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As shannee



Please bear in mind that while witting this post I will try to remain as factual as possible, which will not be easy.



Bear in mind I have been working as a psychiatrist specializing in and working with victims of child abuse.



Please bear in mind it is always highly speculative and risky to try and make any kind of analysis without actually knowing the people in the first place. I am only indulging it because I have been a fan since 1996, watched and read countless interwiews,and books about these guys, but I’m still warning you, and myself of how limited this is and should always be taken with a big grain of salt





I’ll just try to shed some light into the reasons for some behaviours, that seem quite logical to me, not because of any particular gift, but because of what I do for a living.



Now, if you wish, accompany me in the following journey, I will try to give you the references I’m getting things from along the text:







1. The Gallagher household, as everyone knows here was a violent, dysfunctional one. Kids growing up in these kind of envioronment tend to have to deal with a hell of a lot of psychological stresses. Also, bear in mind, we are a product of nature and nurture, and no 2 people are born exactly the same, and this will modulate the amout and the type of psychopathology and personality traits these kids develop. The most prevalent being: Low emotional IQ, some degree of narcissistic personality traits, clinical depression and some sort of language or speech production disorder.







2. We know, from multiple sources (the Live Forever documentary, multiple books), that Liam was subjected to a lot of psychological violence (as a witness), while Paul, and particularly Noel (again Live for ever documentary), were subjected to physical and psychological violence. The degree of this isn’t mild- I’d recommend reading the chapter of “gettng high” by Paolo Hewitt where he describes the “tobacco/cigarrettes” incident with Noel. Now close your eyes, picture yourself as a young kid in that situation. Can you imagine the degree of impulsiveness and agressiveness it takes to act towards a son like Thomas Gallagher did? Can you imagine the fear and the degree of vulnearbility Noel felt in that moment? Add to that the simple fact that a father is na authority figure, but also an emotional reference that is desirably predictable, when they are not, they hinder these kids the capacity of developing trust in themselves as well as trust in others. Also, put yourself in Liam’s shoes imagine being a young kid and being left alone, for hours on end. Imagine witnessing your brothers and your mother being beaten, unable to do anything against it, while not being beaten up yourself, imagine the amount of questions that arose in those heads (for Liam- why not me?; for Noel, why especially me?)







3. Dysfunctional families breed dysfunctional people that will breed dysfuncutional families themselves. Now, we don’t know much about Thomas Gallaher, but what we know is heavy enough to grant him the diagnosis of Narcissictic Personality Disorder: The 5 criteria needed (out of 9) are quite likely met:







A) A grandiose sense of self-importance (“you will never leave me”, Live Forever doc)



B) Interpersonally exploitive behavior (self explanatory in the treatment he gave Peggy)



C) A lack of empathy (again, self explanatory, no-one leaves the house for days on end with no justification, doesn’t care to meet his kids emotional and material needs if they can empathise)



D) A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes (again, self explanatory)



E) A sense of entitlement (again he doesn’t feel he needs to justify any behaviour because he is entitled to it)



AND



He shows no remorse on the consequence of his actions.







4. The structure of the family of the narcissist parent tends to follow a similar pattern, because the narcissist bestowes different roles to different members, that feed the narcissist need for “supply”( defined as a type sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment and essential to their self-esteem). The most common roles attributed to their kids are usually the scapegoat and the golden child (sometimes these roles may be swapped according to the narcissist’s convenience, but, they are most commonly “stable”).







The Scapegoat (SG)- the “rebel” who recieves the brunt of abuse, criticism and shaming. The ones that are constantly being blamed. Usually they are the first to “notice” the narcissist, and tend to recieve so much adversity that they find some sort of inner “strenght” that no-one else in the family will have. Coping mechanisms usually make SG withdraw and distance themselves from the abusive family and their reality







The Golden Child (GC)- Usually mostly spared from mistreatment, usually exalted and praised by the narcissist, but is made clear that this special treatment will change in case he doesn’t meet the narcissist parent’s demand (usually demostrations of some sort of “skill” the parent is “proud of”, be it academic, physical, social, sexual...).



They are frequently reminded of how similar they are to them. This is usually very painful, particularly when the GC realises how badly others are treated, after years of being likened to and given preferential treatment by the narcissistic parent.



