EmNGiantNome Profile Blog Joined October 2012 United States 125 Posts #1 With INnoVation's recent GSL vs The World Victory there has been a lot of talk about him surpassing Life and Mvp as the GOAT (greatest of all time). There's a quote by Ronald Coase, a Nobel Prize winner in Economics that goes like this "if you torture the data enough, it will confess." In this case people are torturing INnoVation’s statistics to claim that INnoVation, who is a great player, is one of the GOAT’s.



While INnoVation is a great player, and certainly should be discussed any time a conversation about who Starcraft 2's GOAT is, his accomplishments have not surpassed those of Life, Mvp, and I would argue Taeja as well. By examining win rates in competitive matches, playoff to championship conversion rates, and head to head statistics we can see just how well INnoVation stacks up to these gods of Starcraft.



Of these four players INnoVation has one thing going for him. He has the highest overall win rate over the most amount of games compared to his contemporaries. His overall win rate of 68.27% across 1957 games is 5.6% higher than Life’s 62.71% win rate across 1810 games. It's 4.12% higher than Taeja’s 64.15% win rate across 1947 games. And it's 6.22% higher than Mvp’s 62.05% across 867 games. Simply looking at total win percentages in competitive matches you'd have to give INnoVation the edge. The problem is, how do those win percentages translate into playoff victories.



Winning when it counts. This is what separates the GOAT’s from the greats. INnoVation has reached the top four of premier tournaments a total of 16 times, winning 7 of them. Life on the other hand reached the top 4 of premier tournaments 20 times, winning 10 of them. Mvp reached the top 4 of premier tournaments 18 times, winning 9 times. And Taeja reached the top 4 of premier tournaments a total of 25 times, winning 11 times. Of the 4 players on this list INnoVation has the worst playoff performance with a total conversion of playoffs to championships of 43.75%. Taeja came close with a 44% conversion rate but across 9 additional premier events. And Life and Mvp both boast conversion rates of 50%. Life and Mvp converted semi finals appearances to championships 6.25% more often and they did so across more events. In this category INnoVation at best ties for last with Taeja as they have virtually identical conversion rates. But Taeja did it across 9 more premier tournaments than INnoVation. So INnoVation has both the worst conversion rate of the four and the least number of semi finals appearances.



It’s at this point that many people bring up the quality of INnoVations premier tournament placings compared to, especially Taeja’s, but Life’s and Mvp’s as well. The two points being that Taeja won all his tournaments at DreamHacks, HomeStory Cups, and ASUS ROGs. And that Life and Mvp won their tournaments at a time when the game was easier. So let’s compare the quality of some of Taeja’s top 4 appearances to INnoVation’s. Taeja defeated Solar to win IEM Shenzen in 2014, MC at HomeStory Cup in 2014, Life at Dreamhack in 2013, MC again at ASUS ROG in 2012, and most importantly Taeja actually defeated INnoVation 3 games to 0 at Dreamhack in 2013. These are premier event victories regardless of the fact that they aren’t GSLs. And on top of that Taeja actually beat INnoVation in one of these quote unquote lesser tournament finals. If INnoVations tournament wins were of such a higher quality than Taeja’s you’d think he would have defeated Taeja at one of these weaker events, but he didn’t. And in Taeja’s 12 premier tournament semi finals losses 2 were to Life in GSL Code S, 1 was to Life in Dreamhack Winter, 1 was to RorO in RorOs road to winning GSL Code S, and one was to $O$, the 100 thousand dollar man, in the 100 thousand dollar winner take all IEM World Championship, which sOs would go on to win. It is true that Taeja was never able to claim a GSL Code S victory of his own but his other performances more than make up for it. Oddly enough people level the same criticism at Life because he only won 2 GSL Code S finals while INnoVation won 2 GSLs and an SSL. But INnoVations 2 GSL wins were over soO, the Kongiest Kong in the history of Kongs, and Byul who made a strong run at Konghood with a total finals record of 0 and 4 in premier tournaments. Where as Life beat Mvp, the winningest player in GSL history, while walking the Royal Road, meaning he won GSL Code S in his first GSL Code S appearance. And in his second GSL Code S victory, Life defeated Parting who is a strong Protoss and a contender for any championship. Furthermore Life is a 2 time Global Finals finalist and 1 time WCS Global Finals champion. On his way to his World Championship title Life defeated Taeja, who had defeated INnoVation 3 to 1 the round before. And in his second run to the finals of the WCS Global Finals, Life defeated INnoVation 3 to 1. Not only are these guys winning championships, they are beating INnoVation on their way there.



