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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 421, uh, with my guest, Amy G. Yes, I do have a cold. I'm Paul Gilmartin; this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunctions, to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It’s not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site, uh, for this podcast is mentalpod.com. Mentalpod is also the social media handle you can, uh, you can find me or the show at.

[00:00:44] Got some interesting surveys. Somebody on the, on a, um, survey had suggested we have more tips, um, to help people. And, there's a survey that we have … among others called, "What Has Helped You." So, I'm gonna be reading from some of those today, mixed in with, uh, the, the usual suspects: shame and secrets and stuff like that. And if you’ve never taken our surveys, they're completely anonymous, and they're a really big part of the show, um, and really helps us understand how universal our internal worlds are, um, even if the details of things … that are circumstantial in our life. It's, it’s the feelings about them, and the way we view ourself, others, the world.

[00:01:43] This is from the what has helped you survey. And this is filled out by a woman who calls herself, um, "If You Can't Make Your Own, Store-Bought Is Fine (laughs)." And, uh, she writes—and I think every survey from, uh, almost every survey from, for today was, I think, filled out by … women. Dudes, get off your asses! Fill out some surveys. Her struggles are ADHD, depression, and anxiety. She writes, "I was a victim of covert incest and emotional abuse from my mother. I also sometimes have problems being codependent." What's helped? "The ADHD and depression are soothed with medication. I'm trying to get a therapist, and while my attempts have not been successful as of yet, I'm still hopeful and determined. Having emotions and being able to smile is not something I wanna give up again." Yeah, that, that's, uh, I, I always say to people who will not even consider taking meds, uh, what are the side effects of not treating your depression or your anxiety? And not that I'm pro-meds. Just for some people, myself included, I, I happen to need them, in addition to 8,000 other things. What have people said or done that has helped you? "When I was at my lowest, laying on my bed and repeating over and over again, 'I just want to die,' my girlfriend broke down into tears. She was crying very heavily. So when I asked what was the matter, she said to me, 'I just want you to have good days again.' Hearing her say that with all the pain in her voice prompted me to actually get off my ass and work towards getting help. My wonderful girlfriend has been with me for five years now, and she learned how to flow with my problems. She can keep me on task, she doesn’t let me stay in bed all day, and she knows how to handle my meltdowns. It's not a perfect relationship, by any means, and we still fight like anyone else, but we love each other deeply." Thank you for sharing that. It's, it's impossible, I think, to battle the issues that we talk about on this podcast without support.

[00:04:08] This is also a what has helped you survey. And this was filled out by a gender-fluid person who refers to themselves as "Slytherin." And they write about their issues, uh, "I've been clinically depressed for about 15 years—I'm almost 26—and have suffered from generalized anxiety disorder for the same amount of time. I struggle with alcohol addictions, self-harm, and have had disordered eating on and off also for the same amount of time. I am also codependent and have severe social anxiety." What has helped you? "Therapy, especially during high school with competent therapists. I've had so many bad therapist, but the few good ones give me hope that every time I search for a new one. Also, I think just getting older and navigating how to live in the world and growing up has calmed down a lot of my maladaptive behaviors, like cutting, burning, restrictive eating, panic attacks, etcetera. Also, realizing that I am a person worthy of unconditional love and healthy affection has done wonders for my self-esteem." YES! YES! YES! That we don’t need to be anything or do anything to be worthy of unconditional love. That doesn’t mean that we're not taking responsibility for our actions and our relationships. But, thank you for, thank you for sharing that.

[00:05:38] This is … another of the same surveys. And this was filled out by (laughs) … she calls herself, "My Stalker's Favorite Person." Ah, you guys are the fucking best. You are, the best! Her issues are, um, she works in a … she writes, uh, "I'm in a competitive field filled with hyper-intelligent, yet strange, judgmental people. My colleagues often make me feel inadequate as a human if my work isn't top-notch and I don’t sound brilliant 24/7." How could that be pressuring? (Laughs) How could you not relax in that environment? That sounds like vacation. I'm surprised that you're not working on the beach, cuz your job (laughs) sounds so relaxing. And her … her personal like, um, is, is not where she wants it to be. She writes, "What the fuck is the measure of a person's worth in this universe? If I'm supposed to stop caring what other people think of me, how do I keep myself from becoming one of those people whose oblivious to how much they suck? And don’t even get me started on my physical appearance or god or whatever." (Pauses) I think … obsessing about where … what parts of us might suck is not a healthy way to go about trying to grow, because it's kind of shame-based and it's fear-based. I think learning how to identify people as safe and capable of intimacy, forming relationships with them. Learning from that. Testing the waters, feeling safety. Getting a sense of trust renewed in our lives. The positive feelings about ourselves will naturally, slowly come. But … scanning ourselves like we're full of malignancies, is, to me, is kind of operating on the premise of, there's something wrong with me; I gotta find out what it is. And that's not to say—If we're having issues, you know, if we're shoplifting or, or having to drink ourselves to sleep every night, that's something that definitely should be addressed. But not from a place of shame and fear. Rather, from a place of, I need some support and I'm gonna find it because I'm worth it. And I'm gonna get out of my comfort zone, because life is too short to be miserable. That attitude has worked for me. Because for so much of my life, I just kelped, kept my shame and my self-hatred secret. And it kept me self-obsessed and disconnected from other people. So that's my, that's my two cents. What has helped her? "I think I'm filling out this survey because I'm actually at a loss when I read this question. I don't know how to deal with things. I don’t know where to turn when life gets hard. It feels like nothing is sacred and I can't success at any one aspect of living. Everyone and everything lets me down and gives me anxiety in some way or another. I can't find true comfort anywhere." Thank you for sharing that. And you are definitely not alone in, in feeling that.

[00:09:30] This is an email I got from, uh, a guy named "Alain Moreau." And he writes, "Hello. Am Alain Moreau, 80 years old from France. Am a philanthropist, French businessman, and chairman of Institute Moreau. I apologize for the manner of my contact." I appreciate that, because it was a bit jarring. "I got your email from the Google." (Sighs) I tell ya, I have had it up to my top hat with the Google. Every time that I think that the Google is done with its shenanigans, the Google has another trick up its sleeve! "I will like to offer you a deal that we both can benefit and more information regarding it will be provided to you, if you click for respond." And then it has his picture, and it says "Regards, Alain Moreau." And he looks like Hitchcock on a bad day. And then underneath it, writes, he writes, "My mission: The Alain Moreau Foundation aims to give children and youngsters with disabilities in developing countries access to medical and social rehabilitation." First of all, I wanna congratulate you from going to butchering to mastering English in a single email. BUT, I do have a problem with your foundation because it says you aim to give children and youngsters. I’m a fan of children, but I am NOT a fan of youngsters. I think we all know that youngsters are children who have gang affiliations. If you’ve ever taken the time to stop one of them, with their little leather jacket and their tiny little switchblades, you'll see that they are n'er-do-wells. If you don’t see them, go by a viaduct. You'll see 'em splashing in the puddle, showing each other what they pickpocketed. So I … I send you to hell, Alain Moreau. I cast you to hell on the bullet train.

[00:11:52] I wanna tell you about our sponsor BlueChew. I'm gonna be completely honest with you: I, in my past—and I wouldn’t say that it's over with—have dealt with performance anxiety. And I will occasionally take, uh, a med for ED. And bluechew.com bring you the first chewable with the same FDA-approved active ingredients as Veag-, Veagra (laughs)?! That's the (laughs), that's the version of an ED med that, uh, take winter vacations in the Alps (laughs). Veagra. It has the same FDA-approved active ingredients as Viagra and Cialis. You can take them anytime, day or night. Since they're chewable, they work up to twice as fast as a pill. So you can be ready whenever an opportunity arises. I like the choice of word. And it's not just for guys with dysfunction. It's for any guy who wants to enhance performance in the bedroom. It's prescribed online and ships straight to your door in a discreet package. No in-person doctor's visit. No waiting in the pharmacy. And best of all, no more awkwardness. BlueChew is made in the USA, and since it ships direct, it's cheaper than a pharmacy. So, visit bluechew.com and get your first shipment free when you use our special promo code "mental" and you pay just five dollars for shipping. That's b-l-u-e-chew.com and use promo code "mental" to try it for free. BlueChew: the better, cheaper, faster choice.

[00:13:30] All right. One more, uh, actually, we have two more surveys before the, uh, before the interview. Don’t you, don’t you DARE get impatient on me! This is from the what has helped you survey, and this is filled out by, uh, a trans woman who identifies as "Big Kid." And she writes, "I am diagnosed as bipolar, PTSD, and borderline personality disorder (oh, what fun). What I actually struggle with is self-harm, drinking, angry mostly at myself, keeping friends, and toughest one is finding the will to keep fighting." What's helped you deal with them? "Well, the negative ones—cutting, drinking, overdosing, being a bathroom boy (someone who gives free BJs to strangers), and starving myself to punish me. Now, the positive ones. Grounding skills, staying in the moment, going to a meeting like AA, therapy, and such. Other coping skills are going on hikes and nature, listening to music, praying, meditation, and taking my goddamn medicine, even when I don’t wanna." (Laughs) What, if anything, have people said or done that has helped you? "My case manager just talks to me and lets me know her pain. It makes me feel not alone. My grandmother, just by reminding me I'm loved." That's so beautiful. Thank you for that. You sound like a really, really sweet, uh, sweet soul. Any comments to make the podcast better? "My biggest request would be, while you express your symptoms, it would be nice to know your diagnoses. So my suggestion, or request, would be, you could, during each show, make a point to lay that out, please and thank you." Well, I'm just gonna lay it out here. And, for the, for the new listener, uh, my psychist, my psychiatrist (laughs) describes what I have as treatment-resistant depression due to childhood adversity. I am a, uh, covert incest survivor. The abuser was my mom, who's also molested by an older neighborhood boy. I've had some medical traumas. I've had 13 operations. I deal with anxiety, uh depression, as previously mentioned. Multiple addictions, alcoholism—been sober for 15 years. Fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy. Fear that I don’t do enough. Struggling in learning how to set and respect boundaries—getting much better at it. History of objectifying women. Being a know-it-all. Isolating. Needing sugar to fall asleep. Future-tripping and catastrophizing. And I go to two support groups, uh, a week. I, uh, occasionally see a sex therapist. And I see a psychiatrist, and I do talk therapy with, um, my betterhelp.com therapist.

