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LegendaryActivity: 1386Merit: 1024 [4+ EH] Slush Pool (slushpool.com); Overt AsicBoost; World First Mining Pool November 27, 2010, 01:45:41 PM

Last edit: July 02, 2018, 01:04:28 PM by slush Merited by OgNasty (10), iluvbitcoins (5), ETFbitcoin (1), davis196 (1), coolcoinz (1), naypalm (1) #1





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Original post:

Once people started to use GPU enabled computers for mining, mining became very hard for other people. I'm on bitcoin for few weeks and didn't find block yet (I'm mining on three CPUs). When many people have slow CPUs and they mining separately, each of them compete among themselves AND against rich GPU bastards ;-), because everybody counts sha256 hashes from the same range. Two separate CPUs with 1000khash/s isn't the same as one 2000khash/s machine!. But new feature of the official bitcoin client called 'getwork' now enables work of many computers together, so they don't compete. Because there is now standalone CPU miner (thanks to jgarzik!) and 'getwork' patch is in official client now, I have an idea:



Join poor CPU miners to one cluster and increase their chance to find a block!



How that should work? There will be web page where you can register, enter your wallet address and get URL and your personal rpcuser/rpcpassword for your CPU/GPU miners. When you start own miner with these credentials, server will send you work which was not calculated yet by other members of cluster.



But when your client find winning hash, you do not get full reward for block (50BTC right now), but only proportional part, which you calculate. When you offer 1000khash/s for one day and whole cluster performance will be 20000khash/s and it takes two days to find a block, your reward will be (50/20/2=)1.25BTC.



Advantages? When you have poor standalone computer, you need to wait many weeks or even months for finding full 50BTC reward. When you join cluster like this, you will constantly receive small amount of bitcoins every day or week (depends on full cluster performance).



Disadvantages? You need to trust in central authority (me) that I don't steal block for myself. But I'm goofing around for few week and I'm amazed with bitcoin idea, so I don't plan to steal anybody right now :-).



Another possible problem is that somebody will ask for new work very often, but in fact he will not count real hashes. In this case it will look like he has very strong CPU and he should get big part of reward if cluster find a block. But there is a simple defense against cheaters: Central server sometimes send work which leads to 'winning' hash. Worker which don't return this hash as matching will be permanently banned (login/password and IP address). This was succesfully solved by letting miners calculate proof-of-work. It is not anymore possible to be a part of cluster and not count hashes.



Are you interested in? Once people started to use GPU enabled computers for mining, mining became very hard for other people. I'm on bitcoin for few weeks and didn't find block yet (I'm mining on three CPUs). When many people have slow CPUs and they mining separately, each of them compete among themselves AND against rich GPU bastards ;-), because everybody counts sha256 hashes from the same range. Two separate CPUs with 1000khash/s isn't the same as one 2000khash/s machine!. But new feature of the official bitcoin client called 'getwork' now enables work of many computers together, so they don't compete. Because there is now standalone CPU miner (thanks to jgarzik!) and 'getwork' patch is in official client now, I have an idea:How that should work? There will be web page where you can register, enter your wallet address and get URL and your personal rpcuser/rpcpassword for your CPU/GPU miners. When you start own miner with these credentials, server will send you work which was not calculated yet by other members of cluster.But when your client find winning hash, you do not get full reward for block (50BTC right now), but only proportional part, which you calculate. When you offer 1000khash/s for one day and whole cluster performance will be 20000khash/s and it takes two days to find a block, your reward will be (50/20/2=)1.25BTC.Advantages? When you have poor standalone computer, you need to wait many weeks or even months for finding full 50BTC reward. When you join cluster like this, you will constantly receive small amount of bitcoins every day or week (depends on full cluster performance).Disadvantages? You need to trust in central authority (me) that I don't steal block for myself. But I'm goofing around for few week and I'm amazed with bitcoin idea, so I don't plan to steal anybody right now :-).This was succesfully solved by letting miners calculate proof-of-work. It is not anymore possible to be a part of cluster and not count hashes.Are you interested in? Buy Trezor! | Slush Pool | SatoshiLabs

ribuck

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DonatorHero MemberActivity: 826Merit: 1007 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 02:35:56 PM #2 Quote from: slush on November 27, 2010, 01:45:41 PM Two separate CPUs with 1000khash/s isn't the same as one 2000khash/s machine! Actually, they are equal. The low-power machines aren't "racing" against the high power machines. For any given difficulty level, it doesn't even matter how many other machines are generating. If all the other machines dropped off the network, it wouldn't increase the number of blocks you generate (until the next difficulty level adjustment).



