welcome to the ladies of the chains disc golf podcast joining me today are my friends stephanie roberts steph how you doing good good glad to be here and my friend crispy and paul crispy and how are you i'm hanging in there how are you i'm doing all right so we've got kind of a special episode today and we're we're gonna talk about disc golf and sexism yay so fun you know we get asked all the time why do we think that there aren't more women playing disc golf and this is the elephant in the room um and i've we've talked about it a little bit you know on the podcast before and i think i've been a little hesitant in recent years to really dive in um because on the on the one hand the disc golf community is a really fantastic place and by and large um i would i'll see if you guys agree with me i mean my experiences have been extremely positive right yeah yeah and there's always this kind of fear if we bring in the negative that that somehow dilutes the positive and it's not that it's just this really does need to be talked about um so we're going to talk about it today and a couple things up front here if you have your own media platform and you're listening right now whether that's you have your own podcast your own blog your own website whatever the case may be i really really encourage you to take up this topic there are lots and lots of women that want to talk about this there are touring pro women that want to talk about this there are men that want to talk about this and we're not going to get to all of it today on our little little podcast here um so yeah i would encourage you to to look into this yourselves i also want to give a trigger warning we're probably going to get into some discussion that may be triggering for people that um talk about sexual harassment and sexual abuse is triggering for and if that's you i want you to know that we love you we see you you are so not alone and it's okay for you to to walk away from this podcast right now we do have an interview up front that i would encourage you to listen to i think you'll be fine with that but then after that if you want to just turn it off for this episode that is okay with us um and again we we love you and your emotional and mental health are of the utmost importance to us all right so let's talk about kind of what made this our topic and kind of what happened this last week so there is a disc golf for women facebook group that all three of us have been a part of for a while now and a sort of newer disc golfer um from germany sarah krieg made a post calling out some of the comments that she was seeing on a jomez post and she had screenshoted them and she just was looking for an outlet a place to be like hey is you know what's up with this and the outpouring of comments on this post was a lot the most i've ever seen um so i actually got a chance to to talk with sarah about this post and so let's listen to that interview real quick and then we'll come back and start our discussion joining me now is sarah krieg and and sarah you made a post in the disc golf for women facebook group yesterday and in my four years at least in that group i have never seen a post so commented on because i think you really touched on something really important here that rings true for lots and lots of women so yeah do you want to talk a little bit about that post and why you made it sure first of all thanks for having me um this post was kind of a desperate um action i am i was carrying around this um this this this burden of having seen some sexist comments on on posts on the joma's facebook page and i had contacted jomas about these comments and i reported them and i did everything you're supposed to do and i figured oh those guys are so cool they would be appalled to see guys writing that kind of stuff on their page and they're gonna take it down and they'll be apologetic and make sure that i'm okay but none of this happened i tagged jomez in comments i resort sent them a direct message on facebook i sent them an email and it was just kind of ignored and that hurt more than the comments themselves and i didn't know where to go with with all those feelings and i didn't even know if that group was the right place for it because usually there aren't a lot of political topics discussed there um but i needed an outlet somewhere and i thought well they're gonna take it or leave it and maybe i'll get some some sympathetic comments maybe some comments disagreeing with me that happens too sometimes but i it needs to get out somewhere so that's why i posted that yeah well like i said it's so important and you know reading through all of the the comments this is not isolated right to this particular post that you brought light to this is something that we've all experienced a lot just in the community and and i think that we're gonna see actually a lot of discussion and a lot of change due to your post which is phenomenal um yeah what are and i wouldn't have expected that i'd i didn't sorry to interrupt but i didn't think there would be a lot of comments and i just needed to vent and i didn't think that people would be taking action like this so i'm actually pretty overwhelmed and grateful too oh i'm so glad to hear that and i think that speaks to such a good point because when it's not talked about a lot of us can feel sort of alone in our feelings right like maybe i'm just overreacting or maybe this is just me but by putting it out there it shows that it's it's so common and it's something that so many of us are dealing with and just again really needs to be talked about um yeah so what are what are some action steps what are some things that that you think um that can happen in a positive way here so i think that it helps just to make people more aware of this problem and just to get gain a critical mass of women complaining about this behavior because as you said we all see this stuff online all the time and maybe a lot of us think to ourselves well that's just the internet you know that's just how things are but then i think if you continue this logic well you get harassed on the streets you get harassed at the workplace are you supposed to just avoid all those spaces to avoid harassment or should we do we deserve to be free of of that stuff in all spaces of interaction and society so just having enough women complain about this i think will make some men think because there are plenty of men who just aren't aware but they mean well and they don't know what's going on and they can be our allies and and want to be allies and as far as um the comment sections go i think the the page hosts like jomez need to make sure they moderate those comment sections that's it and i've read plenty of comments uh from people who who run their own forums and pages and they they say that it's not that hard to do and jonas should have the resources to do this and yeah so that's important just to keep those spaces um safe for women i would understand if they if something slips through because they can't have their eyes on everything or so but at least if they would acknowledge to a female fan who makes them aware of this like oh yes we see the problem so sorry uh we're gonna try to