For this week’s piece, I had the pleasure of interviewing one of my best friends in the world, Alex. They are a graduate of the University of Connecticut and a Laboratory Assistant at the Yale Center for Genomic Analysis. In our interview, we talked about being genderfluid, the binary way that scientists are often described, and more!

Jamie Moffa: The first thing we’re going to start with is just your name and pronouns.

Alex Marshall: My name is Alex Marshall. My pronouns are…complicated. They switch between she/her/hers, they/them/theirs, and he/him/his, and it honestly depends on the day which one of them I prefer to use. Today, they/them/theirs for the ease of this interview.

JM: All right. And when I talk about you in the introduction to this, what pronouns should I use?

AM: They/them/theirs.

JM: How do you identify in terms of your gender and your sexuality?

AM: So my gender how I identify is, I often use terms “genderqueer”, “genderfluid, “gender nonconforming”. I find that genderfluid is generally something that most people understand better, but if I’m with somebody from the community who maybe understands it a little bit better, I usually use bigender. And bigender would be that I either sway more towards feminine or more towards masculine, and I’m not very often solidly in the middle, I am almost always feminine or masculine.

My sexuality is, I would say, bisexual, but I am panromantic, which means that I have romantic feelings for pretty much anybody that exests. Not anybody as in anybody, but I can have romantic feelings for anyone who exists. But only sexual feelings for somebody who is masculine or feminine.

JM: And what is your current job or position?

AM: I currently work for the Yale center for genomic analysis, and I am a laboratory assistant.

JM: Awesome. All right, so my next question is just, if you can tell us a little bit about your gender journey.

AM: This is an identity that I’ve had for my entire life, but I just didn’t know it until I got to college. And I remember being in middle school, I remember occasionally I would wear my father’s clothing, because I fit into his pants and I fit into his shirt. So sometimes I would wear my dad’s clothes to school, and I would take my hair and I would put it up under a baseball cap so you couldn’t see that it was long, and it made me happy, and I didn’t know why. And I remember getting giddy at points when people would say sir, or son, or boy, or something like that. And I would just get very happy. And, apparently, that’s not something that happens to everyone. So, that’s a little bit about it when I was a kid, I just didn’t really understand what it was.

It was very difficult for me once I started being in college and learning a lot of the terminology and things like that. As an RA, I got a very extensive education on all kinds of different queer communities. And so, even when I understood definitions of things, it was very hard for me to come to terms with my own gender. Because I would switch between being masculine and being feminine, so many people called me a tomboy growing up, and I just accepted those labels as they were without actually exploring who I was. And it was up until my sophomore year of college, when I’d had almost a year and a half of exposure to this, when I could actually admit to myself like, “Hey, you know what, what I’m feeling isn’t quite what people call a ‘tomboy.’ Because I feel like I am a man, sometimes.” And it would be very jarring on the days when I would feel very much like a woman, because my mind and my body were so in sync that I would be like, “Oh, maybe that’s not actually a thing. Maybe what I thought I felt on that day when I felt like I was a man was just a falsity in my own mind.” So it took me a long time to realize how I could identify, and what felt good, and what pronouns felt good, and what clothing felt good to wear, and things like that.

Now I’m pretty open, I mean all of my friends I am open to. I am not shouting to the heavens to my colleagues, but I don’t hide it from them either. The only people who don’t know who I actively try not to have know is my family, and they have their own personal opinions and I just happen to disagree with them to a point where I think it’s going to be best for me and for them to hold off for a little bit longer.

JM: Yeah. So when did you first come out to somebody else, and what was that like?

AM: The first time I ever came out was to a classroom! And it was in college, it was one of my gender studies classes, and they were going around the room and asking for names and pronouns, and I didn’t have any friends in this class, and I just stood up and said, “My name is Alex, I am gender fluid, and I use he/him and she/her pronouns”–I didn’t use they/them at the time–and I sat down, and the class just accepted it and went “Yep, that person is Alex, and we’re all going to move on with our lives.” Inside I was like “hehehehee, nobody knows!” And then I gradually came out to friends I was close to, friends that I trusted, mostly friends that were in the community, at the time, first. And then extended outward to friends that were not in the community and then became part of the community later in their journey. And so, it was gradual, but I definitely think it was important for me that the first time I came out was to people who didn’t know me, and just accepted my identity as it was, right then, no questions asked.

