Hans-Georg Maaßen is the former President of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution in Germany. Mr. Maaßen caused a controversy after the Chemnitz protests in 2018, in which it was said that an angry mob had “hunted” foreign-looking people. In an interview with Bild, Mr. Maaßen questioned the existence of any evidence for such “hunts”, and stated that his security agency had not in fact seen any such evidence. He was eased out of his position as a result of his deviation from the official narrative.

The video below is a recent interview with Hans-Georg Maaßen from Hungarian TV. Many thanks to MissPiggy for the translation, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:

Video transcript:

00:00 Mr. Maaßen, when the borders were opened for

00:04 hundreds of thousands of people in early September 2015,

00:08 you had chills, as you described in an interview. What did you think back then?

00:13 I thought I was responsible in the country for countering terrorism, extremism and I saw

00:20 that we had already had so much trouble fending off Islamist terrorism.

00:25 I imagined it would be even harder.

00:29 I also thought about the integration problems.

00:33 For many years I was responsible for immigration policy

00:37 and national foreigner law in the Federal Ministry of the Interior.

00:41 At the time, I invented the rules for integration myself.

00:44 I had already realized that such a large number of people can not be easily integrated in Germany.

00:51 You say it is not a problem from 2015. The same mistakes made

00:56 in 2015 continue to be made. What do you mean?

01:01 In 2015, more than 10,000 people a day were entering Germany. That’s not the case at the moment.

01:11 The number of asylum seekers or persons entering Germany illegally

01:16 is now much smaller. It is about 700-900 people,

01:21 but the sluice is still open even if fewer are coming.

01:25 Concerning immigration, I see pressure building on other continents.

01:30 From the Middle East, from Africa to Europe, to Germany,

01:34 and from my point of view, the necessary steps have not

01:38 been taken to minimise this immigration pressure;

01:41 to prevent these people coming to us. I also foresee, with great concern,

01:45 that perhaps this summer or in the fall or even next year, this immense

01:49 immigration pressure building up, resulting in

01:52 significantly more people coming to Europe; to Germany. I just don’t see precautions being taken.

02:00 I didn’t see any precautions taken in 2015. Despite deals

02:06 being made with Turkey, and other agreements being negotiated,

02:11 I still don’t see any of the necessary arrangements needed to protect Europe

02:15 or Germany from so many people coming to us.

02:20 What will be the necessary measures?

02:24 It has to be said quite categorically that the border protection measures

02:28 on the external borders of Europe need to function properly.

02:33 This means that only those people can come to Germany, to Europe,

02:38 who have a right to asylum and who are eligible for residency.

02:44 Not economic refugees; the use of the term is not in a derogatory manner,

02:48 but it is just not possible for us to take in

02:52 all the people in the world. And that’s where external borders have to work.

02:55 I don’t see the external borders functioning.

02:58 Until now I haven’t seen that the EU, Frontex or even national border authorities

03:03 are taking the necessary measures to protect Europe,

03:08 or the Italian and Greek islands and thus indirectly protecting Germany.

03:13 At the time in 2015, you were already pointing out that

03:17 terrorists could come to Germany with the refugees.

03:20 However, the official narrative was that there was no connection between migration and terrorism.

03:28 What was your initial assessment based on?

03:33 Well, at that time, I assumed that among those many, many thousands

03:37 of young people, predominately young men,

03:41 coming to us from the Arab states, from Syria, from Iraq

03:45 or even from Afghanistan, of course, there would be people

03:49 among them who fought for ISIS or for other jihadist terrorist groups.

03:53 During that time, I didn’t say that I was certain

03:58 that these people had orders to come and commit terror. Meanwhile,

04:02 we know some had, but it is certainly a huge concern

04:07 for us when so many thousands of people arrive including many

04:12 who have experience in killing, experience in terror, and

04:17 a jihadist ideology in their hearts. That was the major concern

04:20 I had at that time and with these considerations,

04:23 I also took every opportunity to express that.

