netherDrake Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Singapore 1828 Posts Last Edited: 2010-10-27 16:02:30 #1



Gonna upload a replay where I go for a 4 gate push which didn't work. Feel free to criticise my play and maybe someone could suggest how I could improve my game?



http://screplays.com/replays/netherdrake/12421 Ever since the patch came out, my already bad PvZ is now complete shit. I've gone like 2-15 against zergs this week, so my rating has sort of stagnated at ~1500 and my division ranking has dropped from 2 to 8. I don't really know why I don't do well against zerg, it seems like some psychological thing. I've resorted to cannon rushes and 4 gate pushes pretty much every game after the first few losses this week and it hasn't really been successful.Gonna upload a replay where I go for a 4 gate push which didn't work. Feel free to criticise my play and maybe someone could suggest how I could improve my game? SC2 player for Flash eSports. twitch.tv/nether_drake, https://twitter.com/bryan_sum, http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bryan-Drake-Sum/468389706519567

dj.ricecakes Profile Joined July 2010 United States 252 Posts #2 you dont have to actually attack with the army you have you can just force him to make units other then drones then back off that way you still have an army and he had to make lings or raoches for defense.

cant watch the replay right now will when i get home TECH MOTHER FUCKERS TECH!

pwnasaurus Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 190 Posts #3 Dude - 4 gating is generally a pretty bad strat. It's one base, and if you all in attack into spines where the zerg has 2 base, you will lose, badly, every time. Force spines, pull back, and expand behind your army, which will also give you map control. Or, you know, don't just 4 gate every game, maybe learn how to actually play toss.

OfficerTJHooker Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 95 Posts #4 I think 4gate is fine in platinum, but because it's used so often against FEing Zerg mid-high diamond level players begin to find ways to counter it. Forcing spines is only so effective, but I like the idea of making him produce units just to be able to hold your army. After doing that, you can safely expand knowing that your army is still enough to handle his.



Try other builds without the cheese, such as 15 nexus or Collosi drops if you know he's going mutaling. Scoot and turn, scoot and turn...

Titilisk Profile Joined March 2010 96 Posts #5 I still don't get this many QQ about PvZ. According to the patch notes, the only thing that has changed is



Corruptor

-Energy bar removed.

-Corruption is now cooldown-based on a 45-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown expired (must wait for full 45-second cycle before usable).

Infestor

-Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.

Roach

-Range increased from 3 to 4.



Void Ray

-Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).

-Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).

-Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.



I'm Z @ 1500, and I'm getting a lot of "OMG can't win since patch", even if I didn't even abuse any of these patch changes...



1) the biggest up is the roach range which (in PvZ) ONLY provides a timing window to break a fe+canons with an all-in attack, and P will have to get used to scout it and defend accordingly (as any all-in timing window). Not really different from an Hydra burst in BW imo. Stop crying about it. It is fine as it is.



2) the blink slight nerf with fungal growth is just an abuse of stalkers in late late game where mass stalkers will still own ultras, which was the only decent counter.



3) the void ray / corruptor change would not have affected you too much anyway.



So I still don't get why protoss are feeling soooooo underpowered now. The PvZ match up is for the most part unchanged.

Chaosvuistje Profile Joined April 2010 Netherlands 2579 Posts #6 On October 28 2010 01:21 OfficerTJHooker wrote:

I think 4gate is fine in platinum, but because it's used so often against FEing Zerg mid-high diamond level players begin to find ways to counter it. Forcing spines is only so effective, but I like the idea of making him produce units just to be able to hold your army. After doing that, you can safely expand knowing that your army is still enough to handle his.



Try other builds without the cheese, such as 15 nexus or Collosi drops if you know he's going mutaling.



15 nexus against zerg? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

If anything thats more of a cheese than 4 gate. And collosi drops vs muta-ling? erm, no.



~1450 Diamond zerg. This is the stuff I'm having trouble with.



-Fast phoenix expand builds. The ability to snipe overlords to supply block me while you can mass gateway units is an enormous advantage.

-3 gate expand builds. The good thing is that with good sentry controll you can disable me from killing your nexus. And with good simcity you can funnel the zerglings in a tight choke.



Don't treat expand builds as agressive ones. If you get your natural up vs zerg, YOU have the advantage. Don't blow that away by doing some small stalker/zealot/sentry push. The thing with muta-ling builds is that they are designed versus agressive protoss builds.



Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings can surround a zealot/sentry ball in the open and kill it costeffectively, while muta's can stream in to force stalkers, which in turn die to zerglings.



Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings won't do anything to a protoss who has build chokes in his natural with simcity. Muta's cant harrass with the protoss army in their base. Mutas and zerglings aren't meat units. They will win if they can swarm your expensive protoss army.

But if you stick it together and forcefield your army in, litterally no amount of zerglings can kill it costeffectively. Each of those zerglings required half a larvae. That larvae did not become a drone. Zerg needs to keep up in economy to be even with protoss. 1+1 = 2. If you're on 2 base and zerg is still on 2 base, you will win almost garrenteed.



Two units you definitely need in PvZ, sentries and collossi. Sentries can make deadly chokes and block ramps off, while collosi with +2 attack will roast an infinite number of hydra's and zerglings.

Note that to keep up if the zerg is still in the game is to slowly transition into high templar. Zerglings die to storm so rediculously hard that each time it happens to me I laugh myself towards inevitable defeat.



