Episode notes:



Visit Susan's website www.susanbhagen.com

Episode Transcript:



intro

paul

Welcome to episode 126 with my guest, therapist Susan Hagen. I'm Paul Gilmartin. this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour. an hour or two of ... [serious voice] all the battles in our heads ... [laughing] ... a little ... a little dramatic reading there ...an hour or two about all the battles in our heads from medically diagnosed conditions and past traumas to everyday compulsive negative thinking.

This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional medical counseling - it's not a doctor's office, more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com it's also the twitter name you can follow me at. So, yeah, go to the website and check it out. you can take surveys, you can join the forum, you can read blogs by me and other people, you can support the show financially, blah, blah, blah.

Today's show is a little on the long side, so I'm going to get right into it and read a little section of an email from a listener named Julian because I think this is great for anybody in the New York area. you might want to grab a pen if you're looking for low-fee therapy or free therapy. Julian writes:

"I want to recommend any one with not a lot of money in the New York area to check out the Columbia University Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research." I might need to go to therapy for just how long that name is. it's the Columbia University Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research. Julian writes: "I went through a lot of trial and error trying to find a free / low cost therapist in New York. These guys take the cake. It's absolutely free. You're promptly placed with a therapist. Medication is covered and available on site at the pharmacy." Well, it doesn't sound like it gets any better than that. so thank you Julian for giving us the heads up on that.

And those of you (and I've mentioned this before) that don't live in large metropolitan areas - actually, even those who do as well - Google "low fee therapy" and the name of your town or city and then you can find places, usually they work on a sliding scale. You can also dial 211 from a land line and that'll connect you to local services.

All right. This is from the "happy moments" survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Jess. She writes: "I suffer from depression, but I'm lucky enough to experience a glimpse of sheer joy and unconditional love just about every day for a few brief moments. I have a 65 pound coon hound mutt dog, and every night before I go to bed he jumps into the bed and lays down. I rub one or both of his ears and sink my face into the fat of his neck and he sighs. Boy, does he sigh. No matter how shitty I'm feeling - no matter how much I may want to drive into a tree - this guy only cares about one thing. right there and then. and that's me, his ear, and our combined whining breathing. And the best part? The part that shoots rays of hope shooting from my cold, dead heart? When I pull my face away, he nudges my chin with his snout until I resume for another minute before he jumps down to go to sleep on the couch. That minute moment when another living being, with no judgments, no ulterior motives and no expectations, just wants to love and feel loved by me - that is the moment of pure joy.

[intro music]

part 1: whaling on a bag, waiting for richard martin

paul: I'm here with Susan Hagen who was referred to me by a listener. You're a therapist in the state of Massachusetts...

susan: psychotherapist, yes.

paul: psychotherapist. You got your master's degree in...

susan: mental health counseling

paul: mental health counseling. We were just talking before we started recording. You're originally from...

susan: Minnesota.

paul: mm-hmm. I hear it.

susan: you can hear it. You'll hear it a little bit more, I think, because I was just home, so... I think I picked it up again.

paul: and what was the environment like that you grew up in?

susan: so I grew up on a farm in northern Minnesota. The name of the town is 'Fertile.'

paul: [laughs]

susan: it's about 600 people. Actually it's growing a little bit now because they're seeing some really good economy now so the town is growing. But I grew up there, and I was raised by a farmer. Actually my father is a beekeeper and a hybrid sunflower producer. Everybody is still there. I still go back home twice a year. I think probably I'll go back home more often because my parents are getting older. But I fly into Fargo, North Dakota when I go home and still go right back there and feel ... Like why wasn't I a farmer?

paul: yeah?

susan: yeah. It's like your first occupation or something you know, in formative years, you kind of go back to that?

paul: yeah.what is it about farming that has that allure? The simplicity? The focus? The work?

susan: probably because of my program background I'd say it's because of the isolation [laughs]

paul: mm-hmm.

susan: but I think that there's so many things to it. You really... There's such a community feeling there. Your neighbors are really your resources. You definitely invest in other people a lot of the year. And when I go home I really see that. I really feel that deeper connection with people. Maybe out of necessity, but also just because - I spend nights - when I'm at home it's just playing cards. Putting together puzzles. It's just ... Home.

paul: that's great.

susan: yeah.

paul: so you shared with me that you've been sober

susan: my sobriety date is september 2nd, 1999

paul: and how do you - congratulations by the way ...

susan: thanks

paul: ... how do you feel that having been through that helps you to be a therapist?

susan: oh, gosh. Well in different levels it helps me to be a therapist. I think I am a non-traditional therapist because of that work that I continually do in my support groups. I think that I probably disclose more of myself to clients. I think that often times I have a real good sense when they really need to hear that I've been in their shoes, or that it gets better, or that there's something more here we need to look at. Any piece of that. To be authentic with my clients I have a real trust that they're on a journey, they're on a path and they were brought to me. And I really feel that their sort of, recovery, I guess, from whatever it is they're bringing in to me, is, is part of our path together. As I am such an equal with them. At the same time I'm also their guide. So I feel really fortunate in that way. I think that there's a gratitude too that comes from my sobriety that is just probably the thing that keeps me more & more positive.

paul: yeah, I always say that if you haven't really experienced the dark, it's hard to fully appreciate the light.

susan: yeah.

paul: it's interesting the more therapists that I interview and talk to, the more I realize that it's kind of a personal thing - how much they choose to disclose of themselves. Some don't want to disclose anything about their personal lives, and others seem to not be afraid to do it. But there always seems to be a judicious sense of how much to reveal yourself. I actually have read some of the surveys where people had a bad experience because their therapist talked about themselves too much. I imagine that would be a tremendous turn-off, and something you would have to be aware of.

susan: yes.

paul: have you ever caught yourself talking about yourself too much?

susan: yes. I have. And I think it's my humor that starts down that road. I'll find myself saying something comical. Not about the issues that we're talking about but something happened. Some sports issue or something like that. I have a license plate that says "New England Patriots - champions." they see that and they see my office doesn't have any pictures of my family members but there's personality there. You know, things come up.

I also had a therapist who was the therapist that taught me the model, eventually. I did that work 14 years ago. That work - the therapist, and I will say her name, Amanda Curtin, who is the founder of this model that I use, is just an amazing person. A genius. Inspired. She taught me the boundaries. She also taught me what to disclose. I had so many questions about relationships, what some of the model is that she uses about triggers. Feeling like I hated my partner, and how could I love my partner and hate my partner at the same time. I'd ask her "do you feel the same way? Do you go through this?" and she would say - I'd first say "can I ask you these questions?" - and she would say "you can ask me anything you want." she would have this really gracious way of telling me something that didn't make me worry about her. Or didn't make me feel like I needed to monitor what I said or change what it was that I was going to reveal to her. She was brilliant - and still is - she's still a therapist in Cambridge. I just think that her modeling for me really taught me how to be professional. How to really - especially with sex abuse survivors - to be really careful of the boundaries. So I know that is ... That sticks in my head when I'm talking to somebody.

But there's definitely a humor piece to me that makes my client feel comfortable and also they've come back with me and said "oh, I didn't really want to hear you say that." that's really great, that they're open enough to tell me. Next to my office, in my big office, I have a "rage room." sometimes when a client is hesitant to get to their anger - they get stuck in sadness because anger is so unacceptable to their family system - I sometimes will have to show them how to be angry. We have this huge bag, a boxing bag that we put in the room, and it's soundproof, carpeted. It's very - it's not a violent looking room, it's very soft. It looks like a sound room like this, actually. I have all those all over my room. And sometimes they're so hesitant to pick up the bat and start whaling at the bag that I'll say, "you know what? I can do that for you." so I'll grab the bat and I'll hit. I'll look at them and say, "how do you feel about watching your therapist take a bat and hit the bag?" Sometimes, I will have clients who'll really break down. Didn't like to see it, didn't like that at all, and then we stop.

But most of the time I'll have them just watch their inner children - I do inner child work. What I tell them to do is remind their inner child that no one is getting hurt here. That this is actually an appropriate way to get out our anger. So what I'll do is I'll take the bat and I'll hit the bag and sometimes I'll say "okay, now I'm gonna swear. [laughing] "god damn it, son of a bitch" something like that. Somehow, they'll break through and go "gimme that bat." then they'll start whaling away on the bag. And it's not that they're hitting the person. They're really putting the anger on the right person, but the bag doesn't represent the person. The bag is a channel to get this anger out. Instead of putting it on the people around you in the present. When you're dumping all this anger out on everybody else but it really belongs to a certain group of people or two people or one person. So we take them and get them to do that and eventually I will have people who will say "I'm just getting out of work, Susan, can I just come by and hit the bag?" [laughing] and I'm like, right on, that's great.

Like they start to know that this is going to come out on my spouse if I don't get this out somehow. That's a big part of the model that I use. Well, it's not a big part - there's a lot of pieces that I want to share with you. Getting through the sadness and getting at that anger - showing that inner child that it's okay to be angry. Because ultimately that inner child is watching you to see if it's going to be okay to be angry. Is this an okay feeling? And then you demonstrate it and really reassure him or her that it's okay. Nobody's getting hurt. This is the appropriate way. So it's really an amazing process.

paul: what is the name of the model? Does it have a name?

susan: it doesn't really have a name. We call it 're-parenting' or 'grief group.' I explain it as adults who see that their past experiences in childhood are still affecting them negatively today. And that's a long way of... I've asked Amanda "name it, give it a name!" I don't know, I think it's ...

paul: I kind of love that she hasn't named it.

susan: yeah!

paul: there's something that always puts me off a little bit, like when somebody comes out with a book that "here's my system for this." it almost seems like it's excluding stuff that's come before it. It seems really proprietary and I think mental health and recovery is so multifaceted. To claim to be able to put it in a single box...

susan: it's such a shot in the dark, paul.

paul: yeah

susan: it really is. I could tell you what I do and how I believe in it and I get so motivated to talk about it. But the truth is, it's like, I don't really know how this works. But if we kind of feel our way in the dark we sort of - this seems to go better than that - or in this case. Whereas something else will work completely differently for another client.

