Brief Overview

Broken Aspects

Hail

Coverage (Freeze-Dry + Hidden Power)

Snou said: This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types. Click to expand...

Snou said: Its sets are extremely predictable: Blizzard/Dry/Hidden power fight or ground/ Toxic or Flash cannon on the specs one, and there's the taunt icicle plate set that can fit some team. Every other set is just bad. csarf ice cream is the worst idea you can come up with, js. If you think scarf Vanilluxe has reasons to exist then you'd better start considering Scarf Audino and Specs Pyukumuku as an option. Click to expand...

Snou said: This doesn't mean it's unstoppable or what. This will probably mean that you will have to take in consideration more than a single answer to this mon while you build (nothing impossible, since on paper it has way more safe switchins than Heliolisk, js, but no one is even considering a ban on the lizard). This means you have to play carefully with your answers and don't let them damaged before it's time, or, otherwhise, the vanilla boy is going to reduce you in shattered pieces of glass. Click to expand...

Snou said: I said "take the risk" because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly. Its typing alone is not a good one on a defensive side, and its defensive stats are just mediocre. Ice type only means that you'll take every single damage you can take from Stealth rocks x2, spikes, toxic spikes and even sticky webs. And even if Sneasel is not as common as it was once, it's still a thing and can Pursuit the shit out of you. If you fail once, then you'll probably have to pick up what's left of your vanilla ice cream and throw it in the trash can. This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types.

In addition, despite Vanilluxe is not that slow, it's still slower than 80 base mons, such as Passimian and friends, and slower than the most common fire types of the tier (not counting Incineroar that checks it), such as Delphox, Magmortar and Houndoom. Thus, you're easy to revenge kill and we all know how hard is to find a decent switchin on Magmortar. In fact, if you want to use Vanilluxe, you will probably need a lot of support: it's not something you can splash everywhere. You need hazards control, fire resists, good setters, momentum grabbers. And you only have 6 slots, 5 not counting Vanilluxe. Click to expand...

