After Natasha’s mother died she discovered her diaries. What she read was horrifying to the average person but had the opposite effect on her. She shares about her mother’s apparent Borderline Personality Disorder and how it has affected her. PillPack sponsors this show. For your first month free go to Pillpack.com/happyhour .

Episode notes:



PillPack sponsors this show. For your first month free go to Pillpack.com/happyhour.

Episode Transcript:



Natasha L.

Welcome to Episode 164 with my guest Natasha L. I'm Paul Gilmartin, this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, two hours of honesty about all of the battles in our heads from medically diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction to every day compulsive negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling; it’s not a doctor’s office, I'm not a therapist, it's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com. Please go there, join the forum, there’s a gazillion issues you can post on or read about. You can take surveys, you can read how other people have filled out surveys, you can support the show, you can read blogs. Or you can sit with your thumb in your ass and stare at the wall. See how that grabs ya.

Oh, Paul, why are ya swinging, right out of the gate. Why? ‘Cause I’m scared; I’m a scared human being. I’m a scared little boy in a man’s world. That was the name of my first album.

Before we get to the interview I want to read a couple of surveys. You know I love me some Struggle-in-a-Sentence. This is from that survey; this first one is filled out from a young girl who is between 10 and 15. Her name is Peanut, and about her depression she writes, “I feel like I’m a child in the safe end of the pool and I keep swimming to the deep end and going down in the water to see how far I can go without suffocating.” About her anxiety: “They hate me. They hate me and they’re lying. And I hate me and I can’t feel my face and I can’t stop shaking.” I just want to give her a hug. About her OCD: “Touching things repeatedly doing everything in fours or tens so I don’t have to deal with my past again.” Wow, you sound pretty self aware, Peanut, about your issues. That’s a good sign, that’s a really good sign. Hopefully you’ll see somebody that can help you.

This is the same survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Liz Low. She is in her twenties. About her anxiety: “Feeling like a crazy person. I feel like everyone must think I’m making a big deal out of nothing but I can’t stop the thoughts and feelings.” About her codependency: “Constantly belittling my feelings and feeling selfish for having them in the first place. Putting all of my energy into worrying about what other people think and feel and how I can cater to them.” About sexual bias: “I don’t know how or why this started, but I am constantly surprised when I meet a guy that seems sincere and genuine.” And about her anger issues: “Feeling of wanting to scream at the top of my lungs and strangle someone when they completely disregard or misunderstand my attempt to share my feelings and they make the situation all about themselves.” Thank you, Liz.

This is from Nicole, who is in her twenties. About being a sex crime victim: “My abuse makes me feel very fragmented, like a fraud, a kid trying to walk around in their parent’s shoes. I don’t feel big enough, strong enough, or mature enough to fill those shoes but I have to pretend like I am.” Thank you.

This is filled out by Jamie. She’s in her twenties. About her love addiction: “I was sure I’d find the fulfillment I was looking for in other people, but I keep finding that the world inside of my own head is so much better.” I think a lot of us really relate to that one.

This is filled out by a guy who calls himself Hardly Driven. He’s in his forties. About his anxiety: “Repetitive thoughts of people I worked with five+ years ago, they must still be talking about me. I’m sure.” That’s an awesome one.

This is filled out by Samantha. She’s in her twenties. About her depression: “Everyday feels like another re-run of the same gray, sad story where tomorrow is meaningless and the good people and things in my life are just obligations that cause me guilt and weigh me down instead of helping me cope like they’re supposed to.” About being a sex crime victim: “Constant battle to find ways to heal and feel empowered in a world in which it constantly blames me for the heinous acts of my abuser and makes excuses for the acts of violation that I and so many like me have suffered.” About her perfectionism: “A daily struggle in which I drag my feet about starting or doing anything at all for fear of failing which causes me to do nothing until the very last minute when I am overcome with dread and anxiety that I will not finish or will not create anything of value and I will have no one to blame but myself.” Wow, I really relate to that one.

And then I want to read this thing from a listener who calls himself Scott and he just summed this up so well, he writes, “Mental illness is like an unwanted pregnancy. Occasionally you feel it kick inside of you, a feeling that reminds you that something is in you, that something is a part of you that is not you and has a mind of its own and it kicks whenever it fucking wants. There is no morning after pill for mental illness. Instead, you have to take care of it, sometimes satisfying its outrageous demands just to get it to shut the hell up, I mean you’re out in public, for fuck’s sake. Stop making a scene. And if you’re very lucky, you even have a moment when you are alone, when mental illness is, for a moment, sleeping, a rare period where it isn’t pulling on your pant leg and crying, “I want this now.” Hang in there. One day it might move out, only ever seeing you for holidays and funerals.”

<Intro Music>

Paul Gilmartin: I’m here with Natasha who is a listener? Correct?

Natasha L: Yeah, mmhmm.

P: She contacted me and there was just some elements to your story that I don’t think we have delved into that with a guest yet and I thought, yeah, let’s sit down and record something. So let’s start from where you were raised, and can I ask how old you are?

N: I’m 43.

P: Ok. Where were you born and raised? How many siblings? I know you have a sister.

N: Yes. I was born in Oklahoma but we only lived there for nine months and we moved a lot. My Dad, he was an advertising executive and he would just switch jobs a lot. We moved all over until I was eleven and then we moved to Palo Alto.

P: Well, he must have gotten successful, huh?

N: Well he was actually pretty successful the whole time.

P: Oh, OK.

N: And then he left. He worked for L’Oreal and he left it to go into business for himself. So actually, Palo Alto, it wasn’t Palo Alto then. It was still nice, we always lived in nice… but it wasn’t like it is now, like—

P: It wasn’t Silicon Valley yet.

N: It was, but there was no Google yet. So it wasn’t like millionaires everywhere, there were some—(laughs)

P: I suppose Apple was just barely there too-

N: I don’t think it was…I don’t remember it being there anyway.

P: Late seventies is kind of when Apple…

N: Oh, really? Well we moved there in ’81, so I guess it was-

P: So it would have just started then. That was around when the first Macintosh came out.

N: Oh, wow, yeah. I know they called it… or maybe I’m just being stupid about it. I know they called it Silicon Valley, but it wasn’t like it is now.

P: And by the way, congratulations on beating yourself up before the two-minute mark.

N: [laughter]

P: That’s nice. I’ll be giving awards out at the end of the year.

N: Great! I will win those.

P: Yeah, but there’s a good chance I might win it.

N: Oh, yeah, well, you do it more.

P: Yeah, and in the introduction, I generally beat myself up before I get to the interview, so I’ll be keeping that trophy.

N: You have more chances, it’s not fair.

P: I do, yeah, it is not fair. It is not fair.

N: So, oh, yeah, my sister is my half-sister, although I didn’t find that out ‘til I was 11, but she is 16 years older than me and my brother is 4 years older than me.

P: And, where would be a good place to start with your story, what are your earliest memories of childhood?

N: I have very early memories of childhood which is weird, but I guess a good place would be … I taught myself how to read before I was three, like when I was around two. I like to say I peaked at two (something unintelligible, laughing) I like to say that I never went past that, and so, my mom-

P: You were burned out by the time you were three-

N: You say that, but that actually factors in here. My mom was very performance driven, accomplishment driven, and um---

P: For herself and you?

N: Yeah…a lot, yeah…funny you say that… yeah, for us both.

P: You think that’s why she chose your dad?

N: Um…

P: …’cause it sounds like he was that way also…’cause, from what you described, it sounds like he was almost a workaholic.

N: He was a workaholic. How did you know that? You’re very good at this. Just ‘cause he worked… I mean, because he had…successful jobs.

P: But you said he wasn’t around much.

N: Oh. Did I already say that?

P: Yeah. Well, no, in your e-mail to me-

N: Oh! Yes, that’s true, yeah. He traveled a lot. So, anyway, my earliest memory, I remember, well, first I remember thinking she didn’t know that I knew how to read. I was alone a lot, anyway, I remember, like, looking at the symbols and trying to figure them out, and then I remember thinking that she doesn’t know that I know this, so we were on a plane and I said, maybe I’ll say it out loud, and I said “E-X-I-T, EXIT,” and she was like, “Oh!” she was so happy, and I remember really like loving that, and then we sat down to read, and it was just like, she was so impatient and critical of me and I couldn’t figure out how to say the word “they.” Every time I got to it I couldn’t remember how to say it, and she was like, “well, just forget it! If you’re not gonna get it this time, then we’re just gonna stop.”

P: And you were two?

N: Yeah. Yeah. So, that was the kind of like pressure I felt, really my whole life.

P: What was wrong with you that you couldn’t pronounce “they?”

N: [Laughing] that’s a good question. She should have asked me that, then we could’ve…

P: Maybe it was the cabin pressure.

N: Although, yeah, though that wasn’t even on the airplane.

P: That’s astounding that you were able to teach yourself a word like “exit” at two and even more astounding that your mom was so unempathic.

N: Yeah. Well, she was, it was very much like, you could never do good enough. But then sometimes you could, but then it was very quickly, you know, obvious, that it was never gonna be good enough.

P: She sounds like a really fear-driven person.

N: She was, she’s…passed away now, so you know, but, oh my gosh, there was so much fear. Like, I mean, she was like writhing on anxiety all the time, so, yeah

P: So, I imagine, what the neighbors thought was of huge importance to her

N: You know, I…what she hid that very well, it wasn’t obvious to me, she …

P: You can say no if that wasn’t the case, I won’t be offended.

N: No, no, no, the reason why I’m saying … I guess we could bring up, now that she has passed away and I found her diaries. So, from reading those-

P: Which is one of the reasons why I wanted to interview you.

