Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 7:02 AM

I've been playing Dark Souls 2 again thanks to the event I'm surprised to say this, but the game just isn't fun-- I miss Dark Souls 3 and I honest-to-god think its invasion system is better

I invaded about 10 people, some in the Copse and some as a Bell-Bro; every single one of them was a Sorcerer or a Hexer or a hybrid of some sort, and nearly all of them died immediately after I closed the gap and bullied them for a while Then I got invaded one time, and the invader had a buffed Ice Rapier at an even lower SM than me (under 300k which is majorly early-game)

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 7:06 AM

you just extended the biggest issue with dks2

sm

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 7:07 AM

I never thought of SM as an issue since I knew what I was doing with it

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 7:07 AM

now you realise that once you go high enough you can run into someone at max SL or sl1

it's a poor system

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 7:08 AM

Keep in mind too that on this character, I haven't lost more than 500 souls tops to deaths/lost bloodstains, every single soul has gone into leveling up or at times a weapon or cheap consumables

I'm only just past 400k now

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 7:09 AM

what's the max SL you can get at 400k sm

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 7:10 AM

whatever the max is, I'm very close to it; I'd probably be able to squeeze 2 or 3 more SLs in if I hadn't bought two Falchions, an Uchigatana or a handful of Titanite

... make that closer to 4 SLs now that I think about it

Im in the high SL70s or low 80s

and I went back into this game figuring that nowadays anyone who still played and made new characters would be doing the same thing as me, being able to perfectly conserve souls and not lose any and get themselves min-maxed

but I'm still seeing either Drangleic Set noobs everywhere, or ultra-tryhards

mostly the former

I keep comparing to Dark Souls 3 and how much more diverse the community is in-game and I feel so depressed now, since my "roots" are in Dark Souls 2, it's the game where I learned how to PvP and invade

but I don't feel like I could ever go back now that I've tried it

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 7:14 AM

it's an outdated system

if I had the choice to make any souls game better I'd either choose to upgrade the des engine or change dks2 levelling/matchmaking

heponatnokto-Today at 8:31 AM

@Akari of Sabbath [PS4] tryhards are the best part of dks2 community

you should feel happy that you get to fight them

because pretty much every good player left dks3

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:32 AM

That's not true, because I still haven't left.

heponatnokto-Today at 8:32 AM

nice, you haven't participated in any tournament

you do invasions and fight pve players

and consider yourself good

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:33 AM

you are aware that you're accusing an invader of being un-skilled just for choosing to invade-- in a Bloodshade Discord, right?

heponatnokto-Today at 8:33 AM

when you invade you fight pve players

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:33 AM

>I miss Dark Souls 3

heponatnokto-Today at 8:33 AM

and pve players are completely clueless about the game

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:34 AM

Things must've got really shitty

heponatnokto-Today at 8:34 AM

they fall for the shitties of oneshot meme builds

they are bad

incredibly bad

MIKE TYSON-Today at 8:35 AM

So it turns out the wildlands beta is a trolls paradise, you can completely fuck peoples missions up and just drop them into the sea from a helicopter. This is fun

heponatnokto-Today at 8:35 AM

you are beating up babies and say that you are skilled

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:35 AM

Glorified The Division sequel

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:36 AM

You're generalizing every single invasion that happens into one type and you know it. You're doing it for no reason other than to discredit me

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:37 AM

Not quite

heponatnokto-Today at 8:37 AM

because 99.9% of them are like that

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:37 AM

I don't take you for such a fool as to think you don't understand how intricate and complex the social dynamics of invasions work

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:37 AM

He's demonstrating what the majority of invasions are

heponatnokto-Today at 8:38 AM

99.9% of invasions get you to fight pve players, who have no clue about even the basics of spacing and rolling properly

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:38 AM

I would say about half my DkS3 invasions are PvErs/co-opers and the other half know what they're doing

I don't know where you got your 99.9% figure but that is genuinely un-true

heponatnokto-Today at 8:38 AM

it is genuinely true

we are talking about players most of whom aren't able to simply press b on reaction against a curved sword r1

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:39 AM

If anything I'd call Dark Souls 2's player base much closer to that ratio

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:39 AM

"know what they're doing"

heponatnokto-Today at 8:39 AM

dark souls 2 has a lot of good players still playing

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:39 AM

You mean arena randoms

heponatnokto-Today at 8:40 AM

pretty much everytime anybody streams arena, you get some good players sniping that streamer

especially if that is a good player

dark souls 2 pvp community lives on streams

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:41 AM

Streaming is not a fair instance to compare to, since they imply an activity spike centered around a single point-- it is not organic game activity

heponatnokto-Today at 8:41 AM

the thing is that streams happen pretty regularly

a lot of players who do that streamsniping stream themselves

dark souls 2 and dark souls 1 tryhard community lives on streams and centers themselves around streams

that's how it generally works

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:42 AM

so what then, you're insinuating that I am a skilless player because I don't limit my PvP to these clique circles?

Toraso-Today at 8:43 AM

you aren't good because you aren't anywhere near actually good levels of play

heponatnokto-Today at 8:43 AM

well, you have the opportunity to try and fight those players

every time

go on twitch

Toraso-Today at 8:43 AM

killing bad people says nothing about how skilled you are

fighting actually decent people does

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:43 AM

Inactive game communities naturally rely on activity spikes to gather round people

heponatnokto-Today at 8:44 AM

go on twitch, wait until somebody like let's say 1000minus7, legu, etc streams

go to arena

and get your ass beaten

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:44 AM

Dark Souls 3 is not inactive

heponatnokto-Today at 8:44 AM

dark souls 3 is inactive when it comes to everybody who has any idea about the game's pvp

you know why?

because dark souls 3 is extremely shallow

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:45 AM

I'm not talking about ds3 smh

heponatnokto-Today at 8:45 AM

people who came from fighting games and dks1/dks2 left the game a long time ago

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:45 AM

But it can still be considered dead

heponatnokto-Today at 8:45 AM

long time dks1 players didn't even touch the game

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:45 AM

You have no idea what you're talking about

I could argue with you but everything I say you would just deny

heponatnokto-Today at 8:46 AM

people like fisto for example left the game extremely early

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:46 AM

The game is shallow to you because you lack the ability to see its depth

heponatnokto-Today at 8:46 AM

japanese dks1 pvpers left early

soem people sticked around

but ultimately they left

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:46 AM

Depth

What depth?

Toraso-Today at 8:47 AM

dark souls is not a series for depth

but ds3 is shallow even for souls

dartcasting and shieldskip is patched, there is like one useful tech which is buffered running

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:47 AM

who are you to say what Dark Souls is "a series for"? Dark Souls is whatever we want it to be

heponatnokto-Today at 8:47 AM

dks3 has pretty much nothing besides punishing panic rolls and whiffs

the most shallow game in the series

Toraso-Today at 8:48 AM

play it however you wish

saying it has more depth than 1 or 2 is just incorrect

heponatnokto-Today at 8:49 AM

the amount of depth just in dks1 neutral spacing game is more than in anything dark souls 3 has to offer

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:50 AM

> dks3 has pretty much nothing besides punishing panic rolls and whiffs Interceptions, counterplays, Warding-swings, field momentum, Poise-Trading, projectile-leading, stance-dancing, Feints, hazing, quick-crosshair kills with the Bow to name just a few

heponatnokto-Today at 8:51 AM

compared to any fighting game, dark souls is child's play

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:51 AM

The Buff game

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:51 AM

Fancy names?

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:51 AM

Wars of Attrition

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:51 AM

Never heard of any of these

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:51 AM

I'm hardly surprised

You lot accuse the game of not being deep-- you just choose not to see it

heponatnokto-Today at 8:52 AM

@Akari of Sabbath [PS4] show me any of those things being performed in a tournament environment

all best duelists in dks3 play very basically

yet they consistently beat everybody they face or go 50/50 with them

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:52 AM

That looks like some made up names created by you to deny the shalllowness of the game tbh

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:52 AM

I don't understand why you're talking about duelists and tournaments still I have never been a duelist. I am a skilled invader

heponatnokto-Today at 8:53 AM

you can't be a skilled invader

pve players are clueless

you can't be skilled at beating up clueless people

Toraso-Today at 8:53 AM

all of it is made up words for extremely simple concepts cav

heponatnokto-Today at 8:53 AM

who can't even roll greatsword twohanded r1 on reaction

Toraso-Today at 8:53 AM

now freeaiming a crossbow is considered hard and a tech

The Wolf of Savannah-Today at 8:53 AM

are the DS3 PS4 game servers working for you guys?

Toraso-Today at 8:53 AM

or literally just trading

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:53 AM

I figured

Toraso-Today at 8:53 AM

trading is now a tech that only ds3 has

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:54 AM

what about 3 PvE players at once? or 3 good players at once?

