Krystian Woznicki on Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:32:56 +0100 (MET)



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<nettime> Evangelion

To: Nettime-l@Desk.nl

Subject: <nettime> Evangelion

From: Krystian Woznicki <zuck@shrine.cyber.ad.jp>

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 01:15:18 +0900 (JST)

Sender: owner-nettime-l@basis.Desk.nl

TOWARDS A CARTOGRAPHY OF JAPANESE ANIME Anno Hideaki's >>Evangelion<<. Interview with Azuma Hiroki by Krystian Woznicki for BLIMP Filmmagazine [33 281 Characters] Since 1984, there have been only three major anime directors who deserve intellectual/artistic appreciation: Hayao Miyazaki, Katsuhiro Otomo and Mamoru Oshii. Remarkably, and this is perhaps most important and symptomatic here, these three (especially Miyazaki and Oshii) seem to have had to detach their imagination away from typical "anime" images or narratives, as for example, mechanical gimmicks (=mechas) or pretty girls, in order to lift their works on a new level of cultural acceptance. Miyazaki's TV anime series >>Conan<< (78) and the first long film >>Lupin the 3rd : The Castle of Cariostro<< (79) received otaku's enthusiastic support. It should be remarked that Miyazaki's appeal in those days largely depended on his originally-designed mechas and girls as well as his skillful narratives. The heroin of >>Lupin the 3rd : the Castle of Cariostro<< is said to be an origin of the otaku's particular fetishism of anime characters. However, Miyazaki seems to have changed his strategy gradually during 80-86. >>Nausikaa<<(84), the first anime film which succeeded in gathering interests from outside closed otaku circles, can be considered a result of this change. His detachment from otaku-culture was completed when >>Tonari No Totoro<< was released in 86. This film contained no mechas nor pretty girls, but merely typical fantasy images. Miyazaki's work, just as he had intended, actually received broader welcome as "popular (=major, that is, socially recognized) cinema" and won several prizes. Otomo Katsuhiro was originally a comic author. Since his manga was already internationally appreciated, he was able to produce the film>>Akira<< (86) comparatively separated from anime's general situation in the 80's. Correctly speaking, >>Akira<< is an animation, but not an anime. Oshii Mamorou's TV anime series >>Urusei-yatsura<<(81-8) was famous for both its cult appeal to otaku culture (absurd SF plot, pretty girls, queer-designed mechas, images borrowed from Japanese folk stories) and his approach as a director being influenced by 70's Japanese underground theater (for example, Shuji Terayama). He frequently experimented using abstract images, fast cut- ups, (seemingly) philosophical conversations or overactive movements of characters, to deconstruct ordinary anime patterns. We can say that Oshii in the early 80's took an ambiguous role towards anime as a genre; he was the most "otaku" Anime director while, at the same time, the most severe and intrinsic critic of otaku culture. His film >>Urusei-Yatsura 2: A Beautiful Dreamer<<(84) is a meta-fiction anime, and often referred to as the film where Oshii's double strategy was the most successful. After finishing this film/TV series, he started to produce experimental animation films , or non-animated SF films. He returned to directing anime in 1986 but this time he intended to make more serious and intellectual animation, eliminating childish "services" which filled typical animes. >>Patlabor 2 : The Movie<< (93) and >>Ghost in the Shell<< (96) are the results of this change. Considering the general anime situation in later 80's (that is, closed, totally "fanzin"inzed situation; especially after the distribution system of OAV -- original animation videos --- was established, all animators indulging in the financial freedom to produce stereo-typical animes for particular/ marginalized fans without seeking any broader acceptance), Miyazaki and Oshii's change, which also manifested itself in a kind of hate towards anime fans seems totally justified. Nevertheless, it is also true that they lost a lot of appeal compared to their early 80's work. In addition, we also should note that Miyazaki, Otomo and Oshii's similarity in attempting to make animation closer to real films seems to stem from their common detestation of the anime genre ("genre" here means no typical images or narratives but distribution system, fan's acceptance and so on. Miyazaki and Oshii intended to separate themselves from both anime works and anime distributions). It is very ironical that almost all the best results of Japanese animation come from such a (pseudo)self-hatred. Besides these three directors' works we can only find some childish/fetishized animes approved