Thouhastmail Profile Joined March 2015 Korea (North) 876 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 16:52:38 #1 http://game.xportsnews.com/?ac=article_view&entry_id=678635







JYP, current GSL commentator





It`s been two months since LotV released.



Though there weren`t many tournaments, we already had a couple of foreign tournaments like DH and qualifications for GSL and SSL. During this time, we`ve talked a lot about units and balance issues; Zerg became strong with its new midgame units, which led Solar to the championship of DH winter.



Many people assumed that Zerg would take the initiative. However, the winrate wasn`t broken thanks to the players' effort. Moreover, maps also contributed to the better balance; it seemed that the age of 'golden balance' had just begun.



And all these things were nothing but a hasty judgment; Adept, a new protoss unit, just messed up everything.



It`s not broken; It squashed the whole balance.







Adept is a new gateway unit. It costs 100/25 and deals additional damage to light armoured units. Psionic Transfer strengthens its mobility that enables it to scout. with WP`s ranged pickup, it can easily overpowers Terran at the beginning.



Adept`s +light damage and mobility makes Marine-Marauder useless. Though Zerg can advance its forces while protecting its bases with Spine Crawler, Terran must build bunkers and be passive whilst Protoss gets its third easily. Because of this, Terran`s opening strategies are limited.



Of course, Terran can counter WP-Adept strategy; if you choose Cyclone-Third or double barracks. However, If Protoss gives a little twist and expands aggressively, Terran cannot hold. Even if it's not expanding, Terran must be aware of other harasses like DT drops.



Frequent patches are not good for game, especially when it comes to SC2, a game with three races. However, that WP-Adept strategy makes the game too quick, unforgiving, one-sided - it needs immediate adjustment.











Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6. In HotS, Hellbat drops were re-balanced by requiring Hell-fire upgrades to Hellbat`s +light damage, which made it to hit 3 times to kill workers.



Like this, WP-Adept needs instant adjustment. However, this might cause serious problems against Zerg. Hence, I would like to suggest two options:



First, nerf WP`s ranged pickup. This makes it harder to abuse the strategy and makes time for Terran to be prepared.



Or, secondly, we can make Adept armoured; it enables Marauders to counter Adepts. We also can raise energy requirement for overcharge, which makes Protoss more passive.



Maybe we can adjust Psionic Transfer`s cooltime or nerf Adept`s dealing ability itself. However, this would drop the value of Adept itself, which causes big problems playing against Zerg.



Regardless of what we choose, it is certain that TVP is broken; it could harm the game`s reputation seriously. Though we can wait with the solution of progamers, we`re not sure how long it`ll take. What is worse, Blizzard also should consider the fact that they cannot adjust units based on one particular side of the game.



Balancing is a hard work. So, What will be Blizzard`s answer?



It`s been two months since LotV released.Though there weren`t many tournaments, we already had a couple of foreign tournaments like DH and qualifications for GSL and SSL. During this time, we`ve talked a lot about units and balance issues; Zerg became strong with its new midgame units, which led Solar to the championship of DH winter.Many people assumed that Zerg would take the initiative. However, the winrate wasn`t broken thanks to the players' effort. Moreover, maps also contributed to the better balance; it seemed that the age of 'golden balance' had just begun.And all these things were nothing but a hasty judgment; Adept, a new protoss unit, just messed up everything.It`s not broken; It squashed the whole balance.Adept is a new gateway unit. It costs 100/25 and deals additional damage to light armoured units. Psionic Transfer strengthens its mobility that enables it to scout. with WP`s ranged pickup, it can easily overpowers Terran at the beginning.Adept`s +light damage and mobility makes Marine-Marauder useless. Though Zerg can advance its forces while protecting its bases with Spine Crawler, Terran must build bunkers and be passive whilst Protoss gets its third easily. Because of this, Terran`s opening strategies are limited.Of course, Terran can counter WP-Adept strategy; if you choose Cyclone-Third or double barracks. However, If Protoss gives a little twist and expands aggressively, Terran cannot hold. Even if it's not expanding, Terran must be aware of other harasses like DT drops.Frequent patches are not good for game, especially when it comes to SC2, a game with three races. However, that WP-Adept strategy makes the game too quick, unforgiving, one-sided - it needs immediate adjustment.Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6. In HotS, Hellbat drops were re-balanced by requiring Hell-fire upgrades to Hellbat`s +light damage, which made it to hit 3 times to kill workers.Like this, WP-Adept needs instant adjustment. However, this might cause serious problems against Zerg. Hence, I would like to suggest two options:First, nerf WP`s ranged pickup. This makes it harder to abuse the strategy and makes time for Terran to be prepared.Or, secondly, we can make Adept armoured; it enables Marauders to counter Adepts. We also can raise energy requirement for overcharge, which makes Protoss more passive.Maybe we can adjust Psionic Transfer`s cooltime or nerf Adept`s dealing ability itself. However, this would drop the value of Adept itself, which causes big problems playing against Zerg.Regardless of what we choose, it is certain that TVP is broken; it could harm the game`s reputation seriously. Though we can wait with the solution of progamers, we`re not sure how long it`ll take. What is worse, Blizzard also should consider the fact that they cannot adjust units based on one particular side of the game.Balancing is a hard work. So, What will be Blizzard`s answer? "Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people we personally dislike"

