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AdministratorLegendaryActivity: 3878Merit: 7918 DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 02:24:50 AM Merited by Foxpup (6) #1



You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum. This is not very surprising/interesting, but I thought I'd mention that I received a subpoena for information related to Ross Ulbricht's alleged forum account altoid . I mostly just compiled some publicly-available information. The only non-public data I had to include were some deleted posts in the heroin store topic that were not written by DPR and probably won't be useful in the case.You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum. 1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD

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Full MemberActivity: 380Merit: 100 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 03:20:09 AM #2 And just why the hell are you disclosing something of this nature? Not that I condone or know what DPR did, but working in close proximity to lawyers for most of the day, I have a lay understanding that you probably shouldn't be openly disclosing this type of thing to anyone, let alone on the internet.

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DonatorLegendaryActivity: 2240Merit: 1042between a rock and a block! Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 04:45:06 AM #6 Quote from: feverpitch on December 03, 2014, 03:20:09 AM And just why the hell are you disclosing something of this nature? Not that I condone or know what DPR did, but working in close proximity to lawyers for most of the day, I have a lay understanding that you probably shouldn't be openly disclosing this type of thing to anyone, let alone on the internet.

Becaus he can. There was no gag order I assume...



What was the method of receiving the subpoena btw? Becaus he can. There was no gag order I assume...What was the method of receiving the subpoena btw?

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AdministratorLegendaryActivity: 3878Merit: 7918 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 05:02:27 AM Merited by Foxpup (1) #7 Quote from: feverpitch on December 03, 2014, 03:20:09 AM And just why the hell are you disclosing something of this nature? Not that I condone or know what DPR did, but working in close proximity to lawyers for most of the day, I have a lay understanding that you probably shouldn't be openly disclosing this type of thing to anyone, let alone on the internet.



No one said that this was confidential. Why should it be? Everyone knows that Ulbricht is facing criminal charges, and his (alleged) altoid account and postings were mentioned in the initial FBI report.



It's interesting to note that altoid's most damning posts only exist as quotes. He deleted the posts before I changed the forum settings to archive all deleted posts. So I don't think that this evidence is very strong, though I'm sure that this is far from the only piece of evidence that will be presented against Ulbricht.



Quote from: CanaryInTheMine on December 03, 2014, 04:45:06 AM What was the method of receiving the subpoena btw?



Email. I suppose I could have demanded a hardcopy, fought about the jurisdiction, etc., but this wouldn't have done anyone any good. No one said that this was confidential. Why should it be? Everyone knows that Ulbricht is facing criminal charges, and his (alleged) altoid account and postings were mentioned in the initial FBI report.It's interesting to note that altoid's most damning posts only exist as quotes. He deleted the posts before I changed the forum settings to archive all deleted posts. So I don't think that this evidence is very strong, though I'm sure that this is far from the only piece of evidence that will be presented against Ulbricht.Email. I suppose I could have demanded a hardcopy, fought about the jurisdiction, etc., but this wouldn't have done anyone any good. 1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD

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NewbieActivity: 6Merit: 0 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 05:15:52 AM #8 The most fascinating part of this post is that this is the first time that BitcoinTalk has ever been subpoenaed.

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Global ModeratorLegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1836Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW! Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 05:41:47 AM #10



Quote from: theymos on December 03, 2014, 02:24:50 AM You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum.



I'm sure it wont be the last. I'd say interesting, but not very exciting. Did they ask for private messages or IPs or anything like that? Looks like his last post on the forums was trying to recruit someone to be what I assume was a dev of SR. Obviously one of his first mistakes.I'm sure it wont be the last.

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Copper MemberLegendaryActivity: 2226Merit: 1953 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 06:37:35 AM

Last edit: December 03, 2014, 08:33:42 AM by Quickseller #12



Are you able to disclose specifically what was requested (e.g. a copy of the subpoena) and/or specifically what was provided (a copy of your response)?



