Midichlorian Counts

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HeartoftheForce I know I shouldn't be doing this... That said, I am so sorry for what's below this.



I'm really terrified to put this up and I don't want to start any super serious arguments or anything, I just kind of want some feedback. It took a while but I've made up what I personally think the midichlorian counts are for almost every star wars heavy hitter I could think of. If I missed any though, please say so. Oh and I tried not to make any of the counts the same for definable reason of their powers.



Now these are all just my opinion and as life has told me, my opinion can be wrong. This isn't official by any means and it's just for my own amusement. But if you guys have any corrections they'd be greatly appreciated. And remember, midichlorian counts are just your maximum potential and many Force Users never reach their full potential in their lifetimes.



Alright, with that giant disclaimer out of the way I'll put up my flame fortress and see how this goes...





Anakin Skywalker: 27,000

(Stated to be "Over 20000!" by Obi-Wan so I just chose an upper 20's number I thought looked fitting. He never reached it of course but still.)



Luke Skywalker: 23,000



Leia Skywalker: 23,000

(Luke and Leia are twins so I put them at the same. Do I think they're the same skill level. Oh nooooo. Just that they have the same potential.)



Galen Marek/Starkiller: 22,000

(The apprentice was said by the creators to be "What Luke would have been if he joined Vader on Bespin." so I put him here just below Luke to signify that. Plus he has quite a few feats under him. Brought down a Star Destroyer, owned through the Death Star's defenses, took down five Imperial Guards at once, completely owned Vader, and beat Palpatine all without a single breather. Yeah, he's strong...)



Cade Skywalker: 21,000

(Can bring people back from the dead. Wasn't sure where to put him but I figured upper tier.)



Palpatine/Darth Sidious: 20,000

(Stated by Lucas to be the strongest Sith Lord ever. With that said, I prefer G-canon over everything. I know some disagree but this is where I think he'd be, just above Yoda at his strongest but still below Starkiller.)



Yoda: 19,000

(The Jedi Grandmaster...definitely the strongest in the Order when it came to Force usage.)



Exar Kun: 18,700



Ulic Qel-Droma: 18,500

(Two of the greatest Jedi/Sith ever. Had to be top-tier. Agree? Disagree?)



Mace Windu: 18,000

(Probably has more "shown" feats in the series than any other character. Do I think he's stronger than Palpatine though? No. I'm one of the few people that think Palpatine faked his defeat for Anakin. Mace even saw that the boy was Palp's shatterpoint. And seriously, how bad would it have looked if Anakin walked in to find the lifeless body of Mace Windu laying before Sidious? I don't think Anakin would have joined him then.)



Revan/Darth Revan: 17,900

(I figure this is a good place to put him. I know people will be saying above Palpatine or at least above Mace but what people don't realize is that Revan is strong but his feats are associated with his tactical knowledge, not always his Force power.)



Dessel/Darth Bane: 17,800

(Below Revan IMO just below and above everyone else. Bane is the true definition of a beast.)



Ben Skywalker: 17,700



Anakin Solo: 17,700



Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus: 17,500



Jaina Solo: 17,500

(Wasn't quite sure where to put all of the kids. I know Caedus could wipe the floor with all of them but I couldn't effectively determine their potentials. Anyone think they should be higher?)



Obi-Wan Kenobi: 17,000

(Obi-Wan is and always will be my favorite character in the series, ever since Ep IV. That said and biased opinion aside I think he was easily the third strongest in the Order by Ep III. Had he reached his full potential by then? No. But he was darn close.)



Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus: 16,500

(I think he reached his full potential personally. He was talented enough in the Force to at least get a compliment out of Yoda, which had NEVER happened before in the series. That alone astounded me.)



Darth Vader: 16,000

(Now I made Vader and Anakin separate because Vader could NEVER reach his full potential and he was stated to be about 80% of what the emperor was. So this is what I put him at. But I know midichlorian count doesn't diminish with lack of arms and legs I just think this was what Anakin stopped at.)



Darth Plagueis: 15,500

(Don't know anything about him just figured he had to be pretty strong. Don't really care where he goes though...)



Exile: 15,000



Darth Nihilus: 14,900



Darth Sion: 14,800



Kreia/Darth Traya: 14,600

(Not sure about these four. Nihilus is verrrry strong so should he be higher? Should the others go with him or stay where they are? Opinions?)



Kyp Durron: 14,500



Kyle Katarn: 14,400



Jaden Korr: 14,200

(Figured that these were the three best Jedi in the NJO and each have shown some pretty remarkable feats of their own so...)



Ajunta Pall: 14,100



Marka Ragnos: 14,000



Naga Sadow: 13,900



Ludo Kressh: 13,800

(All the Ancient Lords I put here because well, I didn't have too much to go on. Strong but not too strong. Way above average.)



Kol Skywalker: 13,500



Nat Skywalker: 13,500

(These two were random entries)



Cin Drallig: 13,000

(Okay, into the real Council and strongest members of the Order. I went by my personal opinion of order of strength from Crin Drallig to Ahsoka Tano. Cin is this high because although he's just the battlemaster he incorporated more concentrated Force power into his movements and attacks, using Force speed like it was nothing.)



Plo Koon: 12,900



Shaak Ti: 12,800

(Plo and Shaak are definitely up there on the Council. Too bad Plo got blindsided in his fighter. Clone troopers wouldn't got demolished under Electric Judgment on the ground in a fair fight. And Shaak controlled the Mega Sarlaac...not an easy feat.



Alek/Darth Malak: 12,800

(Never found Malak to be that impressive...ever.)



Kit Fisto: 12,700



Saesee Tiin: 12,600



Ki-Adi Mundi: 12,500



Quinlan Vos: 12,200

(Quinlan was the definition of a badass. He could beat Maul IMO and probably a bunch of other Council members with lightsaber skill alone.)



Sora Bulq: 12,100



Mara Jade Skywalker: 12,000



Darth Maul: 12,000

(I know that there will be some debate over this one but I just didn't see too many Force feats of his. Yes, he could wreck quite a few Jedi with his saber alone but incorporating the Force I wasn't sure. Raise him?)



Depa Billaba: 11,900



Kazdan Paratus: 11,900

(I hate him so much but he has to be pretty strong to make completely operation Force techs right? Maybe stronger?)



Yaddle: 11,800

(Awesome enough in the Force to suck in the deadly poisons of numerous bombs blowing up all around a city, absorbing the toxins into herself and dying from it.)



Oppo Rancisis: 11,700



Yarael Poof: 11,700

(Oppo and Yarael are two of my favorite weird-looking Jedi. Both fairly strong with some unique Force feats.)



Asajj Ventress: 11,600

(Never impressed me much. She could take on Luminara without a sweat but gets curb stomped by Obi-Wan every time they face. And Yoda literally 'schooled' her so this is where she goes in my book.)



Ferus Olin: 11,500

(Was good at everything he did and he survived Order 66 and the Purge. He had to be up there. It hurt to put him this low.)



Luminara Unduli: 11,100



Desann: 10,900

(A tyrannosaurus with a lightsaber. Truly badass. I wish I could put him higher.)



Bastilla Shan: 10,800

(Strong enough in the Force to use Battle Meditation. It's her only real Force feat though...



Serra Keto: 10,800



Corran Horn: 10,700

(Place higher? Maybe with Kyle and the others. Wasn't sure...)



Rahm Kota: 10,500

(Again, maybe higher? Not by much though.)



Adi Gallia: 10,400



Even Piell: 10,400



Agen Kolar: 10,300



Eeth Koth: 10,300



Xanatos Omega: 10,300

(Definitely stronger than Qui-Gon. I put him here.)



Aayla Secura: 10,200



Ahsoka Tano: 10,200

(She's at least as good as Barriss and Aayla and although it hurts me not to make her a 2, I put her here.)



