TheoMikkelsen Profile Joined June 2013 Denmark 196 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-12 08:18:37 #1



I think there is a serious problem with the new map pool and tournaments in starcraft 2 for the next 2 months or so that has to be addressed immediately.



I have been trying to message various tournament organizers and as far as I have understood, some has chosen to completely implement the new #dreampool map pool, others still for the time being stick with the old map pool, and there is also discussion about mixing new and old maps. Some of these tournaments are already ongoing for the next up to four weeks, mostly team leagues.



Now, I don´t have a exact overview about which maps are used or not since the new map pool only has been in play for a few days, but I would really like to start a discussion about what you guys think should be done for especially tournament play.



I will try my best to avoid describing the exact issues I have, as a protoss player, with the new map pool, but I think I can start by just presenting the more obvious and all-around objective issues which definitively shows that the new map pool is not suited for two months of tournament/professional play in starcraft 2.



First and foremost, the current metalopolis/xelnaga caverns and debatably shakuras plateau has designs that will not, most likely, be used in the new WCS tournament format. This is a problem for players who wish to practice for the next WCS.



The second thing is that ongoing tournaments still use the old map pool and it will be hard to either mix or decide which maps that they should use. Since tournaments has always used the ladder as the main standard, it´s now up to organizers to decide whether they will use the maps or not. Either way, this is another problem for practice at professional level.



It is a problem if players has to practice for more than the standard 7 map format, and the new maps with possible major imbalances in some of the matchups makes the veto system inlegitimate and makes it harder for races to perform and earn prizes and trophys in the next two month´s worth of cups. This especially includes tournaments which has pre-round-of-16 non-veto bo1 systems that allows maps favoring a race in a specific matchup be too decicisive.



Now, personally I think there should be at least a partial revoke of the current ladder map pool as I think we have had already had our cup of fun from this season´s dream pool.



Possible solutions:



1. We made small adjustments to existing maps in the map pool to promote professional play as we know it and closer to the atmosphere that we´re used to in order to prepare for ongoing tournaments and next WCS. This includes making natural smaller (or adding rocks in currect accessible places) and perhaps adjusting main-cliff entrances for blink-stalker or reaper play. (Mostly concerned about shakuras plateau, xelnaga caverns and metalopolis here.)



2. We add other classic maps which suits current goals for professional play. This could for instance be korhal compound, polar night and belshir vestige. (and the GSL beach map i´m sure the community would like.)



3. We go back to the previous map pool



4. We add in new maps from teamliquid and other contests.



Of course, these 4 solutions could apply for ladder, most preferebly, but I think adding a mix of the current map pool and 3 other maps (to use the 3 veto system when pracitcing on ladder) to form a #propool that would make practice closer to our goals and the atmosphere that suits the upcoming and ongoing tournaments and wcs.



I have added 3 maps with "PTE" at the end - for example "Shakuras Plateau PTE" with example changes of how maps can be balanced for more professional play. PTE meaning Phase Tournament Edition. Metalopolis was hard to change as the terrain changes would be too severe so holes in the ground had to be made. But I doubt these changes are doable and I think revoking map pool is optimal.



These are my suggestions:



Shakuras Plateau:



- Wider natural ramp and access to 4th and 5th vertical base areas. "Turtle strategies" will not be promoted due to the rush distance and easy drop/terrain abuse with blink, air units and colossus.



http://gyazo.com/0b6b6afee9f4d2f455dd49633b02be40



Metalopolis:



Examples:

http://gyazo.com/8d6c0c7c93510e3e1b3e6abbc16cfb47

http://gyazo.com/202244e8f6f58a3fe2ff3022a338dda6

http://gyazo.com/e909559e5803310dceaf48b93be463e6



- Cliff to promote easier wallings. I doubt this map is good without severe changes however.



Xelnaga Caverns:



http://gyazo.com/e30b46f8bd3c2ab23aa69680c48df4e6



- Foxtrot-style rocks around the base to keep possibility for natural but early-game walloffs will be much easier.



