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So how was this morning's run?

I ran an eight-miler. I'm staying up near the U.N. building with a friend and another friend came and met me there. We ran down along the East River, over the Brooklyn Bridge, and got a vegan breakfast on Bergen Street. It was a very nice run and a very nice breakfast to finish it off.



Tell me a bit about your running background. What drew you to the sport?

I started running in high school. It's helpful physically, but it also helps clear the mind. I used to travel a lot, I hitchhiked around the United States in the 1980s and running was a good way to see different cities. I'd stop into a youth hostel and go for a run and see the city.



When you say you ran in high school and college, was this on a team?

In high school and college, I ran mainly for pleasure, though I did run cross-country.



Do you remember any of your youthful PRs?

No, I never really did timing. I would just go run. I was very unstructured, unorganized as a runner. I would just go into the Hollywood Hills and run. I didn't really keep track of miles or anything like that. It was only recently, when I signed up for the Rock 'n' Roll U.S.A. Marathon in Washington, D.C. [in March 2012] that I thought, Well, a marathon. That's serious business. You gotta get a program. So I followed a program for first-time marathoners—run a certain amount each week and do a long run each weekend.



Then I went into a running store to have my running analyzed on a treadmill and was told one of my feet was subpronating, or pronating, or something like that. I'm just starting to learn about all the technical stuff of running. Getting the right shoes with more stability was a good thing to do. I've really been much more of a hillbilly runner.



The Forrest Gump school of running, eh?

Yes, that's right, and that's been the case for a long, long time. I did a half-marathon a few years ago and ran a 1:47. That was my first race, the [2009] Oak Tree Half-Marathon [Geneseo, New York].



That's not a bad time for your first time out.

Yeah, it wasn't bad. Afterward, a lot of my friends were very encouraging, saying, "That's a really good time. You're a natural," nice things like that. The one thing about the running world is it's so supportive and encouraging. That's something I really like about it.



What was your time in the Rock 'n' Roll U.S.A. Marathon?

It was 3:28:03.



Wow, that's pretty good.

Yes, that was my first full marathon. I'm 50 now, so I qualified for Boston, which was very good news. I know that qualifying for Boston is difficult, and I didn't expect to qualify in my first marathon. I was happily surprised when a friend called to tell me I qualified. As a vegan for over 25 years, it feels great to demonstrate that eating plants instead of meat, milk, and eggs can fuel significant athletic achievements.



Will you run Boston in 2013?

I'm skipping Boston this year because I'm running with Team Farm Sanctuary in the L.A. Marathon in March. I qualified for 2014 at the Richmond Marathon [in 3:25:35], so I'll go next year. I'm also competing in my first Ironman, in Lake Placid, this July so my training will be focused on both triathlon and marathon. Hopefully, when I run Boston, I will be able to focus exclusively on that race.



When you think about the Boston Marathon, what do you imagine running it will be like—emotionally, physically? What images come to mind?

Boston has an illustrious history for marathoning and social issues. I remember the 1967 race where angry men attempted to remove Kathrine Switzer, the first female to run Boston, from the course. Over the years, many runners have completed the course for a cause they believe in. As an animal advocate and vegan, I'm running to raise awareness about and, one day, end cruelty to farm animals. I can think of no better venue for doing that than by taking part in this historic race, in this historic city. As I train, all those who came before me inspire me, and, on race day, I know the crowds of spectators will energize me.



Any race-day mishaps?

No. I've been very lucky. My marathon in D.C. was picture perfect. Just sort of beginners luck. My first mile was 8:30 and my last mile was 7:30. One of the amazing things that happened was around mile 20. I started to feel my brain working on me and my body working on me, and there was someone on the side handing out sectioned oranges. Man, I put one of those in my mouth and it was an amazing boost of energy, a very welcome shot in the arm. It was perfect.



I'm just getting my feet under me with marathoning, exploring it, enjoying it. I want to do a few more marathons: New York, Boston, Chicago, the classics. I have to be careful, but I've been very lucky so far not to have any serious injuries.



You do a lot of traveling for your work with Farm Sanctuary, how do you make sure that you get all your runs in?

