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NewbieActivity: 1Merit: 0 Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error September 02, 2011, 02:08:54 PM

Last edit: September 02, 2011, 02:19:13 PM by BitcoinPool #1





Quote

[04:50] <phantomcircuit> i strongly suggest you send it back

[04:50] <@Geebus> Wait, you sent him 511 BTC?

[04:51] <phantomcircuit> a flaw in our withdrawal script resulted in 512 1 btc payments

[04:51] <@BenDavis> How was your tea this morning?

[04:51] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, i dont drink tea

[04:51] <wtfmate1> I WANT 511 BITCOINS!!

[04:51] <@BenDavis> me too!!!

[04:51] <wtfmate1> send me bitcoins

[04:52] <@Geebus> So... you sent it? ...like, initiated a transaction to him?

[04:52] <wtfmate1> how do I get 511 bitcoins??

[04:52] <@Geebus> Or did he steal them?

[04:52] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, just an fyi spending funds which were erroneously sent to you is legally the same as simple theft

[04:52] <phantomcircuit> so congratulations you've committed a class b felony

[04:52] <@BenDavis> I beg to differ Patrick

[04:52] <@BenDavis> But I don't know what you are talking about!

[04:53] <@BenDavis> Feel free to send me some BTC if you want.

[04:53] <phantomcircuit> stop lying

[04:53] <phantomcircuit> i know who you are

[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.

[04:53] <wtfmate1> what did i miss out on? oh man...i want some free bitcoins

[04:53] <@BenDavis> I could really use some free BTC too!

[04:53] <wtfmate1> can you send me free bitcoin patrick? I will be your BFF

[04:53] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, it's irrelevant he sold them immediately thus locking in the valuation at > 1k usd

[04:53] <@Geebus> I'll send you a few bitcents wtfmate1...

[04:53] <phantomcircuit> which makes it a serious felony

[04:53] <wtfmate1> not if you give them to me

[04:53] <@Geebus> They had 0 value at the time you transferred them

[04:53] <wtfmate1>

[04:54] <@BenDavis> Patrick Strateman, I have no clue what you are talking about.

[04:54] <@BenDavis> I don't even mine for coins.

[04:54] <@Geebus> Once ownership (i.e. posession) changes, the value he sells them at is irrelevant.

[04:54] <phantomcircuit> yeah cool you have my name

[04:54] <phantomcircuit> amazing

[04:54] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, i was trying to go about this reasonably

[04:54] <@Geebus> Bitcoin is a one-way system. Once you send them, you release ownership.

[04:55] <phantomcircuit> clearly you have no intention of doing so

[04:55] <@BenDavis> I have no clue what you are talking about!

[04:55] <@Geebus> Had he stolen your wallet.dat or something, that would be different.

[04:55] <@BenDavis> I will take some free BTC tho. How do I do that?

[04:55] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, now you're just lying

[04:55] <@BenDavis> Maybe Donald can rub your back for you?

[04:55] <@BenDavis> Make you feel better?

[04:55] <@BenDavis> Or Amir can get you some tea?

[04:56] <@BenDavis> Hey I got a better idea. Since you know where I am ... why don't you come meet me personally?

[04:56] <phantomcircuit> oh i will

[04:56] <@BenDavis> Sweet! I can't wait to meet you!

[04:56] <phantomcircuit> ill tell your kids how daddy is a thief

[04:57] <phantomcircuit> all about how daddy likes to take things that aren't his

[04:57] <@Geebus> Objection your Honor... Plaintiff is suggesting the act of receiving a transfer initiated by themselves makes the defendant a "theif."

[04:57] <@Geebus> Receiving is a very different thing than taking.

[04:57] <@Geebus> Taking implies force.

[04:57] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, no that alone would not, acting in bad faith once it was clear they were not his

[04:57] <phantomcircuit> however does

[04:57] <@BenDavis> Yeah, I do not believe I took anything.

[04:58] <@BenDavis> Can you tell me how I took anything?

[04:58] <@BenDavis> lmfao

[04:58] <@Geebus> Bad faith is a moral or ethical dilemma, not a legal matter.

[04:58] <phantomcircuit> sigh

[04:58] <@BenDavis> Patrick, so how is the weather in Europe today?

[04:58] <wtfmate1> sounds like phantomcircuit screwed up and set free bitcoins?? did I get this right??

