Transcript

Male:

Hey wait you're lis- (laughs)

Female:

Okay.

Male:

All right.

Female:

Okay.

Male:

All right.

Female:

You are lis-

Male:

Listening-

Female:

... to Radiolab, lab, lab.

Male:

Radiolab.

Female:

From [inaudible 00:00:12].

Male:

WNYC.

Female:

C

Female:

C?

Male:

Yeah.

Female:

(laughs).

Jad Abumrad:

Okay. Ready, three, two, one. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

Robert Krulwich:

I am Robert Krulwich.

Jad Abumrad:

This is Radiolab, and, uh, this is part two of our attempt to answer some listener questions that have piled up over the years gathering digital dust in our inbox.

Robert Krulwich:

Yes.

Jad Abumrad:

And a few of them in this round come from kinda close to home.

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

In any case, starting us off this round is a question asker who has developed quite a reputation here at Radiolab.

Robert Krulwich:

The indomitable, Scott Little.

Scott Little:

(laughs). I'm just a normal dude, man.

Jad Abumrad:

Scott spoke to our producer, Latif Nasser.

Latif Nasser:

Now Scott, he actually sent us a lot of questions that caught our attention.

Scott Little:

Yeah, they don't, they don't stop. I can't slow this brain down. I-

Latif Nasser:

Questions like ...

Scott Little:

I, I truly do not even remember like writing [crosstalk 00:01:02] ...

Latif Nasser:

Why is the moon devoid of all color?

Scott Little:

... but when I read them I was like, "Oh yeah, that sounds like me."

Latif Nasser:

Have we seriously not translated any animal languages yet?

Scott Little:

Is there a reason coconuts look a lot like chimpanzee heads or is that just a coincidence?

Latif Nasser:

(laughs). But then we zeroed in one of Scott's question that, at, at first seemed kinda simple but it got really big.

Scott Little:

Okay, when a space shuttle goes into space, how do they make sure it doesn't hit any satellites? Is it just radar or is there some kind of complicated system that tracks all of them?

Latif Nasser:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Scott Little:

And, and since we talked, just kinda looking up about this, you know, about like how many satellites are actually up there and what are we even calling space junk? And, and has this affected anything yet? Um, you know, it's just like it, it goes from like kinda informational to like almost like this sort of doom and gloom real fast.

Scott Little:

Like, there's so much junk up there. Like, it's gonna be impossible to leave the Earth's atmosphere pretty soon. And I don't know I just ... It just kind of ... I'd be curi- I'd be curious to see what- what, um, who's- who's in charge of all this. That's what I wanna know. Who's in charge here? Who's in charge of space?

Steve:

Okay, is everybody there?

Latif Nasser:

Yeah, I'm here.

Steve:

I've got Col. Walsh and she's willing to talk to you about space surveillance.

Latif Nasser:

Okay, great.

Steve:

Ma'am, can you still hear us?

Coionel Walsh:

Yes, I'm here if you can [crosstalk 00:02:20] ...

Latif Nasser:

So I couldn't actually find anyone who is literally in charge of space, but I did find what I think is pretty much the next best thing.

Coionel Walsh:

I'm Lt. Col. Mia Walsh and I'm the Commander of the 18th Space Control Squadron.

Latif Nasser:

I think your title has gotta be the coolest title of anyone I've ever interviewed.

Coionel Walsh:

My title is the coolest title? The Commander of the 18th Space Control Squadron?

Latif Nasser:

Yeah, that's like ... You should- you should have like an action figure I think.

Coionel Walsh:

That- that would be amazing.

Latif Nasser:

(laughs)

Coionel Walsh:

It would be a very tiny action figure.

Latif Nasser:

(laughs). Okay, so- so let's start from the top. When a space shuttle goes into space, how do they make sure it doesn't hit any satellites?

Coionel Walsh:

Well we keep track of what's called the space catalog.

Latif Nasser:

Which is like a giant logbook of all the manmade stuff surrounding us in outer space.

Coionel Walsh:

A little over 23,000 objects.

Latif Nasser:

Oh, wow.

Coionel Walsh:

So when- whenever there's a launch, anything manned or unmanned, we'll track it against the existing things in the catalog and we'll make sure that it doesn't hit anything on the way up.

Latif Nasser:

Or make sure it doesn't hit anything while it's up there. And then, if there is a chance of an actual collision, they send out an alert.

Coionel Walsh:

The notifications we create are called conjunction data messages.

Latif Nasser:

Uh-huh (affirmative).

Coionel Walsh:

Um, so send several thousand of those every day.

Latif Nasser:

What?

Coionel Walsh:

Within those couple thousand, we have a- a more refined what we call emergency criteria.

Latif Nasser:

Yeah.

Coionel Walsh:

Um, and we issue, um, between 6 and 10 of those per day.

Latif Nasser:

What? That's like a ... That's a lot.

Coionel Walsh:

It seems high, but when you consider we're tracking 23,000 objects it's- it's not too bad.

Latif Nasser:

(laughs). But on top of those 23,000 objects, it turns out there's- there's even more stuff out there. But she says it's basically just too small to be able to track.

Coionel Walsh:

We think that they're probably more like a half a million, close to half a million objects in space.

Latif Nasser:

What? What? So you have like almost none of them.

Coionel Walsh:

It- it sounds like that, but just remember that p- some of those 500,000 objects are very, very tiny pieces of debris.

Latif Nasser:

So like give me a sense. Like, how big? How small? What are we, yeah, what are we talking about?

Coionel Walsh:

Very small is as sizes of, um, flecks of paint.

Latif Nasser:

Oh man, so there's no way you can track like half a million flecks of paint. That feels like, that feels like impossible.

Coionel Walsh:

No, and actually if you Google space shuttle and fleck of paint you can see a pretty famous picture of this shuttle window that was hit by a fleck of paint. And the kind of damage that it can do moving at that speed.

Latif Nasser:

Tell me what kind of damage it can do moving at that speed. (Laughs). What- what, yeah, what- what would I see if I saw that picture? Yeah.

Coionel Walsh:

So it went through several layers of the shuttle window and they determined that it was from a fleck of paint. From just, you know, a tiny fleck.

Latif Nasser:

So you've got almost half a million pieces of this itty bitty space junk. And when it comes to that stuff?

Coionel Walsh:

It's really just a matter of keeping our fingers crossed and monitoring the situation, um, so that we can react to it if something happens.

Latif Nasser:

Oka. Well ... So- so- so, when I, when I called, um, this listener he's like ... He's a little bit, um, paranoid. Uh, and this is [crosstalk 00:05:16] ...

Speaker 9:

And- and then the- the one interesting thing I- I came from this is this thing I think it's called the- the Kessler Syndrome. Is that what it is? This Keslow Effect. That's what it is. So this- this NASA scientist got this thing named after him where he's like we might get to a point where we have so much stuff in space that like something will collide with- with ...

Speaker 9:

Like two satellites will collide and that collision will cause so much debris that it will basically be like this giant thing where just things are just exploding around the earth for like years and years and years. Like some sort of locust plague of space junk.

Latif Nasser:

Swarmed with a locust plague of space junk and that it'll be impossible to leave the Earth's atmosphere any time soon. What would you say to Scott?

Steve:

Latif, this is-

Coionel Walsh:

Just a second.

Steve:

Latif-

Latif Nasser:

Oh, yeah.

Steve:

... this is Steve.

Latif Nasser:

Yeah.

Coionel Walsh:

[inaudible 00:06:11].

Steve:

You know, we- we have a- we have a job to- to track those objects but, uh, a question like that is- is just kinda out of our realm of responsibility.

Latif Nasser:

Oh, okay, okay no problem. Um, but, uh, well, can I- can I ... And just let me ask another question then. Tell me if- if you can can't answer it, that's fine too. Um, which is he also brought up something called the Keslow Effect. Do you know about that or have you heard of that before?