JM: Yeah. So you said that your family is not very supportive of the community in general, but were your friends and the people who you were coming out to around that time, were they generally supportive?

AM: Oh, absolutely. I didn’t run into a single person who was like, “How dare you, I disagree with your entire being.” I know those people existed on campus, I just did not run into them ever. And as I said I was an RA, and I came out to all of the people who were on my floor, and all of my coworkers here and there. So, all the people that I came out to were very very supportive, and tried very hard. There were some who had to try a little bit more than others, but everyone was always very supportive.

JM: Yeah. All right, and you mentioned that, at work, you’re not necessarily super vocal, but you’re also not in the closet. So have you explicitly come out to people at work, and what was that like?

AM: So, I’m going to give you a little bit of background on my work history, too, because I’m talking about the job I have currently, and I had previous jobs where I’ve not come out to anybody. And those were, I worked a couple of retail and fast food restaurant jobs, and I never felt comfortable in those spaces. I never felt close to those people, I never felt that they would really understand, and I felt that if I had said something to them I would start to be treated differently, and I wouldn’t get the same respect or the same conversation, I suppose, as other people would. And so, many jobs I did not come out. One of those jobs is, actually, I worked at LabCorp in a histology lab, and it had a very similar feel to some of those other jobs, where it was a lot of people, and I didn’t feel comfortable coming out to any of them. It just wasn’t a good queer community, safe, I suppose. The job that I’m at now, I have not come out to everybody, but I have a couple of close coworkers who I have explicitly come out to. I’ve corrected people’s pronouns here and there when they’re referring to me. And you know, not coming out outright, but being, you know, “he”, “they”, and get looks like, “Okay then.” And everybody at the lab is like, it’s never hostile, it’s never bad, but sometimes people give me looks, sometimes they continue on.

JM: Yeah. And when you were applying, maybe to this job specifically, on that application were you open about your gender identity?

AM: I tend to, when I’m filling out job applications, I never put in male or female. But also, I don’t explicitly come out. Because, for one, I think that it is important that future employers look at me without bias, and I find that, if they assume that I am a woman, if they assume that I am genderfluid, if they assume that I am queer or gay or whatever they may assume, even though it may not have a lasting impact, it still can sway how they interview. And of course, when I walk through the door, they make whatever assumptions they make, but I think that it is important for me to not answer those questions before the interview, so that they don’t have time to sit on it and think of how the interview will go before I actually get through the door.

JM: That makes sense. So, do you think that the scientific community as a whole is accepting to transgender and gender nonconforming people?

AM: Unfortunately I do not. You know, I don’t think that the scientific community is very open to transgender or gender nonconforming people at this moment. I never walk into a room that’s full of a scientific community and immediately feel safe. I have to walk into a room, I have to talk to people, I have to get the vibe, I have to listen to political opinions, I have to listen to personal opinions, I have to feel out the people and feel out the room before I feel comfortable saying anything about my gender, anything about my sexuality. And I don’t necessarily think the scientific community is any farther along or farther back than any other community. When I was working retail and working food service, it’s the same deal, where I would go into a room and I would feel out what kind of people were there. And, granted, I have felt more comfortable in some scientific settings than any retail setting, but also it’s not a hard and fast rule.

JM: So what could be done better to better accept transgender and gender nonconforming people in science?

