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d a v e t u r n e r

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Location: Owen's Valley, CA Joined: 09 Mar 2011Posts: 298Location: Owen's Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 18:41 UTC Post subject: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Hi Guys!



It is becoming painfully obvious to me out here in the Sierra that we now(and before) have an influx of new, untrained pilots heading out and flying from our peaks without the proper background to do so safely. As you will see below from my post on facebook, I'm trying to get our community to change. I am hoping to get some feedback from the flying community in order for our friends here to realize that there is a safer way to learning flight. Any input or comments from our PG Forum friends would help greatly, as there are many, many pilots on this forum more experienced than I. Thanks.









From my facebook-



Pilots please read: A dangerous pattern keeps emerging from our flying community out here in the Sierra. We are having more and more new pilots coming to the scene, and someone is going to get hurt/killed from (their own) negligence. It's a rough thing to point out, but I hope through awareness of the subject, we will be become better safer pilots and avoid these probable injuries. Here is what I'm talking about...



Too many new/under experienced pilots are flying in our area without the basic understanding of flight mechanics, kiting experience, or proper instruction. I can give insight into what this means, as I too taught myself to fly back in 2010(mistake), and now understand what this means.



We have too many new, young pilots borrowing hybrid speed wings and paragliders, and taking high flights with them without a basic understanding of flight. Yeah, it might seem easy to take the FireFly for a spin, but it will come back to bite you as soon as you fly in bad conditons, encounter a deflation, or make a bad landing. I have seen too many 'pilots' around here recently who have never either opened a P2 booklet or studied flight mechanics, already hucking themselves from peak tops. Too many people going out without a basic knowledge of weather and forecasting ability, and then they call me when they are on launch and can't figure out whats happening with the wind, or even how to check the wind. Or even pilots who fly only a few times per year, coming and making flights from the summits without having kited or practiced before hand.



I know from experience that this is going to lead to injury or death. I have already seen beginners get hurt out here from what I speak about. With my own eyes I have see multiple broken backs out here, and gruesome crashes every year. I hope to prevent more 'accidents' like these by asking for all pilots who fly out here to take it seriously, and become informed and safer pilots through education, training, and utilizing resources.



The Sierra is an extremely difficult location to fly safely, and anyone flying here needs to recognize this. You wouldnt throw your life savings into the stock market without proper research and a solid background in this industry I would think, so why are so many people willing to throw their life on the roulette table out here when it comes to flying? I pounded in twice in my first six months due to exactly what I speak about, so I don't think that I'm just blowing hot air. I speak from painful experience.



I think it would be great to see all of these new pilots out here take flying more seriously. As an USHPA instructor I am in fear of what I see going on out here, and do not want to be associated as a contributing factor to this new issue. I am asking for change. None of these pilots have reached out to me for info, advice, study material, instructional videos, or lessons (this is not a plug for lessons). What I would like to see is all new pilots take the P2 course before they start high flying again. I'd like to see everyone be able to forecast the weather before flying from peak tops again. If you havent flown in six months, then maybe go kiting or fly from the training hill a few times, rather then just jump in the truck and head on up to the top with the XC pilots. I'd like to see people stay injury free. Please.



All of the resources for change are already out there- instruction, books, videos, internet, mentors, training hills, kiting locations, and of course- USHPA! Everyone (including the intermediates) please take a look at how you fly, and how you could probably be safer about it.



Now I am going to ask the more experienced pilots who are reading this to please share your opinion on the subject. Feel free to comment (or share this post) about what I've just laid out. Is a proper, controlled, and informed systematic approach to learning flying a safer way then just going with the Bro's to launch? Is your life or spine worth an unsafe flight from the peak today, or would it be better to go tomorrow when ready? I see the #1 reason out here to cut corners as financial cost, as many out here are living simply. Not a reason in my book- if you can't afford to learn properly, then youre not ready to learn.



I am going to post this topic to the PGforum, my facebook account, and to group pages as well, so hopefully we will get some feedback. I'm not picking on anyone, quite the opposite. We need a higher level of competency out here before moving on to making solo flights from peaks.



It was very valuable to me to work for the winter/spring season for Eagle Paragliding down in Santa Barbara. I saw how a professional company progresses students through a comprehensive, complete training regime, and how this produces safer beginner pilots. Down in SB we make sure they have about 25 training hill flights before we ever let them fly from a peak. They must always have a radio on with an instructor, until they have graduated the P2 course. We taught the bookwork to the P2 course concurrently with the actual lessons. We made sure no one flew a wing too hot for them. None of this is being followed out here in the Sierra. We need to start looking at ourselves as safe, responsible pilots and what that means. We need to respect the process. Period.



