Full text transcripts brought to you by XYZ Type

Andy This is Working File. A Podcast about design practice and its relationship to the world. I'm Andy Mangold.

Matt And I'm Matt McInerney.

Andy On this episode, which was actually the first one we ever recorded, we're joined by Jen Mussari and Satchell Drakes to discuss being a designer in the public eye.

Matt What is the difference between being a famous dentist and being a famous designer?

Andy The world may never know.

Music

Andy This is good. We have theme music already apparently prepared.

Matt We were trying to figure that out but Satchell's got it. Thanks, man. We really appreciate it.

Andy If you could just send over... If you can just do a few little ditties like that, Satchell, we need some things for interstitials, we probably need an outro...

Matt We thought we'd have to hire somebody. We can just do like a Reggie Watts style, make it up as you go thing.

Andy That wouldn't be terrible at all. This is a conversational show where we talk about design in a way that is not bad and detestable hopefully. And every week, of course, we have Matt joining us from Philadelphia. Matt, how are things in the city of brotherly love?

Matt Great. It's snowy but I made it back alive. I was away for a week and all my flights got cancelled and I wasn't allowed to fly back. So I was stuck in the airport for a weekend but I'm finally home.

Andy Are you in that dirty snow phase that happens in cities where it's beautiful for a day or two and then all of a sudden it's just like the crust of urban life gets built into that snow?

Matt I missed everything that was beautiful and I came back to the crustiness. How does that sound?

Andy Oh, I see, you timed it perfectly.

Matt I sat in the airport while it was beautiful and then I got back as soon as it was crusty.

Andy Beautiful. You really have your timing down.

Matt I nailed it.

Andy You're a boss. And we're also... This week we have the pleasure of being joined by our esteemed glorious cat mother from Brooklyn, illustrator and designer and various great person Jen Mussari. Jen, what's up?

Jen Oh, Gosh, is that me? [chuckle]

Andy That's you. You said, "Esteemed and glorious leader."

Jen Yes.

Andy I changed leader to cat mother because you are the cat motheriest cat mother I know.

Jen I do appreciate. It kind of has like a Enya vibe, cat mother. I can work with that.

Laughter

Andy And then it's cue, Satchell doing Enya. That's good. And as you've heard in the background doing ditties the whole time, we are of course joined by Satchell. Satchell Drakes. Satchell is a designer, he's a video producer, makes great content, usually around video games that he posts to his YouTube channel. Satchell, I gotta say I really like the latest video for That Dragon, Cancer as well.

Satchell Oh dude, thanks a lot. Really encouraging to hear.

Andy It's beautiful. And I notice that the ad revenue for the first 60 days or wherever is going to Charity: Water, which I think is beautiful. You're a wonderful man, always a role model to all of us, and how is things in your life?

Satchell It's great. Just chilling man. [chuckle]

Andy Just chilling, composing theme music as you go impromptu, which is, of course, one of your greatest skills. So this week, for the first week of this ever, for the pilot week of this, I wanted to talk specifically about the idea of design in the public eye. It's something that I think we're all consciously aware of. We're all on Twitter here, we all have our various social platforms and whatnot. It's something that I don't think we talk about a lot, that design... Being a designer in lots of different ways, graphic design, working in interfaces, or product design, doing illustration, doing lettering, type design even. All these things are industries that have a lot of visibility to them and that causes this kind of idea that, if you're doing this work, you're supposed to be out there, active on social media, putting the word out about what you're doing.

Andy And I'm interested in how that... Why that is? Is that just because our industry is a visual industry? So, therefore, people like looking at stuff and we start collecting it and this naturally happens?

Satchell Well I'm curious to know because I feel like for whatever reason, I have this perception, feel free to discount it if it's not the case at all that you and Matt, especially having your involvement on this podcast talking about design for as long as you guys have, that you guys have somewhat or at least at some season of life had like a finger on the pulse of, I guess, the design scene and the internet people around it. I'm very aware that it exists, I don't feel a part of it at all, and I never really had a particular interest to pursue the kinds of conversations that were happening there, but I know that it exists. And I'm interested in hearing or knowing more about what that's like. 'Cause I have an idea of what it might look like. There are some designers that I follow on Twitter and stuff and I always hear opinions thrown out here and there, different jokes that surface and stuff.

Andy Well, it is funny. There was a time where I thought it was very important to follow lots of designers on Twitter. And follow lots of blogs that were posting design work and to really feel like I was in that community and in the mix with what was going on there. And at some point that just completely... I would say probably right around when I graduated maybe four, five years ago, I really kind of stopped doing all of that. Google Reader got cancelled and killed and I no longer had all those blogs I was following. I started unfollowing more designers on Twitter and following more astronauts and other kinds of interesting people that don't do what I do every day for a living. So I feel like I'm actually not in touch with the world as I know it, the world you're kind of describing, right?

Satchell Yeah.

Andy Where there's a design thing. Jen, I know that some people have the perception, I've at least heard people tell this to me, that you're kind in "the belly of the beast" in that part of Brooklyn you're in. Your studio is probably a studio that lots of people across the country wish they could work out of with all those talented great people. Do you feel like that... I mean it's true. You have lots of...

Jen That's sweet.

Andy I mean you have lots of really talented people with lots of Twitter followers and lots of recognizability that are working out of your studio. The studio you share, it's not your... It's not Studio Jen Mussari.

Jen No, it's definitely not.

Andy Do you feel like that's part of life in, being a designer in Brooklyn, that you have this kind of a weird invisibility? Or do you feel like that's not a thing?

