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2014’s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was a pretty big hit. It grossed $493 million worldwide off a $125 million budget, and while I wasn’t a fan of the movie, I completely understand why the studio greenlit and fast-tracked a sequel. That sequel, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows, drastically underperformed at the box office, going on to gross only $245 million, less than half of what the first film made.

Speaking to producers Andrew Form and Brad Fuller about their new movie, Ouija: Origin of Evil, Steve Weintraub asked to get their thoughts on TMNT 2, which they also produced. Form was circumspect on the matter, and walked us through their realization that the sequel was going to be a flop: