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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 423 with my guest, Joe Bill. In order to support our show, we need the help of advertisers. And in order to find great advertisers, we need to learn a little bit more about you guys. So, if you wouldn’t mind, go to podsurvey.com/mentalpod and take a quick, anonymous survey, and it helps us get to know you better. That way, we can pair advertisers with the show. Once you’ve completed the survey, you can choose to enter, uh, a chance to will a 100-dollar Amazon gift card. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's podsurvey.com/mentalpod. That's p-o-d-s-u-r-v-e-y .com/mentalpod, m-e-n-t-a-l-p-o-d. Thank you so much. That, uh, that helps, because, uh, in addition to you guys being monthly donors, which we could always use more of, um, this, this show also depends on advertising. And, um, if there's not that support, I can't keep doing the show. And I love doing the show. And I feel like it's my life's passion, and who am I?

[00:01:13] My name is Paul Gilmartin. And this here show is the Mental Illness Happy Hour. See how we segued? I'm a professional. This here podcast is a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. It's not a doctor's office. I'm not a therapist. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site for this show is, uh, mentalpod.com. And mentalpod is the social media handle for me/the show. Maybe I should change my name legally to "Me/The Show," And I just wear a t-shirt around that on the front it says, "Me," and on the back it says, "The Show." And just a have a really uppity air and look at people through a monocle. Gotta look into that.

[00:02:19] I wanna read a couple of surveys before we get to the interview with Joe. It's so good to reconnect with, uh, with Joe. And, uh, I guess the last episode I did, I was up in the mountains, uh, hoping for the weather to clear so I could, uh, uh, go skiing. And, it was (laughs) two, two, really two and a half days of not being able to EVEN go outside. It was hurricane winds and snow mixed with rain. Which, if any of you guys ski or snowboard, you know that's (laughs), that's like the worst news you can get. But the really cool part—and this kind of ties into the show—the really cool part was my friend, Colin, he's a support group buddy, um, he drove up and, uh, we hung out. He brought, uh, a guitar. And we just had fun. And on the very last day that we were there, uh, the weather broke enough that we could go out snowboarding. And we had so much, so much fun. It was, it was all worth it. The three days of (laughs) being inside. And we had fun at night. We went bowling and we played video games and we were just jackasses, you know. We got chains for, uh, for his truck, and we (laughs), we're doing, at like one in the morning we're doing doughnuts in an empty parking lot. And, little did we know, he actually broke one of the chains on (laughs) his tires. So then we're driving around with one tire chain. But we just made fun of everything and didn’t take it too seriously. And, you know, the nice part of being in recovery is … we tend to look for the positive parts of things and not focus on the negative. And we both just appreciated that, that one day that we had. Oh, and the other cool thing was, the gondola—which you have to take down from where we were staying, you couldn’t, um, ski down, I dunno how to explain it, but you had to take your, your snowboard off and then get on the gondola and take that down to where we were staying. And on this last day—It was still blowing pretty hard. The winds were probably blowing, you know, maybe 40 miles an hour. The gondola froze. And so, they said, "Okay. We're gonna just have to bus people down the mountain." And … the line was like a 100-people long to get on this bus, which was coming like once every 20 minutes. And I was like, we were just like, it's gonna be hours of just sitting, just standing out in this blistering wind. And some guy said to us, "You know, you can ski down the streets to get home, if you want. It's a little dicey, but you can probably do it." And that's exactly (laughs) what we did, and it was so, it was so, it was a little dangerous, but it was, when we finally got to the place that we were staying, um, we just laughed. We just laughed and, and high-fived and, it was just … In fact, he's a guy that I wanna have on the, on the show. I think you guys would really like him. Anyway, it awesome, it was really awesome. And the other cool part, um, is that somehow I got on an earlier schedule that I am now adhering to, at least for now. And it's given me the energy to start going back to the gym. And, I'm just feeling really good. And, it all started with me … sitting on my computer the other night, looking at all this weather coming into the mountains and saying, "God, I would love to get up there and ski some fresh snow or snowboard." And then saying, "Why the fuck not?!" Just go up for like two days and have fun. It doesn’t matter if nobody can come up with you. Just go do it. you need to get back into nature." Cuz I could feel myself just kind of getting into a funk. And part of the work that I've done and being in support groups is to learn to be spontaneous or at least more spontaneous and to practice self-care. Do nice things for yourself. And so, I did. Just on a moment's notice. And within 24 hours, I was up in (laughs) hurricane-force winds … nut enjoying myself, because I felt like it was an act of self-care and self-love, and it was spontaneous. And, I don’t think it's any coincidence that I'm reaping the benefits now of being on an earlier schedule, getting to spend more time with my girlfriend, Christina, when she stays over on the weekend, cuz she's on a super-early schedule. And I dunno, just the universe has a way of helping us when we do nice things for ourselves and for other people.

[00:07:55] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Porcelain Queen." And she writes, "My little sister's wedding was last summer and held in a campground over five days. We're in Canada, and the wedding was on a lake in British Columbia. It was lovely and rustic and all the family was there, and mostly everyone was getting along. I was one of four sisters in the wedding party, and because we were in a campground we were grouped together, along with the bride and delegated these out-cabins with only one tiny washroom each. All was well until like an hour before the ceremony—I was busy helping with the decorations—when my littlest sister came up to me and loudly whispered, "Emergency! The bride has to pee, and the toilet is flowing back into the cabin and you are our only resort!" She's not even in her dress yet, and there is shit everywhere. I immediately dropped what I was doing and ran to the cabin, where, quite literally, the toilet was gushing back up into the cabin. I sprang into action, turned off the water, opened the floor drain, grabbed the plunger, opened the lower pipes and figured out the line to the septic tank must be having some serious issues. I did some troubleshooting and I fixed the blockage. Fixed the toilet, cleaned out the drains and floor like a pro, and was ready for the wedding with minutes to spare. I realized that at least one good thing came out of having a severe case of bulimia nervosa for 23 years: I can fix all toilets. In my barfing days, I ran into many, very scary toilets issues along the way. And believe me, nothing is more motivating to getting a toilet fixed than the prospect of someone walking in and seeing the sheer amount of food you just hurled up. You learn to fix that shit fast. PS: I've been doing well in recovery for three years." Thank you for that. I just love the surveys that you guys fill out. In fact, if you guys haven’t filled out the surveys, uh, go to the web site, mentalpod.com, and there's about a dozen different surveys that you can, uh, you can fill out. And it's completely anonymous. We don’t even get your IP address. So, feel free to share anything and everything.

[00:10:22] This is a happy moment filled out by a trans man who calls himself "Scandinavian Jawbreaker." And he writes, "I was at my psychologist the other day, bawling my eyes out about how I wish I was just born a boy. To which, he responded, 'But you were born a boy. Some boys are trans, and that's just a concept, a prefix. Doesn’t change the fact that you were born as one.' Never have I felt so fucking seen." Love it. Love it.

[00:10:57] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Bobo." And he writes, "Growing up in a Christian family, sex was a very taboo subject. I had my first accidental encounter with pornography when, while home alone around the age of 13, a men's interest catalog popped up in our mail. Leafing through it, I came across an advertisement for some erotic photography books, and instantly my eyes locked on a tiny photograph of a single breast. The photo itself was tiny, but when I say locked, I mean I'm sure my face was maybe a quarter-inch from the page. I was so instantly overwhelmed with shame by my discovery, that I dropped the catalog and rushed to call, yes, my dad on the phone. He didn’t pick up, so in my wild haste to be rid of my guilt, I called my best friend's dad who lived next door. I can't imagine the things that must have gone through this man's head, as he heard me out and tried to calm me down. What a saint. He probably thought, "Wait 'til this poor, fucking kid figures out the internet. He might now make it." (Laughs) Thank you for that.

