Any changes to the classification system must be unanimously agreed by Commonwealth, State and Territory ministers. In South Australia the minister with responsibility for censorship is Attorney-General Michael Atkinson, and he has consistently opposed the introduction of an R rating for computer games.

Mr Atkinson, welcome to The National Interest.

Michael Atkinson: Thank you.

Peter Mares: Why do you oppose the introduction of an R rating and 18+ classification for computer games?

Michael Atkinson: Well I'm opposed to extremely cruel violence or violence being anticipated in interactive games. I'm also opposed to depraved and cruel sexual games. I'm also opposed to games that encourage people with points for drug use, that is the use of illegal drugs. The decision on this game to give it an MA15+ classification and in that sort of Commonwealth Classification Board I'll be appealing against that classification. I think it's wrong, it doesn't surprise me because the Classification Board in Australia does everything to try to get games in under the radar and film generally, but just because the system's not being applied properly, does not mean that the principals in the system are wrong.

Peter Mares: But wouldn't it be better to have an R rating so that then the Classification Board can say, 'Well this is clearly for adults', and consumers would know that. If these games are getting in anyway.

Michael Atkinson: No no, what I want the Classification Board to do is apply the guidelines properly. And I don't want the extremely violent, sexually depraved drug use games in Australia at all, because at the cinema, we can stop people under 18 going in to see outrageous movies. We can't stop these interactive games that are extremely violent or depraved getting into the home and then getting into the hands of children. Indeed the interactive games are I think a greater risk than film, because they are interactive, because people aren't just watching passively these horrible things that are happening, they are participating in them, they are doing them.

Peter Mares: Still, DVDs can also come into the home with R classification. You know, parents can bring home an R-rated DVD, and then decide whether or not the kids get to watch it.

Michael Atkinson: That's true, but it's not a reason to surrender. We're talking about games such as the Japanese game Rape Play, where one scores points for raping a mother and daughter.

Peter Mares: But as I understand, that's not allowed, that's not on sale anywhere outside Japan, even in countries with R classifications.

Michael Atkinson: Well I wouldn't put it past the Classification Board to make that an R-rated game, frankly, on their previous form. Also we have games where you score points, and the name of this game is Narc, (as in narcotics) and you score points for injecting yourself with drugs. Blitz the League is another game like this, an American football game where you take heroin, speed, LSD, marijuana, and ecstasy, and that of course helps you be a better athlete, and then you could even take a drug in the game to mask your drug use so you pass the drug test. We have a game where the player straps explosives to himself and then blows himself up in a market and scores points for how many people he kills.

Peter Mares: Still, as you say yourself, many of these games are coming in, perhaps not the ones you mention, but ones which you find objectionable, and a recent study by Bond University found that Australian adults support the introduction of R-rating classification and that they use those classifications to determine what to buy for their children.

Michael Atkinson: That was funded by the industry, normally ABC viewers mention that when the industry funds a survey. They preface their mention of the survey.

Peter Mares: Well you've quoted the same survey previously favourably. I'm very happy -

Michael Atkinson: I don't think so. I don't think so. I think what you're engaging in is advocacy for the R18 classification - moving a survey that was paid for by the industry.

Peter Mares: Attorney-General, I'm not advocating anything, I'm inquiring into this issue and I'm asking your opinion. I'm making the point that the industry says from its surveys, let's put it that way, that adults want classification so they can determine what to buy.

Michael Atkinson: Well no that's what the industry wants. The vast majority of Australians has not turned their mind to the question of an R18+ classification for interactive games, it's just not an issue out there in the electorate. Most Australians don't think about it, like me, many of them enjoy playing games such as The Wii, but they're unaware of the extreme violence, depraved sex and the drug use which is available in the interactive game industry, and of course the industry itself wants to make these games. They're running a candidate against me in my seat of Croydon in the coming State election in South Australia and I look forward to the contest, because I rather doubt that they'll get even 1% of the vote, so much for the claim of 90% of Australians favouring what the games industry wants.

Peter Mares:Well we're going to hear from someone from the games industry who I think is organising to have someone stand against you later in the program.

Michael Atkinson: They haven't managed to find anyone eligible to stand yet. That's how popular the proposition is.

Peter Mares: Let me come back to another point though, that if there was an R18+ classification introduced into Australia, that would require all Attorneys-General to take part in a discussion to draw up the ratings. Now you would be able to say this R18 classification should exclude the type of games altogether. It should still exclude a whole range of games that are, as you see it, and I have to say I agree with you with these games, obnoxious, repellent, morally repugnant.

Michael Atkinson: I have no trust in the Classificaton Board to apply the guidelines sincerely or correctly, and therefore to draw up such guidelines would be to draw them up in the sure and certain knowledge that they would be stretched, and then broken. But however I am happy to have a discussion of it, and indeed I cleared for publication a Commonwealth discussion paper on this issue back in April, and I've got no idea why it hasn't been issued yet.

