Geiko Profile Blog Joined June 2010 France 1924 Posts #1 [G/D]Abusing Adepts





Hey guys,



Here's my little contribution to the LotV beta balance. I hear a lot of talk about how 1 base cheeses and all-ins are impossible to do in LotV, and also about how protoss is underpowered currently.



So I set myself a little challenge to play all my games exclusively on 1 base, using only mass adept builds and see where that gets me (some of you might remember me from that 3 rax to GM thread I made a couple of years back).



I use the same opening all match-ups, 2 gate fast 2 adepts, into 4 gate adept with adept shield upgrade.



[no scout]



13 pylon



14 gate with worker that pops out



*chronoboost probes once



15 gas with the worker that pops out



18 gate with the worker that pops out, and 3 on gas immediately



19 core with worker that pops out



19 gas



20 pylon



22 make 2 adepts and warpgate research.



*chrono warpgate continuously



more probes







vs Terran Variation

Robo



Twilight



2 x gates



Warprism



Adept upgrade



observer





You pressure their front with first adepts, then you warpprism elevator all your adepts in his main. From there on, it's pretty much gg.



Here's what former GSL code S runner-up oGsTOP had to say about this:



+ Show Spoiler +

Geiko vs oGsTOP:

Geiko vs oGsTOP: http://drop.sc/398902



vs Zerg Variation

Possibly the best matchup for adepts.



Twilight



2 x gates



Adept upgrade



DT shrine





With your first 2 adepts, you poke in their base. Queens should pop as you get there. If they don't have zerglings yet, go in for a couple of drone kills. Use the shades to distract opponent and escape with your adepts when zerglings pop out. If they already have lings, that means that they haven't droned up much and are expecting an all-in. Just wait it out and warp more adepts. Keep poking with shades and attack if they are not making enough units. Once shield upgrade finishes, you can go in for the kill. There are multiple ways to play it out, depends on what the zerg is doing. Snipe spores and go in with dts, go back and forth between bases and kill a couple drones every time. It's up to you. If he is massing roaches, don't worry, adepts do fine vs roaches. Just add a robo and get an observer.



Closing comment from arguably one of the best Zerg playing the beta currently:



+ Show Spoiler +

Geiko vs ViBE:

Geiko vs MACHINE:

Geiko vs neuro:

(I actually tell this guys I'm going to go for 1 base mass adept into dts after 4 times of doing the same build against him and still win)

Geiko vs ViBE: http://drop.sc/398903 Geiko vs MACHINE: http://drop.sc/398904 Geiko vs neuro: http://drop.sc/398907 (I actually tell this guys I'm going to go for 1 base mass adept into dts after 4 times of doing the same build against him and still win)



vs Protoss Variation





(your second pylon should be build at the ramp)



Twilight



2 x gates (full wall off)



Adept upgrade



DT shrine





It's important to wall off against toss because popular builds will get 2 adpets in your base and 2 at home to defend. Adepts in your probe line usually = gg. My build uses only 2 adepts early game to get faster shield upgrade so wall off is necessary.



Basically plays itself out. Harass, scout and take the engagement when upgrade finishes. Watch out for protoss with unsually low unit count. it's either DTs or proxy oracle. 2 stalkers in mineral line and proxy robo is a good safety measure. If he really is going for dts, then it's a base race and you'll win if you get an obs out in time.





Short interview with NightEnD about this build:



+ Show Spoiler +

Geiko vs NightEnD:

Geiko vs NightEnD 2:

Geiko vs NightEnD: http://drop.sc/398905 Geiko vs NightEnD 2: http://drop.sc/398906





Closing thoughts

Adepts are very fun to play with. The shade ability is a lot more than a modified blink, it allows you to bypass defenses, control ennemy movement and is a great escape mechanism. They are extremely tanky once the shield upgrade is finished and allow for a lot more strategical decisions as fights aren't over in 10 seconds.



They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.



Nonetheless, I think I succeeded in abusing this unit. I'm pretty much on top (at least very high for my true skill) of the unranked mmr ladder with something like 100-60 win ratio. And have beaten all the pro players / GM players I've played at least once or twice.



Thank you for reading my little brag guide and have fun with the beta !