This is all the tips I can give you right now. GL 15 nexus against zerg? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?If anything thats more of a cheese than 4 gate. And collosi drops vs muta-ling? erm, no.~1450 Diamond zerg. This is the stuff I'm having trouble with.-Fast phoenix expand builds. The ability to snipe overlords to supply block me while you can mass gateway units is an enormous advantage.-3 gate expand builds. The good thing is that with good sentry controll you can disable me from killing your nexus. And with good simcity you can funnel the zerglings in a tight choke.Don't treat expand builds as agressive ones. If you get your natural up vs zerg, YOU have the advantage. Don't blow that away by doing some small stalker/zealot/sentry push. The thing with muta-ling builds is that they are designed versus agressive protoss builds.Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings can surround a zealot/sentry ball in the open and kill it costeffectively, while muta's can stream in to force stalkers, which in turn die to zerglings.Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings won't do anything to a protoss who has build chokes in his natural with simcity. Muta's cant harrass with the protoss army in their base. Mutas and zerglings aren't meat units. They will win if they can swarm your expensive protoss army.But if you stick it together and forcefield your army in, litterally no amount of zerglings can kill it costeffectively. Each of those zerglings required half a larvae. That larvae did not become a drone. Zerg needs to keep up in economy to be even with protoss. 1+1 = 2. If you're on 2 base and zerg is still on 2 base, you will win almost garrenteed.Two units you definitely need in PvZ, sentries and collossi. Sentries can make deadly chokes and block ramps off, while collosi with +2 attack will roast an infinite number of hydra's and zerglings.Note that to keep up if the zerg is still in the game is to slowly transition into high templar. Zerglings die to storm so rediculously hard that each time it happens to me I laugh myself towards inevitable defeat.This is all the tips I can give you right now. GL

justsomeguy Profile Joined October 2010 9 Posts #7 I play toss as well and have always had a hard time with zerg. Mutas have always owned me.



So now I just pump pheonix early and try to snipe overlords/queens/gas mining drones (sometimes they don't notice hehe) Pheonix make it very difficult for zerg to go muta. Expand and transition into colossi for their hydra and there is not a lot they can do. The hardest part is protecting yourself on a smaller map from an early push. Gotta have good FF control for that.

Wayem Profile Joined May 2010 France 455 Posts #8 On October 28 2010 01:39 Chaosvuistje wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 28 2010 01:21 OfficerTJHooker wrote:

I think 4gate is fine in platinum, but because it's used so often against FEing Zerg mid-high diamond level players begin to find ways to counter it. Forcing spines is only so effective, but I like the idea of making him produce units just to be able to hold your army. After doing that, you can safely expand knowing that your army is still enough to handle his.



Try other builds without the cheese, such as 15 nexus or Collosi drops if you know he's going mutaling.



15 nexus against zerg? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

If anything thats more of a cheese than 4 gate. And collosi drops vs muta-ling? erm, no.



~1450 Diamond zerg. This is the stuff I'm having trouble with.



-Fast phoenix expand builds. The ability to snipe overlords to supply block me while you can mass gateway units is an enormous advantage.

-3 gate expand builds. The good thing is that with good sentry controll you can disable me from killing your nexus. And with good simcity you can funnel the zerglings in a tight choke.



Don't treat expand builds as agressive ones. If you get your natural up vs zerg, YOU have the advantage. Don't blow that away by doing some small stalker/zealot/sentry push. The thing with muta-ling builds is that they are designed versus agressive protoss builds.



Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings can surround a zealot/sentry ball in the open and kill it costeffectively, while muta's can stream in to force stalkers, which in turn die to zerglings.



Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings won't do anything to a protoss who has build chokes in his natural with simcity. Muta's cant harrass with the protoss army in their base. Mutas and zerglings aren't meat units. They will win if they can swarm your expensive protoss army.

But if you stick it together and forcefield your army in, litterally no amount of zerglings can kill it costeffectively. Each of those zerglings required half a larvae. That larvae did not become a drone. Zerg needs to keep up in economy to be even with protoss. 1+1 = 2. If you're on 2 base and zerg is still on 2 base, you will win almost garrenteed.



Two units you definitely need in PvZ, sentries and collossi. Sentries can make deadly chokes and block ramps off, while collosi with +2 attack will roast an infinite number of hydra's and zerglings.

Note that to keep up if the zerg is still in the game is to slowly transition into high templar. Zerglings die to storm so rediculously hard that each time it happens to me I laugh myself towards inevitable defeat.



This is all the tips I can give you right now. GL 15 nexus against zerg? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?If anything thats more of a cheese than 4 gate. And collosi drops vs muta-ling? erm, no.~1450 Diamond zerg. This is the stuff I'm having trouble with.-Fast phoenix expand builds. The ability to snipe overlords to supply block me while you can mass gateway units is an enormous advantage.-3 gate expand builds. The good thing is that with good sentry controll you can disable me from killing your nexus. And with good simcity you can funnel the zerglings in a tight choke.Don't treat expand builds as agressive ones. If you get your natural up vs zerg, YOU have the advantage. Don't blow that away by doing some small stalker/zealot/sentry push. The thing with muta-ling builds is that they are designed versus agressive protoss builds.Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings can surround a zealot/sentry ball in the open and kill it costeffectively, while muta's can stream in to force stalkers, which in turn die to zerglings.Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings won't do anything to a protoss who has build chokes in his natural with simcity. Muta's cant harrass with the protoss army in their base. Mutas and zerglings aren't meat units. They will win if they can swarm your expensive protoss army.But if you stick it together and forcefield your army in, litterally no amount of zerglings can kill it costeffectively. Each of those zerglings required half a larvae. That larvae did not become a drone. Zerg needs to keep up in economy to be even with protoss. 1+1 = 2. If you're on 2 base and zerg is still on 2 base, you will win almost garrenteed.Two units you definitely need in PvZ, sentries and collossi. Sentries can make deadly chokes and block ramps off, while collosi with +2 attack will roast an infinite number of hydra's and zerglings.Note that to keep up if the zerg is still in the game is to slowly transition into high templar. Zerglings die to storm so rediculously hard that each time it happens to me I laugh myself towards inevitable defeat.This is all the tips I can give you right now. GL



