Prior to Team Liquid's victory in the iBUYPOWER Summer Invitational, and qualification for DreamHack Stockholm 2015, theScore eSports talked to the team's two newest additions, Spencer "Hiko" Martin and coach/manager James "GBJame^s" O'Connor. The pair discussed their pasts, plans for Team Liquid and what they think a team needs to reach greatness.

Hiko, one thing that was never really discussed was why you chose not to play with your former roster after the Cologne qualifiers. Why did you choose to step away from that lineup?

Hiko: I think joining that roster to begin with wasn't the greatest of moves. I had some offers on the table and Semphis pretty much convinced me that his team could be good. That they had a good foundation and that we would be able to be a top team.

When I started playing with them, there were a lot of problems. A lot of role issues that we had. Moving forward all the way to just before Cologne, which is kind of a big leap, Nihilum was three months late on our salary. Every month that they didn't pay us, the team’s motivation got lower and lower until finally, a week and a half before the qualifier, Nihilum came to us and said, “Hey, we need to drop you. We know we owe you money, hopefully we can pay you back, but here are the termination contracts. That’s it, good luck.” There were two ways we could have taken that. The first one was, you know, “let's give a middle finger to Nihilum, get super motivated and try to win so we can get a different org and stick together,” or the route that we unfortunately went down, where a lot of the motivation was killed right then and there.

We were looking for organisations to support us, but it didn't seem like all five of us really wanted to stay together anymore. It wasn't really a great environment and it wasn't something I wanted to stick around with.

So you didn't think it was a great environment that would have worked out long term essentially?

Hiko: Yeah, I think after last season...We had to make a roster change early when we got rid of Automatic and brought in desi. All the roles were weird. People didn't really want to play certain spots. For example, we had Semphis AWPing for a bit, then we had him go back to rifling, then we talked about him being in-game leader as well. it was very dysfunctional. It just wasn't a great environment for a long lasting team.

In your AMA on Reddit, you mentioned that on Team Liquid, you're trying to play as more of an in-the-pack player rather than a lurker like you're known as. Were the role issues on Nihilum something that influenced you to change your role to fit into Team Liquid, rather than try to force yourself into a lurker role somewhere else?

Hiko: I think Nihilum was willing to use me however I wanted them to. That was probably one of the downfalls of that team. Bringing in Semphis and myself, they figured that if they put myself and Semphis in our best roles and filled in around us, then that would cause the best outcome for the team. Looking back, I think we did that wrong. I think it should have been myself and Semphis playing around the younger guys. With that being said, I think that my role on Cloud9 as the slow lurker is becoming more and more infrequent these days. I don't think that passive lurker on the other side of the map that holds the flank is as necessary anymore, especially when you have these younger, more aggressive lurkers going in and making plays. There is almost no room on a team for both styles anymore. In my eyes, there is definitely some kind of reinvention going on where I'm trying to become a more supportive player.

Here is the interesting thing. Throughout my time on C9 I probably knew two or three set smokes on all the maps, not on each map, in total. After the weekend at ESWC with FlipSid3, I learned ten different smokes, and I still remember them today. Using that kind of knowledge, and the change of play style for Liquid, I don't think you'll see me trying to take a superstar lurker role. Recently it's been working out well if I just stay alive and throw flashes and smokes and 'nades for EliGE and Nitr0 to entry out. That's probably where my transition will be into Liquid.

Is anything about the change in lurking coming from the fact that a lot of the NA scene is filled with younger players who tend to want to play aggressively? Do you think you trying to play a more support oriented style will help you fit into the scene going forward?

Hiko: I think so. I think inherently, I've always been passive. And I think that's fine. But I don't think using me as a lurker is the best use of my skill set. I've never been the guy to have really sick aim. Even when I was in my best form, I would never go and rush a site and just kill everybody. I was always best in close situations, post plant, 1v3s, 2v3s. It also makes me a more versatile player for our strategies, and it frees up FugLy to do whatever he wants as the lurker.

For James, was talking Hiko into a supportive role something you had to do when you brought him into the team?

James: I just knew that the team needed to be on an equal skill level. So, that's where it started with Spencer. Something like: “Let's just get him in because he's an awesome player.” Also the team lacks experience right now. The first thing I did when I met all the Team Liquid guys was I walked into a hotel room at CEVO LAN and said “Hey, I'm James, tell me your experience.”

From my experience, you don't get your head around CS until your seventh invite season, and that's almost three years worth. EliGE said he had played a season, and I was like “oh boy, that's like six months. Not long.” Nitro had four or five, which is maybe a year or two. Fugly had the same or a little bit more. When I went to adreN and asked, he said "I played the entire season of invite for CS: Source," which is awesome. And then he played all of invite for CS:GO. That's a guy with a lot of experience. flowsicK had a lot of experience too, but I felt his skill level was a little lower than the rest.

