Hello, My name is Airrows. IRL I am an experience designer, think of it like an UX designer not focused on Screens.



I have some questions and concerns about the the Mapping system and its interaction with the design of sextants.



Forum Context

I haven't used the forums too often so I'm not exactly sure where to put this. Grinding Gear Games staff, please let me know if it needs to go somewhere else. I have recently come back to the game with the release of 3.1 War for the Atlas and the Abyss league. I hadn't experienced the Fall of Oriath expansion until this league.

I'm sure there have been similar questions before as these systems have been in the game for a while, so please be patient with me.



Main Context

I want to say that that I really enjoyed the addition and variation of content that came with the addition of War for the Atlas and Fall of Oriath.



First, the diversity of the environments ranging from sunken reefs, climbing the lighthouse, the Cathedral rooftops, the Glided city of Oriath, and the transformation that it underwent during the campaign added both literal and figurative depth to the game and story. I thought the utilization of previous areas and characters in the second act was clever and it was intriguing to see the growth of certain characters (Yeena, etc) and Spoiler the demise of others (Nessa, Greust).



Second, the expansion of the map pool and the diversity of the map mechanics made me enjoy the act of mapping considerably more than I did in the past. The addition of Shaper and Elder maps was also quite a delight for me to experience due to both the thematic nature of what the map device was supposed to be as well as introducing new challenges. The design behind the map system make it stand out to me as a endgame system with its variety and complexity compared to other endgames systems such as Greater Rifts in Diablo 3, Raids and NightFalls in Destiny 2, New Game Plus/Arena in Victor Vran, as some examples.



Third, particularly pertaining to Abyss league. The addition of new items such as the Eye Jewels and Stygian Vise belt as bases was awesome for me. With unique mods that could only be rolled on Eye Jewels and their synergy and ability to promote build diversity by enabling one to supplement items, like the Sire of Shards which aren't particularly great, was excellent. This system also promoted variety and viability in my eyes. I do hope it will stay in some fashion as Path of Exile continues to update.



My Concern about Sextants

When I was first introduced to Sextants, I thought they were an intriguing system that would add to the variety and complexity of the mapping system. The ability to add another mod to maps while increasing both the density of monsters and the quantity/rarity of loot seemed enticing.



My Intention: I am not advocating for the removal of sextants as a system. Rather I believe they can be redesigned to fit more harmoniously in the game.



When I did accrue enough currency to start utilizing Sextants, a few elements of the system stood out to me.





• The system visually and thematically stick out as inconsistent.

• The system directly disincentives players from utilizing other systems in the game.

• The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling.

• The system of sextanting isn't engaging and slightly infuriating.





I will go in to each one in a bit more detail.



The system visually and thematically stick out as inconsistent.

In an experience, where everything can be modified from items, strongboxes, essences, maps, etc, Sextants stand out as going against both player expectation and thematic consistency. Sextants are a currency. This makes sense in the existing design and world of Path of Exile. However they are mechanically inconsistent when compared to every other currency in the game.



A sextant tool tip says:

Adds or rerolls a mod for a any map on the Atlas.



My first expectation of the item was to use it on a map. This expectation is consistent with every other currency in the game. You use an Orb of Alchemy on white items to make them Rare (Yellow). You use a Glassblower's Bauble on a Flash to improve its quality, etc. Once someone figures out or googles where to use the sextant it then offers another mechanical inconsistency. Sextants are the only currency in the game that provide a temporary effect. It applies a mod to all maps inside an circular area around the map it was applied to. That mod lasts for three uses. Note, none of this is listed anywhere in the tool tip. This also means that there is a sunken cost associated with Sextants. They are something that like the Zana map mods are paid for. However due to the infrequency of drops and the nature of their use, it makes me feel obligated to run sextanted maps after I have used a sextant.



In addition to its mechanical inconsistency, it also visually stands out. Literally with a red circle on my atlas. It gets worse with the addition of additional sextants it becomes what can only be described as a clusterfuc. Thanks to @Daknarian



When compared to the visual clarity of elder and shaper influences on a map which in my opinion are done quite elegantly. Sextants stick out like a sore thumb.



The system directly disincentives players from utilizing other systems in the game.

Sextants are a static mod. They can not be moved once placed. In order to take advantage of Sextants, it is important that all the maps that drop are maps that will be influenced by the sextant. This means that the system of sextants is actively encouraging me to NOT complete any other map on the same tier as the map that is primarily influenced by Sextants.As well as run the same map consecutively over and over again. This seems to directly take away from the concept of the addition of maps and variance that is introduced with the War of the Atlas. Not too long ago, you(GGG) released statistics about maps

" The important takeaway from this extended tier-divided popularity list is the total absence of maps introduced in War for the Atlas. This may be due to the familiarity of the other maps allowing for lower risk. It is of my belief that the system of sextanting is another important factor that is causing inequality in the maps that are getting run.

Another system that sextanting actively discourages me to use is the new Shaper and Elder influence system. One can not go get involved in the War of the Atlas because all my sextants are set up and the Shaper and Elder don't fit in it. If one invests the time to make the sextanted map they are running are influenced by Shaper and Elder, it also incentives players to not kill the elder because it would rid the sextant map of its elder influence.

It also makes players less likely to try different builds. If their sextants are on a linear map like Channel for example. It makes players less likely to try builds that perform better in open areas due to the fact they would need to finish running all their sextants and then reblock and sextant a different map to make the switch.

In this post,



The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling.

" Well, Airrows you seem like a downer on the sextant system. If you don't like it, you can choose to not use it.

This doesn't seem like a good argument to me for a few reasons.



First of all, if there is a designed system in a experience and your response is to refrain from using it because it directly inhibits your enjoyment of the rest of the experience. That's not a system that should belong in its current state in the experience.



Second, by not using sextants players are inherently crippling their experience as well. Sextants can make a bad map feel better. There are a lot of new maps that were introduced in the War for the Atlas that feel bad. Often times for me its because there is very little density. In my case, Coral Ruins Map , Courthouse Map , Moon Temple Map , and Tribunal Map feel terrible to me due to the space between large densities of monsters. Sextants can make that feel better. However due to the nature of the system being attached to the atlas sextants can drastically only help certain maps. Rather than fitting with the atlas's intention to promote variety.



Third, the currency advantage of sextants are staggering. It can literally double or triple your gain from maps. The accumulation of progression is an important part of any ARPG. In Path of Exile, currency can be argued to be a vital part of progression. It allows players to try new builds, experiment with viability, upgrade existing strategies, experience new scenarios, and just generally feel good. I read that previously there were nerfs to monster density in certain maps due to how much value they providing. These included Strand. One of the most shaped and sextanted maps previously if I am correct. If a system is so advantageous that it requires the nerfing of the experience for all players including ones not using the system then I believe there is something that should be re-examined about that system.



The system of sextanting isn't engaging and slightly infuriating.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the act of sextanting and attempting to sextant block a map is not engaging. It doesn't fit thematically into the work that Zana and I are doing trying to find Shaper and the Elder. It doesn't feel consistent with any other experience in the game. Due to the delayed nature of its effects compared to any other currency. The act of Sextanting feel bad and almost like throwing coins into a fountain with hopes that maybe a player's wish for a more enjoyable mapping experience will be answered sometime in the distant future. Because of its large upfront cost. It also has a large barrier to entry that makes a newer player ask do I try to get better gear now or do I try this sextant thing. It also encourages one to run the same map over and over again with the same mechanics and using the same approach. That's pretty boring.



Ending

Thank you to all of those who read until the end. If you have any suggestions please leave them in the thread below. I have some ideas in mind that could also help improve the system. I'll probably leave it to another day when I have time. Let me know, if there is something that I haven't considered when looking at the system of Sextants with regards to the rest of the game.



Cheers,



Airrows





Q/A & Discussions

Spoiler Wow Thank you all for the thoughts on sextants!



I'll try and post a response to everything that is a question or suggestion.

Additional thanks to @Oxlolz for the inspiration to use Spoilers to make things more readable.



" jerot



In terms of balancing maps by spacing, sextants should only affect the maps directly connected to where they are placed. They could use a similar system to the elder/shaper influence to show which maps are in range. Following around and highlighting the maps/paths will also reduce the visual clutter the current system has of dropping circles everywhere. Just to toss a few ideas out there on how they can improve the system. Sextant blocking needs to go, in return I'd suggest removing some of less desirable mods but making sextants a bit rarer to compensate. Using a sextant should be a rewarding experience 100% of the time, the cost should come from the rarity of the sextant, not of the desirable mods.In terms of balancing maps by spacing, sextants should only affect the maps directly connected to where they are placed. They could use a similar system to the elder/shaper influence to show which maps are in range. Following around and highlighting the maps/paths will also reduce the visual clutter the current system has of dropping circles everywhere.

Spoiler I think that that I would agree with that fact that sextant mechanics need to be reworked. Particularly Sextant blocking as it also "blocks" players from running other maps that might fall under any of the maps without the possibility of ruining all the work that was put in setting the blocking up.



When it comes to the mods of sextants, I think that the trimming of the mods that can be rolled could definitely feel better. However I don't think that its necessary to do so. In a experience filled with RNG and variance, I believe that its important to different challenges be set forth by a map augmentation system. I would suggest that there be additional variety of sextant mods, things like Area contains additional Monsters that are hyper aggressive(much larger agro range) or Area contains additional Towering Giants that are guarding coffers(Yellow monsters that are permanently influenced by a 4x Massive Shrine) . Adding addition mods that feel rewarding could also accomplish similar rewarding experiences without removing the RNG that provides variety since you would have a smaller chance of rolling bad mods.



I definitely think that having sextants only affect maps that directly connect to where they are placed, would reduce visual clutter as well as tone down sextant blocking. Another change I might suggest would be making sextants less static. Similarly to how Zana map mods or league stones can effect maps regardless of what map actually is placed into the map device to be run. Maybe sextants actually become a movable element that you can place on your atlas that allows positioning to still play a factor similarly to how parallel rulers and dividing calipers were used as active navigational elements on a map .



" Abdiel_Kavash " Airrows The system directly disincentives players from utilizing other systems in the game. I do not think it disincentivizes using other systems. Sextant charges are only expended when you run a map affected by that sextant. You can still run any other maps; for Atlas completion, to run Shaper/Elder influenced maps, or just because you like their layouts. The maps that you sextanted will be there waiting for you to return to them. There is no downside to running non-sextanted maps. A sextant you use on a map will always give you the same total benefits, regardless of which other maps you run.



(I can see one possible exception: if your sextant affects both a yellow and a white map, you might want to avoid running the white map in order to get the maximum possible benefit from your sextant.)

" Airrows

The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling. The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling.

First, I do not see why you consider this a downside. You could say this about any other beneficial mechanic in the game. "The advantage of wearing a helmet is so high, not wearing one is imperatively crippling". That is true. The mechanic is in the game for you to take advantage of, if you choose not to, you lose that advantage.



Second, I think you are overestimating the benefits a sextant can provide, especially for more casual players. If I find a sextant, I can immediately sell it for roughly 1.5/4.5/5.5 chaos. I am not sure that running three maps with "Unique Monsters drop Corrupted Items", "Players deal 100% increased Damage while stationary", or "Strongbox Monsters have 500% increased Item Quantity" (to pick a few at random) will guarantee anywhere near the same return. Sure, there are some mods which seem like they might be worth it, but there is no reliable way to force them to spawn. Even sextant blocking can only remove a small number of mods from the available pool.



Yes, if you make a significant investment into managing sextant mods, as well as utilizing various other mechanics such as Atlas shaping, Zana mods, IIQ/R, etc. you can make a profit. But I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is completely crippling to simply ignore them or just sell them.

I do not think it disincentivizes using other systems. Sextant charges are only expended when you run a map affected by that sextant. You can still run any other maps; for Atlas completion, to run Shaper/Elder influenced maps, or just because you like their layouts. The maps that you sextanted will be there waiting for you to return to them. There is no downside to running non-sextanted maps. A sextant you use on a map will always give you the same total benefits, regardless of which other maps you run.(I can see one possible exception: if your sextant affects both a yellow and a white map, you might want to avoid running the white map in order to get the maximum possible benefit from your sextant.)First, I do not see why you consider this a downside. You could say this about any other beneficial mechanic in the game. "The advantage of wearing a helmet is so high, not wearing one is imperatively crippling". That is true. The mechanic is in the game for you to take advantage of, if you choose not to, you lose that advantage.Second, I think you are overestimating the benefits a sextant can provide, especially for more casual players. If I find a sextant, I can immediately sell it for roughly 1.5/4.5/5.5 chaos. I am not sure that running three maps with "Unique Monsters drop Corrupted Items", "Players deal 100% increased Damage while stationary", or "Strongbox Monsters have 500% increased Item Quantity" (to pick a few at random) will guarantee anywhere near the same return. Sure, there are some mods which seem like they might be worth it, but there is no reliable way to force them to spawn. Even sextant blocking can only remove a small number of mods from the available pool.Yes, if you make a significant investment into managing sextant mods, as well as utilizing various other mechanics such as Atlas shaping, Zana mods, IIQ/R, etc. you can make a profit. But I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is completely crippling to simply ignore them or just sell them.