[04:58] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, so what you're saying is that you're refusing to act amicably to resolve this

[04:58] <@Geebus> If it's any consolation, I'm sure he'll go to hell.

[04:58] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, yes

[04:58] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, shitty

[04:58] <wtfmate1> cool, send me some then

[04:59] <wtfmate1>

[04:59] <wtfmate1> 1J5PZukyLapvbLUUjhvV3MCyQWg3e6pRW8

[04:59] <phantomcircuit> to be clear they were not free

[04:59] <wtfmate1> they are if you send them to me

[04:59] <wtfmate1>

[04:59] <@BenDavis> Can you send that address some BTC?

[05:00] <@Geebus> did you have a prearranged contract negotiating an exchange of goods or services for the BTC?

[05:00] <@Geebus> ...otherwise, they were free.

[05:00] <@BenDavis> So when are you going to fly over here from Europe and meet me?

[05:01] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, in about a month ill be there anyways

[05:01] <@BenDavis> Sweet bro.

[05:01] <@BenDavis> Can't wait to shake your hand.

[05:01] <@Geebus> Well, I can't say "free"... I'm sure you had to pay some tx fees on a 511 btc transfer...

[05:01] <phantomcircuit> yeah im sure you'll be super excited when they put you in cuffs!

[05:01] <@BenDavis> Oh I can't wait man!

[05:01] <@Geebus> Who is "they

[05:01] <@Geebus> ?

[05:01] <phantomcircuit> the police

[05:01] <@BenDavis> Some secret Euro police team that governs BTC lmfao

[05:02] <phantomcircuit> he committed a serious crime

[05:02] <@Geebus> Like, state police?

[05:02] <wtfmate1> if he did not steal them, then will never hear from the police.

[05:02] <@BenDavis> Really? What crime?

[05:02] <@BenDavis> I think you just fucked up

[05:02] <@BenDavis> and are pissed

[05:02] <@BenDavis> and trying to scare me

[05:02] <@BenDavis> but I tell you this

[05:02] <@BenDavis> I am no punk

[05:02] <wtfmate1> sounds like you messed up phantomcircuit. what went wrong?

[05:02] <@BenDavis> so you fucked up bro!

[05:02] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, i messed up

[05:02] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, yeha i can see that

[05:02] <wtfmate1> how?

[05:02] <@Geebus> ...because, as an international matter, no state jurisdiction would be capable of taking the case, nor would you be able to file a police report or charges against him without being a legal resident of the US, or without having the legal representation of an embassy residing therein.

[05:02] <wtfmate1> how do you accidently send 511 btc?

[05:03] <@BenDavis> My question is ... what the fuck were you doing when you sent that on accidemt?

[05:03] <@BenDavis> What on earth were you doing lol

[05:03] <@BenDavis> Trying to figure out a way to fuck someone over and it bit you in the ass?

[05:03] <phantomcircuit> it's automated there was a bug

[05:03] <@BenDavis> woops, get a new coder

[05:03] <@BenDavis> fire Amir

[05:03] <@BenDavis> Kinda looks like you should be mad at Amir

[05:04] <wtfmate1> how do you have 511 btc though?

[05:04] <@Geebus> I'll admit, my own code fuck ups on this pool have cost me a few hundred bitcoins... not a single one that I got back.

[05:04] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, did you know who you sent it to?

[05:04] <@Geebus> Of course I did.

[05:04] <Optonic> Geebus: hah! you got a single one back

[05:05] <@Geebus> Optonic: Thats right, lol

[05:05] <@Geebus> Optonic: Thanks for reminding me. I appreciate it.

[05:05] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, so i see you dont think youv'e committed a crime

[05:05] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit, how did you have 511 btc? Did you mine them?

[05:05] <phantomcircuit> lets say i was to buy something online and i live next to you

[05:05] <phantomcircuit> but i mess up

[05:05] <phantomcircuit> and i send it to you

[05:05] <phantomcircuit> is this now yours?

[05:05] <phantomcircuit> (hint the answer is no)

[05:05] <@BenDavis> How did you get 511 BTC ?

[05:06] <phantomcircuit> i think you know

[05:06] <@BenDavis> no i dont

[05:06] <phantomcircuit> i think you do

[05:06] <@BenDavis> surecock

[05:06] <@BenDavis> answer the question

[05:06] <phantomcircuit> obviously it's other peoples

[05:07] <wtfmate1> do you run a pool?

[05:08] <phantomcircuit> no an exchange

[05:08] <wtfmate1> which one?