Barriss Offee: 10,100



Stass Allie: 10,100



Kento Marek: 10,000



Qui-Gon Jinn: 10,000

(I love Qui-Gon. He's one of my favorites but I just do not think he was that strong in the Force. He had unique ideals and was awesome with a lightsaber but I never saw a single good Force feat. I mean look at the whole Watto situation lol)



Juhani: 9,600



Tavion Axmis: 9,500

(Desann's lapdog. Gets owned every single time until Ragnos control her. Pretty weak in my opinion.)



Siri Tachi: 9,000



Jolee Bindo: 8,500



Rosh Penin: 8,000

(All I ever remember about this guy is Jaden saying "Rosh!" as he impaled him onto his lightsaber in the dark side ending of Academy. Can't be that strong...)



Coleman Trebor: 7,500

(Council member that got shot off the Geonosis arena by Jango. Council member? Really? Wow. Was he subbing for a real Council member that day or was it just another practical joke played by Yoda on one of his padawans?)



Chewbacca: 7,200

(Said to have some Force potential right? I couldn't remember what book it was though.)



Aurra Sing: 7,000



Level Needed For Jedi/Sith Training: 7,000

(After this is just kind of random with no factual evidence to support any of it.)



Padme Amidala: 5,000



Danni Quee: 4,500



Shmi Skywalker: 4,000



Lando Calrissian: 3,300



Han Solo: 3,000



Jango Fett: 2,500



Boba Fett: 2,500



Owen Lars: 2,500



Beru Lars: 2,500



Granta Omega: 2,500



Clone Troopers: 2,500



Average Human Being: 2,500



General Grievous: 1,500

(I put Grievous the lowest on the midichlorian chart for fun. I mean he had no Force potential. He was just amazing with lightsabers.)

Nephthys I disagree with some of the placements but I think its some solid guesstimation work on your part(if that makes sense). I lol'd at the Greivous one. I know its per cell and everything, but I seriously don't think you'd be swimming in mediclorians when you're just a heart, lungs and some eyes. Pretty good list.I disagree with some of the placements but I think its some solid guesstimation work on your part(if that makes sense). I lol'd at the Greivous one. I know its per cell and everything, but I seriously don't think you'd be swimming in mediclorians when you're just a heart, lungs and some eyes.

HeartoftheForce Lol, thanks I appreciate it. And yep, guesstimation makes perfect sense =) Oh and if you have any suggestions at all feel free... I'm trying to make this list as accurate (fan-wise) as I can.



Oh and I agree about Grievous. Don't think the heart, lung, and eyes get you very far up the ladder either, lol.

Q99 I'd put Ahsoka higher- one reason why I think she got assigned to Anakin was because she was another natural prodigy type. High count, though not as experienced as people like Aayla and Barriss.



Since she's only a Padawan she doesn't yet have the experience to do major force stuff even with a good count.

HeartoftheForce Noted. Sigh, this list is unbiased so I'll make a note and put her where she actually should be. Where would you say? Oh and after we've reached a general and majority consensus I'll repost the new and improved list.

Q99 Maybe in the 12/13,000s?

Red Nemesis Marek didn't beat Sidious.



I didn't read much beyond that.

HeartoftheForce Got you RN. Thanks for switching. But he didn't? I could've sworn Sidious was on the ground telling Marek to finish it which he was about to do until Kota stopped him... I'll have to replay the game again to be sure though.



Oh and sorry you didn't read much else. Guess it is kind of long, haha.

HeartoftheForce "Palpatine was employing the same weakness charade he used on Mace, Anakin, Luke, and countless others. He loves that trick. He attacked Kota and not Galen because the former intervened and disrupted his tactic.



Feigning weakness is part of Sidious's fighting style as well."



I could agree with that. I believe that's exactly what he did with Mace. But where would you put Sidious and Galen on the list?



Oh and I kind of threw Kol in there on a whim. Didn't have much to go on though. Better spot to put him?

Hewhoknowsall Why is Kol so low? He's a Skywalker.



Kyp should be higher. Remember that we're talking about Force potential, not one's skill with a lightsaber (something that there isn't really a "limit" to, except for possibly the amount of info that the brain can hold and the amount that you can learn within your life), and in Force alone Kyp is likely > Dooku...and it isn't even known if Kyp is at his peak yet.

HeartoftheForce I know Kyp brought down a lightning bolt on the head of some colossal beast but the other feat (pulling the Sun Crusher out) I know he was aided by Exar Kun. Has he done anything else? Haha, I wasn't sure.

Lord Lucien Kyp doesn't have a lot of major feats to his name. He moved a dovin basal like Luke, but fared better. And Luke considered him equal and/or superior, I don't remember.

truejedi Kyp considered himself greater than Luke, in what was arguably an omniscient musing. (depending on recent usage of quotes in these parts)



His Dovin Basil things was pretty Bad A. And didn't he use the force to destroy enemy fighters in the middle of dogfights?

Hewhoknowsall Originally posted by truejedi

Kyp considered himself greater than Luke, in what was arguably an omniscient musing. (depending on recent usage of quotes in these parts)



His Dovin Basil things was pretty Bad A. And didn't he use the force to destroy enemy fighters in the middle of dogfights?



Corran (I think) in Legacy of the Force: Fury stated Luke to be the most "dangerous" man in the galaxy, and Jacen aka Caedus to be second.

truejedi Indeed, Luke is without question, the better duelist. His lightsaber skills are unparalleled. That is stated in numerous places.



Force POTENTIAL though? I don't know. Luke obviously has more feats, but it could be theorized *(though not very well substantiated) that Kyp could do those things too.

HeartoftheForce So where would you guys throw Kyp? In the 20's? Or not quite that much? Oh and was I right about Exar Kun aiding him in that dovin basal thing?



Also, what do you guys think of Revan and Bane's placements? I figured that would stir up a lot of controversy.

truejedi No, Kun did not aid him Dovin Basil thing.



He aided him in pulling the ship out of a star in Jedi Academy. The Dovin Basil was in the NJO series.

Nephthys Bane should be higher, maybe Yoda or Palps level, 19000-20000. Revan should be lower, around Kyle Katarn. Nihilus should be at least on par with Sidious imo.

HeartoftheForce Oh thanks true for the correction. So where would you put him? And anyone else agree Revan lowered, Bane raised slightly, and Nihilus raised to Palp?

truejedi Definitly disagree with Nihilus. There is no evidence that his drain would be effective against a highly tiered force user. His TK, while impressive, isn't shown to be entirely accurate.



As per Gideon, if the quote about him ripping the ships out a gravity well, and then holding it together with the force was correct, it should have fallen apart instantly when he died. It did not.

Lord Lucien Originally posted by truejedi

Definitly disagree with Nihilus. There is no evidence that his drain would be effective against a highly tiered force user. His TK, while impressive, isn't shown to be entirely accurate.



As per Gideon, if the quote about him ripping the ships out a gravity well, and then holding it together with the force was correct, it should have fallen apart instantly when he died. It did not. His spirit lingered on. That's how powerful he was. And I base this assertion on absolutely nothing.

Red Nemesis Originally posted by truejedi

Definitly disagree with Nihilus. There is no evidence that his drain would be effective against a highly tiered force user. His TK, while impressive, isn't shown to be entirely accurate.



As per Gideon, if the quote about him ripping the ships out a gravity well, and then holding it together with the force was correct, it should have fallen apart instantly when he died. It did not.

lolwutno



"Holding them together" has nothing to do with "ripping them out." Was Gideon talking about stuff? I'd like a link so I can shoot him down.



(N. pulling the ships out of a well doesn't mean that they would fall apart after he died. So that part remains a valid feat.



N. holding the ships together doesn't mean that they would fall apart instantly; that is what inertia is for. Holding together might have been referencing the shear forces of EXITING the gravity well. So this part sounds irrelevant.



I'd like to have the link to the official position (or hear you elaborate) before I toss the idea out completely, however.)

Nephthys I don't even know where the idea that he was comes from btw (that N was holding it together). Was it becuase you could breath even though you can walk right up to the holes in the ship, becuz, yeah that was pretty wierd.

truejedi It all came from the same conversation with (is it Tobin?) onboard the ravager before you run into N. (or after you run into N, cause it really doesn't matter... you can leave whenever you want.