take care of it please understand that we can't do it completely but we're working and maybe we should get another uh staff member or so but thanks for your message or anything you know yeah absolutely co-sign completely that's fantastic um so yeah tell me well i've got you a little bit more about your disc golf life and your disc golf journey and disc golf there in germany oh wow that's a big question i started playing this golf about three and a half years ago my my dj partner at the time because i'm also a dj he showed me uh disc golf he was talking about it constantly and talking about how when he like we were playing on saturday night and he would tell me that he was gonna get up the next morning to play and i'm like what you're gonna get up early after this to do what so um he kind of got me into it and um i got stuck on the sport and got addicted just because it's so nice to be outside and and not just walk around and be bored but to do something fun and and there were super cool people here in potsdam it's near berlin in the city where i live it's a very cool community actually i haven't experienced harassment on the course here which is why i was even more shocked by seeing that on jomas because jomas represents that culture to me also of you know just being cool and casual and you know um and this golf in germany is growing too there are lots of courses being built not all of them are tournament style 18 hole courses which you know is kind of a asterisk to that but a lot of people have started playing during the pandemic because it's such a good um contact free outdoor sport so we see a lot of people on the course and yeah there are tournaments and stuff so there's a growing scene here i would say yeah that's fantastic are there other women playing out there with you not not much i've there's one woman that i really like um and we play together sometimes we are in the same circle of friends but i basically only play with guys but they are super non-toxic really great guys um but i've seen women on the course lately and i have also taken that step which kind of takes some courage to to speak to them and be like hey so you're out here playing so you're a woman and i've i've created a chat group a messenger group that currently holds four women and we've been trying to find a date to play around together it hasn't worked yet because we have crazy schedules but the plan is already in the air that's wonderful well that's that's how it starts i mean we've talked to so many women in that same situation where you just have a few and then you start playing and then you know a couple more join you and a couple more so that's fantastic but i think you touch on something like so important there because i i started i came back to the sport you know close to the same time you did and like jomez and these other media companies but especially gem as is my was my view into what was out there right um because i just wanted you know when i got into disc golf to consume as much as i could and watching uh central coast disc golf and jomez and trying to find all the content i could you know those they whether they you know maybe understand or not they carry so much responsibility for getting the sport in front of eyes of the people um and what they put out there and what they you know again the comments section like this really does impact people who really care about the sport are coming to the sport and for some folks probably you know especially women they may see this and then just say it's not worth it you know like if this is going to be what the experience is going to be like maybe i'm you know not really wanted here and maybe i'll just go find something else to do right and even without um offensive comments it's hard enough as a as a woman to get into a male-dominated space like that and that takes courage already even if the men are super great right but if there's a toxic environment as well then that just makes it even harder yeah and i talk to a lot of well-meaning men who are super confused about the lack of women and disc golf and they ask me like what's going on why why why and can't be the the male players right because we're all super nice and like yes you are but there's still some you know mansplaining and just men being having a different attitude towards the sport being very competitive sometimes and that can be intimidating for a female beginner especially maybe later when you get better you you're you're super cool with uh competition and you enjoy it as well but when you get into it and you start playing with guys who are really good and chasing birdies and stuff and you're like oh played a six again on this par three and you just feel horrible yes well and i think you know i was talking something about this the other day too disc golf is such an individual sport right like when you go to play a team sport it's a little different because you've got this whole team that you're working with and the eyes aren't all on you but it takes a lot of courage when you're standing on that t-pad surrounded by guys you know who are watching all looking at you exactly that as much as we can influence the culture to make that a welcoming and okay place and and have more women playing that's really how we're going to get more women involved yeah and it's important to talk to encourage women to get other women to play like i've been trying to get my female friends into the sport and and just talking to women on the course it feels super silly i feel super awkward being like oh just oh so you're a woman i don't know if we would like each other or we have compatible personalities but i'm gonna try to talk to you anyway just because yeah feminism but you know that not all women maybe are interested in that kind of stuff but my experience has been that they are super happy if you talk to them they've been afraid to talk to you as well like why do we make it so hard on ourselves oh i love it and yeah just thank you again so much for taking the courage and taking the step um to make this post i think we're gonna again see more and more discussions about this we've already seen some positive change it's really exciting um and i think uh you know a lot of the top men pros in our sport are going to feel motivated to speak out more i'm seeing a lot of the touring pro women saying yeah this is a thing this is an issue we need to talk about so good on you sarah and yeah thank you so much for taking time to speak with me as well well yeah thanks for the invitation i'm happy to be on your podcast all right and we're back so i want to thank sarah again for taking some time to speak with me we're all in agreement that sarah's the coolest we kind of all want to go to germany and hang out with sarah now but anyway we want to visit you sarah yes and yeah listen to your djing and hang out and play some disc golf um so i do have an update jomez did finally respond to sarah and i'm going to read their response that she posted publicly it says thank you sarah your commitment to this is very much appreciated i just want you to know that we are taking this seriously and we're creating an internal action plan to address and prevent