Where to Find Laser Equipment and Parts

It is also possible to buy from private individuals on-line via classified ads in USENET newsgroups, other discussion groups and bulletin boards, auctions, and private Web sites.

Where actual manufacturer's model numbers are listed in the catalog or on the Web page, it is a good idea to confirm that the specifications actually do match. Inaccuracies in catalog entries are very common (like a HeNe laser listed as 5 mW that turns out to be only .5 mW, oops). Similarly, it would be disappointing to say the least if you blew a visible laser diode because the driver board actually required a regulated input when the listing claimed otherwise. :-(

Compare prices as well. There can be a wide variation in the price of the identical system or component among the various surplus houses or other suppliers. Haggling (at least with private individuals) may get you a better deal especially if you can identify lower prices elsewhere. More expensive items may be in better condition or newer, but not always - and it may not matter for your purposes. Consider using COD (Cash On Delivery) for payment if available (instead of a check, money order, or credit card) when dealing with a company for the first time or when in doubt about their integrity. For purchases from individuals, in addition to COD, a partial payment arrangement (e.g., 50% percent up front, 50% after receipt and inspection of merchandise) shouldn't scare off someone who has nothing to hide if they can verify *your* integrity. The latter shouldn't be a problem if you are a regular contributer to USENET newsgroups or frequent buyer and/or seller on eBay! :)

A commercial supplier should know how to pack and ship fragile merchandise to prevent damage. However, when ordering from a private individual or if you should need to send laser parts through the mail, or via UPS, Fed-X, Airborn, etc., packing should be done such that the box can withstand being drop-kicked from a 10 story building. Four inches of bubble-wrap or styrofoam peanuts on all sides should be considered a minimum with adequate protection between items as well. Insurance is also a worthwhile expense though successfully filing a claim could be an ordeal. Stickers marked 'Fragile' and 'Do Not Drop' may just make the package a more inviting target. :-)

Then, when you receive your merchandise, make sure you actually were sold what was expected. Confirm that it behaves as advertised. I have received HeNe laser power supplies marked with reversed polarity, for example. Honest (or otherwise) mistakes in packing and labelling do occur. And, of course, DO NOT open the inner packaging or attempt to power an item that was shipped in error as getting a refund may be much more difficult if the seller can honestly claim you damaged something.

I've only had to file an insurance claim once, with the U.S. Post Office (USPS). That was for a 15 to 20 mW HeNe laser head I had gotten along with a power supply on eBay. The bore of the laser head was fractured, most likely due to the package falling onto a concrete floor. (The power supply was not damaged.) From my perspective, the packing was not totally adequate but would have been fine for ordinary handling, even tossing it onto a pile of boxes. Thus, I would have not been terribly unhappy to have the the claim denied with an excuse of "inadequate packing". Then, I would go back to the seller and it is likely we would have come to some acceptable agreement. However, I filled out the claim form, obtained the insurance receipt and an itemized cost receipt from the seller, and included a description along with a diagram of the damage. I went into my local post office with these as well as the box and all packing material, the broken laser head partially disassembled so the damage could be easily seen, and a mockup of the power supply to show how everything was arranged. Since the claim was for only $50, they paid it on the spot. It turns out that $50 is the USPS limit for this - otherwise it would have had to go through the system, with an uncertain and no doubt long time to completion. (I did forgo reimbursement for part of the shipping cost but figured that a bird in the hand.....) Aside from just getting in under the instant payment limit in this case, one key to getting an insurance claim paid without hassle is no doubt having all the original packaging and complete documentation to present when filing the claim. And, with the value only being $50, I was dealing with a PO clerk, who had no vested interest in minimizing the cost to USPS or receiving bonuses based on the dollar value of rejected claims! :)

Also see the sections: Laser Sales and Service Companies and Laser and Optics Manufacturers and Suppliers for sources of mostly expensive laser products. However, some of those companies may have overstock and surplus sales as well as items like diode laser modules that are more reasonably priced.

Obviously, for a model that is still being sold, the manufacturer's literature or Web site will often provide enough info. User and service manuals may also be available as well as for older lasers that they still support. In addition, there may be many variations on a given model depending on the type of optics installed and possible tube replacement or upgrade.

Unfortunately, few manufacturers maintain detailed specifications or other information readily accessible (e.g., on-line) for older models. After all, why should they help you fix the laser that you've been happy with for the last 5 years for only $500 when they can sell you a shiny new and improved one for $20,000! :(

There are a variety of other places to look for specifications but their accuracy can vary based on the objectives of the provider (e.g., honesty, vested interests, optimism, technical knowledge).

Vintage Lasers and Accessories Brochures has scans of older catalogs, specifications sheets, and price lists, from several popular manufacturers (mostly HeNe lasers at present).

Companies that sell used or surplus laser equipment - If the model in question is in their catalog, the information you seek may be there. For example, Laser Resale, Inc has extensive listings for virtually all types of laser systems. Many others can be found in the sections: Mail Order - Lasers, Laser Parts, Optics, Accessories and Laser Sales and Service Companies. Just keep in mind that these are items for sale so power output ratings must be taken with a sliver of optical glass (at least for lasers like ion and ruby/YAG where output power is adjustable).

Also see the section: Buyer Beware for Laser Purchases.

