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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 399, with my guest, Emma. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads—from medically diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunctions, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist; it's not a doctor's office—it's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com, and, uh, mentalpod is also the, uh, Twitter and Instagram handle, if you, um, want to follow me/the show on that. Found some interesting surveys for, for this week's show, um, and particularly ones that have to do with body shame. And so, um ... those are, those are the ones that I picked, and they're not all exclusively around that. But I kind of like when I, uh, am able to find a theme for the surveys for, uh, a particular show. And, um ... some very moving ... some very moving surveys. Cuz I think we ALL struggle with hating something about our bodies. And I don't know if I've ever met somebody that is completely comfortable in their … literal skin. Um ... yeah. So it'll be interesting to hear, uh, people, people share about that. And I really like this, uh, interview/conversation I have with Emma—and that's a pseudonym we're, we're using for her. Very, very lovely woman, uh, who made the flight from England to, to Ireland to, um, record this show. And, it's always nice when an English person travels to Ireland to not colonize. It's just so refreshing (chuckles).

[00:01:56] Hey! I wanna mention our sponsor for this week is Betterhelp.com. They provide online counseling, and I use them and I love them. And the feedback I get from people who've tried it is great, and ... why not?! Especially if you live in the boonies. It's, it's so simple. I don't even live in the boonies. I live in Los Angeles, and I just love, once a week, hopping on video chat with, uh, with my therapist—not having to get in the car, not having to worry about traffic or parking. And, uh, for me, the most important part is being able to have that face-to-face connection with, uh, with the therapist. And, so, um ... yeah. It's definitely as ... every, every bit as, um, um—I get all the feels I get from in-person counseling from my online counselor, Donna. So, go to betterhelp.com/mental, fill out a questionnaire. And make sure you include the "/mental" part, cuz then they know you came from, uh, the podcast. Fill out a questionnaire and they'll make you with a Betterhelp.com counselor, and you can experience a free week of, uh, counseling; see if online counseling works for you. And you need to be over 18. Ok, two quick surveys and then we'll get to the, uh, to the interview.

[00:03:13] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Looney Tunes." And he writes: "I was in middle school, and a boy came out as being gay publicly—which was a big deal in the late 90s in my rural American town. I cornered him in the bathroom and called him mean, cruel names, and threatened him with violence. I then went home and ate a sandwich and went to my neighbor's house. I had to be prompt, because if I was late he would beat me. I then acted as a sexual slave for him and his friends. Looking back, I was yelling at myself, and those men transposing my feelings onto him as an easy target."—(Paul makes correction) Uh, oh!—" ... I was yelling at myself and those men, transposing my feelings onto him as an easy target. He had the courage to say 'This is who I am; you will accept me.' He was a hero, and I spat on him." Thank you for sharing that. And, you know … don't underestimate the importance of you becoming enlightened on the humanity of people that are different than you. That's the most important thing, you know. We're all gonna fuck up in our lifetimes; it's how we clean up our, our messes. And, the fact that you can now see the truth of what happened, um, I think, is really noble and beautiful. And, so, I hope you can forgive yourself. And if your, your paths ever cross with that kid, um, you'll get a chance to, uh, apologize to, to him. If that feel right to you, but, um, it sounds like you've learned from it, and, I think that's awesome. So, stop beating yourself up. And I am so sorry you had to experience what you did as a, as a kid. It's so common for kids to turn around and project, um, what is happening to them, uh, onto other kids or just point their hatred outwards. So, uh, I hope, I hope you're getting help for, for that trauma, cuz that is some serious shit that, uh, you just shared a tiny bit about it. And we also have another one of his, uh, surveys, and I'm gonna read after the show, um, because there's also some really fucked-up stuff that he experienced while he was being babysat. So, sending you a hug, buddy.

[00:05:42] And then this is a body shame survey filled out by, uh, a woman who calls herself "Celeste's Nature," and one of the comments (chuckles) she has about the podcast is: "Take all the surveys (lol)." I assume she wants ME to take all the surveys—which I've thought about doing, but ... I dunno if that would be, um, too self-indulgent or not. I always worry that I talk myself too much on the podcast, even though it's my fucking podcast. But, um ... ANYWAY! From the body shame survey: What do you like or dislike about your body and why? "I dislike that I am not tall, super thin. I have a large nose, no chin, and short legs ... should I go on? LOL! I am always using physical appearance to judge my worth as a human worthy of love since I was in grade school. Beauty mags did not help me, as well as being in a society where skinny is the way to go. I never had cool clothes or the clothes I wanted as a kid, and was made fun of a lot because of this—which has led to a kind of self-loathing. I've been practicing for over a year now not wearing make-up, short hair, only owning one mirror, and just buying thrift-store clothes ... and using those extra minutes of time I spent worrying about how I looked to sleeping in."

Intro Music

[00:08:09] Paul: I'm here with Emma, which is a pseudonym. You're visiting here in "Arr-land," as they pronounce it (Emma chuckles) from, from the UK—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: —and, uh, we spent a little bit of time together, uh, getting to know each other, bouncing around, uh, Dublin, and, uh ... I said let's do it ... let's, let’s record. I think there's a lot of stuff in your story—

Emma: Yeah

Paul:—in your past that would be intere ....

Emma: Interesting—

Paul: —to talk about. So, what are, what are some of the broad issues that—

Emma: Broad issues ... Um, so, what I have ... I sort of mentioned it yesterday when we went for coffee—great coffee house, by the way, good find—and, so, I think I was just a very anxious child. But, always put on this sort of persona of being very happy and smiley and, um—And then, when I turned 16, a lot of things sort of happened at once. My brother moved to Australia for a year. I moved to private school. So, so the, the terms for school in the UK are different to America. So, private school is where you pay, and public school is for free. So, I went from being—

Paul: —that's, that's the same in the States—

Emma: Oh, it's the same? Oh, ok, fab! So ... yeah. I'd been in free school my whole life, and then I went to private school. My brother had left. And, so, there was just suddenly a lot of focus on me. Um, I had to change—there's a term "greebo," I don't if you have that over there. So, like, real grungy ... like, dyed hair, um, listening to rock music and all of this kind of stuff. And I had to completely transform, uh, to a—I had to cut my hair short cuz it was bright red and, uh, and go back to my natural color, wear suits to school—

Paul: Hmm...

Emma: —And, my brother wasn't there as sort of back-up. And then I just had this horrible boyfriend that was just abusive in all matters of the term—

Paul: Um hmm—

Emma: And, um ... it was really, really tough. And I was doing my A levels, which are difficult anyway. And, and that basically—I think, genetically, my family are pre-disposed to have mental health issues. And I just think, you know, when you're 16, you're dealing with, uh, losing your virginity, you're under academic stress ... all of this. And it was— and, and, so then I had a very cyclical depression. It linked in, um, to the season changes to a new school term, and also with exams. And then, I chose to become an architect, which taken seven years. So I just ATTRACTED this pain (laughs) all throughout my 20s.

Paul: Oh my God!

Emma: (laughing) Yeah, so it just became recurrent depressive disorder. So ...

Paul: Describe the, the first depressive episode that you recall experiencing.

Emma: So, I was 16, 17, and, um, it was just bleak. Just everything—there was no joy, um. I felt anxious constantly. I wasn't sleeping. So, you know, going three, four, five days without sleep. You just kind of enter this really bizarre, um, world where—

Paul: Was the anxiety keeping you awake?

Emma: Yeah! Fear of, fear of, uh, not doing well at school. This horrible boyfriend. You know, letting my parents down, because this school was really expensive. And, and, uh, my mum's a therapist. And so, she was doing everything she could to help me. But my dad was very anti-medication, already kind of admitting that his daughter was ill. So there was this real kind of, um, clash between them of how they would sort of look after me. And—anyway, in the end, I did get some sleeping tablets, which helped. And then, I took a gap year. And it was then that I took anti-depressants—which, to be perfectly honest, Paul, they saved my life MULTIPLE times throughout, you know, my 20s and into my 30s. So, yeah, just a real—I—uh, I was just so suicidal. And I was 16—and you just don't know, you know—the time ... not ... mental health wasn't really talked about. My mum's a therapist, so I knew about it. But she's specialized in eating disorders. So, it's very different, instead of teenage depression. I was just sort of delusional.

Paul: Ok.

Emma: It, it was horrible. And, I, I had these, like—so, in my back, when I'm a bit stressed, between my, uh, shoulder blades ... like, it was so tense that I kind of had these visions that I was growing wings. And it was just, like, completely bizarre. My parents are very religious, so I had all of that thrown in. And then, you know, fooling around with my first boyfriend and losing my virginity—it was just—so, I had this kind of, like, uh, sex before marriage, you know. I'm gonna go to hell.

Paul: What, what religion?

Emma: Anglican.

Paul: Ok.

Emma: So, Church of England. But, high, high church. So it's close to Catholicism without—

Paul: I see.

Emma: —having a pope—

Paul: Right.

Emma: —as you can get. So, yeah, it was just—I just really feel ... I just so wish that I could go back and just say, "You're gonna be ok."

Paul: What do you, what do you think 16-year-old you would have said?

Emma: I think I would have just broken down and been like—I, I just feel so, kind of lost and alone and confused—Also, about my sexuality, because I was attracted to women. But, at that time, there was no one gay in the media; certainly not lesbian. There was just nothing.—

Paul: And you're 33?

Emma: Thirty-three, yeah.

Paul: OK.

Emma: And, I mean, it's come on leaps and bounds. It's just wonderful now. And, you know, with same-sex marriage and equal rights and all of this stuff. There's still a long way to go. But, uh ... so, yeah, it was just a really, really confusing time. And I think even if you don't have mental health issues, being a 16-year-old is bloody tough.

Paul: Yes. yeah, no matter what country you in—

Emma: Yeah. and, and then we make, we make our teenagers decide what they want to do for the rest of their life. And make them do these crazy exams. It's just bonkers.

