Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts Last Edited: 2011-02-14 08:52:11 #1



9 pylon (3+CB on probes, basically as many as you feel comfortable with)

13 gate, scout, steal 1 of the opponents gas*

14/15 assim.

16 pylon

cyber

2nd assim

zeal

stalker+warpgate

forge, robo (I start saving CB for colossus or range upgrade)

gate

robo bay

Generally push with 2 colossus, or 3 colossus+range

nonstop zealot production throughout off 2 gates.



*From here the build can change, you'll likely see 5 different things.



2 gate

When seeing the 2 gate there's no need to gas steal as they won't be taking either gas for awhile, throw down a forge upon scouting, defend normally. (some people with 2 gate themselves with earlier gas + cyber to abuse defenders advantage, that works too)



Korean 4 gate, easily recognized by the early (10) gate, steal gas anyways in case he's actually just getting ultra fast colossus tech. In this case throw down the forge as normal, if you can snipe the probe that's in your base throw down 3 (2 cannons + 2-3 zeals, stalker can be beaten by 8 zeals. 3 can usually hold) then proceed with standard BO, his low tech and lower economy will lose easily if you didn't take too much damage yourself.



Standard BO with high CB saved

Likely a 4 gate, steal gas and it's almost guaranteed, keep probe alive in base scouting and throw down forge if/when 4 gate is confirmed, or if you're pretty certain due to high CB when probe dies throw down forge and rescout. Against standard 1 gas 4 gate with pylons at clip to build zeals on high ground etc 2 cannons + units off your 1 gate will hold fine, proceed with standard BO and you should be able to win against: him trying to robo tech, him trying to expand, or pretty much anything. Get an observer and check for blink/dts/stargate. Against dt's you have observers and will win, against a stargate build expand and go for a more stalker heavy build with less colossus and you'll be fine. Vs blink you colossus if you're comfortable with that, or just focus on immortals.



Standard BO with low CB

Probably a similar 2 gate robo build, gas steal will put you ahead in gas and likely you'll be ahead by a colossus and win if he tries that style(likely don't need forge), if you expect/scout a gateway+immortal push 1-2 cannons and keep up unit production and you'll be fine.



Nothing

You're likely being proxy gated/ proxy forge+cannons, get your forge and react similarly as the 2 gate.



Basically gist of the build is: steal gas, cannon to defend 4 gate, win with colossus push. Or steal gas, he also techs, has less gas, you win due to more gas in a tech race.



Replays:

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188997

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188998

Vs 3 gate stargate(phoenix) expand:



So any feedback, ideas, comments, thanks, etc is welcome :D This build is something I've thought up as a way to change the standard PvP. Generally you're likely too see 2 main builds PvP, 1 gas probe cutting 4 gates (standard), or a more tech oriented colossus build generally off a 2 gate robo build. Well I said change the standard PvP but it's more like taking advantage of it. General BO follows:9 pylon (3+CB on probes, basically as many as you feel comfortable with)13 gate, scout, steal 1 of the opponents gas*14/15 assim.16 pyloncyber2nd assimzealstalker+warpgateforge, robo (I start saving CB for colossus or range upgrade)gaterobo bayGenerally push with 2 colossus, or 3 colossus+rangenonstop zealot production throughout off 2 gates.*From here the build can change, you'll likely see 5 different things.2 gateWhen seeing the 2 gate there's no need to gas steal as they won't be taking either gas for awhile, throw down a forge upon scouting, defend normally. (some people with 2 gate themselves with earlier gas + cyber to abuse defenders advantage, that works too)Korean 4 gate, easily recognized by the early (10) gate, steal gas anyways in case he's actually just getting ultra fast colossus tech. In this case throw down the forge as normal, if you can snipe the probe that's in your base throw down 3 (2 cannons + 2-3 zeals, stalker can be beaten by 8 zeals. 3 can usually hold) then proceed with standard BO, his low tech and lower economy will lose easily if you didn't take too much damage yourself.Standard BO with high CB savedLikely a 4 gate, steal gas and it's almost guaranteed, keep probe alive in base scouting and throw down forge if/when 4 gate is confirmed, or if you're pretty certain due to high CB when probe dies throw down forge and rescout. Against standard 1 gas 4 gate with pylons at clip to build zeals on high ground etc 2 cannons + units off your 1 gate will hold fine, proceed with standard BO and you should be able to win against: him trying to robo tech, him trying to expand, or pretty much anything. Get an observer and check for blink/dts/stargate. Against dt's you have observers and will win, against a stargate build expand and go for a more stalker heavy build with less colossus and you'll be fine. Vs blink you colossus if you're comfortable with that, or just focus on immortals.Standard BO with low CBProbably a similar 2 gate robo build, gas steal will put you ahead in gas and likely you'll be ahead by a colossus and win if he tries that style(likely don't need forge), if you expect/scout a gateway+immortal push 1-2 cannons and keep up unit production and you'll be fine.NothingYou're likely being proxy gated/ proxy forge+cannons, get your forge and react similarly as the 2 gate.Basically gist of the build is: steal gas, cannon to defend 4 gate, win with colossus push. Or steal gas, he also techs, has less gas, you win due to more gas in a tech race.Replays:Vs 3 gate stargate(phoenix) expand: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=189017 Basically I was trying to do this build but he took his gasses to early, I responded with just cutting colossus and getting more stalkers. This was against a 2700 masters, but it was a custom so I was taking it pretty relaxed and despite floating over 1000 minerals still won fine.So any feedback, ideas, comments, thanks, etc is welcome :D You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

Simberto Profile Blog Joined July 2010 Germany 8151 Posts Last Edited: 2011-02-14 07:41:16 #2 I have no time to watch your replays yet, but i can not believe that turtling on one base with a lot cannons is a very good idea. Doesn't every smart enemy just expand and have a lot more stuff than you when you actually attack? And you will need a lot of cannons to hold of 4-gates.



Edit: Hm, your push seems to happen at a difficult time for people who expand once they see your cannons. However, i still think that it should be possible to defend an expansion against your 2 colossus push. Does this never work, or just in that game you posted?



What happens if your enemy gets blink, and bypasses your cannons either by using an observer, or simply by fastly blinking in through the front door? Or warpins with an observer/halluzination to spot the highground somewhere at the side of your base? If you fall back with your mobile army, they can kill your cannons at the front.

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts Last Edited: 2011-02-14 07:46:47 #3 If you read it all (which you didn't) you can see only 2 cannons are put down to counter the 4 gate, and none at all if you don't expect an attack. Also even if the opponents fast expands you have higher tech, and a larger army to move out with even before the enemy is able benefit from the expansion. I am 3k masters so this isn't some bronze 1 base mass cannon carrier rush or anything, it's been working wonders for me on the ladder.



Edit in response to your edit.

The only way for the opponent's expansion to be able to hold is if he expands REALLY early, and he is able to get enough of an economy advantage to hold. And if you see this early of an expansion just push out with a gateway/immortal force, or skip the robo+forge and 4 gate it.



Blink stalks do seem the hardest thing to deal with when using this build, but with the gas steal it would be delayed, and if he only transitions to blink after a failed 4 gate you should hit before he has enough of a stalker force to be much of a threat. If he opens blink by either taking his gasses early enough, or just killing the assimilator early, ignore your forge/cannons, and just go gateway/immortal and you should hold fine. You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

panzzzzz Profile Joined April 2010 United States 109 Posts #4 Effective in high masters only if you polish the timing for a 1 base colossus vs. an expanding player behind in tech. Wait too long, and you will lose, especially with the forge putting you more behind than normal. Otherwise I can vouch for the op that this is generally an effective (though not new) build on ladder. From my experience, 2 colossus + range is about the time you want to push. Waiting for a third is pushing the limits of the timing window, and sometimes will be too late depending on map positions. www.monoesports.com

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #5 On February 14 2011 16:43 panzzzzz wrote:

Effective in high masters only if you polish the timing for a 1 base colossus vs. an expanding player behind in tech. Wait too long, and you will lose, especially with the forge putting you more behind than normal. Otherwise I can vouch for the op that this is generally an effective (though not new) build on ladder. From my experience, 2 colossus + range is about the time you want to push. Waiting for a third is pushing the limits of the timing window, and sometimes will be too late depending on map positions.



I find if he does expand pushing out with 2 colossus no range with a few extra stalkers (extra gas by ignoring the range upgrade) works fine, as I said I've done this build successfully probably 6 times on the ladder, and only lost with it once (didn't have enough cannons to hold vs mass zealot 4 gate build) anytime my opponent has gone expansion pushing out at 2 colossus no range hasn't lost, if he doesn't expand 3 colossus + range with mass zealot hasn't lost against a similar tech build.



