michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: For decades, despite a swirl of allegations around him, Michael Jackson earned the world’s admiration, bewilderment and pity. Times culture critic Wesley Morris on the moment that ended for him. It’s Friday, March 8. Wesley, this is the second time in two weeks that we had you on to talk about culture.

wesley morris

I know. Aren’t you sick of me already?

michael barbaro

Not at all.

wesley morris

O.K.

michael barbaro

What do we need to talk about this week?

wesley morris

It’s probably “Leaving Neverland,” this Michael Jackson documentary.

archived recording

Not a trailer or even a single clip of this new documentary has been released ahead of its debut today, but that has not slowed the buzz behind it.

wesley morris

I became aware of this movie as it was making its way towards Sundance in January.

archived recording (speaker 1)

It’s probably right now the most talked about film at Sundance.

archived recording (speaker 2)

One of the hottest tickets at Sundance is also one of the most controversial.

wesley morris

I also knew on the other hand that there were these camps of people who were going to try to stop the movie from being screened, because, well, because it’s about Michael Jackson. And it’s about some terrible things that Michael Jackson is being accused of having done.

archived recording

This morning, police in Utah preparing for possible protests at the Sundance Film Festival.

wesley morris

And there is a strong camp of Michael Jackson fans and supporters that do not want lies, in their eyes, spread about him.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Heightened police presence in Park City this morning.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Following reports of death threats against the director of the doc.

archived recording (speaker 3)

The film about the beloved icon so contentious police are on high alert and bracing for protests.

archived recording (speaker 2)

The Jackson estate has denounced the documentary as defamatory.

wesley morris

And before the movie even got there, before anyone had even seen it, there was this sense that it was going to be controversial, because it was going to force us to reassess our relationship with Michael Jackson.

michael barbaro

And what about you? How are you approaching the idea of this movie?

wesley morris

With dread. I mean, I knew I was going to watch it. But I also knew that I was bringing with me some dread. I loved Michael Jackson as a kid. And it wasn’t just so much that I loved the music, although there was that. I loved looking at Michael Jackson. I loved how fascinating his physical appearance was. And I can’t go back to being a 7-, 8-, 9-, 10-year-old —

michael barbaro

Can you try just for a minute?

wesley morris

I mean, I can go back to telling you stories about that.

michael barbaro

Place me a little bit in the life of the young Wesley Morris.

wesley morris

Well, I grew up poor in Philadelphia. And we didn’t have a lot of money, but we had a lot of money for Michael Jackson. We bought — we bought “Thriller.” I think we had two copies of “Thriller,” because one got warped. And I was lucky enough to —

michael barbaro

That’s not O.K.

wesley morris

That? Well, no. I mean, I can remember sitting — the album would fold out. And it’s Michael Jackson lying down in what can only be called a Sears photo studio portrait pose. He’s wearing a white suit with a black shirt. And he’s got a tiger on his knee. A tiger cub. And his hair’s really curly, and his nose is straighter than any black person’s nose I had ever seen. He’s got these big, bright eyes. I just was so drawn to how perfect-looking this person was.

michael barbaro

How present was this attachment to Michael Jackson at this tender age?

wesley morris

Well, I assume that everybody felt this way about Michael Jackson. I assume that everybody had bought a copy of “Thriller.” And, you know, I’d go to people’s houses and be like, wait, where’s “Thriller“? I mean, nobody wants this Kenny Rogers record. Where’s “Thriller“? My dad took me somewhere and before we got to the house once, he’s like, Wesley, no. You are not going near the albums this time. And you’re not asking about Michael Jackson. And I just remember thinking that he was the most important person in the world. So there is looking at Michael Jackson, and then there is experiencing Michael Jackson. And that experience I had with the album cover — the album would have been out for about a year.

archived recording

[CHEERING]

wesley morris

It’s 1983. And I’m watching this “Motown 25” special, which is a gathering of all of Motown’s greatest artists. And at some point —

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

The Jacksons come out, and they’re all together. All the grown brothers — they’re performing. They do their most famous songs. Motown is basically paying tribute to itself.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

And then at some point, they thank everybody. They leave the stage. And Michael Jackson stays behind.

archived recording (michael jackson)

Oh, you’re beautiful. Those were magic moments. All my brothers, including Jermaine.

wesley morris

He tells the audience —

archived recording (michael jackson)

I like those songs a lot.

wesley morris

I like the old hits, but —

archived recording (michael jackson)

But especially, I like the new songs. [MUSIC]

wesley morris

Fasten your seat belts, basically — here comes the next 50 years. It was just a new sound. It pulled in rock. It pulled in African rhythms. And he is leaping onto his toes. He is swinging his leg up in kind of what I can only call, like, a chicken flap.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