this as much as possible moving forward we are learning new lessons every day and full of gratitude for people like yourself that help guide us to create safer digital environments for the whole community and it appears a lot of the comments that sarah had screenshoted have been deleted i know she reported a lot of them so i don't know if that's from facebook and instagram um or if jomah has deleted them themselves um all right so let's let's kind of dive in here uh so i was heartened to see in the comment thread both crispian and steph and i was like hey i know them um so let's talk a little bit about why you were motivated to comment on sarah's post let's start with you steph um well she kind of what she was kind of calling out or like bringing to light in the post it wasn't the first time i've seen it like i've seen it before and kind of just chose to not do anything and to just kind of move past yeah um and i actually went and found like the post she was talking about and like there was more than just what she screenshotted yeah like it was it was even worse than that um and then like once you get into some of the sub threads it gets even worse and it was just mind-blowing and on facebook like i'm personally a top fan of jomas like i follow jomez i like their posts i share their posts because i want to grow exposure to disc golf so i support that and i was just blown away so like i had to not only comment on the disc golf for women post but on their post just being like hey why is this happening this way like yeah it just it blew my mind even though i've seen it before that it just was getting like kind of ignored to such a point that it was that getting that bad on one single post yeah yeah for sure what about you crispy and what what kind of drew you in there uh well honestly part of it was was uh because i kind of taken a facebook break um yeah here and there and and as you know i hadn't been terribly active the last couple years until recently again and what i would do is i you know do the things i need to do for some group you know group that i'm an admin for etc and then i would scroll for like five minutes and i happened to see that steph had commented on that and i love steph and steph and i i think have a lot of similar life views from obviously the conversations that we've had as friends and um new experiences and whatever and so when i saw that she commented that's what drew me in yeah and i saw and i started to read the original post and i'm like man this girl sarah is hitting my jam because i know that sounds terrible oh my sexism jam but but point being is you know this is something that my husband i was talking about for better for worse has always been kind of a part of me since like i was 11 years old i have this drive to just say this isn't okay and i'd gotten really kind of complacent um out of fear of reprisal and when i because i because i've unfortunately i had to get off twitter because of some really scary things that happened i've had nasty memes made about me on facebook i mean you know and so when that kind of thing happens it kind of sets your trigger point a little bit lower and so i had to take a step back and then seeing stuff you know and i'm reading this post and same thing i'm thinking like god i know we've talked about this before i mean there was even a gal on the post that said hey crispian haven't we gone back and forth about this on disc golf humor i think or one of those websites because there was you know something that was posted and you know so it's it i think seeing staff comment on it and then when she said you know hey why you know she kind of made a suggestion like why don't we all go and you know she was able to post where she went you know called it out and it kind of went from there obviously and you know between between all of us disc golf for women sarah creek we all know enough people that you know meeting everybody on there we all know enough people that eventually it just hit a critical mass point so let's be kind of real and frank about why this matters because a lot of people and obviously in our social media world these days it's like hey these are just words and you know you should just ignore the trolls and and all of these things so i'm about to say some words and i hope that everyone knows these words and we have some wonderful male listeners to the podcast but i'm going to put it out there in case there is anyone that doesn't know how every woman is coming at these sorts of comments and then things that happen in real life too at a very base minimum there is not a woman that you know that has not experienced being objectified by someone that was more powerful and stronger than her and that's your base minimum also your base minimum is that there is not a woman at least myself or anyone that i know that does not at a base minimum at least know a woman who has been a victim of sexual violence so that's heavy stuff and i recognize that is hard to bring up and that is a societal thing that is not just a disc golf thing but that that is the collective trauma that we're bringing here and also let's be frank there's lots and lots of men that have also been made to feel powerless by someone that was stronger by them that had experienced sexual trauma themselves and i think it's a lot of these men that perpetuate a lot of these comments and then far worse things as well i want you to get healed and healthy and free but i also want you to stop harassing women and you know when we talk about the disc golf community this is our this is our community this is our shared environment and you know like sarah talked about like it is a male-dominated space and we want everyone to feel free and respected and able to enjoy the sport and enjoy the environment but there's this reality that we see these comments over and over again and again we can get into this a little bit more too but it's not just comments it's been worse um so i i don't know it's it's kind of hard to know to go where to go from that um so the you know one of the places that comments get really out of control are on you know like the youtube chat right during the disc golf pro tour and i've had a youtube band hammer that was bestowed upon me by the disc golf pro tour i don't know sometime in the last two years just to help administrate and you know moderate when i'm available and i'm not always available and a lot of the things you don't see are pretty gross there are women when they play i know for sure the types of comments we're going to see and that is by no fault of these women they're just showing up to play a sport um i wouldn't see me shaking my head right now yeah and and you know today i was in the the chat room for the final six holes of fpo and it was great it was generally extremely positive it was wonderful but this morning i entered the chat i made my presence known and that helped a little bit but as soon as hannah was there commentating stuff went super south um so i think anyone who's in the disc golf community who looks at facebook posts who looks at the youtube chat will be shaking their head too we know that this is a thing yeah i mean um what it's been within the last