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1 (If you’re in the 1% of unpaid internships where you are actually getting some training, I also think you deserve to be paid so everyone has the opportunity to apply. See Intern Aware for UK specific information about this).

Ask why you’re not being paid. Try and learn more about your rights. Take a test case (if you’re able) looking for lost earnings, as this journalism intern has done in the UK . Consider pro bono work (pro bono means “for the good” not “for free”). Help out a local charity or organisation in return for creative freedom and a chance to experiment. Network, go to events, meet people, develop your skills, and don’t get taken advantage of.

I struggle to understand how it’s not a criminal offence to have someone work for free given our minimum wage laws , and would love to hear to the contrary.

It’s also my understanding that no employment contract can over-rule your basic right to a minimum wage. So you can’t “give away” your rights to a wage. From doing a bit of research , the guidance in the UK seems to be that if your work is not focussed on training, and you are doing the work of an employee, then you are not an intern and have the right to the minimum wage – I haven’t seen anything to the contrary in Irish law.

I’m not a lawyer. And as with any discussion about the law on the internet, we can talk about it all we want but only a Judge’s decision matters. But the main points, to me, are:

Here’s who it hurts – companies that want to pay people a decent wage for work they do. If a company can get away with getting someone to work for free, AND have their clients pay for this work, then how can their competition (that’s paying its employees) match them on price? Either they go bust, or sack their employees and take on some interns.

Here’s who it hurts – people who need a wage in order to survive. If a company can get away with having people work for free, why would they bother to employ someone?

Here’s who it hurts – interns. You have them working for nothing. Zero. That, after coming from a period of unemployment so bad that they would consider working for nothing for three months, must kill someone’s self esteem. Plus, from the ads and job expectations I’ve seen I struggle to see any benefit.

Did you do work experience at Pentagram? Ogilvy? Happy Cog? No – you worked for some company I might barely have heard of, doing work that they didn’t consider was good enough to pay you for. I’m sorry, but the big message it sends is that you were desperate and taken advantage of.

First off – are they really that awesome? Secondly – will it really look great in my CV? If I Google the team I’ll be working with, will I see incredibly talented, thoughtful, engaging people who are famous in their field or industry, and acknowledged by awards and/or peer respect for the work they do? When I move on from my internship with this awesome team, will my next potential employer go “Wow, you worked with ‘Famous Web Designer who spoke at Build’ … what’s he/she like?”. Or will they just go … “who?”.

There’s often the carrot dangled that after three months, there’s the chance of a job. Well big fucking deal. Surely that’s what a job interview is for. Say you do get the job – after a year there you’ve only earned 75% of what you should have been paid, because you spent three months working for nothing.

People used to enter into years-long apprenticeships as stone masons – but they built cathedrals. Magnificent feats of engineering that have lasted hundreds of years and inspired religious devotion and artistic delight. You can’t apply the same logic to an “apprenticeship” building Facebook pages .

It’s the responsibility of an employee to stay up-to-date and the responsibility of an employer to facilitate that – by allowing time for learning and training throughout the year. In web design, development, social media – new shit is coming at you all the time. Work for nothing for three months, struggle to get a job (because all the good ones are gone to the next batch of interns) and in a year a lot of what you learned is out of date.

If you’re spending most of your time: 1) Cold calling and filling databases – you’re learning fuck-all and just generating new business for your boss; 2) Doing work you’re already good at, that the company is charging for – you’re learning fuck-all. And you’re not on an internship. You are working, in a job, and are entitled to and deserve AT LEAST the minimum wage.

Hey, if you genuinely do get training, good for you. You still should get paid though. (See footnote 1 ).

I’ve seen other internships posted for agencies where they again won’t pay you but are asking you to either doing cold-calling and data-entry for them (which is not valuable work experience) or asking you to do client work. Now, if the work you produce is of a high enough standard that the company will charge a client for it, then surely you have enough skills and experience to be paid for that work?

My issue with this is that if someone has excellent skills and experience – sufficient to produce work that is of a professional enough standard that it will be used to market the company – surely they deserve to be paid?

Here’s another one for GoHop.ie ( screenshot – ad no longer online ). They are looking for “a bright, bubbly design/multimedia graduate” to work for nothing for them. You’ll be “creating faxes/email newsletters and designing print collateral/ads & web banners and roll out some microwebsites.” This job is apparently for someone straight out of college, however you need “an excellent working knowledge” of the Adobe Suite (Photoshop etc), Dreamweaver and WordPress. In return for producing all this marketing collateral that they will be using to make money, you will gain “all important working experience” and your bus fare. No training mentioned at all.