Dave Turner

Mammoth Lakes, CA

sierraparagliding.com

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I h o r

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Location: Predator Ridge, BC, Canada DonorJoined: 04 Feb 2005Posts: 538Location: Predator Ridge, BC, Canada

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 21:00 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide That, James, is exactly what I was going to ask.

Dave, would you have gone the instructional path if someone approached you and said that was the logical way to go? No offense, but I've seen a lot of people over the years doing things they now advocate against. This was usually learned the hard way. The argument is logical only if you are open to it. If you are open to it you'll probably explore the instructional route.

Darwin rules.

d a v e t u r n e r

Topic Starter







Joined: 09 Mar 2011

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Location: Owen's Valley, CA Joined: 09 Mar 2011Posts: 298Location: Owen's Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 21:40 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide James,



Great question/point. I too was a rebel while learning, and was a spitting example of what I posted about. So, I can relate to the ones that I'm trying to help out now.





I would say that a few things would have helped me in my early days:



*Mentorship

A few of us were learning speed flying early on, when it had not become popular yet in the US (2010). There were no local pilots flying out here, and no one to ask questions to. If there would have been a more experienced local or visiting pilot who would have stepped in and told us how dangerous our approach was, and would most likely come of it, I would have listened. Add onto that- if that pilot would have given proactive advice on the correct approach, I would have listened to that as well. But we (myself and a few others) never had anyone else around. We knew it was dangerous, just not to what extent.

Having a mentor would have been huge. Going to Santa barbara for the whole P2 course would of been the right decision, but at least early mentorship could have helped.



*Attitude Change

I thought it was 'cool' to be flying so fast and close to terrain while speed flying. Even minor incidents were what we boasted about around the dinner table, how we squeeked through, and our fun, sketchy close calls. We were classic idiots, thinking that we were extreme or something. Extremely lame more like it. We would of been shunned in a normal pg club environment, for our crazy attitude towards risk. If I would have had a better attitude about the inherent risks and dangers of flying, I would have taken a more appropriate path while learning. I thought 'I had it' and that flying was simple enough. Like I said, idiot.



*Resources

These were already available before I started flying obviously, but I didn't utilize books, packets, videos, instructional manuals, or anything similar. But in the end, this is what kind of saved me, even with a bad attitude and without a mentor. After my first few months, I sought out any info or sources of flying knowledge. I started studying online and through publications anything I could find to try and make me safer and more informed.





And Ihor- Yes, I am now an instructor and tandem pilot, so as you can imagine I feel completely different about the learning process now vs. back then!

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J o s h C o h n







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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:50 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Glad you're a repentant sinner Dave! Somehow the St. Augustine line comes to mind, "Lord make me chaste but not yet!"



I remember giving you a call - think it was after reading your story about ridge soaring the sierra crest and getting blown back over it. I didn't get the impression it had much of an impact at the time but maybe that and a few near death experiences... Your early flying style was an inspiration of sorts to me. I often said, "If I had a terminal illness, that is how I'd fly!" Nice job on the Alps out and back and still having a girlfriend after that adventure!

E r f u r t B o b







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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:29 UTC Post subject: effectiveness I am not sure how your posting in this forum is going to help these people. They don't sound like they're going to read this and then change their attitude. And honestly, if somebody is so anxious to get in trouble, he'll have to learn the hard way. It is not as if the dangers are unknown.



Yes, that sounds cynical, but after all the trouble the pilots i know and myself have gone through to stay safe, i can't bring myself to empathise with that kind of attitude.

P e t e r B i e n e k

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DonorJoined: 14 Apr 2011Posts: 146

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:24 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Maybe they're not going to read this, but if just a few experienced pilots who read this would offer advice and act as mentors, it could lead them to the right path. You don't even have to be especially cool for your words to be accepted, because if someone's new to the sport, he will hang on your lips if you talk have valuable information.

C h a r l e s N







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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 13:43 UTC Post subject: Safety skills Self trained pilots are going to have a pretty steep learning curve and either become a statistic or get better quite quickly. I believe that there will always be people that don't know what they don't know and it's very hard to convince them otherwise. Making the access to mentoring and improving skills as easy as possible must be the way as these guys are going to fly anyway.



We were all in their position once and access to a cheap wing is very tempting to just having a go at it. Maybe the instructors and mentors should offer some free introductory life saver skills to these guys with the hope that they gain the vital knowledge they need and then become part of the main flying community and get proper training.



Certainly we never stop learning and skill sharing helps push the sport forward.