The second point was that Life and Mvp won their tournaments at a time when the game was easier than it was when INnoVation won his. To be fair Life, Taeja, and Mvp were all retired before INnoVation’s most successful year, 2017, so we’ll never truly be able to compare their peak performances against the exact same talent pool, on the exact same maps, within the exact same state of balance. INnoVations premier tournament victories broken down by year go like so: 1 championship in 2013, 1 championship in 2014, 2 championships in 2015, 1 championship in 2016, and 2 championships in 2017. Mvp, on the other hand, won 8 of his 9 premier tournament finals between January of 2011 and August of 2012. Now I would never argue that Wings of Liberty is a harder game than Heart of the Swarm or Legacy of the Void. But it’s important to put Mvp’s wins into context. Mvp won many of these tournaments, including BlizzCon 2011, in the most imbalanced era in the history of Starcraft 2, and it wasn’t in his favor. During the BroodLord Infestor era Mvp was able to win a GSL Code S, an MLG, a WCG, an IEM, and a Blizzcon. This imbalance plus the fact that INnoVation claimed 3 of his titles against 2 of the weakest finals players of all time in soO and Byul certainly suggests that Mvps championship runs were more difficult than INnoVations, even if the general skill level of all players now may very well be higher than it was in Wings of Liberty.



When it comes to Life there should be no debate as to whether the game was easier in the HoTS era than the LoTV era. From 2013 to 2015 Life won 7 of his 10 premier tournament championships including a GSL Code S, a WCS Global Finals, 2 IEMs, and he made it to the final of a second WCS Global Finals where he defeated INnoVation 3 to 1. This was the peak of KeSPA dominance in the Starcraft 2 scene and obviously INnoVation was a KeSPA player. INnoVation won 4 titles during the period of KeSPA dominance while on STX Soul and SKT T1. During the same period Life won 5 championships while on Startale which was not a KeSPA team, 1 championship on KT Rolster, and made it to his second Global Finals final on KT Rolster. The same can be said for Taeja. During a slightly shorter period between 2013 and 2014 Taeja won 8 of his 11 titles while on the foreign team Team Liquid.



INnoVation has gone on to win 3 titles after KeSPA dissolved, 1 less than the sum of the rest of his career. In a day and age where many pros have retired, many pros are teamless, and the GOAT’s are gone. It’s hard to see how the era of INnoVation is any harder than the era of Life and Taeja. I’ll give INnoVation this, when there aren’t very many teams paying salaries and fewer tournaments to win INnoVation has done well for himself. The one thing this era does have going for it, in terms of difficulty, is you have to win to survive.



I’ve left head to head matches until the end because there is a relatively small sample size to work with. Mvp and INnoVation only played one match in 2013, towards the end of Mvp’s career. INnoVation took the match 3 to 2 in WCS 2013 Season 1. Life and INnoVation went 7 and 7 in head to head matches which is good, it puts INnoVation on par with a GOAT, at least head to head. Although Life arguably did it during more important moments, like the Global Finals. Whereas INnoVations wins came in places like the round of 16 at IEM. Taeja is a completely different story. In head to head matches Taeja slaughtered INnoVation 9 series to 4.



Overall INnoVation does pretty well when compared to the three best players in Starcraft 2 history. His overall win percentage in competitive matches is better than Life, Taeja, and Mvp. But he doesn’t make it to as many semi finals as his contemporaries, especially Taeja, and he fails to convert those semifinals appearances to championships in the same way that Life and Mvp do. INnoVation’s head to head statistics against Mvp and Life aren’t bad but they aren’t great either, and he got slaughtered by Taeja. If my life (Life lol) is on the line and I have to pick one player to win the tournament I’m certainly not going to trust INnoVation. If it’s summer I’m going to go with Taeja, if it’s WoL I’m going with Mvp, and if I need a stone cold killer I’m going with Life. INnoVation is a great player clearly, perhaps the closest we’ve ever seen to these 3 animals. But that’s the difference. INnoVation’s a machine. Life, Taeja, and Mvp are animals. Life, Taeja, and Mvp are GOAT’s. But INnoVation is still kicking and in the words of Orson Welles “If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story.”





