ShadowMaster Profile Joined September 2004 United States 238 Posts Last Edited: 2004-11-05 23:26:23 #1 Related:

Part 2: PvZ: Reaver Midgames

PvZ: The Main-Line

ZvP Reavers

Protoss BOs and Strategies: PvZ Land

The Many Uses of Reavers



An examination of the early game of PvZ Strategies incorporating Reavers, particularly Corsairs + Reaver to Reaver + Goon.



In a recent thread I started to look at the PvZ strategy of going Corsair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon. As many of you have surely noticed, Reavers are a relatively rare sight in progaming PvZs. While there are definite reasons for this beyond any strategic "fashions", the objective of this thread is to give this strategy the further examination that I feel it deserves.





In a recent thread I started to look at the PvZ strategy of going Corsair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon. As many of you have surely noticed, Reavers are a relatively rare sight in progaming PvZs. While there are definite reasons for this beyond any strategic "fashions", the objective of this thread is to give this strategy the further examination that I feel it deserves. Why?

Protoss are currently considered something of an underdog in the Starcraft scene -- and this is after making a big rise in the last year or two! Many of the top gamers have been reduced to playing crazy "cheese" strategies to catch their opponents off guard and play for a win. Further more, the number of Protoss top gamers is traditionally much fewer than the Terran and Zerg gamers. Even those just-for-fun gamers on a WGT level have noticed the lower number of good Toss players. It should be obvious that the Protoss game is somewhat lost; it needs a rehaul, to find itself again.

This strategy has many virtues, a few of which will be listed here and hopefully more to be found shortly as part of this thread.

Psychological. Although this is only a temporary sort of advantage -- and less applicable at the pro level -- this strategy offers a long-term change of pace. All of the favorite Zerg strategies seem ineffective against Reaver/Goon. Mass hydras don't specifically counter anything; Ultra/Ling, the favorite finishing blow of Zergs these days, is useless. And Lurker containment simply doesn't exist; stubborn Zergs who are stuck on their lurkers will quickly find themselves totally run over.





Although this is only a temporary sort of advantage -- and less applicable at the pro level -- this strategy offers a long-term change of pace. All of the favorite Zerg strategies seem ineffective against Reaver/Goon. Mass hydras don't specifically counter anything; Ultra/Ling, the favorite finishing blow of Zergs these days, is useless. And Lurker containment simply doesn't exist; stubborn Zergs who are stuck on their lurkers will quickly find themselves totally run over. Physical. Because of the Reaver element in this strategy, players will find that the game immediately takes on a micro-based tendency. Micro can quickly mean the difference between victory and defeat as the all the play for both players revolves around those Reavers. This may be good or bad depending on your personal style.





Because of the Reaver element in this strategy, players will find that the game immediately takes on a micro-based tendency. Micro can quickly mean the difference between victory and defeat as the all the play for both players revolves around those Reavers. This may be good or bad depending on your personal style. Practical . Those cheese strategies that so many are trying to use these days tend to have the effect of producing a do-or-die game; hardly better than gambling, these strategies are not particularly reliable. Reaver + Goon offers a much more solid game plan that will probably still take the Zerg out of his game.





Protoss are currently considered something of an underdog in the Starcraft scene -- and this is after making a big rise in the last year or two! Many of the top gamers have been reduced to playing crazy "cheese" strategies to catch their opponents off guard and play for a win. Further more, the number of Protoss top gamers is traditionally much fewer than the Terran and Zerg gamers. Even those just-for-fun gamers on a WGT level have noticed the lower number of good Toss players. It should be obvious that the Protoss game is somewhat lost; it needs a rehaul, to find itself again.This strategy has many virtues, a few of which will be listed here and hopefully more to be found shortly as part of this thread. Why Not?

Why is it that we don't see this strategy used at the top level? On a whole, I feel it is largely because the strategy has been overlooked or they just haven't made it this far. There are a few things to worry about, though.