Also if he expands and defends with cannons you can harass up his main using colossus while you wait for range+another colossus, while expanding yourself. I find if he does expand pushing out with 2 colossus no range with a few extra stalkers (extra gas by ignoring the range upgrade) works fine, as I said I've done this build successfully probably 6 times on the ladder, and only lost with it once (didn't have enough cannons to hold vs mass zealot 4 gate build) anytime my opponent has gone expansion pushing out at 2 colossus no range hasn't lost, if he doesn't expand 3 colossus + range with mass zealot hasn't lost against a similar tech build.Also if he expands and defends with cannons you can harass up his main using colossus while you wait for range+another colossus, while expanding yourself. You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

Simberto Profile Blog Joined July 2010 Germany 8151 Posts #6 It is strange how you can tell what i read and didn't read. I generally read posts completely before replying. I think this is simply general politeness. I also did so in this case. 2 Cannons + a forge is still a lot of stuff that is stuck in you base, and not in your moving army that early



You are probably a better player than me, so i do not think i can really say anything about it, but i believe this could cause problems. But obviously, you need those cannons to defend a 4-gate. Also, when doing something uncommon on ladder, if it works it does not necessarily mean that it is good, it could also mean that your opponents have just not seen it before, and do not exactly know how to react, and what to expect. I am not saying this is the case with your build, since i honestly do not know. You basically do a one-base tech all-in with cannons for defense, which is fine.



Maybe you have already done this, but does this also work multiple times on the same person, say if you do some practice matches against someone of similar skill? Please don't take this wrong, i am absolutely sure that your grasp on this matchup is better than mine, i am just suggesting things which might or might not be problems.

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #7 On February 14 2011 16:51 Simberto wrote:

It is strange how you can tell what i read and didn't read. I generally read posts completely before replying. I think this is simply general politeness. I also did so in this case. 2 Cannons + a forge is still a lot of stuff that is stuck in you base, and not in your moving army that early



You are probably a better player than me, so i do not think i can really say anything about it, but i believe this could cause problems. But obviously, you need those cannons to defend a 4-gate. Also, when doing something uncommon on ladder, if it works it does not necessarily mean that it is good, it could also mean that your opponents have just not seen it before, and do not exactly know how to react, and what to expect. I am not saying this is the case with your build, since i honestly do not know. You basically do a one-base tech all-in with cannons for defense, which is fine.



Maybe you have already done this, but does this also work multiple times on the same person, say if you do some practice matches against someone of similar skill? Please don't take this wrong, i am absolutely sure that your grasp on this matchup is better than mine, i am just suggesting things which might or might not be problems.



They way you said "turtling with a lot of cannons" and "you will need a lot of cannons to hold a 4 gate" led me to belive you didn't read it all... That or you seem a little ignorant of a few things. The traditional 1 gas 4 gate also cuts probes quite hard, and builds excess productions structures (4 gates off 1 base not supportable with stalkers put in) so the cannons are slightly offset by that economic damage as well. Also if he does attack/poke with his 4 gate he's likely to lose units whereas you won't lose anything. In that case you're even farther ahead in resources. In the case of a slightly longer game you already have your forge for upgrade further offsetting the cost against.



If your opponent expands too early, he just loses... There are no safe fast expands PvP against this sort of build, Adel's no gas PvP build is pretty much the only safeish FE and only if your zealots do economic damage, and you opponent insists upon a 4 gate. There's nothing keeping you from expanding earlier than your opponent if he plays safely and turtles as well, if that's how you prefer to play, because of your early gas advantage you'll have a much easier time defending any expansion compared to your opponent. They way you said "turtling with a lot of cannons" and "you will need a lot of cannons to hold a 4 gate" led me to belive you didn't read it all... That or you seem a little ignorant of a few things. The traditional 1 gas 4 gate also cuts probes quite hard, and builds excess productions structures (4 gates off 1 base not supportable with stalkers put in) so the cannons are slightly offset by that economic damage as well. Also if he does attack/poke with his 4 gate he's likely to lose units whereas you won't lose anything. In that case you're even farther ahead in resources. In the case of a slightly longer game you already have your forge for upgrade further offsetting the cost against.If your opponent expands too early, he just loses... There are no safe fast expands PvP against this sort of build, Adel's no gas PvP build is pretty much the only safeish FE and only if your zealots do economic damage, and you opponent insists upon a 4 gate. There's nothing keeping you from expanding earlier than your opponent if he plays safely and turtles as well, if that's how you prefer to play, because of your early gas advantage you'll have a much easier time defending any expansion compared to your opponent. You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

Dommk Profile Joined May 2010 Australia 4463 Posts Last Edited: 2011-02-14 08:26:40 #8 What about high ground warp ins? I think KCDC's 1gas robo is better, especially since you can take your second gas when the 4gate happens and be fine

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #9 On February 14 2011 17:25 Dommk wrote:

