After questioning Lauren about Keith’s other women, and how an adult woman, Lauren chose to stay with him knowing full well he had a harem, and how she actively helped keep Dani confined, Marc Agnifilo turned next to DOS and Lauren’s role in it.

He seems to be trying to show that Lauren was in DOS because she thought it was a good thing and that DOS was a good thing. There are a few pathetic moments where Lauren speaks about her pain at not having a child and where Lauren seems to say more than the what Agnifilo asked her.

This is Part 3 of Lauren’s cross examination- which was halted by the judge.

Part 1: Lauren Salzman: Cross Examination Stopped by Judge: Women of Raniere and Lauren’s Acceptance of Them

Part 2: Lauren Salzman Cross Examination Stopped by Judge: Lauren Asked If She Was an Adult

Marc Agnifilo is cross examining Lauren Salzman.

Keith Created Everything

Q … I want to turn our focus, if I could, to DOS. You said that you were told not to tell the slaves you brought into DOS that Keith created DOS.

A Yes.

Q Fair to say Keith created every part of the NXIVM curriculum, correct?

A Yes, he did.

Q Keith was behind every creative idea in NXIVM; fair to say?

A Yes.

Q It was Keith’s idea, for instance, to create the women’s group, Jness?

A Yes, that’s true.

Q It was Keith’s idea to create a Jness room, correct?

A Yes.

Q Keith created every module? [a module is a two-hour practice sessions in NXIVM]

A Yes.

Q And Keith created them all in different topics.

A Yes…

Q …. Keith created every piece of course work in NXIVM, correct?

A Yes.

Q He created everything. If something had creative content in ESP or NXIVM, Keith created it.

A Yes, that’s true.

Q And there were different sort of companies within NXIVM, correct?

A Yes.

Q Ultima and things like that, did Keith create those as well?

A Yes.

***

Q Was there any precedent within your group for someone to create something that wasn’t Keith?

A No.

***

Q DOS borrowed concepts that were well known in other areas of NXIVM, correct?

A Yes, correct.

Q Readiness was a well-known concept, right?

A Yes…

***

Q And readiness was created by Keith.

A Yes.

Q And everybody knew that.

A Yes.

Q Collateral was a well-known concept in NXIVM, right?

A … yes.

Q Long before DOS was created, … collateral was something that if you took the higher level intensive, you knew about it.

A Yes. It wasn’t used in this way, [as blackmail or highly destructive collateral] but yes.

[Lauren was asked about the Nxivm curriculum]

Purpose of Collateral Was Noble

Q …. we’re not talking DOS here, we’re talking about higher level intensives within NXIVM. How does collateral build one’s conscience?

A Because you care enough to uphold some sort of objective or value — let’s say I want to be a caring person. So, I’m going to collateralize…. for example. If I were to be punishing to you, it wouldn’t be caring. So, if I were to punish you, I may take on some sort of penance.

And that penance could be … trying on how it feels to be you being punished by me so that I can feel what that’s like…. maybe I give up something that I really like. It could be … spending time with somebody in my life that’s really important to me, it could be not watching TV, it could be giving up sugar, but something that’s painful or uncomfortable as a consequence because it’s that important to me that I want to uphold it, that I’d be willing to give something up if I were to fail.

Q And this concept of collateral in the context of higher level intensives was created by Keith.

A It was, yes.

Q How about the concept that strong commitments build character, is that something that was in the NXIVM curriculum?

A It started to be…

***

Q … what role did that concept… [of] strong commitments build one’s own character [play in the basic NXIVM curriculum]?

A That if you make a strong commitment, your ability to uphold that commitment against whatever unknown factors could come up. … at the time you make the commitment, you might not know how difficult it’s going to be to uphold the commitment, but the strongest commitment you’re going to uphold no matter what the adversity is….

Q …. how did that concept change or grow or become different in the context of SOP {Society of Protectors]?

