Hi! So my friend and I were talking about Oz the other day about whether he was more like Dumbledore or Gandalf. She said Oz was more like Gandalf and I said he was like neither but does have aspects of both. I was wondering what you thought? (Your RWBY metas are amazing btw!)

itsclydebitches:

I’m so glad you’re liking the metas! And omg, you and your friend have excellent conversations and I’m thrilled to join in the mix. However, I should preface all this with: I’ve read the LotR books, seen the movies multiple times (hell yeah extended edition marathons), but I’m far more familiar with Harry Potter on the whole. I can’t compete with the encyclopedic knowledge that a lot of LotR fans possess and I’m definitely not going to try. To start, I can see a huge number of similarities between Oz and Dumbledore/Gandalf. I think you’re right. There are clear connections among the three due to their status as Wise Mentor Figures (something Oz complicates and that I’ll get into a bit below), but they’re all their own characters. Obviously. So yeah, I kinda just want to throw out a series of tangentially related points because my brain is mush and organization? Who’s she? First off, if we bypass the obvious commonalities here (teachers, wise men, authority figures, flawed keepers of power) I think that the way the three consolidate power is distinctly different—and that has a large impact on the rest of their characterization. Dumbledore, to be blunt, is the most manipulative in my opinion. He’s still very sympathetic, but to me he’s the one who has been the most warped by power. Yes, he refuses the position as Minister of Magic, though we see throughout the series that he has just as much power (if not more) as headmaster of the most prestigious wizarding school in the world, to say nothing of the power that comes with people assuming you have less than a political figure. Dumbledore might always have reasons and justifications for his actions, but he still gathers up as much power as he possibly can under the assumption that this is how you survive. He tries to regain the Minister’s ear. He creates and heads the Order of the Phoenix. He searches out powerful magical artifacts and tries to either master or destroy them. He’s not at all disturbed to learn that his prize student has been training a group of soldiers under the name Dumbledore’s Army, because ultimately that’s what he wants. Compare that for a moment with Ozpin ultimately walking away from being a god, refusing the power of a king after the Great War, and not running the school that feeds into a military (James). Dumbledore has reached the point where he sees the world as a chess game and believes he’s the only one capable of winning it. Keep reading

I’d like to contribute just a little to this, because while I haven’t considered Gandalf in comparison to Ozpin, I HAVE been comparing him to Dumbledore throughout the series from the start.

Before I do that, however, I would like to contribute two emotional moments from both Gandalf and Dumbledore which were not mentioned - specifically from Return of the Kind, where upon witnessing the annihilation of Mount Doom Gandalf’s utter joy immediately turns to horror and grief. He doesn’t have a breakdown, but like virtually all of the rest of the Fellowship does have a long, wordless moment of ‘Oh my god, I just got two of the purest souls I know killed…’ I think that bears mentioning. It’s not a moment of utter guilt or desolation, but it is a moment where we see Gandalf at his most vulnerable.

Dumbledore’s is from Deathly Hallows, Kings Cross chapter (I forget the number and don’t have my copy available). Dumbledore has a long conversation with Harry where he has the most open conversation of the entire series with Harry. Once again, I don’t have a copy available so I sadly can’t transcribe some of the more poignant statements, but I distinctly remember him saying, so baldly, “I was bitter, Harry.” His moment of weakness wasn’t delivered amidst desolation and tears but instead a conversation with his most treasured pupil, where he confesses with painful honesty his lowest moment of self-loathing. He comes full-circle as a human being in that moment for me, just as Gandalf did in the movie.



Now to compare them to Ozpin. Or, in this case, I would like to bring up one more aspect of Dumbledore compared to Ozpin, as I don’t have anything to add on Gandalf’s end.



Ozpin loves choice. It’s something that has troubled readers of Harry Potter for so long that Harry and his friends are essentially groomed for a war several years before it happens, and thrown into danger several times when just barely out of elementary school years (11-12 years old). There’s a lot of flak floating around the RWBY fandom that Beacon just trains child soldiers for war against the Grimm - which I think is ridiculous, but which has been firmly debunked by other, more salient posts. This is where Dumbledore is different from Ozpin - he never offers a choice to his students. He draws them in subtly, over time, and never asks them whether or not they’re happy with their situation or questions them about their contentions. Harry and his friends are given effective free reign to endanger their lives as mere children. Ozpin is different.



While he and his peers do refer to their students as children frequently through the earlier volumes, it has much different weight than the reality of Harry Potter and Hogwarts. RWBY’s students are of-age, 17 years old, and have attended multiple schools explicitly designed to train warriors, Signal and Sanctum being the only named examples I’m aware of. Ruby is the exception to the rule, and even she is 15 years old. In RWBY’s universe each student has made an explicit choice of what they want to do, over and over again. Training to become a huntress or huntsman is obviously incredibly difficult, as any vocation requiring an insane level of skill, fitness, knowledge, and tactics would attest. To reach that level would require a level of dedication that would by default force adherents to question their purpose daily - if not with every single exercise and swing of their weapon.

Where Dumbledore leads along his students as they further and further enmesh themselves in things far beyond their ken, Ozpin’s first on-screen actions are to question whether or not his students are willing to face the trials he will be putting them up against. “What is an adorable girl like you doing at a school designed to train warriors?” - and his opening speech to the school: “…It is up to you to take the first step.”



Choice. Honestly presented. While his actions in the later volumes regarding the war against Salem are more questionable - though I would like to remind skeptics that he DID offer them the choice to leave before bringing them in further - “There is no shame in abstaining, only in retreat.” - this first choice; the choice of a Huntress, as Oscar refers to it at Haven, is always presented and always honest. That’s a hell of a lot more respectable than what Dumbledore ever gave to his students.

The reason I love Ozpin so much is that not only is he interesting and charming as a person already, he also defies the tropes that embody the mysterious, powerful mentor-figure in a lot of recent fantasy media. He is Human, and really, he’s never NOT been human. From bringing the cookies to Ruby on their first meeting, smirking into his cocoa while launching students off of Beacon Cliff, comforting Ruby when she had her identity crisis as a leader, or offering her advice at the dance, he’s always been human.