You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You: Hi

Stranger: not a f

Stranger: sorry

You: i dont care

You: lol

Stranger: what other interests did you put apart from that?

You: guns, politics, food

Stranger: got any guns?

You: Once so far

You: Or do mean, do I have guns? lol

Stranger: yeah

You: I have 4

You: You?

Stranger: nah zero

Stranger: what guns you got?

You: A Mosin-Nagant M39, a Hi-Point 995TS, a CZ SP01 Phantom, and a J.C. Higgins shotgun

Stranger: what's your favourite

You: I think the Hi-Point and CZ are my favorites

You: But they are all good guns

Stranger: cool

Stranger: the russian one must be cool

Stranger: because it's so classic

You: It is

You: It's extra cool actually

You: Because it's one of the ones that got captured by the Finnish during the Winter War

You: And they reworked it and put it back in service

You: Somehow, it found it's way to me.

You: If guns could talk, no?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: that's interesting

Stranger: wonder which poor serf had that gun in the first place?

You: I dunno

You: Hey probably didn't give it up voluntarily though

You: lol

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: probably had an exceptionally shitty life

Stranger: to be honest

You: Yeah

You: War is shit

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: living in 1920s and '30s russia then dying in the snow

You: Soviet Russia sucked balls

You: Unless you were in charge then it was awesome lol

Stranger: definitely in the 30s and 40s and 50s it would have been horrible

You: yeah

You: it seems the USA is having some similar problems now to what the USSR did before it collapsed too

You: Kind of scary

Stranger: im sure it's not that bad

You: Not yet

You: I hope it doesn't get that bad

You: But we already have the wars of aggression, reduction of civil rights, mass printing of money

You: Increase in prices

You: Almost half the population is on some kind of government assistane

You: I think it's a matter of time before it gets fixed or breaks.

You: What do you think?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: still a lot of money there though

Stranger: it might get poorer

Stranger: but it can afford to

You: doesn't have to though

You: know what i mean?

Stranger: well

Stranger: you can either give more money to the poor and try to elevate them out of poverty

Stranger: which makes the middle and upper classes poorer

You: right

Stranger: or you can just leave them for dead

Stranger: which makes them poorer

You: I don't think it has to be that way

You: Poverty was at it's lowest in the USA's history just before welfare programs were introduced

Stranger: when was that?

You: When you take money from middle class people and give it to poor people, you just make more poor people

You: In the 60's

You: And when you give poor people too much assistance, it encourages them to stay poor

You: I have nothing against helping poor people.

You: But I think there are better ways to do it than just giving them a monthly check.

You: You could offer them job training for industries that need more people for example

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: well another thing is

You: Plus I think it's wrong to steal money from people and give it to other people

You: Even if you are the government

You: It discourages people from being productive

Stranger: i disagree

Stranger: i think it's disgusting that so many people earn millions in the same country where others live in slums

Stranger: because they manipulated a system

You: What about the people who earned that money honestly? Would you punish them too?

Stranger: how can you earn millions of dollars honestly?

Stranger: you can't

You: Of course you can

Stranger: you could just say those people are stealing from others

Stranger: what, bankers and business tycoons?

You: If you provide a service to people that they find valuable, they will give you money. The most valuable goods and services get the most money.

You: It's like voting for who gives the best products

You: So most of the time, people are rich because other people value what they do

You: Now, the bankers I would agree are not honest

You: But is, say, Mark Zuckerberg a bad man?

Stranger: but the people who work in coca cola and mcdonalds are honest?

You: He invented Facebook. A lot of people like that and use it, so he made money because he provided a good people like.

Stranger: what did zuckerberg ever do to earn millions?

Stranger: he never worked much harder than a lot of people

Stranger: most people

You: I'm sure it's no easy task to make something like Facebook.

