Lakona Profile Joined September 2010 Canada 110 Posts Last Edited: 2013-02-20 22:53:39 #1 Edit: Did some testing with variations of this build and added the results. The initial 13 gas + 2nd gas variation was the least efficient in every way, no reason to ever do that. Added the versions that are worth doing to the "Build Variations" section. Horrifying: considered the potential for a "macro" version!]



Hullo. Masters WoL Terran here, rank 1 Diamond HotS but it refuses to promote me for whatever reason. Rude. Anyway, I've been playing around with this TvZ allin to great amusement. I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of it. Thought others might find it entertaining.



BASIC OUTLINE



Basically, you mine just enough gas to get double reactor factories and an armory on one base, then you pull out of gas and cut SCVs on minimum saturation (18), and just pump constant hellbats.



You arrive at their base with an initial wave of 8 hellbats and a few marines around the 7:00 mark.



It's hilarious.



BUILD VARIATIONS



Allin Variation - Gas First, No 2nd Gas



This version has basically zero follow through, but it packs the hardest punch at the earliest time. You arrive with 8 hellbats + 1 rine @ 6:40, or 12 hellbats + 1 rine @ 7:20. It's debatable whether it's better to go with the first 8 sooner or wait for the 12, but either way, in this version you're getting the most the soonest.



10 depot

12 gas

13 rax

16 fact, orbital, rine

17 reactor, depot

19 2nd fact, 2nd reactor

Cut SCVs @ 19 supply (18 total SCVs + 1 rine)

@ 100 gas -> armory + pull out of gas



Macro Variation - 13 Gas, No 2nd Gas, CC



This version is slightly less potent in its impact (you end up with 8 hellbats + 2 rines arriving @ 7:20, a full production round behind the Allin Variation), but you don't have to cut as many SCVs and you end up with an extra CC to aid in transition. With the potential to make double reactor widow mines to hold any counterattack, the follow through that makes the most sense to me would be taking a quick third CC (once the attack has clearly failed and you are no longer trading efficiently - continue pumping hellbats up until that point, of course).



10 depot

12 rax

13 gas

15 rine + orbital

16 depot

18 fact

19 reactor

20 CC

22 2nd fact, 2nd reactor

26 depot (after first set of helions)

@ 100 gas -> armory + pull out of gas + cut SCV production temporarily while pumping hellbats



EXECUTION



On two player maps, no need to scout. Four player maps, just scout with your first two helions.



Denying their scouting is obviously super important. Preferably place your rax/factories at difficult to spot locations - not at the edges of your base where OLs are likely to come (keep your rines at these edges until you move out), not at the front where lings can poke (depot walloff).



Send your first rine to the outer edge of your natural expansion, deny them vision of whether or not you have expanded if possible.



Obviously, if they scout no expansion, they're going to be expecting some shenanigans. But the possibility of this build is not really on their radar yet.



Move out with your rines at about the time you start your first full set of four helions so that they meet up with everything else at the proper time.



If they scout no expansion, they'll know you're teching or something, so you might as well clear watchtowers with your first helions. If they don't get to see whether or not you have expanded, better to keep your helions hidden until you're ready to move out, so they may simply assume an expand.



Key priority is doing economic damage. If you can get a few good crippling hits on their drones (which, incidentally, is not terribly difficult with the amount of hellbats in your possession), their production will no longer be able to keep up with yours.



POSSIBLE SCENARIOS



1) They have no roach warren completed upon your arrival.

Instant GG. There is literally, literally nothing they can do. Laugh maniacally, drop mules, collect free win.



2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.

You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary.



3) They do the 10 roach pressure build.

This is the only time I have lost with this build. You can hold their attack with the amount of hellbats you have, but this lets them know exactly what's up and they can continue to produce roaches while you're stuck at home defending, and they should be able to hold it off in the end.



REPLAYS



[These replays are of the old 2 gas, super inefficient version of the build. Check above for proper versions. They still illustrate the general principle, however.]



http://drop.sc/305927

Vs [USAR]usNEUX on Howling Peak

This dude makes a lot of roaches. TOO BAD HELIONS BEAT THEM

(The key is getting a crippling hit on the economy - their production won't be able to keep up.)



http://drop.sc/305926

Vs [NEX]Healing on Korhal City

He scouts the factory (this is why you don't put it at front). He even sees my units move out because I don't even bother to clear the watch tower. He has a roach warren. He still loses.



http://drop.sc/305928

Vs SkyDreameROk on Daybreak

This is what happens when there is no roach warren. Dude thinks he can defend with a spine and some queens and I'm all like LOL #YOLO #HELLBATS



