YESTERYEAR



Which country can claim to be the World's oldest democracy? Russell Campbell, Dunedin, New Zealand Lots of them can. And do. Greece has a pretty good claim having invented the concept in the first place. However, long spells as an Ottoman colony or under military junta might put it out of the running if you're looking for longest continuously democratic country. Britain has a decent claim but it depends what you mean by democracy. As Rowan Atkinson put it in Blackadder: "take Manchester for instance. Population: 60,000. Electoral roll: 3". America frequently claims to be but this is because they define democracy so narrowly and in their own image such that on their criteria they're the worlds only democracy and on any other criteria they still aren't and never have been. Seth, Edinburgh, Scotland Perhaps Iceland can - their parliament, the Althing, is the oldest one still in use. It was formed in 930 by Vikings. Johan van Slooten, Urk, Netherlands The Native American people of the Six Nations, also known by the French term Iroquois and who know themselves as the Hau De-no Sau-nee (People of the Long Houses) claim to be the oldest living participatory democracy. Their homeland, country, nation or however you'd like to classify it as, was in the region now known as New York State, between the Adirondack Mountains and Niagara Falls. The other tribes included in the Six Nations also included the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas, joined in the 18th Century by the Tuscaroras, who did not have a vote. Archeological evidence indicates the Iroquois had lived on their lands for a very long time, with the earliest longhouses dated to at least 1100 A.D. Although there is no precise date for the establishment of the league, The Six Nations claim to have enjoyed a system of consensus government for over 800 years, well established long before the arrival of the Europeans. Founded to maintain peace and resolve disputes between its members, the Six Nations primary law was the Kainerekowa, the 'Great Law of Peace' which stated, simply, that Iroquois should not kill each other. They had a written constitution, laws dealing with ownership and trade routes and a funeral rite that allowed shared mourning at the passing of leaders from other tribes. From 1660, the nations combined to form a united front in negotiations with the European settlers. With the focus on maintaining peace with their neighbours, the Iroquois tribes were free to develop their predominantly agragian society. Their leaders were chosen, by their women, for their knowledge of the earth and their skills at providing for their villages. John Maguire, Dublin, Ireland A great many can claim it. It rather depends what you mean by democracy. The Isle of Man has the oldest Parliament, but it has not always been elected by universal suffrage. Did the UK have to await the extension of the franchise to 18 year olds? Or was it 1929, when women got the vote on the same terms as men - at least for Parliament, only householders voted in local authority elections at the time? Switzerland has an ancient confederation, but governments never get voted out of power, due to the permanent coaltion. The same four parties have been in power since 1959, two of them for over a century. Switzerland, like California, makes great use of direct democracy, at both confederal and cantonal level. But in some cantons women didn't get the vote until the 1970s. Australia and New Zealand were both early to give women the vote, but neither elects their Head of State. Quentin Langley, Woking UK If we mean by that, 'Which country has ensured that all adult citizens regardless of sex, race, or ethnicity, may choose reprentatives to exercise the powers of government longest?', then the answer is New Zealand. Universal adult suffrage was first established there in 1893. Fragano Ledgister, Atlanta, USA Seth, I'm surprised at you. Britain does not have a claim to being the world's oldest democracy, as it has only existed since, at the earliest, 1707. Cameron King-Black, Glasgow, Scotland NZ wasn't the first to have universal suffrage. By 1893, universal suffrage had been established on the Isle of Man for 12 years (1881). Iceland is generally held to be the oldest Parliament, starting in 930. The oldest continuous Parliament is the Tynwald (Isle of Man), which started in 979, although its roots go further back. Laura, Douglas, Isle of Man The Isle of Man has the oldest continuous parliament in the world. The Althing, the Icelandic parliament, is older, but it did not function for a number of years, so it is not the oldest continuous government. Arthur D. Armstrong, Medford, Oregon, USA I'm biased, of course, but the United States has the oldest continuous democracy, dating back to 1776 when the 13 states declared independence and eventually gave the British a mighty whoopin'. Since then, for 231 years, every leader has been elected and there have been no kings, no queens, no military juntas, no conquerors and no dictatorships. End of discussion. Bob, Milford Michigan I might be biased as well Bob from Michigan but you talk rubbish. Britain actually won more battles in the Revolution and when they faced just the US alone it was the US that got a 'whooping'. Your claim that that the US has the oldest democracy frankly does not hold any water as Britain goes back to 1707 so do your Maths. I would say the Isle of Man has a good claim, Don't know if England on it's own has a claim? Glenn, Crowmarsh Gifford UK Bob from Michigan I must comment on some of your statements : 1) The American Colonists hardly gave the British a “mighty whoopin”, but rather it was a joint effort, as are most things. Many countries directly or indirectly affected the outcome of the American Revolutionary War. Most of the gunpowder used by the Continental Army came from France. Direct French support starting in 1788 and before the wars end the Spanish and Dutch were fighting the British as well. Not directly in ally with the Americans, but the combined navy of these countries exceeded that of the British fleet and keep the British busy on many fronts. Catherine the Great of Russia created the League of Armed Neutrality which put further pressure on British resources and allowed supplies to reach the war engaged colonies. Meanwhile, the US Continental Army often took the stand of conducting a war of attrition rather than engagement in open decisive conflicts. Indeed, militarily speaking, Washington had only one real decisive military victory: at Yorktown. The rest were great public relations (e.g. his crossing of the Delaware), but of little military value. Yet the overall strategy won. Yorktown did not end the war, but it and the other ongoing pressures brought the British to the bargaining table. 2) The existing US government was not established in 1776, nor was it even the start of the Revolutionary war, which started in 1775. 1776 was just a year of declaring independence; it did not mean instant government formation. The Constitution, which forms the basis for the modern US government only came into effect, by its own self definition, in 1788 and the government it defined started operations on March 4, 1789, even though Rhode Island did not ratify the document until the next year. Thus we must decrease your accounting to 218 or 219 years of continue government depending on which date you select. 3) From 1861-1865 there were two governments that claimed sovereignty over 11 southern states, and those 11 states had no say in the federal election of 1864, nullifying their presidential democratic contribution in that election. After the Civil War the US congress considered the southern states as conquered provinces and set up marital law during post war reconstruction. Thus only a geographical part of the US can be said to have participated in a continual democracy, without military rule, since 1789. The ruling of Texas vs. White, in 1869, states the Supreme Court's position that the Union was indivisible and indissoluble matters little, as the above mentioned exclusion of democratic contributions can not be undone. Kevin, Los Angeles US Not to mention that the United States is not a democracy, but a republic. A minor point, but one that is constantly mistated. Joe, Marital law in the southern U.S.? Does that mean southern bachelors couldn't vote before 1861? Jamie, Bath, England Has no-one mentioned Iceland? Their parliament, the Althingi, was created in the early 11th century. Dave, Portsmouth UK In 1776, what percent of the world's nations had democratic systems of any kind and no royalty? Switzerland and Iceland qualify...what others were there? Eager for your answers. Having been assaulted by those who like to do as the neighbors do, rather than follow their own conscience, I think it is stunning that the USA didn't follow the crowd and become a kingdom but rather created their own unique "democratic" government. Jacqueline Kroschell, New York, USA Everyone could have saved a lot of typing responding to Bob with these two words: "Gerald Ford". He wasn't elected. He was appointed. Democracy is not my beloved birth-nation's strong suit. Our strength lies in finding just how far we can push the boundaries of Democracy. Turns out it's pretty stretchy. Chad, Austin, TX USA Funny that some claim America have the oldest democracy, even more so since up until the early 60's people of color and women were not eligible to vote Philippe, London UK Technically, black people could vote in 1870, with the ratification of the 15th amendment, and women could vote in 1920, with the ratification of the 19th amendment. It is true that black people were pretty much kept away from the polls until the 60s, but from a strictly historical standpoint they were given the right much earlier. And women could vote earlier than 1920 in some states. Merideth Wilson, Orangeville United States Philippe, you might want to check your facts on that one... David, United States Actually I have heard that Faeroe Islands has the oldest democracy. But they are still under the Danish, so I do not know how that would count and I do not know when they formed their parliament. Gudni, Reykjavik Iceland Finland gave full rights to women to vote in 1906 and they were also good for being candidates in every elections on that date. That's earlier than anywhere else. That can be called oldest democracy by modern means. Remember, we had no slavery, nor was the right only in paper like for black Americans till 1960s. Pekka, Finland Oldest Democracy of the World- Malana Nalla, India Malana is a tribal village, which is considered as the oldest democracy in the world. The permission must be obtained by the head of the villagers to visit the important places in the village and one have to be very careful to not touch the untouched places (sacred places and monuments). In that case the villagers can claim the fine to the person who touched the places intentionally or not. Simran Jagdev, Chandigarh, India If you use Universal Suffrage as your guide, the prize goes to New Zealand. The Faero Islands, Isle of Man and the various Native American democracies are automatically disqualified due to the fact that they're not actually independent countries. Iceland only regained its independence in 1944. Using the looser standard of a democratic or republican form of government regardless of the extent of the franchise, the world's oldest continuous Democracy is The Republic of San Marino, who repulsed their last would-be conqueror in 1739 (unless you count the retreating German Army and pursuing American Army in 1944, which amounted to no more than armed trespassing). The American states didn't win their independence until 1781, and the Swiss cantons had a wildly unpopular and less-than-democratic "Helvetic