The pressure applied by the Sydney church through the charities debate has raised the question of the access and sway it may enjoy under Australia's first Catholic Liberal prime minister and his Catholic-strong frontbench that includes Kevin Andrews, Barnaby Joyce, Joe Hockey, Malcolm Turnbull (a convert), Andrew Robb and Christopher Pyne. Labor senator Ursula Stephens has watched the campaigning over the commission at close quarters, including from her former position as parliamentary secretary for social inclusion, where she had responsibility for reform of charities regulation. A proud Catholic, she confirms heavy lobbying of both sides of politics, including by the national Catholic Bishops Conference and separately by the clearly more anti-regulation Sydney archdiocese. She says she had ''absolutely'' no doubt that Cardinal Pell's representatives had had a big influence on opposition family and human services spokesman Kevin Andrews' promise in mid-2012 to abolish the commission, well before Labor detailed its final, amended form in Parliament, a position he reiterated last week. ''I'm well aware that Sydney lobbied the opposition very hard on this issue, says Senator Stephens. ''They got to Kevin Andrews early.''

Across the Catholic Church is an array of views about the commission, and widespread concern about additional red tape and duplication in the early days of its operation. Paul O'Callaghan, the head of Melbourne-based Catholic Social Services, says the major church welfare agencies support a single national regulator, but want it to be of ''lighter touch'' in its work. Another senior church figure contrasts this with the Sydney archdiocese's breakaway lobbying, describing it as driven by ''fear and suspicion''. ''There are a few in the church, like Danny Casey, that are anti-commission, full stop.'' Over 20 years a string of commissions and committees has called for better regulation of Australia's $43 billion charitable sector. In 2010, the Productivity Commission slammed the regulation regime shared by the Australian Taxation Office, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and the states as too complex, too costly, and too short on transparency.

Labor's response was the new charities commission, which opened for business in January. It is meant to be a one-stop shop that keeps a register of charities - there are 60,000 large ones and 600,000 not-for-profit groups in all - helps them meet their obligations, and investigates them when they don't. Given the Liberals' ideological commitment to the idea of small government, suspicion about a national regulator is arguably consistent with the Liberal philosophy. Mr Andrews says Labor's commission is an unnecessary level of bureaucracy established to hunt down ''mischief'' it has never identified. ''We don't believe that any real mischief was made out to justify a whole new bureaucracy. It is total overkill for what is required for the charities sector,'' he says. Yet charity sector leaders such as World Vision's Tim Costello insist that, while the new commission has had teething problems, it is settling as an effective and efficient regulator of, and friend to, charities. ''The commission is actually working for us, and it gives the public confidence [in the spending of their donations],'' he says.

A survey last month of 1500 not-for-profit groups by online not-for-profit information agency Pro Bono Australia found 80 per cent supported the commission. And the Victorian and Tasmanian-based Churches of Christ Community Care has begun an online petition to save the commission, warning that the Coalition alternative would be ''an advisory body with no teeth''. That, say critics, appears to be the point. In an interview with The Sunday Age, Danny Casey acknowledges active lobbying of both sides of politics, but stresses that throughout, the church's main concern with Labor's commission has been additional red tape and duplication; not, as critics allege, the church's wish to avoid scrutiny of its finances. He stopped short of endorsing the Coalition's policy over Labor's. ''The one that gets support is the one that is able to reduce waste and red tape the fastest.'' Last week, Mr Andrews reiterated his intention to abolish the commission, to return to the old system of state and Tax Office regulation plus the establishment of a new centre for excellence for charities.

Politicians usually have ''stakeholders'' primed to support such bold moves. But when asked to identify the major agencies that support the Coalition's policy, Mr Andrews was unwilling to do so. On Friday Catholic Education Melbourne issued a statement of support for the Coalition's policy. It was sent to The Sunday Age by Cardinal Pell's Sydney office. But if Mr Andrews has enjoyed some spiritual guidance in his policymaking from Cardinal Pell, he is not alone. After its initial tabling in mid-2012, the charities legislation was repeatedly amended, with some of its more demanding reporting requirements removed, especially for churches. Notable among the changes was a watering-down of clauses requiring small religious bodies - local parishes - to account for their income.

Another was to remove the onus on organisations to prove they work in the public interest. The Sunday Age is aware of frustration among some Labor insiders that some of the amendments allowed the churches greater cover when, arguably, they should be facing more, not less, scrutiny. Senator Stephens says that, as Labor shaped its charities bill, the Catholic Church in particular pressed hard for modification in countless meetings with Assistant Treasurer David Bradbury. Did the church have a major hand in softening Labor's charities regime? ''Yes they had a victory there,'' says Senator Stephens.