michael barbaro

So it’s here.

michael schmidt

Well, it’s in the hands of Bill Barr. It’s not here in the sense that we can publicly consume it and see what Bob Mueller found. It has just moved from one pocket, which we can’t see into, into another pocket that we can’t see into.

michael barbaro

But it has moved pockets, at least, which is something. Something we’ve been waiting two years for.

michael schmidt

Correct. Bob Mueller is done with his investigation.

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is a special episode of “The Daily.” Today: The Mueller report has been sent to the attorney general. It’s Friday afternoon, March 22. So Mike, talk me through your day today.

michael schmidt

So knowing it was going to be a big day, I turned on the recorder as soon as I left the house this morning and made my way into the office to hurry up and wait.

[music]

michael schmidt All right. 10:05 a.m.

michael schmidt

I left my house at 10:00 a.m.

michael schmidt We expect the report to be finished today around noon.

michael schmidt

Walking down 17th Street, heading to the office.

michael schmidt I got a call from the office from my editor wanting to know what I knew. Told her I knew nothing. Last thing an editor wants to hear — nothing new.

michael schmidt

Not a ton of people on the streets.

speaker Excuse me. michael schmidt Yes? speaker Do you know where the Jamaican Embassy is? michael schmidt I do not, I’m sorry. Do you know what the address is?

michael schmidt

Was stopped by a woman who couldn’t find the Jamaican embassy.

michael schmidt O.K., so you’re going to want to go this way. Go to DuPont Circle, and make a right. Just keep on following that trail. speaker Oh, O.K., so I’m going the wrong way. michael schmidt Well, we’re all going the wrong way.

michael schmidt

Come up to Massachusetts Avenue.

michael schmidt Cold March day. Fairly cold here in Washington. 45 degrees.

michael schmidt

Just had a normal sort of walk into the office.

michael schmidt [HUMMING] Half a block away, coming up to 17th —

michael barbaro

It doesn’t seem like you’re in a big hurry to get to the office.

michael schmidt

Well, all the work has been done. We know what’s coming.

michael schmidt How are you? speaker Hey, Mike. michael schmidt What’s going on?

michael schmidt

So come into the building.

michael schmidt Big day? No? Not a big day? All right.

michael schmidt

Get on the elevator.

elevator voice announcer Floor seven.

michael schmidt

Walk into the office. And everyone wants to know —

speaker 1 What do you got? What do you got? speaker 2 Chasing the report.

michael schmidt

When’s it going to happen?

speaker This is the question I ask him every five — michael schmidt Days or — speaker Days or weeks. michael schmidt Days or weeks?

michael schmidt

The whole apparatus of The New York Times is jacked up for this moment.

michael schmidt We got Nick here. We’re all ready. speaker Gang’s all here.

michael schmidt

There’s been a lot of time and planning that’s gone into this. There’s a lot of stories that have been written that are ready to go.

speaker Does that seem right? michael schmidt Yep. speaker O.K.

michael schmidt

Everyone’s sitting around waiting, and they want answers.

dean baquet So what’s the latest?

michael schmidt

Dean Baquet, our executive editor, calls down to Washington to ask Elisabeth Bumiller, our bureau chief, what do you know?

elisabeth bumiller You’re not so sure about it? michael schmidt I’m less sure about the timing, but —

michael schmidt

Elizabeth calls me over to her desk, puts him on speakerphone. Mikey, what do you know?

dean baquet Do you know much of a heads-up we may or may not get? michael schmidt My guess is not a lot because I don’t know what there is to get a heads-up on.

michael schmidt

And I said, I don’t know.

michael barbaro

[LAUGHS] You tell them that you don’t know.

michael schmidt

We don’t know!

dean baquet O.K. elisabeth bumiller That’s what we got. michael schmidt So that’s all we got. elisabeth bumiller And we have stories ready. Once we get the word from Justice, we just push a button. michael schmidt All the work is done. elisabeth bumiller We’re just tourists hanging around. michael schmidt We’re sort of lemmings at this point.

michael schmidt

So it’s sort of just having the same unsatisfying conversation with different people throughout the office for several hours while eating doughnuts.

michael barbaro

[LAUGHS]

michael schmidt

And then it happens.

archived recording The special counsel investigation is over. Special Counsel Robert Mueller has concluded his investigation into Russian election interference and possible coordination with associates of President Donald Trump. That report has been submitted. Now the question is, what happens to it? How much gets released and when? That is up to the new attorney general, Bill Barr.

michael barbaro

So what do we know at this stage? It is Friday afternoon. What’s our understanding?

michael schmidt

Our understanding is that the attorney general and his deputies now have a long weekend of reading ahead of them. They have to go through the report, see what’s there, digest it, and then figure out what to do with it. How much of it should be made public, how much of it should be given to Congress, and how much of it should remain secret.

michael barbaro

Is that really all we know at this point? Is there anything about how this unfolded that tells us anything about the report or what Mueller has found, if he’s decided to bring any charges against any figure in the White House, or how he’s thinking about this?

michael schmidt

We just know that Mueller is done. There are no more individuals that will be charged by the special counsel’s office in the investigation. If anyone else has gotten caught up in this, they will be indicted by other U.S. attorneys across the country who have absorbed investigations from the special counsel’s office.

michael barbaro

So the version of the report that will go to Congress and be seen by the public is the version that the attorney general has had a chance to go through and decide which parts should be seen by the larger world and which should not. And that’s still going to take a while for him to figure out.