Cheers



Charles

Slow learner!

d a v e t u r n e r

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Location: Owen's Valley, CA Joined: 09 Mar 2011Posts: 298Location: Owen's Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 15:31 UTC Post subject: Re: effectiveness Erfurt Bob wrote: I am not sure how your posting in this forum is going to help these people. They don't sound like they're going to read this and then change their attitude. And honestly, if somebody is so anxious to get in trouble, he'll have to learn the hard way. It is not as if the dangers are unknown.



Yes, that sounds cynical, but after all the trouble the pilots i know and myself have gone through to stay safe, i can't bring myself to empathise with that kind of attitude.





Hi there Bob. To respond to your post- Actually my post here (and on the social media site facebook) has already started change up here thankfully. After the two other local pilots here in Mammoth saw the post, we had a meeting of the minds over dinner last night. There are only three certified pilots here in Mammoth (me, a P2[my graduated student], and a P3), but we all met up and had a nice discussion.



They were on board with what I was saying, and even seemed to realize some mistakes that we/they have made and ways we could help our growing community. With me strongly urging a few guidelines along, we came up with a few ideas and practices to mitigate this growing concern:



*No more taking people for high flights until they have the skills of a freshly graduated P2 student. That means they must have covered the curriculum, need to have the basic skills down (the task checklist, about 30-40 simple tasks/skills), and have passed the P2 exam. I am willing to give this program out to our locals here for a big discount if they cant afford any part of the process (or even for free if their broke!). Probably seems stupid for you guys to read this, as generally no one should be taking high flights without this!



*No more lending wings out to anyone who does not fit the above criteria, at least to high fly with.



*I am willing to distribute my instructional videos, pamphlets, and resources for a reduced cost to those who need a discounted rate due to income factors.



*I'm willing to give free instructional tandem flights to a select few here, just throw mw a tip to help cover the cost of my new tandem kit (I've always offered this).



-I'm not going to enforce any of this, I'm a friend and instructor, not a cop. These are guidelines that we are going to try and follow. If some want to break these guidelines, well we are trying here.





And for myself, I've decided to:

*Not go flying with people who don't follow the above guidelines. This will be an inconveinence for me, as everyone here but me has 4x4 trucks! This means I might have to hike up to a launch more often if people don't change, that's more than ok with me.



*I'm not going to offer advice, personal weather reports, or equipment to those not following the above guidelines. On the contrary though, I will go above and beyond this to those who are in fact trying to progress in a normal, safe way.



*I will keep encouraging positive change for safer flying, and never personally call someone out on anything unless they are a direct threat to themselves or the sites.





Now I must also say that the group in which I am targeting is a great group of folks here. They are nothing like I was when learning; I was crazy and advanced way too quick and was super dangerous, these guys are different. They don't do barrel rolls or ultra techy launches, in fact they fly quite normally. Problem is they have no idea how to control the wing if something goes wrong, how the wing even works, what legalities we must follow to not jepordize our sites, have never studied the P2 material, and will fly anything they can borrow. A different kind of dangerous than I was. But either form could in in disaster just the same.



Any feedback or constructive criticism will be warmly accepted, if you might have some ideas as well. I know that this is a problem not only here but through out or US flying scene: Colorado, Utah, North West, SoCal, Bay Area, and so on. Getting our new generation into the sport safely should be one of our top concerns as more experienced pilots. I do not have so much experience, thats why feedback from all of you could possibly help, to see if this problem has arisen elsewhere and how it was delt with then...





Well, I must be doing something right at least, as I heard through the grapevine that a few of the said folks were upset about all of this. Sorry, no more help from us getting yourself hurt, we are now here only to help progress safely.



