Discussion amongst Survivor fans today usually consists of talk about strategic choices, immunity idols and other advantages, and who is in the best position to take the million-dollar check. Often we forget what the reality show has been at its core since its 2000 debut: Strangers from different walks of life forced to build a society together. Creating a new world for 39 days can bring in the outside world in all its beauty and ugliness, allowing players to take a closer look at their own daily lives within the confines of the game. One of those instances came to life on the most recent episode of Survivor: Island of the Idols, as a moment between two castaways reached out of the screen to have a conversation about microaggressions and implicit biases in the world today.

The action stopped down in the middle of last week’s episode to focus on Jamal Shipman and Jack Nichting, who up to this point had been shown as close allies. Jack made a stray comment to Jamal when asking the latter to move a pot off the fire, referring to his Survivor buff as a “do-rag.” Jamal was quick to point out the remark, calling it out as “deep-seeded” and “subconscious.” Jack saw the impact and felt immediately regretful for what he admitted was an attempt at a joke. And Jamal used the opportunity to speak not only to Jack, but the audience as a whole, about the meaning behind the comment during a confessional to the camera.

“It’s a little complicated about why this is insulting,” he said. “And I can understand why someone might think, ‘What’s the big deal? Don’t black men wear do-rags?’ The problem is the image a lot of white America has with black men is the thug, the deadbeat father, the leech on social services, which is, unfortunately, people wearing do-rags, tattoos, and wife beaters. This whole caricature is so ingrained in our culture and so comfortable for mainstream white America to digest about the black male body. For a sweet, well-intentioned boy like Jack, it flows off the tongue.”

Jack and Jamal would have a more in-depth chat later that night, where they discussed pillars of identity and the pervasiveness of privilege in daily life. After their heart-to-heart, Jack expressed his simultaneous remorse and gratitude to his ally for being able to make him see the world differently. Jamal, in turn, was touched by Jack’s genuine apology, something that he admitted he hadn’t received often during similar moments. Under the canopy of a starry night, Jack, and the Survivor community at large, was able to see issues of vital importance through Jamal’s perspective.

Speaking with Parade, Jamal elaborates on his feelings during Jack’s initial comment, how he approached the later conversation with him, and how he feels about the online reaction after the episode’s airing.

To start, can you elaborate on what went through your head as soon as Jack made the “do-rag” comment?

In the world of Survivor, the multifunctional headwear that denotes our tribe affiliation is called a buff. It’s always been called a buff. Jeff says, “Drop your buffs!” Buffs can be worn in 12 different ways. One of which is the way a do-rag would be worn. From the torrent of tweets and comments from people taking issue with my interpretation of the do-rag as a “black thing,” I gather that for some, it is news that the do-rag is a symbol of black culture.

Some light Googling should enlighten most of how the do-rag became a feature of young, black fashion in hip-hop, entertainment, and sports culture. As is the case with many symbols of black culture, society began to regard the do-rag as a marker of negative stereotypes about black men in particular: Gang affiliations, thuggish activity, and low-class status. This fashion piece was actually criminalized to the point where the NFL and NBA banned it. Dress codes at schools and clubs all over the country prohibit wearing them, and rampant police profiling made black parents wary of allowing their children to wear do-rags in public.

This is the background knowledge and lived experience that I have, and this is why Jack’s comment landed the way it did. Jack would have called it a buff if he had been talking to anyone else on the tribe. But when talking to me, he called it a do-rag. In that moment, I was confronted with the possibility that Jack might see me in ways that I don’t desire to be seen, that he is using inapplicable stereotypes to inform how he treats me differently than everyone else.

As a disclaimer: I understand that the act of wearing a do-rag doesn’t make someone a criminal, a drug dealer, or anything else negative. It’s a hair thing. I get it. But, unfortunately, that’s how damaging stereotyping is. It makes it necessary for marginalized groups to be super self-conscious about mundane behavior. I wish it wasn’t the case. But as it stands, certain people don’t have the privilege of not needing to think about it.

