Gouka Profile Joined April 2014 Brazil 11 Posts #121 That would be awesome! JinAir sOs

Bagration Profile Blog Joined October 2011 United States 18141 Posts #122 On September 16 2014 07:00 fronkschnonk wrote:

problem is, rewarding PL with WCS-Points would be unfair within the korean scene:



1. If you're living in korea, not playing on a rich foreign or a Proleague-Team, you're fucked up

2. If you're a mediocre star of a weak team (MKP and Creator), you'll get sent out quite often while a top player on a really strong team might get sent out less because of high in-team competition

3. There is no clear way to qualify for playing in PL if you're in a participating team. The coach decides, not the players skill in the moment of competition



Of course good PL-Players would benefit from this and it would be fair in the global scene skillwise. But potentially good players that have no legit way to proof their skill wouldn't benefit from this despite being perhaps just as skilled.



There's no perfect system since the scene is so fragmented and all. For example, we see that well-traveled players like Hyun, Taeja or Jaedong score big in the current system, but aside from Taeja it would be hard to say that they are the world's best players.



There are always going to be inequities There's no perfect system since the scene is so fragmented and all. For example, we see that well-traveled players like Hyun, Taeja or Jaedong score big in the current system, but aside from Taeja it would be hard to say that they are the world's best players.There are always going to be inequities Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever

Lunareste Profile Joined July 2011 United States 3590 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-15 23:08:10 #123 If the aim of the Blizzcon WCS tournament is to find the 16 most skilled players in the world, then the results from this year's competitions irrevocably proves that a change is needed.



It's a shame that some of the best players in the world, KeSPA's most famous and skilled aces, are not well represented in WCS standings because it is without doubt that they are the most skilled players in their world.



Their nature of the sponsor's priorities and the limited, extremely difficult nature of earning WCS points in the Korean region is the biggest problem with the WCS system right now. It's inarguable that the system does not account for how much more difficult it is to earn points in the KR region. Players would love to go to weekend tournaments and destroy foreigners to get easy WCS points, but the reality is that due to KeSPA's interests, teams are not allowed to ship their players around the world them when their sponsorship companies place the highest priority on Proleague.



Some may say "Well, why don't their quit their teams, join a foreign team, fly around the world earning WCS points in tournaments instead?" We answer ourselves, why should the best players in the world leave their salaried, stable jobs to game a points system that leads against its own directive (16 best players at Blizzcon)?



The solution is not to destroy the structure of the Korean team houses and tournaments; instead, we should build a system which accounts for the reality of the scene and not a far-fetched ideal where the stars of the most skilled region should give up their legacies and livelihoods to earn positions in an end of year tournament which they, as the best Starcraft players, belong in.



Fans need to realize that the lifestyle and stability of being on a sponsored team in Korea has predated the WCS system. Pro-gamers should not have to give up their hard earned, stable homes and salaries to accommodate a system that results has proven broken. The stability and structure of these team houses is what every region should be looking to build, not destroy.



At least eight of the current top sixteen of WCS do not belong there if our aim is to accumulate the best players in the world for our end of season tournament. It is unrealistic to expect Proleague's stars to fly around the world to play in non-WCS tournaments that award points. Instead, we should allow KeSPA's stars the same opportunity that NA/EU pros enjoy and design a system which will earn them as many points as a foreign star such as Jaedong, MC or San would through non-WCS events. KT FlaSh FOREVER

Sjokola Profile Joined November 2010 Netherlands 797 Posts #124 A lot of people are looking at this all wrong. Arguments like "It's a team league and wcs is not." Is by itself not a good reason.



First we need to establish what the goal of the blizzcon/wcs final is. If it's to host a tournament with this years best players than there's a reason for awarding points to PL. There are a lot of good players there who don't get the opportunity to play in a lot of wcs points awarding tournaments. Whether it's the fault of kespa, the teams, tournament organizers or Blizzard doesn't really matter. We're working towards a goal.