[05:08] <wtfmate1> tradehill or gox?

[05:08] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, so to recap, you dont believe you are legally obliged to return the funds, you will not return the funds, you dont even feel bad about keeping them?

[05:08] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, neither

[05:09] <wtfmate1> which one then?

[05:09] <phantomcircuit> intersango.com

[05:10] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, you know we've accidentally sent people funds in the past and you've the only person who has ever refused to send them back

[05:10] <@Geebus> I'm not asking to be defensive of him, but out of curiosity. What legal basis is there for returning something that was sent to you without any prevocation?

[05:10] <@Geebus> I'd personally like to know for some of my own errors I've tried to legally pursue in the past, as I've been told that there is none.

[05:11] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, it depends on whether you could reasonably return the goods, if you find $5 on the sidewalk you cant be reasonably expected to figure out whose $5 it was, but if the bank (or anybody else) sends you money for no reason you are obliged to send it back

[05:11] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, i believe this is a pretty clear case of the latter

[05:11] <wtfmate1> phontomcircuit, so you have about 155 btc worth of trades right now on your exchange?

[05:12] <@Geebus> But you're not a registered financial institution are you? I had some problems with the Australian Federal Police in regard to a similar situation.

[05:12] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, we just migrated to a new version, unfortunately the openid login system we were using in the past cannot be trivially migrated, so most of our users (and trades) are not yet being displayed

[05:13] <wtfmate1> and your code messed up and sent 511 btc to BenDavis?

[05:13] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, the laws on this vary by country, but in the us it is very clear that if you receive something out of the blue without expecting it you have no duty to try and return it but you do have a duty to not spend it

[05:13] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, the irony here being that it did so in an attempt to be robust

[05:13] <Optonic> code messing up itself is an interesting matter btw

[05:13] <@Geebus> So, you can keep it, but not spend it?

[05:14] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, you have an obligation to return it if the original sender makes it clear it was a mistake

[05:14] <phantomcircuit> which i believe i have

[05:14] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: that sucks

[05:14] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, seriously class b felony

[05:15] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, fuck the felony part

[05:15] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, just dont be a dick

[05:15] <phantomcircuit> it's not even our bitcoins

[05:16] <phantomcircuit> it's not like we're some fucking huge bank or something

[05:16] <Optonic> I already see a headline "blabla exchange loses 511 btc on accident" - I don't think users will like this. keep it under the carpet, dude.

[05:16] <@Geebus> I'm googling it, but I can't seem to find any law regarding the accidental transfer of ownership

[05:17] <@Geebus> In the US or any other country for that matter.

[05:18] <phantomcircuit> Geebus,

[05:18] <phantomcircuit> A person commits theft when, with intent to deprive another of property or to appropriate property to the person or to a third person, the person:

[05:18] <phantomcircuit> (1) Takes, appropriates, obtains or withholds such property from an owner thereof;

[05:19] <phantomcircuit> it is not his property

[05:19] <phantomcircuit> it is our property

[05:19] <phantomcircuit> he is merely in possession of it

[05:19] <@BenDavis> lmfao

[05:19] <@BenDavis> possession is 9\10ths the law they say

[05:19] <@Geebus> Here is the description of a transaction according to the Bitcoin FAQ: "Eve cannot change who the coins belong to by replacing Bobs public key with her public key, because Alice signed the transfer to Bob using her private key, declaring that the coins which belonged to her now belong to Bob, and Alice's private key is kept secret from Eve. So if Charley accepts that the original coin was in the hands of Alice he will also accep

[05:19] <@Geebus> It clearly defines a transfer of ownership.

[05:20] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, the other 1/10th is proof that it was a mistaken payment

[05:20] <wtfmate1> wait, "05:15] <phantomcircuit> it's not even our bitcoins" .......... so if you don't own them, and you sent them to him on accident, it's still not "your" property. You just contradicted yourself.

[05:20] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, we act as agent for other people

[05:20] <@BenDavis> Good point there ... you don't even own them. They are NOT yours. So I guess all those poor souls who you LOST their money, are going to have to file the police report.

[05:20] <@BenDavis> Because they are NOT yours.

[05:21] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, look forget whether it's illegal or

[05:21] <phantomcircuit> not

[05:21] <@Geebus> IRC is logged dude, I wouldn't have come in here and said that.

[05:21] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: Are you solvent now?

