Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6902 Patch is smaller than I expected, not sure why it isn't a 7.01-7.02a/b/c https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6903 Jesus, I've made a terrible mistake in taking on this transition https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Buckyman Profile Joined May 2014 1362 Posts #6904 With the continued HotD nerfs I think it's time to reverse some of the HotD-core-on-all-cores trend. Namely:



Dragon Knight - Shouldn't be buying it for the stacking anymore, even situationally.



Drow Ranger - needs some sort of HP sustain but would rather have something cheaper like a morbid mask.



Faceless Void - situational HotD is completely unexplained. I suppose someone with excellent micro could use dominated units in conjunction with chonosphere, but most of your users can't.





Phantom Assassin - HotD should be re-described as a situational item; It's not clear when it would replace Vanguard and it DEFINITELY shouldn't replace any other core item. Lifesteal mention should be replaced by HP regen.



Phantom Lancer - I don't know what HotD is supposed to be doing for him apart from personal regen. An elusive Lancer played by a pub player will have trouble getting their creep to keep up with the hero.



Sven - I strongly disagree with rushing HotD before upgrading boots, even with stacking. It seems like it would delay his important blink timing too much.



Viper - Not that HotD is bad, but it seems like Mek does almost all of what you'd want HotD to do unless your micro is really good.









And some exceptions:

Gyrocopter - maybe worthwhile? But not for pure stacking as the description implies.



Juggernaut, Luna - Getting it for pushing seems fine, even if the healing aura is redundant with healing ward on Jugg.



Lycan - Fits in well with his split push build. It's questionable with echo saber, but I'd cut the saber sooner than the helm.



Troll - I was mildly surprised to not see it, as he appreciates the extra control a net/purge/stomp/clap would give him and his ultimate makes the creep more of a threat early.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6905 On March 17 2017 08:33 Buckyman wrote:

With the continued HotD nerfs I think it's time to reverse some of the HotD-core-on-all-cores trend. Namely:



Dragon Knight - Shouldn't be buying it for the stacking anymore, even situationally.



Drow Ranger - needs some sort of HP sustain but would rather have something cheaper like a morbid mask.



Faceless Void - situational HotD is completely unexplained. I suppose someone with excellent micro could use dominated units in conjunction with chonosphere, but most of your users can't.





Phantom Assassin - HotD should be re-described as a situational item; It's not clear when it would replace Vanguard and it DEFINITELY shouldn't replace any other core item. Lifesteal mention should be replaced by HP regen.



Phantom Lancer - I don't know what HotD is supposed to be doing for him apart from personal regen. An elusive Lancer played by a pub player will have trouble getting their creep to keep up with the hero.



Sven - I strongly disagree with rushing HotD before upgrading boots, even with stacking. It seems like it would delay his important blink timing too much.



Viper - Not that HotD is bad, but it seems like Mek does almost all of what you'd want HotD to do unless your micro is really good.









And some exceptions:

Gyrocopter - maybe worthwhile? But not for pure stacking as the description implies.



Juggernaut, Luna - Getting it for pushing seems fine, even if the healing aura is redundant with healing ward on Jugg.



Lycan - Fits in well with his split push build. It's questionable with echo saber, but I'd cut the saber sooner than the helm.



Troll - I was mildly surprised to not see it, as he appreciates the extra control a net/purge/stomp/clap would give him and his ultimate makes the creep more of a threat early.



doesn't have it in his build except as situational if I recall.



Let's wait on Drow Ranger, but I agree



Will take a look at the next run. If a player can't do it, that's not something a guide accounts for.



I'll fix



lets wait on this one



data says otherwise, I gotta double-check if it has changed recently, but I recall it being justified



it's just a different, more aggressive build - let's wait on this one



yep



urp



I cut the Helm instead



I'll tkae a look.

doesn't have it in his build except as situational if I recall.Let's wait on Drow Ranger, but I agreeWill take a look at the next run. If a player can't do it, that's not something a guide accounts for.I'll fixlets wait on this onedata says otherwise, I gotta double-check if it has changed recently, but I recall it being justifiedit's just a different, more aggressive build - let's wait on this oneyepurpI cut the Helm insteadI'll tkae a look. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6906 On February 22 2017 20:11 bdonballer wrote:

New Guides: My Two Cents

Abbadon (Support) Yes

Batrider (Jungle) Yes, could be roam/jungle. zfreek played a lot of the position 4 batrider in elimination mode

Chaos Knight (Offlane or Support) No, really don't think he is that viable as either. Reliant on levels and farm.

