Transcript

KATHY: Tobin, here's a thing about Matt, our producer Matt, that you probably already know. He both loves and hates very strongly.

[MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: There is no grey area, it's true.

KATHY: Sometimes it can get infuriating.

TOBIN: It's true. But I also feel like the line between what he loves and hates is very blurry. So like, he hated the show, Westworld. And I knew that he hated the show, Westworld, because he would come into work in the morning and tell me about the recap podcast of Westworld that he had listened to so that he could talk more about why he hated Westworld.

[MUSIC OUT]

KATHY: For you and me, if we hated a thing we would just stop watching it.

TOBIN: Right!

KATHY: On the flip side, Matt loves just as strongly. The show Riverdale...

TOBIN: Oh my god.

KATHY: ...on the CW...

TOBIN: Oh. My. God.

KATHY: ...he started watching it, loved it immediately, no idea why. And he got our editor Jenny involved, and then he got me on board, and it just kind of feels like he was slowly surrounding you maybe?

TOBIN: Yes. I was the last holdout because I refused to engage in this nonsense of like, [NETWORK EXECUTIVE VOICE] "We're gonna take the Archie comics but we're gonna make them dark and murderous and sexy."

KATHY: What voice is that? [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: [NETWORK EXECUTIVE VOICE] I don't know, this is my network executive being like, "I'm gonna take a show and I'm gonna make it this way. Ba-da-da-da-da."

KATHY: Okay, but c'mon, his enthusiasm for the show, it's kind of infectious isn't it.

TOBIN: It was like an infection, that's a good way of putting it.

KATHY: And...

TOBIN: I watched it.

KATHY: And...

TOBIN: I loved it. [KATHY LAUGHS]

[THEME MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: [NETWORK EXECUTIVE VOICE] From WNYC Studios, this is Nancy, with your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.

[THEME MUSIC OUT]

TOBIN: Kathy.

KATHY: Tobin.

TOBIN: Today we are going to talk about a horse.

KATHY: A talking horse.

TOBIN: A talking, cartoon horse.

KATHY: Which, I'm not gonna lie, is not a thing I expected to cover in this very queer podcast.

TOBIN: But before we get to that talking horse and his cartoon friends, we need to meet our guide through all this: Jordan Crucchiola.

KATHY: And back when Jordan was growing up, she knew she wasn’t interested in guys the way other girls her age were.

[MUSIC IN]

JORDAN: Most people assumed I was gay, I knew the chatter behind my back was that Jordan likes girls or something. But because I was never pursuing anybody, I was fortunate to sort of escape the more vicious end of the rumor mill. I just kind of steered clear of people in the romantic regard.

KATHY: Today Jordan covers pop culture and entertainment at Vulture. But before that...

JORDAN: I worked at Wired for seven years as a fact-checker and a reporter and we did a whole issue when I was there devoted to sex. And there was an article that I think was called "Young, Hot, and Totally Not Into Having Sex" and it was about asexuality, the invisible sexuality. And a friend of mine was fact-checking it and he looked over his computer because we sat facing each other and he just goes, "Jordan, I think we found your sub-reddit." [KATHY & TOBIN LAUGH] And I was just like, "What are you talking about?" And then he read me the definition of pan-romantic grey asexuality and I was like "Well I'll be damned, that sounds right."

TOBIN: So why do you think it too so long to figure it out or encounter the right terminology?

JORDAN: I have always been obsessed with movies and I have always watched TV obviously, and I'm a big fan of Top 40 and pop music. And there’s nothing to put to that language, in the, you know, in the popular vernacular. There weren't words falling in front of me so that I could be like, "That sounds familiar. That feels like me." And without that big pop umbrella to guide me, I was just like, I guess I'll feel a way eventually. I figured I was just sort of on the way to something and I'd figure it out when I got there. But it was just not even around me enough to think something might of been me. It was like the absence of sexuality, it was the absence of representation.

