The writer/performer opens up about her anxiety, panic attacks, OCD, shame and body issues. She also reads excerpts from Okay Fine Whatever: The Year I Went From Being Afraid Of Everything to Being Afraid Of Most Things, her hilarious new book about taking risks and challenging her fears, especially social phobias.

Episode notes:



More About Our Guest

For more on Courtenay go to www.CourtenayHameister.com

Follow her on Twitter @Wisenheimer

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 416, with my guest, Courtenay Hameister. My name's Paul Gilmartin. This, uh, this here is the Mental Illness Happy Hour. It's a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas, and sexual dysfunction, to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist, it's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The web site for this show is mentalpod.com. Mentalpod, also the, uh, social media handle, you can follow me, uh, or the show at. Got some good stuff today. Really love this interview with Courtenay. It was recorded about, hmm, uh, four months ago maybe? Something like that. But I really, uh, I really like it. And it's interesting, we talk about CBD oil in, uh, in the episode. And I had not really heard of it before. And between the time I recorded this and today, um, I have started taking it at night to help me sleep, and it's, it's just, it's working great. And, um, yeah. And I am still in that relationship. I think I'd been in it like a week, when, um, we talked about the relationship that, um … (laughs) obviously (laughs). Give me a chance to warm up here, huh?! Don’t jump down my throat.

[00:01:32] We got some great surveys. A really cool thing we posted on, uh, Patreon just now is a beautiful correspondence by email between a listener, uh, and Teresa Strasser. Teresa's episode was from the first year, uh, part of the back catalogue now. And, there's a beautiful moment in Teresa's episode where she breaks down and cries and starts talking about how when she first became a mom, she didn't think she was up to it. And she was seriously thinking about taking her life. And, um, and this listener was really, really touched by it, and listens and re-listens to her episode for inspiration when she feels overwhelmed. So for those of you that are Patreon, uh, donors, you should check that out. It's, it's pretty awesome. And those of you that are Patreon donors, it would be awesome. We're, uh, we've taken a little dip with, uh, people being donors. Cuz I know some people, they'll sign up, uh, for a short amount of time. But, uh, it helps keep the podcast going. And we can definitely, definitely use the help. And you can do it for as little as a dollar a month. But enough, uh, enough of my begging. About the surveys: there's a beautiful happy moment, uh, where a co-worker supports someone who's struggling. There's a great happy moment of a couple who, uh, reconnected with their communication and re-energized their sex life. And, obviously this, this interview with Courtenay I'm, I'm a big fan of.

[00:03:15] I got this email—speaking of emails—from a woman named "Emma," and she writes, "Dear, how have you been? I know it is been a while since we last talked or saw one another, so it's probably real random to hear from me, lool." Now sure what that means. Maybe her nickname for me is "Lool." "I think it is been around eight years now, and I just find some old pictures from high school memories." I … well, I'll get back to that. "I have recently finished my career, and I tried to find a job. What about you? We must see each other soon, so we can talk about the old years. I hope to hear back from you. Really, I want to know where have you been all this time and tell me more about yourself. All my best wishes, Emma." I am ashamed to admit, but I am having trouble placing sweet, sweet Emma's face. And I, I am racking my—I know it wasn't from English class. But she, there's something that she knows about me because she knows that I LOVE looking at old pictures from memories. I don't know if you guys have ever looked at pictures from memories, but what you do is you write down a memory, then you take a picture of it. Then you sit by the fireplace and read it. And then, you get up and you write down your memory of reading it. You take a picture of it. You go back to the fireplace. You read it. And you just keep repeating this until you fall asleep by the fireplace. And you wake up on fire. It's very life-affirming. I will keep you posted … on my reconnecting with Emma.

[00:05:22] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by, uh, (chuckles) woman who calls herself "Noprah." And she writes, "My sophomore year of high school, I had to take the bus part of the time because I wouldn’t receive my license until July and none of my other friends could drive yet. I didn't love it because I get nauseous easily, and Millie the bus driver liked to take corners like it was the Indy 500." What a great picture you paint! Millie the bus driver. There's no way Millie was under 60 years old. "My grandparents were in town, and I was helping her dry the dishes as she was washing them. She was asking me about school and I was filling her in, and you know, the usual grandchild updates and the grandparent talk. There's a slight pause, and then out of nowhere, she blindsides me with, 'Do you see much oral sex on the bus?' I just looked at her, and I was like, 'Hold on. What do you mean?' Her response was, 'I hear it's a common occurrence, especially in the seats at the way back.' At this point, I'm dying of embarrassment. She continues: 'Well, I hear they also have this thing where the guys line up by the girl, like it's a choo-choo train,' and at this point I call in my grandpa and dad for support. My dad was like, 'Mom, where did you even hear about this?' Grandma: 'I was watching Oprah.'"

[00:06:46] Well, how is this for a segue into our sponsor, BetterHelp. I think grandma could use a little therapy. I'm a big fan of BetterHelp.com online therapy. I, I talk about every week cuz they're our sponsor every week and I'm so grateful for them, and I love what they, I love what they do. I love not having to get in my car to go to therapy. I love talking to my therapist. And, video therapy just totally works for me because you get the eye contact. And, uh, if you don't want eye contact, you can do it by, just audio or you can do texts or live chat, whatever you choose. Email. So, go to betterhelp.com/mental; make sure you include the "/mental" so they know you came from the podcast. Fill out a questionnaire, and they'll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor. And you can experience a free week of counseling to see if it's right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:07:51] This is, uh, a quote that was forwarded to me by somebody, a listener that found it on Instagram. And the quote is by, uh, Emily McDowell. And she writes, "'Finding yourself' is not really how it works. You aren't a $10-bill in last winter's coat pocket. You are also not lost. Your true self is right there, buried under cultural conditioning, other people's opinions and inaccurate conclusions you drew as a kid that became your beliefs about who you are. 'Finding yourself' is actually returning to yourself. An unlearning. An excavation. A remembering of who you were before the world got its hands on you.”

Intro

[00:09:42] Paul: I'm here with Courtenay Hamei—(laughs)

Courtenay: It's going so well already (laughs).

Paul: Listen, just let yourself out (laughs). I'm here with Courtenay Hameister (laughs). I had so much anxiety about mispronouncing your name. And I don't know why—you, I told her before we started rolling, if you lived here, we would so be best friends.

Courtenay: (Laughs) We already are!

Paul: You know, reading your book, I am so excited that, that you are here. Courtenay has a book called, "Okay Fine Whatever." It's funny, when your publicist pitched it to me, just based on the premise and the title, I went, "I know … she's my kind of lady." And, share the premise of the, of the book with the …

Courtenay: Yeah, so the book is called, "Okay Fine Whatever: The Year I went From Being Afraid of Everything to Only Being Afraid of Most Things." And, which is kind of a spoiler. But, um, you know, you might as well put the spoiler on the cover, I think. So, it was really about a year. I have anxiety, I have clinical, I have generalized anxiety disorder and OCD. And, uh, and so, it was about a year in which I tried to teach my anxious brain that everything was gonna be okay by doing things that scared me, uh, and then, uh, realizing that I didn't die. And then I, I wrote about them. And I had a column called, "The Reluctant Adventurer." And, uh, and I, but because I'm anxious, I didn't jump out of planes or bungee off of anything. I did things like, I went to a sensory deprivation tank. I went to a professional cuddler. I went to, I got legally high at work. I went to a fellatio class. There was a lot of dating stuff in there, too. I kind of went on this massive dating binge that year—

Paul: Dated some polyamorous people.

Courtenay: I did. I dated some polyamorous married dudes. And went—of course as you do—to build-your-own burrito night at a sex club with one of them, which was—

Paul: That, that one was hilarious.

Courtenay: (Chuckles) Yes. The, I, I think that, and the most shocking part of the night was, as you know, they ran out of tortillas. And I have to tell you, I was really angry about that. Like, I was, I, it took me a while to get over that. It was really the most shocking part of the night for me, for sure.

Paul: Yeah, it's like if you ran out of cilantro, understandable. Tortillas?

Courtenay: It's fucking build-your-own burrito night, right? It's not rice and beans night, you know? And, it's the most important part of the, the burrito. So, I was not, I was not happy. Yeah.

Paul: What I, what I like to, um, in your writing, other than your sense of humor, which is great, is your vulnerability. And you talk a lot about, um, your body issues. You have struggled with your idea of what your body should look like … sounds like pretty much your, your whole life?

Courtenay: Pretty much my whole adult like. I mean, I think that I remember the first time, you know, I ever kinda looked down at my thighs and thought they were fat. I think I was maybe nine or ten, you know? And they weren't really, of course. It's that thing where you look back at pictures of yourself. And, you know, there's that quote, "I wish I was as fat as the first time I ever thought I was fat." And, I was, I was an athlete, you know. I, what I was looking down at was my soccer shorts. You know, I was a soccer player. But, it's, you know, I just think it's so pervasive, mostly—not mostly with women, but very much so with women. It's just, it's so pervasive in our culture. And my, you know, my mother was and is, she's probably, she's 5'2" and maybe 100 pounds. She's been tiny her whole life. Her entire, sort of, matriarchal lineage has been women who are kind of obsessed with weight. And I have been obsessed with my weight, but I went a different way. I went a different route. (Laughs) And I just, you know, and I—

Paul: That's how you rebelled.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Exactly! But I, no, I just struggled. My dad struggled with, with his weight. He was a, you know, her was kind of a bigger guy. But he was in the military. And in the military, you have to actually, once a year, do this physical fitness test. And so, he would, uh, he would just eat nothing. He would just eat red meat and cottage cheese for a while, uh, once a year, like it was his own version of, you know, whatever the keto diet or whatever is out there now. So, I really, that, I went the, the sort of, heavier route, like my dad.

Paul: Share some of the comments that you heard as a kid and a teenager.

Courtenay: Well, I wasn’t, like—I think that I was, like, a, I think I was a size 12 or 14 when I was in middle school. And then in high school I was right around a 14. And I was, I actually, it wasn’t when I was a kid that people said appalling things to me. It was more, when I was, when I was grown up and I lived in New York City. That's where, uh, I actually, I was crossing, um, Thompson Street in New York. I'd just gotten to college. And, um, I was walking across a crosswalk, and, um, this guy was coming toward me. And he just looked up at me, and he said, "You're fat, but I'll fuck you." And it was just the most concise, horrifying (laughs), like, it was, he did such an amazing job with so few words (laughs), you know, like, it was horrifying, but you gotta hand it to him, right? He's—

Paul: He goes by the name "The Hateful Poet."

Courtenay: (Laughs) EXACTLY! He just, he had his moment and he took it. And, it was … yeah, that one …

Paul: What did it feel like?

Courtenay: It just … you, you really—

Paul: Do you remember sensations in your, in your body? And, also what you thought?

Courtenay: Well, I think that, it's really, it's interesting because I, I think that, um … If you hear someone telling a story about someone verb-, sort of verbally assaulting them, you know, I think that there are people that are like, "Ugh, come on. They just said something to you. Are you a child? Like, sticks and stones, right?" Um, no. Like, sticks and—

Paul: When it taps into your negative self-belief, it is atomic.

Courtenay: EXACTLY! Like, I, I, you know—because I, you know—this was also in the book, but—because I was, I was a virgin until I was 34. And, um, so, like, people would call … If someone's joking around and they call you a whore, that's a hilarious, that doesn't, that, it just bounces right off of you, because it's ridiculous, right? Like—

Paul: Right.

Courtenay: Yeah, exactly. If you … feel terrible about your body and someone taps into that, verbal assault is, is absolutely accurate. I felt assaulted by that person. Because you're just walking around, living your life and you don't expect someone to just reach into the back of your brain and find the black goo that it the worst part of yourself, and just slather it all over your body. And that's what that feels like. And I, I … everything happened to me that happened to you when your, you know, when your lizard brain (clears throat), when your lizard brain feels like it's being attacked. I, you get, you get that, uh, sensation in your chest, It's tingl-, like, your chest starts tingling, you start being not able to breathe as well. You don’t have as much space for your breath, um, and your ex-, my extremities tingled. And I … I wa-, you're walking, but you're not walking. It's that situation where you do get a little—

Paul: Yes. You're all sudden you're floating.

Courtenay: Exactly. Like, you're just not connected to the world anymore. So, yeah, it's, it's just … you know, um, there's, there's something, there's something, um … I think, ultimately, it's very sad to think about who that person was, and who those people are who feel like, something happened to you that's so terrible. Someone hurt you so much, that you want the rest of the world to just be down there with you, clearly. So, I should feel terrible for him, but, um, I don't (laughs). I just—

Paul: (Laughs) I don’t think any of us do.

Courtenay: Right. Yeah. But, yeah. So, there was that guy. One of my favorite New York comments, um—sorry (clears throat). One of my favorite New York comments was, um, was this guy who, uh, he—I think, I think he was just standing on the side of the road as I was crossing the street. I'm just never crossing the street again. I'm just not going to. If I go to New York, I'm just gonna stay on one block and just walk around it. But, uh, he was like, he was like, "Damn, look at that ass! I know you can cook! I'll marry you!" (Laughs) Are you kidding (laughs)? That was just kind of, that was kind of sweet in its own was. And, you know, terrible. But, that's, it's just to, to, for someone who can't imagine saying something to someone on the street about their body, to me it's just so far beyond. I just, I don't, I don't understand the mentality that someone believes that that's anything that they—

Paul: For the, for the person who is nervous about confronting a friend who is continually late (chuckles), the idea of saying something so horrible to somebody is, is just like, "What planet are you on?"

Courtenay: Yeah!

Paul: "What planet are you on?"

Courtenay: Yeah. And they're on the planet of "I, I Feel Pain and I Want Other People to Feel Pain."

Paul: It's also known as the planet Fuckface.

Courtenay: Exactly (laughs)!

Paul: And we're sending a spaceship there. The, the most hated astronauts, we were sending to planet Fuckface. And there's no control center because we don’t really care what happens to them.

Courtenay: Right. I don’t want to explore planet Fuckface. I don't feel like there's anything there for us, you know? But I'd like to, I would like to send all of those people, who make comments about people's bodies up there.

Paul: Read, uh, an excerpt from a pic—I dog-eared a couple of things. But I also, uh, wanna leave it up to you to read something that you feel … (unintelligible).

Courtenay: Let's see … um … You have, you dog-eared the, um, the chapter about the, the floatation tank. Or the sensory deprivation tank.

Paul: Yeah. I think it might have been the thoughts that you were having in your head, uh, be-, because it was just … to me, such a great snapshot of your anxious mind. And, and I also related.

Courtenay: Yeah. So, yeah, so I was in the sensory deprivation tank. And, it's just pitch black. You're in this highly salinated water that allows you to float, so you don’t—you could, you could fall asleep in there and it would be fine, cuz you're gonna, you're gonna be floating face-up. And, what's supposed to happen is that it's supposed to shut down your lizard brain, so that you can … have these epiphanies. Sorry, I …

Paul: I didn't have any.

Courtenay: I just took a CBD pill.

Paul: What's that?

Courtenay: Oh, CBD?

Paul: Yeah.

Courtenay: Ah, it's great! Oh, my gosh! We can, we should talk about CBD. If you, if nobody's talked to you about CBD and anxiety … taking CBD pills.

Paul: I've never heard of CBD. I've heard of CBT: cognitive behavioral therapy.

Courtenay: Yeah. No, CBD is, um, it's … it's a non-psychoactive. So it's T—there's THC in weed, right? But then there's also CBD. And CBD is what, like, they give to, um, people with epilepsy to help them stop having seizures. And, CBD also treats anxiety.

Paul: Oh! How ironic that it comes from pot, which it, like, one of the most—So it's, it's, obviously, the non-THC component, so you don't get high. But, is that also the one that they give to people who have nausea or, um, pain, chronic pain?

Courtenay: I feel like there's THC in the stuff that they give to those people. But, ye-, but yeah. Like, I think people use CBD. There's salves, there's tinctures. There's pills. You can, um, I've, you can vape CBD. It's just super-douchey. I'm kidding; it's not (laughs).

Paul: (Laughs) Only if you're wearing a fedora.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Exactly! Exactly. That's the only that it's douchey. No, it, um, uh, it's … I mean, I highly recommend it. You know, the problem with taking … If you, you know … there a lots of, uh, antidepressants that work for anxiety, like Prozac—I mean, you know, there's a long list, right? But I haven’t been able to find something that doesn’t make me either exhausted or actually more anxious. But CBD is magical. I found that … Yeah, it's, um, and, and, and also if you were to take a Xanax or, um, Ativan, a benzo, I don't know if you’ve ever taken those.

Paul: Not a good long-term plan. So addictive. And you can die from withdrawal of those.

Courtenay: Oh, really?!

Paul: Oh yeah!

Courtenay: I hadn't heard that. In any case, like, uh, so, uh, those, for me, they screw up my memory. I get a horrible hangover the next day, if I have to take them prior to a performance or something. But CBD really has, for me, it has no side effects.

Paul: That's fantastic!

Courtenay: Yeah. So, and if you take it, if you take it in high, in high dosages, it can just knock you out. Just make you exhausted and want to nap. But if you can find the right dosage, um, it's just this wonderful. Just, you know how, um, I mean, anxiety is just this edgy thing, right? And it just sort of smooths out the edges a little bit. So it's not gonna work if you have, like, massive panic attacks before a, at a performance in front of a shit ton of people when the stakes are super high. But if it's more of a low-stakes situation, or even, like—I was taking it every day for a while. So, I, yeah. I, I mean, obviously, I'm not a doctor. Consult your physician. But, uh, yeah. I, look, if you have anxiety, look into it. I, I've had a lot of luck with it.

Paul: That's great. It sounds, to me, what I feel when I watch a documentary about serial killers. It just takes—

Courtenay: You start getting …

Paul: No, it just takes the edge off. There's something so oddly comforting, I think because the deepest recesses of my negative self-beliefs are that I'm a bad person. And when I watch something on a serial killer, it's like, "Oh, let's grade life on a curve. I passed."

Courtenay: (Laughs) That's fantastic! It's the same, it's the, sa-, I have the same thing with watching "Hoarders." If I watch "Hoarders," I think, "You know what? I've got my shit together. I just, I really, my house is completely organized." Yeah, so same deal. But, see, I watch a serial killer documentary, and I get anxious. Bu that's my OCD. So intrusive thought OCD, um, uh, makes you think that you could be a serial killer. So—

Paul: Also, being a, a female, you might approach it differently, since it seems like the majority of victims of serial killers are, tend to be female.

Courtenay: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: Do you need to live in a state where, uh, weed is legal to get CBD?

Courtenay: Well, so, um, you can get pure CBD. And, in that case, you don't because there's nothing psychoactive about it. There's no actually, sort of, there's none of that, uh, the, the stuff that, that people wanna smoke weed for, in it. But, I, what I've heard is, there needs to be at least trace amounts of THC in it in order to activate the CBD.

Paul: I see.

Courtenay: So … yeah. So you probably. You know, there … I mean, there are these devastating stories about families who have actually moved and left other children because the needed to take their child, who is having all of these, um, seizures, to a state where they can actually get, get, get THC and CBD, which, you know, if freaking insane. You know, this is why medical marijuana should be legal in every state.

Paul: And I love, too, that they're, they're probably driving past drunk drivers on a three-day meth run (chuckles) … Well, not that meth is legal. But, uh, you know. And I certainly have no problem with alcohol being legal. But, come on!

Courtenay: Well, yeah, exactly. Well, and, so, I guess, yeah. It's difficult, I think, like, if you're in a 12-step program, if, you know, if you're in recovery, you probably can't that CBD that has that small bit of THC in it. But I know that there are differing levels. Like, people have different thoughts about that.

Paul: Yeah. I, my, my thought is, if you're not doing it to get high, and it helps you, that, to me, you know, your sobriety is your sobriety. I take Adderall because it helps with my depression. And I don’t take it to get high. I have no desire to abuse it. There's a lot of times I don't even take my second dose, and I don’t give a shit what anybody, um, thinks, because my psychiatrist prescribed it. I resisted it at first, but then I talked to somebody else who was a sober person. And they said it was the only think that helped them with their treatment-resistant depression, which is what, what I have. And it was a game changer for me. So fuck, fuck what anybody—

Courtenay: That's fantastic.