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 8:54 AM

"good"

heponatnokto-Today at 8:54 AM

you just meme on those pve players

because they are still clueless

heponatnokto-Today at 8:54 AM

they for fall for simplest things

if you want to consistently beat pve players

heponatnokto-Today at 8:55 AM

all you need is a oneshot meme build or a good twink

that's it

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:55 AM

well I've never used one-shot builds or parries during invasions. Never once

heponatnokto-Today at 8:55 AM

and good players don't go around pontiff ganking

@Akari of Sabbath [PS4] do a stream with you doing invasions live

and show how consistently you can beat people

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:56 AM

I might, some time

but you're not invited, if that happens, I'll promise you that right now

heponatnokto-Today at 8:56 AM

people have done such things before

and people who get consistently high winrate simply just bait those absolutely clueless players into the simplest things over and over again

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:58 AM

I don't know what I could possibly tell you to get you to see it a different way

heponatnokto-Today at 8:58 AM

because doing anything else is pointless

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:58 AM

You've obviously watched my video series-- you wouldn't have recognized me as an invader if not

heponatnokto-Today at 8:58 AM

because you are basically participating in a game off "how can i beat them in a fancier way for my new vid"

instead of actually playing to fucking win

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 8:59 AM

yeah, you're on a different wavelength entirely

You should really be sticking to the Overwatch discords or whatever instead of haze people in a Bloodshade discord-- a place where invaders, with invader mindsets, specifically gather to celebrate something they enjoy

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:00 AM

You're literally here only to spread toxicity, is what you've demonstrated

heponatnokto-Today at 9:00 AM

there is nothing to celebrate about beating clueless people

absolutely

it can be fun

sure

but it isn't a measure of skill by any means

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:01 AM

I can beat players at their level, without a min-maxed build, and I feel that that demonstrates skill

Not "win-rates", but that I can take something denounced as un-viable and make it viable, that itself

heponatnokto-Today at 9:01 AM

you are not learning how to play against better opponents

so that is all pointless

skill is measured by the types of opponents you beat

if you can go and beat somebody like let's say, BrokenSword in a best of 9 set

or somebody like skorbrand

or sksa

or even scottjund for that matter

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:03 AM

You're not wrong in how you define skill, but you're wrong for saying it's the one and only definition

You call what I do "pointless"

heponatnokto-Today at 9:04 AM

it is the best definition

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:04 AM

That is your opinion

heponatnokto-Today at 9:04 AM

in a game where two or more players compete

it is the only definition

a player who can do fifteen dragon punches in a row in street fighter might think that he is skilled

but if he loses an opponents who just throws him 5 times in a row

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:05 AM

and I still believe you're skewing the point of PvP in Dark Souls drastically by considering dueling to be the only valid form of PvP

heponatnokto-Today at 9:05 AM

he isn't skilled

duelling isn't the only valid form of pvp, but it is the one which allows to highlight and compare individual skill the best

more over, it is the form of play around which there is a dedicated community

a community which plays to win

and playing to win in a competitive environment in a game which has depth(doesn't apply to dks3, but applies to des, dks1 and dks2) is fun

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 9:08 AM

If you fought arena randoms it would be equally pointless

heponatnokto-Today at 9:08 AM

there is no dedicated team fight community for dark souls

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:09 AM

Demons' Souls has far less depth than Dark Souls 3; I love the hell out of that game but I guarantee you it's not got deep PvP

heponatnokto-Today at 9:09 AM

where people would competitively play team fights

@Akari of Sabbath [PS4] des and dks1 have an order of magnitude more depth than dks3

simply because the devs sneezed on the game code

and didn't patch shit

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:10 AM

You're completely and entirely skewed or biased against the game I play

heponatnokto-Today at 9:10 AM

because it has less depth than any other souls game

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:10 AM

There's no way we can come to an agreement on anything here

I thought there had been something but after you make a comment like that you've lost me

heponatnokto-Today at 9:11 AM

it objectively has less depth

it is objectively true

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:11 AM

and I objectively disagree

heponatnokto-Today at 9:12 AM

you know to what high tier dks3 play comes down to? To spacing and whiff punishing

there is nothing else to it

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:12 AM

Think whatever you want I was miffed at first that you would call me a skilless player but now that I realize who I'm talking to, it's simply laugh-worthy

heponatnokto-Today at 9:12 AM

you are fighting bad players and call yourself skilled

there is nothing more delusional than that

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:13 AM

yeah well you're just as delusional, and Dark Souls 3 is a deeper game than you're physically capable of understanding

heponatnokto-Today at 9:14 AM

ok, show me the effective way to play which can beat a good player at the game which doesn't come to down to extremely basic things like baiting out whiffed attacks and panic rolls

because that's literally all there is to it

that is what all tournament matches come down to(edited)

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:15 AM

well then I'm glad I'm not a tournament player, because tournament matches sound insanely dull from that description

heponatnokto-Today at 9:15 AM

yes, this is why people quit the game

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:15 AM

I don't need to be a tournament player to know I'm skilled

heponatnokto-Today at 9:15 AM

because the game is shallow and boring

the effective way to play is the most boring and shallow one

it is an example of a type of game which gets worse as you get better at it

a degenerate game

good competitive games become more fun as you get better

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:16 AM

Dark Souls 3 isn't competitive.

You're trying to come at it from a gimmicked angle

heponatnokto-Today at 9:17 AM

getting better at street fighter gives you more options and makes the fights with your equals more engaging

@Akari of Sabbath [PS4] yes, it isn't competitive because it is so shallow

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:17 AM

but that's kinda like "fanfiction" honestly

You're trying to apply the word "shallow" but the problem is that you're trying to make it into something it's not in the first place

The problem isn't the game, the problem is you

heponatnokto - Today at 9:19 AM

the problem is that previous souls games had depth

there are a lot of things going on in just neutral spacing game in dks1 for example

high level play and getting better at duels makes the game more fun

unlike dks3 in which the opposite is true

and that is exactly the reason why people who played dks1 and dks2 for a long time and got good at the game didn't like this game

and didn't come over

or if they did, they left later

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:21 AM

well I "grew up" in Dark Souls 2, it is where I learned how to PvP and to invade

and not for a short time, either-- I had over 400 Arena wins, had the +2 Brotherhood enhanced aura three times on different characters, and additionally I mained a weapon that the vast majority of players regarded as a "funsies weapon"-- powerstanced Claws

Dark Souls 2 PvP was my life

heponatnokto - Today at 9:23 AM

nobody cares what you main, who did you beat, that's what matters

being able to consistently win against arena players isn't hard

hell, i can do that despite not having properly played the game for a long fucking time

yet i am still considered a bad player there

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:24 AM

Oh! And here you are lecturing me about how I have no skill and any skill I think I have doesn't count

and telling me I'm delusional for finding enjoyment in a game that others miss out on

heponatnokto - Today at 9:25 AM

there is nothing wrong with fun

absolutely

but when it comes to skill

your viewpoint is absolutely incorrect

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:25 AM

I disagree with you

Three-on-one without relying on gimmicks

I've proven that I'm skilled

heponatnokto - Today at 9:26 AM

you are relying on players being bad, let's say i bring somebody like sksa and neptune with me

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:26 AM

and I don't need to prove it to you nor anyone, and despite that, I've proved it

heponatnokto - Today at 9:26 AM

and start to gank you

you won't last long

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:26 AM

You don't know that

heponatnokto - Today at 9:26 AM

you wouldn't last long against sksa even 1v1

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:27 AM

Maybe not, but in an invasion setting, I'm in my element

If you, as a host, brought two high-end elite arena-goers with you and tried to traverse one end of Irithyll Dungeon to Yhorm's room, anything goes,

you three would be talking about me all night

heponatnokto - Today at 9:28 AM

you would be an annoyance, sure

but you wouldn't be able to do any open fighting

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:29 AM

That's definitely not what an invader wants

... You've actually given me an idea for a new video, you know

heponatnokto - Today at 9:30 AM

the thing is that you don't get an opportunity to practice against elite arena goers trying to kill you in an organised manner

absolutely no opportunity

you get to fight pve players and average pontiff ganksquads

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:31 AM

That's largely because it's not an opportunity that really comes up

I tried to get into Oroboro's and Sky's stream, but through the entire 6-hour event, not once did I get in

(while some others got in 4 times)

so yes I did make an effort

heponatnokto - Today at 9:32 AM

so you are claiming that you are good at something which never really happened in the first place

or rather something you never did in the first place

Akari of Sabbath [PS4] - Today at 9:32 AM

Yes.

Yes I am claiming I could do that if it happened.

Like I said-- new idea for a video

heponatnokto-Today at 9:33 AM

also, oroboro and sky's aren't even good

they got beaten in tournaments on the first round

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:33 AM

Here you go with the tournaments again

heponatnokto-Today at 9:33 AM

everytime oro has been in, he got knocked out first or second round

their performance isn't stellar

that's the thing, tournaments are a competitive environment, the one where is no circumstance and where everybody is equal

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:34 AM

Once again I'll say it, I don't need to be a skilled duelist to be a skilled invader or skilled at PvP

I never once said I was the most skilled or even one of the most skilled

heponatnokto-Today at 9:35 AM

the thing is that there is no organised team fight community, where people would go and and push teamfights to it's limits

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:35 AM

This whole ordeal started because you said "the skilled players left Dark Souls 3"

heponatnokto-Today at 9:35 AM

we don't get organised teamfight pvp'ers

we had organised competitive duelling

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:35 AM

I replied and said "no, because I still haven't left"

heponatnokto-Today at 9:35 AM

for a while, until it died off

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:36 AM

and you proceeded to harp on that for the next... I think it's been close to an hour

and I felt personally attacked

heponatnokto-Today at 9:36 AM

you consider yourself good when you beat up clueless pve'rs and pontiff gank squads

there is absolutely nothing impressive about that

because we are dealing with low level players

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:37 AM

It is impressive to a great deal of people

I'm pretty sure the tournament junkies are the odd ones in the Dark Souls community at large

heponatnokto-Today at 9:38 AM

yes, it historically happened that scrub mentality was dominant

it still is

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:38 AM

You guys are the ones that are literally going out of your way to turn the game into something it's not (which is not a "wrong" thing to do but let's at least admit it)

