andy mills Test 1, 2, 3. Tell me about your experience going around the country right now. shane goldmacher Yeah so I’ve been basically traveling around the country. And everybody I talk to, you ask them who they support for president, they give you some kind of an answer. And then what they really are asking, though, and what they really seem to want to know is, well, who can win? Like, who’s the best candidate to win? They don’t want to just know who they like. They want to know who some magical person they don’t know in a swing state likes. andy mills This is the, this is the electability conversation. shane goldmacher This is the electability conversation. Everybody seems to want more than anything to beat Donald Trump. And a lot of people, they care about what they care about, but they also seem to care what other people who they don’t know who live thousands or 100 miles away care about. andy mills Right. It’s like, if you like Bernie Sanders, it’s like, is he too old? If you like Elizabeth Warren, it’s like, well, can a woman win after what happened with Hillary Clinton? If you like Pete Buttigieg, you’re like, well he’s gay. Or Medicare for all, it’s like, well, is that going too far? Or is that going to bring out a bunch of young people? Everyone’s just kind of like gaming who can win, essentially. shane goldmacher Yes, absolutely. It’s issues, and it’s identity, and it’s all wrapped up in a giant set of insecurities that the entire Democratic Party has that they’re going to lose again, and they don’t know why, and they somehow want to answer that question in advance. andy mills Can you just — who are you? Can you just introduce yourself and then, yeah, we’ll get into where we’re going. shane goldmacher I’m Shane Goldmacher. I’m a political reporter for The New York Times, and we are just crossing over a river driving to Braddock, Pennsylvania.

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[music]

Today, the electability question that’s consuming the Democratic Party is difficult to report on, because it often feels so abstract. But if electability is a question of who can gather the votes needed to beat Donald Trump in the general election, then there are three Rust Belt swing states that are critical to winning this year: Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. And in Pennsylvania, there is one issue that could be decisive: fracking natural gas. So opposition to fracking could be fatal for a candidate there. And yet —

archived recording Today, Senator Elizabeth Warren said in a tweet that she would ban fracking everywhere in an executive order. archived recording (bernie sanders) We need to put an end to fracking all over this country.

michael barbaro

Two leading Democratic candidates have said that if elected, they will ban fracking everywhere. My colleagues Shane Goldmacher, Andy Mills and Monika Evstatieva traveled to Western Pennsylvania to see if electability is as simple as who supports fracking in Pennsylvania. It’s Friday, January 24.

shane goldmacher We’re in Braddock, Pennsylvania, driving to the home of the lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania, John Fetterman, who I think in a lot of ways embodies this question that Democrats are struggling with — over who to support and who can win.

[music]

shane goldmacher We’ve arrived.

shane goldmacher

So we arrive at John Fetterman’s house.

shane goldmacher Yeah, we have a lot of power lines and smoke steam, and a steel plant with high voltage signs —

shane goldmacher

It’s across the street from a steel mill.

shane goldmacher — no trespassing, security patrol.

shane goldmacher

It’s exactly what you would imagine a Western Pennsylvania landscape to look like.

monika estatieva Let’s go meet him.

shane goldmacher

And John Fetterman comes out to say hello.

shane goldmacher How are you? john fetterman Good. How are you? shane goldmacher I’m doing excellent.

shane goldmacher

Fetterman doesn’t look like your typical politician —

john fetterman We own the building —

shane goldmacher

— 6 foot 8. He’s a bald guy, goatee, tattoos on his arms.

shane goldmacher This all your place?

shane goldmacher

We shake hands. We go into his apartment —

andy mills This is so cool.

shane goldmacher

— second floor of an old industrial type building. Christmas decorations up because it’s December.

shane goldmacher Well, tell us where you want us to sit down.

shane goldmacher

And he escorts us to a couple of couches in the middle of the room, and we begin talking.

john fetterman My name’s John Fetterman. I’m the lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania. And we are sitting in my home, which sits directly across the street from the Edgar Thompson Steel Mill here in Braddock, Pennsylvania.

shane goldmacher

His story is interesting. He may not look like a typical politician, but he has some of the typical politician pedigree. He went to Harvard for public policy school.

john fetterman I came to Braddock out of graduate school, because I wanted to take an opportunity to confront, in my own way, the raging inequality that I had witnessed and seen in this country.

