Greg Koch is loud and he recognizes not only the power of his voice but the platform he has to use it on.

If there were a Mount Rushmore of craft beer, the co-founder and executive chairman of California brewing behemoth Stone Brewing would be on it. One should expect nothing less from the country's ninth-largest craft brewery, developer of such offerings as Arrogant Bastard strong ale and its flagship West Coast-style IPA, and from the man who considers himself to be a soldier in the craft beer revolution.

Nowadays, most of Koch's energy is devoted to strengthening the foundation of craft beer and waging a never-ending battle against "big beer."

"We know that we have to fight for a choice, because what big beer wants to do is remove choice," Koch said on a recent visit to Rochester, where he also dished on Stone's early struggles, its expansion to Germany and the future of craft beer. "(Big beer) wants to homogenize and cheapen."

What follows here is an abridged transcript of that conversation:

Will Cleveland: Do you ever have any amazement at what Stone has become ... this iconic craft beer brand? I mean, when you started this thing in 1996, did you ever envision it becoming this international craft behemoth?

Greg Koch: That would’ve been beyond my expectations, anticipation or dreams. I came from the music industry. I came from rock ‘n’ roll. I’m very heavily influenced by a rock ‘n’ roll ethos. I would always think to myself and I was actually using this thought process when we were starting Stone, what bands stand the test of time and why? Whether it’s the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin or U2 or Metallica or the Grateful Dead, they are all very, very different. They are all iconic and have stood the test of time, because they all followed their own muse. They were always at their best when they weren’t trying to please people other than themselves and their own style.

We’re here to do our thing and we hope other people love it, too. But ultimately, it’s up to us to decide what to do, and you can decide for yourself if you like it or not. If you don’t, we’re not going to change for you. It’s always the worst when an artist modifies their art to try to please a wider range of people. I think it’s OK to recognize that you won’t please everybody. Beer can be art when it is at its best and art is best when it has a point of view. So I like beer with a point of view.

WC: What drew you to beer? Why was it something you wanted to devote your life to?

GK: I had my first beer epiphany in 1987 when I had an Anchor Steam for the first time. I was living in downtown L.A. and it was this little hole-in-the-wall called Al’s Bar. It just so happened that they had Anchor Steam on tap. I had never had any beer like that before. I had two reactions. One, I was elated to see that beer could actually taste like that. My other reaction was that I was angry because I realized at that moment that all of my previous beer-drinking years had been stolen from me by the lies of The Man telling me that other stuff was beer.

I felt compelled to join the revolution, to fight for people’s access to great beer, my own included. Collectively as an industry, we’ve been successful beyond my wildest dreams. But we are always going to continue to fight for access to the marketplace because the Man wants to have us go the other direction. They want to own it, they want to obfuscate, they want to control, and they want to play by a different set of rules.

WC: How does Stone adapt? What do you do to remain relevant?

GK: By focusing on the things we enjoy the most about craft brewing. That’s what has always gotten us along pretty well. It’s no secret that we’re the purists, zealots, like to push the boundaries. Since that is such a natural part of our personalities, as we grow, we retain it, because it’s who we are. Dynamics change a little bit as you grow.

WC: Why expand your brand into Berlin? Isn't there enough room for growth in this country? Or enough challenges?

GK: I guess I am a glutton for punishment. I mentioned how when we opened in San Diego 21 years ago, nobody was lining up and asking for our beer. It’s the exact same thing in Berlin. The local populace is generally uninterested in our beer. Right now, it’s just the weirdos like us who drink craft beer. Everybody else just thinks it’s kind of strange.

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WC: Did you just want to be the first American craft brewery to operate (in Berlin)?

GK: The old phrase, "Why do things the easy way, when you can do them the hard way?" I’m a bit a Europhile. I believe people should have access to great beer. That’s been our mantra from the very beginning. Just helping provide choice, which is now a thing that we commonly accept and expect here in the U.S. and the better beer cities. You just have to remember back to a time when it wasn’t a thing. You had to sort of push that boulder up the hill. I guess I am just a boulder-pusher by nature.

WC: There is obviously a huge battle being waged right now between independent —

GK: Good and evil. (Laughs.)

WC: You know exactly what I am going to ask. Why is it so important to support and fight for independent craft beer?

GK: There are a couple of basic fundamental things at play. For folks like me that remember the dark times or just the fact that I was in Toronto two days ago, big industrial beer actively fights against access to market, access to freedom of choice. To the casual consumer, they don’t always see that. But anybody inside the industry knows about the obstructing. We know that we have to fight for a choice, because what big beer wants to do is remove choice. They want to homogenize and cheapen.

There are two fundamental different business models between commodity industrial and artisanal. Artisanal is independently controlled. It is, by its nature, art. It doesn’t always make business decisions that are focused strictly on the bottom line. Commodity industrial has fewer choices. I’ll make the joking reference of good vs. evil, but I’m not going to suggest that publicly held companies are evil. The fact of the matter is that they are limited in the kinds of activities they can do. They have a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. They are legally required to do that. Commodity industrial isn’t allowed to act artisanal.

WC: How do you see the future of craft beer playing out? Be Nostradamus: Do you see continued growth, plateauing or attrition?

GK: We were born in 1996, which was the year the first bubble burst in craft beer. We were born in the lean times when nobody was interested. It looked like craft beer had a very shaky foundation. I’ve seen it go through that. I think we may be headed toward another shift. It may not be super pleasant for some. Arguably we may look back and discover that we’re actually in the middle of it right now, or some point of it right now.

I have always believed in people’s tastes, good tastes. I have an unrealistically positive view of the future. I’m an entrepreneur and I believe we can still write the future. I think we have a lot of power. We just have to continue to push that boulder up the hill.

WCLEVELAND@Gannett.com

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