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hairspring

join:2007-11-23

Oakville, ON hairspring Member For a brief moment I pictures Bell with both hands on Teksavvy's neck.



I think its a fair analogy.

Thane_Bitter

Inquire within

Premium Member

join:2005-01-20 ·Start.ca

Thane_Bitter Premium Member Re: For a brief moment said by hairspring:



I pictures Bell with both hands on Teksavvy's neck.

I pictures Bell with both hands on Teksavvy's neck. It is probably more like a headlock; since that would leave a free hand for Bell to grab one's wallet. nasadude

join:2001-10-05

Rockville, MD nasadude Member ain't lack of competition grand? just think, if there were real competition, we wouldn't get to experience any of this!

NG

@rogers.com NG Anon not a shared service But I thought Bell sold the service based on the fact it's not a shared connection (like cable) so why would they have to throttle? hottboiinnc4

ME

join:2003-10-15

Cleveland, OH hottboiinnc4 Member Re: not a shared service Because DSL is shared at some point. All internet is shared at some point along the line. Cable is just shared out farther in the field than DSL. DSL is shared at each DSLAM. Thats the thing that DSL lovers/ravers forget- it may be dedicated from the CO to your house/business but it doesnt mean its dedicated all the way to the Internet or passed the equipment. InvalidError

join:2008-02-03 InvalidError to NG

Member to NG

said by NG :



But I thought Bell sold the service based on the fact it's not a shared connection (like cable) so why would they have to throttle?

Normal large-scale networks aren't built to handle 100% end-point load routing capacity in everywhich direction. The only difference between cable and ADSL is the point at which the sharing and over-subscribing begins. With cable, it starts right on the coax and this makes the shared nature plain obvious. With ADSL, sharing begins at the DSLAM's ATM backplane. Beyond this point, both technologies become very similar.



The whole internet is an oversubscribed shared network that would not be able to handle every internet user simultaneously going at full speed.



Simply look at TSI: their traffic peaks are currently around 2.5Gbps. With an overall average of about 50GB/subscriber/month which is less than 1/4 of what is possible at 1Mbps, TSI would need over 20Gbps of total transit capacity to provide non-blocking full-speed for everybody assuming an average sync speed of 2.5Mbps. But for the time being, everybody east-side is happy with TSI's current 3xGbE links to Bell-land... modulo Bell's new wholesale throttling. Normal large-scale networks aren't built to handle 100% end-point load routing capacity in everywhich direction. The only difference between cable and ADSL is the point at which the sharing and over-subscribing begins. With cable, it starts right on the coax and this makes the shared nature plain obvious. With ADSL, sharing begins at the DSLAM's ATM backplane. Beyond this point, both technologies become very similar.The whole internet is an oversubscribed shared network that would not be able to handle every internet user simultaneously going at full speed.Simply look at TSI: their traffic peaks are currently around 2.5Gbps. With an overall average of about 50GB/subscriber/month which is less than 1/4 of what is possible at 1Mbps, TSI would need over 20Gbps of total transit capacity to provide non-blocking full-speed for everybody assuming an average sync speed of 2.5Mbps. But for the time being, everybody east-side is happy with TSI's current 3xGbE links to Bell-land... modulo Bell's new wholesale throttling.

PhoenixDown

FIOS is Awesome

Premium Member

join:2003-06-08

Fresh Meadows, NY PhoenixDown Premium Member teksavvy Too bad they aren't reselling broadband here in the states hottboiinnc4

ME

join:2003-10-15

Cleveland, OH hottboiinnc4 Member Re: teksavvy Won't happen. the US Telcos do not want the linesharing/reselling and have basically killed it.



I havent figured out why use a reseller though when you can go direct to the actual ISP and get the same service- usually cheaper. I don't see the need for all the fluff if you don't need it; like ISP email and webspace.

Guspaz

Guspaz

MVM

join:2001-11-05

Montreal, QC 1 recommendation Guspaz MVM Re: teksavvy Because it's not reselling. Under the CRTC's model, Bell is used for the coppper, the DSLAM (what your DSL modem talks to), and the ATM network to get you to your ISP. From there, you're on your own ISP's network, using their upstream providers and peers. Some ISPs colocate their own DSLAMs in COs, in which case they're only using the dumb copper.



This is why they're called wholesellers and not resellers; they're relying on Bell for the last mile, but using their own networks for actual internet connectivity. The result is TekSavvy can sell 200GB/mth for $30/mth while Bell charges something like $42 (last I checked) for 30GB/mth.



Now, TekSavvy themselves have many resellers, and I don't understand why somebody would want to go with one of them; they really are just resellers. Might as well go with TekSavvy directly.

Xanet

@teksavvy.com Xanet Anon Re: teksavvy "TekSavvy themselves have many resellers, and I don't understand why somebody would want to go with one of them;"



Because my clients trust me and appreciate the services that I provide. They also appreciate the fact that I've introduced them to the great service and cost savings that TekSavvy offers and want me to be paid for my efforts... and so does TekSavvy. patcat88

join:2002-04-05

Jamaica, NY patcat88 to Guspaz

Member to Guspaz

Are the lines from the wholesalers BC circuit or packet switched?

Guspaz

Guspaz

MVM

join:2001-11-05

Montreal, QC Guspaz MVM Re: teksavvy Telus has a packet-switched network, but it doesn't matter; DSL works directly over the raw copper wire. From there, it's just a question of how it's backhauled to the ISP's PoP. I believe Bell uses L2TP over ATM.

sbrook

Mod

join:2001-12-14

Ottawa sbrook to hottboiinnc4

Mod to hottboiinnc4

Unfortunately in this case, you CAN'T get it cheaper with the Bell and you definitely get a LOT more fluff with Bell.

Thane_Bitter

Inquire within

Premium Member

join:2005-01-20 ·Start.ca

Thane_Bitter to hottboiinnc4

Premium Member to hottboiinnc4

said by hottboiinnc4:



I havent figured out why use a reseller though when you can go direct to the actual ISP and get the same service- usually cheaper. I don't see the need for all the fluff if you don't need it; like ISP email and webspace.

I havent figured out why use a reseller though when you can go direct to the actual ISP and get the same service- usually cheaper. I don't see the need for all the fluff if you don't need it; like ISP email and webspace. Well you will be horribly disappointed with Bell, they are more expensive then whole/resellers, and have outsourced email services to Hotmail. Yes, they still do have a web space, a whopping 5 megs worth, but you must wade through technical support (which has also been outsourced) to get it running! hottboiinnc4

ME

join:2003-10-15

Cleveland, OH hottboiinnc4 Member Re: teksavvy why use ISP email? why use their webspace? most people (especially on here just bitch about ISP email anyway). Why not just get a domain and have it hosted at Gmail Apps.



Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.

BACONATOR26

Premium Member

join:2000-11-25

Nepean, ON BACONATOR26 Premium Member Re: teksavvy said by hottboiinnc4:



Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.

Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it. Except that when I need to use tech support, for instance when my line is down or I am having problems with email I would like to get good support, so that if it's an issue with my ISP it doesn't take 20 calls to figure it out!

nekkidtruth

YISMM

Premium Member

join:2002-05-20

London, ON Netgear R7000

Asus RT-N66

Hitron CODA-4582

2 edits nekkidtruth Premium Member Re: teksavvy said by BACONATOR26: said by hottboiinnc4:



Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.

Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.

Except that when I need to use tech support, for instance when my line is down or I am having problems with email I would like to get good support, so that if it's an issue with my ISP it doesn't take 20 calls to figure it out! What is this good support you speak of? I know of very few ISP's who actually assist their customers well. In fact, I worked technical support for 2 different ISP's and nine times out of ten we're told to send them to a third-party such as Microsoft or Eudora etc. It's very rare that an ISP will admit to having difficulties with their mail servers, and even MORE rare for them to actually fix any issues with their mail servers.

Taylortbb

Premium Member

join:2007-02-18

Kitchener, ON Taylortbb Premium Member Re: teksavvy You're right, it is very rare. That's why TekSavvy has such a loyal following. Their support is excellent, you talk to people that know what they're doing and aren't reading from a script. They also admit when they're having problems and say what the problem is and how long till its resolved.

Em Adespoton

@allstream.net Em Adespoton Anon Re: teksavvy If you're tech savvy yourself, just run a traceroute to figure out where your connection stops, then run a traceroute from the outside (via a friendly wireless access point or something) to see where the problem is from the outside. Then call tech support with these two IP addresses and any telltale information their reverse DNS lookup gives you, and tell the person on the other end that you've noticed network issues between the two points and would like to talk to someone knowledgeable regarding their current network issues.



Using this trick always gets me escalated within minutes to someone who actually knows what they're talking about -- they often think I'm a wholesaler who somehow called in on the wrong line. Generally the answers are something along the line of "Bob currently has router X offline in building Y -- the failover to carrier X's network doesn't seem to be kicking in. When Bill gets there with the new hardware (should be an hour or so), we'll have more information)."



Sure beats "Try restarting your computer again while closing one eye and kissing your modem" that you get at the lower levels.

hypatia

@teksavvy.com hypatia Anon Re: teksavvy @Em Adespoton



that's the beautiful thing about teksavvy - you don't need to get escalated, because their first-tier techs are actually clueful. TopSpeed6

join:2002-06-26

Gatineau, QC TopSpeed6 to hottboiinnc4

Member to hottboiinnc4

You need to also consider that under the U.S. Patriot Act, the government can intercept or view any email or electronic content stored in or transiting by the U.S.A. even if it belongs to a foreign citizen. Since Hotmail and Yahoo are in the U.S., the Patriot Act will apply even if you connect from Canada.

If I was Canadian, I'd stick with a Canadian ISP which stored my emails in Canada.

be carefull

@rogers.com be carefull to Thane_Bitter

Anon to Thane_Bitter

never use ISP's email you dont want isp specific email addresses anyway. rogers made EVERYONE change their address from at HOME, to some other stupid shit--cant remember what, i never use isp email. they had NO choice, because i think it was yahoo that forced them to change after gettin the @HOME domain. think they tried to strong arm rogers for cash, and then possibly the users, so they could keep their addresses they had for yesrs, some more than 10 years, of paying rogers almost 50$ per month, or 600 per year. after 10 years you have just given rogers 6 THOUSAND dollars, and they cant even guarantee you email address as promised in teh sales pitch. if that happened to me, would have sued them for every penny i paid them fromt eh moment i made that email address. who knows how many long lost friends, business contacts etc those poor trusting idiots lost out on.



no, my friend, NEVER use isp email. always go with a email only setup. GOOGLE mail is pretty good now, but even shitty hotmail, or some paid email (yes they do exist) would have been better. avoid the paid email services tho, their fly by mnight, and needing to charge for email hosting is a POOR business model--they won't be around for long. google and hotmail wil be around for a very long time, only MS might get ugly some day and mess with their users, GOOG us far more ethical and less likely to screw over its users. even a company like Techsavvy, which seems like they are VERY nice and well LIKED may not be able to protect users form bell pulling the plug on them, just to be assholes. SlickNetAaro

Premium Member

join:2008-01-19

Minneapolis, MN SlickNetAaro to hottboiinnc4

Premium Member to hottboiinnc4

said by hottboiinnc4:



Won't happen. the US Telcos do not want the linesharing/reselling and have basically killed it.



Won't happen. the US Telcos do not want the linesharing/reselling and have basically killed it. Funny, we have probably 100 ISPs to choose from in Minneapolis Qwest territory. A few providers also have their own DSLAMs for better reach or speed.

en102

Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26

Valencia, CA en102 to hottboiinnc4

Member to hottboiinnc4

Are you kidding me ?

DSL-Extreme, Sonic, Speakeasy, just to name a few are resellers of DSL, using their own network, but AT&T/VZ/Covad/Qwest for the last mile. backness

join:2005-07-08

K2P OW2 backness Member Open message to Bell Don't mess with my data!



I can't believe how mad this makes me!



This has to be the pinnacle of incompetence and mismanagement!



So that it's clear, Bell resells a service, most likely under contract, then when they realize that they would have to spend money to keep their paying customer happy (in this case Teksavvy) they instead decided to traffic shape an ISP!!! Also, its been stated in these forums before that Bell actually makes more money on the resellers! So, they take a profit center for the company and turn it into a big question mark.



Bell, please put your red rubber nose back one and big floppy shoes. Your talking beaver's aren't fooling anybody.

ShadPTR

join:2008-01-23

Whitby, ON ShadPTR Member For God's Sake I thought I was rid of them.. now the b-stards are at it again.

root9

join:2005-04-08

Kitchener, ON 4 edits 1 recommendation root9 Member The Full Picture; not just throttling or capping.

The ROTHSCHILD, Rockefeller, Morgan, Bush, Kissinger, Harper and many others are trying to provide information only of what they want. This means the same kind of censorship as China or worse. Any news that's against them will be treated as treason and punishable by prison or death as soon as or if SPP [Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America] comes into play.



This is not a fight against throttling/capping/shaping. It is a fight for our rights and what we can or can't communicate. The latest is that USA Telcos, big business and media have been attacking Canadian ISP's, Government and businesses with everything they have to "choke our freedom of speech" and sharing of information.



Back in Rogers startup days, the 80's and 90's, we had same problems. Any high bandwidth was choked, throttled [HTTP, FTP, large emails, encrypted protocols], blocked or discontinued [newsgroups]. We dug into why. It seems that old man Rogers is related to House of Windsor. Also highly connected to "Committee of 300".



These families want to control ALL content, such as TV, satellite, news, media, movies and even flyers that you may pass on in your neighborhood. The Internet has been a real pain to them since information flows quickly. They want to make the population dumb and disconnected from each other.



No, I'm not kidding. Do your own research. Find out who owns all large media companies and what their plans are. Find out what WTO [World Trade Organization] has planned. Find out how PM Harper is being controlled by USA, UK, Germany and others.



Good places to start:

Find videos and watch of EndGame - Blueprint For Global Enslavement, George Green - The Big Picture, Loose Change 2nd Edition, Wake up America - Dr. John Coleman, Zeitgeist and anything related as you find it. All these are available on Google video or as P2P downloads. Get them before they become blocked. Pass them on to your friends as well and learn.

