CholmesInk Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 139 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-03 18:10:06 #1



My Name is Trevor and I have recently made the switch to zerg with the hopes of becoming diamond. I am having a ton of trouble in the ZvZ and ZvP match-ups, and I was wondering if you guys could help me by telling me

1) What I'm doing wrong

2) What I'm doing right

3) What i need to do to get better

4) What you do when you play



ZvP#1

+ Show Spoiler + http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248366



ZvP#2

+ Show Spoiler + http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248367



ZvZ#1

+ Show Spoiler + http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248368



ZvZ#2

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248427 This is a re-upload of the real game, sorry my mistake. I had lost over 6 ZvZ's so i decided to cheese a bit in this one.



And here are my ZvT replays just for fun. its my best match up and I have a decent practice partner for the match-up so I'm not to concerned with that as much.



TvZ#1

+ Show Spoiler + http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248372



TvZ#2

+ Show Spoiler + http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248373



Those are my games and I would love feed back on what I need to do for my ZvP and ZvZ match-ups, I cant seem to get over a 25% win rate. I would like any feed back, build orders or what ever you would want as a zerg player.



Thanks for reading



♥Trevor Hello TL,My Name is Trevor and I have recently made the switch to zerg with the hopes of becoming diamond. I am having a ton of trouble in the ZvZ and ZvP match-ups, and I was wondering if you guys could help me by telling me1) What I'm doing wrong2) What I'm doing right3) What i need to do to get better4) What you do when you playZvP#1ZvP#2ZvZ#1ZvZ#2And here are my ZvT replays just for fun. its my best match up and I have a decent practice partner for the match-up so I'm not to concerned with that as much.TvZ#1TvZ#2Those are my games and I would love feed back on what I need to do for my ZvP and ZvZ match-ups, I cant seem to get over a 25% win rate. I would like any feed back, build orders or what ever you would want as a zerg player.Thanks for reading♥Trevor Twitch.tv/TrevorCholmes Follow me on twitter! @TrevorCholmes

Fiel Profile Joined March 2010 United States 587 Posts #2



I'm going over ZvP#1



- Your second OL should go to your natural so you can see if P cannons your natural. You do not need to follow the probe with a drone that could be mining.

- At 3:00 both of your OLs are out of position. You already know your opponent is in the NE, so you should be moving your first OL to the 9 o clock position so you can get a 6:00 - 7:00 scout. After you know there will be no cheese at your natural, send your second OL to the NE just outside of P's third so you'll know when he decides to take that expo.

- 5:30 - Your first four lings are VERY important. You did well to find the pylon at your third, but you need to be more active with them. Use one ling to scout around the map for proxies. Use another ling to poke at his ramp. Send another ling to the watch tower, and send the final ling just above the gold expansion so you'll have some warning if he's coming.

- 6:50 - Gas stealing at P's natural is very questionable. You should leave your drone in his base as long as possible. P won't want to put down tech structures where your drone can see them. So leaving your drone in there to scout (and delay P's tech) until he dies is a far better move than slowing down his gas.

- 7:40 - This is where you SHOULD be scouting him with an OL. Your Drone didn't find any tech which is really weird for P at 7:00. However, you have NO overlords in position to scout him.

- 8:30 - You need to work on your creep spread. I like that your injects are pretty good, but you don't have enough economy to support your larvae. By about this time you should have creep between your main and natural (in case of stargate play) and creep from your natural to your third so you can spine there.

- 9:00 - You are making FAR too few drones. With three hatcheries and so much larvae, you should be pumping LOTS of drones so your economy can support that larvae. Meanwhile, P's economy is totally trashed right now. He went 3 gate colo and his economy can support a lot more than that. He's at 10:30 with nearly no army, very little tech, and no thermal lance.

- 11:30 - Because you had so few drones, you couldn't punish P for waltzing in and taking a third.



