Pro

RULES:

round one acceptance only

you can use any kind of argument (even troll!) but you cannot use any mathematical arguments

breakage of any rules results in full 7-point forfeit.



This debate is impossible to accept because I have school work to do. I will make this available in summer. Report this Argument I believe without mathematical arguments, you cannot prove 0.9999.... equals one. In fact I will disprove this famous mathematical fact using arguments that aren't mathematical.RULES:round one acceptance onlyyou can use any kind of argument (even troll!) but you cannot use any mathematical argumentsbreakage of any rules results in full 7-point forfeit.This debate is impossible to accept because I have school work to do. I will make this available in summer. Con Report this Argument I accept this debate, and I intend to show that 0.9999.... does equal one.

Pro

Ah well. I will type this as fast as I can.



1. The look completely different, thus, they aren't identical, and identical means equal, and because such, 0.999.... does not equal to one.

Seriously, look at them. They're completely different!











2. The Kalam Cosmological Argument

Source:

The KCA says this:

" The basic argument [ edit ] Whatever begins to exist, has a cause of its existence (i.e. something has caused it to start existing). The universe began to exist. i.e., the temporal regress of events is finite. Therefore, the universe has a cause. Darn! This debate was supposed to be impossible to accept.Ah well. I will type this as fast as I can.Seriously, look at them. They're completely different!Source: http://en.wikipedia.org... The KCA says this: Following Al-Ghāzāli, Craig argues that this cause must be a personal will.[5] The first sub-set of arguments [ edit ] Argument based on the impossibility of an actual infinite: An actual infinite cannot exist. An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite. Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist. The second sub-set of arguments [ edit ] Argument based on the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition: A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite. The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition. Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite." Because of this, 0.999... cannot actually go on forever. Thus, there is a llimited amount of 9's, and the limited amount of 9's can never make it so close to one that 0.000....1 equals to zero.



3. Because I'm happy

Pharrell William's "Happy" song's lyrics state "I'm a hot air balloon, I could go to space". However, had he been a 0.999.... hot air balloon, there is no way he could make it to space, and he wouldn't be happy, contradicting his lyrics and making a horrible song.



Onto you, con!

(And remember, no mathematical arguments!) Report this Argument Con For your first argument, you claim:



"The[y] look completely different, thus, they aren't identical, and identical means equal, and because such, 0.999.... does not equal to one. Seriously, look at them. They're completely different!"







click="document.location='/GaryBacon/photos/album/3762/24391/'" src="../../../photos/albums/1/4/3762/3161-3762-cmqps-a.jpg" alt="" />

But appearances are not enough to state that two things are not the same. This is a dog:click="document.location='/GaryBacon/photos/album/3762/24391/'" src="../../../photos/albums/1/4/3762/3161-3762-cmqps-a.jpg" alt="" />





click="document.location='/GaryBacon/photos/album/3762/24390/'" src="../../../photos/albums/1/4/3762/3161-3762-mmpfr-a.jpg" alt="" />

But this is also a dog:click="document.location='/GaryBacon/photos/album/3762/24390/'" src="../../../photos/albums/1/4/3762/3161-3762-mmpfr-a.jpg" alt="" />

The two look completely different, yet both are considered dogs. A difference in appearance is not sufficient to claim that two things are different.







The Kalam Cosmological Argument



First, I must commend you on your creativity. Using an ontological argument for this debate is certainly thinking outside the box. Nevertheless, this argument which was designed to show the existence of a God has been viewed as invalid by many in the philosophical community.





The argument itself argues against infinites, and then establishes God as necessary for the existence of the universe. Yet, by definition, God is an infinite. This argument refutes itself.





But since this debate is not of an ontological nature, there are further points to the argument that must be addressed.





The argument against infinites



Craig's main argument here uses an analogy of a library with an infinite amount of books. However, this analogy cannot be applied to all infinites. The following two links show the problems with the Kalam Cosmological Argument.



http://cbl2988.hubpages.com...



http://stripe.colorado.edu...



In addition to showing the problems with the Kalam Cosmological Argument, we can actually see that contrary to Craig's views, infinites do exist. The universe itself is, in fact, an infinite and the universe does exist.



http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov...



Lyrics to Pharrell Williams' "Happy"



The lyrics to the song may state "I'm a hot air balloon, I could go to space" but this doesn't mean that these lyrics are true. First off, I think that it is fairly obvious that Pharrell Williams is NOT a hot air balloon.



Furthermore, even if he were a talking, singing, hot air balloon, he would not be able to go to space because a hot air balloon cannot rise fast enough to exceed the escape velocity needed.



http://en.wikipedia.org...



So while I agree that a 0.999.... hot air balloon would never make it to space (which is simply another way of saying a hot air balloon), it is because I am familiar with physics and not because I believe there is any difference between a hot air balloon and a 0.999.... hot air balloon.





My argument



Now that the rebuttals have been handled, I will show why 0.999.... and 1 are, in fact, the same.





When two things are different, we are always able to show what the difference is between the two. Two things are said to be the same when there is no difference between the two. When looking for a difference between 0.999.... and 1, there is no difference.