Latif Nasser:

W- w- which is, which is the idea that there's a possibility that two satellites will collide and then they'll create debris and then that'll make a domino effect and cause all kinds of other collisions. And then it'll be a, a whole giant debris field.

Coionel Walsh:

Um, sure we've heard of it, the Kessler Effect.

Latif Nasser:

Oh, Kessler. Sorry about that.

Coionel Walsh:

Yeah, we're very familiar with the concept.

Latif Nasser:

Yeah. And is that something you worry about or no? Hello? Hello, hello?

Coionel Walsh:

I- I guess it- it's a concern, sure. But, um, I think the- the members of the squadron do such a great job tracking, um, everything that’s up there that we would hope that that wouldn't happen.

Robert Krulwich:

Not the, not the answer I was hoping for.

Latif Nasser:

Yeah, m- me neither. I- I gotta admit-

Robert Krulwich:

That didn't make too comfortable.

Latif Nasser:

... I- I started this whole thing thinking that Scott's fear was like kinda crazy. But then after that conversation I started, you know, researching it for real and I, online I found this video of Kessler himself.

Kessler:

At the beginning of the space program there was the general attitude that space was a big sky. That you could put anything in it that you wanted and not fill it up. The problem that you quickly run into ...

Latif Nasser:

And he- he basically says exactly what Scott did.

Kessler:

If we don't change the way we operate in space, all this results in exponentially increasing amount of debris until all objects are reduced to a cloud of orbiting fragments that are capable of discarding any spacecraft that attempts to operate anywhere within that cloud.

Latif Nasser:

Which would mean no satellites, no weather satellites, no GPS, no any other kinds of satellites. And then in the future if things go really badly, uh, you know, we'd just be stuck here forever and ever on Earth.

Taji:

The Earth.

Jad Abumrad:

Our next question comes from this guy in Brooklyn and he is ...

Taji:

Five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five.

Male:

That would be five.

Jad Abumrad:

Five years old.

Taji:

Five, five, five, five, five, five, five.

Jad Abumrad:

And I, uh, interviewed him ...

Taji:

[inaudible 00:08:51]

Jad Abumrad:

... in my kitchen. Who are you Taji?

Taji:

My name is Taji and I'm your son.

Jad Abumrad:

(Laughs). Okay, tell me your question.

Taji:

My question is why is the Earth called Earth?

Jad Abumrad:

Why is the Earth called Earth?

Taji:

I don't know why.

Jad Abumrad:

Do you have any guesses.

Taji:

Uh, the Earth just came up with the name.

Jad Abumrad:

The Earth came up with its own name?

Taji:

I think.

Jad Abumrad:

Okay, should I find out and then tell you?

Taji:

Yes.

Jad Abumrad:

My first stop was a guy named Peter.

Peter Berry:

Yeah, this is Peter.

Jad Abumrad:

Peter Berry.

Peter Berry:

I'm a isotope geochemist. I work at the- the University of Oxford. I'm a researcher here.

Jad Abumrad:

Am I right that you have some kind of a loose affiliation with NASA or is that, is that not right?

Peter Berry:

Very loose (laughs) in a sense that I mean I do a little bit of planetary work. I've worked on some lunar samples in the past, but ...

Jad Abumrad:

You've worked on lunar samples?

Peter Berry:

Yes, I've actually done some- some isotope work on lunar samples.

Jad Abumrad:

He's actually one of the few people on the planet who's held the moon in his hand. So here's my question. I think it's pretty simple, but maybe there's a story there. I don't know. The question comes from Taj via me, his dad. Why is the Earth called the Earth?

Peter Berry:

Well that's a- that's a really interesting question. The Earth is actually ... So this is, uh, an- it's an old Saxon word derived from English Germanic roots. In German, Earth is said, uh, Erde. I believe ...

Jad Abumrad:

Erde.

Peter Berry:

... that's how you say Earth in- in German. And of course all these, all these words are originally derived from like a mother language like an Indo-European mother language. But what it means in German and what it means in all those old languages, it actually just means soil or ground.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh. Huh.

Peter Berry:

All the other planets, all the other visible planets have these really, you know, awesome names. And they're all named after Roman god.

Jad Abumrad:

I mean you have Mercury. It moved really quickly around the sun. So it got its name from the Roman messenger god. Then you have Venus which was this bright, beautiful orb glowing in the sky. So we named it after the goddess of love. And, of course Mars, which was fiery and red, and so we named it after the God of war.

Jad Abumrad:

And Earth is the only planet which isn't named after a Roman god. It clearly has this much different, uh, uh, etymology.

Peter Berry:

Peter ultimately referred me to another guy at Oxford.

Gabriel Berry:

Hello.

Jad Abumrad:

[inaudible 00:11:22]. Hi, can I speak to Gabe, please?

Gabriel Berry:

Hi, speaking, yeah. Hi, Jad.

Jad Abumrad:

This is Gabriel Berry?

Gabriel Berry:

I can tell you a bit about, um, who the Proto Indo-Europeans probably were.

Jad Abumrad:

Sure.

Gabriel Berry:

Um ...

Robert Krulwich:

Proto? Proto Indo-European?

Jad Abumrad:

Yes, so- so, uh, so basically what Gabriel Berry told me is that you could, you could trace all- this whole thing. The word Er, Erde, back to this group of people who lived ...

Gabriel Berry:

Maybe 6,000 years ago.

Jad Abumrad:

This is like way before JC. Way before the Greeks or the Romans.

Gabriel Berry:

The Proto Indo-European lived in basically what's now Eastern Europe. So these are really people from steps of Russia.

Jad Abumrad:

Don't know a lot about them. We know they moved around a lot.

Gabriel Berry:

... nomadic people, couldn't for whatever reason settle down.

Jad Abumrad:

But he says at some point maybe about 5,000 years ago ...

Gabriel Berry:

They moved from the steps of Eastern Europe and Russia and swept into Europe. It seems they drove chariots and they came on horseback in a huge wave, uh, and settled all the way from Britain down to Northern India.

Jad Abumrad:

So, imagine this, uh, this wave of people on horseback spreading all over Europe and into India and speaking this language that would ultimately branch out into English and German and French and Hindi and Portuguese and like 400 some odd languages.

Gabriel Berry:

And as they spread across Europe and across down into India and Iran ...

Jad Abumrad:

The thought is they started to slow down, settle down.

Gabriel Berry:

And that's when they became farmers.

Jad Abumrad:

And that's when they started spending a lot of time looking down at the dirt.

Gabriel Berry:

We have lots of words for farming from Proto Indo-European words like plow, furrow or- or er.

Jad Abumrad:

Er as in the word that would become Earth. Uh, but at that early point it just meant dirt. And presumably it just meant like this dirt. Like this specific little piece of dirt right here that I'm plowing. But somewhere along the way, that word er, erde, became the word for all dirt, the whole ball of dirt.

Gabriel Berry:

Basically the word that starts being used for Earth becomes ... It's the same word as used for then, you know, the globe and also, uh, quite often some sort of goddess.

Jad Abumrad:

We have no idea when that switch happened exactly. I mean we know within a few thousand years. But whenever it was, that strikes me as a pretty important moment for us people. Can I ask you some questions, Taji?

Taji:

What?

Jad Abumrad:

When did you discover the Earth was a planet?

Taji:

When I was on it.

Jad Abumrad:

No, no really. When did you discover? Do you remember when you, when you learned that the Earth was a ball?

Taji:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

When?

Taji:

When I was two.

Jad Abumrad:

You don't remember, do you?

Taji:

I do.

Jad Abumrad:

No, you don't.

Taji:

Yes, I do. Little Nest, at Little Nest.

Jad Abumrad:

According to Taj, I mean, I don't know this is what I could get out of him, that moment for him happened at daycare. This place called Little Nest in Brooklyn.

Taji:

Yeah, Vanessa, uh, did it.

Jad Abumrad:

It was a day when his teacher, Vanessa, had them do this little project.

Taji:

She said we were going to make o- our own er- our person Earth.

Jad Abumrad:

Our own what?

