Drinking With the Boys:

An Evening with Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

By S.L. Osborne (slo@sequentialtart.com)

September 27, 1998

Warning: Contains teasers for upcoming Preacher and Hitman issues!

Picture the scene: It's a balmy, August evening in San Diego, California. The comic-con has shut down for the day, and hordes of fans and pros have scattered in search of alcohol or a place to sit. A nervous woman sits in a quiet bar, gratefully downing the tall glasses of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that keep appearing before her. A man looks on with amusement. The two make small talk. The woman calmly gets drunk while they wait for their companion to arrive.

Never keep up with an Irishman, especially if you're an American with an empty stomach.

By the time Steve Dillon arrived, I was trashed and Garth was teasing me about it. (He'd had the same amount of beer, but didn't even seem tipsy. Bastard.) We moved to a table outside so Dillon and I could smoke, and I managed to get a decent interview despite-- or because of?-- my low liquor tolerance…

Sequential Tart: Let’s start with the Internet. I warned you about this one.

Ennis: Oh, yeah, why do I hate the Internet. I don’t really hate the Internet. I mean, you've got to remember that a lot of people probably see the comments I make on the side in the Preacher letter columns. And, uh, it’s possibly understandable that they take it more seriously than the rest of [what they hear]. I’m sure the Internet is an incredibly useful tool. I’m not likely to use it any time in the immediate future because I don’t have a computer.

What do I dislike about it? I’m not keen on the way rumors fly about all over the place and the way you say there are people who don’t know how to deal with that. I think there may be probably some kind of curious legitimacy to opinions that come on the Internet. As far as I can see, your opinion is no more or less legitimate because it’s in print or because it’s on a computer screen than if you’re just voicing it publicly. It’s no more or less legitimate than a conversation two people are having in a pub, but when people tell me 'you know, they’re saying ‘x’ man said on the Internet', I’m like, 'well, I don’t really give a fuck'. I can’t tune in to the conversations that people are having in bars all over the world. You know, it would be useless to worry about canceling [the rumors]. So why I'm supposed to worry about the kind of stuff that’s coming off on the ‘Net is beyond me.

Dillon: We’ve said it’s a cross between normal conversation and writing letters. And writing letters does give stuff a certain solidity and validity that just chatting doesn’t. That’s why you've got to be careful, because what goes on there is read by a lot of people. So, it gets large very quickly on there. People who wouldn’t dare say something to your face will happily put it on the Internet. And a lot of rounds do start up. But, I think, all in all, it’s not bad. I don’t mind it.

Ennis: When I get mail sent off to me by DC, I get a stack of letters and a stack of Internet dialogues. I like to say I afford no more legitimacy for one than the other. As far as I’m concerned someone who’s put their opinion on the net has no more legitimacy than someone who’s written me a letter. So it’s not like I ignore one over the other.

Dillon: There’s certainly a lot of people who’re reading rumors on the Net who tend to take them more seriously than if they’ve just heard it in the pub, which is dangerous. Because of all the technology involved, people tend to believe in things. It’s like looking at the TV screen. People tend to take things they’ve seen on the TV and on the news programs as basically true. It’s been checked or something. And when something comes out on a new piece of technology … it comes out ‘Garth Ennis is going to do this’. You’re more likely to believe it than somebody who just told you the truth. And that can be worrying, because a lot of people keep talking out of their backsides all the time, even on the Internet.

Ennis: When I’ve finished writing for the day or whatever, I’ve got no real desire to sit around talking about comics. If I run into some friends like Johnny [McCrea] or Steve [Dillon], really sort of friends I’ve made in the industry who I regard no less than the friends I’ve made out of it, but obviously by virtue of the fact that we met through the industry, that’s one thing. But it’s just one of many conversations you have with your friends. But I have no real desire to sit around and talk about the job when I finish doing it. I’m more likely to do something else. Go and see friends, talk about something else, read a book, watch a movie, chill out. I don’t really want to spend a great deal of time sitting at a computer screen and talking to people, in depth, about what I’ve finished for the day. You know.

Dillon: (grinning) And computers give you cancer as well, though.

Ennis: True. They make you go blind.

Dillon: Especially if you’ve got porn off the pages. (laughs)

Ennis: Yep. You’ll go twice as fast then.

ST: That explains the prescription on my glasses. (grins)

Ennis: Eventually, too, they’re going to all link up and take over the world. It’ll be like in Terminator. And all you Internet people will be like, you know, standing there with them, and (knocks on the table) you’ll open up and it’ll be Arnold.

Dillon: Not far off. As the millennium bug kills them all.

Ennis: You know, when that happens, when the millennium bug hits, my typewriter’s going to be fine.

ST: Preacher is ending with what issue number?

Ennis: Sixty six. I mean, the way I work, I figured Salvation lasts to forty-eight with two Epilogues. One is Jesse taking Peyote, the other is Vietnam. Fifty-one to fifty-two is Tulip’s origin, and then fourteen issues. Two storylines, one to set up the other. Roughly seven episodes each.

ST: I was told I had to ask you this one: when are we going to get to see Cassidy have sex? (laughs)

Ennis: You know, just thinking about it, maybe you will. If it happens, it'll be in the late 50’s, early 60’s kind of time. Jesse’s going to be sort of getting a true version of Cassidy’s past, getting all the stuff that Cassidy left out.

Dillon: You saw him in bed with Tulip.

Ennis: You saw him in bed with Tulip, but it was quite a sort of cold, disturbing kind of a scene. You see his hand snake out. But honestly, I don’t think you are going to see them have sex. The next time you see him, Tulip will be putting a bullet through him.

ST: What are you doing after Preacher?

Ennis: Steve and I have a plan to do a story, which we can’t go into any great detail simply because it’s all still fairly fluid. Steve told me about it maybe seven or eight years ago, and it’s something we’ve been wanting to do for some time. Partly it’s good that we’ve done Hellblazer and Preacher in the meantime, because at the time Steve told me the story, I knew I would kind of have to be a much better writer to tackle it than I was then. So having had a bit of practice in the meantime, I should be alright for it. It’s a bit like Clint Eastwood when he got the "Unforgiven" script and thought ‘I’ll wait until I absolutely, desperately need this, and I’ll be a better actor for it’.

It’s about four friends and the four cities they come from. Very low key thing. Kitchen sink drama, you know. No pompous-y elements. Not even any action. It’s Heartland territory, actually. In fact, we used [the title] "Heartland" for the Kit solo work, which we thought would be a brilliant title for a play.

Dillon: True. But we haven’t set a title for it yet.

Ennis: We have a working title that we refer to it as, but it’s not going to be the title. We’d better come up with something better than that.

ST: So you two plan on working together awhile after Preacher’s over?

Dillon: If we don’t hate each other before then, yeah.

Ennis: I have a feeling we’ll always be doing something together. I mean, I don’t think I’ll ever do a monthly book again after Preacher and Hitman. I don’t think I’ll ever start something up intending to just go at it until I finish. I think after that it’ll be one shots, mini series, and perhaps an occasional run on something, like I’m doing on Hellblazer at the minute. But I’m not planning on packing another monthly.

Dillon: Well that could change. [You could] come up with an idea that needs to be done that way.

Ennis: Or if everything else falls apart. Then I can come crawling back on my hands and knees begging for work that all the editors have turned down over the past two to three years.

Dillon: (laughs)

Ennis: Well, Wonder Woman is a character I think I could probably do because I have a certain amount of respect, if not for the character, than for the idea behind her. I don’t think much of the Superman books at the minute, but I like the idea of Superman. He’s in Hitman soon, and I’m sure people think he's going to be vomited on or ridiculed like Green Lantern. But no, not at all, it’s a respectful piece.

ST: I'd like to talk about creator-owned projects versus work for hire. You probably prefer to do creator owned stuff, correct? How does it differ financially?

Dillon: [Creator-owned projects] give you the chance to do your own ideas. But there’s a lot of fun to be had working on characters that somebody else owns. I mean, before I die, I’d love to do a Batman. I won’t get as much money for it, unless it sells really really well. But it’s something I’d like to do.

In general, creator-owned stuff is more rewarding, I think because you can come up with characters from scratch.

Ennis: You get a bit more money on the creator-owned projects. I don’t know how it works at other companies, but at DC you get a creator royalty; plus, in my case, you have a writer royalty, and Steve an artist’s royalty.