Here are some comments on laser power and other claims that you should be aware of before purchasing a used laser:

Helium-Neon (HeNe) lasers: The power discrepancy is particularly evident with HeNe lasers where the model number and/or dimensions are provided. The tendency seems to be - possibly due to lack of knowledge, possibly for other reasons - to use the CDRH safety sticker rating (which is an upper bound for the laser safety classification) rather than the actual measured or specified optical power. Sometimes they do say 'max' (possibly in the fine print). This doesn't mean it is (or ever was) possible to run the laser at that power, and the actual output may be less than half of the maximum value listed (assuming the laser is functioning near its new product ratings). HeNe tubes are essentially constant optical output power devices - there is no way to get more power either with greater tube current (beam power actually goes down) or by using pulsed drive. For example, a HeNe laser with a CDRH Class IIIa 5 mW sticker may produce as little as 1 mW when new and even less after thousands of hours of use! A true 5 mW HeNe laser head will be at least 15 inches long and have a Class IIIb safety sticker. A classic defense of using the 'max' rating is to say that "the laser was spec'd as (say) 5 mW and thus calibrated at the factory for this power level but could go much higher". Balderdash! The only way to trim power of an HeNe laser (without an external attenuator) is to (1) run it with reverse polarity to sputter overcoat the anode-end mirror (which is irreversible) or (2) to slightly misalign one or both mirrors (which would compromise beam quality and stability and isn't likely to be done on purpose). Having said that, it is true that slight misalignment of the mirrors is common (either from use, thermal cycling, shock, or less than perfect quality control at the factory) and boosting power by some (usually modest) amount may be possible, even likely, by tweaking the mirrors - just don't count on it - or on a huge increase. But, first see the sections starting with: Problems with Mirror Alignment because it is very easy to totally mess up the alignment (or even break the tube) and never see any coherent light from your buy of a lifetime HeNe laser forever-after! Note that there are some multi-mode (non-TEM00) HeNe tubes with wider bores and a different mirror curvature that produce up to perhaps twice the power output for a given tube length. However, with multiple axial modes, these are not suitable for many applications like interferometry and holography. They are also not very common compared to single-mode TEM00 HeNe tubes. Also, the power output of non-red HeNe lasers - green (543.5 nm), yellow (593.9 nm), and orange (611.8 nm) - will be only about 1/10th to 1/4th that of an equivalent red (632.8 nm) one. Thus, a 20 inch green laser head is good for about 2 mW (compared to 8 to 15 mW for red) and a 10 inch head, perhaps only .2 mW (1 to 2 mW for red). As with normal red HeNe lasers, there is no way to boost power and the CDRH sticker rating is normally much greater than what is actually possible. However, the beam WILL look a lot brighter mW/mW compared to red due to the response curve of the eye, which can be misleading to sellers and buyers alike. Note: Since the gain of these wavelengths is so low, they also have a shorter life and the chance of finding working surplus green or yellow HeNe lasers is much lower than for red. I would not recommend bidding on an eBay auction for one of these unless guaranteed to be working. The likelihood of the problem for an "unknown condition" green or yellow HeNe laser being just mirror alignment is small to none! And, just because the male Alden connector of the laser head fits into the mating female socket of a randomly selected power supply doesn't mean they will work together! HeNe lasers of all sizes usually use the identical connectors! (Many people have been known to throw out perfectly good HeNe tubes and heads if they failed to start or operated erratically when in fact, power supply compatibility was the real problem!) On the other hand, don't assume compatibility just because the laser tube or head and power supply were supposed to work together - many of these same people have no idea what this means and make the assumption that because the laser worked once (if that), it would be fine forever. The life of the HeNe tube and/or power supply may be shortened and/or power output may suffer. Large-frame HeNe lasers like the Siemens LGK-7676/L/S and functionally similar Spectra-Physics 107/907 which show up on eBay and from surplus dealers either untested or without measured output power are probably high mileage tubes which may run but will not meet new power specs. However, they are very well built, really nice to play with, and probably have a lot of life left. Just don't expect good as new performance from them. Around 50 percent of rated power is typical. Finally, HeNe laser heads in like-new condition that show up as surplus or on eBay without end-caps (output aperture and Alden connectors) were probably manufacturing rejects pulled from the line before being completed since they didn't meet spec in any of a number of areas including: output power value, stability with warmup, mode cycling percentage, polarization ratio, or other aspects of beam quality. Thus, what you end up with may have undisclosed problems. This is also likely true of bare HeNe tubes (often without any identifying labels) - especially 'other color' (than red) types in pristine condition but where the locking collars or mirror adjusters are loose and the seller suggests that "alignment is all that is needed to make them lase and then you will have gotten a great deal". Note that it is likely that some of these have found their way to resale via less than legitimate channels - especially if the serial numbers have been removed! Even if they do work or can be made to work, items like this have trouble written all over them. And, don't believe claims that tubes were "purchased new and used very little" if they don't have any labels. A tube sold as a tube (not part of a laser head) will almost certainly be labeled with model and serial numbers at the very least, usually with a sticker on the side. Similarly, a laser head should also have a similar label. It's the law in both cases. And, even the manufacturer can't tell specs by inspection! :) Having said all this, a used or off-spec HeNe laser may still be just fine for many purposes as long as you understand exactly what you are getting. For more information on HeNe laser sizes and power output, see the sections starting with: Internal Mirror HeNe Tubes up to 35 mW - Red and Other Colors. And some have very interesting and unusual behavior. :)

The power discrepancy is particularly evident with HeNe lasers where the model number and/or dimensions are provided. The tendency seems to be - possibly due to lack of knowledge, possibly for other reasons - to use the CDRH safety sticker rating (which is an upper bound for the laser safety classification) rather than the actual measured or specified optical power. Sometimes they do say 'max' (possibly in the fine print). This doesn't mean it is (or ever was) possible to run the laser at that power, and the actual output may be less than half of the maximum value listed (assuming the laser is functioning near its new product ratings). HeNe tubes are essentially constant optical output power devices - there is no way to get more power either with greater tube current (beam power actually goes down) or by using pulsed drive. For example, a HeNe laser with a CDRH Class IIIa 5 mW sticker may produce as little as 1 mW when new and even less after thousands of hours of use! A true 5 mW HeNe laser head will be at least 15 inches long and have a Class IIIb safety sticker. A classic defense of using the 'max' rating is to say that "the laser was spec'd as (say) 5 mW and thus calibrated at the factory for this power level but could go much higher". Balderdash! The only way to trim power of an HeNe laser (without an external attenuator) is to (1) run it with reverse polarity to sputter overcoat the anode-end mirror (which is irreversible) or (2) to slightly misalign one or both mirrors (which would compromise beam quality and stability and isn't likely to be done on purpose). Having said that, it true that slight misalignment of the mirrors is common (either from use, thermal cycling, shock, or less than perfect quality control at the factory) and boosting power by some (usually modest) amount may be possible, even likely, by tweaking the mirrors - just don't count on it - or on a huge increase. But, first see the sections starting with: Problems with Mirror Alignment because it is very easy to totally mess up the alignment (or even break the tube) and never see any coherent light from your buy of a lifetime HeNe laser forever-after! Argon and/or krypton (Ar/Kr) ion lasers: It is much more difficult to determine actual ratings of small air-cooled Ar/Kr ion lasers based on size alone because the output from the same size laser head can span a range of 100:1 or more depending on specific model, age, operating current, or condition. The advertisement may specify the output when running at a current level that would result in a tube life of only a few hours or one not even obtainable with a typical power supply. Also see the section: Expected Output Power and Used Ion Lasers.