Stranger: it's just a simple website, there have been others before quite similar

Stranger: and the money from facebook is generated from advertising

You: It seems to me like you think people should be millionaires for digging holes and cleaning windows, or conversely, nobody should be millionaires at all, even if they provide valuable goods and services.

Stranger: and massive businesses giving money

You: That advertising money would not be there if people did not like and use facebook

You: Suppose I make a bicycle, and I offer it for sale for $100.

Stranger: actually if everyone earned quite a similar amount, someone who "digs holes" as someone who manipulates people with advertising, yeah, that would be a lot better and there wouldn't be poor people

You: And people like my bicycle, so many people buy it.

You: Milllions of people buy my bicycle.

You: I now have a lot of money. I have provided jobs to people who can make bicycles, and all the people who make tools for making bicycles, and all the people who provide services and goods to those people as well.

You: Am I a bad person because I provided a valuable good and made money doing it?

Stranger: and yet you took a gigantic sum of the money

Stranger: i can't believe you think corporations and advertising is an honest game full of chirpy people just providing a great service

You: I didn't "take" anything, the people who bought the bicycles valued them more than the $100, otherwise, they would not have bought them.

You: I'm not saying corporations are saints, I'm saying not all corporations are evil money grubbing machines designed to keep everyone poor

You: If corporations did that then nobody could buy their goods!

Stranger: designed to keep themselves rich

You: You would have them make a business that keeps them poor?

Stranger: wait

You: There's no sense in that. It indicates a business that is poorly run, or not valuable.

Stranger: you said the motivation/aim is providing a good service

You: Yes

Stranger: not making money

You: That is also a motivation

You: But it's hard to make money if you provide a shitty service constantly

Stranger: hang on

You: Therefore you must provide a service people value

Stranger: giving yourself a gigantic cut of the profits is what im talking about

Stranger: why not, when people start to earn far more than they need, tax them heavily?

You: Because that's stealing.

You: Stealing is wrong.

Stranger: stealing?

You: Taxation is stealing.

Stranger: hahaha

You: Let me explain.

Stranger: really don't bother

Stranger: not trying to be rude but i wont agree

You: Tell you what

You: I'll explain, and if it makes no sense still, then you can disagree.

Stranger: i'm sure it will make sense in a way but not in a way i agree with

You: We'll see

You: Ok, let me first ask you, what is stealing?

Stranger: false dichotomy detected

Stranger: im sorry, i wont engage

You: You haven't even heard my arguement, and you are already invalidating it

You: Dont you think that's a bit dishonest?

Stranger: no

Stranger: i've sensed that you're trying to lure me into saying "stealing is when you take something that doesn't belong to you"

You: That's what it is! lol

You: What else could it be?

Stranger: yes

Stranger: then you'll apply that to the idea of taxation

Stranger: as if it's that simple

You: Well, what is taxation?

You: You tell me

Stranger: it's taking a percentage of income/money to fund the government

You: ok

Stranger: the most important part of funding the government is that it helps the dying, weak, starving

Stranger: of which there are billions

You: Ok, I disagree with that last point, but we'll put that aside for now

You: Let me ask you another question

You: What happens to people who don't pay taxes?

Stranger: not sure exactly

Stranger: investigated, fined, arrested, something i'm sure

You: They get arrested

You: What happens if they resist arrest?

Stranger: what, in the united states?

You: anywhere really

Stranger: i don't know, the police probably kill them :)

You: Right

You: So

You: The government demands you give them money. If you don't the put you in a cage. If you attempt to defend yourself, they kill you.

You: Is that not the same as a robber pointing a gun at you and demanding your wallet on threat of death?

Stranger: no

You: How?

Stranger: the way you phrased that was misleading

Stranger: "the government demands you give them money"

Stranger: actually, they take a percentage of wealth generated

You: right

Stranger: which is never even your money is it?

You: So you mean to tell me

You: All money belongs to the government

Stranger: doesn't it?

