Raelcun Profile Blog Joined March 2008 United States 3714 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-10 01:16:40 #1



So what exactly am I talking about? Let me elaborate for you on some of the specific non numbers related issues that are causing problems in the way the Terran units work.



Issue #1: This thing



Not even going to mention how you can't tell if it's upgrading or not.



Stop and think about the number of tech buildings required for Terran, once you have a barracks a factory and a starport the only additional tech buildings are: Armory, Ghost Academy, and Fusion Core (lol). Okay we're seeing more of the last one but all of the rest comes down to switching things around on those tech labs. They're cheap they build quickly and it's easy with any decent amount of APM to swap around buildings to change your tech patterns dramatically. This entire dynamic allows Terran to if anything easier to switch tech paths with than a zerg player. A Zerg player has to drop a building in order to make a new unit and if that building is scouted then you know what is coming.



Protoss need relatively few tech buildings as well but it's a little easier to tell when they're switching techs because of a few things. Armory can mean thors or it could just be to get more upgrades you don't know whats coming out of that factory until you see the unit pop out. Ghost Academy is a pretty strong indication of GHOSTS fair enough same as Fusion Core but even if they're just sitting on an Armory possibly just for upgrades they can on short notice switch their tech patterns around easily. 3 Rax bio easily with some tech lab switching becomes banshee raven marine. More switching becomes Marauder Thor Medivac. Terran one of the toughest races to scout is able to freely tech switch almost the easiest. This is kind of a problem. Why are they the hardest race to scout? Well thats another point



Issue #2: Sensor Towers



Two of these well placed cause the famous "tits of pain" in different sense



Okay Sensor Towers are a decent idea but the issue is they're pretty cheap, build just as fast a missile turret. Theres no way to counter them, their coverage is ridiculously big and the ability to see units on the minimap requires little to no effort to use them effectively.



So basically we have a cheap spammable tower from pretty much any time forward once you get past the early game that gives terran the ability to know when you're trying to outmaneuver them. They are supposed to be the slow race easy to outmaneuver and abuse their immobility but this does not work when they know it's coming without even having to spend scans. Sensor towers require zero APM, originally in alpha IIRC they only showed units on the fog of war not on the minimap even this would be preferable as players would have to be watching their sensor tower coverage not just sitting macroing while staring at their minimap able to see incoming drops every time. Oh yeah drops



Issue #3: Medivacs



The "heal bus"



Okay this is not the typical complaint about Medivacs, their healing is a lot but whatever medics were pretty freaking powerful as well. The issue is that in order for any decent terran bio strategy the Medivac is required for the healing unless you're going to be going for an early game allin if you don't have medivacs you're doing it wrong. This opens up a unique dynamic to the Terran players, they already have drop tech in almost every game they do not have to spend extra resources in order to drop you because they are already producing a small army of dropships.



In Brood War dropships were a seperate investment that took away from a necessary unit the Science Vessel. In lategame you needed to be pumping Science Vessels in order to make dropships this production had to temporarily cease. Going for drops was a decision for them in BW as it is now for both of the other races in SC2. Protoss have to stop making immortals/colossus/observers to make a warp prism. If they try to do it late game see point #2 on why that won't work. So early drops are this decision to reduce your colossus or Immortal count by Protoss and it better damned well pay off or thats 200 minerals + time that could have gone towards more useful army units.





Most people don't realize how much of of an investment these are other than just 200 minerals.



Zerg players have to sit through two extremely long tech 2 upgrades on their hatch/Lair totalling 300/300 minerals resources. It's understandable that they have to upgrade and overlords dont automatically drop because they already HAVE to make overlords. See this is where I run into the issue. Both races have to make these units as part of their strategies unless the Terran is going hardcore mech. But only the zerg has to upgrade the drop capability. Terran gains the ability to with no resources invested besides the APM required to shift click a drop in your base while doing something else. This plus the fact that #2 means you cannot do it to them as effecitvely makes this rather infurating as a Zerg or a Protoss.



Issue #4: Auto-repair



These little guys even though they are missing health are rather formidabble.



This is a two fold issue, the fact that like many other mechanics auto-repair requires no APM right click the icon when you want to use it then turn it off when you are done. This makes strategies such as a fast thor repair allin or a battlecruiser rush inherently more powerful because you have two extremely powerful lategame units being supported by a small army of repairing scvs that require no micro. This means that you only have to support the big ass unit with a few of it's supporting units and let the scvs do their own thing. This takes away considerably from the skill required to execute these types of strategies.