Republic" imposed upon them by the French Republican armies from 1798 to 1803. Scott Alberts, Philadelphia, USA The USA cannot claim to have been a democracy prior to the abolition of slavery after the civil war. I'm sorry, the two just don't go hand in hand even if some states of the union had abolished slavery before the war. If Australia and New Zealand were early in giving the right to vote to women, but are not functioning democracies because they don't elect their heads of state, then that same situation exists for every member state of the British Commonwealth, including Britain, including the Isle of Man. Either the queens' representative or, in the case of Britain, the Queen is officially head of state and unelected (even if they are just figureheads these days...they cannot really exercise power over elected governments any more). This also applies to any other constitutional monarchies like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain and Belgium. Monarchs are heads of state but nevertheless unelected. The biggest black mark against Australian democracy has of course been the substandard treatment of Australia's indigenous peoples, also known as the Aboriginals. They were not even counted in the census or given the vote till 1967. The indigenous question remains Australia's greatest failing as a democratic state and it is an issue which cannot be ignored, much as we have swept it under the carpet in the past. Still all democracies have their bete noirs which they prefer to sweep under the carpet. Bete noirs must always be dealt with sooner or later of course. If we leave out the constitutional monarchy factor (probably sensible) then Australia and New Zealand at least gave universal franchise (not counting Aboriginals) before most other democracies. In Australia's case that goes back to well before the American Civil war years when the present day states of Australia considered themselves to be separate colonies of Britain, but had still extended the franchise as already outlined. After the states federated in 1901 then that franchise became national... but it had certainly existed long before the existence of the Commonwealth of Australia. Over the last 30 or so years the word Commonwealth has been unofficially dropped and Australia is just called Australia these days. There have been no interruptions to the continuity or stability of democracy in either Australia or New Zealand since their inception, making them amongst the world's oldest functioning stable democracies, or at least they are considered to be such. Malcolm Chalmers, Sydney, Australia After reading all the competition entries, I declare the winner of the oldest democracy to be...Iceland. (Isle of Man had to be eliminated on a technicality; it's not strictly a "country" as specified in the original question.) I recognise my decision will lead to considerable re-printing expenses in the United States at a time of great financial duress. I'm really sorry. Robert Ashe, Wellington, New Zealand The Faroese have Løgtingið, which is the oldest parliament in the world! Respecting the fact, that the Faroes were explored earlier than Iceland and had the same Norse rules, there is not much doubt, that the Faroese ting is older than that of Iceland, which was founded in 930. Leon Absalonsen, Copenhagen, Denmark Scott, the Isle of Man is an independent nation, often wrongly considered part of the UK. It is not and never has been. It has a very good claim to being the world's oldest democracy, with the oldest continuously existing parliament in the world dating from AD 979. Paul Tiere, London, UK A good contender for the earliest parliament, though not necessarily by universal suffrage, was the Tinganes established by the Vikings in the Faero Islands of the north Atlantic which can be dated back to 825AD. Charles Boyle, Perth, Australia Can a country be really considered to be democratic until every citizen, male or female, black or white were given the vote? I know women here in New Zealand were given the vote in 1893 but not sure if that was the first. Nigel Christopher Johnson, Wellington, New Zealand Canada has been a continuous democracy since 1867. Lynne McCarthy, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Having a parliament does not alone make you a democratic institution. Iceland had a king. I think most reasonable people would say if you have a king you can't truly be a democratic institution as most Americans think. They didn't even get true independence from Denmark until 1918. It is LAUGHABLE to think a country is a democracy if it is in FACT controlled by some other country?! That said, if not all citizens are allowed to vote I think the same can be said. Blacks didn't get the right to vote until about 100 years ago, women didn't get the right to vote until 80 years ago. That is a much stronger argument for why America is not the oldest "democracy." Besides, technically the US is classified as a Republic, as is most other "democracies." Nobody on this topic will ever agree because everyone on this topic has a different definition of what a democracy is. I would define a democracy as ALL citizens get to vote for EVERY leadership position including the top position. Vectors Rule, Chapel Hill United States Democracy is a Greek Word. Socrates drank hemlock 400 years before Jesus rather than live elsewhere, and it was a Jury of his Peers that condemned him to death. What, in fact, caused his death was his rejection of his own democratic leadership. John Galt, UK I suspect the oldest democracy may be San Marino. Whilst its constitution was recorded in 1600, the form of government had been established since 301. This predates all the claims, except possibly Mullana (which did not have a date associated). Michael McGann, Cleveland, USA The December 2009 issue of National Geographic Magazine has this quote at p.141: "...the Holy Community - the world's longest continually functioning parliament -..." This in reference to the self-governing peninsula of Mount Athos, off northern Greece. It has been occupied by a community of Christian monks, who eventually built their first large monastery in 963. John Kay, Tacoma, WA, USA You forget one thing all the time: it isn't enough that you have the right to vote - you must also have the right to be a CANDIDATE! These are two different things. Women were allowed to vote in New Zealand in 1893 but they were not eligible until 1919. Also, Icelandic parliament didn't have a real universal suffrage until the 20th century. Finland was the first state to give women the right to be a candidate in 1906 and Finland had the first female members of parliament in the world in 1907. Therefore, Finland was the first country with true universal democracy. Also all the minorities and the landless people had the same rights. At that time Finland was an autonomous part of the Russian Empire and got full independence later, in 1917. In essence, Finland was a monarchy with its own parliament but the Russian tsar as the head of the state. I think you can't call a country democratic if it excludes women, minorities or poor people from elections/eligibility. That is what has happened everywhere in the world until the 20th century. Finland was the first to have universal rights. Jonas, Helsinki, Finland Switzerland is the only true Democracy. Only the citizens or this country can make laws, or resend them. They have had this current Switzerland is the only true Democracy. Only the citizens or this country can make laws, or resend them. They have had this current government since 1322, when they wrote the Arch Bishop of Austria and declared their independence. The have had the same government rules since then, all changes have to be approved by the citizens of this country. There was never a round fired in their succession from the Austrian Empire. The politicians only rule over parliamentary procedure, as in Roberts rule of order. James Lee, Gilbertsville, USA All the above who are stating that everyone in the country needs to vote to be considered a democracy is utterly wrong, you are thinking of a REPUBLIC in which the rights of the individual are supreme. Unfortunately in democracy it is the GROUP elected which has the power, nothing to do with any individuals or who voted for said individuals. Isle of Man is in fact part of the British Empire, as a dependent country(if you don't realize Queen Elizabeth II is the RULER of the Isle of Mann you are an idiot). Iceland is out because it was under Danish rule until mid 1900's. USA would rule supreme as over 230 years old. Steven Stewart, Arizona, USA My immediate answer would have to be Greece, since Socrates actually coined the word, but they certainly don't have the longest running one unless we want to ignore that whole junta thing that went on back in the early 70s. Malana would have to be eliminated since it is a tribal village owing allegiance to India. Also, in Malana, anyone who is not from Malana is untouchable. This would probably indicate that they cannot vote. So, what's the definition of a Democracy? I would put it like this: "Any type of government in which the powers exercised as representative of the people are exercised by officials elected by the citizens." This would eliminate the judiciary branch in most systems since their powers are interpretive, not representative. Using the US as an example, then, officials in the executive and legislative branches are elected by the citizens. Following that train of thought would seem to indicate that representative forms of government which exclude citizens from voting (eg. women's suffrage) would not qualify for the longest-running Democracy. Therefore, I'd have to nominate New Zealand which gave universal suffrage in 1893, pre-dating Finland by about 15 years and the US by about 30. Scott, Austin, Texas, USA People seem to think that just because you have royalty you cannot have parliament. After the British Civil War the royalty never had the same power it used to and even though there is/was a monarch in place it does not mean that you cannot also have a democratic parliament. Once again, Americans getting the facts wrong. Most of what they have in place is based on parts of what other countries had in place. This is not to say that the end product was not different (and very good). Gary Brown, Llanelli, Wales, UK Athens was never a democracy, the greater part of the population, women and slaves, had no vote. Greece has even less claim. It was also part of the Ottoman Empire and post World War II it was a military dictatorship. Robin Wynn, Rodney Bay, St Lucia The Faroe Islands have the oldest parliament in the world, founded in the year 850 or 900 by the Vikings (The Løgting). Grímr Kamban, Funningur, Faroe Islands I just want to clear something up about monarchy. There is a difference between absolute monarchy and constitutional monarchy. An absolute monarchy rules absolutely and undemocratically without recourse to parliament. A constitutional monarchy on the other hand is merely a ceremonial, figurehead. Executive power r rests in the hands of the prime minister and the cabinet. All monarchies in Western Europe and Japan are of this sort and completely demotic. Now, not all rebuilds are democracies. There are many republics around the world which are not democratic and where the individual does not rule supreme. Republics as and of themselves are not necessarily democratic. Just as monarchies are not all undemocratic. Most are democratic n the modern World. The final thing I want to say is that most democracies prior to the late 19th Century were partial or limited democracies only, such as Great Britain and the USA. Both of these countries were slave owning societies to one extent or the other. Slavery was abolished in d the UK in 1807 and in the