I'm in Delhi's Som Vihar, which is home to many soldiers of the past and of the present. My guest this week, well, at a point when India is passing through what can only be described as one of its murkiest Night of the GeneralsI'm sorry to twist that metaphormy guest, a most honourable one, General JFR Jacob.

Nice meeting you. We are old friends of many, many years.

These are difficult times. But many of us have missed a marvellous thing that happened this week. The honour that the Bangladesh government conferred upon you for being the key liberator of their country. The Indian Army is in need of these honours and good news stories so desperately right now.

I joined the army at a very early age in 1941. I served five years during World War II in the Middle East, Burma and Sumatra. I was wounded in Burma. I learnt my soldiering in World War II and it stood me in good stead later. But then I came back to India and took over the artillery school from the British.

What was it like to go to Dhaka and to be honoured like this, now and at this age? They haven't forgotten...

No, they haven't. The point is that I devoted my time to the liberation of Bangladesh. I dealt with them, I helped them, I helped to raise the Mukti forces and trained them. I planned the offensive into Bangladesh and built up the logistics for the war. It was a brilliant campaign. I'm not going to say anything about myself. I'll quote from the Pakistani army's study of the war: 'It was a brilliant textbook campaign, meticulously prepared and overall control was enormous. Credit entirely goes to only one person, Major General JFR Jacob.'

And most people don't realise that you were a Calcutta boy as well. You were a Bengali for all practical purposes.

Yes, I was born and brought up in Calcutta. I went to St Xavier's in Calcutta, a very good college. I love Bengal, I love Calcutta and also, I'm very sympathetic to the sufferings imposed by the Pakistani army on the population of Bangladeshmurder, rape, they were terrible.

And unsoldier-like...

Absolutely.

Did you say that to them when they surrendered?

No, I made this guy (Pakistani Lieutenant General AAK Niazi) surrender in front of the people in Dhaka, a public surrender, the only one in history. Let me tell you, we planned a lightning campaign. We assessed that Pakistan would defend the towns and our strategy, therefore, was to bypass the townsyou know how long it takes to capture townsand go straight for the centre of gravity, the geo-political and geo-strategic heart of Bangladesh, Dhaka. I was under great pressure from the army headquarters to move into Bangladesh in April because the government was pushing the chief, and the chief was pushing us. I explained to him there was no way we could move in April because we were mountain divisions, we had no bridges, we had no adequate transport, the monsoon was about to break and we didn't have the logistics. So I was asked for a brief which I sent to Sam Manekshaw, which he read out to the prime minister. The prime minister agreed to postpone it to after November 15.

What's your view on Sam now? Was he a good general?

I would say he was a great character. He did a lot for the army. He restored the prestige of the army. He maintained izzat and he took no nonsense.

But you had differences with him.

We had our differences. For instance, the only orders I got in writing were to take Khulna and Chittagong. I told him that Dhaka is the centre of gravity and you must go for Dhaka. He said `no, don't you see if Khulna falls and Chittagong falls, Dhaka will fall?' I said I don't see how that can ever happen. He said no, we will only take Khulna and Chittagong and Dhaka is not important. We had differences. But I like Sam. We were friends, but we had professional differences. I have my own ideas, he has his own ideas. He may be right or I may be right.

But those professional differences were very different from the differences we see these days among generals. What's going on?

I would not like to comment on this. I know the army chief is a very honourable man and I don't want to get involved in a discussion on this.

But what's your view on this? In what position does it put the army in India right know?

Well, it doesn't do us any good. There's a sort of friction between the bureaucracy and the army, which is not a good thing. In my time, we didn't have it. I got on very well with Jagjivan Ram, who was a brilliant defence minister. The President was a very good man. He was very honest and very capable. I worked with him. I didn't work with the prime minister but I worked with Jagjivan Ram and Bansi Lal. Both were brilliant.

So where do you think the break comes from right now? What's going on is very unedifying.

I have no idea. Because I've been away and I don't take interest in these things. All I can say is that it is unfortunate. I hope it never happens and I wish it hadn't happened.

And how would you fix it now? You are the senior-most soldier.