The model that I use is based on group work. Groups can be various sizes but it's usually four men and four women, all adults, of course.

paul: it's a key party !

susan: yeah, exact... Oh, gosh, yeah. It's, um. No.

paul: how counterproductive would that be, to ... To...

susan: nope.

paul: I'm so afraid that people are going to think that I think I'm an expert. And I think that's one of those things that I like to throw in there, to a) sometimes bring a little levity to it, but b) to say "don't start taking me too seriously." You know, I'm not a professional. I 'm a jackass that tells dick jokes, who has been through a lot of shit in his lifetime, but the bottom line is, I just like talking to people. I'm fascinated by people's pasts & their presents and how they're dealing with their shit. That's kind of like where I'm coming from.

susan: so that isn't Richard Martin...

paul: ha ha, oh, you've seen Richard Martin?

susan: I love him

paul: yeah. That's my picket sign.

susan: "you can tell how people vote by the way they dress." [laughs]

paul: you really can, in a lot of ways.

susan: I think that's so funny.

paul: you really can - or at least he thinks -

susan: that's Richard Martin, by the way, that's not me.

paul: yeah, he believes that.

susan: he's great, though, I have to say

paul: oh, thank you. For those of you that don't know, Richard Martin is a satirical character that I perform sometimes. He's a very right-wing intolerant guy that has a lot of issues that he can't see, and um, takes it out on the less fortunate.

part 2: paul's inner child

paul: but getting back to what we were talking about. So, talk more about the models. You do inner child work. and is there a specific - and you do group. Four on four people. They put their keys in the bowl.

susan: [laughing]

paul: they wear something comfortable. One of them eases their pants off. They put on some smooth jazz. And everybody goes at it.

susan: oh, god.

paul: it's not too late for you to back out.

susan: I am really wondering.

paul: it is not too late for you to back out.

susan: I need to reassure my clients, something, right here...

paul: by the way, we can take your name out, call you something else...

susan: [laughing]

paul: if you'd be more comfortable doing this anonymously. And I'm totally serious. we can take your...

susan: no.

paul: okay. I just like to give people that option so they feel more free to speak openly. [laughing] I don't want to destroy your career. and your credibility.

paul: so, you get a group, it's generally four men, four women...

susan: the group varies - I mean it just depends. When I'm screening people to do group, it's just a gut feeling. Like, these people would together really well, and the majority of them need to start, and so we go forward.Some people drop out. Usually there's a couple people who drop out, and that's fine.

paul: Do they say why? They're uncomfortable?

susan: All kinds of different reasons. When I did the group with Amanda, two people dropped out. One of them dropped out because he couldn't get his addiction under control. And in the group, you really need to have your sobriety under control. Sobriety in a lot of different areas. And the group actually...

paul: And what was his addiction?

susan: Sex addiction. But it was so self damaging. And I do know that sexual abuse is damaging, but usually those people can stay in the group and they work on ... we put them on a 28 day program, we really work on some behavior stuff. Although I feel that the model doesn't really focus on behavior as much as it really focuses on the damage caused by those formative years and then how it kind of comes out in the present. And using the present as windows to the past, those triggers, and going back, really seeing it, freeze frame. The group is a laboratory really, to be able to freeze...

paul: Capture those moments, and examine them...

susan: Yes, capture those moments and use them as windows and really go in to those places in the past, those feelings, that unfinished business with mom and dad. Or the unfinished business with your caretakers.

paul: It must be terrifying for some of those people to get vulnerable in that environment at first.

susan: Well, what happens is the group is a three year commitment. Two and a half to three year commitment, depending on the size. So you have to gradually build trust among the group. The first days is to do a genogram. Each group - we meet every week, it's an hour and a half group - and each member has one whole night to tell everybody what the dynamics of the family were. Beginning with grandparents and then the parents and then the client and the siblings. And really talk about the dysfunction. Who was a resource, who was an alcoholic, who was a workaholic. You could put teachers in there, if there was anybody outside who could see you and those people who helped you, those people who didn't help you, those people who abused you. Those kinds of things, all that's on the genogram. That's the first initial introduction to each other and our past. I don't include me, I'm the leader, but each person in the group does a genogram. As we go along we start to see the stuff that comes out of those genograms and those family dynamics that were explained. Sometimes people know right away that 'my family was dysfunctional'. Sometimes people come in and they say 'I had the greatest family. Look at this.' Mom, everybody looked clean, and then as you start scratching the surface, you start seeing... Ohh, hmmm.

paul: I am constantly amazed at the degree to which the brain will bury stuff to tell you that everything was ok in the past. Cause I can look at other people and go 'Can't you see?' But I couldn't see that in my own life, until I was almost 50 years old.

susan: Two years ago, right?

paul: A little over a year ago.

susan: I actually listened to that interview you had with Lynn Chen. I listened to the beginning of it again, the second time. And took that as if it were a survey. And I thought I would really love to talk to you about some of that stuff. Not to be a therapist, just to scratch

paul: Hey, if it has to do with me, I'd love to hear about it.

susan: Yeah, cause I just think you articulated it, the pain of what came out of it, so well that it's an opportunity. That stuff is there, it's right there on the surface.

paul: That's funny, I just happened to have met with her again yesterday. Cause I find her really easy to talk to - there's a lot of people I find it easy to talk to - but maybe it's because she's a sex abuse survivor. She was just so easy to talk to about it. I went over to do her podcast yesterday. After we stopped taping we were talking about stuff from my past. This kind of epiphany hit me, that I don't have any shame about the stuff that happened to me anymore. I used to because I blamed myself. Then I got to this place where I could see that the blame wasn't on me. I was a kid and even the acting out that I did as a kid, in reaction to it, I could see. Oh! I didn't do that cause I was a dirty little kid, I did that cause I had feelings that were overwhelming. Now the shame has shifted to how I feel when I talk about it with certain women who kind of fill that compassion role that I wanted my mom to have. I sometimes begin to become sexually triggered, and kind of turned on, and then I go to a place of "you're being manipulative, you're being disingenuous," but there's also a catharsis in feeling that compassion and acceptance from them. So I talked to her about that yesterday, and said it's weird that my shame has now shifted to this. I'm talking about that now in the hopes that that will release my shame from how my body responds when I talk about it. What are your thoughts on that? Is that normal for somebody to have that?

susan: Yes. That's absolutely normal. From what I know about your past, I think that what he, that little boy - and of course I go to the inner child, because he's the one that's actually reacting. He's the one that's looking for the mom that'll finally be a mom. So when he sees somebody or hears somebody who identifies and has that open heart - of course, there's a reaching out. I want her. That makes so much sense. And because of the sexual confusion, that makes absolute sense. You were set up for that. That was absolutely a setup. That reaction that you have, not being able to articulate it, but that visceral reaction, "there she is," is actually what you want to start to do as reparenting that little boy. You a actually want to start talking to him about that reaction. Because that shame - shame is a fear of disconnection, basically - so that shame that comes up, you want to start talking to him about "I totally understand why you feel this way. I'm here for you now. I'm the one who keeps you safe." And you've talked a little bit about that. You understand that concept. Of the adult parent and reparenting him, really coming in there for him and making sure that he knows that that should not have happened. And being angry that that happened. Showing him that anger is the right reaction for him. Not at mom, mom is gone. The mom that's today is totally different - she triggers you back there because she's similar, right? But she's not the same person. So that is where you want to go, is really focusing on giving that little boy his day in court, is really what you want to do. You actually walk through that, saying "absolutely, that feeling - you were set up for that reaction in the present, but we need to go to the past and talk about what happened. Awareness isn't enough. You actually have to go back and you have to change the experiences. And that is, I believe, through a lot of - it's like a gestalt therapy, but you really have to actively work on - and you're probably doing that with your therapist. You bring in the empty chair. You put a picture of - in your case, your mom - put a picture of your mom in the chair, and start talking to her. And then have a group of people or have your therapist start talking to her, too. And really being a witness for you, saying "that was wrong, what you did to this little boy. He deserves so much more." And get at those emotions and charge that thing with emotion so you can start shifting. Getting at a deeper shift. We're not looking for a behavior change we're looking at symptom. We're looking at the cause of stuff. Getting in there. And learning takes place when there's a strong emotion to hook to it. Awareness isn't enough. We know that. You can have people who are aware all day long of what they do and their coping mechanisms and how they do this because of this that happened in the past. It doesn't change anything.

paul: I completely agree, because I have felt progress from processing it in support groups and therapy. I think a mistake a lot of people make - I see so many surveys of people that think that they're broken. And they think that going back into the past is just to make the person who abused them feel bad. And I say, we don't do it to make our parents suffer, we do it so we can process the feelings we've been running from so we can stop suffering.

susan: Right. Exactly.

paul: But, it's so confusing because the emotions that come up when you're processing it, and you have connections to people, you get these conflicting emotions that come up where it's cathartic but also triggering at the same time. And you're so used to always blaming yourself and saying my body is bad, my body is wrong, I'm inherently dirty. That's the first place that you go to because you're afraid that you're doing something wrong. I'm so afraid that I'm not doing it right, that I'm just re-traumatizing myself by talking about it with someone that brings up complicated feelings in me. Is that the case? Am I re-traumatizing myself?