And the best one of all:

»www.libertyforum.org/sho ··· 93835340



In speaking with Worldcom / UUNET and Maxihosting it's been said that there's enough Black Fiber [unused fiber just sitting there ready for use] and all households could have 15 Mbps downloads and 7 Mbps uploads with all Canadian users on at same time all day long without need of throttling what-so-ever! Black fiber is being saved for WWW2 and big business use.



All negative things said here about not being able to provide speeds are false! The only visible problem is that all major Canadian ISP's have not repaired the last mile copper to homes and small businesses. The people that will have HDTV and movies on demand will loose out on Internet services due to only so much being able to come across copper wire. Add phone or other services and I guarantee you will be stuck in browsing and email only mode very soon.



What you can do to stop throttling: Complain and complain continuously [daily basis] to



CRTC »

Competition Bureau »

Local MP's, PM's of all provinces:

mpremier@gov.ab.ca

premier@gov.bc.ca

premier@leg.gov.mb.ca

Premier@gnb.ca

premier@gov.nl.ca

floyd_roland@gov.nt.ca

premier@gov.ns.ca

rwjghiz@gov.pe.ca

premier@gov.sk.ca

dennis.fentie@gov.yk.ca

compbureau@cb-bc.gc.ca

info@ccts-cprst.ca

infomgs@mgs.gov.on.ca

ccbbb@canadiancouncilbbb.ca

»www.premier.gov.on.ca/fe ··· back.asp

»www.premier.gouv.qc.ca/p ··· en.shtml

Honourable Jim Prentice CorrespondenceMinister@ic.gc.ca

... EXPOSE THEM at least.



Charge / invoice your ISP for lost bandwidth, time out of your day, for infringing of your privacy laws and connection speeds [small business rates are around 30 to 60 per hour].

i.e. any packet that's being throttled needs to be opened. This is illegal in Canada since each packet is like a piece of snail mail, private. No Canadian ISP has the search warrant or authority to open or block any packet below what you pay for. Sending a reset packet is also illegal since it's telling both parties they don't exist when they actually do.



The control freaks have declared war on you and the general population, do something!



Senior Network and Systems Analyst In short:The ROTHSCHILD, Rockefeller, Morgan, Bush, Kissinger, Harper and many others are trying to provide information only of what they want. This means the same kind of censorship as China or worse. Any news that's against them will be treated as treason and punishable by prison or death as soon as or if SPP [Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America] comes into play.This is not a fight against throttling/capping/shaping. It is a fight for our rights and what we can or can't communicate. The latest is that USA Telcos, big business and media have been attacking Canadian ISP's, Government and businesses with everything they have to "choke our freedom of speech" and sharing of information.Back in Rogers startup days, the 80's and 90's, we had same problems. Any high bandwidth was choked, throttled [HTTP, FTP, large emails, encrypted protocols], blocked or discontinued [newsgroups]. We dug into why. It seems that old man Rogers is related to House of Windsor. Also highly connected to "Committee of 300".These families want to control ALL content, such as TV, satellite, news, media, movies and even flyers that you may pass on in your neighborhood. The Internet has been a real pain to them since information flows quickly. They want to make the population dumb and disconnected from each other.No, I'm not kidding. Do your own research. Find out who owns all large media companies and what their plans are. Find out what WTO [World Trade Organization] has planned. Find out how PM Harper is being controlled by USA, UK, Germany and others.Good places to start:Find videos and watch of EndGame - Blueprint For Global Enslavement, George Green - The Big Picture, Loose Change 2nd Edition, Wake up America - Dr. John Coleman, Zeitgeist and anything related as you find it. All these are available on Google video or as P2P downloads. Get them before they become blocked. Pass them on to your friends as well and learn.And the best one of all:In speaking with Worldcom / UUNET and Maxihosting it's been said that there's enough Black Fiber [unused fiber just sitting there ready for use] and all households could have 15 Mbps downloads and 7 Mbps uploads with all Canadian users on at same time all day long without need of throttling what-so-ever! Black fiber is being saved for WWW2 and big business use.All negative things said here about not being able to provide speeds are false! The only visible problem is that all major Canadian ISP's have not repaired the last mile copper to homes and small businesses. The people that will have HDTV and movies on demand will loose out on Internet services due to only so much being able to come across copper wire. Add phone or other services and I guarantee you will be stuck in browsing and email only mode very soon.What you can do to stop throttling: Complain and complain continuously [daily basis] toCRTC » www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/welcome.htm Competition Bureau » www.competitionbureau.gc ··· /en/Home Local MP's, PM's of all provinces:mpremier@gov.ab.capremier@gov.bc.capremier@leg.gov.mb.caPremier@gnb.capremier@gov.nl.cafloyd_roland@gov.nt.capremier@gov.ns.carwjghiz@gov.pe.capremier@gov.sk.cadennis.fentie@gov.yk.cacompbureau@cb-bc.gc.cainfo@ccts-cprst.cainfomgs@mgs.gov.on.caccbbb@canadiancouncilbbb.caHonourable Jim Prentice CorrespondenceMinister@ic.gc.ca... EXPOSE THEM at least.Charge / invoice your ISP for lost bandwidth, time out of your day, for infringing of your privacy laws and connection speeds [small business rates are around 30 to 60 per hour].i.e. any packet that's being throttled needs to be opened. This is illegal in Canada since each packet is like a piece of snail mail, private. No Canadian ISP has the search warrant or authority to open or block any packet below what you pay for. Sending a reset packet is also illegal since it's telling both parties they don't exist when they actually do.The control freaks have declared war on you and the general population, do something!Senior Network and Systems Analyst

guitarzan

Premium Member

join:2004-05-04

Skytop, PA guitarzan Premium Member Re: The Full Picture; not just throttling or capping. said by root9:



In short:

The Rockefeller, Morgan, Bush, Kissinger, Harper and many others are trying to provide information only of what they want. This means the same kind of censorship as China or worse. Any news that's against them will be treated as treason and punishable by prison or death as soon as SPP [Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America] comes into play. In short:The Rockefeller, Morgan, Bush, Kissinger, Harper and many others are trying to provide information only of what they want. This means the same kind of censorship as China or worse. Any news that's against them will be treated as treason and punishable by prison or death as soon as SPP [Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America] comes into play. said by root9:



This is not a fight against throttling/capping/shaping. It is a fight for our rights and what we can or can't communicate. The latest is that USA Telcos, big business and media have been attacking Canadian ISP's, Government and businesses with everything they have to "choke our freedom of speech" and sharing of information.



It seems that old man Rogers is related to House of Windsor. Also highly connected to "Committee of 300".



These families want to control ALL content, such as TV, satellite, news, media, movies and even flyers that you may pass on in your neighborhood. The Internet has been a real pain to them since information flows quickly. They want to make the population dumb and disconnected from each other.



No, I'm not kidding. Do your own research. Find out who owns all large media companies and what their plans are. Find out what WTO [World Trade Organization] has planned. Find out how PM Harper is being controlled by USA, UK, Germany and others.



Good places to start:

Find videos and watch of EndGame - Blueprint For Global Enslavement, George Green - The Big Picture, Loose Change 2nd Edition, Wake up America - Dr. John Coleman, Zeitgeist and anything related as you find it. All these are available on Google video or as P2P downloads. Get them before they become blocked. Pass them on to your friends as well and learn.



