Avexyli Profile Blog Joined April 2014 United States 686 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 01:37:42 #1 Introduction / How I think



It's saturday afternoon here in California. My family and I celebrated mothers day a week late, got a nice brunch and now I'm sitting at home with a semi food coma. I don't feel like mapping and there's nothing to watch on twitch, so I wanted to write up something and give myself something to do. So this will be my first blog post, on my thoughts on the Blizzard Mapping scene, what the journey has been like, what I've learned, what I'm still learning and my future goals.



I started mapmaking when I was really young, so young that I have the memories but not the dates. I used to draw maps for D&D with some old friends of mine during the elementary years, designing characters and taking inspiration from games like TES Morrowind, Gauntlet Dark Legacy, and WarCraft 2: Tides of Darkness. My favorite part was setting up scenarios, and remaking things that I saw from other forms of media - or my take on them. I had many Brood War maps that would take on the story after Brood War ended, involving finding Artanis - the post Hybrid Moon missions (unfortunately I was way off with where SC2 took off). I loved how gritty and "realistic" StarCraft: Brood War looked. When I had discovered UMS, as I was too young to even consider how to properly play melee, I was fascinated by the hundreds of new gametypes, bounds, tower defenses, defending minas tirith, crash gametypes and Halo maps. As a kid, this grew my imagination immensely (as would other games I would begin to play in the following years, such as WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos, and Star Wars: Jedi Knight III: Jedi Academy), and I would continue to reflect this expanding imagination with maps I would make.



I would spend years examining roleplaying maps for WarCraft III and StarCraft; Brood War, as their emphasis was equal between gameplay and aesthetic design. I would take the guise of Zoom_Zoom_Zoom eventually on WarCraft III, where I was known for a year or so amongst that community for making my renditions of Vuen's D&D map series as



Skip ahead to 2014, after failing my progress in the SC2 Editor during the beta (maps of which I found just a few months ago on a friends account - which I spent most of my matchmaking time in) of 2009/2010, I start my hand at making maps for StarCraft II. I had a bunch of private published works, where I showed people like FilterSC and CoberraC during the Ground Floor streams. The one thread I have from that period was only during my last few weeks in SC2 - a map called



So this is where I'll begin to highlight my primary issue with mapping, and many others, is either the issue of scale, proportions, and shapes. In mapping, there are general shapes that are created with the first three bases of a map. This is how I personally see it, and I'd be curious if anyone else visualizes it this way. But here's what I visualize;



In the case of KTV Echo, I imagine a triangle for the base layout, and a square U shape as the bases. The thickness of each line segment in the U is the proportion. Pretty simple.







Overgrowth would be similar, where the Triangle is one option (rarely we saw the forward base as a third, but it happened), and the Line is the other. The line created a golden arches or W shape, where this would be the proportion of the path.







For Detox, I see the triangle once again, but my path is a V or an acute L shape.









It's hard to explain, but this is how I think up different base layouts, or drastically change them and break them.



The Journey



When I moved into Starbow - as I took a high interest in a brood-war style game after hitting Diamond (or was about to, I can't remember if I was already diamond or if I was about to when starting Starbow). This was also the time I wanted to start trying Random, specifically Zerg as I had a decent understanding of HotS T and P already (I felt).



Anyway, I started my jump into mapping by porting over famous Brood War maps. The first one I ported was Monte Cristo. I spent quite a bit of time decorating it, but it was really fun. I used a mixture of a custom Shakuras tileset and Kaldir glacier doodads. When it finally came to testing, my proportion were horribly off. I had not realized that Starbow zoomed in their camera slightly and made everything smaller - so HUGE at 172x220. Even as an SC2 map it would've been huge, but it was there I could see that scaling was an issue. This would persist throughout my early mapping, with works such as Monty Hall, and the first rendition of Heartbreak Ridge (or Forest, at the time). But my aesthetic skills grew rapidly, as I became familiar with the hundreds of doodads available. I also learned of the Lighting module, what to touch, not to touch. This was my progress within about a week;

+ Show Spoiler +















I would, over time, start shaking off the proportion issues, with (in my opinion) my best and last works with Starbow, New Heartbreak Ridge and Blitz X,













I did stay with Starbow up until November of 2015, but my attention was admittedly taken by the Legacy beta, especially what would become the Aiur Temple tileset used by Ruins of Seras. All the new doodads along the cliffs (which I thought were part of the cliffs, originally), the stairs and ruined pillars had me quite intrigued as someone who loved the aesthetic part of mapping.



So Legacy launches, and I was quite happy to hear that Blizzard was going to kick back a bit on the "rules" that turned me away from SC2 mapping in the first place. I liked playing on Standard maps, but I found each game playing the same (at a lower league, I admit), quite boring.



Ulrena had my interest the most at first, yeah yeah scrap station whatever, but I was really liking all the air play going on and Fenn3r hated it. Directly from the maps description to Reddit, I wrote;



+ Show Spoiler + I was inspired by Fenn3r's dislike of the map Ulrena, where there are fast air travel distances, and a short rush distance choke. However, said map gives little time for players to react to certain builds (especially in ZvZ). With this map I achieved a similar effect with a close rush distance, but with an entirely other half of the map dedicated to a longer rush distance, and even a backdoor into the natural, but it takes a long time to reach the backdoor.



And thus what would be named "Lava Facility A" became Purified Forge - or to Fenn3r and his chat.. "The Penis Map."



[img[http://i.imgur.com/S5FVw68l.png[/img]



This map would eventually catch Rifkin of BaseTradeTV's eyes, where I would then be asked if the map could be used - yadda yadda, the map isn't very popular, it has some aesthetic issues (which I would later fix and the map would be liked a bit more, but still had problems).



The point that stood was that I wasn't afraid to break things. I would then, once a week, make at least one map that I was satisfied with - release it to Fenn3r first, then Reddit, TeamLiquid, and eventually later on I would also release to Twitter. My maps were always on each server - because the more the merrier.



And then we get to my 21st birthday, December 31st 2015. Well, the map - working name Forest Base was started on the 28th, but I finished it the morning of January 1st. This would be the map that would become Invader.







Invader's Invasion



Invader's concept was to take from Dash and Terminal's natural layout, which I always found quite interesting even if it wasn't really showcased. I wanted to use the layout in a macro map, where the natural was defendable but had risk to runbys or aggressive strategies in the mid or late game. The back rocks to the natural would ensure that Protoss and Terran players wouldn't have gotten reamed and had their walls be useless. We all know how this map worked out - but the idea was still one I was at least partially satisfied with. However, I won't be the first or last to admit this map had it's faults. One of these faults is the proportion issue. At the time of Invader - or Forest Base's creation, I was making a heavy switch to Zerg in order to better understand the race from a non Protoss or non Terran view. Unfortunately, this became the primary reason why the main base is so small - why there is no building space. Zerg don't need it nor focus on it, and thus the testing I gave the map didn't seem to bother me.



Over time map would (obviously) involve to become Invader, and then changed to become what it is today, Invader LE.



I think this is a nice time to address a question I receive very often regarding Invader,



Q: (Literally heard it on Dreamhack Tours today) Why is Invader's cross disabled?



