michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today. In the battle over what kind of democracy would prevail in Britain, Prime Minister Boris Johnson seemed to have the upper hand by cutting Parliament out of Brexit until last week. Mark Landler on the latest from Britain. [MUSIC PLAYING] It’s Monday, September 9.

mark landler

Hello?

michael barbaro

Mark?

mark landler

Hi. How are you, Michael?

michael barbaro

Hey.

mark landler

Hey there.

michael barbaro

So you’re in the London bureau.

mark landler

I am.

michael barbaro

And you’re on a landline.

mark landler

I am. I think this office is pretty quiet. I closed the door, and I don’t think anyone’s going to bother me.

michael barbaro

Oh, you have an office now.

mark landler

I got a corner office. I got two windows. I’m sitting here looking at double decker buses.

michael barbaro

Living the dream.

mark landler

Mm-hmm.

michael barbaro

OK. We’re going to get started. Are you recording?

mark landler

OK, yeah, I’m recording.

michael barbaro

So Mark, you just became the London bureau chief after several years covering the Trump administration, being a White House reporter. This is quite a moment to make that leap.

mark landler

I guess you could say it’s a little bit like the frying pan to the fire metaphor. There’s probably more newsy situations you could parachute into. But it’s kind of hard to imagine.

archived recording 1 There are political fireworks in Britain this morning over a surprise move today by British Prime Minister Boris Johnson to suspend Parliament. archived recording 2 Now here’s what it will do. Parliament was supposed to sit again on Monday for a number of weeks, but instead, this will suspend Parliament the week of September 10 and it won’t resume until October 14. archived recording 3 Just as Britain is to leave the E.U. at the end of October. archived recording 4 Your critics will say this is an insult to democracy in denying the M.P.s the time they need to debate and possibly vote on Brexit.

johnson)^

Well, that is completely untrue. If you look at what we’re doing, we’re bringing forward a new legislative program—

archived recording 1 Are we gonna stop the coup? archived recording 2 Yes! archived recording 1 Are we going to save democracy? archived recording 3 Stop Brexit. Stop the coup! Stop Brexit. Stop the coup! archived recording 4 Stop Brexit. Stop the coup! Stop Brexit. Stop the coup! Stop Brexit.. Stop the coup!

michael barbaro

So in our last episode about Brexit, we spoke to our colleague, Katrin Bennhold, just after Boris Johnson had suspended Parliament and basically cut them out of the decision making process about how Brexit would move forward. And Katrin talked about how that had set up this question about what version of democracy would prevail in Britain. Should it be the version that prioritizes the popular will of the British people, who voted for Brexit with or without a deal with the E.U., which is what Boris Johnson wants, or should the version of democracy be allowing Parliament the people’s representatives to play a major role in what leaving the E.U. looks like? So how has this all unfolded in the days since Boris Johnson made that move?

mark landler

Well, I think the answer is that it unfolded resoundingly in favor of Parliament as Parliament reconvened on Tuesday. Because remember, Boris Johnson’s suspension of Parliament doesn’t kick in for another week or so there was an atmosphere of high drama—

archived recording (john bercow) —very rude for members. Order! Order! Order! Order! I say to the Chancellor of the Duchy that when he turns up at our children’s school as a parent, he’s a very well-behaved fellow. He wouldn’t dare behave like that in front of—

michael barbaro

—with M.P.s going on TV, on the radio—

archived recording 1 There used to be this phrase, the one nation. archived recording 2 And this leader, I don’t recognize. archived recording 3 This is now a one dogma Tories. archived recording 4 It’s a Brexit party. Look, rebadged.

mark landler

—complaining about Boris Johnson having committed a constitutional outrage.

archived recording It is a constitutional outrage. This is extraordinary. He needs to be held to account by Parliament, not by shutting down Parliament.

mark landler

And all of this emotion climaxed—

archived recording And of course, I think one of the most remarkable things that took place during the statement was to see the member for Bracknell cross the floor. Prime Minister, you’ve lost your majority.

mark landler

—with a member of Boris Johnson’s own conservative party crossing the aisle in front of the prime minister to sit with members of the Liberal Democratic Party, an act which deprived Johnson in one stroke of his majority in Parliament.

archived recording He isn’t winning friends in Europe. He’s losing friends at home. This is a government with no mandate, no morals. And as of today, no majority.

mark landler

So after this very stormy start, the next thing that happens is—

archived recording Tonight, the United Kingdom has been plunged into even deeper political chaos.

mark landler

—the opposition joined by 21 members of the Conservative Party vote in favor of advancing this legislation that would effectively say to Boris Johnson, you can’t go to Brussels, and pull Britain out of the European Union unless you make a deal with the European Union first.

