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Obama and John Bussey with Wall Street Europe last year to date with former Vice President Dick Cheney who has a new book out ... on ... his memoirs and his wife and his time in government ... pie in which year did today is Sokolove about foreign policy response in a ... range of issues ... and wonderfully could be the start with the Mideast of what's happening in Egypt now we just ... recently saw the Israeli ... embassy ransacked ... and I'm wondering how you would assess U S ... policy toward the Mideast now ... um ... did the US ... get out in front of history or ... did we abandon ... old allies your mind ... will it stay on ... in the first of all is it's a ... risky business did predict ... what exactly can happen again will ... will have a better perspective made the ... two years down the road when we can look and see what emerges from this period of turmoil ... surely it's been a time of the of ... pretty intense change ... and permanent I was thinking back ... comparing the present to what it was like ... in years past ... I can remember being sent to the region in the ... August of nineteen ninety when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait ... and ... President Bush forty one stemming out ... to ... begin talks with the Saudis to persuade them to ... allow US forces into the Kingdom and so forth ... and as I made that first trip to the region ... there were two people I'd say one was between five and Saudi Arabia ... knew there was a Mubarak in Egypt ... and of those two guys were were crucial ... they turn out to be our best allies and with their approval ... we were able to put ... me in troops ... in the desert ... of good over fly right to a decline directly in their ... use of the airfields ... home use the Suez Canal in the sheep's back and forth even if that were ... nuclear powered ... question I ask myself the that is ... good to have thought about the time was ... if I get their mission today ... good Saudi Arabia and Egypt and ... and the work out to an arrangement ... for the club he was forced to the region ... who were were to start ... we are doing the job numbers and ... you can still deal with Saudi Zintan ... terminus stability in the government ... but in Egypt and with the very difficult ... Percy had gotten to the point ... um where there was a much option for the U S government but to abandon um ... of Mubarak in that ... protests in the streets ... for such that ... military force ... of of put against ... those protests mind a result of the killings of with of them and unacceptable ... well I I think it clearly they decided ... not to use force only the Egyptian military have a lot to do that ... I'm told I don't know is struggling with his papers in ... hand and still and tied to some friends in the region ... um ... that the event have been telling testify ... Mubarak Trial but ... in in private will be made public ... and the real question is ... turning around his role in the Bartz rules ... did he order ... somebody fire on civilians ... that somebody else do that ... to what extent do was there an active role ... by the government and murder ... and I just don't know the answers to that at this point getting its conceivable we could've kept Mubarak in power ... to this um ... the wooden difficult ... I'm ... I'm number one to make ... hard and fast judgments partly because we don't know what's going happen but ... it struck me that ... he'd reached a point ... sometime ago where ... he was in some considerable difficulty ... when Carter was a function of age ... um ... I think if you are going to undertake reforms to the waited too long ... the shoot the gun to her ... and of course now nice to ... paint a pretty stiff price and gone by ... um ... I'm not to ... saying one ... but was ultimately to emerge or there I just don't know and and the ... to talk to them Egyptian for this week ... he doesn't know if ... he ... is in the Muslim Brotherhood ... know what happened the people who organize the ... original protest and Dishware and so forth ... who's going to emerge from and what's the role of military going to be ... is again in the ... a positive one ... or ... are their potential problems there ... nobody seems to have a handle on this ... and this was exactly the concern of the Israelis had during this is the school was the only ... one sentimental and today that's right this one what if you had to ... make your bets ... an attempt to sue one of those possibilities um ... what do you think guns of ... emerged as the focal point of leadership ... in Egypt is again the military is that can be some iteration of Apple's Brotherhood ... well right now I think it is the military and the military's ... pretty strong in Egypt is that a fairly strong economic base is well ... is there to gauge and a lot of enterprises that ... there are well beyond what the military's of them are involved ... I know a few Marshall turned sour in our ... defense ministers the same time together ... now in the ... book authored he still ... the defence ministry ... hasn't changed only two years thirty years ... but to um ... I think the the potentially is that the ... the military is certain he can ... conceivably be sort of the ... ultimate safeguard ... going forward but if they aren't ... then you are very much tool see something like ... the Muslim Brotherhood emerge and ... of course ... we've seen ... a lot of trouble in connection with the own our own typical is that ... we've encountered in places like Afghanistan ... with the ... Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda ... Zawahiri remember comes right out of ... Egypt and in Cairo and was part of the ... attempt on Saddam's life ... and ... it's not clear ... that it was soooo will ... emerge from this ... I talk to some folks who ... seem to believe ... I ... certainly hope ... that the of the al Qaeda style it is Llamas fundamentalism ... it is being discredited through this process ... than in fact ... the values that are ... most ... sought after ... by many people who have an instrumental ... in the Arab Spring ... our values ... between the third Temple team ... but I just don't know yet ... we have linked Libya ... properly ... um ... I am ... Iâ m going to see Ghadafi depart ... I think everybody is we don't quite know where he is yet ... um ... I'm also is I look back on that I'm ... Cleese that we were able to strip him of his nuclear capabilities ... some years ago and in November one went into Iraq ... and to be on Saddam Hussein a few days after we captured Saddam ... Mark Duffy went public and announced he was given to his ... uranium enrichment capabilities are centrifuges ... uranium feedstock and his weapons design all that was turned over to the US ... back in goal for ... Chrome that was a very positive development in light of what's happened since then it but to um ... I think yet again maybe is a place for those places ... where it's not all clear ... who's to merge ... when the dust settles has been charged with me we don't ... know ... in your book you describe ... president Bush ... is saying that the Coke's North Korea has its Ghadafi moment in referring to what you just described which was ... a realisation the US to give up the new program ... um and in fact the Fed didn't happen ... but I'm wondering now whether North Korea yes definitely that's that's right that's right ... aam Moreno of ... given ... what happened to Libya ... without nukes ... whether or not North Korea would say ... of the last thing we wanna do is of give up a nuclear program or Iran give up nuclear program because look what did happen to Gadhafi in Libya payable to come in with conventional weapons they were worried about ... the nuclear ... capability of the country ... well of course the North Koreans are ... Marcy given only for their long only managed to weapons test ... not only of they've been producing the ... warheads with the ... plutonium ... but they've also know that a robust ... uranium enrichment program ... which some of the suspected it's now been ... proven in and people in outsiders ... can show them the centrifuges ... um ... I don't think a ... that to ... I haven't seen anything recently that leads me to believe they're going to give up ... their of their nuclear aspirations ... um ... whether or not they ... we ... continue to proliferate ... distorted the ultimate test of ... President Bush to one point ... after they tested the first weapon ... lay down a mark and said don't look for in this technology ... anybody else especially ... terror sponsoring states and unfortunately due to an end ... build the reactor in Syria ... for the Syrians that was like the one they've been using ... goes to produce plutonium was on ... track ... but if you're Iran injure ... Evans tested your weapon yet mean look at ... Libya ... um ... isn't that entrench your interests even further but you think the last thing on the to do ... is give it up ... and I'm sure that the ... the folks behind the program in Iran ... not in Asia and so forth are ... convinced ... that they need to have nuclear weapons ... there's been a lot of money in one of ... major resource commitment to that very purpose ... that doesn't mean the rest of the world to ... sit idly by and allowed to happen ... I think the idea that nuclear armed Iran is ... threatening to and frankly ... I think the Israelis will find it that ... I think the Israelis ... are going to look on Iran ... if in ... fact to follow suit and turns to acquire nuclear weapons ... as a as a threat to their very existence ... and as result ... as a result I think they're ... more likely to support a robust option to ... to ... eliminate that possibility ... we had to um ... Michael Caine and ... just a couple of days ago who said that ... the only time the torch Bush of Greece's forced it to him was so wasted don't ever put me in a position of