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The anxious only child of a drunk/rager mom and a passive dad shares about her family’s combination of material wealth and emotional ignorance/poverty. She talks about her fear of “just being” instead of always “doing”, including triathlons & rock climbing, her ongoing battles with disordered eating -especially binging- , her all-or-nothing thinking and struggles with intimacy while being married and having a family.

Episode notes:



This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy. To learn more (and get your first week free) go to www.betterhelp.com/mental

This episode is sponsored by MadisonReed. For 10% your first hair color kit plus free shipping go to www.Madison-Reed.com and use offer code HAPPY

This episode is sponsored by Movement Watches. Get 15% off today (with free shipping and free returns) by going to www.MVMTWatches.com/mental

This episode is sponsored by ZipRecruiter. To post jobs for free go to www.ZipRecruiter.com/first

Support the podcast by becoming a monthly donor (for as little as $1/month and get rewards from Paul) at Patreon. www.patreon.com/mentalpod

For info on Paul's upcoming live podcast shows in the Bay Area Feb 22 & Feb 23 go to www.eastbayexpress.com/mental

Episode Transcript:



Transcription services donated by Accurate Secretarial LLC. You can find them at www.AccurateSecretarial.com.

Welcome to Episode 315 with my guest, Jenny R. Today's episode is sponsored by Madison Reed. Madison Reed offers salon-quality hair-coloring results that you can achieve right from your home. We gave Listener Kat a free kit and she loved it, and it is, in her words, made her now a fan of the podcast and Madison Reed. So, if you're looking for a fresh take on at-home hair color, find your perfect shade at Madison-Reed.com and get 10% off plus free shipping on your first color kit using promo code HAPPY. That's Madison-Reed.com and promo code HAPPY.

I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I am not a therapist. I'm barely a human being. This is not a doctor's office. This is more like a waiting room that does not suck. The Web site for the show is mentalpod.com. Mentalpod is also the Twitter handle you can follow us at.

Hey, people in Oakland, we are coming to do two live shows in the Bay Area on February 22nd and 23rd. So, for more information, and I think that's, those are weekdays, I know. I can't remember if it's Tuesday-Wednesday or Wednesday-Thursday, but February 22 and 23, and for more information go to EastBayExpress.com/mental. I'll put that link on our Web site for this episode.

So, I've been, I told you guys that we have a new sponsor for online therapy, BetterHelp.com, and I have been using one of their therapists for a couple of months now, and really, really like her, and some of the stuff that we have been dealing with lately, I kind of thought that I, I wouldn't say that I was over it, but she's, she's helping me see [chuckles] my thought patterns and how black and white my thinking can be when I project into the future, how like I exaggerate things in my head.

And what I like about her is that she helped me see this but she did it in a really kind of gentle, compassionate way, so that I discovered it myself. She didn't have to tell me because I began to tell her what my fears are about the future. I could hear how ridiculous they were once I had to write them out or, you know, say them out loud. So, it's going well. It's going well.

It's funny, every time I think, eh, I don't need any more therapy, I have a therapy session, I'm like, I need more therapy. But it's going well. So, if you guys are interested in online therapy, check out BetterHelp.com. Complete their questionnaire, get matched with a BetterHelp.com counselor and experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. The Web site for it is BetterHelp.com/mental. And yeah, you can, and you can correspond with your counselor either through messages, through live texting, live text chat, by phone or by video. So, it's a good deal.

Let's read a couple of surveys before we get to the interview with Jenny R. And Jenny's episode was recorded, I want to say two years ago, I think, and I have an update for you at the end of the interview.

This is, these are all Struggle in a Sentence surveys. This was filled out by Who Am I, and they write about their, Who Am I is agender, and they write about their borderline personality disorder. Considering being run over by a bus because I talked to someone and they didn't reply. Oh, my God. Yeah, that, that's up there with the nobody returning your text and you just are wracking your brain, trying to think, what did I do to make them hate me?

Snapshot from their life. When I was younger, I often felt physically empty and like I was floating. I had a habit of piling all my textbooks in my backpack and putting it on my body to ease numbness and anxiety that would go away if I put something heavy on me. I always had to wear my heaviest sweaters and boots because, without them, I felt anxious and like I would float away.

You know what's funny, Jen Kirkman described that in one of the very first fear-offs that we ever did. She talked about her fear of floating away.

This is filled out by No, Bitch, Put on ChapStick, and she writes about her depression. My lips are chapped, I should kill myself. About her anxiety, having to sit on the toilet while taking an online exam because I am literally shitting my pants an hour before meeting with a friend. Thank you for sharing that.

Loser McLoser Face, who I think might be engaged to Boaty McBoatface, a little tip of the hat to our friend in the UK, he writes about his bulimia. There's a button that makes people love me in the back of my throat. Snapshot from his life. I told my dad that I wanted him to say he loved me. He only said, I know. Fuck, that is heartbreaking. And then he writes, this fucker thinks he can Han Solo his way out of being a father.

Kristy deals with depression, anxiety, bulimia, and a snapshot from her life. The first time I attempted suicide I was eight. I took a bunch of Benadryl, ibuprofen and Flintstones vitamins. Yes, a whole bottle of Flintstones. I was eight, so I get a pass on that one. I woke up two days later with the worst hangover. No one had noticed I had been missing. Perhaps that's why I wanted to die in the first place.

Ground Turkey Taco shares a snapshot from his anger issues. And he also has, oh, I thought he had borderline personality. No, he has bipolar. And a snapshot from his life. When in high school, I was on the basketball team. I received a technical foul during a game and my coach told me to cool off in the locker room. I was so angry, I ripped the security steel door off its hinges and shattered the bulletproof glass. My temper is amazing. [Chuckles] Any comments to make the podcast better? I love you, go fuck yourself. I accept both of those. I, you know, kind of like the place that takes Visa and MasterCard. I take I love you and I take go fuck yourself.

Amy On the Wall writes about her trichotillomania. Remember that one sublime hair-pull from when you were a teenager? I need to find a hair that feels like that again. Thank you for that.

And then Barefoot Wonder, this is a snapshot from their life. They deal with anxiety, or she deals with anxiety, depression, borderline personality and some gastrointestinal issues, and she writes, I'm at the breakfast table and it's the morning of my first day at a new job. I never show up to the office and I’m trying to anticipate how my mom will react when she comes home and discovers that all my interviewing and job searching was for nothing.

I keep getting calls from the office and I delete their voicemails without ever listening to them. I delete their e-mails, too. I fantasize about erasing myself just as easily. I worry that my mom will finally throw me out and I'll be forced to live out of my car, since I’m afraid to go to a homeless shelter. The thought is almost appealing. I deserve to suffer for forcing my mom through this illness with me. Maybe I could have spared her and fought my fears and self-doubt, but I didn't.

I worry that my life will just be an endless cycle of this, getting a grandiose plan for how I can fight my fears, then panicking and destroying it all, tumbling farther into a hole of self-hate and hopelessness.

And I just want to give you a hug and, you know, you just heard me talking about me struggling with black-and-white thinking. It sounds like, from all the surveys and people I've talked to that have borderline personality disorder, that is another thing that they struggle with.

So, sending you some love, and I have to read you this, her description of depression. Imagine the most disappointing news you've ever gotten and now imagine you have to hear it every day when you wake up.

[Show intro]

PAUL: I'm here with Jenny R., who is a listener. Jenny R., where to begin? So, the broad strokes, possible borderline personality disorder.

JENNY: Yes.

PAUL: Disordered eating.

JENNY: Yes.

PAUL: Anxiety.

JENNY: Yes.

PAUL: Give me some snapshots of just, what the fuck.

JENNY: Probably the worst snapshot is--

PAUL: And I'm going to have you move in to the mic just a little bit. I'll actually move it towards you.

JENNY: Okay.

PAUL: Yeah.

JENNY: Life is hard. Life is hard for everyone, stressful, too busy, all of that, but my coping mechanism became food. So--

PAUL: The, hold on one second. There we go.

The withholding of food or the binging of food or the purging?

JENNY: First the withholding of food, which I was very successful at for, let's say, two years, until, you know, the hunger, desire, got so, so strong, I just, I completely went the other way, which I think is normal for anorexics a lot, but I--

PAUL: If you're going to give up the control, let's give it up completely, right?

JENNY: Well, there's been studies of people that were prisoners at war. When they came home, stashing food under their bed, not knowing what they were doing because they had been starving and so malnourished that they just completely lost control the other way and had super, you know, strange behaviors, but I wasn't able to catch myself in time.

So, what I started to say was that, you know, people end up just stressed out, to the limit, and I don't know what normal people do, but I ended up just even, you know, when I was married, getting in my car, taking off for hours and just going through, you know, five to seven fast-food places, ordering, I mean, more food than can fit in anyone's stomach, again and again and again and again and again, knowing that other people were coping differently, knowing that other people had different coping mechanisms than I, and I couldn't find them.

And being a mom, being married, having a normal job--

PAUL: Back up, knowing other people had different coping mechanisms and you couldn't find them, you couldn't find the coping mechanisms--

JENNY: The coping mechanisms.

PAUL: Okay.

JENNY: So, even though therapy--

PAUL: I see. Quick question. At what age did the disordered eating start, the withholding of food?

JENNY: Second, the summer after the second year of college--

PAUL: Second grade.

JENNY: No, no, no [chuckles], not second grade. I was good in second grade [chuckles], well, besides the family I was growing up in--

PAUL: You were a wunderkind, you were counting calories before you could count--

[Laughter]

JENNY: Actually, no--

PAUL: --this just looks like a lot of food.

JENNY: No, but thanks for making it funny.

PAUL: Yeah. Second year of college . . .

JENNY: Second year of college. My mom was a model. She was, you know, very, very, very skinny. I had always been very, very skinny, and about the second year of college I sort of became almost normal, but just couldn't handle it, so instant, you know, complete restricting, like I'm just going to eat fruit.

