VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY

December 11, 2001 9:14 a.m.

Page 1

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA

2 ATLANTA DIVISION

3

ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,

4

Plaintiff, CIVIL ACTION FILE

5 vs. NO. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)

6 JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and

PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,

7

Defendants.

8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

9

10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

11 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY

12

December 11, 2001

13 9:14 a.m.

14 Alexander Gallo & Associates, Inc.

500 The Candler Building

15 127 Peachtree Street, N.E.

Atlanta, Georgia

16

17

Alexander J. Gallo, CCR-B-1332, CRR

18

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20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL

2 .

3 On behalf of the Plaintiff:

4 DARNAY HOFFMAN, Esq.

5 Law Offices of Darnay Hoffman

6 Suite 209

7 210 West 70th Street

8 New York, New York 10023

9 (212) 712-2766

10 -and-

11 EVAN M. ALTMAN, Esq.

12 Law Offices of Evan M. Altman

13 Suite 495

14 5901-C Peachtree Dunwoody Road

15 Atlanta, Georgia 30328

16 (770) 394-6466

17 .

18 .

19 .

20 .

21 .

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .

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1 On behalf of the Defendants:

2 JAMES C. RAWLS, Esq.

3 ERIC P. SCHROEDER, Esq.

4 S. DEREK BAUER, Esq.

5 Powell, Goldstein, Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.

6 Sixteenth Floor

7 191 Peachtree Street, N.E.

8 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

9 (404) 572-6600

10 -and-

11 L. LIN WOOD, Esq.

12 BRANDON HORNSBY, Esq.

13 MAHALEY C. PAULK, Esq.

14 L. Lin Wood, P.C.

15 2140 The Equitable Building

16 100 Peachtree Street

17 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

18 (404) 522-1713

19 .

20 Also Present:

21 John Bennett Ramsey

22 Michael McElroy, Videographer

23 .

24 .

25 .

Page 4

1 Videotaped Deposition of Patricia P. Ramsey

2 December 11, 2001

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

4 video record at 9:14.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Good morning, Mrs.

6 Ramsey, Lin Wood.

7 This is the deposition of Patricia

8 Ramsey in the case of Robert Christian Wolf

9 versus John Bennett Ramsey and Patricia Paugh

10 Ramsey.

11 Do you need the index number for that

12 for the tape?

13 Mrs. Ramsey, have you ever attended a

14 deposition before.

15 MR. WOOD: Maybe we ought to have --

16 MR. HOFFMAN: So we have a record of

17 everybody that is here.

18 MR. WOOD: -- so we have an

19 understanding, we might want to make sure we have

20 a record of who is here and then a couple of

21 other stipulations.

22 I am Lin Wood. I represent John and

23 Patsy Ramsey.

24 MR. RAWLS: I am Jim Rawls,

25 co-counsel with Mr. Wood for John and

Page 5

1 Patsy Ramsey.

2 MR. RAMSEY: I am John Ramsey.

3 MS. PAULK: Mahaley Paulk.

4 MR. BAUER: Derek Bauer.

5 MR. SCHROEDER: Eric Schroeder.

6 MR. ALTMAN: Evan Altman, co-counsel

7 with Darnay Hoffman on behalf of Mr. Wolf.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. And, of course,

9 Darnay Hoffman, lead counsel on the Chris Wolf

10 case.

11 MR. WOOD: And I think we have

12 agreed that this deposition is taken pursuant to

13 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and that the

14 deposition is taken pursuant to agreement of

15 counsel.

16 Mrs. Ramsey will read and sign, and I

17 am sure that can be undertaken before any notary

18 public.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Certainly.

20 Also, this is a deposition that is

21 being taken subject to a so-ordered, stipulated

22 protective order also and confidentiality agreement

23 between counsel.

24 MR. WOOD: It is. And in that

25 regard, I want to make just one statement, if I

Page 6

1 may, on the record.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure.

3 MR. WOOD: Federal Rule of Civil

4 Procedure 26(b)(1) states that the scope of

5 discovery is as follows, and I quote:

6 "Parties may obtain discovery regarding

7 any matter not privileged that is relevant to the

8 claim or defense of any party."

9 And it goes on to state:

10 "For good cause, the Court may order

11 discovery of any matter relevant to the subject

12 matter involved in the action."

13 As you know, Darnay, that represents

14 the change that was effectuated in the scope of

15 discovery with the December 2000 amendments to the

16 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. And in the

17 stipulation and protective order in paragraph 2,

18 the parties, including the plaintiff, and you, on

19 behalf of the plaintiff, have agreed that, and I

20 quote from the protective order, "Consistent with

21 the amendments to the Federal Rules of Civil

22 Procedure, which became effective December 1,

23 2000, the parties recognize the right of parties'

24 counsel to issue appropriate instructions to

25 parties during their depositions in order to

Page 7

1 maintain the appropriate scope of discovery as

2 defined in the rules."

3 I make that observation solely because

4 I do not want there to be any subsequent

5 misunderstanding or misrepresentation as to why it

6 may be necessary, during the course of this

7 deposition, for me, as counsel for the Ramseys,

8 to instruct Mrs. Ramsey that a subject that you

9 are inquiring about is beyond the scope of the

10 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

11 That is to say, you may inquire into

12 something that is relevant to the subject matter,

13 but since there has not been good cause shown and

14 a court order entered, as we have noted in our

15 protective order, the parties have agreed that we

16 would instruct the witness not to answer because

17 it would go beyond the claim or the defense in

18 this action and it would not be in any way a

19 matter of Mrs. Ramsey being unwilling to answer a

20 question. It would simply be a matter of, as you

21 and I know, we don't make the rules. We are

22 simply obligated to play by the rules, and so,

23 therefore, we will obviously play by the rules

24 today. And if we do get outside the relevant

25 scope of discovery, I will exercise my obligation

Page 8

1 as recognized by you to make an instruction to

2 her not to answer the question.

3 Agreed?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely.

5 MR. WOOD: Okay.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: And, in fact, what I

7 thought we would do is that, if we run into a

8 roadblock with respect to what is, in fact,

9 relevant or not relevant, what we could do is

10 just simply make a notation for the record, and

11 then I thought that the most prudent thing for

12 everybody to do is, as we are coming to the

13 close of discovery, that almost in like an

14 omnibus motion, both parties could present Judge

15 Carnes with anything that they wanted in the way

16 of an instruction to compel an answer, if

17 appropriate.

18 So if we need to get a judge's

19 ruling on issues or whatever, we will just simply

20 reserve it -- preserve it in the deposition

21 record; and then what we would do is at some

22 future date, just simply go before Judge Carnes

23 and just have her make a one-time ruling on all

24 of our issues and claims and whatever else with

25 respect to discovery, which I think is probably

Page 9

1 the most economical way to do it, and maybe I

2 think Judge Carnes would probably appreciate it if

3 we handled it that way.

4 MR. WOOD: Well, I just don't want

5 the record to be misconstrued that, obviously, we

6 understand that there may be, obviously, a need

7 to, in this deposition, to make the instruction.

8 And it is not to be used against the witness.

9 It is simply a matter of trying to properly

10 follow the rules.

11 And then, if necessary, if someone

12 believes that the witness should have answered,

13 then obviously that party has a right, as that

14 party deems appropriate, to file a motion with

15 Judge Carnes and get a ruling.

16 I think we agree on what we

17 stipulated to, and I think we agree on the scope

18 of the deposition. I don't really think we are

19 going to have a problem. I think you will stay

20 to the issue of the claims made by Mr. Wolf and

21 the defenses made by the Ramseys. And if we

22 don't go beyond that, we are not going to have a

23 problem, I don't believe, on that particular

24 issue.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Just for the record, so

Page 10

1 there is no misunderstanding later on in the

2 deposition, what precisely do you see the claims

3 as Mr. Wolf is representing them in the complaint

4 for the purposes of establishing relevance here?

5 MR. WOOD: Mr. Wolf has made a

6 claim, as I understand it, that the Ramseys

7 published certain statements in their book that

8 were false pertaining to him, that they published

9 certain statements in their book that were also

10 defamatory with regard to Mr. Wolf. That makes

11 up the first part of his libel claim.

12 And then he contends that they

13 published those statements, false and defamatory,

14 with actual malice. And as I understand the

15 claim, that actual malice is based on the

16 allegation that Patsy Ramsey killed JonBenet and

17 that Mr. Ramsey has been part of a cover-up.

18 The second part of the case, as I

19 understand it, is that, subject to the statute of

20 limitations problems, Mr. Wolf is asserting that

21 the Ramseys hired investigators to give the

22 Boulder police information about Mr. Wolf which

23 inflicted emotional distress upon him.

24 Those are your claims, as I think I

25 clearly understand them. Have I got them right?

Page 11

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. The only

2 reason I am asking you to articulate them for the

3 record is so that, if I go into any of these

4 claim areas, you will at least deem them relevant

5 for the purposes of the deposition.

6 MR. WOOD: I will have to deal with

7 that on a question-by-question basis.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand that, but

9 you do understand that if, in fact, one of the

10 claims is that Mrs. Ramsey was somehow involved

11 in either the authorship of the ransom note or in

12 the death of her daughter, that questions

13 involving that are, in fact, relevant for the

14 purposes of the rules?

15 MR. WOOD: I don't have any problem

16 with acknowledging that issues regarding ransom

17 note authorship by Mrs. Ramsey, and the issue of

18 whether she, as contended by you and Mr. Wolf,

19 killed her daughter, are clearly part of Mr.

20 Wolf's lawsuit. And that is part of the burden

21 that Mr. Wolf has to carry to prove that beyond

22 clear and convincing evidence.

23 The point being, though, that there

24 are a host of matters that would go to the

25 subject matter but are not specifically confined

Page 12

1 to those claims and the defenses, the basic

2 defense being truth, that published statements

3 were true, and that, in fact, Mrs. Ramsey was not

4 involved in the criminal death of her daughter.

5 I think the only other defense we

6 have is not something you would be questioning

7 Mrs. Ramsey about, and that might go to the issue

8 of I think the 13th defense and the issue of

9 publicity of the plaintiff.

10 I don't think we are going to have a

11 problem; but, for example, personal private

12 information about the Ramseys' life at present

13 certainly would not be relevant to the claims

14 made.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I agree.

16 MR. WOOD: That is just one example.

17 I want to make sure we protect that on the

18 record. I think we understand where we are

19 headed, so let's get going and get there.

20 PATRICIA RAMSEY, having been first

21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

22 EXAMINATION

23 BY-MR.HOFFMAN:

24 Q. Good afternoon -- actually, good

25 morning, Mrs. Ramsey. Thank you for being here.

Page 13

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. You just heard your attorney explain,

3 basically, the claims in this action. Is there

4 anything that you need clarified with respect to

5 what he said before we go forward?

6 MR. WOOD: I don't think she can

7 answer that question.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I just want to

9 give her the opportunity to --

10 MR. WOOD: We would have to send her

11 to law school and let her go 24 years of

12 practice before we would ask her if she could

13 understand anything I might say.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

15 believe that you were the coauthor on a book

16 called "the Death of Innocence"; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And I would just like to ask you, in

20 your own words, though I know there is discussion

21 in the book, why it is that you wrote the book

22 "Death of Innocence"?

23 A. My husband and I wrote the book so

24 that we could make sure that the truth was

25 presented accurately from our own hearts and lips.

Page 14

1 Q. Were there any other reasons?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. I am going to -- there is a

4 reference on page 408 of your book. I am going

5 to show that to Mr. Lin first.

6 MR. WOOD: Do you want to mark this?

7 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I just simply

8 want to refresh her memory with respect to that.

9 MR. WOOD: This is page 408 of the

10 paperback?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, with respect to

12 the paperback.

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Where there is --

14 MR. WOOD: Are you asking her to

15 look at the highlighted portion?

16 MR. HOFFMAN: The highlighted portion

17 there, just to refresh her memory with respect to

18 maybe another reason why the book was written.

19 MR. WOOD: You are not representing

20 that this paragraph talks about why the book was

21 written?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, it is one of the

23 express reasons for going into the material that

24 was gone into there with the hope that the killer

25 will be caught; the truth being that the Ramseys,

Page 15

1 contrary to media reports, were not responsible

2 for their daughter's death, and that this book,

3 in fact, not only shows that, but also the book

4 contains a chapter on the murderer, meaning that

5 there is a profile of the potential murderer.

6 And I wanted to know from Mrs. Ramsey

7 whether the purpose of the book was something

8 more than just a general, you wanted the truth

9 out.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was the purpose of

11 the book also to present information to the

12 public who might then be able to come forward as

13 to who the murderer was in this particular case?

14 MR. WOOD: That doesn't have anything

15 to do with page 408.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, it is mentioned

17 there. That is one of the stated goals.

18 MR. WOOD: We may just be parsing

19 words. This talks about their goals, bringing the

20 killer to justice.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Right.

22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was this part of

23 your goal?

24 MR. WOOD: Was the book consistent

25 with part of your goals? I think that is a

Page 16

1 fair question.

2 THE WITNESS: So could you repeat the

3 question?

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You will be asking

5 me to do a lot of that today. Believe me.

6 Was one of the goals of writing the

7 book to help in the solution of this crime,

8 identifying the possible murderer; meaning that if

9 you put this information before the public, that

10 maybe someone would have information that could

11 then come forward --

12 MR. WOOD: Objection.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: You object?

14 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

15 the question, but go ahead and finish. I thought

16 you were through.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like Mrs.

18 Ramsey to explain whether or not that was part of

19 the goal of the book was basically to assist in

20 finding the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe there

22 was a section of the book that talks about the

23 profile of the killer, as we have been told about

24 him. So that information, yes, was included in

25 the book to be brought forth to the public in

Page 17

1 the event that that would assist in someone

2 remembering things that would lead us to leads

3 that would lead us to the killer.

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So would it be

5 fair to say that the purpose of the book was to

6 do something other than just simply tell the

7 truth about the case, that there was -- that you

8 were trying to assist the investigation in some

9 way by including certain information in the book,

10 such as the profile of the murderer?

11 A. The reason that I wrote the book is

12 so that there is in one place, in black and

13 white, an accurate account of what happened.

14 I mean, when I was writing it, I was

15 thinking of my children and my grandchildren.

16 There are so many stories out there that are

17 false and misleading and untrue, I wanted -- you

18 know, I was thinking of this as a historical

19 document to give to my children.

20 Q. Could you explain, to the best that

21 you remember, the process by which you wrote the

22 book? I mean, did you sit down with a pen and

23 pad or did you use a Dictaphone? How was the

24 book written, given that both you and John are

25 listed as authors, the actual writing process?

Page 18

1 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

2 the question.

3 You may answer the question, if you

4 understand it.

5 The problem is you kind of sometimes

6 ask two or three questions within one.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: I understand.

8 MR. WOOD: I want her to be clear on

9 exactly what the question is. I think, correct

10 me if I am wrong, I think he is trying to find

11 out whether you actually physically typed on a

12 computer, dictated into a tape, made handwritten

13 notes.

14 Is that what you are asking?

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Exactly.

16 MR. WOOD: Do you understand that?

17 THE WITNESS: I think we did some of

18 all of that.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Did you and Mr.

20 Ramsey sit physically together and write the book,

21 or did you write it in separate, you know,

22 environments, meaning you are in one part of the

23 house and he is in another part? Did you

24 compose it that way?

25 A. Some of all of that. We were living

Page 19

1 in an apartment at the time, so it was a small

2 living space. So we were --

3 Q. At some point, I believe there was --

4 well, I will withdraw that question.

5 Did anyone else assist you in writing

6 the book?

7 A. We had an editor that was provided by

8 the publisher and a ghost writer, if you want to

9 call it that, who helped us with some of the

10 structure and organization.

11 Q. Who is the ghost writer?

12 A. I think his name is in the book

13 there somewhere. Let's see. Oh, Robert Wise,

14 Reverend Robert Wise.

15 Q. When you looked at the final

16 manuscript of the book, was it very different

17 from what you had originally prepared and given

18 to Mr. Wise, or Reverend Wise?

19 MR. WOOD: Are you assuming they

20 prepared a manuscript and gave to it Wise and

21 then got back a manuscript?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: At some point, I am

23 assuming that their work product was turned into

24 a manuscript of some sort and that Mr. Wise

25 worked with it in some way.

Page 20

1 MR. WOOD: Well, I am not sure that

2 is right. It may have been given to him

3 piecemeal, Darnay. I think you need to figure

4 that out first.

5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I will withdraw

6 that question and ask you very simply, explain

7 exactly how you worked with Reverend Wise on

8 writing the book.

9 A. Well, he would sit, and we would

10 talk. I had some things that I had written, and

11 sometimes he would ask questions about things.

12 It was kind of a back and forth. Sometimes he

13 would take something I had written and edit, and

14 then would -- I mean, it was kind of an evolving

15 process.

16 Q. Did he use a tape recorder to tape

17 any of the things you were saying?

18 A. I believe so, yes.

19 Q. Did you give him written notes to

20 look at?

21 A. I can't remember exactly. I don't --

22 Q. Did you prepare notes for the book,

23 written notes?

24 A. Yes. Sometimes -- I mean, I had

25 some things I had written and some things we

Page 21

1 just talked about.

2 Q. Did you keep copies of your notes?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Do you know what happened to your

5 notes?

6 A. They were thrown away as I finished

7 with that part of the writing.

8 Q. You threw them away?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you shown a copy of what we

11 would call the rough draft of the book before it

12 was sent to the publisher?

13 A. There were many drafts, yes, that we

14 would keep reviewing.

15 Q. Who would prepare the drafts?

16 A. A typist, I think, or the editor,

17 perhaps. She kept a main manuscript going.

18 Q. A main file?

19 A. I am not sure how she did it, but

20 she would keep it.

21 Q. Were you given an opportunity to

22 review the final manuscript before it was sent to

23 the publisher?

24 A. I believe so. I believe so.

25 Q. Do you remember reviewing?

Page 22

1 A. Not specifically. I mean, there were

2 so many iterations, I can't remember exactly

3 which.

4 Q. When was the first time you had an

5 opportunity to read the book from beginning to

6 end as it was published?

7 MR. WOOD: After it was published?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: In the form in which

9 it was published.

10 MR. WOOD: Like the galleys?

11 MR. HOFFMAN: It could have been a

12 galley. I don't know at what point --

13 THE WITNESS: You mean the hardback

14 book?

15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) The hardback book,

16 yes.

17 A. Probably when it was completely

18 published in March of 2000.

19 Q. Did you see anything that looked like

20 what they call galleys?

21 A. I don't think I saw galleys.

22 Q. So the first time you actually were

23 able to read the book, then, is when it appeared

24 in hard cover in the actual bound, hard-covered

25 issue?

Page 23

1 A. Well, I read the manuscript. I don't

2 know if you call that the book.

3 Q. So there was a manuscript, a completed

4 manuscript that you were able to read before it

5 was sent to the printer; is that correct?

6 A. I believe so.

7 Q. Did you review it?

8 A. I believe I did.

9 Q. And did you look at portions of it

10 in terms of statements that were accurate or not

11 accurate?

12 A. Well, I primarily -- the way the book

13 is written, I speak, John speaks, I speak, John

14 speaks. And I was mainly concentrating on what I

15 had put in the book.

16 Q. Do you remember, in the book, whether

17 or not there is a theory of the crime that was

18 -- as you believed it may have been committed

19 talked about in the book, written about?

20 A. I am not sure what you mean.

21 Q. The book contains a theory of the

22 crime. Do you remember what the theory of the

23 crime was in the book?

24 MR. WOOD: Why don't you show her

25 what you are talking about in the book.

Page 24

1 THE WITNESS: I mean, the whole book

2 is --

3 MR. WOOD: There may be a number of

4 different theories that are discussed in whole or

5 in part.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to see

7 what she remembers.

8 MR. WOOD: We are not here to engage

9 in a memory contest about what is or is not in

10 the book. If you have a question about something

11 that is in the book, I think, fairly, you are

12 required to put it in front of her, give her the

13 opportunity to look at it, put it into context,

14 and then respond to your question.

15 So if there is something in the book,

16 be it theory or whatever, show her what you want

17 her to look at, and she will be glad to answer

18 your question.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to test her

20 memory right now.

21 MR. WOOD: We are not going to

22 engage in a memory contest of what is in the

23 book.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a memory

25 contest. I have a right to see what, if

Page 25

1 anything, Mrs. Ramsey currently remembers about

2 the theory of the crime.

3 MR. WOOD: That is a different

4 question. You are asking her about what is in the

5 book, and she is entitled, and you know she is

6 entitled, to see what you are referencing in the

7 book, put it into context, and then answer your

8 question.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, I am going

10 to withdraw the question.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you

12 to tell me what, if anything, you can remember

13 about the theory of the crime that you may have

14 developed over time.

15 A. Someone was in our home the night of

16 December 25th and murdered our daughter while we

17 slept.

