Kirsty Wark: 'You said and I repeat, 'Labour calls time on the Tory market experiment of the NHS, I'm clear the market is not the answer to 21st century health and care'.

'Last week a minister in your department, Liz Kendall, said 'there remain as role for private and voluntary where they can add capacity to the NHS or challenge the system, and indeed what matters is what works'. What is it?'

Andy Burnham said: 'I said myself today there is still a role for private and voluntary providers. But I also did say very clearly that the market is not the answer.

'Why is it not the answer? Because the market delivers fragmentation of care, and the future demands the opposite, it demands integration of care.

'We need to free up the NHS to integrate, to partner and to merge. So it can change services and make them affordable in this very difficult outlook that we face.'

Wark: 'So what is the right percentage of outsourcing then?'

Burnham: 'There isn't a right percentage. I'm very clear that the NHS should be our preferred provider, so I don't see a role for the private sector where it can replace core public provision at the heart of every community.

'But there is a supporting role, where extra capacity is needed, as Liz Kendall said, to bring down waiting lists. That is where they can play a part.'

Wark: 'Let's be clear: you would like the NHS to do less outsourcing than they do now?'

Burnham: 'Yes, I believe in the public NHS and what it represents. Kirsty, I won't be apologetic about that – I believe in a service that puts people before profits. What I believe is why the public trusts the NHS today in the way that they do.'

Wark: 'The vast majority of outsourcing that was done, 4.4 per cent, was done in the last Labour Government. There is only less than 2 per cent has happened in the last four years, so do you want it back at 4. 4% or was that a mistake?'

Burnham: 'Let me explain that graphic if I may, because what happened in the early years of the last Government, we brought in private sector capacity, to bring down waiting lists.'

Wark: 'Was that a mistake?'

Burnham: 'No it wasn't, because I wanted waiting lists to come down, everybody did. The policy then began to change toward the end of the last Government – let me answer the question – where there was a version of any willing provider.

'When I came in as Health Secretary, to show you that these aren't easy words from opposition, I thought it that going too far because I thought it may destabilise NHS provision.'

Wark: 'Let's take a GP and he has got a patient that needs treatment, and he has two choices – one choice is the public provision, and the other choice is outsourcing, and he makes the decision that the outsourcing is the best for the outcome of that patient. Is the GP allowed to do that or not?'

Burnham: 'The GP has to make the best decision for the patient...'

Wark: 'So if that means outsourcing, it means outsourcing!'

Burnham: 'I said to you at the very start of this interview… that there is a role for the private sector and the voluntary.'

Wark: 'It is hard to understand, because here is the thing: we did a study and we looked at knees and hips across a number of patients, and the ones that were outsourced had a better quality of care, they felt, and a better outcome.

'So therefore that matters to people. That matters to people who pay into the National Health Service to know that they have the opportunity if necessary to go to the best place for them. You seem to be suggesting it is not a case of replacing but giving them the possibility of provision, and that is what you want to take away.'

Burnham: 'I'm not sure what you are not understanding. There is a role, but if you let it go too far it destabilises the NHS.'

Wark: 'What is too far?'

Burnham: 'Too far is the graph you showed there.'

Wark: 'Hang on, it was 1.5 per cent more than you.'

Burnham: No, it was continuing to increase through the coalition years and it is ramping up now.

Wark: 'Tony Blair once said that 40 per cent of operations could possibly be done by outsourcing, I'm asking you, if people have trouble getting varicose veins being dealt with or hernias or chemotherapy, then is it alright if it is the best outcome.'

Burnham: 'The Health and Social Care Act in 2012, the coalition's reform that nobody gave them permission to bring forward, has put an alien ideology at the heart of the NHS, and that is to put all services out to the market.

'That goes against the grain of the NHS ethos, and actually begins to undermine public NHS organisations. That for me is beyond the limits of where the market should be, because it starts to fragment and destabilise services, and that is beginning to happen right now.'

Wark: 'You have just said all services – actually outsourcing is 6 per cent of the NHS?'

Burnham: 'But it is increasing every year. Because all services have to be put out, so as they are coming up for renewal, CCGs are having to put services out to the market.'

Wark: 'What level, 2 per cent, 1 per cent, 0.5 per cent, what do you want to see? Because you know what?

'Voters are concerned about politicising the NHS and they want clarity. If you are making statements like, it is rising at nearly 6.6 per cent is too much, people want a straight answer and they want know what percentage you would accept?'

Burnham: 'I have given clarity today. I have said very clearly that the public NHS is the preferred provider, and do you know what? I believe...'

Wark: 'A number, please.'

Burnham: 'The public support the idea of a service that puts people before profits. I'm not going to put a number, because...'

Wark: 'Well, is it less than 6 per cent or less than 4.4 per cent?'

Burnham: 'I have said to you there is a role for the private and voluntary sector, and that is a decision at local level. If the public NHS needs support to bring down waiting lists, to add services that aren't available through local hospitals, that is a decision to be taken at local level.

'I'm not putting a target on saying that is the right level. What I am saying to you is this Government is taking the private sector right into the heart of the NHS and nobody, nobody has ever given this Prime Minister or this Government permission to put their NHS up for sale.'

Wark: 'If a local health board cannot get its varicose veins through without going to an outside provider in quite a big way, and maybe takes over 6 per cent, as far as you are concerned the outcome is more important, so therefore that is OK?'

Burnham: 'I don't think you have been listening to what I have been saying. I said to you very clearly at the beginning of the interview that there is a role, but it is within the context of the NHS as preferred provider.