Jen No, I think you're definitely right. And I think there's a few aspects of this. So right, you were talking about perception. There is definitely the factor of this idea that other people might have of communities that are elsewhere, whether it's in New York City, because you're not from New York City, or if it's just somewhere else completely, entirely. Just because you don't have an idea of what it's like there. So, it is kind of cool that, if I go out to a bar or something, there might be groups of people that I follow and was just having conversation with on Twitter, that actually happened last night. So, it is... I definitely fully enjoy that and I definitely don't take it for granted. When we see each other, it's always very genuine and very wonderful. But then, going back to the idea of perception, that's what I'm really interested in because it's often that'll be like, "Hey man, this guy might have a bunch of followers on Twitter, but I sit next to him and he's just like a dude."

Laughter

Jen Just like the rest of us.

Andy We're all just dudes and ladies at the end of the day.

Jen Yeah, or maybe not. Also, you know...

Andy Or whatever. Yeah, exactly. That's true.

Jen Anywhere on the spectrum, totally fluid. But there's this great quote that I think is fantastic. It's by this person named Noreen Morioka, and she says, "Being a famous designer is like being a famous dentist."

Laughter

Jen And that to me is like... Such a great...

Satchell That's real. Thank you. Yeah.

Jen Just swinging it into perspective. Because ultimately, we are a trade industry. We can talk about craft day in and day night but we are still just working on similar things and working towards similar goals.

Andy And I think you're definitely right. There's a little bit of, people trying to feel like, "Oh, I'm a famous designer or whatever. I have this many thousand followers on Twitter, therefore I'm some big hot shot." Which is, I think it's very important to point out that yeah, we're just still this very specific hyper specialized industry doing this particular type of work. And but what I think is interesting is that, a famous dentist, as far as I know, and I could just be really out of the dentist circles.

Chuckle

Andy I don't think famous dentists have followers on Twitter. Is that a thing? I guess what I'm talking about is, yes, there are talented, skilled dentists. Right? That may be sought after, maybe they are known as a specialist for a certain type of oral surgery and people come from all over the country to see that one dentist. But that dentist probably isn't as visible as the people that are famous in our industry, or "famous" in air quotes in our industry.

Jen I don't know. I might actually argue against that because I think that there are people within other specialty industries. Neil deGrasse Tyson for instance, has way too many followers than any scientist of his caliber should technically have because science is technically...

Andy [chuckle] Whoa. Shots fired.

Jen If there were a dentist, that's as interesting as him, of course he's gonna have that many followers, or they're gonna have that many followers because they're interesting people. So I think that, from our perspective, of course we're gonna look at famous designers differently than a famous dentist, but I truly feel that it's very similar. And maybe there are famous dentists that have plenty of followers on Twitter.

Matt I mean, I don't know if it's about Twitter followers but doesn't everybody get kind of famous in their field? Or doesn't every field have their own celebrities? Even if you're a famous dentist maybe you're talking at conferences and everybody goes to the conference and you're the keynote speaker every time, we're like, "Oh, I'm so sick of Steve the dentist. Every single dental conference has him as the keynote speaker."

Jen Absolutely. I think, and that's another interesting thing, is that we as designers are really good at reinventing things and feeling like we've discovered things, and so conferences still feel kind of new, right? Conferences still feel exciting and we've invented this coming together almost. But truthfully, my dad has been going to conferences... Tech conferences since before I was born. So, these kind of social gatherings within industries have always existed. We're just doing it in a slightly maybe more fun way. [chuckle] That I think is accessible to other people who are not within our industry.

Matt Part of me wonders if we have a little leg up in that... At least we pretend to be really good at communicating or... Especially if on the internet where communication is mostly visual, or lettering or something, that another thing we're supposed to be good at, do we have a leg up on a on the world on that? Because with just being pretty good at the thing that we do, we can communicate pretty well and get a lot of people to follow us, even if we're just a dude or a lady.

Satchell One thing that I've sort of seen over time that I've taken in passing note of, is there are a lot of people who actively pursue aesthetic excellence in the things that they do and they're very careful about what they curate and not everyone's rewarded for that. I do know a lot of people that might be really compelling film makers or really compelling designers. And I'm looking at the stuff that they're putting out, that's like, "Whoa, this is great." They're really waiting for the diamond in the rough but no one really has any idea... I don't know what it is, if it's just no one really has any idea who they are or because they hold off on that kind of stuff, they're infrequent or whatever, but they clearly know how to communicate with a lot of people. But there isn't a direct correlation between having that clear knowledge and having... I guess what I'll call a mimetic character. Sort of like, I don't wanna say viral.

Andy Something that has that stickiness.

Satchell Viral is like a curse word for me. But essentially that, that sort of explains best what I mean.

Andy Yeah.

Satchell I don't know if that speaks to what you're saying but...

Matt Actually, I've wondered if that's a way of being. I feel that is actually oftentimes rewarded online because there becomes the perception that everything this person does is perfect. I feel like that's what builds the character of somebody you would want to follow, somebody you'd see as a celebrity is you see their life is great, you see everything they do is great and there's just no failures visible, which I actually think is a little bit...

Andy Until they beef with Wiz Khalifa on Twitter. Then the failure is very visible.

Laughter

Satchell There you said it. Yeah.

Matt But, I actually feel like that's a little bit of the problem we have in the design community is that people don't really talk about their failures all that much, so it just seems like everybody you follow on Twitter has a great life and is much better at everything than you.

Satchell That's incredible uninteresting.

Matt I would rather hear a couple that struggle so I feel like...

Satchell A human.

