“It is, it is,” Mr Stone said. “And sometimes if you can have that good relationship with one of their colleagues you can say to them, 'Well if you, if we can’t talk to them directly but if you can have a chat to them about these particular points … Or pass on this message for me’ — that’s a good way of getting round this … It is a bit of cunning is needed when you’re dealing with some of these ones but sometimes we find people who are very happy to — to do that.”