Coates: What I’m trying to get at is a theory—you’re very unique in the sense that you are the president but you’ve also been an activist. You’ve actually occupied both roles. So what I’m getting at is, can you see how—

Obama: Is there utility—

Coates: In not being so close to power?

Obama: Yeah. And my argument would be: Yes, and it’s the reason why I am always interested in engaging in people who are pushing us and pushing against the status quo. But having been an activist, the only thing that I’m always encouraging activists to do is, once you have raised the issue, and even through controversial means, you have to come behind it with an agenda and the possibility of reconciliation if power meets your demands. And that was true during the civil-rights movement, that was true during the union movement, that’s always been true. And so the only time I get frustrated with activist criticism is if I have recognized them, and invited them to work with me to figure out how we solve this problem that they’re concerned about, and either they don’t engage out of the sense of purity—“I’m not going to shake his hand”—or you’re not sufficiently prepared so you don’t even know what to ask for, or you’re not being strategic as an activist and trying to figure out how the process has to work in order for you to get what you want.

So I’ll give you some specific examples just so that this isn’t too abstract: I thought Brittany Packnett, who was one of the Ferguson activists, really interesting, smart young lady, really impressive—you might want to talk with her. So she was one of the organizers of the Ferguson movement, ended up joining our task force. She came in here and she just knew her stuff. And I don’t think at any point backed off, even in our first meeting, saying, “Here’s what we’re concerned about; here’s where we’re disappointed in the Justice Department’s response; here’s what we need.” But she was sufficiently well-informed and engaged that it was very easy then to say, “You are right about this, you’re wrong I think about that, but I’m not sure, let’s sit down and see if we can hammer out a strategy that we agree with. And by the way, I want you talking to that police chief over there and that sheriff, because I think you might be able to persuade them if we break this down into its component parts.”

Now, in contrast, there have been times where, let’s say on LGBT issues, when we were trying to end Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, and I got the Pentagon and Bob Gates, a Republican holdover from the Bush administration, to authorize a study of how you might end Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, headed up by Jeh Johnson, who at that time was a council to the Justice Department. And it was going to take a year to conduct that study, issue a report, and figure out how it might be implemented, what effect it would have on unit cohesion and military effectiveness. And I had laid out this strategy because if I could get the Pentagon’s imprimatur on this thing, then I knew that we could end up getting legislation passed to reverse the policy, and we could get the branches of all the military to implement it. But during the course of that year, probably every speech I gave, I’d have gay activists just screaming at me during rallies. And you just say, “Come on, man. Not only do I agree with you, but I’ve actually got a strategy to execute, we are executing it, and in what sense do you think that you yelling at me here is going to advance your cause?”

Coates: They don’t want you to forget.