A In SOP, they started talking about … becoming somebody whose word could be depended on. If you have a strong commitment, then I can count on you and you have my back…. in … SOP …. people who have … strong commitment are more reliable and we could count on each other to have each other’s back, but, also, that men have that more than women and women are not reliable or don’t have that strong character commitment.

Q … the concept of strong commitment, all of those were part of … DOS… correct?

A Correct.

***

Keeping Keith Secret in DOS

Q … did anyone else in NXIVM participate in creating concepts like collateral, commitment, other than Keith?

A No, but the way that we spoke about DOS specifically redirected them [slaves and potential slaves] to think that it was other things [other than Raniere’s Nxivm], like bhakti yoga, for example, and [we] brought in practices that we linked to yoga … and other things.… there was a lot of… intentional effort to demonstrate that this was not [solely Keith’s creation]—we borrowed things from many places, we took things from many places, NXIVM being one of them. But there were many others that are outside of NXIVM and that we had just specifically gotten permission from Keith to use [some of his] tools.

But we were using … many tools [in DOS] that have nothing to do with …ESP, including things that are very mystical or nonmeasurable, which was very anti-ESP….

Q ESP was all about measurability?

A Measurability and nonmysticism, yes. So, having this yoga focus, energy focus [in DOS}, shifted the way it was perceived in DOS.

Q And nothing had ever been created, no company, no concept, no major project, by anyone other than Keith?

A That’s true. Not within the NXIVM umbrella.

Q Now, the first-line DOS masters knew that Keith was in the creation of DOS because he created it along with some of them, correct?

A Yes.

***

Q And certain DOS members who were not first-line masters also knew Keith was involved in DOS; isn’t that true?

A Yes, that’s true.

Q And some of your slaves knew that Keith was involved; isn’t that true?

A Came to know.

Q Came to know.

A But I never validated it, but yes.

Q And at least one of your slaves recognized the brand was Keith’s initials.

A That’s true… and [this DOS slave] had a number of problems with it because her father … was a rancher, and she said… this is what we do to the cows… we brand them with our initials and it shows that they are our property. … it became … an issue for her.

Q And the brand itself had looked like a big K, didn’t it?….

A Yes, but it was flipped on its side upside down.

[Agnifilo shows Lauren a picture of the brand of one of the DOS slaves which is turned sideways]

Q … That’s the brand, right?

A On its side, yes.

***

No Sex in Lauren’s Slave Pod

Q Now, you had six slaves, right?

A Yes, I did.

Q Did Keith ever sleep with any of your slaves?

A No, not to my knowledge.

***

Q Did that even come up as a possibility? Did Keith ever mention anything to you about possibly having sexual contact with any of your slaves?

A Only to the effect of saying that if I commanded Sarah [who is married] to have sex with or have children with somebody other than her husband she had to do it….

Q … There was concern about bringing married people into DOS, correct?

A I came to learn that there had been debate over that before I joined.

Q And the concern was that DOS involved this sort of supreme commitment, correct?

A …. I wasn’t part of those discussions. They had them before I came…. to me if you make a life commitment to somebody that you intend to keep, like a husband or spouse or partner, and then you create this supreme commitment that came after [in DOS] and that supreme commitment … involves violating the first commitment [marriage] and we call it [in DOS} “building your word.” That is certainly inconsistent.

Q Keith never said that Sarah had to have sex with anybody other than Nippy, her husband, right?

A Correct.

Q The conversation that you and he had about it was a theoretical conversation, given the fact that she was a married person, right?

A It was a theoretical conversation….

***

Q And to your knowledge, no married person was ever told or asked that they should have sex with someone other than their spouse.

***

A I don’t know of it happening.

***

Q And none of [your slaves] were confronted with a choice or a direction or a suggestion that they should have sex with anyone.