Interesting post, even if 15 nexus tends to be viable (cf Sangho in GSL).



Few questions for you :



I agree with all your speech about how good it is to not play too aggressive vs Z, like 3 gate expand. Now what should I do when the Z takes his third ? He has absolutely map control before the "right units" go out for the P.



Scouting a Z at the very beginning is hard... mass roaches ? hydras ? mutas ? Often if you don't scout anything you can encounter a build order autoloose (example: fast robo while he goes full mutas). Problem: what happens if I open 3gate expand stargate (phoenix to scout + prevent mutas) and I scout hydralisks/roaches ?



I can try to survive at my choke... immortals will come fast vs roaches, and stalkers will be good. But I'll still have big troubles with hydras. Even if I don't die, Z has absolute map control and can take b3, hell, even b4 sometimes while I am teching.



Thanks for your answers !

Interesting post, even if 15 nexus tends to be viable (cf Sangho in GSL).Few questions for you :I agree with all your speech about how good it is to not play too aggressive vs Z, like 3 gate expand. Now what should I do when the Z takes his third ? He has absolutely map control before the "right units" go out for the P.Scouting a Z at the very beginning is hard... mass roaches ? hydras ? mutas ? Often if you don't scout anything you can encounter a build order autoloose (example: fast robo while he goes full mutas). Problem: what happens if I open 3gate expand stargate (phoenix to scout + prevent mutas) and I scout hydralisks/roaches ?I can try to survive at my choke... immortals will come fast vs roaches, and stalkers will be good. But I'll still have big troubles with hydras. Even if I don't die, Z has absolute map control and can take b3, hell, even b4 sometimes while I am teching.Thanks for your answers ! "who needs micro when you can have more stuff ?" -day9

Chaosvuistje Profile Joined April 2010 Netherlands 2579 Posts #9 Yes, 15 nexus can be viable against GSL opponents. Because GSL opponents don't go for agressive openings as zerg. But in ladder this is quite a bit different. People tend to favour aggression over the hard macro builds ( see proto.... I mean 4gate pushes, 3 rax pushes ).



Scouting is hard against zerg yes. You generally want to get that robo out reasonably fast to check for his tech choice.



But here is the thing. As a protoss you want to steer the zerg into making stuff they don't want to make. You make phoenix and harrass the zerg, he will go 'hmm, he is prepared for mutalisks, I guess I have to go hydra!'. Whats good against hydra? That big ass godmode unit with cliffclimbing wtfbbq range , collossus. He wants to prepare for collosi with corruptors? Good roll him because he doesnt have much of a ground force.



When I play versus protoss I want to kill their first push. I want the push to happen, the sooner the better. Once I kill off the first push, I can decide to drone up. Make the counter-counter he is probably preparing ( surround with lots of zerglings, hmm I guess i have to get more zealots FFFROACHES! ).



If zerg is the bull, you are the matador. As long as you decide which path the zerg has to go, you'll be fine. If the zerg can suddenly make choices, hell hes going to stick you on its horns and throw you around. Making the right decisions in ZvP is harder than in other match ups. Because you can't turtle up and have a mexican standoff ( ZvZ roach hydra ) or have the units capable of swallowing entire armies at tier 1 ( ZvT baneling muta ).



You can be really subtle with it. For example, when his overlord is scouting your base, right before you kill them you build a particular tech structure ( Forge, Stargate, Robo ) and cancel it once the overlord has been deceased for a short time. And if he doesn't scout after that he will still think you would have gone voidrays, cannons or collosi.



Stuff like going 4 gate, pushing up to their natural and retreating to defend your expansion. Voila, you just made the zerg shit his pants and make tons of units THAT ARENT DRONES.



Half of the time I lose it is because I prepared for a push too much, be too passive because the push never comes. The ability for zerg to rebuild their armies super fast has a turnside too, he HAS to make those units to fend off any aggression but meanwhile he can't make drones.



Zerg has very subtle timings to handle where his push could be very strong at this moment, but decides to hang back a bit and get a few more forces and suddenly will get roflstomped because the protoss is adequately prepared for it. Like a roach bust , but when he pushes immortals are out. Completely slaughtering the roaches and making them have a crisis about why they weren't drones.



You have the defenders advantage, frickin' use it.

Satire Profile Joined July 2010 Canada 294 Posts #10 Zerg has always been my weakest match as Protoss. The problem I am having is that with the Roach range change, more Zerg's have been seeing it as a viable strategy. (Notice the careful wording there)



I am climbing the ladder currently and playing 1200-1500 rated diamond players. I have been losing the last few games against Zerg. I am a macro-based player and typically try to out-macro my opponents outright. I have been experimenting with strategies varying from 15 nexus to crappy 4 gate to FE Phoenix, and I really just can't find a strategy that is "solid". (ie: against Terran for example I am comfortable with a 1 gate chronoed FE and the follow ups there) I feel like I am rolling the dice against the Zerg player.