If the goal is to have the top players from each region play each other. Well we pretty much got that already imo. (5AM, 6EU, 5KR). I thinks it's really that simple what is our goal how do we get there.



tl;dr If we want the best players in the world at Blizzcon yes. If we want an AM vs EU vs KR then no.

ninjamyst Profile Joined September 2010 United States 1903 Posts #125 Is Blizzcon about the top BEST players in terms of skills or top POPULAR players that are also very good (but may not be the best)?? I rather watch popular players than relatively unknown "best" players. You have to think "general" audience. Alot of people posting here wanting to see the "best" in skills are only a small percentage of Blizzard's target audience...

astray71 Profile Joined February 2012 United States 304 Posts #126 I would rather give points based off of individual win record. Like the top 20 players get points? D There is no victory without the blessing of god, and there is no god but Madlife.

Lunareste Profile Joined July 2011 United States 3590 Posts #127 On September 16 2014 08:33 ninjamyst wrote:

Is Blizzcon about the top BEST players in terms of skills or top POPULAR players that are also very good (but may not be the best)?? I rather watch popular players than relatively unknown "best" players. You have to think "general" audience. Alot of people posting here wanting to see the "best" in skills are only a small percentage of Blizzard's target audience...



Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.



That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament. Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament. KT FlaSh FOREVER

WombaT Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Northern Ireland 14273 Posts #128 I am surprised this isn't mentioned more often, but there are flaws with any methodology you adopt.



I've long thought a complete calendar rework is worth a shot. Coordinating may prove impossible, but a rigidly defined season with chunks allocated for Proleague, WCS events and weekend tournaments could prove beneficial.



With say, a defined period for Proleague this would let Kespa players focus on it, with the potential of travelling once that period elapses. As things stand tournaments all overlap and players frequently have to prioritise tournaments rather too often for my tastes. 'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat

brickrd Profile Blog Joined March 2014 United States 4894 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-15 23:58:17 #129 On September 16 2014 08:41 Lunareste wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 16 2014 08:33 ninjamyst wrote:

Is Blizzcon about the top BEST players in terms of skills or top POPULAR players that are also very good (but may not be the best)?? I rather watch popular players than relatively unknown "best" players. You have to think "general" audience. Alot of people posting here wanting to see the "best" in skills are only a small percentage of Blizzard's target audience...



Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.



That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament. Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament.

what is the point of blizzcon then? is there a source of blizzard literally saying "the point of blizzcon is to host the 16 most skilled players"?



awarding points based on separate competitions players can choose to attend or not attend or may have issues attending is never ever going to result in "the 16 most skilled players." the best you could do for that would be an invitational and that would open up even more of a shitstorm when the community thinks the #16 spot should have gone to #17 or gripes about no chance for foreigners etc what is the point of blizzcon then? is there a source of blizzard literally saying "the point of blizzcon is to host the 16 most skilled players"?awarding points based on separate competitions players can choose to attend or not attend or may have issues attending is never ever going to result in "the 16 most skilled players." the best you could do for that would be an invitational and that would open up even more of a shitstorm when the community thinks the #16 spot should have gone to #17 or gripes about no chance for foreigners etc

RiSkysc2 Profile Joined September 2011 684 Posts #130 There are actually people who think this is a bad idea? What.........

Dodgin Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 38851 Posts #131 On September 16 2014 08:43 Wombat_NI wrote:

I am surprised this isn't mentioned more often, but there are flaws with any methodology you adopt.



I've long thought a complete calendar rework is worth a shot. Coordinating may prove impossible, but a rigidly defined season with chunks allocated for Proleague, WCS events and weekend tournaments could prove beneficial.



With say, a defined period for Proleague this would let Kespa players focus on it, with the potential of travelling once that period elapses. As things stand tournaments all overlap and players frequently have to prioritise tournaments rather too often for my tastes.



Good point, the Proleague season currently begins right before the new WCS year and ends about 2-3 months before Blizzcon. Not much time to make use of their freedom from PL. Good point, the Proleague season currently begins right before the new WCS year and ends about 2-3 months before Blizzcon. Not much time to make use of their freedom from PL.