michael schmidt

Correct. And it’s a very difficult process, because if there is criminality in regards to the president, it’s a very tricky issue to navigate. The Justice Department has a policy that says the president can’t be indicted. But if the president can’t be indicted, Congress should deal with that behavior. How do you give that information to Congress? It’s not a snap decision you can make — like, O.K., Mueller’s done, this is what he found. Let’s put this in another box and send it to Congress. It’s far trickier.

michael barbaro

So how does the A.G. make the decision about what to include and what not to include in this report?

michael schmidt

Barr is in this incredibly difficult spot, because he has to figure out how much information to share with the public and Congress in a way that is enough to leave people convinced that this investigation was done thoroughly and based on following the facts. But he has to protect the president from disclosures about him that the public may be interested in, that his political enemies may want to know, but that has no bearing on the actual criminal investigation that was done.

michael barbaro

And does how the attorney general handles that balance depend, in your mind, Mike, on what the report from Mueller finds and says and recommends?

michael schmidt

Yes. If Mueller says the president didn’t break the law, then Barr has to figure out how much information to give to Congress so that Congress takes those findings seriously. The problem is Barr is in a very difficult spot politically, because the Democrats have already concluded the president did something wrong. So if Barr learns from Mueller that there’s no criminality on the president, how does Barr then win over those Democrats and show them that Mueller truly made a decision based on the facts? How much of what the investigation found does he have to give to the Hill? In a normal criminal investigation, all of that information would not become public because the Justice Department would want to protect the individual who they have found did not commit a crime. But this situation is different, because a lot of people do think the president committed a crime. So how do you show the Democrats and the rest of the country that hey, look, this is what Mueller found. He only found X, Y, and Z. And if we wanted to make a case, he would have needed to have uncovered these other things, which he did not. And that’s why we’re confident with his findings.

michael barbaro

And on the other hand, if Mueller does find criminality and perhaps recommend charges against the president, how does Barr have to proceed?

michael schmidt

Well, how much of the evidence that Mueller uncovered should go to Congress? What should be told to Congress? Should Congress be told explicitly, look, Mueller believes the president violated these laws, and here’s the evidence to back it up? But what if some of that evidence has been obtained from a grand jury? The Justice Department can’t just hand over grand jury information to Congress. What if the information is classified? They’re not going to want to hand over classified information to Congress. They think Congress leaks like a sieve.

michael barbaro

Is it safe to say though, Mike, that if criminality is found by Mueller, Congress and the public will see more of the Muller report than if that is not found?

michael schmidt

Maybe. Maybe. But look, this is a highly unusual situation. The person who runs the executive branch, the president, has just been under investigation by folks inside of his own branch for the past 22 months. Very awkward situation.

michael barbaro

And the person making the decision about what we all will learn about that investigation is a direct appointee of that president.

michael schmidt

Correct. Has the job because the president put him there. So the perception here is one where the average person looks at this and says, well, how can a guy who was made attorney general by the president look at this situation and make a decision that is free of politics? And how can I have confidence that this was done based on the facts?

michael barbaro

So when will we know more? When will we know what the attorney general has decided on that front?

michael schmidt

Oh, now you want to know more.

michael barbaro

[LAUGHS] Yes, please.

michael schmidt

The greed of the news business.

michael barbaro

If you’ll indulge us.

michael schmidt

When will we know more? Barr and his deputies will go through this, and I don’t know — sometime in the next few days, sometime in the next few weeks. It may be a difficult process to unbraid. Mueller has been rummaging around the president’s life for 22 months. We don’t have clarity into everything Mueller’s found. What if Barr looks at it and says, eh, Mueller thinks he violated this law and that law. But actually, I don’t think he has it. Maybe there’s not enough there. Maybe Barr disagrees with what Mueller has found, simply on a legal basis. The other thing is that Barr only really gets one shot to get it right. Whatever he goes out the door with in terms of handing over information to Congress, he’s got to have it right. He’s not going to have a second chance to say, well, you know, I gave you that stuff. But like, meh, maybe it’s not what I thought it was. Or, oh, let’s give you more. He has to get it right the first time. Otherwise, he’ll look like he’s waffling.

michael barbaro

And how much of how Barr handles this will be with a mind toward the expectation that a Democratically controlled House of Representatives is already into a series of investigations that they only want to redouble once this report is in their hands?

michael schmidt

Barr clearly knows Congress is going to jump up and down until it is satisfied with the information that it wants about this investigation. He can drag that out and probably lose it one way or another, either in the court of public opinion or in the actual courts. So he probably just wants to get it over with as soon as possible. He knows this has been an enormous weight on the country, and that the sooner it is resolved, the sooner the country can move on.

michael barbaro

And Mike, what is the likelihood that the way we find out more about the Mueller report is not from the version that’s sent to Congress, but from something else? I think we’re all really mindful of the fact that this is the era of the leak, and that this is the biggest potential leak in recent memory.

michael schmidt

Yeah.

michael barbaro

Will it leak?

michael schmidt

I don’t know. I mean, the number of people who will have access to this document will be very small. And they will know that if there are a lot of leaks about this, then the president can start to raise questions about what’s really going on. It will look nefarious. The Democrats will get their backs up and say, well, if this stuff is leaking out, why can’t we have access to it? They will know that their lives will be much more difficult if there are leaks here. Obviously, you could come up with a scenario where someone working on the investigation is frustrated that the Justice Department has decided to go one way or the other on the report, and they think, ah, screw it, I’m going to make this public. But my guess is they have gone to great lengths to ensure that this is heavily protected.

michael barbaro

So now we wait again.

michael schmidt

Hurry up and wait.

michael barbaro

Mike, thank you very much.

michael schmidt

Thanks for having me.

michael barbaro