TONY JONES

Good evening. Good evening. Welcome to Q&A, live from the Robert Blackwood Hall at Monash University in Melbourne. I’m Tony Jones. Facing your questions tonight, Opposition Leader Bill Shorten. Please welcome our special guest.

Thank you very much. Now, Q&A is live in eastern Australia on ABC TV, iview and NewsRadio. And just to be clear, we also invited Prime Minister Scott Morrison to appear solo on an election leadership Q&A, but earlier today, his office informed us that he is not available. Well, the man who wants his job is here to face your questions. Let’s go straight to the first question. It’s from Thomas Fernando.

THOMAS FERNANDO

Mr Shorten, during the federal campaign trail and recent debates, one of the issues that you’ve been consistently questioned on is that of taxation. Many Australians, including myself, have been getting the sense that you’ve been avoiding giving Australians a clear and up-front and honest answer. We don’t know whether we can really trust Labor on the issue of taxation. But tonight’s your opportunity to prove us nay-sayers wrong. How is the Labor Party going to pay for all of their proposals? And under the Shorten government, would there be higher taxation for the average Australian?

TONY JONES

Bill Shorten, off you go.

BILL SHORTEN, OPPOSITION LEADER

Well, good evening, Thomas, and thank you for your question. For the last 5.5 years, Labor’s been working on its policies, and we’re able to pay for them. The basis of our policies is that we think that it’s time for real change in Australia. We think it’s time that a whole lot of people who the system isn’t looking after have a better voice. What we’re going to do to pay for our promises is that we are going to reform the taxation system, we’re going to take away subsidies which principally flow to the top end of town, and reallocate them in part to spending on schools and hospitals. We’re going to make sure that multinationals pay their fair share of taxation. What we’re able to do is pay for our promises by engaging in genuine reform, which creates a fairer Australia.

It isn’t right in this country, Thomas, that a property investor, who may be investing in their sixth or seventh property, can get a taxpayer-funded subsidy to make a loss on that property. That’s simply not fair. It isn’t right that large multinationals can have dodgy royalty arrangements. And by that, what I mean is that they have a big volume of business and revenue in Australia, and then what they do is, even though they make a big profit in Australia, they pay a royalty to a parent company elsewhere for the use of a logo or some trademark or some intellectual property, and miraculously this multinational’s big profit in Australia gets whittled down to a tiny amount, which is the only part that the Australian tax system taxes. So we seek to reform the system, to make sure that we’re actually tackling the big issues in this country – being able to afford pensioner dental, subsidies for households battling with the cost of child care.

TONY JONES

Can I just interrupt for one moment? ‘Cause we’re going to get to some of those issues. But Thomas actually wants to know how you’re going to pay for those promises specifically. So, you haven’t set out the funding details. When are we going to see that?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, we’ll outline the final costings later this week, actually, Thomas. But I can say to you tonight that we’re going to reform what’s called dividend imputation. So that’ll save about $6 billion we currently spend. We are going to reform the allocation of, uh, income splitting and trusts. That’ll save several billion dollars. We are going to reform the fact that you can currently claim money off your accountant for claiming tax deductions. We’re going to cap what you can claim at $3,000. That’ll save over $1 billion. We are going to reform the negative gearing rules, none of which will be retrospective – if you currently have a property investment, the rules won’t change, but in the future we won’t be subsidising investments in existing houses if you’re making a loss. So that will save billions of dollars. So, we have actually been up-front with the Australian people.

TONY JONES

Let’s just see if Thomas accepts that. Thomas, can you pop back up? You were after a specific answer. Do you feel now that you have the answer that you were seeking?

THOMAS FERNANDO

Yeah. Yep. I’m OK with that answer.

TONY JONES

OK, fair enough.

BILL SHORTEN

Thank you.

TONY JONES

Can I... I’ll just come to...

BILL SHORTEN

(CHUCKLES)

TONY JONES

I’ll come to part of one of his questions. Of course, the last thing he asked was, will there be new taxes? And clearly there will be new taxes, on...higher taxes for self-funded retirees...

BILL SHORTEN

Oh, no. No, no. Let’s...

TONY JONES

...on wealthy superannuants, higher taxes on property investment, higher capital gains tax.

BILL SHORTEN

Well, let’s go through each of those propositions and correct them. If we give someone a subsidy for owning shares, and then we stop giving them that subsidy, if you take the subsidy away from people, that’s not a new tax – we’re just not giving you something. Let me be more specific. It’s a bit complex. First of all, what I’m about to say does not apply to 96% of Australians. So, if you’re not sure about dividend imputation, that means you’re not getting it, generally, so don’t worry. But...

TONY JONES

Can I just suggest you don’t try and explain all these individuals, because there are...individual issues, because there are questions on them.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh. Sorry – you asked me two specific things.

TONY JONES

Well, give us a general point. Because the government says those are higher taxes.

BILL SHORTEN

Well, they would, wouldn’t they?

TONY JONES

You’re saying they’re not.

BILL SHORTEN

They would. But they’re not. A simple proposition – in Australia at the moment, we give some people an income tax refund, even though they haven’t paid income tax. This is a subsidy. It’s a gift. When John Howard introduced it in 2001, it was costing the budget half a billion dollars a year. Now it’s costing nearly $6 billion a year. But where the government is lying to people is, they say, if we stop giving you this gift, that somehow that’s a tax. We’re not taxing the income of retirees. We’re not taxing...changing the tax rules. What we’re doing is we’re just not giving you a gift. Now, there’s nothing illegal or immoral about this gift – it’s very nice. But at the end of the day, this nation has to make a choice about what it can spend money on. But when the government says that this is a retiree tax, what a pack of liars they are. Because it is not a new tax to take away a subsidy going to someone. Same with negative gearing. Why should first-homebuyers in this country...

TONY JONES

OK. I’m going to say we’re going to come to negative gearing, so let’s just hold that point.

BILL SHORTEN

Sure.

TONY JONES

Now, we’re asking the Opposition Leader to keep his answers short, so we can get through as many questions as possible. The next question comes from Kristine Giam.

KRISTINE GIAM

The World Bank states that Australia’s GDP growth per year is at 2%, which is well below Australia’s goal of having strong and sustainable growth of 3% to 4% per year. So, my question to you, Mr Shorten, is can Australia afford a Labor government, with their promises of free dental care for pensioners and reduced childcare costs for young families?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Kristine. First of all, there’s an assumption that if we don’t help pensioners with the cost of their dental care, that if we do nothing, that somehow that isn’t in itself a cost. There’s 145,000 older Australians on waiting lists for dental care. Not helping them afford dental care doesn’t make the problem go away. Not helping pay for people’s dental care doesn’t cure your teeth decay or your problem. So the proposition that us helping pensioners who have been getting the thin edge of the wedge under this government, with rising electricity prices, with everything going up... We believe that when you give Australians better dental or oral hygiene, they’re healthier, they’re happier. It actually costs less. Your teeth, especially as you’re older, are a big, you know... Illness...dental decay and illness is actually correlated to general illness. So this is the beauty of the Labor notion of the fair go. When you have a strongly funded healthcare system, that’s actually cheaper in the long run for everyone.

And as for child care, you know, if we do nothing else in our first term of government, if we get elected, what we are going to do is help a million Australian households with the cost of their child care. Now, the Liberals say, “Oh, we can’t afford that.” Whereas I say, “Why should working women in this country go to work, or two-income families, and one of the people’s income be eaten up by child care?” They go to work to pay for the child care so they can go to work. This is madness. So what we’re proposing to do is, we will have an economic growth dividend arising out of properly funding child care in this country. For example, when we help early childhood educators get properly paid, what we’re doing is recognising the economic contribution of that work.

