Episode notes:



Alison's website is www.cranialspasm.com and she can be followed on Twitter @cranialspasm

Episode Transcript:



Episode 128--Alison Baziak

Paul: Welcome to episode 128 with my guest, listener Alison Baziak. I'm Paul Gilmartin, this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, an hour or two of honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically diagnosed conditions and past traumas to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. It's not a doctor's office, it's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com, that's also the Twitter name that you can follow me at. And go check out the web site; there's all kinds of surveys you can take there, you can also see how other people responded to surveys, and you can be a part of the forum, you can support the show, and actually I am...My Lamictal is about two months into taking it, I think, a month and a half maybe, no, two months, and it's going great. It's really going great and I'm back in the woodshop woodworking and I couldn't be happier. So I'm going to be raffling off a cutting board for monthly donors and the cutoff to submit a number to guess is Wednesday, whatever...Could I be less fucking prepared for this?? This Wednesday is the cutoff, at noon, to get your guess in. I'm going to pick a number between one and five hundred, and monthly donors, the number of guesses that you get is based on how much you are giving per month. So if you donate five bucks per month you get one guess, if you're donating 20 bucks per month you get four guesses, you know, etcetera etcetera. And people who have transcribed episodes in the past, I decided that I think it's fair to include you, should you want a cutting board, to get a guess, 'cause a lot of work goes into transcribing an episode. So for each episode you've transcribed, you also get a guess. Right now I'm in my head about 'Oh, you and your big cutting board, it's so fucking special. Listen to you talking about it like it's the lottery.' Um, I gotta say, it's a pretty beautiful cutting board. It's walnut and it's maple and I'll be posting a picture of it shortly. So, um, yeah, feeling really, really good, and thank you for all of your support these last couple of months. Um, I know some of you were worried about me and I always kind of feel like I'm gonna pull out of it eventually and I always do. Um, the other thing that I wanted to mention was this episode with listener Alison Baziak was recorded about ten months ago, um, so just know some of the stuff I was talking about, like the med that I was on back then, I've since stopped taking because I was gaining weight, and it worked for a while but then it stopped. The other thing I wanted to mention was Podfest, LA Podfest. I'm gonna be a part of that, and the day that I'll be doing a live version of that is Sunday, October 6th, and it's gonna be here in LA and for more information you can go to LAPodfest.com. And still planning to come to Toronto November 15 and 16. I think that is about it for the messages.

Let's get into a survey before we get to our interview with Alison. I got two emails from people that I'm not gonna read, I'm just gonna give you the gist of them. One was from a person who wants to be referred to as Future Counselor, and she feels like my stance on porn is anti-porn. And I basically wrote her back and said I'm not anti-porn, per se, just for me I'm anti-porn and for people who use it to numb themselves, or for the people who participate in porn for the money to the detriment of their self-esteem. That's the only ways that I'm anti-porn. If you enjoy it and it's not addictive or numbing for you, and it's not degrading your self-esteem, masturbate away.

And the other email I got was from a listener named Puddin' who I've corresponded with in the past, and I don't really have time to read her email, but it was a very, very sweet kind of heart-breaking email, and the gist of it was that it hurts her sometimes when I talk about...She's a parent who left her family, she didn't realize that she was kind of under the spell of her mental illness when she left her family to be with a guy who it wound up not working out with, and she agonizes over that decision 12 years later and has trouble forgiving herself. And sometimes she feels like on this podcast we make parents out to be villains, and I apologize to any parents that feel that way. That's never my intention. My intention is to get the people who went through stuff as kids to be able to have compassion for themselves and to...Cause a lot of them can't get into that head space that their parents might have done something that hurt them. And my intent is not to make it sound like the parent did that intentionally, but that wall has to come down to be able to heal, to have compassion for ourselves. Because a lot of us feel like we're throwing our parents under the bus because many of them did awesome things for us. So, that's my stance on that.

And the email I want to read is from a listener who calls herself Annie, and she says 'Paul, how's it going. I recently started listening to your podcast. I don't really have any mental illnesses right now, although i used to have depression and slight anxiety I'm not really like your regular listeners. I just have a thing going on that does concern my head that I would like your opinion on and to know if I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm a 21-year-old girl who would define herself as very traditional and old-school. I'm straight and feminine and very proud, I love being a woman and i love stereotypical things about being a woman, like having the man pay for everything, cooking, cleaning, wearing skirts and dresses. I really dislike wearing pants or sneakers or anything a boy would wear. My question is this: Is this normal? Like another thing is my parents are urging me to get a job. That is not a priority to me. I would prefer doing what I'm doing now, cleaning the house and occasionally cooking. I don't even want to get a car because "boys drive me around". The only thing I want in life is to be a mom. I don't really see a problem with this but wondered if I was the only one, or if it is okay to be this dependent on a man.' And I wrote her back and said 'I'm so glad you like the podcast. Great question. I'm not sure I have an answer to it because I think it's a really complicated issue and someone would probably need to know you and your life more intimately, like a therapist, to weigh in on it. Here's what I am safe in saying: it's not healthy to want to be taken care of or rescued. it is healthy to want to divide responsibilities and a partnership and fine to have preferences for what feels good and natural to you, but sometimes we have to wind up doing things we'd rather not do. The not wanting to drive yourself did strike me as something that could potentially be problematic or indicate a deeper issue. I think a therapist, especially one who deals with couples, would be a great person to take these questions to. I would also add that it might be important to not be too rigid in matching our gender identity, masculine or feminine, with our duties and obligations. I think part of being an adult and a spouse is stepping up and doing things sometimes when you don't feel like doing it. And finally, looking for a man to "complete you", even though that's not what you said, that was not the words you chose, that is kind of the feeling I got from you, is that it can be a really dangerous road and it often invites men or women who, in the beginning love that feeling of being needed and depended upon, but it often plays into a sickness of theirs which is a need for control, and when the initial rush of a relationship begins to wear off the problems and resentments often then begin to show. Because control can be really addicting for partners and both need to know how to not over- or under-use their rightful power. And they're really gray areas that are hard to talk about in a general way, but I took a crack at it and I hope that makes sense. So, go to therapy, that's basically what I'm saying. Talk to a therapist or a professional. Or listen to a long-winded podcaster.

Intro/theme music

Paul: I'm here with listener Alison Baziak and she's down here in southern California for Podfest, first annual Podfest--

Alison: Hopefully more to come.

Paul: I'm sure there will be. It already seems like it's a big success. A lot of people coming down to check it out and a lot of podcasters doing it. I'm a little bummed they're not doing any non-comedy podcasts this first year but maybe they'll include some--

Alison: There's always next year.

Paul: There's always next year. So we were talking before we started recording that you're nervous.

Alison: Not anymore!

Paul: Not? Good!

Alison: I'm actually really comfortable talking with you, so, good.

Paul: Good. Where would be the best place to start? You were describing yourself before we started recording. What was the sentence that you said?

Alison: I said that I'm neurotic, obsessive, paranoid, oddly narcissistic and full of incredible self-loathing.

Paul: Human beings, we're so complicated. We're so complicated. You know, the thing that always puzzles me is the narcissist with low self-esteem. Although I guess if you think about it narcissism is a way of trying to fill that bottomless pit that 'you're not enough'. So you figure ' if I can just obsess about myself I'll be able to fill that hole'.

Alison: Yeah, I haven't gotten to the point where I get really depressed if people don't like the pictures I put up on Facebook or Instagram or anything like that, so, I'm less narcissistic than some of my friends, but...

Paul: You're 29 years old.

Alison: I am.

Paul: And you were raised by parents who were very attentive.

Alison: Yes. My family is from the eastern side of the United States and my parents decided to move about an hour away from the rest of our family. So our family was my dad, my mom, my brother, myself and occasionally my aunt because she came to help out.

Paul: And your brother, older, younger?

Alison: Three years older. And when I was six my mother started having difficulty feeling things on the left side of her face. Turns out that she had an enormous brain tumor and had to have two surgeries to have it removed because it was that large. And it was 1989. In between the first and second surgery, my grandfather died, so--

Paul: Were you close to him?

Alison: To a certain degree. He had a stroke before I was born so talking to him was very stilted and one-sided. But we went to visit my mother after the second surgery, half of her head was shaved and she had metal staples in it in the shape of a question mark, and I remember crawling into bed and pulling out a storybook and asking her to read to me and she started crying because she knew what the words were supposed to mean but she just couldn't vocalize it.

Paul: Oh my God. And you were six?