Matt An equivalent [laughter] human being, as opposed to everything's perfect all the time, and, man, everytime I get a client I get to do everything I want and look at this.

Andy Yeah. And I think that to me that's part of it, right? So, even if there is a famous dentist out there that's got a big following and everyone knows this particular dentist, there's something about... You don't go and see that dentist work, maybe at a conference there'll be a presentation about some particular thing that was done, or a new technique, or something.

Satchell Could you imagine though a Squarespace portfolio of teeth.

Andy Exactly. There's not a portfolio of, "Look at these clean tooth, so clean, so white." And I think that the portfolio thing is a big part of where this...

Satchell Like leather grips on the cleaning tools and stuff.

Andy [laughter] All sorts of Instagram shots. I think it's something about that visual nature that... And it lends right into this idea of everything is perfect. We all carefully, or at least we're taught to very carefully prune our portfolios, show the best work, show only the best work, and make sure you're really highlighting the most important things. And I think most of us will agree that oftentimes a project looks better in our portfolio than it does in the real world, because of the context we put it in and all that stuff. One aspect of it, it generally, I should say, the fact that we tend to be outward in public in our industry, is something I think is great. You get to meet people, and know people, and follow their thoughts, and you get to actually choose to embed yourself in the community and surround yourself with it, and it's an option available to you.

Andy I don't know what you do if you're real excited about dentistry. I'm sure there's a journal or something, maybe a forum somewhere, but I don't think it's on the same scale as what we have available to us, so generally I think it's really good. And the one place where I think it gives me a little bit of pause is when I think about students or people that are new designers of any age that are trying to come into this community. And what it's like when you do have... You're projecting this perfection, of your process, your portfolio, you have your shots on Instagram of you sketching by a sunset in a log cabin, and whatever. It seems our tendency to put our best foot forward sometimes puts the industry in a light that almost gives people unattainable expectations for what their work is going to be. Is that a thing?

Satchell Yeah. I hear you.

Jen I would definitely agree with that. I think that's for sure. And I actually feel like we have a responsibility to be a little more self aware not just for ourselves but for younger designers, and for younger people in general who might be interested in this industry. Just because I feel like the reality is... I'm a more practical person but I do think that the reality is more interesting, it's also just more helpful. If a young designer is coming on thinking that they can make a living by just posting sketches on Instagram, they are sorely mistaken. I never want to be someone who puts forth that image and has a image that looks successful via Instagram, but then I have a full-time job doing something completely different. To me that's dishonest, and it's also actually dangerous.

Andy Yeah. I think it does take a little bit of thoughtfulness to try and consider how what you're putting out there might be perceived by others. That's part of the responsibility that comes along with what is unique about our industry and how it relates to the public. I don't know if that responsibility is something that really falls on other people and I do think it's there though. I don't know how it manifests itself, I don't wanna tell somebody who has a great hobby of doing lettering, or illustrations on their weekends to not put them online because it will seem like that's their job, and to not get a lot of followers.

Satchell Yeah. I wouldn't want to police how people share things, especially because we turn social networks in as highlight reels regardless, as a creator and then also as someone who's just taking in the content that's in front of us. I guess trying to curate that reaction can be, it sounds like a daunting task, it sounds like a lot of thinking. I definitely agree with the thoughts that are put out there. Andy, what you're describing sounds a lot like the ping pong table in the creative agency, right. You get this idea that people are playing ping pong all day, there's this casual environment, at least that's what I think about. And by no means do I feel like a curmudgeon about it, at least I don't think that I am. I don't feel any...

Andy I don't think you're a curmudgeon about anything, Satchell.

Satchell Yeah. I don't feel any cynical grip on it but I almost wonder... I'd like to believe that the internet like most other things has a series of movements where attitude shift over time but since we're a part of it all the time we don't really see it. And I guess there is a part of me that recently, wonders... And I open this up for anybody to answer. Have we progressed into a season where we're no longer over romanticizing things like that? Because I feel like social media in general has been around to a point where... And I've been taking it in long enough to a point where whenever I see the photo, I can't not see the person taking the photo as well.

Andy Taking it 40 times and getting the light just right.

Satchell And it makes me... No seriously. And not even in a way that's maddening or anything, but like, I understand that there is...

Andy You're not like an old man yells at cloud. You just know what goes into it right?

Satchell Right.

Andy Like you know it's a thing.

Satchell And with that in mind... You know in a lot of ways I wonder, if we are at a point where people are like willing to share mistakes more, because we are out of that movement of having this 100% on message all the time, media trained perspective on being personable with people. Which is actually the opposite of being personable with people.

Jen I would definitely agree with you. I love the idea of moving through seasons, as far as the way that we interact with each other and I do... And for me I feel like I notice when people are gearing towards optimism, or gearing towards, maybe not pessimism, but something more like realism or pragmatism. And I definitely feel like it's much more personable to be a little more real now, instead of having that perfect life and I think that's really cool. Of course, I do think that, sure you should be self-aware about what you post and what other people might read into it, but yeah you're right, a lot of the responsibility falls on to the viewer to then make assumptions on their own.

Matt When you frame it like that, it makes me think of the different... Like the different feeds I'm looking at and how they work based on the medium. If it's a visual medium, if it's Instagram or something, I'm trying to think of a time I've ever seen like a sad Instagram photo. Maybe it's a picture of a falling leaf or something you could like apply sadness to it. But it's all like, "I had a great meal. I went to a great party. I'm on a great vacation." Text based mediums, Facebook seems to be an okay place to share sadness sometimes.

Andy So someone can give you all the likes for your sad thing.