[00:12:12] I wanna tell you guys about a new podcast called Crimes of Passion. Love is patient; love is kind. But sometimes, love can be deadly. Many couples may look happy, but we don’t always know what happens behind closed doors. Every week, the Parcast Network's new podcast, Crimes of Passion looks into what happens when true love meets true crime. Crimes of Passion analyzes the relationship dynamics and psychology that lead to betrayal, crimes, and even murder. New episode, new episodes of Crimes of Passion come out every Wednesday, You can listen to the first episode on Wilma Hoyt right now. And look for upcoming episodes on Amy Fisher and Joey Buttafuoco, Lorena Bobbitt, and Jodi Arias. Search for and subscribe to Crimes of Passion wherever you listen to podcasts. (Laughs) What is the matter with me?! Sometimes I tense up when I'm doing the ads cuz I don't want to like—I don’t mind if I'm fuckin gup on my own part of the podcast. But for some reason, I tighten up a little bit when I'm, when I'm doing the ads cuz I wanna please. (Laughs). All right, search for and subscribe to Crimes of Passion wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, search for Crimes of Passion or visit parcast.com/passion to listen now.

[00:13:42] Wanna also give a shout-out to our sponsor, BetterHelp, a big supporter of the show. If you guys have never tried online counseling, I really recommend it. I love it. I do it every week with my counselor, Donna. And, uh, she's helping, she actually, um, has got me focusing on spontane-, (laughs) spontaneity, uh, these days, which helped me, uh, make the aforementioned trip. And she always shares great articles with me. And she just really, really cares about her job. So, uh, if you wanna check it out, go to betterhelp.com/mental. Make sure you include the "/mental" so they know you came from the podcast. Fill out a questionnaire and they'll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor. And you can experience a free week to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:14:32] And then finally, uh … this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Fossilized." And she writes, "A couple of months ago, my mom, who I have often had a fraught relationship with, fell and fractured her spine. No permanent damage, but healing is a long, painful process. I've been helping her, but something else started happening. We started smoking weed together. We both knew the other smoked, but never talked about it and certainly would never do it together, but immediately after she wanted the help with pain relief and offered to share, and I appreciated taking the edge off my anxiety. So now, at least once a week I come over to clean her house, she gives me weed and we smoke together. And the weirdest thing is it's done wonders for our relationship. Earlier, my mom opened up to be about some of the horrific things her mother did to her, which is something that has always been obvious, since my mom has always had severe PTSD, but never knew the details of. It was weirdly comforting, hearing stories about the trauma and dysfunction that's been passed down through our family. It feels good to understand my mother a little better and makes me feel closer to understanding my own trauma. And it only happened because my mom is dealing me drugs in exchange for vacuuming her house."

Intro

[00:17:01] Paul: I'm here with my longtime buddy, Joe Bill. We went—

Joe: So long.

Paul:—college together—

Joe: And we did.

Paul: We both did theater. You were doing improve back—

Joe: I was doing improve at The Rathskeller.

Paul: At The Rathskeller!

Joe: Bloomington, Indiana.

Paul: And I remember going to see your shows. And I so badly wanted to be in your guys' improve group. And I auditioned—

Joe: Did you?

Paul: —and, and I did not get in. Yeah.

Joe: Really?!

Paul: Yeah. I was crushed. And, and, I think Mick, uh, Napier, the founder of the Annoyance Theater in Chicago, uh, I remember you telling me Mick said, "Yeah, he was a little stiff." (Both laugh)

Joe: Really?

Paul: Looking back, I can see that was pro-, cuz it was, I placed so much importance on it because that was like the first months of me going from being pre-med, wanna be a doctor, to I really want to do something creative with my life. So it was like, I need some validation that I'm decent at this—

Joe: I wonder, and we figured out that you were a year behind me at IU?

Paul: Yes.

Joe: Or, but, but I took the year off, I took the year off to do Up With People, so we ended up graduating at the same time.

Paul: That's right.

Joe: That's maybe another podcast. (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) That’s another podcast. That gonna be the Up With People episode.

Joe: So, so would that have been for like the '84, '85 season, or the group—

Paul: Yeah, I think so.

Joe: Yeah, that's—Cuz I know we lost a couple. We reorganized. But, um, but, yeah, that’s, I, I don’t, I thought I remembered you being there. But did we hang out that much in college, or—

Paul: We did towards the end. We had mutual friends, uh, Faith Soloway—love—

Joe: Oh, yeah!

Paul: —love Faith.

Joe: My college sweetheart. She's the best.

Paul: Leanne Mortenson (sp?)—

Joe: Yeah!

Paul: —Eric Waddell—

Joe: Yeah!

Paul: —I'm sure I'm, I'm leaving out uh, uh, Mick Napier—although you were much better friends with Mick than, than, than I was.

Joe: Yeah. Did you know Mark Sutton?

Paul: I remember him from the, from the group. Yeah, he was funny as well—

Joe: My improve partner. And, um, yeah. So, yeah, so that makes sense.

Paul: So Joe makes his living, uh, going around the world teaching, uh, people how to, how to improvise and, um … But you used to do stand-up comedy. And that’s how we really got to be friends, was we would go on the road sometimes together. And here's the moment that knew Joe was a great friend. I had just bought my first car, and it was, uh, a Jeep, a Jeep Cherokee. And, you walked into the parking lot. And you looked at my car, and you went, "You little Napoleon motherfucker!" (Both laugh)

Joe: Yeah.

Paul: And I was like, "This guy's a friend. This guy's a friend." Yeah.

Joe: Yeah, it's, I … It's so funny, because I've known you for so long. And, you know, we've gone years at, at a time at times without seeing each other. But like I've always just loved you as a friend, as a buddy. It's like the times where we've had together, man have we packed in some great and some awful together!

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, Joe was there for some of my drinking, uh, escapades. But …

Joe: Me, too. I was, yeah, we were fighting different, losing battles, but winning in the self-destruction game.

Paul: That’s right. (Laughs) And I think one of the things I've always liked about you is your, um, transparency about your own foibles and fears. And that allowed me to feel comfortable enough to share mine with you. And plus, we have the whole Irish-Catholic—

Joe: Oh, boy!

Paul: —upbringing, lots of dysfunction in the family, alcoholism, uh—

Joe: Drug abuse—

Paul: —sexual trauma—

Joe: — sexual trauma. It's, it's, um, I think, you know, it's—

Paul: Also knows as Catholic grade school.

Joe: Right, exactly. For a while, until I, I tested out of it. but it's—You know, there's um, I was just telling somebody recently, when I was a kid—So my father played football for Notre Dame. My mother was the principal at CCD at Sunday School. And so, that's about as Catholic as it gets.

Paul: Yes, that's in deep.

Joe: And Dad was a philosophy and English double major. So if you were, you know, spouting a line of bullshit or ending, literally ending a sentence in a preposition, you could get popped in the head.

Paul: Really!

Joe: A hundred percent. "Where's my book at?" (Slapping sound) Pop!

Paul: The, the, the thing I remember you sharing with me was that your dad used to pay you (laughs) to wrestle and win against his brother's kid.

Joe: That's right, against my cousin, Bobby. And so, that was actually, I, I think I ran that through my stand-up act once. But, true story. So, and I was more passive, but, and my, my cousin, Bobby, who's a year younger, went on to play college football. But I was bigger, and so, the story was, we would, our, our fathers would pay us to pin our cousins. And, I found out, I, I grew up in Indiana, and Bobby grew up in New York, and his dad has more money. So, his father was willing to pay him more money to pin me, than mine—My dad was gonna give me five bucks; Uncle Bob was gonna give Bobby 20 bucks. And so, we agreed that Cousin Bobby would pin me, and we would split the 20 and we would each get 10.

Paul: That is so fantastic.

Joe: It's (laughs), I had totally forgotten that story. But, yeah, it's true. And the, and the Catholic thing, I think, you know, when you say I feel like we have been, always been able to be kind of honest with each other. And I remember growing up Catholic, thinking there's something not right here. There's something with these people at this church doing this thing, there's something kind of not right here. And I learned the work hypocrisy in seventh grade, and I cried, because I thought that they'd been keeping this word from me. I was slightly, you know, like in a 70s sci-fi movie sometimes in my head. But I just felt like, I don’t belong here. I don’t belong in this set of rituals. I don’t belong in whatever this Catholic thing is. And then I learned it's like hypocrisy. It's like, oh, these people are all one way after church, but then during the week, there's this giant act that's going on.