having just two options with ... Iran ... that is ... um except things the way they are and do nothing ... of or ... do something ... meaningful connection ... um ... and so on ... Hayden former C I a director ... does suggested that that's pretty much the trajectory of four branded now with the would you agree with that ... I don't know of ... whether or not ... the Obama administration looks ... like ... is certain I do for proposition ... my belief always was that we needed to keep the military option on the table ... you start you could have publicly in my speech ... that the only way you can hope to make ... the iam ... um diplomacy aggressive diplomacy credible ... wasn't in fact they knew it ... they didn't comply diplomatically ... or go along with whatever ... non peaceful solution he came up with ... that they did taste a very real prospect ... that they face a military option ... home ... that so ... may not quite hit with its contracted to ... Mike was given by ... the boss President Bush ... but I think realistically ... that's where we are to be today and I'm ... the anemone confidence in all that's what we don't think a ... present Obama has ever ... state to determine position ... and in the ... uranium's that there's a ... price to be paid to go forward ... here what everybody ... and so one talk about ... what's more like with the nuclear armed ... Iran ... and are we better off if we ... we take the fairly bold and aggressive action to strip them of that capability ... or if we backed off and we let them ... go forward and develop an inventory of nuclear weapons duly given to ... fully shared with this is ... one of the world's borscht terror sponsoring states Hezbollah ... Hamas ... the second ... biggest face the threats we face in United States ... is a terrorist organisation equipped with with the nuclear capability or biological agent of some kind of make ... nine eleven look like ... them much less of a problem on all the sudden ... were faced with the situation were to ... survive hundred thousand dead Americans because of ... the kind of threat ... and I think realistically afford going to ... see the North Korea's of the world ... and ... the Ron's of the World Series of the World Development Tony capability ... we face the very real prospect that at some point ... home ... and deadly adversary will acquire capability ... that ... we can lead a minute that's not just a ... Bombay ... Syrian ... nuclear ... power plant in the desert where the activity is ... that with the campaign against Iran because of the ... the dimension of the nuclear effort Mike Meyer wrong about that the move ... was never so depend on ... circumstances to time where did they get to where they do with it ... no ... no but if if one were to eliminate that ... good ability in Iran to do that with these ... quite an undertaking this is not a ... couple of installations to be bought ... quite possibly ... now if sexism happens and sometimes they Doherty have to and did a ... great deal of diplomacy on it and ... still the centrifuges are a running time in Iran ... does that lead you to the conclusion that ... there is only one option at this point with the country or de think that ... diplomacy can still work ... move ... over the years we've watched him ... the Israelis deal with the stress of the ones most directly ... affected by and we saw them and ... in the early eighties take out the Iraqi reactor absurd ... um ... they did a lot of grief for his time ... granted I said to the ... delivery was ... commanding therefore so thank you for ... the nineteen ninety one ... um because otherwise if he had done what he did back in early eighties ... Saddam I will abandon nuclear weapon by nineteen ninety one ... when we went in the first time to come into it ... um subsequent to that they've taken at the Syrian reactor ... the North Koreans built form ... in ... last year and the coolest seventy ... four mobile seven ... home ... that was a good piece of work to ... that time around they didn't take much ... keen for it when they eliminated ... the syringe demean insane leaders quietly Coverdell one of the business ... um so I am ... I think if you contemplate the possibility ... that some of these regimes especially if they have a ... tiny tear their Börsig have a relationship ... with a terrorist organization ... then you get a look at a nuclear weapon in a very different light than to talk about ... the silliest during the cold War years for deterrents ... one of the most disturbing reports I've seen recently ... this was an Empresas classified ... I don't see classified information and more ... but to ... use the press recently ... moved from ... New York Times nor should coach ... that ... was attributed to a Q Khan the father of the ... Pakistani nuclear program ... um then went into business for himself and simple black market operation which we close down ... Libya was to discuss where we get an option and ... had him under house