Dave

Hi there Bob. To respond to your post- Actually my post here (and on the social media site facebook) has already started change up here thankfully. After the two other local pilots here in Mammoth saw the post, we had a meeting of the minds over dinner last night. There are only three certified pilots here in Mammoth (me, a P2[my graduated student], and a P3), but we all met up and had a nice discussion.They were on board with what I was saying, and even seemed to realize some mistakes that we/they have made and ways we could help our growing community. With me strongly urging a few guidelines along, we came up with a few ideas and practices to mitigate this growing concern:*No more taking people for high flights until they have the skills of a freshly graduated P2 student. That means they must have covered the curriculum, need to have the basic skills down (the task checklist, about 30-40 simple tasks/skills), and have passed the P2 exam. I am willing to give this program out to our locals here for a big discount if they cant afford any part of the process (or even for free if their broke!). Probably seems stupid for you guys to read this, as generally no one should be taking high flights without this!*No more lending wings out to anyone who does not fit the above criteria, at least to high fly with.*I am willing to distribute my instructional videos, pamphlets, and resources for a reduced cost to those who need a discounted rate due to income factors.*I'm willing to give free instructional tandem flights to a select few here, just throw mw a tip to help cover the cost of my new tandem kit (I've always offered this).-I'm not going to enforce any of this, I'm a friend and instructor, not a cop. These are guidelines that we are going to try and follow. If some want to break these guidelines, well we are trying here.And for myself, I've decided to:*Not go flying with people who don't follow the above guidelines. This will be an inconveinence for me, as everyone here but me has 4x4 trucks! This means I might have to hike up to a launch more often if people don't change, that's more than ok with me.*I'm not going to offer advice, personal weather reports, or equipment to those not following the above guidelines. On the contrary though, I will go above and beyond this to those who are in fact trying to progress in a normal, safe way.*I will keep encouraging positive change for safer flying, and never personally call someone out on anything unless they are a direct threat to themselves or the sites.Now I must also say that the group in which I am targeting is a great group of folks here. They are nothing like I was when learning; I was crazy and advanced way too quick and was super dangerous, these guys are different. They don't do barrel rolls or ultra techy launches, in fact they fly quite normally. Problem is they have no idea how to control the wing if something goes wrong, how the wing even works, what legalities we must follow to not jepordize our sites, have never studied the P2 material, and will fly anything they can borrow. A different kind of dangerous than I was. But either form could in in disaster just the same.Any feedback or constructive criticism will be warmly accepted, if you might have some ideas as well. I know that this is a problem not only here but through out or US flying scene: Colorado, Utah, North West, SoCal, Bay Area, and so on. Getting our new generation into the sport safely should be one of our top concerns as more experienced pilots. I do not have so much experience, thats why feedback from all of you could possibly help, to see if this problem has arisen elsewhere and how it was delt with then...Well, I must be doing something right at least, as I heard through the grapevine that a few of the said folks were upset about all of this. Sorry, no more help from us getting yourself hurt, we are now here only to help progress safely.Dave

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f l y c h i l d







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Location: Santa Barbara/Telluride Joined: 11 Apr 2013Posts: 39Location: Santa Barbara/Telluride

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 16:25 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Hi Dave. It seems that you need to organize a PG club in the mammoth/sierra area. When I learned to fly in Telluride in 1997 the Telluride Air Force had already been in existence for some time. Even as a certified P2 I wasn't allowed to launch off the ski area so my instructor present or at least a P4 guide pilot present. Rules and a way of doing things were already in place when I got into it. And for good reason, safety and site preservation. One yahoo doing his own thing can ruin access to aski area or other launch pretty quick. You should start a club in Mammoth. I think most people who want to get into flying would at least seek out the local club. At least it makes it harder for people to just go it alone. If I did something in appropriate, like top landing peaks midday etc. I'd hear about it. In the absence of that organized community its not surprising that people do whatever feel like. An organized club will help to create a culture of mentorship etc.

d a v e t u r n e r

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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 17:30 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Climbnsink wrote: Clubs are powerless if the launches are on free to most uses BLM land. Club power comes from exclusive landowner agreements. Besides social inclusion and mentoring is a better motivator then difficult/impossible to police club rules.



Yes, thats the case out here. All of our launches (except one, the ski resort) are on public land, either BLM or Forest Service. Introducing regulation or restrictions is not what we want out here, this place is great how it is now. With that being said, it would be nice though if all pilots who flew out here were at least flying at a P2(beginner) level AND be current with kiting and training hill sled rides before mountain flying. Not much to ask for in my opinion.



Edit: In reality, pilots flying here should all be rated as P4 (advanced) if flying in the big thermals, or P3 for general mountain flying.

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f l y c h i l d







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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 18:56 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide I wasn't advocating for rules and regs as much as the community and mentor ship aspects of having a club in your area. In the absence of a club and established flying culture people are going to do whatever they want, for better or worse. And for certain fly sites like the ski area you're going to want to have some rules in place so that you don't lose access to that site just because some yahoo goes and gets himself killed launching without the skills or knowledge necessary to do so safely. otherwise of course most of us don't want to see any rules and regulations. we want free flight to be free.

d a v e t u r n e r

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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 19:30 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Hey Neal,



You said:

''And for certain fly sites like the ski area you're going to want to have some rules in place so that you don't lose access to that site just because some yahoo goes and gets himself killed launching without the skills or knowledge necessary to do so safely.''



Our resort site is already heavily guarded by standards which are generally always followed. They were set up long ago, before me, but wasnt fully being followed until I had a meeting with the Resort and set up measures to make sure our site stays open and hopefully accident free. You can't fly there unless:





*You have a current P4 advanced license



*You have checked in with Bill Erb of Health & Safety at Mammoth Ski Resort both initially AND everytime before you fly (he often says 'no, too busy today' or no because of other reasons)



*You have given them a photo copy of your flying license and 3rd party liability insurance



*You get a physical site intro (or a thumbs up over the phone) from either Kari or myself





So as you can see, this site is already set up. Funny thing is that virtually no one but myself flies there because of all the hoops to jump through, and to top it off, its not a very consistent site. And you have to pay$ for the gondola up obviously. McGee is a better site, free, and has a rough road up it. We use that one almost always for local flying.



