SinCitta Profile Blog Joined August 2010 Germany 2127 Posts #1



In order to get hyped up for the WCS Season 1 Finals, I thought "hey, Blizzard has a team in San Francisco now, might check out what they are doing". After having somewhat problems even finding that channel, this is what I found.



First of all, let me preface that this isn't a bash of the persons involved in the examples. It's something prevalent in SC2 content and I could have easily chosen many others that fall into the same kind of trap. I am grateful that we have all the content producers in the scene. But I feel some things need to improve to move content quality forward.In order to get hyped up for the WCS Season 1 Finals, I thought "hey, Blizzard has a team in San Francisco now, might check out what they are doing". After having somewhat problems even finding that channel, this is what I found.



Transcript:

"JangBi coming in first in the group, playing extremely well. Really showing some fantastic play. Game 1... I believe this was, versus Swagger (?). Craaaazy impressive set, normally, you know, we are not the greatest fans of PvP, but wow, this... errr some incredible matches in last night's up and downs. And then, YugiOh, actually, making it out as well, going 3:1, really solid play out of him and I can't just believe that Gumiho went out 0:3. That absolutely blew me away."



It's the transcript of the first part of the show and is characteristic for the rest of it and also the sequel of the video. Look at the following problems:



Transcript:It's the transcript of the first part of the show and is characteristic for the rest of it and also the sequel of the video. Look at the following problems: Problem 1: Telling me about stats and results instead of telling me about the games

Problem 2: Buzzwords, meaningless compliments and cliches about players

Problem 3: Confuse giving information with creating hype, resulting in having none of both



Problem 1



It could have been easily written by someone that didn't watch the games at all. Check the live report thread for a minute, then think of something, write it down and then present it. I am not saying that this is the case, I am saying that it appears like this outputwise. If I cared about the result, I wouldn't be watching the video, I would have looked the results up on Liquipedia, the live report thread, on Reddit, on the WCS page, on my local esports website, ... What I want to know when I watch a video about it is a summary of what happened in the games.



And talking about race winrates of a player still doesn't mean you are talking about the game. Stats are nice accompanying information to games, but not more. You are still talking about stats. You know who is the best about giving meaningful information purely with statistical information without knowing one bit about the game?



It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play. The SC2 talk is superficial most of the time compared to the talk in other games while it is (in my opinion) a more complex game. Unfortunately, so complex that many just opt to drop the intracacies of strategies completely. Don't forget that the best way to have people watch the next tournament, the tournament after that etc. is to have them hooked on the game and players, not numbers.



. Check the live report thread for a minute, then think of something, write it down and then present it. I am not saying that this is the case, I am saying that it appears like this outputwise. If I cared about the result, I wouldn't be watching the video, I would have looked the results up on Liquipedia, the live report thread, on Reddit, on the WCS page, on my local esports website, ... What I want to know when I watch a video about it is a summary of what happened in the games.Stats are nice accompanying information to games, but not more. You are still talking about stats. You know who is the best about giving meaningful information purely with statistical information without knowing one bit about the game? Monsieur Aligulac It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play. The SC2 talk is superficial most of the time compared to the talk in other games while it is (in my opinion) a more complex game. Unfortunately, so complex that many just opt to drop the intracacies of strategies completely. Problem 2



What have we learned about JangBi? He is good, he plays well - nay, his place is fantastic. The set he plays in is impressive and he is the reason why I overcame my dislike for PvPs. His matches were incredible!



Yes, it does happen in normal sports coverage that the commentator says: "Robben plays well today...". But he doesn't say it again and again with the same breath. And more importantly: He says why he thinks he plays well today. "...he is very visible, running up and down the pitch. He helps in the defense which isn't very typical of him"-



Saying it like in the video makes you really wonder if JangBi played well after all. Did he play that well or are you just hyping the game because Blizzard pays you for it? A sports commentator doing the same in normal sports would make a parody out of his job.



I think the origin of Problem 2 is that casters, commentators and presenters are very afraid to say something substantial with the risk of being bashed because of it. Instead they fallback to meaningless compliments. I show how well I know the players by complimenting those that are hyped up right now. And conversely, we dislike PvP normally because this is the mainstream consensus.



Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively. Buzzwords always somehow hit the mark. They sound like the speaker knows his stuff. But on closer inspection, they leave you unsatisfied. Someone that knows SC2 will want to know: What exactly did YugiOh do to classify him as solid in the series? And it will take some time to realize that aggressive is the codeword for roach baneling all-ins. Someone that doesn't know SC2 too well will think "What does solid play mean? And why is that good? It sounds boring and uneventful" whereas aggressive signalizes high-paced and action packed play. Again, explain what is happening instead of hiding behind words.



In the same category fall cliches about players. Best example, how often have you heard TLO being labeled as creative or Ret being labeled as greedy? Sometimes casters hold on so much to their preconceived opinions that they completely ignore what is happening on the map. For example in the WCS EU Challenger match between KrasS and Harstem, Harstem was seen as the overwhelming favorite against KrasS despite losing to KrasS only very recently on two separate occasions. Later the caster admitted he didn't know much about the EU scene at all and just assumed Harstem was the favorite because he just won a tournament and was on top of Reddit.



What have we learned about JangBi?Yes, it does happen in normal sports coverage that the commentator says:. But he doesn't say it again and again with the same breath. And more importantly: He says why he thinks he plays well today.Saying it like in the video makes you really wonder if JangBi played well after all. Did he play that well or are you just hyping the game because Blizzard pays you for it? A sports commentator doing the same in normal sports would make a parody out of his job.I think the origin of Problem 2 is that casters, commentators and presenters are very afraid to say something substantial with the risk of being bashed because of it. Instead they fallback to meaningless compliments.And conversely,because this is the mainstream consensus.Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays. Buzzwords always somehow hit the mark. They sound like the speaker knows his stuff. But on closer inspection, they leave you unsatisfied. Someone that knows SC2 will want to know: What exactly did YugiOh do to classify him as solid in the series? And it will take some time to realize that aggressive is the codeword for roach baneling all-ins. Someone that doesn't know SC2 too well will think "What does solid play mean? And why is that good? It sounds boring and uneventful" whereas aggressive signalizes high-paced and action packed play.In the same category fall cliches about players. Best example, how often have you heard TLO being labeled as creative or Ret being labeled as greedy? Sometimes casters hold on so much to their preconceived opinions that they completely ignore what is happening on the map. For example in the WCS EU Challenger match between KrasS and Harstem, Harstem was seen as the overwhelming favorite against KrasS despite losing to KrasS only very recently on two separate occasions. Later the caster admitted he didn't know much about the EU scene at all and just assumed Harstem was the favorite because he just won a tournament and was on top of Reddit. Problem 3

Watch this video:



Watch this video:



Which video hypes you up more? Which one should you show a friend to convince him to watch the event? The video produced by the former IPL staff or this fanmade video. For me, it is the low-end fanmade and somewhat cheesy trailer and the conservative formula: Players' faces, ingame clips and dramatic music. "But you said you wanted more information about game" - Yes, I want both. But more importantly, mixing these things up isn't fun. Either the information is hyping things up by itself - or it doesn't. The weather forecast isn't going to get more interesting by speaking it with a dramatic voice.



In fact, most sports coverage you get on TV is hype. You rarely find the tactics table taken out. There needs to be separate hype videos for WCS. Hype leads to more live viewers, more than "high level of play" (how do you even know you get high level of play until the games are over?).



Yes, talking about the games alone creates hype - but don't expect it to do it as well as a hype video. And don't mix these things up. Who exactly is attracted by results spoken out in a dramatic voice? Tell me why I should watch the next games, not why I should have watched the past ones! If you make a recap, give me a summary of the games rather than trying to sell them to me.



Which video hypes you up more? Which one should you show a friend to convince him to watch the event? The video produced by the former IPL staff or this fanmade video. For me, it is the low-end fanmade and somewhat cheesy trailer and the conservative formula: Players' faces, ingame clips and dramatic music. "But you said you wanted more information about game" - Yes, I want both. But more importantly, mixing these things up isn't fun. Either the information is hyping things up by itself - or it doesn't. The weather forecast isn't going to get more interesting by speaking it with a dramatic voice.In fact, most sports coverage you get on TV is hype. You rarely find the tactics table taken out. There needs to be separate hype videos for WCS. Hype leads to more live viewers, more than "high level of play" (how do you even know you get high level of play until the games are over?).Yes, talking about the games alone creates hype - but don't expect it to do it as well as a hype video. And don't mix these things up. Who exactly is attracted by results spoken out in a dramatic voice? Tell me why I should watch the next games, not why I should have watched the past ones! If you make a recap, give me a summary of the games rather than trying to sell them to me. Solving the problems



An example how good a informational show around the games can be, I would like to give NASL's The Pulse as an example. They talk about the games themselves, the players and the teams, not only report stats and results. The recaps (often) summarize the games well and yet are still brief. And the recaps are actually only a small part of the content! After the show, you feel you got more value than skimming over Liquipedia.



