Ho3nConfirm3d said: Having an S tier mon in the meta is going to warrant this kind of adaptation and reasonable centralization. There exists Shiftry checks that are bona fide sets by themselves (Silvally-Fight, Silvally-Dark, Combsuken, Bellossum, ect.), sets that have a move or item change that is meant for Shiftry (Sub NP Raichu, Sub on the NP Simi sets, Firium Alt, ect), and then extra niche mons that only have an ounce of viability by checking top tiers (Vullaby, Zwei, and I'll throw Monferno here too cause it's waning in viability as well imo). Click to expand...

Pokemon that would be good even if Shiftry wasn't there

4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 175-207 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Silvally-Fighting: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Dark: 142-168 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock



If Silvally takes a Leaf Storm from Shiftry, he becomes unable in the future to take a Sucker Punch at +2. Even Silvally's most bulky spreads lose after chip damage.





4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Combusken: 125-148 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 103-121 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- 29.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 95-113 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock



Combusken isn't a Shiftry check. It can only switch in once to any Shiftry move and is forced to use Protect because it is slower than Shiftry. Also note that once you took a Leaf Storm from Shiftry, you're in range of Sucker Punch i.e. if Combusken switch in onto Leaf Storm it loses to Shiftry (bar incredibly well played Sucker mindgame).





4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



Mawile is quickly worn down by Shiftry's Leaf Storm and is forced to use (and run) Pain Split if it wants to be able to check Shiftry latter in the game. Also Mawile needs to run Play Rough to directly threaten Shiftry. So Mawile to be able to consistently check Shiftry needs to run 2 moves when it already has a big 4mss with Knock Off/Seismic Toss/Super Fang/Toxic/Taunt.





+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellossom: 263-309 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes



Great Shiftry check that loses to it after 2 SR rounds. So to check Shiftry it needs to consistently click Strength Sap if it takes any damage, and to run Moonblast (which means no Safeguard/Sub) because otherwise Shiftry set up on it.





252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 169-200 (58 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



Jumpluff takes a lot of damage from Koff, so this means it needs to consistently use Strength Sap not to lose to Shiftry. Also it can still lose to SD Shiftry if it SD on the Strength Sap and then win the Sucker/Koff 50/50.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 253-300 (86.9 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Encore Jumpluff is however pretty safe against Shiftry, but if the Shiftry teams has a Pokemon with low Attack (Bronzor or Fantom) or a Sap Sipper user (Bouff or Zeb), Jumpluff is unable to deal with Shiftry on the long run since its recovery will be easily blocked.





While Hakamo-o takes only little damage from Shiftry, it doesn't OHKO with Drain Punch and loses its Eviolite making it far less reliable to check anything else. Also note that Hakamo-o needs Rest-Talk to be able to deal with Shiftry in the long run, because it gets easily worn down once its Evio gets removed by Shiftry. (Also Flyinium Z demolishes it, but that's the point of a lure)





Similar to Hakamo-o at the difference that it always OHKOes Shiftry, but once its Evio is Knocked off:

4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machoke: 379-447 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns 4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 175-207 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Silvally-Fighting: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Dark: 142-168 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth RockIf Silvally takes a Leaf Storm from Shiftry, he becomes unable in the future to take a Sucker Punch at +2. Even Silvally's most bulky spreads lose after chip damage.4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Combusken: 125-148 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 103-121 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- 29.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 95-113 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth RockCombusken isn't a Shiftry check. It can only switch in once to any Shiftry move and is forced to use Protect because it is slower than Shiftry. Also note that once you took a Leaf Storm from Shiftry, you're in range of Sucker Punch i.e. if Combusken switch in onto Leaf Storm it loses to Shiftry (bar incredibly well played Sucker mindgame).4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recoveryMawile is quickly worn down by Shiftry's Leaf Storm and is forced to use (and run) Pain Split if it wants to be able to check Shiftry latter in the game. Also Mawile needs to run Play Rough to directly threaten Shiftry. So Mawile to be able to consistently check Shiftry needs to run 2 moves when it already has a big 4mss with Knock Off/Seismic Toss/Super Fang/Toxic/Taunt.+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellossom: 263-309 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of SpikesGreat Shiftry check that loses to it after 2 SR rounds. So to check Shiftry it needs to consistently click Strength Sap if it takes any damage, and to run Moonblast (which means no Safeguard/Sub) because otherwise Shiftry set up on it.252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 169-200 (58 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth RockJumpluff takes a lot of damage from Koff, so this means it needs to consistently use Strength Sap not to lose to Shiftry. Also it can still lose to SD Shiftry if it SD on the Strength Sap and then win the Sucker/Koff 50/50.+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 253-300 (86.9 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKOEncore Jumpluff is however pretty safe against Shiftry, but if the Shiftry teams has a Pokemon with low Attack (Bronzor or Fantom) or a Sap Sipper user (Bouff or Zeb), Jumpluff is unable to deal with Shiftry on the long run since its recovery will be easily blocked.While Hakamo-o takes only little damage from Shiftry, it doesn't OHKO with Drain Punch and loses its Eviolite making it far less reliable to check anything else. Also note that Hakamo-o needs Rest-Talk to be able to deal with Shiftry in the long run, because it gets easily worn down once its Evio gets removed by Shiftry. (Also Flyinium Z demolishes it, but that's the point of a lure)Similar to Hakamo-o at the difference that it always OHKOes Shiftry, but once its Evio is Knocked off:4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machoke: 379-447 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Pokemon that needs to run a Sub / hold a Z-Crystal