Paul: Talk about the body image issues. We talked a little bit at lunch—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: —yesterday about that, and if you're comfortable sharing about your mom.

Emma: Hmm ... oh, my lovely mom. Yeah, it's, it’s very interesting. So, she's, um, she is a therapist. And she came to that later on in her life. And, um, and she's got a very ... she has a very tricky relationship with food herself. She only told me once that she has, had a full-blown eating disorder. I was probably about 12 or 13, and uh—

Paul: When she said it to you, she was speaking as if her eating disorder was in the past, or that she was current—

Emma: In the past.

Paul: Ok.

Emma: Very much in the past. So she said, "You should probably know that I had bulimia." And I was like, "Ok." And it was, it was, it was this moment where—I don't know if you had it with your parents, where they, they, they just always up on this pedestal. They're like your superheroes, and you think they always tell the truth, and they can mend everything. And then, this kind of veil came down—actually, she's just human, And in the one sense, you should think, "Well, that's good." But in another sense, I was like, "But ... you've lied." And you—and then, you know, you sort of viewed, I viewed her in another way. And she's got such a difficult relationship with food. It's so disordered and, um, she's tiny. And you just think—

Paul: She said that to you, or you are speaking for yourself—

Emma: I’m speaking for myself—

Paul: ok.

Emma: —that she has this—she doesn't think that she's got a problem, which is hilarious because she clearly does.

Paul: Uh huh.

Emma: And, uh—

Paul: Can you be specific?

Emma: She's just ... she's very controlled about what she eats. She has TINY portions. And I remember once, when I was little, um—cuz you know you have your dinner plate and you have your side plate, or your—yeah, your smaller plate. So, she used to serve my dad, me and my brother on normal-sized plates. And then she'd have a little plate. And then, once day, she laid out a normal-sized plate. And apparently I said to her, "Oh look, Mommy. You've got a plate the same size as us." You know. So, so either—so it's always been there, this kind of presence of this food. And it's absolutely incredible that my brother and I sort of came off unscathed and not affected in, in that respect. I mean—he’s a complete high—he's a very intelligent guy. Complete high achiever, winning at life—#winningatlife—uh, you know, marriage with kids and doing very well. And, and ... and for me, it just, just came—you know, I'm lucky in a way that my mental health has just stayed very much anxiety and depression. It didn't kind of, morph into anything else, like an eating disorder—

Paul: Oh, ok. For some reason I gleaned from our lunch yesterday, uh—I think I was making some joke about my belly—Oh, I spilled food on my shirt and I was talking, talking about my big gut—

Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!

Paul: And you just—

Emma: Oh, definitely!

Paul: —kind of said that the ... I, uh, that I wasn't the only one. That—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: —that was hard on, on—

Emma: On themselves. But I don't if that is ... I don't know if that's linked to my mum. I think that's just from the kind of culture that we live in. You know, you're so, um ... everything that you see on the TV and magazines and stuff. And on social media—God, to be a child now must be horrible. So, yeah, body image issues ... but I don’t think it's related to my mum. I think it's just, um … from myself. That I just think I'm really like—Oh! Also, one boy at school said that my bum wiggled when I walked. Now, some may say, "Well, that's a compliment!" I did NOT take that as a compliment. So I've just always got—and I'm quite—I've got quite, like a pear shape any way. And, um ... and, yes. So, quite curvy. And, also, I think we, we touched on yesterday that, um, when I take, um, medications—certainly for mental health—they often make me a bit slimmer. And then, when I come off them—hurray! I'm off of my medication. But, oh, hello weight! So, it's like a constant thing. And it is getting easier as I get older, which is good.

Paul: What is getting easier?

Emma: The worrying so much about my weight—

Paul: I see.

Emma:— and my appearance.

Paul: So, you … are you currently on or off meds?

Emma: I am ON the meds! I'm on something called Vortioxetine, which, um, is quite, uh ... quite new in the UK. I think it's only be—that's not the American name. I can't—Brintellix, I think it's called in America—

Paul: Ok.

Emma: So it's been going there for three years and a year here. And it's by far the best medication I've been on. It's just wonderful.

Paul: It helps with the anxiety and the depression?

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: And is it, you know—you 've spoken about having a cyclical depression that like, every two years—

Emma: Every two years.

Paul: Have you experienced that two-year period with this med yet?

Emma: No, no. I'm like, a year and a half—

Paul: Are you nervous?

Emma: (chuckles) Yeah, yeah. But then, do you know what it is, Paul, is that I—so, previously, I've had a relapse, gone on medication, got well, come off the medication, time ticks on ... and then I have a relapse. Whereas this time, I'm not taking that risk; I'm staying on these meds, thank you very much.

Paul: High fucking five!

Emma: YEAH (laughs)!

Paul: So many of us, myself included, just want to cling to that belief that we don't need meds—

Emma: Don't need it! Yeah, I know—

Paul: And I know so many people suffering. And I always like to say, "What are the side effects of NOT being on meds?"

Emma: No! Honestly.

Paul: And, and make a, make list.

Emma: Yeah!

Paul: For me, getting—not being able to get out of bed, uh, being sad, um, withdrawing from people. That's a lot worse that occasional restless legs or gaining a few pounds—

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Paul:—or whatever it happens to be.

Emma: Yeah, absolutely.

Paul: But, of course, there are also some meds that I've been on where the side effects are a nightmare—

Emma: Oh my God.

Paul: —and untenable. And—but the good news is there are so many different meds—

Emma: Yeah, there is.

Paul: —that you can try. And I feel that meds should be a last resort; that we should try—

Emma: I completely agree

Paul: —unless someone is in crisis.

Emma: Yeah. No, totally.

Paul: Because there are so many things we can do. And, which brings us to ... yoga!

Emma: YEAH!

Paul: how have you found yoga to, to help you?—

Emma: To help me. So, I, um—it was about five years ago. And, uh, I was having a relapse—happy times. And I was reading a magazine, and it had an article about mindfulness. And, I was going through—we are, we are, um, lucky in the UK that we've got the NHS. But, the mental health side of it is so completely overstretched. People just are not getting the support they need. You know, you're—

Paul: It, it, it could take them months for—

Emma: MONTHS!

Paul: —an appointment. And then they get—

Emma: Six months.

Paul: —six appointments, maybe?

Emma: Yeah, six appointments and then that's it. And so, for me, um, I've done private counseling. I've seen quite a few therapists over the years. But always, um, CBT. So, you know, you're in there, you've got your set amount of time, and then you're done. And I was, I was really keen to try this mindfulness course. So I knew that if I went through, um, the, uh, the GP, then I'd be referred to the mental health team. And I had to jump through a few hoops. So I did, um ... I did like a full week course about coping with anxiety. And, and then I had a one-to-one session. And then, I got to go on this eight-week course for mindfulness. And it was about half-way through, um, and, uh—we had a two-hour class. And there was that homework for the week. So, there we were, doing the ... what the teacher referred to a mindful movement. And I just LOVED it. It was, it was wonderful.—

Paul: Can you describe what you thought and felt?

Emma: I thought, you know—it, it was quite similar to the movements of tai chi. So I thought, "Well this is a bit, you, sort of floaty; a bit airy-fairy." But, the stillness that it gave me, and—

Paul: During it of afterwards?

Emma: During. During and after. And, the fact that through doing it I felt very different about my body. And, um, there's, there's a term, I think it's called "finding your flow:" when you do something and you're completely taken out of yourself. So I get it also when I sketch, or when I sing or something, you know. And I, and I definitely found my flow, which is ironic cuz there's also "flow yoga." But, um ... so yeah, so I went back the following week. And, um, and the teacher was like, "So, what you've been doing this week is yoga." and I was like, "I LOVE this yoga!" (Paul chuckles) And, so that's when I started pursuing it. I went to a few classes and—

Paul: Before, before we go there—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: —I'd like to know in more detail what it, what it was. Cuz for the person listening that has never tried it—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: —I want—

Emma: Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul:—I want to paint a picture as detailed as possible—

Emma: Of course.

Paul: —If you can recall what it felt like in your body, how you felt about yourself or the world. And if none of that applies, that's fine too, but—

Emma: No, it totally does. So, so the way that, um, the classes is structured is you arrive and you have a few minutes at the start of class where you're sitting on the mat. Bit of idle chit-chat. And then you have, um, pranayama, which is breathing exercises. So, um—and the breath is just so important. It's a real barometer of how you're feeling. You know, if it's shallow, um, and quick. Or if it's length ... you know, long breaths and relaxed. So, that was really interesting. And you automatically, just within the first five minutes, your, your brain, your, um, parasympathetic nervous system is kicking in. So, your cortisol levels are dropping. And, um—

Paul: Your heartbeat’s slowing—

Emma: Heartbeat's slowing. you know, you’re finding yourself on the mat. the teacher will say things, you know, "Let go of your day so far. Don't this about your to-do list for this evening or for the rest of the day. So, here you are. This is time, be grateful for, for taking time out of your day for yourself. So you do your pranayama—

Paul: And they ne ... and they never say eventually we all die.

Emma: No! No. Because there are a lot of people—

Paul: Cuz ... yeah, that seems like a mistake.

Emma: I think it might put them in the wrong mood—

Paul: Yes.