heponatnokto-Today at 9:38 AM

that scrub mentality in souls community at large appeared a long time ago

in dks1 days

and dks1 isn't a game without any potential

or without any depth

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:39 AM

Neither is Dark Souls 3

You will never convince me otherwise, after what I have personally seen in it

what I have chosen to look for, and ultimately find

heponatnokto-Today at 9:39 AM

it absolutely is

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:39 AM

**found

heponatnokto-Today at 9:39 AM

dks3 has no potential for competitive play

dks1 has

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:40 AM

The Souls games have never been competitive, potential or otherwise

heponatnokto-Today at 9:40 AM

dks1 is

dks2 is

dks1 is still played competitively

there are still tournaments

people still find new tech to this day

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:41 AM

I'm not saying they're aren't

but it's not what the game is

heponatnokto-Today at 9:41 AM

you have just said taht(edited)

[20:40] Akari of Sabbath [PS4]: The Souls games have never been competitive, potential or otherwise

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:42 AM

A group of players have made a competitve scene of it, but through brute force basically

heponatnokto-Today at 9:42 AM

for a game to be competitive it needs to be played competitively

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:42 AM

That's not what the game is-- only what the competitive players set out to make it

heponatnokto-Today at 9:42 AM

dks1 is played competitively

thus it can be competitive

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:42 AM

are you hearing what I'm saying? I don't think you are

heponatnokto-Today at 9:42 AM

more over, the game stood up to this kind of play

that's the thing

you can make a competitive game out of dks1 mechanics

but not out of dks3 mechanics

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:43 AM

And you're saying Dark Souls 3 is shallow, for that reason

heponatnokto-Today at 9:43 AM

yes

i do

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:44 AM

and I'm saying that that is a flawed perspective.

heponatnokto-Today at 9:44 AM

dark souls 3 doesn't stand up to players trying to play to win in a controlled environment

because the game becomes less fun when you do so

the better you are at playing in such controlled environment, the worse the game gets

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:45 AM

You're pinning a prerequisite on the game (that being "competitive potential") that is a fabricated, fan-made concept, in order to judge it on how deep it is

heponatnokto-Today at 9:45 AM

that is how skill works in a game where multiple people compete with each other to achieve a victory condition

this is how depth works

there is no dedicated community for dks3 which pushes the game to it's limits

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:46 AM

I feel like I've been doing just that, though

heponatnokto-Today at 9:46 AM

you have been pushing your abilities to beat bad players to their limits

that's it

heponatnokto-Today at 9:47 AM

for you to push the game further

you would need to fight people like you

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:47 AM

There's more to it, you know it and you're denying it

heponatnokto-Today at 9:47 AM

and find the best one

and then let's those best ones fight each other

this is how you push a game to it's limits

find the best of the best

dks3 doesn't stand up to this kind of play

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 9:48 AM

99.9% of the population are bad though

heponatnokto-Today at 9:48 AM

absolutely

it doesn't

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 9:48 AM

the good people play dks2 or dks1

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:48 AM

There's more than one way

heponatnokto-Today at 9:48 AM

this kind of play exposes how little there is to this games mechanics

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:48 AM

You're so stuck on your absolutes

There is not just "black and white"

heponatnokto-Today at 9:49 AM

in dks1 when people did that and fought each other in such a way and dedicated time to figure out every last nook and cranny

people found depth

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:49 AM

What about all the lore theorists?

heponatnokto-Today at 9:49 AM

and thus dks1 community is still active to this day

not the most active

but still(edited)

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:50 AM

Talking about pushing a game to its limits-- what about the lore theorists? I don't care much for lore personally but there are a great deal of players who take it to an insane depth

It is just as valid a way to play Dark Souls as PvP, PvE, invasions, duels, whatever else

heponatnokto-Today at 9:50 AM

lore isn't the game

it has nothing to do with the game's mechanics

we are talking game mechanics here

lore is irrelevant

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:51 AM

The game's mechanics are not the only depth to the game

We're not just talking about the game's mechanics

heponatnokto-Today at 9:51 AM

we absolutely do

we are talking about how much mechanical depth the game has

and the answer is that that amount is low

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:52 AM

I've never been talking about that in particular since this debate started

I don't limit "depth" to only one aspect of a game

heponatnokto-Today at 9:52 AM

that's the most important aspect

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:52 AM

That's your opinion

heponatnokto-Today at 9:52 AM

gameplay is what makes a game a game

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:53 AM

You ever played Journey?

