The broadcaster and the England and Lyon player swap notes on winning, losing and the changing face of football

Clare Balding How do you reflect on the World Cup in France this summer?

Lucy Bronze After we were knocked out by the US in the semi-finals, there was a lot of frustration, anger and disappointment. We were convinced we were going to get to the final and win. It’s only now that I am able to think more rationally: we were knocked out by the most successful women’s team in the world.

Clare What was the dressing room mood like after Steph Houghton missed that semi-final penalty?

Lucy Steph was sitting with her head in her hands. Some players were crying, some were angry and others had no emotion and just wanted to get on the bus. I went to the warm-up room and sat in a corner with a curtain around me so no one could see me. It will haunt me for the rest of my life.

Clare What do you think the team could have done differently or better?

Lucy We need to be prepared for the bigger games. The US have won the World Cup three times. We made the mistake of not going at them in the first couple of minutes. We have become a top team, but we need to become the top team.

Clare I assume winning the Silver Ball as the second most outstanding player – second only to Megan Rapinoe – didn’t make up for losing.

Lucy Absolutely not! I didn’t watch the final of the World Cup: I was sitting in bed, watching something like Homes Under The Hammer. And then friends started texting, telling me I’d won Silver Ball and I just started crying. It didn’t mean anything because England hadn’t won.

Clare I’m fascinated to know what you see when you’re in France, playing with Lyon, as opposed to what is going on here in the UK. How far have we got to go in terms of the Women’s Super League (WSL) setup here in England?

Lucy In France, the women’s game has more commercial partners and sponsorships. Jean-Michel Aulas, the president, is a visionary. He thinks of himself as president of both the men’s and the women’s teams. We use the same training ground as the men. We have the same chef. [Lyon men’s player] Memphis Depay will come and have a chat. He knows all our names and whether we won or lost our last game.

Clare Do you think some of the drive for change will come from the young male players?

Lucy Yes. We talk about inspiring girls and we are 100% committed to doing so, but it’s boys I want to educate. It’s boys – or their dads – who have the perception that girls can’t play. Girls don’t, but they often start to doubt themselves when the boys criticise or mock them.

Clare The change happens when girls hit 13 or 14. When I go into schools and talk to 11- or 12-year-old girls, they are game for anything. And then the boys start thinking they have to behave like men. Gender stereotyping kicks in and it’s so damaging. You do, however, see some areas where things are changing. When I started out, there were only two high-profile female sports broadcasters on television. One was Sue Barker and the other was Helen Rollason. Hazel Irvine is a few years older than me. Gabby Logan is a couple of years younger. We were the second wave.

Lucy It’s crazy that you can name everyone from your era.

Clare But I can’t name everyone who is coming up now. Thank God. Women are doing commentary now as well, which is great. There was a perception that women’s voices didn’t have the range, but it’s bollocks. As a woman gets older, her voice tends to develop more bass notes. I kept telling my boss that he was looking at the wrong age group. Equally, it’s vital to target young girls and let them make their mistakes on local radio rather than pitching straight up on Radio 5 Live, making one mistake and…

Lucy …everyone starts shouting about how terrible all women are at commentating!

Clare We have to give women permission to fail. I won’t look at social media when I know I’m vulnerable. I have to protect myself because it’s just reams of abuse telling me I don’t know anything.

Lucy Why would you even pay attention to the opinion of someone you will probably never meet? It’s not helpful. Having said that, I do look. Male footballers get abuse, too.

Facebook Twitter Pinterest Lucy: ‘It’s dads who have the perception that girls can’t play.’ Photograph: Ben Quinton/The Guardian

Clare And the racism in the men’s game is staggering. I find it extraordinary and frightening. I used to watch Chelsea in the 90s and there was often a small pocket of racist fans hurling abuse at black players and fans.

Lucy It would be nice to think that times have moved forward since then, but…

Clare …but there’s still not a single out gay footballer. Whereas women’s football is, for want of a better phrase, incredibly gay-friendly. Plus, I’ve never heard a racist taunt watching women’s football. Before the Euro 2017 final in the Netherlands, in which the hosts played Denmark, I walked from the middle of Enschede to the stadium. All the fans were dancing and chatting – I didn’t know football could be like that.

I once said to Frank Skinner at the Sports Personality Of The Year awards that I hate men’s football and he was shocked. He said: “Imagine if I said that about women’s football!” But I’m not making that statement based on gender, rather on what men’s football has become.

Lucy The WSL is the first full-time professional league, but a lot of the players have to carry on working because they don’t get paid enough to pay the rent and eat. I read about your involvement, alongside Hope Powell, Tanni Grey-Thompson and Katherine Grainger, with the all-party parliamentary group on women’s sport. What was on the agenda?

Clare I was talking about putting pressure on television – and particularly the BBC because it’s licence-fee funded – to show more women’s sports. And they have done, albeit with a reliance on the red button. I get cross when 5 Live doesn’t mention women’s sport. If you were out injured before a big international game and England said it might take a week to get back to full fitness, no one would hear about it. And yet, in men’s sport, you hear about [José] Mourinho sneezing.

Did you think of doing anything other than football when you were younger?

Lucy I played tennis when I was very young, but I prefer playing in a team. I played one game at the tennis club in Jesmond [a well-to-do suburb of Newcastle]. You don’t use a referee when you’re younger, and this girl – who was from a private school – was blatantly cheating. I was so shy and so honest. I was in tears. I never played again after that. For ages after I gave up, Mum would still say: “You could have been like Serena Williams!” She wanted me in little white dresses and frilly socks. I kept turning up in football boots and kit. If not tennis or football, I’d have been an accountant.

Clare You could still be an accountant. I think we’ve got to allow ourselves different chapters in our lives. Apart from those who earn an absolute fortune, most sportspeople have to consider what they’ll do once they stop playing.

Lucy I don’t ever want to retire! I want to play until my body gives up on me.

• This is an edited extract from A Game Of Two Halves: Famous Football Fans Meet Their Heroes by Amy Raphael (Allen & Unwin, £14.99). To order a copy for £13.19, go to guardianbookshop.com. A percentage of proceeds goes to support UNHCR’s work with refugees, unhcr.org/football.

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