan-Orthodox cooperation, in the unity of charity in the United States, with IOCC and FOCUS North America, missions across the world with OCMC, and other outstanding efforts, even like Ancient Faith Radio. So my question to both of you is: What are some of the other ways that lay persons and clergy on the ground, in the parishes, can promote cooperation and unity between the various jurisdictions and Orthodox churches in their respective areas? Either one of you, if you’d like to take that.

Dr. Ajalat: I think there are at least two procedural routes. One is that the parishioners from different jurisdictions at the local level can get the support and involvement regarding the national agencies. That can bring them together, and they can use those vehicles to bring in especially the non-Orthodox. I mean, the work that’s being done by IOCC and FOCUS in so many things is work that others would like to support even if they aren’t Orthodox.

Secondly, the second route, which I really, really would like to see, is that parishioners should create new pan-Orthodox vehicles, both locally and nationally. Don’t just be satisfied with the existing nature of things. For example, two women and a priest approached me recently, and they revitalized Orthodox Christians for Life, and they may even think about having a partnership with a non-Orthodox existing adoption agency, which would really help a lot of our young people who want to adopt. Or an example of a new pan-Orthodox vehicle nationwide is the new Orthodox Christian Leadership Initiative. It’s having its upcoming fourth conference this September, and it’s amazing the impact that this initiative can have on people. The bonding has been incredible, and the fruits that have been produced in a very short time between faithful of goodwill is also incredible. I’m grateful that Pdn. Peter has been such a strong supporter and vice-chairman of this effort.

And then, a number of the things that he mentioned were also on my list. We should have joint vespers in the local level. We should go to each other’s feast day service as much as we can, not just the clergy, but also the lay people. We should go to their events and other joint services as often as we can. We should get the parish councils together. We should get the archdiocesan councils together. The concept behind the first conference of bishops at Antiochian Village, which I was very involved in, was not rebellion against the mother churches, but for our hierarchs across jurisdictions to get to know each other, and it was a positive historical event that cannot be retracted. But now we need to expand the outreach between local churches of each jurisdiction to each other with each other, if we are really to witness to America the Orthodox faith. I’m talking about clergy associations; I’m talking about clergy-lay associations. Again, talk to the pastors and the bishops. The Church needs your help.

Fr. Tom: Great. Pdn. Peter, anything to add there?

Pdn. Peter: Yeah, I would certainly endorse everything that Charles has just mentioned. I would also say that, if you really want to get people to be united, to be one, there’s no better way to have them do that than to serve others in the spirit of the service of Jesus Christ. There are very many people who are out there in the world who need our help, whom we see sometimes only on the evening news or who have taken the wrong turn down a city street into an unfamiliar neighborhood. As you mentioned, I’m on the board of FOCUS North America. It really is dedicated to providing opportunities for parishes and individuals also to serve the poor, either by volunteering, say, in food and clothing distributions, or directly donating funds to help others buy their gifts. But wouldn’t it be wonderful for two or three different parishes, neighboring parishes of different jurisdiction, to combine their efforts on an informal basis—doesn’t have to be anything grandiose or formal; you don’t always have to have an elected president and a secretary—just start volunteering through FOCUS or some other local charity; if there isn’t a FOCUS near there, pick some other charity. Go work outside, shoulder-to-shoulder, pack bags of groceries, cooking, serving hot meals to the indigent, talking with downcast and dispirited people with words of honesty, kindness, and concern. Wouldn’t that bring everyone closer together? Wouldn’t you feel closer to Jesus as the servant, the One who washes feet? And wouldn’t you feel closer to each other as being his disciples? I think that would be an absolutely wonderful thing to do, and it’s being done in many cities around this blessed country. Why not try it?

Fr. Tom: Absolutely. Thanks for that encouragement.

I want to get a little bit more specific here. We are coming to the top of the hour, so we want to begin to wrap up, but there are, obviously, I think, on a lot of our minds some important issues here. Let’s bring it back home, and let’s talk about the history in very brief strokes of the pan-Orthodox relations in the United States. What is the history of our inter-Orthodox relations here, and, more specifically, what is the current status of the Assembly of Bishops? Pdn. Peter, I want to start with you on that one. Where are we with the Assembly of Bishops, and what’s happening?