Second issue is the fact that Medivacs take a high priority on auto attack priority because of the fact that they are healing the enemy army. This makes sense many players rage over this but I can understand the reasoning. This is one of the many inconsistencies with terran right here, because the scv when repairing not only is pretty much the lowest unit on the priority list it is one of the hardest to focus fire as opposed to the Medivac. Two units which heal/support the enemy army and the one that is easy to right click on takes auto attack priority and the one that is often hidden by the 3D models it is repairing does not. The main issue is the fact that that thor rush that BC rush that we were talkinga bout earlier while not inherently overpowered because it's a huge investment if it doesn't work they're screwed. This winds up working out like many other all-in attacks but the keys to defeating these strategies often lay in killing the scvs which is not easy even if they're out in the open due to the supporting units but now we're talking about scvs that don't have to be controlled and are hidden by their massive units they are supporting. If one of the two units Medivac and repairing scvs should be on the high priority list it should be repairing scvs.





If he were attacking from above you wouldn't be able to see most of those SCVS.



Now this could cause an issue with an scv mining with auto repair being on taking a higher priority but since they already have this priority system worked out pretty nicely with the scvs the check that the game system should make instead of being "is autorepair == on" or whatever code equivalent it should be "is unitattacktoggle == on or isunitaction == repair" subsitute generic variables for the real ones. Make it so that scvs who are repairing are on the same priority as Medivacs again not a unit balance issue just a mechanic issue.



Conclusion



These four things while not the usual things that get whined about in Terran being imba are not easily fixed by tweaking a few numbers as might happen with the Battlecruiser attack damage, or reaper build time, or tank damage etc etc. These are more along the lines of the Core mechanics of the Terran race that cause issues. The problem is that many of these issues work very well together, see #2 and #3 together possibly in combination with #4. And #1 and #2 together meaning quick tech switches with the inability to scout it. This will not be fixed by a simple "just do this" answer it requires more elegant solutions as like I said they're based around supposed staples of the Terran mechanics.



There are somewhat simple fixes that you might be able to suggest but would they really fix the problem? If you notice one of the main things in common with the issues is #2 #3 and #4 all require very little APM. Sensor towers require no management, Medivacs can be easily shift+queued and autorepair takes one click. Even if you change these to take some APM the top level players will still be able to muster the actions to do these effectively anyways, yes it will be tougher and make it much harder so that you can stress a player into missing these mechanics. This might be a way to create a soft fix to the mechanic but it would go against blizzard wanting to make levels of play between top and casuals at least somewhat equal. The only way to counter it is to be a top player and put stress on the terran is not the type of fix that they seem to like so far.



The point #1 on Tech Labs is probably the weakest one as it's not as big of an issue as the other three but in combination with #2 it becomes a pretty big problem.



Solutions?



I can think of a few off the top of my head but they all have downsides.



Make the drop capability of Medivacs an upgrade just like Zerg as they will be making these units to heal their army in a similar manner to zergs making overlords for supply. They are a necessary unit so why should they get drop capability for no extra cost. This would also require a tech lab on a starport initially in order to start drops.



-This also would make it even harder to scout what a Terran is doing causing more inferences. Late to midgame Starport with a tech lab on it, has he already upgraded drop? Is he going for ravens or is he about to switch with a reactor and make Medivacs.





-This also would make it even harder to scout what a Terran is doing causing more inferences. Late to midgame Starport with a tech lab on it, has he already upgraded drop? Is he going for ravens or is he about to switch with a reactor and make Medivacs. Make Sensor Towers manageable, either give them an activated ability with a cooldown or energy cost or remove the sight on Mini map harking back to the early days when you could only see the units on the fog of war. Make Terrans have to do more than just make a tower. Because even if they get killed it does not take much time or resources to replace a tower which pretty much prevents you from being able to be dropped on if you have them in good position with antiair on standby.



-Forcing terrans to pan across the fog of war in order to keep up seems a bit silly, yes go stare at the black area. Hmm not the most elegant solution, and MBS makes hitting 0 and hitting the E key to keep your sensor tower coverage up somewhat easier.





