Waxangel Profile Blog Joined September 2002 United States 29113 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 21:12:51 #1



As Google/DeepMind's artificial intelligence AlphaGo



Consensus greatest-of-all-time Brood War pro Flash



"I don't know how smart [AlphaGo] is, but even if it can win in Baduk(Go), it can't beat humans in StarCraft."





"It would be a mistake to think artificial intelligence could beat humans in StarCraft. StarCraft is a game where situational strategy is far more important than in Baduk, so it's an area where AI cannot catch up."





"There are many variables in StarCraft, such as scouting, obviously, as well as maps, racial balance, micro, mind-games, etc."





"Even if countless data is inputted and studied by the AI so it has some degree of instinct, it won't reach pro level."





"If such an offer comes in the future, I'll gladly accept."





"Even if it has studied all of the many strategies I've used, I'll go at it with an unstoppable strategy I've prepared."





"Competing in a few StarCraft tournaments nowadays, I felt that this is where my roots are. It's exciting just thinking about facing a machine as mankind's representative."





Via: Yonhap News As Google/DeepMind's artificial intelligence AlphaGo continues to roll against top Baduk pro Lee Se-dol, StarCraft has emerged as a potential future target for the AI.Consensus greatest-of-all-time Brood War pro Flash expressed cautious confidence in a short interview on Thursday. Another Terran legend, Boxer, mirrored his sentiments in an interview with Yonhap News. Here are Boxer's quotes from the article: Administrator Hey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?

Axieoqu Profile Joined October 2005 Finland 204 Posts #2 I would assume Starcraft would be even easier for the AI because mechanics are so important. Just consider how well the simple blink/micro bots work.

greenelve Profile Joined April 2011 Germany 1372 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 17:46:07 #3 Im not sure about this. AI has the disatvantages of the points which are stated, sure why not, but an AI can also have thousands of APM and just perfectly muta micro and harass like never faced against a human before.



But it should be much harder for an AI to "understand" Starcraft on pro level than chess or GO, because of their static nature. Whereas SC has many variables and unknown factors to work with. z0r.de for your daily madness /// Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The Shadow knows!

Lexender Profile Joined September 2013 Mexico 2541 Posts #4 On March 13 2016 02:45 greenelve wrote:

Im not sure about this. AI has the disatvantages of the points which are stated, sure why not, but an AI can also have thousands of APM and just perfectly muta micro and harass like never faced against a human before.



But it should be much harder for an AI to "understand" Starcraft on pro level than chess or GO, because of their static nature. Whereas SC has many variables and unknown factors to work with.



They would have to implement APM constraints in the AI of course, otherwise the whole experiment would be useless. They would have to implement APM constraints in the AI of course, otherwise the whole experiment would be useless.

parazice Profile Joined March 2011 Thailand 3723 Posts #5 Automaton 2000 Micro + Alpha Ai

R.I.P

Musicus Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 23387 Posts #6 All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited. Maru and Serral are probably top 5.

Heyoka Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Temple of EE-Sama 22504 Posts #7 I mean your duty as a SC player is to thump your chest and say "no machine will beat me!" right? It's not like anyone is going to have a reasonable discussion about this in interviews. @RealHeyoka | DreamHack StarCrafty Man

ejozl Profile Joined October 2010 Denmark 2906 Posts #8 I think it's pretty cool we get these statements, might make it more possible for the event to happen, since they seem so confident. SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.

Grettin Profile Joined April 2010 32020 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 17:57:21 #9 On March 13 2016 02:48 parazice wrote:

Automaton 2000 Micro + Alpha Ai

R.I.P



While i think it's relevant to bring this up, i'm not so sure (without looking into it) that it would work as well in Broodwar as it did in Star2.



Someone with more knowledge can clarify.



Also some good points being brought up in this thread.



