Born in Belfast, Northern Ireland to a Catholic father and Protestant mother. He had the rare perspective of seeing all sides of the conflict both inside and outside his home, where he was raised Catholic in a violently Protestant neighborhood. He shares stories of having to endure violence walking to school every day because of his easily identifiable Catholic uniform. Today he is an architect who works on global projects that try to bring together communities torn apart by differences and violence.

Episode notes:



More About Our Guest

Michael is putting together a book of email drafts that people never sent. Contact him about sending yours at 100Drafts@gmail.com

Check out his architecture projects at www.sult.ie

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 397, with my guest, Michael Corr. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site and the Instagram and Twitter handle, uh, you can follow me at is 'mentalpod.' So, mentalpod.com, and then, uh, @mentalpod on social media. I, for those of you that are Patreon donors, I put up some, uh, pictures and a video from, uh, from Ireland. Really cool moment; I don't remember if I shared this on last week's episode or not. But, uh, we took a tour of the Dublin, uh, Guinness Factory, which is, I dunno, 3-400 hundred years old. And Guinness, when I was drinking, was my thing. And, I was tempted to ask one of the employees where's the wing that I built (chuckles). I used to drink quite a bit of Guinness. But, uh, anyway, I digress. Really cool tour. Actually, the thing that I thought was the coolest was, they had footage of, uh, from the early 1900s, of a guy with, just an axe and a couple of working tools, making a barrel from scratch. And I dunno if you folks know anything that goes into making a wooden barrel, but it is pretty, pretty complex. And for one person to do it all by hand with just an axe and, uh, a couple of hand blades was mind-blowing to me. The other thing that was really cool in the Guinness factory was, um, after you're done with the tour, you're kinda hanging out. And the people I was hanging out with were drinkers. And so, we're in this big kinda hall, and everybody's sampling stuff. And there's this empty stage. And I'm wondering, "What is this stage for?" And just as we're about to leave, all of the waiters and waitresses put their trays down, jump up on stage, and start river dancing. And I don't mean just, like, half-ass river dancing. I mean, like, hair on the back of your back standing up, goosebump arms, river dancing. It was so cool. So I posted a video of that on, uh, the Patreon page, and, uh, some pictures of the famine walls that I talked about in the last, uh, the last episode. Another thing that was really cool in Ireland was, going to the west coast of it and doing a tour of the Burren, which I talked about briefly, uh, last episode. But one of the … features of the Burren are these underground limestone caves. And, we did a tour of one of 'em. And, it, it was so cool. They discovered, uh, the bones of, uh, was it a bear that was 10,000 years old or something. And there … just these underground, underground streams and stalactites and stalagmites, and I've always had this fantasy, when I'm in a cave, of—and it's not necessarily a fantasy I want to come true, but it's where my head goes—is that society (chuckles) breaks down, and the only safe place is living underground in a cave. And then my mind starts going to work on what would be the way to set up (chuckles) society underground in a cave. I know it's sounds fucking crazy when I say it out loud, but there's something oddly comforting. Maybe cuz it's womb-like; I dunno. Maybe cuz I'm a weirdo. I made the tour lady laugh though, under the, in the cave thing, when I asked her, uh, how many pubs are down here.

[00:04:32] All right, I want to, uh, give a shout out to our sponsor, BetterHelp.com. I love 'em. I've been using them. And she is—my therapist, Donna, which sadly, actually is going to be, uh, leaving, uh, shortly because, and this is a testament to what a sweet person she is. She's going to be going and working with refugees. So, I will be transitioning to a new therapist over there at BetterHelp. But, they have a huge selection of, uh, of therapists. And I'm confident I'll, uh, be able to transition to another one who will be as helpful as Donna has been to me. She's really helping work through my shame and my negative self-talk, and, um … yeah. So, if you want to check out BetterHelp.com, go to betterhelp.com/mental; make sure you include the '/mental' and, uh, fill out a questionnaire. They'll match you up with a BetterHelp.com counselor and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:05:34] All right. This is just a portion of a survey that I wanted to read. This is filled out by a non-binary person who, uh, refers to themself as "Crassula Ovada (sp.)" And in one part of the, uh, survey—this is an excerpt of the shame and secret survey—they said, "I come from a stable and safe family. Why do I feel so fucked up?" And, first of all, I would not categorize, based on what they've filled out in this survey, that it was a safe and stable environment. And I think this, this will explain. This is a, a moment between, um, them and their mother. "I told my mother I was raped. My whole being literally flew out of my body and out of the car when I said the word raped. My mom got angry for me and upset, but then she said, 'I hope that hasn’t put you off men.'"

Intro Music

[00:07:40] Paul: I'm here with Michael Corr, who is a listener. You were originally raised in Northern Ireland.

Michael: Northern Ireland, yeah.

Paul: And you contacted me when you heard I was, uh, coming to, uh, "Arr-land."

Michael: Uh-huh (chuckles).

Paul: Is that the correct, correct way?

Michael: Absolutely perfect, yeah. Your pronunciation is excellent.

Paul: Not like the typical Yank: "Ire-lind."

Michael: (Chuckles)

Paul: And, uh, you connected me with a guy I will be recording later named Jake, who was in the IRA. And, as I was asking you questions about your story, you mentioned that you were raised in a … what's called a mixed marriage, where you grew up with a … one parent was Catholic, the other parent was Protestant.

Michael: Yeah.

Paul: And … I became intrigued as to what that must be like, and what your perspectives on things must be, and the … I think the way I would like to, to start, is by you giving a very brief and broad history of the relationship between Protestants and Catholics, especially in Northern Ireland, but, you know, inclusive of Ireland as a whole, because I think a lot of people, myself included, um, might not understand some of the nittier, grittier … things.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, what a question. I men, that is (chuckles), that is a question. And I'm sure anybody, uh, that would be listening from a kind of, um, background of, of living in Ireland would realize the gravitas—

Paul: Yes.

Michael:—of the question that's just been asked. I mean, if I … I think the best thing to do is to speak from my own personal experience first, uh, and then maybe expand out a little bit—

Paul: Whatever's most comfortable for you.

Michael:--Cuz I guess that's, that's how you begin to understand the kind of nuances, you know, between, um, what can be quite, kind of polarized views, in a way. So I was raised by, um, mother who is, uh, Protestant, still remains Protestant, um, uh, and a, a Catholic father, um, who still remains Catholic. And we were brought up, um, Catholic, because that's, um, I think, you're a Catholic perhaps (unintelligible)—

Paul: You were raised Catholic, yes.

Michael: Yeah. And, as part of some of the rules around that, that the children are to be brought up Catholic within, um, a Catholic (unintelligible) to recognize it. And that was the decision they made a t the time. And, I think … when you grow up in the early days, you're not so aware of, um, the differences, you know, and the importance of some of those differences. I mean, today's the 13th of July, and yesterday is a massive event in the calendar of Northern Ireland. The 12th of July, because it commemorates a battle, um, between two kings: King James and King William, um, Catholic king and a, and a Protestant king.

Paul: Would that be William of Orange?

Michael: William of Orange, the very man. In 1609 and, on that date, uh, the Protestant king defeated the Catholic king. And it's commemorated every year in the north of Ireland by, uh, Protestants. And as children, um—

Paul: And, and, and … King James was … lived where?

Michael: Oh he's, they're both, uh … really , English kings, you know. So, it's not like King James was particularly Irish in any particular way (chuckles).

Paul: Was it the, just about money and power?

Michael: Yeah, and … about religion. I mean, uh, the battle between Catholicism and Protestantism was obviously, um … big, big news—

Paul: And, and, and were the seed of Protestantism, at, at ,at least in England and/or Ireland, was that sown by Henry VIII's division from the Catholic church because they wouldn't grant him a divorce? Is that one of the reason he began pushing for Protestantism?