The control freaks have declared war on you and the general population, do something! This is not a fight against throttling/capping/shaping. It is a fight for our rights and what we can or can't communicate. The latest is that USA Telcos, big business and media have been attacking Canadian ISP's, Government and businesses with everything they have to "choke our freedom of speech" and sharing of information.It seems that old man Rogers is related to House of Windsor. Also highly connected to "Committee of 300".These families want to control ALL content, such as TV, satellite, news, media, movies and even flyers that you may pass on in your neighborhood. The Internet has been a real pain to them since information flows quickly. They want to make the population dumb and disconnected from each other.No, I'm not kidding. Do your own research. Find out who owns all large media companies and what their plans are. Find out what WTO [World Trade Organization] has planned. Find out how PM Harper is being controlled by USA, UK, Germany and others.Good places to start:Find videos and watch of EndGame - Blueprint For Global Enslavement, George Green - The Big Picture, Loose Change 2nd Edition, Wake up America - Dr. John Coleman, Zeitgeist and anything related as you find it. All these are available on Google video or as P2P downloads. Get them before they become blocked. Pass them on to your friends as well and learn.The control freaks have declared war on you and the general population, do something!



Take for example McCain raised $11 million for his campaign. Shillary raised 25 million. Obama raised $55 million. More than the other two put together. Want to guess where that $55 million came from? Sure as hell was not from people with homes in foreclosure. It came from big business and special interest groups. quote: NSPD-51

(23) Annex A and the classified Continuity Annexes, attached hereto, are hereby incorporated into and made a part of this directive.



(24) Security. This directive and the information contained herein shall be protected from unauthorized disclosure, provided that, except for Annex A, the Annexes attached to this directive are classified and shall be accorded appropriate handling, consistent with applicable Executive Orders Paraphrased quote: We could recover from a disaster but we would never recover from the "continuity coordination" that followed, "coordination" which would forever undermine any faith in the actual continuity of constitutional liberty in America since it would be at the mercy of any president who wants to "coordinate continuity" rather than govern legally. Bush Makes Power Grab

President Bush, without so much as issuing a press statement, on May 9, 2006 signed a directive that granted near dictatorial powers to the office of the president in the event of a national emergency declared by the president.



The "National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive," with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, establishes under the office of president a new National Continuity Coordinator.



That job, as the document describes, is to make plans for "National Essential Functions" of all federal, state, local, territorial, and tribal governments, as well as private sector organizations to continue functioning under the president's directives in the event of a national emergency.



The directive loosely defines "catastrophic emergency" as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."



»www.ww4report.com/node/3940



Translated into layman's terms, when the President determines a national emergency has occurred, the President can declare to the office of the presidency powers usually assumed by dictators to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is declared over.



Ironically, the directive sees no contradiction in the assumption of dictatorial powers by the President with the goal of maintaining constitutional continuity through an emergency.



The directive issued May 9 makes no attempt to reconcile the powers created there for the National Continuity Coordinator with the National Emergency Act. As specified by U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 34, Subchapter II, Section 1621, the National Emergency Act allows that the president may declare a national emergency but requires that such proclamation "shall immediately be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register."



A Congressional Research Service study notes that under the National Emergency Act, the President "may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens."



The CRS study notes that the National Emergency Act sets up congress as a balance empowered to "modify, rescind, or render dormant such delegated emergency authority," if Congress believes the president has acted inappropriately.



NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 appears to supersede the National Emergency Act by creating the new position of National Continuity Coordinator without any specific act of Congress authorizing the position.



NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 also makes no reference whatsoever to Congress. The language of the May 9 directive appears to negate any a requirement that the President submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists, suggesting instead that the powers of the executive order can be implemented without any congressional approval or oversight.



»www.ww4report.com/node/2710



BUSH MOVES TOWARD MARTIAL LAW



2007 Defense Authorization Act Guts Posse Comitatus



by Frank Morales, WW4 REPORT



In a stealth maneuver, President Bush has signed into law a provision which, according to Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont), "will actually encourage the President to declare federal martial law." It does so by revising the Insurrection Act of 1807, a set of laws that limits the president's ability to deploy troops within the United States. The Insurrection Act (10 U.S.C.331- 335) has historically, along with the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 (18 U.S.C.1385), helped to enforce strict prohibitions on military involvement in domestic law enforcement. With one cloaked swipe of his pen, Bush has done much to undo those prohibitions.



Public Law 109-364, or the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 (H.R.5122), which was signed on October 17 in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the president to declare a "public emergency," station troops anywhere in the United States, and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder."



President Bush seized this unprecedented power on the very same day that he signed the equally odious Military Commissions Act of 2006. In a sense, the two laws complement one another. One allows for torture and detention abroad, while the other seeks to enforce acquiescence at home, allowing the commander-in-chief to order the military onto the streets. Although not invoked in the legislation, the term for putting an area under military rule is "martial law."



Section 1076 of the massive Authorization Act, which grants the Pentagon another $500-plus billion for its global adventures, is entitled "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies." Section 333, "Major public emergencies; interference with State and Federal law " states that "the President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order" in order to "suppress, in any State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy."



In short, this allows the president to commandeer guardsmen from any state, over the objections of the local government, ship them off to another state, conscript them in a law enforcement and set them loose against "disorderly" citizenry protesters, possibly, or those who object to forced vaccinations and quarantines in the event of a bio-terror event.



It is particularly ominous that the law follows new contracts for construction of emergency detention facilities. An article on "recent contract awards" in the summer issue of the slick, insider Journal of Counter terrorism & Homeland Security International reported that "global engineering and technical services powerhouse KBR [Kellog, Brown & Root] announced in January 2006 that its Government and Infrastructure division was awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract to support US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) facilities in the event of an emergency.... With a maximum total value of $385 million over a five year term, the contract is to be executed by the US Army Corps of Engineers...for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations(DRO)in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the US, or to support the rapid development of new programs." The report points out that "KBR is the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton."



So in addition to authorizing another $532.8 billion for the Pentagon including a $70 billion "supplemental provision" which covers the cost of the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan the new law further collapses the historic divide between the police and the military.



The Posse Comitatus Act reads: "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus [deputized law enforcement] or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both." It is the only US criminal statute that outlaws military operations directed against the American people under the cover of "law enforcement." It has been held as the citizenry's the best protection against the power-hungry intentions of an unscrupulous and reckless executive intent on using force to impose its will. It has now been dealt a near-fatal blow.



Despite the unprecedented nature of this act, there has been no outcry in the American media, and little reaction from our elected officials in Congress. On September 19, a lone Senator Leahy noted that 2007s Defense Authorization Act contained a "widely opposed provision to allow the President more control over the National Guard [adopting] changes to the Insurrection Act, which will make it easier for this or any future President to use the military to restore domestic order WITHOUT the consent of the nation's governors.



In other words, the law facilitates the "transfer" of the newest in so-called "crowd control" technology and other weaponry from the Pentagon to local militarized police units. The new law builds on and further codifies earlier "technology transfer" agreements, specifically the 1995 DOD-Justice Department memorandum of agreement achieved back during the Clinton-Reno administration.



Halliburton wins concentration camp contract

»ww4report.com/node/1940

Submitted by Bill Weinberg on Mon, 05/08/2006 - 16:50.



