michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: More than 26,000 fires have been recorded inside the Amazon rainforest in August alone, triggering global calls for action. So why is Brazil’s government telling the rest of the world to mind its own business? It’s Wednesday, August 28.

ernesto londoño

Through the prism of Twitter or Facebook, I think a lot of people last week, understandably, engaged in this communal panic about the fate of the world’s largest rainforest.

michael barbaro

Ernesto Londoño covers Brazil for The Times.

archived recording Urgent pleas to save the rainforest as the Amazon burns.

[music]

archived recording 1 Forest fires are raging in the rainforest. There have been nearly 73,000 fires this year already, a more than 80 percent increase compared to last year. archived recording 2 [CHANTING] archived recording 3 With international protests — archived recording 4 Action for the Amazon! archived recording 5 — the world is demanding action. archived recording 6 The French president, Emmanuel Macron, has described the fires as an international emergency.

ernesto londoño

You were seeing presidents, you were seeing celebrities.

archived recording And actor Leonardo DiCaprio working to help combat the wildfires in the Amazon rainforest. The climate change —

ernesto londoño

You were seeing these really alarming posts and these photographs of patches of the rainforest on fire.

archived recording The smoke is traveling far and wide.

ernesto londoño

And I think many people, understandably, were left with the impression that, within a few days, the Amazon was going to be reduced to a pile of ashes.

archived recording The Amazon rainforest, the so-called lungs of the world, are now filling with smoke. The forest —

ernesto londoño

I think, in many people’s minds, there was a clear villain in all of this —

archived recording Directly blaming the record fires in the Amazon on Brazilian President Jair —

ernesto londoño

— the president of Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro, who has shifted his government’s approach on the environment in a really dramatic way.

archived recording And scientists warn this could be a devastating blow to the fight against climate change. There have been more —

ernesto londoño

And this is certainly a story about climate change. And it’s a story about President Bolsonaro. But it’s a far more complicated story than we’ve been hearing.

michael barbaro

So where should we start this story?

ernesto londoño

I mean, I think it’s important to think about the history of the Amazon.

archived recording The great Amazon River of South America is so deep and so wide that the people of Brazil call it the “river sea.”

ernesto londoño

I think for decades, the Amazon captured people’s imagination in a way that few places on Earth did.

archived recording The tropical rainforest biome is a complex community exceedingly rich in many forms of plant and animal life, a showplace of natural history.

ernesto londoño

It was this mysterious and dangerous place that drew adventurers and scientists and botanists.

archived recording Through ceaseless evolution, a display of flora and fauna has developed here unequaled anywhere else on land.

ernesto londoño

And you know, for many, many years, it was these images of this raw wildlife and the mystique that laid under the canopy that people were fascinated by.

archived recording Moist, always-green forests still cover one-tenth of the Earth’s land surface and comprise a large part of the total forest area of the world.

ernesto londoño

It contains the largest supply of freshwater in the world, and it’s just teeming with biodiversity. But in the 1970s, the Brazilian government, which was then led by military rulers, decided it was time to settle this vast rainforest.

archived recording The conquest of Western Brazil began in 1970 with the construction of the Trans-Amazonian Highway.

ernesto londoño

And it created a road that cut through the Amazon and started encouraging people to move there and to start making a living there.

archived recording The dense bush gave way to large buildings, where mining equipment is kept, and to silos, which today hold a harvest of mineral plenty.

ernesto londoño

Their view was that the Amazon contained tons of resources — minerals, land that could be converted into farmland — and that it was time to turn it into an economic engine for Brazil.

archived recording The dream of gold — a heady prospect, which has set men’s hearts on fire since ancient times. In modern-day Brazil, they’ve torn the earth asunder for it.

ernesto londoño

When it starts happening initially, people realize that things are changing. But there was no real alarm until a few years later, when things get really out of control.

archived recording All that glitters may indeed be gold and beautiful once it’s cleaned. But any short-term profits come not without a price to be paid.

ernesto londoño

Where trees start getting chopped down at a really staggering rate —

archived recording And that price is turning out to be high for humans and animals alike.

ernesto londoño

— and people start realizing that the world’s largest rainforest is being destroyed, is atrophying at an astonishing speed.

