LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Mr Tanner, thanks for being here.

LINDSAY TANNER, FORMER FINANCE MINISTER: Good evening, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: When I interviewed you right here last year, you declined to answer multiple questions about Kevin Rudd's demise, saying, "I'm not a kiss-and-tell kind of guy and my private views will remain my private views". What's changed?

LINDSAY TANNER: Mainly what's changed is some of the things that occurred early this year when some extreme and I think grossly exaggerated statements had been made by senior Labor figures about the management style of Kevin Rudd and how the Government actually operated in the period of 2007 to 2010. In my view it's important to correct the record. Although there were problems, there were issues, all governments, all administrations have weakness, and I think that in this case it's important to state that Labor, whether it likes it or not, has that government's record as part of its record and it's a record it should be proud of and it shouldn't be saying that this was a dysfunctional government. It wasn't.

LEIGH SALES: You obviously didn't think it was important to stand up for Kevin Rudd at that time when he could have done with it this year.

LINDSAY TANNER: I don't think anything that I would have said in February this year would have changed a single vote in that ballot, nor did I want to be a player in anything of that kind. All it would have done is add to what was already I think a very unfortunate set of circumstances that wasn't helpful to the Labor Party, but I do think it's important for these things to be put on the historical record.

LEIGH SALES: Given that you've now decided to break your silence about Kevin Rudd, let me ask: do you believe that the plan to oust him as Prime Minister happened spontaneously or was it something that was being plotted over months?

LINDSAY TANNER: Look, I honestly don't know, Leigh. I was the last person to wake up to what was going on. I was already halfway out the door. I was famously in a suburban Canberra pub watching Sky News saying that I was in the Prime Minister's office in crisis meetings at the time. So, I didn't know about these events unfolding until literally it was almost all over. So, I genuinely don't know.

LEIGH SALES: Do you believe that the plan to remove Kevin Rudd was foisted on Julia Gillard or do you believe she was part of it?

LINDSAY TANNER: Look, I've got no idea. But the only thing I'd say is that in general in politics people don't have things handed to them.

LEIGH SALES: So what are you suggesting?

LINDSAY TANNER: Well, I'm suggesting that by definition she was obviously involved. She'd put her hand up. But beyond that, I don't know.

LEIGH SALES: Could Kevin Rudd ever come back to the leadership given the way his reputation has now been thrashed by his own colleagues?

LINDSAY TANNER: Look, I don't know and I've ...

LEIGH SALES: Well what do you think?

LINDSAY TANNER: Well I don't know and I've avoided ...

LEIGH SALES: Well you've spent years in politics. You must have an assessment.

LINDSAY TANNER: No, I've spent years doing all kinds of things; that doesn't mean I have to comment on everything and I'm trying to avoid commenting on individuals because the key issue here, Leigh, is the absurdity of the endless political soap opera and the media obsession with the careers and the fortunes of individuals as if this is what really matters. What actually matters and what matters to the vast majority of Australians out there is issues. What politicians do, not who's up?, who's down?, who's better in the polls?, who might win?, who might lose? It's what governments and politicians are actually doing.

LEIGH SALES: I'd like to get your views on some of the Labor Party's current policies. Firstly, Afghanistan. 38 young Australian men have now lost their lives there. Is it in Australia's national interest to continue our involvement?

LINDSAY TANNER: I think there's huge question over this. I think it's difficult to justify Australia continuing to be in Afghanistan. I think there was a legitimate reason for the Coalition forces to go there initially in the wake of the September 11th attacks, but for a whole range of reasons I now think that we perhaps should have got out some time ago. I'd be open to hearing alternative points of view, but I think there is a big question mark there. Ultimately we're really only there to defend American prestige. That's a not a trivial thing. American prestige does matter for Australia and its national security interests, but ultimately there is a big question here as to whether it is right and reasonable for young Australians to be dying to defend American prestige. So, I think there is a big question here, and one of the things that amazes me, one of the things that I think is symptomatic of the problems with modern Labor is where is the debate about this? Where are the forces within the labour movement, within the Labor Party pressing for change in our approach to this issue?

LEIGH SALES: Well were you in this issue, pressing on it?

LINDSAY TANNER: I raised questions. But ultimately - and yes, I'd concede I wasn't somewhere out in the public domain raising these things. I did raise some questions and concerns from time to time. But ultimately, when you are part of the core team that's running the country, you are part of a team. You don't have the luxury of campaigning against your own government's policies. Now, I'm happy for people to debate whether I should have done things differently; I don't particularly mind. But to me the interesting thing is that from the wider labour movement, which consists of a lotta people who don't have those constraints, where is the campaign to change our policy on this? Where is the campaign to improve the level of unemployment benefits, a similar issue? Where are people who are jumping up and down about the prospect, that thankfully I think the Government will back away from, that we might have a media regulator that is actually gonna decide what is legitimate to publish in newspapers? All of these are issues that in years gone by you would have had serious public debate driven by people in the Labor Party, in the trade union movement. Now, there's not much sign of it.

LEIGH SALES: Given that right there you've criticised three major areas of Government policy, given your criticisms about the Labor Party's direction more broadly, the logical conclusion for one to make is that you think Julia Gillard is a poor Labor leader.

LINDSAY TANNER: No, I don't think there's any logic in that at all. In fact that is a ...

LEIGH SALES: Well, how can there not be logic in that?

LINDSAY TANNER: No, well, that is a classic non sequitur. It is possible to have a point of view that is different from somebody else's on a particular issue without thinking that they are a good leader, a bad leader or anything else.

LEIGH SALES: Really?

LINDSAY TANNER: Yes.

LEIGH SALES: So you think the direction of the Labor Party is disastrous. You think some of their policies are not effective. Yet you think that Julia Gillard's a great leader.

LINDSAY TANNER: I think we'd better re-run the tape. I don't recall saying that I think the Labor's Party's direction is disastrous. In fact ...

LEIGH SALES: You said that it's devoid of purpose, basically devoid of purpose. That's pretty disastrous.

LINDSAY TANNER: Well, firstly, that's about the Labor Party. Secondly, it's not about the Government per se. Thirdly, it is about a phenomenon that has been in place for the best part of 15 years or so, so it has been a gradually evolving problem. So to suggest that somehow this is owned by or caused by the current government or the government I was part of is fallacious.

LEIGH SALES: But when you as a former senior member of the Government, one of the key people in that Rudd gang of four refuse to endorse Julia Gillard's performance, the obvious conclusions people make, given your history with her as well, is that you think she's not doing a good job.

LINDSAY TANNER: Leigh, we're not on A Current Affair or Today/Tonight, I'm afraid here. You gotta be serious. I'm not ...

LEIGH SALES: These are serious questions. We're talking about the person who runs the nation.

LINDSAY TANNER: No, you're drawing a particular implication. This is similar to the headline in The Age that I copped during the election campaign: "Tanner refuses to deny". What I'm suggesting to you is that I am making no comment on individuals, about who should be the leader, about whether the current performance of any particular person is good, bad or indifferent. If you choose to draw any particular conclusions from that, that is your problem.

LEIGH SALES: But, really, really, Mr Tanner, are you going to sit here and try to claim the moral high ground when you're trashing a party that has given you a career for 25 years?

LINDSAY TANNER: Leigh, with respect, that is complete nonsense.

LEIGH SALES: You're not trashing the Labor Party?

LINDSAY TANNER: No.

LEIGH SALES: What are you doing then?

LINDSAY TANNER: I'm commenting first on defending the integrity of a good Labor government, the Rudd Government from 2007 to 2010, in response to some comments that have trashed it, or partly in response to that. And secondly raising some serious issues similar to issues that have been raised by Barry Jones recently, similar to issues that have been raised in the party review by John Faulkner, Bob Carr and Steve Bracks about Labor's long-term future and its loss of capability to generate serious political debate and ideas. That's ...

LEIGH SALES: How is it helpful - sorry, how is it helpful for you to do this now when Labor's finally been recovering in the polls and getting some focus on their policy agenda?

LINDSAY TANNER: Leigh, on that basis it is never helpful. I've heard that sorta refrain 100 times over the years. Whether it's with response to contributions I've made or others have made, it is always rubbish. It is always important for political parties to have serious debates and considerations about where they're heading, what their purpose is. And provided that this isn't a week before polling day, then these kinda debates have zero impact on the electoral fortunes of the political party concerned.

LEIGH SALES: What is your point about Julia Gillard?

LINDSAY TANNER: There isn't one.

LEIGH SALES: You've said that it was wrong that Kevin Rudd was dumped. So there's not a point about Julia - there's not a point about the person who replaced Kevin Rudd, even though you say that he shouldn't have been dumped?

LINDSAY TANNER: No. Not at all.

LEIGH SALES: Some your Labor colleagues today wouldn't share your view that what you're doing is being loyal to the Labor Party. The Labor MP Graham Perrett tweeted, "Every month it must stick in the craw of former Labor MP to draw down their pension while slagging of our great party". Does it stick, Mr Tanner?

LINDSAY TANNER: Well, you'd have to ask Graham that. That's what he said.

LEIGH SALES: Well, I'm asking you. Do you feel badly taking a pension that is yours because you were endorsed by the Labor Party for all those years while you're out publicly, as Mr Perrett puts it, "slagging off the great party"?

LINDSAY TANNER: Well, I think Graham's wrong and I think the people who do a disservice to the Labor Party are those who refuse to confront the challenging questions that the Labor Party faces. If you look at the origins of the big reform agendas that Labor ran in the '70s and '80s, those big reform agendas, whether they were Medicare, the schools commission, the Accord, occupational superannuation and so the list goes on, those things had their primary origins from within the labour movement. They were given by Labor Party members, by the trade union movement, the ACTU. Scroll forward to today and recent years and ask yourself: the good, big things that Labor's doing, where have they come from? And the answer is: not by and large from within the Labor Party. The point here is that the Labor Party is ceasing to be a proactive force, a proactive generator of big reform initiatives in the Australian political landscape. And, yes, the Labor governments are still doing good things, but essentially from a reactive posture. So, this kind of head-in-the-sand mentality that says we can't talk about anything I think is bad for Labor.

LEIGH SALES: Lindsay Tanner, thank you very much for coming in.

LINDSAY TANNER: Thank you very much.

LEIGH SALES: And for a longer 20-minute version of that interview with Lindsay Tanner, take a look at our website later.

You can also watch an extended version of this interview.