Credit to the great guys at Aligulac and Liquipedia who provided all the tournament information, win rates, and head to head scores used in this piece.



The_Red_Viper Profile Blog Joined August 2013 18783 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-07 20:48:19 #2



One small thing people never seem to understand: People like me say the weekend tournaments were of lesser competitive value because the overall playing field was worse. The counter argument always seems to be: "but player X still had to beat a few 'strong' players". This argument misses the point though and basically only looks at name value.

What's actually important is that there are simply less players in the tournament which could realistically make it to the later stages. When "an upset" happens in GSL it's because the lvl between all the players is extremely close, the favorite simply loses against a lesser player (namewise) when he isn't playing his A game a lot of the time.

So when one argues that "Taeja had to beat Zest here and Innovation there" then that perosn doesn't realize that there is a decent possibility that Zest and Innovation (in this example) maybe wouldn't even have advanced to that stage if every top korean player would be in the tournament. That's the competitive lvl of a tournament, not if the tournament has some strong players in it.

That's why weekend tournaments will always be way below a korean starleague. This is a sc2 thing (compared to bw) because the scene was and still is split. It makes it incredibly hard to compare "premier tournament results" like you do here, in my opinion it's extremely dishonest to simply look at each premier tournament as equal.



Not going to address more right now, have to watch some TI and day9 This probably should be a blog.One small thing people never seem to understand: People like me say the weekend tournaments were of lesser competitive value because the overall playing field was worse. The counter argument always seems to be: "but player X still had to beat a few 'strong' players". This argument misses the point though and basically only looks at name value.What's actually important is that there are simply less players in the tournament which could realistically make it to the later stages. When "an upset" happens in GSL it's because the lvl between all the players is extremely close, the favorite simply loses against a lesser player (namewise) when he isn't playing his A game a lot of the time.So when one argues that "Taeja had to beat Zest here and Innovation there" then that perosn doesn't realize that there is a decent possibility that Zest and Innovation (in this example) maybe wouldn't even have advanced to that stage if every top korean player would be in the tournament. That's the competitive lvl of a tournament, not if the tournament has some strong players in it.That's why weekend tournaments will always be way below a korean starleague. This is a sc2 thing (compared to bw) because the scene was and still is split. It makes it incredibly hard to compare "premier tournament results" like you do here, in my opinion it's extremely dishonest to simply look at each premier tournament as equal.Not going to address more right now, have to watch some TI and day9 BLΛƆKPIИK in your area | IU | SoHyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |

pvsnp Profile Joined January 2017 7613 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-07 21:11:21 #3 Agreed that this should be a blog.



A distinction that is very frequently made that you overlook is that a Starleague (by which I mean a GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL) victory is generally given more worth/value than a weekender victory (IEM, DH, etc).



There are a couple reasons for this. First is that Starleagues are near-exclusively Korean, and almost always include the strongest players at that time. Second is that they are played over a period of several months rather than several days.

In order to claim a Starleague title, a player must therefore maintain top-tier form over a prolonged period of time, prepare extensively for specific opponents that are doing the exact same in return, and stay atop any and all changes to the volatile meta. It is for these reasons that Starleague titles are valued the most highly out of all tournaments, Blizzcon included. A flash in the pan for a couple days is far easier to produce than consistent excellence over a couple months.



Looking strictly at Starleague victories, then, the GOAT contenders have all won multiple Starleagues. Life won 2 (both Code S), Mvp won 3 (all Code S), and INnoVation also won 3 (2 Code S, 1 SSL). At that stage, we can then consider their lesser tournament victories, their periods of dominance, and so forth. But from their Starleague victories we can already see that INnoVation is definitely a contender for the GOAT just as Life and Mvp are.



Just pointing out the significance of Starleagues. Obviously individual judgement places subjective weight on their relative value, but to claim that a Starleague victory is equivalent to any other tournament victory is simply incorrect. Not all championships are created equal. People may quibble over how much more they are worth but I don't think anyone disputes the fact that they are in fact worth more. Denominator of the Universe

Fango Profile Joined July 2016 United Kingdom 7762 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-07 21:36:01 #4 Hmm well if you look at starleagues (Code S/OSL/SSL) there's only a handful of players that have won more than one title



(assuming my memory serves me well) on that list we got



Inno - 3

Zest - 2

Maru - 2

Classic -2

Rain - 2

Life - 2

MVP - 3

NesTea - 2



Now in my biased opinion, the trophies from WoL aren't as high value as from HoTS or LoTV. So I'd put MVP, Life, Rain, and NesTea down a small notch. Inno, Zest, Maru, and Classic are the only guys with multiple starleagues in the most competitive times.