arrest ... he was quoted recently as saying ... that North Korea ... and thrived Pakistani officials ... in order to acquire ... the ... equipment they need to build centrifuges spin ... and build uranium enrichment capability ... to replace the role of Tony and systems continues ... so the North Koreans pain Pakistanis ... officials ... to place military or ... in their program ... in order to acquire nuclear capability ... um ... if the North Koreans can do it ... gnome ... what's to stop somebody else ... diesel and that's you know again in its press report ... and Mariah on everything you read in the history the ... Dow was very disturbing piece of information you you mention Israel um ... bombing of planting ... in Iraq bombing the plant genes in Syria those are of ... a ... one off events ... single installations ... um by suggesting that Israel might ... that does Israel in your mind have the capability of ... eliminating the Iranian nuclear threat militarily or with the with the United States get drawn into that idea why I can answer that I really don't know ... um ... I have ... in my dealings with the Israelis they care enough ... to really do ... I'd be amazed if they let it go forward ... unencumbered ... contracts ... there are now unable to stop but due to the sanctions effort to now ... apart and if the Israelis did you something like that what was the US position they ... will hire for one would stand up and cheer ... I'm ... usually what happens is the ... State Department prevail Sumner some messages exchanged ... but I think a ... I think the problem ... if the Iranians go forward are successful in developing nuclear weapons ... that's not a problem just with the Israelis although the one most ... directly affected because they live in the neighborhood ... but it's can be a problem for all of us ... Youtube you right in your book about North Korea and this issue on North Korea's ... nuclear plants policy setting a war or reward teachers behavior by rapid series do not work concessions delivered out of desperation ... in the naive hope that the spots will spotting kind tend ... not to enhance the security of the United States you talk about the failure us to fill your policy ... during the Bush administration wanted ... to get ... North Korea to ... eliminate its nuclear weapons ... of what went wrong ... how we fix it ... now we know that I laid out in the book ... what I thought were some guidelines to be followed ... but to um ... in fact what happened was we lay down markers and then we didn't force ... room to lay down a marker when they tested their first nuclear weapon in the ... fall of o six and then they ... oh we sit don't quickly and then within a matter of months ... we found they had to build ... a reactor to the Syrians ... home ... the um ... Krista maybe what I think was a very good effort initially ... when I decided to approach the op ... multinational basis in its Chinese ... partner because they're the ... sort of remember what traders with respect to North Korea ... they do more business with North Korea than anybody else ... but he also had the Japanese the South Koreans the Russians ... U S six of this whole ... unfortunately ... the effort to ... make the end of breakdown morally and in a situation where our State Department one and two ... the deal by latterly with the North Koreans ... then we moved away from the idea of collective effort ... of the ... five nations working to ... persuade them that they are to give up nuclear weapons ... um I was a serious this judgment we should work hard ... to keep that together we should of taken advantage ... when the North set off a weapon ... known to use that as an excuse to ... reconvene the group and say look ... you know the North Koreans are developing weapons would be able to say to the ... Chinese it gonna be concerned about Japan getting back into the business or ... South Korea ... home ... moving to develop their capabilities of factors ... and in the North Korea ... it's heavily armed with nuclear weapons ... um but we didn't do and we can move ... use a North Korean misbehavior ... effectively ... on the connection for example ... with the ... no ... more can the Chinese account ... I what I suggested was that we should have ... taken out the Syrian reactor sell ... that would reinforce the ... in major ways to the notion to the North Koreans are we meant business ... the Syrians the women in business ... and would help a lot in terms of establishing ... our credibility ... on these issues continue to think of the Chinese really one of the ball on the North Korean ... issue um isn't really in their interest to put the arm on on ... on North Korea they don't know what a creative instability there that war refugees into that China may be a bit like the fact that North Korea keeps us a little off balance ... well I think the North Koreans and play this masterful ... they did when administration to which the probably do this and the