It is much more difficult to determine actual ratings of small air-cooled Ar/Kr ion lasers based on size alone because the output from the same size laser head can span a range of 100:1 or more depending on specific model, age, operating current, or condition. The advertisement may specify the output when running at a current level that would result in a tube life of only a few hours or one not even obtainable with a typical power supply. Carbon Dioxide (CO2) lasers: For CO2 and other gas lasers where models are even less well known and physical size may be an even less reliable indication of capabilities, examining a photo on a Web page or in a catalog isn't enough. And, damage or deterioration of the laser tube, water jacket, or optics cannot be determined without a detailed (in person) inspection.

For CO2 and other gas lasers where models are even less well known and physical size may be an even less reliable indication of capabilities, examining a photo on a Web page or in a catalog isn't enough. And, damage or deterioration of the laser tube, water jacket, or optics cannot be determined without a detailed (in person) inspection. Diode lasers: There is often even less info available on these unless they are from a well known laser company distributor like Edmund Scientific. Both wavelength and color may be optimistically specified. For example, laser pointers listed as 650 nm may actually be much closer to 660 nm which does not appear as bright and is therefore less desirable. The absolute maximum output power may be advertised but a laser diode really cannot be run at this level without a proper driver circuit, cooling, and a calibrated laser power meter to set it up - else bye-bye laser diode. :( And, the power ratings on the CDRH sticker, if it exists, may be grossly higher than what is possible even for a microsecond. I would recommend against even considering the purchase of high power diode lasers or laser diodes from eBay or other similar source unless they are supplied in their original sealed packaging, there is a no questions asked money back warranty that is enforceable, or you know the seller to be honest and aware of proper handling procedures for laser diodes. If you insist on bidding on one of these, compare the any specifications provided by the seller with the device's datasheet if possible. Sometimes, very professional looking charts will be included on the auction page without mentioning that they show a weak or damaged diode. Note that there are several sellers offering what they claim to be high power laser diodes suitable for DPSS laser pumping where a wavelength in the 808 to 810 nm range is needed. However, many of the surplus high power laser diodes originate from graphics arts equipment like platesetters which almost invariably use 820 to 880 nm diodes, most likely for cost reasons. So, an unscrupulous or unknowledgeable seller may be passing these off as DPSS laser pump diodes when in fact they are pretty worthless for that application. In fact, the only hobbyist use I know for these would be as burning lasers since the beam can be focused very nicely to carve wood or plastic or an unsuspecting finger. :( :) If what you're interested in is a diode pump for a DPSS laser, make sure the seller guarantees the wavelength to be close enough to 808 nm that modest cooling or heating (+10/-15 °C from 25 °C based on 0.3 nm/°C can tune the wavelength to the optimum value for peak absorption in the lasing crystal (usually, Nd:YVO 4 or Nd:YAG). Just showing a photo of one of these diodes producing green light from a DPSS laser crystal is not a sufficient test as there may be some output but it will be only a small fraction of what's possible with a diode emitting at 808 nm. Some sellers claim to have gotten significant green power from a DPSS laser crystal using diodes that look identical. My guess is that either (1) they were smoke'n sump'n or (2) the particular diode they were using was actually around 808 nm but that's no guarantee that the one in the auction will be as well.

There is often even less info available on these unless they are from a well known laser company distributor like Edmund Scientific. Both wavelength and color may be optimistically specified. For example, laser pointers listed as 650 nm may actually be much closer to 660 nm which does not appear as bright and is therefore less desirable. The absolute maximum output power may be advertised but a laser diode really cannot be run at this level without a proper driver circuit, cooling, and a calibrated laser power meter to set it up - else bye-bye laser diode. :( And, the power ratings on the CDRH sticker, if it exists, may be grossly higher than what is possible even for a microsecond. Lamp Pumped Solid State (LPSS) lasers: Likewise, for pulsed or CW LPSS lasers provided as kits of parts (which is probably most common for types like Nd:YAG or ruby other than the M60 rangefinder), be aware that some surplus laser parts suppliers are offering components that simply will not work as advertised. See the section: Comments on Surplus Solid State Lasers and Components for additional details. Where an entire LPSS laser head or complete laser is offered, the only way to really know what is can do is to check the manufacturer's specs or test it. In most cases, the seller isn't able or won't do this so you're on your own.

Likewise, for pulsed or CW LPSS lasers provided as kits of parts (which is probably most common for types like Nd:YAG or ruby other than the M60 rangefinder), be aware that some surplus laser parts suppliers are offering components that simply will not work as advertised. See the section: Comments on Surplus Solid State Lasers and Components for additional details. Diode Pumped Solid State (DPSS) lasers have all the potential problems of both diode lasers and solid state lasers so the comments above apply. In addition, it is quite likely that a complete DPSS laser being offered on eBay - especially with a low opening bid or low reserve - if it works at all, is likely to have end-of-life pump diodes and thus reduced output power and poor stability. Green DPSS lasers like the Coherent Compass 532 series show up with reduced output requiring either an expensive (and possibly very complex or impossible) pump diode transplant to meet specs, or a total electrical realignment to operate stably at reduced power. Those like the Coherent Compass 315M and 415M often are sold without the ($2K) Coherent controller. Both of these require a laser diode driver and three (3) TEC drivers to achieve their rated output power and stability - not something for a casual hobbyist type to construct. Unless the condition and requirements for a DPSS laser can be reliably determined, such a system could turn out to be entirely useless for serious applications including holography and laser shows. Furthermore, as with other types of lasers, the CDRH rating is almost always much higher than anything that can be achieved and sustained in practice. For example, Coherent C315M-100 lasers have a "300 mW max" rating and Uniphase uGreen 4601-10, -20, and -50 lasers have a "125 mW" max rating. Realistic maximum output power is not likely to exceed 1/3 to 1/2 of either of these and may be much less in the case of the lower power uGreen lasers.