Maybe that was a bit of a gimmicked example since I myself actually haven't played it but, I can actually use Dark Souls 1 as my example

or even better, Demons' Souls

My very first, virgin run through Demons' Souls

heponatnokto-Today at 9:54 AM

Dark Souls 1 and DeS have raw mechanical depth in pvp

this is why people play them to this day

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:54 AM

I'm not talking about PvP right now

talking about "whether gameplay makes a game a game"

heponatnokto-Today at 9:55 AM

in which case the discussion is over

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:55 AM

The very first Souls game I ever played was DeS. I had never played anything like it, and it took me over 50, frustrated attempts to finish Boletaria 1-1, make it to Phalanx and beat him

There was no victory fanfare at the end of it-- just the message "THE DEMON WAS DESTROYED"

and I jumped out of my seat, SCREAMING IN JOY

Demons' Souls was a game I experienced. Not one that I just "played"

heponatnokto-Today at 9:57 AM

this level of mental gymnastics is staggering

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:57 AM

Demons' Souls changed my life forever, and changed games as I knew them, as well as my way of thinking

heponatnokto-Today at 9:58 AM

you went from trying to prove that the game has depth in pvp

to this

trying to defend yourself

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 9:58 AM

No, I never tried to prove anything to you

heponatnokto-Today at 9:58 AM

because you couldm't defend your point of pvp having depth

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 9:58 AM

fun fact, demon's souls was a complete mess during early development and it was seen as a failure. after FromSoft decided to let Armoured Core director Hidetaka Miyazaki take over, he said "I saw this as an opportunity to make whatever I want. And nobody could tell me otherwise, because it was a failure to begin with."

heponatnokto-Today at 9:59 AM

you try to praise the game on the merits which i didn't even touch

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 9:59 AM

des is great

heponatnokto-Today at 9:59 AM

i never mentioned lore for example

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 9:59 AM

des pvp is great

des lore is great

des pve is great

des > dks

heponatnokto-Today at 10:00 AM

i have been talking about a specific point about how dks3 pvp doesn't have depth

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:00 AM

My point in bringing those up was to back up my point in that "there is more to a game than just its gameplay mechanics" which is the opposite of your point "gameplay is what makes a game a game"

heponatnokto-Today at 10:01 AM

it isn't, you sophist

those two points don't contradict each other

in any way

you are demonstrating incredible levels of sophitry

can i just remind you that the talk from the beginning was about pvp and the mechanical depth of dark souls 3

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:02 AM

I'm saying that Demons' Souls was more than just a game to me, and it wasn't because of its gameplay mechanics, it was other things

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:02 AM

ok like

"gameplay mechanics" and "gameplay" are two different things

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:02 AM

No, the talk from the beginning was you personally attacking me

heponatnokto-Today at 10:02 AM

that point is completely irrelevant to the original discussion

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:03 AM

The talk from the beginning was you calling me skillless, and you saying none of my invasion skill counts or matters because I don't play the game your way

and not only that but I had about two or three other people here jumping on that

because woooo bandwagon mentality

heponatnokto-Today at 10:04 AM

the discussion began with you claiming that dks3 is better

because the community is more "diverse"

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:02 AM

No, the talk from the beginning was you personally attacking me

heponatnokto-Today at 10:02 AM

that point is completely irrelevant to the original discussion

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:03 AM

The talk from the beginning was you calling me skillless, and you saying none of my invasion skill counts or matters because I don't play the game your way

and not only that but I had about two or three other people here jumping on that

because woooo bandwagon mentality

heponatnokto-Today at 10:04 AM

the discussion began with you claiming that dks3 is better

because the community is more "diverse"

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:04 AM

No no no

I said I prefered Dark Souls 3 better

I said "I miss Dark Souls 3"

I never said "it is intrinsically better"

heponatnokto-Today at 10:04 AM

yes, for reasons of dks3 having a more "diverse" community

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:04 AM

Yes, that's right

and then you said "99.9% of them are PvErs who don't understand basic gameplay mechanics"

heponatnokto-Today at 10:05 AM

and i pointed out how that that diversity doesn't make the game better, how in pvp tryhards are what makes the game

more over

you claimed that you are skilled

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:05 AM

Skilled at invading, correct

heponatnokto-Today at 10:05 AM

when all you did is fight pve'rs and ganksquads

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:05 AM

which you denounced as "not a thing"

and that is not "all I've fought"

heponatnokto-Today at 10:06 AM

that's all you did

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:06 AM

not all pvers are bad at the game

everyone plays through the game at least once or twice

heponatnokto-Today at 10:06 AM

people who tryhard it up and push the game to it's limits have been hanging around in fightclubs

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:06 AM

if all pveers are bad then you're bad

heponatnokto-Today at 10:07 AM

and not playing randomly through the game

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:07 AM

"randomly"

you mean every time they make a new character

heponatnokto-Today at 10:07 AM

@[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza i said 99.9%

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:07 AM

for a build

heponatnokto-Today at 10:07 AM

not all

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:07 AM

I also fight cosplayers, password-summoned buddies, arena-goers who are caught outside of their arena, and I think on one occasion I beat a dedicated streamer and didn't realize it (someone told me Frostitute is rbFrosty)

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:07 AM

or the dlc

heponatnokto-Today at 10:07 AM

@[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza they use CE

or mule

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:07 AM

ah

you're talking about

lazy people

ok

heponatnokto-Today at 10:07 AM

because there isn't much to dks3 pve

the game is linear

it is a chore to play through the game for every build

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:07 AM

about as linear as a forked road

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:08 AM

It's not a chore for me

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:08 AM

also if we're talking about the people that Akari invades, they won't be using CE

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:08 AM

I've been doing that since Dark Souls 2 (out of necessity because of Soul Memory), I've been doing that here too

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:08 AM

so yes, the skilled pvpers will be pveing

heponatnokto-Today at 10:08 AM

skilled pvp'ers will make a build with CE

because that's the efficient and time saving option

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:08 AM

on ps4?

heponatnokto-Today at 10:09 AM

maybe, but let me remind you that dks3 invasion system favours hosts with white phantoms over everybody lese

else

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:09 AM

hey

heponatnokto-Today at 10:09 AM

and so a person making a build there

will never get invaded

because if you are just speedrunning through the game to make a build for pvp

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:10 AM

there isn't going to be a group of people in every single area 24/7

you can invade lone hosts

heponatnokto-Today at 10:10 AM

you can't

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:10 AM

you can..

heponatnokto-Today at 10:10 AM

that isn't how dks3 work

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:10 AM

I frequently invade lone hosts

heponatnokto-Today at 10:10 AM

works

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:10 AM

the invading system FAVOURS squads

heponatnokto-Today at 10:10 AM

lone hosts need to actively invade themselves or use dried fingers

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:10 AM

it doesn't restrict it to squads

what..

heponatnokto-Today at 10:10 AM

otherwise you can stand in an active pvp are

and never get invaded

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:10 AM

Every single perception you seem to have about Dark Souls 3 so far is one that I can attest to seeing and experiencing the opposite on

heponatnokto-Today at 10:10 AM

literally

do an experiment

go to pontiff balcony

and stand there emberred

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:11 AM

pontiff

you mean

gank city

where all the invaders are pulled to

the ganks

heponatnokto-Today at 10:11 AM

pontiff balcony specifically

just stand there

don't summon anybody

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:11 AM

the invaders will be pulled to the ganks yes

heponatnokto-Today at 10:11 AM

don't pop fingers

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:11 AM

but pontiff =! entire game

you fail to understand

heponatnokto-Today at 10:11 AM

and the game will not pull a single invader

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:11 AM

pve occurs through the entire game

heponatnokto-Today at 10:11 AM

pontiff is the most active pvp area

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:12 AM

yes

with the most summoned phantoms

and the most invaders invading ganks

heponatnokto-Today at 10:12 AM

and the invasion system works so that even in the most active pvp area you will never get invaded

you know why?

because the game essentially has infinite cooldown on invasions

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:12 AM

are you ignoring what i'm saying

heponatnokto-Today at 10:12 AM

you need to actively open your game to open yourself up for red orb invasions

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:13 AM

no you don't

heponatnokto-Today at 10:13 AM

you get invaded once

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:13 AM

@[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza It's actually been proven that after you've been invaded (only counting normal, red invaders), you become no longer invadable forever after until you trigger a "can-be-invaded flag" by using an item

heponatnokto-Today at 10:13 AM

and never get invaded ever again

unless you summon/invade/pop fingers

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:13 AM

"can be invaded" including area transition or bonfire, correct?

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:13 AM

Red Eye Orb, Dried Finger, Ember, Way of Blue covenant, or summoning a phantom, I believe will set the flag

heponatnokto-Today at 10:14 AM

this means that a person speedrunning through the game will get invaded once at best

maybe twice

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:14 AM

i've played through the game solo multiple times without dying and still get invaded multiple times

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:14 AM

but if theoretically you play through the whole game never setting that flag, after you've been invaded once you can stand Embered in Pontiff for 24 hours straight and never be invaded

heponatnokto-Today at 10:14 AM

so if you want to make an optimal build, you basically speedrun through ng and ng+

and get ng++ rings

that's it

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:15 AM

oh, no I invade using only NG or NG+ rings usually

heponatnokto-Today at 10:15 AM

we are talking about properly minmaxed optimised pvp builds

@Akari of Sabbath [PS4] get invaded once resets the flag

so it doesn't matter

you get invaded once

and you never get invaded ever again

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:17 AM

In any case you're alikening the "competitive scene" of PvP exactly to the Smogon community in Pokemon, they do the same thing and play in a battle simulator instead of in-game

and, something like that is just not "legit"

heponatnokto-Today at 10:17 AM

i am likening it to previous souls games

like dark souls 1 and dark souls 2 and demon's souls

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:18 AM

what, using CE?

Yes, but that in no way invalidates my point

heponatnokto-Today at 10:18 AM

using CE and mules is the rational thing to do

since it cuts on time problems

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:18 AM

It's still cheating.

heponatnokto-Today at 10:19 AM

it isn't, fights done with a muled/CEed build are exactly the same

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:19 AM

In Monster Hunter you gotta grind for that ultra-endgame armor you want (another game I don't play but I at least know that much)

It doesn't matter what the game is, what the context

heponatnokto-Today at 10:19 AM

more over, ability to cheat those builds in allows for much easier time minmaxing the build

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:20 AM

There's a legit way to play and there's a non-legit way

Gank squads are not breaking the rules of the game; they might be "griefing" but they are at least not illegitimate

heponatnokto-Today at 10:20 AM

is there any advantage to a cheat engined sl120 +10 weapons upgrade compared to the exact same build made legitimately(edited)

the answer is no

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:21 AM

It doesn't matter if there is an advantage or not

If, theoretically, there were no such thing as CE,

and I made an endgame PvP build the legit way,

then I've earned the right to play with that build.

heponatnokto-Today at 10:22 AM

it absolutely does matter if there is an advantage or not

that's the thing which matters

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:22 AM

People who have it given to them through other means haven't earned it, they don't deserve it

This is my opinion of course

Once again you're inconsolable

Toraso-Today at 10:22 AM

"earned it"

what

heponatnokto-Today at 10:22 AM

what

Toraso-Today at 10:22 AM

we're talking about competitiveness

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:22 AM

We're coming completely from different perspectives and backgrounds

Toraso-Today at 10:23 AM

not some quality of earning the right to play a game

heponatnokto-Today at 10:23 AM

yes, we are coming from a perspective is interested in the games mechanics and the way it plays

more specifically a competitive perspective

there is also speedrunning/challenge perspective

but dks3 has problems there too

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:24 AM

Yes, and you're trying to lecture someone who finds joy and depth in invasions instead of duels, that your way is better than hers

heponatnokto-Today at 10:24 AM

it is the most boring game in the series to speedrun with the least depth in that regard

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:24 AM

I literally couldn't care less

heponatnokto-Today at 10:24 AM

the game has problems there too

you finding joy doesn't make you fucking good at the game

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:24 AM

As far as I'm concerned this whole thing started because you personally insulted me

You consider me a skilless, pointless waste of space in the community

Your ideal community is one without me in it

That is what you have communicated to me over close to two hours

heponatnokto-Today at 10:26 AM

i stated the fact about how you delusionaly consider yourself good at the game despite the fact that you have only fought pve'rs and gankers

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:26 AM

The exact words I said were "skilled at invading"

heponatnokto-Today at 10:26 AM

skilled at beating up babies

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:26 AM

and for that matter yes I do believe I am good at the game

heponatnokto-Today at 10:27 AM

wo

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:27 AM

Not great, but good

heponatnokto-Today at 10:27 AM

wow

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:27 AM

99% of players in general are bad

heponatnokto-Today at 10:27 AM

what a nice skillset

Zinogre (Moryl)-Today at 10:27 AM

Salt levels

Keep them chill.

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:27 AM

i like salt

Zinogre (Moryl)-Today at 10:27 AM

Just a friendly reminder.

heponatnokto-Today at 10:27 AM

beating up pve players and gankers requires so much skill

yeah

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:27 AM

Thank you Zinogre

[Xb1] Bloodshade Reid/Janza-Today at 10:27 AM

i don't recall akari saying "i exclusively fight pvers and gankers"

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:27 AM

THANK YOU

Dark Souls 3's PvP has depth

heponatnokto-Today at 10:28 AM

you do invasions, thus most of your fights and experience comes from fighting incredibly bad players who are clueless

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:28 AM

It might not be its mechanics, specifically

but, its PvP scene has depth

heponatnokto-Today at 10:29 AM

even if you had experiences against good players

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:29 AM

I have lived it

heponatnokto-Today at 10:29 AM

there wasn't nearly enough of experience for you to get good at the game

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:29 AM

You're wrong

You're simply flat-out wrong

You will never, not be wrong about this

I don't have to prove anything to anyone

I'm a skilled invader, I'm a good player, I love the depth of Dark Souls 3's PvP scene, and you are wrong

It would be funny, if it weren't downright tragic and a grim reminder of the very things I stand against

heponatnokto-Today at 10:31 AM

this level of mental gymnastics is impressive

Akari of Sabbath [PS4]-Today at 10:32 AM

I'm grateful. The more you spend around the twitch-streamed tournaments instead of here, the better

and if I ever stream, you're not invited. I choose not to surround myself with sources of pungent toxicity and elitism

Bloodshade Cav [XB1]-Today at 10:33 AM

"the very things i stand against"