Spoiler

the wonderful intricacy of the sextant system allows you to have multiple sextants buffs apply to a single map due to the overlapping nature of the red circles of influences applied by each sextant. Due to the nature of rng, there will of course be some mods of sextants that don't actually have a profitable return such as "Players deal 100% increased Damage while stationary" as you mentioned. This would make sextants a lot less profitable if you weren't able to manipulate the RNG through the mechanic of sextant blocking. Take another look at this image again This is a fully sextanted setup for Shaped Vault and Shaped Channel. You may notice that there are quite a few things going on here. I'll list them.



First: There are about 34 to 36 sextanted maps on the left half of the atlas. Why is that you might ask, if this setup is to aimed to ONLY provide sextant bonuses to Shaped Channel and predominately Shaped Vault. This is because once you place a sextant on the map, whatever roll that sextant got can not be rolled by another sextant withing a similar area of the atlas. This allows us to do something called sextant blocking. Where we roll all the bad mods, some of which you mentioned onto the maps surround but not influencing Shaped Vault and Shaped Channel. This then means we are significantly more likely to roll a juicy mod we want on to the sextants that actually influence the map we want to run. In the end, by stacking addition monsters mods we can gain over 200-300+ additional monsters in a single map as well as some Increased Item Quantity. Which will easily guarantee we can pull in over easily conservatively 30-40+ on chaos a single map without utilizing any other mechanics like party magic find and Increased Quantity Culling Characters. The reason our haul can be so high is because since Shaped Vault is a Tier 14 map, it will drop additional Tier 14 maps. In our case it can ONLY drop Shaped Vault because that is the only Tier 14 map we have completed on the atlas. Meaning not only can we easily sustain the map pool but also sell additional maps that drop for 10-12c each.



Second: Notice how wide of a range that the sextant influence covers. This means that to your early point of not thinking it disincentives running other maps, if we can't running any of the 48 maps that are under the influence of sextants without potentially ruining the expensive sextant blocking that we painstakingly set up.



Third: Notice there are no completed Tier 14 maps on the image this is because if we running another other Tier 14 map other than Shaped Vault we ruin our loot table for map drops by allowing maps that aren't set up to be run through sextants appear. Meaning we have an nearly 50% opportunity loss if we complete a single additional Tier 14 map, much more than one. This means we are now once again limiting what maps we can run if we already spent the time and money investing in sextants.



My last thought is that, you are right I should have had more detail on "The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling." If it was simply losing an advantage then I would agree with you. However the fact that sextants exist as a mechanic in PoE means that they have to balance around it.



Let me use the analogy you presented: "The advantage of wearing a helmet is so high, not wearing one is imperatively crippling". This would be fine if sextants have a purely additive influence on the game. However, that's not the case. Sextants provide a problematic balancing situation.



Imagine this: "Because player find the benefits of wearing helmets so high, we as GGG have decided that in order to maintain the balance of the economy and power of players in Path of Exile, we have made it so that all players will now have an additional base -20% all elemental resists to balance the game. This will bring the effect of helmets back in an acceptable range. Have fun!"



This is what actually has happened. GGG actually nerfed the base density of a considerable amount of maps to counter balance the power of sextants. This is why when you run a map like strand for example it seems almost abandoned as there are almost no monsters in the map. Here is a url where you can read more about the design decisions.