I could suggest changes to cloud kingdom as well but I am not sure how blink-friendly this map actually is. I could miss an additional two attack paths on daybreak like a 2-forcefield wide valley around and below the main and "6th and 7th" offensive/middle bases on high ground. Hello.I think there is a serious problem with the new map pool and tournaments in starcraft 2 for the next 2 months or so that has to be addressed immediately.I have been trying to message various tournament organizers and as far as I have understood, some has chosen to completely implement the new #dreampool map pool, others still for the time being stick with the old map pool, and there is also discussion about mixing new and old maps. Some of these tournaments are already ongoing for the next up to four weeks, mostly team leagues.Now, I don´t have a exact overview about which maps are used or not since the new map pool only has been in play for a few days, but I would really like to start a discussion about what you guys think should be done for especially tournament play.I will try my best to avoid describing the exact issues I have, as a protoss player, with the new map pool, but I think I can start by just presenting the more obvious and all-around objective issues which definitively shows that the new map pool is not suited for two months of tournament/professional play in starcraft 2.First and foremost, the current metalopolis/xelnaga caverns and debatably shakuras plateau has designs that will not, most likely, be used in the new WCS tournament format. This is a problem for players who wish to practice for the next WCS.The second thing is that ongoing tournaments still use the old map pool and it will be hard to either mix or decide which maps that they should use. Since tournaments has always used the ladder as the main standard, it´s now up to organizers to decide whether they will use the maps or not. Either way, this is another problem for practice at professional level.It is a problem if players has to practice for more than the standard 7 map format, and the new maps with possible major imbalances in some of the matchups makes the veto system inlegitimate and makes it harder for races to perform and earn prizes and trophys in the next two month´s worth of cups. This especially includes tournaments which has pre-round-of-16 non-veto bo1 systems that allows maps favoring a race in a specific matchup be too decicisive.Now, personally I think there should be at least a partial revoke of the current ladder map pool as I think we have had already had our cup of fun from this season´s dream pool.Possible solutions:1. We made small adjustments to existing maps in the map pool to promote professional play as we know it and closer to the atmosphere that we´re used to in order to prepare for ongoing tournaments and next WCS. This includes making natural smaller (or adding rocks in currect accessible places) and perhaps adjusting main-cliff entrances for blink-stalker or reaper play. (Mostly concerned about shakuras plateau, xelnaga caverns and metalopolis here.)2. We add other classic maps which suits current goals for professional play. This could for instance be korhal compound, polar night and belshir vestige. (and the GSL beach map i´m sure the community would like.)3. We go back to the previous map pool4. We add in new maps from teamliquid and other contests.Of course, these 4 solutions could apply for ladder, most preferebly, but I think adding a mix of the current map pool and 3 other maps (to use the 3 veto system when pracitcing on ladder) to form a #propool that would make practice closer to our goals and the atmosphere that suits the upcoming and ongoing tournaments and wcs.I have added 3 maps with "PTE" at the end - for example "Shakuras Plateau PTE" with example changes of how maps can be balanced for more professional play. PTE meaning Phase Tournament Edition. Metalopolis was hard to change as the terrain changes would be too severe so holes in the ground had to be made. But I doubt these changes are doable and I think revoking map pool is optimal.These are my suggestions:Shakuras Plateau:- Wider natural ramp and access to 4th and 5th vertical base areas. "Turtle strategies" will not be promoted due to the rush distance and easy drop/terrain abuse with blink, air units and colossus.Metalopolis:Examples:- Cliff to promote easier wallings. I doubt this map is good without severe changes however.Xelnaga Caverns:- Foxtrot-style rocks around the base to keep possibility for natural but early-game walloffs will be much easier.I could suggest changes to cloud kingdom as well but I am not sure how blink-friendly this map actually is. I could miss an additional two attack paths on daybreak like a 2-forcefield wide valley around and below the main and "6th and 7th" offensive/middle bases on high ground. Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill

MstrJinbo Profile Joined March 2011 United States 1249 Posts #2 Whatever maps these leagues use this season is their own prerogative. And I don't see a problem with that. Tournament organizers can make whatever changes they want independent on what happens on the ladder.

cloneHoBBiT Profile Joined February 2011 Denmark 39 Posts #3 It's just a problem for tournament organizers that the ladder mappool are made of these maps, because they are not worth playing as competetive maps. Now players have to play custom games all day long on the old mappool, so they can prepare for the team leagues that are still going on (RSTL, SC2ITL, Cascade 1xbet), because they are still using the old mappool and these team leagues will first be over in 1 month.

This takes longer time for players to find partners to practice with and it would be easier just to use the "finding match on ladder".





