The actress, mental health activist and author ( Out Came the Sun: Overcoming the Legacy of Mental Illness, Addiction and Suicide in My Family ) and granddaughter of writer Ernest Hemingway shares about the him, her family, acting, generational trauma, mental illness, addiction/alcoholism and dysfunction and how she has learned to deal with her codependence and fear of letting go especially thru her relationships, nature, supplements and lesser-known therapies.

Episode notes:



More About Our Guest:

www.Twitter.com/MarielHemingway

www.MarielHemingway.com

and Mariel.primemybody.com a site dedicated to hemp oil and detox which has been a game changer for her

Also watch the Emmy-nominated documentary about her family Running From Crazy and buy her book Out Came the Sun: Overcoming the Legacy of Mental Illness, Addiction and Suicide in My Family

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Tix for the live podcast recording at Sisyphus Brewing in Minneapolis on Sat Oct 13th

1st show 5pm with guest comedian Kjell Bjorgen

https://dojour.us/e/9291

2nd show 8pm with return guest Nora McInerney (host of Terrible Thanks For Asking)

https://dojour.us/e/9292

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 403 with my guest, Mariel Hemingway. Minneapolis, I am coming next weekend to do two live shows, uh, Saturday, October 13th, at Sisyphus Brewing. Five o'clock show with comedian, Kjell Bjorgen, and … 8 o'clock show with returned guest, Nora McInernery. Nora is the host of Terrible, Thanks for Asking. I'll put the links to all of, uh, the info and how to get tickets. Again, next Saturday, October 13th, in Minneapolis. I'm Paul Gilmartin; this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I am not a therapist, uh, it's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The web site for this show is mentalpod.com; mentalpod is also the, uh, the handles that you can follow me at on social media.

[00:01:02] Got some interesting, uh, emails, uh, the week from, from people and, I wanted to try to cram all the stuff in, uh, for this week's show. But I have to be realistic, and so I’m just gonna give some summaries of, uh, some of the stuff that I wanted to share with you guys, be it an email or a, uh, or a survey.

[00:01:29] I got an email from "Audra," who, um, whose father, uh, used to punish her by locking her in the dark for hours, and she wasn't allowed to move or sit on the floor. And if she cried, um, she was giving, given more punishment time. And she wanted to know if she thinks it has harmed her psychologically, or could be called abuse, uh, because she feels that she's making too big of a deal about it. And … (sighs) man. That, that's is so clearly abusive, and if authorities were notified that a parent was treating a child that way, um, child protective services would be dispatched and, uh … Did I say dispatched (chuckles)? They would take the patch away (chuckles). Cuz kids are on the nicotine patch and … you know, a lot of times, by the time they're five or six, they've just … The emphysema sets in and they gotta get on the patch. But then, by second grade, they're like, "This is ridiculous. I'm so wound up on the playground. I need to do something (chuckles)." And so child protective services comes in and removes their nicotine patch (chuckles). But, I, I wrote Audra back and said you are absolutely not making too big of a deal, uh, out of this. That is horrifying, and, um … uh … It's amazing the ways that we will minimize the stuff that happened to us. But if we … hear of it happening to somebody else, then we can have objectivity about it.

[00:03:25] "Eric" sent me an email. He took exception to the interview I had with James Murray, uh, who had extolled the benefits of taking ayahuasca. And, uh, he … Eric has a son who had a psychotic break from ayahuasca and has yet to recover, and uh, Eric insists that they are many more people like his son. And he begged me not to promote its use, uh, even though some say that it has helped them. And, when James shared, uh, his positive experience with it, I said I have no personal experience with it, so I can't say one way or the other. But the one thing I, I want this show to be is an open discussion of people's experiences, not to be an authority on something. I'll give my opinion sometimes about, about stuff. But, I don’t feel informed enough to make any kind of opinion. And I thought it was important to read Eric's thoughts, um, so that I can present, uh, you know, as thorough a picture, uh, as, as I can.

[00:04:41] "Julie" from California, uh, emailed me with a beautiful, uh, success story of, uh, recovering from her childhood sexual abuse. She found, uh, we mentioned a lot of times the Rape and Incest National Network is a great place, uh, and the web site is rain.org. And it is a great resource for getting free or low-fee counseling. If you have ever experienced any kind of, uh, sexual, um, assault or trauma, uh, no matter how far back it, it happened. And, she had just completed her … weekly trauma therapy; she'd been going every week for two years. And, uh, I guess she was going to the Peace Over Violence Center, and she is changing and healing. And I, I love hearing that.

[00:05:38] I got an email from "Sophia." Actually, it was a, it was a survey, uh, from Sophia, who was feeling … anxious, depressed, angry, bloated, tired, and she … went to see a naturopath—I think some somebody had recommended it to her—and was diagnosed as having a fungal overgrowth in her gut. And, lo and behold, uh, got her, they got her on a regimen on how she ate, and, I think, taking supplements and stuff like that, and natural things. And, um, sh—her gut is healing. And her mood is, uh, so much better. And I'm a big believer in … the connection between the gut and mood. And there's a book called "The Body Ecology Diet," which really, really helped me. I tried to go off my meds after I healed my gut doing that book. But, I needed to go back on them, uh, when I obsessively thought about suicide (chuckles); I was like, "Okay (chuckles). I guess I needed to heal my gut and still take my meds." And at the end of her, her survey, she wanted to know how I uh—I was DOING with, um … the morning of Herbert, my beloved little dog that, uh, that died about, uh, I dunno, a year and three months ago. It's getting better. I, I, uh … it, it doesn't, uh, feel like a punch in my stomach to … realize that, that he's gone. We had him for about 12 years, and he was just such a fucking character. And a big part of this show: the talking about him and his personality and his butthole and all kinds of shit. But, um, my ex has a, uh, puppy named Grady (sp.) who I go visit, uh, when I go visit Ivy, who is the dog that we still share. And, uh, there's just something about being around a puppy. And they're … just that positive attitude and that excitement and the affection. It just, it … it's one of the ways I treat my depression. There's a shitload of ways that I do it, but that's, that's one of them. But thank you for asking.

[00:07:51] And then I just want to reads two surveys. This first one is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Sorry if This is TMI." No, if there is a place for TMI, this show is it. She writes, "I woke up one morning and for the life of me, I couldn't remember if I had removed or changed my tampon the night before (I'd had a few drinks). I quickly dashed to the bathroom to change it, in fear of getting toxic shock syndrome for having a tampon in for over eight hours. But there was no string. I panicked. I didn't want to put another one in, for fear that my body had sucked up that one and it would be stuck in me forever." I think the term for that is it, it went yo-yo on you. "So (chuckles) I tried to live another day. But I struggle with anxiety, and I couldn’t focus all afternoon and I was super-fidgety. My fiancé noticed my rapidly drumming fingers and disjointed thoughts and asked what was wrong. After a lot of trying to change the subject and blushing, I finally told him. He chuckled and then asked if I wanted him to check and he could see (Paul backtracks) … and see if he could find it or not. Well, if that's not mortifying, but also a true symbol of love, I don't know what is." That is beautiful, and what a perfect awfulsome moment. And just, in the future, if you're having trouble finding your tampon, I don’t know if this is … will work, but the thought occurred to me is, get, uh, go to Home Depot, get a stud finder, put it on the lightest setting, and then just move it around your area. And if you hear something beep, investigate.