British colonies as a whole in 1834. America did not finally abolish slavery until 1865 and black men and Native American men the vote until 1870. Both the USA and the UK compete for the claim of first democracy status but I mean, its a funny kind of democracy that is also slave owning society. Antony Mann, London Well there are many arguments which have merit here. In the UK you are not a citizen but a subject, property of the Crown (as is most land), to be disposed of as the Crown sees fit. You may have the right to vote but this is relatively new in that at one time you had to pay for that right and the price was set high so that most commoners could not afford to participate. The Iroquois Confederacy was like most North American societies prior to the annexation or conquest by Europeans, matriarchies. As for the Norse lands, they were slave owning societies so were not fully enfranchised . So we have the odd one out... the Isle of Man... always independent of the British Crown even though in the British seas. Martin Topple, San Lorenzo, USA Clearly the only true democracy is Saudi Arabia. Fariq Al Sahim, Riyadh, Saudia Arabia In the UK we no longer think of ourselves as subjects of the Crown but citizens. In the British passport it clearly states that we are British Citizens not subjects of the Crown. This has been the case for many decades and anyway was only ever nominal, unless you go right back to Early Modern times. We are citizens with rights enshrined in law that goes back to the Middle Ages, e.g. the Act of Habeas Corpus. To say that UK citizens are the property of the Crown is ludicrous and naive. It is not true that people have had to pay to vote, at least not in the Modern Era. However, there were property qualifications that excluded a large section of society from the franchise. These property qualifications were abolished in the Mid-Nineteenth century. Property qualifications were also abolished in the US at a similar time but Native Americans did not get the vote until as late as 1924. In response to Martins peculiar view of British land ownership and property rights, in fact most land is held in freehold by individuals or corporations, as in the U.S. Crown Land is in actuality held and administered by the Government. It is Crown Land in name only. The Monarch herself owns some private land. Antony Mann, London, UK I have heard some drivel in my time but this is ridiculous. The Isle of Man has the OLDEST CONTINUOUS PARLIaMENT in the world, Tynwald. This is a parliament that has been renewed every time by the Lord of Man; the Lord of Man may change but the parliament stays the same. For any Americans that's like when you get a new president. As for Iceland it was not functioning for several years making it restart from after the period of outage in the 1800s. The king or Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland happens to be the Current Lord of Man. The Island is an independent nation with its own currency and language. Australia still has a monarch; does that make it part of the British Empire, answer to some retarded ill thought comments. What's really funny is that the question posed was 'Which country can claim to be the World's oldest democracy?' No mention of continuous or interruption, just oldest. We can take from that many ideas, some examples being the time it was started (Greeks) the total of years operating as a democracy (don't know) or the type, total democracy (Switzerland) or limited democracy (Russia) so I would say the question is still un-answered. One point for the Isle of Man people, parliament does not mean democracy. For everyone else democracy is a system whereby everyone has equal access to power and to make decisions about the future of oneself and the place they live in. My money is on Switzerland, where this has been possible for everyone for quite some time. Sven Debnam, Morecambe, Lancashire, UK Sorry, Joe.... although the US was established as a Republic, where the States Independence had precedence over any Federal laws, the Republic has been turned into a Top-Down democracy where even our inalienable rights no longer take precedence. The problem became even more compounded and utterly ironic when "Republicans" like Ronald Reagan started forcing laws like 21-year-old drinking age on the States by withholding Federal Interstate Highway funds about 25 years ago. Now they do it any time they don't like a State Law and can't get it labeled "Unconstitutional" by the Supreme Court. The US is no longer a Republic... not by a long shot! J.R., Milwaukee, US I would not go as far as to say that Sven is talking complete drivel but the idea of the Isle of Man as the Worlds oldest democracy is questionable. For two reasons: 1. Until the 19th Century, the Isle of Man was a man only democracy (It seems that the Isle of Man was just about as slow as anyone else as giving the whole population the vote. ) and 2. The island is not a sovereign country, it is a dependent territory. It is part of the United Kingdom. For me a true democracy has to enfranchise women. My money is on New Zealand, which gave women the vote in 1893. Sharon Cox, Sandhurst, UK I am not claiming that Prophet Mohammed was the first to create a consultancy government. However Koran did insist that Islamic ruling should depend on consultancy between all heads of tribes. Unfortunately this has since changed and those claim to be an Islamic countries do not apply Islamic values. Nooruddin Ebrahim, Hidd, Bahrain I don't think the United States is or ever has been a democracy. Unless you're filthy rich you can not be a candidate! Christo, Johannesburg, South Africa The United States can't even be called a democracy because if it were Al Gore would have been president for winning the popular vote. K. Weston, Detroit Michigan United States I just heard President Obama address the Indian Parliament. He said "Greetings to the World's largest democracy from the World's oldest democracy." I guess that settles it. Unless, of course, you think Mr. Obama is full of excrement. Colleen, Everywhere USA How Barack Obama can claim that America is the world's oldest democracy is beyond me. Only ten years ago George Bush was voted into power on a minority vote. Al Gore achieved more votes than George Bush in the 2000 election. Indeed in the state of Florida spoiled votes were not recounted and in the end George Bush was voted into power by the courts rather than the people, and that only happened because the republican judges, who were in the majority in that court, voted in a party partial way. That my friends in America is not democracy so stop telling the world that you are the world's oldest democracy. Les Rutledge Leslie Rutledge, Pembroke Wales In listening to President Obama speak in the Indian Parliament, it was interesting when he said India was the largest Democracy in the world, there was thunderous applause in the chamber; however, in the next breath, when he stated the US is the oldest Democracy in the world, there was deafening silence. Sometimes, silence speaks louder than words. All I would say is this type of comment makes as much sense to me as saying President Obama is the 'leader of the free world.' I would venture to guess, there would be less than 100% agreement on that particular statement, as well. A proud Canadian Frank Lavandier, Summerside Canada There never has been - and probably never will be - any true 'democracy' in the strictest sense of the word. That said, the word 'democracy' is usually only ever used to represent a constitutional republic (as opposed to a monarchy or some other form of governance). So, the question is actually what is the oldest nation to have always had a constitution and democratically-elected officials. Stephen, Chapel Hill USA As much as I like Barack Obama, I was appalled to hear him say in a speech to the Indian parliament that the USA was the world's oldest democracy. His speechwriters have gotten this one wrong. It is typical of the attitude that the "USA is the best country in the World' statement I hear over and over again....or "America is a shining beacon to the rest of the world." Yes, the US has the world's largest economy, and perhaps the World's most powerful military (let's hope we never have to find out), but Americans have heard this mantra since birth and most of them believe it. That's why there's so much anger in the US electorate. They're hurting economically, the standard of living is going down, and someone has to be blamed. Wake up--You are at fault. Other countries have good ideas. Just because it's not the way you do things doesn't mean universal health care is communist, or a better safety net is socialist. You don't have the oldest democracy. Blacks were slaves for much of your history and their vote was actively repressed until the 60's and more subtly repressed in Florida for the election of the disaster of Bush's. Unless you admit to yourselves that you are not the ultimate in all things you will never be able to compete in this changing world, secure in the knowledge that you are the best. Frank Edgley, Windsor Canada Vaishali or Vesali (Pali) or Vaishali republic,the capital city of the Licchavi in eastern Indian province of bihar has the rare distinction of being the seat of first democratic government of the world as early as in the 6th century bc B.C its adjecent city patliputra,present day patna was the world's largest city, with a population of 150,000-300,000. visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishali_%28ancient_city%29 gaurav, bodh gaya india I have to agree with the guy from South Africa. When they break up the two party dictatorship that rules the United States and actually let people have more options, then we can finally become a democracy. Right now our whole election system is a sham. The best part - votes by the people in the U.S.A really do not matter. What matters is how the electoral college votes. If they so choose they could elect the loser to be president even though they promised to vote for a certain candidate. In other words, in November the people may have elected one candidate, the electoral college may choose to elect another. And the electoral college's choice will be the next president. Wish they would have done that back in 2000 and overrode Bush's win, We could have avoided a costly war in Iraq. Josh, Alma, Michigan, USA I am sure the first and longest running democracy has to be the city of Athens. Democracy and Republic are very specific. A democracy is a government in which the power is vested in ALL the people. Athens randomly voted people to run the city every 4 years. That means ANYONE could have been voted to run the government. What I find hilarious though more then anything is after 234 years it's amazing how pissy the Brits still are about losing the American Revolution. We did beat you in several major and important battles before the French would even touch the US. One of the angry UKer's oh wait, I mean English responders since you certainly aren't a kingdom anymore should re-read your history books if you think Washington's only victory was Yorktown. It was the combination of victories at Trenton, Saratoga, and Nathanael Greene's victories in the south that beat the British. The French only started supplying the US after we walloped you at Saratoga. The British officers were too busy trying to screw their subordinates wives then fight. The French did help immensely but to act like the US wasn't giving you guys a good fight makes you sound like a bunch of angry idiotic school children. It's pathetic. The US isn't perfect by any means but beating the biggest superpower of that time and maintaining the same government for 234 years is not a bad stretch. Also the help America gave you and Europe in WWII is so quickly