So the beauty of Labor’s notion is, when you have cost-of-living measures, when you have working- and middle-class people getting a fair go, when you’ve got an even better healthcare system than the one we have now, that is an investment in the future. When the Liberals say we can’t afford that, what they say to people – pensioners with their dental challenges, or families struggling with childcare costs – is they say, “You don’t deserve it.” I have a different view. I would rather support a million working families with the cost of their child care... It’s worth about $2,000 per year, per child, under us. And the beauty of that investment is we can pay for it, because we’re going to wind back some of the unsustainable tax concessions at the top end. Then, everyone gets a fair go in this country.

TONY JONES

OK, you’ve...you’re over the minute. Well over the minute. Now... You did avoid the...the point of that question, which was about the state of the Australian economy. Now, if the Reserve Bank actually lowers interest rates tomorrow, what does that tell us about the state of the economy, and could your big spending promises push the country into recession? That’s the...the kind of core of that question.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh, the short answer to that scare campaign is no. But I don’t accept that I didn’t answer the young woman’s question.

TONY JONES

No, you answered part of it.

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah, thank you. And, um... What...? There’s a whole debate about how you grow the economy, and this is at the nub of the election. In 30 seconds – the government’s saying we’ve had six years of whatever, and they want three more years of whatever, more of the same. I actually think that this economy is more likely to grow sustainably when millions of Australian households are getting regular wage rises, getting support with cost of living, having a properly funded healthcare system. This is how this country works best – when millions of people share an opportunity, rather than just the top end of town, then you have millions of people contributing every day. This is the secret of growth sustainably in the future – invest in the people, and then people do the rest.

TONY JONES

And now, you have answered her question. So, the next question is from... Thank you very much. The next question is from Alex Kilroy.

ALEX KILROY

According to the Grattan Institute, I’m on track to be worse off, over my lifetime, than my parents. University was free for them. And they were able to buy a house for less than two times their combined income. Today, my sister’s HECS debt is larger than the cost of that house, and I can expect to pay 10 times my income for a comparable home. Australians over 55, like my parents, have seen their wealth increase by nearly $200,000, in real terms, this century, but people my age have gone backwards over that same period. So, how does Labor plan to improve the economic prospects of young people like me?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Alex. Um, first of all, we want you to be able to com...compete on a level playing field to buy your first home. A lot of young Australians wonder how they’ll ever be able to afford it. That’s why we’re levelling the playing field, and removing the tax subsidies, which give the property investors a head start over you. Secondly, when it comes to university, we’re going to open up 200,000 new places, which will help flow more money into universities and provide a lot of people with a chance to go to university. Thirdly, for everyone who wants an apprenticeship, we’re going to pay the up-front fees of 100,000 apprenticeships over the next three years, and reverse the cuts to public TAFE which have occurred under this government. We’re going to make sure that young people get penalty rates restored on Sundays and public holidays. We’re also going to make sure that when they have their education, in the school years, that we properly fund our public schools.

So, we’ve got a whole bundle of propositions – homeownership, the wages, making sure that we’re properly investing in education. I mean, young people get a bad rap in a lot of the tax system, a lot of the political debate. The reality is, not only do you not have...housing a lot more expensive than used to be, not only do you have to pay for university in a way which your previous generation didn’t, but even on, uh, things like Medicare, which you should pay, the point is you’re less of a challenge on the health system than the older people. So, I want to see some measures which put young people at the front.

And I’ll tell you one other way we’re going to help young people going forward – we’re going to take proper action on climate change, rather than leave that problem in the too-hard basket like the current government.

TONY JONES

OK. Once again, we’ll be coming to that. Do you see this election as sort of generational square-up, uh, where you’ll redistribute wealth from older, more established families and people to younger people, who you say are missing out? Is this a generational square-up, literally?

BILL SHORTEN

No, it’s not a generational square-up. But the fact is that, in Australia, if you have a lot of capital, you’re taxed far more lightly than if you make your money from income. Specifically, if you have a lot of property and assets, you’re doing quite well since the GFC. But if you don’t, then you’re falling behind. That’s not just young people. That’s the pensioners. That’s the wage earners. In this country, there is a bit of an intergenerational scam in our tax laws. We will give you subsidies to own a lot of shares. We will give you subsidies to invest in a lot of properties. But what we don’t do is provide enough other support for younger people. So, there is reform needed in this country. Real change is needed. And there is a very stark contrast. We’re offering real change. The current government are offering you three more years of the same last six years.

TONY JONES

OK. The next question comes via Skype. It’s from Callum Chow in East Lindfield, Sydney. You there, Callum?

CALLUM CHOW

With housing prices...with housing prices in Sydney and Melbourne falling by 14.5% and 10.9% since their 2017 peak, and housing being the main investment for most families, wouldn’t your negative gearing policy push prices down even further, damaging the financial position of families by decreasing demand for properties older than 12 months, and also have significant impacts on the wider economy in relation to the level of consumption and growth?

BILL SHORTEN

Uh, no, they won’t. The fact of the matter is – and thanks for your question, Callum – they won’t. Under this government, property prices have fallen. They don’t seem to take any responsibility for that. But in the future, with our changes... All the experts, all the independent experts, as opposed to the property interests, have made it clear that our changes will have a very minimal impact on prices. What we will do is stop giving a leg-up to people who already have property and investment, and level the playing field for first-homebuyers.

TONY JONES

Let’s go to another question on this subject from someone who has invested, um, in property. It’s George Korfiatis.

GEORGE KORFIATIS

My question is, uh, you talk about people having 10 investment properties to justify taxing them further. I have an investment property, and your policy doesn’t discriminate between owning one or 10. Take away negative gearing, and on my modest income, along with falling prices, then it becomes a bad investment. If you’re elected, I’ll be selling and probably enjoying the surplus funds over the next 10 years. I doubt I’m alone. Have you considered the cost that you’ll pass on, as I’ll now be eligible for full age pension in the future? Thank you.

BILL SHORTEN

OK. Thanks, George. First of all, our changes won’t apply to anyone who’s currently negatively geared. In other words, you can still keep claiming a loss and claiming, uh, credits for the loss you make on your property investment, if that’s what you currently do. So, there’s no change. What we’re saying is, on 1 January in 2020, new purchases of existing housing won’t be able to claim a government subsidy. You use the word ‘tax’. If I’m not giving you a subsidy for you making a loss on an investment property, that ain’t a new tax. That just means you’re not getting a subsidy. But in the meantime, no-one who is currently negatively geared... They can still claim that subsidy. So, this is a long-term change with a...with a very slow start. So, you’re not getting...

TONY JONES

Let’s quickly...

BILL SHORTEN

None of the rules are changing on you.

TONY JONES

Well, let’s go back to George, who has now heard your explanation of your policy.

BILL SHORTEN

OK.

TONY JONES

George, um, want to stand up for us? Are you still, under these circumstances, considering selling your investment property, if you still can benefit from it?

GEORGE KORFIATIS

Well, the risk is that falling prices will escalate further, and there’s better investments elsewhere, or you can just use the surplus funds and fund your retirement through the age pension in future.

TONY JONES

So, your fear is Labor’s policy will cause the accel...an acceleration in the, uh...in the lowering of house prices?

GEORGE KORFIATIS

Absolutely. Because you’ve got all of the other, I guess, taxes and charges that are coming from all layers of government, not just federal government, which are...which are kind of compounding the whole problem.

TONY JONES

OK. Quick answer?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, first of all, if you want to keep your investment property, and keep claiming the same subsidy from the government, you can. If you choose to sell it in the future, you’ll be able to sell it in the future. You, yourself, just said you might put it into some other investment. That’s fine. The only point of difference is not about any of your current finances, but is it right that we spend billions of dollars to give people the ability to claim a subsidy when they invest in a property in the future, or should we properly fund our hospitals and schools? It’s not a zero-sum game. The waiting lists for aged care are 130,000. We’ve got kids at schools not getting the resources they should. We’ve got waiting lists for elective surgery in this country. So, none of your current investment is affected.

