1974 Interview with Rudy Maxa of the Washington Post

Interview Transcript - Part 5

QUIGLEY: “...because they tried to change the French Revolution from a middle class,

bourgeois, capitalist revolution -- constitutional revolution -- into a communist

revolution. Now Buonarroti is also the founder of the Carbonari, of which Mazzini

was the head in the 1840s, which united Italy in the 1860s. Do you see? So, as,

if you start with Buonarroti, which as far as I can see is 1893 and 189-, eh,

1793, 1794, I think you can trace a connection down through these various secret

societies which culminate in the, uh, Mazzini Carbonari. For example. Uh.

Eh, Iʼll tell you one thing.”

INTERVIEWER: “O.K..”

QUIGLEY: “Italy was able to get free from Austria because, only because France defeated

Austria. Why did France do that? Nobody can see why. It wasnʼt in Franceʼs

interest. And yet France declared war in 1859 on Austria and at the battle[s] of

Magenta and Solferino defeated, and suddenly made a peace treaty with [Austria],

without freeing all of Italy. And the reason, we are told, that they suddenly made

the peace treaty without, is because the king, the king, the emperor, this is

Napoleon III, was so sickened by the sight of the blood. Do you see? Now,

why did he do this? He did this because in 1868 [actually, 1858] a Carbonaro

threw a bomb at him. This Carbonaro was arrested, executed. But before he was

executed, the Emperor went to his cell, as I understand it, and the Carbonaro

gave him the secret sign of a fellow Carbonaro, because, eh, the emperor of

France in the, who became, was elected president of France in 1848, seized the

throne in ʼ51 [actually, he seized power in ʻ51, the throne in ʻ52] and

proclaimed a new Napoleonic Empire, and was overthrown by the Germans in ʼ71,

so he was the emperor for -- uh, [in] ʻ70, really -- for twenty years. Do you see?”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “But he had been a refugee from France, because he tried to make a revolt in

France, I think it was [in] 1829 [actually, 1836].”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “And as a refugee, he joined the Carbonari secret society [actually, he had joined

many years earlier].”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “Furthermore, he was a, he was a private policeman in the Chartrist march on

Parliament in London in 1848, the year he in which he was elected president of

France. Heʼs a mysterious figure. Do you see?”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “So, what Iʼm summing up is this: I do think there was probably a continuous

sequence of secret societies from Buonarroti -- [the] ʻBaboo, Babeuf conspiracyʼ,

which is 1894, or ʻ95 [actually, 1794, or ʻ95] -- through the Carbonari unification of

Italy, which would be ʼ61, 1861. I cannot see anything since then. It may exist.

I havenʼt really studied it.”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “But I cannot see any connection between the Masons and the Illuminati,”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “Founded in Bavaria in 1776 And I canʼt see any connection between them and

Ba--, and, uh, Buonarroti.”

INTERVIEWER: “Well, now.”

QUIGLEY: “Well, now thatʼs what these people are saying is all one.”

INTERVIEWER: “All right.”

QUIGLEY: “And some of them say it goes back to Noah building the ark. [chuckles]”

INTERVIEWER: “Well. One thing that seems to me that, uh, uh, the conspiracy theory of history

is appealing because [itʼs] mono-simple.”

QUIGLEY: “Itʼs so simple.”

INTERVIEWER: “It explains everything thatʼs unexplainable. And...”

QUIGLEY: “Thatʼs going wrong.”

INTERVIEWER: “If you raise one point that doesnʼt fit, they say ʻAh, see how clever

the conspiracy is.ʼ”

QUIGLEY: “Yes. Now.”

INTERVIEWER: “They, they.”

QUIGLEY: ““Yes. I want to show you something. This is what they start [with].

They start by showing you a one dollar bill.”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “And they say ʻWhy is there a trian-, pyramid, with an eye over it?ʼ Do you see?

This is the symbol of the secret society. Now, if you ask people...”

INTERVIEWER: “Which secret society? Any secret society?”

QUIGLEY: “The secret society, because according to them thereʼs only one. You see?”

QUIGLEY: “According to them.”

INTERVIEWER: “The secret society thatʼs gone through generations. Through...”

QUIGLEY: “Yes, yes. Now, if you ask the United States Government why it is there.

They have great difficulty explaining. And they mostly come up with

ʻItʼs, eh, itʼs the Masons, the Masonic symbol.ʼ But then when you say

ʻWhy should the Mason symbol be on the American dollar bill?ʼ.

And they have no explanation. So there is something. If you look

at this monument in Alexandria to Washington. It is the pyramid.”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “You see, you know. Now the eye over it is the light. You see. So, uh,

I could go further into this, but wonʼt have to, because this symbol is at least, uh,

six thousand years old. And I can give you the history of it [from]

four thousand B.C. And it has nothing to do with the Masons.”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “Now, maybe the Masons adopted it, you see. But it has nothing...