N: Right (laughs). Though, in reading those, I found out that she did, it was, it didn’t matter to her what other people thought, and how everything looked, and how much… she was always stressing about money, which I didn’t know, because we always, I thought, had a lot of money. Um…

P: Were you living above your means?

N: Yes. Which I didn’t know.

P: And whose choice was that? Your mom, or your dad’s?

N: My mom’s. My dad was, according to these diaries, was always very concerned about it and wanted to cut back, and she was sending my sister to like the Swiss Alps to ski and…I mean, and our house, we lived in mansions, pretty, yeah, I mean, at least to me they were very… We started to, by the time we moved to Palo Alto, it got smaller and smaller, but I spent a lot of time alone in huge houses, which made me not care about money and made me think I never, I always envied my friends who lived in apartment buildings, they had like, friends around-

P: Isn’t that funny

N: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it’s kind of to my detriment now because it’s like, well, it’s ok to have money. (both laugh) I could live in a house like that.

P: You know, I like to say, of all the people I’ve known in my life, and interviewed, I’ve never met anybody who was fucked up because they didn’t have enough money as a kid, but I have met many, many people who are fucked up because there was emotional poverty.

N: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

P: People may have issues with money because they didn’t have it, my wife grew up without much money and so money is very important to her but she’s not materialistic, she just wants the independence of having her own, her own money, and so that’s a really important thing to her, but it’s, it’s kind of a, it’s kind of a good thing. She’s very aware of money. Maybe sometimes a little bit too much, gets a little too anxious, you know, wants to really play it safe, like, oh, you know, let’s not, you know, get that fixed this year. Let’s wait ‘til, you know, we have, this-

N: Til we’re on the side of the road-

P: Yeah. But, I’ve never met anybody who was like, “I can’t get over the fact that we were poor when I was a kid.”

N: That’s so interesting. Yeah, that’s-

P: Maybe they’re out there-

N: Yeah, that’s really interesting, yeah. I hate it, I was so isolated.

P: That must have been really lonely. And people telling you how awesome your life is because you got this big house. Did people tell you that?

N: Well, no, because, I mean we were, we lived around people who had money too, so it wasn’t, you know… but I just never liked it. I didn’t know, I mean, I would say that to my mom and she would say, “only people who have money say money doesn’t matter” ‘cause I, I wouldn’t say that. But little did I know, she thought she didn’t have any—

P: Was she raised with a lot of money?

N: Well, she grew up in the depression, but she did have money, their grandfather had a newsstand, she lived with her grandfather. And I guess that was successful. So, I mean, not like super rich, but she had money, and she used to say, “we’re not rich, we’re just upper middle class” or something, I don’t know. She was so pretentious.

P: What feelings come up as you remember her and talk about her?

N: Um…feelings? (both laugh)

Both: What are those? (more laughter)

P: How much do those cost?

N: Yeah, that’s so funny, because I really do have a lot of feelings, but when I talk about her like that, I just feel like, ech…

P: Is it tiring?

N: No, it’s like disgust, I guess. Like, especially about those things, like class, she was so classist, and just everything I’m not, maybe in reaction to her. But, I hope that’s not the only reason I’m not, but, um, yeah, I just don’t admire those qualities in her. She had actually, I mean, I said that like, she was actually, as a woman, like, not as a mom, but as a woman, was very admirable. She started her own businesses, she had antiquarian book stores, at a time when women didn’t do that, she went back to school at 30 when nobody was doing that, I mean, she was a feminist, she accomplished a lot in her life. That was very admirable. But, she was crazy (laughs) It was not fun to be raised by her.

P: I think that you mentioned that, was she diagnosed with borderline personality disorder?

N: Only by me, but, when reading these…well, ok, so should I skip to when we found the diaries?

P: However you want to get to it.

N: Ok. Well, I think, I will just say, so, one thing that she did was pit us all against each other as family members. Growing up, my brother was “crazy.” I put that in quotes because she used to say my father would go crazy-

P: Did you feel like your brother was crazy?

N: No. I didn’t, but I believed her at the same time. It’s like my mother is telling me this, so he’s got a problem, he’s got behavioral issues.

P: And mom’s are right. In your mind when you’re a kid; dads are right.

N: Exactly. Yeah. So I did think, oh, he’s off or something. He definitely had a lot of, um, to be honest, I have also diagnosed him with Asperger’s, and I have asked my friends who have worked with autistic people and I really do think he has Asperger’s at this point. But-

P: That must have been horrifying to your mom, because-

N: Well-

P: For somebody who wants social fluidity in their children-

N: Yeah, but the thing is he was very- he is very smart, so he was accomplished and so she liked that. And she did not have social graces, no social, so – I don’t think that part of it bothered her. It bothered her he was emotional, not emotional, but he would just like act out, I guess. And again, I just wanna get to the diaries, ‘cause I would read about us and like, “oh my God.” Anyway, so she would pit us against each other and my brother was the black sheep for a while until he actually chose to go to boarding school to leave the house when I was like 9, which is why I was alone a lot. And then around 11 I became the black sheep for pretty much the rest of my life.

P: What led to you becoming the black sheep?

N: Well, I sort of, I gave up. She put me in piano, violin, French class, acting class, like, flute. I was doing all of this stuff, all the time, and I finally was like – we moved to Palo Alto and I was like, I don’t want to do any of this anymore. And she also gave up on me at the same time. It was a new place for her and she was like, well fend for yourself.

P: Wow, she sounds so narcissistic, like, “if you can’t see the world my way, I’m done.”

N: Oh yeah. That is for sure, a complete narcissist, yes. No tolerance for any differing of opinion at all. And if you tried to, you were just, I was just cut off. Completely.

P: Where was your dad in all this?

N: He, it’s funny, because I have kind of a different perspective now, but at the time, he was kind of like my savior a lot, he would sort of… When he was around, he was very loving towards me and I’ve come to realize that he married his mother basically. His mother was very similar to mine. But he was very attentive to me when he was there. But he traveled all the time so he wasn’t there a lot and now I’m realizing like how much more he could’ve done to really save me from—

P: Do you have kids?

N: Yes, I do.

P: How many?

N: Two. A boy and a girl.

P: Maybe this is fast forwarding, but, what feelings, having your own kids, is that what triggered you realizing what was absent in your relationship with your dad? Or was that before you had kids?

N: It was, no it was actually after my mom died. I gave him a lot of credit then. Now that I—

P: For putting up with her, or being there for you, or –

N: For being there for me, I think I had to to survive, I had to believe that somebody loved me, you know, and I think he does, I know he loves me, but I’ve just, I’ve read into that a lot more than, I mean, he just yeah, so—

P: Say that last part again, you read what?

N: I read into it a lot, just, yeah, I wanted to believe it meant more, that he cared more than I think he was capable of.

P: That’s such a human thing for kids to do, even the kid that’s getting beaten every day by the parent will tell themselves, “I deserve it. My parent loves me and this is their way of showing me that I am a bad person.”

N: Yeah. Well, but he, I think also I was just so starved for positive attention—

P: How would he show you, um, what were the things that touched you that meant a lot to you that he would do?

N: It was just more of a feeling, well, he would play games with me, he would spend time with me when he was—

P: It sounds like your mom was not a fun, silly person at all.

N: No, not at all—

P: Didn’t know how to—

N: She was mean, I mean she really was a mean, cold person. And it was all about her, so, yeah. He was just a lot, it’s ironic, ‘cause he’s English, so, if you’d meet him, you don’t think, “oh, this is a very important person…” But he’s different with kids, he’s not very good with adults, and he, yeah, I just felt very loved, also at various times in my life when, well, my mother would abandon me, he would kind of swoop in and then say not to do that, or like he would be there. My, my, there’s a--

P: He’d say not to do that to her, or?

N: This actually makes him sound kind of terrible, also, but my big first memory is when I was 3, and um, I don’t know, I think I’d been acting like a 3-year old all day, and I remember being in my room, and I was angry, which was not allowed, towards my mother, and she, I remember her like checking in on me with my sister periodically, and then they like stopped checking in on me, so I went downstairs, and um, she was in the kitchen and her back was to me and she was washing dishes and I said, “I’m sorry. I’m ok now, I’m here now,” and she just ignored me, wouldn’t turn around, wouldn’t do anything, and I was like, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry,” and it just started escalating, and she said “shut up, go away, just go away.” And by then, I was just bawling, saying “please forgive me, please forgive me” over and over again, this makes me sad. And then my dad came in and threw a wine glass down and said, “she’s only 3 years old.” And he left the house for a few days, I guess, I didn’t know that at the time, but… My mom always referred to that day as one of the days that my dad went crazy. So, in my mind, I was always like, “oh, Dad went crazy that day.” And it wasn’t until I started therapy and I told that story, I was like, “oh my God,” he was like, trying to protect me, that was—

P: Kind of a fucked up way of doing it, by leaving—

N: I know, I know—

P: Sounds like his heart was in the right place—

N: His heart was always in the right place, he had a terrible childhood, I mean, his mother abandoned him, he had no father, I mean, we actually had a similar childhood except for my dad’s dad really did abandon him, he just wasn’t there at all.

P: I would imagine your mom had a pretty bad childhood too.

N: You know what’s weird, is, I don’t think she really did.

P: No?

N: No. And…she kept diaries from the time she was 14 years old, so-

P: And did you find those along with—

N: Oh yeah, every—

P: Really?! Did you read all of them?

N: Oh yeah.

P: Well we better get into it then.

N: [big laugh] well, yeah, I mean she does not sound like a sad kid and she did used to say that her mother didn’t love her—

P: That’s pretty fucked up

N: That is. If that’s true, and you know what? That’s her experience. So I can’t say that wasn’t true, but…reading these diaries there was really no indication…it was never written about anyway. I mean, I don’t want to take away, I’m sure she felt that, but, yeah. It certainly wasn’t like if you read my diary, like, “Mom’s not home again,” you know, it wasn’t, uh, yeah. So, um, I forgot where we were.

P: We were talking about the diaries.

N: Oh, yeah.

P: So, when she passed away, six years ago?

N: No, it was a year and a half ago.

P: Oh, a year and a half ago.

N: Actually, just a year and a couple months ago, yeah.

P: What did you feel or think when she, was it sudden?

N: Well, it kind of was, she had a heart attack the year before and she had been recovered and so we thought that she was actually doing better. So, she wasn’t healthy by any means, but it was kind of sudden. I’ve been through lots of therapy and various other things to heal myself so, I had boundaries with her as an adult--

P: That must have driven her crazy.

N: You know what, she was so rejecting that it was fine with her, it was like, “well, this is our relationship now.” So in some ways it was good because she wasn’t needy. It was just like, “well,” you know, and she’s not in my life, it was actually weird how quickly she adjusted to that, but anyway, I was in shock when she died and it was very weird to me how sad I was, I mean, I was very, very sad—

P: Can you be more specific about the sadness? Was part of it that her life was so lonely? Or that you didn’t get the love from her?

N: No, I mean, I felt like I had dealt with all of that, so honestly, it’s still very curious to me, it feels almost like, it’s just like your mom, like, someone that’s known you your whole life and we did have a very symbiotic relationship for a long time before I set those boundaries, and I don’t know, it was, I, I didn’t understand it.

P: You know they say that death of a parent where there was a tumultuous and complicated relationship is often more difficult than somebody where it was kind of clear and there was love and… because, I don’t know, I don’t know why because, but they just say that it is—

N: I wonder if it is because of unresolved stuff—

P: I think so.

N: But I didn’t really have any unresolved stuff, so-

P: And you didn’t feel any guilt like, “I could’ve tried harder”

N: No, I had none of that, it was just kind of like a guttural feeling, like my mom is gone, just this feeling of mom, it was, I can’t explain it, but – finding those diaries, let me tell ya, was a good way to end that grief--

P: It was a good cleanser for that sadness

N: Oh my god, it just was like, boom. Done. I mean, yeah. So I actually went with, so my sister is 16 years older than me. She was the golden child, which is a trait of borderline personality. I mean I read these borderline personality books and I was like, that just described her perfectly. Pitting everyone against each other, my sister was the golden child, so…

P: Their thinking is very black and white; you’re either my savior, you’re on my team, or you’re not.

N: Yeah. Yeah. You’re in or you’re out. That’s why the boundaries, it was just like, oh you’re out. You know. I was out, so…

P: And I should preface this too, this is…with people with untreated borderline personality disorder, because there are many people that live successful, emotional lives with borderline personality disorder because they become aware of what their issues are and they find tools for coping with it. And there are qualities of the person with borderline personality disorder that are wonderful, that are… where they’re charming, and they will go out of their way for you, they are funny, they’re intelligent…

N: She was those things.

P: So, I don’t want to paint them as—

N: No – this was very untreated. Narcissists too, so.

P: And they get a, a, I think they get a bad rap, because it’s so misunderstood and people don’t understand that they feel things so intensely, you know, it’s almost like telling somebody who’s on fire, “quit moving around.”

N: Wow. She definitely felt things. Very, very deeply, yeah. I wish she had gotten help, because, yeah, well, like I said, I mean, she was an amazing woman, like, you know, accomplished, and she was all those things, funny, very smart, I mean, yeah, very, very smart.

P: So. Go head, I cut you off.

N: Oh, so I went with my sister who, we didn’t really have a relationship for, I mean, really, our whole lives because we were both being told things about the other person, which we found out later, like. I would ask her things like, “Did you say this,” and she’d be like, “No.” My mom would actually lie to us, about, in order to keep us separated.

P: Do you remember some of the things she lied about?

N: She would say things like “your sister thinks you wear too much make-up.” For some reason that really stuck in my mind because whenever I’d see her it’s like my face, so I was always kind of self-conscious about—

P: Would you wear less make-up when you knew you were going to see your sister?

N: No. No. But it just still made me, you know. And my sister said she would paint me as such a terrible person especially when I was 15 I went through a suicidal phase, yeah, like a phase

P: Were there attempts?

N: No. And it really was an attempt to get my mom to love me, to be like “ok now, it’s time for you to ‘fess up, that I’m actually ok,” you know?

P: How would the suicidal feelings express themselves?

N: How would they express themselves, well, I was in bed all day, I was, just, I felt like I was worthless. I gave up in school, I was failing my classes.

P: That must have driven your mom crazy.

N: Ohhh, oh. I mean that was really the biggest thing was finding THAT diary. Because it was like, I really truly remember thinking she’s got to admit that she loves me and then she’ll warm up and she’ll come to me and say how can I help you, you know, let’s, I don’t want you to, I love you, you know—

P: So by turning off your will to do things, you’ve felt like that she’s got to recognize that this is a cry for help?

N: That doesn’t make sense? Yeah, it was like, I was like—

P: I’m just trying to get into your head, in terms of how you were trying to express yourself.

N: No, no, yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, it was like, yeah if I give up everything because clearly performance and succeeding is what is important, then you’ll see that I need help and you’ll- and it was also a kind of a “fuck you”—

P: I was gonna say, because you couldn’t do anything more to spite her.

N: Yeah, it was both, it was like, “Oh, you want me to be the best well, fuck you, here I am the worst, and do you still love me, now? No.”

P: Who am I when you take all these things away. See that person.

N: Yes, exactly, exactly. Yes, she did not like that, so. And so in those diaries, she would write she thinks she’s worthless and she’s right, she doesn’t do anything and that’s what makes a person worthwhile—

P: --is what they do—

N: Right. And I hope she does die, like she, like it was very, very—

P: What did you think or feel when you read that?

N: Well—

P: And this was a year ago that you read this, right?

N: This was a year ago. That one was, I mean I’m telling you it was like relief and happiness because she never admitted it. It really was like, “oh my God, I didn’t make all that up.” Like it wasn’t just some like “poor me, my mother doesn’t love me, poor me,” no, she really didn’t. She really did want me to die, like rather than be alive as a person who is “worthless.” It really, I’m telling you, I was so happy. Because my sister was with me when we started reading these and she had no idea because my mom was such an actor. She would put on a complete different face for her so my sister had no idea, so when we started reading these it was like, “Yes!” I’m telling you, I’m so happy.

P: Well, how did your sister react?

N: She was just in shock with her mouth, you know, her jaw dropped and she was like, “she was crazy!”

P: And she didn’t really know it before then?

N: She had no idea. No idea.

P: Wow!

N: Yeah. I feel a little bad for her because it was harder for her to process. For me it was like, I’m so happy, and I have my sister on my side, like ‘cause my whole life she was pit against me.

P: What did that feel like, when you—

N: It was really nice [laughs]. It was, I mean my sister’s not a very effusive person, no one in my family except for me apparently (unintelligible) but they demonstrate, but, so it wasn’t like a love fest or anything, but it definitely was, “oh, somebody’s on my side, and somebody sees this” and, I mean, so much of it, like, my mom used to tell my sister I was on drugs, she used to tell on me, I mean, it was so crazy, one time I went out to the bank and when I came back, my mom said, “did you get your fix?”

P: [bursts out laughing]

N: Yeah. And I didn’t even know what that was at the time. I think I was like 14 or 15, and I was like, “your fix?, like what is that?” And it was like said with such disgust. And like, I was just the worst person in the world. And so that’s what she was telling everybody. And I was like, none of this is true, and she just, oh, it was just really great.

Commercial Break – Pill Pack pillpack.com/happyhour

N: …all the time to clear out all her possessions. I mean we did it in like three days, just cleared everything out. Although it’s interesting, he says he has no real memory of that happening. He was in such shock, they were together for 55 years, so it was a big; it’s a big loss for him. But, he said, you are going to find diaries when you’re doing this and I don’t want to see them. She could be very vitriolic and I don’t want to see any of that. So, we were like oh, ok

P: Did that make you want to read the diaries?

N: No, at the time, I was like, “oh, well we should be respectful of her.” But then, we found, well, first we found this list, and the last ten years was the only time she didn’t keep a diary, so we found this list of her hypochondria, like, she was clearly a hypochondriac, and like, daily, if not hourly lists of everything that was wrong with her. Like, “there’s a brown spot on my hand. Maybe I got that from a pen, but I don’t know, we’ll check in tomorrow about it and then the next day it was like “brown spot gone.” It was just like, real, like – that’s when we looked at each other and were like, oh my god, she’s crazy, she’s crazy.

P: Wow

N: Like, I knew she was mean but it was the real cruelty about me and my brother that surprised me but also really validated for me all the feelings that I had my whole life that she didn’t admit it. I mean like, she said about my brother, “he has a spot on his head and I hope it’s a tumor and its cancer and he dies”, when he was two.

P: Why?

N: I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, she didn’t want us, I guess, I mean, I know at one point she was like, she said in there, “I wish I never had these last two children” meaning, not my sister, the golden child, but me and my brother, “they’re you know, beautiful and intelligent and all that, but my life definitely would have been infinitely better without them.” So I think she just, you know, we were--

P: There was resentment that it was holding her back.

N: Oh yes, very much so.

P: I can’t imagine how many women must feel that.

N: Feel resentment?

P: You know, if, I, I, think the average woman that feels that resentment or that sense of loss about what they could have accomplished if they hadn’t have had to quit their job and be at home, not that it takes away from the love they have for their husband and their kids, but it’s not mutually exclusive from that sadness that I had this other dream that is just not, there’s just not enough time in the day—

N: Right, but, I will say speaking as someone who has felt that way and—

P: About your own life—

N: Yeah, I mean, well, meaning like I’ve had those thoughts, like, oh, what would’ve happened, you know, if I didn’t have kids, what would my career look like right now. You can have those thoughts and people have those thoughts, but there was no sense of it being cruel or wrong or you know, oh I fee the least bit guilty about those thoughts, I mean, when I’ve had those thoughts, I’m like oh, but quickly say, but I love my kids, I would never want to not have my kids and, you know, not that it’s not ok to have, that I should have to do that, but at the same time it was just like a revel- it was just like, “fuck these kids, I hate these, I want them to die of cancer,” that’s like another level, you know.

P: That’s pretty intense.

N: Yeah, I don’t know what else was going on, I don’t think that’s just like borderline narcissism. I don’t know

P: Well at least she had some hope, hope that your brother would die, right?

N: [laughs] Well, so…

P: She was a hopeful person!

N: Well, it really was crazy because then the next day she’d be like, “the children are wonderful,” I mean it was every other, maybe she was bipolar, it was like every other day, it was like, one extreme to the next. And the saddest thing was that my brother, she saw a psychiatrist and she said the psychiatrist, “oh well, he told me to tell Carl that I love him and I’m never going to leave him. And everything seems better now.”

P: Wow

N: It’s like, and up until that point, it was just months, if not like a whole year of her saying how she can’t stand this kid, she wants him gone, she, I mean, terrible thoughts, about, how could she have this kid, you know—

P: Did she ever experience periods of low energy and just depression?

N: No, I never saw that.

P: I don’t, I shouldn’t even say this cause I’m just a jackass that tells dick jokes, but that doesn’t sound like bipolar to me, that does sound like something like borderline personality disorder, yeah

N: Oh, yeah, borderline personality disorder, ok.

P: I mean, I’ve read the book Understanding the Borderline Mother—

N: Oh, yeah, I did too

P: Yeah, and that was revelatory

N: Was your mom borderline? Or is?

P: I don’t know, she certainly had the qualities of a borderline person, she fit the mold of the martyr. And she used to call us martyrs all the time, all the time

N: Oh my god, wow. Yeah

P: But she was often “poor me” and “the world is shitting on me and all of you treat me like shit” and “I’m just gonna leave, fuck you all.” And she would tell me at 8 years old that she wanted out of her marriage and we were all bastards and I would have to go console her, yeah.

N: Oh that’s what, well, yeah I had that same experience too, well, which, yeah, leads to, well bad that we’re not talking more about you, but I guess this--

P: No, this is about you, I was just feeling bad that I keep injecting my self into it.

N: Oh, that’s funny.

P: Let’s celebrate that we’re both feeling bad, huh? Let’s meet in the middle about that. Self-hatred, high-five, self-hatred – high five.

N: We did it. Two borderline kids, uh child of borderline. Well, my dad, when I was 9, my dad actually had an affair. And we used to live in Westchester and I went to school in the city in New York and there was this 45 minute drive in every day and she found out one day, got in the car, started cry- I’d never seen her cry, she was a tough person, but finally like I had a purpose, like she, I was like, I was her little therapist for the whole year.

P: It sounds like her shell cracked finally, like, oh, there’s a human being inside there that experiences something other than rage and control.

N: Yes, exactly, yeah, so, and I, and she really leaned on me apparently I said very helpful things, I don’t remember that, but, and she did, she used to say things to me like, “if we get divorced, you’ll never see your father again, he, that’s what he does, he cuts off.” Which is so ironic because that’s what she does, or did, yeah. And yet, I really don’t think he would have done that, and you know what, and I, that’s how I know I believed my father loved me because that didn’t actually scare me, I was like, what? He’s not gonna do that. Um, so anyway, I relate to that.

P: What do you remember thinking or feeling about your mom when she had that, that breakdown and how you felt about yourself?

N: Well, I felt very worthwhile about myself and I actually wanted them to get divorced because I thought we could live in the city and I could have a fun life. I wouldn’t be alone so much, I’d go with my dad and his girlfriend, I guess he—

P: Oh, you would have wanted to live with your dad

N: Well, I thought we could split up like I’d be like a normal kid who has divorced parents and it felt like somehow it wouldn’t be as lonely.

P: Because he’d have to spend more time with you because of joint custody.

N: Mmmhmmm, and also we’d be in the city, I just imagined us in the city

P: You wouldn’t be stuck in the--

N: --in the suburbs by myself, in the, she used to leave me alone a lot in that house and he, I guess traveled to not blame him I guess still, but--

P: What was your relationship like with Cadbury your butler?

N: [laughs] I’m making us sound much more rich than we were. There was no butler. But it was, that’s all I remember is wanting, really wanting them to get divorced and then instead, my dad, I do remember her saying also like he, he would tell, she told me things that he told her that she did, does that make sense? And that were really mean and I remember one time, I said, “why did you do that?” and she just said “I don’t know.” And it actually brought them together, this affair. And they started talking more and then we moved, that’s pretty much why we moved although he didn’t want to stay in New York where the, well, I was told at the time that he didn’t get a promotion that he wanted, so he went into business for himself but it was also because this woman was there. So, yeah. And that was a terrible move for me. I moved from basically the city even though I was in the suburbs I was going to school in the city, I was left to my own devices in the city and it was really fun and then I was moved to the, um, to Palo Alto and at first we lived in [unintelligible] hills which was like the country, country, which now I would love, but at the time I was like, oh, it was so awful and total culture shock. The kids were all different, it was, I went from being very popular at school to being a complete nerd, yeah, it was a nightmare. And no help at home.

P: So, what’s the next phase of your story?

N: Ummm,

P: And what were you struggling with, other than the loneliness and the periods of feeling suicidal or expressing, you know, kind of retreating from…

N: Well, as a kid, or just?

P: Either one. Kid, adolescent, adult. Gimme some snapshots from, because, clearly how can this not affect somebody—

N: Yeah. Well, I mean I struggled a lot with feelings of worthlessness obviously, and I know that I don’t have clinical depression because I was able to snap out of it, at some point I realized she wasn’t going to admit that she loved me and of all weird things I read this book called Live in the World and Still Be Happy and I was like, oh, it’s a choice, ok. And then I just decided to not let her bother me.

P: That is so incredibly awesome and mature for a teenager to get to that place, I mean there’s adults that are in their 40s and 50s and keep going to the well, myself included, that I just finally stopped going to the well and I can feel myself growing, because I stopped going to the dry well and you were intuitive enough to—

N: Well I don’t know that I stopped going to the well then entirely, I mean—

P: At least it sounds like you recognized that there wasn’t a lot of water there.

N: At that point, yeah, when I was at that low, I was like, well this isn’t any fun. I think that was more like I’m in a, it was just so obvious, once I, you know what it was, once I realized I wasn’t going to kill myself, I was, that’s what it was, if I’m not gonna kill myself, I might as well be happy because, you know, why sit around depressed? That’s- so obviously it wasn’t clinical, but—

P: Thank you for making that distinction because a lot of people beat themselves up because they think if they can just change their attitude their clinical depression will go away, and that’s crazy making.

N: Yeah, that is crazy making.

P: And then they rule out meds

N: Ugh, yeah, no, I was very yeah. Um, but, I did still, I went through a period where that worked and when I was around 21 I started to get depressed again because I didn’t realize my mother was the problem, I mean, you know what I mean, I didn’t realize my problems were very much birthed from her feelings about me.

P: Yeah. We know what you mean.

N: Ok. [laughs] Well so anyways—

P: Why you gotta be so mean to your Mom? Mom was mean to me. “End of interview.”

N: [still laughing] Goodbye. Anyway, I started therapy at 21 and then it became this process of starting and stopping from going to her. That’s really when it, my therapist was like, well it sounds like she only loves you conditionally. And I told her that and she’s like, “what are you talking about?” and I gave her an example and she’s like, “Well, I guess I do.” And I hung up the phone and that actually destroyed me at the time, I was so sad, I mean, that was one of my realizations. But it was a process, I don’t mean to say that I stopped going to the well at 16 ‘cause that was not the case. She continued to disappoint me, don’t worry.

P: Her own little New York City marathon.

N: Yeah. And one thing I could think of is, this is my second marriage, I had been married before briefly, and my mom loved this guy because he was a very nice guy, I just was not in love with him by the end and but he was very wealthy, great on paper, so my mom loved him. And when I told her I was leaving him she stopped talking to me for about six months, maybe longer.

P: Wow.

N: Yeah, and I was like, how, this is my divorce, this is not your divorce, and she was like, “well it affects me.”

P: Oh my God.

N: Yes, she just cut off from me, and that’s another way my dad came in, my dad started calling me once a week, because that’s, he never used to call me ever, and you know, so it’s things like that, as far as my dad’s concerned, and then when she died I found all these pictures of my ex husband with his new wife, like, cause there was like—

P: What?

N: Yeah.

P: What?

N: Yes, it was, that was so crazy for me to see, that was one, yeah, she was a woman of many surprises because he got married again, we’re still friends, and his engagement was in the New York Times, so she’d cut that out and made copies of it. And then there was also a picture of me and him that she kept framed, my dad refuses to admit that he allowed this to happen, but my sister said that she had seen it there and like it was tucked in a drawer.

P: Well, one of the other qualities of borderline personality disorder, I’m told, is that there’s tremendous amounts of rumination about things that they can’t let go.

N: Oh, oh that’s interesting.