And by the way, if you think that the negative gearing...in the future, that you won’t have the chance to buy new properties, and get more government subsidy for it... Under this government, prices have gone down. Treasury, independent experts have said that ours will have a very minimal, if any, impact on house prices. And I also want, one day, for some of the kids of some of the property investors to be able to get into the housing market too. What about the young ones?

TONY JONES

If the slide became worse...

BILL SHORTEN

Oh...

TONY JONES

...and it could become worse according to some experts, would you delay the implementation of your negative gearing changes?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, first of all, um, once you get into the hypotheticals, it’s a bit unfair. Secondly, we’ve got a problem right now in Australia. The economy has flatlined under the current government. Wages are the low...the grow...have been growing at the lowest level in 60 years. Government’s about choices. We... The last six years have not been an unmitigated success for Australia. Now, corporate profits in the last three years are up 39%, but wages have only moved 5% or 6%.

TONY JONES

OK.

BILL SHORTEN

We have four million people working irregular or casual work. Pensioners are doing it really hard. We’ve seen on Four Corners tonight before coming here that you’re seeing people in aged care facilities where they’re rationing the sanitary pads.

TONY JONES

OK, you’re...

BILL SHORTEN

This country has got to do better in looking after people.

TONY JONES

You’re anticipating questions that are coming up. The next question is a video. It’s from Liliana Giandinoto in Mill Park, Victoria.

LILIANA GIANDINOTO

I am 61 years of age, and following the closure of our small business, I find myself for the first time in my life in need of government assistance. I have been granted the Newstart allowance, which, including energy supplement and rent assistance, comes to a total of $574.20 a fortnight. Whilst I understand that Newstart is supposed to be a short-term assistance, but for someone of my age it is likely to be a much longer process to get a job. I have already applied for over 200. I’ve had to borrow from family just to keep a roof over my head. Mr Shorten, what is your party going to do to help those in my predicament?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Lilian, for your question. Lilian describes a whole lot of forgotten people in Australia. Did you know that, in Australia, if you’re over 55, your average period of unemployment is twice as long? There is age discrimination in Australian workplaces. Now, that’s not going to worry some of the school students up the front, not for many years, but there are many of our fellow Australians who have been dislocated by change, and they...no-one will give them a job. So we announced yesterday a new measure, that all small businesses who have a turnover of less than $10 million, we’ll give them a 30% deduction on their tax when they hire someone over 55 who’s been unemployed for longer than three months.

You know, on a Saturday or a Sunday, I do the shopping in the house – it’s my one way to sort of make up for the fact that I’m doing, you know...not around a lot of the other time. But, um, uh... The number of times that I’ve seen really well-dressed people, immaculately presented – a bit like Lilian, who we saw on the video – they’ve got their CV in a plastic sleeve and they say...you can see the sting of rejection in their eyes. They say, “Why doesn’t anyone want to give us a go?” So what we’ve done is put a specific measure on the table which will reward companies for investing in older people. Lilian also made a point about how low the Newstart is. We’re going to review it when we come in, ‘cause it is too low.

TONY JONES

So, what’s your aim when you review it? It’s obviously... You know, we’re looking at big spending initiatives from you at the moment.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh...

TONY JONES

You’re going to add an expansion of Newstart on top of that.

BILL SHORTEN

Tony, you’re...

TONY JONES

How much will it cost?

BILL SHORTEN

Tony, you’re using the sort of language of the conservatives there – “big spending”. Lilian is getting about $265 a week. You know, let’s not dehumanise her.

TONY JONES

But why wait for...

BILL SHORTEN

No, hang on.

TONY JONES

Why do you need review...

BILL SHORTEN

No. No, no, no.

TONY JONES

Do you know anyone that could live...

BILL SHORTEN

Wait a sec, Tony.

TONY JONES

First of all, just answer this – do you know anyone who could live off Newstart?

BILL SHORTEN

Mate, Tony, you get to ask me one question at a time. I’ll answer it as quickly as possible. You said “big spending”. Demon, demon, demonise. That woman is living on $265 a week. Now, we say it’s a temporary benefit. That is true, till you get a job. But when you’re an older Australian, your waiting period is twice as long. I don’t know the number we will come up with at the end of the review...

TONY JONES

But you will be...

BILL SHORTEN

...but I’m not reviewing it to keep it the way it is.

TONY JONES

...you will be increasing it – is that what you’re saying?

BILL SHORTEN

I think common sense says that a review is going to conclude that that amount is too low. I won’t pre-empt it, but I’m not having a review to cut it. And, again, this language of “big spending”. It’s not as if this government is not spending money. It’s who they’re spending it on. I just went to check, when we were talking about the negative gearing – we’re spending $35 billion in the next 10 years to help subsidise property investors who haven’t even bought their property yet, yet we can’t find enough to help Lilian who has, you know, been working, and at 61, on the rough end of change. It’s about priorities. But when you say “big spending”, let’s tell the truth here – this government is spending money. They spend it in tax cuts – $77 billion for the top tier of tax earners. They spent three years trying to give away $80 billion to the big end of town in corporate tax cuts. This government will spend money, but when it comes to a woman on $265 a week, “Oh, we’d better check that. We’d better send her a robo-debt letter from Centrelink. We’d better just police her to within an inch of her life.”

TONY JONES

I’m sure she would like to know... Leave that to one side. Next question is from John Dummett. We’ve got to get through a lot of questions tonight. Go ahead, John.

BILL SHORTEN

At least I’ve turned up. I’m happy to have ScoMo here. I’m trying my best.

JOHN DUMMETT

Mr Shorten, you have been Opposition Leader through three prime ministerships – Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison – but you have consistently lagged behind these men in preferred Prime Minister polls. Can you give a frank and candid answer as to why you have proved to be so unpopular with the Australian public?

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah, well... Good evening to you too, John. Thanks. Um... 2,032 days, but who’s counting? Um... Let’s face it, this country needs change. And, you know, they said, when I was the Opposition Leader against Abbott, that he was unbeatable. I remember the headlines. Tony Abbott, going to be there for three terms. Well, I outlasted him. Then, uh, Malcolm Turnbull, the Sun King. In some journalists, it was the end of the two-party state. It was like Louis XIV reincarnated, courtesy of Point Piper. Anyway, he’s probably watching this from New York, isn’t he? Hey, Malcom.

TONY JONES

OK. I...

BILL SHORTEN

Now we’ve got... I’m coming to it.

TONY JONES

I want to throw in a question...

BILL SHORTEN

We’re allowed to have a little bit of fun here.

TONY JONES

Scott Morrison’s running...

BILL SHORTEN

Just whenever I start to have fun with an answer. Anyway. You go. Come on, Tone.

TONY JONES

Scott Morrison is running a kind of presidential campaign, almost a solo campaign. Are you surprised how well he’s doing?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, we’ll wait and see, won’t we? Um... Then we’ve got to Scott Morrison. He’s the latest Liberal. But this is the point. I think Australians are over instability. And the point of the last 2,032 days is this – my team’s united. I can put my whole team… I mean, maybe not all of you watched the launch, although it’s good footage, yesterday. I can put all my team up the front. We’re all working together. In fact, I could even get the last three Labor prime ministers to attend the launch. I don’t think that’ll be happening under this guy. Australians are over the disunity. And whatever you think about the individual numbers, the best test to be prime minister in this country is to be an opposition leader. And I wouldn’t swap any of the last 2,032 days and the unkind headlines and all the rest that the government has thrown at me... They’ve thrown their best shots at me over 2,000 days.