18 Q. Is there anything more about that

19 theory that you remember or have developed?

20 A. Well, that is basically it. There

21 was someone who is not a member of our family in

22 our home that night, took JonBenet from her bed,

23 and murdered her.

24 Q. With respect to that theory of the

25 crime, is there anything else that you can

Page 26

1 remember about it?

2 MR. WOOD: What do you mean is there

3 anything else she can remember about it?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Remember about that

5 night as far as it leading to developing that

6 theory.

7 MR. WOOD: I am going to have to --

8 that is a question that is either so vague or so

9 broad -- you are asking her now to say, is there

10 anything she can remember about that night that

11 would lead to her developing that theory?

12 Why don't you ask her a specific

13 question, Darnay. That is too broad and too

14 vague.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: All right.

16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) What is it about

17 the events of that evening and the next day that

18 has led you to this theory of the crime?

19 A. I found a ransom note. I found my

20 daughter missing from her bedroom. And several

21 hours later, our daughter was found dead in our

22 home. That is pretty clear to make one draw the

23 conclusion that someone came into our home and

24 murdered her.

25 Q. And you don't feel it was a member

Page 27

1 of your own family; is that correct?

2 A. No, sir.

3 MR. WOOD: I think your answer is

4 really "yes, sir." "Is that correct" would

5 require a "yes" response, so that the record is

6 clear.

7 Don't we agree, Darnay?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, that is fine.

9 THE WITNESS: It was not a member of

10 my family.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to take

12 just a short break because I am going to go into

13 another area. I just wanted to sort of generally

14 establish it. So let's take a one- or two-minute

15 break. I know people can't hop up or whatever.

16 MR. WOOD: We don't mind moving.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: No need to. Just a

18 natural break.

19 MR. WOOD: Off the video, too?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

22 video record at 9:39.

23 (A recess was taken.)

24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

25 video record at 9:49.

Page 28

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, Lin, I

2 want to proceed when you are ready.

3 MR. WOOD: Absolutely. Go right

4 ahead.

5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Mrs. Ramsey,

6 I would like you to look at page 407 of the

7 paperback edition of your book, "the Death of

8 Innocence." I have highlighted a section I would

9 like you to read, which begins number 4 and then,

10 "The ransom note."

11 Could you read that, please, for the

12 record.

13 A. "4. The ransom note. Considered

14 earlier and throughout the book, the note was

15 written by the killer and remains an extremely

16 important clue. An adequate amount of handwriting

17 samples from the killer should conclusively tie

18 him to the long and rambling note."

19 Q. Mrs. Ramsey, do you still agree with

20 that statement?

21 A. I am not sure which statement.

22 Q. The statement you just read in your

23 book, do you still agree with it?

24 A. Well, it is my belief that whoever

25 wrote the ransom note probably had something to

Page 29

1 do with her murder. Is that what you are asking

2 me?

3 Q. Yes, I am. I just want to know --

4 I know this book was written a couple of years

5 ago, and I just want to determine whether it is

6 still your belief, that this statement is still

7 your belief, that you believe this statement to

8 be true today?

9 A. Yes, I believe that. Yes, I believe

10 that.

11 Q. Now I would like you to turn to page

12 145 of "the Death of Innocence," the paperback

13 edition of it, and I would like you to please

14 read out loud starting where it is highlighted "A

15 week and a half after the first of February."

16 If you could, read that, please.

17 A. "A week and a half after the first

18 of February, the Denver Post ran an interesting

19 observation on the handwritten ransom note that

20 Douglas had spoken about on Dateline. The paper

21 said: 'Leaving a handwritten document at the

22 scene of the crime, in most cases, is tantamount

23 to leaving one's calling card. Bradley and other

24 forensic document examiners say that it is nearly

25 impossible for a person to disguise handwriting so

Page 30

1 that an expert can't link a suspect to a

2 document, such as the note found in the Ramsey

3 home. The older a person is, the more automatic

4 and difficult it becomes to conceal the clues.

5 And the longer a document is, the harder it

6 becomes to disguise one's writing.'"

7 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with that

8 statement?

9 MR. WOOD: For clarification, does she

10 agree that that is what the Denver Post said, or

11 are you asking her --

12 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not asking her if

13 that is what the Denver Post said because they

14 are indicating in the book.

15 MR. WOOD: Right.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to know if

17 she agrees -- just because the statement is in

18 here doesn't necessarily mean she agrees with it.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would just like,

20 for clarification, do you agree with that

21 statement?

22 MR. WOOD: Or has any understanding

23 of who Bradley is, for example.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not really

25 concerned whether she knows who Bradley is. I

Page 31

1 just want to know if she agrees with the

2 statement that "leaving a handwritten document at

3 the scene of the crime in most cases is

4 tantamount to leaving one's calling card." And

5 also, the --

6 MR. WOOD: Do them one at a time.

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Start with that.

8 Do you agree with that statement?

9 A. Well, I have been told that this is

10 the ransom note of ransom notes, the longest that

11 people have ever seen, and that it is a lot of

12 information for discovering someone's handwriting,

13 so I don't know if it "is tantamount to leaving

14 a calling card."

15 Q. I was wondering why you had put this

16 statement in this book, if you don't agree with

17 it?

18 A. I didn't say I didn't agree with it.

19 MR. WOOD: I am not sure that is her

20 statement. Again, going back, looking in context

21 to who writes this.

22 THE WITNESS: This was something that

23 was in the newspaper.

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I know, but it was

25 included in the book for some purpose, and I am

Page 32

1 assuming, reading it -- and I don't want to make

2 an assumption, but I can only assume reading it

3 that it is put here because you agree with the

4 basic premise of the article, or at least the

5 basic premise of the section that is excerpted

6 for this.

7 MR. WOOD: What is the question?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want to know if

9 she agrees with the first sentence, "Leaving a

10 handwriting document at the scene of the crime in

11 most cases is tantamount to leaving one's calling

12 card."

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you agree with

14 that statement?

15 MR. WOOD: With all due respect, I

16 think she has given you an answer to that exact

17 question.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: I wasn't certain that

19 she had.

20 MR. WOOD: Let me make sure. I

21 don't want you to not get an answer.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I mean, it would be

23 consistent with the earlier statement on page 407

24 about "an extremely important clue."

25 MR. WOOD: I thought she did answer

Page 33

1 that. She said: "I had been told that this is

2 the ransom note of ransom notes, the longest that

3 people have seen, that it is a lot of information

4 for discovering someone's handwriting, so I don't

5 know if it is tantamount to leaving a calling

6 card." I mean, that is what she said.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, if she could say

8 yes or no, it would be very helpful.

9 MR. WOOD: That would be, but it

10 would only be if it were the only answer she

11 could give. I think she is entitled to give you

12 her full answer, including an explanation.

13 I think she told you she doesn't

14 disagree with it, but the use of the phrase

15 "leaving a calling card" she is not in the

16 position to comment on.

17 THE WITNESS: A calling card would

18 have been better because it would have had the

19 person's name, address, and phone number.

20 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I was curious as

21 to why this had been put in the book, if you

22 remember. Do you know why this statement was

23 included in the book, the one you just read,

24 "Leaving a handwritten document at the scene of a

25 crime"?

Page 34

1 A. Well, I don't remember exactly. It

2 has been a couple of years.

3 Q. If you remember.

4 A. Well, I don't remember exactly why we

5 put it in here. I believe this is a section

6 that John wrote, so you might want to ask him

7 that.

8 Q. Were you ever asked to give

9 handwriting exemplars at any time by anyone after

10 your daughter's death?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Can you tell me who asked you to do

13 that, not violating any attorney-client privilege?

14 A. The Boulder Police Department.

15 Q. Did anyone else ask you to give

16 handwriting exemplars besides the Boulder Police

17 Department?

18 A. I gave several of them. I believe

19 it all had to do with the Boulder Police

20 Department. Whether it was the CBI or --

21 Q. But nobody other than law enforcement

22 asked you to give them handwriting exemplars; is

23 that true?

24 A. I don't remember anyone else asking

25 me.

Page 35

1 Q. I just want to clarify. Do you

2 remember how many times you were asked to give

3 handwriting exemplars by the law enforcement

4 people, authorities? And I am assuming it is in

5 Colorado.

6 A. Yes. I -- five or six, I think.

7 Something like that.

8 Q. In the back of the book, Appendix A,

9 page 428 -- actually, you can identify it as 429.

10 It doesn't have 428 in the upper left-hand

11 corner. It is called "A Chronicle of Cooperation."

12 The paragraph that is second from the bottom,

13 there is an indication when handwriting samples

14 were given by John, and there are dates, and then

15 Patsy, and there are dates, and then Burke, and

16 there are dates.

17 Would you just review that and see if

18 that refreshes your recollection with respect to

19 the dates? Are those dates accurate or

20 substantially accurate, if you can remember?

21 A. I am sure they probably are.

22 Q. And I am counting them. There is a

23 date "December 28, January 4, February 28, April

24 12, and May 20." That is one, two, three, four

25 -- it looks like five.

Page 36

1 Is that what you remember --

2 A. That seems to be fairly --

3 Q. -- as to the number of times?

4 A. -- fairly accurate, yes.

5 Q. Were you ever given an explanation by

6 law enforcement authorities as to why they were

7 asking you to come in so many times to give

8 exemplars, why they needed you to give exemplars

9 over a period of five different dates?

10 A. I don't remember them really saying

11 why they needed more.

12 Q. Did anyone else, without telling me

13 what was actually said, give you a reason as to

14 why you were being asked for so many exemplars?

15 MR. WOOD: And here you are not to

16 give him, nor is he asking you to give him any

17 information about any discussion you had between

18 yourself and your attorneys, if there was any

19 such discussion. He is not entitled to know

20 that, and he is not asking you about that.

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was there anybody

22 else?

23 For instance, maybe Lou Smit may have

24 asked you, maybe somebody from Alex Hunter's

25 office might have asked you or told you or

Page 37

1 whatever, something that is not a privileged

2 communication between you and your attorneys, if

3 you remember.

4 A. No. Just every time they asked me

5 to do it, I willingly gave it.

6 Q. Now I am going to ask you about your

7 reaction to it. Were you surprised that you were

8 asked for so many exemplars, to come back five

9 times, in fact? Were you surprised by that?

10 A. Somewhat, yes.

11 Q. Were you concerned about that?

12 A. I was not concerned, particularly.

13 Q. Do you know if anybody at any time

14 expressed an opinion as to whether you were the

15 author of the ransom note while you were doing

16 this?

17 A. During the handwriting exemplar

18 process?