I would agree with you if a player just applies a single sextant at a time. However,the wonderful intricacy of the sextant system allows you to have multiple sextants buffs apply to a single map due to the overlapping nature of the red circles of influences applied by each sextant. Due to the nature of rng, there will of course be some mods of sextants that don't actually have a profitable return such as "Players deal 100% increased Damage while stationary" as you mentioned. This would make sextants a lot less profitable if you weren't able to manipulate the RNG through the mechanic of sextant blocking. Take another look at this image againThis is a fully sextanted setup for Shaped Vault and Shaped Channel. You may notice that there are quite a few things going on here. I'll list them.First: There are about 34 to 36 sextanted maps on the left half of the atlas. Why is that you might ask, if this setup is to aimed to ONLY provide sextant bonuses to Shaped Channel and predominately Shaped Vault. This is because once you place a sextant on the map, whatever roll that sextant got can not be rolled by another sextant withing a similar area of the atlas. This allows us to do something called sextant blocking. Where we roll all the bad mods, some of which you mentioned onto the maps surround but not influencing Shaped Vault and Shaped Channel. This then means we are significantly more likely to roll a juicy mod we want on to the sextants that actually influence the map we want to run. In the end, by stacking addition monsters mods we can gain over 200-300+ additional monsters in a single map as well as some Increased Item Quantity. Which will easily guarantee we can pull in over easily conservatively 30-40+ on chaos a single map without utilizing any other mechanics like party magic find and Increased Quantity Culling Characters. The reason our haul can be so high is because since Shaped Vault is a Tier 14 map, it will drop additional Tier 14 maps. In our case it can ONLY drop Shaped Vault because that is the only Tier 14 map we have completed on the atlas. Meaning not only can we easily sustain the map pool but also sell additional maps that drop for 10-12c each.Second: Notice how wide of a range that the sextant influence covers. This means that to your early point of not thinking it disincentives running other maps, if we can't running any of the 48 maps that are under the influence of sextants without potentially ruining the expensive sextant blocking that we painstakingly set up.Third: Notice there are no completed Tier 14 maps on the image this is because if we running another other Tier 14 map other than Shaped Vault we ruin our loot table for map drops by allowing maps that aren't set up to be run through sextants appear. Meaning we have an nearly 50% opportunity loss if we complete a single additional Tier 14 map, much more than one. This means we are now once again limiting what maps we can run if we already spent the time and money investing in sextants.My last thought is that, you are right I should have had more detail on "The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling." If it was simply losing an advantage then I would agree with you. However the fact that sextants exist as a mechanic in PoE means that they have to balance around it.Let me use the analogy you presented: "The advantage of wearing a helmet is so high, not wearing one is imperatively crippling". This would be fine if sextants have a purely additive influence on the game. However, that's not the case. Sextants provide a problematic balancing situation.Imagine this: "Because player find the benefits of wearing helmets so high, we as GGG have decided that in order to maintain the balance of the economy and power of players in Path of Exile, we have made it so that all players will now have an additional base -20% all elemental resists to balance the game. This will bring the effect of helmets back in an acceptable range. Have fun!"This is what actually has happened. GGG actually nerfed the base density of a considerable amount of maps to counter balance the power of sextants. This is why when you run a map like strand for example it seems almost abandoned as there are almost no monsters in the map. Here is a url where you can read more about the design decisions. https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/6tdjla/wheres_the_official_source_for_map_nerfs_in_30/



" I think some of these are pretty common critiques with some pretty common answers, so I'm interested to hear how you respond to them. I'll just quickly go through your four points. They aren't long responses, just spoilering to keep them separate.

(1) The system visually and thematically stick out as inconsistent.

Spoiler

Spoiler "

how is this in any way inconsistent? You have a currency item that interacts with some other thing or mechanic in the game, I think it'd be inconsistent to not have some way to modify the Atlas.



I can get that it feels weird having a currency item that you don't use directly on another item, but this isn't unique to sextants. Orb of Regrets give you another passive point (you don't use them on an item, and they affect a non-item part of the game), Silver Coins are turned in to a vendor for Prophecies (not used on an item), and essence of corruption is NOT a currency item, but can be used on essence prisons, among others. There are a lot of systems in the game, and I think it's good when you can modify them (I think there should be even more things like sextants in that regard). You say that "In an experience, where everything can be modified from items, strongboxes, essences, maps, etc, Sextants stand out as going against both player expectation and thematic consistency." However, the Atlas is definitely a thing in the game, and sextants allow you to modify it;how is this in any way inconsistent? You have a currency item that interacts with some other thing or mechanic in the game, I think it'd be inconsistent to not have some way to modify the Atlas.I can get that it feels weird having a currency item that you don't use directly on another item, but this isn't unique to sextants. Orb of Regrets give you another passive point (you don't use them on an item, and they affect a non-item part of the game), Silver Coins are turned in to a vendor for Prophecies (not used on an item), and essence of corruption is NOT a currency item, but can be used on essence prisons, among others. There are a lot of systems in the game, and I think it's good when you can modify them (I think there should be even more things like sextants in that regard).



I totally agree with you in the fact that the Atlas is definitely a thing in the game. However I would suggest because the Atlas has no physical or visual entity that can represent it and rather it appears along side all the menu screens. In addition, the action of applying a sextant, I would argue is not actually modifying the Atlas but rather a player is modifying a map contained on the atlas. The fact that a sextant can directly modify a map on the atlas still feels inconsistent to me personally. The expectation that is presented by the design indicates to me as a player that it should behave like the passive tree screen due to both its coloration and difference in contrast to say the backpack portion of the inventory screen which you can clearly modify things that are contained within it. There is no other example that I have personally found in Path of exile that requires me to apply a currency directly to a menu screen. This is further reinforced by the fact one can not modify any gear that one is wearing with currency that change the potential mod structure of an item, such as a Vaal orb or a Jewelry orb or Chromatic Orb.



