Kink said: First thing is first, well done on reqs. 33-7 is decent and I will speak to you as if you're someone who is decent. This post will not attack you as a player or your skill, because you're clearly someone who's not a charizardlover9000. Click to expand...

Kink said: Mega Bro is nothing special so far. In a tier where U-turn and Volt switch are everywhere, particularly the former, it makes it very difficult to function in its role(s). Mega Bro is supposed to function in two ways: (1) before it megas, it's supposed to work as basic Water-type tank. (2) it's supposed to serve as a wincon after its threats have been eliminated or at least chipped. Ironically, one of Mega Slowbro's greatest strengths is that it has a defensive pivot in its own pre-mega, which increases the amount of roles it can cover to 3. Now you have yourself a bulky Water-type that can serve reasonable utility purposes. It can check prominent offensive threats such as Azumarill, Cobalion, Weaker Scizor variants, and Terrakion. The Mega Evolution can as well, but again, the purpose of regenerator slowbro is to tank a hit and survive until the appropriate time for Mega Slowbro to eventually come in as a wincon. Click to expand...

Kink said: Here's where the problem starts and ends for Mega Bro: The entire point of Bulky Water Types in the last 2 generations is to tank hits and respond in kind with utility or setup. In this tier, there are other Psychic types that can utilize offensive prowess infinitely better, such as Azelf, Celebi, and most importantly Latias. There are other psychic types that provide similar if not better defensive coverage for setup opportunities, such as Reuniclus or Cresselia. As a Bulky Water, its psychic typing is a huge hinderance. This is what made reg Slowbro NU in the first place - it cannot compete in this tier as it stands. In this regard, in practical purposes it is outclassed by almost every other Water-type in the tier that perform similar roles, such as Suicune. Click to expand...

Kink said: Now is where I will address your points directly.



Latias, Gengar, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Mega Manectric and several other Special Attackers all force Mega Slowbro out. Yes, you can switch into Muk and pressure those mons, but what makes you think I'm not predicting that? All of these Special Attackers are pressured by Muk regardless, and it's not Mega Slowbro that's broken because of Muk's team support. You can replace Mega Bro with literally any Water Type not named Empoleon and Muk literally performs the exact same role against those special attackers. What this means is that there's zero centralization around the playstyle that MegaBro forces, and instead normal trends are simply used to handle this new threat. Click to expand...

Kink said: In response to your claim that I am biased, I say yes, I am. Every ladder player is biased. Bias is how people express their points of view and it is impossible to nullify. This is a game where your knowledge and experience come into play, and depending on how well you've mastered both pillars is what determines your chances of becoming a fantastic player. So you're right, no one can blame me because the fact that I'm willing to talk about 40 games (separate from my reqs) and give you replays to even my losses is a huge bonus to people like you - now you have the privilege of working with my biased experience as well as yours to make a decision. That's the entire point. Welcome to life - it's biased. Click to expand...

Kink said: I'll admit that xMarth's team is great (as usual, he's a fantastic player), but I think the overhype is definitely real. With all due respect, I don't think you're in a position to tell me that I don't know how to use mons properly or bring out their potential. I've been through 3 generations of tiering and have witnessed USUM develop since its infancy, including helping develop the tiering policies that we're currently using. If that doesn't make me at least somewhat qualified to offer a valid perspective, where do you think you stand? Don't be a hater gator. Click to expand...

Kink said: Mirror matches are not indicative of anything expect you being able to outplay your opponent with the same team. What this has to do with evaluating Mega Slowbro's strength I'll never understand. You guys are operating with identical initial conditions - what practical (biased) data do you hope to get from that? Which one scald burns first? like dude, you said it yourself luck was a huge factor in your game. This is a moot point. Click to expand...

Kink said: This was a fun game. It came down to a 50/50. It wasn't your Slowbro that held me to a leash, it was your Scizor. I predicted you to want to keep your Scizor, and switched into Hydreigon for the win. 50/50s are also not indicative of anything beyond your good instincts. Kudos for you for winning that game, but I'd strongly urge you to re-evaluate your position you think that game indicates anything about Mega Bro. I certainly didn't get anything from that game beyond another half-aneurism at losing. Click to expand...

