Hawkke Profile Joined January 2011 United States 40 Posts Last Edited: 2011-05-16 20:13:20 #1



This is the question Artosis asked here:



I facetiously answered hold position, because I always use hold when I do a run by with lings in team games. With my limited APM, I found this most helpful to get some damage done. But at high level games with enough APM to respond quickly and either move workers or get attacking units in time to defend, it will be different.



So I accepted the challenge when Artosis replied back with a request for a link.



I decided to go into Unit Test Map by SuperFerret and test Attack, Hold, Patrol with these units:



21 Workers for all Three races on minerals.

1 DT

4 Zealots (no charge)

8 Marines (no stim)

6 Speed Lings



Each unit had 10 seconds to kill workers, this time is arbitrary and allows most units to get a few attacks off. Also the count of units is based on:



1 DT, usually keep them separated to maximize scans and your investment.

4 Zealots, enough to carry in a warp prism.

8 Marines, medivac.

6 Speed Lings, enough to not merit a large investment and a good counter when opponent is moving out.



Now the map has a different mineral patch setup than other maps, but figured with 21 workers it would create a good saturated scenario. The test has these standards:



Hold position was directly in the middle of the worker line where it maximizes amount of potential kills.



Attack move was done by moving next to base, then attack Move from left of base into the middle.



Patrol was similar to attack move, from directly left of base to patrol to the right and back in the middle of mineral line.





Below are my graphs to show which is best.







With this graph in place, we can come to these conclusions from the test.



1) Range units are ideal, probably 4 hydra's in an overlord will do more damage then 6 slings.

2) On ROI, 6 slings are the best, marines second, and 4 zealots third. (Based on 150 minerals for 6 lings, speed 100/100=250/100. Marines = 400+100/100=500/100)

Now this statement needs an explanation. DT's while probably having the biggest ROI potential, in a controlled environment was not the most cost effective with all the tech cost associated with getting 1 DT to a mineral line.

3) Attack Move and Patrol will generally be the best choice, now I did notice that hold position caused more units to be damaged than attack move, I do not think it's that relevant to this testing.



In closing, using attack move after getting units into position will be the best choice when dealing with ranged units and normal saturation. If an overly saturated based and melee units, hold position will be best.



This is my first informative post, so hope my organization makes sense. Any feedback much appreciated.



edit1: Changed graph to have a legend, so easier to read. Amove/Patrol are essentially the same exception of Speedlings.



edit2: I realize I am a nooblet, this does not answer Artosis question, I will now work on that as well. Which attacks fastest? We knew what to do in BW, why has no one measured for SC2 yet?This is the question Artosis asked here: Twitter I facetiously answered hold position, because I always use hold when I do a run by with lings in team games. With my limited APM, I found this most helpful to get some damage done. But at high level games with enough APM to respond quickly and either move workers or get attacking units in time to defend, it will be different.So I accepted the challenge when Artosis replied back with a request for a link.I decided to go into Unit Test Map by SuperFerret and test Attack, Hold, Patrol with these units:21 Workers for all Three races on minerals.1 DT4 Zealots (no charge)8 Marines (no stim)6 Speed LingsEach unit had 10 seconds to kill workers, this time is arbitrary and allows most units to get a few attacks off. Also the count of units is based on:1 DT, usually keep them separated to maximize scans and your investment.4 Zealots, enough to carry in a warp prism.8 Marines, medivac.6 Speed Lings, enough to not merit a large investment and a good counter when opponent is moving out.Now the map has a different mineral patch setup than other maps, but figured with 21 workers it would create a good saturated scenario. The test has these standards:Hold position was directly in the middle of the worker line where it maximizes amount of potential kills.Attack move was done by moving next to base, then attack Move from left of base into the middle.Patrol was similar to attack move, from directly left of base to patrol to the right and back in the middle of mineral line.Below are my graphs to show which is best.With this graph in place, we can come to these conclusions from the test.1) Range units are ideal, probably 4 hydra's in an overlord will do more damage then 6 slings.2) On ROI, 6 slings are the best, marines second, and 4 zealots third. (Based on 150 minerals for 6 lings, speed 100/100=250/100. Marines = 400+100/100=500/100)Now this statement needs an explanation. DT's while probably having the biggest ROI potential, in a controlled environment was not the most cost effective with all the tech cost associated with getting 1 DT to a mineral line.3) Attack Move and Patrol will generally be the best choice, now I did notice that hold position caused more units to be damaged than attack move, I do not think it's that relevant to this testing.In closing, using attack move after getting units into position will be the best choice when dealing with ranged units and normal saturation. If an overly saturated based and melee units, hold position will be best.This is my first informative post, so hope my organization makes sense. Any feedback much appreciated.edit1: Changed graph to have a legend, so easier to read. Amove/Patrol are essentially the same exception of Speedlings.edit2: I realize I am a nooblet, this does not answer Artosis question, I will now work on that as well.