Paul:—what anybody thinks. Cuz I know the reasons I'm, I'm taking it. I am smacked out of my mind, but that's to take the edge off of the Adderall (both laugh).

Courtenay: That is, it's working out super well.

Paul: It really is. It really is (both laugh). Read, if you would …

Courtenay: Okay. So, yeah. So, this is me in the tank. And, I just sort of talked about how my, how I, how I'd actually managed to sort of relaxed my body, finally. Because I sort of live with my shoulders, I wear my shoulders as earrings most of the time. "Once my body was relaxed, I had to deal with my brain. It was still running at its normal pace, and it was all over the place. Some deep thoughts, some as shallow as the Epsom salt-infused water I was floating in. 'Why do we have ear wax?' 'What are those weird colored lights you see when your ears are closed?' 'I wonder if people masturbate in these things. Should I masturbate? Would it make the experience better? Am I even in the mood? I don't think I am. Am I rejecting my own advances right now? What does saltwater do to a vagina? Will mine look younger after this?' 'When does your brain ever rest? Even when you're asleep, it's busy making dreams. That seems like a bummer of a job. My job's kind of a bummer right now. Should I have just left when I stepped down as host? What do I even bring to the show anymore? What will I have to be proud of if I leave? Am I even proud of my work anymore?' 'If I don't have kids, what I am leaving the work?' 'I need to get grape tomatoes, if I'm gonna make that salad for Marie's dinner.' 'Why do we have organs in our body that can just be taken out without consequences?'" Those are all of my thoughts (laughs).

Paul: I think that the, the go-, the grapes for the salad might be my favorite one. And, who doesn’t think about other people masturbating in this sensory deprivation tank?

Courtenay: Right? Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, I think, probably one of the biggest reasons that people wouldn't want to go, is cuz they think other people are probably masturbating in there. And I would imagine, I'd imagine that they are. But they do this filtering, this massive, you know, three, three-time filter situation, so …

Paul: But it’s a guy with a skimmer who is also masturbating, which, so, his—

Courtenay: (Laughs) Because the cleaning up of other people's masturbatory effects just makes his think of masturbating, so he has to do it. I get it.

Paul: They’ve tried so many people out at that position, and everybody does it.

Courtenay: (Chuckles) Yeah. Yeah, so it's … yeah. It doesn’t really help; they just keep getting more and more … splooge in there, which (laughs) that's like a 13-year-old boy term. But (laughs) … sorry about that.

Paul: Oh! I so knew that we were gonna get along. Like two pages into your book, I was like, "She is the female me!" (Both laugh).

Courtenay: Could be.

Paul: What was I gonna … there was something I was gonna ask you about. Oh … Fuck, what was it? (Pauses) I dunno. It'll, it'll come back to me at a completely inopportune, uh—OH! I know what I wanted to mention. Courtenay used to be the host and producer of "Live Wire," which is a show, uh, distributed by …

Courtenay: Public Radio International. And I think PRX, now. I think they're combined.

Paul: Yes. And, uh, Luke—you stepped down—and Luke Burbank, who is, uh, a friend of the show and a great guy and super funny … and had me on as a guest on, on "Live Wire." Then took over as, as host. And so, you had a lot of mixed feelings about your decision to step down, because it was, there was too much anxiety in doing it, but then you also missed the positive reinforcement of doing a good job and etcetera, etcetera.

Courtenay: Yeah, uh, sorry (clears throat). I'm super phlegmy today, I don't know why. Yeah, it was, uh, it was … I was so lucky to have that job, and I had it for nine years. And, um, and I, so I, it was this amazing—like, I felt like it was this amazing, sort of MFA program. This extended MFA program. And, because I got to talk to these writers and directors and musicians that I admired so much. And I got to ask them how they did what they did. And I, and there was that aspect where there are these extraordinary, talented people who start to see you as a peer. And THAT, I think for someone who, who has imposter syndrome, for someone who, you know, is constantly waiting for them to realize that she doesn’t belong, that is really important. It was very important to me, um, because I didn’t have the self-respect, um, that I needed to get, to get what felt like respect from these, these people that I so admired. And that, I think, was the biggest thing that I missed. And then, also, you know, so this audience caused me a significant amount of anxiety, which is why—so I stepped down from the show because I had a massive two-day panic attack. And it had been led up to for years, where I had, what I used to call my dread ball. So, we had Saturday shows, and on Monday we had the writers' meeting. And my dread ball would show up, and it would be sort of golf ball-sized. And it would grow into sort of you know, you know how anxiety kind of lives in your chest and it expands out so that you just can't find a breath. And, um, so by Saturday, I sort of talk about how I was inside of it then. I was in a giant hamster ball of anxiety and just sort of rolling around the world in it. And, um, it became untenable, right? You know how it is, actually, to host a show. And you're sitting there, and you’ve gotta be present. You’ve gotta hear what the person is saying. You gotta ask follow-up question. And if you're struggling with anxiety, you can't really take in information really well, because your brain is just flying. It's got all of these thoughts going on. And it's blocking other stuff, cuz it's busy as fuck, you know? And so, it was really, it was an untenable situation. And … But when I lost it, I think, when I stepped down, um, I saw what I had lost. And, and, this, there is this strange thing with people who want to perform and want to ha-, get their work out there in a public way. Because the audience is for—and they have anxiety. I, I write about Elliott Smith; he struggled with, with anxiety. And, um—

Paul: And took his life.

Courtenay: And, yeah. I think it, it probably, yeah, it was a huge part of that, anxiety and depression, of course. But the audience is for you, this proof that you're worthy of something, right? I mean, you, they're, they're like this weird security blanket for your self-worth. But, at the same time, they're an anxiety trigger. It's this, this strangest relationship.

Paul: It's kind of like a first date.

Courtenay: It is! Yeah, a first date that, that, that goes really well, right?

Paul: Yes. Or, doesn’t (both laugh).

Courtenay: Well, yeah, that's cuz the thing—

Paul: Cuz I've had those.

Courtenay: Oh, yeah, sure. It depends on the audience, right? And, yeah. Oh, that's, ugh! A performance where they're not with you is just—I mean, because it, it is like a first date, right? But multiply it by the number of people who are in the audience, right? So, it's not just being, you know, being rejected (laughs) by that one person who has a weird tooth that, you know, you don't care about that much anyway.

Paul: It's like an attractive person saying you're fat and I wouldn't fuck you.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I don't get, I don't even get the good part of that insult! Exactly. Yeah, so I … it, it, it was, it was a, it was a huge thing to lose. And I , and I, and I, and I—It's funny, because I think for a while, I was working for the show, I stayed working for the show as head writer and, and co-producer. And I really think that for, for a long time, I think, Luke felt like I wanted my job back. He never said that, but I think that he had a, I think that he had that feeling. And I never wanted that job back. I mean, I, I knew what it had done to my body. It totally, I felt so different after I stepped down. It was so strange to not just have that constant buzzing in my chest. You know? So I was, I was massively relieved. But you can not want the job back, but also miss all of the amazing things that it brought you.

Paul: Yeah, I mean that, that first night, where you just broke down and cried and ran out of the after party, um, I would imagine that would have made Luke think, uh, just …

Courtenay: Right. Well, I don’t know if he … It'll be interesting. I don't, cuz I'm gonna be on the show. I'm gonna be on the show on, uh, in, like, a week and a half. And it'll be really interesting to see if he, if he talks about that, if he asks about it. I don’t know if he saw me. I ran and hid in the bathroom, because I, I saw him. And he was sort of … I, I had been at the producer's table that night and just sort of producing the show. And it was actually really great. I actually enjoyed the show for the first time. I got to watch it and, and, um, and it was funny. And, of course, he's, he's wonderful—

Paul: He's amazing.

Courtenay:—He's amazing at his job, right? So, I really enjoyed it. And it wasn’t until the after party where I went and I saw him—there was a director on the show. And I saw him, he was sitting in this sort of (unintelligible) at the bar. And he was talking with the director and a couple of other show guests. And there were also some audience members sitting there. And he was sort if holding court. And I just burst into tears. I immediately started crying—

Paul: How could you, how could you not? Cuz that's, like everything as a performer, we dream of. Is, it went great—

Courtenay: Exactly.

Paul:—the guests like you. And … you know, you're … just enjoying your achievement and, and success.

Courtenay: And the, and, you know, this thing always happened where the audience sort of attributed their great night to me, even though there were, there was this whole host of people involved, right? And so, you're missing that, too. And, it, *sigh*, I had this moment where, uh, I—And I sort of, I think that I turned my, what I, cuz I was trapped in the bathroom, cuz I was crying. And I was, and, and I stopped crying at one point. Bu then your face, you know, like, it, like, you know, I, it sort of looks like a map of Bolivia. And, you know, you just (laughs) got all this, like, you know. And you, your eyes look like a frog. And I thought, "Everyone's gonna know." But I managed to figure out a way, cuz … to, to kind of run out without him seeing me. But the other producers of the show, you know, who were also my friends, had seen me already. And this, the, the—Jim Brunberg, who is this incredibly sweet, big-hearted guy, who was one of the producers of the show, um, he sort of caught me outside. He saw what had happened. And he caught me outside before I went to my car. And, um, ugh! He said, he said, "They still love you, Court." (Laughs) And … I, and I said—And, first of all, I HATED that I was a person that would need to hear that. I just HATED that, that I was that insecure. That he would, that he would feel like he needed to say that to me. And I said, "They don't even know me anymore." You know? And I HATED that I was a person that would even say something like that. But THAT'S what I was feeling at the time. And that's what I lost, um, which is so funny, because it was a bunch of strangers. What I had lost was a bunch of strangers that I didn't know and who didn’t know me. But it was obvi-, I mean, I'm obviously still upset about it (chuckles). Like, it was really hard. And, and I think that, part of the reason that it was really hard was that I had no one to blame for that but me, right? I couldn't—My, my producer, my producer said to me, "We'll do whatever you wanna do." Like, after she knew about the panic attack, and we had had Luke host the show, she said, "What do you wanna do? Do you wanna go to a therapy and figure this out? We will do whatever you want." But it was me who said, "I can't do this anymore." And it was because I couldn’t control my brain. And that was so frustrating, you know? Because I'd still like to be doing it. I'd still like to be talking to all those people. You know, you, you do it for a living. It's, to me, it was the most … I felt so honored to be able to get inside people's brains and, and to hear, you know, to hear all of, um, all of the things that affected them, and all of the things that they brought o their work and all that stuff. So, um, anyway (laughs). Yeah, so that's kind of what that night's all about. And I'm obviously still super upset about it (laughs).