Tactical problems. This strategy can be tough for a Protoss to pull off and disaster can occur quickly. Losing all your Reavers to just a few scourge is disheartening for anyone. This strategy is not for the faint of heart.





This strategy can be tough for a Protoss to pull off and disaster can occur quickly. Losing all your Reavers to just a few scourge is disheartening for anyone. This strategy is not for the faint of heart. Physical Considerations. It is possible that in many games the Protoss will end up putting in a lot more effort than the Zerg without being able to clearly see the benefits. The Protoss player cannot afford to be lazy with this strategy.





It is possible that in many games the Protoss will end up putting in a lot more effort than the Zerg without being able to clearly see the benefits. The Protoss player cannot afford to be lazy with this strategy. Strategic Considerations. There are certain strategic considerations that must be taken into account, most notably dealing with the Zerg Mutalisks and Scourge. It is these considerations that the this thread aims to examine, and that I hope the readers will take the effort to overcome in their games.





Goals

I hope for two things to be accomplished by this thread.

1) Evaluation of whether or not this strategy is suitable for a pro level. Obviously, we can't find this out for a surety due to our weaker skill, but we can do our best.

2) Refinement of this strategy to be useful for those who are NOT pro-level.



Down to Business:

So, that's the theory. How does it hold up against different situations?

The Standard: Mass Hydras. Mass hydras has always been and probably will always be the favorite Zerg strategy, when they feel they can get away with it. However, it is by no means an obvious counter to Reaver + Goon. True, a few Hydras can demolish Reavers, but Reavers never were designed for stand-up fights. They serve two rolls: support and harrassment. This is something that must be tested and experimented with, as there are a lot of variables.

For more on mass-hydra , refer to

Counters: Because mass-hydra is not itself a direct counter to Reaver-Goon until late in the game, you don't need to change strategies. The counter is to out-micro and out-maneuver them.



The Sharp: Spire Tech. This is definitely dangerous to the Protoss, as both Mutalisk and Scourge can ruin pure Reaver ideas and Dragoons suffer vs. MutaLing. However, this is actually not very good for the Zerg is the Protoss isn't out-microed. First of all, using the Corsairs + Reaver to Reaver + Goon path means that Protoss should not be surprised early on by Spire, and will have time to prepare. Secondly, the timely switch to Templar from Reavers is absolutely required in every situation with this strategy and may provide a respite against Spire Tech. But even before Templar are needed, Protoss can crush Zerg pure-Spire strategies by maintaining Corsair production. The only time pure-Spire might be genuinely worriesome to the Protoss is in near positions like 9 vs 6 on LT, when Zerg can almost simultaneously defend his base while pressuring Protoss.



The Critical: Spire/Hydra This is without a doubt the best strategy for Zerg against Stargate to Reaver in normal situations. The idea is to maximize flexibility by keeping Hydras as a strike force and anti-harrassment while keeping Mutas and Scourge to harrass and hunt shuttles.



Miscellany: What other options are there for the Zerg player? Post your thoughts.