Fanatic-Templar Profile Joined February 2010 Canada 4373 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-16 00:12:09 #132 On September 16 2014 08:55 brickrd wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 16 2014 08:41 Lunareste wrote:

On September 16 2014 08:33 ninjamyst wrote:

Is Blizzcon about the top BEST players in terms of skills or top POPULAR players that are also very good (but may not be the best)?? I rather watch popular players than relatively unknown "best" players. You have to think "general" audience. Alot of people posting here wanting to see the "best" in skills are only a small percentage of Blizzard's target audience...



Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.



That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament. Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament.

what is the point of blizzcon then? is there a source of blizzard literally saying "the point of blizzcon is to host the 16 most skilled players"?



awarding points based on separate competitions players can choose to attend or not attend or may have issues attending is never ever going to result in "the 16 most skilled players." the best you could do for that would be an invitational and that would open up even more of a shitstorm when the community thinks the #16 spot should have gone to #17 or gripes about no chance for foreigners etc what is the point of blizzcon then? is there a source of blizzard literally saying "the point of blizzcon is to host the 16 most skilled players"?awarding points based on separate competitions players can choose to attend or not attend or may have issues attending is never ever going to result in "the 16 most skilled players." the best you could do for that would be an invitational and that would open up even more of a shitstorm when the community thinks the #16 spot should have gone to #17 or gripes about no chance for foreigners etc



"After much discussion and collaboration with our partners, we've developed a new tournament series with a cohesive structure and unified global point ranking system that ties major StarCraft II competition together. The StarCraft II WCS will give eSports fans an exciting, globe-circling story to follow throughout the year



[...]



Using a unified ranking system to track player performance across multiple seasons and events will help make it easier to clearly identify the world's best StarCraft II players, and make it so everyone can follow along with their favorite players as stories and events unfold. Every match will carry added excitement, and every outcome will be more meaningful."



Battle.net



From my understanding, they just wanted to tie all the already existing tournaments together.



EDIT: Allow me to clarify: it seems that the point of WCS is to encourage players and viewers alike to pay attention to the various tournaments going on in the StarCraft II scene by giving those tournaments additional value as a qualification method for Blizzcon, and thus helping to sustain the scene. By this understanding Blizzcon exists specifically to discourage players from staying in their corner and not participating in the overall scene. In other words, what people are criticising most about it is specifically its reason for existing. From my understanding, they just wanted to tie all the already existing tournaments together.Allow me to clarify: it seems that the point of WCS is to encourage players and viewers alike to pay attention to the various tournaments going on in thescene by giving those tournaments additional value as a qualification method for Blizzcon, and thus helping to sustain the scene. By this understanding Blizzcon exists specifically to discourage players from staying in their corner and not participating in the overall scene. In other words, what people are criticising most about it is specifically its reason for existing. I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.

hesho89 Profile Joined August 2011 Canada 106 Posts #133 i think this is horrible...



if kespa wants to get more wcs points, they should make more tourneys in korea i think... It would also provide more tourneys in korea in general which can only help the scene there. eh?

Shinespark Profile Joined June 2011 Chile 843 Posts #134 I approve of anything that helps the ailing korean scene "I, for one, welcome our new Korean overlords."

TotalBiscuit Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 5415 Posts #135 I'm obviously against this from a team point of view. Running a Proleague team is something that isn't financially viable to anyone who doesn't have a big KeSPA sponsor in my honest opinion. While it might compensate for not sending proleague players out of the country to foreign events, it also forces non-Proleague teams to fly out to more foreign events to keep up, not to mention the nonsensical nature of giving out WCS individual points for team efforts.



2015 - Year of "Lets see how many ways we can screw Axiom". Let me know if there's anything else so we can start transitioning to Hearthstone or something. Commentator Host of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft

Crot4le Profile Joined June 2013 England 2927 Posts #136 On September 15 2014 20:00 shabby wrote:

Much rather have more individual tournaments based in Korea, than rewarding WCS points for something that has nothing to do with individual performances, and that 99% of players cannot participate in (no, its not the same as MLG/DH/IEM, because everyone "can" participate, if they travel).



