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From: jarethrake

2010-01-06 04:02 pm (UTC)

I found it very interesting.:D



And now I'm going to get off LJ and go finish my maths assignments, so as to finish my degree asap, get QTS and go teach small children not to be sexist.

From: weeona

2010-01-06 04:25 pm (UTC)

Not uninteresting at all! Thanks for the post.



I share your feelings of disgust and disappointment.

What year is this again? Shouldn't this outdated idea of gender roles be DEAD by now? It makes me so sad that the kids now are still being told, even in subtle ways, that what they can do/be and who they are is dependent on their sex organs. Sigh.

From: thaao

2010-01-06 09:20 pm (UTC)

Re: Not uninteresting at all! I work with all grade levels K-12. When I work with high school kids, they already have these ideals so deeply ingrained, I feel like I can do nothing to help them.



I mean it's not EVERY LAST STUDENT but pretty much :\

From: kitanabychoice

2010-01-06 04:30 pm (UTC)

My response to this is summed up in two words:



HOLY CRAP.



The thing with the hissing teacher? I probably wouldn't have my job if I were you, because I'd have a right fit about that. That is NOT the appropriate response at ANY time. @_@



One thing that struck me was your last couple of sentences, when you spoke about gender stereotypes. I have encountered people whom I've spoken about breaking gender stereotypes to who assume I'm pushing "the gay agenda" because I feel that, as you say, boys can cook and girls can play football and it not be a bad thing.

(Deleted comment)

From: wazira_sharira

2010-01-06 04:36 pm (UTC)

I can kind of understand simplifying gravity as "stuff sticking to stuff." Because after all these are second graders.



All the sexism, however, pisses me off. Especially since only a few parents will think to counter the ideas at home by letting their kid play with anything s/he wants to. The cooking kid cheered me up though. My brother's always been interested in cooking and got accepted to Johnson and Wales for culinary arts. Whereas I fuck up pasta. Cooking is for girls, my arse.

From: obustijuf

2010-01-06 05:18 pm (UTC)

hey! my little sister just got accepted to JWU for pastry! maybe they'll run into each other.





From: obustijuf

2010-01-06 05:17 pm (UTC)

ok I just want to say, I AM SO GLAD YOU WORK IN A SCHOOL THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE NEED MORE AWESOME PEOPLE IN SCHOOLS.



I also wasn't surprised to see that some of these occurred at a christian school - i don't know much about other sects, but Catholicism very heavily enforces both a strict gender binary an inherent inequality between the genders.



So, question. Recently I was thinking about kinds of social programming that would teach kids that they don't have to conform to gender stereotypes. Do you think that teaching would actually be more helpful for teachers, as a mandatory workshop or something like that?



I know a large part of our programming comes from our families, but I think another large part of that programming is the schools that we attend when we are very young.



Anyway, I'd be VERY interested in hearing your thoughts on this especially since you have been in the schools and looking through a gender lens.

From: thaao

2010-01-06 10:42 pm (UTC)

Yes, I think it would definitely be more beneficial for the teachers to have a workshop or something like that. I think if the teachers were to always encourage students to follow individual interests, behaviors, etc. rather than ones based on their physical sex's enforced gender model, then kids would be more willing to break away from stereotypes and gender roles.



Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have some kind of programming for the kids as well, as probably a lot of kids are influenced to mold based on their sex outside of school, as well, so they might need... more motivation, or something. Just like drug awareness and sex education are supposed to help kids fight influences and things they will encounter outside of school.



But you'll always have parents who would fight against something like that. There are parents who would rather die than have school tell their daughter she can play with whatever toy she wants ... even a toy truck!

From: igoformerlot

2010-01-06 05:20 pm (UTC)

Wow, that's really frustrating stuff. Especially the "cat fight" comment. What a horrible thing to say. Like little boys don't fight over who gets to control the toys? Or adults of both sexes for that matter? That teacher has some serious gender hatred of her own and I'm sorry that she's in a position to influence children!



I'll share a similar eye-opening incident I had when I had just come back from my first year at college, where I was studying philosophy and women's studies and full of wonderful visions of equality. I was working as a cashier in variety store that sold helium balloons. A mother carrying a little boy, age 4 or 5, I'd say, told him he could pick out a balloon. He wanted the pink one. She told him, sharply, that pink was for girls and he'd have the blue. He didn't want the blue one, he wanted the pink, he insisted. She slapped him, he started crying, and she took him out of the store with no balloon at all.



I just stood there with my mouth open, to shocked to speak. Probably just as well. I would have surely been fired if I'd been able to say what was on my mind!



This was in the 80's and I'd hoped things had gotten better by now. But from what you've written, it doesn't look like it. :(

From: wazira_sharira

2010-01-06 10:03 pm (UTC)

About two years ago I saw a woman in a toy store dragging her daughter towards "girl" toys when the kid seemed to want to see the rest of the store too. And she was like eight or nine, too, not a tiny kid. By then haven't people learned their kid's PERSONALITY and that it's not always going to fit in gender boxes? Apparently not...

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From: guingel

2010-01-06 05:41 pm (UTC)

Shit like this is why it amazes me that anyone can think gender roles are inherent. Clearly they are drilled into us our entire lives!

From: thaao

2010-01-06 09:39 pm (UTC)

Yeah! Even though there are already a lot of gender role ideals that are understood and developed by the time kids reach school age, working with all ages definitely has made me see a trend. The 5-8 year olds will express confusion and distaste when they are 'corrected' on their behaviors that break gender roles, but the older children get, the more they 'understand' their roles and even begin to enforce them on their peers.