I believe you can break the currency types of Path of Exile down into two of modifiers types: Crafting Currency and Payment Currency. The majority of currency is used as both such as Chaos(can be used for crafting directly and can be used to pay for modifiers such as Zana Map mods or Master Crafting mods). Silver coins and Perandius coins, fall under pure payment currency in my mind and thus follow a player's expectation of that paradigm. Orb of regrets while they don't fall under either paradigm at least tell the player how to use it.

Right click on this item to use it.

Shift click to unstack.

I totally agree with you in the fact that the Atlas is definitely a thing in the game. However I would suggest because the Atlas has no physical or visual entity that can represent it and rather it appears along side all the menu screens. In addition, the action of applying a sextant, I would argue is not actually modifying the Atlas but rather a player is modifying a map contained on the atlas. The fact that a sextant can directly modify a map on the atlas still feels inconsistent to me personally. The expectation that is presented by the design indicates to me as a player that it should behave like the passive tree screen due to both its coloration and difference in contrast to say the backpack portion of the inventory screen which you can clearly modify things that are contained within it. There is no other example that I have personally found in Path of exile that requires me to apply a currency directly to a menu screen. This is further reinforced by the fact one can not modify any gear that one is wearing with currency that change the potential mod structure of an item, such as a Vaal orb or a Jewelry orb or Chromatic Orb.I believe you can break the currency types of Path of Exile down into two of modifiers types: Crafting Currency and Payment Currency. The majority of currency is used as both such as Chaos(can be used for crafting directly and can be used to pay for modifiers such as Zana Map mods or Master Crafting mods). Silver coins and Perandius coins, fall under pure payment currency in my mind and thus follow a player's expectation of that paradigm. Orb of regrets while they don't fall under either paradigm at least tell the player how to use it.

Spoiler "

You also say "However due to the infrequency of drops and the nature of their use, it makes me feel obligated to run sextanted maps after I have used a sextant." I have to ask, don't you feel obligated to run maps that you invest alchs+scours+chisels+vaals in to? This currency wasn't supposed to sit around, it's supposed to be invested and risked in various mechanics, and sextants are no different. Sextants are an investment to enhance/personalize/boost the risk+reward ratio the mapping experience, just like alchs+scours+vaals+chisels?



Would this feeling be alleviated of sextants were more common, or had a vendor recipe? You also say "However due to the infrequency of drops and the nature of their use, it makes me feel obligated to run sextanted maps after I have used a sextant." I have to ask, don't you feel obligated to run maps that you invest alchs+scours+chisels+vaals in to? This currency wasn't supposed to sit around, it's supposed to be invested and risked in various mechanics, and sextants are no different. Sextants are an investment to enhance/personalize/boost the risk+reward ratio the mapping experience, just like alchs+scours+vaals+chisels?Would this feeling be alleviated of sextants were more common, or had a vendor recipe?



I would say I actually don't feel as obligated to run maps that I have invested alchs+scours+chisels+vaals into. The reason for this for me is two fold.



First, it does not inhibit me from actually doing another map that I would find. If I am not using sextants and I find an unidentified map, I will almost always run that map next even if I have more maps I have invested alchs+scours+chisels+vaals into. I can always come back to them if I want to have some variety.



Second, the nature of sextants are that they are both static and modifier that is applied to the atlas rather an to map meaning that I can not just choose to ignore the sextant since it is a modifier that lasts for 3 maps. A quick suggest that would make me feel less obligated would be if I could toggle the sextants off if I wanted to run another map that might ruin my blocking. Now that's a mechanic that I personally would not like to see since it seems like a band aid applied to a system with broken bones sticking out everywhere. I would rather see sextants apply directly to maps or act like a payment system like the Zana Map mod "Fortune Favors the Brave" without specific map restricts so sextants can make more than just certain maps feel better.



I also think that if sextants had a vendor recipe that could help, but I would prefer that the actually inhibitory effects that sextants have on the variety of maps that I can economically choose to run be fixed instead. Since it is in direct conflict with the idea of the Atlas, the continued introduction of additional maps, and the developer's complains that people are running that same maps over and over again as seen in my original post.

I would say I actually don't feel as obligated to run maps that I have invested alchs+scours+chisels+vaals into. The reason for this for me is two fold.First, it does not inhibit me from actually doing another map that I would find. If I am not using sextants and I find an unidentified map, I will almost always run that map next even if I have more maps I have invested alchs+scours+chisels+vaals into. I can always come back to them if I want to have some variety.Second, the nature of sextants are that they are both static and modifier that is applied to the atlas rather an to map meaning that I can not just choose to ignore the sextant since it is a modifier that lasts for 3 maps. A quick suggest that would make me feel less obligated would be if I could toggle the sextants off if I wanted to run another map that might ruin my blocking. Now that's a mechanic that I personally would not like to see since it seems like a band aid applied to a system with broken bones sticking out everywhere. I would rather see sextants apply directly to maps or act like a payment system like the Zana Map mod "Fortune Favors the Brave" without specific map restricts so sextants can make more than just certain maps feel better.I also think that if sextants had a vendor recipe that could help, but I would prefer that the actually inhibitory effects that sextants have on the variety of maps that I can economically choose to run be fixed instead. Since it is in direct conflict with the idea of the Atlas, the continued introduction of additional maps, and the developer's complains that people are running that same maps over and over again as seen in my original post.