For more info, also see the section: About Laser Power Ratings.

Attempt to determine what is actually possible - don't take the seller's word for it. You can't confirm actual output over the Internet or from a catalog but at least you will know that you aren't likely to get 5 mW from a HeNe laser head only 10 inches long, 300 mW from a surplus ALC-60X argon ion laser without a meltdown, or 125 mW from *any* Uniphase uGreen laser!

Many people also claim that the lasers they are selling have low hours or were only used briefly a few times ("only driven by a little old lady to church on Sundays."). In most cases they actually don't have a clue and such claims carry about as much weight as the campaign promises of politicians. :) Unless the laser was originally purchased new, they (or you) may have no real way of determining how much it was used. For HeNe lasers, this may not matter that much since if the laser works when you get it, it will probably continue to work for as many hours as you are likely to care. But for ion lasers, you could be getting a low pressure tube that is on its way out. While there is usually an elapsed time meter present on ion lasers it isn't a reliable indication of past use as the tube may have been swapped or a mechanical meter may have recycled back to zero (more than once!) and like automobile odometers, can be reset. With other types of lasers, it may be even more difficult to determine the amount of use. High power diode lasers and diode pumped solid state lasers may have a life expentancy of only a few thousand hours to begin with and the one being offered may be near the end of useful life. And, if abused at any time, all bets are off and it may not even make a good boat anchor!

Finally, here are some other common statements paraphrased from various actual eBay offerings:

Description: Laser tube ionizes but I don't know if it lases.

Translation: There is no beam when driven with my power supply.

Translation: There is no beam when driven with my power supply. Description: Power supply arcs trying to start tube. It needs minor repair.

Translation: Laser probably needs new tube.

Translation: Laser probably needs new tube. Description: These argon ion laser tubes are nearly new and ready to use.

Translation: They are not split in half but their condition is otherwise unknown.

Translation: They are not split in half but their condition is otherwise unknown. Description: I bypassed the switch and it powered right up.

Translation: The Power light came on.

Translation: The Power light came on. Description: This auction is for three unused lasers.

Translation: I haven't attempted to power these pieces of junk since pulling them from the dumpster.

Translation: I haven't attempted to power these pieces of junk since pulling them from the dumpster. Description: This laser has very low hours.

Translation: I haven't used it much since pulling it from the same dumpster.

Translation: I haven't used it much since pulling it from the same dumpster. Description: This HeNe laser power supply is rated 5 mA at 1.5 kV but will run four foot long tubes if the input voltage is tripled.

Translation: The long tubes might flash just before the smoke comes out of the power supply.

Translation: The long tubes might flash just before the smoke comes out of the power supply. Description: Untested.

Translation: It looks like a laser or, I had Joe plut it in and it behaved like a brick but I did not test it. :)

Translation: It looks like a laser or, I had Joe plut it in and it behaved like a brick but I did not test it. :) Description: Laser is marked 15.3 mW and came from working equipment.

Translation: Original power output was 15.3 mW but now may be much lower.

Translation: Original power output was 15.3 mW but now may be much lower. Description: Laser has power output of 8.5 mW but I am unable to test it.

Translation: Original power output was 8.5 mW but it may be dead now.

Translation: Original power output was 8.5 mW but it may be dead now. Description: Laser is in original factory crate.

Translation: Broken laser was removed from service and put into the crate in which the replacement was shipped.

Translation: Broken laser was removed from service and put into the crate in which the replacement was shipped. Description: The resale value is over $1,000.

Translation: The original highly marked up price for a replacement in one particular piece of equipment was over $1,000.

Translation: The original highly marked up price for a replacement in one particular piece of equipment was over $1,000. Description: This laser is used, working condition is unknown. Tube is cracked and broken.

Translation: The remains of this laser may be useful as a doorstop.

Translation: The remains of this laser may be useful as a doorstop. Description: Laser system is complete, just plug it in. Untested but in excellent cosmetic condition.

Translation: I plugged it in and nothing happened but it looks nice.

Translation: I plugged it in and nothing happened but it looks nice. Description: The capillary on this green HeNe laser tube is broken off inside the cathode, but this won't affect operation as it doesn't block the beam.

Translation: The already very marginal gain for the green wavelength is now much lower. The tube is now only useful to salvage the mirrors.

Translation: The already very marginal gain for the green wavelength is now much lower. The tube is now only useful to salvage the mirrors. Description: This laser is a little scratched up on the outside but looks great inside.

Translation: I plugged it in, turned it on, and nothing happened.

Translation: I plugged it in, turned it on, and nothing happened. Description: These lasers haven't been tested in over a year and are sold as-is.

Translation: Over a year ago they didn't work.

Translation: Over a year ago they didn't work. Description: Powers up and appears to be in good working condition accept for a broken bulb in the laser. Guaranteed not to be dead on arrival.

Translation: The laser tube is smashed but the power supply lights come on. It might make a decent door stop.

Translation: The laser tube is smashed but the power supply lights come on. It might make a decent door stop. Description: These HeNe laser mirrors are new in bag.

Translation: The mirrors were ripped from dead HeNe laser tubes but are now in a new plastic bag.

Translation: The mirrors were ripped from dead HeNe laser tubes but are now in a new plastic bag. Description: We have tested this unit for power, and it does power up. Light is also emitted. Functionality beyond that is unknown, so it will be offered as-is.

