6.78: Patch Retrospective August 30th, 2013 17:35 GMT Text by phantasmal Graphics by riptide The International 3



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6.78: Patch Retrospective







by phantasmal



With the International over and 6.79 on the theoretical horizon, it's a good time to look at how the general playerbase has responded to the balance shifts in the current patch. To do this, I've put together four samples of public matchmaking games of roughly 35,000 games each. The sample comes in two pairs. The former was collected from the months of January through March of this year, and covers a large stretch of 6.77 (and no games from 6.77c). The latter is made up of games that took place between June 4th and is split between 6.78 and 6.78c. Each pair is then further divided into games that fall under the Normal bracket and games that fall under the Very High bracket as defined by the Dota 2 client.



So let's start by looking at the heroes with the greatest increase of usage between the two patches in Very High:







Let's start with the big one, Treant Protector. As I've covered elsewhere,



Spiritbreaker is our second biggest mover, and while his 6.78 buff to Charge of Darkness has only helped him to see a tiny bit of competitive play, it has succeeded in turning him into the preeminent pubstomper of the patch. Due to sample size issues, the win rates I have aren't super precise, but based off what I do have it's rather likely that Spiritbreaker is at least in the top 5 heroes in Very High rated matches.



Moving down a bit, we have Huskar and Timbersaw. Both heroes saw a substantial set of changes in 6.78, and both heroes have seen their win rates go up as a result. Incidentally, this sample independently confirms my previous finding that



Besides win rate increases, one of the biggest movers in usage trends is players imitating competitive play. Weaver, Alchemist, Spectre, and Visage are I suspect a result of this, as none of these heroes saw major changes in 6.78. Visage and Alchemist have obviously been blowing up for months in the Eastern scene, and Weaver's popularity surge was demonstrated during the TI3 prelims. Spectre is a hero that has been held back competitively by aggressive trilanes, but her public win rates over the last couple patches have been consistently high, which I suspect is a result of people finally catching on to the buff Desolate saw back in 6.75. Clockwerk might also be a case of imitation, but I had thought his competitive usage had fallen off a bit recently.



That leaves us with Outworld Devourer, Doom, and Mirana. All three of these heroes saw noteworthy buffs in 6.78 that while not as extreme as some of the others have still boosted their usage. For Outworld Devourer, the 5 extra movespeed he received in 6.78 has had a noticeable effect on his overall win rate and likely contributed to the attention he received during TI3. Mirana received bonus damage on her Arrow and a reduced cooldown on her Ult. Neither change was earth-shattering, but they've definitely helped her out and Mirana is the kind of hero that Very High players love to pick. Doom, well, some of his surge might be attributable to people playing around with his new Aghanim's effect, but I suspect that there's actually something more long-term going on here. His Very High winrate is up this patch without a corresponding shift in Normal, which could just be sampling error, but it's impossible to reach a solid conclusion without getting more data.



Meanwhile, on the bottom end of usage rate trends:







The bottom four are all heroes that got hit hard in 6.78 (or 6.77c) and saw big drops in their win rates as a result. Granted, all four had been +55%, so the nerfs weren't exactly unwarranted.



Phantom Lancer is the biggest loser in terms of usage due to the damage nerf to his illusions. He's still very much viable in pubs as well as competitive play, but it seems like a lot of the attention he was receiving was driven solely by the desire for easy wins.



Drow Ranger is a similar story, except that she never made it into Captain's Mode before the nerfs she received in 6.77c. She's big a bit of a problem child as far as balance goes, as any change that might make her competitive in professional play seems destined to make her too mindlessly successful in public games.



Keeper of the Light's decline came as a two part story, with Illuminate nerfs in 6.77c and a small Base Strength nerf in 6.78. Like Phantom Lancer, he's still viable, but he's not the +95% Pick/Ban hero in competitive games that he was during the first quarter of the year.



Finally we have Troll Warlord. While he did see a nerf to his ultimate in 6.78, the bigger story is the bugfix that restored a cast time to the melee version of Whirling Axes. The net effect was similar to what happened to Ursa in 6.75 when Overpower was given a cast time, and it also explains why Troll's Dota2 win rate was much higher than many Dota1 players had predicted. Troll was recently added to Captain's Mode, and he certainly has a chance of becoming at least a niche pickup in competitive games, but his odds of showing up are certainly lower than they would have been in 6.77.



The rest of the list is tricky, and in general they're smaller movements that don't constitute major trends. Undying and Centaur Warrunner are both heroes that have seen substantial downwards tuning, so their decline in 6.78 might just be the residue of larger declines in previous patches. It's also the case that many of the heroes on the rest of the list, such as Brewmaster, Tidehunter, and Enigma, are heroes that are largely dependent on teamfight ultimates. Their decline could be a result of the public meta imitating the recent professional meta that places a greater emphasis on multi-core lineups.



If you'd like to see the complete findings, you can find a spreadsheet containing the data











CREDITS

Writers: phantasmal

Gfx: riptide, Heyoka

Editors: TheEmulator

Photography and art via

Writers: phantasmalGfx: riptide, HeyokaEditors: TheEmulatorPhotography and art via Valve and R1CH With the International over and 6.79 on the theoretical horizon, it's a good time to look at how the general playerbase has responded to the balance shifts in the current patch. To do this, I've put together four samples of public matchmaking games of roughly 35,000 games each. The sample comes in two pairs. The former was collected from the months of January through March of this year, and covers a large stretch of 6.77 (and no games from 6.77c). The latter is made up of games that took place between June 4th and is split between 6.78 and 6.78c. Each pair is then further divided into games that fall under the Normal bracket and games that fall under the Very High bracket as defined by the Dota 2 client.So let's start by looking at the heroes with the greatest increase of usage between the two patches in Very High:Let's start with the big one,. As I've covered elsewhere, 6.77c was a huge patch for Treant, and public matchmaking has certainly caught onto it. His 164% surge in usage almost doubles the next largest increase. Interestingly, Treant was also the #1 increase in Normal, but at a more modest 54%. Normal trends are often a faint echo of what we see in Very High. While Treant's nerf in 6.78c has brought him back down to earth competitively (he was a relatively rare pick at TI3 with a 6-7 record overall), it hasn't appeared to have effected him much in public play.is our second biggest mover, and while his 6.78 buff to Charge of Darkness has only helped him to see a tiny bit of competitive play, it has succeeded in turning him into the preeminent pubstomper of the patch. Due to sample size issues, the win rates I have aren't super precise, but based off what I do have it's rather likely that Spiritbreaker is at least in the top 5 heroes in Very High rated matches.Moving down a bit, we haveBoth heroes saw a substantial set of changes in 6.78, and both heroes have seen their win rates go up as a result. Incidentally, this sample independently confirms my previous finding that Huskar's rework has turned him into one of the highest win rate heroes in Very High games Besides win rate increases, one of the biggest movers in usage trends is players imitating competitive play. Weaver, Alchemist, Spectre, and Visage are I suspect a result of this, as none of these heroes saw major changes in 6.78.andhave obviously been blowing up for months in the Eastern scene, andpopularity surge was demonstrated during the TI3 prelims.is a hero that has been held back competitively by aggressive trilanes, but her public win rates over the last couple patches have been consistently high, which I suspect is a result of people finally catching on to the buff Desolate saw back in 6.75.might also be a case of imitation, but I had thought his competitive usage had fallen off a bit recently.That leaves us with Outworld Devourer, Doom, and Mirana. All three of these heroes saw noteworthy buffs in 6.78 that while not as extreme as some of the others have still boosted their usage. For, the 5 extra movespeed he received in 6.78 has had a noticeable effect on his overall win rate and likely contributed to the attention he received during TI3.received bonus damage on her Arrow and a reduced cooldown on her Ult. Neither change was earth-shattering, but they've definitely helped her out and Mirana is the kind of hero that Very High players love to pick., well, some of his surge might be attributable to people playing around with his new Aghanim's effect, but I suspect that there's actually something more long-term going on here. His Very High winrate is up this patch without a corresponding shift in Normal, which could just be sampling error, but it's impossible to reach a solid conclusion without getting more data.Meanwhile, on the bottom end of usage rate trends:The bottom four are all heroes that got hit hard in 6.78 (or 6.77c) and saw big drops in their win rates as a result. Granted, all four had been +55%, so the nerfs weren't exactly unwarranted.is the biggest loser in terms of usage due to the damage nerf to his illusions. He's still very much viable in pubs as well as competitive play, but it seems like a lot of the attention he was receiving was driven solely by the desire for easy wins.is a similar story, except that she never made it into Captain's Mode before the nerfs she received in 6.77c. She's big a bit of a problem child as far as balance goes, as any change that might make her competitive in professional play seems destined to make her too mindlessly successful in public games.decline came as a two part story, with Illuminate nerfs in 6.77c and a small Base Strength nerf in 6.78. Like Phantom Lancer, he's still viable, but he's not the +95% Pick/Ban hero in competitive games that he was during the first quarter of the year.Finally we have. While he did see a nerf to his ultimate in 6.78, the bigger story is the bugfix that restored a cast time to the melee version of Whirling Axes. The net effect was similar to what happened to Ursa in 6.75 when Overpower was given a cast time, and it also explains why Troll's Dota2 win rate was much higher than many Dota1 players had predicted. Troll was recently added to Captain's Mode, and he certainly has a chance of becoming at least a niche pickup in competitive games, but his odds of showing up are certainly lower than they would have been in 6.77.The rest of the list is tricky, and in general they're smaller movements that don't constitute major trends.andare both heroes that have seen substantial downwards tuning, so their decline in 6.78 might just be the residue of larger declines in previous patches. It's also the case that many of the heroes on the rest of the list, such as, and, are heroes that are largely dependent on teamfight ultimates. Their decline could be a result of the public meta imitating the recent professional meta that places a greater emphasis on multi-core lineups.If you'd like to see the complete findings, you can find a spreadsheet containing the data here . To close things off, I present to you without comment the hero usage trends in 6.78 between Normal and Very High. Writer

TheEmulator Profile Joined July 2010 12999 Posts #2 Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs Administrator

Plansix Profile Joined April 2011 United States 44957 Posts #3 On August 31 2013 02:36 TheEmulator wrote:

Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs

SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse. SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse. I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6

Kuroeeah Profile Joined February 2013 7937 Posts #4 Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

Kuroeeah Profile Joined February 2013 7937 Posts #5 On August 31 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 02:36 TheEmulator wrote:

Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs

SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse. SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse.

Rubick is also good agaisnt SB. Rubick is also good agaisnt SB.

Plansix Profile Joined April 2011 United States 44957 Posts #6 On August 31 2013 02:41 Kuroeeah wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:36 TheEmulator wrote:

Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs

SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse. SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse.

Rubick is also good agaisnt SB. Rubick is also good agaisnt SB.

Steal charge on the way in. Pick SB up, throw his ass into a group of creeps and your tower, charge him under the tower. Profit. Steal charge on the way in. Pick SB up, throw his ass into a group of creeps and your tower, charge him under the tower. Profit. I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6

TheEmulator Profile Joined July 2010 12999 Posts #7 On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.



I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. Administrator

LowEloPlayer Profile Joined March 2012 United States 7 Posts #8 Great article. Though I have one slight disagreement/counterpoint, you said that treant wasn't picked very much in TI3. Are you sure that's not just because the teams who do pick treant got knocked out early (i.e. western teams that are not navi or alliance)? Chinese teams and navi/alliance rarely pick up treant from what I've seen. hmm... let's think about it

TheEmulator Profile Joined July 2010 12999 Posts #9 On August 31 2013 02:48 LowEloPlayer wrote:

Great article. Though I have one slight disagreement/counterpoint, you said that treant wasn't picked very much in TI3. Are you sure that's not just because the teams who do pick treant got knocked out early (i.e. western teams that are not navi or alliance)? Chinese teams and navi/alliance rarely pick up treant from what I've seen.

That's a possibility, but we didn't see him much in the preliminaries either, and no teams were knocked out there. That's a possibility, but we didn't see him much in the preliminaries either, and no teams were knocked out there. Administrator

Kuroeeah Profile Joined February 2013 7937 Posts #10 On August 31 2013 02:48 LowEloPlayer wrote:

Great article. Though I have one slight disagreement/counterpoint, you said that treant wasn't picked very much in TI3. Are you sure that's not just because the teams who do pick treant got knocked out early (i.e. western teams that are not navi or alliance)? Chinese teams and navi/alliance rarely pick up treant from what I've seen.

Mmmm. I might be wrong about this but Treant felt like a first pick material to a situational one and teams didnt really get knocked out "early" given the 16 teams all played a large amount of games in the preliminaries. Mmmm. I might be wrong about this but Treant felt like a first pick material to a situational one and teams didnt really get knocked out "early" given the 16 teams all played a large amount of games in the preliminaries.

Sn0_Man Profile Joined October 2012 Tebellong 31461 Posts #11 This article is sick!



So many tree pickers o.o Moderator SCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302

Comeh Profile Joined July 2008 United States 12918 Posts #12 On August 31 2013 02:46 TheEmulator wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.



I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it.

Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks) Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks) ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(

SirMilford Profile Joined September 2010 Australia 386 Posts #13 On August 31 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 02:36 TheEmulator wrote:

Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs Nice analysis of 6.78. Further confirms my thoughts that Treant and SB are OP in pubs

SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse. SB is OP if your team can't figure out how to counter pick. He is the hyper suck if you get a good stun on your team. Or my personal favorite, Glimpse.

you can't rely on glimpse though, if you glimpse and he manages to get ulti off he will simply teleport straight back into your team.



It is extremely difficult to deal with SB in pubs if you aren't in a stack of some kind, smart SB's buy smoke to counter the entire "ward the map" deal that most people seem to think works. His level 3-5 gank on mid lane often can start an extreme snowball situation. It is not that his is OP in any sort off way, simply people play him better now. you can't rely on glimpse though, if you glimpse and he manages to get ulti off he will simply teleport straight back into your team.It is extremely difficult to deal with SB in pubs if you aren't in a stack of some kind, smart SB's buy smoke to counter the entire "ward the map" deal that most people seem to think works. His level 3-5 gank on mid lane often can start an extreme snowball situation. It is not that his is OP in any sort off way, simply people play him better now.

Kuroeeah Profile Joined February 2013 7937 Posts #14 On August 31 2013 03:01 Comeh wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 02:46 TheEmulator wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.



I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it.

Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks) Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks)

I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.



If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC. I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC.

Plansix Profile Joined April 2011 United States 44957 Posts #15 On August 31 2013 03:08 Kuroeeah wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 03:01 Comeh wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:46 TheEmulator wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.



I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it.

Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks) Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks)

I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.



If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC. I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC.

They talked about a Shot Clock equivalent on the Giant Bomb Cast when they discussed the international. Something that would at least force more engagement and prevent the heavy farming styles and provide some counter play to split pushing. But I do agree that some game changes will be nice to keep the game more active. One more thing to fight over could make a big difference in the game. They talked about a Shot Clock equivalent on the Giant Bomb Cast when they discussed the international. Something that would at least force more engagement and prevent the heavy farming styles and provide some counter play to split pushing. But I do agree that some game changes will be nice to keep the game more active. One more thing to fight over could make a big difference in the game. I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6

Kuroeeah Profile Joined February 2013 7937 Posts #16 On August 31 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 03:08 Kuroeeah wrote:

On August 31 2013 03:01 Comeh wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:46 TheEmulator wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.



I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it.

Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks) Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks)

I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.



If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC. I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC.

They talked about a Shot Clock equivalent on the Giant Bomb Cast when they discussed the international. Something that would at least force more engagement and prevent the heavy farming styles and provide some counter play to split pushing. But I do agree that some game changes will be nice to keep the game more active. One more thing to fight over could make a big difference in the game. They talked about a Shot Clock equivalent on the Giant Bomb Cast when they discussed the international. Something that would at least force more engagement and prevent the heavy farming styles and provide some counter play to split pushing. But I do agree that some game changes will be nice to keep the game more active. One more thing to fight over could make a big difference in the game.

It has to be through a hero or maybe a tweak in gold/xp income as opposed to adding in this arbitrary "Your hero loses HP constantly if he/she hasn't attacked an opposing hero for 5 minutes!" sorta thing. It has to be through a hero or maybe a tweak in gold/xp income as opposed to adding in this arbitrary "Your hero loses HP constantly if he/she hasn't attacked an opposing hero for 5 minutes!" sorta thing.

max1c Profile Joined April 2010 Ukraine 3 Posts #17 On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.



http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/the-size-of-dotas-skill-brackets-2013-edition/ `O_o

Plansix Profile Joined April 2011 United States 44957 Posts Last Edited: 2013-08-30 18:26:22 #18 On August 31 2013 03:18 Kuroeeah wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:

On August 31 2013 03:08 Kuroeeah wrote:

On August 31 2013 03:01 Comeh wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:46 TheEmulator wrote:

On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.

I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.



I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it. I will ask phantasmal next time I talk to him, I'm curious too.I can't wait for 6.79 though. Hopefully things change with it.

Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks) Interestingly, the thing I'm looking forward the most from 6.79 isn't a change to heroes, but some of the changes that happen aside from (IE, i'm looking for assist gold rewards to go down a bit with this next patch to help dealing with snowballs / comebacks)

I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.



If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC. I feel hero balance is fine, I agree that general changes to the game is what Im personally looking forward too.If I would change a few things, it would be a slight nerf to Timber and maybee TC.

They talked about a Shot Clock equivalent on the Giant Bomb Cast when they discussed the international. Something that would at least force more engagement and prevent the heavy farming styles and provide some counter play to split pushing. But I do agree that some game changes will be nice to keep the game more active. One more thing to fight over could make a big difference in the game. They talked about a Shot Clock equivalent on the Giant Bomb Cast when they discussed the international. Something that would at least force more engagement and prevent the heavy farming styles and provide some counter play to split pushing. But I do agree that some game changes will be nice to keep the game more active. One more thing to fight over could make a big difference in the game.

It has to be through a hero or maybe a tweak in gold/xp income as opposed to adding in this arbitrary "Your hero loses HP constantly if he/she hasn't attacked an opposing hero for 5 minutes!" sorta thing. It has to be through a hero or maybe a tweak in gold/xp income as opposed to adding in this arbitrary "Your hero loses HP constantly if he/she hasn't attacked an opposing hero for 5 minutes!" sorta thing.

More like Roshan, which is what forces fights in the game. Roshan is a close as the game gets to a shot clock, since you have to pay attention to it or lose the game. Clearly I am not suggesting adding a second Roshan, but something that would pull the teams out of their bases more often would be helpful in keeping the game moving. It doesn't have to be huge, but something players cannot ignore and have to at least move out to deal with.



Another thought is a way for teams to push back after a good defense, like a armor buff to the next creep wave if a hero is killed in the teir 3 towers vision. Nothing massive, but something beyond gold that lets a team push out of the base and regain map control. More like Roshan, which is what forces fights in the game. Roshan is a close as the game gets to a shot clock, since you have to pay attention to it or lose the game. Clearly I am not suggesting adding a second Roshan, but something that would pull the teams out of their bases more often would be helpful in keeping the game moving. It doesn't have to be huge, but something players cannot ignore and have to at least move out to deal with.Another thought is a way for teams to push back after a good defense, like a armor buff to the next creep wave if a hero is killed in the teir 3 towers vision. Nothing massive, but something beyond gold that lets a team push out of the base and regain map control. I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6

Osiccor Profile Joined March 2011 Canada 41 Posts Last Edited: 2013-08-30 18:25:39 #19 Where do you get these data? I like to have the raw data to play with.

Ragoo Profile Joined March 2010 Germany 350 Posts #20 On August 31 2013 03:21 max1c wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 31 2013 02:40 Kuroeeah wrote:

Can I get a source where "Very High" games are like the 3.5 percentile or something? I heard it before but I don't know where I heard it from.



http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/the-size-of-dotas-skill-brackets-2013-edition/



I think I saw another source that had it at something like 80.x/16.x/3.x as well which would suggest to me that it's a 5:1 ratio between each bracket. Meaning for every five normal player (or rather matches?) there is one high players and for every five high there is one very high. I think I saw another source that had it at something like 80.x/16.x/3.x as well which would suggest to me that it's a 5:1 ratio between each bracket. Meaning for every five normal player (or rather matches?) there is one high players and for every five high there is one very high. Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud

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