JS: Does it mean that all Bagua movements are designed in such a way that one must have Neigong first to be really able to use them? MR.MA: Exactly. Without Neigong all Bagua techniques are good for nothing and there is no use to practice them. For this reason I'm not willing to teach any techniques to students who do not have Internal Skill - it's waste of time for them and me. JS: I guess very few people can learn in this traditional way? MR.MA: Yes, practitioners often feel that walking exercise is very boring and give it up after some time. However once your Neigong develops, once the Small Heavenly Circle opens, the practice becomes very interesting. JS: Does Shaolin Boxing have similar methods? MR.MA: No, it does not. JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well? MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time. Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle. JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then... MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin (Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity. JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling that requirement? MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease. This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice - weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to make the decision to become like a monk for three years... JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)? MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years, Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem. JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill? MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday, without even one day of rest. JS: But in this way you did not sleep enough. You did not have enough rest. MR.MA: Correct practice is better than sleep. What you practice is Internal Skill, it nourishes your body. JS: You are almost 70 now. Do you still practice everyday? MR.MA: I get up early in the morning and practice for three hours, everyday. (Mr.Ma's wife added that he does it everyday no matter what the weather is, even on Chinese New Year, the most important festival in China) JS: Back in the 1960s did you practice any other exercises apart from walking in a circle? Some forms of sitting meditation or standing pole (Zhan Zhuang)? MR.MA: Sitting or standing meditation are for Neigong only. Walking practice is also called "Moving Pole" (Huo Zhuang/Xing Zhuang) and has very important advantage - it develops both Waigong (External Practice) and Neigong at the same time. When you walk in a circle, you nourish your Internal Qi every minute, you build it stronger and stronger. That's why walking in a circle is so important and at the same time so difficult to understand. JS: Did you learn and "Light Skill" (Qing Gong) as well? MR.MA: Walking in a circle develops "Light Skill". Once you reach a certain level you are able to walk without touching the ground. JS: How is that possible? MR.MA: The idea is to use your Dantian, waist, to move. I'm sitting here right now. If you want to attack me I can move fast forward without using legs, but by straightening the waist. (Mr.Ma made a demonstration - from a sitting position he was able to move fast very far forward before he touched the floor with his legs). JS: It all sounds and looks very mysterious... MR.MA: It is not mysterious at all, it's just a matter of skill, of hard practice. JS: How did it happen that people learnt about you? MR.MA: I learnt not only from Li Ziming but also from Han Lanyu (Wu Xing Chui expert, Bao Zhang's disciple), Guo Gumin (Baguazhang expert, Liang Zhenpu's disciple), "Tong Bei" Li, Han Qichang (of Mei Hua Zhuang). My teacher used to take me to all these teachers and usually I had to fight with their disciples. This is how people started to know about me... JS: I have heard that you also defeated one quite famous foreign martial artist? MR.MA: There was one foreigner, whose Xingyi was very good. He wanted to study with Li Ziming and become his disciple. Many of Li's students like Zhao Dayuan and Wang Tong were there. They all crossed hands with the foreigner and lost. His Xingyi was very impressive - when he demonstrated it, in the opening movement all his joints were cracking. His External Skill was really good, but his Internal Skill was not. He did not use his strength correctly - held it back in his own body, tensed his muscles too much, had no roots. JS: You mean one has to be relaxed when practicing Bagua?