Translation: The tube is dead and it's just blue bore light but it looks nice.

Translation: The tube is dead and it's just blue bore light but it looks nice. Description: In good physical condition from deactivated inventory.

Translation: They kept the dead junk on the books to boost the value of the company to investors.

Translation: They kept the dead junk on the books to boost the value of the company to investors. Description: This laser has been tested. (No further comments.)

Translation: This laser had been tested and is dead.

Translation: This laser had been tested and is dead. Description: Don't know much about this setup, but the control box powers up fine.

Translation: The power light comes on but the HeNe laser power supply brick or HeNe laser head is totally dead.

Translation: The power light comes on but the HeNe laser power supply brick or HeNe laser head is totally dead. Description: This power supply will run HeNe lasers up to 5 mW.

Translation: This power supply will run HeNe lasers with safety sticker ratings up to 5 mW, actual rated power of 1 or 2 mW.

Translation: This power supply will run HeNe lasers with safety sticker ratings up to 5 mW, actual rated power of 1 or 2 mW. Description: This laser came from a working environment.

Translation: This laser was found stuffed in a cabinet outside the clean room.

Whether buying from a surplus outfit or a private individual, don't expect to get a new laser for bargain basement prices. The well known laser surplus places may buy up reject inventory from major laser companies like Melles Griot - laser heads and tubes that didn't meet spec even when new. Unless the item is clearly stated to be new and meets new specs, this can probably be assumed. If the model number is given, sometimes it's possible to tell a reject. For example, with Melles Griot lasers, a '-Q' suffix (e.g., 05-LYR-171-Q) means that the yellow HeNe laser head (in this case) didn't meet specs but still lases somewhat - its performance wasn't so terrible that it went to the crusher. (I have one that varies between 1.5 and 2.5 mW of yellow on a several minute cycle due to 3.391 um IR mode competition. It's still a very nice laser but not useful for many applications.) However, even if you know what to look for, the Q designation may not make it to sticker attached to the laser. With private sales there are several more levels of unknowns unless the laser was purchased new (unlikely!), the seller worked for a company that purchased it new before the project was cancelled, or the pedigree is completely known. :)

And the most amusing listings I've seen on eBay lately go something like: "Argon-Ion Laser Tube Air-Cooled Add Gas and Go". Right, like all that is needed is a bottle of argon gas from your friendly welding supplier. Not! Even if these are usable at all (they could very well be rejects), just a bit more is needed. See the chapters on argon/krypton ion lasers before you end up with an expensive paperweight.

The only real way to protect yourself from deceptive or exaggerated advertising claims is a combination of getting the detailed specifications, buying from a reputable supplier, and obtaining a purchase arrangement that includes a binding money back guarantee in writing or some other way of cancelling a deal for merchandise that turns out not to be or do what was claimed!

Of course, once you receive your laser, the only way to be truly sure of the output power is with a laser power meter or by comparison with another laser of known performance.

Remember: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. You aren't likely to be the only one to have 'discovered' a bargain - if no one else has bid it up at eBay there is probably a very good reason!

Also see the section: Equivalent Brightness Ratings and Laser Pointer Visibility since this is another area where the real and the imaginary are often jumbled together!

Be truthful and complete in your description. For lasers, include the actual output power if relevant, not just the safety information. If the item has known defects which affect functionality, list them. You might get away with stretching the truth a few times but eventually, your reputation will suffer.

Include a few selected small photos of the equipment, inside and out. Use thumbnail links to high resolution photos but don't force them to be loaded unless requested. Not everyone has a cable modem, DSL, or a T3 line!

selected photos of the equipment, inside and out. Use thumbnail links to high resolution photos but don't force them to be loaded unless requested. Not everyone has a cable modem, DSL, or a T3 line! Make some effort to compose the photos so they show your item(s) in the best light and with decent clarity to show knob and meter scales, labels, etc.

Take a minute to do some basic dusting and cleaning. If the item looks like it has been at the bottom of a sewer, you won't get the best price!

If you can't take photos of the actual equipment and want to use some stock photos from a manufacturer's Web site or brochure, state clearly the origin of the photos and that they are "typical" and not of the exact items that are being offered. Above all, don't just grab something off the Web without permission! That's a copyright violation. If you can't or don't want to get permission, use a link to their Web site instead. The laser community is small enough that it's usually obvious when there is plagerism.

Include all label information in the text description even if it doesn't make sense to you.

Keep the listing simple. My advice is to NOT use Java or Javascript since it doesn't add anything. Flashing and gyrating animations take longer to load and may annoy viewers of your auctions. Also, keep the Web HTML to the basics as well - various browser versions may choke on fancy tables and other more involved HTML. Avoid pop-ups like the plague. :) And, view your listing once its uploaded and "live", make sure everything is there and the photos show up! Then you can easily fix it before there are any bids.

As with photos, don't drop someone else's description into your listing without permission. Use a link to their Web site instead.

Be clear about the shipping and any other costs above the asking or bid price. Include the approximate shipping weight and your ZIP code so buyers can estimate shipping costs if you don't have them listed. Don't short change yourself by omitting the cost and weight of essential packaging materials. Just don't be greedy and attempt to boost your income with clearly inflated S&H. People don't like to be hit with IPM (Increased Profit Margin)!

Make an attempt to test items if at all possible. The bid price is likely to be many times higher for a "tested and guaranteed not DOA" item than for the identical item "untested, sold as-is". For a single one of a kind HeNe laser power supply, this may not be worth it. But if you will be selling a couple dozen, the cost of a laser head for testing will easily be made up on the first or second sale and the laser head can always be sold afterwards.

For "reserve auctions", my recommendation is that the reserve price be included in the description but that's your preference. I get annoyed bidding on something to only find out there was a ridiculously high reserve on it. Better yet is to simply start the bidding at what you consider the minimum acceptable price for the item.

List the forms of payment accepted and any additional charges for the use of money transfer services like PayPal.