P: They replay things over and over in their minds and it kind of winds them up, they have trouble letting things go, so that makes, that makes sense.

N: Yeah, it was pretty crazy. There was so many crazy elements—

P: So, how, how has this affected you other than the feeling of worthlessness, what has been your, the hurdles for you to overcome, and how have you begun to overcome them?

N: Well, I think the biggest hurdle is feeling safe in the world and feeling like I’m not being torn apart and picked apart and—

P: Criticism really stings.

N: Not even, yes, I don’t like criticism—

P: I mean, who does, but, I think it affects some people more deeply than others.

N: Yeah, it’s more like even day to day interactions, I, it’s weird, it’s with, I actually just started doing this thing called the Grinberg Technique where they work with your body, like to get you centered –

P: One of my guests, Kulap Vilaysack does it.

N: Ok, yeah, its very helpful for me because I kind of, I left my body a lot, I don’t know if that makes any sense—

P: It makes total sense

N: I mean I really was not in touch with my body at all, it was, at all, I had no concern for it, and so it’s been a process of like feeling safe enough to be grounded and my first session I remember the Grinberg lady, she would be just like, I guess they just look at your feet, it’s kind of odd and then they can tell what’s going on and she just looked at my feet and she said, “yeah, it’s about safety for you.” And it’s just even like going to CVS or something, it’s not like close friends, it’s with random people, I just feel like, once I feel safe, it’s like, ok, I’m safe but I’m just kind of always like—

P: Is it, you don’t know what’s gonna happen, you’re afraid they’re gonna attack you verbally, physically?

N: It’s not physically, it’s, I mean it’s not even that I just feel this sense that I’m gonna be judged, it does, it’s not logical, because, I mean like the CVS lady’s really gonna, you know, do anything, but it’s just a feeling of being like, you know, I have to brace myself for whatever is gonna happen.

P: You know, Alan Rappaport wrote this fucking amazing article called CoNarcissism and one of the things that he said in treating having many clients whose parents were real narcissists is the children of narcissists grow up thinking that the world views them the way the narcissistic parent did.

N: Yeah. But doesn’t everybody do that? I mean, doesn’t everybody look at –

P: Think the world sees them the way their parents do?

N: Yeah.

P: I don’t know.

N: Really? Yeah, well I imagine, I mean it’s definitely harder when your parent picked you apart and, you know, yeah. So that’s been a real, my, my biggest hurdle I think is yeah

P: And as you got back into your body, what did you, how did that help you, what did you think or feel?

N: It helps me because what happens is if I just feel it, then you can let it go, but if you’re holding against it, it amplifies it. So that’s really what I’ve been working on is allowing myself to feel these feelings and then allowing myself to let it go.

P: How would you leave your body, would it be through fantasy?

N: I just, I kind of feel, and I do have this tendency still, I don’t know if I’ll be able to explain this, but it’s kind of like I’m operating from the neck up, like I just don’t, it’s like, it’s just like its kind of a tension

P: So you intellectualize things and kind of go numb

N: Yes. Yes. Yes, I did not have any sense of feelings for a long time.

P: Couldn’t identify what you were feeling.

N: Yes, I was just like everything is either weird or I don’t know. But even when I got in touch with my feelings, yeah, I don’t know, it’s just this feeling of bracing myself against the worst.

P: I know that feeling and it’s like sometimes I feel like outside of my Lazy Boy, even to go to my office sometimes, just feels like I’m jumping into cold water.

N: Yeah, that’s nice

P: Like I don’t wanna leave, it’s like I create cocoons that I don’t want to leave, bed or my recliner, or something else.

N: Yeah. Since having kids, everything’s kind of gotten better too, it’s sort of like I kind of can’t be in my own space so, I mean, it’s not about me, which has helped that but I definitely feel safest at home, it just feels like nice to be at home.

P: What are the ways that you feel you lack as a mom that set off alarm bells for you because I know every parent, almost every parent at least that’s healthy, goes “oh my god, I’m failing in this.” The good ones, I think, have that kind of self reflection. What are the moments that make you go, “oh my God!”

N: Well, what’s most challenging for me is when I get angry with, especially my daughter who is very tough and has no sense of fear of authority. I mean, and its interesting the nature vs nurture thing because she just like came out like that, I mean, yeah, so I--

P: Have you tried putting her head in a vise?

N: Doesn’t work. I’ve actually said to my husband, like when she was little, like how are we going to break her? Because she like there is like, I mean, knows, that, she’s like fuck you, I mean she doesn’t say that but she’ll just look at us like, what are you gonna do about it. And we do discipline her, like, ok—

P: She has consequences

N: She has consequences. Doesn’t fucking care.

P: Wow, that’s gotta be so difficult.

N: Oh my god. It’s very difficult. She’s also amazing, you know, obviously I think she’s amazing, she’s very smart, blah, blah, but, oh my god. Blah blah blah I just said about my daughter. Thank you. How do I fail as a mother? There you go. Oh my god, but it does scare me, cause I don’t want to be anything like my mother who was so cold and I don’t, probably another problem I have is I don’t really experience anger except when my daughter when she comes up against, I mean, she pushes us, you know. So it’s very hard for me to be like, ok. I mean I keep my calm, if you ask anyone around me I think they would say that, but it’s just like when I have thoughts, like that’s what scares me, when I have thoughts because the other day, my son and my daughter were in the car and they were fighting, and they don’t fight very often, so when they do, it just makes me crazy. “Nah, nah, nah” they’re just fighting, fighting, fighting, and I was driving, and then I was like, I understand how that lady just drove her kids into the water. How does this stop, where do I—

P: Sweet, sweet relief

N: Exactly. Where do I let these kids off? But—

P: Oh, the quiet of the bottom of the lake.

N: Exactly.

P: Solitude. Pure, pure solitude.

N: I mean, it is sad though, that that lady, I mean, she probably didn’t have a wonderfully supportive husband like I do, I mean, if I didn’t have that at those times, it’s, it’s hard. So that’s where I fail. Wanting to drive my kids into an ocean. But actually, reading those diaries made me feel better because it’s like, yeah, they’re, at least I have, you know, remorse, when I do think those, or at least, an acknowledgment, it’s not, you know, a real feeling that I really do want to drive these kids into the water.

P: And you know, getting back to your mom, your mom’s diary, I think what a great example of how deeply we want to be validated as kids no matter where it comes from and you know, for you it took you being 42 years old and reading it to feel that final validation of my feelings are not wrong.

N: Yes, yes, and I feel sad for people who don’t get that, I mean, I was so lucky in a way, it was a huge gift, that she left me, because, I mean, people would say to me like, uck, when I would read them excerpts, they’re like “oh my god, you must feel terrible,” and I’m like, “no, no, no, you don’t get it.”

P: I experienced that already, that felt terrible.

N: Exactly, exactly. But to lie to me and say, you know, ugh, but she didn’t really feel those things, even though she showed it still as a kid you don’t really want to believe your, you know, mother doesn’t love you. And I think also one of my challenges is relationships with women; friendships, I get, if anything gets off, like if there is an argument or something, I get very triggered and feel like they’re not, I’m never gonna speak to them, I get like a little kid again, like, you know, “oh I have to get them to like me” and, you know, I don’t act on it anymore, but that feeling still comes up and it’s very hard not to be judgmental of it. I was going to say something else…but I don’t’ remember. Anyway. Yeah.

P: Is there anything else you’d like to touch on before we do some fears and loves?

N: Well, I do want to say one more thing I don’t know if this is just another indication of how crazy it was. I never, part of why I feel this fear in the world is, I never knew where anything stood and my mother, we were raised Christian, and I found out like later that we were actually Jewish and my mother was an Orthodox Jew actually and so---

P: Was raised Orthodox and—

N: Was raised Orthodox and there was this whole other side of my culture when I finally like get around there for the first, when I again, this is me being stupid, I didn’t realize that me being Jewish is like, you know, part of your ethnicity almost, and when I was 21 I met a bunch of people that went to [unintelligible] and I was around all these other Jews and I’m Jewish! Like, it like clicked in me, so it was just another way she sort of took me away from my roots—

P: Was your father Jewish as well?

N: Yeah, he’s Jewish, but he’s an atheist.

P: And did you know he was Jewish growing up?

N: I mean, that’s the thing, like, I didn’t really know either of them were, my aunt told me at one point, she’s like, “You know you’re Jewish,” like, I mean they were like New York Jews, like real, like almost character, um, uh, what is that word?

P: Caricature?

N: Thank you. Of Jews, but, but, as a kid you, I thought it was like just another religion, you know, ok well I’m going... She picked me up from church school, she was very upset that I, yeah, I was baptized, I mean the whole thing, and then I was like, no I’m not and Mom’s not. She’s like, “Your mother’s Jewish, we’re all Jewish,” well it’s like, no, she wants, this is what she, I didn’t realize that was, you know, part, kind of part of who you are—

P: So your aunt told you.

N: My aunt told me, but it didn’t click that it was, you know, that’s what I’m saying, it didn’t click that it was an ethnicity almost, like that you know it was more than just like, you know

P: Yeah, a religion.

N: Yeah, than a religion.

P: And did you confront your mom? Or dad about it?

N: Well, at the time I was only I think I actually was only 9 or 10, it didn’t, I was like, it didn’t mean anything to me.

P: I see. So you kind of brushed it out of your mind until…?

N: Mmmhmm, until I met these other Jews and felt happy. But then again, the other crazy thing is my mom then sort of abandoned everything and was an atheist along with my dad for a while and when she died my sister said “well I’m just happy she’s with, I know she’s with Jesus now,” because my sister’s a born again Christian. And I was like, huh? She started going to church for the last year and a half of her life and I was like for some reason, that was like the first biggest blow to me it felt like another betrayal for some reason, it was just like, I didn’t know she was hiding this secret it was the first of many secrets I would later find out, but anyway. That was the last thing.