And at some point, after you see all this other dancing that you’ve never really seen done in quite this way before, he starts gliding backwards. And now we know that this backward glide is called the moonwalk. I was in my mother’s bedroom watching this, and I could remember just sitting there in just absolute awe. You could feel it as you watched it. This man was changing everything. In terms of historical American events, you know, on the one hand, you have the moon landing. And then you have the moonwalk. And I would argue there’s probably no other artist who is as important to where popular music currently is than Michael Jackson.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

You can hear him actually sampled in other people’s music. You can hear other artists who’ve built entire careers — artists you probably wouldn’t even have if there was no Michael Jackson.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

Justin Timberlake.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

The Weeknd.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

Britney Spears.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

Bruno Mars.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

I mean, there’s just, like, a foundational, elemental aspect to the way he changed what music sounded like, and how we responded. Like, the dancing that we do is in some ways, many ways, Michael Jackson dancing.

archived recording

[MUSIC]

wesley morris

So I’m thinking about all of this as I am dragging myself through the winter weather to go watch this movie.

michael barbaro

That’s a lot to carry with you into a screening, a movie theater — your childhood, all of American culture. That’s not nothing.

wesley morris

No, it’s not nothing. But it’s weird, though, because I carry it with me all the time. The reason that it was so heavy — and I think the reason that a lot of people are experiencing this heaviness and this dread about this movie — is like, I’m carrying around baggage I didn’t even know I had. And then all of a sudden, it feels like baggage. You know, it feels like this thing you’ve been lugging around with you all these years, this love of Michael Jackson. And now, like, this rocket ship to bliss? That is not an easy thing to be willing to let go of.

michael barbaro

Well, talk me through this. You have to sit down and watch this movie.

wesley morris

Yeah.

michael barbaro

Where did you watch it?

wesley morris

The first time I watched it, I watched it in an office. It was basically a conference room at HBO. They showed me the movie. I was alone in a nice little corner conference room with a TV, and you know, it was me and my notepad. And all my baggage. And it was funny, because I watched it by myself, and I realized once I was there and the door was closed and this thing was starting that I didn’t want to be there anymore. I just, I looked around, and I’m like, I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to do it! But, you know, I’m a professional. What does it look like if I open the door and ask if we can stop? Can we stop? But the ride had already left the bay. So I stayed. And I watched the whole thing, all four hours.

michael barbaro

And what’s the first thing that you noticed about the film?

wesley morris

Oh, my god, it’s so quiet. It’s really quiet.

archived recording

I think when I was with him, he was happy. He was at the peak of his creativity, and he was at the peak of his success.

wesley morris

So a lot of string music. But what you really are aware of is just that you’re going to hear two people and the people in their lives talk about their relationship to Michael Jackson.

archived recording

He was already larger than life. And then he likes you.

michael barbaro

And who are these two people?

wesley morris

One of them is Wade Robson.

archived recording

Wade won a dancing competition this week on Thursday Night in — Wade Robson met Michael Jackson as a Michael Jackson impersonator. I started to like Michael, and I started copying the moves, and that’s how I started dancing.

wesley morris

I would say the best one I have ever seen in my life. I’m talking about, like, a six-year-old kid.

michael barbaro

Wow.

archived recording

I want to be a star and keep everybody happy while I’m doing it.

wesley morris

He was good early. And the other is James Safechuck —

archived recording

Michael?

wesley morris

— who began as a child actor. He was cast in a Michael Jackson commercial.

archived recording

Mr. Jackson?

wesley morris

And that’s how they met.

archived recording

Looking for me?

wesley morris

I was prepared for this movie to begin with the allegations, right? I was prepared for them to just be like, here’s what Michael Jackson did. But that’s not really how it goes.

archived recording

We went into the closet. We’re looking at his stuff. And he told me I can pick out a jacket. I could have that. It would be mine. I picked the “Thriller” jacket.

wesley morris

How it goes is each person who speaks speaks as though they’re in the present moment that they’re speaking about.

archived recording (speaker 1)

And I took it home. I wore it to the grocery store.

archived recording (speaker 2)

It felt great. Out of all the kids in the world, he chose me to be his friend. And he’s holding my hand.

wesley morris

I was really struck by how even though you know what’s coming — and this is sort of a comfort in a way for, I don’t know, I would imagine for lots of people who were dreading watching this movie — they’re talking about, as children, how much they loved Michael Jackson.

archived recording

The days were filled with playing tag, watching movies. He taught me how to do the moonwalk.

wesley morris

They got to do the thing that I sat on my living room floor —

michael barbaro

Dreaming about.

wesley morris

Dreaming about.

archived recording

I came on at the end of the song “Bad.” I had a “Bad” outfit on that was just like his.

wesley morris

It seemed as a kid so fun, being one of the kids in Michael Jackson’s orbit.

archived recording

And so I would dance. We side-moonwalked and did a few moves together.

