Two leaders discuss the only possible way to bring lasting peace to the Middle East.

When Pope Francis visits Israel on May 26, he is also scheduled, according to the Vatican itinerary, to visit the “State of Palestine”—an entity that the nation of Israel does not acknowledge. Because of his apparent neutrality in the Israel-Palestine conflict, some Palestinians are planning to ask Pope Francis to help them in their land disputes with Israel.

Francis is not expected to speak out about the land disputes, but the Palestinian appeal raises the question: Why is peace in the Middle East so elusive?

This is a question that has permeated discussion of the region for decades, centuries and even millennia. About 30 years ago, an internationally recognized ambassador for world peace discussed the question with an Israeli Knesset speaker. Speaking to his worldwide television audience, Mr. Armstrong recounted, “For the first time as far as I know, they allowed a private television crew to tape for television this conference between me and the speaker of the Knesset.”

It was Oct. 26, 1983, and the internationally recognized ambassador for world peace was accompanied by his personal aid, world news editor for The Plain Truth and Israeli Consul General to the U.S. in Los Angeles, Michael Ravin. The meeting took place in the private office of Menachem Savidor, who served as Knesset speaker from 1981 to 1984. The following is a transcript from that meeting.

Mr. Savidor: “You know that we have some basic problems in the Israeli economy. And then there are the conjectural ones. The basic problems are that a country spending one third of its gross national product on defense, one third to pay off debts. Now we are a coalition government, and the tail is walking the dog.

“In other words, every small splinter group [is] stretching out their arms; they are not arm strong, they are arm weak. And they ask for money to run their ministries and prove that they are successful. And since one third of our gross national product is inadequate to provide all this welfare and education and development, they grant themselves to a printing press. I am simplifying a complicated subject, Mr. Armstrong.”

Mr. Armstrong: “You know I see now as I didn’t when I was younger, the trouble in the whole world and its the trouble here, and it’s the trouble in other places, and its a world trouble. It’s every man for himself. People will join together and ally in groups provided that group can be against some other group. It’s person against person, group against group.

“Two cannot walk together except they be agreed. If there is contention, and if they are in a bad attitude and one is trying to get the best of the other or take from the other, you have no basis for peace. Now that’s the trouble in the whole world.”

Knowing Mr. Armstrong had just spent the preceding five days in Amman, Savidor went on to ask what the prevailing mindset was in Jordan.

Mr. Savidor: “Did you find any open-heartedness and a new spirit that we could engage in a dialogue and hammer out a settlement between us and our cousins?”

Mr. Armstrong: “Last time I talked with King Hussein was last March, and I told him that one thing that I would like to do would be to get him and Mr. Begin on my jet aircraft. And I said, ‘I know Mr. Begin would like to do it, and I know you would IF!’ And he began to laugh and said, ‘Yes, I would, IF.’ The if is the other Arab nations and what they would say about it. I find that the Jordanians do not feel as hostile toward Israel now as I think other Arab nations do. I think they would really like to be friends.”

Mr. Savidor: “I would like to tell you, Mr. Armstrong, and this is a fact. About the 18th or 17th day after the war broke out in Lebanon, … Syria was beaten and Soviet prestige was at the lowest ebb, and the source of intimidation was not there. But then they started with new plans. Instead of giving it a push and momentum, and sit down and discuss this, the American government wanted to enlist, at the same time, the full friendship of Syria and the plo. And you know, there were all sorts of negotiations behind our back, and they allowed the Soviets to rearm and to reintroduce themselves with 5,000 more experts and new, more sophisticated dangerous weaponry, and that’s where we failed.

“Well, I am saying this because after all the United States of America is the protector of the free world. If, God forbid, they just wrap up and disappear from this area and so on, I don’t know what’s going to happen.”

Mr. Armstrong: “The United States wants to be a friend of Israel. They want to support Israel, but also our government at Washington wants to keep the friendship of the Arab nations.”

Mr. Savidor: “This is legitimate; this is legitimate; this is legitimate. You can keep the friendship with the Arab countries if you show resoluteness, vigor and vision—and you show tenacity, perseverance. You have to, in order to address yourself to the Lebanese entanglement, you have to attack the fundamental issues, and you should not divorce yourself from the historic or basic data about this country.

“So they have a national pact that the president should be a Christian, the prime minister is a Moslem, the president of the Parliament is a Moslem Shiite and so forth. Unfortunately, in this animosity and this ethnic mosaic you have in Lebanon, with Soviet communist agents inside, and the wrangling and bickering and the skirmishes between them encourage the Soviet resistance to take hold all the time, it is, I am afraid, a very, very unpleasant task. Almost immaterializable. I don’t know how they are going to. Well, we are living in a turbulent world.”

Mr. Armstrong: “But I tell you, this is only going to be solved one way, and we humans aren’t going to solve it. But the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is going to have to solve it for us. And it will be solved, and it won’t be long now, and it will be done. I don’t mean a year or so, but I don’t mean another 100 years either.