six weeks that uh katrina allen created a private instagram for women only um for like this exact exact reason like women can't seem to even be present um in a lot of spaces not just disc golf without uh falling victim to like unwanted comments especially the sexual ones like it's it's very ridiculous yeah and you know and then not even and i know it's obviously a lot of it it's been sexual but just the straight up uh undercover misogynist doesn't i'm gonna put you in your place you're wrong what you're seeing isn't happening yes um your feelings are invalid you don't have a sense of humor it it goes even you know deeper to uh that when someone makes a sexual comment that's pretty blatant you can figure that out but all that other stuff is so undercover that makes people really thinking about others perspectives and kind of as you said what's going on in that person's history and their collective experience you know my husband and i were talking about why i'm so get so emotional sometimes about this and you know it's it's the cumulative effect of absolutely 41 years yeah yeah and um like we keep saying it's not just in disc golf when you deal with it at work on the way to work at the store like maybe some people are dealing it with dealing with it in their homes like it is really hard and like disc golf isn't the only hobby i've had where um this kind of comes up because like example i used to play more magic the gathering and i'd go to purchase supplies and have guys like ask me out on dates so they could teach me how to play and like things i just didn't need this is just kind of a thing that seems to happen where like yeah that men do the thing i i hate saying it's not all men we know that but sometimes that thing happens where they're like oh i need to teach you i need to like take you under my wing and i'm more powerful than you so let me guide you and you just that's where mansplaining comes in like that's the explaining portion of it i just say people always think that like then and if you say you know the you kind of went down the hole as my husband i say the rabbit hole i hate to keep mentioning him but i've known him 25 years so we have a lot of talks yeah but yeah and he's definitely a female ally um but you know going down that rabbit hole of okay here let me help you and then what that what that really is saying right and on plenty of occasions but you're taking that way too far that's not what was happening right and it's like no really though think about it yeah yeah well the three of us really really love disc golf so we're we keep coming back right yeah absolutely but there are these there are lots of women no doubt that i know that have been in these situations and it's just like well this just isn't worth it you know and when we get asked why don't more women play it's like well these male dominant spaces are hard to get into to begin with but let's just start with you know the comments and like it got you know into this whole free speech discussion and i think there's something to be said for sometimes you know letting the people say what they're going to say because then it's like okay well now i know what you really think so i'm going to make sure to not play with you and that's totally fair but you just showed me you really are exactly but silence is complicit okay so yeah go ahead i'm sorry i just have to tell you this because it's crazy that you said that i literally the phrase that has been running through my head all day because you said you know we were kind of all thinking about what what this was going to be like for us today and the phrase that coming through my head is at what point does complicity become or complacency become complicity right at what point do i then start to become complacent complicit in this situation yeah at what point do does my husband or any other man who maybe isn't a bad guy but doesn't say something what point are they then complicit in it and like let's make it really really simple like sarah what sparked this it was like oh my experience so far in disc golf has been great i love jomez obviously someone's gonna say something and no one says anything and there's this like kind of prevailing wisdom of don't feed the trolls just ignore it i'm sure all three of us growing up were taught that right like just ignore him he'll go away but absolutely especially oh and if you put a band in your face he likes you right exactly exactly yeah we can get more into the cultural aspects of this for sure but when you are in a being the public face of us of a sport and we can talk about how much responsibility you really have but there is this reality that if you're silent over and over again about these things they don't know your intentions someone just coming to like i worry about this all the time like early on when i was coming into the youtube chat like some female who's just like oh i kind of picked up disc golf and hey this is live this is really cool they come in and see the comments no one says anything no one corrects that person they don't know they don't know that the disc golf pro tour has really really good intentions for women they just don't and i think it's at the point where you know not to sound harsh but if we can't moderate the comments if we can't make declarations that hey you know what we're not okay with misogyny here and you need to know that if those kinds of statements aren't being made if we're just letting stuff go over and over again maybe the com maybe the chat doesn't need to be on maybe the comments don't need to be on because it is causing real harm both for women and for the sport uh and you know what for men misogyny hurts men and that's the other piece to this is that you know if we want to bring male allies in you know they have to understand that this hurts them just as you know not in the same way but just as much again cumulatively as it hurts us right you know it it tells us that the dad who stays home and takes care of his child because of the wife i mean you know you go into all the social stuff right that's what it does is that that continues to tell us that this is the role you have this is the role that you have and it hurts all of us absolutely well and i think with that too we also need to give people the space to change something that i absolutely also worry about a lot is perpetuating what's happening it hurts to feel powerless these you know microaggressions and macro aggressions are are painful but if we just do the same thing back to these guys i don't know that we're solving anything yeah that that definitely does not yeah right like we shouldn't go out now and objectify men and then be like yay we fixed it i know awesome but that's not how we fix fix this yes we need to speak up but we also need to give people space that a lot of guys just don't know right or a lot of guys are just looking for a place to belong and are like i'm so tired of having to like speak up every time my friend billy is just being a jerk you know or whatever the case may be um really the ultimate goal here is just mutual respect and a safe place for everybody um to be able to enjoy the sport but if we're never calling it out if we're