Include a brief summary of the conditions of sale including whether there is any sort of guarantee. This can be a link if desired.

With respect to returns, my recommendation is that items should be returnable in undamaged condition within say, 10 days, minus shipping charges if they were correctly represented. If misrepresented, then the seller should pay shipping both ways as well as any buyer costs (e.g., money transfer service fees) associated with the transaction.

Respond to email promptly, be courteous, and answer in complete properly punctuated sentences. This will give the potential buyer the feeling you care about them.

After the sale, make an effort to pack the item properly with enough cushioning so the gorillas at the shipping company can't break it even if they try really hard. :) For a small laser tube, this means 3 or 4 inches of styrofoam peanuts and/or small-bubble bubble wrap on all sides; for large lasers, this plus a box within a box or crate approach with appropriate damage insurance and documentation to show original condition and fair market value. See the other sections on shipping in this chapter.

Use either a shipping company that has tracking (UPS, FedEx, etc.) or the USPS with "Delivery Confirmation" so you know the package at least got to its destination and the buyer can't claim non-delivery.

An automated "checkout" procedure is most convenient for buyers but only if it works smoothly and it's clear how and when to use it!

Having said all that, I did a very scientific test with one of my dead Spectra-Physics 084-1 barcode scanner HeNe laser tubes from which I had already cannibalized the mirrors. This is about 10 inches long with a spider supporting the bore (the most fragile part in an HeNe tube subjected to mechanical shock) at about the halfway point. I used about 2 to 3 inches of bubble wrap all around and stuffed it into a worn cardboard box about 5" x 6" x 13" 'sealed' with an elastic band. I then abused this package to every way possible short of using a nuclear bomb (which were temporarily out of stock): Tossing it across the room, dropping on various sides and corners with and without spin from 7 feet onto a concrete floor, kicking it through the uprights, sitting on it, etc. The mirrorless tube survived just fine - the bore was well supported. What does this mean? Probably not much except for this particular model HeNe tube and it is still possible that the bore shifted slightly within the spider. There is no way to know that for sure without testing on a live tube (but it can also generally be corrected). However, in all likelihood, the typical HeNe tube would work just fine if packed in this manner (or better) even after all the abuse OOPS could dish out. :) Of course, an entire external mirror laser would likely be a much different story, especially one with a long plasma tube. And even if the glass parts survive, circuit boards and structural components can fracture from relatively low G forces if not well supported (due to poor design).

Of course, the general rule is: If you ship a dead laser wrapped only in a single layer of brown paper, it will arrive in perfect condition. But, if you ship a functional laser in 6 inches of foam inside a box inside 12 inches of bubble wrap inside another box inside a crate, it will arrive in a thousand pieces. :) And if you then try to file a claim, it is possible for the carrier to insist that no amount of packing material is adequate.

And as far as plastering the package with "Fragile" and "Handle with Care" stickers, I'm not convinced that there is any correlation between the number, size, and color of the stickers and survival rate. There may even be a negative correlation - such markings simply make your package a more inviting target. Even putting a high value on a package - not to be able to claim it if there is damage but simply to make the shipper take more care in handling - may not work. So, as noted above, the only way to have reasonable assurance of a laser or any delicate or fragile equipment arriving intact is to pack so that it can be dropped from a 747 at cruising altitude without a parachute and not be damaged.

The only relatively common similar item I know of that is more fragile than a laser tube is a rotating anode X-ray tube. (This is what X-ray types call the "insert", not the entire X-ray head.) With these, the heavy anode/motor assembly - which may weigh several pounds - is attached to the glass envelope only at one end with most of the mass at the unsupported end. So, even though the glass is rather thick and would normally survive some trauma, a relatively modest physical shock will cause the tube to fracture. To have any chance of survival during shipping, the anode/motor assembly must either be secured to a rigid structure as it is when mounted in the X-ray head assembly so that it can't flex with respect to the glass envelope, or the entire glass tube must be packed with something like 12 inches of soft foam rubber all around to minimize the g-forces when the box drops onto the sorting conveyer from 10 feet up. And even this is no guarantee.

Note that no matter how well packed a laser is, shipping companies may give you a hard time about insurance claims and point to some disclaimer in their contract printed in 2 point type that disallows any coverage for lasers and other scientific apparatus. Some don't even consider the manufacturer's original packaging to be adequate even for computer monitors, let alone lasers. Of course, the seller may have simply sent you a broken laser. :(

Here are some somewhat humorous but all too true guidelines. This was originally posted to the USENET newsgroup alt.lasers for a specific shipping company, whose name I have deleted.

(Based on a posting from: NiteliteProducts.com (dglassburn@mindspring.com).)

Many years of experience has shown that insurance claims through shipping companies are next to impossible to recover. Their reasons are as follows and they will deny claims in the following order:

You did not insure the item. If you did go to Step 2. Item was incorrectly packed. They will stall about 1 to 2 months to have someone inspect the package. If packed well go to Step 3. Read the print in the shipping booklet. Glass and ceramic items are probably not covered. Go to Step 4. Take them to court. Unless you feel like supporting the legal profession, you won't win anyway. give it up. Go to Step 5. If the item was insured and clearly damaged in transit (like a forklift went through it or a truck rolled over it), they won't pay. Major companies that ship all the time provide their own extra insurance coverage for this problem. Best bet is to ship with properly packed and supported parts so that anything short of (and possibly including) a nuclear bomb won't damage the laser.

In fact, I deal with a company that ships metrology lasers all over the World and they never insure with the shipping company for more than the minimum. I do not believe they even self insure. But, everything is very well packed and no credible amount of abuse is likely to cause damage. These are small lasers so it's not that difficult.

(From: Steve Roberts.)

I carefully build crates around my lasers, and insulate the lasers from shock with spray in foam that self hardens. Its a wonder how two of my crates have been reduced to kindling lately. One arrived sans crate! A third CO2 tube marked for special fragile handling by UPS (often pronounced OOOPS) didn't make it, it's been reduced to scrap glass. Same for an incredibly well packed 50 mW HeNe laser last year. I specified and paid for FedEx, but the seller used OOOOPPS to pocket the difference and ended up paying for my dead laser as a reward.