Pdn. Peter: I’m going to actually turn this over for a little pre-history to Charles, and I’ll take it from there.

Fr. Tom: Okay, great!

Pdn. Peter: Charles is the one who had been so instrumental in SCOBA and the Ligonier, and that’s prior to the Assembly of Bishops in 2008. Charles, go! [Laughter]

Fr. Tom: Tell us about it.

Dr. Ajalat: I would say that the history in this country, except for lay participation in the creation of national ministries, has not produced the kind of fruit it should, and the same, although Pdn. Peter can give us some good things about the Assembly, but the same seems to be true with the Assembly of Bishops reaching down to the local level, where it must reach. If the foundation for unity talks is not different from the rhetoric and emotion of the past, and unless there’s concrete action, with everyone working together equally, Orthodox unity at the hierarchical level is not hopeful, I have to be honest.

But the good news is that with such concrete action together, either by the hierarchs’ instigation or with their silent blessings or encouragement, progress over time is possible and will be very fruitful in fulfilling the mission of the Church. We need the active involvement of the laity, and so many of us sit back, and we can’t do that: the Church needs us.

Pdn. Peter: Yeah, Charles, I can’t agree more with you on that. That’s absolutely 100% correct. I’ve been on the secretariat for the Assembly of Bishops for the past ten years, and I’ve seen a lot of changes. I’ve seen a lot of ups; I’ve seen a lot of downs. On the positive side, many of the bishops before the Assembly of Bishops started and our annual meetings took place, they’d never ever met one another. Now they had the chance to speak with, eat with, to take Communion with one another. That was a major, major benefit of that. As well, there was an increased closeness or intimacy or involvement between the agencies of the Assembly of Bishops, the associations such as IOCC, OCMC, Orthodox Prison Ministry, and so on; they were each given an episcopal liaison to work with them. The agencies also presented their work to the Assembly general meetings, and, again, that’s communicating more effectively their programs and needs.

I want to highlight a couple of committees here. The youth committee, headed by Bishop Thomas of the Antiochian Archdiocese, brought together heads of all the Orthodox youth organizations and jurisdictional youth representatives. That’s been the most active committee in the Assembly. Metropolitan Joseph had headed the committee for pastoral practice, and they compiled a major document, describing as you mentioned already, Fr. Tom, some of the quite different pastoral approaches taken by the various jurisdictions. It’s necessary to do that kind of work. We have to do our homework. Where are we the same? You know there’s a lot that’s the same, but there are some differences which mean some things to certain of the individuals, and we need to identify those and we need to discuss it. Again, I already talked a bit about the committee for canonical regional planning, headed by Metropolitan Nicolae of the Romanian Archdiocese, which developed a plan to reorganize the Orthodox in the USA on a canonical basis. That went along very well until, as you know, we had some objections. So there have been some attention turned now to how we might formalize the local parish cooperation in cooperative associations of parishes, but as the time for the Council increasingly drew near and then actually took place, we haven’t been able to get much traction on that.

But what I really want to say in closing on that is that those of us who have been there from the beginning, for the past ten years, we’ve seen lots of ups and downs, but we are still striving to adhere to the counsel of St. Paul at the end of Ephesians that says, “Put on the whole armor of God, and, having done all, stand.” St. Teresa of Calcutta said, “Jesus did not command me to be successful; he commanded me to be faithful.” Since that time we have a new Assembly chairman in Archbishop Elpidophoros, and we have a general meeting of all the canonical bishops coming up in Washington, D.C., at the beginning of this coming May 2020. We’ll see what happens then. In the meantime, we’re going to stand, we’re going to be faithful, and we’re going to be praying for unity, and we ask everyone else to pray with us.

Fr. Tom: So that will be the first meeting of all the bishops with Archbishop Elpidophoros of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, correct?

Pdn. Peter: That is correct.

Fr. Tom: Okay. So I want to ask one last question, and I want to direct this to Dr. Ajalat because we were very encouraged when we read the news that there was a very quiet mediation that was led by His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese. He brought together, I believe, Charles, through your auspices, Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church and Archbishop Elpidophoros [of] Constantinople. I know, Charles, you can’t necessarily reveal everything that happened in the meeting, but can you tell us a little bit of how that came about? We’re very thankful that this very hopeful sign of this meeting existed. Just tell us, are there any fruits from that meeting?