Kink said: You're not using Banded Scizor properly if you think it's supposed to take care of a Water-type Tank, of any kind. You're not using Alolan Muk properly if you're trying to beat a Mega Bro in a one on one situation. Z-Thunder Latias is fine at +1 so I'm not sure what your concern is there. Us "pro-unbanners" pretty much just said that Bro is too passive a mon in this tier and that neither it or Mega Bro can put sufficient pressure on the tier to warrant any serious concerns. At the end of the day, tiers are comprised of interlocking webs. Everything effects everything - that's how a tier works. If one element is added to disrupt that web, it needs to be eliminated. Suicune is more of an annoyance with CM with utility like Roar, and Reuniclus is better as a straight up wincon due to its set flexibility. Let's ban those too, no? Cresselia is also extremely bulky, doesn't take up mega slot, has recovery, and has access to an item. Click to expand...

Kink said: Look man, just because the tier isn't used to a new version of a slow-ass bulky wincon, doesn't mean it's in any sense broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive. I urge you to reflect and play some more games with something you've built yourself so that you can show better and more definitive examples beyond the ones you've posted, because they're not good examples. Click to expand...

Kink said: PS:

Comments like these make me scared because you actually think Breloom is unhealthy and that's just a wrong opinion. Click to expand...

It makes me kinda sad to see how people actually agreed with all the meaningless points in the above post. I urge all of you to read my post carefully as I try to dissect what Kink is trying to say. And for the record, I harbor absolutely no animosity towards Kink, I respect him to an incredibly high degree as both a person and a player, I just think he is wrong in this situation.thanks.I agree with you to some extent, but you're really understating Mega Slowbro's potential in driving a game. Your average Water-type tank isn't going to have nearly the level of offensive prowess or threat that Mega Slowbro has. Hell, Mega Slowbro has the same Special Attack stat as. We all know how hard that hits, and while it's not directly invested and won't hit as hard as them initially it can easily be raised above and beyond with Calm Mind. It's not just a handful of offensive threats that Mega Slowbro actively checks, its over. Off the top of my head, every single other Physically bulky Pokemon can be boosted up on and broken through. Suicune, Alomomola, Blissey, Hippowdon (phazing out doesn't count as walling because things can just hit it before it whirlwinds, leaving it at a net loss), Gliscor, I could go on. This NOT the same for Mega Slowbro - there is not a single Pokemon that can boost up on it in a 1v1 Scenario for free, the closest thing would be Serperior simply because it boosts up with its attacks, however its initial power is actually very low so Slowbro can beat that as well. Yes, being able to stay healthy with Regenerator is a pivotal part in what makes Slowbro so dangerous in the first place. No, it is not all of it. You still are carrying your incredible bias that prevents you from looking at Mega Slowbro in any manner besides your 1-dimensional one.Oh, how wrong you are. You're thinking of Mega Slowbro in such a wrong manner. You're taking individual traits which Mega Slowbro so very much excels at and pretending like its jobs are mutually exclusive. The closest bulky water type that sets up is Suicine - but it doesn't have even close to the same utility in that Slowbro has INSTANT recovery; it can have a moveslot for coverage instead of Protect or Sub or whatever varient of Cune that you are running. Mega Slowbro also hashigher Defense and a far better Special Attack, and isn't rendered useless if it is hit by Knock Off -- quite the opposite I may say. It's Psychic typing is not a hinderance at all - the point I've been trying to get across this entire time is that Physical Bug and Dark-types don't do ANYTHING to Mega Slowbro as their attacks are not doing enough to sufficiently damage it, since by far the most common of those moves are U-turn and Knock Off respectively. I've showed you in your own damn game, Mega Slowbro 1v1'd your SD Scizor, and Mega Beedrill can't break through it either without Swords Dance and that's a 50/50 as well between Slowbro clicking Slack Off or Scald.I'm actually offended that you would compare Mega Slowbro to Azelf and Cresselia or Reuiniclus, both of which lack the Physical bulk or Offensive prowess to actually do nearly anything to the level that Mega Slowbro does. Cresselia's offensive presence is actually God-awful, its quite a pathetic wincon if you want to use it that way (This is coming from somebody who is actually pretty decent at RU (ssnl r10 so far) where Cresselia is a prominent defensive Pokemon) This actually shows me thatdon't know how it functions in the tier - you're just explaining to us all why you didn't succeed with it when you used it yourself. Mega Slowbro is a Jack-Of-All-Trades that is TOO good at all of its jobs - its still a master wincon and Physical wall withRELIABLE recovery, unlike ANY other Bulky water type in the tier. The Psychic-type sthat you mentioned drop to Knock Off or any other Bug- or Dark-type and don't have the benefit of having the amazing Water-typing that Mega Slowbro has. The best Slowbro set doesn't even make use of Slowbro's Psychic STAB moves, which Reuiniclus (I won't even