And your quote of- ''I wasn't advocating for rules and regs as much as the community and mentor ship aspects of having a club in your area.''

I agree with is of course. And that's what we have, Sierra Pilots as a loose club. We have the facebook group page and my website with lots of great info and members. So, its true that we don't have an official club or USHPA status.

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n d 4 s p d







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Location: Austria / Europe Joined: 05 Jan 2007Posts: 1126Location: Austria / Europe

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 0:00 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide



And I really see that as the main reason for the carnage we see on any popular PG takeoff, most people - due to lifelong miseduction as sheepish consumers - are rendered unable to take responsibility for their own actions, instead they either follow role models (cool basjumpers, cool freeriders, cool speedflyers, cool paragliders etc.) and try to copy their behavior - most of the time without even the slightest clue about the background knowledge that allows their role model of choice to pull those "cool" stunts in front of their seemingly omnipresent gopro lenses



OR



the try to outsource their own responsibility to someone else (the "pull me up that mountain" mountain guide, the "talk me trough my XC via radio" para guide, the "snowshoe" guide (what the hell ?) etc.) and there is a huge industry + politics promoting this "copy but dont think" behaviour (just think of the rediculous and more or less useless anti avalanche airbag backpacks worn by many middle aged resort riders these days - a worrying and visible expression of unbelievable unreflectedness and the illusion of "safety can be bought")



So from all sides, self responsibility as a basic rule of human action is under fire, so why on earth should someone trained by society and big corporations to follow a pre- defined, pre thought through, sexy pre designed just buy me role model change his/her behaviour and start acting different when he/she wants to take up paragliding or speedflying ?



I see no way for this to happen, self responsible behaviour by the masses, the will and consequence to really reflect about your own actions is not in fashion these days, in fact it never was.



In that light, thats what I posted as a reply on Daves Facebook Post:



---------------- begin FB post --------------------



Dave, optimistic approach, but lemmings are lemmings, they are made to fall off cliffs, there is no way around it.



@ All



Even here in Europe, with lots of (compared to US Standards) ultra qualified extremely rigid framed education programms and highly exprienced Trainers (thanks to the sports history dating back into the early 80ies) its hard to look at 2/3rds of the launches on popular holidaypilot's takeoffs (e.g. dolomites in autumn) where its too obvious that most people don't have a clue what they are doing risk management wise.



WHY ?



Well, there is this one big Problem with Paragliders: they are the easiest aircraft to fly known to mankind, leave the controls alone and you most likely will land alive, thats not possible with any other aircraft.



This fact makes many people (also well educated pilots) sometimes forget about the dangers, forget about the fact that you can't win acting against natures forces.



BUT as a paraglider (or speedflyer) pilot you need to be able to read your sourroundings in order to scan for suitable / non suitable or even dangerous conditions - if you dont have aquired the ability (self thought or otherwise) to permanently and efficiently perform that scan you will hurt yourself.



If you have aquired that ability, and even If you are super careful and conservative in your choices you still might hurt yourself.



Either way, dont let an easy to pilot aircraft fool you - its still an aircraft and any aircraft beeing flown by you has the inherent ability to kill you.



Dont get me wrong, don't let this hold you back from experiencing the magic of flying a backpack aircraft, but be aware of what you are in fact doing as a Pilot:



you cheat nature, man are not made to fly, so you need any trick in YOUR bag to walk away in the long run.



Educate yourself, stay safe, have fun (exactly this way round, not the other).



Paul,



Also see:



----------- end FB Post -----------------



Some additional thoughts around the topic:



Question is: will those who need education the most reach out for it ?



By simply looking at the usage statistics of my sites knowhow section quite a lot of US american pilots read the free info there, so I would lean towards thinking that they are interested in learning but as there is probably such a tiny little amount of PG and Speedflying pilots in the US compared to europe, it may be very very hard and cumbersome (= 4,5,6 hrs of driving) for them to get hold of proper, trustworthy education.



trustworthy....If I take flying lessons (doesn't matter if PG, Helicopters, iceclimbing or whatever), I want to take them from someone who has +20 yrs of experience, not from someone who has just a few yrs of experience.