-Forcing terrans to pan across the fog of war in order to keep up seems a bit silly, yes go stare at the black area. Hmm not the most elegant solution, and MBS makes hitting 0 and hitting the E key to keep your sensor tower coverage up somewhat easier. Make a toggle on scvs so that when they are repairing they are a higher priority unit similar to the one for when they are attacking, this is mostly because of the fact that it can be difficult to focus fire units behind a thor, under a battlecruiser as opposed to a Medivac which already is a high priority unit but flies above everything else and is inherently easier to target as needed.



-As stated earlier this could cause issues with the targetting priority of mining scvs.



Afterword

Please keep in mind the final sentences of the introductory paragraph, don't let this degenerate into TERRAN IMBA CRY CRY WHINE WHINE WHY BLIZZ WHY. But more of a "how can we think of ways to elegantly solve this." This will come down to the KISS method of the simplest solutions will probably some of the best. But this does not mean "just remove it" is an answer either. I'm still unsure as to what might fix these issues so thats why I am bringing this up and soliciting opinions. This really isnt a numbers problem of change the health, change their cost etc etc.



tl;dr

No you don't get one look back up and read it lazy bum.



edits: spelling so far Okay so everyones crying over Terran imba, terran OP but after quite a long time of looking at it and watching games and really thinking about it I have come to a conclusion. The terran race seems slightly overtuned but it's not an issue with any one particular unit it's a combination of many things that when put together makes it very difficult to solve. So instead of making another whine thread I plan on laying out the issues that I see and putting up the problem that is "how do you fix this?" Because there really is no easy way to solve some of the issues that we are seeing without breaking other things.So what exactly am I talking about? Let me elaborate for you on some of the specific non numbers related issues that are causing problems in the way the Terran units work.Stop and think about the number of tech buildings required for Terran, once you have a barracks a factory and a starport the only additional tech buildings are: Armory, Ghost Academy, and Fusion Core (lol). Okay we're seeing more of the last one but all of the rest comes down to switching things around on those tech labs. They're cheap they build quickly and it's easy with any decent amount of APM to swap around buildings to change your tech patterns dramatically. This entire dynamic allows Terran to if anything easier to switch tech paths with than a zerg player. A Zerg player has to drop a building in order to make a new unit and if that building is scouted then you know what is coming.Protoss need relatively few tech buildings as well but it's a little easier to tell when they're switching techs because of a few things. Armory can mean thors or it could just be to get more upgrades you don't know whats coming out of that factory until you see the unit pop out. Ghost Academy is a pretty strong indication of GHOSTS fair enough same as Fusion Core but even if they're just sitting on an Armory possibly just for upgrades they can on short notice switch their tech patterns around easily. 3 Rax bio easily with some tech lab switching becomes banshee raven marine. More switching becomes Marauder Thor Medivac. Terran one of the toughest races to scout is able to freely tech switch almost the easiest. This is kind of a problem. Why are they the hardest race to scout? Well thats another pointOkay Sensor Towers are a decent idea but the issue is they're pretty cheap, build just as fast a missile turret. Theres no way to counter them, their coverage is ridiculously big and the ability to see units on the minimap requires little to no effort to use them effectively.So basically we have a cheap spammable tower from pretty much any time forward once you get past the early game that gives terran the ability to know when you're trying to outmaneuver them. They are supposed to be the slow race easy to outmaneuver and abuse their immobility but this does not work when they know it's coming without even having to spend scans. Sensor towers require zero APM, originally in alpha IIRC they only showed units on the fog of war not on the minimap even this would be preferable as players would have to be watching their sensor tower coverage not just sitting macroing while staring at their minimap able to see incoming drops every time. Oh yeah dropsOkay this is not the typical complaint about Medivacs, their healing is a lot but whatever medics were pretty freaking powerful as well. The issue is that in order for any decent terran bio strategy the Medivac is required for the healing unless you're going to be going for an early game allin if you don't have medivacs you're doing it wrong. This opens up a unique dynamic to the Terran players, they already have drop tech in almost every game they do not have to spend extra resources in order to drop you because they are already producing a small army of dropships.In Brood War dropships were a seperate investment that took away from a necessary unit the Science Vessel. In lategame you needed to be pumping Science Vessels in order to make dropships this production had to temporarily cease. Going for drops was a decision for them in BW as it is now for both of the other races in SC2. Protoss have to stop making immortals/colossus/observers to make a warp prism. If they try to do it late game see point #2 on why that won't work. So early drops are this decision to reduce your colossus