But Kindergarteners are definitely bewildered and appalled when they learn that boys should color the fire truck and girls should color the unicorn. They always ask why and say it makes no sense to them. They realize 'pink is girl' and 'blue is boy,' because they've probably learned that at home already, but further things still aren't fully ingrained.



It's DEFINITELY taught! I mean, if they were inherent, why would gender roles and stereotypes differ across cultures? We're all human, after all.

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From: obustijuf

2010-01-07 06:58 pm (UTC)

do you teach art? because i so know what you are talking about!

From: maevele

2010-01-06 06:13 pm (UTC)

and people act like it doesn' make sense when I say part of why I homeschool my kids is for feminist reasons.

From: thaao

2010-01-06 09:42 pm (UTC)

I 100% hear you on this. I do not have children of my own, but I would like to some day. And after working in the schools, there is no way I want my kids going there and "learning" all of this bigotry and inequality and stuff.



Plus school lunches are miserable and so unhealthy, lol.

From: meaghie_poison

2010-01-06 06:53 pm (UTC)

this is horrible!!! i admire your ability to keep teaching there.



i remember when i was a kid back in kindergarten or preschool or something we had to make pilgrim and indian hats (things weren't PC quite yet) i wasn't in the indian group, which i was mad about because they were obviously cooler, but to make things worse I had to make a pilgrim girl's hat!!!! i threw a fit, i wanted to be a boy pilgrim, didn't understand why i couldn't wear the boy pilgrim's hat, with that nice buckle and without all the stupid curling and stapling.



i don't really remember which hat i ended up wearing.

From: thaao

2010-01-06 09:45 pm (UTC)

That's pretty lame. I had an online friend who had a daughter who was allowed to be a man in their school play (this was like... 1st or 2nd grade, something like that) and she even got to wear a big red beard (just like her father's) :)



Though, thinking about it now, I bet they would've been a lot less willing to let a boy play a princess.

From: soiamme

2010-01-06 06:55 pm (UTC)

it might not be a huge influence that you have on these kids, but if you just teach them that things can work differently for a single day, then these kids learned something, after all :)



you never know, maybe ten years from now one of these kids will remember that teacher they only had for about a week that was actually cool ;)

From: thaao

2010-01-06 09:45 pm (UTC)

Yeah, that kind of thought really makes the stress of this job seem a lot less important :) Thanks :)

From: cjblackwing

2010-01-06 07:23 pm (UTC)

The My Little Pony story REALLY pissed me off. What if the boy in question just really likes horses? And if boys aren't supposed to play with those, then are girls not supposed to play with Legos and stuff? I played with Legos ALL the time when I was little, and if anyone ever tried to tell me know, I woulda just chucked something hard at their face. And if some imbecile teacher tried to keep one of MY (future) kids from playing with the toys that don't normally fit with their gender (especially if they tried to keep my daughter from playing with Legos) then I would make every effort to get their teaching license suspended. And if that didn't work, I'd think of other ways to make their life miserable. :)



tl;dr: you're so right. T_T;

From: caketime

2010-01-06 07:39 pm (UTC)

I LOVED LEGOS, OMG. But my kids are definitely getting Playmobil. I'm so jealous of people who got to play with them as a kid, they're awesome.

From: and_complicated

2010-01-06 09:03 pm (UTC)

I just want to applaud you for not losing your cool all the time because I probably would. But I can totally understand why you keep your shit together and not get into a fight about the sexism going on in your everyday life.

I know how hard it can be to hold your tongue.



From: dernhelm1982

2010-01-06 09:07 pm (UTC)

Your stories remind me of an incident with a younger cousin of mine.



His big sister was playing dress up and being three he wanted to do the same. So he picked himself out a big frilly blouse and high heeled shoes and paraded around in them.



His mother pitched a fit until grandma stepped in saying, "He's three! What harm is it going to do him? There's nothing wrong with a little boy wanting to play harmless games."

From: thaao

2010-01-06 09:48 pm (UTC)

It's not a harmless game! He's gonna become a nancyboy omfg!!!11



But yeah. My neighbors and I played Pretty Pretty Princess all the time, and it was a group of two boys and two girls. None of our parents seemed to care that the boys were excited about getting to win the tiara and stuff.

From: licianess

2010-01-06 10:34 pm (UTC)

Wow, this was a pretty depressing read, and I think the fact that it's not "new or shocking" just makes it worse. This stuff is happening everywhere, and no one even blinks because it's just "the way things are."



There was some kind of field trip at my university a few months ago. I think it was middle school students. They were told to sit on this little ledge, so they all raced to it and sat down chaotically. Their teacher then walked up and said, "Guys, ladies first!" So they all rearranged, many of the boys repeating that instruction to their friends. I rolled my eyes. It drives me crazy how lots of people still regard that and similar things, such as men being expected to give up their seats for women, holding doors open specifically for women, etc., as "common courtesy." ugh.



We need more teachers like you!

From: thaao

2010-01-06 10:48 pm (UTC)

Yeah, I had a conversation with a high school student last year; he said his art teacher had really ridiculous opinions. I asked him what he meant, and he said that she told him it wasn't a politeness to do those kinds of 'ladies first' things. I asked him if he would hold doors and allow other men to do things first, and he said no. I asked him if he felt that women were so pathetic and weak that they couldn't open a door with their own strength and needed some kind of special treatment (in front of many of his female friends). He, of course, said no. I told him his teacher might have had a point. He didn't get it at all.



I've also been left instructions by teachers in elem classes that tell me their class follows a strict 'ladies first' procedure. Girls always line up first, go to lunch first, etc. All of the students seem to accept and respect this ideal :\ The kids do it so instinctively that there's not much I can even do about it.