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 169-200 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



Wow, incredible Shiftry check that can only come once if it doesn't burn with Flame Body. Typical scenario is: Rapidash takes 90% from SR+Koff, Shiftry switches out on the Morning Sun to something that threatens Rap, Rap switches out at 50% health and can't even come on Leaf Storm.





252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 101-121 (37.2 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Just like Bellossom, Leafeon needs to be at full health to handle Shiftry and doesn't appreciate to switch repetively into Koff since Leafeon is forced to Synthesis and then loses momentum.





252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



While it can always force out Shiftry with WoW, Rotom-Fan can only switch once into Shiftry after minimal chips and doesn't have recovery and is weak to SR. Also it's really suboptimal to give the Z-Crystal to a defensive mon. This deprives the team of a powerful nuke.





+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Altaria: 230-270 (64.9 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Just like Fantom, it's suboptimal to run a Z move on a defensive mon. But also Altaria can't burn Shiftry is forced to use its Z-move and therefore can lose to Sucker Punch after SR and some chips (like a Vally U-turn). Also Altaria is a total momentum drain and can only fit in few teams.





Running Substitute on fast Pokemon just to deal with Shiftry is a clear sign of Shiftry's unhealthyness. Simipour and Simisear already have a 4mss to deal with Mareanie, Altaria, Pyukumuku, Lickilicky, ... While Simisage and Raichu can afford to run Substitute without to much issues (even if they become far worse in every other mu), they can't use a Life Orb which they both appreciate (especially since the z-slot is often used to handle Shiftry) and struggles a lot more to accomplish wallbreak. Also running Substitute doesn't mean that Shiftry will lose to them, since it can predict the Sub and break it with Knock Off. 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 169-200 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth RockWow, incredible Shiftry check that can only come once if it doesn't burn with Flame Body. Typical scenario is: Rapidash takes 90% from SR+Koff, Shiftry switches out on the Morning Sun to something that threatens Rap, Rap switches out at 50% health and can't even come on Leaf Storm.252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 101-121 (37.2 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth RockJust like Bellossom, Leafeon needs to be at full health to handle Shiftry and doesn't appreciate to switch repetively into Koff since Leafeon is forced to Synthesis and then loses momentum.252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth RockWhile it can always force out Shiftry with WoW, Rotom-Fan can only switch once into Shiftry after minimal chips and doesn't have recovery and is weak to SR. Also it's really suboptimal to give the Z-Crystal to a defensive mon. This deprives the team of a powerful nuke.+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Altaria: 230-270 (64.9 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth RockJust like Fantom, it's suboptimal to run a Z move on a defensive mon. But also Altaria can't burn Shiftry is forced to use its Z-move and therefore can lose to Sucker Punch after SR and some chips (like a Vally U-turn). Also Altaria is a total momentum drain and can only fit in few teams.Running Substitute on fast Pokemon just to deal with Shiftry is a clear sign of Shiftry's unhealthyness. Simipour and Simisear already have a 4mss to deal with Mareanie, Altaria, Pyukumuku, Lickilicky, ... While Simisage and Raichu can afford to run Substitute without to much issues (even if they become far worse in every other mu), they can't use a Life Orb which they both appreciate (especially since the z-slot is often used to handle Shiftry) and struggles a lot more to accomplish wallbreak. Also running Substitute doesn't mean that Shiftry will lose to them, since it can predict the Sub and break it with Knock Off.