Paul: You can't see, but Courtenay has, had tears rolling down her face for the last three minutes (both laugh).

Courtenay: I'm also just like a giant wuss. Like, I, I'm a crier. But, yeah. And I should have assumed, like, of course I'm going on Mental Illness Happy Hour, so of course I'm gonna cry about something. So, anyway. You know? You're like the Barbara Walters of podcasts (both laugh). I think (both laugh).

Paul: I have a slight speech impediment? (Both laugh)

Courtenay: Yes! Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know. Anyway. (Both laugh)

Paul: What is another excerpt that would, uh, be good to read?

Courtenay: Let's see what I have dog-eared. You have the (laughs), you have the strip club dog-eared. Oh, and the cuddler …

Paul: Do the, do the, uh … the yoga strip club.

Courtenay: Oh, the …

Paul: Or, whatever it's called. OR, or the swinger buffet.

Courtenay: Oh god!

Paul: And then the cuddler one.

Courtenay: So do you, do you care which part?

Paul: No! No, whatever you feel like has a combination of, uh, your inner life and your humor.

Courtenay: Okay. All right. Well, I'll limit, yeah. So, I went, I went, um, I had this guy that I, like, super liked, um, who had been flirting with me for about a year. And, uh, and he was super not interested in me, but he just kind of flirted with everyone. But he invited me to Casa Diablo, which is, um, I believe it was the world's first vegan strip club.

Paul: (Chuckles) Only in Portland. Only in Portland.

Courtenay: And there's a second one now. But … and, it's hilarious. The second location is, um, is right next door to the Acropolis, which is known for their steak, for their great steak. And these two, seriously, there is a massive battle between these two strip clubs. Like, they try to steal each other's really good strippers. It’s hilarious.

Paul: Oh my god.

Courtenay: So, anyway. This, I was at Casa Diablo, which is this vegan strip club. And—

Paul: And, and by the way, I want to give a shout out to, uh, Luke. Because he's just, uh, he's an awesome guy, and I know he listens to the show.

Courtenay: Oh, okay!

Paul: And if I were him and I was listening, I'd be like, "Ahhh. There wasn't enough recognition. I need to know that I'm okay and that everybody loves me." So, Luke, we love you.

Courtenay: Yes.

Paul: And he's laughing right now.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Yes. We d-, yeah. He's, he's so talented. And the fa-, I mean the fact that he, that night that I had the, the panic attack, he was supposed to be on the show the next day, just as a guest. And Robin, our producer, called him and said, you know, "Hey, can you host the show?" And he came on, and it was a three-hour show. We recorded two shows in a row each night. And he just came in, and it was amazing. Like, you just, just any everyday person just could never do that. He's just a super talented person. So … Hi, Luke. Anyway. (Laughs) So, uh, so … it was the, it was the strip club that make you think, that made you think of Luke? (Both laugh)

Paul: And he is another person that we hit it off immediately. It was, it was as if we had known each other for 20 years, and just, the sense of humor, our world views, our self-loathing, our (both laugh), you know, insecurities, and grandiosity all at the, all at, in one gorgeous ball of, of hilarity.

Courtenay: No. He, I mean, and when you, and when you talk to him—well, anyway. Yeah. He's just very, he's one of those people … And, and, he's one of those people who kind of is totally fine just being self-deprecating and, and you would think that, you know, as the, because he is so natural on stage, that you just has no, I would assume watching him, oh, he just has no, you know, he has no issues … He has (laughs), you know, he's just, you know … he's just is such a natural. And then, you know, and then he gets off stage and he tells you, you know, "Oh, I was thinking about, you know, this weird thing that's going on with my hair right now." (Laughs) You know. So, he's completely relatable, right? Okay. So, uh, I, uh … Yeah, so I'll just talk about, I'm just gonna start reading about Casa Diablo.

Paul: Okay.

Courtenay: "If you wanted to sit at the rack, you had to put a $2 bill in front of you for every song. So, we went to get our stack of twos from one of the bartenders, all of whom were also topless. In the same way, I find Halloween disconcerting, is it fun or appalling that my urgent care nurse has a witch's nose on right now? I found it strange to have a topless woman doing things, like making change and flipping a cocktail shaker. It was like the old Playgirl centerfolds, when the photographer had apparently caught the oiled-up hunk fixing an old Chevy, or fishing with his tackle out, so to speak. The scene was supposed to be sexy, just because the guy happened to be naked. But for me, nude oil changes and typing drink orders into a tablet aren't sexy; sex acts are sexy. I knew my reaction was unusual, especially since every one of the women in Casa Diablo was stunning. The majority of them were in the Suicide Girls vein: elaborate, artistic tattoos; Bettie Page haircuts; and perfectly toned, healthy bodies—all of which send me into a complex mental cat's cradle of assertions and rationalizations. Me: 'Jesus, they're gorgeous.' Feminist Buzzkill Me: 'You don't get to decide they're gorgeous! What's gorgeous anyway, muscular and tiny? Fuck you!' Me: 'Well, I live in our culture, so, yes, I've been socialized to think that. And gorgeous isn't a bad thing.' Feminist Buzzkill Me: 'You're objectifying them.' Me: 'But they should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies.' FBM: 'Right, but they're being judged by everyone here, so the power dynamic that should tip in their favor tips the other way. In most of these people's minds, they're sluts.' Me: 'Yeah, but the actual power dynamic is that men leave their homes and sit literally dumbstruck, dropping hundreds of dollars, while women they're not allowed to touch shake their hips a bit in front of them and maybe get on their laps. If aliens landed and saw this dynamic, they'd think women were worshipped as gods, which they kind of are.' Feminist Buzzkill Me: 'Gods who make 80 cents on the dollar, you mean?' Me: 'Jesus, you're horrible to hang out with!' It is exhausting to go out with me." (Both laugh).

Paul: That is so fantastic. What, what an encapsulation of how we feel about desire, you know, being sensitive to other people … wanting to be politically correct, but not give in to being coddling—

Courtenay: Yeah. Yeah, it's a real … I don't know. It's a real struggle. There's, there's so much, there was so much that I struggled with … um, as a feminist writing this book. You know, where, uh, because I have so many body issues. And it just pissed me off as a feminist. Like, stop it! Stop it! Because it's so, it feels anti-feminist, you know, to, to hate your body cuz you're fat. You know? Because it is! It is anti-femi-, you know? But it's, but it's also the truth about my experience, you know? So—and that, that, that's a struggle for me. I, I do believe that women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies. But I also know, I also know a fair amount of sex workers, and I know what they've been through in their lives, and that a lot of them have, have struggled a lot. And they're, they're … sometimes, it's a reaction to what, you know, doing that work is a reaction to what they've struggled with … (clears throat) and what's happened to them. And so, it's, you know—And because we d-, we don't live in a vacuum, you know? And, and, and there are people who, who judge them for doing what they do. And so, it, it just feels—

Paul: It's so complicated.

Courtenay: It's extremely complicated, yeah. Yeah.

Paul: Read the, uh, cuddler thing.

Courtenay: Oh, yeah! (Pauses) Uh …

Paul: Start … I think I have a dog-eared, where I wanted you to start, where the actual, um, cuddling kind of started. And just, if you would, set the stage for what the vibe of this was like and what you're feelings about this were, were like.

Courtenay: So, yeah. So, one of the things that I did was to go to this professional cuddler. And, um, her name is Samantha Hess, and she has a, she actually has a storefront in Portland called "Cuddle Up To Me." And, um, I, I think that my, my editor had sent me an email and said, "Do you want to do this?" And I said, "Absolutely not. I absolutely don’t." And … the thing is, I'm not a person who doesn’t like being touched. I'm a person who is actually a little concerned that she likes being touched too much, um, that I'm too, sort of, physically needy. And, that's what I learned kind of suing this dating binge. I, you know, I had been, I, I had been a virgin until I was 34. And then, when I sta-, you know, when I started having sex, I was a HUGE fan (both laugh), and, um—

Paul: Do you get the newsletter?

Courtenay: (Laughs) I do. I do. Yes, sexaholics. But, I, but I, and I don't think that I, it wasn't a, I, I don't think that I had a pathology around it. But I was just a, I was a big fan, and just wanted to kind of try a lot of stuff and, um, and, uh, and—But, but, then once I, once I broke up with that, I was with that person for a couple of years, in my first adult relationship. And, um, and then after that, you know, I—Because of my, I, I gained a bunch of weight after I broke up with him, or he broke up with me. And (laughs), um, and as soon as I gained a bunch of weight, I just didn’t want anybody near my body. I just felt a tons, tons of shame around my body. And so, uh, I didn’t get touched ever, you know? I mean, and it's funny because I was talking to this guy at a party about going to the cuddler. And he was this guy who just, you know, he was like, "Well, that's just, that's ridiculous. That's so dumb." He's like, "I get—" you know, he had been divorced, um, a couple of years earlier. And he was, like, "I get touched all the time. My, my grandkids. You know, my," uh, essentially, he was talking about his family hugging him. It is NOT the same. It is NOT the same. I mean, and it's, it's lovely, it is lovely having your family hug you. And, that's great. But having someone who wants to touch you, and who uses touch as a way to show their affection for you. It changes the way that you feel, physically and emotionally. And, I mean, they’ve, they’ve done studies, right? I mean, it, it—People who are not touched for long periods of time, um, it makes them anxious. It, it, uh, it makes them actually avoidant, a lot of times, of relationships. It's de-, it, they get depressed. And their self-worth is lower.