Here are the 3 main mid-game options of Zerg:



1. Mutalisk/Ling (fairly common)

2. Hydra-push

3. Roach/Ling



The biggest problem I find is that for the initial mid-game push I simply can't *know* the exact push that is coming if they are spreading creep and denying scouting information via lings.



Protoss really have 4 scouting options in this scenario, but I can't seem to find the proper timing window for any of them.



1. An early gateway push: is only an option if you do a 3 gate expand build, or do some sort of heavy gateway play. Unless you are able to push into the base directly however, you aren't getting TOO much information. Considering most Zerg's play an early 2 base build with a midgame push, this really isn't a reliable way of getting information in my opinion. If you do get scouting information, it's probably because your push succeeded, in which case you're in a good position already and the scouting really has no real effect. I suppose I could poke in and try to run out, but that tends to be difficult with large amounts of lings. Stalkers typically help in the other match-ups because of their speed, but their weakness against lings and their slowness vs lings make them not as viable of a poking unit.



2. Hallucination: is wise to use in a heavy warp gate build. This will pit you at a disadvantage against most mid-game pushes, although it saves you the money of investing in a tech building that you might not need to use. I personally don't like this option since you are going to need a Robo and/or Stargate at some point to deal with the Zerg mid and late game anyways. I still think Hallucination is underused however, but I'm not really sure how to incorporate it into my build in a non-gimmick sort of manner .



3. Observer: This requires a Robo-bay which is something you will need anyways for late game at least. The problem I am finding is that by the time it gets to their base the midgame push is coming. If they are going Muta-ling for example you will not be prepared enough to really not be at a disadvantage if they harass correctly.



4. Phoenix: is what most players are seeming to lean towards to try force the Zerg down a more Robo-play tech path. The problem with this is that realistically you need to fast expand for it to work, and you also give a Zerg with proper scouting the thumbs up to either bust into your base with a well timed Hydra push, or to double expand if he sees your fast expand. If you try to one base this, it's equivalent to an all-in to be quite honest. If the Phoenix's don't do damage, you are at a harsh disadvantage.



Don't get this wrong - I'm not complaining about Zerg's being imba or anything like that. I am simply wondering if players have found the "build" that is safe yet against Zerg since the patch. think the key will be to scout at a proper time and respond accordingly. I think Zerg must be facing a similar problem against Protoss, but they have slightly more options in regards to scouting with overlords and speed ling mobility.At that crucial mid-game push stage in the game it's really not plausible for a Zerg to pick more than one of those mid-game combinations above. At this point I feel like regardless of the opening I pick, I am merely playing Russian roulette and hoping that the Zerg responds to my build in a favorable way to me.



15 Nexus: Please don't double expand as a response or 1 base Roach

FE - Stargate: Please don't do a well timed Hydra push or Roach/Ling with Queens

4 Gate: ... Please be bad? 4 gate is terrible against most good Zergs.

Gate/Robo: Please don't go Muta/Ling

3 Gate Pressure into FE: Drone too hard please

FE into quick 6 gate: Please be unprepared.



I'm finding that mid-game push really dictates the rest of the game for me in PvZ. If I predict correctly I typically set the pace for the rest of the game, but otherwise I'm either losing outright or getting put at such a disadvantage that I can never catch up. Finally, I'm finding that in the event I try to early pressure to get the Zerg to waste his larva on defenses, that at my level the Zerg's are good enough to scout and know when to drone and when not to. I really feel the key here is getting that scouting information before the mid-game push comes, but I'm not sure how to go about it.



Any advice would be appreciated.



/endwalloftext

Satire is a lesson, parody is a game.

david0925 Profile Joined September 2010 212 Posts #11 Just to keep the same topics under one thread.



I personally don't have a lot of trouble with Zerg if I can live past the 7 minute mark. The 5-7 minute 7+ Roach Push seem to hit me the hardest. Do I just need to macro better for a bigger army? (i'm usually 42-46 Food at this point, most of which are probes of course), force field better, or just find a better strategy?



Usually if I live past that mark and get an Expansion up while harassing using Phoenix or just flat out counter Roach Spam using Immortals I do well, but that first 8 minutes against a non-expanding Zerg is just so hard for me.

Chaosvuistje Profile Joined April 2010 Netherlands 2579 Posts #12 That is for you protoss fellows to figure out : ). I can only say what I have trouble against and I never do a roach bust all in vs protoss. I tend to like macrogames more which more often than not gets back to haunt me.



I think having superior positions and good forcefields will give you the ability to fight it off. But I'll have someone else be the expert on that.



I've said what I know about this match up. Anymore discussion and I would probably start to ramble and give you false information. So best of luck to you all.

Wayem Profile Joined May 2010 France 455 Posts #13



@Satire: I love you. Exactly my feelings and a good summary of my current hard work in pvz ^^ Ok, thanks Chaosvuistje@Satire: I love you. Exactly my feelings and a good summary of my current hard work in pvz ^^ "who needs micro when you can have more stuff ?" -day9

Barca Profile Blog Joined October 2010 United States 418 Posts #14 On October 28 2010 01:35 Titilisk wrote:

I still don't get this many QQ about PvZ. According to the patch notes, the only thing that has changed is



Corruptor

-Energy bar removed.