And thats especially the problem with speedflying instruction, I have so far only met "Instructors" who all had considerably less experience then I have (and I just got 10 yrs, nothing at all in terms of airtime), and mostly PG crossover Instructors with very little knowledge about the true dangers of speedflying low on the deck and almost all I know of have quit giving speedflying instruction due to legal restraints/dangers and lack of clients (as most possible clients are very young and prefer to learn on their own or with friends) ..... as a more mature client, would I trust someone as a trainer who picked up the sport he tries to train me in just a few yrs ago ? most likely no..... classic catch 22



So even here in Austria where I have at least 5 or 6 Paragliding shools within 2 hrs driving distance, if I would start Speedflying now instead of 2004 the situation regarding proper high end SF tuition would not be any better then it was 2004 (when anything was pure trial and error).



The only BIG difference is that there are a few people out there who have gathered lots of experience since then, but (as its also the case with me) dont have the time to pass on their knowledge to others in real life (thats why I at least wrote a few short essais and posts here and put them online for free, as some sort of "payback" for what I have learned from so many others regarding paragliding and flying in general).



Truth be told, there is also little to no financial "reward" in training newbies (at least for me) as its a repetitive and relatively boring process that does not improve my own flying abilities at all (aux contraire, I train someone else while I could be flying myself !), and as long as I can make more money much easier in "classic" areas of business I would never engage myself in high risk activities (in terms of legal consequences if anything goes wrong) like teaching speedflying, paragliding, mountaineering, climbing or offpiste skiing to others.



Same Problem as in other areas of education - those who would be most qualified are not available due to lack of financial respectively "limited lifetime" motivation, and those who are available often are far from beeing the best (experience wise and current knowledge wise) - also widely the case in our school and university system.



Regarding mentorship, yes that works, but thats almost always happening due to long standing friendships and a huge overlap of interests, so for someone coming from "outside" it would be more or less impossible to get that sort of high quality mentoring / tuitition from others who are "in the know".



Totally different world in PG were lots of experienced fulltime Instructors are available (some of them seem to have a questionable psychological motivation, but that often also lays in the eye of the student, and its good to have a choice between different characters to learn from) but they seem to attract mainly the "I want to outsource my repsonsibilities" crowd, while the "cool" crowd usually finds it pretty "uncool" to learn from an old, careful (= boring) person.



As written, lemmings are lemmings, they are made to fall off cliffs, there is not much you can do about it except changing the eduction rules for the whole lemming society - unlikely to happen - unfortunately.



All, the best, and If you feel offended by what has been written above, take a minute and think about why.