But that’s actually what the system is about. Because you need to know who’s running, you need to know what they’re like, you need to see them tested. And for 2,000 days my whole team has been tested. So I couldn’t be prouder of my team. I couldn’t be prouder of the fact that I lead a team, that I can get my team out with me. And what we’ve also done is put forward policies. I know not everything I’ve said tonight so far has met with everyone agreeing with it. But one thing I can promise you – and it’s the one thing I hear right across Australia, from the left to the right, the north to the south, the east to the west – is people are sick of the instability. And for six years, Labor has proven we’ve learnt that lesson. We are the stable, united choice. So, on May 18, vote for change. Vote for Labor to end the chaos.

TONY JONES

OK, alright. Let’s try and stay away from sloganeering if we can. But the next question will test you again. It’s a video from Les Fordham in Sturt, South Australia.

LES FORDHAM

Yes, like many self-funded retirees, my wife and I are not on a high income, but if we lose our franking credits we lose 20% of our annual income. Labor members have advised that we should seek financial advice on restructuring our affairs, but nothing will give us the same income as we get now. Bill Shorten has said that he wants to increase the basic wage for low-income earners, yet he seems happy for a retired couple to live on less income than the basic wage. How does this equate to Labor’s slogan for making Australia a fairer country? Thank you.

BILL SHORTEN

Well, Les, first of all, there’s something which we need to understand about our retirement system, is, we have a pension. 2.6 million people are on it, full or part-time. But you only get the pension if you have assets below a certain amount, income below a certain amount. Above that, people mightn’t realise, but in superannuation, up to $1.6 million in accounts, all the income you get from your shares, and your assets, all the income is tax free. But what happened in 2001 is John Howard said, well, if you own shares, and you get a dividend from the shares, and interest from them, that he’ll give you 30% on top of that. It’s a government payment. You’re not self-funded when you’re getting a government payment because you own shares. It’s just not means tested.

So, this gift... When you get an income tax cheque in the mail and haven’t paid income tax, it’s a gift. And the thing is, this gift is paid for by millions of people who go to work. Did you know that half a million Australians pay on average 11,000 tax a year...$11,000 tax a year. Every dollar that these half a million people pay in taxes goes to the gift, to people who happen to be lucky enough to own shares in retirement, get a dividend and then we top it up. I know it’s a complicated explanation. It affects 4% of people. What we’ll also do for Les...

TONY JONES

Can I just get in...

BILL SHORTEN

...is, when he’s sick, we’ll make sure Medicare is better funded...

TONY JONES

Can I just say... He’s on a video, so he can’t do follow-up questions, but can I do for him a follow-up question? Do you accept this policy is going to hit a percentage of low-income retirees on self-managed super funds, as well as the rich ones that you’re targeting?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, I actually...

TONY JONES

‘Cause he’s basically saying...

BILL SHORTEN

I understood your question.

TONY JONES

OK. Good. Keep going then.

BILL SHORTEN

Um... Low-income people are on the pension. Now, that doesn’t mean that it’s illegal or immoral to get a free payment from the government because you own shares. I’m not judging it. I get it. I wouldn’t want to lose that either. I understand that point. But it’s now costing $6 billion. When will we be honest enough to admit that just giving $6 billion to some people because they don’t pay income tax, that we write a cheque and put it in the mail... Do you know, some of the people receive $250,000 in tax refund for tax they haven’t paid? What I will also do...

TONY JONES

The point about this fellow is he’s at the other end of the spectrum.

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah, and I’m not...

TONY JONES

Do you... I just simply said, do you accept that some low-income retirees are going to be hit pretty hard by this?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, what you’re saying is that when you’re a retiree you never have to use any of your shares. The whole principle of superannuation was to give you enough to be comfortable in retirement. It was never meant to be that the government would top you up, you could keep all your shares and you’d never have to spend a cent in retirement. It is a difficult issue. I don’t blame Les for not wanting to lose some money. I don’t blame him at all. But you’ve got to ask yourself a question – how do we pay for aged care in this country? How do we pay for dental care in this country? How do we pay for medical care in this country? This is... It’s a change. We’ve still got a safety net. But what I understand is, this is...not everyone likes this. But there is a sensible reason to do it. Because, if it’s costing the budget $6 billion now... Let me rephrase the question. How much will it have to cost the budget before we say we can’t afford it? It’s gone up 12 times in the last 18 years. When will it be too much?

TONY JONES

OK. You’ve got the answer. We’re going to move on to other questions on other subjects. The next question is from Liv Moroney. Hi, Liv.

LIV MORONEY

Hello. Mr Shorten, my mum works in aged care, and every night I hear another story about the real-life consequences many geriatric patients face due to the lack of funding. Successive inquiries into aged care have revealed numerous cases of abuse, neglect, and poor care of patients. According to the Australian Medical Association, more than one in five... Sorry. According to the Australian Medical Association, by 2056, more than one in five Australians will be over the age of 65, leading to higher care costs. You’ve stated we’ve got to make sure that aged care staff are valued, paid properly and properly trained. So how does the Labor Party aim to support and fund the recommendations found by the royal commission?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Liv. First of all...can you thank your mum for what she does, too? We don’t fully appreciate our aged care workforce. You probably didn’t watch it last year, but when I was last on Q&A, I think it was in Elizabeth in South Australia, and people there raised the challenges of aged care. And not just the challenges. ‘Challenge’ is sort of emotionally neutral word, isn’t it? You know, the questioner raised abuses, problems, neglect. And they asked, would I be open to a royal commission? I said, “I think you’re on to something.” The government then attacked me in parliament, accused me of elder abuse for raising a royal commission. Well, eventually, like they do sometimes, they got around to doing what we thought they should do.

So the royal commission’s under way, and it started hearing some evidence even today, and I mentioned it a little earlier in our discussion. I think there’s several things we need to do to reform aged care, and we don’t need to wait for a full royal commission to tell us some of it, because there has been lots of reviews. One is we’ve got to provide better training. Two is we’ve got to find more money. Three, we’ve got to find more staff. The nurses’ union and other unions in this industry have said that...you know, they’ve raised the issue of staff ratios. I think we’ve got to have that conversation. You can’t ask two aged care workers doing a full shift, looking after 20 or 30 people, just to... It’s not like making widgets on a factory line – people are people. Someone falls out of their bed, you can’t say to them, “Well, it’s taken six minutes to lift you up, so I’m going to leave you there, because under the, you know, inadequate funding of the system I can only afford to give you six minutes.” It’s one of the reasons why we’re doing the reforms we’re doing.

I mean, how do we find the resources to look after our most vulnerable? And it’s about making choices. So I do think we need to look at ratios. I think we need to look at making sure we’ve got community pharmacies, supported to do work in aged care. I think we need to make sure GPs are properly remunerated for their work when they attend. I think we need to have more audits and inspections of the facilities. I also think we need to have more TAFE training. And we’ve said that some of the new TAFE places we’ll create will go into aged care, and also the NDIS. So, I don’t have all the answers here tonight....

TONY JONES

Here’s a quick question, then. Why do you make a special case for increasing the salaries, subsidising the salaries, of childcare workers, but not aged care workers when, possibly, they face an even bigger crisis?

BILL SHORTEN

Well... I don’t think it’s quite fair to play that Hunger Games approach. In terms of early childhood educators, which is a separate issue, they have been neglected too. So, I’m happy to take you through these numbers. I think that we’re in a position to be able to do a whole package on child care now. I get that the royal commission may make findings. I get that we need to talk to all the stakeholders in aged care to roll out changes. The fact that we look after early childhood educators now does not mean that we won’t work to help aged care workforce in the future. But, as it happens, we know that for early childhood educators... And when you’ve got lots of people not being paid properly, let’s not have a competition who’s the most miserable. But for early childhood educators, did you know that they are the 92nd lowest paid profession in Australia, out of 96? These early childhood educators are the people we first entrust our two- and three- and four-year-olds outside of the family unit. Because it’s a feminised industry – in other words, preponderantly, the vast bulk of the workforce is women – they have been underpaid forever, and that’s why we are going to look after early childhood educators. But my answer shows we’re thinking about what to do in aged care too.