or Immortal count by Protoss and it better damned well pay off or thats 200 minerals + time that could have gone towards more useful army units.Zerg players have to sit through two extremely long tech 2 upgrades on their hatch/Lair totalling 300/300 minerals resources. It's understandable that they have to upgrade and overlords dont automatically drop because they already HAVE to make overlords. See this is where I run into the issue. Both races have to make these units as part of their strategies unless the Terran is going hardcore mech. But only the zerg has to upgrade the drop capability. Terran gains the ability to with no resources invested besides the APM required to shift click a drop in your base while doing something else. This plus the fact that #2 means you cannot do it to them as effecitvely makes this rather infurating as a Zerg or a Protoss.This is a two fold issue, the fact that like many other mechanics auto-repair requires no APM right click the icon when you want to use it then turn it off when you are done. This makes strategies such as a fast thor repair allin or a battlecruiser rush inherently more powerful because you have two extremely powerful lategame units being supported by a small army of repairing scvs that require no micro. This means that you only have to support the big ass unit with a few of it's supporting units and let the scvs do their own thing. This takes away considerably from the skill required to execute these types of strategies.Second issue is the fact that Medivacs take a high priority on auto attack priority because of the fact that they are healing the enemy army. This makes sense many players rage over this but I can understand the reasoning. This is one of the many inconsistencies with terran right here, because the scv when repairing not only is pretty much the lowest unit on the priority list it is one of the hardest to focus fire as opposed to the Medivac. Two units which heal/support the enemy army and the one that is easy to right click on takes auto attack priority and the one that is often hidden by the 3D models it is repairing does not. The main issue is the fact that that thor rush that BC rush that we were talkinga bout earlier while not inherently overpowered because it's a huge investment if it doesn't work they're screwed. This winds up working out like many other all-in attacks but the keys to defeating these strategies often lay in killing the scvs which is not easy even if they're out in the open due to the supporting units but now we're talking about scvs that don't have to be controlled and are hidden by their massive units they are supporting. If one of the two units Medivac and repairing scvs should be on the high priority list it should be repairing scvs.Now this could cause an issue with an scv mining with auto repair being on taking a higher priority but since they already have this priority system worked out pretty nicely with the scvs the check that the game system should make instead of being "is autorepair == on" or whatever code equivalent it should be "is unitattacktoggle == on or isunitaction == repair" subsitute generic variables for the real ones. Make it so that scvs who are repairing are on the same priority as Medivacs again not a unit balance issue just a mechanic issue.These four things while not the usual things that get whined about in Terran being imba are not easily fixed by tweaking a few numbers as might happen with the Battlecruiser attack damage, or reaper build time, or tank damage etc etc. These are more along the lines of the Core mechanics of the Terran race that cause issues. The problem is that many of these issues work very well together, see #2 and #3 together possibly in combination with #4. And #1 and #2 together meaning quick tech switches with the inability to scout it. This will not be fixed by a simple "just do this" answer it requires more elegant solutions as like I said they're based around supposed staples of the Terran mechanics.There are somewhat simple fixes that you might be able to suggest but would they really fix the problem? If you notice one of the main things in common with the issues is #2 #3 and #4 all require very little APM. Sensor towers require no management, Medivacs can be easily shift+queued and autorepair takes one click. Even if you change these to take some APM the top level players will still be able to muster the actions to do these effectively anyways, yes it will be tougher and make it much harder so that you can stress a player into missing these mechanics. This might be a way to create a soft fix to the mechanic but it would go against blizzard wanting to make levels of play between top and casuals at least somewhat equal. The only way to counter it is to be a top player and put stress on the terran is not the type of fix that they seem to like so far.The point #1 on Tech Labs is probably the weakest one as it's not as big of an issue as the other three but in combination with #2 it becomes a pretty big problem.I can think of a few off the top of my head but they all have downsides.Please keep in mind the final sentences of the introductory paragraph, don't let this degenerate into TERRAN IMBA CRY CRY WHINE WHINE WHY BLIZZ WHY. But more of a "how can we think of ways to elegantly solve this." This will come down to the KISS method of the simplest solutions will probably some of the best. But this does not mean "just remove it" is an answer either. I'm still unsure as to what might fix these issues so thats why I am bringing this up and soliciting opinions. This really isnt a numbers problem of change the health, change their cost etc etc.No you don't get one look back up and read it lazy bum.edits: spelling so far