rageoverrun Profile Joined April 2015 2 Posts #61 On April 30 2015 03:28 Procake wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote:

This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.



The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line. The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.



He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid! He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid!

OrionTEK Profile Joined April 2015 United States 11 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-29 19:36:50 #62 On April 30 2015 03:56 rageoverrun wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 30 2015 03:28 Procake wrote:

On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote:

This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.



The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line. The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.



He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid! He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid!



Why? That doesn't make any sense. Sure he gets to play a video game, but how is that any different from someone who loves to fish getting a job as a fisherman? Does that mean simply because the fisherman enjoys what he does he is not allowed to complain about excess regulations and being treated poorly by unions? At this point playing video games is his job and the way he earns a living, he has every right to complain about unjust treatment.



Also I'm sure you've never been in that sort of situation so how do you know how you would react? It's easy to take the high ground and look down on people without ever having been in their shoes before. Why? That doesn't make any sense. Sure he gets to play a video game, but how is that any different from someone who loves to fish getting a job as a fisherman? Does that mean simply because the fisherman enjoys what he does he is not allowed to complain about excess regulations and being treated poorly by unions? At this point playing video games is his job and the way he earns a living, he has every right to complain about unjust treatment.Also I'm sure you've never been in that sort of situation so how do you know how you would react? It's easy to take the high ground and look down on people without ever having been in their shoes before.

Sa6peto Profile Joined December 2012 Bulgaria 158 Posts #63 TLDR



User was warned for this post

fire_brand Profile Joined October 2009 Canada 111 Posts #64 Thank you EE for writing this.



Many people may just see this as complaining or venting, but this is actually really important. Despite your feelings about EE, he is an important community member and has been for some time. He has been around from pretty much the beginning of Dota2 and has been on successful teams almost the entire time. When he speaks, although it may be borderline gibberish at times, people will listen.



These are issues that need to be brought to the light. Right now the scene is riding a wave of excitement and money that comes with being a fairly new and shiny thing. Big tournaments have giant prizepools and big dollars always bring in more viewers. The problem with this approach is that while we have all these tournaments and everyone wants to be part of the scene there is a very large lack of investment in infrastructure.



The kind of echos what people have been saying, or were saying a few months ago, about a players union. It's the same kind of idea. To have a successful scene there was to be some sort of stability, and tournaments blowing their loads on big prizepools is not sustainable. I think if we saw a reduction in prizepools organizers could put more effort into things that will keep the scene alive. This being well run tournaments, well paid and dedicated employees, and faster payouts.



The scene is still seen as a little shady. If we want to make it less so we need to build a reputation and environment that can encourage security and reliability. The issues that EE has highlighted in his blog are the exact things that organizers, or Valve should be targetting, instead of just inflating our prizepools so we can see more zeros. All this encourages is people to play for that big payout and get out.





Anyways TLDR I support this blog and people need to find solutions to take care of these issues, and the money that funds that probably comes out of prizepools. Random player, pixel enthusiast, crappy illustrator, offlane/support

bagels21 Profile Joined August 2012 United States 3802 Posts #65 On April 30 2015 03:56 rageoverrun wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 30 2015 03:28 Procake wrote:

On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote:

This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.



The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line. The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.



He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid! He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid!



Lol then get good enough to get paid to play. It's entirely different say you want to do something vs. actually putting in the work and effort to do so Lol then get good enough to get paid to play. It's entirely different say you want to do something vs. actually putting in the work and effort to do so

nucLeaRTV Profile Joined May 2011 Romania 41 Posts #66 Nice write-up EE. "Having your own haters means you are famous"

titansfan Profile Joined April 2015 United States 2 Posts #67



I'm bored, so let's break down this post: On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...



In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.



In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film. ...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...



I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.



I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak. Summit 2 had extremely faulty computers (etc)



Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.



Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon. DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.



I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.



I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events. During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;



I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.



I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much. Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.



That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.



That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience. For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.



Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.



Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point. In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.





TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.



TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.

Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.



It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.



It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament. During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.



Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.



Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem. . ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.



Player's have asked many times for private washrooms but it doesn't seem like anything can be done about it.



"Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50?



"Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50? At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.



Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.



Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.

Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.



Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.



Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate. For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.



A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.



TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.



A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.

SwallowTheSun Profile Joined March 2011 Canada 35 Posts #68 Insightful as always.

People are dumb and think sports stars and their ilk have it so easy, they don't see the pressure and stress that comes with it. The pressure to perform is enormous, to play at your peak you want to optomize every detail to be as comfortable as possible so there are less distractions.

Easy for people to give their opinion on pros from their moms basement but in the limelight you're carrying the weight of the worlds expectations on your shoulders, as well as your teammates and your own. If you fail it could be your career on the line, especially for those below tier 1.

Money doesn't fall from trees just cuz you're pro, especially as EE points out how delayed if at all the pay comes.

EE brings to light the current conditions in the world of pro, not just for himself but for all.

Reason for pause, good thoughts EE.

utcraigo14 Profile Joined August 2014 United States 22 Posts #69 I take each of these posts less seriously than the last. And it's not the poor English. Unless EE figures out how to distinguish between legitimate problems that need to be addressed and little bitchy complaints that are his own problem, (i.e. complaining about casters doing their jobs) people will give less and less credence to his thoughts. This would be a shame because every terrible, rambling, unprofessional post he writes contain gems of truth that are alarming to learn about the pro dota 2 scene and need to be addressed. I think some of his blogs actually help determine the decisions Valve makes, and for the better. It will be a shame when his posts begin to fall on deaf ears (even more than they already do). stress free dota

Birdie Profile Joined August 2007 New Zealand 1895 Posts #70 If you host your own local teamspeak server on the LAN then surely there will be <5ms delay, just set up a password and have it running on one of your PCs. Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!

Atoissen Profile Joined July 2011 Norway 840 Posts #71 Amen!



Thanks for the blog EE. I love your honesty, and its nice to hear about the things happening behind the scenes.

You, the players have most of the power tho. Start boycotting shitty run tournaments, theier viewer count will drop without big named teams like c9 and EG. Force them to up theier standards,

Or get that player union going, make tournaments that want certain teams play in theier league to sign up for some basic rules or something. “Strength lies not in defense but in attack.”

lolnoty Profile Joined December 2005 United States 6374 Posts #72 I'm basing this reply off of both reading this and watching your video - The DDoS situation is shitty and feeling like a lack of respect is shitty, and it's right that you complain about it. However, it's also about a respect thing for the fans and sponsors to both not let it drag on and to very harshly force a solution. (not to the match, but to DDoS.) I'm not an insider at all, but it looked like a lot more teams wisened up a lot faster once they were literally losing their livelyhood by not trying to protect themselves better. It's a shitty solution where there's no good solutions and it was shitty it hurt players both now and probably into the future, but I think it's warranted when you take the experience of everyone into account including viewers.



The LAN conditions situation is also crappy, and I'm glad you take the time to write about it. For as much as people hate on you and PPD for complaining or "salt" (mememememe lololol) regarding the situation of things, they always generate discussion between people that can change things, so I hope you keep writing how you feel after tournaments. Between complaints and the increased competition from 4 Majors, you might want to wait and see rather than just blanket saying that you don't want to attend a bunch of minors again like in the Vlog. There's ways to improve on what your complaints are about that aren't money involved, and I think we'll see them. "PPD is a very angry guy. He controls us." - Arteezy

lolnoty Profile Joined December 2005 United States 6374 Posts #73 On April 30 2015 01:23 Procake wrote:

It's annoying when Thorin talks about the Dota scene and stuff he doesn't know about, like this EE thing, because I've seen him then bitch about the Dota community after they say what he said was wrong. It's annoying as hell.