Emma:—potentially. So, yes. Then you do a meditation and—sheer bliss in my mind—and, and it, it, can be any sort of meditation. You know, you're listening to sounds, or you're doing a body scan, or it's a visualization. Just a short one at the mi ... at the beginning. Then you start doing your warm-up. So, you're starting to unite breath with movement. And you're subtly warming up your body. And, um, and it's just really nurturing for gentle, um—and you might be in a sort of a powerful class. So, like an ashtanga or something, um ... in which case, it's very, kind of regimented. And, you know. But, you, and you get quite a good workout. Or you might be doing something a little bit more softer, like a hatha or a yin. But, basically you then go into the more, that's what's called asana. So, the more practical movement side of yoga. And, um … so what's so interesting is, because you're focusing on the teacher and your breath and your movement, how you're placing your body—you're just taken out of your worries. You're not, you're not thinking, um ... I dunno, about your body in any negative way. And, AND what's wonderful about is that, you, you can be any shape or size. You can be any level of flexibility. A lot of people say, "Oh, I can't do yoga cuz I'm not flexible. Doesn’t matter! If you can’t touch your toes, it absolutely doesn’t matter. So! You do your practical side, which releases endorphins, and, um, you know, you’re getting a bit of a workout. Your heartrate is increasing, you’re getting oxygenated body ... blood around your body. And then you start the cooldown. So you do a couple of nice lengthening stretches. You find yourself in shavasana, which is, um that corpse pose, so you’re just lying on your back with your palms up, fully relaxed. And, um, and some teachers give you a little massage with some nice oil, um, or come and adjust you so that you’re in like optimum, optimum position to chill out. And, um, you might be given a blanket if it's a bit cold. So, it's really—the lights go down. It's very nourishing, very nurturing—

Paul: Is there warm milk?

Emma: Warm milk, lullabies—

Paul: Cookies?

Emma: Yeah, you know ...

Paul: Are you in a crib?

Emma: (Laughs) Of course—yeah, just gently rocking—

Paul: Or, as you would call it, a pram.

Emma: A pram; yes! And then you do another guided meditation to, to conclude. And … it's just wonderful. Then, the teacher very gently brings you 'round. Brings you back to the room. You roll onto one side. You come to sit up. And then maybe you'll do a little closing "Om," if you’re that way, inclined. And, and then you get up off your mat and genuinely it is transformative.

Paul: Be as specific as possible.

Emma: You can go in there an absolute bag of nerves—anxious, worried, stressed. And, it ... the, the journey you go through. It's, it's like having a wonderful night's sleep. Or, um, I don't know. It's, it—

Paul: Having, having gotten a massage or been in a Jacuzzi?

Emma: YES! EXACTLY the same.

Paul: Spend time with good friends.

Emma: Yes, spend time with good friends—

Paul: Seeing your favorite movie—

Emma: Favorite movie. Watching a sunset. All of that—

Paul: After you’ve laughed a lot.

Emma: Laughed a lot; exactly! And it’s, it’s—genuinely, Paul, it's changed my life. It's, it's absolutely changed my life. So, I um ... I did it for five years as just, you know, in the community. Did some YouTube videos. Shout out to Yoga with Adriene, who's on YouTube. She's the sexiest yoga teacher, and she’s superb! All accessible to all levels, if you’re a beginner, if you want to hone a certain pose, or if you’re quite advanced and you want to a really powerful flow ... she’s your girl! If you want to, you know ... if any of the listeners fancy giving it a go, google Yoga with Adriene, or YouTube her. And, um ... so, I, um … I then started looking into becoming a yoga teacher. Cuz I was a lecturer for a couple of years. And—

Paul: Lecturing about architecture.

Emma: Architecture yeah. Cuz I'm an architect. I don’t know if we said that already.

Paul: Yes; it took you seven years.

Emma: OH yes! Seven ye—Bloody hell…—

Paul: (whisper) One second.

Emma: Yes, so I lectured for a couple of years. And I absolutely l oved it. The students were wonderful. But it wasn’t—because I was working four days in practice and two days effectively teaching with the prep and then delivery. It was a LOT. So then I left the university, um, and I thought, "Well, I love teaching. I love yoga. I wonder if I could combine the two." And I did a foundation course, and that was wonderful. And then, um, I met my now best friend, uh, through yoga. And she started training, doing these foundation courses—she actually put me on to doing a foundation course. And then we went to India together, qualified. We've now set up a little business.—

Paul: So you’ve been certified to teach?

Emma: Yeah, certified to teach; fully insured. We've both probably got about 300 hours of training under our belts now, which is really good. And,uh, we're like the dynamic duo, uh. So, we've both got day jobs: she's in banking, I’m in architecture. So were quite an unusual pair. You won’t see un on Instagram, kind of doing all sort of hand stands and shit because … we've got day jobs. So, uh, yeah And it's just wonderful. And it really lends itself to my architectural job. And what’s so interesting is that, because you’re using your body, uh ... and it's very strengthening, I feel so much safer on-site up scaffolding.

Paul: Really?

Emma: Yeah. Like, going up and down the ladders, clambering around ... all of that. And that was an unexpected bonus. And also, just, you know, the fact that it helps with your mental health.

Paul: Um hmm.

Emma: Fab!

Paul: Do you find socializing less, uh, anxiety-ridden from doing yoga?

Emma: I just love socializing anyway, Paul. That's never been an issue.

Paul: Oh, ok.

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: So how would the anxiety present itself when it was at its worst? Catastrophizing?

Emma: Catastrophizing—

Paul: So it's mostly about your life, not your interactions with people and what they think of you.

Emma: No, no, no, I mean ... a little bit of what people think of me. But it was very much to do with my academic performance, being a bad daughter, letting my family down—

Paul: How, how so?

Emma: Being a bad dau[ghter]—well, I dunno. I was somewhat ... and not really a black sheep. But maybe slightly gray. I wasn’t pearly white, if you know what I mean—my poor parents; they have been through the ringer.

Paul: They’re, they’re pretty conservative. You said they’re pretty religious—

Emma: Yeah, pretty religious.

Paul: Was the red hair a, uh—

Emma: No, my—no, they would—they are so—if they—, they're like, sometimes they’re wonderful. And other times they just—you’re like, "Where did that come from?" So there’s no—if they were fully conservative all the time, we'd know where you stand. But it changes—

Paul: I see.

Emma: —which is tricky.

Paul: Can, can you give two examples of where they’re very permissive and progressive, and then where it feels like the opposite to you.

Emma: Yeah. So ... so, when I … Basically, when I came out to them. So I, so I fell in love with a woman ... well, I'd always fancied girls and boys, to be perfectly honest. And then, went to university, uh, uh, and got to— it was really nice. So I mentioned this horrible I that I'd had, and I'd lost my—

Paul: In high school.

Emma: —virginity—Yeah, lost my virginity to. And when I went to uni and I started sleeping with girls, it was like I was reclaiming that kind of new experience again. But, I was older. I was in control. And it was just—it was actually really liberating. And, so, I sort of tried to, like, dance around the idea of gayness around my family and, you know, all of this. And my dad's got the gay cousin; how did he feel about that ... la, la, la. And ended up telling my mom, you know. Cuz I started talking about my ex. I was dropping her name in conversation this, conversation that. I'm like ... they [are like], “She keeps talking about—what's going on?” You know, and I'd be like going to Brighton Pride and, you go to the gay clubs. And all of this. So there were definite hints. And, uh, and then he sort of—I sort of told them about it. And, on the one hand my mom was great. But then on the other hand she'd come up things like, “Well, you’ve never acted gay.” And, I mean, that’s not a very good example. I'm trying to think of, of where—

Paul: Well, you know, it’s not a bad example, because it's, it's a ... pretty, uh, I dunno if ignorant is too strong of a word. But it’s a pretty, um ... it is the view of someone who has not had a lot of experience with people that are, are queer or are out.

Emma: Yeah! Yeah. So, um, so, yeah that was all fun and—and my dad, he REALLY struggled with it. And, it's really, to be perfectly honest, through architecture that we now have the relationship that we do. Because he was, he was like another tutor to me while I was studying. I'd always come back home when I had a deadline, and he'd help me with my model making. We'd visit buildings together. And it was through that kind of solidary that we then found each other again, which is wonderful. And, and to be honest, he's my absolute hero. I adore him.

Paul: Has, has he come around?

Emma: Yeah! He did. He did—he was wonderful. He was so good, that—cuz I then went on to have a civil partnership. And, um, and I remember overhearing him have a conversation with someone, and ... you know, it was someone very fussy ... was like, "What?! Two women getting marr[ied] ... what's that all about?" And my dad was like, "Well, it's exactly like a normal wedding, but it's two girls. End of." And it was a wonderful celebration. And I was like, "Well done, Dad!" So, no, they both came around—cuz think they knew that if they pushed me away they'd lose, they’d lose that ... connection. So, they were very much on board.

Paul: You know, that to me is real love: is to love someone when it is personally difficult.

Emma: Yeah—

Paul: No matter whether it’s coming from a place of ... ignorance or not. It's still their struggle, and the fact that they chose you over their discomfort—

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: It is SO huge.

Emma: Yeah, and they’re very religious as well. So they had to deal with that. That's not easy.

Paul: And ... Any, any snapshots from childhood or adolescence—I just love stories. Any, any story that you'd like to share about a struggle or a beautiful epiphany, or something that informed you about the world or yourself, or something that was traumatizing—

Emma: Yeah

Paul: —I mean, you know, we haven’t talked about, about the boyfriend

Emma: The BOYFRIEND! Oh my God!

Paul: —who was an ass—

Emma: Oh, Paul! That poor 16-year-old. Yeah he was just—

Paul: You poor 16-year—

Emma: Poor me!

Paul: Yes.

Emma: From back in the day. Yeah, so .. Christ. He, um—

Paul: Was he your age?

Emma: Yeah, my age. we met on a night out at a pub. And, um—

Paul: Drinking age 16?

Emma: Yeah! I was drinking at 14. It was very ...—

Paul: Loose.

Emma: Very loose back in the day. You didn't need ID, uh, you’d get your oldest-looking friend to go to the pub ... uh, to the corner shop to get a bottle of vodka and a bottle of lemonade. You’d pour out half the lemonade, pour the vodka in ... sorted!

Paul: Yes.

Emma: And, and—And also, like getting into nightclubs. You just have one friend who looks older and then she’d vouch for the younger-looking people, and you’re in! It's so different now. So, yeah, we met on a night out. And, we went for coffee at the weekend. And, he seemed sort of all right; he was a nice enough chap. And I just, I just don’t really know why I ... hung around. Maybe it was because he was a bit of a bad boy, you know. So, girls were often attracted—well, and women—are often attracted to someone that was a bit unusual. And he was so unusual. So he ... he lived with his mum on a council estate, and—

Paul: Which, which is what, uh, Americans would call "project."

Emma: Yeah, perfect!

Paul: Um hmm.

Emma: Yeah, exactly that. And, there’s me in a private school with very successful parents. And—

Paul: This is the making of a mediocre PG movie.

Emma: Isn't just! Star-crossed lovers.

Paul: With a WONDERFUL soundtrack.

Emma: Yeah; totally!

Paul: Yes.

Emma: Disney all over. And, uh, so yeah ... there we were, and he was the most manipulative… horrible, calculating person I have ever met.

Paul: Gimme some stories.

Emma: So, I ... would—I worked in the pub as well, just washing up. Cuz you have to be 18 to serve behind the bar. But, you could be 16 to work in the kitchen. So I was washing up, and didn’t really earn much money: £2.50 an hour or something. And. he didn’t ... somehow he'd end up getting all of my money. And he was very verbally abusive. He said that I was really stu[pid]—he would get ... oh my God! I just had a sudden memory. So, he was doing English, as was I, at school, for A levels. And he would get me to write essays that he would then mark. Like, what the fuck is that?!

Paul: WHAT?!

Emma: Yeah!

Paul: You would write essays—

Emma: I'd write essays—

Paul: —just for him—

Emma: —FOR him! And he would mark them. THAT'S weird! I'd completely forgotten about that, just suddenly .. suddenly I remembered.

Paul: What do you think you, um—

Emma: Why did I do—

Paul: —fe, fell under that, that spell?

Emma: I DON'T KNOW! I've literally got no idea. So, anyway, he was very ... to begin with, um ... you know, it was, it was—the sex was completely normal. He'd already lost his virginity, I'd lost mine, absolutely fine. But then it became a kind of weapon and a way to control me. And, obviously—I'm sure everyone remembers this, when you’re living at your parents’ house and you’re trying to have a little quickie and, you know, "They're gone out for half an hour; let’s nip upstairs." All of this. So, that was all there. And, God, I just remember feeling sick in my stomach when my parents were in and we were fooling around ... YUCK! Horrible. Then we—

Paul: Why were you feeling sick to your stomach? Because of being with him—

Emma: Yeah.

p :— or because your parents were there? Or—

Emma: Combination of the, of the two.

Paul: Ok.

Emma: So them we started doing all sorts of strange things and, you know ... having sex in weird places, and ... UGH!

Paul: At his behest?

Emma: At his behest. Graveyards, swimming pools, all of this strange stuff.

Paul: What, what do you think, um, was the payoff for him: your discomfort?

Emma: Probably. probably, cuz he loves that. ANYWAY, he then became very rude about how I dressed, um—

Paul: By the way, how did you do on the essays?

Emma: Pfft! Terribly! Of COURSE he marked me badly.

Paul: (laughs)

Emma: I mean, isn’t that completely bonkers?!

Paul: Yes. um, yes. I mean, the fact that he would give you 100 ... (laughs)

Emma: Yeah. A-star!

Paul: "And then he loved me!"

Emma: (laughs) Yes. Oh dear. So, yes. He then became very verbally abusive, um, commenting about how I dressed. You know, that I’d look like a slut. And I really, I really was never ... you know, dressed in any way too provocative, too provocatively. And, and then he started getting very physically abusive. So he’d sort of hit me, throw things at me. And then we broke up, which was, uh,—

Paul: You broke up with him.

Emma: I broke up with him. And it was a very wise idea. And it was about the same that we were getting our exam results. So we were all, you know, party, party, party; out and about. We were in a nightclub, and he was there. And he picked up this massive metal chair and threw it at me. Picked up two bottles, threw them at me. So then I left the club. Then he chased after me, threw his mobile phone at me, shouting all these things under the sun. Completely bonkers. So, anyway, but he still had this spell over me. We both had this gap year—get this: So I went to a ... so ... (incredulous sigh) we call it a “gap YAAR,” cuz, like ... you know, “We're SO posh. Like, we’re gonna go to Africa and, like, I’m gonna go save the children on my 'gap YAAR.'” So, I was on my gap year, and, um, and I went to Africa—completely stereotypical—and I was going to go to, um, Malawi. And then HE, went with the same organization and went to the neighboring country, organized to go to the—So then I ... I had to tell the company about this. And, um ... cuz he sort of sent me this text message to say "Guess who’s going to be in the neighboring country?" And they do all this training together, cuz they've got clusters of, uh, countries in the east and in the west—

Paul: Um hmm.

Emma: —the opposite way—with my hands; I'm waving my hands. And, so then I had to move to the other side of the country. I ended up going to Uganda, which was more of like a party place, cuz they had gorilla tracking and white-water rafting, bungee jumping all available, so actually the—

Paul: Gorillas loves to party!

Emma: They LOVES to party!

Paul: Yes.

Emma: Full moon parties all the way. So anyway ... so I moved. That was very strange. So then, somehow, he ended up coming over to Kenya, which is where we flew in and out of, the day that I was there.

Paul: Um hum.

Emma: it was just completely bonkers. then, and when I was back in the UK he gets a job in the same pub as me. And you’re just like, "What the fuck is going on here?!" It's just so weird—

Paul: Yeah, that's, that, that can’t all be all coincidence.

Emma: No!

Paul: Yes.

Emma: No, no, no. He’s starting to follow me. He, he would text my friends to find out where I was and turn up ... very strange. So, I then did a tour of Europe; it was wonderful. Went after uni; completely lost contact with him ... all good. Then Facebook comes along. And it's all—and it starts at all universities. So, you know, everyone was on there. He befriends me; fine. We sort of talk every now and then; absolute fun. At this point, I now have a girlfriend ... and very happy. And, we get engaged, as does he, he also gets engaged. So stupid me thinks, "Oh no; of course we can both meet up back home! Of COURSE we can go for a nice drink and just wish each other well. Toast to our past; here's our past behind us. We’re both gonna get married, go off in very separate, different directions. Well, guess what? He’d been doing in his time while he was at university? He switched majors and was then doing, uh, theology. And he’d become a Christian. And here I was, a gay ... you know, in a lesbian relationship—

Paul: No wonder he wanted to meet you.

Emma: Yeah, because he wanted to try and convert me. He said I was going to hell. He said that I need to end my relationship because God isn’t happy about it. He then—

Paul: Was your partner there as well?

Emma: No.

Paul: Ok.

Emma: No. He then was sending me sermons all about homosexuality and religion. I mean, this guy ...

Paul: So, what ... when did you ... did you, have you ever cut contact with him?

Emma: Yeah. No, completely. Completely and absolute, cuz it was ... I then had a cataclysmic relapse on the back of this. Like, literally—

Paul: Of, of, the, the depression—

Emma: With my depression Yeah, no, no. I, um ... I—

Paul: And, and before we go to that—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul:—did you say anything to him, when he was trying to convert you?

Emma: yeah, I did. I said stuff like, "Ok, if God is love, why would God want me to end a relationship that is making two people very happy? End the relations ship, then two people are very UN-happy." You know, I’m still gonna fancy girls regardless if I’m with someone or not. And he was like, "Yeah, but it's all about the act. And held quote some quote in the Bible ... about ... something about men, you know ... they shouldn't … if you could think the—if you can think the thought but not do the act, then that's ok.

Paul: I love people that cherry-pick—

Emma: I KNOW!

Paul: —out of the Bible. You know, "Let's look over the part about having slaves and stoning—"

Emma: Stoning people—

Paul: "—stoning people to death."

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: Yes.

Emma: That’s fine!

Paul: yes

Emma: You can't talk to a woman when she on her period and all of this. Yeah. No, completely bonkers. So—

Paul: And would it have been interesting if you had said to him, "I think it makes YOU unhappy?"

Emma: YESSS! Yeah! Absolutely.

Paul: Yeah.

Emma: So, so ... no. So I had this cataclysmic relapse, the worst one I’ve ever had. You know, psychiatrist. But—I, I, I pro—possibly should have been sectioned, but my mum intervened; she moved in with me. And ... (sighs) God, I was ill. It was probably the darkest time of my life, actually.

Paul: Can you share any details?

Emma: Yeah. I remember—the way that I try to describe it is that I had this ... there was a picture of my life, and I could see it and it looked lovely. But I just felt rotten. I felt—again, very stupid. I was struggling ... I was in my fifth year of university at this point. So, it was sort of a master's level. And, um ... and, I just felt rotten. I felt dirty. I felt useless, stupid. I genuinely believed, hand on my heart, that the world would be a better place if I wasn’t in it. And, and it's so, it's so sad cuz when you’re so depressed and you’re so suicidal, you actually believe that, by you not being there it solves things. No, it doesn't; it just leaves a whole host of people completely distraught and very guilty because they couldn’t help that person. So, um, I tried to take my life; thank God it didn’t work. And, yeah … after, after (unintelligible) and … my partner, eh, was just distraught. And it was, it was horrible. It was a dark, dark time. And, and, and—But in a way, I think I needed to get there. I needed to be at that point, you know—they say you need to hit rock bottom; that was my ABSOLUTE rock bottom. And it took my mum—oh, bless her—she, uh, you know—when I think back to what she did and … I remember, like, when I was thanking her, I was like, “You gave me life in the first place, and then you save my life?” And she, she was incredible. She completely put her clinic on hold, she moved in with me. She probably lived with me for two months. And, um, just taught me how to, how to live again. And it was … yeah ... incredible. (Long pause) Yeah. (Long pause) Crazy.

Paul: Man, you’re, you’re, uh (long pause) the shit that you’ve been through, and that you’ve out the other side, uh. Obviously, you still have to do things to, to manage it—

Emma: Yeah.

Paul: But, but you have actively sought tools—

Emma: Hmm ...

