Romance might not be high on the list of things you're expecting from Marvel's The Punisher. Overseen by Hannibal producer Steve Lightfoot, the show is a dark and emotionally grueling exploration of vigilantism, as Jon Bernthal's Frank Castle relentlessly pursues vengeance for the murder of his wife and children, and in the process is drawn into a vicious conspiracy within the military he once served.

But when Frank made his debut back in Season 2 of Daredevil and became a near-instant fan favorite, his unexpectedly intense dynamic with reporter Karen Page (Deborah Ann Woll) jumped off the screen, and they've lost none of their spark now that she's a part of his standalone series.

Below, Woll speaks with BAZAAR.com about the "longing and affection" between Frank and Karen, the unspoken darkness in Karen's past, and why this version of the character will never be sexually compromised.

Woll's off-the-charts chemistry with Jon Bernthal was evident from their very first scene in Daredevil Season 2.

“Jon's such a remarkable person, and I very much fell in love with him as a performer working on that second season, so when they asked me to come in and do Punisher I didn’t even miss a beat before saying yes. Our processes are similar—I think we both take the work very seriously and we both like to maintain our connection to the material throughout the day. It doesn't mean we don't joke around, but we're not goofing off up until action. It's a committed connection to the material, and not everyone is like that. Sometimes when I work that way people roll their eyes at me, and Jon didn’t. He was excited by it, so that meant a lot to me.”



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Though Karen hasn’t shared her own violent secret with Frank, their connection is built on the fact that they both understand each other’s darkness.

"I think Frank can tell. When Karen shot Wesley in Season 1 of Daredevil, there was a mention of some stuff that happened before she got to New York, and we don’t really know exactly what her deep dark past is. I like to say that Karen wears a disguise as much as Daredevil and Punisher do. The pretty blonde smiling girl is just a way of saying, 'Hey, don't look too deep, because you might not like what you find,' and I think Frank is capable of seeing past that. Karen certainly looks at him and says, 'Well, he takes justice into his own hands. I did that at least once, so I can’t just call him a monster.' She's a little more open to understanding him instead of writing him off."

"Frank coming back into her life is complicated but welcome, because here's an old friend."

The Punisher takes place after The Defenders, meaning that Karen is still reeling from the loss of Matt.

“She’s definitely very alone. Matt's not in the picture, Foggy's not in the picture, we don't know anything about her family but she's not involved with them, she hasn't had a date, she doesn't have a best friend, so this is someone who's really alone. Even the few people she does talk to don't really know who she is. Frank coming back into her life is complicated but welcome, because here's an old friend.”

Though she clearly adores Frank and Karen’s dynamic, Woll has mixed feelings about the possibility of a Frank/Karen romance (affectionately dubbed "Kastle" by fans).

“Jon and I certainly feel that there's room within that story to go there. But I also think as a woman, not every relationship with a man in the story has to be romantic. Frank’s whole plot line is about avenging the murders of his wife and children, who he loved desperately, and until he comes to some closure with that, I don't know that Karen can really step on those toes. I do think that there's affection and longing between them, and just how that manifests, we'll just have to see.”

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Woll’s Karen is not going to end up doing porn and on heroin, as she does in the comic books, but Daredevil Season 3 will delve into some darkness in her past.

“I’m not a huge fan of her trajectory in the comic books. I think there's an old-fashioned idea that the way to make a female character interesting is to sexually compromise her, and I don't know that we have to go down that path any longer. What I don't mind is allowing Karen to make a lot of big mistakes. One of the conversations that I had with our new showrunner on Daredevil, Erik Oleson, was that if we ever do delve into Karen’s past, please don’t make it that she shot someone while saving a busload of children. You know? I wanted to encourage him to make this difficult, make it something hard for her to get over, and so we can hopefully pull off something pretty interesting. I like the idea of compromising the character in some way, but I just don't know that it has to be sexual, or that it has to be in a way that causes her to lose her strength.”

"There's an old-fashioned idea that the way to make a female character interesting is to sexually compromise her."

When Karen gets into trouble, it’s because she got herself there, not because she’s a damsel in distress for a man.



“The best and most wonderful quality of Karen is her curiosity. She’s like a dog with a bone, for better or worse—obviously for better, she’s trying to take down people who are taking advantage, but for worse, it puts her in bad situations. But as long as I’m doing it to myself, as long as I’m not being kidnapped because I know Matt Murdock, but because I went after something, then that’s okay. That’s agency.”

Netflix debuts Marvel's The Punisher Season 1 November 17.

Emma Dibdin Contributor Emma Dibdin writes about television, movies, and podcasts, with coverage including opinion essays, news posts, episodic reviews and in-depth interviews with creatives.

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