archived recording These are some Indian friends of mine in the Amazon. Their lives today are in great danger. Their beautiful home in the rainforest is being destroyed by logging, mining and ranching.

ernesto londoño

This sparks worldwide consternation. And people start asking whether the Amazon might cease to exist one day if it continues to be destroyed at this rate.

archived recording And this is the rainforest in 30 years if present trends continue. It’s all gone. The lungs of the earth destroyed.

ernesto londoño

You know, you had politicians, you had artists, you had songs about this.

archived recording (SINGING) All that beauty is the rainforest, the tropical rainforest.

ernesto londoño

It really became a cultural moment.

archived recording (RAPPING) Where the balance of nature’s like a delicate lace. We should have some compassion and show some concern, ‘cause the forest depends on what we learn.

ernesto londoño

People became very invested in this idea that everybody had a role to play in saving the Amazon.

archived recording (RAPPING) That means horrors — bulldozers and axes clearing the forest. So many species we’ll never understand, ‘cause we’re taking their homes by destroying their land.

michael barbaro

Right. This is the “Save the Rainforest” campaign.

ernesto londoño

Yeah.

michael barbaro

And does this movement have an effect in Brazil?

ernesto londoño

It does. But I think it’s important to note that it is greeted with very deep skepticism and, to an extent, paranoia, in some circles. I think there’s long been a view among conservative nationalist Brazilians that all this outcry about the fate of the rainforest was really a veiled attempt to keep Brazil from developing its God-given potential. I think many Brazilians saw these calls to preserve the Amazon as infringing its sovereignty. And for many years, they were pretty dismissive about this. And they said that the fate of the Amazon was only for Brazil and its neighbors to think about, debate about, and decide on.

michael barbaro

Hmm. So what happens to this development of the Amazon?

ernesto londoño

During the 1990s and the early 2000s, we see deforestation reaching really staggering levels. Concern around the world, I think, reaches a point where the Brazilians can no longer ignore what people outside of the country were saying about this. So when President Lula, a leftist, is in office in the early 2000s, he appoints a woman who was from the rainforest to serve as his minister of the environment. Her name is Marina Silva. And she came up with a really bold and ambitious plan to rein in deforestation and create more conservation areas. She was somebody who was lauded across the world for doing something that people thought was almost impossible, to stop these loggers and these miners and these farmers from reaching deeper and deeper into the Amazon year after year after year. And for a while, Brazil was pretty successful.

michael barbaro

So all of this outcry leads Brazil to begin regulating and slowing this development.

ernesto londoño

That’s right. Another thing the government did was it started issuing some pretty stiff fines for deforestation and other environmental crimes. And for a while, this had the intended effect. And one of the reasons Brazil was successful in reining in deforestation during this era is the economy was doing pretty well. So there were plenty of jobs in the city. And people were less tempted to venture deep into the jungle, where they faced the risk of fines. However, the good days came to an end. And in 2014, the country plunged into a brutal recession. And what this meant was tens of thousands of men were suddenly unemployed. And many of them were lured back into the jungle. Why? Because there was money to be made. These were dangerous jobs. These were risky ventures. But for many people, it was the only way to put food on the table.

[music]

michael barbaro

And so the deforestation started all over again?

ernesto londoño

Deforestation starts climbing again.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Ernesto, so, a recession hits and deforestation is back on the rise. What does this mean for Brazilians?

ernesto londoño

So around this time, many people who were being fined for violating environmental laws were refusing to pay and sensed that they could get away with it. And among them was a then-congressman, Jair Bolsonaro, who was allegedly busted fishing in a wildlife reserve. He refused to identify himself when the agents saw him. But the agent recognized him, took his picture, documented that he was in a wildlife reserve, and issued him a citation. Bolsonaro never bothered to pay his fine. And then, last year, when he’s running for president and when he becomes a front-runner, Mr. Bolsonaro said that the fines that were issued by this agency amounted to a racket. He called it an industry that needed to be shut down.