19 Q. Yes. When you were being asked to

20 give handwriting exemplars, did anybody in law

21 enforcement express the opinion that they thought

22 you were the ransom note writer?

23 A. I don't recall them ever saying that.

24 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody

25 ever expressed the opinion in front of you that

Page 38

1 John was the ransom note writer?

2 A. I never heard anyone say that.

3 Q. Now, what I am going to do is I need

4 some -- we are going to go through a little

5 housekeeping. I am sorry. I just have to do

6 this for purposes of laying foundations.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask you

8 to mark these as exhibits.

9 And, Lin, I am going to give you a

10 copy.

11 MR. WOOD: Okay.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: This is for

13 identification purposes.

14 Lin, if you want to look at that.

15 MR. WOOD: Is there a way to relate

16 this to the exhibits that we have --

17 MR. HOFFMAN: What I am going to do

18 is, basically, I would like to show these to Mrs.

19 Ramsey at this time and ask her in a foundational

20 way, one, whether she recognizes what she is

21 being shown, can she identify it, and can she

22 identify the handwriting.

23 MR. WOOD: Are these the exhibits

24 that are attached to the first set of --

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Page 39

1 MR. WOOD: Do you have them by

2 exhibit number so I can correlate?

3 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I don't. Right

4 now I am doing it in a particular order, which

5 doesn't relate to that. Whether these are

6 ultimately used or not is another matter,

7 but right now I would like to mark this as

8 Exhibit 1.

9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-1 was marked for

10 identification.)

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

12 going to show you a document that has been marked

13 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 for identification. I would

14 like you to look at it and take your time. I

15 am going to ask you if you recognize the

16 photograph.

17 MR. WOOD: Let me just say this for

18 the record, Darnay. I think you have given her

19 an enlarged copy of what was possibly one of the

20 exhibits to one of the reports that you filed

21 early in the case with respect to your mandatory

22 responses. And I think she has answered in

23 request for admissions to her best ability whether

24 she could decipher from those copies whether she

25 was the author of the handwriting.

Page 40

1 To the extent that you are giving her

2 the same exhibits but in a different form, either

3 larger or in color versus black and white, et

4 cetera, I just want to make sure that, if there

5 is any confusion down the road between her

6 ability to try to decipher it now and what she

7 looked at then, that that might be the

8 explanation.

9 So that is why I had asked if you

10 wanted to present her with the actual exhibits;

11 that would, I think, help us be able to look at

12 the same thing.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I basically want her to

14 be able to see what it is. I am looking for

15 content, not --

16 MR. WOOD: Not comparison with other

17 copies of those from other sources.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: I want her to indicate

19 whether she recognizes the photograph.

20 MR. WOOD: That is fair.

21 THE WITNESS: I think I have seen

22 this photograph before.

23 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Can you identify,

24 without naming anybody in the photograph, can you

25 identify any of the individuals in the photograph?

Page 41

1 A. Just JonBenet.

2 Q. I would like you to now look at the

3 handwriting below the photograph. Do you

4 recognize the handwriting?

5 A. Not particularly.

6 Q. You say "not particularly." You don't

7 recognize this as being your handwriting; is that

8 correct?

9 A. I don't remember writing it. Is that

10 what you mean? I mean, I don't know. I may

11 have, but --

12 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting as

13 being your handwriting?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. Now we are going to go to

16 another exhibit.

17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-2 was marked for

18 identification.)

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

20 would like you to examine a document I have given

21 you that has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 2

22 for identification and ask you if you recognize

23 any of the photographs in the document.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I am going to ask you if you

Page 42

1 recognize any of the handwriting in the document.

2 A. Recognize it as mine or someone else's

3 or just --

4 Q. I will go to the next question. Do

5 you recognize any of the handwriting as being

6 your handwriting?

7 A. Not particularly.

8 Q. So you couldn't say, with any degree

9 of certainty, that that was your handwriting?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Lin, I don't know what

13 you are doing with those.

14 MR. WOOD: You took the last one

15 back.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Sorry about

17 this. This is one of the more boring parts of

18 depositions.

19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-3 was marked for

20 identification.)

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

22 am going to ask you to look at Plaintiff's

23 Exhibit 3 marked for identification and ask you

24 whether or not you recognize this document.

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 43

1 Q. What do you recognize it to be?

2 A. An entry form for the Boulder

3 Christmas parade.

4 Q. Have you ever seen this entry form

5 before today?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell me when you have seen

8 it, if you remember?

9 A. Well, I obviously saw it to fill it

10 out.

11 Q. Okay. That was my next question.

12 Do you recognize the handwriting in this entry

13 form?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you

16 recognize it to be?

17 A. My handwriting.

18 Q. So all of the handwriting on both

19 pages is your handwriting; is that correct? I

20 mean, no one else --

21 A. Well, this on the second page is

22 pretty blurry, but I believe it is mine.

23 Q. So nobody at this event filled in

24 part of it for you?

25 A. No.

Page 44

1 Q. You filled this in completely

2 yourself; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Now I am going to show you another

5 document which I am going to have the reporter

6 mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 for identification.

7 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-4 was marked for

8 identification.)

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

10 am going to ask you to look at a document that

11 I handed you which has been marked Plaintiff's

12 Exhibit 4 for identification. I am going to ask

13 you whether or not you recognize this document.

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. I am going to ask you if you

16 recognize the handwriting on the document.

17 A. I recognize my signature.

18 Q. Do you recognize any other written

19 part of the document as being your handwriting?

20 A. It looks similar, but I can't say for

21 sure.

22 Q. So are you uncertain as to whether

23 the additional handwriting is yours or not,

24 outside of the signature?

25 A. I am uncertain.

Page 45

1 Q. Okay. Thank you.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

3 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 5

4 for identification.

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-5 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

8 am going to ask you to look at a document which

9 has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 for

10 identification. And I am going to ask you

11 whether or not you recognize it.

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. What do you recognize it to be?

14 A. It looks like a greeting written on

15 the inside of a Christmas card.

16 Q. Do you remember writing a Christmas

17 card like this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I am going to ask you whether or not

20 you can identify the handwriting.

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you

23 believe it to be?

24 A. Mine.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 46

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

2 reporter to please mark this document Plaintiff's

3 Exhibit 6 for identification. It is two pages, I

4 believe.

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-6 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to ask

8 you, Mrs. Ramsey, whether or not you can identify

9 the document that I have handed you, which is

10 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 for identification.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell me what the document is?

13 A. It is a handwritten note.

14 Q. Can you identify the handwriting?

15 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Now I am going to ask

18 the reporter to please mark this as Plaintiff's

19 Exhibit 7 for identification.

20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-7 was marked for

21 identification.)

22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

23 would like to know if you could identify the

24 document or, actually, the image or figure on

25 Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 marked for identification.

Page 47

1 A. No, I can't.

2 Q. I am going to ask you to look at the

3 handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the

4 handwriting.

5 A. This is such a bad copy. Do you

6 have the original?

7 Q. No, I don't. If you can't recognize

8 the handwriting, you simply say you cannot.

9 A. I cannot.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

12 court reporter to mark this document Plaintiff's

13 Exhibit 8 for identification.

14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-8 was marked for

15 identification.)

16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to

17 direct Mrs. Ramsey's attention to the writing that

18 looks like it is on a box that says "Ramsey

19 Xmas" and also, it looks like, some writing on

20 the lower right-hand side which just says

21 "Ramsey."

22 I am going to ask you to look at

23 that carefully, and I am going to ask her, first

24 of all, if she can identify to the best of her

25 ability what is in this photograph.

Page 48

1 A. It looks like pictures of boxes taken

2 through a window pane.

3 Q. Now, I am going to ask you if you

4 can recognize any of the handwriting.

5 A. This lower one may be mine, but I am

6 not sure.

7 Q. And the upper left, which says,

8 "Ramsey Xmas"?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. So you don't recognize it as being

11 your handwriting?

12 A. Not specifically, no.

13 Q. Thank you. Coming to the end.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like the

15 reporter to mark that as Plaintiff's Exhibit 9

16 for identification.

17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-9 was marked for

18 identification.)

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

20 going to ask you -- I am not going to even try

21 to ask you what you are looking at. I am going

22 to ask you if you can see any of the handwriting

23 in this document.

24 MR. WOOD: Is that an admission that

25 nobody can even determine what the object is?

Page 49

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, the objects would

2 be subject -- one looks like a box on the lower

3 part, but I am not going to ask Mrs. Ramsey to

4 determine it. I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey if

5 she can make out the handwriting. And if she

6 can, can she, with any degree of certainty, tell

7 me if she recognizes any of the handwriting.

8 THE WITNESS: It is pretty hard to

9 tell.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can simply say

11 no or you are not certain.

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Thank you.

14 A. If I can see the original, maybe.

15 Q. I understand, but based on this

16 document, you are not able to determine?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the

20 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10

21 for identification.

22 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-10 was marked for

23 identification.)

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, what I

25 am showing you is a series of letters. I am

Page 50

1 not identifying their source. I am just simply

2 showing you a series of letters. I would like

3 you to look at them carefully.

4 Again, this is Plaintiff's Exhibit 10

5 for identification.

6 Can you, without knowing the source or

7 where these letters are from, identify any of

8 them?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Now, I would like you to also look

11 at the letters and ask me if you see any

12 similarities in the way in which these letters

13 are written. And we will just start from the

14 bottom. Looking at the B.

15 A. Ask you if I see any similarities?

16 Q. No. I am going to ask you to

17 comment on whether you see any similarities in

18 the handwriting.

19 MR. WOOD: Let me just ask you,

20 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document

21 examiner.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want her

23 personal observation.

24 MR. WOOD: We don't know what

25 alterations have been done to these documents. I

Page 51

1 know where these documents came from. They came

2 from one of your experts.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: I would prefer you

4 don't identify the source --

5 MR. WOOD: Why not? She is entitled

6 to be --

7 MR. HOFFMAN: -- for the purpose of

8 this.

9 MR. WOOD: We are not here to play

10 games.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no.

12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, Darnay.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --

14 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, please.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, you can't

16 have a standing objection where you basically

17 counsel, give information to your client in your

18 objection, which is what you are doing right now.

19 I would like you to stop it.

20 MR. WOOD: Darnay.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: I have a right to show

22 her a document. For all you know, I am trying

23 to test her perception. You don't know what I

24 am doing in this.

25 MR. WOOD: Her perception --

Page 52

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying that

2 this means anything. I am asking her to look at

3 these letters, ask her if she recognizes any of

4 them, and then after doing that, asking her if

5 she can perceive any similarities in these

6 letters. That is all. Just as a lay person,

7 her personal observation. And I have a right to

8 do that. And I am going to ask her to do it.