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/505525-go-alphago-google-vs-lee-sedol-world-champ?page=5 While i think it's relevant to bring this up, i'm not so sure (without looking into it) that it would work as well in Broodwar as it did in Star2.Someone with more knowledge can clarify.Also some good points being brought up in this thread. "If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu

brickrd Profile Blog Joined March 2014 United States 4894 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 17:56:51 #10



it's not a question of "if," it's a question of when. maybe not in 5 years, maybe not in 10 years, but nothing is going to stop AI from getting better and becoming able to excel in complex tasks. they said the same thing about chess, same thing about go, same thing about lots of computerized tasks. it's cute that he thinks it's not possible, but there's no reasonable argument outside of "when will it happen" On March 13 2016 02:50 Musicus wrote:

All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited.

sorry for finding science interesting! sorry for finding science interesting!

RewardedFool Profile Joined July 2015 17 Posts #11 Boxer is definitely Fan Hui in this scenario, not Lee Sedol.

Garrl Profile Blog Joined February 2010 Scotland 1536 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 18:09:23 #12 On March 13 2016 02:50 Musicus wrote:

All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited.



people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind's project is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.



could be far, far closer than you might think.



+ Show Spoiler +



+ Show Spoiler + people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind's project is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.could be far, far closer than you might think.

GrandSmurf Profile Joined July 2003 Netherlands 462 Posts #13 its possible to get wrecked by superior micro. One time that happened and I just stopped everything, selected the offending SCV, hit Cancel, moved it over to my Barracks, made a Marine, had the Marine shoot it to death, then left the game.

SoleSteeler Profile Joined April 2003 Canada 5210 Posts #14 A well programmed AI would have an easy time with perfect micro and macro. Decision making would be tougher of course...

Clonester Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 2808 Posts #15 The same has the complete Go community said about AlphaGo and also Lee Sedol said, he will win so easy against AlphaGo. It became a train wreck... for the Go community.



Same will happen with AlphaStarcraft for Boxer, Flash, Bisu and the complete Community. Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii

Nakajin Profile Blog Joined September 2014 Canada 6579 Posts #16 On March 13 2016 03:01 Garrl wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 13 2016 02:50 Musicus wrote:

All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited.



people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.



could be far, far closer than you might think. people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.could be far, far closer than you might think.





Well it could also be far far longer than you might think, it the 60th it was pretty clear for a lot of people including scientist, that 50 years later, there was going to be daily space travel, and lunar colony. Yet here we are in 2016 and we are still far of doing that. The time it take to solve science problem is hard to predict.



Well it could also be far far longer than you might think, it the 60th it was pretty clear for a lot of people including scientist, that 50 years later, there was going to be daily space travel, and lunar colony. Yet here we are in 2016 and we are still far of doing that. The time it take to solve science problem is hard to predict. http://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg

lordsaul Profile Joined December 2010 13 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 18:25:11 #17 massively underestimate what perfect mechanics does to the game It depends on the rules/limitations placed on the AI, but imagine



* Every Medivac always picking up units about to be hit by a stalker and immediately dropping it for the next shot

* Marines that always maintain their range advantage on roaches

* Tanks that always target the banelings first

* Marines that always perfect split v banelings (you can find that online already)

* Weak units that always rotate out of the front line

* Medivacs healing the most important target in range, rather than the closest

* Perfect charges vs tank lines (single units charging ahead of the main attack

* ...to name a very few basic micro tricks



And while all this happens, perfect macro? Humans overestimate themselves . Computers won't even need "good" strategy to beat humans, just a large number of difficult to handle micro tricks and beastly macro. The "AI" that will need to be added is just to stop the computer glitching out against weird tricks (e.g. somehow tricking the AI into permanent retreat based on units trying to find perfect range.



Edit: Humans are actually at an advantage in Chess and Go, because they are put under far less real time pressure. Also - I realise I'm talking about SC2 here, not BW, but a lot would apply. I think it's a real shame that we can't have AI competitions in SC2, I think peopleunderestimate what perfect mechanics does to the game It depends on the rules/limitations placed on the AI, but imagineMedivacpicking up units about to be hit by a stalker and immediately dropping it for the next shot* Marines that always maintain their range advantage on roaches* Tanks that always target the banelings first* Marines that always perfect split v banelings (you can find that online already)* Weak units that always rotate out of the front line* Medivacs healing the, rather than the closest* Perfect charges vs tank lines (single units charging ahead of the main attack* ...to name a very few basic micro tricksAnd while all this happens, perfect macro? Humans overestimate themselves. Computers won't even need "good" strategy to beat humans, just a large number of difficult to handle micro tricks and beastly macro. The "AI" that will need to be added is just to stop the computer glitching out against weird tricks (e.g. somehow tricking the AI into permanent retreat based on units trying to find perfect range.Edit: Humans are actually at anin Chess and Go, because they are put under far less real time pressure. Also - I realise I'm talking about SC2 here, not BW, but a lot would apply. I think it's a real shame that we can't have AI competitions in SC2,