Alison: I was six. And it makes my aunt cry when she hears me recount that, and I actually mentioned to my parents the possibility of me being recorded so we had a discussion and my dad was a little teary about it.

Paul: Yeah? Why?

Alison: He had to deal with a lot. My parents originally got married without wanting kids, so they waited until later in their marriage to have them. Let's see, they were born in 1949 and my brother was born in 1980, so they were 31, maybe? That doesn't ...I don't know math.

Paul: '49, and he was born in '80? Yeah, I think that's right.

Alison: So, yeah, they waited until they had been married for eight years, and had my brother who has worse ADHD than I do, and then had me. And then a bunch of stuff happened with my mom's brain and we were sent to different friends' house like every other night, we would go to a family friend's, then we'd go to family, then we'd go to church friends, and then we'd go all over the place for about two or three weeks. And my dad would come home broken because he would just feel like he lost a part of himself. My mom was incredibly left-brained, and after the surgery she's now completely right brained. She has no feeling on the left side of her face, which is pretty funny when they go on vacation, especially when they were in Australia and got sand in her eye and had to wear an eye patch on a cruise.

Paul: Wow.

Alison: But, yeah, my closeness to my family has been both a blessing and a curse, I think. It's really hard when you see two people that are so in love and don't fight in front of you, at all, never heard them say one bad thing about each other, and they never let us play the other against them, so "Well mom said we could do this", so dad would say "Oh, OK". He's say "No, no, no that's not right." So they had parenting down, and they were very supportive and very encouraging with certain things. But it also kind of put this thought in my head that my parents are always going to be there. So the first time something bad happens, I think 'Where's my mom?' or 'Where's my dad?' So it's kind of hard listening to your show and hear people talk about a horrible upbringing, or even like a moderately terrible upbringing, and think 'No, I had it pretty good. Why am I so fucked up then?' It's...

Paul: I'm glad you're a guest, I'm really glad you're a guest, because I think there's a lot of people that probably feel the way you do, Allie, and that can then exacerbate the negative feelings that are already there, because then we can't have any compassion for ourselves because we think we're being a baby or weak or all these other things. Maybe I shouldn't put words in people's mouths, but--

Alison: Oh, no, I'm completely competitive, I'm like 'Oh no, no, no, I should be more fucked up than this other person because I can feel the feelings that are in me and they can't feel it. But my feelings are valid, goddammit.'

Paul: Say that again, because that confused me.

Alison: My inner brain is kind of an asshole, where I'll have contradictory things happen, like where I think my points aren't valid but then something else in my head will say 'No, no, that's logical. Fuck that side of your brain.' So I'm a very scatterbrained person, so it's really hard for me to pay attention to "the voice"--and I'm using air quotes because I don't actually have voices in my head--I feel the need to clarify that all the time.

Paul: Ideas? Would it be fair to call them ideas?

Alison: Yeah, definitely.

Paul: Thoughts? Like?

Alison: A thought like, 'Well, you live in Portland now, there are seven bridges here. Drive off one of them.' Well no, that's not logical. And I'll have this conversation in my head and I'll go 'Where did that come from? I don't get it.' And it's so hard for me to figure out where it's coming from and how the brain works, I'm just like...

Paul: Is it possible that because there was such a sense of security when you were a kid, that now adult life is so scary, and there's an anticipation that it's all gonna fall apart, and the idea of suicide would be a way of just rushing the failure that's gonna happen anyway?

Alison: Oh yeah, everything is ruined forever. Always. I guess we could talk about that.

Paul: OK, yeah, let's talk about that.

Alison: I am a three-time failure of suicide.

Paul: In your mind you're a three-time failure. Let's talk about it, because I have a feeling you're being harder on yourself than...I have yet to have a guest on this podcast that was not too hard on themselves, but go ahead. Let's see if you're the first.

Alison: The three failures are suicide attempts. The first one was pills, but I didn't actually take them.

Paul: How old were you?

Alison: Probably just going into high school. Fifteen, maybe. And I remember sitting and staring at them on the counter and I didn't know what they were. Now I know that they were Prozac, so I don't know if they would have done anything, but it was 'You know if I probably just take all those and go raid the liquor cabinet, this'll all go away.' Because I think as a kid everything is catastrophic. Everything that I was trying to deal with after having such little experience in life, was too much for me to handle. I couldn't handle friends leaving and people going elsewhere and coming to grips with my own body, so I just sat there, stared at the pills, and then heard the garage door opening. So I put them back in the cabinet and my mom came in and I was doing my homework.

Paul: So it wasn't really a suicide attempt but you were very close.

Alison: It was a suicide contemplation, I guess.

Paul: Yeah.

Alison: The second time--oh, God, this is embarrassing. I was always a fat kid, and I had a gastric bypass in 2009. But in high school I was a fat kid and you're gonna laugh at this--please laugh at this because it will make me feel better--I tried to hang myself and the tree branch broke.

Paul: That's awesome.

Alison: So I think that it was--

Paul: When I say it's awesome, it's awesome that you can laugh at it and laughing about stuff like that with somebody is food for my soul.

Alison: I have a sense of humor about my psychoses. I think that they're stuff that I have to suffer through, but I can suffer with a smile and I can make people laugh doing it. I'll tell people my problems but hopefully I'll make them laugh along the way.

Paul: What do you remember thinking or feeling when the branch broke?

Alison: I think the words that came out of my mouth were 'What the fuck??!' and then I got up, untied the noose, and just left the rope lying in the woods. I should have taken that broken branch and hung it up in my room as a badge of honor, like 'Hahaha, I could not foil myself.' Or, no--

Paul: You did foil yourself. Yeah.

Alison: I did foil myself! I did. [Sigh] 'Fat Ali.'

Paul: Is that what you called yourself?

Alison: Not out loud, but, yeah.

Paul: What were the thoughts that you had about yourself when you were an adolescent?

Alison: That I was overweight, unlovable, I was too heavy and my hips were too huge, and they still are, but you know, that's fine.

Paul: What do you mean they're too huge?

Alison: I knock shit over all the time, Paul! Like I walk by a counter and there goes a glass. Well, crap.

Paul: Is it possible that you're clumsy? And that your hips are OK? Is that a possibility?

Alison: Yes, it is possible, but I never felt normal, like I never felt like a normal kid. I had to shop at plus-size shops and I was 278 pounds in high school and I was just like, 'You know what? I'm not the best-looking person so I'm gonna be the weird person.' So I shaved my head. And then, I don't know how it started, but I started cutting myself cause I was just like 'I'm gonna take out my frustration at my own body by making myself hurt.'

Paul: What was that experience like, the first time you cut?

Alison: Terrifying, actually.

Paul: Did you draw blood?

Alison: I did. I didn't--

Paul: Where did you cut yourself?

Alison: My inner thighs.

Paul: Was that so you could hide it?

Alison: Yes. I never wanted to do my wrists because my parents aren't stupid, they know what to look for. My dad worked for the chief medical examiner and my mom worked in a prison. They know if wounds are self-inflicted. So I did a lot of that to hide it, wore jeans instead of shorts, and just used the 'Well, I don't really like the way my legs look' excuse.

Paul: What would your parents...Would you go to your parents with your anxiety about how you didn't like how you looked and your weight, and stuff like that? Was this all just kept inside? Was there any kind of counseling on their part? Was there a connection to another human being, or was this all just you trapped in your head?

Alison: I don't necessarily know if I actually went to my parents and said 'I don't like the way I look, I don't like this, I don't like that' but I do know that my parents noticed because it was "Are you really gonna eat that extra piece of bread?" or "Are you really gonna have another glass of soda?" And it was more passive-aggressive than it was blatant like "You're purposefully hurting yourself by putting too much food in your mouth."

Paul: What feeling would you get when you would reach for that extra...What would the feeling be when food went into your mouth, and what would the thoughts be in your brain?

Alison: At first it was sweet, sweet rebellion, Paul. Because when someone said "Are you sure you wanna eat that other piece of bread?" I was like 'Fuck yes, I do. Yes! How dare you tell me? I'm a teenager, how dare you tell me what to do with my life!' 'Cause I was dramatic.

Paul: At what age did the overeating start?

Alison: I don't even remember. I was always a pudgy kid, like I wasn't Chunk from The Goonies, but I was still plump.

Paul: Was there a moment where you realized, 'Oh, food is an issue for me'.