However the existance of weekend tournaments, blizzcons, and proleague do complicate things. Also have to factor in the number of 2nd/ro4 places as well. soO has more finals than anyone else for example (imagine if he'd won all of them, GOAT wouldn't even be a question lol)



Also on the real topic, Inno acheivements>Life's>MVP's. Another starleague or blizzcon win would make it indisputable. Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs

The_Red_Viper Profile Blog Joined August 2013 18783 Posts #5 Fango why do you stop at ro4? I think every result should ultimately matter, i see no reason to drop the other finishes.

Also it's imo not about WOL/Hots/Lotv but about the kespa switch. The switch increased the competitive level and general skill of the whole scene a lot. So Rain's OSL is surely worth a lot as well (though you can argue that the format was a bit weird because it was so close to the switch, that would be valid i guess) BLΛƆKPIИK in your area | IU | SoHyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |

Nakajin Profile Blog Joined September 2014 Canada 6579 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-07 22:23:27 #6 I feel like team league results should be included as well, especially since INno is one of the all team great in those. http://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg

pvsnp Profile Joined January 2017 7613 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-07 23:09:34 #7 On August 08 2017 07:20 Nakajin wrote:

I feel like team league results should be included as well, especially since INno is one of the all team great in those.

What are you talking about? Everyone knows that Taeja's single IPLTAC run is fifty times more impressive than INnoVation's eight teamleague trophies and his twelve all-kills and his hard-carry of STX SouL put together.



Obviously.





To preempt beating the dead horse yet again:



Taeja was an incredible player and one of my favorite Terrans to ever touch the game, but there's no better example of TL bias than him. Claiming him as one of the greatest players is at least somewhat reasonable because he actually was an amazing player who won tons of weekend tournaments. (And personally, it's a real shame that TL pushes the Taeja narrative so hard because it seems to have tainted his actual accomplishments, which were legitimately awesome, such that every time he is brought up in this context people can and do just take the easy path of hating on TL instead of recognizing him as the great player he actually was).



But I digress. Claiming Taeja is greater than Inno in teamleagues is fucking laughable. He had one incredible, awe-inspiring run. That's it. Once and never again. And there's simply no way that even that miraculous single run can compare with any level of objectivity to years of teamleague excellence, the most teamleague trophies, and the most all-kills.



It's the equivalent of calling Dream the undisputed greatest player because of that one miraculous engagement he took against Life. One lone miracle does not a GOAT make. What are you talking about? Everyone knows that Taeja's single IPLTAC run is fifty times more impressive than INnoVation's eight teamleague trophies and his twelve all-kills and his hard-carry of STX SouL put together.Obviously.To preempt beating the dead horse yet again:Taeja was an incredible player and one of my favorite Terrans to ever touch the game, but there's no better example of TL bias than him. Claiming him as one of the greatest players is at least somewhat reasonable because he actually was an amazing player who won tons of weekend tournaments. (And personally, it's a real shame that TL pushes the Taeja narrative so hard because it seems to have tainted his actual accomplishments, which were legitimately awesome, such that every time he is brought up in this context people can and do just take the easy path of hating on TL instead of recognizing him as the great player he actually was).But I digress. Claiming Taeja is greater than Inno in teamleagues is fucking laughable. He had one incredible, awe-inspiring run. That's it. Once and never again. And there's simply no way that even that miraculous single run can compare with any level of objectivity to years of teamleague excellence, the most teamleague trophies, and the most all-kills.It's the equivalent of calling Dream the undisputed greatest player because of that one miraculous engagement he took against Life. One lone miracle does not a GOAT make. Denominator of the Universe

Mun_Su Profile Joined December 2012 France 2063 Posts #8 On August 08 2017 07:20 Nakajin wrote:

I feel like team league results should be included as well, especially since INno is one of the all team great in those.