Peter Mares: Well we were wondering about that discussion paper, too, and that was one of the questions I was going to ask you. We haven't been able to get a clear answer from the Attorney-General's Department, the Federal Attorney-General's Department, as to why it hasn't been released. What is your understanding? That discussion paper, as you say was meant to be released earlier this year.

Michael Atkinson: The Standing Committee of Attorneys-General was going to issue a discussion paper a couple of years ago, and I objected to it because it struck me as plain advocacy for the R18 classification, R18+ and it didn't contain any examples of these extremely violent and depraved games, so I insisted that such examples be included. They are included in the Commonwealth discussion paper, and I cleared it for publication in April, so I'm getting weary of the games industry claiming that I'm suppressing discussion. I'm doing no such thing.

Peter Mares: Well you'd like to see that discussion paper come out.

Michael Atkinson: I'm happy to have the discussion. Indeed I think when most Australians see examples of the kind of depravity, cruelty, and extreme violence of these games you know, shooting off an opponent's limbs, dismembering them, blood spray over the screen, torn flesh and protruding bone from dismembered limbs, heads exploding in a spray of blood. I think that they too will say that this will have the effect of desensitising people who play these games, some of them, not most of them, but just some of them, to desensitising them to violence.

Peter Mares: There is an argument that this is all academic, that banning these things doesn't work anyway, because they're going to come in from overseas.

Michael Atkinson: Oh, sure the law of theft hasn't worked these past few thousand years because people keep thieving.

Peter Mares:You say that's not a defence.

Michael Atkinson: No. I'm just going to do what I can as someone who was elected with 76% of the vote when I last faced election, and as someone who has the responsibility for the public good and the law to do what I can. Now if this can be circumvented, then so be it, but I've done my part.

Peter Mares: Attorney-General, thank you for your time.

Michael Atkinson: Thank you.

Peter Mares: South Australian Attorney-General, Michael Atkinson, discussing his reasons for opposing an R18 classification for interactive games in Australia.

To get a gamer's perspective, I'm joined in the studio by David Doe. He's an advocate of an R18 rating for games sold in Australia, and he works for a local game developer, Firemint.

David Doe's also behind Gamers 4Croydon, a political party that wants to challenge Michael Atkinson in his State seat of Croydon at South Australia's election in March next year. David Doe, welcome to The National Interest.

David Doe: Thank you for having me.

Peter Mares: I think, well what's your opinion of this game we mentioned in the introduction, Modern Warfare Two?

David Doe: Modern Warfare Two is by all accounts the biggest entertainment launch in history. The developers and the publishers should be very proud of the work that they've done in this game. I've seen the objectionable level, which a lot of people would know from the term 'Remember, no Russian', as the Russian terrorists speak to you, as you exit a lift and into an airport. That is -

Peter Mares: This is the massacre scene, which I've also seen footage of, where basically the player looking through a gunsight, goes into an airport and shoots a whole lot of people.

David Doe: That's right. The player has a choice whether or not they want to shoot at the civilians. They're not required to kill the civilians to pass that level, but that level in particular is very confronting content, and it's a reason in itself to have an R18 implemented because it's just not suitable for 15 year olds.

Peter Mares: So you agree that 15 year olds shouldn't be able to buy and play this game?

David Doe: Absolutely.

Peter Mares: Now how many games are entering Australia under an M.A. rating that you think should be actually 18 plus r-rated?

David Doe: Well if you look at the numbers from the BDFC, the SRB, Peggy and the New Zealand Office of Film and Literary Classification, in the last five years, we've had 25 games come into Australia and be rated MA15+, that have been rated R18 or the equivalent in those other areas.

Peter Mares: And some of those games though are modified for the Australian audience I think, because of our different rating system.

David Doe: That's right. Some of them have been modified. I think around five or six of those games were modified to have an Australian version of the game.

Peter Mares: And presumably the violence was toned down a bit, or the sex, or whatever it was.

David Doe: Some of them have had the violence turned down, or even just the physics for the rag-dolling effect that some of these games contain.

Peter Mares: What does that mean?

David Doe: That is when a body moves around, they have a whole very, very complex set of physics that instructs the body how to move in that environment, and sometimes that will be toned down in order to pass the MA15 -

Peter Mares: So to make it less graphic, as it were?

David Doe: That's right.

Peter Mares: OK. Another game I'm aware of is one called Fallout 3. Can you tell us a bit about that game?

David Doe: Fallout 3 is in post-apocalyptic Washington after the nuclear bombs, and it is your role as the character, is to survive the wasteland of Washington D.C. And it's a particularly graphic and violent videogame.

Peter Mares: And is that available in Australia?

David Doe: That's freely available under MA15 rating in Australia.

Peter Mares: And should it be?