P: Well let’s go to, let’s go to some fears and loves.

N: Let me tell you something, yeah, I think that the biggest fear in these fears and love offs is sharing these fears.

P: Yeah?

N: It’s like, yeah, I don’t know why it makes me feel more exposed than just my story.

P: I’m going to be reading the fears of a guy from the forum, great guy, named, who calls himself Sound Waves Surfer and his first fear is becoming a disheveled schizophrenic derelict who is actively engaged with an imaginary audience on the sidewalk and in public restrooms.

N: That’s a good one. Those are better than mine. I can tell already. I’m afraid everyone I know will turn against me.

P: Becoming a road side beggar with nothing more than a scapegoat excuse and a cardboard sign reading “Anything helps. God bless.”

N: These are very detailed. I’m afraid of my kids getting very sick and dying.

P: Walking under trees in the dead of night.

N: People who, I’m afraid of people who I think like or love me secretly are mad at me and will abandon me.

P: Superstitions like black cats and an even more ridiculous one that I made up, which is not ripping the toilet paper perfectly along the perforated dots is a bad omen. That’s a great one.

N: We have two black cats, they’re great. I’m afraid what I think is an amazing relationship with my husband I’ll find out has all been a lie and I’ve been wrong to trust him.

P: Extended lengths of eye contact with others when I’m feeling depressed and / or anxious. Oh my God, do I relate to that one.

N: Oh, that’s sad. I’m afraid of showing who I really am to people I don’t know very well.

P: Being seen as less than.

N: I’ll never find a community of people who I really feel at home with.

P: Being a lonely old man sitting alone on a park bench who can’t help, who can’t stop fantasizing and obsessing over all the women and girls who pass by while I wait endlessly for my one true love to sit down beside me digressing sadder and more obsessive every day until I eventually die.

N: Oh my god.

P: Not specific enough. Not specific enough

N: No. He’s really making me look bad. I will, I’m afraid I will age horribly and my husband will have to live with a really unattractive person.

P: I fear the self-fulfilling prophecies of my own worst enemy.

N: I’m afraid of dying before my kids are in their mid twenties.

P: And that was his last one. Do you have any other ones you want to uh…

N: I’m afraid that all of my cats will escape.

P: I had a nightmare last night, it’s so bizarre, that I looked up and somehow I could see through our roof, but there was a gorilla climbing a tree above our house and I was like, “wow, if that falls it’s gonna come right through the roof,” and it did and then I was trying to get it out of the house and all the dogs got loose.

N: Wow.

P: Yeah. Bizarre. Bizarre.

N: I feel like that really means something, I wish I could analyze it for you.

P: Let’s go to loves.

N: Ok.

P: I’m going to be reading his loves as well. And he says, I love when my son says “you’re awesome” to me.

N: I love being able to tell my husband anything and knowing he doesn’t judge me.

P: I love runs in the foothills while I listen to this podcast then stopping at the top to rest while overlooking the city, ah, that’s sweet.

N: I love the feeling that afternoon of knowing I don’t have anything to do that night except hang out with my husband.

P: I love when I know I’m dreaming. Oh I love that too.

N: I love getting into bed knowing I can sleep.

P: Oh, that’s good, I actually set my alarm two hours before I have to get up so I can enjoy snoozing. You know, hitting the snooze button, going, “oh, I don’t have to get up yet.”

N: That might drive me crazy, though.

P: I love picking up my phone after being away from it all day and seeing a list of unanswered texts. That causes me panic actually.

N: Yeah, me too. I love it when my son explains something to me at full volume, excitedly with only the enthusiasm a kid can.

P: That’s a beautiful one. I love music and all forms of creative expression and performing arts.

N: I love hearing “I love you mama” for no reason at all.

P: That’s gotta feel great.

N: That’s the best.

P: I love being able to help someone through whatever it is they’re going through simply by listening. I love that.

N: I love watching my kids sleep.

P: I love living an anonymous life and being able to read like an open book.

N: I love waking up and smelling pancakes cooking.

P: I like that one. I love when the left turn light stays green longer than usual and I make it through.

N: I love knowing when I’m about to share a book or movie or TV show with my kids that I know they’re gonna love.

P: I love those activities that give a sense of purpose and calling; soul endeavors.

N: I feel like most of mine are sleep centered. I love getting into bed and having all the cats curled up with me.

P: I love that. I love when my dogs come up on the bed. And we just gave our little guy, we finally got him groomed and he’s part Chihuahua and when they’re hair is short I cannot, all my wife and I do, literally every second is just talk about how we just want to eat his face.

N: That’s so cute. How many dogs do you have?

P: Just two. Just two, but oh, they’re so fucking funny. They’re just, they’re personalities are so distinct.

N: What’s the other one?

P: They’re both rescue mutts, mixes, but she looks like a fox, she’s part Sheltie, part long-haired dachshund.

N: We have a pit mix too and seven cats.

P: Seven?

N: Maybe I shouldn’t admit that. Yeah. We do cat rescue, so. We end up with cats.

P: Uh, his last love is I love how my love list is more fluid than my fears list.

N: Mmm, that’s what I said before we started this. Um, I love being in [unintelligible] canyon and the feeling of serenity I feel there.

P: Any other ones?

N: I think that’s it. Oh, I love watching my dog play with his friends.

P: Natasha, thank you so much for coming by and sharing your life with us.

N: Oh, thank you.

P: Appreciate it.

N: Thank you.

Uh- Keep that in mind when you’re uh, when you’re writin’ your diary. Thank you for that, Natasha. Um, before I take it out with some surveys, I want to remind you guys there’s a couple of different ways to support the show, if you go to the website mentalpod.com. Mental pod is also the twitter name you can follow me at. You can support the show a couple of different ways you can support it financially by going to the website and making a one-time PayPal donation, or my favorite, doing a recurring monthly donation for as little as $5 a month and that means the world to me. It helps provide a financial platform to keep the podcast running and I really, really appreciate it. You can also support us by shopping at Amazon through our search portal on our home page right-hand side about half-way down not to be confused with the search box for the website itself and I’m told that Firefox, if you’re using that browser, won’t show up. You can support us also by going to iTunes, writing something nice and giving us a good rating or spreading the word through social media.

Alright, let’s get to it.

This is from Shame and Secrets Survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Tracy 500. She is straight, she’s in her 50s, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment, never been sexually abused. I don’t know why she puts this in the sexual abuse category, but she writes, “I’m ashamed that I snoop online in my boyfriend’s ex-wife’s business. I look for anything I can find on her and I hate that I care enough to do it. I hate her and I don’t understand why I persist in looking on her social media pages and other places.”

Ever been physically or emotionally abused: “Been emotionally abused. My ex-husband emotionally abused me through the silent treatment, contemptuous looks, and always telling me how I could be doing things better. He claimed he was trying to be helpful. He also would look away when I was telling him about things, or say ‘I’m sorry, what?’ in the middle of a story, so I felt like I was boring him. When I realized that it was emotional abuse, I confronted him and we got into therapy. He cut back considerably but he couldn’t quit completely so I left him. I’m so much happier now. The biggest remnant is because I fear my listener will be bored, I shorten any story I tell so much that sometimes my listener is confused.”

Any positive experiences with your abusers: “My ex-husband was very generous with money and very good socially. It doesn’t really complicate my feelings towards him, I just think he’s an abusive prick with some good qualities.”

Deepest, Darkest Thoughts: “I think about ways I could annihilate my boyfriend’s ex-wife. Not like killing her or anything, but using things that I know about her to emotionally destroy her.”

Darkest Secrets: “I think of myself as a health food nut, but when I gorge on potato chips and chocolate chips, I feel weak because I can’t control my eating sometimes. I recognize that it’s emotionally driven, but I can’t stop.”

Sexual Fantasies Most Powerful to You: “Being watched while my boyfriend and I are having sex. I would be so embarrassed if anyone found out I shared that.” Well by the way, that’s one of the most common fantasies that people have. Well, at least that was shared by me by the people I was fucking in front of.

What if anything would you like to say to someone that you haven’t been able to: “I would like to tell my boyfriend’s ex-wife that she’s a disgusting, despicable excuse for a human being. Even though I’ve never said or done anything to her, I’ve done plenty of things behind the scenes so that the truth about her would come out. I would like her to know that because she involved me by saying nasty things about me, made veiled threats to my children and tried to publicly humiliate me via social media, I retaliated without ever saying a word to her. I just kept exposing the truth until everyone could see how crazy she is. I want to tell her that she shouldn’t fuck with me because I’m a hundred times smarter and a hundred times more educated than she is. The dumbest thing she ever did was to involve me in all her crap. She had no idea what she unleashed.”

What if anything do you wish for: “I wish that she would die and I’m completely ashamed for saying that. Having her go into the Witness Protection Program would be enough for me. I would like her to be out of my life completely.

Have you shared these things with others: “I’ve shared that I would like her to go into the Witness Protection Program but not that I’d like to see her die.”

How do you feel after writing these things down: “More ashamed. Because it makes it seem more real. I can’t believe that I have such awful thoughts. I thought I was more compassionate than that.”

Is there anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences?

“If someone shared my thoughts I would tell them that it’s perfectly normal to want your tormenter dead but I can’t seem to listen to my own words.”

Thank you for sharing that and you know, fuck, when somebody humiliates me or disrespects me sometimes, I can either completely let it go or I just ruminate about it, so, you’re not alone. You’re not alone in that. I would imagine especially when it comes to your kids, somebody fucking with your kids.

Alright, this is from the Shame and Secrets Survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Coconuts. She is pansexual, in her twenties, raised in a totally chaotic environment. Was the victim of sexual abuse and reported it. “I’ve been sexually abused many times, in many ways by many different people in my life but had never heard of covert incest prior to listening to the podcast. Hearing so many stories in the validation of this type of behavior as real abuse made me realize that my father was covertly incestuous. He had what kids in high school would call a staring problem. From the moment I began to develop, which was sooner than my older sister, I felt a huge change in the way he looked at me. It went from seeing me to gazing, leering; drinking me in as you’ve said so many times. When I would open my bedroom door and he would be sitting on the couch watching TV, he would redirect his attention to me and stare as I crossed the room. If I was doing dishes and he was sitting at the kitchen table I could feel his eyes directly on my ass. He would do the same thing to my sister and it would get worse if he had been drinking. If my sister and I would tell him to stop staring, he would fly into a rage, not denying that he was, but claiming a right to do so. He would get furious at us and start a screaming match about how he was entitled to look at us and talk to us the way he pleased because he was our father.” Oh, that makes me sick to my stomach.

Any positive experiences with the abuser and does that complicate your feelings about them. “Yes and yes. Trying to resolve those positive aspects of people who abused me is just part of the ongoing process of forgiveness, I think.” I would heartily agree with that.

Darkest thoughts: “I am less ashamed of the things I think about these days thanks to a really good therapist and some really great friends. I can’t help the things that flow through my head. I don’t like all the things that flow through it, but hating myself for them helps exactly nothing.” I can give you a big high five on that one.

Darkest secrets: “Not right now.”

Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: “Young girls being dominated by an older man in a position of power, being deceived, tricked, trapped, punished. Also older women with younger women in loving, tender deflowering experiences. Sharing that makes me feel like Freudian thinkers would have a field day with me.”

What, if anything, would you like to say to someone that you haven’t been able to: “My father, ‘I love you, but you can seriously go fuck yourself.’”

What, if anything, do you wish for: “I wish that I would stop having dreams about my father. I’ve often had recurring dreams about certain individuals in the past. People who I was not in touch with at the time or had fallen out with. Those dreams stopped as soon as I spoke to them again. I know communicating with my father is not a safe option for me but I hate going to sleep because he appears in my dreams so often. I wish I could make this process go faster and not let him have this power over me anymore. That’s the first time I’ve even admitted this stuff to myself.” And she writes that she feels a little bit lighter after that.

Anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences: “Just a quote I keep on my wall: ‘Being upset is a side-effect of giving a fuck.’” That’s great. Thank you for that.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself WinnieDear and she writes, uh, she’s in her thirties, “I’m coming up on my first year of sobriety on April 16.” Congratulations in advance. “About a year ago, I was a complete mess at least on the inside. On the outside, I might have appeared ok: 38 year-old mom with two small kids, successful professional with a great husband, great house, etc. But I would characterize my insides by saying I looked like Gollum from Lord of the Rings. I’d been abusing pain killers and alcohol for about two years and it had gotten worse and worse and worse. To say my life was unmanageable was the understatement of the year. I had hidden it pretty well by doing most of my indulging at night after everyone was in bed but it started seeping into the other parts of the day. As I heard Robin Williams say once, ‘I was violating my standards faster than I could lower them.’ Things were going nowhere fast, so I asked for help. My wonderful, supportive, shell-shocked husband took me to the hospital for detox. After I was getting back to work, after my husband told them I had had a kidney infection which is why I was out of work. He had consulted his sister, a doctor, to come up with this ailment as be a reasonable excuse for being out sick for two weeks. It was a little hiccup in the new ‘always honest’ routine. I gave myself a pass on that to protect my professional reputation and our family’s livelihood. Unfortunately, when I got back in the office, I was forced to answer a series of questions about my illness, most of which I don’t think I answered very well and when I googled kidney infection, I realized I was essentially telling my office I was sick for failure to wipe front to back.” That is awfulsome.

This is from the Shouldn’t Feel This Way Survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Marnie and she is in her twenties. She writes, “I’m supposed to feel good about positive attention, but I don’t. I feel guilty. I’ve been this way for fucking ages too. I’ve entirely given up on trying to have a relationship. The moment guys seem interested I am swamped with a feeling of guilt as though I’ve tricked them into being attracted to me as if I don’t have a right to waste their time by attempting a connection with them and panicking and it’s always easier to avoid them until they’ve lost interest than fighting through the anxiety. Friendship advances terrify me because I feel like I’ll let the person down in the end. Compliments are humiliating and being hired at a new job is just the worst, the thing is I know I look good on paper, I’ve been told I come across as intelligent, talented, attractive, kind, if also shy and a bit brittle. But I think I’m always going to feel like a complete fraud and that people only got those impressions of me because I compulsively hide so much of my real personality. Despite all this, I keep dreaming of the life changes I could make with a creative endeavor I could complete that will finally make me feel comfortable with myself and my right to be a part of other people’s lives. I know it’s not going to happen until I change my thinking, but I can’t stop fantasizing.” You know, this one really struck me, because fantasy is such an alluring, blunt coping mechanism for not wanting to be in our body and feel our feelings and I struggle with that all the time, I have such trouble being present and…

How do you feel writing that out? “Again, pretty pathetic also conceited because I implied that people generally have a high opinion of me and that’s probably not really true.”

Do you think you’re abnormal for feeling what you do: “I really do. Obviously there’s a not insubstantial percentage of the population that feels the same way. Especially with regards to taking compliments. But most people don’t. Even other people with depression and low self-esteem are capable of being in relationships and asking for help from other people. I can’t even bring myself to ask my mom for favors. Like I said, I don’t even feel properly human a lot of the time because people are social animals and we’re supposed to feel comforted and safe around other humans we love.”

Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself? “God, yes.”

Well, it’s a really, really, really common thing, that disconnection that we can’t quite put our fingers on and that’s why therapy is so fucking awesome. Because it helps get that ball rolling. Therapy and support groups, Paul said from his soap box.

This is from the What Has Helped You? Survey This is filled out by SoilentGreen and she’s in her thirties and her issues are generalized and social anxiety and depression. What has helped you deal with them? “Deep breathing, facing anxious shish---“ what if I started the whole podcast over. Deep brea—actually went back, erased all of them and started a first episode again. ‘cause it was that big of a fuck up.

What has helped you deal with them? “Deep breathing, facing anxious situations and not dying. Every day multiple times a day, I psyche myself up and tell myself it’s gonna be ok. I’ve made it through every day so far. So chances are good that I can do it again.” I love that.

Same survey filled out by a guy who calls himself Groove. He’s in his twenties, his issues, depression, anxiety, OCD, trichotillomania, coming to terms with identifying as asexual and a gender queer.

What’s helped you deal with them? “Therapy,” he puts in parenthesis, “no seriously, it works. Comedy, listening to albums by David Bowie, particularly Aladdin Sane, Low, and Heroes. Scott Walker, this podcast, drinking green tea instead of coffee.” Thank you for that, Scott. Oh, sorry, not Scott, Scott was one of the guys he listens to. Groove. Thank you, Groove.

This is from the Body Shame Survey and this is filled out by a guy who calls himself Aspiring Vegan Body Builder. Umm, “I’m a skinny 27-year old man. It feels hard to even write ‘man’ because I feel like a child. I wish I were the biggest, most muscular guy in the gym. I feel like a little kid among mature and strong men in the gym.” Thank you for that.

This also from the Body Shame Survey filled out by a woman who calls herself BirdieBlue2. And she’s in her twenties and she writes – What do you like or dislike about your body? “Almost everything, my acne makes me feel the most undesirable. I feel like everyone who looks at me notices it and is grossed out by it. I feel self-conscious about any fat I have on my body. I don’t like to wear tight clothing because I can feel it hugging the fat on my body.” Sending you a hug.

This is from the First Day in Therapy Survey, this is filled out by a twenty-s--- a woman who’s between 26 and 35. What brought you to therapy? “I had borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, and general anxiety. I won’t stay on medication if I don’t have talk therapy going along with it.”

Any fears associated with starting therapy? “I need to come across as pleasant and friendly and likable to everyone I meet so I have trouble opening up. Also as my ex-husband said on the way to my most recent appointment, with someone new, ‘don’t hate him immediately just because he has a mustache or pronounces mature weirdly or doesn’t know what tumbler is.’ I often times write people off for bizarre reasons especially when in a high-stress situation.” Um, and in parenthesis, “having to talk about my emotions.”

Of the fears you described, did any come true? “Not really. I immediately disliked this woman for what I felt were very legitimate reasons so I didn’t feel the need to make her like me quite as much.”

What’s worked best for you in therapy? “Really nothing this woman did helped me, in better situations, a place to be emotionally open has helped.”

What were your initial impressions of your therapist? “Knowing that I had my bachelor’s in social work after telling her that my ex-husband, whom I live with and am close to has Asperger’s, said ‘oh, as a social worker you can help him through that. Those are just social behaviors that can be overcome through practice.’ First, I don’t think it’s up to me to cure my ex’s emotional problems when I am facing so many of my own issues. Second, I’m sorry, when did I become the cure to autism? She said a lot of other problematic things and visibly recoiled when hearing about my drug and sexual history. Overall, she was kind of a bitch.”

Do you feel you can be completely honest with your therapist? “This woman is obviously never going to fix what she’s done. I just canceled my next appointment. Unfortunately I’ve been 302’d since then” – I’m not sure what that means – “and I’ve had a really hard time as I’m trying to find a new therapist. I wish she would have not been so horrible.”

