Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-11 22:26:38 #1



Hello all!



For those that do not know me, I am ESV.Diamond with the ESV map team. I own and run the ESV map team. For a long time something has been very heavily bothering me.



Why do mapmakers get no say in their own maps or how they are used?



The most recent (but not only) example of this is the removal of islands from MLG. As you can see in the screenshot above LS (creator of the map) did not approve (and I highly doubt he was ever even consulted about it) of these changes.



Mapmakers work very hard on what they do, and regardless if the removal of islands was a good or bad thing, the very concept that you can pour all your hard work into a product, only to have a tournament organizer that does not understand maps on any reasonable level destroy it as they see fit.



Why does this happen and no one cares?



I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?"



This is an issue that has bothered me for about as long as custom maps have been used, so I ask you the community, why is it ok?



Edit:



Hello all!For those that do not know me, I am ESV.Diamond with the ESV map team. I own and run the ESV map team. For a long time something has been very heavily bothering me.Why do mapmakers get no say in their own maps or how they are used?The most recent (but not only) example of this is the removal of islands from MLG. As you can see in the screenshot above LS (creator of the map) did not approve (and I highly doubt he was ever even consulted about it) of these changes.Mapmakers work very hard on what they do, and regardless if the removal of islands was a good or bad thing, the very concept that you can pour all your hard work into a product, only to have a tournament organizer that does not understand maps on any reasonable level destroy it as they see fit.Why does this happen and no one cares?I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it.This is an issue that has bothered me for about as long as custom maps have been used, so I ask you the community, why is it ok? On May 12 2012 05:13 prodiG wrote:

This isn't exactly true. Once you make a map and publish it to battle.net, the system is designed so that people can only download and EDIT the map in the galaxy editor if you publish the map as "unlocked" - which no professional map will be published as.



The problem here lies in that tournaments want us to give them the map file so they can publish it under their official accounts and add whatever tags they like - "MLG Cloud Kingdom" for example - so players know that they are playing on the correct version as per MLG.



Does this give the tournament organizers the ability to edit the map? Yes. But only because no proper read-only .sc2map stuff exists at this point (which is frankly really fucking stupid.)



Does this give the tournament organizers the right to edit the map?

Not without the mapmaker's consent, as far as I'm concerned.



Maps are designed with features and their concept in mind and nobody should know these things better than the map's creator itself. If the map's creator feels like the islands on Metropolis are bad and opts to remove them, fair enough. I wouldn't agree with his decision, but at the end of the day it's his decision to make.



To sum this up, it's not a matter of intellectual property. It's not a matter of "oh they have the map file so they can do whatever they want" - it's a matter of respect. These guys work really fricken hard to bring you new and exciting maps to make your tournament experience better for spectators and players alike and all we really recieve in return is a warm fuzzy feeling that we're making a difference in the professional scene and our map is going to get played on air in front of thousands with our favorite players. To crap all over that by defacing a map in any way without consulting the mapmaker is flat out disrespectful and simply put a shitty thing to do overall.



TL;DR This is not fucking okay. Yes, I am fucking chapped about it.



On May 12 2012 06:19 thurst0n wrote:

Everyone needs to read this post, not the TL;DR that prodiG posted, because that is just relaying his emotions, the actual TL;DR for his post would be this: Tournaments should respect the mappers that put in their work for the COMMUNITY, and not abuse their position. It comes down to RESPECT.



Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

milesfacade Profile Joined November 2010 United Kingdom 788 Posts #2 I think you need to let him reply to your next question of whether he authorized mlg to make the change before going any further.

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #3 On May 12 2012 04:52 milesfacade wrote:

I think you need to let him reply to your next question of whether he authorized mlg to make the change before going any further.



Even if in this one case they did, it's one case out of a bunch. Even if in this one case they did, it's one case out of a bunch. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

S_SienZ Profile Joined September 2011 1871 Posts #4 I agree that it's really hurting to a creator when the integrity of his work is ignored and adaptations are made regardless of his consent.



The organisers are completely free to try to create a new map as they see fit.

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #5 Let's remember that MLG still used Metalopolis for the longest time.

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #6 On May 12 2012 04:54 Torte de Lini wrote:

Let's remember that MLG still used Metalopolis for the longest time.





Let's not get hung up in map pools, I'll be making a how to guide soon enough. I'm just talking about editing other people's work without their consent. Let's not get hung up in map pools, I'll be making a how to guide soon enough. I'm just talking about editing other people's work without their consent. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

speknek Profile Joined February 2012 756 Posts #7 Personally I feel that when you make a map for a community it's an open source thing and it should be improved on by someone else if needed. I do, however, think that changes should be suggested/implemented only by experienced players/mapmakers with some credentials and not just some random tournament organizers.