-Corruption is now cooldown-based on a 45-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown expired (must wait for full 45-second cycle before usable).

Infestor

-Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.

Roach

-Range increased from 3 to 4.







As a proud Protoss player who has struggled against PvZ lately, I will try to help you understand.



The energy bar on the Corruptor being removed is HUGE. Also, the roach buff was HUGE. Notice how I am capitalizing and reiterating the same word.



Before, there was a good cycle of counters for PvZ: Roaches < Gateway units < Hydras < Collosus < Corruptors < Temps < Ultras < Immortals < MutaLing < Phoenix/Blink Stalker < Hydras/Infestors < Temps... etc



I could honestly go on and on about this cycle, but basically to know a matchup is balanced, there needs to be this cycle, hopefully infitinitely long. I didn't even bring up how crazy powerful MutaLing is against a macro Toss.



Roach range, first off, stops the FFE. Cannons are no longer safe as you cannot physically defend your wall from roaches. Also, this basically takes away the 4 Gate (although Zergs can easily defend this) since roaches can now hold their own against Stalkers. Before, Zealots/Stalker was decently equivalent to Ling/Roach when looking at their cost effectiveness. Not no more. So the first break in the cycle comes in the beginning. Roaches > Protoss early game ( Gateway units)



Also, now temps cannot counter corruptors. This is a huge change. What does Protoss have to counter corruptors? I'll get back to you when I know. Collosus is now too fragile to go against a macro Zerg. Cycle broken - Corruptors > temps



Protoss may learn to deal with these changes eventually, but looking at my own recent ladder play and the GSL, Zerg > Protoss ATM. As a proud Protoss player who has struggled against PvZ lately, I will try to help you understand.The energy bar on the Corruptor being removed is HUGE. Also, the roach buff was HUGE. Notice how I am capitalizing and reiterating the same word.Before, there was a good cycle of counters for PvZ: Roaches < Gateway units < Hydras < Collosus < Corruptors < Temps < Ultras < Immortals < MutaLing < Phoenix/Blink Stalker < Hydras/Infestors < Temps... etcI could honestly go on and on about this cycle, but basically to know a matchup is balanced, there needs to be this cycle, hopefully infitinitely long. I didn't even bring up how crazy powerful MutaLing is against a macro Toss.Roach range, first off, stops the FFE. Cannons are no longer safe as you cannot physically defend your wall from roaches. Also, this basically takes away the 4 Gate (although Zergs can easily defend this) since roaches can now hold their own against Stalkers. Before, Zealots/Stalker was decently equivalent to Ling/Roach when looking at their cost effectiveness. Not no more. So the first break in the cycle comes in the beginning. Roaches > Protoss early game ( Gateway units)Also, now temps cannot counter corruptors. This is a huge change. What does Protoss have to counter corruptors? I'll get back to you when I know. Collosus is now too fragile to go against a macro Zerg. Cycle broken - Corruptors > tempsProtoss may learn to deal with these changes eventually, but looking at my own recent ladder play and the GSL, Zerg > Protoss ATM. - I hate threads that end with "Thoughts?" -

bobcat Profile Joined May 2010 United States 488 Posts #15 On October 28 2010 02:09 Wayem wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 28 2010 01:39 Chaosvuistje wrote:

On October 28 2010 01:21 OfficerTJHooker wrote:

I think 4gate is fine in platinum, but because it's used so often against FEing Zerg mid-high diamond level players begin to find ways to counter it. Forcing spines is only so effective, but I like the idea of making him produce units just to be able to hold your army. After doing that, you can safely expand knowing that your army is still enough to handle his.



Try other builds without the cheese, such as 15 nexus or Collosi drops if you know he's going mutaling.



15 nexus against zerg? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

If anything thats more of a cheese than 4 gate. And collosi drops vs muta-ling? erm, no.



~1450 Diamond zerg. This is the stuff I'm having trouble with.



-Fast phoenix expand builds. The ability to snipe overlords to supply block me while you can mass gateway units is an enormous advantage.

-3 gate expand builds. The good thing is that with good sentry controll you can disable me from killing your nexus. And with good simcity you can funnel the zerglings in a tight choke.



Don't treat expand builds as agressive ones. If you get your natural up vs zerg, YOU have the advantage. Don't blow that away by doing some small stalker/zealot/sentry push. The thing with muta-ling builds is that they are designed versus agressive protoss builds.



Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings can surround a zealot/sentry ball in the open and kill it costeffectively, while muta's can stream in to force stalkers, which in turn die to zerglings.



Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings won't do anything to a protoss who has build chokes in his natural with simcity. Muta's cant harrass with the protoss army in their base. Mutas and zerglings aren't meat units. They will win if they can swarm your expensive protoss army.

But if you stick it together and forcefield your army in, litterally no amount of zerglings can kill it costeffectively. Each of those zerglings required half a larvae. That larvae did not become a drone. Zerg needs to keep up in economy to be even with protoss. 1+1 = 2. If you're on 2 base and zerg is still on 2 base, you will win almost garrenteed.



Two units you definitely need in PvZ, sentries and collossi. Sentries can make deadly chokes and block ramps off, while collosi with +2 attack will roast an infinite number of hydra's and zerglings.

Note that to keep up if the zerg is still in the game is to slowly transition into high templar. Zerglings die to storm so rediculously hard that each time it happens to me I laugh myself towards inevitable defeat.