I 100% agree I 100% agree INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK

opisska Profile Blog Joined February 2011 Poland 8848 Posts #9 Yeah, all these data can be massaged to get any conclusions you want. However I have been saying for a while that I now consider Innovation to be the greatest player in SC2 history, which is a sort of a self-reinforcing statement, because the fact that it comes from a reknown Inno-hater makes the case stronger. I always encourage people to be honest with themselves and try to think who is the player they would think about first if someone ask them to put a face on SC2 and Innovation is a clear an obvious answer for a lot of people. "Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk

Phredxor Profile Joined May 2013 New Zealand 15049 Posts #10 Zest is best rolls off the tounge better. So i vote for him.

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13352 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-07 23:25:01 #11 You rate foreign tournaments way to high, a few HSC or DH wins don't compare at all to korean titles.

Just looking at korean tournaments Inno is undisputably the most accomplished player with 3 Starleagues and 2 special events won (Mvp: 3 starleagues and 1 special event, Life: 2 starleagues and 1 special event, Zest: 2 starleagues and 2 special events).

If you add weekend tournaments to that Mvp and Life could be argued to be on the same level as INnoVation since they have won more abroad - but only if you completely dismiss teamleague results which would be stupid because koreans took proleague more seriously than any other tournament.



So unless you can convince me that foreign tournaments should be counted but teamleague results not, Inno is for me the undisputed GOAT now. INnoVation

evolsiefil Profile Joined October 2015 143 Posts #12 the only reason he MIGHT ever surpass life as goat is because life doesnt play anymore to crush him. oh life

EmNGiantNome Profile Blog Joined October 2012 United States 125 Posts #13 @Fango and @ Charoisaur I wrote a breakdown of the tournament victories that Life and INnoVation both had from the period of 2013 to 2015 and Life consistently beat better players than INnoVation did to win his tournaments, even if not every win was a GSL. Ill copy it down below. In terms of team league results I intentionally ignored Pro League because it's bo1 and it wasn't as big a deal in SC2 as GSL/SSL/Blizzcon etc.



2013:



Life: On his way to 3 tournament championships Life beat Seed, Creator, Leenock, Goswser, MKP, DRG, Zest (2), HerO, Curious, Naniwa, Minigun, Polt, Last, MC, and Flash. Only losing 1 series to Hyun.



INnoVation: On his way to 1 tournament championship beat Revival, RorO, Alive, INnoVation, and sOs.



In 2013 Life beat 3 of the players who made it to the ro16 in the Global Finals. INnoVation beat 2. Life also won 3 titles this year, INnoVation only won 1. Not bad, but Life clearly takes this year.



2014:



Life: On his way to 2 tournament championships beat Leenock, Stardust, INnoVation, and Impact. Then at the global finals he beat Zest, San, Taeja (who just 3-1d INnoVation), and MMA.

INnoVation: on his way to 1 tournament championship beat Paralyze, Myungsik, Stats, Parting, DRG, Cure, and soO. He also lost to Myungsik once.



In 2014 Life won 1 more tournament, beat 6 of the top 16 players including INnoVation, won the world championship, and came into the global finals with 25 more points than INnoVation and they both came from the KR region. INnoVation beat 2 of the 16 best players on his way to his single title of the year and lost to Life. Clearly Life was better in 2014.



2015:



Life: On his way to 2 championships he beat Gumiho (2), Yoda, Soulkey (2), INnoVation, herO, Parting (2), ForGG, Hyun, and Maru. Losing once to Rain.



INnoVation: On his way to 2 championships defeated Ret, Lilbow, ForGG, MMA, soO, Flash (2), Curious, Gumiho, Zest, Maru, and Byul. He lost once to Fantasy.



In 2015 Life beat 4 of the top 16 players on his way to 2 championships including the rank 1 herO, the rank 2 Maru, the rank 3 Parting twice, and the rank 5 INnoVation once. He was only defeated by the rank 6 Rain. In 2015 INnoVation beat 4 of the top 16 players including the rank 2 Maru, the rank 8 Byul, the rank 12 Zest, and the rank 13 Lilbow. INnoVation was only defeated by Fantasy who tied with Hyun for 16th place.