Stranger: that's not exactly what i was getting at

Stranger: but i think it does

You: Ok,

You: so if all money belongs to the government

You: That means the government owns all property in the country

Stranger: why?

You: If the government owns all property in the country, then it owns the work of all the people who created that property

You: If it owns that work, then it owns the people

You: And we are all slaves to the government, no?

Stranger: i don't understand the first point that the government owns all property

You: All property is traded or created in exchange for other property, or money, yes?

Stranger: money is a token or a representation of wealth

You: Yes

Stranger: for example

Stranger: a banana

You: But you said the money belongs to the government

Stranger: yes, the money

Stranger: not the wealth or the items they are exchanged for

You: Let's say you have $10 of my money

You: And you buy $10 in beer

You: Do I have the right to claim that beer as mine, since you bought it with my money?

Stranger: it depends on the context, i'm not really sure

Stranger: did i steal your money or what?

Stranger: or did you give me it to buy beer?

You: Well, if you are the government, you sure as hell did lol

Stranger: lol

You: BTW, the money in the USA is created by the Federal Reserve Bank, not the government

Stranger: i've heard that

You: The government has a law that says only Federal Reserve Notes are accepted as valid money to pay for taxes

Stranger: not sure exactly how it works

You: You should read about it, it's really interesting.

Stranger: i heard something a few years ago

You: The funny thing is, the US Constitution says that only Gold and Silver are valid money

Stranger: but it was a conspiracy theory video so i'm not sure how trustworthy it was

You: So technically, the Federal Reserve law is unconstitutional

Stranger: yeah and they abandoned the gold standard in the 60s or something right?

You: Some conspiracy theory videos are good and others are crappy, you just have to do the research yourself

You: In 1971 if I remember correctly

Stranger: oh

You: But that's unconstitutional

You: If there had been an ammendment saying something like, "Money other than gold and silver is also valid" then there would not be any illegality

You: But that is not the case

Stranger: do they still make amendments?

You: In order for an amendment to take place, the congress must vote on it by a large majority

You: Something like over 75% I think

You: Then that is handed to all the states

You: Then the states decide on whether or not to approve it

You: If they all approve it then it is now an amendment, if not, then it fails.

You: This is because the Constitution is like a contract between the people, the states, and the federal government that specifically states what the federal government is allowed to do

You: Anything that is not expressly permitted in the Constitution, the Federal government is prohibited from doing. Those powers are reserved to the people.

You: There is no authority in the constitution for the Federal Government to institute an official money based on bank notes, and this is also expressly forbidden to the states as well

Stranger: so since they've done that against the laws of the government, why don't the members of the senate or whatever speak up about it?

You: Submitted by john2k on Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:20.

You've come to the best place to ask about this and we are more than happy to help.

Your questions alone show that you do not completely understand the Constitution. But, do not take that comment in a bad way - many of us have only learned these things recently or in the past few years as well.

"this doesn't prohibit the printing of unbacked paper money does it?"

and

"can anybody tell me where it says that the federal government cannot print unbacked paper money in the constitution?"

Notice that I put the words in your quotes, "cannot" and "prohibit", in bold. These are the key points in regards to your misunderstanding of the Constitution.

The Constitution is NOT a list of what the federal government cannot do. It is NOT a list of prohibitions on the federal government.

The Constitution IS a list of what the federal government is authorized to do, with ALL ELSE being DENIED to it by default. The absense of specific constitutional authorization for anything means that the federal government is denied/prohibited by default.

Amendments 9 & 10 are probably the clearest and most simple explanation of that point:

AMENDMENT IX

RIGHTS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

AMENDMENT X

POWERS RETAINED BY THE STATES AND THE PEOPLE

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

About the money issue, take the following from the Constitution:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.

Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt.

So, from that we have:

1. The federal government can coin money.

2. States cannot coin money.

3. States have the authority of determining what can be used as a tender in payment of debts by default, because the federal government does not have that specific constitutional authorization.

