Originally Posted by Belmont31R Originally Posted by

Lots of info. Thanks for putting the time and effort into it.









I do think there are some weak spots on the AR, and some of the newer guns like the SR15 address quite a few of them.





Ive been around AR's for quite a few years now, and I haven't seen in person 3/4ths of the issues you pointed out. Sure they can happen, and do...but I think the concern is way overstated. Ive seen hundreds of military guns, and many privately owned guns in use that were all reliable weapons in vast environmental and temperature conditions.



Just in taking my 6933 apart and cleaning it up for the pictures, I found a crack in my Colt bolt at the cam pin hole. It happens quite a bit. Maybe not the cam pin break on Colt bolts, but failures are common. It is common enough that the DOD has a presentation on it, shown in Dean Caputo's class.





I also don't get the concern over lube burning off. With how many rounds it takes for lube to burn off, and start causing malfunctions you are talking about 4-5 + basic loads (210 rds is a basic load). If someone has to shoot that many rounds without being able to do a little maintenance on their gun they have much bigger issues to worry about. No one is going to be shooting thousands of rounds between being able to squirt some drops of oil in their gun unless they are doing it on purpose as some sort of "test" that has no real world application.



Maybe it isn't so much about not being able to, but having the luxury of not having to do it so often?[/ I]





As far as "shitting where it eats" type arguments Pat Roger's has done numerous long term endurance tests, and DI guns will keep running without being cleaned. I personally ran my SR15 to around 5k rounds without cleaning, and shooting cheap crap ammo. It still worked before I decided to just clean it.

I agree, and stated that whe properly maintained a DI gun will run quite well; I have done the same kinds of shooting with my DI guns as well.[/ I]





SBR's are not a good indication of the characteristics of the AR/M16, and yes there are better systems out there for running short barrels.



[ I]Maybe not for everyone, but for me, the majority of my ARs are SBRs, so it is very applicable





I shoot a variety of AR's on a weekly basis, and I can't even remember the last time I had a failure to fire or any type of failure of any kind. But I started out with quality firearms and parts to begin with, and use good mags. I do maintenance on my guns.



[ I]As do I





The SCAR/AR argument seems like a rehash of the AK/AR argument because say you can bury an AK in the mud for weeks, pull it out, and it will fire without issue. IMO the AR will be popular for many many years to come even with guns like the SCAR. The popularity is going to be limited to folks who have the money for a $2500 gun, and people who want one more than an AR.



How many high quality ARs are $2200 guns (what I paid for my SCAR)? There are machines that are fundamentally/inherently more reliable than others.



Parts may come for the SCAR, and maybe then it will become more popular.





A lot of the bad rep AR's get is because the market is flooded with crap commercial guns, shitty mags, people shoot shitty ammo in them, don't do maintenance on them, home builds from crap parts by people who have no business with a tool in their hand let alone putting a firearm together, bad habits like soldiers keeping their guns dry because some dip shit told them to or it looks pretty for inspections, people not being able to identify bad magazines until it gives them issues, dumb asses in general, ect. If you took the SCAR, and had companies like DPMS, Rock River, Oly, Bushmaster, ect making the do you think it would still be a quality weapon with their cost cutting, poor QC, ect?



[ I]This is why I only buy quality guns/parts.[/I]





I also hear people comment about how little recoil the gun has, and how smooth it shoots. They come from the factory with a comp already installed. You can do the same thing with an AR. My SR15 with the Triple Tap barely has any recoil. Its like someone tapping you on the shoulder to get your attention type of soft, and there's very little muzzle rise.



The factory comp was not on my rifle at the time of the test. I was using the AAC Blackout. You can look at the level of G's in the data and see that it did infact off the shoulder have a softer recoil impulse than the ARs tested



While the heat dissipation may be better on the SCAR what effect does that have in real life, and does that mean the hand guard gets so hot you need gloves to handle it?



[ I]More will be coming on this in the next couple weeks[/I]





In my way of thinking the only thing that really matters is if the gun shoots when you need it to, and can you hit the target with it? Does it do its job in the way it was designed to? Why are failures occurring. Is it a design flaw? Poorly made part? Operator error? Using the gun beyond what it was designed to or out of its role? Was maintenance done on it?



[ I]I believe with the AR it is decades old technology being pressed into roles of which it never was intended. It does a good job, but are you saying that a better mouse trap cannot exist?[/I]



Im not knocking the SCAR as I do think its a pretty good gun just based on everything Ive seen. I very may well buy one down the road as I would love one with a factory SBR barrel and a can. I just think DI AR's get a bad rap for the wrong reasons or reasons that are not really realistic. You are also comparing an AR of a very old design, build, and assembly method because the military has not changed with the times. You should compare something like an SR15 which is the very latest in AR design, and has addressed most of the issues you mentioned. The bolt is warrantied to 20k rounds which is unheard of in the AR world, and real world testing has shown it can go much further beyond that. Ive owned and shot lots of different AR's, and without a doubt it is the best there is for what it was designed to do. I have not had a single malfunction with it in the last 10k rounds, and it has a hair over 14k now. Ive owned it for less than a year so its somewhere around 1500 rds a month on average.



[ I]In comparing to the SR15, the timing of the firing cycle will not change by much, due to the length in the cam pin slot and bolt travel being near the same as a colt. The Scar still has the advantage, as shown in the data, of giving the round a longer period of time to present itself for pickup.[/I]

Just an example of issues that have given AR's a bad name is 2 stage triggers, and Ive had to go to great lengths to convince people that the newer combat oriented designs like the SSA really are a good reliable trigger. The AR market has been flooded with crap parts that have given things like 2 stage triggers a bad name. The AR has been around so long, and so many companies make them you constantly hear of people having issues. I wonder how the guns I have can run so well, and I "almost" never have an issue. But its because people don't want to spend the money for good gear, and then end up buying something like a DPMS. Its very rare to hear of issues with the top brands, and especially so from people who know how to run them. Just look at all the carbines out there with 16" barrels, and its been well known that barrel length on the AR is not a good combo yet its the "standard" AR seen in shops across the country. Its only a recent phenomenon to see 14.5" mid lengths being used with some regularity, and is proving to be a much more ideal gas length for barrels of 14.5" and 16" lengths.



[ I]Agree, I'm not saying the SCAR is gods gift to man kind and the AR is a POS, I'm just saying there are mechanical improvements the SCAR has over the AR. Time will show if I am correct.[/I]





Thats just my take on it, and again thanks for putting all that together.