TOBIN: And this all started to change with, of all things, this weird Netflix cartoon that debuted three years ago? [JORDAN LAUGHS] Hard to sum up, but if you had to... what is Bojack Horseman about?

[BOJACK HORSEMAN THEME MUSIC IN] Back in the 90's I was in a very famous TV show...

JORDAN: Bojack Horseman is about the very famous celebrity Bojack Horseman, voiced by Will Arnett.

[CLIP] BOJACK: Mostly I just sit around the house and complain about things. DIANE: Yeah? How’s that working out for you? BOJACK: Eh, I can’t complain. So, you know...

[BOJACK HORSEMAN THEME MUSIC OUT]

TOBIN: And Bojack, we should point out, is a horse. In this world like half the characters are people and half are animals, but it ultimately doesn’t really matter beyond, like, puns and stuff.

JORDAN: And it is a surprisingly thoughtful dramedy at times that is a meta critique on Hollywood.

KATHY: And we are focusing on Todd, who’s a human character played by Aaron Paul.

[CLIP] TODD: Why so gloomy roomy? BOJACK: First of all we're not roommates, you are my house guest. TODD: Well we don't need to put labels on things. BOJACK: You sleep on my couch and you don't pay rent. I've had tapeworms that were less parasitic.

JORDAN: And I think it's been like five years that he is still there. He is often a silly character, kind of a hapless character. Very devoted, he's very loyal, he's a good friend. He's a wonderful cartoon person. The misadventures of Todd seems like a very accurately named sub-theme of Bojack Horseman.

[CLIP] TODD: That went slightly better than the worst than it could have possibly gone, so...hooray?

KATHY: And so starting in the show’s third season, we see Todd starting to question his sexuality, trying to figure out how exactly he identifies.

JORDAN: Uh yeah. We get a look back into Todd's past, we get to see a flashback with him and his friend Emily...

KATHY: ...who’s voiced by Abbi Jacobson.

[CLIP] TODD: Are you sure it's OK to be in your parent's bedroom? EMILY: Todd, so... we've been together for a few months now. And I was thinking maybe that we ... try... sex? TODD: Uhhh... EMILY: I mean, we don't have to if you don't want to. I don't want to peer pressure you at all. TODD: No. I'm ready for sexual situations.

JORDAN: Emily is clearly into Todd and Todd is sort of missing the cues that are coming from Emily.

[CLIP] TODD: Hooray. I'm taking your virginity? EMILY: Yeah, sure, that's how I would say it. TODD: Okay!

JORDAN: You know, Emily's trying to kind of get it going with him and he's like...

[CLIP] TODD: Here I go. Here's Todd. Doing sex.

KATHY: So as you’re watching this, what are you seeing?

JORDAN: I'm getting ace vibes from this, which is pretty much what ace folks are limited to in interpreting characters that they see on TV that might be like them. It's not necessarily that Todd actively avoids that situation. It's not an available conclusion in Todd's mind. Which as an ace person, when the next steps of graduating to something evolving into sexual tension, you're like, "Oh wait, no, what? No we couldn't have been flirting in that way because why would I?" Jumping all the way at the end of season 3, you finally have Emily and Todd in sort of an honest space, in a diner together, they're eating I think like ice cream sundaes.

[DINER NOISES]

[CLIP] EMILY: Todd, can I ask you something? TODD: Of course. EMILY: What's ...your deal? I feel like you like me but you don't like me? But you like me and I don't know what that is.

JORDAN: She finally asks, "Are you gay?"

[CLIP] EMILY: Are you gay? TODD: Whoa. Why would you even -- EMILY: You can tell me if you're gay, it's fine. This isn't the 1600s or some places in the present! TODD: I'm not gay! I mean, I don't think I am, but... I don't think I'm straight either.

JORDAN: He says, ummm, I don't know what I am.