just ignoring it if we're just pushing it off to the side that's not really solving anything either it's balance and you know that's i was having a discussion with somebody we literally just kept going back back to that well but if you say something but if you don't say something but if you say something you know and it is finding that balance of okay now i say something now you know better right if you choose to do something with that knowledge i'm i'm there for you homie right if you choose not to you know then then chances are if you say it again in front of me i'm still going to call you out exactly and there's going to be certain people that need to be removed from the community either for a while or forever and that's that's just how it is like if you are actually acting on these words that you're putting out there then that's you don't get to be a part of the community anymore you know like we can't also just allow people to continue to hurt others um and it just takes i think a real effort from everyone to be aware like something i was thinking about when i woke up at 2 am this morning i was thinking about this episode but i was thinking about racism and like i don't want to be racist no one wants to think to themselves boy i'm racist this feels good because it feels terrible but because people pointed things out to me because i learned things over the years because i listened to all these voices i realized there is absolutely racism in me it is a result of the culture and the systems that i grew up in but hopefully with that recognition i can check myself each day and keep working on myself to make a you know more loving more accepting better community and better society and i think that's ultimately what it comes down to uh definitely i think i think with like feminism specifically a lot of women don't realize how they have their own internalized misogyny and so sometimes like um the specific jomas post that kind of sparked this is a good example of where even a lot of women were quick to blame it on the girl being featured and choices she had made with her clothing and her personal life when that has zero zero to do with it at all yes yep now that's such an important point like crispy and i you know we're kind of joking i was like the last time i was at rosedale there was a whole group of men with they didn't have their shirts on and i was able to you know be respectful and not make cat calls at them it was amazing and that's the thing that i worry about too is that kind of with you know some of the the reactions from these companies and stuff we're not asking you to stop supporting women we're not asking you to like take that post down that's not the issue like the issue is that we need to be able to look at you know a woman and talk about the disc golfing and not you know resort to all of these just really gross over-the-line comments yep we can all have thoughts it doesn't mean we have to put them out there for everybody for sure yeah exactly you don't have to you don't have to put those words out there in the world you know and and i think you remember me you guys both probably remember me saying on that on the disc golf for women post you know um replace sexism with racism would there have been different response and the other thing is you know is that you know i made the statement and i'll say it again you know even if they hadn't taken down any comments even if they left them up and you know did whatever some sort of statement of intolerance was was much is would be much more well received than silence yeah absolutely yeah a simple statement of we don't tolerate this this is not i mean for goodness sakes what was it disgulature made the the you know blm um content you know and that's that's i don't i'm trying to think of the word i want to say that can actually be said on the air that's a brave move yes um to do that and they got pushback but they still did it because it felt like it was the right thing absolutely yeah i think it was last weekend i watched the live coverage and when he was making the statement like one of the first chats was like oh we don't experience racism and disc golf and then like all the other chats were racist so i was like what are you talking about it's right there like i have to hide the chat i can't stand seeing this like right didn't you say steph your racism is showing or something but yeah like i posted a thing that like on my facebook that was like uh it's right there because it's just like this this issue with sexism in disc golf where everyone wants to ask how do we get more women in the sport or why don't more women play but no one wants to actually pay attention because even just last night when i was hanging out with a friend i saw in an innova post i don't i saw it last night i don't know what day it was from it was just a post with a girl throwing and a guy had commented about how hot yoga pants are yeah and a guy corrected him and was like oh this is why my wife doesn't want to play in public and the guy changed his tune to well yoga pants aren't appropriate at all it reminded me of being single and like getting a message where it's like hey you're hot i want to hang out with you you want to be like no thanks yeah and then go straight well you're ugly anyway you're going to die alone it's it's just it's it's there like yep that's kind of the bad thing about social media is it it gives people access to make these comments but it does give us also access to see that this is what's happening and this is the environment we're creating and we need to remember someone who's new that's just getting into disc golf they're not gonna go straight to the course to meet people they're gonna go to those facebook groups and those media pages and instagram just that's where they're going to go to figure out what they want to do and who they want to play with and it's a turn off if especially sensitive to these kind of issues you know as you said stuff i mean if that's their first foray yeah and and in a male-dominated sport if that's your first foray you know with thank goodness there's a lot of you know women's groups out there now that you know you're going to walk away because you're not yet as passionate about it maybe or you're not as as intertwined with the community maybe and i don't know how we solve the defensiveness um i think it's something you just have to accept that it's human nature like any time someone's corrected there's that kind of gut response of being like you know how dare you come at me um and hopefully then we can like de-escalate and move on um because it is crazy that you know some of the posts then calling out misogynistic comments get more comments than the misogynistic comments themselves right and then it turns into this whole like pc culture can't you take a joke and then all of these microaggressions and for the reasons you know we've discussed like you are not entitled to to be a jerk because you don't want to deal with politically correct culture um and that drives me crazy i don't think people uh pay attention enough too to like what freedom of speech actually means right you can say whatever you want and you don't go to