Paul: (Laughs) It just described me for the last … three years.

Courtenay: Yeah. It's, and, and it's terrible, and I, it's weird, because I'm not sure, I'm … I would have to read more about it to know how much of that is just physical and how much of it is the fact that we live in a culture where being paired off is supposedly the ultimate in self-actualization. Somehow proof, if you're paired off, it's somehow proof that you're fine, right?

Paul: Yes. And, and … go ahead; finish your thought.

Courtenay: No. I, I, I just wonder. I just don’t know—I mean I would imagine it's a combination of both of those things.

Paul: You know, as you were sharing the, you know, how it feels great to hug people that you love, it, it—I, I totally understand what you're saying, the difference between that kind of affection and the kind of affection where, it's not necessarily sexual, but it's a, a long … uh, touch. And it's—I hate this phrase, but it's the only one I can think of, it, or this term—is, that person is holding space for you. What you don’t get when you, um, generally hug a family member or an acquaintance. It might be an extended hug, which I love doing. I'm always … The other person is usually the one—

Courtenay: Who lets go first?

Paul:—that, that lets go first. And, I probably over hug, but, it's, it feels like, um … just so natural and the ultimate way of letting that person know that I really care about them. And it feels good to, to me as well. So, that, to me, is the, is the difference, um, between … the "Hey, it's great to see you. I love you," and "Let's curl up on the couch and …" you know. Just hang.

Courtenay: Yeah. What, what do you mean by holding space? I mean, I know generally what it means, but what does that mean for you?

Paul: Talking about, you're—Generally, if, if I am, um … God, I even hate the term cuddling! But, if I'm doing that with someone—and I've done it a couple times with platonic female friends, uh, and it's always been me asking for it—is, it's, I will also share about what I'm feeling. So, it's very therapeutic for me.

Courtenay: So, there's, there's talking going on during the process of it?—

Paul: There's talking going on, and I check in with then every bit of the way, because I wanna make sure I'm respecting their boundaries and that it's something they also, um, wanna do. But there have been times where it's been, like, you know, a favor from, from somebody. And they seem totally okay with it. They're just not in the needy space that I am in—And I hate even saying this out loud, because it feels pathetic, but part of this show is showing your, your embarrassments.

Courtenay: No, I think that, when I got … Part of the reason that is scared me so much to go to this cuddler, the idea of it scared me so much, was that I had seen how the internet had responded to her, and all of the snark—

Paul: I bet lovingly! I bet lovingly! (Both laugh) A supportive, understanding …

Courtenay: Yeah. It was awful. And I, and the—

Paul: Share some of the co-, some of the comments.

Courtenay: Oh, I mean, it was, uh, I mean … Oh, god! It, it … yeah, I wrote them in the book. It was, it was just like, yeah, people would just said, uh, that it was pathetic, you know?

Paul: And again … like, the person when you're at the crosswalk, mirroring our deepest self-hatreds and fears.

Courtenay: Right, yeah.

Paul: Which is what the internet is for.

Courtenay: Right! Yeah, yeah. It's just, uh—Oh, so sample of the comments of the stories about Samantha include: "Sixty bucks and hour, and I'm supposed to keep my pants on? No thanks." Someone else said, "It's really alarming if you have no one to cuddle with for free." And simply: "This sounds pathetic." And I read those comments, and I—the problem is, I related to the people who went to her, right? Like, and I didn’t want, I didn’t want those comments thrown at me, I think. And—

Paul: But you were doing it as an experiment, which, um, to me is less ammunition for the mean part of the brain.

Courtenay: For sure. I mean, I think that—But it was less—I think that it was certainly, yeah … I've gotten some nasty internet comments, and I certainly didn't want those. But it was more the fact that I knew that I needed that—

Paul: You were afraid you're gonna like and have to share that.

Courtenay: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t, I think that I just knew, if I'm gonna write about this, I'm gonna have to talk about, about how I feel and how terrible it feels not to be touched. And, um … I mean, I, you know … There, there are, I mean, there are chemicals that are released in your body when somebody touches you in an affectionate way. And, I, those are prominent in me, you know? I, um … it's, I, I was with this guy prior to, I was dating this polyamorous married guy. And he was the king of the afterglow. Like, and he was good. Like, he was, he was good in bed. He'd actually read books, he read this book called "She Comes First," which is very much appreciated. And, um, and that was great. But, he did this thing. Like, we had, like, we'd been … I think it was our second date, and we ended up just, like, having that, sort of, over the covers sex in my, in my (chuckles), in my house. And, um, and immediately after, we were lying there, we were just chatting. And he started just running his hand up and down my forearm in the most amazing way, as, just as we were chatting. And it felt unbelievably intimate, far more intimate than the sex had felt. And, it felt like exactly what I wanted out of a relationship. And, um, was that kind of physical and, and that kind of physical intimacy that weirdly made it feel emotionally intimate, which is wasn’t at all. We had nothing in common. Like, I think he golfed. Like, I (both laugh) … I just (laughs), you know, he, he, yeah. He worked in tech, and we just, we didn't have anything in common. But he was very sweet. But, just that, that feeling that I had when he was, when he was doing that, it was com-, it was, it didn't make any logical sense, you know? The kind of, the kind of—

Paul: That he would care about you. That he would enjoy your company, and that he would want to express affection for you without having something in it for him. Of COURSE that makes no sense! You fucking nut job (both laugh).

Courtenay: Well, thank you (both laugh)! No, well that's, that's, that … good point. Point to you! Yeah …

Paul: I think that's why it felt so awesome. There was nothing in it for his gratification other than to say "I really like this, and, and … thank you, and you're awesome, and I wanna show you affection."

Courtenay: Well, and I think that that—I talk about that in the book, too, where I feel like, um—You know how there are people who are just more generous with money than others? I think Samantha Hess is one of those people, and I think that this guy, also, Joe—the polyamorous guy—was this person—There are people in the world who are just willing to give you affection without knowing whether or not your deserve it from them or not (laughs), you know? So, I think that he was, he WAS just extremely generous with his—And, anytime that we went out, he was just always, you know, touching me, you know? We would, when we were watching a movie, he was just constantly, like, holding my hand and kind of rubbing it with his thumb.

Paul: The best.

Courtenay: It's the best! And, and there are people who I'm sure are listening to this, and are just like, "Gross! I hate it. Don’t touch me." I get that, too. But, I am NOT that person.

Paul: I'm, I'm not that person either. And I love that you said … that he doesn’t know whether or not that person deserves affection.

Courtenay: Yes!

Paul: It might be the most fucked up thing I've ever heard (both laugh), that there are people who don’t deserve affection. The, the worst serial killer, whatever. That … that person getting affection is not a, a thumbs-up to what they've done.

Courtenay: Yeah, I don't know—

Paul: I think everybody—

Courtenay: I don't think Trump, I don’t think Trump deserves affection—

Paul: I do.

Courtenay: Honestly. Really? Ugh!—

Paul: I really do. He does, because most people are fucked up because they don’t have enough affection in their lives—

Courtenay: I would agree with that.

Paul:—or their personality was formed because of a lack of affection. And there is no date at which that should be shut off. They … they don’t deserve it from anybody of their choosing—

Courtenay: Yes.

Paul: —but they deserve it from some person with a strong stomach.

Courtenay: Yeah (both laugh). Yeah. I mean, no, I absolutely agree. Like, I, I'm, I'm sure that, that, that the president, you know, he didn't. If you look at his mother and father, they don’t seem like affectionate people, and that may have been what's caused, um, you know, the global collapse that we're about to take—

Paul: And not an excuse for his behaviors at all—

Courtenay: No, no, no. Not at all. But I see what you're saying. I mean, I think … But, but, but, that's the thing. You imagine these people who, yes, deserved affection when they were … I, I, yeah. I guess deserving of affection is obviously a (both laugh), a little, it's a slightly judgmental term to use, when you're talking about that—

Paul: And, honestly, I think we all know that you were talking about yourself … in, in, in that, in that moment. So, I'm certainly not taking you to task. It's more of, of something that I, I think is in the meanest part of so many of our brains, and it needs to be addressed for us to let go and accept love.

Courtenay: Yeah. Well, it's, it's very, it's very hard, um, I think, for us to, um, uh, to think about, um … I think that a lot of us think, "Oh, I'll get in a relationship when I've fixed all the stuff (laughs)," right? When I'm, when, you know—And, and, um, you're probably never gonna fix all this stuff. I mean, I think—

Paul: No. No, you're not. We are, but you're not. You're beyond hope.

Courtenay: (Laughs) I will never fix all this stuff. But I think that I definitely have this, I have, have had this sense for most of my life, right? That, that there, these are the reasons why I haven’t been in a relationship, because I have all of these things that are broken about me. And if I could just figure out how to fix all these things that are broken. And what've realized, um, fairly recently—which is quite sad—um, is that it's, I don't have to fix all of those things. I have to fix how I think about all of those things (laughs), right? Like, I just have to, I have to accept—You know, and there's this idea of, I can't accept all of these things about me, because if I accept them, I'll never change them. And that's a big thing about your body, right? I can accept where I am right now, you know. I would be—And, and, so I need to be shitty to myself about what my body looks like right now, so I'll change.

Paul: Because, because we think that's disciple, when in reality it's exactly the, the, the opposite. And that doesn’t mean—Being kind to yourself does not mean you're throwing discipline out the window. And, when someone is expressing love towards you, it's loving back to take that love in, as uncomfortable as it, as it is. But to let that person know they're wrong is, is not kind to them. But … I'm not sure exactly how to handle it in that situation. I understand it; I've experienced both, both being able to take it in and not being able to, to take it in. So, read that, that, uh, part from where … she, she did the affirmations.

