blade55555 Profile Blog Joined March 2009 United States 17375 Posts Last Edited: 2012-08-21 07:22:45 #1 and the timings I use are probably very similar).



This guide will have plenty of replays (5 to start out with more being added within the week) and will show many different scenarios, roach/ling/bane aggression, roach pressure, 2 base roach attacks, etc. So there will be many scenarios that you can see how I defend vs certain builds!



For those curious on my other guides you can locate them here:



+ Show Spoiler +



Zerg vs Zerg Muta play:



Zerg vs Terran guide:



Zerg vs Protoss guide:



Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide:



Zerg vs Protoss Tier 2 aggression:



Zerg vs protoss Banelings: Zerg vs Zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 Zerg vs Zerg Muta play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282954 Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960 Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354 Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629 Zerg vs Protoss Tier 2 aggression: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318129 Zerg vs protoss Banelings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338403





Hello guys and yes I am writing another guide! Now that I have so much free time I have been able to play a bit more with styles that I don't use or new styles and this one is a new style that I imagine is getting pretty popular but I could be wrong. This is ling/infestor double upgrades into ultra the build stephano has been using and yes this build is that except my own timings (I don't know stephano's timingsand the timings I use are probably very similar).This guide will have plenty of replays (5 to start out with more being added within the week) and will show many different scenarios, roach/ling/bane aggression, roach pressure, 2 base roach attacks, etc. So there will be many scenarios that you can see how I defend vs certain builds!For those curious on my other guides you can locate them here: --------Introduction--------



Ok so I am going to explain the concept of the build and your overall game plan. The basic way to explain is it go mass ling with upgrades into infestors into hive into ultralisks. Simple way to explain it. I saw stephano do this style and have been messing around with it for about 2 weeks I think? Maybe a week in a half but I have literally only done this style so that I can perfect it and add it to my zvz arsenal of builds. I have found this build insanely strong and have been having fun doing this.



I can't remember what zerg stephano did this to in a tournament, but I heard about it and watched him stream and do the build and I found I liked it. It's a zvt concept in zvz. That is when I decided I was going to start learning it and I am very confident in my ability to do this build now.



The replays will showcase zvz at high masters on both na/kr server. Now this build doesn't matter if you 14/14 or hatch first so I am not really going to go into huge detail on going either.



So now to the build order!



Ok so I am going to explain the concept of the build and your overall game plan. The basic way to explain is it go mass ling with upgrades into infestors into hive into ultralisks. Simple way to explain it. I saw stephano do this style and have been messing around with it for about 2 weeks I think? Maybe a week in a half but I have literally only done this style so that I can perfect it and add it to my zvz arsenal of builds. I have found this build insanely strong and have been having fun doing this.I can't remember what zerg stephano did this to in a tournament, but I heard about it and watched him stream and do the build and I found I liked it. It's a zvt concept in zvz. That is when I decided I was going to start learning it and I am very confident in my ability to do this build now.The replays will showcase zvz at high masters on both na/kr server. Now this build doesn't matter if you 14/14 or hatch first so I am not really going to go into huge detail on going either.So now to the build order! --------Build order--------



9 - overlord

9 - drone scout (I only do this on 2 player maps to block their hatch if they go hatch first and go hatch first myself)

15 - hatchery

14-16 - gas/spawning pool (if other player hatch firsts 16 gas then pool, if 14/14 15 pool 15 gas)

16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord

1st 100 gas - metabolic boost (speedling upgrade)

5:00 - 5:25 - baneling nest(defensive purpose)

5:30 - 6:00 - spine (I would recommend a spine but don't have to)

6:45 - 7:00 - 2 evo chambers

7:10 - add 2nd and third gas

start lair after starting +1 melee/carapace with next 100 gas. No time on this because any sorts of aggression can happen in zvz

after lair starts - fourth gas (or right before)

infestation pit and get 2/2 as soon as lair finishes

add spines to third/natural as needed (more in explanation section)

4 or so infestors then hive

hive finishes - start 3/3, ultra cavern





--------explanation and anaylsis--------



+ Show Spoiler +



The drone scout is just what I like to do, you do not have to do this and won't change the game other then playing blind (which I hate).



Now again the hatch first 14/14 is up to you, this doesn't change the timings to much on what you need. I didn't add 2 queens when hatcheries finish because that is common knowledge I hope now of days .



So the spawning pool is very dependant or you do it blindly. Not much needed to explain this as I said it in there. The baneling nest is defensive, although you can be aggressive if you choose to be. I get this to defend vs possible ling/bane all ins or any sort of mass ling play.



The spine is good because you need defenses vs roach anyway and it helps vs ling/bane all ins, most zergs get 1 spine so this isn't anything new.



Now the 2 evo chambers I have found that 6:45-7 minutes is a good timing. You will probably see replays where I get it earlier, but I believe this is the best timing from doing this build many, many times.



I have found getting the 2nd and third gas later is better as you should have a stockpiled gas off of the 1 gas unelss you have been making a ton of banelings. Now if you have been doing mass ling/bane because that's what you had to do to defend then I would get a 2nd gas so you can start 1/1 once you stabalize or whatever.



