Quote from: JesterHell696

With all the work on religion will it be possible to choose what god your adventurer/s worships and at what "level"?



Quote from: Killermartian

Is it possible for two religions to claim the same city as their holy city?



Quote from: Beag

1. Seeing as investigating villainous plots will be a new activity in the villain fleshing out update I am wondering how easy or hard it could potentially be to discover said plots. In the examples you have given the player finds out about the plot dealing with local troubles but will it also be possible to learn about plots by just walking around in town ease dropping on people? For example could you learn about a plot being conducted by the civilization's spy master by just hanging out around the castle in the center of town?

2. With religious structures getting more variety will we start seeing monasteries on the side of major roads outside of a civilization site?

3. On a similar note will smaller civilization sites like hamlets and hillocks now have the possibility of including small religious structures like shrines?

4. Currently one special purpose some religious structures can have is being a catacombs, with all the new kinds of religious structures will new kinds of religious structures with special purposes come into being possible? If so can you name a few.



Quote from: FantasticDorf

If we are moving past the bulk raiding/interactive civ screen arc, will you be keeping it synchronized and updated with other features you are working upon for villians onwards?



Figuring that right now we can't actually see rumored areas and sites like kobold caves unless they are revealed in other ways explicitly (answers varying from, using advanced world parameter to cheat viewing the cave, using a hearthsperson adventurer to explore on civ's behalf before embarking, or letting them steal a book to get a rough rumor co-ordinate even though this doesn't reveal the site after)



If its not a little bit too sly in saying, the function of a scout might be needed for the oversight if any villian in fortress mode you want to do anything to disrupt or break the agent network amongst your own dwarves can just hide in a lair or shrine and become untouchable while it spreads all over corrupting your population.



Quote from: Mediterraneo

Is any form of sincretism planned soon either in form of outright melding of religions (of the same god or otherwise) or in the form of inclusion of some elements of a religion in others?

I mean, the number of resurrecting sun-gods that have their birthday on the 25 of december in our world is surprising.

And in your example of insignificance from 12/13/18 Current Development feed:



Quote Take these two religions, the Romantic Faith and the Adorable Creed, founded within five years of each other a century ago in the same dwarven fortress by two different prophets of the birth god Zefon. Each has only a single priest, the aged dwarf prophets preaching their own version of Zefon, but they've had impact throughout the area



Wouldn't the (chance of) melding the two prophets efforts have the potential of generating interesting emerging stories?



On the other hand:

Will there be any form of heresy included? Centrifugal forces inside religions, due to doctrinal or power sharing issues or both? If yes, will there be he chance of escalating and composing conflicts in it, getting to a reconciliation or to genocidal violence, or any point in between?



Quote from: downwithgdi

With the upcoming (ha) release of the Myths and Magic update, do you have plans to implement better awareness/simulation of body changes for magically altered creatures? As of right now, the only hint of symptoms given from magical effects are on the description screen, and usually hardly do it justice.



For instance, if a creature's body size changes because of a magic effect, can you expect to see a prompt such as 'everything seems to get smaller/larger' in the action log?



Quote from: falcc

1. Can you expand some more on how vermin-sized creatures/pets work as of now? I know you can move cave spiders into a specific room in fort mode and they'll keep existing there and spinning webs. But does that already happen in adventure mode? Do they unload with the rest of the site, or can you catch cave spiders and start them spinning useless webs in your wooden tower already? Will it be different for the spiders you start adventure mode with if you get that sort of vermin pet? Your important trained spider. What about other sites like catacombs that keep track of the items you've left in them?



2. Is a vermin pet going to attack in any circumstance, on your shoulder or off, and does that mean assassins can now let a poisonous spider into a room if NPCs don't also have pets that can attack such a small creature? Can your pet-caused deaths be tracked to you as a crime, or through syndromes made by pets you own? If you dump a bunch of barrel penetrating vermin into a shop will it be recognized as the new industrial sabotage crime since those items are otherwise tracked for thefts kind of? If a cleaning ability is modded on to a vermin will it activate it, either on the ground or not? What about, say, raising the dead?