How to get more expertise into esports talk? In sports in TV, there are pundits. We have such a diverse and big pool of players that this shouldn't be a problem. Why do casters and commentators make predictions who make it out of the group. Ask players who they think will advance and put it on screen. What do they think about the games, who do they cheer for etc, etc.



Hype videos: It should be a priority for tournament organizers to make them. I regularly find hype videos for Dreamhack on Reddit. There is even a hype video for the Homestory Cup (one guy in an apartment and capable helpers) on top of Reddit on the weekend of the WCS Season 1 Finals (Blizzard)! And yes, Blizzard, you are a tournament organizer now as well!



Of course, one could always say, it doesn't fit the show's format. And I wouldn't blame for example LiveOnThree for how they do things. But those that focus on SC2, why should your show exist in the first place if you get more information in five minutes on Liquipedia? An example how good a informational show around the games can be, I would like to give NASL's The Pulse as an example. They talk about the games themselves, the players and the teams, not only report stats and results. The recaps (often) summarize the games well and yet are still brief. And the recaps are actually only a small part of the content! After the show, you feel you got more value than skimming over Liquipedia.How to get more expertise into esports talk? In sports in TV, there are pundits. We have such a diverse and big pool of players that this shouldn't be a problem. Why do casters and commentators make predictions who make it out of the group. Ask players who they think will advance and put it on screen. What do they think about the games, who do they cheer for etc, etc.Hype videos: It should be a priority for tournament organizers to make them. I regularly find hype videos for Dreamhack on Reddit. There is even a hype video for the Homestory Cup (one guy in an apartment and capable helpers) on top of Reddit on the weekend of the WCS Season 1 Finals (Blizzard)! And yes, Blizzard, you are a tournament organizer now as well!Of course, one could always say, it doesn't fit the show's format. And I wouldn't blame for example LiveOnThree for how they do things. But those that focus on SC2, why should your show exist in the first place if you get more information in five minutes on Liquipedia?

Reflexz Profile Joined May 2011 4 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-07 17:47:25 #2 You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.



I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.



I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.



The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..





darthfoley Profile Blog Joined February 2011 United States 7923 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-07 17:39:35 #3 I actually would enjoy some personalized stats regarding specific players. Too many times do casters just speak of the "race win rate," I would much rather hear about how player X does on map Y or in tournament Z.



Casting has been much improved since the beta, but I still think it would be cool to have stats either before/after (in game there is plenty to look at). I just feel like it would be interesting to note that player X has a 61% WR on map Y even though his race averages 46% in major tournaments (for example).



I thoroughly agree with the rest though. Recaps are DEFINITELY needed, I'm tired of hearing about "nerd chills because their play was AMAZING" 40x per tournament... watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix

Kyir Profile Joined June 2011 United States 373 Posts #4 On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote:

You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.



I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.



I think a bigger problem is that a lot of them aren't trained as casters per-say. It's probably pretty easy to fall into the habit of saying "good" to refer to a lot of different kinds of play even if you know other ways of describing them. I think a bigger problem is that a lot of them aren't trained as casters per-say. It's probably pretty easy to fall into the habit of saying "good" to refer to a lot of different kinds of play even if you know other ways of describing them.

KirA_TheGreaT Profile Joined April 2011 France 203 Posts #5



I agree with your critisicm ! What have we learned about JangBi? He is good, he plays well - nay, his place is fantastic. The set he plays in is impressive and he is the reason why I overcame my dislike for PvPs. His matches were incredible!



This is so true, they just hype everything and don't even talk about the actual games or what players did. This is so true, they just hype everything and don't even talk about the actual games or what players did.

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts #6 Very good criticism! "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

n0ise Profile Joined April 2010 3110 Posts #7 so apparently, if you cast sc2, you should probably be proficient in at least one of sc2 or casting - if not, God forbid, both.



who even thought of that

Jetaap Profile Blog Joined November 2010 France 3251 Posts #8 Nice write up, I can't bring myself to watch any of the content surrounding the wcs finals, and I mostly agree with you and the reason their coverage feels so subpar.

NrG.NeverExpo Profile Blog Joined December 2008 Canada 2091 Posts #9 Yea there are casters who are successful because of entertainment value alone, some are just really fun to listen to due to their voice/cadence/humour etc when in reality they can't contribute high level insight because they simply don't have the capacity to. TwitteR: @NeverExpo follow me, i'll follow back :)

Zenbrez Profile Joined June 2012 Canada 5957 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-07 17:48:45 #10 I agree with hype/buzzwords. It find it really displeasing when (for example) when the casters for WCS EU are calling mid-tier EU players among the best in the world. Sure, if you're referring to the entire sc2 player population, Socke is really fucking good. Among the best in the world? There are dozens of players much better than him (I'm not picking on Socke, can replace his name with just about anybody). I feel like "best in the world" gets thrown around too often, and should be reserved for the TRULY best in the world (where is mostly applicable to 5-10 players).



Same with players like Jaedong, they talk about him as if he's the same in sc2 as he was in bw. He has not been impressive at all in sc2, yet they say things like "If they lose this match they have to then face off against JAEDONG, THE TYRANT HIMSELF, NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY VS HIM, HE'LL RIP YOUR ARMS OFF, CHEW THEM AND SPIT THEM RIGHT BACK OUT". It's very unnecessary and inaccurate. Refer to my post.

Dundron2000 Profile Joined October 2011 Sweden 1139 Posts #11 On June 08 2013 02:47 Zenbrez wrote:

I agree with hype/buzzwords. It find it really displeasing when (for example) when the casters for WCS EU are calling mid-tier EU players among the best in the world. Sure, if you're referring to the entire sc2 player population, Socke is really fucking good. Among the best in the world? There are dozens of players much better than him (I'm not picking on Socke, can replace his name with just about anybody). I feel like "best in the world" gets thrown around too often, and should be reserved for the TRULY best in the world (where is mostly applicable to 5-10 players).



Same with players like Jaedong, they talk about him as if he's the same in sc2 as he was in bw. He has not been impressive at all in sc2, yet they say things like "If they lose this match they have to then face off against JAEDONG, THE TYRANT HIMSELF, NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY VS HIM, HE'LL RIP YOUR ARMS OFF, CHEW THEM AND SPIT THEM RIGHT BACK OUT". It's very unnecessary and inaccurate.



Jaedong hype still works for me... Jaedong hype still works for me... n.Die_Jaedong

BronzeKnee Profile Joined March 2011 United States 5110 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-07 17:51:23 #12 Idra is one of my favorite casters due to these problems in OP. It also why I enjoy Artosis and Tasteless.



And this goes back to bringing in E-Sports personalities who know nothing about the game. How many times have we seen "pretty" female hosts do interviews that are totally devoid of substance simply because they know nothing about SC2?



It is sad that the major organizations choose to hire from outside of the SC2 scene just for good looks or a nice voice.

Twiggs Profile Joined January 2011 United States 590 Posts #13 On June 08 2013 02:40 Kyir wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote:

You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.



I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.



I think a bigger problem is that a lot of them aren't trained as casters per-say. It's probably pretty easy to fall into the habit of saying "good" to refer to a lot of different kinds of play even if you know other ways of describing them. I think a bigger problem is that a lot of them aren't trained as casters per-say. It's probably pretty easy to fall into the habit of saying "good" to refer to a lot of different kinds of play even if you know other ways of describing them.

Most of the casters dont play enough and in their defense SC 2 isnt as mapped out as BW yet and you can't analyze play as much right now.



In BW you could critique a players sim city and building placement let alone his choice of tech and strategy. That right there gives alot to talk about. SC 2 on the other hand you usually see builds for the first time so you kind of are waiting to see what happens and casters fill that time with useless buzzwords.



But I agree with the OP instead of useless buzzwords and stats and wild opinions of the casters, if you have nothing to talk about strategy wise, then give a play by play and use voice inflection. They do it in hockey and the Tampa Bay Lightning play by play caster is emotional enough to get me hyped even if Im watching it live the voicing of what Im watching adds to the effect.



So rather than this: MVP is dominating so far he is moving his army in and attacking, he has won every TvP this tournament, oh here it goes!



