A spokesman for the special counsel declined to comment on Giuliani’s remarks. Giuliani didn’t say what the two topics were, and it’s probably worth taking his answer with a grain or two of salt. Giuliani previously said that he’d negotiate an end to the probe within a week or two, which didn’t happen, and the president said he was wrong about some aspects of a reimbursement to former fixer Michael Cohen. But Giuliani’s remarks make clear that far from ruling out an interview, the president’s team continues to work toward a meeting with Mueller. He also told Politico that Trump is beginning interview prep.

Rhetorically, however, Giuliani and Trump are pursuing a harder line. As the Mueller probe heads into its second year, it seems almost comical to say that Trump could ratchet up his approach to what he’s been calling a witch hunt for months now, yet there are signs of a genuine shift. For example, it was only two months ago that Trump first singled Mueller out by name in a tweet. Until this spring, Trump’s top two lawyers, John Dowd, his personal attorney, and Ty Cobb, a White House attorney, argued for cooperation with Mueller. Both have left Trump’s employ in recent months.

The new strategy, particularly as demonstrated by Giuliani on CNN, follows three prongs. First, impugn the investigators themselves. Second, argue that the investigation was tainted from the start. Third, argue that Mueller cannot indict Trump anyway. The Cobb-Dowd strategy began with the assumption that Trump had nothing to hide. The new strategy, however, seems to take as its premise that Trump is guilty of at least something.

Trump has taken the lead on the first part, focusing on the political ties of Mueller and his team to argue that the investigation is unfair and based on partisan motivation. In particular, the president has criticized the use of staffers who donated to Hillary Clinton and other Democrats. (The donations do not fall afoul of Justice Department rules.) Mueller, a lifelong Republican who has served presidents of both parties, is a tougher case to make, so Trump has simply lied, claiming for example that Mueller worked for Barack Obama for eight years. Mueller was FBI director for nearly five years under Obama, having been appointed by George W. Bush.

Giuliani, for his part, has referred to officials in the FBI and U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York, both of which he praised in the recent past, as “storm troopers.” (He also said he knew more about the case than FBI Director Christopher Wray, another career Republican who has said the investigation is not a witch hunt.) This lays the groundwork for an easy response, no matter how the Mueller probe proceeds or concludes: The White House will say it’s always been a Democratic vendetta.

The second part is to say there should never have been an investigation in the first place, and that the investigation is tainted. Earlier this week, The New York Times laid out in new detail the origins of the investigation into possible Trump collusion with Russia, stretching back to the presidential campaign, long before Mueller’s May 2017 appointment.