A: So I've seen some people make assumptions on reddit or twitch chat, and generally they're incorrect. Originally, Invader did not have cross disabled, in fact nothing was disabled. I looked at Invader as a "new" Ruins of Seras. I wanted it to be the macro map of the year - or at least season, if it ever got that far. However, what it ended up turning into was Central Protocol's replacement. But before that, there was a small small period of time where many players (specifically in TvZ and ZvZ) were really not a fan of cross Ruins due to its rush distance. Trust me when I say the rush distance of Invader is crazy long, and you would never check cross first anyway, so why have it in? I did, honestly, expect that everything would be fine as Vert and Horiz only, as many of the problems with Central were not in Invader. I thought the third base that was closer to the middle wasn't actually that far away - a recollection to my scaling issue - because I still can look at the overview of Foresty Base and go "yea that looks fine." What I didn't consider was that Invader was 200x164. That's pretty big. By the time I submitted Invader to the Map Submission in February (which, honestly I had expected Detox, a map with much more professional play and feedback than Invader to make it), I had begun to change my opinion, but was unable to make changes to the map.



The above also answers the question; Why is the third so far away?



My thoughts on mapping - and the scene



(Ninja edit)



I find that I've been the target of the "newcomer" insults and assumptions that others faced before me. I've redacted names, but I've had many people message me things like this when I came out of the cave:



It's saturday afternoon here in California. My family and I celebrated mothers day a week late, got a nice brunch and now I'm sitting at home with a semi food coma. I don't feel like mapping and there's nothing to watch on twitch, so I wanted to write up something and give myself something to do. So this will be my first blog post, on my thoughts on the Blizzard Mapping scene, what the journey has been like, what I've learned, what I'm still learning and my future goals.I started mapmaking when I was really young, so young that I have the memories but not the dates. I used to draw maps for D&D with some old friends of mine during the elementary years, designing characters and taking inspiration from games like TES Morrowind, Gauntlet Dark Legacy, and WarCraft 2: Tides of Darkness. My favorite part was setting up scenarios, and remaking things that I saw from other forms of media - or my take on them. I had many Brood War maps that would take on the story after Brood War ended, involving finding Artanis - the post Hybrid Moon missions (unfortunately I was way off with where SC2 took off). I loved how gritty and "realistic" StarCraft: Brood War looked. When I had discovered UMS, as I was too young to even consider how to properly play melee, I was fascinated by the hundreds of new gametypes, bounds, tower defenses, defending minas tirith, crash gametypes and Halo maps. As a kid, this grew my imagination immensely (as would other games I would begin to play in the following years, such as WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos, and Star Wars: Jedi Knight III: Jedi Academy), and I would continue to reflect this expanding imagination with maps I would make.I would spend years examining roleplaying maps for WarCraft III and StarCraft; Brood War, as their emphasis was equal between gameplay and aesthetic design. I would take the guise of Zoom_Zoom_Zoom eventually on WarCraft III, where I was known for a year or so amongst that community for making my renditions of Vuen's D&D map series as Zoom's DnD . Where I would rarely touch the unit data and JASS, but rather change the flat terran into detailed zones for adventurers to travel inside and have DMs manipulate. I would also spend months creating Halo RP maps for Brood War - of which I only have one now; but I at least made the triggers for the BW maps. You can check out the map RP - Sanghelios here I also made a bunch of other maps, such as 34727H (I think that's what it was called) and Reach, but those are lost and anyone who might have had those files no longer do, months of work lost.Skip ahead to 2014, after failing my progress in the SC2 Editor during the beta (maps of which I found just a few months ago on a friends account - which I spent most of my matchmaking time in) of 2009/2010, I start my hand at making maps for StarCraft II. I had a bunch of private published works, where I showed people like FilterSC and CoberraC during the Ground Floor streams. The one thread I have from that period was only during my last few weeks in SC2 - a map called Ghost Ki (the start of the Devin Townsend naming process). Holy shit is this map awful. Skipping over that, I kept practicing, and just three days later I would pump out Immortal Ark . Yeah, that 90 second rush distance.So this is where I'll begin to highlight my primary issue with mapping, and many others, is either the issue of scale, proportions, and shapes. In mapping, there are general shapes that are created with the first three bases of a map. This is how I personally see it, and I'd be curious if anyone else visualizes it this way. But here's what I visualize;In the case of KTV Echo, I imagine a triangle for the base layout, and a square U shape as the bases. The thickness of each line segment in the U is the proportion. Pretty simple.Overgrowth would be similar, where the Triangle is one option (rarely we saw the forward base as a third, but it happened), and the Line is the other. The line created a golden arches or W shape, where this would be the proportion of the path.For Detox, I see the triangle once again, but my path is a V or an acute L shape.It's hard to explain, but this is how I think up different base layouts, or drastically change them and break them.When I moved into Starbow - as I took a high interest in a brood-war style game after hitting Diamond (or was about to, I can't remember if I was already diamond or if I was about to when starting Starbow). This was also the time I wanted to start trying Random, specifically Zerg as I had a decent understanding of HotS T and P already (I felt).Anyway, I started my jump into mapping by porting over famous Brood War maps. The first one I ported was Monte Cristo. I spent quite a bit of time decorating it, but it was really fun. I used a mixture of a custom Shakuras tileset and Kaldir glacier doodads. When it finally came to testing, my proportion were horribly off. I had not realized that Starbow zoomed in their camera slightly and made everything smaller - so Monte Cristo wasat 172x220. Even as an SC2 map it would've been huge, but it was there I could see that scaling was an issue. This would persist throughout my early mapping, with works such as Monty Hall, and the first rendition of Heartbreak Ridge (or Forest, at the time). But my aesthetic skills grew rapidly, as I became familiar with the hundreds of doodads available. I also learned of the Lighting module, what to touch, not to touch. This was my progress within about a week;I would, over time, start shaking off the proportion issues, with (in my opinion) my best and last works with Starbow, New Heartbreak Ridge and Blitz X,I did stay with Starbow up until November of 2015, but my attention was admittedly taken by the Legacy beta, especially what would become the Aiur Temple tileset used by Ruins of Seras. All the new doodads along the cliffs (which I thought were part of the cliffs, originally), the stairs and ruined pillars had me quite intrigued as someone who loved the aesthetic part of mapping.So Legacy launches, and I was quite happy to hear that Blizzard was going to kick back a bit on the "rules" that turned me away from SC2 mapping in the first place. I liked playing on Standard maps, but I found each game playing the same (at a lower league, I admit), quite boring.Ulrena had my interest the most at first, yeah yeah scrap station whatever, but I was really liking all the air play going on and Fenn3rit. Directly from the maps description to Reddit, I wrote;And thus what would be named "Lava Facility A" became Purified Forge - or to Fenn3r and his chat.. "The Penis Map."[img[http://i.imgur.com/S5FVw68l.png[/img]This map would eventually catch Rifkin of BaseTradeTV's eyes, where I would then be asked if the map could be used - yadda yadda, the map isn't very popular, it has some aesthetic issues (which I would later fix and the map would be liked a bit more, but still had problems).The point that stood was that I wasn't afraid to break things. I would then, once a week, make at least one map that I was satisfied with - release it to Fenn3r first, then Reddit, TeamLiquid, and eventually later on I would also release to Twitter. My maps were always on each server - because the more the merrier.And then we get to my 21st birthday, December 31st 2015. Well, the map - working name Forest Base was started on the 28th, but I finished it the morning of January 1st. This would be the map that would become Invader.Invader's concept was to take from Dash and Terminal's natural layout, which I always found quite interesting even if it wasn't really showcased. I wanted to use the layout in a macro map, where the natural was defendable but had risk to runbys or aggressive strategies in the mid or late game. The back rocks to the natural would ensure that Protoss and Terran players wouldn't have gotten reamed and had their walls be useless. We all know how this map worked out - but the idea was still one I was at least partially satisfied with. However, I won't be the first or last to admit this map had it's faults. One of these faults is the proportion issue. At the time of Invader - or Forest Base's creation, I was making a heavy switch to Zerg in order to better understand the race from a non Protoss or non Terran view. Unfortunately, this became thereason why the main base is so small - why there is no building space. Zerg don't need it nor focus on it, and thus the testing I gave the map didn't seem to bother me.Over time map would (obviously) involve to become Invader, and then changed to become what it is today, Invader LE.I think this is a nice time to address a question I receiveregarding Invader,(Literally heard it on Dreamhack Tours today) Why is Invader's cross disabled?So I've seen some people make assumptions on reddit or twitch chat, and generally they're incorrect. Originally, Invader did not have cross disabled, in fact nothing was disabled. I looked at Invader as a "new" Ruins of Seras. I wanted it to be the macro map of the year - or at least season, if it ever got that far. However, what it ended up turning into was Central Protocol's replacement. But before that, there was a small small period of time where many players (specifically in TvZ and ZvZ) were really not a fan of cross Ruins due to its rush distance. Trust me when I say the rush distance of Invader is crazy long, and you would never check cross first anyway, so why have it in? I did, honestly, expect that everything would be fine as Vert and Horiz only, as many of the problems with Central were not in Invader. I thought the third base that was closer to the middle wasn't actually that far away - a recollection to my scaling issue - because I still can look at the overview of Foresty Base and go "yea that looks fine." What I didn't consider was that Invader was 200x164. That's pretty big. By the time I submitted Invader to the Map Submission in February (which, honestly I had expected Detox, a map with much more professional play and feedback than Invader to make it), I had begun to change my opinion, but was unable to make changes to the map.The above also answers the question; Why is the third so far away?(Ninja edit)I find that I've been the target of the "newcomer" insults and assumptions that others faced before me. I've redacted names, but I've had many people message me things like this when I came out of the cave: Was in the map cave and got ostracized and hated on majorly. There was such massive drama in there all the time, people hating me for no reason, especially when me and 2 others started a new map team (galaxy, defunct now because the guy who started it had real life stuff). How dare we try to start a new team when we weren't the best mapmakers in the world! Also there was an old boys circlejerk with the site sc2melee.net (site where all maps were posted and rated, there was some ratings manipulation).



I found that this mentality is what actually plagues the map scene ontop of the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn. There are no ways to jump from Ghost Ki to Detox. I just worked really hard and figured out what maps had what features, why they worked or why they didn't. Even copying maps and reskinning (cough, Containment) helped me learn.



I'm not very happy that there aren't many opportunities for new people to come into the SC2 custom content scene, from a Blizzard perspective with the faulty Aracde system compared to the SCBW and Wc3 custom lobbys, and from an old boys club attitude that websites like TeamLiquid have.



What I've learned / What I think / Closer



I grow faster when I make maps, rather than worry about the styles and processes of other mapmakers. They all do things differently than I do, and often I can't see their thought process work out. They're making different maps than I, and often maps that I don't find very interesting. I won't name any maps or mapmakers, but generally I don't see eye to eye or mind to mind with how their maps work out. Granted, this does not apply to everyone.



I don't have to appeal to TeamLiquid. I don't have to make maps that TeamLiquid likes. I don't have to make maps that will win the TLMC. I will make maps that I find fun, that others find fun.



Proportion and Shapes are everything. Styles grow naturally - I think I have a style. Can I describe it? No. But I know I have one.



I'm still learning how to make maps in proper proportions. I stopped making maps above 148x148, I stopped extending map bounds, I stopped pushing out when I realize I can squish in. I'm still learning how to make the most of out a map, and keep deadspace on the outside.



Consistency in mapping is just as important in the map scene as it is in marketing. There's a reason I caught the eye of organizations like BaseTrade, people like mYi.Pengwin (who are honestly some of the friendliest people I've met and I'm very thankful to even be able to speak to directly). I work hard for my maps, it's what I love to do. I don't need to make money. But I want to do something with my life that isn't jerking off in a college dorm room to the sorrows of not making a name for myself like everyone else supposedly is (even if they aren't).



I'm so fucking happy that I can proudly say that I've done something with the StarCraft community. I helped the Starbow community, developing my own design philosophies in RTS, exposing myself to group communication and differing ideas outside of a business, and stirring conversation inside that community. I'm able to talk to some of the people who just 7 months ago I thought were idols of the StarCraft II community, that I would never be able to even speak to directly. I never expected to become even partially acquainted with Nathanias, Fenn3r, Rifkin, Zombiegrub, Feadragon, Psione or TotalBiscuit (though i'm not sure if that one counts), I never expected to be recognized ON LADDER for my work.



So, as a closer. If you are someone inspiring to push yourself out into a scene or any kind, work for it, but work for it doing what you really love. Push it into peoples faces in smaller venues. I started with a single twitch chat. Every day, I posted in Fenn3r's chat while he's giving a Terran some delicious worm on Bridgehead. I would frequently ask for feedback, and once I was confident, I published it, I thanked those people.



Make contact, be yourself, your creation is a direct portal into who you are, how you think and what you feel. This applies to any form of art be it music, drawing, mapping, writing, or whatever you do.



Thanks for reading.



AVEX.









I found that this mentality is what actually plagues the map scene ontop of the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn. There are no ways to jump from Ghost Ki to Detox. I just worked really hard and figured out what maps had what features, why they worked or why they didn't. Even copying maps and reskinning (cough, Containment) helped me learn.I'm not very happy that there aren't many opportunities for new people to come into the SC2 custom content scene, from a Blizzard perspective with the faulty Aracde system compared to the SCBW and Wc3 custom lobbys, and from an old boys club attitude that websites like TeamLiquid have.I grow faster when I make maps, rather than worry about the styles and processes of other mapmakers. They all do things differently than I do, and often I can't see their thought process work out. They're making different maps than I, and often maps that I don't find very interesting. I won't name any maps or mapmakers, but generally I don't see eye to eye or mind to mind with how their maps work out. Granted, this does not apply to everyone.I don't have to appeal to TeamLiquid. I don't have to make maps that TeamLiquid likes. I don't have to make maps that will win the TLMC. I will make maps that I find fun, that others find fun.Proportion and Shapes are everything. Styles grow naturally - I think I have a style. Can I describe it? No. But I know I have one.I'm still learning how to make maps in proper proportions. I stopped making maps above 148x148, I stopped extending map bounds, I stopped pushing out when I realize I can squish in. I'm still learning how to make the most of out a map, and keep deadspace on the outside.Consistency in mapping is just as important in the map scene as it is in marketing. There's a reason I caught the eye of organizations like BaseTrade, people like mYi.Pengwin (who are honestly some of the friendliest people I've met and I'm very thankful to even be able to speak to directly). I work hard for my maps, it's what I love to do. I don't need to make money. But I want to do something with my life that isn't jerking off in a college dorm room to the sorrows of not making a name for myself like everyone else supposedly is (even if they aren't).I'm so fucking happy that I can proudly say that I've done something with the StarCraft community. I helped the Starbow community, developing my own design philosophies in RTS, exposing myself to group communication and differing ideas outside of a business, and stirring conversation inside that community. I'm able to talk to some of the people who just 7 months ago I thought were idols of the StarCraft II community, that I would never be able to even speak to directly. I never expected to become even partially acquainted with Nathanias, Fenn3r, Rifkin, Zombiegrub, Feadragon, Psione or TotalBiscuit (though i'm not sure if that one counts), I never expected to be recognized ON LADDER for my work.So, as a closer. If you are someone inspiring to push yourself out into a scene or any kind,for it, but work for it doing what you really love. Push it into peoples faces in smaller venues. I started with a single twitch chat. Every day, I posted in Fenn3r's chat while he's giving a Terran some delicious worm on Bridgehead. I would frequently ask for feedback, and once I was confident, I published it, I thanked those people.Make contact, be yourself, your creation is a direct portal into who you are, how you think and what you feel. This applies to any form of art be it music, drawing, mapping, writing, or whatever you do.Thanks for reading.AVEX. AVEX - 1st place TLMC8 & 9 (and 3rd and 4th, respectively), 2nd place TLMC11, 3x Finalist of TLMC7 (5th), 3x Finalist of TLMC10 (5th)