Michael: Yes, uh, uh, I believe so. I mean … not to be quoted too much on my, uh, knowledge of that period. But, yeah, I, I believe so. I mean, there's also a big battle in France between King, you know, King Louis also and King William, in terms of the battle between Protestantism and Catholicism going on at the same. So, it was happening in different, uh, places. But in those … so this is commemorated by the Orangemen every year. They all dress in, in orange, uh, gear. But, like, what your wearing today yourself, um—

Paul: It never even occurred to me that I'm wearing an orange shirt in Dublin (chuckles).

Michael: In Ireland, yeah (chuckles). And, and they marched the streets, and, uh, it's quite an event, actually, to, to witness the power of that celebration. But as kids, we went along to those events and were oblivious to the reason behind them. And I think it's, sort of respect to my mother and father, that they let us go to those events, and they, they brought us along to them. And, I remember trying to pick out red, white, and blue socks to wear, you know, for the day, which is a British … the colors of Britain, you know, not the colors of, of Ireland. And my parents, quite happily, would have let us, you know, do that. And so, this upbringing between, um, the Catholic and the Protestant wasn’t something that we became aware of, I think, until school age, until you start to wear, you know, particular uniform that identifies you as a Catholic or as, as, as a Protestant. Um—

Paul: So… was your dad okay with you going to these rallies, and being what's called a Loyalist? The Protestants living in Northern Ireland who … who … um, are happy that that section of Ireland was not reunited with free … Ireland?

Michael: I mean, the … that history is, is, is incredibly complex. And my father, um, has probably more knowledgeable about, um, the history of loyalism than most Loyalists would profess, uh, to be or to understand, even though he comes from a Catholic background, because he's, um, primarily, um, interested in understanding, um … how people think and the different cultural backgrounds that people, um, affiliate with and identify with and the reasons, um, behind that. So, he must have been comfortable about bringing us into that situation.

Paul: Do you think he would’ve been if he hadn’t been married to a Protestant woman?

Michael: I think my father's … my father's view in all of that was he fell in love with this woman, um, and it would have been a time where people would have said that that wasn’t the correct thing to do, to marry that Protestant woman. Um—

Paul: Was he raised in a Catholic area?

Michael: He was raised in a Catholic area. A lot of my family on my father's side would some from Falls Road area of, um, West Belfast, which you're going to be, uh, visiting to meet Jake. Predominantly Catholic, predominantly Republican area. And that's where that side of my family comes from. I mean, my great aunt would have carried a bit of, you know, this and that across the border for the IRA back in the days, so that would have how that …

Paul: The word, uh, "Republican," uh, it refers to, um, Irish people whose loyalty lays with the free state of Ireland, and really has mothering to do with, uh, like, the word "Republican" in the United States, where it condones conservatism. In fact, if anything, um, would you say that the Protestants and Loyalists tend to be more conservative than the Catholics or—

Michael: Yes, and the, uh—

Paul:—cuz they were (unintelligible) Republicans.

Michael: Yes, and the term loyalist would be loyal, also, to the crown. So the idea of republicanism would be the opposite of that. You know, that there would be no … um, queen nor king that would be governing in that way. And so that side of the family would’ve seen that as, as, as how things should be.

Paul: So he was raised in Fall, Falls Road. I cut, cut you off cuz I just wanted to .. Along the way, I will be occasionally pausing and kind of … asking questions for my own, uh, edification or to let, uh, listeners kind of understand stuff so they're not confused.

Michael: Yeah, sure. So, he would have been, uh, raised, um, in that area, and that's where that side of the family would have come from. On the opposite side of them, my mother's family, um, comes from an area called County Down in the north of Ireland, um, from a place called Guilford, which is predominantly Protestant. Always would have been very loyal to the Crown. A completely opposite kind of upbringing to what my father would have experienced. And, and they got together, um, in university in Belfast, Queen's University. And, they would have been strongly encouraged not to continue with their relationship.

Paul: You don’t tell kids that.

Michael: No.

Paul: That will, that will make them have kids—

Michael: (Chuckles) Exactly. I mean, he did, he did the exact opposite. And what he says to this day is, no one would have told him, you know, what woman to love, um, you know, either from the Republican side or the loyalist side. And, I think more than anything, I think that's what my father is about. You know, he's about all people and that they should be treated the same. And, and that's how we were brought up. And we were brought up very much, um, in an ambiguous middle ground between those two territories, uh, which … were only pronounced at certain times of the year. So, you could imagine, around this period of time where there's these celebrations happening.

Paul: So, your father adhered to the basic tenets of Christianity (chuckles), which both Catholics and Protestants are—

Michael: Exactly.

Paul:—And yet, it just seems to go out the window, when we don't get our way—

Michael: I mean, they're so closely aligned, these two things. And even within Protestantism, you know, there are … there are many different layers of that. So, I mean, my mother is Church of England, and the teaching of the Church of England or the Church of Ireland, um, are very closely aligned to Catholicism in a way that some other kinds of Protestantism might be further away from Catholicism. So … they're, they're very, they're very close. We're not, we're not necessarily talking about Christianity, yeah, and, and the Muslim faith, for example, you know.

Paul: So, how … What must have been going on, emotionally, in your dad, when an event would happen? For instance, um, the Bloody Friday. Tell, tell the listeners about Bloody Friday, and how Catholics must have felt in that moment. And, what must your dad have felt in that moment?

Michael: Well, my dad, he was heavily involved with civil rights marches, um, in the 60s. And he was reacting to, um, the conditions for Catholics at that time. And for people who don’t know that, that meant for housing, that meant no job opportunities. That meant very little work, um, um, in north—

Paul: In, in, because in Northern Ireland, um, the wealthy people were the Protestants. They did most of the hiring, they were, uh, in most of government. They basically ran it, even though when they began moving there from England, they were the minority. The Catholic was the, the majority.

Michael: Indeed.

Paul: So, in many ways, uh, kind of, almost … is apartheid too, too strong of a, of a word?—

Michael: I don't think apartheid is too strong a word. I mean, the, the kind of industry that many people would know Belfast for would be shipbuilding, you know, through Titanic. I mean, that, that was, uh, what it was famous for. That's where most of the work came for people in Belfast, particularly in East Belfast, which is near the, the docks. And, the majority of those people would have been Protestant that would have been hired, if not all. So Catholics were excluded from that kind of, um, work. And that was endemic and systemic. And, I think when it got to the stage where my father would have been entering his 20s, uh, the kind of age where, um, people, you know, they understand enough and they understand certain means and which they can express their views. The civil rights marches were a response to that, and um … There was also a stage, I guess, where Catholics were beginning to go to, to university. You know, working-class Catholics in, in university—

Paul: How were, how were they achieving that? Just, just scraping by? Their parents saving?

Michael: Absolutely. I mean, my, uh, grandfather, um, would have had no opportunity, um, through lack of money, to go to university. My father recounts the story of him going to interview at Queen's University. The interview was, um, uh, (unintelligible). He got offered a place. But he knew before he went to the interview that he could not take up that place. And so, they would have saved enough in order to make sure my father could go to university. And also, the government were providing some grants at that stage for, for people, um, of working-class, (unintelligible)—

Paul: I, I, I, assume that had been pushed for by Catholics—

Michael: Yeah, relentlessly.

Paul: —at that point. And, and were Catholics the majority then, or had they become a minority in Northern Ireland?

Michael: Still the minority, yeah. And still without voice, and—

Paul: I, I mean, in terms of numbers.

Michael: In numbers, yeah.

Paul: Okay.

Michael: Yeah.

Paul: Because at … when … they began moving in there and being given their land by the English, the Protestants were the minority originally, correct?

Michael: Yeah, yeah. And there were all sorts of constructs that were created to keep that as, as it were. Even when the Catholic population did begin to rise. So, they have a thing called gerrymandering, which is, in terms if voting—

Paul: Oh, we've, we've mastered it.

Michael: You've got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: Yes.

Michael: In terms of voting rights. And so, it would have been, perhaps one house per, you know, one vote per house rather than one vote per person. So, in certain areas, where there were maybe more Catholics living in houses due to, um, poverty, then they would not have been counted a vote each. And that kept the system, more or less, how it was, you know.

Paul: So it worked against your Republicans, and it works for our Republicans (chuckles).

Michael: Yes, it does (chuckles). It does. It works well for your Republicans. A very different breed of Republican, yeah. And so, I think, I think at that stage, uh, what he wanted to do was to go out there and change that system and … and, and the cards were stacked against the Catholics. And, I think, were the cards to be stacked against the Protestants, I'm sure my father would have had a similar response, actually. You know, it's injustice.

Paul: Sounds like a really, beautiful, sensitive soul.

Michael: Yeah, sensitive in, uh, in some ways.—

Paul: We'll find out what a dick he was a little later in the interview.

Michael: (Laughs) I mean, he was, he was incredibly angry about the situation, as you would be. You know, and, and that anger has stayed with him his entire life. I mean, he is as angry now about, uh … the injustices in Northern Ireland, which are still there, um, against the Catholic community. You know, it hasn't all changed, you know. Big leaps have been made, but, um, there's still growing to go. So that anger remains.

Paul: So … When the civil rights moment in Northern Ireland was happening, was … did that influence the … United States civil right movement, or was that influenced by the, uh … vice versa?

Michael: Yeah, I mean that's—

Paul: Or, did they both just happen to same, happen at the same time? Cuz it seems like, in the 60s, there was a lot of revolution, cultural revolutions, especially economic.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I don't know any, any specific facts, you know, in terms of linking the two. But, I think anyone can see that, at that particular time, there was, um, I mean culturally, in terms of music, in terms or writing, um … There was a surge of something going on, uh, to fight injustice of various kinds. And I know … the Catholics in the north, they, you know, had, had links with different groups all over the world, you know. So when, you know, groups in South America, the, the IRA had potential links there. They had links with movements in Spain that were going on at the same time, you know. So the—I guess there was, there was a surge of activism that was going on at that particular time, which is a little absent these days, you know. It's not, it's not, people don't take to the streets in the way that they perhaps did during that period. And I'm sure they got a little bit of support of each other.

Paul: What they do if it's a flash mob today, that's, people will get together for that, but that's about it.

Michael: Exactly, Yeah, and it goes on YouTube and gets a few hit.

Paul: If they can find a Pokeman character, they'll, they'll get out of the house.

Michael: Yeah (chuckles).

Paul: So, what, what are some memories that you have when it began to be on your radar that there was this deep, deep divide in your community?

Michael: I mean, where, where I grew up was … It wasn't middle class, but it was … I mean, we were probably the, the poorest people with the middle class group, I would say. Aspiring middle class. And what was noticeable to me is whenever I opened my front door, in this kind of reasonably middle-class neighborhood, was a big flag, um, you know, at the end of my driveway. And … at certain times of the year, that flag would then be multiplied everywhere. And the pavements themselves would be painted red, white, and blue, um … You know, the side walk, the curbs would all be painted red, white, and blue. And it became … obvious to me, that this was a very public expression of, um, nationalism going on that, um, made me feel uncomfortable even at those early ages. When I would walk to school with my tie, which was from a Catholic, uh, school, with fleur de lis and all the rest of it on it. When we would approach the Protestant children with a different tie, daily, every single day, there would be a scrap or a fight or something going on between us, as we would pass each other. Kicking, spitting, um, (unintelligible) kind of thing. And this was just every single day. And, it became obviously very clear then, what, what's going on with this, you know. I'm being identified as different to them because of their religion. And yet, in my home, I have both a Protestant and a Catholic, uh, parent.

Paul: Were you always out, outnumbered?

Michael: We were outnumbered on the very few occasions, you know. So … you know, friends of mine get kicked unconscious, and not, people not being able to do very much about it. I was brought up in quite a Protestant town as well, so …

Paul: You were brought up in what?

Michael: Quite a Protestant town.

Paul: Oh, town.

Michael: Town, Yeah, sorry. Yeah, uh, in Northern Ireland, so (unintelligible) been a Protestant majority in that, that town.

Paul: How did your parents react to that lack of physical safety on your part? Did your mother, uh, ever say to your (chuckles) father, "Could we maybe raise him Protestant so he doesn’t get kicked unconscious?"

Michael: Um-hum (chuckles). Um—

Paul: Did YOU ever think that?

Michael: (Laughs) No, I didn't, I didn’t think that. And, I mean, my sister actually went to a Protestant school. And—

Paul: By her choice?

Michael: By my parents' choice. Yeah, they thought that was the best school for her to go to. Which was quite a bold move, um, really. But, but no, they didn’t. That was just the way, way it was. And, you shouldn’t shelter your, your children from all of these situations. I mean, e-, … even if you were a Protestant in that situation and someone found out that your father was a Catholic, that would still be an issue. You know, you can't erase all of these things. And they did an interesting thing, my parents, as well. It's a bit like that, you know, Johnny Cash Boy Named Sue thing. My middle name is William, which is from this Protestant king, um, who beat the Catholics. And William is a …

Paul: Des-, despised name in the, in the Catholic community.

Michael: (Laughs) I mean, yes, this is something that you do not do. And you, and I certainly didn’t announce it at any time. And occasionally at school, that would come up, as people use your full name.

Paul: It would be like naming a Jewish kid Adolf.

Michael: Yeah (chuckles). Good luck, good luck with that, son. Stay out of trouble, now! So, I mean, they, they were … yeah. I mean, this is just the way it was. And we were a mix of those things. It couldn’t be hidden.

Paul: But you don’t recall any instances where that issue was addressed. What it just, was it a bit of an elephant in the room, the fact that you were a fish out of water in your own town, where there was physical danger for you being raised Catholic? Or was it just, um … kind of normal?

Michael: I think it was just completely normal. I mean, I think living in the north of Ireland, and by my parents making the choice to live there, they would have realized that that, that was the situation. And, I guess they would have had a choice to move us completely out of Northern Ireland, um, to the south of Ireland where there would have been, uh, predominantly Catholic. But maybe they took the decision, why should they?

Paul: And by that, you mean the free state of Ireland.

Michael: Yes. Yes, um, which Dublin is the capital of. But yeah, why should they? You know, and why should we hide the fact that, that we were Catholic, you know? And …

Paul: Yeah, who knows? The kids might not die. We might be overreacting.

Michael: (Laughs) Indeed. The kid … it, it could happen, you know. It might not. Yeah.

Paul: So, let's take an event like Bloody Friday, which happened in the … late 60s, early 70s?

Michael: Yeah—

Paul: When did that happen?

Michael: Late, late 60s, yeah. I don't know the exact date.

Paul: De-, describe that situation for, uh … the, the listeners. Because I want to try to get an understanding of what—And you would have been alive then, correct or no?

Michael: Not quite, no. Seventy-five, I was born.

Paul: Sorry about that. I just aged you. Just to make me feel better. I just wanted to know.

Michael: (Laughs) It's just the, I hope it's just the beard. I can … shave it off.

Paul: Describe that situation, in how your father might have felt, uh … during that—because that event seems, to me, to, uh … be kind of a hyper-version of the, the conflict.

Michael: Hmm. I mean, there were—

Paul: Unless there's a better one that you can, that you can think of.

Michael: Yeah, I mean there were a number, I mean … with the word "bloody" proceeding it.

Paul: Is there a day of the week that doesn’t have "bloody" before it?