I would like this: MVP is moving his army up to the middle of the map, taking the highground spot near the zel naga tower. This spot is a good place for his marine marauder medivac army to defend against Rains zealots. At this stage in the game kiting the zealots dead is the key to any terran victory and this highground will offer his army some few extra shots before he has to kite back.



This would be if both players are not moving around and there is a lull period. In an actual fight just make it quicker and call out big plays.



ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.



lol sorry about the caps but seriously, most casters cant predict the outcome of a fight to save their lives let alone build up suspense by doing so. Just call out what you see and not what you think will happen. Most of the casters dont play enough and in their defense SC 2 isnt as mapped out as BW yet and you can't analyze play as much right now.In BW you could critique a players sim city and building placement let alone his choice of tech and strategy. That right there gives alot to talk about. SC 2 on the other hand you usually see builds for the first time so you kind of are waiting to see what happens and casters fill that time with useless buzzwords.But I agree with the OP instead of useless buzzwords and stats and wild opinions of the casters, if you have nothing to talk about strategy wise, then give a play by play and use voice inflection. They do it in hockey and the Tampa Bay Lightning play by play caster is emotional enough to get me hyped even if Im watching it live the voicing of what Im watching adds to the effect.So rather than this: MVP is dominating so far he is moving his army in and attacking, he has won every TvP this tournament, oh here it goes!I would like this: MVP is moving his army up to the middle of the map, taking the highground spot near the zel naga tower. This spot is a good place for his marine marauder medivac army to defend against Rains zealots. At this stage in the game kiting the zealots dead is the key to any terran victory and this highground will offer his army some few extra shots before he has to kite back.This would be if both players are not moving around and there is a lull period. In an actual fight just make it quicker and call out big plays.ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.lol sorry about the caps but seriously, most casters cant predict the outcome of a fight to save their lives let alone build up suspense by doing so. Just call out what you see and not what you think will happen. My life for Auir | FLASH . JD . BISU . HERO . Nony . Incontrol . FIGHTING

Flossy Profile Blog Joined August 2011 United States 868 Posts #14 Good work! I fully agree and I think that people need to put more time into this stuff. etternaonline.com

Nerski Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 1093 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-07 17:57:03 #15 I've been saying for years how easily they could up the way content is produced and delivered to the SC2 viewer audience. For various reasons it just doesn't seem to get there. OP is good and brings up valid points that hopefully get fixed if esports in general will ever make the leap for a niche interest to main stream media.



For the people going on a caster rant, I present you this problem and if you can solve it then by all means you'll see headway. You have casters who carry a lot of weight in the industry, many of which to a tune sponsors for instance can put a face to a name to.



So even if there were commentators out there who can do a better job, how do you get them that job in the first place? Having run the caster gauntlet myself there is a billion and 2 hurdles to get over to even get a half way decent gig. It's a lot of time and sacrifice that most people either can't or are not willing to forgo family/career responsibilities to make. Speaking from personal experience there is no good way to usurp a name with recognition except by slowly building your own which takes a lot of time, hence why you see new faces only every so often.



TLDR: the only way casters with potential gets thrust forward is if a league grabs random people with potential and gives them enough financial incentive to focus on it. Twitter: @GoForNerski /// Youtube: Youtube.com/nerskisc

Ireniicas Profile Joined April 2013 66 Posts #16 Well articulated feedback.

Sissors Profile Joined March 2012 1395 Posts #17 ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.

Actually, you do.



Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.



Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also. Actually, you do.Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.

Apom Profile Blog Joined August 2011 France 615 Posts #18 It's simply impossible to take seriously casters who always act as if every player is playing well. Even the best players won't perform at their top every single match, and yet, the only casters I've heard say "X v Y was a terrible game" in the past three months are the P&T casters. Artosis and ToD do it in a more subdued way sometimes, but that's it.

LuisFrost Profile Joined February 2011 Mexico 129 Posts #19 I agree 100% with the over use of buzzwords. It makes me feel like the casters have no idea about what they're talking about.





SHOOG Profile Blog Joined December 2011 United States 1630 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-07 23:53:10 #20 You points you brought up are the exact problems I have been having with SC2 coverage as of recently (mainly in the WCS). The biggest annoyance to me is the use of buzzwords from casters. I understand at times it might be the best thing to say, but for the WCS Korean Recap video I expect much more. When they consistently use them it gives me the sense that they don't feel like giving a better description, or that they just really don't know what else to say.

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