ETHICAL CONUNDRUMS



What is the correct plural of conundrum? Colin Pidgeon, Derry, N Ireland Conundrums (OED). John K Bromilow, Exbourne, Devon In English : conundrums. It seems obvious really. Darren, Lancaster Conundrums. Contrary to what one might think, it is not a Latin word, and is described in my dictionary as 'Ety. dub.' If it was Latin it would be conundra. But it ain't, so it isn't. R Tanner, St Monans, Scotland Surely the correct plural of 'conundrum' is 'conundra', given its Latin origin. That the OED gives it as 'conundrums' is no surprise - in an age when even the BBC refers to "stadiums" and "forums", perhaps those authorities which were once held to be sacred and invoilate can no longer be depended upon to maintain standards. Phillip Moreland, Durham, England No, those authorities describe the language at the time they were written. Insisting on giving Latin and Greek words that have become part of the English language their generic plurals is mindless pendantry divorced from simple communication. For instance, 'agenda' is a singular in English but derives from the plural of a Latin gerundive. If you have five meetings you have five agendas. Wake up and smell the English! Charlie Hartill, London Mr Harthill is of course correct, inasmuch as the key to communication is being understood. However, the questioner requested the correct plural, rather than the one which has come into common usage (through the evolution of the language, laziness, and the decline of the teaching of classics in schools). I wonder if Mr Harthill also refers to hippopotamuses, octopuses, or referendums... Philip Moreland, Durham, England I hope that Philip Moreland says octopodes not octopi, given that octopus is 3rd declension Greek not 2nd declension Latin. Actually I am sure he does, but for anyone to whom this is news, the word octopodes has four syllables. Pelham Barton, Birmingham, UK Well I, for one, certainly refer to hippopotamuses and referendums because I am a native speaker of modern English. It's also about time we got rid of using 'an' for 'a' in front of a leading 'h' - 'an hotel' and 'an history' are irritating, outdated linguistic conceits. Howard Rose, Dublin Wrong, all of you. The correct plural of 'conundrum' is, of course, 'Notes and Queries'. Now, would anyone care to provide me with the plural of 'overbearing pedants'...? Garrick Alder, London The plural of conundrums need detain us no longer. Just say 'puzzles', you pedants. Mike Bird, Maryport, Cumbria Does that mean ma is the plural of mum rather than the same thing? William Barrett, London NW10 If Mr Moreland could spell my name correctly, I might be inclined to take his criticisms more seriously. As to suggesting that "octopus" is third declension Greek, that is also nonsense. Why is it not spelled "octopous" in that case? It's a latinised for m of a Greek word like so many others and now it has passed into normal English usage. Something else I doubt is the back formation of "Magus" from "Magi", since that is a Persian word not a Latin one. This is the same as the fallacy of determining what a word "really means" by establishing an etymology ? that is why the OED relies on citations. Charlie Hartill, London UK I don't know. Its all 2nd declension Greek to me. Nick Medcroft, Cheltenham, UK The conundrum is the meaning of the word "correct". Language is a living, growing construct of the human mind and, as such, changes constantly. The question, "What is the correct distance between my current location and any other location?" varies as my location changes. Similarly, any form of the plural of "conundrum" which conveys the meaning to the intended audience is a correct plural. Rocky Kurchak, Akron, Ohio, USA Mr Hartill accuses me of nonsense when I say that octopus is 3rd declension Greek. I was simply using "is" as short for "is derived from". The reason that it is not spelt "octopous" is that in Latin, "ou" is never a diphthong, so that a Latin word "octopous" would have four syllables. When Greek words are transliterated into Latin, the convention is that upsilon alone is represented by the letter y, while the Greek diphthong omicron upsilon is represented by the single letter u. Matters are complicated by a further convention that the 2nd declension nominative masculine ending omicron sigma is Latinised to "-us". An example of this is the name of Jesus Christ, which in Latin is "Jesus Christus", with Jesus 4th declension and Christus 2nd declension. The Greek form has the spelling Iota eta sigma omicron upsilon sigma Chi rho iota sigma tau omicron sigma. Pelham Barton, Birmingham UK I feel I have the right to defend myself against the charge of writing nonsense. When I said "octopus is 3rd declension Greek" I was merely using "is" as short for "is derived from". The Latinised form "octopus" conforms to the rules for transliteration which respect diphthongs, thus: alpha alone becomes "a", iota alone becomes "i", omicron alone becomes "o", upsilon alone becomes "y", alpha iota together become "ae", alpha upsilon together become "au", omicron iota together become "oe", omicron upsilon together become "u". Note that in Latin, "ou" is never a diphthong, so a Latin word "octopous" would have four syllables, whereas the Greek word converted to "octopus" has three. Pelham Barton, Birmingham, UK Mr Barton is right in his explanation of "ou" & all that... except that he makes the very common mistake of calling the Greek "omicron-upsilon" a diphthong. A diphthong is a SOUND whose quality changes mid-vowel, such as English "oi", which begins as "aw" & ends up as "ee". The Greek "omicron-upsilon" is a digraph (a sound represented by two letters). But now we're just being pedantic. Peadar Mac Con Aonaigh, Brixton, London Garrick Alder- the plural of 'overbearing pedants' is, of course, 'overbearing pedants.' The SINGULAR, need I add, is 'overbearing pedant.' Now if we could only find one somewhere I could demonstrate... Tom Chivers, Oxford UK As the word conundrum's origin is unknown, there is no rule for forming its plural. However, the only viable methods are to follow either the convention of adding an -s or, in imitating many Latin plurals, supplanting its ultima 'rum' with 'ra'. Both are equally correct and intelligible. Raiffar Doremitzwr, Gwynedd, Wales, UK The plural of conundrum is conundra. Myles A. Lynch, Bloomfield, NY, USA This has all been slightly entertaining reading. I think we're at a point where a poll would be nice. "How do you prefer to pluralize 'conundrum'?" My vote, which would be but one of scores, would be 'conundra'. Savage, West Virginia, USA Enough, already! One conundrum is enough. Let's just use the simple addition of 's'. And, it ain't Greek to me. Bill Guild, Sleepy Hollow, USA "Similarly, any form of the plural of "conundrum" which conveys the meaning to the intended audience is a correct plural." Does this mean that "connundrums" is a correct plural? I'm sure it would convey the meaning. Conrad, London, England Following generally accepted Latin plurals currently in use (curriculum to curricula), I lean toward the conundrum/conundra relationship between singular and plural usage - primarily because the Latin plural is far less awkward when spoken and far less likely to be challenged when written. Thomas R. Childers, PhD, Camas, Washington USA One of the conundrums yet to be resolved in my life is how one can become so involved in an esoteric and light-hearted discussion being carried on by others some half a world away. My only contribution to this exposition of erudition is to suggest the proper adjective for the antagonists herein is much more appropriately stated as "entertaining pedants" than the allusion to unidentified "overbearing pedants." Thank you all; I now feel comfortable in my own penantry using either conundra or conundrums, depending on the sense of humor of the audience. Dan M Davis, Marina del Rey, California, USA I have sat here engrossed for half an hour after an engaging debate at work today where some suggestions included 'conundri', 'conundrae', 'conundinomie', 'conundrinopigomipingus' - all of which I dismissed as being utterly uneducated guesses. I do not believe in the concept of overbearing pedants. Pedantry is a rare and beautiful thing these days and the mere sniff of it brings joy to my heart. So my hearty congrats to all of you who felt moved enough by this topic to contribute. By the way, the plural is conundrums. But I think conundra sounds posher. Katy Attwood, Manchester UK A pedant is a piece of cloth that flies from the top of the mast of a ship whose captain has a stuffy nose. An overbearing pedant is a bigger piece flying above a smaller one. Stafford Smith, Seattle USA I was enjoying the debate until all these Americans started joining in! Andy Malec, Ventura, California USA Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston pie, I fly can't bird but a bird can't fly... - A. A Milne. Or, there seems to be a(n) hearty prevalence of perversity among these posters... How can a conundra (my favorite, it sounds cleverer than conundrums - although not nearly as good as conundrinopigomipingus, which is suitably preposterous in these circumstance) bring about so much meaningless argument? Wittgenstein would be chuckling if he could get a hold of this webpage... Mark Pritchard, London, England Why not let the old fox have his way? Ben Jonson has the OED's earliest plural: 1605 B. JONSON Volpone V. ii, I must ha' my crotchets! And my conundrums! In fact, no other form of the plural appears in the OED. As a rule, English tends to Anglicize, which is why we see forms such as "indexes" instead of "indices." The wonder is that we retain the morphology of loan words at all. Michael Twomey, Ithaca, NY, USA Surely two octopusses equals either one hexadecapus or one cat o'nine tails, one of the felines hailing from the Isle of Man. I decline to comment further, on grammatical grounds. It's a bit of a conundrum, really. Pete Wigens, Stroud, Gloucestershire, UK I have truly enjoyed this discourse. Normally I don't respond to things like this, but I wanted to thank all of you, no matter from which side of the pond, for a delightful half hour. All I wanted was to find the "correct" plural of "conundrum." None of my five dictionaries helped. But as I was reading through this, something my linguistics professor once said popped into my mind: "If you, as a native speaker of a language, utter a sentence that is heard and completely