Hey folks, I did this interview for science reasons, but many of my friends were interested in it, so here it is online!

Tornike Zurabiani, age 21, musician living in Tskaltubo. I met him in his home village, called Tekali, located in Svaneti, Georgia.

Hubert Antokolski: How would you describe the rules of Saakashvili after the Rose Revolution and in later years? Do you think it had positive or negative impact on lives of ordinary Georgians?

Tornike Zurabiani: For me personally, Mikheil Saakashvili was a dream come true. The country was in big trouble and he was last hope for us. We had no gas, no electricity, no roads and nothing at all.

Saakashvili made a lot for country, but he and his party were just criminals. They terrorized businessmen, took money from them, discriminated everyone who were against them, terrorized and shut down several most popular televisions. Those which were in opposition to the regime obviously.

HA: What do you mean by criminals?

TZ: His government counts a lot of murdered youth who were protesting in the streets of Tbilisi and injured hundreds of citizens. All the time, when someone was protesting, police and special forces were shutting down all the roads,so that protesters couldn’t escape and they were beating them to death, evidences of this cases are everywhere in the Internet.

HA: And how do you remember Saakashvili himself?

TZ: There’s evidence that say Saakashvili was a regular drug user, cocaine user. At the same time marijuana users were sent to jail for life. It was very dangerous to stand against him. A lot of people were killed, beaten or left without job, just for not loving Saakashvili. My father almost lost his job because of a t-shirt.

HA: What t-shirt?

TZ: When i was a teenager I used to wear a t-shirt of one of the opposition parties. Some evening my father got a call from one of local government member. The guy said that one more time I wear that t-shirt, my father is out of job.

HA: And what about the war in Svaneti?

TZ: Svaneti is located just next to Abkhazia. I remember one story about Saakashvili’s attempts to protect our land. There’s a valley called Kodori that is located at the border of Abkhazia.

Local people, Svanetians, assembled an independent force that were defending the border from Russians, so that they couldn’t occupy further territories after the war in Abkhazia.

HA: And what was the reaction of Mr. President?

TZ: Saakashvili called this forces anti-government and started a war against them. These soldiers had to flee from country and borders were left without defence. Later the government renamed Kodori and new name was Lower Abkhazia. Abkhazian people claimed Kodori Valley, with argument that, if that’s Lower Abkhazia, it’s still Abkhazia and they took Kodori without firing single bullet.

HA: And what about economy?

TZ: It was Saakashvili’s regime when half of Georgia became so poor that, they had to flee to Greece and work as housekeepers and babysitters. Taking care of elderly people who couldn’t walk and eat without help. Half of women of Georgia left the country for that reason and lots of them they still live there. They send money to other members of family that stayed in Georgia.

HA: What’s your perception of changes that took place in Georgia for last 20 years?

TZ: Last 20 years of Georgia was very different, complicated and really hard to describe. In the 90’s civil war was running in the streets of Tbilisi, criminals were running in every corner. Everyone was stealing from each other. Then Saakashvili came and fought against criminals and it worked very well. That’s one of the good things Saakashvili had done. Sad thing is that from streets, criminals went to get place in the government.

HA: And then?

TZ: After all that Saakashvili did, there appeared Bidzina Ivanishvili, a billionaire, businessmen who was financing artists, during Saakashvili period he paid actors and actresses, musicians, police officers and so on. So he had good authority in the people and probably he was the only one who had financial resources to fight against Saakashvili. So he did and won. Main thing that made Saakashvili lose, was videotapes from prisons.

HA: What’s the story behind these tapes?

TZ: They were found in underground stores where police officers were keeping them. Tapes were seen by everyone through television and society were shocked with what they saw.

HA: What was recorded on them?

TZ: Officers raping prisoners that weren’t giving any information, or they just didn’t like one of them. They were raping hundreds of prisoners with different tools, beating to death, leaving them tied on beds of mortuary for days. Thousands of prisoners, even under eighteen years old prisoners were tortured during these years and someone was taking videos to show them to ministers of defence and internal affairs, as evidences that they were doing what they were told to do.

HA: And what was the consequences?

TZ: Saakashvili was judged for plenty of crimes and given several years in prison, but he escaped to Ukraine.

HA: How do you recall the situation in the 90s, the violence and anarchy. Can you tell me one most terrifying story that you’ve heard?

TZ: The 90’s was probably the worst part of Georgian history. People killing each other in the streets, terrorizing and taking things from each other. Anti-government force was formed called ‚Mkhedrioni’. They wanted to rule the country and started civil war. Fleed first president of Georgia out of country and destroyed capital of Georgia, Tbilisi. They were robbing everyone and killing all the people that were against them.

HA: Can you tell me one most terrifying story that you’ve heard?

TZ: There’s even a video tape on the Internet, when one group of Mkhedrioni takes out one member of a regular family and shoots him in the street, in front of his mother. Probably that’s the worst story.

HA: Who caused this situation?

TZ: This whole thing was caused by Russia. In 1991 Georgian citizens decides not to join ideas of Russia and didn’t join organization CIS (WNP), which made our neighbour very angry and he started to finance anti-government forces to cause damage and chaos in Georgia. Everything ended with first president of Georgia, escaping to Chechnya and with Abkhazian war, when Georgia was occupied and lost Abkhazia and Samachablo.

HA: Do you consider yourself more as a Georgian or Svanetian? Which identity is stronger for you and/or your colleagues?

TZ: Me personally consider myself as Svanetian first. But Georgian identity is stronger and comes with more privileges.

When I say I’m Svanetian, It already means that I’m Georgian. These two concepts can’t be separated. But the thing for me is about proportion. For example, I come from a little village Tekali, located in region Lentekhi in northern part of Georgia called Svaneti. When I’m in some other village of Lentekhi region, I say I’m from Tekali. When I’m in other regions of Svaneti, I say I’m from Lentekhi. And when I’m in other parts of Georgia, I say I’m from Svaneti and when I’m abroad, I say I’m from Georgia.

I can’t tell foreign people that I come from Tekali, because they won’t understand anything (laughs).