Lighioana Profile Joined March 2010 Norway 466 Posts Last Edited: 2010-08-12 06:57:42 #1 I want TL opinion on what's best when you want to get units in the opponent base.



Here are the facts:



The overlord needs the Ventral Sacs upgrade which gives the ability to carry and drop ground units.

200 minerals

200 gas

130 seconds to research



OPTIONAL:

The overlord can also get the Pneumatized Carapace upgrade which gives it more speed.

100 minerals

100 gas

60 seconds to research





In order to achieve the same with the Nyndus you need to make Nyndus network.

150 minerals

200 gas

50 seconds to build



Then you need to build the Nyndus worm

100 minerals

100 gas

20 seconds to build



So, my question is, why would a person in the right mind would chose to go overlord drop instead of Nyndus?



The time needed to research drop is A LOT more (read that as about twice) then the time needed to build the Nyndus network and the worm. Resource wise, the Nyndus costs a bit more by a negligent amount. Also, if you go drop you also need the speed other wise most of your overlord would die, which is an extra cost.



I feel like Blizzard should lower the research time of the Pneumatized Carapace upgrade if they want people to use it. And forgive me nothing for I truly meant it all

bombcar Profile Joined April 2010 United States 68 Posts #2 You can pack more units into a large number of overlords? You can run some decoys and not get hit? You can drop faster? You can "leap" over static walls with units that are already in the area?

michaelthe Profile Joined February 2010 United States 359 Posts #3 Your analysis is stunning and correct sir. If your goal is get a unit into the enemies base Nydus seems the way to go!



Now, if carrying multiple loads is important, the drop not being scouted/destroyed instantly, needing the ability to also evac well, having the ability to take island expos, having the threat of drops remain are issues at all, we might have to reconsider.

ALPINA Profile Joined May 2010 3791 Posts Last Edited: 2010-08-12 07:07:31 #4 On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can pack more units into a large number of overlords? You can run some decoys and not get hit? You can drop faster? You can "leap" over static walls with units that are already in the area?



+ you can drop units pretty much instant while from nydus worm they came 2 in a second.

+ nydus can be shut down very easily if scouted. Keep in mind most good players put pylons/depots around their base.

+ you need 100/100 EACH time you want to make nydus while drops are free when you have drop upgrade.





Also most of time you don't rush to get drop or nydus so 1 or 2 minutes does not change anything imo.



+ you can drop units pretty much instant while from nydus worm they came 2 in a second.+ nydus can be shut down very easily if scouted. Keep in mind most good players put pylons/depots around their base.+ you need 100/100 EACH time you want to make nydus while drops are free when you have drop upgrade.Also most of time you don't rush to get drop or nydus so 1 or 2 minutes does not change anything imo. You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity

Lighioana Profile Joined March 2010 Norway 466 Posts #5 On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can pack more units into a large number of overlords?

Nyndus can transport an infinite amount of units.



Nyndus can transport an infinite amount of units. On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can run some decoys and not get hit?

You still loose 1-2 overlords which again, is more expensive then the Nyndus alternative.



You still loose 1-2 overlords which again, is more expensive then the Nyndus alternative. On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can drop faster?

If the opponent sees the Nyndus worm or the Overlords and moves the units in time you don't have a chance in both of the scenarios.



If the opponent sees the Nyndus worm or the Overlords and moves the units in time you don't have a chance in both of the scenarios. On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can "leap" over static walls with units that are already in the area?

But that's another big advantage of the Nyndus worm. They can be in your base protecting and then instantly get in the opponent base. But that's another big advantage of the Nyndus worm. They can be in your base protecting and then instantly get in the opponent base. And forgive me nothing for I truly meant it all

Lighioana Profile Joined March 2010 Norway 466 Posts #6 On August 12 2010 16:05 Alpina wrote:

+ you can drop units pretty much instant while from nydus worm they came 2 in a second.

+ nydus can be shut down very easily if scouted. Keep in mind most good players put pylons/depots around their base.

