Overview

Metagame and Teambuilding with Breloom

Breloom in Practice

Here I'm going to go through a couple games where Breloom was used in UUPL to hopefully explain some if its issues in real game scenarios rather than just in the abstract. I can't be bothered to write about all 27 Breloom games but the ones I picked illustrate my point pretty well

Analysis Here you can see both the issues Breloom can have in Matchup and in practice. While Noivern is something of a niche pick for HT, you can easily imagine a Latias or Crobat in that slot and get the same feedback on what Breloom does. It can presumably get free turns by forcing out Rhyperior with Bullet Seed and Bewear / non BP locked Scizor with Spore, and with proper prediction definitely hurts both Altaria / Noivern slot with Rock Tomb. You can see the issues with it in practice though. Pohjis brings it in as HT sets up his rocks, and then has to decide whether to choose the right coverage move. Breloom often runs into scenarios where only 1 of the 3 moves it can feasibly use on a given turn will hit the switch. What I'm mainly saying here is that Breloom "50/50s" can often be 33/33/33s so to speak. He can try and Rock Tomb, Spore, or Bullet Seed. Alt takes the latter two, Scizor takes Tomb or Speed, Tenta eats Tomb. The fact that you have to hit these predictions with much more accuracy than something like a Choice Specs Primarina (where your options basically boil down to Water move or Fairy move in most matchups) adds to its inconsistency as a breaker. HT makes a good play keeping in his Alt on the second spore, leaving Pohjis unable to do much with his Breloom. Yes Pohjis could have Rock Tombed there (if he carried it, not a guarantee), but that choice opens up different counterplay in Tenta / Scizor (and also doesn't cover the Rhyperior Ice Punch.) Breloom doesn't get any free switch ins for the rest of the game until the result has mostly been decided. Even compared to Serperior, its bulk is notably worse and the secondary Fighting-type more hinders it than helps it in terms of trying to generate its own switchins.

Analysis In this game Breloom does break holes in Lax's team, but you have to see the insane amounts of risks Punny takes so it does that. He has to stay in on not one but two checks that would OHKO it in order to keep clicking Facade. A misprediction there loses him his main breaker and makes the matchup much more tough. He also was fortunate to get the first turn Knock Off on Gliscor, which let Breloom threaten Lax's team even more than it should have.

Analysis This game shows how even one Breloom check can be enough to stop it. Once BlackOblivion chooses his Spore sack, Arifeen's PHeal Breloom can't really do anything to muscle past Togekiss. Yes that Spore is valuable, but its not game ending and you can see BO stay in control with Togekiss despite having to use his sacs earlier than Arifeen did, forcing the ditto at the end which he came out on top of. Rock Tomb Breloom could have been more dangerous here, but this also highlights another of Breloom's problems. It has to sacrifice matchups in order to use all of its coverage options, and getting the wrong one neuters it heavily (this is compared to something like Buzzwole whose standard sets pressured far more of the top metagame than Breloom's did.)

TLDR

(understandable i'm a giant fucking nerd)