TheoMikkelsen Profile Joined June 2013 Denmark 196 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-12 01:16:50 #4 On November 12 2014 09:48 MstrJinbo wrote:

Whatever maps these leagues use this season is their own prerogative. And I don't see a problem with that. Tournament organizers can make whatever changes they want independent on what happens on the ladder.



They can, and technically all organizers including proleague could replace the maps with monobattles. This is an exaggeration, but it should proove my point. I don´t see why we should make a negative development with map pool choice when there is more obvious and correct choices.



They can, and technically all organizers including proleague could replace the maps with monobattles. This is an exaggeration, but it should proove my point. I don´t see why we should make a negative development with map pool choice when there is more obvious and correct choices. On November 12 2014 10:12 cloneHoBBiT wrote:

It's just a problem for tournament organizers that the ladder mappool are made of these maps, because they are not worth playing as competetive maps. Now players have to play custom games all day long on the old mappool, so they can prepare for the team leagues that are still going on (RSTL, SC2ITL, Cascade 1xbet), because they are still using the old mappool and these team leagues will first be over in 1 month.

This takes longer time for players to find partners to practice with and it would be easier just to use the "finding match on ladder".







This is absolutely correct and the core problem I wish to resolve. Thanks for the insight. This is absolutely correct and the core problem I wish to resolve. Thanks for the insight. Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill

SC2Towelie Profile Joined July 2014 United States 561 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-12 01:42:23 #5 Tournaments that aren't related to WCS can use whatever maps they want... there have been plenty of times where tournaments such as Dreamhack/IEM/Homestory Cup/GSL/Proleague have used maps that weren't in the current ladder map pool. It's never been an issue and I don't see why it would be now. As long as they announce the maps before the tournament, players should have plenty of time to practice on them. Don't forget to bring a towel! (Towelie.635)

TheoMikkelsen Profile Joined June 2013 Denmark 196 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-12 01:56:48 #6 On November 12 2014 10:40 SC2Towelie wrote:

Tournaments that aren't related to WCS can use whatever maps they want... there have been plenty of times where tournaments such as Dreamhack/IEM/Homestory Cup/GSL/Proleague have used maps that weren't in the current ladder map pool. It's never been an issue and I don't see why it would be now. As long as they announce the maps before the tournament, players should have plenty of time to practice on them.



There is a huge difference in seeing, occasionally, 1-2 new maps in a tournament which by the way mostly are based around map design we are familiar with OR the maps used are somehow assosiated in a "fun" tournament which only lasts for a few days and that most other pro players, if willing, can ignore and play other tournaments.



This case is very stretched since it not only affects ladder, it potentially affects every single cup/tournament which presents opportunity for practice and prizes. This also include possible imbalances favoring a specific race.



Also, during the whole heart of the swarm there has not been a single period where unsuitable maps could dominate the professional tournament and practice scene like we currently see. I have to completely disagree. There is a huge difference in seeing, occasionally, 1-2 new maps in a tournament which by the way mostly are based around map design we are familiar with OR the maps used are somehow assosiated in a "fun" tournament which only lasts for a few days and that most other pro players, if willing, can ignore and play other tournaments.This case is very stretched since it not only affects ladder, it potentially affects every single cup/tournament which presents opportunity for practice and prizes. This also include possible imbalances favoring a specific race.Also, during the whole heart of the swarm there has not been a single period where unsuitable maps could dominate the professional tournament and practice scene like we currently see. I have to completely disagree. Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill

growlizing Profile Joined February 2011 Norway 121 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-12 18:54:33 #7 What in the fuck did they do to the map pool?!



These are oooold maps that I bet every single player is damn sick and tired of. I hate all of them with a passion for how long they were already in the map pool.



I am sooo tired of these maps, as there isn't that much shifting the map pool, but not a even a single new map?



Some of these (all?) were even the the pool for over a year!



On a more serious note, how can I now find games?

SC2Towelie Profile Joined July 2014 United States 561 Posts #8 On November 13 2014 03:51 growlizing wrote:

What in the fuck did they do to the map pool?!



These are oooold maps that I bet every single player is damn sick and tired of. I hate all of them with a passion for how long they were already in the map pool.



I am sooo tired of these maps, as there isn't that much shifting the map pool, but not a even a single new map?



Some of these (all?) were even the the pool for over a year!



On a more serious note, how can I now find games?