Michael: (Laughs) We take Mondays off, you know, just to … Monday's the day for chilling out, you know?

Paul: And then Bob Geldolf had to write a song, uh, "I Don't Like Mondays," about someone shooting up the school.

Michael: Yeah. Bloody Bob Geldolf. He's responsible for so much.

Paul: He's Irish, correct?

Michael: He is, yeah, yeah. He's got, he had the keys to the city, here in Dublin, and I think he gave it back recently. But, that's another story. But, in terms of these events, um, Bloody Friday, you mentioned Bloody Sunday, um, uh, in Croke Park. And then the north of Ireland, also, uh, Bloody Sunday. These, uh, were events that were, uh, Catholics were gunned down, uh, mercilessly, and the defense is that there may have been, um, some (unintelligible) terrorists involved. But actually, it was just a lot of innocent people who were just shot down, um, ruthlessly, um … on those occasions. And, I mean, I can't … I don’t know how my father would have felt at that particular time. I imagine, um, angry, helpless, um, revengeful. And, I think, you know, what I can comment on is that, you know, I witness, when there was a bombing called the Omagh bombing, which happened in, uh, the north of Ireland, quite close to (unintelligible) where you're from originally, um … You know, I sat beside my father when that bomb happened. And, it'd been shown on, on the TV. And I just watched them … he wept, you know. And I'd never seem my, uh, father cry before, and he just cried his eyes out.

Paul: And how old were you?

Michael: I think I must have been around 10 … around that kind of age. Eight to 10, um … And, I think that that, that kind of stayed … You know, that was later in the … in, in the conflict. And, um, at that (unintelligible) stage, it must have just been helplessness. You know, the feeling that these kinds of tragedies were still going on. And, and that, that, that weeping is on both sides, you know. I think it's not just on the Catholic side. That is, that is on the Protestant side, too. And I think that—when I heard your, your podcast, and you're talking about, um, the issues in Ireland and, um, I can understand the views around, um, the idea of, uh, uh the colonizer and, um … and all of that. But, in no way, would I want to present a picture that it's completely one-sided, you know. Sure, there was, um, an aggressor, um … And, and there was a fight that the Catholics did need to make in order to defend themselves. But there was a lot of harm that was done on both sides over that period that they call "The Troubles", from the 60s, 70s, um, on, on both sides. And a lot of horror, and, um, a, a lot of unnecessary blood spilt.

Paul: In … when I, you know, talk about that oppression, the taking of land by, uh, the Protestants coming from, from, England, taking Irish land, and … I am not judging, as if the country I live in hasn't done that a thousand times. I mean, I vacationed in Hawaii, which is the ultimate example of us taking something and robbing a culture and deposing the people that … were ruling there, etc., etc. So, I don't, I don’t want to come across as somebody who, uh, sounds like they would never have anything to do with injustices going on.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. And, and for me, being in, being in the situation where I would spend, um, you know, birthdays, Christmases, events with both sides of the family, you begin to understand the kinds of, uh … the significance, cultural significance that people attach to, um, certain, um, events or, um, marches or music or whatever it may be. And, it's certainly not for me to judge that as kind of right or wrong. Or that one this is more Irish than the other. But, if, if those kinds of expressions of culture, culture start to expand into areas that, um, uh, create injustice for other people, such as the marches I talked about on the 12th of July, walking down certain streets where the majority of the community do not wish that to happen, um, at certain times of the day, then that, to me, becomes a step too far in terms of cultural expression.

Paul: Yeah, there's a difference between pride and provoking.

Michael: Absolutely.

Paul: Like when, uh, in Israel, when Ariel Sharon visited, uh, the Temple Mount, which is one of the most sacred sites in the, Islam. Yes, technically he had the right to go there. But, it was such a provocation and it started another intifada. And so, the question really becomes is, what, what is your, what is your purpose? What are you, what are you trying to, trying to do? Any recollections of your extended, extended family getting together? Your Protestant mother's side and your Catholic father's side?

Michael: Yes. I mean, I, I know, from what my parents have told me, that my grandfathers on both sides were dead against, uh, the marriage in the first place. And that over time, that did soften. And—

Paul: Would they then lightly stab each other at family events?

Michael: (Laughs) Yes, over, yeah, a glass of Guinness or something like that.

Paul: Everybody can get together over—

Michael: Exactly. Yeah, everyone can get drunk together. That's one thing that definitely binds, um, uh, the Irish people together. Yeah, and not, I mean there … my mother and father would, would, would spend time with both sides of the family. But, there hasn't been a, a kind of a connection between my father's side of the family and my mother's side of the family. I guess, although then when they were married—

Paul: Okay! That makes sense.

Michael: Yeah. They were fairly present, I think, for that, that occasion. But, no, that's the, those two sides, uh, remain quite separate. I guess my mother and father are the, uh … they're the in-between, um, both sides of the family, as are we.

Paul: Do you have any recollections of either parent making a stand on something that involved supporting, not supporting something, speaking out against something, not speaking out against something?

Michael: Yeah, and interestingly—I think this is, this is a good one to mention, because it does also speak of, um … my father's position, but also, uh, what I would say was my position currently. And, and that comes from, uh, a moment when we were all going to chapel, or, or, or the Catholic church. And outside, there was, uh, a stall that was set up by a politician called John Hume. And John Hume's quite a famous, um, Norther Irish politician on the Catholic side, um, who brokered the Good Friday, um, uh, peace agreement in Northern Ireland and was part of that, uh, brokerage—

Paul: This is in, in, mid-90s?

Michael: Yes, indeed. Yeah, where Bill Clinton came over and everything and celebrate that with us—

Paul: In between fucking interns—

Michael: (Laughs) He took a, he took a weekend off for that.—

Paul: —and selling away the American economy.

Michael: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah, you think he'd been busy enough. But, yeah. And so, he (chuckles), so John Hume was, uh, involved in that with another Protestant politician called David Trimble. But anyway, John Hume had his stall outside our church. My father went over to him—which would not have been an easy thing to do at the time—and he asked him politely to remove himself, um, from the church. And, the reason he did that is because he does not see that religion needs to be collected to politics in the way that it has been intertwined in, in Irish history. He sees, when he goes to worship, wherever he may worship, that is his god and his conversation with his god, and that nobody should be connecting that with, um, a particular political party. And so, he made a strong stand at that stage, which would have been frowned on by many Catholics, I would say. You know, I think John Hume shouted at him that he was a bigot, when he was completely the opposite—

Paul: Did John Hume know that your father was, uh, Catholic? Why would he, why would the call him a bigot?

Michael: Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and … and, and that kind of stand says a lot, to me. And that's how I think about, uh, politics and religion currently. That, you know, the two things do not need to be connected in that way.—

Paul: It seems like the sensible choice. I mean, while both conceivably involve ethics and morality, it, it seems like there are different, uh, times and venues to express those, those morals or ethics.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. And the ongoing problems that we have in the north of Ireland, um, in terms of the political situation are still firmly rooted in religious divide, you know. So it's, it's not helpful.

Paul: Did you ever get to watch your dad watch … Ian Paisley?

Michael: Ian Paisley was from my town.

Paul: Was he really?

Michael: He was, yeah. So he was our politician. He was our—

Paul: Oh my god!

Michael: —um, MP. And fire and fury was his, uh, modus operandi.

Paul: One of the most transparent megalomaniacs I had ever seen—I don't know a tremendous amount about him, other than his speeches, which just seem like they were all about him grandstanding, and not really caring what kind of wreckage he incited in his rhetoric.