Alison: Yes, probably 13. Actually, no, I can tell you when I started gaining a bunch of weight. I stopped dancing when I was 11 and continued to eat like I was still dancing, and so I was throwing carbohydrates in myself and I wasn't exercising any of it off, so it was just starting to pack on. And when I was 13 I just took a look at myself and went 'Who is this person that's staring at me in the mirror? This is...I mean, I know those eyes but what's happening with that pudge?'

Paul: Was there a reason why you stopped dancing?

Alison: It was never really a passion of mine, it was more of something to do socially. I had a tendency of getting yelled at for staring at myself in the mirror. I was just like 'Look at what arms can do! And that arm is attached to me, so I can tell what the feeling is of lifting the arm and doing a plie...' So I was making a connection with the actual physical response that your body has when you're making movement and what it looked like while you were doing it. So I was fascinated with it, and I like seeing how things work. So it was never really my thing, and the woman that taught, she was very nasal and very loud, and "Alison! Am I gonna have to close the curtain?" So I was 11 and I was like 'I don't even wanna deal with this anymore' so I just walked out one day and said 'Mom, I don't wanna do this' and she said "OK".

Paul: Is it fair to say that you've always felt a little disassociated from your body?

Alison: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Paul: OK, 'cause that was the thought that struck me when you were talking about looking at yourself in the mirror. I got the feeling that you almost couldn't believe that you existed because you felt invisible or something. That was just a thought that popped into my mind.

Alison: No, that does make a lot of sense. I'm the younger child, and my mom actually apologized for this when they came to visit me. She said "I'm so sorry that we didn't pay as much attention to you as we did your brother." And I was like 'I don't...What do you mean? I don't think you did.' She said "With all of his ADHD issues and having to deal with things like that, I feel sometimes that I let you slide through the cracks and I'm really sorry about it." Alison: And she talked with me about the cutting and she was like "I didn't know what to do so I gave you to a therapist" or "I gave you to--" Which is the one that gives you medication?

Paul: A psychiatrist.

Alison: Psychiatrist? OK. So she gave me to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist put me on Prozac and then--

Paul: I should back up. There are some carnival workers who are licensed to dispense psych meds, but they're few and far between.

Alison: It's very possible that she did work at a carnival because she did smell a lot like candy corn.

Paul: So go ahead. I completely killed your flow for a very sub-par joke.

Alison: I love it! OK, so she sent me to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist did a lot of "Mmm hmm. Really." Writing things down, I'm just sitting there talking, and she's essentially just taking notes of everything that I'm saying, and it's not a conversation. And so I would leave there and I wouldn't even remember what we had talked about. And so my mom would ask "Oh what did you guys talk about, if you don't mind me asking?" and I was like 'Honestly I don't remember.' And I would have told my mom, I tell my mom a lot, actually, but I had no idea. And she said "Well why don't you take notes?" and I was like 'You know what, that's a great idea.' So obstinate teenager Ali shows up with a note pad. 'So, how does my depression make YOU feel?' and I kind of caught her off-guard and she was like "What?" And then after about three sessions of me doing that she was like "I think that we've done pretty much everything that we can do here. I think the medication is working great so I'll talk to you in about three months." And I was like 'Fine.' Never talked to her again.

Paul: You know it struck me as you were describing talking to her and her just kind of coldly taking notes that what you were looking for--

Alison: I was looking for a confidante.

Paul: I was just gonna say, somebody who can reflect your experience back to you, and it actually made what you were feeling worse, which was a feeling of being invisible.

Alison: Yes. I felt like I was talking to empty air, and as much as I like the feeling of doing that on a stage somewhere, I know in my brain that there are people out in the audience. That woman, all I could hear was scribble scribble scribble, and it felt...I felt like I was being abandoned by a person that was supposed to be offering me the support that my parents were paying for.

Paul: If I can just interject for a second, I got an email from a listener a little while ago kind of wanting to know what type of professional help to reach out for, and basically what I said was there are social workers, there are therapists, and there are psychiatrists. And I'm sure I'm probably leaving something else out but those are kind of the three major ones. And psychiatrists can prescribe you meds, they can also do some therapy and counseling but they tend not to be as good at that as therapists. Therapists cannot prescribe medication; they are good for going to on a weekly basis and telling all the nitty gritty things of your life, they're good at reflecting back to you and having you feel felt. And they're the ones that are the good confidantes. There may be some psychiatrists that are good with that too, but they tend not to be good in that area. So ideally, if you needed to take meds you would see a psychiatrist for your meds, see them every couple of months, maybe twice a year or more if your meds need tweaking. But you don't depend on them for the baring of your soul. You need to give them the broad strokes so they can understand how to medicate you, but the week-to-week blow-by-blow accounts of your life are really best served by going to a therapist, and they tend to be more educated and tend to be more compassionate and good with the helping you feel that feeling felt, as I said. So I'm sure that's probably obvious to some people out there listening, but to the ones that don't know that I feel like that's an important distinction to make. And ideally if you have the money and the time, going to both is the best of both worlds, that's what I do.

Alison: Well, and the thing is I didn't know that there was a difference between that and I miss my therapist from the East coast, like she'll occasionally send me a text message and I'll send her a text message and she'll say "How's everything going?" and I'll be like 'This is how everything's going'. And I did not realize that I could find someone like that until I got the gastric bypass, because they put you through this rigamaroll, like you have to lose a certain amount of weight, you have to go through a psych eval, and when you go through the psych eval they have you fill out multiple choice questions--don't know why, but that's OK--and then you talk to the therapist for half an hour and she basically determines whether or not you're a good candidate. Because they wanna make sure that you're not going to react negatively to the surgery. And after spending half an hour with her I was like 'I feel amazing, I feel fantastic. This is a good thing. I don't wanna leave without asking her.' So I asked her 'Are you taking any clients?' and she said "Normally, no." And I was like 'Oh.' Then she was like "But I have Saturdays free." So she made a special accommodation to fit me in.

Paul: That's beautiful. That must have made you feel just so awesome.

Alison: It did, and I really liked talking to her. And it's not like she went away forever, it's just I'm not there so it's difficult to talk with her but I loved making her laugh, which I know sounds terrible--

Paul: No it doesn't.

Alison: --and weird, but with all the negative that I would throw at her...I didn't always get along with my sister-in-law, and so I'd go there and I'd just rail into the personality of a person that I didn't really know very well and she'd take it. She would just sit there and let me vent my frustration about all of it and occasionally give me a little bit of feedback as to what it was that I was saying and then I'd crack a joke and we'd both laugh for about five minutes. And it felt so good and it's so validating that...Like it felt like she was actually listening to me and that she could repeat back to me, well, I guess parroting what it is you're saying. It helps. Well, it helped me. I don't know if it'll help everybody but it definitely helped me.

Paul: And that is the beauty of a good therapist, is that it's a template for further relationships, because you understand 'Oh my God, I feel understood. I feel felt. Somebody is interpreting my shame and my crazy and letting me know that I'm actually pretty normal. This is just how my brain reacts to feeling overwhelmed.

Alison: And you might not want to hear this, but you actually are quite good at the whole therapy thing yourself, because there are things that you've said back to me that I would not have made that connection. I did feel invisible for the longest time, and it was so strange feeling like the elephant in the room, when I felt like I looked like the elephant in the room. So I never would have attributed that to feeling invisible. So thank you.

Paul: Well, you're welcome. And maybe I relate because my brother had some health issues when he was a kid. He had allergies and he was going to the doctor a lot, and he didn't like going to the doctor and he hated getting shots, and this is when he was a little kid, he would kind of throw tantrums, and it gave me such anxiety that my goal was stay under the radar, don't make waves. But I think the downside of that is that you then don't think about your needs and you begin to not have a sense of self. So I know how that feels and it's not like a trauma, it's like a thousand cuts.

Alison: Yes.

Paul: You know, and you feel--

Alison: Is that like origami cranes? Like after a thousand you get ultimate peace? I can tell you no. No.

Paul: Because you don't have any one thing that you can point to, and my mom has apologized to me many times, and said "We left you behind as a kid, you were such a sweet little boy, we should have paid more attention to you." And I try to tell her 'Hey look, you guys were doing the best you could.' It's just a situation that's just part of being human, parents aren't perfect, and your parents sound like they really tried, they sound like really good, sweet people.

Alison: They're fantastic, and they're still very supportive and whenever something happens, my first thought is 'I hope my parents can help me fix this', which is terrible, because I'm really not self-sufficient at all. Like, I went into debt when I was 24, I mean it wasn't much, ten grand, but also making minimum wage, it was a humongous hole that I dug myself into. And I did not want to admit to my parents that I needed help, because I knew that they would help me. And I was of the mindset 'No, I'm an adult now, I need to do this on my own', and then it just felt like...Have you ever seen somebody with a wooden plank and then people just putting stones, and stones, and stones on top of it until the person is crushed underneath? That is exactly how every single bill felt when it came to my apartment. Money is one of the most confusing things to me because I want it, I know I want it, I just don't know how to get it. Or what to do with it when I have it. I'm like 'Let's go buy things and make myself feel better.'