Gideon wasn't talking about the pulling, he was talking about the holding together, which we get from Tobin.



However, in continuation of that, Tobin has now proved himself an unreliable witness, bringing into doubt the other things that he says.

HeartoftheForce So Nihilus lifted a starship and possibly held it together. We should look at it this way. Yoda could definitely do that so who thinks Revan or Bane could? Obi-Wan? Dooku? We'll put him between one of them assuming most people are in agreement about their midichlorian placements. If you disagree then out of the ones I listed just say what you think their midichlorian count should be. Thanks guys.



My next question is what about Ben and the Solo kids. Think that they're right?

Q99 I might move Obi-Wan somewhat lower- he was fairly strong in the force, but what really made him such an awesome Jedi was cunning and sword skill, he have fairly few pure force feats.

truejedi why does this feel like Mickey Suttle all over again?

Hewhoknowsall Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Why is Kol so low? He's a Skywalker.

HeartoftheForce Who's Mickey Suttle? lol. And I just put Kol on their on a whim. I hadn't really looked at his feats or anything. But I'll change it soon.

Red Nemesis





Prove it.





What? The holding together, as I explained, does not necessitate that the ship fall apart as soon as N. dies. Unless there is something pulling the ship apart at that moment, inertia would prevent it from suddenly exploding. "Holding the ship together" would mean counteracting shear forces during acceleration or FTL travel or entering/exiting a planet's gravity. Luckily, the Ravager was not doing any of these things and so N.'s direct intervention wasn't needed to hold the ship together between his death and the destruction of the ship.



I understand questioning sources, but going to such lengths to discredit someone with no reason to lie--someone whose testimony is corroborated by OoU facts (the loading screen)--suggests some sort of deeper bias. Maybe Gid is just jealous of N.'s TK; maybe Gid is afraid that he has found a match for Palpatine. In ascending order:Prove it.What? The holding together, as I explained, does not necessitate that the ship fall apart as soon as N. dies. Unless there is something pulling the ship apart at that moment, inertia would prevent it from suddenly exploding. "Holding the ship together" would mean counteracting shear forces during acceleration or FTL travel or entering/exiting a planet's gravity. Luckily, the Ravager was not doing any of these things and so N.'s direct intervention wasn't needed to hold the ship together between his death and the destruction of the ship.I understand questioning sources, but going to such lengths to discredit someone with no reason to lie--someone whose testimony is corroborated by OoU facts (the loading screen)--suggests some sort of deeper bias. Maybe Gid is just jealous of N.'s TK; maybe Gid is afraid that he has found a match for Palpatine.

truejedi No, if the ship was literally not together, the very force of a single person's steps would make it fly apart. It has nothing to rest on, since this is space. Instead, you had an entire commando team. You can say he held it together long enough to get some spot welds in place i guess, but since it isn't resting in a gravity situation, without something holding it together, it will come apart.

HeartoftheForce How big was the ship? Yoda is credited in lifting two droid landing crafts at once and having one of the highest midichlorian counts (no exact number given) so I just assume anything Nihilus can do, he can do better lol

Red Nemesis um... no. You are taking the line "held together" and extrapolating into "not connected in any way." This is a rather large logical leap and will have to be substantiated, especially since the ship clearly had artificial gravity and also some measure of life support.

Gecko4lif How the hell is nihilus so low?

truejedi If N is holding it together, the insinuation is that nothing else is holding it together, or else I am misunderstanding the use of the words "hold together" there.



If any kind of fasteners are holding it together, N is not.

HeartoftheForce Gecko I'm changing it definitely, haha. I'm thinking 18,900? Thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Gecko4lif That sounds about right

Red Nemesis Originally posted by truejedi

If N is holding it together, the insinuation is that nothing else is holding it together, or else I am misunderstanding the use of the words "hold together" there.



If any kind of fasteners are holding it together, N is not.



i GUESS THAT I WAS IMAGINING A PLATE OF FOOD PILED WITH WAY WAY TOO MUCH FOOD. IF YOU ARE WALKING/MOVING SLOWLY THEN THERE IS NO NEED TO PROTECT THE SUPERSTRUCTURE OF BREADSTICKS WITH YOUR HANDS. hOWEVERE, IF YOU MOVE MORE QUICKLY THEN YOU MAY NEED TO HOLD THE PLATE WITH ONE HAND AND MAINTAIN STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY WITH THE OTHER. IN THIS WAY YOU WOULD BE "HOLDING IT TOGETHER" WITHOUT NEEDING TO APPLY CONSTANT FORCE (OR fORCE, AS THE CASE MAY BE).

HeartoftheForce So here's the big question then. Revan or Nihilus? Who do you think has greater Force potential?

truejedi Originally posted by Red Nemesis

i GUESS THAT I WAS IMAGINING A PLATE OF FOOD PILED WITH WAY WAY TOO MUCH FOOD. IF YOU ARE WALKING/MOVING SLOWLY THEN THERE IS NO NEED TO PROTECT THE SUPERSTRUCTURE OF BREADSTICKS WITH YOUR HANDS. hOWEVERE, IF YOU MOVE MORE QUICKLY THEN YOU MAY NEED TO HOLD THE PLATE WITH ONE HAND AND MAINTAIN STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY WITH THE OTHER. IN THIS WAY YOU WOULD BE "HOLDING IT TOGETHER" WITHOUT NEEDING TO APPLY CONSTANT FORCE (OR fORCE, AS THE CASE MAY BE).





Now imagine that the plate with all the food is IN SPACE. what happens to that food? So you use the force to hold it all together. Then you die. What happens?

HeartoftheForce I agree truejedi. The thing about moving slowly with a plate full of food on earth is that gravity is acting as the force holding it in place. In space there is no force holding it together.

Red Nemesis The plate of food continues moving in precisely the same direction as it was before. Inertia. The effects of footsteps would not be able to overcome the rest-mass of the various components to cause total disintegration of the ship. (And you still haven't responded to the relatively finished interior of the ship; both artificial gravity and life support were in effect; do you think it is likely that N. picked up various unconnected sheets of metal and is holding them together? Even if he was in the gutted out skeleton of a ship, there would still be some degree of cohesion, even without the repairs we've seen.) (Another thing you haven't substantiated is the idea that the presence of "fasteners" makes N.'s contribution to structural integrity zero. I can quote you the line if I need to.)

Red Nemesis Originally posted by HeartoftheForce

I agree truejedi. The thing about moving slowly with a plate full of food on earth is that gravity is acting as the force holding it in place. In space there is no force holding it together.

This is not true. I included the line "superstructure of breadsticks" for a reason. Moreover, TJ has yet to substantiate that there is no cohesion among the various components of the ship, or that N. contributing to structural integrity excludes the possibility of other kinds of "fasteners."

truejedi no, i believe you. I think the quote, and the finished condition of the inside of the ship kinda negates the quote about him holding it together, since that clearly wasn't case.



There would be no inertia pushing in the positive y direction (the normal) to counteract the footsteps which would be a force in the negative y direction.



All inertia for the ship would be along the Z and the X axis.



So you are correct, clearly he wasn'tactually holding the ship together with the force, like Tobin implies. He possibly PUT it together with the force? But since that would just be an assumption on our parts... it is far more likely that Tobin is simply wrong.





Oh,and in response to this:







If his contribution is not total, the feat is meaningless, because saying it is LESS than total, throws it back into the world of the unknown. Perhaps he was only holding the command chair to the deck of the command center, for all we know, as that technically would be fulfilling the "holding the ship together" requirement.

Red Nemesis Again, no.



Originally posted by truejedi

no, i believe you. I think the quote, and the finished condition of the inside of the ship kinda negates the quote about him holding it together, since that clearly wasn't case.

Except that he could have held it together in the face of potentially catastrophic stress. There is no need to call Tobin a liar at all.