[00:16:40] And yes, this is a, a lead-in to a plug for our fabulous sponsor, betterhelp.com. If you have never tried online counseling, I highly recommend you check it out. I love not having to leave my house. And, uh, my counselor's awesome. Her name's Donna, and she's compassionate and wise, and she's really helped me. So, uh, if you wanna check it out, go to betterhelp.com/mental. Make sure you include the "/mental" so they know that you came from this podcast. Just fill out a questionnaire, and then they’ll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor. And you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:17:22] All right. And this is the last survey before the, uh, interview with Amy. And this is a shame and secret survey. And this was filled out by a woman who calls herself, "Runner 51." She's straight, in her 50s, was raised in a stable and safe environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts. I have flashes of things from when I was young, but have not gone got that far in therapy yet." She's been emotionally abused. "My mother always told me I was stupid and that I would have to use my looks or sex to get a man. She never had a kind word. She never came to any school event, even when I was in tennis championships and got to first place. To this day, I feel like anything I do is never enough. I am now a social cripple." Your mom sounds like a terrific lady. Any positive experiences? "Sometimes, when she was mad—" uh, with the, uh, abuser. "Sometimes, when she was mad at my father, she would take me out and we would have fun. Shop, go out to eat. It was so weird, like she was a different person." What a mind fuck, you know. You wanna fuck your kids up? Only praise them when they please you and then buy them shit. Darkest thoughts: "I wish her dead, but I want to be able to talk to her before she dies so I can tell her what an evil bitch she is. I would love for her to need my blood or kidney, so I could tell her no." Darkest secrets: "I have stolen money, and this comes from my earliest memory of my mother looking over at me, putting her finger to her lips, telling me to be quiet, as she goes into my father's bedroom and steals money out of his wallet. I remember us going to the store, and I stole a candy bar, thinking it was a game and she would love me for doing this. We got home and I show her the candy bar. She whips me and take me back to the store to give back the candy. For the longest time, I stole money and things from stores and places I worked. Thankfully, I never got caught, and it's been over 30 years since I have taken anything, but I know it comes from her." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Rape fantasies. Sharing that makes me feel scared." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone that you haven’t been able to? "I would to tell my mother that I am happy now and with someone who loved and cares about me. To let her know she didn’t break me." What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish to be free of the anxiety and the social phobia." Have you shared these things with others? "Yes, I have a therapist, and my partner is very supportive." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I feel better." And then this I love, and I think this could apply to every single one of us. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Never give up trying to heal yourself."

Intro

[00:21:21] Paul: I'm here with Amy G., who I heard speak at one of our support group meetings. And I thought you'd be a great guest, and I'd love to have you share your story with, uh, with, uh, listeners. What are some topics that you … would like to, to touch on?

Amy: So—First of all, thank you so much for having me. I think things that have been really crucial in my own personal growth have been, uh, addressing trauma, um, working on … issues that … (sighs) are so deeply ingrained that it's almost, it, it, it’s been a really windy road for me—

Paul: And you're how old?

Amy: I'm 25.

Paul: Okay.

Amy: Yeah. Very, very grateful that I found such an amazing community at a young age. I know a lot of people struggle to find their, their home and their community, um, until later in life. But I'm—That, to me, is another thing. Community has been—Multiple communities that I'm a part of that have been … so—

Paul: Different support groups.

Amy: Absolutely. Different support groups. But … in addition to that, like I, I'm part of like this dance community and other communities, um, an acting class that I go to that have been so, um … (sighs) I, I just think it's so important to connect with people in a very genuine way where I feel safe and they feel safe, and it's, it's loving. And I feel recharged after I, I see them. Actually, was just getting lunch with a friend, and I was like, "This is amaz—" I mean, because when I was younger, you know, like … going back to college and high school, it was like, I would have friends when I would see them and I would feel so drained afterwards (both laugh). And now, it's … I don’t, I don’t have friendships like that anymore. I feel like the people I surround myself with really build me up. And, and that's been so special to me.

Paul: And is it safe to say that the vulnerability and boundaries that have kind of, uh, been established with them allows for that, kind of recharging?

Amy: Absolutely! Absolutely. Vulnerability is, is huge in my life in, in all my relationships because, um, it, it's messy, you know. (Laughs) It takes—

Paul: It's so messy.

Amy: (Laughs) Yeah. And, and I think, with any relationship, there's gonna be conflict, whether it's a, a, a partnership, a, a friendship, um, a parent, uh, child relationship. There's conflict; that's part of it. And so, (sighs) sometimes, you know, (laughs) I, I tell people, it's like I, I … I struggle to even keep myself together. Like I'm my own person with my own beliefs and, and fears and desires and all this stuff. And then, adding another person (laughs) into that mix, their beliefs and their fears and their desires and, and just like mixing that together can get really messy and complicated (laughs).

Paul: It's like you're diffusing a bomb and somebody comes to help you, and they have a bomb.

Amy: (Laughs) And you're like—

Paul: And the white wires get crossed (both laugh)—

Amy: Absolutely!

Paul:—and you're like, "Oh, fuck! Is that my red wire, or is that your red wire?" (Both laugh)

Amy: Absolutely.

Paul: So if, if it's okay with you, um, just tell your story.

Amy: Yeah, sure—

Paul: Kind of, uh, if you, if you can remember what you talked about when I, when I heard you speak. And, um, kind of any questions, I’ll just, uh—

Amy: Sure. So, um, I, I'll start by saying I heard, uh, another support group that I'm a part of, I heard someone who was sharing. And she, she spoke about, um, she spoke about how she could tell her story, right, and say, "These are the events in my life, and this happened, this happened, and this happened." And maybe she could like make some jokes about it or whatever. But, that didn’t serve her. And what was really important was to tell her story with emotion and feeling and to be present with it. And so, I'm still working on that. You know, it's still, there's a part of me that wants to create distance from the more troublesome experiences. But I'm gonna do my best to stay present and vulnerable and grounded. So, I was born into a pretty, you know, I guess average American family. I mean, they're, we're by no means like really well-off. You know, it's a pretty middle, borderline working class. And, I just … My … Both my parents came from a lot of trauma. And it's, it's hard to even talk about, cuz I, it’s not, it's not really my … stuff to discuss. Like I don’t feel comfortable saying, "Well, here's what happened in my mom's like. And like, her, you know, here's what happened in my dad's life," because that's their story. But it did affect me. But I'll leave it at that: they both had a lot of trauma and were just doing the best they could. But, um, my mom … got into, you know, pretty abusive relationships, um, whether it was physical, verbal, emotional, whatever it was. And, um, I, my parents, my biological parents split up when I was two. And my dad, um … you know, I don’t, it's hard to say. I don’t know a lot … The story I know is from my mom's perspective and her lens, so I don’t know a lot of, um, what the real truth of it was. All I knew was that I grew up without a, my real father, without knowing him, knowing who he was. And so, immediately like, from age two onward, I, I didn’t understand. I felt abandoned. I felt confused, like it was never really, I mean, I—

Paul: There was never a clear explanation of why dad wasn't there—

Amy: Yeah, you know. Yeah. And it, I remember my mom telling me very … specifically, she wou-, anytime I would ask her, she would always, um, really make it a point to say, "Well, you know, he loved you. Like he loved you, but …"

Paul: As much as a no good motherfucker can love a two-year-old (both laugh). I have no idea; I don’t know what you're (laughs)—

Amy: (Laughs) No, but it's like—Yeah. It's like, he, she always said, "He loved you, but, you know," and, and it really, I didn’t have a lot of explanation other than that he, he had a lot of issues. That's kind of what she said, and you know he just had issues. And she didn’t have the language, really, to explain, you know. She, she was just trying to get by and support us. And, and then I had, um, she immediately went from that relationship into another, um, pretty abusive relationship with, um, someone who's my sister's father, is my stepdad. And, you know, he was … it, it's so challenging to talk about because I'm like, "Well, he—" like … no one's just one thing, you know. And so I wanna sit, sit here and say like, oh, he was like a raging alcoholic (laughs), which is, in, in my mind, that was my experience of him, you know. My sister's mind, he was eve-, he was amazing. He was everything, you know. And he also was a very charismatic, um, loving person in the best way he knew how. But, um, I experienced a lot of trauma from him. And so … that dynamic of feel-, like not knowing who my real dad is, not, um, not having a good relationship with my stepdad and, and desperately, desperately wanting love, I think, as all children do, um, really … led to me feeling neglected, abandoned, um abused, but I didn’t understand, you know …

Paul: Di you think it was normal?

Amy: I, of course! Of course. Yeah. I, I li-, like, "Yeah, I had a happy childhood." And I would tell people that for like a long time. And now I'm like, "It's a little more complicated than that (laughs)."

Paul: Isn't it funny? I think most of the people in our support group are that way. And I think it's also why we couldn’t get a handle on why we were so afraid to let people get close to us. Can you give some snapshots of what the abuse looked like and felt like?

Amy: Yeah, yeah. So, it was really like, um … for, as a child, I felt a lot of confusion, a lot of, I got a lot of mixed messages. And, and my brain formulated things that were just not true (laughs), you know. But—

Paul: For example?