PAUL: When you gained the weight and became not rail thin, in a healthy way, were there any comments, or was it all in your perception of yourself?

JENNY: I got a lot more attention from boys or men or whatever you want to call college males, which you'd think that I would have liked, and as much as I liked it, it made me extremely uncomfortable, but mostly looking in the mirror, it was like a self-identity crisis of some sorts.

And the second that I started restricting food, like minute one, I could feel it take the edge off of anything that was going on with me, any stress, any feeling. And I got so addicted so fast to that feeling, but starving yourself isn't something you can maintain.

And so, bulimia became this like complete, you know, it's like coating all your feelings in like syrup, you know what I mean. It's just like, whatever is going on, stress, negativity, a bad feeling, a fight with your boyfriend, just coating it all in like this syrup, sugar. Just so I think that sort of, when I first maybe had the first thoughts about it, you know, that's like the pre-binge, pre-thinking, but then during it, it's like a biochemical, like, thing happening--

PAUL: A high. Is it a high?

JENNY: It's definitely a high during, and then it's almost like the purging is like a, like the low, like the--

PAUL: After the purge or during the purge?

JENNY: Afterwards. So it's like--

PAUL: I've heard people say they get high immediately after the purge and then it's a crash, or for you is it right after the purge it's immediate crash?

JENNY: Pretty immediate crash, but something you said, so, I did a 12-step program for a long time that just sort of didn't hit it for me, and then, when I ended up going to a different 12-step program, it's like I don't relate with food people, who do this food stuff because of their weight, because it's, it quickly became not about that.

I relate with like heroin addicts, you know, like needle in your vein, put the pause button on all your feelings in life and just escape, you know. And so, it's like it ended up giving me a sense of control over every feeling I ever felt, if that makes sense, and totally avoiding, like what you said.

PAUL: It makes perfect sense, and I'm so glad you said that because I always say to people, it's not about the substance. It's about the feelings that we're running from and the coping mechanisms that we, I mean, one of the reasons why I go to two different 12-step programs is, there's a specificity to each one, but I would feel completely comfortable going to a 12-step program for food because the feelings are still the same--

JENNY: Exactly.

PAUL: --that people are sharing about. They may be saying, you know, I ate a pizza and I feel like a piece of shit or whatever, but I would just say, okay, yeah, last Friday I played video games for 12 hours and, yeah, I'm feeling like a lazy piece of shit.

JENNY: The only thing I find that's different is, in the food program, you can talk about food the rest of your life and never have to talk about your feelings, but when you have to give up your substance to sort of be a full-fledged member, then you're forced to talk about what's going on.

PAUL: Oh. I never thought about that.

JENNY: So, unfortunately, when you deal with food, they say it's like, you know, you take the tiger for a walk three times a day, you know. You have to keep dealing with the food, so it's hard not to focus on the food, when it's not about the food. You know what I mean?

PAUL: That makes perfect sense.

JENNY: It's about what's underneath it and why can't I, as an adult female, you know, cope with all the same stresses that everyone else does, you know? Mostly because I haven't, mostly because I haven't since, you know, I was 19, in college. I chose to bail on feelings and decisions and life and maintain this sort of on-the-edge functional life.

PAUL: What were the feelings when you would, let's say your food was clean. Is that an okay word for it?

JENNY: Yeah, that's, mm-hmm--

PAUL: I've heard people say, my food's been clean, meaning that they're not under-eating or overeating.

JENNY: Right.

PAUL: And something would stress you out and you would think to yourself, I'm going to go to five drive-thrus--

JENNY: Right.

PAUL: --and then purge it all, when that thought would occur to you, what would you think and feel as that thought would hit you as a possibility that, yes, I’m going to do that tonight? Describe in your body and in your mind what you'd experience when that thought pops into your head, let's do this.

JENNY: So, it's kind of like, it's a mental blank spot. It's like it owns me the first second. It, there is no other truth. That is truth. Like, it--

PAUL: Like you know this is going to get me out of this?

JENNY: Even though I thought that last time and then I woke up the next morning and it didn't. It always will convince me. It always will convince me, or I might play tricks like, it'll just be a small thing this time or there's like a way I can skirt like--

PAUL: Do a little controlled--

JENNY: Right. Any version to make it less or to be home faster or, you know, I have a really strong memory of when I was married, I would, I was working from home, and then I would sort of save up errands to do at night, and then I would cook dinner and then I'd be like, oh, I have to like return this thing to Target and I have to go to Pottery Barn, and I would just kind of run around town doing these errands and binging and, you know, purging in gas stations.

And I thought it was about my marriage, and when that marriage ended and I was back on my own and I was still doing the same behavior and I had to stop and say, holy shit, it wasn't about him, not that I'm supposed to be married with him or I'm sad about that in any way, but that was the first time I got it, like it's not even about one specific thing. It's just this behavior that was so easy to pin on, blame on something it's not.

PAUL: Yeah. You can't blame any person, place or thing for your addiction.

JENNY: Right. It's--

PAUL: It may be added to the pile of whatever it is, and we don't know what causes addictions, you know. I personally believe that it's genetic and then a switch kind of gets flipped by environment, just like mental illness.

JENNY: So, my mom was an alcoholic. She got a drunk-driving arrest and then sober when I was in sixth grade. So--

PAUL: Do you remember her being drunk before then, before she got sober--

JENNY: I very much, very much, and when you said the, when the switch is flipped, I, you know, I have no interest in alcohol. I can take a sip and put it down, but I know this is how genetically I was passed the addict gene.

But my mom is a rager. I'm an only child, so what I remember most distinctly is, I loved family dinners together because our family was so busy and we'd all sit at the table together, and the food memory is my mom--

PAUL: Just the three of you?

JENNY: Just the three of us. The food memory is that my mom would eat like a big bowl of lettuce only, and my dad would have, let's say, a steak and baked potato. He was a runner. And then I was sitting in the middle of the table and I just remember, who knows, I probably had some of what my dad was eating and some of what my mom was eating, but I remember like thinking, girls eat this and boys eat this, so why is she feeding me that? Like, I didn't understand.

But she would start drinking with dinner. She only drank at night. She was a pretty controlled alcoholic. But the arguments would start, you know, once two glasses were down her, two glasses of wine, the arguments would start. My dad's very passive. And as soon as the dishes started getting cleaned, I would go to do my homework and it would just get louder and louder and louder and louder, and I'd get more and more and more uncomfortable.

And I would always feel it in my stomach, just extreme fear that they were going to get, you know, divorced, or that she was going to leave, or who was I going to live with.

PAUL: That this misery was going to be shattered.

[Chuckling]

JENNY: Right? The fear is, right?

PAUL: Yeah.

JENNY: Maybe that would have been better. And then, inevitably, she would peel out of the driveway. And then my dad, God bless him, would never, I always wanted him just to come to my room and sort of acknowledge what was going on, hey, are you okay, did you hear that? And it's like as soon as she left, he was sort of embarrassed or I don't know and just, then it was just done. Like, I was going to put myself to bed, like just.

So, I just remember fear, just a lot of anger and fear from the drinking, her anger and then my fear and then her leaving.

PAUL: Have you seen the documentary Running From Crazy by Mariel Hemingway?

JENNY: No, and I should, and I love her--

PAUL: Oh, my God.

JENNY: --and I've met her, so.

PAUL: You will see your story--

JENNY: Okay.

PAUL: --on film. That was exactly what her parents did every night. Her mom didn't drink during the day. Actually both her parents were drinkers. But it would start with drinking the wine while cooking and her mom would be really happy at first, and then she would get belligerent and she and her father would argue, and it was the same, and she had to be in between it. But there's way more to her story than that. There's [chuckles] . . .

JENNY: They have a complicated family [chuckles].

PAUL: That's a, that is an understatement--

JENNY: Yeah.

PAUL: --you know, that is an understatement.

And even if you don't relate to that, anybody listening, go watch that documentary, Running From Crazy. It, oh, my God, I fucking sobbed like a baby when I saw it.

JENNY: I love documentaries, and I need some down time, so time to watch that.

PAUL: E-mail me and I will send you a list of about 60--

JENNY: Okay, okay. Great.

PAUL: --that I've watched that I really enjoy.

So, it just wasn't safe to be a kid. There was like your emotions were just kind of bouncing right back at you, that nobody, it sounds like nobody feeling you.

JENNY: Exactly. And then, at the time she got sober, so she, she had been a flight attendant and then she'd stopped being a flight attendant, and when she got sober she went back to being a flight attendant, so exactly like myself, she doesn't deal with fatigue well.

So, she's sober and now she's flying internationally and she would come home so exhausted that, you know, drinking obviously created an unsafe environment, like you just said, and now she's coming home so tired that that created an unsafe environment. She was like a ticking time bomb of like, she'd walk in the house and either she was going to tell me how much she missed me or she was going to explode because there was like one bowl in the sink, or go to bed for four days, but . . .

PAUL: It didn't help that all she was eating was salad either, you know.

[Chuckling]

JENNY: Exactly, exactly. So yeah, she didn't--

PAUL: And was she getting help for her drinking or was she just white-knuckling it?

JENNY: Nope. She went to a 12-step program and got sober just immediately, but more of a dry drunk.

PAUL: Yeah, that doesn't sound like somebody's doing the self-exploration that good support groups are known for.

JENNY: She did much later but not then--

PAUL: Oh, good. Good.

JENNY: Yeah.

PAUL: And that's why it pisses me off when people say, oh, you know, that support group doesn't work, you know, this person I know went to it. Yeah, but that's like saying, you know, that person I know had a job at that restaurant and they got fired from it or whatever, it's like, well, what's their part? Did they give it their best shot? Did they, anyway, go ahead.

