Cody Rhodes has said it himself: he went from undesirable in WWE to undeniable in the greater world of professional wrestling.

Undesirable to some, anyway. A nine-year main roster career in WWE saw Cody build plenty of equity with the fans that appreciated his ability and longed for that talent to manifest into something more worthwhile than the suppressed Stardust.

WWE The legendary Dusty Rhodes, Dustin Rhodes (Goldust) and Cody Rhodes in WWE

He is the son of the legendary American Dream Dusty Rhodes. He is the brother of the also legendary Goldust, Dustin Rhodes. But he was always more than that, too.

Now he’s an executive vice-president and performer All Elite Wrestling, a blossoming promotion approaching its one-year anniversary. He hit the independent scene with a list and ended up becoming a core part of The Elite that would, with Tony Khan’s backing, create the first serious alternative to WWE globally in nearly 20 years.

That’s the short version of that story, too. talkSPORT was fortunate enough to speak to the American Nightmare as 2019 winds down to talk all things AEW, Wednesday Night Wars and a lot more.

Hi Cody, let’s get straight to it – AEW in the UK! When will you guys make it over here and what details can you share on that? Both Tony Khan and The Young Bucks have told us there was tentative plans for a pay-per-view called ‘Royal Flush’ before Khan nixed it because of the name!

So, Royal Flush was a real thing and we all actually thought it was a really good name until we said it multiple times and we realised it was a terrible name. Tony [Khan] was one of the first to spot that. But, with the UK and our representation with ITV and FITE, and the fact that the fanbase is really thriving and hungry. I mean, the UK independent scene got hot before the American independent scene and so many of us imports were going over there to do shows like I did with What Culture Pro Wrestling. I would say 100 percent that AEW is coming to the UK in 2020. I can’t be sure if we’re coming for Dynamite, a pay-per-view or a rare live event tour, but everyone is on-board with us coming in 2020 and if I’m incorrect with that statement, I will give you $500. No, I don’t know [laughs].

AEW Cody Rhodes defeated his brother Dustin Rhodes at Double or Nothing, AEW’s first PPV

100 percent, you can hold us to it. We are coming to the UK in 2020 and we’ve got some tentative dates circled, but it’s a matter of where you’re going to hit as well. Are you going to hit as many markets as you can possibly hit or are you just going to do London and Manchester, what’s it going to be? But, for sure, in 2020 we’ll be live over there with AEW.

That’s great news. If it was on pay-per-view, what is AEW’s schedule going to be like with that? Your next one is in February so it seems like you’d have four a year, is there any hope the UK could nab one of those slots annually?

We’re looking at four major pay-per-views a year. But, also, we’re looking at some streaming shows as well, like streaming specials. But also, you’ve got Full Gear, you have Revolution, you have Double or Nothing and you have All Out. Double or Nothing and All Out are probably going to be staples in the areas that they originated from [Las Vegas and Chicago respectively], but Revolution and Full Gear seem more open in terms of travelling. So the thought of having an AEW pay-per-view in the UK is very, very tempting. It’s maybe more tempting for me than any of the others because I definitely spent a lot of time wrestling in the UK when I left WWE.

Plus, I loved every WWE UK tour I did and I have this deep, longing affinity for SummerSlam ’92. I feel like even with Insurrextion and some of the other pay-per-views they did, the mega event was never reached like it was reached there. I feel like everything was done right, there was hometown representation, the brand was equally represented. So I don’t think it’s unlikely that in the future the UK gets a pay-per-view, and, I will say, everything that we’ve done has been streamed. We joke about AEW Dark, but nothing is dark. So even if we were to do those live streaming specials – and I’m not sure we’re doing those – we’d be able to see them somewhere.

Switching gears to you personally, how have you found being Cody the Booker and Cody the Performer? You must have learned a lot from your time pitching on the other side of the fence in WWE to now where you’re getting pitched to?

I think that you just have to have really good time management, otherwise you find yourself kind of giving up. You’ve inherited all these men and women on the roster; me, Matt [Jackson], Nick [Jackson], Tony [Khan] and Kenny [Omega]. They all need to be heard and they need to be heard with an open heart and an open mind even if you’ve heard six pitches that morning already, because I’ve been on the end of making the pitch. So I think that’s one of the beautiful things about being a pro wrestler who’s running a wrestling company is, we know the struggle, the journey.

AEW Cody Rhodes at Double or Nothing ‘smashing the throne’

And when I say time management, it’s like OK, when do I literally throw my tights on and lace or zip my boots up? When do I smell blood in the water and start circulating as a performer and a competitor? That’s also the beauty of having Matt, Nick and Kenny. When you’re about to go out there and the red light is about to go on, someone else can take that headset and stand there and fill in. We fill in for each other. I’ve been lucky to know what to do in that regard because I knew what my father did, but also, I got to see what people in WWE did who were on both sides of the coin, too. I’ve been able to take that education and make it work for me.

How does Tony Khan fit into that dynamic? Fulham are struggling here in England. he’s also got the Jacksonville Jaguars on his plate, how does he contribute to AEW and focus on all his ventures?

It’s been really great. Tony is the final verdict on everything. He doesn’t have to be though, because so much of what we’re doing we’ve planned eight months to a year out. A lot of it, we can just execute what we’ve got planned. He has the final say, he’s the owner. He’s the founder, it’s his money. But one of the most just amazing things about Tony is that he is a deeply, deeply connected fan. We had a marketing meeting with the sales team at Turner where we’re talking about ads and things of that nature and he told them that he would know if it was not genuine because he is the wrestling consumer.

He always wants to take care of the wrestling consumer. There have been some people that are critical of the idea like ‘why are they so invested in catering to hardcore fans and the die-hard super fans?’ And honestly, I can only ask, why wouldn’t we be? Of course we should be! These people have ridden along for, in some cases, decades and wrestling has been apart of their lives and their family. That’s a great place to start to know if you’re checking the right boxes.

Twitter @codyrhodes Cody Rhodes and Tony Khan stand alongside AEW producer, Dean Malenko (middle)

Tony is really wonderful in the creative process and at the go-position, because his math genius that none of us have helps a great deal in timing out the show. I’ve really just been in awe of his ability to juggle so many things and still be a good person and still have a good time.

What do you make of the ratings war, per se? Fans on Twitter seem to live and die by those numbers every single week and I saw you address them when AEW finally lost for the ratings for the first time. How much do the ratings war matter internally?

Obviously the ratings… they almost matter more to the respective brands individually. Warner Media and TNT, they’re looking at the ratings and the demographic, that P1 demo and how you’re doing there and then I’m assuming USA are doing the same for NXT, it’s more of the fans that put them in contrast to each other. ‘Well they did this and they did this’. If you look at the data, there’s not nearly as much crossover as you would think. Not so much like the ’90s where you were turning the channel, they both have dedicated fanbases.

You’ve got to look at minute-by-minutes – which are a scary thing to look at, it’s like baseball but it’s the way to go – if you look at those minute-by-minutes, you can see trends. And even after eight weeks or so, you can see some trends like ‘Ok, this person they really seem to like’ or ‘they really seem to like the action here’ or ‘they like it when this person has the mic.’ So you want to play to your strengths and you also want to adjust your long-form plan, but not adjust it drastically where you become something other than yourself.

The biggest takeaway from all of it is for those folks outside, that kind of critical – I don’t know if hater is the right word – but those folks who will say like ‘Oh, wrestling is not that popular’ – I’m telling you, when you look at two shows that are existing on Wednesday nights, that audience combined is massive for current core-cutting generation television, pro wrestling is definitely the most popular that it has been in years and I’m incredibly happy about that. But we just got to look at our minute-by-minutes and by honest with each other as performers on our execution.

How much attention are you guys paying to what happens over on NXT? I understand you’ll be fully focused on your own show, but I imagine you’re well aware of what happens over on NXT too?

We’re aware [of what NXT do] more because we have friends in both locker rooms. We diligently make sure that we don’t have it on the monitor in go-position because, again, we’ve got to be more aware of the audience that’s watching on TNT. There’s a difference between playing to the audience strategically that’s flipping channels from, perhaps, TNT to USA. We’re aware of it, we’ve got so many friends in the locker room and I have a deep-rooted connection to NXT because my dad helped change it from the developmental to more of a fully-fledged out brand with his contributions there. So I have nothing but respect for what they’re doing, I just think we’re doing a drastically different show.

AEW Jon Moxley and Cody Rhodes both used to wrestle for WWE, but have been reborn in AEW

It’s more something you look at it [NXT] after the fact and it’s like ‘what did they do this week’ and whatnot. I’d think they’d be the same, but you’d be surprised how we’re very much just focused on our show. If we got all like ‘lets find out what they’re doing,’ that would be really easy to do, but it wouldn’t be very true to what we’ve been trying to do all along. We have Jon Moxley, Chris Jericho, Kenny Omega, PAC, myself, Darby Allin, Kris Statlander and just the talent that I’m naming now, my responsibility is to them and to making sure they beam across the television sets appropriately.

Luke Harper, or Brodie Lee now I should say, just left WWE. He seems to be a hand that is universally admired in the industry and could have done more in WWE. Is that someone you look at and takes your interest?

I mean, he has what I identify as ‘Bam Bam quality’ as far as he’s a big man who is incredibly agile. I got to mix it up with him and the Wyatt Family a little when it was the Rhodes Brothers versus the Wyatts. He’s very much a modern wrestler and he’ll flourish whatever decision he makes. He would be great as part of AEW and when you hear that he’s asked for his release or he’s left, that’s a name you definitely think about and the next steps, for sure. So I think he’s going to flourish with what he does next, he’s very special.

Luke Harper during his time on SmackDown Live

And Marty Scurll? I feel like I have to ask you about this or I wouldn’t be doing my job! We know he’s still a close friend of The Elite and is finishing up with Ring of Honor. He’s shown up in NWA now; are AEW actively trying to sign The Villain?

Marty is going to do what Marty is going to do, that’s the best way I can put it. I love Marty Scurll. And the Bucks love him, Kenny loves him and I’m sure Tony loves him. He’s a magnetic personality, he sells a lot of merchandise and he’s a lot of fun in the ring. He’s also an incredibly hard worker, too. He has the work ethic we look for. But, that’s the only way I know how to put it. Anything he does in the next few weeks or months, I wouldn’t look at as permanent for him. He’s very much testing the waters here and there and that’s pretty much all I can say as far as Marty goes. I mean, he’s not just a friend of The Elite, he’s a member of The Elite. The best way to put it is Marty is going to do what Marty is going to do.

WhatCulture Cody Rhodes and Marty Scurrl facing off in WhatCulture Pro Wrestling

Finally, I have to say as a fan, I really thought you should have won the Money in the Bank in 2013 when Damien Sandow did. It really felt like your time to me and the crowd was really into it. What happened there? Did WWE ever discuss you winning that?

I’m so far removed now I can give you a little bit of detail on this and I hold no grudges and I’m not sour over it, but, the two years prior to that Money in the Bank [2013], I was told I was winning Money in the Bank. This is two years in a row. Two years in a row I was told in advance I was winning Money in the Bank. And both times, it changed on the day. On the actual day. So, if you guys ever wonder why I get a little spicy now and then – that’s a life-changing decision that you’re prepared for that then changes. You have to have very thick skin in wrestling and sometimes, mines not that thick.

However, when it came to the Philadelphia match with [Damien] Sandow, that is my favourite Money in the Bank I was ever apart of, because I was never discussed as the one winning the match, I was always discussed as the story being about me losing versus about me winning, and that made me feel way better than anything that happened the two years prior. It is still probably my favourite match of all-time that I’ve ever had, because it required unique individuals who perhaps didn’t want to, but did because they’re professionals, to carve it out in a way that made it look like it was my time. Because all the organic, real factors would point to the fact that it was [my time].

WWE Money in the Bank never quite happened for Cody Rhodes in WWE