Now the third base timing can be up to you completely and can be situational as well. I would try to get it before starting lair. You can just stay on 2 base as it does make it easier to hold off all ins, but I would try to get that third before lair so that you can get spines there as spines are very crucial with this build. You will die if you don't get spines to mass roach play as mass roach/ling attacks will hit before infestors.



Now you should get your 5th and 6th gases once you drone up a little bit, once your third is getting drones is when I would start getting those gases. Your hive should start fairly quickly, literally after you start 2/2 and get some infestors your hive should be going.



Upgrades are very crucial with this build so you should make sure to start 3/3 and ultra armor upgrade before ultra production. Upgrades are very strong, especially since the player going roach/infestor, roach/hydra, etc won't be going fast lair and won't have 3/3 anywhere near as fast as you do.



Now if your opponent is doing the same build as you, you don't need as many spines. You should only make a couple at natural/third/etc as you don't need to many since youb otha re getting the same unit composition. Now to explain it in a little more detail. That's the basic build order but now to explain this in more detail.The drone scout is just what I like to do, you do not have to do this and won't change the game other then playing blind (which I hate).Now again the hatch first 14/14 is up to you, this doesn't change the timings to much on what you need. I didn't add 2 queens when hatcheries finish because that is common knowledge I hope now of daysSo the spawning pool is very dependant or you do it blindly. Not much needed to explain this as I said it in there. The baneling nest is defensive, although you can be aggressive if you choose to be. I get this to defend vs possible ling/bane all ins or any sort of mass ling play.The spine is good because you need defenses vs roach anyway and it helps vs ling/bane all ins, most zergs get 1 spine so this isn't anything new.Now the 2 evo chambers I have found that 6:45-7 minutes is a good timing. You will probably see replays where I get it earlier, but I believe this is the best timing from doing this build many, many times.I have found getting the 2nd and third gas later is better as you should have a stockpiled gas off of the 1 gas unelss you have been making a ton of banelings. Now if you have been doing mass ling/bane because that's what you had to do to defend then I would get a 2nd gas so you can start 1/1 once you stabalize or whatever.Now the third base timing can be up to you completely and can be situational as well. I would try to get it before starting lair. You can just stay on 2 base as it does make it easier to hold off all ins, but I would try to get that third before lair so that you can get spines there as spines are very crucial with this build. You will die if you don't get spines to mass roach play as mass roach/ling attacks will hit before infestors.Now you should get your 5th and 6th gases once you drone up a little bit, once your third is getting drones is when I would start getting those gases. Your hive should start fairly quickly, literally after you start 2/2 and get some infestors your hive should be going.Upgrades are very crucial with this build so you should make sure to start 3/3 and ultra armor upgrade before ultra production. Upgrades are very strong, especially since the player going roach/infestor, roach/hydra, etc won't be going fast lair and won't have 3/3 anywhere near as fast as you do.Now if your opponent is doing the same build as you, you don't need as many spines. You should only make a couple at natural/third/etc as you don't need to many since youb otha re getting the same unit composition.



--------Holding off roach aggression--------



+ Show Spoiler +



What I would recommend is having 3-5 spines at third + natural. This is a good amount and with mass ling/infestor you should be able to hold unless you are very behind or something then you shouldn't do this.



You should be doing counter attacks with some lings as well when he attacks. There will be times when you can't defend your third, so make sure you can kill his. Remember lings are incredibly fast, you can kill his third and with spine + infestor support keep your natural safe to. Losing your third if you supply block, forget to make spines, etc you can lose the third to early roach/ling aggression. This is not the end of the world, but it is avoidable. There will be a few replays showcasing me losing my third . Now when you do this build and your opponent realizes it there is a good chance he will do a timing with roach/ling. Again you need spine crawlers. You should also try to engage in a good spot with your lings. You want to go for a surround, if you can't surround him and are only hitting 5-6 of his roaches with your mass ling you are going to lose, pull back and wait for a opening. Do not engage stupidly, this is very crucial. Another way you can do this is go roach/ling yourself but I don't really recommend this as that will take a lot of gas and hurt your upgrade timing or ultra/infestor count.What I would recommend is having 3-5 spines at third + natural. This is a good amount and with mass ling/infestor you should be able to hold unless you are very behind or something then you shouldn't do this.You should be doing counter attacks with some lings as well when he attacks. There will be times when you can't defend your third, so make sure you can kill his. Remember lings are incredibly fast, you can kill his third and with spine + infestor support keep your natural safe to. Losing your third if you supply block, forget to make spines, etc you can lose the third to early roach/ling aggression. This is not the end of the world, but it is avoidable. There will be a few replays showcasing me losing my third



--------Holding off Mutalisks--------



+ Show Spoiler + Now ling/infestor is actually a good counter to mutalisks. You should put 1-2 spores at all bases and make sure to get infestors, you will want more then 4 and you will most likely be delaying your hive by about a minute which is fine. You should either have a third before his mutalisks pop, if not you will have to wait until infestors. Try to sneak some lings to deny/kill his third if possible as you should have a decent amount of lings.



There is not much else to really say about this sort of aggression.



