michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Ghislaine Maxwell’s yearslong relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has raised questions about what she may have known about allegations of sex trafficking against him. Now, thousands of pages of sealed documents stemming from their relationship are about to be made public. It’s Friday, July 26. Megan Twohey, tell us about Ghislaine Maxwell.

megan twohey

So she is the daughter, she’s one of nine children born to a British media mogul named Robert Maxwell. She grew up in, like, a 50-room mansion in England. Her father sailed a boat called the Lady Ghislaine, presumably an indication that she was maybe one of his favorites. And so she came up rubbing shoulders with kind of aristocrats and royalty, and really led a rich and charmed life in England, and then in the early ‘90s, came to New York. And the timing was remarkable. That same year in 1991, her father tumbled off that boat to his death —

michael barbaro

Wow.

megan twohey

— amidst mounting debt, and later that year it was revealed that he had also basically pillaged the pensions of his employees. So she was basically getting a start in New York as her family fortune was disappearing and her family’s name was in ruins. And right around that time, she meets Jeffrey Epstein. It’s not clear exactly when their relationship maybe shifted from being romantic to not being romantic, but what happened is as the allegations against Epstein started to surface in the mid-2000s, there were also allegations that emerged against Maxwell. The reporting on her that I did with my colleague Jacob Bernstein, we found that one of the friends who socialized — who attended their dinner parties said that Maxwell “seemed to be half ex-girlfriend, half employee, half best friend, and fixer.” But you also have a couple of Epstein’s accusers use much different language to describe her role. One of them has described her as his madam.

michael barbaro

Which is a way of saying that she was in charge of arranging sexual interactions.

megan twohey

Correct. So in Epstein’s homes there were massage tables everywhere. And he had what has been described as an insatiable appetite for massages. One of the former employees in the Palm Beach mansion described as many as 200 masseuses being recruited into the home over a several-year period, and said that Maxwell was oftentimes in charge of that recruitment and very active. Those massages were, in some cases, cover for, or a vehicle for, the sexual abuse and exploitation of underage girls. And so you’ve also had a couple of Epstein’s accusers say that they were actually solicited by Maxwell, and that in a couple cases, she participated in the sexual abuse herself.

michael barbaro

So to the degree that there was a kind of trafficking going on, she was deeply involved.

megan twohey

According to several of Epstein’s accusers, yeah, they say that she was in some way central to the sexual trafficking of girls and young women.

michael barbaro

So what happens to this relationship over time?

megan twohey

So this relationship, as we understand it, carries on for years and years, until 2008, which is a very significant year in the Epstein story, because that’s the year at which he pleads guilty to soliciting a prostitute as part of this extraordinary nonprosecution agreement that he strikes with federal authorities. This was a significant turning point, because another thing that happened as part of that nonprosecution agreement is that Epstein’s alleged victims, even though they hadn’t been able to see him criminally prosecuted for the alleged crimes that they had committed against these many women, these many girls, who were surfacing at the time, they were given the green light to move forward with civil cases against him. And that became this whole other track by which allegations started to surface. And so in 2009, one of Epstein’s accusers files a lawsuit. These were called Jane Doe suits, in which the young women were given assigned attorneys who then represented them in civil cases that were quickly struck, in which Epstein made financial payments to them.

michael barbaro

And the names were shielded. They were called Jane Doe.

megan twohey

The names were shielded. And in many cases, there’s minimal records from these cases now. But these were the cases in which some of these additional allegations started to come out. So as early as 2009, one of the Epstein accusers who sued Epstein in one of these Jane Doe cases made her allegations against Maxwell, and said that she had been recruited by Maxwell and that she had basically forced her into sexual activity with Epstein. So as early as 2009, Maxwell becomes part of the public record of allegations. And Maxwell and Epstein go separate ways. And so they’re not visibly attached anymore. But once Epstein finishes serving his 15-month jail sentence in Florida, he comes back to New York, continues to be very visible here in New York society. And Maxwell continues to be very visible, kind of, in high society. She’s being photographed on the party circuit. She’s forming other high-profile alliances and affiliations. She had been friendly with the Clintons. She attends Chelsea Clinton’s wedding. She attends Clinton Global Initiative events.

archived recording (ghislaine maxwell) When I was a little girl, I grew up watching Jacques Cousteau on TV. And I was mesmerized by the beauty of the ocean and the colorful and magnetic fish that I saw on TV.

megan twohey

She has taken up the environmental cause, presenting herself as a friend of the ocean.

archived recording (ghislaine maxwell) The ocean is absolutely vital to all planetary life systems. I call it the blue heart of the planet.

megan twohey

She gives a talk at a TED event. And so she and Epstein, they are both continuing to, by many measures, kind of carry on, in many ways unscathed by what’s happened. That starts to change a little bit for her after 2015.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. What happened in 2015?