archived recording 1 A majority of British lawmakers, including some members of prime minister Boris Johnson’s own party, voted to stop Johnson’s plan to leave the European Union without a withdrawal agreement. archived recording 2 Not a good start, Boris. archived recording 3 Order. The ayes to the right, 328. The nos to the left, 301. So the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Unlock.

mark landler

So that’s the first major defeat he suffers in his term as prime minister. And it’s a big one.

archived recording There is no consent in this house to leave the European Union without a deal. There is no majority for no deal in the country.

mark landler

Because it goes straight to the heart of what Boris Johnson said he would do as prime minister. And that is to withdraw on October 31, deal or no deal, regardless of this situation.

michael barbaro

So when that one conservative lawmaker theatrically flipped on the floor of Parliament, it turned out that was a signal of a bigger growing uprising within Boris Johnson’s party over this approach he was taking to Brexit. To try to cut Parliament out and just kind of crash this thing through.

mark landler

That’s right. And it’s really very unprecedented. I mean, the conservative party, British parties in general, have iron discipline. So to see 21 lawmakers peel off and vote against the prime minister and the government is really a wholly unprecedented development in British politics. So from the very first session of Parliament, the British people understood that what they were witnessing was something entirely new in their modern political history.

michael barbaro

And what exactly is underlying these defections and rejection of Boris Johnson’s plan? I mean, why is this so unwanted that even members of his own party are rising up against him?

mark landler

Well, the basic fear is that if Britain withdraws from the European Union with no agreement in place, overnight, it will cause a multitude of major problems. You could imagine trucks that transport food and medicine from Europe into Britain being stuck at the border in Calais in France. You could imagine chaos at the airports as people who are used to traveling back and forth without passports suddenly face the prospect of having to show identificaiton. You risk, in short, havoc. Havoc that could really hurt the economy, but could also further polarize the debate over Brexit. So I think that even within Boris Johnson’s party, which remember, is a party that wholeheartedly supports the goal of pulling out of Europe, the idea of pulling out in this disorderly abrupt way just scared a lot of the members of Johnson’s own party. And that fear is what motivated this rebellion. But to these 21 rebels, he’s setting Britain on a course that they feel ultimately will be economically and politically destructive. So they view their role as saying, hey, wait a minute, we want to deliver Brexit. But we want to do it in a responsible way. And this is not the responsible way to do it.

michael barbaro

So how did the prime minister respond to this rebellion, to this move in Parliament?

mark landler

Boris Johnson does two things.

archived recording The ruling conservatives are in turmoil. Boris Johnson has kicked out 21 members of his own party after they voted against same to seize control of the parliamentary agenda.

mark landler

The first thing he does is he carries out what you almost have to call a Stalinist purge of these rebels. He kicks them out of the party.

michael barbaro

Wow.

archived recording I would have to say Boris Johnson really had the worst week. I mean, here he is, he’s new. He lost every one of his first votes in Parliament, which is unprecedented. He purged 21 people in his own party because they didn’t support him. And I think it’s kind of stunning—

mark landler

And it leads to this extraordinary tableau of these conservative M.P.s, some of whom have served for decades, some of whom are elders of the party, giving these emotional farewell speeches in the House of Commons. You have the grandson of Winston Churchill, Nicholas Soames—

archived recording (nicholas soames) Mr. Speaker, I am not standing on the next election. And I am thus approaching the end of 37 years of service to this House, of which I’ve been proud and honored beyond words to be a member. I’m truly very sad that it should end in this way.

mark landler

—speaking very emotionally about all the years he spent in Parliament. You have titans of British politics like Kenneth Clarke, who’s known as the father of the House, a former chancellor of the Exchequer, a man who might well have been prime minister himself—

archived recording Do you recognize your party tonight? archived recording (kenneth clarke) No, it’s been taken over by a rather knockabout sort of character, who’s got this bizarre crashing through philosophy in charge.

mark landler

—talking about a political situation and a party that they no longer recognized.

archived recording (kenneth clarke) The cabinet, which is the most right wing cabinet any conservative party has ever produced, that the prime minister comes and talks total rubbish to—

mark landler

And so it was this really dramatic moment where you saw pillars of the British political establishment just suddenly knocked down in the most brutal fashion.

michael barbaro

Mark, why would the prime minister do this to members of his own party? Basically inflict this kind of damage to his own members at a time when he, I have to imagine, needs them more than ever? Shouldn’t he be cozying up to them?