As for the broken CO2 tube, I'm driving 250 miles each way to replace it for the customer to keep my sanity, and my truck has a good suspension. According to a local driver, all OOOOOPPPSS packages drop 6 feet into a rotary sorting bin. I've had a few customers spec OOOOOPPPPSSS lately because FedEx was too expensive. Never again!

I've had good luck with FedEx, only one package ever got smashed. Delta Air Freight also has done a decent job for me.

For small air-cooled lasers I've used the U.S. Postal Service, sent 'registered', so it's hand carried and locked up each night in a safe. I Had remarkably good results with the snail mail folks - slow, but it gets there in one piece. A little pricey, but competitive.

Some suggestions:

Pack the laser in several layers of bubble wrap, tightly taped round the unit. This then goes in a cardboard box, with several INCHES of foam pellets around it. This then goes into a crate with 3 to 4 inches of spacing between it and the cardboard box, either filled with solid foam or sprayed in foam. Expect the crate to disappear by the time the unit arrives at its destination (if it ever does). If it's a Spectra-Physics or similar glass tube, pull off the Brewster stem covers so they don't break the long glass stems by inertia or vibration. Put a block of soft foam under the tube at the brewsters and under any long runs of unsupported glass. Gently tape or somehow hold down (RTV or Liquid Rubber?) long glass return paths on lasers that have them. Glass does flex a little and will break, so any appendages on the tube like gauges, fill stems, and gas reservoirs, must be anchored down in such a way they can flex to survive vibration but not snap off. Sometimes it's best to remove the plasma tube and anchor it to a carefully designed board shipped in a different box insured as a plasma tube so they can't wiggle out of an insurance claim if it arrives in pieces. Joe Sixpack at OOOOOOOOOPPPPPPSSSSS figures his 4,000 pound car isn't fragile, so your 600 pound laser must not be either. If it's a big heavy laser system, put it on a proper skid, so they don't jury rig it onto a forklift. Finally, clearly mark it as a HEAVY IRON ANVIL, SO THEY WILL HANDLE IT LIKE IT'S MADE FROM BIRDS EGGS. ;-0

(From: Bob.)

I recently had a problem with UPS breaking something on me, and although they paid the insurance claim, I looked to ways to better package fragile items. I have come up with the following: Wrap the breakable in a few layers of small bubble bubble wrap. This provides a layer of cushioning for the object. Then use self expanding polyurathane foam just like the stuff used in foam-in-place machines, but this stuff is the 2 pounds/cubic foot foam used in building boats. Two gallons of the stuff runs about $40 and is enough to fill a 55 gallon drum about 2/3rds full. The cool thing about this stuff is that if you use it to ship your items, they truly become indestructable. Use cheap industrial type trash bags to keep the foam from getting on the cardboard box and what you are shipping. Make a 'seat' of foam to lay the breakable in, then fill in the box with another trash bag and then foam fill, so that the box is totally full of foam. Make sure you use at least 4 to 6 inches of foam on all sides. So long as you start out with a cardboard box of decent integrity, you now have an in-destructable shipping box. I recently shipped a large X-ray tube in a double corrugated cardboard box that was 18 x 18 x 18 inches. At first the UPS manager didn't want to accept the shipment saying it wasn't properly packed for a fragile item. I then knocked the box off of the counter it sat on, stood on it, and hopped up and down a few times. Needless to say a proper application of marine foam is super strong!!! It still has some give to it, so if a box was dropped on a corner it would dent a small bit (you want some degree of deformation, otherwise you don't have any shock absorption effect going on!), but it makes your box virtually drop and or crush proof. I use the stuff to ship ANYTHING thats fragile now.

(From: Laserlover (rpoulin@rohcg.on.ca).)

I use MSAS Cargo International and add "All Perils" Insurance coverage to cover my butt and packing has to be up to their standards. All the other carriers like Fed-Ex, DHL, Purolator and the infamous UPS (OOOPSsss) will only pay for loss (mechanical damage) - and forget about anything made of glass or ceramic. MSAS Cargo International won't try to screw you as long as you can prove value of goods with quote from the original company or second source in the industry. Also take pictures before and after packing to prove integrity of goods being shipped.

The following definitely belongs in the humor department though it would be effective.

(From: Rob (rob@lasers.org).)

Ship all lasers in coffins or caskets!

Most shipping people honor the dead as they can relate to dead relatives. No fork lift driver is going to stab a casket, Think of what smell or guts might come out the hole. They are usually rounded on top, and the sides are not flat (delicate handles) so no stacking. They aren't going to stand it on end, just in case a body falls out, they don't want any part of touching a dead person. They will be eager to get your package there on time. They don't want that thing sitting in a corner, or in their warehouse. If they lose it, the may fear criminal prosecution, or surely a investigation.

I can see it now. When picking up the package from the airport, opening it up for inspection just to see the looks in their face as you open it on their dock. Shippers may feel sorry for you, and airlines may give you a free ticket to fly along with it, or at least priority seating.

Didn't they do this during Prohibition? Well, at least in the Jack Lemon movie "Some Like It Hot". :) --- Sam.

(The following approach was inspired by a laser packed and shipped to me by George Sohnle. I have added to it slightly.)

Use a heavy cardboard shipping box with minimum dimensions of 14x15x50 inches. This is still within the maximum dimensions (girth plus length, or 108 inches in this case) of most carriers, for Ground shipping at least.