[05:21] <phantomcircuit> do you really want to be that guy with your name and all your info out there saying you stole 511 BTC?

[05:21] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, yes

[05:21] <@BenDavis> oh believe me... I am copying this entire discussion

[05:21] <@Geebus> Technically, you threathened him physically, which *IS* against US federal law

[05:21] <wtfmate1> OUT OF BUSINESS?

[05:21] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, i never threatened him

[05:21] <phantomcircuit> ever

[05:22] <@BenDavis> You are just mad because your Exchange is going to go OUT OF BUSINESS now ... and you are trying desperately to get your BTC back

[05:22] <phantomcircuit> i said id some see him

[05:22] <phantomcircuit> come*

[05:22] <@Geebus> <phantomcircuit> i see you really like your guns [04:47] <phantomcircuit> if you want to keep them i suggest working with us

[05:22] <@BenDavis> But ... I do not know what you are talking about ... I never got any coins

[05:22] <wtfmate1> so you don't have the bitcoins to cover what people gave you?

[05:22] <phantomcircuit> we wont be going out of business over 5k usd

[05:22] <@Geebus> You threatened him with injury to his person or personal affects.

[05:22] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, yes felons are not allowed to have firearms

[05:23] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, we do

[05:23] <wtfmate1> but you just said you were solvent? so which is it? Why do you keep contradicting yourself?

[05:23] <@BenDavis> He is scared

[05:23] <@BenDavis> And thinks he can scare me

[05:23] <@Geebus> Bitcoin is designed to be an irreversible transaction system.

[05:24] <@Geebus> There is a point in which you have to accept that you're probably not going to get back whatever you sent, and you need to move on. Trust me, I know.

[05:24] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, solvent means we have enough funds

[05:24] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, you're thinking of insolvent

[05:25] <wtfmate1> ah yes, you r right

[05:25] <wtfmate1> so you arent out of business over this?

[05:25] <phantomcircuit> no

[05:26] <wtfmate1> you r lucky then

[05:26] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, at the very least dont you just feell kind of like a dick

[05:26] <wtfmate1> still, sucks you messed up.

[05:26] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, did you like my email btw?

[05:26] <Optonic> phantomcircuit: what was the name of your exchange again? I have to put this one on my personal black list

[05:26] <@BenDavis> Patrick, yes bro, I did get a good lauch outta that LOL that was pretty cool

[05:26] <@BenDavis> the Indiana Jones thing

[05:27] <@BenDavis> laugh*

[05:28] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: how many bitcoins do you have left after that accident?

[05:29] <@Geebus> Didn't the FBI say during all the MyBitcoin stuff that people were basically just fucked that they lost a bunch of intangible data that holds no value in the eyes of the government?

[05:29] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, im about to do an offline backup ill show you...

[05:29] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, what makes this different is that he immediately sold them, thus proving their value

[05:29] <phantomcircuit> ironic no?

[05:30] <@Geebus> He proved they had a value AFTER you transferred ownership to him

[05:30] <@Geebus> Not at the time they were transferred.

[05:30] <@Geebus> Bitcoin is a one-way system.

[05:30] <phantomcircuit> times close enough that it's irrelevant

[05:31] <@Geebus> The relevant point is that you transferred ownership

[05:31] <@Geebus> Not the value.

[05:31] <@Geebus> If I give someone a car and they immediately turn around and sell it, I can't do anything about it.

[05:31] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, i have absolutely no doubt that he has committed a crime, but honestly i dont give a shit i just want them back

[05:32] <@BenDavis> What is the crime again?

[05:32] <wtfmate1> I'm not sure which is worse...getting your bitcoins hacked/stolen, or accidentally sending them to a random address

[05:32] <wtfmate1> lol

[05:32] <@BenDavis> LOL

[05:32] <@Geebus> If I gave someone a car, legally transferred ownership to them and then asked for it back, they can tell me to fuck off. Legally.

[05:32] <wtfmate1> that totally blows for phantomcircuit

[05:32] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, it's theft btw

[05:33] <@BenDavis> Actually Patrick...

[05:33] <@Geebus> Theft - the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

[05:33] <wtfmate1> but sounds like you have the btc to coverup your mistake

[05:33] <@BenDavis> Technically YOU are the theif

[05:33] <@Geebus> He "took" nothing.

[05:33] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, there was no legal transfer

[05:33] <@BenDavis> because you gave away someone elses BTC without their permission

[05:33] <@BenDavis> so who is the theif?

