^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Text in Red is deleted excerpts from the Congressional record, as reported by John L. Spivak; click the ^ to see the deleted text. The first seven pages of Part 1 were not part of the Congressional record, but were found on Google Books (though difficult to ferret out, partially using quotes found by searching for "glazier" in articles found on newspapers.com for the dates on and just after December 29, 1934).

"Journalist John L. Spivak , researching Nazism and anti-Semitism for New Masses magazine, got permission from Dickstein to examine HUAC's public documents and was (it seems unwittingly) given the unexpurgated testimony amid stacks of other papers", which he printed.

The McCormack-Dickstein Committee "delet[ed] extensive excerpts relating to Wall Street financiers including Guaranty Trust director Grayson Murphy, J.P. Morgan, the Du Pont interests, Remington Arms, and others allegedly involved in the plot attempt. Even today, in 1975, a full transcript of the hearings cannot be traced."

The McCormack-Dickstein Committee conducted public and executive hearings intermittently between April 26 and December 29, 1934, in Washington, DC; New York; Chicago; Los Angeles; Newark; and Asheville, NC, examining hundreds of witnesses and accumulating more than 4,300 pages of testimony. [4]

U.S. House of Representatives, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities, Hearings 73-D.C.-6, Part 1, 73rd Congress, 2nd session, (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1935). p. 1-163

U.S. House of Representatives, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities

25741 U.S. House of Representatives, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities United States Congress

Please note that this report was scanned from a poor copy of a PDF file. [1] [2] [3] Therefore there may still be numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes, feel free to edit this page and correct any mistakes from the original PDF.

U.S. House of Representatives, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities

U.S. House of Representatives, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities

PDF file 1

Public Statement on Preliminary findings of HUAC, November 24, 1934 Edit

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INVESTIGATION OF NAZI PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES AND INVESTIGATION OF CERTAIN OTHER PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES PUBLIC STATEMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN- AMERICAN ACTIVITIES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SEVENTY-THIRD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION RELEASED TO THE PRESS REPRESENTATIVES BY HON. JOHN W. McCORMACK AND HON. SAMUEL DICKSTEIN WHO WERE SITTING AS A SUBCOMMITTEE RELEASED IN NEW YORK CITY, N. Y. NOVEMBER 24, 1934 UNITED STATES UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 103013 WASHINGTON: 1934 Congress of the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities Seventy-Third Congress John W. McCormack, Massachusetts, Chairman Thomas A Jenkins, Ohio Samuel Dickstein New York, Vice Chairman J. Will Taylor, Tennessee Carl M. Weideman, Michigan U. S. Guyer, Kansas Charles Kramer, California Hon Thomas W. Hardwick, Counsel P. P. Randolph, Secretary Subcommittee For This Hearing John W. McCormack, Massachusetts, Chairman Samuel Dickstein, New York

INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

[For release for morning papers, Nov. 26, 1934]

STATEMENT OF CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, MADE BY JOHN W. McCormack (MASSACHUSETTS), CHAIRMAN, AND SAMUEL DICKSTEIN (NEW YORK), VICE CHAIRMAN, SITTING AS A SUBCOMMITTEE

NEW YORK, Saturday, November 24, 1934.

This committee has had no evidence before it that would in the slightest degree warrant calling before it such men as John W. Davis, Gen. Hugh Johnson, General Harbord, Thomas W. Lamont, Admiral Sims, or Hanford MacNider.

The committee will not take cognizance of names brought into the testimony which constitute mere hearsay.

This committee is not concerned with premature newspaper accounts especially when given and published prior to the taking of the testimony.

As the result of information which has been in possession of this committee for some time, it was decided to hear the story of Maj. Gen. Smedley D. Butler and such others as might have knowledge germane to the issue.

In the course of his sworn testimony. General Butler testified that about July 1,1933, a telephone call from Washington to his home in Newton Square, Pa., near Philadelphia, asked for an interview with two unnamed Legionnaires.

Later that same day he was visited by one Gerald C. MacGuire, of New York, and William Doyle, of Boston, Mass., and as Butler testified, the latter prominent in Legion affairs of that State.

According to Butler's testimony, MacGuire and Doyle suggested to him that he become a candidate for national commander of the American Legion at its convention at Chicago to be held in October 1933 and further stated that he told him that he was not interested and realized that he could not be elected commander.

According to his further testimony, they discussed ways and means of his becoming a delegate, even suggesting that he might be named from Hawaii. This is the only conferences Doyle attended.

Butler further testified that MacGuire returned on several other occasions and suggested to him that he go to the Legion convention at Chicago and make a speech urging a resolution, the import being that the United States return to the gold standard.

Butler testified that he told him that "I don't know a damn thing about gold."

Butler further testified that on this occasion MacGuire showed him a bank book, the pages of which were flipped, indicating deposits of approximately $42,000.

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He then testified that MacGuire suggested that he gather 200 or 300 men and pay their expenses to the Chicago convention, the purpose being at the proper moment to have these men recognize Butler and demand that he make a speech and that then Butler was to make the speech on behalf of the gold standard, which he says had been handed to him.

When Butler asked MacGuire, according to the testimony, where the money was coming from, Butler testified that MacGuire told him “that we have plenty of money and have had some good-sized contributions."

Butler then testified that he saw MacGuire again and that MacGuire appeared in his hotel room in Newark during the reunion of the Twenty-ninth Division in September 1933 and while in Butler's room took a wallet from his pocket, threw a bunch of $1,000 bills on the bed and that when Butler asked him " How much money have you got there ", MacGuire is alleged to have replied "$18,000 ", and on further questioning is alleged to have told Butler that he got the money from contributions the night before and has not had an opportunity to deposit them and wanted to give them to Butler for his help.

Butler further testified that he told MacGuire, "Don't you try to give me any thousand-dollar bill, Remember, I was a cop once. Every one of the numbers on these bills has been taken. I know you people and what you are trying to do. You are just trying to got me by the neck. If I try to cash one of those thousand-dollar bills, you would have me by the neck." To which MacGuire is alleged to have replied, "We can change them into smaller denominations." The committee has learned that the reunion of the Twenty-ninth Division took place at Newark Saturday, September 16, and Sunday, September 17, 1933, and mentions these dates at this point because they) are important.

According to Butler's testimony, he then urged MacGuire to send one of the principals to him (Butler), as he realized that MacGuire was only an agent, and that MacGuire agreed to send Robert Sterling Clark and explained to Butler that Clark had been in the Army and had known Butler in China and that Clark had inherited millions.

Before MacGuire left Newark, according to Butler, he told the general that they were anxious " to see the soldiers' bonus paid in gold. We don't want the soldier to have rubber money."

Butler testified that during that week he had a telephone call from Clark and that he and his wife met Clark at the railroad station in Philadelphia the following Sunday. That he carried a bag, evidently prepared for traveling, and that they took him to their home at Newtown Square, where they chatted informally, had luncheon, and that then Butler and Clark had a conversation.

Butler testified that the question of the speech which MacGuire had left with him came up, and that Clark urged him to make it, and among other things, said, "You understand just how we are fixed. I have got 30 million dollars and I don't want to lose it. I am willing to spend half of the 30 million to save the other half. If you go out and make this speech in Chicago, I am certain that they will adopt the resolution and that will be one step toward the return to gold, to have soldiers stand up for it. We can get the soldiers to go out in great bodies to stand up for it."

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Testimony then shows that Butler claims he told Clark that he would not go to Chicago, although Clark offered the use of a private car; that he would not be mixed up in it; that he took an oath to sustain the democracy and that he would do that and nothing else and that he did not propose to get soldiers marching around and stirred up about the gold standard.

Butler claims that Clark then made some overtures regarding the mortgage on his home, but that after showing Clark the flags, banners, tokens of esteem, and medals of honor that he had received, that he felt confident that Clark would not discuss the subject further.

Butler states that Clark hesitated a few minutes and used the Butler telephone to call MacGuire at the Palmer House stating: "General Butler is not coming to the convention. He has given me his reasons and they are excellent ones and I apologize to him for my connection with it. I am not coming either. You can put this thing across. You have got $45,000. You can send those telegrams. You will have to do it that way. The general is not coming and I can see why. I am going to Canada to rest. If you need me, you know where you can find me. You have got enough money to go through with it."

Later the Butlers took Mr. Clark to the train and Butler stated that the bill for the telephone call was paid by himself.

The American Legion convention in Chicago passed the resolution endorsing the gold standard; and according to Butler, after the convention MacGuire stopped by to see him and suggested that Butler go to Boston to attend a veterans' dinner again for the purpose of advocating the gold standard, which the general says he refused to do.

According to the Butler testimony, he then did not hear from MacGuire until he received postal cards from Italy, Germany, Spain, and Paris and was amazed in August 1934: to get a call from MacGuire saying that he was coming out to Philadelphia and would Butler meet him there. Butler stated that he did meet MacGuire at the Bellevue-Stratford Hotel and had a very long talk with him while seated in an unused dining room.

In the course of this conversation, Butler stated that MacGuire told him that he went abroad to study the part that the veterans play in the various governments over there. That he had gone to Italy and discovered that the veterans are the background of Mussolini, but that that set-up would not do in the United States.

MacGuire, according to Butler, continued that he had gone to Germany to see what Hitler was doing, and found that that situation would not do in the United States either, and that he had been in France, where he found just exactly the organization that we ought to have in this country and called it an organization of " super-soldiers ", but that Butler did not remember the French name for that organization.

Butler further testified that MacGuire at that time told him that this French super organization was composed of about 500,000 men,

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and that each one of them was the leader of 10 others, and that that was the kind of an organization that we should have in the United States.

Butler then claims that when he asked MacGuire what he wanted to do with such a set-up, MacGuire stated, "We want to support the President", to which Butler claims he replied, "The President doesn't need the support of that kind of an organization; and, besides, since when did you become a supporter of Roosevelt; the last time you were here you were against him?"

MacGuire then, according to Butler's testimony, stated, "Don't you understand, the set-up has got to be changed a bit. We have the President with us now. He has got to have more money. There is no more money to give him. Eighty percent of the money now is in Government bonds and he cannot keep this racket up much longer. He has got to do something about it. He has either got to get more money out of us or has got to change the method of financing the Government, and we are going to see to it that he isn't going to change that method. He will not change it. He is with us now", to which Butler stated he replied: "The idea of this great group of soldiers then is to frighten him, is it?" and MacGuire, according to Butler's testimony, said, "No, no, no; not to frighten him. This is to sustain him when others assault him."

Butler claims that MacGuire then told him that the President was overworked, that he needed an assistant to take over the many heavy duties, and that such a position would be created and would probably be called "a secretary of general affairs ", and that when all that was accomplished the President of the United States would be like the President of France.

Butler's testimony continued by quoting MacGuire as having said: "I have been traveling around, looking around. Now, about this superorganization, would you be interested in heading it?" To which Butler states he replied: "I am interested in it, but I don't know about heading it. I am greatly interested in it, because you know, Jerry, my interest, my one hobby, is maintaining a democracy. If you get these 500,000 soldiers advocating anything smelling of Fascism, I am going to get 500,000 more and lick the hell out of you, and we will have a real war right at home."

According to the testimony, the conversation continued in that vein, and then Butler quoted MacGuire as having said: "We have 3 million to start with on the line and can get 300 million if we need it", and Butler claims he said: "Who is going to put all this money up", to which MacGuire is alleged to have replied: "You heard Clark tell you he was willing to put up 15 million to save the other 15 million.'"

Butler testified that in the conversation MacGuire suggested that if necessary the Vice President and Secretary of State would resign and that this secretary of general affairs would become the Secretary of State and follow through to the Presidential succession.

Butler further stated that he discussed this entire matter with his confident, Paul French, and that it was agreed between them that French should see MacGuire in New York.

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Paul Comley French, a reporter for the Philadelphia Record and the New York Evening Post, followed the general on the witness stand, testified that General Butler had spoken to him about this matter, and that they agreed that French should go to New York to get the story.

French testified that he came to New York, September 13, 1934, and went to the offices of Grayson M.-P. Murphy & Co. on the twelfth floor of 52 Broadway and that MacGuire received him shortly after 1 o'clock in the afternoon and that they conducted their entire conversation in a small private office.

French testified under oath, that as soon as he left MacGuire's office, he made a careful memorandum of everything that MacGuire had told him.

French testified that MacGuire stated, “We need a fascist government in this country to save the Nation from the Communists who want to tear it down and wreck all that we have built in America. The only men who have patriotism to do it are the soldiers and Smedley Butler is the ideal leader. He could organize one million men overnight."

Continuing, French stated that during the conversation MacGuire told him about his trip to Europe and of the studies that he had made of the Fascist, Nazi, and French movements and the parts that the veterans had played in them.

French further testified that MacGuire considered the movement entirely and tremendously patriotic and that any number of people with big names would be willing to help finance it. French stated that during the course of the conversation, MacGuire continually discussed "the need of a man on a white horse" and quoted MacGuire as having said "We might go along with Roosevelt and then do with him "what Mussolini did with the King of Italy."

MacGuire, according to French, expressed the belief that half of the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars would follow General Butler if he would announce the plan that MacGuire had in mind.

Toward the close of the conversation, French says that MacGuire told him that he was going to Miami for the American Legion convention and that he would try to see Butler before he left, but that Butler's being out of town prevented a meeting and that, so far as he knew, they had not seen each other since.

Gerald C. MacGuire was called to the stand late in the afternoon of Tuesday, November 20 and after being identified as a bond salesman with Grayson M.-P. Murphy & Co., stated that he was a member of the distinguished-guest committee of the Legion Convention in 1933, and later testified he was alternate delegate to the Portland convention in 1932 and delegate to Miami in 1934.

He stated that he had seen General Butler on various and sundry occasions, admitting that the first time he went there was in the company of William Doyle, of Massachusetts. He denies that an

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appointment had been arranged from Washington, but in his testimony on a subsequent day, admitted that this was the case.

MacGuire in brief, claimed that the object of his visit was to induce Butler to run for commander of the American Legion and that he had also talked to General Butler about forming a committee for a sound dollar, and a sound currency.

MacGuire denied that he had in any way thought of unseating the royal family of the American Legion ", but that he felt that if Butler could become a delegate at the Chicago convention, he might become commander.

MacGuire admitted that they did discuss the possibility of Butler becoming a delegate from Hawaii.

MacGuire claimed that he wanted to interest Butler in this Committee for a Sound Dollar, because, being a public man, he could go out and speak for the movement and that they wanted him to have an opportunity to make a little money.

MacGuire denied that he had at any time ever given Butler a prepared speech and claimed that he, MacGuire, was always for President Roosevelt.

At this point, MacGuire stated that he had met Butler on eight or nine different occasions, but that he had never talked to the general about taking 200 or 300 men to the Legion convention in Chicago, nor that he had ever shown Butler a bank book or that he had ever told Butler that he had large sums of money at his command.

MacGuire testified that he had been in Newark on the occasion of the reunion of the Twenty-ninth Division. That it was a Sunday and that all he had done was to hear Butler's speech and that he, MacGuire, then left.

To a question by chairman of the committee, MacGuire answered "I never had any money and he (Butler) never asked me if I had any."

MacGuire acknowledged that he had mentioned the name of Robert Sterling Clark to Butler in connection with the Committee for a Sound Dollar and that he had told Butler that Clark would back up such a committee with money.

At that point MacGuire testified that he had received $30,000 from Robert Sterling Clark and that the money was placed in the Central Hanover Bank & Trust Co. to the credit of "The Committee for a Sound Dollar and Sound Currency, Inc."

He further testified that this money was given him by Mr. Clark long after the Chicago convention of the Legion, and that he had also received from Walter E. Frew, of the Corn Exchange Bank & Trust Co., the sum of $1,000, which was also placed to the credit of the Sound Money Committee.

MacGuire then testified that he had received from Robert Sterling Clark approximately $7,200 for his traveling expenses to, in, and from Europe, to which had been added the sum of $2,500 on another occasion and $1,000 at another time, and he stated under oath that he had not received anything from anybody else and further testified that he had deposited it in his personal account at the Manufacturers Trust Co., 55 Broad Street.

MacGuire, further testified that he had a drawing account of $432 a month right now, to which were added some commissions.

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Later MacGuire testified that the $2,500 and the $1,000 were in connection with the organization of the Committee for a Sound Dollar.

MacGuire had a hazy recollection that Clark had talked to Butler, but denied emphatically that Clark had called him up while MacGuire was at the convention in Chicago, and that he did not make arrangements for Clark to meet Butler and did not know how the meeting was brought about.

MacGuire stated when questioned regarding the sponsorship of the gold standard resolution at Chicago "I think I had as much to do with proposing it as anyone." Chairman McCormack then directed the following question: " Did Mr. Clark contribute any money in any other way, besides the $30,000 and the other sums that you have enumerated he gave to you personally? " to which MacGuire replied, "No, sir; he has been asked several times to contribute to different funds, but he has refused."

Then MacGuire admitted that he had sent Butler post cards from various points in Europe and that he did have a conversation with the general at the Bellevue-Stratford, but that he was only with him for about 20 minutes.

MacGuire testified that he told Butler that he was going to the convention in Miami and, when asked whether he had told Butler that he had studied the part that the veterans played in the European governments, replied that he had not.

MacGuire denied telling Butler anything about any governmental set-ups in Europe, although he stated that he had told Butler that in his opinion "Hitler would not last another year in Germany and that Mussolini was on the skids ".

MacGuire again emphatically denied that he had said anything about the European veterans. Then MacGuire stated that Paul French had come to him and outlined a lot of things that Butler was trying to do with different veteran outfits in the country, and that he told French that Butler should not be mixed up with that kind of stuff.

Under further questioning MacGuire admitted that he had called up Butler and asked him whether he knew Paul French and that when he was assured that Butler did know him, he agreed to see him.

He stated that there was no particular significance in his calling Butler to find out whether French was all right or not, and that they discussed minor matters and that French's purpose in his visit was merely to know him.

While being questioned by both Congressman McCormack and Dickstein, MacGuire suddenly remembered that Clark had given him some money in connection with some bond transactions and fixed the sum at $25,000, which he stated he placed on deposit with the Manufacturers Trust Co., in a "special account", and further stated that Clark had paid his expenses in going around the country looking over various municipalities in connection with the purchase of their bonds.

MacGuire testified that this $25,000 was to go back to Mr. Clark, and that he had repaid $20,000 of it to Mr. Albert G. Christmas

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and that Christmas again gave him another check for $20,000 which he redeposited in the Manufacturers Trust Co. in the special account.

It should be noted here that Albert G. Christmas, attorney, 160 Broadway, represents Mr. Clark.

MacGuire swore that this money was for the purpose of buying securities and that he had used the money to purchase letters of credit for that purpose.

Then the questioning switched to MacGuire's stay at the Palmer House in Chicago, and the witness admitted that he had 4 rooms there for his personal use, 2 on one floor and 2 on another, and that some of his friends shared the rooms with him, splitting the expense.

At this point the ledger statement from the Manufacturers Trust Co., showing the account of G. C. MacGuire special, was introduced and it showed deposits on September 11, 1933, $15,000; September 13, $10,000; September 10, $2,200; September 18, $20,000.