understood by another native speaker, then what you have said is grammatically, phonetically, even completely semantically correct." So I'll use "conundra" when I am among pedants and "conundrums" when I address the rest of the world. M. Maxwell, Oklahoma City, USA To go by Google (that crowd-sourcing arbiter of all factoids, aka Sheikh Google in Saudi Arabia), it must be conundrums (838,000 hits), not conundra (only 57,800 hits), though I'll stick with the latter just to be persnickety (192,000 hits). David Magier, Princeton, New Jersey, USA I must say that this is the most entertaining internet discussion I think I have ever read. The plural of conundrum would be conundra if the word were Latin, but it's not. The earliest attestation of the word is in the late 16th century, in English. Therefore, though it appears to be modeled on Latin in the fashion of nonsense words like "hocus pocus," it is not Latin. If you want to be pedantic, by all means do, since many of you have been doing a fantastic job of it thus far, but from my view as a Latin scholar, conundrums is the preferable form. The plural of drum is drum, not dra, and why? It, too, is not Latin. Drew Terhune, Eugene, USA Messrs. Barton &c.: Just to add to the pedantryGreek omicron-upsilon didn't represent a diphthong at all, but is generally considered, at least, to be a long u (as opposed to the unmarked, but existent, long upsilon, which represented the fronted version of that vowel like the German ü), so it made sense for speakers of Latin to transliterate it as u. Guy Tabachnick, New York United States The plural of conundrum is no more conundrum than the plural of Sultan is Salawtin, or the plural of Vizir, Vozaraw. Sorry about the lack of fonts, but it has not kept the Greeks out of this discussion. Tim Jones, Wezembeek-Oppem, Belgium I think the plural of conundrum should be conundra, as it sounds and looks more logical. There is a program on the ABC in Australia, called "Letters & Numbers" and has a segment on conundrums, where the word is given in a mixed version and contestants have to work it out, as do viewers. A special dictionary could be made up of conundra. Helen Scott, Mitcham, Australia Conundrums vs. conundra: it all comes under the Theory of Relativity. If you're in the tundra then it's conundra. If you're in the doldrums then it's conundrums. What could be simpler? Alexian Gregory, Verona, NJ, US I must reiterate the joy I have had reading these comments. As a schizophrenic author(ie pedant and realist at the same time) I have found everyone's input most informative, funny and a joy to peruse. Many thanks "Hoc in absentia" Jonathan Trapman, Glastonbury, UK Dear Conundrums, Please note that "conundrum" is first attested in Thomas Nashe's _Saffron Walden_ (1596), where it is used as a pejorative term for . . . wait for it . . . *pedants*. ("So will I...driue him to confesse himselfe a Conundrum, who now thinks he hath learning inough to proue the saluation of Lucifer.") Jonathan Shull, IN, US FWIW...Webster's 2nd (the gold standard) gives it as "conundrums" (origin unknown) H. S, New York, US What a wonderful forum! Thank you all for the entertainment and fun. Incidentally, there is a small town in Queensland that goes by the name of Caloundra. A twin town would be Caloundrum? I would rest my case, however obscure, were it not for the plethora of dipthongs around Melbourne as the weather warms. Jonathan Pearlman, Melbourne Australia Pleasant reading, and a welcome respite. Thank you all. An earlier post mentioned, among the examples of faux-latinate coinage, "hocus pocus," which sets me to wondering about its proper plural. "Hocus Pocii," I suppose, since the alternative, "Hocii Poccii," would cause us to put the right foot in, and put the right foot out and so on, and I'd hate to see it. As to the original question, I favor "conundra" for elegance' sake, but since the question came up for me in the context of drafting an email to an editor-in-chief, I put both in and suggested he decide. I'll report back if he deigns to decide. Keep up the good work, and a happy new year to you all. Wayne Brody, Yonkers, New York US Pure brilliance. I thought it was conundra, and 'googled' it to check. I confess I am none the wiser, but much happier nevertheless. C A Marris, London, UK 'Magus' may have started off as a Persian word, but it came to us through Latin, so 'magi' as the plural is sound. Garry Gillard, Fremantle, Australia Because the word is a false Latin word with its origins in humor, one could take two approaches here depending on the effect one desires to produce. If one accepts the word as a common English word now divorced from its absurdist origins, one might simply add an s to make the plural. If one wants to play on the absurdity of the false Latin origins of the word and increase the volume and intensity of the effect, one might write or say "conundra." The silly cleverness of the absurd Latin plural of an absurd false Latin English word might induce a smile from the reader or listener if delivered in a tongue-in-cheek tone. Wink wink. I'm being silly here. Isn't this nonsense? Christopher Canfield, San Francisco, California, US I was just looking for a word to rhyme with tundra - but my you