forgotten, I just don't get it where all the bitterness comes from but that's a whole other story. Bitter, bitter, bitter. Dave Piccolo, Danbury,CT USA The claim that many people are making about the United States not being a democracy at all is absurd, come live here and you'll see that it's much nicer from the inside than it is from the outside. I live in a city of about 600,000 people and I personally know two members of city council (one of them is my History teacher's brother), have met both of our senators and live blocks away from the ex-governor. None of these people are rich tycoons, none of these people are in any way evil; they all work towards serving freedom and serving the ideals that the United States have put forward as a democracy. I think that when a 14 year old kid can have all these connections to his government and his politics, democracy is working pretty damn well! -Griffin Griffin, Portland The United States of America Oh Dave, you say it's "hilarious" how "pissy" Brits get when it is suggested that the US did at all well in their revolution, and then you go on to puff and preen about what a big achievement it really was, and can't everyone acknowledge how well you all did against such a big mean super power. I can only imagine how much in awe of Afghanistan you must be, as they've pretty much fought off TWO superpowers (USSR & USA), and managed both within the past half century rather than more than two and a half centuries ago... And, indeed, that they managed it without having many of the decisive battles lead by a foreign general, with half foreign troops, and their enemy cut off from resupply by a foreign naval blockade, and distracted by other wars elsewhere in the world. Now that is a REAL achievement. But the USA did pretty well too, so good on you. I'll put a lovely ribbon in the mail for you. Oh, and thanks for saving everyone in world war two. I'm not sure why Americans always want thanking for this, but it was very nice of you to only sit and watch fascism spread over the world for three years before jumping in. I have every confidence that without your involvement Hitler would have won, and then would have stopped, and in no way tried to attack the USA form a position of strength. He was a very good little boy about that sort of thing. So cheers for being a pal there. Alex, Canada It was Lichhavi Dystany which was existing 400 to 750 years before Budha and Wikipedia says:Licchavi (also Lichchhavi, Lichavi) was an ancient kingdom in Nepal, which existed in the Kathmandu Valley from approximately 400 to 750. Centuries earlier, at the start of the Buddhist era a powerful republic known as Licchavi existed in what is today Bihar. There is no conclusive evidence of any ethnic or historic links between the two states. The language of Licchavi inscriptions is Sanskrit, and the particular script used is closely related to official Gupta scripts, suggesting that India was a significant cultural influence. This was likely through Mithila - the northern part of modern Bihar, India. The term 'Licchavi' term probably derives from Rikshavi possibly Sanskritized to Rkshvavati. Riksha or Rksha in Sanskrit means Star. A table of the evolution of certain Gupta characters used in Licchavi inscriptions prepared by Gautamavajra Vajrācārya can be found online. In that period there is no official record about US,UK or any other Western civilization. Alok K. Jha, Patna, India Well what about the 5000 year old government of Ancient Egypt??? Maxemilion, UK I think Dave Piccolo from CT is paranoid. We Brits do not exactly spend much of our time thinking about the American Revolution and there cant be many of us who are still sore about losing a war that took place over two hundred years ago. For most British people the American Revolution wouldnt even be on their radar but, obviously Dave in his vivid imagination envisions a British nation still seething at the loss of its American Colonies. Doubtless, to Americans the revolution is still important but to us British its a side issue to the main story of European history. Im a history graduate and on our course we did not even touch on American history. Tony Mann, London, UK All utterly wrong. One of the first and obviously the longest lasting democratic government of any breed existed in San Marino circa 301 AD. Now the fun part. 1. Britain endured an oligarchic parliamentary government for most of it's "democratic" history. No modern democracy existed until 1918 in the Representation of the People Act in 1918, women only found themselves represented in reality in 1928 and the current equal suffrage at 18 system did not appear until 1969. Britain's Parliamentary phase preceded America's existence as an entity, but it would also be classified as an indirect democracy. While parliamentary sovereignty was a major facet of the political sphere one also cannot deny early royal influence. 2. Iceland, respectably well-aged in it's practices endured a Tribal Council; holding some benefits but hardly enjoying anything resembling a real democracy. As an elite council however it had an early life, but was stifled for years by Monarchical rule. There was no clear line from 930 to today of anything consistent. 3. America, founded in 1776 held a base and rudimentary form of democracy. Only in the Jackson era and early 20th century reform era was the franchise actually expanded, but the nation still existed as a democratic entity with all organs of government stemming from a free electorate, well maintained by an active press and civil society. 4. The Isle of Man enjoyed an old Parliamentary system but is a dependency of the British Crown. The Queen has little influence on theirs or English affair, but since the Manx do not participate in English governance they lack total dominion over their own affairs. 5. The People of the Longhouse; there's an interesting situation. Councils of Female Elders did at a point select male leaders in one portion of their history. However applying logic used against western democracies that refused suffrage to women, men had little say in governance at this point. After a brief spell in this period the reverse arose with militaristic warriors and warlords seizing the reins of governance with no representation or accountability whatsoever. The massive portion of the population that was assimilated and forced to live among them also lacked representation. 6. Switzerland holds a respected but unbreakable coalition government and representation for women occurred startlingly late in its history. 7. India, no. Simply no. Arguments that it is the world's oldest, or longest reigning democracy are founded upon the most biased, ignorant and nationalistic stance. India hardly even existed throughout history and when it did it endured authoritarian empires. 8. In 1775 we saw the birth of the Corsican republic, pre-dating the United States. Democratic institutions were later crushed by French forces, but there are arguments to be made. Nowadays it participates in French governance and therefore is represented in all facets of it's affairs, if not as an independent entity. Rourke Carlyle, Brentwood, US Griffin, as an English ex-patriot living for the past twelve years in the USA, I can assure you that the reality is far uglier than the glossy image. A democracy perhaps, but a very, very poor one. The entire electoral and administrative system is controlled either indirectly or, increasingly, directly by large corporations. Colin Lewis, Maine, USA To get an agreeable answer you should find a common definition for democracy first. But keep on posting, it's quite entertaining. Peter, Hamburg, Germany Catalonia, now an autonomous region of Spain, has one of the oldest democratic parliaments in the world and the oldest that has lasted until today. Parliament was born 1283 and its first president was named the 1359. Despite its suppression during times of absolute monarchy and dictatorship, the Parliament continues today, having passed and 129 presidents. Xavi , Barcelona, Catalonia (Spain) The U.S. is one of, if not the oldest government in continuous existence. Other contenders that I have heard make this claim or have had this claim made on their behalf include Australia, Canada, Catalonia, Iceland, Isle of Man, New Zealand, San Marino, and UK. The Commonwealth of Australia was formed on January 1, 1901 when the six Australian colonies formed a single federation. Canada celebrates its independence in 1867 when four of the provinces came together to form a union. Catalonia is an autonomous region within Spain, but still subject to Spanish authority. Iceland was actually under the rule of Denmark until 1918, and under German rule during WWII. Isle of Man is a self-governing British Crown Dependency. It is not a country. New Zealand became self-governing in 1852, after having been a colony of the British Empire. While it had the same constitution in continuous existence from 1600, San Marino was under the control of the Fascist Party from 1923 to 1943. The current democratic system of government in the UK began with the Reform Bill of 1832. On July 4, 1776, the American colonies issued the Declaration of Independence, which proclaimed their right to self-determination and their establishment of a cooperative union. They defeated the British Empire in the American Revolution, the first successful colonial war of independence, and the current United States Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787; its ratification the following year made the states part of a single republic. It is also the oldest democracy in continuous existence. While some have questioned whether or not it is a true democracy, and whether it could be considered a democracy when it allowed slavery and women did not have the vote, no democracy is a true democracy. Most of the countries we call democracies are actually republican democracies, in which the electorate elect representatives to represent them in carrying out the responsibilities of government. They retain control, however, through a combination of periodic elections, term limits, and the right to recall. And no nation has universal suffrage. Most nations allowed slavery into the 1800s, many still tolerate it today, and many even allow certain forms of it legally. Most nations did not allow women to vote until the Twentieth Century. Almost none allow children, felons, the mentally incompetent, and non-citizens to vote. George Denise, Saratoga USA The US is the oldest. Well I do not perceive UK as a democratic country because queen still has got the legal right to sign the prime minister and lead the army !! seriously 9 out of 10 human being out there in the world have no idea where the hell is Isle of the man!!?? Shahab , Iran Iran San Marino is the oldest republic in the world and their constitution was written in 3rd century. It has also never been conquered so I think it is the oldest democracy. Jakob, Ljubljana Slovenia The first problem in this debate is that no uniform definition of a Democracy exists. However, numerous historical examples exist which reflect aspects of modern democratic governments, including ancient Athens, Iceland, the Iroquois, and so forth. In many cases these models emerge as these societies evolved from tribal governments, and those that survived often did so because they were sufficiently isolated from the political currents that led to increasingly large and powerful nation-states headed by absolute monarchs backed by aristocracies and clergy. No rule is absolute, but this does tend to hold up in most cases. Britain began evolving toward what we might call democracy during the early modern era, and many of those developments were paralleled in their young colonies in the Americas. Although America did manage to break from Britain both