--------Holding off roach/speed bane attacks--------

+ Show Spoiler +

So there is a replay down below if you want an example of beating the roach/speedbane especially before infestors pop. The best way to beat this style is to have at least 2-3 spines and some banelings of your own.



The reason you want banelings of your own is so that the banelings that get past can be taken down with your banelings (and you will have upgrades for them and he won't). Do not get speed bane, slow banes will do just fine. When you see his banelings coming up pre-infestor timing make sure you have some banelings to intercept. This is the real threat is the first pre-infestor timing roach/speed bane attack. If you hold it, you should be just fine because infestors should be out any second.



You have to be very careful vs speed bane play as you do not want to lose all your lings to them, this is very critical and you will want to baby sit your lings a little bit and split them so that if speed banes are going to hit them they won't kill them all. Since you will have upgrades your lings should be able to take a hit without dying (not recommended still). But this makes it not as bad if only one hits compared to 2 and they all die.



This is probably going to be people's biggest problem is beating this after they figure out the infestor timing, if you can remember to make banelings of your own and spines you should be just fine. don't forget to watch your mineral line to!





--------The Advantages--------



+ Show Spoiler + Good upgrades, overall ling/infestor is strong vs almost any composition



Has a great transition into late game with upgrades intact which if you can get to hive and to ultras and he isn't doing the same build you are going to be in a great position.



Very defensive style, you counter attack with some lings, but overall defensive. For players who like a strong build that can get them into late game this is a good style for them.



Ultralisks are incredibly strong with 5/3 upgrades vs all ground army especially with infestor support.



--------The Disadvantages--------

+ Show Spoiler +

Your opponent will have map control over you if he is going roach play or mutalisk play. This is fine but is a disadvantage.



Your opponent should be able to secure a fourth a little faster then you with roach play. This gives him a slight eco advantage, but you won't be to far behind him as you will be getting utralisks with good upgrades, but a disadvantage non the less.



Defensive style. This is both disadvantage and advantage because some people don't like defensive, even if it's for 15 minutes of the game. You don't want to be to aggressive and you really can't vs roach/infestor until ultralisks are out.



If there are more I'll be sure to note it.



--------FAQ--------

+ Show Spoiler +

I played vs roach/speedbane and it hit before infestors and I died. How can I defend this?



To defend vs a roach/speedbane, you should have at least 3 spines at this point which will help a lot vs this, but you also will want some banelings on your own. Not speed banelings obviously, but you will want a few of your own to connect with his to kill them before they can touch your lings. This timing is really only worrisome before infestors come out, once infestors pop you should be fine.





--------Replays--------



These replays will be both from the NA and korean server. Both will be high masters from the server, so this isn't me vs low or bad players, this will showcase it vs high masters players. This will showcase some muta play, roach, etc. I will be adding more within the week!



http://www.mediafire.com/?qtsybe1q3wzk1bg

(both of these games showcase early heavy ling/bane pressure but I still continue doing the build while dealing with it)

(this game showcases this style vs mutalisks)

(2 replays show casing roach/ling/infestor into ultralisks an easier way to execute this build)



These replays will be both from the NA and korean server. Both will be high masters from the server, so this isn't me vs low or bad players, this will showcase it vs high masters players. This will showcase some muta play, roach, etc. I will be adding more within the week! http://www.mediafire.com/?aipawnb51ko2p15 (both of these games showcase early heavy ling/bane pressure but I still continue doing the build while dealing with it) http://www.mediafire.com/?hph80ghbgo48f8i (this game showcases this style vs mutalisks) http://www.mediafire.com/?vf666vq4aw4l5n4 (2 replays show casing roach/ling/infestor into ultralisks an easier way to execute this build) --------Commentated ling/infestor into ultra vs roach/speedbane--------

+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler + When I think of something else, something will go here

ArcticRaven Profile Joined August 2011 France 1238 Posts #2 Thank you so much for this, i was just typing a thread asking for this when i saw it :D



I have a question though, probably because of my horrible understanding of zvz : why not drop a spire with the hive and directly go to broodlords ? Aren't they better than ultras, and also faster to get thanks to morphing already existing units ? [Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!

Aocowns Profile Blog Joined February 2011 Norway 6069 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-14 21:05:25 #3 bookmarked, definetly interested in trying this out. Great guide, as always I'm a salt-lord and hater of mech and ForGG, don't take me seriously, it's just my salt-humour speaking i swear. |KadaverBB best TL gaoler| |~IdrA's #1 fan~| SetGuitarsToKill and Duckk are my martyr heroes |

blade55555 Profile Blog Joined March 2009 United States 17375 Posts #4 On June 15 2012 05:57 ArcticRaven wrote:

Thank you so much for this, i was just typing a thread asking for this when i saw it :D



I have a question though, probably because of my horrible understanding of zvz : why not drop a spire with the hive and directly go to broodlords ? Aren't they better than ultras, and also faster to get thanks to morphing already existing units ?



Hmm broodlords are a slow unit and while they are better in fights due to only hydra/infested terrans able to hit them the other zerg can go for a base trade style. Also you spend more gas as you have to get the spire 200/200, start greater spire 150/150 (I think), then you have to get corruptors 100/150 and then morph them which is 150/150? (can't remember bl cost).



If going ultra's you just get armor upgrade 200/200, then start making ultras. That is why I find it superior to broodlords and again base trade styles and all that. Hmm broodlords are a slow unit and while they are better in fights due to only hydra/infested terrans able to hit them the other zerg can go for a base trade style. Also you spend more gas as you have to get the spire 200/200, start greater spire 150/150 (I think), then you have to get corruptors 100/150 and then morph them which is 150/150? (can't remember bl cost).If going ultra's you just get armor upgrade 200/200, then start making ultras. That is why I find it superior to broodlords and again base trade styles and all that. When I think of something else, something will go here

ArcticRaven Profile Joined August 2011 France 1238 Posts #5

Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350



In the end the infrastructure costs the same so there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.



But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things. Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350In the end the infrastructure costs the sameso there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things. [Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!

Thraundil Profile Joined August 2010 Denmark 278 Posts #6



And @ the brood lord tech option from the opponent; imo this is a giveaway. If he stays on roach only or roach with few infestors, you KNOW he is getting T3 (or some dodgy muta play). You know it aint ultras cos their synergy with roaches is terrible. If he makes many many infestors, or adds many hydras too, he wont be able to afford broods. But if you spot the giveaway of few gas intense units, simply pop down a spire and stay active on the map? Its not a huge investment, and if you see broods while attacking his base, you pull back, queue 10 corrupters and laugh as you spread out to avoid fungals, and whack his super expensive broods while they do no damage.



One question on the actual build though. How does this handle a very defensive roach/infestor mass eco player? If you wanna be agressive before ultralisks it costs a lot of larvae and he will probably be ahead in economy. If he can afford to make half and half roach/hydra with just some 4-5 early infestors to lock down many zerglings with fungal... With better econ surely this will give you a hard time - assuming he opts for turtle rather than timing attack when/if he sees what you are doing. Very interesting style. I've been tired of SCII as of late, trolling around in the very low end of master league doing weird builds that sometimes work only because the opponent must be going "the HELL???". This could be what gets me back in the gameAnd @ the brood lord tech option from the opponent; imo this is a giveaway. If he stays on roach only or roach with few infestors, you KNOW he is getting T3 (or some dodgy muta play). You know it aint ultras cos their synergy with roaches is terrible. If he makes many many infestors, or adds many hydras too, he wont be able to afford broods. But if you spot the giveaway of few gas intense units, simply pop down a spire and stay active on the map? Its not a huge investment, and if you see broods while attacking his base, you pull back, queue 10 corrupters and laugh as you spread out to avoid fungals, and whack his super expensive broods while they do no damage.One question on the actual build though. How does this handle a very defensive roach/infestor mass eco player? If you wanna be agressive before ultralisks it costs a lot of larvae and he will probably be ahead in economy. If he can afford to make half and half roach/hydra with just some 4-5 early infestors to lock down many zerglings with fungal... With better econ surely this will give you a hard time - assuming he opts for turtle rather than timing attack when/if he sees what you are doing. Hivemind! Just like IRL...

Aocowns Profile Blog Joined February 2011 Norway 6069 Posts #7 Was this what Idra tried doing against Monster in the recent clan war? Monster did some weird speed bane runbyes, and Idra lost pretty badly. A one off, or is speed bane something that can work against this unless you are prepared for it? I'm a salt-lord and hater of mech and ForGG, don't take me seriously, it's just my salt-humour speaking i swear. |KadaverBB best TL gaoler| |~IdrA's #1 fan~| SetGuitarsToKill and Duckk are my martyr heroes |

Chaosvuistje Profile Joined April 2010 Netherlands 2579 Posts #8



Thanks for writing and testing Interesting. I will still stick to my spire style, but I will read up on this to maybe get a new techswitch option should I scout something from my opponent.Thanks for writing and testing

galtdunn Profile Joined March 2011 United States 799 Posts #9 I have been being beaten by this build all day so I'm adopting it! First game was an easy win against a similar ling/infestor style. Thanks for the write up! I've bookmarked it. Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.

galtdunn Profile Joined March 2011 United States 799 Posts #10 On June 15 2012 06:54 Aocowns wrote:

Was this what Idra tried doing against Monster in the recent clan war? Monster did some weird speed bane runbyes, and Idra lost pretty badly. A one off, or is speed bane something that can work against this unless you are prepared for it?

I saw that game, that was a very strange style and one i don't think idra was prepared for.

You have to have really good control and reaction speed to hold that off with this style I expect. Maybe use small groups of lings to attack the banes while running your drones away? Or maybe just counterattack, because the banes+research for speed banes might put him behind in actual army. I saw that game, that was a very strange style and one i don't think idra was prepared for.You have to have really good control and reaction speed to hold that off with this style I expect. Maybe use small groups of lings to attack the banes while running your drones away? Or maybe just counterattack, because the banes+research for speed banes might put him behind in actual army. Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.

Icarox Profile Joined January 2011 Sweden 78 Posts #11 I faced this build on the ladder the other day, it really confused me, locked down my roach-timing and then just humiliated me with the ultras. I was puzzled to say the least.