I might be misunderstanding inertia, but I thought it was not a vector quantity. So each step would move the component it strikes only a little. Inertia dampens the overall effect of each footstep.



Not so. You've yet to prove that N.'s actions were a constant effort. You're ignoring the idea that N. pulled a preexisting ship out of orbit. He doesn't have to order a million different pieces of metal, he just has to keep the one big skeleton of a ship from falling apart. The ship would exist even without N.





It doesn't make the feat meaningless, only indistinct. But, to my knowledge at least, the impressive part has never been maintenance. Are you forgetting the pulled thousands of tons out of a gravity generator part?

truejedi Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Again, no.





Except that he could have held it together in the face of potentially catastrophic stress. There is no need to call Tobin a liar at all.





But where is the evidence of that stress? potentially means he maybe wasn't holding it together except in extreme situations, which we don't know of ANY situations like that, and so we can't say he was actually doing it at all.







I am not an expert, but here is the way I am seeing it. Inertia is the tendency of objects to continue to move in the direction they are moving unless acted on by an outside force. So the inertia of the ship, keeping it together is its own momentum, all the parts are moving together.



This is a moot point if you argument is that the ship IS connected in other ways besides N's power, but what I was arguing is that a completely disconnected ship, when pushed from above (step on top of a floor) will fly apart, because there is absolutely nothing stabilizing it from the top. Your argument has evolved a bit with the metal framework im about to address, so this is probably doesn't matter though.







This is absolutely fine. I am actually pretty much saying the same thing.

It is much less impressive feat in this light, and I can let it go. Except one part of it. How does he keep the "big skeleton of a ship from falling apart" without maintaining force control of the whole thing? Is he just holding the weakest parts?









indistinct is as good as meaningless in a feats war,



And i've not forgotten the thousands of tons from a gravity well thing, I am making a case to cast doubt on one of the witnesses to the feat.

Red Nemesis The rest is moot (we're both mangling the physics terribly so I suggest we move away from that area) so I'll respond to this:





I see the threat of disintegration coming from the compromised structure of the vessel. N. pulled a wrecked ship from the Mass Shadow Generator, and we cannot ascertain how much of its original strength remains. It is likely, therefore, that at least part of its original integrity has been lost. Thus, any action that results in forces acting on the ship could cause catastrophic failure of these weakened points. (Any sort of acceleration or deceleration will generate shear forces within the ship, which may be beyond the weakened vessel's ability to withstand.)



N.'s part in "holding the ship together" would be to shore up those weak spots with the Force and make sure that the ship does not shake or pull itself apart during burn (acceleration) or when it jumps to Hyperspace. Day to day functions would go on without his attention. After all, he pulled a skeleton out of the gravity well, not a collection of unconnected parts.





___________

And who said anything about a Feat war? It is just a testament to his precision. (Which goes without saying, as the ship didn't fall apart as it exited the gravity well!)

HeartoftheForce I have a question. Who do you guys think has more Force potential and in what order? Out of Jacen, Jaina, Anakin Solo, and Ben Skywalker.

truejedi Well, as a simple matter of genetics: Ben is first, (mara and luke) the other three, having the same parents should be equal.

Autokrat A person walking on the ship isn't going to jack to it even if its not "held" together. Consider how much mass the person has and how much mass the 1.2 kilometer long space age metal monstrosity has.

Gideon RN

I understand questioning sources, but going to such lengths to discredit someone with no reason to lie



Tobin was in Nihilus's thrall, yes?



Tobin was a non-Force sensitive with no substantiated expertise on the Force, yes?



All of these would indicate that Tobin was a person; and people are capable of lying, exaggerating, or outright pulling things out of their asses.



I'm treating Tobin's quote exactly as any other statement made by an unqualified, fallible third party would be.







It is said by an out of universe that Nihilus holds the ship together?







I'm better looking than Nihilus, so I doubt it.







My TK is better.







A match?



Just for kicks, I will now use a statement made by another fallible third party.



"Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." -- the New Essential Chronology.



So Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever, since fallible third party quotes are always and unquestioningly valid.



I win.



As usual.

Red Nemesis .





Luckily, the only important bit of information we get from him certainly is corroborated by the loading screen.





Everything else was a joke. This I do not know. I suspect not. I'm not particularly attached to the feat though, so it isn't important either way. (I get nothing out of "held together" that isn't done better and faster with "pulled from a gravity well"Luckily, the only important bit of information we get from him certainly is corroborated by the loading screen.Everything else was a joke.

Gideon

This I do not know. I suspect not. I'm not particularly attached to the feat though, so it isn't important either way. (I get nothing out of "held together" that isn't done better and faster with "pulled from a gravity well" .



I enjoy crushing you.











Where in the loading screen? And does it mention the details of this particular technique?







That's what I might say if my point were just annihilated (like yours). RNThis I do not know. I suspect not. I'm not particularly attached to the feat though, so it isn't important either way. (I get nothing out of "held together" that isn't done better and faster with "pulled from a gravity well"I enjoy crushing you.Where in the loading screen? And does it mention the details of this particular technique?That's what I might say if my point were just annihilated (like yours).

Red Nemesis

I enjoy crushing you.







Was this crushing before or after the part where I rebut all of the various points of TJ's argument (which is also yours somehow?) against the information and reduce you to vague jabs at the source of the information itself?





In the loading screen where it says he ripped the ship out of the gravity well with the Force. The "technique" is nothing more than TK, so any "details" are the natural ramifications of Telekinesis.







You didn't find the smiley a giveaway? Are you this bad at reading nonverbal cues in real life? Originally posted by GideonI enjoy crushing you.Was this crushing before or after the part where I rebut all of the various points of TJ's argument (which is also yours somehow?) against the information and reduce you to vague jabs at the source of the information itself?In the loading screen where it says he ripped the ship out of the gravity well with the Force. The "technique" is nothing more than TK, so any "details" are the natural ramifications of Telekinesis.You didn't find the smiley a giveaway? Are you this bad at reading nonverbal cues in real life?

Gideon

Was this crushing before or after the part where I rebut all of the various points of TJ's argument (which is also yours somehow?) against the information and reduce you to vague jabs at the source of the information itself?



Vague jabs aren't required. Tobin's knowledge of Nihilus's command of the Force and his purported ability to hold the Ravager together has yet to be substantiated; Tobin hasn't demonstrated any particular expertise in the areas of the Force. He's a no-name military officer who happens to be under Nihilus's thrall: which is to say that his opinion is irrelevant.



That's all I need to do, you see. I just KO'd your source, which means you can manufacture the greatest argument in the history of mankind, but it doesn't matter: because you can't make use of Tobin as someone whose opinion is either credible or relevant.



Hence the crushing.











What does it say, word-for-word? "Darth Nihilus used telekinesis to rip the Ravager out of a gravity well," "Darth Nihilus used an ancient technique to enhance his powers and rip the Ravager out of the gravity well," or what?







I'm about as bad as reading nonverbal cues as you are good in the area of getting dates.



With that said,











I win.







You should probably surrender, Nemesis. I always win. RNWas this crushing before or after the part where I rebut all of the various points of TJ's argument (which is also yours somehow?) against the information and reduce you to vague jabs at the source of the information itself?Vague jabs aren't required. Tobin's knowledge of Nihilus's command of the Force and his purported ability to hold the Ravager together has yet to be substantiated; Tobin hasn't demonstrated any particular expertise in the areas of the Force. He's a no-name military officer who happens to be under Nihilus's thrall: which is to say that his opinion is irrelevant.That's all I need to do, you see. I just KO'd your source, which means you can manufacture the greatest argument in the history of mankind, but it doesn't matter: because you can't make use of Tobin as someone whose opinion is either credible or relevant.Hence the crushing.What does it say, word-for-word? "Darth Nihilus used telekinesis to rip the Ravager out of a gravity well," "Darth Nihilus used an ancient technique to enhance his powers and rip the Ravager out of the gravity well," or what?I'm about as bad as reading nonverbal cues as you are good in the area of getting dates.With that said,I win.You should probably surrender, Nemesis. I always win.