Amy: Like, it was safe. The, the best way to keep myself safe was like, don’t be seen, don’t be heard; just fly as under the radar as possible, you know, because it, I never knew, with my stepdad in particular, it was kind of like I had this feeling of always walking on eggshells. I never knew if I was gonna get someone who was like nice and funny and made me laugh, someone who was gonna just yell at me and, and rage at me. And it was … absolutely terrifying.

Paul: Would your mom ever intercede, or …

Amy: You know, she did. And I actually have memories, a lot of memories of, of them arguing over me, which, you know, I—god bless her for trying. But that made me feel worse as a kid. I was like, "NO!" like, you know—

Paul: Cuz they both agreed you were an awful child. (Both laugh)

Amy: Yeah, no, they would—

Paul: The only thing they could come together around—

Amy: (Laughs) That's it (laughs).

Paul: "Look, we both hate her. Can we start there?" (Laughs)

Amy: Yeah, you know, they, um, they just would argue about what was the best way to raise me. And I think my stepdad was really trying to be a father to me, which, um, but couldn’t bridge that gap—You know, he wasn’t my dad—

Paul: Yeah, when you're an untreated alcoholic, it, it's, um, you know—The, the turn of the 20th century, the, you know, before there were support groups for alcoholism and drug addiction, the three things that doctors could agree upon, doctors who worked closely with, uh, alcoholics and drug addicts, was that they, um, the commonalities is they, um, are hypersensitive to criticism, they are emotionally immature, and they are self-centered … in the absence of any kind of recovery.

Amy: YEAH!

Paul: And so, it, you throw stress on top of that, having kids—

Amy: (Laughs) Absolutely!

Paul:—and it's gonna be like a 12-year-old, how—

Amy: Yeah, it really is. And so, it was really like—And I, you know, I say these things, I can only imagine what they're childhood was like, you know. It was probably worse, you know. But I, I, my experience was like, I remember a lot, feeling very alone in my childhood, um, even though I had siblings. Even though my parents were home, they were just in their room with the door locked or hanging out in the garage, you know, and drinking and smoking and, and … That was like a pretty much a daily occurrence. And, and I fe-, you know, my entertainment was like, okay, watch TV, you know, and kind of just zone out for hours and hours at a time, which I felt was (laughs), looking back now, I'm like that was also extremely detrimental. I was just trying to survive. But like the messages I got from the media were like (laughs) not that great either, you know. And so, just trying to sort out what, um … what, what do I actually believe in? What does Amy actually, um, stand for and care about, versus, you know, what I was socialize to care about? And I think that a lot of what I, I, I shared about, um … is that I was really taught, kind of I got the message from like movies and television that like, first and foremost, like prettiness is important. Like that, as a woman, as a girl, like that's you're first job, is to be attractive, you know. And I learned that that was a way to get attention from, particularly from guys, from men, that, um … I wasn’t getting any attention I my home. And so, it was like, I mean, we never like, I remember like, one of the … I can give an example. Like, I remember as a kid, just desperately wanting, because I had this fantasy of like TV life, where everyone sits around the dinner table and has dinner and like, "Oh, how was your day, Johnny?" "It was good!" You know, like (laughs). And, I, I wanted that so desperately. And we never, ever had that. It was like, my mom was like, doing, like multitasking: she was cooking dinner, she was doing other things and cleaning. She would like eat over the sink and, you know, my sister and I would sit and have dinner. And then, I didn’t know where my stepdad was. I just, it was chaos. And, um, and no one, you know, it was, there was like the, "Hey, how was your day?" But, you know, it was, "Good—"

Paul: Half-interested.

Amy: Yeah. Not really, no one was really present.

Paul: And kids know when, when a, a parent is invested in them and when they’re kind of going through the motions.

Amy: Absolutely. And so, when I started to realize, "Oh, I can get attention from other people who—" Not only could I get attention, it was almost transactional. It was like, being cute, being a cute little kid, being, whatever, you know, pretty, conventionally attractive was like, "Oh, the nice man gave me, at the store, gave me like a lollipop for free." Like, oh, cu, you know—

Paul: And smiled.

Amy:—and I just, I learned how to, yeah. I learned how to work it and work that. And that became, um—

Paul: So charm became a tool.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it, looking back, I'm like, wow, it was … I was just trying to survive and get this attention that I desperately, I desperately just wanted to be seen and heard. And, um, but it’s also … it's so danger—I was interacting with total strangers, you know. People I, I didn't know, people that were older than me. Like just, you know, and trying to get any sort of attention that I could get from, from someone else.

Paul: And in that … we lose our sense of self.

Amy: Absolutely.

Paul: Did you ever have … thoughts kind of bubbling up, like, "This doesn’t feel like I'm really being me? Why am I putting on this, you know, thing to impress this person or get them to like me?" Or were you just unconscious … about it?

Amy: That, that's a great question. You know, I, I was really just in it. Like I didn’t see it until—Like I, I truly did not see it 'til a couple years ago, until like my early 20s. And, um … started to look at the patterns of my life and be like, "WHOA! Something's going on here." But when I was in it, I just … no idea. Just completely oblivious. Just thought I was just living my life, and thought that that's what everyone did. And, you know, just … I mean, I knew I was … obsessed. I knew I was, I always thought of myself as like being boy crazy, like "Oh!" And I always had crushes on people. And, um … But I thought that was normal. And, I didn't see that as a, um, an aspect of attention-seeking, you know. And I didn't see that as a result of trauma. Cuz I thought my childhood was fine and happy (laughs).

Paul: So the, the trauma was mostly verbal abuse?

Amy: Yeah. It was a lot like, something, um—When you're asking about examples earlier, I thought of … Something that used to happen a lot is like … And it, again, it was like I experienced so much confusion and just … pain as a child, in that like I remember my stepdad used to like … It was like he … Anything could set him off, right? So he would get mad, you know, over literally—I had like spilled my milk on the table, which kids do, you know. Kids, that, that happens. You're a, a child, and he would just … get SO angry. It was like having this like hairpin trigger, you know. So I tried really hard to be perfect. But that was my response, was like, "Okay, don't do anything (laughs)—"

Paul: How could that backfire? How could that not work out in the long run?

Amy: (Laughs) I KNOW! A perfect plan (laughs). But yeah, I tried really hard to just, um—I mean, that was really my only option, was like, "Don't set him off. Don’t make him angry."

Paul: Become who people need you to be to survive.

Amy: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Paul: Don’t listen to your gut. Just look at other people's reactions, judge their moods, and adapt as needed.

Amy: Absolutely! I learned how to like read the room and just read people and, and really navigate like … feeling … like this, um, hypervigilance, super, was a big part of my story. Just like very sensitive to other people's emotions and, um, energies. Even, you know, and it's, yeah, definitely have PTSD from that, you know, loud noises, things—I just, cuz he would like yell. Like it … And he had this loud, of course, loud, deep resonant voice that would just terrify me. And often, I didn’t know—I remember … in particu-, one time in particular, like he—not even one time, this happened multiple times—but he used to get mad about thing where like he would be lecturing me about something that I did wrong and why it was wrong and whatever, whatever. And I, he would say that I had this look in my, like I was rolling my eyes at him or something. And as I kid, I truly did not, I … I was just like a deer in the headlights, you know. But even just that idea, that a ki-, like … me just looking at him the wrong way would … make him angry. And so, it's like what do you do as a child, you know? It was a really … terrifying, polarizing, um, way to be, in that I just felt like, anything I can do can, will be attacked at any moment without warning. And, um, and yeah, all I can do is really try to control everything in my life. And so, yeah. It was really, um, really hard. And that like, I would say that's … one of my like, definitely big "T"—my therapist calls 'em big "T" traumas and like little "T" traumas (laughs). And like definitely big "T" trauma there. Definitely, you know, not knowing my biological father, another big "t" trauma. But … it's like, on top of that, there's a lifetime of, of trauma that I experienced, um, at school, on the playground, you know. Just what, like … everyday little things. And that's been really important for me. And what I've been kind of focusing on lately is that, um, I'm trying to reframe trauma, in that like … it's not just this intense … Like I have the intense experiences, but it's also little things that don’t get resolved when I'm young. And, and, a part of me … um, gets stunted, in that whatever age I am in that trauma, a part of me like gets stuck, and is trying to navigate the world from this belief that like, "Oh, you know, I'm, I'm not good enough," or, "Oh, I have to be this certain way." And it's really, um … really … um, what's the word … challenging … really hard to, to move forward or make progress in life, when you have that much trauma, which …

Paul: Negative self-beliefs feel so much like reality.

Amy: Absolutely. And it's like, um … I, even if people don’t relate to my story, like I'm now in a place where I feel comfortable saying like everybody has trauma. Everybody. Like we all … And so, we're all trying to navigate this world. And I think that’s why we're in so much chaos right now, is because, like on a global level, like everyone's just like, you know …

Paul: Scared.

Amy: Yes! Scared, and have these coping mechanisms and the defense mechanisms, um, that we're pres-, like presenting out in the world. And … and it's just, it's just … so complicated and so complex, but so toxic, you know.

Paul: Yeah. You talked about being boy crazy as a little girl. If, if you can, articulate the difference between what a kid who is infatuated with someone of the opposite sex would be like versus … the boy crazy, like you were.

Amy: Well (sighs), so … I, I imagine—It's hard to say cuz I don’t (laughs) have that experience of, of normalcy around the opposite sex. And that's something I, um—

Paul: Then just share your—

Amy: Sure.

Paul:—your, uh, some of the highlights of your being lost in fantasy or whatever it was.

Amy: Yeah. Well, like I remember, I mean, honestly, my experience of, of male—and I was always either attracted to someone or in total terror of them, like afraid. So like with men, I only have this like, I had two, two buttons that I could press. It's like, "Okay, I'm attracted to. I'm gonna flirt with you," or "I'm afraid of you. Don't, don’t get near me, like stay away—"

Paul: And that was males of all ages?