Exactly. Awarding WCS points for Proleague is not the solution to this problem, another individual league to complement GSL is. Exactly. Awarding WCS points for Proleague is not the solution to this problem, another individual league to complement GSL is. Massive fan of Axiom eSports | Crotale#992 | Twitter: @Crot4le

Silvana Profile Blog Joined September 2013 3713 Posts #137 On September 16 2014 09:06 Fanatic-Templar wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 16 2014 08:55 brickrd wrote:

On September 16 2014 08:41 Lunareste wrote:

On September 16 2014 08:33 ninjamyst wrote:

Is Blizzcon about the top BEST players in terms of skills or top POPULAR players that are also very good (but may not be the best)?? I rather watch popular players than relatively unknown "best" players. You have to think "general" audience. Alot of people posting here wanting to see the "best" in skills are only a small percentage of Blizzard's target audience...



Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.



That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament. Then watch streams and Dreamhack, IEM, etc.That's not the point of the Blizzcon tournament.

what is the point of blizzcon then? is there a source of blizzard literally saying "the point of blizzcon is to host the 16 most skilled players"?



awarding points based on separate competitions players can choose to attend or not attend or may have issues attending is never ever going to result in "the 16 most skilled players." the best you could do for that would be an invitational and that would open up even more of a shitstorm when the community thinks the #16 spot should have gone to #17 or gripes about no chance for foreigners etc what is the point of blizzcon then? is there a source of blizzard literally saying "the point of blizzcon is to host the 16 most skilled players"?awarding points based on separate competitions players can choose to attend or not attend or may have issues attending is never ever going to result in "the 16 most skilled players." the best you could do for that would be an invitational and that would open up even more of a shitstorm when the community thinks the #16 spot should have gone to #17 or gripes about no chance for foreigners etc



"After much discussion and collaboration with our partners, we've developed a new tournament series with a cohesive structure and unified global point ranking system that ties major StarCraft II competition together. The StarCraft II WCS will give eSports fans an exciting, globe-circling story to follow throughout the year



[...]



Using a unified ranking system to track player performance across multiple seasons and events will help make it easier to clearly identify the world's best StarCraft II players, and make it so everyone can follow along with their favorite players as stories and events unfold. Every match will carry added excitement, and every outcome will be more meaningful."



Battle.net



From my understanding, they just wanted to tie all the already existing tournaments together.



EDIT: Allow me to clarify: it seems that the point of WCS is to encourage players and viewers alike to pay attention to the various tournaments going on in the StarCraft II scene by giving those tournaments additional value as a qualification method for Blizzcon, and thus helping to sustain the scene. By this understanding Blizzcon exists specifically to discourage players from staying in their corner and not participating in the overall scene. In other words, what people are criticising most about it is specifically its reason for existing. From my understanding, they just wanted to tie all the already existing tournaments together.Allow me to clarify: it seems that the point of WCS is to encourage players and viewers alike to pay attention to the various tournaments going on in thescene by giving those tournaments additional value as a qualification method for Blizzcon, and thus helping to sustain the scene. By this understanding Blizzcon exists specifically to discourage players from staying in their corner and not participating in the overall scene. In other words, what people are criticising most about it is specifically its reason for existing.



So Blizzcon goals go directly against the fundamentals of Proleague. It's a shame imo, because I think the KR scene is what we should be looking up to develop in the foreign world, not to mention that Proleague is probably the only thing that keeps the KR scene together... So Blizzcon goals go directly against the fundamentals of Proleague. It's a shame imo, because I think the KR scene is what we should be looking up to develop in the foreign world, not to mention that Proleague is probably the only thing that keeps the KR scene together...

brickrd Profile Blog Joined March 2014 United States 4894 Posts #138 On September 16 2014 09:34 Crot4le wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 15 2014 20:00 shabby wrote:

Much rather have more individual tournaments based in Korea, than rewarding WCS points for something that has nothing to do with individual performances, and that 99% of players cannot participate in (no, its not the same as MLG/DH/IEM, because everyone "can" participate, if they travel).



Exactly. Awarding WCS points for Proleague is not the solution to this problem, another individual league to complement GSL is. Exactly. Awarding WCS points for Proleague is not the solution to this problem, another individual league to complement GSL is.

making posts like "the solution is to add another league" without actually going into details of who would create and sponsor the league is pointless. hey guys the solution isnt a region lock, its to invent teleportation so there are no regions anymore. why hasnt david kim invented teleportation yet



i think some fans need a reality check on how relevant this scene is, how much you can accomplish and when the right time is to compromise on the best solution thats actually possible rather than begging jesus for miracles making posts like "the solution is to add another league" without actually going into details of who would create and sponsor the league is pointless. hey guys the solution isnt a region lock, its to invent teleportation so there are no regions anymore. why hasnt david kim invented teleportation yeti think some fans need a reality check on how relevant this scene is, how much you can accomplish and when the right time is to compromise on the best solution thats actually possible rather than begging jesus for miracles

Crot4le Profile Joined June 2013 England 2927 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-16 00:43:28 #139 ) when he said that there will be more opportunities for Koreans to earn WCS points next year.



WCS points for Proleague is a ridiculous policy and a lazy band-aid over a problem which runs much deeper (not enough tournaments in Korea). Having WCS points in Proleague is also something that is going to influence the coaches' decisions that should not be relevant in a team league.

I was really hoping that the KeSPA president was hinting at a new individual league like GSL/OSL (rip) when he said that there will be more opportunities for Koreans to earn WCS points next year.WCS points for Proleague is a ridiculous policy and a lazy band-aid over a problem which runs much deeper (not enough tournaments in Korea). Having WCS points in Proleague is also something that is going to influence the coaches' decisions that should not be relevant in a team league. Massive fan of Axiom eSports | Crotale#992 | Twitter: @Crot4le

Crot4le Profile Joined June 2013 England 2927 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-16 01:15:04 #140 On September 16 2014 09:38 brickrd wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 16 2014 09:34 Crot4le wrote:

On September 15 2014 20:00 shabby wrote:

Much rather have more individual tournaments based in Korea, than rewarding WCS points for something that has nothing to do with individual performances, and that 99% of players cannot participate in (no, its not the same as MLG/DH/IEM, because everyone "can" participate, if they travel).



Exactly. Awarding WCS points for Proleague is not the solution to this problem, another individual league to complement GSL is. Exactly. Awarding WCS points for Proleague is not the solution to this problem, another individual league to complement GSL is.

making posts like "the solution is to add another league" without actually going into details of who would create and sponsor the league is pointless. hey guys the solution isnt a region lock, its to invent teleportation so there are no regions anymore. why hasnt david kim invented teleportation yet



i think some fans need a reality check on how relevant this scene is, how much you can accomplish and when the right time is to compromise on the best solution thats actually possible rather than begging jesus for miracles hey guys the solution isnt a region lock, its to invent teleportation so there are no regions anymore. why hasnt david kim invented teleportation yeti think some fans need a reality check on how relevant this scene is, how much you can accomplish and when the right time is to compromise on the best solution thats actually possible rather than begging jesus for miracles



Blizzard in collaboration with KeSPA and SPOTV. It's Blizzard who have created this fragile situation in Korea with the implementation of a region lock so really it should be them who make sure the safeguard (new individual league) is in place to protect the Korean scene from this decision. Blizzard in collaboration with KeSPA and SPOTV. It's Blizzard who have created this fragile situation in Korea with the implementation of a region lock so really it should be them who make sure the safeguard (new individual league) is in place to protect the Korean scene from this decision. Massive fan of Axiom eSports | Crotale#992 | Twitter: @Crot4le

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