That is challenging. When I'm traveling, it's going to be late night or early morning. But there are some times when I'm just not able get a run in. On my calendar, I have all the runs I'm supposed to do blocked in.



Typically, how many miles do you log a week?

Well, on this program, it's 30 or 40 miles per week. Usually it's less than that. More like 20 per week. In addition to running, I've started doing triathlons, so I try to do some swimming and biking as well. It's interesting to listen to your body and see how it changes, the different muscles needed for different activities. Sprinters and bikers have big quads, big muscles to push pedals or sprint, like a quarter horse. Whereas a marathoner is more like a thoroughbred. Listening to my body and experiencing the changes needed for different activities is very interesting to me.



On the days you don't run, do you ever feel off-kilter or have withdrawal symptoms?

Not if it's just one day. But if I'm not running for weeks, then I'll certainly start feeling something. Like I've gotta get out and get some energy burned, take some time to get some blood running through my brain and allow it to process things. Right now, I'm running five days a week, and the days I'm not running are good days for resting, and rest is pretty important. And for stretching. I need to do more stretching. As I run a lot, I notice my muscles tightening. It's all kind of new and evolving, a very enjoyable and interesting adventure. My girlfriend teaches boxing at a local gym, so I will sometimes go to her class, which is very good.



The area of Upstate New York where Farm Sanctuary is located looks gorgeous. Do you ever run on the grounds?

We have 175 acres and it's a sanctuary for animals, barns, pastures, and fencing. There aren't really trails on the grounds that are conducive to distance running; there are very nice walking areas and places to observe animals. But we're located right next door to the Sugar Hill State Forest, and when I'm up there, I will run in the forest. There are hills there and I love hills, although running downhills gets a little bit bumpy. But I grew up in the Hollywood Hills and I used to run through those hills in high school and college. It's a different terrain. You really have to push yourself in different ways. I like that variety instead of just a flat run.



Does running in that environment help inform your thinking about humankind's place in nature?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm always trying to figure that out, what is humankind's place in the environment: How should we be relating to other animals and with each other? When I'm running, sometimes I'll be mulling various ideas, just processing new approaches to different problems. But running in nature, I just love it. I'm energized by it. I'm not able to do that as much as I'd like because I'm currently living in the Washington, D.C., area and that's pretty built up. I feel we are connected to nature, part of nature. That's one of the problems in our world today, that we've become so disconnected. Running in nature helps me maintain and solidify the connection between the earth and my own body.



You mentioned that you worked through various problems or advocacy strategies you might be mulling. Can you give me any examples of a problem you were able to tackle or solve?

Running is part of my thought process, but I don't have the epiphanies like some people do. No bam, "Oh, that's how it is." I have several steps that lead ultimately to what I think is the best approach to a particular issue. But when there's been legislation that's been proposed, I will mull the language of it, and what's the best way to address particular legal issues. I'm not a lawyer, but I've worked with a lot of lawyers and I've done a lot of legislative work, so crafting language for legislation, that's the kind of thing I mull over as I run.



And how to communicate. In the animal rights movement, there are some very passionate individuals who have very strong feelings about how things should or shouldn't be done. So I will consider what others say and what I think may be the best approach that would align with what they're saying, looking for commonalities. You just think through various issues that are unresolved or need solutions or a response of some sort.



Also, lately, I've been trying to listen to books as I run. I'm listening to Democracy in America right now. When you're running for three hours at one shot, I think the brain doesn't need to be constantly trying to figure stuff out. It can benefit from trying to learn from stuff, too.



Do you run with music, as well?

I've recently been listening to audiobooks and podcasts, sometimes music. I don't have any set rules. Part of it has to do if my device is working and the clunking of the wires on my ears. I like to go light. I don't like to be encumbered by very much if I can help it.



You're a longtime vegan. What's in your runner's diet?

I make green smoothies in a high-powered blender. I put in kale, bananas, spinach, blueberries, flaxseed, and sometimes chia seed as well. I use nondairy milk, like soy or almond or hemp or coconut milk and blend that up. So that's really one of the main things that I eat when I want to get high-powered nutrition. The greens are, in my view, really the superfood. I try to eat a lot of greens. For protein, I'll eat beans. I'll eat tempeh and tofu, nuts and seeds. Sometimes for a treat, I'll get soy ice cream and put almond butter on it. Which has a lot of calories and is pretty tasty. Whole grains. I want to be eating more grains like amaranth and quinoa, which have protein and apparently are very healthy. I haven't gone in that direction as much as I'd like to. I eat some processed foods like Wheat Thins with tahini sauce. But I'm moving in the direction of eating more whole foods, less processed.



What advice do you have for runners who still feel they need their protein from meat, who aren't ready to give up steaks and bacon at this moment in time? How can they still be socially conscious and animal friendly?

We can get everything we need from plants, that's the first thing I'd say. But most Americans eat way too many animal products and their health suffers significantly as a result. For someone not willing to give up meat, if they're eating like the typical American, they should eat less meat. If they're going to eat meat, they should try and buy from places where the animals are treated less badly. Shop at places like farmer's markets, where they can have more of a connection with the farmer.



The problem with the way nonfactory farm products are being marketed is the conditions are a lot worse than people would assume. Free range, for example, requires that animals have access to the outdoors, but "access to the outdoors" isn't well defined. So what you often have is thousands of animals in a warehouse with a little door that leads out to a crummy little paddock and that's "access to the outdoors." With the awareness of the issues with factory farming and the growing opposition to it, there's a whole new market that is developed around selling animal foods that are "humane." But "humane," in my view, is not an accurate description of those products. When it comes to killing, slaughter is an inherently violent act. I don't think humane and slaughter go very well together.



Are there outfits that would fit your criteria of humane that meat-loving runners could seek out?

The way that they could have ethical meat if they really wanted it, and this is kind of gross, is to be eating road kill. But it's meat, it's an animal that's dead. It will be eaten. If not by a human, then by some other animal. But Farm Sanctuary does not have any criterion for humane animal foods. We promote vegan living, but we recognize that people make their own decisions. We're enthusiastic supporters of plant-based living, we're intentionally opposed to factory farming and industrial agricultural (operations). When it comes to other systems between those two extremes, we are less engaged because it's more grey and muddy. If somebody is making progress away from factory farming, we do not want to discourage that. We want to celebrate any change in a positive direction. So if someone is purchasing animal foods from a less-bad producer, that's better than animal foods from a more-bad producer. But we don't say it's good. We believe that killing is killing, violence is violence, and that's not something we would ever endorse.



We understand that people grow up believing that eating meat is necessary. It's a habit most people have developed. We appreciate anything people do to make more conscious food choices. In some cases, people may not be ready to go vegan, and steps away from factory farming are positive steps. Ultimately, we think the best solution is to eat a plant-based diet.



Have you ever tried Vibrams or barefoot running?

I've seen Vibrams, but have never used them. Right now, my shoes are very heavy, so I may go in that direction. I'm intrigued.



Any runs that have left a particular impression on you?

The night before last I ran along the East River, probably around midnight, and it was just surreal to be there and see the city. There were these young couples on benches, smooching, and it was just sort of sweet. Then yesterday, I ran the same route and it was a completely different situation. There were people with strollers, people with books, laptops. Same place at two different times had a very different feel. This morning I ran along the river again, and it was just nature, or being as close to nature as you can be in a place like this.



There's Griffith Park. I love running there. My parents live in the Hollywood Hills, and that's where I grew up. I'll run up to the Hollywood sign sometimes. I used to run the beach a lot when I lived in L.A.



As a runner, going into any new neighborhood always feels exotic to me, a cool way to explore unfamiliar terrain.

It's true. With my work and travel, I've run around Florida, Chicago's Lake Shore Drive, L.A., New York City, along the rivers. That's another nice thing about running is you can learn about other parts of the city you might not otherwise see. My friend who I ran with this morning was talking about places in Brooklyn where you're almost running in nature the whole time on a long run. Becoming immersed in different environments, climates, ecosystems, and weather is something I really enjoy.



Also, I think when you run by someone and there's a thumbs up or encouragement that's something that I really love. And that happens a fair bit. It's a brotherhood, a support and an appreciation for the effort we're all making. I think it's also about living well, living healthy, taking care of ourselves, getting in touch with ourselves, our bodies, our minds. It's a mind-body connection that running helps enhance.



Any dog issues on any of your runs?

Oh, yeah. I almost lost my shorts once. It was in Griffith Park in Los Angeles. A dog ran after me and nipped at my rear end, but the shorts, thankfully, stayed on. It was kind of close.



Do you have any pet peeves when it comes to other runners?

Peeves? No, not really. No issues.



Who are some of your running heroes?

Scott Jurek would be a running hero. He's such a model for vegan athletes, and he's performing at a very high level. Another guy I met not too long ago, whom I was very impressed by, was Billy Mills. He ran the 10,000 meters in the Olympics in '64, a come-from-behind victory. He ran with such heart and inspiration. It was pretty phenomenal. He came out of nowhere. He was on a different planet the way he finished that race. He was flying and the other guys were just running.



I was in L.A. in 1984 during the Olympics. At the time, I was riding a motorcycle. I wanted to see the marathon, so I rode around town to get to the front of the marathon and waited until the leaders got to that spot. I was watching these guys run and their determination and will were palpable. They looked like they were 10 feet tall. Athletes, when they're at a certain level and in a certain zone, it's almost like they are superhuman.



Do you usually run solo or with others?

Usually by myself, but I do enjoy running with other people.



Short Form

I love running because... It makes me feel good.

Morning or evening runner? Variable, but usually in the evening.

When I run, I think about... All kinds of things: work things, spiritual things, relationship things.

More likely to pass or be passed? Pass.

To me, carboloading is... Not something I think a lot about.

My most essential running equipment is... Shoes.

The difference between running and advocacy is... Advocacy is more serious. For some animals, and people, it can be life and death. Running is more direct and immediate. Running can be very Zen-like, very deep and inspiring. Advocacy is usually more challenging and more complicated. Both seek to create a better world.

My running ambition is... to set and accomplish new challenges; that could be an ultramarathon at some point.

Which body part hurts the most after a run... My hip.

The perfect running weather is... Cool and overcast.

You know you've had a great run when... You feel better at the beginning of the run than at the end.

The best running advice I ever received was... Start slow.



As an activist, can you point out any instrumental legislation you've influenced or helped craft impacting factory farming?

Farm Sanctuary has had successes in dozens of states. We've been leading the charge since the first piece of state legislation was passed in 2002 to ban inhumane confinement, in Florida: We enacted a law to ban tiny crates for pregnant pigs. These devices don't allow the animals to turn around or engage in basic natural behaviors, causing them to suffer from both physical and psychological disorders. Remember, pigs are smarter than dogs. We've banned these crates in eight more states since, but unfortunately most mother pigs are still confined in these cruel cages. We are big supporters of legislation, but the real solution is personal. We can each decide to eat more plant foods, and fewer or no animal foods. People can find out more about our legislative efforts and what each of us can do to help at farmsanctuary.org.



How many farm sanctuaries have you started and where?

Farm Sanctuary operates three sanctuaries—one in New York and two in California, but we helped establish more than a dozen other farm-animal sanctuaries around the United States.

What is Farm Sanctuary's most significant accomplishment? Do you ever contemplate these achievements while you're running near the grounds and observing animals moving freely?

Our biggest accomplishment is that we've put the issue of factory farming on the map for public discussion, urged people to see farm animals as living creatures rather than as inanimate cuts of meat, and raised awareness about the benefits of eating plants instead of animals. We are beginning to see a drop in the consumption of meat and dairy products in the United States, and Farm Sanctuary has played an important role in bringing on this shift. Running is one expression of ourselves, and I often think about how fortunate I am to run, and feel energized. I also reflect on the confinement of animals in factory farms who are packed so tightly that they can't even turn around, let alone run. They are not allowed to express themselves or engage in basic natural behaviors, and they suffer both physical and psychological disorders as a result.



Do you see an emotional or spiritual connection between "free range" and the freedom you have as a runner?

A good deal of my work is focused on recognizing farm animals as intelligent, emotional individuals with the desire to express themselves. On factory farms, millions are confined so tightly that they can't move, let alone run. They are denied basic freedoms. Running is one expression of freedom, and I wish all animals had that freedom.

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