jail for it that doesn't mean you face your consequences out in the real world at all if you say hateful things whether your comment gets deleted or someone calls you out those are consequences you're still living a life where you have freedom of speech because you said the thing and you're still there you're not in jail right you didn't get killed for it like people people act like having their comment deleted on like kind of a private platform to begin with like facebook isn't right you know whatever that it's a company like that you're really suffering a very minor consequence for saying something that's very hateful and disrespectful so like it's really not that big of a deal in regards to like the constitution right that you pointed that out honestly because that is the biggest well it's it goes from can't you take a joke to free speech is usually what ends up happening and and as said i mean there are consequences we're not you can go stand anywhere you want and yell that lady disc golfer suck you know but you don't get to do it here because you can go do that out in the world right you still get flap your lips well then that gets into this gaslighting that happens right where you that doesn't happen it's your fault that your feelings are hurt it's your fault that you're coming at this with all of your background history of sexual violence like you just want to be made mad you just want to get hurt you're just looking for me exactly or you you dressed like that you were asking for it yeah and in disc golf this is a real issue because where even when you're dressed according to pdga code like an athlete that might not be acceptable enough for some people apparently based on the way that that they react and disc golf if anybody's ever played disc golf in 105 degrees in the midwest like come talk to me then about what i'm wearing and because and because women are coming with all of this collective baggage collective trauma disc golf is unique that it is an individual sport and that makes it even more scary because if you're on the tea pad and all eyes are on you you know i think that's part of the reason like it i think it's easier to go join a team sport as a woman you know like a woman's team because you've got everyone there with you right um it doesn't feel as exposing as often our sport is you know that's that's just the reality of it yeah can i i just want to say like on a personal one you can you know i i take it or leave it but you know i tend to wear a lot of leggings and whatever and i've always said and then i wear like tearaway pants over them usually if it's cold because they're comfortable and i don't like to eat restricted and you know whatever and that being said i have had a lot of comments made about certain aspects of my figure and well intended and i'm going to put that in quotations right or not meaning oh i'm paying you a compliment there have been times and i'll use an example when i run across a group of mob golfers it's almost always all guys or one or two guys and they let me play through i am so conscious of whether or not they're staring at my butt because at least two or three of them have either said something or i know they know somebody who said something or fill in the blank and and as you said that's an extremely and and you guys know me i mean i'm an extremely strong-willed yep selfish heard person and even i'm like up there like what do i you know because i have that in my head like they're completely you know and i just i don't think i don't think that that's something that's not going to happen because people are people and human beings have urges and feelings but the reality is is that because of that as you said that culture around that because it's been said so many times it sets us all up to then be anxious and nervous and already kind of have that set point at a certain place right so for good intentioned men let's talk about some things that you can do i know it's really frustrating because it's like i just don't even know what to say but i promise you it's not that hard it's okay to just not talk about a woman's appearance to her she's gonna be okay i promise she's going to feel much much more like you value her when you say things like hey nice shot and you leave it at that and it's not hey nice shot would you like to know how that could be better or that was actually a good shot or actually you're pretty good right i hate the actually and i i i mean i gotta give a shout out to the many men that i have been on cards with that just do this perfectly you know and it absolutely has happened to me where it's just like i know i made a good shot they say it i'm like yeah it feels good i'm glad we're celebrating this moment together you know like that is okay but i gosh i can't tell you how many times i've seen this over the years too where a man will compliment a woman's shot and then feel like that gives him license to say something about her body no like justin here let me put that in there yeah that's exactly what i was thinking like it works if you do it this way it's like or you could just not just stop just nodding is always an option and i get it like there's women i play with that i see potential in and i'm like i want to tell you all these things about how you can be better because you're going to be amazing you know so it's not like you're coming from a bad place but if a woman wants some help she will ask you that's it just don't worry about it it's fine like no woman's gonna be mad if you say that was good shot even you know like people compliment um fpo's form that's fine form is totally a thing in disc golf it is okay to talk about women athletes like athletes that's okay it's okay to critique them like that's fine you know like just like we do with the male pros and that's just a thing about sports right that like oh man i think that shot really got into her head there that that's fine there's nothing wrong with that it's just when you cross the line that we're gonna make it about her body or make it about weakness or make about any of these things that then just perpetuate all this other stuff that we're dealing with you mentioned weakness and i think that's the you know with the with the youtube post that i think that was uh uh holly finley you know and a certain gentleman and it he was in i guess in his own way talking about form but it really went into really a diatribe about all how basically all women golfers suck yeah and that was the real intent of that comment let's be honest it wasn't form it was here let me now have a platform to go name by name and he named what seven eight nine people name by name and tell you what i think about all these women golfers which then to me again shows your colors that what you're doing is really looking to put women in their place and why you know and again i think if i put on my psychologist hat not that i have a degree in psychology but that i can only think that they're trying to be made they're trying to feel big because they've been made to feel small right sure and like that i mean hey i have a math degree in social work so yes that's true awesome people for people that's how that works so much and