4. States are then prohibited by the Constitution from making any Thing but gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debts.

You: Ooops copied way more than I meant to

You: Sorry

Stranger: don't worry

You: The reason the senators dont speak up about

You: Is because they benefit from the Federal Reserve

You: Since the "Fed" can just print up money at will, and because they falsely leigslated that FRN's are the only legal currency, the have fooled the people into accepting a money that is easily inflated

You: Which harms the economy

You: The Fed prints money when the government needs it. The government uses that money before the devaluation is realized in the economy. By the time that money is passed down, the economy has adjusted to the excess money and increased prices

You: But the increase in money supply is not distributed evenly amongst all actors, so people's purchasing ability is dramatically reduced.

You: This is how the government funds large social spending, and wars of aggression.

Stranger: and the government pay the federal reserve for the money too right?

You: Technically, yes.

You: But the debt isn't really valid is it?

Stranger: i'm not sure

Stranger: can't get my head around it

You: According to the law, this is unlawful money, right?

You: So any debt based on that money is unlawful too. At least I think so.

Stranger: just trying to remember what this video was claiming about the federal reserve

Stranger: about 5 years ago

You: I'm just going by what the law is lol

Stranger: yeah well if it's right that the government has to be based on the constitution and make changes based on that then i can see what you're saying

You: Right

You: And since the government is supposed to exist because of this Constitution, which is a contract, then it must follow the terms of that contract

You: Or it is unlawful

You: Pretty crazy huh?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: i'm wondering what you think they should do then, based on that

Stranger: because i can see what you're saying

Stranger: do you think they should cancel all debt with the reserve or something?

You: Well, until more people realize they are being unlawful, they will continue in this way because it benefits them

You: I think that the debt should be cancelled

You: Since it is fraudulent

You: And debts between private people could be renegotiated

You: It seems fair to me

Stranger: i would have to become an economist and try to understand what effect that would have in order to make a judgement on that

You: There's a website that has a lot of good books on economics for free

You: That's how I figured a lot of this out

You: Because I wanted to know more about the economy and debt lol

You: You want the website?

Stranger: sure

You: mises.org

You: You can download the books in PDF or ebook

Stranger: i probably won't read the books because i have a lot of books i don't read that i am supposed to read, already

You: Some of them are narrarated too

Stranger: to be honest

You: lol me too

You: I can suggest a really simple one that's a quick read

You: Easy to understand

You: Essentials of Economics by Faustino Ballve

You: He was a spanish economist

You: Smart guy

You: Anything else you wanted to talk about, or is your brain tired? lol

Stranger: i don't mind

Stranger: thanks for the links and suggestions

You: You are welcome

Stranger: did you remember that this started because we both listed "sex" as our interest?

You: LMAO

Stranger: haha

You: Who would have thought? lol

You: I get pretty turned on by economics though

Stranger: i know

Stranger: oh i can tell

Stranger: haha

You: lol

You: So, how do you feel about taxation now? Now that you know it is theft under threat of violence of a money that belongs to a private institution and is unlawful to use?

You: lol

Stranger: well not necessarily in my country it isn't

Stranger: and i still disagree that it's theft

You: Oh lol

You: Where are you from?

Stranger: i am from the UK

You: I see

You: So, you don't think a group of people threatening violence against you if you do not give them some of your money is theft huh?

Stranger: well

Stranger: it's just the way you say it

Stranger: you know

Stranger: it's like

You: I'm just going by the facts lol

Stranger: coca cola sells $1,000,000 worth of stock or whatever

Stranger: i shouldn't have said stock

Stranger: lol

Stranger: "product" i don't know

You: you mean soda?

Stranger: soda right

Stranger: basically it makes a transaction

You: Right

Stranger: they know there will be a percentage taxed on it

Stranger: it's never "their" money

Stranger: they arrange the price within the context of the taxation

Stranger: same as income isn't it?