Hey guys,Here's my little contribution to the LotV beta balance. I hear a lot of talk about how 1 base cheeses and all-ins are impossible to do in LotV, and also about how protoss is underpowered currently.So I set myself a little challenge to play all my games exclusively on 1 base, using only mass adept builds and see where that gets me (some of you might remember me from that 3 rax to GM thread I made a couple of years back).I use the same opening all match-ups, 2 gate fast 2 adepts, into 4 gate adept with adept shield upgrade.You pressure their front with first adepts, then you warpprism elevator all your adepts in his main. From there on, it's pretty much gg.Here's what former GSL code S runner-up oGsTOP had to say about this:Possibly the best matchup for adepts.With your first 2 adepts, you poke in their base. Queens should pop as you get there. If they don't have zerglings yet, go in for a couple of drone kills. Use the shades to distract opponent and escape with your adepts when zerglings pop out. If they already have lings, that means that they haven't droned up much and are expecting an all-in. Just wait it out and warp more adepts. Keep poking with shades and attack if they are not making enough units. Once shield upgrade finishes, you can go in for the kill. There are multiple ways to play it out, depends on what the zerg is doing. Snipe spores and go in with dts, go back and forth between bases and kill a couple drones every time. It's up to you. If he is massing roaches, don't worry, adepts do fine vs roaches. Just add a robo and get an observer.Closing comment from arguably one of the best Zerg playing the beta currently:It's important to wall off against toss because popular builds will get 2 adpets in your base and 2 at home to defend. Adepts in your probe line usually = gg. My build uses only 2 adepts early game to get faster shield upgrade so wall off is necessary.Basically plays itself out. Harass, scout and take the engagement when upgrade finishes. Watch out for protoss with unsually low unit count. it's either DTs or proxy oracle. 2 stalkers in mineral line and proxy robo is a good safety measure. If he really is going for dts, then it's a base race and you'll win if you get an obs out in time.Short interview with NightEnD about this build:Adepts are very fun to play with. The shade ability is a lot more than a modified blink, it allows you to bypass defenses, control ennemy movement and is a great escape mechanism. They are extremely tanky once the shield upgrade is finished and allow for a lot more strategical decisions as fights aren't over in 10 seconds.They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.Nonetheless, I think I succeeded in abusing this unit. I'm pretty much on top (at least very high for my true skill) of the unranked mmr ladder with something like 100-60 win ratio. And have beaten all the pro players / GM players I've played at least once or twice.Thank you for reading my little brag guide and have fun with the beta ! geiko.813 (EU)

ZenithM Profile Joined February 2011 France 15950 Posts #2 I like it!

BronzeKnee Profile Joined March 2011 United States 5110 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 15:45:59 #3 On May 14 2015 23:35 Geiko wrote:



They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.







Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves that can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.



Nice build. Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves that can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.Nice build.

Xinzoe Profile Joined January 2014 Korea (South) 2359 Posts #4 amazing. and everything lines up well

TronJovolta Profile Joined April 2013 United States 323 Posts #5 On May 15 2015 00:26 BronzeKnee wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 14 2015 23:35 Geiko wrote:



They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.







Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.



Nice build. Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.Nice build.



Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad. Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad.

DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts #6 On May 15 2015 00:43 TronJovolta wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2015 00:26 BronzeKnee wrote:

On May 14 2015 23:35 Geiko wrote:



They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.







Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.



Nice build. Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.Nice build.



Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad. Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad.



I think he means can't be scouted or else they fail.



Also, to OP, nice haha.



I did this off 2 bases. Not as allin and you can transition into disruptors etc. I think he means can't be scouted or else they fail.Also, to OP, nice haha.I did this off 2 bases. Not as allin and you can transition into disruptors etc. "Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

BronzeKnee Profile Joined March 2011 United States 5110 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 16:16:54 #7 On May 15 2015 00:50 DinoMight wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2015 00:43 TronJovolta wrote:

On May 15 2015 00:26 BronzeKnee wrote:

On May 14 2015 23:35 Geiko wrote:



They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.







Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.



Nice build. Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.Nice build.



Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad. Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad.



I think he means can't be scouted or else they fail.



I think he means can't be scouted or else they fail.



Bingo.