But it really feels like a far too turtlish build, it will be interesting when this strategy has been tested more.

blade55555 Profile Blog Joined March 2009 United States 17375 Posts #12 On June 15 2012 06:54 Aocowns wrote:

Was this what Idra tried doing against Monster in the recent clan war? Monster did some weird speed bane runbyes, and Idra lost pretty badly. A one off, or is speed bane something that can work against this unless you are prepared for it?



Don't know but one of the replays I uploaded show cases a guy going roach/speed bane and tries to kill me (this was played today to).



On June 15 2012 06:30 ArcticRaven wrote:

Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350

Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350



In the end the infrastructure costs the same so there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.



But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things. Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350In the end the infrastructure costs the sameso there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things.



Don't forget - corruptors - broodlords. You have to make the corruptors and then morph them so it costs more gas .



But I mean it really is super easy to counter broodlords which is why ultras are better ^^.



On June 15 2012 06:31 Thraundil wrote:

Very interesting style. I've been tired of SCII as of late, trolling around in the very low end of master league doing weird builds that sometimes work only because the opponent must be going "the HELL???". This could be what gets me back in the game



And @ the brood lord tech option from the opponent; imo this is a giveaway. If he stays on roach only or roach with few infestors, you KNOW he is getting T3 (or some dodgy muta play). You know it aint ultras cos their synergy with roaches is terrible. If he makes many many infestors, or adds many hydras too, he wont be able to afford broods. But if you spot the giveaway of few gas intense units, simply pop down a spire and stay active on the map? Its not a huge investment, and if you see broods while attacking his base, you pull back, queue 10 corrupters and laugh as you spread out to avoid fungals, and whack his super expensive broods while they do no damage.



One question on the actual build though. How does this handle a very defensive roach/infestor mass eco player? If you wanna be agressive before ultralisks it costs a lot of larvae and he will probably be ahead in economy. If he can afford to make half and half roach/hydra with just some 4-5 early infestors to lock down many zerglings with fungal... With better econ surely this will give you a hard time - assuming he opts for turtle rather than timing attack when/if he sees what you are doing. Very interesting style. I've been tired of SCII as of late, trolling around in the very low end of master league doing weird builds that sometimes work only because the opponent must be going "the HELL???". This could be what gets me back in the gameAnd @ the brood lord tech option from the opponent; imo this is a giveaway. If he stays on roach only or roach with few infestors, you KNOW he is getting T3 (or some dodgy muta play). You know it aint ultras cos their synergy with roaches is terrible. If he makes many many infestors, or adds many hydras too, he wont be able to afford broods. But if you spot the giveaway of few gas intense units, simply pop down a spire and stay active on the map? Its not a huge investment, and if you see broods while attacking his base, you pull back, queue 10 corrupters and laugh as you spread out to avoid fungals, and whack his super expensive broods while they do no damage.One question on the actual build though. How does this handle a very defensive roach/infestor mass eco player? If you wanna be agressive before ultralisks it costs a lot of larvae and he will probably be ahead in economy. If he can afford to make half and half roach/hydra with just some 4-5 early infestors to lock down many zerglings with fungal... With better econ surely this will give you a hard time - assuming he opts for turtle rather than timing attack when/if he sees what you are doing.



With this build you aren't trying to be aggressive until ultralisks are out. You want to do ling runby's and stuff but no all out aggression as it won't work unless he is out of position or something. Don't know but one of the replays I uploaded show cases a guy going roach/speed bane and tries to kill me (this was played today to).Don't forget - corruptors - broodlords. You have to make the corruptors and then morph them so it costs more gasBut I mean it really is super easy to counter broodlords which is why ultras are better ^^.With this build you aren't trying to be aggressive until ultralisks are out. You want to do ling runby's and stuff but no all out aggression as it won't work unless he is out of position or something. When I think of something else, something will go here

Sapp Profile Joined March 2011 Poland 173 Posts #13 On June 15 2012 06:30 ArcticRaven wrote:

Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350

Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350



In the end the infrastructure costs the same so there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.



But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things. Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350In the end the infrastructure costs the sameso there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things.



In ZvT zergs stoped useing broods because marines can outrun you on the map ---> Zerg units are faster than terran bio, equals Broodlords are bad ZvZ. just like that. better stay roach/hydra/infestor In ZvT zergs stoped useing broods because marines can outrun you on the map ---> Zerg units are faster than terran bio, equals Broodlords are bad ZvZ. just like that. better stay roach/hydra/infestor Quote? O.o?

blade55555 Profile Blog Joined March 2009 United States 17375 Posts #14 On June 15 2012 08:11 Sapp wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 15 2012 06:30 ArcticRaven wrote:

Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350

Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350



In the end the infrastructure costs the same so there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.



But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things. Ultra cavern + armor upgrade => 450/350Spire + Greater Spire => 350/350In the end the infrastructure costs the sameso there's only the basetrade problem ? If so i think that going broodlords first to repel anything he might throw at you then switching to ultras as he gets his spire up might be more effective - especially since a heavily upgraded ling army with plenty of spare minerals to keep building proxy hatches & extractors should have the edge i feel.But then this is only theorycraft - i'll try to do it your way as well as possible before trying to change things.