Michael: I mean, he must have learned something from the kind of pastors, I guess, you know, that we would see in the, in the US, you know. Because he could, he could use language to stir up a crowd like, like nobody's business. And, what my father would have said about it is that, you would have heard, um, Paisley stirring up the anger of the crowd, you know, about how the Catholics were gonna, um, dominate and take everything, um, and then let them out the door. And then say, "It's nothing, it's nothing to do with me. I didn't cause any of this business." I'm a religious man, but, he certainly stoked the, the fire and the flames. But, interestingly, in his later life, um, he, um, together with what would have been, um, uh, the deputy prime minister, let's say, uh, in the north of Ireland, former IRA member Martin McGuinness. They worked quite closely together in a, in a very productive way. So even Ian Paisley could—

Paul: Wow.

Michael: —soften, um, in, in his later, later days. And there were certainly, um, less helpful people that came along after Ian Paisley in his wake.

Paul: For, for instance?

Michael: In terms of, uh, politicians?

Paul: Yeah.

Michael: I mean, you just have to look at the current, uh, Democratic Unionist Party, um , and, uh, that, that's headed by Arlene Foster, and there's a complete impasse in Northern Ireland at the moment. There's a standoff in our, uh, government. Nobody is taking their seats. No one has taken their seat for the last year, and there's no conversation happening, um, between Sinn Féin, which is the main, uh, political party in, uh, the north, in terms of the Catholic community, and, uh, the DUP, which would be the Protestant community. So, at that stage, Ian Paisley was at least in discussion with Martin McGuinness and sitting together –

Paul: And what is the issue over the standoff? Or there's too many?

Michael: No, I mean it's … You could come up with various reasons for it, and they have said there are reasons for it. One thing that you will talk to Jake about, no doubt, is the Irish language. And the DUP are refusing to have an Irish language act, uh, which, uh, has happened in other parts of the UK, so in Wales or in Scotland. And they refuse to, um, uh, accept the Irish language. And so, this is the standoff—

Paul: On, on signs, or—

Michael: Yes, on signs, um, and that there's parity. They would not accept parity between those things. And so, the standoff is, is around that. Sinn Féin are insisting there should be, the DUP are saying come hell or high water, that's not happening. And so, they haven't been discussing the last year or so, and that is just going on.

Paul: Is there a tense fear that, uh, violence is gonna break out again?

Michael: I think that there is very little appetite in the north of Ireland for the return to that kind of violence. I think everyone who had a taste of it, is sick to death of that taste. And, so I would, I would …. I would bet against it, um, I would hope not. But I don’t think it's ever an impossibility that that could reignite itself, um, and it only takes a number of different things, I think, to happen at once, for that to happen. The Brexit conversation is also not helpful, I don’t think, in terms of discussions around border and …

Paul: Because the free state of Ireland is still in the EU. The Northern Ireland, which is a part of—and I'm obviously talking to the listener—and Northern Ireland, which is a part of, um, the UK, is planning on leaving the European Union. And, um … If someone is from Northern Ireland, do they call themselves Northern Irish? What do, how do they refer themselves?

Michael: I, I think there are, there are three ways, at least, that the people would refer to themselves. Some people would just simply say Irish; they see it as one Ireland. Others will say Northern Irish; on occasions, I have said Northern Irish. I would say more often than not, I say Northern Irish—

Paul: That what you call yourself.

Michael: —out of default, yeah. I know some that will say British, um, who won't register the Northern Irish, um, aspect of it at all. But, it's very interesting being in Dublin, and, and having this conversation because culturally, I see big differences between myself and a person from the south of Ireland. Me being from the north of Ireland, them being from the south of Ireland. And, that is sad, I think, in, in some ways, um, and that's been a result of this division, the border division and, um, and then a cultural division that has happened—

Paul: Can you be more specific?

Michael: Well, I think, in terms of recent history, uh—and this is arguments I've had with friends in , in the south of Ireland—in many ways they were quite separated from the kind of violence that people would have experienced in the north of Ireland and the kind of resistance, in recent history at least, um, in terms of, um, having to defend their right for jobs and opportunities. That would have been quite different in, in the south of Ireland. And … as a result, people would say, people from the south of Ireland might say people from the north of Ireland tend to be a bit angry, um, you know, and, uh, a bit standoffish, perhaps, on first approach. And I think that is a consequence of living in a conflict situation. It is a consequence of going to your local shop and not knowing whether someone would vote against your right to, um, exist or express your cultural views, um, and then happily serve you some bread. So there's a suspicion, I think, of people in the north, also. And, and maybe that's slightly different in, in the south of Ireland, because they have been slightly removed by that. I mean, the south of Ireland feels much more European in a way, I feel, Dublin particularly than what you will experience in Belfast, which feels like almost like a northern … English town in a way at time. You know, it feels—

Paul: Is there an edge to it that you don't find in—

Michael: There's an edge.

Paul: Okay.

Michael: There's definitely an edge that you will you will experience. And, and, and that is, that's just the way it is. Yeah.

Paul: Well, what a great segue then into how … this divide and this tension … has affected you personally.

Michael: Hmm. And I have thought of that, about that a lot. I mean, I'm currently doing, um, a PhD. I'm an architect. That's, that's my, um, profession. But over the years, I haven’t necessarily been involved with lots of building projects; that's not my main interest. You know, I've worked for the mayor of London, and Boris Johnson is part of a design team there. Here, I've run the architecture center in Northern Ireland, and these kinds of things, and they are about generating projects that, uh, bring people together in one form, form or another. So, in public spaces—

Paul: Boris Johnson was a part of that?!

Michael: He … (chuckles). It was actually established under Ken Livingston, the previous mayor. So Boris kind of rolled the system out, and maybe took a, a bit of kudos for it, whether he was responsible for it, the, the system or not. Yeah, BoJo. And so, my work, uh, is, is, is involved with that. And I have traced it back to, uh, this relationship, I think, with my, my parents, you know, that I am seeking the middle ground, um in many situations. And, I think, that, that moves over into black or white thinking also. You know, I see … the myriad of grays, um, in different situations, and I try to occupy that territory. And I try my best to live that way, as well, and to think that way, if, if I can, rather than being drawn into one or the other. And I think that comes very much from the upbringing of my parents, of, of living that way day to day, because it must, you must absorb it. And …

Paul: Was there visible tension between your parents around issues, other than just being parents? In other words, informed by "The Troubles" and the deep divide?

Michael: They were actually quite aligned on, on those subjects, because they're both very well read. And, um, my mother understood the privileges that she had, being brought up as, as a Protestant. She understood it very well. And, um, and as I say, my father also understood that, you know, uh, it's not the, the, the Catholic form of culture, the Republican form of culture is the only one that existed, you know. So I think they found a quite healthy middle ground in, in those particular areas, yeah.

Paul: Do you find it difficult, or do you find yourself on edge sometimes, when you are around people that are tense around each other? Or, or do you thrive in that—

Michael: I'm, I'm drawn to those areas, you know. So you mentioned the Middle East, for example. I mean, I, I, I spent three or four months working in the Middle East, um, uh, in Jerusalem. And—

Paul: Is, is, is there conflict there?

Michael: There's a, there's a little bit, yeah. And every now and again, you know—

Paul: It's probably just recent, though. Probably very brief.

Michael: (Chuckles) It is, yeah. I think it, it probably post-dates anything that's been happening in Ireland. Yeah, they're got an issue or two with each other. But, yeah, I went there because I'm interested in, in being ion those vocations. And I was interested in working right on the border, um, in terms of creating a, a master plan that somehow was for Palestinian and Israeli, uh, settlement, not one or the other. And, most recently, I've been working in Eastern Estonia, which is on the border between the EU and Russia, um, in an area called Narva, and that is a high point of tension. That's where the US have sent quite a lot of troops, and, um, NATO, um, for, uh, obvious reasons. And so, I'm drawn to these areas of tension.

Paul: And, and so, in being drawn to that area, what goes through your mind, as you are considering your craft as an architect? How, how does that translate into a physical environment or a design?