JENNY: So, the other sort of distinct thing was, you know, throughout either drinking or later being sober, I hesitate to say verbal abuse because, if she were to hear this, I'd feel bad about that, because we remember it so differently, but--

PAUL: It felt like verbal abuse to you.

JENNY: It felt like verbal abuse, just lots of, you know, lots of weird public humiliation. Like she'd get so upset with me, like, she took me shopping with her on her shopping trips a lot. I was more of a tomboy. She was a model before and during being a flight attendant. And she just lots of, she'd get upset and scream at me.

I remember a specific time on Rodeo Boulevard in Beverly Hills just, or Rodeo Drive, screaming at the top of her lungs that she wished I was never born or she hated me, just stuff a kid should never hear, and I don't even remember even really believing it, other than I was so, so embarrassed and definitely no, you know, no other abuse of any kind.

PAUL: If you're going to yell that at your kid, that's the best place to do it, though, because it just blends in.

JENNY: Hey, that's good, you know. I grew up very far away from there, in the country, where it would have really stuck out, so maybe it was safer that she did it there.

[Chuckling]

PAUL: Was your family wealthy?

JENNY: My family was wealthy. And that's definitely part of my sort of adult story, is that they never said no to me, and--

PAUL: Because that's how they loved you, right?

JENNY: Oh, that's definitely how they loved me, and it was, you know, transitioning to, you know, having an eating disorder definitely makes you immature emotionally if you lean on that. You don't, you know, I didn't learn to cope with feelings or, you know, to really grow up because I was leaning on that all through college, you know, being 95 pounds my sophomore and junior year of college, I missed out on a lot anyways.

And then, you know, transitioning to real life, where I had to go out and get a job, and I remember I graduated and I had a degree, I mean an interview at a big agency in L.A. and they said, it's going to be $400 a week before taxes, and I was like, are you kidding? Who would take that job? Bye.

And that was, you know, that was the only job offer I got, and I was like, screw this, like, I’m going back to school. Hey, Dad, will you pay for me, you know, to go back to school, and my rent and, you know, some allowance? Sure, okay. So, then I did that for another three years. And--

PAUL: What'd you study?

JENNY: Acupuncture.

PAUL: And is that what you do now?

JENNY: No. I quit. I quit because I didn't really want to be in school. I just wanted a, you know, sort of safety plan, so.

PAUL: You just wanted to not be in the real world.

JENNY: I just did not want to be in the real world. The real world was way too hard, and I wasn't willing to kind of struggle until, I wasn't even able to buy the kind of clothes that they bought me or, you know, live anywhere near the same lifestyle because there was just this like instant sort of cut-off.

So, I ended up dropping out of school, starting a business, and getting married all at the same time. So, I literally went from, you know, their help to the husband's help--

PAUL: Like no responsibility--

JENNY: Right? No growing up, just leaning constantly.

PAUL: Why didn't you pump out a couple of kids while you were at it?

JENNY: I pumped out one kid.

PAUL: Did you?

JENNY: Yeah, I did. I pumped out one kid. We had a long engagement, I got pregnant and then I married him--

PAUL: How far out did you pump him out?

[Chuckling]

PAUL: Did he come out in an arc? You know you're, you know that you've been Kegeling when you can get the kid to shoot out in an arc.

JENNY: It was actually a C-section, so there was no shooting involved [chuckles].

PAUL: Did he come out with a top hat on, take a little bow?

JENNY: No.

[Chuckling]

JENNY: And as much as I was still doing the behavior, my consciousness was changing, and there's a story that ties in, but like being in program and having those people understand you in this different way, where they don't, they understand and they have complete empathy and compassion because they've done it, too, and they get it, too. He was such a normie that it was hard to even put words to what I needed.

You know, the story I was going to say is that, even having him kind of, what's the word, have admiration for my work that, you know, I ended up doing, the first time that that--

PAUL: Your personal work, meaning the--

JENNY: No, sorry, my career work--

PAUL: Oh, career work, okay.

JENNY: My photography, having outside people comment on my work, you know, with words of admiration and wow, and then realizing that like he was never looking at my work. That was the first time that I understood kind of that, what do you need in a relationship, what fills you, what makes you feel loved.

PAUL: What attracted him to you?

JENNY: Oh, that was ages ago. I was young and he was cute and it was just--

PAUL: It was a physical thing.

JENNY: It was a completely physical thing that wore off before we got married, but then I got pregnant. But that was such a wonderful experience to kind of feel that and to be able to, I mean, I'm so grateful to be divorced because you can choose so much more consciously the second time.

PAUL: How awesome would that have been for you guys to have put that in your wedding invitation?

JENNY: Oh, no [chuckles].

PAUL: We were physically attracted at first but now I’m pregnant, save July 27th.

[Chuckling]

JENNY: This is only infatuation, but I have to marry him or I'm screwed.

[Chuckling]

JENNY: Right? Yeah, that was, it was very interesting going out and dating after that because I was so wary of the infatuation that wears off, and I was so curious to see what it would feel like when, I knew that at some point infatuation would wear off and there'd be something underneath it and I--

PAUL: The real them?

JENNY: Right? And I was kind of waiting for that, and, but I ended up finding that, and it was just, it's such a different experience when you've been married before. It's almost scary that my significant other hasn't been married because I'm like, you know, well, I guess I can't, you know, be 100% how he feels versus how I feel, but it's really just cool to feel this really solid, stable, forever thing under the infatuation, and, you know, it's not as crazy as infatuation, thank God, but I would run from that infatuation feeling. You know, I did. I wanted the second time to be a really practical, like I love you for these 10 reasons, you feed me for the, in these 10 ways, really practical.

PAUL: So, give me the things that were important to you in a mate before you started going to support groups and the things that are important to you in a mate now, with the most important ones towards the top.

JENNY: Well, it sounds funny, but nobody ever told me what, you know, was important, so it just was hormones, infatuation, hormones, just I'm attracted to you and you don't drive me crazy and I kind of feel like hanging out with you, so let's date for two years. That was all that went through my head.

And then, after that, it was definitely--

PAUL: Would there have been any red flags that would make you run away from anybody, or would they have to be a fucking psycho for you to go, oh, this clearly isn't going to work?

JENNY: No, sure. I mean, of course they had to be nice and smart and sort of, you know--

PAUL: [Chuckles] I like that--

JENNY: --someone I vibed with, but it really was based on like infatuation. Like, recovery really, number one, taught me to listen to my needs, to even know I had needs, and to be comfortable having needs. I, baseline, don't want to have needs at all, from anyone or anything.

And so, as soon as I started evaluating, you know, those needs, I realized that kind of shared activities is really important to me. I'm super active and finding someone that did some or one of those sports with me.

PAUL: What are your sports?

JENNY: Triathlons, so swimming, biking, running, and then rock climbing. That's sort of that, I think admiration is a fair word, but that this other person appreciates my, you know, what I'm doing, whether it's my art or, you know, doesn't think that my work is stupid or that what I have to say isn't valuable. Stability is really important to me.

So, I stress out super bad, so like when the shit hits the fan, I want to know that I can freak out and the other person is going to hold my hand and going to be like, babe, it's okay.

PAUL: How do you freak out?

JENNY: I just, you know, when I get overwhelmed, I just, I feel like I can't handle like anything at all and just like, I’m not going to make it to tomorrow, not knowing how I’m going to handle it at all.

PAUL: Do you at least wait until your hair is in curlers so it's more stereotypical?

JENNY: Yeah [chuckles], actually, yeah.

PAUL: Okay [chuckles]. Was that you just yes-and'ing, or is that the truth?

JENNY: I don't put my hair in curlers so I had to make up an answer.

PAUL: All right, thank you. Do people still put their hair in curlers?

JENNY: So, there's something you can do where you roll your hair up in a sock [chuckles] and you leave it all night and it's kind of like curlers, which I don't do either, but I think people use flatirons to curl their hair. I think that's a, there's an Asian girl on YouTube who teaches you like everything you want to do with your hair, I've seen her before, because I don't do much with my hair [chuckles].

PAUL: Mm-hmm. And if you want your hair [chuckles], if you want your hair super flat, do you roll it up in a sock that's been jizzed in, so that it's--

JENNY: Oh, gross--

[Laughter]

JENNY: My hair is flat naturally, so, I don't know. I haven't tried that.

PAUL: How uncomfortable am I making you right now?

JENNY: You're not, you're not. It's really hot in here by itself--

[Chuckling]

PAUL: It is. The place where we record is, it's a law office building, and I got so tired of the noise across the hall, taping during the day, that I now tape on off hours, and I guess I’m finding out that they don't run the air conditioning at night and on the weekends here.

One quick question--

JENNY: Okay.

PAUL: --just because I love rock climbing.

JENNY: Okay.

PAUL: What, have you climbed a 5.10 or a 5.10a?

JENNY: I can do 12, Paul.

PAUL: Five-twelve?

JENNY: I can do 12.

PAUL: Are you shitting me?

JENNY: Five-ten is not that hard. A 5.10 is not that hard.

PAUL: No?

JENNY: No. If you started going to the gym in a--

PAUL: Maybe I was thinking a 5.11.

JENNY: --in a few months you could do a 5.10.

PAUL: Oh, you know what? I think I did do a 5.10. I was thinking 5.11--

JENNY: Okay, good.

PAUL: But 5.12, 5.12a, b?

JENNY: I think a b is the hardest thing I've done.

PAUL: That's serious. You're a serious rock climber.

JENNY: I'm serious. I like it a lot. You know, on a really non-joking level, I taught yoga for a lot of years because I was, you know, still, you know, that was part of my recovery, getting in my body, getting quiet, you know, meditation, all of that, but after you do yoga for enough years you can totally obsess and freak out and think about non-related things while you're in a handstand.

So, I quit yoga and started rock climbing to find a new thing to shut my brain off, and you throw in that you might fall and die and your brain kind of shuts off, and I just look at the next hold and how I’m going to get there, so.