Paul: Yeah. That … was my experience, not with everybody. There were certainly people that walked the walk, and I had … nuns for teachers who were really beautiful, gentle, uh, souls. But, you would … The Parish where I was raised, you would hear people using the n-word within hours of church letting out. And, and there was also an anger underneath it, uh, which I find with a lot of cultures that are tradition-based that kind of tell you family no matter what. And I think … You think there's something there about suppressing the things that you want to say to people close to you that it comes out in other sick ways?

Joe: I think so. I mean, it's … There's, we were certainly raised with the threat of violence, should things go wrong.

Paul: Yes. That was not my case, but—

Joe: Yeah, yeah, my case. And, and, uh, I think there was anger, but there was like this robotic sense of duty. And it was also very, I think what, you know, what we're calling now like, it was a toxic masculine type of Catholicism, where men were supposed to be a certain way, and where, you know, you win, everything is about winning. And it's, um, uh … Like I remember, I remember just resenting so much that, uh, because I took the number one ass-kicking of everybody. My dad beat the shit out of me one time in front of the whole family, and then not as extensively again after that. But here's this, you know, I'm a fan of your show and you hear people say, "Well, it was only that one time, and he was just having a bad day." And my therapist says, "Can you imagine you doing that to your daughter?" And then I cry and go, "No," and have to say, "Many things can be true at the same time, and my dad beat the shit out of me when I got suspended from the football team for laughing at the football coach." And the way that I dealt with that was to participate in my own abuse. I've heard a couple of your people talk about that, where I'm like, "Okay, I'm about to get the shit beat out of me. So, let's pretend like this professional wrestling, and I'm gonna take the punches and I'm gonna take the hits. And if he lifts me up by my hair," he choked me, lift me up by my hair, he threw me down the stairs, "Like I'm gonna add a little something extra to everything that he does." Cuz I knew that my siblings were watching. And, but I know that it wasn’t for their benefit. It, I think in my mind, it's like let's help him put on a good show, which kind of was like my fuck you to him. But, I think for me, it was just like, because it didn’t hurt if I took part in it.

Paul: I see.

Joe: And, like, like, I don’t—I was part of my own pain. I wasn’t gonna let him be.

Paul: I see. So if he threw you down the stairs, you would, you would make sure that you added momentum to you going down the stairs.

Joe: Right. Like, into the door. Like he, he threw me down the stairs. So like as soon as he let go, like I even jumped farther. So I, it's like I was say having micro fuck-yous within getting the ass beating. Like, uh, he, and when I got to the bottom of the stairs, he like picked me up by my hair, so I lifted my feet off the ground and flailed my (chuckles) arms to like, you know, let's sell the bit. And it's, um, and like looking back on it, it was just, it was just survival. It was just me trying to control my own abuse. And, um, you know, I think it's also tied to, uh, the first story, which I kinda mentioned to you earlier. When I was five, my mom had a nervous breakdown in front of me. And I experienced it as alternating, uh, moments of horrific sobbing, and then—

Paul: Her sobbing.

Joe: Her sobbing and like, and almost like speaking in tongues or something, but not in a Pentecostal way. (Laughs) But it was really striking. And then, then like the pendulum would swing. And, and then she's just manic, and it's just laugher and it's cackling. And she was a, a witch at the children's museum haunted house, and it kinda was, had a little bit of that. And I felt what I describe as like my emergency room doctor veil going on. So completely detached, complete … you know, my body discovered dissociative coping from, I think, from this moment on. And, I just, in my head, said I'm not, that, this crying/sobbing shit, no, this is not acceptable. We're gonna go try to make this other on happen. And so—

Paul: Make what other one happen?

Joe: We're gonna, we're gonna swing her to manic laughter.

Paul: I see.

Joe: I choose laughter. It's not that, that isn't bad. It's just, I prefer that to this other one, because this other one runs the danger of me feeling something scared or feeling that was closer to the feeling where the manic laughter, the, the (laughs wildly), like cackle. It seemed more presentational and like not to affect me.

Paul: Gotcha.

Joe: And so, um, you know, that's the first story that I tell every shrink, because I think a lot of my coping mechanisms comes from dissociating from the moment. Or, if you're going to try to hurt me, I will hurt me more. And that's just like my fuck you, nobody's gonna make me feel anything. If you ripple that out for 30 or 40 or, you know, 50 years, that's gonna end up causing some problems. (Both laugh)

Paul: Three marriages in.

Joe: Three marriages in. Yeah, three marriages and, and a couple of good, you know, solid relationships. But, I mean, it's, it's all the same pattern. It's, you know, I, I told my, my first shrink, I said, "I, I know my problem. I have a, a, savior complex." And he said, "No, you don’t have a savior complex, cuz you have a failed savior complex. You get with women who are not your mother, so you can fail to save them the same way you failed to save your mom." And, uh, that's when I knew I was gonna be in therapy for a while. (Both laugh) But I just kept repeating it—(coughs) excuse me—um, I just kept repeating that pattern. And I think it's, um … On the one hand, I think I'm a good improve teacher because I can see the good in people, and I can see how people think, and I can see how people are present in moments. It's, it's not quite, quite a mind reading thing, but I can see when they're connected to themselves in a primary thought and invention, or I can see when they're connected to somebody else.

Paul: Yeah. I, I think I've always sensed that, uh, empathy in you. I think a, a lot of people can go through difficult things, and … then use cynicism as a default to cope with life. But it makes it really hard to form relationships because you're not willing to be vulnerable. And I've always been struck by that in you. And, which to me, is really a form of, of kind of social bravery, putting yourself out there … even though you feel like you're a piece of shit and you're filled with shame, that you're still willing to open up to somebody.

Joe: Yeah. And it's this, I mean, I, I just didn’t … About a year ago, um, I, I started jumping back into you again, like a year and a half ago or something. All of a sudden I was dealing with this shame thing. Like, "What the fuck is this shame thing that Paul's talking about?" And for, at first glance, shame in my family, the shame was being weak. The shame was feeling, like feeling something, being, there was shame in being hurt, there was shame in being a victim. There was shame in, there was a shame in bad things happening to you and not rubbing dirt on it and walking out of it. But, that, but the—

Paul: What do you mean rubbing dirt on it and walking out of it?

Joe: "That didn’t hurt!"

Paul: Oh, okay.

Joe: "That doesn’t hurt." My brother, my brother, Brian, is, is a therapist and he went through a lot of shit. And he said, um, one of the things he said about our family is we were raised, um, with three don'ts: Don’t think, don’t talk, don’t feel. And—

Paul: How could that backfire?

Joe: No, that sounds like a good plan, especially if you want peace and quiet, goddamn it! (Both laugh) And I think the, um … Yeah, I don’t relate to the "don’t think" part, cuz all I did was just fucking think, And it was, as soon as I figured out the hypocrisy piece, that's when the wheels in my head starting turning. There was always a low-grade "I need to get the fuck outta here." Like, this is, I'm on the wrong planet, I'm in the wrong family. This is … Like, I love my mom and dad, but they're also a fucking, they're a clusterfuck mess, and this program is not for me." But, that meant that I had to seek my own independence, and I had no idea how to do that. And I have a bountiful DNA of fucking self-harm and addictive possibilities and, you know, shame and guilt. And it's, uh, I finally said, uh, I also (chuckles) said this to you. I was like, "I, I couldn’t figure out where the shame was." And I'm like, "Well, maybe a piece of shit like me doesn’t have shame." And then I (both laugh), I said that to me shrink, and she goes, "Excuse me?" "Oh, yeah. But I am a piece of shit. Is that shame?" "Um, Joe. Yeah." "But I'm not entirely a piece of shit. Just like, you know, psychologically inside, I know—Oh, that's right."

Paul: Yeah, because I can't succeed at being a piece of shit. I even fail to be a piece of shit.

