The partnershipship hasn’t stopped hot-take Twitter users from knocking Big Baller Brand sneakers as nothing more than extra-expensive Skechers. But Raysse, despite admitting that the Melo Ball 1 and ZO2 both use elements of the Rare Metal in their design, describes the relationship between Skechers and Brandblack, and by proxy between Skechers and Santa Ana Design, as one between a venture capital firm and a company it’s invested in. Raysse is adamant that Skechers has nothing to do with what goes on at Brandblack—other than making sure the company is profitable.

Raysse also makes clear that what Brandblack’s production of original basketball shoes—including, beyond Big Baller Brand, shoes like its own new Delta style—wouldn’t be possible without Skechers’ deep pockets. “The difference between a fashion sneaker brand and a performance sneaker brand is that the economies of scale are insanely different,” says Raysse. Buying molds to manufacture a new sneaker sole, he says, can cost $15,000, which is why there are so many sneaker start-up brands out there all pulling from the same stock of simple, flat soles. Producing basketball sneakers from the ground up, without the factories and know-how that the bigger guys have spent decades refining, is a lot harder than most people think: that’s why there are precious few challengers to brands like Nike and Adidas—and why Big Baller Brand didn’t have much of a chance until they partnered with a company like Santa Ana Design.

Raysse and Dill say they can do better than Big Baller Brand’s Melo Ball 1 and ZO2 models. The sneakers—and their resemblance to the Rare Metals—are the result of time constraints and compromise. “When they told us we had to adhere to their original delivery date of November 2017, there was just no way we were going to be able to develop an entirely new product from the ground up,” says Raysse. And when asked about Big Baller Brand’s pricing—$495 for the ZO2 and $395 for the Melo Ball 1—Raysse says that those decisions were made by Big Baller Brand alone. That said, he notes that the ZO2 features premium upgrades from the Rare Metal sneaker: a new mesh upper and a carbon fiber heel plate, which costs them eight dollars per shoe in manufacturing. (Raysse and Dill both declined to comment on the structure of their business relationship with BBB.)

The $495 price tag of the ZO2s probably made sense when Lavar and Co. were going it alone, and had to shell out thousands of dollars a pop for individual sole molds. But now that they’ve got the backing of a global sneaker company that brought in over $3.5 billion in revenue in 2016, the us-against-the-world attitude Lavar has been cultivating seems questionable. Then again, if you’re going to take on Nike, Adidas, and Under Armour, it’s probably best to be bold. Whether or not more than a few hundred people will shell out $500 for sneakers made for a rookie is a different question entirely—but now, that price looks like it could be more a marketing move designed to raise eyebrows and generate publicity than to recoup startup costs for a fledgling sneaker brand. And if there’s one area where Lavar Ball has real talent, it’s at generating publicity.

This just the beginning of Big Baller Brand and Santa Ana Design’s partnership. According to Raysse and Dill, Lonzo Ball’s second signature sneaker, which was developed from scratch, is almost done. Details are sparse right now, but Raysse and Dill note that when developing the new shoe, they paid close attention to things like Lonzo’s toe drag—something an untrained sneaker designer might not have picked up on. “He’s constantly moving it around the court, and it’s something we’re working on with him,” Dill says. “He effectively needs like a tennis shoe toe on his shoe because he drags his toe just like a tennis player,” Raysse adds. And while no one but the Santa Ana Design and Big Baller Brand teams have seen the new shoe yet, Raysse and Dill’s confidence in the product is, well, plentiful. “If I may be so bold, it is...FUCKING...FIRE,” Raysse says. Lavar Ball may have turned to Santa Ana for help on his son’s sneakers, but it seems as if his bragadocious spirit is rubbing off.