I keep on seeing bullshit ads like this one on Gumtree for Dealbook.ie ( screenshot ) for a “Website Graphic Designer Intern”. You are expected to work for nothing – for what? Doesn’t say. What will you get out of it? Doesn’t say. What do they get out of it? Free work produced for them, that they can use to make money. So, you work, get nothing. They use your work, get money. (Well, they might make money. The Groupon bandwagon must be very close to tipping over right now.)

To be clear – I have zero issues with people who take up unpaid internships, and only hope this might help in some way stop this practice. This is all opinion, please contact the NERA if you have a question about your employment right.

TL;DR – Getting an intern is so hot right now. It’s also bullshit 99% of the time. If you are doing commercial work with little to no training component, you aren’t an intern and you deserve at least the minimum wage. This post is mainly about that, and mostly focussed on web design and related service industries as it is my area of expertise.

Nice post Stu. Internships can exist and be beneficial – but there needs to be a strong training element. Sadly a lot of companies seem to think that ‘Internship’ is a magic word that absolves them from paying for work.

Under the Act it is a Criminal Offence to deny a worker the minimum wage. Importantly it is for the Company to prove they did not have to pay the worker … pointing to the word ‘Internship’ is not going to work. There is no judge in the country that will accept that. Chris / Jun 30th, 2011 at 10:52 am

Edit: Typo in title. Blame the intern. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 11:46 am

I agree with a lot of points here but also feel that if it done right it can be a great thing. We took on 5 interns in the last 6 months for 3 months each and 4 of them now have full time jobs here. We pay them 250 Euros so as it doesn’t cost them anything to get to work etc. We make sure that there is an interview process and it’s very much like a proper job interview because we only want the best people and recognize that there are lots of talented people out there not able to get a start. Having said all of that there are tons of companies looking for free work. Unless you are upfront and honest with the intern and what they will be doing and what is expected of them you’ll just end up with people who don’t come in on time and don’t feel any responsability for their work. What companies need to realize as well is that if you are taking on interns it will impact on your own time as you will have to train them and hold their hand to get them to where you want to. I come from a restaurant background where people “pitch” to work for 3 months in the best places for free just for the experience and I started out working for free in Michelin star restaurants just to learn. It’s like every form of business though some people are just out to abuse and take advantage of people as you highlight here. Great post BTW. Niall Harbison / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:03 pm

As long as graduates are willing to work for free, this will always happen. Sadly, with so many design graduates out there. Many in love with the idea of being a designer. Will happily work for free, not only on internships. Lots of graduates do tons of free freelance work just for the experience. In my career, having done some free work has opened doors. But the power & money comes from the word ‘No’. Benjash / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

Hey man, Loved this article, but there are a couple of typos in there! Otherwise keep up the good fight. Jim / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:12 pm

Hi Niall – thanks for your reply. Was the €250 for three months? Because that works out about 50 cents an hour, which won’t buy you lunch and bus fair in Dublin. I appreciate it does cost the employer time to train people in, but to be fair that used to be just part of doing business. I’m from a restaurant background myself – as I was family the rules didn’t apply to me. However there are very specific laws and regulations regarding apprenticehsips for the hotel and catering industry. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:18 pm

thanks – lesson learned – write in anger, spell-check at leisure. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:28 pm

No 250 per month. Not a fortune by any means but enough for the bus and a bit of lunch. Am sure there are very serious laws now for apprentices in hotel industry but back in my day you bust your balls just to get in somewhere for a 3 month stage. I think it’s an open market TBH for everybody. If I was 18 now I’d be working for free or networking like you say or going to Australia or making whatever choice was right for me. Our own situation is quite different because we are growing so fast. When we take 3 interns on now this month we don’t have the capacity to hire them full time but by the time we do in a month or two they will be in the number one position for a full time job. You might agree with the approach or not but at the end of the day it’s creating jobs in Ireland that were not there before. We could take a more cautious approach and not hire any interns at all and just wait until we needed full time people but the level of talent and drive that young people have means they often help grow the business to a level where they become indispensable to us and we hire them. So to sum up am completely for interns if done right but realize plenty of people out there milking the system and that’s not right. Niall Harbison / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