by international otakus (a typical example is >>Sailor Moon<<). If broken down, we could say that two aspects about Anno Hideaki 's >>Evangelion<<are crucial in this context. In the first place >>Evangelion<< contains not only mechas and pretty girls but many kind of otaku "services." Anno borrowed or sometimes parodied innumerable images from 70 - 80's Japanese animes, SF films or comics as for example the protagonist father's uniform is obviously designed as a parody of the costume aesthetic in >>Space Battleship Yamato<<(74). Gainax (formerly Daicon Film) started its career by making parody anime films in a typical "postmodern" manner. >>Evangelion<< succeeds in using a lot of otaku clichs, only to inverse their functions: For example, such comical characters as Asuka or Toji must not be seriously injured in an ordinary anime. Anno intendedly breaks such kind of implicit expectation/regulation. This attitude towards anime as a genre, in criticizing it, seems to oppose Miyazaki's or Oshii's eliminative strategy. (Maybe, in part, it is rather close to Oshii's early 80's work). As Anno himself remarks, in >>Evangelion<< he does not want to make animation film closer to real films. Instead, he attempts to make the most of anime's abstractness (which results from an unavoidable limit of information's quantity in one frame). The narrative devices in >>Evangelion<< and their metaphorical meanings should receive our entire attention here. Especially Anno's use of angels as an abstract enemy should deserve our entire attention here: >>Evangelion<< tells the story of three children unreluctantly entrusted with saving their city (if not the world) from aliens, which neither can be identified, nor in their intention be understood. Then, there is Rei Ayanami, who represents a new image/type of child's solitude (which can neither be reduced to Otaku nor Ko-girl). Together with Shinji and Asuka, we see her on sunny school days' mornings, while miles under the city an artificially created urban infrastructure, their working place, is the downward spiral into the realm of government conspiracies and military research strategists: Tokyo 3 in the year 2015. by Azuma Hiroki : Krystian Woznicki SOMETHING LIKE ANIME Krystian Woznicki: So Anno changed the original plot of the story when he saw the news about the invasion of Aum's hide out by the police. Did he change it because it was too close to reality? Azuma Hiroki: Yes, he said so. KW: But did why he change it? What is the problem with >>Evangelion<< being so close to the Aum case? AH: Anno thought that the original scenario will not be suitable for broadcasting. KW: So he feared censorship. AH: A kind of censorship. But this is very typical of the anime situation. TV animations are supposed to be seen by youngsters under 15, 16 years old. And I think, if it this wasn't the case, then Anno would have thought that its obvious similarity with the reality would decrease >>Evangelion's<<imaginative potential. But anyway, the original scenario is so shockingly close to the political motivation of the Aum Shinrikyo group, they fight against the upshot of the enemy, without knowing what the enemy really is. The angels change their form for example into pyramids, into shadows. I asked Anno about such abstract characteristics of the angels. He said that this reflects the feelings of his generation. For his generation the enemy is not political. It is also not definite. I mentioned to Anno that such abstract characteristics of the enemy are very close to the conception of Aum as enemy (e.g. poison gas) which he admitted. He also admitted the similarity of >>Evangelion<< with Aum. Nevertheless it is too simple to conclude that Anno was sympathetic with Aum. He emphasizes the closedness and exclusiveness of this group. They lost any contact with reality. In Anno's view this again is very close to the situation of anime fans. In fact >>Evangelion<< criticizes anime fans, and anime culture: it begins with ambiguous flirtations with conditions central to Aum, and ends with its critique as launched on the situation of anime fans. KW: Why do you think that Evangelion's flirtations with the Aum case are so essential to its "cultural meaning"? AH: As you may know there was this particular case with Oe Kenzaburo. He is said to have been surprised when Nihon Seki Gun [Japanese Red Army] got Assama Sanso Jiken: in 1972 the Japanese Red Army stayed in a house close to Mount Asama. They fought with the Japanese police and army. This affair was very close to the novel >>Kozui wa waga tamashii ni oyobi<< which Oe Kenzaburo wrote and wanted to publish at that time. However Oe had to change the plot as it was too close to reality. The original plot is said to have been partly changed. Although I am