What about high ground warp ins? I think KCDC's 1gas robo is better, especially since you can take your second gas when the 4gate happens and be fine

You mean via hallu/observer? Or just as he pushes with is 4-5 stalker 1 zeal he warps in 4 zeals with the push? For the first I'm not sure how that would go for either play I'd need to experience it, but for either his gas would be pretty low, and only 4 units would get in your main, you'd have more than that anyways to hold. For the latter, that's the type of 4 gate I'm talking about, usually by the time this hits you have ~3 zeals and 1 stalker and 2 cannnon you usually hold fine and if you're in trouble just cb out an immortal or your gateways for more units. If you're uncomfortable holding the 4 gate as is just add 1 more cannon, it holds fine. Alternatively you can get 1 sentry and cannon+ff can crush anything he throws at you, I just like to save the gas. You mean via hallu/observer? Or just as he pushes with is 4-5 stalker 1 zeal he warps in 4 zeals with the push? For the first I'm not sure how that would go for either play I'd need to experience it, but for either his gas would be pretty low, and only 4 units would get in your main, you'd have more than that anyways to hold. For the latter, that's the type of 4 gate I'm talking about, usually by the time this hits you have ~3 zeals and 1 stalker and 2 cannnon you usually hold fine and if you're in trouble just cb out an immortal or your gateways for more units. If you're uncomfortable holding the 4 gate as is just add 1 more cannon, it holds fine. Alternatively you can get 1 sentry and cannon+ff can crush anything he throws at you, I just like to save the gas. You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

EmptyW Profile Joined September 2010 Sweden 22 Posts Last Edited: 2011-02-14 15:48:49 #10 I've always figured 1base colossi being VERY weak. Because your army will be mainly zealots, an immortal drop on the colossi pretty much shuts it down and sentries can hold the rest. In this case the opponent can expand without dying to your push while you're stuck on one base teching. Thoughts about this? oOoOoOoOoOoOoOo

iSTime Profile Joined November 2006 1579 Posts Last Edited: 2011-02-14 15:56:26 #11 If you steal their gas, use early chrono boost and take your second gas, your opponent can just 1 gate expand->3/4 gate+forge->twilight tech, and you cannot possibly push him in time. The second your opponent scouts the 2nd assim, 3rd pylon, not saving chrono boost and stealing your gas, there's nothing you can possibly do to stop the FE.



You say that a 1 base colossus push will kill them, but this is not true if they can safely expand this early. www.infinityseven.net

Alejandrisha Profile Blog Joined July 2010 United States 6485 Posts #12 On February 15 2011 00:55 PJA wrote:

If you steal their gas, use early chrono boost and take your second gas, your opponent can just 1 gate expand->3/4 gate+forge->twilight tech, and you cannot possibly push him in time. The second your opponent scouts the 2nd assim, 3rd pylon, not saving chrono boost and stealing your gas, there's nothing you can possibly do to stop the FE.



You say that a 1 base colossus push will kill them, but this is not true if they can safely expand this early.



hmm where have you seen this?? xD

i have to agree here stealing gas is not very good in pvp unless you have a very specific reason to do it. a 1 gas build could be 4gate or fe and so forcing your opponent to only have one gas forces you to flip a coin. at least if you scout 2 gases you can narrow it down to robo/twilight play for the most part.



most high tosses, if they scout your 2 gases, will expand quickly and feign 4gate pressure (ie cb'ing wg research, poking with 1 zeal, 1 stalker, 1 probe at the appropriate timing) because they know you will be playing passive and reactive besides the occasional 2 gas 4gate (el oh el wtf?)



tldr: stealing opponent's gas sets you up to win a colossus arms race that probably won't end up taking place



btw where u been time i missed youthis weekend no one to practice with :/ hmm where have you seen this?? xDi have to agree here stealing gas is not very good in pvp unless you have a very specific reason to do it. a 1 gas build could be 4gate or fe and so forcing your opponent to only have one gas forces you to flip a coin. at least if you scout 2 gases you can narrow it down to robo/twilight play for the most part.most high tosses, if they scout your 2 gases, will expand quickly and feign 4gate pressure (ie cb'ing wg research, poking with 1 zeal, 1 stalker, 1 probe at the appropriate timing) because they know you will be playing passive and reactive besides the occasional 2 gas 4gate (el oh el wtf?)tldr: stealing opponent's gas sets you up to win a colossus arms race that probably won't end up taking placebtw where u been time i missed youthis weekend no one to practice with :/ get rich or die mining.