Red Nemesis

Vague jabs aren't required. Tobin's knowledge of Nihilus's command of the Force and his purported ability to hold the Ravager together has yet to be substantiated; Tobin hasn't demonstrated any particular expertise in the areas of the Force. He's a no-name military officer who happens to be under Nihilus's thrall: which is to say that his opinion is irrelevant.



That's all I need to do, you see. I just KO'd your source, which means you can manufacture the greatest argument in the history of mankind, but it doesn't matter: because you can't make use of Tobin as someone whose opinion is either credible or relevant.



Hence the crushing.







Hey look at nobody caring! All that matters is the loading screen. (I've always thought it was weird that Tobin was the one telling us this stuff. That is why I always cite the OOU material.)





idk. i do know that it was cemented as an actual feat though, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.



I'm pretty sure that this is round two, at least, of your struggles against this. You've never been able to get around that gosh darned loading screen, and this (clearly) is no exception.









Like nunca. You've never beaten me. Originally posted by GideonVague jabs aren't required. Tobin's knowledge of Nihilus's command of the Force and his purported ability to hold the Ravager together has yet to be substantiated; Tobin hasn't demonstrated any particular expertise in the areas of the Force. He's a no-name military officer who happens to be under Nihilus's thrall: which is to say that his opinion is irrelevant.That's all I need to do, you see. I just KO'd your source, which means you can manufacture the greatest argument in the history of mankind, but it doesn't matter: because you can't make use of Tobin as someone whose opinion is either credible or relevant.Hence the crushing.Hey look at nobody caring! All that matters is the loading screen. (I've always thought it was weird that Tobin was the one telling us this stuff. That is why I always cite the OOU material.)idk. i do know that it was cemented as an actual feat though, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.I'm pretty sure that this is round two, at least, of your struggles against this. You've never been able to get around that gosh darned loading screen, and this (clearly) is no exception.Like nunca. You've never beaten me.

Nephthys I'm still confused as to why there were frickin holes in the ship and nothing bad comes from it. There's something about particle fields at 3.19, but other than that I don't recall the ship actually having shields or anything that would actually keep the air in. That was why I always assumed N held it together really. I mean, at the end of the vid you should logically be standing in an f'ing void.



edit: Oh crap, I see you lurking Gideon. This isn't a serious theory or anything so please don't be getting all up in my grill about it.

Gideon

Hey look at nobody caring!







You demonstrate your apathy by devoting time and energy to responding?



You know what that means...



It's time for CONTRADICTION CORNER!



*cue the cheers*







Does the loading screen say he's holding the ship together?







So the feat is valid and the loading screen has said what people claim its saying because... we're talking about it?



That's not sound logic, Nemmy; Janus and co. used to say nonsense like Marka Ragnos could play ping-pong with planets and whatnot, but funny enough, you won't find any source that says it.



Provide the statement from the loading screen or STFU.



This is non-negotiable.



And make it soon.



plz







How can I get around what hasn't been provided? I love how hide behind a source despite apparently not having the faintest idea what it says.







I seem to recall, particularly in your first years here, every single match ended in your concessions.



You try to avoid arguing with me now; that's the fear I inspire in you.



RNHey look at nobody caring!You demonstrate your apathy by devoting time and energy to responding?You know what that means...It's time for CONTRADICTION CORNER!*cue the cheers*Does the loading screen say he's holding the ship together?So the feat is valid and the loading screen has said what people claim its saying because... we're talking about it?That's not sound logic, Nemmy; Janus and co. used to say nonsense like Marka Ragnos could play ping-pong with planets and whatnot, but funny enough, you won't find any source that says it.Provide the statement from the loading screen or STFU.This is non-negotiable.And make it soon.plzHow can I get around what hasn't been provided? I love how hide behind a source despite apparently not having the faintest idea what it says.I seem to recall, particularly in your first years here, every single match ended in your concessions.You try to avoid arguing with me now; that's the fear I inspire in you.

Gideon

edit: Oh crap, I see you lurking Gideon. This isn't a serious theory or anything so please don't be getting all up in my grill about it.



I was preparing an assault on the enemy facility that is your grill. Because you've asked nicely, I shall relent and call off my troops.







In all seriousness, I'm just yanking Red's chain, teasing him about his obvious inferiority and sexual insecurities, but I do so out of love. (Hence the emotes.)



In more-than-all seriousness, the same question was posed about the Death Star in TFU. Perhaps there's some sort of device, as mentioned in the TFU novelization (I think), that creates an artificial atmosphere?



Or is the Ravager too small? edit: Oh crap, I see you lurking Gideon. This isn't a serious theory or anything so please don't be getting all up in my grill about it.I was preparing an assault on the enemy facility that is your grill. Because you've asked nicely, I shall relent and call off my troops.In all seriousness, I'm just yanking Red's chain, teasing him about his obvious inferiority and sexual insecurities, but I do so out of love. (Hence the emotes.)In more-than-all seriousness, the same question was posed about the Death Star in TFU. Perhaps there's some sort of device, as mentioned in the TFU novelization (I think), that creates an artificial atmosphere?Or is the Ravager too small?

Gideon





ya



We have to call off the assault on N's grill. Stand down, man. Stand down. Dr McBeefington [email protected] CorneryaWe have to call off the assault on N's grill. Stand down, man. Stand down.

Dr McBeefington I don't know why you guys argue about Nihilus' feet years later, but I Just found "contradiction corner" to be random as hell and therefore, quite humorous.

Red Nemesis





You demonstrate your apathy by devoting time and energy to responding?



You know what that means...



It's time for CONTRADICTION CORNER!



*cue the cheers*



I must not have made myself clear. The thing that no one cares about is your ability to toss aside an in-universe source. See, it isn't a particularly impressive ability. Tobin being a (potentially) invalid source doesn't affect my platform at all.





I don't think so. Luckily, I don't care. The only feat that matters is that he pulled the Ravager out of a gravity well.





Actually, you haven't done a very good job of showing that it isn't sound logic. Comparing me to Janus "and co." in some kind of guilt-by-association gambit is in and of itself "not sound logic," while I am in a defensible position. It is sound logic because, at one point, we have had this discussion before. I was happy with the result, and you were not. That we are having the discussion now indicates that you are (by proxy through TJ) not content with the outcome. Thus, the last altercation over this matter was settled in my favor. But none of this matters since all that the above paragraph really amounts to is one elaborate ad hominem fallacy.





I'm beginning to wonder if you make grammatical mistakes just to bait me.



Anywhoo, i kno that thur is a source, and that it corroborates Tobin's story. That it exists is enough for casual inclusion in other debates. Now that you are challenging this specific feat I have to find the quote. It is taking longer than I expected.







um... congrats? I wasn't very good at this when I started. Now that I've gained competence, at the very least, you haven't exactly been eager to step into the ring.



Also you've never beat me. Originally posted by GideonYou demonstrate your apathy by devoting time and energy to responding?You know what that means...It's time for CONTRADICTION CORNER!*cue the cheers*I must not have made myself clear. The thing that no one cares about is your ability to toss aside an in-universe source. See, it isn't a particularly impressive ability. Tobin being a (potentially) invalid source doesn't affect my platform at all.I don't think so. Luckily, I don't care. The only feat that matters is that he pulled the Ravager out of a gravity well.Actually, you haven't done a very good job of showing that it isn't sound logic. Comparing me to Janus "and co." in some kind of guilt-by-association gambit is in and of itself "not sound logic," while I am in a defensible position. It is sound logic because, at one point, we have had this discussion before. I was happy with the result, and you were not. That we are having the discussion now indicates that you are (by proxy through TJ) not content with the outcome. Thus, the last altercation over this matter was settled in my favor. But none of this matters since all that the above paragraph really amounts to is one elaborate ad hominem fallacy.I'm beginning to wonder if you make grammatical mistakes just to bait me.Anywhoo, i kno that thur is a source, and that it corroborates Tobin's story. That it exists is enough for casual inclusion in other debates. Now that you are challenging this specific feat I have to find the quote. It is taking longer than I expected.um... congrats? I wasn't very good at this when I started. Now that I've gained competence, at the very least, you haven't exactly been eager to step into the ring.Also you've never beat me.

truejedi Not sure that the loading scene appeared in every game. They were kind of random selected, if I remember correctly.

