egrimm Profile Joined September 2011 Poland 1122 Posts #2 Wow, thank You for detailed analysis, very informative. Great work sOs TY PartinG

Alluton Profile Joined February 2015 Finland 113 Posts #3 Thank you for doing this. I'll bookmark this for reddit whiners.

DSK Profile Blog Joined February 2015 England 1067 Posts #4 Very nice work once again, Sholip. I have to ask - what is the font you've used the images in the detailed analysis? **@ YT: SC2POVs at https://www.youtube.com/c/SC2POVsTV | SC2 First-person POV archive of 7,500+ VODs @**

PowerOfOne Profile Joined February 2013 Peru 78 Posts #5 Love your articles, man, it's inspiring. It's great how you can do such a clean comparison with the corresponding numbers and analysis. Got the point, GGWP.

PinoKotsBeer Profile Joined February 2014 Netherlands 1377 Posts Last Edited: 2016-06-19 19:30:16 #6 Nice work. Back in HOTS you could clearly see the difference between a good protoss player and a "bad" one. Nexus with half or full energy was very common to see (yes even high master players...). LOTV made that aspect a lot easier for those type of players.

http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer

iTzSnypah Profile Blog Joined February 2011 United States 1738 Posts #7 This conclusion is very flawed. You tested HotS Protoss vs LotV Protoss, which is useless for a few reasons, the big ones are: The HotS and LotV economies are not comparable, and that the time to build 6 probes (and the lost mining time because of having to build a pylon) at the start of the game in HotS according to your testing procedure means nothing.



A more informative way to test this would be to graph out the first few minutes of minerals mined/income for each of the 3 races in both versions of the game, using what would be considered the 'standard' opener, and compare Protoss vs Terran/Zerg in HotS and in LotV. That way you could reach a meaningful result. Team Liquid needs more Terrans.

Liquid`Zephyr Profile Blog Joined October 2006 United States 984 Posts #8 You do really awesome work. Team Liquid PoorUser

Pursuit_ Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 1319 Posts #9 TBH that's a much smaller difference between them than I expected. 115% bonus vs 122% bonus as an average across the course of the game. That means that the Protoss macro mechanic is still operating at around 94% efficiency (115/122) vs 83% efficiency (25/30) for Terran and 75% efficiency (3/4) for Zerg. Nothing conclusive can be drawn from this of course, since this is looking at the situations in a vaccuum and not taking into account all of the other countless changes that have gone int LotV, but it does seem like Chronoboost was the 'least nerfed' macro mechanic. In Somnis Veritas

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13353 Posts #10 On June 20 2016 05:19 iTzSnypah wrote:

This conclusion is very flawed. You tested HotS Protoss vs LotV Protoss, which is useless for a few reasons, the big ones are: The HotS and LotV economies are not comparable, and that the time to build 6 probes (and the lost mining time because of having to build a pylon) at the start of the game in HotS according to your testing procedure means nothing.



A more informative way to test this would be to graph out the first few minutes of minerals mined/income for each of the 3 races in both versions of the game, using what would be considered the 'standard' opener, and compare Protoss vs Terran/Zerg in HotS and in LotV. That way you could reach a meaningful result.

I agree with this but nonetheless it''s a very iinformative post.

and the question he wanted to adress was if the new chronoboost was a buff compared to the old one and not how it matches up against the other races although that would be the more interesting question imo. I agree with this but nonetheless it''s a very iinformative post.and the question he wanted to adress was if the new chronoboost was a buff compared to the old one and not how it matches up against the other races although that would be the more interesting question imo. INnoVation

[PkF] Wire Profile Joined March 2013 France 22019 Posts #11 Good and thorough analysis. As usual.

Zulu23 Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 132 Posts #12 Well, ok Now we Know chrono is nerved Compared to Hots times.

Mules and Larva mechanics were nerved as well.

The Point is that chrono has to be activated one time and then being active for ever.

That makes it less demanding to utilize compared to Terran or Zergs Macro mechanics. Mules and Injection are mechanics that are vital to be on Spot Every time. Thais why it may be considered less nerved or even buffed compared to t or z

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 2939 Posts #13 All right. According to what you say, the potential highest-level upside of the Chrono change is only present in the first 45 seconds, before the pre-change Protoss would get its first boost. All that is being mined in the first 45 seconds is minerals, and so the relevant production is nothing but Pylons, Gateways, and Nexuses. With this understood, by how much do those accelerated 45 seconds bring forward the timing for potential proxy 2gate or Nexus first builds? These are the two styles of play that stand to gain the most from early mineral gains: greed that can outpace attempts to punish it, and aggression that cannot be stopped. So, then, if the timing is highly significant, we can expect this to be a buff, as the advantage of gaining a very early and safe expansion (as Zerg does) or of simply winning the game is huge.



However, your calculations appear to be suspect. I've been reading through your full article, and there's no explanation for why the first three HotS Probes aren't all taking 17 seconds to build apiece (which is as close as you can get to the critical 45 second mark). In fact, unless I'm horribly misinformed and out of date, the appropriate build is to save Chrono until the first FOUR Probes are completed, and then Chrono as the first Pylon finishes. I highly recommend you go over this section again, avoid trying to streamline it, and actually do the practical, real-world math for analyzing how real builds make use of the relevant resources.