thorin is a gaping asshole to be honest. he just records his gaping asshole for attention on the internet and people keep giving him attention for it. thorin is a gaping asshole to be honest. he just records his gaping asshole for attention on the internet and people keep giving him attention for it. "PPD is a very angry guy. He controls us." - Arteezy

spudde123 Profile Joined February 2012 4661 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-29 22:47:55 #74 The funny thing is that Thorin just made a long video a week ago or so about "Yes men" in esports, essentially talking down on people who just live with the problems or bad behavior they see and never do or say anything about it. But now a player voicing concerns about tournament conditions, tournament integrity and stuff is "entitled". Of course it's another thing whether a blog is a good way to go about it or if every concern is valid, but as a whole taking whatever concerns you have to the organizers is definitely a good thing. Also it's important to keep in mind that it would be in the best interest of everyone that instead of players and organizers getting angry at each other, they could just say whatever they have to say and improve. For a vibrant scene it's also a slippery slope if top teams start boycotting tournaments a lot, as people probably want to see them in more than 4 LANs each year.

mutantmagnet Profile Joined June 2009 United States 2990 Posts #75 On April 29 2015 22:53 Leyra wrote:

These blogs get old, cause every time it's just EE complaining about every little thing. The tone at this point sounds like a kid complaining about all the little stuff that anyone has to deal with in their every day jobs. Someone who focuses only on the negative aspects of their job, etc.



Not saying there isn't validity to the complaints, but for me, it gets old, that's all.





He's the player. He isn't in charge of how these tournaments are ran. I'm going to assume he has talked to the TO's directly about his issues before making this post. He's the player. He isn't in charge of how these tournaments are ran. I'm going to assume he has talked to the TO's directly about his issues before making this post.

OuchyDathurts Profile Joined September 2010 United States 3693 Posts #76 On April 30 2015 00:32 Bosscelot wrote:

You make some good points but then you almost invalidate them by whining about stupid dumb bullshit.



YOU are responsible for being DDOS'd. Yeah yeah sure so is the person doing it, but if you can't fucking protect yourself then don't whine that tourney admins unpause because you and your team can't get your fucking shit together. Read Destiny's guide and stop making games a fucking JOKE for yourselves, for casters and for viewers. This constant pausing because of DDOS is what will kill Dota 2 in the long run.



And secondly it isn't up to casters to be nice to you. Waaah waaah they were saying mean things as we lost. It isn't their job to be nice. You can criticise them for a lack of knowledge and an inability to consider why a player might make a certain decision but they aren't there to consider your feelings. Holy shit fuck off if you want them to hand you a tissue and say nice things about you on a stream. They're there to cast and to entertain. This applies to tourney admins too; they aren't there to be nice and considerate. They're there to uphold and enforce rules.



DDOS protection is on players, except at a LAN when its on the organizer to have their shit set up properly.



Also real sports casters don't go around shitting on teams, even if the team is bad. It's unprofessional, it looks bad on that caster, the station, and the league. They might say a team has been slumping or had a bad season but they're not going to tear a team or player a new asshole. It's not about "being nice", it's about saying unnecessary things. Everyone knows if a team is bad, no need to be ruthless about it.



On April 30 2015 01:26 PagePincher wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway.



I don't understand. Kelly could have rejected it and why are you mad when she did it out of her own good will knowing she might not be compensated? It happened multiple time too; I don't know whether she's dumb or her team got something back (maybe you know invited?)



Still, i was thankful for the live translation. It was much better than telephone translator and you can listen to players thought right after their matches. I don't understand. Kelly could have rejected it and why are you mad when she did it out of her own good will knowing she might not be compensated? It happened multiple time too; I don't know whether she's dumb or her team got something back (maybe you know invited?)Still, i was thankful for the live translation. It was much better than telephone translator and you can listen to players thought right after their matches.



I have no idea what goes on in the background. But some people have a hard time saying no because they don't want to come off as a dick or have people dislike them. She might not have said no because not translating would be kind of punishing the fans by not letting them have an interview. She might not have said no for behind the scenes translating because then the Chinese players are being punished for not speaking the language, they might not catch a rule or a time or something important and it could be held against them. The bottom line is she shouldn't have been put in the situation in the first place. No one should have to be doing something they didn't sign up for but they feel pressured to do it. DDOS protection is on players, except at a LAN when its on the organizer to have their shit set up properly.Also real sports casters don't go around shitting on teams, even if the team is bad. It's unprofessional, it looks bad on that caster, the station, and the league. They might say a team has been slumping or had a bad season but they're not going to tear a team or player a new asshole. It's not about "being nice", it's about saying unnecessary things. Everyone knows if a team is bad, no need to be ruthless about it.I have no idea what goes on in the background. But some people have a hard time saying no because they don't want to come off as a dick or have people dislike them. She might not have said no because not translating would be kind of punishing the fans by not letting them have an interview. She might not have said no for behind the scenes translating because then the Chinese players are being punished for not speaking the language, they might not catch a rule or a time or something important and it could be held against them. The bottom line is she shouldn't have been put in the situation in the first place. No one should have to be doing something they didn't sign up for but they feel pressured to do it. Staff