A Correct. But I didn’t come to learn until after I was in the [legal criminal] case that there was a secret sex portion of DOS, which I did come to learn, and I wouldn’t have wanted to support that had I known that that’s what it was, whether they were married or not.

Q We’re going to get to all the stuff that you came to learn. Now, you testified that you used encrypted applications when communicating in DOS?

[Discussion about Mark Vicente and Allison Mack being concerned that someone was hacking or getting material off their computers and Lauren’s concerns about Nxivm being hacked]

***

Readiness Drills Make People Stronger

Q Now, were the readiness drills meant to punish people?

A I don’t believe readiness was designed to punish, no.

Q Readiness wasn’t designed to make people exhausted and weak?

A … no.

Q You wouldn’t want exhausted, weak members, right? That wasn’t the point of DOS, to make them exhausted and weak?

A I don’t think the point was to make them exhausted and weak. I think through the work that.. I … was doing — I mean, with the book work and different things and doing all the other jobs and the things in DOS, I was exhausted a lot of the time.

Q It was a demanding program?

A Yes.

Q Okay. It was meant to make people stronger; correct?

A That was the theory, yes.

Q Right. And readiness was all about preparedness; correct?

A That was my understanding.

Q And being responsive; right?

A Yes.

Q Being part of a well-oiled team that could mobilize quickly on literally a moment’s notice?

A Yes, and about making this the highest priority.

[A number of questions about readiness in SOP]

***

Q And in DOS, you couldn’t go dark [not be available for a time]; right?

A Very rarely… in SOP the people chose to be in readiness, where in DOS you are in a collateralized vow of obedience and put in readiness.

Q Right. And just to be clear, having one’s collateral released in DOS was not hitched to lack of readiness, right? If you weren’t ready, you’d get a penance?

A That’s how we used it.

Q The penances could be a cold shower; right?

A Yes. But I could see how if somebody believed they were in a collateralized vow of obedience for life and weren’t being obedient when they were told to be ready, that they might be afraid of that.

Q Okay, but I’m just going to ask you how you actually used it. I’m not going to ask you anything about what somebody might be afraid for the time being. All right. So, there were readiness problems all the time in DOS; right?

A They were readiness problems, yes, all the time in DOS.

Q Right. Did you ever say to one of your slaves you weren’t ready, I’m releasing your collateral?

A No, I never said that.

Q To your knowledge, did anyone ever say —

A But I did say to them if you guys don’t get your shit together it affects my life and, like, I can be locked in a cage. I said that.

Q Okay. And that is an extreme penance, but it’s not the release of collateral; correct?

A Correct.

Q … Some of the penances were cold showers, right?

A Yes.

Q Might have to go outside when it’s cold?

A Yes.

Q Stand in the snow?

A Yes.

Lauren Volunteers Info on Dungeon

Q Then at some point paddling came into this; right?

A Yes …. Keith spoke about it on many occasions: The most committed people do this [paddling]… having Keith above you [in DOS] saying the most committed people are going to do the dungeon stuff, that affects you in a certain way. And having me above people, when they looked at me as somebody who was most committed and head of not only promotions in ESP, but a high rank and somebody who is respected … they cared about my opinion and that I thought that they were most committed affect their decision to do those things.

Q Can I ask you a question? Did I ask you that? I was going through different collaterals, right. I didn’t ask you anything yet about cages or anything; right? Do you agree with me?

A Not specifically.

Q So why did you just say that?

A Because I believe a lot of mistakes were made and unfortunately I think some of those mistakes were criminal, and I think that’s why we’re here, and I think trying to legitimize that nothing bad happened, it isn’t true that nothing bad happened.

Q Can I get back to asking you the different types [of] penance?

A Yes.

Q So people would do planks; right?

A That was a type [of] penance, yes.

Q You know, you’ve got to go on your arms and keep your body parallel to the ground for a minute or two minutes… ?

A Yes.

Q Now, I want to —

A Paddling.

Q Right. Right.

THE COURT: I’m sorry, I missed that.