In ZvT zergs stoped useing broods because marines can outrun you on the map ---> Zerg units are faster than terran bio, equals Broodlords are bad ZvZ. just like that. better stay roach/hydra/infestor In ZvT zergs stoped useing broods because marines can outrun you on the map ---> Zerg units are faster than terran bio, equals Broodlords are bad ZvZ. just like that. better stay roach/hydra/infestor



I wouldn't say broodlords are bad zvt at all, they are still incredibly strong. I just think going ultras first then going into bl's is stronger though now of days. I wouldn't say broodlords are bad zvt at all, they are still incredibly strong. I just think going ultras first then going into bl's is stronger though now of days. When I think of something else, something will go here

theBIGdog Profile Joined February 2011 United States 41 Posts #15



great write up nooooo! now everyone is gonna be doing thisgreat write up ULTRASTOMP

StarBrift Profile Joined January 2008 Sweden 1720 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-14 23:50:50 #16 I worked out almost an identical build to this today too based on the style I saw at MLG. I gotta say that you really feel the strenght of this build once you get a hang of it. After infestors are out there is nothing that can bust you if you have a spine wall unless you fell behind early. Also any time you see him going for one of your bases you can pretty much get a guarranteed snipe on one of his bases unless he has them littered with banes. You can really force a roach player to stay defensive with just continuous counters and runbys.



Excellent potential in this build imo. As an example I ran by with 12 lings when he was going for my third with all his units. Those 12 lings killed all his 3 queens since they were 2-2 and he only had 1 armor. Then I got some drones and an evo. This happens all the time. It forces the roach player to realise that his attack will be an all in.



The only problem I faced was roach/bane all ins before infestors pop. You need a lot of spread spines to defend this but you also need the spines somewhat close together to kill the roaches as they are going to be your main source of dps while the lings soak damage. The problem comes when the banes get close to your spines. They will blow up your spines if you let them get too close. But if you try and run after them with banes of your own then he will back off and snipe them with roaches. A neat trick I found that is really hard but worked sometimes for me is that you manually detonate your own banes to catch his banes right outside of spines range. This is tricky but if you succeed you will have used the range of bane explosion to save the lives of your spines and you'll win the battle.

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-15 00:48:07 #17 On June 15 2012 05:57 ArcticRaven wrote:

Thank you so much for this, i was just typing a thread asking for this when i saw it :D



I have a question though, probably because of my horrible understanding of zvz : why not drop a spire with the hive and directly go to broodlords ? Aren't they better than ultras, and also faster to get thanks to morphing already existing units ?



Broodlords take longer and cost more, there is no way you can get broodlords off of only 3 bases. However, you can get ultras, as long as you didn't make roaches or hydras. If you do this style, of getting 3 base ultra, vs someone going broodlords, you just snipe all his bases, broodlords are too slow and don't kill ultras fast enough. If he's doing something like roach/hydra/bl, then you just add a few corruptors into your army. It's literally just a superior unit composition of ling/ultra/infestor. it's the zvz deathball, just turtle on 3 base, get ultras, gg.







i really don't think anything can beat this, and that this will be the new standard in zvz. 2 base lair infestor blind counters 2 base muta, and before no one did that because it was assumed your third being so late, you would be screwed with your roach/hydra transition, but seeing as you never go to roach/hydra, it doesn't matter...



I think this build is a ton of fun, I've even won a game where I hadn't even gotten infestors, and I had totally droned up my 2 bases, I wasn't aggressive or anything, and I was playing someone who went standard fast third before lair roach on condemned ridge (where the 3 bases were far apart), and I literally just focused down all 3 of his bases at the exact same time just with the amount of lings I made off 2 base 3 hatch, and then my infestors popped when he did his desperate roach all-in with his bases being revealed lol.



It's also pretty... lame, imo. I really think it's kind of lame that it doesn't matter how good or bad the early or mid-game goes, you just turtle on 2 bases with ling/infestor, and eventually take your third with mass spines, infestors, and lings and get hive and ultras, and any sort of roach based play will get owned because broodlords suck against this (and you can't get nearly enough out in time against this fast hive style), and mass roach gets owned by ling/infestor/spine. The upgrades are incredible too, just putting 5 banelings on your ramp doesnt work if 1 baneling doesnt kill a ling anymore. You can focus down people's bases so quickly with this style.



It's literally just turtle on 2 base with spine/infestor so no sort of aggression can hurt you, then you move up your spines to protect you taking a third. Eventually, 6+ infestors with mass spines will secure a third, and then you get ultras and it's gg.



I've started doing this after being extremely frustrated by playing against this style, I found nothing worked and the advice everyone gives of "just roach bust" or "just nydus" or "just drop" solely relies on the ling/infestor player simply being bad or not making enough spines. Now that I've started doing this, I haven't lost a single game yet (out of about 8 games played).



Here's some reps where I did it, and badly.



