19:03:30 Apple Master: Ok well first of all thanks to all those who are here. Today we don't have a huge agenda, - basically 4 items. State of the Game, Staff

Appreciation, Tutorial Project and Wiki project. After that we'll have any other busines s- so if people remember something they wanna talk about, DM me and we'll

19:03:30 Apple Master: sort it out.

19:03:56 Apple Master: Obviously we have some things going on (like the ERP proposal, and nominations) but I would prefer if we left those discussions to their topics

19:04:06 Apple Master: Just to keep it simple

19:04:21 Apple Master: So first item: State of the game/server

19:04:42 Apple Master: How's everyone feeling at the moment, how do you think we're doing generally, are there any huge issues we need to solve, etc

19:04:57 mkalash: alreaaady

19:05:21 SiegDerMaus: I feel like things are going well thus far. With the Torch on track generally in its development. I am, however, concerned about the many proposals

in the works that I, personally, feel will have only a negative impact.

19:05:33 Daaneesh: I do think there are some issues, mostly with the lack of motivation a lot of staff seem to have for doing a lot of things (like going on the server,

or the forums.. etc)

19:05:59 ThatOneGuy: I think that we've semi-fallen into a state of stagnation in both staff and community, with almost anything aimed at fixing major issues either

falling into thread limbo or being torn apart before the final shape can be made

19:06:17 Shadow_Of_Man: On a personal level I am way more invested in the game now, playing more often etc, so that's good. In terms of generally I think we are doing

quite well, I've noticed far less of the new players that were creating such a big problem at the beginning of the Torch introduction, and people seem to be

19:06:17 Shadow_Of_Man: settling more into how it should be played (Even Marines!)

19:06:46 ZeroBits: I think we're doing pretty well, however, I do have some concerns regarding current proposals, and I do think that development has stagnated. Other

than that though, the server is still fun to play, and things have been going pretty well.

19:06:53 SiegDerMaus: I agree with SOM there. The "marine problem" has kind of solved itself. I've not seen evidence of it in a very long time, in terms of handling stuff

in game or handling player complaints

19:08:10 ZeroBits: The only huge issue I think needs solving is how long it's taking Psi to re-review my PR >:I

19:08:16 Apple Master: snrk

19:08:29 Apple Master: I mean don't staff motivation and "stagnation" tie in to each other quite heavily anyway though?

19:08:41 ZeroBits: definitely.

19:08:47 Apple Master: Even though stagnation is a buzzword thrown about by those that can't actually diagnose a problem.

19:09:02 Asanadas: Staff animosity is a better phrase

19:09:07 SiegDerMaus: Well, I have an excuse, since I just got Stellaris and Fallout 4 for my birthday... I may disappear for long periods of time :p

19:09:51 ThatOneGuy: There wasn't a better word to use :\

19:10:03 Daaneesh: I've been trying to come up with ideas as to how we can start helping the staff to be more motivated, there were a few ideas thrown at me, but mostly

things that are pretty big projects that would need a bit of time to implment.

19:10:03 Daaneesh: If people have any suggestions please say so

19:10:06 Meyar: Yes, people bitching at eachother and being grr has been an issue

19:10:29 ThatOneGuy: ^

19:11:22 ZeroBits: Honestly, I think we should really just remember that, even if we do have differing opinions on some matters, we are all on the same team here, and we

all have the same goal, making the server a more enjoyable place for everyone.

19:11:37 Apple Master: That's a nice sentiment but people say that everytime this is bought up

19:11:49 Apple Master: And frankly I think some staff probably would prefer the server was more enjoyable for them

19:11:54 Shadow_Of_Man: ^

19:11:56 Apple Master: And not hte elusive "everyone"

19:11:59 Shadow_Of_Man: I was about to say

19:12:08 Shadow_Of_Man: Like, I think the biggest thing for me stopping playing

19:12:09 Daaneesh: I mean, staff have literally retired because they had no motivation

19:12:10 Shadow_Of_Man: Was Torch

19:12:25 Daaneesh: Not saying who, but there is enough that it is a worrying thing

19:12:26 Apple Master: Motivation isn't a cause of retiremnt though

19:12:31 Apple Master: It's a symptom

19:12:37 Meyar: My main concern is some of that inter-staff grumping leaking into public, which was bleeding into OOC this morning.

19:12:38 Shadow_Of_Man: I've got into it now, but it was very hard to find the motivation to want to play when characters had to be played differently than on the Exodus

19:12:38 Apple Master: They lose motivation because of internal strife/conflict

19:12:52 Apple Master: Or because of whatever other reason

19:12:57 Apple Master: And then they retire, because the motivation is gone

19:13:00 Apple Master: Which is yes, a huge issue

19:13:04 Meyar: I've come close to saying 'fuck it' and retiring after all the fighting.

19:13:06 Apple Master: But you can't solve motivation as a thing

19:13:09 Apple Master: You can solve the root causes

19:13:13 Apple Master: If people communicate them well

19:13:20 Apple Master: And I think we have some communication issues that make that not a thing

19:13:37 Asanadas: Our playerbase isn't "everyone". We're aiming for a niche who enjoy serious-yet-accessible RP in their 2D spacemans. That's been our bread and butter

for the past years.

19:14:03 Apple Master: I mean a better phrase owuld be

19:14:06 Apple Master: "everyone that looks for that"

19:14:07 Apple Master: then

19:14:15 Apple Master: Even so the "audience" is a large thing

19:14:18 Shadow_Of_Man: What would you suggest Apples for Communication? Like, we all seem to know that us all arguing is a problem, but tbh it is mainly because we all

care about baystation and thus feel very strongly about what happens to it (I.E Dividing opinions on proposals)

19:14:29 Shadow_Of_Man: And I don't see an easy way to solve that

19:14:48 Apple Master: I mean

19:14:55 Apple Master: I think "we all seem to know that us arguing is a problem"

19:14:57 Asanadas: Yeah. Woe be brought to whomever scares away our regular playerbase, because someone once burned is twice shy about ever coming back and putting any

effort into the game.

19:15:00 Apple Master: is only acknowledged in places of this

19:15:06 Apple Master: Where people think that plays well

19:15:15 Apple Master: It looks good in am eeting to go "yes we have this problem i agree"

19:15:21 Apple Master: And then tomorrow go back to doing the same as ever

19:15:24 Paradoxon: *groans*

19:15:35 Paradoxon: Sorry I'm late. I kinda fell asleep on my bed by accident.

19:15:40 Daaneesh: It's cool

19:15:40 Apple Master: S'ok

19:15:43 Apple Master: beds are for sleeping

19:15:44 Apple Master: mostly

19:15:46 Daaneesh: ~

19:15:55 Daaneesh: *coughs*

19:16:21 Daaneesh: But yeah like arguing is definatly a big thing, but the past week hasn't seemed too bad

19:16:41 Shadow_Of_Man: But, I know we have a problem because of all the threads we have about it. The problem is, as soon as I get on and see someone doing something I

disagree with of course I am gonna argue. (I mean, kinda hyperbole but basically)

19:17:02 Shadow_Of_Man: I can know we have a problem but that doesn't stop disagreeing with someone to the extent where arguing becomes a thing.

19:17:15 Apple Master: I mean

19:17:19 Daaneesh: Disagreeing is fine

19:17:21 Apple Master: You have to draw the distinction between arguing

19:17:22 Meyar: Nono

19:17:23 Apple Master: and discussing

19:17:24 Daaneesh: Arguing is not

19:17:24 Meyar: There's disagreeing

19:17:26 Apple Master: Yeah

19:17:35 Meyar: And then people becoming dicks and name calling and being snarky cunts to eachother

19:17:41 Apple Master: To take a good example, the ERP propsal discussion in staff

19:17:44 ZeroBits: Honestly, I think that part of the problem is that some of the staff simply don't show eachother the respect that they, as peers, are warranted. Sure,

you may have differing opinions on some matters, or think things should be done different ways, but it shouldn't be an excuse to devolve into petty

19:17:44 ZeroBits: arguments. I think that disagreements can be good, but they should be discussed in a constructive way, and there should be some respect between the

parties.

19:17:45 Apple Master: We cleary disagree

19:17:47 Meyar: The ERP discussion was tame

19:17:50 Meyar: Oddly so.

19:17:51 Apple Master: But we discussed it perfectly

19:17:52 Apple Master: Yeah

19:18:01 Apple Master: It was surprising, which is the bad part

19:18:03 Meyar: We've had more vitriolic conversations about the killing rule

19:18:07 Apple Master: But that's how we should conduct all things

19:18:28 Apple Master: However a lot of the time it'll devolve or one guy will go "okay you're being a dick"

19:18:32 Apple Master: and then someone else will go

19:18:34 Apple Master: "alright fucko"

19:18:42 Apple Master: and then wham we have 3 hour arguments or whatever

19:18:46 ZeroBits: Yeah, people need to not do that.

19:18:51 Daaneesh: So basically we just need to stop being rude to eachother and start talking to one another with respectful manners

19:19:02 Apple Master: Like...duh? basically

19:19:02 ZeroBits: Mostly what Daan said.

19:19:05 Meyar: Gfl with that. (hahasee what I did there)

19:19:08 Apple Master: It should be obvious tho

19:19:09 Paradoxon: *raises his hand*

19:19:14 Daaneesh: XD

19:19:17 Apple Master: _gently pushes hand down_

19:19:18 Daaneesh: Go Para

19:19:19 Apple Master: shhh para

19:19:20 Apple Master: shhhhh

19:19:27 Daaneesh: *slaps apple*

19:19:28 Daaneesh: XD

19:19:33 Apple Master: have respect >:(

19:19:33 Paradoxon: Can I just mention that we kinda had this discussion half a dozen times already, and people kept being dicks to each other

19:19:40 Apple Master: okay

19:19:45 Apple Master: Well my proposal to the next headmin would be to

19:19:49 Apple Master: give people strikes for being dicks then

19:19:50 Apple Master: :v

19:19:52 Shadow_Of_Man: Yah, maybe we need to actually have some sort of rule or policy or something solid

19:19:53 Paradoxon: I mean, clearly just "reminding" people is not working, at all.

19:19:56 Daaneesh: I agree

19:19:58 Apple Master: We do have policies SOM

19:20:04 Apple Master: we literally have "dont be a dick to each other"

19:20:14 Shadow_Of_Man: Then why aren't they being acted upon

19:20:16 Apple Master: That hasn't been enforced because anytime its attempted people get all fuckinng ree

19:20:17 Daaneesh: We have a strike system

19:20:22 Daaneesh: Yeah pretty much

19:20:31 ZeroBits: I mean, I personally try to be respectful to the other staff and players, even when I strongly oppose something. It's just the right thing to do. I

can't say that I always succeed, but I do put some effort into it.