Courtenay: Oh, yeah. (Pauses) Let's see. So, yeah, I, I tell this story about how she, um, the, a, so, Samantha had told me that she had just sort of, like, uh, she had had some body issues, but she really studied physiology and body mechanics. And she just recognized, "Oh, it's sort of mathematical." So, she didn’t really have any judgments. And so, I say, "'Jesus,' I said, 'I can't even imagine what that would feel like.' 'Why?' she asked. 'Because no matter what I what I weigh,' I said, 'I never stop feeling like a fat girl.' 'What's wrong with being a fat girl?' she asked. 'Oh, god, everything,' I said. 'It means I'm lazy, unhealthy, and have no self-control.' 'Do you believe all that?' she asked. 'No,' I said, 'But, yes, those messages are everywhere when you're fat. Some people can escape them, but they seem like magicians to me.' I told her about losing all the weight after my gallbladder surgery and that I gained some of it back and I was struggling again. I told her how much of my self-esteem came from whether I was eating healthily or unhealthily. And how my level of food intake defined whether I was a good or bad person. That I could save a toddler from a burning building, but if I was eating a cruller at the same time, the two acts would cancel each other out. 'Okay,' she said, moving her head off my chest." We were lying on the bed, and I was sort of, her head was on my chest and my arm was around her at the time we're having this conversation. "'We're gonna do something. Sit up for me.' Oh, shit. My stomach turned. I didn’t wanna move, but she was so nice. I moved. She had me turn slightly to the right and adopted the standard little spoon position to her big spoon. I'd never been spooned by a woman before. I'd recommend it. Women and soft and pillow-like. She lay against my body, one arm wrapped around my waist, her left leg resting on my right leg, her limbs devoid of tension, like a marionette with no one holding the strings. 'We're gonna do a few affirmations,' she said. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me, and I drank a fly through a straw in sweet tea once. 'Okay,' I said. Silence. Maybe I'd gotten a reprieve. Maybe she'd fallen asleep. 'I am amazing,' she said. Oh, Jesus. I was hoping that wasn’t the affirmation and that she was just telling me something she was super proud of. 'I am amazing,' she repeated. 'I'm amazing,' I said. That wasn’t so hard. I am sort of amazing. I'm here, aren’t I? What non-amazing person would do this against her will? None. 'I'm enough,' she said. Ugh! Am I enough? I haven’t filed my taxes for 2012 yet. I may be going to prison, so it feel like maybe … 'I'm,' she prompted. 'I'm enough,' I said, then took a deep breath. 'I'm beautiful,' she said. I stopped breathing. I couldn’t say it. 'I'm beautiful,' she said again. And I was crying. A fucking affirmation is not making me cry. More than any of these others, this one caught in my throat. As much as I've always believed that affirmations were full of shit, here was something they obviously could do: show me as clear as day what I believed and didn’t believe about myself. The tears from my left eye were now flowing into my right eye and then onto the pillow. Undeniable tears. I could remember maybe three or four times in my life, when I'd felt pretty, and this wasn’t one of them. But even if I had felt pretty that day, I would never describe myself as being beautiful, as if it were a persistent state for me. 'I'm beautiful,' she said. She sounded like she believed, but she was beautiful. 'I'm beautiful,' I said, my voice breaking. So humiliating. Stop crying during your cuddle session. Stop it. I had a trick to get myself to stop crying in public situations. I would imagine the first chest-burster scene from 'Alien.' It had worked for me when I had to read Shakespeare Sonnet 116 at a friend's wedding. She had me repeat the whole series of affirmations until I could say them without crying. Finally, thanks to 'Alien,' I could. I can't say she made me believe them, but she made me believe that SHE believed them about me, which was almost as good. When the moment was over, I wanted to say something to the effect of, 'We shall never speak of this again,' but that seems inappropriate. I hoped that cuddler/client privilege was a thing. As the session wound down, we lay there quietly, and she ran her fingers through my hair. It wasn’t exactly the same as having a lover or friend do it. But I have to say, it wasn’t that different." And then I—this is interesting. I talk about how I have female friends who go to get massages, so that they won't sleep with a douchebag, cuz they just wanna be touched (both chuckle). And, like, I think that this would be so much better, cuz this is what they're actually looking for, is this kind of touch. So, yeah …

Paul: That is such an amazing passage.

Courtenay: Oh, thanks.

Paul: And so, I think there's so many people that … relate to that, listening to that. And, I am one of them. I shared with … Courtenay, before we started recording, um—And I, and I hadn’t even mentioned it on the podcast, because I'm embarrassed. And I've shared ALL kinds of shit. But, I paid a professional cuddler … like, three weeks ago. And, I felt so pathetic doing it. But, I so just want … to feel that, that touch. It, there was also part of me, also, that was like, "Well, you know, then I can also know what this is like," and I'm always open for trying new things on the podcast. And she was great. She … We had … deep conversations. She revealed a lot of, of herself. It was, it was totally non-sexual. And … and it, it felt really, really good, because I'm in that place where I, I've been dating. You know, I, my marriage broke up a couple of years ago, and I had one brief relationship, but it was long-distance. And, and since then, I have been—and I'm sorry I'm talking about myself so much, but I feel like I have to, I have share this because it's pertinent. And, I have had a couple of instances where I know that the woman wanted to sleep with me. And I thought about … what the conversation would be like afterwards. And, I did not … It was not a conversation that I … Conversing with, with them was not something that felt, um … I dunno, organic, to me. There was just—and it's not that there was anything wrong with them. There wasn’t that spark. There wasn’t that, I wanna look in their eyes while I'm touching them. And that was NEVER me before. NEVER me. But something has changed; I dunno if it's all the … work or whatever. And … I went on a date … a second Bumble date. And, I wanna take it slow. So, I didn't kiss her on the first date. And on the second date, I'm like I'm not gonna kiss her. We started to … And I made them during them the day, because I didn't want there to be any temptation. And again, this was NEVER me in the, in the past. And … we were at coffee, and she … asked me what I was thinking. And I said, "I'm thinking about wanting to kiss you, but I wanna take it slow." And she was shocked, because, like, she said, "I didn’t even think you were that interested in me." I was, like, "I asked you on a second date! How can you not think that I'm interested in you?"

Courtenay: Cuz that physical stuff is so important.

Paul: YEAH!

Courtenay: It's proof. It's proof that you're interested.

Paul: Yes. Right. And … and then, I said, "Do you feel the same way?" And she said, "Yes." And then, like, I, adrenaline started going, and I … we went back to her place, cuz she lived walking distance. And I was, like, "Okay. I'm gonna take it slow." And I knew I was lying to myself (both laugh). And, so, we laid down, um, on her bed, and we just kissed. And—

Courtenay: Ah! That's awesome!

Paul:—and we just … Kissing somebody and then, like … I can't believe this is me saying this, but just kissing somebody and looking in their eyes, it felt so fucking amazing. And then there's a part of me going, "You don’t even really know her that well." But I know that the first date that I had with her, I felt a connection. I felt like there was something inside her that I wanted to, um, connect with. Just beyond the, the physical. And … and then, at one point, I was, like, "Okay. I'm gonna take my shirt off (both laugh)." And, it's so vain, but I had been, uh, laying in the sun and I looked tan. And I was, like, "I think I might not look terrible." And … and she complimented me on, on my chest. And then, and this is really what I wanted to share, is she just began lightly … just taking her fingers and just stroking my chest, while we looked in each other's eyes. And I could not believe how amazing it felt. And we did wind up, you know, going much further (chuckles) than that. But that was the part, honestly, that felt the best, in, in, in terms of, um, something emotionally in me. I felt so seen, and I hadn’t felt … sexy or attractive in so long. It … I have, I have had to eat sugar to fall asleep for a couple of years now.

Courtenay: Oh, I … That … that seems so backwards.

Paul: And, I know. Everybody thinks it’s backwards. And I think the reason is, cuz I don’t crave it during the day. And I think the reason is that I don’t wanna fell that loneliness when I go to bed at night. And … I slept like a baby.

Courtenay: You didn't have to have the sugar?

Paul: No.

Courtenay: That's amazing. Yeah.

Paul: But it's scares me, because it's like that, that … there's something wrong with me that I can't sleep without having that affection, cuz I had it—we weren't together yesterday—and I had insomnia last night. So, that, that worries me. But I wanted to share that because … A)I like talking about myself (both laugh), but B) I think it's important for people to share the stuff that we think is cliché, and especially when someone like me has come in, come from a, a past of being a pig, being an objectifier, having my walls up, being checked out, uh, during sex—that we can change. All it takes is three solid years of deprivation (both laugh).

Courtenay: Oh my god! That's so easy. You make it sound so easy (laughs). Well, I … Don't you think that it's … I … You, the show, you do so much work just on the show, right? And you're reading these books, and you're talking to all these psychologists, and you're really, I know it's awful, but you're actuali-, you're actualizing yourself, right? You're … I think that you're evolving. You're, psychologically. And so, that, I, I … And, and there are people who … If you wanna have sex with no connection, go at it, right? Like, if that's good for you and that works for you, yay! But I think that, for some of us, like, for me, I had that, sort of empty sex for a while, and I really enjoyed it. I liked the exploration. It was interesting to me for a while. And then, your conversa-, you, you saying I, I started to think about having sex with them, and then I thought about the conversation I'd have to have the next morning? And I think that's what so many people sort of evolve to, right? It's this point where they're just like, "I don’t want to have to deal with that. It's not worth it to me to have the sex, to have to deal with having an awkward conversation with someone that I don’t really connect to." That's miserable. You know? And so, they kind of weigh those two things. And I, that to me ... If you are a person who is looking for a, a, conne-, a physical and emotional connection, that, to me, feels like an evolution. And it, I'm sure it had to do with the, kind of, the work that you're doing. You just recognize that about yourself, which is amazing, which is great. It's interesting to me that I think you talk about the, the actual, kind of talking that goes on during cuddling. You know, I think that, that most people really see that, that desire to cuddle as, as just a need to physically connect, connect with someone. But I absolutely—and I hadn’t really made this mental connection until you were talking about it—but so much of what became, what made the experience of cuddling with Samantha a positive experience for me, was that I, I was uncomfortable and I just started talking to her, right? And so, once we actually started having this conversation, then the physical part of it actually became more satisfying and less awkward.

Paul: Absolutely! Cuz it's an extension of the emotional thing. It's... yeah. To me, I have, I have never—and, and I, as I've shared, I've, I've, uh, you know … god, I hate the term cuddling. But—

Courtenay: I know (laughs).