Paul As a Pilot - in my philosophy - you are responsible for your own actions, your own eduction and your own continous lifelong learning process, there is no way to "outsource" that to a Guide, Trainer or similar.And I really see that as the main reason for the carnage we see on any popular PG takeoff, most people - due to lifelong miseduction as sheepish consumers - are rendered unable to take responsibility for their own actions, instead they either follow role models (cool basjumpers, cool freeriders, cool speedflyers, cool paragliders etc.) and try to copy their behavior - most of the time without even the slightest clue about the background knowledge that allows their role model of choice to pull those "cool" stunts in front of their seemingly omnipresent gopro lensesORthe try to outsource their own responsibility to someone else (the "pull me up that mountain" mountain guide, the "talk me trough my XC via radio" para guide, the "snowshoe" guide (what the hell ?) etc.) and there is a huge industry + politics promoting this "copy but dont think" behaviour (just think of the rediculous and more or less useless anti avalanche airbag backpacks worn by many middle aged resort riders these days - a worrying and visible expression of unbelievable unreflectedness and the illusion of "safety can be bought")So from all sides, self responsibility as a basic rule of human action is under fire, so why on earth should someone trained by society and big corporations to follow a pre- defined, pre thought through, sexy pre designed just buy me role model change his/her behaviour and start acting different when he/she wants to take up paragliding or speedflying ?I see no way for this to happen, self responsible behaviour by the masses, the will and consequence to really reflect about your own actions is not in fashion these days, in fact it never was.In that light, thats what I posted as a reply on Daves Facebook Post:---------------- begin FB post --------------------Dave, optimistic approach, but lemmings are lemmings, they are made to fall off cliffs, there is no way around it.@ AllEven here in Europe, with lots of (compared to US Standards) ultra qualified extremely rigid framed education programms and highly exprienced Trainers (thanks to the sports history dating back into the early 80ies) its hard to look at 2/3rds of the launches on popular holidaypilot's takeoffs (e.g. dolomites in autumn) where its too obvious that most people don't have a clue what they are doing risk management wise.WHY ?Well, there is this one big Problem with Paragliders: they are the easiest aircraft to fly known to mankind, leave the controls alone and you most likely will land alive, thats not possible with any other aircraft.This fact makes many people (also well educated pilots) sometimes forget about the dangers, forget about the fact that you can't win acting against natures forces.BUT as a paraglider (or speedflyer) pilot you need to be able to read your sourroundings in order to scan for suitable / non suitable or even dangerous conditions - if you dont have aquired the ability (self thought or otherwise) to permanently and efficiently perform that scan you will hurt yourself.If you have aquired that ability, and even If you are super careful and conservative in your choices you still might hurt yourself.Either way, dont let an easy to pilot aircraft fool you - its still an aircraft and any aircraft beeing flown by you has the inherent ability to kill you.Dont get me wrong, don't let this hold you back from experiencing the magic of flying a backpack aircraft, but be aware of what you are in fact doing as a Pilot:you cheat nature, man are not made to fly, so you need any trick in YOUR bag to walk away in the long run.Educate yourself, stay safe, have fun (exactly this way round, not the other).Paul, www.schnellcraft.com Also see: http://www.schnellcraft.com/index.php/knowhow - its for free, you just need to be able to read more then 20 words in a row - yea I know it hurts, but thats the price for it ,-)----------- end FB Post -----------------Some additional thoughts around the topic:Question is: will those who need education the most reach out for it ?By simply looking at the usage statistics of my sites knowhow section quite a lot of US american pilots read the free info there, so I would lean towards thinking that they are interested in learning but as there is probably such a tiny little amount of PG and Speedflying pilots in the US compared to europe, it may be very very hard and cumbersome (= 4,5,6 hrs of driving) for them to get hold of proper, trustworthy education.trustworthy....If I take flying lessons (doesn't matter if PG, Helicopters, iceclimbing or whatever), I want to take them from someone who has +20 yrs of experience, not from someone who has just a few yrs of experience.And thats especially the problem with speedflying instruction, I have so far only met "Instructors" who all had considerably less experience then I have (and I just got 10 yrs, nothing at all in terms of airtime), and mostly PG crossover Instructors with very little knowledge about the true dangers of speedflying low on the deck and almost all I know of have quit giving speedflying instruction due to legal restraints/dangers and lack of clients (as most possible clients are very young and prefer to learn on their own or with friends) ..... as a more mature client, would I trust someone as a trainer who picked up the sport he tries to train me in just a few yrs ago ? most likely no..... classic catch 22So even here in Austria where I have at least 5 or 6 Paragliding shools within 2 hrs driving distance, if I would start Speedflying now instead of 2004 the situation regarding proper high end SF tuition would not be any better then it was 2004 (when anything was pure trial and error).The only BIG difference is that there are a few people out there who have gathered lots of experience since then, but (as its also the case with me) dont have the time to pass on their knowledge to others in real life (thats why I at least wrote a few short essais and posts here and put them online for free, as some sort of "payback" for what I have learned from so many others regarding paragliding and flying in general).Truth be told, there is also little to no financial "reward" in training newbies (at least for me) as its a repetitive and relatively boring process that does not improve my own flying abilities at all (aux contraire, I train someone else while I could be flying myself !), and as long as I can make more money much easier in "classic" areas of business I would never engage myself in high risk activities (in terms of legal consequences if anything goes wrong) like teaching speedflying, paragliding, mountaineering, climbing or offpiste skiing to others.Same Problem as in other areas of education - those who would be most qualified are not available due to lack of financial respectively "limited lifetime" motivation, and those who are available often are far from beeing the best (experience wise and current knowledge wise) - also widely the case in our school and university system.Regarding mentorship, yes that works, but thats almost always happening due to long standing friendships and a huge overlap of interests, so for someone coming from "outside" it would be more or less impossible to get that sort of high quality mentoring / tuitition from others who are "in the know".Totally different world in PG were lots of experienced fulltime Instructors are available (some of them seem to have a questionable psychological motivation, but that often also lays in the eye of the student, and its good to have a choice between different characters to learn from) but they seem to attract mainly the "I want to outsource my repsonsibilities" crowd, while the "cool" crowd usually finds it pretty "uncool" to learn from an old, careful (= boring) person.As written, lemmings are lemmings, they are made to fall off cliffs, there is not much you can do about it except changing the eduction rules for the whole lemming society - unlikely to happen - unfortunately.All, the best, and If you feel offended by what has been written above, take a minute and think about why.Paul

P a u l . W







Joined: 27 Feb 2013

Posts: 5

Post karma: +1 / -0

Joined: 27 Feb 2013Posts: 5

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:30 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Mentoring seems to be the most valuable thing. Making it available may need some work:



Get your club going. Have a regular, predictable monthly beer together in the same place each time. Even if its just one of you, but maybe with a suitably identifiable flying t-shirt!



