Glimpsing the nightly news or scrolling through your Twitter timeline on any given day, it might seem like the United States is on the cusp of achieving bipartisan, comprehensive criminal justice reform. In reality, however, many of the reforms being proposed or enacted are relatively modest in scope. In this episode, Daniella and Ed are joined by Emily Bazelon, staff writer at The New York Times Magazine, and Rachel Barkow, professor at the New York University School of Law, who have both authored new books exploring system-upending ways to end the cycle of mass incarceration. Bazelon and Barkow consider the role of the prosecutor in these reforms as well as ways to insulate justice reform from political influence or populist whims.

Learn more about the podcast here.

Daniella Gibbs Léger is the executive vice president for Communications and Strategy at the Center for American Progress. Ed Chung is the vice president for Criminal Justice Reform at the Center. Kyle Epstein is the media relations manager at the Center. Chris Ford is the broadcast coordinator at the Center.