This is all the tips I can give you right now. GL 15 nexus against zerg? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?If anything thats more of a cheese than 4 gate. And collosi drops vs muta-ling? erm, no.~1450 Diamond zerg. This is the stuff I'm having trouble with.-Fast phoenix expand builds. The ability to snipe overlords to supply block me while you can mass gateway units is an enormous advantage.-3 gate expand builds. The good thing is that with good sentry controll you can disable me from killing your nexus. And with good simcity you can funnel the zerglings in a tight choke.Don't treat expand builds as agressive ones. If you get your natural up vs zerg, YOU have the advantage. Don't blow that away by doing some small stalker/zealot/sentry push. The thing with muta-ling builds is that they are designed versus agressive protoss builds.Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings can surround a zealot/sentry ball in the open and kill it costeffectively, while muta's can stream in to force stalkers, which in turn die to zerglings.Tons of +1 melee attack zerglings won't do anything to a protoss who has build chokes in his natural with simcity. Muta's cant harrass with the protoss army in their base. Mutas and zerglings aren't meat units. They will win if they can swarm your expensive protoss army.But if you stick it together and forcefield your army in, litterally no amount of zerglings can kill it costeffectively. Each of those zerglings required half a larvae. That larvae did not become a drone. Zerg needs to keep up in economy to be even with protoss. 1+1 = 2. If you're on 2 base and zerg is still on 2 base, you will win almost garrenteed.Two units you definitely need in PvZ, sentries and collossi. Sentries can make deadly chokes and block ramps off, while collosi with +2 attack will roast an infinite number of hydra's and zerglings.Note that to keep up if the zerg is still in the game is to slowly transition into high templar. Zerglings die to storm so rediculously hard that each time it happens to me I laugh myself towards inevitable defeat.This is all the tips I can give you right now. GL



Interesting post, even if 15 nexus tends to be viable (cf Sangho in GSL).



Few questions for you :



I agree with all your speech about how good it is to not play too aggressive vs Z, like 3 gate expand. Now what should I do when the Z takes his third ? He has absolutely map control before the "right units" go out for the P.



Scouting a Z at the very beginning is hard... mass roaches ? hydras ? mutas ? Often if you don't scout anything you can encounter a build order autoloose (example: fast robo while he goes full mutas). Problem: what happens if I open 3gate expand stargate (phoenix to scout + prevent mutas) and I scout hydralisks/roaches ?



I can try to survive at my choke... immortals will come fast vs roaches, and stalkers will be good. But I'll still have big troubles with hydras. Even if I don't die, Z has absolute map control and can take b3, hell, even b4 sometimes while I am teching.



Thanks for your answers !

Interesting post, even if 15 nexus tends to be viable (cf Sangho in GSL).Few questions for you :I agree with all your speech about how good it is to not play too aggressive vs Z, like 3 gate expand. Now what should I do when the Z takes his third ? He has absolutely map control before the "right units" go out for the P.Scouting a Z at the very beginning is hard... mass roaches ? hydras ? mutas ? Often if you don't scout anything you can encounter a build order autoloose (example: fast robo while he goes full mutas). Problem: what happens if I open 3gate expand stargate (phoenix to scout + prevent mutas) and I scout hydralisks/roaches ?I can try to survive at my choke... immortals will come fast vs roaches, and stalkers will be good. But I'll still have big troubles with hydras. Even if I don't die, Z has absolute map control and can take b3, hell, even b4 sometimes while I am teching.Thanks for your answers !





Meh, yes going half way against zerg is bad. A build like 3 gate expand isn't really agressive enough. If you do a +1 timing push with 5 zealots 6 stalkers and 3 sentries you should be able to either

A. Kill his expo.

B. If he has crawlers you can stay back and force him to spend larva on units or you can FF his ramp to block units from coming down the ramp while you kill the crawlers. If his units are at the natural, you can pull them away from the crawlers and split them with FF's then overpower his crawlers and kill his base.

C. Use your units to contain him on 2 bases and make you second base.



If you read the guide on the forums for how to play against muta/ling, it explains the importance of keeping the zerg from droning. Meh, yes going half way against zerg is bad. A build like 3 gate expand isn't really agressive enough. If you do a +1 timing push with 5 zealots 6 stalkers and 3 sentries you should be able to eitherA. Kill his expo.B. If he has crawlers you can stay back and force him to spend larva on units or you can FF his ramp to block units from coming down the ramp while you kill the crawlers. If his units are at the natural, you can pull them away from the crawlers and split them with FF's then overpower his crawlers and kill his base.C. Use your units to contain him on 2 bases and make you second base.If you read the guide on the forums for how to play against muta/ling, it explains the importance of keeping the zerg from droning. "I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes

Shadrak Profile Joined August 2010 United States 490 Posts #16 On October 28 2010 04:19 Barca wrote:



Also, now temps cannot counter corruptors. This is a huge change. What does Protoss have to counter corruptors? I'll get back to you when I know. Collosus is now too fragile to go against a macro Zerg. Cycle broken - Corruptors > temps

.



The only counter I've found to corruptors is not making Collosi any more to be honest. I used to make collosi then move to HTs later. Early HTs could use feedback to keep the Collosi alive long enough to make the transition to storm. Without that, I am left simply rushing to HT and hoping I don't get pushed at the wrong time.