CONCLUSION



I'm going to go pass out from sleep deprivation now. Um, have fun. Did some testing with variations of this build and added the results. The initial 13 gas + 2nd gas variation was the least efficient in every way, no reason to ever do that. Added the versions that are worth doing to the "Build Variations" section. Horrifying: considered the potential for a "macro" version!]Hullo. Masters WoL Terran here, rank 1 Diamond HotS but it refuses to promote me for whatever reason. Rude. Anyway, I've been playing around with this TvZ allin to great amusement. I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of it. Thought others might find it entertaining.Basically, you mine just enough gas to get double reactor factories and an armory on one base, then you pull out of gas and cut SCVs on minimum saturation (18), and just pump constant hellbats.You arrive at their base with an initial wave of 8 hellbats and a few marines around the 7:00 mark.It's hilarious.Allin Variation - Gas First, No 2nd GasThis version has basically zero follow through, but it packs the hardest punch at the earliest time. You arrive with 8 hellbats + 1 rine @ 6:40, or 12 hellbats + 1 rine @ 7:20. It's debatable whether it's better to go with the first 8 sooner or wait for the 12, but either way, in this version you're getting the most the soonest.10 depot12 gas13 rax16 fact, orbital, rine17 reactor, depot19 2nd fact, 2nd reactorCut SCVs @ 19 supply (18 total SCVs + 1 rine)@ 100 gas -> armory + pull out of gasMacro Variation - 13 Gas, No 2nd Gas, CCThis version is slightly less potent in its impact (you end up with 8 hellbats + 2 rines arriving @ 7:20, a full production round behind the Allin Variation), but you don't have to cut as many SCVs and you end up with an extra CC to aid in transition. With the potential to make double reactor widow mines to hold any counterattack, the follow through that makes the most sense to me would be taking a quick third CC (once the attack has clearly failed and you are no longer trading efficiently - continue pumping hellbats up until that point, of course).10 depot12 rax13 gas15 rine + orbital16 depot18 fact19 reactor20 CC22 2nd fact, 2nd reactor26 depot (after first set of helions)@ 100 gas -> armory + pull out of gas + cut SCV production temporarily while pumping hellbatsOn two player maps, no need to scout. Four player maps, just scout with your first two helions.Denying their scouting is obviously super important. Preferably place your rax/factories at difficult to spot locations - not at the edges of your base where OLs are likely to come (keep your rines at these edges until you move out), not at the front where lings can poke (depot walloff).Send your first rine to the outer edge of your natural expansion, deny them vision of whether or not you have expanded if possible.Obviously, if they scout no expansion, they're going to be expecting some shenanigans. But the possibility of this build is not really on their radar yet.Move out with your rines at about the time you start your first full set of four helions so that they meet up with everything else at the proper time.If they scout no expansion, they'll know you're teching or something, so you might as well clear watchtowers with your first helions. If they don't get to see whether or not you have expanded, better to keep your helions hidden until you're ready to move out, so they may simply assume an expand.Key priority is doing economic damage. If you can get a few good crippling hits on their drones (which, incidentally, is not terribly difficult with the amount of hellbats in your possession), their production will no longer be able to keep up with yours.1) They have no roach warren completed upon your arrival.Instant GG. There is literally, literally nothing they can do. Laugh maniacally, drop mules, collect free win.2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary.3) They do the 10 roach pressure build.This is the only time I have lost with this build. You can hold their attack with the amount of hellbats you have, but this lets them know exactly what's up and they can continue to produce roaches while you're stuck at home defending, and they should be able to hold it off in the end.[These replays are of the old 2 gas, super inefficient version of the build. Check above for proper versions. They still illustrate the general principle, however.]Vs [USAR]usNEUX on Howling PeakThis dude makes a lot of roaches. TOO BAD HELIONS BEAT THEM(The key is getting a crippling hit on the economy - their production won't be able to keep up.)Vs [NEX]Healing on Korhal CityHe scouts the factory (this is why you don't put it at front). He even sees my units move out because I don't even bother to clear the watch tower. He has a roach warren. He still loses.Vs SkyDreameROk on DaybreakThis is what happens when there is no roach warren. Dude thinks he can defend with a spine and some queens and I'm all like LOL #YOLO #HELLBATSI'm going to go pass out from sleep deprivation now. Um, have fun.

LOLItsRyann Profile Joined April 2011 England 503 Posts #2 That write up is amazing xD I'm a Z player, but I HAVE to go unranked and try this out. Hahaha, sounds so fun xD EG<3

Dirkinity Profile Joined November 2012 Germany 409 Posts #3 Too bad 90% of the Time you have to play TvT on Ladder.

Saumure Profile Joined February 2012 France 404 Posts #4 This only works because hellbats are the counter to roaches.