The big problem is that people open blindly going for those builds, there is no in game strategic choice to being made, it is literally gambling. And that is dumb.



You have plenty of time to scout and make a read, and then go for this build if you open up in a standard way. You aren't trapped into doing it as soon as the game begins. It is (or at least can be) a strategic choice.



We need so much more of this in SC2 to make the early game exciting. It is what made WOL in 2011 so exciting.



But Blizzard and also map makers have been forcing it out of the game because it is difficult to balance. Doing what is hard is how great things are done though.



On May 15 2015 00:50 DinoMight wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 15 2015 00:43 TronJovolta wrote:

On May 15 2015 00:26 BronzeKnee wrote:

On May 14 2015 23:35 Geiko wrote:



They don't seem overpowered as is, and the existence of powerful 4 gates openings is a good thing to keep other races from being too greedy.







Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.



Nice build. Blizzard won't see it that way, but the return of any legitimate one base play that isn't based on blind moves and can't be scouted (proxy 2 gate, 6 pool, proxy 2 rax ect....) is very good for the game.Nice build.



Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad. Actually all of those can be scouted. You're just bad.





I did this off 2 bases. Not as allin and you can transition into disruptors etc. I did this off 2 bases. Not as allin and you can transition into disruptors etc.



Standard macro play is built on the roots of good all-ins. It goes from one base, to two, maybe to three and then becomes part of standard play. Bingo.The big problem is that people open blindly going for those builds, there is no in game strategic choice to being made, it is literally gambling. And that is dumb.You have plenty of time to scout and make a read, and then go for this build if you open up in a standard way. You aren't trapped into doing it as soon as the game begins. It is (or at least can be) a strategic choice.We need so much more of this in SC2 to make the early game exciting. It is what made WOL in 2011 so exciting.But Blizzard and also map makers have been forcing it out of the game because it is difficult to balance. Doing what is hard is how great things are done though.Standard macro play is built on the roots of good all-ins. It goes from one base, to two, maybe to three and then becomes part of standard play.

PowerOfOne Profile Joined February 2013 Peru 78 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 16:12:42 #8 Have you had the chance to test your build against reactor hellion openers? How well do Adepts fair against Hellions in general? At what time do your first two adepts hit the terran base?

Lexender Profile Joined September 2013 Mexico 2574 Posts #9 On May 15 2015 01:11 PowerOfOne wrote:

Have you had the chance to test your build against reactor hellion openers? How well do Adepts fair against Hellions in general? At what time do your first two adepts hit the terran base?



Adepts destroy hellions. Adepts destroy hellions.

LarJarsE Profile Blog Joined August 2009 United States 1373 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 16:51:47 #10 I saw you vs Neuro yesterday when he was streaming. He looked helpless vs your adept build! You even warned him! since 98'

Abradix1 Profile Joined November 2012 Netherlands 599 Posts #11 I played you yesterday aswell, I got wrecked by this build two or three times in a row. As you said, perhaps keeping roaches in the mineral line would help against this, I remember investing in fairly early ling speed both games where I knew it was coming to try and counterattack. Didn't quite help since by the time your pylons go down you can warp in some adepts in your base to stop the lings.



If we meet again I'm going to try and ignore lings completely and just going straight for roaches, I have the feeling roaches will just tickle adepts in small numbers and I wont have time to get big numbers since the adepts get there so incredibly fast.

knOxStarcraft Profile Joined March 2012 Canada 418 Posts #12 How can you say something is balanced when you continually beat far better players than you doing a 1 base all in the other player knows is coming? Builds like this is why protoss is stupid, all ins are a staple for the race, not high risk high reward like they should be.

Beelzebub1 Profile Joined May 2015 641 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 17:28:49 #13 Haha, this seems obnoxious but at least somebody proved me wrong, I thought Adepts were going to be useless but they look pretty damn good in these scenarios, hopefully they are useful for things other then all ins though.





BronzeKnee Profile Joined March 2011 United States 5110 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 17:49:47 #14 On May 15 2015 02:16 knOxStarcraft wrote:

How can you say something is balanced when you continually beat far better players than you doing a 1 base all in the other player knows is coming? Builds like this is why protoss is stupid, all ins are a staple for the race, not high risk high reward like they should be.