I graduated over a year ago, and this post really hits home. Just thinking about the above quote: “As long as graduates are willing to work for free, this will always happen.” Colleges are mis-informing students and graduates – they are being told that this is now the normal the way to ‘get in the door’, and that this is standard practice to get a job. It’s presented as the ‘harsh reality of the job market’ and that if you suck it up and stick it out, that you’ll look great and either non-paying company will transform you into a paid employee OR you’ll be seen as more desirable to other companies who do pay. Which is rubbish…. It’s portrayed as far more favourable than not-working and spending the time looking for paid work -> which could take months and create a tarnishing ‘gap’ on your CV. Unfortunetly, it’s this bullshit that’s re-enforcing the foundation of the Unpaid Internship Paradigm -and more and more companies are trying to take advantage of it. This is, in fact, increasing the amount of graduates who emmigrate, as the job’s scene is painted as ‘you’re lucky we let you work here unpaid’. While a lot of graduates emmigrate ever year (it’s no secret), this number is steadily increasing. Many graduates cite this ‘unpaid job-entry strategy’ as the reason for emmigrating. At a pre-graduation level, Most work placements/internships in college are not paid, as the college has no onus to find you paid work. (nor have they an onus to find you work btw, but they specifically advertise to companies that they have students willing to take unpaid work placements for 6months+ …). I remember in my recent tenure we where told we had to take any placements that the college recommended (all unpaid and required longer commutes, of course) – otherwise we’d fail that year (for not having completed the work experience/internship module). While of course this in line with an academic pursuit, It still falls under the heading of ‘do work, don’t get paid, they own your work and use it to make money.) Whether you’re a student or not -> Bills have to be paid, food purchased, and bus tickets need to be payed for. Down with this sort of thing. Philip / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

If it’s a job you’ve created Niall then surely you should be paying the minimum wage? Did you look into the legalities of it before hiring interns? I also disagree a bit with the idea that it’s ok to take people on for free if you can’t afford to pay them – surely that’s your problem, not the interns? admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:46 pm

I’m really proud of our internship program at iQ. First off, there are 3 (soon to be 4) on it and it’s clear they are amazingly talented. We’re lucky to have them. They’re working on a pretty cool project (many of us are quite jealous). They are being nurtured (or should that be “managed”?) by one of our top guys, John Wood. Our goal is not to get cheap work out the door, a higher margin, but find the best talent we can, for the long term. There’s lots of other good stuff. Oh, yeah, we pay them. We think that’s pretty important. Lar Lar Veale / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

Yep all covered on that side of things. I didn’t say we couldn’t afford to pay them what I said was we didn’t capacity. For a small company like us even taking on an intern involves costs of getting desks, software licenses and other equipment etc. Anyway without getting in to the details of it I agree with internships if done right. I think its easy for all of us who have jobs and are further down the line in our careers to sit back and pass judgement but If I was 18 I’d rather get out and work in the field for free than sit at home watching telly. Niall Harbison / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

Niall I don’t feel I’m passing judgement, I think it’s important for people who work in an industry to watch out for people starting off their careers. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:54 pm

Thanks Lar I’ll update the post to reflect that admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

I’ve *never* ever understood the concept of internships. Ever. It seems wholly bizarre to me that there’s an entire segment of the workforce that submits to this. How is it ‘creating jobs’ if people don’t get paid? The govt could simply say that *everyone* now has a job and unemployment’s at 0 if ‘having a job’ is divorced from income. The entire premise behind interns is ‘milking the industry’. This ‘one true scotsman’ fallacy at work – “others may be abusing it, but I’m doing it fine” is also bullshit. Michael Kimsal / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

[...] Comments Hacker News [...] Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships « Wobbits / Jun 30th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

Any (Irish) employer reading this thread should do themselves a favour and access the links provided to get the guidance on the Minimum Wage Laws in Ireland. 1) It doesn’t matter what you call it – if the person is working at your direction in your company and the focus of the work is your business not their training, then you can call it an internship all you want, the reality is they are an employee and that’s what a judge will decide. Judges don’t give a damn about your contracts, definitions, or labels. 2) It is a Criminal Offence to deny an employee the minimum wage. Read that again. Yes … Criminal Offence. 3) It is the onus of the Employer to prove they are not obliged to pay the minimum wage. …good luck with that. If you run a company in Ireland you are responsible to your shareholders to protect that company from risk. Ignoring your legal obligations to pay employees the minimum wage because – that’s the practice now, or we can’t afford it – exposes your company to legal risk. Managing a company is about managing resources. If you can’t afford to pay someone the minimum wage – then you can’t afford to hire them. If you want to run an internship program to help teach people the industry then by all means do so … but the focus must be on training them. Be sure to highlight what they will learn and how, and ideally pay them some thing to help them along. You can call it an internship, a step along the way to employment, or anything else you want. But at the end of the day cheap labour is exploitation. Employers should consider what type of company they want to be. Chris / Jun 30th, 2011 at 1:00 pm

Here here!! Lisa Jackson / Jun 30th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

Great post Stu – I agree with you 100%. I’d take this a step further though and suggest that unpaid internships are awful for the businesses too. Ok you get someone to work for free but what is the likelihood they’ll stay with your firm? How much time has been spend instructing them on brand guidelines? How much knowledge do they leave with about your business and your clients? I’d suggest that instead of looking for people to be unpaid interns, that businesses look for people who were unpaid interns with your competitors. Christian / Jun 30th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

I spoke about this on local radio this morning and agree with your views on it. However there is another important point; beside the merits or drawbacks of an Internship Scheme it fails to address the actual problem. We do not have nearly 400,000 unemployed people in this country because they are not skilled enough or lack experience. We have nearly 400,000 unemployed because the economy is in the toilet. Rather than coming up with hamfisted PR-excercises like this the government should actually address the problem and make it more attractive for employers to create more jobs and for other people to start their own business. Only that will make a real difference. Evert Bopp / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

Great post. I’ve been seeing so many of those “cool, internships for the right candidate” nonsense, floating around these days. Yes, the person is learning but the person MUST have some skills you identified & these are worth something. Not paying = no valuing Gianni Ponzi / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:19 pm

Thanks Evert – I wasn’t referring to WPP or JobBridge in my post (though I do have issues with them) – I am much more concerned with employers making up their own definition of an internship and asking people to work for them for nothing – no wages, no training. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

Stu, absolutely. It comes across as profiteering in my opinion. Evert Bopp / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

100% agree. Internships are immoral fiacre / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

If the carrot of a job at the end is being dangled then the ‘internship’ is really an unpaid probation period. Unless, the internship is dedicated training. James Gallagher / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:26 pm

Great article, and I agree with most of your points, however I do want to address the issue of “free work” and peoples general disagreement with it. I’m not sure if it is a growing trend or just something people have started to fully support more and more, but I do not agree with the notion that any free work or cheap work is immoral. If you are breaking into an industry, one where you have little to no experience, one of the best things you can do is to do great work for much cheaper than your competition…. simple capitalism. People who think that they are above this concept and hold their work in such high esteem are frankly going to be “overworked” by people out there hustling and trying to get their name out. I will say that some companies do abuse the unpaid internship, but the responsibility for finding a good credible internship lies just as much with the intern as with hiring company. Bottom line when breaking into an industry is if you do great work and offer your services for lower than your competitors (be it free or otherwise), you will more than likely be noticed and will be presented with a job that pays what you deserve fairly quickly. Everyone has to pay the piper. Bryant / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:36 pm

I’m with Niall in that I don’t think internships are entirely a bad thing. It’s very, very expensive to hire someone full-time if you’re a small business and, particularly in web/digital where a certain aptitude, attitude, talent and work ethic are required, it’s very difficult to vet someone completely over the course of a couple of interviews. If you hire the wrong person and a few months down the line realise they’re not up for the job, it can be very hard to get rid of them. Best case scenario, you’re paying for dead wood. Worse case – your business goes under. We’ve hired interns in the past ourselves. They were paid internships but probably not as much as minimum wage (although I might be wrong there). Either way, they just weren’t on the payroll. We’ve offered a few of our interns ful-time salaried positions, a few others are working on a freelance basis with us now on industry rates, one was snapped up by a competitor and there were a few we wouldn’t work with again as they weren’t up to scratch. It’s been a very useful way to vet potential employees. We’d also offer a mentoring element to our interns obviously. Done right and with integrity, internships can be a good thing IMO. Ken / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:42 pm

Unscrupulous employers exist and will exploit free interns by treating them as “slaves”.

Matching the Intern to the Employer and carrying out scenario planning to examine the possible outcome of the internship is essential for an internship to have beneficial results for both parties. The host organisation should show that it is a “Learning” organisation. Good external review is essential where the organisation does not have a track record of successful training. July 2011 INTERNSHIPS

Internships (5000) are now being organised by the Irish Government. Candidates must be unemployed and signing on for three months or more in order to qualify. Successful candidates will receive in company training and an additional fifty Euro per week and retain their job seekers payment etc.

Ellis will assist candidates with their applications (no charge) 01 6793561 and assist employers to get involved with the scheme.

John Ellis of Ellis Employment states “This is a positive move and reminiscence of the Work Experience schemes of the 1980’s which resulted in hundreds of young people gaining a foothold in the world of work.” Ellis Employment provides a multi-layered/multi-discipline Human Resource consultancy and carries on a tradition of recruitment from 15 College Green Dublin 2 established in 1961. http://www.agency.ie

“JobBridge” programme http://jobbridge.ie/ JohnEllisDublin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:44 pm

I have been through multiple courses where there is an ‘internship’ element. A lot of these government schemes for Jobseekers are filled up with companies who just want professional work for free, will not provide training, and are not even that committed to the end result. The side effect of all of these government schemes is that they are causing enormous price pressure at the lower rungs of the web development market. Interns working for free are pricing their future self out of a job. Richard Conroy / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:48 pm

100% agreed and glad to see this getting discussed. In my experience unpaid internships are bad for employers and bad for interns. If you work for next to nothing on projects that earn money for a colleague it’s demoralising and can kill motivation to do your best which is bad news for both parties. Unpaid internships that cover basics like travel expenses and lunch sound a lot more like volunteering to me, not interning. I’ve had 2 excellent paid internships both before and during my degree. I’ve also volunteered for a lot of different things over the years and this is generally what you will get in return for your time and work on whatever event/festival you volunteer for. Not to go too anal on this but the dictionary term describes an intern as “a student or trainee who works , sometimes without pay, in order to gain work experience or satisfy requirements for a qualification”. A good wedge of the unpaid internships I’ve come across aren’t meant to be opportunities to gain some experience to satisfy a degree requirement but rather to satisfy the needs of an organisation that wants low cost staff. And here is where heart of the problem lies in my opinion. Steph / Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:51 pm

Great post Stu. Couldn’t agree with you more. I was toying with the idea of entering an internship recently, until I saw what was on the briefs for these ‘positions’. Won’t go into details, but let’s just say if the person had the skill-set required, surely they’d be better off working for themselves…? Oh yeah that’s right, most of the prospective interns don’t have the required skillset, which is why they are considering unpaid internship in the first place. Too many companies out there have been using this recession to their advantage. Nick / Jun 30th, 2011 at 3:01 pm

While in college i chased a small design studio you have never heard of to take me as an unpaid intern.

I learnt loads just watching them run a studio and work with clients.

I do not see how they could possibly have justified paying me for the little value i gave back.

Still gratefull for the opportunity they gave me. Alan O'Rourke / Jun 30th, 2011 at 3:03 pm

[...] What do they get out of it? Free work produced for them, that they can use to make money. … Read More…free work training – Google Blog [...] Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships | Irishstu.com Blog - Online Shopping Easier - AdShopEasy / Jun 30th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

What’s your response to the (very common) claim that companies are lucky if they get as much out of an intern as they put into them? I.e. A “good” intern is one where their productivity actually justifies the time and energy required to manage them. I agree that intern positions should be paid, but an intern program that is perceived as little more than charity by the company is simply not sustainable. So what’s the solution? Robert K / Jun 30th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

@Bryant – if you work for free you are placing no value in what you produce.

@Ken – appreciate the points you are making there, and knowing you guys I can be pretty certain it was a positive and valuable experience for the people involved.

@Alan – glad that you had a positive experience. My big issue is with companies looking for people who already have experience to do work they are already familiar with, and offer no training or mentoring.

@John – I’d have my reservations about WPP and JobBridge, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make here.

@RobertK – if you want someone to be productive, employ someone with skills and experience. The point of an internship is that you’re supposed to teach them, not make money out of them. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 4:01 pm

I see them differently. My view is that while an intern, you are looking for jobs every day. Its your goal to find something before the internship ends.

If you get an offer, then you are gone in a flash. One pays the other does not-simple. If they still wanted you, they would offer you a real job to keep you. I object to FAS’s 9MONTH! intern program and even 6mths sounds long. Yes FAS has a data entry WPP ‘employer’!! Stephen / Jun 30th, 2011 at 4:15 pm

The light grey text on white background of this blog is nearly impossible to read. Wolter / Jun 30th, 2011 at 4:19 pm

you sound like a bitter 18 year old out of high school and couldn’t get an internship due to a lack of skill. the other interns probably took that dream job and now you’re stuck doing some bs low level job. people value things differently. this post is worthless, thoughtless, and makes you sound childish. tommy / Jun 30th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

@tommy Thank you for your insightful comment. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 5:45 pm

If “the point of an internship is that you’re supposed to teach [the intern], not make money out of them”, then why pay them??? A company isn’t a university. It’s not a classroom. In fact, if it were, then the interns would be paying the company. (Hell, that’s basically what private universities are, fancy intern programs.) And, yes, I’m being deliberately obtuse. Companies aren’t charities, and to insist they should behave as such is naive. (Mind you, I think it’s great when they do, and more power to ‘em.) Internships are a bartered arrangement where value can and should flow both directions. Companies will (hopefully) get some decent work out of an intern, and interns will (hopefully) get some good experience, training, and resume fodder. If that value proposition isn’t equitable than it’s perfectly reasonable to claim monetary compensation things out. If, as you point out, the intern is offering considerable value with little to no return from the company, then the company should absolutely be paying for their services. But what if the value imbalance goes the other way? Should software developer interns at Google or Facebook be paying for the privilege of working there? Lord knows that’s tremendously valuable experience for them, and I’m pretty sure there are plenty who’d pay for the opportunity. (Disclaimer I work for Facebook and am making this argument solely for rhetorical purposes.) I see nothing wrong with unpaid internships as long as both parties feel they’re getting fair value out of the arrangement. If a company can convince an intern to work for them for free, more power to them, as long as they’re up front and honest in how they go about it. And if an intern can sucker a company into paying them a salary, even better still. Robert K / Jun 30th, 2011 at 6:04 pm