Gideon Well someone seems to be getting a little defensive...















Who says I'm attacking your platform? My feelings about Nihilus's use of telekinesis are minimal; there is (apparently) no canon source that confirms that he held the ship together and you apparently have no idea what the loading screen says regarding his use of telekinesis in pulling the ship from Malachor; to say that your defense is paper-thin would be a compliment.



Because even if he did through brute telekinesis alone, what does it change? Where did I disagree or contradict?



This isn't rhetorical and I'll give you a 24 hours to provide proof of where this alters my platform at all.



Otherwise, coupled with your concession about Tobin as a source, I'll have to declare my victory in a most rude manner.

truejedi A loading screen does indeed say that Nihilus tore the Ravager from the gravity well of Malachor



That is not a quotation, but very close to one.

How is not stated, but in this case, Occum's Razor would seem to apply.

Gideon TJ

A loading screen does indeed say that Nihilus tore the Ravager from the gravity well of Malachor



That is not a quotation, but very close to one.



I'd like the exact quote and, if possible, a link.







We'll leap that hurdle whenif it gets here.

Red Nemesis Oh, I thought that TJ had said that you were talking shiit about the feat at some point. I'll quote it for you:

Originally posted by truejedi

Definitly disagree with Nihilus. There is no evidence that his drain would be effective against a highly tiered force user. His TK, while impressive, isn't shown to be entirely accurate.



As per Gideon, if the quote about him ripping the ships out a gravity well, and then holding it together with the force was correct, it should have fallen apart instantly when he died. It did not.

But whatevs.



If you would like to endorse the statement attributed to you then we can have a proper discussion with positions and everything!





In other news, I found it:



Three separate forums and the :talk page in the wookiee all have this version.



This is the only feat I care about, the discussion with TJ notwithstanding.

Red Nemesis Originally posted by Gideon

I'd like the exact quote and, if possible, a link.







We'll leap that hurdle whenif it gets here.

You realize that both lines you quoted came from the same post?

Autokrat You know what your problem is? You guys have all gone pure empirical and completely forgotten how to extrapolate.

Red Nemesis

You know what your problem is? You guys have all gone pure empirical and completely forgotten how to extrapolate.

I haven't.



(Which is funny because I fall much closer to the "Empiricist" side of the spectrum than to "rationalist." Originally posted by AutokratYou know what your problem is? You guys have all gone pure empirical and completely forgotten how to extrapolate.I haven't.(Which is funny because I fall much closer to the "Empiricist" side of the spectrum than to "rationalist."

truejedi This would have been a more accurate post.

truejedi I, for one, am not going to play KOTOR again to get a screenshot, as I don't even like N.

Gideon Interesting... interesting. So the quote doesn't identify the use of telekinesis? In fact, it doesn't identify the use of the Force at all.



I sense a great disturbancedeclaration in the Force...







Hearsay? Hearsay? You didn't bother to check for yourself, sir?



I'm going to have to dock points.



Even if did talk about the feat, it doesn't necessarily mean that I was "attacking your platform."







Another concession? Good, good. Keep them coming plz.

Nephthys I'd also like to point out that Nihilus, apparantly according to the 'Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide', was stuck on Malachor until he got off with the Ravager, so he has pretty much no chance of having lifted it off without using the Force.

Autokrat Originally posted by Gideon

Interesting... interesting. So the quote doesn't identify the use of telekinesis? In fact, it doesn't identify the use of the Force at all.



I sense a great disturbancedeclaration in the Force...







Hearsay? Hearsay? You didn't bother to check for yourself, sir?



I'm going to have to dock points.



Even if did talk about the feat, it doesn't necessarily mean that I was "attacking your platform."







Another concession? Good, good. Keep them coming plz.



So N used his awesome gravity manipulation gun and tore the Ravager out of the well?

truejedi or repairing it, and flying it out. Perhaps he used a little TK to help a bit, but didn't take on the full strength of the ship. Heck, if the ship had life support and lighting systems, it could easily have had launch rockets as well.

Autokrat

I haven't.



(Which is funny because I fall much closer to the "Empiricist" side of the spectrum than to "rationalist."



Kant's epistemology is the one thing he got right. Knowledge begins with experience, but rationalism is required to organize and extrapolate. Originally posted by Red NemesisI haven't.(Which is funny because I fall much closer to the "Empiricist" side of the spectrum than to "rationalist."Kant's epistemology is the one thing he got right. Knowledge begins with experience, but rationalism is required to organize and extrapolate.

Gideon Autokrat

So N used his awesome gravity manipulation gun and tore the Ravager out of the well?



Well, was I the only one who didn't miss the noticeable bulge in his robes? Obviously the gravity manipulation gun.



It seems just as valid as the notion that he pulled it out through the Force, since no one has offered incontroverible proof that Nihilus possesses remarkable telekinesis.

Nephthys The screen either says he ripped it out or lifted it out (I remember). Flying it out doesn't fit in with that.

Red Nemesis Originally posted by truejedi

or repairing it, and flying it out. Perhaps he used a little TK to help a bit, but didn't take on the full strength of the ship. Heck, if the ship had life support and lighting systems, it could easily have had launch rockets as well.

Please feel free to substantiate your claim regarding launch rockets on a ship constructed and operated entirely in outer space.



And shut up Gideon

Gideon

The screen either says he ripped it out or lifted it out (I remember). Flying it out doesn't fit in with that.



"Hauled out."







The screen either says he ripped it out or lifted it out (I remember). Flying it out doesn't fit in with that."Hauled out."

Autokrat Originally posted by Gideon

Well, was I the only one who missed the noticeable bulge in his robes? Obviously the gravity manipulation gun.



It seems just as valid as the notion that he pulled it out through the Force, since no one has offered incontroverible proof that Nihilus possesses remarkable telekinesis.



Considering that N was a soldier stuck on Malachor V, I would find it more likely that he didn't have access to magical gravity gun of which we have no proof exists.



Although how he got it flying while stuck on the ground is a question. A ship like that is going to have a lot of mass. Combine that with a magic gravity well and you have a ship that weighs a lot.

truejedi Actually DE, i'm fairly certain, it uses the word "tore".

Gideon Autokrat

Considering that N was a soldier stuck on Malachor V, I would find it more likely that he didn't have access to magical gravity gun of which we have no proof exists.



Well how do you know that the magical gravity gun wasn't simply part of the standard Sith uniform, in case of emergencies?



Perhaps Nihilus is also some sort of MacGyver-esque figure and was capable of designing such a device?



I'm obviously teasing you about the gun, but there is no proof that has been offered that concludes that Nihilus tore the ship out of the gravity well through telekinesis.



You can say how it's the best possible explanation, but that doesn't make it absolute.







If one removes the cartridge from the Magical Gravity Manipulation Gun and replaces it with a Repair Star Destroyer cartridge, it can theoretically be used to... repair a Star Destroyer.



Edit: RN's investigations concluded that the quote says "haul." But I'm not sure that makes a difference.

Autokrat Originally posted by Gideon

Well how do you know that the magical gravity gun wasn't simply part of the standard Sith uniform, in case of emergencies?



Perhaps Nihilus is also some sort of MacGyver-esque figure and was capable of designing such a device?



I'm obviously teasing you about the gun, but there is no proof that has been offered that concludes that Nihilus tore the ship out of the gravity well through telekinesis.



You can say how it's the best possible explanation, but that doesn't make it absolute.







If one removes the cartridge from the Magical Gravity Manipulation Gun and replaces it with a Repair Star Destroyer cartridge, it can theoretically be used to... repair a Star Destroyer.