susan: this is what I understand the stage that you're in as far as what I've heard you talk about in the bits & pieces I've heard. You're actually in a transition period of letting go of the old belief system that your mother put in place in that house. And that is ... Herculean to do. It's not impossible. You have to do it with another person. You can't heal in isolation, we know that. WE know that, right?

paul: oh, absolutely.

susan: so, to leave a belief system that was part of your survival - it had to be your survival, right - who had the power?

paul: my mom.

susan: you didn't have the power. Right. You can't get in the car and drive away, when you're a kid, right?

paul: right.

susan: it changes everything, when you have one person who has the power and a kid in it. So there's a belief system there that's totally based on survival. That makes it even deeper. So that you are now moving through a transition of letting go of that belief system. And you have to replace a new belief system, but the confusion that happens, from that inner child's point of view... what the heck's going on? If I don't have this belief system, what do I have? I have you?

paul: It was the most painful when I let go of that. When I suddenly saw my mom for who she was and let go of that. Untethered is the only word I can think of. I said I feel like an astronaut that ... the lifeline to the spaceship has been clipped and I'm floating without any sense of where anything is. I don't know what's up, what's down, what's left, what's right. Do I trust myself, am I full of shit? Where is the truth? And I wanted to die. I literally wanted to die. It felt like somebody took a bulldozer and just carved out my chest. It was the most pain and confusion I've ever felt, and it lasted months. And there's still some stuff in there. It's much much smaller than it was, but I'm still confused in many ways as to am I doing this right?

susan: right.

paul: I would imagine that's pretty common for people

susan: yes. It's common, and what I reassure you, and as with all my clients, is, you're going through a grieving process. You are grieving the loss of a normal childhood. Which is, I think, the biggest loss in someone's life. To realize how it should have been. It's just a lot of work, it takes time, it takes understanding of your partner, it takes people to call to say "what am I doing this for? Why am I not drinking? Why am I not getting high?" This is so painful. Is it true? Is it worth it? And just going to people. Sometimes I have clients put things in their pockets, and say, that's right, this is why I am doing this, because when you start going through that confusion when you don't have any - when you're not tethered to anything - well, it's probably the thing you've been avoiding all your life. Right? I mean that's - you're going into the pain.

paul: I remember shoving the thought down at seven years old or eight years old. And thinking that this doesn't feel right. It feels like she's using me, and then thinking a mom would never do that. A mom would never do that.

susan: right. Right. Right. And that's where you stop listening to your inner cues. You had a choice, and that was the only choice you had because she had the power. You have a dysfunctional belief system that you're living in, and it's ... whacko. And you have this gut that's telling you that this is wrong. Who are you gonna believe? Who's got the power? So you end up having to repress it and shove it down, and keep it down there. So when you do finally let go of that belief system, those inner cues have been kind of like - they're there - but you have to re-learn how to listen to them. So you have to make mistakes and take chances, and you have to get out there and really ... risk. You have to risk making mistakes. Sometimes I have clients who are perfectionists. And we do a 28 day program of making mistakes. Every day they call me with 5 mistakes that they're celebrating. It's like that. We're just getting at - I can make mistakes and they're mine and they're beautiful, and that's how I learn. But these inner children? They're terrified.

paul: it's also terrifying too, when your mistakes are around sex. When it has to do with sex and your sexuality. There's few things as shaming to me as feeling like I crossed a line in talking about a subject to somebody that I might have been inappropriate, or I might have put too much out there, been too revealing. I mean, I feel it in my body, like my face is flush of "oh, you're sick. You repulse other people." Intellectually I know that's not the case, but when that feeling comes up in my body and I experience that sometimes when I'm in the middle of talking with somebody who I feel very safe with. It's like I'm drawn to that conversation like a magnet. Like here's some compassion. Here's somebody that has that look on their face.

susan: there's a couple of things here. One of them is the feeling that comes up, and the other is talking too much about it. That feeling of shame, what did I do that for. The feeling you're getting, it's almost like you're not getting triggered, but you're opening up to this possibility. Is that person gonna do what I've always needed? So there's a little boy that wants to get that going. Cause I need the healing.

paul: the hug after I talk about that with somebody is ... I want it to last forever, I feel so good. And it's not a sexual hug. I'm not thinking this is what it would feel like to have sex with this person. It's not that at all. That feels very non-sexual to me, just like, I feel like I'm eleven years old. I guess I feel a little bit ashamed. Cause what grown man wants to feel like he's eleven years old again?

susan: right. The shame that you feel is familiar. It's the familiar, right? Oh, I shouldn't feel this way. But everybody else kind of colluded with it. So it was wrong. And angry at your mother. That's the piece. But when you're in the present, and you're having this reaction to somebody in the present. It's so much about having that dialog with him. Really re-parenting him so that the shame isn't there, and that you actually get the comfort from YOU..

paul: so do I stop the conversation with the person when I feel that feeling? And then go off by myself and say, "it's okay, you felt that."

susan: No, actually what I think is - it's not that you're not doing this with fifteen different people, right?

paul: well, I've talked about it with a lot of people, in support groups, men, women...

susan: right

paul: but I only feel it with certain women. But also the catharsis, or the feeling of feeling validated - especially from women that are moms - is just so - I feel it so deeply.

susan: right. And I think it's so much to do with 'somebody's finally seeing me.' Somebody's finally seeing me. And you are seen. And that is healing, to have somebody see you. Your partner, or somebody who really understands what it is that you're saying. So to be seen for this kid, and for you, is huge. And it is healing. To be seen is - to be given that attention in order to be seen - is amazing, it's healing...

paul: that's, that's ... go ahead, finish.

susan: but there is an adult piece to this. And that is, the adult needs to step in and kind of guide this inner child. You don't want to be run by your inner child. Not because of exterior ... I mean there are some cues that we have from the outside that we need to follow, and that is okay. But when you have people who are open to you and that want to listen... that's a gift.

paul: okay, and I totally understand about the re-parenting thing. And that's one of the things that I'm working on. Protecting myself from people that are toxic to me. I did this a couple weeks ago, I pulled out a picture of myself when I was that age that it happened. And I talked to it. And I broke down and started crying. And I told him, you didn't deserve that, you're a good boy. And I could see what an innocent kid I was. And it made me so sad that that kid was exploited. So do I ... I know I don't have the conversations with people in place of that. That I still need to be doing the re-parenting. But I guess what I'm asking is - is it counterproductive for me to still have those moments of wanting to be felt and seen and heard, despite the fact that it sometimes brings up confusing feelings in me?

susan: No. There's nothing wrong with that.

paul: okay

susan: There's nothing wrong with that.

paul: that only took me a half hour to ask that question

susan: the piece of shame that comes up though is a window. You want to take that as an opportunity to really work on - and I'm not saying that - what I use with the group is, through the whole two and a half, three years, everybody has to be dialoging with their inner child. And dialoging is this amazing tool to get at that unconscious repressed stuff. What dialoging is, is that the adult is the dominant hand, and the inner child is the non-dominant hand. Let's say if you're right-handed, when you talk to this child, you write with your right hand. "Hello, I feel you're upset about something, can you tell me what it's about?" and the inner child hopefully is responsive, and he starts to write back to you with your non-dominant hand. And that accesses the other side of the brain. Then as he starts to talk to you, you begin to ask him, what about this present thing that happened, what is it that reminds you of in the past. And then he tells you, 'well, it was when...' and it's however he says this is what happened. Mom did this and I didn't like it. And you write with your parent hand, what it was that should have happened. And it's not only that, he can get at ... for example, if you're hesitant to go to a party. And you're invited to it, and you've said yes, but he doesn't want to go. You don't want to go, and you don't know why. There seems to be a pattern here. What you want to do is use that, that uncomfortable feeling - it's not that you're staying away from unsafe people, it's just that you're uncomfortable being around these people. There's something coming up. Use that to sort of go in - to what was it that was uncomfortable? Why were you put into an uncomfortable place? Those kinds of things. He'll start telling you what happened in detail - things that you don't remember. Things that are...

paul: really?

susan: ...things that are shocking. I did this work. It was absolutely shocking.

paul: with your own self personally?

susan: Yes, yes. I did this work with Amanda Curtin. Our group took four years. Some are sicker than others, right? [laughing] We did dialoging throughout the whole thing. There are many, well, not many but there are three stages or phases of this group. Within the group we do experientials, which means that the group re-enacts a scene from childhood. And you can pick out of sixteen experientials how you want to approach this scene that really needs to be revisited. Some people choose to do a trial. Some people choose to do a rescue scene. Some people decide to write a letter. Throwing plates against the wall. There's all kinds of things that try to get at the emotion of the situation from back then, then work on it through that. And you have seven, eight witnesses to what happened and then they all talk to mom & dad as well. They are absolutely there for you and so you have this amazing situation where people are talking about what happened to you and you're the focus. That's the experiential part of it. The dialoging goes throughout. Because this inner child is reacting to people in the group. Because the group gets closer and now all of a sudden we have intimacy. People are too close. I don't like that one over there. I don't like the way he looks at me or I don't like the way she comes late to group all the time, why does she even come to group if she doesn't want to - all this stuff starts popping, and that's where it becomes a laboratory where you start saying okay, this is a trigger, so we're gonna stop - we call it 'bump work' - you look at what does this behavior of somebody else remind you of in the past. You're seeing where it goes, how you're triggered in the present but how it's actually coming up from the past. Any time you're more than annoyed, is when we say you're triggered. It could be you feel extremely self-righteous, you know, I'm better than these people. You're shut down - sometimes you shut down. Sometimes you're feeling super angry...

paul: is feeling aroused and ashamed at the same time , clearly, fall under the category of triggered?

susan: it is, yes. Because your body is really what houses all those memories. It's showing you - your body is showing you something, it's telling you something. There's information there. So yes. I think that you're awareness of it is getting you deeper and deeper into what is this about? I know that you'll find it.

paul: I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that it's about being seen. When I did the episode with Jessica Zucker, Dr. Zucker, a while back, that's what she said and that was a breakthrough for me. I think that's ... as I was talking to Lynn yesterday I was trying to imagine what it is that the little kid in me gets from having these conversations, why it's so triggering. I said to her, I feel like when I'm around a woman who fills that mother role for me, but in a good way - the mother that I always wanted - I feel like, when I talk about what happened to me, I feel like I'm taking her hand, we're getting into a time machine, we're going back to those three or four instances where something happened, and she's witnessing what happened. But she's on my side, and she's protecting me. But she's also seeing me at my absolute most vulnerable. When I'm naked, when I'm in a confused state of feeling a hundred different things as that little kid. So I think that is what's triggering to me is that it's so - for lack of a better word - naked. It's - the very thing that I've buried the deepest in my entire life is there and somebody is standing there but they're giving me all the feelings that I always wanted.

susan: Yeah. And that experience of being lovable even when somebody sees you. Which is not what you had. You couldn't be yourself and be loved.

paul: so it's normal for that to express itself in sexual excitement.

susan: yes. In fact the therapist in the group therapy, I'm modeling the good mother. There is that piece to it that's really true - I'm modeling what's supposed to happen when you're ... when that happens, that transference, that projection, that stuff happens. People will finally be seen by me, and why didn't my mother see me? The reaction can be very different. Some of them hook on, and that makes perfect sense. The key is to give them a tool - and I hate that word tool - give them something that's so valuable that they realize, I love me - she loves me but I love me - I'm really loveable. And that happens over time.

paul: I'm moving towards that place. I'm getting to that place. I think that's why I want to talk about this shame because I know that it stands between me and loving myself. Because it's so hard to love yourself if you feel that shame. I know intellectually that I shouldn't feel that shame. But when you feel something in your body, it's not intellectual

part 3: the tricky family

susan: right. Your body is what tells you the truth. That's why when people come to me, they'll say sometimes, "I don't remember much. I don't remember anything."

paul: cause they're not in their body.

susan: right. They're in their head.

paul: yeah

susan: and I'll start to ask them - you know, memory is the least reliable when it comes to this stuff. It's really your body sensations and your feelings. Your behavior. The stuff that's coming out in the present. The relationship - not having a deeper relationship - that's the stuff that tells you, hmm... there's something going on here. Because that stuff doesn't just come out of nowhere. The stuff that's coming out of the surveys - sometimes there's no connection to the past. And they think it's just coming out of nowhere. And that makes sense that we'd think that. Because we don't remember anything happening. But it's so obvious. So dialoging sometimes can get to the place where you start hearing. Or like you did, you were finally ready, you were at the point where you were ready. And what's interesting to me is to watch you do the podcasts as if you are readying yourself for healing in a way that's just like ... you know how you see a bird and it's making a nest and it doesn't know why it's making a nest but it's frantically making a nest. That's what we do, so much of what we do is unconscious. And we move toward healing, if we can get to those places where we - and there's a sense of risk that we have to take, we have to walk into a therapists office. And that is a risk. And then we have to get vulnerable, not only do we walk in then we have to go ... those are the things that ... it's life saving. It's life changing.

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susan: that's the unresolved stuff, that's the unfinished business. So you've got her, and as far as her willingness is today, you get to express what it is that you need. But there's also a place where you have to parent this little boy. Cause the outside...

paul: so I just have to make sure I do both.

susan: yes. Because...

paul: where was all this shit when I was at therapy on Monday? [laughing] All these issues came up like on Tuesday!

susan: [laughs] you know nothing happens for... everything happens for a reason, right? Because when you get to the place where that little boy is integrated, where that stuff is coming up and it's getting healed. People on the outside can love you the way they want to, the way they need to because I love myself enough. So that my husband can love me in whatever way he wants to. Sometimes it's conditionally, sometimes it's unconditionally. But it doesn't throw me into that spin. Where now I'm miserable cause I'm questioning whether I deserve something or this kind of stuff. So I totally get what you're saying. Where is it me, and where is it - what can I ask her for? That's a great partner question.

paul: are you comfortable talking about the things that you bury?

susan: I'm not so comfortable talking about the things that I worked on in my group therapy. Only because of this. But - a one on one? I'm totally comfortable with that.

paul: well, we'll get coffee after this

susan: yes I'd love to. I really would, Paul. You're amazing. I have to say I picked out a survey that was a reaction to you specifically and that was really why I picked that survey out. Because this podcast is helping people. And I don't say that lightly. It's incredible, the way that people are responding to this from what I'm reading. And it's interesting - you don't - you don't really know how people are responding, well I suppose you do because you get all the...

paul: I get such beautiful emails from people. You know on dark days it absolutely is like - and I don't know if it's healthy or not to depend on that just to bring light into my day - but it does. It really does.

susan: I need it. I need my clients to .. Sometimes they say really inappropriate praise. [laughing] And I try not to react but ... of course.

paul: the thing that can be difficult sometimes is people that want more than you can give. For instance, there was an article that The Onion AV Club did where they have podcasters pick their three favorite episodes of their podcast. Of course, I made the mistake of reading the comment section. They were all nice but one person was like "I stopped listening to his podcast cause my wife left a message on his Skype number. And she tends to talk a little bit and she left three messages. And when he replied to her he said at first he thought that she ... he wasn't going to reply to her cause he thought she was crazy." I immediately wanted to defend myself, and I didn't post it on there. If I get into replying to every single person that thinks I was a dick to them... but you know this person had left, you know she left three messages. Each of them were ten minutes long. And I listened to all ten minutes - all thirty minutes of these and responded to this person. But because I said "at first I thought you were crazy..." If I thought this person was certifiably like out of touch with reality, I probably would have stopped listening after a minute or two. I will get emails occasionally from somebody that's like six pages single spaced, the government is after me, et cetera, et cetera. And I can't read that it just sucks the life out of me. But there are instances where it really tests my ability to be compassionate for myself and to put that part of myself away that is terrified that somebody's going to say something bad about me.

susan: right. And there's to parts to that. Yes, there's something about that that falls on fertile ground in you. And that's an opportunity for you. The second piece is that, unfortunately, you haven't had the training that I've had, when you can know that it's not about you. Of course, there's a piece that always feels like, "Ohh, why did I say that?" But the truth is that's why I feel for you because you don't have that, "ok, they're responding. It's their world." And we're always responding to our perception of what's going on out here. I even create the perception that I think is happening... you know all that stuff.

paul: mm-hmm. And I have gotten emails from people that are very negative towards me. And I immediately know, oh this is their shit. They're filtering me through their shit. And I'm able to see that sometimes with the ones that fall in that gray area ... can bring that shame up. "Oh see, you really are a bad person. You just do this podcast for attention." But I don't believe that's true but it comes up in a flicker and it's not comfortable. So, one of the things I asked you to do was just go through surveys and pick out surveys that struck a chord with you, that you wanted to talk about...

susan: right. And I want to do them service but some of them I want to make quick comments. In relation to the model that I use and the therapy that I do in Cambridge. Let me just go into them. So the first one is Mr. A.

paul: which survey is this from?

susan: this is from 'shouldn't feel this way' and it's Mr. A and he's mail and he's straight. I grabbed him at the last minute because I thought "uh-oh, I have too many females." But I looked at his a second time when I was down here at Pete's coffee and I said "Wow, there's something important here," and we just talked about it a little bit - it's that ... I'm gonna read it. So. "What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?" and he said "that he did his best.'How does writing that make you feel? It doesn't. If you had a time machine how would you use it? You can't change history you can only observe it - absolute beginning, the formation of the universe..." which is kind of cool... So number 4, "Please write as many of these as you feel like. I'm supposed to feel (blank) about (blank) but I don't, I feel (blank)." And he wrote "I'm supposed to feel grateful about growing up in a non-abusive household, but I don't. I feel like I have no valid reason to feel hopeless and suicidal for such a lengthy period of time. I'm supposed to feel emotional about important & meaningful occasions with my loved ones but I don't. I feel empty. I'm supposed to feel interested about finding a mate but I don't. I feel terrified and lost. How does it make you feel to write your real feelings out? I feel nothing. Do you think you're abnormal for feeling what you do? Yes." You are not abnormal, I have to say. You're actually part of the 'tricky family.' I call it the 'tricky family.' That is the family that looks really good.

paul: that's exactly what I was raised in. And I felt exactly like he felt when I was 24 years old. Because my tool was to shut down.

susan: right. And that's ... I think sometimes ... and this is just me talking with you in a relaxed way ... I think sometimes the tricky family is the most difficult.

paul: I agree.

susan: Because it's just ... I have people, I told you, that come in and they know. "My father was a drunk, and beat the shit out of me, and abused me and my mother, ... and I know, in part, that it wasn't my fault." Right? That I don't take responsibility. But the tricky family is ... this is exactly what he says, is, "I'm a piece of shit for feeling hopeless and feeling suicidal." Absolutely the opposite. This is where we see that memories aren't reliable. At all. What is reliable is your body sensations and your feelings. Your patterns of behavior. Your beliefs and information about your family. And if you have a therapist that can dig a little deeper into the true story ...

paul: when you say his memories aren't ...

susan: they are the LEAST reliable.

paul: least reliable, in that they're mis-remembering? Or they're not remembering things because their tool was to shut down and not process?

susan: well, I don't know that. What I assume is (pauses) The loyalty from a child is from another world. I've never seen anything like it. Finally I think they stopped asking children to come into the witness stand. Because the loyalty is, well, it's just out of this world. So to start and experience what you experience by taking away the belief system, and be left with nothing for a time, is, that's the risk. That's what you're up against.

paul: so when you say that the memories may not be accurate, because they tend to be more sugar coated than remembering them as more dramatic than they were.

susan: right. Remember what we talked about earlier, is that the power of the mind to not go there.

paul: to create what you have to survive in, you have to paint it, in a way, in a color that is survivable.

susan: yes. Right. And so everything has to match that crazy dysfunctional system. So these poor children end up being so twisted. Of course they're not feeling anything. Of course he can't feel anything. I would say...

paul: let me just interject, how often do you think a highly manipulative parent is involved in that kid that wants to shut down? Because I feel like that is often the result. Because a parent who is really good at manipulating will create a reality on the outside that is different than the reality that the child is experiencing in their body. And there becomes a war between their body and their mind, and to shut down or numb out is the only way they can handle it. That is what was the case with me, and I get to feeling that is the case with people that don't know what they're feeling.

susan: exactly, because what they're up against is the family myths.

paul: and the painful truth that's too hard to face.

susan: right and that manipulating by the parent, it doesn't have to be this kind of like, you know, thinking about "what do I say that they'll believe, that this ..."

paul: they probably don't even know they're manipulating!

susan: regardless, yes, they probably don't even know ... I am so used to not ... when I work with clients, we tend to not try and figure out what parents are going through. We really want to take a window of time and understand this little boy. And what he went through. Because so many times, part of the denial is just saying "you know what? Mom and Dad didn't have it any better, they had it worse, I'm so lucky..." So that's one of the family myths, is, "we're better than everybody else." That's another family myth that gets lodged in there. So you CAN'T be vulnerable with other people.

paul: and the other camouflage, I think, is having your practical needs met. And thinking that everything must be okay, cause, you know, I had my college paid for and ... but I grew up in an environment that was emotionally ... poverty. It was emotional poverty. But you can ... if you've never experienced emotional richness you don't know that you experienced emotional poverty. And that's why therapy and support groups are so awesome because when you DO experience emotional abundance, it's fucking amazing. There was a guy in my support group last night who has 100 days sober and he is just now, now that he's not numb, he's just now beginning to notice all the beauty that has always been around him. And he had tears rolling down his face. We had this awesome hug at the end of this support group ... it was like my favorite thing in the world to see the light come on in somebody's eyes when they realize that there is an abundance of beautiful emotion and beauty to be had in the world. And it's always been there, we've just been too numb to see it because our coping mechanisms have blocked us from it.

susan: right. He hasn't lived in his body and he's starting to melt into his body. I mean, there's nothing more terrifying, and more beautiful.

paul: yeah, because the pain we feel is more intense but the joy we feel is more intense too.

susan: exactly. It's like we numb out the bad but we're also numbing out the good. So all of sudden you get color. You get color.

paul: and the good thing too, is you'll now have tools to process the pain so it doesn't sit murky and heavy and what feels like it's going to be forever. There's a way to process it when there's that emotional abundance in our lives. So that even the bad, though you may feel it more intensely, it doesn't seem to linger as much. At least that's been my experience.

susan: Can I ask you, you said "because we can process it." Tell me about that. What does it mean to process it?

paul: picking up the phone, talking to somebody, saying I'm in pain. I want to get drunk. I want to go look at pornography. I want to lay down and never wake up. Writing. Journaling. Praying. Meditating. Talking to God, saying "I'm so fucking sick of this path you have me on. Why? Why are you doing this to me? I'm so tired. I'm so tired. Fuck you."

susan: yes, that's the way we process, we don't process in isolation. Processing in isolation, yes. But we have to connect. Connection. In fact, that's why shame is so horrifying because it's a fear of disconnection. Because life is connection. And I hate to say that like a bumper sticker. But it's so true.

paul: I was just thinking the exact same thing this morning. I was thinking, I want to - there's the happy moments survey on the website - and I would love some of those great moments to go viral and I was thinking, people's perception of what happiness is, is so narrow. I think when we live in an ego-based society when everything's about money and status and power, happiness is so often defined in terms of victories. And once you get into therapy and support groups and begin to have to heal yourself cause you're gonna die otherwise, you begin to realize happiness is usually defined - at least for me - through a feeling of purpose and meaning and connection. It's awesome because it's so much easier to find that than to find social victory. And that's - if I get anything through to people on the podcast, I want it to be that - that if you heal this happiness that you think is dependent on you becoming rich or finding the perfect spouse is an illusion. It's really about connecting to the person sitting next to you in a way that was inaccessible before because you didn't have the words or the confidence or the vulnerability to describe what it is that you're feeling.

susan: Right. In fact, that whole society idea of 'events' in your life make you happy - exterior events - it's really a distraction, it's not true at all. Events are the symptom - events are the result. You don't really even - you can't even seek out a partner - as you know - we can't even seek out a partner or a spouse. We have to go inside. And then as you go inside and you do the work that's required, then the outside starts to change. There's no outside change without an inside change. I believe that - obviously you can hear that in my voice - but it's so true. I have clients who say "I really want to get a good job." Or, "I really want to get a good partner." You know, those kinds of things that are so true and so important, but the focus isn't about the hunt.

paul: That's the dessert, that's not the main course.

susan: Right. That's the result of. So I always say it's the work inside. And that's so not appetizing when you're somebody who really wants to get out of your skin, it's like ...

paul: When you hate yourself...

susan: "I want to hunt things down!"

paul: Yes. You want me to think about the person I hate ... more?

susan: Yeah!

paul: What the fuck?! I mean when I hear ... parenting, you need to self parent more and you need to re-parent ... I fuckin' hate it.

susan: Yeah!

paul: I fuckin' hate it. You say 'inner child' and my eyes roll,

susan: I know.

paul: and I just wanna go, "Oh, grab a crystal and go fuck yourself."

susan: But I gotta tell you something. I totally am the last one to want to say 'inner child' but ... it works. I can not tell you how splitting, and really seeing the adult and the inner child ... but I get it ... it's so cheesy, and to me it's like God humbling me, because I have to walk around and say 'inner child', 'inner child', when it's already past. But I have to say ... it's so true. It works.

paul: I know it's true cause I feel like an eleven-year-old in certain instances. So I absolutely believe it, but...

susan: and there's yes, an eleven-year-old and then there's the seven-year-old, and then in me I've got all kinds of ... teenagers...

paul: I just hate that word cause it just brings up such clichÈ images of the touchy-feely ...

susan: Which word? Teenager?

paul: No, no ...

susan: Oh, yes, 'inner child.'

paul: "Inner Child"

susan: [Laughing] I know, it's like ... it's the stuff ... oh, I just cringe. But I just wanted to say one more thing about - or to - Mr. A. Because I don't want to leave without a suggestion. And it's just a suggestion. He says, "what best describes the environment you were raised in?" I don't know if I need to remind you that he's the one that doesn't feel. He said, "Family was fine. It was stable and safe. I've been bullied for having a speech impediment since I was six. No friends and nobody to connect with. Parents not big on talking about emotions." That is ... I've got flags going up all over the place.

paul: That's stable and safe?

susan: Right. So I would say you need to work on healing the well of pain from childhood. So you can live in your body again, cause you don't live in your body. It's absolutely necessary for you in this moment to NOT live in your body, but ... that was the past. You really want to walk into the present. If you're even answering the survey it means you're willing to move forward. You can't have deep relationships if you live in your head. You can not have a career that is your passion if you can not live in your body. So those are two things. And I wrote that down so that's why it sounded like I was reading it, but I really wanted to just say ... find someone to help you start moving into your body. I would recommend getting a support group. You'll hear what you need to hear.

paul: If you leave your body, can you sublet your body?

susan: [laughs] Paul, I'm not taking you seriously if you throw in that stuff. You want to go to the next one?

paul: Yeah, and I just want to say to Mr. A., I relate on such a profoundly deep level to what you're experiencing. It's ... doing that digging even though it's scary and confusing, it's so worth it cause he describes exactly how I felt when I was a teenager and in my twenties.

susan: I know, Mr. A that you were set up for this. You just need to ... I mean, I have this belief that something's going to come to you - there's going to be an invitation somehow, it won't be probably in an invitation but something will come to you and there will be an opening and you will be able to get somebody to help you.

paul: Yeah, there's this weird synchronicity when we decide to seek and say, "I can't live like this anymore," these opportunities come our way. That convinces me there's something out there. Or inside of us or whatever.

susan: Yeah, just that saying - "I don't know how to do this." It's like not having any more opinions. Just - help me - however that turns out. That stuff inspires me. But I really do ... I feel for you.

part 4: surveys galore

paul: Let's go to the next one.

susan: Leilanni, she's a female she's fifty-one to sixty and she's straight. This is what she has to say ...

paul: ...and which survey is this?

susan: Sorry, this is the survey "Shame and Secrets."

paul: OK. I remember her survey.

susan: You may have answered some of these surveys or at least talked about them or read them. Yes. "My Dad would put his hands down my younger brother's pants in front of me and fondle him. I don't know if anything happened to me when I was younger. My older sister made me rub my crotch against hers. I was about six years old and I learned to masturbate from that." That was, "Have you ever been the victim of sexual abuse?" That was the answer to that, and she said "some stuff happened but I don't know if it counts as sexual abuse." Let me just reassure you - seeing something like that - to be sexualized like that - to have such inappropriate behavior modeled by your parent, who has the power, is such sexual abuse. That is a confirmation. You don't have to question that, at least as far as I'm concerned as a therapist. In fact, moving on, saying yes, that's what it was, is better. So you say here, "What are your deepest, darkest thoughts?" Not things you would act on but things you are ashamed to admit you think about. "That I'm a weird person that no one wants to truly be friends with and that I am just faking being the good person that I like to think I am. That I am lazy and I just use depression as an excuse not to be productive." Leilanni, I'll just tell you that this stuff is deep. And it could be - and because you're not sitting here with us - and I wish you were - because I would like to ask you some more questions about this - there's so much here that you need help with. Because it can be really difficult to put those kind of memories that you have in the place that they need to be. Cause that is just terrible terrible boundaries - modeling - it's such a dysfunctional place to be.