deth Profile Blog Joined August 2009 Australia 1754 Posts #2 However, that WP-Adept strategy makes the game too quick, unforgiving, one-sided - it needs immediate adjustment.



Though we can wait with the solution of progamers, we`re not sure how long it`ll take. However that doesn't mean blizzard do things rashly.







Seems like a bit of a contradiction :S Seems like a bit of a contradiction :S

Thouhastmail Profile Joined March 2015 Korea (North) 876 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 10:16:42 #3 On January 07 2016 19:09 deth wrote:

Show nested quote +

However, that WP-Adept strategy makes the game too quick, unforgiving, one-sided - it needs immediate adjustment.



Show nested quote +

Though we can wait with the solution of progamers, we`re not sure how long it`ll take. However that doesn't mean blizzard do things rashly.







Seems like a bit of a contradiction :S Seems like a bit of a contradiction :S



He`s saying that though we need an immediate adjustment, Blizzard should choose the solution that doesn`t harm other balance issues.



↓ I do not think this article is well-organised, too. He`s saying that though we need an immediate adjustment, Blizzard should choose the solution that doesn`t harm other balance issues.↓ I do not think this article is well-organised, too. "Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people we personally dislike"

Nebuchad Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Switzerland 10153 Posts #4 I missed the part where he explains why it's so certain that TvP is broken and why it needs instant adjustment. "It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."

Timelog Profile Joined May 2015 Netherlands 57 Posts #5 Balancing is a hard work. So, What will be Blizzard`s answer?



Adept armor type changed from Light to Armored. (for now)

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20043317203 Adept armor type changed from Light to Armored. (for now) Terrible Starcraft 2 player, SC2 EU Battle.Net MVP and overall gaming enthousiast.

halomonian Profile Joined January 2012 Brazil 255 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 10:47:40 #6 Adept armor type changed from Light to Armored.

And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored. And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored. thoughts in chaos | enjOy[dream]

HellHound Profile Joined September 2014 Bulgaria 5962 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 11:08:18 #7 On January 07 2016 19:46 halomonian wrote:

Show nested quote +

Adept armor type changed from Light to Armored.

And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored. And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored.

rofl It's not like adepts are useful once lurkers are out anyway :D

Or like ZvP is balanced atm

He was saying that the change should be made carefully so that it does NOT affect pvz not that changing adept armor would affect pvz and proposed the armored change himself.

Don't misquote people pls rofl It's not like adepts are useful once lurkers are out anyway :DOr like ZvP is balanced atmHe was saying that the change should be made carefully so that it does NOT affect pvz not that changing adept armor would affect pvz and proposed the armored change himself.Don't misquote people pls Classic GosoO |sOs| Everyone has to give in, let Life win | Zest Is The Best | Roach Cultist | I recognize the might and wisdom of my Otherworldly overlord | Air vs Air 200/200 SC2 is best SC2 | PRIME has been robbed | Fuck prime go ST | ROACH ROACH ROACH

pure.Wasted Profile Blog Joined December 2008 Canada 4701 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 11:09:26 #8 On January 07 2016 19:13 Nebuchad wrote:

I missed the part where he explains why it's so certain that TvP is broken and why it needs instant adjustment.



What do you think this is, a conspiracy? An elaborate joke being played on poor ladder Protoss Joes? We're all just balance whining and we somehow got Korean commentators and Korean Protoss pros, who are using Adepts to place well in tournaments, to say publicly that Adepts are OP and need immediate fixing?



They're ridiculously strong A+move units that are capable of dealing game ending harass damage (equally so against mediocre Terrans as against the best Terrans in the world, there isn't a lot of skillful back and forth going on in Adept harass), that require little commitment, hard counter Terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, force Terran to scout very well while keeping a blind Protoss relatively safe from everything.



