Druebey

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WORK WORK WORK, makes me an old man...



Games you like: HOI Ricky imperialism colonization 94 chuck yegar air combat 92 EU3 etc

hobbies: gaming, cooking, reading, history

Favorite food: pizza Posts: 567

Administrators 3/25/2018 plus comparisons of games that come to mind. Quote Select Post

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I know its been while since I have said anything to you all, but I am dealing with medical issues(for instance just got done bleeding around 1 cup or 750 ml of blood a day internally with no answers). So I am trying to get back into things, still working on getting office set up... Research is coming along nicely. Alot of new materials for research gained lately and hope to get more. Ideas on a simple game compared to my own has come to frutition if I can make things work out(think HOI4/Victoria 2/Colonization hybrid). Just not putting too much out there at moment as I am sure others have their own ideas....



Now shall we start with the comparisions of games? Lets start with Colonization and HOI4 first as it was first one I did on steam and reddit.

22 years apart

Here is what I put but will add to it :



Have you all realized that Sid Mier made a game far more complex than this game in 8 bit memory and in 94? Colonization has four player controled countries(chosabe that is) plus natives that are separated into many different types. A working economy that has flucuations, downturns, up turns, demand and supply, list goes on affecting prices. Many types of units of civilian and 6 miilltary units each with thier own bonuses, terrain affects, multiple raw materials to be gained and refined, FOOD meaning something, Money having a purpose, Wagon trains for transport of goods on land and roads that make infrastructure make sense, Automatic trading for ships and wagons, At least 5 different types of ships, each with their own purpose and reason for being used... Even ability to capture ships if using a privateer or frigate. Random world generator and real world generator, many surprise resources on map in notation of coins, Fountain of youth that gives you a crap load of colonists... Many types of buildings to build military and civilian with their own benefits.



In HOI4 you can play as any nation present in 1936, only resources you have are steel, tungsten, rubber, oil... Nothing that is put into refinaries or like to be used, its auto made from map. trade is based on CIC instead of Money, a barter system, no special resources really, supply lines are created by a ui element that doesnt let you really set the ships or know anything other than amount and resource being transported and even the supply lines show less. Food is not in game nor is money. there are only three categories of ships and most of time the last one has no purpose. There is no merchant raiding like was in real WW2, No civilian units or even specifications nor buildings truly of civilian nature, its all bundled into CIC. Mostly military buildings to build with benefits that overlap but have no function if certain circumstances are not met.



I thought I would put this here to see what people agree with and disagree with. Honestly I think it is interesting to debate the advancement of video games



Now with all that said and done, there were other things I stated such as having money mean something and how a economic model could work :



Henry ford being a individual would be more interesting along with so many others.... And trading, why stop at just trading why not also building and allocation of manpower to resources and manufactured resources?



By now the comparision is simple, Colonization had raw resources that you sent civilian units to gather or mine, then another set of specialist would refine them to be utilized as either higher money makers or utilized to make units or buildings.



In HOI4, I would like to see this similated also... A tab for raw material locations(mines, fields, etc) that are buildable, a tab for manufactured goods(steel, tungsten, paper, etc) that are buildable, and then a tab for assembly(now known as MIC or NIC) but separate it more into triary parts, then another for a finished product(army, airforce, naval... all having their own tabs). Then have the buildings require raw materials and money to build and upkeep along with units and ministers that all feed back into the country at large using taxes, also have a tab for customer goods(materials made for civilians out of raw/manufactured goods) and have those factories buildable with raw materials and money, that pay x amount in taxes etc...



It would be a way to make money less arbutary and meaningful, also would simulate economy and also buildup of militaries better... Also allow for a tab for loans to other countries and companies(would allow for timeline to expand to maybe farther or backward for mods)...



Now that would be what I woulda done in HOI4 myself instead of going back to HOI1 ideal of IC doing everything and money not meaning anything, along with decisions from Darkest Hour, and even HOI1 had more techs btw... since you all wanted to complain about the comparision of HOI4 to colonization.