Paul:—but, you know, I've watched movie with, movies with a couple of female friends, and it was totally platonic. And, um, you know, we would talk about our feeling. And that was what made it feel so good. You know, it feels good, certainly, to lay your head on someone's shoulder or put your arm around them while you're watching a movie. But, to let go of that … ick inside you, um, and have somebody else, you know, receive it and not … I dunno, shame you or run away or, or whatever, it feels nice. It feels nice.

Courtenay: Well, I mean, I, I, I think that, um, I mean I (chuckles), I say in the book that I think that, um, falling in love is, is half, just falling in love with the best parts of someone. But then, also, seeing them forgive the worst parts of you. And that's what you fall in love with, right? It's, it's half—To me, it's about 50 percent, you know, of that. And that's part of what intimacy is, right, is that we're revealing, you know, when, when you fe-, when you actually reveal your vulnerabilities to someone and you're shame or your, your humiliation. THAT'S intimacy. You know, telling someone that you had an amazing day yesterday and that you killed it at the gym, that's not vulnerable. And it's no-, and it doesn’t create a connection. We weirdly connect with each other through our vulnerabilities and recognizing our own vulnerabilities in other people. And I think that that's, THAT'S when those moments happens, is when we're, when we're physically close, is when we tend to have a lot of those conversations. And, for me, like, that, THAT is the, THAT'S what I remember … I mean this is what I remember from all of the beginnings of my relationships, right? It's those moments when, when you're whole body is an erogenous zone, right? You're sitting next to them at a bar, watching a band. And all you can think about is the part of your arm that's touching their arm, you know? And, uh, the tingling that's happening, right?

Paul: Oh my god!

Courtenay: Yeah, it's the best part.

Paul: Holding hands with her on the walk from the coffee shop to her place was AMAZING! AMAZING! It had been so long since I'd done that, and it just, it just felt so good, you know? And then, ev-, like, every block we'd stop and we'd kiss, and, and—

Courtenay: That's awesome! Yeah.

Paul: It was just so great. And, the thing that I wanna say is, all of this started with me … going to support groups and talking about the stuff I didn't wanna talk about and having people surprisingly, not only accept me, but love me, and then their sha-, them share their stuff with me. And then I became, became more confident and comfortable having eye contact. And then I wa-, now I'm able, I'm so excited to be able to bring this to a romantic relationship. And so, if anybody is out there listening and you feel like you're just broken or whatever, that's what I used to feel like. And, it's not to say I still don’t have a ton of shit to work on. But, it … I never thought I could experience a connection between my junk and my soul.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Right! You mean, your junk, your genitals and your soul? Or your—

Paul: Yes, yes, yes.

Courtenay: Oh, okay. I first thought you were talking about, like, the bad parts of myself.

Paul: No. No. And, and … it's … very, very exciting. And by the time this episode airs, one of us will have stalked each other, and I will be able to talk about the restraining order. So, that's (both laugh) … how I can't let something nice lay there, because I'm so uncomfortable with being, opening myself up to criticism or failure.

Courtenay: No, I mean … I, I think that, um, you know, you talking about, like—Cuz that's what people do, right, when you go to a 12-step meeting. Like, that's what people … I believe what's powerful about those, and I've only been to a few of them, um, but it's the stories, right? It's people telling their stories. And, stories are just the most powerful thing in the world. Like, um, have you … have you read Mandy Len Catrone or any of the 36 Question stuff?

Paul: Un-uh.

Courtenay: It's freaking fascinating. And she, she wrote a book, she would be great to have on the show.

Paul: Yeah?

Courtenay: She lives in Canada, I think. So, she wrote this, this thing that blew up for the New York Times called, um, I think it, the, the title was something like, "Ask These Questions To Fall In Love With Anyone." And it was based on this psychologist in the 70s did an experiment with people, where he created these 36 questions, and each one of them got more and more intimate. And you were supposed to ask each other these questions and answer them. It took hours, and then, just look in each other's eyes for four straight minutes, which … would be unbelievably difficult, even with someone that you really love. It's so awkward. And, um, we actually ended up doing that on Live Wire with a couple and they ended up falling in love—

Paul: Really?

Courtenay:—and living together for two years. Yeah. But, the idea of that—and, and, this psychologist, he had a couple people from his study who fell in love, Mandy did it with, with someone, and she fell in love and was engaged. And … But the thing that, that is so obvious to me is, I think that if you truly hear someone's story, you can fall in love with anyone, because they're telling—

Paul: Not necessarily romantically.

Courtenay: Exactly.

Paul: But, you can have love for that person and feel connection to them.

Courtenay: Exactly! Yeah. If they reveal their vulnerabilities to you, like, any—I just think that we … Seeing people's vulnerabilities is, I think, like seeing a puppy, you know? It's just, like—because, they're this, they're this sort of … ball of goo (laughs), right? And, you know, and, and, and, and I think that we just all can, we all fall in love with other people's vulnerabilities. And—

Paul: It reminds us that there are places of safety in the world, cuz it's so easy to just shut down to survive and forget, "No, I should let some people in." There's a lot of people I shouldn’t even be near, but there's a lot of people that I can let in. And it's really finding the technique of testing the waters and saying, "Okay, that little thing I shared was, seemed kind of, not received well. It made them awkward. I'm not gonna share anything more with that person, and then I'll remain an acquaintance at best." And that is, you know—But, judging vulnerability by the first two people rejecting it is, you know, like saying I don't like baseball because two guys did steroids. It's … you know?

Courtenay: It's so funny you say that. My, um, my, my mom—so, she was married to my dad for 27 years, and—she might hate me saying. Well, anyway … I can tell you to cut it out (chuckles). She was married to my dad for 27 years, and then after that, she reconnected with this guy from high school and was with him for about five years and it didn't work out. And both of those people, uh, my, my father was bipolar, and, um, the second guy had some pathologies. And she just told my brother, she's like, "I'm done. I'm done." This was when she was, I think, maybe mid-50s. And, uh, and, my brother was like, "Why?" She's like, "I'm just not good at this. I'm not good at this." And he was like, "That's like trying on two pairs of shoes and saying these shoe things just aren’t for me," (both laugh) you know? Like, NO! You just—

Paul: Such a great analogy.

Courtenay: Right? It was a, exactly. It was a great analogy. And I think that there're, you know …. This shit is HAAAAARD! It is so hard. And—

Paul: And if the shoes don’t last, last the rest of your life, saying shoes don’t work. No, you still go to enjoy the shoes. And if you learn something about shoes that you'll make a better choice in shoes the next time. What I'm saying is I have a shoe fetish.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Exactly! Well, and you looked fabulous in them for a while, and they became painful eventually, and you had to take them off. You know? Like, it's a, it is, it's a really good analogy. But, I think that it's funny, because, you know, we watch all these movies and we just think, "Oh, yeah. The happy ending is when you finally find someone, and—"

Paul: And it lasts forever.

Courtenay: And it lasts forever! But I, yeah. It's, like, no, the work starts. As soon as you're with somebody, that's where the work starts. Cuz if you, if you don’t fix your shit, like, it's gonna be miserable for you.—

Paul: And how to communicate, and how to communicate it.

Courtenay: I'm not very good at that part.

Paul: It's gets easier. It gets easier, and support groups have helped me have difficult conversations, because I believe there is no chance for intimacy without a willingness and a diplomacy for having difficult conversations. And then, repairing those, my therapist told me, can actually strengthen your, your relationship, and it becomes the foundation for the way you come back together. And so, that's why I pick fights.

Courtenay: (Laughs) Jesus!

Paul: (Chuckles) I'm kidding. Courtenay, thank you so much for just—You are as awesome as I had hoped you would be. And your book is called "Okay Fine Whatever," and we will put links to that and all your stuff. What, uh, where can people follow you?

Courtenay: I'm wisenheimer on Twitter. And my website's just Courtenayhameister.com. And just Google my name however you think it might be spelled, and hopefully Google will (laugh), yeah, it'll come up.

Paul: It'll come through.

Courtenay: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me; this was such a pleasure.

End of Interview

[01:30:57] Ah, she makes me laugh. And, uh, she is doing great. Got an update from her, um, cuz we recorded this, as I said, about four months ago. And she's doing, yeah, doing very well. And by very well, I mean still panicked and exhausted (laughs). Wanna give some love to our sponsor. What if your worst nightmare was real? In Mind's Eye, the first fiction podcast from the Parcast network, homicide detective Kate McClay is plagued by nightmares. So, she enlists her radio/journalist husband to get to the bottom of her horrifying dreams. And, in her search for an end to her nightmares, Kate fights against psychology, science, her own family, and even a serial killer. The scariest monsters are those hiding inside our minds. Mind's Eye is great for people who love true-crime podcasts, mystery novels, and audio dramas like Limetown and Homecoming. It's brought to you by Parcast, the storytelling team be-, uh, behind hit shows like Serial Killers, Cults, and Unsolved Murders: True Crime Stories. The six-episode, psychologicur, psychological thriller premiered December 24th, with new episodes on Mondays, so, listen today by searching and subscribing to Mind's Eye, wherever you listen to podcasts. That's m-i-n-d-apostrophe s-e-y-e. Or visit parcast.com/mindseye to start listening now. That's p-a-r-c-a-s-t.com/mindseye, m-i-n-d-apostrophe s-e-y-e to listen now.

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[01:34:08] Let's get to some, some surveys. This is a happy moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Mayor Bees." And he writes, "It's really hard for me to commit to things, but I realized I'm getting better on that front. I started listening to your podcast in 2017 in the middle of one of my worst depressive episodes, and it inspired me to pursue therapy and helped me start the process of the fucked-up shit that my parents have put me through my whole life—whether they realize them at all or not. Things aren’t perfect now—it's a forever journey. I'm out of therapy and really want to start back on a regular routine of that again. This past year, you've been in the background to my paintings, my walks, my washing dishes and doing laundry. After a year of listening to your podcast, being hit by a car when crossing the street to get lunch isn't a fantasy anymore. I check both ways and remember that I'm not alone. Thank you." That really, that's so awesome. I personally, I check one way. I like to mix things up. I look one way; I hope for the best, and it keeps things interesting.