Because infinites do exist, 0.999... can go on forever, and so anyone that tries to show me the difference would show me 0.000... going on forever. Therefore 0.999.... and 1 are the same since there is no difference between the two. And when two things cannot be shown to have any difference, the conclusion is that they are equal.

First, I must commend you on your creativity. Using an ontological argument for this debate is certainly thinking outside the box. Nevertheless, this argument which was designed to show the existence of a God has been viewed as invalid by many in the philosophical community.The argument itself argues against infinites, and then establishes God as necessary for the existence of the universe. Yet, by definition, God is an infinite. This argument refutes itself.But since this debate is not of an ontological nature, there are further points to the argument that must be addressed.Craig's main argument here uses an analogy of a library with an infinite amount of books. However, this analogy cannot be applied to all infinites. The following two links show the problems with the Kalam Cosmological Argument.In addition to showing the problems with the Kalam Cosmological Argument, we can actually see that contrary to Craig's views, infinites do exist. The universe itself is, in fact, an infinite and the universe does exist.The lyrics to the song may state "I'm a hot air balloon, I could go to space" but this doesn't mean that these lyrics are true. First off, I think that it is fairly obvious that Pharrell Williams is NOT a hot air balloon.Furthermore, even if he were a talking, singing, hot air balloon, he would not be able to go to space because a hot air balloon cannot rise fast enough to exceed the escape velocity needed.So while I agree that a 0.999.... hot air balloon would never make it to space (which is simply another way of saying a hot air balloon), it is because I am familiar with physics and not because I believe there is any difference between a hot air balloon and a 0.999.... hot air balloon.Now that the rebuttals have been handled, I will show why 0.999.... and 1 are, in fact, the same.When two things are different, we are always able to show what the difference is between the two. Two things are said to be the same when there is no difference between the two. When looking for a difference between 0.999.... and 1, there is no difference.Because infinitesexist, 0.999... can go on forever, and so anyone that tries to show me the difference would show me 0.000... going on forever. Therefore 0.999.... and 1 are the same since there is no difference between the two. And when two things cannot be shown to have any difference, the conclusion is that they are equal. Report this Argument

Pro

REBUTTALS

1. The dogs which look the same

They're both dogs, but not the same kind of dogs!

0.999... and 1 are both numbers, but not the same kind of numbers.

Thus the argument is refuted.



2. The KCA

Your sources try to prove that actual infinites are completely possible. It is true that the creator of the argument couldn't prove an infinite doesn't exist. On the other hand, I am a genius, and I can prove the KCA. So, it would take forever to write down "0.999.....". You'd get closer and closer every time you write a "9", but you never reach the full 0.999.... that equates to one. This infinite cannot possibly exist because you cannot write down all the "9"'s, or even have a computer display all the "9"'s, and you will never reach the number that equals to one.



3. The Hot Air Balloon cannot make it to space

You are wrong, my friend. Pharrell is so happy he creates a magical rainbow that boosts him up into space. See the picture below if you don't believe my claims.





See? This teeny tiny rainbow can support a unicorn plus leprechaun nearly 15 times its size. Obviously full rainbows can support much, much more, and Pharrel the Hot Air Balloon can defy the laws of physics, making it to space.



Now, I still have tons and tons of characters left, so here I will introduce a new argument and hope it is sufficient to disprove 0.999.... equals one.



4. Rage Man



So, how is this relevant to my argument? Well, you see, let me code the numbers below and you will see.

F=0, U=9. Let us assume there is a random period in between a "F" and an "U" in the above picture.

Since 00000000000000000=0, the above post states a man yelling "0.9999....".

Now, what is one? Well, it can't possibly be F, or U. And since the coding seems random, I will assign it a random value: E. "E", although is the most commonly used letter in the English language, does not appear in "FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-". Thus, one cannot equal to 0.9999.....

If one does equal to 0.999...., which is impossible, then we are assigning a number, not a letter, but an incomplete word. If we assign every letter a different letter, one cannot possibly equal to "FFFFFFUUUUU", since that is WAY over one letter.

What if we assign the letter "F" or "U", you may ask? Okay, first let us assume "1" is assigned "F". So now, the guy raging could be shouting "0.9999..." or shouting "1111111111.99999...". Obviously this is not equal. Now, let us assume "1" is assigned "U". So now, the guy is either shouting "0.99999...." or "0.111111....". These are not equal either.