SirPsychoMantis Profile Joined December 2011 United States 180 Posts #8 I don't think we can stop Blizzard from messing up ladder maps (eg. no half base on Daybreak), cause they are pretty stubborn on that issue.



But I think tournament organizers should at least consult map makers on their decisions, ask why they have done certain things and have full information before messing with them. Zerg #1

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #9 The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #10 On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote:

The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps.



Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers? Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers? Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

iamcaustic Profile Blog Joined May 2011 Canada 1448 Posts #11 On May 12 2012 04:54 Torte de Lini wrote:

Let's remember that MLG still used Metalopolis for the longest time.



This is something I still cannot fathom. Kind of like how they're still using Shakuras Plateau. This is something I still cannot fathom. Kind of like how they're still using Shakuras Plateau. Twitter: @iamcaustic

Aunvilgod Profile Joined December 2011 2649 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-11 19:59:48 #12 WHAT? They didn´t even consult him? I like MLG less and less and less... ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater

TrickyGilligan Profile Joined September 2010 United States 641 Posts #13 Sadly, I don't really think there's much you can do about it. Once you make a map and publish it to Battle.net, anyone can download it and mess with it as they see fit. I don't think this is right, but I also don't think there's any way around it. Making maps proprietary opens up an entirely new can of worms, that I don't really think we want to get into.



On the other hand though, I'm really sick of each tournament making small changes to maps. Are close positions allowed? Is it only cross positions? Will there be a supply depot at the bottom of my ramp? It's too much for both players and spectators. I want to be able to just watch a game on a map I know, without all the endless caveats and addendums the casters have to go through every single time. I also hear all the time in interviews with players, "You knew that map only had cross spawns, so were you checking the close ones for proxies?" "Wait, what? Really?" "I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." -Groucho Marx

Aeris130 Profile Joined August 2010 Sweden 14 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-11 20:00:47 #14 Map imbalances should be removed regardless. If map creators expect MLG to contact them first, then MLG should expect mapmakers to never release imbalanced maps in the first place.



If map makers feel they cannot deliver on this point, they should meet MLG half-way and allow them to make any changes they might want to implement before using the map, or put up with not having their maps used.

Fabozi Profile Joined March 2011 Slovakia 319 Posts #15 that way tournaments shouldn't use modified versions of blizzard maps (close spawns removed. etc)

StarVe Profile Joined June 2011 Germany 12278 Posts #16 On May 12 2012 04:56 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote:

The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps.



Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers? Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers?



Would be reasonable, but sadly, most tournaments seem to not give a fuck.



Thanks for speaking out, I'm with you on this one. Would be reasonable, but sadly, most tournaments seem to not give a fuck.Thanks for speaking out, I'm with you on this one.

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #17 On May 12 2012 04:56 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote:

The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps.



Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers? Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers?



So lay it out for us right now: what would you say if MLG approached you about changing the map and removing the island.

You would note how the islands are important for XYZ reason.

You would note how it gives race bias, etc.

You would note that the island are intended and essential to the overall map-layout.



MLG would agree, understand, acknowledges, and make the choice of doing it anyways or keeping it as is.



Outcome is relatively the same (just less informed) and your viewpoint is maintained and acknowledged.



I see your point and obviously, consultation of your own creation is something most or anyone would agree on. I don't know if the priority is there. So lay it out for us right now: what would you say if MLG approached you about changing the map and removing the island.You would note how the islands are important for XYZ reason.You would note how it gives race bias, etc.You would note that the island are intended and essential to the overall map-layout.MLG would agree, understand, acknowledges, and make the choice of doing it anyways or keeping it as is.Outcome is relatively the same (just less informed) and your viewpoint is maintained and acknowledged.I see your point and obviously, consultation of your own creation is something most or anyone would agree on. I don't know if the priority is there. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

klops Profile Joined June 2010 United States 622 Posts Last Edited: 2012-05-11 20:02:23 #18 On May 12 2012 04:58 Aunvilgod wrote:

WHAT? They didn´t even consult him? I like MLG less and less and less...



in the current state of things, they don't have to unfortunately :\



i do feel it's not MLG's place. in the current state of things, they don't have to unfortunately :\i do feel it's not MLG's place.

dUTtrOACh Profile Joined December 2010 Canada 2201 Posts #19 I guess this is what happens when Blizzard owns the rights to everything you create using their games' tools. What happens is you have no right to complain, because you don't technically own the map, even if you made it. Just keep making great maps and accept that people aren't always happy with what you might think is perfect just the way you made it. LSPrime and the ESV team have been making awesome maps, and the fans and players agree. You guys should be really proud of yourselves, but you should also bare in mind that you don't OWN this intellectual property, and thus, it can be changed without your permission. twitch.tv/duttroach

Exarl25 Profile Joined November 2010 1887 Posts #20 Do map makers actually receive any compensation for their work? Or do tournaments just throw a map into their pool without contacting the original creator at all?

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