Les 78 Suspended Account Thread OP

Discussion Trappy/BlackSheep flight in Grand Canyon results in new R/C and FPV ban



The net result of this, it now seems, is the rather predictable result: a new, unambiguous ban of all R/C activity (FPV or otherwise) anywhere in the Grand Canyon National Park, an area of 1900 SQUARE MILES. Here is a link to the new use and access rule issued on April 17 (look at page 3):



http://www.nps.gov/grca/parkmgmt/upl...compendium.pdf



It cites the protection of wildlife (birds) as the justification. I'm no expert on that, and it's true that there are thousands of full-size heli flights into the canyon every year, but perhaps the high-pitch whine of the Zephyr prop, the bird-like size of the R/C craft, and its speed and proximity to the canyon walls and vegetation could cause birds to become disturbed and flee their nests or abandon their young. I think we know the government doesn't need much pretext to outlaw a "hobby" so it really doesn't matter whether you agree with the reason. It is conceivable that other national parks will adopt this ban, since I assume they all review each other's policies. That could mean that many beautiful parks that would be great for R/C and/or FPV are going to be off-limits officially.



I'm not trying to give any of us a hard time about what we love to do. What matters is how we handle this amazing hobby we have with respect to the public, and especially in places of sensitivity. It has been suggested here, and elsewhere, that we remain discreet and responsible with our FPV flying. I have to agree. If you are going to fly in a canyon governed by national park rangers or local government, think about asking for permission first. If you don't or can't, please use some discretion if you decide to fly anyway. Don't fly off a busy tourist overlook and land on the sidewalk; find a quieter place. If you are caught, be polite, apologize and pay the fines as a cost of the adventure. The last thing we need is to try to "fight the man" on what the rules are or should be after the fact. Better to be laughed off as silly people with toy planes than to challenge the authority figures about whether what you are doing is legally permitted. (I'm not saying we shouldn't resist regulation; but lobbying about regulations should happen collectively and responsibly.) And if you end up with an amazing flight in a questionable location, think twice about posting the video to YouTube and showing off. If we have to deal with regulation, better to do it in an organized, community way than to try to defend dramatic individual flights as being safe or not after the fact and once a law enforcement officer has staked a position against you. That approach makes us start behind the 8-ball in defending the safety and value of what we are doing. No police officer or bureaucrat likes to be proven wrong after the fact about the rules he is supposed to know and enforce. If rules need to change, it's got to be before we fly, not "look what I can do with my freedoms and you can't stop me, ha ha!".



This incident follows Team BlackSheep's infamous New York City flight which could have (and still may!) trigger nationwide regulation of FPV or RC flying in urban settings or elsewhere. (Like with the Grand Canyon flight, Trappy keeps saying that these flights are legal and therefore cannot be stopped. That argument is exactly what will encourage a lawmaker to ban it!) Look, it's cool and even inspiring that they did it, it's debatable whether there was any danger to anyone, but by publicizing it widely on YouTube and arguing so loudly about what's permitted in an urban area that also sees heavy helicopter, GA and commercial traffic, they are just begging for someone to dream up a regulation to shut us down.



As many of you know, BlackSheep is based in Europe and was on a "tour" of western American during the Grand Canyon incident. In my mind, that makes it even worse because they can always go home to enjoy their hobby, not subject to whatever regulations their high-profile stunt flying in our country may trigger, and that we will have to live with. Too bad that if you hike deep into the GC and bring along your park flyer and/or an FPV plane, you won't be able to fly now without violating the new rule. Ambiguity can be good until you challenge it and force clarification, as happened here.



Judge for yourself. Below is the BlackSheep's FPV video of the canyon (the part that was not seized). Note, starting half-way through, the launch, fly-overs, and landing at the main tourist platform right near the Visitor Center, and the chasing of birds, plus the debate about the rules at the end. All I'm really saying, in the end, is that this was a terrible way to handle the situation and the consequences to the hobby of acting this way are real.



I welcome your thoughts. Let's keep it civil, please. We are all in this to have fun and enjoy the beauty of FPV flight.