not sure that Anno is comparable to with Oe, it seems unquestionable that he is one of the smartest storytellers in Japanese culture of the 90's. KW: But do you really think that the parallels to Aum are characteristic of, or say, unique about >>Evangelion<<? For instance the case you just mentioned has occurred in various cases of recent film productions e.g. in the case of Fukui Shojin's >>Rubber's Lover<< whose production goes back to 1992 and which shortly after Aum came to fruition. Out of the fear to provoke misreadings Fukui changed some parts, as he feared those to be mistaken for a sympathetic account of Aum. >>Rubber's Lover<< is, on various levels, permeated with an ambiguous critique of Aum, such as their concept of the self, enlightenment through isolation, etc. >>Angel Dust<< made about two years before Aum happend describes certain conditions that became dominant in the Aum phenomena: again isolation, brain-washing, extortion. But the aspect of circulation, as it is linked to the mode of reception is perhaps unique about >>Evangelion<< and on this level also comparable with Oe's case: >>Evangelion<< was broadcasted at 6:30 p.m. in the afternoon on a major channel, reaching millions of people whereas the films just mentioned are usually seen by a limited audience. By the way, how popular was Oe at that time? AH: I think that he was even more popular than he is now. But I admit that the closeness to Aum is not the privilege of >>Evangelion<<. The point is that >>Evangelion<< is an intrinsic critique of Aum. Anno's career is so close to that of Aum. The Anime fan is the typical type of Japanese otaku. The Aum affair tackled the cultural territory of the Otaku. KW: The film makers just named are on this level not really comparable with Anno. Although they can be said to furnish certain otaku tastes/preferences Japanese independent film is just not the media of this major youth cultural movement. AH: The problem with Otaku is not that they are underground but major and at the same time completely closed, "anti-social" and isolated. Their number is very high... KW: ...and they are "alone but not lonely." (laughs) AH: I think that this phenomenon is very new in Japanese cultural scene of the 80's: the multiplication in number does not mean that they socialize and get open. Anno is very conscious about such closeness. In other interviews [mit einschlaegigen Animemagazinen] he says that in the beginning of making >>Evangelion<< he wanted to enlarge the number of otaku. It was some kind of master plan for "otakuzation" in order to break the closedness. But towards the end [of the production process] he had to break that pattern and to diffuse it. This change, that occurred in less than half a year is very important to Japanese culture, because it clearly shows that one typical strategy to implode a closed/specialzed cultural terrain necesserily results in failure. The series >>Evangelion<< can be divided in 2 parts. The first part is a well made Sci-Fi anime. The characters are described as happy and communicative; typical Sci-Fi anime characters such as Asuka. Rei is of course very exceptional. The first part seems to develop into a happy ending, which is of course the most desirable plot for anime fans. The way they watch these films is a process of identifying with the characters. They want to be Shinji or Asuka. But the later part diverges from such a typical pattern. The reviews and comments of Anime fans published in their respective magazines show their disappointment with the later episodes, since there is no hope for a happy ending and no space for their identification with characters. The mystery of the >>Evangelion<< world gets increasingly critical and complicated. This is obviously not a typical Anime plot anymore. Another level is the level of imagery. The speed of cut ups is very high towards the end. When I asked Anno about influences he did not mention Nouvelle Vague, although I expected him to say Godard. He named Okamoto Kihachi, a filmmaker of the Japanese Nouvelle Vague, who was actually influenced by Godard. KW: How did Okamoto "import" Godard's innovations? AH: I asked a film critic, who also appreciated >>Evangelion<<. He said that the speed of cut ups is way faster than in Okamoto; in that sense is Anno closer to Godard. In the beginning the cut ups are not recognizable as such, which underscores `the expectations of Anime fans, who prefer and seemingly can only enjoy a rather linear narrative. In episode 19 Evangelion punches the enemy, the black Evangelion. This scene is very violent and brutal. Such cruel imagery cannot be accepted by Anime fans. KW: Was there a controversy about this particular scene? AH: Anno didn't speak about this issue clearly. He just said that somebody