04:27 Could Islamist attacks have been prevented if the government had taken the warnings seriously?

04:34 I don’t want to speculate. The situation took the course it took,

04:38 and I don’t know if it could have been different.

04:43 At any rate, we prevented a whole series of terrorist attacks in Germany.

04:47 I believe the ministry that I directed at that time,

04:51 the Federal Constitutional Protection Agency, and the police

04:55 have done a very good job. Things could have been very different.

04:59 Unfortunately, not much thought is given to that, because

05:03 everyone is glad that there weren’t dozens or hundreds of terror victims.

05:08 I’m glad that at least during my time when I headed the ministry, with the exception

05:12 of the attack on the Breitscheidplatz in Berlin,

05:15 there were no major terrorist attacks.

05:19 How many threats were there, or were there any threats at all?

05:26 There were very many threats. We had at times two to three messages per day

05:31 about possible terrorist attacks or well-founded suspicions that had to be processed.

05:36 The burden of responsibility for my staff was immense

05:41 when trying to determine the validity of the leads. For instance,

05:46 to determine whether ISIS created a hoax in order to mislead us,

05:51 or whether there was a real threat with real leads which needed to be investigated.

05:57 It was a very large responsibility that my staff were carrying.

06:03 Why wasn’t the information provided by the national security services taken seriously

06:07 in the political sphere? —That’s a question

06:10 you really should address to the politicians, but I can give you my perspective on that.

06:15 Naturally politicians don’t see everything through the same lens as the national security head.

06:21 They have different perspectives to consider. They have economic issues to consider.

06:27 They also consider foreign policy issues, and then have to

06:31 decide for themselves which aspects are more important

06:34 to them. Internal security, foreign policy and maybe party politics —

06:38 you name it. The political sphere in Germany decided

06:42 the way they decided. As the national security head, of course,

06:46 I would have wished for a different decision from my perspective.

06:49 Thomas de Maizière writes in his new book that refusing entry to the refugees

06:54 in 2015 would have been possible, but that would have

07:00 created ugly images. Better to risk security than risk

07:04 creating ugly pictures. Is that how it should be understood?

07:07 The wording of that statement disappointed me when I read his book.

07:12 I have a really good relationship with Minister de Maizière. I appreciate

07:16 his personal qualities as well as his professional qualities.

07:19 I believe there is hardly any person who has left as many footprints

07:24 in German domestic politics as Mr. de Maizière has.

07:30 On the other hand, this statement was a disappointment

07:36 because of my long-time experience as security director and as lawyer.

07:41 I consider maintaining, enforcing law and order to be first and foremost,

07:45 as well as being in the interest and for the good of the people.

07:49 Even though the images are ugly, and perhaps especially in the situation

07:53 that produces ugly images, because the rule of law

07:56 is exemplified when — especially when — it is enforced by politicians

08:00 in situations that produce ugly images.

08:04 In 2012 there were 3,800 Salafists in Germany. Today there are 11,500.

08:09 How many of them are capable of attacks?

08:15 Amongst these 11,500 Salafists, there are many people who count

08:20 as having an Islamic terrorist potential; people believed capable

08:25 of committing terrorist attacks. That’s currently estimated

08:29 to be over 2,000 people. And of these around 700 people

08:33 are terrorist perpetrators. Islamist terrorist threats. These persons are watched, monitored,

08:38 and are under surveillance using different methods.

08:43 With this very large number of 2,000 potential Islamist terrorists, it is easy to imagine

08:50 that even a good national security service and well-equipped

08:57 police force can’t keep an eye on every person in sight.

09:01 Let alone be able to understand how these people tick,

09:04 what is going on in their heads or what they are planning.

09:08 How many of them came to Germany via the asylum route?

09:12 Perhaps without papers or with fictitious names?

09:15 Well, I can’t tell you how many of these 11,500 people came to us

09:19 as asylum seekers in recent years. However, it is important to understand

09:24 that the problem of Islamist terrorism in Germany wouldn’t exist without immigration.

09:31 The vast majority of people considered to be potential terrorists

09:35 are people with a migration background.

09:39 We speak in German of the four Ms, which are basically the factors that

09:43 result in a person’s becoming a member of this category.

09:48 These are young Men with a Migration background, Muslims,

09:52 and Mishaps in school, work or private life.

09:56 So that means migration and Islamist terrorism are connected. This needs to be discussed

10:02 and recognized as a problem in order to solve it.

10:09 The police, as you have mentioned, have already

10:13 foiled several terrorist attacks this past year.

10:17 Precisely six in the last two years, as I have read. Have the police become more alert?

10:23 Actually, I think we prevented even more terrorist attacks.

10:27 To be precise, prevented terror planning by countering preemptively.

10:30 I view as one of the greater successes we had last year, in June, the prevention

10:35 of the planning of bio-warfare using a natural poison in Cologne.

10:41 An individual was planning to detonate a Ricin bomb.

10:46 The police and the intelligence services are well equipped in Germany.

10:51 I won’t say that they are extraordinarily equipped; they have made

10:54 significant improvements in recent years in terms

10:57 of personnel and as far as performance quality is concerned.

11:01 However, the challenges the security authorities are faced with are due

11:06 to the sheer number of cases, and the technology used by our counterparts, it is stunning.

11:15 This sometimes results in police and intelligence agencies operating at their limits.

11:23 More than 200,000 refugees are required to leave the country. Why aren’t the deportations working?

11:30 There’s a whole list of reasons. Starting with the fact that

11:34 the countries of origin are often unwilling to take these people back.

11:38 This is partly due to economic reasons. An asylum seeker in Germany

11:42 transfers money back home which has two benefits.

11:47 On the one hand there is foreign exchange, and on the other hand

11:51 a person who is possibly otherwise unemployed is a burden

11:54 on the domestic labor market or is prone to delinquency, which ultimately

11:58 does harm to his homeland. That’s why they are rarely willing

12:03 to allow these people to re-enter. Another reason is that

12:07 we have very very complicated deportation safeguards.

12:10 Someone in Germany who has German children, is married to a German, or someone

12:14 who may face inhuman, degrading treatment,

12:20 punishment or potentially face the death penalty; he / she is protected from deportation.

12:27 This then frustrates to a large extent the authorities responsible

12:31 for deportation. In addition, there are also so-called NGOs

12:36 that deliberately prevent deportation by helping the deportee hide and so forth.

12:45 Overall one must say that deportation policy in Germany is unfortunately a disaster. Then again,

12:49 Germany is not the only Western European country having difficulty dealing with this problem.

12:54 Is there a deportation industry, as Mr. Dobrindt has said?

12:58 There are a lot of people who earn money off of asylum seekers

13:02 and preventing their deportation. It just needs to be said openly.

13:05 Every asylum seeker costs the state a lot of money, but the money goes into

13:10 the pockets of certain people who make money with them.

13:15 Due to family reunification, many more refugees will be coming

13:19 in the next few years. Their integration would require

13:22 the additional infrastructure of a German city the size of Kassel.

13:27 Is integration of so many actually possible?

13:33 Integration is possible provided there is a proper legal framework.

13:38 In addition to that, encouraging people to be willing to integrate

13:44 or to allow integration. Integration shouldn’t just be requested, but must be demanded.

13:49 This is the requirement that must be expected

13:54 from every foreigner who comes to us. My concern is that there is integration,

13:59 but not an integration into German society.

14:03 Rather it is an integration into Arab society,

14:06 into Salafist society, and into Turkish society in Germany.

14:09 This creates parallel societies, and in my opinion every necessary

14:14 step must be taken to prevent this.

14:18 How has the social climate in Germany changed?

14:22 From my point of view, in recent years it has changed for the worse.

14:26 As President of the Federal Constitutional Protection Agency, it gave me cause for concern.

14:31 Especially due to the fact that many people in Germany

14:37 among the middle class who normally belong to the parties CDU or SPD

14:43 turned away from these parties. Instead they supported or voted for

14:47 the new party AfD, Alternative for Germany, a right-wing party.

14:51 This is a renunciation of established parties and transition to

14:56 a whole new force. This is something we have already seen

15:02 in other Western European countries such as the Netherlands, Italy or even France.

15:07 But this also leads to a breakup of the present party system.

15:12 It could also be seen as an erosion of trust in the ability of the present party system

15:18 to function, and a turning away from this democracy.

15:24 This development still fills me with concern, especially because it was not prevented and continues.

15:31 Now many people are hesitant to express their opinion freely, because they are afraid

15:35 of being labelled “right-wing”. Are you as well?

15:39 No, I don’t worry about being labeled right-wing. However,

15:44 it does concern me that many people, for example, those who approach me

15:49 to say that they agree with what I’ve done, with what I’ve said, and tell me that they support me.

15:54 For instance, when I go to a restaurant, strangers compliment me on my attitude,

15:59 and yet these people don’t dare to utter it otherwise.

16:05 I think that’s a pity, and it reminds me of my own family biography.

16:10 Recently I was listening to a tape recording that I made in 1980

16:15 of my uncle recounting his experience from the time of 1933 to 1945.

16:19 My grandfather was mistreated by the Nazis.

16:22 My uncle had been persecuted by them. Everything he said conjures up

16:26 the memories of totalitarianism and opinion dictatorship, which is still

16:31 possible even today. I’m not saying this is the case in Germany, but that it must be prevented.

16:36 Therefore we must have the courage to say things that others don’t like.

16:41 Does political correctness prevent that? Why else

16:45 would people be afraid to express their opinion freely?

16:49 It could be due to leadership. I’ve said to myself, if I’m not able to

16:54 express my opinion freely, then how can I expect that from my staff?

17:00 My expectation is that leaders in business, in the administration,

17:05 in the government should possess enough backbone to express their position.

17:11 How dangerous do you consider the mosque communities?

17:15 Well, among the many mosque communities in Germany there are several so-called back-alley mosques.

17:23 By that I mean, mosques led by self-proclaimed imams who usually

17:28 belong to Salafism or some other form of radical Islam which they preach.

17:33 In Germany there is no state control of religious societies and

17:38 this ultimately has led to the fact that we have a wild growth of radical

17:44 Muslim mosque communities and in these mosque communities, young people are definitely radicalised.

17:52 And sometimes recruited?

17:56 And sometimes recruited for radical Islamism. You could say that the Salafist mosque communities

18:01 are a kind of gateway station which leads to jihadism.

18:06 What do you think of the proposed legislation to withdraw German passports

18:10 from terrorists returning from the Middle East?

18:14 I think it is right and important to have such a law. In fact,

18:18 I had already demanded it. Now it is a little too late, in my opinion.

18:23 We needed to have this law in place before these people went to join ISIS,

18:27 and not when they want to come back to Germany.

18:32 Couldn’t it be applied retroactively?

18:36 According to my understanding of the law, it is not possible to adopt such a rule retroactively.

18:41 Should other constitutional lawyers consider it a possibility then that would be good in my view.

18:47 I suspect there would be vigorous legal objections.

18:51 And what happens to the jihadists or the terrorists who

18:55 could now possibly return to Germany? Can it be prevented somehow?

19:00 Generally, anyone with German citizenship, no matter who, has the right to re-enter Germany.

19:09 If they return to Germany and are considered a potential risk,

19:13 the security authorities of the Federal Office

19:16 for the Protection of the Constitution and the police authorities

19:19 will handle the situation. This would be a considerable burden.