9 MR. WOOD: I am not --

10 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have to

11 identify the source. This could be an eye chart,

12 for all you know.

13 MR. WOOD: Darnay --

14 MR. HOFFMAN: For all you know, I am

15 testing her perception.

16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, it is not an eye

17 chart. It is a document that you --

18 MR. HOFFMAN: No, it is not. Don't

19 identify the document, Mr. Wood.

20 MR. WOOD: Are you going to let me

21 finish, Darnay?

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going

23 to identify --

24 MR. WOOD: Let's take a break.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going

Page 53

1 to have a standing objection.

2 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a

3 break now, and then I'll come back. And when I

4 get a chance to make my statement on the record

5 to perfect the record, we will start again. But

6 if are you not going to give me that fundamental

7 right, then we are not going to start again,

8 Darnay. Do you understand me? Because you are

9 not the judge.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop

11 the deposition --

12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop

14 the --

15 MR. WOOD: If you don't stop

16 interrupting me, we are going to have to stop.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I have to interrupt you

18 if you are, in fact, going to give your client

19 information that you are not supposed to give

20 your client while I am asking her a specific

21 question, which is what you are trying to do

22 right now, at least in my opinion.

23 MR. WOOD: No, I am not.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, you are.

25 MR. WOOD: You don't know what I am

Page 54

1 trying to do, because you won't let me do it.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: You are trying to

3 identify the source of this, and I don't want you

4 to do that for the purposes of this question.

5 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a

6 break now, and when I have the ability to make

7 my record without interruption and instruction

8 from you --

9 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like you to

10 make the colloquy.

11 MR. WOOD: You are not going to stop

12 interrupting; are you?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not going to

14 basically let you give your client information in

15 a standing objection.

16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, if I make

17 a statement on the record that is inappropriate,

18 you may take that up with Judge Carnes, and Judge

19 Carnes can determine whether I have

20 inappropriately instructed my client through an

21 objection. But you are not the judge, and you

22 are not going to make that decision today. You

23 have the right to say what you want to on this

24 record. I have that right, also.

25 So when you decide that we are going

Page 55

1 to play on that level playing field, let's get

2 started again. But you are not going to sit

3 here and be the judge and tell me what I am

4 going to do or not do, whether you like it or

5 agree with it or not.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --

7 MR. WOOD: So we are now going to go

8 off the record and take a break.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, for the

10 purposes of -- before we go off the record and

11 take a break, I foresaw this as a possible

12 stumbling block or speed bump, and as a result,

13 Evan Altman was kind enough to call Judge Carnes'

14 office, and she is willing, in a phone call, to

15 make an immediate ruling on whether or not what I

16 am asking Mrs. Ramsey to do is proper and whether

17 or not your objection is proper. She is in her

18 office. She is available for an immediate

19 conference.

20 MR. WOOD: I have not been allowed

21 to make my statement. And if we want to address

22 with Judge Carnes at this point --

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

24 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. If the issue

25 to be addressed with Judge Carnes is whether I am

Page 56

1 allowed to make an objection without interruption

2 from you, then I will be happy to take that up

3 with Judge Carnes.

4 If we are going to take up an

5 objection of mine with Judge Carnes, I think I

6 fairly ought to have the right to state it on

7 the record.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: But I would like you

9 to make the statement to Judge Carnes before you

10 make a statement in front of your client on the

11 record basically notifying your client of

12 precisely what it is that I am doing with respect

13 to this, which I don't want you to do.

14 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are

15 doing with this. I am not trying to make a

16 representation of that.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's talk to Judge

18 Carnes. Because we went through enough trouble

19 to establish, to call her office yesterday and

20 see if she was available for a conference,

21 because I foresaw this problem precisely coming

22 up.

23 MR. WOOD: I yet to understand what

24 you want to take up with Judge Carnes.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's call her. I

Page 57

1 will tell her. Quite frankly, I am going to ask

2 her whether or not -- I am going to have you

3 state your objection that you are going to give

4 on the record to her on the phone, and we are

5 going to find out whether or not she thinks it

6 is proper for you to make that objection.

7 And then if she rules it is proper

8 to make it in that form, you can make it in

9 that form.

10 MR. WOOD: So you want me to state

11 my objection for the first time on the phone with

12 Judge Carnes?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: That is correct.

14 MR. WOOD: So you are going to call

15 Judge Carnes -- excuse me.

16 You are going to call Judge Carnes to

17 address with her an objection that you think is

18 inappropriate that I haven't even been allowed to

19 make yet?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: No. You started to

21 make it, and it was clear from your making it

22 what you were trying to do, which is basically

23 make the equivalent of a standing -- you were

24 trying to give your client information improperly

25 in order to influence her answer.

Page 58

1 MR. WOOD: That is just pure bunk,

2 Darnay.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Sorry, but that is what

4 I see it to be. That is why we have Judge

5 Carnes waiting by the phone for us.

6 MR. WOOD: If you have an issue to

7 take up with Judge Carnes, you have a right to

8 do whatever you want to do. I don't have an

9 issue with Judge Carnes yet.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, you may have it

11 if you don't get on the phone with us and talk

12 to her.

13 MR. WOOD: I am going to participate.

14 I am not going to allow you to ex parte a

15 conversation with Judge Carnes.

16 MR. HOFFMAN: No judge would allow an

17 ex parte communication. You know better than

18 that.

19 MR. WOOD: Why don't we define, so

20 we can read the record to her, exactly what the

21 controversy is at the moment because I still

22 don't understand it because I haven't been allowed

23 to state an objection. I might not even have an

24 objection.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, in fact, I would

Page 59

1 like you to read back what you were about to

2 state as an objection, in fact.

3 MR. WOOD: Okay. I started off and

4 said -- you said, the question to Ms. Ramsey:

5 "I am going to ask you to comment on

6 whether you see any similarities in the

7 handwriting, and that is on this Exhibit 10,

8 without identifying it for her."

9 And I said: "Let me just ask you,

10 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document

11 examiner.

12 "Mr. Hoffman: I just want her

13 personal observation.

14 "Mr. Wood: We don't know what

15 alterations have been done to these documents. I

16 know where these documents came from. They came

17 from one of your excerpts.

18 "Mr. Hoffman:" --

19 MR. HOFFMAN: That is the point at

20 which you are starting to give her information.

21 MR. WOOD: Excuse me.

22 "Mr. Hoffman: I would prefer you

23 don't identify the source.

24 "Mr. Wood: Why not? She is

25 entitled to," and then you interrupted, and I

Page 60

1 don't think we ever got any further.

2 MR. HOFFMAN: This is the area

3 that --

4 MR. WOOD: So the question is whether

5 or not, when you give her a document, is she

6 entitled to know the source of the document

7 before she answers questions about it --

8 MR. HOFFMAN: No.

9 MR. WOOD: -- let's put that issue

10 before Judge Carnes.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Yup.

12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

13 video record.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: We are going to read

15 that statement. That is what I am objecting to,

16 what you are doing there. So we will read that

17 to Judge Carnes.

18 MR. WOOD: I think I understand what

19 we want to do with Judge Carnes, and that is to

20 ask her, when you question her about a document,

21 if she is entitled to know what the document is.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: No. A particular type

23 of document. Okay? Not all documents.

24 MR. WOOD: She is entitled to know

25 what the document is.

Page 61

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

2 video record at 10:24.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: And I would like to

4 have this colloquy with the judge so that we

5 don't, basically, just sort of undermine the whole

6 purpose of this, which is to keep you from giving

7 information to your client. If your client is

8 present during this colloquy, it defeats the whole

9 purpose. Okay.

10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, I don't know what

11 you are up to, and the game here --

12 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a game, Mr.

13 Wood.

14 MR. WOOD: It is not a game. I

15 think if you put a document in front of my

16 client, she is entitled to know what --

17 MR. HOFFMAN: This is what the

18 document is. It is a series of letters. Any

19 person can see what this is.

20 MR. WOOD: It is a series of letters

21 that is --

22 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all. I asked

23 her to look at it, asked her if she recognized

24 any of it, and then I asked her if she could

25 make any comment on whether she recognizes any

Page 62

1 similarities in the lettering of it.

2 That is all. It is a very simple

3 thing. I don't have to identify the source or

4 anything else.

5 MR. WOOD: Let me address this issue

6 with Mr. Rawls off the record, and we will come

7 back and see if we can solve the problem in a

8 different fashion.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

10 (A recess was taken.)

11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

12 video record at 10:33.

13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am

14 going to show you a document that has been marked

15 Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. And I

16 would like you to look at the document. Please

17 look at it carefully.

18 What you -- this document, for the

19 record, contains eight letters that are side by

20 side vertically on the page. The letter D, what

21 looks like the letter S, what looks like letters

22 R and O, what looks like an N, what looks like

23 an O, what looks like an exclamation point, what

24 looks like a G, and what looks like a B.

25 I am going to ask you, Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 63

1 if you can identify any of these letters as being

2 your handwriting.

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Now I am going to ask you to look at

5 these letters and tell me -- in fact, I withdraw

6 the question.

7 I would like you to look at the

8 lower letter B, what looks like could be a letter

9 B at the bottom.

10 MR. WOOD: Left or right? There is

11 a mark with some sort of funny mark over it.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: That looks like a

13 little hat.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Those letters, for

15 the purposes of this discussion, look like they

16 might be the letter B. I am going to ask you

17 whether you see any similarity in the two

18 letters, any visual similarity, you as a lay

19 person, not as an expert, just looking at it

20 visually, do you see any similarities?

21 MR. WOOD: And if I might have my

22 objection for the record --

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, at this point

24 please.

25 MR. WOOD: -- is simply that I

Page 64

1 object to the form of the question. I do not

2 believe it is appropriate to ask a lay person a

3 question that goes to what you might believe to

4 be a question document issue from an expert,

5 particularly when you have not identified the

6 source of the writings before the witness, you

7 have not identified in answer whether these

8 documents have been in any way altered, blown up,

9 enlarged, positioned differently. So I object to

10 the form of the question for those reasons.

11 You may answer the question.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Also, for the purposes,

13 I would like to state that this answer would not

14 be used for any evidentiary purpose, realizing

15 that there is no proper foundation as to source,

16 as to how these letters came to be what they

17 are. But I will just say one thing for the

18 record, that lay people are, under Article 9 of

19 the Federal Rules of Evidence, are occasionally

20 allowed to identify handwriting as lay people.