made a claim. TV producers, advertisers, ... I don't know. It seems a delicate matter. The later half of >>Evangelion<< is diviated from the typical Anime on the level of both, narration and imagery. In this sense is >>Evangelion<< also a critique of conventional TV animation as it has been cultivated until now. KW: How does >>Evangelion<< relate to the >>Akira<< type of Anime, which can be reduced to imagery, visual components only? AH: I asked Anno about that and his answer was very clear. Animations such as directed by Otomo >>Akira<< and Oshii >>Ghost in the Shell<< are becoming more and more obsessed with drawing a deluge of details into one frame. Anno's style is completely different. KW: In Anno there is a remarkable shift towards reduction. The imagery is very simplistic, yet sophisticated. AH: Instead of multiplying information within one frame, Anno does multiply information by the speed and rhythm of cut ups. In Anno the information included in one frame is very limited. KW: Sometimes we see a static image for 30 to 90 seconds or so. Sometimes there is a minimal, mechanical movement on the vertical, horizontal axis within this basically static image such as the descending movement of escalators on which people have "serious" conversations. The static mechanicalness recalls the beginnings of this genre where stories are narrated verbally to a large degree. AH: A static image followed by fast, almost shocking cut ups is so characteristic for Anno. To him Otomo and Oshii's style is very limited due to technical reasons. TV animators always work under difficult conditions. Either there is a lack of time or man power. This may also explain Anno's decision to work "simplistic." The type of animation as pursued by Otomo and Oshii cannot be a counterpart to film, since it is basically impossible for animators to come up with more information per frame as are dispersed in those of a movie. Pursuing this direction Anime cannot develop its original potential. KW: On the one hand it seems that they are trying to come closer and closer to what movies show, in other words, to imitate the representational potential of celluloid productions. Look for instance at >>Magnetic Rose<<, Morimoto's episode in Otomo's >>Memories<< which reminds me so much of the last stage in Kubrick's >>2001<<: techno Sci Fi meets baroque and rococo. In >>Magnetic Rose<< this ground is revisited. The character's (all Western physiognomies) and the environment are drawn very realistically. On the other hand there are things that can not occur in reality; bizarre characters, imagery spaces,... AH: But even this can't be the potential of Anime. Look at Hollywood's recent attempt to introduce computer graphics into the process of film making, leaving a lot of space for fantasy... KW: That's an interesting correspondence. AH: The correspondence between Hollywood and Japanese anime/manga is another interesting story, but there were so many, many cases like this: for example, it is known that James Cameron's >>T2<< was influenced by the manga >>Kiseijyu<<. Again, this was not the potential of Japanese Anime. In my view Anno opened up this potential. You know, he uses very stereo-typical characters in >>Evangelion<< such as Shinji, Asuka, Misato, although Rei is very exceptional, no doubt. He succeeds in using these stereo-typical characters [no facial particularities, no individual characteristics] by describing the 90's. I was so surprised to see >>Evangelion<< because... you know Murakami Ryu... KW: Anno likes Murakami? AH: He likes >>Ai to Gensso no Fashism<< [The Fascism of Love and Fantasy]. KW: Yeah, exactly that novel because he uses the same names for Shinji's school friends as Murakami did in this novel. AH: However Anno is most interested in the character that is named Zero. Maybe Rei is Zero, as "rei" in Japanese means actually zero/0. But anyway what I wanted to say is that Murakami published a new novel called >>Virus<<. This novel is not very interesting, but the point is that the virus is introduced as enemy, as abstract enemy but materialistic. Materialistic but abstract, this double character is very important to Murakami and to almost all contemporary writers. As you know Anno's angels have such double character. You can see that the angels get the form of a virus in some of the episodes. >>Evangelion<< describes the concept of the enemy in the 90's Japanese situation, such as Aum. In the 90's the Japanese complain about things getting worse and worse in economy and society, etc. Many have a very critical feeling about the Japanese situation, while they can not trace the source of this development. Their feelings circulate in vain, without identifying what/who the enemy is. This condition is well described in >>Evangelion<<. KW: There are so many mysteries in this Anime. My impression is that Anno constructed the story by implanting a deluge of details and sub-stories in order to confuse the regular Anime viewer, who usually sets out to follow and interpret the plot on all levels. AH: In my opinion Anno began >>Evangelion<< with the idea to solve all mysterious points finally. I think he changed his mind in the middle. He decided not to solve the mysteries, but to multiply them, which would be another way of criticizing the viewing habits of his audience. As all this may seem very intellectual I have to say that Anno's intellectual tradition (and I have a very strong impression about Anno being intellectual) does not coincide with the intellectual movements of the 80's such New Aka. ANNO'S EARLY YEARS KW: Did you see >>Nadia<<? AH: Yes, but I don't think that it is so interesting. Talking about his previous works... In the 80's, when Anno was 25, 26 he and his friends made >>Honneamise <<, Gainax 's [Anno's production team] first animation film, which was not directed by Anno. Anime fans were very disappointed about that because they couldn't find any beautiful girl. Gainax's second work, the first animation film directed by Anno, was a typical Anime video called >>Top o nerae<<. It was made for Otaku : filled with stereotypical features appreciated by Otaku. To Anno the making of this Anime was very ironical... so he uses the word irony. His second work, >>Nadia<<, was ordered by TV producers [NHK]. It was such a "scandal." They wanted Gainax to make the TV version of >raketa<. In 1984 Miyazaki Hayao made >Laputa<, which was an action comedy. KW: What's the main character? AH: The main characters are children. A12, 13 year old boy and girl respectively. A very fantastic Sci Fi world, based on >>Gulliver's Travel<<. In the fourth chapter Gulliver describes a fictional world, a fictional country that moves in the sky with the help of some mystical, technological power. In Miyazaki's film this element is central and reappears. >>Nadia<< was supposed to be the TV version of it, and on top of it, rendered with Miyazaki's taste. Of course, Anno disliked this idea. He wanted to do an original work, but it was impossible to do that within the framework of this assignment. For example, he could not create any cruel scene. After that he decided to make an independent film with Gainax. KW: Could you just speak more about his background? How would he for instance get such a big assignment [with NHK]? He obviously wasn't completely underground at that time. AH: In fact Anno's young years are very exceptional. Together with Gainax, he was a sort of elite of Japanese animation. Early 80's they formed an amateur group, when they were in their very early 20's; 21, 22. The group was called Daikon Film. Daikon stands for >Osaka Sci Fi Convention<. It was a convention for science fiction fans. It was a forum for amateur animation. At that time there was avery close relationship between science fiction and animation. Anno's group was called Daikon Film because he was asked to make the opening film for this convention. That was in 81, 82. Daikon Film did two films for the >Osaka Sci Fi Convention<; first for its third and than for its fourth convention. The second film won the >>Animage<< Grand Prix, although they were amateurs. Then, Daikon Film and the producer of the convention, Okada Toshio, then about 26, got together, in order to start a professional group which came to be Gainax. He left Gainax about 2,3 years ago because of some difference in direction. Okada is a critic now. The unconventional character of >>Evangelion's<< latter part very much contradicts Okada's point of view. KW: Did he say something about >>Evangelion<<? AH: As I heard, during a meeting with fans Okada said that he did not see >>Evangelion<<. (laughs) KW: That's a clear statement. AH: Sure, but you have to understand that his complicated relationship with Gainax also makes it difficult for him to comment upon it. KW: Let's come back to Anno's career. AH: When he was 24 Anno, Gainax made a pilot film and some scenarios for a commercial series. Bandai commissioned that film and promised to pay 800 Million Yen to Gainax for their next film, which was >>Honneamis<<. Bandai totally supported that film and Gainax was able to invite Sakamoto Ryuichi to make the soundtrack. Bandai showed >>Honneamis<< as a world premier in New York. I saw it as a junior high school student. This film, however, failed completely. It was very shocking to Gainax and they decided to regroup some ideas. Until then they wanted to make classically intellectual anime. They changed into more conventional Otaku anime, which were produced by Okada. At that time they began to produce computer software. The most