+ you need 100/100 EACH time you want to make nydus while drops are free when you have drop upgrade.



I feel that is the same for the overlord drop. If he has the units in place half of them will die while dropping from the overlord. With the Nyndus you can retreat quickly if necessary.



I feel that is the same for the overlord drop. If he has the units in place half of them will die while dropping from the overlord. With the Nyndus you can retreat quickly if necessary. On August 12 2010 16:05 Alpina wrote:

Also most of time you don't rush to get drop or nydus so 1 or 2 minutes does not change anything imo.

But 60 seconds is the difference between him, for example, having a colossus or not. But 60 seconds is the difference between him, for example, having a colossus or not. And forgive me nothing for I truly meant it all

Darpinion Profile Joined January 2010 United States 210 Posts #7 On August 12 2010 16:07 Lighioana wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can pack more units into a large number of overlords?

Nyndus can transport an infinite amount of units.



Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can run some decoys and not get hit?

You still loose 1-2 overlords which again, is more expensive then the Nyndus alternative.



Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can drop faster?

If the opponent sees the Nyndus worm or the Overlords and moves the units in time you don't have a chance in both of the scenarios.



Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can "leap" over static walls with units that are already in the area?

But that's another big advantage of the Nyndus worm. They can be in your base protecting and then instantly get in the opponent base. Nyndus can transport an infinite amount of units.You still loose 1-2 overlords which again, is more expensive then the Nyndus alternative.If the opponent sees the Nyndus worm or the Overlords and moves the units in time you don't have a chance in both of the scenarios.But that's another big advantage of the Nyndus worm. They can be in your base protecting and then instantly get in the opponent base.



It isn't "instantly", they have to be inside of the nydus network and trying to come out of a nydus network is slow slow going. Units can sit outside of they network and just snipe units one-by-one as they come out. It isn't "instantly", they have to be inside of the nydus network and trying to come out of a nydus network is slow slow going. Units can sit outside of they network and just snipe units one-by-one as they come out. "A well formulated question is more important than the answer." -Albert Einstein

Prophecy3 Profile Joined March 2010 Canada 223 Posts #8 I'm Terran, and honestly, drops are alot more worrisome mid to late game. you have enough time and usually enough vision to take out nydus'. When being aggressive I would have to say drops for straight overall utility.



But I feel Nydus' are 100% underused as is. especially on large maps zerg needs to connect bases over huge distances, which could be done instantly with nydus. That's much faster then any amount of creep. They both have uses.



Ovies are more tactical, Nydus is more strategic. Both have their place, but for straight up aggression it's wishful thinking to think a nydus bomb is going to work more often than drops. Ignorance is Bliss? Indifferance is Atrocity.

NeoLearner Profile Blog Joined January 2010 Belgium 1786 Posts #9



Opponent has not seen you before you drop.



Overlord drop: You drop 5 (or as many as you want really) overlords worth of food. Opponent has about 5 seconds to see it coming. 3 seconds later he has 40 food roaches units in his base.

If he sees you, you run and loose only the units that die.



Nydus: You drop as much food as you want. Opponent has 20 seconds (build time) to see it coming. 2 seconds later he has 1 units in his base. It takes another 10 seconds to get the 40 food roaches dropped.

If he sees you, you run and loose the units that die and the worm.



Opponent has seen you:



Overlord drop: You run and loose most likely nothing

Nydus: you loose the worm. Which is 100 gas.



Now try to find a good opponent who doesn't do anything for 30 seconds. That's a 2 APM opponent by the way Let's take 2 scenario's.Opponent has not seen you before you drop.Overlord drop: You drop 5 (or as many as you want really) overlords worth of food. Opponent has about 5 seconds to see it coming. 3 seconds later he has 40 food roaches units in his base.If he sees you, you run and loose only the units that die.Nydus: You drop as much food as you want. Opponent has 20 seconds (build time) to see it coming. 2 seconds later he has 1 units in his base. It takes another 10 seconds to get the 40 food roaches dropped.If he sees you, you run and loose the units that die and the worm.Opponent has seen you:Overlord drop: You run and loose most likely nothingNydus: you loose the worm. Which is 100 gas.Now try to find a good opponent who doesn't do anything for 30 seconds. That's a 2 APM opponent by the way Bankai - Correlation does not imply causation

SpiciestZerg Profile Joined August 2010 United States 154 Posts #10 On August 12 2010 16:07 Lighioana wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can pack more units into a large number of overlords?

