Jul 23 19:17:36 <miyako> I'd like to try to keep this to an hour; I feel like a lot of our meetings have gone on for too long

Jul 23 19:17:41 <TheDuceCat> yeah

Jul 23 19:17:48 <TheDuceCat> what are today's goals?

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Jul 23 19:17:53 <TheDuceCat> ^stats

Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> --- Channel statistics ---

Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Channel: #rpcdesktop

Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Users: ArrowBot, Bradford, CatBot, chancez, decatf, Filter_, LoGabr, miyako, Suner, tayne, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat

Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Opers: ArrowBot, miyako, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat

Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Voiced:

Jul 23 19:18:09 <tayne> oh shit thanks catbot

Jul 23 19:18:18 <TheDuceCat> lol

Jul 23 19:18:19 <miyako> I think the biggest issue we have right now is that we need to start getting code written.

Jul 23 19:18:23 <Suner> ^

Jul 23 19:18:28 <miyako> what stands in our way from starting that right now?

Jul 23 19:18:36 <Filter_> lack of direction

Jul 23 19:18:40 <Filter_> no clear goals written down

Jul 23 19:18:44 <Suner> ^

Jul 23 19:18:51 <miyako> I know I committed to starting to get some design documentation done

Jul 23 19:18:59 <Suner> we have a basic idea of the final product

Jul 23 19:19:06 <Suner> but no immediate goals

Jul 23 19:19:11 <thearrowflies> that woke me up

Jul 23 19:19:16 <miyako> and I apologize but I've just been too sick to work on that as of yet; it will probably be next weekend before I can really sit down and work on that

Jul 23 19:19:48 <miyako> wasn't someone going to work on a GUI prototype?

Jul 23 19:19:54 <TheDuceCat> arrow

Jul 23 19:20:07 <TheDuceCat> ^die

Jul 23 19:20:07 <thearrowflies> ?

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Jul 23 19:20:18 <TheDuceCat> were'nt you going to make mockups?

Jul 23 19:20:39 <thearrowflies> yeah >.>

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Jul 23 19:21:16 <thearrowflies> let me wake up and then ill switch over to osx and do it

Jul 23 19:21:18 <TheDuceCat> how is gtk+ compared to QT?

Jul 23 19:21:36 <TheDuceCat> it can keep the whole code base to C :)

Jul 23 19:21:43 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall

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Jul 23 19:21:56 <thearrowflies> wait what? i was going to do it in photoshgop

Jul 23 19:22:28 <TheDuceCat> no

Jul 23 19:22:30 <TheDuceCat> not for mockups

Jul 23 19:22:32 <miyako> TheDuceCat: I like GTK+, but a lot of people don't. I think the C++/Qt and C backend approach satisfies the most people who want to work on the project

Jul 23 19:22:34 <TheDuceCat> just for a framework

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Jul 23 19:22:41 <TheDuceCat> ok

Jul 23 19:22:49 <TheDuceCat> but...C ;(

Jul 23 19:22:57 <Suner> I'd just like to interject

Jul 23 19:22:58 <miyako> glib is pretty nice though, I suspect we might end up using it on the back end

Jul 23 19:23:04 <Suner> I don't like Qt

Jul 23 19:23:05 <Suner> :p

Jul 23 19:23:10 <thearrowflies> ok, let me open up creator

Jul 23 19:23:20 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall

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Jul 23 19:23:50 <miyako> Suner: I mis-spoke, I should have said that the C and C++/Qt combination we've settled on has the smallest standard deviation in the level of dissatisfaction

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Jul 23 19:24:34 <Suner> haha, yeah, probably

Jul 23 19:24:45 <TheDuceCat> let's write everything in assembly

Jul 23 19:24:56 <thearrowflies> ^

Jul 23 19:25:04 <miyako> 6802 assembly!

Jul 23 19:25:14 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall

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Jul 23 19:25:25 <thearrowflies> why is it quitting?

Jul 23 19:25:32 <timg> hi

Jul 23 19:25:38 <TheDuceCat> i'm debugging :)

Jul 23 19:25:42 <miyako> hey timg

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Jul 23 19:25:49 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall

Jul 23 19:25:49 <CatBot> Wake up! ArrowBot, Bradford, CatBot, chancez, decatf, Filter_, LoGabr, miyako, Suner, tayne, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat, timg

Jul 23 19:25:51 <timg> hey miya

Jul 23 19:25:51 <TheDuceCat> lol

Jul 23 19:25:53 <TheDuceCat> that will be fun

Jul 23 19:25:59 <tayne> ?

