lynsea garrison Kamalle, have you gotten in touch with Mariam in, like, the last 24 hours or so? Or have you heard from her recently? kamalle dabboussy I got a message from her. I got a message from Mariam. I wasn’t able to speak to her. livia albeck-ripka Can you read the message to us? kamalle dabboussy I’m — it’s actually, it’s two messages. If Australia doesn’t save, I think, the Aussies here right now, we’re slaves, and we’re screwed. And I think I’m going to die. That’s the two messages received overnight from her. livia albeck-ripka That can’t be an easy text to receive as a father. kamalle dabboussy No, it’s not. Yeah, I — it’s the fear of the unknown, and the fear of not knowing. But they are more petrified of the Syrians taking over than of anything else. And that’s their worst-case scenario. And that’s — ISIS cells and Syrian regime are the two biggest threats. And they seem to be becoming realized as the days progress. livia albeck-ripka And do you think that Mariam’s fears are — kamalle dabboussy Justified? Yeah, absolutely, I think her fears are justified. Absolutely, they are. If the Syrians come in, absolutely, they are.

[music]

livia albeck-ripka

Over the past few months, I’ve been getting to know a group of families in Australia, who’ve been organizing, providing solace to one another, because they are members of this strange club of people whose daughters and mothers and sisters are the family members of ISIS fighters. The person who I’ve gotten to know the best is Kamalle Dabboussy.

kamalle dabboussy I wanted to be an engaged father. Wanted her to grow up with people around her that loved her and that she could find solace with, that she could find friendships with. That’s really the expectations that I’d had. I, you know, never had the expectations that Mariam was going to be a future doctor, or chemist, or engineer. That wasn’t in my thoughts. It was really just making her a happy, well-rounded child and hopeful that she can achieve whatever she wanted to achieve. And I tried.

[music]

michael barbaro

In the months since the United States defeated ISIS in Syria, ISIS militants and their family members have been held in prison camps controlled by the U.S.-allied Kurdish forces. And in that time, parents around the world have been trying to get their daughters and grandchildren back to their home countries. But in the two weeks since President Trump abruptly recalled U.S. troops from the Syrian border, the fate of these women and children has become an urgent and unknown question. The Kurdish forces that had been guarding the camps have turned to defending themselves from the Turkish military coming across the border. And their new allies in Syria are now poised to take control of the camps. Today on “The Daily,” my colleague Livia Albeck-Ripka follows one father as he fights to get his daughter home. It’s Monday, October 21. Livia, tell me about Mariam.

livia albeck-ripka

Mariam was Kamalle’s first child. She was born in 1991. He describes her as this really —

kamalle dabboussy She was a stubborn little thing. [CHUCKLES]

livia albeck-ripka

— stubborn, lively toddler. And she kind of ran rings around her parents.

kamalle dabboussy She had a great wonder for the world. She always wanted to go about exploring. She always wanted to go out and visit. She always wanted to go out and see. Even just down to the local shop to get something was an adventure for her. And she’d walk out. And she’d be the first — and she’d be dressed right away to go. And she’d love to go out and see whatever she could see with the world. And she was determined. And that was lovely. You didn’t want a child to sit in a corner and just say, yes, sir, no, sir. You want her to go and explore, and test the boundaries, and figure out the world. And she was all that and more. She took up every space in our life, if I could put it that way.

livia albeck-ripka

She’s really boisterous, strong-willed. And from pretty early on, she starts to express to Kamalle that she really wants a little brother or sister. It’s kind of like from the very beginning, she knows that she wants to have a big family. So Kamalle and his wife have a little girl, Mariam’s sister. They kind of adored each other. They just had this wonderful sibling relationship.

michael barbaro

So this very much sounds like the kind of childhood that Kamalle was hoping for Mariam.

livia albeck-ripka

It was, but it didn’t last. Kamalle’s marriage wasn’t working out. Eventually, the two separate, and they split up the girls. Mariam is about 12, 13 at this time. She’s really upset about the split. But a decision is made. She’s going to go and live with Kamalle. And at first, it’s tough.