Unmon

Shiinotic completely walls Shiftry unless Z-Hurricane / Z-Bounce / Explosion. However Shiinotic is an extreme mediocre Pokemon on its own, largely outclassed by Gourgeist-XL in every non-Shiftry MU. It is a ground check that can lose to Golem, an electric check that loses to every Electric-type that isn't Scarf Electivire (and which has a small chance to 2hko after SR with Ice Punch). Sure it has access to 2 incredible moves in Spore and Strength Sap but they can both be easily punished by Bronzor, Bouffalant or Komala depending on the move. If Shiftry wasn't in the tier Shiinotic would be ranked at something like C-/UU.



I know these Vallies get some fans. While they are not bad, they are terrible in comparison to the other Vallies. Running one of them limits a lot the teambuilding options for the rest of the team, and as a result aren't Pokemon you can easily slap into your team.





I put both together because they have the same problem. They are Eviolite-reliant defensive Pokemon that checks Knock Off users and are SR weak. Vullaby on paper is an incredible switch in to both Shiftry and Exeggutor, until you realize it needs SpD invest to deal with Specs Eggy and Def invest to deal with Shiftry. But in reality both just use Roost every time they come onto the field because they take 25% from SR + 30% from a resisted move and therefore are completely momentum drain. I lost several time to Shiftry with Togetic or Vullaby because it Knocked out my Eviolite and I was unable to recover all the damage it took.



While it's not as bad as the two previous Pokemon, Monferno doesn't check much outside of Shiftry. While it used to check Top 10 Titan Abomasnow and Beartic, it now is only used to check Shiftry and the growing in popularity Glaceon, which makes it a poor choice as a defensive Pokemon and limits a lot teambuilding.



I thought that Zweilous was ranked for its incredible Band set, but no it is ranked for its SpD set...

Ok so while it can handle both Eggy and Shiftry, this mon incredibly sucks. It's very hard to put on your team a Dragon-type that loses to Combusken, and a defensive Pokemon that offers nothing (i.e. no hazard, no hazard removal, no momentum, no cleric). Zweilous relies on a 72% accuracy Dragon Tail to deal with Shiftry (which does less than half to Shiftry btw) and on RestTalk to consistently be at enough health.

Outside of one Kay team, SpD Zweilous has never seen uses due to being far to niche to use and I'd rather use SpD Chinchou for Swanna than this. Shiinotic completely walls Shiftry unless Z-Hurricane / Z-Bounce / Explosion. However Shiinotic is an extreme mediocre Pokemon on its own, largely outclassed by Gourgeist-XL in every non-Shiftry MU. It is a ground check that can lose to Golem, an electric check that loses to every Electric-type that isn't Scarf Electivire (and which has a small chance to 2hko after SR with Ice Punch). Sure it has access to 2 incredible moves in Spore and Strength Sap but they can both be easily punished by Bronzor, Bouffalant or Komala depending on the move. If Shiftry wasn't in the tier Shiinotic would be ranked at something like C-/UU.I know these Vallies get some fans. While they are not bad, they are terrible in comparison to the other Vallies. Running one of them limits a lot the teambuilding options for the rest of the team, and as a result aren't Pokemon you can easily slap into your team.I put both together because they have the same problem. They are Eviolite-reliant defensive Pokemon that checks Knock Off users and are SR weak. Vullaby on paper is an incredible switch in to both Shiftry and Exeggutor, until you realize it needs SpD invest to deal with Specs Eggy and Def invest to deal with Shiftry. But in reality both just use Roost every time they come onto the field because they take 25% from SR + 30% from a resisted move and therefore are completely momentum drain. I lost several time to Shiftry with Togetic or Vullaby because it Knocked out my Eviolite and I was unable to recover all the damage it took.While it's not as bad as the two previous Pokemon, Monferno doesn't check much outside of Shiftry. While it used to check Top 10 Titan Abomasnow and Beartic, it now is only used to check Shiftry and the growing in popularity Glaceon, which makes it a poor choice as a defensive Pokemon and limits a lot teambuilding.I thought that Zweilous was ranked for its incredible Band set, but no it is ranked for its SpD set...Ok so while it can handle both Eggy and Shiftry, this mon incredibly sucks. It's very hard to put on your team a Dragon-type that loses to Combusken, and a defensive Pokemon that offers nothing (i.e. no hazard, no hazard removal, no momentum, no cleric). Zweilous relies on a 72% accuracy Dragon Tail to deal with Shiftry (which does less than half to Shiftry btw) and on RestTalk to consistently be at enough health.Outside of one Kay team, SpD Zweilous has never seen uses due to being far to niche to use and I'd rather use SpD Chinchou for Swanna than this.