Very little I agree with here and the profanity seems phony, though I haven’t read other posts to see if that is just the standard fare.

One narrow wedge of agreement: there are plenty of crappy people in the world willing to take advantage of you. Look out for them, it is your responsibility to protect yourself.

From our small perspective, we are flooded each spring with college seniors looking for internships. We don’t want them. They beg us to take them on, because they have to fulfill a degree requirement. And, they have to satisfy the Intern Nazi at the college. They’ve been bright, talented kids in every instance. We try to give them something challenging or interesting… but as I said we don’t really want to be in this position. And as nice as they may be, I don’t want them and shouldn’t have to pay them. We always do pay them — out of guilt — and I hate feeling guilty when the whole thing is between them and the college! I hate it.

Finally, you are not entitled to anything. If you are dumb enough to work for free, mark it off as a poor decision and move on. Personally, I wouldn’t do it. K Clark / Jun 30th, 2011 at 6:50 pm

I totally agree… any that’s why we pay our interns (and their travel expenses) =D James Robert / Jun 30th, 2011 at 7:21 pm

@Robert K It’s funny the way you end up at the opposite extreme that a “company isn’t a charity”. Neither is an employee or intern. “If, as you point out, the intern is offering considerable value … then the company should absolutely be paying for their services.” That’s highly subjective, isn’t it. The value “back” is at the employers discretion to divulge. Since true profits are frequently hidden the intern has no idea how useful they may in fact have been. The finance department might know, the higher ups in marketing might. The higher ups lick up to the boss and keep them sweet so they don’t divulge information like this to lower down fools and worse, interns. The boss in turn may clap their hands at this wonderful arrangement. A decent boss may decide to do the right thing, but I don’t come across many who aren’t obsessively considering their bottom line. Stu, they’re right – the grey text is TOO light. John Ward / Jun 30th, 2011 at 7:34 pm

I have to say I agree with the overall thrust of this article. From the perspective of an intern it’s desperation and the perspective of an employer it’s exploitation of a desperate situation. That is what internships are. The only useful ones are in large companies where you might be able to leverage the benefits of those places and an appearance on a CV might be beneficial. John Ward / Jun 30th, 2011 at 7:59 pm

@K Clark – I rarely if ever write long posts like this. Sorry if the profanity offends, it’s how I usually speak when I’m with friends and annoyed about something! You don’t say where you are offering interships but in the jobs I’ve linked and seen posted we’re not in the White House/Nasa/Sterling Cooper Draper Price leagues, plus there’s very little talk of training and a lot f talk of required skills and the ability to produce work to a professional standard – i.e. not graduates with zero experience. Also, from my reading of Irish employment law, people are entitled to a wage.

@John Ward – comment on the grey text noted. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 8:41 pm

It poetic to lament how the whole world is not fair, especially to those poor interns. Natural selection will determine that the ‘suckers’ get (cough) ‘sucked’ while the astute decision makers will make good decisions about the pros and cons of taking an unpaid internship. If the lack of business acumen doesn’t get them, something else will. I would never trade the experience and lessons from my own unpaid internship. I wanted to work, I wanted to be better at my profession and I was prepared to do that for free. My ‘employer’ supported it, my family supported it and it (looking back 12 years later) was an excellent decision. I don’t think its right to deny someone the opportunity because society thinks its not fair. Capitalism Baby! I would hope that full time employees can compete by bringing more to the table in terms of their skills, experience and contributions. I like the ‘pro bono’ angle, put ‘pro bono’ in the tag line of your interns job posting to keep the judges happy. To the poets… I’m sorry the world is not fair. EOIN / Jun 30th, 2011 at 8:43 pm

The large number of unpaid internships on offer now are a direct result of the larger market for employment. No one is hiring. The issue isn’t “unpaid internships are BS” or “unpaid internships suck”, it’s that they suck less than not working at all. What would you rather see on a resume, 6 months of unpaid work at xyz company that no one has heard of, or 6 months of sitting around doing nothing? That’s the realistic choice set for many recent graduates. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this. Ian Thiel / Jun 30th, 2011 at 8:47 pm

@Ian Thiel – if the trend of having people work for free continues it will become even more difficult to get a job. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 8:58 pm

“if the trend of having people work for free continues it will become even more difficult to get a job” People aren’t as stupid as you make them out to be and no one is holding a gun to their head. If working as an unpaid intern is indeed horrible and so incredibly lacking in non-monetary value, then people will learn there is no reason to voluntarily engage (or continue) in such a relationship. Sam / Jun 30th, 2011 at 10:31 pm

There are a few things to be aware of on this. First of all this is about the situation in Ireland, where there exists a minimum wage under our laws. Practices around internships may be different in other countries.