21 Frequently, letters are shown to lay

22 people, and they are allowed to authenticate

23 handwriting to that degree, if they have

24 familiarity, which is one of the reasons why

25 I asked you if you were familiar with any of

Page 65

1 the letters.

2 MR. WOOD: And I did not object when

3 you asked her whether she believed that to be her

4 handwriting.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all I am

6 asking.

7 MR. WOOD: But now you are asking

8 her whether there is similarity from a lay

9 perspective, and I will accept your stipulation

10 that you will not use that answer for any

11 evidentiary purpose.

12 And with that stipulation, you may

13 answer the question.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you

15 to look at the letter B and tell me if those Bs

16 look at all similar to you.

17 A. Well, they are both lower case Bs.

18 Q. Is there anything about the Bs that

19 to you looks similar beside the fact they are

20 lower case? The way they are drawn?

21 A. No, not particularly.

22 Q. I am going to ask you to look above

23 the letter that we identified as being B at what

24 looks like it could be a G. I am going to ask

25 you to look at the G. I am going to ask you

Page 66

1 whether you see any similarities between the Gs

2 and what those similarities are.

3 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.

5 THE WITNESS: Well, they are both

6 lower case G. They are both more of the same

7 size than the Bs are.

8 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is there anything

9 -- what about the way in which what looks like

10 could be described as a tail with the G, is

11 there any similarity with respect to that?

12 A. It swings to the left.

13 Q. Do they look similar, the tails to

14 the G?

15 A. Somewhat. I mean, a G, you make a G

16 with the tail to the left. Is that what you

17 mean?

18 Q. Those look similar, like similar

19 tails?

20 MR. WOOD: You are talking about --

21 well, again, I think she answered your question.

22 THE WITNESS: One is squiggly, and

23 one is smoother. But, I mean, it depends on how

24 many things you want to --

25 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just looking for

Page 67

1 whatever points of similarity that you, as a lay

2 person --

3 A. I would say they are both similar in

4 size.

5 MR. WOOD: Or dissimilar, in fairness.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Or dissimilar.

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can make

8 whatever visual observations you want about it.

9 I simply want your reaction.

10 A. The one on the right is more shaky,

11 it looks like.

12 Q. What about the one on the left?

13 A. It is not as shaky. And the one on

14 the right has a little swoop up on the tail, and

15 the one on the left does not.

16 The one on the left has a thicker

17 circle for the part of the G than the one on

18 the right.

19 Q. Now I am going to ask you to --

20 before I -- withdraw that question.

21 Do you have any other observations,

22 similarities or dissimilarities, that you would

23 like to express?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I am going to ask you to look to

Page 68

1 what looks like exclamation points, and I am

2 going to ask you if you see any points of

3 similarity or dissimilarity.

4 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.

6 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: One is thick. One is

8 thin. One has a bigger dot than the other.

9 That is fat. That is little.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Anything about the

11 slope or angle or anything else that is similar

12 or dissimilar?

13 A. I don't know what "slope or angle"

14 means.

15 Q. The way in which it is going up and

16 down.

17 A. Well, that is how you make an

18 exclamation point is straight down with a dot

19 under it.

20 Q. Do they look similar or dissimilar

21 with respect to how vertical they are?

22 A. Well, the one on the left is

23 squigglier and leans at the top a little bit.

24 Q. Any other similarities or

25 dissimilarities, before I move to the next one?

Page 69

1 A. I don't think they look alike.

2 Q. The next object or letters look like

3 they might be Os, the letter O. Or they could

4 be a zero from a number. But in any case, a

5 zero or an O.

6 MR. WOOD: Or it could be even an

7 attempt to make a Q.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be.

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) But you can

10 identify it any way you would like, Mrs. Ramsey.

11 And please point out any similarities or

12 dissimilarities that you see.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, the same

14 stipulation.

15 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation. Thank

16 you.

17 THE WITNESS: I don't think they look

18 a thing alike.

19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So you would say

20 they are just dissimilar. Would you point out

21 their dissimilarities?

22 A. The dissimilarities?

23 Q. Yes. The dissimilarities.

24 A. One is large. One is small. One is

25 really heavy and feathered, kind of, and one is

Page 70

1 smoother.

2 Q. Any other similarities or

3 dissimilarities before I move on that you would

4 like to make?

5 A. They both have an opening in the

6 middle.

7 Q. All right. The hole in the doughnut?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I would like you to look up to the

10 next letter. Now, that can be an N. That

11 could be a truncated R. It is hard to say. I

12 would like you to look at that and just tell me

13 what similarities or dissimilarities you see

14 between the two.

15 MR. WOOD: It could be an N, too.

16 THE WITNESS: It could be a pi.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be. For all we

18 know, it is a little horse or something that is

19 truncated, or poodle, actually.

20 THE WITNESS: A poodle?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: One of those show

22 poodles.

23 MR. WOOD: I am not seeing the

24 poodle here, Darnay.

25 THE WITNESS: This is a psych test.

Page 71

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Rorschach for attorneys.

2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) If you could, look

3 at that, those two letters.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: With the same -- Lin,

5 what is it, the same stip?

6 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation.

7 THE WITNESS: One is shorter than the

8 other one. The one on the right is shorter than

9 the one on the left. The one on the left has

10 like a little triangle thing over the top of it.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I want to draw

12 your attention to the fact that they seem to

13 merge. There seems to be -- whatever it is, it

14 seems like one thing is running into another, or

15 there is something hanging off of it. It is an

16 awkward looking letter. It could be an R and an

17 O. It could be any other number of

18 configurations.

19 A. Which one are we looking at? Are

20 you looking at this one?

21 Q. Oh, no. I am sorry. Are we still

22 at the poodle? I thought we were going to

23 move on after the poodle.

24 MR. WOOD: I thought we were still

25 at the poodle.

Page 72

1 THE WITNESS: I never saw a poodle,

2 for the record.

3 MR. WOOD: Neither did I. That is

4 why I am staying there.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Not going to go there;

6 right?

7 THE WITNESS: So you are at the

8 third one down now?

9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Before I finish

10 that, I want to give you the opportunity, do you

11 have any other observation between similarity or

12 dissimilarity between the --

13 A. The little pi one?

14 Q. Yeah, the little pi.

15 A. I mean pi, like a Greek letter pi,

16 pi R squared.

17 Q. Now we will move to the next

18 configuration, whatever that is. I see it as an

19 R and an O, but that is just the way I look at

20 it. I would like you to tell me what you see

21 and similarities and dissimilarities between the

22 letter.

23 MR. WOOD: Same stip?

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stip.

25 THE WITNESS: I just -- that doesn't

Page 73

1 look like anything in the alphabet that I have

2 ever seen. I mean, it doesn't look like a

3 letter to me.

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Fair enough.

5 Any specific dissimilarities besides it

6 just doesn't look like a letter between the two

7 non --

8 A. Well, the one on the right seems to

9 be heavier and has a little piece sticking out

10 the left side. And the one on the left has a

11 little bird over the top of it or something mark.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. It looks like they were made with

14 different weights of pencil or something.

15 Q. If you have no further observations,

16 we will move to the next letter, what looks like

17 it could be an S.

18 A. Or it looks like it could be a 5.

19 Q. It could be a 5, too. Any

20 similarities or dissimilarities between the two?

21 A. The one on the left is larger than

22 the one on the right. The one on the right

23 looks more like an S than the one on the left.

24 The one on the left is more circular, kind of,

25 on the bottom. The one on the right is -- the

Page 74

1 bottom portion looks more angular.

2 MR. WOOD: We have the same stip on

3 this?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulations.

5 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Any other

6 observations of either similarities or

7 dissimilarities before I move on, Mrs. Ramsey?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I will ask you to look at the top

10 and final one, what I would identify as a D, but

11 that doesn't mean it is a D. I would like you

12 to look at that and tell me what similarities or

13 dissimilarities that you see there.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Lin, of course, we

15 have the same stip.

16 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: The left one looks like

18 an A to me, and the right one looks like a D.

19 It looks like maybe a shaky or older person might

20 have written it. Kind of squiggly.

21 This one has a higher -- the one on

22 the right has a higher stick on the side than

23 the one on the left.

24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Right.

25 A. And the open space, the doughnut hole

Page 75

1 is bigger on the one on the right than the left.

2 I don't think they look alike.

3 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

4 A. They look like two different letters

5 to me.

6 Q. Thank you for putting up with that

7 exercise.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, thank

9 you also.

10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You remember earlier

11 I had you read about the handwriting from your

12 book. And I would say that maybe we both concede

13 that the handwriting is an important part of the

14 evidence in this crime.

15 MR. WOOD: She can speak for herself,

16 but we are not going to have her speaking for

17 you. Concessions are one thing. She has answered

18 your questions about that with respect to her

19 belief.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: I am just using that

21 foundationally to move on --

22 MR. LIN: That's okay. I wanted to

23 make sure.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: -- to move on so that

25 there is no question why I am moving into a

Page 76

1 particular area.

2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) It goes to the

3 issue of why Mr. Wolf is here in this lawsuit

4 with respect to some elements of it, why in the

5 complaint there is what may appear to you to be

6 an extremely unfair accusation or representation

7 of you as author of the ransom note, as the

8 person who killed her daughter, or whatever.

9 And a lot of this is to try and

10 determine the degree to which the handwriting

11 experts that Mr. Wolf is using in this case can

12 accurately determine whether you are, in fact, the

13 author of the ransom note or not, which is part

14 of why we have been doing this.

15 I just want to show you something

16 that is -- I just want you to look at it. It,

17 again, is why, so to speak, why --

18 I would like you to mark this as

19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 11. I am going to show this.

20 Now, I am not making any

21 representations in this document as to whether, in

22 fact, its submission means anything other than

23 this was prepared by two handwriting experts.

24 This document is not being submitted to prove the

25 truth of anything in the document.

Page 77

1 So if you could, mark that.

2 Lin, we will stipulate to that effect.

3 Would you mark this document, please,

4 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 11.

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-11 was marked for

6 identification.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I

8 am going to tell you that that document, along

9 with reports, handwriting reports, were prepared

10 by document examiners Cina Wong and David Leadman.

11 And other handwriting was prepared -- other

12 handwriting was used in the form of the police

13 exemplars that were given to my office by Mr.

14 Wood pursuant to discovery requests.

15 And those documents are, without a

16 doubt, your handwriting because they were

17 identified by Mr. Wood as being the handwriting

18 exemplars that you personally gave to law

19 enforcement in Colorado at their request during

20 that five-day period.