Amy: Every, yeah, all ages—

Paul: Wow!

Amy: Like I always thought, so I was seeing everything from that lens, and I always thought like … yeah, I never felt really safe around men. And, um—

Paul: Was it fear of them yelling at you, hitting you?

Amy: It was just, it was everything. It was that, and it was also fear of like, "Oh my god, this person's like creepy. They're real attracted to me," you know. I just always felt, like, um, pe-, uh, like prey. Like pe-, like men were like pre-, I saw them as predators, you know. And, um—

Paul: And was that base in an experience or you just re-, reading them?

Amy: I think, you know, maybe a little bit of both. But I also think it, I think, unfortunately, we've socialized girls to kind of, um, see the world in that way. And … out of, kind of necessity (laughs), because it is, like I, I don’t blame my mom for telling me, you know, like, don’t walk down alleys at, you know. And always, whatever, have pepper spray on your keychain, whatever, you know. Cuz that, um, she was just trying to protect me. But she also taught me that, you know, her and my friends, like every-, all we, I think … In human interaction, we socialize each other. I definitely learned that the world was scary and I couldn’t trust people, you know. I had to have my guard up. And, and that was from, honestly, like walking home from school, in high school, and getting like whistled at by someone driving by. And you, there is—I know, for me, as a woman, and I, I'm sure, I know, I have a lot of friends who can identify with, there was never a feeling of, you know, I'm totally safe in the world. It's always like someone could come and overpower me at any moment. And, um, and I have to be vigilant about it, hypervigilant. And I think that … is really toxic in so many ways. But, in a big way … what I've discovered in my, my adult, my early adulthood is like, oh, that image that I had, that story about what, um, abuse looks like, what, um, assault looks like and sexual assault and all of it, has really kept me from seeing, um … how … I think there's this this normalization of, of like rape culture. And just … I feel like I'm getting off track, but, um (laughs), I'm trying to say that like, because I was so focused on this, um, stereotype of like, oh my god, someone, there's this bad, there could be a bad person around the corner hiding in the bushes with a knife, and they're gonna like … hold me down and like force themselves on me, you know. I didn't see the experiences that I had that were actually extremely violating and were not consensual as … I, I saw them as normal. I wasn’t even able to recognize, "Wait! I, I wasn’t okay with that. Why did that happen?" And I, I truly think that's like a universal female experience, you know, when it comes to sex, when it comes to, um, interacting wi-, with, um … with men and with, um … Yeah, you know, it's a really, um … it was a really disheartening thing when I had experiences of being … so deeply violated, being sexually assaulted and … realizing, wow, like the other person had no idea what just happened. Like he's just going about his life, and I'm here like just trying to put pieces together and fragments of, of, um … It, it's just, it a, it was a really eye-opening, um, perspective shift.

Paul: Are, are you comfortable in sharing about that experience?

Amy: Sure, yeah. So it is … it, it, you know, it's happened multiple points throughout my life. And I've only just now been able to, um … contextualize and recognize them. But I, it actually happened, and I was just talking to the friend I had lunch with (laughs) about this, but I was on a trip. I was studying abroad in Greece. And it was an amazing trip. And then, I did some solo traveling. And I kind of, um, was out in the world by myself for the first time. And, um, actually a friend ended up, I ended up running into a friend (laughs) and had a great experience. And none of the stuff I prepared for actually—I, you know, I was prepared to like get mugged or like, you know, like "Keep, keep your money hidden, " and like all this stuff that people (laughs) tell you when you travel, especially as a woman, you know. And none of that stuff happened. Instead, it's like I met this cute guy. He worked at a restaurant by my hotel. And, you know, we talked, and we hit it off, and we had drinks. And everything, you know, I was really attracted to him. And, and I actually did want to have sex with him. And, I think that, that fact kind of … messed with me in a lot of ways because I did. I just didn’t want sex in the way that he insisted we have sex. And he kept, he was not responding or listening to what I was trying to communicate. And, um, and was not respecting my boundaries. And—

Paul: That's such an important point, too, because, uh, so many people, when they judge a situation, uh, you know, while they may not be, um, you know, overtly victim shaming or saying, you know, "Well, why were you there," or "What … were you wearing?" There's that belief that, that if you go to someone's hotel room, it's like you're just allowing someone through a gate, and then whatever happens just happens. "Well, you voted for sex!"

Amy: (Laughs) Yeah, that's it! It's like, "It's all out of your hands now!" Yeah, I think that's really important that it's extremely nuanced, and it's not, you know … I'm—

Paul: A lot of feedback—

Amy: Absolutely!

Paul: —necessary for a good experience.

Amy: Absolutely! And I'm, I'm learning that, that I have a voice, and I can ask for what I want. And not only, like I think one of the hardest things that I had to, like, it's this idea of, um … consent. And we think that … If you don’t say no, that's consent, you know. Like, and it's not that. Like, I think consent is like, you have to say yes, and you have to be willingly participating and like your partner should look engaged and excited and happy and like, you know, present with you, you know. You shouldn’t … I don’t think you should be engaging with someone in a sexual way who is … you know, shut down, which I, I clearly was, you know. But it …

Paul: So he didn’t seem to be interested in your experience?

Amy: No.

Paul: It's like you were there to serve his pleasure.

Amy: Absolutely! And, and it was so, um—

Paul: And, and were you just shut down? Did you, uh, say anything? And this is not me trying to validate the experience or, or invalidate it. I just, I'm trying to bring comfort to somebody who's listening to this and, and is still blaming themselves or saying that my experience doesn’t count, because it wasn’t bad enough.

Amy: Absolutely. That's, that's huge. So, I think, for me, it was, um, I didn't, at the time, it did not register me that this, to me that this was not consensual or that I was not feeling safe and that—I knew I didn’t, I was like "I, I'm not enjoying this anymore. I don’t want to do this anymore." And my response to that was, "Let's just get it over with." You know, this per-, like—And I had a very similar experience to that, uh in my younger years in high school, where it was just like, "Okay, let's just like get this over with. This person's really not, not gonna quit." And I think, and I, you know, I don’t even blame—It's like I think guys are socialized to like pride themselves on how many sexual partners they have, and like ju-, it's a very toxic dynamic. But, it really didn't register me, to me, um, until the next, uh, day when I, I left. I was sleeping in a different hotel room. I was already in a different city at this, or—Yeah, different town at this point. And, I had this like extremely visceral nightmare, um … about, it was a different situation, but it was kid of the same story, where I was like trying to say no to something, but I couldn’t. Like I, I, my voice … you know, in like dream world, everything's (laughs) like a little warp side. Like I was just like shaking my head, I was like trying to, to say no, and this person just couldn’t hear me and wasn’t listening. And, yeah, that feeling of, of, of powerlessness really sunk in at that moment, like, "Whoa! That, that wasn’t okay." Like my brain might have been saying, "Oh, this is fine. Let's just get through this. Whatever, you know, I'll just move on. He was cute. Okay, it's fine, whatever," you know. And my—

Paul: Or, or, or there's, or there's even, uh, physical pleasure, but your soul is saying something about this doesn’t feel right. And … that compartmentalization, that shutting down that we get so used to as children, that's the tool we use to deal with it, instead of saying, "Uh, hey, stop for a second. We need to talk."

Amy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that, that's a big one. The like physical arousal too, like … that I really learned, oh, like yeah. I'm a freaking human. Like (laughs) my body's gonna respond to stimulation. And that doesn’t mean that I was like okay with—Like, yeah, on the soul level, uh, doesn’t mean I was okay with it. And emotionally. And, and that's kind of, yeah, it took a while to sink it. But once I had that dream, I was like, "Whoa! My body was not cool with that," you know. And it's making it very clear (laughs) to me. And, and, you know, I say that, too, with a grain of salt, in that it's not always clear. Like that—

Paul: There's a lot of gray area in there. And, and the important thing in processing it is not deciding whether or not it's prosecutable. That, that's a separate issue, and you should never wait to process your feelings, um, based on some legality. It's your feelings are your feelings.

Amy: Absolutely!

Paul: And, um … I have to say that … since doing this podcast, I've also become aware of men experiencing, uh, the, the same thing. And, I had an experience about six months, a year ago, where I didn't want to stop because I didn't want to hurt this woman's feelings. But I was really not enjoying it, and I was shut down. And I was waiting for it to be over. And the next day, I went, "Holy fuck! I … I, I've been talking about this eight years, and I just assumed because I'm a male, I should go through with this experience." Now, it's not, I'm not being penetrated, which brings in a whole other thing, but, you know, she couldn’t have physically overpowered me. But there's still that, um, leverage of me not wanting to hurt somebody's feelings. And whether I'm applying that leverage or somebody else is applying it, it's still ignoring our needs and doing something that we don’t want to, to do.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely! I think that's really valid, and I think … wow! I think we're, thank you for sharing that. I think we're really, um … taught, I think as a society, it's, it's so dangerous to—We put so many expectations on ourselves, especially sexually, especially in our interactions with people we're attracted to because, um, we're taught that we're supposed to be a certain or look a certain way or have a certain type of body, you know. And it's … And it, and yeah, not tuning into ourselves, not having access to ourselves is, is so, causes so much, um, pain. Yeah.