TONY JONES

OK. Remember, if you hear... Thank you very much. Thank you. Remember, if you hear any doubtful claims from Mr Shorten tonight, let us know Twitter.

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Tony.

TONY JONES

And keep an eye on the RMIT ABC Fact Check and The Conversation website for the results. The next question comes from Luke Evans.

LUKE EVANS

Thank you, Tony. We all know that our relationship with the United States is an incredibly important one. In 2016, you said Mr Trump was incredibly unsuitable to be leader of the free world.

BILL SHORTEN

No, I didn’t say that, but...

LUKE EVANS

Is that...

BILL SHORTEN

I did say he had views that I just couldn’t understand.

LUKE EVANS

Um, it was a quote of yours.

BILL SHORTEN

The Americans picked him, so it’s up to them who they pick.

LUKE EVANS

Very true.

TONY JONES

Let him finish his question, if you don’t mind.

BILL SHORTEN

I want to be quoted...

TONY JONES

Is that still your view towards Mr Trump, and how do you suppose you would further the relationship with Mr Trump, uh, and also quoting as saying that he was “barking mad”?

BILL SHORTEN

I said some of his views were. Um... How will I deal with Donald Trump? Not the first person to ask me that. And it’s a very good question. Uh, professionally and politely. I’ll always put Australia’s interests first. The American alliance is important for our security, and we have a lot of shared values. Whatever the American democratic system...elects, we’ll work with them, and that’s how...that’s how I’ve always been.

When I was a union rep, I could always work professionally with the employers. In the parliament, I try and work as professionally as I can with the Liberals, even when they change leaders. And with Mr Trump and with Xi Jinping and with Theresa May and with Mr Macron and with Mr Trudeau and all the other leaders – Mr O’Neill in New Zealand, with my friend Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand, I’ll be professional, but what I’ll also do is I’ll never compromise our national interests.

My foreign policy will be independently minded and it will speak with an Australian accent. It will prioritise working in the Pacific with New Zealand, with Indonesia, with our near neighbours. I understand the importance of North Asia, economically, and the rise of India. I understand the value of multilateral institutions. I understand and respect the shared history of ANZUS alliance. And foreign policy for Australia, under my government, will not be a second-order issue. And what’s even better? I’m going to give the world Senator Penny Wong, so I’m sending the best we’ve got.

TONY JONES

OK. Sorry. Thank you very much. The next question is from Dante Harrower. Dante.

DANTE HARROWER

Hi, Mr Shorten. So piggy-backing off that foreign policy, which international relationship do you value more – the US or China?

BILL SHORTEN

I, um... It’s not one or the other. The world is a complex and uncertain place. In terms of security, America has always been a reliable ally to Australia. A little-known fact – in 1942 when Darwin was bombed, 188 Japanese bombers overhead, 10 planes went up. I think nine were shot down. All 10 were piloted by Americans. I’m a student of history. When John Curtin, the great Labor leader, in 1941 said we wanted to bring Australian troops home, that was a big break with the UK. But he looked to America... So I get the history, but I don’t let history just dictate all of our future views. I’m loyal to the relationship, but that does not therefore mean that every perspective from Washington should be Canberra’s perspective.

I do not look at our relationship with China through one prism of strategic risk. Of course we want to maintain our national security, our cybersecurity, our national interests. But I tell you what – whatever this government has accomplished in the last six years, in terms of economic growth, has been written on the back of exports to north Asia and China. I think it is a great that thing we have so many Chinese Australians. So many people of Chinese ethnicity have joined their story to the Australian story.

What you won’t get from me is the crude oversimplification that somehow there’s...it’s a bipolar world and you’re for one and not the other. I have excellent relationships with China and I have excellent relationships on my many visits to the US. But, again, to finish what I said in the last answer, for me, foreign policy will be with an Australian accent. And what I mean by that is the first countries I will visit if I’m elected, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, East Timor, Indonesia. The best foreign policy security I can give future generations of Australia is create the best neighbours.

We will be a...we will be a conscientious international citizen if Labor is in government. We won’t dismiss the Paris targets on climate change, of 45%. We won’t turn our back on taking action to help clean up the Pacific of the plastic waste. We won’t cut $11 billion out of foreign aid, like the current government. We will be conscientious, we’ll want to extend our trade relationships, we’ll want to deepen our cultural ties. But you ask, China or America? In Australia, we’re smart enough to work with all of them to Australia’s long-term interest if we behave in a smart and respectful fashion.

TONY JONES

OK, briefly, Paul Keating, obviously, has a clear preference for China. Did he discuss with you his fears about the intelligence chiefs twisting the policy decisions on China?

BILL SHORTEN

One of the things which you... I think Paul Keating is a great man. Uh... And so do you. So, yeah. But...

TONY JONES

Did he share with you those comments before he made them publicly?

BILL SHORTEN

I’m coming to it. He did a 20-minute interview, which 18 minutes of it was so...uncontroversial it didn’t run in the media. He made a comment about our spy chiefs – I don’t share that particular view with him, no, I don’t. I think our security agencies are very professional, so I don’t share that view with him. But what...

TONY JONES

But I asked you, had he made that...

BILL SHORTEN

No...

TONY JONES

...claim to you before, privately?

BILL SHORTEN

He didn’t tell me he was going to do that particular press conference. But do you know what? He’s an elder statesman of Australian politics. He’s a grown-up. And in my party you’re allowed to have an opinion.

TONY JONES

OK, Scott Morrison, by the way, today has demanded that you disown Paul Keating...

BILL SHORTEN

Oh, God. Oh, well, no, Scotty.

TONY JONES

...and distance yourself from his remarks.

BILL SHORTEN

No. Not a hope in Hades that I’m going to disown Paul Keating. But on that particular view, I don’t agree with him. Isn’t... Don’t these current government ministers, don’t they dumb politics down to, you know, black and white? Paul Keating was a great treasurer of Australia and a great prime minister.

MAN

(LAUGHS LOUDLY)

BILL SHORTEN

Well, probably did a better job than the person who interjected, I’ll give him that. But the point about it is he’s allowed to have a view. It’s not the end of the world. I tell you, I set a test for Mr Morrison. Not that he’s here to, you know, hear it, but maybe someone will tell him...tell him this. Why don’t you get your last predecessors to turn up to your launch – Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott? Let’s see how you go doing that much bit of unity.

TONY JONES

Alright, you’re watching Opposition Leader Bill Shorten live on an election special Q&A. The next question comes from Athrina Atabak.

ATHRINA ATABAK

Hi, Mr Shorten.

BILL SHORTEN

Hello.

ATHRINA ATABAK

My question is, as a student, I’m particularly concerned about climate change. Recent studies show irreversible climate change effects by 2030. How would a Shorten government expand domestic policy, as well as work internationally, to ensure that our future is not threatened by the prospect of the world becoming uninhabitable?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Athrina. Well, there’s few issues which are more black and white, or where there’s a stark difference between us and the government, than taking real action on climate change. We’ve committed to reducing our carbon emissions by 45% by 2030. We’ve committed to making sure...to achieve 50% renewable energy as part of our energy mix by 2030. So what we’ve said is, we’ve put in measures to get 0.01% of companies, but our top 250 carbon polluters, to reduce their emissions. The government isn’t doing that. We’ve said that we want to encourage a greater investment in renewable energy – the government’s not doing that. We’ve said that we also want to encourage the rollout of solar battery systems. I mean, 2 million Australian households now have solar rooftop. What we’d like to do is help expand the take-up of solar battery systems so they can store that energy. There’s a lot of differences. All the government ever does is say, “Oh, the cost of taking action on climate change is too much.” Whereas...

TONY JONES

In fact...in fact, they ask you what your policies are going to cost, and until now we don’t have an answer. Do you have an answer?