nations continued to develop stronger democratic traditions in spite of their differing labels (Constitution or Monarchy aside). Both nations gradually enfranchised more and more voters right through to the twentieth century. It can be said that modern Democracy developed in the English speaking world, but not in just one nation. America and Britain certainly share kudos for the fact though. Aaron, Vermont United States The US is not a Democracy! It is an Aristocratic Oligarchy. Bryce, Narberth, PA USA The text book definition of democracy varies from text to text. de·moc·ra·cy- government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system. (dictionary.com) the concept of democracy is implausible, as there always has been and always will be those who take advantage, lie, and cheat. a classic example would be the Watergate scandal during the Reagan era http://www.watergate.info/ another great example is the assassination of Julius Caesar http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/caesar.html and my final example is in reference to Adolf Hitler http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp and his rise to power over the German people. Gage Witt, Fremont, Ohio united states The US is *not* a democracy at all, it is a "republic" and anyone who buys into the Orwellian hogwash, whether they be a US citizen or not, quickly appear to be ignorant of the US's true governmental structure. I am shocked to see how many take jabs at the US for no apparent reason. The more I see these nasty, misguided, and wholly ignorant anti-US comments, the more I think "you people" are just projecting a vague dislike onto us. Very juvenile. Ross, Long Island, NY US The issue of democracy is not as clear as everyone states. We in America get to chose our leaders based on a small selection of rich politicians who have basically bought their right to run for president. The whole system is corrupt and has been since God told us that we would be under oppression with a King( or universal governing body). There is only one King and he is the King of all Nations. We would be best served to take the advise of the Bible, take care of yourself, your neighbors, love your God, and mind your own business. Everything else causes strife in the world. End of story. David Hicks, Snyder, Tx United States Some might say Australia is still on a path to independence as we are still technically ruled by the British monarchy, even though that monarchy does not have any right to interfere with Australian laws. Gary Collett, Brisbane Australia @Bob.....America was founded as a Constitutional REPUBLIC, not a "democracy"! You have done NO research at all it seems !!! Buck, America Canada is the oldest continuous democratic federation in the world. Rufus Jones, Winnipeg Canada Whether its Iceland or Finland the most important mark of the longest democracy is 'That every citizen can vote and apply as a candidate for any position, prime minister or president." This precludes all constitutional monarchies as candidates for the world's longest democracies. Noel Obrien, Sydney Australia The Tynwald on the Isle of Man has been in existence since 979 and is still going strong. George, London UK Patriarchate of Aquileia in Friuli (italy) had a parliament since 1231, and lasted since the arrival of Napoleon (1805). The participants of the session were nobles, clergy and even the representations of the municipalities. In addition there was an organism called "Contadinanza" (literally Farmance) that represented the farmers of Friuli Fabio, Udine Friulian To answer the question, you first have to define what you mean by "democracy". I'd suggest it means that those who exercise real legislative or executive power are elected by, and accountable to, the general citizenry. Having a figurehead head of state (whether hereditary or appointed) does not matter if they exercise no real power. If you accept that democracy means political offices with real power are elected and accountable, then the following candidates advocated by other contributors are definitely out of the running for the oldest democracy: - UK: One legislative chamber is, to this day, not elected. The House of Lords consists mainly of people appointed for life, with some hereditary peers. Although the Lords is not as powerful as the Commons, it does still exercise legislative power. So scratch the UK. - Canada: One legislative chamber is appointed, not elected. The Canadian Senate exercises actual legislative power but is not elected by, or directly accountable to, the citizenry. - US: Until the 17th amendment took effect in 1913, the US Constitution provided that US senators were appointed by State legislatures, not directly elected by voters. As Senators serve six year terms, it wasn't until January 1919 that citizen-elected Senators completely replaced State-appointed Senators. And as late as 1860, at least one State (South Carolina) did not give its citizens any direct say in the election of the US President; the State's legislature appointed members of the State's electoral college to cast the State's votes for the presidency. In contrast, many comparable large democracies have directly elected all political office-holders since the establishment of their current constitutions. Examples include India, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, France and Germany. Of these, I think only Australia (1901) and New Zealand (1906) (and possibly France) have had completely democratic (i.e. fully elected) governance longer than the US. Some Australian States had direct election by citizens of all political office-holders even earlier; for example Victoria from 1856. But none of these come close to the Isle of Man or Iceland, which seem to get the prize. Mark Miller, Melbourne Australia The United States is neither a true democracy or a true republic. The electorial college, for which I see no reason, has the power to elect the president over the majority vote of the people. Which they have done. Big corporations and government entities such as DOE and TVA have no accountability. The EPA supposedly oversees that the environment is not overly harmed but they are also a government entity. Big money wins over environmentalism. The US does not provide health care or secondary education to its citizens. While claiming equality, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Presidential candidates are always very wealthy. The US also likes to ignore the fact that it was founded on the genocide and annihilation of one race ( The Native Americans )and the enslavement of another (Africans). Tammy Lyle, South of the River USA Earth to Tony Mann, you stated "I'm a history graduate and on our course we did not touch on American History." What a simple course. You do not qualify as a WORLD history graduate, I'm so sorry old chap. William Lorigan Brady, Niagara falls, NY USA I almost gave in to the temptation to be a smartass 'who cares...all that matters is who is standing in the end' kind of thing. But it is really intriguing when you think that after all this time we still do not have a clear determination of what constitutes a democracy. Robert C Potter, Sebastian United States The early African Kingdoms date 500 B.C before the writings of the classical Greek scholar Herodotus. The Akamba tribe of East Africa were organised into many clans for the purpose of governing. Their governmental system was very strong because elders were elected to the office of leadership by the virtue of their character,integrity and honesty. Their government is best described as government by agreement. They had no written language and had no books to keep their records, except by the word of mouth. Akamba established rules and regulations to run their daily tribal affairs. In time of war against other tribes they elected a war chief-----a man of physical discipline, outstanding oratorical ability and one who was willing to be accepted as a war chief. The elders were also the judges of the tribe, and their government was ruled by a consensus. No elder or any other speaker was allowed to speak or address the council with a forceful tone of anger that would only weaken his point. Solomon Kimuyu, Muumandu Kenya I saw a lot of letters from American preening and being..well loud mouthed americans about their 'whooping' Britain. All I can say is that the British treated the people in their colonies and in their own country with equality. The British were certainly far more cultured, advanced in treating people from other cultures and race than the Americans. Blacks in USA led a nightmarish life well upto the middle of the 20th Century. As for the Red Indians whose land was looted with impunity, the less said the better for American 'democracy'. Isa Mani, Chennai, India While the Isle of Man certainly has the oldest continuous parliament in the world, nobody can really claim that it was democratic for most of its history. Until the 19th century its members were appointed. The longevity of Tynwald is a red herring in this debate. The island's real claim to being the oldest democracy comes from giving women the vote earlier than any other country. Manxmen AND WOMEN had the vote from 1881, well ahead of the United Kingdom, United States and two years before New Zealand. On the basis that a country that denies the right to vote to citizens/subjects on grounds of gender or race is not really a democracy, the Isle of Man (and Woman) wins. Roger Spencer, Onchan Isle of Man Forgot to say: prisoners also get the vote in the Isle of Man, unlike those in the United Kingdom. How is that for democracy and human rights, Guardian fans? Roger Spencer, Onchan Isle of Man So sorry to have offended William from Niagara Falls, NY, but my postings were in response to the arrogant posting of Bob from Michigan. Its been some months since I posted those messages and I am not as angry as I was. Some of what I wrote was not my considered opinion. Again, apologies old chap (Not that old chap is a phrase I would normally use.) Tony Mann, London, UK All this wind overlooks the many limitations on the franchise in the U.S. In some places, you'll need a prescribed photo of yourself in order to vote this year. In others, a picture of Benjamin Franklin on a $100 bill is just as good. In most places, a convicted felon is not allowed to vote, and nearly everywhere we allow or even encourage absolute idiots to exercise the franchise. Don Bliss, Seattle, Wasington U.S. It appears that there is no correct way to define a democracy. According to what I have read above. No matter. The U.S. is a Republic, pure and simple. I hope it stays that way. The people in power would like to think it was a democracy. Why? I don't know. We do not have a majority vote in elections, and read section 14, article 14 of the constitution. AND-- I haven't heard anyone pledge allegiance to the flag , and to the democracy it stands for. And I never sang the Battle Hymn of the democracy. I fought for my Republic in World War 2 and I hope it stays that way. Have a good day. Ronald Green, Elmira, New York, U.S.A. Jeremy, you are 100% wrong on pretty much everything. The Crusades were quite successful in stopping the advance of the Muslim hordes and even managed to hold the fort in the middle of enemy territory for quite a long time, without supplies or reinforcements. The Muslims were always and still are criminal barbarians who never achieved anything themselves. All the alleged "thinkers" of Islam are either Jewish, European, Persian, Indian or Berber and only just after Islam was imposed on them, i.e. while they still were connected with their former, non-Muslim culture. As soon as they had been living under Islam for 2 or 3 generations, all intelligence, innovation and decency was driven out. When people claim that