Paul: —and you’ve accepted that help comes in a form that you weren’t crazy about

Emma: Yeah

Paul: Taking meds

Emma: Yeah

Paul: And … it’s, it’s such a great example of … if we just let go—And do you feel that hitting the rock bottom was a way of somebody prying your fingers off your idea of, um, kind of what, uh … how everything should be—

Emma: Should be? Yeah, totally, totally. And, uh, and it’s weird. But you know what’s so fascinating? Is, is having tried to end my life I have absolutely no fear of death. Like—

Paul: What do you think that’s about?

Emma: I’ve no idea! I think because, I think because in a way, I’m sort of on … like, I feel so lucky to still be alive. And—

Paul: You’re in the bonus round.

Emma: Totally! So anything that happens now—I mean, my current … I’ve sort, I’ve touched on this in emails to you. For … the current thing my partner and I—so I’ve now switched teams! I’m now with a lovely boy, and, and—

Paul: So, you got divorced?

Emma: I got—oh, yeah! Oh yeah, I forgot about that bit. Yes, I did. It was called a dissolvement with a civil partnership. So, um, so my partner and I, we got married. We were quite young: I was 25, she was 23. And, um, the plan was—in the UK, if you’ve got, if you … if you’re in a civil partnership and you have a child, one of you bears the child, then both mothers can be on the birth certificate. So, that was one of the reasons that we got hitched. And the plan was always to have children. She sort of, sometimes she blew hot and cold about it, but, you know, we did stuff like … cuz we were, we met at university. So we’d go to the library, we’d research the psychology on same-sex parents, you know. We both wanted to have careers, so we looked into the impact of having, you know, a child being in nursery from a very young age—actually, it’s quite good for them. Obviously, you don’t want to just abandon them; of course not. But, you know, it’s good for their social skills and all of this. So, three months in to the we .. to the marriage—I mean, I … to be perfectly honest, Paul, I, there was a shift on the honeymoon. There was a definite … she took a step back.

Paul: She pulled away

Emma: She pulled away; for sure. And then three months in—

Paul: How, how did you experience that?

Emma: So … (sighs) she was … she just withdrew from me. You know, the kind of light-hearted fun that we had was sort of gone. And she was much more concerned about her own image. I love a nap, and … so I’d go off and have a nap. And she’d go a play computer games, she loves computer games; fine. But, she just kind of … put, put what she want to do as more of a priority than, than us, you know. Anyway … so, we come back from honeymoon and, uh, I lose my job. It was in the recession, so I was nearly finished with my training, but you need to have a job to do you final bit; you need to work and study. And I was made redundant, there was very limited work. I was a waitress and a cleaner, and my dad, who is also an architect, said, “Come on, move back home. Work in my firm, and you can qualify.” And I resisted it and resisted it. And then I was cleaning the floor. I said to myself, “Come on now. You have got two degrees; get your ass back home. Get yourself qualified.” So, my partner and I made the decision—I was gonna, I was gonna try and commute, cuz we were … we lived about three hours away. But that just, you know—we were newly married! You kind of, you wanna, you wanna take your unit with you. So we both moved up there. And, and then as we were—cuz I had a house, I had a house, uh, where I was studying. So, we sold it and we were moving up. And as we, as we were doing the house up to sell it, she just completely changed her mind! She was like, “Absolutely don’t want children; never wanted them. I don’t know what you’re talking about. What do you mean when we have kids we’ll do x, y, zed?” I was like, “What?!” She’s like, “No, I don’t want them.” And I sort of thought, “Well, that quite a big … that quite a big deal.” Now, at the same time—so, we had, we had a relocation, which she wasn’t pleased with. She then started talking to her ex, who was VERY much still in love with her—who, on her, on our wedding day, put as her status: “Don’t marry her; fuck me.” Ok, THAT’S not subtle!

Paul: (Laughs)

Emma: (Laughs) And, um … so yeah, they got back in touch. And, and I was trying—so, we then relocated and I was trying really hard to forge a life for us. You know, making friends, all of this. She didn’t want any of it. She didn’t want to go out, she didn’t want to make friends. She started spending more and more time where we li … where we HAD lived previously, spending more and more time with her ex. And, to be perfectly honest, I think she just decided that she didn’t want to be married. And she found something that I knew I couldn’t compromise on.

Paul: Hmm …

Emma: And we had therapy. I thought there might have been something wrong with me, cuz I wanted children so much. And, you know, it sort of took my friends to, “Actually, wanting children—that’s kind of a natural thing. It’s not really something you can control.” And I was saying to my dad, “I think I need therapy, cuz I really want children.” And my dad was like, “I think you need couple’s counseling—”

Paul: Yeah.

Emma: —“because you want different things.” So we went to therapy. I mean, I was kind of hoping that the therapist would turn to me and say, “NO! You guys need to break up.” But, anyway, it ended up being my decision. So, the marriage ended. And, um, and that was very tough. And, uh, she is now remarried and will probably have children. But that’s cool.

Paul: Yeah.

Emma: I’m kind of … I’m very happy for her. I, uh, it just wasn’t meant to be. And, actually … so, the story with, with my partner now is hilarious. So, um … it—and my ex was quite controlling, so she didn’t want me talking to anybody about it. She didn’t want me texting anyone, talking to any friends, talking to my parents about the issues we were having. So, anyway, I didn’t know if, if Adam knew. And, uh, and it was the middle of the night, and I’d seen that held been online. So I sent his a text saying, “Hi. I can really do with being cheered up. And I see you’re online, so you’re awake. Is there any chance we could just, you know, have a chat?” He’s like, “I’ve got a bucket load of cheer-up; what’s going on?” I said, “I’m not sure you’re aware, but my partner and I … we’re, we’re breaking up and it’s really tough.” He was like, “Yup, I had heard on the grapevine. And at least I’ve, I’ve now go the opportunity to slip you one,” which means sleep with you—

Paul: Oh, ok! (laughs)

Emma: —which is HILARIOUS! And, um, it turns out he’d actually had a crush on me for YEARS!

Paul: Really?

Emma: And we had this really cheeky, kind of, innuendo banter going on—

Paul: Um hmm

Emma: So there was always that. And, yeah, basically, we met up and I literally fell in love just … he’s the most incredible person that you would ever have the pleasure of meeting. He is so human and … you know sometimes when you’re having an issue you go to your partner and you want them to kind of be on your side—

Paul: Um hum.

Emma: —he will always see both sides of the coin. And, he is so loving … he, he loves. I’ve, I’ve experienced unconditional love from my parents. I’m very blessed to have had that. But to have it from a partner—

Paul: Yeah. That’s really …

Emma: It’s incredible! It’s life-changing. And, and here I am now, you know, off I go to India for five weeks; see you later. I’m gonna qualify as a yoga teacher. “Ok, darling; have a lovely time.”

Paul: Wow!

Emma: And—oh! “I’m gonna go to Ireland to meet a chap who I listen to—“

Paul: (Laughs)

Emma: “—on a podcast.” “All right, darling; have a lovely time—“

Paul: Wow.

Emma: You know, he’s just—I rang him up about doing the podcast; fully supportive, whatever decision you make, you go for it.

Paul: Wow.

Emma: It’s … it’s wonderful.

Paul: And how long have you been together?

Emma: Six years, next month.

Paul: Oh, that’s fantastic.

Emma: Incredible.

Paul: And you guys live together?

Emma: We live together. We are co-habiting partners. And … AND he popped the question in December. And, it was—so we’re getting married next year—

Paul: Wow!

Emma: —which is just wonderful and I can’t wait to be his wife.

Paul: Wow.

Emma: I’m just so looking forward to—and we’re, we currently … (sigh) our current—

Paul: I think your ex-boyfriend should give you away.

Emma: I think he should; he should MARRY us!

Paul: Yes, and I think your ex-wide should do the ceremony.

Emma: Yeah, completely.

Paul: And all four of you walk up the aisle—

Emma: Together.

Paul: Together, but just it’s, it’s … you’re … you can’t quite fit—

Emma: Can’t fit, so it’s a kind of shoulder squeeze.

Paul: As awkward as the whole thing has been all along, really, just in a two-minute sequence.

Emma: I would really enjoy that. I think, I think that would be a ticketed event.

Paul: (Laughs)

Emma: People would pay. Uh, Lord. So, so now my current, which I had emailed you about, is infertility.

Paul: Um hum.

Emma: And it’s heartbreaking. It’s just so tough. So there I was, and I remember when, when I fell in love with my ex-wife. And I remember thinking to myself, “This might mean, you know, if I’m in a single-sex relationship, it might mean that I’m not a mother.” Found out, actually, there’s these singled sperm donors, or you could adopt. You know, there’s all sorts of ways. So, fab; I’m gonna be a mum. Then my ex-wife doesn’t want to be a mother. So I’m like, “Ok, I’m gonna end this relationship.” I looked into adopting on my own—absolutely fine; fab. I fall in love with a GUY! Well, what do you got? He’s got baby-making stuff in his pants. Wonderful! We can, you know, this is great. And, so four years ago we made the decision, um—he’s a bit older than me. He turns 40 this year. So, yeah, four years ago, we made the decision to start trying for a baby. And it was very exciting. And, it didn’t, didn’t work, didn’t work, didn’t work. So after two years, we went to see a fertility doctor. And, uh, turns out—oh my God, let me tell you the story. So … we turn up for our consultation Adam’s had his tests. We go in; it’s a male consultant. There’s a male, uh, trainee doctor, and he says, “Is it ok if he sits in for the consultation?” I was like, “Absolutely fine.” And, uh, and he goes, “Right, ok, yeah, yup … we’ve got your, your test results. And, uh, and, uh, I’m very pleased to say you’re …” So they—I think they go up to like three million sperms per drop of semen or something. And they were like, “You’ve got so many that it’s off the charts. We can’t even count them, there’s so many.” And these three guys were like, “Um hum!”

Paul: Chuckles

Emma: Giving each other, like a little, like manly pat on the back—

Paul: Yeah.

Emma: —like nodding. And I was like, “All right guys! This isn’t like a pissing contest!”

Paul: Right!

Emma: So anyway, Adam’s got super spunk, which is wonderful for him. I, unfortunately, have some issues with my eggs. Now … it could be linked to my mental health, my issues that I’ve had because I’ve had so many recurrent bouts of depression. So that’s a shitter—

Paul: And, and, and does that … something that you … were informed of?—

Emma: No—

Paul: Or it’s just kind of your feeling?

Emma: It’s not just my feeling. It is, it’s definitely … so, I’ve got a psychiatrist and I’ve got this, uh, fertility consultant. And they both think that it could absolutely have has contributing factors—which is a complete shitter. Now throw into the mix that if I want adopt, they’ll obviously go through my medical record.

Paul: Um huh.

Emma: And they’ll see, “Oh, mental health; hurrah.” So that is a potential stumbling block. And it’s really tough, and we’re going through IVF at the moment. We’ve had one round that wasn’t successful. And at the end of this month, we go for round two. And it’s a complete head fuck.

Paul: I bet. I bet. We’ve done a couple of episodes—

Emma: Yeah!

Paul: —with women that have struggled—Cheryl Klein was a good episode. And she talked about that struggle, and how as much as she intellectually knew it was … there was nothing wrong with her as a person, she felt like a failure as a woman.

Emma: Oh, completely! Completely. That is … I just … like I genuinely don’t know. If I can’t bear a child, I don’t … I, I literally have no idea how I’ll cope with that. Because I’m, I’m very … I’m a real feminist. I’m very … I’m confident—I’d like to think I’m a strong person. But I think that might break me.

Paul: Why?

Emma: Because, because it’s something that I know that I’ve always wanted. And now, being a mother, being a mother—it doesn’t have to … I don’t have to have had my child. I’ve felt so much love for other children that adopting is cool. Like, I’m really down with that. But I think … because of the cyclical, um, hormones that women that have, you know, every month with the bleeding and the ovulating and la la la la la la. I think probably every month, I will at some point feel I wish I could have had my own baby. And, and, you know, being pregnant and giving birth and all of this. And I think that … and I just, I really think that that will stick with me. You know, I’d be ... I would love to adopt. I think Adam and I would make FABULOUS adoptive parents … especially, as I said cuz he’s so bloody lovely and just grounded in a really positive influence in the world. He’s one of the good guys. But, I think … I think—maybe, maybe with time, actually, it will ease up—

Paul: Yeah.

Emma: —you know. And when I get past a stage where I would have been able to have children, maybe that will go—

Paul: Yeah.

Emma:—you know, when you don’t get periods and stuff. But it’s, um … it’s a head fuck. I also like—Christ, I was at a barbecue the other day and there was this pregnant woman. She was eating a prawn. I lost my shit! I had to take myself away just to have a little cry.

Paul: Yeah.

Emma: I was like, “If I was pregnant—” And it’s completely like, it’s her body, it’s her bump. She could do whatever she likes. If she wants to eat a prawn, let the woman eat a prawn. But the irrational part of my brain was like, “I would—if I was pregnant, I would NEVER eat a prawn!” It’s just ridiculous. You turn into a complete … nonsensical human being.

Paul: Yeah. It’s like emotions don’t always make sense.

Emma: No.

Paul: It’s, it’s so frustrating. But the FEELING of it is so intense sometimes—

Emma: So intense, yeah.

Paul: Yeah. Anything else you’d like to share before we, uh, wrap up?

Emma: No! Just, I’d just like to, just thank you for having me and for being who you are and doing what you do. You’re just such an incredible inspiration. And, I must say, like thank you also to the other people that have been on your podcast—

Paul: Yes.

Emma: —because, um, I’ve been listening for five years, and I’ve had a couple of relapses in that time. And it’s just been such a source of comfort. So, um—

Paul: Wow. That means a lot to me.

Emma: —The community that you’ve create … you should just be so proud.

Paul: Wow. Someday, I will.

Emma: (Laughs) One day, you’re working on it. (Laughs)

Paul: Thank you.

End of Interview

[01:01:42] Many thanks to, uh, to Emma. I’m always amazed when people share that they’ve been listening for multiple years to the podcast, because I just always assume that people are gonna either get tired of the subject matter of the podcast or get tired of me. So, it always kind of surprises me—kind of like that surprise when somebody knows you’re last name, and you’re like, “Wow, I … somebody SEES me! (Chuckles) I’m not invisible.” It’s so weird; that’s so weird.

[01:02:11] I wanna tell you guys about Casper. It is a sleep brand that continues to revolutionize its line of products to create an exceptionally comfortable sleep experience one night at a time. They have three mattress model: the original Casper, the Wave, and the Essential. And Casper mattresses are perfectly designed to soothe and cradle your natural geometry. Plus, they have a breathable design, uh, which helps you sleep cool; that’s a hugely important thing. It regulates your body ch—uh, uh temperature throughout the night. And here’s the really cool part: it’s delivered right to your door. I don’t know how they do it, but it is in a box that you can just drag into your living room or the bedroom. You open it up, and it just expands. And it’s—that’s just awesome. I love it; I’ve slept on one, and, um … it’s, it’s comfortable and, uh, I think you’d be really happy with it. So, you can, uh, get one and try their 100-night risk-free “sleep-on-it” trial. And if you think about it, you spend a third of your life sleeping. You know, actually for us, and, uh (chuckles) versus, uh, regular folk. We probably spend half our lives—maybe I should just speak for myself. But … anyway. To get 50 bucks towards select mattresses, go to casper.com/mental, and you, uh, the word mental at checkout. That’s casper.com/mental; and also use the offer code “mental” for $50 off your mattress purchase. Terms and conditions do apply.

[01:03:51] Wanna also give a shout-out to CareOf, um … for those of you that aren’t familiar with CareOf, it’s a monthly subscription vitamin service. And they deliver completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right to your door. I’ve used it; it’s super simple. You go online; you take a five-minute quiz. It’s asks you some questions about your health: what your health goals are, your lifestyle, etc. And then, they will, uh, design, uh, a regimen of vitamins or supplements that will work for you. They deliver them right to your door in little daily packets, so you can grab ‘em and be on the go. The nice thing is you don’t have to open five separate bottles of, uh, vitamins to, um, get your little pack of pills together every day. And, uh, you can modify your monthly subscription box, um, at any time. It’s pretty cool. So go check it out. For 25 percent off your first month of personalized CareOf vitamins, visit takecareof.com and enter “mental.” That’s takecareof.com and enter “mental” for 25 percent off your first month of personalized CareOf vitamins.

[01:05:09] And, I wanna give some love to Calm. If you guys have never heard of Calm, it is a really popular, uh, sleep, meditation and relaxation app. It was named Apple’s 2017 App of the Year. And if you check it out, uh, you’ll realize why. It is so, uh well thought out and, um … it’s just, it’s such a complete approach to destressing your life. They have guided meditations on anxiety, stress, focus, relationships. Brand new mediation each day called the Daily Calm. And, the part that I think is really cool, too, is, uh, the sleep stories. They’re like bedtime stories for, uh, for grown-ups. And I listened to one the other night, and it was, uh—they have great narrators reading them. And it was Stephen Fry, who I—if you don’t know him, he’s this English guy. And he’s actually a big proponent of mental health. And he has the most soothing voice and he reads a story about (chuckles) a field of lavender in France that had me so calm, I felt like I was just moving in and out of, uh, consciousness. And, um, they have tons of different stories. So, check it out. There’s a whole bunch of other stuff I’m not even mentioning. But go to calm.com/mental, and you can get 25 percent off a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of premium programs. I’m a big fan of meditation, so I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna get on my soapbox anymore about it. But meditation has changed my life. So, for a limited time, Mental Illness Happy Hour listeners can get 25 percent off a Calm subscription … Calm PREMIUM subscription at calm dot (chuckles) … calm.com. (Chuckles) Slow down, Paul! I need to go to the app right now! Calm.com/mental. It includes unlimited access to all of Calm’s amazing content. Get started today at calm.com/mental. One more time: calm.com/mental.

[01:07:22] All right, let’s do some surveys. This one … it’s a body shame survey—oops! Sorry. It’s filled out by a woman who calls herself “Diet Pro Diet Woes.” And, she writes: “Let me preface this with, I have never been fat. I have never been naturally skinny, but I have never been, had an unhealthy body mass index. So, I was put on my first diet at the age of five.” Let’s let that sink in for a minute. She was put on her first diet at FIVE! What kind of a chance does a kid have in having health esteem … healthy self-esteem when you are put on a diet at five?! Continuing: “I remembered being summoned to the scale weekly. Being weighed by my mother resulted in either a scolding for gaining or a scolding for not losing enough.” (Chuckles) At least your mom was consistent. “My mom never defined me as fat. Instead, “husky” or “big-boned” were her adjectives of choice. By the age of eight, I remember standing in front of the mirror screaming and crying because I had so much hate for my body. This is when I began self-harming. I was so ashamed. I would never be pretty. Now, 20 years later, I still hate my body. Anorexia didn’t make me happy. Bulimia didn’t make me happy. Binge eating didn’t make me happy. What’s a gal to do …” Well I would start with not listening to your fucking mom and setting some boundaries with her, if you haven’t already. One of the things that I have experienced is, uh, growth from cutting toxic people out of my life. Or, at least, setting boundaries with them or creating some type of distance. Keep ‘em, keeping them at arm’s length.

[01:09:28] This is an awfulsome moment—and thank you for sharing that, by the way—filled out by a … not sure if it’s a man or woman, but they call themselves “Dances with Foxes,” and they write: “My daughter is 10 now, and has noticed that I am not always myself and asked me what was going on. So I explained that I had anxiety and depression. Confused, she asked me to elaborate. The best analogy I could come up with was using characters from them Disney/Pixar move, “Inside Out.” I explained, ‘It’s like Fear and Sadness tied up and gagged Joy and threw her into a closet in a hostile takeover.’ Despite the dark image, we laughed about it for what felt like hours.” And then Child Protective Services came in. Thank you for sharing that. I don’t, I, I don’t know if that is an awesome thing or if that is, um, putting too much on a kid at too young. But, my hunch is that that is a healthy thing, as long as the kid knows it’s not up to them to, uh, you know, influence your mood. I’m not a therapist. (Laughs) For those of you that are waiting for it … but I did cook chicken on basic cable for 16 years and I told dick jokes around the country, and some of them, uh, involved me, uh, actually miming really hacky things. So, I think I know what I’m talking about.

[01:11:01] This is another survey by “Looney Tunes,” who was the guy who filled out, uh, a survey I read before the interview. He was the one about, uh, feeling shame because he had taunted a kid that came out as gay, uh, when they were in, in grade school. And this is from the babysitter survey. And he writes: “When I was a young boy, around eight or 10 years, a female family friend in her mid-40s would watch several children in the neighborhood. Many of these events happened in the car or at her house. The woman’s eldest daughter, who was around … between 12 and 14 was instructed to take her younger sister—who was one or two years old—place her on my lap and grind her back and forth, simulating sex. There were other children present and they were all girls. I tried not to get an erection, but I couldn’t help it. After what was deemed to be too—to be long enough, they all always asked the same thing: Was it good for you? And laugh, and joke about how the baby was girlfriend.” (That is so fucked up. Did you tell anyone/did you think it was normal/do you believe it has had any effect on you? “I did not think it was normal. However, I always felt it was my fault, because I was the boy and they were girls. I was raised thinking boys wanted sex and girls were chaste, so if something bad happened it was the boy’s fault, always. Through therapy, I’ve come to realize that a lot of my anger, rage, and disdain for all females, regardless of age, is from this abuse. I told my mom I didn’t want to go over there anymore, but never gave a reason. And without a good reason, I was not allowed to abstain from her care. I was too weak to say to my mom that they made me simulate sex with a baby and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I’ve begrudgingly told my therapist about it in my mid-20s, fully expecting to be hauled off to prison for being a sick fuck.” Isn’t that amazing, how our brain can warp our abuse into us taking responsibility for something that wasn’t, uh, our fault. Especially as, as, as children. And, um, that is the, the thing that is so confusing for boys, I think, is because sometimes, you know, there is an erection. And it is, it adds so much shame, um … But I know that for, for females as well, uh, you know, there can be, uh, excitement, even though your soul is screaming out, “I don’t want this. This is fucked up.” Remembering these things, what feelings come up? “Sadness, loneliness, empty and cold.” Do you feel damage was done? “Damage was done.” Thank you for sharing that, and I think it’s so important for society to begin … You know, as we move further towards equality, it’s so good for us to understand both the good things and the negative things about all genders, to see that we are all so much more alike than we think we are—both in good ways and bad ways. Because, then not only can we elevate each other in, in the ways that are healthy, but we can also dispel any myths that keep things stuck in the shadow because of our preconceived, uh, stereotypes about what one gender can or, or can’t do. So thank you for sharing that.

[01:14:46] This is a body shame survey filled out by a gender-fluid person, uh, who calls themself “Bat in the Belfry,” and they write: “I hate that’s it’s rebelling against what doctors are telling me to do to it. I hate that it’s in pain and can’t lose the weight that my doctor insists on. I separate my body from me because it’s very hard for us to be friends right now.” Boy, do I agree to that statement. Making friends with your body is one of the most difficult things in life. “Sometimes, we agree on activities and stamina. But days like today, because I overexerted yesterday. It holds me prisoner at home and prevents me from doing things I need to do. I have a suite of auto-immune diseases that make me and the body tired in different ways. I’m working on finding a peace with it, but today is not that day. I picked that nickname because my self feels like it’s perched in a crumbling tower, like a bat in the rafters of an old church steeple.” Thank you for that. Thank you for that. It’s funny it’s so hard to appreciote our … appreciate our health and sometimes the only window that we really do it is when we come right out of a sickness or an injury.

[01:16:10] This is the same survey. This is filled out by a guy who calls himself “Not Taking it Well Again.” And he writes: “My hair. I’m 29 years old. I began losing my hair at the age of 17. In my 20s, I’d become increasingly repulsed by the face looking back at me in the mirror, to the point when now I find it hard to leave the house. I don’t want anyone to see because this body I’m trapped in is not who I am. I’d rather have no friends than have them see me like this. It feels so uncomfortable in my skin. It’s akin to being out in public with some item of clothing that feels itchy or painful. You can carry on with your day. But the whole time, you are longing to get home and rip it off. My version of that is going home alone and closing the door behind me. When no one is looking at me, I can be who I am in my head and not what I look like. Having very jokingly brought it up in conversation recently, my friend said to me, ‘But you look like YOU!’ It floored me. The realization that being the bald guy is so much who I am to people now, that they don’t even notice … that was too much to handle. It’s only me that knows the random fork in my life that was forced upon me in my late teens. It’s only me that knows who I WOULD have been had this not happened. It’s only me who remembers who I was. It’s only me who knows how it changed me and how it changed how the world treats me. Going bald is nothing compared to the things you read out on your podcast, but somehow the triviality of it makes it all seem worse. Like I was … if I—like I was in a room with 100 people and the universe decided, ‘Hmm. I’ll have you, you, and you—premature baldness for the three of you.’ The other 97 in the room then don’t turn to me and say, ‘I’m sorry.’ They do not go away and have conversations; ‘Did you hear what happened to Roy. It’s terrible.’ I just got … they go back and forth … they just go back about living their lives. Obviously, I wasn’t chosen. I’m not the bald guy; Roy is the bald guy. But I feel the same as them; I am NOT the bald guy. The real me was killed that day I was chosen. The person I always saw myself becoming … dead! My life since has merely been a passing of time, living on the other side of who I was supposed to be; the real me trapped inside a box in my head. I try to keep going, but when the thing that triggers is unhappiness in my body, all it takes is to wake up in the morning and be at a -100. I work hard to remain happy. Sometimes I can get back to zero. Occasionally, I can get above it. But it’s hard for me to see life as anything other than punching my ticket: to be endured, rather than enjoyed.” Thank you so much for, for this survey, because it … it, it is not something that I’ve ever been able to wrap my head around. And as you were sharing this, it occurred me that what you were saying is so much like people, um, who are … feel that they are trapped in, uh, the, the body of a gender that they don’t identify with. And, I don’t think it really matters what it is that makes us feel out of place with our body. It’s what do we … how do we move from here to either find peace with it or, you know, find a way to change it, or whatever is the healthy option. But, yeah, you know, I, I think we’ve all seen a guy with a really, really bad toupee. And, and wondered why does he think that’s better being bald. And, after having read this, I think it helps me understand the … the—they mi, they might know it’s not a, uh, a good-looking toupee on them. But to them, I guess, it still feels better than, than being bald. And I never, I never considered that feeling of who you feel you should have been. And that it’s like a loss or, you know, a grief. So, thank you for that. And, if anybody doesn’t … feel that this is an important issue, I think you’re missing the point. Because you’re viewing it through how YOU view bald people, not how they view themselves. And, ultimately, isn’t, isn’t that what any type of emotional … work or struggle or … anything is about? It’s not where it ranks on a scale of things. It’s, “Ok. This is the hand we’ve been dealt? How do we, how do we handle this?” So, thank you for that.

[01:21:30] This is a body shame survey filled out by “Self-Critical Sally.” (Chuckles) I love your guys’ names. What do you dislike or like about your body? “I dislike how fat I am. I have a healthy BMI, but have more excess weight than I want. I think this insecurity started because when I was a kid, my dad used to call me Piggy, or tell me my ass was gonna be huge whenever he’d walk in on me eating chips—which usually happened after I’d just gotten home from dance class and could afford to eat a few extra calories. It angered me when he would say this. But I would silently rebel by eating the entire bag of chips, even though originally I only wanted a few. This only hurt me in the end. But there was not option to directly stand up to him, so that is how I coped. I hate my stretch marks. I got a lot of them when I went through puberty. I remember feeling self-conscious of them because I didn’t even know what they were at the time. There was a particularly traumatic instance for me when my mom took me shopping for a swimsuit when I was 11 or 12. My breasts had just developed to around a B cup, and because this happened relatively quickly I developed bright red stretch marks on them. I tried on a two-piece suit, and when I showed it to my mom she commented on my stretch marks, which made me more self-conscious about them. Then, to make it worse, the saleswoman was trying to help. And while I was changing into another swimsuit, I heard my mom talking to her, asking if they had a swimsuit with more coverage and say things like, ‘I never had stretchmarks like that.’ It was like she apologizing to the saleswoman for me not being perfect and acting as if I wasn’t right them on the other side of the curtain hearing every word she said. I hate my droopy eyelids, which I were something I didn’t even notice about myself until a very crass eye doctor told me I needed an upper eyelid lift, because they were covering the tops of my pupils and impairing my vision. She also told me that I am overweight, but even if I lose weight my eyelids would still sag. What a bitch! I’ve been to two eye doctors since her and neither one of them has said anything about my eye lids. But still, her comments on my body continue to fuel my insecurities. I don’t have an accompanying story for these last two, but I hate that I have fat love handles and pronounced hip dips instead of an hour-glass figure. And I hate that my breasts sag and my nipples point slightly downward.” I think (chuckles), I think your nipples are just shy. No, but, uh, in all seriousness, thank you, thank you for sharing that. There are—the surveys that you guys fill out … help me understand so many different things about different people’s experiences. You know, like, I’ve been doing this show eight years, and almost everything that I read on your survey was stuff that I’d … not even familiar with, that kids can have stretch marks or, um … I dunno. It, it, um … I’ve certainly heard the parents shaming their kid, uh, for what their eating. And I, I, I don’t know what’s it’s like to be a parent if you have a kid that’s becoming a problem eater. I know, I know the answer certainly isn’t shaming them. But, um, I dunno how, how you would deal, uh, with that if you were worried about it becoming a health issue. And I, I think maybe that’s the important thing, is to understand the difference between what is your anxiety as a parent about your child’s appearance versus what is your concern about your child’s health. (In 1940s Therapist voice) That’s what I’m trying to say. Well, that was almost like 1940s Therapist, uh, popped into the room. Have not seen him in a while. I know he was, uh, thinking of going to, uh, Cuba. And, uh, I tried to explain to him that it was overthrown by a communist government. And he doesn’t believe me; he needs to go see for himself. (Light chuckle)