I don't really view Spencer as a lurker or anything. I see someone who's been around for awhile, and we needed someone with a little more skill at the time compared to flowsicK. I thought that unfortunately flowsicK had his time. I think he's an incredible person and a great team player, but I thought that, where he was in his career, he should have been a little more refined. I felt that Spencer fit the same role and he's a little better, so let's do that. Then it was about reassuring and getting the other players to go. So I'm not so much specifically on roles.

Trust me, I'm defining EliGE as a true entry fragger, on both CT and T side. If you look at our match against CLG in the PGL, he died five or six times first, without a trade kill, by himself. He clearly needs to understand when to not use his skill and when not to fight. Spencer knows when not to fight, and that'll bleed through to the other players. I didn't ask anything special of Spencer. Just for him to be here, at the table, to share his experience and allow me to focus my time on the other three players as well as adreN’s leadership. To buy me time, basically.

You mentioned working with the other three players and adreN’s leadership. Can you give an example of what you've been doing for the other players so far?

James: It's been pretty productive. I live about six blocks away from adreN. I didn't know that until we dug into it, which is awesome. I can go over to his house, it helps that we're close. I've been focusing on applying all the fundamentals and the layering of everything on offense and defense. My wife helped me, she let me brain dump, because I hadn't played the game competitively in three years, but I had played for ten before that. So I needed to get everything out of my brain and write it down.

What you saw with the team was basically the moment they went nuts was the moment that I left the team. I felt like I'd installed so much stuff, and they had to think so much. The moment I left, I'd say about half of that stuff was used and they went back to normal and then boom, they just went nuts.

Basically, I'm installing a lot of fundamentals in adreN’s calling, and then layering in how to delegate to his teammates. Specifically, how to free them up so that they can be the individual leaders themselves. How does EliGE be an entry fragger, call his entries, then do it, instead of his kills being random. Random is great, but it’s difficult to replicate, so he needs to get better at that on both CT and T.

When I came to the team, I felt like adreN was underwater. His teammates, Fugly and EliGE specifically, were frustrated because adreN wasn't listening to them. One, I don't know that he truly respected their experience, but also the amount of pressure they were under from match to match they just go, go, go. But I said “no, let's listen to them, we have to empower them as leaders on the team or else they'll never free up your mental capacity so you can be the best player you can be.” So we started doing that. Fugly started to be more of a leader on the team, I'm working with him on that, and I’m trying to train him up to be the second in-game, mid-round leader. I put roles on. Like: "retakes. EliGE, you are in charge of retakes. If a retake goes wrong, you figure out why it was wrong, I'll help you and figure out how to do it better." Because EliGE is probably one of the people that needs to focus on that the most. Where he goes without his team, so why not put him in charge of that and then he can take ownership of it. The other thing is, in mid-round, what are we doing? And that's Fugly. So I assign roles, and then we go from there.

A lot of what you’re saying is that you're trying to shore up weaknesses that are helped with experience. You and Hiko have been playing for a while now, and you said you wrote down everything you knew about CS. Is there anything that's different now from when you were playing?

James: The only thing that really made an impact, other than the maps—but I mean walls are walls—is really just the molly clearing out. The molly is cheaper than when I played, which really lets you utilize it as a terrorist to clear things out effectively.

I've played since CS came out basically, so I don't really feel like the game has changed too much. The fundamentals: trading, communication, paying attention, watching the clock, how much information you give the other team, and how much information you take in from them, that's all the same. So I'd say, really just the molly change, and the pistol meta obviously is a little bit different. That changes eco setups. I see people go fast on eco-rounds now and I want to rip my hair out. "What do you mean you rush on ecos, what are you doing?" I don't get it. But that's why I'm lucky to have these guys that are so experienced. We also have an analyst who will do things like checking to see if that's really the right move or not.

For Hiko, obviously, as a new addition to Team Liquid, what is your timeline and goals for your new team?

Hiko: I don't know if I really have a timeline. I think I'm here, and I'm here to stay, and I'm here to win. At the end of the day, as long as we are able to get results, then that's the ultimate goal. I think every move I've made in my career, at least in CS:GO... I get a lot of hate, I got a lot of notice from everything I've done, and a lot of people think “oh, Hiko is a terrible person” or "Hiko is doing the right thing”, but I'd like to say that everything I've done has been to better my chances of winning a tournament. There is no doubt in my mind that winning is the ultimate goal of this team and any team I've ever been on. I want to win, Liquid wants to win, and all the players on the team want to win, and that is our goal for however long we’re a team. Which is hopefully a long time.