ZigguratOfUr Profile Blog Joined April 2012 Iraq 16046 Posts #2



Also just wondering. Do people play differently against you on Invader than other maps? Nice blog.Also just wondering. Do people play differently against you on Invader than other maps? Maps I made recently: Nevermore: https://i.imgur.com/NiqR0Rj.jpg | Rubaiyat: https://i.imgur.com/XD3E3vd.jpg | Grand Canal: https://i.imgur.com/kNgyOCo.jpg

Avexyli Profile Blog Joined April 2014 United States 686 Posts #3 I don't think I'm at a rank to where I can tell the difference between someone specifically playing differently because it's me or the MMR I'm at. I've seen some weird shit on Invader, though. 'specially in Mirror Matches. AVEX - 1st place TLMC8 & 9 (and 3rd and 4th, respectively), 2nd place TLMC11, 3x Finalist of TLMC7 (5th), 3x Finalist of TLMC10 (5th)

monk Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 8468 Posts #4 Ever since I joined and Meavis left the cave, it's been pretty delightful, active, and pretty much only map talk. You're missing out. I have a feeling your negative impressions of the cave are based on a few vocal minorities. Moderator

Uvantak Profile Blog Joined June 2011 Uruguay 1380 Posts #5 On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you? @Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.

Avexyli Profile Blog Joined April 2014 United States 686 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 06:45:25 #6 On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, On May 15 2016 14:23 monk wrote:

Ever since I joined and Meavis left the cave, it's been pretty delightful, active, and pretty much only map talk. You're missing out. I have a feeling your negative impressions of the cave are based on a few vocal minorities.



It helps when you aren't the new guy and everyone takes you seriously. I feel like I've left a stain on my "rep" for the cave and don't really want to go back. I learn fine on my own and with the contacts I have. It helps when you aren't the new guy and everyone takes you seriously. I feel like I've left a stain on my "rep" for the cave and don't really want to go back. I learn fine on my own and with the contacts I have. AVEX - 1st place TLMC8 & 9 (and 3rd and 4th, respectively), 2nd place TLMC11, 3x Finalist of TLMC7 (5th), 3x Finalist of TLMC10 (5th)

Uvantak Profile Blog Joined June 2011 Uruguay 1380 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 07:15:47 #7 On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?

Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,

I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissing years out of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on Youtube?! Nice

way to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.



Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?



I'm very sad to see you behave like this. I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissingout of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on?! Niceway to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?I'm very sad to see you behave like this. @Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.

toplel Profile Joined April 2013 12 Posts #8 I'm very sad to see you behave like this.



Autism has that effect on people. Donate here to help people like Avex:





User was temp banned for this post. Autism has that effect on people. Donate here to help people like Avex: http://www.calautism.org/donate/ "xD" - Scrump 2013

Meavis Profile Blog Joined September 2011 Netherlands 1296 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 09:17:15 #9 On May 15 2016 09:47 Avexyli wrote:

There are no ways to jump from Ghost Ki to Detox. I just worked really hard and figured out what maps had what features, why they worked or why they didn't. Even copying maps and reskinning (cough, Containment) helped me learn.





saving this for



saving this for

What I've learned / What I think / Closer



I grow faster when I make maps, rather than worry about the styles and processes of other mapmakers. They all do things differently than I do, and often I can't see their thought process work out. They're making different maps than I, and often maps that I don't find very interesting. I won't name any maps or mapmakers, but generally I don't see eye to eye or mind to mind with how their maps work out. Granted, this does not apply to everyone.



I don't have to appeal to TeamLiquid. I don't have to make maps that TeamLiquid likes. I don't have to make maps that will win the TLMC. I will make maps that I find fun, that others find fun.



Proportion and Shapes are everything. Styles grow naturally - I think I have a style. Can I describe it? No. But I know I have one.



I'm still learning how to make maps in proper proportions. I stopped making maps above 148x148, I stopped extending map bounds, I stopped pushing out when I realize I can squish in. I'm still learning how to make the most of out a map, and keep deadspace on the outside.





Yes, getting into the mapmaking scene can be pretty tough if you don't know where to look for resources, but they're there to some extent.



The bigger problem lies in that it takes incredible effort to properly explain how various things in map design function, to the point where its almost as easy for someone to figure it out on their own.



Speaking of figuring things out solo, I kind of like the subtle and not so subtle design differences that come out of people figuring things out on their own, and building their own unqiue styles, it also adds to the diversity that is nice to have in map pools.



And as a last thing, I'm getting subtle hints from your writing that you think we don't put much effort into what we do, but I guarantee you, that just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there.



On May 15 2016 16:14 Uvantak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?

Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,

I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissing years out of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on Youtube?! Nice

way to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.



Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?



I'm very sad to see you behave like this. I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissingout of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on?! Niceway to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?I'm very sad to see you behave like this.



No, remember I don't do anything in this scene but being cancerous and toxic : ^ ) Yes, getting into the mapmaking scene can be pretty tough if you don't know where to look for resources, but they're there to some extent.The bigger problem lies in that it takes incredible effort to properly explain how various things in map design function, to the point where its almost as easy for someone to figure it out on their own.Speaking of figuring things out solo, I kind of like the subtle and not so subtle design differences that come out of people figuring things out on their own, and building their own unqiue styles, it also adds to the diversity that is nice to have in map pools.And as a last thing, I'm getting subtle hints from your writing that you think we don't put much effort into what we do, but I guarantee you, that just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there.No, remember I don't do anything in this scene but being cancerous and toxic : ^ ) Ex organizer of Starcraft Mapmaking Association, currently retired.

eTcetRa Profile Joined November 2010 Australia 819 Posts #10 On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you? Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,



So someone gives you a more than adequate example of guides the map-making community has made and you automatically shit all over their validity because they are not on youtube or twitch? Never mind that these "old boys" you have been talking shit about took the time to create these. And you want to be taken seriously?



I don't think i have spoken poorly of you ever, even in the cave so I'm probably gonna have to pop that cherry and repeat what Kantuva has said.



You are not serious, are you?



https://www.twitch.tv/meavissc2/v/40706600



So someone gives you a more than adequate example of guides the map-making community has made and you automatically shit all over their validity because they are not on youtube or twitch? Never mind that theseyou have been talking shit about took the time to create these. And you want to be taken seriously?I don't think i have spoken poorly of you ever, even in the cave so I'm probably gonna have to pop that cherry and repeat what Kantuva has said.



Retired Mapmaker™

-NegativeZero- Profile Joined August 2011 United States 2101 Posts #11 i remember learning the basics of the editor from a tutorial by ironmansc, it just happened to be one of the first youtube search results. even now, if you search "sc2 melee map tutorial" there are a few decent beginner level tutorials that show up, more than enough to get started.



anything beyond that probably involves a lot of individual experimentation, although of course the guides linked on TL are extremely helpful as well. but at that point if you're still really interested in mapmaking you should be willing to read a bunch of written guides. i maek map

Barrin Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 4998 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 10:57:42 #12 As someone who spends too much time focusing on other's maps and not enough on my own, I can say that you are by far the most improved mapmaker since I sorta left the scene (around when you picked up). edit: And you did it without much help; respect.