I can't tell if your whole post is sarcasm or if you're actually serious... These maps have been announced for awhile now, and the community voted on them to decide while ones would actually be in the pool... I can't tell if your whole post is sarcasm or if you're actually serious... These maps have been announced for awhile now, and the community voted on them to decide while ones would actually be in the pool... Don't forget to bring a towel! (Towelie.635)

SC2Toastie Profile Blog Joined October 2013 Netherlands 5721 Posts #9 The Shakuras solution has faster rotation of the offensive player if you want to make the third more viable that is nopt the way to go.



XNC becomes a very choked map with all it's original traits removed.



Metal still can't take a third decently. Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!

SC2Toastie Profile Blog Joined October 2013 Netherlands 5721 Posts #10 On November 13 2014 04:00 SC2Towelie wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 13 2014 03:51 growlizing wrote:

What in the fuck did they do to the map pool?!



These are oooold maps that I bet every single player is damn sick and tired of. I hate all of them with a passion for how long they were already in the map pool.



I am sooo tired of these maps, as there isn't that much shifting the map pool, but not a even a single new map?



Some of these (all?) were even the the pool for over a year!



On a more serious note, how can I now find games?



I can't tell if your whole post is sarcasm or if you're actually serious... These maps have been announced for awhile now, and the community voted on them to decide while ones would actually be in the pool... I can't tell if your whole post is sarcasm or if you're actually serious... These maps have been announced for awhile now, and the community voted on them to decide while ones would actually be in the pool...

Yes, and the dreampool is so much fun with all these reddit/bnet monkeys coming to show their expertise in cheesy ********* Yes, and the dreampool is so much fun with all these reddit/bnet monkeys coming to show their expertise in cheesy ********* Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!

Dingodile Profile Joined December 2011 4035 Posts #11 I disagree that we should go back to old mappool. I prefer the one mappool before + Nimbus. Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky

TheoMikkelsen Profile Joined June 2013 Denmark 196 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-12 19:12:23 #12 On November 13 2014 04:05 SC2Toastie wrote:

The Shakuras solution has faster rotation of the offensive player if you want to make the third more viable that is nopt the way to go.



XNC becomes a very choked map with all it's original traits removed.



Metal still can't take a third decently.



I personally think the shakuras solution is the best one. I think it´s hard to fix metalopolis and xelnaga without extreme changes to the terrain, but adding destructible rocks and a backdoor path between vertical bases on shakuras is exactly the perfect solution to the map design that blizzard originally intended.



I believe there is a version where shakuras actually has backdoor rocks into the main from the top and bottom base.



I don´t think there is any advantages to the offensive player to rotate between 3rd and natural when the offensive player does not have high-ground vision. Furthermore, how is that any different on say ohana or even maps like foxtrot between the non-gold and natural on top left and bottom right spawns?



I mean, "rotation speed" between nat and 3rds shouldn´t be the issue.



By as mentioned, I think replacing the maps is the best option, but simple changes like I have shown in examples that took me at best 20 minutes to do is also possible. Just like deadalous point was changed after it was realized it was bad for protoss players.



I personally think the shakuras solution is the best one. I think it´s hard to fix metalopolis and xelnaga without extreme changes to the terrain, but adding destructible rocks and a backdoor path between vertical bases on shakuras is exactly the perfect solution to the map design that blizzard originally intended.I believe there is a version where shakuras actually has backdoor rocks into the main from the top and bottom base.I don´t think there is any advantages to the offensive player to rotate between 3rd and natural when the offensive player does not have high-ground vision. Furthermore, how is that any different on say ohana or even maps like foxtrot between the non-gold and natural on top left and bottom right spawns?I mean, "rotation speed" between nat and 3rds shouldn´t be the issue.By as mentioned, I think replacing the maps is the best option, but simple changes like I have shown in examples that took me at best 20 minutes to do is also possible. Just like deadalous point was changed after it was realized it was bad for protoss players. On November 13 2014 04:09 Dingodile wrote:

I disagree that we should go back to old mappool. I prefer the one mappool before + Nimbus.





Personally any map that does not involve major changes to promote extremely different earlygame is fine, which also makes me think nimbus if fine despite the spawn advantage issues. Personally any map that does not involve major changes to promote extremely different earlygame is fine, which also makes me think nimbus if fine despite the spawn advantage issues. Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill