Clay Shirky and Daniel Pink have led eerily parallel lives. Both grew up in Midwest university towns in the 1970s, where they spent their formative years watching television after school and at night. Both later went to Yale (a BA in painting for Shirky, a law degree for Pink). And both eventually abandoned their chosen fields to write about technology, business, and society.

Now their paths are intersecting. In December, Pink, a Wired contributing editor, came out with Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us. The book digs through more than five decades of behavioral science to challenge the orthodoxy that carrots and sticks are the most effective ways to motivate workers in the 21st century. Instead, he argues, the most enduring motivations aren't external but internal—things we do for our own satisfaction.

And in June, Shirky is publishing Cognitive Surplus: Creativity and Generosity in a Connected Age, which mines adjacent territory. He argues that the time Americans once spent watching television has been redirected toward activities that are less about consuming and more about engaging—from Flickr and Facebook to powerful forms of online political action. (For an alternate perspective on the influence of the Internet, see Nicholas Carr's essay) And these efforts aren't fueled by external rewards but by intrinsic motivation—the joy of doing something for its own sake.

Read Wired on the iPad. Get the entire magazine, plus exclusive video, audio, slideshows, and more. Download now.Wired had the two sit down for a conversation about motivation and media, social networking, sitcoms, and why the hell people spend their free time editing Wikipedia.

Pink: A few days ago, I was talking with someone about Wikipedia. And the guy shook his head dismissively and said about the people who contribute to it: "Where do they get the time?" We both think that's a silly question.

Shirky: It is. People have had lots of free time for as long as there's been the industrialized world. But that free time has mainly been something to be used up rather than used, especially in postwar America, with the rise of suburbanization and long commutes. Suddenly we no longer lived in tight-knit communities and therefore we spent less time interacting face-to-face. As a result, we ended up spending the bulk of our free time watching television.

Pink: The numbers on that are astonishing.

Shirky: Staggering. Someone born in 1960 has watched something like 50,000 hours of television already. Fifty thousand hours—more than five and a half solid years.

Pink: You've just described our boyhoods.

Shirky: Yes, sitting in front of the television.

Pink: Passively watching Gilligan's Island and The Partridge Family.

Shirky: Oh, that walk down memory lane is painful. Somehow, watching television became a part-time job for every citizen in the developed world. But once we stop thinking of all that time as individual minutes to be whiled away and start thinking of it as a social asset that can be harnessed, it all looks very different. The buildup of this free time among the world's educated population—maybe a trillion hours per year—is a new resource. It's what I refer to as the cognitive surplus.

Pink: A surplus that post-TV media—blogs, wikis, and Twitter—can tap for other, often more valuable, uses.

Shirky: That's what's happening. Television was a solitary activity that crowded out other forms of social connection. But the very nature of these new technologies fosters social connection—creating, contributing, sharing. When someone buys a TV, the number of consumers goes up by one, but the number of producers stays the same. When someone buys a computer or mobile phone, the number of consumers and producers both increase by one. This lets ordinary citizens, who've previously been locked out, pool their free time for activities they like and care about. So instead of that free time seeping away in front of the television set, the cognitive surplus is going to be poured into everything from goofy enterprises like lolcats, where people stick captions on cat photos, to serious political activities like Ushahidi.com, where people report human rights abuses.

Pink: Any sense of how much of that giant block of free time is being redirected?

Shirky: We're still in the very early days. So far, it's largely young people who are exploring the alternatives, but already they are having a huge impact. We can do a back-of-the-envelope calculation, for example, using Wikipedia, to see how far we still have to go. All the articles, edits, and arguments about articles and edits represent around 100 million hours of human labor. That's a lot of time. But remember: Americans watch about 200 billion hours of TV every year.

Pink: Amazing. All the time that people devote to Wikipedia—which that guy considered weird and wasteful—is really a tiny portion of our worldwide cognitive surplus. It's less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the total.

Shirky: And it represents a very different and very powerful type of motivation.

Pink: Exactly. Too many people hold a very narrow view of what motivates us. They believe that the only way to get us moving is with the jab of a stick or the promise of a carrot. But if you look at over 50 years of research on motivation, or simply scrutinize your own behavior, it's pretty clear human beings are more complicated than that.

Shirky: That's for sure.

Pink: We have a biological drive. We eat when we're hungry, drink when we're thirsty, have sex to satisfy our carnal urges. We also have a second drive—we respond to rewards and punishments in our environment. But what we've forgotten—and what the science shows—is that we also have a third drive. We do things because they're interesting, because they're engaging, because they're the right things to do, because they contribute to the world. The problem is that, especially in our organizations, we stop at that second drive. We think the only reason people do productive things is to snag a carrot or avoid a stick. But that's just not true. Our third drive—our intrinsic motivation—can be even more powerful.

