Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 9, 2011

I for one would like to see games provide protagonists who don't fall into the heteronormative scale of "straight male" to "straight female."?

Mattie Brice

Dec 9, 2011

I curious to actually watch for a little bit, because I'm actually in a position of having my identity as a part of my platform (though, apparently, different people have different ideas on what it is depending on what they've read of mine). But I don't see these discussions happen outside the confines of "safe" places, typically Feminist staked spaces. I guess I'd like to know how comfortable you are using that word to describe yourself when it's a very loaded word for others to see/hear.

Ian: You're going to have to dig in your heels a little deeper than that ;)?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 9, 2011

So it seems to me that the core issue in "queering" any aspect of games or computing generally is that the mechanics are based on a programming binary, perhaps the most famous of 0/1, on/off, yes/no, male/female, and so on. Obviously there are ways around this with enough work, but it's a level of reification even beyond that in the non-computed world.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 9, 2011

I don't usually talk about being queer in meatspace, largely because I'm uncomfortable communicating any ideas whatsoever to others about my sexuality. Online it just feels like less of an issue, particularly because I can control what people see of me to a certain extent. But even with that freedom it took me until earlier this year to actually realize that my discomfort about sex wasn't some hypocritical prudishness (which failed to turn up in any other venue) but that I just didn't want it. Recognizing my own asexuality really had me start to look at how sexuality is treated in games in a different way.

On the one hand, Americans are so alternately puritanical about and obsessed with sex that it's actually very easy for me to find games that DON'T feature sex or romance. On the other hand, it's the ones that do feature relationships that become frustrating. I have some big issues with Mass Effect, for instance, and how overtly focused on the physical act it is. Only Garrus's romance made it seem like a) sex was not an integral part of the relationship and b) the writing seemed actually INTERESTED in building a RELATIONSHIP, instead of facilitating a physical act. But that probably merits a full article somewhere. "How An Asexual Navigates a Dating Game." :P?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 9, 2011

Digging my heels a little deeper than before. Let's see—where to start?

Cultural conditioning has encouraged me to think of myself as a "straight male" for a long time, and I'm undeniably attracted to the feminine physique, but I've feelings that I would describe as crushes on guys (David Boreanaz, Joseph Gordon Levitt) and, as you would expect, the male body honestly doesn't turn me off. I wouldn't describe myself as "gay" because it's a label I don't really relate to.

I also notice a kind of subtle hostility towards homosexuality—which usually comes in the form of 'jokes', so I feel uncomfortable with 'coming out' publicly, as it were (not that I think it's necessary to do so, but if I were to, I'm aware of the hostility I'd face). Many less open-minded people (whom I'm sure are good people, deep down inside) get... weird, when they discover you aren't "straight", and defy their expectations.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 9, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser Yeah, we humans are very fond of binaries, and it's a frame of reference so deeply rooted in our socialization almost on a global scale that you practically need to adopt an academic hat just to break away from it (which creates other problems re: how others respond to your arguments).

Programmatically, the question becomes (as far as I see it): how do we model a non-binary like sexuality in games? +Julian Williams has shared with me a bit about XCOM's progressive scaling approach but I wonder if that isn't just further painting us into a corner by continuing to try to map sexuality mathematically.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 9, 2011

Well, beyond that, it's how you code outside of binaries. Both implementation and conception are intertwined. So first you convince the game designer that allow various forms of gender in their game for example, sure, but at some point the queering process has to stop being programmed and start being released.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 9, 2011

But that's kind of good, in a way. If we accept that games can't be perfectly queerable (enqueerified?), we can more easily develop concrete ideas of what "good" would look like.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

Perhaps it could be something procedural, with characters not defined by their biology—"male" or "female"—but rather by their interests in other characters. How we react (internally) to the world and environment around is a reflection of who we are, perhaps.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

I think that these sort of labels, being gay, bi, asexual, transgender, isn't merely descriptive of a fact in your identity. I mentioned a couple weeks ago about someone interpreting results of a study they did on "straight men who have sex with other straight men." And it makes sense because being straight or gay has less to do with who you're sleeping with and more what your position in society is. Being called gay is an insult because it means you're something undesirable, not because it's a technical inaccuracy.

+Rowan Kaiser How are we using Queer here? Unless I'm mistaken, being Queer is having an identity that isn't hegemonic. As well, I'm not sure why we have to start at the coding level for any reason? I don't know enough about programming to extrapolate if the gendered aspects of design reach down to binary coding, but a large part of what's the "issue" is in the representation that doesn't rely on binary knowledge.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

Some games have that. The Sims is a good example, or at least, The Sims 1 was - your characters made friends, and when friendship got to 80, they either fell in love or they didn't, regardless of gender.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

I'm using queer in the sense of identity that isn't constrained by definites (and that can easily go beyond sexuality and gender, but it's easiest to stay there).?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser Well, as you alluded to, the very idea of queering rests upon the idea that there is a normative path being deviated from. Arranging the player's relationship to their avatar or character's attributes differently could significantly de-normalize the normative.

But it's more than just player behavior with the system. It's also the culture of acceptable versus unacceptable attitudes the developers create, largely through the choices they afford players but also through story, art design, etc. I can play an asexual Commander Shepard, but I can't play an asexual Kratos. And I can play a bisexual or lesbian femShep, but a gay male Shepard is a systemic impossibility within the ME1/ME2 universe.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Kris Ligman That tells me Bioware is less accepting of gay males than it is of bisexual or lesbian females. As if it didn't somehow fit their 'vision' of what the ideal Shepard could be.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong That's basically the line we've been given, yeah. Fortunately that appears to have changed with ME3, but the fact remains-- the argument that "you can be a gay mShep, but no one will return your feelings" doesn't work when you can't even EXPRESS the sexuality you have in mind for your character.?

Ben Abraham

Dec 10, 2011

Hello. You rang??

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong It would be interesting to have a game like that, because you'd have to go through at least some sort of preliminary phase (or maybe nothing at all) for the game to know how to adapt to you. Obviously we'd need need to separate two things: how others see you and how you see yourself. I may identify whatever I want, but if someone sees a hot mess of gender confusion, they aren't going to act towards me like how I identify (and believe me, I've been in the position).

The awesome this could do would really tie in ludic-ly and technologically; one reason to play video games over board games is because the computer has the ability to adapt and react to the player. Instead of assigning the player a sexuality, they merely have their impulses measured. You never seem to pick the paths to sex, then let the NPCs adapt to that. No one will assume your sexuality and allow your actions to speak for themselves.

I am to make some fusion of a dating sim eventually, and I want NPCs who try out different sexualities and come to terms with it. But I also think this allows the player to actually play. To be themselves and at the same time try out something else that's unfamiliar to them.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Tiffany Nevin I think that's exactly where that conversation would lead to... The Asari are there to fulfill heteronormative fantasies, not allow women to be bisexual or lesbians.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Tiffany Nevin I think public awareness of gay men is much better than how much of it makes it across to our mass media, a distinction I'd like to maintain. The possibility of a gay (or gasp, BI) man seems much more threatening than bi/lesbian women (who clearly just need the right man, amirite), so the solution in fiction is usually one of erasure. See also: erasure of trans and non-white characters.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice New Vegas seems to have done it the right way, with the perks "Lady Killer" and "Confirmed Bachelor" (available for both male and female, and you could take them both instead of just one, so it wasn't a binary choice) you could flirt with members of both sexes.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong It's in the right direction, yes, prompting affirmation of sexuality once you "earn" it maybe? It's still in the gender binary and reinforces couple culture, but it's going somewhere. But that's something inherent in Bethesda games.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

Bioware's very concept of relationships is anti-queer. This is the binary I was talking about manifesting both culturally and through programming. You have an option to romance certain characters. Follow that path in the right way at the right time, and you consummate the relationship with that one person, which eliminates the others. I hate the whole "choose-your-own-adventure" aspect of it. It's a bunch of switches, 1s and 0s. Relationships are messy, but Bioware's are perfectly balanced to the point where I don't feel like they represent sexuality.

That said, obviously if they're going that route, they could be better in terms of certain identities, but they're still in binaries even in those terms - gay male for gay male, straight female for straight male, etc.

The only interesting exception is Liara, both for the Asari omni-sexuality and especially for her actual, real relationship interactions in the Shadow Broker DLC.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

New Vegas isn't Bethesda, it's Obsidian. That's an important distinction - they did Planescape Torment and KOTOR 2, which always had more interesting characterization and relationships than the Baldur's Gate and KOTOR 1 they sprung from.

Although that particular perk worked that way in Fallout 3, which was Bethesda.?

Patricia Hernandez

Dec 10, 2011

Random chip in: I hate how I never feel comfortable playing as a woman in any game. None at all. It never feels natural. I can't even explain why. And if I bite that bullet anyway, it's doubly weird trying to romance other women, because they either don't reciprocate, or the relationship has been written for a male. .....so I play nearly EVERYthing as a male, since that feels like the "right" thing to do, the comfortable thing.

I also find it a tad annoying to be locked into monogamy most of the time. I can understand if it's written that certain characters have preferences, but not when those preferences err on the side of heteronormative, always.

Options are good. Easy to get left out, it seems, though...?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser Mass Effect is like that, yes, but not so much Dragon Age until you get to asexuality/polyamory issues. But the thing is BioWare can easily set things to variables. I've done it in RPG Maker, so I know they can too. I definitely see how binary programming reinforces ideas of unqueer design, though that would be confirmation bias on the part of the programmer rather than the programming. Since variables are so easy to use, I don't see how designers can't use them instead of binary when it comes to relationships.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Patricia Hernandez Two words: Male Gaze. I felt like FemShep was strange in ME1, but in ME2, she was better, and I think this was an acknowledgement of Hale's voice acting. Literally everything doesn't seem right because all the ways women act in games have to first fit comfortably into how the hegemonic man views women. And that's hard to deconstruct, but I imagine it can happen.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

Rather than just turn this into yet another Mass Effect Relationship Discussion, I should make that a little broader. That's what I'm talking about in terms of binaries. It's yes/no answers for human behavior that in reality is almost always a "Well, what about this...?" And obviously that applies to almost all aspects of human relationships in games, but it's especially notable in games with romantic or sexual aspects.?

Patricia Hernandez

Dec 10, 2011

Interesting that games will accommodate themselves as you go to choices based on morality, and sometimes identity--when it comes to personality (DA2 is the prime example, and the only game I've ever seen do that), but never sexuality or gender. Those are rigid and set in stone and you either fit into what's there or you don't. Even the simplistic morality bars have more 'gray area' than that.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

I think I accidentally deleted my comment.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

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Yes, yes you did. But here it is:

+Ian Miles Cheong Warning: I'm about to spoil parts of Planescape: Torment. If you haven't played it, you need to.

One game of note is the aforementioned Planescape: Torment, which +Rowan Kaiser referenced just now. You played the role of the Nameless One, a character who is biologically male, who has a relationship with a dead spirit (Deionerra) which he can't even remember. To an extent, you could flirt with the Tiefling rogue Annah—who would, at the end of the game, be willing to die for you. The most interesting relationships in that game, however, were with Ignus, the Burning Man, and Fall-from-Grace, a chaste Succubus.

First with Ignus, one of your past incarnations had what I assume was a mentor-student (but likely gay) relationship with him. It was abusive, and he both loves you and hates you for what you did to him. He is literally burning with obsession towards you.

The relationship with Fall-from-Grace is even more interesting. She is asexually female. Your relationship with her is, to many degrees more meaningful and complicated than with Annah. You could love her and romance her on a purely intellectual, and non-sexual level.

I've yet to see any of these relationships followed on in any other game, much less replicated to any meaningful degree.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Tiffany Nevin +Patricia Hernandez Ex-act-ly. Charles Stross does this thing in his "Rule 34" novel (which is not as porny as it sounds; it's more about vice crime) where poly rights become the next front line after LGBTIQ acceptance has grown more normalized. One character rants about polyphobia from both the legal and social end of things, and it really does a good job of confronting our ingrained preconceptions about some things.

AFAIK Fable III lets you be poly, including multiple marriages and households, but it's stigmatized pretty heavily. :P Definitely cast as the player leading a double life and being unfaithful, rather than actually polyamorous.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice Thank you so much. I was about to cry if I had to rewrite the whole thing.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong "chaste Succubus"

...Thanks for reminding me I promised +Rowan Kaiser I'd finish Torment sometime.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Kris Ligman I think it's because Fable 3 (Which I have yet to play) assumes that the other characters involved in the poly relationship are unaware of the set up. There's a lot of assumptions being leveled by Lionhead there.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

And in terms of KOTOR 2, while I don't recall the romantic relationships a whole lot, the villain of the piece is actually trying to destroy the ultimate in magical binary non-queerness, Star Wars' "Force". I wish I could have joined her at the end.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser Kreia is easily one of the better and more complicated "villains" in video games ever written. Likewise, I wish I could have joined her.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

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Ultimately, queering romance is what will make in-game relationships a lot more believable. Because what happens when you leave behind stereotypes and conventions? The game has to PAY ATTENTION to the player and LET them experience, let them play. To see an experience an accumulation of qualities rather than a "do you fit in this choice or this choice?" Because then there's weight to romantic decisions; your character has a reason to love someone, and NPCs have a reason to love your character.?

Kris Ligman

from https://plus.google.com/112315431827220610982/posts

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong Pretty much. They can't cohabitate, even if they began as neighbors. Part of it I'd attribute to failings in the mechanics to account for NPCs having relationships with anyone or anything besides the player, but the result DOES end up being utter monogamy and assumptions of unfaithfulness.

I just remembered another thing that bugs me about playing out relationships in games: I'd routinely engage in the sexual part of the process because otherwise my relationship didn't "count" or couldn't proceed. Blah. This makes me want to reach Fall-from-Grace in Torment even more.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

Forgive me for butting in, but this is super interesting. Heretofore the discussion has been mostly about design or writing decisions within games; what do you (collectively) think about the influence of heteronormative pressures from "gamer culture," as a faction with economic influence through buying power?

cf. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6661775&lf=8?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

Sorry if that turns things a bit Marxist.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings I think it's a huge factor, and that is especially evident in Bioware's Mass Effect series of games. The Asari were quite obviously designed to appeal to the male gaze, and the lack of a homosexual male Shepard romance option could have been made because they didn't want to alienate anyone adverse to homosexual relationships. For obvious reasons, bisexual and lesbian relationships are much more 'acceptable' to the average neckbeard, who plays female characters with the reasoning that he "doesn't want to look at a man's ass all the time."?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings I think that's totally a huge part. I completely attribute the further de-queering of Mass Effect 2 to phobic responses from players and the media.

And more broadly I think it's impossible to overlook the extent to which heterosexual male pandering affects how games are designed and sold and, thus, what future projects then get greenlit.

But overall I think it's a cowardly, conservative response based on fears rather than market data, since you could never say a comparably financed and marketed game with more inclusive content resulted in FEWER sales. I mean, if those examples exist somewhere, I'd like to see them. :P?

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011

Not sure about the relevance, but this is one the reasons why Bully is one of my favorite games. It's not just that it has the main character just as willing to make out with the lads as with the ladies...it's that it's presented as completely normal and unremarkable. Both had the same game system rewards, too.

I remember how the religious right raised a big stink about that. Just made it that much better.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

So, as a matter of action needing to be taken, is it just a question of getting more queer-friendly writers who are supported by a queer-friendly studio? How much of a task is that??

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Craig Bamford I think that's the best way to go about it at first. At least, to make games spaces for everyone. However, I'd like to see games focus on sexuality issues rather than just say "Hey, nothing to see here!" overall.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings I would say it's more of a demand by the community overall as much as it is to get designers that are queer-friendly/minded. Because just being friendly doesn't give volition to do anything. If developers here "We won't stand for games that binary our relationships anymore" and no one buys them, then I think it would work.

But it would also mean supporting games that try but maybe fail sometimes. Dragon Age II wasn't perfect, but something tells me we won't see characters written like than anymore because of the overwhelming negative response and not enough people recognizing the good that happened. We have to make an environment that doesn't damn those who try and don't get it perfect.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice Do you see the current cisgendered, heteronormative gamer culture as an obstacle to that end??

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011

True enough. We're still at a point where games are only starting to get comfortable with exploring hetero relationships. Even then, the biggest experiment is undoubtedly Catherine, and I know people have had their issues there. (Though it's still one I want to play.)

I agree that games exploring sexuality in all its forms are something that needs to happen...but games just don't seem to be able to handle that kind of intense interpersonal relationship management yet. For all that things have moved forward, it's still blowing up orcs and space aliens a wee bit too much.?

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings, Activision has come out and said that they don't even want female leads for their games. Considering that everybody's trying to follow in their money-minting footsteps...?

Nick Lalone

Dec 10, 2011

No joking in this post or any i make here.

After giving a variety of talks and lectures on gender (as a caveat, I have not assembled anything on sexuality specifically) and games, there is one problem I consistently see. It is a remarkable problem that we face in the global markets but contorts the argument in a fascinating way.

While there are other ways to say this, I think this is the easiest to respond to. When discussing anything involving gender and video games, there is a disregard for the complexities of gender norms in countries not the United States (aka white, male, heteronormative, etc). Meaning, discussions begin with that as a norm and respond with that typical queer response.

Outside of games made for and by this market, the gender discussion changes in ways I do not think many are really knowledgeable enough to discuss (myself included).

Yet, we can point to examples of gender done correctly (maybe Nier, or Metal Gear Solid),hh or at least in a way that isn't like the examples you all have been outlining, that come from Japan. However, game designers and game makers often make games based on those examples even if they are not from their own culture. It makes its way into our sphere of culture as something else we can't combat the old ways. It is unfortunate.

So this is what I think about after I took my ambien?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Craig Bamford +Karl Parakenings Yep. Activision canceled True Crime Hong Kong or whatever it was because it featured a female protagonist and they didn't think gamers wanted that. It would've been a John Woo-style video game with a female cop as the lead character.

Worked for Mucky Foot Productions' Urban Chaos, which had a female cop as the lead, so I don't know why they didn't think it would work. Jerks.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong and fortunately Square-Enix picked it back up, although they don't have the True Crime name rights. DX:HR gave me a bit of faith in them as Western publishers, so hopefully they'll keep the protagonist. I've been wanting a decent female protagonist ever since Madison Paige was given creepy sexualized PTSD for no apparent reason in Heavy Rain. UFG is about eight blocks from where I'm sitting, so I hope it goes well.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings Well, that's not hard, I mean, if he didn't have hegemony, we wouldn't have this conversation ;)

+Craig Bamford Funny, I'm actually having an e-mail conversation about Catherine right now! I think it's a good starting point if we bring into perspective where gaming is at, but it's no excuse of how much it reinforces hegemony and stereotypes (which involve sexism and transphobia).

+Nick Lalone The conversation about American ethnocentrism is barely existent but worth a whooole other thread. I agree that we find our more "liberated" games from Japan, but conveniently forget how incredibly sexist, etc their society is as well.?

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011

Jade from BG&E is still the one that everybody points to, for good reason...and I just wish Ubisoft would stop dangling the sequel in front of everybody and just MAKE the stupid thing already.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

Speaking of interesting female protagonists, I'm interested in the upcoming game Amy from Lexis Numerique because it places you in the role of a female character who has to accompany an autistic girl through an apocalyptic environment.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

This might seem a little extreme, but maybe it'd work:

The Human Rights Campaign has a "buying guide," listing many popular retailers along with how they score on HRC's questionnaire of supporting equal rights for minority identities. If you wanted to, you could base a lot of your shopping decisions on how a company rated in treating their LGBT employees, or even better, actually donated to the HRC.

Why not have a buying guide for games? If Activision is going to say no to female leads, then they aren't getting my money. If BioWare is going to allow heterosexual-only romances but not homosexual-only, they aren't getting my money. Maybe could make an impact??

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice I would actually love to someday hear your perspective as a transwoman on how Catherine treats Erica. I was unsettled by how the other characters treated her, but I'm hesitant to say Atlus themselves are being transphobic.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong Whoa. Gonna glue my eye firmly to that one.

Forgive me for bringin this whole tangent up - I just figure that it's harder to find games that aren't problematic in terms of gender dynamics or heteronormativity than it is to say 'well, i didn't feel represented here', so the conversation naturally turns to 'what's next' for me. That's something that is really unclear, and I'm really interested in what the collected folks here think.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice That's an excellent idea. I'll include one in my current project, if nothing else.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice Seconding Karl. A buying guide would be an EXCELLENT idea. Maybe a feature for TBH??

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice I'd be happy to rehost it on Gameranx.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Kris Ligman I talked about her in context of their other trans* characters in that Naoto piece I did a while ago: http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=6088

What's to take away from that is the idea that this is under the male gaze. So while Atlus wasn't intending to be transphobic, the only way a trans* character fits comfortably in the male gaze is to be a gag joke. There is no exploration of their gender identity, there's only essentialism, and they have to fool everyone and make them feel uncomfortable. Erica was actually a cool character despite being treated by the men as weird and undesirable.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong As ever, I recommend caution when dealing with authorial intent. Maybe Bioware did or didn't make the asari the way they did because they thought the concept would appeal to bros. That almost doesn't matter to me, because what they ended up doing was creating an omni-sexual, mono-gendered aliens that could be treated remotely subjectively. I don't know of any queerer concept of a race in mass media science fiction, no matter how that door got opened.

Along those lines, who wants to talk Bayonetta? I know Denis was talking about writing about it from the perspective of Bayonetta-as-drag-queen. Is he on here? +Denis Farr Yeah, there we go.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings +Kris Ligman +Ian Miles Cheong It would be a particularly great undertaking that would require either a lot of research or a lot of sampling. Either I would have to rate companies by the types of games they produced, the types of statements they've made, or by surveys they can fill out themselves. It's definitely do-able, it just takes picking a method and hoping it's manageable.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

+Craig Bamford Having gender-blind relationships is fairly common in game history. In Ultima you could often have sex with prostitutes, either male or female, as either male or female. The Sims example I mentioned above counts as well.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser I have one question for Bioware: Why do the Asari have mammaries??

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser The Male Gaze defeats any liberation Bayonetta might have been exercising. My best friend walked in on me playing it, and made a rather astute observation: Bayonetta was an obviously foreign interpretation of an American porn star and sexual beauty, which is why she has the figure she has with a very small head in comparison. Everything was built around the male fantasy, which means all of the liberation Bayonetta had had to pass the dude check-list first.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser +Mattie Brice Yeah, I tend to refer to +William Huber's essay whenever Bayonetta gets mentioned... http://www.zang.org/2010/01/sexy-videogameland-if-you-run-out-of.html

(PS running to bed now. Catch up with this thread in the morning!)?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser +Ian Miles Cheong I think a better incision would be to ask why feminine props were used to frame the Asari. Why are they the galaxy's strippers? How do they have the Maiden-Mother-Crone arch in a society that doesn't have another gender? Mammaries are actually reasonable, but showing off their breasts in a sexual manner like (some) humans do is what's questionable. There are human cultures on Earth that don't find breasts sexual. Are the Asari Omnisexual and Queer? They could be if the Male Gaze wasn't involved. Instead, we only get what fits comfortably for straight men, though the way they are presented is easy for said demography to swallow ideas of queerness. So while that community might discuss that, we over here might not be as easily convinced.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Ian Miles Cheong +Rowan Kaiser +Mattie Brice yeah, particularly with the rise of Bogost, a New Critical approach seems apropos for games. There's a lot of hype and buzz with studio figureheads in terms of the politics in any given game - Hideki Kamiya had a lot of press about how he intentionally exaggerated Bayonetta's proportions, and how there were weeks spent on getting her ass to look right. IIRC, he claimed to do it as a celebration of femininity, but it's the 'text' that speaks in the end.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

The existence of the Male Gaze doesn't automatically destroy anything interesting about a game any more than it destroys interesting things about every film ever.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser Uh, that's not what I said. The Male Gaze doesn't stop conversation, but it undercuts a legitimate claim to an empowered woman outside the influence of men.?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice +Rowan Kaiser +Ian Miles Cheong I tend to refer back to Latoya Petersen's piece on character design of women in games - it's quite telling. http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/10/sexism-character-design-and-the-role-of-women-in-created-worlds/?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser +Mattie Brice different critical lenses, no? different interpretations can coexist comfortably as long as you keep in mind the different viewpoints and issues at stake.?

Ian Miles Cheong

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings +Rowan Kaiser +Mattie Brice It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the design of game designed for mass consumption like Mass Effect can't exist in a vacuum. Marketing comes in and wrecks the whole place with the insistance that 'female assets' (e.g. breasts) are prominently featured on the Asari to keep the status quo comfy.

The designers may not intend it, but the end result is what matters.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

It undercuts it, but it doesn't stop the conversation as dramatically as you and Ian seem to think. So the asari are sexualized. Sure. This doesn't mean that they aren't useful and interesting, regardless of authorial intent. Social justice-based examinations of popular culture almost always depends on moving beyond simple good/bad and into deeper contextual issues.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Karl Parakenings Definitely, I'd be interested in seeing a piece that affirmed the Male Gaze and still argued that Bayonetta was a liberated and ideal woman character. Because my mind says its impossible, but hey, if someone wants to give it a shot, I won't stop them!?

Karl Parakenings

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice oh, definitely, but I was just tryin' to keep the conversation moving instead of getting bogged down in mutually contradictory readings. :P Grad school seminar training, I guess.?

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice I can't help but think of the piece that +Leigh Alexander did on Bayonetta, since it seems to inform so much of the discussion. (I also can't speak to the game personally. Never played it.)?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice Do you follow @kirbybits/Courtney on Twitter? When she played Bayonetta a while back she went on a big long tweet-attack about its portrayals of sex and gender.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

(in a positive way, mind)?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser My interpretation doesn't rely on authorial intent. You could tell me that ME was made by all queer women looking to empower women and I'd have the same stance. What is problematic to me is how all expressions of anything queer first has to be made palatable to straight men, done consciously or not. So, I do they present something interesting? Yeah, definitely, more than usual. But that usual bar is rather low. I'm not damning the entire conversation, but first we must recognize what's there.

I do follow her, but didn't when Bayonetta came out (I wasn't on Twitter at all). First off, let me say that I thought Bayonetta was FUN, I loved it and it was cheesy as hell. But the moment we start to say "Bayonetta is that ideal woman protagonist!" I disagree.

+Craig Bamford I read her article, and I believe I disagreed with her for the most part. I can't seem to find the original article anymore, but if it was one of the cases of Bayonetta being empowering, it didn't resonate with me.?

William Huber

Dec 10, 2011

Thanks for inviting me to this thread, +Kris Ligman . I'm not sure I have a substantive contribution to make at this point. I guess I have a meta-question: just what kind of work do we want representations of protagonists in mass-media forms to do, and for who? The critiques need to rest on a claim, I think: some sort of expectation, and I'm not sure which are at play. A proliferation of audiences? The creation of a queer ludography? Anti-hegemonic mass-culture, mass-market artifacts? Works which at least aren't explicitly insulting its players? Critiques of specific, problematic stances and representations in games? Models of sexuality themselves (e.g., The Sims, Fable II, and other adaptive systems for modelling attraction - which often strike me as a compromise at best) Is this about Bildungseffekt and 'positive models for youth?' (which I wouldn't dismiss out of hand as an issue) etc. There is sometimes a discourse which circles around an imaginary ideal work, compares the actual and finds it wanting, without explain the function and circulation of that ideal.

I'll try to catch up on this thread in the morning, if I survive the inevitable Lucha Libre attack of the toddler.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

I am dubious of buying guide-type things if they're obvious or if they're basically implied boycotts, a tactic I'm always wary of. I do, however, appreciate them when they highlight things that aren't obvious, for example, the ones that rank the environmental impact of electronic companies.

So with that in mind, something that highlights good and lesser-known things on one hand, but also exposes lesser-known negative corporate practices on the other, I think would be useful. If it's just "Bioware gets a B- for Mass Effect romances that everyone already knows about", that's much less useful.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Rowan Kaiser The results will depend on what information you can actually get. You'd somehow have to get all these developers to be interviewed or take a questionnaire, which seems rather unlikely. Or maybe it isn't?

I think the spirit of the guide lets you know how companies stand on your issue, and using that data to inform your purchases. It follows more the "vote with your wallet" rather than "nah nah I'm making a scene not buying from you." It's purpose is to get customers to say "I prefer X's products over yours because they have a stronger initiative to include LGBT characters." If strong women protagonists are something EXTREMELY important to me and I hope to see more of, why should I give Activision my money? Outside of them making something that is super-pertinent to my interests, I wouldn't want to give resources for someone doing something I don't like. I also want to encourage companies that take risks and cushion their burn when they aren't well received. A lot of decisions to cut or emphasize features and goals comes from a business perspective of making money. We're still at the point where most games make games to make money, not to make art and hopefully some good money will come out of it.

It's not the ONLY way to go about it, but it recognizes what kind of situation we're in. I'd also take suggestions on what sort of information people want to know about companies in relation to Queer and other social topics.?

Kris Ligman

Dec 10, 2011

+Mattie Brice Re your earlier comment on trying to track down Leigh Alexander's piece on Bayonetta, I believe you'll find that linked at the head of the post from +William Huber I referenced. Here it is: http://sexyvideogameland.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-you-run-out-of-ammo-you-can-have.html?

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011

The problem with doing a buyer's guide is the problem of finding someone who doesn't do something obnoxious.

(Maybe Auntie Pixelante. But that all depends on how you feel about that "womyn's festival" thing she did, about BDSM, about her writing, etc.)

Plus, if you want to start doing buyer's guides for objectionable behavior, then you have to either stick STRICTLY to sexuality, or you'll need to engage with the problem of how hilariously anti-consumer things have become. We're at the point where EA's banning people from single player games for being naughty on a forum. It's, um, not the healthiest situation even WITHOUT heteronormativity.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

+Kris Ligman It's actually the piece she original wrote for Game Pro that isn't coming up anymore that I read. I feel for her in this post only because I feel similar pressures to be one way or another, to not be grey. Funny that she says it, I've been ignoring my extreme fascination with sexuality in games because of how problematic it is. I know I'm naive because I don't make money from my work, but I can't stomach yet her stance on her writing and needing to make money. I can empathize, though, with doing things I don't want to because I feel like I have to. So, in essence, I agree that strong women characters can be empowered and sexual, but the caveat is it has to be outside of the Male Gaze to be convincing. We are already inundated with sexual women within the Male Gaze that I don't know who is actually a strong woman because there's nothing else to judge them against. This is all assuming, of course, that we all agree that Gazes exist and there's a predominately Hegemonic Masculine Gaze ingrained in all media.?

Mattie Brice

Dec 10, 2011

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+Craig Bamford I was thinking more about citing the positive than negative in that case. It's easier to be convince a company to do something when it's getting other companies more money. So if I say that I definitely buy games because they are putting a concerted effort to push the envelope on minority representation, that means that company knows at least one way to get my money. To me, the buying guide is just an adaption of one philosophy in another's, beating someone by their own rules.

I'd like to stay away from any Slippery Slope mentality because we're already in a bad situation, and someone will always muck things up. The better way to think is how to counter said examples by ingraining a counter-measure into our philosophy. The point isn't censor everything we don't like, but encourage what we do so much that no one wants to do what we don't like anymore. Racial slurs used to not be taboo to say, and now they are, and there's a reason for it.?

Rowan Kaiser

Dec 10, 2011

Well that's the point. If all you're doing is trying to judge by the games - which can cause different kinds of judgments - then you're not really doing anything other than making a Border House compilation or something. A consumer guide on an important issue should reveal stuff that isn't immediately apparent.

Otherwise you end up with the queer version of this: http://christwire.org/ And I guess if you want that's okay, but it's not something I'm interested in.?

Craig Bamford

Dec 10, 2011