Jul 23 19:26:02 <timg> CatBot: that's stupidly annoying

Jul 23 19:26:07 <thearrowflies> no its not

Jul 23 19:26:09 <thearrowflies> it woke me up

Jul 23 19:26:11 <TheDuceCat> it's meeting time!

Jul 23 19:26:12 <timg> is so!

Jul 23 19:26:15 <timg> oh?

Jul 23 19:26:16 <miyako> So, I think last time the things we had floating up in the air were

Jul 23 19:26:16 <tayne> it's annoying as hell

Jul 23 19:26:17 <thearrowflies> my volume was really loud

Jul 23 19:26:17 <Suner> miyako: although iirc at the last meeting no one really voiced anything

Jul 23 19:26:18 <TheDuceCat> i'll brb :)

Jul 23 19:26:19 <timg> ok, let's meet!

Jul 23 19:26:25 * TheDuceCat is away: BRB

Jul 23 19:26:47 <miyako> file format information, how the tiles will be stored, who opens tile sets, how are they shared between the backend and frontend

Jul 23 19:27:40 <Suner> ah, I'm still not entirely sure of what the backend actually does

Jul 23 19:28:04 <miyako> Suner: for right now, not very much at all

Jul 23 19:28:40 <miyako> The long term vision of the backend is a library that you use to compose tiles, feed tiles and terrain information into it, and get back out a mesh or vector image with map data

Jul 23 19:28:50 <Suner> just a file reader/writer for now?

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Jul 23 19:29:27 <miyako> Suner: I'd like it to be slightly smarter than that, but probably not by much really

Jul 23 19:29:45 <Suner> I'm just talking about immediate goal

Jul 23 19:30:08 <Suner> as in, where we simply get a basic map to render with fix tiles

Jul 23 19:30:12 <miyako> Suner: yeah, I think for now the backend should actually read the tiles and give them to the front end

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Jul 23 19:32:00 <miyako> At a high level, the way I see the program flow with the front and back ends is:

Jul 23 19:33:08 <miyako> frontend starts -> initializes the backend library; user creates a new map -> frontend requests a new map -> backend returns a map_t data structure that is opaque

Jul 23 19:33:46 <miyako> front-end calls renderMap(map) and gets back a bitmap that it draws to the openGL context

Jul 23 19:34:14 <Suner> all right

Jul 23 19:34:38 <miyako> user selects a tile (more on this in a minute), front end calls addTile(map, tileID, tileX, tileY) then renderMap(map)

Jul 23 19:34:46 <miyako> and redraws the new sprite into the OpenGL context

Jul 23 19:35:13 <miyako> to select tiles, the user clicks "choose tile set" and selects a directory full of tiles

Jul 23 19:35:37 <miyako> the front end calls to the back end addTileLibrary(tileLibrary, path)

Jul 23 19:35:49 <miyako> tileLibrary is probably a map or something, I don't know for sure yet

Jul 23 19:36:11 <miyako> but it contains maybe a key if it's a map, and some tile_t types

Jul 23 19:36:26 <miyako> which are opaque pointers to the backends internal representation of a tile

Jul 23 19:37:12 <miyako> then the frontend calls something like: tileGetThumbnail(tileID) tileGetName(tileID) to get the name and a thumbnail image of the tile

Jul 23 19:37:37 <miyako> and tileGetSprite(tileID) to get a full sized sprite of the tile (perhaps to set as the cursor when the user is adding something to the map)

Jul 23 19:38:08 <miyako> that's the vague design ideas I have in my head right now, I'm open to other ideas

Jul 23 19:38:29 <TheDuceCat> sorry

Jul 23 19:38:31 <TheDuceCat> back

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Jul 23 19:39:28 <miyako> TheDuceCat: no problem, read my general design idea and see what you think

Jul 23 19:40:17 <TheDuceCat> looks good

Jul 23 19:42:05 <Suner> sounds like a good starting point

Jul 23 19:45:52 <thearrowflies> qt designer is a bit weird to work with

Jul 23 19:46:08 <TheDuceCat> why?