Muslims were allegedly "in advance", Europe build gigantic cathedrals that took centuries to build, yet that were completely planned out from the beginning. e.g. the Cathedral of Lausanne was built starting in the 11th century. Musulims never built anything even remotely comparable. All the wealth of Islam was due to THEFT. They created nothing. Pesants and workers were looked down on by Mohammed, who was a trader himself and who knew nothing else. He never even stopped to think about the fact that any good he traded had to be created first. The decline of the Musllim power had to come as an absolute necessity as soon as they could not win any further battles. Stefan Metzeler, Lausanne, Switzerland With the exception of women's suffrage, the USA is, without question, the oldest continual sovereign democratic republic on earth, dating to the ratification and enactment of the current US constitution in 1789. Marc Haakenson, Raleigh USA With the exception of womens suffrage, the suffrage of indigenous people and the suffrage of black people, the USA would have been the oldest continual sovereign democratic republic on earth, if it were not for the fact that until 1865, the USA was also a slave-owning society. Slave-owning is just about as profoundly UN-democratic as it gets. Modern, democratic America began in 1865; at least thats my opinion Tony Mann, London, United Kingdom Oldest democracy ? An interesting question but not really of much moment. A better question is : what country currently has the best values and ideals and endeavors to live by the simple creed espoused by Google: Do no harm. By this I mean that the government of the candidate country should care for ALL its citizens (using some meaningful definition of equality........there are many definitions ) and, just as importantly, should do no harm to the citizens of other countries. Obviously some countries geopolitical stature is very prominent and they stride the world stage in a "loud" manner. Metaphorically , if we liken the world to the proverbial "school yard" and the world's countries to kids on the school yard, then who are the well behaved kids? Who are the school bullies? Who are the prefects ? Who is the Dux of the school? In an imperfect world these are important questions for all of us. Which country is an exemplar of good behavior ? Peter Zimmermann, Sydney, Australia Switzerland Charles Gill ,D.Sc., Gambier,Ohio USA Er, the "American Revolution" wasn't called that at the start. Thomas Jefferson himself referred to it as a Civil War, and considered himself a British Citizen, part of the group of British Americans going to war with their British cousins over a lack of political representation (fair enough, can't blame them for wanting to be part of a Democracy) If it had been the native American Indians trying to kick out the Colonial Oppressors we could talk about giving "them" a whooping, but actually it was British Citizens fighting British Citizens... with help on both sides from mercenaries. Anyway, despite the Second Civil War in the 1860s, the ex-slaves didn't get to vote or be treated as full citizens until the 1960s, so the US can't be the oldest Democracy. The UK is not even now a full Democracy because of the unelected House of Lords (though the system works well despite that). Can any Country accepting laws written by unelected EU Officials currently be considered truly Democratic? I have lived in the US, UK and EU, and enjoyed and respected all. However, the country in which I now live, Switzerland, feels more Democratic than any of them, and the people trust themselves to make decisions by voting, rather than voting every few years to elect someone to take decisions for them. Yes women only got the vote in the last of 26 Cantons in the 1970s, but before that it was considered that men voted on behalf of their family's views, including their children's, not their personal views. Not ideal of course, but who is to say that the current cutoff at 18 in most countries is correct? They also make sure their children are educated well enough to make an informed voting decision, and to take their responsibility seriously, unlike in some other countries. The Swiss also allow non-citizens to vote in local elections after five years residence (unlike the Ancient Greeks and Romans...). Democracy isn't the perfect system, but it's the least bad one we have, rather like Capitalism... David J.P.Pierce Jones, Geneva, Switzerland In the school yard of the world, the USA has been the teacher, keeping the peace on the playground from the bullies. Are we the best behaved and the best liked? No. Teachers have to maintain order and exact penalties of one kind or another. Who likes that? Who cares when it's power and respect that's required, not niceness. Jim Russell, San Diego, USA The Greeks had slaves, ergo no democracy. The Haudenosaunee (iroquois) women participated in the only true democracy on the planet hundreds of years before any other people considered women more than chattel. Ladies of the court were made available to the king in England. The Matriarchal system of the Haudenosaunee so scared the church and state that they rounded up aboriginal children and slaughtered them in residential schools up until the 70's in Canada. Gene Jonathan, Ohsweken, Canada Generally speaking i would say the USA for the simple reason that in 1920 all citizens (including women) could vote where as the same only applies to Britain after 1928, so my personal view is that the USA is the worlds first modern democracy Les, Newcastle upon Tyne England I have read many of the entries above and can not believe that anybody can even consider a country democratic without universal suffrage - isn't that the point of democracy? So the US is OUT! The US did not give women the vote until 1920 and Native Americans were not given citizenship until 1924. Australia is really out as they did not give the vote to Aborigines till 1967 - so Australia is a pretty new democracy. Somebody even entered Switzerland (!) but they have only been democratic for 41 years having only granted women suffrage in 1971. I believe that New Zealand is the longest standing democracy, having granted women the vote in 1893. However, I take the point that some people have made that a parliamentary constitutional monarchy is not a true democracy. However, if one goes by the Polity IV scale, the wildly used to measure democracy, or the Democracy Index, then constitutional monarchies such as New Zealand, Australia, Canada and Scandinavian countries come out on top as being the most democratic in the world. I would also like to posit that democracies that have a first past the post system are not as democratic as those with systems of proportional representation like say, Mixed Member Proportional representation (MMP). While New Zealand used to have FPP, MMP has been in place for nearly 20 years. I think this helps the case that New Zealand is the oldest democracy. Can people please refrain from entering countries that did not have universal suffrage before 1893 - it's pointless and well, somewhat insulting. Jill, Auckland, New Zealand I agree with Jill, the first democracy based on Universal Adult Suffrage was New Zealand in 1893. However, New Zealand did not become an independent sovereign state until 1901 at the earliest when it achieved Dominion status. I disagree over the issue of constitutional monarchy, since such a monarchy is ceremonial and does not interfere into the workings of the executive or government. Therefore in all practical senses a constitutional monarchy is as democratic as any republic. There are plenty of republics around the World which are not even vaguely democratic. The first democracy based on Universal Male Suffrage is much more difficult to pin down. With the exception of indigenous people, the U.S. achieved Universal Male Suffrage in 1870. However, to a large extent this was on paper only. Black people were openly discouraged from voting in many Southern states until the 1960s. Its a complex issue, for example the Soviet Union achieved Universal Adult Suffrage in 1918 but no one would want to call the USSR a democracy of any real sort. So maybe democracy is more than just UAS. Perhaps its UAS plus free speech. Antony, London UK Repeat: Isle of Man women's suffrage 1881. Earlier than New Zealand. Also, prisoners can vote in Manx elections. Roger Spencer, Onchan Isle of Man No one has definitively answered this question. Just like most documents, it is how a person interprets the word democracy. Heck, we cannot even agree on one interpretation of the Bible. Good luck - like most governments y'all will agree to disagree. Jeff B, Anywhere, Texas USA I'm still confused. Edward, Athen Singapore I think if you want to answer that you need a definite definition of democracy. You also need to specify if you mean an entire country as a whole or any one province, state, region, town, kingdom, city, etc. of a country. If you mean any one part than Greece in the city of Athens. If you mean an entire country than like I said, "you need a definite definition of democracy." So basically we can almost all CLAIM to be the world's oldest democracy and we can argue about it all we want, but I don't think we'll come to an accurate and definite decision we all agree on. Hope this helps! Leah, Middleton MA USA How people can say the United States is the longest democracy is beyond me considering there treatment of both native and blacks. Blacks for example, after the War of Independence in America they called themselves the land of the free however Blacks in law were not allowed to vote and have the rights that white Americans did until the Civil war. Even then it wasn't until Johnson that they could actually vote in the south as after the civil war states in the south pass black laws called the Jim Crow laws restricting black rights. kieran, Liverpool United Kingdom AMERICANS have you Heard of the "Iroquois Confederacy" ? Look it up, Benjamin Franklin not only visited the Iroquois (Native American Tribe) He formed the american constitution based on how the Natives were Governing themselves. Sam, Ontario Canada I find this discussion fascinating, the way that it slows after Jill's intelligent input. Till her words, I read in disbelief the endless waring for the claim to "world's oldest democracy" whilst noting the lack of feminine input. We have perhaps come a long way but we still have so far to go. heather mann, france There is no exact answer. So I'm seeing on these answers that if females and minorities could not vote that it doesn't count as democracy ? That's an individual opinion. The laws change all the time an loop holes are made. It's a democracy with a chaser of republic added in the system. Current operating systems in power is China USA and UK as far as Economy management. The passed longest power were more than Likley India, Egypt and sum young dynasty. There is still many many question we don't know. Like we're do we come from? Monkeys? Read the bible an make a true choice an last as long as you can here on earth. Chris, Oakley USA Simplest way to put the US argument to bed? George Bush 2000. Oliver, London UK First of all I would like to clarify to someone who said a lot of bad things about Muslims being barbarians. Well tell you what can you blame Washington for all the slave troubles that America had and call him a human rights violater of the worst kind by creating a country that supports slavery. Can you blame King John for all those barbaric acts which gave birth to magna Carta or award him for enacting that? Can you blame the Christian clergy for starting the crusadeses? Just like that you cannot blame Muhammad for the atrocities commuted after his death. His is the system that was perfect that brought peace and prosperity