Grand Canyon [ [email protected] 12/13] (5 min 57 sec) I am posting this because I think it's a really important lesson for us. Many of you know Trappy and BlackSheep as awesome FPV pilots who make great videos. I love their stuff and really respect their technical advice. But recently they were caught at the Grand Canyon flying from a prominent tourist overlook, were fined by park rangers, and had their SD card confiscated. They made a HUGE deal about it, going to the District Attorney to get their money and SD card back, arguing (correctly) that the law prohibiting non-permit aircraft operations in the Grand Canyon did not apply to toy R/C airplanes, which are harmless. The park rangers weren't too nice and weren't terribly pleased about the pushback, of course.The net result of this, it now seems, is the rather predictable result: a new, unambiguous ban of all R/C activity (FPV or otherwise) anywhere in the Grand Canyon National Park, an area of 1900 SQUARE MILES. Here is a link to the new use and access rule issued on April 17 (look at page 3):It cites the protection of wildlife (birds) as the justification. I'm no expert on that, and it's true that there are thousands of full-size heli flights into the canyon every year, but perhaps the high-pitch whine of the Zephyr prop, the bird-like size of the R/C craft, and its speed and proximity to the canyon walls and vegetation could cause birds to become disturbed and flee their nests or abandon their young. I think we know the government doesn't need much pretext to outlaw a "hobby" so it really doesn't matter whether you agree with the reason. It is conceivable that other national parks will adopt this ban, since I assume they all review each other's policies. That could mean that many beautiful parks that would be great for R/C and/or FPV are going to be off-limits officially.I'm not trying to give any of us a hard time about what we love to do. What matters is how we handle this amazing hobby we have with respect to the public, and especially in places of sensitivity. It has been suggested here, and elsewhere, that we remain discreet and responsible with our FPV flying. I have to agree. If you are going to fly in a canyon governed by national park rangers or local government, think about asking for permission first. If you don't or can't, please use some discretion if you decide to fly anyway. Don't fly off a busy tourist overlook and land on the sidewalk; find a quieter place. If you are caught, be polite, apologize and pay the fines as a cost of the adventure. The last thing we need is to try to "fight the man" on what the rules are or should be after the fact. Better to be laughed off as silly people with toy planes than to challenge the authority figures about whether what you are doing is legally permitted. (I'm not saying we shouldn't resist regulation; but lobbying about regulations should happen collectively and responsibly.) And if you end up with an amazing flight in a questionable location, think twice about posting the video to YouTube and showing off. If we have to deal with regulation, better to do it in an organized, community way than to try to defend dramatic individual flights as being safe or not after the fact and once a law enforcement officer has staked a position against you. That approach makes us start behind the 8-ball in defending the safety and value of what we are doing. No police officer or bureaucrat likes to be proven wrong after the fact about the rules he is supposed to know and enforce. If rules need to change, it's got to be before we fly, not "look what I can do with my freedoms and you can't stop me, ha ha!".This incident follows Team BlackSheep's infamous New York City flight which could have (and still may!) trigger nationwide regulation of FPV or RC flying in urban settings or elsewhere. (Like with the Grand Canyon flight, Trappy keeps saying that these flights are legal and therefore cannot be stopped. That argument is exactly what will encourage a lawmaker to ban it!) Look, it's cool and even inspiring that they did it, it's debatable whether there was any danger to anyone, but by publicizing it widely on YouTube and arguing so loudly about what's permitted in an urban area that also sees heavy helicopter, GA and commercial traffic, they are just begging for someone to dream up a regulation to shut us down.As many of you know, BlackSheep is based in Europe and was on a "tour" of western American during the Grand Canyon incident. In my mind, that makes it even worse because they can always go home to enjoy their hobby, not subject to whatever regulations their high-profile stunt flying in our country may trigger, and that we will have to live with. Too bad that if you hike deep into the GC and bring along your park flyer and/or an FPV plane, you won't be able to fly now without violating the new rule. Ambiguity can be good until you challenge it and force clarification, as happened here.Judge for yourself. Below is the BlackSheep's FPV video of the canyon (the part that was not seized). Note, starting half-way through, the launch, fly-overs, and landing at the main tourist platform right near the Visitor Center, and the chasing of birds, plus the debate about the rules at the end. All I'm really saying, in the end, is that this was a terrible way to handle the situation and the consequences to the hobby of acting this way are real.I welcome your thoughts. Let's keep it civil, please. We are all in this to have fun and enjoy the beauty of FPV flight.