Holder says the administration’s review does cover more than just the telephone program. Holder pressed on Clapper testimony

A senior House Republican pressed Attorney General Eric Holder Tuesday to prosecute Director of National Intelligence James Clapper for perjury over testimony he gave to a Senate committee last year denying that U.S. intelligence agencies were gathering data on large numbers of Americans.

“What more do you need besides an admission from Gen. Clapper that he lied?” Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) asked, pointing to Clapper’s later remark that his denial was “the least untruthful” answer he could give.


During his appearance before a House Judicial Committee oversight hearing, Holder was noncommittal in his response, declining even to say whether Clapper’s testimony was being formally investigated by prosecutors.

“I’m really not in a position to confirm whether the department is investigating any particular matter,” the attorney general said.

“Is there any circumstance under which you would prosecute a member of the administration for lying under oath to Congress?” Sensenbrenner shot back.

“Sure,” Holder replied, “…if the person lied and all the other legal requirements” were met.

( QUIZ: How well do you know Eric Holder?)

Clapper’s defenders, including his office’s top lawyer, have said he misunderstood the question.

However, Sensenbrenner — who has endorsed legislation to end the National Security Agency’s authority to collect bulk data — argued that the Justice Department’s inaction on Clapper’s statement raises doubts about any legal reforms Congress might enact.

“Wouldn’t it be pointless for Congress to pass new laws limiting data collection if the Justice Department and other officials are at liberty to lie about enforcing them?” said Sensenbrenner, a co-author of the Patriot Act.

The questioning was one of several volleys Holder faced over NSA surveillance, which appears to have accomplished something rare for the Judiciary Committee: getting at least some Republicans and Democrats to see eye to eye.

The top Democrat on the panel, Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, complained that President Barack Obama and his aides had focused too much on the NSA’s bulk telephone data collection while overlooking other programs that involved the broad gathering of data. “To me, the problem is far bigger than that one narrow lens implies,” he said.

Holder said the administration’s review does cover more than just the telephone program and the legal provision authorizing it, known as Section 215.

“We are looking not only at 215 but other tools,” the attorney general said. “We have we have begun the process the president gave us in that regard we are not finished with the work that we are doing. Our hope would be to come to Congress with a proposal.”

Holder also rejected suggestions that Obama’s proposals to reform the telephone program are too timid.

“Section 215 as we know it is proposed to be ended by this administration. That’s a simple fact,” the attorney general said. “We would like to have put in its place a system in which the information is stored in a difference place, the information is acquired in a different way, and the amount of information that is actually held by the government is substantially reduced….The president’s proposal is unanimously supported by his national security team.”

Holder was also pressed by Republicans about what they said was the administration’s decisions to ignore provisions in various laws, including the federal prohibition on marijuana and a series of deadlines in the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.

However, the most heated exchange Tuesday came as Rep. Louie Gohmert questioned Holder about the Justice Department’s refusal to provide Congress with documents related to a prosecution of an Islamic charity based in Texas, the Holy Land Foundation. Gohmert said he’d repeatedly asked for records given to defense lawyers in the case, but that Justice Department officials had sent him a letter with a link to online documents and a suggestion that he check the court docket.

“I realize that contempt is not a big deal to our attorney general,” Gohmert said, referring to House votes in 2012 finding Holder in contempt for failing to turn over documents relating to the Justice Department’s response to the Operation fast and Furious gunrunning scandal.

“You don’t want to go there,” a clearly aggrieved Holder replied. “I believe that was inappropriate and unjust, but never think that was not a big deal to me.”

“There have been no indications that was not a big deal in your department because they’ve not been forthcoming in producing the documents that were the subject of contempt,” Gohmert replied.

“This was all about the gun lobby,” Holder scoffed, as the two men talked over each other.

“We’ve been trying to get to the bottom of Fast and Furious where people died,” Gohmert shot back. “I don’t need lectures from you about contempt.”

“I don’t need lectures from you either,” Holder replied.

The attorney general and Republicans on the committee did find common ground on one issue: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives’ use of mentally disabled individuals in so-called storefront sting operations.

“Sure, it concerns me,” Holder told Rep. Doug Collins (R-Ga.) “Mentally unstable? They would be tattooed? It’s absurd….It’s crazy,” the attorney general added, referring to allegations that ATF agents encouraged one young man to get a squid tattoo on his neck during such a sting.

Holder said earlier that the claims are under investigation by the Justice Department’s inspector general. “I’m greatly troubled by them,” he said.