terence158 Profile Joined October 2010 Australia 64 Posts #2 That graph is somewhat hard to read. Not to flame, just to constructively criticize.



Because you aren't using a continuous variable across the X-axis, you should not use a connected line graph. Probably a histogram or simple dot plot would be better, and perhaps put the title in colour to match the key. Also, why not use 16 lings as that is equivalent cost to 4 zealots and 8 marines?

ZeromuS Profile Blog Joined October 2010 Canada 12923 Posts #3 i dont believe artosis was necessarily referencing units in a mineral line but micro during a battle. Often move patrol move would have benefits with some units in micro situations where the same unit in move attackmove move would do worse than if patrol was used Strategy Overwatch is awesome | Support is the best role | @TL_ZeromuS | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_

ComaDose Profile Blog Joined December 2009 Canada 6342 Posts #4 I also believe he was referencing the time it takes to attack the first time. (split second)

Such as vultures fire more rapidly and slow down less when using patrol micro. BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.

ODKStevez Profile Joined February 2011 Ireland 1210 Posts Last Edited: 2011-05-16 17:11:33 #5 The picture won't load for me for some reason. =/ Luppa <3

Anorae Profile Joined June 2010 United States 36 Posts #6 On May 17 2011 01:28 Hawkke wrote:



1) Range units are ideal, probably 4 hydra's in an overlord will do more damage then 6 slings.







I would imagine that 4 hydra's would do more damage, but they are also much, much more of an investment (just the overlord itself to bring them could cost 2/3 of what 6 lings would cost you if you lose it...).



I think testing with only 6 lings is sort of too few to be informative.



Interesting stuff though I would imagine that 4 hydra's would do more damage, but they are also much, much more of an investment (just the overlord itself to bring them could cost 2/3 of what 6 lings would cost you if you lose it...).I think testing with only 6 lings is sort of too few to be informative.Interesting stuff though

BinxyBrown Profile Joined December 2010 United States 230 Posts Last Edited: 2011-05-16 17:19:20 #7 You should just do separate graphs, that one is really sloppy and hard to read, it isn't at all like a traditional graph. I would do 3 graphs, one for each unit and use bar graphs for how many probes killed.



I haven't tested any of this, but from what I've seen in videos and in my experience with the game in general I would think that all of them would be the same for ranged units, and for melee units hold position would probably be the same as well if in range. People need to realize that the game is programmed much better than BW was, standards have increased a lot and error checking is a lot more automated than it used to be as well. I am sure that there are some micro tricks that will be more efficient than other, and maybe some abuses like the old 7% mineral trick that was patched out, but for things like attacking via patrol or amove I am sure blizzard made them function similarly based on distance to units.



Banelings are like Ice Climbers if they grab you... your dead.

ZeromuS Profile Blog Joined October 2010 Canada 12923 Posts #8 On May 17 2011 02:08 ComaDose wrote:

I also believe he was referencing the time it takes to attack the first time. (split second)

Such as vultures fire more rapidly and slow down less when using patrol micro.



Ah yes this too but I believe this doesnt change due to the need to see the whole attack animation and also the speed decrease before speed increase being coded into the game better than it was in BW Ah yes this too but I believe this doesnt change due to the need to see the whole attack animation and also the speed decrease before speed increase being coded into the game better than it was in BW Strategy Overwatch is awesome | Support is the best role | @TL_ZeromuS | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_

thurst0n Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 609 Posts #9 Thank you for putting time into this, can you test in battle with some normal compositions? Like marines kiting zealots or something like that.