I'm going to stop right here since the rest of the game is meaningless. Your biggest problem is that you're not making enough drones. Protoss, even with his trashed economy, was still far ahead of you in probe production.



I want you to think about this... LiquidRet is maxed at 13:00. If he can do it in Grandmasters, you can do it in whatever league you're in.



Good luck. ZvP is my best matchup.I'm going over ZvP#1- Your second OL should go to your natural so you can see if P cannons your natural. You do not need to follow the probe with a drone that could be mining.- At 3:00 both of your OLs are out of position. You already know your opponent is in the NE, so you should be moving your first OL to the 9 o clock position so you can get a 6:00 - 7:00 scout. After you know there will be no cheese at your natural, send your second OL to the NE just outside of P's third so you'll know when he decides to take that expo.- 5:30 - Your first four lings are VERY important. You did well to find the pylon at your third, but you need to be more active with them. Use one ling to scout around the map for proxies. Use another ling to poke at his ramp. Send another ling to the watch tower, and send the final ling just above the gold expansion so you'll have some warning if he's coming.- 6:50 - Gas stealing at P's natural is very questionable. You should leave your drone in his base as long as possible. P won't want to put down tech structures where your drone can see them. So leaving your drone in there to scout (and delay P's tech) until he dies is a far better move than slowing down his gas.- 7:40 - This is where you SHOULD be scouting him with an OL. Your Drone didn't find any tech which is really weird for P at 7:00. However, you have NO overlords in position to scout him.- 8:30 - You need to work on your creep spread. I like that your injects are pretty good, but you don't have enough economy to support your larvae. By about this time you should have creep between your main and natural (in case of stargate play) and creep from your natural to your third so you can spine there.- 9:00 - You are making FAR too few drones. With three hatcheries and so much larvae, you should be pumping LOTS of drones so your economy can support that larvae. Meanwhile, P's economy is totally trashed right now. He went 3 gate colo and his economy can support a lot more than that. He's at 10:30 with nearly no army, very little tech, and no thermal lance.- 11:30 - Because you had so few drones, you couldn't punish P for waltzing in and taking a third.I'm going to stop right here since the rest of the game is meaningless. Your biggest problem is that you're not making enough drones. Protoss, even with his trashed economy, was still far ahead of you in probe production.I want you to think about this... LiquidRet is maxed at 13:00. If he can do it in Grandmasters, you can do it in whatever league you're in.Good luck.

CholmesInk Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 139 Posts #3



Trevor Thank you very much Fiel, notes taken and games will be changed!Trevor Twitch.tv/TrevorCholmes Follow me on twitter! @TrevorCholmes

Fiel Profile Joined March 2010 United States 587 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-03 07:19:15 #4



- 2:30 - Good on you to act like you're fighting for the natural when you've already pooled. Let him put down that pylon and think he's ahead.

- 2:50 - Your OL placement is bad again. Your first OL should go to the rocks at the 9. Your second OL should go to the 1 o clock position.

- 3:00 - Why are you following his probe back to his base? You already have a drone in his natural. I don't follow.

- 3:30 - Gas steals in the natural isn't worth it. A better move would be to move your drone into the main before his cannon went up. Then waste time in there for a while so P can't tech well.

- 4:00 - Why did you do the weird rallying with your four lings when one ling could have done the job just as well? Send one ling to scout for cheese, one ling to poke at his natural, one ling at the watchtower, and one ling wherever else you want.

- 5:30 - High five bro. High five. EDIT: An even better decision would have been to focus down the Artosis Pylon if you had more lings. You probably could have won the game doing that.

- 5:55 - BOOOOOO. Never attack a group of probes like that. This will require more APM, but go in and harass one probe at a time and force him to pull probes off the mineral line to attack you. This will result in more mining time lost for P and he might make a mistake on top of that.

- 6:00 - Your immediate reaction when you lose all your lings should be to make more lings! Lings give you map control which you need to react to whatever shenanigans P pulls. You are absolutely blind, and that would make me very worried as Z.