Now to continue that comparision that I had started with, FOOD, Sugar, wood, tobacco, cotton, silver(just a mined element for money that gradually lost value over time), ore were the only raw materials I can remember at this time... Food was used to supply the colonies and helped with population growth stagnation or deecrease(something that could be modeled without artocities). Sugar was made into rum which was sold to get more money, tobacco into cigars, and cotton into cloth for same reason. Horses used food to mulitply. Ore was turned into tools that were used to build buildings, make a unit type, make artillery, and make guns(which in turn were used to make the military units in game but scout). Wood was converted in a carpeters shop to hammers to make buildings and also artillery. Each manufactured good had its own dependency but silver(in HOI could make coal a dependency of making gold bars that go into researves and etc).



In HOI4 you only have CIC builds buildings, that build Military units or add stats... Have to research resource buildings but even then its only rubber and oil. Population magically appears at end of money not gradually, and you cant see what they are building or working on unless its in CIC/MIC/NIC tab. There is no FOOD, WOOD, Metals to be smelted, Fuels to be used, materials to make money, list goes on and on.





Now here was last posts I was going to use for that comparision :



have played HOI3 BICE... its lightwieght compared to what it should be in my opinion. But I have stated in past to others I am a hardcore gamer, not many of us around anymore and yes it is a very niche section. Now as per 3 types of land units, you are forgetting scout, vet soldier, vet dragoon, and all the assosiated upgrades with each unit. Also I dont want 3d battles or a FPS where I control a single soldier but I would like where I determine battleplans to be utilized and like. I still believe you miss understood what I was saying about economic modeling as you went auto to individual citizens, when by far I didnt. That would take alot of work and detication to get right and especially with differnet country incomes and like. So no I did not ask for that in a HOI game. I though asked that the economy be more fleshed out and money have a purpose other than sitting there. Seriously is that too much to ask of the Devs to come up with ways to utilize a resource that is made by selling or trading goods in a meaningful way?



IF that was true, then sub warfare wouldnt be a point of contention nor naval warfare in HOI4 right now. Also another thing with WTT they would have not placed decisions nor ability to utilize variables if most didnt want it to happen. Point being, more they do DLC the more the game will be somewhat geared toward the niche group that supported them through the years.... And even a nicher group of people that want games to be more micromangagement than macromanagement. That being said, I understand abstracting some elements but others I do not. it truthfully makes no sense to not make Money mean more than a number in a game when if it is to model reality that figure means alot of factors and has more than just one meaning to it.





Now lets add to that comparision HOI1 to HOI4...



In HOI1 you have the same units as in HOI4, IC used as trade and research medigator, along with disent... In HOI4 you have CIC for disent rate, research is auto done, trade is 8 CIC per resource, and then NIC/MIC to build units or components of units. Technologies were far more involved and indepth in HOI1 then in HOI4. Upgrades were not automatically done in HOI1 but are in HOI4. Ministers ment something more in HOI1 than in HOI4 as they not only gave bonuses and some malus they also created flavor events and like. In HOI4 you cant make ministers with presidents or tie them to the president. Had a rough supply system with real supplies being made(HOI1). Now as for HOI4, decisions were brought back from HOI2, individual equipment being managed was new along with different folders per nation and cosmetic tag, thats all that I can think of that was really new with HOI4 from the others, much less HOI1 that had alot more techs and alot more unit types.



OK so thats done, lets go to another comparision, Victoria 2 to colonization

16 years apart



Colonization had a better economic model and also colony understanding than Victoria 2. Yes Victoria 2 economic modeling was on par but in many ways it failed to simulate the time period unlike colonizations. Much less with victoria 2 there was no control really of population nor monatary situations(loans, entities taking loans, etc). Colonization while simple was advanced for its time and allowed for real market supply and demand to show and also flow of money from one culture to another. While taking into account taxes and many other factors. Victoria 2 barely scratches the surface of economic modeling of 18th century much less the industrial age with its various economic downturns and upturns, stock market rallies and seeling, list goes on. Military modeling is better in Colonization for its period also as most of Victoria 2 issue is being stuck with concepts from 17th century warfare and never evolving into anything meaningful. The ideas of Spheres of influence in a game about the 1800s shows the inaptitude of the Developers to come up with any true economic modeling, social stratification modeling, country differencial modeling, political modeling, military stratification and also evolving modeling. While colonization successfully goes from 150th century to early 17th century with regards to economics, warfare, political, social stratification, etc modeling. Also shows that petty criminals were used in colonies and also indentred servents. NOT just slaves... Also the game allows peaceful existance with natives and other minorities, while victoria 2 wants to victimize the majority.