Paul: ... and not giving it the weight that it deserves. You know, just kind of brushing it aside.

susan: Yes. Right. But even to the place where your unconscious is trying to heal you ... by possibly ... you say it's an excuse to not be productive, that your depression is ... sometimes I believe that our mind is always looking for healing in the way that it does, I want to always accept the way that the mind so beautifully tries to heal itself - or at least in the way that it maybe avoids things. So I almost sense that you might be depressed, because somehow your father probably declared that he was productive in some way, or he went to work, so in some way there's an inner child that will see things and say, "I will never do anything that my father did." And that might be, that he went to work. So there's absolutely ways that these inner children try and figure out - how do I avoid this, and never be like that asshole? And it's brilliant. Some of this stuff is brilliant. But it doesn't work in the present.

paul: Yeah.

susan: It doesn't work for us as adults.

paul: What's the phrase, "My coping mechanisms as a child became my character defects as an adult."

susan: Exactly right. But you've put it on yourself. You were set up for this - I'll tell you that right away. There's probably some stuff going on if you just were able to crack a little bit of this open and really look at it instead of putting it on you.

paul: Yeah.

susan: Put it on that person who was that model for you that just ... the belief system that he established in that house was so off that you're now dealing with it. I believe that the idea that you're lazy ... pull that off yourself. And really start doing some... it's almost like being a spy. It's almost like being an investigator. Start being curious about 'why'.

paul: And look at a picture of yourself from that age when that happened.

susan: Yes.

paul: And ask yourself, "would I do that in front of that child? Then why am I making an excuse for this person that did it in front of me?"

susan: Right. And get angry about what he did.

paul: This doesn't mean you have to confront that person. It just means that you're taking the blame off of yourself.

susan: Right. In fact one of the things that ... when I did this work, I wanted to confront my parents, right? But, Amanda really talked to us about that. And the truth is that going back to my parents is like going back to the people that no longer exist, and telling them something that they would never be able to respond to in the way that I thought was good enough. Yes, they could even say, "I'm sorry," but it still wouldn't have been good enough. It's really so much about me re-parenting me. Yes, eventually I got to the place where I could forgive my parents. But it wasn't a head forgiveness, like, kind of, "oh, I forgive 'em." It really had to be through my heart. Which meant all this work had to be done. I had to hit the bag, and swear at them, and tell them - talk to the empty chair, and tell everybody in my group how excruciating it was to be a fat kid and feel that rejection, and why didn't they help? Those kinds of things - all that stuff was so important in me gaining that ground so that I could really become ... start building my own life. So that, yes, things like - not being able to go to work - started to change as I put my adult in place. That's what I would recommend is just looking at that stuff - start to just be like a spy, or ... and I know you need to do it with somebody else, but it is a process. And I think that you're on it.

paul: Allow yourself to be open to the idea that maybe you could give more weight to what happened. That was the first crack, for me to say, "What if the way I remembered things really wasn't right?" You know, what if my mom wasn't this great loving mom? What if there was some exploitation in there? Cause that's what might explain why I'm feeling dead in my body - why I shut down around her. So, to Leilanni I would say, just allow that crack to be opened there. That maybe ...

susan: Yes. I think that she's at a place where - I mean, even just the fact that you're listening to the podcast and answering the surveys, I have to say that you're looking for healing - you're looking for hope. And pull that off of you.

paul: What's the next one?

susan: Memory blocker, female, 31-40, and she's gay.

paul: And this is from which survey?

susan: This is from "Shame & Secrets" survey.

paul: I remember this one as well.

susan: Okay. "I was sexually molested from the age of 11 through the age of 15 by my stepbrother. Just typing this out makes me feel so uneasy. I've never told anyone before last week. After a very bad car accident in April, I've been having nightmares that wake me up in the middle of the night from screaming. All the repressed memories from being molested are all now flowing back to me in my sleep. My fiance and my family have no idea what has happened to me. Listening to your podcast, and this accident, have made me realize the repressed memories that I have. Last week I went to a therapist for the first time since I was a kid. I'm finally getting the tools to be able to deal with these thoughts and feelings. For years my stepbrother took pictures of me sleeping and held those pictures against me so that I wouldn't tell anyone for proof that I was dirty, damaged, and unlovable. I now realize those were not pictures of me asleep. The molestation was not one incident but hundreds. In my late teens I was into a lot of drugs and alcohol and am just now realizing the reasons behind it. I would do ecstasy every day just to be happy and feel loved. Freezing was my only option when these acts were happening and after listening to some of your guests on the show about the freezing, I have realized that may have been my only option at the time. However, I blame myself for not being able to stop the abuse when it was happening. I have had this shame inside my whole life." I think it's amazing that you realize that your freezing saved ... really, I think it saved your life. Again, I'm so in awe of the unconscious, for the coping mechanisms that we have to get through these kinds of things. These kinds of scenes. The blame that you put on yourself, however, that you took on the responsibility of stopping it - the question of course is always, for me, where were your parents? Where were the caregivers? Where were the people who had the power?

paul: Cause if you felt like you had an open channel with your parents, you would go to them with something like that. But if there's a feeling that your parents find emotions to be messy, and something to avoid, what kid is going to go to them with something that's messy? Where the other sibling is gonna get in trouble, and maybe there's even a feeling that that other sibling is their favorite, or whatever. For whatever reason. Maybe you just don't know how to find the words to describe what happened. And maybe there was a part of your body that got some pleasurable sensation even though your mind and your soul were freaking out. And so maybe you feel that there's a part of you that deserved it, or wanted it - it's so complicated, and the thought of going to a parent that finds emotions messy, or is manipulative ... of course you shut down.

susan: Right. Because the people who have the power, if you sense that they can't handle this information about what your stepbrother was doing to you, that was it. There was not gonna be any ... to take the blame off of yourself. One podcast I heard, that there was a question about sexual abuse by an older sibling ... and I wanted to comment about that. Even if it's an older sibling, it's still on Mom & Dad. It's still on the caregivers. The siblings model what it is that they see. The power is in the belief system that's in place, so that if there is exploitation, that's ok ... if exploitation is ok in that power system, in that belief system, then it's gonna come out with the children. So ages - of a nine year old and a four year old, or a fifteen year old and a seven year old - those are all children, and they are all responding to a belief system that was put in place. So as far as children go, blaming an older child isn't fair. You still have to go to the ... that child can not drive away. That - none of the system - the people in power are the ones that have full responsibility of the dynamics between the siblings. That is for sure. So that 'older' 'younger' ... you can't really extract any blame from that, when you're looking at the system. That is obviously in place for a reason, I mean for a reason meaning that those people in power were in charge. So I heard that in your podcast and I thought - uh, it kind of needs to be taken off even an older child ...

paul: Well, thank you for sharing that.

susan: I wrote here in my notes, after listening to your podcast I thought, it's a little like group. It is a little bit like a group - the podcast - in the sense of people really get a sense ... like many people report that they feel close to you. That they don't feel like they're alone. And that, to me, is so valuable for people. That's one step closer to connecting. The hope ... they're open. It's so much about suspending that resistance. Suspend the resistance for a minute, something can come in, and change something. It's like those interruptions that you do in the podcast where those are the crazy outbursts - it's like that's the interruption. It's like listen to the podcast and they're passive, in the sense of almost like support groups that we go to. It's like you sit there and you're passive and you hear and you listen. And you take what you need. And that makes you less defensive. Right?

paul: Yeah. I hope that it's - in the way that therapy is a template for learning how to express yourself in relationships outside of therapy. I hope that the podcast is a template for people to learn how to talk about what's going on inside them and to overcome the fear of expressing themselves. Because so many of us have that inherent feeling like I've expressed to you today, that I have part of me that I should be ashamed of. Me who preaches this, "get rid of your shame." Here I am with this thing and I'm still feeling shame about it. But at least I know I need to talk about it. And not just sit and... what's the next one you've got?

susan: You already spoke about this one, Paul. His name is Isaac. And I don't know ... you said enough, but I also just ... okay, this is what he says. Isaac is a male and he's nineteen years old and he's straight. "Around six months ago I was in my school's locker room when a jock who I never previously spoke to came out of the showers and out of nowhere jumped me and kept shouting, 'I'm going to fuck your faggoty ass,' and I fought him until I hit his sweet spot and ran in a very faggoty way." He says that about 'have you ever been a victim of sexual abuse.' So that happened only six months ago and that was in June. June eighth. 'What are your deepest darkest thoughts, not things that you would act on but things you would be ashamed to admit you think about?' "The jock I mentioned recently killed himself about three weeks ago and around a week before he did, I verbally abused him, calling him cruel, homophobic names. I think that I killed him. It's because of me and my fucking mouth that he hung himself." I just want to say again, you're never responsible for someone else's suicide.

paul: Ever.

susan: Ever. I just felt really compelled to say that again. And also that bullying happens from people by people who are in a lot of pain. That's why it's almost difficult to legislate bullying, because it's really a huge cry for 'I need help.' So, I understand.

paul: There was a kid on our block when I was, maybe thirteen, fourteen years old. There was a kid on our block that I bullied - even though he could've kicked my ass - and I eventually apologized to him years later. But I was so verbally abusive to this kid because I was in so much pain. And I couldn't see it at the time. But when he did finally kick my ass, one of my larger friends started to step in, and I so knew that I deserved an ass kicking, that I told my friend no. Cause I could finally see that I'd pushed this kid to the breaking point, and he needed to get this out of his system. And I don't think I ever bullied him again after that because, I think he had to hit me in the face for me to realize how much pain I was causing him.

susan: You were set up to do that. That was a setup.

paul: I guess. I guess. And I was a really sweet kid until I started getting high, and feeling like I was falling behind socially, and too small for my age, and didn't have any friends anymore. And I became filled with rage. I guess the reason I want to say that is, a lot of people that listen to this podcast are like, "oh, you're such an empathetic person, and you're so giving and caring and sensitive," and I just want to say, while some of those things might be true, everybody has this dark side to them. Everybody has this side to them where they do things that they're ashamed of. Where they've hurt people because they're in pain and they don't know how to express it. And I've forgiven myself for that, and I've apologized to that guy. If there's somebody that you've bullied or, whatever, if you can get in touch with that person and apologize, apologize to them. And if you can't forgive yourself, forgive yourself for it. Because you were in a lot of pain and you were probably a kid or an adolescent that didn't know how to express it. But this guy, Isaac, has nothing to apologize for.

susan: No, and I think that it's a lot to do with ... I learned this a little bit when I was studying Jung and I've been recently in a group that studies Carl Jung. And we're talking about the shadow, and how we repress the shadow. We imagine that we don't have a shadow.

paul: And nobody else has a shadow. That's what we imagine.

susan: Or we project it onto other people, it's scapegoating, meaning 'that person has a big shadow, I don't have any. So they're the bad guy, right? So however it is that we get rid of the stuff that we can't seem to handle in us. Jung would say that we have to accept or recognize the bully in ourself, the murderer in ourself, the beggar in ourselves, in order to welcome the beggar on the outside. It's like knowing that we are potentially everything, and starting from there. And not from this place where, "well, I'm better than her, I've got one leg up," you know, that kind of trying to inch our way into this mediocrity of "I've got a half-assed life, here, so I think I'm gonna hunker down." But really seeing, gosh, I'm gonna push the limits of this idea out, and say, "I'm potentially the terrorist, I'm potentially all of that stuff." And start from there with that, living in that heart. And then things look different.

paul: Absolutely.

susan: Luna, who is a female, she's 19 years old, and she's bisexual. 'What are your deepest, darkest thoughts?' "That even though I am doing well now, and am stable and feel good about my life for the most part, that some day in the future - could be next year or in 20 years - I will inevitably have another major depressive episode culminating in a suicide attempt. And that unlike the last one, it will be fatal. It really does feel dark to be pretty sure how you're gonna die someday." And she says, and I'm gonna give a little bit of background than you've given us, she says 'What describes your family or the environment that you were raised in?' "Pretty dysfunctional." 'Would you consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies?' "Yes, I'm very open sexually..." and she talked a little bit about her fantasies, but what I really wanted to focus on was intimacy. She says, "yes, I'm very open sexually but maybe too open. I seek out sexual partners that are more than one night stands but less than relationships." You just nailed a lot of people. That was exactly where we hang if intimacy is our issue. And for these inner children or for these adults that come to me - knowing that their childhood experiences affect them - intimacy is the place that's damaged. It's intimacy. So having a partner, or a sexual partner, that is more than a one night stand but less than a relationship is - so many of us are in a holding pattern with that. In order to have a deeper relationship, you have to live in your body. So I assume that there's probably ... in order to have that, kind of, sexual relationship, most of us have to ... not live in our body, and live in our head. And that sounds a little bit like what you might be struggling with. I'll go on to number eleven: 'Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?' "My parents didn't exactly take care of my emotional needs when I was growing up. I was kind of neglected. So having external people that loved me sexually and just in general is really important to me and feels validating. I feel extremely embarrassed about this. I mean, I know it's normal to want to be loved, but I really just get off on it in a way that I think might be weird. I also worry that I don't know how to reciprocate. That I need people to love me but I can't give anything in return, because I'm so damaged by depression." That your parents didn't take care of your emotional needs - of course, we need affection. So, as we become more in control of our lives, we find affection wherever we can get it. These inner children look, and say, "There's affection! That's safe affection!" And so it gets exciting, the buildup is really great, it's exciting. But then, we always hear the story of, after sex, you feel so empty. There it is again. It actually moves into that deep well of pain. It ends up reminding you of the lack of affection.

paul: Is the emptiness after the sex, because the sex wasn't an expression of intimacy, but was used in place of intimacy?

susan: Yes, because it's the opposite of what it - and this isn't a moral issue ...

paul: Because it looks - because we're both naked, and we're doing something that is ... we're revealing ourselves physically, but we're not really revealing ourselves emotionally.

susan: Wow, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it looks vulnerable, but it isn't.

paul: Yeah.

susan: Yeah.So the emptiness is ... being in the misunderstanding. Of, "well, it looks like I was going to get affection, but that wasn't affection." Again, it was my expectation, and I was disappointed, in a huge way. Feeling empty is ...

paul: I think mistaking the fact that somebody has given their approval to you physically - that you're fuckable - means that they are affectionate ... towards you.

susan: Right. Because it doesn't feel like rejection ... at first.

paul: Yeah. I mean, there may be - for lack of a better word - you know, sometimes there's hate fucking going on. And when I think of some of the ... sexual, I don't know, conquests, whatever you want to call them, when I was in my early twenties, and finally able to get women to go to bed with me, there wasn't hate involved there. But there was not affection. It was about power. It was about validation. But I had no interest in what was going on in their head or in their souls. I wanted to know what their bodies looked like, and felt like. And I wanted to see them let me have that power. I wanted them to give me the keys, as it were, to explore their body, or ... you know, whatever. That's what I was after.

susan: It also is replicating the feeling that she ... or the message that her parents gave her ... that you aren't worthy of feeling. Meaning, we derive our sense of worthiness from the way that our parents react to us. Because they're our survival. How our parents react to us gives us the sense that we're valuable or we're not valuable. So because she had no ... a kid is a ... we're like a big truck full of emotion when we're kids. We're just emoting all the time. When parents give the message that 'that's not gonna happen here,' this kid then, "okay, something's wrong with me. They don't like it, so something's wrong with me." So that turn off ... yes, there are emotions, I've gotta turn my emotions off, but it's also the way that your parents react to you. It's the value that you give yourself. So if you're not acceptable, then you walk around the earth thinking, 'you know what? I've gotta get it where I can, cause I'm really not up to snuff.'

paul: Yeah, there's a listener that I corresponded with whose mother would tell her "stop crying. You cry too much." And what a damaging thing to tell a kid because then they learn to not trust their body.

susan: That's the inner cue we talked about.

paul: She started cutting when she was thirteen, fourteen years old, cause she didn't ... she's gotta find a way to let her pain out that mom can't see or ... maybe I'm reading too much into it but I just often think of the parents that find emotions messy ...

susan: And unfortunately because we're adults, we think that kids think like adults. But the truth is that we have so much research that shows that children think so differently. They think that what happens in the other room is their responsibility, or their fault. Parents leave the family, they get a divorce, we've heard that all along - who gets through that without thinking, if you're a kid, what's wrong with me? It's very different thinking than adults thinking. That's why the dialoging can be so awakening for people. To really see how concrete these children think. And you have to speak to them concretely. You can't just say to them - my husband's name is Billy - "Oh, Billy loves us." My inner child wants to see, give me proof, what's the evidence? What's the evidence that he's different from whoever I'm projecting onto him?

paul: And sometimes you're unlucky enough to get a parent like my mom, who would blame her unhappiness on us. Would verbally say, when she was crying, "you selfish rotten bastards. I'm gonna leave you all, I'm so sick of you."

susan: That's a common family myth, is 'you're the reason why I'm miserable.' What do you do then? What do you do with that? And you are powerless. It's just such a setup.

paul: You got another one? Or is that ...

susan: Again, this isn't about bashing mom and dad, it's really about ...

paul: No, it's not ... it's about having compassion for yourself. Because you didn't learn how to express yourself.

susan: This is about your podcast. "I really enjoyed when you said that taking meds gives you the chance to feel normal. I took Paxil for a bit in my mid-twenties," and I'm sorry, I'm gonna tell you who this is. This is 'Large Shoes,' from 'Shouldn't feel this way.' Large Shoes, male, 30-39, and gay. So again, "I took Paxil for a bit in my mid-twenties and stopped taking it because I thought I felt better without it. Then in my late 20's job loss and divorce hit. I've been in a funk for the last five years. Looking back, I didn't feel like meds would help me. I'm going to give them and therapy a chance. Thank You."

paul: One of my favorite emails to read. It is just ...

susan: That is out of the park, Paul. That's just great. Yeah, you do need to read that one. And there's a lot of this stuff. Amanda developed what was called a Childhood Bill of Rights. And I want to read it. It's kind of ... it's not that long but I want to read it in response to this survey. Her name is Fortuna, she's female, 21-30, and she's bisexual. 'What are your deepest, darkest thoughts?' "That nothing means anything and we're all just slabs of slowly rotting meat floating on a rock in the middle of dark nothingness."

paul: I remember this one. How can you NOT remember this one?