megan twohey

So 2015 is a significant turning point, because that’s the year that she actually gets directly sued by one of Epstein’s accusers. This woman, who as early as 2009 had been making these public allegations that Maxwell had been part of Epstein’s predation and had recruited her into sexual exploitation — Maxwell had been denying that. She’d publicly said, this isn’t true, those are lies. And in 2015, that accuser says, actually, you know what, Maxwell, when you called me a liar, you defamed me. So I’m now taking you to court. I’m suing you for defamation. And so Maxwell becomes a direct defendant in that case. And that’s the year that she starts to kind of disappear from public view. She’s now disappearing from those party photos, the townhouse that she had been living in here in New York ends up being sold in 2016. But what we know is that while she was kind of dropping out of public view, in some ways she was also having to deal with this case. And ultimately, in 2017, she settled that case. Maxwell struck a confidential settlement with her accuser. And as part of the settlement, that case file was sealed.

michael barbaro

And when a case is sealed, that means no one can view it.

megan twohey

That’s right. You can see some of the— like, I’ve got the original complaint here. And I’ve got Maxwell’s initial efforts to dismiss the complaint that was filed against her. But when it comes to all of the supporting records that were submitted as part of the case as it moved forward over the course of those two years, as these two people did battle, those records, those thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of records, were sealed and removed from public view.

michael barbaro

And Megan, why is that relevant now?

megan twohey

Those records are about to be unsealed here in New York. And —

michael barbaro

Why?

megan twohey

— when this case resulted in a confidential settlement in 2017, it was not surprising that those records were sealed. That’s what happens all the time in these civil cases. Especially when there are very serious intimate allegations that are made, oftentimes that is a condition of the settlements that are struck, that everything remains secret moving forward. But in this case, as of July 2019, this three-judge panel at the appeals court here in New York determined that the public interest in seeing these records outweighed the private rights of individuals seeking to keep them confidential. I think that there is, however many years into this, a sense that the public deserves an avenue to start to learn more about what’s really happened and how it was covered up.

michael barbaro

So in the two years since those documents were sealed, the balance of protecting Maxwell versus the public interest, that seems to have tipped.

megan twohey

That’s right, and it’s tipped quite substantially. Because this case involves thousands and thousands and thousands of records that are going to be released in sort of two batches. But at least as we understand it, in the first batch, there’s going to be as many as 2,000 records released. And these are records in which there are allegations made not just against Maxwell, but also against other powerful, well-known people — against Prince Andrew, against Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz, who represented Epstein in his criminal case in 2008, as well as unnamed, quote, “numerous American politicians, powerful business executives, foreign presidents, a well-known prime minister and other world leaders.”

michael barbaro

Wow.

megan twohey

Now, we can’t be sure if the allegations are going to be that these people actually participated in the sexual exploitation and predation, were witness to it, but we know that there’s going to be a lot of other allegations that are going to come to light against many other figures outside of Maxwell and Epstein. And these are not going to be allegations that have been vetted, that have resulted in criminal charges. These aren’t figures who are defendants in this case, who have had the opportunity to respond in this particular case. And so things have tipped substantially, and it’s certain that it’s going to be very explosive when they hit.

michael barbaro

Right, and of course, what some may see as a correction, a necessary correction, will be seen as others as an overcorrection, perhaps.

megan twohey

Everybody seems to have a different perspective on what the release of these records is going to mean and for whom. For example, Alan Dershowitz, he says that he has been wrongly and falsely accused by the plaintiff in this case, that she lied when she said that she was required to have sex with him as part of Epstein’s network. And he has been in his own separate legal battles with her. I was on the phone with him earlier today. And he’s just saying, I want all these records out. They’re going to prove that I’ve been wrongly accused and that the plaintiff in this case is not a reliable narrator and that she’s made —

michael barbaro

A public figure who welcomes —

megan twohey

Who welcomes this.

michael barbaro

— the release.

megan twohey

Who says, yes, yeah — it’s interesting, you’ve got Alan Dershowitz saying that these records need to release, and then you’ve got the attorney for the plaintiff in this case, like David Boies, has also been counting down the days until these records are released, saying that these are actually going to just shed more light on all of the terrible predation that Epstein and Maxwell and others engaged in over the years, and that all these powerful people should be basically running for cover, because they’re really going to be genuinely implicated in this. And so, you’re getting a lot of different messages from a lot of different parties about what these records are going to mean when they’re released.

michael barbaro

Megan, I have no doubt, from working with you for years, that you will proceed very cautiously and carefully when these documents are ultimately released and you start to go through them. But as you’re going through them, what are you going to be looking for?

megan twohey

Well, I’m going to be looking for more of what we’ve already seen in the past couple of weeks since Epstein was criminally charged here in New York. What we’re seeing more and more of, and I’m sure that these records are going to also allow us to continue on this path, is to just see an expanding cast of characters who were in each other’s orbits in the ‘90s and 2000s here in New York, and who either allegedly participated in the sexual exploitation of women and girls or who witnessed it. And so I just have been struck with the reporting that I’ve participated in. Going back to 2016, Michael, you and I investigated Trump’s treatment of women and pieced together some of the allegations of sexual misconduct, sexual assault that were made against him. Jodi and I did the reporting on Harvey Weinstein in which we were piecing together decades of allegations of sexual harassment and assault against him. And now there’s the Epstein case that we’re diving into. And what you see is that these people moved within the same orbit in the same scenes. And so even last week, people were trying to figure out the connections between Epstein and Trump and placing them at these two parties that happened at Mar-a-Lago in the ‘90s with young, beautiful women. And there was a moment where I realized, oh my goodness, one of those parties was actually the scene of an alleged sexual assault by Trump. That in late ‘92 or early ‘93, Trump was doing business with two people who worked in the beauty pageant business — you’ll recall this, we did the reporting together, Michael — like Jill Harth and George Houraney. And so they actually had a party at Mar-a-Lago with the beauty contestants. And I’d forgot this, but that Epstein was at that party that night. And one of the business partners, Jill Harth, claims that that night Trump tried to sexually assault her. And last week, when people were making the connections between Trump and Epstein and that particular party, I called Jill up and was like, wait a second, Jill, was this the same party where you claimed that Trump tried to sexually assault you? And she said yes. And in fact, I remember in 2016, when we were doing this reporting and I talked to her for the first time, she made the point then, like, oh, you’ll never guess who else was at that party that night — Jeffrey Epstein.

michael barbaro

But that didn’t mean much to you then.

megan twohey

I was like, oh, right, I think I sort of know who Jeffrey Epstein is. So it’s this moment last week where I was like, wait a second, that’s interesting. And there was another moment last week where I glimpsed a photograph that placed Harvey Weinstein and Epstein at a party together. And it made me wonder more about the extent of any relationship that they had. And so, I guess, as a reporter who feels like I’ve kind of been a little bit of a detective on the Trump story, and then the Weinstein story, and now Epstein, you kind of feel like a detective who’s been working separate cases, and you’re starting to wonder, what are the connections between these? Are there any connections that go beyond what meets the eye right now? And —

michael barbaro

It sounds like these documents might show that there are even more connections.

megan twohey

I think that these documents, at the very least, are going to place more high-profile figures into the orbit of interest in this story. And that it just feels like step by step, month by month, we are starting to see the curtain pulled back, and that there have been rich, powerful men who have been able to engage in alleged predatory behavior for years and have been able to conceal the allegations that have surfaced over time. But that we are starting to see more of the allegations and the methods brought to light.

michael barbaro

I’m struck that it’s through this case against a woman, who seems to have been part of the system herself, allegedly, that we may learn about that.

megan twohey

Right, well, this was also the case with Weinstein, that when you go beyond the individual alleged predator and you start to look at the circle of those around him, that what comes into focus are kind of a variety of alleged enablers that include women as well as men.

michael barbaro

Thanks, Megan.

megan twohey

Thank you.

michael barbaro

On Thursday night, The Times reported on Jeffrey Epstein’s unusually close friendship with another wealthy and powerful man, Leslie Wexner, whose clothing empire has included The Limited, Abercrombie & Fitch and Victoria’s Secret. Employees of Wexner’s company complained that Epstein, using his friendship with Wexner, had posed as a recruiter for Victoria’s Secret, and in the 1990s, allegedly assaulted a young woman trying to become a model for the company after asking her to meet him in a hotel room for an audition. Wexner was alerted about the allegations. Nevertheless, Epstein remained his financial adviser, overseeing Wexner’s fortune, real estate holdings and philanthropy. We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. The Senate Intelligence Committee has concluded that in 2016, Russia targeted election systems in all 50 states in attacks that went undetected at the time. While no votes were changed, the committee found that Russian hackers were nonetheless in a position to alter or delete voter data.

archived recording (mitch mcconnell) It’s very important that we maintain the integrity and the security of our elections in our country. Any Washington involvement in that task needs to be undertaken with extreme care and on a thoroughly bipartisan basis. Obviously, this legislation is not that.

michael barbaro

The finding was disclosed hours after Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell blocked consideration of a series of bills that would strengthen the security of the U.S. election system, drawing a rebuke from Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

archived recording (chuck schumer) If we lose faith in our electoral process, democracy begins to walk away from us. We’ll be a different country than the glorious country we’ve been since 1789. And yet, our Republican colleagues put their heads in the sand.

michael barbaro