AM: I think that some of the most important things to do in science is allow people to put their chosen name on things. Allow people to, if they need to change their email address so it reflects what their name is, they should be able to do that. Because that’s a lot of steps, and it’s very difficult. I’ve done it, multiple times, where I’ve gone through all the steps, and talking with HR, and going through the process, because my legal name and my chosen name aren’t the same right now. And I think it’s important to allow for simple things like that, so that when I email people, they’re not using the wrong name, I don’t have to correct them and go through the whole process of saying “this is why.” I also thing it would be important to hold–because a lot of times there are harrassment trainings, and there are seminars, and there are scientific conferences and things like that, and none of them have specific conferences or meetings or education just on the queer community and what queer vocabulary there is, and how to respond and react and not ask the wrong questions, too. Even if it’s a short, small educational program for people, I think it would be important to have, so that somebody who’s going through a transgender transition isn’t being asked very inappropriate questions by people. And I don’t think people want to ask inappropriate questions, I think they just don’t know how to handle it.

JM: Yeah, for sure. So do you ever feel like there is any conflict between your gender identity and your role as a scientist?

AM: I think that, in terms of my gender identity and my role as a scientist, that there is tension when it comes to accomplishments. Not necessarily my accomplishments, but there are labels put on things, if you think about it. “This woman did this scientific thing,” and “This man did this other scientific thing,” and “Look at the women of science and look at the men of science, and see what they’ve done and accomplished,” and “Isn’t it so great that this woman did this and that,” and of course it’s a binary way of speaking, so, you know, “Look at what this transgender, nonconforming person did,” doesn’t even come into the conversation.

JM: Right

AM: I think that there is too much pressure put on what gender this person was when they came up with this scientific, you know, whatever it is that they did. Whatever research, whatever helpful thing, whatever–if it’s a doctor, or a researcher, or if it’s somebody who just works in science in any way, saying what they did and what gender they are is a very normal thing to do. I’ve had people walk into my lab, and my lab is a very female-heavy lab, and I’ve had people walk in and go, “Well, this lab is doing really good for itself, because look at how many women there are!” That shouldn’t happen.

JM: Yeah. I’m going to ask you a follow-up question, because I feel this one a lot, but do you ever feel pressured to identify a certain way because it sounds good to, like, support or be another strong woman in science?

AM: Yes. Not necessarily in that context, though. I feel pressured to identify as a woman simply because it is easier for people to understand my scientific accomplishments if I am identifying how they see me. If I don’t identify how people see me, it takes away from my scientific accomplishment, and is more focused and fascinated on my gender, which has nothing to do with my scientific accomplishments. Does that make sense?

JM: Yeah. So, do you consider yourself to be a member of the broader transgender and LGBTQIA+ community?

AM: Yes, I do. I like to put myself under the trans* category, because my gender is not in line with my sex, so I do put myself under the trans* umbrella, and I also put myself in the LGBTQIA+ community. And I appreciate that you used all of the letters, because there’s so much there, and there’s so much love, and there’s so much community there. And I’m not saying everybody in that community necessarily has all of the love and all of the understanding, but I feel like when I’m in a room with other people who are LGBTQIA+, that I am in a space where I can be myself, and I can allow them to be themselves, and it’s all just happy. It’s all good.

JM: Yeah. And are you involved in advocacy for the trans or LGBTQIA+ community?

AM: So, back when I was working at LabCorp, I actually started the process of creating a LGBTQIA+ program, group. Yeah, so when I was working at LabCorp, I was working towards creating an LGBTQIA+ group within the campus that I was working at. Because there were some within the company that were in other campuses, but mine didn’t have one, and I was in the process of working on creating that group, creating a mandatory education for everybody in the group. I was responsible for setting up the powerpoints, setting up all of the things, having it approved by HR, and having HR go through all the processes with all the corporate branches to make sure that it was ok, to make this a mandatory education for people that I felt was very important for where I was at. I was not the only person in the LGBTQIA+ community at that campus, at that job. So, I did not, I was not able to finish this task, as I left for a better job, i.e., where I work now, at the Yale Center for Genomic Analysis. I have not yet started to work on advocating at this point, I have only been at this job for about 3 months, but I hope that after I’ve been there for at least a year, that I’ll be able to start advocating on the campus, and for the workers.

JM: Awesome! And, do you feel like your advocacy has ever created conflict with your job or employment?

AM: I think–well, when I went through with the advocacy that I was trying to do at LabCorp, I realized that there was a lot of red tape, and there’s a lot of difficulty trying to push that forward, and nobody wants to, and nobody thinks–not that nobody thinks that it’s important, but nobody wants to put forth the effort to go through, to have all the steps done. And even me, being somebody who is willing to do all the work that I can, I still needed help from people, I still needed help from HR, I still needed to go around, I needed to get people who were willing to be in the group. And it was definitely a direct barrier in a lot of ways.

JM: And, does your role as a scientist–has that influenced your views on any current issues within the community?

AM: As a scientist, I do a lot of research. So, for example, I had a friend of mine forward me a very very interesting paper on phalloplasty, and it was extremely interesting, and I loved that the research and the technology and the medical applications are coming through for gender confirming surgery. But also there’s important things like tools that you can use, such as a stand-to-pee. It’s a very simple tool that can be used by people who have vulvas to stand to pee, which you wouldn’t think that’s particularly important until you’re in the trans community, and you identify as a man, and see how important standing up to pee is important when you identify as a man. And so, even those little tools and tricks and things to help people conform with whatever gender that they identify as. So I find that, not necessarily that being in the scientific community helps or hinders my information, but because I am a scientific mind in the scientific community, I get a lot more information than other people.

JM: Yeah. So I have three more questions: So first, what is the biggest challenge you’ve faced as a gender nonconforming researcher?

AM: I think the biggest challenge that I’ve faced as a gender nonconforming researcher is just coming out, I think, is the biggest challenge, because you have to still work with your coworkers, and go through your projects that you’re working on, and do the research that you’re doing. And all the while, you have this social buzzing going on in your head: “What are they thinking, are they still respecting me as a person?” Not to say that anyone’s ever outwardly done anything to make me not think that, but there’s some anxiety that goes with it, and I think coming out is the biggest challenge.

JM: Yeah. And what ways have you found to handle or approach that challenge?

AM: I find that my method of approaching that is to socially drop little nuggets of information for people to pick up before I come out, before I say anything, just kind of drop little nuggets of information, like what gender fluid is. I just tell people that definition all the time, unprovoked, I just tell people the definition of what gender fluid is, because I think it’s important. And just asking people, “Hey, do you know how many sexualities there are? Oh, let me just introduce you to a couple more!” And I find that, having those small conversations, dropping those little bits of information a little bit at a time over a long time, gives you an idea, gives them a little more education, and then when you come out to them, it’s not a huge shock, and they understand everything beforehand, so there’s not a huge explanation.

JM: Yeah. I’m just liking the idea of you introducing people to new sexualities. I’m like personifying the sexuality in my mind and having them literally shake hands. “Hello!”

AM: “And this is Pan.”

JM: “This here is Ace.”

JM: So, on the flip side of that, what has been the most uplifting experience you have had as a gender nonconforming person in science?

AM: I think the most uplifting is probably the most subtle, and that is the first time that one of my colleagues, unprovoked, without me reminding them within any recent time, used he/him pronouns casually in a conversation. And you don’t realize how important that is until somebody does it, and you’re just, “Oh, yay! Recognition of my gender!” And yeah, it’s just a regular conversation, they were just like, “Yeah, Alex was doing such and such, he…” and I heard that and I was just so thrilled. I went up to them afterwards, after we were out of the lunchroom, and it was a long time later, and I was like, “You used my pronouns!” and they were like, “Yeah, that’s what you asked me to do.” It was great.

JM: And finally, what is your message to upcoming generations of gender nonconforming and transgender physicians and/or scientists?

AM: My advice to physicians and scientists who are coming up, coming out, growing up as gender non-conforming, trans, whatever it may be, is that you have to allow yourself the space that you need, and you have to allow yourself to be confused, and anxious, and uncertain. And I know that’s really difficult for a lot of scientific minds, to be confused, and anxious, and uncertain, because so many people have gotten good grades all their life, and been told that they’re going to be wonderful in science, and what a great doctor you’ll be, and a lot of people in that community are so sure of themselves–not saying that goes for everyone, because it for sure does not–but to allow yourself the time and space and mental energy to be confused and figure it out a little bit at a time.

JM: Awesome! Well, thank you so much!

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