The account showed withdrawals on September 15 of $1,125; September 16, $6,000; September 10, $20,000; September 23, $3,300; and September 23, $16,700. There were a few minor withdrawals later.

Reiterating that he was there for the purpose of buying bonds with this $25,000 he admitted that he did not talk to anyone, nor that he bought any, nor that he had any record of having received quotations, nor that he had asked any individual or firm whether tiny had any for sale. Continuing under oath MacGuire said that the $1,125 was drawn for expenses and that the $6,000 was tied up with other amounts, but that the cash was paid back to Christmas.

However, MacGuire testified he had no receipt from Christmas or anything else to show it. MacGuire admitted that he had bought and sold bonds to the value of approximately 9 million dollars for Clark, through the Murphy firm, but that this was the only time he had ever been handed any cash personally with which to buy them.

Hotel bills from the Palmer House showed MacGuire registered there continuously from September 21 to October 8.

The witness then introduced statement of Central Hanover Bank showing that he had purchased letters of credit amounting to $30,300 between September 19 and September 27, 1933. He further claimed that he converted all of these letters of credit into cash at the First National Bank of Chicago and that he put the money into a safe deposit box in Chicago and that after the convention was over, he brought all of the cash back to Mr. Christmas, less expenses, because he had not purchased any bonds.

MacGuire could not explain why he had paid a premium of one-half of 1 percent, amounting to $150, on $30,300 worth of letters of credit only to cash them without having any purchases in mind and then bringing the currency back to New York.

Later in the questioning MacGuire admitted that he received $10,000 in currency from Christmas, while MacGuire, Christmas, and Clark were having luncheon at the Bankers Club, which had nothing whatever to do with these other funds.

MacGuire stated under oath, that he took this $10,000 and placed it in his safety deposit box at the Seaman's Savings Bank; that it

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is no longer there; that he does not know when he took it out, nor does he remember what he did with it.

Again under questioning, MacGuire did not have any receipts for any of the sums of cash which he claims he repaid to Christmas as agent for Clark, in one case a sum of about $30,000. Note from the committee. Deposits in the Manufacturers Trust Co. special account which totaled $20,000 and the $10,000 which he admits he received in cash at the Bankers Club, are no part of the $31,000 which was used by the committee on sound money.

Shortly before MacGuire left the stand on his second day of questioning he again reiterated that he had been at the convention in Chicago continuously from about September 21 to October 8, while the actual convention was in session only on October 3, 4, and 5, and further stated that he had continuously been on the pay roll of G. M. P. Murphy & Co., regardless as to whether he was making tours of inspection at the expense of Clark or whatever he was doing.

Before MacGuire's testimony was resumed on Friday the 23d, the committee heard Claude M. Adamson, connected with the Central Hanover Bank in its letter of credit department.

Adamson testified and produced bank records showing that MacGuire had purchased with cash on September 19. 1933, a letter of credit in the sum of $2,300, and that he cashed $300 of it in New York immediately, that he cashed $1,100 of it at the First National Bank of Chicago on September 22, and cashed the remaining $900 at the First National Bank of Chicago on September 29.

Then Adamson testified that on September 23 (MacGuire was supposed to be in Chicago then), MacGuire again came into the bank and bought two letters of credit, one in the sum of $4,000 and the other in the sum of $9,000, for which he presented in payment 13 one thousand dollar bills.

Adamson stated that the money was handed to him at the desk of J. K. Olyphant, a vice president of the bank, and that the letters of credit were issued.

Adamson testified that both of these letters of credit totaling $13,000 were cashed on September 29.

Then Adamson testified that MacGuire came to the bank on September 27,1933 (when he had previously testified he was in Chicago), and presented a certified check in the sum of $15,075 which was to represent a letter of credit for $15,000 and the fee of $75.

Adamson swore and produced bank records to show that the letter was paid for with a certified check of Mr. A. G. Christmas on the Lawyers County Trust Co.

The bank records showed that MacGuire purchased this letter of credit on September 27, had it mailed to Chicago and cashed it on September 30, the day after he had cashed approximately $14,000.

The Central Hanover Bank also produced duplicate deposit slips showing that MacGuire had deposited $6,500 in currency in varying amounts in his personal account between September 18, 1934, and November 19, 1934, and when questioned, MacGuire said the money came "from a safe place." MacGuire's personal account in the Irving Trust increased by $6,000 in a short time with no explanation forthcoming.

Resuming his testimony on Friday, November 23, MacGuire failed to produce a book to which he had previously referred, in which he

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stated he had entered the moneys which he handled in connection with his trip to Chicago.

The congressional committee at this point surveyed the records of the Committee for a Sound Dollar and Sound Currency, Inc. found that it began life in December 1933 with the sum of $81,000 and that the money had been expended for salaries, traveling expenses, printing of propaganda, legal fees, and incidentals, and at the present time had a balance of about $24.

Neither the names of Robert Sterling Clark, A. G. Christmas, or Walter E. Frew are shown anywhere in the records of this committee.

The congressional committee also reviewed the audit of the sound dollar committee.

The congressional committee then went into the carbons of reports presented by MacGuire which he had written while he was in Europe. Some were addressed merely “Gentlemen", others to Mr. Clark and one to Mr. Christmas. Mr. MacGuire had previously testified he had been sent to Europe by Mr. Clark to study economic conditions.

In his letter of April 6, 1934, which is headed "My dear sir", MacGuire writes as follows:

There is no question but that another severe crisis is imminent. There have been various pieces of information given me to the effect that the Communists have been arming and are scattered in the outlying districts of Paris. However, this does not mean, to my mind, that there will be anything such as occurred in Vienna. If anything, it appears to me that the Communists may be used as a goat by the military, and that if this group should by any chance start demonstrations against the government, it may serve to call forth a "coup d'etat", which, it might be said, would be the use of the military.





I had a very interesting talk last evening with a man who is quite well up on affairs here and he seems to be of the opinion that the Croix de Feu will be very patriotic during this crisis and will take the cuts or be the moving spirit in the veterans to accept the cuts. Therefore they will, in all probability, be in opposition to the Socialists and functionaries. The general spirit among the functionaries seems to be that the correct way to regain recovery is to spend more money and increase wages, rather than to put more people out of work and cut salaries.

In letter on March 6, 1934, addressed merely to "Gentlemen" MacGuire writes:

* * * the Croix de Feu is getting a great number of new recruits, and recently attended a meeting of this organization and was quite impressed with the type of men belonging. These fellows are interested only in the salvation of France, and I feel sure that the country could not be in better hands, because they are not politicians; they are a cross section of the best people of the country from all walks of life, people who gave their "all" between 1914 and 1918 that France might be safe, and I feel sure that if a crucial test ever comes to the Republic that those men will be the bulwark upon which France will be saved.

There may be more uprisings, there may be more difficulties, but as is evidenced right now when the emergency arises party lines and party difficulties are forgotten as far as France is concerned, and all become united in the one desire and purpose to keep this country as it is, the most democratic, and the country of the greatest freedom in the European Continent.

MacGuire denied that he had spent a great deal of time going into veteran matters there, but he does use and gives a description of the Croix de Feu, which does compare with what Butler testified

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MacGuire had told him, and again MacGuire denied that he had told Butler about it.

In other parts of the correspondence what MacGuire wrote to Clark and Christmas about foreign veteran groups tallies with what Butler claims MacGuire told him, but which MacGuire denies he did.

In a letter dated April 24, 1934, addressed to "Gentlemen", MacGuire wrote:

I just returned from a trip to Brussels, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Berlin, Prague, Leipzig, Vienna, Munich, Zurich, Basle, Geneva, and thence back to Paris.

I was informed that there is a Fascist Party springing up in Holland under the leadership of a man named Mussait, who is an engineer by profession and who has approximately 50,000 followers at the present time ranging in age from 18 to 25 years. It is said that this man is in close touch with Berlin, and is modeling his entire program along the lines followed by Hitler in Germany. A number of people are quite alarmed because of the German influence and the probable financial support that this man is getting from Berlin. Generally speaking, trade conditions in Holland are extremely poor, the Germans have placed restrictions against the import of all foodstuffs from this country, and the large cotton mills that the Dutch have have been closed down for a considerable length of time, mainly because of our old friend Japanese competition in the Far East, particularly in the territories that the Dutch have as a market.

In another letter MacGuire said, “everywhere you go you see men marching in groups and company formation."

MacGuire could not explain why he gave a check for $20,000 to Albert G. Christmas on September 15 and received a check back from Christmas 3 days later for the same amount.

MacGuire admitted cashing a check on his special account for $6,000 on September 16, which was the day before he saw Butler in Newark, not forgetting the $10,000 that MacGuire had received currency from Christmas at the luncheon, which he said he placed in a safety deposit box.

MacGuire had no recollection of having come back to New York from Chicago during the period between September 21 and October , neither did he have any recollection of having been in Washington during that same period, when confronted with a hotel bill from the Mayflower Hotel showing that he was a guest there on September 24 and 25, 1933.

To all such questions MacGuire answered, "It is too far back" or "I don't recall."

Neither could MacGuire remember what the purpose of his trip was to Washington or whether he had given the Central Hanover bank thirteen $1,000 bills or that he had bought one of the letters of credit with a certified check drawn on the account of Mr. Christmas.

In the course of the questioning MacGuire could not remember whether he had ever handled thousand-dollar bills, and certainly could not remember producing 13 of them at one time in the bank. It must be remembered in this connection that the $13,000 purchase with $1000 bills at the bank came just 6 days after Butler claims MacGuire showed him eighteen $1,000 bills in Newark.

From the foregoing it can readily be seen that in addition to the $30,000 which Clark gave MacGuire for the sound money committee

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that he produced approximately $75,000 more, which MacGuire reluctantly admitted on being confronted with the evidence.