Nyndus can transport an infinite amount of units. Nyndus can transport an infinite amount of units.



But it takes a couple seconds for the overlords to drop all the units, and you should have the enough overlords to carry a full army.

A Worm on the other hand can take nearly 30 seconds unloading an army.



But it takes a couple seconds for the overlords to drop all the units, and you should have the enough overlords to carry a full army.A Worm on the other hand can take nearly 30 seconds unloading an army. On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can run some decoys and not get hit?

You still loose 1-2 overlords which again, is more expensive then the Nyndus alternative. [/QUOTE]



Its only minerals. The 100 gas of each worm is much more valuable.



Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 15:59 bombcar wrote:

You can drop faster?

If the opponent sees the Nyndus worm or the Overlords and moves the units in time you don't have a chance in both of the scenarios. If the opponent sees the Nyndus worm or the Overlords and moves the units in time you don't have a chance in both of the scenarios.



Not true at all. Unless he has heavy anti air it will barely scratch your doom drop.







IMO: Nydus worms are only useful late game defensively for instant transport across the map.



oh also the cost of overlord speed should not be added to the cost of drop in your calculation because time-wise it doesnt matter if you have at least 2 hatches, and cost-wise you're bound to get it anyways for scouting/anti-harass You still loose 1-2 overlords which again, is more expensive then the Nyndus alternative. [/QUOTE]Its only minerals. The 100 gas of each worm is much more valuable.Not true at all. Unless he has heavy anti air it will barely scratch your doom drop.IMO: Nydus worms are only useful late game defensively for instant transport across the map.oh also the cost of overlord speed should not be added to the cost of drop in your calculation because time-wise it doesnt matter if you have at least 2 hatches, and cost-wise you're bound to get it anyways for scouting/anti-harass The answer to all life's questions is more zerglings.

ALPINA Profile Joined May 2010 3791 Posts Last Edited: 2010-08-12 07:27:28 #11 On August 12 2010 16:10 Lighioana wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 16:05 Alpina wrote:

+ you can drop units pretty much instant while from nydus worm they came 2 in a second.

+ nydus can be shut down very easily if scouted. Keep in mind most good players put pylons/depots around their base.

+ you need 100/100 EACH time you want to make nydus while drops are free when you have drop upgrade.



I feel that is the same for the overlord drop. If he has the units in place half of them will die while dropping from the overlord. With the Nyndus you can retreat quickly if necessary.



Show nested quote +

On August 12 2010 16:05 Alpina wrote:

Also most of time you don't rush to get drop or nydus so 1 or 2 minutes does not change anything imo.

But 60 seconds is the difference between him, for example, having a colossus or not. I feel that is the same for the overlord drop. If he has the units in place half of them will die while dropping from the overlord. With the Nyndus you can retreat quickly if necessary.But 60 seconds is the difference between him, for example, having a colossus or not.



With drops you can drop units, snipe key buildings and load units in OLs pretty much instanly and retreat most of time, while you practically cannot do that with nydus because loading/unloading takes a lot of time, unless you nydus on desert oasis and enemy army if in the center of map, but on most maps retreating with nydus is pretty much impossible.



With drops you can drop units, snipe key buildings and load units in OLs pretty much instanly and retreat most of time, while you practicallydo that with nydus because loading/unloading takes a lot of time, unless you nydus on desert oasis and enemy army if in the center of map, but on most maps retreating with nydus is pretty much impossible. You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity

Pwncore Profile Joined April 2010 Canada 15 Posts #12 Well, Within the context of ONLY getting units into the base, Nydus is better in that there is much less risk involved. However, dropping with overlords gives you the advantage of dropping where you please instead of bursting in from a hidden corner - Drop some by the tech labs, drop some behind the mineral line, drop some behind those clustered depos. The extra seconds you get by dropping all over, or behind a cluster of buildings can make a difference depending on the simcity. "^___________________________________^" - CoachRoosterBoss

RobRoy2501 Profile Blog Joined June 2008 United States 177 Posts #13 Zerg need gas. Losing a few overlords is worth saving the 100 gas that you need for each worm.