I woke up this morning to this wonderful test, and I was very excited! Vanilluxe has proven to be a problematic Pokemon for months now, so it is nice to see that the council is giving it some attention. To give a bit of backstory, several users (including lax, myself, etc.) have been calling for a Vanilluxe test for a few months now. To give a brief idea of what Vanilluxe is, it is is a very strong breaker due to coverage, Hail, and natural power, and often requires little extra support that isn't otherwise natural. I do want to preface this post by saying that just because Vanilluxe isn't common, it doesn't necessarily mean that Vanilluxe is broken. I've seen some people argue that it isn't a problematic Pokemon because they don't often have to face it in battle, and when they do, it ends up flopping because of frailty or something like that. You'd definitely feel otherwise if it was used more by the right people.So I'll break down this part into sections since there are really several portions to this that we can talk about. I'll be sampling Snou's post throughout this post because I think that it has a lot of what people would say about Vanilluxe being not-so-ban worthy, not necessarily responding to his comments all the time, but generally just leaving his thoughts there to show the other side of the argument (and perhaps why that is a wrong way of thinking).In my opinion, this and the next thing are the two most broken elements of Vanilluxe. Without Hail, I don't think we'd be having this suspect test right now by any means, and that's reflected in that Vanilluxe wasn't even good until this generation when it got Snow Warning. The most obvious thing about Hail is that it gives 100% accurate Blizzards. Not being able to miss a base 110 STAB move coming from a Choice Specs Base 110 Special Attack stat Pokemon is definitely not an easy hit to take. There are definitely some Pokemon that can and will, but more on that later. Of course you could argue that 70% isn't the end of the world, but being able to avoid crucial misses is definitely a huge plus. However, the biggest positive of Hail for Vanilluxe is the chip. You will definitely see a lot of people argue that Pokemon like Incineroar, Silvally-Steel, and Klinklang can easily come in and tank a Blizzard, but they are all up to a 3-4HKO after Stealth Rock and Hail damage (hell, Klinklang gets 2HKOd). You could also bring up Pokemon like Hariyama and Miltank, but those are definitely not Pokemon you want on every team, and actually lose to Vanilluxe's Taunt + Toxic set, although that isn't the set in question. All of Vanilluxe's "consistent checks," are susceptible to being worn down extremely early on, and since those Pokemon lack recovery, there is a very little chance they will be getting any sort of health back unless you have Wish or Healing Wish or something. Therefore, it is extremely easy to wear down Vanilluxe's checks thanks to the addition of Hail, and is generally why it is able to run through teams so easily.This is the other most broken element of Vanilluxe. While some may argue that it has basic coverage, it really already almost hits everything with Blizzard and Freeze-Dry. The only two Pokemon it misses with those moves are Incineroar, Delphox, and Silvally-Steel. You could argue Pokemon like Houndoom and Klinklang, but those take way too much from a Blizzard. As I mentioned before, such Pokemon listed are kind of worn down easily, but that isn't the point of this paragraph. If you really feel unsafe in battle as to where you can't click Blizzard or Freeze-Dry, those Pokemon are patched-up by one single move: Hidden Power Ground. The best part is, you really don't need any other move. Vanilluxe ends up with one final slot which is usually given to Flash Cannon so the Ice v Ice match-up is a lot easier (this is actually a lot more relevant now thanks to Mega Glalie). So from an on paper standpoint, Vanilluxe has near-perfect coverage. However, some people may argue that this coverage doesn't seem to work 100% of the time in practice.Here's a part of Snou's post I somewhat agree with, but disagree with the use of it. You are correct in saying that it can be easy to predict what set Vanilluxe is running, but how does that relate to it being not ban worthy? Plenty of Pokemon have been banned based on a single set or aspect, such as Gigalith, which while it did have a Choice Band set, mainly ran a regular Stealth Rock bulky set. I know it may seem like most Pokemon are banned based off the precedent of over-versatility, and you see that a lot in NU's history with Pokemon like Emboar and Venusaur. However, you can't say that a Pokemon does not deserve to be banned because it lacks versatility and unpredictability such as previous suspected Pokemon. For the record, Choice Scarf Vanilluxe isn't even that bad of a set. It's not the best Choice Scarf Pokemon out there, but you can't exaggerate and compare it to Scarf Audino.I don't really have much more to talk about in terms of brokeness that isn't already obvious, so I'll respond to more of what Snou said in regards to Vanilluxe being not broken.On paper it does have more checks than Heliolisk. However, in practice, as I've mentioned, those checks don't always work out so well. Let me bring up a replay from Smogon Snake Draft (I know I've used this replay a lot but it makes a perfect example of how easy it can be to clean with Vanillluxe). Here's a replay of Lax vs FLCL from SSD II. As you can see, Lax immediately noticed from the start how weak FLCL was to Vanilluxe. Therefore, he kept it in the back the whole game until it was safe to come in and essentially just click buttons. You could definitely argue that it can be done with any Pokemon, but if you look at that match-up, Lax probably could've won with Vanilluxe a lot earlier too, but it is always nice to play games safe. Someone is going to bring up how there was no real check to it, and that's also true. That's probably just foolish building from FLCL. However, even if he did, the same thing could've been done. Keep Vanilluxe in the back until its checks are weakened down enough, then blow the opposing team back. This was probably not the best replay to use but the reason I used it is because it can be helpful to have some sort of a visual to explain certain situations. You may argue that if FLCL had an Ice resist then this game would've gone a lot different, but I don't think that's the case as I've explained. It would just take a bit more patience from Lax.So this portion is a lot to digest. So I'd like to quote the first thing you said. "I said 'take the risk' because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly." I don't like this argument because even you yourself said that it will fail if you don't play it properly. This is true for any other Pokemon ever. If you don't use it properly, it's going to do poorly. Perhaps you mean that it is easy to take advantage of Vanilluxe? This again can be true if you're not playing it properly, but generally what you should do is weaken down Vanilluxe's checks, then try and clean with it, which solves that issue. You listed all these hazards that Vanilluxe is vulnerable to, and that's fine. Meloetta and Emboar were also susceptible to all of those, but I suppose I should elaborate anyway. The most important of those that you listed of course was the 2x Stealth Rock weakness. Of course this is a negative for it, but does that make it not ban worthy? I don't see how it would. Sure this makes it easier to kill due to chip, but Vanilluxe is generally not going to be taking a hit from a Pokemon anyway, unless its slower and weak. You can also run Defog or Rapid Spin support, and while that can be twisted to say that Vanilluxe requires too much support, that's really not the case. Most teams want some kind of hazard removal anyway. Another negative that you listed is that Vanilluxe is easy to revenge kill. This is true, but you generally don't put Vanilluxe in a position to be revenge killed. I think in this post you really set it up to be in the worst situation possible. You're assuming that the Vani user will throw out Vanilluxe in the early-game, letting it get chipped down by hazard residual and U-Turn chip and such. You can turn this around and say that this post is hypocritical for saying that Vanilluxe will always be played the right way, however, it isn't that difficult to play Vanilluxe in this way. If there's a situation where that doesn't happen, its usually that the player is inexperienced or that Vanilluxe completely steamrolls 100% or doesn't do much in the match up (this mainly applies to the Choice Specs set).I don't really feel passionate enough to respond to much else, but there are a couple of more things I want to note. Vanilluxe does have a bit of a strong effect on team building, as it really forces you to run a consistent Ice resist. However, people don't do that anyway the majority of the time, so that isn't really a huge deal. The most consistent Ice resists are Cryogonal, Hariyama, and Miltank, and I'm not going to go into the flaws of those Pokemon. Another thing I want to note is that Vanilluxe doesn't even really need that much support. It really just needs hazard removal like any Stealth Rock weak Pokemon would need, and needs an extra Pokemon to help wear down its checks, which can pretty much be something like Passimian or Incineroar, two already splashable Pokemon.Overall, I think Vanilluxe is an overbearing Pokemon on the tier. Through Hail and its coverage, its a near unstoppable force, and doesn't take a lot of brain to use, which is why I believe