JimmyJRaynor Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 14068 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 18:28:10 #18 On March 13 2016 02:56 brickrd wrote:

it's not a question of "if," it's a question of when. maybe not in 5 years, maybe not in 10 years, but nothing is going to stop AI from getting better and becoming able to excel in complex tasks. they said the same thing about chess, same thing about go, same thing about lots of computerized tasks. it's cute that he thinks it's not possible, but there's no reasonable argument outside of "when will it happen"



Show nested quote +

On March 13 2016 02:50 Musicus wrote:

All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited.

sorry for finding science interesting! it's not a question of "if," it's a question of when. maybe not in 5 years, maybe not in 10 years, but nothing is going to stop AI from getting better and becoming able to excel in complex tasks. they said the same thing about chess, same thing about go, same thing about lots of computerized tasks. it's cute that he thinks it's not possible, but there's no reasonable argument outside of "when will it happen"sorry for finding science interesting!



maybe there will come a day when instead of watching WCS between 2 humans we'll see a WCS between 2 AI teams that build AIs to play the game



On March 13 2016 03:01 Garrl wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 13 2016 02:50 Musicus wrote:

All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited.



people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind's project is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.



could be far, far closer than you might think.



+ Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePv0Fs9cGgU

people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind's project is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.could be far, far closer than you might think.



Atari 2600 Space Invaders where bullets disappear and reappear in mid-air because the system can only handle a few independently moving objects at any one time?



its a pretty bad example.. the arcade version would be a much truer test. maybe there will come a day when instead of watching WCS between 2 humans we'll see a WCS between 2 AI teams that build AIs to play the gameAtari 2600 Space Invaders where bullets disappear and reappear in mid-air because the system can only handle a few independently moving objects at any one time?its a pretty bad example.. the arcade version would be a much truer test. Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"

brickrd Profile Blog Joined March 2014 United States 4894 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-12 18:19:38 #19 On March 13 2016 03:16 Nakajin wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 13 2016 03:01 Garrl wrote:

On March 13 2016 02:50 Musicus wrote:

All this talk about something that might or might not happen in 5 to 10 years. When the challenge is out and the date is set, I will get excited.



people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.



could be far, far closer than you might think. people thought Go AI beating professional players was a long way off. AFAIK deepmind is a generalized solution that takes only pixel data as an input.could be far, far closer than you might think.





Well it could also be far far longer than you might think, it the 60th it was pretty clear for a lot of people including scientist, that 50 years later, there was going to be daily space travel, and lunar colony. Yet here we are in 2016 and we are still far of doing that. The time it take to solve science problem is hard to predict.



Well it could also be far far longer than you might think, it the 60th it was pretty clear for a lot of people including scientist, that 50 years later, there was going to be daily space travel, and lunar colony. Yet here we are in 2016 and we are still far of doing that. The time it take to solve science problem is hard to predict.

lunar colonies have nothing to do with adaptive AI winning at complex competitive games... the fact that an AI beat the go champion earlier than expected has everything to do with it...



just because we don't know for certain that doesn't mean that we shouldn't use relevant reference points to make predictions... lunar colonies have nothing to do with adaptive AI winning at complex competitive games... the fact that an AI beat the go champion earlier than expected has everything to do with it...just because we don't know for certain that doesn't mean that we shouldn't use relevant reference points to make predictions...

Brutaxilos Profile Blog Joined July 2010 United States 2513 Posts #20 As a programmer, I'm actually quite skeptical that Boxer would be able to beat an intelligent AI given that a team of scientists are given enough time to develop one. It's inevitable. Jangbi favorite player. Forever~ CJ herO the King of IEM. BOMBERRRRRRRR. Sexy Boy Rogue. soO #1!

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