This $75,000 is shown in the $26,000 that went into the Manufacturers' Trust account, $10,000 in currency at the luncheon, the purchase of letters of credit totaling $30,300, of which Christmas' certified check was represented as $15,000, expenses to Europe close to $8,000. This still stands unexplained.

Whether there was more and how much, the committee does not yet know.

The committee is awaiting the return to this country of both Mr. Clark and Mr. Christmas. As the evidence stands, it calls for an explanation that the committee has been unable to obtain from Mr. MacGuire.

Public hearings Report of HUAC published December 29, 1934 Edit

Page 1 Edit

INVESTIGATION OF NAZI PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES AND INVESTIGATION OF CERTAIN OTHER PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES PUBLIC HEARINGS BEFORE THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SEVENTY-THIRD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION AT Washington, D.C. December 29, 1934 HEARINGS No. 73-D-C-6 PART 1

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 105730 Washington DC : 1935 The committee met for public hearing at 10 o'clock, in room 445 Old House Office Building, Hon. Jown W. McCormack (chairman,) presiding. Present: Mr. McCormack (chairman), Mr. Kramer, Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Taylor, and Mr. Guyer. THE CHAIRMAN. THE COMMITTEE AT THIS TIME PLACES INTO THE RECORD OF THIS PUBLIC HEARING TESTIMONY RECEIVED BY A SUBCOMMITTEE DURING EXECUTIVE HEARINS IN NEW YORK CITY LAST MONTH AS PERTENENT TO THE HEARING TODAY. THAT TESTIMONY FOLLOWS (SEE ALSO P. 129):

Tuesday, November 20,1934 Edit

House of Representatives, Subcommittee of the Special Committee on Un-American New York, N. Y.

The subcommittee met in executive session at 10:30 o'clock a.m. in the supper room of the Association of the Bar, 42 West Forty-fourth Street, Hon. John W. McCormack (chairman) presiding. Hon. Samuel Dickstein, vice chairman, present.

The CHAIRMAN. The subcommittee will be in order. We will hear Capt. Samuel Glazier.

Captain Glazier's testimony Edit

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The CHAIRMAN. Your full name, Captain, is what? Captain GLAZIER. Samuel Glazier. The CHAIRMAN. And you live where? Captain GLAZIER. In Baltimore, Md. The CHAIRMAN. And your address in Baltimore? Captain GLAZIER. 2419 Callow Avenue. The CHAIRMAN. And you are connected with a C. C. C. camp? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Where is it located? Captain GLAZIER. At Elkridge, Md. The CHAIRMAN. In what capacity are you connected with that camp?

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Captain GLAZIER. Commanding officer. The CHAIRMAN. You are in the United States Army? Captain GLAZIER. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. Have there been called to your attention any activities, at any time while you were commanding officer, on the part of outsiders to influence those who are in the camp? Captain GLAZIER. No. The CHAIRMAN. By the way, is this a boys' camp or a veterans' camp? Captain GLAZIER. Juniors' camp. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Jackson Martindell? Captain GLAZIER. Yes; I know him. The CHAIRMAN. How long have you known him? Captain GLAZIER. I have met him twice. The first time he came there he came there as a guest. I got an order from corps area headquarters stating this man was a personal friend of General Malone's and General Molone wanted to impress him and show him every courtesy. I got the note in the morning and about 5 o'clock that afternoon he came there with a letter of introduction. That letter of introduction said who he was, Jackson Martindell, of New York, and also went on and said that I was to show him every possible courtesy. The CHAIRMAN. The letter of General Malone was dated October 2, 1934? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Is that a copy of it, from your files [indicating letter]? Captain GLAZIER. That is right. This is the one I gave to some investigator. The CHAIRMAN. This is a letter dated October 2, 1934, and reads as folllows:

October 2, 1934. Subject: Introduction. To: Commanding officer, Three hundred fifty-sixth Comapny, C. C. C., Elkridge, Md. This will serve to introduce the bearer, Mr. Jackson Martindell, and party, who will be shown every courtesy by you. By command of Major General Malone: A. P. Sullivan, Captain, Adjutant General's Department, Assistant Adjutant General.

The CHAIRMAN. You showed him all through the camp? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. While at the camp on October 2, did he state he was in a position to obtain employment for boys as their enlistments ran out? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Naturally, that interested you, because that is a very important part of trying to solve the youth problem. Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Of which the C. C. C. is an important part? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. And at the conclusion of the visit, Martindell insisted upon your visiting him at his home in Bernardsville, N. J.?

Page 3 Edit

Captain GLAZIER. Not exactly. He said that he was coming back in a few weeks; that he was rather busy at present; that he was impressed with the camp and wondered whether it was possible to have a similar organization to the C. C. C.—in other words, regimentation, more or less, except that the men would work in industries rather than work in the forests as they do in the C. C. C.—and he was interested in facts and figures. I told him I could not give that to him right now, but I could in a few days. He promised he would come back in a few weeks and visit us. About a week later I got a long-distance call. The CHAIRMAN. I do not want to interrupt your line of thought, but we want to get this in sequence. He spoke about another organization in private industry; is that right? Captain GLAZIER. Similar to the C. C. C. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have any talk other than that? Captain GLAZIER. In other words, his opening statement was, more or less, that he was interested in the C. C. C. as applied to industry and that he could get jobs for around three, four, or five thousand men. Naturally, we in the C. C. C. camps were interested, because these men in the C. C. C. are only allowed to stay there 1 year, and after that they go out; that ends it. I was very much interested in that, because it was something close to my own heart. He was interested in facts and figures. He said he had not time to stay and learn them all, but if I would be so good, he would be glad to come back again and talk the situation over further with me. That was as far as the conversation went at that particular time. The CHAIRMAN. There was nothing said by him at that time as to the nature of this organization? Captain GLAZIER. Not at all. The CHAIRMAN. Or its purposes and objectives? Captain GLAZIER. No. The CHAIRMAN. About a week later you received a telephone call? Captain GLAZIER. He called me up on the long-distance phone and asked me if I would visit him at his home—that he would reimburse me for all expenses—to talk to some people who were also interested in this same organization that he was talking about when he visited me at the camp. I called up corps area headquarters and verified his particular position. They said he was all right, but to use my own discretion in what I said. The CHAIRMAN. Whom did you talk with at corps area headquarters? Captain GLAZIER. Captain Sullivan. So I went to Bernardsville, N. J. The CHAIRMAN. I do not ask that question because I think there is anything wrong, but merely to get the picture complete. Captain GLAZIER. He was the proper man to call. I called up in order to verify his particular status. I did not know then. I did not know whether he was a nut or anything else. They said he was a personal friend of General Malone's; that he was a very rich man, and that anything that I had to say would be at my own discretion. So I went to his home. He lives in Bernardsville, N. J., a beautiful place, about a 50-acre estate. We had lunch that day. His wife and his sister were present. While we were eating lunch there was conversation and during the conversation I noticed in his sister and him-

Page 4 Edit

self a particular antipathy against the Jews. Of course, right there I listened. After lunch his wife had to go into town. The CHAIRMAN. What was said, as you recall? Captain GLAZIER. Nothing, except rather derogatory remarks in general about the Jews; things of that sort. We had not gotten to any of the points that I am going to bring out, or concerning which you are going to question me. He did mention that he had this 50-acre estate; that he was interested in seeing whether or not this 50-acre estate could be made self-supporting in a manner similar to the C. C. C. In other words, he wanted to see if he could take a certain number of young men, put them on the estate; he would advance all the money necessary to make the thing a going affair and these men would more or less run the estate. It was a general conversation. They would probably make it self-supporting in every way—raise crops and sell them, do all of the necessary repair work—do things of that sort. He said, "Let us take a walk around here." So we did. We walked around the estate. He went on talking along these lines, about making this estate self-supporting. Then it came out that they wanted young men; that the older men of the country, even men who had money and things of that sort, were out. In other words, their day had passed. He figured that the country, at not any too distant future, was going to the dogs and he wanted an organization to take over the country when the time came. The CHAIRMAN. What did he say with reference to that? Captain GLAZIER. Well, he went on to say that they wanted men from 18 to 25, or possibly 35. He wanted an organization of 500,000 men, accumulating them gradually, and when the appropriate time came he would have them there. He went on to say that there was $700,000,000 that he controlled—not that he had it personally, but that he controlled through his office in estates and things of that sort, that would back him up to the extent of $700,000,000. He went on to state that there were a lot of people, particularly the Jews, that they were going to get out. He said that the way they were going to get these men into industry—and that he could get jobs for five or ten thousand men—was by getting rid of all the women and the Jews. The CHAIRMAN. That is, by removing the women and the Jews from competition with other men in industry? Captain GLAZIER. That is right: replacing them with these men, these youths. He went on along that line. Of course, that is the main thought in the entire subject, the fact that he was going to get the Jews out. It is surprising in a man of his type and evident intelligence that there should be such an intense, narrow-minded point of view about the Jews. I did not have anything to say. I listened. He talked for a couple of hours and then I opened my mouth. We went on inside. He had a couple of men there, youngsters, my age. He showed me a swastika, an arm band that he had gotten from Germany. He said he had visited in Germany and all over the Continent. He said he had talked to Hitler personally. The CHAIRMAN. He told you this? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. This is exactly what he told me. I took it up with Rabbi Israel [of Bolton Street Temple, Baltimore] and Simon Soboloff, who was formerly