meegrean Profile Joined May 2008 Thailand 1493 Posts #77 Always good to hear some thoughts from a progamer. Tactical feeding specialist

eX Killy Profile Joined November 2012 Taiwan 664 Posts Last Edited: 2015-04-30 01:05:34 #78 rofl people actually signed up new accounts just so they can wall of text a bunch of quotes taken out of context. 10/10



for real though thorin thinks hes hot shit talking about a game he doesn't even understand. he seems to have forgotten he was given the boot by ems for being a racist prick. also 10/10 telling it like it is

Aui_2000 Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 137 Posts #79



On April 30 2015 05:55 titansfan wrote:

I'm bored, so let's break down this post:



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On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...



In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.

I'm bored, so let's break down this post:In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.



I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.





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...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...



I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak. I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.



I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.



I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.



I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.





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Summit 2 had extremely faulty computers (etc)



Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon. Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.



Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.



It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.





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DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.



I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events. I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.



You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?



And yes, there are multiple basic requirements for having a LAN. As basic requirements they can not really be mutually exclusive.





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During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;



I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.

I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.



I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in. Ideally you want the better team winning a good % of games more than the worse team (yes not every game). Changing rules and patches mid tounament shifts that dynamic in favour of the worse team. Contrary to popular belief, C9 is the better team in the vast majority of their games. I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.



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Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.



That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.

That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.



Tournaments already go overtime and often have scheduling problems (again, push to standardization of rules). These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.





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For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.



Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.

Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.

While players do have to deal with externalities as a job requirement, I don't think it's an argument for not pushing the scene forward. There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.



It's not faint sounds that you hear at lans.



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In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.





TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written. TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.



I agree completely with both points. The problem is that it is that bad for many lans.



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Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.



It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.

It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.



Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.





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During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.



Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem. Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.



Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap.





I'll take this because as much as I don't agree with Envy on some points nor how he's presenting them, I think he still has some good points and his intentions are to improve the scene.I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?And yes, there are multiple basic requirements for having a LAN. As basic requirements they can not really be mutually exclusive.I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in. Ideally you want the better team winning a good % of games more than the worse team (yes not every game). Changing rules and patches mid tounament shifts that dynamic in favour of the worse team. Contrary to popular belief, C9 is the better team in the vast majority of their games. I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.Tournaments already go overtime and often have scheduling problems (again, push to standardization of rules). These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.While players do have to deal with externalities as a job requirement, I don't think it's an argument for not pushing the scene forward. There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.It's not faint sounds that you hear at lans.I agree completely with both points. The problem is that it is that bad for many lans.Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap. . ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.



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Player's have asked many times for private washrooms but it doesn't seem like anything can be done about it.



"Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50? "Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50?



Come on now. Surely you can understand why people want to be focused on the game during a big lan.



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At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.



Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue. Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.



I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.



I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.





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Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.



Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate. Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.

I think there's a difference between casting and criticizing and willfully embarrassing a team as they lose. I won't comment on toby here because he's definitely grown from that and he's obviously one of the best dota casters but I think envy's sentiment is acceptable.



You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.



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For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.



A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.



TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.



A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.





I'm going to go ahead and say that players being passionate in tournaments and tournaments being profitable go hand in hand. I think you're both oversimplifying and misrepresenting the scene by stating that LANs are some mechanical money machine in which player emotion doesn't matter. I think that part of what compels people to watch competition is seeing people's competitive drives in action and fighting for their dreams. Of course I also recognize that tournies are a business--I'm just saying player emotion increases fan engrossment and should be part of the business plan.