[05:33] <@Geebus> You initiated a transaction in the network to him, correct? ...he did not steal your wallet.dat?

[05:33] <@BenDavis> There was no illegal transfer either

[05:33] <wtfmate1> if your code messed up, that's a costly mistake or leason learned the hard way.

[05:33] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, impressive rationalization

[05:34] <@BenDavis> I know right, Patrick? Sometimes I surprise myself

[05:34] <@BenDavis> Cuz technically, they are NOT your coins, correct?

[05:34] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: you already admitted your code messed up, so that's on you....not him.

[05:34] <@BenDavis> Please answer yes or no.

[05:34] <wtfmate1> your bad

[05:34] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, we're an agent

[05:34] <phantomcircuit> so the answer isn't yes or no

[05:34] <@BenDavis> Are they YOUR coins, yes or no.

[05:34] <@Geebus> By that definition, our users have stolen 26200 bitcoins from us through transactions we have sent to them.

[05:34] <@BenDavis> the answer is NO.

[05:35] <@BenDavis> So. You sending them when they are not yours... makes YOU the thief.

[05:35] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, no you meant to send them the vast majority of those

[05:35] <wtfmate1> as I understand bitcoin, phantomcircuit's code had to have initiated the transfer...which makes it his mistake, not bendavis's mistake.

[05:35] <@Geebus> So, you are trying to prove intent?

[05:35] <wtfmate1> sounds like bendavis got reallly lucky

[05:35] <wtfmate1> because phantomcircuits code fucked up

[05:36] <wtfmate1> whooops

[05:36] <wtfmate1> I bet that will never happen again.

[05:36] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, intent in this matter is crystal clear

[05:36] <@Geebus> Rationally speaking, since I assume you didn't realize you were sending them until the point in which you stopped, one could argue that you didn't intend for him to receive them until he had received more than required.

[05:36] <wtfmate1> yes, you messed up and sent bitcoins.

[05:36] <@Geebus> Therefore, intent was established after they were sent, and not before.

[05:37] <wtfmate1> I dont think I will be using intersango.com ever unless they send me free bitcoins.

[05:37] <@BenDavis> lol

[05:37] <wtfmate1> that's a good way to get new users....lol

[05:37] <phantomcircuit> sigh

[05:37] <wtfmate1> we should post this on the bitcointalk.org site and see what others think

[05:38] <wtfmate1> watch the lulz catz start appearing

[04:50] you owe me 511 btc[04:50] i strongly suggest you send it back[04:50] Wait, you sent him 511 BTC?[04:51] [04:51] How was your tea this morning?[04:51] BenDavis, i dont drink tea[04:51] I WANT 511 BITCOINS!![04:51] me too!!![04:51] send me bitcoins[04:52] So... you sent it? ...like, initiated a transaction to him?[04:52] how do I get 511 bitcoins??[04:52] Or did he steal them?[04:52] BenDavis, just an fyi spending funds which were erroneously sent to you is legally the same as simple theft[04:52] so congratulations you've committed a class b felony[04:52] I beg to differ Patrick[04:52] But I don't know what you are talking about![04:53] Feel free to send me some BTC if you want.[04:53] stop lying[04:53] i know who you are[04:53] Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.[04:53] what did i miss out on? oh man...i want some free bitcoins[04:53] I could really use some free BTC too![04:53] can you send me free bitcoin patrick? I will be your BFF[04:53] Geebus, it's irrelevant he sold them immediately thus locking in the valuation at > 1k usd[04:53] I'll send you a few bitcents wtfmate1...[04:53] which makes it a serious felony[04:53] not if you give them to me[04:53] They had 0 value at the time you transferred them[04:53] [04:54] Patrick Strateman, I have no clue what you are talking about.[04:54] I don't even mine for coins.[04:54] Once ownership (i.e. posession) changes, the value he sells them at is irrelevant.[04:54] yeah cool you have my name[04:54] amazing[04:54] BenDavis, i was trying to go about this reasonably[04:54] Bitcoin is a one-way system. Once you send them, you release ownership.[04:55] clearly you have no intention of doing so[04:55] I have no clue what you are talking about![04:55] Had he stolen your wallet.dat or something, that would be different.[04:55] I will take some free BTC tho. How do I do that?[04:55] BenDavis, now you're just lying[04:55] Maybe Donald can rub your back for you?[04:55] Make you feel better?[04:55] Or Amir can get you some tea?[04:56] Hey I got a better idea. Since you know where I am ... why don't you come meet me personally?[04:56] oh i will[04:56] Sweet! I can't wait to meet you![04:56] ill tell your kids how daddy is a thief[04:57] all about how daddy likes to take things that aren't his[04:57] Objection your Honor... Plaintiff is suggesting the act of receiving a transfer initiated by themselves makes the defendant a "theif."[04:57] Receiving is a very different thing than taking.[04:57] Taking implies force.[04:57] Geebus, no that alone would not, acting in bad faith once it was clear they were not his[04:57] however does[04:57] Yeah, I do not believe I took anything.[04:58] Can you tell me how I took anything?[04:58] lmfao[04:58] Bad faith is a moral or ethical dilemma, not a legal matter.[04:58] sigh[04:58] Patrick, so how is the weather in Europe today?[04:58] sounds like phantomcircuit screwed up and set free bitcoins?? did I get this right??[04:58] BenDavis, so what you're saying is that you're refusing to act amicably to resolve this[04:58] If it's any consolation, I'm sure he'll go to hell.[04:58] wtfmate1, yes[04:58] BenDavis, shitty[04:58] cool, send me some then[04:59] [04:59] 1J5PZukyLapvbLUUjhvV3MCyQWg3e6pRW8[04:59] to be clear they were not free[04:59] they are if you send them to me[04:59] [04:59] Can you send that address some BTC?[05:00] did you have a prearranged contract negotiating an exchange of goods or services for the BTC?[05:00] ...otherwise, they were free.[05:00] So when are you going to fly over here from Europe and meet me?[05:01] BenDavis, in about a month ill be there anyways[05:01] Sweet bro.[05:01] Can't wait to shake your hand.[05:01] Well, I can't say "free"... I'm sure you had to pay some tx fees on a 511 btc transfer...[05:01] yeah im sure you'll be super excited when they put you in cuffs![05:01] Oh I can't wait man![05:01] Who is "they[05:01] ?[05:01] the police[05:01] Some secret Euro police team that governs BTC lmfao[05:02] he committed a serious crime[05:02] Like, state police?[05:02] if he did not steal them, then will never hear from the police.[05:02] Really? What crime?[05:02] I think you just fucked up[05:02] and are pissed[05:02] and trying to scare me[05:02] but I tell you this[05:02] I am no punk[05:02] sounds like you messed up phantomcircuit. what went wrong?[05:02] so you fucked up bro![05:02] wtfmate1, i messed up[05:02] BenDavis, yeha i can see that[05:02] how?[05:02] ...because, as an international matter, no state jurisdiction would be capable of taking the case, nor would you be able to file a police report or charges against him without being a legal resident of the US, or without having the legal representation of an embassy residing therein.[05:02] how do you accidently send 511 btc?[05:03] My question is ... what the fuck were you doing when you sent that on accidemt?[05:03] What on earth were you doing lol[05:03] Trying to figure out a way to fuck someone over and it bit you in the ass?[05:03] it's automated there was a bug[05:03] woops, get a new coder[05:03] fire Amir[05:03] Kinda looks like you should be mad at Amir[05:04] how do you have 511 btc though?[05:04] I'll admit, my own code fuck ups on this pool have cost me a few hundred bitcoins... not a single one that I got back.[05:04] Geebus, did you know who you sent it to?