Page 5 Edit

United States district attorney, after this had occurred, and I suppose through him you have gotten this information. He thought it was rather serious. I did, too. He also showed me a band that they were going to use, which was somewhat similar to that. Instead of a swastika it was a red eagle on a blue background with a " V " superimposed right through the entire eagle, which was supposed to mean the American Vigilantes. He had a flag, too, that they were in the process of making and he also showed me a membership card which a man was to sign in order to belong to this particular organization. On the back of this membership card it said, roughly, that "I swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the President"—things of that sort—"And to get rid of all undesirables and criminals." Nothing said at all about who the undesirables were. But he went on further to explain that the word "undesirable", in that sense, meant Jews. Of course, I was dumbfounded. The CHAIRMAN. Was there some talk between you about activity in the colleges? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. What did he say about that? Captain GLAZIER. He said that he would make it his business to get in touch with the various colleges, to get the names of graduates from these colleges in order to determine whether or not these men were working, and if not, to offer them a job. That at first, nothing was to be said about any organization at all. But later on, after they had been working about 6 months, they were to approach them with the idea of joining the American Vigilantes. The CHAIRMAN. At one time you suggested that he said that the purpose of this was to overthrow the Government? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. What did he say in connection with that? Captain GLAZIER. He said this: That he knew with the present policies of the President, eventually the country was coming to a revolution, and when that time came he wanted to be ready with his organization to take over the reins of the government. The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything further with reference to the policies of President Roosevelt, the present administration? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. In view of the fact that he is a man who is located in Wall Street and his particular business is what is known as "fiduciary counsel", he is not in accord with the President's policies, as he sees things and he thinks that eventually his policies are going to be the ruination of the country. In line with that particular story he did come and visit me about 2 weeks after I had seen him at his home and he showed me a four-page letter called "The News Letter", edited by himself and signed by himself in which he went on to state the various and sundry happenings on the other side. At that time he had issued two copies. He had a mailing list of 16,000 people, so he said. If there is anything to my mind that is sabotage—I mean regarding Government policies—that is. In other words, anyone reading one of these pamphlets would certainly think that the country was on the verge of ruin. It would be an added stimulus to anybody that had any particular doubts regarding the present administration. It would certainly push him over on the other side.

Page 6 Edit

The CHAIRMAN. You mean it would appeal to those who are discontented? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Of a disturbed mind? Captain GLAZIER. I would say this, that it would not be for the ordinary layman. It would for men of wealth. I asked him who wrote all these financial statements and he said it was Mr. Walter Kammerer, professor of economics at Princeton University. He said he was their fiduciary adviser. The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about who was paying for these issues? Captain GLAZIER. He said that he was paying for it; that it cost him about $12,000 a year; and that the purpose of this particular paper was gradually to work around to the youth movement. The CHAIRMAN. Did he tell you with whom he was connected in Wall Street? Captain GLAZIER. He said it was his own firm. I looked it up in the telephone book. It is under the name of Jackson V. Martindell, fiduciary counsel. The CHAIRMAN. Were there two men present at any one of these talks? Captain GLAZIER. There were myself and him and another man, evidently working in his office. I do not remember this young chap's name. The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about arming these men? Captain GLAZIER. No; nothing at all was said about arming these men. The CHAIRMAN. You say he said he represented how many millions of dollars? Captain GLAZIER. $700,000,000. He did state, however, in connection with getting these jobs in industrial centers, that Chicago and Cincinnati would be the bases of operations. I asked him why he did not start in Baltimore. As far as my own C. C. C. men were concerned, I did not think it would be advisable to take them out of their own towns. He said no, that he merely wanted to look at that as a pattern, so to speak; that when he was going to start this particular movement it would be in Cincinnati or in Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Did he at any time tell you about another C. C. C. camp in Butler, N. J.? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. He said he had just come back from the corps area and he was interested in some camp near his home and they had mentioned that the camp at Butler, N. J., was one of the outstanding camps in that particular corps area and that it would be well to look at that. He said he thought he would go there in view of the fact that it was only a few miles from his home. The reason he came to my camp was that my camp was one of the outstanding camps in that corps area. The CHAIRMAN. You do not know whether he has visited that camp? Captain GLAZIER. No. That is in the Second Corps Area. The CHAIRMAN. Did he state how the overthrow of the Government was to be brought about? Captain GLAZIER. The way I gathered it, and according to my recollection, the idea was that this overthrow was going to be a

Page 7 Edit

natural event. In other words, the country was going bankrupt and there would be a lot of unrest; that when the time came there should be an organization ready to take over and he was going to be the power with the organization. I think what he wanted me for—the way the conversation ran—he wanted to use me more or less as an organizer; in other words, I would get into a town, get so many men, promise them jobs, and they in turn would get so many other men; in other words, one of these chain affairs. But I never showed any particular enthusiasm, and, of course, he just went on and talked around it. He wanted me to stay all night. I told him I had to get back, so I left after lunch, around 5 or 6 o'clock. The CHAIRMAN. In connection with his visit to Germany, did he make any statements with reference to the movement and its success over there and how it came about? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. He mentioned the fact that the movement started over there as a youth movement, that these men were promised jobs, that jobs were obtained for them, more or less, and later on it developed into this Nazi movement. That is the way they expected to do it in America. The CHAIRMAN. Did he make any reference as to how it was financed in Germany? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. He said that Thyssen was the man who had the money and that Hitler would not have gotten to first base without Thyssen's money. The CHAIRMAN. The inference was that big business financed Hitler and that big business in this country would finance this movement? Captain GLAZIER. That is perfectly right. The CHAIRMAN. Or certain elements of big business? Captain GLAZIER. People who had big money right now. They had to do something to pull their irons out of the fire, more or less. But he definitely said that he could get very large industrialists to back his movement, by providing the necessary jobs. The CHAIRMAN. Did he say that he had been in contact with anyone in connection with furnishing jobs? Captain GLAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Did he mention any names? Captain GLAZIER. He did not. He did mention localities. The CHAIRMAN. What localities did he mention? Captain GLAZIER. Cincinnati and Chicago. He also mentioned the fact that he is continually traveling around the country, meeting these various industrialists, making talks and things of that sort. But to my mind the real thing is this news letter. I think that is really a dangerous instrument. The CHAIRMAN. Did he leave a copy with you? Captain GLAZIER. He did not. I wanted to ask him for it, but I thought I had better not. The CHAIRMAN. Did you notice where it was printed?

Captain GLAZIER. No; I did not. I did notice, however, the name that signed it. It was Jackson V. Martindell. He also mentioned that he was continually traveling all over the United States and on the other side.

Page 8 Edit

The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about what the form of the Government would be when they took the Government over?

Captain GLAZIER. Strictly a dictatorship—absolutely. That inference was very plain.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he say that?

Captain GLAZIER. Yes; he made the statement.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he say in connection with that?

Captain GLAZIER. He said that there ought to be one man who would run the country; and he would be the head of the organization.

The CHAIRMAN. He would be the head of the organization?

Captain GLAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he tell you who was the head of the organization?

Captain GLAZIER. Yes; he was the man.

The CHAIRMAN. He said he was the man ?

Captain GLAZIER. Yes. He was doing all of this.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about having an office anywhere outside of New York?

Captain GLAZIER. Yes. He said that he had men all over the United States, and particularly I saw on this News Letter this office in Cincinnati.

The CHAIRMAN. In connection with this organization or this movement?

Captain GLASSIER. Nothing except in this News Letter that he publishes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all, captain; thank you.

We will hear General Butler.

Testimony of Maj. Gen. S. D. Butler (Retired) Edit

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The Chairman. General, you are a retired Commandant of the Marine Corps?

General Butler. No, I was never Commandant.

The Chairman. You were in the Army how long?

General Butler. I was in the Marine Corps 33 years and 4 months on the active list.

The Chairman. As I remember, you are a Congressional Medal of Honor man; received the Congressional Medal of Honor on two occasions?

General BUTLER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. General, you know what the purpose of your visit here is today?

General BUTLER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Without my asking you any further questions, will you just go ahead and tell in your own way all that you know about an attempted Fascist movement in this country?

General BUTLER. May I preface my remarks by saying, sir, that I have one interest in all of this, and that is to try to do my best to see that a democracy is maintained in this country.

The CHAIRMAN. Nobody who has either read about or known about General Butler would have anything but that understanding.

General BUTLER. It is nice of you to say that, sir.

But that is my only interest.

Page 9 Edit

I think I had probably better go back and give you the background. This has been going on for a year and a half. Along—I think it must have been about the 1st of July 1933, two men came to see me. First there was a telephone message from Washington, from a man who I did not know well. His first name was Jack. He was an American Legionnaire, but I cannot remember his last name—cannot recall it now accurately.

Anyhow, he asked me if I would receive 2 soldiers—2 veterans—if they called on me that afternoon. I said I would.

About 5 hours later a Packard limousine came up into my yard and 2 men got out. This limousine was driven by a chauffeur. They came into the house and introduced themselves. One said his name was Bill Doyle, who was then the department commander of the Legion in Massachusetts. The other said his name was Jerry MacGuire.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did MacGuire come from?

General BUTLER. MacGuire said he had been State commander the year before of the department of Connecticut and was then living in Connecticut. Doyle was living in Massachusetts.

The CHAIRMAN. Had you met either of these men before?

General BUTLER. Never had seen them before, as I recollect. I might have done so; but as far as my impression then was, they were absolute strangers.

The substance of the conversation, which lasted about 2 hours, was this: That they were very desirous of unseating the royal family in control of the American Legion, at the convention to be held in Chicago, and very anxious to have me take part in it. They said that they were not in sympathy with the then administration—that is, the present administration's treatment of the soldiers.

They presented to me rather a confused picture, and I could not make up my mind exactly what they wanted me to do or what their objective was, but it had something to do with weakening the influence of the administration with the soldiers.

They asked me to go to the convention, and I said I did not want to go—that I had not been invited and did not care anything about going.

The Published Testimony: Then MacGuire said that he was the chairman of the distinguished-guest committee of the American Legion, on Louis Johnson's staff; that Louis Johnson had, at MacGuire's suggestion, put my name down to be invited as a distinguished guest of the Chicago convention. What Butler Really said: Then MacGuire said that he was the chairman of the distinguished-guest committee of the American Legion, on Louis Johnson's staff; that Louis Johnson had, at MacGuire's suggestion, put my name down to be invited as a distinguished guest of the Chicago convention ; that Johnson had then taken this list, presented by MacGuire, of distinguished guests, to the White House for approval; that Louis Howe, one of the secretaries to the President, had crossed my name off and said that I was not to be invited—that the President would not have it.

I thought I smelled a rat, right away—that they were trying to get me mad—to get my goat. I said nothing.

They said, "We represent the plain soldiers, and we want you to come to this convention." They said, "We want you to come there and stampede the convention in a speech and help us in our fight to dislodge the royal family."

The CHAIRMAN. When you say you smelled a rat, you mean you had an idea that they were not telling the truth?

General BUTLER. I could not reconcile and from the very beginning I was never able to reconcile their desire to serve the ordinary man in the ranks, with their other aims. They did not seem to be the same. It looked to me us if they were trying to embarrass the

Page 10 Edit

administration in some way. They had not gone far enough yet but I could not reconcile the two objectives; they seemed to be diametrically opposed. One was to embarrass the administration of the American Legion, when I did not want to go anyhow, and the other object will appear here in a little while. I do not know that at that moment I had formed any particular opinion. I was just fishing to see what they had in mind. So many queer people come to my house all the time and I like to feel them all out.

Finally they said, “Now, we have arranged a way for you to come to this convention."

I said, "How is that, without being invited?"

They said, “Well, you are to come as a delegate from Hawaii."

I said. "I do not live in Hawaii."

"Well, it does not make any difference. There is to be no delegate from one of the American Legion posts there in Honolulu, and we have arranged to have you appointed by cable, by radio, to represent them at the convention. You will be a delegate."

I said, "Yes; but I will not go in the back door."

They said, "That will not be the back door. You must come."

I said "No; I will not do this."

"Well," they said, "are you in sympathy with unhorsing the royal family?”

I said. "Yes; because they have been selling out the common soldier in this Legion for years. These fellows have been getting political plums and jobs and cheating the enlisted man in the Army, and I am for putting them out. But I cannot do it by going in through the back door."

"Well," they said, "we are going to get them out. We will arrange this."

Doyle and MacGuire's second visit Edit

That was all that happened the first day, as I recollect it. There were several days of it, and I will tell you everything that happened, but I cannot check it with the specific days. So they went away. Two or three days later they came back in the same car, both together, the second time. Doyle dropped out of the picture, he appeared only twice.

The Chairman. What was the second talk?

General BUTLER. The substance of the second talk was this, that they had given up this delegate idea, and I was to get two or three hundred legionnaires from around that part of the country and bring them on a special train to Chicago with me; that they would sit around in the audience, be planted here and there, and I was to be nothing but an ordinary legionnaire, going to my own convention as an onlooker; not as a participant at all. I was to appear in the gallery. These planted fellows were to begin to cheer and start a stampede and yell for a speech. Then I was to go to the platform and make a speech. I said, "Make a speech about what?"

"Oh," they said, “we have one here."

This conversation lasted a couple of hours, but this is the substance of it. They pulled out this speech. They said, "We will leave it here with you to read over, and you see if you can get these follows to come."

I said, "Listen. These friends of mine that I know around here, even if they wanted to go, could not afford to go. It would cost

Page 11 Edit

them a hundred to a hundred and fifty dollars to go out there and stay for 5 days and come back,"

They said, "Well, we will pay that."

I said," How can you pay it? You are disabled soldiers. How do you get the money to do that?”

"Oh, we have friends. We will get the money."

Then I began to smell a rat for fair. I said, "I do not believe you have got this money."

It was either then or the next time, or one of the times, they hauled out a bank-deposit book and showed me, I think it was $42,000 in deposits on that occasion, and on another occasion it was $64,000.

The Chairman: They took out a bank book and showed you what?

General Butler. They took out a bank book and showed me deposits of $42,000 on one occasion and $64,000 on another.

The Chairman. Do you know on what bank that was?

General Butler, I do not. They just flipped the pages over. Now, I have had some experience as a policeman in Philadelphia. I wanted to get to the bottom of this thing and not scare them off, because I felt then that they had something real. They had so much money and a limousine. Wounded soldiers do not have limousines or that kind of money. They said, "We will pay the bill. Look around and see if you cannot get two or three hundred men and we we’ll bring them out there and we will have accommodations for them."

Third visit with MacGuire Edit

This was getting along about the first of August, I should say. Well, I did not do anything about it. MacGuire made one other trip to see me, this time by himself, to see how things were getting along, I said that I had been busy and had not had time to get the Soldiers together. Then on this occasion I asked him where he got this money. He was by himself when I asked him that. Doyle was not around.

"Where did you get all this money? It cannot be yours."

He said that it was given to him by nine men, that the biggest contributor had given $9,000 and that the donations ran all the way from $2,500 to $9,000.

I said, "What is the object?"

He said the object was to take care of the rank and file of the soldiers, to get them their bonus and get them properly cared for.

Well, I knew that people who had $9,000 to give away were not in favor of the bonus. That looked fishy right away.

He gave me the names of two men; Colonel Murphy, Grayson M.-P. Murphy, for whom he worked, was one. He said, "I work for him. I am in his office."

I said to him, "How did you happen to be associated with that kind of people if you are for the ordinary soldier and his bonus and his proper care? You know damn well that these bankers are not going to swallow that. There is something in this, Jerry MacGuire, besides what you have told me. I can see that."

He said, "Well, I am a business man. I have got a wife and family to keep, and they took good care of them, and if you would take my advice, you would be a business man, too." I said, "What has Murphy got to do with this?

105730-35-No. 73-D.C.—6—PT 1----2

Page 12 Edit

"Well," he said, "don't you know who he is?"

I said, "Just indirectly. He is a broker in New York. But I do not know any of his connections."

"Well," he said " he is the man who underwrote the formation of the American Legion for $125,000. He underwrote it, paid for the field work of organizing it, and had not gotten all of it back yet."

"That is the reason he makes the kings, is it? He has still got a club over their heads."

"He is on our side, though. He wants to see the soldiers cared for."

"Is he responsible, too, for making the Legion a strikebreaking outfit?"

"No, no. He does not control anything in the Legion now."

I said: "You know very well that it is nothing but a strikebreaking outfit used by capital for that purpose and that is the reason they have all those big club-houses and that is the reasons I pulled out from it. They have been using these dumb soldiers to break strikes.

He said: "Murphy hasn't anything to do with that. He is a very fine fellow."

I said, "I do not doubt that, but there is some reason for him putting $125,000 into this"

Well, that was the end of that conversation. I think it was then that he showed me the deposit of $64,000.

The CHAIRMAN. MacGuire had the money?

General BUTLER. MacGuire had the bank book. He did not have any money yet. No money had appeared yet. There was nothing but a bank book showing deposits. It was in his name.

The CHAIRMAN. In his name?

General BUTLER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Not in Doyle's name?

General BUTLER. No. Doyle had faded out of the picture and his name was never mentioned again and has never been mentioned since I do not know but what Doyle just rode along with him.

Meeting in hotel (September 1st) Edit

The next time I saw him was about the 1st of September, in a hotel in Newark. I went over to the convention of the Twenty-ninth Division. Sunday morning he walked into my room and he asked me if I was getting ready now to take these men out to Chicago, that the convention was pretty close. I said, "No; I am not going to Chicago."

"Why not?"

I said, "You people are bluffing. You have not got any money.” Whereupon he took out a big wallet; out of his hip pocket, and a great, big mass of thousand dollar bills and threw them out on the bed.

I said, "What's all this?"

He says," This is for you, for expenses. You will need some money to pay them."

"How much money have you got there ? "

He said, “$18,000”

"Where did you get those thousand dollar bills?"

"Oh", he said, " last night some contributions were made. I just have not had a chance to deposit them, so I brought them along with me."

I said, "Don't you try to give me any thousand dollar bill. Remember, I was a cop once. Every one of the numbers on these bills has been taken. I know you people and what you are trying to do. You are just trying to get me by the neck. If I try to cash one of those thousand dollar bills, you would have me by the neck."

"Oh," he said, "we can change them into smaller denominations.”

I said, "You put that money away before somebody walks in here and sees that money around, because I do not want to be tied up with it at all. I told you distinctly I am not going to take these men to Chicago."

"Well, are you going yourself?"

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I said, "Oh, I do not know. But I know one thing. Somebody is using you. You are a wounded man. You are a bluejacket. You have got a silver plate in your head. I looked you up. You were wounded. You are being used by somebody, and I want to know the fellows who are using you. I am not going to talk to you any more. You are only an agent. I want some of the principals."

He said, "Well, I will send one of them over to see you." I said, "Who?" He said, "I will send Mr. Clark."

"Who is Mr. Clark?"

“Well, he is one of our people. He put up some money."

"Who is he?"

"Well, his name is R. S. Clark. He is a banker. He used to be in the Army."

"How old a man is he?" He told me.

"Would it be possible that he was a second lieutenant in the Ninth Infantry in China during the Boxer campaign?" He said, "That is the fellow."

He was known as the "millionaire lieutenant" and was sort of batty, sort of queer, did all sorts of extravagant things. He used to go exploring around China and wrote a book on it, on explorations. He was never taken seriously by anybody. But he had a lot of money. An aunt and an uncle died and left him $10,000,000. That was the story at the time. So he said, "I will send him over to see you." I said, "All right, you send him over."

