The Minister of State of Housing and Urban Affairs on building toilets, clearing pollution, and cleaning up real estate

Two and a half months ago, in a surprise appointment, a former Indian Foreign Service officer was made Minister of State (Independent Charge) of Housing and Urban Affairs. Hardeep Singh Puri, who served as India’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations from 2009 to 2013, has a multitude of projects to deliver on, including the Prime Minister’s ambitious Smart Cities Mission, Housing for All, and Swachh Bharat Mission. Excerpts from an interview on the challenges ahead:

There are many concerns regarding the Smart Cities Mission, one of the flagship schemes of the Narendra Modi government. Around 80% of the funds are spent on just 2.7% of the area in each city. How does this make cities ‘smart’?

In an ideal world, where resources are unlimited, you could perhaps devise a scheme to ‘smartify’ the entire area. Clearly it’s not an ideal world. You have limited resources and you have to make a beginning somewhere. The present project, as I understand it, is the start of a process. It is not exclusive and it most certainly doesn’t mean neglecting other areas. There are other schemes like AMRUT (Atal Mission for Rejuvenation and Urban Transformation) which look at providing basic infrastructure. I don’t think there were any claims by the Smart Cities Mission to cover the entire city. I suggest you allow these schemes to unfold.

Do you envisage a greater role for private players in providing urban services, especially in the Smart Cities project?

In an ideal scenario, you should have the state and private sector in a happy blend. For much of the infrastructure like urban transport, especially metro projects which are capital-intensive, you need the state to step in. Personally, I have no doubt that unless you do the pricing right, world-class facilities will not be available. Safe transport, for example, cannot be subsidised by the state. It is just not sustainable. For example, I was travelling from Gwalior to Delhi and a four hour-long journey took eight hours for a variety of reasons. The price of the ticket was Rs. 900, obviously heavily subsidised. For comparison, in China which has a more efficient system, a ticket would cost Rs. 4,000.

November 19 was World Toilet Day. You tweeted that 40 lakh toilets have been constructed against the target of 68 lakh. But the question remains: who will maintain these toilets?

This is a purely rhetorical question. If the private sector is building toilets, the private sector will maintain them. Recently, during an inspection of toilets, I found someone urinating in close proximity to a public urinal. I remarked to my Secretary that I am sure this man is not doing so out of choice, but out of compulsion. The toilet must not be well maintained. As a result of that one inspection, we have drawn up a list of all public toilets in the NCR (National Capital Region). We have names of the authorities or agencies that build them, the name of the agencies responsible for their maintenance and the names of individual supervisors. The toilets were not getting maintained because no one was taking interest.

What happens when your government’s term ends?

Let me tell you this: this government is not going anywhere; we are going to be around for a long time. I am sure what we need to do is devise systems and fix accountability. I have been told that by merely drawing up a list of public toilets, there has been vast improvement. It was the first step towards fixing accountability. We are also planning to come up with a toilet template that will have specifications for odour levels, water availability, exhaust fans, and so on.

In this year’s budget, the government allocated Rs. 13,948 crore for Swachh Bharat Mission-Gramin and merely Rs. 2,300 crore for Swachh Bharat Mission-Urban. Why is there such a big disparity even when the urban population is growing at a faster rate than the rural population?

Their (rural mission) task is much larger. For the period of 2014 to 2019, the gap in the number of toilets was found to be 68 lakh, out of which 40 lakh have been built and 14 lakh are under construction. Budgetary allocations reflect the amount of work we need to do. Tomorrow, if we have more people coming to urban areas, of course we will need to do more. For now, the budget is sufficient.

As per government estimates, nearly 75% of waste collected by municipal bodies goes to the dumping yard untreated.

We need to enhance our capacity. And capacity augmentation should not come from the government alone. Others must be encouraged to enter too, in order to produce viable economic propositions. If your question is, ‘I see so much dirt around’, then my advice would be to click a picture and upload it on the Swachh Bharat App. I am told there is 75% compliance. We are dealing with an issue which previous governments have been brushing under the carpet. The Opposition criticised Prime Minister Narendra Modi for speaking about Swachh Bharat from the ramparts of the Red Fort. I think he was right to do so. When a Prime Minister takes up an issue, it becomes a national andolan . Today, on lines of satyagrahis we have swachhgrahis .