michael barbaro

So Bolsonaro, when he campaigns for president, does so by kind of flagrantly disregarding the environmental protections of the Amazon, and, it seems like, by tapping into this longstanding nationalist view that the Amazon is a Brazilian resource that Brazilians should be tapping into, and any effort to stop that is a globalist intervention, and it will hurt Brazil.

ernesto londoño

That’s right, Michael. But he wasn’t only angry about environmental fines. He was also very frustrated with indigenous territories. These are territories that now cover about 13 percent of Brazil’s land mass. And Mr. Bolsonaro spoke in unusually hostile terms about indigenous people. He essentially said, you have these small indigenous communities sitting on land that could be extremely profitable. And they should be allowed to bring in outsiders to set up mining camps, to develop farmland, to start producing wealth.

michael barbaro

And so his solution, it sounds like, is to develop more and more of the Amazon.

ernesto londoño

Absolutely. And when he wins, he wastes no time on delivering on his campaign promises on this front. One of his first steps in office was to give the ministry of agriculture control over the process of adjudicating any new indigenous territories. It was essentially giving the people who had an interest in developing these territories and changing their nature entirely the keys to the kingdom. You know? Environmentalists and indigenous activists were appalled. And they braced for a bruising fight.

michael barbaro

So what happens when Bolsonaro starts making these changes across the government and allowing for more development of the Amazon?

ernesto londoño

Well, even before any new laws or regulations came to fruition, I think people out in the countryside felt emboldened. And we started hearing anecdotes of miners and of loggers striding into indigenous territories and other protected areas in a way that was more visible and bolder than they had before. What we also see is a sharp rise in deforestation. During the first six months of the Bolsonaro era, deforestation increased by roughly 40 percent. And historically, the rate of deforestation has been closely linked to the prevalence of forest fires.

michael barbaro

Right. So this is what we’re seeing in all these photos online. The Amazon is on fire. And it’s rampant deforestation under Bolsonaro that has caused it.

ernesto londoño

That’s right. And there were, literally, thousands of fires burning across the Amazon. But I think what many people didn’t quite understand was that this happens every year. Around this time, when it tends to be cooler and drier across the Amazon, there’s a slash-and-burn cycle that happens, where farmers and people who have logged patches of the Amazon clear the bush and set it on fire. And most of these fires tend to be relatively small and relatively contained. But something was different this year. The number was unusually high. So far this month, there’s been more than 26,000 fires detected through satellite imagery. That’s more than twice the number of fires registered last year. But this was, by no means, an all-time high. You know, we’ve seen other periods in years past when there were far more fires burning across the Amazon. I think what was different this year is you had all these alarming and widely shared posts on social media, some of which were using pictures that were many, many years old that weren’t really an accurate reflection of what was happening on the ground this year.

michael barbaro

So what do you make of that, this response, which has been so enormous, and the history and reality of this situation in Brazil?

ernesto londoño

Clearly, it has put a spotlight on a problem that is very real and very serious. The Amazon is shrinking at a rate that many scientists call unsustainable. They fear that it’s approaching a so-called tipping point, where large sections turn into savanna and where it might be impossible to turn it back into lush, thick rainforest. However, I think the way this story got off the ground may have been counterproductive for the international community to engage the Brazilian government and its very impulsive leader in a constructive debate.

archived recording The European leaders threatened to scrap a major trade deal with —

ernesto londoño

Brazil, last week, faced the prospect that a trade deal that Brazil and a few neighboring countries reached with the European Union could be nixed.

archived recording I think there’s going to be an international reaction to boycott Brazilian food just to protest —

ernesto londoño

There were calls to boycott Brazilian products.

archived recording French President Emmanuel Macron is now calling the fires an international crisis that should be on the agenda at the G7 summit this weekend in France.

ernesto londoño

And the G7 leaders, who were about to have their conference in France, said that this was going to be a last-minute high-profile item added to the agenda. Brazil, I think understandably, said, wait a minute. How are you going to discuss the fate of the Amazon when we’re not at the table? This makes no sense.

archived recording G7 leaders agreeing to a $20 million financial aid package to help Brazil fight the fires in the Amazon.

ernesto londoño

And even as pledges of emergency aid started being dangled by European leaders and by organizations that wanted to take some immediate and urgent action on these fires, the Brazilian government wasn’t ready to say, sure, we’ll take the help.