Stranger: income tax

You: Of course not, not if the government can demand part of it from you on threat of jail or death it's not your money lol

You: Although it should be

You: If you earned it honestly

You: Suppose I'm Coca Cola ok?

You: And I offer you a can of soda for $1

You: You think that's a good deal. You are thirsty, and like soda. So you give me a $1 and I give you the can.

You: You valued the soda more than the $1.

You: We both are happy.

You: right?

You: So then the government comes to me and says, "If you don't give me 40 cents of that, I will shut down your company and throw you in jail."

Stranger: i would really like a can of coca cola now

Stranger: i wanted a beer when you mentioned that earlier

You: If you were here with me, I would offer you some of mine. lol

Stranger: cheers

You: For free!

You: The government can't tax free yet.

Stranger: omegle's next feature should make it possible to share a beer

You: lol

You: That would be amazing for sure

Stranger: obviously omegle would heavily tax this in order to fund themselves ;)

Stranger: anyway

Stranger: taxation is the context before the transaction, not after, right?

You: Remember, the difference between you buying a coke and the government demanding tax, is that coke isn't pointing a gun at you.

Stranger: haha

Stranger: okay

Stranger: imagine this alternative universe

Stranger: for fun

You: What I meant was, after I make $1 from you, the gov wants a piece of that

Stranger: imagine we all lived in a country where the government did actually rob us at gunpoint

Stranger: and then when we paid up

You: But it does!

Stranger: they gave us a complimentary can of coke

You: LOL

Stranger: not if you're not selling coke

Stranger: haha

Stranger: it's like a science fiction novel right?

You: Uh, "Thanks for the tax money, here's your coke."?

Stranger: yeah

You: lol

Stranger: not even "thanks"

Stranger: they just throw it at you

You: I wouldn't know what to think of that

You: lol

Stranger: okay

Stranger: i just think the way we're looking at this is different

You: So you don't think the government really threatens violence?

Stranger: well it depends, because im not exactly sure what the government does if you don't pay tax, and depends if you think prison is violence

Stranger: which in a way it probably is but that's another issue

You: We went over this, come on man!

You: If you don't pay tax, you get kidnapped and put in jail. If you defend yourself, they kill you!

You: How is that not violence?

Stranger: haha

Stranger: okay

Stranger: cmon

Stranger: just imagine for a second

Stranger: we aren't debating WHETHER paying/not paying taxes should be a crime

Stranger: and we agree it's a crime

Stranger: pretend

Stranger: then that's the government's response to crime, right?

Stranger: same with rapists and thieves etc

You: Right

You: Except a rapist has harmed someone, so the are justly imprisioned to protect soceity

You: And the theif is imprisoned, because the government hates competition

Stranger: haha

You: Now you and me, peaceful people, whom are doing no harm to anybody

You: The gov says to us, "Give us part of your money, or we kill you"

You: Right?

Stranger: no, i think this is where you're not exactly right

Stranger: because

Stranger: just listen for a second

You: The only difference between the gov and the theif is the theif makes no claim to legitimacy, and he does not have a fancy costume.

You: ok

Stranger: with the whole taxes thing, we're discussing whether it should be a crime, whether taxes should exist

Stranger: but when you bring up the imprisonment/violence/killing thing

You: So you agree it's stealing?

Stranger: that's not really the issue we're discussing

Stranger: haha no

Stranger: that's our point we're discussing

You: ok

You: set me straight here

Stranger: hmm?

You: We are discussing if taxes should exist, yes?

Stranger: yes

You: Ok

Stranger: not criminal punishment

You: I argue taxes should not exist, because they are stealing, and stealing is immoral.

You: IF the taxes were voluntary, with no threat of violence, then I would have no problem.

Stranger: right

Stranger: but the point you keep raising about kidnapping us if we don't do it

You: Right!

Stranger: that's actually just standard criminal punishment right?