[00:09:35] And then this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman, uh, who calls herself "Am I a Good Enough Mother." And she writes, "I just recently started to listen to your podcast and have fallen in love with it. I seriously cannot get enough. I'm in my early 30s. Married and a mother of three. My mother was barely 21 years old when she had me. Had the sense of a 16-tear-old, and by biological father was 26 years old, and neither of them graduated high school. My mom quickly learned that her relationship with my dad would not last. He was a narcissistic, alcoholic drug addict, and was abusive in every way, and left him when I was two years old. My dad responded with trying to kidnap me multiple times, while high on crack. One of his attempts was him taking my mother and I (I was three to four years old; I remember bits and parts of this) in her car, and he was high, and he pulled over and dragged her out of the car, and beat her head into a chain-linked fence, with me in the back seat watching, and then ran off, I believe, because someone must have called the cops, and they showed up shortly after. This was my first time in the back of a cop car. The funniest time was seeing him sneak into my grandmother's bathroom window and going into my room and taking me out of my bed and running down the street with me in his arms. I was about two years old. And my grandmother, in her bra and granny panties, standing in the road, shooting at him with a shotgun. No one was hurt. I was told this story by my grandmother, my mother, AND my father. My father then runs into an apartment complex (this took place in Fresno, CA, in 1988, so it was a decent-sized town), and someone asks my dad, 'Is someone shooting off a gun?' My dad replies, 'Yes. That's my mother-in-law shooting at me.' And then takes off. Not sure what happened after this, but I imagine the cops came. This was when one of the many crazy, fucked-up things that happened in my childhood. Fast forward about seven, eight years, and my mom chose another winner who I refer to as 'Stepdad,' but never called 'Stepdad,' because the one time I did, he told me I only said the because he did something nice for me. Another narcissistic, abusive asshole, minus the street drugs—not so, much alcohol. Add in valium and probably other prescription drugs. My stepdad controlled every aspect of my mom's life, and our house was filled with tension, screaming, and broken windows and doors. We moved constantly, mooched off of whoever we could, and at times lived in motels. I hated being home so much that as much as I missed my mother, I chose to stay and, at time, live with my grandparents or my aunt. Thankfully, I was only a child, and I had two stepbrothers who rarely came to visit, because they, too, hated their father. One summer, which was for some reason, which for some reason seemed to be when my parents fought the most, probably due to the fact most of the fights were about me and school was out and my stepdad was jealous of my mom's love for me and wanted my mom all to himself. My parents had been arguing for days, and my stepdad would lock me outside during these times, or times when my parents would fuck loudly and were not discreet. And I would wander around our acre yard, playing with rocks and sticks. We didn't have a working phone at the time, and would walk to the neighbor next door or other neighbors a quarter-mile down the road to use the phone to call my grandmother to come get me. I left two to three voicemails over a span of a few hours, begging her to come get me because my mother and stepdad were having a really bad fight, and I did not want to be there anymore. My grandparents on my mother side were avid drinkers—the kind who use Bailey's as their coffee creamer. And my grandpa always had to have a road beer, so when the showed up around 2 p.m., feeling pretty good, I was not surprised. And yes, this is the grandmother who ran down the street I her bra and panties with a shotgun. But this time, they were carrying a handgun. But don't worry, it isn't loaded, is what they whispered to me when they showed me what they had brought when they came to my rescue. I proceeded to scream and freak out, and then my grandpa put his hand over my mouth and reassured me they weren’t going to shot my stepdad; just scare him. My mom comes outside and in their drunken state do the same to her. Do a little peek-a-boo with the crumpled-up paper bag in grandfather's hand and calmly explain they just want to threaten the dickhead inside and encouraged my mom to take this and that and let's go. Next thing I know, my grandpa and mom are wrestling on the ground for the gun, and my mom's long dress is going up, and she has no underwear on. And it becomes a Jerry Springer Show in my front yard. I run to the neighbors next door to call 911, cuz I was nine years old and didn’t know what to do. I come back, and through the front window of our house, my stepdad is leaning out the window and grabbing the gun out of my grandpa's hand and they are fighting over it. My mom screams and tell then she doesn’t want them to go to jail and to leave. Finally, this stops, and my grandparents calmly look at me and say, 'Well, are you coming with us?' And my mom looks at me, as if she was saying it's okay if I do. And I reply, 'No. I think you guys drank a little much. If it's okay, I’ll stay here.'"

Intro

[00:16:16] Paul: I'm here with Mariel Hemingway. For people who have lived under a rock, um, Mariel is an actress and author. She did a documentary, uh, on the history of … what'd you call it? Dysfunction, mental illness in your, in your family?

Mariel: Addiction, mental illness, depression—

Paul: Yeah. It's funny, cuz you can’t separate any—it's all a big, tangled bowl of spaghetti.

Mariel: (Laughs)

Paul: And, um, uh … Her grandfather is, uh, Ernest Hemingway. And, um … I guess he wrote a couple books.

Mariel: Just a few.

Paul: He, he liked to fiddle—

Mariel: Yeah, you know—

Paul: --on the typewriter?

Mariel: (Chuckles) Exactly.

Paul: (chuckles) Where do we begin with, with your story? You know what? (stumbles on words) What … were his parents like? Your grandfa—

Mariel: Ernest, Ernest's parents. Interesting you should ask that, cuz I'm such a believer that, you know, we, we unfold based on where we come from. His mother was a very religious, um, kind of puritanical woman. They lived outside of Illi—Chicago, Illinois. And … and she—

Paul: Oh, he's from Oak Park, right?

Mariel: Yeah. Yeah. So he, uh, she was just hard. She was a difficult woman: very challenging, just that, that sort of, you know … it was kind of (chuckles) the Victorian age, even though they, we weren’t in England. But there was something about the way she just set things up. She was just, uh … from what I can … glean from what you read is that she was a very intense woman and very judgmental of my grandfather, Ernest. His father was a doctor. His father also committed suicide. So … it was just—

Paul: How, how, how old was, uh, his, his father when he—

Mariel: He was in his 20s, I think—

Paul: Wow!

Mariel: So he was—yeah.

Paul: So, he never really knew his father very well, did he?

Mariel: Oh no, no, no! His … no, his … he was …

Paul: Oh, Ernest was in his 20s—

Mariel: Ernest was in, in his 20s when his father took his life.

Paul: Okay.

Mariel: I could have that wrong. I think that's … god! I think that's the case. And, he, uh—so, anyway, parents very strict and … you know, intense and … according to (chuckles) people that have done biographies on my grandfather—and you can see it in the pictures. She dressed him like a little girl for a long time. Now, part of that was that time, you know, they, they put the … sort of dresses on little people (laughs) when they were small. But it deeply affected him, and he as … he just was angry at her forever. So, yeah, that's as much as I really know about the two of them.

Paul: Did he have siblings?

Mariel: He did. He had a brother, Lester, and a sister, Sunny, um, whom … I, I, and there might be another sibling. Gosh, that's sad. I think that's just the two (chuckles).

Paul: (chuckles)

Mariel: Good lord! Um, anyway—

Paul: Yeah, back there in that time, it's like one, one fell out of the window—

Mariel: (Laughs) Right?

Paul: —nine died at childbirth.

Mariel: (Laughs) Yeah, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel: Anyway. So, uh, yeah, so it was, you know, they had their family. And I didn’t—I, I think I met Sunny once, when I was very, very, very young. I never met Lester; he also took his life. So …

Paul: Wow.

Mariel: A lot of that going around in my family (laughs).

Paul: Then, um … your parents.

Mariel: My Parents. So, my mother's a native Idahoan, which is where I spend a great deal of my time; I grew up there. Um—

Paul: Actually, before we do that, let's, let's rewind. I just wanna talk a little bit more about, uh, your, your grandfather.

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: How do you believe, um … his upbringing affected him? Was, was, he, uh … would you say an alcoholic?

Mariel: Oh, yeah. Most definitely. And, you know, I think it was a different time, so people drank. You know, that was part of the thing, and that's also what became part of his, his folklore. That became part of his story, is the, the man that drank and lived life big and all that stuff. But, what it started to do was, just, you know, like addiction does. It weighed heavily on his, on his mental state at all times. Putting in a depressant in, in a person who is … probably would now be diagnosed bipolar, um, I would think, cuz he had manic highs and, you know, and then—But, the alcohol—and I'm a big believer that addiction is a, is a real instrument to, you know, igniting that sort of … mental distress—

Paul: Absolutely.

Mariel: —that happens.

Paul: Like, when you feel dead inside … whatever makes you feel alive—even if the repercussions are terrible—it is, it seems like, at the time, like a better choice—

Mariel: Yeah

Paul: —than walking around feeling dead inside.

Mariel: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, so I understood that. But it started very early on. And, again, in a time when people didn’t think that alcohol was an issue for anybody. I mean it just—

Paul: Especially when you're an author with bravado—

Mariel: Oh my god—

Paul: —and a risk taker.

Mariel: And I also think that my grandfather created that, that, you know, bravado. Created that—I, I, I think he changed the way American, uh, writers wrote. You know, they, everybody wanted to be a Hemingway-esque character. They wanted to drink a lot and live a (stumbles on words), you know, larger-than-life life. So, he, he, um, he did that; so he was self-medicating. I'm absolutely convinced that he was, you know—I think probably very early on, cuz, uh, I know that my grandmother, who was a, an incredible woman, who loved his desperately, and, and he loved her. But he was a challenge; he was a difficult man.

Paul: I mean, how—

Mariel: —even when he was in his 20s.

Paul: How could he … have the capacity to be intimate with the relationship he had with his mother? I mean—

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: —the amount of fear of being vulnerable and being tender must have been overwhelming.

Mariel: Yeah. I think that … (stumbles on words) and also, she just, she was so judgmental and thought that he was—that, that what he wrote was disgusting. I mean, she wrote letters that were just, vile! She thought he was absolutely just, like, part of the—he was on the devil's, you know—

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel: —roster. He was just, he was doing … just horrible things in her mind. And that just … accentuated his need to be … to, to be big, to be boisterous, to be, to talk, to live the life … And I'm sure it's why he left my grandmother. Not because he didn't love her. But because it was like defiling everything that he was brought up to believe about marriage, about this, about that. And, um … so, yeah. He was, he, he really struggled with having the ability to be … to be vulnerable.

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel: Although … if you re-, if you really are a … a reader of my grandfather's works, you could see that he, he really … I mean, there was a sensitivity in him that was extraordinary. And an ability to see women—I think he's misinterpreted a lot. He has in, throughout time, as being, you know, nothing but machismo, nothing but … But he wasn't. If you see his female characters, Lady Brett in, in "The Sun Also Rises." I mean, women with tremendous power and, and heart. He created women that I think he wished his mother to be, you know? And, and he was with strong women; he was with women that had incredible brains and, and, and really vibrant … women in his life. So, I … it wasn't that he lacked an ability to be vulnerable. It just, it, it, it, he couldn't show that to the whole world—

Paul: Outside of the typewriter, it was hard for, for him.

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: Which is fitting of so many artists, is, is through their art they … can, to have the voice that they long to have—

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: —in, in real life, cuz it's safe.

Mariel: 100 percent.

Paul: And you could say, "Oh, it's my character," you know. Or, it's, it's this.

Mariel: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: I mean, you know, you're, you're an actor.

Mariel: Yeah! Yeah.

Paul: And, I'm sure you have experienced moments … in movies, where you say things that you wish you could say in real life or do in real life. Are there any that come to mind?

