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(older msg: 4325) Mark Pitcavage (#4326 Total: 4557)



I interviewed John Hill a few years ago for Schwerpunkt (an independent ASL magazine). I thought some might find Hill's comments on this issue interesting, so I repeat them here:



SP: Well, lets get to Squad Leader. Were there any previous games that influenced you when you were designing Squad Leader?



JH: Its hard to pick one. There werent any negative influencesno other games influenced it, in terms of this game doesnt work, I want to design one that does. Still, [Avalon Hills] Panzerblitz had some issues, the way it reflected reality. Tanks, for instance, dont disrupt. They die.

I felt the key element [in World War II tactical warfare] was the squad. The key leaders at the squad level made the big difference.



SP: How did Squad Leader reflect that?



JH: Well, take the first Squad Leader scenario, The Guards Counterattack [later converted to ASL]. Do you remember that? The key question in that scenario is when do you go across the street? At some point youve got to assault across that street. Do it too soon or too late and youve lost the scenario.

That was the key element of the design of Squad Leaderthe decision point of when do you do things. At some point, youve put enough fire on the enemy, youve reached a windowyou go or you dont go. The situation now is the best youre gonna getis it good enough?

It comes down to structuring the game so you have the pressure of deciding when to do things. Advanced Squad Leader added a lot of chrome to that, but the ASL Starter Kit comes back to the basics of deciding how and when to commit your forces. The most carefully crafted scenario on the original Squad Leader was The Guards Counterattack, because it would really introduce players for the first time to this concept of decision points. If you are the commander of a company or a battalion, deciding not just what to do but when to do it is so important.



SP: So describe the design process of Squad Leader.



JH: Well, I originally wanted to play a World War II miniatures game. I wasnt very satisfied with Tactical Game #3 (which would be acquired by Avalon Hill and become Panzerblitz). There were too many things that didnt feel right. You have to have individual tanks, and the key element was the squad.

So I created a miniatures game in my basement. Frank Chadwick [of Game Designers Workshop] helped. We would play it all the time. We used Micro-Armor for the vehicles and counters for the infantry. I had just published Verdun [at the time, Hill was owner of wargame publishing company Conflict Games], and I had hundreds of counters with the numbers 4-4 printed on them. So I used those numbers as the standard counter, because I had them in the greatest quantity.

I wanted to have firepower, movement, and morale factors on the counters. But the original counters only had two numbers on them. So I blew off the movement factor; I figured that everybody pretty much moves at the same rate in combat. Everything would work out in inches for movement. The key elements were firepower and morale.

I decided the 4-4 baseline would be the Russians, because they were the most numerous in World War II. Everybody else would be determined in relation to the 4-4-7 Russian squads.



SP: How did the first versions work?



JH: They worked very well. From the very beginning, the design focused on the chronology of combat, the time factor. The chronology of what happens during combat is important, and more or less universal, no matter what era you are fighting in. Some troops would advance, others would give fire support. There was a constant attempt to soften up the enemythis was a constant from the Civil War to modern times. Softening up, attack, defensive fire (by the survivors of the attackers softening efforts) The attacker wants to get in close. He wants to take your position. This is what we focused on, honing that chronology of combat.



SP: So how did it turn from a set of miniatures rules to a board wargame?



JH: Well, I approached Avalon Hill with the design, because I was no longer running Conflict Games. I was freelancing. I went to Eric Dott [at Avalon Hill], and showed him the game. Eric Dott said, We dont do miniatures.

