Ok, mod note time. From now on, if you didn't watch his replays, then don't post. [H] threads are supposed to be replay analyses and this is turning into a bio vs mech discussion instead of analysis of his replays. Bans for further offenses.

Ghostdav Profile Blog Joined August 2011 Canada 129 Posts Last Edited: 2012-09-23 03:26:55 #1



To begin, I'm a diamond level NA Terran. Recently, I've gotten sick of how TvP works so I thought I'd try to mech vs Toss. After trying a few games with Lynna's TvP strategy, I wasn't entirely sold on the idea, so I gave up.



Now I'm back, and I discovered audiobuilds.com. On their site, they have a TvP build that is MkP's Triple reactor Hellion build.



I tried it a couple times and I've decided that I really like it. Now, I'd like to spend a few moments with you and try to analyze my games, and what the protoss could have done to beat my build. To be honest with you, I don't understand why I'm winning.



I'll come out of a game not feeling that I've won because I outmaneuvered them strategically, and I'm genuinely confused as to why I've won. I'll be analyzing three games, with mostly the same results.



To begin.



Paladin vs. Nebula Ohana LE:



Now in this game I think what won me the game is how active I am with the Hellions. I end up killing 30+ workers, and in a panic, he amoves into my army, and with thors and repairing scvs I hold it off fine.



Paladin vs. Hunjoo Daybreak:



In this game once again I think what gives me a huge advantage is that I kill 27 workers with Hellion runbys. Even with incredibly poor army control, I manage to wipe out his stalker immortal force with thor tank hellion.



Paladin vs farseer: Cloud Kingdonm:



This game is slightly different. I once again kill a good amount of probes, but much later. My opponent also decides to go for Carriers, a move which I feel was wrong, especially when he pushed out. Due to my mass hellions, his huge army of zealots became useless, and allowed my thors to rip everything else apart. I chose to make mass thor instead of a tank heavy style, as I saw the starport ahead of time.



In conclusion: I feel that hellions are an integral part of this build early game AND late game, and the three reactored factories allow you to a)For some strange reason deal with immortals pretty well, and

b) kill workers/tank zealots.



I'd love to write a guide after I experiment more, but more importantly, what should the protosses have done to counter my build? Mass immortal? Or does my fast macro build not allow them enough room to mass immortals in time for my 2/2 200/200 push.



I'd love your analyses.



Cheers Hey all, I hope this is the correct forum for this, if not, mods, feel free to remove it.To begin, I'm a diamond level NA Terran. Recently, I've gotten sick of how TvP works so I thought I'd try to mech vs Toss. After trying a few games with Lynna's TvP strategy, I wasn't entirely sold on the idea, so I gave up.Now I'm back, and I discovered audiobuilds.com. On their site, they have a TvP build that is MkP's Triple reactor Hellion build.I tried it a couple times and I've decided that I really like it. Now, I'd like to spend a few moments with you and try to analyze my games, and what the protoss could have done to beat my build. To be honest with you, I don't understand why I'm winning.I'll come out of a game not feeling that I've won because I outmaneuvered them strategically, and I'm genuinely confused as to why I've won. I'll be analyzing three games, with mostly the same results.To begin.Paladin vs. Nebula Ohana LE: http://drop.sc/256867 Now in this game I think what won me the game is how active I am with the Hellions. I end up killing 30+ workers, and in a panic, he amoves into my army, and with thors and repairing scvs I hold it off fine.Paladin vs. Hunjoo Daybreak: http://drop.sc/256868 In this game once again I think what gives me a huge advantage is that I kill 27 workers with Hellion runbys. Even with incredibly poor army control, I manage to wipe out his stalker immortal force with thor tank hellion.Paladin vs farseer: Cloud Kingdonm: http://drop.sc/256869 This game is slightly different. I once again kill a good amount of probes, but much later. My opponent also decides to go for Carriers, a move which I feel was wrong, especially when he pushed out. Due to my mass hellions, his huge army of zealots became useless, and allowed my thors to rip everything else apart. I chose to make mass thor instead of a tank heavy style, as I saw the starport ahead of time.In conclusion: I feel that hellions are an integral part of this build early game AND late game, and the three reactored factories allow you to a)For some strange reason deal with immortals pretty well, andb) kill workers/tank zealots.I'd love to write a guide after I experiment more, but more importantly, what should the protosses have done to counter my build? Mass immortal? Or does my fast macro build not allow them enough room to mass immortals in time for my 2/2 200/200 push.I'd love your analyses.Cheers It's quite alright, goodbye for now.

Ghostdav Profile Blog Joined August 2011 Canada 129 Posts Last Edited: 2012-09-23 03:27:52 #2 Also, do you feel that I'm winning because I'm better than my toss opponents, and at a higher level my build could be countered easily? I also realize that this build will lose to most early timings. It's quite alright, goodbye for now.

Defeat Profile Joined March 2010 United States 476 Posts Last Edited: 2012-09-23 04:06:59 #3 Looks like your winning due to most Protoss not being familiar with how to counter mech since most Terrans go bio. Your opponents seem worse to you because of that. In the Hunjoo game once you showed your Hellions your opponents mindset completely fell appart it seemed. And in the game where you killed 30+ workers your opponent had the right idea for his composition and would have won that final fight if he had the econ of those 30+ workers still behind him.

"the metagame has really evolved to the point where the best chance to win the metagame is to game the metagame" -Bags

j.k.l Profile Joined September 2012 112 Posts #4 Nothing beats a mech army straight up ~ Spirit will set you free ~

ThePianoDentist Profile Joined July 2011 United Kingdom 521 Posts #5 On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



nothing beats a ghostmech army straight up. nothing beats a ghostmech army straight up. Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss

Ghostdav Profile Blog Joined August 2011 Canada 129 Posts #6 On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then? Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then? It's quite alright, goodbye for now.

Nightmarjoo Profile Blog Joined October 2006 United States 2960 Posts #7 On September 23 2012 13:32 Ghostdav wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then? Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then?

Because when they do try to mech they go Tank/hellion and lose either to a base trade or to being attacked while unsieged. Tank/hellion isn't the best way to mech tvp so they're giving themselves a handicap and often lose as result, discouraging them from trying it more. Because when they do try to mech they go Tank/hellion and lose either to a base trade or to being attacked while unsieged. Tank/hellion isn't the best way to mech tvp so they're giving themselves a handicap and often lose as result, discouraging them from trying it more. aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat

ThePianoDentist Profile Joined July 2011 United Kingdom 521 Posts Last Edited: 2012-09-23 05:01:26 #8 On September 23 2012 13:32 Ghostdav wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then? Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then?



youd have to ask them. i would say probably the immobility, if you attack the protoss player can just walk around your army and basetrade, and if the map is decent enough sized the protoss will have a far off expansion he can evacuate his probes to meaning the terran comes off far worse in a basetrade. the require on having a big enough army and maybe planetaries to halve the map means you just cant attack in the midgame or early late game at all (i guess there are exceptions)



you cant control the game and you cant be aggressive (except from harrass), you have no way to punish the protoss. if the protoss does a semi-all-in and fails when playing with bio there are almost always timing that you can hit to just crush him and punish him for trying to 6 gate, 2 base colossi all-in etc. whereas with a mechy style, if he goes for some kind of semi-all-in bust, even if you hold there are no major timing windows to be able to punish him, it just means you are more likely to survive until lategame where the early game advantages you had are now smoothed out.



also even masters protosses just often react really poorly to styles they dont come across often. Many seem to try and bust you attacking into heavily fortified positions, or player super safe thinking its some kind of all-in; when really they can just take a really early third and even 4th and just gain a super economy. i feel like most of the games i win i do so by the protoss player getting bored and just a moving into me losing a 200 supply army for about 20/30 of my supply.



also if you win a battle with bio you can often snipe and expansion or do some damage and pretty much win the game, but with mech styles if you win a battle and then try and counterattack you often just get obliterated if the protoss is good enough to have a high gateway count, and if you lose your army once you lose the game essentially.



edit:forgot to add, if you want to play greedy and do an economic opening in tvp, you have to get two raxes after your cc and make marines otherwise there are some all-ins you just die to. I tried going gasless expo into double gas but i just dont think 4 gate warp prism, or proxy void ray can be held doing that, if it can please enlighten me



youd have to ask them. i would say probably the immobility, if you attack the protoss player can just walk around your army and basetrade, and if the map is decent enough sized the protoss will have a far off expansion he can evacuate his probes to meaning the terran comes off far worse in a basetrade. the require on having a big enough army and maybe planetaries to halve the map means you just cant attack in the midgame or early late game at all (i guess there are exceptions)you cant control the game and you cant be aggressive (except from harrass), you have no way to punish the protoss. if the protoss does a semi-all-in and fails when playing with bio there are almost always timing that you can hit to just crush him and punish him for trying to 6 gate, 2 base colossi all-in etc. whereas with a mechy style, if he goes for some kind of semi-all-in bust, even if you hold there are no major timing windows to be able to punish him, it just means you are more likely to survive until lategame where the early game advantages you had are now smoothed out.also even masters protosses just often react really poorly to styles they dont come across often. Many seem to try and bust you attacking into heavily fortified positions, or player super safe thinking its some kind of all-in; when really they can just take a really early third and even 4th and just gain a super economy. i feel like most of the games i win i do so by the protoss player getting bored and just a moving into me losing a 200 supply army for about 20/30 of my supply.also if you win a battle with bio you can often snipe and expansion or do some damage and pretty much win the game, but with mech styles if you win a battle and then try and counterattack you often just get obliterated if the protoss is good enough to have a high gateway count, and if you lose your army once you lose the game essentially.edit:forgot to add, if you want to play greedy and do an economic opening in tvp, you have to get two raxes after your cc and make marines otherwise there are some all-ins you just die to. I tried going gasless expo into double gas but i just dont think 4 gate warp prism, or proxy void ray can be held doing that, if it can please enlighten me Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss

SuperYo1000 Profile Joined July 2008 United States 879 Posts #9 On September 23 2012 13:49 Nightmarjoo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 23 2012 13:32 Ghostdav wrote:

On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then? Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then?

Because when they do try to mech they go Tank/hellion and lose either to a base trade or to being attacked while unsieged. Tank/hellion isn't the best way to mech tvp so they're giving themselves a handicap and often lose as result, discouraging them from trying it more. Because when they do try to mech they go Tank/hellion and lose either to a base trade or to being attacked while unsieged. Tank/hellion isn't the best way to mech tvp so they're giving themselves a handicap and often lose as result, discouraging them from trying it more.





this is pretty much it. its mobility is so weak and if caught off guard your melted this is pretty much it. its mobility is so weak and if caught off guard your melted

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 2939 Posts #10 Two things: first, you're playing a style that most people are unused to playing against. Second, you're just better than your opponents. I don't think this will work as well at a higher level, where players are better at adapting to novel playstyles. Keep using it until it stops working is what I say. There's no reason to change things up if they're getting you above a 50% winrate. Only people who insist on you conforming will say anything otherwise. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 2939 Posts #11 On September 23 2012 14:41 SuperYo1000 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 23 2012 13:49 Nightmarjoo wrote:

On September 23 2012 13:32 Ghostdav wrote:

On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then? Why don't more pros experiment with mech and ghostmech then?

Because when they do try to mech they go Tank/hellion and lose either to a base trade or to being attacked while unsieged. Tank/hellion isn't the best way to mech tvp so they're giving themselves a handicap and often lose as result, discouraging them from trying it more. Because when they do try to mech they go Tank/hellion and lose either to a base trade or to being attacked while unsieged. Tank/hellion isn't the best way to mech tvp so they're giving themselves a handicap and often lose as result, discouraging them from trying it more.





this is pretty much it. its mobility is so weak and if caught off guard your melted this is pretty much it. its mobility is so weak and if caught off guard your melted

It's also that it's really hard to transition into Mech. Taking a third base with Tank/Hellion is tough to defend against a lot of Protoss timings, and getting enough gas to support Ghostmech is a real challenge. By the time your army is properly prepared, Protoss will often have enough of an econ lead to shut you down very effectively. Protoss Mass Warpgates is a very, VERY strong lategame and gets online so much faster than the Terran Orbital econ that it's really rough for Terran to pull through. Battle Hellions and Widow Mines should help with a lot of that, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what HotS brings us. It's also that it's really hard to transition into Mech. Taking a third base with Tank/Hellion is tough to defend against a lot of Protoss timings, and getting enough gas to support Ghostmech is a real challenge. By the time your army is properly prepared, Protoss will often have enough of an econ lead to shut you down very effectively. Protoss Mass Warpgates is a very, VERY strong lategame and gets online so much faster than the Terran Orbital econ that it's really rough for Terran to pull through. Battle Hellions and Widow Mines should help with a lot of that, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what HotS brings us. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #12 On September 23 2012 14:52 Acritter wrote:

Two things: first, you're playing a style that most people are unused to playing against. Second, you're just better than your opponents. I don't think this will work as well at a higher level, where players are better at adapting to novel playstyles. Keep using it until it stops working is what I say. There's no reason to change things up if they're getting you above a 50% winrate. Only people who insist on you conforming will say anything otherwise.



I don't think people lose because they are unused to it. You need to be really good to deal with Mech as Protoss, as you cannot let the Terran max and if he maxes, you should have 2more bases than him.

It's really not as easy as "just build zealots and archons and immortals and roflstomp the Terran", as some people put it and I do believe that only high level multitasking dismantles mech - something you will not find until high masters. I don't think people lose because they are unused to it. You need to be really good to deal with Mech as Protoss, as you cannot let the Terran max and if he maxes, you should have 2more bases than him.It's really not as easy as "just build zealots and archons and immortals and roflstomp the Terran", as some people put it and I do believe that only high level multitasking dismantles mech - something you will not find until high masters.

Halcyondaze Profile Joined January 2011 United States 508 Posts #13 Mech can work if you get the right engagement, just very hard to do

ZjiublingZ Profile Joined September 2011 United Arab Emirates 439 Posts #14 I don't play MKP's build, but the one I have seen ST.Hack do in TSL twice, which is also Hellion heavy. You get 3 Reactored Factories on 2 bases and 5 after that. I do feel a very heavy Hellion style is integral to Mech right now. To deal with the two toughest units in the MU, as you said, Zealots and Immortals. Especially when dealing with mass warp ins. That said, I still think there are key timings the Protoss can hit that you will have an extremely hard time with. First, Blink Stalker timings are very rough, even if you can defend, they can expand behind them and get a much faster third. Of course this is map dependent. After that, I think you are vulnerable to Colossus, Immortal, Chargelot compositions. If the Protoss has 3+ Robo's, and can keep most of their Colossus alive in engagements, they can quickly create a very strong army against yours by Chronoing Immortals and continually warping in Zealots. This is why I have found it's critical you transition into Battlecruisers once you get on 4 bases. So usually I will hit a maxed timing push with 2/2 after establishing my 4th (planetary fortress), with 3 fact tech labs, 5 fact reactors, and 1 reactored starport and 1 rax for ghosts, and it is necessary to trade very well with this push or do good economic damage and pull back. If you do, I have found you can turtle from there, build a BC, Siege Tank, Ghost, Hellion army, and often win the game from there. If you stick on a pure ground composition they will be able to recreate a better army than you in my experience.

Rufiuss Profile Joined September 2012 New Zealand 1 Post #15 How would you deal with early void rays though? 4 marines would not be able to hold including only having one barracks?

Sweetness.751 Profile Joined April 2011 United States 225 Posts #16 Hellions are stupidly strong. I am not surprised that you won all of these games. Protoss has to play like you are Zerg and wall off. If he doesn't play perfectly, he just dies. Hellions are dirt cheap and kill workers faster than any unit. Even then, you are 1 Starport away from just doing hellion drops, behind mass expanding as Terran. I don't understand why Terrans don't do more of it, while building an unbeatable mech army.



Why Terrans don't build the only all mineral AoE unit in the game is beyond me. And I'm glad for it.



Little known fact. If toss were to go blink Stalkers off of 2 base and Terran were to go mass Hellions, the Terran will still win a straight up fight because of the AoE. Now imagine that the Terran is even decent at harassing during this time? Its lights out for toss.



Mech is more than viable, in the right hands. Elentos wrote: Do you think only 10 life points more for Viking is enough bObA wrote: 10 life points is all you need to send someone to the Shadow Realm.

Tankz123 Profile Joined December 2011 Denmark 228 Posts #17 The issue with mech, is that tanks are just really really bad. You need to constantly harras with helion/banshee to stay on even footing with the protoss and eventually overpower them in numbers.



I've played pure mech pvt for a good amount of time now, and while it works sometimes, it usually ends up with "enemy gets 10 immortals + archons, amoves your tanks, you're dead" or "enemy gets carriers that you didn't spot, you're dead".



ïve tried ghost mech a bit, but the problem with that is that you need 4-5 bases to even have the gas for it, and most of the time if you land the EMP, they just pull back, you unseiged your tanks and they roll all over you - if the zealots/archon/immortals connect and you're unsieged, you're dead.



instead of ghost, i've decided to mix in a lot of banshees and eventually BC's - what usually happens in engaments is that i lose my 20+ tanks, kill all the stalkers and have my banshee/bc clean up the rest - its not pretty, but i dont really see any other way of making it work tbh.



@ the OP: I can see the build working out a few times, but if people catch on and know how to react (sim-city, fast expanding and push when they get 2-3 colo's), it'll get rolled over.

BongChambers Profile Joined September 2012 Canada 365 Posts #18 Are you kidding me? Mech is the only way you can win vs Protoss nowadays.



Seriously, everysingle Terran player in the last 10 games I've played has gotten DESTORYED by me when they go anything BUT mech. And its always the same junk, 2 rax early push, 3 rax into 2 medi with expand into 5-7 rax blah blah blah. Its so easy to beat Terran bio, not to mention more then half never both for ghost which just makes me lol as I eat their army in one battle.



SC2 is getting to the point where people are starting to understand the meta game and what not and expanding it a lot more. Select bio style is outdated and quite frankly noob at this point in the stages, you never see pure Terran bio beating a half decent Protoss player. And because so many Terrans are horrible at the game and have to go bio simply to win 40% of thier games, very few people mech and as such Protoss players and including myself are not use to Terran mech in any sense. Like helion drops or banshee play into Marine Tank and Raven's.



Mech is the shit and people are starting to realize it. 420

Saechiis Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Netherlands 4080 Posts #19 On September 23 2012 18:21 Sweetness.751 wrote:

Hellions are stupidly strong. I am not surprised that you won all of these games. Protoss has to play like you are Zerg and wall off. If he doesn't play perfectly, he just dies. Hellions are dirt cheap and kill workers faster than any unit. Even then, you are 1 Starport away from just doing hellion drops, behind mass expanding as Terran. I don't understand why Terrans don't do more of it, while building an unbeatable mech army.



Why Terrans don't build the only all mineral AoE unit in the game is beyond me. And I'm glad for it.



Little known fact. If toss were to go blink Stalkers off of 2 base and Terran were to go mass Hellions, the Terran will still win a straight up fight because of the AoE. Now imagine that the Terran is even decent at harassing during this time? Its lights out for toss.



Mech is more than viable, in the right hands.



Hellions are great for economy harass, problem is they can't fight for shit when Protoss doesn't get greedy and all-ins you or expands with a good unit count. If Protoss knew what you were doing or just decided to do a blind timing, you can't stop it with hellions. Hellions are great for economy harass, problem is they can't fight for shit when Protoss doesn't get greedy and all-ins you or expands with a good unit count. If Protoss knew what you were doing or just decided to do a blind timing, you can't stop it with hellions. I think esports is pretty nice.

acrimoneyius Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 983 Posts #20 On September 23 2012 13:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 23 2012 13:16 j.k.l wrote:

Nothing beats a mech army straight up



nothing beats a ghostmech army straight up. nothing beats a ghostmech army straight up.



Even if this were the case (it's not), your opponent never has to engage you. An army with mostly siege tanks needs to be together at all times because of immortals and warp mechanic.



Then again, you can go almost any unit composition in any league below masters. Even if this were the case (it's not), your opponent never has to engage you. An army with mostly siege tanks needs to be together at all times because of immortals and warp mechanic.Then again, you can go almost any unit composition in any league below masters.

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