Mariel: You know, it's interesting. I, I … my characters were almost a little shadowing of how I was feeling emotionally and where I was, had the ability to be clear. For instance, when I did "Star 80," uh, there was a sense of victim in me; a bit of martyr. And so, I played this character who was totally a victim, who was … definitely trying to please people. And that's definitely where I was for most of my childhood. So it, it kind of … Whenever I played a character, it would sort of unfold in me, that sense of, this is who I am right not. A little bit; not, not from, like, I was, a, a method actor. But more about , those were the issues I needed to unravel.

Paul: I can relate to this, and so I can express this authentically.

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: Do you feel like that freed you up, to be able to, um, not be second-guessing yourself about how to play a scene or tap into an emotion?

Mariel: Luckily, when I'm, when I'm in a, in a project that's really good, and, and, people are, like … excellent, you know, directors, and the writing is good … which doesn't always happen. But when I feel that support, I never second-guess. When I've been invited to … join the party and, and, and step up, um, I don’t second-guess, and I'm very much, I very directable. But if I don’t have a good director, I'm no good. I'm just, like, it's just … I feel that actors need dire-, I think, you know, acting' such an interesting thing, cuz you really, it's such a community effort. You need to have everybody.

Paul: And it, it's such a, you're so exposed—

Mariel: Yes.

Paul:—out there. And, it, it boggles my mind how casting directors and directors cannot understand how exp—it's like, yelling at an actor on set, is like yelling at somebody while they are naked in, in, in front of a room full of clothed people.

Mariel: It's, it's horrible. Well, what's really interesting is, uh … so Bob Fosse, "Star 80" again. I learned so much from him; he was extraordinary. But he was tough. And, I had heard of stories or, with Marisa Berenson or something, He'd, like, done something horrible, showed he something horrible. And I pulled his aside one day and I said, "I know who I am. And if embarrass me, yell at me, do something really horrible to me in front of other people, I will crumble and I will shrink," you know, I will pull into myself and I won't, I won't do, I won't do well for you. And I'm, I just, I don't know how, you know, Eric Roberts is gonna do it, I don't know how other people, and some people really respond well; I don't. I will absolutely let … I'm not asking for praise, but don't criticize me publicly, cuz I was so … I had such fear of that. Anyway, um, so, anyway, he was, he was good.

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: I was terribly worries he was gonna be, really—I was, it was a really tough film. It was a really tough film. When I was done. I cut my hair because I didn't want to have any relationship to that character. And I changed the color—I was just like, I was trying to be, like, I'm not that person. Cuz it, I'd lived with it for so long. And I wanted it. I want, I pursued that character, I pursued that, this, sort of … It was interesting how I really under—

Paul: You mean, you pur-, you pursued the role, or pursued—

Mariel: I pursued the role.

Paul: Right.

Mariel: He didn't want me at all. You're an athlete, you live in Manhattan. I don't know; I don't get you for this. And I was like, "Oh, no. You don't understand. I really—I get her. I get—" you know, and she was this victim of, of a, of a murder. But, you know, she was so … I so understood that lack of voice, and, um—

Paul: She was, in many ways, a little girl that—

Mariel: Absolutely!

Paul: —kind of … had not found her power.

Mariel: No. Exactly.

Paul: And was—

Mariel: So, and I felt that, I felt really understood that. Not necessarily—like, maybe I'd been through that. But, anyway. It was interesting. And, you know, any of the strong and powerful roles, it was, an ex-, a slight expression of myself. But I think all actors are expressing small pieces of themselves. You just accentuate those pieces that are part of the characters. And, and, you know, make them … bigger than life.

Paul: Did your parents ever share, uh, or your father, ever share any stories, uh, about your grandfather that … struck you as being a part of this tapestry of dysfunction and …

Mariel: You know, it's interesting. When you come from a home—I was just with a friend who's, like, talking about her family, and her mother tried to commit suicide three times, and all this stuff. And she's like, "When you're inside of it, you don't know, that that's not normal." So stories would be told about my family, and I … didn’t know any different. So, my family was so dysfunctional. My sisters were so troubled. So troubled. And, and addiction became the thing that enabled them to move through it, um, that I didn’t know anything different. So, stories didn’t strike me.

Paul: Gotcha.

Mariel: You know what I mean. It just didn’t, didn’t seem like an abnormal thing to listen to people talking about whatever weird thing they did. I mean, I thought there were certain odd things, like my father told me about his dad taking him to a whore house at, like, 13, to, so he could lose his virginity. Which was weird for, that he was telling me that anyway (laughs). But secondly, I was like, "Well, who does that?!" But apparently that's you do when you're a man who can't deal with those conversations. It's so funny, he could have written about it, and he should have probably just written a story (laughs) for him and said, "Please read."

Paul: Yes.

Mariel: But, you know, instead he was like, about … which I appreciate, he was about the experience of—

Paul: Right.

Mariel:--but, um, (stumbles on words)

Paul: That traumati-, that's traumatizing for a 13-year-old, even if it's physically exciting, that's still, over-, overwhelming.

Mariel: Yeah, it, it's still—cuz he was a little bo-, he was a little boy. And he was raised mostly by his mother—my grandmother, Hadley, cuz he, um, my grandfather left them when they were, he was, my father was only, maybe 18 months old, he was … or two. And he grew up in Paris, so he was raised by a woman. You know, and so, this man that he would see periodically would do these extreme things. He would, for instance, they'd go hunting and, you know … But, he'd never hunted before. Or he would take him fishing, but he wouldn’t let him fish; he made him watch. And nothing was ever explained. So, I think that that's what, later in life, I started to realize was, abnormal, you know. And I, and, and, and realizing, "Oh, I don’t want to parent like that. I don’t wanna have no explanation." But I grew up in the 70s; nobody explained anything (laughs), you know, like … nothing! You didn’t understand ANYTHING that was going on. They just has a cocktail, and, uh (laughter), you know—

Paul: Filled the room with smoke.

Mariel: Yeah, filled the room with smoke. We, we had—my parents had something called "wine time." And that was just the time that they, you know, they would knock a few glasses of wine back, thinking … you know, and they were nice at first. And after three, four glasses, they'd be … (stumbles on words) shit started to get ugly.

Paul: Things would get intense.

Mariel: It would get intense. And I remembered just this … drudge—this dreading feeling inside my heart just watching them become people I didn’t, I didn’t like. I didn’t like them, I didn’t respect those people. And it was hard And, I wanted to, I wanted to protect them at the same time.

Paul: From, from pain, from anger, from—

Mariel: Yeah, I guess protect them from what they were gonna end up doing. So, a lot of times, uh, and I talk about this in my book, "Out Came the Sun." I talk about how … you know, I, I would wake up I the middle—well … I usually wasn’t asleep, but I could hear it, that the family had finally, like, finished. They'd … either partied, or they'd had too much to drink, and shit was flying around the room, and people were leaving, and there was screaming. And I'd go downstairs and I would clean up whatever mess had been left over … (stumbles on words) And I think, you know, now, not really realizing it at the time, that I , I would hope that if I could clean up, what had happened in the middle of the night, wh-, the darkness that would occur at those hours that people were supposed to be peaceful and … whatever, um, that we could wake up and pretend, and, and start anew. And pretend like we lived normal lives. And nobody talked about it or anything, so … I could pretend that until the next time. But I spent a lot of nights, uh, like, with my cat watching me (laughs), cleaning up, that—and not feeling sorry for myself. That's what I understood to be my job. I understood that to be the way that I could function in the world that I was living in. But, there was … yeah. It just—night times were hard when I was a kid. And I would … I almost blacked-out slept. So when I would sleep, I would black out. But sometimes I would wake up—I was thinking about this the other day, I was thinking about coming here and talking to you, that I would wake up … sometimes in the middle of the night, two, three, those very, very dark (chuckles) hours that you're not quite supposed to be awake yet, and I couldn’t sleep. And, um, I would go downstairs an just think … I didn’t know what depression was, but I knew that there was just such a deep sadness, such a darkness inside. My mother also had cancer; my father had had a heart attack. And they drank all the time, and you know, dealt, dealt with things not at all. So, those dark hours of just sitting there, wondering … if I would make it through, how, how—what it would be like, and how would I make it through. I didn't ever have a suicidal thought back then, uh, that happened later in life. But, it was, it just was a … it was a jarring … bunch of hours, it felt like hours and hours; I'm sure it was an hour (laughs), you know, trying to figure out what, what is done in the middle of the night that could help serve. So, I think, when there was a mess to clean up, at least it gave me something to do when I would wake up in, in those kind of scary, scary hours.

Paul: What were some of the other ways that you coped, either mental, mentally or actions that you took?

Mariel: Well, for me, nature's been a big, huge solace for me. It's been my biggest healer. And it's kind of something I truly believe in. I believe that, that, that to create balance in your life, you have to be … you have to think about what you eat, whether you drink water, how much you breathe, you know. And getting outside, is hugely important. Those are the … soul connections—

Paul: And human connection. I think those—

Mariel: And human ... and, and, human connection—relationship is extraordinarily important. But, getting out in nature when I was a kid was the thing that … I would hike for hours by myself in the hills, running, hiking, with my dogs, talking to … I dunno, birds (chuckles). A little weird (laughs). But, that was how I felt alive. You know, when it was windy, I could feel—you know, like, just sensation, on my skin, all of those things, breathing air, coldness, hot, smells, all of those things really profoundly, um, helpful to me. I, I, I longed for, I—that's also … I mean, I, I'm probably a pentheus more that anything else. I felt the god was in the leaves and in the wind and, and I felt like I was protected.