19:20:45 Daaneesh: Agreed

19:20:49 Meyar: Doesn't help that you're viewed as one of te people engaging in the problem behavior, apples :v

19:20:55 Meyar: Any strike coming from you is automatically nonsense

19:20:57 Meyar: in that regard anyway

19:21:21 Daaneesh: Sometimes I get upset, but I try and walk away before I say or do anything rash, calm down for a few minutes, then come back and try and talk more

rationally

19:22:08 Shadow_Of_Man: Yah, Daaneesh is a good example of what to do. Only time I have ever seen her be angry is in a VC where walking away isn't as easy 😛

19:22:29 Daaneesh: XD

19:22:39 ThatOneGuy: IMO though, it does just seem heavy-handed and forceful to give strikes to people for being a dick. A lot of the time the strike system seems pretty

iffy, seeing as how different punishments are weighted the exact same, even if one is worse than the other. I don't think being a dick during a heated

19:22:39 ThatOneGuy: argument entails the same punishment as abusing your powers in game and vice versa. If we really want to fix this issue yes we do need to push for a

more respectful environment, but it needs to start at the top-down, and it needs to be something that is actively worked on throughout terms, not just

19:22:39 ThatOneGuy: taped up with "strikes for dickishness."

19:22:47 Apple Master: you're a senior

19:22:52 Apple Master: And you bring up it being iffy now?

19:22:59 Apple Master: You've had four months to like mention that and change it around

19:23:00 Apple Master: Lol

19:23:03 ThatOneGuy: I've brought this up since I was Headmin 😐

19:23:07 Asanadas: Ah so it's already been decided 🤡

19:23:14 Asanadas: 4 months ago

19:23:19 Apple Master: what?

19:23:25 Daaneesh: Huh?

19:23:42 Daaneesh: That uh, was to Asan ftr

19:23:45 Paradoxon: *raises his hand again*

19:23:52 Daaneesh: You can just talk Para o=

19:23:58 Paradoxon: See, that's right here is how we manage to keep screwing up on the respect level

19:24:21 Apple Master: I mean perhaps it would help if Asanadas didnt weigh in with words that make no fucking sense and a clown emoji?

19:24:22 Apple Master: Like

19:24:25 Apple Master: there's a modicum of respect

19:24:27 Apple Master: That should be given

19:24:30 Apple Master: and I at least give it

19:24:34 Paradoxon: ToG saying something, Apple shutting him down by saying he should've said something sooner because "lol you've been senior for four monthes". If ToG

wants to speak now, then, better late than never ?

19:24:37 Paradoxon: Also Asanadas, yeah.

19:24:38 SiegDerMaus: I disagree with the strikes system as well. Players are always punished at admin discretion, admins breaking rules should be punished at headstaff

discretion.

19:24:46 Paradoxon: We need to stop that crap.

19:25:02 Apple Master: especially, @Asanadas after you agreed with me in a DM to cut down on this sorta stuff

19:25:10 Asanadas: My point is that Apples apparently has already decided to begin punishing people with strikes if they "are rude".

19:25:15 Apple Master: I mean no?

19:25:19 Asanadas: Clearly!

19:25:19 Apple Master: How was that remotely implied

19:25:22 Daaneesh: When?

19:25:23 Meyar: That whole dynamic just pretty well encapsulated what happens.

19:25:24 Asanadas: You think I can't read?

19:25:31 Meyar: Someone says a thing

19:25:36 Apple Master: what the fuck are you on about

19:25:36 Meyar: Someone else is a condesending dick about it

19:25:40 Meyar: Third person responds

19:25:43 Meyar: Second person snarks more

19:25:44 xales: Wow okay seriously.

19:25:46 Meyar: It feeds itself.

19:25:47 xales: I just popped in.

19:25:50 Meyar: Chill.

19:25:53 Daaneesh: Guys chill calm down

19:25:53 Asanadas: You **just said yourself** that's its your recommendation for the next head admin

19:25:56 SiegDerMaus: Can we not devolve this discussion into the very thing that it's about?

19:25:59 xales: @Asanadas Seriously, calm down.

19:26:03 ZeroBits: Fourth person weighs in commenting on how they're being ridiculous.

19:26:10 xales: New topic.

19:26:18 xales: It's irrelevant to the current administration.

19:26:22 Daaneesh: Okay guys

19:26:23 xales: Not discussing it further.

19:26:26 Asanadas: Would you be the type of person to recommend doing something and then not do it yourself? Sorry @xales but I don't think I'm insane for taking offense

to someone calling my train of thought completely fucking retarded

19:26:40 Daaneesh: He didn't though

19:26:46 SiegDerMaus: Seriously, we should get back on track

19:26:51 Daaneesh: And yeah

19:26:53 xales: You're MASSIVELY jumping the gun and playing the victim here, @Asanadas, literally putting words in his mouth.

19:26:57 Asanadas: Yeah you're right Daan, he just said `makes no fucking sense`

19:27:00 xales: But regardless, this topic is over.

19:27:10 Daaneesh: Moving on

19:27:13 Paradoxon: *sighs*

19:27:20 ThatOneGuy: *bring up major points* *lose them in arguments* 😐

19:27:21 Paradoxon: Please ping me when we're done with that topic.

19:27:26 Meyar: _pats ToG._

19:27:27 Asanadas: Right, go ahead and close the topic the first moment an actual point of discussion comes up. That's the problem these days.

19:27:35 ThatOneGuy: ❤ meyar

19:27:42 Meyar: No, the problem is people flying off the handle

19:27:45 Meyar: That whole thing

19:27:48 Meyar: Did not have to happen.

19:27:48 SiegDerMaus: Asanadas, we're not closing the topic, we're just moving it back to where it's supposed to be 😐

19:27:50 Meyar: None of it

19:27:52 Meyar: Had to happen.

19:27:57 Daaneesh: No we're moving on because people are starting to be disrespectful of eachother.

19:28:19 Daaneesh: So back to the topic about people not being dicks to eachother?

19:28:32 Apple Master: I'm done with this meeting

19:28:35 Apple Master: Someone else can chair it

19:28:37 ThatOneGuy: Yes as we were, SDM brought up a good point

19:28:54 Asanadas: 👋🏻

19:28:58 ThatOneGuy: If we let Headstaff punish the Staff team on discretion just like how staff punish players

19:29:09 ThatOneGuy: It'd make more sense, to me anyways.

19:29:14 Meyar: We'd have no bloody staff left right now 😛

19:29:25 Meyar: And that's indicative of a problem.

19:29:29 ThatOneGuy: Lol well most staff are pretty good about not getting in trouble

19:29:30 Daaneesh: Sure but we need to have some form of guidelines

19:29:34 xales: ^

19:29:36 SiegDerMaus: So we purge the problem staff and consolidate power? o:

19:29:36 Asanadas: I don't know about you but I don't vote on senior staff with the prospect of them punishing me **on their discretion**

19:29:43 ThatOneGuy: Of course, just like how we do with regular players

19:29:51 xales: It'll just further this "waaah unfair treatment" if there becomes even less structure.

19:29:56 ThatOneGuy: There's guidelines they have to follow, and breaking them results in discretionary punishment

19:29:57 Meyar: I mean purely on the 'don't be a butt to eachother' a lot of us would be deadminned.

19:30:08 Daaneesh: Yeah

19:30:08 SiegDerMaus: If we can't trust headstaff to enforce discipline sanely and without bias, we shouldn't vote for them

19:30:15 Meyar: ^

19:30:16 Daaneesh: ^

19:30:19 ThatOneGuy: WE have staff guidelines, breaking them reslts in the same. Anything from warnings, to different breaks of staff, and even removal if it warrants it

19:30:27 ThatOneGuy: Also what sDM said yea

19:30:50 Asanadas: That's the thing @SiegDerMaus , headstaff have never had to babysit individuals in the staff team ever. And if you're going to heap that responsibility

onto the role, you're going to fundamentally change it.

19:30:58 SiegDerMaus: Players have complained about the "slap on the wrist" nature of strikes as well. They feel that bad staff will never be actually punished

19:31:06 ThatOneGuy: I'm not saying babysit either

19:31:10 ThatOneGuy: but if a staff gets a complaint

19:31:11 ThatOneGuy: and its valid

19:31:15 ZeroBits: No @Apple Master , you don't get to just walk out of the meeting. You have your obligations as headmin to fulfill, and you can't just walk out when

things get dicey. This is your show, and until a new headmin is elected, you're the one running it, take responsibility for that.

19:31:25 ThatOneGuy: or if staff are bing dicks to eachother

19:31:27 Meyar: I mean technically the headmin and by extension the staff-manager-min have the power, and are expected to, handle staff disputes and hand out staff

punishments.

19:31:28 Daaneesh: He's not technically headmin anymore tbf...

19:31:33 Apple Master: actually Zerobits

19:31:36 Apple Master: Host is meant to run the meetings

19:31:38 Apple Master: So...no

19:31:39 Apple Master: I can

19:31:42 xales: lmao

19:31:44 Apple Master: And i'm choosing to

19:31:49 Asanadas: Don't worry @ZeroBits, that ship sailed a long time ago. His absence is just like the past 4 months.

19:31:51 xales: When was the last time that happened?

19:31:53 Meyar: Our host has been absent for as long as I've been here, you can stop pretending like that's not been the case for 5+ years 😛

19:31:57 Meyar: I've never seen him run a meeting

19:31:59 SiegDerMaus: Asanadas, that was unwarranted

19:32:02 Daaneesh: ^

19:32:05 Daaneesh: It really was

19:32:06 Asanadas: It was absolutely warranted.

19:32:08 SiegDerMaus: No

19:32:15 ThatOneGuy: HE ran meetings early 2016 Meyar

19:32:19 ThatOneGuy: Anyways

19:32:19 Asanadas: This is a legitimate complaint I have had from the playerbase, and I am raising it myself.

19:32:20 Daaneesh: Asan you need to chill

19:32:21 Meyar: Did he?

19:32:23 SiegDerMaus: Stop constantly trying to steer this talk back into snarkland

19:32:23 Meyar: I stand corrected.

19:32:25 ThatOneGuy: Guys back to the damn topic

19:32:40 ThatOneGuy: Jesus if he doesn't want to be here oh well, lets push on with the meeting

19:32:43 Asanadas: Am I unable to say that Apples has been an absent Head Admin?

19:32:52 ThatOneGuy: Go ahead, but we have a meeting here

19:33:03 xales: Anyway seriously Asan if you keep derailing the meeting with comments like that, since everyone else is in agreement, I will ban you from Discord until

after the meeting. It's way too far. Your tone is the problem, not what you are saying.

19:33:04 SiegDerMaus: It's the way you said it, dude. We already had this devolve into personal attacks before

19:33:05 Shadow_Of_Man: You are unable to make snarky comments that are forcing him to step back because he knows that arguments are a bad.