Paul: And, and I also wanna add, on the flip side, I have been that guy, that is solely focused on my pleasure and didn’t realize the damage that I probably did to, uh, women. And I have a tremendous amount of shame and regret, uh, a-, around that. And it's been one of the hardest things for me to, uh, make peace with. And I've, uh, apologized where, where I could. But, it's, um … it, I think goes back to what you were talking about, that people can have both dark and light. And I think the best that we … can hope for is that we recognize that we self-reflect, try to learn from it, and no longer be that, no longer be that person, um, and that somebody can experience both. You know, when I share that on a, an episode a while, back, uh, my female guest shared the same thing, that she had continued having sex with a boyfriend or male partner who wasn’t into it, and she had manipulated him. And it hadn’t occurred to her until recently that what she had done was, was violate him. There's so much, there is so much to learn, and I think the thing that we should always try to keep track of is how can we support the person who was harmed, how can we help them take care of themselves, validate their feelings, and how can we learn from it and communicate with each other and say, "Hey, there's, here's, here's a story that illustrates a lot of really complex shit? Let's talk about this, so this doesn’t happen, uh, as much—"

Amy: Let's break it down! Absolutely. And it, it just blows my mind, the things that, that I hear that are like, you know, in the media, um, the whole, you know, Me Too movement, which is amazing, and just, um … the overtly sexual assaults, sex-, you know, sexual violence that we’re still debating as a society (laughs), like whether not that happened. When I heard about that, I'm like, "Well, obviously, you know, that was not consensual." But then, getting down to the real nitty-gritty of it is like, it, it's really complicated. And we need a safe space to talk about it. And, and I really believe that, um, for a long time—I'll just share, you know … I've had a lot of, um, aversion to interacting with men because I'm either afraid of them or I'm sexualizing them or I'm sexualizing myself. And there, you know, that's, that was my go to, was the only way I knew how to interact with men. And, um, and then after that, I had a lot of rage and a lot of anger. And now I'm coming into this place where I'm like, "Oh, wait." Like … we need to be one each other's team because it's like so, you know. I, I really think that at the end of the day, we're all just looking for connection. And I think, I think, in a lot of ways, um, you know, I'm not a man, so I can't speak from that experience, but I do, I've, I do know that I've, I've talked to a lot of men and people who share that it, it's isolating. And there's not a lot of connection often. And—

Paul: What is isolating?

Amy: Like, um, just masculinity. You know, this idea that like being a man looks like this. And, I think … I mean, I guess I'll say, like as a, as a girl and as a woman, I, I always had—not always—but it was pretty easy for me to access emotions, and I was encouraged to like, "How are you feeling—"you know. I don't think men, I don't think boys and men have that. I think they're taught to like be tough or whatever. Don’t cry, don’t show feelings. And that's like … (sighs) I can't imagine. I think that's why, you know … this is a lot, of just my own personal opinion, but I think that's why we have like a lot of like mass shooters that are men and pe—Cuz there's like, I cannot imagine not to, uh, not to validate that. Like obviously not okay; no one should go out and shoot anyone. But—

Paul: But, but we need to start learning what are causing these things, if there is a cause, you know. It's certainly not a waste of time, wanting to try to break down what they dynamics are at, at work here. And especially with, uh, sexual assaults. I, I, I think in, in the media, we tend to have this almost, uh, kind of Roman coliseum glee of seeing people's lives, careers, being obliterated. And I'm not saying those people shouldn’t get consequences, but, in addition to that, let's say, where did this person think that that was okay? How, how were they raised? Was that a factor? How, how, you know, what—Did it come from somewhere? Maybe not, maybe it didn't. But let's at least try. But go ahead; I cut you off.

Amy: Oh, no; that's okay—

Paul: Because it's my right as a white man.

Amy: (Laughs) No worries. No, I appreciate you sharing that. And, and I was just thinking, too, like, what ab-, how do we heal? How do we heal this? And I think men need just as much healing as women do, you know. And it's, um, I, I don’t think we, you know—

Paul: The denial is so much larger in the male community for what consti-, constitutes abuse towards us, sexual abuse towards us. And this is not me saying, "Hey, look. We're, we're worse victims." We all have our own hurdles to, to deal with. And I think it's identifying the hurld, hurdles and not saying this is a contest of who has it more difficult on the planet.

Amy: Sure. Yeah. And you know, cuz that doesn’t serve us. It's like, I think, for me, what has been helpful has been sitting down, just like this, and communicating and talking and saying, "This is my experience." And, and I've had challenging conversations. I've talked to men who think, who, you know, are a little bit in their privilege (laughs), and they, they don’t understand, um, why the way that they're behaving and they thing that they said was hurtful or was, was not okay. And, um, you know, it doesn’t, I don’t think, shaming any, anyone helps. I think really sitting down and having discourse and dialogue, talking about things that are hard, and, um, showing up honestly and authentically and vulnerably and, you know … asking—

Paul: And, and if you disagree with someone, try to do it diplomatically, and not just destroy them so that you can walk away feeling like, you know, I won.

Amy: Yeah. I think, and you know, it's like asking questions. And I think, well like that, for me, like that just goes back to trauma, too. That, I see, well, you know, feeling like I won, it's like, well, there's obviously—And I have that experience, too. Like, "Man, I really like wanna win this argument." It's like, there's a part of me, um, you know, an inner child part that maybe felt fully like defeated. And now, in response to that, I'm gonna win every argument that I have, you know, because that's a protective coping mechanism. Yeah. That's actually something I wanted to talk about, is I've recently—

Paul: Hold that thought. We'll come back to that in a second. We never did get to the, uh, childhood fantasy that you had—

Amy: Oh, right!

Paul: —that, that kind of, uh, highlights how lost in thought you were for some type of safe thing, where you would feel seen.

Amy: Yeah. Well, I mean, I was so, the fantasy was huge—I mean, I would stare at people, like teachers remark on my report card, you know, like, "Amy's so smart, but she's kind of a daydreamer." And I would just stare out the window, um, for a long time. And … the boy part, it was like, when I was a child, it wasn’t quite as like full-blown yet. But I still had crushes, wanted to, um, you know, always had a crush on someone, always was kinda like wanting to interact with the boys, which I think is normal. You know, I think kids, it's okay. I think, for me, what tips it over the edge is when I started to actually, you know, get into my teenage years and, um, start having relationships with boys. I, um, the obsession, the inability to function. And—

Paul: For instance?

Amy: Like, you know, I … Just the focus, I mean … It's hard to, to think of a specific moment, but just the …

Paul: Amount of time in your head—

Amy: That I spent, yeah. Absolutely—

Paul: —thinking, "Is this gonna work out? Does he love me as much as I love him?" Or, "He's starting to smother me. How do I get out of this, but I don't wanna hurt his feelings?" All, all of those things?

Amy: All of those things. Like I … To give an example, there was a boy in high school who I had a HUGE crush on and, um, was SO, just, I, I thought he was like so cute, I was so attracted to him. And I, somehow, got, I think I looked him up on MySpace (laughs) or something. I like got in touch with him. And, we started talking. And he was like kind of flirting back. And, and then he, he wanted to meet me … uh, before school. But then, somehow like I ended up skipping class to go hang out with this guy. And I was, that was NOT like, I was very much a good girl, very much like, that for me was so out of—

Paul: That was not authentic to you.

Amy: Yeah, I was like—But I was so enamored by this person that I was willing to do anything just to get his attention. And, you know, he actually, like … He's actually one of the persons I had really, another really harmful, violating experience with. But I was so desperate for any attention that I was willing to overlook and sacrifice, uh, my needs. And, uh—

Paul: And, and, and people will very often continue seeing the person who violated them. And then people will negate their experience, saying, "Well, how bad could it have been?" But they don't realize that part of the trauma is com-, minimizing it and trying to convince yourself it wasn’t bad, so that you don’t have to face that painful, that painful truth.

Amy: Absolutely.

Paul: If, if you're comfortable sharing, uh, about it, can you sh-, can share what the moment was like when it goes from this dream is coming true, to this is turning bad?

Amy: Yeah. So, it's interesting cuz this … is actually a good segue into what I wanted to talk about earlier. But … it was like, I, I had, there's kind of this gnawing feeling the whole time, especially over the like skipping school. Like I was like, "Oh my god, I should be in class (laughs)!" Like, you know, this is like, I was very anxious about that. And, um, just kind of this feeling. But, but I was so, like, just, so intensely attracted to this person, that I was just like getting high off of the energy, off of like, I wanna keep, you know, it's like kissing him and like just, it was so … For me, as like a young teenage girl, I was like, it was … I was so sucked into that situation. And—

Paul: And what was the fantasy for you, the daydream before getting together with him? Kissing him, having sex, with him, just holding his hand, talking, you know, what—

Amy: Just his, just I … I like that he was gonna be my boyfriend. Like that's (laughs) what I wanted—

Paul: He was gonna pay attention to you—

Amy: Yeah. Like he was gonna be my boyfriend, we were gonna be in a relationship. Yeah, holding hands. I don’t think it was, it wasn’t … It wasn’t sex, although it like, it's ha-, you know … I think, it's important—And that something that I've had to, as an adult, reevaluate what are my boundaries. And because I think, you know, it's like there's handholding, there's kissing, and then there's like making out. And then, you know, when is nudity okay? Like these, there's, it's, um, there's a gradual … I think evolution of, of, of how things become sexual. I think it’s a spectrum. And so, it wasn’t necessarily sex, but it was—I guess—So, okay, this feels (laughs) so silly. I was a kid, and as a 14-year-old, I think I, I think was like, yeah, 14, and, um, it was, I wanted to kiss him, but I wanted to like French kiss him. And that was like the fantasy in my mind, cuz I had never done that before. And it was like, uh, that was the fantasy.

Paul: Okay.

Amy: And, in a way, like all of that happened and more. And … it was just such a gradual like, it’s almost like the thing that I'm us-, that is making me feel so alive, you know … it’s, it's intense, it's exciting, it's amazing, is slowly eating away at me. And, and then before you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm feeling sick over it. I'm feeling—And then it just feels, um, like this complete anxiety, guilt, um, dissociation. I had, you know, it's really—And I had, that was such a formative experience for me, um, in that—

Paul: And was he aware any of this was going on with you?