What led you to decide to highlight the comment to Jack, especially knowing how touchy subjects can sometimes have a bearing on a social game like Survivor?

Jack and I have developed an amazing relationship. We are true friends and allies out there on the island. I know his heart. I know his motivations. I know he respects me and wouldn’t want to hurt me intentionally. So, as I would with any good friend, I felt safe expressing my feelings and trusted that he would listen and prioritize our friendship above all else. Plus, Jack was the one who wanted to privately spend some time later that night talking it all through.

Was the situation with Jack the first time you had noticed that type of behavior or language with your fellow players?

I certainly wondered about the behaviors and language my tribemates used with me, what assumptions they were making about me, why they were choosing to share certain stories with me. For the most part, I gave people the benefit of the doubt and prioritized cultivating connections over challenging biases. This moment with Jack, however, felt pointed enough that it warranted a conversation.

You mentioned Jack was the one to suggest your later conversation. What happened in the time between your initial talk and that moment at night?

I kept trying to reassure him that it wasn’t a big deal and that everything is fine. Like in life, I had to make a choice about how to handle it in the face of some pretty concrete social consequences. What if Jack is offended that I took offense and doesn’t want to work with me? What if Jack thinks that I’m so offended that I don’t want to work with him, so he then no longer wants to work with me? So many layers. But, he insisted, so we tabled the conversation, went about our camp life: cooking, cleaning, strategizing, and sunset-gazing. On the way back to camp, we stopped at that log and continued the conversation.

The conversation got pretty deep as we discussed our backgrounds and our perspectives. That eventually got us to the place where the audience sees us talking about social identifiers and the privilege that comes with occupying the “top step,” as Jack calls it. While I do think that racial privilege allows for Jack to be unaware of the implications of off-handedly calling a black man’s buff a do-rag, I now understand that he meant no harm by it and inadvertently waded into a sensitive territory for me. That’s why it was important to have a conversation and gain a better understanding.

In addition to educating Jack about the codedness of the comment, you, in turn, spoke about how touched you were by his genuine apology. How much has that moment stuck with you, and did the situation change the way you looked at Jack at all?

Like I say, I don’t get a lot of apologies like that. As some on Twitter and Facebook exemplify, I’m often met with a lot of resistance when pointing out the hurtfulness of what was said or the harmfulness of what was done. The onus is put on me to not “take things personally” or “learn how to take a joke” or “quit being so sensitive” or “stop looking for reasons to be a victim” or “get over it” or “grow up.” People don’t seem to realize that I make that choice almost every day. The 19 out of 20 times that a person of color might feel uncomfortable with comments or behavior towards them, they choose to do exactly that–let it go. And it doesn’t help that the one time they choose to speak up, they get met with verbally violent condemnation.

This is why Jack is a special human being. He was able to recognize that his comment made me uncomfortable and wanted no part in causing that kind of consternation for me. I’m getting a lot of kudos for the way I handled the situation, but, for me, I actually learned a lot from Jack at that moment. We could all take notes from him about how to handle instances where we unintentionally cause harm and how to prioritize our relationships over our own egos.

The scene has received a cascade of commentary from the Survivor community. How have you responded to the way fans have highlighted you for talking through such an important moment?

It’s really heartwarming to see the outpouring of support. The part that I find so wonderful is how this interaction is helping people feel seen in ways they never thought possible. People seem to be surprised that CBS even aired this conversation. To be completely honest, so was I! But, as you can see, it was really important, and, as Jeff said, it was really healing to see a well-executed conversation about identity and privilege.

I will say, though, I felt very prepared for this kind of conversation. People who know me unanimously agree that this conversation was very “me.” All it takes is a dedication to staying curious about other people’s lived experiences and a level of comfort with your own privilege. I am an able-bodied, educated, middle-class, straight, cis-gender man. Those identities come with a ton of privilege, mostly the privilege to not have to think about my safety and well-being in most situations. Those who identify differently than me have concerns and stressors that I don’t have. Recognizing those differences increases my empathy for others and causes me to look for opportunities to, as Jack says, “be more of an activist in those regards.”