Lets go to EU4 and Colonization shall we?

if using todays date 1994 to 2018, thats over 24 years apart.



So Colonization still had a better economic model of the period, mind you less resources produced than in EU4 but more detail to manufacturing and also allocation of Civilian workers. EU4 did sieging and ERADICATION of natives only with very little to have peaceful transition of power from native to European power(victimizing the majority of todays world again). Colonization only centered in the new world(which I would have loved if they expanded it to all the world and new resources and etc... with ships being able to be sent back and forth from "main country" to others and also colonies. That being said, EU4 doesnt do well with mana points either compared to Colonizations many points for exploration, military, etc...(both versions had this). Also EU4 doesnt really use money like Colonization did, as most everything is determined by income and production until end in Colonization as EU4 is more about massing land and trying to keep it long enough to core(Admin Mana plus maybe money) not worrying about the religious ramifications of actions nor anything else, especially in the new world. Colonization at least gave religion a chance as well as allowing for trading between natives and european powers. Also EU4 only shows Slaves as being a comidity... When there were slaves indentured servents, specialists, and regular laborers that were sent to the colonies among many other types of occupations. Colonization has specialists, laborers, indentured servents, converts from natives, and four military units. While EU4 has 3 land types that are teched up, with no stratification of society at all... Navally Colonization has caravels, Galleons, Piriteers, Ships of line, Frigates, Mechantmen... While EU4 has light galleys, galleys, small ships, medium ships, large ships, and transports. In EU4 only ship that has a major difference is transports as the others cant transport... While in Colonization majority of the ship types can transport units/goods in holds as is realistic. Naval battles in Colonization allowed for capture of goods and ships, while in EU4 its only capture of ships. Also in colonization Privateers were able to go anywhere on the map as the NPC couldnt tell what nation they were from, while in EU4 there is no such thing as prirates from your own lands NOR privateers to recruit. I believe that is all I can think of at this time, economic/ship warfare/ship types/social stratification/native relations... I forgot one important thing, FOOD. Food is a resource in Colonization that allows for stagnation/growth/decline of a colony. There is no such mechanic in EU4 at all. NOR resources being depleted like in Colonization.