Shirky: That's what's behind people who are writing fan fiction or organizing ride-sharing online or using mobile phones to report on natural disasters or political upheaval. They're motivated by something other than money.

Pink: But when the most powerful medium in the world was geared around consumption and passivity rather than creation and sharing, that kind of motivation often remained latent.

Shirky: Right—because television crowded out other forms of social engagement. Look, behavior is motivation filtered through opportunity. So if you see people behaving in new ways, like with Wikipedia and whatnot, it's very unlikely that their motivations have changed, because human nature doesn't change that quickly. It's quite likely that the opportunities have changed.

Pink: Think about open source software in general—whether it's Linux or Apache. Suppose I'd gone to an economist or management consultant 25 years ago and said, "I've got a cool new business model for making software. Here's how it works: A bunch of intrinsically motivated people around the world get together to do technically sophisticated stuff for no pay. And then after working really hard, they give away their product for free. Trust me: It's going to be huge."

Shirky: He would have thought you were insane. When we lacked the ability to efficiently connect and collaborate with each other, that intrinsic motivation often didn't surface. So we assumed that productive, public activities revolved around extrinsic motivation and external rewards. And we assumed that all rewards were substitutable for all other rewards. So I can pay you more or I can praise you or I can put a Lucite brick on your desk and it all works the same way.

Pink: Which is nonsense. Both of us cite research from University of Rochester psychologist Edward Deci showing that if you give people a contingent reward—as in "if you do this, then you'll get that"—for something they find interesting, they can become less interested in the task. When Deci took people who enjoyed solving complicated puzzles for fun and began paying them if they did the puzzles, they no longer wanted to play with those puzzles during their free time. And the science is overwhelming that for creative, conceptual tasks, those if-then rewards rarely work and often do harm.

Shirky: You talk about the laws of behavioral physics working differently in practice from what we believe in theory.

Pink: Yes, often these outside motivators can give us less of what we want and more of what we don't want. Think about that study of Israeli day care centers, which we both write about. When day care centers fined parents for being late to pick up their kids, the result was that more parents ended up coming late. People no longer felt a social obligation to behave well.

Shirky: If you assume bad faith from the average participant, you'll probably get it. In social media, the design principle that has worked remarkably well is to treat good faith as the normal case and to regard defections from that as essentially a special case to be solved.

Pink: Same goes with organizations. We don't realize how much our unexamined assumptions take us to radically different places. If I'm running an organization and my starting premise about human beings is that people are fundamentally passive and inert, that they won't do a damn thing unless I threaten them with a stick or entice them with a carrot, that takes me down one road. But I think that's the wrong premise, the wrong theory of human nature.

Shirky: The power of the default setting.

Pink: I think our nature is to be active and engaged. I've never seen a 2-year-old or a 4-year-old who's not active and engaged. That's how we are out of the box. And if you begin with this presumption, you create much more open, flexible arrangements that almost inevitably lead to greater satisfaction for individuals and great innovation for organizations.

Shirky: I agree.

Pink: You say something else about organizations that I found especially compelling—about their instinct for self-perpetuation.

Shirky: Well, organizations that are founded to solve problems end up committed to the preservation of the problems. So Trentway-Wagar, an Ontario-based bus company, sues PickupPal, an online ride-sharing service, because T-W isn't committed to solving transportation problems. It's committed to solving transportation problems with buses. In the media world, Britannica is now committed to making reference works that can't easily be referred to, and the music industry is now distributing music that can't easily be shared because new ways of distributing music undermine the old business model.

Pink: Let's go back to the cognitive surplus for a moment. What are the stakes for businesses, and what, if anything, can they do about it?

Shirky: Businesses need to recognize that this isn't going away, that there's a tremendous resource—the cognitive surplus of millions—being coordinated using networks. One of the things that my book is trying to do, and your book as well, is to show that there are forces at work that we often don't see and that if organizations can tap into these forces, those organizations can actually benefit.

Pink: You haven't had television since you were 17. How have you deployed your own cognitive surplus?

Shirky: I read. Back in the 1990s, when I was a kid with a bachelor's degree in painting and a career in theater, I came across the Internet, which blew my mind on contact. I had 100 hours a month to surf through engineering documents, histories of the Internet, Perl manuals, mailing lists, and so on. By substituting my browser for 3rd Rock From the Sun, I was able to figure out the stuff I've made my living on since.

Pink: One final question, which I have to ask: What's your favorite Gilligan's Island episode?

Shirky: The one where they nearly get off the island and then Gilligan messes up and they don't.

Pink: [Laughs] Mine too!