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #13 If they do any sort of expansion like that, it's no different than any time they try to fast expand PvP, the 75 minerals of the gas steal isn't going to be enough to turn the game imo. The gas steal restricts mass stalker play by your opponent, as well as negating any early blink. Also if you gas steal and they try to do a/the: 1 zeal, 1 stalker, and 1 probe poke, they can't kill the gas without delaying the poke to kill it and if they don't take the gas and go to your base you scout that with your scouting probe, only the stalker is able to kill your scouting probe so if the stalker comes out but doesn't attack the assimilator you know he's pushing and can defend.



If they expand that early (1 gate) it's very easy to just to throw down 2 more gates and push off with 3 gate robo all in and easily win, with the gas steal he'll have ne sentries, low stalker, and low zealot count. No units = gg. And you specifically mentioned forge in that expand so if he throws down cannons, they're wasted money, colossus with range = free cannons.



All that being said I'd have to test it out. You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #14 stealing gas as toss kind of sucks overall.



You pay 75 to stop someone from getting an early 2 gas but they can easily kill the assimilator and get their 2nd gas reasonably quick still. The most important thing is that most builds AGAINST protoss are 1 gas or have a late 2nd gas anyways so you don't even bother them...



So you steal their gas, they can now still do their 1 gate 4 gate if they wanted too or they can simply do a FE. Both of which are very viable options. If you forge you are always behind against a player who FE's and being earlier on colossus tech won't matter at all... Watch some adelscott games to see that it's complete nonsense that a 2 non range colossi push kills a expansion... In fact colossus play is getting more and more rare in PvP as even if the game does not involve a 4 gate it is not neccesarily that strong. Blink stalkers can beat a colossus player with good basetrading etc and chargelot, immortal, voidray can also demolish colossus builds...

Proto_Protoss Profile Joined September 2010 United States 495 Posts #15 Gas steal does nothing in PvP and if i see you get CANNONS im just going to expand "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up everytime we do." - Confucius

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #16 First of all, saying the gas steal does nothing is clearly wrong, it limits the opponents options, it makes stargates builds, twilight builds, sentry builds, difficult, and if they try to match you for colossus you outright win, more gas=more colossus= wins



If you do a 4 gate, then scout cannons, you're actually farther behind than I am, 4 gates hurt eco more than a forge+3 cannons, if you expand early enough I'd just ignore cannons, and probably the colossus and just push you and win. 2 colossus no range push vs a fe is almost always a free win, if they are going to build cannons, just start range earlier and push with 3 colossus no range.



You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #17 eh what is this nonsense about a 2 colossus no range push winning vs a fe?

Fe is at a huge advantage vs a colossus build. It is not like colossus number is the only thing that determines PvP fights, as having 10 more gateway units easily outweighs having 1 or 2 less colossi, especially if he has blink stalkers.



Your build throws up the 2nd assimilator quite fast AND you have stolen an assimilator so he is quite safe to do a 1 gas 1 gate FE into 4 gate. Even if you do a 2 gas 4 gate at him he has a fair chance to defend then as you are behind at least 150 minerals (2 assimilators), while he spends about 270 (nexus is 400 but also provides 12 pop). However if he simply tries a eco 4 gate push (slightly slower then normal but no real probe cut) then he will see your forge and cannons. If he expands then he is still way ahead as 1 base colossus rushing simply doesnt provide for strong pushes...

Skyro Profile Joined May 2010 United States 1512 Posts #18 I think you highly overvalue the benefit of stealing gas in pvp based on your OP.

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #19 If he expands off 1 gate no cybe I win with 2 stalkers, I mean seriously, also if he expanded off 1 gate I'd see that before my own 2nd gas and I'd just push and win. That being said you are talking about this obvious counter that will auto win (debatable) and yet of the ~10 times I've done it on the ladder, 7 times people just 1 gas 4 gate, 1 korean 4 gate, 1 phoenix stargate build, and 1 dt rush + cannons.

The fastest expand I've seen was off of 2 gates and a robo, and that lost due to my 2 colossus no range push because he just couldn't engage me, mass zealot colossus beats 2X its number against zeal, stalker, sentry.

You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts #20 On February 15 2011 02:47 Skyro wrote:

I think you highly overvalue the benefit of stealing gas in pvp based on your OP.



If you steal gas, you are almost guaranteed to win vs a similar tech path, and your opponent thinking you're behind in minerals almost always opts to do a 4 gate, which is easily defended with cannons.



If you steal gas, you are almost guaranteed to win vs a similar tech path, and your opponent thinking you're behind in minerals almost always opts to do a 4 gate, which is easily defended with cannons. You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.

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