that you know that phrase is what has gone through my mind over and over again this week of hurt people hurting people and so again like with some of these solutions there are so many ways to attack this in a positive way and it includes affirming men like we can't just pick you know put on our feminist hats and be like men suck oh well you know like that doesn't really fix anything but we can you know do this affirmation and respect both ways and make things better steph i want to ask you a question because i know your uh spouse you know i meant it you know obviously met him enough times he seems really really supportive do you think that there's something that he that triggered him to be such a supporter or i mean because i i just see it in him so much you know he's so he's it's probably good so right when we both started getting into like competitive play at all like even leagues like diva league was kind of the first thing we saw out so i don't know if that's why and it might just be too like he's not a female player so he doesn't experience it as much as i do but he plays events that i play and hears comments like when he plays with like there was a particular tournament a couple years ago where every single card at that tournament was a card of five so there was backups upon backups upon backups and like my card was three of us wreck women and two rec men and one of the recommend was no offense hands down like through the shortest throws was taking the most strokes and taking the most time but still the card behind us were that's where brett was my husband one guy was talking about how like women shouldn't be allowed to play the same tournaments as men because it slows the whole tournament down so like he doesn't need me to even come to him and say huh babe here's what i experienced today he's hearing it and experiencing it in one way or another himself and then being involved with like the divas it's just kind of easy to want to support yeah yeah the place that needs the support not that men's disc golf isn't important and disc golf as a whole doesn't need the support but there's definitely less women at turn like there's tournaments i've played like i can't even in my mind count some of my pdga wins like on my career wins because i was the only female in the entire tournament i have some of those trophies it's like i guess it counts it's up there it makes my ratio of wins to events look good it's not really yeah in reality i've only had like three actual sometimes i have wins go back through and like click on the different tournaments i've won and see like was that a against one person or was it two people like because there's just so few women it's a lot different than like guys usually always have like 15 plus if not 40 plus in their division so i tell you my dude asked me today he said you know because he he i'll be honest my husband is a hermit and he also works 5 000 hours a week so a lot of times he's not around when i'm playing but he's so he doesn't see a lot of it but he's like i'll do whatever you need me to do babe and he's like what do i need to do and i you know as you said yeah some of it's just being there and and you know whatever but i think it's also men calling out other men and i think that's really important um and that's really hard for women to do so think about how hard you know for that that's hard for men to do so think about how hard it is for women to do that you know and the research is very very clear from like the business world that men listen to other men yes and i think we can you know talk about some positive action steps uh piggy attaway posted a wonderful thing disc golf for women that i'm going to share um you know ahead of this uh release of this podcast um that has just so many good action steps so read that check out the ladies of the chains facebook page it's public you'll be able to see that so one of the things that i think is going to be really helpful in this is is exactly kind of to your gial's point is the more men that players respect saying something you know like eric oakley that's not cool right eric oakley put out a thing which is awesome because there are going to be some men that will listen to other men that are not going to listen to women and it i mean it's logical right if somebody already is having some issues with women and issues with making harassing statements that they think should be fine you know like why are these women all getting mad at me it's their fault not my fault when someone they respect says something that is gonna carry so much more weight and so yeah i would just encourage all the guys i don't want you to like get in fist fights or whatever but just be like hey that's not cool you know like i've been challenged again you know yeah like i've been challenged myself with some of my friends that i know are well-meaning and i know their hearts are good and they will tell a racist joke and i'm getting in the habit of being like you know it's just not cool we shouldn't do that and then that's it and hopefully they think next time about whether or not they taste you know tell that joke or maybe they ask me dude becca why like what's the big deal and i could say well hey here's some things about why that's a big deal and i think that's when we start seeing change and that's when we start creating a more you know accepting safe environment for people um and i think we just need to be aware that it's going on too because we've talked a lot about words because that's kind of what spurred this whole thing but again there are men that take action on these words sometimes it's just online bullying with direct messages or online stalking or whatever the case may be but it spills over into real life this does happen you need to be aware you need to know that it's a thing i'm sorry i just and we don't even need to go to that you know the reality is yes it is a thing and that's the worst possible end of that spectrum yes but it's you know we also need to understand that words actually do matter yeah like from a psychological sociological perspective words color your you know your bias comes out in your words and it colors how you treat people and it colors what your views are and when you say words to someone they can actually do harm you know there's this this you know saying that it's easier you know it's um i think easier to to break a child than it is to build up an adult and and what they're talking about is words when you break somebody down with work absolutely um so just support one another out there you know and say nice words yeah say nice words well that's the thing is like the you know to your exact point crispy and like words are powerful like don't be afraid to say affirming things just not about the booty you know like that is not actually affirming come on now safe yeah affirming words about the actual disc golf thing or about someone's kind action someone having class on the course you know someone having good sportsmanship all of these things are perfectly okay and wonderful to talk about whatever yeah yeah well and i think that that really is as much as we laugh about that's the funny thing is like i know that we've all heard it like that you know oh i thought you would think that was funnier i thought you would think that's flattering or you know um you know and i there once again when somebody knows so if somebody tells you something hurts them yes you can't tell them that they're wrong you know and another lady disc golfer and i were having a discussion about that and she you know said that and of course i've heard that and you know and just kind of again sticks you know so if you can say those good things like you said and and be affirming you know i'm proud of you that this was your first tournament and even you know and you know you have to say even though but you know in your head i mean that person may have thrown 153 right because i've done it um 121 i think was my max but anyways um but you know you stuck it out right well that's all you need to say but let's build up not tear down be aware that there are things happening in your community call it out when you see it you know that we make excuses a lot of times for family members for friends that's just johnny being johnny and he's always going to be like that there's always going to be people like that right and recognize that johnny might be taking action on some of those words and believe it believe women when they tell you um and we can you know do better that's it that's all it comes down to you kind of mentioned the topic of like self-reflection too which is i mean you didn't necessarily say those exact words but it's you know sort of examining like oh gosh i said this thing and now i realize better because i learned something new and so having that ability to be self-reflective and being willing to change your perspective on things you know like you said allow for change you know so being able to be self-reflective and say this thing really isn't serving me or the people in my community so i need to stop doing it yep like something i had thought about back when val jenkins was inducted into the hall of fame there were lots of posts about her being inducted into the hall of fame and a lot of those posts had comments commenting on her body yeah not all of the other things she's done for disc golf like that her body has nothing other than she uses her body for difficult it has no relevance to just a powerful person yeah yeah yeah and i like i not that like any woman is like more important to me than another but like she is it's so obvious like what she's done for the sport i was surprised that even her kind of fell victim to like those same kind of comments and uh cat allen kind of brought to uh my attention i never really thought about it that we also have like women under age in our sport yes oh god who like sexism is bad enough and then if you are carrying over that same culture to women who aren't even 18 mm-hmm here let me indoctrinate you all right another area yeah and again there's this topic is so deep and broad there's so much more to be talked about in terms of i mean you bringing up val you know makes me think about her innova contract and why she left and just parody yeah and absolutely exactly you know and we've been fighting that for decades title ix has been a thing for how long i mean you know i'd have to look it up i know i sound you know uneducated but decades yeah we've been dealing with equity and parity in sports right absolutely and it's not just our sport but our sport's the one that we care the most about so that's why we aren't just working it's a microcosm of the world you know the things that happen in the world still happen in our sport whether we like to admit it or not absolutely so but and you know a lot of these words then translate to all these bigger problems like it kind of starts with general attitudes and then it just can spiral from there into how much you know women actually are getting paid and how many views they get because of how many women we get in the sport that keep getting turned off from the sport by the words that people are using and it's it's just this cycle and everybody knows we just need to like name it and claim it and really deal with it if we want to move forward when you say everybody knows but i hate to say it that's not true because i've i've had a discussion with somebody where they've told me women don't get women shouldn't get paid as much into assault because they don't bring in the viewers people don't nobody watches women's just golf and i'm like you know who watches women's disc golf women so if we put the money and the time into it we build it then you're actually going to find out that right you know there is a i hate to say it but everybody wants to know what's in it for me these days there's a profit in it right yeah you know take the time to really think about it i mean if you have to think about it from a business model for goodness sakes do it that way i don't care right now yeah i know i talk a lot because this is something that's very close to my heart but i you you touched on this very very quickly and very early on and i appreciate it which is trauma yeah and i think that you know if we want to talk about action steps and ally ship anybody in any any sport any person in life can benefit from from becoming what they call trauma informed yes which is having an understanding that if and we all at this point have experienced a collective trauma in this world you know whether you want to admit it or not but you know if you are informed that anybody could probably be a victim of trauma that is going to inform how you treat them yes absolutely you know and my reactions and my husband and i have talked about my extreme reactions you know which i've had very recently to things stem from that and i think if people understand that i had somebody ask me about something why i got so upset about something and i said because it goes back to and i was able to say you know this is where it comes from yeah and i think that that's something that male allies or female anybody can really benefit from is just really being informed of the fact that as you said every single woman that you know in this sport and you know probably at least half of the women in the sport know somebody who's been a victim of violence or has been a victim of sexual violence you know being informed of that in and of itself is going to make you a better ally absolutely well thank you to both of you for for going through this you know difficult topic with me and i love both of you and i appreciate you so much um and you're in my life because disc golf and that's fantastic and i i look forward to future discussions amongst us amongst the greater community at large and hopefully you know we can just keep working at it keep moving keep working at being aware and and trying to create a community that we can all be a part of and that can be very inclusive so thank you yeah all right thank you for listening to the ladies of the chains disc golf podcast we'll be back in october for one more episode it's been a weird year y'all i mean that collective trauma that you know crispian's talking about boy has it been a year take care of yourself be good to yourself be good to one another play some disc golf we'll catch you next time