- 7:20 - You made two spines at your natural. You should only make spines when you're worried about something. P has shown no signs of impending aggression. If you look at P's base he has 2 sentries (to counteract weak FFE on Shattered). P is absolutely no threat to you at this point. Ah... but you don't know that because you have no map control.

- 7:20 - Every time where the enemy is no threat to you, make drones. Always be thinking about ways you can make more drones. Win a battle? Make drones. He has no army? Make drones. You feel safe? Make drones. You should always be searching for reasons to make drones. It should be one of your top priorities. Think about nothing but making drones. Did I forget to mention making drones? I think you should make drones.

- 7:50 - You should be suiciding 2-3 lings right now to see what's in his natural. An Overlord should be going over his main to scout his tech choices.

- 8:30 - You made a Roach Warren but no roaches. You got +1 missile, and you got Lair tech. So you're getting all this tech but you haven't reaped any benefits from it. That's something you should really look at.

- 8:30 - Right now (or a little beforehand) you should have Roach/ling breaking down your rocks to the gold or NW base. At least move your spines up so you can hit the rocks.

- 11:00 - Lots of good decisions now. You're breaking down P's third's rocks, dropping creep on his expansions, taking your own third... But only 35 drones at 11:00 is killing you. It's totally messing you up.



From here on out the game is meaningless. You should have at least 60 drones by the 10 minute mark. That's two fully saturated bases. For whatever reason, you stop droning at the 5:00 mark when that's the absolute best time to drone. ZvP#2- 2:30 - Good on you to act like you're fighting for the natural when you've already pooled. Let him put down that pylon and think he's ahead.- 2:50 - Your OL placement is bad again. Your first OL should go to the rocks at the 9. Your second OL should go to the 1 o clock position.- 3:00 - Why are you following his probe back to his base? You already have a drone in his natural. I don't follow.- 3:30 - Gas steals in the natural isn't worth it. A better move would be to move your drone into the main before his cannon went up. Then waste time in there for a while so P can't tech well.- 4:00 - Why did you do the weird rallying with your four lings when one ling could have done the job just as well? Send one ling to scout for cheese, one ling to poke at his natural, one ling at the watchtower, and one ling wherever else you want.- 5:30 - High five bro. High five. EDIT: An even better decision would have been to focus down the Artosis Pylon if you had more lings. You probably could have won the game doing that.- 5:55 - BOOOOOO. Never attack a group of probes like that. This will require more APM, but go in and harass one probe at a time and force him to pull probes off the mineral line to attack you. This will result in more mining time lost for P and he might make a mistake on top of that.- 6:00 - Your immediate reaction when you lose all your lings should be to make more lings! Lings give you map control which you need to react to whatever shenanigans P pulls. You are absolutely blind, and that would make me very worried as Z.- 7:20 - You made two spines at your natural. You should only make spines when you're worried about something. P has shown no signs of impending aggression. If you look at P's base he has 2 sentries (to counteract weak FFE on Shattered). P is absolutely no threat to you at this point. Ah... but you don't know that because you have no map control.- 7:20 - Every time where the enemy is no threat to you, make drones. Always be thinking about ways you can make more drones. Win a battle? Make drones. He has no army? Make drones. You feel safe? Make drones. You should always be searching for reasons to make drones. It should be one of your top priorities. Think about nothing but making drones. Did I forget to mention making drones? I think you should make drones.- 7:50 - You should be suiciding 2-3 lings right now to see what's in his natural. An Overlord should be going over his main to scout his tech choices.- 8:30 - You made a Roach Warren but no roaches. You got +1 missile, and you got Lair tech. So you're getting all this tech but you haven't reaped any benefits from it. That's something you should really look at.- 8:30 - Right now (or a little beforehand) you should have Roach/ling breaking down your rocks to the gold or NW base. At least move your spines up so you can hit the rocks.- 11:00 - Lots of good decisions now. You're breaking down P's third's rocks, dropping creep on his expansions, taking your own third... But only 35 drones at 11:00 is killing you. It's totally messing you up.From here on out the game is meaningless. You should have at least 60 drones by the 10 minute mark. That's two fully saturated bases. For whatever reason, you stop droning at the 5:00 mark when that's the absolute best time to drone.

zylog Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 943 Posts #5 Ok I'll try doing the ZvZ.