Laughter

Matt But when it's a visual medium it's like "Show everything that's great." Which makes me think, "Well maybe we are just doing that with our portfolios." You couldn't...

Andy Yeah.

Satchell Why would you bother preparing it if it were bad? The more effort it takes, the more it should be a great thing or a positive thing.

Jen Yeah, I agree. There was however something that I saw that just totally blew me away, just for how simple it was. And it was this young woman who was facing depression, and I really wish I could remember her name, but she started a hashtag called "This is What it Looks Like" and basically any time that she was feeling fully depressed, she just took a picture, whether it was things that she was looking at, of herself, something she was doing and she posted it to Instagram. And you could see in her feed, in her personal feed, her life went from "highlight reel" to "this is what it looks like" back to "highlight reel" back to "this is what it looks like." And it seemed like a real full personality. I just thought that was so impressive.

Andy That reminds me of something I saw today as well, I guess specifically in the design world. I saw someone link to a thing, it was some Fast Company or some whatever... Design website article about somebody asked a bunch of designers what their goals for 2016 were. And this was a thinly veiled way for a bunch of designers to announce new projects they were working on, or point people to the things they've done in the past and talk about their accomplishments. But right in the middle of it, Dylan Lathrop, who is a designer at BuzzFeed, someone I follow on Twitter for a long time, he wrote three or four beautiful, thoughtful, crushing paragraphs about his depression and how his goal for 2016 is to get better at living with himself. And it was such a perfect portrait of kind of the shallowness and the sort of... This kinda thing we're describing, right, the faux perfection of the design world. In the middle of these 50 tips for what people were gonna do to be more creative and how they were gonna grab the year by the reins, Dylan wrote a very human thing. It was just really amazing.

Andy And I've even seen some studies that have suggested that it might be the fact that graphic designers or illustrators, people in the creative industries disproportionately suffer from depression relative to the rest of the population. A higher percentage of people that work in this industry might deal with issues like that. And if that's the case, if that's the thing that we don't actually talk about publicly ever and we're too excited to share our beautiful portfolios and share our beautiful Instagrams we compose with our $60,000 art degrees, I think it's just an interesting relationship we have with the public eye.

Matt Yeah. That's... For whatever reason I'm not shocked by that. I have no idea why that makes sense, but for some reason it does. And I'm also trying to think of what are the actual negative pieces of the design community that show their face publicly and everything I think of is like a client from hell or something where...

Andy It's a thing that some people think is funny and it's actually...

Matt Sure.

Andy Airing out dirty laundry whether they know it or not.

Matt But I mean, it is airing our dirty laundry, but it's also... I'm calling it negative not because I don't like it, I have a distaste for it, I'm calling it negative because usually is negative stories about stuff. But it's never about... It's never the designer who has the problem. It's never an internal problem, it's always an external problem like, "Someone else is evil and they're trying to ruin my thing."

Satchell Right.

Matt Are there any examples of people actually turning in and like talking about the issues that they might have whether it be in work or personally, besides the one example you gave?

Laughter

Matt It would be... I mean, maybe it would be helpful...

Satchell Someone to be that vulnerable, yeah. [laughter]

Matt Just in the same way that it might be helpful to find out that your friends don't only go on vacation and they also have hardship.

Laughter

Andy Vacation all the time!

Jen I do think like... I feel very lucky to work in an office full of 20 other freelancers and when you see these people every day you're gonna have those real conversations. We couldn't pretend to have perfect lives around each other, we just know that we don't. And so I feel super lucky to have just honest conversations about pricing, clients, my energy levels, things that we might not talk about on Twitter as much but I do feel like... And this is coming back to the season idea, that we're starting to talk about real things more in the public eye.

Andy It's hard for me to tell if it's people actually changing and we're talking about it collectively more or if I've just unfollowed enough people that never shared anything other than their perfection and their new thing they were working on. Basically, I feel like I have a really good radar for when somebody's managing their Twitter as if they were a social media manager as opposed to a human being. So, I've unfollowed those people and so I can't really tell if it's actually a thing that's happening or if it's just confirmation bias. But, I want to come back to Neil Tyson actually. Jen you brought up Neil Tyson as an example of somebody who is a very accomplished scientist, certainly.

Andy I don't think anyone would argue he's the most accomplished scientist or that his accomplishments in science mirror his relative publicity, but I think a big part of what Neil Tyson is meant to do is his job is outreach, right? His job is we want to educate people about this, my whole thing is I'm going to talk about these things in a way that is approachable. I'm going to make a television series about these ideas and try to get people to invested and interested in it. Is that a thing that has any place in design at all or are we just off here doing our specialized thing and we don't need that at all?

Jen I think that we do it. I think whether we need it or not is a hard question to ask but I think... I'm looking at for instance Bruno Munari's children's books about design. I saw a children's book that was like CSS for Babies.

Laughter

Andy Oh no.

Satchell Oh my God.

Andy No babies, don't do it. Learn functional programming not CSS. Oh, anything but CSS.

Jen Well this may have been a few years ago and I obviously don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to programming languages, so forgive me. But I do think that there's certain technical things within the design industry that are attractive to "normal people" and by that, I mean just people who don't consider themselves to be creative or people who don't consider themselves to be professional creatives. There are parts of it, and this is why people like James Victoria for instance, can have a $6,000 dinner and have people who aren't graphic designers pay him $6,000 to have dinner with him.

Andy Yeah.

Jen There's something about his work though too that really speaks out to these average, normal people who are maybe not creative or maybe who want to be more creative, that when they see it on Instagram they just get it. And so I think that there's people like him. Debbie Millman's podcast for instance, I'm sure, appeals to people who aren't designers. There are bits of it that are kind of leaching out into the world.