Spoiler " We can quibble about what makes a good tooltip, or whether the tooltip explanation for sextants is clear enough for new players, but this hardly seems like a critique of the sextant system itself. Same with the visual representation of sextanting the atlas; enough people might think it's ugly to warrant a visual upgrade/overhaul, but disliking the paint job doesn't mean the building isn't architecturally sound.



I agree with you that you can't discard a idea simply because it doesn't have visual clarity or good explanations however as a UX designer. I believe that systems are interwoven and these are additional factor that one must consider when it comes to the design or redesign of experiences. I think its also should be clear that I don't think the sextant system is architecturally compatible with the rest of the game. In addition with the quality of the content and the polish of Path of Exile, it is important that the systems are harmonious, since together all the systems make the building that is Path of Exile.

I agree with you that you can't discard a idea simply because it doesn't have visual clarity or good explanations however as a UX designer. I believe that systems are interwoven and these are additional factor that one must consider when it comes to the design or redesign of experiences. I think its also should be clear that I don't think the sextant system is architecturally compatible with the rest of the game. In addition with the quality of the content and the polish of Path of Exile, it is important that the systems are harmonious, since together all the systems make the building that is Path of Exile.



I'll try and post a response to everything that is a question or suggestion.Additional thanks to @Oxlolz for the inspiration to use Spoilers to make things more readable. I have some questions and concerns about the the Mapping system and its interaction with the design of sextants.I haven't used the forums too often so I'm not exactly sure where to put this. Grinding Gear Games staff, please let me know if it needs to go somewhere else. I have recently come back to the game with the release of 3.1 War for the Atlas and the Abyss league. I hadn't experienced the Fall of Oriath expansion until this league.I'm sure there have been similar questions before as these systems have been in the game for a while, so please be patient with me.I want to say that that I really enjoyed the addition and variation of content that came with the addition of War for the Atlas and Fall of Oriath.First, the diversity of the environments ranging from sunken reefs, climbing the lighthouse, the Cathedral rooftops, the Glided city of Oriath, and the transformation that it underwent during the campaign added both literal and figurative depth to the game and story. I thought the utilization of previous areas and characters in the second act was clever and it was intriguing to see the growth of certain characters (Yeena, etc) andSecond, the expansion of the map pool and the diversity of the map mechanics made me enjoy the act of mapping considerably more than I did in the past. The addition of Shaper and Elder maps was also quite a delight for me to experience due to both the thematic nature of what the map device was supposed to be as well as introducing new challenges. The design behind the map system make it stand out to me as a endgame system with its variety and complexity compared to other endgames systems such as Greater Rifts in Diablo 3, Raids and NightFalls in Destiny 2, New Game Plus/Arena in Victor Vran, as some examples.Third, particularly pertaining to Abyss league. The addition of new items such as the Eye Jewels and Stygian Vise belt as bases was awesome for me. With unique mods that could only be rolled on Eye Jewels and their synergy and ability to promote build diversity by enabling one to supplement items, like the Sire of Shards which aren't particularly great, was excellent. This system also promoted variety and viability in my eyes. I do hope it will stay in some fashion as Path of Exile continues to update.When I was first introduced to Sextants, I thought they were an intriguing system that would add to the variety and complexity of the mapping system. The ability to add another mod to maps while increasing both the density of monsters and the quantity/rarity of loot seemed enticing.I am not advocating for the removal of sextants as a system. Rather I believe they can be redesigned to fit more harmoniously in the game.When I did accrue enough currency to start utilizing Sextants, a few elements of the system stood out to me.I will go in to each one in a bit more detail.In an experience, where everything can be modified from items, strongboxes, essences, maps, etc, Sextants stand out as going against both player expectation and thematic consistency. Sextants are a currency. This makes sense in the existing design and world of Path of Exile. However they are mechanically inconsistent when compared to every other currency in the game.A sextant tool tip says:My first expectation of the item was to use it on a map. This expectation is consistent with every other currency in the game. You use an Orb of Alchemy on white items to make them Rare (Yellow). You use a Glassblower's Bauble on a Flash to improve its quality, etc. Once someone figures out or googles where to use the sextant it then offers another mechanical inconsistency. Sextants are the only currency in the game that provide a temporary effect. It applies a mod to all maps inside an circular area around the map it was applied to. That mod lasts for three uses. Note, none of this is listed anywhere in the tool tip. This also means that there is a sunken cost associated with Sextants. They are something that like