We wish we were joking. What a shame nobody noticed this the little note in the second section about the Halliburton contract (emphasis added) should have been front-page news in every paper in the country. Back on Feb. 23, Nat Perry of Consortium News wrote for AlterNet:



Bush's Mysterious 'New Programs'

Is the Pentagon building U.S.-based prison camps for Muslim immigrants? Evidence points to the possibility.



Not that George W. Bush needs much encouragement, but Sen. Lindsey Graham suggested to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales a new target for the administration's domestic operations Fifth Columnists, supposedly disloyal Americans who sympathize and collaborate with the enemy.



"The administration has not only the right, but the duty, in my opinion, to pursue Fifth Column movements," Graham, R-S.C., told Gonzales during Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Feb. 6.



"I stand by this president's ability, inherent to being commander in chief, to find out about Fifth Column movements, and I don't think you need a warrant to do that," Graham added, volunteering to work with the administration to draft guidelines for how best to neutralize this alleged threat.



Labor camps



There also was another little-noticed item posted at the U.S. Army website, about the Pentagon's Civilian Inmate Labor Program. This program "provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations."



The Army document, first drafted in 1997, underwent a "rapid action revision" on Jan. 14, 2005. The revision provides a "template for developing agreements" between the Army and corrections facilities for the use of civilian inmate labor on Army installations.



Pentagon surveillance



Despite the Posse Comitatus Act's prohibitions against U.S. military personnel engaging in domestic law enforcement, the Pentagon has expanded its operations beyond previous boundaries, such as its role in domestic surveillance activities.



Homeland defense



As the administration scoops up more and more names, members of Congress also have questioned the elasticity of Bush's definitions for words like terrorist "affiliates," used to justify wiretapping Americans allegedly in contact with such people or entities.



The Pentagon strategy paper calls for increased military reconnaissance and surveillance to "defeat potential challengers before they threaten the United States." The plan "maximizes threat awareness and seizes the initiative from those who would harm us."



But there are concerns over how the Pentagon judges "threats" and who falls under the category "those who would harm us." A Pentagon official said the Counterintelligence Field Activity's TALON program has amassed files on antiwar protesters.



In December [15] 2005, NBC News revealed the existence of a secret 400-page Pentagon document listing 1,500 "suspicious incidents" over a 10-month period, including dozens of small antiwar demonstrations that were classified as a "threat."



The Defense Department also might be moving toward legitimizing the use of propaganda domestically, as part of its overall war strategy.



A secret Pentagon "Information Operations Roadmap," approved by Rumsfeld in October 2003, calls for "full spectrum" information operations and notes that "information intended for foreign audiences, including public diplomacy and PSYOP, increasingly is consumed by our domestic audience and vice versa."



The Department of Homeland Security also has demonstrated a tendency to deploy military operatives to deal with domestic crises.



In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the department dispatched "heavily armed paramilitary from the Blackwater private security firm, (and had them) openly patrolling the streets of New Orleans," reported journalists Jeremy Scahill and Daniela Crespo on Sept. 10, 2005.



Noting the reputation of the Blackwater as "some of the most feared professional killers in the world," Scahill and Crespo said Blackwater's presence in New Orleans "raises alarming questions about why the government would allow men trained to kill with impunity in places like Iraq and Afghanistan to operate here."



For any American citizen suspected of collaborating with terrorists, Bush also revealed what's in store. In May 2002, the FBI arrested U.S. citizen Jose Padilla in Chicago on suspicion that he might be an al-Qaida operative planning an attack.



Rather than bring criminal charges, Bush designated Padilla an "enemy combatant" and had him imprisoned indefinitely without benefit of due process. After three years, the administration finally brought charges against Padilla, in order to avoid a Supreme Court showdown the White House might have lost.



But since the court was not able to rule on the Padilla case, the administration's arguments have not been formally repudiated. Indeed, despite filing charges against Padilla, the White House still asserts the right to detain U.S. citizens without charges as enemy combatants.



HALLIBURTON GETS DETENTION CONTRACT



KBR, the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton Co., announced on Jan. 24 that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has awarded KBR a five-year $385 million "Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity" (IDIQ) contingency contract to support ICE facilities in the event of an emergency. The contract, effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the US, or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said. The contract may also provide immigrant detention support to other government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, the company said. The competitively awarded contract will be executed by the US Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005. [MarketWatch 1/24/06; Business Wire 1/24/06]



While General Hayden has extensive administrative experience, he would face daunting challenges at the C.I.A., an agency that has been demoralized and has endured turbulence since the mid-1990's. As N.S.A. director until last year, General Hayden oversaw the program to intercept international phone calls and e-mail messages of Americans and others in the United States believed to have links to Al Qaeda.



General Hayden, 61, has been the program's most public defender, repeatedly asserting that it is legal and constitutional even though the eavesdropping is done without warrants from a special court set up in 1978 to authorize such surveillance.



"I've taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States," General Hayden said at the National Press Club in January as he defended what the Bush administration calls the Terrorist Surveillance Program. "I would never violate that Constitution, nor would I abuse the rights of the American people."



Supports warrant-less wiretaps and says he upholds the Constitution. Lucky for him, most of the citizenry doesn't have a clue what the document actually says.



Guys don't worry this is for your protection



"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." -Hitler



"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000



10th Amendment: Powers are granted to each branch of government, and then specifies that anything not delegated to the government is the Rights reserved by the governed, the people



Like Bush, himself said, "The Constitution is just a gosh damned piece of paper"...



So too are his "directives" - just pieces of paper.