Check that the 4 screws (on the bottom of the laser) holding the SP-127 tube/resonator assembly in place are tight. It would be a real bummer to find out that while the packing did its job, the guts came loose and were happily bouncing themselves to death inside. Remove the key(s) and line cord. Wrap the laser in a large plastic bag to keep packing debris out. Wrap this in 3 or 4 layers of small bubble bubble-wrap all around and at both ends. Construct an inner "box" from polyurethane or styrofoam 1" thick building insulation that snugly encloses the wrapped laser. Use packing tape to secure it all around and at the ends. This material is available at any building supply store or home center and can be cut with a knife. Line the shipping box on all six sides with a layer of similar 1" thick building insulation. Wrap the inner box with enough layers of bubble wrap so that it is a snug fit in the lined shipping box. An alternative is to use packing peanuts but there should then be some type of resilient spacers to assure that the inner box remains centered within the shipping box and can't settle during shipping. Add several inches of medium density plastic foam at each end. (What I mean here is something stiffer than foam rubber but more resilient than the building insulation foam.) Put the key(s) and line cord in a plastic bag and tape in an obvious place so they won't be lost if the box gets torn. Secure the box with multiple layers of strong packing tape. Label it Fragile, Do Not Drop, Delicate Glass Crystal, Do Not Stand on End, and Slimy Biological Specimens May Leak and Stink if Damaged. Only the last one is likely to have any effect on how it is handled by the shipping company, but the others may help if an insurance claim needs to be filed. It probably shouldn't be labeled "laser". :)

For the laser I received, the box and most of the packing is in a condition that can be reused. So, if and when I ship this laser, I'll probably factor a deposit (like $50) into the shipping cost, so the buyer can send it back to me.

(From: Someone who has had bad luck with laser shipping.)

The box was at least 6" larger or more on each side of the laser head. I still have the box. The box is perfect and still is.

I can only figure it took a nasty drop by the shipping company. I was at my local hub and I got to witness something that made me about pass out.

I saw 3 huge boxes come out of the truck and go onto a roll table. Then came a little box. Then about 2 minutes later, 4 large boxes. When the 4 large boxes pushed the little one into the 3 large boxes and stop, the little box in the middle just made a sound like a glass bottle got crushed.

You could see that it was crushed to 1/3rd its size. I'm like that's gone. They still put it in the truck to get shipped out.

So after seeing that I can only imagine what my poor laser went though.

That's why I phone to pick items up. As I told you I know our local hub manager and when I know a package is coming in. I phone him, he will set it aside so I can pick it up. Only if I am unable to pick it up will I allow it to be delivered. Then it bounces on the truck until 4 to 4:30 PM when they are in my area.

(From: Sam.)

I wonder about that. The SP-127 box wasn't damaged at all? The tube is rather well mounted assuming it's original SP construction with all screws installed and tightened. It should be fastened at both ends, two straps for the large cathode bulb, and the two bore straightening assemblies. So, if the box is filled with packing peanuts or foam and the laws of physics still apply inside the box, it would take a really phenomenal shock to break the tube.

At the very least, you will need to provide an invoice to the shipper (e.g., USPS, UPS) listing the item(s) to be shipped and the declared value. I do avoid using the word "laser" so as not to risk an overzealous or just greedy inspector from attempting to dig out an overdriven laser pointer. So far, I've shipped a variety of (non-weapon) lasers overseas without incident. For small HeNe lasers, I just put "barcode scanner tube" (for the SP-084) and "particle scanner tube" (for the one-Brewster Climet 9048) with a declared value of $0.00 on the invoice and on the Postal form (for total weight under 4 pounds), marked them as a "gift". These weigh next to nothing so they don't attract the attention of overworked customs inspectors and there's nothing illegal about shipping these lasers to most foreign countries anyhow. Putting some small value other than $0 may attract even less attention though.

For larger HeNe lasers or DPSS lasers where insurance is desired, the value for Customs can't be less than the insured value. So the buyer may need to pay duty or VAT or whatever, but that's still worthwhile given the overall discount compared to new! However, as noted elsewhere, getting major insurance claims honored for damage may be impossible, so packing must be even better for international shipments. And should the package be lost, you'll need proof of value to have any chance of getting it paid. I've yet to have anything actually lost, though USPS did "misplace" a large HeNe laser for a month or two. It somehow ended up in U.S. Customs, when it should have been going out of the USA. Then, just as I was about to file a claim, it mysteriously got moving in the proper direction!

Some additional comments follow.

(From: Mike Harrison (mike@whitewing.co.uk).)

For the UK in particular, anything which has a declared value below UKP18 (about US$25) as merchandise, or UKP36 ($50) as a gift will not be charged import duty, so putting these values will not cause a problem, and might look more credible. Above this there is duty (typically 17.5% VAT) on the goods value PLUS the postage charge, then another UKP3.75 'handling charge', and the package can be delayed by 1 to 2 weeks."

(Portions from Steve Roberts.)

On a simple unstabilized cheap HeNe laser there are no export controls as far as I know. I have never heard of any regulations on anything that did not have strategic importance, especially if you're only shipping one. Were it a dozen then I would be concerned. Several U.S. HeNe laser manufacturers have sold entire state of the art HeNe production lines to China. Don't loose any sleep over it.

Besides, it's importing things where customs is concerned with lasers. And unless it deals with drugs, murder, or white collar crime, the U.S. is never going to extradite you. :-)

However, for high power diodes lasers or parts of lasers, green YAGs, lasers over a few watts, lasers that can be used as weapons, lasers that stabilize themselves, lasers that can blind pilots, LIDAR, something like research picosecond or Terawatt lasers, and lasers that can be used for semiconductor or uranium processing, one has to be careful. These need approval from the State Department. In addition, shipping to laser or other high tech equipment or parts to certain specific countries will raise red flags with the Government so you will have to do your homework to avoid a serious hassle or worse.

(From: John_LeB (jleb_888@hotmail.com).)

All proscribed technology is covered under the Bureau of Export Administration. The Export Administration Database provides links to the files listing various technologies.

There is a PDF file which you can find that will list proscribed technology. There are links on the web site to regional and national phone numbers where reps will talk with you. You want category 6 - Sensors and Lasers.

I went through all of this to get my crypto software licensed for export and got an exemption on it. So it is relatively easy to navigate once you get to the page and find the PDF files with the info.

To export out of the USA, you would just need either an export license or an exemption. Then in the packaging you would need to put the export license number on the packing list, if I'm not mistaken.