19:33:36 ZeroBits: I like Apples, and I have a lot of respect for him, but he really does need to take more responsibility for the server, and he really does need to

learn to show some respect for some of the other staff.

19:33:48 ThatOneGuy: The fact that everyone is still on this is grueling. Please, back to the topic, stop making comments about this side tangent otherwise we'll never

finish

19:33:54 Asanadas: Well I feel like it is cohesive to the meeting. You want to know a big problem with the team as it is right now? There's no legitimacy in the

leadership. Apples doesn't even like the game as it is now; he's expressed as much. He doesn't play on the server. He's turned the Head Admin role into a

19:33:54 Asanadas: co-host role and completely veered it away from what it is supposed to be.

19:34:19 Meyar: Vote him out then

19:34:20 Meyar: ???

19:34:21 Asanadas: The admin team is under the yoke of someone who doesn't even have proper optics on the game.

19:34:22 xales: If you want to bring that up as a topic, do so. That is not the current topic.

19:34:26 xales: Also, what Meyar said.

19:34:28 Meyar: Instead of making this entire meeting about your beef with apples

19:34:28 Daaneesh: OKAY GUYS SERIOUSLY

19:34:31 ThatOneGuy: So, sure, if Senior Staff gain discretionary powers, power shift kinda occurs

19:34:33 Daaneesh: STAY ON TOPIC

19:34:36 Asanadas: Yeah I was going to @Meyar , but then he completely demonized me with the damn cabal secret discord room.

19:34:38 xales: Also, Asan, whatever your criticism is, it's clear you have a personal vendetta, so...

19:34:49 Apple Master: Maybe thats because you made a fucking cabal discord?

19:34:58 Asanadas: Completely spun it out of proportion. You know that was a vote of no-confidence assessment?

19:34:58 ThatOneGuy: Oh

19:34:59 ThatOneGuy: My

19:35:00 Apple Master: Oh no i was demonized for being a fucking asshole

19:35:00 ThatOneGuy: God

19:35:02 ThatOneGuy: STop

19:35:04 Daaneesh: Apple

19:35:05 Apple Master: What a shock

19:35:05 Meyar: _nosebridgepinch._

19:35:05 Daaneesh: Please

19:35:06 Daaneesh: Stop

19:35:07 SiegDerMaus: Just stop, people

19:35:17 Meyar: Time to bring back the talking stick.

19:35:21 SiegDerMaus: Stop it now so we can move on.

19:36:01 Asanadas: You think I'm going to go ahead with a vote of no-confidence and potentially fail? Your completely bureaucratic deconstruction of our admin team has

politicized everything so that I **needed** to make fundamental calculations or else risk being stigmatized. And oh look at me now, I'm stigmatized.

19:36:15 Apple Master: Are you done yet babe

19:36:31 Daaneesh: Okay we are moving on to the next topic, which was, staff appreciation, @Apple Master?

19:36:39 Asanadas: You can believe your own fiction. I just won't sit here and let you feed it to others without challenge.

19:36:59 ZeroBits: Asan, you're certainly being part of the problem here. It doesn't matter if you have something against Apples, he's part of this staff team, and he

should be afforded some respect, and your comments don't help resolve anything. If you have concerns, then state them clearly, make them known, and try

19:36:59 ZeroBits: to have them handled in a manner appropriate for a member of the staff team.

19:37:03 Meyar: 😑

19:37:13 xales: @Asanadas I don't meet this in a disrespectful way, but to be completely honest, you're coming off as a little crazed.

19:37:32 Paradoxon: Asan, right now you're stigmatizing yourself by throwing shit at people right when we're talking about *why this is something we need to stop doing*

19:37:44 xales: Seriously take a deep breath and a step back. Regardless of your thoughts, why do you care so much that you're going to this level?

19:37:47 SiegDerMaus: Asanadas has been temporarily removed so that the meeting can continue in a sane and productive manner. Next topic.

19:38:00 Daaneesh: @Apple Master You wanna do staff appreciation?

19:38:05 Daaneesh: AS the next topic

19:38:08 ZeroBits: To be quite frank, both asan and apples were acting like children, and this is coming from someone who is legally a child.

19:38:14 Meyar: Next topic, and I'm being entirely serious, can we deadmin Asanadas after the ten pounds of fucking crazy he's been pulling lately.

19:38:20 xales: Thank you whoever did that. (@SiegDerMaus?)

19:38:22 Meyar: Jesus.

19:38:52 xales: @ZeroBits I don't really think Apples could have handled it much better aside from just not responding, considering what Asan was doing.

19:38:55 Daaneesh: Well there are no new entires for staff appreciation, but I have some words

19:39:06 Paradoxon: Can we maybe not hold a tribunal against Asan in the current context and maaaaybe approach the topic when things have cooled down ?

19:39:11 ZeroBits: ^

19:39:13 Shadow_Of_Man: Anyone want a cuppa while we wait for Daaneesh to type

19:39:15 Meyar: Fair.

19:39:38 ThatOneGuy: Guess we can talk about this issue later then

19:39:56 xales: I do think it is something I would like brought up. This recent behavior is way too far.

19:40:01 xales: But again, not now.

19:40:04 Shadow_Of_Man: Maybe add it on at the end of the meeting if it really needs to be talked about here?

19:40:18 ThatOneGuy: (Im talking about the original issue not Asan)

19:40:43 ThatOneGuy: (because we went absolutely nowhere on it)

19:40:58 Daaneesh: I would like to thank everyone who has worked so hard to making this server and community great. I know being a staff member is hard work and sometimes

stressful, but if we have eachother's backs and work as a team it makes it so much easier.

19:40:58 Daaneesh: Thank you to everyone that has been working hard on maintaining the lore and making sure nothing silly or over the top happens

19:40:58 Daaneesh: And the devs for making sure we don't literally crash and burn, everyone is doing a great job, keep it up 3

19:41:03 xales: I mean, sure TOG, but if it's bad enough he has to be forcibly removed from a meeting despite warnings... >_>

19:41:09 ZeroBits: 3

19:41:12 xales: But also we can restart the topic and maybe get further

19:41:22 Paradoxon: I just think it's pretty unfair to determine Asan's status in the staff right after one of these... Things, especially right after he got kicked out

of the room. Definitely not the right time to take a definitive decision on that. Anyway, just my two cents, go ahead Daan.

19:41:31 ThatOneGuy: Xales I mean I'm not wanting to talk about him, but the original issue at hand

19:41:45 ZeroBits: Guys, let's just put this off until later. It's not the current agenda topic.

19:41:47 Shadow_Of_Man: THANK YOU DAANEESH

19:41:48 SiegDerMaus: Yeah, Paradox is right. It'd be a little close to a lynch mob for my tastes

19:41:52 ThatOneGuy: Also thanks DAan

19:41:53 Daaneesh: ^_^

19:42:03 Meyar: Not lynchy enough.

19:42:11 Meyar: #lynchalladmins

19:42:12 Daaneesh: Is there anything else anyone would like to say for staff appreciation?

19:42:15 xales: @Daaneesh Also thank you too, having to manage the staff is a hard and pretty crappy job at times, though fun too, and you do it well.

19:42:18 Daaneesh: 3

19:42:22 SiegDerMaus: I would like to say something, yes

19:42:24 Shadow_Of_Man: But seriously Daan, you've been a big help with talking to about motivation/stress

19:42:25 Daaneesh: Thanks :-)

19:42:36 Daaneesh: I'm glad I can help ^_^

19:42:37 Shadow_Of_Man: I know I've had conversations with you about it, and look at me now

19:42:37 ThatOneGuy: (I'm also gonna say something)

19:42:41 Daaneesh: :-D

19:42:42 Shadow_Of_Man: Playing the game and shit

19:42:46 xales: Also @Paradoxon @SiegDerMaus I'm not suggesting doing it now, but some time in the future perhaps, especially if it happens yet again.

19:42:49 Meyar: Thanks to everyone for keeping civil during the whole ERP discussion. I know it's touchy, and it went better than I expected.

19:43:14 Meyar: Even the players have been better than I expected about it, even if they disagreed in greater numbers than expected

19:43:26 Meyar: But I think it's safe to say, looking at that vote, it won't be coming to the staff cabal for a final vote.

19:43:32 SiegDerMaus: Even though we argue a loooooot, we're actually quite the team. We've pulled off a lot of awesome stuff, and have kept this ship sailing despite all

the troubles. It takes a lot to manage a community like we do, but we do it. And even though we fight a lot, we're a family and I love you guys and

19:43:32 SiegDerMaus: what we've been doing together

19:43:56 ZeroBits: To be honest, despite some things I may have said, I really do think that the staff here have been under-appreciated. You've all done your jobs well,

and you've managed to keep the server together through a lot.

19:43:56 ZeroBits>

19:43:56 ZeroBits: While I may not agree with many of you on some issues, I do hold significant respect for every one of you, and I really do value you all as members of

this crazy little family.

19:44:00 xales: Also a touchy subject, but thanks @Meyar and @spooky for putting together the first actionable proposal to fix some of the common gripes, and congrats on

the general acceptance it got (suggesting change is always hard, especially here).

19:44:22 Shadow_Of_Man: Too much niceness, Bot confirmed it

19:44:25 xales: Yep

19:44:25 Daaneesh: XD

19:44:27 xales: b&

19:44:32 Meyar: Shut up botwinder

19:44:34 Shadow_Of_Man: 🤢

19:44:35 Daaneesh: Anyways, is there anything else someone wants to add?

19:44:35 Meyar: We're hugging it out.

19:44:37 xales: @Daaneesh I guess you have to leave now, too much nice.

19:44:39 xales: :(

19:44:42 Daaneesh: :-(

19:44:44 Paradoxon: Well, uh

19:44:46 Daaneesh: But I like it here ;_;

19:44:48 Mordeth221: oh

19:44:49 Mordeth221: uh

19:44:49 Paradoxon: *raises hand, again*

19:44:56 Daaneesh: Go ahead 3

19:45:06 Mordeth221: thanks to @Crushtoe @ZeroBits and @mkalash for being my bread and butter staff buddies on the server

19:45:17 Mordeth221: where the heck is everyone else when im on 😠

19:45:20 xales: w o w

19:45:22 Daaneesh: LOL

19:45:24 xales: The bot let you thank them all?

19:45:29 xales: But not me?!

19:45:35 xales: ~nom

19:45:38 ZeroBits: @Daaneesh I want to personally thank you for everything you've done, both for me, and for every other member of the staff team. You've been a wonderful

part of the staff team for the time I've been here, and your actions don't go unappreciated.

19:45:41 Mordeth221: pls I've seen you like twice in as many weeks

19:45:52 Daaneesh: Awe 3

19:45:56 Head: I want to thank everyone who was capable to be civil today even tho Asan exploded.

19:45:57 xales: @Mordeth221 No I mean like, I couldn't thank 3 people in a row >_>

19:45:59 Daaneesh: Thank you hun :-)

19:46:01 Head: Also for all your good work with the server.

19:46:10 SiegDerMaus: I think @Daaneesh deserves a huuuuge thank you for keeping this staff team together despite it all. I can't imagine what it's been like in her

shoes, and she's an amazing woman

19:46:15 Meyar: @Head Also sorry for thinking you've not run meetings when you apparently did at the start of '16. :c

19:46:16 Paradoxon: Kinda just wanted to thank all the people who do their best to keep the peace in the staff. Daaneesh, SdM, Xales, in particular. Been having lots of

shit going down in my life recently, and with the current atmosphere in the team it's been *really* difficult to actually give a crap about my job as

19:46:16 Paradoxon: moderator here, and you guys doing your best to save the boat is possibly one of the few reasons I haven't quitted yet, so... Thanks, I guess ? 😮

19:46:19 Meyar: That was when I was work-busy

19:46:27 xales: I want to thank @Head for popping in at the most opportune time as always 👌

19:46:33 Daaneesh: Awe you guys are the best 3

19:46:37 Head: :)

19:46:42 Head: Thanks!

19:46:44 ZeroBits: 3

19:47:04 ZeroBits: You all do great work. And I don't say this enough, but I really am honored to be part of this team.

19:47:17 xales: Unrelated thing but

19:47:22 xales: Who is doing logs today?

19:47:37 xales: I host them now, Apples was doing them in the past since Atlantis retired.

19:47:44 xales: So I can do it if that's easy.

19:47:49 Mordeth221: I think you just nominated yourself xales

19:47:50 Mordeth221: 😉

19:47:51 Apple Master: I do them through NT anyway

19:47:51 NanoTrasen_Inc: This much solely through.

19:47:57 Apple Master: _re-poofs_

19:47:58 xales: Ah okay

19:48:01 Daaneesh: Okay so next topic?

19:48:05 SiegDerMaus: And I'm honoured to have been selected as your loremistress, and hope I've been doing the community proud with it. Hope to run again for the

position, too, since I've been having a blast doing it

19:48:09 Daaneesh: 3

19:48:19 Meyar: I'm going to suggest we just

19:48:20 Daaneesh: So, next on our agenda, tutorial project

19:48:24 Meyar: Cut that entire catfight from the logs.

19:48:29 Daaneesh: So as some of you may know, there is a project for a tutorial area in the works. Right now it’s still at the planning stages, but once I have it

finalized and all that fun jazz, I will post my plans on the forums for it. If anyone has any suggestions as to what should be added or anything like

19:48:29 Daaneesh: that, I am welcome to ideas and my DM’s are always opened.

19:48:34 Meyar: Players saw enough staff fight bleeding into public in OOC this morning

19:48:39 Meyar: Don't need to see that in meeting logs.

19:48:53 SiegDerMaus: But what about transparency?

19:49:04 Meyar: Kids don't need to see mommy and daddy fight.

19:49:04 SiegDerMaus: It'll look worse to find out we've been fighting and hiding it, if that ever comes out

19:49:12 Meyar: They can know we fight

19:49:16 Meyar: They don't need to see the fighting.

19:49:23 SiegDerMaus: That's fair enough

19:49:34 Shadow_Of_Man: I don't think transparency is always a good idea, that's why we have general staff 😛 [CUT THIS AHH]

19:50:09 Meyar: Sorry, back to Daan's topic

19:50:10 xales: So since we're back to cutting stuff, which I think is fine

19:50:15 xales: Is anyone NOT okay with cutting stuff?

19:50:21 xales: Speak now or I'll be cut ;)

19:50:24 Daaneesh: I'm okay with +it

19:50:28 xales: It'll*

19:50:30 xales: >_>

19:50:33 Daaneesh: XD

19:50:39 Paradoxon: I think it's more about a) is it useful for the players to know b) do we really want to publish kinda shameful shit-throwing in our official

19:50:44 Paradoxon: official logs*

19:50:51 Daaneesh: We don't

19:50:52 Shadow_Of_Man: Probably best for Asan to not see what was said after he "left". Cutting is A-OK

19:50:53 ThatOneGuy: I'm just gonna say again that I don't think a tutorial area is the best use of time or space when it comes to new players, and that we could use that

time and energy to work on parts of the rest of the server/community/lore to further develop it and make that area easier for players to get into and

19:50:53 ThatOneGuy: understand without 10000s of out of game guides.

19:51:11 ZeroBits: I think that it should be cut, but the players should know that it was cut for being an off-topic argument.

19:51:13 ThatOneGuy: Also stop going about Asan and that whole thing, we have a topic to discuss

19:51:15 Paradoxon: Also yeah, tutorial area seems... Odd ?

19:51:22 ThatOneGuy: Just cut it

19:51:24 ThatOneGuy: Start here

19:51:33 Meyar: End of rine__________

19:51:34 Mordeth221: im okay with the tutorial area if it can be opted out of

19:51:34 xales: @ThatOneGuy Completely honestly, the tutorial area is a small time commitment compared to most other stuff.

19:51:45 Meyar: Also yeah, that kind of mapping project is baby tier easy

19:51:48 xales: I think the idea is like "safe mechanics testing" too.

19:51:49 ZeroBits: I'd be willing to contribute to a tutorial area.

19:51:59 ThatOneGuy: Xales I wasn't expecting it to be big time, but, it doesn't seem like the best decision for what we could do

19:52:00 xales: Since a lot of players want to do that or ghosts want to play around.

19:52:04 ThatOneGuy: And leaves other issues just dangling

19:52:07 xales: Or experiment in ways or ehatever.

19:52:09 Paradoxon: I mean, learning has always been a part of the game. We have assistants jobs, a moderator team to assist the players, etc.

19:52:11 ThatOneGuy: so sure they get this area to learn mechanically

19:52:12 Daaneesh: Okay so the reason for the tutorial area is because when a lot of people first come on they don't know how to do anything. Pick something up, put

things on, etc...

19:52:16 Shadow_Of_Man: That sounds like a verrry good idea. Although you'll need a good list of what needs to be there

19:52:27 Daaneesh: It would be good and useful for new players

19:52:28 Mordeth221: I sort of don't want the tutorial area to show up on attack logs though

19:52:31 Paradoxon: I feel like containing our newbies into a starting area might cut some of what makes Bay a pretty cool place

19:52:33 Shadow_Of_Man: Like, as detailed as slimes, or just basic wall making

19:52:34 Shadow_Of_Man: Kinda thing

19:52:35 Daaneesh: And yeah I'm working on it

19:52:42 xales: Yeah I'll make the tutorial area magic, I have an idea for it code-wise.

19:52:44 ThatOneGuy: Yeah seriously the tutorial area just seems like forcing newbies into a different area besides the Bay they heard about

19:52:47 Daaneesh: If anyone wants to help I am good for that

19:52:49 ThatOneGuy: no offense

19:52:50 Shadow_Of_Man: Is it forcing?

19:52:56 Mordeth221: is it forced or opt in

19:52:56 xales: It'd be completely optional.

19:52:59 Shadow_Of_Man: Yah

19:53:01 Daaneesh: Opt in

19:53:02 Shadow_Of_Man: Opt in would be ebst

19:53:21 Shadow_Of_Man: Like, A thing saying "Hey, you are new, click this to spawn in and learn in our tutorial area"

19:53:32 xales: I mean the other option of course, might be easier

19:53:38 xales: Is just a tutorial server with a tutorial map

19:53:39 Daaneesh: Yeah

19:53:44 xales: Instead of on the main server.

19:53:44 Paradoxon: Newbies would feel inclined to start with the tutorial tho, I mean, that's what a normal person does when they discover something. Then they miss out

on learning with our kind players and our dedicated staff team 😦

19:54:02 Shadow_Of_Man: Para, clearly you haven't seen youtubers skip through any tutorials

19:54:06 Shadow_Of_Man: Because learning is "funner"

19:54:08 Shadow_Of_Man: 😄

19:54:09 Daaneesh: Yeah

19:54:12 Paradoxon: Youtubers are a different breed

19:54:20 xales: species*

19:54:20 Paradoxon: They look to make an interesting video

19:54:31 Paradoxon: Tutorials don't make interesting videos.

19:54:57 Paradoxon: I mean, people playing games' tutorials. Youtubers doing tutorials for a game is interesting, but I'm drifiting away from the subject here.

19:55:06 Daaneesh: People don't have to do it, but honestly first time I played I was so confused and overwhelmed I ended up leaveing 5 minutes later thinking this was a

not so great game. I ended up going on a friends private server, he showed me around and how to do things, and that's how I actually started to enjoy

19:55:06 Daaneesh: it

19:55:14 ThatOneGuy: I know this argument may seem silly but...then why have the area? Sure a select few would use it, but the basic mechanics of the game aren't usually

the biggest issues for new players, all that's detailed in new player guides that could be easily worked into more mechanical areas like microlore

19:55:58 Daaneesh: Let me do a bit more work on it, I'll send when I have to those interested in seeing the development, and we can go from there

19:56:13 ThatOneGuy: IMO I'm looking at it the same way as the ERP Lewdsay. Sure, a small group would use it..but it doesn't seem like the best thing for the server as a

whole

19:56:18 ThatOneGuy: Ight

19:56:53 Head: MAKE

19:56:54 ZeroBits: Honestly, I just think it'd be fun to work on. I have no real opinions on it otherwise.

19:56:55 Head: TUTORIAL AREA

19:57:03 Daaneesh: XD

19:57:07 Head: I can't understand how it hasent been a thing for all these years

19:57:18 Daaneesh: Tog suggested it years ago

19:57:20 Head: Its 100% worth

19:57:22 Snapshot: Bear in mind as well as that's more z level bloat

19:57:24 ThatOneGuy: Head I suggested it years ago and everyone took a shit on it and deleted the post >.>

19:57:37 Snapshot: Which means longer compile times and generally more strain on server.

19:57:53 Snapshot: Unless the whole thing is written with really nice and efficient callbacks or something.

19:58:02 Daaneesh: That's something that could be sorted out

19:58:14 ThatOneGuy: And also gotta make sure that the newbs are able to get back to the startup easily and join the actual game the same round

19:58:15 Head: we have a telecom system

19:58:20 Head: with a fucking scripting language

19:58:23 Head: :>

19:58:25 ThatOneGuy: Rather than be stuck on the tutorial area for the whole thing

19:58:26 Daaneesh: Yeah

19:58:30 Head: I think we can handle a tutroail

19:58:34 Snapshot: Many of us want to drastically simplify that head

19:58:41 Head: I am well aware

19:59:05 Snapshot: TBf if I made it I'd want to do some sort of hl1 like hologram course.