Thus I have refuted my opponent's arguments and proved that 0.999.... does not equal to 1. *claps hands* Well played, well played!They're both dogs, but not the same kind of dogs!0.999... and 1 are both numbers, but not the same kind of numbers.Thus the argument is refuted.Your sources try to prove that actual infinites are completely possible. It is true that the creator of the argument couldn't prove an infinite doesn't exist. On the other hand, I am a genius, and I can prove the KCA. So, it would take forever to write down "0.999.....". You'd get closer and closer every time you write a "9", but you never reach the full 0.999.... that equates to one. This infinite cannot possibly exist because you cannot write down all the "9"'s, or even have a computer display all the "9"'s, and you will never reach the number that equals to one.You are wrong, my friend. Pharrell is so happy he creates a magical rainbow that boosts him up into space. See the picture below if you don't believe my claims.See? This teeny tiny rainbow can support a unicorn plus leprechaun nearly 15 times its size. Obviously full rainbows can support much, much more, and Pharrel the Hot Air Balloon can defy the laws of physics, making it to space.Now, I still have tons and tons of characters left, so here I will introduce a new argument and hope it is sufficient to disprove 0.999.... equals one.So, how is this relevant to my argument? Well, you see, let me code the numbers below and you will see.F=0, U=9. Let us assume there is a random period in between a "F" and an "U" in the above picture.Since 00000000000000000=0, the above post states a man yelling "0.9999....".Now, what is one? Well, it can't possibly be F, or U. And since the coding seems random, I will assign it a random value: E. "E", although is the most commonly used letter in the English language, does not appear in "FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-". Thus, one cannot equal to 0.9999.....If one does equal to 0.999...., which is impossible, then we are assigning a number, not a letter, but an incomplete word. If we assign every letter a different letter, one cannot possibly equal to "FFFFFFUUUUU", since that is WAY over one letter.What if we assign the letter "F" or "U", you may ask? Okay, first let us assume "1" is assigned "F". So now, the guy raging could be shouting "0.9999..." or shouting "1111111111.99999...". Obviously this is not equal. Now, let us assume "1" is assigned "U". So now, the guy is either shouting "0.99999...." or "0.111111....". These are not equal either.Thus I have refuted my opponent's arguments and proved that 0.999.... does not equal to 1. Report this Argument Con 1. Things that look different are not necessarily unequal To show that two things can look different and yet be equal, I chose to use dogs in order to minimize any use of numbers to avoid any accusations of a mathematical argument. However, I acknowledge your point that they are two separate breeds of dog, and therefore not completely equal.

Therefore, I will use another analogy to show that two things CAN be equal while looking completely different. This is obvious to anyone that has any familiarity with Roman numerals. Roman numerals are represented by letters of the Phoenician alphabet, and look completely different from the Arabic numerals that we use today. If one were to write any number larger than one in Roman numerals and then in Arabic numerals, the result will be two completely equal numbers that look different from one another. I believe this example shows that the argument of 0.999.... and 1 looking different shows nothing, as we can find many equal values that look different and yet remain equal. The KCA No person can ever write out 0.999.... and no computer can ever display this number. On this point, I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I disagree with your conclusion. The fact that no person, machine, or anything else could ever possibly fully write out 0.999... does not mean that infinites do not exist. In fact, the very point you make actually shows that infinites do exist. If a person, machine, or anything else were ever able to write out all of 0.999... then, no matter how large it is, it would be finite by definition. The fact that this feat cannot be accomplished shows that infinites do exist. In addition, I have used a real life example to show the existence of infinites. The universe is infinite! No person, machine, or anything else could ever possibly explore ALL of the universe. It is impossible. But just because this feat is impossible, it does not mean that the universe does not exist. It is obvious that the universe does exist. The universe is also an infinite. Therefore, infinites DO exist. Pharell's Hot Air Balloon Regardless of the song lyrics or rainbows, the hot air balloon does not make it to space. Pharell is most likely on LSD if he thinks a magical rainbow will support his weight (a rainbow is a simple dispersion phenomenon and not a tangible object). But even if his hot air balloon did make it into space, a 0.999.... hot air balloon in such a case would also make it to space. They are one and the same. The song lyrics do nothing to refute the equality of 1 and 0.999... The Rage Man In this example, the man is shouting "FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-". From here, you assign values to the letters (and place a decimal point between the final F and the first U). But the argument that was created from this holds no water. The fact that he is not shouting "1" in this example, but "0.999...." does not show that the two values are unequal. In fact, it seems that you have merely taken your very first argument (i.e. they look different therefore they are different) and converted it from a visual standpoint to an auditory one. In essence, the Rage Man example simply claims that since the two sound different they are not equal. But this argument contains the same flaw as the visual example. If an American screams out "Eighty eight!" and a Japanese man screams out "Hachi ju hachi!" the two sounds produced will be completely different. Yet the value of what is screamed by each remains the same. So the fact that this man screaming "0.999...." in code is not screaming "1" instead does not show that the two are unequal. Just as two values can look different yet remain equal, two values can also sound different and remain equal. The remaining arguments of 1111111.9999999.... and 00000.9999999.... not being equal is obvious. These are not the values we were debating as equal (nor is 000.1111...) and so this section I will justifiably ignore. My argument To reiterate, any two things that are unequal must be different in some way. Yet when looking at the difference between 0.999... and 1, we have no difference in value. As pointed out by you, we do have differences in visual appearance and in the way they sound when spoken (or shouted). But the difference in value, if one were asked to show it, is simply 0.00000.... If there is no difference shown between these two numbers, they are of equal value. Therefore, 0.999.... does, in fact, equal 1. Report this Argument