I hadn't thought of it until now but vermin are kind of overpowered in adventure mode even before this release if they're actually tracked. But I guess that's why turkeys and chickens are always around. They're very helpful always scratching in the mud. Saving lives. But if someone slipped the monastery cats some beer and they all passed out the Most Holy Sky is going to be getting replaced pretty regularly. Then Sherlock Holmes will show up and notice that the snake literally has your name on it, foiling your perfect plot.



3. Will you be able to milk a purring maggot? I guess there's more work involved in making it so you can actually get purring maggots in the first place, since they don't work right now. But if you got them, the milk is right there. Not to mention the other animals you can presumably milk.



3a. Will we be able to milk our cows? Not as important as the purring maggot, because anybody could run off with that cow, but you're going to be protecting that maggot right on your person most of the time.



4. Since adventurers are getting some medical stuff, would starting with a pet cave spider instead of, say, a sword give them one-up on bandaging themselves? I'm going to need that if I'm scratched to hell from fighting while dizzy after catching all these cave spiders



5. To expand on an old question: since we already have the carpenter's workshop in adventure mode anyway could we start making cages and caging up animals we already own? Could we dedicate an area as a zoo in our sinister bandit fort, since all these nice adventurers will be dropping by to stop us now?



Quote

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller I assume the villain network map in the devblog is a new one we can export from Legends, right?



How extensive is the Legends data for villaneous goings on? Is it all accessible from Legends Mode and exportable to XML? Will we be able to check which corrupt officials brought about the downfall of our fortress in between games, or is some of the Hidden Fun permanently Hidden?



Also, come Fortress mode implementation, will firing of position holders for corrupt behaviour be simply left up to the player to implement, or will authority figures amongst the dorfs decide for us? Can nobles like barons be stripped of their rank by the mountain home in a similar way (in worldgen and within a player fortress)?



Finally, in the devblog you mentioned that:

"Earthhells tried to get her mother the militia commander to join up, but she was having none of it and never trusted her wayward daughter again."

Is that an actual thing (grudges/bad relationship forming due to failed corruption bids) or just a story embellishment?

Quote from: bleux I found it interesting how Aban tried to convince many of her familly members to crime, maybe because her familly mostly got on board, or maybe because Aban received no backlash at all from her familly. Thus, I would like to ask:



Can talking people into crime go wrong in the sense of screwing up relationships? So a friend or familly member may not be talked into crime after a bad conversation, as their relation has turned stall due to it.



Quote from: Shonai_Dweller

Do the guildmasters have generated position titles too? If so, are they based on the type of guild?



Quote from: Death Dragon

From the latest devlog:

"Lomoth, fond of scheming and idly wishing to become wealthy and powerful ..."

"Aban was an extravagant sort, and given to flights of fancy, so ..."

"... Earthhells was able to play on her father's bond of love as well as his greed."

Will these bits of explanation be listed in the information in legends mode or did you only get them through your debugging tools?



Quote from: Hapchazzard

1. Will sufficiently successful schemers and network-builders sometimes try and weasel their way into positions of official power? For example, the blacksmith in the latest story trying to become the 'royal goldsmith' or something like that, and having direct access to more powerful people, as well as opening doors to further advancement.



2. Assuming that villains will try and hoard artifacts (if their beliefs are appropriate), how will they store them if they don't have some kind of 'lair' (castle, for example)? Again, let's take the blacksmith as an example - if she stole some artifact sword through her network, would she just plop it down in her small house and forget about it?