Obama administration ... um and they ... they know I'm a jerk or trade ... Anaran or negotiations agree ... that whatever benefits are to be derived ... from the agreement will go back to business Chinese appear to be happy to watch so I think the Chinese are ... I'm guessing I can't claim the Chinese expert ... but that the Chinese have never been forced to step up ... and and and ... be part of the solution ... no we get on the agenda we had some discussions about it ... but in the final analysis ... they've always been able to be confident that the United States ... isn't going to ... um ... many jitters deftly ... things we should ... and ... in the final analysis they'd rather not have the problem ... of having to deal ... with the North Korean problem last week on in your book you spend a number of pages in a very interesting analysis of how ... the intelligence about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ... was formulated ... over decades my over mobile administrations ... on convincing many presidents and of many people in Congress and of their chosen some of the threat of Saddam Hussein ... aam was this the certainty that we had to die in the ministry should go into the Iraq war ... but there were weapons of mass destruction there ... AntiSec intelligence ... um at the end of the day ... the matter were the intelligence might've ... been coming from ... was a really up to the CEO in the CEO and the lack of better parallel the president the Vice-President that that that information ... by and to ... be certain of it before ... making so ... nature of that ... sending troops into another country ... well ... I am ... to the extent that you can be certain ... McAdam intelligence ... whom we work ... on ... you know I can remember the meeting we sat down in the Oval Office ... the director this EIA ... and with his deputy ... and ... George Tenet time was the director ... and said OK George have good news the intelligence ... on Iraqi WMD ... and the answer was it's slam dunk ... to slim down ... there was just something we come up with them in this this notion that somehow ... Bush and Cheney said around the Oval Office on Saturday morning and ... dreamed up the idea of ... Iraqi dead DNDN or synthetic oil then ... back in ninety eight when ... Saddam take out the inspectors ... ninety eight when Congress passed ... the liberation of Iraq Liberation Act ... appropriated hundred million dollars ... to support the political opposition inside Iraq ... bill Clinton made a speech and ninety eight it sounded like me ... in two thousand to ... calm the exact same ... phrase is almost in terms of ... Saddam has weapons of mass destruction ... Saddam's many use weapons of mass destruction ... um ... you are what made the cannabis P J Rottapharm and economists picture Carl Levin Minack speech ... it was to how the government wasn't just the Bush Cheney ... comes to mind ... the first major ... report I recall after we yet have to have elected to this during the transition ... was on Iraqi WMD ... and to the next one twenty seven months until we actually launched into Iraq ... to resist any ground By and that kind of reporting ... coming and ... um ... now the bottom line was all over with ... who in the Iraq survey Group a definition by ABK and ... Charles Seville for ... to go for when he finished in and completed the report ... and the third goal for the of the day ... that to him ... and this is attributed ... to the FBI agent who ... in fact the Greeks Saddam for several months after he was captured ... of Saddam said he'd be back in business with any year ... after ... the sanctions were lifted the back of the weapons as Docklands as its destruction ... David Kay said that he was more worried ... about the threat that Iraq represented ... after he'd in the survey ... he was before when he thought he had a stockpile of its ... KZN people into ... the technology and the capacity to produce ... he introduced can use to before ... they fully expected to again ... um so the the notion that there was no threat there ... was this just ... the big empty hole in the ground that ... um ... and never had anything in it that there was no threat of an account ... just a substantial analysis what happened was ... those people who ... all ... saw the same intelligence weakened ... it wasn't passed on a partisan basis ... and was limited to the executive branch ... um everybody at the same conclusion we didn't ... including the Germans ... and the Brits ... um ... the they all came in the same conclusions and the fact the matter was ... he didn't have stopped spitting at everything else ... and he had what he needed to get back into the business again ... and he had every intention of doing so ... so I think we're much better off with Saddam gone ... the game and tsunamis would cost about the ... cost of his materials ... and the world to monitor up to the tothe Mountain nuclear business ... and ... Saddam in Baghdad ... Gadhafi in