to the deserts of Arabia were savages lived before him. As far as his character goes well pick up a Damn book and read the history first then you can say all you want. I completely agree that a lot of atrocities have been committed in the name of Islam and Muslims both in the distant past and the recent past something of which the true Muslims are highly ashamed but you cannot blame the true Muslims of the early 500s for it. As for the debate on democracy goes well I would put it on the day hazrat Abu bakr stood in the Centre of Madina after having chosen by the companions of the holy prophet (the electoral college of sort) and then asking the people who had come from all over Arabia upon the death of the holy prophet whether they would agree to him leading them and asking them that whenever they felt that he has misled them that day they should stop following him. This is the story of late 520s and probably the first stone of a democratic system that was lost later. And please read before you comment harshly on anyone it will answer your all queries. Imran, Peshawar Pakistan Obviously the standards for democracy, what it should mean, should be completely different when talking about really old ones like San Marino, Isle of Man and such. When talking about oldest, still existing democracies the race is between those countries. A second thing is the modern variant. Determining when all adults in a country can elect a Government free to decide without other interference in which case Finland will probably win and for instance the UK is slowing trying to become one; not because its a kingdom, but because of the House of Lords. More interesting is the quality of democracy, to what extend does it function? Buying votes, free press, direct or indirect representation, first past the post or coalitions, are not absolute. Scandinavian countries, Australia and New Zealand typically score highest. People in the USA like to consider unique, the best, first in everything. Relax. Do you know the name of the first country to recognize your country as independent? The united provinces of the Netherlands. And yes this confederation was rather democratic, no slavery and obviously an important inspiration/ example to american declaration writers in those times. The Netherlands has become a (parliamentary) kingdom and the quality of the democracy nowadays is amongst the best in the world, like the USA. Mirko, New York Us I'm assuming a very liberal interpretation of the word democracy. I'm counting anything in which the general populace is permitted some form of input in the government. I'm also considering that we are not counting a period of time before the nation was a democracy. And finally, I'm throwing out the pre-nation state feudal "democracies", for two reasons. 1.) They weren't countries as we know them yet, and 2.) most of those were more or less advisory councils rather than having any actual legislative power. (However, if you DO count these, Sweden becomes your answers). The United Kingdom has only been a democracy since the mid 1800s. It's hard to pin down a date, but the real start of it was the Reform Act of 1832, so a very liberal interpretation would be 131 years (well short of the USs 230 years, counting since the Treaty of Paris). The oldest continually sovereign nation on Earth is Turkey, who was last under foreign rule in 1243; however, its only been democratic since the 1920s. The United States was at one point the only truly democratic nation on Earth at one point. I note a few people above claiming universal sufferage to be the start-point in their arguments. By that measure, it's New Zealand. AJ Dembroski, Orlando, FL USA I cannot believe how many in this country(USA) have no idea what a republic is. I've noticed in the recent Republican hate anything about Democrats era, that Republicans think "Democracy" has anything to do with Democrats, or that "Republic" means Republican. Republic is the type of country we are. Meaning we do not have a Monarchy in place. The country "belongs" to the people. But, and it's a big BUT; we are a Constitutional Liberal(boy are the Republicans going to hate that world, which simply means the citizens have protected basic rights in this instance) Representative Democracy(in that we elect people and endow them with our democratic power to govern.) This does not mean a Monarchy, such as the UK is not a democracy, it, too is a Liberal Representative Democracy, that is also a Constitutional Monarchy. Republicans think calling the country a Republic means it has something to do with them. Read your history, the original Democratic-Republicans wanted a more loose Federal control(oh yeah the U.S. is also Federation) the Federalists were a party that wanted more central power in the Federal government. The Democratic-Republicans, eventually just became the Democrats. The Federalists died out and were eventually replaced by the Republicans. The first Republican president, Lincoln, believed in an indivisible U.S., while the Democrats believed in states rights to separate during the civil war. These ideas have been switched between parties in the modern era. A lot of that happened during the 1960's civil rights era when a lot of southern Democrats became Republicans. The U.S.A. can be a Republic(type of country), Liberal(the rights of the citizen protected) Democracy(the government is elected by the people, either directly or indirectly), and even a Federation(power shared by a central government and other sovereign entities, i.e. the states)So please enough of this the U.S.A. is a Republic not a Democracy rubbish because I know you are only saying that because you believe somehow that means Republicans are the best, when the term has nothing to do with the party who were originally formed for a stronger central government. Republic simply means no monarchy. Iran is an Islamic Republic, the U.S. is a Democratic Republic. You can be a republic without being a democracy, but in the case of the U.S., it is both. Darrel, Columbus, OH. USA With regard to the House of Lords, its representatives are not there by birth right but by merit. They are not real lords or aristocrats. They are selected. The House of Lords has no right to introduce legislation, only to modify existing bills. They have no power whatsoever to modify finance bills. They act as a safeguard. I see no reason why this should affect our status as a democracy. No common sense person would deny that Britain is a modern democracy. Just as no commons sense person would deny the US is a modern democracy. Tony, LONDON UK Democracy = government by the people. I don't think government by an oligarchy chosen by a minority of the people from a list of (usually very wealthy) prospective oligarchs counts as democracy. I see 'democracy' as a kind of 'branding', which is applied to various kinds of government in order to make them look more attractive. (It's rather like the word 'natural' on food packaging.) I'm not aware of any country which is governed by its people. If anyone here knows of one then please give us details. Paul, Oxford UK It would seem that everyone can agree that there is no 'true or absolute democracy' in existence. Thus the question should naturally be modified as what is the country with the oldest existing 'form' of democracy? Jezza, Sydney, Australia We already know the one with the oldest form of democracy it's Greece. We are looking for the one with the longest standing uninterrupted. Alexandros, SYDNEY Australia The ISO (International Organization for Standardization) now classifies the Isle of Man as a country! So perhaps you cannot so easily dismiss the Isle of Man by saying it's 'not a country'. Additionally, the Isle of Man is not, and has never been, part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland. Ian, Sydney Australia With your learned (thus almost instinctive) look at Western civilization for your answers, you overlook the native Americans (Indians). Though no one knows how long they have held fully participatory democracies, the origins of a great confederacy uniting five great nations in peace, was established on the afternoon of August 31, 1142 (soon after a total eclipse). As native tribes are still "nations" by law and tradition, theirs are the longest standing. This makes sense in that they did not use money or barter as a medium of exchange. There was no land ownership, as it is understood today. There were chiefs, but they did only as instructed after deliberations by all members of the tribe. They weren't of a higher class than the rest of the tribe. They were also a matriarchal society, and it was a woman's responsibility to keep the peace which was maintained through democracy. GailG3, Myrtle Beach, SC USA Such an interesting topic - the main issue is how does one define 'democracy'. If one speaks of the oldest AND continuous democracies, then any country that was invaded or where martial law has been declared, or where the constitution has provisions allowing for it's suspension will not make the list. Most European nations are out (Nazi invasion), USA is out (martial law). What is left are (mostly) the constitutional monarchies - Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden and the republic of Switzerland. New Zealand and Australia gave women the vote earlier than most. Interestingly, if one goes to the UN website, it makes a distinction between 'true' democracies and 'flawed' democracies. Many of the 'true' democracies are constitutional monarchies. The US is a 'flawed' democracy according to the site - although I confess to not actually knowing why! Andrew, Melbourne Australia Ancient Greece was not a democracy and neither was the early USA. No country where a significant percentage of the population is made up of slaves can possibly claim to be democratic. Max Sommers, Brookmans Park UK People of Texas please stop posting your advice if it at all is going to reference the bible or god. Do you know how long I have been trying to prove that not all Texans are bible thumping ignorant hicks? Jaime Wilken, Austin, Texas USA How come people keep on forgetting about Finland all the time? True universal suffrage - where women were also eligible for election, not just voting - was implemented already in 1906, with world's first female parliamentarians taking their seats the year after. Obviously Finland would go on for another decade before becoming truly independent, but nevertheless ALL citizens of this Nordic republic have enjoyed universal suffrage for over a century now. THAT should determine the true meaning of DEMOCRACY and not just whether there has been some kind of a parliament for ages or not. Eric, Stockholm Sweden The first polity to introduce Universal Suffrage was New Zealand in 1893, not Finland. Tony, Lodon UK Thanks Jill for posting some common sense on the debate, not that there haven't been other good points made by others. As a fellow Kiwi I would also put forward New Zealand as the world's oldest continuous democracy. The Isle of Man is well known for it early experience of universal suffrage but I just can't see it as a country, a sovereign state eligible for the United Nations and so forth. 