No where, am I claiming it is absolute and nor should I have to. We do not need absolute anything to make conclusions. Sadly, this bad habit has developed here at SWVF for the past two years.

truejedi I absolutely know it did not use the word "haul"



And that doesn't even sound like he used force if it did.

Gideon What has been offered (rather tenaciously and vigorously) by a certain faction is that Nihilus used the Force (specifically telekinesis) to haul the Ravager out of Malachor's gravity well.



I ask for proof, I get almost nothing. Certainly not enough to prove that.

Red Nemesis





Autokrat, this is what DS would call "grasping at straws." Usually, Gideon would then be the one to laugh at him. I guess I'll have to fill in for that step.

Nephthys Hauled and tore are just fancy white devil ways of saying ripped or lifted. And by sweet Urkel I refuse to use the slave language whitey imposes on me.

Red Nemesis DE, you'r not black.

Gideon Originally posted by Red Nemesis

DE, you'r not black.



"I'm wondering if you're making grammatical mistakes just to bait me."

Nephthys I'm almost black.



http://www.papermag.com/blogs/marcus%20playgirl.jpg



See? Surely that almost counts.

Red Nemesis Didn't we declare a moritorium on that photo?



If I can't spam images of preemies then you can't have... that

Nephthys ) and apparantly am rather well indowed doesn't mean I don't have the right to post my shnazzy sort-of blackness as I wish. Fo-shizzle!



edit: //S\\ ? I find that to be incredibly racist. Just becuase I'm black (but not 'too' black, heaven forbid) and apparantly am rather well indowed doesn't mean I don't have the right to post my shnazzy sort-of blackness as I wish. Fo-shizzle!edit: //S\\ ?

truejedi who was that fool that kept actually posting pictures of himself on here a few months back? Was that KOTOR3?

truejedi hmmm, according to wookipedia (not a source, I know) A mass shadow generator was what was creating the gravity field on Malachor. Nihilus ripped his fleet, not from the surface of the planet, but from the pull of the mass shadow generator (which had been set up to trap the fleet at Malachor.)



For what wookie is worth...

Nephthys Hey look, I found this kickass respect thread in the Vgforums. If anyone needs some quotes, just look there, though the youtube links are dead mostly.



Of particular note is that Canderous mentions that the ship should have fallen apart by now, which supports the 'N was holding it together' argument, that Tobin mentions that N's keeping himself (Tobin) and the whole crew alive, possibly indicating a bond and that N was already weakened by hunger before his fight with teh Exile, which I'd forgotten.



Though Blax calls Gideon and Lightsnake the two best debators on KMC, so obviously the thread can't be that in tune with reality.

Red Nemesis

No. They are not Palpatine fanboys. In fact they really don't like Sidious.

Originally posted by ESB -1138No. They are not Palpatine fanboys. In fact they really don't like Sidious.

truejedi Originally posted by Nephthys





Of particular note is that Canderous mentions that the ship should have fallen apart by now, which supports the 'N was holding it together'

.



DE, stop it! This was the quote:



Mandalore: is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago.

Which clearly says : The Ravager is barely holding itself together.

Red Nemesis *sigh*



In universe source, non-expert source, limited information, ambiguous (or colloquial) wording, and the list goes on.



That quote doesn't do ship for either side. It might be used to show the state of disrepair of the ship, but it is not conclusive as far as any agency or determinant of integrity.

truejedi Originally posted by Red Nemesis

.



That quote doesn't do ship for either side..



heehee

Red Nemesis or did you mean lol?

truejedi I could possibly, indeed have meant lol.

Red Nemesis



because i would hope that you respect me enough not to lie to me; you would not say 'lol' unless you actually laughed out loud. I was hoping that you would disambiguate the post

Autokrat

because i would hope that you respect me enough not to lie to me; you would not say 'lol' unless you actually laughed out loud. I was hoping that you would disambiguate the post







~lol Originally posted by Red Nemesisbecause i would hope that you respect me enough not to lie to me; you would not say 'lol' unless you actually laughed out loud. I was hoping that you would disambiguate the post~lol

darth radon Originally posted by HeartoftheForce

"Palpatine was employing the same weakness charade he used on Mace, Anakin, Luke, and countless others. He loves that trick. He attacked Kota and not Galen because the former intervened and disrupted his tactic.



Feigning weakness is part of Sidious's fighting style as well."



I could agree with that. I believe that's exactly what he did with Mace. But where would you put Sidious and Galen on the list?



Oh and I kind of threw Kol in there on a whim. Didn't have much to go on though. Better spot to put him? I disagree with some things in the begining of the list such starkiller, how kicked vaders A$$, pwned like 20 jedi /dark jedi, almost killed the sith and was younger than anikan at the end of rots. An hhis dad did pretty D*mn good vs vader

Lord Lucien 20? Right.

Nephthys Its more like 8. In the game at least. Though the Force Unleashed novel makes them out to be actually quite powerful.

Cian Beirdd I tinkered with something like this myself, read a lot first. Wrote about it on my blog. George Lucas himself has said Anakin and his twin children all have the same levels. In 'Death Star' a character has a level of 3,000 and is said to be mildly Force Sensitive. It is kept a secret, however, as anyone at that number or over is to be handed over to the emperor to be killed. The rest I guessed as well as I could too

Dolos Good list:



I would put Cade and Tenebrae above Galen Marek: who I'd put at around the same as Plagueis and Sidious - just above Yoda. Marek was the son of two Jedi. Yoda was a Whill, all of his kind ended up Jedi Masters, were very long lived, and very strong in the Force. That's just his species affinity, and he was a high tier of his species to boot. I would put Cade above Tenebrae, being a Skywalker and all.



I praise you putting Exar Kun so high. Most people would underestimate him. Bane and Zannah should be way high on that list, just below Kun probably. Kyp Durron should have a slightly higher MC-count than Galen Marek even, he had an extremely high potential, almost matching Luke's, although he believed his was higher than Luke's. Sidious claimed again and again that Leia had even more potential than Luke in DE, I'd put her above Luke. Anakin is at the pinnacle for being a vergence in the Force.



As for Plagueis, his was increasing and might have climbed above Sidious and Marek.

Dolos Some other characters, who'd have higher midi-chlorian counts than all but the Skywalkers, would be Rell - the Dathomirian Elder Witch from the courtship of Princess Leia. Though she was only a Dathomirian human who are not descended from any long lived species, she lived 300 years due to her strength in the Force. That is a sign of a very high midi-chlorian count, as midi-chlorians are drawn to those strong in the Force, and in turn rejuvenate that life form, making it live longer.

Total Warrior Could I add my own midichlorian count list as well ?

Kurk Pretty good though I'd move Ahsoka up 5000 or so. Dooku and Kenobi can be switched too IMO. Dooku did meet his full potential and Kenobi did or was close to as well, but I never saw him surpassing Dooku in terms of force potential. Both are refined, but Dooku has the advantage.

Total Warrior

Nephthys Doesn't Tenebrous thinking the Chosen One might even have a count of 15,000 suggest thats already kind of ridiculously high?

Deronn_solo The OP's list is absolute cancer.

Total Warrior Originally posted by Nephthys

Doesn't Tenebrous thinking the Chosen One might even have a count of 15,000 suggest thats already kind of ridiculously high? if you are talking to me, I didn't know about that statement. Aniway,i'm also pretty sure that 10000 was stated to be your average level for a jedi, so i think 15000 is a bit too low. Also, what do you think about Bane's placement being on par with Dooku? Should he be higher/lower? And i just realized i skipped Zannah

The Ellimist Originally posted by Nephthys

Doesn't Tenebrous thinking the Chosen One might even have a count of 15,000 suggest thats already kind of ridiculously high?



Yeah, it does.



Obi Wan says Anakin's is "over 20,000", I'll take an educated guess and say that if it were, say, over 21,000, he'd have said "ever 21,000".



