Frans Timmermans is a Dutch politician and an EU apparatchik. He is currently a member of the Politburo — I mean European Commission — and hopes the become General Secretary of the Party. Whoops! Did I really say that?? I meant: President of the European Commission.

In the following interview, Mr. Timmermans discusses Brexit, EU-skepticism, and other annoying forms of interference with those dedicated functionaries in Brussels who toil daily to fix all of Europe’s problems — especially the problem of people who don’t like being told what to do by Brussels.

Many thanks to C for the translation, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:

Video transcript:

00:00 But the big picture, what about other countries? —In many other countries, the sentiment is…

00:04 in some countries, the Netherlands too, there were sentiments,

00:08 partly a sentiment of “Maybe we should leave the EU, too.”

00:12 That idea is gone in most countries. You see,

00:16 well, if we focus on the Netherlands for a moment, the FvD [Forum for Democracy] has burst

00:20 onto the scene. they are strongly in favor of a Nexit. —Is that right? Because I find it confusing.

00:26 Yes, there is some confusion, but their overall position is Eurosceptic.

00:30 Yes, but they need to have a clear message for their voters, because,

00:34 I’ve always heard [FvD’s] Mr Baudet say, “We want out, because the EU can’t be reformed.”

00:42 And the head of his party says he first wants to try and reform the EU. So that’s a mixed message

00:46 for the voter. —Yes, but they are Eurosceptic. —They are,

00:50 and more European parties are Eurosceptic, but all I wanted to say,

00:54 on the spectrum from very pro-EU to very Eurosceptic, that whole spectrum

00:58 will be represented in European Parliament.

01:03 But going a step further and decide to leave the EU, I almost never hear that anymore.

01:08 But let’s discuss your tour. It’s been called the Tour de France. Do you encounter much resistance

01:13 and aversion towards Europe? Because you’re meeting all these people now.

01:18 Yes, five years ago it was actually more polarized. People would say,

01:22 I’m against Europe, or: I’m all for Europe!

01:26 Now people talk about concrete subjects. They’ll say…

01:30 a subject I also bring up in Amsterdam, because I encounter it

01:34 all over Europe, is: “We can’t find affordable housing anymore.

01:38 Our children can’t stay and live in their own city. Unless they stay with their parents.

01:42 35 years old and still living with their parents! Can’t Europe do something about that? We worry

01:47 about the future of our pensions”. That’ll be an issue here. That’s an issue all over Europe.

01:51 What should Europe do? How can the euro contribute, or why is the euro, maybe.

01:57 People see the direct connection with their own lives much more nowadays.

02:00 OK. But how do you explain then that Eurosceptic parties are growing everywhere?

02:04 If we look at Italy, Marine le Pen in France, resistance by Eastern European countries,

02:09 AfD in Germany, Farage with his Brexit party in the UK.

02:13 And the rise of the FvD [in the Netherlands].

02:16 I think that, first, there’s the realization, almost everywhere in my experience,

02:20 that we’re all in the same boat as Europeans.

02:23 And if you’re optimistic about the future, then together in a boat means:

02:29 OK, then we can deal with these problems together with other Europeans; we’ll be in a stronger

02:32 position than when it’s every man for himself. But there are also many people in Europe who say:

02:35 Oh dear, I’m in a boat with people I don’t really trust; they may not consider my interests.

02:42 And then politicians come along who say, “We’ll make our own little boat;

02:45 we’ll get out of the big boat”.

02:48 And that is attractive for some people. And that’s a political proposition.

02:54 But there are real problems that these people are confronted with?

02:58 That’s not the issue. The question is: real problems, for example

03:04 large companies that pay no tax, or only very little,

03:10 that bothers people, when they have to pay a lot of tax. And there are

03:14 many other problems. But the question is, how do we solve them?

03:18 Does it solve anything if we retreat behind our borders?

03:21 Does it solve anything if we get out of the EU?

03:24 I’d say, look at Brexit. Does it really yield any benefits? Or should we try to reform the EU?

03:31 Ourselves! To make it better, to make it stronger, so that it yields a fairer society.

03:36 If I may interrupt: The impression many people have is that all decisions are made over there

03:40 in Brussels; we don’t have any say in it. If I may give an example, here in the Netherlands.

03:47 a majority in parliament wants a visa restriction for Albanians,

03:50 because of Eastern European and Albanian mafias,

03:53 which cause a lot of problems here, but the European Commission says: Albania meets the criteria

04:01 for the suspension of visa restrictions. In short, we have a problem and Europe

04:05 decides [against our interests]. And that is the impression a lot of people have.

04:08 We can’t decide anything without member states.

04:11 The member states all have a seat at the table. That game, distancing yourself from a decision

04:15 when it doesn’t turn out the way you’d like to see, I don’t fall for that.

04:20 All member states have a seat at the table. —But the Netherlands has a problem now.

04:25 We can make a proposal, but we can never decide. That’s up to the member states and the

04:28 European Parliament together. And if the Netherlands has a problem, it can be brought up

04:32 in Brussels. The commission won’t dismiss it; we’ll have a discussion. And if

04:36 other member states, like Germany and others, have the same problem, we’ll work out a solution.

04:40 But people feel this way. People have the feeling: we have all these problems,

04:44 and far-away Brussels is going to decide everything,

04:48 and we lose our own identity. You must have encountered this on your tour. —Yes.

04:53 Now you link it with identity, and that’s exactly what

04:58 I worry about most, that we link politics and identity.

05:04 Because then it’ll boil down to “we can only be happy in a country

05:08 where we all look the same and are all called Klaas,”

05:11 if you take that to its logical extreme. Look, take this city as an example.

05:16 We’re a society in which we have to learn to deal with many differences, and you can’t

05:22 learn to deal with these differences if you exclude some people, or say, ‘My way or the highway.’

05:26 And the EU is like that too. It’ll never be 100% how you want it,

05:30 but you can exert influence and together arrive at a compromise.

05:34 A divided society won’t. —What are you planning to do? What will you do

05:38 different from what Juncker did, to get those citizens together, because,

05:41 one way or the other, this polarization exist, and you see these groups

05:45 grow apart, it must worry you. —Yes, very much so… — So what will

05:49 you do differently? —…if we don’t do anything about this. One of the things I’d like to do is

05:53 to show, on a daily basis, that the whole spectrum of people want

05:57 to keep the EU going, but in different ways,

06:01 that this is clearly represented in the European Commission, that everyone can identify with it.

06:05 So that people see “Maybe I don’t always get my way, but I have influence.

06:09 And I know I have a voice in this.”

06:12 That national politicians say this clearly too, that we need the EU to deal with certain issues.

06:19 You’ve seen this the last few years in the Netherlands too, right? For more issues we

06:22 have to say, we can’t take care of this without the EU.

06:25 But as long as it seems so distant to people, as long as we can’t

06:29 make clear they have direct influence themselves,

06:32 as long as we can’t show with concrete policy. If we can show that, for example,

06:36 that we as Europeans together can agree on a minimum European corporate tax, so that

06:41 big companies that are more powerful than EU member states

06:45 can’t be active in a country without paying taxes, if Europe can show

06:49 it can do something about that, then people will say: hey, it has.

06:52 OK, concrete measures. But isn’t attitude in the debate also relevant? You dismissed

06:57 your fellow politician Baudet as an idiot. That happened during a Labour meeting,

07:03 in Rotterdam on March 16; is that constructive in the context of polarization?

07:08 In my opinion, a debate can be harsh. They have harsh words for me all the time as well.

07:13 I have no problem with harsh debates; let’s not mince words.

07:18 But what about their voters? —I find that funny. When a left-wing politician is attacked,

07:24 nobody ever says, “That’s insulting his voters, too.”

07:30 Only when people like him are attacked, then suddenly his voters are offended.

07:34 Well, I don’t know. —It’s not a big deal. It’s a non-issue.

07:37 The issue is just… what makes me angry is his expression “homeopathic dilution

07:42 [of the native population].” That’s what made me angry.

07:48 That’s an idiotic statement, that’s what I should have said, not the way I said it then.

07:52 Because we… aren’t we a society that is forever changing, that is very diverse?

07:56 That diversity gives us so much strength, such wealth.

08:01 Are we going to pretend that we can turn back the clock?

08:04 That’s no use to anyone; that’s wasted energy.

08:07 Find strength in the diversity we have. Build a stronger society out of that.

08:13 And then Baudet, also from his ideology and philosophy, can work towards

08:17 a better society. He doesn’t need to divide that society for that.

08:22 Yes, let’s talk about that. And a fierce debate is all right with me.

08:27 If you become the head of the commission, you’ll have to build bridges

08:32 between these two parties, these schools of thought, also in other countries.

08:38 Could your future be uncertain, given that government leaders could make a different

08:42 choice, and prefer [PM] Rutte for this position?

08:45 Anything can happen. What I try to do is present the social democratic plan

08:51 for Europe. In my experience, there’s a lot of interest.

08:58 we’re a political force to be reckoned with in Europe. On the other hand,

09:02 the time that two forces dominated in the EU is gone forever.

09:05 In that respect, the EU is more similar to the Netherlands now. Larger, broader coalitions

09:08 are required to govern. I try to create a Europe that is as progressive as possible.

09:13 I would not ally with right-wing extremist parties. Some Christian Democrats

09:17 are undecided on that; I wouldn’t do that.

09:20 I will try to realize a progressive majority in the European Parliament.