Okay this is my personal opinion so feel free to quote me back but please don't attack me or anything.





While I understand how Marshadow is one of the must-prepare-threats, and how it centralizes the metagame (very evident from rise of Gothitelle), I don't think it is worthy of being S rank.

This might be limited to my own experience, but majority of the viability ranking threads I have lurked around have S ranked Pokemon that excels both offensively and defensively. Marshadow is offensively very threatening indeed (thanks to soulstealingbullshitstartstrike), but it doesn't provide much defensive utility to the team at all. There are very few number of Fighting-type Pokemon that are viable in this tier in the first place, and those are Marshadow (which has another STAB that hits itself supereffectively), Mega Mewtwo X (on the edge of VR) which you might not want to switch into, and Mega Lucario that goes the same. Extreme Speed immunity sounds nice but the only relevant Extreme Speed users in the tier are SD Arceus which is very easy to check using other Pokemon (aka Celesteela / Lugia / Zygarde-C), and Rayquaza which outspeeds Marshadow after Dragon Dance.

I think Marshadow is pretty good as it is. I still can see that you are emphasizing its centralization and shapes the metagame around it for certain extent but I don't think it is a master of all.





Necrozma-DM isn't good as Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon is offensively far more threatening and the number of viable sets it can run is unmatched with the rest of the tier and has universal role compression. If you say lack of recovery is the reason why you claim Necrozma-DM is superior option due to access to Morning Sun I won't say that is even close to being a good reason to nominate it over Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon defensively has better typing. It simply makes Primal Kyogre and Magearna significantly less viable than they otherwise would be by existing, and support movepool is much wider than Necrozma-DM is. Lava Plume / Toxic / Thunder Wave can all be viable ways to spread status and harass all kinds of Defog users, and Primal Groudon also has enough offensive presence to force out Mega Sableye, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex and set hazard of its own, which Necrozma-DM cannot do. It also lacks phazing move which is situationall useful when it has outlived its usefulness. In summary, Primal Groudon will still define the metagame unless significant metagame change happens, and Necrozma-DM is nowhere being close to Primal Groudon's level of offensive presence, defensive utility, and the size of array of threats it is able to handle.





Imo Necrozma-DM should stay at S rank. If not, at least A rank.

As I have mentioned above, I believe S rank Pokemon should have both defensive and offensive capabilities and Necrozma-DM fits this nicely. Defensively, it survives two Judgment from Arceus-Ground and can either throw Toxic or set Stealth Rock. It is also bulky enough to survive two Shadow Ball from Mega Gengar. These are something that should not be overlooked. Any balanced teams without things like Celesteela have any Pokemon that can switch into Arceus-Ground consistently and Necrozma-DM being able to status / set hazards on its face is massively appreciated by teammates like Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, which requires Arceus-Ground, or generally any Arceus formes eliminated or weakened to sweep. Necrozma-DM also excels being a Stealth Rock user that simultaneously is immune to Toxic (which means you can put timer on Arceus formes while they cannot), has solid recovery, while having some offensive presence that is enough to check both Geomancy Xerneas and Z-Geomancy Xerneas, which not many Pokemon are able to do outsides Magearna.



Offensively, while not great as Primal Groudon, Sunsteel Strike is very solid with Solgalium Z that is able to demolish Celesteela and Ferrothorn after couple boosts:



+4 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 436-513 (109.5 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 327-384 (92.8 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO



This means Necrozma-DM is able to dismantle defensive cores while it can set up against passive foes thanks to aid from its bulk and immunity to Toxic. Of course, the metagame is adapting to its presence and Yveltal is much more prominent, but this never means Necrozma-DM is less viable but rather it already influences the metagame to that much degree.





I strongly agree with this. Xerneas is still n.1 threat that every team must prepare. If you ask yourselves while building new Ubers team, "what things should I prepare for", I can confidently assume the first two threats will be Primal Groudon and Xerneas (or maybe stuff like Mega Salamence and Marshadow). Geomancy sets have much more counterplay at this point, but as mentioned, there are very few 'mons that are able to simultaneously handle both Geomancy and Z-Geomancy sets, which both of them are very threatening to any teams at their own rights. Also Xerneas is a cleric that actually has some offensive presence unlike stuff like Chansey or Magearna, meaning it is able to support its team in offensive teams other than just sitting on a bench and waiting for its checks to be in range of KO.