Paul: You know, something I wanted to rewind and talk about is there seems to be a dichotomy between the feeling invisible and then feeling like you're afraid that your parents aren't there like they were for you. Was there a transition when you suddenly did feel like your parents were there for you? Because being afraid that you're gonna fail and your parents aren't gonna be able to bail you out, to me kind of insinuates that there was a time when they were there and very supportive, and you felt that connection to them.

Alison: Well, with the debt, it wasn't my first time. I got like two grand in debt. But my dad paid it and I just paid him weekly, and it was very simple, no fuss, no muss. 'Wipe your hands clean, that was taken care of, I don't need to worry about it, my credit rating is going through the roof, this is awesome.' And then when I decided to move out of my parents' house and get an apartment I started amassing all this debt. I was like 'How did this all happen so quickly?' And my first thought was 'No you're an adult now, you left the house, therefore you should not feel like you can ask for help'. Which I should not have listened to that side of my brain 'cause it would have been a couple thousand dollars less in the whole payback thing. But it was telling me 'No, you put yourself here and daddy already bailed you out before you rich, spoiled little princess'. And the thing is my parents weren't rich, I was raised in the era of instant gratification. Like 'Oh, I can get a credit card when I'm 18. Oh, I have a cell phone, I can look up movie times immediately. What's that, you wanna know what this word means? Let's go to Wikipedia!' Everything that I want, I can get instantaneously. So I was just in this gluttonous tailspin, I guess. Like, 'OK, I don't feel good. I'm going to buy myself a $150 purse because that will make me feel better.' Then the bill would come and I'd say 'Oh, I spent $150 on a purse and I don't have that. What now?' What would I do? I'd eat something to make myself feel better. And then once that was done, I'd either have a stomach ache or a few extra pounds, and I was never fully aware of taking accountability for myself. I was just like 'Eh, something will be fixed. Something can fix it. Mom and dad will fix it.'

Paul: Have you ever thought of going to a 12-step program, or a support group for food or shopping issues?

Alison: No, and I know that I should, it's something that would be so easy for me to go to and listen to and find confirmation that this happens with other people, but I'm just...I'd like to say stubborn, but no, I'm lazy. I'm not motivated to make myself better at this moment. Ech.

Paul: Well, you know, for most people, if they have an addiction the pain has to outweigh the fear of going for help. It has to get to that point for most people to reach out for help. And it happens when it happens. And I'm not saying that that's what you should be doing, I have no idea, I'm not your therapist. But I guess I just wanted to let you know that places--should you ever feel like those things are...like you're becoming powerless over them and it's making your life really fucked--it's just nice to know that there's a solution out there. There are 12-step groups for almost anything. I think there's like over 30 different 12-step groups for all different kinds of addictions. In fact, I should create a page on the web site with all the various support groups, 12-step and otherwise, that are out there. Does your therapist ever mention anything about that?

Alison: When I told her my trepidation of leaving, she was very encouraging. She was like "This is something you need to do. You need to have your life start. You're 29 years old, you have lived within a 20-mile radius of your parents for your entire life. You need to do this." She was like "When you get to Portland, look for a gastric bypass support group, and then work from there." So it's more of a matter of me not having insurance right now, and I know that there's no-fee therapy available.

Paul: But a gastric bypass support group should be free, shouldn't it?

Alison: To be honest I haven't really looked into it. I haven't been--

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: Well, the thing is I've only had two panic attacks. I had one panic attack over money, and I had another panic attack because my cell phone died. I am incredibly materialistic, Paul! What the fuck?!

Paul: Most of us are. Most of us are.

Alison: But I want to buy all of the things and then I want someone else to move them for me.

Paul: The other thing that we were talking about is you had filled out the Shame and Secrets survey, and you had shared your responses with me. And talk about some of the stuff that you talked about on your survey, if you're comfortable.

Alison: OK. The thing is, I like to say that I have no shame. I have guilt over my parents possibly having shame from what it is that I have to say, but for the most part I'm open and honest about things if people ask me. Because I find that it's best that it's best to be honest about things, than to lie about it and get caught in it. Did all that as a teenager, learned my lesson. Yay, growth! My biggest shame, I guess, is the easiest way to classify it is I am completely infatuated with a married man. Yep.

Paul: And how do you know him and what is your relationship with him?

Alison: OK, this is gonna sound bad. I met him online.

Paul: Sounds bad.

Alison: He and I are friends and we talk back and forth through various emailing, messaging, stuff like that. I should probably clarify it as not you, Paul. It is not.

Paul: Then this interview is over.

Alison: Dammit! I feel terrible about feeling the way about this guy that I do. I mean he lives in a completely different continent.

Paul: Do you know him very well from online?

Alison: Surprisingly, yes. It all started very, I guess, innocently. It was just chatting back and forth, things in common, and then confiding in my neuroses, psychoses, whatever they may be, and his, and he shared very little about his marriage, which I thought was a little odd because it was obviously something that was a part of him.

Paul: Were these exchanges flirtatious?

Alison: A little bit.

Paul: On whose part?

Alison: I hope on both, 'cause if not then I'm gonna feel terrible. Actually I already feel terrible. But then it eventually progressed and he started talking about his wife and it was...I didn't like the things that were being said to me. I was like 'Why is this person being treated so poorly by somebody that they love?'

Paul: He was being treated poorly by his wife, and he was sharing that stuff with you?

Alison: Yeah. And it just hit me one day, I was like 'I don't know if I know what love is but it might actually be this' and then I went 'Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not that girl. I've been cheated on and the idea of even contributing to something like that is...No. Nope. Get that out of your head.' So of course, when I say get it out of my head, where does my stubborn brain go? "Let's think about him all the time!" But just more like a fleeting 'Oh, I haven't talked to him in a while.' But it's not something that I'm proud of, but it's also not something that I'm necessarily ashamed of. Because it's not like we're ever gonna meet but I also am like 'Oh, I'd hate to be the wife and find conversations talking about it, and just be like "why aren't you open with me?"' But it is what it is, I guess.

Paul: You know the thing that strikes me whenever I hear about somebody that is infatuated with somebody online, the first thing that I always think is that while yes, there may be a connection and that you have similarities or whatever, but it always strikes me that there is a safety to that distance that makes it more attractive.

Alison: You hit the nail on the head. He can't hurt me.

Paul: Yeah.

Alison: He can't hurt me. I already know where this is going--nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. And it's...I mean yeah, I've had sex dreams about him, and they've been so vivid I've had to write them down so that they could get out of my head. But I know that this is something that is not going to happen ever, and so I'm just like 'Meh.'

Paul: What is the fear of letting a guy get close to you?

Alison: I was with somebody that was incredibly abusive, and it's not great but at that point in my life I thought that I deserved it so it is what it is.

Paul: Was he physically, verbally--

Alison: All of the above.

Paul: Both. What were some of the things that he would say or do to you?

Alison: He would constantly break up with me. Constantly. Like "I'm going away for the weekend, so I guess this is it." What??

Paul: And how would you react?

Alison: I'd cry the first couple times. But it got to the point where I was just like 'OK, welcome back.'

Paul: 'Cause you thought 'I might as well settle for this because I'm not gonna find somebody else to love me'?

Alison: I don't deserve anything more than this. I don't deserve to be happy, I don't deserve the relationship that my parents had because I caused so much heartbreak for my parents.

Paul: How did you cause heartbreak for your parents?

Alison: I stole from them. I would constantly lie to them and I cut myself, and I still to a certain degree self-mutilate, and it's more of a compulsion now than it is an actual like desire or drive, but I feel like whenever my parents look at me I know that they say that they're proud of me, but I just feel like they're so disappointed in me. And it's probably all in my head, like I meet people and I'm like 'That person hated me' but it's because I have such a low...it's not even a low self-image, it's more of a thought that if someone could like me, and know all of the stuff about me, that there is something wrong with them, because I know that I don't deserve this. I don't deserve to be happy. I think a part of me thinks that I'm destined for failure.

Paul: And unlovable.