2015: They both won 2 championships. Life beat Rank 1, Rank 2, Rank 3 twice, and rank 5 (INnoVation). Life was defeated once by rank 6 (Rain). INnoVation beat Rank 2, Rank 8, Rank 12, and Rank 13 (Lilbow). INnoVation was defeated by rank 16 (Fantasy). So Lifes 2 victories this year were easily better than INnoVations 2 victories, especially because one of Life's victories included a win over INnoVation. But in case that isn't enough to break the 2015 tie Life also beat another 3 top 16 players on his way to the 2015 global finals. He beat Lilbow, INnoVation, and Classic before ultimately losing to sOs 4-3 in the finals. So pretty clearly Life outperformed INnoVation in 2015 as well.



The most you could say is that INnoVation outperformed Life in 2016 and 2017 where he was banned for matchfixing. Maybe his IEM Gyeonggi win+his SSL win+his GSL vs The World win are worth more than Lifes 2012 GSL win over Mvp, or his MLG win over Leenock, or his Blizzard Cup win over Parting (none of which were included above because they took place in 2012). But even if INnoVations 2016/2017 performances outweigh Lifes 2012 performances all INnoVation is doing is playing catch up for the fact that Life outperformed INnoVation in 2013, 2014, and 2015.

Edit: in 2015 Life also came into the global finals with 150 more points than INnoVation.

The_Red_Viper Profile Blog Joined August 2013 18783 Posts #14 Why do people only ever look at first places? Makes no sense by any means.

You are also dishonest with simply stating "premier/championship wins" again with no context there.

It's also funny that you value the wcs standing so highly for comparing tournament runs (which in itself is a flaw, just because placed high/low on that list doesn't mean that he was strong/weak at that specific tournament) but don't mention that Life for example was place 31 with 1925 points while Innovation was 2nd with 6100 points in the year 2013.

But yeah that year "clearly goes to life".

You know why life was that low? Because his korean starleague results were garbage while Inno's were fairly good BLΛƆKPIИK in your area | IU | SoHyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |

Zest_is_best Profile Joined October 2016 France 15 Posts #15 @EmNGiantNome I feel like you're so biaised haha !

Also you can't really say "poor Life, if only he was not banned, he would outperform INno etc." because it's 100% his fault, not like it was a tragic injury. soO & INnoVation for life, jjakji, Dark, aLive and Classic as well - RIP skt :*

Erasme Profile Blog Joined February 2011 Bahamas 5987 Posts #16 people calling broodlord/infestor the most imbalanced part of WoL either have a poor memory, or werent there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI

curufinwe_wins Profile Joined August 2017 68 Posts Last Edited: 2017-08-08 01:35:20 #17 So... lets all be really realistic here...



Inno is by far the best player of the current era... Which makes him by far the Greatest of All Time... (Only Life has played fairly comparable level of mechanic mastery as the current players, and even then... "close but no cigar imho")



Now if you want to talk about the "Greatest of All Time Relative to Their Competition".... Goat RotC... Then this whole debate can happen...



I mean this in seriousness... Go back to MVP v Squirtle for example... Take any of the top 10-20 players in the world right now, give them a week to learn the meta of that old patch, and their mechanics would rofl-stomp MVP.



It is actually really sad, kinda pathetic... to go back to those old games and see how much less is being done... how many more mistakes are being made... Way better than I will ever be ofc... but still.



Gods among men of that time... but man has moved forward soooo much since that time (the recent SC:R show matches really highlighted this disparity btw).

lichter Profile Blog Joined September 2010 1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL 22233 Posts #18 Greatness is not only measured by titles and winrates, but the story behind the achievements. "Best of All Time" and "Greatest of All Time" can be two very different things. For example, Life can be in the discussion for Best, but not Greatest, because of his story. Administrator YOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS

LtCalley Profile Joined March 2011 United States 244 Posts #19 give it another year....inno will be the GOAT, and Neeb will be GFOAT "No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you" - Homer Simpson

AzAlexZ Profile Joined September 2016 China 2178 Posts #20 On August 08 2017 11:30 LtCalley wrote:

give it another year....inno will be the GOAT, and Neeb will be GFOAT

Neeb is already GFOAT

As long as no other foreigner wins back-to-back WCS's and a Tournament on Korean soil, then Neeb is the undisputed GFOAT Neeb is already GFOATAs long as no other foreigner wins back-to-back WCS's and a Tournament on Korean soil, then Neeb is the undisputed GFOAT Faker is a god! SKT Best KT

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