[CLIP] TODD: I don't know what I am. TODD & JORDAN: I think I might be nothing. EMILY: Oh. Well, that's OK. TODD: Yeah? EMILY: Yeah, of course.

[DINER NOISES OUT]

JORDAN: And then finally we get to season four, in which Todd finally does, in confronting Bojack for having had sex with Emily...

[CLIP] BOJACK: I had sex with the one person I've ever seen you be in love with. TODD: I guess they're not gonna put you in the best friends hall of fame.

JORDAN: Bojack apologizes and Todd says...

[CLIP] TODD: I don't know that I loved her, you know? I don't think I'm allowed to be in love. BOJACK: Don't say that. You do so much for everybody and all you ever asked for was a roof over your head and the occasional s'more in a baguette. TODD: I'm telling you, it's a million dollar idea! BOJACK: I got more of you than I ever deserved. If you never talk to me again, I just want you to know that I appreciate it. And I appreciate you. TODD: Thanks. It was shitty what you did with Emily. But, um, I think I'm...asexual.

JORDAN: I did not expect to cry when I was watching that scene.

[CLIP] TODD: It actually feels nice to finally say it out loud. I am an asexual person. I am asexual.

JORDAN: And I started crying more. I didn't realize that it would mean something to me in that way, to just see a character, even a cartoon like Todd, say to a horse-man, that "I'm an asexual and it feels very good to talk about it." I was like I'm so happy that you get to talk about it, Todd!

[CLIP] TODD: I don't know if I'm ready for us to be friends again yet. BOJACK: Oh. Okay. TODD: But we can be more than not friends. BOJACK: You know for an asexual, more than not friends is probably as good as it gets right? TODD: Yeah, I'm not really in a place yet where I want to joke about it. BOJACK: Got it, got it, totally. TODD: But it feels good to talk about it.

[BOJACK HORSEMAN THEME MUSIC IN]

JORDAN: It became a process for him, and that's exactly what it is. I feel like even if you come to sort of a lightning, thunderclap realization of it, it's still a process, figuring out where you fit once you realize there's a community for you to be a part of, how to be a part of that.

[BOJACK HORSEMAN THEME MUSIC OUT]

TOBIN: So this development, definitely big news for asexuals.

JORDAN: Yes.

TOBIN: But Bojack Horseman is still a pretty niche show. However, back at the start of this year came a new TV show with the potential to take asexuality into the mainstream. It is, of all things, an adaptation of the Archie Comics -- a show on the CW called Riverdale.

KATHY: Oh Riverdale...

[RIVERDALE THEME STARTS]

JORDAN: Oh, Riverdale. God I love you! All these pretty gingers.

TOBIN: Pretty Gingers is what they should have named the show! [KATHY LAUGHS]

JORDAN: Pretty Little Gingers.

[CLIP] JUGHEAD: And our story begins, I guess, with what the Blossom twins did this summer.

[RIVERDALE MUSIC THEME FADES OUT]

JORDAN: Riverdale is a mystery noir teen soap that builds upon the attractive legacies of shows like Pretty Little Liars, like Gossip Girl, that intrigue at this very wonderful, aesthetic, juicy level. On top of all that, oh yeah, it's based on the beloved Archie Comics that have existed for decades and is an incredibly entrenched legacy property in popular culture. Oh yeah, it's that.

KATHY: So why are asexuals excited about Riverdale, and especially the character Jughead?

JORDAN: The ace community was originally excited about the show because in the recent incarnation of the Archie comics, it was made canon that Jughead is asexual. So there was potential when the show was coming out for that to be an element of Jughead's character. He certainly did not begin Season 1 being romantically interested in anyone and did have that kind of, I think, what people would call misanthropic sensibility that I think a lot of aromantic people are generally saddled with, though it's not necessarily true. Then obviously that evolved into his relationship with Betty and now we have Bughead.

TOBIN: Whoa whoa whoa...Bughead?

