After I left Mormonism, many active Mormon loved ones have tried to save me and call me to repentance. These conversations are always tricky, so in a feeble attempt to learn how the Socratic dialogue can arrive at truth in a respectful way, I’ve written some fictional dialogues between Socrates, who recently left Mormonism, and Plato, his active Mormon friend.

Today’s topic: being moral without the Church and whether the outside world is as bad as we think.

[Socrates, who left the Mormon faith a year ago, continues a discussion with his friend Plato, who is an active Mormon, over lunch at Cafe Rio.]

Plato:

Let me guess, carnitas burrito, enchilada style?

Socrates:

Actually, I got the taco salad this time. That green sauce is seriously amazing.

Plato:

[Pauses]

Socrates, I want to get back to what we were talking about the other day. I’m worried about your kids. Now that you’ve left the Church, how will you teach them to be moral people? The world is getting more and more evil all the time. Just turn on the news. Without the Church, where are they going to learn their morals? I just look around and see heavy drug usage, pornography, and premarital sex glorified all over the media.

Socrates:

Well, let’s start with one of the assumptions that I think you’ve made. You say the world is getting more evil all the time. How do you know that the world is getting more and more evil?

Plato:

In my parents’ generation, they watched stuff like the Andy Griffith show. There was no swearing, no sexual content, and no drugs anywhere. Now, you’ve got horrible content on TV filled with that stuff. Our parents generation wouldn’t dare watch the shows that we watch now.

Socrates:

That’s true. Do you think that real drug usage and unhealthy sexual activity is increasing in society, mirroring the increased level of that stuff on TV?

Plato:

It has to be. I’m hearing news stories all the time about meth dealers, drug trade, human trafficking, and all kinds of horrible stuff.

Socrates:

Would you believe me if I told you that teen drug and alcohol use is down? If I remember right, the article says that drug usage among teens may have reached the lowest it’s ever been since they started the survey in 1975.

Plato:

I don’t believe that.

Socrates:

According to the best evidence we have, that is the case. Positive news stories like that don’t sell ads, so it’s unlikely people will hear about it.

Plato:

But what about premarital sex and high school pregnancies? I swear I hear about this all the time.

Socrates:

What if I told you that the teenage birth rate was highest during the golden era of the 1950’s, and that it is now at its lowest ever? It’s counter-intuitive, but teen pregnancy rates were much, much higher during the era of the Andy Griffith show at 96 births per 1000 teenage females. That’s almost 1 in 10. They’re currently at an all time low of 24 births per 1000 teenage females. Apparently, things that are contributing to the decline in birth rate include less sex among teenagers and better education on safe-sex and birth control. Sure, I think having sex at a young age is something that should be taken very seriously since it can have grave physical and emotional consequences, but I am extremely grateful that my kids are growing up in an era where teen sex is lower than ever and safe and healthy sex practices are widely known.

Plato:

Where do you find that information? I’ve never heard that before.

Socrates:

I had exactly the same question as you, “How do I raise my kids without the Church and make sure they come out alright?” Then, I did lots of research. I’m incredibly grateful that my kids are growing up now and not during the 1950’s.

Plato:

Well, what about pornography? We hear about that all the time in General Conference, and there’s no way you can tell me that porn usage was higher in the 1950’s than it is now. It is an epidemic, Socrates, especially among teenagers.

Socrates:

I agree that pornography can be harmful, especially if used in large quantities. The evidence shows that watching porn floods the brain with dopamine, and people who use too much can lose their interest in real sex. I totally hear you there. However, I also think that too much shame and guilt over pornography can be dangerous. Evidence shows that when people are told that they are addicted to porn, they can experience long-term depression and distress. In my view, this can start a vicious cycle where kids can become depressed for exploring their natural curiosity in sex, then use porn as a coping mechanism to get the shot of dopamine, and then feel depressed again, etc.

Homo sapiens showed up on the planet about 200 thousand years ago, but the sexual drive in living things on this planet predates us by 500 million years. Of course kids and adults are going to be curious about sex. I want my kids to know what the evidence says about pornography usage. It is clear from the data that too much can be negatively impactful, but imposing shame and guilt for using it can be negatively impactful too, leading to a cycle of depression. When I was in a singles ward, I think porn came up at least once per month in lessons, and I know some guys who basically measured the value of their life by how many days since the last time they looked at porn. In their cases, porn was literally defining their lives, and I know of at least one person who felt nearly suicidal because of it.

The sexual drive is powerful. There’s no way I’m going to teach my kids never to masturbate like I was taught as a young Mormon. There are apparently some health benefits to masturbation, although normal sex apparently produces more health benefits. I want my kids to have a healthy sense of their self worth and know what is true due to real evidence and not opinion.