Taji:

Our own person Earth.

Jad Abumrad:

What does that mean?

Taji:

That means learn about the Earth and make a- a Earth with two eyes and some legs and some arms.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh, I see. I see. They were basically making these Earth puppets. And he says after that did that ...

Taji:

I was sitting on the rug.

Jad Abumrad:

You were sitting on the rug.

Taji:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

Is that where you have your best ideas?

Taji:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

He was sitting on this, uh, little rainbow-colored rug that they have and holding his Earth puppet.

Taji:

And I- I was thinking. I was thinking of the Earth was round, smooth, round and it's a planet.

Jad Abumrad:

By the time we get from the Proto Indo-Europeans to the ancient Greeks and Romans, which is a couple thousand years, we begin to see the concept of Earth rising up. It goes from a simple word that means dirt or soil to Mother Earth, a goddess.

Jad Abumrad:

So it went in the opposite direction of the other planets. It started as this lowly, dirty thing beneath our feet, and then became divine. When I told Taj this answer, uh, he was disappointed. He was actually hoping that the Earth was named by an alien.

Taji:

Daddy, now can I ask another question?

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah, you got another one? Go ahead.

Taji:

Uh, how was the sun made?

Jad Abumrad:

How was the sun made? You mean like how- how did the sun become the sun?

Taji:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

Man, that's another good question. How-

Taji:

It's the same question I did.

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah, I know. I was just repeating it so I could understand. Are you asking me how was the sun born?

Female:

Do you ever look at someone and wonder, what is going on inside their head?

Jad Abumrad:

Do-do-do-do, l- l- l- l- l. What- what- what.

Male:

How does he know that? I mean, how- why is he so short-

Jad Abumrad:

Sorry, I've got [inaudible 00:16:54].

Male:

B- b- da, ba- ba- ba.

Jad Abumrad:

If BFF is best friends forever. What is BFO?

Robert Krulwich:

Best friends often.

Jad Abumrad:

Okay. Are you ready?

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

Are you ready?

Robert Krulwich:

I am all ready.

Jad Abumrad:

Do you see what I'm doing?

Robert Krulwich:

What are you doing?

Jad Abumrad:

Boink.

Robert Krulwich:

Does Dunkin' Donuts have it?

Jad Abumrad:

Maybe.

Robert Krulwich:

No, no, no, like, like here in America they have people come in and I think somebody comes with a truck.

Jad Abumrad:

What?

Robert Krulwich:

What do you do with it? Wait, you have done it before.

Jad Abumrad:

Wait, how do they do that?

Robert Krulwich:

I don't even understand that question.

Jad Abumrad:

(Laughs). Wow-

Robert Krulwich:

Maybe I should tell Simon that we're in here.

Male:

[inaudible 00:17:22] may I help you?

Jad Abumrad:

Next up.

Tim Adler:

Yes, just a senior coffee, black, please.

Male:

All right, 68 cents. Thank you.

Tim Adler:

Thank you.

Jad Abumrad:

The Adler family.

Robert Krulwich:

As in producer Simon Adler and his dad, Tim.

Simon Adler:

Yep, uh, so a couple weeks back ...

Tim Adler:

I'm just heading out of town now.

Simon Adler:

... I asked my old man, my dad, uh, to record himself going on a drive.

Tim Adler:

All good road trips deserve a cup of coffee. And being the frugal individual that I am, I decided that a drive through at- of McDonald's would be the appropriate place to fuel up.

Simon Adler:

He and my mom live in Northwestern Wisconsin in a small, little city town called Eau Claire.

Tim Adler:

I'm going to drive country roads.

Simon Adler:

And specifically what- what I'd asked him to do was to go drive on the county highways just outside of town.

Tim Adler:

Passing through farm field areas. There are very few cars on the road that I'm on.

Simon Adler:

And the reason I asked him to do this was because for as long as I can remember, he's had this nagging question. A question that he bombards me with every time I'm home. Oft times when we're talking on the phone, he'll bring it up.

Tim Adler:

Simon.

Simon Adler:

Can you hear me?

Tim Adler:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Adler:

Over the dinner table, over email. I mean, I've heard about this at least 600 times. What does mom think about all this? I've never asked her.

Tim Adler:

Oh, (laughs), I don't know. She- she just rolls her eyes.

Simon Adler:

Okay (laughs).

Tim Adler:

(Laughs). Here he goes again.

Simon Adler:

Yeah, yeah.

Tim Adler:

So what's happening?

Simon Adler:

Yeah, so do you want me to tell you why- why I'm recording or do you want me to ju-

Tim Adler:

I- I knew we would get to it. So you can tell me now. I thought maybe it was gonna be like a puzzle that I had to figure out.

Simon Adler:

Okay. Well, let me, let me just prompt you with this and see- see how well you take the bait here.

Tim Adler:

Okay.

Simon Adler:

Do you know the question I'm talking about? And could you just tell me what that question is?

Tim Adler:

That question is ... Well, let me back up. An example is this. A person will be riding a road bike down a lonely country road. Two other people will be walking their dog on the side of the road. And a semi trailer truck will then be coming down that road.

Simon Adler:

Okay, so we've got three different actors here and nobody else for miles and miles and miles.

Tim Adler:

And there is not ... You haven't ... The biker hasn't seen another car, truck or pedestrian for miles on this road.

Simon Adler:

(Laughs), okay.

Tim Adler:

But what will happen is all three of those actors will come together at the exact same point at the exact same time creating a dangerous situation, first of all. But then it's just this spark and then it diffuses. And you could sit on that stretch of road for six more years and not find that happen.

Simon Adler:

And the key thing here my dad says is he, Tim Adler, uh, witnesses this sort of thing ...

Tim Adler:

Oh, it happens to me a lot.

Simon Adler:

... all the time.

Tim Adler:

I would say it happens once every two weeks. Upcoming we have the possibility of an event.

Simon Adler:

On the day I sent him to record himself, uh, after 10 or 15 minutes of not seeing a single other are on the road, he came around this bend ...

Tim Adler:

There's a manure wagon being driven by a tractor right down the road. And yes, h- here it all happens. The manure wagon is going down the road. A tractor has just pulled out on the road, and now I'm passing by. And all three happened at the exact same place. It just happens.

Simon Adler:

What is your question then? Is it why does that happen or is it, uh-

Tim Adler:

[inaudible 00:21:23] the question is why does this happen to me? And does it seem to happen to others as well?

Sir David S.:

Okay. It's- I think it's quite complicated. I don't know if your ... Does your father get the thing where ...

Simon Adler:

To get to the bottom of this, we called up a man who we thought might just have the answer.

Sir David S.:

I'm, uh, professor. I'm actually Prof. Sir David Spiegelhalter. I'm-

Simon Adler:

Wait, did you say you're professor sir? Does that mean you've been knighted?

Sir David S.:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Adler:

You're a knight.

Sir David S.:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Adler:

You're the, you're the first knight I've ever spoken to. I'm honored, truly honored.

Sir David S.:

(Laughs). Oh, it's nothing much. Cambridge is stuffed full of ... There's hundreds. There's three a penny around here.

Simon Adler:

The probability of me talking to a ...

Sir David S.:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Simon Adler:

... Cambridge professor.

Sir David S.:

Very high indeed, yeah, yeah.

Simon Adler:

Professor Sir David is a statistician.

Sir David S.:

We're pretty dull.

Simon Adler:

And when I ran my old man's question by him, his response ...

Sir David S.:

I get quite a lot of stories like this. People contact me and they get very anxious in fact because they feel that something's going on in their lives, they're making things happen all the time. They're getting signs from the environment around them.

Simon Adler:

Okay.

Sir David S.:

I mean term is ... You know, it's known as synchronicity. Synchronicity.

Carl Jung:

You know there are these, uh, peculiar faculties of the psyche.

Sir David S.:

That was the term that Karl Jung invented for this.

Carl Jung:

That this is entirely confined to- to space and time.

Simon Adler:

Carl Gustav Jung, you know, the famed psychoanalyst of the 20th century.

Carl Jung:

You can have dreams or visions of the future.

Sir David S.:

And he- he had the idea that there was actually some force behind nature that we didn't currently recognize that did drive these things to happen. Something beyond the normal rules of physics and "rationality".

Simon Adler:

Hmm.

Sir David S.:

So he really believed that there was this external force. I think he just wasn't a very good statistician.

Simon Adler:

Because, Sir David says, uh, when you start to look at the events in our lives in terms of their probability ...

Sir David S.:

Every single event that happens to us is unbelievably unlikely and unpredictable. So, the crucial thing that measures that sort of suprisingness is the unlikeliness of it occurring at some point over a reasonable period.

Simon Adler:

In just a, I don't know, I'm trying to make this as concrete as possible. So ...

Sir David S.:

Good luck.

Simon Adler:

So, if you're driving down a street-

Sir David S.:

Yeah.

Simon Adler:

... that has, I don't know, three cars per 10 miles and-

Sir David S.:

Yeah, yeah.

Simon Adler:

... two bikers per 10 miles-

Sir David S.:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Adler:

... like, how likely is it that over the course of those 10 miles you're gonna to intersect-

Sir David S.:

Yep.

Simon Adler:

... the way that he does?

Sir David S.:

Okay, the likelihood of that happening at any particular 10 miles or any particular hour is very low. It's a surprising event. But if your father drives a lot, the likelihood of it happening over, I don't know, maybe a week or two weeks, or in a month is very high.

Simon Adler:

Sir David says, uh, think of it this way. So, let's say my dad would consider one of these intersections to be a meaningful coincidence, a synchronous event. If a semi truck and a biker pass him within five seconds of each other.

Simon Adler:

Now if within one hour od driving my dad sees, say, 15 cars and 5 bikers, the math tells me that the likelihood of one of each of both a car and a bike passing him in the same five second window is about 1 in 7,000.

Simon Adler:

But, think of how many of those five second windows there are in any given week or month. Uh, in fact, think of each of these five second windows as, like, one spring of a roulette wheel. A giant roulette wheel with 7,000 different numbers that you could bet the ball would land on. But-

Male:

Get your bets down ladies and gentlemen.

Simon Adler:

And- and this is key. When my dad's driving it's not like he only gets one spin of the wheel or one chance to see one of these synchronous events. Instead-

Male:

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen.

Simon Adler:

... it's like every five seconds he gets to try again. And given that he drives like three hours a week, when you do the math, what you end up with is a 31% chance of him experiencing this in any given week. Meaning if he's looking for it, he should definitely expect to see one of these at least once a month.

Sir David S.:

So you have to not look at just the event, not just the particular thing your father observed, you have to think of all the chances for those things to occur that didn't occur. (laughs) You know, you gotta think of all the stuff you're not seeing.

Simon Adler:

How are you?

Tim Adler:

Pretty good. You see that fish?

Simon Adler:

Quite the fish.

Tim Adler:

It- it's like his third cast and bang (laughs), he hits that thing.

Simon Adler:

I called my dad back to break the news to him.

Tim Adler:

All right.

Simon Adler:

You want the answer?

Tim Adler:

Yes.

Simon Adler:

So, a week or so ... I explained it to him from the history of Jung to the fact that he's really just gotta pay attention to all the times these coincidences aren't happening.

Tim Adler:

Right.

Simon Adler:

And when you look at it from that angle, it's statistically to be expected.

Tim Adler:

There. I- I understand. I understand. It's a little hard to swallow. I'm a little more Jungian than most. It- it does make-

Simon Adler:

(laughs)

Tim Adler:

... sense from a statistical analysis. But why does it keep happening to me?

Sir David S.:

So these things do happen to some people. And I've got a lot of admiration for these people because they ... Your father's obviously a great man. You know, it does tend to happen to people who are very sensitive and aware, and they notice their environment. They're actually very mindful people it happens to.

Sir David S.:

I suppose what I'm saying is this is a really admirable, you know, characteristic trait.

Tim Adler:

Well there's no question this makes my day when I've heard that I've been praised by a knight.

Simon Adler:

(Laughs).

Tim Adler:

Tell his highness that some day we should go out for a cup of tea.

Simon Adler:

I ... n- not to bring it down though, he heaped all this praise on you.

Sir David S.:

I'd love to meet him. I'm- I'm sure he's wonderful.

Simon Adler:

But then concluded by saying ...

Sir David S.:

But I would ... I think I would say that he's not very special. (laughs).

Tim Adler:

(Laughs). Well I'll- I ... You didn't really have to tell me that. (laughs).

Simon Adler:

Yeah, sorry, sorry.

Tim Adler:

Now that's okay. That ... I'm gonna just listen to the first part. All right.

Simon Adler:

Okay.

Tim Adler:

Uh, enjoy the rest of the day and the week.

Simon Adler:

Thanks, I love you and I’ll talk ... Uh, uh, tell mom I'll give her a call, uh, hopefully tomorrow morning.

Tim Adler:

Very fine, love you too. Bye.

Simon Adler:

Talk to you later, dad. Bye-bye.

Female:

Your home for NPR news and classical music, 89.3, WPN Green Bay. (music)

Male:

I want to ask you one question. All right.

Female:

Where am I? Where am I?

Male:

Excellent question.

Male:

Where are you?

Male:

Now just relax. Can you tell me who you are?

Female:

I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.

Female:

Now let's see. Where am I? Where was I? I wonder which way I ought to go.

Female:

Go.

Female:

Where are you going to?

Male:

Where am I? Where do I go?

Female:

[inaudible 00:28:52]

Male:

Where are you right now?

Male:

Do you know where you are?

Male:

How did you get here?

Male:

Oh- oh Christ. Oh, Christ, where am I? Where am I?

Male:

[inaudible 00:29:03].

Male:

Where am I?

Male:

Christ, where am I? Oh God, where am I?

Male:

Stop.

Jacob:

Hi, this is Jacob calling from Tufts University in Medford, Massachusetts. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alford P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. I listen to Radiolab so much that I actually had that part memorized.

Female:

With so many new podcasts, how do you find your next obsession? Try Pocket Cast, the free podcast app designed by listeners for listeners with curated recommendations, discovery is easy and seamless. When you find something you like, just hit play. Find all your favorite shows, old and new, at pocketcast.com or find us in the Apple app or Google Play stores.

Jad Abumrad:

Jad.

Robert Krulwich:

Robert.

Jad Abumrad:

Radiolab.

Robert Krulwich:

And we are back.

Jad Abumrad:

With more questions.

Robert Krulwich:

Okay. So, next up.

Evan Becker:

Yeah, my name's Evan Becker, um ...

Robert Krulwich:

We're going to go to Boston with Evan Becker.

Jad Abumrad:

And here is his question.

Robert Krulwich:

So I- I grew up in the Boston area. I still live in Boston today. Kinda relevant to this question is ...

Robert Krulwich:

Evan it turns out is something of a snowboarder.

Evan Becker:

Yep, you know, I've been snowboarding for 20 plus years or so. And friends and I, uh, traditionally go up to, uh, uh, New Hampshire, Vermont, you know, New England area to go skiing.

Robert Krulwich:

And, you know, a many years back on one of these, uh, group trips they took ...

Evan Becker:

Uh, we- we were skiing and, um, they had recently opened a snow tubing course.

Tracy Hunte:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Robert Krulwich:

And by the way that tiny ...

Tracy Hunte:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Robert Krulwich:

That's our producer, Tracy Hunte.

Tracy Hunte:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Evan Becker:

And, uh, everybody's looking at the snow tube course and someone just posed a question of like how fast do you think that thing goes? Um, and then another friend jumped in and said, "I- I bet you I could get that up to like a hundred miles an hour easily from the top of the mountain." Everybody's like, "No way. You couldn't even do that in perfect conditions".

Robert Krulwich:

And from this small, little disagreement ...