PAUL: The focus is unbelievable. Some of the deepest peace and focus I've ever felt was, I learned glacier climbing in the Pacific Northwest, and the, one of the parts of the glacier course was you had to learn how to, first of all, self-arrest, which means when you're, as you know--

JENNY: Ice axe.

PAUL: What's that?

JENNY: Ice axe.

PAUL: Ice axe, yes, you jam your ice axe into the ground. And then the other thing you had to learn how to do was how to pull, when you're roped together with a friend and one of you falls into a crevasse, you can't just with your pure strength pull that person up from that thing.

What you have to do is you have to put your ice axe in and then you have to set up a system of like pulleys and winches to get this person up. And so when you learn how to do this, what you do is you and the other person are roped in together at the waist. One person who's going to stay up on the ground turns their back to the crevasse and the other person jumps into the crevasse and pulls the other person off their feet and they have to dig their axe in and then set up the system of pulleys to winch the other person up out of the crevasse.

I was the first person in the group that had to trust that this was going to work--

JENNY: Oh, wow.

PAUL: --and just jump into this 200-foot crevasse. Now, there were guides there that obviously had set up a safety system, so I was pretty sure I wasn't, they weren't going to let me fall to my death, but you don't know that when you're standing on the edge of this gaping thing.

And I jumped over it and, sure enough, they, you know, this guy stopped me from falling all the way to the bottom, and I was just in this beautiful crevasse where it was like blue. All the ice was blue, and I tell you, I didn't worry about anything that happened in my life. I wasn't tripping out about the future. And it was just the most peaceful, why is it that when we, I suppose because we have to focus to minimize the risk of being hurt, that it forces us to be present. Is that a fair assessment?

JENNY: Yeah, that makes sense, or, you know, it's like when you're going up and the next hold is what's going to keep you from falling. It's like every cell in your being doesn't want to fall, so you're just focusing on, you know, mentally and physically what I have to do to get to that next hold. I hate falling. It's sort of a different experience if you're in, you're overwhelmed by natural beauty, I think like you were describing.

PAUL: Give me an example of where you're going for a hold that you've failed before, you know, something that's probably past vertical and your arms are starting to burn, what is going through your head and your body as you're trying to climb this route that you've never been able to tackle before or you're not sure you're going to be able to do it, even technical stuff that you're thinking to yourself, share some of that with us.

JENNY: I think that not much goes through my head at that point. It's such a time game. I mean, you can't hang on and think about it, so I usually just go for it, and then I'd say 50% of the time I surprise myself, and even though I was completely taxed, I make it, and 50% of the time I was completely taxed and I, you know, can't grip it. You just, your forearms are burnt and you just literally can't grip anymore.

But it's interesting how I always say like--

PAUL: So, it's instinctual more than intellectual for you--

JENNY: I think so.

PAUL: --in cracking a route. They call them, for our listeners, they call them problems, which I think is such an accurate thing because a route could be completely inaccessible. You could be stymied by it, and then you suddenly realize, oh, if I put my left foot on this one--

JENNY: Right.

PAUL: --instead of my right foot, then that opens up this one over here, which opens up that one over there, which makes this other one reachable, where in the past, and it's kind of physical chess in--

JENNY: That's a good way to put it.

PAUL: --in some way.

JENNY: I watch people do it, you know, stand on the ground and look at the problem and kind of move their hands like they're going to see it. I can't do that. I just have to start it and I figure it out as I go up, but I think I'd be a much better climber if I could plan and see it. I just, I can't see it until I’m on top of it, so I have to make quick decisions.

But I, you know, if I have a really stressful day, if I go for a long run or something, that kind of like, I can think about work the whole time but it, you know, the endorphins kind of like, kind of melt over work--

PAUL: Take the edge off--

JENNY: --versus climbing is different because it's just, it's a break from real life in a very similar way, actually, that like binging would be. It just, pause button, cell phone is over there, just go.

PAUL: Yeah. It's, that's interesting that there is a difference between stuff that distracts us and stuff that consumes us.

JENNY: Right.

PAUL: And I'd never realized the difference between that, that I've always been drawn to the things that consume me, but the more I recover, the more I try to be aware that that's not necessarily a good answer. It can feel like a break, but in some ways it's running.

What's the difference for you between--

JENNY: That's interesting.

PAUL: --between a break and running?

JENNY: Well, I was just, so my son is gone for two weeks.

PAUL: And how old is he?

JENNY: He's 11, and he went with his dad to visit his other side's grandparents, and it's funny how my first instinct is to like do more ocean swimming, go climbing more, like fill in all this time with like fun and activity and, you know, consuming activities. And, you know, he's been gone a few days and I have, you know, I was coming here tonight and then Wednesday I have this activity thing going on, and so I never climb on Tuesday nights and I was going to climb on Tuesday night, and I was driving here going, no, you're not allowed to climb on Tuesday night. You need to be at home with the cat, like chilling.

So, I think I still, that's still kind of murky water for me, and--

PAUL: To just be, to be okay to just be--

JENNY: It's really hard to just be. And I remember early on dating people and I went on a few dates with a man who broke up with me by saying, or didn't break up with me, but he said he didn't want to go out again, he said, you are a doer. You're way too much of a doer. I need a be'er, and I suggest you learn to meditate and become a be'er. I was like, oh, shit.

PAUL: Did that hurt?

JENNY: It did hurt [chuckles].

PAUL: Did you say anything to him?

JENNY: No, no, no. I mean, I knew it was the reality and that we'd only gone on three dates, but that man had me pegged. And so, more what I do is just know I don't need to do this activity any more than two days a week, and I do need to rest more and just set boundaries with myself because I'm not, I'm so aware in so many ways, but when it comes to things like rest and relaxing, it doesn't feel good until I completely burn out.

PAUL: You know, as you're sharing that, I'm thinking, why is stillness so scary for some of us? And I was just flashing back to that, you know, that image of you as that kid in that tense silence in your house, and it's like, of course stillness was scary, you know, that silence was awful.

JENNY: This is going to make me sound really crazy, not that, you know, it's been mild so far, but I remember, I don't know how old I was--

PAUL: And by silence I meant the issue not being discussed. Obviously your parents were arguing, but your dad not coming in and saying, hey, what you heard was, you know, probably kind of scary.

JENNY: That reminds me of a whole different story, but I just remember, what I first thought you meant was actual stillness, and those times when they would fight and then it would get quiet and no one would come to my room, I remember distinctly one really fucked-up coping mechanism I had was to sit on the floor on my knees and just like bash my forehead into the ground until like my head was numb, which, but, you know, a really immature way to, you know, numb out feelings, I literally did not know what else to do.

And it's just, it's really interesting to me that other kids go through horrible stuff and they, I just, someone told me once like I missed the handbook to life, someone in program, like some of us just missed the handbook to life and we need to like buy this like book for $15 or whatever and like re-learn how to fucking live, you know, but my solution to my parents fighting and being scared was to smash my head in the floor.

Or even earlier than that, my mom has told me when I was like really little, two or three, and I didn't want to go the same direction that they were going like walking down the beach, I just had the ability to fall over straight backward like a board and just like, just to get attention and make them do what I wanted [chuckles]. Like, I mean, that was like way before they fucked me up, so I don't know.

But stillness is very hard for me even to this day, like very hard.

PAUL: Why do you think it is? Is it because we're waiting for the other shoe to drop?

JENNY: I think it's--

PAUL: We feel like the world's passing us by?

JENNY: I've had both experiences. I think when I was single and there'd be like a weekend with not much going on, I would feel like the world was passing me by and like why was everyone else doing, I had this idea everyone else was doing something but me, but I think my problem with stillness is like a relationship-with-myself issue.

And I'm very blessed to have my best friend on this planet be like an official normie and I've learned so much through her--

PAUL: Meaning your partner?

JENNY: No, no. My best friend [chuckles].

PAUL: Oh, okay.

JENNY: Yeah. No, my partner is very much as fucked up as I am [chuckles].

PAUL: Yeah?

JENNY: He'll be the next one on your show.

PAUL: Is he in any kind of support group stuff?

JENNY: No, but I push pretty hard [chuckles].

PAUL: Yeah.

JENNY: Therapy, therapy, books, things like that, but pretty resistant to, you know, something works for everyone. He's tried it, not for him.

But my best friend, she's just a normie, and it's just interesting to me to watch like, we have kind of parallel lives and she's had some really difficult stuff happen to her at the same time I have, and like the way she copes, like we both are deeply, deeply uncomfortable, and she just like sits in it.

And that allows her to like to learn something and to grow. And, you know, anything you read, like, you know, Buddhism 101, like, you know, feel it, let it pass, move on, like I can't seem to be able to do that [chuckles]--

PAUL: It's so scary, when the feelings are intense, it's so scary to not reach for the iPad or a book or turn on the TV and just--

JENNY: Any of that would be even better than the harsher stuff, you know, just, you know, work, exercise, you know, any of that. I read a--

PAUL: Especially when some of that stuff has been praised by our culture, and is, in reality, a good thing in moderation.

JENNY: Right. There is a world-champion female triathlete who wrote a book. She was a, you know, serious bulimic and she, triathlons kind of replaced that for her, and she said, I'm going to have an addiction and this is a healthier one, and I feel the same way about exercise.

You know, I don't, an addiction to me is something that's dysfunctional and like interrupts your life and exercise is not that to me, but in a way, sometimes I feel that like triathlon is an excuse to spend a lot of time doing something compulsive and end up super in shape and it takes a lot of time. But I will say, for someone not being very athletic growing up, it is a huge source of self-esteem and goal-setting and good time by myself, and it has a lot of really, really good things.

PAUL: I can't even imagine what doing a triathlon is like. You know, on the odd day that I run four miles, I think, how the fuck does somebody make it five miles, let alone 26, let alone swimming and biking after that. I know you work up to it, but how the fuck do you even work up to it? It's--

JENNY: Well, I think that's a really amazing thing, or probably the thing I like most about it, is it seems so impossible and then you do this training, and the training is the hard part because by race day, like the race isn't that big a deal.