Michael: Well, in terms of, uh, the Estonian example, what you see, you're right on that border, is, um, a lot of investment from the EU and from Estonia to reinforce the, uh, perception of, um, an advanced, open, uh, uh economy. And that is represented in new buildings, new pavements, lookout areas that can look out to the Russian side and see, um, uh, poorer conditions. And I, I, I am drawn actually to what's happening below the surface, you know. So what you witness in those areas in actually quite a, a, a, strong existing Russian population, um, with their own cultures that are happening in that place, um, regardless of this fascination with, uh, the European Union. And I am interested in discovering those aspects of culture and the ones of, of the European Union, of course, and trying to mix those different cultures up in a, in an honest way, rather than ignoring one in relation to the other. Because I think ignoring the Russian culture in that particular area can only result in further aggression, um, rather than an recognition of how, how people are living, um, and somehow reach the middle ground between the two of them?

Paul: What issues do you struggle with?

Michael: Personally? Or—

Paul: Yeah, yeah. Or have you struggled with? I mean, what, what drew you to be a listener to the podcast?

Michael: I mean, I had a, a, a bit of a meltdown, I would say, about, about a year and a half ago. And I think my way of … through alcohol, I'd say. And, I think my way of, uh, behaving, was very much black or white all the time, you know, one or, one or the other, um, in my personal life. And, um, I just reached a point where, you know, I couldn't have felt any lower, to be honest. And, I just started walking away from that situation. Physically walking, and walking for miles and miles and miles. And at the end of that walk, making a decision that I don't want to be in that position any longer. And I don’t want to hide from myself any longer. And a very good friend of mine, Charlotte, um, who I speak to about, about my feelings and have done, uh, she recommended your show. And, uh, and I started to listen to the show and … I mean, I found it like weekly therapy listening to the show, yeah.

Paul: I, I, as much as I appreciate your comments, I was, I was more interested in what, what—and thank you, by the way. I'm, I'm more interested in what was it that, what, how was the black and white thinking presenting itself. And what were the struggles underneath the black and white thinking. You mentioned alcohol. Has it resolved itself? Was there any type of clarity on past or present thinking or events?

Michael: I mean, I have, I've undertaken therapy in, in the past, um, CBT-type therapy.

Paul: Did it help?

Michael: It did help. I mean, I think it was useful for me, also, because of the type of person I am, you know. I think it's, it's, it felt to me like quite a goal-driven type of therapy you could, you know, have certain, um, systems that you would use, and, and dealt with—

Paul: Very practical.

Michael: Very practical, yeah—

Paul: Very hands on.

Michael: Yeah. And, and I think, post the, the, the meltdown, I, I sort of sought something else, you know. I am … had a kind of hypnotherapy, also, which was going back to childhood, um, uh, feelings and, and, and moments. And … I think it was more about confronting, trying to confront the roots of, of some of those issues and, and (unintelligible) up to them, and—

Paul: Any that you'd like to share, or feel comfortable sharing?

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I … In terms of my, my upbringing, you know, I … and it could be partly related to … the way it was in Northern Ireland at that time, but, um, it was a very tense family upbringing, I think especially on my father's, uh, side, you know, was probably going through a, kind of a difficult time, and, uh … It was on, it was on red most of the time, I would say, within the house, you know. A kind of a certain level of, of, of anger that was there, and—

Paul: Mostly on your father's side?

Michael: I'd say mostly, not, not predominantly. Sometimes, on my mom's side. But I'd say mostly on my, my dad's side. He's MUCH mellower now. But, yeah. So I guess, growing up in the kind of tense environment, um, I've sort of realized that, you know … you know, there are certain ways of dealing with, um, anxious situations, and maybe alcohol was that way that I was dealing with those things rather than, um, trying to work through them and, and—

Paul: Try to numb them out instead of talk about them.

Michael: Yeah, exactly.

Paul: And is, is alcohol still a problem?

Michael: I wouldn’t say—I mean, I haven’t had a drink since that day. And I think the need to has, has really, um, decreased a lot. And, you know, I don't think I would have, you know, even sent you an email, um, had I still been drinking in a way. You know, I think I would have been too, you know, too nervous even about having a, having an open conversation. Whereas, now I'm much happier about, you know, presenting myself. This is me. You know, before I was coming here, I was like, "I don't have anything interesting to say, actually, to Paul," you know?

Paul: That's funny, I couldn't wait to interview you. That's so funny.

Michael: I was just full of self-doubt, you know, when I, when I was thinking about it. But then I was thinking, "Well, all I can do is say, you know, what I say." And, I think I would not have been in that position a year and a, a year and a half ago, you know.

Paul: Wow, that's amazing.

Michael: That's progress, I think.

Paul: Well, Michael, thank you. I know you have a fl-, a flight to catch. But I just wanna thank you for, not only a greet conversation, but for putting me in touch with Jake and, um, being a listener and being supportive and, and reaching out, and, um … yeah, means a lot to me.

Michael: Well, it means a lot to me, too, you know. I want give you any further compliments, but, uh, I mean it's, a, it's—

Paul: No, I'm ready now!

Michael: (Laughs) Well, it's been bloody wonderful. Thank you very much indeed.

Paul: (Says something in Gaelic)

Michael: Yeah, (says something in Gaelic) indeed.

End of Interview

[01:03:59] I had to break out my (chuckles), my half-asses Gaelic at, at some point. What a, what a sweet man. I really enjoyed meeting him and talking to him. Before I take it out with some surveys, I want to give some love to our sponsor, Away. Away offers high-quality luggage that is designed to be resilient, resourceful, and essential to the way you travel. It’s available in a big variety of colors, uh, they have four different sizes, including a carry-on size. And they're compliant with all major US airlines. They're suitcases, they're lightweight, uh, they're made with, uh, premium German polycarbonate. It's unrivaled in strength and impact-resistance. And, uh, what I really like: TSA-approved combination lock, four 360-degree spinner wheels, and a patent-pending compression system to help over packers like me. And, the cherry on top of it all, is there is a rechargeable battery that fits into a slot in it. So, if your phone gets drained, or your laptop gets drained, just plug it into this thing, and … it's, it's awesome, and I can’t wait to use it. Try, uh, try out Away for 100 days. Travel around with it, Instagram it, and if at any point you decide it's not for you, you can return it for a full refund. Shipping in free within the lower 48 states. And, thanks to Away's lifetime warranty, if anything breaks, they'll fix it, so you’ve got nothing to lose. So, for 20 bucks off a suitcate … suitcate (chuckles)? Yes, Cate is in a suit (chuckles). For $20 off a suitcase, visit awaytravel.com/mental, and use the promo code 'mental' during checkout. That's awaytravel.com/mental, and promo code 'mental' for your 20 bucks off your Away suitcase. And I'll put the links to this in the, uh, uh, show notes of this episode. And, uh, it, seriously, is a really cool suitcase.

[01:06:07] Let's get to some surveys. This is just a portion of a shame and secret survey. This is filled out by, uh, uh, a teenager who calls herself "Aria." And she writes, darkest thoughts: "I often just wonder whether or not I have depression or seasonal depression and want to talk to a therapist about my feelings, but feel like I don’t deserve it. I basically fear that I'm making it up I my head and telling myself I feel this way. There are so many other people who have it so much worse, that I feel like I'm not valid in my feelings." First of all, anybody who feels that they don’t deserve to go to therapy, deserves to go to therapy. Second of all, people who don’t feel their feelings are valid are usually people that could really benefit from therapy, because that is one of the biggest things that therapy can help with, is … understanding what it is you're feeling and finding a healthy way to express it. And, um … yes, everything that you described right here is how so many of the rest of us felt before we went to therapy. And, um, give it a, give it a shot, you know. Don’t, don’t try to be the clinician and the patient at the same time. It's like trying to give yourself a haircut, you know? Just … find a therapist or some support group and go there and open up, and you'd be amazed how much it can change our lives.