19:59:39 TheWelp: Tutorial Area with a tutorial bot that berates you for failing

19:59:46 Snapshot: But instancing that seems like it'll get really obnoxious

20:00:03 Daaneesh: @TheWelp I have that planned :-D

20:00:17 TheWelp: Just have an area like actor guild

20:00:31 Daaneesh: If anyone wants to see my progress so far, feel free to pm me

20:00:33 Snapshot: So Xales be sure to talk to me about what you have in mind and let's see if we can come up with something together.

20:00:44 Snapshot: I'd like larger projects like that to have more dev to dev communication tbh

20:01:18 Snapshot: Instead of single developers going off on solo tangents and doing silly things like committing themselves to too many projects which we all have out

fair share of.

20:01:45 Daaneesh: Okay, if there is nothing else to add on this?

20:01:50 Daaneesh: Next topic

20:01:56 Daaneesh: Wiki project:

20:02:02 Daaneesh: Okay so this has been in the makings for a while now, there are some pages that have been updated, but there’s still a large chunk that is outdated. If

anyone wants to help out, I encourage you to message me about it, we could use as much help as we can get.

20:02:21 Shadow_Of_Man: Mechanics or Lore wiki?

20:02:23 ThatOneGuy: We honestly need to just nuke the mediawiki original and start fresh

20:02:30 Daaneesh: The entire wiki in general

20:02:35 ThatOneGuy: Pull what we can

20:02:41 Snapshot: Imo we should try and find a way to migrate everything into the game in some way.

20:02:45 ThatOneGuy: branch between the LoreGit and Mechanics as much as we can

20:02:48 Shadow_Of_Man: Books books books

20:02:49 Shadow_Of_Man: Pls

20:02:51 ThatOneGuy: And yes, migrate everything in game

20:02:53 Daaneesh: Yeah

20:03:00 Shadow_Of_Man: WE have the law book link to sol gov wiki page

20:03:01 ZeroBits: TBH I just think we should put more effort into keeping the wiki up to date.

20:03:10 Shadow_Of_Man: Why can't all books do thiis

20:03:16 ThatOneGuy: Microlore descriptions on objects, books, lore tidbits when you examine, mechanical help when you examine maybe too

20:03:29 Snapshot: I don't like forcing people to leave the game just to read a thing of lore.

20:03:29 Daaneesh: I agree with Zero, but we need to focus on getting it uptodate to start with

20:04:06 ZeroBits: The wiki may not be ideal, but it's going to be way too much effort to put it all ingame, or just nuke it and create an entirely new one.

20:04:26 ThatOneGuy: IMO if we can have all the lore ingame and available, plus more lore on descriptions for objects, and give mechanical hot-tips for objects so that

players know what they can do with them, it'd be A__

20:04:51 xales: A__

20:04:54 Daaneesh: Like I think having a book on 'how to do surgery on Tajaran's' would be cool

20:04:59 ThatOneGuy: Like a table: "This is table. You can climb onto bhy blah blah blah"

20:05:08 Shadow_Of_Man: TBH, I think the lore wiki format was a big mistake. Nice idea, but the actual format for it is reaally hard to use and trawl through. It was much

easier to use the links on the original wiki back in the days.

20:05:18 xales: How does one explain OOC things in a book though?

20:05:22 xales: Like alt-clicking.

20:05:25 SkyMarshal: Very carefully.

20:05:33 Daaneesh: xD

20:05:41 Shadow_Of_Man: Make all books about this game

20:05:43 ThatOneGuy: Nah the Mechanical Wiki stuff can stay out of game in some fashion

20:05:45 Meyar: Simple,

20:05:46 Shadow_Of_Man: That is a simulation of earth love

20:05:48 Shadow_Of_Man: *life

20:05:48 ThatOneGuy: But we need to get lore in books

20:05:56 Shadow_Of_Man: But is actually SS13

20:05:59 Meyar: Make it clear that the books about mechanics are what you learn from it, not what's actually on the page

20:06:06 SkyMarshal: TBH, it's be nice to have IC and OOC pages in books or something.

20:06:06 ThatOneGuy: While I love the LoreWiki, and I think it really helped centralized the Lore from the trash heap it was, we need to move on and improve

20:06:13 ThatOneGuy: AGreed Sky

20:06:25 xales: I actually quite like that @Meyar

20:06:27 xales: :p

20:06:35 Meyar: http://i.imgur.com/lRF67IP.png

20:06:38 Meyar: Side note,

20:06:38 Meyar: what

20:06:43 SkyMarshal: Yeah, that's a pretty good way of doing the separation, Meyar

20:06:52 Apple Master: We use letsencrypt

20:06:54 Apple Master: 3 months it expires

20:07:02 Apple Master: I pinged head already

20:07:03 Head: Did the auto recertiyfy

20:07:05 Head: fail again!

20:07:12 Apple Master: guess so

20:07:31 Meyar: Head confirmed for trying to steal my password

20:07:50 Daaneesh: LOL

20:08:16 xales: s/trying to/having already

20:08:16 NanoTrasen_Inc: DiscordBridge-Meyar: Head confirmed for having already steal my password

20:08:20 ZeroBits: The lore wiki is bad, and we need a new, way better way to store the lore in a readable manner.

20:08:57 Apple Master: Lore should be in game in items like leaflets/posters/etc

20:09:04 Apple Master: And to an extent in item descriptions

20:09:14 Meyar: Yteah personally

20:09:16 ZeroBits: I think there should definitely be extended lore outside the game for reading.

20:09:20 Apple Master: Which Meyar and I discussed yea

20:09:25 Meyar: As someone who has never read more than what I immediately need

20:09:27 Apple Master: Oh there should be an out of game stuff for like

20:09:30 Meyar: I've read 0 extra lore

20:09:33 Snapshot: Okay can I make a suggestion

20:09:34 Apple Master: When you're bored and want to read background stuff sure

20:09:37 Apple Master: But it shouldn't be the bulk

20:09:42 Daaneesh: Sure, @Snapshot

20:09:48 Apple Master: also I am kind of back

20:09:52 Apple Master: having cooled off

20:10:23 Meyar: @Snapshot This is more your bag, but, we could do with organizing a list of coding priorities from the staff, an official 'we're looking for contributors

to work on this stuff' list with a priority assigned.

20:10:27 Meyar: Nothing like 'do this or else'

20:10:37 Meyar: just 'We would kindly request this if you're looking for a project'

20:10:43 Meyar: Ditto the wiki I guess

20:10:56 Apple Master: For mechanics wiki think we need to nuke it and start afresh

20:10:59 Apple Master: with open contribution

20:11:04 Apple Master: not "ask for an account"

20:11:09 Snapshot: Axe the mechanics wiki and the lore wiki. Repurpose the book system to serve mechanics instructions and move lore into the codex. Make all the info

from both also accessible from outside of the game.

20:11:18 Meyar: Apple if we nuke it we run the risk of it taking yeeeeeeeeeeears to get back to scratch

20:11:26 Apple Master: I mean we leave the old one in existence

20:11:28 SkyMarshal: Out of curiousity, is this bridged to IRC? 0.o

20:11:32 Meyar: It is

20:11:33 Apple Master: Yeah

20:11:33 Snapshot: Yes

20:11:34 Meyar: somewhere

20:11:36 Daaneesh: Yes

20:11:36 SkyMarshal: _nods._

20:11:43 Meyar: As an idea

20:11:44 Apple Master: #bs12meeting

20:11:53 Meyar: What if the mechanic stuff

20:11:58 Meyar: Was accessible via PDA

20:12:08 Meyar: A mass-effect esque codex

20:12:13 Meyar: Or are we trying to smother the PDA now?

20:12:14 Snapshot: No opinions about my suggestion?

20:12:26 Meyar: I was riffing off your suggestion, it's not wrong.

20:12:36 Meyar: I'd say lore go in books

20:12:38 Shadow_Of_Man: That could be cool, if done on console/laptop/tablets as well as PDA

20:12:41 Meyar: mechanics go in a codex accessible by PDA

20:13:01 Apple Master: what happens to the wiki though

20:13:01 Meyar: But PDa code is satan so I know not what I ask

20:13:02 Apple Master: that's

20:13:03 ZeroBits: TBH, if we're going to do lore in books, I want us to have proper multi-page books with chapters and stuff.

20:13:05 Apple Master: 5 years

20:13:07 Apple Master: of people's work

20:13:21 Daaneesh: It's wayyyyyyyy outta date

20:13:24 Shadow_Of_Man: I'm now imagining an encyclopedia of items where it is like a picture of a crowbar and "These are used to do x, by doing y"

20:13:28 Meyar: Didn't you just suggest nuking it apple 😮

20:13:29 Shadow_Of_Man: That'd be cool Meyar

20:13:35 Snapshot: Wiki are ditched. Any relevant info is migrated to the new codex and mechanics archive.

20:13:41 Daaneesh: We have to update most, (f not all) of the wiki as it it

20:14:04 Apple Master: I suggested nuking it and having a new wiki

20:14:05 Apple Master: Not no wiki

20:14:17 Meyar: fair

20:14:18 Daaneesh: Like, we cant not have a wiki

20:14:22 ZeroBits: Yeah, nuking the wiki wouldn't be the best idea. We really should keep the wiki, and update it. Then we could also have a tutorial for mechanics, and

lore in ingame books as well as some sort of lore repository.

20:14:24 Meyar: Okay so what if,

20:14:36 Meyar: The wiki was the source of the information in the codex and lore books

20:14:42 Meyar: So it could still be editted by the community

20:14:47 Meyar: I just don't know how well the code would enjoy that

20:14:47 Apple Master: Updating the wiki doesnt work though, we need to start a fresh wiki, with no pages

20:14:51 Snapshot: The codex and mechanics books are still visible outside of the game.

20:14:52 Apple Master: and then re-do pages that are necessary

20:15:02 Apple Master: i.e our wiki atm has a "Soviet_law" page

20:15:02 Snapshot: So why do we need a wiki?

20:15:04 Daaneesh: YEah that's fine

20:15:05 Apple Master: we dont need to update that

20:15:07 Meyar: I'm more interested in how easy they are to edit out of game

20:15:09 Apple Master: we need to remove it

20:15:16 Meyar: Because if it's going to require a PR every time and code diving

20:15:21 Meyar: people are gonna be like 'nah cba'

20:15:27 Snapshot: Again Meyar let me flesh out a full plan

20:15:32 Meyar: Sure, sorreh ❤

20:15:41 ZeroBits: That's well and good Apples, but do we have enough people willing to put in the time for that to work?

20:15:50 Apple Master: You're part of the team, you tell me

20:15:55 Apple Master: THere's...421 wiki pages

20:15:56 Snapshot: But I have an idea to make thing easy and also fix our books problem in one stone.

20:15:56 Daaneesh: I use wiki for so many things- rules, surgery, chemistry, food, drinks, etc...

20:16:03 Apple Master: Most of them are un-used

20:16:07 Apple Master: So if we were making a new wiki

20:16:09 Daaneesh: People use the wiki, we would have riots if we didn't have one at all

20:16:11 Apple Master: it'd be around 300 i think

20:16:14 Meyar: @xales already has my wishlist for books

20:16:20 Apple Master: So 10 people

20:16:23 Apple Master: 30 pages each

20:16:24 Meyar: Or rather, administrating books.

20:16:26 Apple Master: Not a huge amount of work

20:16:27 ZeroBits: I'm certainly willing to put in the time, and I know that a couple others would, but that may not be enough to get it done in a reasonable time.

20:16:32 Daaneesh: Could do that

20:16:40 Apple Master: Define reasonable time?

20:16:50 Daaneesh: If you're not apart of the wiki team, and would like to be, please pm me

20:16:57 ZeroBits: I feel like it would end up being 3-4 people doing 80-100 pages each.

20:17:10 Snapshot: I motion we move the wiki discussion to the forum

20:17:23 Daaneesh: Agreed

20:17:23 Snapshot: There's a lot of ideas that people have that need to be fleshed oug

20:17:26 ZeroBits: Agreed.

20:17:28 Daaneesh: I can make a thread on it

20:17:31 Snapshot: We're not going to make a decision in this meeting.

20:17:33 Daaneesh: After the meeting

20:17:34 Apple Master: I don't necessarily agree with it

20:17:52 Snapshot: Especially in regards to ironing out all the details.

20:17:57 Apple Master: It's not some big discussion that needs a forum thread

20:18:23 Snapshot: I'm making a completely different proposal

20:18:27 Apple Master: ANd if the thread is to collate ideas, then how do we then decide what idea to go with

20:18:30 Snapshot: We have two suggestions on what to do

20:18:36 Apple Master: I'm aware

20:19:37 ZeroBits: I personally think that we should make a new wiki, but keep the old one until it's done.

20:19:59 Snapshot: I think it's a good idea to spend some time to come up with ideas. This is the first time we're discussing this as staff in a major way.

20:20:17 Apple Master: I think spending time with ideas is analogous to nothing happening.

20:21:00 Snapshot: I think it's a better idea to not jump the gun to the first idea.

20:21:33 Daaneesh: Okay so moving it to the forums after the meeting

20:21:33 Snapshot: We did that with the lore wiki and made something even more complex to navigate

20:21:34 ZeroBits: I think this warrants further discussion, in a forum thread.

20:21:37 Apple Master: Okay, someone make athread to collate ideas then

20:21:40 Daaneesh: Because we won't resolve it here

20:21:44 ZeroBits: ^

20:21:58 Daaneesh: Moving on? If anyone has anything they want to talk about...?

20:22:06 ThatOneGuy: Just make the thread jeeze, its a big enough discussion

20:22:11 Daaneesh: I will

20:22:12 Daaneesh: Gosh

20:22:15 Daaneesh: I said I will

20:22:15 Daaneesh: XD

20:22:19 Snapshot: I mean I'm not trying to intentionally slow things down but I think discussion is a good idea

20:22:23 ThatOneGuy: Also I think we should return to the original topic of State of the Server

20:22:27 ThatOneGuy: cause we never finished

20:22:28 ThatOneGuy: >.>

20:22:41 Meyar: State of the snark more like _<

20:22:57 Snapshot: Fuck off Meyar no snark allowed

20:23:00 Meyar: ok. :c

20:23:03 Meyar: 😢

20:23:11 ZeroBits: IIRC, it was the topic directly after state of the server that we never finished.

20:23:32 ThatOneGuy: bit of both really

20:23:33 Daaneesh: I agree @ThatOneGuy

20:24:11 Daaneesh: Soo

20:24:14 ZeroBits: My bad, it was in fact state of the game.

20:24:15 Daaneesh: This is going well

20:24:27 Daaneesh: @ThatOneGuy Did you want to say something?

20:25:17 Snapshot: Server is shit and it's all my fault obvs

20:25:21 Daaneesh: Haha

20:25:23 Daaneesh: Totes

20:25:24 Daaneesh: XD

20:25:24 ThatOneGuy: Alright so, we do need to discuss the toxicity that develops amongst staffmembers. The respectfulness of staff though needs to start Top-Down, not

bottom up. We can't expect staff to treat eachother fairly when me or other senior staff or the host or the headmin or the headdev will shit on eachother

20:25:24 ThatOneGuy: or on staff and not respect the staff the same way

20:25:41 ThatOneGuy: AS well, we need to be more opent o change as a staff team

20:25:47 Snapshot: Tbh though devs have been a bit slow as of late but most of us are entering or just leaving finals week

20:25:52 Daaneesh: I agree

20:25:52 Snapshot: Expect more dev fun over the summer.

20:25:59 ThatOneGuy: We're like hardcore conservatives who want to return to the 1800s when it comes to a lot of change discussion and it is grueling

20:26:12 Daaneesh: It is

20:26:25 Apple Master: I'm just going to apologise then for my tone to you earlier TOG

20:26:35 ThatOneGuy: IT's alright bud, I didn't take it harshly ❤

20:26:39 Apple Master: I agree this stuff is an issue

20:26:44 Apple Master: And I understand that i'm part of it

20:26:52 Apple Master: So i don't really know what other input to have

20:26:53 Apple Master: but i'm sorry

20:26:56 Daaneesh: We all are tbh, we can't just point fingers here

20:27:09 Meyar: *points a finger. Right into Daan's forehead*

20:27:11 ZeroBits: I honestly agree 100%. It's just not going to work from the bottom up.

20:27:12 Daaneesh: D-:

20:27:16 ThatOneGuy: I'm not trying to point fingers, I'm just saying where we need to start work

20:27:17 ThatOneGuy: Also

20:27:25 ThatOneGuy: The STrike System needs some remodeling

20:27:30 Daaneesh: It does

20:27:32 ThatOneGuy: Remember the whole issue with ban appeals?

20:27:36 Apple Master: also someoe probably needs to give asan his roles back

20:27:40 Apple Master: btw

20:27:43 ThatOneGuy: And like 5 staffmembers getting strikes because they didnt follow it to the letter

20:28:00 Apple Master: That was 2 staff members

20:28:08 ThatOneGuy: hyperbole ;_;

20:28:12 ZeroBits: 2, 5, same numer, just flipped around.

20:28:16 Meyar: I'll hyper your bowl.

20:28:20 ThatOneGuy: 😉

20:28:20 SkyMarshal: Kinky

20:28:23 ThatOneGuy: But yeah

20:28:26 Apple Master: I'd prefer if we didn't have hyperbole in a staff meeting :p

20:28:33 ThatOneGuy: Ight sorry

20:28:49 Apple Master: Just because those numbers do paint a different picture

20:28:55 ThatOneGuy: But issue still stands, some rework needs to occur so that staff still receive punishment but different punishments can be weighed differently

20:29:00 ThatOneGuy: Yeah my b

20:29:00 Apple Master: It does.

20:29:29 Snapshot: I'm sad none of our developers got thanked earlier other than xales

20:29:32 Snapshot: :(

20:29:36 Apple Master: thanks @Developers

20:29:39 Meyar: ^

20:29:40 Apple Master: aw that didnt work

20:29:44 Asanadas: You're welcome

20:29:48 Snapshot: Good job apples now they'll actually show up

20:29:50 Apple Master: fuck

20:29:55 Mordeth221: what's a dev

20:29:57 Daaneesh: @Snapshot I thanked all the devs :-(

20:30:02 SkyMarshal: Kek

20:30:02 Apple Master: ...

20:30:05 Daaneesh: xD

20:30:12 SkyMarshal: Silly 'bot.

20:30:12 Mordeth221: I thought the bot updates the server and game admins confirm it with sentry

20:30:13 Chronograph: Hello, I am here.

20:30:41 Daaneesh: @Chronograph hour and a half late! O=

20:30:49 Apple Master: @ThatOneGuy How would you change the strike system?

20:30:56 Apple Master: Lets make that an actual topic now

20:31:02 ZeroBits: I personally think that we need to have someone in the headmin position who really does care about the server and its staff, shows respect to the other

members of the staff, and is the best this community has to offer.

20:31:02 ZeroBits>

20:31:02 ZeroBits: I think Daan fits all these roles perfectly, and I do think that a good first step to fixing this mess would be having someone like her in charge to

lead by example.

20:31:05 ThatOneGuy: Aight

20:31:14 Apple Master: thanks zero

20:31:16 Apple Master: i appreciate that

20:31:18 Apple Master: :|

20:31:19 ThatOneGuy: Well for me, 3 Strikes need to go, we're not a baseball game

20:31:26 Mordeth221: *pats apples, avoiding the stem*

20:31:39 Apple Master: I've only been here 8 years I definitely do't care

20:31:40 Apple Master: lmao

20:31:45 ThatOneGuy: It should be setup similar to how bans are handled. First breaking of policy is always gonna be a warning

20:31:47 ThatOneGuy: No matter what

20:31:51 Daaneesh: Thank you Zero

20:31:52 ThatOneGuy: I think having the warning there is good

20:32:07 ThatOneGuy: After that it's up to the Senior Staff to decide based on their own discretion

20:32:09 Daaneesh: And I appreciate you Apple, you do a lot for this server and community

20:32:10 Meyar: Apples that's not what zero meant and you know it :p

20:32:14 xales: I mean the problem is that there's too many cases there TOG

20:32:25 ThatOneGuy: WE have shittons of things when it comes to bans

20:32:29 xales: Already, is it one warning per "policy broken," or just one warning overall, or...

20:32:36 ZeroBits: Apples, I do think you care, and you have done well as headmin, but you have had problems leading by example and showing respect. You certainly have

been an excellent headmin during my time here.

20:32:37 Apple Master: I think "We need someone like X" heavily implies Y is not X

20:32:48 Apple Master: but its not the topic so i wont labour it

20:33:10 Asanadas: You might be reading too much into it.

20:33:12 ZeroBits: But I do think that we really do need someone who can be a good example to the other staff.

20:33:15 Daaneesh: I think that sounds good @ThatOneGuy

20:33:22 ZeroBits: But yeah, I meant no offence.

20:33:23 ThatOneGuy: Xales again, discretion. The warning is for breaking Staff Policy. If you're being a dick, you get treated the same as players

20:33:31 Apple Master: @ThatOneGuy in my experience warnings don't do anyhting though

20:33:53 Meyar: They kinda don't

20:33:59 Apple Master: You see that with players too

20:34:09 Apple Master: We have a lot of players that just get warning after warning

20:34:11 Apple Master: And are a problem

20:34:15 Apple Master: That's even worse if its a staff member

20:34:19 Apple Master: that gets warning after warning

20:34:23 Daaneesh: Agreed

20:34:24 ThatOneGuy: Oh I dont want warning after warning

20:34:26 Apple Master: And still has the same problems they had

20:34:29 ThatOneGuy: Yeah

20:34:30 Apple Master: No you dont want it, sure

20:34:33 Daaneesh: How many warnings then?

20:34:36 Apple Master: But that's what I hink would happen?

20:34:37 Daaneesh: It's still a strike system

20:34:38 ThatOneGuy: 1

20:34:40 Apple Master: And like, isnt a strike a warning?

20:34:41 ThatOneGuy: literally 1

20:34:47 Apple Master: Like strikes represent warnings

20:34:50 Apple Master: 1st strike is a warning

20:34:54 Apple Master: 2nd stirke is 2 day removal

20:35:00 ThatOneGuy: after that though there is no 2nd or 3rd

20:35:02 Apple Master: @ZeroBits My bad then, sorry.

20:35:04 Daaneesh: Actually it's a week removal

20:35:12 Apple Master: week removal, yeah, mb.

20:35:19 ThatOneGuy: if you have the warning already, and then you say, break policy again

20:35:28 ThatOneGuy: its up to HeadStaff to decide on punishment, not an arbitrary thing

20:35:33 Apple Master: Okay

20:35:37 Daaneesh: So the strike system with hasher terms?

20:35:39 Apple Master: How would that factor into complaints?

20:35:41 Mordeth221: I don't like that

20:35:48 ZeroBits: I can understand that the way I worded it could imply that you've been underperforming, but you haven't been. You've done well in the position, and,

were you up for re-election, it would be a hard choice between you and Daan.

20:36:05 Apple Master: Pls, between me and daan would not be a hard choice

20:36:15 Apple Master: But now we're probably accidently leaking candidates so

20:36:15 Daaneesh: Lewd

20:36:16 Apple Master: shhhh

20:36:27 ThatOneGuy: Sorta I mean sure if senior staff just keep letting problem staff say with continuous talk after talk about how they messedup it becomes an issue

20:36:38 Apple Master: UH anyway how would a new system factor into complaints tog?

20:36:39 Apple Master: like

20:36:42 Apple Master: someone gets a valid complaint

20:36:45 Apple Master: how do we action that

20:37:22 Snapshot: I thought third strike in 6 months was removal from staff

20:37:25 Apple Master: It is

20:37:36 Meyar: It's hard to acrue strikes to start with.

20:37:37 Daaneesh: Yes

20:37:46 Meyar: I can't think of anyone who has actually hit strike 3

20:37:50 Snapshot: Yeah, and generally people who get two strikes shape up pretty well

20:38:09 ThatOneGuy: Same way we would a ban tbh. If you break Admin Policy you get some kind of break from staffing for a bit. Player policy needs to apply to staff too

because sometimes the complaint should really be a ban request, like when Mkal got in trouble way back and got jobbans from sec and whatnot

20:38:16 Snapshot: Anyway can't talk anymore driving home and meeting will probably be done by the time I get home.

20:38:23 Apple Master: dont die

20:38:27 ThatOneGuy: or do

20:38:28 Apple Master: or do im not your boss

20:38:28 Snapshot: Putting this here so I can find this when I get back home @Snapshot

20:39:00 Apple Master: So you'd just view a valid staff complaint as

20:39:04 Apple Master: "this should be actioned"

20:39:18 Apple Master: and then leave it to discretion but probably avoid the "i have told them off" thing

20:40:28 Mordeth221: Question

20:40:45 Mordeth221: Have we had "How to make a staff complaint as staff" thread since before 2017 meyar

20:41:02 ThatOneGuy: Maybe

20:41:08 ThatOneGuy: Apple yes

20:41:12 ThatOneGuy: Sorry didnt see you said anything

20:41:22 xales: Related to TOG's thing

20:41:30 ThatOneGuy: We need less "told them off" because our staff needs to be held to a higher standard

20:41:32 xales: But staff should need to do things for every role they hold or stop holding it

20:41:41 ThatOneGuy: Sure it'd be a bit more stressful, but it'd make for a better staff team IMO

20:41:44 Mordeth221: One of the issues is we might not have a place to post as staff against staff without like yknow

20:41:48 Mordeth221: just DMing it to someone

20:41:50 xales: If a game admin isn't on the server but does moderate the community only, they should lose one of those titles

20:41:53 xales: or go on leave

20:42:01 xales: for example

20:42:03 ThatOneGuy: agreeed

20:42:11 xales: And it's impossible to codify

20:42:12 Daaneesh: Yes

20:42:14 xales: So that's again up to head staff

20:42:19 Apple Master: If we're on complaints

20:42:22 xales: But guidelines are nkce

20:42:22 Apple Master: I'd like to bring up something

20:42:29 Apple Master: And I can, because i'm still headmin

20:42:35 Apple Master: SO THERE

20:42:38 xales: o shit

20:42:41 xales: POWER STRUGGLE

20:42:43 Mordeth221: but Xales what does that make a Senior Admin lore maintainer

20:42:48 Daaneesh: XD

20:42:50 Apple Master: They must updoot the lore

20:42:50 Mordeth221: its one title

20:43:01 Apple Master: Uhm

20:43:02 Mordeth221: aren't they expected to still be on the server like a senior game amdin

20:43:02 Mordeth221: :v

20:43:08 Apple Master: But no i'd like to talk about staff vs staff complaints

20:43:11 Apple Master: Which are like super are

20:43:15 Mordeth221: (not point at you SDM just using your title as an example)

20:43:17 xales: Mord seniors have different expectations but really should be on the server too, yes

20:43:18 Apple Master: probably the only one we've had was JC to Asanadas

20:43:22 Apple Master: But

20:43:28 ThatOneGuy: Mord yes and update lore

20:43:29 xales: But they need to also do their senior stuff

20:43:33 Finalsong1: If your title includes "senior admin" I'd think it means you still have to be on server

20:43:37 Apple Master: I think they should behandled differently to normal staff complaint

20:43:46 xales: Yeah, I agree @Finalsong1

20:43:51 ThatOneGuy: (we had some against HAswell btw Apples. And you at one point >_>)

20:43:52 Daaneesh: I agree, @Apple Master

20:43:55 xales: "Admin" means "administrate the server"

20:44:01 Apple Master: I mean, from STAFF against STAFF

20:44:04 Daaneesh: (and head tbf)

20:44:04 ThatOneGuy: ye

20:44:08 Apple Master: Okay

20:44:13 Apple Master: well i mean, i was just using an example I remembered

20:44:15 Apple Master: Anyways

20:44:18 ThatOneGuy: ye sorry

20:44:21 xales: Can I make a complaint

20:44:21 Apple Master: If staff have an issue with another staff member

20:44:22 Mordeth221: We could make a complaints subform in the hidden general staff

20:44:26 Apple Master: To the extent that it results in a complaint

20:44:27 Apple Master: That is

20:44:29 xales: That I have not enough complaints against me :o

20:44:29 Apple Master: drastically more seirous

20:44:34 Daaneesh: Agreed

20:44:36 Apple Master: than a player making a complaint

20:44:37 Finalsong1: I feel like it should be situational

20:44:55 Daaneesh: @xales Ive had one complaint sinceI started in 2012 :-3

20:44:59 Apple Master: I also think we're on two topics rn

20:45:02 Finalsong1: For example, it should be handled normally if it's one staff member doing something to another as a player

20:45:03 Apple Master: which is hurting my brain

20:45:10 xales: I agree with Final again here, if you are staff and have a staff complaint, talk to the staff senior about where to post it first?

20:45:13 Finalsong1: But if it's something else then it should be handled differently

20:45:15 Apple Master: Sure

20:45:23 Apple Master: Its not a policy thing I'm suggesting

20:45:26 Apple Master: Just

20:45:33 Apple Master: They should be treated heavily

20:45:36 Daaneesh: I think that staff complaints should be handled in the staff forums imo

20:45:47 Apple Master: All staff?

20:45:54 Daaneesh: Yeah

20:46:12 Apple Master: But then how do players make them or put their case forwards :o

20:46:13 Mordeth221: that was my line 😢

20:46:26 Daaneesh: Staff vs staff I mean

20:46:35 Apple Master: ok

20:46:38 Apple Master: Then I agree there, yes

20:46:45 Mordeth221: staff vs staff where we're using staff logs and stuff ye

20:46:51 Apple Master: Well , just staff vs tsaff

20:46:51 Apple Master: because

20:47:04 Apple Master: if staff member X thinks staff member Y did something not-staffy

20:47:12 Daaneesh: (needto afk a few kiddo is asking forfood)

20:47:18 Apple Master: Then its a volunteer going "i dont want to work with this voluntneer"

20:47:25 Apple Master: and no one here should have to work with somemone they dont want to

20:47:26 Apple Master: or

20:47:27 Apple Master: no

20:47:30 ThatOneGuy: Yeee

20:47:30 Apple Master: my brain has gone off track

20:47:35 Apple Master: I think that makes sense?

20:47:43 Mordeth221: ⏭

20:47:51 Mordeth221: It makes sense

20:48:08 Mordeth221: the next question would be, do we hold the complaints to the same standard as player staff complaints

20:48:08 Apple Master: I mean its just more of a consideration thing like

20:48:11 Apple Master: Yes

20:48:13 Apple Master: Or even higher

20:48:15 Apple Master: Way higher, imo

20:48:29 Apple Master: That's my point momstly

20:48:32 Mordeth221: ye

20:48:39 Apple Master: If a player makes a staff complaint against say, me

20:48:42 Apple Master: Then that's serious, sure

20:48:50 Apple Master: Should be consideredand such

20:48:58 Mordeth221: like, since we all have acess to logs, theres not much excuse for my dog-ate-my-logs can you get logs for me instead

20:49:04 Apple Master: but could also be salt, and less considerd by them, etc

20:49:12 Apple Master: If say...Mordeth makes a staff complaint against me

20:49:23 Apple Master: Then that's a staff member going "I dont thinkthis person should be staff"

20:49:33 Apple Master: And thats way more serious than a player made complaint

20:49:38 ThatOneGuy: Agrreed

20:49:44 Mordeth221: _closes apple-complaintv6.txt_

20:49:46 Mordeth221: Imeanwhat

20:49:47 Apple Master: v6

20:49:48 Chronograph: But at the same time that staff member could have said it with salt and not much consideration.