Alison: Yeah, I think that it's a broken tree branch every time and I just shrug it off now because that's the norm. I wanted to be a writer and I got rejection letters and I wanted to be a singer, I actually wanted to go to the Academy of Music and Dramatic Arts. And my dad was like "There are a lot of girls going" which I immediately took to mean 'You're too fat and ugly and not talented enough so you should be an accountant', which didn't happen. I keep saying 'It is what it is', and it sounds so dismissive for me to hate myself the level that I do. I also love myself a lot, like there are days that are so wonderful and the sun is shining, everything is beautiful, and then there are days when I'm just...I can't turn any lights on in my apartment. I can't look at myself in the face because 'You're worthless, you didn't go to college. You're worthless, you don't have a full-time job, you don't have insurance, you can't talk to a therapist'. It starts to pile up like the rocks on the wooden plank and sometimes it's suffocating. But you know it, you've dealt with the escapism with the video games.

Paul: Oh, yeah. You name it, I've escaped into it, Ali. You name it. 'Cause it's nirvana.

Alison: It's absolute bliss, getting out of my head and not being me.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: It's wonderful to just go into a book or write for a character and just pretend that I don't exist. Because, as much as I didn't like being invisible, sometimes I just don't like being visible. I don't like people seeing me. I don't like people asking about the scars on my arm, 'cause I now pick at scabs. I don't cut or anything like that, but I pick at them and now my entire arm is scarred. And I can't fix it and I don't know, I'm sorry. Now you just got a bundle of sad.

Paul: No, this is what this show is about, is letting that out.

Alison: Sometimes you need to do it. Like I don't mind crying, crying is sometimes necessary.

Paul: Absolutely. Absolutely. I wish I could cry more. I love crying. It feels so cleansing.

Alison: The funny thing is, hearing things like "So-and-so's dad died". 'Oh, okay. What do we need to do?' I think I learned at a young age that I didn't want to show weakness to people, especially my mom. Like I never want my mom to see me cry because I know it hurts her and so it's just translated to everyone else. I don't want someone to see my pain and have that affect them negatively. I would put anyone else in front of me, like their well-being, in front of me. But that's obviously low self-esteem and when I was talking to the therapist, back in the East coast, I was like 'I might be depressed', and she was like "No, you're definitely depressed, and you are self-mutilating so let's figure out what that is." We never quite figured it out, and I think that that's something that I'm going to figure out at some point.

Paul: You know, the highs and lows that you were describing, of course my first thought was that sounds like people who've described being bi-polar, to me, and I'm so sorry that your first experience with a psychiatrist was so bad. I had to go see a couple of psychiatrists before I found one that's good. But the one that I have is fucking great, and I probably wouldn't be alive if I weren't on meds. Is it something that you could possibly go do, go see a psychiatrist and at least see if there's some help? Is that thought overwhelming?

Alison: The thing is, I don't want to take medication. I don't want to.

Paul: But look at the side-effect of cutting yourself, of not being able to resist buying a purse when you don't have the money. Those are the side-effects of...If you need medication--I don't know whether or not you need medication--but at least going to see a psychiatrist you could determine whether or not...And I didn't know that I needed medication until I was on medication. And then I went 'Oh my God, this is what normal feels like. When people describe...' 'Cause I used to look at people like they were Martians. I'd be like 'How do they laugh so easily? How are they able to get up out of bed and function? How can somebody clean a garage in one afternoon?'

Alison: Well, when I'm having a really shitty day, I will clean. I'll clean until my fingers bleed.

Paul: Well, that doesn't sound good either!

Alison: Sorry! There's something wrong with me, Paul! It's obvious! I'm on the Mental Illness Happy Hour! Get off my back!

Paul: Ali, you are lovable. You are lovable exactly as you are.

Alison: But what if I lose me?

Paul: Meds do not lose you. Our natural selves are lost by mental illness and treating our mental illness allows the true us to come through, to come forward. If I wasn't on meds, if I wasn't going to support groups, Ali, this podcast would have never been possible. I would be drinking, I would be probably dead or certainly suicidal, I would have alienated everybody around me. Is that the natural me? Or is this show the natural me?

Alison: Well I like you as you are.

Paul: It is possible because--

Alison: I don't know past Paul.

Paul: You would not like past Paul, Ali, trust me. And that was not the natural me. But I couldn't judge that until I went to see a psychiatrist in conjunction with a therapist, and work through stuff that has nothing to do with the physical chemistry of my brain. But I would have never discovered that...If I had taken using meds off the table, and said that's a non-starter, my life would have been so sad and small.

Alison: I don't want that.

Paul: And there are aspects to your life that sound sad and small, but that's not the natural you, Ali. Your mental illness is convincing you that it's you, and I'm trying to tell you I've been there. I've seen the world through the eyes that you're describing, and I know what that feels like, to cry because I can't find a pen. To cry because I can't find a parking spot and I feel overwhelmed, to not be able to get out of bed, to not be able to find the words to say something, to not want to meet friends because conversation feels like sandpaper. Is any of this ringing a bell?

Alison: A lot of it. Yep.

Paul: I hope I'm not overstepping my boundaries.

Alison: No, please do!

Paul: I'm not a therapist, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I've talked to a lot of people with mental illness and I have a lot of friends and I know their lives intimately and I know mine. And when I see red flags I have to say it because I see so many lives wasted because people aren't open to certain types of help, because there's a stigma attached to that. And that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast, is to de-stigmatize mental illness and the treatments that are necessary for certain types of it. I'm done. I'm putting my soapbox away.

Alison: Can you make a joke please? It's easier to laugh through the pain. It really is.

Paul: Well I'll tell you a joke I almost said but I kept my mouth shut. When you were describing your mom in the bed after her brain surgery, and she had the staple marks in the shape of a question mark, I was gonna ask if her doctor was The Riddler.

Alison: My mom will even laugh at that. Holy crap. OK.

Paul: Let's go to a fear list. I apologize to Ali, because I left the house and I was like 'I feel like I'm forgetting something' and I couldn't put my finger on what it was, and I forgot to bring a fear list and a love list. So I'm going to Miles Davis them.

Alison: Sweet. Oh my God, you're gonna have to come up with so many, my friend. Yeah. I'm afraid that everyone is a figment of my imagination and I've actually been in a coma since 2010.

Paul: I'm afraid that you will never get the help that you deserve.

Alison: I'm afraid that by not having a therapist I'm sharing too much and scaring people off.

Paul: I'm afraid that even though I'm straightening my garage up, I'm still never gonna get the urge to woodwork back, and all of the money that I've put into the machinery will be a waste, and every time I look at that garage I will feel a certain amount of mockery.

Alison: Your work is so beautiful!

Paul: Oh, you're nice.

Alison: No, I'm honest. It's absolutely gorgeous and I just wished I lived closer so I could transport some of that shit home. I am afraid that I'm too nasal when I speak.

Paul: You don't strike me as that. I'm afraid of that also, I'm afraid that my Chicago accent is hard to listen to.

Alison: Paul.

Paul: Dialect, I guess. Not accent.

Alison: I am afraid that I've tried to learn too many things and as a result am mediocre at everything.

Paul: I'm afraid that when I play hockey and for no reason I feel way more tired than normal, I fear that the reason is because I have cancer and I don't know it.

Alison: I'm afraid that I will only let myself be the one night stand girl.

Paul: I'm afraid that the meds I'm on, which are causing me to gain weight, will continue in that direction and I will have to make the choice between being incredibly fat or miserably depressed.

Alison: I'm afraid that I will shit myself in public.

Paul: I'm afraid that I will be driving past in a car and have to see that.

Alison: It would happen in a car on the LA freeway. Don't follow me home. I'm afraid that I won't ask for help when I desperately need it.

Paul: I'm afraid that my dream of supporting myself doing this show will never come to fruition and I won't have had a second option that I could have been doing all along. I will have put too many of my eggs in one basket.

Alison: I love this show.

Paul: Thanks.

Alison: Oh, sorry, we're still on fears. I'm afraid of puncturing my eardrum with a Q-Tip.

Paul: I'm afraid, speaking of ears, that the excess ear wax that I have is gonna get worse and worse and I'm gonna be fully deaf by the time I'm 60.

Alison: I'm afraid that people judge me more by my scars than by my tattoos.

Paul: I'm afraid that I'm going to die the kind of death that I'm watching a friend of mine die right now.

Alison: I would not wish that on anybody.

Paul: No.

Alison: I'm afraid that I sat next to a 'patient zero' on the flight here and I'm now incubating a deadly virus.

Paul: Well fuck, then I'm afraid too.

Alison: I'm afraid of being late to things.