Anyhow I hope to hear your thoughts on what I have stated and discuss the differences. IF I get enough suggestions for a certain game, I will add to this list that game(IF I have played it that is). Hello all,I know its been while since I have said anything to you all, but I am dealing with medical issues(for instance just got done bleeding around 1 cup or 750 ml of blood a day internally with no answers). So I am trying to get back into things, still working on getting office set up... Research is coming along nicely. Alot of new materials for research gained lately and hope to get more. Ideas on a simple game compared to my own has come to frutition if I can make things work out(think HOI4/Victoria 2/Colonization hybrid). Just not putting too much out there at moment as I am sure others have their own ideas....Now shall we start with the comparisions of games? Lets start with Colonization and HOI4 first as it was first one I did on steam and reddit.22 years apartHere is what I put but will add to it :Have you all realized that Sid Mier made a game far more complex than this game in 8 bit memory and in 94? Colonization has four player controled countries(chosabe that is) plus natives that are separated into many different types. A working economy that has flucuations, downturns, up turns, demand and supply, list goes on affecting prices. Many types of units of civilian and 6 miilltary units each with thier own bonuses, terrain affects, multiple raw materials to be gained and refined, FOOD meaning something, Money having a purpose, Wagon trains for transport of goods on land and roads that make infrastructure make sense, Automatic trading for ships and wagons, At least 5 different types of ships, each with their own purpose and reason for being used... Even ability to capture ships if using a privateer or frigate. Random world generator and real world generator, many surprise resources on map in notation of coins, Fountain of youth that gives you a crap load of colonists... Many types of buildings to build military and civilian with their own benefits.In HOI4 you can play as any nation present in 1936, only resources you have are steel, tungsten, rubber, oil... Nothing that is put into refinaries or like to be used, its auto made from map. trade is based on CIC instead of Money, a barter system, no special resources really, supply lines are created by a ui element that doesnt let you really set the ships or know anything other than amount and resource being transported and even the supply lines show less. Food is not in game nor is money. there are only three categories of ships and most of time the last one has no purpose. There is no merchant raiding like was in real WW2, No civilian units or even specifications nor buildings truly of civilian nature, its all bundled into CIC. Mostly military buildings to build with benefits that overlap but have no function if certain circumstances are not met.I thought I would put this here to see what people agree with and disagree with. Honestly I think it is interesting to debate the advancement of video gamesNow with all that said and done, there were other things I stated such as having money mean something and how a economic model could work :Henry ford being a individual would be more interesting along with so many others.... And trading, why stop at just trading why not also building and allocation of manpower to resources and manufactured resources?By now the comparision is simple, Colonization had raw resources that you sent civilian units to gather or mine, then another set of specialist would refine them to be utilized as either higher money makers or utilized to make units or buildings.In HOI4, I would like to see this similated also... A tab for raw material locations(mines, fields, etc) that are buildable, a tab for manufactured goods(steel, tungsten, paper, etc) that are buildable, and then a tab for assembly(now known as MIC or NIC) but separate it more into triary parts, then another for a finished product(army, airforce, naval... all having their own tabs). Then have the buildings require raw materials and money to build and upkeep along with units and ministers that all feed back into the country at large using taxes, also have a tab for customer goods(materials made for civilians out of raw/manufactured goods) and have those factories buildable with raw materials and money, that pay x amount in taxes etc...It would be a way to make money less arbutary and meaningful, also would simulate economy and also buildup of militaries better... Also allow for a tab for loans to other countries and companies(would allow for timeline to expand to maybe farther or backward for mods)...Now that would be what I woulda done in HOI4 myself instead of going back to HOI1 ideal of IC doing everything and money not meaning anything, along with decisions from Darkest Hour, and even HOI1 had more techs btw... since you all wanted to complain about the comparision of HOI4 to colonization.Now to continue that comparision that I had started with, FOOD, Sugar, wood, tobacco, cotton, silver(just a mined element for money that gradually lost value over time), ore were the only raw materials I can remember at this time... Food was used to supply the colonies and helped with population growth stagnation or deecrease(something that could be modeled without artocities). Sugar was made into rum which was sold to get more money, tobacco into cigars, and cotton into cloth for same reason. Horses used food to mulitply. Ore was turned into tools that were used to build buildings, make a unit type, make artillery, and make guns(which in turn were used to make the military units in game but scout). Wood was converted in a carpeters shop to hammers to make buildings and also artillery. Each manufactured good had its own dependency but silver(in HOI could make coal a dependency of making gold bars that go into researves and etc).In HOI4 you only have CIC builds buildings, that build Military units or add stats... Have to research resource buildings but even then its only rubber and oil. Population magically appears at end of money not gradually, and you cant see what they are building or working on unless its in CIC/MIC/NIC tab. There is no FOOD, WOOD, Metals to be smelted, Fuels to be used, materials to make money, list goes on and on.Now here was last posts I was going to use for that comparision :have played HOI3 BICE... its lightwieght compared to what it should be in my opinion. But I have stated in past to others I am a hardcore gamer, not many of us around anymore and yes it is a very niche section. Now as per 3 types of land units, you are forgetting scout, vet soldier, vet dragoon, and all the assosiated upgrades with each unit. Also I dont want 3d battles or a FPS where I control a single soldier but I would like where I determine battleplans to be utilized and like. I still believe you