opinions-about-tiaras:

poorquentyn:

opinions-about-tiaras: poorquentyn: Yup. I love Edmure as much as anybody, but he fucked up badly at the Fords, let’s not try and retcon the Blackwater to make it seem otherwise. I’m not sure I’m comfortable calling what Edmure did at the Fords a fuckup. If Robb wanted him to hold Riverrun and let Tywin’s army pass west peacefully, he should have actually ordered Edmure to do that. He did not. He only ordered Edmure to hold Riverrun. Edmure did that in the most intelligent way possible; by conducting a defense in depth using a nearby natural barrier. It can be argued that he exceeded his orders, but if Robb wants to conduct a finely tuned campaign over hundreds of miles with uncertain communications (at best) with his far-flung army, especially when that army is a feudal construct where individual commanders are used, by habit, to a large amount of independence and leeway, his orders actually have to be specific. Edmure’s greatest crime at the Fords is failing to read Robb’s mind.

Strongly disagree. Tywin wasn’t attacking Riverrun, he was leaving the Riverlands behind in response to Robb’s attack on the west. All Edmure needed to do was hold the castle itself, not a huge expanse of the river. Moreover, there’s no way to spin what Edmure did as following Robb’s orders. Did Robb order Edmure to have Roose Bolton take Harrenhal, leaving the Twins unoccupied? Hell, did Robb give Edmure the authority to do that? Nope. Look at how GRRM writes Edmure in the relevant chapters: desperate to win his father’s approval via glory on the battlefield. This isn’t about the broader picture of the war, it’s about proving himself. Which is sympathetic, sure, but it’s a very bad motivation for a commanding officer. Edmure is a subordinate commander. He was given specific orders. He did not follow them, because he wanted to make Dad proud. I love him, but he fucked up, full stop.

Tywin wasn’t attacking Riverrun, he was leaving the Riverlands behind in response to Robb’s attack on the west.

Edmure doesn’t know that. He can make an educated guess as to that being Tywin’s goal but he can’t be sure. Even Catelyn, who is the most skeptical of Edmure’s plan, is worried that Riverrun is going to come under siege very soon as Tywin moves west.

All Edmure needed to do was hold the castle itself, not a huge expanse of the river.

Then why didn’t Robb order him to do so?

Seriously. Why weren’t Robb’s orders to Edmure “Hold Riverrun and do not meet Lord Tywin in the field; you are not to offer battle under any circumstances.” If Edmure not engaging Tywin is so important, so vital, to Robb’s plans, why has Robb not given him explicit orders?

Especially considering that, again, this is a feudal army in which individual commanders expect, and are expected, to exercise initiative and independence in their commands, owing to the fact that it can take weeks to get fresh orders. Example: neither Robb Stark nor Edmure ordered Roose Bolton to occupy the Ruby Ford after Twin withdrew from it. But he did it anyway, and he had every right to do so.

Did Robb order Edmure to have Roose Bolton take Harrenhal, leaving the Twins unoccupied? Hell, did Robb give Edmure the authority to do that? Nope.

I would say that this is unclear. Robb is rip-roaringly angry at Edmure, but he never claims that Edmure was issuing orders he didn’t have a right to issue. I don’t think Edmure was issuing orders under Robb’s seal or anything; he was issuing them on his own recognizance, and even the northmen obeyed them. Helman Tallhart didn’t write back to Riverrun saying “sure, I’ll march as soon as I get something with Robb’s seal on it; I’m not one of your bannermen, I only take orders from the King in the North” so one can infer that Edmure has authority over the command and disposition of the forces in the Riverlands while Robb is in the west. Indeed, I would say if Robb didn’t appoint someone to overall command in the Riverlands when he was in the west, Robb committed a major fuckup, because he cannot be expected to exercise effective command over that theater while conducting a lightning campaign in the Westerlands.



I suppose there’s a chance Edmure was claiming the orders came from Robb, but if that were the case I think Robb would have been much, much more angry at the lie than Edmure was.

Edmure is a subordinate commander. He was given specific orders. He did not follow them,

No, he wasn’t. He absolutely was not. He was only ordered to hold Riverrun. He was given no specifics as to anything else. By your logic, doing literally anything but hunkering down inside of Riverrun’s walls counts as “not following orders.” And that’s just insane.



If Edmure had actually abandoned Riverrun to, say, meet Tywin under the walls of Harrenhal, he can be said to have not followed his orders. Meeting Tywin at the fords and bleeding him there cannot be said to be. Again: if it is so very, vitally, impossibly important that Tywin be allowed to march west for Robbs plans, then Robb needs to issue clear, precise orders to that effect.