PAUL: But how do you get up when you know you've got to run 12 miles that day? I mean, I just, I suppose your energy is different than somebody who asks you how the fuck do you wake up and run 12 miles that day.

JENNY: I think that triathletes are all crazy, type-A personalities, is what I think.

PAUL: Who have to be moving to feel okay--

JENNY: Yeah, I think that's the main thing--

PAUL: So, in many ways, that's your way of relaxing.

JENNY: I think my best ability to relax is after a really hard workout. I mean, it sounds sad, but I feel like I deserve it, and then it feels really good and it's so nice to like want time in my own house.

PAUL: I actually, I had that last night. I played hockey and the guy that runs the rink let us play extra long, so it was almost two hours long, and there was only one sub on each team. And I was so tired at the end that my legs were starting to collapse, and when I came home, I had a big, strong cup of tea and I felt so relaxed but energized and focused at the same time, but I had that feeling which is so rare, where I just felt relaxed and energized and happy all at the same time. How often do you feel that?

JENNY: Yeah, not that often. I would say, I don't know. I guess triathlon does give that to me. So, I'd say on the weekends I generally feel that. My weekdays are just like crazy-train busy. And I work--

PAUL: Train as in training or crazy train like Ozzy Osbourne Crazy Train?

JENNY: [Chuckles] Ozzy Osbourne.

PAUL: Okay.

JENNY: So, I am a staff photographer at a company. I have my own photography business. I'm constantly training. I'm getting married. I have an 11-year-old. It's a lot. So, on the weekends, I'd say on the weekends, on Saturdays, or on Sundays even when I have, I don't have my son on Saturdays but I do on Sundays, after a long workout when I'm just, I've just, I'm getting better at planning like my day up until 11:00, that's enough. I’m not doing anything the rest of the day. And it's, then I feel that way. It's really nice to feel that.

PAUL: How often do you feel a sense of peace, even while there's turmoil? Do you experience peace in the middle of a crisis or is that something that's really difficult for you, to be comfortable with unresolved problems?

JENNY: I think I do okay being comfortable with unresolved problems and feeling peace. I think that I feel it less than the average person. I think a worse problem is sort of comfort in my own skin, if that makes sense.

PAUL: Before you started getting help, on a scale from zero to 100, what would your anxiety and fear, etc., 100 being the worst, what would it have been at?

JENNY: Ninety, really high.

PAUL: And on an average day now, what would you say?

JENNY: Thirty to 40. I have no idea what normal is, but, you know, I was just telling someone this on the way here. I think the thing that someone told me, and it was in program, that was the most helpful in coping with life the way my brain addresses life on a day-to-day basis, was every time I freak out about something, ask, does that thing have today's date on it? Like, do I really have to worry about this problem that I'm, I've just spent two hours obsessing about this problem and it's not in my face today, and it may never surface, you know, never become a reality.

PAUL: And then you're letting it shit over the other things that could be positive in the day today, too.

JENNY: Exactly. The opposite of the power of now [chuckles].

PAUL: Yeah. That's a great book, The Power of Now, and an even better one, I think, is A New Earth. I think that's just a profound, profound life-changing book. Yeah, the thing I say to myself a lot of times is, will this matter in five years? And almost always the answer is no. Try to think of something five years ago that was super important that fucked you up today. Can you think of anything five years ago?

JENNY: No. But you can think of all those little like, some little car accident or having your phone stolen or something that would have caused like hours and hours of stress and turmoil that you don't know.

PAUL: I think we have this like crazy fear that we have our lottery ticket out there somewhere and our car breaking down or losing our phone or not replying to a text in time or, you know, not getting the right job means that that lottery ticket that's meant to be for us is getting torn up, you know what I mean.

JENNY: That's interesting.

PAUL: At least for me, there's this feeling sometimes that when somebody calls me or texts me or I get an e-mail, this is going to be the one that breaks it wide open, you know, this is the one that, you know, the podcast is going to double in listenership or, you know, whatever endeavor I was in, if I was acting, this is going to be an audition for a movie I'm going to get that's going to put me on the map, and it never was.

It was always just some part of life, but that, I think life gets more doable if we can stop trying to swing for homeruns, thinking that that's safety, is hitting a homerun, because most of life is just bunting and getting beaned in the head.

JENNY: True. I remember, you know, I thought, somewhere in this, you know, period of time between being divorced and being almost remarried, I remember thinking, you know, life was a struggle. Life was like hard. Like I thought, you know, I don't want this anymore, I can do life by myself. Like, way harder transition than I ever in a million years expected, way harder time in there, but I was sure that if I could just meet someone, get married, buy a new house, like it would all be okay. That's all I needed, was these like outside sources.

Like, guess what? Still the same person, still the same shit. Have the house, going to be married in two weekends, and it doesn't fix shit.

PAUL: It just changes the problem.

JENNY: It just changes the problems [chuckles], you know what I mean.

PAUL: Until you decide you're okay exactly as you are, you have enough, you do enough and you are enough, and truly believe that, which is not easy. It's why we go to support groups three times a week and go to therapy and talk to people and try to be of service and all that other stuff and pray and meditate and exercise and eat right--

JENNY: Yep.

PAUL: --we do get those glimpses, though, where we are okay just sitting having a coffee with a friend or, it is, are you finding that the older you get, or I should say the longer you're in recovery, the less it takes to bring you peace?

JENNY: Well, it's very random, like you just said. It's like these weird moments where like I could be having coffee with a friend, it's just like, everything is okay. Or my boyfriend will say, how was your day today, and I might say, it was just one of those days where like just nothing stressed me out and it was all okay. There's certain, swimming in the ocean always brings me that peace, because you just feel like this little tiny little like dot on the surface, and if a shark wanted to eat you, you'd be gone, that always brings me peace.

And this is going to sound very kind of granola and silly, but very, very early, one of my first things I did in recovery, because I'm an extremist and very black and white, I heard that there was a Zen center, I got into Buddhism. I heard there was a Zen center on the top of Mount Baldy and you could go there for seven days and do what's called a sesshin, which is like a, you know, Zen retreat of sorts.

So, I drove up there at like 20 or something. Everyone was there from like different countries for an entire session, like a season or something. And I came for seven days and they taught me all these formal bows and gave me all these robes and we ate three times a day and it was very regimented. You didn't talk. Just like a 103-year-old Japanese man who gave you a koan every day, like--

PAUL: Give you a what?

JENNY: A koan, one of those--

PAUL: What's that?

JENNY: --those riddles, like a Japanese riddle, like, what is the sound of silence? And I don't really know what I was doing there other than I was the most uncomfortable I've ever been in my whole life and I couldn't get out of it. And every night I went to bed and I said, you can wake up in the morning and leave, but you have to sleep here. You'll make a decision in the morning.

And I didn't really equate that with that one-day-at-the-time thing, but I really wanted to see what would happen if I stayed. And somewhere in there, I experienced this peace like I've never experienced before or since, sadly, and--

PAUL: You were 20 at the time.

JENNY: Twenty. And you don't talk. You literally, I didn't explain it well, but besides three meals, you meditate. I think they wake you up at 4:00 in the morning or 4:20.

PAUL: Get high.

JENNY: [Chuckles] Right, right, right. I didn't follow for a second--

PAUL: And then he hits you with the riddle, which is terrible timing.

JENNY: No, but if you slump during meditation, they hit you with a stick to wake you up. But you meditate and then you visit the, I can't remember what he's called, the roshi, to get your koan, but you meditate all day, literally waking up at 4:00 and going to bed at 10:00 at night. So, you're exhausted. You eat very little food. You're sort of sleep deprived. So maybe it's not real, but I experienced the deepest peace I've ever felt in my life.

PAUL: Can you describe the peace? Or does it go beyond words [in scary voice]?

JENNY: It was like what you said. It was just kind of this really deep sense of everything is okay, I’m okay. And I remember thinking, I've got the secret to life, I'm okay now.

And I drove down, oh, and, I mean, we ate like beans and stewed vegetables, and I drove down that mountain, and, first, I wanted to go to Whole Foods and get like a turkey and goat cheese sandwich, and then my brain just filled with garbage and then I was just like, that fast, just back into like obsessive, crazy, scatter-brained, totally lost it.

And I remember much later talking to a sponsor about that, and your peace has to be sort of real life. Unless I want to be a Buddhist nun, I learned something up there and maybe that's just that, if I’m able to balance my life correctly, I can feel that again in real life.

PAUL: Yeah.

JENNY: But I have, that's the distinct memory of the deepest peace I've ever felt.

PAUL: Any snapshots from your life before we, or any big pieces that we're missing before we do some fears and loves?

JENNY: If there's any specific kind of chunks that you can think to ask, but I think that's sort of the broad, I think we--

PAUL: Okay.

JENNY: Yeah, we're good.

PAUL: Hit me with some fears. I'll try to think of some, too.

JENNY: Okay. This was a cool exercise, by the way. I love like exercises. Maybe you could write a workbook--

PAUL: I know I wanted to ask you--

JENNY: Oh, okay.

PAUL: Was there an answer to these riddles? Were you supposed to come up with an answer, or was it just something for you to think about while you meditated?

JENNY: All of that. I think you are supposed to come up with an answer, but I just felt, I mean, achievement junkie one on one here wanted an A-plus and a gold star and I didn't even know what it meant, and then I had to sit with him like 10 minutes for the next seven days and have him like kind of mumble in Japanese. It just, it was very frustrating [chuckles]. I did not get an A or a gold star. No idea what mine was either.

[Chuckling]

JENNY: So, let's see. I'm reading this list quickly. Oh, this is a, which one am I going to pick? This one's a core one, that I don't have long-term relationship capacity and that my partner will just get sick of my shit. That's something you talked about, but--

PAUL: Mm-hmm.