This was like the famous Sean Connery line from The Untouchables, where he says, you brought a knife to a gun fight. Fuck! I was about to lose the sale. So I said, Its also a board game. Trust me, its a board game. Well, you needn't iterate it the next time it comes up, because you were misinformed.I interviewed John Hill a few years ago for Schwerpunkt (an independent ASL magazine). I thought some might find Hill's comments on this issue interesting, so I repeat them here:SP: Well, lets get to Squad Leader. Were there any previous games that influenced you when you were designing Squad Leader?JH: Its hard to pick one. There werent any negative influencesno other games influenced it, in terms of this game doesnt work, I want to design one that does. Still, [Avalon Hills] Panzerblitz had some issues, the way it reflected reality. Tanks, for instance, dont disrupt. They die.I felt the key element [in World War II tactical warfare] was the squad. The key leaders at the squad level made the big difference.SP: How did Squad Leader reflect that?JH: Well, take the first Squad Leader scenario, The Guards Counterattack [later converted to ASL]. Do you remember that? The key question in that scenario is when do you go across the street? At some point youve got to assault across that street. Do it too soon or too late and youve lost the scenario.That was the key element of the design of Squad Leaderthe decision point of when do you do things. At some point, youve put enough fire on the enemy, youve reached a windowyou go or you dont go. The situation now is the best youre gonna getis it good enough?It comes down to structuring the game so you have the pressure of deciding when to do things. Advanced Squad Leader added a lot of chrome to that, but the ASL Starter Kit comes back to the basics of deciding how and when to commit your forces. The most carefully crafted scenario on the original Squad Leader was The Guards Counterattack, because it would really introduce players for the first time to this concept of decision points. If you are the commander of a company or a battalion, deciding not just what to do but when to do it is so important.SP: So describe the design process of Squad Leader.JH: Well, I originally wanted to play a World War II miniatures game. I wasnt very satisfied with Tactical Game #3 (which would be acquired by Avalon Hill and become Panzerblitz). There were too many things that didnt feel right. You have to have individual tanks, and the key element was the squad.So I created a miniatures game in my basement. Frank Chadwick [of Game Designers Workshop] helped. We would play it all the time. We used Micro-Armor for the vehicles and counters for the infantry. I had just published Verdun [at the time, Hill was owner of wargame publishing company Conflict Games], and I had hundreds of counters with the numbers 4-4 printed on them. So I used those numbers as the standard counter, because I had them in the greatest quantity.I wanted to have firepower, movement, and morale factors on the counters. But the original counters only had two numbers on them. So I blew off the movement factor; I figured that everybody pretty much moves at the same rate in combat. Everything would work out in inches for movement. The key elements were firepower and morale.I decided the 4-4 baseline would be the Russians, because they were the most numerous in World War II. Everybody else would be determined in relation to the 4-4-7 Russian squads.SP: How did the first versions work?JH: They worked very well. From the very beginning, the design focused on the chronology of combat, the time factor. The chronology of what happens during combat is important, and more or less universal, no matter what era you are fighting in. Some troops would advance, others would give fire support. There was a constant attempt to soften up the enemythis was a constant from the Civil War to modern times. Softening up, attack, defensive fire (by the survivors of the attackers softening efforts) The attacker wants to get in close. He wants to take your position. This is what we focused on, honing that chronology of combat.SP: So how did it turn from a set of miniatures rules to a board wargame?JH: Well, I approached Avalon Hill with the design, because I was no longer running Conflict Games. I was freelancing. I went to Eric Dott [at Avalon Hill], and showed him the game. Eric Dott said, We dont do miniatures.This was like the famous Sean Connery line from The Untouchables, where he says, you brought a knife to a gun fight. Fuck! I was about to lose the sale. So I said, Its also a board game. Trust me, its a board game.

Lawrence Duffield (#4327 Total: 4557) Interesting, Mark. You state unequivocally that PanzerBlitz wasn't an influence on SL, yet in your quote, the ONLY game Hill mentions which was designed by anybody else is PanzerBlitz/aka Tactical Game 3. Care to qualify your unequivocalness?

Markus_St (#4328 Total: 4557) It shows up only as a negative example. Normally, "design influence" is used to refer to aspects that a designer wants to replicate or imitate, not those he wants to avoid.

Jay Muchnij (#4329 Total: 4557) It shows up only as a negative example.



...right after Hill denies there being any. ...right after Hill denies there being any.

Cory_w. (#4330 Total: 4557) Well, you needn't iterate it the next time it comes up, because you were misinformed.



Well at least that's settled ( for now )



Lets then just say,, it was the inspiration for SL. Well at least that's settled ( for nowLets then just say,, it was the inspiration for SL.

J.Peter Rich (#4331 Total: 4557) By far the best Pacific War game for a newbie is the old Avalon Hill "Victory in the Pacific." L2Design was supposed to update it before the company's demise, but it still plays quite well, and in an evening.