[05:04] Of course I did.[05:04] Geebus: hah! you got a single one back[05:05] Optonic: Thats right, lol[05:05] Optonic: Thanks for reminding me. I appreciate it.[05:05] BenDavis, so i see you dont think youv'e committed a crime[05:05] phantomcircuit, how did you have 511 btc? Did you mine them?[05:05] lets say i was to buy something online and i live next to you[05:05] but i mess up[05:05] and i send it to you[05:05] is this now yours?[05:05] (hint the answer is no)[05:05] How did you get 511 BTC ?[05:06] i think you know[05:06] no i dont[05:06] i think you do[05:06] surecock[05:06] answer the question[05:06] obviously it's other peoples[05:07] do you run a pool?[05:08] no an exchange[05:08] which one?[05:08] tradehill or gox?[05:08] BenDavis, so to recap, you dont believe you are legally obliged to return the funds, you will not return the funds, you dont even feel bad about keeping them?[05:08] wtfmate1, neither[05:09] which one then?[05:09] intersango.com[05:10] BenDavis, you know we've accidentally sent people funds in the past and you've the only person who has ever refused to send them back[05:10] I'm not asking to be defensive of him, but out of curiosity. What legal basis is there for returning something that was sent to you without any prevocation?[05:10] I'd personally like to know for some of my own errors I've tried to legally pursue in the past, as I've been told that there is none.[05:11] Geebus, it depends on whether you could reasonably return the goods, if you find $5 on the sidewalk you cant be reasonably expected to figure out whose $5 it was, but if the bank (or anybody else) sends you money for no reason you are obliged to send it back[05:11] Geebus, i believe this is a pretty clear case of the latter[05:11] phontomcircuit, so you have about 155 btc worth of trades right now on your exchange?[05:12] But you're not a registered financial institution are you? I had some problems with the Australian Federal Police in regard to a similar situation.[05:12] wtfmate1, we just migrated to a new version, unfortunately the openid login system we were using in the past cannot be trivially migrated, so most of our users (and trades) are not yet being displayed[05:13] and your code messed up and sent 511 btc to BenDavis?[05:13] Geebus, the laws on this vary by country, but in the us it is very clear that if you receive something out of the blue without expecting it you have no duty to try and return it but you do have a duty to not spend it[05:13] wtfmate1, the irony here being that it did so in an attempt to be robust[05:13] code messing up itself is an interesting matter btw[05:13] So, you can keep it, but not spend it?[05:14] Geebus, you have an obligation to return it if the original sender makes it clear it was a mistake[05:14] which i believe i have[05:14] phantomcircuit: that sucks[05:14] BenDavis, seriously class b felony[05:15] BenDavis, fuck the felony part[05:15] BenDavis, just dont be a dick[05:15] it's not even our bitcoins[05:16] it's not like we're some fucking huge bank or something[05:16] I already see a headline "blabla exchange loses 511 btc on accident" - I don't think users will like this. keep it under the carpet, dude.[05:16] I'm googling it, but I can't seem to find any law regarding the accidental transfer of ownership[05:17] In the US or any other country for that matter.[05:18] Geebus, https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vtmiMvqow4UJ:www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk [05:18] A person commits theft when, with intent to deprive another of property or to appropriate property to the person or to a third person, the person:[05:18] (1) Takes, appropriates, obtains or withholds such property from an owner thereof;[05:19] it is not his property[05:19] it is our property[05:19] he is merely in possession of it[05:19] lmfao[05:19] possession is 9\10ths the law they say[05:19] Here is the description of a transaction according to the Bitcoin FAQ: "Eve cannot change who the coins belong to by replacing Bobs public key with her public key, because Alice signed the transfer to Bob using her private key, declaring that the coins which belonged to her now belong to Bob, and Alice's private key is kept secret from Eve. So if Charley accepts that the original coin was in the hands of Alice he will also accep[05:19] It clearly defines a transfer of ownership.[05:20] BenDavis, the other 1/10th is proof that it was a mistaken payment[05:20] wait, "05:15] it's not even our bitcoins" .......... so if you don't own them, and you sent them to him on accident, it's still not "your" property. You just contradicted yourself.[05:20] wtfmate1, we act as agent for other people[05:20] Good point there ... you don't even own them. They are NOT yours. So I guess all those poor souls who you LOST their money, are going to have to file the police report.[05:20] Because they are NOT yours.[05:21] BenDavis, look forget whether it's illegal or[05:21] not[05:21] IRC is logged dude, I wouldn't have come in here and said that.[05:21] phantomcircuit: Are you solvent now?[05:21] do you really want to be that guy with your name and all your info out there saying you stole 511 BTC?[05:21] wtfmate1, yes[05:21] oh believe me... I am copying this entire discussion[05:21] Technically, you threathened him physically, which *IS* against US federal law[05:21] OUT OF BUSINESS?