KATHY: Bughead? [KATHY LAUGHS]

[RIVERDALE MUSIC FADES IN]

JUGHEAD: I love you, Betty Cooper.

JORDAN: Bughead. They are Bughead.

BETTY: Jughead Jones, I love you.

[RIVERDALE MUSIC FADES OUT]

TOBIN: Were you disappointed by this?

JORDAN: I get in the first season, you’re working for a second season. And it is an out-there show, not in that it’s taking lots of chances, but in that it’s throwing a lot of cards on the table and saying, “Well I hope this works for renewal.” And so I get it, you’ve got to work within the system to sort of make your dreams come true to that extent. But if it proved to be enduring and it proved to have a committed fandom that would clearly embrace it making more bold choices, it would be a missed opportunity. Like, man, you really earned a mouthpiece and you didn’t do this thing with it that could have uniquely belonged to you. Like you could have did a thing that was actually the piece hopefully written somewhere that says, “And then Riverdale, in the year 2018, debuted the first conversantly asexual character on network television, and it was a really important and unprecedented display.” It would be a real bummer to overlook that chance.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN]

TOBIN: Well Jordan I just want to say this was such a pleasure to talk to you.

JORDAN: Thank you!

TOBIN: Yeah!

JORDAN: I have had a such a nice time talking to you guys!

TOBIN: Well I'm sure that when our producer inevitably does his spin-off Riverdale podcast he will rebook you.

[KATHY & JORDAN LAUGH]

JORDAN: I will be here for that no matter the status of Bughead for sure. [ALL LAUGH]

[BEAT]

KATHY: Jordan Crucchiola is an associate editor at Vulture.

TOBIN: Coming up, a journey of self-discovery, complete with wizards and demons.

BEN: And I said “How can you see me? What’s going on?”

[MUSIC ENDS]

[BOOMING NOISE]

KATHY: Nancy will be back in a minute.

[MIDROLL]

[MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: How would you describe 14 year old you? BEN: Oh boy, a mess. A very, very enthusiastic mess. I wanted to be friends with everyone, I had very little impulse control, I didn’t know limits...wanted to fit in in a lot of ways. You know, I had been playing some Dungeons and Dragons, I was really into fantasy and sci-fi and adventures, and that was everything I wanted.

TOBIN: Ben Schwartz was not a cool teenager, especially compared to this other kid, Nod.

BEN: Nod was everything I wished I could be. Nod was flashy and charismatic and flirted with people without feeling guilty about it. And he had a bunch of friends. He was popular. I was almost jealous. I was jealous of Nod’s grand life. Of Nod’s confidence. The fact that Nod had magic and could go into dreams.

[MUSIC OUT]

KATHY: Okay I’m sorry, Tobin, what is going on here?

TOBIN: Okay, let me give you some more context…

[MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: Who is Nod? BEN: Ah, yes. Nod was one of the most formative characters I ever played...

TOBIN: Nod is a character...from a LARP.

KATHY: LARP.

TOBIN: You kinda know what it is?

KATHY: I’ve definitely heard of it before.

TOBIN: Okay, so for people who have never heard of it...LARP stands for Live Action Role Playing. It’s like playing pretend, but you do it as part of a game that’s played out in the real world. So everyone who participates gets assigned a character, there’s a scenario to act out, there’s a set amount of time. And LARPs can range in size and scope.

BEN: Sometimes you're playing make believe with elaborate costumes and giant foam swords out in the woods. Sometimes you’re doing it in your living room with a couple of friends getting very, very emotional and intense and crying a lot. And sometimes you’re crying in the woods with foam swords. [TOBIN LAUGHS]

TOBIN: So this Nod guy we were talking about, he's actually a character that Ben was assigned to play in a LARP way back as an awkward teenager. This was at a summer camp called Wayfinder, it’s a sleepaway camp in upstate New York, that's specifically for kids who want to LARP. They run these really elaborate LARPs with costumes and weapons. The games can last for hours, sometimes days, it’s a big deal. And Nod came from one of these LARPs.