UMS scene in BW was so incredibly awesome; those were definitely the days. I too was too young to really appreciate melee at the time. Your first SC2 maps are better than mine, lol >.<



I look at how to change the first 3-base layout before starting a map pretty much the way you describe. I really just won't start a map until I have something interesting. I've had some good feedback on my first map in 3 years where I had a lot of time to think about it: [http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/509038-2-xelnaga-mountain]Xel'Naga Mountain[/url]. What do you think of the base layout there?



---



SC2melee.net definitely suffered from having too few people voting, which I guess I didn't help because I didn't really use it much. Furthermore..



The mapmaking scene has a serious bias problem. In my experience maps that most people dislike really just aren't good, but often there are maps that get rated well not because the map itself is good but rather because of who made the map. Most who benefit from this have even joked about it (I literally just saw one in the cave) -- it is 100% a thing.



Branding is incredibly important. Protecting the status of your brand (which of course could just be your handle) is part of this, and unfortunately some do more than just promote their own (or just lack a bit of class). People are generally sincere when giving constructive criticism (they don't want to be seen giving bad advice), but don't expect much praise from the established. I think of this whole phenomena as an "economy of reputations" (hell you can watch it in this very thread). I can't pretend that I am wholly removed from it, tbh. Exhibit A:



Meavis, fuck off. Seriously. This isn't the first time you've driven away useful talent from the cave. Please change your attitude if you ever come back.



Avex, monk is right. Discussion has been much better since he has left. Any mapmaker as serious as you is more than welcome in the cave, save they don't make others feel unwelcome *cough*. Anyone in the cave now who might not want you there is only wanting to suppress rival brands. I hope you don't let them do that. Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"

Barrin Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 4998 Posts #13 There's really very little out there that can teach you how to use the editor faster than just experimenting -- for me that was the entire purpose of my first map.



Learning how to create a good map? Again, trial/error/feedback is probably most efficient for improvement at the moment, despite all that's been written. Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"

Avexyli Profile Blog Joined April 2014 United States 686 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 17:01:32 #14 On May 15 2016 16:14 Uvantak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?

Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,

I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissing years out of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on Youtube?! Nice

way to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.



Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?



I'm very sad to see you behave like this. I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissingout of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on?! Niceway to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?I'm very sad to see you behave like this.



I never said I was discrediting the information that was given. The information is legitimate in all means and I did use some of those guides.



However, there has been countless amounts of data supporting that humans all have different preferences to a style of learning. You have visual learners, those who enjoy watch someone else do it, you have those who are auditory, those who like to listen as such through lecture, audi-visual, a combination of both, such as a video, those who learn by reading and writing such as taking notes and processing the information, as well as kinesthetic or learning by doing.



There's also evidence to support this style of learning:







Note how active the latter three are. This is why live commentary, stream discussion, etc is so effective.



I never said I was discrediting the information that was given. The information is legitimate in all means and I did use some of those guides.However, there has been countless amounts of data supporting that humans all have different preferences to a style of learning. You have visual learners, those who enjoy watch someone else do it, you have those who are auditory, those who like to listen as such through lecture, audi-visual, a combination of both, such as a video, those who learn by reading and writing such as taking notes and processing the information, as well as kinesthetic or learning by doing.There's also evidence to support this style of learning:Note how active the latter three are. This is why live commentary, stream discussion, etc is so effective. Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?



I don't dislike Meavis. I really have nothing against him aside that we differ on how we think. I don't dislike you either, or IeZ or anyone else. I just didn't like the behavior I receive(d). You can ask Albatross, I'm not that kind of person.



On May 15 2016 19:02 eTcetRa wrote:

So someone gives you a more than adequate example of guides the map-making community has made and you automatically shit all over their validity because they are not on youtube or twitch? Never mind that these "old boys" you have been talking shit about took the time to create these. And you want to be taken seriously?



I don't think i have spoken poorly of you ever, even in the cave so I'm probably gonna have to pop that cherry and repeat what Kantuva has said.



You are not serious, are you?

+ Show Spoiler +

https://www.twitch.tv/meavissc2/v/40706600



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXWwqi17oVw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDBqGyP90ns

So someone gives you a more than adequate example of guides the map-making community has made and you automatically shit all over their validity because they are not on youtube or twitch? Never mind that theseyou have been talking shit about took the time to create these. And you want to be taken seriously?I don't think i have spoken poorly of you ever, even in the cave so I'm probably gonna have to pop that cherry and repeat what Kantuva has said.



+



I don't dislike Meavis. I really have nothing against him aside that we differ on how we think. I don't dislike you either, or IeZ or anyone else. I just didn't like the behavior I receive(d). You can ask Albatross, I'm not that kind of person. but at that point if you're still really interested in mapmaking you should be willing to read a bunch of written guides.



Just because I have a bad taste of the sense of elitism I received from my months in the map cave doesn't mean I apply it to guides and information. When I was talking in the cave - as I've mentioned before - no one was talking about maps, rarely my questions were answered. Too busy were many jerking off about DotA2. And I was never even directed to some of these guides - I had no idea they existed, and I highly doubt newer mappers do as well.



Also, since we're specifically talking about video guides now, I did look up some of these guides. But similarly to how I was using youtube as guides to figuring out Zerg or higher level T and P, I did begin to subconsciously ignore videos of a certain age for the same reasons one would for build order guides. I saw the changes in mapping between projects like Ohana, Daybreak and Nimbus and Overgrowth. I expected that guides from 2+ years ago would be outdated and not have the proper statistics that I would need (for those of you in the cave, you should clearly remember that I asked - multiple times - what the average distances were, the surface area of the main, nat, third, etc). And you know what I always got in response? "Open the editor and do it yourself." Not even a link to these guides. So the cave itself too dismissed the videos - so why should I use them if this cave of such excellent mapmakers won't even reference that?



Just because I have a bad taste of the sense of elitism I received from my months in the map cave doesn't mean I apply it to guides and information. When I was talking in the cave - as I've mentioned before -was talking about maps, rarely my questions were answered. Too busy were many jerking off about DotA2. And I was never even directed to some of these guides - I had no idea they existed, and I highly doubt newer mappers do as well.Also, since we're specifically talking about video guides now, I did look up some of these guides. But similarly to how I was using youtube as guides to figuring out Zerg or higher level T and P, I did begin to subconsciously ignore videos of a certain age for the same reasons one would for build order guides. I saw the changes in mapping between projects like Ohana, Daybreak and Nimbus and Overgrowth. I expected that guides from 2+ years ago would be outdated and not have the proper statistics that I would need (for those of you in the cave, you should clearly remember that I asked - multiple times - what the average distances were, the surface area of the main, nat, third, etc). And you know what I always got in response? "Open the editor and do it yourself." Not even a link to these guides. So the cave itself too dismissed the videos - so why should I use them if this cave of such excellent mapmakers won't even reference that? UMS scene in BW was so incredibly awesome; those were definitely the days. I too was too young to really appreciate melee at the time. Your first SC2 maps are better than mine, lol >.<



I was too young as well. But I did get to see the features that came out of maps that would be on iccup, such as the custom ramps in the RP maps I either made or saw - such as Feyvern or Lathirion



I was too young as well. But I did get to see the features that came out of maps that would be on iccup, such as the custom ramps in the RP maps I either made or saw - such as Feyvern or Lathirion In my experience maps that most people dislike really just aren't good, but often there are maps that get rated well not because the map itself is good but rather because of who made the map I noticed this during the Power Rank.