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Jul 23 19:46:56 <thearrowflies> it may just be me being a noob, but i cant figure out how to do alot of things

Jul 23 19:47:06 <TheDuceCat> like what?

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Jul 23 19:47:29 <thearrowflies> i cant figure out how to get rid of the bottom bar

Jul 23 19:47:36 <thearrowflies> or how to add things to the toolbar

Jul 23 19:47:42 <TheDuceCat> there's a bottom bar?

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Jul 23 19:47:54 <TheDuceCat> on the design software or the app itself?

Jul 23 19:48:19 <thearrowflies> you know how steam has that bar on the bottom of the window?

Jul 23 19:48:22 <thearrowflies> its like that

Jul 23 19:48:24 <thearrowflies> but not as thick

Jul 23 19:48:49 <TheDuceCat> on Qt Creator or the design you're making?

Jul 23 19:48:54 <thearrowflies> on the design

Jul 23 19:48:59 <thearrowflies> dunno how to get rid of it

Jul 23 19:49:09 <thearrowflies> and things snap into place, which is good but right now its annoying

Jul 23 19:49:35 <Bradford> hey im not sure wahts going on

Jul 23 19:49:41 <Bradford> for the desktop project right now

Jul 23 19:49:50 <TheDuceCat> i got it

Jul 23 19:50:08 <TheDuceCat> on the right side you get a object hierarchy correct?

Jul 23 19:50:20 <thearrowflies> yeah

Jul 23 19:50:27 <thearrowflies> i just removed status bar

Jul 23 19:50:46 <TheDuceCat> that work for you?

Jul 23 19:50:51 <thearrowflies> yeah

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Jul 23 19:53:23 <thearrowflies> this is just a basic design

Jul 23 19:53:24 <thearrowflies> # I accidentally posted the wrong picture here. Correct link http://i.imgur.com/oNGf7.png #

Jul 23 19:53:33 <thearrowflies> the white area would be the working area

Jul 23 19:53:38 <thearrowflies> the tools would be like that

Jul 23 19:53:39 <thearrowflies> but

Jul 23 19:53:40 <Suner> lolwut

Jul 23 19:53:44 <thearrowflies> have an option to popoup

Jul 23 19:54:08 <thearrowflies> the grey thing up top would be various tools not in the toolbox on right

Jul 23 19:54:32 <Suner> lol, I thought you were joking

Jul 23 19:54:35 <Suner> had a good laugh

Jul 23 19:54:41 <thearrowflies> >.>

Jul 23 19:54:44 <Suner> but I think you pasted the wrong link mate

Jul 23 19:54:53 <TheDuceCat> nice rig though

Jul 23 19:54:53 <thearrowflies> oh

Jul 23 19:54:56 <thearrowflies> >.>

Jul 23 19:54:57 <TheDuceCat> :)

Jul 23 19:55:03 <thearrowflies> dammit

Jul 23 19:55:06 <thearrowflies> forgot to copy it

Jul 23 19:55:07 <thearrowflies> http://i.imgur.com/oNGf7.png

Jul 23 19:55:08 <thearrowflies> yeah

Jul 23 19:55:09 <thearrowflies> thats it

Jul 23 19:55:41 <Suner> yeah that's good enough

Jul 23 19:55:46 <Suner> things are always subject to change

Jul 23 19:58:06 <Suner> do we just want to

Jul 23 19:58:34 <Suner> link filenames in the map file (to tiles), or actually include the tile data in the map file?

Jul 23 19:59:07 <miyako> I think the tile data should be included in the map file

Jul 23 19:59:29 <miyako> linking to the filename would be a good feature to possible add in the future though IMHO

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Jul 23 20:04:05 <miyako> the discussion seems to have started to lag; anyone have anything else they want to bring up for the meeting?

Jul 23 20:04:35 <Suner> can we at least get a project structure going?

Jul 23 20:04:41 <Suner> are we still using CMake?

Jul 23 20:04:47 <TheDuceCat> yeah

Jul 23 20:05:05 <LoGabr2> Can i get a trello invite

Jul 23 20:05:12 <Suner> can we decide on a unit testing framework?

Jul 23 20:05:31 <TheDuceCat> pm me your email

Jul 23 20:05:40 <thearrowflies> who is working on the QT part of it?