3. Is any kind of simple economic stratification planned for the villain release? Nothing impressive, as I realize that the bulk of the more complex work is reserved for the law arc, but at least having affluent people have more impressive abodes, clothing, etc. It would somewhat tie into the villain system - i.e. impoverished folks being more susceptible to paltry bribes, villains working their way up into a more ostentatious lifestyle, nobles having nice homes in cities, castles/fortresses being various levels of extravagant based on the prestige and wealth of their holder, etc.



4.There were mentions of there being a setting for the 'bleakness' of the world. I can see how such a setting would affect the magic of the world, but will it also significantly affect the non-magical components of the world as well, such as civilizations being harsher and more xenophobic, people in charge tending to be more ruthless and amoral, natural savagery being higher on average, etc.?



Quote from: Beag

1. Will religious art commissioned for temples just be art depicting the past actions of a deity or any scene involving them?

2. If our bone carving adventurers create figurines depicting a deity would followers of that deity recognize the art in question as religious?

3. Would pieces of art depicting a deity be more valuable trading wise in a holy city dedicated to that deity?

4. With prophets being able to convert large portions of civilizations will religions themselves gain their own sets of values like civilizations have? This could make for some good religious civil wars.



Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan

Does the (currently largely aesthetic AFAIK) value system play any role in how likely an NPC is to become a villain? For instance, I'd think a character whose values tend towards extremes might be more likely to engage in villainous behaviour.



Quote from: Kaltag

Will there ever be such things as a rebellion? Say the citizens of a civ are upset about the way the ruler/high ranking official acts, could the civilians forcibly replace him/her? If so could adveturers join them?



Quote from: Death Dragon

I wanna sneak in another question because I saw an interesting documentary about the cistercian monk order some days ago:

The cistercians were (and still kinda are, I guess) a monk order in medieval Europe who started out as very strict, chastely, self-contained monks, but as they expanded more and more, they started producing a surplus of resources, which they then exported and sold for profit, instead of just being self-sufficient. They eventually turned into a profit-oriented megacorporation that spread "franchise" monasteries to almost all of Europe and made so much money that they could fund the Knights Templar, leading to the Second Crusade. (Most of their wealth originates from the fact that they exploited cheap labor, but that's a whole other topic.)



With the current way monastic orders and corporations are implemented, would it be possible for a monastic order to develop itself into something similar to a corporation, or are they two separate types of entities that make use of different types of tools and actions? Mainly, what I'm asking is, could a monastic order become a profitable producer of goods and expand to other locations similar to a corporation?



In the last devlogs I only saw you mention monasteries needing funding by other factions to expand, so I'm not sure if you at all planned for this to be possible. There's something to be said about keeping them as separate, distinct entities. It would be less realistic, but probably more game-like. But I guess it would make sense if for example a monk order who worship the god of wealth would somehow also be a wealth-accruing business.

I know this mostly doesn't matter until we actually have the economy update, but there was a bunch of work done on these kinda entities in the villain update.



Quote from: GoblinCookie

With the new embezzlement system, what happens if I have a civilization that does not have any money to embezzle? Do they steal imaginary money or does the system switch to embezzling other valuable goods or does no embezzlement happen without actual money?



Quote from: therahedwig

In terms of corruption, are the histfigs already capable of mechanisms like nepotism/cronyism/simony where someone gets into a position due being family/buddies/benefactor of a power holding histfig instead of the usual route? Or does that require a bit more rules about how positions are obtained in the first place?