Heya, gonna attempt to clarify some of DNB's points since they haven't been as prevalent in the threads leading up to 7.1. Will be using a lot of UUPL replays to show why Breloom struggles to swing matches as much as it looks like it should on paper.Right off the bat, we can see Breloom struggling to perform consistently in the higher levels of play. It's at #12 usage in UUPL overall, which shows that it is definitely a top threat, but not as dominating as the likes of Latias or Scizor. However it has a poor 33% winrate, suggesting that either the current meta handles it relatively well, or Breloom is inconsistent in performing its role. Looking through some tour games we can see how it can not do as well as one might expect. I watched almost every UUPL game with a Breloom in it, I would suggest people do the same before they entrench themselves in one camp or the other.I am mostly referencing the defensive Gliscors seen on Stall and sometimes Balance, but regular Gliscors with Facade / Ice Fang aren't bait either. Defensive Celebi and Doublade are hard Counters, Breloom will have no chance of breaking through them by itself bar hax. Offensive Celebi still is a great chance, and the teams its on will not give Breloom nearly as many free turns as those Defensive Celebi would be on. Altaria has to find time to Mega Safely (which it can do on non-Rock Tomb Loom), but after that is one of the most consistent answers we have. These Pokemon all have seen usage on Stall and Balance teams to prevent them from being run over by Breloom to good success. Breloom can have utility vs stall, but it needs support to do this. Altaria and Gliscor aren't super bothered by Pursuit either, one of the things I think gives Stall the breathing room it needs.All of these Pokemon can safely come in on multiple Breloom moves, with most of them fearing Rock Tomb. Togekiss and Chandelure can even run Sleep Talk on Choice sets to compress your need for a sleep answer, while Kommo-o has Overcoat to nullify spore. These Pokemon can be found on a wide range of playstyles and you can feel generally comfortable using them as your main answer for Breloom with proper scouting and a soft check / RKer or two to support them.This section basically boils down to Mach Punch resists that OHKO Breloom, with some of them being able to come in more easily than others (Gengar on Poison Heal, Lati on non high roll Bullet Seed, Tsar on Spore). These will all outspeed and kill it, really showing the amount of Mach Punch resists we have that can also serve as soft checks if you lose your main one to Sleep. Even if we aren't considering the Lures and Niche Options I go into detail about below, I think what I've listed so far shows a decent amount of counterplay to Breloom and how it has to nail predictions in order to really go to work against them.Pursuit is often maligned as one of the main things helping push Breloom into broken territory, but in practice I don't really think its as effective of a strategy vs every build as one would think. Looking at the main answers i've established above, Celebi, Chandelure, Latias, Starmie and Gengar are bothered heavily by Pursuit, with Crobat and Molt definitely not appreciating it either. That still leaves about half of those checks relatively unbothered by it. Pursuit users can be taken advatange of as well. Muk is one of the easiest Pokemon to punish in the tier, Scizor generally has to lock into Pursuit to trap something, same with Krookodile. Maero is definitely the most flexible of these, but it also is a weaker trapper than the rest of its brethren. I think the ban argument that Breloom + pursuit makes it unhealthy is pretty lazy and doesn't really explore all the routes of counterplay that exist.You can also take advantage of Loom especially with Water-types that it tries to use for free turns. Offensive Swamperts have seen a slight uptick in usage, with CB doing hefty damage even on stab or straight up killing with Ice Punch, and Icium Z which originally hit Lati also smacks Loom. Sub Calm Mind Ice Beam Suicune runs through teams that use things like Poison Heal Breloom as their check. Never mind the fact that it sometimes has to switch directly into Scald on Waters which is frustrating for non Poison Heal sets.When talking about teambuilding issues, I don't see people mention the more niche Pokemon that can really help in the Breloom matchup. Talonflame and Decidueye can be good picks on Offense, Vileplume and Chesnaught have their place on bulkier squads. I think you can definitely not feel forced to use the "meta" picks all the time and feel you're sacrificing your Breloom matchup to an unhealthy amount. There's room for creativity and innovation even with the constraints Breloom places, especially compared to much more constraining things like Scizor.Spore is often one of the main things that people tout as making Breloom unhealthy, and I do think there is some credence to that argument. Sleep is tricky to play around, and can often require relatively unorthodox thinking when coming from an offensive powerhouse like Breloom compared to the likes of Amoonguss. However, many of its checks are immune to Spore or can run Sleep Talk feasibly on some sets. I've seen some people view Sleep Talk being used as evidence toward's Breloom's unhealthiness, but I would argue its a natural metagame trend that started with Amoonguss and was accelerated with Breloom. It's possible my background in gen 5 makes be biased here since Sleep was much more deadly in that metagame and was viewed as something to account for in teambuilding more often. What seems like an unfair mechanic to some newer players is just a different threat to build for in my eyes, and I recognize my bias and agree that Spore is probably the most unhealthy thing about Breloom. However, it still has the inconsistency in 1 turn wakeups and many immunities to build around.Breloom's a classic High Risk, High Reward Pokemon. It can cause huge problems when you hit predictions or roll 5 hits with Bullet Seed / 3 Turn Spores, and runs into matchups where its risks are mitigated because your opponent has a lot of Pokemon it safely can sleep on, or threatens out with Mach Punch. Even with counters like Doublade, as seen in this Semis match between Sacri and HT , it can find ways to break through them when the counter is not provided adequate support. Despite these boons, it has been incredibly inconsistent in higher level play and is so hard to switch in safely on a large portion of the tier. Top metagame threats do require lots of support to build for, this is not a trait exclusive to Breloom. It's inconsistencies and shortcomings keep me firmly in thecamp.Looking forward to more discussion, keep it civil and bring logic to your arguments.