Ho3nConfirm3d said: Why is this wrong? The ZU metagame has multiple adaptations to check or deal with Shift in its own ways. Teambuilding needs to be centered around Shift, and that is totally okay and expected. Centralization will always be top heavy, and this includes teams needing to have specific answers to not only LO Shiftry, but mons like Scarf Vire, SD Firium Z Combusk, both phys and special Z move Swanna, and SR Golem. These are some of the most centralizing sets in the tier, and are arguably just as intrinsic to the ZU meta as LO Shift is. Scarf Vire just fits and competes above any other scarfer, Golem is an incredible rocker, and Combusk and Swanna are both ridiculous sweepers and potential WBs. Click to expand...

Ho3nConfirm3d said: My point is that centralization of all kinds is already happening in the ZU meta, showing that these adaptions are natural and not unwarranted. Mons like Metang now run Tpunch to be an all-round Swanna check, and playstyles like stall enjoy using the nearly unranked Hippopatas as a check to Vire that has immediate recovery. Not to mention that a ton of defensive mons run enough speed EVs to reach at least 190 so they can outspeed offensive Golem (Slash, Komala, Bouf, ect). This centralization is natural and not a horrible thing, as it allows for unique sets or mons to have a chance in the spotlight as their niche is established by these top tiers. Thus the varying levels Shift adaptation across the meta is perfectly acceptable and understood. Click to expand...

Ho3nConfirm3d said: I'll acknowledge the specifics about these MUs that pro-ban Shift players believe make it overwhelming. While these checks can work when healthy and full, Shift has the tools to weaken and threaten them consistently through the game. But this is the nature of the beast; it is a frail, middle-speed WB that has a conditional priority stab. There's not that much variability to how you handle Shift, a player only needs to suspect that its Mixed LO Shift to play well against it. If it is a bait set of some sort (NP sets, SD flyium Z sets, ect), then Shiftry is so much easier to deal with, as these sets are victim to a lack over overarching power and coverage that the mixed LO set has. Regardless, both building and playing around Shift has always been an aspect of the ZU meta that has never been broken, as players can expect the same set and find their ways around it in play. Click to expand...

Ho3nConfirm3d said: Lastly, Knock Off is apart of the game. Shiftry is the best abuser of it in ZU, and outside of Pawn it is also the only viable offensive STAB user of it. Dark types in all tiers have this luxury to abuse Knock Off, and I'd argue that in a tier filled with Eviolite users that a strong Knock Off user is totally needed. Stall has an incredible win rate, largely due to Evio tanks like Dusc and Hippo, and mons like Liki keeping their Lefties for protect. Having a dedicated Knock absorber that also checks Shift is a straight forward role compression that makes Shift relatively useless against stall in a lot of games. No need, then, to think that it's unhealthy for stall teams have Firium Alt / Silvally forms to check Shift when they need a Knock absorber anyways. Click to expand...