Evan Becker:

The great debate began from there. And like that was in 2004.

Tracy Hunte:

(Laughs). Oh my god.

Evan Becker:

So, this has been going on for more than a decade.

Robert Krulwich:

And over these 10 years going back and forth and back and forth on this question, Evan and his friends gradually focused in on the rules of this argument. And eventually they came on this very specific wording.

Evan Becker:

So, the question is, um, in perfect conditions within the Earth's atmosphere and not within a vacuum, can you reach 100 miles per hour going down a mountain on a every day snow tube?

Robert Krulwich:

Like an innertube.

Evan Becker:

Like, the same thing that you'd get if you went to a local hardware store or something like that, nothing fancy, nothing, you know, overly engineered, things like that.

Robert Krulwich:

And still to this day some of Evans friends are like ...

Evan Becker:

Yeah.

Robert Krulwich:

... we can break a hundred miles an hour. We can. But Evan.

Evan Becker:

I just do see that it could happen.

Robert Krulwich:

He says no.

Evan Becker:

You cannot do this.

Robert Krulwich:

But.

Destin Sandlin:

I think it can happen. I think it can happen.

Robert Krulwich:

That is Destin Sandlin, host of an extremely popular YouTube channel called ...

Destin Sandlin:

Hey it's me, Destin. Welcome back to Smarter Everyday.

Robert Krulwich:

And this is important, smarter everyday, 'cause he is very smart. On his channel, what Destin does is he proposes ...

Destin Sandlin:

So you've probably observed that cats almost always land on their feet.

Robert Krulwich:

... questions.

Destin Sandlin:

Today's question is why.

Robert Krulwich:

Questions a lot like Evan's which he then proceeds to answer.

Destin Sandlin:

Let me introduce you to Gigi, the stunt cat.

Tracy Hunte:

I think, Destin, you're also an actual rocket scientist, a little bit.

Destin Sandlin:

Uh, I've only, I've only said that one time. My mom corrected me very quickly.

Tracy Hunte:

(Laughs).

Destin Sandlin:

She's like ... No, I- I'm a ... I'm what's called a flight test engineer.

Tracy Hunte:

Oh, okay.

Destin Sandlin:

So we- we test missiles and helicopters and stuff like that.

Jad Abumrad:

But can I say one thing before we start, uh?

Destin Sandlin:

Sure.

Jad Abumrad:

I feel like before we jump to the answering part of this conversation I want to appreciate the question. So I'm - I'm wondering is there some, like, physical ... Are there some physical reasons why a hundred would be really hard to do in an innertube-

Destin Sandlin:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

... down a hill?

Destin Sandlin:

Yeah. S- s- so this is what I- I thought about when I first heard the question. So, if you think about going down a hill, there's two things that are slowing you down. The first one is the friction with the snow. And the second one is the air resistance.

Robert Krulwich:

Which for Destin all boils down to something that he calls ...

Destin Sandlin:

Drag. It's a 1/2 times the density of the air, times the coefficient of drag, times the cross-sectional ... So this started as a really simple question in my mind. And- and as I started gaming out how to, how to do this without killing a person.

Robert Krulwich:

(Laughs).

Jad Abumrad:

The- the more I thought about it, the more I realized it can get very, very complicated.

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah. I mean, I- I can, I can show you all those equations, but I can't work 'em out on the back of an envelope, mostly because math is hard. (laughs)

Robert Krulwich:

Still he did tell us he could ... He was pretty confident that he could get this tube to go down more than a hundred miles an hour down the hill.

Scott Little:

Yes, I'm saying that it can happen.

Jad Abumrad:

And are we sure that somebody hasn't done this and posted like their Go Pro video on YouTube?

Tera Sandlin:

Well, there is a Guinness World Record-

Tracy Hunte:

Oh.

Tera Sandlin:

... for gravity-powered snow sled.

Jad Abumrad:

Whoa, what is it?

Group:

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Jad Abumrad:

What's, what's the world record speed.

Robert Krulwich:

What is it?

Tracy Hunte:

She's passing me the phone. Um ...

Robert Krulwich:

Okay so at this moment, Destin's wife, Tera Sandlin, she's in the studio because she's with him on vacation in New York and she's been looking at her iPhone at the Guinness World Record's website.

Tera Sandlin:

Gravity-powered snow sled, 134 kilometers per hour.

Group:

Wait, whoa [crosstalk 00:34:38] ...

Male:

That's over a hundred.

Tera Sandlin:

Oh no it isn't. It's at 83.49 miles per hour.

Male:

That's under. Gravity-powered sled?

Tracy Hunte:

Eighty-three-

Male:

Gravity powered-

Jad Abumrad:

Eighty-three.

Male:

... sled. I'm over here questioning everything about what I believe. I mean this is ...

Destin Sandlin:

(Laughs) This is a big moment for me.

Jad Abumrad:

A sled is meant for velocity. A tube is not.

Destin Sandlin:

You think that would be faster.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh, man.

Destin Sandlin:

Eighty-three miles an hour?

Jad Abumrad:

Oh, ahh.

Robert Krulwich:

Oh, we're too slow here.

Destin Sandlin:

So- so here's the deal. I- I'm different than most people. I- I'm not going to die in this foxhole if it's clear that I'm wrong.

Group:

(Laughs). What is ...

Destin Sandlin:

If it's clear that I'm wrong, I'm gonna retract. But ...

Group:

(Laughs).

Jad Abumrad:

Okay, so here's where I would go with this. This is what I would do. The- the real big thing that the tube causes a problem in my mind is all the friction on the, on the mountain. Right? So, I mean, within the bounds of the question because he- he went to all these great lengths to define what we could do and what we couldn't, he did not tell us what slope the mountain had to be on. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to the worst possible mountain imaginable, which is straight down. A cliff, basically.

Robert Krulwich:

(Laughs).

Tracy Hunte:

Okay, are we all on the party line?

Robert Krulwich:

And so with the help of Producer Tracy Hunte ...

Tracy Hunte:

Evan?

Evan Becker:

I'm here.

Tracy Hunte:

And- and Destin could you hear?

Destin Sandlin:

Yeah, I heard Evan. Can you hear me?

Robert Krulwich:

We wanted Evan the questioner to hear how Destin's gonna work this thing out.

Tracy Hunte:

Good, we're all together.

Evan Becker:

Super excited to hear what the answers are.

Destin Sandlin:

Yeah, so this is ultimately a question about terminal velocity. Right?

Evan Becker:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Destin Sandlin:

So, in theory, if we were to go straight down like out of an airplane, we would go as fast as we could ever go because the only thing contributing to the terminal velocity at that point would be drag.

Robert Krulwich:

No friction at all.

Destin Sandlin:

And so w- would you accept the answer? If I'm able to go a hundred miles per hour straight down out of an airplane, for example, would you say that it is possible? Maybe even if our, you know, even if our hill is only one degree off of, you know, straight down towards the Earth. That still counts as a hill, right?

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah, I- I guess so. You know-

Tracy Hunte:

(Laughs).

Evan Becker:

At least ... Yeah, as long as it's going downhill in the Earth's atmosphere, yeah.

Destin Sandlin:

So I- I wanna call, uh, I've got a buddy named, Paul, here in Alabama. He owns a place called Skydive Alabama. I go to church with him and see him all the time. And, uh (laughs), I think he'd be game.

Tracy Hunte:

So, c- is that ... Could you, could you, Destin, like, uh, I don't know, like, two-way call him from your phone or something'? Is that what- what you think you're gonna try to do?

Destin Sandlin:

Yeah. So Paul Russo, here we go. What's up man? Are you ready for me to merge you? All right, Paul, are you there?

Paul Russo:

Yes, sir.

Tracy Hunte:

Oh, oh. Hi, Paul

Destin Sandlin:

Okay.

Paul Russo:

How's it going?

Tracy Hunte:

And we have Evan who had this, who had this crazy question about snow tubing. (Laughs).

Paul Russo:

(Laughs), okay.