Andy So, one of the reasons I want to bring that up is that, Jen, I think you nailed it. It's exactly what I was thinking. Whether we need it or not, we are all basically doing that more or less all the time. I feel like I run into designers often that are just very excited to tell you all about how what they do is very important and great and you should like it. Which is kind of like Neil Tyson's designated job. He is the one scientist that's doing that in astronomy or whatever and yet, all of us kind of do that in a small way whether we realize it or not.

Satchell TED talking.

Andy Satchell, I'm curious... Yeah, here we are at podcast talking about it. Satchell, I'm curious to know how you think about the work you do, specifically with the videos you make and... Do you see yourself as somebody that is trying to take the beauty and the things that are interesting and compelling to you about video games and bring that to the world in an ambassadorial way? Or do you consider yourself a journalist or author that is your medium happens to be videos. How do you conceive the work you do and your role in that?

Satchell I don't see myself as a journalist. I think journalists do a lot more work than I do and they're tasked with a lot more on average. So, I would feel like I'd be cheapening it by calling myself that. I think ambassadorial, that's a really good word because...

Andy I'm not even sure it's a real word but it's a word I just used, so there we go, it's on the books.

Satchell Hey, language is descriptive not prescriptive, we'll run with that.

Andy What up.

Laughter

Satchell I think that's a really good word because oftentimes I do feel like I'm evangelizing the potential that the medium has more frequently than anything else. And oftentimes, a lot of the feedback that I'll get is like, "Hey, we know this already, we know this already." And I think in my head when I think about that stuff, either for a case study or a podcast or whatever, I'm thinking yeah, I know I'm kinda going back over, breaking down, what these different parts of mechanics are for a game is. But part of it is 'cause it's really not for the scenies.

Jen It's not entirely for the people who are obsessed with games. But I do enjoy teaching people who may be on the fringe or maybe they played some games a little bit when they were younger or they see interesting titles coming out like Bioshock Infinite and they're like, "Hmm." It seems like there's something to the facet of interactivity that makes this small section of games that are like interactive films engaging or capable of talking about serious issues or complicated issues. And it's really cool taking that and running with it. Taking a lot of amazing things that books have done, that films have done and finding the analogous movements that are going on in games as well. So, in that way, I enjoy having compassion for a group of people that might not be interested in it, whenever I'm writing something. And I don't necessarily feel like I'm doing a good job at it, I'm not the oracle of taste at it. But I enjoy keeping those kinds of people in mind. Does that properly answer the question? Did I go all over the place?

Andy No, that's perfect. And next time you're on the show, I'm gonna introduce you as the perfect Oracle of Taste so prepare yourself for that. I guess I'm most interested in, do you have... It's very clear to me, at least it seems that someone like Neil Tyson, his goal is more people should be interested and aware of what's happening in this specialized industry I work in. Is that a thing that runs through your mind regularly? Do you make creative decisions on the idea that your goal is to educate and spread the word? Or are you just doing this thing 'cause you love it and you wanna celebrate it and be excited about it?

Satchell I don't think there's a plan. [chuckle] That would be cool if I had a plan. That'd be awesome. I think it's more like, "Oh hey. Look at this. This is cool." [chuckle] "Guys? Guys?" [chuckle]

Andy So did others, did you three also have that moment, or maybe you're still in it. I'm curious to know what your relationship is with attaching your eyeballs and brains to the firehose of blogs and people on Twitter and whatever content producers are making the stuff that you consider to be like industry stuff. Is that something that you all still are really involved in or you're never really involved in? 'Cause I very clearly had that moment where I thought it was really important to me. I feel like I was probably in a part of my life where I was developing my taste.

Andy I didn't really know what I liked or didn't like so I went to look at tons of things to start to form the boundaries of my opinions and values. And then at some point, I just decided that none of it was deep enough for what I was thinking about. Which sounds really elite and weird but design blogs are I think, necessarily, lots of posts that are pretty short. Usually just look at these cool images of stuff. And at some point I just got tired of that and broke from it. Do you all have... Matt, what's your relationship with this stuff? Did you have a similar story or did you never really get into it deep or how did that work for you?

Matt No, I was really, really into it deep. Especially in college and early, first couple of years of working where I felt like, "I have to absorb everything because this is the thing I want." Actually, you know what the key was, when it wasn't my life yet, I really felt like I had to dig into it because I really wanted it to become my life. And then when I was doing it constantly, when it was my job, when it was every part of my day, I got really comfortable with detaching 'cause I didn't have to prove anything to anybody. I was just doing it. Isn't that kinda that line...

Andy Because you had the business card.

Satchell There is, there is.

Chuckle

Matt Yeah. But isn't there that line would be like, you really wanna do something so you'd put all your power into making it happen and then there's just a day where you're just doing it. And you're like, "Oh. Who am I proving anything to? I'm just doing the thing I wanted to do." And I don't even know if it's like I'm doing the thing I wanted to do and it's great. It just is now and the way I was acting before was because I wasn't a part of it. And then it felt more comfortably like I don't have to follow 10 million blogs and look at every single piece of packaging that was ever designed.

Andy And Dribbble all the things, all the time.

Matt I can just continue making the things that I wanted to make and that was the whole point anyway. I don't know why it seemed almost like, you lost your way for a while and now you're back to why you started doing it.

Andy I do often wonder where I found the time to... I remember waking up every morning on a week day morning and my Google Reader would be like 180 things and I'd be like, "All right! Time to see them all." And hit that J key, J, J, J, J, J.

Satchell That's amazing. Nice.

Andy [33:28] ____ all the things. I also remember feeling this profound pressure to be part of that. Do the same thing, have a website, submit stuff to blogs. Try and get on there. That was somehow... There was definitely a huge part in my life where that to me was a way better validation that I was progressing as a graphic designer than getting good grades in my courses and even then doing work that I felt to myself was valuable work. It was like, "If I can get this external validation, that means I'm doing it right and I'm progressing and moving forward."

Matt Was it because you needed someone to tell you, you were indeed a graphic designer? You weren't so sure yet?

Andy I don't know. I don't know what it was. But there was something there. Really because there's so much... When you do follow 70 blogs and you see hundreds of things everyday, you start to feel like everybody out there is making great work and getting it put on blogs and so why aren't you? And if you're not, you must be broken in some way.

Matt Someone tell me I'm real. Will somebody just tell me I'm a real person?

Laughter

Andy Yeah, I don't know if it was... Maybe it was that pathetic and I just really needed that kind of validation from something external to myself, but I don't know what it was. But I think that pressure is real and I think it's probably morphed now. 'Cause I get the sense that design blogs like that are not... This was me and also most of my peers in the design program. It wasn't like I was a weird one. Everybody felt a pressure to read all the Google Reader things and follow all the blogs. I feel like that's changed a little bit or at least fallen off from the small exposure I do have to students these days but I feel like that pressure is still something that's there.

Andy It's like you need to be... I guess what I'm getting at is it feels like there was a need to be a public character. If my work was not online, am I even a designer? Honestly, I feel that a little bit right now. I haven't had a portfolio for myself online in four years and sometimes, I get the sense that [chuckle], "Am I a designer as far as the world is concerned? If I just never Tweet about design and I never post any design work online? Or am I just a weird person?" Which, of course, I'm just a weird person, that's confirmed.

Satchell Or a man who designs.

Andy Yes.

Satchell Which is a pretty accurate description.

Matt But is there also the sense that... For me at least, there's some sort of idea that maybe I was gonna find the truth or maybe I was gonna find the right way to do everything. And then it became very clear that doesn't exist so might as well do the thing you wanted to do anyway.

Andy And stop looking?

Matt Yeah. I mean, not that you stop trying.

Andy You've stagnated, man. You've changed. What happened to you?

Matt You never stop trying. It's just that you're a little bit more free to do what you wanna do as opposed to be like, "There's some rule out there that if I discover it I'm gonna be better at everything and I'm gonna be doing it the right way."

Andy And I'm curious to know from you, specifically Jen, because there's a practical reason why our industry is a visible one, because lots of us are freelancers, right? There's a real benefit to having those Twitter followers, Instagram followers, whatever it is, because that can sometimes turn into work or at least validation from a client you can point to these things and kind of demonstrate that you are a real professional that does this thing for real. Jen, as a freelancer, what is your relationship with this kind of stuff? Do you try and get your work on blogs? Do you think that leads to work? Do you think that having an Instagram account with lots of followers that are excited to see your lettering is something that helps you professionally? Or is that a non-issue?

Jen Yeah, that is such a valid observation. It's just part of the game now. As a freelancer, that's better self-promotion than any postcard could ever be. So in the illustration department when I was going to school the mindset was like, "Send out 500 postcards, maybe get five jobs." And now it's like if you post 500 Instagrams, you're probably gonna get like a hundred jobs.

Laughter

Jen It's almost a little bit easier to be a fully rounded human being now on the internet because there are multiple outlets for someone like me, who's looking for work, looking for friends, to kind of put myself out there and find contact points there. I honestly haven't done any self-promotion in years and I think maybe part of it is me being naïve and being like, "Oh, I don't need to get all network-y about all this stuff." But I think part of it is also just that I'm the type of person who's never had a problem with expressing myself on the internet and now, finally, the rest of the world's finally like caught up, right?

Laughter

Jen So I'm not alone on Instant Messenger anymore. The whole world is with me up on Twitter. So I think that there's two factors here, that listening to you all speak about this, is that sure one, there's self-confidence. And Matt, you were talking about this idea of like wanting this to be your life and so you just take it all in. And I think we've all been there, I hope we've all been there, because that's passion, right?

Matt Yeah.

Jen But then there's self-confidence which comes along with experience. And there's that Ira Glass idea of being patient because your taste is always going to be better than your talent for like the first few years...

Satchell Oh right, the gap.

Andy Or forever.

Jen Of making creative work.

Andy It's forever, right? Is this supposed to catch up, 'cause mine hasn't caught up.

Laughter

Satchell Or forever.

Jen But at some point, hopefully, you catch up and that's where the self-confidence comes and you're like, "I don't need to take in all of this media anymore to give myself something to strive for, because I'm confident in my profession and my talent." But then also I do feel like there's an observation of the industry as a whole and a lot of this might come from the blogs just kind of disappearing after Google Reader screwed everyone over.

Chuckle

Jen And then there was actually like a massive shift in blogging, not just for designers but for all bloggers. And Grace Bonney talks about this really eloquently. But advertising, so she was able to make a living off of advertising and then the advertisers changed their business model to be more about promoted posts. And so bloggers like her, who were really careful about the content that she creates, suddenly can't make a living. So a lot of blogs disappeared at that point. Luckily she's still making fantastic content and some great blogs have made it through but there's just less content like what we were consuming when we were all less confident designers, I think.

Andy So... And I think you touch on some really good points there, Jen. It's worth noting you do post a lot of your work on Instagram, like a lot of beautiful... Your lettering work or you paint on a motorcycle helmet or leather jacket. Jen's work is great, you should all go look at it. But also in the middle of that, there is pictures of Winston's very dumb face and he's just chilling.

Laughter

Jen He's so cute.

Andy It's not like that is strictly an advertising mechanism for your work, like you said it's a reflection of you and what you're doing. And sometimes that's your design work and sometimes that's a cat and sometimes it's something else.

Jen Yeah. Oh gosh, yes. And I actually feel like there are people, especially within my industry of hand lettering, which is a small industry within graphic design and art as a whole, who are very, very tactful about the things that they post and the way that they post and how often they post. And to be honest, to me, sure it pays off because they have a ton of followers and seem to be happy with that. But for me, I feel like that is not quite giving the people who follow me the respect that they deserve. The intelligence to see through that kind of tactfulness that just is so desperate for followers. And for me it's like, "If you don't want to see pictures of my cat then like, hey, why are we even doing this?"

Andy Take a hike. Pack your bags and move away.

Jen Yeah, man. C'mon.

Satchell Right.

Jen He's cute.

Andy So Jen, here's what I want to know from you. So it sounds like it has been a very important part of your business, your freelance business, establishing your place in the industry, which is kind of what this whole episode is about, right? This idea that you need to have some kind of public thing. No longer is it postcards, now you have some kind of outward presentation of you and your work, and it seems like it's really important in freelancing and I think it kinda bleeds out into people that are not freelancing either, that still feel this kind of pressure to do that. So I guess my question for you is, what would your advice be to a student? Somebody that... Their work is something they know is not, again like you said, their taste is well beyond their work but they also know that if they're ever gonna work in this industry and be a freelancer or be the kind of designer that you are, for example, this is gonna be something that's important to them.

Andy At what point do you start doing all this posting of your work? Is it something that you should be doing constantly as you're learning, is it something that you get to a point and you're like, "Alright now it's good enough, I'm gonna start putting it up there." How would you advise somebody in that position?

Jen Sure, first off I would love to hear from younger people in general, whether they're designers or not, because the more younger people I meet, the more fascinated I become with social media whether they have latched onto it or completely decided not to. But regardless I feel like for me, the social media thing, the posting online thing, like I said earlier, is something that comes naturally to me. Ever since I was 13, I started putting my really bad art on the internet and it's still there. [laughter]

Andy What up DeviantArt.

Jen Oh my god, it's bad.

Satchell Oh god.

Jen It is still there. If you wanted to find it, you could. And that's just because I was so desperately craved the sense of community that I have now, as a kid. And you know, a lot of kids growing up in suburbia are like that. But, the thing I really wanna stress is that's just me, and if this doesn't come naturally to someone, then they shouldn't do it if they feel uncomfortable putting things on the internet, then they definitely shouldn't do it. There are other ways around it. And I feel like I would never tell a young student that they have to be on Instagram, but if there's someone who would enjoy and get something out of it, then they definitely should because it is truly a very valuable source of self-promotion. There are so many art directors on Instagram who have hired me the next day because I posted something the day before.

Andy Wow. So real talk, do you think that a student that is maybe just not inclined to do that naturally, do you think that their career will be suffering? I appreciate your understanding that this is not for everybody necessarily. You're excited to do that, you're excited to share yourself with the world. If somebody is not excited about that and you're saying, you know, "Don't do it if you're not willing to," does that make it harder to be a professional illustrator, designer, hand letterer, whatever it is?

Jen Yes.

Andy Yeah.

Jen There's just no getting around it. And I'm someone who came from fine art, really. Fine art is what I studied, fine art was the world that I was fully immersed in...

Andy You switched majors what, like five times in school?

Laughter

Jen No actually, so I had a weird situation where I was fully prepared to go out in the world as a fine artist and then I switched my major second semester of senior year to illustration.

Andy Yeah two weeks before graduating, you're like, "No, I want something different on that piece of paper."

Jen Yeah, basically what happened for me is I had two thesis, there were two clear paths that I could have taken. I had a body of fine artwork, and I had a body of hand-lettered, screen-printed posters and I guess you can imagine which one I took. [laughter] And I'm glad I did. But I feel like the tool of social media, of posting your work online, is just too valuable that if you do want to have the success of the illustrators that you're seeing online or of the designers that you're seeing online, you're just gonna have to do it. That's just part of the game now.

Andy Maybe that's what this all comes down to. Maybe these tools that we've built to interact as human beings, right, like Twitter and Instagram, don't really exist primarily as a method of advertising. I mean I guess when you really get down to it, primarily they do because that's how they both make all their money. But the idea for the average user is not that this is going to be some kind of publishing platform, it's that you're going to share your life with people. Maybe these tools, because they've become so embedded in our daily lives, have basically advantaged people that happen to be very good at them and very natural sharers of things to be more inclined to, or more advantaged to move into industries like the visual arts. Maybe that's what this is all comes down to, just that simple transactional thing of like, "People will see your work, they will hire you, you will be better at this," and then that cycle kind of propagates itself. It's interesting 'cause it's way different than sending out postcards, right? You don't need to be a...

Satchell Do people legit do that still?

Jen Oh yeah. Yes.

Satchell Not that there's anything wrong with it. [laughter]

Jen That's what I'm saying is that in the illustration department, in the illustration industry and still today, that is the bottom... That's the default. Is sending postcards, is sending mailers, is doing it the long, hard, stupid way. Just because, it's not effective. [chuckle] An art director stands over their trash can with a pile of postcards, and just one by one goes through 'em, toss 'em in, and maybe we'll keep like, three.

Satchell See, that's what should go on Instagram.

Jen Right. [laughter]

Andy A trash can full of postcards. [laughter] That'd be such a good account.

Jen I feel like if an art director can see an illustrator as a full, rounded human person, it's going to be easier for them to give the illustrator jobs that are right for them and to work together. And so I feel like the opportunity of sharing your personality online is just so great, that if it's something you're comfortable doing, there's just too many benefits to not be active.

Andy Yeah, I guess the thing I'm really curious about and interested in, is just how that changes what we perceive to be a successful designer or illustrator. Prior to this, you could be successful if you just were very quiet and introverted and you sent your postcards out and you got hired by the New York Times, you got hired by the Washington Post, you do your illustrations, and that was your thing. And now, it seems like it's harder to be that quiet, introverted, more private person and still succeed in the same way.

Matt You could still go work for a company...

Laughter

Andy You could just hang up your dreams and go do something totally different.

Matt No, no, no, you could work for a branding agency, an ad agency, there's another way to do it. I think we're talking specifically about if you want to freelance or maybe start your own company or something like that.

Andy Well, except, for some people that is their goal. Their goal is that they don't want to work for a company.

Matt There's nothing wrong with that goal! That's a cool goal too. I don't think there's one that's better than the other one, but I think it's maybe that this is a specific thing.

Andy Well but if someone has got one... Yeah.

Satchell But when could you freelance in a vacuum?

Jen Exactly.

Satchell And not put yourself out there?

Matt That's actually kind of what I'm wondering.

Satchell Before social networks you always had to do that.

Matt Well, that's what the postcards were.

Andy No, it's true. It's true. I just wonder if the nature of the putting yourself out there has changed and the audiences have scaled up right? Because before if you were student, you...

Matt I think it's that. I think there's more eyeballs.

Satchell I'd say it's easier because you just get to do it from your bedroom.

Jen Mm-hmm.

Satchell You just get to be you inside. And then other people get to look into you. You're kind of like this thing to be seen and taken in and you get to do that in your pajamas and it's all good. So I'd say for the introverts, the introverts win.

Andy Take me in, in my pajamas!

Satchell I mean the introverts win with the internet.

Matt Yeah, I don't think you have to be an extrovert to be a public figure on the internet. I think that's actually very, very proven.

Andy Well, maybe it's the wrong word, but it's a different thing. I do think some people are just not inclined to share their lives on the internet and maybe that's different than being introverted or extroverted, but...

Jen Yes, it is different.

Satchell Yeah. Yeah, it is different.

Andy But there's something there. Maybe we need a new word for that like "internetroverted" or whatever.

Laughter

Jen A hermit.

Satchell I say locally geared.

Jen Aw.

Satchell Just local.

Jen Local to my bed.

Andy Matt, you're the only one who didn't really say anything in the end. Do you want to close out with something? Satchell got something in, Jen got something in...

Matt Oh, actually, I stick with my point that I think... I was just wanting to make the counter argument that I don't think that is the only way to go in life. If you're a designer you have to be the lone wolf who makes it on his own and...

Andy Oh no, my point is that some people, their goal going through all of art school or going through all of however they trained is they want to be an editorial illustrator and they wanna freelance and work for all the big publications or they wanna be...

Jen I love how Andy, you're like, "Hey Matt, do you have anything to say? Hey! Wait! Hang on! No!"

Laughter

Andy I'm used to talking over Matt. We've done this for a long time.

Matt We're okay with it.

Laughter

Matt Well, if that's the case Andy, I think Jen is right. I think then, yeah tough luck. You gotta do it and you gotta put yourself out there.

Laughter

Andy Alright, I'll be quiet and you can say your thing.

Laughter

Matt No. No, I don't think I need a closing statement. I think that's pretty good. If there's anyone, it's just, it's not super shocking to me that people whose job it is to make visuals are suddenly thriving in a visual medium and finding ways to make it work for them. I think there are parts of it that can be a little bit dangerous and a little bit scary when everybody just thinks the life you're supposed to lead is a perfect one and there's never any problems and all your work comes out great and all your clients are perfect. But I do agree, that I think we're shifting into being... You're just living the same life on the internet that you're living in real life because there's not a whole lot of separation anymore. And so maybe it just won't be a problem as much because everybody will just feel more free online, 'cause they were raised that way. There's just no other way to be. You don't have an option.

Music

Matt You can follow us on Twitter @WorkingFile.

Andy We've got a website with bios of all of our contributors at workingfile.co.

Matt And if you haven't subscribed, you can subscribe on iTunes with an RSS feed. And if you like the show, review us on iTunes. Give us a good review.

Andy Gotta give us those five stars. That's what we feed on.

Matt Not interested in one stars.

Music

Satchell Oh my god, your cat. Is that your cat, that's fluffy like that?

Jen Yes! Isn't he cute?

Satchell Oh my gosh. I can't even with that.

Laughter

Jen Isn't he the best?

Laughter

Satchell Its eyes are so blue!

Jen Oh, he's so cute. And guess what? He loves when I kiss him right on his lips.

Laughter

Satchell Dude, it's like the cartoon of a captain.

Andy He looks like a muppet.

Satchell A captain's beard! A captain's beard. That's like a captain's beard underneath it's... Okay, sorry, sorry Andy! You're saying something profound.

Andy Also, Satchell, you should hear his meow. He has the most pathetic, horrible meow, where he just goes like [52:10] ____.

Laughter

Jen Yeah, it's the best. It's great.