Let me criticize your checks.Now let's compare to Swanna the other S-rank in ZU:Mareanie is very good Pokemon on its own. It beats other threats such as Combusken, Muk, Vigoroth and Floatzel. It brings also a lot of utility thanks to Scald, Knock Off, Haze, and T-Spikes, while having reliable recovery in Recover+Regenerator.Silvally-Water used to be the most popular Silvally in the tier. While now it doesn't see much uses (mainly due to Shiftry), it can check several Pokemon such as our Fire/Water type as well as Glaceon. It also brings utility with U-turn and Defog.Pyukumuku only really fits on stall and some fat balance, but it can deal with every Swanna set as well as deal with 90% of our physical attackers.While these Pokemon are rather niche, they can deal with every Swanna set and have access to reliable recovery and Stealth Rock. But unlike the niche mon we use to deal with Shiftry, they can also deal with other threats. Cradily deals with most most Normal type and Ground type as well as a lot of Water-types. Whereas Corsola deals with almost every Normal-type and is extremely hard to wear down due to Regenerator.This may seems like a short list of Pokemon that can effectively deal with Swanna. However there are differences between both:1) Swanna doesn't force you to use dedicated set/unmon to deal with it.2) You can pressure Swanna with faster Pokemon because Swanna's Aqua Jet isn't stupidly strong unlike Shiftry's Sucker Punch, also while Swanna is fast there are several other Pokemon that are faster than it and don't fear Jet: all our Scarfers, Simipour, Simisage, Floatzel, Jumpluff, Purugly, Raichu, Furfrou and Zebstrika.3) While there are only few counter to every Swanna sets, each set has several viable checks. Z-Rain Dance fails to break most Special Walls (Licki, Clops, Kec, Muk) and Z-MM lacks Roost which means it can't switch in as much as other sets and struggles against several physical walls (Mawile, Metang, Granbull).4) Shiftry is far more dangerous before it boosts, and 1) doesn't need to set up to be an extremely dangerous wallbreaker 2) it gives Shiftry more set up opportunity, as it forces a lot of Pokemon out.The big difference between Shiftry and the other Pokemon that you mentionned is that it doesn't share reliable checks with the other Pokemon that you mentionned. Sandslash checks both Vire, Golem and Physical Busken; Gourg walls Vire and Golem; Mareanie walls Swanna and Busken; Vibrava walls Golem and Combusken; Cradily walls Golem, Vire and Swanna, ...Whereas you need a dedicated switch in to Shiftry, because as I stated above, it weakens to much all this checks (outside maybe PoisonVally and Shiinotic). You may ask me, then: "Why don't lose all the teams to Shiftry + any other potent wallbreaker?"The answer is that they lose most of the time, because Shiftry+Combusken and Shiftry+Swanna are deadly offensive core. But another way to deal with Shiftry+other dangerous wallbreaker is to pack 3 or 4 Pokemon that can pressure Shiftry and dissuade it from setting up. Most teams pack several of the checks I stated above, because one Shiftry check isn't enough. This isn't the case with the other Pokemon you stated above, if I have a Mareanie I don't need anything else for Combusken, and if I have a Sandslash I don't need anything else for Electivire. Whereas for Shiftry, unless you're running Shiinotic you can't say I'm fine with Shiftry.While I agree that T-Punch Metang is overcentralization (though Metang without T-Punch is a perfectly viable set), I disagree with the rest of the paragraph. Hippopotas isn't just a check to Evire, Hippopotas brings stall an Electric immunity with reliable recovery that isn't, unlike Vibrava, OHKOed by Electivire Ice Punch. Blocking Volt Switch is very important for stall, as Dusclops/Lugg/Lickilicky don't appreciate to get chipped by Volt Switch in range of wallbreakers such as the Simisage and Marowak. Hippopotas also provide stall SR and phazing, a check to the very threatening Raichu and Rampardos. About the 190 benchmark, it is fine adaptation just like the 260 benchmark for Shiftry. What isn't fine adaptation is running Unmons or sacrificing Z-slot and moveslot not to lose to Shiftry. Let's me explain myself. While ~100 EVs isn't nothing to overlook, it doesn't fundamentaly makes the Pokemon far worse in other mu. Running Shiinotic over Gourg makes your team far weaker to Bouffalant or Mala, running a Z-move on Altaria or Fantom removes the passive recovery from Leftovers that SR weak Pokemon need, running Substitute over Taunt on Simisear makes it lose to Pyukumuku and Mareanie. Whereas having 96 EVs less in Def doesn't make your Sandslash suddently unable to wall Electivire or Raichu. (Though losing 136 EVs in bulk makes Silvally-Water far less reliable at checking the Swann).Nothing to add to this, that's why in this post I'm only talking about mixed LO SD.Ok so here is were you I disagree the most with you, because you go against Smogon policy. If I understand well what you mean, you said that we need Shiftry because Eviolite mon are to bulky; i.e. Broken check Broken.This should never be an argument, if Shiftry gets banned and Dusclops, Hippopotas or Bronzor is to fat to break then we will suspect the Pokemon in question. Also Shiftry is far from the sole Knock Off users in the tier. 2 other Pokemon from S to B- use it as a STAB move: Kecleon and Pawniard. Moreover several offensive Pokemon uses it as coverage move: Komala, Marowak, Simisage, Simipour, Purugly, Simisear, Toucannon and Crustle. Furthermore several support/defensive Pokemon also uses it as a support move: Sandslash, Mareanie, Lickilicky, Servine, Shuckle and Mawile. Knock Off is part of the game, but Shiftry is the only Pokemon in ZU to have a so stupidly strong Knock Off. This is a Shiftry suspect, not a Knock Off one. If you believe that Knock Off is the only reason why we suspect Shiftry, you miss other broken aspect such as its stupidly high Atk paired with a powerful priority and a high enough SpA to dismantle its checks with Leaf Storm. And now, ZU needs a Knock Off absorber because Shiftry's Knock Off are to strong, otherwise it will be completely fine to only rely on something physically defensive such as Mawile or Torterra.To finish this, I'd just want to drop a replay from me on ladder. It shows how busted Shiftry can be under Sun, something nobody mentionned here: