LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: The Education Minister Christopher Pyne joined me a short time ago from Parliament House.

Christopher Pyne, thank you for your time.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE, EDUCATION MINISTER: Pleasure, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: Minister, you've badly let down the Abbott team here, haven't you?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. I don't think the Australian public ever mark anyone down for having a go. These reforms are vitally important for the universities, for students and for Australia. Tomorrow I'll be introducing a new reform bill which picks up nine of the 10 elements from the previous bill, drops the indexation at the 10-year government bond rate and picks up a number of the amendments that Universities Australia and some of the crossbenchers have wanted. And I'll represent that bill tomorrow and we'll debate it in February. As far as I'm concerned, round one is over; round two begins tonight.

LEIGH SALES: But if they're so vitally important, how is it that you've made such a hash of round one?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I haven't. In fact I secured the support of senators Madigan, Muir, Leyonhjelm and Day for the second reading.

LEIGH SALES: It doesn't matter how many you got, you didn't get enough to get it through. You embarrassed the Government by failing as the relevant minister to secure the votes needed to ensure the passage of a key piece of legislation.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I don't think that's the takeout at all, Leigh. I think the takeout is that a good minister worked very hard to try and achieve a very important reform since May. At the end of the year, he put that to a vote. In no way any shamefulness, that vote was not carried, 33 to 31, and I'll be back to it again, as I am on your show tonight, I'll be back at it again tomorrow, because a vital reform for Australia, for our universities and for our students. And unfortunately the media see this as "Who's got the ball at a particular time?" and "Who's kicking where?" The reality is politics is bigger than the day-to-day cut and thrust that the media cover.

LEIGH SALES: Mr Pyne, it's not the media that failed to secure the votes for this legislation. Not only did you fail to persuade the crossbenchers of the merits of what you say is a vital piece of reform, you've not been able to persuade the public either. In fact, polls show that you've barely persuaded a majority of Coalition voters that it was a good idea.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I've persuaded the entire university sector to support this reform. Universities Australia, which represents the 41 universities, has been lockstep in support of these reforms with amendments and I thank them very much for that. It is quite an achievement ...

LEIGH SALES: Well you haven't actually persuaded - sorry, I just want to pick you up there. You haven't exactly persuaded the entire sector. Stephen Parker, the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Canberra has described this reform today as a blight on the lives of a generation unless Australia comes to its senses.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well surprisingly, Leigh, you've found the one vice chancellor who is publicly opposed to these reforms out of the 41. But the other 40 are in favour. And of course, University of Canberra is a member of Universities Australia and Universities Australia supports these reforms with the amendments that I proposed today and that I will reintroduce tomorrow. So, the university sector is united in supporting these reforms.

LEIGH SALES: The Palmer United Senate Leader Glenn Lazarus put out an unusual statement earlier today calling on you to stop harassing him. Have you been harassing him?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Senator Lazarus is the only crossbench senator who's refused to meet with me to discuss these reforms. So the only avenue he's left to be able to communicate with him besides letters has been SMS. Now, once I saw that report, I hoped he didn't mind the fact that I sent him a Christmas card today, Leigh. I'm sure he won't, but I'm happy to keep talking to Senator Lazarus because these reforms are important.

LEIGH SALES: But have you been harassing him? Like, how often have you been texting him?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Oh, I would have sent him seven or eight texts and I'm happy to send him more texts. In fact I'm surprised because he told Samantha Maiden from News Limited I could send him as many texts as he wanted after he published that blog. So, I'm as confused as the next person about Senator Lazarus wanting me to send him texts or not because he actually said to Sam Maiden I could send him as many as I wanted.

LEIGH SALES: Does it say something about your relationship building with the crossbenchers, on whom the Government depends to get its agenda through, that in the case of at least one of them, your relationship is so bad that he felt the need to issue a public statement to tell you to stop contacting him rather than feeling he could pick up the phone and call you?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I have an excellent relationship with the crossbenches, Leigh, and this is a very big reform ...

LEIGH SALES: Except for Glenn Lazarus or ... ?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I have a great relationship with Glenn Lazarus and Clive Palmer and Dio Wong and I'm always prepared to talk to people and I'm ...

LEIGH SALES: I think it's Dio Wang, actually.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well some people pronounce it Wang, some people pronounce it Wong; it depends on where you are in the spectrum. But, if you wish to pick me up on that, Leigh, that's a very small thing and I'm surprised that you would bother with it. But nevertheless, Dio and I are good friends and I intend to continue to try and get their support.

LEIGH SALES: You are one of the key senior members of the Abbott team. Explain to me with your relationships with the crossbenchers, how do you go about building those? Like, how often do you meet with them in person? What is the quality of those relationships?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I've met with some of the crossbenchers many, many times. In fact I've met with some of them six or seven or eight times. But I'm not going to go through the day-to-day machinations of how government works, Leigh. You can go and do that - study that at university if you wish to in a Bachelor of Political Science. The reality is that I'm working closely with the crossbench. I secured four of their votes today. I'll be back at it again tomorrow with a new reform bill because this reform is important to universities and students, it's important to our economy, it's important for productivity and participation and I look forward to continuing to work with them.

LEIGH SALES: Isn't the problem though that some of them think it's not an issue about the amendments, it's the fact that they don't believe that universities should be deregulated, full stop?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, some of them believe that and I've got to continue to work to change their mind.

LEIGH SALES: Christopher Pyne, thank you very much for making time to come and speak to us.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's always a pleasure.