Anakin: between 20,000 and 21,000

Sidious: half of Anakin's



Then Yoda's is probably modestly below Sidious's, Luke's is either equal to or somewhat less than Anakin's, the other Skywalker's likely fall in that range; Anakin Solo's may rival Luke's, Jacen's is probably slightly below that, and Jaina - well, it seems like Jaina's is lower for some reason, or maybe she's just not progressing quickly in spite of her potential. Perhaps some of the later Skywalkers have lower counts, maybe even lower than Sidious's.



Other people with counts probably above Sidious: Galen Marek, Kyp Durron, maybe Kar Vastor. Maybe Maul.



No idea how UnuThul fits into this.

relentless1 for those that increase the midichlorian count for certain characters...these aren't DBZ power levels; the count youre born with is what you have, you can't increase it through training or anything.Period. the only character thats canon that should have a change in their midichlorian count is Vader and thats only because GL himself stated as much.



Now we know that Anakin has a count of "over 20,000" according to Obi Wan in TPM; both he and Qui Gon were astonished and specifically state that "even Master Yoda doesn't have a count that high"



meaning that Anakin is about 20,000



Sidiolus and Yoda are probably about 19,000 each



When Anakin is sliced and diced he drops to about 80% of the Emperor which puts him around 15,000 count.

Darth Abonis The initial list is good, but borrows from Super Shadow. Anakin would not be 27,000 as it would be stated "almost 30,000" then "over 20,000"

Rebel95 It was off the charts, so it could have been 100,000 for all we know

Darth Abonis Arcann should be equal to Galen Marek, 22,000 and no Vitate/Valkorion?

S_W_LeGenD Valkorion would not have a Midichlorian count.

ILS How does he use the Force in a body if not with Midichlorians, LeGenD?

His spirit certainly lacks that restriction, though.

LukeSkytalker7 Personally I believe your list is almost perfect. I agree with a lot of placements and numbers. The only numbers that I notice was Anakin should be 27,700 and Han 1,500. I believe it is in Star Wars Graphics. And only other issue is Sidious (much to my sadness) is more powerful then Galen Marek. But I would not lower Galen Marek that much though. Personally I'd rank him 19,500. Other than that great work.

UCanShootMyNova Originally posted by LukeSkytalker7

Personally I believe your list is almost perfect. I agree with a lot of placements and numbers. The only numbers that I notice was Anakin should be 27,700 and Han 1,500. I believe it is in Star Wars Graphics. And only other issue is Sidious (much to my sadness) is more powerful then Galen Marek. But I would not lower Galen Marek that much though. Personally I'd rank him 19,500. Other than that great work.



Galen canonically has a higher midichlorian count then Sidious.

relentless1 Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

Galen canonically has a higher midichlorian count then Sidious.



quote your source man!

UCanShootMyNova "Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever." - Insider 100.

Haschwalth Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

"Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever." - Insider 100.

Potential to be Stronger than luke eh?

Bullshit.

Stronger than the chosen one pre suit?

Bullshit.

Stronger than the Ones of mortis?

Bullshit.

Stronger than abeloth?

Bullshit.

UCanShootMyNova It's hard to except the truth.

Rockydonovang Originally posted by Haschwalth

Potential to be Stronger than luke eh?

Bullshit.



Luke was a kid at this point. Marek achieving his potential wouldn't happen after Luke achieved his so Luke is excluded here.

Originally posted by Haschwalth

Stronger than the chosen one pre suit?

Bullshit.



Anakin never came close to achieving his potential so he isn't included in the quote either.

UCanShootMyNova Kbro's actually correct here. And so he surpasses another KMC low tier...

DarthAnt66 It should be also noted that Insider says RotJ Luke beats Starkiller in a fight.

UCanShootMyNova Are you talking about those vs comics things or something else?

Haschwalth Originally posted by Rockydonovang

Luke was a kid at this point. Marek achieving his potential wouldn't happen after Luke achieved his so Luke is excluded here.



Anakin never came close to achieving his potential so he isn't included in the quote either.



I'm sorry? Luke is alive at the time this quote was stated? Being a child doesn't take away his potential wtf....



Anakin "had" the potential, more so than Marek. He just lost it.

And Marak never achieved his potential.

UCanShootMyNova @Has: What he's saying is that the quote doesn't apply to potential. Galen had the potential to be the most powerful Force user who had existed up to that point. Not that he had greater potential then anybody else.

LukeSkytalker7 Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

Galen canonically has a higher midichlorian count then Sidious.

That actually makes me happy. I love Galen Marek. Huge fan. Personally I hope your right about him being more powerful. I love OP Starkiller.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

It should be also noted that Insider says RotJ Luke beats Starkiller in a fight.



Originally posted by DarthAnt66It should be also noted that Insider says RotJ Luke beats Starkiller in a fight.

UCanShootMyNova What are guys referring to?

Deronn_solo The non-canon "Vs" series.



Using that as justification for anything is pretty lal-worthy, ngl.

UCanShootMyNova Ah. That.

Haschwalth Originally posted by Deronn_solo

The non-canon "Vs" series.



Using that as justification for anything is pretty lal-worthy, ngl.



Not really when Canon characters can't touch feats like Nihilus/Valkorians Draining/DF planets. Possessing, thousands to billions of people. Having the



Outlander defeating a droid, that Tanked a turbo laser, from the gravestone, which are somewhere between the Megaton to gigaton range in energy.



Matching the energies from a botched ritual, which devastated Ambria, superior to Manipulating solar flares.



Manipulating, planet level energies, Changing climates by mere presence.

Telepathically preventing a Bomb, capable of razing a planets surface.



Not mention the dozens of sources on speed, from micro to nanoseconds, which Canon doesn't have.



Then the range of abilities in Legends far exceeds canon.



Not to mention the portrayal of Legends to canon characters.

Dooku gets captured by 30 pirates. Mace wiped out armies barehanded in legends, Revan was stated to of been able to take out the combined militaries of the empire/Republic singlehandedly.



I'm sorry trying to mix Canon with Legends in combat is like trying to Mix oil with water.



They are in different realms of power.

MythLord Originally posted by Deronn_solo

The non-canon "Vs" series.



Using that as justification for anything is pretty lal-worthy, ngl.



Well, that's where the statement that Galen has the most potential out of anyone Vader ever met comes from. It renders it in it's entirety non-canon then.

DarthAnt66 Originally posted by Deronn_solo

The non-canon "Vs" series.

Quote?

UCanShootMyNova Originally posted by MythLord

Well, that's where the statement that Galen has the most potential out of anyone Vader ever met comes from. It renders it in it's entirety non-canon then.



We're dismissing all sources from Insider now?



*Shrug*



Doesn't matter much to me but I doubt the forum is going to accept that.

Fated Xtasy Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

"Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever." - Insider 100.

Come back when Sidious considers Galen to be> Vader like he did Olin



:3

UCanShootMyNova Damn.



I just got oneshot.

The Merchant We all know Anakins count exceeded 20K by an unknown amount. We also know that potential was twice of Palpatines and Suit Vader was 80% of Palps potential. So we can do the following.



Lowball:



Anakin: Exactly 20,000.



Palpatine: 10,000.



Yoda: 10,000~ (rough equal to Palps)



Luke/Leia: 20,000 (Lucas said Luke can become what Anakin didn't)



Vader: 8,000



Highball, assuming Yoda has 20,000



Anakin: 40,000+



Palpatine: 20,000+



Yoda: 20,000



Luke/Leia: 40,000+



Vader: 16,000+

KingTalker2002 Alright,i agree with some of your counts but some i do not.I do not agree with the following counts:Luke Skywalkers/Leia Skywalker should be 24240,Darth Sidious should be 21500,Cade Skywalkers should be atleast 22000,Ben Skywalkers and Ben Solos count should be atleast 20000 since they are descendants of the chosen one,well pretty much everyone with skywalkerblood inside of him should have a count of atleast 19000,i would not put Mace Windu that high and Yoda also not.I would put Mace Windu at 15000-17000 and Yoda 17300.Darth Sion also higher atleast 16000 and Darth Traya at 13700 and Darth Nihilus should be atleast 18000 and you forgot about Darth Vititate.I would put him at 20000.Thats the major things i saw.

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