shane goldmacher

And what he finds when he moves to Braddock in 2001, is this suffering and struggling post-industrial Western Pennsylvania town that 100 years ago had 20,000 people and now has a little over 2,000 people.

john fetterman — abandonment, 90% of the population was gone. Yeah, huge disparity in what you see here versus what you would see 15 minutes away and around Pittsburgh.

shane goldmacher

And four years after moving there, he ran for mayor.

john fetterman I won the primary and took office, and — shane goldmacher I thought you skipped a part of how close your election was. john fetterman Well if you already — I, quite frankly, I mean — shane goldmacher People know this stuff. john fetterman — yeah, this is well-worn.

shane goldmacher

He wins by one vote. And as mayor, he sort of really began to embody this little town. He had the zip code tattooed on one of his forearms. And on his other forearm, he would tattoo the date of every homicide that happened under his watch as mayor. And he became sort of seen as a symbol of Braddock, this sort of rough Western Pennsylvania town.

john fetterman The things that brought me to Braddock are the things that informed me on what I’ve wanted to accomplish statewide.

shane goldmacher

Eventually, he has higher ambition for statewide office. He runs for Senate in 2016 and badly loses the Democratic primary. He runs for lieutenant governor in 2018. And this time he wins, running from the left.

shane goldmacher When you line up your viewpoints, you fall on pretty far on the progressive spectrum, right? john fetterman I don’t know. I fall on what I think is the fair spectrum on issues. shane goldmacher Well Bernie Sanders endorsed you last year, came out and campaigned for you, right? john fetterman In 2018 he did. Not in 2016. And so —

shane goldmacher

So John Fetterman may not like labels, but —

john fetterman I’ve been unapologetically forceful in my views on criminal justice inequality, living wage, women’s reproductive freedoms, marijuana legalization, immigration. My wife was an undocumented Dreamer. I performed the first same-sex wedding in Pennsylvania, when it was still illegal in Pennsylvania, in this very building.

shane goldmacher

— he aligns closely with the left of the Democratic Party with one big notable exception —

john fetterman Men and women need to eat and put a roof over their head, and I am willing to die on the union way of life hill.

shane goldmacher

— fracking. In Western Pennsylvania, the union way of life, especially in the last decade, is so dependent on fracking, the extraction of natural gas from deep in the ground.

john fetterman There needs to be the most stringent, rigorous environmental controls and oversights, and plans to continually transition towards cleaner energy sources. But it’s still a necessary part of our economy.

shane goldmacher

And so while John Fetterman would not describe himself — and he would probably resist the label — of being a pro-energy, pro-industry Democrat, he wants to fight for those jobs. And that puts him at odds with the left of the Democratic Party.

john fetterman You know, vote your job, lobby your hobby, you know? And it’s — shane goldmacher Explain that. What do you mean by vote your job, lobby your hobby? john fetterman Vote your job. It’s like, O.K., what if you are particularly keen on gun rights or any of these other issues, you can lobby and be about that. But at the end of the day, don’t you want to take a vacation and be paid for it? Don’t you want to have enough money to send your kids to school? If you destroy unions, I don’t have a job, or I don’t have a job that can keep a roof over my head or pay my bills.

shane goldmacher

And here’s where Fetterman is concerned about what he’s seeing in the presidential contest, especially from the progressive candidates he’s otherwise so closely aligned with.

shane goldmacher Where are you when you look at this 2020 field? You haven’t endorsed yet, right? john fetterman No, I haven’t. And I’m at right now, is that I am alarmed that there could be a false sense of complacency within our party.

shane goldmacher

He’s touching on one of the real concerns that Democrats have. That the economy is doing better, and Donald Trump can get re-elected because of it. And at the same time, you have some Democrats talking about ending entire industries — like fracking — that is a key source of good, high paying jobs in his corner of his state, which happens to be one of the most important states in the country.

archived recording (hillary clinton) I’m the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean, renewable energy as the key into coal country.

shane goldmacher

You talk to John Fetterman, and he’s haunted by the 2016 election and, in particular, a stray remark by Hillary Clinton.

john fetterman One of the things that damaged her specifically was this quote — archived recording (hillary clinton) We’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business. Right, Tim? john fetterman — to the effect that she can’t wait to put coal miners out of business, and coal miners is a profession that is easily transferable to steel or other industry jobs.

shane goldmacher

She lost Pennsylvania by 44,000 votes, and he doesn’t want that to happen again.

shane goldmacher Is there a parallel with fracking now? john fetterman Well, I worry that there could be a parallel. As I’ve said, on the record, that Pennsylvania is a margin play, and an outright ban on fracking isn’t a margin play. That’s provocative.

shane goldmacher

He sees Pennsylvania as so close that almost anything can make the difference. And in fact, President Trump has already made clear that he wants to campaign in Pennsylvania on fracking.

archived recording (donald trump) [APPLAUSE] Well thank you to Vice President Pence. Thank you, Mike. And hello, Pennsylvania. Hello. [APPLAUSE] john fetterman Last evening, the president had a rally in Hershey. archived recording (donald trump) Hershey chocolate — I like Hershey chocolate. john fetterman And of all the places that Mr. Trump could have picked on all days, when the articles of impeachment were rolled out, he went to Pennsylvania. archived recording (donald trump) And in the state of Pennsylvania, natural gas production is up 34% since our election, 34 — john fetterman Last night demonstrated that we underestimate him at our party’s peril in 2020. archived recording (donald trump) Virtually every leading Democrat has pledged to entirely eliminate American production of oil, clean coal, natural gas. john fetterman They obviously believe, as I have said, that whoever wins Pennsylvania wins the presidency. archived recording (donald trump) Thousands and thousands of jobs, incredible —

shane goldmacher

Now of course John Fetterman isn’t the only Pennsylvania Democrat worried about this. The mayor of Pittsburgh, local officials in fracking counties — including one county that just flipped to Republican control for the first time in decades — they’re worried about this. And when it comes to presidential candidates, Joe Biden is taking Pennsylvania very seriously. In fact, he’s made it the center of his argument for why he’s the most electable Democrat running for president. He held his first campaign rally in Pittsburgh. He held his campaign kickoff in Philadelphia. He claims heritage in Scranton. And unlike some of his rivals, Joe Biden isn’t calling for a complete ban on fracking. In fact, he said that there’s no way that that’s going to get done.

archived recording (aaron) I’m Aaron. archived recording (joe biden) Aaron. archived recording (aaron) What I’m wondering is —

shane goldmacher

And when an activist came and confronted him about this in December —

archived recording (aaron) — I’ve looked at your climate plan. Why doesn’t it ban fracking? archived recording (joe biden) Why doesn’t it ban fracking? Because you can’t ban fracking right now. You’ve got to transition away from it. Look, you’re going to ban fracking all across America right now, right? archived recording (aaron) I would love to. archived recording (joe biden) Yeah, I’d love to too. I’d love to make sure we don’t, can’t use any oil or gas, period. Now. Now. Is it possible? archived recording (aaron) Yes.

shane goldmacher

He told them —

archived recording (joe biden) Well, you ought to vote for somebody else.

shane goldmacher

— that they shouldn’t vote for him. He takes it that seriously.

john fetterman Joe Biden definitely has a distinct advantage in winning Pennsylvania, simply because of his roots and where he’s at and perceived, and being completely neutral. Joe Biden would be all but impossible for Trump to beat in Pennsylvania, and Trump knows that.

shane goldmacher

So here’s that thing again. He’s talking about who he thinks is most electable and not who he necessarily likes best.

shane goldmacher Do you think Bernie Sanders can beat Donald Trump in Pennsylvania? john fetterman I think any one of the candidates, the mainstream candidates, can beat Donald Trump in Pennsylvania. But it’s going to be difficult for any of the candidates, if that makes sense. shane goldmacher Yeah, but it may be less difficult for Joe Biden, in your opinion? john fetterman I would say, being completely honest, he would have an easier time than other candidates. But I push back that every one of our candidates could do it. And so —

shane goldmacher

This is why it’s like a conundrum, right? Democrats across the country are trying to decide whether they vote for the candidate who they most like and most line up with, or the candidate who can beat Donald Trump. Or who they think can beat Donald Trump. Or who they think can beat Donald Trump in a swing state. And nobody actually knows the answer to that question.