I'm not a fixer. I wish I could be a fixer. I think things will sort themselves out. I think there will be agreement soon between the government and the armed services. I hope so anyway.

But sir, could this have been avoided?

You're asking leading questions.

I have to.

I think it could have been avoided. The army chief is a very determined man and he's not very flexible. He is an honest man. The government has its own agenda. The two were at variance, and there are bound to be problems between them.

So what will your advice be to each of them?

I would say, sit down together and talk. There should be give and take, things should be sorted out in an amicable manner.

This is a bit more serious. This generals calling generals names.

I don't know about corruption charges between various generals that is going on. It is unfortunate. I'm sure that in the army, we always try to be clean and above these things. I cannot comment on it. I have no knowledge.

But you saw some corruption in your time?

I saw some corruption even in my time, yes.

In fact, a war hero in your time was doing something not very nice.

Yes, there were a lot of allegations.

But it was handled within the army.

Yes.

But why is this spilling over now in public?

It should never have spilled into the public. This is not a matter for the public domain. It was between the army and the ministry and the babus. And it should be sorted out between them.

Because what Jaswant Singh has written in our paper is that it's wrong to bring in even the CBI. These things have to be handled within the army.

They should...

The court of inquiry is the instrument to inquire into something.

I know in certain cases the CBI came to inquire into senior officers and I told them they were not required. Any inquiry that needs to be done is to be done by me. And I did it.

The military has to be integrated within its own structure. What has changed at the top? Is it the ethos, lifestyle...something has changed.

When I joined the army, I never had a house. Now everyone who joins the army wants to build a house. The other problem in the army today, and it's a very serious one, is the women's chain of command. The women have too much of a say in affairs. There's a separate chain of command, the women's chain, which is detrimental. Women as in the wives of the generals. They want control.

And it's much more now than before?

Much, much more.

What's the one line that applied to General Singh?

I think General Singh is very honourable, so is the minster, and the deputy minister, who I know. I think they should sit down and talk.

...Instead of talking at each other.

Yes. I'm sure both have the interests of the country in mind. Both the army chief and minister are dedicated nationalists. So they should do something together.

The minister of state travelled with you to Dhaka.

From Dhaka, yes.

Tell us a recent Dhaka memory.

I was overwhelmed by the enthusiasm of the people. I was surprised that they remember me. I was mobbed everywhere, people surrounded me, all the TV stations. I was given a standing ovation when I was receiving the award. It was tremendous. The prime minister had to tell them to stop. I was touched.

You've never been given such an honour in India.

No, I have no honours in India. None.

And you've never complained?

Why should I complain? It's not my prerogative. If they want to give me an honour, it's up to them. I won't go begging.

For you, that one picture of Niazi signing the instrument of surrender with Aurora, and you standing back, that's your biggest honour, isn't it?

No, that's not the biggest honour. The biggest honour was getting Niazi to surrender. And surrender in front of the people of Dhaka. The surrender document was drafted by me. I converted a ceasefire proposal into an unconditional public surrender, the only one in history.

And now your honour is what the government of Bangladesh has given you.

Yes.

And you're not complaining that the government of India has done no such thing?

I have no complaint against anyone. It's entirely up to them. I have not asked for anything.

Because it was only after the victory and the surrender that people also realised that, if I may say so, you also are a great symbol of secular India.

I belong to a very tiny minority.

You are in the list of Jewish military heroes.

Yes, I've been written about in the book, Lions of Judah. There's a whole chapter on me.

Did that ever become a problem?

No, I never experienced any anti-Semitism from Indians. They've been good to me. When everyone asks me why I didn't go to Israel, I tell them I was born in India, India gave me everything, I will die in India.

And your Jerusalem is Som Vihar.

Yes, this is my Jerusalem.

There's a smile on your face that says so much.

Let me tell you this. Everyone thinks the surrender was easy. On the 13th of December 1971, we were on the outskirts of Dhaka as a small force. The American fleet was in the Straits of Malacca. There was consternation in Delhi. So we got an order from the army headquarters: you will capture every town that had been bypassed. But we couldn't take even one town! I would be blamed and they would say, it was your bloody strategy. Next day, thank god, I got an intercept that there would be a high-level meeting in Government House in Dhaka. I spoke to the Air Force and had them bombed very accurately. The governor resigned that evening. Niazi formally went to the American Consul-General with the following proposal: ceasefire under UN, hand over administration to the UN, withdrawal under UN, no reprisals. It was given to Bhutto in New York on December 15, he rejected it outright. On the morning of December 16, Manekshaw calls me and says, Jake, go and get a surrender. I said on what terms? I've already sent you a draft surrender document. He said you know what to do, just go. So I took to Dhaka my draft, arrived in Dhaka and met Mark Henry and Kelly of the UN and they said we are coming with you to arrange the ceasefire and withdraw the Pakistan Army and take over. I said, thank you, but no thank you. Firing was going on between the Mukti and the Pakistani army. The Pakistani army sent me the army staff car and a brigadier. Hardly had we gone 400-500 yards down the road, the Mukti across the road start firing at the car. I jumped up with my hands up. They saw me and stopped firing. Then they wanted to kill the Pakistani brigadier.

I read that in your book. It says you were in olive green, so they figured you're not the Pakistani army, which is khaki.

Yes, they knew that and they stopped firing. They wanted to kill the brigadier, we said no way. Anyway, we went to Niazi's headquarters. I read out the document to him. He said, 'Who said I'm surrendering? You have only come here for a ceasefire'. So I took him aside and said, 'General, if you surrender, I can guarantee your protection and protection for your family and for ethnic minorities. If you don't surrender, how can I guarantee safety? In that case, I wash my hands of anything that happens to you. So I would suggest that you think it over. If you don't, I give you 30 minutes. I will order the resumption of hostilities and the bombing of Dhaka Cantt.' I walked out. Niazi, according to the Commission of Inquiry, had 26,400 troops in Dhaka. We had some 3,000 outside. If he said no, what was I supposed to do? I had nothing in my hand.

You could go and take one other town.

Aurora was to land, ceasefire was to expire that evening. I didn't know what would happen. So I went inside and asked Niazi if he accepted the document. Three times I asked him, he didn't answer. Then I picked it up and said, `I take it as accepted'. Then I called him aside and told him to surrender in front of the people of Dhaka, who he had harassed so much. He said, 'I will not.' I said, 'You will.' I said there's no question of refusing as I had already given instructions. I then said, 'You will provide a guard of honour.' He said he had no one to command it. I pointed to his ADC: 'He will'. It was entirely my own procedure. All I can say is that a ceasefire was converted into an unconditional public surrender in the space of four hours.

Jake, tell me one thing. That surrender suddenly made many people remember your Jewish origins, particularly the Arab press. Did that bother you?

It didn't. It may have bothered the government of India.

How?

The Arab press went for me and...

Saying you had deliberately...

Saying I was Jewish and all sorts of rubbish. The MEA spokesperson said JFR Jacob is not a Jew, he's a Kerala Christian, which I wasn't. Kerala Christians are very good people, some of my best friends are Kerala Christians...It didn't bother me. I will put on record that throughout my stay, in my life, I have never seen any anti-Semitism by any Indian.

So a soldier first and soldier last, an Indian first and Indian last, and a Jew who regards Som Vihar to be his Jerusalem.

Or, I say finally, god bless India, may she keep on rising and rising. I love India and may India shine and shine forever.

Jake, if I may say so, you are such an inspiration to all of us Indians, but even more so, to Indian soldiers at this time. I hope they are watching. Because Jaswant Singh reminded them of Chetwood's motto. What you've done is lived that through a very long career in the army, in public life, as a governor, as a negotiator, now as this great ambassador of India, though acknowledged more in Bangladesh than in India. It's such an honour to have known you.

Thank you.

And it's such an honour to have had this conversation.

Thank you. We are all Indians. We must work together and pull on together, not fight with each other. We have to show unity because we have a lot of problems coming up and we must be united to face them head on. Thank you and god bless India.

Transcribed by Arundhati Chakravarthy

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