Stranger: that's not specific to taxes

You: Are you a criminal for resisting a thief?

Stranger: it depends what the laws of your country determine is a criminal and a thief

Stranger: i totally understand that you think

Stranger: the government is the thief

Stranger: but the law doesn't

You: Ok

You: The purpose of government is to protect people from having their rights infringed upon, yes?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: i guess that is a part of it

You: Do we have the right to own property?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: man

Stranger: i know you think it's against human rights

Stranger: i get that

Stranger: but the laws of our countries dont think taxation is criminal

Stranger: they think the opposite

You: So how does it make sense that the government says, "Give me part of your property so I can protect your property, or I will kill you!"

Stranger: okay

Stranger: first of all

Stranger: can we make it a little less emotional

Stranger: with the killing thing

Stranger: can we just say "that's the law"

You: I'm not being emotional, that's just the facts.

Stranger: alright but we don't say that the government says "don't sell heroin or i will kill you!"

Stranger: we say it's against the law

You: But it's true too, isn't it?

You: If a heroin dealer resists arrest, he will be killed, no?

Stranger: it's true in a way but it's a bit dishonest

You: I agree it's dishonest.

You: I think it's dishonest for the government to say it's just a law, when what it really amounts to is an opinion with a gun behind it.

Stranger: we're not debating the nature of the law or the police

Stranger: yeah that's a really interesting point

Stranger: and i think there's a lot of truth in it

Stranger: but it's not really what we're talking about with taxes

You: oh

Stranger: unless the taxation thing

You: What are we talking about then?

Stranger: is tied to your belief about laws not being a valid system

You: I think laws are valid

Stranger: we're talking about whether it SHOULD be the law, not the nature of laws themselves

You: Just not laws that violate rights

You: Ah I see.

You: I think it should be a law. Taxation that is.

You: *not

You: NOT

You: lol

Stranger: TOO LATE MAN

Stranger: case closed

You: Aw fuck it all

Stranger: i've won you over

You: Nope! I recant!

You: No!

Stranger: welcome to the democrat party

You: Noooo

Stranger: haha

You: I want to be an Anarcho-Capitalist!

Stranger: that's what they all say

Stranger: can't go back on your word though can you

Stranger: that's a law now

You: It's clearly a type.

Stranger: is that another type?

You: Yes.

You: >_>

Stranger: cool

You: Seriously though

You: Laws that violate rights I think are invalid

Stranger: fair enough

Stranger: that's a noble view and i respect that

You: Thank you

You: So

You: One last question

Stranger: yes

You: Do you think I should be put in jail or shot for not paying taxes? Would you pull the trigger or close the handcuffs?

Stranger: i don't think anyone should be shot

Stranger: i have not really got a good idea what happens to people who don't pay taxes

You: They go to jail, eventually

Stranger: it may be prison, it may be something else, it depends on what exactly they do right?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: if i was a police officer

Stranger: and i was told "go and arrest this man"

Stranger: i would probably do it

Stranger: sorry sir

You: But you aren't.

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: so?

You: Well, that's kind of skirting the question isn't it?

Stranger: i wouldn't arrest you if i wasn't a police officer

You: Ah ha!

Stranger: trying to be honest

Stranger: really

You: Ok, that's the ticket!

You: So, you disagree with the government using violence against me. That's fantastic.

You: That is, so long as I am being peaceful btw.

You: Right?

Stranger: no idea where you've reached that conclusion

Stranger: violence how?

You: You told me you would not put me in prison or shoot me for not paying taxes.

Stranger: as a person?

Stranger: as me?

You: Yes you

Stranger: or as a manifestation of my ideal society?

Stranger: i wouldn't, no

You: Ok.

You: I have to go now

You: But I want you to think about that for me ok?

You: :)

Stranger: sure

You: It was nice talking to you!

Stranger: nice talking to you too

Stranger: have a good evening man

You: Peace