I think the problem is it comes down to the situation and player skill.



does anyone move lings to a mineral line to put them on hold position? If the probes go too far away they no longer get attacked (as you can see in the results), it seems patrol does the best job. How is Patrol differant from attack move in the first part of the path.



If I tell a stalker to attack move across the map, and then patrol across the map, what traits will be differant about the movement? I know it will come back after it makes it across, but i'm talking about just the initial movement before it tries to return. P.S. I'm nub. If you'd like you can follow me @xthurst but its not worth it ill be honest

Hawkke Profile Joined January 2011 United States 40 Posts #10 I am using 6 slings, as the investment of 16 lings in regards to larva(8 total) is a high cost for an unknown ROI. While 6 slings can be a great counter to a forth coming push. This is based on mineral line harrass. If Zerg use 16 slings then I will change it, but in pro match ups, generally its very few.

whatthefat Profile Blog Joined August 2010 United States 918 Posts #11 The benefit to hold position in a mineral line is that if the workers are left mining the zerglings will not go running after nearby army units (as they would under other commands).



But as ZeromuS said, I don't think this is what Artosis was referring to. SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"

Hawkke Profile Joined January 2011 United States 40 Posts #12 On May 17 2011 02:02 ZeromuS wrote:

i dont believe artosis was necessarily referencing units in a mineral line but micro during a battle. Often move patrol move would have benefits with some units in micro situations where the same unit in move attackmove move would do worse than if patrol was used



Hrmm, if this is the case, then damn it.. I need to accept challenge again. I thought he meant in regards to mineral line harrass. Guess I deserve that, for having that in my mind.



Anyone else realize they have way too many starcraft related thoughts in their minds..

Hrmm, if this is the case, then damn it.. I need to accept challenge again. I thought he meant in regards to mineral line harrass. Guess I deserve that, for having that in my mind.Anyone else realize they have way too many starcraft related thoughts in their minds..

tehemperorer Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 2183 Posts #13 Great post, I got the information from the map and understood what you were testing. Thanks! Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.

SnowSC2 Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 676 Posts Last Edited: 2011-05-16 17:37:24 #14 the point of using hold position with lings is so they dont run off to attack other things.

in testing hold position with lings, of course it wont be as effective.

MoreFaSho Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 1427 Posts #15 This is a great attempt and I encourage you to do these things in the future, but I'm not sure you're answering the right question.



I'm pretty sure artosis was asking which fires quickest from the command and which is most effective when you're doing stutter-step micro or other similar types of micro. So the marine test in this case might be a reasonable test, but still not quite right.



If they a-move, hold position, and patrol all have the same reaction speed then you would expect patrol to do the most damage because it's going to have to spend the least amount of time on average acquiring a new target. I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work

LovE- Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 1961 Posts #16 Yeah, he was referring to the patrol micro in BW. LovE.311 (NA) || @LovE_Sc2

Ziddletwix Profile Joined October 2010 29 Posts #17 Interesting and valid question. A few points though.



Because the x axis isn't continuous, connecting the points is just confusing. Leave them as points.



But most importantly, some of the numbers are a bit hard to draw conclusions from. for instance, yes, 8 marines is a much better drop then 6 slings. But you can't really say "ranged is better" because 6 slings are worth 150 minerals, 8 marines worth 400. And yes 4 Hydras would be better then 6 slings, but 4 Hydras is a way more signifigant force then 6 slings. 12 roaches would be probably better than 4 Hydras but that doesn't mean much.



But mostly I think 6 slings is bizarrely few. If I plan on counterattacking a mineral line, I'd probably send at least 10-12. It's also much more in keeping with the investment of your other drop examples.

Coriolis Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 1152 Posts #18 Seems like patrol is the best option in almost all cases. And now that we can remap keys patrol can be mapped to Q for easier usage. Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft

Oreo7 Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 1643 Posts #19 I would imagine hold position goes up as saturation increases. Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet

adeezy Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 1426 Posts #20 I always assumed hold position was best because when the enemies attacking units come into play don't your units switch priority to them? I asked my friend how the ratio at a party was, he replied. "Let's just say for every guy there was two dudes."

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