Dr. Ajalat: Well, let me give you this as a summary. With Metr. Joseph’s blessing, I met with both hierarchs, one by extensive correspondence and phone calls, and the other in person a couple of times, and said it doesn’t make any sense that the two patriarchates have not communicated with each other for over a year over Ukraine. They were both open to that, thank God, and one even instigated it, in a sense, and I think the meeting was fruitful. But subsequently to the meeting, where they were to go further with things, due to the influence of governments, secular governments, and the strategy of trying to get churches to take sides, progress was stalled.

Now finally the patriarch of Jerusalem has called for a conference of primates in February, which the Holy Spirit could well use to produce fruits, but some churches may not attend, believing that to attend such a conference, not called by Constantinople, would be against the interests of Constantinople. Yet Constantinople has made it clear that it will not call such a conference over the crisis in Ukraine. So I believe we should encourage all the faithful to pray for some or even all of the primates by name, and for their synods, and pray fervently for the unity of the Church and especially for this meeting, so that the words of our Lord, as Fr. Pdn. Peter often reminds us, may be fulfilled: “that they all may be one, as thou, Father, are in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us.” Why? “That the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17:20-24). And whether clergy or laity, all of us, let us remember our Lord’s further words: “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all” (Mark 9:35). I thank you for having us on, Fr. Tom, and I hope that somehow those listening will be inspired to take action themselves on the local level.

Fr. Tom: Thank you. Pdn. Peter, any closing thoughts?

Pdn. Peter: I would just say, “Amen,” to everything that Charles has just said. I really do appreciate that, and I’d just like to compliment him. It’s just such an honor for me to work with him. We’ve known each other for at least 30 years, and I must say I’ve never met almost anyone who has the energy and the love for the Church as he does. For myself, I really am a strong believer in going back to basics, going back to the Gospel, going back to the Scriptures, and when I was thinking about what we were going to talk about this evening, I went to some of the works of St. Paul in Ephesians and in Romans. It was just so clear to me what he was telling us to do. He was telling us to forbear one another in love, to be eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace, to outdo one another in showing honor. These are not passive actions; they’re extremely active: Be eager, outdo one another, be subject to one another out of reverence to Christ. These are activities of Christian athletes. Sometimes, when we have difficulties, attaining the unity is just as simple as talking with one another. The Psalmist said, “In much counsel there is safety.” It’s all there in the Scriptures; all we have to do is follow it. Thank you, Fr. Tom.

Fr. Tom: Gentlemen, thank you so much for your insight and your wisdom. We want to thank our guests, Dr. Charles Ajalat and Pdn. Peter Danilchick, for sharing their insight and their experience with us tonight. Gentlemen, thank you so much. We want to thank John for manning the calls, Bobby for engineering the program, all of you for listening and participating.

I have a few final thoughts I want to share with you. Orthodox unity is very important. In fact, it’s a crucial topic; it’s not ancillary to our faith. It’s not something that’s optional or just nice to have. If we get it right, we enhance our witness to the world; we fulfill the will of God who desires that we do all things with one mind and one heart. If we get this wrong, we continue to make excuses and justify the status quo; we’ll be denying the will of God for the Church and will continue to harm our witness to the world. So promote Orthodox unity, support pan-Orthodox causes like IOCC, OCMC, Ancient Faith Radio, organizations that do good work in the name of the Church. Speak with your bishops and your clergy. Tell them you want this; tell them you need this. Get to know one another. Visit a parish outside of your own jurisdiction. Finally, pray sincerely, fervently, that God would establish his Church so that we can speak with one voice to a world that’s desperately in need of her witness.

That’s our show for tonight. Remember to like us on Facebook, facebook.com/ancientfaithtoday; share our program after it’s posted; give us your feedback; contact us with any ideas you might want to hear; and join us next week. We’re going to be talking about: Is technology consumption killing us? We’re going to have Andrew Weaver. You’re going to love the show next week. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Good night, everyone.