EDIT: I think this person pretty much got what happened to SR1 spot on:

Quote from: Timo Y on June 23, 2010, 12:22:19 PM It would be easy to trace store using forensic methods, for someone with enough determination, manpower, resources, and time. Unfortunately, when it comes to opiates, the government has an amost infinite supply of all 4 of those. As long as only a small number of stores springs up they would be wiped out immediately and never reach critical mass.



And I wonder if this post was what inspired Ross to start SR

Quote from: teppy on December 08, 2010, 01:03:42 AM The original idea was one where all transactions are conducted over a website only accessible via Tor. This part has been viable for years - it's always the money part that makes it risky for both the seller and the buyer.



The parts involving mail and double-sending drugs are ways to make the business scale, and make it work globally. They give plausible deniability to those receiving drugs.



I see lots of comments in this thread that "it would never work" and "the feds will come after you", but nothing detailing a specific way that they would detect who was mailing the drugs or running the business. The closest anyone came was Babylon, who suggested that the police might stake out all mailboxes in the area the packages came from, but that 's easily diffused: Locating the business in New York City, with 100k(?) public mailboxes would do the trick, or using common packaging like business envelopes.



(And to those that don't understand the concept of a thought experiment: No, I'm not actually planning to start a heroin store.)







I was under the impression that this was received well over a year ago.Are you able to disclose specifically what was requested (e.g. a copy of the subpoena) and/or specifically what was provided (a copy of your response)?EDIT: I think this person pretty much got what happened to SR1 spot on:And I wonder if this post was what inspired Ross to start SR The head executive of the executive office of the department of the redundancy departments office

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Hero MemberActivity: 700Merit: 500 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 07:37:13 AM #13 Quote from: Vod on December 03, 2014, 03:22:49 AM Quote from: feverpitch on December 03, 2014, 03:20:09 AM And just why the hell are you disclosing something of this nature? Not that I condone or know what DPR did, but working in close proximity to lawyers for most of the day, I have a lay understanding that you probably shouldn't be openly disclosing this type of thing to anyone, let alone on the internet.



I'd say it sets a good precedent. It's nice to know when justice is happening, even if we don't know why in this case.



Even though this is a private forum, it still has to obey laws. I find that comforting.

I'd say it sets a good precedent. It's nice to know when justice is happening, even if we don't know why in this case.Even though this is a private forum, it still has to obey laws. I find that comforting.

This is an abominable precedent. When the subpoena arrives, the subpoena should go up. Not to mention that this thread was born well after the prosecution's discovery should have been submitted to the defense in the Ulbricht case.



Maybe this is the first time Theymos experienced a formal subpoena, but I have trouble believing that this is the first time he experienced a law enforcement inquiry. Especially considering the FBI and Treasury Department showed up at my front door because I used DBordello's BTCPak service way back in the day, Per:



Whatever DPR or Ulbricht or the Alleged suspect did, the rule of Just law is paramount and people in the position to disclose requests for this information ought to disclose these requests as they are received. Sure, running or patronizing a darknet drug market is one of the stupidest things a Bitcoin user could do, but it is also very shitty for a trusted member of the community running a venue to just go "Hey I got a subpoena" without offer its contents.



GPG signed version of this post: This is an abominable precedent. When the subpoena arrives, the subpoena should go up. Not to mention that this thread was born well after the prosecution's discovery should have been submitted to the defense in the Ulbricht case.Maybe this is the first time Theymos experienced a formal subpoena, but I have trouble believing that this is the first time he experienced a law enforcement inquiry. Especially considering the FBI and Treasury Department showed up at my front door because I used DBordello's BTCPak service way back in the day, Per: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/08/25/a-law-enforcement-encounter-if-you-ran-a-bitcoin-related-service-before-the-thing-hit-100-you-prolly-ought-to-be-somewhat-concerned-andor-prepared/ Whatever DPR or Ulbricht or the Alleged suspect did, the rule of Just law is paramount and people in the position to disclose requests for this information ought to disclose these requests as they are received. Sure, running or patronizing a darknet drug market is one of the stupidest things a Bitcoin user could do, but it is also very shitty for a trusted member of the community running a venue to just go "Hey I got a subpoena" without offer its contents.GPG signed version of this post: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/12/03/for-posterity/ Bingo Blog - A Blog of Bitcoin and Boingo