I'm pretty sure it is a nerf, for reference, but your article doesn't do a thing to prove it. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

kill3r_cro Profile Joined March 2013 Croatia 5 Posts Last Edited: 2016-06-19 21:29:15 #14



Your post have flaws. Beside ones mention before, here is this On June 20 2016 04:10 Sholip wrote:

The other claim is that the LotV version is stronger because in HotS, the Nexus had to build up energy before Chrono could be used, while in LotV, the game starts with the Nexus already boosted from the first moment. This seems to be a valid point at first. However, we have to consider that HotS is not directly comparable to LotV because one starts with 12 workers, the other one with 6. To make the two compatible, we can discard the first few minutes of HotS games, and start observing once the 12th Probe is finished. This way, we start at 12 workers in both cases. However, by dropping this part of the game, we dropped the very part when the regeneration in question happens. In fact, a regular (basically every) Protoss build in HotS had almost exactly 25 energy on the Nexus by the time the 12th Probe came out. This means the argument about the regeneration is no longer valid (more details below).]



Well here you are forgetting to mention that by this time, macro boosters for terran and zerg are ready, while in LOTV terran needs to build depot, then rex and only then can build orbital and zerg needs to start a new hatch and build pool to create queens. Big difference. Well here you are forgetting to mention that by this time, macro boosters for terran and zerg are ready, while in LOTV terran needs to build depot, then rex and only then can build orbital and zerg needs to start a new hatch and build pool to create queens. Big difference.

Liox Profile Joined December 2013 Germany 47 Posts #15 @Zulu23

This might be correct but it is also incorrect in a certain way.

Let's do a speculation here which I base on something I heard from a well-known streamer recently: "The pros do not perfectly use chronoboost either right now".



If you look at the way e.g. terrans, especially lower level terrans, tend to use the energy of their orbitals it has a certain pattern. Most terran players will have experienced that at a certain time they used to automatically just press the mule button as soon as it was available. This can lead to e.g. not being able to scan when you consciously want to and this will change during the later stages of a game where scans become the primary energy use (and the focus is on the army instead of the base).



Now let's look at what a protoss player has to do now: They need to switch chronoboost everytime they want but not in a certain pattern that could be automated as much but in a reactive pattern which creates a, theoretically, higher focus or mental ressources to change the chronoboost accordingly to the correct target. I think it would be very interesting to actually search pro replays and lower-level player replays for how they are using chronoboost and when they are chronoboosting empty buildings. I would bet that as much as lower level players tended to forget chronoboost and stack energy in HotS they will also tend to forget to switch chronoboost accordingly in LotV, making it much less effective because, as the OP wrote, the time cannot be gained back.



Looking at this hypothesis, the new chronoboost would be a buff for certain things which need to be maintained for a longer time (e.g. probe production or upgrades) but the usage has to be a lot more constant and refined in a reactive pattern which is harder to automate.



Just my 2 cents about this topic. "Put mind in gear before open mouth"

Zulu23 Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 132 Posts #16 At the time Scan becomes relevant to be the primary consumer of orbital energy Protoss usually has 3full satuarated bases and uses the chrono permanently on upgrades...

Elentos Profile Blog Joined February 2015 52862 Posts Last Edited: 2016-06-19 22:12:17 #17 On June 20 2016 06:27 kill3r_cro wrote:

Well here you are forgetting to mention that by this time, macro boosters for terran and zerg are ready

By the time the 12th probe is out in HotS, MULEs and injects are actually nowhere near ready with a standard build. The time difference between the chrono and the first MULE/inject in LotV is longer than in HotS, but since the production boost by chrono is less, that's actually not too big of a deal. By the time the 12th probe is out in HotS, MULEs and injects are actually nowhere near ready with a standard build. The time difference between the chrono and the first MULE/inject in LotV is longer than in HotS, but since the production boost by chrono is less, that's actually not too big of a deal. Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.

AxiomBlurr Profile Blog Joined November 2012 784 Posts #18 Great post! As usual a simple calm headed non butt hurt approach to understanding the game triumphs over whine and the emotional maturity of adults with Peter Pan/ Christ syndromes. Well played.

kill3r_cro Profile Joined March 2013 Croatia 5 Posts #19 On June 20 2016 07:02 Elentos wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 20 2016 06:27 kill3r_cro wrote:

Well here you are forgetting to mention that by this time, macro boosters for terran and zerg are ready

By the time the 12th probe is out in HotS, MULEs and injects are actually nowhere near ready with a standard build. The time difference between the chrono and the first MULE/inject in LotV is longer than in HotS, but since the production boost by chrono is less, that's actually not too big of a deal. By the time the 12th probe is out in HotS, MULEs and injects are actually nowhere near ready with a standard build. The time difference between the chrono and the first MULE/inject in LotV is longer than in HotS, but since the production boost by chrono is less, that's actually not too big of a deal.



Maybe its not ready, but its a lot longer and its big period on start that toss does have macro booster and other two races just have to start to climb tech tree to get it, and we all know that advantage on start exponentionaly rises through game. And since new PO and toss early game safety, one can expo without any concerns of early pressure and macro booster multiplies. Maybe its not ready, but its a lot longer and its big period on start that toss does have macro booster and other two races just have to start to climb tech tree to get it, and we all know that advantage on start exponentionaly rises through game. And since new PO and toss early game safety, one can expo without any concerns of early pressure and macro booster multiplies.

FalconHoof Profile Joined December 2012 Canada 164 Posts #20 Holy shit... Your detailed analysis was brilliant! A pleasure to read, you put some amazing work and thought into this. Thank you very much! Masturbation this good deserves it's own foreplay.

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