successful result was a software called >>Princess Maker<<, which was a sort of simulation soft, in which you can educate a girl. The final goal within this program for instance is marriage. You could chose to make your daughter a scientist, designer, or a "naughty girl". Many choices. In 1981 this software was a big hit. People seemed to enjoy the idea to have a sort of a fictive, personal toy-girl. It was strictly Otaku business. Then another turn occurs. Anno went to his hometown and is asked about his profession. He was very ashamed to say that he was an anime director as his output was mainly commercial. There was nothing he could be proud of. Anno was very frustrated, and came up with the plan to make >>Evangelion<<. KW: What else has he been doing? AH: Besides their own productions, Gainax was involved in a couple of other projects, including >>Gundam<<, but also >>Nausikaa<<. KW: Miyazaki's >>Nausikaa<<? AH: Yes, the scene of the robot in >>Nausikaa<< called Kyojin-hei [Giant Soldier] was designed by Anno. KW: In >>Nausikaa<< there is also a monster called Oumu [similiar pronounciation to Aum], and the heroine, Nausikaa, can communicate by telepathy. But there is something else, very trivial, very mysterious...(laughs) Nausikaa, is wearing a very short skirt, but no underwear. We always see the skirt flying up... AH: I know. KW: I came into an argument with a friend of mine, who said that she wears skin-colored stockings. What do you think? AH: Of course, you are right. It's a very important point. Now Miyazaki is considered very healthy and adult. His works are suitable to be shown at the school for educational purposes. KW: He is a family anime director. AH: But during the 80's Miyazaki was not received as such. The Dojinshi market is of interest at this juncture. THE DOJINSHI MARKET KW: What is the Dojinshi Market? AH: It's a market of manga. You could call it an independent market, or black market, where self-produced manga is sold. The manga is made of characters copied from manga that can be bought at shops. Copying the characters young people would make up original stories. It all began with a parody of a Miyazaki anime. In 1979 Miyazaki made >>Lupin the 3rd : The Castle of Cariostro<<. The heroine was perceived as a cult character for Otaku. Very pretty, a narrow vest, small lips; an Otaku idol. She is said to be the first person who was parodied by Otaku. In the middle 80's Miyazaki changed his style. He would repress any sexuality. In 1986 he made >>Tonari NoTotoro<<, which was incredibly successful. It made him a major anime director. KW: Talking about the Dojinshi Market, isn't it important that the original character is very simple? Aren't Miyazaki's characters rather difficult to copy? AH: You should not underestimate Dojinshi writer's skills. Most professional comic writer come from the Dojinshi Market. Many producers and editors follow Dojinshi Market trends, where they would pick up some new talents. A friend of mine writes for an erotic magazine on the Dojinshi market. I was very surprised to hear that he sold over 3 000 books. KW: Where can I buy Dojinshi books? AH: There is a regular market held. The largest market is held twice in a year. In 1996 it was held in Ariake in August and in December. Of course we can also buy these books in some underground book store. KW: So there is a distribution network? AH: There are various shops, mostly specializing in manga, which deal with such products. KW: Who produces the books? AH: There is no producer, or say, the artist is his own producer. A friend of mine even lives of that. He produces himself. He pays for his own print. He decides how many books get printed, and he sells them. KW: Is it illegal? AH: No, it's not. There are for instance many books on the Dojinshi Market which parody >>Evangelion<<. Gainax allows it. The committee of the Dojinshi Market, which may consist of some artists, pays a small amount to Gainax as a tribute. The expansion of the market is amazing though. As I just said, my friend sold a couple thousands of his book. A professional writer in the literary field in Japan can not sell so many. KW: How is the relation between the Dojinshi Market and the mainstream anime market? AH: For a 40 pages book a Dojinshi artist could make 3 million. That's amazing. Some artists don't want to become "professionals." KW: How is the case with young upcoming novelists like Shinohara Hajime? AH: Her case is exceptional. About 30, or 40 000 copies of her books get sold. But in generally I am very pessimistic about the future of writers like her and the literature situation in Japan. So few readers... Talking about the deplorable situation of Japanese culture and society in the 80's Genichiro Takahashi, a well known literary author, said that Japanese literature has ceased to produce works that could be said to be new, innovative or simply symptomatic of their time. This is why I was so surprised by >>Evangelion<<: the concept of angels, or the character Rei are very new. As you said before Rei is a typical figure who was oppressed and suffers self-disclosure. 