mark landler

You would think so, but above all, what Boris Johnson wants to do is send a message of ideological purity to his pro-Brexit voters. He wants to tell those voters that I’m going to rid the party of anyone that will stand in the way of getting Britain out of the European Union. So this was less about settling scores with M.P.s, many of whom he’s known well for years, served with. It’s really more about sending this emphatic message to the hardcore pro-Brexit constituency that increasingly drives the conservative party, and saying, we are not going to let anything slow us down, including these internal obstacles.

michael barbaro

So this is very much in keeping with the prime minister’s message that this is now his party, the conservative party. The party of the people, of the Brexiteers. And if you’re not with me, and if you’re not with them, then who needs you?

mark landler

That’s right. It basically is unambiguous. It’s emphatic. He does not leave himself open to any charge of being soft on Brexit, ready to do a deal, ready to compromise.

michael barbaro

So you said that there were two things he did. What was the second?

mark landler

Well, the second thing he did is he called for a snap election.

archived recording (boris johnson) The country must now decide whether the leader of the opposition or I go to those negotiations in Brussels on the 17 of October to sort this out.

mark landler

He said in effect, I think the only way to resolve this impasse is to go to the voters. If they want what I’ve offered, which is a swift exit from Europe, then they will give me a mandate to go to Brussels and do that. If they don’t want that, I’ll be defeated, and someone else can go to Brussels.

michael barbaro

And Mark, the prime minister can do that. He can call for an election whenever it’s politically convenient for him and try to change the composition of the government that might stand in his way.

mark landler

Yeah, that’s one of the prerogative of the prime minister. And in Boris Johnson’s case, he’s viewing this in a couple of ways. One, if he wins, he gets a popular mandate to go to Brussels, and drive a hard bargain with the European Commission, and presumably emerge with a better deal for Britain. On a more practical level, if he wins, they’ll be more conservative party members sitting in Parliament. And some of the bad arithmetic he’s been facing on votes related to Brexit become much easier for him. But there is a wrinkle to all this. Which is that although he has the right to call an election, he needs a 2/3 vote in Parliament to get an election scheduled. So he has the power to call it, but he still needs to bring a majority of the existing Parliament behind him in order to make it happen.

michael barbaro

So do these tactics work for Boris Johnson, expelling disloyal conservatives, and threatening an election that could give him a mandate and weaken the opposition?

mark landler

The short answer is no. Because the very next day, everything goes against him.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. So Mark, Boris Johnson calls for a special election. But it turns out he needs a 2/3 vote from Parliament to make that happen. So what actually happens?

archived recording Opposition leaders have roundly rejected his call for a general election next month.

mark landler

He doesn’t get his 2/3 majority for an election.

archived recording Mr. Johnson declared he had never known an opposition in the history of democracy that’s refused to have an election.

mark landler

So in effect, he’s stuck. He’s boxed in on his big goal of pulling Britain out of the E.U. And he’s not able to move ahead with the election, the thing he was hoping would break the logjam, would give him the mandate.

michael barbaro

So basically, this all backfires.

mark landler

It all backfires. He loses more votes than any incoming prime minister in recent British history. And he finds himself in far worse shape than he was before all this started.

michael barbaro

And that leaves the Brexit situation where exactly?

mark landler

Well, it leaves frankly, everything in a state of paralysis and confusion. By the end of the week in London, one of the questions on people’s minds were would Boris Johnson simply have to resign?

michael barbaro

Really?

mark landler

Well, if you take the prime minister at his word—

archived recording Can you make a promise today to the British public that you will not go back to Brussels and ask for another delay to Brexit? archived recording (boris johnson) Yes. archived recording And would you rather— archived recording (boris johnson) I’d rather be dead in a ditch. I hate banging on about Brexit.

mark landler

He has said he would rather die in a ditch than have to go to Brussels and ask for an extension of Britain’s departure. Yet as things stand today, that’s exactly what Boris Johnson will have to do. And if all of this were not enough, this week of back to back defeats, Boris Johnson had to endure the indignity of his own brother, Jo Johnson, who is also a member of Parliament, and a minister in the government, announcing that he too was going to resign because, as he put it, he was torn between family loyalty and the national interest.

archived recording Tell us when you’re planning to resign— archived recording (jo johnson) I haven’t you got any further comment to say other than it’s been an honor to be an M.P. for Orpington and a minister under three governments. But it’s time to move on. I’ve got to get to work. archived recording Do you think your brother is wrecking the party? archived recording (jo johnson) Sorry, I beg your pardon. See you folks.

mark landler

This is a very tight knit family. So the fact that Jo Johnson felt obliged to take this step really says something about the depth of his concern about a no deal Brexit, about the course that his brother, Boris Johnson, has the country going on.