michael barbaro

So all this outrage, all these online photos, all these alarmed messages, and this sense from Europe that this is a crisis that it can help solve, how is that looking and feeling to people inside Brazil?

ernesto londoño

I think many Brazilians are deeply concerned about the fate of the Amazon. And they very much want their country to do more to rein in deforestation and to pay attention to the messages that we’re hearing from across the world. However, this is a very bitterly polarized society. And on the flip side of that, I think many people resent the idea that European powers would bark down orders to a former colony and tell it how it needs to administer its affairs. And that’s certainly the approach the president has taken. He recently said that if the Europeans had many million dollars to spend on conservation efforts, that they should plant some trees in their own countries.

michael barbaro

So in Bolsonaro’s mind, this is a Brazilian issue, and the rest of the world should, essentially, mind its own business.

ernesto londoño

Absolutely. He says the Amazon is ours, and we’re not going to entertain criticism or prescriptions from countries that, many years ago, razed down their own forests and grew their economies in doing so. So that’s been his position, and it’s hard to see him backing down.

michael barbaro

It’s interesting, Ernesto. As we’re talking about this, I’m realizing that as horrifying as the development of the rainforest might feel to people watching from the outside, and as scary as these fires are, it does seem unusual for other countries to tell a country what it can and can’t do with its resources. If the U.S., theoretically, wants to blow up the Grand Canyon or log entire national parks, those might be insane ideas. But no one can stop the United States from doing that. If we want to frack in West Virginia, it’s up to us. It’s our land.

ernesto londoño

Absolutely. Many Brazilians say, hey, this is our territory. This is our land. Don’t mess with our sovereignty. But on the other hand, the Amazon is a unique and special and irreplaceable place. And if we contemplate the possibility that some 50 years from now it will disappear or become a fraction of itself, the consequences are very significant.

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ernesto londoño

The Amazon is a repository of carbon. So if it vanishes, there will be lots of carbon that will be released back into the atmosphere, which will warm the planet. And if, as the rainforest diminishes, more of its land becomes cattle-grazing pastures, that also would contribute to warming, because cattle grazing is one of the top emitters of greenhouse gas.

michael barbaro

And so the rest of the world does have a stake in this fight.

ernesto londoño

Absolutely. I think right now, the Brazilian government is in no mood to open the door for this debate and to have a global discussion about the fate of the Amazon. But it’s facing the real possibility of a boycott of its products, which people have been warning about on social media, and of a core trade deal that may now be on thin ice. And if we see this debate going on for months, Brazil might be forced to come to the negotiating table and have this moment of reckoning with others across the world.

michael barbaro

Ernesto, thank you very much.

ernesto londoño

My pleasure, Michael.

michael barbaro

On Tuesday, after initially rejecting $22 million in aid from the countries of the G7 to fight the fires in the Amazon, Brazil’s government said it might accept the aid under certain conditions. President Bolsonaro said he would take the money if France’s president, Emmanuel Macron, apologized for remarks about Brazil and its environmental record that Bolsonaro said he found offensive. We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording Repeat a little bit of what you said in court — archived recording (teala davies) All I’m going to say is today is a day of power and strength.

michael barbaro

During an emotional hearing in Manhattan on Wednesday, more than a dozen victims of Jeffrey Epstein’s alleged sexual abuse told their stories to a federal judge and assailed a criminal justice system that they said had failed them.

archived recording (chauntae davies) It makes me sick to my stomach that there’s perpetrators out there that obviously helped him in many ways for a very long time, and they’re still out there with no punishment.

michael barbaro

The hearing was held to officially dismiss the charges against Epstein following his suicide, which leaves prosecutors with no defendant to try. But it gave his accusers a rare chance to speak out. Several of the women in the courtroom addressed their remarks to the prosecutors, urging them to keep investigating Epstein’s employees and associates, who they said acted as his accomplices.

archived recording (virginia giuffre) I was recruited at a very young age from Mar-a-Lago and entrapped in a world that I didn’t understand. And I’ve been fighting that very world to this day. And I won’t stop fighting. I will never be silenced until these people are brought to justice.

michael barbaro