[01:07:47] This is, uh, from the babysitter survey, and this was filled out by a woman who calls herself, uh, "Calliope." And, she is, uh, identifies as bisexual. She's in her 40s, um, and her experience, uh, she was babysat. And, she writes, "My babysitter molested me. I knew it was wrong, as far as societal norms were concerned, but she was the best grown-up in my life. I was safer with her than anywhere, so I just went with it. I never told anyone. The insane shit that regularly occurred in my family … fuck! No one would have paid attention in any way that would have mattered, it has affected in ways that I continue to discover to this day. I am 47 years old. I love sex and have little shame about my body, and I thought that those facts meant that I was free of damage. I realize that I am easily manipulated and used, especially in romantic and sexual situations. I have been raped a number of times in my life. This last time had me really examining every 'uncomfortable' sexual encounter. I am now able to acknowledge to myself that in numerous 'rapey' circumstances, I—" By the way, terrible name for a band. "—I made the choice to fuck the hell out of my rapist and blow their mind, and ghost them in order to gain some sense of sick control." Remembering these things, what feelings come up? "I am sobbing right now. I just feel so fucking much." It, it, while I am so sorry that you are feeling this, it is so good that you are feeling this instead of shoving it down and slapping that mask on … cuz that's no way to live. It is no way to live. And I'm so sorry this stuff happened to you, and that you didn't have a family that you could go to, and that this was, this was the best option for intimacy for you, was a babysitter that took you innocence, because that was the only place you felt that you could feel seen. Do you feel any damage was done? "I don’t know how to answer this question. My babysitter was so good to me in every other way, and was a respite from my shitty, brutal, neglectful family. She never hurt me physically. I felt uncomfortable with the sexual interactions, but also felt pleasure. I don't think her intent was harmful, necessarily, but she knew it was wrong. This is how I know: She moved away when I was nine. I ran into her at a ren fair when I was 16." I assume that means renaissance fair. "I was with my dad. I was really happy to see her. I loved her. She was markedly uncomfortable and cold to me. Up until that point, I had known that the sexual interaction with her was not acceptable, but it wasn’t until that moment that I felt fully ashamed." If you are a parent, has your experience or experiences influenced how you view your children being babysat? "My mom was a wild, drinking, tripping, free-love hippie. She pawned me off on whichever neighbor was willing and happy to keep me for days at a time while she partied. I married this stodgy, upright German from the Alps. He always wanted to do everything as a family. On a rare occasion that we went anywhere without the kids, we knew plenty of earnest, young people to watch them. I do know that I didn’t leave my kids with people until they were old enough to converse with me." And that's the end of, uh, of the survey. Thank you for, for filling that out and, um … One of the reasons that I wanted to read is it highlights that complex relationship we can have with a person that abused us, that there can be … sometimes a feeling of safety with that person. But … true, unconditional love, you don’t pay a price for somebody's love, cuz that's not love. That’s usually some type of gaslighting or conditional love or grooming. And I don’t know how conscious it is on the part of the person that's doing that, but, I dunno. Just my two cents.

[01:12:20] This is a happy moment filled out by "Ike." As to the question, what sex or gender are you, Ike writes, "I am a meat popsicle." Gonna assume that mean, uh, means that Ike has a swinging dick. Although maybe it's a tiny popsicle. Maybe it's chilly (chuckles). Ike write—and I wonder if this is the Ike that, uh, emails me every once in a while. There's an Ike that emails me and, and shares how much he enjoys the episodes. Very sweet man. He writes, "Today, I was in the license bureau, waiting to get my license renewed, and I witnessed a very upbeat, little old lady just going through the process with the best possible attitude. It made me smile, hearing her talk to the lady behind the desk. Picture a petite older lady dressed somewhat conservatively, with her white hair in a beehive style. When her number got called, she jumped up and said, 'Oh, boy! It's my turn!' The lady behind the desk had to ask her what her social security is and what trying to be …" I think there's a typo there. Goddamn you, Ike! "… and was—" Oh, WAS trying to be, "—quiet or discreet about it. But Mrs. Sunshine couldn't hear her, so she had to keep repeating the question louder and louder. Mrs. Sunshine gladly examined her social (Paul makes correction), exclaimed her social in front of everyone, and was more than happy to say that she's 5'5" and 110 pounds. Down 20 since last time; the secret is eating a light supper! She really struggled to read the tiny letters on the vision test, and had to use her glasses on the left set of letters. When she had to recognize road signs, the lady behind the desk had to rephrase a few questions with helpful hints as to what road signs were what. Mrs. Sunshine said that that sign means don't go that way, when she was supposed to say do not enter. But she got through the whole thing in high spirits, despite having to repeat herself or rephrase her answers multiple times. At the end, she had to sign her name and the lady asked, 'Left- or right-handed?' And she replied, 'Oh, I'm right-handed, but my husband was left-handed. He would have had a tough time signing on this tablet.' When she was asked if she still wanted to be an organ donor, she said, 'Oh sure. I'm sure my organs are pretty used up by now. But they can have whatever they need.' Here is a lady who lost her husband, in one of the least fun places on earth, having to struggle with failing vision and correct phrasing, and yet, and YET, happy as can be about it. It made my day." Thank you, Ike. Any comments to make the podcast better? "I want to hear about Herbert's ghost butthole." It is just a shimmering, little halo of a ghost butthole, and it does walk the halls of my house at night. Some would say haunts? But that's a strong word. It does have that 50s, B-movie sci-fi kind of (makes high-pitched, spooky sound) noise that goes with it. But it's so adorable. And it hasn’t lost any of its pink (chuckles). For people that don’t know who Herbert was, I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna let you guess! He was my dog. Loved Herbert.

[01:15:50] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by—oh, and sometimes, in the middle of the night, I think when he's mad at me, Herbert's ghost butthole with rattle pans in the kitchen. (Laughs) That was so not worth stopping and adding. This was filled out by a woman who calls herself "Eating My Feelings." Boy, I can't relate to that (chuckles) … he said, packing as much sarcasm as he could. She identifies as pansexual, is in her 30s, was raised in a totally chaotic environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse, um … yes, and she never reported it. "My mother was concerned when I developed breasts early, uh, eight years old. I was taken to my doctor and a few specialists to see why I was developing so early. Turned out I was just an early bloomer, but from then on, when my mother was not present for my doctor appointments, breast and vaginal exams continued to occur, even though they were not necessary. When I was 10, my doctor left the practice to become a circus clown." I did not read that incorrectly. (Pauses) Her doctor, her pedophile doctor … left to become a circus clown. In case clowns couldn’t get any creepier. She has also been physically and emotionally abused. "My mother had a raging (Paul makes correction), has a case of raging narcissistic personality disorder, and I'll also include Munchausen. My sister and I were led to believe we were dying of cancer. Being molested by relatives, going blind and so on. I was personally attacked for the way I looked, specifically my weight. I was put on diets and supplements as early as 10. She was always gaslighting us, making us feel like we were in the wrong and that we were the crazy one." She can't think of any positive experiences with the people who abused her. Darkest thoughts: "I think about killing myself most days. My first suicide attempt was at six years old, when I drank cleaning solution I found under the sink." (Pauses) That is … wow! "I've written endless suicide letters and have had multiple plans. Ultimately, as an adult, I was never able to carry out my plan, because I couldn’t imagine what kind of emotional trauma finding a dead body would do to someone. It's gotten lot better, thanks to therapy and meds. I'm now a mother myself, and have so much to live for. But the urge is still there, like a nervous tick. Something will go wrong, and the image of slitting my wrists pops up in my brain." Darkest secrets: "In my 20s, I wanted to feel beautiful, worthy, and loved so badly. This urge led me to sleep with strangers, lots of them. It wasn’t even the act of sex I was after. I didn’t really even like sex, but the lead-up to it, the pursuit, feeling like someone wanted and needed me, filled this void inside me." Boy, I think so many of us can relate to that feeling. And that’s super common, when somebody has experienced sexual abuse. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I want a woman to gently brush my hair. Just writing that made me realize I just wanna feel nurtured." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I'd like to tell my mother how I remember my childhood. She has a very different version." What do you wish for? "I want to be a good mom. I want my child to know she's loved." Have your shared these things with others? "My sister. We share a lot of things with each other that we wouldn’t say out loud to anyone else." That's fantastic. That's so important to have somebody. How do you feel after writing these things down? "Relief." Thank you for filling that out.