James: I'll add a little piece to that. When I talked to Spencer about possibly joining the team, I asked why people were hating on him, and I said if the goal he was trying to achieve was to win, then I feel like this could be a real team, and we can figure it out together. It 's gonna take some time, it doesn't happen overnight. I think Spencer bought into that. Getting back to basics, reinvesting your time, and trying to form a really cool team instead of... I look at the roster changes, teams in 2007, 2008, they stuck together for two to three years with a roster, now people are changing every few months. It was tough for me to remove flowsicK to bring in Hiko when that's completely counterproductive to what I'm saying. You know, “don't make roster changes,” and the first thing I did was make a roster change. I did it because I felt that this was the right move, and I want to stick with it as long as possible.

You both are veteran players, what is your dream North American roster?

Hiko: I think that's a terrible question to ask. I don't really want to answer it.

How come?

James: Because ultimately everyone wants to say their team, no one wants to talk about anyone else. It's difficult to name any five players, because they'll just name something that's not a real team. Any group of players that have the will and desire to stick together long enough. I think the best team, and what my dream team is, is five players who want to work hard and stick together through all the loses and will do anything to get better.

So for you any team willing to do anything for each other and stick together is your dream team?

James: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Virtus Pro. I want that written down. I love TaZ and NEO, and I love how long they've stuck together.

Hiko: If you actually look at the NA scene, my core of people, the Cloud9/compLexity core: myself, Sean, Semphis, and Jordan. I think we are the longest team to stick together for a long time. We stuck together for two years. That's the goal again, develop a base, and stick together for as long as you possibly can, and that's why we were able to achieve a lot back then.

So stability is the number one priority for Team Liquid?

James: Yes. I think CS is about limiting mistakes. I don't think CS is hard. "Hey flash for me bro" and then shoot someone who's blind. It's not hard. But, the person who makes the least amount of mistakes wins. And you can’t get to that efficiency level, and you can't play as well as you can possible play while you're thinking about manufacturing teamwork. You unlock another level of skill when you can play without having to think constantly about what your teammates are doing, and you can't get to that level unless you keep a roster steady.

Hiko: Especially when you have the pressure of… you know, most American teams. You play bad for one season, you know you're getting cut. You know they are actively looking to replace you. Once you remove that—even if there are threads, and you're getting tweets about it—once everybody doesn't always have to be looking behind their back and be worried about being cut, it adds another layer of being able to play and focusing on doing better.

Five months ago, people were saying NA doesn't have enough support, stability and that they don't have enough time to practice. That's been changing, but what I'm sensing from you now is that you think the next step to putting the NA team aspect on par with what Europe has to offer is having five people stick together as long as teams like VP and most of NiP have.

James: It's the only way to do it. I shouldn't say this publicly; I'm giving the secret away! Look at CLG, they've stuck with that five for a long time. I don't put them on an absolutely exceptional skill level, but when they don't have to think so much, they play pretty damn well because they know each other's tendencies.

Hiko: The thing about CLG, they cut a player to get back the player they cut in the first place. Maybe they realized the mistake they made and took the guy back.

James: A lot of people don't understand that it's one step forward... but we took a huge step backwards when we got Hiko. It basically erased adreN’s brain for leading. He had trouble remembering half the stuff he used to do, and it had a big effect on our confidence. It's taken a while to rebuild that with Spencer. We knew that going in and we knew about the wait, but it's the way to go.

Is the plan then for Team Liquid going forward to take everything in baby steps and to find success by spreading experience throughout the team?

James: For me, what I'm going to try to do is role identify and bring leadership out in each way. The way EliGE plays, he controls the map like a CT AWP. He controls the map with his pressure. If he can get that more consistent, I want him to be the CT in-game leader aside from adreN. And he did it. In the matches we played, he called a boost on overpass, but adreN called him off, but he did it anyway and they got a kill. I don't know that he was doing that before, I don’t know if he was given the space for that before. But, I've ordered adreN to create that space and to delegate leadership. Once you do that, you create opportunities to fail, and then learn from failure, and not cut them when they fail. That is happening right now.

Opportunities, confidence, and then as people grow the chemistry will come.

James: Yeah, and they will unlock another level. These kids have some of the most incredible talent I've ever seen. So, once they play together as a team more and stop focusing so much on their skill… the problem that comes to my mind is that Liquid's problem as a team is not their skill level, it's knowing when to not use it. Simple as that. When not to use their talent, but when it is better to wait and be patient, and use their teamwork instead.

This interview was edited and condensed for clarity.

Jacob Juillet writes about Counter-Strike for theScore eSports. Follow him on Twitter.