The only thing that counts significantly is the difficulty level and your khash/s. There are some relatively minor effects due to network latency, but they're not a big deal. Actually, theyequal. The low-power machines aren't "racing" against the high power machines. For any given difficulty level, it doesn't even matter how many other machines are generating. If all the other machines dropped off the network, it wouldn't increase the number of blocks you generate (until the next difficulty level adjustment).The only thing that counts significantly is the difficulty level and your khash/s. There are some relatively minor effects due to network latency, but they're not a big deal.

td



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NewbieActivity: 30Merit: 0 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 02:48:03 PM #3 I will offer a Six-Way AMD Processor to the Cooperative Mining Group. I tried generating for weeks on it to no avail. I have given up in the mean time and have instead purchased coins for use. I would love to turn the value of my tiny 9,000/k/hash/s into something productive. If nothing else as part of an experiment to make your software more secure. There is another thread already on the forum for the source code to Cooperative Mining but I am not sure that it was complete or successful. There appeared several people participating but no additional work from them. Perhaps it was so successful that they no longer wish to have additional participants into their group- I am unsure. My rate contribution may not win me blocks by myself but as a larger group hopefully I could be helpful. Please let me know if you move forward with this.

BitLex



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Hero MemberActivity: 588Merit: 500 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 02:48:49 PM #4 i always liked the idea of distributed mining,

with CPUs its actually the only chance you got to get some coins on a regular basis now and even using a GPU it already takes days to generate a block on your own, rising for sure.



call me in at least for beta-testing, there's always some cores around to share. public key

slush



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LegendaryActivity: 1386Merit: 1024 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 04:20:26 PM #6 Quote from: ribuck on November 27, 2010, 02:35:56 PM For any given difficulty level, it doesn't even matter how many other machines are generating.



You are true for long term. But I think many people with poor CPUs simply switch off their minings because they see it will take ages until they receive single bitcoin from that. When you are in cluster of cooperative miners, you will receive small amount (say 0.01 BTC if you contribute 0.02% to cluster performance) but more often. I feel that it may be a motivation for people to not shut down their miners.



I think it is extremely important for bitcoin economy to diversify mining across whole network and not leave mining on few lucky guys with fast GPUs.



Quote The only thing that counts significantly is the difficulty level and your khash/s.



Of course. The more khash/s in cluster, the more blocks found by cluster and more often payments to cluster members. You are true for long term. But I think many people with poor CPUs simply switch off their minings because they see it will take ages until they receive single bitcoin from that. When you are in cluster of cooperative miners, you will receive small amount (say 0.01 BTC if you contribute 0.02% to cluster performance) but more often. I feel that it may be a motivation for people to not shut down their miners.I think it is extremely important for bitcoin economy to diversify mining across whole network and not leave mining on few lucky guys with fast GPUs.Of course. The more khash/s in cluster, the more blocks found by cluster and more often payments to cluster members. Buy Trezor! | Slush Pool | SatoshiLabs

FreeMoney



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LegendaryActivity: 1246Merit: 1011Strength in numbers Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 04:26:49 PM #7 Quote from: slush on November 27, 2010, 04:20:26 PM Quote from: ribuck on November 27, 2010, 02:35:56 PM For any given difficulty level, it doesn't even matter how many other machines are generating.



You are true for long term. But I think many people with poor CPUs simply switch off their minings because they see it will take ages until they receive single bitcoin from that. When you are in cluster of cooperative miners, you will receive small amount (say 0.01 BTC if you contribute 0.02% to cluster performance) but more often. I feel that it may be a motivation for people to not shut down their miners.



I think it is extremely important for bitcoin economy to diversify mining across whole network and not leave mining on few lucky guys with fast GPUs.



Quote The only thing that counts significantly is the difficulty level and your khash/s.



Of course. The more khash/s in cluster, the more blocks found by cluster and more often payments to cluster members.

You are true for long term. But I think many people with poor CPUs simply switch off their minings because they see it will take ages until they receive single bitcoin from that. When you are in cluster of cooperative miners, you will receive small amount (say 0.01 BTC if you contribute 0.02% to cluster performance) but more often. I feel that it may be a motivation for people to not shut down their miners.I think it is extremely important for bitcoin economy to diversify mining across whole network and not leave mining on few lucky guys with fast GPUs.Of course. The more khash/s in cluster, the more blocks found by cluster and more often payments to cluster members.

I like the idea, but your rhetoric is awful.



Lucky guys with GPUs? Do you think those are distributed via lottery or something? I like the idea, but your rhetoric is awful.Lucky guys with GPUs? Do you think those are distributed via lottery or something? Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.

grondilu



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LegendaryActivity: 1148Merit: 1005 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 04:43:44 PM #8 Isn't cooperative mining a form of communism ?



Personnaly I gave this a thought and I think it's useless and much harder to do than one might think.



First I thought it was a problem if only a few nodes were capable of mining. Now I don't care anymore. Even if only one was mining all new bitcoins, I wouldn't care much. This node would do all the work recquired, and in the best way. Plus, anyone can take its place if it can hash more.



FreeMoney



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LegendaryActivity: 1246Merit: 1011Strength in numbers Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 05:10:45 PM #11 Quote from: grondilu on November 27, 2010, 04:43:44 PM Isn't cooperative mining a form of communism ?



Personnaly I gave this a thought and I think it's useless and much harder to do than one might think.



First I thought it was a problem if only a few nodes were capable of mining. Now I don't care anymore. Even if only one was mining all new bitcoins, I wouldn't care much. This node would do all the work recquired, and in the best way. Plus, anyone can take its place if it can hash more.





There is nothing wrong with voluntary communism. Not sure if you were implying that there is or not. I think someone has worked out the details of making it work, but I'm not sure. There is nothing wrong with voluntary communism. Not sure if you were implying that there is or not. I think someone has worked out the details of making it work, but I'm not sure. Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.

BitLex



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Hero MemberActivity: 588Merit: 500 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 05:26:00 PM #12 Quote useless and much harder to do than one might think i agree on the harder part, there'd be some problems to solve and hurdles to take,

but i don't think it's useless.



any bit of computing-power, be it from CPUs or GPUs, makes our network stronger.

it'll help even those that aren't generating at all, by protecting their coins.



people are willing todo lots of stuff, if you give them at least something in return.

currently you practically don't get anything for adding your cpu/s to the cloud, you probably have to pay for it, so why do it anyway?

most people won't, maybe they will if you give them just a few coins, or bitcents for what they do.



of course bitcoin in general is not about generating at all, but it's a nice way to attract it to a lot more people.

i agree on the harder part, there'd be some problems to solve and hurdles to take,but i don't think it's useless.any bit of computing-power, be it from CPUs or GPUs, makes our network stronger.it'll help even those that aren't generating at all, by protecting their coins.people are willing todo lots of stuff, if you give them at least something in return.currently you practically don't get anything for adding your cpu/s to the cloud, you probably have to pay for it, so why do it anyway?most people won't, maybe they will if you give them just a few coins, or bitcents for what they do.of course bitcoin in general is not about generating at all, but it's a nice way to attract it to a lot more people. public key

farmer_boy



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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 05:41:35 PM #13 This is fundamentally flawed. I can join the "effort" and figure out how long it generally takes to perform one unit of work. After that time I send a message "ah, too bad I didn't find anything". Then someone does find an answer and I collect.



Now, if I find the answer, I would simply communicate that to the rest of the network (not the central server) and there is no way for you to figure out that I double crossed you.



The distributed method there is now is a good way to mine. Possibly it would be better if it was easier to solve and that you would get less bitcoins, OTOH, people are still generating coins.

slush



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LegendaryActivity: 1386Merit: 1024 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 06:03:00 PM #14 Quote from: farmer_boy on November 27, 2010, 05:41:35 PM This is fundamentally flawed. I can join the "effort" and figure out how long it generally takes to perform one unit of work. After that time I send a message "ah, too bad I didn't find anything". Then someone does find an answer and I collect.



Do you mean somebody can cheat by simply asking for work, but not counting hashes? I talked about it already - I will send task which leads to 'winning' hash and when worker does not return it, I will ban them.



Quote Now, if I find the answer, I would simply communicate that to the rest of the network (not the central server) and there is no way for you to figure out that I double crossed you.



Also this kind of cheat will be detected by technique described above. You will succeed at most once before you will be banned by central server.



Quote The distributed method there is now is a good way to mine. Possibly it would be better if it was easier to solve and that you would get less bitcoins, OTOH, people are still generating coins.



Partially agree. But until one mined block will be for more than 1 BTC, cooperative mining should be still better for slow computers, because possible reward in coop can be also in BTC cents or less. Do you mean somebody can cheat by simply asking for work, but not counting hashes? I talked about it already - I will send task which leads to 'winning' hash and when worker does not return it, I will ban them.Also this kind of cheat will be detected by technique described above. You will succeed at most once before you will be banned by central server.Partially agree. But until one mined block will be for more than 1 BTC, cooperative mining should be still better for slow computers, because possible reward in coop can be also in BTC cents or less. Buy Trezor! | Slush Pool | SatoshiLabs

ribuck

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DonatorHero MemberActivity: 826Merit: 1007 Re: Cooperative mining November 27, 2010, 06:47:46 PM #18 The cheating problem has a trivial solution.



The distributed miners work to find a hash at a difficulty level that is considerably lower than the network requires. Whenever they find one, they send it back. When one of those hashes is difficult enough to meet the needs of the network, it generates 50 bitcoins which are distributed to those who have been sending in hashes at the easier level.



There's no way to look for easy hashes without also having a chance to find the occasional difficult hash. And when you find a difficult hash, there's nothing better to do with it than to send it back to the mining co-ordinator (because it's a hash that pays them 50 bitcoins, not one that pays you 50 bitcoins).



With this scheme there is no incentive to cheat, and no need for "banning".