I noticed this during the Power Rank. People are generally sincere when giving constructive criticism (they don't want to be seen giving bad advice), but don't expect much praise from the established. I think of this whole phenomena as an "economy of reputations" (hell you can watch it in this very thread). I can't pretend that I am wholly removed from it, tbh



This is why I stopped going to other mappers and instead started asking players directly what they wanted and then melding answers together to create maps I thought would be fun for them to play and me to make. Like I tried to outline here:



This is why I stopped going to other mappers and instead started asking players directly what they wanted and then melding answers together to create maps I thought would be fun for them to play and me to make. Like I tried to outline here: I don't have to appeal to TeamLiquid. I don't have to make maps that TeamLiquid likes. I don't have to make maps that will win the TLMC. I will make maps that I find fun, that others find fun .



Sometimes, TL doesn't have the best mindset or decisions - and fair in contrast nor do the players or community. But since there's such a heavy abundance of using TL and praising TL as this Jerusalem of all things melee mapping, I figured that it wouldn't hurt if a different approach was made. And it doesn't seem to be hurting.







Sometimes, TL doesn't have the best mindset or decisions - and fair in contrast nor do the players or community. But since there's such a heavy abundance of using TL and praising TL as this Jerusalem of all things melee mapping, I figured that it wouldn't hurt if a different approach was made. And it doesn't seem to be hurting. AVEX - 1st place TLMC8 & 9 (and 3rd and 4th, respectively), 2nd place TLMC11, 3x Finalist of TLMC7 (5th), 3x Finalist of TLMC10 (5th)

Meavis Profile Blog Joined September 2011 Netherlands 1296 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-15 17:58:58 #15 On May 16 2016 02:01 Avexyli wrote:

Show nested quote +

In my experience maps that most people dislike really just aren't good, but often there are maps that get rated well not because the map itself is good but rather because of who made the map

I noticed this during the Power Rank.



There may have been some slight bias, but it wasn't that present.

taking the last season top 10 for example:

1. cave

2. cave

3. cave

4. non

5. cave

6. non

7. non

8. cave

9.non

10. non



as you can see the top 10 had a healthy mix of both, and it continued like that all the way down.

although you can see the slight bias in that cave members did slightly better on average



if you need a refresher, heres the page:





Show nested quote +

People are generally sincere when giving constructive criticism (they don't want to be seen giving bad advice), but don't expect much praise from the established. I think of this whole phenomena as an "economy of reputations" (hell you can watch it in this very thread). I can't pretend that I am wholly removed from it, tbh



This is why I stopped going to other mappers and instead started asking players directly what they wanted and then melding answers together to create maps I thought would be fun for them to play and me to make. Like I tried to outline here:



Show nested quote +

I don't have to appeal to TeamLiquid. I don't have to make maps that TeamLiquid likes. I don't have to make maps that will win the TLMC. I will make maps that I find fun, that others find fun



Sometimes, TL doesn't have the best mindset or decisions - and fair in contrast nor do the players or community. But since there's such a heavy abundance of using TL and praising TL as this Jerusalem of all things melee mapping, I figured that it wouldn't hurt if a different approach was made. And it doesn't seem to be hurting.



This is why I stopped going to other mappers and instead started asking players directly what they wanted and then melding answers together to create maps I thought would be fun for them to play and me to make. Like I tried to outline here:Sometimes, TL doesn't have the best mindset or decisions - and fair in contrast nor do the players or community. But since there's such a heavy abundance of using TL and praising TL as this Jerusalem of all things melee mapping, I figured that it wouldn't hurt if a different approach was made. And it doesn't seem to be hurting.



What I can't make out of this, is what or who you think TL is.



Face it, you're pretty much the only mapper that has the resources you have available, everyone else is trying their hardest to place well in a TLMC, because it's absolutely everything they have, there are no other routes.



I really hope you understand that. There may have been some slight bias, but it wasn't that present.taking the last season top 10 for example:1. cave2. cave3. cave4. non5. cave6. non7. non8. cave9.non10. nonas you can see the top 10 had a healthy mix of both, and it continued like that all the way down.although you can see the slight bias in that cave members did slightly better on averageif you need a refresher, heres the page: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uOAuth-Ef_fhCuFbV2gx3mhgWVAyjZGjP0lMxAXP7CQ/edit?usp=sharing What I can't make out of this, is what or who you think TL is.Face it, you're pretty much the only mapper that has the resources you have available, everyone else is trying their hardest to place well in a TLMC, because it's absolutelythey have, there are no other routes.I really hope you understand that. Ex organizer of Starcraft Mapmaking Association, currently retired.

Avexyli Profile Blog Joined April 2014 United States 686 Posts #16 I dunno why I'm the only mapper when everyone I talk to seems to be pretty content with giving even the simplest of opinions. Literally just opening up a stream that I often talk on and posting my link with "how do you feel about this third" - even if it's a one sentence response, it generally has meaning behind it and it gives insight into what the player wants ontop of how I watch them play.



I, and others, feel that TL has this sense of "we're always right and you should listen to us" - and granted TL has a great deal of information it also has a bunch of egos built upon eachother and pockets of people - you know this Meavis, we talked about this on skype before. AVEX - 1st place TLMC8 & 9 (and 3rd and 4th, respectively), 2nd place TLMC11, 3x Finalist of TLMC7 (5th), 3x Finalist of TLMC10 (5th)

Ej_ Profile Blog Joined January 2013 47288 Posts #17 On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?

. Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,

quote of the year quote of the year "Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya

Uvantak Profile Blog Joined June 2011 Uruguay 1380 Posts #18 On May 16 2016 02:01 Avexyli wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 16:14 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?

Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,

I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissing years out of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on Youtube?! Nice

way to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.



Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?



I'm very sad to see you behave like this. I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissingout of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on?! Niceway to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?I'm very sad to see you behave like this.



I never said I was discrediting the information that was given. The information is legitimate in all means and I did use some of those guides.



However, there has been countless amounts of data supporting that humans all have different preferences to a style of learning. You have visual learners, those who enjoy watch someone else do it, you have those who are auditory, those who like to listen as such through lecture, audi-visual, a combination of both, such as a video, those who learn by reading and writing such as taking notes and processing the information, as well as kinesthetic or learning by doing.



There's also evidence to support this style of learning:



+ Show Spoiler +



Note how active the latter three are. This is why live commentary, stream discussion, etc is so effective. I never said I was discrediting the information that was given. The information is legitimate in all means and I did use some of those guides.However, there has been countless amounts of data supporting that humans all have different preferences to a style of learning. You have visual learners, those who enjoy watch someone else do it, you have those who are auditory, those who like to listen as such through lecture, audi-visual, a combination of both, such as a video, those who learn by reading and writing such as taking notes and processing the information, as well as kinesthetic or learning by doing.There's also evidence to support this style of learning:Note how active the latter three are. This is why live commentary, stream discussion, etc is so effective.

Wait, you want people to take that extra time out of their lives, which they already are doing so because they are making tutorials for other people and you are saying that their work is simply not enough and that they need to do it in video form? Do you realize what you are talking about? The great majority of these tutorials are not only made by people who at the time had nor real background on streaming because streaming if you are not aware of it, was really hard at the time, and it required a considerable amount of time to set up and get comfortable doing it, which would have taken time from the other things said people were doing, like you know actually making maps, practicing SC or socializing, jobs or college?



Again to me it seems that you are out of reality asking other people to go the extra mile just because you don't like to read, of course it also goes without mention that you haven't even addressed the Video tutorials that Meavis made because those again, apparently don't fit your mental narrative.



