HOWARD KURTZ: We got killed in that focus group. What happened to the media's reputation for at least trying to do what's right?



FRANK LUNTZ: It's happening everywhere. And the problem is partially with the consumers themselves. We don't watch news to inform us anymore. We watch news to affirm us. And so I asked people what news network do you watch? And I can guess with about 90 percent accuracy whether they voted for Barack Obama or Mitt Romney. And that's not good. We need a system. We need a situation where people are willing to be challenged, where their beliefs are willing to be challenged. Because the problem, Howie, is that now, we don't even agree on the same facts. We don't even agree on the same situations.



KURTZ: You are saying that the audience has gotten more partisan and has more partisan expectations of the news outlets they watch, read, or download.



LUNTZ: But it's affecting everybody.



KURTZ: Okay. But aren't people like you in part responsible for that? You came up with words and phrases to help elect Republicans and to make Democrats -- put them on the defensive. So are you part of the problem?



LUNTZ: Well, it's a simple question. Is the death tax an accurate description of being taxed when you die? Is it exploring for energy, what oil companies do? Is it opportunity in education in terms of vouchers for school choice? If you believe that the words I'm using aren't accurate, then you've got a legitimate point.



I believe that these are accurate descriptions. That's why the American people seem to support it.



Let's go back to the news media. It is at an all-time low. Television, newspapers, and the web. The last 40 years, we've never seen numbers like this. But so is public schools. So is our health care system. So is our trust in cops. Everything now has reached an all-time low. And my fear is we have no confidence in the institutions that run us --



KURTZ: I would agree.



LUNTZ: It's going to hurt us as a society.



KURTZ: But there are a lot of self-inflicted wounds ranging from sensationalism to in part what people see as excessive partisanship to scandals and fabrication. All of that. You also asked a question in one of these focus groups about the view of Fox News. Let's take a look at that.



(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)



LUNTZ: Who here trusts Fox? Who does not trust Fox?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really believe -- I know no one wants to hear this. Especially here. That Fox is just an extension of the Republican Party.



(END VIDEOTAPE)



LUNTZ: I wanted to do that. And I'm glad you showed it, because this network is willing to challenge itself. I've heard you challenge this network. It's important that we are reflective, that we think about what we say and what we do.



KURTZ: Would you or could you have asked that question when you were a contributor at MSNBC?



LUNTZ: I'm glad you asked that, because the answer is no. And in fact, I used to tell a joke that got me in all sorts of trouble. MSNBC, the only news network with more letters in its name than viewers. My God. I can't begin to tell you what happened to me after that.



KURTZ: That's a little ungenerous. Let me play one more clip from you on this question. Fox comes up, MSNBC comes up. And let's show the viewers that bit of sound.



(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When a major story breaks out, I go to Fox, then I go to MSNBC. I get disgusted. Go to CNN. And then go back to Fox because I know that's the truth.



(END VIDEOTAPE)



KURTZ: So you have some Fox fans -- in other words, you have people who think everything Fox says is right and everyone else is wrong. And then you have people who -- a woman said she thinks Fox is just a mouthpiece for the GOP.



LUNTZ: I was given one specific instruction when I joined this network, and that was that I had to have focus groups that look like America. African-Americans, Latinos, young, old, partisanship. That's why on Fox, you let people who don't like Fox News. And the other thing which I'll give credit to, in 2008, when I did focus groups with Obama and McCain, all three of my sessions during the debates had Obama winning, and Fox still devoted six, seven, eight minutes to those focus groups. They have nothing to fear. And I appreciate that about this network.



KURTZ: Half a minute before we go to break. How much of the dramatic decline in trust in news organizations do you think is self-inflicted?



LUNTZ: We expect the most. We have too high expectations. We're only human beings. And there's one or two people like you who hold the media accountable. The problem is there isn't enough accountability. There's not enough willingness to admit when you get it wrong. And in the end, there's not enough focus on covering the entire story, not just one side or another. So I give it significant responsibility. But in the end, it's our fault too, as viewers.