Jul 23 20:05:49 <TheDuceCat> i am

Jul 23 20:06:07 <TheDuceCat> LoGabr2: pm me your email

Jul 23 20:06:11 <thearrowflies> just us?

Jul 23 20:06:32 <TheDuceCat> everybody is gone

Jul 23 20:06:37 <thearrowflies> :<

Jul 23 20:06:50 <Suner> lol

Jul 23 20:06:57 <thearrowflies> do you want to start coding first or do you want me to?

Jul 23 20:07:07 <TheDuceCat> we have 26 in the trello

Jul 23 20:07:09 <Suner> if you guys need any help with it I'll probably pitch in

Jul 23 20:07:22 <TheDuceCat> let's see how the git is giong to be structured before we code

Jul 23 20:07:27 <miyako> I'm hoping to start getting code written on the backend this week

Jul 23 20:07:31 <thearrowflies> ok

Jul 23 20:07:35 <TheDuceCat> yeah there are no set 'teams' or anything

Jul 23 20:07:39 <TheDuceCat> you can go back and forth

Jul 23 20:08:04 <miyako> yeah, I do plan on trying to contribute to the GUI a little :)

Jul 23 20:08:37 <TheDuceCat> i wonder how many people are still interested

Jul 23 20:08:57 <Bradford> i am

Jul 23 20:09:04 <TheDuceCat> everyone in this chat is

Jul 23 20:09:21 <thearrowflies> except for the people not talking/afk

Jul 23 20:09:24 <miyako> I would guess there will be maybe 5 or 6 regular contributers, with maybe 3 or 4 additional people who work on significant features

Jul 23 20:09:35 <TheDuceCat> mmm

Jul 23 20:09:58 <miyako> I haven't seen Filter_ say much, but given the enthusiasm with which he worked on that gaussian blur code I expect to see him jumping into the code once it gets started, I could be wrong though

Jul 23 20:10:22 <Suner> http://ideone.com/n24Gn here's a quick mockup of a potential binary file format

Jul 23 20:10:24 <Suner> and yeah

Jul 23 20:10:24 <ArrowBot> Title: Ideone.com | Online C Compiler & Debugging Tool (at ideone.com)

Jul 23 20:10:29 <Suner> directory structure

Jul 23 20:10:37 <decatf> put me in the former category

Jul 23 20:11:10 <miyako> I'm actually pretty happy with the way things have gone, if we had the ~25 or so people that were here during the first meeting still collaborating, getting started would be a real cluster; I'll probably be better to gain some momentum and then grow the number of core contributers once we have a good direction

Jul 23 20:11:46 <chancez> wudup

Jul 23 20:12:18 <LoGabr2> I am very interested but i have very little low level language experience so i will probably watch for a bit before i try to contribute

Jul 23 20:12:33 <Bradford> ditto

Jul 23 20:14:24 <miyako> LoGabr2, Bradford well hopefully we can make it easy for you to start contributing :)

Jul 23 20:14:52 <Bradford> yea thanky you!!!!!

Jul 23 20:14:55 <Bradford> thank you*

Jul 23 20:15:19 <TheDuceCat> :)

Jul 23 20:16:25 <TheDuceCat> how are we going to structure this project?

Jul 23 20:16:45 <miyako> TheDuceCat: you mean like directory structuring?

Jul 23 20:16:50 <TheDuceCat> exactly

Jul 23 20:17:03 <TheDuceCat> src lib bin etc

Jul 23 20:18:24 <miyako> tieldr/{build, doc, lib, src, resources} tieldr/src/{gui, backend, plugin}

Jul 23 20:18:37 <miyako> ?

Jul 23 20:18:45 <TheDuceCat> good

Jul 23 20:18:45 <Suner> yeah

Jul 23 20:18:51 <TheDuceCat> maybe instead of resources -> res

Jul 23 20:18:56 <TheDuceCat> i like three letters :)

Jul 23 20:19:00 <Suner> no comments on my file proposal?

Jul 23 20:19:15 <miyako> Suner: re: linking files vs embedding?

Jul 23 20:19:15 <TheDuceCat> i don't know a lot about using binary data

Jul 23 20:19:16 <TheDuceCat> so

Jul 23 20:19:26 <TheDuceCat> http://ideone.com/n24Gn

Jul 23 20:19:29 <ArrowBot> Title: Ideone.com | Online C Compiler & Debugging Tool (at ideone.com)

Jul 23 20:21:26 <miyako> hmm

Jul 23 20:24:26 <thearrowflies> isnt that what he posted?

Jul 23 20:24:34 <TheDuceCat> IT'S MY CODE

Jul 23 20:24:39 <Suner> haha

Jul 23 20:24:48 <TheDuceCat> i don't know how it works but it's mine

Jul 23 20:24:59 <thearrowflies> ok

Jul 23 20:25:06 <TheDuceCat> should i do pingall again lol

Jul 23 20:25:08 <miyako> This is my code; there are many like it, but this one is mine...

Jul 23 20:25:23 <TheDuceCat> :|

Jul 23 20:25:44 <LoGabr2> Night gents

Jul 23 20:25:49 <thearrowflies> night

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Jul 23 20:26:03 <miyako> TheDuceCat: I see what you're going for there, I'm not sure that's the format I'd use personally

Jul 23 20:26:16 <miyako> I was thinking something like:

Jul 23 20:26:18 <TheDuceCat> that's not mine

Jul 23 20:26:19 <TheDuceCat> lol

Jul 23 20:26:20 <TheDuceCat> Suner wrote it

Jul 23 20:27:34 <thearrowflies> whats with the

Jul 23 20:27:35 <thearrowflies> 0x00, 0x54

Jul 23 20:27:43 <Suner> magic number

Jul 23 20:27:46 <thearrowflies> why cant you use the decimal representation

Jul 23 20:28:09 <Suner> errr, because hex was easier?

Jul 23 20:28:09 <Suner> lol

Jul 23 20:28:10 <thearrowflies> if there is one

Jul 23 20:28:14 <thearrowflies> it is?

Jul 23 20:28:34 <thearrowflies> 0x00 = 0, right?

Jul 23 20:28:41 <TheDuceCat> i don't know anything about reading/writing binary

Jul 23 20:28:43 <Suner> yeah

Jul 23 20:28:51 <miyako> <magic number><version><tile count>[<tile packet bytes><tile id><tile name byte><tile name><tile data bytes><tile data> ...]<map size x> <map size y>[row major tile data by tile id]

Jul 23 20:29:14 <miyako> do it sort of like huffman coding

Jul 23 20:29:45 <Suner> what's the point in tiles having names?

Jul 23 20:30:03 <miyako> *shrug* maybe it's unnecessary

Jul 23 20:30:11 <TheDuceCat> tile age

Jul 23 20:30:13 <TheDuceCat> tile wife

Jul 23 20:30:17 <TheDuceCat> tile children array

Jul 23 20:30:30 <Suner> and btw, I was just going for easiest format to implement that get's the job done

Jul 23 20:30:56 <TheDuceCat> how about you guys handle file format because i'm clueless on r/w binary

Jul 23 20:31:39 <miyako> TheDuceCat: yeah, I figure that the file format will be a feature someone implements after we have some of the other stuff done

Jul 23 20:31:58 <TheDuceCat> k

Jul 23 20:32:00 <miyako> we might just start out without the ability to save maps at all, and once we have an idea of how the code and our data structures look we might be able to make a better decision

Jul 23 20:32:32 <TheDuceCat> +1

Jul 23 20:32:57 <thearrowflies> boost has this cool thing that lets you output objects to file

Jul 23 20:32:59 <thearrowflies> just saying

Jul 23 20:33:08 <thearrowflies> and input them

Jul 23 20:33:17 <Suner> serialization?

Jul 23 20:33:20 <thearrowflies> ja

Jul 23 20:33:30 <Suner> welp, backend is in C not C++ :p

Jul 23 20:33:39 <thearrowflies> true

Jul 23 20:34:00 <Suner> and even then

Jul 23 20:34:04 <Suner> it has it's downsides

Jul 23 20:36:43 <TheDuceCat> well its been > an hour

Jul 23 20:36:52 <TheDuceCat> so are we going to wrap this up?

Jul 23 20:37:32 <miyako> TheDuceCat: sounds good to me

Jul 23 20:37:49 <miyako> TheDuceCat: mind taking the summary again today?

Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> miyako do you want to set up the folders?

Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> res

Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> src

Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> build

Jul 23 20:37:55 <TheDuceCat> doc

Jul 23 20:37:57 <TheDuceCat> yeah