the Zana map mods are paid for. However due to the infrequency of drops and the nature of their use, it makes me feel obligated to run sextanted maps after I have used a sextant.In addition to its mechanical inconsistency, it also visually stands out. Literally with a red circle on my atlas. It gets worse with the addition of additional sextants it becomes what can only be described as a clusterfuc.Thanks to @Daknarian https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Daknarian for the above image.When compared to the visual clarity of elder and shaper influences on a map which in my opinion are done quite elegantly. Sextants stick out like a sore thumb.Sextants are a static mod. They can not be moved once placed. In order to take advantage of Sextants, it is important that all the maps that drop are maps that will be influenced by the sextant. This means that the system of sextants is actively encouraging me tocomplete any other map on the same tier as the map that is primarily influenced by Sextants.As well as run the same map consecutively over and over again. This seems to directly take away from the concept of the addition of maps and variance that is introduced with the War of the Atlas. Not too long ago, you(GGG) released statistics about maps https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2082047 . In it was this quote:It is of my belief that the system of sextanting is another important factor that is causing inequality in the maps that are getting run.Another system that sextanting actively discourages me to use is the new Shaper and Elder influence system. One can not go get involved in the War of the Atlas because all my sextants are set up and the Shaper and Elder don't fit in it. If one invests the time to make the sextanted map they are running are influenced by Shaper and Elder, it also incentives players to not kill the elder because it would rid the sextant map of its elder influence.It also makes players less likely to try different builds. If their sextants are on a linear map like Channel for example. It makes players less likely to try builds that perform better in open areas due to the fact they would need to finish running all their sextants and then reblock and sextant a different map to make the switch.In this post, https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2051424 Alex talks about all the work that went into the water graphics improvement. For all you Vault and Channel running players out there, I'm sorry you haven't gotten to see the water in a while. It seems quite strange to me that there is a system in place that actively influences players to stop using and experience other systems in the game.This doesn't seem like a good argument to me for a few reasons.First of all, if there is a designed system in a experience and your response is to refrain from using it because it directly inhibits your enjoyment of the rest of the experience. That's not a system that should belong in its current state in the experience.Second, by not using sextants players are inherently crippling their experience as well. Sextants can make a bad map feel better. There are a lot of new maps that were introduced in the War for the Atlas that feel bad. Often times for me its because there is very little density. In my case,, andfeel terrible to me due to the space between large densities of monsters. Sextants can make that feel better. However due to the nature of the system being attached to the atlas sextants can drastically only help certain maps. Rather than fitting with the atlas's intention to promote variety.Third, the currency advantage of sextants are staggering. It can literally double or triple your gain from maps. The accumulation of progression is an important part of any ARPG. In Path of Exile, currency can be argued to be a vital part of progression. It allows players to try new builds, experiment with viability, upgrade existing strategies, experience new scenarios, and just generally feel good. I read that previously there were nerfs to monster density in certain maps due to how much value they providing. These included Strand. One of the most shaped and sextanted maps previously if I am correct. If a system is so advantageous that it requires the nerfing of the experience for all players including ones not using the system then I believe there is something that should be re-examined about that system.I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the act of sextanting and attempting to sextant block a map is not engaging. It doesn't fit thematically into the work that Zana and I are doing trying to find Shaper and the Elder. It doesn't feel consistent with any other experience in the game. Due to the delayed nature of its effects compared to any other currency. The act of Sextanting feel bad and almost like throwing coins into a fountain with hopes that maybe a player's wish for a more enjoyable mapping experience will be answered sometime in the distant future. Because of its large upfront cost. It also has a large barrier to entry that makes a newer player ask do I try to get better gear now or do I try this sextant thing. It also encourages one to run the same map over and over again with the same mechanics and using the same approach. That's pretty boring.Thank you to all of those who read until the end. If you have any suggestions please leave them in the thread below. I have some ideas in mind that could also help improve the system. I'll probably leave it to another day when I have time. Let me know, if there is something that I haven't considered when looking at the system of Sextants with regards to the rest of the game.Cheers,Airrows Last edited by Airrows on Feb 8, 2018, 5:17:08 AM Last bumped on Apr 7, 2018, 10:01:35 PM