Random_Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900930#msg7900930 JesterHell696 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900947#msg7900947 Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900991#msg7900991 Ah, I don't recall having changed this, but it's certainly a much higher candidate now with the other chargen bits going in this time. Will make a note. Seems like you should even be able to pick organized religion membership (or not) now that that works a little differently than before.FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900950#msg7900950 Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7900991#msg7900991 Killermartian: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7901774#msg7901774 Yes. We some additional group/state-level mechanics to make it really feel that way in a dynamic and responsive way, but the temples and highest priests can be there and there's some passive back-and-forth in the infrastructure and conversion counts and some interpersonal stuff.1. FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7902564#msg7902564 Hopefully they will exercise better tradecraft, but yeah, the idea is for there to be some evidence, enough to work with. This is neither 100% planned nor entirely clear. But we can make an effort, as usual.2/3/4.PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7902569#msg7902569 Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7902604#msg7902604 Yeah, though it's all in the wg -> post wg -> adv pipeline, so I haven't settled all questions. Monasteries aren't necessarily on major roads; they are simply placed like other sites as it stands, near to their benefactor's site currently. The little structures should be almost everywhere, though as for what a shrine *is*, well, fortunately that's part of post wg or even adv, so I haven't had to decide yet, heh.We just have the monasteries and shrines as truly "new" stuff, and they house monks and serve as well-like sites of take-a-stroll worship, respectively. At least I hope to get the adv mode walkers out there doing their bit.therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7903546#msg7903546 FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7903574#msg7903574 Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7903647#msg7903647 As well as I ever do, though I've tried to be more dedicated to the wg -> post wg -> adv -> fort order of implementation within a single release recently (as in like a year or two? I don't recall when that started to become the pattern.) In this particular case, that means that when we get around to adventurers investigating and also being villains, they'll be allowed to use all of the new post wg "army controller" types for companion orders, and also we'd like the fortress to be able to use these as well. If there are odd cases that don't work out, I'll try to note them. Generally, this means your forts and adventurers will have the opportunity to be both craftier and fouler than previously, at your discretion.Syncretism in particular is blocked by the structural issues that are going to be handled in the post-Big-Wait laws/customs/property/subgroups/etc. push. The data structures right now cannot handle partial linkages and inheritance(-ish) mechanics, which is exactly what syncretism requires to keep the memory footprint under control. We'll be able to do language drift and hybrid law codes and all sorts of neat stuff as we tackle the structural rewrites. Right now, even the village/bandit/etc. entities gobble up unwarranted amounts of real estate since they can't build themselves from existing data (beyond certain special cases.)The prophets currently spring up whether they have an existing organized religion or not, so they can both be an evolution of whatever religion they had (though it isn't treated that way), or a new set of beliefs that might directly contradict the beliefs of otherwise-unrelated religions that worship the same deity. None of this is currently detected or utilized, but it is also sitting right there with a note for this release, so we shall see if anything transpires. The various pushes in this release have created a lot of straightforward additions that still somehow run into framework problems down the line, so I have to be careful while also plucking as many of them as I safely can. As you can see for the last months of dev logs, there has been quite a bit of plucking, but there's also restraint; this form of restraint is just invisible when it happens.This seems like a prudent suggestion, yeah. I don't have a specific plan for handling it yet.1. They are subject to item rules (sadly for them), but they are also stored as a vermin event if they are freely roaming. I'm not sure how that interacts with save/load; badly I expect. I suspect vermin-sized pet owners should keep them nearby or in a safe spot. You can drop them and pick them up from the ground, and it maintains their pet status, but offloading them is trickier, if they aren't in a container. It would be nice if they could run around the home when you are away, but that'll have to be a specific fix.2. A pet on the ground... maybe gets to do the sting/bite code? I don't recall the vermin event querying the pet status. Fort players might have observed this (or not, as the case may be.) If so, ha, yeah, it will be a perfect crime currently. I don't think they can use any interactions... they are soulless, as I recollect, which is another sad comment on the current DF cosmology, especially coming from a former rat keeper who certainly recognizes that vermin-sized critters can have different personalities etc., and