[05:21] Geebus, i never threatened him[05:21] ever[05:22] You are just mad because your Exchange is going to go OUT OF BUSINESS now ... and you are trying desperately to get your BTC back[05:22] i said id some see him[05:22] come*[05:22] i see you really like your guns [04:47] if you want to keep them i suggest working with us[05:22] But ... I do not know what you are talking about ... I never got any coins[05:22] so you don't have the bitcoins to cover what people gave you?[05:22] we wont be going out of business over 5k usd[05:22] You threatened him with injury to his person or personal affects.[05:22] Geebus, yes felons are not allowed to have firearms[05:23] wtfmate1, we do[05:23] but you just said you were solvent? so which is it? Why do you keep contradicting yourself?[05:23] He is scared[05:23] And thinks he can scare me[05:23] Bitcoin is designed to be an irreversible transaction system.[05:24] There is a point in which you have to accept that you're probably not going to get back whatever you sent, and you need to move on. Trust me, I know.[05:24] wtfmate1, solvent means we have enough funds[05:24] wtfmate1, you're thinking of insolvent[05:25] ah yes, you r right[05:25] so you arent out of business over this?[05:25] no[05:26] you r lucky then[05:26] BenDavis, at the very least dont you just feell kind of like a dick[05:26] still, sucks you messed up.[05:26] BenDavis, did you like my email btw?[05:26] phantomcircuit: what was the name of your exchange again? I have to put this one on my personal black list[05:26] Patrick, yes bro, I did get a good lauch outta that LOL that was pretty cool[05:26] the Indiana Jones thing[05:27] laugh*[05:28] phantomcircuit: how many bitcoins do you have left after that accident?[05:29] Didn't the FBI say during all the MyBitcoin stuff that people were basically just fucked that they lost a bunch of intangible data that holds no value in the eyes of the government?[05:29] wtfmate1, im about to do an offline backup ill show you...[05:29] Geebus, what makes this different is that he immediately sold them, thus proving their value[05:29] ironic no?[05:30] He proved they had a value AFTER you transferred ownership to him[05:30] Not at the time they were transferred.[05:30] Bitcoin is a one-way system.[05:30] times close enough that it's irrelevant[05:31] The relevant point is that you transferred ownership[05:31] Not the value.[05:31] If I give someone a car and they immediately turn around and sell it, I can't do anything about it.[05:31] Geebus, i have absolutely no doubt that he has committed a crime, but honestly i dont give a shit i just want them back[05:32] What is the crime again?[05:32] I'm not sure which is worse...getting your bitcoins hacked/stolen, or accidentally sending them to a random address[05:32] lol[05:32] LOL[05:32] If I gave someone a car, legally transferred ownership to them and then asked for it back, they can tell me to fuck off. Legally.[05:32] that totally blows for phantomcircuit[05:32] BenDavis, it's theft btw[05:33] Actually Patrick...[05:33] Theft - the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.[05:33] but sounds like you have the btc to coverup your mistake[05:33] Technically YOU are the theif[05:33] He "took" nothing.[05:33] Geebus, there was no legal transfer[05:33] because you gave away someone elses BTC without their permission[05:33] so who is the theif?[05:33] You initiated a transaction in the network to him, correct? ...he did not steal your wallet.dat?[05:33] There was no illegal transfer either[05:33] if your code messed up, that's a costly mistake or leason learned the hard way.[05:33] BenDavis, impressive rationalization[05:34] I know right, Patrick? Sometimes I surprise myself[05:34] Cuz technically, they are NOT your coins, correct?[05:34] phantomcircuit: you already admitted your code messed up, so that's on you....not him.[05:34] Please answer yes or no.[05:34] your bad[05:34] BenDavis, we're an agent[05:34] so the answer isn't yes or no[05:34] Are they YOUR coins, yes or no.[05:34] By that definition, our users have stolen 26200 bitcoins from us through transactions we have sent to them.[05:34] the answer is NO.[05:35] So. You sending them when they are not yours... makes YOU the thief.[05:35] Geebus, no you meant to send them the vast majority of those[05:35] as I understand bitcoin, phantomcircuit's code had to have initiated the transfer...which makes it his mistake, not bendavis's mistake.[05:35] So, you are trying to prove intent?[05:35] sounds like bendavis got reallly lucky[05:35] because phantomcircuits code fucked up[05:36] whooops[05:36] I bet that will never happen again.[05:36] Geebus, intent in this matter is crystal clear[05:36] Rationally speaking, since I assume you didn't realize you were sending them until the point in which you stopped, one could argue that you didn't intend for him to receive them until he had received more than required.[05:36] yes, you messed up and sent bitcoins.[05:36] Therefore, intent was established after they were sent, and not before.[05:37] I dont think I will be using intersango.com ever unless they send me free bitcoins.[05:37] lol[05:37] that's a good way to get new users....lol[05:37] sigh[05:37] we should post this on the bitcointalk.org site and see what others think[05:38] watch the lulz catz start appearing IRC CHAT LOG