21 Now, the problem for Mr. Wolf in this

22 case is the fact that not one of the experts --

23 Cina Wong, David Leadman, an expert known as

24 Gideon Epstein, Larry F. Siegler, and an expert

25 known as Don Lacey have all identified you as the

Page 78

1 ransom note writer. It is not a close call, as

2 far as they are concerned. They have identified

3 you. One of them, in fact, said, without doubt

4 you are the author of the ransom note.

5 So in order to be certain that they

6 are, in fact, correct in what they are looking at

7 as examples of your handwriting, I wanted you to

8 look at some of the documents that I gave you.

9 Now I want you to look at the document there and

10 see why, in fact, this, the issue of your

11 authorship, is such a problem.

12 MR. WOOD: Do you have a question?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

14 MR. WOOD: Let's ask the question.

15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Mrs. Ramsey,

16 did you write the ransom note?

17 MR. WOOD: Before you answer that, I

18 want to object to the form of the question. And

19 I want to specifically object to each and every

20 one of the prefatory comments with respect to

21 that question which started off a long time ago,

22 where you said: "-- to move on, so there was no

23 question why I am moving into a particular area."

24 "By Mr. Hoffman: It goes to the

25 issue of why Mr. Wolf is here in this lawsuit"

Page 79

1 -- beginning at that point down through and

2 including everything except for your stipulation,

3 which we will accept.

4 I want to move to strike all of the

5 prefatory comments from that beginning down

6 through where you said and ended, "Now I want you

7 to look at the document there and see why, in

8 fact, this, the question of your authorship, I

9 believe, is a problem."

10 All of those are improper as to form.

11 I move to strike each and every one of them with

12 the exception of your stipulation. I also want

13 to tell you that I was very courteous in letting

14 you sit here and, in effect, lecture my client.

15 That is your one and only lecture, Mr. Hoffman.

16 You are here to ask questions.

17 Now, your question, as I understand

18 it, if you would like to restate it, is, Did

19 Patsy Ramsey write the ransom note. Is that the

20 question?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, it is.

22 MR. WOOD: Why don't you restate that

23 because I don't think the other question isn't

24 worth the paper it is written on or the time you

25 have taken up to ask it because it is totally

Page 80

1 improper as to its form.

2 Now, ask her a question.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: First of all, I am

4 going to respond to your ad hominem attack.

5 MR. WOOD: It is not an ad hominem

6 attack.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: It is an ad hominem

8 attack, and it is done for the purposes

9 grandstanding, which, you know, seems to be the

10 way you are operating, sir.

11 MR. LIN: Take that up with Judge

12 Carnes. Why don't you just ask your question.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I am going to

14 respond to your ad hominem colloquy, which was,

15 in effect, an attack on me.

16 I was not lecturing Mrs. Ramsey.

17 And, Mrs. Ramsey, I apologize if I --

18 MR. WOOD: You don't have to respond

19 to that.

20 Do you have a question?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, Mr. Wood. I am

22 going to respond to your ad hominem attack, which

23 is what I consider it to be.

24 The fact is, I was not lecturing Mrs.

25 Ramsey. I was explaining to Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 81

1 prefatory to asking her a question which could be

2 regarded as very insensitive, which is simply, Did

3 you write the ransom note?, as to why I was

4 asking that question.

5 And, quite frankly, I don't think it

6 was improper of me to show a certain sensitivity

7 to a mother whose daughter has died rather

8 brutally.

9 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, you have

10 not shown this family any sensitivity since March

11 of 1997.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: That's not --

13 MR. WOOD: Let me stop you here.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: That's not before --

15 MR. WOOD: Let me stop you here.

16 No, sir. Let me stop you here.

17 I am not going to sit here and have

18 you go back and forth and talk with my client or

19 lecture my client. You are here under the

20 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to ask questions.

21 I have the right to make an objection. If you

22 deem my objection to be an ad hominem attack,

23 take it up with Judge Carnes.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same here.

25 MR. WOOD: I believe my objection is

Page 82

1 100 percent good.

2 Now, ask your question, let's get

3 answers, and let's move on. We don't need the

4 back-and-forth every time I make an objection.

5 Okay. Please, let's get going.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: You are responsible, to

7 some degree, for the back-and-forth.

8 Quite frankly, under the Federal

9 Rules, I don't think you have the right to

10 interfere and try to control my deposition.

11 MR. WOOD: I have the right to make

12 an objection, I did make an objection, and I

13 asked you to state your question.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: But not an attack on

15 counsel, which is, in fact, what this was. This

16 was an ad hominem attack. You characterized what

17 I was doing with your client as lecturing her.

18 MR. WOOD: I think the record will

19 speak for itself.

20 MR. HOFFMAN: And also, I think you

21 spoke outside of anything that was going on here,

22 which was to conduct that you considered to be

23 improper on my part outside of this deposition.

24 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are

25 talking about now.

Page 83

1 MR. HOFFMAN: You just made a

2 reference -- you can read it back -- to my lack

3 of sensitivity to the Ramsey family in general.

4 MR. WOOD: You are the one making

5 representations on the record about being

6 concerned.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: No. I am not making

8 representations. I am explaining.

9 MR. WOOD: You are wasting all of

10 our time now.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: No. This is my time.

12 MR. WOOD: Okay. If you want to

13 waste it.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: This is my deposition

15 time, and I am going to make a record responding

16 to your ad hominem attack on counsel.

17 MR. WOOD: Why don't you go ahead

18 and make that record.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: I just have been making

20 it. I have been making it.

21 MR. WOOD: When you are through, she

22 will come back and she will answer questions.

23 You don't have to sit here and listen

24 to this, Mrs. Ramsey.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: If she doesn't want to,

Page 84

1 that is fine.

2 MR. WOOD: You don't have to. You

3 can take a break, and you can go ahead and make

4 your response. And when you have a question, we

5 will bring her back in here, and we will answer

6 all your questions that are properly formed.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: All right. What we

8 will do is this, I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey

9 a very simple question.

10 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, did

12 you write the ransom note that was discovered by

13 yourself on December 26, 1996, at your home?

14 A. No, sir, I did not.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you.

16 Now, at this point, I think we will

17 take a break. I think this would be an

18 appropriate time to take a break. Thank you.

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

20 video record at 10:55.

21 (A recess was taken.)

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Just for the purposes

23 of taking up briefly before we left off, I

24 believe Mr. Wood made a motion to strike or will

25 do so with respect to that, and I just want to

Page 85

1 formally say that I would object and I do object

2 to any motion to strike any of the material he

3 referred to earlier. That is all. I simply want

4 to be on record as objecting to that. And that

5 is all.

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ready to go on the

7 video record?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, I want to put that

9 on the video record. Sorry.

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the

11 video record at 11:07.

12 MR. HOFFMAN: At this point, I would

13 like to move on to another topic area, but just

14 for the purposes of making a record, Mr. Wood

15 earlier in the deposition said that he was going

16 to object to or asked to strike statements that I

17 had made prefatory to a question that I asked

18 Mrs. Ramsey concerning the authorship of the

19 ransom note. And just for the record, I object

20 to any attempt to have that stricken from the

21 record. That is all I want to say with respect

22 to that.

23 Mr. Wood, if you want to add anything

24 to that.

25 MR. WOOD: Next question.

Page 86

1 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now I am just

2 going to go into -- I am going to ask for some

3 clarification of things that are in the book,

4 things that I didn't understand.

5 I am going to turn your attention to

6 page 378. It is chapter -- in fact, I can let

7 you look at that. There are two statements

8 there. In fact, Mrs. Ramsey, if you will just

9 give me your book, I will just quickly highlight

10 it. I am sorry about not having done this

11 beforehand.

12 All right. I would like you to read

13 the highlighted portions on page 378 in your book

14 "the Death of Innocence." That is the paperback

15 edition.

16 A. "The Boulder grand jury said no to an

17 indictment."

18 Q. And then the next statement that I

19 highlighted.

20 A. "The grand jury's secret decision."

21 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as

22 to whether or not the grand jury did, in fact,

23 make a decision based on that statement?

24 A. Well, the district attorney, I

25 believe, made a public statement that said there

Page 87

1 would not be an indictment.

2 Q. There is a reference here to the

3 grand jury's secret decision. Do you have any

4 knowledge of a secret decision by the grand jury,

5 any personal knowledge? Are you referring to

6 that?

7 A. Well, I think all of the grand jury

8 information is under wraps or under seal or

9 something.

10 Q. But do you know whether or not the

11 grand jury, in fact, made a decision in your

12 case?

13 A. Just going from what the district

14 attorney said, that there was no indictment.

15 Q. Okay. But this doesn't indicate --

16 the reason I am asking you this question is --

17 withdraw.

18 Is Patrick -- is it Patrick Furman,

19 was he an attorney of yours at one point?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Furman made a

22 statement that was published in the Boulder papers

23 to the effect that there was a rumor that the

24 grand jury had taken a straw poll and had decided

25 not to indict?

Page 88

1 MR. WOOD: Object to the form of the

2 question in that I think you have inadvertently,

3 perhaps, made reference to the wrong lawyer; but

4 if you have a statement to show her, that might

5 be helpful.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have that

7 statement. I am just asking her if she has

8 heard that.

9 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of a

10 statement by Mr. Furman in the paper.

11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Then I will ask

12 you, by any of your attorneys --

13 A. No, I am not.

14 Q. -- to the effect that the grand jury

15 -- that there was a rumor that the grand jury

16 had taken a secret straw poll and had decided or

17 voted not to indict?

18 MR. WOOD: You are talking about

19 public statements, not anything attorneys may have

20 said to her?

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) No. No attorney.

22 I don't want you to reveal anything that is an

23 attorney/client.

24 A. No, I am not aware of any such

25 statement.

Page 89

1 Q. So the statement "The grand jury's

2 secret decision" is not referring to any personal

3 knowledge that you have about what went on in the

4 grand jury room with respect to any decision to

5 indict or not indict; is that correct?

6 A. I think that adjective was used just

7 referring to grand jury as a whole does

8 everything behind closed doors.

9 Q. So it is just a figure of speech; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Actually, I did not write this

12 section. John wrote this. So you might want to

13 ask him that question.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 Now, there is an incident in the book

16 on page 191 which you might remember. It is

17 fairly lengthy. I just want you to review it.

18 I am not asking you to read it. It involves

19 the alarm system that apparently failed when you

20 came home. I think you were in your home in

21 Charlevoix. Is that it?

22 It is the next-to-last paragraph on

23 191. If you could, just look at that to refresh

24 your memory generally.

25 A. Where it says, "John put in an alarm

Page 90

1 system"?

2 Q. System, yes.

3 MR. WOOD: And you can read anything

4 you need to to put that into context.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Do you remember

8 that incident?