considering that future additions will surely require souls to be in birds etc., if only so magic users can fly off in them or whatever ends up going on.3. I haven't added any farming jobs to adv mode yet, though we have a whole arc for that sitting around someplace. We've only very slowly added the elements of a peaceful living sim game to the adv mode side of things, and remain shamefully behind.4. This seems to be the case, though you might need to wait a long time to get the thread (I really have no idea how the timers carry over, assuming you have to watch your spider locally and can't leave.)5. Getting closer! I haven't added new designations or reactions, but with pets going, things slowly begin to make more sense until they happen.Yes, my goal is to only include pictures that are exportable (since the process of producing them might as well be kept around), and that's been true of the logs for this release so far, though I'm not happy with them, as usual.Hmm, I think it's all historical. Any scheme formed between two or more people is an event. There might be some initial decisions that are only logged in the internal intrigue structure, which, even if it's XML exportable (to-do when w.g. villains are done), only has the latest state. You'll certainly be able to find the fort mode corruption moments, with date stamps to amplify your shame; I imagine my challenge will be to stop the often-psychic engravers from carving them everywhere before the plot is uncovered.The player is the official will of the fort, so the current plan is to let you handle intra-fort firings, as an expedition leader/mayoral act. Capricious actions or actions from the mountain home are out of your control. We'll be flexible if it's not fun, though. In this case, it's hard to say whether more or less power will be the better road, perhaps even a mixture depending on the act. We haven't added w.g. hammerings for treason yet, when we'll need to decide what that "punishment exempt" tag really means. Can the monarch override that for villainous acts of a certain level? It's not defined as it stands, though clearly you want to be able to do something (official, not just a magma accident.)Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7906624#msg7906624 Yes, relationships have additional variables now (trust, love, fear, loyalty, etc., different from reputation but sometimes uncomfortably similar - WIP as usual), and that includes various negative mixtures beyond "grudge". I tried to embellish the story as little as possible, though I didn't want it to read entirely like a series of legends entries, of course. In this case, the villain's mother still loved her daughter, but the trust was gone. It's a nascent system, but we can now get different interpersonal behaviors from these mixtures. I'm looking forward to where it's going, anyway. Loyalty, trust, love and fear all sound like good story material, he he he, and we've only had really binary versions of them to this point.They can have I think up to four positions, with different responsibilities, with some variation in number and name, but it's not super interesting. I only did a cursory search for historical examples at this point, and they were mostly boring, variations on dean and alderperson and treasurer and that kind of thing. In the push forward, I've been resistant to link them up to the languages (as that stuff really needs to change), so it remains more or less like the random bandit titles (i.e. lackluster.) But that only makes the potential future brighter by comparison, he he he.Personalities are still unreadable, just since I've been interface-lazy as usual, though there's a question as to how far legends should go sometimes. Certainly there's a different point to be made about displaying the reasons for specific actions, and I have plans to log more of those before the release. In general, the newer historical events are capable of logging reason/circumstance pairs, and I've been patchy about always including them, but that sort of exposition is kind of the point of the whole exercise so I'll continue to work on it. I'm also working on a new expandable historical event structure so we can optionally dump much more data into a given event without blowing out the memory for the generic event case (where we sometimes have a million sitting around, so every bit is important) or having to store it in a history "collection" like a battle (which possesses too much overarching structure, though it would be a somewhat feasible solution); I haven't selected a first example yet but this is very likely for this release as well, as some of the events aren't displaying enough data now with so many tangential actors possibly involved.1. This does not currently happen at this exact moment. However, it's on the very top of the list for the coming finalization of w.g. villains.2. If they don't have some kind of lair, yeah, post w.g. they'll just be in the ridiculous "artifact holder" position which is already a problem. Lairs, or at least part-time hideouts, will probably be popular for this reason among others.3. PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907166#msg7907166 The only bit I have to add to this is that certain nobles are more inaccessible currently to w.g. villains by virtue of their position. This is something, and not entirely insignificant, but PatrikLundell is correct on the larger point, and also I'm not sure how even my one example is going to survive contact with adv mode without adding entire guard/admission behaviors and etc. etc. It might be one of those things that doesn't make the post e.g. -> adv jump, which we are