So you're right, teams and tournaments should work together to create a product that is satisfactory to everyone because honestly we're all on the same boat.



Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene. While imo Envy didn't approach nor communicate some things well, I respect him trying to improve the scene a lot.



I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear. Come on now. Surely you can understand why people want to be focused on the game during a big lan.I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.I think there's a difference between casting and criticizing and willfully embarrassing a team as they lose. I won't comment on toby here because he's definitely grown from that and he's obviously one of the best dota casters but I think envy's sentiment is acceptable.You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.I'm going to go ahead and say that players being passionate in tournaments and tournaments being profitable go hand in hand. I think you're both oversimplifying and misrepresenting the scene by stating that LANs are some mechanical money machine in which player emotion doesn't matter. I think that part of what compels people to watch competition is seeing people's competitive drives in action and fighting for their dreams. Of course I also recognize that tournies are a business--I'm just saying player emotion increases fan engrossment and should be part of the business plan.So you're right, teams and tournaments should work together to create a product that is satisfactory to everyone because honestly we're all on the same boat.Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene. While imo Envy didn't approach nor communicate some things well, I respect him trying to improve the scene a lot.I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear. Progamer follow @aui_2000 // www.twitch.tv/aui_2000

bagels21 Profile Joined August 2012 United States 3802 Posts #80 On April 30 2015 10:06 Aui_2000 wrote:

I'll take this because as much as I don't agree with Envy on some points nor how he's presenting them, I think he still has some good points and his intentions are to improve the scene.



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On April 30 2015 05:55 titansfan wrote:

I'm bored, so let's break down this post:



On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...



In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.

I'm bored, so let's break down this post:In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.



I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.



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...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...



I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak. I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.



I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.



I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.



I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.



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Summit 2 had extremely faulty computers (etc)



Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon. Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.



Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.



It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.



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DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.



I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events. I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.



You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?



And yes, there are multiple basic requirements for having a LAN. As basic requirements they can not really be mutually exclusive.



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During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;



I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.

I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.



I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in. Ideally you want the better team winning a good % of games more than the worse team (yes not every game). Changing rules and patches mid tounament shifts that dynamic in favour of the worse team. Contrary to popular belief, C9 is the better team in the vast majority of their games. I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.

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Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.



That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.

That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.



Tournaments already go overtime and often have scheduling problems (again, push to standardization of rules). These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.



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For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.



Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.

Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.

While players do have to deal with externalities as a job requirement, I don't think it's an argument for not pushing the scene forward. There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.



It's not faint sounds that you hear at lans.

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In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.





TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written. TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.



I agree completely with both points. The problem is that it is that bad for many lans.

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Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.



It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.

It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.



Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.



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During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.



Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem. Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.



Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap.





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. ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.

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Player's have asked many times for private washrooms but it doesn't seem like anything can be done about it.



"Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50? "Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50?



Come on now. Surely you can understand why people want to be focused on the game during a big lan.



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At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.



Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue. Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.



I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.



I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.



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Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.



Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate. Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.

I think there's a difference between casting and criticizing and willfully embarrassing a team as they lose. I won't comment on toby here because he's definitely grown from that and he's obviously one of the best dota casters but I think envy's sentiment is acceptable.



You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.

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For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.



A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.



TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.



A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.





I'm going to go ahead and say that players being passionate in tournaments and tournaments being profitable go hand in hand. I think you're both oversimplifying and misrepresenting the scene by stating that LANs are some mechanical money machine in which player emotion doesn't matter. I think that part of what compels people to watch competition is seeing people's competitive drives in action and fighting for their dreams. Of course I also recognize that tournies are a business--I'm just saying player emotion increases fan engrossment and should be part of the business plan.



So you're right, teams and tournaments should work together to create a product that is satisfactory to everyone because honestly we're all on the same boat.



Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene. While imo Envy didn't approach nor communicate some things well, I respect him trying to improve the scene a lot.



I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear. I'll take this because as much as I don't agree with Envy on some points nor how he's presenting them, I think he still has some good points and his intentions are to improve the scene.I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?And yes, there