BEN: He had the magic of dreams.

TOBIN: Meaning he could go in and out of people’s dreams. He could exist in a dream world. And in this specific game, Nod wasn’t the only one with magic. He was a student at a wizarding high school, but not like Harry Potter where they’re proper and British. Instead, all the campers were playing angsty teenagers who happened to have powers.

BEN: You know, there were knights of the tree who had magic swords and witches who could call upon the magic of nature. There were summoners who could summon from other dimensions. But I was the only oneiromancer. I could go into dreams and bring things back from the dreaming with me.

TOBIN: So, all the campers get into costume, and head out into the fields of camp to play the game, and I feel like I just want to say this: Let the LARP begin!

[WHISTLE NOISE]

[MAGICAL WHOOSHING NOISE]

[SCHOOL BELLS CHIME]

[DRAMATIC STRINGS MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: Okay so, it’s finals week at magic school. All the wizards and witches are attempting to pull off these big, impressive feats to show off their skills. And one kid, named Solomon, decides he’s going to summon an archangel.

[CHIME NOISE]

[WHOOSHING NOISE]

TOBIN: He casts the spell…

[ELECTRICITY CRACKING]

[LOW OMINOUS RUMBLE]

TOBIN: ...and it goes horribly wrong.

[EXPLOSION WITH SCREAM]

TOBIN: The summoned archangel turns out to be evil. And with him...he brings an army of demons.

[BATTLE NOISES]

TOBIN: A battle breaks out...

[DRAMATIC STRING MUSIC]

BEN: Nod wound up separated from everyone so he decided to go into the dreaming.

T: Like, he decided to hide in the dream world.

[BIRD & FOREST NOISES]

[LOW OBOE MUSIC IN]

BEN: As I was staggering around, I accidentally staggered into the army of demons. And I thought I’m fine I’m fine, none of them can see me. I’m just a dream. And I backed into someone, and I turned around, and I found myself staring up at this fallen angel with his wings burnt to stumps and he had white contacts in. And he just stared down at me.

[FIRE CRACKLING NOISES]

BEN: And I looked up at him and I said “How can you see me?” [ECHOING: HOW CAN YOU SEE ME?] BEN: And he just roared down at me... [LOUD BOOMING LOW VOICE] I’m Tyrion...Lord of the Fallen, and I see all!”

[LEAVES WHOOSHING]

BEN: But they didn't kill me. They captured me. And it turned out they were capturing students. And it turns out they were going to sacrifice us in one ritual, and so they didn’t want to kill me...yet. And so there I sat, captive of demons.

[DRAMATIC STRINGS CRESCENDO DOWN]

[ALL NOISES & MUSIC OUT]

KATHY: So...what happened to Nod?

TOBIN: Uh, what happened to Nod is that the LARP ended. [LAUGHS]

KATHY: Okay. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Yeah, I mean it’s still a game. There's still parameters, so the time allotted for the game was over. Summer’s over. Everyone go home.

KATHY: That’s so unsatisfying.

TOBIN: I know, it totally is unsatisfying. But here’s the weird thing, as everyone was leaving camp that summer, Ben had this idea. What if it wasn’t such a bad thing that Nod felt unresolved? What if Nod could stick around?

KATHY: That sounds very creepy. Like a creepy ghost.

TOBIN: [LAUGHING] Not a creepy ghost I promise. For teenage Ben, LARPing was about so much more than fantasy. It was also about trying on different identities.

BEN: The summer I was 15, I really started to experiment with...I wanted to play characters different than myself. I wanna try on different roles. I wanna try on different identities. I wanna try on different personalities. I wanna try playing a really shy character, I wanna try playing a really angry character.

TOBIN: And aside from using camp to try on different personalities, Ben also used it to work out some confusing feelings about being queer.