Just because it hasn't been figured out doesn't mean it is unbalanced. Give it some time.



You're sacrificing a lot of economy to get this build that. That means your opponent is going to have sacrifice economy too. To expect to hold this with a standard expand build order isn't the right way to think.

Just because it hasn't been figured out doesn't mean it is unbalanced. Give it some time.You're sacrificing a lot of economy to get this build that. That means your opponent is going to have sacrifice economy too. To expect to hold this with a standard expand build order isn't the right way to think.

tar Profile Joined October 2010 Germany 990 Posts #15 So far, I've been opening 2 gate adept into expand in PvT (and even Nexus first into 2 gate adept) and I had quite the success with it. sending them chasing begind shades, just to cancel them the last second...priceless. If they don't wall, they are basically dead no matter what whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu

[PkF] Wire Profile Joined March 2013 France 22019 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 18:15:57 #16 I don't like the state of the adept currently and this thread only reinforces my impression Blizzard is failing to design this unit. I especially dislike how the adept seems to have become the only way to open in PvP and I fail to see which interesting dynamics are created by a shade that can be cancelled.

Magnifico Profile Joined March 2013 1958 Posts #17 I'm playing exclusively with adepts based compositions, just for fun. Its a very high skill ceiling unit, with lots of potential.



The best part is how easy is to kill that annoying reaper xD.

JCoto Profile Joined October 2014 Spain 561 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 18:26:59 #18 I think that design-wise, they are seriously too tanky.



But that happens because in fact the weapon is really innefective, the DPS is low, and the slow rate of fire makes the weapon much inneficient because there are a lot of wasted shots (The unit has no smartfire like marines).



The weapon stats for Adepts (not damage, but weapon's) are obviously outdated. The Adept was balanced around a low-tier splash concept and thus the weapon needed to be inneficient as the splash damage was very destructive, but with the splash damage removed the first thing that should have been tweaked is the weapon values.



My suggestion: retune it in a similar way to marauders, maybe adjust it to a marine-like unit with smartfire, and test it that way.



I think it should be much more like a Marauder or even a Marine in that aspect, and retune mobility/maneuverability (damage point, weapon speed, projectile speed and so) so it becomes much more effective at combat, but easier to counter. That could bring some type of bio/baneling play viability to ZvP.



I think that Blizz will realize some day that in fact small HP/shield buffs and small ajustements to Stalkers and Zealots would make a lot of room to retuning the Adept into a balanced unit, not an obviously buffed unit whose stats are absurd and exploiteable at the cost of being damage-inneficient.











[PkF] Wire Profile Joined March 2013 France 22019 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-14 18:29:59 #19 Watching TT1's stream. PvP games seem to be as interesting as a Ruff game on Catallena. PvP would be so dominated by adepts early game if the adepts stays the way they are the match-up will go back to WoL 4 gates levels of refinement. I agree with the previous post that the adept seems far too tanky for their role.

PowerOfOne Profile Joined February 2013 Peru 78 Posts #20 + Show Spoiler + On May 15 2015 03:24 JCoto wrote:

I think that design-wise, they are seriously too tanky.



But that happens because in fact the weapon is really innefective, the DPS is low, and the slow rate of fire makes the weapon much inneficient because there are a lot of wasted shots (The unit has no smartfire like marines).



The weapon stats for Adepts (not damage, but weapon's) are obviously outdated. The Adept was balanced around a low-tier splash concept and thus the weapon needed to be inneficient as the splash damage was very destructive, but with the splash damage removed the first thing that should have been tweaked is the weapon values.



My suggestion: retune it in a similar way to marauders, maybe adjust it to a marine-like unit with smartfire, and test it that way.



I think it should be much more like a Marauder or even a Marine in that aspect, and retune mobility/maneuverability (damage point, weapon speed, projectile speed and so) so it becomes much more effective at combat, but easier to counter. That could bring some type of bio/baneling play viability to ZvP.



I think that Blizz will realize some day that in fact small HP/shield buffs and small ajustements to Stalkers and Zealots would make a lot of room to retuning the Adept into a balanced unit, not an obviously buffed unit whose stats are absurd and exploiteable at the cost of being damage-inneficient.



Totally agree.

Totally agree.

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