michael barbaro

So just to be clear, those people opposed to Johnson right now in Parliament, they are insisting on going back to the European Union to negotiate some kind of an exit. And so if Johnson is unwilling to do that, he might be out of office. But I guess the question is, is the E.U. willing to actually enter these kinds of negotiations? Aren’t they pretty fed up with Britain at this point?

mark landler

The E.U. is completely fed up with Britain at this point. They believe that they had months of good faith negotiations with Boris Johnson’s predecessor, Theresa May. They offered her an agreement. She brought that agreement back to Parliament. It was overwhelmingly defeated not once, but several times. And there’s absolutely no indication from European officials that Boris Johnson is going to get a better or different outcome than Theresa May did. And whether or not he holds an election is being largely dismissed in Europe. Their view is we have given Britain the best deal it’s going to get. And if Britain doesn’t want that deal, it’s time for them to simply leave.

michael barbaro

What do you make of this remarkable sequence of events, your first full week as London bureau chief?

mark landler

Well, there’s a couple of ways to look at it. One is that this is just a situation of overwhelming chaos. Confusion, paralysis, finger pointing. So on one level, it looks like dysfunction on a grand scale. But if you dig beyond that, if you sort of look a little closer, what you see is that this was really a week in which the checks and balances in the British political system really worked. You have the prime minister coming in with this hard line, even reckless approach to Brexit, embodied in his decision to suspend debate in Parliament, to sort of circumvent the normal functioning of Parliament by sending the M.P.s home. And then you’ve got this coalition of members of his own party and the opposition coming together to put a brake on the prime minister, to head off some of these most extreme outcomes. And that’s kind of what makes British democracy so unique— that there is this set of conventions of folkways that impose a level of moderation on these proceedings. And we really did see a victory for that in Parliament. A victory that was not at all clear when the House of Commons convened at the beginning of the week.

michael barbaro

So Mark, you’re saying that even though this all looked especially chaotic, that actually, what we just saw was Democratic institutions holding, functioning, and succeeding. But of course, the other way of looking at this, and the way Boris Johnson, I assume, looks at it, is that the will of the people has just been subverted. That they want Brexit with or without a deal. And that Parliament, what you just described as the kind of a sort of functioning of democracy in Britain, just stood in their way.

mark landler

Yeah, that’s right. Boris Johnson’s argument will be I want to go to the people, to put this to the people. And these M.P.s, Britain’s political elite, is standing in the way of popular sentiment. And that will be the core of the message that he brings to the British public as he attempts to turn this situation around.

michael barbaro

And how are you feeling that the British system is holding up compared to the American system that you know so well? If we put these two democracies side by side, how does it stack up?

mark landler

Well, one thing that is very striking to me in covering this rebellion in the Conservative Party is to compare it to the Republican Party in the United States. And there of course, you see barely a handful of Republicans who have stood up to President Trump. This is a Republican Party that is 100 percent under his control. He has engineered a total takeover of the Republican Party. I think Boris Johnson tried in the past two weeks to do the same thing over here. I think this rebellion shows that the party wasn’t going to stand for it. I think it’s also fair to say that Boris Johnson’s having a tougher time in his populist crusade than Donald Trump is in the United States.

michael barbaro

Mark, thank you very much.

mark landler

Thank you, Michael.

michael barbaro

After we spoke with Mark, another member of Boris Johnson’s conservative party resigned in protest. This time, a top minister in his government, Amber Rudd, who said she could not sit by and watch what she called Johnson’s quote, “assault on decency and democracy.” We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. The Trump administration said it was calling off for now the year long negotiations between the U.S. and the Taliban to end the war in Afghanistan after the Taliban took credit for a car bombing in Kabul that killed 12 people, including a U.S. soldier.

archived recording We’re going to walk away from a deal if others try to use violence to achieve better ends of the negotiations. It’s not right, it’s not appropriate. It killed an American. And it made no sense for the Taliban to be rewarded for that kind of bad behavior.

michael barbaro

The negotiations appeared to be on the verge of a peace deal, so much so that leaders of the Taliban and the Afghan government were on their way to Camp David for a secret meeting with Trump. A meeting secretary of State Mike Pompeo defended on Sunday in interviews with CNN and NBC.

archived recording Did anybody bring up whether it was appropriate to have the Taliban set foot on Camp David? archived recording (mike pompeo) Well, there were lots of discussions around that. Camp David has a long history, an important history. And it’s also had an important role in the complex peace negotiations, sometimes with some pretty bad actors, as you well know, Chuck.

michael barbaro