Avex, I'm sorry, but we are not here to hold your hand and take hours upon hours of our lives to teach every little thing to you, not because we are mean people, but because most of the time we are simply not able to, we have things to do, we are not paid for this, therefore we need to find another way to get an income to live. If you are able to spend all your day making maps, that's cool, but I and the great majority of the guys can't, therefore the time we can spend on it has to be focused well.



You know how sometimes you would ask me stuff on Skype and it would take me time, even sometimes a day to answer? Well that's not because I'm a mean guy that wants you to not learn anything, but because I have got other shit to do. Yet time and time again I tried my best to answer, even if I knew that your answer would be a "Why does the SC engine needs to be so backwards and buggy?", or something that had already been responded hundreds of times over in the Simple Questions Thread or Mapster.



Please, put your feet back on the ground, because as it stands you are being a entitled asshole asking for other people to put effort into things for you and masquerading them as if they were for the common good. We are doing what we can to improve things, just like we always have. Now if that's not enough for you, well, time to start spending your own time creating tutorials instead of bitching about that there are not enough Youtube videos.



Sorry for the rant on your own blog, but come on man, don't behave like a manchild. Wait, you want people to take that extra time out of their lives, which they already are doing so because they are making tutorials for other people and you are saying that their work is simply not enough and that they need to do it in video form? Do you realize what you are talking about? The great majority of these tutorials are not only made by people who at the time had nor real background on streaming because streaming if you are not aware of it, wasat the time, and it required a considerable amount of time to set up and get comfortable doing it, which would have taken time from the other things said people were doing, like you know actually making maps, practicing SC or socializing, jobs or college?Again to me it seems that you are out of reality asking other people to go the extra mile just because you, of course it also goes without mention that you haven't even addressed the Video tutorials that Meavis made because those again, apparently don't fit your mental narrative.Avex, I'm sorry, but we are not here to hold your hand and take hours upon hours of our lives to teach every little thing to you, not because we are mean people, but because most of the time we are simply, we have things to do, we are not paid for this, therefore we need to find another way to get an income to live. If you are able to spend all your day making maps, that's cool, but I and the great majority of the guys can't, therefore the time we can spend on it has to be focused well.You know how sometimes you would ask me stuff on Skype and it would take me time, even sometimes a day to answer? Well that's not because I'm a mean guy that wants you to not learn anything, but because. Yet time and time again I tried my best to answer, even if I knew that your answer would be a, or something that had already been responded hundreds of times over in the Simple Questions Thread or Mapster.Please, put your feet back on the ground, because as it stands you are being a entitled asshole asking for other people to put effort into things forand masquerading them as if they were for the common good. We are doing what we can to improve things, just like we always have. Now if that's not enough for you, well, time to start spending your own time creating tutorials instead of bitching about that there are not enough Youtube videos.Sorry for the rant on your own blog, but come on man, don't behave like a manchild. @Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.

Barrin Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 4998 Posts #19 I learned about the multiple learner types more than once in school. I'm acutely aware that I am a more visual/writing learner; I am very bad at retaining auditory information. I've done more mapmaking teaching than I have any right to (not that I'll stop), but in my experience it is a great way to learn. Cunningham's law might even work nowadays.



I didn't make it clear that the main reason I want you in the cave is so that you can share what you've learned with us. Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"

Avexyli Profile Blog Joined April 2014 United States 686 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-16 20:55:36 #20 On May 16 2016 08:02 Uvantak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 16 2016 02:01 Avexyli wrote:

On May 15 2016 16:14 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 15:44 Avexyli wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.



Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV, you aren't serious, are you?

Yeah, because people definitely want to read days worth of stuff.Text-based guides are really outdated in the age of YouTube and Twitch. Come on KTV,

I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissing years out of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on Youtube?! Nice

way to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.



Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?



I'm very sad to see you behave like this. I'm sorry, my mind simply cannot bear with this, are you seriously dismissingout of work of the very same extremely passionate people that helped build this entire community because they are not on?! Niceway to honor the work and ingenuity of all those that came before you.Also, Meavis has a very damn good guide on how to create maps from scratch on his Twitch profile, but I guess you will dismiss that too because you simply don't like the guy right?I'm very sad to see you behave like this.



I never said I was discrediting the information that was given. The information is legitimate in all means and I did use some of those guides.



However, there has been countless amounts of data supporting that humans all have different preferences to a style of learning. You have visual learners, those who enjoy watch someone else do it, you have those who are auditory, those who like to listen as such through lecture, audi-visual, a combination of both, such as a video, those who learn by reading and writing such as taking notes and processing the information, as well as kinesthetic or learning by doing.



There's also evidence to support this style of learning:



+ Show Spoiler +



Note how active the latter three are. This is why live commentary, stream discussion, etc is so effective. I never said I was discrediting the information that was given. The information is legitimate in all means and I did use some of those guides.However, there has been countless amounts of data supporting that humans all have different preferences to a style of learning. You have visual learners, those who enjoy watch someone else do it, you have those who are auditory, those who like to listen as such through lecture, audi-visual, a combination of both, such as a video, those who learn by reading and writing such as taking notes and processing the information, as well as kinesthetic or learning by doing.There's also evidence to support this style of learning:Note how active the latter three are. This is why live commentary, stream discussion, etc is so effective.



Wait, you want people to take that extra time out of their lives, which they already are doing so because they are making tutorials for other people and you are saying that their work is simply not enough and that they need to do it in video form? Do you realize what you are talking about? The great majority of these tutorials are not only made by people who at the time had nor real background on streaming because streaming if you are not aware of it, was really hard at the time, and it required a considerable amount of time to set up and get comfortable doing it, which would have taken time from the other things said people were doing, like you know actually making maps, practicing SC or socializing, jobs or college?



Again to me it seems that you are out of reality asking other people to go the extra mile just because you don't like to read, of course it also goes without mention that you haven't even addressed the Video tutorials that Meavis made because those again, apparently don't fit your mental narrative.



Avex, I'm sorry, but we are not here to hold your hand and take hours upon hours of our lives to teach every little thing to you, not because we are mean people, but because most of the time we are simply not able to, we have things to do, we are not paid for this, therefore we need to find another way to get an income to live. If you are able to spend all your day making maps, that's cool, but I and the great majority of the guys can't, therefore the time we can spend on it has to be focused well.



You know how sometimes you would ask me stuff on Skype and it would take me time, even sometimes a day to answer? Well that's not because I'm a mean guy that wants you to not learn anything, but because I have got other shit to do. Yet time and time again I tried my best to answer, even if I knew that your answer would be a "Why does the SC engine needs to be so backwards and buggy?", or something that had already been responded hundreds of times over in the Simple Questions Thread or Mapster.



Please, put your feet back on the ground, because as it stands you are being a entitled asshole asking for other people to put effort into things for you and masquerading them as if they were for the common good. We are doing what we can to improve things, just like we always have. Now if that's not enough for you, well, time to start spending your own time creating tutorials instead of bitching about that there are not enough Youtube videos.