My strongest opening is still 1 gate stargate into expansion. That said, my win rate is probably ~30% versus Z since the update. The only counter I've found to corruptors is not making Collosi any more to be honest. I used to make collosi then move to HTs later. Early HTs could use feedback to keep the Collosi alive long enough to make the transition to storm. Without that, I am left simply rushing to HT and hoping I don't get pushed at the wrong time.My strongest opening is still 1 gate stargate into expansion. That said, my win rate is probably ~30% versus Z since the update.

bconSaberRider Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Germany 47 Posts #17

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149170



I know that it is before the patch and before Zergs started creeping all over the place - but I find it a great article. That link might help you.I know that it is before the patch and before Zergs started creeping all over the place - but I find it a great article. I miss Broodwar - - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367698

us.insurgency Profile Joined March 2010 United States 330 Posts #18 On October 28 2010 01:35 Titilisk wrote:

I still don't get this many QQ about PvZ. According to the patch notes, the only thing that has changed is



Corruptor

-Energy bar removed.

-Corruption is now cooldown-based on a 45-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown expired (must wait for full 45-second cycle before usable).

Infestor

-Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.

Roach

-Range increased from 3 to 4.



Void Ray

-Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).

-Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).

-Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.



I'm Z @ 1500, and I'm getting a lot of "OMG can't win since patch", even if I didn't even abuse any of these patch changes...



1) the biggest up is the roach range which (in PvZ) ONLY provides a timing window to break a fe+canons with an all-in attack, and P will have to get used to scout it and defend accordingly (as any all-in timing window). Not really different from an Hydra burst in BW imo. Stop crying about it. It is fine as it is.



2) the blink slight nerf with fungal growth is just an abuse of stalkers in late late game where mass stalkers will still own ultras, which was the only decent counter.



3) the void ray / corruptor change would not have affected you too much anyway.



So I still don't get why protoss are feeling soooooo underpowered now. The PvZ match up is for the most part unchanged.

The reason it is so hard is that you have to go robo just in case theres rroaches. you can 14 hatch and theres nothing we can do about it. Roaches are sooooo much better and even if you don`t the chance that you do just kills our econ. Theres no way to fe

The reason it is so hard is that you have to go robo just in case theres rroaches. you can 14 hatch and theres nothing we can do about it. Roaches are sooooo much better and even if you don`t the chance that you do just kills our econ. Theres no way to fe

rexob Profile Joined April 2010 Sweden 184 Posts #19



until i read here - and the Last two games i won pretty big, i went with the mass PhoeNix with expand Into colossi and it worked suprisingly well, especially on

Just FoCuS on probes in the beginning if it's a big map and Just aim for 2-port phoenixes and harass him, it is so good, u can Kill alot of drones and queens with Just 3 phoenixes and it shuts down his will to get roaches and mutalisk, and u get pretty good mapcontrol.

on

Just don't FoCuS too much on either unit and play passive, your mapctrl will make u able to out-macro the zerg,

gl & hf

cheers! I'm there with u, today i lost like 5 PvZ in a row, Just didn't know what to do, FE, twilight tech vs mutas or robotech vs hydras and i Just didn't know.until i read here - and the Last two games i won pretty big, i went with the mass PhoeNix with expand Into colossi and it worked suprisingly well, especially on Delta Quadrant Just FoCuS on probes in the beginning if it's a big map and Just aim for 2-port phoenixes and harass him, it is so good, u can Kill alot of drones and queens with Just 3 phoenixes and it shuts down his will to get roaches and mutalisk, and u get pretty good mapcontrol.on Delta Quadrant i sent some units early to Kill the expo-rocks, getting a super-safe expo and when that is done go for 2-robo colossi and get all the Gas u can Get. be active on killing Creep which should be easy since he needs the hydras to protect his drones and spend the extra Gas on sentries, forcefielding the already slow hydras. both games went Into pretty big macro games but i allways had the mapcontrol, beeing able to expand where i pleased. also get some upgrades eventually, i got speedlots and +2 dmg in the rly late-game and it Just ownsJust don't FoCuS too much on either unit and play passive, your mapctrl will make u able to out-macro the zerg,gl & hfcheers! it's a good day to die

kcdc Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 2311 Posts #20 On October 28 2010 02:43 Satire wrote:

Zerg has always been my weakest match as Protoss. The problem I am having is that with the Roach range change, more Zerg's have been seeing it as a viable strategy. (Notice the careful wording there)



I am climbing the ladder currently and playing 1200-1500 rated diamond players. I have been losing the last few games against Zerg. I am a macro-based player and typically try to out-macro my opponents outright. I have been experimenting with strategies varying from 15 nexus to crappy 4 gate to FE Phoenix, and I really just can't find a strategy that is "solid". (ie: against Terran for example I am comfortable with a 1 gate chronoed FE and the follow ups there) I feel like I am rolling the dice against the Zerg player.



Here are the 3 main mid-game options of Zerg:



1. Mutalisk/Ling (fairly common)

2. Hydra-push

3. Roach/Ling



The biggest problem I find is that for the initial mid-game push I simply can't *know* the exact push that is coming if they are spreading creep and denying scouting information via lings.



Protoss really have 4 scouting options in this scenario, but I can't seem to find the proper timing window for any of them.