BEN: I had figured out that I was not a binary gender, but I did not have any terms to refer to that, I was just saying that I was an androgynous person. We start camp by asking people’s pronouns, saying what pronouns do you want people to go by? And it’s not uncommon for people to switch pronouns in the middle of a week, try on a different set of pronouns for a LARP.

TOBIN: And that’s what Ben would do, like, playing a soldier who happened to have a crush on the prince, or maybe switching the gender of a demon.

BEN: That’s a really, really huge and powerful experience, being able to declare about yourself and declare that yes, this is my character, and this is who I am. And everyone will treat you that way. Everyone responds that way.

TOBIN: So LARPing is how Ben figured out a lot of their queer identity, like pronouns for example.

BEN: I use they/them pronouns.

TOBIN: But so much of this stuff was confusing for teenage Ben, like romance. While Ben saw their friends starting to have crushes and fall in love, Ben just wasn’t having those feelings. But they thought they should.

BEN: So what I was deciding to do was that I would just pick people and go, “Yes, this person seems like a reasonable person for me to want to date. They are charming, and clever, those are good criteria. I will do the flirting.”

TOBIN: Nod on the other hand...

BEN: Nod didn’t even think about their identity. For Nod, magic was their identity. Nod didn’t really think about their queerness. And yeah, it came up a little bit in that Nod had crushes on people of all genders, but didn’t care. It was a non-issue for Nod in a way that I think I wanted it to be for me, but it wasn’t. Nod was very confident in all aspects of his life.

TOBIN: So, without telling anyone, Ben went back home, and continued to LARP as Nod. Immediately, it starts to pay off...even little ways. Like at school...

[MUSIC IN]

BEN: You know, when I was struggling with tests, Nod didn’t care about tests, and Nod was totally chill. Pretending, “Oh I’m totally going to ace this, no big deal,” would give me that little confidence boost going in. Befriending people...When I would be in a new social situation, and I didn’t know anyone, I could go a little bit into Nod. And the biggest one was flirting with people. Nod was a total flirt, and would have no problems flirting with people. And in my real life, I was terrible at it. And so I would do my thing where I was like, oh this is a good person to practice flirting with. Yeah, I’ll just put on a little bit of Nod and just be charming and charismatic and spout ridiculous lines of dialogue like I’m from a movie. Cuz that’s what Nod would do.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

TOBIN: It was totally working! Ben felt like they could set aside all their anxiety about relationships and just flirt. Ben even started a long distance relationship with a girl from camp.

BEN: Nod had a huge crush on one of the other students. And then I stuck with that out of game. I decided that I had a crush on the player of that character as well. And tried to have a very messy long distance relationship. It was like, oh, I’m finally figuring out how to do this, because everyone else does this, everyone else does the romance thing. This is how I get to do it. It helped me feel more normal.

TOBIN: But, like all great plans, this one started to fall apart.

BEN: I was talking a big game about what I was good at. I was promising people things I couldn’t follow through on. I was trying to start these giant projects and make video games that I had no idea how to do.

TOBIN: And then Ben got dumped by the other camper...

BEN: And you know, when you’re a teenager, and that’s the world. And I felt like I was the saddest kid on the planet.

TOBIN: But at this point, it almost felt too late to turn back, like Nod was deeply imbedded in Ben.

[MUSIC IN]

BEN: And my dreams got very weird. And I realized that I was dreaming as Nod. I was dreaming in character.

[OMINOUS NOISES]

BEN: There was someone chasing Nod, because Nod had done something bad in the dreaming, had caused some problem in the dream realm. And there were all these people in black suits, men in black style, following him everywhere. And he was always on the run, and he was always running and always trying to get away. And it was very strange not knowing what was happening in my own dreams. I didn’t have any answers for this. And I realized I was still...I didn’t have any closure on Nod.