Stock up on food, water, ammo, guns, clothing, cash, silver, gold. Be prepared! Google North American Union and the Vchip. It however is much worse than one can imagine.Google NSPD-51. Big business is running government and has been. How will the one world government be brought about? By letting business run government and letting a private bank (federal Reserve)control money, that is how.Take for example McCain raised $11 million for his campaign. Shillary raised 25 million. Obama raised $55 million. More than the other two put together. Want to guess where that $55 million came from? Sure as hell was not from people with homes in foreclosure. It came from big business and special interest groups.ParaphrasedBush Makes Power GrabPresident Bush, without so much as issuing a press statement, on May 9, 2006 signed a directive that granted near dictatorial powers to the office of the president in the event of a national emergency declared by the president.The "National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive," with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, establishes under the office of president a new National Continuity Coordinator.That job, as the document describes, is to make plans for "National Essential Functions" of all federal, state, local, territorial, and tribal governments, as well as private sector organizations to continue functioning under the president's directives in the event of a national emergency.The directive loosely defines "catastrophic emergency" as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."Translated into layman's terms, when the President determines a national emergency has occurred, the President can declare to the office of the presidency powers usually assumed by dictators to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is declared over.Ironically, the directive sees no contradiction in the assumption of dictatorial powers by the President with the goal of maintaining constitutional continuity through an emergency.The directive issued May 9 makes no attempt to reconcile the powers created there for the National Continuity Coordinator with the National Emergency Act. As specified by U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 34, Subchapter II, Section 1621, the National Emergency Act allows that the president may declare a national emergency but requires that such proclamation "shall immediately be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register."A Congressional Research Service study notes that under the National Emergency Act, the President "may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens."The CRS study notes that the National Emergency Act sets up congress as a balance empowered to "modify, rescind, or render dormant such delegated emergency authority," if Congress believes the president has acted inappropriately.NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 appears to supersede the National Emergency Act by creating the new position of National Continuity Coordinator without any specific act of Congress authorizing the position.NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 also makes no reference whatsoever to Congress. The language of the May 9 directive appears to negate any a requirement that the President submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists, suggesting instead that the powers of the executive order can be implemented without any congressional approval or oversight.BUSH MOVES TOWARD MARTIAL LAW2007 Defense Authorization Act Guts Posse Comitatusby Frank Morales, WW4 REPORTIn a stealth maneuver, President Bush has signed into law a provision which, according to Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont), "will actually encourage the President to declare federal martial law." It does so by revising the Insurrection Act of 1807, a set of laws that limits the president's ability to deploy troops within the United States. The Insurrection Act (10 U.S.C.331- 335) has historically, along with the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 (18 U.S.C.1385), helped to enforce strict prohibitions on military involvement in domestic law enforcement. With one cloaked swipe of his pen, Bush has done much to undo those prohibitions.Public Law 109-364, or the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 (H.R.5122), which was signed on October 17 in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the president to declare a "public emergency," station troops anywhere in the United States, and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder."President Bush seized this unprecedented power on the very same day that he signed the equally odious Military Commissions Act of 2006. In a sense, the two laws complement one another. One allows for torture and detention abroad, while the other seeks to enforce acquiescence at home, allowing the commander-in-chief to order the military onto the streets. Although not invoked in the legislation, the term for putting an area under military rule is "martial law."Section 1076 of the massive Authorization Act, which grants the Pentagon another $500-plus billion for its global adventures, is entitled "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies." Section 333, "Major public emergencies; interference with State and Federal law " states that "the President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order" in order to "suppress, in any State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy."In short, this allows the president to commandeer guardsmen from any state, over the objections of the local government, ship them off to another state, conscript them in a law enforcement and set them loose against "disorderly" citizenry protesters, possibly, or those who object to forced vaccinations and quarantines in the event of a bio-terror event.It is particularly ominous that the law follows new contracts for construction of emergency detention facilities. An article on "recent contract awards" in the summer issue of the slick, insider Journal of Counter terrorism & Homeland Security International reported that "global engineering and technical services powerhouse KBR [Kellog, Brown & Root] announced in January 2006 that its Government and Infrastructure division was awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract to support US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) facilities in the event of an emergency.... With a maximum total value of $385 million over a five year term, the contract is to be executed by the US Army Corps of Engineers...for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations(DRO)in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the US, or to support the rapid development of new programs." The report points out that "KBR is the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton."So in addition to authorizing another $532.8 billion for the Pentagon including a $70 billion "supplemental provision" which covers the cost of the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan the new law further collapses the historic divide between the police and the military.The Posse Comitatus Act reads: "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus [deputized law enforcement] or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both." It is the only US criminal statute that outlaws military operations directed against the American people under the cover of "law enforcement." It has been held as the citizenry's the best protection against the power-hungry intentions of an unscrupulous and reckless executive intent on using force to impose its will. It has now been dealt a near-fatal blow.Despite the unprecedented nature of this act, there has been no outcry in the American media, and little reaction from our elected officials in Congress. On September 19, a lone Senator Leahy noted that 2007s Defense Authorization Act contained a "widely opposed provision to allow the President more control over the National Guard [adopting] changes to the Insurrection Act, which will make it easier for this or any future President to use the military to restore domestic order WITHOUT the consent of the nation's governors.In other words, the law facilitates the "transfer" of the newest in so-called "crowd control" technology and other weaponry from the Pentagon to local militarized police units. The new law builds on and further codifies earlier "technology transfer" agreements, specifically the 1995 DOD-Justice Department memorandum of agreement achieved back during the Clinton-Reno administration.Halliburton wins concentration camp contractSubmitted by Bill Weinberg on Mon, 05/08/2006 - 16:50.We wish we were joking. What a shame nobody noticed this the little note in the second section about the Halliburton contract (emphasis added) should have been front-page news in every paper in the country. Back on Feb. 23, Nat Perry of Consortium News wrote for AlterNet:Bush's Mysterious 'New Programs'Is the Pentagon building U.S.-based prison camps for Muslim immigrants? Evidence points to the possibility.Not that George W. Bush needs much encouragement, but Sen. Lindsey Graham suggested to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales a new target for the administration's domestic operations Fifth Columnists, supposedly disloyal Americans who sympathize and collaborate with the enemy."The administration has not only the right, but the duty, in my opinion, to pursue Fifth Column movements," Graham, R-S.C., told Gonzales during Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Feb. 6."I stand by this president's ability, inherent to being commander in chief, to find out about Fifth Column movements, and I don't think you need a warrant to do that," Graham added, volunteering to work with the administration to draft guidelines for how best to neutralize this alleged threat.Labor campsThere also was another little-noticed item posted at the U.S. Army website, about the Pentagon's Civilian Inmate Labor Program. This program "provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations."The Army document, first drafted in 1997, underwent a "rapid action revision" on Jan. 14, 2005. The revision provides a "template for developing agreements" between the Army and corrections facilities for the use of civilian inmate labor on Army installations.Pentagon surveillanceDespite the Posse Comitatus Act's prohibitions against U.S. military personnel engaging in domestic law enforcement, the Pentagon has expanded its operations beyond previous boundaries, such as its role in domestic surveillance activities.Homeland defenseAs the administration scoops up more and more names, members of Congress also have questioned the elasticity of Bush's definitions for words like terrorist "affiliates," used to justify wiretapping Americans allegedly in contact with such people or entities.The Pentagon strategy paper calls for increased military reconnaissance and surveillance to "defeat potential challengers before they threaten the United States." The plan "maximizes threat awareness and seizes the initiative from those who would harm us."But there are concerns over how the Pentagon judges "threats" and who falls under the category "those who would harm us." A Pentagon official said the Counterintelligence Field Activity's TALON program has amassed files on antiwar protesters.In December [15] 2005, NBC News revealed the existence of a secret 400-page Pentagon document listing 1,500 "suspicious incidents" over a 10-month period, including dozens of small antiwar demonstrations that were classified as a "threat."The Defense Department also might be moving toward legitimizing the use of propaganda domestically, as part of its overall war strategy.A secret Pentagon "Information Operations Roadmap," approved by Rumsfeld in October 2003, calls for "full spectrum" information operations and notes that "information intended for foreign audiences, including public diplomacy and PSYOP, increasingly is consumed by our domestic audience and vice versa."The Department of Homeland Security also has demonstrated a tendency to deploy military operatives to deal with domestic crises.In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the department dispatched "heavily armed paramilitary from the Blackwater private security firm, (and had them) openly patrolling the streets of New Orleans," reported journalists Jeremy Scahill and Daniela Crespo on Sept. 10, 2005.Noting the reputation of the Blackwater as "some of the most feared professional killers in the world," Scahill and Crespo said Blackwater's presence in New Orleans "raises alarming questions about why the government would allow men trained to kill with impunity in places like Iraq and Afghanistan to operate here."For any American citizen suspected of collaborating with terrorists, Bush also revealed what's in store. In May 2002, the FBI arrested U.S. citizen Jose Padilla in Chicago on suspicion that he might be an al-Qaida operative planning an attack.Rather than bring criminal charges, Bush designated Padilla an "enemy combatant" and had him imprisoned indefinitely without benefit of due process. After three years, the administration finally brought charges against Padilla, in order to avoid a Supreme Court showdown the White House might have lost.But since the court was not able to rule on the Padilla case, the administration's arguments have not been formally repudiated. Indeed, despite filing charges against Padilla, the White House still asserts the right to detain U.S. citizens without charges as enemy combatants.HALLIBURTON GETS DETENTION CONTRACTKBR, the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton Co., announced on Jan. 24 that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has awarded KBR a five-year $385 million "Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity" (IDIQ) contingency contract to support ICE facilities in the event of an emergency. The contract, effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the US, or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said. The contract may also provide immigrant detention support to other government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, the company said. The competitively awarded contract will be executed by the US Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005. [MarketWatch 1/24/06; Business Wire 1/24/06]While General Hayden has extensive administrative experience, he would face daunting challenges at the C.I.A., an agency that has been demoralized and has endured turbulence since the mid-1990's. As N.S.A. director until last year, General Hayden oversaw the program to intercept international phone calls and e-mail messages of Americans and others in the United States believed to have links to Al Qaeda.General Hayden, 61, has been the program's most public defender, repeatedly asserting that it is legal and constitutional even though the eavesdropping is done without warrants from a special court set up in 1978 to authorize such surveillance."I've taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States," General Hayden said at the National Press Club in January as he defended what the Bush administration calls the Terrorist Surveillance Program. "I would never violate that Constitution, nor would I abuse the rights of the American people."Supports warrant-less wiretaps and says he upholds the Constitution. Lucky for him, most of the citizenry doesn't have a clue what the document actually says.Guys don't worry this is for your protection"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." -Hitler"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 200010th Amendment: Powers are granted to each branch of government, and then specifies that anything not delegated to the government is the Rights reserved by the governed, the peopleLike Bush, himself said, "The Constitution is just a gosh damned piece of paper"...So too are his "directives" - just pieces of paper.Stock up on food, water, ammo, guns, clothing, cash, silver, gold. Be prepared!

root9

join:2005-04-08

Kitchener, ON root9 Member Re: The Full Picture; not just throttling or capping. Thank you for educating many Canadians on what's up in USA.



We already have similar problems here. Add free trade, NAFTA, SPP, rewriting of laws, lack of doctors, poisoned foods, implementation of CODEX, gun registry, corporate manipulation, plant closures and we are pretty close to same state as you. In deep s**t.

guitarzan

Premium Member

join:2004-05-04

Skytop, PA guitarzan Premium Member Re: The Full Picture; not just throttling or capping. said by root9:



Thank you for educating many Canadians on what's up in USA.



We already have similar problems here. Add free trade, NAFTA, SPP, rewriting of laws, lack of doctors, poisoned foods, implementation of CODEX, gun registry, corporate manipulation, plant closures and we are pretty close to same state as you. In deep s**t.

Thank you for educating many Canadians on what's up in USA.We already have similar problems here. Add free trade, NAFTA, SPP, rewriting of laws, lack of doctors, poisoned foods, implementation of CODEX, gun registry, corporate manipulation, plant closures and we are pretty close to same state as you. In deep s**t. SPP [Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America]. Is how they are going to merge Canada, U.S with Mexico to create the NAU. The border with Mexico has vanished already. I'm sure Canadians want to keep Canada, Canadian owned and separated from the U.S., so as to not lose your National Identity. Same here Tudmax, politicians here got this country into deep s**t as well. petecarlson

join:2004-11-06

Baltimore, MD petecarlson to guitarzan

Member to guitarzan

quote: Take for example McCain raised $11 million for his campaign. Shillary raised 25 million. Obama raised $55 million. More than the other two put together. Want to guess where that $55 million came from? Sure as hell was not from people with homes in foreclosure. It came from big business and special interest groups.

I don't know where this off-topic BS is coming from but is patently false. The vast majority of the 55 million raised so far in Q1 2008 has been from small donations. I don't have the time right now to add up Jan and Feb, but here is a sample from January:

"Baracks $28 million in online contributions came from more than 250,000 contributors. 90% were under $100. 40% were $25 or less, and 10,000 people gave $5 or $10 to the campaign"

»www.techcrunch.com/2008/ ··· f-total/

If you count my $25 donation as a "special interest" donation then you might have a point but we all know that isn't what you were saying. Do you care to retract this statement or to back it up with fact? Show me that even half of this money came from big business and special interest groups as you claim and I will donate $25 to the candidate of your choice. I don't know where this off-topic BS is coming from but is patently false. The vast majority of the 55 million raised so far in Q1 2008 has been from small donations. I don't have the time right now to add up Jan and Feb, but here is a sample from January:"Baracks $28 million in online contributions came from more than 250,000 contributors. 90% were under $100. 40% were $25 or less, and 10,000 people gave $5 or $10 to the campaign"If you count my $25 donation as a "special interest" donation then you might have a point but we all know that isn't what you were saying. Do you care to retract this statement or to back it up with fact? Show me that even half of this money came from big business and special interest groups as you claim and I will donate $25 to the candidate of your choice.

••• show 3 replies your moderator at work hidden :



Karl Bode

News Guy

join:2000-03-02 Karl Bode to guitarzan

News Guy to guitarzan

Veering way too far off-topic.... cowwoc

join:2007-05-19

Saint-Laurent, QC cowwoc to root9

Member to root9

Conspiracy theories



You need to separate your dislike for traffic shaping (which I share) from your conspiracy-theory dislike for governments in general.



Let's get our facts straight, shall we? For years now you can download tons of anti-government and pro-jihad videos online and no one will try to stop you. On the other hand, try posting a video that is said to be anti-Islam and you'll find yourself the target of death threats, legal threats and internet censorship faster than you can blink. Here is a recent example: »



If there is any sort of censorship going on in North America, it isn't in the direction you claim it is. If anything, I've seen the left censor the right but not the other way around. Try to even *hint* that Global Warming is a debatable topic and you'll see what I mean.



I'm not saying I personally believe one way or another. I am simply pointing out that in my experience people on the left have been censoring people on the right far more often in recent history than the other way around. Extremists on either end of the stick are a bad thing, period. Give me a break.You need to separate your dislike for traffic shaping (which I share) from your conspiracy-theory dislike for governments in general.Let's get our facts straight, shall we? For years now you can download tons of anti-government and pro-jihad videos online and no one will try to stop you. On the other hand, try posting a video that is said to be anti-Islam and you'll find yourself the target of death threats, legal threats and internet censorship faster than you can blink. Here is a recent example: » yro.slashdot.org/article ··· /1914238 If there is any sort of censorship going on in North America, it isn't in the direction you claim it is. If anything, I've seen the left censor the right but not the other way around. Try to even *hint* that Global Warming is a debatable topic and you'll see what I mean.I'm not saying I personally believe one way or another. I am simply pointing out that in my experience people on the left have been censoring people on the right far more often in recent history than the other way around. Extremists on either end of the stick are a bad thing, period.