mention cress because you have no idea how it works) primarily abuses when setting up. Also, Slowbro dropped so far this gen because it isnt as effective in the metagame due to the obvious gen7 power creep. Nothing changed about Psychic typing between ORAS and USUM. It was fine last gen and its still fine this gen, regular Slowbro as a Pokemon just isn't as effective as other Water types for obvious reasons, but with the Mega Evolution I don't see how you can compare the two vastly different Pokemon.What does prediction have to do with anything? My point was that Mega Slowbro is incredibly easy to support and that should be a factor when determine someing's place in a tier. If its harder to support or takes more effort / teammates to support well then its not as much of a threat and not nearly as dangerous. All Pokemon need some support, I thnk this is obvious. But Mega Slowbro is incredibly easy to support on its own due to the variety of roles that its able to perform as well as its straightforward position as a wincon. [/quote]Are you serious about comparing Mega Slowbro to "literally any water type besides empoleon?" Because while that statement would include things like Crawdaunt I'll make the assumption that you know very well that that is not true. But I really can't make assumptions like that considering your previous incredibly invalid comparasons, which I went into detail about above.Yes, we get to look at your biased experience, but the issue with your bias is that you cannot understand how Slowbro is being used and how your incorrect comparisons just reflect your bias. If you gave me valid points I could maybe understand, but showing a bunch of your replays with somebody using Mega Slowbro when they don't know how isn't showing us anything. This isn't a shot at you or your skill (weyou're a great player with a rich history, but that has nothing to do with the present at hand), the point is that I was very successful with Mega Slowbro, and while you achieved with other things, you struggled with using Mega Slowbro.You bet I can tell you that you don't know how to use a mon properly, just like you can tell me I'm not using Forretress correctly in ORAS all day long (l o l). You told yourself that when you didn't use it successfully and how you explained it. Just because you watched and helped in the tiering and watched USUM develop (I did too, by the way) doesn't make your perspective any more significant than mine, I've proved that I am competent and I believe that I have a grasp on the tier needed to not be a worthless opinion. I also never said (or implied in the slightest) that you were not qualified to offer a valid perspective, I just haven't seen that valid perspective from you that I would expect. No, it's not about the fact that we're disagreeing. It's about the fact that your "points" are either point-less or are just completely wrong. There's nothing personal about this, nor am I insulting you, you don't need to flaunt your resume like it makes your perspective the definite one.Just because we have the same team doesn't make our teams invalid. We still are using metagame threats and we're both facing them as well. It should come down to straight outplaying, just like you said. But no, due to how Slowbro dominated the game for both sides, it just came down to whoever got lucky first. I don't think either of us misplayed in that game. Slowbro just ran the game for us because of how much of a dominating threat it is. I'd like to hear somebody tell me that I'm wrong.I disagree with you on this on the basis that I know how Slowbro won me the game the second Hydreigon was gone, despite the fact that you had a Swords Dance Scizor sitting in the back. I don't think there is a long drawn out thing to say here.This first sentence made me legitimately angry that I ranted in the UU room on PS. I never said, or even implied that Banded Scizor was supposed to take care of Water-type tanks. What I did say was that I expected Banded Scizor to break through your Psychic-type walls, say the ones you noted, Max defense Cress is taking like 60 from U-turn and Reuiniclus is taking over 80% from it. Mega Slowbro is taking a lot less from a maximum roll than either of those two are taking from a minimum damage roll, plus Cresselia only has 8 PP on recovery in Moonlight. I also never said Alolan Muk was supposed to beat Mega Slowbro, its just that what was previously. A lot of Pokemon that normally tore apart bulky Psychic types and bulky Water types cannot reliably do it to Mega Slowbro, and this seems to me like something that would prove too powerful for the tier.What's the difference if I built a team myself or I use one somebody else made? Does it make my point any less valid? If so, then why did you share the import of your team then? Just because you frame something as a slow-ass bulky wincon like any others doesn't mean its more than that, which Mega Slowbro obviously is. You posting a bunch of your replays using Mega Slowbro unsuccessfully doesn't give us anything more than the fact that you don't know how to use it correctly. Those are no good examples.PS:Comments like these make me scared because you actually think your opinion is the objectively correct one because the self-proclaimed "ORAS God" who is known for being incredibly self absorbed is always right, correct?edit:[15:23:26]I can't believe you're gonna make me beat you down again DurzaOffTopic[15:23:29]I hope you're readyalso while a lot of what Stall is coming said isn't really true I just had to point this out: