LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: When you think about it, science explains the most interesting things in the world - how the brain registers some foods as delicious, why dogs have better eyesight than humans, how babies learn to walk. So why then do so many of us lose interest in science after we learn the basics at school? Study after study shows that the level of scientific illiteracy in the community is quite high. A couple of years ago, the Australian Academy of Science found that, for example, more than a third of Australians don't know it takes a year for the Earth to orbit the Sun.

Somebody who's made it his life's work to educate people about science and hopefully encourage them to love it is Professor Lawrence Krauss of Arizona State University. His books about physics and the origins of the universe are some of the bestselling in the world and he's here in Australia at the moment on a lecture tour.

Professor Krauss, thank you very much for coming in.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS, THEORETICAL PHYSICIST & COSMOLOGIST: It's great to be here.

LEIGH SALES: Surveys regularly show that the level of scientific literacy in the broad community is relatively poor. Why do you think that is, given that everybody has some degree of science education at school?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: Well - and the question is: what degree? I think unfortunately, especially nowadays, we tend to divorce science from culture and we tend to think of - we talk about illiteracy, but we don't talk about scientific illiteracy enough. And I think in the present climate, to not have some basic knowledge of how the world works, especially since it's important for addressing all the challenges we face in the 21st Century, is tragic. And in my country at least, many teachers who teach science actually don't have science degrees. They're uncomfortable with it. And that lack of comfort goes on to the students. And also, I think for some people at least, they view science as a threat to their beliefs, which is sad. Sometimes it is. But to think that you would rather your children not know how the world works if you're worried about, you know, defending their beliefs is kind of tragic and sad.

LEIGH SALES: Let me play devil's advocate though. Why do I personally need to know, for example, how long it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun? Why can't I just trust you as a scientist? Why do I need to know that?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: Well, we all trust each other to some extent. We have to rely on experts to some extent, but we should learn to be sceptical. You know, it's not a matter of learning a set of facts. What science is all about is a process. It's like saying, "Well, is it important for people to know that World War II happened?" Well it's part of what makes us who we are. And so, there's basic bits of science we need to know. But the really important thing is learning how to sceptically question and rely on empirical evidence. And if - it'd be great if people did it, it'd be even better if politicians did it.

LEIGH SALES: The research shows that the best way to develop a lifelong interest in science is to get kids engaged in it before about the ages of 11 to 14 or so. What do you think's the best way to do that?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: Well, you know, it's interesting when you say that 'cause I think kids are automatically engaged in it. Kids - you work with kids of three or four or five, they're naturally scientists, they're curious about the world. So we don't have to get them engaged, we just have to make sure we don't disengage them. And I think what we have to do is have it there like everything else, not something from Column B that is just different. It's part of our culture. Science is not just there for technology. It's part of what addressing who you are in the universe and understanding your place in the cosmos. Good art, good literature, good music - all of that is for that and science is a part of it.

LEIGH SALES: You mentioned music and literature and whatnot earlier. If we were having a debate and the topic were that the arts get closer to the truth of what it is to be human than science, would you rather argue the affirmative case in favour of arts or the negative case in favour of science?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: I don't like debates in the first place. I think they're rhetorical devices. I would argue that it's all an important part of what makes being human worth being human. It reminds me of a quote from the first person who built the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in the United States, which is an esoteric thing that has particles and collides them. And some senator asked him, "Will it aid in the defence of the nation?" But he said, "No, it'll help keep the nation worth defending." Because it's part of the excitement of being alive in the 21st Century. and I wouldn't - I don't label things in a hierarchical fashion. I love the arts, I like music and I love science.

LEIGH SALES: Given how much scientific knowledge has advanced over, say, you know - well obviously all centuries, but particularly the past century or so, why has science not yet done away with belief in God?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: It's a good question. I thought when I was a youngster that it would've by now. I think in the First World it's clear that that there's a monotonic decrease in the number of people who affiliate themselves with organised religion. Where religion really has it on science is the notion that somehow, without religion, you're not a good person. We have to convince people that using rationality and empathy is a basis of morality or behaviour that's - most people don't base their morality on religion in spite what they say. If you ask people, "If you didn't believe in God, would you go out and kill your neighbour?" Most people will say, "No". And so we have to overcome centuries and millennia of religion having a monopoly on this idea of morality. And I think because of that, and the fear of death. The fact is that people would rather cling when they're afraid of something to a priori beliefs than rather open their minds about it. We have to convince people they shouldn't be afraid, you shouldn't be afraid of science. Accepting the reality of nature makes life more exciting and even more precious.

LEIGH SALES: But there are things that are fundamentally scary, say, for example, the aspect of death that means that you - firstly, it's an unknown, and secondly, that it is - you are going to be separated from people that you love.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: Of course it's scary.

LEIGH SALES: So, what's - why does it matter if some people choose to mitigate that fear by belief in ... ?

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: Oh, there's- look, if every man or woman was an island, it wouldn't matter, but people have control over other people in their lives, either teachers or government officials. So when you accept myth and superstition, at one level, if it's just affecting your internal behaviour and beliefs, well that's fine if it helps you get through the day. We all invent fictions to get us through the day. We could list a litany of them. But when it impacts on our policies and the way we behave, whether we say gays are evil, which is clearly, manifestly, empirically incorrect, when it determines policies and makes us behave irrationally, that's a problem. And inevitably it spills over from one end to the other. And I think that's the real problem. It's - one could say, "I don't care what they believe, it's what they do," but what people believe impacts on what they do. And it's not as if religion is universally bad. Of course it's responsible for many peoples doing good actions. A friend of mine and a Nobel Prize-winning physicist just said, "There are good people and there are bad people. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. When good people do bad things, it's religion."

LEIGH SALES: Annoyingly, we're out of time, but thank you so much for coming in to chat to us.

LAWRENCE KRAUSS: It's been a pleasure. Thanks.