JENNY: --you know, that I can't work on my shit fast enough for my partner not to bail, which is interesting, actually, because the first partner certainly didn't bail because of that.

And the next one is just that I'll never be able to really tolerate life. That's kind of those two. I just, I want to be able to just kind of ride with life and have it get a little easier.

PAUL: That you'll always be fighting it, feeling like you're losing.

JENNY: Yes.

PAUL: One of my core fears is that my life will be forgettable, and I will only realize it like a week before I die, like, oh, I should have done that. That's where I could have really, you know, that's what I was really supposed to do, but I was too lazy or dumb to see that I missed an opportunity.

JENNY: I have that one. I would, that's a really good one, just that like my life's work is not--

PAUL: It's just, meh--

JENNY: Satisfying--

PAUL: --my whole life is just a meh.

JENNY: Yeah, that's a scary one.

PAUL: Yeah.

JENNY: But yours isn't. Let's just put that out there. I'm sure a million people, I mean, you're helping so many people day by day.

PAUL: Well, I appreciate that, but, you know, that fear was tattooed in me as a child and, as you know, you can do all the things you want, but achieving things isn't going to erase that.

JENNY: That's true.

PAUL: It's sometimes just crying on the floor, having snot come out of your nose and calling a friend and laughing about it. That seems to be the moments that make me feel like maybe that's not true, that I do matter and my life isn't forgettable. But I do get a great, to touch on what you said, I do get a great sense of peace and purpose from doing the podcast, but it's a battle. It's a battle.

JENNY: Thank you for sharing that, just so I feel really scared about that one.

PAUL: You having that--

JENNY: That fear, yeah, I didn't write that one down [chuckles].

PAUL: Yeah [chuckles].

JENNY: Working on that one.

PAUL: Give me another one.

JENNY: Okay. I have a deep fear of not being able to really make it on my own, because it, you know, sort of is happening again, that here I am, getting married again without, you know, I'm very happy to be getting married, but it, you know, would have been interesting to see if I could have really made it on my own.

PAUL: What's the longest you've ever gone without being in a relationship?

JENNY: A year or so. I mean, that's not like a--

PAUL: Did you have your child then with you?

JENNY: When I--

PAUL: When you had that year without being in a relationship?

JENNY: Yeah. And I’m talking like adult life, like not, I mean, early on like, I'm certainly not a relationship junkie. I'm more of, break up with someone and say I'm going to be alone forever and take like a long break, like, kind of person, but there is a strong sort of, I'm fiercely independent when it comes to my time and what I choose to do and, leave me alone, but when it comes to like, I think a lot of kids that grow up spoiled and with money end up just really financially like dependent, because they don't want to have to struggle.

You know, I didn't want to be a starving artist or any, you know, anything like that. I want to be like comfortable. And we certainly don't have a ton of money or anything, but really being able to just stand on my own two feet, not need anyone, buy a house by myself, like, I have not done the work to erase that fear.

PAUL: I see. I'm afraid that I'm never going to [chuckles], I'm never going to be a vegetarian or a vegan, and when I die, I will pay, I will pay in some afterlife for being a meat-eater. I will either be faced with, I don't know, it's just kind of an amorphous just I'll be in meat-eater hell where we get payback for enslaving the animal population.

JENNY: Have you watched Forks Over Knives?

PAUL: I can't bring myself to watch that.

JENNY: It's a pretty good one. It made me want to be vegan. I'm not, but it made me want to [chuckles].

PAUL: But you're not, yeah. The end of, was it Fast Food Nation? No, what was the one where they show the cattle being slaughtered at the end?

JENNY: Food, Inc.?

PAUL: Food, Inc., that was, I just got down on the ground and I just cried and I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I’m so sorry, and then the next day I had a pastrami sandwich, probably. Yeah. That's a fear of mine, that's a fear of mine.

JENNY: I feel like I didn't go deep enough with the ones that I wrote down. Well, I'll--

PAUL: I think they were pretty deep.

JENNY: I do, I lose sleep over, this is a real fear, I lose sleep over losing my clients' files, like when I shoot a job, that I live in panic of like a hard drive being destroyed or, I mean, that is a like legit sense of anxiety.

But the one you started off with, which is one I didn't write down, is, you know, that makes me really sad about my eating disorder, that I think I've really lost so much time and, because of sort of my dependency issues and just what I talked about with just going immediately back to grad school so that my dad would pay for it, I do feel like I really, I have not found my, kind of my life's work, and that, I don't know if it's a fear of, you know, I don't need to, I'm not someone who needs acclaim or needs to be important per se, but just that I have this like kind of hole inside of me of this there's something I haven't--

PAUL: A professional hole inside of you.

JENNY: Not even professional. More of a service hole, that there was something I was supposed to give and haven't yet.

PAUL: You know, my feeling is, if you're aware of that, you'll find it, because you're seeking. And as you know from being in a support group, seeking is the most important thing. Just by the act of seeking we often are met halfway by that whatever force in the universe that is good for us.

JENNY: Right. I think about half of the work I do, like the work, the photography work that I sort of least enjoy [chuckles], you know, people do, I do get, you know, these e-mails and notes and cards and, you know, how much people appreciated it and how much--

PAUL: What kind of photography is it?

JENNY: I really do everything, but when I do like families and things, you know, these people really just, you captured my kids so amazingly and this is like, you know, you stopped time on our family, and people really appreciate it. And once in a while that feels satisfying, but that's the only aspect of it is, and there's--

PAUL: You want more of that.

JENNY: Some sort of more service, contributing in a bigger, more important way.

PAUL: You know, I think the more we get to know ourselves, the more potential there is to find out what is the best fit for us, and I think so many of us, myself included, could only view what I was going to do for a living from what stroked my ego the most and what would bring me the most material satisfaction. And the second support group I got into completely changed how I felt about that, and I learned how to become vulnerable, and then that kind of became the key to wanting to do what I do on this one.

If I hadn't discovered how awesome intimacy and vulnerability are, I would never have ventured to do this podcast, and it's the only thing I'm doing now for a living, but I love doing it. So, it's like, I had to do that work for that door to open, and, I don't know, I just have the feeling, when we go deeper into ourselves, you know, not in a navel-gazing way, but in a, you know, how can I become a person with more integrity and more loving and compassionate and open, I don't know, things just seem to meet us halfway.

Maybe they're all around us already and we just suddenly see them. I don't know. That was pretty Zen. There's a riddle for you.

JENNY: Right?

PAUL: Go fucking think about that and meditate for--

JENNY: That's a good one.

PAUL: --for 15 hours--

JENNY: Quantum physics, it just comes to you.

PAUL: --on beans and veggies. Let's do some loves.

JENNY: As much as I'm not religious, I'm a pretty spiritual person, and there's certain places I can go in nature or I can just stand up on top of a hill and just feel wind. And in a normal day, I can't stand the wind, but I just, I feel the most connected kind of to the universe and the most at peace just standing on a hill, like wind, and no people. I can think of a trail by my house, and further, just love that feeling of when you actually feel connected, you know.

PAUL: Mm-hmm. I love the sound of perfect silence, in the winter, in the mountains, above the tree line, because all of nature is asleep at the moment and when there's no wind it's perfectly silent, and it is the purest, it changes you physically, you know, during that time. It's insane. Insane is a terrible word for it. It's beautiful. Go ahead.

JENNY: My son has this ritual that I love. Because I'm always running around the house like a wild maniac when I'm actually home, I have so much to do, whenever I put him to bed at night, he insists on this, I can't even remember what order it goes in because he runs the whole thing, but it's like kiss on the forehead, kiss on the other person's forehead, kiss on the lips, kiss on the lips.

And it's funny how, when I'm really rushing, this ritual that has to be, I can get like anxious about it, like, oh, God, here it comes tonight, like can we just do a quick kiss, and it always just like fills me. He makes me stop, which is cool. I love that.

PAUL: Because in that moment you see that, oh, this is a human being with needs, this isn't just my son. This is a living, breathing person whose heart is open right in front of me, and that's what life is all about, is those, I know that sounds cliché, but it really is.

JENNY: He teaches me a lot about love because I can be decently kind of cold, and he's very warm and loving and that's, that's something, I sort of hadn't put that together, but he really, every night when I have him, makes me stop and kind of fill in that way, which is great.

PAUL: He sounds like a sweet kid--

JENNY: Oh, man--

PAUL: --who's in touch with his needs.

JENNY: Very much so.

PAUL: Yeah, that's beautiful.

JENNY: And has good boundaries. I don't know where he's learning it [chuckles], but yeah.

PAUL: That's like one of the greatest gifts that you can give your kid, is an ability for them to realize that there are basic needs that all human beings have and that they are kind of our emotional skeleton, you know.

JENNY: I think that's the coolest thing about being a mom in recovery, is to have a clue what the handbook to life is and actually be teaching some of that stuff.

PAUL: Yeah. I love when I take my dogs out at night before I go to bed, so it's sometimes, you know, 3:00 in the morning, when it's super quiet out and all you can hear are, you know, just the, I don't know if there are birds at that hour, but, and there's a little bit of dew on the grass, and I take my socks off and I go and I sit in a chair in the middle of the lawn in the backyard, and while they're doing their business, I just feel the grass on the bottom of my feet and just the slight coolness of the wet grass, and it just feels soothing, and the little blades of grass underneath my feet, it almost feels a little like nature is giving me a little foot massage before I go to bed.

JENNY: That's a good one. I love when I'm really tired and I get in bed, and I'm very much the opposite of you, I'm an early-to-bed person, but I have a little funny cat and he always, I get in bed, I put the covers over me, and I like sleep with the covers over my head, but he'll be up in about five seconds and he sort of like bats at my head so that I move the covers and he climbs in and he sort of cuddles in a circle right like at my belly level, and he just, I don't know, right there, just that kind of getting in bed, tired, cat little ritual.

PAUL: I had this moment this morning in bed, well, this afternoon [chuckles] in bed, it was about 1:00 and I was just waking up, and my dogs are usually attuned to when I get up. They can tell because I move around in the bed a little bit differently. And they both came up, one on one side of me, and I was on my back, one on the other side of me, and they both leaned their backs against my legs and I was scratching both of their bellies at the same time--

JENNY: Aw.

PAUL: --and I felt like Edward Scissorhands, but they were dogs instead of scissors for hands. It was like they were both, it was like we, it was like they were both my arms that, you know, they were both attached to my--

JENNY: That's funny.

PAUL: --to my arms.

JENNY: What kind of dogs are they?

PAUL: Oh, they're just shelter mutts, but they're, they have really distinct personalities.

JENNY: Those are the best kind.

PAUL: They're the most grateful. You open the front door and they're like, no, I'm going to stay here, I've been out there, I'm good.

JENNY: There's something about, some of my angst takes itself like to be cold in relationships. Like, when I'm really like full of angst, I can't give love, take love, but like it's okay with animals somehow.

PAUL: They're so safe to love.

JENNY: Right? It's a safety thing, I guess, so it's really, it really helps me.

PAUL: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing your life with us. And it's always nice to have somebody on who's in support groups, who can share that particular trip, because it is a particular trip and it's so beautiful and it's why I always get on my soapbox about them, because I want everybody to experience the good ones, at least, to experience the good support groups.

JENNY: Yeah.

PAUL: Thank you so much.

JENNY: Thank you so, so, much.

PAUL: So, a little update on Jenny R. in the two years since we recorded. I sent her an e-mail saying that I was going to put her episode up, and she wrote, shit, I guess I'm excited and nervous. I think I stalled out my personal work there for a while, so I think it will be a little sad to hear myself talk about a lot of the stuff that I'm still going through now and realize the lack of progress.

I took a huge leap with the eating disorder and have been working with a top specialist in the area and paying through the nose, but making huge strides and learning so much. She's a psychiatrist and Ph.D. nutritionist but he uses behavior modification rather than medication.

I also worked with a neuroscientist, Darya Pino Rose, who really helped me with habits and mindfulness and who I continue to talk to via e-mail. I just finished my Ironman despite all this crap, and I'm training for a 50-mile ultra run in Bryce Canyon in June. Nature will always be my sanctuary, and the muddy trails are my playground this winter.

As far as my second marriage, it's full of so much more love and good times, but much harder difficulties and much bigger challenges. Relationship are hard, exclamation point. I've gotten nowhere with my hate-and-love polarity. I'd love to talk more with you about that. I feel a much bigger sense of commitment to him than my first husband because I have a sense of ownership of my issues. I know they will just follow me if I don't work them out here.

Thank you for that. I love, too, what a great example that is of the two steps forward, one step back of recovery and personal growth. It's so unrealistic to expect it to be a clear, linear, straightforward line that's never confusing.

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All right, I, nice batch of happy moments and awfulsome moments. You guys know that those are like Christmas to me. I think I said maybe a couple episodes ago, would you guys please take more, fill those out more, because we always need that, like the lightness or the laughter, at least I feel like it does, because I don't want the podcast to be two hours [chuckles] of unrelenting darkness, which, by the way, was the name of my first goth cover band.

This is a happy moment filled out by GlennRhee, and she writes, when I was young, around eight or nine, warm Sunday afternoons are spent at the racetrack, where my uncle and father raced radio-controlled cars. I said this was a happy moment, right? Yeah. My job was to stand in the middle of the track on a dirt mound and flip the cars when they landed on their backs.

I took too much pride in my-, oh, I took much pride in my job, and whenever I looked at my father he'd give me a thumbs-up. On my break, I'd go across the street to the animal shelter where I'd feed hay to the horses through a chain-linked fence. My uncle would always have to call me back once my break was over, yelling, come on, kid, duty calls, and I'd run back, loving how good it felt to be needed. Love it. Thank you for that.

This is a shame and secrets survey filled out by a guy who called himself Maura Larling, and I'm just going to read part of it. He is, no, I'm going to read the whole thing. What do you think of that? How's that grab you? Is that a deal-breaker? Do we need to get back to the negotiating table? You're going to counter with half a survey and we'll agree on three-quarters of a survey. Our lawyers will sign the papers and then, to fuck you over, I will read the whole survey and dare you to sue me.

And you will, but then I'll keep delaying the court case by filing motions. And then, eventually, I'll be like 98 when it does finally come around, but then I'll be like, you know, one of those weasely guys that fakes a heart attack so that [chuckles] the court case can't go on, and then I'll die in the hospital, and I will have won. Continuing [chuckles].

He is, he's 16, he's gay. He was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, is being raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, never been sexually abused but he has been physically and emotionally abused.

My parents have throughout my whole life compared me to my older siblings. They would oftentimes tell me how much of a disappointment I am and tell me how much better my siblings are and tell me how shameful me being obese is. At school, teachers kept telling my parents that I’m gifted, and then my parents have since, since-, I think he put in, accidentally put two sinces in there, have since then continued telling me how pathetic I am, that I would get all this, quote, talent and still be such a worthless human being. I've also been used many times by friends throughout my life to make me look awful and, therefore, boosting their self-esteem. Not sure if this counts, though. Those are both emotional abuse.

Darkest secrets. Well, most of me is a secret. I do a lot of work to hide my true self from others and try very hard to always be joking and smiling, even when all I can think about is slitting my wrists. Oh, buddy, I just want to hug you.

There are multiple dark secrets people don't know about me, but if I had to choose one, I would probably choose that I have and still manipulate people to do awful things and I feel really bad about it but struggle to stop. It's secret that I'm gay, not Christian, not happy, needy as hell, cry multiple times a day, self-sabotage, and many more.

Well, you know, I just want to say, you have been raised in an emotionally abusive, invalidating, mind-fucked pressure cooker, and on top of it, you're having to hide your sexuality. My God, who wouldn't have issues? Who wouldn't be stressing out? Who wouldn't be trying to find power wherever they could grab it? And that's not to co-sign what it is that you're doing. It's to give you a hug and say, okay, now you're aware of that, what can you do to help with that? Where can you find help? But along the way, don't beat yourself up, because, Christ, you're not getting any love at home. You might as well try to love yourself, and I know that's easier said than done.

Let's see. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? When I was 14, I was part of a concert where I, as a guy, played Cinderella. I was very nervous and self-conscious before the show and a girl, who was four years older than me at the time, and had been, I have the feeling she's probably still four years older than you, and had been very friendly towards me for the few weeks I knew her.

She was in charge of our scene, looked me straight in the eyes and told me that I can be the show stealer if I wanted to and that she knows I can, and then gave me a hug. In that moment, I felt so overwhelmed with genuine love and it felt amazing. I felt like someone for once actually believed in me and loved. And I went out on the stage, and the next day everyone was complimenting me. I've never been able to talk to her about that. I can't work up the nerve.

That is such a beautiful moment, that is. Have you shared these things with others? No. I feel no intimate connection with my, quote, friends since to them I'm basically a clown. I would never talk to my parents about anything like this, and there isn't anyone in my life I feel comfortable discussing this with.

How do you feel after writing these things down? Shocked. Shocked at how good I have gotten at completely repressing so many things and emotions on a daily basis and never slipping up. I honestly don't understand how it's even possible. Guess it just takes a lot of practice.

I really hope for you that you can find your people, when you're able to move out of your house and find the love and acceptance that is out there in the world, sadly just not in your home and with the people that you interact with at school, but I really, that is not a pipe dream. That is doable. I'm sending you a big hug.

Speaking of musicals, by the way, I thought I was going to hate La La Land and I really liked it [chuckles], which kind of confused me, because I don't like musicals. I'm tired of Hollywood patting itself on the back. But it brought up such nostalgic feelings for like musicals from the '50s and '60s and even the '70s, and the actors in it are just great. Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone, just they have such great chemistry. I don't know what made me go off on that, but.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by Tommathy Conrad [chuckles]. Tommathy, I like that. He's a teenager. He writes, I was in a fight with my mother when I was a teenager and we were shouting at each other and I said, I wish you had aborted me. She was taken aback, but not for the reason I thought. She looked at me and said, so did your dad tell you? This was how I found out my parents tried to abort me. Fuck, dude, that is hall-of-fame awfulsome.

Mufasa shares in a shame and secrets, I’m sorry, a struggle in a sentence survey about his depression. Drowning myself in dirty dishes and empty Chinese food containers because I can't get off the couch without experiencing separation anxiety. Well put.

About his love addiction. Our first date isn't until next week but I'm already planning our wedding. About sexual bias. Having all of my relatives refer to my past boyfriends as my friend or buddy, because they don't want to acknowledge I’m gay. About having borderline personality disorder. I love you until I decide to hate you.

Any comments to make the podcast better? I'd love to hear from men who have been diagnosed with BPD. My first few therapists dismissed my concerns about possibly being borderline because I am a man. That is jaw-dropping. But there you have it. It's, sometimes I have the urge to want to call out by name bad therapists and shame them [chuckles], but that would not be good.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by TraumaMomma. And she writes, a few years ago my dad had a stroke. It affected his speech, cognitive abilities, and balance and walking. He was no longer able to ski, which had been his life. After a few weeks, he seemed to improve. At Thanksgiving I was amazed at how much I could understand him, and he was even walking without a walker. By Christmas, I was telling people that I felt like I got my dad back. Let's see.

He said, one day he said, Madonna was just on talking about the women's march, she's still the best, isn't she? And that's when I knew my dad really was back. See, he always used to call me and talk about Madonna or some other Hollywood gossip, kind of his way of mocking people who followed it, but also because he was a bit into it. It was always annoying and would make me roll my eyes and scoff, like, how did he always find the most inconvenient times to call. And yet, this time, I felt annoyed and then so very thankful, like I hadn't realized how much I missed those annoying phone calls about Madonna.