Beware, being a scapegoat is in no way better than being the golden child, but usually the relationship between both of them is not a healthy one, despite the fact that they can appear to be best friends as children, there are usually deep problems steming from the roles assigned to them:







a) The SG will always identify the GC with the parent to some extent, not trusting and, in a way envying the GC or dismissing them as “spoilt”



b) The GC will always find the SG was not perferentially abused, or that that must have happened for some reason (either the SG is weird, unfriendly or unhelpful)







5. Abused kids and their families more often than not carry these patterns of behaviour into adultdood and display their old roles towards each other, even if they can function normally towards others. They also propably display narcissistic traits themselves







a. SG are usually assumed to be very independent and needless of help by themselves and their families, and tend to detach themselves, not being helped by the fact that they have lower expressed emotion scores than the general population (a remaing from the time where they could not express fear, nor pain while being abused to prevent the narcissistic parent to “get reawarded”), as well as lower capacity to recognise emotion in others, hence being seen as cold and distant by their families. Usually narcicssistic traits they usually display are related to lack of empathy, that associated with a “uber focus” on achievement may lead to an exploitative interpersonal behaviour, conciously or unconciously and tend to regard themselves as misunderstood or “only understood by others like them”. They are usually not helped by how they are percieved by others, as usually people will not realise or emphasise with the SG struggles, as they are frequently seen as capable of dealing with things







b. GC usually dislpay different nascissistic traits, tendencially of entitlement (“the sense that someone has the right to have special tratment”), the need of admiration and validation and lack of empathy. Now, usually, even after the narcissistic parent is gone, familes replay these roles by reinforcing how “special” that person is, due to their constant need for validation. GC tend to want to have people around that reinforce their “need” for special protection and care.







Now, based on what we know, the pattern above, it would seem clear to anyone working in this area that Noel was the Scapegoat, and quite likely, Liam was the Golden Child (going by interviews Thomas Gallagher gave where he is still dismissive of Noel, and still likens himself to Liam, after all these years, for instance that disgusting article by the Daily Mail (?) or the Sun (?), published around the time of Liam’s divorce from Nicole, saying for instance, that “he took a chip off the old man shoulder”, hell even Noel himself abelled him “the golden child”.







Obviously these are loose schetches, but I think it paints a general portrait of the thing, each one of them may, at times display different traits.







Many problems stem from the fact that not only they acquired these roles, they were also “forced” to cohabit closely with each other, adding strain to what is usually a difficult relationship.







These traits may be accomodated by other people, but not by one another. For instance – Liam’s entitlement makes him think it is OK to abandon recording sessions to get married, Noel’s perception of him makes it impossible to empathise and solve the problem for the greater good, and also because the SG will never accept the entitlement of the GC.







Also, these theories of who’s siding with who after split ups, regardless of how they may have been capitalized by the Gallaghers themselves are absolutely shallow. Noel responds with detatchment and doesn’t stay in touch, so nor do the others, Liam surrounds himself wilth people that will utimately also help feed his need for validation, from people who used to give it to him. It is also very likely that external pelople don’t get to see these traits as often, or as clearly, because they direct it primarily towards each other (Noel, Russel Brand Show, 2009- Liam will make everyone a cup of tea, except me)





Not only this, the “neutral” brother, probably unconsioulsy feeds this circle - Check, for instance the interview with Paul in the stage left podcast in 2015, he cleary states that Noel doesn’t need protection, Liam does (or words to the same effect). He doesn’t refrain himself from saying he doesn’t like parts of Chasing Yesterday, even alluding to the fact that “the record needs Liam”, while almost aquiring an agressive inflection in his voice when the subject of Liam’s voice issues are raised, saying “he has no problems with his voice”. This seems to like the 3 of them rapidly fitting into their “old roles” as modeled within the family.







The further this continues, the worse it will become. Right now, the more Liam tweets about Noel or any of his family, possibly in search for his daily validation and approval need, the more detached and cold Noel will become, from him, the rest of the family and old friends, possibly even implying Peggy along the way. That is his oldest and more efficatious "go to" response.





It also goes to show how absolutely unempathical they can be towards each other – Noel is unable to empathise with Liam’s suffering while at “his lowest” (even bearing in mind the had other ways of coming back, as has been proven), Liam is unable to empathise with Noel in order not to try to destroy his career as payback (even if the end results won't be as drastic).



So no, the best case scenario in every family may not be that they keep talking if they are ultimately hurting each other.











Well… After reading this thread and a few others that left me very unconfortable with the oversimplification of issues, here's my take.Asso briliantly put it, Wlcome to my TEDtalk:Please bear in mind that while witting this post I will try to remain as factual as possible, which will not be easy.Bear in mind I have been working as a psychiatrist specializing in and working with victims of child abuse.Please bear in mind it is always highly speculative and risky to try and make any kind of analysis without actually knowing the people in the first place. I am only indulging it because I have been a fan since 1996, watched and read countless interwiews,and books about these guys, but I’m still warning you, and myself of how limited this is and should always be taken with a big grain of saltI’ll just try to shed some light into the reasons for some behaviours, that seem quite logical to me, not because of any particular gift, but because of what I do for a living.Now, if you wish, accompany me in the following journey, I will try to give you the references I’m getting things from along the text:1. The Gallagher household, as everyone knows here was a violent, dysfunctional one. Kids growing up in these kind of envioronment tend to have to deal with a hell of a lot of psychological stresses. Also, bear in mind, we are a product of nature and nurture, and no 2 people are born exactly the same, and this will modulate the amout and the type of psychopathology and personality traits these kids develop. The most prevalent being: Low emotional IQ, some degree of narcissistic personality traits, clinical depression and some sort of language or speech production disorder.2. We know, from multiple sources (the Live Forever documentary, multiple books), that Liam was subjected to a lot of psychological violence (as a witness), while Paul, and particularly Noel (again Live for ever documentary), were subjected to physical and psychological violence. The degree of this isn’t mild- I’d recommend reading the chapter of “gettng high” by Paolo Hewitt where he describes the “tobacco/cigarrettes” incident with Noel. Now close your eyes, picture yourself as a young kid in that situation. Can you imagine the degree of impulsiveness and agressiveness it takes to act towards a son like Thomas Gallagher did? Can you imagine the fear and the degree of vulnearbility Noel felt in that moment? Add to that the simple fact that a father is na authority figure, but also an emotional reference that is desirably predictable, when they are not, they hinder these kids the capacity of developing trust in themselves as well as trust in others. Also, put yourself in Liam’s shoes imagine being a young kid and being left alone, for hours on end. Imagine witnessing your brothers and your mother being beaten, unable to do anything against it, while not being beaten up yourself, imagine the amount of questions that arose in those heads (for Liam- why not me?; for Noel, why especially me?)3. Dysfunctional families breed dysfunctional people that will breed dysfuncutional families themselves. Now, we don’t know much about Thomas Gallaher, but what we know is heavy enough to grant him the diagnosis of Narcissictic Personality Disorder: The 5 criteria needed (out of 9) are quite likely met:A) A grandiose sense of self-importance (“you will never leave me”, Live Forever doc)B) Interpersonally exploitive behavior (self explanatory in the treatment he gave Peggy)C) A lack of empathy (again, self explanatory, no-one leaves the house for days on end with no justification, doesn’t care to meet his kids emotional and material needs if they can empathise)D) A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes (again, self explanatory)E) A sense of entitlement (again he doesn’t feel he needs to justify any behaviour because he is entitled to it)ANDHe shows no remorse on the consequence of his actions.4. The structure of the family of the narcissist parent tends to follow a similar pattern, because the narcissist bestowes different roles to different members, that feed the narcissist need for “supply”( defined as a type sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment and essential to their self-esteem). The most common roles attributed to their kids are usually the scapegoat and the golden child (sometimes these roles may be swapped according to the narcissist’s convenience, but, they are most commonly “stable”).The Scapegoat (SG)- the “rebel” who recieves the brunt of abuse, criticism and shaming. The ones that are constantly being blamed. Usually they are the first to “notice” the narcissist, and tend to recieve so much adversity that they find some sort of inner “strenght” that no-one else in the family will have. Coping mechanisms usually make SG withdraw and distance themselves from the abusive family and their realityThe Golden Child (GC)- Usually mostly spared from mistreatment, usually exalted and praised by the narcissist, but is made clear that this special treatment will change in case he doesn’t meet the narcissist parent’s demand (usually demostrations of some sort of “skill” the parent is “proud of”, be it academic, physical, social, sexual...).They are frequently reminded of how similar they are to them. This is usually very painful, particularly when the GC realises how badly others are treated, after years of being likened to and given preferential treatment by the narcissistic parent.Beware, being a scapegoat is in no way better than being the golden child, but usually the relationship between both of them is not a healthy one, despite the fact that they can appear to be best friends as children, there are usually deep problems steming from the roles assigned to them:a) The SG will always identify the GC with the parent to some extent, not trusting and, in a way envying the GC or dismissing them as “spoilt”b) The GC will always find the SG was not perferentially abused, or that that must have happened for some reason (either the SG is weird, unfriendly or unhelpful)5. Abused kids and their families more often than not carry these patterns of behaviour into adultdood and display their old roles towards each other, even if they can function normally towards others. They also propably display narcissistic traits themselvesa. SG are usually assumed to be very independent and needless of help by themselves and their families, and tend to detach themselves, not being helped by the fact that they have lower expressed emotion scores than the general population (a remaing from the time where they could not express fear, nor pain while being abused to prevent the narcissistic parent to “get reawarded”), as well as lower capacity to recognise emotion in others, hence being seen as cold and distant by their families. Usually narcicssistic traits they usually display are related to lack of empathy, that associated with a “uber focus” on achievement may lead to an exploitative interpersonal behaviour, conciously or unconciously and tend to regard themselves as misunderstood or “only understood by others like them”. They are usually not helped by how they are percieved by others, as usually people will not realise or emphasise with the SG struggles, as they are frequently seen as capable of dealing with thingsb. GC usually dislpay different nascissistic traits, tendencially of entitlement (“the sense that someone has the right to have special tratment”), the need of admiration and validation and lack of empathy. Now, usually, even after the narcissistic parent is gone, familes replay these roles by reinforcing how “special” that person is, due to their constant need for validation. GC tend to want to have people around that reinforce their “need” for special protection and care.Now, based on what we know, the pattern above, it would seem clear to anyone working in this area that Noel was the Scapegoat, and quite likely, Liam was the Golden Child (going by interviews Thomas Gallagher gave where he is still dismissive of Noel, and still likens himself to Liam, after all these years, for instance that disgusting article by the Daily Mail (?) or the Sun (?), published around the time of Liam’s divorce from Nicole, saying for instance, that “he took a chip off the old man shoulder”, hell even Noel himself abelled him “the golden child”.Obviously these are loose schetches, but I think it paints a general portrait of the thing, each one of them may, at times display different traits.Many problems stem from the fact that not only they acquired these roles, they were also “forced” to cohabit closely with each other, adding strain to what is usually a difficult relationship.These traits may be accomodated by other people, but not by one another. For instance – Liam’s entitlement makes him think it is OK to abandon recording sessions to get married, Noel’s perception of him makes it impossible to empathise and solve the problem for the greater good, and also because the SG will never accept the entitlement of the GC.Also, these theories of who’s siding with who after split ups, regardless of how they may have been capitalized by the Gallaghers themselves are absolutely shallow. Noel responds with detatchment and doesn’t stay in touch, so nor do the others, Liam surrounds himself wilth people that will utimately also help feed his need for validation, from people who used to give it to him. It is also very likely that external pelople don’t get to see these traits as often, or as clearly, because they direct it primarily towards each other (Noel, Russel Brand Show, 2009- Liam will make everyone a cup of tea, except me)Not only this, the “neutral” brother, probably unconsioulsy feeds this circle - Check, for instance the interview with Paul in the stage left podcast in 2015, he cleary states that Noel doesn’t need protection, Liam does (or words to the same effect). He doesn’t refrain himself from saying he doesn’t like parts of Chasing Yesterday, even alluding to the fact that “the record needs Liam”, while almost aquiring an agressive inflection in his voice when the subject of Liam’s voice issues are raised, saying “he has no problems with his voice”. This seems to like the 3 of them rapidly fitting into their “old roles” as modeled within the family.The further this continues, the worse it will become. Right now, the more Liam tweets about Noel or any of his family, possibly in search for his daily validation and approval need, the more detached and cold Noel will become, from him, the rest of the family and old friends, possibly even implying Peggy along the way. That is his oldest and more efficatious "go to" response.It also goes to show how absolutely unempathical they can be towards each other – Noel is unable to empathise with Liam’s suffering while at “his lowest” (even bearing in mind the had other ways of coming back, as has been proven), Liam is unable to empathise with Noel in order not to try to destroy his career as payback (even if the end results won't be as drastic).So no, the best case scenario in every family may not be that they keep talking if they are ultimately hurting each other.