miss understood what I was saying about economic modeling as you went auto to individual citizens, when by far I didnt. That would take alot of work and detication to get right and especially with differnet country incomes and like. So no I did not ask for that in a HOI game. I though asked that the economy be more fleshed out and money have a purpose other than sitting there. Seriously is that too much to ask of the Devs to come up with ways to utilize a resource that is made by selling or trading goods in a meaningful way?IF that was true, then sub warfare wouldnt be a point of contention nor naval warfare in HOI4 right now. Also another thing with WTT they would have not placed decisions nor ability to utilize variables if most didnt want it to happen. Point being, more they do DLC the more the game will be somewhat geared toward the niche group that supported them through the years.... And even a nicher group of people that want games to be more micromangagement than macromanagement. That being said, I understand abstracting some elements but others I do not. it truthfully makes no sense to not make Money mean more than a number in a game when if it is to model reality that figure means alot of factors and has more than just one meaning to it.Now lets add to that comparision HOI1 to HOI4...In HOI1 you have the same units as in HOI4, IC used as trade and research medigator, along with disent... In HOI4 you have CIC for disent rate, research is auto done, trade is 8 CIC per resource, and then NIC/MIC to build units or components of units. Technologies were far more involved and indepth in HOI1 then in HOI4. Upgrades were not automatically done in HOI1 but are in HOI4. Ministers ment something more in HOI1 than in HOI4 as they not only gave bonuses and some malus they also created flavor events and like. In HOI4 you cant make ministers with presidents or tie them to the president. Had a rough supply system with real supplies being made(HOI1). Now as for HOI4, decisions were brought back from HOI2, individual equipment being managed was new along with different folders per nation and cosmetic tag, thats all that I can think of that was really new with HOI4 from the others, much less HOI1 that had alot more techs and alot more unit types.OK so thats done, lets go to another comparision, Victoria 2 to colonization16 years apartColonization had a better economic model and also colony understanding than Victoria 2. Yes Victoria 2 economic modeling was on par but in many ways it failed to simulate the time period unlike colonizations. Much less with victoria 2 there was no control really of population nor monatary situations(loans, entities taking loans, etc). Colonization while simple was advanced for its time and allowed for real market supply and demand to show and also flow of money from one culture to another. While taking into account taxes and many other factors. Victoria 2 barely scratches the surface of economic modeling of 18th century much less the industrial age with its various economic downturns and upturns, stock market rallies and seeling, list goes on. Military modeling is better in Colonization for its period also as most of Victoria 2 issue is being stuck with concepts from 17th century warfare and never evolving into anything meaningful. The ideas of Spheres of influence in a game about the 1800s shows the inaptitude of the Developers to come up with any true economic modeling, social stratification modeling, country differencial modeling, political modeling, military stratification and also evolving modeling. While colonization successfully goes from 150th century to early 17th century with regards to economics, warfare, political, social stratification, etc modeling. Also shows that petty criminals were used in colonies and also indentred servents. NOT just slaves... Also the game allows peaceful existance with natives and other minorities, while victoria 2 wants to victimize the majority.Lets go to EU4 and Colonization shall we?if using todays date 1994 to 2018, thats over 24 years apart.So Colonization still had a better economic model of the period, mind you less resources produced than in EU4 but more detail to manufacturing and also allocation of Civilian workers. EU4 did sieging and ERADICATION of natives only with very little to have peaceful transition of power from native to European power(victimizing the majority of todays world again). Colonization only centered in the new world(which I would have loved if they expanded it to all the world and new resources and etc... with ships being able to be sent back and forth from "main country" to others and also colonies. That being said, EU4 doesnt do well with mana points either compared to Colonizations many points for exploration, military, etc...(both versions had this). Also EU4 doesnt really use money like Colonization did, as most everything is determined by income and production until end in Colonization as EU4 is more about massing land and trying to keep it long enough to core(Admin Mana plus maybe money) not worrying about the religious ramifications of actions nor anything else, especially in the new world. Colonization at least gave religion a chance as well as allowing for trading between natives and european powers. Also EU4 only shows Slaves as being a comidity... When there were slaves indentured servents, specialists, and regular laborers that were sent to the colonies among many other types of occupations. Colonization has specialists, laborers, indentured servents, converts from natives, and four military units. While EU4 has 3 land types that are teched up, with no stratification of society at all... Navally Colonization has caravels, Galleons, Piriteers, Ships of line, Frigates, Mechantmen... While EU4 has light galleys, galleys, small ships, medium ships, large ships, and transports. In EU4 only ship that has a major difference is transports as the others cant transport... While in Colonization majority of the ship types can transport units/goods in holds as is realistic. Naval battles in Colonization allowed for capture of goods and ships, while in EU4 its only capture of ships. Also in colonization Privateers were able to go anywhere on the map as the NPC couldnt tell what nation they were from, while in EU4 there is no such thing as prirates from your own lands NOR privateers to recruit. I believe that is all I can think of at this time, economic/ship warfare/ship types/social stratification/native relations... I forgot one important thing, FOOD. Food is a resource in Colonization that allows for stagnation/growth/decline of a colony. There is no such mechanic in EU4 at all. NOR resources being depleted like in Colonization.Anyhow I hope to hear your thoughts on what I have stated and discuss the differences. IF I get enough suggestions for a certain game, I will add to this list that game(IF I have played it that is).