wesley morris

I got to relive that for a little tiny bit. And then they start talking about the turn the relationship takes into a sexual relationship.

archived recording

I was seven, seven years old, when this began.

michael barbaro

And what do they describe? And I recognize that these are really traumatic memories that they’re talking about.

wesley morris

Well, I mean, all kinds of things that are graphic in nature — masturbation, oral sex, lots of kissing — and you also learn how Michael Jackson was kind of fostering these relationships and keeping the boys close to him.

archived recording (speaker 1)

You know, he started talking about how much he loves me. What this is is us, how we show our love for each other. That the other people are ignorant, and they’re stupid, they’d never understand. If they ever found out what we were doing, about this sexual stuff, that he and I would be pulled apart, and that we’d never be able to see each other again. And that he and I would go to jail for the rest of our lives.

archived recording (speaker 2)

You start to think that your parents are bad and that Michael is good.

michael barbaro

So you’re seeing the mechanisms by which he is creating proximity and loyalty to these boys.

wesley morris

There’s a kind of choreography at work here. You also learn that Michael told them not to go to school, that he would be the person who would teach the kids things. The psychological gamesmanship that he deployed in these relationships is also shocking.

archived recording (james safechuck)

You know, I liked jewelry, and I liked it as a kid, and I think that —

wesley morris

And eventually, you get to this point where James Safechuck is telling this story about Michael Jackson taking him shopping for rings. And —

michael barbaro

Rings?

wesley morris

Yeah, like wedding rings. Like, we’re going to get married rings.

archived recording (james safechuck)

And the ring is nice. It has a row of diamonds with a gold band.

wesley morris

You know, there’s always a moment whenever I’m watching or listening or reading anything — you’re waiting for this moment for something in you to change. And for me, it was the story about these rings.

archived recording (james safechuck)

We would go buy them at jewelry stores.

wesley morris

Basically, Michael Jackson and James Safechuck go to a jewelry store. The assumption is that Michael’s going to buy James a ring, and Michael’s going to have his own ring. And they’re going to exchange rings and vows.

michael barbaro

Adult and child.

wesley morris

Yes. Adult and child. And at some point during this purchase, the salesperson, I don’t know, probably seems a little bit skeptical, and Michael Jackson says that the purchase is, oh, it’s for a woman. It’s for a woman.

archived recording (james safechuck)

And we would pretend like they were for somebody else and — for a female. But we’d pretend like my small hand fit whatever female we were buying it for. Yeah.

wesley morris

You know in this moment that Michael Jackson knows the difference between right and wrong, because he lies.

archived recording (james safechuck)

My hands are shaking just holding them.

wesley morris

Now, James, by the way, in this moment in the movie, is holding the ring. He’s got an adult hand now, because he’s a grown man. And the ring won’t fit over his finger, because it’s a child’s ring.

archived recording (james safechuck)

We had this mock wedding ceremony. We did this in his bedroom. And we filled out some vows. It’s like we’re bonded forever. It felt good.

wesley morris

I don’t know, man. I really, really, really was not prepared for that.

michael barbaro

So in that moment, your vision of Michael Jackson is what? Is shattered? Is altered? Ruined?

wesley morris

It’s definitely changed. And it’s definitely complicated. I remember writing down in my notebook, this is it. This is — this is — I’m out. I’m out.

michael barbaro

Out of what?

wesley morris

I’m out of the Michael Jackson house. And it’s not — it’s more complicated than that. But that is definitely the moment that makes it hard to make excuses, right? I think for me, the plausible deniability way of living with Michael Jackson gets really, really tough.

michael barbaro

I wonder why this moment shattered you, because these allegations against Michael Jackson have been floating around now for decades.

wesley morris

Oh, man. I think because for a long time, Michael Jackson controlled this story. He had all the power.

archived recording (michael jackson)

The press has made up so much god-awful, horrifying stories that are completely appalling. Completely appalling.

wesley morris

So, with the first set of allegations in 1993, he winds up talking to Oprah Winfrey in a hugely watched, desperately anticipated television interview. And I mean, she does everything she can do.

archived recording (oprah winfrey)

Is your skin lighter because you don’t like being black? Did he ever beat you? Do you go out? Do you date?

wesley morris

She asks all the questions.

archived recording (oprah winfrey)

Are you pleased now with the way you look?

archived recording (michael jackson)

I’m never pleased with anything. I’m a perfectionist. It’s part of who I am.

wesley morris

And he’s got some kind of answer for it. And I think that we really, really wanted to believe him.

michael barbaro

And what’s the story he tells?

wesley morris

Well, the story he tells is like, I like kids. I was lonely. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with my relationship with children.

archived recording (michael jackson)

People wonder why I always have children around. Because I find the thing that I never had through them. You know, Disneyland, amusement parks, arcade games. I adore all that stuff, because when I was little, it was always work, work, work, from one concert to the next.

wesley morris

The story he told Oprah was the story we wanted and the thing that would let us keep going back and listening to “Dangerous,” which was the album that he had out at the time. It made it a lot easier to go back to regularly scheduled programming.

michael barbaro

He told a story that fit into our story of him, which is a lonely man who, at his core, is still a boy.

wesley morris

Yeah, that’s the story of Michael Jackson.

archived recording (michael jackson)

There were times when I had great times with my brothers — pillow fights and things. But I was always — I used to always cry from loneliness.

archived recording (oprah winfrey)

You did?

archived recording (michael jackson)

Yes.

archived recording (oprah winfrey)

Beginning at what age?

archived recording (michael jackson)

Oh, very little. Eight, nine.

wesley morris

It was — this is clearly a person who is suffering and has been damaged in some way.

archived recording (oprah winfrey)

What do you want the world to know about you most? I asked Liz that of you. What do you want them to know?

archived recording (michael jackson)

To be loved. I just simply want to be loved, wherever I go. All over the world, because I love people of all races, from my heart, with true affection.

wesley morris

I think that the difference between what happens in that initial conversation with Oprah Winfrey and what’s happening in this movie is that it’s a wresting of control of the narrative, right? It is these two men telling you what happened to them. And you take their stories, and you put them alongside Michael Jackson’s, and you sit with it. And I’d been waiting for somebody to come along and tell me a story that I could sit alongside Michael Jackson’s to confirm a suspicion that I had had all this time and didn’t want to acknowledge. That I was carrying around all this stuff all these years and not really knowing what to do with it.

michael barbaro

Wesley, will this film and the revelations that it contains, will this change the legacy of Michael Jackson?

wesley morris

Yes. I think the people who want to hear the stories these men are telling, I think the people who watch this movie, I think the people who’ve ambiently suspected that something like what’s alleged in this movie happened — those people will think about Michael Jackson in a different way. But Michael Jackson’s legacy is bigger than Michael Jackson, right? Michael Jackson is this human being who made stuff that is way bigger than he is. And that stuff is so much a part of the culture, like, on an atomic level. Right? It can’t be extracted. We can’t cancel Michael Jackson, because canceling Michael Jackson means canceling America in some way.

michael barbaro

Canceling some part of ourselves?

wesley morris

Like, a huge part of not just our love of music, but our sense of who we are as a people. I mean, the tragic thing about Michael Jackson is an American tragic thing. It is a story about race. It is a story about growing up poor and becoming extremely rich. It is a story about sexuality and gender and racial transformation in your physical body. I think that he means too much to delete or cancel. I mean, you make one thing go away, but you’re still dealing with all this other stuff. I just feel like he’s so much bigger than what he physically was. And I think the stories these men are telling need to go in the space that we culturally have been waiting to put a story like this in, based on everything we already knew about Michael Jackson.

michael barbaro

Wesley, it has felt to me like, with these other #MeToo stories, there’s been a very clear path to follow. Somebody should get fired. They do get fired. Somebody should go to jail. They do go to jail.

wesley morris

Oh, I see where you’re going.

michael barbaro

Somebody gets justice. But that can’t happen here. Michael Jackson is dead.

wesley morris

And he’s been tried and acquitted.

michael barbaro

And you can’t, as you just said, cancel his influence. So what could change?

wesley morris

Well, he can’t change, because he’s dead. The music can’t change, because it’s already been made and we’ve thoroughly absorbed it. I think the thing that has to change is us. We can change. But I also wonder whether or not the thing that we should be taking away from this entire problem with respect to Michael Jackson and Wade Robson and James Safechuck is this concept of justice. There’s no satisfying outcome for this. This is a tragedy. And we have to accept it as a tragedy. And I don’t think the way we accept a tragedy is by covering our ears when you hear a Michael Jackson song. We’re past that now. I think what we have to do is figure out a way to live with a thing that we’ve been living with this entire time. We have to be able to hold space that incorporates the bad stuff with the great stuff. It’s the only way this is going to work, because this is not going to stop happening. And it’s obviously not just famous people, it’s everybody. It’s coaches, it’s priests, it’s politicians. It doesn’t work to just make people go away and not deal with the root problem of this behavior. And I think with Michael Jackson — I think that the reason the “what do we do now?” is so dissatisfying is because there’s nothing to do but listen and move through the world aware that this person did this. And it can’t be undone. These guys don’t get their childhoods back. There’s no jail to put this man in. There’s no place to send him. And the work is on us. And I think part of the reason that people want either an easy answer or don’t want to know anything is because we don’t want to do the work. It’s hard work.

michael barbaro

The work of just living with it.

wesley morris

The hard work of trauma. And that’s what we’re talking about. That’s just called being a human being.

michael barbaro

Wesley, thank you very much once again for coming in.

wesley morris

Thanks for having me.

michael barbaro