There have been no shortage of sleepless nights in this Blue Jays season going nowhere with the ongoing conversation about the status of manager John Gibbons and pitching coach Pete Walker leading to so much discomfort at the club’s executive level.

It has been learned that on holiday Monday morning, before the Jays slugging victory over the Los Angeles Angels, club president Paul Beeston and general manager Alex Anthopoulos met at length to exchange views, assess the club top to bottom, and try and figure a way out of the first quarter of a season that one front office person deemed “a f---ing disaster.”

Atop the list of matters that were discussed is the continued employment of Gibbons as manager and whether to do the Red Sox thing and consider replacing pitching coach, Walker.

Anthopoulos is not the fire-the-manager type of general manager in season but the tension around the Jays and the questions about the club’s ability to compete in the weak American League East, bring Gibbons closer to being dismissed than at any time in his second go-round as Jays skipper.

This is different than the regular firing of major league managers. This is personal. The relationship between Gibbons and the front office is that of close friendship. He likes them and they like him. Nobody wants to make a move unless they feel they have no choice.

“That’s what makes this so difficult,” a source indicated. That and putting some kind of culpability on the manager for the Jays lack of pitching, both starting and in relief.

The Jays wouldn’t fire Gibbons because they believe another manager could find more life in this pitching staff. That’s not part of the discussion. They would fire him only with the belief that a change of atmosphere around this doubting club was absolutely needed. This 10-game homestand could well determine whether Gibbons finishes the season as Jays manager.

Jays management knew it was going to be light in the pitching department heading into this season, it didn’t think it would be this light.

The Jays have a 2-17 record in games in which they score fewer than five runs. When they score five or more, they are 16-5. On Monday, they scored 10 runs for a major-league leading eighth time. They lead all of baseball in runs scored and not by a little. But even the light hitting Angels scored five off Jays pitching Monday and that’s with a dreadful 0-for-5 day at the plate for AL MVP Mike Trout.

In the meeting between Beeston and Anthopoulos everything apparently was looked at — including the performance of those in the meeting. There is a certain sense of uncertainty around this team. With high-end executive Keith Pelley already gone from Rogers, Beeston in his last year as club president, Anthopoulos in the final year of his contract and Gibbons forever year to year everyone’s employment and performance has come under scrutiny. Whether there is a possibility of player transactions that didn’t include mortgaging the future was discussed.

It came down to “the whole f---ing organization,” said a source.

In recent days, veteran pitcher Mark Buehrle has said the Jays “stink” while the new third baseman, Josh Donaldson, talked openly about lack of performance and need for change. Donaldson has been to the playoffs in all three of his big league seasons. Buehrle has been a significant part of a World Series champion. They, along, with catcher Russell Martin understand winning. Martin and Donaldson believed they were joining a contending team.

The Jays, meanwhile, are caught with a lineup that is partially but not enough about today, partially about yesterday, partially about tomorrow.

Their organization weakness and strength is a teeter-totter of scattered arms. They have the worst starting pitching in the American League. They probably have the best array of young arms — mostly off the 25-man roster — in baseball. Their most consistent pitcher in the first quarter has been 20-year-old Roberto Osuna, whose place has been managed nicely by Gibbons and got to pick up his first win Monday. Their starting pitchers with the lowest earned run averages are rookie Daniel Norris, currently in Buffalo and Aaron Sanchez, a first-year starter. It is easy to indicate the Jays reliance on rookies was a mistake heading into the season — even though second baseman Devon Travis has been one of their better players. The truth on their pitching staff: The veterans, R.A. Dickey, Buehrle, Brett Cecil, Aaron Loup, have been more problematic than the kids.

That’s what makes the determination on Walker all the more difficult. Is he dealing from a bad hand? Is there anything — and you can add Martin’s history of making a pitching staff statistically lower — that Walker can do to alter the Jays fortunes on the mound?

If the answer is thought to be no, no change in that direction will be made. But all aspects of this club are currently under discussion — and with it for management quite possibly on the way out the steadfast belief they will not part with a young pitcher for a stop gap.

The last time they made major trades of such consequence they came away with Buehrle, Reyes, Josh Johnson, Dickey: How has that worked out? The famed deals with the Marlins and Mets have actually set the Blue Jays back. Both Beeston and Anthopoulos were on board for those transactions. Now privately while neither wills say so, they wish it never happened.

Depending on how the final three quarters of this season go, both Gibbons and Anthopoulos could be gone by October. Gibbons may not make it that far. This is Anthopoulos’ fifth season on the job. Somewhere in time they were expected to contend. The case to retain him as GM is built around the array of young pitchers he has on the make. The list includes Osuna, injured Marcus Stroman, Sanchez, Drew Hutchison, Norris, Miguel Castro, Jeff Hoffman and the AA lefty, Matt Boyd. Had Brendan Shanahan put a list like this together for the Leafs of 24-and-unders, he would probably have a job for life.

But right now it isn’t helping Anthopoulos’ reputation. The current staff, poorest in the AL, worst at starting, second worst in the bullpen, areas not addressed in the off-season that were evident in the past, dampen his resume as does the Jays won-loss record. It isn’t a coincidence that the six best bullpens in baseball are the six division leaders in baseball.

Gibbons, himself, understands the current landscape and has lived with this kind of uncertainty before. Two years ago, after the massive deals, the Jays were expected to win. They didn’t. Last year, with little expectations, they played well until injuries took hope away. This season, with a quarter of the schedule gone, there is little other than a mammoth offence and improved defence, to indicate contention is likely or possible. The best thing going for him is the East Division, which any club seems likely to win.

When asked about the losing — and the way in which his team has lost — Gibbons indicated it bothered him and “I hope it bothers everybody.” When he says that, he is genuinely unsure about some in his clubhouse, whether they completely care about team winning or individual achievement or something in between that.

When he quietly benched Edwin Encarnacion for a game recently in Houston for not running out a ground ball, the reaction among some in the clubhouse was: “What did Edwin do?”

Gibbons has to hope that the winning presence of Donaldson and Martin can undue a possible lack of leadership or self-awareness elsewhere. Gibbons also knows, using his own kind of gallows humour, that his job is again on the line. He’s never been everybody’s choice to manage the club. But he has always been Anthopoulos’ choice. Now the public grouses for change and he’s not deaf to what’s being said. How could he be?

“The vultures have come out,” he said. “I’m used to that. This is a tough business.”