None of the things I wrote in that paragraph are good. Combined together, they are in fact very bad. It's remarkable that the unit got through beta and two months of release in this state when it was so blatantly clear to so many people that it was outright broken. What do you think this is, a conspiracy? An elaborate joke being played on poor ladder Protoss Joes? We're all just balance whining and we somehow got Korean commentators and Korean Protoss pros, who are using Adepts to place well in tournaments, to say publicly that Adepts are OP and need immediate fixing?They're ridiculously strong A+move units that are capable of dealing game ending harass damage (equally so against mediocre Terrans as against the best Terrans in the world, there isn't a lot of skillful back and forth going on in Adept harass), that require little commitment, hard counter Terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, force Terran to scout very well while keeping a blind Protoss relatively safe from everything.None of the things I wrote in that paragraph are good. Combined together, they are in fact very bad. It's remarkable that the unit got through beta and two months of release in this state when it was so blatantly clear to so many people that it was outright broken. INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you

Salteador Neo Profile Blog Joined August 2009 Andorra 5590 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 11:46:15 #9 On January 07 2016 19:46 halomonian wrote:

Show nested quote +

Adept armor type changed from Light to Armored.

And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored. And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored.



I still don't understand why lurkers have bonus vs armored, and it's not a small bonus either, it's like 33% of their damage against them (20+10).



Lurkers with something like flat 23-25 damage instead of that 20+10 would mean:



In ZvP they become better against zealots, HT and archons, worse against stalkers and immortals. Against adepts it depends if the change comes true, but anyway adepts suck against them. Might be an overall nerf which would be good.



In ZvT they become better against marines, mines and hellions, worse against marauders and tanks. Might be an overall buff because of marines, which would be good.



So basically, everything a lurker should be IMO.



In ZvZ they become better against lings, hydras and ravagers. Worse against roaches, ultras and... banelings? No idea if Lurkers see much play in this matchup atm anyway.



Edit: I agree nerfing the warp prism is much better than making adepts armored btw. The "op part" of the wp+adept combo is easily the warp prism. I still don't understand why lurkers have bonus vs armored, and it's not a small bonus either, it's like 33% of their damage against them (20+10).Lurkers with something like flat 23-25 damage instead of that 20+10 would mean:In ZvP they become better against zealots, HT and archons, worse against stalkers and immortals. Against adepts it depends if the change comes true, but anyway adepts suck against them. Might be an overall nerf which would be good.In ZvT they become better against marines, mines and hellions, worse against marauders and tanks. Might be an overall buff because of marines, which would be good.So basically, everything a lurker should be IMO.In ZvZ they become better against lings, hydras and ravagers. Worse against roaches, ultras and... banelings? No idea if Lurkers see much play in this matchup atm anyway.Edit: I agree nerfing the warp prism is much better than making adepts armored btw. The "op part" of the wp+adept combo is easily the warp prism. Revolutionist fan

Musicus Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 23384 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 11:35:12 #10 The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC). Maru and Serral are probably top 5.

Nebuchad Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Switzerland 10153 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 13:09:12 #11 On January 07 2016 20:08 pure.Wasted wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 07 2016 19:13 Nebuchad wrote:

I missed the part where he explains why it's so certain that TvP is broken and why it needs instant adjustment.



What do you think this is, a conspiracy? An elaborate joke being played on poor ladder Protoss Joes? We're all just balance whining and we somehow got Korean commentators and Korean Protoss pros, who are using Adepts to place well in tournaments, to say publicly that Adepts are OP and need immediate fixing?



They're ridiculously strong A+move units that are capable of dealing game ending harass damage (equally so against mediocre Terrans as against the best Terrans in the world, there isn't a lot of skillful back and forth going on in Adept harass), that require little commitment, hard counter Terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, force Terran to scout very well while keeping a blind Protoss relatively safe from everything.



None of the things I wrote in that paragraph are good. Combined together, they are in fact very bad. It's remarkable that the unit got through beta and two months of release in this state when it was so blatantly clear to so many people that it was outright broken. What do you think this is, a conspiracy? An elaborate joke being played on poor ladder Protoss Joes? We're all just balance whining and we somehow got Korean commentators and Korean Protoss pros, who are using Adepts to place well in tournaments, to say publicly that Adepts are OP and need immediate fixing?They're ridiculously strong A+move units that are capable of dealing game ending harass damage (equally so against mediocre Terrans as against the best Terrans in the world, there isn't a lot of skillful back and forth going on in Adept harass), that require little commitment, hard counter Terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, force Terran to scout very well while keeping a blind Protoss relatively safe from everything.None of the things I wrote in that paragraph are good. Combined together, they are in fact very bad. It's remarkable that the unit got through beta and two months of release in this state when it was so blatantly clear to so many people that it was outright broken.



They aren't a+move units, there is about as much skillful back and forth as there was with speedivac harass at the beginning of HotS, I don't know that this is terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, and the agressive player always has the advantage of scouting better than the defending one.



Besides n°1, you haven't answered the point anymore than JYP did, you've resorted to the same tactic of asserting something very loudly. Besides n°2, Blizzard is already studying protoss nerfs (and no equivalent protoss buff to account for the fact that they are nerfing one of the biggest sources of wins of a 48% race). You're going to be fine. They aren't a+move units, there is about as much skillful back and forth as there was with speedivac harass at the beginning of HotS, I don't know that this is terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, and the agressive player always has the advantage of scouting better than the defending one.Besides n°1, you haven't answered the point anymore than JYP did, you've resorted to the same tactic of asserting something very loudly. Besides n°2, Blizzard is already studying protoss nerfs (and no equivalent protoss buff to account for the fact that they are nerfing one of the biggest sources of wins of a 48% race). You're going to be fine. "It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."

DarkPlasmaBall Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United States 38907 Posts #12 Can't Blizzard just let the Adept's shade be attacked (perhaps for a low amount of damage, like 1/2 or 1/3 of the damage that would normally be taken by the Adept) instead of having it be invincible? Wouldn't that be helpful towards balance? "There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100

Heartland Profile Blog Joined May 2012 Sweden 24411 Posts #13 Thank you for touching our race JYP

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #14 On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote:

The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).

pretty much. pretty much.

Timelog Profile Joined May 2015 Netherlands 57 Posts #15 On January 07 2016 22:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:

Can't Blizzard just let the Adept's shade be attacked (perhaps for a low amount of damage, like 1/2 or 1/3 of the damage that would normally be taken by the Adept) instead of having it be invincible? Wouldn't that be helpful towards balance?

That would nerf it in all match-ups while it really only is a big problem in TvP. I think the option given by JYP make sense, and it seems as Blizzard agrees (see my earlier post). That would nerf it in all match-ups while it really only is a big problem in TvP. I think the option given by JYP make sense, and it seems as Blizzard agrees (see my earlier post). Terrible Starcraft 2 player, SC2 EU Battle.Net MVP and overall gaming enthousiast.

lichter Profile Blog Joined September 2010 1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL 22233 Posts #16 i wonder if anyone can spot me in that last picture Administrator YOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS

Cascade Profile Blog Joined March 2006 Australia 5405 Posts #17 According to the aligulac stats , the big broken things that needs to be fixed is Z > P.

DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 14:35:19 #18 Change it from 23 vs light to 22 vs light and it no longer 2 shots scvs and marines pre combat shields.



It's a nerf that only impacts PvT until combat shields are done. Minimal impact to PvZ.





Although, once Photon Overcharge is nerfed my guess is that the Adept nerf won't be needed anyway since Protoss will need more units back home and won't be able to harass w Adepts as much. And if they do they won't be able to expand as fast.



"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

Tenks Profile Joined April 2010 United States 3104 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 14:37:45 #19 On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote:

The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).



Maybe make it so the range as it is right now and the ability to quickly warp in are tied to a support bay tech? I *do* like what the WP does to the game but getting it in such a powerful state and for only minerals in the early game is a bit much. Maybe make it so the range as it is right now and the ability to quickly warp in are tied to a support bay tech? I *do* like what the WP does to the game but getting it in such a powerful state and for only minerals in the early game is a bit much. Wat

DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-07 14:46:41 #20 On January 07 2016 23:37 Tenks wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote:

The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).



Maybe make it so the range as it is right now and the ability to quickly warp in are tied to a support bay tech? I *do* like what the WP does to the game but getting it in such a powerful state and for only minerals in the early game is a bit much. Maybe make it so the range as it is right now and the ability to quickly warp in are tied to a support bay tech? I *do* like what the WP does to the game but getting it in such a powerful state and for only minerals in the early game is a bit much.



To get the warp prism early enough to do the kind of damage we're talking about you have to rush robo and warp prism and that's 400/100 invested in stuff that doesn't attack or do any damage.



If Protoss wasn't so safe behind endless Photon Overcharge you wouldn't have a problem because if they did that you could just make a bunch of units and attack them.



But the fact that they CAN do that AND also take a third at the same time and be perfectly safe means that PO is too strong.



Blizzard should be careful not to nerf too many things at once, but they need to do something.



Also, ZvP is completely broken. To get the warp prism early enough to do the kind of damage we're talking about you have to rush robo and warp prism and that's 400/100 invested in stuff that doesn't attack or do any damage.If Protoss wasn't so safe behind endless Photon Overcharge you wouldn't have a problem because if they did that you could just make a bunch of units and attack them.But the fact that they CAN do that AND also take a third at the same time and be perfectly safe means that PO is too strong.Blizzard should be careful not to nerf too many things at once, but they need to do something.Also, ZvP is completely broken. "Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

1 2 3 4 5 Next All