(i eventually transitioned into broodlords, to bust his mass spine wall, so I had a pure bl/ultra/infestor crazy army. but once I had ultras out, I denied the opponent's 5th base, and even killed his 4th. it was only as close as it was because he got a clutch double fg and killed like 12 of my infestors all at once. he was a better player than me for sure though)



(didnt make enough spines. epic base trade where my ultra/ling army was just way more mobile than roach/hydra. i screwed up by not making enough spines and losing too many infestors though, and not enough ultras because i had to remake infestors)



(vs mutas, he had a lead but this style is just so epic i dont give a fuck how far ahead you are, bitch i get 3 bases and then its ultras gg)



(focused 3 hatches down) Broodlords take longer and cost more, there is no way you can get broodlords off of only 3 bases. However, you can get ultras, as long as you didn't make roaches or hydras. If you do this style, of getting 3 base ultra, vs someone going broodlords, you just snipe all his bases, broodlords are too slow and don't kill ultras fast enough. If he's doing something like roach/hydra/bl, then you just add a few corruptors into your army. It's literally just a superior unit composition of ling/ultra/infestor. it's the zvz deathball, just turtle on 3 base, get ultras, gg.i really don't think anything can beat this, and that this will be the new standard in zvz. 2 base lair infestor blind counters 2 base muta, and before no one did that because it was assumed your third being so late, you would be screwed with your roach/hydra transition, but seeing as you never go to roach/hydra, it doesn't matter...I think this build is a ton of fun, I've even won a game where I hadn't even gotten infestors, and I had totally droned up my 2 bases, I wasn't aggressive or anything, and I was playing someone who went standard fast third before lair roach on condemned ridge (where the 3 bases were far apart), and I literally just focused down all 3 of his bases at the exact same time just with the amount of lings I made off 2 base 3 hatch, and then my infestors popped when he did his desperate roach all-in with his bases being revealed lol.It's also pretty... lame, imo. I really think it's kind of lame that it doesn't matter how good or bad the early or mid-game goes, you just turtle on 2 bases with ling/infestor, and eventually take your third with mass spines, infestors, and lings and get hive and ultras, and any sort of roach based play will get owned because broodlords suck against this (and you can't get nearly enough out in time against this fast hive style), and mass roach gets owned by ling/infestor/spine. The upgrades are incredible too, just putting 5 banelings on your ramp doesnt work if 1 baneling doesnt kill a ling anymore. You can focus down people's bases so quickly with this style.It's literally just turtle on 2 base with spine/infestor so no sort of aggression can hurt you, then you move up your spines to protect you taking a third. Eventually, 6+ infestors with mass spines will secure a third, and then you get ultras and it's gg.I've started doing this after being extremely frustrated by playing against this style, I found nothing worked and the advice everyone gives of "just roach bust" or "just nydus" or "just drop" solely relies on the ling/infestor player simply being bad or not making enough spines. Now that I've started doing this, I haven't lost a single game yet (out of about 8 games played).Here's some reps where I did it, and badly. http://drop.sc/197897 (i eventually transitioned into broodlords, to bust his mass spine wall, so I had a pure bl/ultra/infestor crazy army. but once I had ultras out, I denied the opponent's 5th base, and even killed his 4th. it was only as close as it was because he got a clutch double fg and killed like 12 of my infestors all at once. he was a better player than me for sure though) http://drop.sc/197898 (didnt make enough spines. epic base trade where my ultra/ling army was just way more mobile than roach/hydra. i screwed up by not making enough spines and losing too many infestors though, and not enough ultras because i had to remake infestors) http://drop.sc/197899 (vs mutas, he had a lead but this style is just so epic i dont give a fuck how far ahead you are, bitch i get 3 bases and then its ultras gg) http://drop.sc/197900 (focused 3 hatches down) How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

Belial88 Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 5217 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-15 01:01:30 #18 In ZvT zergs stoped useing broods because marines can outrun you on the map ---> Zerg units are faster than terran bio, equals Broodlords are bad ZvZ. just like that. better stay roach/hydra/infestor



That's not true, broodlord/corruptor/infestor/queen is still the dream composition in ZvT, and if you stay on lair tech a long time (like the classic ling/bane/muta style) it's still a better idea to skip ultras.



, ultras are better seen as a sort of tier 2.5 unit - you make them when teching to broodlords would get you killed because they take so long (ultras are cheaper and come about a minute quicker than broodlords, and are good as support units in small numbers with a large t2 army whereas just 1-3 broodlords is not really helpful at all), but staying on lair tech against the ~160 terran push is uncomfortable.



As blade5555 said, ultras are really good to cover that vulnerable timing against terrans who take a quick third (going ultras is not that great against terrans who stay on 2 base longer though, like they did a few months to a year ago) so you can transition into broodlords. it's a really nice way to play if you prefer a quick hive, ultras, macro passive play, against fast third terrans, instead of an aggressive late hive, longer lair stage play. eg, the 8-12 mutas double ups into quick hive or recent infestor play, as opposed to the classic ling/bane/muta, leenock/line/suhosin style ling/muta double ups, double spire style, etc.