But I will not go into that. Thatʼs a totally different story.”

INTERVIEWER: “O.K. So this man from Nevada, this person from Nevada called.”

QUIGLEY: “Called me up.

And said they were having a hard time with the anti-semites using this book

[ʻNone Dare Call It Conspiracyʼ] as an argument against Wall Street,

against bankers, against Jews, against the Communists, and everything else.

And they wanted me to debate, with this fellow whoʼd gotten in touch with me,

who was a professor at the university.”

INTERVIEWER: “Who believes this?”

QUIGLEY: ”Eh. Oh, no, he doesnʼt believe it. He was trying to get rid of it.

The same way the fellow who called me from Brigham Young was trying

to stop this hysteria which was sweeping that mountain area, apparently.”

INTERVIEWER: “Right.”

QUIGLEY: “And so they said ʻWould you debate, uh, Gary Allen and Larry Abraham?ʼ

And, uh, I said ʻWell, Iʼd rather not, franklyʼ. ʻBut we need you help.ʼ

And I said ʻWell, are they both going to be debating me?ʼ They said

ʻNo, there a Dr. So-and-So here, who will, uh, debate with you.ʼ And he is, I think,

a medical doctor. Iʼm not certain of that. But he was Jewish.

And, what he was interested in was the the anti-semitism part in this.”

INTERVIEWER: “He was going to debate on your team, on your side?”

QUIGLEY: “By my side. And they said ʻItʼs going to be absolutely the strictest thing.ʼ

Weʼd be on the air for an hour. Weʼd be hooked up on telephone, uh,

through the country. ʻI will be the coordinator,ʼ said this fellow, of this.

ʻAnd it will be rigorous. You will, must stay on the subject, or I will stop you.

There must be no personality attacks, or I will stop you. You can each talk

for ten minutes [I think it is, or five minutes it could have been]ʼ.

And ʻthen, when each of the four has talked (I think it was for ten minutes),

then each will have the right to have a five minute rebuttalʼ, or something,

you see.”

INTERVIEWER: "Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “Now, in the course of it, I soon discovered that Gary Allen didnʼt know

up from down. But Larry A...”

INTERVIEWER: “Who...”

QUIGLEY: “No. But Larry Abraham was immensely well informed.

He knew all about corporations, finance and bankers, and who were

their partners. He know. Heʼs tremendous. I...”

INTERVIEWER: “How did you find out? From talking with people?”

QUIGLEY: “I found out from the debate.”

INTERVIEWER: “Oh, O.K. Thatʼs what I was going to ask. You did go to the debate?”

QUIGLEY: “Yeah. Gary Allen just repeated everything thatʼs in here [ʻTragedy and Hopeʼ].

Uh, when I put in my rebuttal, and said these various things, he [Abram[s]]

then started pulling in this information, I mean, some of it Iʼve never heard of.

Now, I donʼt know everything. And the new book thatʼs out now, published

by the Buckley, I guess it itʼs the Bill Buckley, press, Arlington House

(I suppose it is Bill Buckley, Iʼm not sure of that) called ʼThe Bolsheviks and Wall

Street.ʼ Oh, we got to go to lunch. ʻThe Bolsheviks and Wall Streetʼ has lots of

things in there that I donʼt, didnʼt know.”

INTERVIEWER: “Uh, huh.”

QUIGLEY: “Stop this. Now, I, uh, I talked, told you that. Do you want to put [that]

down there?”

INTERVIEWER: ”Yeah.”

QUIGLEY: “All right. I generally would think that any conspiracy theory of history is nonsense.

For the simple reason that most of the conspiracies that we know about

seem to me to be the conspiracies of losers. Of people who have been defeated

on the platform, letʼs say, the historical platform of the public happenings.

The Ku Klux Klan was the, uh... Their arguments and their, uh, point of view

had been destroyed, and defeated, in the Civil War. Well, because

theyʼre not prepared to accept that, they form a conspiracy, you see,

to fight against it in an underground way. And, those people who could fight,

up in the open, do so. Those who canʼt, go underground. It seems to me

this is essentially what [is] conspiracy. The Palestinian Liberation Army

is a similar thing, you see. Now I think on the whole theyʼre pretty well a group

who, uh, has not got really very much, uh. And so, they have to be terrorists.

And...”

INTERVIEWER: “If I could play the Devilʼs Advocate, I think, you, [with] talking about the

ʻinternational banking conspiracyʼ, they have not lost out,

they simply donʼt want any attention. They donʼt want to...”

QUIGLEY: “Oh, I Thatʼs...