Henry_17

@dsl.bell.ca Henry_17 Anon Re: Conspiracy theories I kind of expected this. I'm in the process of canceling a Bell Sympatico contract and the rep said even if I switch they are going to be throttling TekSavvy anyway soon. That was on the 10th.

arbytarby

@dsl.bell.ca arbytarby to root9

Anon to root9

Re: The Full Picture; not just throttling or capping. You just killed any credibility by citing Loose Change as a credible example of your claim. That "documentary" is full of holes and misinformation. patcat88

join:2002-04-05

Jamaica, NY patcat88 Member legal How is this possible? This is as legal as traffic shaping a Point to Point T1 line. As far as I understand/know (Im a american) the pair goes into the Teksavvy or its wholesaler's DSLAM, then onto Teksavvy's ATM or SONET or MPLS lines which are rented from BC. How can BC touch the ATM/SONET/MPLS lines? Don't the five nines just get invalidated since the line isn't spiting out what when into it anymore? zinc

Premium Member

join:2004-02-17

Kitchener, ON zinc Premium Member Re: legal It's not actually Teksavvy's ATM lines.



DSL user -> incumbent/wholesaler's DSLAM (e.g. Bell) -> Bell's ATM/ethernet/mpls/whatever network -> demarc point -> Teksavvy's 3x GbE -> Teksavvy's network



The throttling is being done within Bell's network, the question that's unknown is whether they're intentionally throttling Teksavvy clients, somehow based on protocol, or if their network is simply overloaded and throttling everyone.



AFAIK, Teksavvy has an SLO for network performance, so it's quite possible Bell is breaking that completely. As Rocky mentioned, "wait for Tuesday" when they actually have a meeting with Bell and figure out what's happening.



Personally, I'm speculating that they're throttling based on a user's usage pattern (e.g. constant max rate) because their trunk lines are overloaded, and possibly prioritizing their business clients' traffic above others.

JunkieXL1

join:2004-11-15

Canada! JunkieXL1 Member Not just TSI I think it's just not TekSavvy. I heard a couple of other wholesalers/resellers were being throttled too - Velcom may be? Someone please clarify.

Froggy

@teksavvy.com Froggy Anon Great country eh? Gee, i thought Russia was bad. My perception of that country has done a complete 360. SnakeSkin

join:2007-08-17

Scarborough, ON SnakeSkin Member Bell Canada Throttles Wholesalers Great country eh?? First we had the northern peso when the dollar dove to 62 cents US. Now we've put Russia to shame with policies more communist than anything seen there. My god!! If Comcast is being sued in America over a simple traffic shaping of upload speed what bell is doing should amount to a capital offence up here.

anonomous

@comcast.net anonomous Anon Sounds ! Always trying to screwover the consumer. And Man! Those caps seem pretty small ! Only 50 Gigabytes! Why do all the Canadian ISP have all those caps and bandwidth limits? like BELL Canada isn't much different from the Bells here in the U.S.! Always trying to screwover the consumer. And Man! Those caps seem pretty small! Only 50 Gigabytes! Why do all the Canadian ISP have all those caps and bandwidth limits?

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matradley

Premium Member

join:2003-07-03

Ottawa, ON matradley Premium Member Throtting = high latency On thing that upsets me about this throttling, as I saw when I used my Sympatico account, my other TCP/UDP connections suffer. The latency variant between each hop jumps between ~+20ms to 200 ms. It is not just BT suffering, other things like SFTP seems to be throttled back too. Luckily, I have access to a NEXXIA account at work to do some downloading during slow periods of the day.

Tbug

@kc.uwo.ca Tbug Anon Re: Throtting = high latency Bell is throttling ALL encrypted connections which includes SFTP, VPN, RDP, IMAP. They utilize the same vendor as Rogers to do their shaping/throttling (I got this info from a VP of Product Management for Bell) Once they started this crap, I noticed major fluctuations in RDP. Using RDP at 30kbps is ridiculous. The further problem is there is not set time when they throttle - it's just whenever "Network Congestion" is detected aka high use periods.

KPaul

join:2007-02-08 KPaul Member hmm who's up for a class action...



anyone?

Talon88

The One

join:2003-08-13

Toronto 1 edit Talon88 Member Anything we can do..? :::



Anything we can do..?

Or we can just sitting here only..?



:::

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Fnordy

@teksavvy.com Fnordy Anon Ick! I am trying to download the CBC show, and I am on Montreal-DSL aka Teksavvy, and I am only getting 30 kB/s, like everyone else. I'm in the Ottawa area.



But I also ftped the latest kernel (yes, I am one of those sickos who likes to compile their own Linux kernels) from kernel.org, I got throughput of over 450 kB/s. So it's not the network that is slow, it's the link somewhere betweeen me and those 100+ seeders that is throttling the connection. With that many seeds, 90% of them are in Canada, I should be maxing out my connection with 500+ kB/s or more.



Fnord

rusc

@nexicom.net rusc Anon Re: Ick! I don't know about dsl. Cable modem (Nexicom) north of Peterborough dl'd this in ~17 minutes at 6:30 pm.

Ramped up for about 10 minutes then finished at about 820 kB/s. Bell was trying to sell me broadband last week. Supposedly at 1 mB/s. Not planning on being disappointed.

Reed

@bigpipeinc.com Reed Anon make your own ISP Seems you folks are forgetting this is BELLs hardware/network..It's not public, it's not free to run, it's not yours to shape, it's bells. If you don't like it, spend a few million and get your own network up and running, buy that dark fibre in the ground, buy those edge devices, buy that "last mile" install for your customers..



The internet is not free, it's not a right, and until it becomes one, all us end users are SoL..

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verzonnen

@teksavvy.com verzonnen Anon maybe run p2p apps on non standard ports? Just a thought.....



BTW I am not a bt or any other p2p app user (except for skype) But throttling is not acceptable for any application, if my provider can not give me what I expect (or want), I will look for another one.



A very satisfied Texsavvy client, for now....

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Teksavvy user

@teksavvy.com Teksavvy user Anon Bring down the monthly fee, then If I am seeing the download speed drop from 500K to 25K, I should see a drop in the fee I'm paying per month. I could live with that.



I don't expect Teksavvy to lower the rates for us if Bell continues to charge them the same amount but for what is substantially less service. It sounds like Bell is trying to rile the Teksavvy customer base. Maybe Teksavvy has been too successful in scooping up disaffected Bell Sympatico users, and Bell is pulling out the big guns.

TorontonianRay

@dsl.bell.ca TorontonianRay Anon So what does this mean for an average Joe... ...who is looking for performance?



Pardon my crudeness, but will the people who have subscribed to Teksavvy, will be f*cked in the a** by Bell just like the people (like me) who are with Bell (and I am looking to change my connection) thanks to their speed throttling as a way of relentlessly trying to prevent competing ISPs go gain any sort of advantage?



It boils to my blood and makes me hate this monopoly of Bell in Canada. It's the customers who should matter most before the effing profit and yet Bell and Rogers (in mobile section), two of biggest companies are screwing with customers since they know how crippled we are without them.



Who is responsible for this mess? We are. And if we don't stop our blood-money sucking bastards right now and make them live up to their claims, things can only get worse.



This is a rant of a person, who doesn't deal with internet in details but looks at an overall result with reasonable understanding of internet tech jargon.



Thank you for your time ladies and gentlemen for your time.



With best regards,



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