Paul: I'm afraid that I don't put enough effort into my marriage and my wife is disappointed in her partner but doesn't say anything.

Alison: I'm afraid that my parents' relationship has given me false expectations of what relationships are supposed to be.

Paul: I think I'm out of fears.

Alison: As am I.

Paul: Beautiful, let's go to loves.

Alison: I love looking at window displays during the holidays.

Paul: I love when a guest comes on the show and completely opens their heart up and gets vulnerable and cries.

Alison: I lost my shit, Paul!

Paul: No you didn't, you showed us your shit.

Alison: Sorry I had to throw it all over the room. We are part monkey. I love watching someone's eyes soften when they thank you.

Paul: I love when chicken parmigiana has the cheese perfectly melted on top and it's just a little bit brown.

Alison: I love folding warm laundry.

Paul: I love that Podfest is successful and it shows that podcasts are the wave of the future and that people dig them in a way that makes its medium special.

Alison: I love that I can stand in the garden at Pittock Mansion, stare at Mount Hood, and feel peace when I think 'Yeah, this is my home now.'

Paul: I love that the Beatles considered themselves to be Irish.

Alison: I love the Bettys, Kudlas, and other various internet friends I have made and visited within the last few years.

Paul: I love that my car is seven years old and still running well.

Alison: I love that I don't own a scale.

Paul: I love that I am close to being done cleaning and organizing the garage, and that I was able to do it even though it felt overwhelming and impossible months ago.

Alison: I love Dave Anthony's laugh.

Paul: I love my office, the way it's decorated it looks like an opium den, and when I go in there to record or edit at night and I look around at all the vintage jazz and blues album covers that are on the walls and all the tiny little colorful lights, it feels like a reflection of what I've always wanted my soul to feel like, which is warm and fuzzy and unique.

Alison: That's beautiful.

Paul: Thanks.

Alison: I'll just do one more. I love nights when my brain will shut off and allow me over four hours of sleep.

Paul: I love doing this show.

Alison: I love that you do this show.

Paul: Ali, thank you so much for being a guest and being so open and honest and vulnerable, I really appreciate it.

Alison: Hopefully my struggle is similar to somebody else's and they can hopefully figure something else out to do.

Paul: I can guarantee that there are other people that will be able to relate, so thank you.

Alison: Thank you.

Paul: Many thanks to Alison, and you know what I really liked about her as a guest, is there was nothing really that she could point to, and I think for a lot of us it's so confusing because we don't have some event. I mean, what happened to her mom and stuff like that, and her brother having issues that took her parents' attention, you can certainly point to them and those affected her. But I just thought there were so many issues that she had that are important to talk about and I really, really appreciate her opening up and talking about those.

Before I take it out with a stack o' surveys, I wanted to remind you again to submit, if you want to win that cutting board, submit a guess or guesses, depending on what you qualify for, between one and 500, and whoever guesses closest will win that cutting board. And want to remind you that there's a couple of different ways to support the podcast, you can do it financially by going to the website mentalpod.com and making a one-time donation or my favorite, the recurring monthly donation. You can donate for as little as five bucks a month, and once you set it up you don't have to worry about it unless you choose to cancel or your credit card expires. And that is kind of the financial foundation that allows this podcast to operate; pays for equipment when I need it, new equipment when I need it, etcetera etcetera. The website and all the stuff that goes with it, the surveys, all those pieces of software, the money that I give our web guy when he goes over and beyond. So, yes, if you can, that would be awesome. You can also support it non-financially by going to iTunes and giving us a good rating or spreading the word through social media. So I'd appreciate if you did that and as I mentioned a couple of episodes ago, somebody created a sub-Reddit for the Mental Illness Happy Hour, so go join that and the forum and fuckin' knock yourself out. There's also an Amazon search portal, if you're gonna shop at Amazon do it through our home page, right-hand side about halfway down, make sure your ad blocker isn't engaged because you won't see it.

This is from the Struggle in a Sentence survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Valentine. About her depression she writes "BiPolar, deep depression which sits in the soles of my feet and slowly pulls me down until I can't breathe or see anything but the ground." About her bulimia she says "I exercise until I want to collapse, and even though it keeps me from killing myself it is its own addiction." About her epilepsy she writes "It has caused chronic pain in my shoulders, deep pain, which I try to balance out with self-injury." About her PTSD she writes "When someone knocks on my door at night, I wake up and shiver a silent gasp, unable to know that this is not my father coming to rape me." That is fucking heavy. About being a sex crime victim, she writes "I will never say his name, because calling him anything other than biological father feels intimate and personal." Well my heart goes out to you, Valentine. You've got a lot on your plate, sending you a big hug.

This is from the Struggle in a Sentence survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself FranFran. About her bulimia she writes "Although I've exercised the last three hours, it's never enough. I know I can do more." About her anorexia "Food is my biggest enemy but also what I fantasize about the most." About her self-injury and cutting she writes "The physical pain is so much easier for me to identify and understand than my emotional pain."

This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a guy who calls himself Dumb Jimmy, so you know he's brimming with confidence. He's straight, in his '30s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. Never been sexually abused. Deepest darkest thoughts "Sex, sex, sex. Even ten minutes after getting laid I can see a female on TV or on line at the market and think "Hell yes, I'd like some of that." Deepest darkest secrets "I hired another hooker yesterday. I only let her blow me, but as soon as it was over I began to obsess about what diseases I was just exposed to since she was clearly a 'seasoned working girl'." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you, "Many and varied. Some make me think I'm beyond help, but I behave for the most part. Aside from picking up hookers, I pretty much keep it all legal." Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend? "My days of being with one partner are long behind me." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings toward yourself? "Just the obvious. They generate huge shame and guilt, yet I can't seem to stop." I really encourage you to get into a support group or go see a therapist, because we can't defeat addiction on our own, we can't manage it on our own, and it's no fun trying to manage it on our own. It's really kind of sad and lonely. So sending a lot of love to you, it really sounds like objectifying women is like a safe, exciting place for you to go to, and I get it, man. I get it. I can go to that place sometimes when I'm feeling really threatened and hating myself. But it's a dead end. It's a dead end, and you're not beyond help. You're not beyond help.

This is from Shame and Secrets, filled out by a guy who calls himself Sullen Boy. He's bi-sexual, in his '40s, was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse?: "Some stuff happened but I don't know if it counts. I went out with older men when I was 18-20, I was drugged and fucked repeatedly but I kept going back, so not sure." Well, you know, a lot of people who are violated will go back into situations that are similar to try to convince themselves that they had control and that it was something that they wanted, so that might be what's happening with you. But, again, my broken record, please go talk to somebody. Deepest, darkest secrets: "My worst secret is that I'm pretty sure that despite all of these pills, hospitalizations, and doctors I don't really want to get better. If I do, even a little, I think the world will crush me with expectations. It's terribly unfair to those who support me, I feel pretty shitty about it." And sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I have repeating dreams that I can auto-fellate." I have repeating dreams that I pay somebody to auto-fellate me. Wait, that would be blowing me. Aw, there goes my fantasy. Sending you a big hug, jokes aside.

This is Shame and Secrets filled out by a transgendered person who calls him/herself Panda. Transgendered female to male, and by the way, I don't think I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I got an email from a trans person who said it's okay to ask a trans person what pronoun they prefer, before calling them a he or a she. Some people get very uptight about it and they would rather, this person said, you just come out and ask, than maybe address them as what they don't want to be addressed. Deepest, darkest thoughts, and Panda is 16: "I sometimes want to die, and at times the only reason I don't jump in front of oncoming trains I'm about to board is knowing that I don't want to make the driver feel like the murderer." I've thought that before, too. "I wish my ex- would take me back so I wouldn't feel this way, but I know I'm not good enough for her. I worry that I've made up my mental illnesses but I'm unable to differentiate truth from lies. On the flip side, I also worry that I'm much crazier than I even know." Boy, I relate to that so much. And I know it sounds like I'm always saying I relate to things, but I really do. I do not make it up when I don't relate. Deepest, darkest secrets: "I've made sexual advances that I am still not sure the other person (my ex-) consented to. I have a bit of a grey-out period where everything's really fuzzy. It's a rather dark grey, bordering on a blackout period. I'm also a bit of a compulsive thief from my mom, I meant to steal only $20 from her wallet, but due to it being really dark and me not wanting to wake her up, I stole $50 instead. And instead of returning it in a subtle way, I just spent a great portion of it in one day. I think I was in a bit of a hypo-manic episode but this doesn't excuse my actions. I'm pretty sure all the things I've done in my life make me a terrible person. Don't give me that 'Oh everyone makes mistakes' BS, because I don't deserve it." Fuck you. You do deserve it. How's that? How's that for an ironic hug? Panda, I had stolen $50 from my parents by the time I was eight years old, so forgive yourself. Please forgive yourself. Oh my God, the list of things that you are beating yourself up about is on the curve of humanity, you are so--I don't know what would be the word--ahead of the curve? Please. People have done way more scandalous things than that.

This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a male who calls himself Me and the Boys. He's gay, he's in his '40s, was raised in a totally chaotic environment, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. By the way, when I see that on a survey the most chaotic things and some of the most painful coping mechanisms that people have are the people that have checked off that box, that they were the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "Sometimes I think about self-immolation, not because I want to die a horrible, painful death, but to be heard. To have someone listen to what I need to say. Sounds strange, I know, there are times when I get so angry and frustrated by the insanity of the world I live in, I imagine taking a tire, a couple of gallons of gasoline, going to the town square of my city and just stand there on the stage, fill the tire with gas, and light it. I'd leave behind a letter telling people to stop. Stop hating, stop killing, stop abusing. I imagine my father seeing it on the news and realizing that he's the one who destroyed so much of my life that it led to such a drastic moment. Deepest, darkest secrets: "After many years of therapy and recovery, 12-step, I don't know if I have any left, any secrets. But the things I don't usually share are the sexual abuse my father did to me between the ages of five and eleven. Those flashbacks are still there, albeit less in the face than they used to be. I still don't talk about what he actually did with anyone but my therapist." That's awesome that you're talking to your therapist, though. "The other big secret is that as a result of this sexual, physical, and emotional abuse is that I developed DID--Dissociative Identity Disorder. There are eight of us--me, the host, and 'the boys', as we refer to them. It's difficult to live with DID at times. We've all worked really hard to develop a communication and trust pattern that makes it fairly easy when things are stable. Otherwise, let's just say it's weird on the inside. I can only imagine what it's like for those around me. Oh, and then there's this weird sexual attraction to my little brother. I don't know where it comes from, but it's been there a long time. He's tall, handsome, 'normal', and has the body I wish I had. I'm more of the all body no limbs round Scottish type. I've never had any sexual anything with my brother, never would, but sometimes I look at him and either wish I could be him or that I could have sex with him." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "The damage from the sexual abuse has this really messed up. My main fantasy, you know, the one that keeps you in the bathroom longer than normal, is about giving men oral gratification. It's been my primary goal for as long as I can remember. I imagine myself meeting a hot guy andgoing to his place where I get down on my knees. He teases me, making me beg for it. When we're done, his roommate comes home and wants the same from me. This can go on with more men depending how long I stay in the bathroom (wink). This all goes back to being forced to do this to my father." Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend?: "I've talked to my therapist about this, I have not discussed it with my husband, although we've been in situations where he's seen/watched me do this to other men." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings toward yourself?: "There are lots of feelings about it. It used to be that it felt really good, fun, exciting. If I couldn't find a man who wanted an oral expert, I would feel useless, fat, ugly, rejected It was really pathetic feeling. Today I can't quite separate the knowledge that this obsession is linked to the father and the abuse, now I feel confused and frustrated because I don't know how to act or feel. I still really enjoy oral sex even casually, but there's always that lurking feeling that the compulsion/obsession comes from and is polluted by the abuse. It makes me feel sad, angry, and frustrated." I feel for you, and it's so good that you're in recovery and therapy and you know, my therapist said a similar thing to me, that I objectify myself because I was objectified as a child. And what was done to me was so minor compared to what was done to you. Moving on.

This is also from Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Dogs Saved Me. She's straight, in her '40s, was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. She writes "I only realized via your podcasts that a lack of love is dysfunctional." Was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "I've never had sober sex. I don't like myself physically even though outwardly I'm pretty attractive. My ex-fiancé from years ago was the first person that told me that I was attractive but then he was a total mind-fuck as he used to beat me up and was a grade A psycho, we're talking he killed people through his terrorist organization. I stayed with him through fear but finally left after a really bad beating but only because I could leave the country I was living in. He followed me and I was so scared and went into hiding. I tried to talk to my family about it but they didn't want to talk about something this unpleasant. My sister's husband was killed soon after, so they didn't need to deal with me as this new thing was much more desirable and taking care of her was easier, a widow. Holy crap, seeing this written down makes me know I need to see a therapist. This is from two decades ago." Deepest, darkest secrets: "That I am a loser and can never be good enough. I have no friends as I don't think anyone would want me as a friend." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "None. I have zero desire." I hope you go talk to somebody about that. That is...A lot of really heavy surveys this show.

Let's lighten it up with a Happy Moment. This is from Anna May's Sister. She writes "I was babysitting my little sister, who was four. I decided that going on a picnic would be a fun outing and would tire her out enough to get her to go down for a nap nicely. After a long walk we got to the park. It was a beautiful sunny day and we found a shady place in the lush, green grass. I laid out our picnic towel, we hadn't been able to find a quilt, and smiled because my little sister was jumping up and down with excitement for a picnic. Her pure joy at such a simple thing filled my heart. Almost as soon as we sat down, however, the bees descended on us, and we walked home laughing that we had walked so far just to come right back. I made her laugh over and over by pretending that I had forgotten how to get home, even though our house was in sight. When we got home we laid the towel on the table and pretended we were back in the park, without the bees. We didn't care a bit that we were eating lunch inside, it was the thought that counted. It was the best picnic that I had ever had." That's beautiful.

This is from Struggle in a Sentence, filled out by Sarah. About her alcoholism and drug addiction, she writes "Running really fast just to stand still." I really drelated to that one. Same survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Sea. About her depression she writes "Like there's silt in my veins instead of blood." About her anxiety "Constant agitation, even when doing things that are fun and safe, I can never fully decompress." About her alcoholism and drug addiction "Don't have it yet, but terrified of developing it because it runs in my family." Well, you might not. You might not. OCD "I've become a checker this past year--bank account, doors, stove, windows, anything fire-related. It's exhausting." Sexual bias: "I'm an educated person working in the restaurant industry and sometimes I hate that I have to put up with so much sexual harassment as a part of my job. I know if I were really a professional in an industry I took seriously I wouldn't play along with it and laugh it off when people comment on my ass and what they want to do to me--'Hey, beautiful', etcetera--but it feels intrinsic to the industry and they're just being playful/friendly." You know, I think a lot of guys don't understand, because guys say "I'd be flattered if somebody complimented my ass", but I think what they forget is there's a different vibe when there's somebody physically imposing saying it to you, and I don't think they can picture that so men maybe just pause for a second and picture a big guy or a woman who's physically towering over you, and right now there's a little guy going "Yeah, that's my fantasy. Fuck you!" I don't know. I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Although I get the feeling those kind of guys aren't the kind that listen to this podcast, maybe they are. Maybe I'm just preaching to the choir. About living with an abuser she writes "Living with my mother was like living in a house full of land mines." About being an abuser she writes "When I was younger and would act out in abusive ways towards family and friends, it felt like I temporarily lost all control and a supercharged, energetic force raged out of me, overtaking my free will and wreaking havoc without my consent. At the same time I felt a cathartic release until I saw my sister's crying face if I yelled at her or hit her." I'm sending a big hug to you, it sounds like you've got a lot on your plat too, and about the stuff happening at your workplace, I wonder if there's a way you can stick up for yourself without it becoming a big ugly scene. I've seen women before that have a way of stopping people in their tracks without exploding.

This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by--I love this guy's name--Chocolate Hobo. He's straight, in his '20s, was raised in a totally chaotic environment. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "I'm not sure if I have feelings anymore, I feel like I must have drank them away. I pretend to have feelings and love, but on some level I would not care if even those closest to me died." Deepest, darkest secrets: "I have done some monstrous things while drunk. Once on a vacation I met a 14-year-old runaway. I told him he could sleep on the floor of my motel room. He left his stuff in there and we left together to get booze. I got separated at some point and I went back to the room and passed out drunk. I woke up to him pounding on the door, asking to get his stuff. He said he at least wanted his sweater because it was cold. I ignored him in my stupor and in the morning I went through his stuff, which was a Game Boy, a few coloring books, and an alarm clock. I pawned the Game Boy and bought booze." You know, that's what we do as alcoholics and addicts. When we're in our disease, nobody matters to us. It doesn't say if you're still drinking, but if you are I think that would be the first thing to look at, and if you can't stop I would go get help. I like how I'm giving him advice and he didn't even ask for it. I hope I don't give advice too much on this show.

