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By Joel Mathis and Ben Boychuk

New laws in Indiana and Arkansas have been passed in the name of "religious freedom," allowing businesses owners in those states to refuse service to gay couples if providing that service violates their religious beliefs. Advocates say the laws are needed so that Christians won't be forced to provide photography or baking services for a gay wedding, say, while critics say the bills legalize discrimination.

Do these bills protect religious minorities? Legalize discrimination? Or both? Joel Mathis and Ben Boychuk, the RedBlueAmerica columnists, debate.

JOEL MATHIS

To my gay friends: Do not despair. You are winning the fight. There are far more business owners who want your money than will refuse it. And nothing in the law says you can't fight back against discrimination: If somebody won't take your money because you're gay, remember that - and make sure all your friends and relatives know that, too. If the government won't compel service, neither can it compel patronage.

To my Christian friends, I offer these relevant verses from the NIV (New Indiana Version) of the Holy Bible:

-JOHN 8: The Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to deny her cake and flowers at her wedding."

-LUKE 18: A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus said to him, "You still lack one thing. Put a sign on your door letting gays and lesbians know they can't get goods or services at your shop. Then come, follow me."

-JOHN 11: Jesus wept - with joy, because the gays had no one to photograph their wedding.

What? You say that none of these passages sound like Jesus as he's portrayed in the Bible? Well of course it doesn't.

The Jesus of the Bible was a man who, whenever he countered individuals accused of some unpardonable sin, usually sat down and broke bread with them. He offered grace, forgiveness and love. The laws of Indiana and Arkansas show no evidence of that influence. Hopefully someday - maybe even soon - they'll be repealed.

BEN BOYCHUK

My friend Joel Mathis is entirely too glib. Conservatives have been warning for years that gay marriage and religious liberties could not coexist. One or the other would have to give, and the loser would most likely be the First Amendment.

The reason is straightforward: If resistance to same-sex marriage is founded only on animus and there can be no rational basis for believing marriage is only a union between one man and one woman, then your religious beliefs - no matter how fervently held - won't matter one whit.

And so notice the language Joel uses: "If the government won't compel service ." Why not simply say the government should compel service? And if you don't like it, maybe you shouldn't be in business at all.

Of course, Indiana's law compels neither service nor patronage. Pay no mind that 19 other states have roughly similar laws. And ignore the fact that the law does not explicitly grant business owners license to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Who needs facts when we can have a national freak out?

When the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2013 that the federal government's and California's definition of marriage as a union between one man and one woman was unconstitutional, Joel and I argued what the decision would mean for religious liberties.

Only a matter of time

I made the case that it was only a matter of time before what we know as "freedom of religion" would be whittled down to "little more than the freedom to worship whatever deity you choose in a special building one day out of the week."

Joel would have none of that. "Liberty is not zero-sum," he assured. He lamented how "anti-marriage conservatives" with "their cramped-yet-overactive imaginations" would "panic about the freedoms they'll lose just because Adam and Steve are finally free to tie the knot." Oh, how times change!

The writer Rod Dreher a few years back came up with the Law of Merited Impossibility, which holds: "It's a complete absurdity to believe that Christians will suffer a single thing from the expansion of gay rights, and boy, do they deserve what they're going to get."

And they're getting it good and hard - for progress!

Ben Boychuk (bboychukcity-journal.org) is associate editor of the Manhattan Institute's City Journal. Joel Mathis (joelmmathisgmail.com) is associate editor for Philadelphia Magazine. Visit them on Facebook: www.facebook.com/benandjoel.