THE WITNESS: Paddling.

Q Paddling. We’re going to get to that in a minute. I want to talk about acts of care. You said one of the things that a slave in DOS would do would be acts of care for the master; correct?

A Correct.

Acts of Care

Q Did you have an understanding that part of the purpose of an act of care was to build character in the slave?

A I was told that it was to learn to care.

Q To learn to care for someone other than yourself?

A Yes.

Q And in this case, caring for your master?

A Yes.

Q You said some of the acts of care were — would be sometimes … if you’re going to the grocery store, [to ask your master] do you need anything?

A Sometimes.

Q And things like that?

A Well, and things way beyond that, but yes.

Q Like what else?

A Like Amanda was doing legal research for me. Jimena was creating sales protocols for DOS. Those are much higher level things.

Q Right. And one of the principles was that you should try to do things at the highest level that you can?

A Yes.

Q Right. And I think the analogy you used is you wouldn’t kind of — if you have a lawyer, you wouldn’t have them kind of like sweeping the street?

A Correct.

***

Q … part of the reason for doing these things is to teach the person doing them to care for someone other than themselves?

A Yes.

DOS: Something Noble for Women Everywhere

Q Now, you said that Keith wanted to recruit for DOS outside of NXIVM?

A He did.

Q He didn’t just want NXIVM people in DOS; he wanted other people in DOS as well?

A That’s correct.

Q And he didn’t want DOS to be just another division within the NXIVM…?

A … he wanted people outside of NXIVM.

Q All right. … Keith wanted powerful and influential women in DOS?

A Yes.

***

Q … he wanted people who were in DOS who could make DOS an influential force and grow?

A Yes.

Q And he wanted DOS to be possibly something that influenced policy one day?

A Yes, I believe that. He said that.

Q And he said he wanted DOS to be something that might even play a role in elections; right?

A Yes.

***

Q That DOS was going to be possibly thousands or hundreds of thousands of people one day….

A Yes, that he wanted it to be that big.

***

Q And this was going to all be women, correct? The people that were recruiting into DOS were all women?

A Yes.

Q So fair to say he wanted this to be a powerful, influential group of women for women; correct?

A I do think he wanted a powerful union of influential women. There was a lot of theory of women for women.

***

Q And he talked about it being a group that could kind of champion women’s rights; correct?

A Theoretically, but a lot of it came after it was exposed.

Q And but even before it was exposed, he was talking about DOS possibly one day having political influences?

A Yes.

***

Q And at the time you believed in all this; right?

A Yes.

Q I mean, I understand — we’re going to talk about that there was a change in perspective, but back in 2017, 2018, you believed this was a good thing?

A … yes.

Q Okay. You believed you could be involved in building something wonderful and important?

A That’s why I did it, because I wanted to do something that was good and important.

Q Right.

A And I wanted to grow.

Q So you could do both things at the same time; right?

A Yes.

Q Grow as Lauren Salzman, right, through DOS?

A Yes.

***

You chose very capable people [as slaves]; right?

A Yes.

Q And when you chose them, you chose them to help you, to help them and to help DOS; correct?

A Yes.

Branding Pain is Love

[Discussion about her close friend Rosa Laura Junco persuading her to join DOS and be branded]

Q And she said to you that the branding was a way to symbolize overcoming pain for principle; right?

A Yes.

Q Now, was that a concept that had particular meaning for you?

A Yes, it was.

Q Tell the jury why that is.

A … There was a specific curriculum called human pain, which is all about taking on pain, and we know the depth of our love through the pain that we take on, and I believed in that… I really believed that in order to teach that and to be non-hypocritical and integrity with myself and the position that I was in that I had to live those principles, that I couldn’t teach principles that I wasn’t living.