Evan Becker:

Hi there, Paul.

Destin Sandlin:

So Paul, let me, let me kinda set the stage here. This ...

Robert Krulwich:

Okay, so Destin explains the whole innertube thing and he tells his friend, Paul, like we wanna know if you could jump out of a plane, go straight down, could you break the hundred miles per hour barrier?

Destin Sandlin:

Is that safe? Can you do a test like that?

Paul Russo:

Well, yeah, it- it's totally possible. I've done it.

Tracy Hunte:

What? Wait.

Paul Russo:

Um, so- (laughs)

Jad Abumrad:

You've done it with an innertube?

Paul Russo:

Absolutely and a raft as well, like, a- a full sized raft.

Jad Abumrad:

What?

Paul Russo:

Yeah.

Robert Krulwich:

Paul says that on two different occasions, he and a bunch of friends jumped out of an airplane carrying an inflatable flotation device, uh, in one hand, and they had- had a watch, a little computer that tracked their speed on the other.

Tracy Hunte:

How d- how fast did you go? (laughs)

Paul Russo:

Um, in both cases it was over 120.

Jad Abumrad:

Really?

Evan Becker:

No.

Tracy Hunte:

What?

Paul Russo:

Yeah. Yeah, it's 100% possible.

Jad Abumrad:

That doesn't count.

Robert Krulwich:

No, it does count. It's the same. It's as if, it's as if he had a virtual mountain that he jumped off of.

Jad Abumrad:

The question specifically said on the mountain. Like these guys have been arguing about this for a decade.

Robert Krulwich:

Right.

Jad Abumrad:

And we're gonna come back to them and be like no, no just drop it out of an airplane? No, that's cheating. That doesn't resolve anything.

Robert Krulwich:

No, the airplane ...

Jad Abumrad:

You could be down a mountain and not touch a mountain. True or false?

Robert Krulwich:

That's where you go to law school doing stuff like that.

Jad Abumrad:

Well did you read the question? I- I am hereby recusing myself from this whole affair. We have, we have, we have ceased to truly in good faith answer the question.

Male:

What do you mean?

Jad Abumrad:

And furthermore, we get the guy on the phone ...

Male:

Wait, look.

Jad Abumrad:

... and we hoodwink him into accepting a renegotiated, uh, uh, contract here of the question.

Robert Krulwich:

That's a physicist's logic. That's not-

Jad Abumrad:

No, he got bullied. I am ... I will not be a party to this. I- I ... No. (music) (singing)

Robert Krulwich:

Tell us where we're going next.

Jad Abumrad:

Y- so the next one, uh, is from our produce Annie McEwen.

Robert Krulwich:

Oh.

Jad Abumrad:

Hello, Annie.

Annie McEwen:

Hello, Jad.

Robert Krulwich:

So what are we going to be talking about today?

Annie McEwen:

I don't know.

Robert Krulwich:

(laughs)

Jad Abumrad:

What is your ... What question do you bring us?

Annie McEwen:

Uh, okay. So, this one is a little bit different because it didn't come in the form of a question, it came in the form of a very tantalizing email.

Robert Krulwich:

Mm-hmm

Annie McEwen:

From a fellow named Arne Hendriks.

Robert Krulwich:

Arne Hendriks?

Annie McEwen:

Yes. From Amsterdam.

Arne Hendriks:

Good morning.

Annie McEwen:

Hi, is this Arne?

Arne Hendriks:

Yes, it's me.

Annie McEwen:

And he basically said, "Hey, I'm Arne. I'm an artist. And I just want you all at Radiolab to know that me and my friend ...

Arne Hendriks:

We are building an island of fat.

Annie McEwen:

... are building an island of fat."

Jad Abumrad:

(Laughs).

Robert Krulwich:

An island of fat.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah, I know. Like, uh, I was like of all the things to build an island out of, why fat?

Arne Hendriks:

I'm just fascinated by it. I just like thinking about it.

Annie McEwen:

Well, what was like ... What's the thing that made you start looking at fat in a curious way? What was the moment?

Arne Hendriks:

Well, uh, the- the real moment? The real moment was, um, I was sitting together with a friend of mine, Mike Thompson, and we were in a train going to Amsterdam. And we started talking about fat, and that it was such a strange thing, fat. And why was there so much of it?

Annie McEwen:

Were you eating fat or were you feeling fat?

Arne Hendriks:

(Laughs).

Annie McEwen:

Or what- what-

Arne Hendriks:

I don't know. I mean, we're weird guys.

Annie McEwen:

Right.

Arne Hendriks:

We talk about things like this.

Annie McEwen:

(laughs)

Arne Hendriks:

But we're probably eating fat, like chips or-

Annie McEwen:

Right.

Arne Hendriks:

... fries or something. And then, we start talking about how in the English newspapers there have been this news stories about fatbergs-

Annie McEwen:

These fatbergs that are under the ground in the sewers of London just like wreaking havoc. And there was one ...

Jad Abumrad:

Wait, wait, wait.

Robert Krulwich:

Fat what?

Jad Abumrad:

Time out. (laughs)

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

What? (laughs)

Robert Krulwich:

Spell that word. Fatberg?

Jad Abumrad:

(laughs)

Annie McEwen:

Fatberg. It's actually in the Oxford dictionary since 2015. It's like an actual word now, fatberg.

Robert Krulwich:

Like an iceberg?

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

Wait. I- in the sewers?

Annie McEwen:

In the sewers.

Jad Abumrad:

Wow. What do those look like?

Annie McEwen:

Well, I mean like, sorta imagine an iceberg, I guess. But th- this one's floating on the water in the tunnels underground in London. And it's made entire of- of fat.

Arne Hendriks:

Yeah.

Annie McEwen:

And a little while ago Arne and his friend, Michael, actually got to go down into the sewers to check out these fatbergs.

Arne Hendriks:

And it was an amazing experience.

Annie McEwen:

They're sorta like wading through it with these wader- hip waders on, pushing bits and pieces of fat aside.

Arne Hendriks:

It- it's just this strange sort of trampoline of gooey stuff inside of the sewer.

Annie McEwen:

Wait. Yeah, let me look it up.

Jad Abumrad:

Wait. Is ... You have ... Is that a picture of it?

Robert Krulwich:

Of a fatberg?

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh my god. Wow.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah. So- so it's like this like clumpy, lumpy mass of garbag-y fat stuff. It's gray and brown and it's sorta like filled with all this sewer stuff.

Arne Hendriks:

Worms live in it.

Robert Krulwich:

Eew.

Jad Abumrad:

Whoa.

Arne Hendriks:

Uh, fungus grows on it.

Annie McEwen:

And it just like completely blocks the old brick tunnels underground.

Jad Abumrad:

So this is like, this is like based on the things people have eaten, there's so much fat in people's diet so it ends up in the sewers?

Robert Krulwich:

So you're fishing [crosstalk 00:42:38] ...

Annie McEwen:

No, no, no, no it's just like ... It's like people throwing fat away. Like taking bacon grease, throwing it down the sink, cooking fat, down the sink.

Jad Abumrad:

What?

Annie McEwen:

Yeah, and in September of this year in London they found a fatberg in the sewers that weighed as much as 11 double decker buses. That's how much fat-

Jad Abumrad:

Shut up.

Annie McEwen:

I know, it's crazy.

Robert Krulwich:

In one place?

Annie McEwen:

In one place.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh, my god.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah, and of course ...

Male:

Engineers at the Tim’s Water Company in Britain say they've launched a sewer war against a giant fat blog clogging London's sewers.

Annie McEwen:

The way it's described in the news ...

Arne Hendriks:

Fat is always a monster.

Male:

A hoard of fatty monsters.

Arne Hendriks:

There will be something positive. It needs to be monitored. It needs to be dealt with. We've conquered it.

Male:

A now familiar enemy.

Male:

It has a bad rap.

Annie McEwen:

But, I mean, Arne felt like maybe fat isn't a monster. Maybe it's just like this- this giant thing in the world that's- that's trying to express itself.