Anything you’d like to share with a group of new therapists? “Don’t give insane advice about curing autism. Don’t tell clients to fix other people’s problems. Don’t be a cunt like this thin-lipped white bitch. Sorry. I’ve a bit of rage over how she treated me. Also, keep your fucking faces to yourselves. You are in the world of therapy. Get the fuck out if you’re going to visibly judge people.” I love too that I had just read a survey about somebody who asked me to ease off on the F-bombs. Which is followed immediately by an episode setting records for saying the word ‘fuck.’

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself RoastedVegetables, and he writes, “I had ADD, it’s been a crazy journey. I’m a gay guy and fell in love with another guy. We lived opposite a locally famous pub in England. One day I went to the market and bought loads of nice veg to roast before my partner got home. Whilst preparing the veg I thought it would be interesting to put a courgette to one side,” uh I think a courgette might be a cucumber, “to one side and chopped up olive oil and herbie veg in the oven to roast,” I fucking love the English, “in the oven to roast for 15 minutes. In the mean time, I got the courgette, put a condom and lube on it and started to anally penetrate and jerk-off in the downstairs bedroom. Just as I was about to come, I realized the curtain was open and the landlady and landlord were watching me in amazement. I ran embarrassed into the toilet with my courgette. I wanted to vanish forever. I had the guts to go into the pub and they just winked at me every time. I like that it’s our secret-“ Oh, “like it’s our secret. I find it funny now but at the time it was the worst thing ever.” You sound like a really strong person to be able to see that that’s just you being human, that’s a part of life.

This is from the What Has Helped You Survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself 99 or no, GG. Issues – procrastination, addiction, narcolepsy, ADD, perfectionism.

What’s helped you? “Positive affirmation, mindful meditation, diagnosis, medication, nutrition. All of that is just to cope, lol. I’m not better yet.” Thank you for that.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman in her fifties who calls herself MentalFloss and her awfulsome moment: “I was anxious to get home after a long car ride, at the time I was driving down a beautiful, normally empty street of farm fields, and woods not far from where I lived. This day there was a car parked at the edge of the field and a couple was standing with their backs to the road. This seemed odd and I looked over at them as I sped by. There was a half a heart trap at their feet,” that’s apparently a trap that you use to humanely trap animals and then you release them, “and their heads were tracking in unison to the left, what I didn’t notice in time was the squirrel that came streaking into the road. Let me stop here to say I have always been a huge animal lover. I love them all. As I ran over that poor squirrel with 3 of my 4 tires, a string of emotion swept over me. I was instantly struck with grief and sadness. This gave way to a sinking feeling as I silently chided myself for driving so quickly. A moment later, I was filled with rage at the couple for thoughtlessly releasing this squirrel into an empty field that had no cover instead of into the lush woods on the other side of the road. What fucking idiots. I glanced into my rear view mirror, saw their awestruck faces, and that is when I began to laugh. They had gone through all of the trouble of trapping this poor animal and driving it out into the country only to have me speed up and run over it right in front of their eyes. Seven years later it still makes me laugh as I wrote that last sentence. Truly awfulsome.” Thank you for sharing that. I hate to laugh at an animal getting, getting hit, but the rest of that… I guess that’s what makes it awfulsome.

Umm, I have an awfulsome moment, it’s uh… I hit a rabbit while driving a rabbit, a Volkswagen rabbit, one time. And I felt horrible at the time, but afterwards, I was able to go, uh, that’s kind of ironically funny.

This is…we’ll skip that one…and we’ll skip that one…naaah, I’m gonna read both of these. This is from the First Day in Therapy, filled out by a, and it’s not because these aren’t good surveys, it’s because my throat’s starting to get tired. Um, because I got a cucumber up my ass. This is filled out by a guy who is between 26 and 35. He…

What brought you to therapy? “A little bit of everything. Anxiety, anger issues, depression, sexual problems, performance issues, and getting turned on by underage girls. Substance abuse, insecurities, ruminations, two turn tables, and a microphone.”

Any fears associated with starting therapy? “The therapist will be overly religious, overly religious, or a bitch. That they would sign me up for Megan’s law (the worst social networking site).”

Did any of your fears come true? “My second therapist had a religious theme to her waiting room. She also asked me not to swear. I sent her an email informing her why I left at the suggestion of my best friend. He’s always right.”

What works best for you in therapy? “Knowing I can be myself completely and judgmentally. Not being allowed to swear is a big problem, so I made sure to check with my third and newest therapist. I will start trying coping skills out with my therapist and using emotional first aid. Speaking of, I would love a therapist that knew of the Mental Illness Happy Hour.” Well I get a lot of emails from therapists and social workers who listen to the show. I’m not sure how to connect you with them, but certainly if you’re in Boston, contact Susan Hagan.

Initial Impressions of your therapist. “I assumed she would have some Eastern-European accent and not work well with me. After half a session of what seemed like a general intake, except she typed her notes into a prepared word document, one that had all the basic fields. I wanted to ask her ‘is this going to be an ongoing thing? I could just smoke a bowl and fill this out myself.’ I didn’t say that. I answered the question and was happy to see she didn’t type as much by the end. I am always trying to be funny to some degree, so when I try a joke that fails to get a laugh, I regret making the joke and having to answer ‘what do you mean by that question / look’ that always follows.”

Do you think you can be completely honest with your therapist? “Yes. I don’t see the point in lying to them. Plus, it’s a lot of fun to throw a list of issues at them and see their reactions.”

Anything you’d like to share with a group of therapists? “Type your notes and thoughts later on in a way that doesn’t take time away from our session. When the appointment is for 3pm, don’t keep me waiting til 3:07. It’s rude.” Thank you for that.

This is from the What has helped you filled out by a woman who calls herself Perigee. She’s in her thirties. Issues: depression, anxiety, panic disorder, complex PTSD. What’s helped? Radical acceptance through a study of Taoism, meditation, very vigorous exercise, (getting sweaty and exhausted almost every day) scheduling time with friends to prevent myself from emotional anorexia and not agreeing to too many commitments at any time.” That sounds like an awesome regimen of things like you’re really hitting it on, on all cylinders.

The bad thing about doing the awfulsome moment surveys is now I begin to confuse awful and awesome.

This is filled out by Jess, an awfulsome moment and she writes, “My grandmother was admitted to the hospital yesterday for pneumonia. When the nurse was taking her medical history one of the questions she asked was if she wanted to be resuscitated if her heart stopped. She told the nurse, ‘yes.’ We asked her if she understood what she said yes to because her living will says the opposite. She responded in an exasperated tone, ‘Well I don’t want to just go away. I want to say goodbye to everybody.’ Everyone in the room burst out laughing. The nurse looked at us and said, ‘Well I guess you’ll need to update the living will.’”

This is also an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself HikingAlone. She writes, “after a four hour drive I walked into my brother’s house for family Thanksgiving. My mother looked up and said, ‘oh, Holly, you’re showing.’ I knew what she really meant was ‘you’re so damn fat you look pregnant.’ Mom always had something to say about my weight. And I thought to myself, how does one respond to a statement like that. And I said, ‘bite my ass, Mom.’ And she said, ‘oh, see how she talks to me,’ holding the back of her hand dramatically to her forehead. My brother said, ‘Mom, you totally deserved that.’ It was one of the few times I ever stood up to her.” Wow, you’re mom sounds like a fucking treat.

And finally, this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself MsSpock. She writes, “Three years into an abusive relationship, emotionally, physically, and sexually, with an alcoholic former professor, I finally had enough insight and the smallest amount of courage and self-respect to say ‘I need out.’ Of course, having come to the realization through both professional and family support I had to figure out how to do and how to do it and I had no idea, I was terrified. So my amazing family stepped in. I have three sisters and they all came with to a neutral location that we chose. A rose garden, of course it was beautiful. All the roses were blooming, the air was thick and sweet. It was a horrible contrast to the misery I was feeling. One sister, the driver, stayed in the car nearby with the car running and the other two hid themselves in the bushes around where I was going to meet him on a bench. Just in case he tried anything. Facing this man, this horrible monster that tore me apart, body and soul, took all my strength I had left and after I handed over the diamond ring in a zip lock bag, I got up and turned my back on him and started walking. I knew I wouldn’t have been able to do it without knowing that they were there to protect me. As I walked back to the car, not looking back, terrified he would run after me, the tears started and I collapsed into the car. My sisters had all made it back to the car and we started to drive away. Of course through the tears, I saw his car following us. One of my sisters pushed me down and held me in her lap as I sobbed as my other sister sped the car away with a kind of trick driving I never knew she was capable of. All I could hear was brakes squealing and we lost track of even where we were. We lost him somehow. It was one of the hardest things I had to do yet I can’t think of another moment that shows such unconditional sisterly love. I didn’t ask them to help. They saw something needed to be done, lent me their strength, and protected me without any words. Without a thank you needed.” What a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful awfulsome moment. I’d say that’s more of a beautiful moment than an awfulsome moment. But, umm, yeah, I guess there’s some awfulsome to it. Oh my God, break it down more, Paul, why don’t ya.

And how appropriate that I end the moment of perfectionist angst. I hope you guys enjoyed today’s episode and I hope you know that you’re not alone out there and that there’s help if you’re willing to get out of your comfort zone and ask for help, your comfort zone can sometimes be the worst thing for you. And by comfort zone I mean your day to day routine of not taking emotional chances in terms of reaching out and expressing how you’re feeling to appropriate people. Anyway, I want to thank you guys for helping build, oh my God, I’m rubbing my fucking nipples! What is my problem? Arms back. Just going at it. I’m so glad this isn’t a video show. I’m gonna have to bring this up with my therapist on Monday. Anyway, you are not alone. Thank you for listening.