Lauren’s Pain Over Not Having Child

[Lauren continues]

And in my life — and my life with Keith up until that point, there were many things that were difficult for me that I did on an ongoing basis, including the pictures [that Agnifilo previously showed her with other Nxivm members] that you put up where I’m appearing very happy and getting myself happy, but in situations that were very counter to what I wanted for myself in my life… if I went and spent time with Keith and Marianna and their child and was happy there even though I was without that [having her own child which Raniere had promised her] in my own life and I could watch that from the outside, the amount of pain that I felt over that, or hurt, or disappointment, or whatever, would help me become stronger, because I was willing to just uphold the principle of love for the sake of love and not because of anything beyond that. And even part of my joining DOS was to prove that I was somebody who was willing to do whatever it took to uphold these principles and that all of the things that I had traded for all of the things that I had been promised was worth it somehow and I got in over my head honestly.

Lauren’s Devotion to Keith

Q Okay. And you wanted to be branded; correct?

A I wouldn’t say I wanted to be branded per se, but I … wanted to do what it took to be part of this group and to prove to Keith that I was the kind of person who was committed to growth and committed to him, and if branding is what it took, then I wanted to do that.

Q Rosa Laura told you that you’d be a slave along with others and that the slaves share everything?

A Yes.

Q And that’s an idea that appealed to you at the time; correct?

A It was an idea that appealed to me at the time and at the time also Keith had told me that the idea was that I would always be part of this group [of seven first line slaves]…

And when I got into the group and Rosa Laura was [saying] ‘this is amazing, you’re going to love this, it’s going to be great,’ all of a sudden I started realizing very real problems that all of them were having with the group and with the things going on in the group. So they enrolled me, telling me something that was great, that they were all going to share and it was going to be wonderful, but that wasn’t what they were experiencing and I think there was good reason also for them to suspect that I would have problems as well and that wasn’t discussed ahead of time.

Q So at one point you had a conversation with Allison Mack… [that you] had some concerns about DOS… Allison was kind of really positive on DOS and so you had a conversation?

Deceived Because Monkey was Pregnant

A When I found out that Marianna was pregnant, I called Allison and said… “I need you to remind me why I’m doing this, because basically I’m not okay with what just happened” [Keith having a baby with someone else after he had been promising Lauren for years that he would have one with her]… I was enrolled in a collateralized vow and then afterwards told Monkey [Mariana] was pregnant when that was something that had been known for months and I thought it was wrong.

Q Right. So the reason you called Allison is because you found out Marianna, Monkey, was pregnant?

A … not because I found out Monkey was pregnant, [but] because Keith invited me to DOS under the belief that he wanted to bring our relationship closer, which he knew to me didn’t mean just knowing the secrets of who else he’s having relationships with, or the sorority and that – [but he] didn’t share with me …. that Marianna was pregnant, so [he] got me to agree to stay in a collateralized life vow forever under the auspice of growth and building my word and then dropped the bomb about Marianna. And, so, it wasn’t just that Marianna was pregnant; it called into question who Keith was to me.

Keith Planned to Release Collateral

Q Understood. Did you think Keith in a million years would release that the collateral to hurt you?

A I think that Keith would do what Keith thinks is right or ethical according to Keith…. if he thought the ethical thing to do was to release the collateral, he would do it…. when people left, he discussed whether we should release collateral and we decided … not to [because] … it would look bad to release it because it would validate the allegations that were being made. … if the circumstances were different and those allegations weren’t made, he might have released it. He was talking about building a craft of people who learned specifically how to release it [collateral] and the ways to do that and the ways to make it look like we don’t know where it came from.

Q No collateral was ever released, not one time, not one piece?

A Correct.

Q Ever?

A Correct.

Q All the people that left DOS, not a single piece of collateral was ever released; correct?

A Correct, but as far as I know only one person left DOS before it everything became public.

Q Yes. And that person left before May 17th, before everything became public; right?

A Correct.

Q And that person’s collateral wasn’t released?

A Correct.

[Stay tuned for Part 4]

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