The Morning Joe set got heated on Wednesday as Chris Matthews sparred with Joe Scarborough over his characterization of the government (during an NSA discussion). As Scarborough countered Matthews’ civics lesson, he further railed against all those who find the surveillance issue “complicated” now but were quick to label President George W. Bush the “devil.”

“The government has always lied to us,” Scarborough asserted. A skeptical Matthews was surprised to see Scarborough referred to the government “like it’s some monolithic thing that we have nothing to do with” — when in fact we elect our lawmakers, and the government has separate branches.

“Every congressional office, every Senate office is its own entity. Every agency is its own entity, including the IRS,” Matthews pressed. “They’re at war most of the time fighting over turf. They have their own cultures and their own politics and motivations. To say the government, Joe — just like you said, it’s all one big monster — it’s just not true, and you know it.”

Scarborough countered that he didn’t actually say that, as Matthews asked him what the term government means to him. Quipping about “civics class,” Scarborough argued that in times of war, people line up behind the chief executive and give him whatever he wants.

“I didn’t say the government is a monster,” Scarborough reiterated a few minutes later.

Meanwhile, Mika Brzezinski said the NSA issue isn’t black and white. At which point, Scarborough was off:

“As the only Republican, I think, in this area code right now, it sure was hell as simple when George W. Bush was president. Everybody sure got the long knives out when George W. Bush was president … all of these questions were so simple, Mika. It was so black and white. George Bush and Dick Cheney, they were evil. Now suddenly, we’re launching drone strikes into countries, killing civilians, where we aren’t even at war … and we’re killing Americans, and suddenly everybody goes, ‘you know what, this is such a complicated thing.'”

He further urged caution, referring to “tapes” he had from previous years of people “talking about how George W. Bush was the devil for doing things that Barack Obama has expanded upon.”

Take a look, via MSNBC:



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