“We’re in a crisis at the close of all civilization in this world. And the very hub of the whole world crisis is right here. And things are going to happen here to Jerusalem. Now one thing I can tell you, you’re going to see big events take place in Europe very soon. I am in touch personally with the men who are leading to reunite Europe. Reunite! They can’t understand why they are not making better progress now. Franz Joseph Strauss, Otto Von Habsburg, are friends of mine, and they’re working for a united Europe, and it’s going to happen sooner than they realize.

“Mr. Habsburg came to Pasadena to see me about two months ago, and he was a little discouraged that they are not making faster progress. Something is going to happen to force a new united Europe that’ll be a nation as strong and as powerful, if not maybe more so, than either the Soviet Union or the United States. Now our people in the United States don’t believe that. Nobody believes it, but biblical prophecy says it’s going to happen. And mark my words, it will happen. I am not speaking like a wild-eyed fanatic that doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And it’s going to affect Israel over here very seriously. It’s going to affect the United States very seriously.”

Mr. Savidor: “Well, the idea of a united Europe is, in my opinion, realizable. And after all, Europe was one nation with several languages and vernaculars.”

Mr. Armstrong: “United by the Catholic Church.”

Mr. Savidor: “Yes.”

Mr. Armstrong: “Prophecies like the second chapter of Daniel, the seventh chapter of Daniel, and a few other chapters in Daniel, the 14th chapter of Zechariah, tell us a lot, and that is not make believe.”

Mr. Savidor: “I wish I could have you when I am arguing with the Orthodox and national religious party here.”

Mr. Armstrong: “They wouldn’t listen.”

Mr. Savidor: “To have your background in the Bible, I could resist all the pressures of the religious parties in this Knesset.”

Mr. Armstrong: “Believe me, you will find the Bible is true, absolutely, and it’s going to happen.”

Mr. Savidor: “Well, I wish it come true.”

Mr. Armstrong: “People just can’t understand and they can’t believe. They don’t believe what it says. If they believed what it says, we could have a better world. It’s not just some visionary, it’s very practical.”

Mr. Savidor: “Well, we live in a consumer society—the tenants and basic values of our culture, of our civilization. This is a menace to the survival of the basic moral values of the Western world.”

Mr. Armstrong: “It all gets back to a way of life. There is a law. Law merely. Now your a lawmaking man; the Knesset is a lawmaking body. I spoke before the Constitutional Law Department at the University of Southern California, in their law school, and I was mentioning that law is merely the rules that regulate human conduct. It’s a way of life. The law of God is love, which is outflowing regard and concern for the good and welfare of others, as well as yourself, and equal to yourself. We don’t have that in this world. We have a law operating in this world and that law is vanity: I love me; I don’t care about you; every man for himself; I want everything for me, but I’m going to disagree with you. It’s competition instead of cooperation. Instead of cooperation and unity of the right attitude and spirit, we find people joining together in conflict with other groups, one group against another.

“Now, in World War ii, the United States and Britain were fighting against Germany. Now they try to ally with Germany against Russia. In World War ii, the United States was allied with Russia against Germany. We ally, then we change our allies, alliances. And we don’t see it all gets back to a basic attitude of mind and way of living. Now, I see that God’s way is wanting to help, wanting to share. Now that’s the way we do: We come to Israel; we don’t ask anything of Israel. You can’t find a single friend of ours over here to tell you I’ve ever tried to get anything here. I come here to give. You can check that all you want, you’ll find it’s true.”

Mr. Savidor: “Well I know.”

Mr. Armstrong: “When people can get into that attitude we’ll begin to have world peace. We’re not going to have that until, you know the Bible also prophesies a Messiah is going to come. And it is going to happen, and we are going to have world peace. We’re not going to have it man’s way as long as man wants to organize as he’s doing: this group against that group, this nation against that nation, this individual against that individual. It just can’t be.”

Mr. Savidor: “You are right.”

Mr. Armstrong: “As for us, we are not going to solve the world’s problems right now. And as for us—meaning the work that I’m doing, not the United States—we love Israel, we love the people of Israel, and we come here in peace to help. We know we are not going to bring peace now. My job is to proclaim the way of peace, not to accomplish peace. But to proclaim the way of the Almighty God who is going to accomplish it, and going to do it to us whether we like it or we don’t—He is going to compel people to have peace. It’s going to take force! Force greater than human force. And in the meantime, we just try to have as much peace as we can. Now, I’m a friend of Arab people, a friend of the Israelis, a friend of the Japanese, a friend of black people in Africa. And we have projects in all of these countries, and we know that we’re not going to bring peace, but we believe we should do what we can toward peace in the meantime. And I proclaim the way of peace.”

Mr. Savidor: “Well, Mr. Armstrong, I am, first of all, very privileged to have you in my office, the fortress of Israel’s democracy. May I just present you with [the] Medal of the Knesset. It pictures the building and then the sides of the three monotheistic faces of Jerusalem is holy to them. So here is the medal which shows Jerusalem for which you have done so much, and the Knesset the only fortress of democracy in the Middle East. And here is what I say, ‘To the honorable Mr. Herbert Armstrong. In appreciation of his true friendship of the land and people of Israel, and his magnanimous gestures which aid and strengthen the spiritual and moral tenants of our common culture. Menachem Savidor, Speaker of the Knesset.’ With my best wishes.”

Mr. Armstrong: “Oh, thank you so much—it’s a wonderful honor.”