GAME1



- Opening is a bit weird. Going pool, hatch then gas lacks the economy of a hatch first opening and also the possibility of early aggression from getting an earlier gas. To be fair your opponent was doing a similar opening, but I would still prefer either hatch first or 14g14p against such an opening

- Even though you both did similar openings, you need to be able to read the subtler cues to know whether to be aggressive or defensive. He had a slightly earlier hatch than you, and a slightly later gas. If you scouted him shortly after, you would have seen an earlier 2nd queen rather than the early spine. All this sets up the situation where he has a slight economy lead so he should play a bit defensively for a bit, and you should be a bit more aggressive, or at least feign aggression whil you catch up in economy.

- In light of this, going for the roach warren was a mistake, as it takes too long for you to be able to get a good number of roaches over to his base while he sits on a stronger economy. Going for a roach +1 timing attack is worse as it hits even later. Given his slight early economy lead, the minerals he saved not making the evo + roach warren so early, and the time to make even more drones off of this extra income means he has both an economy lead (30 drones to 22) and army lead (15 lings to 8). Your roach warren isn't yet done, and your +1 ranged still has over 2 minutes to go until it is done.

- By 8:30 it's 40 drones to 24, and the game is pretty much over by then.



GAME 2

If you're gonna ask for advice, why would you post this game?





CholmesInk Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 139 Posts #6 Thank you as well zylog, sorry about the second one, i messed up on the copy paste of the second ZvZ, it is Fixed up top. Thank you for pointing that out! and thank you for the great analysis



Trevor Twitch.tv/TrevorCholmes Follow me on twitter! @TrevorCholmes

psychotics Profile Joined July 2011 United States 184 Posts #7 Ok lots too talk about in zvz1



First personally i find that drone scouting is bad in zvz. IF you are scared of early pools then just do a super safe build 14-gas-14pool. you are losing mining time for nothing. You can get that scout in easily with ur first 4 lings and you will be in the same spot. your drone scout wont change your build (also if u do scout don't scout that early scout at 13-14).



Second the first spine you built was WAY too early. you saw he went pool hatch gas. this means there is NO way he can put any pressure on you for a while (needs atleast roachs/lingspeed or banes) save this for around when ur ling speed is done the spine will finish in time to stop anything.



Third overlords need to be spread between his base and your base until muta/hydra u should have 100% vision of the attack path. this will allow u to drone/make army accordingly.



Fourth, you never sac'ed an overlord or tried to run lings by to scout his units or tech this is essential in zvz if u make army and he makes drones and you don't attack with that army you end up falling behind which is why he was able to have so much. you had too little drones and too much tech.



going roaches off 2 hatches u can support with 2 gas u don't need 4 unless ur getting lots of upgrades (btw roach speed as soon as lair finishes when u are going roaches)



your defense of the banes was pretty good you held fine but the problem was u were already so far behind in drones it didnt matter.



Not really much to say about game2 kinda a bad all in by both of you yours worked slightly better lol 2 banes and u would have lost. also... if ur gona cheese/allin dont say you hate the matchup kinda makes them think your more likely to do something cheesy



Mid masters zerg with about a 60-70% win rate in zvz hope that helps.



ps: the zvz meta game is starting to shift towards ling bling-into mutas so you need to be better at scouting or u will just die to mutas :D



CholmesInk Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 139 Posts #8 Awesome Thank you very much Psychotics :D you are awesome! Twitch.tv/TrevorCholmes Follow me on twitter! @TrevorCholmes