[01:25:52] This is a body shame survey, uh, filled out by a trans man, um, who calls himself “A Trans-Ginger” and he writes: “I’m a trans man, so I’m small. And although I don’t constantly compare myself to cisgender men, I still can’t let go of these thoughts. I feel inadequate not having a penis sometimes, and it makes me feel less than. Being a gay man is hard, because the superficiality in the gay male community is real. I feel like I need validation and it led to have compulsive sex so I could be seen as a real man. I know that there are—” First of all, thank you for sharing that. And I know that there are therapists out there who, um, specialize in, uh, trans issues or just issues, uh, or sexuality, um … issues in gender, uh (chuckles) gender or sexuality issues in general. So that might be something to, to look into. Or a, uh, a, a, support group. Cuz, cuz I bet that would help. And, you know, what you shared also reminds me of, uh, a wonderful survey I had with a trans man, uh, named Loren, uh, who is the partner of, uh, Chemda, who was also a guest. And he speaks very, very eloquently about that feeling of something, something missing. And he also, I believe he also does a podcast with Judy Gold called Just Kill Me Now. So, check out—I’m sure it’s behind a paywall now, the episode with Loren. And I believe Loren is spelled L-O-R-E-N. Anyway, continuing …

[01:27:45] This is a, uh, email I got from “Lex,” and they write: “Long time listener; first-time caller. I’m stopping by to ask what happened to Mean DJ Voice? We haven’t heard from him in a while. He hasn’t put on a single Skid Row song or insulted you in ages. Is he ok? Is he doing voice-overs for Frosted Pop Tarts? The Quad Cities remain unrocked without him.” I have been concerned about him, and I have a feeling that HE and 40s Therapist, uh, are up to something. And whatever it is, I know that it will be uninformed (chuckles). It will definitely be, uh, uh, unenlightened … and not have any nuance to it. That I do know. But it could be that we’re coming up on Rocktober, and I know he likes to organize all the songs, uh, by Boston that he’s gonna play … in order. And then he likes to photograph himself in front of the list. (Chuckles) I’m enjoying some frost … er, unfrosted Pop Tarts that, uh, a very kind listener sent to me. *Blueberry!* Can’t get ‘em on the West Coast. And I still—despite all the tweets and everything people say, trying to explain to me why frosted Pop Tarts are good … you’re wrong. You’re wrong. Unfrosted Pop Tarts are PERFECT! They don’t need anything. Certainly not a layer of cementy sugar. I don’t wanna get off on … (chuckles) on a rant here.

[01:29:31] Here’s a happy moment filled out by “Depresso Represso.” And she writes: “I recently went in to my doctor’s office, trying to figure out my antidepressants—a struggle we all know too well. I had been on four different meds and hadn’t found the help I needed from them. Most recently, I was on Celexa and it made lose about 20 pounds from nausea and didn’t work that well for my depression anyway. I was lost and quit taking them and was ready to just let depression consume me until I couldn’t take it anymore and ended it. Then, my doctor—in what was like a choir from heaven—told me that there was a newish liver-function test that could help me find the medicine that could work best for me. It tests your specific biomarkers and reconciles that with liver enzymes that different medicines are processed with. It then gives the doctor a list of meds that, one, could work best; two, probably avoid; and three, definitely avoid. All it took was a cheek swab and I now know that Celexa is not good for my body, but Wellbutrin could be. This test gave me hope for the first time in years. This feels like my doctor’s actually practicing medicine, not performing a trail-and-error ruse of care. I was actually excited to try to feel better. I’m so glad I finally have a doctor that spends time on my care and wants to actually help me. In just about a week and a half of taking the new medicine, I’ve noticed a huge difference. I’m still depressed and fighting my shit. But being on a new medicine has also inspired me to finally find a new therapist in my new city. And to start journaling, which is something I’ve struggled to do my whole like. For years, making a phone call would give me crippling anxiety. But now, I’m down to slightly more manageable anxiety, with the hope to get better. Finally I, finally …” I think there’s a typo here. “I finally have this hope that I haven’t had in 16 years. I’m now ready to finally TRY to feel better and not just go through the motions. This one little test helped me so much, and I’m so grateful to have this new-found hope.” Love it. Love it! Man, so, so many times it seems like just … if we just keep seeking—be it help or seeking meaning or purpose, or connection in our lives—the universe meets us halfway, in ways that we could never have predicted.

[01:32:11] This is an awfulsome moment (laughs) filled out by a woman—I believe we’ve read one of hers before—called “Amazon Can Suck My Asshole, Paul.” I’m not crazy about my name being right next to the word asshole, but I’m just gonna digest that for a moment. At least there’s a comma between asshole and Paul. “After attempting to commit suicide by swallowing an entire bottle of my mother’s pain medication, I was sitting in the hospital and my mom and sister came to visit me. We were all in tears, and the moment could not have been any more painful for all of us, Then, without even trying to be ironic or funny, my sister says in between her dry-heaving cries, “This is a tough pill to swallow.” We all looked at each other and burst into hysterical laughter.” Those moments are the best; they really are. That, that to me is like a mini version of life, that roller coaster of just low lows and then these great highs. And, um … yeah. It’s probably why I smoke meth every day. I should NOT have said that out loud. Actually, meth and heroin are two of the drugs that I never did try. And ecstasy. (Chuckles) Actually, I guess there’s a lot of drugs I haven’t tried.

[01:33:35] This is a body shame survey filled out by, um, a young woman who calls herself “Milky Way,” and, um, she is, uh, 17 years old. And, uh—what do you like or dislike about your body and why? “I hate how my gut juts out awkwardly. I hate my, uh, anxiety and depression. I hate that I have back pain, due to the fact that when I was 12, I pulled a muscle and, in turn, moved my back out of place. I was out of place, it was out of place for two years. After years of suffering, physical therapy, and giant pain meds—like almost horse pills—we were finally able to get me to the chiropractor. He is a saint. He lets me come in free because he knows how much I need to go in, and he also knows that my mom just can’t provide, as she is the only one working because my dad can no longer work.” Excuse me (yawns). “I hate that I have to wear a wrist brace almost all the time to end the pain. I hate that my feet swell every time I walk or stand too long, and that my ankle hurts so bad. I hate that I overheat so fast that I have to drink one Gatorade a day just so I don’t faint. I hate the fact that when I go to get my blood tested, they welcome me back, calling me by name without even looking to see who I am. I hate having NF1; it used to be called Von Recklinghausen Disorder. It’s a nerve disorder that can cause tumors. It also causes café au lait spots that could, that could … that could, if you’re unlucky turn into tumors. I hate how sometimes my nerves hurt and cause me to have a sharp pain that can last for hours. I love my spots. They remind me that I’m only human. I love my hair. I love the way it feels and the way it looks. I love my eyes; they are hazel and often are brought out when I wear green. I’ve been playing music, piano, for seven years, and I love my fingers. I love the way they are able to make music; they’re probably one of the strongest things on my body.” And I love that you finished with some loves about your body. Most of the people that fill out the body shame survey, um … that’s just all dislikes and there’s, and there’s no likes. And, um …

[01:36:07] And then I wanted to, uh, end the show with some loves I have just about bodies in, uh, in general. (Laughs) We’re gonna come swinging right out of the gate: I love when you’re by yourself and you fart extra loud just because you’re by yourself and it’s such a ridiculous noise or it’s so long that you make yourself laugh. And, as you’re laughing, you realized that your own body is making you laugh like it’s another person. I love the moment when a really, really hot bath stops being uncomfortably hot and you let go and relax … and sometimes feel like peeing a little bit. I like when you get a haircut, and suddenly you realize that you’re not as ugly as you thought you were. I love the way my body feels drinking caffeine after hard exercise and hot shower and stretching. It’s like a feeling of … being excited, but also, like a noodle and relaxed at the same time. I love when I’m with a woman and I just lightly smell soap or just a hint of perfume, especially on her neck. I dunno, it’s almost like, like there’s a … if their way a doorway to physical intimacy, that, to me, is like the threshold of, like, the beginning of knowing somebody physically, intimately. And it’s like (chuckles) somebody walking out of their front door as you come into their house for the first time, and they’re just … it’s a casserole of, of your favorite food. It’s just so, I dunno, inviting and—I just love it. I hope this one’s not creepy, but I love the intimacy of oral sex, uh, because to me it’s more intimate than fucking. Because it’s … you’re almost like, at the center of that person physically and the area that we probably all have the most anxiety or hang ups about. And that person is letting you in and trusting you with that. It’s kind of the same, it’s kind of like the physical version of somebody sharing a secret with you, you know, that trust. It just feels, uh … special. It’s like, um … yeah, like a physical representation of someone saying you are special. (Laughs) I love taking a shit that’s so big that your depression lifts. (Chuckles) Maybe it’s just me, but sometimes I get backed up when I’m depressed and, um … I dunno man. I bet there’s people right now that are laughing and shaking their head. And then my last one is: I love when you’re sick in bed, and someone brings you soup. And not only are you reminded that someone loves you, but the soup kind of helps clear out your congestion. And then, you get to go back to sleep with a full belly, super relaxed and feeling like you’re loved.

[01:39:49] I hope you enjoyed this, uh, this episode. Thank you, guys, for the surveys and all that stuff. And, uh, if you feel so inclined to help the show in any way—and we do need help—just go to the show notes for, uh, our episodes and it tells you all different kinds of ways financial and non-financial that you can, um, help the podcast and help keep it going. And, if you’re out there and you’re feeling stuck or alone, just remember you’re not alone, and, um, help is out there. Sometimes it just starts with us opening up to someone we feel safe with. And, um, going from there. So, uh, thanks for listening.

Outro