all make the study of linguistics sound like fun! M E, LA USA could it be just simply 'conundrum!' A hard question which the answer will involve a 'pun'=deliberate use of a word having several meanings or the two words having the same sound but different meanings jodie, perth australia Conundrums. But all of you guys are really funny, brilliant and fascinating. No conundrum there. Jenny, Columbia, South Carolina United States of America Conundrums. I used to go to a cafe that did a "Full English". The waitress would ask: "who ordered the breakfastses". Possibly would cause some contributors above a bout of indigestion. John Bullard, Chichester United Kingdom De pluralibus certe est disputandum! JC, Oxford UK Doggerel Upon a Puzzle Through nights and days how many fought I, Questing this answer's Truth- Oh, thought I, What a sweet and bitter pill we've swallowed, As we battle still upon this field, This field of etymic delights, Yet hearken not, nor sounds nor sights glean, Of Old Oxford's pranksters' high, keen, Laughter and thigh-slapping pokes, To see us jousting yet o'er ghostly jokes. The truly correct answer, of course, is quinombromodes. Joel H Nance MD, Taos, NM USA I am another to have enjoyed the exchanges. However, I am excited to report (from a restaurant high on Etna) that the entire discussion has been taken to a new level by its appearance as a footnote (p 42) in the latest Terry Pratchett, "Snuff". An accolade to be cherished! Gordon Lishman, Burnley, UK The English language is sacrosanct and cannot be changed upon the whim of a tabloid newspaper or the BBC - and certainly not by foreign websites such as Google. There is correct English, and there is incorrect English. Pedantry plays no part in the use of correct English. Philip Appleby, Derby, England In reply to Mark Pritchard, I quote 'Crustulum crustulum crustulum cru, cano aenigmata, canis ac tu?' This discussion has been illuminating and entertaining with respect to my dissertation on the subject of nonsense Latin words and the translation of English nonsense poetry into Latin, and your quotation from A. A. Milne has made my day! Signed, An Amused Classicist Sarah Glanville, Edinburgh, Scotland Yes, but what is the plural of Weetabix? Katie Jones, Mystic CT USA I vote for "Weetabixen". Or, in New Zealandese, "Weet-Bixen". Terry Clyde, Wellington New Zealand Well, I think 'conundrums' will get the point across, but it doesn't sound as nice as 'conundra', nor does it show much evidence of thought/consideration about the usage of that plural. Dr Samuel Furse, London, UK Referendum is not (as it might appear) a Latin 3rd Dec. Neuter noun (it is a gerund) and ought to take the plural 'Referendums'. We have a lot of these in Ireland. Conor Kelly, Cork, Ireland Guys. Chill. I checked with Microsoft Word, it's "conundrums". Peace. Chris C., Toronto Canada The word conundrum, of unknown origin, means confusing and difficult problem or question, or a riddle, often depending on a pun, or any perplexing question or thing. It can only be felt and not touched, thats why it is an abstract noun. If one goes by a lexicon, conundrum is pluralised as conundrums. Biswanath Bhattacharjee, Bhadreshwar, Hooghly, West Bengal India Alright, you've caught me. I am a reformed man, no longer automatically prejudiced against what I had, heretofore, thought of as a canker on the tongue of of fluid discourse: pedantry! So, without Googling, may I request a definition from the wags and sages of these rags and pages? Is there such a thing as an undrum of which a conundrum would be a more complex example? And as for the ethical kind, what would that be? Would it be the lesser disgrace to have one's undrums questioned? Alfonzo Luz, Formerly Venice Bch, Calif. U.S.A. As a rule of thumdrum, conundrums brings American pedants out in hives and conundra English ones. Vive la différence. Simon Barrett, London, England It's not of Latin origin, so using Latin rules wouldn't make sense. It's origin is unknown, so one should default to English pluralization rules: "conundrums" is the plural. In response to Wayne Brody, the "-ii" ending is only for words that already end in "-ius", such as "radius". If "hocus pocus" were an actual Latin phrase, the plural would be "hoci poci" if both words were second declension masculine and not third or fourth declension. Kai T., Santa Cruz, California USA Conundrum is not a Latin word, but the best theory for its origin is that it was invited as a parody of a Latin word by students, probably at Oxford University. It is not unreasonable that a parody of a Latin noun should have a Latin plural, so I'll go with Conundra. Peter Coles, Brighton, UK Don't know but I wish the Americans would stop referring to a lot of Lego as Legos. Emmy, Middlesbrough UK To the extent that I had thought about the origins of 'conundrum' (not a lot), I had associated it with the latin deponent verb 'conor', meaning 'I try'. So a conundrum is something which you try to solve. How the derivation might have worked syntactically, I haven't a clue. This doesn't solve the plural issue: on the whole, and depending on the audience, I prefer the anglicised form. Ivor Davies, South Cave, UK



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