The second thing to note is that these ‘internships’ are far too frequently looking for people with professional qualifications and a few years experience already under their belt – in many cases recently unemployed. This is not a situation of someone coming fresh out of college and needing some experience on their Cv. Many of these positions require the candidates to have 2 years + of experience already and professional qualifications and skills that will be used by the company. There is no training envisioned. Just free (or cheap) labour. Chris / Jun 30th, 2011 at 10:35 pm

@Sam – if the number of unpaid roles go up, the number of paying jobs will go down – making it harder for people to get a paying job in the first place. I never said people were stupid, and I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I don’t hold people applying for internships accountable – I know times are hard, but that doesn’t make it ok for employers to take the piss, and look for people with skills and experience to work for nothing. admin / Jun 30th, 2011 at 10:43 pm

@Sam Yet, look at Honduras mate, or China, Taiwan, India – yeah voluntary engagement. It’s called desperation and complete lack of choice. Of course there are courses you can take (Britain, Oz, Canada) but they’re big choices and choices is the wrong word, more so starvation survival. @Chris and @Michael Kimsal – You summed it up nicely lads / lassies John Ward / Jun 30th, 2011 at 11:05 pm

*focused Sorry, pet peeve. Cracking post. I lived for several years in the United States of America and I’ve found that this kind of thing is very common there. It’s one thing when a big name company (Google, Apple, HP, Intel etc.) offers an unpaid internship, but a metric fuckton of no-name creative and design companies offer exactly this kind of deal. I’m pretty sad to see that this bullshit has finally reached our pristine emerald shores. Have a gander through the Craigslist site (try Los Angeles or San Diego) job listings sometime. Mark / Jun 30th, 2011 at 11:18 pm

This has been so true, for so long. If you’re not already aware of the American model, you need to be — which in the UK, we’re slowly becoming so, given that “unpaid internships” were recently subject to a debate over upper/middle class privileges: aka, networking when your parents still support you. Look up Disney, and how they get 9k+ paid (yes! they pay them, but wait for it) student placements [b]for academic credits[/b] working in their parks per year. Jobs on min. wage, 14 hrs / day, 6 days a week, with… [b]no training, unless you count adjudicating a height level on magic mountain[/b]. So you get academic credits for propping up the business plan of Disney. Hmm. This is only the tip of the iceberg – entire sectors (hello politicians – probably the worst for this) work on voluntary time given for “social” benefits (aka – you ‘might’ get on the ladder). This is what really irks me – we supposedly live in a hyper-capitalist system, and yet… constantly, and without fail, all major companies and players abuse the crap out of young people so that they can pay them nothing (the golden “open to graduates” but “must have 2 years experience for this position to photocopy & email for me” bollocks). The hypocrisy must end. Full disclosure: employed 5 16-18 yr olds, including apprentices (where, legally, the uk allows £2.49 / hr) @ £5 / hr rate. Given the job, the experience, the location and so on… a much better deal than their older, graduated, brothers & sisters are getting. tldr; Capitalism is a crock of shit when it takes the piss this badly. So Very True / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:26 am

A few opinions on this: * I hate the idea of asking permission to be successful. I.E., college career advice does seem too focused on lining you up for employers. I’d like to see less focus on fitting the bill and more on personal fulfillment and reputation.

* There’s always going to be legitimate reasons for working for free. Sometimes experience and/or training is good enough.

* The question to ask is: What value can the intern provide? If the intern (possibly with supervision and oversight) can complete real work that requires skill then they should be getting paid. Where the employer comes out net in profit, they should compensate the intern appropriately.

* The big companies who really get it (and actually want to employ their interns) expend considerable effort to select interns and compensate them handsomely (plus training is often, professional, and structured).