BILL SHORTEN

‘Cause it’s one of... OK. I know people want just to not be controversial, but I want to give you a controversial answer back to that, Tony. That is such a dumb question, to say “What does it cost?” without looking at the cost of inaction. You can’t have a debate about climate change without talking about the cost of inaction. Let me use an analogy for this. It’s not that you are, Tony, it’s the question. You know, the Libs just say, “Look at the cost of it.”

The reality is that a lot of companies are already decarbonising. They’re reducing their carbon pollution. They view that as an investment. I went up to a company called Sun Metals. They’re a zinc refiner outside of Townsville. The only way that we’re still refining zinc at Sun Metals in Townsville is because they invested in a solar farm, solar panels, which has meant that they’ve reduced the cost of power going to the refinery. Now, if you believe the Liberals, they’d have stopped at the cost of the solar panels, but they wouldn’t look at the fact that the cost of energy under the old system is too expensive and the jobs will be gone. I’d rather look at the whole equation. You can’t...

These people never admit – the government, the conservatives, the climate deniers, the people really running the Morrison government – they never admit that there is a cost to climate change. There IS a cost – the bushfires, the extreme weather events, the insurance premiums. Climate change is costing. And if anything shows you how broken the last six years – maybe 10 years – of Australian politics is, is that whenever someone wants to have a crack at doing something on climate change, the knuckle-draggers and the cave-dwellers drag them down. I mean, if this government was serious on climate change, Malcolm Bligh Turnbull would still be prime minister of Australia.

TONY JONES

OK. Just a quick follow-up – you’ve made some big promises, obviously, on climate change. Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said this was “the great moral challenge of our generation,” then he appeared to step away from that challenge. What did you learn from that?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, I’m not going to criticise Kevin. That was then.

TONY JONES

I’m just asking what you’ve learnt from that.

BILL SHORTEN

Well, what I’ve learnt is that we in Labor must commit to real change on climate. We can’t squib the fight. Leadership in this country isn’t always about telling people what they want to hear, but it is about telling the truth to the people about what you’re trying to do. Future generations will look back at this current election, and they will wonder why on earth people were arguing against action on climate change. I don’t want to be a prime minister who squibs the challenge. The Labor Party is going to stand up.

We know the government’s going to run a scare campaign. We know that they’re going to try and crowd out the issues and say it’s too hard, pull up the drawbridge, the world’s too complex, leave it to someone else to fix up. They’re going to somehow say that if we want to act on climate change, there’ll never be any fossil fuels. There still will be fossil fuels in this country. The point about it is we are... What I learned out of 2009? You can stand for something or fall for everything. And we’re going to stand and fight on climate change. We’re not retreating.

TONY JONES

Alright, the next question. You mentioned fossil fuels. The next question is about Adani. It’s from Karolina Franczak.

KAROLINA FRANCZAK

Mr Shorten, Australians don’t want equivocation from their leaders. If you truly believe that climate change is an urgent crisis that we need to address, can you, without equivocation, and with the full knowledge that it may affect the Labor vote in Far North Queensland, denounce the proposed Adani coalmine as a polluting relic that does not belong in a modern Australia, which is transitioning to renewables?

BILL SHORTEN

No. What I’m going to do is adhere to the science, adhere to the law, I’m going to make sure that we don’t have sovereign risk. There is no doubt in my mind that we’re moving to more renewables. There’s no doubt in my mind that, uh, coal-fired power is getting more expensive, and renewables are getting cheaper. But, at the end of the day, we have to have a framework of laws, we have to have a framework for investment. So, as much as some people would like me to just say, “Just stop it,” I’m not going to say that, because we’ve got to have a system so we don’t incur sovereign risk. So that isn’t the answer you want to hear, but if it’s any consolation to you more generally, I accept that we need to take a lot more action than this government is taking on climate change. I accept that we’re going to see change. But what I can’t say to you is that we’re going to stop using fossil fuels in our energy mix. And I’m certainly not going to say that we’re going to stop exporting, because that’s not a realistic promise. There’s no way I can deliver that. So I’m not going to say that.

TONY JONES

But let me ask you this – are you worried that if you say anything definitive about Adani, the CFMEU could hand...

BILL SHORTEN

No.

TONY JONES

...Scott Morrison the kind of photo op that they handed John Howard back in 2014, which effectively undid Mark Latham?

BILL SHORTEN

Uh, no, I’m not worried about that, no.

TONY JONES

Why not?

BILL SHORTEN

‘Cause I’m not. ‘Cause there’s other issues. I’ve got plenty to put to the people of Australia.

TONY JONES

That is a potential threat, though, isn’t it? I mean...

BILL SHORTEN

Well, this government says, somehow, um, that unless you support every mining project, you know, without checking it out, without doing the science, that you’re anti-miner. I’ve represented more miners than this government ever will. This is a government who does nothing about casualisation or labour hire. Like, I say to people in Central Queensland, I’m not going to incur sovereign risk. But this argument that somehow this top-end-of-town government, who’s deregulated the labour market, casualised the labour market, undermined wages and conditions... They’re not the friend of working-class people in this country, in any part. And, you know, no matter what dog whistle the government does, I’ve got an argument to put to workers around this country, full stop. And that’s going to be that we’ll get your wages moving again. So I think this government is virtue signalling on one issue, just to try and scare people from ignoring their economic interest on a range of matters.

TONY JONES

Alright, next question. We’ve got a lot of topics still to cover. Scott Venus.

SCOTT VENUS

Mr Shorten, um, will your Labor government actually, um...repeal the changes to the Medicare bulk billing system that has seen many Australians simply not see a doctor because they can’t afford the gap fees?

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah. Thanks, Scott. Um, the government has frozen the patient rebate for the last 5.5 years. Um, what that means, effectively, is when you go and see the doctor, you get a rebate, and that’s the Medicare system. They’ve frozen it at the same level. We will unfreeze it if we get elected. We’ve also said that for a range of treatments we’re going to extend the, uh, investment from pathology, through to cancer treatment and scanning, uh, through to dental care for pensioners. We’re going to create new Medicare items.

Medicare is a f... It is a core issue of Australian politics. Any of you who’ve been lucky enough to go overseas and come back know that one of our sources of national pride is our Medicare system, our national health scheme. But, over the last number of years of conservative government, they’ve been shifting more of the burden back onto the people to pay for the system. We have made a choice – we will invest more money into our Medicare system and make it even better by changing some of the tax treatment of other parts of our tax system. It is a choice. But can I tell you, when you’re sick, your ability to claim a tax subsidy isn’t as important to you as your ability to see a doctor. And that’s what motivates me.

TONY JONES

OK. Currently, the average out-of-pocket patient co-payment for a single GP visit is $37.39.

BILL SHORTEN

Mm-hm.

TONY JONES

If you unfreeze, uh, the co...the payments to doctors, how much is that going to come down?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, it will increase the rebate. Uh, what we’ve seen...

TONY JONES

That’s right.

BILL SHORTEN

It’ll be a matter of, you know, less than a dollar each time the indexation goes up. But if you look over five years, I’ll tell you what’s happened – the cost of your out-of-pockets to see a GP under the freeze has seen the cost of seeing a GP go up by about 20%. The cost of seeing a specialist in Australia, your out-of-pocket, the gap, has increased by about 39%. The, uh, amount of money cut from hospital funding... The federal government’s cut funding to hospitals, ‘cause they should…they promised to pay 50% of the effective costs of the states to run the hospitals, and they’ve retreated to 45%, which has seen literally millions of dollars cut from every hospital you can think of. We’re going to put that back.

TONY JONES

Yeah, so do you have a specific target for getting these fees down?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, we’ll index it on a regular basis. But what we will also do is, in particular areas, we’re going to put new money into the system on top of indexing it. And a classic example is our help for the challenge of cancer. One in two Australians in their life...will get a diagnosis of cancer. What a lot of people think, though, is that, um... So, if that’s not you, it will be someone in your family. And what a lot of people think is that when you get that diagnosis, the system’s free. And, indeed, the Prime Minister said that. But it’s not.