Kind of reminds me of the, you know, the first month that I started living on my own here and Ivy wasn't there with her bark, and, which used to annoy the shit out of me, and, man, that first month when I would do something that would normally make her bark and she wasn't there to bark, I was like, fuck, it feels so empty.

This is a happy moment filled out by Amanda the Cat Lady. And she writes, I was really happy when about three days after my family got our new kitten, I finally had the chance one night to cuddle with her alone when I couldn't sleep due to insomnia. Having someone, albeit a furry someone, there with me during those lonely hours, it was one of the best feelings after knowing what it's like to spend that time alone. I didn't have to say a word to her. She was just there, purring, happy I was there. The pressure of, what are they thinking about me, was gone, and I got to just privately hang out with this adorable kitten. I've never had a pet before, and as someone who has extreme social anxiety, I think it's a shame my family didn't get one way earlier. I love that.

And that, I didn't realize that is one of the reasons why I think so many of us love and feel safe around pets, is, yeah, you don't ever think, oh, I wonder if they're judging me [chuckles]. You know, I, I mean, even if they did judge you, what's like the worst thing they would think? Oh, my God, you're so stingy with treats. I can't believe you beat yourself up for napping. There is nothing, there is nothing like the, just crawling into bed or laying down on the floor and just loving your dog or cat or muskrat or whatever you fucking weirdoes pet [chuckles]. You like how I just turned on you, in a nice little moment? No, I pulled out my switchblade. I cut you. I'll cut a bitch.

And speaking of bitch, this survey was filled out by Queen Bitch. She's trans female. She is gay, in her 20s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. Ever been the, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. My brother and I talked about sex and he asked if he could fuck. I said yes, because he'd caught me watching porn and I wanted him to keep quiet. He threatened to tell our mom about the porn a few times after that in order to get me to do sexual things. I was 11 and he was 13. I never said anything to anyone and I forgave him, but sometimes I feel like I'm drowning in guilt. I'm not sure if this counts, but I also had a fucked-up relationship with my 35-year-old teacher at 14.

Yes, that is, that's not a relationship. That's statutory rape.

I'm ashamed to say that even though I'm gay I'd fuck him if we met today, almost dragged him into a bathroom after a funeral two years ago. It's disgusting.

No, you're not disgusting. That is one of the ways that our brain copes with that kind of trauma, so that is no reflection on you as a person, so stop beating yourself up about that. And please talk to someone about what you went through.

Any positive experience with these abusers? I have so many positive experiences with my brother. We're very good friends and I forgave him a long time ago, but nothing can ever make him raping me go away and I feel so guilty for hanging on to it.

It is not your choice to hang on to it. That is there because that is one of the things that trauma does, and so do not shame yourself for still having those feelings. Talk to somebody. There are tons of great ways to process trauma.

Darkest thoughts. I'm a lesbian with OCD and my violent intrusive thoughts and fantasies about being raped by a gang of men never ceases. Darkest secrets. I'm addicted to benzos and I drink more and more. Today I had a mojito for breakfast before a psychiatrist appointment.

Please, please, please, get honest with somebody about your drinking because it will only get worse. Alcoholism and drug addiction are progressive illnesses, and they never, they never get better. And mixing those two, benzos and alcohol, is really dangerous, and especially withdrawing off of benzos without the guidance of a doctor, you definitely want to, if you've been taking a lot of benzos for a long time, please, please, please.

Sexual fantasies. I'm into rape kink and I feel like absolute shit about it. Don't. That is not your choice what you're turned on by.

Have you shared these things with others? I haven't shared any of this because there's no one I trust with it. I feel ashamed of it and I don't want anyone to know. I think we all know what holding that shame in feels like. It feels safe, but slowly, man, it just drags us down. And so, I urge you to find somebody safe. I'm sending you some love.

This is a struggle in a sentence filled out by Can I Just Go Back to Playing With Legos?, and his issues are depression, ADD, anxiety and drug addiction. And snapshot from his life, oh, no, what I wanted to read about this was a comment that he made.

He writes, sometimes I wish you would talk about addiction with the same sort of compassion that you use towards people who practice self-harm. I've done both for the same reason. I realize that some addicts are prone to exploiting, manipulating and abusing other people, but some are just self-destructing in a way that's far more implosive than explosive.

Thank you for that, because that really did kind of open my mind, and I realized that I think I am harder on addicts and alcoholics because I am one, and I guess I forget that, that that may come across that way, as not compassionate to people. But the place that I have difficulty having compassion for people is when they have an issue that they know is destructive, especially to other people, but they choose to not get help and they continue to hurt other people, and that's when I really struggle with it.

But, you know, when somebody is seeking help for something and is admitting that what they're doing is disruptive or hurting other people or themselves, it's so much easier for me to be compassionate. But I am, you know, I'm human. I'm part cyborg, but there's a large part of me, there's a swath of human that runs through my motherboard.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by The Friendliest. And he's trans male. When I was 14, I was hospitalized after I attempted to take my own life. I spent a week in intensive care, where I spent all my time asleep. I then spent a week in a psychiatric hospital. I was vegan at the time, so there wasn't really anything that the hospital served that I could eat. I was starving and all I wanted was a peanut butter sandwich the way that my father made them. Initially the hospital wouldn't let my father bring me a sandwich because he could hide something in it or something.

After a couple of days of me not eating, however, they finally caved and said that he was allowed to bring me one sandwich a day. Those peanut butter sandwiches were probably the best-tasting things that I have ever eaten in my life. Thank you for sharing that.

And I just want to share some gratitude for the support that this podcast is given by people in the trans community. The gay community, the trans community, I mean, suffice it to say, just the non-binary, I don't need to explain it. It just really, really touches me that you find comfort in the podcast, because so often I feel like, hm, like my ignorance is going to [chuckles], is going to show and people are going to, you know, abandon me [chuckles]. That's so sad. It was so fucking, oh.

You know what's really nice, though, is when you stop fighting the fact that you're a mess. That's like the day my life got better, when I went, you know what? I'm a mess. I'm trying to get better, and I'm a mess.

This is a shame and secrets survey filled out by Mrs. Hyde. And she is 22, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, was the victim of sexual abuse and reported it. Any positive experiences with the abusers? She writes, my mother had two different boyfriends who I thought loved me. The first one was with a man who I had known since I was three. The abuse started when I was 10.

Any positive experiences with the abusers? I still love my mom, and her refusal to talk about what she did makes me feel that I'm being too hard on her or exaggerating. Oh, and she's talking about the physical abuse and emotional abuse that her mom did. She'd often lose her temper and threaten her with violence, calling her names like stupid, retarded or curse words. Sometimes she'd hit me in anger. Once half of my face was swollen and I was told to lie about it.

Darkest secrets. I overdrafted on both credit cards and my checking account in order to help my mom after she gambled her money away. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? I'd like to tell my mom that I'm not going to give her any more of my hard-earned money to gamble. I blame her for me being in debt after I completed an enlistment in the Navy and worked my ass off to save money. I'm now back in a rural area, living with her, while I'm as broke as I was when I left the Navy. I hate my life and I want to die sometimes. I can't reenlist because of my current mental health.

Have you shared these things with others? I've shared a bit with my girlfriend and she was understanding. She's encouraging me to get away from my mom. I would. I would listen to your girlfriend. And if you can't get away from your mom, because your mom, your mom has her hooks in you, and she has been playing you like a puppet since you were a little girl. I can so clearly picture your mom portraying herself as the victim, as fragile, whatever she needs to get what it is that she wants out of you at that moment.

And two things I think that I want to say about this. Ask yourself, if you were in your mom's shoes, would you gamble all your money away and then think it was right to guilt your daughter into giving you money? Then why should you be any different than what should apply to anybody else?

And the other thing is, it's very easy, you said here, I blame her for me being in debt. You have a part in you being in debt because you lent her that money. You did not have to lend your mother money. Now, I understand that you are up against something that is huge. You are up against emotional and mental manipulation by somebody who sounds masterful at it.

And I only say that you have a part in this so that you can understand you have a choice. And if you find yourself unable to choose to not give her more money, get help. Get help for it. That is your responsibility to yourself, and to people around you. I hope that, I hope that made sense in the tone that I'm, that I meant. Had a little tough love in there. You couldn't see, but I actually started to take my belt off as I was doing that. And then I realized I'm in my pajamas and they have an elastic waistband.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by I'm Depressed. Hi, Depressed. I'm Dad. She writes, I was having the worst panic attack of my life related to a lot of terrible, no good, very bad things happening during that time. My mom was yelling at me, blaming my shaking and sobbing and gasping and crying on me not eating enough food. She was definitely projecting. She's borderline anorexic. She told me that if I was going to keep, quote, being like this, then she wasn't comfortable letting me go to college in the fall.

Her anger made my symptoms worse and she left me alone in the house, slamming the door behind her. I couldn't be alone. I called my grandma and incoherently blubbered to her, asking her to come over. She drove over immediately and didn't make me tell her what was wrong. She gave me a hug, made me toast, gave me a glass of water, calmed me down, and just stayed with me on my bed. I wasn't able to tell her about all the fucked-up stuff going on in my life. I still struggle to talk about it. But it meant the world to me that she was willing to be there and love me and just stay there with me.

That is so beautiful. That is so beautiful. It's so hard sometimes when we're uncomfortable seeing people in pain, it's so hard to just sit with them in their pain and not try to get them out of it. You know, sometimes just sitting and just in silence, holding their hand or sitting on the couch with them, letting them lay their head in your lap or just listening.

This is filled out by It's Never Sunny in Rochester. Ah, I see what you did there. And she writes about her anxiety, a never-ending game of Pac-Man where I am constantly 