* This is part of a much larger problem around valuing work and skill. Spec work has long devalued designers’ talents, and now sites like 99designs and Orange Slyce devalue the talents of every designer who applies (or, competes). David. David Doran / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:30 am

@stu – “if the trend of having people work for free continues it will become even more difficult to get a job.” Just to be clear, opinion stated as fact or is there some basis for this assertion? I’ll admit I’m pretty conflicted right now. I think responsibility has to fall back on the person themselves, not the business. If someone is prepared to do ‘pro bono’ work and a business offers that opportunity with no obligation I think its the individuals choice to take it, or not. An important point made earlier, would sitting idle on the couch be better than doing ‘pro bono’ work. Supply and demand works. If ‘pro bono’ workers are outperforming paid workers, the business is in trouble anyway; If a ‘pro bono’ worker realizes he is outperforming paid workers, he’ll be quick to ask for a paycheck or quick to move on… and if he doesn’t then its his own responsibility, not the business and not ‘the judges’. The ‘market’ will determine this. Certainly some great points being made on both sides, an excellent post! EOIN / Jul 1st, 2011 at 2:21 am

Interesting, what are your perspectives on non-paid government internships, and NGO internships? AD / Jul 1st, 2011 at 8:38 am

When you have no experience it can be hard to get the first step on the ladder. It’s the whole ‘you need experience to get the job, but you need a job to get experience’. This is not so much an issue now with IT as there is a shortage, but is more the case in, say, marketing. So you offer some work for free, that’s what the employer gets. You get the experience. It’s a basic trade. OK it’s not high end, but you gain experience of an office environment in the area you choose. You assertion that you would be better off following a few people on twitter is totally wrong. Get out, get working, build your experience. When you have build up skills and experience you can charge more for your services. Garet / Jul 1st, 2011 at 9:43 am

@Garet – the examples I gave were looking for people who have experience. Also, most ads I see aren’t offering experience, they are looking for people to do work they already know how to do, for free. admin / Jul 1st, 2011 at 9:51 am

Your right about looking for experienced people to intern. That’s bullshit. Those companies you show are chancers. My point was more for the starter person, fresh from school or college. Garet / Jul 1st, 2011 at 10:40 am

As an aside – salaries in web/digital for capable people have never been higher and the demand for talent far outstrips supply. So at least that’s something to be happy about if you’re an employee or looking for work. Ken / Jul 1st, 2011 at 10:54 am

An excellent post! Shared! Devan Rehunathan / Jul 1st, 2011 at 11:26 am

@Garet – I don’t have all the answers but I’d like to think that there’s an alternative to working for free – if it’s good enough to be used commercially then it should be paid for. Otherwise you are devaluing what you offer.

@Eoin – If it’s a choice of work for nothing or sit on the couch then I’d like to hope that there’s a third option. As for the world not being fair – if people just accepted that and did nothing to change things then the situation will just get shittier. admin / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:21 pm

I totally agree with this post. I worked as an unpaid intern in an agency that actually had more interns than paid full time employees. They dangled the “you could get a job after the 3 months” carrot above our heads the entire time. There was NO training and we all did the work of full time employees and were expected to work up to 50 hours a week if necessary. A good few had experience working in other countries at top agencies but could not break into the market here. After 3 months was up they promised they’d take us on in another month. Then another month rolled in and out, and no job offers. Not one of us got a job and did full time employment with no training for at least 6 months. When we left a new batch of interns came in. At the minimum, companies should need to offer payment to interns for transport and meals. It is a good opportunity to break into a hard market but there are plenty of lines that are being crossed by companies as they are aware that interns have no other choice. HB / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:23 pm

@admin “If it’s a choice of work for nothing or sit on the couch then I’d like to hope that there’s a third option” That third option (at least a third) might be communal/charity/social work, which often benefits the community you work/live in, rather than just one specific company. Giving away your time to causes you believe in is fine, but the motivation should be giving to the community, not padding your resume. Michael Kimsal / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:29 pm

@HB – have you considered contacting NERA and seeing if you can get back pay for this work? From what I’ve been told if you were doing the same work as a paid employee then you could be entitled to the same pay (i.e. not just minimum wage) I’m afraid though it’s one for the lawyers, but if you or anyone else is in a position to do so I’d be interested in seeing how that worked out. admin / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:44 pm

@Michael – I fully support Pro Bono work, I think it’s very rewarding for everyone involved. admin / Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:45 pm

@admin I haven’t as I hadn’t heard of being able to notify anyone as I was told by lots of people that its just what you need to do to get into the industry, wish I had known. Graduates are pretty much told that the only way they’ll break into the industry is by doing internships, they aren’t told about the legalities and rights they have. I blame the colleges as much as the companies! HB / Jul 1st, 2011 at 1:07 pm

Comments closed, it’s the weekend. Follow me on twitter @irishstu if you found this at all interesting. admin / Jul 1st, 2011 at 5:34 pm

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