Enchantress (Offlane) Yes

Enigma (Offlane) Yes, been seeing a lot of action in high level games. Bulba and zai

Morphling (Support or Offlane) Yes, support though. Strength stun with atos/euls is a really long lockdown. Think its viable

Mirana (Support or Roam) Roaming position 4 mirana is good, start with courier wards and lots of clarities. run around lanes and jungle

Natures Prophet (Offlane) No

Necrophos (Offlane or Support) Yes, really good with early push strats with arcane boots and mek. I would prefer an offlane guide to a support one though.

Omniknight (Core or Offlane) No

Treant Protector (Offlane or Jungle) Yes, dual offlaner. start in lane with orb of venom and natures guise. bully lane and fall back to jungle with iron talon. aghs is a must

Vengeful Spirit (Core) Yes, seen in a lot of pro games. Definitely a good hero early to mid game as carry



Old Guides to be Removed

I agree with removing all of them, but Tiny (mid) and Warlock (core). I think those are the only ones that are viable.





Was thinking similar except I want Omni Core because it looks fun

Was thinking similar except I want Omni Core because it looks fun https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-21 20:42:11 #6907 ed https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6908 So how many people actually thought I wouldn't go through with the transition? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-19 15:42:40 #6909 Potential New Guides (Part 3) subject to change

Abaddon (Support)

Enchantress (Offlane)

Engima (Offlane)

Morphling (Support) - Offlane

Mirana (Support) - Roaming

Nature's Prophet (Offlane)

Necrophos (Core)

Omniknight (Core) - Offlane

Treant Protector (Offlane)

Vengeful Spirit (Core) - Safe Lane

Venomancer (Jungle)



Guides Removed (Part 3)

Ancient Apparition (Core)

Arc Warden (Core/Middle)

Bloodseeker (Offlane)

Dragon Knight (Core/Safe)

Elder Titan (Support)

Oracle (Core)

Shadow Shaman (Core)

Slark (Core/Mid)

Sniper (Core/Safe)

Troll Warlord (Offlane)

Underlord (Support)



Reddit Thread https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6910 On March 17 2017 17:55 Torte de Lini wrote:

So how many people actually thought I wouldn't go through with the transition?



On the one hand, I wondered why even bothering if there's no competition and no reason to create additional work.

On the other, I hate imperfections and feeling like I have an incomplete collection. On the one hand, I wondered why even bothering if there's no competition and no reason to create additional work.On the other, I hate imperfections and feeling like I have an incomplete collection. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Buckyman Profile Joined May 2014 1362 Posts #6911 While you're adding guides, consider either making a Nature's Prophet (Lane) guide or modifying the existing guide with different starting items for a lane start.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-17 19:29:31 #6912 On March 18 2017 03:36 Buckyman wrote:

While you're adding guides, consider either making a Nature's Prophet (Lane) guide or modifying the existing guide with different starting items for a lane start.



It's definitely in the list haha It's definitely in the list haha https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-22 00:12:35 #6913 Leshrac (Core)

New Skill Build: Q W W Q W R W Q Q T E E E E T R R T T (1. Diabolic Edict 2. Split Earth 3. Lightning Storm)



Leshrac (Support)

New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q W Q R W T E R E E T E T T (1. Split Earth 2. Diabolic Edict 3. Lightning Storm)

New Talent Tree: 10 (+125 Health), 15 (+400 Mana), 20 (+15 Strength), 25 (+50 Diabolic Edict Explosions)



Faceless Void

New Talent Tree: 10 (+15 Attack Speed), 15 (+25 Damage), 20 (+120 Gold/Min), 25 (+20% Evasion)

Added Iron Talon to Situational Items

Removed Helm of the Dominator



Phantom Lancer

New Talent Tree: 10 (+20 Attack Speed), 15 (+8 All Stats), 20 (15% Evasion), 25 (+20 Strength)

Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items

Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items

Moved Manta Style to Extension Items

Removed Helm of the Dominator

Removed Clarity



Troll Warlord

Added Shadow Blade to Core Items

Moved Ring of Aquila to Early Game

Removed Morbid Mask



Viper

Added Yasha to Core Items (Mid - Aggro)

Added Dragon Lance to Core Items (Mid - Aggro)

Removed Helm of the Dominator



Drow Ranger

Moved Hurricane Pike to Core Items

Removed Helm of the Dominator



Abaddon

Created New Tab: "Utility Items"

Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"



Centaur Warrunner

Created New Tab: "Utility Items"

Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"



Pudge

Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items



Invoker (Quas/Exort)

New Skill Build: E W E Q E Q E Q E Q E W E T T W W W T T



Viper

Added Solar Crest to Situational Items



Enchantress

New Talent Tree: 10 (+6 All Stats), 15 (+50 Damage), 20 (+60 Untouchable Slow), 25 (Enchant Affects Ancients)

Added Phase Boots to Core Items

Added Drum of Endurance to Core Items

Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items

Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items

Removed Power Treads

Removed Helm of the Dominator

Removed Rod of Atos



Juggernaut

Created New Tab: "Starting Items (Middle)"

Added Poor Man's Shield to "Starting Items (Middle)"

Added Iron Branch x2 to "Starting Items (Middle)"

Added Bottle to Situational Items

Moved Phase Boots to Core Items (Safe Lane)

Moved Ring of Aquila to Early Game

Removed Helm of the Dominator



Earth Spirit (Support)

Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items

Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items



Weaver (Core)

Created New Tab: "Starting Items (Middle)"

Created New Tab: "Early Game (Middle)"

Added Wraith Band to "Starting Items (Middle)"

Added Faerie Fire to "Starting Items (Middle)"

Added Iron Branch to "Starting Items (Middle)"

Added Ring of Aquila to "Early Game (Middle)"

Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game (Middle)"

Added Blight Stone to "Early Game (Middle)"

Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items

Added Mjollnir to Extension Items

Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items

Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items

Moved Bottle to "Early Game (Middle)"

Moved Linken's Sphere to Core Items

Removed Healing Salve

Removed Daedalus

Removed Monkey King Bar



Renamed Support

Weaver (Offlane)

New Talent Tree: 10 (+6 Strength), 15 (+7 All Stats), 20 (+15 Agility), 25 (+200 Shukuchi Movement Speed)

Added Blight Stone to Starting Items

Added Medallion of Courage to Early Game

Added Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items

Added Solar Crest to Core Items

Added Bottle to Situational Items

Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items

Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items

Added Lotus Orb to Extension Items

Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items

Moved Power Treads to Early Game

Moved Magic Wand to Early Game

Moved Desolator to Extension Items

Moved Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension Items

Moved Linken's Sphere to Extension Items

Removed Healing Salve

Removed Observer Ward

Removed Boots of Speed

Removed Dragon Lance

Removed Black King Bar

Removed Butterfly

Removed Eye of Skadi

Removed Daedalus



Renamed Support

Monkey King (Offlane)

New Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E T E R W W T W R T T (1. Boundless Strike 2. Jingu Mastery 3. Tree Dance)

New Talent Tree: 10 (+20 Attack Speed), 15 (+75 Jingu Mastery Damage), 20 (+40 Damage), 25 (+100% Boundless Strike Crit)

Added Skull Basher to Core Items

Moved Desolator to Extension Items

Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items

Removed Poor Man's Shield

Removed Boots of Speed

Removed Shadow Blade

Removed Butterfly

Removed Assault Cuirass



Renamed Core/Carry

Gyrocopter (Core/Safe)

Created New Tab: "Core Items (Aghanim's)"

Added Phase Boots to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"

Added Ring of Aquila to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"

Added Maelstrom to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"

Added Aghanim's Scepter to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"