1) KO-GIRL, 2) OTAKU, 3) AYANAMI REI... KW: What is in your view the most specific aspect of Rei's character? AH: Until now there were only two types with the characteristics just mentioned. One is the so-called Ko-girl [ko=baby]. As you know there are so many Japanese high school girls who work as call girls, using technological gadgets for their clothes. Their families are not poor at all; family life is happy, but...They earn a lot of money in the prostitution business, and spend it all on expensive cosmetics and clothes. KW: Could Rei be a character in one of Murakami's novels? AH: I don't think that Murakami could make such a character. KW: But take for instance Murakami's >>Almost Transparent Blue<< where the characters are driven with negativity, self-destructive,.. AH: He describes a negative drive, but the characters are supported by so many commercial and materialistic things such as money, drugs, cultural products. But Rei has no relationship with materialistic/commercial things. Her solitude is based on pure material such as the concrete walls in her room, or the dirty floor. She has no clothes other than her high school uniform. Again, in the Japanese intellectual discourse there are two types of children's solitude. One is Ko-girl and the other is Otaku. The Ko-girl is social and surrounded by commercial products. Otaku are not social but surrounded by commercial things.Both are characteristic for their dependence on media-networks: Ko-girls use telephones to find their customers, while Otaku fill their room with computer software, videos, or magazines to seperate themselves from reality. I think that those two types are, in a Japanese context, two poles of the 80's ornamentality. Rei represents a new type of solitude. Materialistic and excluded from commercial things. KW: But take for instance Fukui's >>Pinocchio<<. There is a certain parallel. AH: Really? KW: The main character is socially disconnected and is excluded from commercial products. There is no ornament. He runs around in an environment that vaguely resembles the ruins of WW2. Rei looks very much like someone living in (civil) war territory. Unlike all other characters she stays in an apartment building that looks run down, in a remote (slum?) area. There is no name card on her door. It looks all completely impoverished. AH: I agree that the image of the apartment in >>Pinocchio<< very much resembles Rei's residence. But the other point is that two images intersect: one is that of a refugee, post war childhood. The child has no parents, no social relationship; deprived of their native country. The other image is one of scientific dis-ornament. Have you seen rooms of the medical department at universities? For example there are very expensive machines. But those precious machines are placed very rudely. It's all very dirty and quite dark. Things are not locked. I was quite afraid that everything was accessible without any warning or sign. It was all arranged for the purposes of specialists. KW: Her room looks anyway like in a hospital. One reason is, because she is wearing a bandage and has always blood all over her clothes/body. AH: In her apartment two images intersect. One is refugee, the other one is scientific dis-ornament. The intersection of these two motifs recalls the hide out of Aum called Satiyam. KW: I am trying to show that there are certain parallels and that Anno is just also not entirely disconnected from the sub-cultural movements of the last years. AH: Of course such contemporaneity is very important. The point is that in Anno all these images and motifs are very convincing and somehow brought to the point. KW: On the other hand Rei's character is quite realistic, whereas >>Pinocchio<< is completely removed from reality, the fantastic character of a dream. AH: I think that Rei is even an international character. __________ Azuma Hiroki: Born 1971 in Tokyo/Japan. Ph.D. Candidate at University of Tokyo with the subjects philosophy, art and literature. Writes theoretical essays for Japanese publications such as >>InterCommunication<< and >>Critical Space<< while contributing to popular magazines on cultural issues. --- # distributed via nettime-l : no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a closed moderated mailinglist for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo@icf.de and "info nettime" in the msg body # URL: http://www.desk.nl/~nettime/ contact: nettime-owner@icf.de