20:50:04 Apple Master: This is true

20:50:06 Mordeth221: V6 for all american muscle complaints

20:50:08 Apple Master: but hten it'd be invaidated

20:50:08 Meyar: Remove chrono 2017

20:50:25 Mordeth221: And thats why we'd hold it to a "Post logs" standard

20:50:32 Mordeth221: where the logs should be the main star of the thread

20:50:32 Apple Master: If logs are relevant

20:50:33 Apple Master: yes

20:50:39 Mordeth221: logs should always be relevant

20:50:46 Apple Master: it depends if the offence was loggable

20:50:50 Apple Master: what if I call you IRL

20:50:52 Apple Master: and call you a cunt

20:50:56 Mordeth221: I'd be pretty amazed

20:51:00 Mordeth221: and not angry at all

20:51:06 Apple Master: okay but voice etc is my point

20:51:07 Meyar: _calls apple on on the telephone. Calls them a rotten fruit._

20:51:07 Apple Master: you dork

20:51:11 Apple Master: WOW meyar

20:51:12 Apple Master: rood

20:51:16 Mordeth221: do you guys call each other or something

20:51:18 Mordeth221: am I missing out

20:51:20 Meyar: no

20:51:46 Mordeth221: So yes if logs are applicable but we're on the internet so logs should be like

20:51:48 Mordeth221: 99% always applicable

20:52:08 Mordeth221: if I DM apples on facebook calling him a snarkshark then he'd have logs of it

20:52:24 Apple Master: yeah

20:52:31 Apple Master: anyways

20:52:35 Apple Master: I dont know what the action is but

20:52:36 Apple Master: Just

20:52:38 Mordeth221: 🦈

20:52:45 Apple Master: staff vs staff complaints are a serious thing and we should have that recorded somewhere

20:52:46 Apple Master: BUT

20:52:49 Apple Master: they basically never happen

20:53:05 Mordeth221: The only real con is forum bloat

20:53:07 Apple Master: So its no biggie

20:53:18 Apple Master: well if we have a forum thing for it i guess yea

20:53:37 Mordeth221: oh wait uh

20:53:45 Mordeth221: weren't we looking into magic permissions on xenoforo

20:53:53 Mordeth221: that makes a person only able to see their own post

20:53:58 Meyar: yes

20:53:59 Mordeth221: in the ban subforum

20:54:12 Apple Master: Yeah

20:54:15 Apple Master: That's do-able btw

20:54:27 Mordeth221: so that'd make it automatically a staff-eyes-only thing

20:54:33 Mordeth221: without a new forum area

20:54:36 Apple Master: ....

20:54:37 Mordeth221: 😮

20:54:38 Apple Master: This is true

20:54:40 Apple Master: huh

20:54:49 Mordeth221: your avatar is on point right now

20:54:51 Apple Master: If that propsal goes through tho

20:55:02 Apple Master: i'd check but LOL SSL errors

20:55:42 Apple Master: anyway thats just a consideration i think should exist

20:56:12 Mordeth221: also I'm going to butcher this with trying to say what I mean

20:56:16 Apple Master: oh no

20:56:21 Mordeth221: but I don't think we should let staff like

20:56:43 Mordeth221: complain on another staffs behalf, questionmark

20:56:50 Mordeth221: like, we get that a -lot- in player complaints

20:56:58 Apple Master: You kinda lost me a bit yeah

20:57:04 Apple Master: You mean bandwagon complaints?

20:57:07 Mordeth221: well, you and I for example

20:57:29 Mordeth221: we snark like old dogs but we know each other is stressed and we're actually 200% cool (well at least I am) with it

20:57:41 Mordeth221: and its only at each other

20:57:43 Apple Master: I legit hate you

20:57:45 Apple Master: actually

20:57:46 Mordeth221: I love you tho

20:57:49 Apple Master: >:(

20:57:52 Apple Master: unrequited love

20:57:58 Mordeth221: so I'd feel uncomfortable if say

20:58:05 Apple Master: oh right

20:58:07 Apple Master: Yeah i get you

20:58:10 Apple Master: if we were fucking about

20:58:11 Mordeth221: (x) moderator posted a complaint about you

20:58:12 Apple Master: and say, Chrono

20:58:12 Mordeth221: on my behalf

20:58:14 Apple Master: went

20:58:19 Apple Master: "Look, Apples was a dick to Mord"

20:58:20 Apple Master: Yeah

20:58:32 Apple Master: I dislike that as a player complaint thing

20:58:34 Shadow_Of_Man: But

20:58:36 Apple Master: for a staff complaint thing its a hell no

20:58:36 Mordeth221: I should be able to say "this is actually a comfortable relationship for me"

20:58:37 Chronograph: Usualy morning, I think.

20:58:37 Shadow_Of_Man: How can I chat shit about Apples

20:58:48 Apple Master: @Shadow_Of_Man You know i'll hit you IRL

20:58:49 Apple Master: >:(

20:58:53 Shadow_Of_Man: ~

20:58:56 Apple Master: no

20:59:02 Daaneesh: Do not tilde to your brother

20:59:03 Mordeth221: because two people might understand each other more than the casual observer knows

20:59:03 Daaneesh: That's gross

20:59:07 Apple Master: Yeah Mord

20:59:11 Apple Master: I think it should just be

20:59:17 Apple Master: only make a complaint if you were directly involved

20:59:21 Mordeth221: ye

20:59:25 Daaneesh: Yeah

20:59:28 Meyar: You must be an agrieved party, yes.

20:59:29 Apple Master: but like i say, i dont really think we need a big policy change or a speicfic policy for staff vs staff

20:59:32 Apple Master: this is just kinda

20:59:37 Apple Master: thoughts ive had for like 5 month

20:59:37 Mordeth221: common sense?

20:59:41 Apple Master: And that oto

20:59:51 Apple Master: _can totally type_

21:00:22 Apple Master: I just think that if a staff member makes a complaint about another staff member, its a very serious thing and should be taken seriously

21:00:26 Apple Master: Even if it's invalid, y'know

21:00:34 Apple Master: because either way a staff member feels they cant work with another

21:00:58 Mordeth221: also its not a major issue and I doubt it will ever need anything but: there might need to be like

21:01:00 Apple Master: I'd also appreciate it if you all made your complaints against me one at a time

21:01:04 Apple Master: Ok thanks

21:01:12 Mordeth221: a base minimum checklist or something

21:01:22 Apple Master: one at a time, once a year

21:01:23 Daaneesh: apples is worst and he should dedmin 5 ever 4shizzle

21:01:24 Apple Master: will keep me safe

21:01:33 Mordeth221: because we can get pretty different flavours of headmins who might see different from the last headmin

21:01:36 Apple Master: a checklist like

21:01:41 Apple Master: "Have you got your pitchfork"

21:01:46 Mordeth221: if the headmin is the ruling party on staff vs staff complaints that is

21:01:47 Apple Master: "Did you get some torches"

21:01:52 Apple Master: They are

21:02:10 Mordeth221: because you might ban someone for something snapshot wouldn't have

21:02:14 Apple Master: ah

21:02:20 Mordeth221: and raptor might've unbanned someone that snapshot banned

21:02:20 Apple Master: well i mean we have that within admin team even

21:02:21 Mordeth221: and so on

21:02:27 Apple Master: Liike that's sorta how we do

21:02:36 Mordeth221: Yeah but its an even smaller pool of reference

21:02:44 Mordeth221: because theirs like 20 staff to pick up player complaints

21:02:50 Mordeth221: but only 1 staff to pick up staff complaints

21:02:52 Apple Master: True

21:03:15 Apple Master: in that case I'd think some guidance in the headmin forum or something then

21:03:18 Mordeth221: and a lot of player complaints usually end up as 2 or 3 of us weighing in and asking each other

21:03:38 Apple Master: Yeah

21:03:38 Mordeth221: ye

21:03:54 Apple Master: I'd actually say senior forum rather than the head staff one but yes

21:04:06 Apple Master: That's probably more a thing for the next senior team to do

21:04:14 Mordeth221: also I have raised like three things and people are agreeing, wtf happened while I was away. are we mad max now

21:04:20 Apple Master: Yeah

21:04:27 Apple Master: also i dont really know how to end this topic so

21:04:33 Mordeth221: fade to black?

21:04:34 Mordeth221: 😉

21:04:40 Daaneesh: LOL

21:04:44 Apple Master: Nah I go all the way

21:04:51 Apple Master: i'll even touch your shoulder

21:04:53 Apple Master: and show ankle

21:05:20 Mordeth221: 🕳 🚅

21:05:31 Asanadas: There appears to be a change of mind in your opinion re: staff vs staff complaints since the complaint JC made against me.

21:05:31 Asanadas: 1. He didn't have any logs.

21:06:22 Asanadas: So I'm glad that there's going to be a raising of the bar on staff complaints.

21:06:25 Apple Master: I was using that complaint literally as an example I could remember.

21:06:32 Apple Master: Apologies if it seemed targetd or anything

21:06:48 Apple Master: But yeah, staff v staff complaints should be the highest standard

21:06:54 Apple Master: They should also never happen

21:07:04 Apple Master: and as you say, the most recent one was actually a player complaint in effect

21:07:05 Apple Master: So

21:07:07 Apple Master: It's ok

21:08:24 Apple Master: So I'd say that wraps up that topic.

21:08:31 Apple Master: @here Anything else anyone wants to talk about?

21:08:38 Mordeth221: uh

21:08:47 ThatOneGuy: Im good

21:08:52 Daaneesh: Nah

21:08:52 Mordeth221: I felt like I had something

21:08:56 Meyar: #iot

21:08:59 Meyar: riot*

21:09:04 Mordeth221: pls dont bring up erp

21:09:06 Shadow_Of_Man: I want

21:09:07 Shadow_Of_Man: to sleep

21:09:07 Shadow_Of_Man: Pls

21:09:16 Apple Master: I figured it;s a bit late for most people now, yeah

21:09:25 Mordeth221: its 6am somewhere

21:09:27 Mordeth221: 👏

21:09:34 Shadow_Of_Man: Its past midnight here

21:09:35 Shadow_Of_Man: 😛

21:10:02 Mordeth221: are staff meetings weekly or monthly

21:10:04 Mordeth221: its been a while

21:10:05 spooky: Only just, be fair

21:10:08 Apple Master: monthly

21:10:10 Mordeth221: since i was staff, that is

21:10:12 Apple Master: every 2nd saturday

21:10:24 Apple Master: assuming next headmin keeps that time, at least :v

21:10:32 Mordeth221: ok I won't hold up the meeting with my 8 hour shift brain

21:10:36 Mordeth221: I'll remember for next time

21:10:38 Mordeth221: probably

21:10:41 Apple Master: psh

21:11:50 Shadow_Of_Man: Ok, GN Guys

21:11:57 Apple Master: Okayyyy

21:11:59 Apple Master: Well

21:12:03 SkyMarshal: Sleep well!

21:12:08 Apple Master: Good meeting

21:12:10 SkyMarshal: _returns to lurking._

21:12:12 Apple Master: May we all live for at least

21:12:14 Apple Master: 7 more minutes

21:12:20 SkyMarshal: _ded._

21:12:22 Apple Master: Logs will be up tomorrow mo-

21:12:24 Apple Master: GOD DAMMIT SKY

21:12:27 Apple Master: >:(

21:12:52 Apple Master: okay, logs will be up tomorrow morning.