Sorry for the rant on your own blog, but come on man, don't behave like a manchild. Wait, you want people to take that extra time out of their lives, which they already are doing so because they are making tutorials for other people and you are saying that their work is simply not enough and that they need to do it in video form? Do you realize what you are talking about? The great majority of these tutorials are not only made by people who at the time had nor real background on streaming because streaming if you are not aware of it, wasat the time, and it required a considerable amount of time to set up and get comfortable doing it, which would have taken time from the other things said people were doing, like you know actually making maps, practicing SC or socializing, jobs or college?Again to me it seems that you are out of reality asking other people to go the extra mile just because you, of course it also goes without mention that you haven't even addressed the Video tutorials that Meavis made because those again, apparently don't fit your mental narrative.Avex, I'm sorry, but we are not here to hold your hand and take hours upon hours of our lives to teach every little thing to you, not because we are mean people, but because most of the time we are simply, we have things to do, we are not paid for this, therefore we need to find another way to get an income to live. If you are able to spend all your day making maps, that's cool, but I and the great majority of the guys can't, therefore the time we can spend on it has to be focused well.You know how sometimes you would ask me stuff on Skype and it would take me time, even sometimes a day to answer? Well that's not because I'm a mean guy that wants you to not learn anything, but because. Yet time and time again I tried my best to answer, even if I knew that your answer would be a, or something that had already been responded hundreds of times over in the Simple Questions Thread or Mapster.Please, put your feet back on the ground, because as it stands you are being a entitled asshole asking for other people to put effort into things forand masquerading them as if they were for the common good. We are doing what we can to improve things, just like we always have. Now if that's not enough for you, well, time to start spending your own time creating tutorials instead of bitching about that there are not enough Youtube videos.Sorry for the rant on your own blog, but come on man, don't behave like a manchild.





I, what?



It seems like you completely missed my point.



I'm not dismissing the guides or the people who made them or the information within each guide. I'm not asking you to hold my hand - I'm asking the people who were conversing in the skype group - to which there were many whenever I asked - to stop circlejerking DotA2 and instead talk about what the map cave was about - StarCraft II mapping. Not once did I recieve a link to a direct guide, not once did I receive a pointer to specific videos that were made and pointed out earlier in this thread. Not once did conversation or discussion happen.



It's pretty clear that you and others are busy - which is why I never hounded you on skype to get back to me ASAP. Because I too am in college, I too have responsibilities, the fact that you have yet to identify that and insist on calling me a manchild really shows how fucking immature you are and how you look down upon me. And frankly, fuck you. This is exactly the reflection of you and the cave's behavior during my time in the cave.



I, what?It seems like you completely missed my point.I'm not dismissing the guides or the people who made them or the information within each guide. I'm not asking you to hold my hand - I'm asking the people who were conversing in the skype group - to which there were many whenever I asked - to stop circlejerking DotA2 and instead talk about what the map cave was about - StarCraft II mapping. Not once did I recieve a link to a direct guide, not once did I receive a pointer to specific videos that were made and pointed out earlier in this thread. Not once did conversation or discussion happen.It's pretty clear that you and others are busy - which is why I never hounded you on skype to get back to me ASAP. Because I too am in college, I too have responsibilities, the fact that you have yet to identify that and insist on calling me a manchild really shows how fucking immature you are and how you look down upon me. And frankly, fuck you. This is exactly the reflection of you and the cave's behavior during my time in the cave. Again to me it seems that you are out of reality asking other people to go the extra mile just because you don't like to read, of course it also goes without mention that you haven't even addressed the Video tutorials that Meavis made because those again, apparently don't fit your mental narrative.



You are literally just going out on a whim to insult me again and yet completely are incapable of reading my own fucking responses. I clearly responded to Meavis' videos here: You arejust going out on a whim to insult me again and yet completely are incapable of reading my own fucking responses. I clearly responded to Meavis' videos here: I expected that guides from 2+ years ago would be outdated and not have the proper statistics that I would need (for those of you in the cave, you should clearly remember that I asked - multiple times - what the average distances were, the surface area of the main, nat, third, etc). And you know what I always got in response? "Open the editor and do it yourself." Not even a link to these guides. So the cave itself too dismissed the videos - so why should I use them if this cave of such excellent mapmakers won't even reference that? And I just did in the above paragraph. You say I don't like reading and yet your own comprehension seems to be severely lacking. It's quite obvious you're just taking the opportunity as you did to lash out in the cave before to do it now in a more public forum.



And I just did in the above paragraph. You say I don't like reading and yet your own comprehension seems to be severely lacking. It's quite obvious you're just taking the opportunity as you did to lash out in the cave before to do it now in a more public forum. Please, put your feet back on the ground, because as it stands you are being a entitled asshole asking for other people to put effort into things for you and masquerading them as if they were for the common good. We are doing what we can to improve things, just like we always have. Now if that's not enough for you, well, time to start spending your own time creating tutorials instead of bitching about that there are not enough Youtube videos.



What do you think I'm doing? What do you actually think this blog is about? Did you just center on this single quote out of the entire blog because it pertained to you and your attitude as well as the cave?



On May 15 2016 14:57 Uvantak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2016 14:23 Avex wrote:the fact that there really aren't guides that would help people learn..

You are not serious, are you?



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/381942-mappers-index



You are not serious, are you?



Did you seriously not realize that this entire blog was a response to people who ask me how I map, how I think and register what features belong in a map? Did you seriously not realize that this was the beginning of a series of blogs on how I parttake in the mapping process? No, because you and the cave when it comes to new mappers love drama. It's so painfully obvious. When you aren't crying about not getting money in the Blizzard Submission or previous contests, it's creating your own drama.



What do you think I'm doing? What do you actually think this blog is about? Did you just center on this single quote out of theblog because it pertained to you and your attitude as well as the cave?Did you seriously not realize that this entire blog was a response to people who ask me how I map, how I think and register what features belong in a map? Did you seriously not realize that this was the beginning of a series of blogs on how I parttake in the mapping process? No, because you and the cave when it comes to new mappersdrama. It's so painfully obvious. When you aren't crying about not getting money in the Blizzard Submission or previous contests, it's creating your own drama. [1/28/2016 1:47:25 PM] michael: eh, ladder slots are the only prize anyway

[1/28/2016 1:48:10 PM] KTV: idk man, I still feel like shit when I told psione that the prizes they were giving felt like someone walked to the basement of blizz HQ picked up some things liying in the floor and tada! here are your prizes



You call me entitled yet durign the same submission discussion you made this comment which screamed "my maps are good and yet they won't even acknowledge me."



You call me entitled yet durign the same submission discussion you made this comment which screamed "my maps are good and yet they won't even acknowledge me." [1/28/2016 2:21:57 PM] KTV: Jokes on me, because it is clear that Blizz will find a way to leave m y maps out

[1/28/2016 2:21:59 PM] KTV: I cannot wait To which I was told later by a bird when you and the rest of the cave found out Invader was making it and not your work, you all had a hissy fit.



There's so many more comments but honestly I don't feel like going through them - as you said "I don't like to read."



And the fact that you can't even bother to hold a conversation and instead treat it like a legitimate question, i.e Why does the SC engine needs to be so backwards and buggy? - which was literally just me going "bleh this is annoying" - not a "Gee how does the engine work and why is it so buggy" - I know why it's buggy. Jesus christ.



To which I was told later by a bird when you and the rest of the cave found out Invader was making it and not your work, you all had a hissy fit.There's so many more comments but honestly I don't feel like going through them - as you said "I don't like to read."And the fact that you can't even bother to hold a conversation and instead treat it like a legitimate question, i.e- which was literally just me going "bleh this is annoying" - not a "Gee how does the engine work and why is it so buggy" - I knowit's buggy. Jesus christ.

I didn't make it clear that the main reason I want you in the cave is so that you can share what you've learned with us.



I don't have interest in joining that environment. I would rather create my own. I don't have interest in joining that environment. I would rather create my own. AVEX - 1st place TLMC8 & 9 (and 3rd and 4th, respectively), 2nd place TLMC11, 3x Finalist of TLMC7 (5th), 3x Finalist of TLMC10 (5th)

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