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AdministratorLegendaryActivity: 3878Merit: 7918 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 03:25:44 PM Merited by Foxpup (2) #15 https://bitcointalk.org/docs/ulbricht.pdf



I won't post my response because it contains deleted posts which should remain private if at all possible. Probably my response will end up as part of public record, but I'm not going to speed up the process or make it easier for people to find. I already PMed the users affected by this.



Quote from: Atruk on December 03, 2014, 07:37:13 AM Maybe this is the first time Theymos experienced a formal subpoena, but I have trouble believing that this is the first time he experienced a law enforcement inquiry.



This is the first government request/inquiry I've received related to Ulbricht's case. I have received a few other inquiries for other cases. I won't post my response because it contains deleted posts which should remain private if at all possible. Probably my response will end up as part of public record, but I'm not going to speed up the process or make it easier for people to find. I already PMed the users affected by this.This is the first government request/inquiry I've received related to Ulbricht's case. I have received a few other inquiries for other cases. 1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD

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DonatorLegendaryActivity: 1417Merit: 1008 Re: DPR subpoena December 03, 2014, 06:12:15 PM Merited by Foxpup (3) #16 Quote I hereby certify that the records provided herewith and in response to the Subpoena:

(1) were made at or near the time of the occurrence of the matters set forth in the records,

by, or from information transmitted by, a person with knowledge of those matters;

(2) were kept in the course of regularly conducted business activity; and

(3) were made as a regular practice of that activity.

I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.

I always hate trying to answer things like this as if I'm staking my reputation on the data being "absolutely" correct. At best, even as a sysadmin, we can only know "to the best of our knowledge" that the data is accurate, though these subpeonas try to make it sound like it's cold hard facts and that the data could never have been tampered with. For example, the forums were compromised last year and even though you may not suspect anything was changed/deleted, it's hard to say that you *know for sure* nothing was, and even if you did know, it's always to the best of your knowledge, not an absolute.



When/if you show up in court, if the defense asks you stuff like this to try to put your reputation on the line, I'd caution against claiming absolutes. I'm confident you'll do fine, but I'd hate for them tear you apart and the prosecution to sacrifice you because they don't care. They might not even put you on the stand, though, hard to tell if this is even going to be a point of contention, they might not care to fight the case on this particular issue. If I was a lawyer though, I'd tear a sysadmin's word apart just because I know from being a sysadmin how uncertain things we believe to be true can sometimes be. Especially in troubleshooting.



Sorry to see you got dragged into this stuff, don't trust anyone but the judge if you're on the stand. I always hate trying to answer things like this as if I'm staking my reputation on the data being "absolutely" correct. At best, even as a sysadmin, we can only know "to the best of our knowledge" that the data is accurate, though these subpeonas try to make it sound like it's cold hard facts and that the data could never have been tampered with. For example, the forums were compromised last year and even though you may not suspect anything was changed/deleted, it's hard to say that you *know for sure* nothing was, and even if you did know, it's always to the best of your knowledge, not an absolute.When/if you show up in court, if the defense asks you stuff like this to try to put your reputation on the line, I'd caution against claiming absolutes. I'm confident you'll do fine, but I'd hate for them tear you apart and the prosecution to sacrifice you because they don't care. They might not even put you on the stand, though, hard to tell if this is even going to be a point of contention, they might not care to fight the case on this particular issue. If I was a lawyer though, I'd tear a sysadmin's word apart just because I know from being a sysadmin how uncertain things we believe to be true can sometimes be. Especially in troubleshooting.Sorry to see you got dragged into this stuff, don't trust anyone but the judge if you're on the stand. OrganofCorti's Neighbourhood Pool Watch - The most informative website on blockchain health