Symphony and PromoWest battle over The Banks. Here are three reasons why each should build the riverfront concert venue

Who's hipper: the local orchestra or the Columbus-based music promoter that owns Bunbury Music Festival?

It's a heated debate that goes far beyond music and taste and could play a major role in the fate of the Cincinnati's underperforming Banks development on the riverfront.

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, Live Nation and PromoWest each want to develop a concert venue at The Banks, each arguing they'll bring the acts young people want to see.

Most of the decision makers have dismissed Live Nation's bid since the proposal would require $36 million in public money. So that pits the CSO and PromoWest against each other.

Business owners at The Banks, elected leaders and music fans are divided. Let's look at the arguments:

Three reasons the CSO should build the venue

What the CSO is proposing: The CSO wants to build a $19 million concert hall on 0.75-acres that would seat 4,000 indoors and would allow for a temporary outdoor stage. The stage would overlook a lawn that would go on top of the 710-space parking garage being built on "Lot 24" alongside Smale Park and the southeast corner of Paul Brown Stadium.

Reason 1: The CSO's design takes up less real estate.

Bigger isn't always better. County leaders have valued property at The Banks at $4 million an acre. So the more compact the design, the more land remains available for future developers.

At under an acre, the CSO's design takes up one-third of the land of the proposed venues from Live Nation and PromoWest.

That means millions of dollars, said Thomas Gabelman, Hamilton County's attorney for The Banks project and a member of the Joint Banks Steering Committee.

PromoWest's and Live Nation's concert venues would have taken up $9 million to $10 million worth of real estate. Whereas the CSO's concert venue would take up $3 million worth of land.

Reason 2: CSO helped jumpstart a struggling rock scene 30 years ago

Symphony supporters argue it was the symphony that helped save rock 'n roll in the Queen City 34 years ago.

In 1984, when the CSO opened Riverbend, major music acts largely avoided the area, said Mike Smith, the head of the symphony's concert management agency, Music and Event Management, Inc (MEMI). The Who tragedy five years earlier - at which 11 people were crushed to death - lingered in the minds of many bands and concert promoters who avoided the region.

Large acts weren't coming here. At least not until Riverbend, Smith said.

He credits the symphony's management of Riverbend and subsequent acquisition and management of the Taft Theater downtown for boosting Cincinnati's profile as a music destination. Smith said the CSO has tripled the number of shows at the Taft in the eight years since the orchestra took over the management of the theater. Pop acts like Janelle Monae and Fleet Foxes have played there in recent years.

"We have a track record of growing the business and investing in the facilities here," Smith said. "We have a commitment and investment in the community."

Reason 3: CSO's design what "The Banks environment calls for"

Local leaders have praised the design of the CSO's proposed concert venue, tentatively called Riverview.

“Live Nation and PromoWest had more sheet metal, something that looked more industrial than what The Banks environment calls for, but that’s something that could be worked on,” said Hamilton County Commissioner Chris Monzel.

The CSO offered the only one of the three proposals that included an acoustical engineer to help design the building.

Three reasons PromoWest should build the music venue

What PromoWest is proposing: Columbus-based PromoWest has proposed a $15 million venue on 2.2 acres with 2,500 indoor seats and 5,000 outdoor seats. The venue would have an oversized airport hangar door to divide the indoor and outdoor seating.

Reason 1: PromoWest can bring in young, hip acts.

For venues, it's more about who's doing the booking, not about the venue itself, local music industry experts said.

PromoWest has venues in Pittsburgh and Columbus.

"I've seen what they're capable of doing, " Kick Lee, a local music producer and composer, said of PromoWest. "They're the new player on the scene. They'll bring to the table what folks are looking for – they want more youths. They have that following."

Among the chief complaints against CSO is that their acts skew older. Most of the acts booked through October at Riverbend, 40 of the 57 shows, are 40 or older or have members mostly 40 or older.

The remnants of the Grateful Dead, Jackson Browne, Slayer, Dave Matthews Band, Barenaked Ladies and Poison will grace the Riverbend stage in the next month.

To be fair, there are some 20 and 30-somethings mingled in with the aging rockers. Kesha, Wiz Khalifa and Chris Brown perform there in July. And the CSO will also bring in to the Taft on July 10 singer Janelle Monae, whose popularity has risen in the past month with the critical and commercial success of her new album Dirty Computer.

More: The Banks: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra picked as developer for new concert venue at The Banks

More: The Banks: Three promoters step forward to develop riverfront concert venue

But that doesn't shake the fear some have that the CSO lacks what it takes in today's market.

"Just look at the same, tired programming that happens every summer at Riverbend," said Bunbury music festival founder Bill Donabedian. "I know for a fact there are artists who will not play the venue."

He didn't name the artists who wouldn't play there. Donabedian does have a business connection with PromoWest. He sold a majority interest in Bunbury to PromoWest.

Reason 2: PromoWest would give the CSO competition:

PromoWest supporters would like to see competition for CSO-owned properties of Riverbend, PNC Pavilion and the Taft Theater.

Other than U.S. Bank Arena, the CSO's concert venues are pretty much the only game in town for concerts that draw thousands of people.

And they've fought to keep it that way, symphony critics have said.

PromoWest wanted to build a music venue at The Banks in 2016. The CSO and prominent art supporters stopped it from happening, Mayor John Cranley told The Enquirer in 2016.

"The leadership at CSO came to see me and asked to stop it," Cranley said. "They are actively trying to stop it."

Donabedian said he set up a meeting March 19, 2015 with PromoWest's president Scott Stienecker, Cranley and then-Park Board president Willie Carden. If not for the CSO, a music venue would be up and running by now, according to Donabedian. PromoWest had the money ready to go three years ago, he said.

"The CSO found out about the project and suddenly had an interest in developing their own venue," Donabedian said. "Now PromoWest can't make any headway on the project."

The symphony leadership has a different version. Smith said the symphony didn't ask the mayor to stop it. The CSO didn't meet with the mayor. They just asked the Joint Banks Steering Committee for a chance to submit a proposal. It's true they didn't want something that would "conflict" with Riverbend or the Taft, he said.

"It is not an accurate statement to say we tried to stop anything," Smith said. "We just said, "Hey we're here in town, we'd like a seat at the table."

Reason 3: PromoWest will pay property taxes

PromoWest is a for-profit company subject to property tax. The symphony is a non-profit exempt from property taxes.

County estimates show PromoWest would pay $2.8 million in property taxes to the city and county over a 20-year period if the company's proposed venue became reality.

County officials argue the additional land taken up by the PromoWest venue outweighs what is lost in property taxes from the CSO by a value of $5.8 million.

What do people at The Banks want?

Jean-Francois Flechet, owner of Taste of Belgium, prefers PromoWest over the CSO. He also doesn't think Live Nation should be dismissed. He wants a music promoter that will bring in a young audience to his restaurant, something he's not confident the CSO will do.

Foot traffic hasn't met expectations at the Banks since Taste of Belgium opened there in spring 2016, Flechet said. But music brings hope.

Taste of Belgium's Banks location recorded the franchise's record number of sales for a weekend on April 28-29 - thanks to the thousands who attended the riverfront concert at Smale Park organized by The National, Flechet said.

"If you look at an outdoor venue, something that's really unique and will attract people, that is what we need," Flechet said. "The economic impact is gigantic."

But it's the larger indoor facility proposed by the CSO that Jim Moehring likes better. He owns the Holy Grail bar and restaurant at The Banks across from Great American Ball Park. The winter months are tough for businesses there, he said.

"We didn't care who ran (the concert venue), as long as there is a big indoor component for the times that we need it at The Banks. And that's the winter time," Moehring said.

Who will decide?

The debate will be answered by the mostly older politicians on the Hamilton County Board of Commissioners and Cincinnati City Council, likely this summer.

"I don't recognize any of these names," said Commissioner Denise Driehaus, as she was staring at a list of current music acts during a recent meeting where the venue proposals were detailed. "I can't pronounce some of them."

The older elected officials and leaders in the business community seem to favor the symphony. The symphony received an early edge in April with the recommendation of the Joint Banks Steering Committee.

Cincinnati Mayor John Cranley and many local music promoters have urged leaders to choose PromoWest. City councilmembers who responded to The Enquirer's inquiries said they're undecided. Councilmember Greg Landsman did seem impressed by the CSO.

"I have read the proposals, of course, and I was very impressed with the CSO, which also has an incredibly strong reputation," Landsman said in a statement.

Many of the online comments from music fans seem to favor PromoWest.

"As a concertgoer (>40 per year), I hope PromoWest gets it," wrote Peter Shadix in a Facebook post in March. "It was their idea in the first place, and they routinely book bands in Pittsburgh one night, Columbus the next. They could easily then add Cincinnati as the third night."

What's next?

There's no deadline. Officials have said they hope to have the venue opened by the end of 2019.

Cincinnati City Council and the Hamilton County Board of Commissioners both have to approve the developer. That means they'll have to come to an agreement, possibly through joint meetings.

Cincinnati City Council members said they haven't heard when it will come before them. County commissioners are still deliberating, said County Administrator Jeff Aluotto. Aluotto didn't know when it would move forward and didn't elaborate on what questions still need to be answered.

"Once we feel we answered all their questions, then we'll be prepared to act," Aluotto said.

Reporters Randy Tucker and Carrie Blackmore Smith contributed to this report