I met a fantastic couple today, uh, in Western Sydney, uh, Sandy and Kim. She’s got pancreatic...Sandy’s got pancreatic cancer. It’s level four. Pancreatic cancer is... You know, survival rates aren’t great. This is a really remarkable woman. She’s lived five years. Her out-of-pocket journey, though... Oh, not a journey – ‘journey’ makes it sound benign. Her out-of-pocket ordeal has been $100,000 over the last five years.

Now, some people might say, “Well, that’s just their bad luck.” That is not the way I view Australia. If I can do one thing as prime minister, but help make sure that when you get cancer it may make you sick, but it shouldn’t make you poor... If I can honour my commitment that anyone who gets diagnosed with cancer has a lot more access to bulk billing, they don’t have to feel they’ve got to fill in their superannuation form to spend all the money, so if they pass away, their family doesn’t...they don’t die in debt, this, to me, is why you want to be Prime Minister. It’s why any of us should want to see a government look after people in the fight of their lives.

You know, they are very clear choices. And so, in cancer… And the same with pensioner dental – what we want to do is give every pensioner in Australia... They don’t own yachts, they don’t have, you know, portfolios of shares. But I tell you, when you’ve got bad teeth, everything else is crook. 2.6 million Australian pensioners, because of the decisions we’re making, we will make sure they can get a new bulk bill item, up to 1,000 bucks every two years, just to help with the cost of seeing a dentist, private or public. This is what I think about Medicare. It’s not only worth defending and saving, it’s worth making better. What’s wrong with us not having the best dividend imputation franking credit system in the world?

TONY JONES

OK...

BILL SHORTEN

What’s wrong with having the best healthcare system in the world?

TONY JONES

Alright.

BILL SHORTEN

That’s ambitious.

TONY JONES

Thank you very much. The next question is from Francine Machin.

FRANCINE MACHIN

Right now, there’s a suicide emergency with Indigenous Australian youth. Both Labor and Liberal governments have promised to put money into suicide prevention. However, past records show that throwing money at something can be pointless. Tracy Westerman, the 2018 Western Australian of the Year, is a respected clinical psychologist, and a Njamal woman, who believes that money is often used for, and I quote, “Crisis-driven, reactive, and ill-informed responses.” How will your government ensure that families like those in the Kimberley can keep their children safe from harm?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Francine. It’s an epidemic. Again, not a topic which gets to the front of the newspapers, although, to be fair, the media have actually covered some of this epidemic better than, perhaps, previously. The issue of suicide is massive. But also the issue of our First Australians, and the inequality of the lives that many of them live is massive. There’s an intersection. On mental health and suicide, Labor’s committed to doing a whole range of suicide prevention projects – and, to be fair, so is the government. So we’re trying to do, not just more resource, but make sure it’s effective. So there are a range of projects in the city and the bush on that.

But I think the theme I would like to particularly address in your question is the issue of unfair outcomes for Indigenous Australians. We don’t have all night to go through everything that happens but, I tell you, I’ve got a unique idea to help make sure that Indigenous Australians get holistic solutions. I want to make Pat Dodson, who is from the Kimberley, who’s the Father of Reconciliation, I wanted to make the first...I want him to be the first Indigenous Australian who’s in charge of Indigenous matters in Australia.

TONY JONES

Can you...can you start by claiming that this is a national emergency? Because no-one has done that. No-one has put this on that level and committed all government resources necessary to do something about it.

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah, I think that’s fair language. I think it’s a national disaster, national emergency. I think, to be fair to a lot of people before me, people have tried to work at it. So I don’t claim any special status in saying what I just said. But I do have a view about the nation – if any Australian’s doing badly, that affects all of us. Sometimes in this country we judge ourselves by how many billionaires we have on the Forbes, you know, Rich List. I have a view that we should judge ourselves by if we have great disadvantage.

Now, some of the conservatives say, “Oh, that’s just all virtue signalling,” and they’re, you know, cynical about it. We should be really proud of the fact we share the continent with our First Australians, who’ve got 60,000 years plus of continuous connection to country. I think we need to redefine our relationship with our First Australians, not from either indifference or paternalism, to partnership.

Now, the way we do that… And I know you’re talking about suicide, which is the cutting edge, and for some of you, you might say, “Well, just work out the suicide and worry about everything else later,” but it’s all connected. If you don’t feel that you’ve got stable housing, if you don’t feel you’ve got access to a job, if you’re split up from your family, if you lose connection to country, it all works on each other. So, you know, we’ve got the suicide projects, but I’d also want to put to you that reconciliation in Australia and closing the gap is everything. It’s putting our First Australians and recognising them in the nation’s birth certificate – the Constitution.

They had a whole lot of Aboriginal leaders attended a big meeting at Uluru, and they came up with a declaration that they wanted to have a voice. They want to be consulted about laws made about them, rather than just inflicted upon them. I think this is a reasonable idea. I don’t think it means that we’re creating a new house of parliament just for Aboriginal Australians to be in charge of everything.

TONY JONES

So, very briefly, how would it work? Would it have a constitutional basis? And would it give advice to government that government had to follow on Indigenous affairs?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, Pat Dodson and Malarndirri McCarthy, our Labor Senator from the Northern Territory, and Warren Snowdon, who’s a longstanding member for Lingiari, and plenty of other people have been working on, how do you actually turn the idea of properly consulting our First Australians into a reality? Pat Dodson, Shireen Morris, who’s our Labor candidate in Deakin, they’ve all worked on this. I think that we can, uh, create regional assemblies, I think we can create a national body, and I think we can put it into the Constitution to consult. What it will not be is a third chamber of parliament.

TONY JONES

When you say you think you can, is this a commitment from a Labor government?

BILL SHORTEN

Oh, we’ve already made... It’s in our national... It’s in our policy, yes. It is our commitment. For some of you wondering why are we talking about the Constitution, and properly consulting First Australians, and a voice and a structure, some of you might say, “But that’s not the practical stuff. Housing, school, and jobs is what’s practical.” Well, that’s true. Practical stuff matters. But if you want to have a relationship of equality, you’ve got to empower people to be part of the decision-making over their lives. You know, some people say that, by giving Aboriginal Australians a voice, that they’re getting a head start on everyone else – they get something special that no-one else has. The reality is that our First Australians start behind everyone else. All we want them to do is have fair dinkum equal opportunity in this country.

TONY JONES

OK, let’s move on. Thank you. Thank you very much. The next question comes via Skype. It’s from David Thomas, from The Gap in Brisbane.

DAVID THOMAS

Hi. Mr Shorten, over 100,000 people are now working on gig economy platforms in the personalised transport sector. They are underpaid, they work between 60 and 80 hours a week for an average of under $10 an hour. They don’t receive any WorkCover or any superannuation, and don’t get any expenses for their vehicles. What will you and the Labor Party be doing to outlaw these sham employment practices, which are largely carried out by an overseas corporation using an offshore tax haven to collect and distribute incomes? Good-paying jobs and sustainable, tax-paying small businesses are being destroyed in what has become a free-for-all race to the bottom.

TONY JONES

Bill Shorten.

BILL SHORTEN

Thank you, David. Um... David may be talking about taxis, he could be talking about Uber... Um... In fact, I think he was talking about Uber. We’ve got some principles, if we form a government, to deal with the sharing economy, or the gig economy. Now, technology’s changing options and services in our economy far quicker than regulation can keep up. And there’s a great convenience to Uber. You know, you can... A parent can order it for their child and know where their child is and know their child is safe. You know, there’s convenience for a new technology, but it’s a challenge to existing business models. So we’ve got five or six principles that we will apply if we get into government. And it’s not easy. The whole world is trying to grapple with it.