Arne Hendriks:

It wants to be there. It wants to be seen. It wants to be on stage. It wants some appreciation.

Annie McEwen:

It's fat trying to have a voice and say like listen to me. I am here.

Jad Abumrad:

(Laughs).

Annie McEwen:

Don't throw me down your sink. I'm important. I- I make up 20% of your body, da-da-da-da ...

Jad Abumrad:

He's a fat-

Annie McEwen:

So please try and be-

Jad Abumrad:

... he's a fat evangelist.

Robert Krulwich:

Celebrate fat in some way. [crosstalk 00:43:40] ...

Annie McEwen:

He does. He is ...

Robert Krulwich:

(Laughs).

Annie McEwen:

He was ... He is celebrating fat, and so he said that, you know, if as an artist you're trying to explore water, you don't just drink it out of a glass.

Arne Hendriks:

You swim in the ocean. You have to, uh, ride your bicycle through a rainstorm. This is where you would start to appreciate water in a, in a different way.

Annie McEwen:

So he's trying to do the same kinda thing with fat. Experience it in all these different ways.

Robert Krulwich:

Oh.

Jad Abumrad:

He's sick.

Arne Hendriks:

We want to walk on it. We wanted to sort of make fat angels. Not snow angels-

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs).

Arne Hendriks:

We wanna make fat angels.

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs).

Arne Hendriks:

Um, we just want to have this different, uh, relationship with fat, I guess.

Robert Krulwich:

And is that where he came up with the majestic al idea of building a fat island?

Annie McEwen:

That's right.

Jad Abumrad:

Did he make ... Did he actually make one?

Annie McEwen:

Yeah, yeah, he's making one right now. Uh, he's got like this like spot off the wharf in Amsterdam. And right there in the ocean water, he's building this little floating blob of fat.

Arne Hendriks:

We're melting fat. We're rendering fat from, uh, waste materials from the butcher. Sometimes we are just buying it, uh, and we're melting it and then pouring it onto the island, making it bigger and bigger.

Annie McEwen:

And- and right now it's like 15 feet across, and it's just- just like there hanging out.

Arne Hendriks:

Bopping up and down and side to side and it's sort of, you know, it's alive. It moves. It's- it, you know, it's always changing. So, um, we give ourselves maybe another half year or year and then it should be finished. And ...

Annie McEwen:

And could you ... How- how, actually how big do you hope to get it? Can you think of, uh, like as big as a truck or a blue whale?

Arne Hendriks:

Bigger.

Annie McEwen:

Bigger than a blue whale?

Arne Hendriks:

Like a baby ... no, no (laughs). Oh my god, that would be amazing.

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs)

Arne Hendriks:

Yes, of course my dreams are like that. My dream is that I wouldn’t be able to see the end of it.

Annie McEwen:

Oh. Wow.

Arne Hendriks:

But that's not real- realistic, I suppose.

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs).

Arne Hendriks:

I mean, um, the size of two or three trucks would be amazing already. And then you have a real thing. I mean, you'll probably be able to stand on it. That's the thing. I would like to be able to stand on it. That would be pretty good. Then and then you can realistically call it an island somehow.

Annie McEwen:

Definitely. Yep.

Arne Hendriks:

Yeah.

Annie McEwen:

Wow (laughs).

Arne Hendriks:

It's a bit strange. I know it's strange. But, um, but I know that I love it. Yeah, I know that when I'm there, I- I- I really love that little sort of thing that is there in the water.

Annie McEwen:

Do you have ... If- if we were to use this as, uh, as part of the show, I need you to give me some kind of, um, question that I can try and answer about fat. And it sounds like you are-

Arne Hendriks:

Yeah.

Annie McEwen:

... are doing a lot of questioning.

Arne Hendriks:

Well I- I would really like to know when like I'm very, very, very, uh, curious about the relationship between life and fat. Was there first life or first fat?

Annie McEwen:

Okay.

Arne Hendriks:

Uh, or- or even when did fat start? Because we know when certain species of animals started and when the ... We know more or less when the universe was created. Right?

Annie McEwen:

Yes.

Arne Hendriks:

But- but when did fat start? When was the first fat?

Annie McEwen:

Okay.

Arne Hendriks:

This is something that I would love to know.

Jad Abumrad:

When was the first fat?

Robert Krulwich:

The first fat.

Jad Abumrad:

That's interesting.

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah, and a- actually it turns out that the very, very first version of fat has been around for like a pretty long time.

Tom McCollom:

As long as our solar system has been around, before.

Jad Abumrad:

Wow.

Annie McEwen:

And so this is like big bang we're talking or?

Tom McCollom:

Well, no it would've been after that, after the star formed and exploded.

Annie McEwen:

Ah.

Tom McCollom:

Then you could start forming these things.

Annie McEwen:

Okay, so this is aquis geochemist, Tom McCollom.

Tom McCollom:

I'm i- I'm in my pajamas. (Laughs).

Annie McEwen:

Oh, that's so great. Got ahold of him during the Thanksgiving week. Um ... So Tom told me that the earliest, earliest version of fat was ...

Tom McCollom:

A carbon, hydrogen, oxygen compound.

Annie McEwen:

Called ...

Tom McCollom:

Fatty acid.

Annie McEwen:

Fatty acid.

Tom McCollom:

Yes.

Jad Abumrad:

Hydrogen, carbon, oxygen.

Annie McEwen:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So first you need hydrogen, and hydrogen comes along with the big bang. So we get that really early. Um, then we have to wait for a star to form, a star to get old, a star to die and explode and then you get carbon and oxygen.

Tom McCollom:

Yes.

Annie McEwen:

And that carbon and oxygen along with the hydrogen is now sorta swirling around in this interstellar space dust stuff. And when those three things come together, they start to make these- these shapes.

Tom McCollom:

So we have like a chain of carbons linked together, and each one of those carbons has a couple of hydrogens bonded to it.

Annie McEwen:

So you got a carbon, hydrogen chain. And then ...

Tom McCollom:

At one end is what's called the carboxyl group.

Annie McEwen:

And that's like a little group at the top that's got carbon, hydrogen and oxygen in it.

Tom McCollom:

Yeah.

Annie McEwen:

So, I like to think of it kinda like a flower. Like the stem of the flower is hydrogen, carbon. The petals of the flower contain oxygen as well as carbon and hydrogen. And there's fat, in it's little flower-like shape, long before the Earth existed. Floating around in space.

Jad Abumrad:

Mmm.

Annie McEwen:

So then the sun and the moon and the Earth and the planets form and you've got our solar system. And on the surface of the Earth after it's cooled, you got fatty acid. Now we don't know exactly how they got there whether they formed on the Earth itself or it came from like ...

Tom McCollom:

Comets and meteorites.

Annie McEwen:

... smacking into Earth. But the important thing is that fatty acids are there. And there's also a lot of water there. And the water is important because the- the thing about these little fatty acids is that ...

Tom McCollom:

It has a- a hydrophobic end to the molecule.

Annie McEwen:

So hydroph- phobic means like scared of water. So it- it-

Tom McCollom:

Yeah, yeah.

Annie McEwen:

... it- it is adverse.

Tom McCollom:

It does not like water.

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs). Okay.

Tom McCollom:

(Laughs).

Annie McEwen:

So our fatty acid flowers, the oxygen end, the, um, the flower end?

Tom McCollom:

That's the end that kind of likes water.

Annie McEwen:

And the stem end ...

Tom McCollom:

Doesn't like to be in water.

Annie McEwen:

And so if there's water, the stems are like, "Ah, we need to get away from it." And so all these flowers form this- you could imagine it like a- a bouquet that is so full that it is a sphere. So all the flowers are on the outside 'cause the love water and all the stems are on the inside and they're hiding from the water.

Jad Abumrad:

That's interesting. So all the fat- all the fat flowers join together because it allows the water hating parts to hide.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

And the watering loving parts to be on the surface.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

But this all like long pre-life.

Annie McEwen:

This is life has no idea what it is yet.

Jad Abumrad:

Wow.

Annie McEwen:

Life hasn't even thought about coming on the scene.

Jad Abumrad:

Interesting.

Annie McEwen:

But, there is a theory. I- it's one of many theories out there. But there's an idea that when these little fat flower bubbles form in the sort of primordial sea, they're kinda taking ...

Tom McCollom:

A little sample of the fluid that's surrounding them.

Annie McEwen:

Inside with them.

Tom McCollom:

So what's ever in your fluid ...

Annie McEwen:

Right.

Tom McCollom:

... just gonna get trapped inside there.

Annie McEwen:

So on the inside they've got some things.

Robert Krulwich:

Some visitors.

Annie McEwen:

Some visitors. And the theory goes that maybe one of the things around in the sea that ended up getting pulled inside one of those fat bubbles was a little floaty bit of genetic material. Like- like a little bit of RNA.

Annie McEwen:

And then for the first time ever, instead of random bits of RNA floating around in a soupy sea, you have a cell. For the first time you have an inside. You have a you separate from ...

Jad Abumrad:

Ah.

Annie McEwen:

... the soup around you.

Jad Abumrad:

So, the fat ball ...

Robert Krulwich:

These fatty little threesomes ...

Jad Abumrad:

Uh (Laughs).

Robert Krulwich:

... that floated in from outer space and maybe landed here or ...

Jad Abumrad:

Wow, that's so cool.

Robert Krulwich:

... maybe was the first container that made life possible.

Annie McEwen:

That's right.

Tom McCollom:

I don't think there is- is any way really to have anything like we call a living being without having a membrane, something to separate it from the surroundings.

Robert Krulwich:

Fat is really important, profoundly important.

Annie McEwen:

Fat is- is ... Without fat there would be no us. There would be no Arne.

Jad Abumrad:

I love it. We are, we- we are, we are, we are built in houses of fat.

Robert Krulwich:

So that means when you get your soap bar out in the shower, you should give it some respect.

Jad Abumrad:

Is- is soap fat?

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah, I think so.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah, it has fat in it.

Jad Abumrad:

Is it?

Male:

Yeah.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh.

Robert Krulwich:

Traditional soap is just fat I think.

Annie McEwen:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

Really?

Male:

Yeah.

Jad Abumrad:

Shit, I didn't know that.

Annie McEwen:

That's okay. You don't know everything, Jad.

Robert Krulwich:

I mean ...

Jad Abumrad:

(Laughs)

Annie McEwen:

But I think ... I'm actually really excited for Arne to hear this because I feel like ... I mean, what can convey awe the way that the beginning of life can?

Robert Krulwich:

Oh, you haven't told him this then?

Annie McEwen:

No, I haven't. Can you hear me?

Robert Krulwich:

Ooh, I wonder what he'll say.

Annie McEwen:

Arne?

Arne Hendriks:

Yeah.

Annie McEwen:

Oh great. Okay. So, I called Arne again, and this time he was at a conference.

Arne Hendriks:

All my coats are covered in fat now. I had to go to this conference. I didn't know what- what coat to wear-

Annie McEwen:

Oh no.

Arne Hendriks:

... because they're all fatty.

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs).

Arne Hendriks:

Luckily I found an old coat. But, you know, everything is covered in fat.

Annie McEwen:

(Laughs).

Arne Hendriks:

Oh yes, how this is taking over my life and I just have to deal with it. Anyway.

Annie McEwen:

Um, so, I wanted to tell you what my scientist told me about the earliest form of fat.

Arne Hendriks:

First fat.

Annie McEwen:

Can I tell you?

Arne Hendriks:

Yes, please.

Annie McEwen:

Okay. So, I'm trying to think of a way to put this succinctly. Okay, so I told him everything I learned. This world it makes a barrier, barrier between us and the rest of the rest of the world. It makes, it makes us.

Arne Hendriks:

Really?

Annie McEwen:

Yeah, yeah and it could be that theses like, these like early, early fatty acids are the thing that make life as we know it possible.

Arne Hendriks:

I suspected it. I suspected it.

Annie McEwen:

Really? Why?

Arne Hendriks:

Yes.

Annie McEwen:

How did ...

Arne Hendriks:

I don't know. Intuition I guess. It's beautiful. This is how-

Annie McEwen:

I know.

Arne Hendriks:

... it's supposed to be. This is what I've always dreamt of.

Annie McEwen:

Wh-

Arne Hendriks:

The berg starts to generate enthusiasm and love. And so this is-

Annie McEwen:

Uh-huh (affirmative).

Arne Hendriks:

... so nice that you are not telling me things that I don't know.

Annie McEwen:

Oh good.

Arne Hendriks:

This is great. This is why- this is why I lived for this kind of moment. So nice. (laughs).

Annie McEwen:

Thanks, guys.

Robert Krulwich:

Okay.

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah, nice Annie.

Annie McEwen:

Thanks.

Jad Abumrad:

A lot of people to thank, uh, for this, uh, these few episodes. This was actually a real group effort but particular props to producers Tracy Hunte and Matt Kielty for-

Robert Krulwich:

Yep.

Jad Abumrad:

... spearheading the whole thing.

Robert Krulwich:

And to Bethel.

Jad Abumrad:

And to Bethel Habte for a- a huge production assist.

Robert Krulwich:

Mm-hm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

And should you have a question that's- that's burning in your brain ...

Robert Krulwich:

We know exactly who to send it to.

Jad Abumrad:

... like a thousand suns.

Robert Krulwich:

Yes.

Jad Abumrad:

Send it to us at radiolabwnyc.org and also Krulwich@wnyc.org. He like-

Robert Krulwich:

No, no, no. I don't-

Jad Abumrad:

... to get them personally.

Robert Krulwich:

No, he don't particularly. Not particularly.

Jad Abumrad:

Send them directly to him.

Robert Krulwich:

I think they should go to the- to the post office box.

Jad Abumrad:

And, uh, he does particularly like it when you stand on the sidewalk just outside his window and say, "Krul, I'm furious with curiosity."

Robert Krulwich:

(Laughs), I don't because I'm on the fifth floor. You'd have to be very tall, or in a tree.

Jad Abumrad:

Okay, we should say- we should say goodbye. I'm- I'm Jad Abumrad.

Robert Krulwich:

I'm Robert Krulwich.

Jad Abumrad:

Thank you for listening and for questing with us.

Robert Krulwich:

Yes. Uh, yes, questing.

Robert Krulwich:

(singing)

Male:

Here's a question. (singing). What does this mean, you ask. I've been wondering all day too. Let's get to our next question. Here it is.

Female:

How did you do that?

Female:

Do what?

Female:

That.

Female:

What?

Female:

That.

Female:

What?

Male:

That.

Female:

What?

Male:

Time for another question so let's get to it, player.

Male:

To be-

Male:

Let me take another question.

Male:

... or not to be.

Male:

What's the question?

Male:

That is the question.

Male:

That is the question.

Male:

Wow.

Male:

I'm looking for a couple witnesses today.

Male:

Why does the heathen rage-

Male:

Give me a testimony.

Male:

Why ...

Male:

I know.

Male:

... do the righteous suffer?

Male:

And I know that I know.

Male:

God, that don't make no sense.

Male:

I know that I know that I know that I know.

Male:

Why do some things-

Male:

Where you ask God. Why?

Male:

Why? Why?

Female:

To play the message, press two.

Tim Adler:

Hello, this is Timothy Adler, father of Simon Adler from Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Thorn Wheeler. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Maria Matasar Padia is our Managing Director.

Tim Adler:

Our staff include Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, David Gable, Bethel Habte, Tracy Hunte, Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Latif Nassar, Melissa O'Donnell, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster.

Tim Adler:

With help form Amanda Erinchezk, Shima Oliaee, David Fox, Nagar Fatale, Stevie Wang and Katy Ferguson. Our fact checker is Michelle Erik.

Female:

End of message.

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