trying to avoid but which are sometimes inevitable (due to stuff like needing entire guard/admission behaviors.)4. Yeah, in the working formulation we've been talking about with the three or so sliders, that's how it would be. As with advanced parameters currently though, I suspect very strongly that any "magic" or "tone" or "randomness" sliders will be reserved for quick "now!" world gen, and in actuality, these will not just be multiple subsliders but whole schemes of how raws are loaded and tweaked etc., in the way we've been discussing in some previous posts. The value randomizer currently used for humans and goblins can easily be linked to whatever tone/bleakness setter(s) we have, and something like that seems necessary to obtain the right feel on the highest settings. My working examples for max bleakness have always been universally terrible, anyway; the more settings you flip to extremes, the less varied the output will be (aside from the randomness setter, naturally), but sometimes you want a mood, one way or the other. Though of course, other juxtapositions can also be fun and should be supported to some extent if you go for advanced params. I am hopeful, anyway. It's a complicated step for the project, but that's what the Big Wait is for.1. In the fort? Like context-sensitive stuff? The DF engravers are notoriously self-centered, but it's been a reasonable suggestion for it to work differently and better.2/3. I haven't changed this, and as I recall it doesn't matter at all. There are certain value checks vs. image, but I think it's mostly at the civ level, and mostly pretty old code.4. Yes, the religion always inherits the values of the prophet, and the values of the prophet almost always have one to three significant deviations from their birth civilization's value set (and they might be founding a religion away from home, depending on what all has happened.) I haven't yet created much tension using this fact, but it's there to be used and should also begin to matter organically now that there are more religious actors in the world.Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907814#msg7907814 therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907834#msg7907834 FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907836#msg7907836 PlumpHelmetMan (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907865#msg7907865 On the one hand, values play a key role and are in fact the source of a majority of the villains as it stands, I think. People that value cunning and power in some measure, mainly, as basic intrinsic villains. On the other, I haven't explored more nuanced villainy that might arise when someone is in opposition to the larger cultural values, because that would have to express itself in a more value-specific way than our current villains. That would be cool, of course, it's just a bit more than we can easily support with the current levers we have to pull for most values.PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907944#msg7907944 Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907946#msg7907946 PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7907991#msg7907991 Yeah, to add to these observations, I think the main issue is that you can't easily support an insurrection with an eye on replacing the government with a specific person or persons who is not you. If there's an occupation, you can kill the occupying soldiers, and that should lead to a rebellion and the removal of the occupation force (if that's working.) You can also take over a site yourself. But there needs to be a tighter system with more actors in play. Incidentally, this is quite involved with the current material, which is perhaps why the question came up. We'll see soon if villains in w.g. add this to their toolbag (too many options to get to everything!) and if so, it'll push forward to adv/etc. most likely.therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908017#msg7908017 Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908709#msg7908709 Yeah, therahedwig's point on motivation is the important one. Here, the monks don't engage actively in account building activities, and they aren't generally position holders (if I recollect, being a monk and a position holder in some other entity are mutually exclusive, but I might be wrong.) Now, if we tracked the regular economic activity and impact and resources of subgroups, we could do more here. The merchant companies and guilds are special examples which have small placeholder mechanics to build entity accounts on top of member accounts. Not sure quite what else we'll get as I finish up the villains.Everything is imaginary here, as there's just not enough data (whether that's regarding currency or goods or services/acts), so it defaults now to changing an "account" number, which can be leveraged for a few things. Whether that represents currency or favor or power of some kind isn't yet well-defined; it's more freely exchangeable than anything would be in real life right now, a too-permanent too-fungible representation of what was gained by abusing the power of the position (which, depending on the listed responsibilities, is assumed to have power over something valuable, on some axis of value.) Simulation disasters will ensue as more structure is added, but that's all for later. But yeah, if a modded civ has no CURRENCY set, it'll still have corruption issues provided it has corruptible positions.FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908046#msg7908046 Yeah, there'll be a bit more, but yeah, we're also just making up loose placeholder rules at this point, so it's important not to overstep.