First of all, if you own your own car, you have a right to use your car, so... You know, if you own your house and want to rent it out to someone, you have that right. So that’s the first principle. If it’s your property, you’ve got a fair right to have a say how you use it. It’s not for us to stop you. But what we also think is you’ve got to pay fair wages and conditions. You do have to pay taxes. Why should existing bricks-and-mortar business be subject to a set of regulation, and then new entrants just don’t have to do any of that? ‘Cause those taxes and charges pay for the roads, and they pay for system. So it’s not fair. So, taxes...

TONY JONES

So you’ll find a way to tax Uber? Is that what you’re saying?

BILL SHORTEN

These are our principles. You’ve got to pay proper wages, you’ve got to pay proper taxes. You’ve also got to make sure that you’re appropriately trained. Public safety is important. If you’re going to entrust someone to a service, that service has to meet a certain level of public safety.

TONY JONES

So, here’s the thing – can you legislate for a company like Uber to pay taxes, pay superannuation, to actually pay for the rights of their workers to have holidays, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? Are you intending to unionise the gig economy?

BILL SHORTEN

Oh, my Lord, you can scare everyone. Um...

TONY JONES

I wouldn’t have thought you would regard unionisation as scary.

BILL SHORTEN

No, I don’t, but I don’t know about the way you meant it. Um... OK, there’s five or six principles. It is really hard, you’re quite right. The whole world is grappling with it. I’ll rattle them off. You’ve got a right to use your own property, but you’ve got to pay proper wages and conditions, you should pay some sort of taxes. You should be... If you’re going to drive people, you’ve got to be publicly safe to do so. I also think that you’ve got to have principles of access. In the cab industry, we require the existing operators...you know, they’ve got to have disability access. The new gig interlopers, you know, they’ve got to demonstrate how they will provide proper access too.

So I think there are ways to have principles which you can regulate, but it’s not going to involve no change at all, because people have a right to use new technology, they have a right to try and, you know, get the best services they can. You can’t turn your back on the future and pretend it’s not happening. But regulation does need to catch up. The wages, the taxes, the public safety, the use of access. And everyone’s got to have the same broad set of rules. That’s called a level playing field.

TONY JONES

So, very briefly, the ACTU, Sally McManus, hot on this issue. Are you going to work with the ACTU to do something about the gig economy?

BILL SHORTEN

We’ll work with everyone. I mean, it is a new area, and there’s exciting services. But what I need also to say, it’s one of the things the government sort of criticises. They say, “Oh, Bill will work with unions.” I’ll work with business. They never criticise me for that. I’ll work with unions. I’ll work with the community. We’ll work with the existing operators in the industry. And we’ll work with the new technology operators.

What this country needs is, for far too long... Doesn’t matter if it’s taxation, the environment, Medicare, the gig economy – for too long we’ve grown to a tendency that we’ll just try and shove the hard issues down the road. Aged care. For too long, we’ve had a tendency in Australia that when it gets too hard, when we can identify a particular group of people who are missing or not getting exactly everything, for too long we’ve decided that if you don’t have...that the only change you can have is where everyone is happy completely, 100%, with everything you’re doing. We put it in the too-hard basket.

The sort of government I’ll lead will be an inclusive government, it’ll be a listening government. But what we’re not going to be as a government is a government who says that the world is too hard, tell everyone, “You don’t need to change, you don’t need to do anything.” What this nation needs is real change, stability, a sense of purpose and a sense that the future is not too hard. If we all work together, in my experience, we can normally solve most problems. That is my experience.

TONY JONES

OK, we’ve got time for... Thank you, again. Save your applause for after this last question.

BILL SHORTEN

(CHUCKLES) So hard.

TONY JONES

We’ve only got time for one last question. It comes from Kathryn Watt.

KATHRYN WATT

Repeatedly, our royal commissions find that there is a failure in leadership culture in human decency and human kindness, especially in caring for the vulnerable. Community organisations, aged care and disabled service providers are all in the spotlight. Has government effectively outsourced selectively your own responsibility to take care of people in our society? What will your leadership culture be? How will your government guide all of us as a community in relation to our culture, and being a decent and caring country to live in?

BILL SHORTEN

Thank you. That’s a fantastic question, Kathryn. Uh... My style of leadership is not that of, uh, “I know best, and everyone else must do as I say.” I’m not a lone ranger. I’m not going to be a Messiah. I don’t believe in the sort of authoritarian strongman that, “I will do this and everyone will just follow.” You know, that doesn’t work. We’re a country of 25 million people. We have lots of differences and lots of different experiences.

I would rather say my leadership style is one of the coach. I want to get the best out of the team. I understand that if you can get the smartest people in the room, even if they don’t all agree with each other, you’re more likely to get a better outcome than if you don’t talk to people. I understand that if you want to go and find out what’s happening, they don’t all come to you. So if I’m elected prime minister, we’re going to do the public meetings, we’re going to out and listen to people. So my style of leadership is to listen. My style of leadership is to get the best out of people. And this isn’t just an idle statement. Love us or hate us, the Labor Party for the last 5.5 years has been stable. Not for nothing did Bob Hawke say, “If you can’t run your own party, you can’t run the country.”

My other bit of...my other leadership style is that I don’t believe in majorities picking on minorities. This is not political correctness, but in my experience, good ideas come in all packages. They can come from the left, they can come from the right, they can come from people who worship Jesus or people who worship Allah or people who don’t worship anyone at all. Good advice and good ideas doesn’t come from what school you went to, not how many generations your family’s been in this country, not how rich you are. Good advice and good people are everywhere.

It’s as... I’m going to finish on this point. I went to this university. The reason I went to this university is ‘cause my mum worked here for 33 years. My mum came from a working-class family. She was the first in our family in the early ‘50s to ever go to university, ever. No-one ever thought... My grandma, English grandma, she was a cleaner and a barmaid. They wouldn’t have thought we’d ever be sitting here, talking to you like this. But if my mum... And she became a teacher, but she wanted to be a lawyer, but she was the eldest in the family, so needed to take the teacher scholarship to look after the rest of the kids. My mum was a brilliant woman. She wasn’t bitter. She worked here for 35 years. But I also know that if she had had other opportunities, she could have done anything.

I can’t make it right for my mum. And she wouldn’t want me to. But my point is this – what motivates me, if you really want to know who Bill Shorten is, I can’t make it right for my mum but I can make it right for everyone else. This is a country... I don’t care who you vote for – I’d like you to vote for us – I don’t care what god you worship, I don’t care how long you’ve been here, your accent, your family, what job they do, but I reckon that if this country can just let people be as talented and as capable by giving them all the same opportunity, we won’t all be the same at the end of the day, but then nothing gonna hold this country back. When we’re equal, when we get equal opportunity, we are going to be the best country in the world, with no arrogance. That’s my leadership style.

TONY JONES

That’s an obvious end point for the program. That’s all we have time for tonight. Please thank our special guest, the Opposition Leader, Bill Shorten.

BILL SHORTEN

Thank you.

TONY JONES

Thank you very much. Thanks to Monash University’s Robert Blackwood Hall, and this great audience. Give yourselves a quick round of applause, if you wouldn’t mind.

BILL SHORTEN

Thank you.

TONY JONES

Very good. You get a standing ovation from the guest. That’s pretty rare.

BILL SHORTEN

(LAUGHS)

TONY JONES

You can continue the discussion on Facebook and NewsRadio, where Tracey Holmes and politics professor Rod Tiffen will be taking your calls. Now, next week it’s the final Q&A before the election. As we said, Scott Morrison will not be appearing on Q&A. In his place, Liberal Party campaign spokesman and Trade Minister Simon Birmingham, Deputy Opposition Leader and Shadow Education Minister Tanya Plibersek and the leader of the Greens, Richard Di Natale. Until next Monday’s Q&A, goodnight.

BILL SHORTEN

Goodnight.