LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: The Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, joined me earlier from Sydney.

Christopher Pyne, welcome to the program.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE, EDUCATION MINISTER: Thank you, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: You told voters one thing during the election campaign regarding your education policy and now you're doing another. Is this going to go down as the moment where the Abbott Government first flagged to the Australian public that it can't be trusted?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, not at all. Because we said before the election that we would fund the Labor model dollar for dollar in the same way as Labor was doing, so whatever their funding envelope was, it would be our funding envelope, and we're keeping that promise.

The second thing we said was that we didn't like the prescriptive nature of the Labor model. We didn't like the command and control features from Canberra, so that we would dismantle those and amend the Australian Education Act and that's exactly what we're doing.

So we promised the same funding envelope, delivered. We promising - we promised that we would get rid of the prescriptive nature of the model; we're delivering. But we're going one better, Leigh. Unlike Short Change Shorten, who took $1.2 billion out of the school funding model, we're putting $230 million back in for WA, Queensland and Northern Territory for one year while I sort out the Shorten shambles that I've been left.

LEIGH SALES: Alright. Let's unpack a little bit this funding envelope that you keep referring to and the money. Before the election the Coalition said that every single school would receive the same funding dollar for dollar over the next four years as what Labor was offering. Is that in fact the case?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, of course, because we said that whatever Labor's funding envelope was, was our funding envelope.

LEIGH SALES: So does that mean - sorry to interrupt, but does that mean an individual school that thinks it has X amount of dollars that it was promised before the election still has that same amount of money?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, obviously for 2014 until I sort out the new model, that pertains precisely because we said we would match Labor dollar for dollar. So whatever ...

LEIGH SALES: But they can't bank on it after 2014?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Whatever the model would have delivered for them in 2014 will be delivered for them, but we're going one better because we're putting $230 million in for Queensland, WA and the Northern Territory, who Short Change Shorten was determined to take that away from them. We're not going to let that happen.

LEIGH SALES: But the last time we met was on this program during the election campaign and you said you would give the same funding over four years because you wanted to give Australian schools certainty.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That'd right.

LEIGH SALES: Why have you ripped that certainty out from under them by now saying it's only for 2014?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, what I'm saying is that we can be absolutely sure that in 2014 every school will get the same money that it would have under the agreement, whether it signed it or not, so that Queensland, WA and Northern Territory will attract $230 million that Labor ripped away from them in the pre-election fiscal outlook. Then ...

LEIGH SALES: But you previously said you'd give them four years of certainty.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But just let me finish, Leigh. Just let me finish. Then beyond that, for the next three years after 2014, we will have the same funding guarantee, the same funding envelope that Labor was promising. No-one suggested that should be changed, but I have to come up with a model, and I outlined the principles for that today, that is fair, that is equitable between students and that is national, because Bill Shorten has left us with a model that is not national by any means. Every single state and territory has a different application of that and in NSW it's led to 200 schools being worse off, because, at the end of the day, Leigh, the Federal Minister for Education doesn't apply the model in the states and territories because we don't run the schools, the states and territories do.

LEIGH SALES: So, on this point about it being national, when you meet with the state and territory leaders tomorrow, are you going to insist that the way forward has to be a national agreement?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I'm going to ask them to work together with me, with the Catholic and independent systems to come up with a model that has as its principles that it's national, that it's fair and that it's equitable. And I want to move the debate from funding to teacher quality, a robust curriculum, principal autonomy and parental engagement, because we've spent 44 per cent more on education in the last 10 years and yet our results have gone backwards, so money isn't the answer to every problem in education and parents know that and it's time that we moved beyond funding debates and onto quality debates.

LEIGH SALES: The heart of the Gonski model is that every student in the country receives the same level of base funding so the school can rely on that money to address those points you've talked about there, and then there are additional loadings for disadvantage. So just with those basic points - the base funding and then the loadings - will that form the basis of your model?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: In the non-government system, there is a contribution from the Federal Government, a very small contribution from the state governments and a contribution from parents or grandparents to their children or grandchildren's education.

In the government system, there is a large contribution from the state governments, a smaller one from parents and a smaller one from the Commonwealth.

Within that framework of how schools are funded in Australia, we want to make sure that students are equitably funded between states and territories, between government and non-government, and that's the model that I will deliver in the first half of next year that is national, that is fair and that is equitable and doesn't rip $1.2 billion away from WA, Queensland and the Northern Territory.

Which by the way, Leigh, Chris Bowen has belled the cat on that today. For three days Bill Shorten has been asked to deny that he ripped $1.2 billion away and he wouldn't deny it, but Chris Bowen has come out today and said, "Labor did take $1.2 billion away." He's contradicted his leader. It's the second time he's contradicted Bill Shorten this week. Chris Bowen has admitted that Labor took $1.2 billion out of the school funding model.

LEIGH SALES: Christopher Pyne, thank you very much.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That's a pleasure, Leigh. Thank you.