1. An early gateway push: is only an option if you do a 3 gate expand build, or do some sort of heavy gateway play. Unless you are able to push into the base directly however, you aren't getting TOO much information. Considering most Zerg's play an early 2 base build with a midgame push, this really isn't a reliable way of getting information in my opinion. If you do get scouting information, it's probably because your push succeeded, in which case you're in a good position already and the scouting really has no real effect. I suppose I could poke in and try to run out, but that tends to be difficult with large amounts of lings. Stalkers typically help in the other match-ups because of their speed, but their weakness against lings and their slowness vs lings make them not as viable of a poking unit.



2. Hallucination: is wise to use in a heavy warp gate build. This will pit you at a disadvantage against most mid-game pushes, although it saves you the money of investing in a tech building that you might not need to use. I personally don't like this option since you are going to need a Robo and/or Stargate at some point to deal with the Zerg mid and late game anyways. I still think Hallucination is underused however, but I'm not really sure how to incorporate it into my build in a non-gimmick sort of manner .



3. Observer: This requires a Robo-bay which is something you will need anyways for late game at least. The problem I am finding is that by the time it gets to their base the midgame push is coming. If they are going Muta-ling for example you will not be prepared enough to really not be at a disadvantage if they harass correctly.



4. Phoenix: is what most players are seeming to lean towards to try force the Zerg down a more Robo-play tech path. The problem with this is that realistically you need to fast expand for it to work, and you also give a Zerg with proper scouting the thumbs up to either bust into your base with a well timed Hydra push, or to double expand if he sees your fast expand. If you try to one base this, it's equivalent to an all-in to be quite honest. If the Phoenix's don't do damage, you are at a harsh disadvantage.



Don't get this wrong - I'm not complaining about Zerg's being imba or anything like that. I am simply wondering if players have found the "build" that is safe yet against Zerg since the patch. think the key will be to scout at a proper time and respond accordingly. I think Zerg must be facing a similar problem against Protoss, but they have slightly more options in regards to scouting with overlords and speed ling mobility.At that crucial mid-game push stage in the game it's really not plausible for a Zerg to pick more than one of those mid-game combinations above. At this point I feel like regardless of the opening I pick, I am merely playing Russian roulette and hoping that the Zerg responds to my build in a favorable way to me.



15 Nexus: Please don't double expand as a response or 1 base Roach

FE - Stargate: Please don't do a well timed Hydra push or Roach/Ling with Queens

4 Gate: ... Please be bad? 4 gate is terrible against most good Zergs.

Gate/Robo: Please don't go Muta/Ling

3 Gate Pressure into FE: Drone too hard please

FE into quick 6 gate: Please be unprepared.



I'm finding that mid-game push really dictates the rest of the game for me in PvZ. If I predict correctly I typically set the pace for the rest of the game, but otherwise I'm either losing outright or getting put at such a disadvantage that I can never catch up. Finally, I'm finding that in the event I try to early pressure to get the Zerg to waste his larva on defenses, that at my level the Zerg's are good enough to scout and know when to drone and when not to. I really feel the key here is getting that scouting information before the mid-game push comes, but I'm not sure how to go about it.



Any advice would be appreciated.



/endwalloftext





Great post. Sums everything up pretty nicely.



I've been having the same problems, and I'm finding that FE into phoenix is the most stable option IMO. If you manage to scout that he's not going for an all-in bust, you can go straight to stargate and get a phoenix to scout his base early enough to see what his tech path is and respond. If he attacks w/ hydras before you can get collosi, he typically won't have creep which means you'll be able to defend with zealot/phoenix. If he waits for creep, you'll have AOE in time. Phoenix+zealot is surprisingly decent against small numbers of hydras. Phoenixes do tons of damage to light.



Another option is FE into blink stalkers. I had a lot of success with this prior to the roach range buff, but now roaches seem too good against stalkers IMO, even with blink. Once upgrades start kicking in, roaches are cheaper, stronger and just as fast as stalkers....blink micro isn't going to save you.



The last option I've experimented with is rushing for HT after a FE. The idea is that you have archons + storms to deal with muta-ling, and you pump immortals to complement yoru stormers vs hydra-roach. Your composition winds up being really efficient, but I find that you have big immobility issues in the mid-game, and Z can exploit that to out-macro you pretty badly. Immortal, archon, templar, zealot is an insanely strong composition tho that you should consider shooting for in the late-game with any opening. The only vulnerability is brood lords. Great post. Sums everything up pretty nicely.I've been having the same problems, and I'm finding that FE into phoenix is the most stable option IMO. If you manage to scout that he's not going for an all-in bust, you can go straight to stargate and get a phoenix to scout his base early enough to see what his tech path is and respond. If he attacks w/ hydras before you can get collosi, he typically won't have creep which means you'll be able to defend with zealot/phoenix. If he waits for creep, you'll have AOE in time. Phoenix+zealot is surprisingly decent against small numbers of hydras. Phoenixes do tons of damage to light.Another option is FE into blink stalkers. I had a lot of success with this prior to the roach range buff, but now roaches seem too good against stalkers IMO, even with blink. Once upgrades start kicking in, roaches are cheaper, stronger and just as fast as stalkers....blink micro isn't going to save you.The last option I've experimented with is rushing for HT after a FE. The idea is that you have archons + storms to deal with muta-ling, and you pump immortals to complement yoru stormers vs hydra-roach. Your composition winds up being really efficient, but I find that you have big immobility issues in the mid-game, and Z can exploit that to out-macro you pretty badly. Immortal, archon, templar, zealot is an insanely strong composition tho that you should consider shooting for in the late-game with any opening. The only vulnerability is brood lords.

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