Get some signs up on the main launches, with advice about flying, ending with something along the lines of "at least you should have a Pxxx rating and have received a site breifing".



Put the details of your club and an invitation to your club beer night on the signs.



And put info such as the USHPA and this forum link on the signs.



Then the new folk will at least have access to some information and mentoring.



Have you seen those big signs about bears at trailheads - got my attention as a tourist going for a walk in the woods!



Cheers,

another Paul.

M a t t P







Joined: 10 Oct 2014

Posts: 58

Post karma: +27 / -6

Joined: 10 Oct 2014Posts: 58

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:49 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide I've been experiencing this for decades...and so have other veteran hang glider pilots in the Sierra Area.

We've seen it all. Some walk away fine, some get wheelchairs, some lose their lives.



As someone pointed out, there's nothing you can do to restrict it from public lands. It's not so much that these pilots are "rogue" in the sense they want to rebel. It's a matter of time and money. Usually the nearest certified school is many miles away and it's expensive. So these pilots don't want to invest all that. They get a basic rating like an H2 or P2 or no rating at all. They know they can legally do it...so they do.



The Dunlap and Tollhouse area was my flying backyard for decades.



We local pilots have determined it's best to take these pilots under our wing. Give them some knowledge. Don't scold them. Don't make them feel like crap. Don't threaten them. That will just upset them and create a negative environment. Just talk to them and tell them your experiences. Try to help them get instruction or a discount or recommendations. Mention how you've seen someone get hurt really bad...but you appreciate their desire to fly and provide growth to the sport of HG of PG. They will most likely change their mind.



Also, we all need to focus on teaching out of town pilots the good and bad areas to land.

An example is Dunlap this year. The PG pilots had a big meet there and many pilots landed wherever they ran out of air. It's great a PG can do that. However, they can spook cattle, horses, upset land owners and even shut off the towns power, when one landed in power lines. We HG pilots have been working on relationships and LZ's for years. When this happens, it's not only dangerous. It's takes all our hard work and burns it down.



I'm a new PG pilot on the training hill in Santa Barbara.



Paragliding is wonderful so far in many aspects and I love it.

However, having extensive mountain experience HG, I will not be flying the Sierra's for a while.

This respect needs to be spread amongst the PG community in a way that's not insulting.



Matt Potter

#58200

s h o r t c u t







Joined: 17 Feb 2005

Posts: 28

Post karma: +9 / -1

Location: Northern Alabama, USA Joined: 17 Feb 2005Posts: 28Location: Northern Alabama, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 18:39 UTC Post subject: RE: Dangerous trend in the Sierra, untrained pilots & incide Hey Dave, Huge respect for what you've done and what you continue to do. I'm a Safety officer for one of my local clubs and have been struggling to find good, effective answers to maintain and improve the safety at our sites. I'm remembering a conversation with a Site Captain (and longime Hang Glider Pilot)at Slide Mountain several years ago facing the same challenges. There were recurring instances where seemingly qualified pilots (P2,P3 rated) with 50 or 60 hrs at coastal sites, showing up at this East-facing, thermal, venue. These pilots were confident and could kite very well, but they had no real mountain experience. The typical scenarios is that after they would launch the would: 1) Fly to the the wrong area, get overpowered; 2) Think its getting "light"..when its really "going cross" and try to scratch; and 3) let themselves drift too far back and not be able to penetrate back out front. All three of these scenarios would result in pilots crashing into the trees and need to be rescued. (Hangie rescues were many years apart).



Some of the things we try to enforce at our local sites is:



Must have functioning radio tuned to the proper frequency.Admittedly the radios seem to fail when you really need them,; but, it gives us a change to direct the unwitting pilot out of a bad area.



Tell them that "Scratching" is not allowed, and explain why...and if they forget, get on the radio and tell them to move away.



Tell them the "Must stay out in front of the ridge", and explain why...and warn them on the radio if they're drifting too far back.



We (our club as a whole) tries to be vigilant toward the inexperienced, and guide them accordingly. We are not "appointed Mentors" or Instructors, or "Observers"...we are actively watching our for not just ourselves but each other too.



One other thing ( I've take a fair amount of criticism for this) I still profess is that: If you are a P2, and this is the FIRST Time at a particular Mountain Site you must have made arrangements with an Instructor to either be there with you....and teach you how to fly that mountain site....OR...a note from an instructor that says you are Qualified to fly that site (have been trained to fly similar mountain sites) that note needs to include that instructors' phone #. The Site Captain/monitor/observer/mentor might be convinced that you'll likely not need to be rescued if you have evidence that you have paid for some Mountain instruction.



Thanks to all the instructors!



-Greg