Plato:

But, even if the science says that masturbation is ok, doesn’t it just feel wrong to you?

Socrates:

I think it is very natural for us to have extremely strong feelings about sex given how central sex drive is to our existence as living things. But, if the evidence shows that shame is highly unhealthy and moderate masturbation is just fine, then that’s what I’m going to accept.

Plato:

I guess that brings me to a bigger question. Without the Church in your life, how do you know what is good and moral anymore? If you don’t believe in God, what is stopping you from stealing from people, dealing drugs, and having affairs? If there’s no punishment, why not do all that stuff?

Socrates:

Is the only thing stopping you from cheating on your wife your fear that God will punish you?

Plato:

No, I love my wife, and I know that would hurt her.

Socrates:

Exactly. I think that if the only reason you hold yourself back from harming people is your fear of divine punishment, then you’re not a very good person to begin with. I don’t do harmful things to my wife, my kids, and to my fellow human beings because I love them and I want them to live free of suffering. I think you should want to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do, not because you fear punishment if you’re bad.

Plato:

Well, you say all of this, but all I know is that the world is getting more and more secular, and look how absolutely horrible things are getting all over the world. Look at all of the wars, death, and chaos running rampant everywhere. It’s all over the news. If we all came back to God and to the Restored Gospel, I know that the world would become much more peaceful.

Socrates:

Well, what if I told you that we’re living in what is perhaps one of the most peaceful and uplifting eras in all of human history? Deaths due to war are way, way down. The two World Wars last century unleashed more suffering and evil on humanity than any other time. And since then? We have entered an era of breathtaking peace. There’s an incredibly moving video about this data it that I’d love to show you sometime. Although it’s true that terrible things still happen, I think the truth of the matter is that we are simply far more aware of bad things than ever due to the interconnectedness of our communication technology. If you look at the data, it is definitely not the case that suffering has increased generally. The world is getting better and better all the time.

On the news, we see stories all the time about how disease and poverty are running rampant. Would you say that there is more extreme poverty or less extreme poverty now than in the 1950’s?

Plato:

I’d say more. It just seems like the world is getting worse and worse over time. In the last days, we know that the world will face all kinds of horrible calamities.

Socrates:

Let me tell you what the evidence shows. The definition of extreme poverty used by the UN is the level of poverty where you cannot afford to buy enough food to eat. There’s an amazing video by the professor Hans Rosling about this, and I’ll show it to you later. In 1800, 85% of the world’s population lived in extreme poverty. In the 1970’s, that percentage finally fell to 50%. In the 1990’s, it hit 30%. Today, that number is 12%. And it is still dropping. In fact, the UN has made it a goal to eliminate extreme poverty from the globe by 2030. Ever heard of stopping world hunger? It is probably going to happen during our lifetimes. You will likely live to see that day. It will be the first time in human history when all people everywhere will have enough wealth to afford food for their families. When I think about this fact, I feel profoundly grateful to be alive.

In recent decades, we’ve eliminated smallpox from the face of the earth, and that used to kill millions per year. Polio has nearly been eradicated from the earth. Malaria still rages, killing almost 1000 kids under five years old per day, which is absolutely heart-breaking. However, due to extraordinary efforts from governments and NGOs all over the world, we’ve distributed over a billion insecticide treated bed-nets, possibly saving the lives of millions of people. In fact, if you want to know what one of the cheapest ways that exists to save a human life, donate something like $3,000 to the Against Malaria Foundation, which distributes these bed nets. Give Well, a charity evaluator, has listed the Against Malaria Foundation as the most effective charity in the world. We live in a time where you can live a comfortable lifestyle, and, perhaps once per year with some of the extra resources you have, you can become a hero and save a person’s life. There has never been a time in human history when we had so much power to do so much good.

Plato, all of the evidence shows that the world is getting better and better. Not many people know it. Nicholas Kristof from the New York Times says that this progress is the most important thing, but it’s almost a secret. Good news doesn’t sell newspapers or internet ads. The evidence shows that the world is getting better extremely quickly, and I can’t tell you how grateful I am to be alive. When someone at Church tells you that the world has never been so wicked and horrible, I dare you to pull out the evidence and show them that’s wrong.

The world is getting better, Plato, and it’s getting better astonishingly quickly. I’m here to bring you glad tidings of great joy.

Plato:

I feel like you’re the only person I know who thinks the world is getting better, so it’s hard to believe you. Remember what the scriptures tell us: “Wo unto them who say all is well in Zion.”

Socrates:

[Chuckles]

Yes, wo unto them, for their articles shall not receive clicks and their bank accounts shall run dry.

But, don’t the scriptures also say, “The truth shall set you free?” The truth is both astonishing and inspiring, Plato.