This is from the Shame and Secrets, filled out by John. He is straight, in his '20s, was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional, never been sexually abused. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "Having a sexual relationship with students I teach at elementary school, particularly with two fourth-grade students, one fifth-grade student, and two sixth-grade students." Deepest, darkest secrets: "Taking pictures of middle-school girls with my phone as I go to work or leave work and following a few girls to their schools on a few occasions." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Having sex with the students that I teach, having them come to my apartment and engage in sexual acts. Nothing kinky, just typical sexual acts that I would have with an older woman; the only difference is these girls are between 10 and 14." Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend?: "Never. I would be automatically cut off from them. The friendship or relationship would end right there as social stigma would be put on me as well." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?: "A feeling of disgust because I have these feelings, however, I don't act upon them. I will never act upon them." And the reason I wanted to read your survey, John, is because it sounds like you're really playing with fire by taking these pictures and following these students. And you may not have any intention of acting upon it now, but it sounds like you're feeding that part of you and people that engage in addictive behaviors and don't keep it in check and don't go to any kind of support groups or things like that, the line keeps getting pushed back as to what they find acceptable and my fear is that's what's going to happen with you if you don't talk to somebody, get some help, or curb these areas. Because taking pictures of those girls or following them, if they see that happening, that's traumatic. That's traumatic to them. That's gonna affect their world-view and how they view men. And that affects other men, that doesn't just affect them. The ripples are far-reaching, so sending you a big hug and asking you to get help.

This is from the Shame and Secrets survey filled out by a woman who calls herself JP. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "A few weeks ago I began feeling weird about the large butcher knife in the kitchen, and scissors laying on the counter. After some days, a week, had passed, I was home alone when a voice or thought in my head said 'Kill your husband.' It scared the hell out of me. On multiple nights there were thoughts of stabbing him, and I have been afraid of letting myself fall asleep at times for fear of sleepwalking. I love my husband very much, there's absolutely no violence in our relationship, and I have never acted violent towards another person in my life. I don't know why these thoughts come into my head. They cause me profound guilt, shame, and sadness. It also completely shakes the tenuous trust I have in myself." Deepest, darkest secrets: "I think about doing a lot of things that I haven't through so I'm not sure if it counts as secrets, like finding and doing hard drugs, having an affair, running away, killing myself, etcetera. I suppose the secret might be the extent to which I think about these things." It strikes me as an unwanted thoughts syndrome, and I would imagine a therapist would help you kind of sift what might be an issue from what's just unwanted thoughts, but it really strikes me as you're putting too much importance on those thoughts that pop into our head that we have no control over. And I've shared them before, the things that I think about, I think of horrible things sometimes that just pop into my head and they're gone in a flash. I think the ones that we need to be concerned about are the ones that excite us, you know what I mean? Like when I'm playing hockey and I want to punch somebody in the face. Last night I was playing, and it was the playoffs so of course we're all taking it very seriously, and there's this guy that I play against who's--we're friends outside the rink--but he's a real hot-head, way worse than I am. He gets suspended like every four games for getting in a fight. And his team was beating ours, there was ten seconds left, they were up by two goals, and for no reason he just bowls me over. Just both forearms right to my head, knocks me off my feet, and I get up and I'm like "What the fuck?! Why did you--" And he gets a penalty and goes to the box and I'm like "Sean, why did you do that? That was really bullshit." And he goes 'Fuck you!' And I'm like "Fuck me? Fuck YOU!" And then I started screaming at him "Go get therapy! Go see a therapist! You need fucking therapy!" And I apologized to him like 15 seconds later and we were both laughing about it. But you know, that's a part of myself that I need to look at, when I get into that rage, and I hurt people's feelings.

This is from Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Crab Face. I love the names you guys give yourself. She's bi-sexual, in her '30s, was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. Was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "I have dreams and thoughts about my father raping me. I don't want it, but aspects of our relationship are a bit too close and he is also very aggressive. I have also been raped in the past. My brain seems to put the two together to create my worst nightmare." Deepest, darkest secrets: "I have spoken to my therapist about my abusive experiences and my rape, but I am terrified to share with him that I touched myself during the rape to make it feel okay. Needless to say, it didn't change anything. I'm afraid my therapist will tell me that that makes it not rape. I'm afraid if he says that that I will feel even deeper shame about my experience and PTSD, because I will no longer have a legitimate reason for feeling as chaotic as I do." You should feel no shame about what happened to you. You should feel no shame about touching yourself. Who isn't going to try to lessen the situation? That would be like blaming yourself for looking away, for not looking at the person in the face when it's happening. You're in an overwhelming environment, and overwhelming situation that's terrifying. Who isn't going to reach for some semblance of control? That's what our fantasies are, after stuff happens to us that's traumatic, 'cause we want to go back and have that control. And if your therapist says that that makes it not rape, first of all, punch him or her in the face, try to get all your money back, and tell him to fuck off and go find another therapist. But I can't imagine any decent therapist is going to shame you for that. So please, please forgive yourself. And of course sexual fantasies are totally related to that. Her fantasy is being raped, "I cannot have sex without a few pints of hard liquor in me and a man on top, smothering me while I lay there motionless." That is all about trying to go back and take control, it's not about that's what you want intrinsically, so please, please be gentle with yourself and show some compassion for yourself, and please share that with your therapist. And she says, any comments to make the podcast better, "Nope, it's helped me a great deal, and I would like to give YOU a big hug." Well, if we ever meet in person, I will take that hug. It's one of the things when I do go out on the road, I love meeting you guys and getting hugs and giving hugs. And now I'm judging myself, saying that sounds cheesy.

This is last thing I want to read before a Happy Moment. This is a nice e-mail, this is from Jenny. That's actually her name. And she writes "Hi Paul, I actually e-mailed a while back around December 2011. I doubt you'll remember mine, but I wrote about my struggle with trichotillomania--that's where you pull hairs out--and you mentioned it on the show. I just wanted to let you know that a month ago I finally broke free from it. I had one 30-minute session of hypnotherapy and the urge to pull out my hair completely dissolved. It's only been a month but I know that it's gone because the tingling I've felt for the last 12 years under my scalp and in my eyelashes has vanished. I feel so happy and free. I started pulling when I was nine, and I'm almost 22 now. I'm so excited to grow out the pixie cut I have that hides my bald spots and to have long hair again. My confidence has increased immensely, and for the first time in my life I feel like a woman. I want to encourage any of your listeners that are struggling with this condition to go online and look for a hypnotherapy mp3. A quick Google will turn up a bunch of great, inexpensive options." And then I emailed her back and said 'Congrats! And to clarify, was the session done with you just listening once to an mp3 by yourself?' And she wrote "It was done by myself. It can be described as a binaural beat/white noise"--and binaural is b-i-n-a-u-r-a-l, I believe that means two noises in different ears--"it's a binaural beat/white noise combination mixed with the therapist's voice. The voice alternated between the left and right ear, and it definitely puts you in a trance-like state. I listened to it as I fell asleep. You can definitely post this or read it on-air. Just call me Jenny." Well thank you for that. I love hearing solutions, especailly new ones we haven't heard before.

This is a Happy Moment from Kira. She writes "Fishing with my dad on an early Saturday morning. It was almost sacred in my younger years, it became one of the few instances where, for the first time, I saw my father completely relaxed, happy even. He would wake me up at 5:00 am, and I would fill up our water bottles while he hitched the boat onto the truck. We would go through our checklists--hats, water, sunscreen, life jackets--then we were off to the gas station next. But just like every car ride there was never an engaging conversation or even friendly chatter, just complete silence the whole 28 miles to the next town over with the cheap donuts and gas. Once we were out on the water he became a completely different man. He made jokes, smiled a carefree kind of boyish smile that I can only just remember. We caught fish, ate cheap donuts, and I could feel a heaviness just lifted from him when we were fishing." That was beautiful, thank you for that.

And I just wanted to read a quote from Victor Frankel, the Holocaust survivor who wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning, and he writes that "The one thing you can't take away from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do to me. The last of one's freedoms is to choose one's attitude in any given circumstance." That's such a great quote, such a profound book.

Well, thank you guys for listening, and thanks to my guests and to all you guys who've bared your souls on the surveys and thanks for your feedback. And I hope if you've listened you have a little bit more hope than you did, or you were entertained or compelled or, whatever. Got some cleaning done. Got through your job that you hate. And I hope you know that you are most definitely not alone. Thanks for listening.