Amy: No. He was just a, a teenage boy trying, you know … wanting to, to … um, be sexual with me, you know. And it was, and not … just, it's like I feel like someti-, I think boy … My experience with him was like he had like, um, a, kind of a target, like a bullet point, and he was just like, "Oh, going for the bullseye! Like that's what I want." And, it didn't go that far, but it, I was really violated in a lot of ways. And … coming out of that situation, I remember—And this is only, I've only experienced this through processing, through therapy, through other support groups for like doing a lot of inner work over these past couple years, um, that that was a huge turning point for me in my, my relationship—I remember thinking, after that experience, cuz not only was it an extremely violating experience, after that, I tried to engage with him and interact with him, and he COMPLETELY like, he shamed me. He was like … oh my god. And then I never wanna see you—

Paul: What did he shame you about?

Amy: Just different, like he said I was a bad kisser. He shamed my body. And it was just like really hurtful. And, well, I … it could have also been in defense, cuz I probably attacked him over it and was like, "Hey, why haven’t you called me," you know, whatever, teenage kids do. And … and I was SO humiliated and SO heartbroken. I remember there was a shift, and I was like, "Uh-uh, no more. Like I'm done. Not gonna … I, I'm in control now. I'm not gonna let anyone in; I'm not gonna let—" And I became more of an avoidant person, where I was like, "I control. I will engage in relationships with people where I feel like I have the power. And I'm not gonna let anyone take advantage of me in that way again."

Paul: Which is just like the pendulum swinging the o-, the, the other way, instead of saying, you know, "I'm gonna stick to boundaries next time. I'm gonna communicate. I'm only gonna stay in a relationship with somebody who understands feedback and give and take." It's like, nope! Fuck the world! I'm gonna buy an island."

Amy: Absolutely. And it was like … oh my god. As you were saying that, I'm like, "God, I wish I had that language or those tools." But I really didn't—

Paul: We don’t get taught 'em!

Amy: Yeah! So it's this like … that was another shift. And, and, um—

Paul: So it was gradual, then, that turning into a nightmare with that guy—

Amy: It was really gradual. Oh, totally!

Paul: And, did you touch on the moment that I paused us at to, uh, inject some bullshit?

Amy: Yes! So, well, what I wanted to say was that … in that moment—So what, part of the work that I've been doing recently is, um, it's called like parts works, where, um, uh, Richard Schwartz came up with this, it's called internal family systems, IFS, and self-leadership. And the basic concept is like when a part of us, um, when we a traumatized and we experience trauma, whether it’s like major trauma or, or just, you know, some kid making fun of your hair at school, whatever, you know, like, um, a part of us, our personality splits off and, um, forms, it … this defense mechanism and this other part that protects it. And so, in that situation, the part of me that felt like deeply hurt, humiliated, violated, um, ashamed of myself, mad at myself for skipping school, like so many emotions, um … became, kinda got stuck there in that 14-year-old version of myself. And … this protector person, who was like, "Fuck that! I'm in control now. I'm not gonna let anyone hurt me ever again," swinging the pendulum, she came in to protect me. And, now I have those two parts living within me that I have to like navigate. And that's just of one situation. There's a lot of—Like another, uh, another great person who I've been listening to recently, um, Teal Swan, she talks about fragmentation and, um, how, yeah, our personalities just fragment. And, a big part of healing is, is just integrating all these parts of us. And none of them are bad. And, you know, it's okay—Like, having acceptance of, um … my coping mechanisms.

Paul: Yeah. Which, which is not to … to say that, you know, if that fractured part of is harming others, that we shouldn’t take ownership of it and, you know … try to learn how to correct any parts of those. A lot of times, people think that self-love means shirking responsibility if that self-love is accepting, uh, a part of ourselves that is ugly or dark. And it's not that at all. It's, it's like along the way of bettering yourself, love that part, love that wart while you're putting the gel on it (both laugh).

Amy: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um … that's been quite a journey for me, in authentically loving myself, not just like, "Okay, I love myself. When am I gonna get better?" You know, like doing my affirmations in the mirror, but like genuinely like, you know, it’s like we can’t bullshit ourselves. We can't just say I love you five times and then we're healed.

Paul: It's like saying I'm in shape.

Amy: Yeah (laughs).

Paul: No! It's like, you … It's an exercise. Those, they're actions, actions of self-love, in my experience, lead to the feeling of self-love.

Amy: And they're not always easy to take.

Paul: Ugh! That's an understatement.

Amy: (Laughs)

Paul: Ugh, feels so gross sometimes!

Amy: Yeah! Scary—

Paul: It's really scary.

Amy: It’s those parts, you know, the, my inner children and all those parts, like they literally, it was for survival. So sometimes like … genuine connection or intimacy with someone, like in my, you know, whatever, five-year-old brain, like I've, that feels like I'm gonna die. Like because, you know, I truly felt that threatened as a child. And, you know, I never, I never felt like I was gonna die. But it was a very terrifying—

Paul: Your safety was at stake.

Amy: Absolutely. Yeah. And so, of course, as an adult … experiences are gonna trigger those same emotions and it’s gonna feel like life or death. And … yeah, it's been so crucial for me to come back to myself and my adult self and take responsibility for the people I've harmed, but also have boundaries. And just talk it out with people. Like that community is so important—

Paul: And, and so what did—if you're comfortable sharing—what did the harm look like?

Amy: The harm that I like did to others?

Paul: Um-hmm.

Amy: Yeah. So, um, I was in a really long, I was in a couple of really long relationships where I was totally, um, avoidant. You know, it was that part of me that was like, "Okay, like I really like you, but I'm in control here. Don’t get this wrong. You know, I'm calling the shots." And I very much had one foot in and one foot out the door, you know.

Paul: And then, would you manipulate to keep them strung along, so they wouldn’t go, "Hey, what the fuck?"

Amy: Yeah. Oh, I definitely, I would tot-, I would totally emotionally manipulative. I would like, um—And, and, you know … none of it was conscious. I wasn’t doing it on purpose, but it, yeah, very much like I would, um, you know, be really jealous about something. I would like through my ex's phone, find something to be angry about, get really jealous, and be mad and bring it up to him. And then he would get mad then I went through his phone and invaded his privacy in that way. And, you know, we would just have this huge like fight. And then I would cry and break down. And like, you know, in a lot of ways, I was kind of, I realized in my last relationship, I was very much, um … I had this pattern of, kind of like poking at him. Like I would like, he was, um … very much, um … just trying to like meet my needs. And, um, he … I could poke him. I knew I could kind of like push, and then push a little bit. And I knew how to like kind of push his buttons, and I would do that and do that. And then, all of a sudden—He would just take it, and then it would just explode, and he would just rage at me, much in the way that my step dad did when I was a kid. And then when he would do that, I would just cry, like I would breakdown and like sob and cry. And then, he would comfort and console me and be like, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry—" you know. And … and it was a really, I was really just replaying this trauma (laughs), trying to resolve it, you know.

Paul: And I wonder, too, if in, in that moment, you were the, the, part of yourself that, that wanted to protect you was like, "I know he's like the others. Let's push him until we're proven right."

Amy: Definitely, like, I'm, I'm … I wanted to test him. And it wasn’t, and it was also like, I push people away, too, because I'm so afraid they're gonna leave me. I'm so afraid, and that goes back to my, you know, um, early abandonment stuff, you know. And that like, I'm like are you, I wanna make sure you're really in this, even at my worse, worse moments. So, let me just push and push and push. And then, you know, the minute they kind of pull away, I'm like, "See! I told you you were gonna abandon me (laughs)," you know, like (both laugh).

Paul: I love it when we just erase any part we have in it. And that's one of the things I love about the support group that, that we're in, is we both give weight to our feelings AND looked, if possible, if, if we had a part in, if not necessarily a certain instance, a pattern as a, as a whole. And that is so liberating, to get that information because then the world feels safer, because we have clarity on where our power is and where it's okay to use that power, you know, through boundaries and stuff like that, and where we're using it to manipulate or to … harm in the idea of, this is protecting, this is protecting me.

Amy: Yeah. Oh my god, I so relate. And I, yeah, I feel that, um, that's been a big gift for me, too, of that support group, is that, um, learning … that I have power in my life, and no one can take that away from me. No one can, um … abandon me as an adult if, as long as I don’t abandon myself, you know. And so, it's like I get to, if someone is, is doing something that I don’t feel comfortable with, I, I trust that I can leave, I can walk away. I can, um … I just, I have so much more trust in myself and in my power now. It's, it's been amazing. Yeah.

Paul: So what was the turning point that finally brought you to get help?

Amy: You know, I recognized, um … You know, I've kinda been in and out of therapy, um, since college. I had some, when I first went to college, I had massive anxiety. Like was having panic attacks on a daily basis. I was, you know, I think I was like 18, I had just moved away from home. And, um, and it was just, I was, I was so anxious. And I had no idea what was happening (chuckles). And so, I started to do therapy. And then I took a break. And then I got in a relation-, couple of relationships, I think. And then, um, I think … really seeing in my last long-term relationship, seeing the damage that I did. And we were both at a point, you know—I, I still have a lot of love for that person, um, and a lot of respect for their journey. And, because we really, I think, together, we really healed in a lot of way, and that's such a great tool of relationships. But we just did a number on each other. And really (sighs), by the end of it, we were so … broken down. And, and I realized that like I could genuinely love someone. That doesn’t mean that I'm supposed to be with them. It doesn’t mean that it's a good fit, that we're compatible, that it's a good match, you know. Love is an emotion, and there are, and it's a great emotion. It's amazing to experi—I think everyone should have more love in their life. But, it shouldn’t control me. And, and I, I can make choices. And so, I ended up just ending that relationship in a very similar way that my previous relationship ended. And I, I just was like, "Wait. I see a pattern. Something's happening here." And I just did some research. And, um, and realized that there was a lot of healing (laughs) to happen. It's like, "Wait, there's other people like me that, that have similar experiences and who are talking about it and willing to go there." Like that, for me, has been everything. I'm like, "I, I can talk to people." Just know that like I don’t have to do anything alone anymore, in the way I felt as a child, like I had to figure everything out. It's like I have friends and people I can connect with and ask for feedback and ask for help. Oh my god, asking for has been like HUGE!

Paul: It's so scary at first. It's still scary to me. It's still scary to me.

Amy: Yeah, it's really scary. But that's been amazing for me.

Paul: Were there moments, uh, early in recovery where you experienced something that you felt like, "Oh my god, this is the feeling I've been looking for my whole life?"

Amy: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Others—

Paul: Can you share any?

Amy: Yeah. I remember my, uh, first time going to the support group. It was, um, I remember … uh, talking about how I just, I was coming out of this relationship that wasn’t officially over yet, but it was, I kind of fully self-destructed (laughs) the relationship. And, um, feeling like I did not understand what was wrong with me. I was just, I remember sharing that I felt like my partner was so loving and was willing to just, not matter what I did, he just—which, I now realize—I’m like, "Oh, let's go to Venice (laughs)." Whatever I did to him, like whatever I did, he was willing to forgive and he was just, poured his love into me. And I felt like this bottomless pit and this emptiness. And I just shared and I cried. And I was like, "I don’t know what's wrong with me. I just feel empty inside. Like, no matter how much love anyone gives me, it just goes right through me." And I remember someone coming up and talking to me after the meeting and, and saying, um, "You know, we all feel that way. Like that feeling that you're describing, like everyone here feels that way." And I was like, "WHAT?!" It just blew my mind that, that I wasn’t alone. And I, and then I had multiple experiences of just like … understanding that everything I've gone through has been for, um, a reason. It's been so that I can heal, so that I can grow as a person, you know, so I can heal on like a soul level, um, this trauma that, um … and learn, learn lesson—Like, you know, I really think, had I not gone through all the things that I, um, that I experienced, I wouldn’t have this amazing community that I had. And I had, it was like … stepping into a whole new life, you know. Because before, I thought I was happy, you know. I thought I would—But I was chasing a high. It was like, when's the next time I get to see my boyfriend or, you know, go out and drink and let's go to a club and let's go, um, you know—I was just living for the highs and tolerating the lows. And now I'm in a much more stable place, where I'm okay with myself. I'm okay with my life. Of course, I'm always trying to grow and make progress. But I can truly say that I'm in a much better place today.

Paul: Yeah. And, uh … Her boyfriend, who I know and love, to me, is a, is a great example of that, cuz he's just a solid, solid, sensitive, um, guy.

Amy: He's amazing, yeah. And that's been a journey, you know. That's been, I mean, we've been together, I think we got together January, so it’s been maybe like seven or eight months now. And … that, that (laughs), and like experiencing true intimacy and connection with him, because he's really, um, vulnerable and honest and it's like—

Paul: Present.

Amy: Present! Oh, that, that, to me, was like, it was so scary. I remember talking to friends and being like, "It’s like when I'm with him, he's like really like, he just is like staring into my eyes. And I like (both laugh), it's insane!" And feeling … I think, for me, a bit part of being in a healthy relationship is being willing to be seen and fully seen and also fully seeing the other person for what they are. And for someone who grew up in my childhood, where it was not safe to be seen, you know, like of course I'm freaking out because here's someone who's just … He's really here with me. And like …

Paul: But, of course, he yells at you when you spill milk.

Amy: (Laughs) Of course (laughs)!

Paul: I mean, that's just common sense.

Amy: Of course, I have to be perfect all the time. But, really, you know, he like, out of all my relationships and friendships, um—and that’s another huge thing for me, is realizing like, oh I, like I can have a relationship, but it shouldn’t take over my whole life. I have friendships. I have, you know, a fam-, my family. I'm still, I still love and care about them; I'm connected to my family. And that love can come in many shapes and sizes and forms, and it's not just, um, romantic—

Paul: An ice cream sandwich.

Amy: Yeah (laughs).

Paul: They come in, uh, in other shapes.

Amy: (Laughs) I mean, it can, yeah, absolutely. And I used to think that love was just romantic love. Like that's what I should strive for. And it's, it's so much more than that, you know.

Paul: Diplomatically disagreeing is one of the highest forms of love, to me. And, and coming together after dip-, you know, not turning into a one, one of us is gonna win, one of us is gonna lose, but rather how can we, uh, find an overlapping reality and move forward. That, to me, is one of the highest, highest forms of love. And you know, as you were just sharing, I was thinking, probably the only thing more difficult than overcoming a traumatic childhood is letting a healthy person love us.

Amy: (Laughs) Oh god (both laugh)!

Paul: And feeling like they might be right. I'm still working on that one.

Amy: Hitting the nail on the head there. That like, to me, because it's like I'm—And you know, and the, the trauma work for me, that's like ongoing. That, and I'm, I'm, I'm an exception, so like I'm gonna have to work the rest of my life on that, you know. That's it's … and that's, that okay, you know. Like—

Paul: But, but there's forward motion. It’s not like—

Amy: Exactly, and it's getting better. Yeah, and I have tools and I have people that I can talk to, so it's getting better. But, I remember (laughs) like, yeah, experiencing this relationship, I was like, whoa, like this is a whole new level. And I just tru—Yeah, like, again it felt like I was gonna die. Like I, I just really needed, um, so much support when we first started dating. And luckily, it's like things have leveled out. But it's still, things come up and it, it … We just were like perfectly matched to kind of trigger each other (laughs) in this way that it gives us opportunities to grow, you know. And so, it is, um … It is such a, a … a worthy … but challenging experience, you know.

Paul: Well, well put.

Amy: Yeah.

Paul: Well, Amy, thanks so much for, uh, sharing your story and, uh, opening up about all those things.

Amy: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

End of Interview

[01:33:22] What a nice conversation. I love having people on from, uh, from my support groups. There's, there's just like that immediate comfort. I think that's one of the things that I like so much about support groups, is, you know, when you see people week in and week out … and you're talking about deep issues ad you're getting vulnerable, there's like an instant comfort with somebody. Like whatever the anxiety and the dread is of going to a cocktail party, to me, support groups are like the exact opposite of it, of it.

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[01:37:19] This is a survey from the what has helped you survey, filled out by, uh, a woman who calls herself "Bee Ron." And, uh, she's in her 40s and, uh, her issues (laughs) … What are your issues or struggles: "Good lord? Ye gods! Well, PTSD, anxiety, depression, chronic pain, and oh that anorexia thingy I'm too scared to say out loud. I guess my body does some of the taking for me." What has helped you deal with these? "I use a few loyal coping skills. Video games shut the whole world out. Everything has to stop, because mentally and physically, I'm taking on better worlds and being a better version of myself. A hero who changes the outcomes so nobody I need has to die." That's such an eloquent way of putting why we love the escape of, of video games. Or at least you described mine. And you can restart it. When you let everybody down, you get a do over. That's what I love. And, I don't know about you, but the competitive prick in me really enjoys that aspect of it. It's like I have a finite set of numbers that I can assign my personal (laughs) self-worth to. It's so fucked up. What else has helped you? "Horse riding, though physically taxing, is wonderful. When I get to my legendary X Wild Brumby and take him for a run about the paddocks, I'm completely in the moment and I know I got one thig right in my life." That was like a sentence out of a Harry Potter novel. "When I get to my legendary X Wild Brumby and take him for a run about the paddocks …" I don’t even know what a paddocks is. The paddocks is right next to the bullocks. It’s the whole (laughs) of the bullocks (laughs). "I turned a flight animal into therapy animal." That's so beautiful. "He's helped a few people in his short life." What have people said or done that has helped you with your issues? "My best friend is very good with my eating stuff. She keeps it's practical. Never pushes and just treats me the same as a normal eater. This friend and a few others let me housesit for them. Living alone, being free and safe, is my dream, and for a few months a year, I'm afforded that luxury. I hope to literally afford it myself next year. Anyone who uses the counseling microskills such as empathic listening is a wonderful help. My dada is the best person on the planet, and actual hero. He needs his own video game." I would play it. I would play … the video game "My Dad." And then she writes, "You're a good egg, young Paul. It's grand to have some happy hours, thanks to you." You sound like a sweetheart! That's not a, is that a patronizing … term? Oh god! Apologies to the people with misophonia. The, uh—I, I would bet that they didn't make it through the first two minutes of the podcast, listening to my, uh, stuffed-up nose.

[01:40:43] This is just a portion of a shame and secret survey that I wanted to read. This is filled out by a woman who calls herself "Frenchie Who." And, um … to the question, uh, you ever been emotionally or physically abused, she's never been physically abused, but she has been emotionally abused. And she writes, "My husband is a narcissist and a great talker. He gaslights me constantly and demeans me in many different ways. I am just dead inside about it now after 38 years with him and three kids. I am terrified to leave, due to different issues, financial, and scared to be alone. I don’t have a great outside support center, and I just can't face the ugliness a divorce would bring. He would fight tooth and nail. I'd never get a penny. I’d be ostracized, and he'd somehow take my kids' love away. Could this really happen? Not sure, but he can absolutely make me feel like it would." First of all, I am sorry that you are struggling with this. I can't imagine, uh, how difficult all those, those things must be. And the reason I wanted to read this is I just wanna urge you to put the future-tripping aside and take baby steps towards building a support network. You know, whether it's a domestic shelter, um … you know, finding what kind of resources there are. Because even though he's not hitting you, it's still abuse. And you deserve to feel peace and happiness. And, while the law is far from perfect, I think sometimes we forget that … we can have the law on our side … and we are not necessarily at the mercy of other people's meanness. So … I … I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, because I've not experienced that. But … It's … Relationships are hard, man. They're fucking hard.