[UPDATE]: Established: Conclusions and Theory

These are things that are evident either from practice or simple common-sense, or seem to have been established in the progress of this thread, as well as things that need to be examined in particular. If you disagree, say why and, if possible, post examples. Below they are marked whether they seem to favor Why is it that we don't see this strategy used at the top level? On a whole, I feel it is largely because the strategy has been overlooked or they just haven't made it this far. There are a few things to worry about, though.I hope for two things to be accomplished by this thread.1) Evaluation of whether or not this strategy is suitable for a pro level. Obviously, we can't find this out for a surety due to our weaker skill, but we can do our best.2) Refinement of this strategy to be useful for those who are NOT pro-level.So, that's the theory. How does it hold up against different situations?Mass hydras has always been and probably will always be the favorite Zerg strategy, when they feel they can get away with it. However, it is by no means an obvious counter to Reaver + Goon. True, a few Hydras can demolish Reavers, but Reavers never were designed for stand-up fights. They serve two rolls: support and harrassment. This is something that must be tested and experimented with, as there are a lot of variables.For more on mass-hydra , refer to this post. Because mass-hydra is not itself a direct counter to Reaver-Goon until late in the game, you don't need to change strategies. The counter is to out-micro and out-maneuver them.This is definitely dangerous to the Protoss, as both Mutalisk and Scourge can ruin pure Reaver ideas and Dragoons suffer vs. MutaLing. However, this is actually not very good for the Zerg is the Protoss isn't out-microed. First of all, using the Corsairs + Reaver to Reaver + Goon path means that Protoss should not be surprised early on by Spire, and will have time to prepare. Secondly, the timely switch to Templar from Reavers is absolutely required in every situation with this strategy and may provide a respite against Spire Tech. But even before Templar are needed, Protoss can crush Zerg pure-Spire strategies by maintaining Corsair production. The only time pure-Spire might be genuinely worriesome to the Protoss is in near positions like 9 vs 6 on LT, when Zerg can almost simultaneously defend his base while pressuring Protoss.This is without a doubt the best strategy for Zerg against Stargate to Reaver in normal situations. The idea is to maximize flexibility by keeping Hydras as a strike force and anti-harrassment while keeping Mutas and Scourge to harrass and hunt shuttles.What other options are there for the Zerg player? Post your thoughts.[UPDATE]:These are things that are evident either from practice or simple common-sense, or seem to have been established in the progress of this thread, as well as things that need to be examined in particular. If you disagree, say why and, if possible, post examples. Below they are marked whether they seem to favor [++] the strategy or the strategy or [--] oppose it.

[--] Mass Reavers is not an option. Don't even think about it. For a demonstration, check this.



Don't even think about it. For a demonstration, check this. [--] Spire/Hydra Zerg is the most dangerous for the Protoss.



[--] Lazy Protoss will die. This is a relatively high-energy strategy.



This is a relatively high-energy strategy. [++] Pure Spire is not good. Pure Spire allows Protoss steadily produce Corsairs and Dragoons to go along with his Reavers, usually over powering Zerg once he has 5-6 Corsairs: with Muta/Ling/Scourge the Zerg does not have the power to stop a Reaver push. See this game.



Pure Spire allows Protoss steadily produce Corsairs and Dragoons to go along with his Reavers, usually over powering Zerg once he has 5-6 Corsairs: with Muta/Ling/Scourge the Zerg does not have the power to stop a Reaver push. See this game. [++] Hydratech is not convincing as a strategy in the early game and might even be favorable to Protoss, but in the least offers chances to both sides.



as a strategy in the early game and might even be favorable to Protoss, but in the least offers chances to both sides. [++] Colonies seem to be required if the Zerg wants to ease the harrassment pressure, as most units may be out-maneuvered or spread too thin. Can Spire-Tech Zerg's safely forego investing in colonies?



if the Zerg wants to ease the harrassment pressure, as most units may be out-maneuvered or spread too thin. [++] Sauron Style Zerg (no colonies all game) without much Spire Tech is extremely risky for the Zerg player as he is especially vulnerable to harrassment.



(no colonies all game) without much Spire Tech is extremely risky for the Zerg player as he is especially vulnerable to harrassment. [++] The Zerg must be unusually conservative.Zerg trying to go mass expansions will have a hard time, as this strategy affords the Protoss a MUCH greater than usual degree of maneuverability.





[Update] Resources:



See what Beast says about this strategy



What Protoss need to worry about: how to counter Reaver Sair to Goon.



on the different nature of this type of game.



What not to do with Reavers.



So, post your thoughts and practice here. I will update with links to informative replays, posts, and articles when possible. oppose it.[Update]See whatsays about this strategy in this post. NonY's post on the different nature of this type of game.So, post your thoughts and practice here. I will update with links to informative replays, posts, and articles when possible.