Robert Thurman, the first American to become an ordained Tibetan Buddhist monk, is Buddhist scholar and acclaimed translator into English of complex Tibetan Buddhist literature, including the Vimalakirti Sutra and Tsongkhapa’s ‘Essence of Eloquence’. He is cofounder and president of Tibet House, New York and teaches Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia University. During his recent India visit, he interacted with Narayani Ganesh in New Delhi:

You look much younger than your 76 years. Does meditation have anti-ageing properties?

Undoubtedly! Buddhist medical tradition runs parallel with the Brahmanical one, like Ayurveda. The word Ayu, as in Ayurveda, refers to long life. Buddhist medicine was very prevalent in India as it was more accessible to everyone whereas Brahmins would not treat low castes nor touch excreta. But Tibetan doctors would do urine analysis, examine the smell, consistency, even the taste, sometimes, to know the condition.

My theory is that good health is being in joy, in bliss. People who get depressed or anxious tend to age faster. Bliss is more than equanimity; it is when the cells and microorganisms in your body are friendly and happy. When a mean one comes along, either they make him relax, or send him away. Mental state is critical for health. Buddhist medicine is very helpful here. In Hinduism, the bhakti side is very strong, like they are with Krishna; love is good for health.

You are married now for 53 years to Nena. How does the relationship work so well?

I tried to become Nena’s disciple but she hasn’t accepted me yet: She does say though that I have shown improvement over the years! In Indian Tantra and Tibetan too, the female is seen as having more potential, says the Vimalakirti Sutra. In one chapter, goddess Pragya Paramita is scattering flowers, while having a conversation on emptiness and compassion. The monks saw petals on their robes and got upset. The goddess asked why they were shaking their robes. One monk responded, “I’m a monk; I cannot wear flowers.”

And she said, “The flowers are suitable, but your mind is not suitable.” The monk asks, “You are so intelligent, then how come you are in the body of a woman?” And she says, “What are you talking about? I don’t know any body.” She performs magical transformation and he experiences her body as his and she now experiences his body. The monks realise that the body is just an illusion; and that it is they who are prejudiced. The Buddha had said that ultimately, there is no difference.

We have a strong male chauvinist history. His Holiness the Dalai Lama said in Italy once, that since violence is so dangerous with lethal weapons today we need more women leadership. He loves Angela Merkel and Hillary, too.

On the domestic front, it is very important that husband and wife take turns – sometimes do what she wants and at other times do what he wants. One partner can’t have his way all the time.

To aspire to Buddhahood is difficult, isn’t it?

Lots of people can be like the Buddha – you don’t have to leave town, you reach bliss but you can totally still engage with life. You can be many beings at the same time. What to do with those who want to fight and are not part of a monastic order? They go around beating up people in town! Buddhism introduced the shramanic idea that the biggest battle is to conquer your inner enemy and not your external enemy. Lal Mani Joshi wrote that modern Hinduism is a combination of Vedism and Shramanism. And ex-monks apparently make good husbands!

Why did you become a monk and then leave monkhood?

I became a monk against the advice of my original Mongolian Buddhist teacher. I went back from India, I had a job with Freda Bedi in Dalhousie. She was married to a Sikh (Kabir Bedi is her son). She had a school for young nuns in Dalhousie; she gave me a job. Then my father died after a heart attack in New York. I met the Mongolian monk and studied one or two years with him in New Jersey. I kept badgering him to become a monk. I had parted ways with wife by then and had been living like a monk for a year. I was a fanatic. So he took me to meet the Dalai Lama. In ten weeks, I was speaking Tibetan: I have been good in languages. I never liked the English alphabet. Abcdefg has no rhyme or reason. Ka kha ga gha na – now that is logical. Tibetan script is close to Sanskrit.

I became friends with the Dalai Lama. He sent me to his senior teachers and observed me. I was very sincere. Finally, against all advice, he let me embrace monkhood. (He was only 29-years-old and had not been to the West). During the mid-60s I went back to America, and became a civil rights activist what with the Vietnam War and so on. My Mongolian teacher said, “See, I told you not to become a monk!” I left the monkhood. You know we didn’t even have Hare Krishna in the airports those days; all that came later.

I owe a great deal to the Tibetan tradition. Then I met my wife. Ex-model and ex-monk. Just imagine. (chuckles).

Didn’t you once say that we are a complex nexus of inter-relatedness, so there is nothing to do but improve?

There was this Zen Master who said, yes of course, everything is perfect, but there is always a little room for improvement! People understand non-duality as meaning you have a big experience where you sort of disappear, you have a feeling of release from activity. That means a permanent state of separation from the world. But people don’t understand we can sit here like this and enjoy ourselves and still feel that kind of release.

I think there are two kinds of nirvana – the cheap one and the expensive one. The cheap one is, nobody is there, you get Paramatma, no one else is there to bother you. The expensive one is that you are One and everybody is still there, and they are, unlike you, dealing with the universe and you are OK, so you have to help them.

The first noble truth, says His Holiness, is that the real thing that Buddha discovered is nirvana, not suffering. So if you don’t find the nature of reality, which is bliss, then you will keep suffering. The happiness of a person who is separated from everything is indestructible. Suffering is of the unenlightened life. So you will have more fun if you understand this. That’s why I say, Buddhas have more fun!