Broodlords are amazing in standard/classic ZvZ, you just have to know how to use them (most people don't). Standard ZvZ right now is fast third, roach/hydra, max out and aggression into roach/hydra/infestor (anyone who goes straight to infestors dies, if not goes roach/hydra/infestor even before maxing out). Then, when both players are maxed on roach/hydra, you go towards 4 base roach/hydra/infestor, and it's a very back and forth game that usually ends with a clutch FG or bad positioning or over aggressiveness or good multi-pronged attacks, but if it doesn't, it then goes to 3/3 roach/hydra/infestor, and then if it still doesn't end, both players slowly start to incorporate a couple broodlords (just maxing on broods will die to mass corruptors, so you need the roach/hydra/infestor to support small numbers of broods that allow you to siege defensive positions). Eventually, the game turns into broodlord/infestor (keyword infestor to stop mass roach attacks), and then eventually, pure broodlord/corruptor (12+ broodlords owns any numbers of infestors, and FG is not that good against 10+ corruptors, and roaches no longer work when both players have split the map on 6+ bases with 30+ spines).



You don't see games go like this often, I dont think any GSL game has gotten to that stage, but that IS how the game is 'supposed' to go. But with this new style of play, you will lose your entire roach army to ultra/ling/infestor deathball, and you can't afford to get 10+ broodlords in near enough time. Standard play gets broodlords in a VERY slow, VERY gradual process (first it's ling/bane, then roach/ling, then mass roach, then roach/hydra, then roach/hydra max out, then roach/hydra/infestor, then 3/3, then just a very, very few number of broodlords, then roach/broodlord/infestor, then bl/infestor, then bl/corruptor/infestor, then pure bl/corruptor, and if you tech too quickly at any given time you just flat out die in whats a very, very aggressive match-up in the first place) so this sort of play just dominates it.





Anyways, nice guide. I was wondering why my upgrades were so late, so you go 1/1 then lair. nice to know, especially the gas timings. That's not true, broodlord/corruptor/infestor/queen is still the dream composition in ZvT, and if you stay on lair tech a long time (like the classic ling/bane/muta style) it's still a better idea to skip ultras. As I state in my ZvT guide , ultras are better seen as a sort of tier 2.5 unit - you make them when teching to broodlords would get you killed because they take so long (ultras are cheaper and come about a minute quicker than broodlords, and are good as support units in small numbers with a large t2 army whereas just 1-3 broodlords is not really helpful at all), but staying on lair tech against the ~160 terran push is uncomfortable.As blade5555 said, ultras are really good to cover that vulnerable timing against terrans who take a quick third (going ultras is not that great against terrans who stay on 2 base longer though, like they did a few months to a year ago) so you can transition into broodlords. it's a really nice way to play if you prefer a quick hive, ultras, macro passive play, against fast third terrans, instead of an aggressive late hive, longer lair stage play. eg, the 8-12 mutas double ups into quick hive or recent infestor play, as opposed to the classic ling/bane/muta, leenock/line/suhosin style ling/muta double ups, double spire style, etc.Broodlords are amazing in standard/classic ZvZ, you just have to know how to use them (most people don't). Standard ZvZ right now is fast third, roach/hydra, max out and aggression into roach/hydra/infestor (anyone who goes straight to infestors dies, if not goes roach/hydra/infestor even before maxing out). Then, when both players are maxed on roach/hydra, you go towards 4 base roach/hydra/infestor, and it's a very back and forth game that usually ends with a clutch FG or bad positioning or over aggressiveness or good multi-pronged attacks, but if it doesn't, it then goes to 3/3 roach/hydra/infestor, and then if it still doesn't end, both players slowly start to incorporate a couple broodlords (just maxing on broods will die to mass corruptors, so you need the roach/hydra/infestor to support small numbers of broods that allow you to siege defensive positions). Eventually, the game turns into broodlord/infestor (keyword infestor to stop mass roach attacks), and then eventually, pure broodlord/corruptor (12+ broodlords owns any numbers of infestors, and FG is not that good against 10+ corruptors, and roaches no longer work when both players have split the map on 6+ bases with 30+ spines).You don't see games go like this often, I dont think any GSL game has gotten to that stage, but that IS how the game is 'supposed' to go. But with this new style of play, you will lose your entire roach army to ultra/ling/infestor deathball, and you can't afford to get 10+ broodlords in near enough time. Standard play gets broodlords in a VERY slow, VERY gradual process (first it's ling/bane, then roach/ling, then mass roach, then roach/hydra, then roach/hydra max out, then roach/hydra/infestor, then 3/3, then just a very, very few number of broodlords, then roach/broodlord/infestor, then bl/infestor, then bl/corruptor/infestor, then pure bl/corruptor, and if you tech too quickly at any given time you just flat out die in whats a very, very aggressive match-up in the first place) so this sort of play just dominates it.Anyways, nice guide. I was wondering why my upgrades were so late, so you go 1/1 then lair. nice to know, especially the gas timings. How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100

Indrium Profile Joined November 2010 United States 2222 Posts #19 Hmm cool. I'd been trying to replicate this on my own so this is going to be very helpful. Thanks again Blade.

gongshow41 Profile Joined May 2011 Korea (South) 49 Posts Last Edited: 2012-06-15 02:08:46 #20 NHSFreaky showed this style in both of his opening ZvZ's early on in this seasons GSTL. The two games he does this are free as they are the first games of the match, for anyone else looking for more games to watch of this style. One of the best things these games show is his ability to fungal roaches within range of spine crawlers, while the roaches are not able to fire back, so cost efficient it hurts, and softens them up enough that lings can omnom threw them at a better rate and with better cost of trade.

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