Meeting with Clark Edit

I thought no more about it until the end of the week, when Clark called up and asked if he might spend Sunday with me. I said, “Yes", and he said, “I will take the 9 o'clock train from New York." I said, "All right; I will meet you at the station."

Well, this was getting down to something real. I was there on time, and he stepped off the train, and I recognized him. I had not seen him for 34 years, but I could see that he was the same man, a long, gangling fellow. His hair had turned gray, but it was the same man. We got in the car and drove out home and had lunch. He did not approach the subject until after lunch. Then we went out on the porch and he began to talk about my going to the convention alone with him; that he had reservations. He said something about a private car attached to the Pennsylvania Limited; that we could get on at Paoli and go right out with him, and that he had a suite of rooms for me at the Palmer House and he would see that I had a chance to speak.

The Published Testimony: He said, "You have got the speech?" I said, "Yes. These fellows, Doyle and MacGuire, gave me the speech." I said, "They wrote a hell of a good speech, too." He said, "Did those fellows say that they wrote that speech?" I said, "Yes; they did. They told me that that was their business, writing speeches." He laughed and said, "That speech cost a lot of money." Clark told me that it had cost him a lot of money. He thought that it was a big joke that these fellows were claiming the authorship of that speech. What Butler Really said: He said, "You have got the speech?" I said, "Yes. These fellows, Doyle and MacGuire, gave me the speech." I said, "They wrote a hell of a good speech, too." He said, "Did those fellows say that they wrote that speech?" I said, "Yes; they did. They told me that that was their business, writing speeches." He laughed and said, "That speech cost a lot of money." Clark told me that it had cost him a lot of money. Now either from what he said then or from what MacGuire had said, I got the impression that the speech had been written by John W. Davis—one or the other of them told me that—but he thought that it was a big joke that these fellows were claiming the authorship of that speech.

I said, "The speech has nothing to do with what I am going to Chicago for. The speech urges the convention to adopt the resolution that the United States shall return to the gold standard." MacGuire had said, "We want to see the soldiers' bonus paid in gold. We do not want the soldier to have rubber money or paper money. We want the gold. That is the reason for this speech."

Page 14 Edit

"Yes" I said, "but it looks as if it were a big-business speech. There is something funny about that speech, Mr. Clark."

The conversations were almost the same with both of them.

Clark said, "You understand just how we are fixed. I have got $30,000,000. I do not want to lose it. I am willing to spend half of the $30,000,000 to save the other half. If you go out and make this speech in Chicago, I am certain that they will adopt the resolution and that will be one step toward the return to gold, to have the soldiers stand up for it. We can get the soldiers to go out in great bodies to stand up for it."

This was the first beginning of the idea, you see, of having a soldiers' organization, getting them to go out in favor of the gold standard. Clark's thought was, "I do not want to lose my money."

Well, I said, "I am not going to Chicago." He said, "Why not?" I said, "I do not want to be mixed up in this thing at all. I tell you very frankly, Mr. Clark, I have got one interest and that is the maintenance of a democracy. That is the only thing. I took an oath to sustain the democracy, and that is what I am going to do and nothing else. I am not going to get these soldiers marching around and stirred up over the gold standard. What the hell does a soldier know about the gold standard? You are just working them, using them, just as they have been used right along, and I am going to be one of those to see that they do not use them any more except to maintain a democracy. And then I will go out with them any time to do that."

He said, "Why do you want to be so stubborn? Why do you want to be different from other people? We can take care of you. You have got a mortgage on this house", waving his hand, pointing to the house. "That can all be taken care of. It is perfectly legal, perfectly proper."

"Yes," I said, "but I just do not want to do it, that's all." Finally I said, "Do you know what you are trying to do? You are trying to bribe me in my own house. You are very polite about it and I can hardly call it that, but it looks kind of funny to me, making that kind of proposition. You come out into the hall, I want to show you something."

We went out there. I have all the flags and banners and medals of honor, and things of that kind. It is my own place. They have been given me by the Chinese and the Nicaraguans and the Haitians—by the poor people. I said to him, "You come out here. Look at what and see what you are trying to do. You are trying to buy me away from my own kind. When you have made up your mind that I will not go with you, then you come on and tell me."

In a few minutes he came back to the back office and said, "Can I use your telephone?" "Yes." He called up Chicago and got hold of MacGuire at the Palmer House and he said to MacGuire, "General Butler is not coming to the convention. He has given me his reasons and they are excellent ones, and I apologize to him for my connection with it. I am not coming either. You can put this thing across. You have got $45,000. You can send those telegrams. You will have to do it in that way. The general is not coming. I can see why. I am going to Canada to rest. If you want me, you know where you can find me. You have got enough money to go through with it."

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That was the end of that and we talked pleasantly on personal matters after that. I took him to the train about 6 o'clock and he went home.

The convention came off and the gold standard was endorsed by the convention. I read about it with a great deal of interest. There was some talk about a flood of telegrams that came in and influenced them and I was so much amused, because it happened right in my room.

Then MacGuire stopped to see me on his way back from the convention. This time he came in a hired limousine. It was not a private one this time. He came out to the house and told me that they had been successful in putting over their move. I said, "Yes, but you did not endorse the soldiers' bonus."

He said, "Well, we have got to get sound currency before it is worth while to endorse a bonus."

He then went away and the campaign here in New York started. They were electing municipal officers, a political campaign. A marine was running for public office over here in Brooklyn and I came over to make a speech for him.

I was met at the train by MacGuire. He seemed to know just where I was going and he said he wanted to go with me, and he did.

The Published Testimony: I think there was one other visit to the house because he (MacGuire) proposed that I go to Boston to a soldiers' dinner to be given in my honor. He suggested that I go up to Boston to this dinner for the soldiers. He said, "We will have a private car for you on the end of the train. You will make a speech at this dinner and it will be worth a thousand dollars to you." What Butler Really said: I think there was one other visit to the house because he (MacGuire) proposed that I go to Boston to a soldiers' dinner to be given by Governor Ely for the soldiers, and that I was to go with Al Smith. He said, "We will have a private car for you on the end of the train and have your picture taken with Governor Smith . You will make a speech at this dinner and it will be worth a thousand dollars to you."

I said, "I never got a thousand dollars for making a speech."

He said, "You will get it this time."

"Who is going to pay for this dinner and this ride up in the private car?"

"Oh, we will pay for it out of our funds. You will have your picture taken with Governor Smith."

I said, "I do not want to have my picture taken with Governor Smith. I do not like him."

"Well, then, he can meet you up there.

I said, "No, there is something wrong in this. There is no connection that I have with Al Smith, that we should be riding along together to a soldiers' dinner. He is not for the soldiers' either. I am not going to Boston to any dinner given by Governor Ely for the soldiers. If the soldiers of Massachusetts want to give a dinner and want me to come, I will come. But there is no thousand dollars in it."

So he said, "Well, then, we will think of something else."

I said, "What is the idea of Al Smith in this?"

"Well" he said, "Al Smith is getting ready to assault the Administration in his magazine. It will appear in a month or so. He is going to take a shot at the money question. He has definitely broken with the President."

I was interested to note that about a month later he did, and the New Outlook took the shot that he told me a month before they were going to take. Let me say that this fellow has been able to tell me a month or six weeks ahead of time everything that happened. That made him interesting. I wanted to see if he was going to come out right.

So I said at this time, "So I am going to be dragged in as a sort of publicity agent for Al Smith to get him to sell magazines by having our picture taken on the rear platform of a private car, is that the idea?"

"Well, you are to sit next to each other at dinner and you are both going to make speeches. You will speak for the soldiers without assaulting the Administration, because this Administration has cut their throats. Al Smith will make a speech, and they will both be very much alike."

I said, "I am not going. You just cross that out."

Then when he met me over in New York, he had another idea. He said, "You are going on a trip for the Veterans of Foreign Wars. You are going around recruiting them, aren't you?" I said, "Yes; I am going to start as soon as this campaign is over."

The Chairman. When was this campaign?

General Butler. This was in November 1933. All of this happened between July and November, everything I told you. The campaign was on over here.

The Chairman. That was a city campaign?

General Butler. The municipal campaign; yes. I do not remember very much about it, but some soldiers asked me to come over and speak for a marine that was running for office, and I did.

Anyhow, he met me at the train and he had another idea. He said, "You are going out to speak for the veterans." I said, "Yes." I told him this about a dozen times. "You know, I believe that sooner or later there is going to be a test of our democracy, a test of this democratic form of government. The soldiers are the only people in this country who have ever taken an oath to sustain it.

Page 16 Edit

I believe that I can appeal to them by the millions to stand up for a democracy, because they have more stake in a democracy than any other class of our citizens, because they have fought for it. I am going out to the Veterans of Foreign Wars. They are my kind, overseas people, old regulars, and see if I cannot get a half a million of those fellows and preach this to them, that we have got to standup against war. I have got an object in doing it. I believe that sooner or later we are going to have a showdown, because I have had so many invitations to head societies and to join societies, all of them with a camouflaged patriotic intent. They are rackets, all of them."

I said this to him a dozen times. But he said, "Well, that is what we are for." He said, "I want to go around with you, around the country. I want to go around and talk to the soldiers in the background and see if we cannot get them to join a great big super organization to maintain the democracy."

I said, "I do not know about you going along, Jerry. Of course, I cannot keep you off of the train. But there is something funny about all this that you are doing and I am not going to be responsible for it and I do not want any more to do with it. You are a wounded soldier and I am not going to hurt you, but you must lay off this business with me, because there is too much money in it."

"Well, I am a business man," he said. He said, "I do not see why you will not be a business man, too."

I said, "If fiddling with this form of government is business, I am out of it; if that is your business."

"Oh." he said, "I would not disturb this form of government." I said, "You have got some reason for getting at these soldiers other than to maintain a democracy."