1893 for full universal suffrage puts NZ ahead of all other countries (and New Zealand voting rights to indigenous people from 1852) put it ahead of Finland and other Scandinavian countries, and ahead of Canada, Australia and so on who refused to recognise indigenous rights until the 1960s. The other point, which has been made by others, is that Norway, Denmark, and Finland have been invaded and occupied by foreign powers in the 20th century so their democracies cannot qualify as continuous. And sorry Switzerland, the gnomes of Zurich didn't give their wives the full vote until the 1970s. Stephen, Auckland, New Zealand Anyone thought about the Australian Aborigines - 40,000 years? Conrad Artkinson, San Francisco, US 1a. Government by the people, especially: rule of the majority 1b. A government in which the supreme power is in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free. Nowhere does it mention universal suffrage, just the rule of the majority - the people rule, not a dictator. The USA is the oldest democracy in the world. Kyle, Buffalo, NY, US The US cannot really be comsidered a true democracy when some US states do not allow US citizens to stand for public office if they do not believe in fairy tales - sorry, I mean God. Everybody in a democracy whether they are non believers or believers in religious fairy tales should stand in any public office, just like we do in Britain. The current Labour party leader is modern as he is an athiest. Graham, Ludlow, UK President Obama, representing the USA, has done it again! In his speech addressing the problems in Syria (with respect to chemical weapons and the calling for intervention, 11 September 2013) Obama stated: "America is the worlds oldest democracy" (I forget the precise words used now, but words to that effect). Wrong! For all the reasons mentioned already in this thread, there are a myriad of other nations with longer historic claims, one way or another, to this title. How can Obama (and his advisers/speech writing team), think that this was a good statement to make? He was talking to a global audience with incorrect historic and geographic facts. That one phrase probably instantly put 95% of his listeners off, or at least deflected their attention from his cause. If you cannot even get geo-historic-political facts right, when you are talking about current geopolitical issues then people will turn off. That aside it was a phrase irrelevant to the "humanitarian cause" anyway. As soon as Obama said those words I started researching 'history facts' and came across this thread as a result. In fact I did not listen to the rest of his speech as I was researching this. Perhaps that shows that history is more important than some people realise. Not only was Obama's asserted fact wrong, but how can he be stupid enough to have preached that statement to a global audience. Please Mr Obama / White House, drop this incorrect historic claim in an attempt to pat yourself on the back. The eyes of the world were upon you. That attitude is only turning the global audience away. With Obama's intellect and culturally mixed background, I am even more surprised to hear him say this. I am surprised factually, politically and diplomatically that you even said that. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This Guardian thread has dominated over world current affairs (for me)! Mike, Lymington, UK Great comments. I think the Republic of San Morino wins the claim to oldest democracy. A democracy is simply a government in which people vote for their leaders. The requirements for citizenship vary in all nations and universal suffrage is always limited. Immigrants, for example, can reside in all countries for long periods of time without gaining suffrage and becoming citizens, yet the countries in which they live are still democracies in which the leaders are elected. I would point out, however, that the celebration of democracy evident in these comments can be traced back to the Declaration of Independence and the revolutionary assertion that governments derive their authority not from God, but from the consent of the governed. Justin Pope, Washington DC, US I was looking at the 1788 Constitution of South Carolina this afternoon, which was not revised until some 50 years later. I was interested in its pivotal role in the presidential election of 1800, when the US House of Representatives broke the draw in the electoral college and declared for Jefferson. Whereas freeholders with property worth 40 shillings could vote for county members of parliament in England (there was no such restriction for MPs from boroughs), voters in South Carolina had to own property worth 50 pounds, or its taxable equivalent in town lots. They had to be white adult males, of course. They also had to declare belief in God, and in a future state of reward and punishment. Members of the state's General Assembly had to be Protestants. Members of the lower chamber, if not resident in their district, had to own property there worth 3,500 pounds, clear of debt. Members of the Senate had to own property worth 2,000 or, if non-resident, 7,000 pounds. The Governor and Lt-Governor had to own property worth 10,000 pounds in the state. And be Protestants, obviously. In 1800, the population of South Carolina was 346,000. There were about 39,000 adult white males. 13,000 cast votes in the election for the US House of Representatives. As it happened, this was the nearest they ever got to voting for the President, thanks to the deadlock. They did not vote for the US Senators, who were selected by the General Assembly. They did not vote for members of the electoral college, which chose the President, because they were elected by the General Assembly. Thanks to huge variation in the size of the Congressional districts, the House delegation could be quite different in its balance to that of the General Assembly, and therefore that of the electoral college delegation, as was the case in 1800. The notion that the United States was set up as a democracy is a delusion. The Founders abhorred democracy. The country was set up as an oligarchy or, as optimistic Jefferson hoped, an aristocracy. Hamilton had wanted an elected monarchy, with a lifetime term. In fact, the powers of the President were almost precisely modelled on those of George IV, and they have increased over time, although his Cabinet members are not members of Congress and political patronage is far more extensive. David Harley, South Bend, US I am utterly astonished by the number of comments stating Britain or Iceland or USA. The oldest form of democracy in recorded history is Athens. Though it did not allow everybody to vote, it allowed the most important people. Obviously their democracy would be ridiculous by today's standards, that does not change the fact that they were the first. It could be argued that some level of democracy was present as far back as ancient Sumeria, where the kings had not total power but had to cosult with free men. Regardless, claiming that democracy started after Athens is ridiculous Eoghan Dwyer, Longford, Ireland I feel sorry for the UK. Most of the people in the UK are biased, and claim that the UK made everything. I beg to differ, because we must not forget the Germanic Empire and Roman Empire, which was far greater than the British empire in terms of influence, lol. Where do you limeys think English came from, lol. English came from Germanic invaders, lol. As for the Revolutinary War in the USA. Well, the UK didn't beat the USA by its lonesome, lol. The UK had massive troop shortages, so the UK had to bring in Hesians, aka Germans to help them fight. Half of the UK fighting force in the USA was Hesian, aka German. However, the UK will distort this bona fide fact and take all of the credit, lol. Can anyone blame the Americans, when they asked France for help. You Brits came in with a foreign fighting force and even had the Native Americans on your side as well. Haha, the UK is good at telling fibs. As for the oldest Democracy in the World, any idiot would know it's the Republic of San Marino, hahaha. Its not the Isle of man, lol. Also, France is older than England and it has a far greater past from the roman tribes. Rome is the greatest Empire that ever existed, not the UK. JAFO, Seattle, Wa USA The Republic of San Marino is the oldest. Yep, it's a country inside of Italy. It's hard to miss, but it's the oldest Democracy in the World. Machine, Munich Germany You silly people. The USA is the oldest Democracy in the modern World. The UK is still a Constitutional monarchy. Which means that a King or Queen is still the head of state. The UK isn't its own Gov for the people, because of the monarchy. In the USA, the people are the US.Gov. In the UK, the Queen or King represents the people of the UK. A US President is a normal person that came from the people elected by the people, and the same is true for Congress and the Senate. In the UK, a King or Queen has to be born out of the stock that has been brewing for 100s of years. So, how could the UK be a Democracy? When the head of state has to be born into power. The people don't get to choose who their head of state will be in the UK. They have to settle for the same brew centuy after century. Whereas in the USA, the people spawn its leaders and you're always getting a new generation of leaders, not the same old soup from the pot. The same holds true for Greece and Italy. They had kings or Leaders born into power as well. I don't need an educated British rebuttal, because the Queen or King of the UK still has powers: Declare war, dissolve parliament, appoint PM, fire PM, and do the same stuff in her commonwealth realm. Hence, she's dissolved Canadian parliament 3 times in the last 8 years, lol. There is a difference between a Queen and King ran country, vs a country that lets the people vote on its leader. Grab a book people. Adam, NYC USA The president said the U.S. is the oldest democracy in the world. Hes not the first to say it. President George W. Bush said it before him. Filmmaker Michael Moore said it. Hillary Clinton said it. Whats the truth? Other nations developed working democracies long before the U.S., so taken charitably the statement probably is supposed to mean that the U.S. has the longest run as a democracy up through the present. Using that understanding, the U.S. might qualify as the oldest democracy if one narrows the term sufficiently. A confederacy of Indian tribes and Iceland both lay claim to reasonable challenges, though both the Iroquois and Icelandic claims are open to question on the basis of continuity. Great Britain and tiny San Marino also make claims as the oldest democracy. The spotty history and weak current state of the Six Nations along with Icelands relatively recent constitution could serve to weaken their claims . Some might disqualify Great Britain because of its monarchy and extensive parliamentary reform. Some might disqualify San Marino on the basis of its small size. With careful parsing one might sustain the claim that the U.S. is the oldest modern democracy. We dont see much point in pressing the claim. Nor do we see much point in disputing it. The U.S. is the most obvious sustained model of self-governance in the world. Lets just leave it at that. Dennis , Kent UK Barbados House of Assembley began meeting in 1639. Barbados is the oldest legislative body in the western hemisphere. John Walrond, Bridgetown, Caribbean Just to clarify, the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy, not an Absolute Monarchy. That is to say, a democracy and not a tyranny. The monarch has no power of arrest or power to legislate. The role of the monarch is ceremonial. True executive power lies in the hands of the Prime Minister, who like the American president, comes from the people. The first democracy on the basis of Universal Adult Suffrage is New Zealand. The first democracy on the basis of Universal Male Suffrage is probably the US. However, America has two problems, because prior to the Civil War, the US was a slave owning society and slave owning is just about as undemocratic as it gets. Second, the conquest of the West, so called manifest destiny, i.e. an extension of US territory into the land of the indigenous people at gunpoint, by bad guys like General Custer. Again, hardly what may be described as democratic. Tony, LONDON UK



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