Tsubbi Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7839 Posts #5 wouldnt put too much effort into hellbat guides lol

Rowrin Profile Joined September 2011 United States 277 Posts #6 Ya know, since this is an all in, you might as well go all the way with it. With mule income I think you can afford to pull 4 scvs for repair.



Although, this is pretty similar to the marauder-hellion-scv 7:30 all-in in wings. Basically, the first 4 marauders are being traded for the extra factory and double techlabs for a reactor (in terms of gas cost) and the 2nd rax for the second refinery. I wonder how they compare. Going to have to test it later.

LimeNade Profile Blog Joined February 2010 United States 2124 Posts #7 Seems incredibly easy to just beat it if the zerg knows how to micro and spread creep. Just ling surround spread banelings out and just charge in with like 2 queens behind and ez pz but seems the level of players u r facing aren't too great if thats a free win. JD, need I say more? :D

Bagi Profile Joined August 2010 Germany 6789 Posts #8 On February 21 2013 03:01 Saumure wrote:

This only works because hellbats are the counter to roaches.

Yet he says roaches are the only counter to this... Hmm.



Microed roaches on creep should never lose to hellbats. Yet he says roaches are the only counter to this... Hmm.Microed roaches on creep should never lose to hellbats.

TheOnlyRedViper Profile Joined September 2012 Norway 20 Posts #9

I am going to try this in unranked right now!



(fuck you btw ) This is some nasty shit for a zerg player to deal with, Atleast for me.I am going to try this in unranked right now!(fuck you btw

Foxxan Profile Joined October 2004 Sweden 3425 Posts #10 banelings!!!

Umpteen Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United Kingdom 1566 Posts #11 For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:



Hellbats imba!

No they're not!

Maybe a slight nerf...

Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...

Techlab...

Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...

Broken...

Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?

Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...

Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...

This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...

You don't know jack about 20th century military ordnance.



The existence of a food chain is inescapable﻿ if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.

phrenzy Profile Joined October 2010 United Kingdom 477 Posts #12 Umpteen you forgot to add 'hitler' at the end, all internet roads of discussion always lead to one place.

DifuntO Profile Joined November 2011 Greece 2374 Posts #13 I think you can hold this easily with banelings but i'm not sure,i might have to test it. All I do is Stim.

Sissors Profile Joined March 2012 1395 Posts #14 Tbh I expect zerg can hold this with most builds, unless it really hits unscouted and with no significant amounts of roaches/spines. But at least for now people dont know the strat so they lose horribly.

emc Profile Joined September 2010 United States 3068 Posts #15 On February 21 2013 03:59 DifuntO wrote:

I think you can hold this easily with banelings but i'm not sure,i might have to test it.



I don't think you can. Any zerg who tries to react to this build with a baneling nest will probably lose. There is no efficient way to trade gas for mineral only units, especially when there is no cost efficient way to clean up the remainder with zerglings either. And the problem is the terran can keep affording 4 hellbats at once, 4 hellbats will decimate any amount of zerglings, and how many banelings does it take to kill 4 hellbats?



I think this may be a huge issue in pro play and may turn into what reapers were in WoL beta or what marineking did in GSL open 2 where he 2 raxed every time and fucked over the zergs meta.



How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build. I don't think you can. Any zerg who tries to react to this build with a baneling nest will probably lose. There is no efficient way to trade gas for mineral only units, especially when there is no cost efficient way to clean up the remainder with zerglings either. And the problem is the terran can keep affording 4 hellbats at once, 4 hellbats will decimate any amount of zerglings, and how many banelings does it take to kill 4 hellbats?I think this may be a huge issue in pro play and may turn into what reapers were in WoL beta or what marineking did in GSL open 2 where he 2 raxed every time and fucked over the zergs meta.How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build.

Ambre Profile Joined July 2011 France 415 Posts Last Edited: 2013-02-20 19:12:42 #16



Good job ! Thx for posting this. If it's as OP as it seems, spreading the build will make a patch come fasterGood job ! "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley

KaleoHun Profile Joined December 2011 Hungary 4 Posts #17

Another version:

Bagi Profile Joined August 2010 Germany 6789 Posts #18 On February 21 2013 04:08 emc wrote:

How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build.

I think it would affect TvP quite a bit. A lot of what makes mines + hellbats viable as support for bio is the fact that you don't actually need any separate techs for them, you can just slap a reactor on that factory (that would be usually used for scouting) and start producing these cheap units. Once you start adding barriers such as tech lab + upgrade requirement, it becomes a lot less viable considering these hellbats will be completely unupgraded anyway. You are better off spending your resources on more bio units, and we are back to WOL TvP. I think it would affect TvP quite a bit. A lot of what makes mines + hellbats viable as support for bio is the fact that you don't actually need any separate techs for them, you can just slap a reactor on that factory (that would be usually used for scouting) and start producing these cheap units. Once you start adding barriers such as tech lab + upgrade requirement, it becomes a lot less viable considering these hellbats will be completely unupgraded anyway. You are better off spending your resources on more bio units, and we are back to WOL TvP.

JDub Profile Joined December 2010 United States 975 Posts #19



Seems like a strong all-in, but I don't see how it should beat a player who makes a bunch of roaches and controls them well. On pretty much any map it should be possible to scout the lack of an expansion with an overlord, and just massing roaches should hold easily assuming you have a bit of creep spread and kite the hellbats with your roaches. 2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.

You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary.

It feels more like you are dependent on a Zerg with roaches not microing well (roaches are 2.92 speed on creep compared to hellbat 2.25, roaches are 4 range compared to hellbat 2). How are you supposed to kill off a roaching player who kites your hellbats? How are you supposed to "pull back" if the roaches are faster and can get free hits off as you retreat?



I see this getting a lot of free wins against unprepared Zergs, but losing to solid Zerg players (especially those who have seen it once before). It feels more like you are dependent on a Zerg with roaches not microing well (roaches are 2.92 speed on creep compared to hellbat 2.25, roaches are 4 range compared to hellbat 2). How are you supposed to kill off a roaching player who kites your hellbats? How are you supposed to "pull back" if the roaches are faster and can get free hits off as you retreat?I see this getting a lot of free wins against unprepared Zergs, but losing to solid Zerg players (especially those who have seen it once before).

emc Profile Joined September 2010 United States 3068 Posts Last Edited: 2013-02-20 19:35:08 #20 On February 21 2013 04:28 JDub wrote:

Seems like a strong all-in, but I don't see how it should beat a player who makes a bunch of roaches and controls them well. On pretty much any map it should be possible to scout the lack of an expansion with an overlord, and just massing roaches should hold easily assuming you have a bit of creep spread and kite the hellbats with your roaches.



Show nested quote +

2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.

You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary.

It feels more like you are dependent on a Zerg with roaches not microing well (roaches are 2.92 speed on creep compared to hellbat 2.25, roaches are 4 range compared to hellbat 2). How are you supposed to kill off a roaching player who kites your hellbats? How are you supposed to "pull back" if the roaches are faster and can get free hits off as you retreat?



I see this getting a lot of free wins against unprepared Zergs, but losing to solid Zerg players (especially those who have seen it once before). Seems like a strong all-in, but I don't see how it should beat a player who makes a bunch of roaches and controls them well. On pretty much any map it should be possible to scout the lack of an expansion with an overlord, and just massing roaches should hold easily assuming you have a bit of creep spread and kite the hellbats with your roaches.It feels more like you are dependent on a Zerg with roaches not microing well (roaches are 2.92 speed on creep compared to hellbat 2.25, roaches are 4 range compared to hellbat 2). How are you supposed to kill off a roaching player who kites your hellbats? How are you supposed to "pull back" if the roaches are faster and can get free hits off as you retreat?I see this getting a lot of free wins against unprepared Zergs, but losing to solid Zerg players (especially those who have seen it once before).



and it's still guess work at this point because we haven't seen a pro ZvT where the Z scouts it perfectly and reacts appropriately. It could be another WoL beta reaper build where the zerg can see it coming, but is always on the back foot of terran transitions. We just don't know until we see it unfold in pro play. and frankly, this build scares me because as mentioned here:



On February 21 2013 04:26 Bagi wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 21 2013 04:08 emc wrote:

How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build.

I think it would affect TvP quite a bit. A lot of what makes mines + hellbats viable as support for bio is the fact that you don't actually need any separate techs for them, you can just slap a reactor on that factory (that would be usually used for scouting) and start producing these cheap units. Once you start adding barriers such as tech lab + upgrade requirement, it becomes a lot less viable considering these hellbats will be completely unupgraded anyway. You are better off spending your resources on more bio units, and we are back to WOL TvP. I think it would affect TvP quite a bit. A lot of what makes mines + hellbats viable as support for bio is the fact that you don't actually need any separate techs for them, you can just slap a reactor on that factory (that would be usually used for scouting) and start producing these cheap units. Once you start adding barriers such as tech lab + upgrade requirement, it becomes a lot less viable considering these hellbats will be completely unupgraded anyway. You are better off spending your resources on more bio units, and we are back to WOL TvP.



it seems like hellbats need to remain as is to keep mech viable in TvP. and it's still guess work at this point because we haven't seen a pro ZvT where the Z scouts it perfectly and reacts appropriately. It could be another WoL beta reaper build where the zerg can see it coming, but is always on the back foot of terran transitions. We just don't know until we see it unfold in pro play. and frankly, this build scares me because as mentioned here:it seems like hellbats need to remain as is to keep mech viable in TvP.

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