susan: "I try really hard to find meaning in all the bad things in my life and in the world, but I often think it's meaningless, which scares me." And it says here, 'what are your deepest, darkest secrets?' "I dropped out of university. I've been unemployed for three years. I broke off my engagement. I'm moving back in with my parents who live in a religious, conservative, small town, because I have no money, increasing debt, and nowhere to go. What's worse, I was the 'smart girl' who was supposed to do great things with my life. Added to this is guilt because I live in a first world country and I'm not going to die of malaria anytime soon. So I feel like I should be happy and grateful." And I want to ... Paul & I are both smiling. Because it's just a ... I think, for me, comparing yourself to developing countries ... it's like your mom & dad saying, "We had it bad. We had it worse than you, so you should feel lucky." Which is a family myth that can get so ingrained in you that ... these things are telling you something. And I'm gonna go right down to 'what was your environment like that you were raised in?' "Pretty dysfunctional. I feel like I raised my parents. I had no guidance or direction, so I'm constantly lagging behind other people my age who had basic life stuff explained to them as a child." And you know it. I totally believe you and to know that, that you missed out on basic stuff ... and I'm gonna give you what we call a Childhood Bill of Rights.

paul: And just before you read that I want to say to Fortuna, I feel so much compassion for you and I hope that you can get to a place where you can feel compassion for yourself. Because it sounds like you were raised in emotional poverty. And the reason I remember her survey was where she talked about 'we're slabs of meat,' and I've felt that - I've thought that before. And I see so much of myself in almost every person that fills these out. And that's, in many ways, so life-affirming to know that while our circumstances may be different from the next person, what we feel inside is so common. So completely common. And that connects us all. So go ahead, you were gonna read.

susan: Yes, and I want to ditto that. Cause sometimes I want to get to the solution too soon and I really just want to empathize with that. And know that I get why she's scared of that feeling, because it's just darkness. Meaninglessness is darkness. Sometimes I hear things like, 'we're on this earth to find the meaning.' And that can be really difficult when you're up against a set of ... when you have no basic tools that were supposed to be given to you. It's just like, what do you pull from?

paul: Yeah, you're not going to learn that in a vacuum. You've got to learn it from somebody. And it wasn't there in your family ...

susan: Or you're constantly studying and observing the things outside of you because it's not going to come naturally for you, so you're hyper-vigilant about how people are picking up their fork and ... I don't mean to make it small, but how people are interacting and you're conjuring up the way that ... it's just ... it's so hard. So, the Childhood Bill of Rights. "A Child has the right to ... 1. To be safe. 2. To have parents that are resources in a one-way relationship that's focused on the child. A child has a right to be able to witness emotions being expressed in a healthy way by parents. A child has a right to have the family to be a safe enough place to express emotions and then to experience validation of those emotions by the parents. A child has the right to have his or her basic needs met. A child has the right to witness healthy adult behavior and a parental relationship that is intimate and a partnership. Also to experience healthy limit-setting for the child's good by the parents. Also to experience life as usually fun and to be encouraged to explore the world in small steps." And there's a couple more, but I really wanted ... because when you're in a place similar to you, Paul - when you're in a place that just bottoms out with what it was that you were given - to know what it was that was supposed to be given is part of the grieving process.

paul: That's an understatement [laughs].

susan: So that when you hear, oh my god, I was supposed to have somebody focus on me, and me not supposed to know their stuff as the parent? So many times it gets so twisted in your situation. Parents tell children their worries, or ...

paul: Problems with their marriage.

susan: Right. Very inappropriate boundaries, and so to know ... just, to not have those modeled for you clearly.

paul: I love what she wrote, by the way, and my only is that I'm thinking about the single parent who is hearing this and thinking, 'Am I failing my child because I'm a single parent?' And I don't want them to think ...

susan: I could take the 's' off of parents and 'parent', really. And you know, it's so much about ... the person who is in charge, and that there's love.

paul: Yeah.

susan: And there's so much more, but that's the person that we're talking about. That - sorry - that's part of it. That's part of the child's needs, but yes, it's the person who's in charge.

paul: That's beautiful. My thought was, as you were reading that, is that they should read that on the first day of school in first grade.

susan: Hmm. Yeah. Yes. And to the adults. Sometimes adults just, 'oh, that's what I'm supposed to do... Oh, I can do that.'

paul: Yeah, cause if they didn't learn it how are they supposed to know?

susan: Right, it's like there's willingness sometimes, it's just not given that structure from, you know, a guide. I think we all need to have an advisory team. In all of our lives.

paul: Absolutely. And that's a hard thing to admit, because we think that means failure. We think that means weakness. But isn't asking for reinforcements a sign of intelligence and strength? I mean, how good is a general if he has ten soldiers and he's up against a thousand, and he says, 'a weak guy would ask for other people to come in and help.'

susan: No, yeah, it's asking for help that really shows your wisdom.

paul: It's so scary when you've never done it. But I've yet to have a person write to me, or I've yet to meet anybody who went to therapy and was like, 'that made things worse for me.' I've never heard of it. They may have come across a therapist that they didn't care for, but I've never seen anybody's lives made worse by

susan: asking for help.

paul: Now I'm sure somebody's going to email me and go, 'uhhh I ...'

susan: [laughing] [kleenex break]

paul: Do you have any more surveys?

susan: I do, but you tell me what we're doing.

paul: Let's do another one.

susan: Okay. So it's Janice, female, straight, 30-39. She says, in her 'Shouldn't Feel This Way' - 'What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?' I'm actually not going to include that, I'm going to go right down, is that okay?

paul: Yeah, if you just want to read excerpts of things that's fine too. I do that sometimes.

susan: Great. 'Please write as many of these as you like, I'm supposed to feel 'blank' about 'blank' but I don't feel it.' "I'm supposed to feel happy about living, but I don't I feel like a pillow is being pressed against my face. Not to suffocate me but just enough to breathe, but feel anxious about suffocating. I'm not sure how else to explain this. I'm supposed to feel excited about moving on but I don't. I feel like I can't move on because I'm pathetic and too selfish to work on myself so that my loved ones can enjoy me. I'm supposed to feel optimistic about life but I don't. I feel that the world is a horrible place, and I feel that there is more bad than good." That is a heavy burden for you to carry. But, I have a feeling that this is about the past, and that it's being projected onto the present. So I'm going to go down, one more question, and really try and get at where is this coming from. 'How does it make you feel to write about your real feelings?' "It makes me feel overwhelmed because the feelings don't go away. I feel like I'm always screaming in my head, so no one can hear me. I don't want them to hear me but I feel the need to scream. This frustrates me because I can't figure out if my desire to scream is really my desire to be heard." That is rage. Anger that is ... rage is anger that has been repressed for years and years. And I sense that there's just a lot of repressed anger here that's culminated into this rage. And screaming of course is the way that ... like the crying we talked about, that's the natural way to get rid of that emotion? Screaming is definitely that. That's what we do when we hit the bag, is we scream. It's such a release. So her natural body wants to get rid of stuff that's in her body. That's unfinished business. There's stuff coming up now, and it's causing her this anxiety that makes her feel like she's suffocating. The whole thing is all around here. And that is so much to do with rage, is getting that anger out. I would say that ... oh, I want to go down one more, and I just want to tell you that I feel for you and I know, I've worked with people who have this feeling, especially that chest-tightening suffocation feeling. It's so much to do with anger that's been put there and pushed down. 'Do you think you're abnormal for feeling what you do?' "Yes I think I worry about so many things which have nothing to do with me. I worry about who is being molested, raped, beaten, verbally abused, belittled, bullied, neglected, hated, killed. I worry about what I will do when someone close to me passes away. I'm 33 and I still live with my parents. I spend more time with them than my own friends. I pay them rent, so it's not like I couldn't rent on my own, away from them. For some reason I can't bring myself to leave home. That makes me feel abnormal and pathetic." 'Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself?' "No, because the world is horrible and I can not feel good about sharing something bad with others. Existing does not entitle us to feel worthy of life." So this is a deep sense of unworthiness. And of course, people can't live ... when you have that feeling, you can't feel it - you can't live and feel that kind of feeling.

paul: It's like a fish trying to feel water.

susan: Yes. It's just ... you can't feel it, meaning, it's not tolerable, it's so painful. So you shut down. So she's shut down. So her actually being able to articulate it in a way of ... I don't know, she says 'Existing does not entitle us to feel worthy of life.' That is her feeling of, life is connection, and she feels no connection. This is a fear that we are not worthy of connection. And I expect that's coming from that past. That the - and I'm sorry - I need to go right back to where the worry about who is being molested, I forgot to read number three. 'If you had a time machine, how would you use it? You can't change history, you can only observe it.' She says, "I would observe life up until the time I was molested by an older child when I was four or so. I want to remember what it was like to not want to be sexualized and feel guilty about it." Now, that, I should have read immediately because that's really the piece that is turning up all of this anger, rage, wondering if we're even worthy, just because we exist, of life. So obviously, this four-year-old, that little girl, living through that, probably not having any way to process it, of course, it just sounds like it was horrible. And then to be left with the feeling of guilt and fear of disconnection because of the shame, is probably what she's up against. It's so important for her to have said that, I don't know if we're worthy if ... just because you exist you're worthy of life. Because she's really putting her finger on 'I'm not connected.' And that is what life is. And of course there's a question. So going to that and articulating it is pretty rare. It's not so much that I'm enjoying her articulation of it, but really sensing that she's hopefully, toying with the idea of going to that really scary place. It's a big decision to risk that.

paul: To talk about it?

susan: To talk about it. To open up that can of worms, and it's more than a can of worms, it's terror. But it seems to me that that is what her body is starting to tell her. It's 