[01:20:08] This is … this is an email that I got, um, and it says, "I am Captain Ann Hester. Contact me back, and I will explain everything to you. My regards." And then, nothing more. And so, I got thinking, Captain Ann Hester. She must be of some consequence, if she has made it to captain. Which makes me think I should just … email her back. And just see what … what she has to say. Maybe, because she … she says, "I will explain everything to you," which, to me … I assume that means all the answers in the world. And why wouldn't a captain know those things? I mean, once you put the captain hat on, isn't that kind of what happens next? So, I sent her some questions. I said, uh, I wrote, "When people tell me to have a blessed day, why does it irk me?" And she wrote back, "Because it's a sneaky way of them bragging that they go to church." I was like, of course! Of course! I like the cut her jib. I asked her, "How can I win in Vegas?" Captain Ann Hester said, "Owe a casino." There's a helicopter going overhead; I dunno if you can hear that. I asked her, "Why do I only eat sugar right before bed, like it's illegal and police are at the door?" And she wrote me back and said, "Because laying alone in bed reminds you of the possibility that you will die alone. And while it's unlikely, in your childhood trauma, it feels real. Plus, ice cream is awesome." If you guys have any questions for Captain Ann Hester, please email them through the web site, or directly at mentalpod@gmail.com. She, she … she seems like an intellectual heavyweight, and I am so glad that she has offered to explain everything to me, and, um, I sent her one about string theory and I haven’t heard back yet. But, um, I've very excited about this new relationship. Captain Ann Hester.

[01:23:01] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Grocery Store Dissociation." And, I just wanna read, uh, a couple of excerpts from it. She's, uh, 20, identifies as straight, and was raised in a totally chaotic environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts." And, as I read this, picture this being done in front of police. That's, that's when I think, when we ask ourselves, is it big enough to be considered abuse, ask yourself would that adult have done it with police standing there? "My foster parents got divorced, and I went to live with my foster dad at around age 11. My foster dad never really had another partner. He kinda just confided in me. I never really had a mother; his ex-wife was abusive, so puberty was strange. He would go through the trash and look at my pads. Have me model the bras he bought me. Start slapping my ass and poking my chest. I just feel strange about putting a definitive label on it, because it continued until I moved out after graduating at 18. I feel like I hold responsibility and it wasn’t 'bad enough' to be called something." Yeah, just ask yourself, would he have done it with police standing there. And, and that's … there's your answer. (Pauses) She's been physically and emotionally abused. "I was born into the foster system. My foster parents were very resentful against me. My earliest memories being dragged out of my by, by my hair, and dragged down the stairs. I wet myself. I don’t remember what happened after that. I don’t have very many happy memories before the age of 18. I was mainly trying to survive the abuse. Any time I tried to speak up about it, I was instantly shut down. If I told the school, they would only call DSS, who would CALL BEFORE SHOWING UP TO THE HOUSE. I got beat to a pulp every time they came." You know what would be great, would be if, when they came, they planted a bug, and for 24 hours, they could hear what happened in the house after they make a call. They would probably know within 10 minutes of listening. (Pauses) Darkest secrets: "As far as I can remember, I hurt sexually three other little kids when I was young, maybe six to nine, without realizing what I was doing. I feel so guilty and disgusting about it now. I feel like a monster. I would never do anything like that now. The fact that I have to say that makes me feel like shit." You were a child, and you had no skills to cope. Zero. And it's time … you started … loving yourself. (Pauses) It's so hard to love yourself when you get abused as a kid, cuz it feels like the truth. It FEELS like the truth in your body, and to love yourself feels like such a lie. It feels … arrogant, uninformed, stupid … It's, it's, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. And yet, the few moments I've been able to let those feelings sink in, I could feel myself relax and my mood pick up. But it's so hard. It's so hard. Have you shared these things with others? "The only person I've told of my foster father is my boyfriend's mother. She was incredibly accepting and sincere. I felt uncomfortable with the topic, but 100 percent comfortable with her." And that's one of the reasons I wanted to read this, because it highlights the fact that we can find somebody safe to witness our truth, to validate our feelings. To see our pain. God, I think 80 percent of the actions that humans take in our lives is a way … to not feel our pain or to have our pain validated. Or, I need to start hanging out with other people. How do you feel after writing these things down? "These things make me sad. I think of them in my head as a story that I just kinda go along with. When I see their truths, I feel really overwhelmed, because I can't believe that all of this has happened to me. I don’t remember a lot of my life; just a few memories of abuse or whatever. I realize the life I live and choke up. I can't accept it." Is there anything you'd like to share with some who shares your thoughts or experiences? "You're not faking it. This is real. It's fucked up, but it's real." (Pauses) Thank you for sharing all that. That must have been really hard to … All of you guys that fill these survey out, the stuff that you … have to relive and share in these things, um …

[01:29:22] And then, finally, this is a happy moment. This was filled out by a woman who calls herself, "I Think I'm OK." And she writes, "It took me over five years to find the right medication. I finally struck gold after attending a student clinic at a medical college. Basically, it's where they send students nearing the end of their medical degree so they have real experience. I finally found people who saw ME, instead of spinning the SSRI wheel. On my first appointment, they talked with me for two hours. I had a way better experience, since I had a student in the room who was trying to learn from my case. They were also backed up by two teaching doctors. They were willing to try something new. I have the depression-anxiety-ADHD combo, which can be difficult. I feel so, so great. Not artificially great or anything; I'm still going to therapy and I still have bad days, I dipped into a depressive episode, and it was so much easier to handle. No death wishes, no breakdowns. Just feeling depressed and taking time for me and focusing on self-care, and feeling worth the effort. I've clarity about why I do the things I do, and I feel like the past me is a toxic friend I finally cut out of my life." Oh, I see: "past me," the previous version of her was a toxic friend. "There is hope. There is someone out there who cares, like my team cares about me. Consider a teaching clinic if one is available. Life won't be perfect, but I feel equipped to deal with it for the first time." That's so awesome. It took me … about 15 or 16 years to find the right combination of meds. And it wasn’t a shit show all along the way. There was, there was times when I would feel like, okay, you know, I'm on the right combination. And then I would backslide, or one of them would need adjusting, or one of them would kind of stop working. And the best lessons that I took from that was to be patient with the process and be kind to myself along the way. And when I feel depressed or anxious or the world feels like too much, instead of blaming myself, treat myself with kindness and like I have the flu. Because it is. Depression is, it's a flu of the brain and the soul, to me. And you wouldn't beat yourself up if you had the flu flu. So why would you beat yourself up for a flu that also makes you feel emotionally shitty? Not only run down physically, but emotionally shitty? So that's my two cents. In Canada, that's about … a little less than three cents. Oh, that joke never gets old (chuckles). Anyway, I hold you heard, uh, something today that … helped you, brought you comfort, made you laugh, made you cry. Pissed you off—do I dare say that? And I hope you realize that, whatever you're going through, whatever you're feeling, you're not alone. And thanks for listening.

Outro