A worm takes 20 seconds to START to unload. Its true that you can stop a drop if you have good scouting/reaction but it is much easier to stop a worm, especially in lower leagues where the worm shouts to let people know its coming since they might not be watching the minimap too close.



Small drops/multi harass drops would start to cost huge amounts with a worm in 2-3 places 2-3 times in one game.



You may get the OV speed upgrade anyway(I know everyone plays different, but I always like to get it just for better scouting and ovie safety).



I think there are times when the worm is good but its not always the best choice. You seem to be thinking of it as mostly just a one time drop of your whole army but that isn't the only part of it.



Depends on matchup/build/map, etc. The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled. -Plutarch

Phanekim Profile Joined April 2003 United States 766 Posts #14 overlords allow you to mini harass. they both have their uses. i think olord is more versatile and nydus is vastly underused. i like cheese

ZannX Profile Joined August 2010 United States 70 Posts #15 A nydus worm makes a map-wide global sound when it's being created regardless of if you see it or not. An overlord drop doesn't have to be 100% stealth... most of the time it's just to bypass an inconvenient choke. You also never only bring loaded overlords. I personally bring plenty of empty ones as decoys to be killed first.



For a single drop nydus may be ok (assuming it's undetected), but I think in the long run the static cost of the overlord research is the better option.

Jermstuddog Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 2215 Posts Last Edited: 2010-08-12 07:53:34 #16 Overlords give more midgame harassing options through banelings and infestors. Doesn't cost any gas past the initial research, and especially when doing a doom drop, plenty of overlords are usually available so as to avoid pop capping yourself.



Nydus is more of an endgame gut punch when used properly. You should set up 3-4 worms at all his bases in quick succession so you can catch your opponents army out of position, the major drawback being that 4 worms takes 600 gas, you can't really afford this and an army capable of doing real damage until you have a major economic advantage.



Also, 20 seconds is an ungodly amount of time to be building something in the middle of your opponents base. As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro

Pokedude1013 Profile Joined August 2010 116 Posts #17 It's not just about the money. The nydus network, when created, makes a loud shrieking noise which tells all players ingame that a nydus has spawned, and every half-decent player will check their base afterward.



Nydus should be used in situations where your opponent cannot stop you even if he knows about it, which pending situation is pretty rare. Even if you pop it in somewhere in their base when their army is away the workers can actually kill it before it comes up.



Overlord drops are more expensive but they are more stealth-able Get out

aznhockeyboy16 Profile Blog Joined July 2009 United States 528 Posts #18 if your goal is to win the game quickly, then yes, nydus is better, but overlord drop has much more flexibility in what you're doing. you can drop banelings directly onto mineral lines, directly onto balls of units, "sneak" a much larger force than you can with a nydus worm, and once you show that you have drop you can fake drop things to pull his army out of position.

me_viet Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Australia 1299 Posts Last Edited: 2010-08-12 08:09:04 #19 Don't forget, Zerg is usually on 2 bases, so dual research of overlord upgrades is fine. At the very least, your overlords become faster which is VERY good. Don't think i've ever won a game w/o oves speed (except ZvZ).



EDIT: oh, and Nydus network can be scouted. Drop research can't be.

Bibzball Profile Blog Joined May 2010 France 237 Posts #20 Yeah thats pretty much it even if you need many overlords to do a nice drop, nydus worms are just too easy to counter. I feel like there should be an upgrade which speeds things up, sthing like 10 sec instead of 20 and / or unloads units faster (just like the carrier upgrade btw) DANIEL ! GET OUT OF THE WATER !!!

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