Rob Schoenen (#4332 Total: 4557)



Memoir '44 is a joke of a(n) (adult) wargame. It was GREAT for hooking my 8 year old son and 9 year old nephew (that was 4 years ago). It offers some rough historical info and can be fun to play because of the toy factor of the little plastic pieces. I've fond memories of this game. However, the strategy is ankle deep. I respect the designer and producers for making it what it is: Light beer and pretzels game with unbalanced scenarios. I'm going to come up with a drinking game variant for college students.



Twilight Struggle is a very good game. My (now) 12 year old and I just traded wins at this title over the last 4 days (yeah, we both won as the Soviets, what's new?). But it's NOT a traditional wargame and has nothing to do with WWII in the Pacific. There is no force allocation, command control, supply routes, etc. etc.. I'm just beginning to understand the complex strategies of this game and am really starting to enjoy it.



But let's look back to the OP's post and focus on what he's looking for. As much as I don't want to defend Mark (I usually want to throttle him after reading his posts on the ASL thread), he's right.Memoir '44 is a joke of a(n) (adult) wargame. It was GREAT for hooking my 8 year old son and 9 year old nephew (that was 4 years ago). It offers some rough historical info and can be fun to play because of the toy factor of the little plastic pieces. I've fond memories of this game. However, the strategy is ankle deep. I respect the designer and producers for making it what it is: Light beer and pretzels game with unbalanced scenarios. I'm going to come up with a drinking game variant for college students.Twilight Struggle is a very good game. My (now) 12 year old and I just traded wins at this title over the last 4 days (yeah, we both won as the Soviets, what's new?). But it's NOT a traditional wargame and has nothing to do with WWII in the Pacific. There is no force allocation, command control, supply routes, etc. etc.. I'm just beginning to understand the complex strategies of this game and am really starting to enjoy it.But let's look back to the OP's post and focus on what he's looking for.

Ted Raicer (#4333 Total: 4557)



Memoir '44 is a joke of a(n) (adult) wargame.



is not the same as



Light beer and pretzels game



And in fact Memoir is the latter, not the former, and with all the add-ons becomes somewhat more. The biggest problem is that what is clearly a tactical system is used in many scenarios to model entire battles, rather than small bits thereof, but then there are a zillion scenarios to choose from, and not all suffer from that issue.



Having said that, the basic C&C system shines best in the Ancients version from GMT (without plastic figures).



Ted I'm always happy to disagree with Mark. P.is not the same asAnd in fact Memoir is the latter, not the former, and with all the add-ons becomes somewhat more. The biggest problem is that what is clearly a tactical system is used in many scenarios to model entire battles, rather than small bits thereof, but then there are a zillion scenarios to choose from, and not all suffer from that issue.Having said that, the basic C&C system shines best in the Ancients version from GMT (without plastic figures).Ted

Mark Pitcavage (#4334 Total: 4557) No, it is not being used to "model" any battles. The "battles" are mere window dressing.

Grant LaDue (#4335 Total: 4557) So what? It's still a fun game to play within it's parameters.

Matthew Kirschenbaum (#4336 Total: 4557) No, it is not being used to "model" any battles. The "battles" are mere window dressing.



Yeah, I've heard that said about ASL before. Yeah, I've heard that said about ASL before.

Cory_w. (#4337 Total: 4557) Memoir '44 is a joke of a(n) (adult) wargame. It was GREAT for hooking my 8 year old son and 9 year old nephew (that was 4 years ago).



There are all degrees of Intellect amongst us Adults. There are all degrees of Intellect amongst us Adults.

Mark Pitcavage (#4338 Total: 4557) A crude and predictable attempt at diversion.

Lawrence Duffield (#4339 Total: 4557) The distance from Memoir '44 to a true simulation of war and the distance from Ardennes '44 (and others) to a true simulation of war isn't visible on a graph you can print on an 8.5x11 piece of paper. The distinction is mostly about how many "fiddly bits" you enjoy messing with.



The CC series, including Memoir '44, models zero sum conflict involving maneuver, strategy and attrition, the importance of terrain control, limits on information on both friendly and enemy capabilities, crude logistics (replacement & reorg and limits on operational possibilities) and various other real world planning factors, with a veneer of period flavor and tactical problems which have historical period analogs. Yeah, they're all heavily abstracted, but then so are all the more complex games we enjoy.



De gustibus non est disputandum. (Don't argue with Gus)

Patrick McGovern (#4340 Total: 4557) The distance from Memoir '44 to a true simulation of war and the distance from Ardennes '44 (and others) to a true simulation of war isn't visible on a graph you can print on an 8.5x11 piece of paper.



Try using a log scale.



Pat Try using a log scale.Pat

Lawrence Duffield (#4341 Total: 4557) Try using a log scale.



Or a microscope. Where there's a will, there's a way. Or a microscope. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Mark Pitcavage (#4342 Total: 4557) They don't actually model conflict, but more importantly, they don't actually model the battles/campaigns they ostensibly represent.

Markus_St (#4343 Total: 4557) Try using a log scale.



+1 +1

Ted Raicer (#4344 Total: 4557) The distance from Memoir '44 to a true simulation of war and the distance from Ardennes '44 (and others) to a true simulation of war isn't visible on a graph you can print on an 8.5x11 piece of paper. The distinction is mostly about how many "fiddly bits" you enjoy messing with.



I agree. In truth war games, like movies and novels, require the "willing suspension of disbelief" to turn hexes and counters into "paper time machines," and one's response is not simply a measure of the qualities of the game, but one's own ability to fill in the imaginative gaps. Viewed in that light, some people can't make the leap without the fiddly bits, while others can.



Ted I agree. In truth war games, like movies and novels, require the "willing suspension of disbelief" to turn hexes and counters into "paper time machines," and one's response is not simply a measure of the qualities of the game, but one's own ability to fill in the imaginative gaps. Viewed in that light, some people can't make the leap without the fiddly bits, while others can.Ted

Charles Vasey. (#4345 Total: 4557)





(newer msg: 212)

CSW Forum Boardgaming Recommend a Boardgame Go to: Boardgaming CSW Forum -- *Game Company Support Forum -- -- Memory Lane (non-participating or inactive game pu -- Blog Central -- -- Inactive Blogs -- -- Political blogs -- Boardgaming -- -- Euro, Family Games, Other -- -- Card Games: Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Sports, Family-style -- -- Game Theme & Other Era Discussions -- -- *INDIVIDUAL GAMES AND GAME SERIES Discussion -- -- -- Era: Between the Wars, 1918-1939 -- -- -- Era: Contemporary -- -- -- -- Cold War (WWII through 1990) -- -- -- -- One Less Superpower (post cold-war era) -- -- -- -- Potential Conflicts -- -- -- Era: Fantasy-Sci Fi, Other -- -- -- Era: Gunpowder -- -- -- -- American Civil War -- -- -- -- Pre-Napoleonic -- -- -- -- Napoleonics -- -- -- -- Post-Napoleonic -- -- -- Era: Pre-Gunpowder (Ancients & Medieval) -- -- -- Era: World War I -- -- -- Era: World War II (GAME SERIES) -- -- -- -- Advanced Squad Leader series (MMP) -- -- -- -- Grand Tactical Series (MMP) -- -- -- Era: World War II (INDIVIDUAL GAME) -- -- -- -- Eastern Front -- -- -- -- -- Lou Coatney games -- -- -- -- Global or Multi-Front -- -- -- -- North Africa/Med Front -- -- -- -- Pacific Theatre -- -- -- -- Western Front -- -- -- Unique systems (Multi-Era) -- -- PBEM Turn Center, Replays, After Action Reports -- Clubs & Organizations -- Computer & PBEM Gaming -- -- PBEM Games Report -- Consim Cafe (Chat, General Discussion & More!) -- -- Debates -- -- Polls -- Game Conventions -- -- Archived events -- -- CONSIMWORLD EXPO 2021, featuring MonsterGame.CON X -- -- THE WORLD BOARDGAMING CHAMPIONSHIPS -- Literary Corner -- -- Individual Book, Film, Battles, Leaders, etc. -- Magazine Publishers Forum -- -- Memory Lane (inactive magazines/periodicals) -- Marketplace -- Member Services & Help Desk -- Quick Help -- -- A Guided Tour of Web Crossing -- -- -- (1) Getting around -- -- -- -- Folders -- -- -- (2) Posting a message -- -- -- (3) Starting a new discussion -- -- -- (4) Becoming a registered user -- -- -- (5) Checking for new messages -- -- -- (6) User preferences