[01:43:06] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "No Name To Be Shared." She is straight, in her 20s, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts." I would say that it definitely was. I'm not gonna read the details of it, but a cous-, when she was between four and six, a cousin who was twice her age, um, would sexually, uh, abuse her. And, um … she writes, "When my therapist asked me if I was angry at my cousin, I said I'm not angry. Although now I understand that what he did was wrong, somehow I feel sorry for him rather than angry. I still tell myself that it wasn’t that bad and that he didn’t hurt me physically, as far as I can remember. I should be more concerned about me, but I keep coming up with excuses why his behavior was not bad and that should just pull myself together since it happened 20 years ago." And, by the way, those are the greatest hits of the ways we minimize trauma. "He broke me, but it's difficult for me to be mad at people, because I think they will leave me if I don’t do what they ask me to do." And the, of course, this just fits in perfectly. Not sure if she's been emotionally abused. She writes, "My mother always wanted to be very close to me, when I needed more distance. She called me every day, sometimes several times. She wanted to be my sister or my best friend, rather than my mom. Not sure that counts." Yes, that is a form of abuse. Because it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter what the person's intent was as much as it matters the effect it had on us so that we can process it and become the best version of ourselves and live a, a, a life that feels good, you know. Or, at the very least, that we have some resilience and that we can meet life half way and not wake up every morning with dread. Because I've done both. I've been that person that wakes up every morning and wishes they had died in their sleep. And then I get to experience, now … enjoying my life and feeling peace. And feeling … purpose and fulfillment and joy and … Yeah, I still sometimes hurt and backslide and make mistakes. But the way I handle, I have resilience today, whereas before … I just was so, so stuck. And … you know, one of the reasons I wanted to read your survey is when … when a parent does what your mom did to you early on, when they treat you like a partner rather than a parent, that kid shuts off that part of themselves … that goes to that parent with needs, because it becomes about meeting that parent's need. You know, I'm sure your mother wasn’t conscious of it. She probably thought it was affectionate, you know, to treat you like a peer. But it's not, because it puts the parent's need ahead of the child's. And that, in my experience, sets the child up for a life of people pleasing, not recognizing what our needs are, not being inside our body, having trouble speaking up for ourselves, and thinking that death would be an easier option than walking out the door and facing people. Because we feel cornered in our lives. Because we don’t know that we can set boundaries, and that it's okay to disappoint people, if it means that we’re meeting our own needs. Any positive experiences, uh, with people who abused you? About her cousin: "We were like siblings growing up. We played together and had a good time. I didn’t expect him to do anything bad to me. I trusted him, and I was looking up to him. He was like my hero. I admired him and felt like he protected me." Darkest thoughts: "I just want to die. I don’t see the point in life, but I'm scared to end because my family and friends would be hurt, and I don’t want to disappoint them and make them sad. And also, someone would find me, and I don’t want them to feel bad or get a trauma for the rest of their life." Darkest secrets: "I took some coins from my great-grandmother's purse every now and then. It wasn’t much, but I'm really ashamed I did it." You are a fucking monster. All the rest of that stuff, I have no problem with. But taking a coin from your great-grandmother's purse … Monstrous! Monstrous! But seriously, you sound like such a sweet, sweet soul who … just wants safety, so that you can be vulnerable and connect. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you. "I used to be really turned on by the thought of having sex with my dad. Actually, I still am a bit. I'm embarrassed and ashamed and would never tell anyone about it." I have jerked off thinking about jerking off in front of my mom. And I fucking own it. It’s not really there much anymore, but when I was processing some of the traumas that I went through, that was my brain's way of dealing with it. And I had been in support groups long enough to know to not shame myself for it. And I actually found it kind of funny. And that helped, that helped me process all of that stuff. Nobody has ever shamed themselves into becoming the person they wanna be. So don’t be ashamed about that. What I'm saying is, ask your dad out on a date. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? I'm always second-guessing when I … you know, try to inject humor into these moments of darkness. I, the, the insecure part of me always worries that it's in terrible taste or … you know, it’s gonna turn people off. And that, I think that goes back to me … feeling like there is a part of me that isn't good enough, and that I need to be vigilant, otherwise you will discover what that is and you will leave me. And when I say it out loud, I know it's unhealthy, but it just presents itself as a vague anxiety when I do something that … people might not like. And as I say that now, I think, "Well, fuck them! It's my podcast. I can make whatever jokes I want." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would like to ask my mother why she didn’t abort me. She was really young when she had me, and I never understood why she decided to have the baby. After all, it was just an accident." What, if anything, do you wish for? "That the people I care about will be happy and fulfill their dreams." Have you shared these things with others? "Some of them, yes. I told my therapist and some friends. They were all supportive and also a bit shocked, which make me feel like I had to relativize it and be strong. But it was still good to talk about it and to start working through it." You know, regarding the covert incest, um, I think a great, great book that really helped me is a book called "Silently Seduced," by Kenneth Adams. And every person that I have recommended that to—and it's a quick read. He was the person that coined the term covert incest. How do you feel after writing these things down? "Okay. Writing it is a lot easier than the talking." Is there anything that you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Talk about it. It's scary, but it's not the end of the world." Thank you so much. And, and this was the person who, uh, requested short tips—Short Tip was a name when I was a male dancer—um, who requested some short tips, um, on how to relax or be calm when having a tough time. So, thank you. You're … If you had offed yourself, I wouldn’t have read your survey, and I wouldn’t have been reminded to start reading that survey again. And I know that some people will hear suggestions on those surveys. And it will help them. So you sticking around has already helped people that you don’t even know. But we can't see that when we are … in that place of invisibility and self-loathing and fear and future tripping.

[01:52:27] This is an email that I got from a guy who calls himself, uh, "Ahmed Zama (sp?)," and he writes, "Greetings. It was nice to have your contact, and I hope this mail doesn’t come to you as a surprise." It, again, like the other one, it cau-, it caught me off guard. I actually tipped back in my chair a bit and spilled a little bit of Sanka on my shirt. "I hope it doesn’t come to you as a surprise or be treated as spam—" I never considered that this might be spam. "—because I consider this info highly classified and pertinent." Oh, okay. It's not. "I am Mr. Ahmed Zama, a senior staff in one of the bank, in one of bank here in Burkina Faso. I am contacting you with regards to this particular fund floating at our bank, belonging to one of our deceased customer. I decided to contact you about this unclaimed deposits." And here's the part … "If you are not interested, please ignore this mail and go about your normal business." I just wanna thank you, Ahmed. If you are listening, every time I have read one of these emails where somebody is offering me money stuck in a bank account … I wait for them to tell me to go about my normal business and they never do. And I have wasted months, MONTHS of my life frozen at the computer, thinking it would be RUDE if I were to just go about my normal business. It's funny, I, I always pick out more surveys than I can possibly read. (Sighs.)

[01:54:34] All right, I'm gonna read this. This is a shame and secret survey. This is a long one. This is a long one. It's filled out by a woman who calls herself "Tidal Wave." And she's straight, in her 20s, was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. She's been the victim, uh, of sexual abuse. One, um, she never reported and the other she's not sure if it counts. "I remember bits and pieces of my older brother molesting me. We would be downstairs a lot, playing the Super Nintendo or watch-." Playing the Super Nintendo. Now is the Super Nintendo … available on the Google? "We would be downstairs a lot playing the Super Nintendo—" Actually, that does make sense that you would call it the Super Nintendo. I guess you could call it either the Super Nintendo or Super Nintendo. So fuck me, trying to be all funny. "In the basement, we had a pillow that rolled out to be like a sleeping bag. I remember my brother convinced me to lay in the sleeping bag with him. He would touch my breasts and whisper a girl in his class's name. He would moan and I would feel his boner against my butt. I was in third grade and he was in sixth at the time. When I was even younger, I remember my mom putting what looked like toothpaste from a bottle that looked like toothpaste inside and around my vagina. I remember her asking if Dad ever touched me down there. I can't remember if anyone touched me, but I do remember the coloring of the carpet of my old bedroom floor I was laying on and her putting on what was probably anti-yeast infection lotion. My family is very secretive about problems. If there was an argument about anything, the rule was what happened at home stayed at home. I was nicknamed 'Smiley' since kindergarten. I feel I own that mask and am always smiling and helping others. I feel like a fake. I often feel like I should have killed myself years ago. I have no confidence in myself and am just a prisoner to the self-doubt voice in my head. I self-harmed in college by being so frustrated with college expectations by slicing open my arm with a pair of scissors. It manifested in to punching myself so hard on my head, legs, and arms I developed bruises. I then went to college counseling, and they put me on Citalopram. That curbed my appetite and I lost weight. I began an eating disorder. I still struggle with bulimia, restricting food, and punching myself when I get angry. My brother and I are close now, and I could never confront him about the past. I never have said this or typed this out, and I can't believe it's me. My life. This happened to me. From my brother, who is always kind to me now. He was just a kid and didn't know any better. I wish I didn't remember the incidents. Another incident: I was at a college Halloween party. I went with a group of my friends. I had too much to drink and was separated from my friends. I was downstairs with a guy dressed as a Super Trooper character. I was a virgin at the time, and once he started kissing me and groping me, I asked him where my friends went and that I had to find them. He told me that my friends left the party and that he was going to take care of me. He pushed me down and laid on top of me. A couple came downstairs and he quickly got off of me. When he was talking to the couple, I texted one of my friends and asked why they left me here in the basement. The couple went back upstairs and I suddenly got up to leave. Super Trooper asked where I was going and told me I am the luckiest girl at this party to be with him." He sounds like a winner. "I tried to run past him. He shoved me against the wall and pressed himself against me so tight. He stuffed his fingers in me. Seconds later, he stopped because of a commotion upstairs. My friends, dressed as Scooby Doo, Mario, and a