Joe: Yeah. And it's, and it's, the piece of shit, like for me, I needed the affection I couldn’t get from my mom. You know, my, my mom just, every once in a while, she … My mom wanted me to pursue being an actor. But to get like physical affection from her, she had her own problems. She, I mean, my mother had a, suffered HORRIBLE abuse when she was growing up. And she was, uh, repeatedly raped over time by a family member, I've come to believe. And she had many nervous breakdowns, she was, uh, institutionalized a couple times. I forget what you call electroshock these days, but—

Paul: ECT, electroconvulsive therapy—

Joe: Yeah. So she had like, um, ECT and we kinda, you know, it was, I was told, it was to help her erase bad memories, but we were never told what the bad memories were, to the point where she's institutionalized and, you know, there's doors with bars in the glass. And then we're just told, "Make sure you like her art."

Paul: Wow!

Joe: And it's like clay things she would mold or painting she would, would paint, And I think, you know, you used to do a bit in stand-up about kids' art that you put on the refrigerator. (Both laugh) And it's, that always resonated, I always laughed at that because I always included my mom with that. And it's, uh, the bit was something about, "What the fuck are you doing? A person's not as tall as a house!" (Both laugh) Right, right? And (coughs), and I'm (coughs)—sorry. So I'm, seventh grade maybe? Sixth grade or seventh grade, so JUST becoming a, almost … on the verge of becoming a teenage asshole. And it's like, I'm like, "But her art sucks. Like this art … what? 'Mom, I really love your … Oh, what a cool painting.'"

Paul: "I love your clay noose."

Joe: Your—(laughs) clay noose. If only! It was like, "Oh those are … a little girl with a sad dog on her lap, and everybo-, and they both have sad faces. Like, aren’t you here to not be sad? Like why don’t you just make something happy," like is my dad's voice playing in my head. And I couldn't, I could never feel, my mother was … implicitly, I think, presented as damaged. She was the, it was a shame that my mother was so damaged. It was a shame that my mother was on all these meds.

Paul: Who's, who's opinion was that?

Joe: I feel like, uh, I feel like on the one hand, my father was very supportive. And he was a great husband and that he stayed with her through all of her crazy is remarkable.

Paul: He was dysfunctionally loyal.

Joe: I think that's right, and bound by the Catholic, you know, fucking … he just kept rubbing dirt on it. You know, it's like, yeah, everything sucks, yeah. Fucking rub dirt on, get up and go win, Let's win. Let's fucking win today. And it's a, it's just this insane compulsion. And it’s, um, like … like winning is right—

Paul: Right!

Joe: —and losing is wrong—

Paul: And it doesn’t matter how you go about winning, as long as you win.

Joe: As long as you win—

Paul: Which is really, to me, one of the cancers of the American dream—

Joe: A hundred percent. And it's, and my father … my, my mother's like Indiana kind of, uh, part, some money, some trailer park, kinda made good but just a horrific bundle of terrible secrets. And my father was New York, type A, everybody played college football, all the generations back of the family were, my, my great-grandfather was commissioner of docks in New York City during prohibition. And it's like … And, so you don’t know what stories are real or what stories aren’t real. But it's like, "Oh, there's all of these stories so we don’t know what's real and what's not real." And my dad used to say, "Never write anything down. Never keep a record of anything. Never tell, watch who you tell anything to." This real weird, Mafioso shit. But, like, like I couldn’t see that growing up. All I could see was, uh, I'm, I'm less than all of my other brothers, who are great football players, cuz I could never see the point of football.

Paul: And where did, were you in line, uh—

Joe: I’m oldest.

Paul: Oh, okay.

Joe: I'm the oldest of five.

Paul: Talk about the secrets that, that came out.

Joe: So, the night before my father died, uh, my brother, Brian, who I've talked to and have clearance to talk about this, um, he was talking to some other siblings about, uh, sexual abuse that my mother, uh, put him through. And my mother, you know … It was '96, I think, my brother said he started therapy. And he was, uh, and we don’t talk about like, we don’t talk about weakness in our family. My brother, Brian, didn’t get diagnosed with dyslexia until he was in the Army because dyslexia is a weakness. (Laughs) He just wasn’t applying himself. So, he, I was not with them in Indianapolis. My father and I kind of made our peace a couple of years prior. And, uh, and Brian told the story of my mother sexually abusing him. And my siblings were less than receptive. I got texts from each of them. And the message from them was kind of just shut the fuck up; we don’t talk about this stuff. Don’t you talk about this stuff. And, uh, apparently my father knew about this. The, um, when my brother told him, uh, after he had done his own therapy and gotten into support group for people who, uh, also experienced similar situations—

Paul: Your father in the support group or Brian?

Joe: Brian, my brother, Brian. So he was in a support group, and he was having breakfast with my father after a marathon. Brian, in southern Indiana, uh, helps people, uh, recover and use like physical fitness and stuff. But he told my father that my mother did this. And Brian just, I, I asked him about this a couple weeks ago, and what he told me was, my father said, "Oh, she got to you, too." And then that just, like ugh! Like that, like I just felt so sad for him, and I felt like a failure as a big brother. I'm like, we've always kind of has our distance, and I felt like such guilt that I had never been investigative or been proactive about … You know, it's all, it's the fucking narcissistic me—

Paul: And the failed savior.

Joe: And the failed savior. Yeah, I can't save him, I can't—

Paul: Once again.

Joe: Once again. I'm fucking so good at failing. I'm really great at helping nobody. Which is—

Paul: Why wasn’t I a good parent as a child?

Joe: Exactly! Why couldn’t I make everything better? Why was I born into a Martian family, when I'm an Earthling? Or … I dunno. But, I just felt, um, I think, my mother had varying degrees of inappropriate behavior, for sure, with some of my other siblings. And, um, and I'll leave then out of that cuz Brian's the one who I talked to. And for me, it was, being the oldest of five—and I mean having kids right in a row—I think, my guess is my mom had her nervous breakdown in front of me after she miscarried and between child number four and child number five. And then she got pregnant with, uh, my youngest brother. And, uh, but I think that, that makes sense.

Paul: Getting pregnant is a Catholic way of walking it off.

Joe: I think that right! (Both laugh) It's rubbing dirt on it. (Both laugh) Yeah. Walk it off. (Both laugh) That's so … that's just so beautiful and dark—

Paul: Fucked up.

Joe: —and real, yeah.

Paul: (Both laugh) Yeah, and Joe, Joe said to me in an email, uh, that, uh, "I guess I was too ugly for my mom to molest."

Joe: (Laughs)

Paul: That's the kind of, uh, humor that, that Joe and I bond over—

Joe: It's true.

Paul: Sometimes it just … it helps to be able to, to laugh about it, as long as that's not the only way that you're dealing with it.

Joe: That’s right. And it's, um, two of my friends, Annoyance friends, after I felt I found all this stuff out, I told them. And they both said versions of I'm so sorry you were too ugly for your mother to molest. And it’s just that thing where, that lets me feel the other stuff keeps me in dissociation, but it's the humor that lets me feel. It's like oh, god! That's horribly hilarious and terrible, and now I can feel my sibling's pain. And it's, my therapist is just trying to help me feel stuff, um, and, and feel pain and feel sadness and, uh … Before I came out here, uh, a couple weeks ago, I think the … I figured out, my fear was that if I feel anything, that I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown like my mom. And she said, "So, you're afraid." And I'm like, "I'm not afraid!" That's my dad, right. "I'm not afraid of anything! I'm not fucking 'fraid." But it's, but I said, it's like, yeah, I'm afraid if I feel too much sadness or if I feel—What I'm afraid of is what I witnessed when I was five.

Paul: Yeah. If I, if I let that door crack open—

Joe: I'm gonna lose my shit.

Paul: It's gonna be a tidal wave behind it.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, um … you know, and maybe I, maybe I'll fucking, maybe I'll have a nervous breakdown. Who, who knows? Or maybe I won't. I mean, it just feels extremely vulnerable. But it's also, like I'm diving into all this stuff because if I'm going to be a good father for my daughter—who's 13 now, uh, and my other daughter who's five and in another country—if I, like I have to get in touch and feel this shit. And, and if I'm ever gonna be with anybody in any meaningful way, this, what, by my not getting in touch with it, I'm giving somebody … 90 percent of a person on good days. So I can't, like I can't hide, there's just too much, too much I'm ashamed of, too much I'm afraid of, too much, uh, you know .. . You always say … I came in here saying the same thing. So many people say, it's like, "Well, you know, my shit's not bad enough. Like you’ve got some, like oh, man. I'm just here to whine and get attention and, 'Oh, you poor fucking baby.'" But that, the cussing, the "poor fucking baby," that's all my dad's words for that part of me that like hurts and needs love. And, um, and, and it's, you know, there's, there's reasons why I have duo partners in, in, in the improve world that women because when I go onstage, I can feel everything for an hour. And we do a play, and we play together, and I'm open to love and being loved. And it's, and like I have these improve wives who are these dear, dear people to me, and nonsexual relationships that are, it's the height of trust and it's the heights of, uh, the type of—

Paul: Improv is so intimate. It's so intimate.

Joe: It can be. You know, and no the "who's line" type (laughs), which is great. But like I improvise plays, and I improvise—

Paul: Character-based, story-based; not going for the quick, dirty joke.

Joe: It's almost like Gestalt therapy, but the f-, the concentration is we're telling a, we're telling a story, where-, whereby one or more characters will be changed. And it's just, and I have amazing improve partners who will get in, who will get into stuff with me. And it's just, I mean, that's my, it's my therapy. And audiences seem to like it. And it's, and we make plays. And I can't even get myself credit for that. You know, it's just like … I, I can't, I can't ever hear the words "You're a brilliant improviser." And that’s, and it's, and that's Reason Number 723 why there's shame in here, and I fucking gotta get it … I gotta get rid of it.

Paul: Talk about the, the thing that, uh, happened in college.

Joe: Oh. So, my senior year, I was sexually assaulted by a woman who was part of our circle. And this is something that I just recently just started, or decided to talk about. Because … uh, because of …everything that's been coming up in the last two years and the Me Too, and I am that classic guy, you know, I'm 6'5", 240—when this happened, I was maybe 200, but it doesn’t matter the weight. But a friend of mine and I were at a bachelor party, uh, at a bar where we both worked. And we were drinking pitchers of Long Island iced tea. And we got back home, and I had the—there was five of us that lived in the house, and it was kind of one of those college houses where people would come and go. And I had my box spring and mattress on the floor, as you would do in college. And I had a, a tape on. I put on Madonna's "Lucky Star" album—

Paul: (Laughs)

Joe: —just as a fun backdrop for this. And I had passed out. I think I had like taken my pants off, or I had like, like an ankle in one pant leg, or … it was the classic college: I'm fucking blackout drunk, I'm just kind of on my bed, laying on my bed. And some amount of time … later, uh, I wake up, I start to wake up and, uh, I'm, like I'm getting a blowjob, I think, or am I dreaming this? And I, and I like open my eyes, and this woman who I know who's a friend is giving me a blowjob, and I'm in a relationship. I'm in a relationship with Faith at this point. I hope it's, uh, she'll (chuckles)—now this got real vulnerable. But—

Paul: And so you had not given, uh the …

Joe: The other person consent at all.

Paul: Any kind of signals that, let's …

Joe: No. No, at all. And she was a very, um, sexual person. We had, like joked about it in like a college improve group type of way. But, no, there was like nothing had happened. And, uh, and I, and I, you know, I'm fucking shitfaced drunk. And I, and I, I'm not even sure this is real or if I'm dreaming. And then, she, she stands up, she takes her shirt off. Now she's naked, and she grabs my hard cock and just slides down on it. And in that moment, I was completely frozen and completely like, like in my head. I can't, uh, it was like, like a soundtrack of something running—

Paul: Madonna's "Lucky Star."

Joe: You know what? On a good (laughs), on a good day, maybe it was. But maybe it was "Borderline" without irony (laughs).

Paul: Yes, yes. Or Madonna's "Unlucky Star."

Joe: Or her unlucky star. But it was, I mean it was, it was that thing, it was that kind of out of body. I was absolutely frozen. I was, what the fuck is going on. I didn’t know if this was real. I, I didn’t even fully come to, I think. But, so my mind was, so I felt all these fragments of my mind forming different recordings that weren’t all together in this fucking bizarre, weird way. And, uh, then passed out. And, I woke up the next day, super hung over, not sure—Like, at first glance, I didn’t remember that it had happened. And then I, and then I started to, things started to come back. And I, and I thought, "Uh-oh!" And I like, like pub check, and it's like, oh, there's a big fucking mess down here. And I was, I just like, uh, I was like in a state of shock. And, um, and I felt bad … like I was, I was in a state of shock. Couldn’t believe that it happened. I, like I knew, I was thinking about my girlfriend. And I was, uh, then I was thinking, "Why would this person do this to me?" So I felt bad for her. And it's like, you know, and it's, it's kind of arranging, all the, the, the fingers to point back at myself, like why, why did I make this happen. And so … So, I, I got cleaned up and I went to my girlfriend's and we had sex to kind of wash it off and get it done with. And then, it was like that night where gonorrhea shows up. And I didn’t know what the fuck it was. I just knew there was something wrong. And I went to the clinic, and you know … they do all the fun swabs—

Paul: Oh, I thought you meant your dog, Gonorrhea, that had gotten out—

Joe: Oh, no. Gonorrhea was my mom's dog (both laugh) … from it's Gonorrhea by Chlamydia. (Both laugh) No, it was classic, uh, uh, leaky, green gooey dick, Paul, which is gonna be my next dog's name. (Laughs). And then it was like, then I went and I, I, I told Faith. And I like just fucking sobbed. And, um, uh, and it was all very out of body. And she was like, she just like held onto me, and said it's, it's fine. You know, we'll … she said it's just a shot. Let's just, we’ll just go get—And I was just, I was fucking mess. And, you know, even, even to this day, I mean, we've known each other a long time, and she's, you know, her own awesome success story. But, she's just like, she's like, "You fucking just cried like a baby. I never seen anything like it." And I didn’t really remember, I, I thought I kind of tearfully let her know. But apparently (laughs) it was far more dramatic than that.

Paul: Yeah, Faith is a sweet, sweet soul.

Joe: And, the composer of the music for the "Transparent" movie, which is gonna end the fucking "Transparent," uh …

Paul: Oh, really?

Joe: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. For those of you that don’t know, Jill Soloway is, uh, Faith's sister.

Joe: Yeah. And so, so that was, um, so that's just been—I held onto that. And it's, and it's all the guys don’t get raped, women can't rape guys. And I told my, my therapist like, "I can't say rape. I have to say sexually assaulted, because rape doesn’t sound true." And it's, you know, and I said, "I don't want to, I don't want to, uh, I don’t' want to appropriate rape aware from women. Like 'What the fuck are you thinking, dude?!'" It's like men don’t get raped by women. And all I wanted to do was just like get it over and forgive the person who did that to me, because she had her own fucking problems. And, and it was, like I was sure that it had to be my fault. You know, I fucking passed out drunk, you know. Maybe my dick was already hard. Maybe that's what a great drunk (chuckles) I was. But, the, you know, this is, I mean, part of the reason I'm here is just to say, no, guys get raped. And it's, uh, it feels very vulnerable and very nervous to say it. But, Paul, you're the guy.

Paul: It is a very poor selling t-shirt.

Joe: I don’t, I haven’t seen it advertised. (Laughs)

Paul: Yes. (Laughs)

Joe: Yes? (Laughs)

Paul: I, I appreciate you sharing that. And I did not know the extent that, uh, of that. I know had shared something in, uh, an email with me earlier. But, as I shared with Joe, pretty much every other email I receive is somebody sharing something about a sexual assault, or a suicide attempt. (Laughs) So sometimes, it can be hard to, uh, remember, uh, the things. And, um, I know I did not know the extent of, of that. And … a lot of people think that sexual assault has to be, you know, for, it, it to be valid, it has to be a, you know, a weighing of, well who should win a physical struggle. And it has nothing to do with that. And then, and even—

Joe: It's also that, that, that guy, that toxic male shit, where if like a, uh, well if a woman teacher has sex with a guy, hey that kid—

Paul: Is lucky.

Joe: Right. Like, like that's, that's, that was cool in the 90s, right, or something? But it's that thing where, like I have to fucking tell this story, believing that there's … you know, as much as anybody, these stories are fucking everywhere. And it's, um, and my brother, you know, my brother said that, uh, secrets make up the buffet that shame feeds upon every day.

Paul: That's such a great saying.

Joe: It's so, it's so fucking great. And so, I don’t, man, I don’t want to die not having said this happened to me. And it's informed my relationships with women, it's informed, um—

Paul: Can, can you share how?

Joe: I think it's, I think it is, uh, I need the attention of women that I didn't get from my mom. And I, I'm a person who have been compulsively drawn to bipolar women. And it seems the other side of that coin is, bipolar women who have the hyper-critical mother and an emotionally distant father have, see this big guy as the solution to all their daddy issues. And so, I think I've lived like five or six versions of that. And so, I think it's, uh, I don't, I … I'm just recently learning, I think, how to let a woman love me, because I'm starting to love me. And, as I've heard you say, like that, me saying that makes me wanna be sick. Like me having, just copping to like, yeah. I, I'm fifty-fucking-six years old, and I'm just learning how to love me. And I'm learning to walk past the, um, who in the world would love this piece of shit? And I'm in a, like, I'm, I'm in a (sighs), I'm in a quasi-relationship with somebody in another town who's like not the type of person I would normally get with. And, uh, she has other people, uh, on her plate, you know, so to speak, too. But, but it's, she's like healthy and she's like in our world. And, um, and it's like it give me hope, because I'm like, "Oh my god! This is, you're not my type at all! This isn't what I normally do."

Paul: Do you think it would be different if she live in the same city as you, that you would feel claustrophobic?

Joe: It's a good question. It's a good question.

Paul: Because in one of my support groups, uh, a lot of times, one of the things that people will take off the table, people who struggle with intimacy, they will take off the table as part of their becoming healthy, is no long-distance relationships. Not that those are bad, but for somebody who is trying to learn how to deal with the overwhelming fear of, of adult intimacy and commitment, uh … So I just wonder—

Joe: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a good question. And so, where we’re at is, you know, we’re in an open relationship. We care about each other. She has another sig-, significant other. And, it's, uh, the agreement is, uh, it's been, it’s been a, it's been somewhat sexual. And we like that. And the agreement is, it, at some point, it could just not become sexual, and that's cool. She's also, uh, she's … she's looking at like becoming a single mother and looking for, you know, that search for the right donor and stuff was outside of me and before me, and I fully support that; don't feel threatened by it. So, for me, this feels like, (clears throat), this isn't building towards a long-tern monogamous, unified relationship. This is a relationship that is a great friendship and it's very collegial in the realm of improve. She's a really great improviser … um, that also has physical, sexual, emotional intimacy in it that's very mutually supportive and safe. And neither … You know, if we were in the same, I mean—She's a fucking go-getter person. And I, you know, maybe this is a training ground. I, I, I've said, if I, if I am going to be with just one person, I know I will not be married again. I will not live with somebody again. (Laughs) And, uh, I will not live with cats ever again. (Both laugh) Let's see, I'm getting very picky. But I need to be with somebody who has, you know, at least three things in their life that are more important than me, that define them and that are their life's goals that are … And they need to be able to tell me what those are. I don’t wanna compete with them, but I need somebody who—I think, for me to trust, I need somebody who knows who they are.

Paul: Yeah. You need to know that you're not their only source of water.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And it's that whole, I'm happy to help, uh, I'm, I'm happy, I'm compulsively, I'm a pleaser. I'm a fucking enabler. If I help everybody else, I never have to help myself.

Paul: (Laughs) That's so good.

Joe: So gross.

Paul: That's so good.

Joe: It's the curse of the improve teacher. We can help everybody, but ourselves.

Paul: Yeah. Anything that you'd, you'd like to share?

Joe: I just, I just wanna say I love you, and I admire what you're doing so much. And I'm so happy that we're friends. And that like our friendship can show up in these odd ways, um, at these odd times. But it’s like you're, what you're work is and what you're doing has been instrumental in helping me all these years later come through it all. And like this feels like, (sighs), I feel like, I feel like taking a big sigh. And so, thank you for your friendship and for doing this. And, um—

Paul: I'm sorry; I wasn’t listening.

Joe: Oh! I was gonna ask you if you knew Jimmy Pardo's address. (Both laugh) Cuz I'm supposed to do a podcast today. (Both laugh)

Paul: Oh, dude, that means so much to me. It, it, it really does. It's so good to reconnect with you. And, um, thanks for sharing all that stuff and being my buddy. And, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna hang out, uh, Joe and I are gonna, uh, it's about 4:00 right now?

Joe: Yeah, man.

Paul: We're, we're just gonna go out and have some fun.

Joe: Yeah!

Paul: And by go out, I mean into the living room and—

Joe and Paul: Play "Golden Tea."

Joe: Yeah. Oh my god, I can't wait. (Laughs)

Paul: I love you, buddy.

Joe: Love you, buddy. Thanks.

End of Interview

[01:01:41] Ah, it was so nice to reconnect. We went out for, uh, Mexican food after we recorded this. And I (laughs), I, I'm sure you guys have done this, that thing where you're in the restaurant and you're really, really hungry, and they bring a basket of chips and you know that you shouldn’t be eating so many chips because then you're not gonna be hungry for your food. Well, I ate the basket of chips and I ate my entire plate of enchiladas and beans and rice and felt like I was pregnant with a baby. And (laughs), came home, laid down, cuz I was so uncomfortable. I was so full, which is a nice problem to have. And, woke up 13 hours later. (Laughs) Mr. Self-Control.

[01:02:34] Before we, uh, take it out with some surveys, want to give a shout-out to our sponsor, Handy. Handy is the easy and convenient way to book home cleanings, compare profiles and read real customer reviews, then book on your schedule right from the app or web site. All of Handy's services are backed by the Handy Happiness Guarantee, and all pros on Handy are background checked. Learn more at handy.com. Plus, with Handy's clear, up-frot, up-front pricing, what you see is what you pay. And, and they provided me with the, uh, with the service one day. And, uh, the, uh, cleaner's name was Tyler. She was great. She was efficient. She was friendly. She was thorough. And I was very happy with it. So, to get your first three-hour cleaning for $39 when you sign up for a plan, visit handy.com/mental and use promo code "mental" during checkout. That's handy.com/mental, and also use promo code "mental" during checkout to get your first three-hour cleaning for $39 dollars once you sign up for a plan. Recurring charge, terms, and conditions apply. And visit handy.com to learn more. [01:03:49]

[01:03:49] Wanna also give a shout-out to Madison Reed. I'm sure a lot of you who get your hair colored, uh, when you color your hair, you probably do one of two things: you go to a salon, and you spend the whole day and a whole lot of money. Now, there's a new way to color your hair with Madison Reed. It took a strong woman to shake up the hair coloring world, and Amy Errett did just that with Madison Reed, the company she named after her daughter. Madison Reed makes it easy to match your color, giving you the tools you need so you can color with confidence. The feedback that I've gotten from people who have used Madison Reed is great. They say that it's easy to use, the color quality is great, and there are no nasty odors. So get ammonia-free, multi-tonal hair color delivered to your door for less than $25 by visiting madisonreed., I'm sorry, madison-reed.com. And you guys, the listeners, get 10 percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with code "mental". That's code "mental" at madison-reed.com.

[01:04:58] Let’s get to some surveys. This is a happy moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Baked Alaska." And she writes, "I've been a regular listener since 2015. Every December, I get excited cuz I know there will be a new intro for the podcast. I absolutely love hearing snippets from episodes aired the previous year. It takes me about three weeks to 'memorize' the new intro, and it is just a small moment, but I enjoy it so much." That means a lot to me, because I do take a lot of pride in putting the, the intros together each, each year. And it's nice to know that, uh … somebody likes that. Any suggestions to make the podcast better? "We need a new dog butthole to discuss in Herbert's eternal absence." For those of you that don’t know, Herbert is my late, uh, dog. Died about two years ago. And, we had a running joke on the podcast about his butthole. There was an episode, I think, I dunno, maybe it was four years ago, where I, the episode was … about to clock in at three hours long, and I decided I wanted to stretch the last five minutes to make it three hours long. And I didn’t know what to talk about. And Herbert was standing right there with his butthole facing me, and I just started talking about Herbert's butthole. And, and it became this whole thing. So, uh, the only thing I can think of is, my girlfriend, uh, has a cat named Pablo. And when she and I are laying down, Pablo likes to get up and walk around our heads. And sometimes, I'm looking right into Pablo's butthole. And it is, it's not a pleasant sight. I love Pablo, but his butthole looks like it's knitting an afghan and, and something has gone wrong. Like something is knotted—I don't wanna go any further. It's just not—I love Pablo. But I'm on the fence about his butthole.

[01:06:55] This is, uh, from the babysitter's survey, and this is filled out by … a … woman who calls herself, uh, "Okay." And she writes, "This is a very hazy memory, but when I was around 10 and my brother was eight, we had a female babysitter. She was 16. I forget how this happened, but we were playing, and we ended up tying up our babysitter and she let us strip her naked. She was laughing and kind of going along with it. I've always felt very icky about this and assumed that it was all my brother and I's fault. Now that I'm an adult, I realize that she was way bigger and stronger than us, and she should have told us no and not let us do that. I never told anyone. I felt very ashamed about it. It was very inappropriate, and I don’t really know what damage it did, but I'm sure that my brother and I suffered at least a bit because of it. I didn’t think it was normal, but I thought that if it was really bad, she wouldn’t have let us do it. Remembering these things, the feelings that come up are sadness and shame. I don’t remember feeling sexually excited, but I was definitely curious." Do you feel any damage was done? "It was definitely innocent, but I wish that it'd never happened. It confuses me to this day, and I'm kind of upset that the babysitter let that happen. I'm also annoyed that my parents didn’t vet our babysitters properly, because I think that my brother and I were often left with shady characters." Thank you for sharing that. You know, it's such a, it's such a, um … a great example of the gray area of things. Because, you know, even though the babysitter was, was, uh, 16, um, she still an, in many ways, uh, a child, and it's not about demonizing that, that babysitter, but about, uh, you know, boundaries. Talking about boundaries and talking about appropriateness and the ways that it affects us. And, you know, so often we just bury those things and we don’t talk about them. And it … it affects us. Often the burying of the thing affects us more than the very thing itself.

[01:09:21] This is a happy moment filled out by a guy who calls (laughs) himself "I Make Terrible Decisions." I think I might be related to you. He writes, "I was flying home from a visit to a friend who lives on the other side of the country. I'm in the middle of a divorce, and I desperately needed to get away. My anxious brain had almost forgotten the shit storm that was waiting for me upon my return, and then we landed. A wave of anxiety, anger, and grief washed over me, and my mind raced through every single shitty detail that awaited me. Fuck, I have to get all my shit into storage! Fuck, where am I gonna live now? Fuck, do I have to hire a lawyer? Goddamn it, everything is fucked! Everything is fucked! I was deep in it. I lost of all sense of where I was. I started feeling a panic set it. I was fidgeting. I was wide-eyed and started sweating. And then I hear a noise. It was faint and barely caught my attention. At first, it sounded like a hum. And then I realized it was a voice. It was the old woman sitting next to me. In a hushed tone, almost like a chant, she was saying, 'Hey. Hey,' the way a mother would when consoling a fussy infant. I became aware of my clenched jaw and tensed posture, my fidgeting. I relaxed. I looked to my left to see this woman looking at me with such concern and compassion. Just chanting, lowly. 'Hey. Hey.' My default reaction normally might have been, 'Ugh, human interaction! Fucking gross!' But I was soon overcome with warmth and gratitude. We didn’t speak. Our turn to exit, she stood up smiled, grabbed her things and walked down the aisle. When I got to my car, I sobbed. This complete stranger had seen me, seen that I was in a fucked up place and comforted me the way I'd imagined a nurturing mother would. What a gem of a human being. Compassionate to a stranger. Wherever you are, thank you. I've never experienced kindness like that. Sometimes people can be really fucking great. Everything that sucked still sucked, but I felt the sense of comfort. Maybe I'm alone, but maybe I'm not." Thank you for that. And, it's so true that … you know, building a, a community, people that can support us, it doesn’t … mean that we’re immune from shitty things happening to us. But the comfort that we feel in the middle of those difficult times can be so profound. So profound.

[01:12:14] This is a shame and secret survey filled out, filled out by a guy who calls himself "Borrowed Time." And he is straight, in his 20s, was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment, was a victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "An uncle of a friend from church hung around with our youth group and made all the guys laugh. He was someone I knew from church. Instinctively, I trusted him and whomever he interacted with. He would take myself or my brothers out, separately, of course, to pay for meals, lunches, dinners, etcetera after church or before youth choir or other activities. We were not given every monetary opportunity, so it made sense to essentially feed my belly and make me laugh hysterically in some points. He would grab my leg, as I'd seen my stepdad grab my mom's leg, close to my crotch and torso, as he drove down the road. One afternoon before Wednesday night youth service, he invited me inside his home across the street from the church, 50 feet from church property. Notice the illusion of safety I felt. He talked about us watching porn together and to check out this awesome scene he had. He also asked if I had ever used lube to jerk off. I hadn’t. He kept asking to see my penis and kept asking if I needed help applying the lube or jerking myself off. At this point, after several tries, I allowed him to touch my penis, but quickly felt remorse, scolding him and shying away from finishing in a separate room away from his eyes. After cleaning myself up, I soon realized what had happened, but felt I had managed to experience the most mild form, if any, of abuse. I immediately left his house, crossed the street, ran into the church building into youth service—I was only 16 or 17—and never spoke about it again. To this day, there are two people that know about this event, and neither know as many specifics as I had previously mentioned." He's not sure if he's ever been emotionally or physically abused. Darkest thoughts: "Bisexuality. Being open with my body and sexuality, like I've heard things were in the 60s and 70s." Darkest secrets: "My male cousin and I made out on separate occasions. We were both very young, 11 or 12. I also allowed a male ex-roommate of mine to suck me off. I justify it to this day because I was 'wasted.' We're still friends, but have never mentioned anything regarding the evening. And in my mind, when it happened, I was acting compassionately because I figured he wanted to, and perhaps maybe he was lonely. Perhaps maybe it would make him feel better." You know, the, the question I think that we should act, ask ourselves when, you know, when we are … having sex that we don’t want to have, out of pity for somebody else, you know, when we say "I was doing it out of compassion," but was it compassionate towards yourself? Because I think compassion toward other human beings is great, but not at the expense of compassion toward ourselves. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Either being in an orgy or so infatuated and in love with someone with whom I'm having sex that nothing else matters. The feeling of intimate connection: mentally, emotionally, and physically." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "The most recent experience I've had through love, I would want to say so many things. To my deceased father, so many things as well." What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish for love, intimate, romantic love. I wish for the feeling that life was good and would end up just the way I wanted when I was younger, before certain aspects of life brought me to points I needed to be." Have you shared these things with other? "I've shared some of the things with others. I'm in a couple of 12-step programs, groups sharing/therapy. Work helps. I also see an LPC twice a month, but sometimes feel like there's a lack of authenticity, like he's collecting a paycheck and just allowing me to murmur on and on. I don’t really feel like he has a plan; just probably wants me to come to terms with my life and aspects of my life on my own, while he pushes and guides me down certain paths." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I feel better. I've a feeling I may come back to this template later. I've felt, for a while now, that I may want to share these three separate, perhaps homosexual experiences with my LPC." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Sometimes I feel alone. But I know I truly am not. There are tons of people who love and want me to be a part of their life. They just have their own lives to worry about. We're all a little crazy, dysfunctional, but perfect in our own way. I'm happy to be alive today, even in this shit of life. I hope that I continue to meet people who share the desire of emotional wellness and healthy balances in life." Thank you for that. Somebody is, is … sawing a tree down, next door. I don't know if you can hear that or not. But fuck it, huh?

[01:17:42] This is a memorable vacation argument filled out by "Mary." And she writes, "Growing up, my mom and I had a very tumultuous relationship and, honestly, every trip we took, some sort of explosive fight. I was a very anxious and difficult child, and my mom had very little patience for me. It always ended in fireworks. I was around 10 years old when we went to Niagara Falls as a family. I honestly don’t remember the details of the specific argument, but what I do remember is my mother calling her therapist after a giant fight between us and screaming into the phone, 'I'm going to fucking throw her in! She's going into Niagara Falls!' Yay, family vacations!" (Laughs) Oh my god! Thank you for that. And, uh, if your mom did throw you in, I hope she would have the decency to put you in a barrel and film it.

[01:18:39] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Yikes." And she writes, "This past November, we lost a member of our band to suicide. He was really good at wearing a mask, so nobody saw it coming. Not his closest of friends or brothers, who he was very open with. He played sousaphone in marching band and had just switched from trumpet. Being the low brass section leader and having always suffered from depression and anxiety myself, I took a little bit too much blame, asking myself, what if I had said hi more? What if I asked him how he was doing? What if I just told him I appreciated him, thinking that I, a person who hardly knew him, could have this great effect on if he lived or died. The Monday after his death—he died on a Friday, so it was the first school day we had since he passed—a bunch of people showed up early to leave a memorial. Some people brought flowers and one girl brought in her Canadian flag. Both of them were Canadian and he earned his American citizenship about a month before he passed. It was really nice to see everybody come together and decorate his sousaphone. Later that day, some anonymous person had left a sticky note with a little message to Daniel on the sousaphone. Our orchestra director gave us a huge stack of sticky notes, and everyone was leaving little messages for Daniel on the sousaphone. Many people invited friends that weren’t even in the band to leave a note, if they wanted to. A couple of weeks or months later—I don’t remember the exact time frame—I noticed a different looking note. His younger, brother, Max, had left a note on the sousaphone as well. He thanked us and told us he thought Daniel would really love what we all wrote. As well, a neighboring high school in our town sent us a poster saying, 'Thinking of You, With Love,' with all of their band members' names signed on it. Losing Daniel was one of the hardest things I've ever experienced. I barely knew him, yet thinking of him still brings me to tears. But the amount of community and outpour of love I've seen from the entire band community warms my heart. It makes me feel a lot less alone and way more safe, I'd never wish this tragedy on anyone or any other community, but seeing how the community comes together in the aftermath gives me hope." Thank you for that. That's really beautiful. That is really beautiful.

[01:21:14] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Totally Talented Nobody." She's straight, in her 50s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. She writes, "Twin sister developed bipolar at age 16. Yearly hospitalizations followed." She was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "It was a virgin rape. I was a virgin rape victim at age 17 by a 30-year-old stranger, Vietnam vet in the daytime. I became pregnant after the rape and went by myself to have an abortion. Never told my parents. I dissociated from the experience and began a career of successfully creating news me's." She's also been physically and emotionally abused. "For four years, my father ritualistically marched my well-behaved three-year-old twin sister and I to the garage and asked us to bend over to get hit with the stick to pre-punish us, in case we did anything bad while he was gone at work for three days. He was a decorated fire chief in the Bronx. He pulled me out of bed during a nap to beat me on my seventh birthday, among other things. I felt hatred, shame, and heartbroken." Any positive experiences? "I completely forgave the man when I got married and needed him to walk me down the aisle, and thereafter be a grandfather to my son. He worshipped my son." Darkest thoughts: "I think about a society that allows anyone over age 60, healthy or not, to have the freedom to decide to die in a controlled, peaceful setting." We don’t deserve the same rights as dogs. What are your deepest, darkest secrets? "I let a criminal have sex with me. I had sex with my girlfriend's brother, right after the rape, and will never know which fetus I aborted." Man, that is heavy. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you. "None at this time. I used to fantasize about a boyfriend having sex with men. I don’t feel much about it; no guilt, as I never engaged myself in anything that I'm ashamed of." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone that you haven’t been able to? "I had an exciting, successful life before I met you. But if I start to tell you the good stuff, I may slip and tell you the forbidden secrets of abuse that most people in this town never experienced." What, if anything, do you wish for? "Peace. Contentment. True, easy friendships. No more internal or external conflict. Ture self-love. Being understood." Have you shared these things with others? "Two years ago, with a very compassionate therapist. She diagnosed me, as this is her specialty, that I have DID, dissociative identity disorder. Don’t buy it, especially not now after almost 20 years of Buddhist practice, listening and reading to hundreds of amazing teachers, meditation, and yoga. I have reintegrated, for the most part, on my own, especially in the past five years." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Catharsis and gratitude to Paul. I've learned so much and finally found the words to express myself in therapy. I learned, especially, from his heartfelt wisdom and sharing. When we're raised on disappointment, we keep ourselves down low so the fall isn't as far—one of the countless gems that eased my feelings of regret." I almost didn’t read that section, uh, because I felt like that would be me bragging or, or, you know, overly prideful. But, um, I've I, I know the healthy thing is to … read that. To sit with the discomfort of somebody thinking I'm full of myself. Because it feels good to read that. Not necessarily out loud, but to hear somebody share that. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Find a therapist. Open up to a safe person. Don’t be a person pleaser; you'll attract takers. Everyone has or will have a burden. The more you expose, the more you attract your kind." Thank you so much for that. You sound like a real survivor, a real warrior.

[01:25:54] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself (chuckles) "Dead Houseplant." Aren't all houseplants dead houseplants, or just in various states of being killed? "My grandfather recently passed away. When I heard the news, I attempted to do that thing where you replay all of the fond memories that you share with the person. Instead, the only memory that came to mind was the very last time I saw him in the hospital. There wasn't much to talk about, and my father made the mistake of bringing up politics, specifically Obama. To break the tension, I said to my grandfather, 'Yeah, love him or hate him, you gotta admit he's a handsome guy.' To which, my grandpa replied dryly, 'I don’t like the blacks.' This is my final memory of my grandfather." Wow. (Laughs) That's like, that is like … ugh! It's just … sadly such a cliché of the old, racist person. I'm actually surprised that he didn’t use the word coloreds.

[01:27:03] This is, uh … finally, this is a happy moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Sad Boi Hours," and boy is b-o-i. "I have had the most incredible day. I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder just over a year ago, and was finally offered a place in the DBT program about three month ago. I love my psychologist and see him every week. However, I was dreading the group sessions. I have issues talking. Finding, using, and articulating words is not my strong suit. I knew that I would be the only new person starting, as people began at different times throughout the program. I was afraid of it feeling like being the new girl at school, sitting alone at lunch and not having anyone to borrow a pencil from. I'm a physically anxious person and often get pains from anxiety in my stomach. So sleeping last night and fighting the urge to vomit was difficult. I arrived this morning at the place the group was on. There was no one at the reception of the building, and I absolutely did not know where to go. I stood and panicked for a few minutes before walking around, and eventually I could hear voices. I followed the sound of laughter and found the room the group …" uh, " … found—" (laughs) " … found—" Boy, did I kill the momentum. " … and found the room the group was on." Oh, I, I see why—" … found the room the group was on in." I think that must be a typo. "I felt—" So what I'm saying is this beautiful survey, the person that filled it out, I cast you to hell for making me stumble. "It's a group of eight women, most of who are a lot older than me. I was afraid that I wasn’t 'bad enough' to deserve this therapy. I had major imposter syndrome. But hearing a 40-year-old mother talk about how she couldn’t shower this weekend made me realize that we're all the same. One woman's weekly accomplishment was staying out after dark. Another's was cleaning her room. Another's, calling a friend after a year. I've always felt like I'm not pulling my weight. I'm 20, but I act like a child. My struggles aren’t real struggles. I cannot tell you how validating it was to hear a PE teacher tell me she 'couldn’t be arsed to cook her kids proper meals that week.' I am not alone. I cannot wait to go back next week. The room is warm, the chairs are comfy, and I can see cows in the field from the window. I am so happy." Just beautiful. Just beautiful. I love when you guys paint pictures.

[01:29:53] And, um, I hope if you're out there and you're … feeling alone, that … listening to this episode has helped you realize that you're not. And while our external circumstances may differ, internally we are all so much alike. And … just never forget that you're not alone. And thanks for listening.

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