David Doe: It should be rated R. There's no question about that. Again, the European games information lobby the DDFC, Yes I do, which is the American lobby, have all rated this game for adults only, and we've rated it MA15+.

Peter Mares: Well that would suggest that the Attorney-General from South Australia is right, and that the Classification Review Board isn't doing its job.

David Doe: I think the Classification Board is doing the best it can. This is - there's obviously a huge commercial interest in the videogame industry, and even though Australia is a small market, they're going to try and provide Australians with the type of content that they would like to engage with. So whether or not they're trying to make sure that more games get through, at an MA15+ (rating) or not, I'm not sure, I don't work there, but I think if we gave them the option of having an R18 rating, they would classify more games as R18 because they have that ability and in that way people would be more informed as to the type of content that's readily available in those types of games.

Peter Mares: The Attorney-General though would argue they would also then allow more games into Australia that currently aren't allowed in at all.

David Doe: Well he's probably going to make that argument no matter what. I would refute those claims, given that the classifications guidelines code explicitly deals with the type of things that Mr Atkinson was talking about, and that sexual violence and proscribed drug use, for example, are automatically refused classification.

Peter Mares: But there are things now, games now that are refused classification in Australia, that is, they're not allowed in because they can't be classified MA, they can't be classified Mature Adult for 15 year olds, and there's no R rating, so they don't get in. Now some of those games would get in presumably, in future, and presumably that's what gamers like you want, you want to have access to these games as well.

David Doe: We want to give people the choice to choose, to give them the opportunity to choose for themselves what the type of content they engage with. So if you're over 18 years old, you should be able to decide for yourself what you think is appropriate. If you're a parent, you should be able to know the type of content that is involved in these games. Whether or not I'm going to play them, or lots of people are going to play them, that's really up for the community to decide. No-one's going to sit down and force everybody to play these R18 rated games.

Peter Mares: And you support those existing restrictions that would apply if we had an R rating, things like sexual violence, drug use?

David Doe: Sexual violence, definitely. Drug use is obviously one of the more tricky topics, because some drug use will go through, and some other drug use won't. And that is a matter for the Classification Board.

Peter Mares: There is also an ability as I understand it, on consoles, the game consoles, to lock out certain categories of games, so that if we had an R rating, you could organise your console at home so R rating games won't work. Now is that an effective thing, or do kids just know how to get around of that sort of stuff?

David Doe: No, it's absolutely an effective thing. For the parents that know that their console has that functionality, it works. The only way a child would be able to get around it is if the parent told them the password. Every current generation console, x-box 360, the PS 3, the wii and even the PC to an extent, has the ability to restrict access to content based on the guidelines.

Peter Mares: So that's another level of control that could be operated if the R - because the Attorney-General's argument was that if these games come in and these R-rated games are hanging around the house, then kids are going to use them.

David Doe: Yes, that argument doesn't really hold too much water when you look at the R rated DVDs that are freely available as well. We want to give parents the opportunity to determine what they think is appropriate for their children, and by letting them know that they have these controls built in to all of the current generation consoles, there's another platform that we need to talk about.

Peter Mares: Now, we also had a discussion with the Attorney-General about how much support there is for this point of view. I quoted a survey, he pointed out that survey was funded by industry. Do most Australians actually even think about these issues?

David Doe: Most Australians I think have played a video game at some point. I would also argue that a lot of Australians just don't know that we don't have an R 18 rating for video games. When you point it out, they invariably say 'Well why don't we?' And then they support the inclusion of R18 rating, because it would reduce confusion at the counter when they're buying it.

Peter Mares: And you're going to run a candidate in the South Australian State election on this issue. You're going to stand, well not you personally, but you're looking for someone to stand against Michael Atkinson, as I understand it in the seat of Croydon. Now this could be a big embarrassing if he's proved correct and you get any votes, it's going to actually support his view that your course doesn't have any support and people want these games kept out altogether.

David Doe: I think there's going to be a lot of different ways to interpret the election results on March 20th. We're definitely going to run a candidate in Croydon, and partially because of the intractability of the Attorney-General. He has made it clear that he is immune to popular public support, scientific research and reasoned arguing. So he has left us with no other alternative but to run a candidate against him in the seat of Croydon. and as evidenced by his overly smug reference to 76% of the two-party preferred vote at the last election, and a letter that he sent out to thousands of gamers around Australia saying 'Well if you don't like it, run against me'. So here I am.

Peter Mares: David Doe, thank you very much for joining me.

David Doe is an advocate of an R18 rating for games, he's aiming to start a political party called Gamers4Croydon that will run in the South Australian election and challenge the Attorney-General, Michael Atkinson. And we will see whether the Classification Board wants to respond to the South Australian Attorney-General's comments on the way it classifies games on a future program.

In the meantime, give us your thoughts. 'Click the Have Your Say' button the website or call the feedback line 1300 936 222.