9 A. About putting the alarm system in?

10 Q. No. That incident where -- no.

11 Your feelings with respect to security and

12 whatever. It is not an incident.

13 I am going to refer to another part

14 of the book in a minute. Just simply your state

15 of mind in security systems.

16 A. I guess I am unclear about what you

17 are asking me.

18 Q. What I am going to ask you is this:

19 Do you know whether or not -- first of all, when

20 you were living in Boulder at the time of the

21 death of your daughter, did you have a security

22 system in your home?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. Was that a security system that you

25 used at the time you went out that night,

Page 91

1 December 25th, as you would explain it in your

2 book? When you went out visiting people, did you

3 have the security alarm on that night?

4 A. No, we did not.

5 Q. When you moved to Atlanta, did you

6 install a security system in your homes, any of

7 them?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. Did you have a security system in the

10 home that has been identified as the Atlanta --

11 not mansion, but that -- I don't have the

12 address. The house where John was assaulted in

13 May of, I think it was, 2001. Do you know if

14 there was a security alarm in that facility, that

15 home, in Atlanta?

16 A. There was. When we moved in, we

17 installed a very elaborate security system. And

18 subsequent to that, we had some extensive

19 remodeling done, and the security system was

20 dismantled and was subsequently reinstalled.

21 Q. Who was in charge of, in Boulder,

22 with turning the security system on or off? Was

23 that you or was that John, normally?

24 A. We normally did not use the security

25 system in Boulder.

Page 92

1 Q. Why was that?

2 A. Because we felt safe in Boulder.

3 Q. In Atlanta, I believe the security

4 system was not on when John was assaulted. Do

5 you know if that was true or not?

6 A. I don't believe that it was on.

7 Q. Do you know why it wasn't on?

8 A. I don't know why it wasn't on.

9 Q. Were you concerned that it hadn't been

10 left on?

11 MR. WOOD: You are assuming it was

12 not dismantled at that time?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: I actually ought to go

14 back to that, because you did mention

15 "dismantling."

16 MR. WOOD: I am trying to be lenient

17 with you. We have had a few back-and-forths,

18 Darnay, but I have a lot of trouble understanding

19 what this has to do with Chris Wolf and the

20 allegations in his claim or the defenses to this

21 case.

22 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you want me to

23 explain?

24 MR. WOOD: If you feel like you need

25 to, it might be helpful.

Page 93

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Oftentimes, a

2 jury or a trier of fact, as the case may be, is

3 allowed to consider something other than forensic

4 evidence in determining whether somebody is

5 involved in a crime or not, or just in any

6 event. And sometimes it is the demeanor of the

7 witness on the stand, whether a witness is, in

8 fact, telling the truth or not telling the truth,

9 or whether there are inconsistencies in the story

10 which are such that a jury would have a right to

11 draw what we call an inference; and from that

12 inference, what we call consciousness of guilt.

13 So the theory is that, if a person

14 is thought to be not telling the truth or just

15 simply the story is so implausible or inconsistent

16 that it indicates that there is a consciousness

17 of guilt, which a jury can use, at least in a

18 criminal case, to determine guilt or innocence, it

19 can be an element in it.

20 MR. WOOD: Talk to me.

21 MR. HOFFMAN: I hope I am stating

22 the law correctly. And that is one of the areas

23 I am going into in the deposition for the purpose

24 -- depositions, from what I understand, Lin, from

25 the federal rules, allow you to go into areas

Page 94

1 where you might be able to impeach a witness

2 later on. And so sometimes the questions don't

3 appear to be relevant except for the impeachment

4 purposes.

5 So that is one of the reasons why I

6 am going into this area.

7 MR. WOOD: Well, I am not going to

8 make a statement about whether I agree or

9 disagree with your statement of the law. It is

10 your right to make that statement. I understand

11 impeachment. I understand that it has to go to

12 a relevant and material issue.

13 I have grave doubts about whether an

14 incident in 2001 that occurred in the Ramseys'

15 home here where Mr. Ramsey was assaulted when he

16 got in and found someone that had broken in and

17 stolen a number of items from his home has

18 anything whatsoever to do, from a relevancy

19 standpoint or from an impeachment standpoint, with

20 the issues raised in Chris Wolf's libel lawsuit.

21 But I am going to let her answer the

22 question because I don't think it is -- you know,

23 it is one of those things we don't need to come

24 back and do later.

25 You can get the answer, but I just

Page 95

1 think that -- you know, just keep in mind that I

2 think you are pushing the envelope here, if not

3 going beyond it.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: For the purposes in

5 case you raise an objection, I will just simply

6 explain --

7 MR. WOOD: I will let her answer.

8 You do what you got to do.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: -- briefly why I am

10 doing this, and what it is about the security

11 system that I find intriguing in this case. And

12 it is the fact that there were concerns expressed

13 in the book about the security of the Ramsey

14 family and the fact that the Ramsey family felt

15 insecure.

16 And, naturally, one of the areas that

17 you would think would concern a family is the

18 fact that a night when their daughter had been

19 murdered, the security system had not been

20 working. And if there was any --

21 THE WITNESS: I believe in the

22 book --

23 MR. WOOD: No. Hold on.

24 This is where we don't need to go.

25 The security system was not turned on. And I

Page 96

1 think if you are familiar with the book, they

2 made it very clear why they didn't use it in

3 Boulder.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Right.

5 MR. WOOD: The point is, you are

6 asking about an incident that occurred, you say,

7 in 2001 where Mr. Ramsey came home while his

8 house was under renovation with construction

9 workers there and found someone in his home

10 stealing items, and there was a physical

11 altercation. And you are asking about the

12 security system here in 2001.

13 And I am just simply letting you

14 know, Darnay, I am going to let her answer

15 questions about that, but I think you are over

16 the line on relevancy to the claims and defenses

17 in this case. But I am trying to be lenient

18 because I want you to have the opportunity to

19 push the envelope out, but I would just ask you

20 to keep in mind that we are stretching this, in

21 my view, and I would ask you to --

22 MR. HOFFMAN: I am trying to --

23 MR. WOOD: No explanations are needed.

24 Your theory of the case is not needed. Just ask

25 the question, and I am going to let her answer.

Page 97

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am just trying to

2 enlarge the envelope so you see the envelope

3 isn't being stretched.

4 MR. WOOD: The envelope, to be

5 enlarged, is supposed to be under the rules by

6 you making a showing of good cause and getting a

7 court order.

8 MR. HOFFMAN: I am trying to do

9 that. I am trying to prevent you from having to

10 go in front of --

11 MR. WOOD: I am letting you ask it.

12 Just ask the question.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, were

15 you at all concerned with the fact that your

16 husband was attacked in your Atlanta home -- I

17 don't know if you have one or two -- Atlanta

18 home, and the security system had not been turned

19 on?

20 MR. WOOD: I object to the form of

21 the question.

22 You may answer the question.

23 THE WITNESS: I was concerned when I

24 learned that my husband had been physically

25 attacked, yes.

Page 98

1 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Were you concerned

2 that the alarm system had not been turned on?

3 A. I did not know -- I was not at the

4 home when all this happened, so I didn't know

5 whether the alarm system was on or not.

6 Q. Do you know, were you told by anyone

7 if the alarm system was or wasn't on at the time

8 of Mr. Ramsey's assault?

9 A. I don't believe that it was on. You

10 would have to ask him that.

11 Q. But that is your belief; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes. It was midday.

14 Q. There was -- also I believe in your

15 book you described an incident where you came

16 back to your home in Charlevoix, and everyone was

17 waiting in front of the house. I think Mr.

18 Ramsey, in fact, describes this incident.

19 MR. WOOD: What page?

20 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't know if I

21 marked that. What I may have to do is go back

22 to this question after lunch, because I think

23 that this may be one page that I didn't mark,

24 and I will go back to it. I was just going to

25 ask her if she recalled that particular event

Page 99

1 without having to reference it to the book. If

2 she needs to --

3 THE WITNESS: Which event is that?

4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) In Charlevoix,

5 there, I believe, is an incident where you

6 recount where something happened to the alarm

7 system, and I believe you and your mother and

8 maybe other members of your family were waiting

9 nervously outside for the alarm system people to

10 arrive, and they didn't. And I believe John went

11 looking through the -- I believe it was the

12 Charlevoix home to see if there was an intruder.

13 And I was just curious as to how that alarm

14 system had failed, that security system.

15 A. I don't recall that part in the book.

16 Q. Well, after the lunch break, I just

17 may bring you back very briefly to ask you if

18 you have any memory of that by referring to it

19 in your book there.

20 A. Okay. Thank you.

21 Q. Did you ever at any time make a

22 statement to anyone, other than your attorneys,

23 that you had written the phrase "Mr. and Mrs.

24 Ramsey," which had appeared on one of the pads

25 that the police found in your home, and has been

Page 100

1 referred to as the so-called "practice ransom

2 note"?

3 MR. WOOD: Let me just, for the

4 record -- are you stipulating that you have

5 evidence that the phrase "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey"

6 was written on what has been called a "practice

7 note"?

8 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I am not going to

9 stipulate to that.

10 MR. WOOD: I think, if you are going

11 to ask her about something, we ought to know

12 exactly what you are referring to, because I am

13 not sure that is correct at all.

14 MR. HOFFMAN: Fair enough. I didn't

15 want to have to bring it in in a long-winded

16 way.

17 In order to properly ask this

18 question, I am going to have to ask her a couple

19 of foundational questions.

20 MR. WOOD: Sure.

21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, did it

22 ever come to your attention, through whatever

23 source that is not privileged, like

24 attorney-client privilege, that there may have

25 been what the police have identified as "a

Page 101

1 practice ransom note" being written?

2 A. Yes, I have heard of "a practice

3 ransom note."

4 Q. Now, can you tell me what it is that

5 you heard was on that practice ransom note?

6 A. I don't know that I ever heard

7 exactly what was on the practice ransom note.

8 Q. Did you at any time ever say to

9 anyone, say, Pam Griffin, or someone like that,

10 somebody you knew, that you, in fact, had written

11 whatever was on the practice ransom note?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Now I am going to ask you to look at

14 your book here. And at page 210, it is right

15 by the photographs. Right down here, you will

16 see: "By now, anyone who knows John and me" --

17 just read the two sentences out loud.

18 A. "By now, anyone who knows John and me

19 will agree that, if there is anything we avoid,

20 it is the tabloids. When I pass the magazine

21 rack in the grocery store, I literally try to

22 look the other way."

23 Q. Is that an accurate statement of how

24 you feel?

25 A. Yes, it is