kamalle dabboussy Then when she passed a certain age, and she started to understand things a bit better, we became very close. And —

livia albeck-ripka

They have Sunday morning pancakes together. And they become closer and closer. They kind of, they tell each other everything.

kamalle dabboussy And we became — she became, you know, a very close friend, not only my daughter but a close friend. livia albeck-ripka I’ve heard you call her your best friend. kamalle dabboussy Yes. She was my best friend growing up. She had — by virtue of the fact that we were in the same house, she had my secrets. And I had her secrets. And she knew that. And —

livia albeck-ripka

One day, Mariam meets a boy. His name is Khaled. And she’s only 16. So it takes a little while for Kamalle to get to know this guy. But he likes him. He says —

kamalle dabboussy I did. I very much liked him. He was sweet. He was gentle. He was a little bit undisciplined in what he was doing in life. He actually reminded — he reminded me of myself a fair bit. livia albeck-ripka Mm. kamalle dabboussy I quite liked him. He was very, you know, he was — he seemed to have the temperament for her as well. She was —

livia albeck-ripka

Khaled also has this really big, stable family that it’s clear Mariam is drawn to.

kamalle dabboussy His family had been a bit more traditional and conservative than I was.

livia albeck-ripka

But they’re a little more strict and conservative than Kamalle’s practice of Islam, which is more philosophical, more based on his interpretation of what he thinks the laws mean, rather than ritualistically practicing them. But he says these people are really good people. He likes them. So eventually, Mariam comes to Kamalle. And she is barely 18. She tells him she wants to marry Khaled.

kamalle dabboussy I didn’t have an objection to him. I had an objection to their age.

livia albeck-ripka

Kamalle says, no way. She kind of accepts it. And she asks him again and again and again. And finally, Kamalle relinquishes. He says, O.K. Who am I to stand in the way of this?

kamalle dabboussy She wanted a family. And she wanted children. And that’s really what her want was. So I just made sure that that was her choice, not that she was being bullied into it, basically. That’s what it was, really making sure with her, and that was her choice. And, yeah, that was the next phase of her life. And I was very happy for her. I had hoped that she had remained close to me. But circumstances were that she wasn’t going to stay close to me that long after that.

livia albeck-ripka

After Mariam marries Khaled, she moves in with him to a little granny flat at the back of his parents’ home. They eventually have a baby. And Kamalle starts noticing Mariam changing. It’s nothing extreme at first. It just seems to him that they’re adopting the views of Khaled’s family, becoming a little more conservative, praying more often. But it’s when Mariam puts on the scarf —

kamalle dabboussy Which, in itself, is not — it’s not a bad thing. It’s just she’d decided to wear the scarf, where up until that stage, no one in our family wears a scarf. So it was a change.

livia albeck-ripka

— that he has questions.

kamalle dabboussy And I, you know, I didn’t take the first answer she gave to me. I pushed and pushed till a point that I was satisfied. livia albeck-ripka What was that first answer? kamalle dabboussy She just said, I did it myself. No one’s told me to do this. And I just, again, prodded and prodded, and tried to make her see that sometimes, the — you could be — there could be a suggestion made. And you’ve not realized that you’re pushed into that corner. And she felt, no, that she was quite — she felt that she was making the decision herself.

livia albeck-ripka

And eventually, he accepts it, because he believes it’s her choice. Then they all go on this extended family trip. It’s really fun and exciting. Khaled’s never been overseas before. He and Mariam have this new baby girl. And they go to Malaysia. And then they go to Dubai. And —

kamalle dabboussy He was fun-loving. He was out and about. We went exploring. We did a safari tour together.

livia albeck-ripka

It’s all really good. But Kamalle does notice Khaled drawing a little bit away from him. And he tries to talk to him. He says that Khaled, who he calls K., was doing all these extra prayers. Kamalle kind of questions it. But K. won’t engage with him. There’s this block.

kamalle dabboussy And so I thought to myself, O.K., I need to do a bit more work on this one, gently, rather than trying to — you know, two ways to break a stone — you know, get a sledgehammer and break it, or a drop of water slowly to break it open. I wanted to take the drop of water approach, let it break it up, and see if I can get some conversations and start challenging some of those thoughts.

livia albeck-ripka

So Kamalle has to get back to Australia for work. He leaves his daughter and his son-in-law in Dubai. And they go on to Lebanon. And they’re supposed to go on from there to Greece and then come home to Australia. But while they’re in Lebanon, Khaled suggests a trip to Turkey. Kamalle doesn’t really read too much into this. Turkey is a beautiful country, a beautiful place to visit. But then communications started to dissipate. And then it kind of goes quiet for a couple of weeks. And then, there’s a knock on his door. It was the police. They told him, your daughter is in Syria.

kamalle dabboussy Oh, I was in disbelief. I said, no, that couldn’t be the case. I — it was just disbelief. I just didn’t believe it to be true.

livia albeck-ripka

Kamalle really starts to worry. He starts trying to call his contacts. He starts trying to find Mariam, and he can’t.

[music]

livia albeck-ripka

And a month goes by before he does. Some text messages, some phone calls start to come in from Mariam. She says, I’m safe. She doesn’t tell her father where she is. And she says, don’t do anything stupid.

kamalle dabboussy I really refused for it to be true until Mariam had said to me, saying that, Dad, I thought you might have realized what had happened to me. And I don’t want you to do anything risky to yourself. Just stay put, basically, is what she said to me. And so that was actually the real moment that I knew that’s where she was.

livia albeck-ripka

She was with ISIS.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Livia, this would have been 2015, so the year after ISIS declared the caliphate and started to call on Muslims around the world to join them there. In these early days, what’s Kamalle’s understanding of Mariam’s role in ISIS? Did he think that she might be a combatant? Did he think she was kind of a passive supporter, who was suddenly in the midst of these true believers? I mean, what was his sense of this?

livia albeck-ripka

He didn’t know. He was sort of surviving on this drip feed of information that was coming to him via sporadic texts and calls. Sometimes he didn’t even know if the text messages were from Mariam herself. Or she would be on a call. And she’d say, Dad, don’t talk. I’ll talk. And it was clear to him that somebody was watching her and controlling her. And so he really — he doesn’t know. But he does have doubts.

kamalle dabboussy There was a small period of time, of course, you doubt the situation. You doubt everything that you know. And you re-evaluate everything that you know. And like most people, I suppose you’ve got different options in your head and different scenarios in your head. And you’re trying to figure out what’s right and what’s not right. livia albeck-ripka Did it seem like something Mariam would be capable of doing? kamalle dabboussy No, it wasn’t something that Mariam was capable of doing. But to say I never thought that could be a possibility? I thought about it. There was a period of time I thought, maybe she chose to go. livia albeck-ripka How would that have made you feel as a father? kamalle dabboussy Very disappointed. Very, very disappointed. Quite shocked, actually, knowing everything we’ve done together, and everything we’ve grown up together, and everything that she knew that I believed in, and what I thought she believed in, I would’ve been really shocked. I — yeah.

livia albeck-ripka

Once they had made initial contact, Kamalle and Mariam kept talking as much as they could, given the censorship, all of the monitored communication. And it’s some time after this that Kamalle learns that Khaled has been killed. And here and there, Mariam starts to suggest that she no longer wants to be there. Kamalle said she would sneak away without any guards and text Kamalle a few words. During one of these private moments, she told him, I was forced. And finally, she tells Kamalle, she’s going to make a break for it.

[music]

kamalle dabboussy My mind — because in some of the discussions that we had backwards and forwards by text, which led me to believe that she’d intimated that she needed to move, which was sort of — I got from her an idea that she needed to move out of where she was.

livia albeck-ripka

After that, Kamalle didn’t hear from her for 19 months, not a word.

kamalle dabboussy And it was absolutely an awful time in my life. I didn’t know whether she was alive or dead. I didn’t know whether she had made it safe. I didn’t know the condition of the kids. I, you know, went into a depression. I sought medical help. I sought professional help as the days and the months passed. And I had started to think towards the end of that period of time that she may have succumbed, that actually she may never be coming home. And then —

livia albeck-ripka

One day he goes into his bedroom. And he looks at his phone.

kamalle dabboussy And I’m looking at my phone. And there were these several messages. Baba, it’s me. You know, Dad, it’s me. Dad, it’s me. Call me. Call me. And I called the phone, and it was her voice. And literally, I collapsed, just to know that she was alive, and she was O.K. And that she could tell me what had happened to her. She told me that there’s another child. livia albeck-ripka And what happened next? kamalle dabboussy Well, then she said to me, Dad, if it was difficult before with two kids, it’s now even more difficult with three kids. I’m not going to try and make a break for it until there’s absolute safety, and things are going to happen. So she just —

livia albeck-ripka

He says she tells him it’s too dangerous to try again. But by 2018, ISIS is under siege. And in the months that have passed, they’re down to virtually no territory at all. And the bombing is intensifying. Mariam says her second husband is also killed. And then she’s forced into a third marriage.

kamalle dabboussy But that third marriage wasn’t as dramatic as the second marriage, if I could put it that way. I think he wasn’t a fighter, by the accounts. He was working in the hospital. I was told that he was actually a bit more supportive with her.

livia albeck-ripka

Some time after her third husband is captured, Kamalle gets advice that Mariam should surrender to Kurdish forces, who have been key allies to the U.S. in this fight against ISIS, and who hold territory in northeastern Syria. And then in early 2019, she contacts her father. And she lets him know she’s ended up in the Al Hol camp, where the families of ISIS fighters are being held, which is where she meets the other Australian women. They begin to forge friendships with one another. They kind of connect their tents up to protect themselves from the more radicalized women, who have been known to beat and even mutilate other women in the camp who they perceive to be nonbelievers. And then Mariam thinks to herself, hey, we should get our parents to talk to one another. And so she texts her dad and says, you and the other family members need to talk to one another. You need to get us out of here.

[music]

livia albeck-ripka

So Kamalle starts making contact with the family members of these women. And this strange club starts to form. For so long — for years, in most cases — these families have been keeping a secret that their sisters, their daughters are in Syria. And suddenly, they have a forum where they can connect with one another, and talk about how hard it’s been, and also begin to organize and discuss how they might get them out. They’re having meetings. They’re writing letters to politicians. They’re stressing to government that if they’re to get these women and children out, now is the time to do it. The Kurds are running the camp. Things are relatively stable. But the families sense that this isn’t going to last for that long. And it’s at this time that Kamalle is also planning a trip to Syria. He thinks, well, even if he can’t get his daughter out, he wants to see her. And it’s also an opportunity to make contact with the Kurds and the Americans to try to figure out the logistics of what it might look like to get her and the other women and children out. So earlier this year, he goes. He visits her in the Al-Hol camp.

kamalle dabboussy Well, whatever you heard about the camp scene, it was different. This was summer. It was 50-degree heat that we were facing.

livia albeck-ripka

It is 50 degrees Celsius, or more than 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

kamalle dabboussy And you looked out. And there was not a green thing in sight, not a tree, not grass. All it was was rocks. And there were these tents sitting on top of these rocks. And it really felt like a moonscape, a dusty moonscape. And it was just so hot that just getting some water to the camp was difficult. Going to get water and bringing it back was difficult. livia albeck-ripka So describe to me this first moment that you see Mariam. How does she look? How does she react to you? kamalle dabboussy So we could see the car pull up. We could see them getting out of the car. We could see them running towards us. And Mariam was carrying the youngest one in her hands. And she just hugged me. And she was excited to — you know, was very excited, breathing very heavy. And I kept telling her, just breathe. Just relax. I’m here. But, you know, she just kept saying, I can’t believe you’re here. I can’t believe that you’re here. I can’t believe you made it. I can’t believe you made it. And she just turned around and said, I’m broken. I need my dad. I need my dad. livia albeck-ripka So tell me about the moment that she actually lifted the niqab off her face and you saw her. kamalle dabboussy [SNIFFLING] Well, she — she’d lifted — I — I’d said to her, let me see you. Let me see you. And then she’d lift the niqab off her face, just privately. And I was shocked with how much weight she’d lost. I was shocked with how pale her skin was. But, no, I couldn’t show any of that, of course. And I just saw her. And then she’d put her niqaab back down. She wouldn’t leave it up for very long. And then I asked her about the story. And then I, you know, because this had been such a big issue to me for so long. I said, tell me, what happened? How did you get here?

[music]

livia albeck-ripka

Mariam then takes Kamalle to see the camp. But after only a few hours, he has to leave. They hug each other goodbye. Kamalle is trying to stay strong for his daughter and is grappling with the fact that he’s physically there with her, and he can’t take her with him. The Australian government hasn’t made up its mind what to do with Mariam and the other women and children. So he goes home, alone. So after that visit, Kamalle returns to Sydney. He’s driving from Sydney to Melbourne. It’s about a 10-hour drive. And he’s going to Melbourne to meet with some family members of the women and children. He’s on the road, and he gets a call. It’s a journalist who tells him, did you see Trump’s tweet? The U.S. has just given Turkey permission to cross the border. It dawns on Kamalle in this moment that everything they had been pressing the government for for months, their worst fears, could come true, that a Turkish incursion would sow instability in the region, which could ultimately cost the lives of his daughter and his grandchildren. And he knows this window to get them out is suddenly growing very, very short. So he pulls over on the side of the road, and he weeps.

[music]

kamalle dabboussy It’s shifting hour by hour. The Syrian forces coming into that space, I don’t know what it means for everyone. I really don’t know what it means for everyone. So I’m going to try — sorry, even though it’s 3 o’clock in the morning there, try and ring through — livia albeck-ripka To Mariam? Would you mind putting it on speaker? [phone ringing] kamalle dabboussy Hello? Hello? O.K.

[music]

kamalle dabboussy O.K., sorry. It’s just not letting me get through. Some — yeah.

michael barbaro

Tomorrow, Part 2 of Kamalle’s story. We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (john bercow) Order. Order. archived recording The ayes to the right, 322. The nos to the left, 306. [CHEERS]

michael barbaro

Parliament has rejected an agreement between Prime Minister Boris Johnson and the European Union for Britain to leave the E.U. by the end of October, likely requiring yet another delay in the Brexit process, possibly until January. Despite skepticism of the agreement, Johnson had hoped that enough lawmakers fed up with previous delays would approve it over the weekend.

archived recording [YELLING]

michael barbaro

As Parliament voted, an estimated 1 million people demonstrated against Brexit on the streets of downtown London, arguing for a new referendum to keep Britain in the E.U.

archived recording (crowd) Brexit! archived recording (speaker) When do we want it? archived recording (crowd) Never! archived recording (speaker) What do we want? archived recording (crowd) Brexit! archived recording (speaker) When do we want it? archived recording (crowd) Never!

michael barbaro

And President Trump has reversed course on his decision to hold the next G7 summit of world leaders at his own resort in Florida, which both Democrats and Republicans had called an illegal act of self-dealing by the president.

archived recording (mick mulvaney) He was honestly surprised at the level of pushback. At the end of the day, you know, he still considers himself to be in the hospitality business. And he saw an opportunity to take the biggest leaders from around the world. And he wanted to put on the absolute best show, the best visit that he possibly could. And he was very —

michael barbaro

In a tweet over the weekend, Trump cited the criticism, and said he would immediately begin searching for an alternate location.

archived recording (mick mulvaney) I think it’s the right decision to change. We’ll have to find someplace else. And my guess is we’ll find someplace else that the media won’t like, either, for another reason. archived recording I just have to pick up —

michael barbaro