Is Swachh Bharat more rhetorical than real?

Rhetoric would mean there is more talk and no work. Which isn’t true; there is work being done on the ground. And at least there is talk. At least we are shaming people.

There is criticism that excessive emphasis on building toilets is promoting manual scavenging.

We have done more than we can. We have banned it, we are taking effective steps to discourage it, we are buying advanced machines. Criticism like this is not constructive.

Recently, the alarming levels of pollution in Delhi made headlines all over the world. Other cities are no better. What is your solution to tackle pollution?

The solution is not to swing into action just when you have that problem but to find a lasting solution. One is to de-congest cities. We made a plan in 2016. My Ministry cannot take all the measures; there is a lot that the Delhi government needs to do. I have spoken to Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal and I have a couple of demands. First, Metro Phase-IV that has been pending for three years... he should bring in the proposal and we will clear it right away. Then there are the Delhi-Meerut, Delhi-Ghaziabad corridors which need to be cleared. In so far as buses are concerned, we are seized of the matter. Of 11,000 sanctioned buses, less than half are plying in the city. I can’t buy buses for them. They have collected cess worth Rs. 800 crore to purchase buses, which is lying with them. We are also working with DMRC (Delhi Metro Rail Corporation) to take urgent steps for last-mile connectivity.

What are your views on the odd-even scheme?

I am not going to comment on the Delhi Chief Minister’s schemes. I have enough on my plate. I am very confident that the measures we have to take at the level of the Ministry of Urban Affairs... we will be able to take them. In any case, pressure seems to have eased a bit with improvement in air quality. However, my way of looking at it is a little different. Now that the air is slightly cleaner, we must take corrective action.

Do you agree that most of our cities are held to ransom by real estate speculators?

For 70 years, we didn’t have a regulator. The history of Indian real estate will be studied in two parts: pre- and post-Real Estate (Regulation & Development) Act, 2016 (RERA). Real estate was the epicentre of black money. If you had black money and you did not feel like keeping it at home in gunny bags or under your mattress, you gave it to a builder, who would book a flat for you in his next project. RERA, demonestisation and GST are instruments to clean this up. How many quarters will it take to clean up? I frankly don’t know. But two things will definitely happen — the speculative bubble that was going on due to black money shall be broken. And land prices will get more realistically aligned.

Has implantation of RERA gone the way you expected, especially the way States have adopted the Act?

By itself there is nothing wrong in RERA. As per the Act, if you are taking money for a project, you are supposed to keep 70% of it in an escrow account. This clause is to ensure that builders don’t divert money meant for ‘X’ project to any other project. You can’t go wrong with this. In the process of adopting RERA, some State governments tweaked the provisions for ongoing projects. They diluted the Act and that was wrong. There are good builders and bad builders. Recently I was in Mumbai and a set of builders told me that they are unhappy that RERA was challenged in court. The case has been going on in the Mumbai High Court for the last fortnight and we will get a judgment any time soon. But importantly, by the tenor of the interaction, I think it must be clear to the buyers where my Ministry’s sympathy lies. We are not against builders, but at the same time we can’t be mute spectators.

As per a McKinsey Global Institute report, India’s per capita spending on urban infrastructure is just $17, compared to $116 by China. Does such low allocation worry you?

I agree with you that we need to spend more on infrastructure. My response on these statistics will not be to agonise on how much we spend and how much more we need to spend, but rather to find ways to get more funds. And the gap is simply because we are a $2.5 trillion economy and they are $12 trillion economy. The least I should be able to spend is five times more than what I am spending today to have comfortable urban spaces for a growing population.

Are you confident that by the time your term comes to an end, there will be visible change on the ground?

I assure everyone that by June 2018, you will be able to see the physical manifestation of Smart Cities. By March 31, 2018, 500 cities will bring all building approvals online. Make a note of this and you can hold me accountable for it.

I have no doubt that unless you do the pricing right, world-class facilities will not be available. Safe transport, for example, cannot be subsidised by the state. It is just not sustainable.

Real estate was the epicentre of black money. The Real Estate (Regulation & Development) Act, demonestisation and GST are instruments to clean this up.