19:22 It also quite dangerous if these people harbour a motivation in their heads

19:27 that security authorities aren’t able recognise.

19:32 Following that information, how do see the current security situation for 2019 in Germany?

19:39 I think the security situation is stable. I think the security authorities,

19:44 intelligence services or even the police

19:48 have the security situation under control as well as possible.

19:52 When I say “as well as possible” it means risks remain.

19:55 Those risks are the many thousands of people we don’t know of

19:59 and can’t see what is going on in their heads.

20:02 Those at their computers in the evening, communicating

20:06 With other jihadists or perhaps downloading bomb instructions

20:10 to commit an attack the next day. I think we are a safe country

20:14 when compared with many other nations of the world.

20:19 However, the concern is that these risks are occurring

20:23 and that shouldn’t have been allowed to happen.

20:26 Even today, every second refugee comes to Germany without valid papers.

20:30 What kind of security risk does that present?

20:35 Well, if a person comes to Germany without valid papers we don’t know who this person really is.

20:44 We can’t rely on information they give us. We’ve had people

20:47 who claimed their name was Abo Coca-Cola or

20:50 Ronny Ice Cube requesting permission to enter Germany.

20:54 Even if the database or the database of my ministry

20:59 at the time was good and had very good exchange with

21:03 all European intelligence agencies. And our databases are full.

21:07 So even if we have the name of a certain person and know

21:10 that certain people are a danger, none of that helps

21:13 when that person enters Germany with a fictitious name.

21:17 Therefore we have a huge interest in making sure that

21:21 people coming to Germany have a name that is corresponds to valid travel documents.

21:29 According to current statistics, the number of citizens who fear becoming a victim

21:35 of a crime or a terrorist attack rose enormously in 2018.

21:40 A sense of security is not reflected in those statistics. How do you explain that?

21:49 I think this is partly because many people perceive the security situation

21:54 personally. It could be through the television

21:58 news coverage, newspaper articles or through experience of their own.

22:02 That’s one way it is perceived differently from the statistics.

22:06 Secondly, I think it could simply be because many people notice the changes

22:11 in the streetscape, in the neighbourhood, and

22:16 perceive it as a personal threat. These personal threats

22:21 are then reflected in the fact that these individuals may choose to

22:26 vote for the AFD or other parties not previously in the Bundestag.

22:31 Another way these people are expressing their anxiety is

22:36 by equipping themselves with irritant sprayers or installing alarm systems and so forth.

22:43 What do you think the future holds? Monitoring everywhere? What does Germany look like in 2030?

22:57 2030 is of course very far into the future. Honestly,

23:01 I’m not thinking that far out, but as an intelligence officer it is necessary

23:06 to imagine possible scenarios and create forecasts.

23:12 From my point of view the decisive indicator for a prognosis would be:

23:18 What does Germany look like by the end of this year or in three years

23:22 if we don’t change anything; if we just maintain the status quo?

23:27 What worries me is the immense refugee pressure from the Middle East,

23:31 North Africa, and that many more people will come to us.

23:35 If we continue to try to accommodate them, to provide for them,

23:40 that perhaps the German economy won’t work as it did in the last few years.

23:45 This will result in a significant financial burden for everyone.

23:51 Crime and terrorism would continue to increase even though ISIS has been defeated

23:58 in Iraq, they are still there in Iraq. So we have to assume that ISIS

24:03 will continue to plan in Germany and other parts of western Europe.

24:08 Taking all that into consideration, we can expect more terror attacks,

24:13 increased criminality, and increased insecurity among citizens

24:18 within the next three years. People will no longer feel comfortable in their own

24:22 Communities; they will no longer feel understood

24:27 or represented by the political sphere, which could lead to radicalisation.

24:31 We have experienced it in other Western European nations and

24:34 it also led relatively quickly, in some nations, to the government being voted out.