[01:35:17] This is a shame and secret survey filed out by a woman who calls herself "MB." She is … in her 30s, identifies as gay, was raised in a stable and safe environment—that remains to be seen. She's never been sexually abused or emotionally or physically abused. Darkest thoughts: "When I was suicidal, the only reason I did not kill myself was because my family convinced me it would hurt them irrevocably. So, as a result of that, there have been times when I am at my most depressed that I fantasized about my family having all died in a plane crash, so that I could just kill myself and get it over with." Darkest secrets: "I'm a recovering alcoholic, three years sober. And I was fired from a job at a pediatric hospital for showing up to work drunk. I don't know what kind of terrible person endangers sick children, but apparently, I am one." It's—alcoholism isn't about being a terrible person. It's about not having the right coping skills to deal with the feelings that make you want to drink. And so, it's not a moral question. It's a sick, it's a sickness thing. Alcoholism is a sickness. And, it's up to you to treat it. That's where the morality comes in. Once you know the truth, that there is help for it, then it becomes a moral thing, of whether or not you, you seek help. So, don't think of it as you're a terrible person endangering sick children. Think of it as you're a sick person endangering terrible children (chuckles). You're not a terrible person. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you. And I've got to really question "raised in a stable and safe environment." I mean, that's possible, but, uh, I dunno. Let's continue and then, uh, we'll let the listeners decide. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I haven't given it a huge amount of thought, because I was raised in an incredibly conservative, religious household where sex was rarely discussed outside of medical terms. Just fantasizing about sex with women kinda seems like enough (lol). I think it would be nice to orgasm with a partner vaginally without a vibrator and then spoon afterwards. I would like to be the little spoon." Spooning is the fucking best. Spooning is the best. God, it used to make me just, like, "Urgh! How long do I have to put up with this until …" And it's amazing when we, when we change and we … let go of our anger and our shame and our discomfort with ourselves. It's amazing how great it feels to be comfortable with somebody else. So, yes, spooning. I live to spoon after we fork. (Chuckles) That is … (laughs) I know that has to have been a joke, widely done by people with low comedy standards. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody took me to comedy court for that joke. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? "I would like to tell my parents that I am gay." Well that, to me, is a great example of a, an environment that is NOT stable and safe. If you fear … being you authentic self in front of your parents, that is not a safe space. And I'm not saying your parents are bad people. I'm saying the children in hospital are terrible. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wanna marry a woman. Someone emotionally stable and logical and handy around the house. Maybe an engineer. I'd like to have a wife and a house and a garden and a dog and a baby and a job I don’t hate and some savings in the bank. I'd like to fold laundry and watch 'Jeopardy' together on a Friday night. I'd like to travel every year or two and walk through the farmers' market holding hands. I want to have a boring, happy life and never have to worry that my wife will leave me." You know what is a, a great place to get to, is that, that have—your partner adds to your life, but you don't find yourself worrying about them leaving you. That you know you will be okay, whether you're with someone or without someone. And that's easier said than done. But, um, there's certain things that only we can give ourselves. And, um … Have you shared these things with others? "I have shared that I am gay and want a baby with my therapist, and she was very supportive. Two friends know and are also supportive. No family members of childhood friends know." How do you feel after writing these things down? "A little bit sad and scared that I am 35 and running out of time." It is never, it is never too late to be the person you wanna be and create the life you wanna be. Because as we change, what satisfies us change, changes. And the things that I thought were SO important to me in my 30s, that, that I thought if I don't have this, I will just … What's the point of living? And, it's so much of, of happiness is just about meeting life where it's at and letting go of preconceived notions of what it is that we need … to be happy externally. But, um, I really encourage you to speak your truth about who you are. And then, whoever doesn’t stand by you, that's … people that aren’t worthy of being in your life … in my opinion.

[01:41:30] This is a happy moment filled out by "Julia." And she writes, "We were wa—" she's talking about her … dad and, uh, and her. "We were walking back from a pumpkin patch. I was rolling my pumpkin down the hill that led to the car. You weren’t far behind, walking with your pumpkin propped up on your shoulder. It was a warm afternoon, and I asked you what my prospects of stopping and getting an ice cream cone would look like. You said it looked pretty good. Then, without a word, you caught up to me and grabbed my pumpkin, placing it on your other shoulder. 'Dad, I can handle it,' I said. 'I need you to focus a minute, okay?' 'Okay,' I said. 'See that hole in the fence over there? Go grab us a few more pumpkins,' he said. 'You don't have to, but those green pumpkins look kind of cool, don't they?' They did. I quickly slipped through the fence, as you kept watching for passing cars. A few minutes later, I ran back out with two very lumpy green pumpkins. Totally worth it. 'Now run!' he yelled. We ran the rest of the way back to the car as fast as we could, with four pumpkins, laughing the entire way." That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. I should mention that she wrote this from jail, and she's six years old. But, it is … Now those ar-, those moments … I mean, she is, let's see. How old—She's in her 20s, and that memory … is, is still with her. That … her dad being present with her and being silly and having, and having fun. I love it. I love it.

[01:43:08] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself "Rick." He is straight, in his 30s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, has never been sexually abused, uh, he's not sure of he's been emotionally or physically abused. "My dad had a very short temper. I have a very vivid memory from when I was about five or six. I was just learning to read and my dad was reading a book with me. I kept mispronouncing certain words. My dad grew increasingly agitated and visibly frustrated. This made me more anxious, and I kept stumbling on words. Eventually, my dad grew so angry that he threw the book on the ground and scream at me." I would say that that is emotional abuse. "I started to cry. Realizing what he had done, my dad tried to comfort me, but ever since then I've never felt close or safe with him; only scared." And I'm not saying that your dad is … a terrible person. It's not that … This isn’t about qualifying who a parent is. It's, it's about giving weight to the negative self-beliefs that were instilled in us as, as kids, whether it was by somebody else or we did it ourselves. Darkest thoughts: "I sometimes think about what it would be like if my wife and child died. What it would be like to be freed of all obligations and just live by myself, for myself." It's a super common one that we get in, uh, in these surveys. Darkest secrets: "In my early and mid-teens, I collected child porn through internet chat rooms. On three or four occasions, in my mid-teens, I had my little brother touch me in the shower." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I don’t have any strong, specific fetishes, but I'm curious about a lot of sexual experiences. I've had a pretty vanilla sexual history, so I wanna try out many more things first hand, rather than just through fantasy and the internet." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I'd like to experiment more sexually with my wife, but it's tough for me to open with her about it. I'd like to apologize to my brother for having him touch me." I think both of those things would be great, um, to, to apologize to your brother and to open up the dialogue with your life, uh, with your (chuckles)—little Freudian slip—with your wife, about what it is that turns you on. Have you shared these things with others? "No. I'm scared of being judged by others." How do you feel after writing these things down? "It's cathartic, but tough to organize and unload everything I'd like to say." You know, the fear of being judged by others is, is … You can't have intimacy with, without going through that, whether it's platonic or … romantic. It just, uh, it's a part, it's the risk of having love in your life. But the payoff, when you do find people that accept you for who you are, is amazing, is amazing.

[01:46:18] This is a happy moment filled out by "Charlotte." And she writes, "I'd always been the weird kid growing up. I was interested in all kinds of obscure science and history topics, had weird hobbies, couldn't have cared less about pop culture, hardly watched TV—you get the picture. I was never without a distractor, ensuring I knew I was 'different' or 'the weird kid.' I got to fourth grade with a teacher who had a colorful reputation. He encouraged those weird curiosities, and we ALL had them. Everybody had a bit of weird kid in them, and we embraced that and appreciated what everyone brought to the table. First time hearing from a non-relative, 'Kid, you may be different, but you are okay.' Self-acceptance came a lot more naturally after that. Twenty years later, we are still close, and he maintains the same philosophy, that people are different and that's to be celebrated. His classroom is full of the 'weird kids,' and he appreciates every last one of them." And I imagine if he hadn’t felt otra-, ostracized as a kid and gone through that pain, he wouldn’t have the empathy and the awareness to be there, to help those kids. And that's, you know … what is, can be so great about having endured something difficult, is … that then we can help people.

[01:47:43] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Mockingbird." She is straight, in her 20s, um, was raised—hold on! I'll let you know how she was raised—pretty dysfunctional relation--, uh, pretty dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. I have a couple of stories. When I was eight, I had a friend, a girl, a couple of years older than me. She convinced me to go into the forest behind my house, and she would show me what she learned from her sex ed class. She made me take our clothes off and kiss our body. Our super religious families found out later, and I never spoke to her again. I remember feeling a crazy amount of shame. When I was 21, I broke up with my emotionally and sometimes physically abused boyfriend of six years. I was extremely suicidal and on strong SSRIs, which let me to become severely manic, engaged in risky behaviors and hyper sexual. I slept with over 20 men in just a few months. I went out to a club with a couple of men I'd just met and they had a few friends with them that I had never met. I don't remember much. I knew I was already drunk and who knows if I got slipped something. I still wonder to this day. One of them took my arm and led me across the street to his apartment and forced me to have anal sex, and then he brought me back to the club, where I went home with the two other men, who took turns with me. Shortly after that, I tried to end my life, but ended up in the psych ward instead. I've never told anyone thing, because I feel like it was my fault for even putting myself in that situation in the first place. Accepting drinks and invitations from strange men? Stupid girl." No. That is a separate issue from what they did. You should be able to walk naked down an alley, without somebody accosting you. It, it does not give someone the right to violate you. And, and when I say alley, I mean bowling alley, and I hope wear their shoes. (Chuckles) That was such a stupid … I see so many people beat themselves up and try to find a "mistake" they make, so they can blame their trauma. And that's one of the things that our brains do, and I've experienced that. And it is a prison of our own making. And, if we don't open up—You know, you said in here that you haven’t shared this anybody. I really encourage you to find safe people to share this with, whether it's a support group or a therapist or a trusted friend, um, because you deserve the compassion and the support that, that we need to heal. It's … I can't imagine healing from something like that one our own. I can't. And it's horrible what you w