Paul: It's hard, it's hard to not feel it when, when you're … especially when you’re in Ketchum, ID, which is so beautiful—

Mariel: Yes, it is so beautiful.

Paul: I mean, I've only seen pictures of it, but, um, it, it looks, it looks amazing.

Mariel: It's extraordinary. And I'm so thankful, because I've always known that, that was sort of what helped me through. Like, took my hand, and—

Paul: It was kind of like the parent that you needed.

Mariel: Yeah. Yeah. And I LOVED my parents—I mean, don't get me wrong, when they're your parents, you don’t' know any other people … til—I loved my mother who, you now, drank every night, and had cancer. And I loved my father, who was one of the great outdoorsman of all time. He was extraordinary, that the amount that he knew—we used to call him "Mr. Encyclopedia (chuckles)," cuz he just knew about everything. He was so … well-educated and so—he'd had such incredible experiences in his life, so when you would get past the, what they would do routine-wise, and get to the core of who they were as human beings, there was so much to love. Bu they didn’t love themselves, you know, that horrible thing, and that, that depression that my mother had. And I didn’t even realize until … she had passed and I'd written books and, you know, made the movie "Running From Crazy." I hadn't realized how … depressed she was her entire life. He lost her first husband in the war. And I didn’t even know she, until … til I was 16, when I found a picture of this other man with my mom. I was like, "Who's this," I'd said to my dad (Paul laughs). And my dad was like, "Oh, ask your mother." (Paul laughs) Like it's a big secret. So I go to my mom; my mom's like, doesn’t want to talk about it. And, and then my sister, my other, my older sister, who was 11 years older than me, says, "Oh, Mom was married before." I'm like, "WHAT?! My mother was married—" You know, and he'd died—he was a fighter pilot. But they'd only been married, like, nine months, so, he'd never done anything wrong. So, he was Prince Charming. He was, like, the guy that fell out of the sky, and now she's left with the real world, where she was depressed and, you know, she never got over that; she never mourned that completely. She'd never went through it—and I never even knew. And it kind of made sense to me, why … she got cancer and had—cuz she had so much resentment in her life—I'm, you know, I get a little woo-woo about things like that. But I do think that we, that I …we invite those things into our lives when we can't handle, dealing with them. And I think that was also the kind of, that's when we … You know, I think our generation's like, "Oh, let's work on ourselves. Let's get therapy, let's do this. Let's see what's going on." Let's own, own who we are and where we've been.

Paul: Yes, and we've seen it modeled for ourselves and our parents' generation … there was no model for it—

Mariel: No model—

Paul:—and expect them to have done otherwise is—

Mariel: —which is why you can't get mad about anything that happens, in my opinion. Because it's like, they didn't know; they did the best they could. My, my parents had … were the, you know, the parents of my oldest sister, schizophrenic, bipolar, suicidal tendencies. And they just thought they had a messed-up kid that did drugs at the end of the, you know, at the end of the 60s, early 70s.

Paul: Are you talking about, uh, Margaux?

Mariel: No, this is Muffet. No, Margaux, Margaux's my middle sister. She did a lot of drugs, too (laughs). And a lot of drinking. But, it was Muffet that was the most challenging for them, because she was … you, know, she went into mental institutions, and I was told, as a child, that she was going to school. So, we would go visit her, and I'd go, "Why are there bars on the windows of the school?" You know. It was just, weird, like, but nobody ever said anything. Nobody ever explained anything … you know. I didn't know that going in the middle of the night in January down the street of our home town, looking for my sister, who was naked, in January, with a scarf (unintelligible) and dancing … you know. Like, I didn’t know that that wasn’t, just … that other families were dealing with the same thing

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: It was just weird. But I would be in the back of the car and just, like looking. And then, "Oh, I think I see her," and there she was, like … you know. So, it's just that … And it wasn't … there was no poor me. It's just I didn't under—but, what I realize is, in those dark moments in the middle of the night where I was, like, trying to process what I didn't understand—

Paul: Uh-huh

Mariel: You know.

Paul: And, you know, going back to the thing about … you know, it's hard to get mad, uh, at them. I just want to, clarify, too, for people who are going through the process of, um, mourning, maybe what they didn’t get in childhood, or trauma that they did experience in childhood. I think it's really important to deal with, um, the anger at the situation, at, at what you didn’t get or what you had to experience, not necessarily to make your parents feel bad. But to let that anger out, to process it, so you don't carry it around … the rest of your life. Or, or, so that you don’t feel like you're a bad person for, for being angry at something—

Mariel: Oh, yeah! I mean … I—when I say, you know, you can't mad. Of course, you can get mad.—

Paul: Right. I just wanted—I know you know that—

Mariel: I spent a lot of years—I know. Absolutely. Yes. I spent a lot of years being mad and, you know, and was part of the process. What I, what I think happened is, when you go through the process of understanding where you come from, realizing that … you know, your parents did a lot of things you are angry about, and you get to be angry about them. But, at some point, we need to move on, because ultimately, they, they have to be forgiven for their lack of understanding in their own lives. No gui-, you know, no guidance, like you said. No, nothing to, to, to look to. But, it is a process—

Paul: Yes.

Mariel: You know.

Paul: And, I feel like, if we don't get, if we don’t develop some type of tool to process those feelings, we can't organically get to that place where we can, uh, forgive them, um—

Mariel: Oh, absolutely.

Paul: And … sometimes you'll have somebody say, uh, you k now, you, you need to forgive them, as, like, in, you know, an order, and like shaming that person for, for—

Mariel: Oh, no, no. And actually, you know, if forgiveness is not part of what you can do, then that's okay, too. I make no judgment; I know that that was my process. And I only share from my own experience. I know that forgiveness gave me freedom. Now … forgiveness, for me, is different. I wasn't abused by my family, per se, really. I mean, I was emotionally, probably, abused, but then—

Paul: You think!

Mariel: —but it was nothing inten—

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: (Chuckles) There was nothing intentional, you know. There was no sense that, like, my mother loved me and my father loved me. And they respected me, and they thought that I could parent myself just fine, because … I seem to be doing it, you know (chuckles). So, it's that—the, for me—

Paul: They didn’t intentionally hurt you.

Mariel: No, not at all. But, forgiveness is an, is an interesting thing. And forgiveness doesn’t have to be … oh, I forgive, I forgive this person, now I'm gonna go hang out with them. Actually, I think forgiveness can be a process of acceptance. Forgiveness can be acceptance. It can be, I can’t change what happened, so I accept that it did happen. And it doesn't mean that I have to hang out with that person. But I know that that is a compartment that I can put on a shelf and say, "That happened. I accept that that happened. I don't have to live with that person," or whatever. I think that, um, forgiveness, it has, it has many forms, you know. It doesn’t have to be cut and dry, like, oh now, like, the lord (chuckles), if the lord forgives me and I love the lord … you know. Like, we don't … you know, human beings are complicated, and it's hard, cuz the little person in us has a hard time … you know, doing those things because we didn’t feel loved or, you know—and during that times, like … I dunno. So, I—you know, I think there's all kinds of interesting work that can be done, working on the child in you that never goes away. And just … embracing them yourself. Because I think that that's the hardest thing for those of us that have struggled in any way, is that acceptance of our, of ourselves, of the little person in us that didn’t understand. And, and, and being okay with that, and embracing that little person that didn’t get … loved or, you didn’t feel like it was gi-, that person was getting loved. And doing it yourself—

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel:—That's an interesting journey.

Paul: Yeah. As much as I hate the term "self-parenting," it's so true. It's, it's such an accurate term. Self-love, whatever you want to call it. In making peace with the vestiges of the damage or the wounds that, that we occur, because nobody gets through it … through life unscathed in finding a way to manage whatever … the, the … vestiges of the wounds are, is, at least in my opinion, the path towards self-love. And, we're uniquely positioned to be our own best friend, and we talk to ourselves in a way that, if somebody else did, we would get a restraining order.

Mariel: Absolutely. I wrote that in my book—I have a book called "Heathy Living From the Inside Out." And I talk about the, the voice in the back of your head, that, is like, if they came over for dinner, you'd be like, "Get the flip outta my house! Who are you (laughter)?!" But we put up with it all the time. And we're not even aware of how often that voice is going, "You're not even (slurred words). You don't look good. You're this; you're that. Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye."

Paul: And it seems like reality.

Mariel: And it seems like reality. But, it's not it—and I say that to people, you know, that ask me about my own life, or, you know, how do you get over those things. And I'm like, "Pay attention to that voice, and don't allow it, because it's not you." So, what happens is, to, to people is I think that voice becomes so big, we mistake it for ourselves.

Paul: We do. We do.

Mariel: You know.

Paul: And, that's why I think human connection, and especially support groups and safe people and they are so important, because for many of us, myself included, that—I had to (chuckles) have enough people love me to know they couldn’t be wrong; they couldn’t all be wrong

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: And that, maybe, I, I have … a part of me that, that is—

Mariel: Is lovable.

Paul:—Is lovable. And it sounds … so cheesy to say that out loud, but … never … taking that leap of faith and being vulnerable and sharing your insides with another person. I, I think it's … impossible to get to a place where you can begin to make peace with who you are. At least, that was my experience—

Mariel: Absolutely.

Paul:—I'm sure there are people who do it in a monastery, not speaking for two years. But, um, that, that wasn’t my experience.

Mariel: Yeah. Well, it just that, everybody has their different path. I mean, there's, you know, there's no one way to a place of balance. And, it's like you said … you knew when you, um, I guess we were in … but, I'm sure your audience that you were on medication—

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mariel:—and you didn't take your medication and all that. That—you know that works for you; that's your path towards balance. And everybody has a different path. I mean, I don't, I don't take medication, but I—it's not that I don’t believe in it. It’s just, I don't need that, that, because I'm, I've created a syst-, or I've figured out the system that creates my own internal, like, I can weigh how I'm doing. But I was never clinically … I guess, diagnosed as any of those things. But I know that my sister, who's schizophrenic and suffers. She has to be on medication, and she does very well, you know. So, it's just, it’s all about finding the things that work for you.

Paul: Absolutely. If, you, if you could get in a time machine and go back to talk to your younger self at any age, what … would that be, and … or any, any … range of ages—

Mariel: Right.

Paul:—what would you say, or what would younger you have wanted to hear or say?

Mariel: Well, I, you know … I've done this (chuckles). I've don’t this probably too many times (chuckles). You know, the, the young me was … there's probably different ages that I would have done that. I know that three and four ... I felt … a bit, a bit invisible. In fact, one of my book, latest books was called "Invisible Girl." And I think that, you know, if I were to say to her, anything, is that I can see you. I see who you are, and I love you. You know, it's as simple as that. It's … it's the simple things, not really complicated. Cuz what do you, you know—I think I was given too complicated emotions to have to deal with at the age that I dealt with them. So, I didn’t quite understand them, but I pretended to. So … I think I would also say to an older Mariel, it's okay that you don’t unders-, understand. You're not supposed to understand all of this. Any you also don’t have to fix it. It's not your job to fix your parents, your sisters, anybody. It's not ever your job to fix your-, to fix yourself right now. It's your job to be a child. And I think I would say that, to that sort of … I dunno … seven- to 14-year-old girl. That's it's okay to be a kid. I didn’t know how to be a kid, and it was really interesting because … that would lead me to, when I was parenting my own two daughters who are now 30 … 29 and 30, that … I, I would say to … that woman, little girl, who was being a little girl … you know, inside, who didn’t know how to play with her daughters, it's okay; you weren't taught how to play. You weren’t taught how to love, really, in an open way. I was really good at organizing things, and—

Paul: Doing.

Mariel: —being a … doing. Yeah. But I didn’t know how to relax and do nothing and watch and laugh and have fun. And my life is so different now, because I, I fill myself with laughter and fun and things I that never did as a child. And it's sad to me that my, my kids didn’t get that, cuz I didn’t know how. And I, so I would say to that girl, who was being a little girl, you know, thinking she was responsible for everything and only knew how to—cuz I remember looking out from the kitchen window at the girls playing in the lawn, with their Dad at the time. And he was always the playing guy and having fun and they laughed and they were, you know. But I would look at my watch when I was out in a playground or something. And like, how much longer does this have to go on? Cuz I didn't know how to do it. I didn’t know how to let go. And, like, it goes full circle back to my grandfather, who didn’t know how to be vulnerable at that time. What's interesting is I chose a profession … that, if you weren’t being vulnerable, you couldn’t, it, you weren’t very interesting to watch. So, I would put all my vulnerability into a place where … I didn’t have to call it "me."

Paul: Uh-huh.

Mariel: And I managed to be EXTREMELY vulnerable there.

Paul: That, I mean, that would be the word that I would use to describe the work of yours that I have seen, which is, um, you know. Like in "Manhattan' and in, in "Star 80," there's this, um … this little girl quality, uh … helpless isn’t, isn’t the, the right word, but, um, um, just so … yeah. Just so vulnerable.

Mariel: Yeah. I think I was trusting.

Paul: Trusting! That's the perfect word.

Mariel: I trusted … I, I was trusting. And I, and there was a part of me that was that. But as I got older, and, and maybe the, the, the patterns of trying to be an adult or, you know, whatever. I started to lose that sense of trust. And it's been an interesting journey. I met my now partner, life partner, whom … madly in love with and we're just … he's … opened up a part of me that enables me to be … I mean, I—

Paul: Is he the partner in "Running from Crazy?"

Mariel: Yes.

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel: Yeah. I mean, okay, and (chuckles)—

Paul: And you are so honest in that movie, about your foibles and your struggles. It's one of the things that makes it … so, so powerful. It's … I, I .. have been recommending this documentary since it, it came out.

Mariel: Aww; thank you! Thank you.

Paul: It, it ... I cried like a baby in the, in the theater watching—

Mariel: Yeah, I know (chuckles). Thank god we have the car scene, because (laughs) at least there's some levity for a moment.

Paul: Yes.

Mariel: (Laughs) Anyway, you gotta see it, then you'll understand what I'm saying (laughs).

Paul: Yes. Yes. So, where were we before, um, before that—

Mariel: Umm …

Paul: Oh, learning how to let go.

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: Learning how to let go and have fun.

Mariel: Yeah. It was so ha-, it was so hard for me. . I felt like such a bad parent. You know, I was good at all the other stuff and ... you know.

Paul: So, how did you find the ability to do that.

Mariel: Well—oh, and I was saying that my partner, my life partner now, Bobby, um … (chuckles) So we've been together 10 years. And , in the very beginning … We always had fun, like it was always—Fun, but I, I was challenged (chuckles) with fun. I was challenged with fun.

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: Like, if we're in a ca—, if we're in a car and we're going somewhere and I think we're going to the movies, or we're going somewhere. And … he would just pull the car to the side of the road and go, "Let's go up that hill, and, like, see what's over there." And I'd be like, "What?!" And he'd be like, "No. Let's, like, walk over the hill, and we'll just like see…" I said, "But, we're going … we're going to a movie. Like, we have a plan."

Paul: Yes, I'm prepared to control that!

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: (Laughs)

M And he's like, Yeah. I dunno. I mean, we can go to the movie another time. Let's just go over here—" So it was con-, he was constantly throwing me into places of, like, I don't know what's gonna happen. Fear of the unknown. So I guess I was like … And he'd make me laugh all the time. And, I would say to him … I don't, like, I, I, I … this is crazy. Like, we're just laughing. He's like, "yeah, you supposed to … just laugh."

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: "You're supposed to just have fun." "But we're adults." He's like, "I'm not an adult (laughs)."

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: You know, he's my age. And I'd go, "But, we're, we have to …" You know. It was so … I-, i-, initially, it was so hard for me to be okay with that. And I remember when my—and in the documentary, my daughter's looking at me on the trampoline. And, like, "My mom just did a backflip," right? And, I … before seeing … being with Bobby, you know, I hadn't done a backflip since I was a kid on my trampoline in my backyard. And, the kids saw me do that, and my daughter was like, "My mom just did a backflip." Meaning, like, you know—and my girls used to say to him, "Oh, when you leave, she'll go back to being, like, kind of somber." And, and it wasn't—and I could put on a good show socially, that I was happy all the time. But I realize I was completely … I had to have a role, I had to have a reason for everything. And Bobby brought spontaneity and, just laughter for no reason. And happiness because, why not be happy? It's a good choice. And I'd be, like he taught me so much. And now, of course, I'm ridiculous. I mean, even initially, he would talk in a weird, like funny, you know … he'll get those weird voices. And initially, it was so—I was emba—I would be emba—it would be coming out of my mouth and I would be, like, embarrassed for myself (chuckles). Because I sounded … I was like, oh my god, I sound ridiculous; I sound, you know. It was so hard for me. Now, of course, like, I'm ridiculous; I don't care that I sound like an idiot baby, whatever. And I know how to have fun. But it took me a long time. It scared me. Cuz it, it was, just like you said, it was losing control. I could control the moments I could control. And I didn’t know what it meant to just be free.

Paul: And to, and to trust in real life.

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: Was there a moment you remember, were you felt like, "I've changed?" … Or a, or a series of moments?

Mariel: I think … (laughs) sadly, I'm such a slow learner that there's never one epiphany where I go, "Ahhhh! I'm this way now (laughs)." No, no, it was like a slow process where—but I do remember, um … being with Bobby at one point, and we were laughing so hard that he had to pull the car over to the side of the road, um, because he just couldn’t, like—he thought, "I'll get in an accident if I don’t pu-," cuz we were laughing so hard. And I looked at him and I was laughing, and tears were running down my face, and then I started to cry, but it was like an emotional cry, just like, "Why are you crying," because he doesn't quite understand that. I was like, "Actually, sometimes, that's a good thing (laughs)."

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: "I'm actually really happy." "Why are you crying anyway?" I can't explain it to him … til, to this day. But, I started to cry, and I was like … you know, you … "I've never been seen before. And you enable me to see myself." And that was … it was such a gift. I was like, oh my god, I waited my whole life, and I didn’t even know that that's what I wanted. So … I guess that was the moment (chuckles).

Paul: (Pauses) Yeah, those, those moments when we … realize that maybe the universe does love us—

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul:—and what we thought was inaccessible for us … isn't.

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: It's such an amazing feeling, those—

Mariel: Yeah.

Paul: —tears of, um … happiness, relief—

Mariel: Yeah. Journey well done (laughs). Wow.

Paul: And, and, and … feeling … a, a, a part of, um, something that, I dunno, it … doesn't have words, but, uh—

Mariel: No, they really don't.

Paul: Like, not swimming upstream for a moment.

Mariel: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. When it doesn't feel like a struggle … and you don't even realize you’ve been struggling the whole time … until you have that moment of relief, you're like, "Oh, wait a second—"

Paul: "Oh this is what—"

Mariel: "Wait!" Like, "Oh, that's what they write about (laughs)"

Paul: Yes. Cuz I used to think that was all bullshit.

Mariel: I did, too.

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel: I mean, I've even, even with Bobby, I was like … Before him … And don't get me wrong, I was married for a long time, and, and all that. But, being in love and being spontaneous and being joyous … just wasn’t … it, I, I had moments, of course: births of my children and things that were extraordinary in my life. But they were not lasting. They—and that was a surprise to me. I did something called brain wave optimization, which is balancing the hemispheres of the brain through sound. So, your brain hears itself in real time and it helps balance the brain. Anyway, after doing several sessions of it, um … I just, I started to have even-keeled days, like, where I just felt good all day long. All day long. And I remembered waking up and I looked over at Bobby and I was like, "Holy shit! I feel good again (laughs)!"

Paul: (Laughs)

Mariel: And Bobby goes, "What?" And I go, "Dude! I think that's been 10 days where I felt good every- I wake—my eyes open and I feel good!" I've never, I had never known that. I didn’t know what it was like to just feel good.

Paul: isn't it funny wh-, when we feel—

Mariel: No, is wasn’t like it—yeah, I wasn't on a high.

Paul: Right, but you—

Mariel: So, it wasn’t like a … and I used to look for that. Like, over-exercise or something. I would try to do it through something. But it was just there.

Paul: And it's called brain wave optimiza—

Mariel: Brain wave optimization. It's a company—

Paul: Is there a, is—

Mariel: It's called Brain State … brainstatetechnology.com. And they have … they … you know, because of the FDA, they have to be very careful about what they say they can do. Basically, they'll say, "Oh, it just makes you feel peaceful," and stuff like that. But, it was extraordinary in really, changing the neural pathways in my brain, so that they went … But I've, you know—my life's about finding those things that help to keep that balance all the time. Through … now, for me, it's finding natural ways that, you know, whether it's food and stuff. I've got a hemp oil I love (chuckles), you know, like I find things because … and I share them, because … why not? You know. I never claim that they're … you gonna save anybody, but they certainly help me to feel amazing in my life.

Paul: Is there anything that you'd like to, uh, to share, talk about, uh ... You know, I was gonna bring up some, some stuff from the documentary, that … is kind of heavy and they're kind of secrets that you reveal that … um ... But, you know what? Maybe, we'll leave that; that, that'll give peace-, people a reason to watch the documentary, and I feel like—

Mariel: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you know, I said … there are some interesting things about the documentary that I addressed in my book, because I felt that it was—

Paul: In, which, which book?

Mariel: "Out Came the Sun."

Paul: Okay. And that's the most recent.

Mariel: That's the most recent book. I did "Out Came the Sun" and "Invisible Girl" at the same time. "Invisible Girl" is my version of my childhood from my 14-year-old perspec-, perspective. And then "Out Came the Sun" is, literally, my life and my family's life from birth to now (chuckles) … or, whenever it came out (laughs).

Paul: So, everything that was covered in "Running From Crazy" is—

Mariel: Yes. And I address it in a different kind of way. You know, cuz there are things in the documentary that I say that, that I don't necessarily not mean, but I, I was very specific about how to … frame the information that I gave in my book. Because I think they were looking for it to be a little more salacious in the documentary. And it's good, you know. I love Barbara Kopple; she's amazing.

Paul: She is amazing.

Mariel: She's an amazing filmmaker. And, it's not, like it's, it's salacious in a bad way. It's just like—

Paul: It did not feel exploitative or sensational at all.

Mariel: No, not at all. It's just, in the book, I explain, like, my relationship with my father and my relationship with, the, the relationship my father had with my sisters in a very specific way that I think makes me feel better about how I talk about that. Just because I think that it's a complicated issue, and it's not easily … I mean, we … everybody will watch it, and it's just a, it's a "me too" generation, and I don't want it to be about that; that's not what it's about. It's about a, a, a man who struggled his whole life to find his identify. And, then, used alcohol and, you know, and what, what that does to him and what that does to a person to make them not themselves.

Paul: Yeah.

Mariel: You know.

Paul: Anything else, that, that you'd like to share.

Mariel: I dunno. This has been wonderful (laughs).

Paul: I'm, I'm so glad that you came by. I've been wanting to, uh, have you as a guest for, for a long time. So I was thrilled that, uh, that you came by. And, um—

Mariel: Well, thank you. It's really, it's really a pleasure. I'm, I really respect somebody that … takes the time to have a real conversation, especially about these kinds of things because … like, you, you were saying before we started, it's important, these conversations need to be had. because people, everywhere … and all families, and all people, have something … something! You know, doesn't matter what it is. I listened to a couple of your podcast—I mean, it was, you know, like body issues. I could come back and talk to you about millions of things (laughs).

Paul: Well, we'll do it! We'll do it. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Mariel: Thank you so much.

__________________

[01:09:45] She was also nice enough to sign a copy of her book, "Out Came the Sun." And if you're a monthly donor, shoot me an email. The first person to email me, I will send you that signed copy of it. This would also be a good place to say, please, uh, help the show out financially, uh, by either a one-time donation, or, um, becoming a monthly donor through PayPal or Patreon. It, um, it's much needed, and it would, uh, I would greatly appreciate it. I put the, I put the links up to all the different ways you could help the podcast, either financially or non-financially.

[01:10:21] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's an online, uh, therapy provider, and, uh, they're great. I really, really enjoy using it, and it's so convenient, being able to do therapy from my living room. I do it via video. And, um, it's, it worked great. I'm a huge fan. So, go to betterhelp.com/mental, fill out a questionnaire, and then they'll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[01:10:55] This episode is also sponsoled by … (laughs) "sponsoled (laughs)?" This episode is also sponsored by Blinkist. If you are like me, the list of books you wanna read is gigantic, and there's just, there's no way that you're ever gonna get through 'em. So, Blinkist has solved this problem once and for all. Blinkist is the only app that takes thousands of the best-selling non-fiction books and distills them down to their most impactful elements. So, you can read or listen to them and expand your knowledge, all in under 15 minutes. Anywhere, anytime, from your phone. I listened to the one, uh, on Leonardo da Vinci by Walter Isaacson, and, uh, the Blinkist version of that was great. I learned so many interesting things about him. And it only took me 15 minutes. I recommend getting the Blinkist, uh, version of "Progress," by Johan Norberg . Yeah, you can get a summary of key moments in human progress, and that's probably the next one I'm gonna, I'm gonna check out. And, right now, for a limited time, Blinkist has a special offer just for you guys. Go to blinkist.com/mental to start your free seven-day trial. That's Blinkist, spelled b-l-i-n-k-i-s-t, blinkist.com/mental, to start your free seven-day trial. Blinkist.com/mental. And we'll put the links to all this stuff on the web site.

[01:12:30] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by "Airborne Medic," and he writes, "I'm a veteran of the Iraq War, and served three year-long plus tours as a combat medic in Iraq, and struggle with PSTD, depression, and anxiety. The other day, I was listening to music and relaxing on my couch, when my 11-year-old daughter approached me and said, 'Do you think you will go to heaven when you die?' I was about to tell her that I was not sure there was a heaven, when she followed up with, 'You know, because of all the people you killed during the war.' I immediately went and drank the pain away that night. Three days later, I got the courage to tell my wife that our daughter thinks I'm a murderer. My wife looked at me and laughed and said, 'She gets her empathy from you.' So, I'm a fucking, terrible soldier, and a terrible father." And the reason I wanted to read this is … because this, to me, is, is an example of somebody that could use a support network. Somebody that is not feeling understood, and I think that If you got around a group of people who have experienced what you have experienced, you, you wouldn’t … immediately jump to that conclusion about yourself. Because that's not what I thought about when, when I read this survey. I didn’t think, "Oh, your daughter thinks you're a terrible person." She's, she's just trying to sort out what all these big concepts are, um, in, in life. And, um, drinking, drinking the pain … is, is just a terrible, long-term solution. But I know how terrifying it is to ask for help, and especially when you're in that place where you're feeling shame and depression and anxiety. But, um … sending you some love, man. Sending you some love.

[01:14:28] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself "Railer Mailer," and he is straight, in his 30s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, never been sexually abused, uh, not sure if he has been physically or emotionally abused. "My parents used to 'discipline' me and my siblings with belts, shoes, extension cords, and their open hands." Yeah, an extension cord, definitely. You know, time's have changed, and that used to not be a, a, a concern for, uh, society. The spanking with the belts, but, um … yeah. Any positive experiences? "When it comes to my parents, I appreciate them working jobs that they hated to support me and my siblings. To that, I always want to help them out and make sure that they are happy, safe, and sound. It's hard to reconcile those feelings with the anger that I felt growing up and still have, just underneath the surface." And, and that's such an important point to make because those two are not mutually exclusive. Just because your parents, you know, that you experienced positive things with them, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t process the anger you have about the things that were negative that you experienced. And that's not to, um, you know, demonize them. It's so that you can let go of that, those feelings that you're trapping. Cuz those drag us down, man. Sounded like a hippie there. "Uh, the-, those thoughts drag … they drag you down, baby. Can you fig?" Darkest thoughts. "I've been in a relationship with my significant other for all of my adult life. Up to now, and I constantly think about cheating on her with other women. Part of this is because I'm not as attracted to her as I used to be, and sometimes I question whether I was ever really attracted her: sexually, intellectually, or otherwise. I never experienced an overly-attractive woman hitting on me, and I'm afraid that just as soon as I move in with and propose to my significant other, I'll get nothing but attractive women coming after me. Just about every woman I come into contact with, I fantasize being seduced by some other woman out in public, having a torrid one-night stand without my S.O. ever knowing and carrying on with this behavior." Darkest secrets. "I watch pornography constantly. Probably more than the average person, it seems. When I get off to it, it sometimes feels better than when I'm with my significant other." And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to read this, because, um, you know, this has a lot of the hallmarks of somebody who has an intimacy, uh, disorder, or issue. Disorder's probably too strong of a word. But, um, you know, losing yourself in pornography, um, questioning whether or not you are attracted to someone, um, and, and then just retreating with all those feelings and not opening up about it, um, to someone else or, you know, a therapist or the things that you can open up to your wife about opening up to her about to see if that attraction will increase. Because, in a long-term relationship, man, if there isn't a, um, like an emotional foundation to it, where there's safety and trust and vulnerability and a willingness to have difficult conversations … it's, it's gonna go south. You now, the physical attraction can only last so long. And the pornography, to me, is a, it's a red flag—not pornography in and of itself, but watching it constantly. That's, you know, you're, you're running from something. And, um, it's better to find out what that is than to keep running from it ... um, because, you know, you … are worth more than … being lonely, and just retreating. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you. "I'm really turned on by the thought of a sexually attractive and aggressive manager or boss dominating me and using me sexually in any way she sees fit. Like, I'm their plaything. Anytime that I object to her making me feel used, she gets rough with me in private, and tells me that she's owns me and will do whatever she wants to me. Then, that person would essentially invite a group of mature, attractive, and sexually aggressive women over to the house and would make me get the all off over the course of a long night or weekend and threaten to punish me if I don't." I'm gonna recog-, uh, recommend a holiday weekend, um, just in case it's a extra-large group. You get a couple of stragglers coming in there. "She's basically pimping me out to all of her friends. All of this is done in front of the other women, who are shouting out commands and jeers of approval." What, if anything, would you like to day to someone you haven't been able to? "I love you, but I feel like you're blocking me from truly enjoying my life, and I'm so tired of having to take care of all of your emotional needs before my own. I wish you would stop over-reacting to me expressing myself and realize that when you do that, it causes me to retreat further into myself. I wish I could just let loose and be myself around you, but because our relationship has been built on me not doing that, I doubt it ever will." Well, there, there is a great place to start, and I think joint counseling would be a perfect place, cuz you'd have a neutral partner, um, who … who could … weigh in on this, and, if your … partner doesn’t agree with that person, at least then you have information to make a decision, uh, that, okay, my, my partner isn't interested in trying to grow, and is defensive, and isn't willing to work on themself. That's, uh, to me, that's a deal breaker in a relationship. So, um, you would have more information about whether to stay or not, and you’d find out whether or not your partner is willing to work on it. And, you might have somebody call them on their shit and help them grow. You know, you might be helping them as well. Or, maybe they won’t grow, but then you can, you can decide what it is you're gonna do. And they might call you on some of the stuff that you're doing. But, either way, you both wind up having a better chance of being the person that you wanna be, and being with the kind of person you wanna be. What, if anything, you wish for? "For my life to have balance, excitement, confidence, deep love, great, mind-blowing sex, and a sense of peace within myself." Have you shared these things with others? "Not really. Every time I come close, the other person bites my head off before I can even get to it, and then I back away." So the answer isn't to not do that. The answer is to find different people to do that with. How do you feel after writing these things down? "A little better that I got it all out, but ultimately still disappointed that these things are still going on, and likely will for a long, long time." But that decision is up to you. A form of insanity is waiting for other people to change and resenting them for not doing it. Is there anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "I'm glad you're out there, and hopefully we can meet soon and encourage and commiserate with each other." Thank you for that. That was a really, uh … really, important … survey, because that is such a common thing. And the cliché is true: there is nothing more important in a relationship than communication.

[01:22:27] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Lolla Romana." And, uh, she's straight, in her 40s, was raised in a stable and safe environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse: "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. Having a doctor in my childhood touching when I considered inappropriately and remember having to take all my clothes off for a basic check-up. Every time I had to go to this pediatrician, I became violently ill." Yeah, that does not sound, uh, like a normal doctor visit. And, um, children's instincts are, are usually right about what is safe and what isn't. And, uh, it sounds like that motherfucker should be in jail. She's been emotionally abused, um … "One particular relationship had the man taking advantage of my insecurities and neediness, and I eventually found out he had gone back to his wife, while still telling me we were gonna have a future. Once I broke free, I was stalked and he was furious that I had gained my power." Darkest thoughts: "Killing people who have taken advantage of me." Darkest secrets: "Was part of an adulterous relationship, because I believed the manipulation and the lies being given to me to keep me powerless." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I imagine others in romantic fairytale situations. It's never me. It's like an alternate world, fan-fiction movie. I create realities for literary or famous character. These enable me to live in a fantasy world, where all is simple and pure. I usually write these down in notebooks to revisit. I have never shared my stories or writings with anyone." You know, the thought just occurred to me … This, if you want to share these with someone, I think the forum for this show would be a great place to do that. There's a lot of really, really cool, sensitive, open-minded people there, and I know some of the people in the forum—I don’t pop my head in there too often—but, I know people do share their, uh, creative endeavors with, with each other in the forum sometimes. And, and the forum is just great, in general, if you wanna … if you just wanna connect with other people and talk about stuff that, you know, that we don’t talk about at cocktail parties. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would tell the man who used me that I want him to forget we ever met. I refuse to speak to him, so that kind of precludes my grand moment." What, if anything, do you wish for? "Peace, and for the guilt to go away." And she has shared these things with a therapist, and they went well. After writing these down, she feels, uh, a bit of relief. Thank you. Thank you for that. (Pause)

[01:25:29] This is, uh, another shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself, uh, "Solitude." He is straight, in his 20s, was raised in a stable and safe environment, never been sexually abused. He's been emotionally abused. "I was manipulated by a girl I wanted to date for many years. Looking back, I think she was probably just frustrated by me missing the signals that she wasn’t interested, but she nonetheless reacted in ways that destroyed my sense of self-worth. This all occurred while, as a teenager, I was discovering new feelings of depression and heavy mood swings. The best example I can remember: At one point, my outlet was to write poetry in a private journal. This girl had my locker combination. And one night, after everyone left school, she and her friends went into my locker, stole the journal, and wrote hurtful liner notes about my writing. When I wrote about suicidal thoughts in the journal, they drew pictures of what it would look like and recommend that I try them. I've avoided poetry ever since, even years later, as an adult." It is so fucking awful. Any positive experiences with the people who have abused you? "I eventually ignored her after I moved away for college. She came and visited many years later, and it didn’t hurt as much as I expected. I like to think that I matured beyond her behavior, but I don’t think I've ever matured beyond my feelings of embarrassment and shame around her. We've never talked about how that experience and many, many others crushed me. I don't think I'll ever forgive her and it makes it difficult to pretend that nothing's wrong. Thankfully, we rarely speak anymore." You know, and my thought is, it, it would be good to-, I mean, that's traumatic, being shamed like that, when you're at your most vulnerable. I think so type of trauma therapy, like EMDR or something else, uh, somatic experiencing, would, would be really great, because, uh, so much of the processing of trauma is done without any contact with that other person. That isn’t about them; it's about us processing what we felt and the negative self-beliefs we kind of took on and … drive us … today, if we don't deal with them. Darkest thoughts: "I'm suicidal on a daily basis. I have been since I was 16. And once, after the aforementioned journal incident, I attempted to take my life, but I couldn’t bring myself to do it. I never told anyone that it happened. Somehow, that attempt solidified that I would never try again, either. As an adult, I'm starting to sense that the darker corners of my mind want to test me. Suicidal thoughts never went away over a decade, but I've always been in control. In the last two years, a combination of work-stress—my job is the only pride I have—loneliness, after relocating, and a heavy period of self-decline, my suicidal thoughts have grown deeper and darker than I ever expected. These days, shame is a tidal wave, washing me of any pride, while I sink violently into the icy hatred that I hold for myself. It erodes my control and I worry that it pushes me closer and closer to the shores of hell. I've always felt this way about myself, but as I lose my sense of control, I fear that I'll take action one day. Lately, that fear feels like the only thing I can hold on to, while I continue to take my life apart by mistake." You would so benefit from … getting help. You would SO, SO benefit. That is so much that you are trying to shoulder on your own, and it is, it's just, I tried to do it, man. And it is no way to go through life, and it feels like, at the time, like the smartest, safest choice, but it is not. It is one of the most unsafe choices that we can make, is trying to go through life without vulnerability and without human connection. And the answer isn't, don't risk being hurt. The answer is, get better at recognizing who is safe and who isn't. And that takes time. Darkest secrets: "I'm a virgin. Personally, I wouldn’t look down on anyone else who is a virgin, but it is still the ultimate source of embarrassment for me. I never really had trouble dating in school, but I think I was very careful. I went to a college where less than 30 percent of the students were women, and I've never really been particularly attractive or charismatic. Since I also had no confidence, I found that it was easier to convince myself that I wasn’t worth anyone's time, and I retreated further into my studies." (Sighs.) Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I don’t really fantasize. I suppose when I was younger, I would think about what my first time would be like, but these days I feel so pathetic thinking about it, that I give up even before the mood strikes. I tell myself I have better things to do, but I'm convinced that is an empirically false statement." (Pauses.) You know … How do you feel after writing these things down? "It was nice to organize my thoughts. I should probably seek therapy." Or a support group. Either one, but you deserve love, you deserve to be seen. You deserve to feel validated. Because everything that you wrote in this is so human and so universal, and yet, when we're in that dark place, we shame ourselves and we tell us that nobody is as pathetic as we are. We are all so much more related and alike inside … than we can ever imagine.

[01:31:26] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by, uh … a guy who calls himself "I'm Positive This is Negative." And I wouldn’t even classify this is as an awfulsome moment. To me, this is just something I wanted to address. And he writes, "1916: This is the number of photos I have surreptitiously taken of random women who turned me on in one way or another during the past month. I've been doing this for the past nine years. I want to stop. I don’t know how." There is, there are places that you can go for help with compulsive behaviors, and this isn't gonna go away on its own. And, you know … it's only gonna lead to you … destroying … parts of your life, or your life … and hurting other people. And … people can change; it's about the feelings underneath the compulsive behavior that's the key. And we can't do that without the objectivity of, of other people … who are knowledgeable about it and want to help us. So I really encourage you to, to go get help. Shaming, just simply shaming yourself and hating yourself is not a solution. And, uh, you know, I say it … a lot of times, but nobody has ever shamed themselves into being the person that they want to be. But they have become the person they wanna be by taking that leap of faith and getting vulner-, vulnerable with another human being and asking for help in growing, and then also helping other people.

[01:33:22] This is a heavy one. And, again, I would classify it kind of like the previous survey, cuz there's nothing funny at all about this. It's filled out by "Flipper," and she writes, "My father is presently sexually abusing me, and I am miserable." And she's in her 20s. "I cannot get out of this situation at the moment, but it's in the works. The twist is, that he is at his most tolerable, loving, fatherly, calm, patient, person ever right after fucking me. So I fucked him, so he'll be nice to me." And anyone who, hearing me read this, who thinks that there's no way a 20-year-old could still be getting sexually abused by a parent, they don't understand the head trip of sexual abuse. And the disconnect between … the intellectual knowledge of what's going on, and the emotional barrier of being able to advocate for ourselves. Especially if we don't have any alternative … to get scraps of moments of love or … attention. And, um … Yeah, I've heard many stories like this, and, um, the good news is that you're planning to get out of there and, um … Yeah. I really, really hope that you start taking care of … yourself. That you get to the place where you can find the strength to, to stand up to him.

[01:35:16] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "I Forgot to Shave My Big Toe." That might be one of my favorite … names ever. She identifies as bisexual, and then in parentheses "I don't know what the fuck I am." That's all right, you don't have to, uh, uh, identify. She's in her 20s, uh, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. "My dad was emotionally unavailable. My mom is most likely borderline-personality disorder, and my brother was … ODD," which I think is oppositional defiance disorder, or something like that? "I was my mom's emotional support system from an early age, and I was angry at my dad for physically abusing my brother. I mostly hide alone in my room to avoid them. I have borderline personality disorder and dissociative identity disorder." Yeah, that's more than slightly dysfunctional, the stuff that you described, um, growing up in. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. I became a sex addict around the age of nine or ten. I was addicted to sex chat rooms and masturbated compulsively to the thought of being with a child molester. It made me feel powerful. I knew they'd be so turned on by a young girl being turned on by them. I used to touch myself after watching "To Catch a Predator," wishing it could be me. Now, I see how badly it has affected me. I feel guilty, like I sexually abused myself because it was choice to go online for hours every day. I had such bad body image because every year I got older, I felt less sexually attractive. I was such a lonely, isolated little girl. I wish I could go back and save myself and give that little girl a hug." This is gonna sound corny, but it's never too late to do that. You now, I … somebody suggested, one time, that I talk to pic-, a picture of myself from the age where the stuff that I was experiencing was, was the worst, and I did it and I just broke down and started crying because I saw how innocent … that kid was. You know, that 11-year-old me, and that opened the door for me to be more loving toward myself. But … you know … that … This is all so complicated, you know, and it doesn’t matter how we classify things. What matters is getting to the root of, of these things and unwinding that negative self-talk and finding tools to deal with life. She's been emotionally abused: "My mom telling me my friends don’t care about me, that no man will ever love me. She's the only person who loves me, and I don’t deserve that love. Woopty do; I used to think I was bad or evil and put her on a pedestal. Now, I see that she is a sick person." Any positive experiences with them? "Yes. I love her so much. I feel like it's my job to protect her, even though it's a toxic relationship. I feel guilty trying to leave." I HIGHLY recommend reading the book, "Silently Seduced," by Kenneth Adams, um, for people who were raised, um, with a parent who treated them like a partner. It can really fuck up, uh, your ideas of sex and intimacy, and that book is, like, the bible on understanding that stuff. Darkest thoughts: "Doing a gang-bang or bukkake," Um, I think I'm pronouncing that in—"buecocki, bucocki, Bukowski" That's actually where they bury you up to your neck, and then somebody reads you, uh, rally cutting-edge poetry. And then they cum on you. "—from strangers on Craigslist. I also used to think of helping a pedophile find and underage girl and help grooming her. But I haven’t thought about that one in a while." Deekest, deepest, darkest secrets: "I masturbated with my mom sleeping in the same bed. I did it out of anger, while we were on a three-week vacation together. Fucking disgusting." You are not disgusting. You are a human being who has been through traumatic events and severe neglect and abuse, and you haven’t been shown tools to deal with the feelings that ANY fucking human being would have. And, that's what we do, in the absence of tools, is we will reach for the first thing that makes us feel something else. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Daddy/little girl incest, especially one daddy fucking lots of little lucky girls at a sleepover. Or, a dominant girl making me eat her pussy. It makes me wish I could act it in real life." What, if anything, would you like to someone you haven’t been able to: "Tell my dad that I love him, and I'm sorry I was a bitch to him growing up." You know, from what you shared in your survey, um, you know, not that you didn’t ever act out as a kid, or ever have things that you should apologize for, um, it, it … just what you experienced, um, there should definitely be some apologies coming your way from the people that raised you. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I had DID and I wish I could stop spacing out and running into walls and having body spasms. Also, to make some friends." Have you shared these things with others? "Yes, but I only feel comfortable telling them if I feel certain they are equally or more fucked up than I am." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Like you're going to criticize my grammar and sentence structure. Like I'd love to meet you, if you're ever in my city, but you might be bored by my company." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "You're not alone. Get your ass to a support group." And that’s what I would like to say to you. And but the way, I love, uh, when I go do a live event, after the event, I love … meeting listeners, sharing a handshake or a hug, and just getting the … face-to-face, see the people that, that listen to the podcast, whether, you know, it's me thanking them for listening, or them thanking me for, for doing the podcast. It's, it's a really great community, and, um … You sound like a really, uh, just a really sweet soul, who is in a lot of pain. And I think a support group would be so, so great for you. Any comments to make the podcast better? "Have you ever talked to someone who was mentally stable (chuckles)?" In 1996, I had a brief elevator ride with someone who looked put-together … I think that's the only one, but they didn't say anything. They just looked like they had their shit together. So, yeah, I have.

[01:43:07] And then, uh, finally this is a happy moment filled out by … and it's a little bittersweet, but it's filled out by a guy who calls himself "Not a Robot, I Promise," and he writes, "After my wife suddenly left me this year, I took a short vacation to visit my sister and her family in California. While I was pleased to be able to see my sister, her husband, and her two daughters, I was kind of apprehensive about her youngest child, my nephew, who is six years old now, but was only two when they moved to the Bay Area. I was worried that he would see me as a stranger and we would not connect for my visit. I arrived at their house late in the evening, and the kids were already asleep, so I made my way to the guest bedroom and turned in. I woke up the next morning very early, before the family, not wanting to be a bother, as they went about their routine. I made up the bed and started reading a book I had brought along. Soon enough, the house was full of chatter as my nieces got ready for school and their parents got the day started. In the midst of all this, my nephew, upon learning that I had arrived, came running into the guest bedroom and immediately climbed up into my lap. He was very happy to see me, and we spent the morning reading books together and finding funny memes on my phone. When his mom came to help him get ready for school, he hugged me a promised that he would home later so we could play with his Legos. Having been recently severed from the person who was closest to me, I had been feeling a void. And while the innocent love of a child didn’t repair that, it did go a long way to putting me on a better path, which I'm still pursuing." Thank you for that. And, just what a beautiful reminder of the, of the, the power of love and human connection and vulnerability, and, um, letting other people love us, even if it's a fucking six-year-old kid that wants to, to play with Legos. It's still love, and it's still human connection and, um … you know. Even animals. God, there's so many people whose lives have been saved by a pet that … they feel validated by, that they feel seen by, that they feel, like, needs them. And, um … yeah. It's all about connection. And ice cream. And unfrosted Pop Tarts (chuckles). I've got some unfrosted blueberry on the way from a kind listener. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed, uh, this week's episode. And if you're out there and you're struggling, just remember you are not alone. And thanks for listening.

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