That was the end of that visit. He did not get on the train when I left, the latter part of November, to make this tour of 4 months.

I never heard of him again until about February, when I had a post card from Nice, down on the Riviera. He said he was having a wonderful time over there. Then I began to get the idea that he was using Clark—to pull money out of Clark by frightening him about his $30,000,000—and then he was coming to me; and then he would go back and tell Clark," I have been to see Butler, and he will go along if you will get me $5,000 more." In other words, I could see him working both ends against the middle and making a sucker out of Clark. However, if Clark wanted to get rid of his money, it was none of my business. I had another short note from him, from Berlin, along in the spring, about April or May. He said he was having a wonderful time. He had been over there ever since he left me in November. He went over the 1st of December. That is the reason I had not heard anything more of him.

Then along in the latter part of August of this year—nothing happened this year until August—he called me on the telephone one day and said that he wanted to know if I could meet him in Philadelphia that afternoon; that he only had a very short time to spend with me, but if I could run in for an hour, he had something of the utmost importance to tell me. Mrs. Butler and I happened to be going into Philadelphia and I said, "I will meet you at the Thirtieth Street station."

"No; I do not want to meet you at the railroad station. Come to the Bellevue." I went to the Bellevue at 3 o'clock, and there he

Page 17 Edit

was in the lobby. We went back into the back part of the lobby, where nobody was at the time. There was an abandoned cafe there. We went there. He told me what a wonderful time he had had in Europe. He told me all about his trip to Europe. Now, he is a very cagey individual. He always approaches everything from afar. He is really a very nice, plausible fellow. But, I gather, after this association with him, that due to this wound in his head, he is a little inconsistent, a little flighty. He is being used, too, but I do not think Clark is using him. "My impression is that Murphy uses him; and he uses Clark, because Clark has the money. So he finally said "We are going down to the convention in Miami. You are coming?"

I said, "No; I am not going to the convention."

He said "The time has come now to get the soldiers together."

"Yes," I said, "I think so, too." He said. "I went abroad to study the part that the veteran plays in the various set-ups of the governments that they have abroad. I went to Italy for 2 or 3 months and studied the position that the veterans of Italy occupy in the Fascist set-up of government, and I discovered that they are the background of Mussolini. They keep them on the pay rolls in various ways and keep them contented and happy; and they are his real backbone, the force on which he may depend, in case of trouble, to sustain him. But that set-up would not suit us at all. The soldiers of America would not like that. I then went to Germany to see what Hitler was doing, and his whole strength lies in organizations of soldiers, too. But that would not do. I looked into the Russian business. I found that the use of the soldiers over there would never appeal to our men. Then I went to France, and I found just exactly the organization we are going to have. It is an organization of supersoldiers." He gave me the French name for it, but I do not recall what it is. I never could have pronounced it, anyhow. But I do know that it is a superorganization of members of all the other soldiers' organizations of France composed of noncommissioned officers and officers. He told me that they, had about 500,000, and that each one was a leader of 10 others, so that it gave them 5,000,000 votes. And he said, "Now, that is our idea here in America—to get up an organization of that kind."

I said, "What do you want to do with it when you get it up?"

"Well," he said, "we want to support the President."

I said, "The President does not need the support of that kind of an organization. Since when did you become a supporter of the President? The last time I talked to you you were against him."

He said. "Well, he is going to go along with us now."

"Is he?"

"Yes."

"Well, what are you going to do with these men, suppose you get these 500,000 men in America? What are you going to do with them?"

"Well," he said, "they will be the support of the President."

I said, "The President has got the whole American people. Why does he want them?"

He said. "Don't you understand the set-up has got to be changed a bit? Now, we have got him—we have got the President. He has got to have more money. There is not any more money to give him. Eighty percent of the money now is in Government bonds, and he

MacGuire’s offer to overthrow the government Edit

Page 18 Edit

cannot keep this racket up much longer. He has got to do something about it. He has either got to get more money out of us or he has got to change the method of financing the Government, and we are going to see to it that he does not change that method. He will not change it. He is with us now.

I said, "The idea of this great group of soldiers, then, is to sort of frighten him, is it?"

"No, no, no; not to frighten him. This is to sustain him when others assault him."

He said, "You know, the President is weak. He will come right along with us. He was born in this class. He was raised in this class, and he will come back. He will run true to form. In the end he will come around. But we have got to be prepared to sustain him when he does."

I said, "Well, I do not know about that. How would the President explain it?"

He said: "He will not necessarily have to explain it, because we are going to help him out. Now, did it ever occur to you that the President is overworked? We might have an Assistant President, somebody to take the blame; and if things do not work out, he can drop him." He said, "That is what he was building up Hugh Johnson for. Hugh Johnson talked too damn much and got him into a hole, and he is going to fire him in the next three or four weeks."

I said, "How do you know all this?"

"Oh," he said, "we are in with him all the time. We know what is going to happen."

He went on to say that it did not take any constitutional change to authorize another Cabinet official, somebody to take over the details of the office—take them off the President's shoulders. He mentioned that the position would be a secretary of general affairs—a sort of a super secretary.

The CHAIRMAN. A secretary of general affairs?

General BUTLER. That is the term used by him—or a secretary of general welfare—I cannot recall which. I came out of the interview with that name in my head. I got that idea from talking to both of them, you see. They had both talked about the same kind of relief that ought to be given the President, and he said: "You know, the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President's health is failing. Everybody can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second."

And I could see it. They had that sympathy racket, that they were going to have somebody take the patronage off of his shoulders and take all the worries and details off of his shoulders, and then he will be like the President of France. I said, “So that is where you got this idea?"

He said: "I have been traveling around—looking around. Now about this superorganization—would you be interested in heading it?"

I said, "I am interested in it, but I do not know about heading it. I am very greatly interested in it, because you know, Jerry, my interest is, my one hobby is, maintaining a democracy. If you get these 500,000 soldiers advocating anything smelling of Fascism, I am going to get 500,000 more and lick the hell out of you, and we will have a real war right at home. You know that."

"Oh, no. We do not want that. We want to ease up on the President."

He is going to ease up on him.

“Yes; and then you will put somebody in there you can run; is that the idea? The President will go around and christen babies and dedicate bridges, and kiss children. Mr. Roosevelt will never agree to that himself."

"Oh, yes; he will. He will agree to that."

Page 19 Edit

I said, “I do not believe he will." I said, “Don’t you know that this will cost money, what you are talking about?”

He says, “Yes; we have got $3,000,000 to start with, on the line, and we can get $300,000,000, if we need it."

"Who is going to put all this money up?”

“Well," he said, "you heard Clark tell you he was willing to put op $15 000,000 to save the other $15,000,000."

“How are you going to care for all these men?"

He said, "Well, the Government will not give them pensions, or anything of that kind, but we will give it to them. We will give privates $10 a month and destitute captains $35. We will get them all right."

"It will cost you a lot of money to do that."

He said, “We will only have to do that for a year, and then everything will be all right again."

Now, I cannot recall which one of these fellows told me about the rule of succession, about the Secretary of State becoming President when the Vice-President is eliminated. There was something said in one of the conversations that I had either with MacGuire or with Flagg, whom I met in Indianapolis , that the President's health was bad, and he might resign, and that Garner did not want it anyhow, and then this super-secretary would take the place of the Secretary of State and in the order of succession would become President. He made some remark about the President being very thin-skinned and did not like criticism, and it would be very much easier to pin it on somebody else. He could say that he was above such routine matters and let the other fellow take care of it and then get rid of him if necessary. That was the idea. He said that they had this money to spend on it, and he wanted to know again if I would head it, and I said, “No, I was interested in it, but I would not head it."

The Published Testimony: He said “When I was in Paris, my headquarters were Morgan & Hodges. We had a meeting over there. I might as well tell you that our group is for you, for the head of this organization. Morgan & Hodges are against you. The Morgan interests say that you cannot be trusted, that you will be too radical, and so forth, that you are too and I said, "No; I was interested in it, but I would not head it." much on the side of the little fellow; you cannot be trusted. They do not want you. But our group tells them that you are the only fellow in America who can get the soldiers together. They say, 'Yes, but he will get them together and go in the wrong way.' That is what they say if you take charge of them." What Butler Really said: He said “When I was in Paris, my headquarters were Morgan & Hodges (Harjes) . We had a meeting over there. I might as well tell you that our group is for you, for the head of this organization. Morgan & Hodges (Harjes) are against you. The Morgan interests say that you cannot be trusted, that you are too radical, and so forth, that you are too much on the side of the little fellow; you cannot be trusted. They are for Douglas MacArthur as the head of it. Douglas MacArthur's term expires in November, and if he is not reappointed it is to be presumed that he will be disappointed and sore and they are for getting him to head it." I said, "I do not think that you will get the soldiers to follow him, Jerry. He is in bad odor, because he put on a uniform with medals to march down the street in Washington. I know the soldiers." "Well, then, we will get Hanford MacNider. They want either MacArthur or MacNider. They do not want you. But our group tells them that you are the only fellow in America who can get the soldiers together. They say, 'Yes, but he will get them together and go in the wrong way.’ That is what they say if you take charge of them." I said, "MacNider won't do either. He will not get the soldiers to follow him, because he has been opposed to the bonus." "Yes, but we will have him in change (charge?)" And it is interesting to note that three weeks later after this conversation MacNider changed and turned around for the bonus. It is interesting to note that. He said, "There is going to be a big quarrel over the reappointment of MacArthur" and he said, "you watch the President reappoint him. He is going to go right and if he does not reappoint him, he is going to go left." I have been watching with a great deal of interest this quarrel over his reappointment to see how it comes out. He said, "You know as well as I do that MacArthur is Stotesbury's son-in-law in 