[NOISES END]

TOBIN: Was there any part of you that felt trapped by Nod? BEN: Definitely. And what I felt like was that I remember the language that I used at the time was that there were only masks. There was nothing behind the masks, there was no person wearing those masks. It was all, I didn’t have any concrete sense of my own identity. All I had were these masks that I put on for the public, and that really stressed me out.

TOBIN: At this point, Ben is sick of Nod and ready to leave him behind. And then...

BEN: The summer after my junior year of HS, I studied abroad in Japan for a month.

[FUN, HAPPY MUSIC IN]

TOBIN: It was a clean slate. New kids, new school, and a new idea.

BEN: I remember going in and making the conscious choice of “I am going to LARP as a confident version of myself” and thinking of it as LARPing. Because it was the exactly the same kinds of things. It was that sense where I can say whatever I wanna be and no one had to know that that wasn’t real. No one had to know that that wasn’t the real me.

[BEAT]

BEN: One of the things that we would do was go out and sing karaoke on Friday nights. I cannot sing. I am deeply tone deaf. And I did not let that stop me. And I would just belt it every Friday night at karaoke, I would go just ridiculous above and beyond. Sing everything I could find. I sang a lot of Jamiroquai, a lot of Queen. I sang a lot of Don’t Stop Me Now.

TOBIN: And for maybe the first time, it didn’t feel like Nod was behind it all.

BEN: I was really confident in Japan, I had a good time. I made friends. I didn’t worry about my previous problems. And by the end of that month, I kinda felt ready to come back and face them.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

TOBIN: Ben came back from Japan and eventually they got to play a LARP that resolved Nod’s story. He was killed by a demon, go figure. But it kinda didn’t matter anymore.

[CONTEMPLATIVE MUSIC IN]

BEN: I had learned enough from Nod, and I’d gained enough, that was just kind of me now. I didn't have to go to that anymore. I think a crutch is the right term for what Nod was in the sense that I relied on Nod too much. And then without that, I had to learn how to operate without that. It made it so that I didn’t have to ask those questions.

TOBIN: And with Nod out of the picture, Ben had the space to ask themselves those questions. Like, why was it so hard for them to flirt and have relationships? And eventually they stumbled onto this word: aromantic.

[MUSIC OUT]

BEN: Aromantic is basically people who don’t have feelings of romantic attraction towards people. I don’t feel the desire to date people, I don’t have the desire to partner myself with people.

TOBIN: Ben is still a die hard LARPer. In fact, it’s their job. They write games for people, they’ve gone back to Wayfinder. Ben says they’ve played maybe 200 characters since that summer. But no one has been quite like Nod.

BEN: I don’t feel the confidence was something I learned from Nod. Nod was more the excuse to be confident.

[MUSIC FADES IN]

TOBIN: I don’t know if you’ve ever heard RuPaul talk about drag. BEN: I have! TOBIN: So RuPaul says this thing about drag where he says that everyone is in drag all the time. Everyone is performing all the time. Do you think everyone is LARPing all the time? BEN: Absolutely. 100%. Everyone is LARPing all the time. We are all LARPing as ourselves. And given that, why not just design yourself an awesome character?

[MUSIC CRESCENDOS THEN FADES OUT]

[THEME MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: It’s credits time!

KATHY: We use all the social media: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We’re @nancypodcast in all those places.

TOBIN: Our staff producer...

KATHY: Matt Collette!

TOBIN: Sound designer...

KATHY: Jeremy Bloom!

TOBIN: Intern...

KATHY: Elisabeth Dee

TOBIN: Editor...

KATHY: Jenny Lawton!

TOBIN: Executive Producer...

KATHY: Paula Szuchman!

TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low.

KATHY: I’m Kathy Tu.

TOBIN: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.

[MUSIC ENDS]

TOBIN: I can’t get over how many of those kids have murderous parents and they just like walk into their bedroom like, “Goodnight!” it’s like motherfucker, your parents are probably gonna kill you! I would not sleep in my house!

Copyright © 2019 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information. New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.