Added Black King Bar to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"

Added Mjolnnir to Extension Items

Moved Black King Bar to Core Items

Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items

Moved Manta Style to Extension Items



Renamed Core/Ganker

Gyrocopter (Core/Mid)

New Talent Tree: 10 (+6% Spell Amplification), 15 (+30 Damage), 20 (20% Cooldown Reduction), 25 (3 Homing Missile Charges)



Retired

Earth Spirit (Core) New Skill Build: Q W W Q W R W Q Q T E E E E T R R T T (1. Diabolic Edict 2. Split Earth 3. Lightning Storm)New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q W Q R W T E R E E T E T T (1. Split Earth 2. Diabolic Edict 3. Lightning Storm)New Talent Tree: 10 (+125 Health), 15 (+400 Mana), 20 (+15 Strength), 25 (+50 Diabolic Edict Explosions)New Talent Tree: 10 (+15 Attack Speed), 15 (+25 Damage), 20 (+120 Gold/Min), 25 (+20% Evasion)Added Iron Talon to Situational ItemsRemoved Helm of the DominatorNew Talent Tree: 10 (+20 Attack Speed), 15 (+8 All Stats), 20 (15% Evasion), 25 (+20 Strength)Moved Blink Dagger to Core ItemsMoved Aghanim's Scepter to Core ItemsMoved Manta Style to Extension ItemsRemoved Helm of the DominatorRemoved ClarityAdded Shadow Blade to Core ItemsMoved Ring of Aquila to Early GameRemoved Morbid MaskAdded Yasha to Core Items (Mid - Aggro)Added Dragon Lance to Core Items (Mid - Aggro)Removed Helm of the DominatorMoved Hurricane Pike to Core ItemsRemoved Helm of the DominatorCreated New Tab: "Utility Items"Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"Created New Tab: "Utility Items"Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"Added Gem of True Sight to Utility ItemsNew Skill Build: E W E Q E Q E Q E Q E W E T T W W W T TAdded Solar Crest to Situational ItemsNew Talent Tree: 10 (+6 All Stats), 15 (+50 Damage), 20 (+60 Untouchable Slow), 25 (Enchant Affects Ancients)Added Phase Boots to Core ItemsAdded Drum of Endurance to Core ItemsAdded Hand of Midas to Situational ItemsAdded Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational ItemsRemoved Power TreadsRemoved Helm of the DominatorRemoved Rod of AtosCreated New Tab: "Starting Items (Middle)"Added Poor Man's Shield to "Starting Items (Middle)"Added Iron Branch x2 to "Starting Items (Middle)"Added Bottle to Situational ItemsMoved Phase Boots to Core Items (Safe Lane)Moved Ring of Aquila to Early GameRemoved Helm of the DominatorAdded Hand of Midas to Situational ItemsMoved Urn of Shadows to Core ItemsCreated New Tab: "Starting Items (Middle)"Created New Tab: "Early Game (Middle)"Added Wraith Band to "Starting Items (Middle)"Added Faerie Fire to "Starting Items (Middle)"Added Iron Branch to "Starting Items (Middle)"Added Ring of Aquila to "Early Game (Middle)"Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game (Middle)"Added Blight Stone to "Early Game (Middle)"Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension ItemsAdded Mjollnir to Extension ItemsAdded Eye of Skadi to Extension ItemsAdded Bloodthorn to Extension ItemsMoved Bottle to "Early Game (Middle)"Moved Linken's Sphere to Core ItemsRemoved Healing SalveRemoved DaedalusRemoved Monkey King BarNew Talent Tree: 10 (+6 Strength), 15 (+7 All Stats), 20 (+15 Agility), 25 (+200 Shukuchi Movement Speed)Added Blight Stone to Starting ItemsAdded Medallion of Courage to Early GameAdded Aghanim's Scepter to Core ItemsAdded Solar Crest to Core ItemsAdded Bottle to Situational ItemsAdded Hand of Midas to Situational ItemsAdded Vladmir's Offering to Situational ItemsAdded Lotus Orb to Extension ItemsAdded Boots of Travel to Extension ItemsMoved Power Treads to Early GameMoved Magic Wand to Early GameMoved Desolator to Extension ItemsMoved Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension ItemsMoved Linken's Sphere to Extension ItemsRemoved Healing SalveRemoved Observer WardRemoved Boots of SpeedRemoved Dragon LanceRemoved Black King BarRemoved ButterflyRemoved Eye of SkadiRemoved DaedalusNew Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E T E R W W T W R T T (1. Boundless Strike 2. Jingu Mastery 3. Tree Dance)New Talent Tree: 10 (+20 Attack Speed), 15 (+75 Jingu Mastery Damage), 20 (+40 Damage), 25 (+100% Boundless Strike Crit)Added Skull Basher to Core ItemsMoved Desolator to Extension ItemsMoved Silver Edge to Extension ItemsRemoved Poor Man's ShieldRemoved Boots of SpeedRemoved Shadow BladeRemoved ButterflyRemoved Assault CuirassCreated New Tab: "Core Items (Aghanim's)"Added Phase Boots to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"Added Ring of Aquila to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"Added Maelstrom to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"Added Aghanim's Scepter to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"Added Black King Bar to "Core Items (Aghanim's)"Added Mjolnnir to Extension ItemsMoved Black King Bar to Core ItemsMoved Sange & Yasha to Situational ItemsMoved Manta Style to Extension ItemsNew Talent Tree: 10 (+6% Spell Amplification), 15 (+30 Damage), 20 (20% Cooldown Reduction), 25 (3 Homing Missile Charges) https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-19 16:18:28 #6914



http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=129193377



Maybe I'll just make another Necrophos guide, but I personally don't really want to.



Gonna retire one more: Earth Spirit (Core).

Gonna finalize HOTD adjustments by this week, then I'll wait a week and publish 10 more guides.



Then I'll wait a week or two to announce it (I'll be going to Moscow in the coming week, so I'll be a bit busy). I want to do a Necrophos mid, but there is no way to fit it into this guide without it being convoluted (even if they share the same ability build)Maybe I'll just make another Necrophos guide, but I personally don't really want to.Gonna retire one more:Earth Spirit (Core).Gonna finalize HOTD adjustments by this week, then I'll wait a week and publish 10 more guides.Then I'll wait a week or two to announce it (I'll be going to Moscow in the coming week, so I'll be a bit busy). https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Buckyman Profile Joined May 2014 1362 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-19 22:36:29 #6915 From what I've seen in the high level / pro scene ( example ) Monkey King supports usually max Tree Dance before Jingu because they aren't able to lock onto a single target for very long until they have items, and because they farm with Primal Spring.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2017-03-19 22:44:44 #6916 On March 20 2017 07:36 Buckyman wrote:

From what I've seen in the high level / pro scene ( From what I've seen in the high level / pro scene ( example ) Monkey King supports usually max Tree Dance before Jingu because they aren't able to lock onto a single target for very long until they have items, and because they farm with Primal Spring.



Link to Dotabuff match?



How does he have the mana to be able to farm with max W (130).



I'm seeing polarizing value between Max W and Max E second



- Max Jingu second

- Max Jingu second

- Max Primal then Jingu Link to Dotabuff match?How does he have the mana to be able to farm with max W (130).I'm seeing polarizing value between Max W and Max E second https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3065053271 - Max Jingu second https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3064727959 - Max Jingu second https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3062778358 - Max Primal then Jingu https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Buckyman Profile Joined May 2014 1362 Posts #6917 The linked YouTube cast is for your third Dotabuff example.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6918 The build is a little inordinate to be able to claim that we should max W, no? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Velzi Profile Joined June 2012 Finland 598 Posts #6919 That reddit thread where the guy claimed w max to be best is probably right or atleast close to. TBH u are not going to make a huge mistake whether u max q or w first, obv vs heroes who have blinks and stuff stun is better than slow. Simple math.



I dont think u should waste too much time on this, its negligible difference imo Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #6920 We'll see soon, going to finalize changes today and then post stats.



Then I might do the guides now before it gets too late. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

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