[music]

shane goldmacher — talked about going to Clairton. Are there people you want to go meet there? john fetterman Yeah, if you want to go to Clairton. I can —

shane goldmacher

As we wrap up, Fetterman makes pretty clear he thinks that we should be talking to other people too — union members, union leaders, activists in Pennsylvania — to get a sense of how fracking and the leading Democratic candidates are playing.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. [CHATTER]

shane goldmacher

So a group of union leaders have agreed to meet us at an Italian restaurant in Pittsburgh.

shane goldmacher I want to introduce myself to each of you guys too. Shane Goldmacher.

shane goldmacher

We’re showing up just as lunch has already wrapped. And we sit down and introduce ourselves.

kenny broadbent Hi, Kenny Broadbent, I’m with the Steamfitters Union. jim kunz Jim Kunz, Operating Engineers. rege claus Hi, Rege Claus, Mechanical Contractors. jeff nobers Jeff Nobers, I’m the executive director of the Builders Guild. tom melcher I’m Tom Melcher. I’m the head of the Building Trades. shane goldmacher Shane Goldmacher. thomas melcher Nice to meet you.

shane goldmacher

Each of the union leaders have members that at least have some tie to the oil and gas industry in Western Pennsylvania.

jim kunz We’re the guys that run all the heavy equipment — the cranes, the bulldozers — kenny broadbent Steamfitters do heating, air conditioning, refrigeration, and process pipe work — jim kunz — so a lot of pipeline work, a lot of work in the natural gas industry. kenny broadbent — so when it comes to natural gas, we get to work on the cryogenic plants. My international does the pipelines.

shane goldmacher

Collectively, these unions represent around 60,000 people.

shane goldmacher How big a share of your membership is Democratic? kenny broadbent My guess would be 90% of our members are registered Democrat.

shane goldmacher

Potentially the margin for the 2020 election in Pennsylvania.

jim kunz We don’t see all the evils that they talk about in fracking.

shane goldmacher

And the first thing they want to do is tell us about just how important fracking has been in this part of the state for their members.

jim kunz I can tell you, in 2010, my local was at about 10% unemployment. Natural gas started to come here in about 2010. Within a year to a year and a half, we went from 10% unemployment to actually overemployment. I had to look for people. We went to full employment, and we’ve been at or near full employment, and occasionally overemployed, since.

shane goldmacher

There’s a few things they wanted to focus on —

kenny broadbent Because when people got jobs and are making middle class ways of life —

shane goldmacher

— jobs.

kenny broadbent — the economy’s better. There’s less crime. There’s less alcohol and less drug use. jeff nobers At the end of the day, if I don’t have a job —

shane goldmacher

Jobs.

jeff nobers — if I don’t have health care, if I can’t take care of my family, it doesn’t matter if we have global peace and gun control and everything else. jim kunz You know, how do I go to my members and say, O.K., kill the industry you’re working in —

shane goldmacher

Jobs and jobs.

jim kunz — the green jobs that they’re talking about, that they’re going to replace your job with, don’t exist. And the few that do exist paying $10, $15 an hour with no fringe package. While my members, $50 to $60 an hour, total package, good wages. kenny broadbent Jobs are the most important thing.

shane goldmacher

So one of the big criticisms of fracking is that locally, it creates environmental problems, and globally, it’s another generation of fossil fuel use at a time when scientists say we need to stop using fossil fuels.

kenny broadbent And why should we send these petrochemical plants, for instance, over to China where they won’t worry about the pollution?

shane goldmacher

And they’re arguing not that fracking is perfect, but that it’s the best option. That taking natural gas from Pennsylvania is better than taking oil or some other fossil fuel from some other part of the Middle East.

kenny broadbent At least here we’re going to do it with the most modern technology and with the least amount of pollution possible. And we’re still going to keep people that have jobs here.

shane goldmacher

And when it comes to politics in Pennsylvania, these guys — union leaders — carry weight. They advise their tens of thousands of members on what the important public policy issues are out there and how they might want to vote.

jim kunz You know, if we end up with a Democratic candidate that supports a fracking ban, I am going to tell my members that they either don’t vote or vote for the other guy. And I am not a fan of the president. I will be the first to tell you that. I did not vote for the president. I did not ask my members to vote for the president. We supported Clinton in the last election. But at this point, given the nature of work, I may have to do something that I’m not totally happy with. lisa You would support Trump over a candidate? kenny broadbent I don’t know that I would have a choice. I would at least be neutral.

shane goldmacher

This is a big deal, in a state decided by so few votes. And for a person who doesn’t just represent his own vote, but is going to be advising many other people on how they should vote too.

shane goldmacher We wanted — just before you guys all get up, we want to just ask one other question just for the audio thing.

shane goldmacher

And so, I ask them directly.

shane goldmacher If Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren is the nominee, how many of you guys are going to vote for Donald Trump? rege claus I would. kenny broadbent I wouldn’t vote. jim kunz I don’t know if I would vote for him, but I won’t vote. I mean, I would have to think long and hard. It would be tough — kenny broadbent Tough for me to pull Trump’s lever. jim kunz — and it would be for other reasons. If I was voting strictly on my membership, I would vote for Trump, but I wouldn’t be doing that for me. rege claus I’d vote for Trump. tom melcher I couldn’t. I can’t. I just can’t do it. jim kunz My hand would be — shane goldmacher Shaking. jim kunz It would be tough. kenny broadbent How do you vote for somebody like that? jeff nobers They’re all the same. jim kunz You can quote me on this. Bernie Sanders is the Donald Trump of the left. That’s personally what I think. He says a lot of ridiculous stuff and promises all kinds of stuff he has no idea how he’s going to deliver. Sort of sounds like the president on the escalator. That’s Bernie Sanders, so you know. rege claus The only way I’d go is Biden. The only way I’d go is Biden. And I’m a Democrat. kenny broadbent Well I’ll tell you who makes a lot of sense is the guy from, the mayor from South Bend — jim kunz Pete Buttigieg. kenny broadbent But I don’t think he can get elected. But at least what he looks in the camera, he’s got the Clinton-Obama look that you want to believe in what he’s saying, and he’s articulate. You know, it scares me — I love Joe Biden, but lately he’s not as articulate. speaker Right. kenny broadbent What’s Trump going to do to him. What’s going to happen when we start getting —

[music]

shane goldmacher

But obviously, these union leaders are just one side of a political equation. And on the other side, you have Democrats who are passionate about climate change, who think fracking is terrible for Pennsylvania and for the planet.

monika estatieva [CHATTER] Shane, do you want to describe the room? shane goldmacher Yeah, we’re on the second floor of the library.

shane goldmacher

And as it happens, we found out that while we were in town, there’s a meeting of local environmentalists at the public library. And so we show up.

shane goldmacher There are bamboo plates, cups and utensils to be taken, but not to be taken or to toss. Food served — a mix of all plant-based food — we’ve got hummus and tabbouleh. In the corner is a tabling for vegan spirituality. We’ve got a couple of different environmental groups looking for sign-ups, and a lot of people who seem to already know each other. We also are currently smelling, I think, some marijuana in the second floor of this library.

shane goldmacher

This might have turned out to be sage. The official name of the event is the Reimagine the Turtle Creek Watershed and Airshed Visioning Session.

speaker As active participants in our interconnected ecosystem, we each have the power to help heal this planet we call home. [APPLAUSE]

shane goldmacher

A lot of them call themselves “fractivists.”

elisa My name is Elisa. shane goldmacher Elisa.

shane goldmacher

The thing they’re most focused on is fracking —

elisa Fracking is rape, because the chemicals that are carcinogens — the benzene the toluene and everything else that’s proprietary —

shane goldmacher

— ending and stopping fracking in their part of Pennsylvania.

elisa — they’re injecting into our freshwater of our three rivers that we’ve been cleaning up here for the past 30 years. They’re taking our resources against our will. jillian graber My name is Jillian Graber. andy mills Are you planning on voting? jillian graber I am. I always vote. andy mills If you don’t mind my asking, what party do you usually vote for? jillian graber Well, it varies. I don’t really consider myself to be part of one party. For a while I was actually — I was a registered Republican. And then when Bernie Sanders was running last, I wanted to be able to vote for him, knowing what he stands for with the environment. So I switched over, so I could vote in the primary election for him. andy mills You became a Democrat for the first time — jillian graber I did, yeah. speaker — for Bernie? jillian graber Yeah. But I don’t know if I identify with the Democratic Party wholeheartedly, mainly because we have a Democratic governor, and he is very pro-industry. andy mills O.K., so when it comes to the 2020 contest, who is it that you are favoring? Are you still a supporter of Bernie Sanders? jillian graber I still am a supporter of Bernie Sanders. I know that Elizabeth Warren also stands for very similar things, and I would consider potentially voting for her. I do not believe under any circumstances that somebody like Joe Biden, who a lot of people feel like maybe the front-runner, would be somebody that would be good for our nation.

shane goldmacher

For the environmentalists at this library, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are visionaries who are going to fix the biggest challenges facing our planet.

ellie gordon My name is Ellie Gordon. I heard that you were talking about the political candidates and how they feel about fracking, and so I have a lot to say on it. I just want to give feedback. shane goldmacher Tell us, yeah. What is your thoughts? Are you going to be just as excited to support Pete Buttigieg or Joe Biden if they’re the nominee? ellie gordon No, and I will not volunteer for their campaign. I will not openly support a candidate who does not take a strong environmental stance in banning fracking. shane goldmacher How do you think that will play outside the city, if a Bernie Sanders or an Elizabeth Warren is the nominee, for the people who work in the industry or work around the industry? How do you, you know, do you worry about all those people suddenly coming out in droves? ellie gordon I’m not worried about that, because the people who work in the industry and work around it, it’s not that many. So they have a loud voice because they have a lot of money, but there aren’t that many people. There’s the ability for there to be way more jobs in renewable energy, and so I don’t think that’s going to be an issue. I strongly feel like Bernie or Elizabeth Warren could easily win.

shane goldmacher

And so the argument for the left, for the Sanders and the Warren candidacies, and for others, is that we’re going to turn out young people and people who care passionately about the environment in vast numbers by being bold and showing them where we want to go. And the idea that you’re going to win back a big enough share of people from these energy friendly Democrats who are working in industry, that that’s not the play — that that’s actually, in fact, not the margin play. The margin play is to mobilize a greater number of younger people who aren’t actually already voting.

shane goldmacher And you think there’s just going to be more young people or more people motivated by climate politics not in fracking country? ellie gordon Absolutely.

shane goldmacher

This is an entirely untested proposition. When is the last time the Democratic Party nominated somebody who was talking about building a movement that was outside of the traditional bounds of the mainstream of the party? Elizabeth Warren’s talking about big structural change. Bernie Sanders is talking about a revolution. You can’t project what that exactly looks like based on the past because it hasn’t happened. Can you make that a winning argument? We just don’t know.

shane goldmacher And so you see someone like a Joe Biden who wants to not ban fracking as —

shane goldmacher

But the interesting thing in talking to these folks at the library — and this was really striking compared to the union leaders — was that at the end of the day, if they don’t get their preferred nominee —

monika estatieva Well, would you vote for him? ellie gordon I would — if he was the only option, I would vote for him, and I would feel gross about it. But the lesser of two evils. shane goldmacher Great, thank you. ellie gordon You’re welcome. shane goldmacher So let’s say the nominee is somebody like Joe Biden, somebody like Pete Buttigieg. speaker I mean, we’re at a really weird juxtaposition. You know, there’s a lot of — I’m sort of between a rock and a hard place on where do I spend my vote. Because on the one hand, Biden says, if you want me to ban fracking, then you better vote for somebody else. And to me, that’s a slap in the face and a slap across the faces of every scientist in the world who is screaming about the urgency of addressing climate change at top speed. So I’m a climate voter, and I will cast my vote for the best prospect for climate that I can manage. And if that becomes a race between Biden and Trump, I feel Biden is better for climate than Trump by a long shot, better for a lot of things.

shane goldmacher

When it comes to electability, and when it comes to the issue of fracking in the state of Pennsylvania, this is what we saw. One group of voters, union leaders, said that if they didn’t get their preferred nominee, they might not vote for the Democrat, and they might even vote for Donald Trump. And another group of voters, environmentalists, who said that if they didn’t get their nominee, they’d still vote for the Democrat.

speaker 1 But yeah, nationally, yeah, I’ll vote for a Democrat, but that’s not the issue. The issue is — speaker 2 I would vote for a centrist, but I really don’t like that framing, because I think it’s a little bit defeatist. speaker 3 I would vote for anybody that was running against Trump. I would even vote for Mike Pence running against Trump. I think Trump is evil and dangerous, and we need to replace him with almost anybody who’s breathing.

[music]

michael barbaro