Dillon: I get creator royalties as well on Preacher. Which is actually where a large chunk of the royalties go.

Ennis: Yes, it is. In fact, when something like Preacher: Saint of Killers comes out, Steve gets the creative royalties while Steve Pugh gets the artist’s royalty.

Dillon: My royalty works out bigger than Steve [Pugh]’s. Didn’t lift a finger for it.

ST: Do you get anything on the merchandising?

Ennis: Yes. It seems to vary between each product. The poster, the T-shirt, and things like that we did okay on. The Preacher statue –

Dillon: Surprisingly well done.

Ennis: Probably the most beautiful thing we’ve probably got, um, we did fucking great on, I’ll say. Let’s do another one.

Dillon: The reason why we thought we’d want to do more with t-shirts rather than statues is sorta … statues are a tacky idea. We’d use it for toilet bowls and stuff like that. It’s actually quite a nice piece of work. It sold a lot better than we’d thought.

Ennis: I saw a photo of it and I thought ‘Oh God’, but it wasn’t until they actually sent me one of them that I realized the photo was just a terrible photo and that it’s actually rather a nice statue.

ST: You two seem to go to a lot of conventions -- more so than a lot of the other Vertigo creators, and more than a lot of the other people I’ve seen. Is it because you enjoy them, or because they pay you, or is it something else altogether?

Ennis: The last half-dozen American conventions I’ve been to, yeah, I have been paid. DC paid my way, and it’s kind of hard not to go. But to tell you the truth-- even if DC hadn’t paid this year, I would have come out here anyway, because I have so many friendships with people that I see once a year for four days. (grins) Four days of intense drinking, but four days all the same. Matt Hollingsworth, and Doselle Young, and people like that. I would happily pay to come here.

Dillon: I paid for myself this year. It gives you a bit more freedom. If DC pays you, then you get tied to the booth for six hours a day. But I’m a bit freer. I do a couple hours a day on the booth, and then walk around as I want. But I think it’s nicest to see the people that I never see.

With the editors that we work with, it’s like they’re just voices on the phone otherwise. But, also, it's seeing some of the fans. I like to meet them-- I mean, these people are paying my wages. So I like to sign a few books and do a few sketches for them.

Ennis: It does help that we’re working on one of DC’s top sellers. The reason you don’t see a lot of other Vertigo creators, particularly the British ones, is that they’re books aren’t selling very well. DC has decided, therefore, that it’s not worth bringing them out here. Now, I would question the wisdom of that. I would say that it’s surely better to get the people out here selling books, to push them. This would’ve been a great convention for Warren Ellis because he and Darick could have plugged the hell out of Transmetropolitan.

Well, actually, Warren didn’t want to come. But that’s why you don’t see people like Jamie Delano, or Pete Milligan out here-- they’re not doing anything at the minute that sells particularly well, so DC doesn’t seem to feel the need to fly them out.

Dillon: DC’s got their own problems in terms of where to put their money. I mean, it’s not the greatest market in the world at the moment. They're short of money. Everybody’s short of money.

Also, there’s not very much for anyone to do, really.

ST: There’s a common perception that Vertigo books tend to get more critical acclaim than sales.

Dillon: They’re aiming at a different market. I mean, superhero books aim for kids from five upwards, so it doesn’t matter; whereas both our books are aimed at an older readership. And so you’re ultimately knocking off a hell of a lot of comic book numbers because most comic books are still bought by people under the age of 18. So, in proportion, they’re doing quite well with the books out as we’ve cut ourselves off from a large part of the market.

Preacher is doing fifty odd thousand per month. It’s regular, solid. But a lot of stuff is dropping; the market is dropping. There are quite a few of them that outsell books you wouldn’t think they would outsell. So, all in all, Vertigo’s not doing too badly. It seems like they get loyal followings, without the collector mentality. We get people who want to read it, and stay reading it because it’s a good book.

ST: No holographic covers.

Dillon: We don’t have to use those tricks, really. I mean, it might help some sales, but not really. We sell to people who read them, not just collect them. Some people wait for the trade paperbacks nowadays instead of buying the monthlies.

ST: I’ve noticed that Vertigo puts out a lot more trades than the regular DCU or other companies.

Dillon: They sell well in bookshops, not just comic shops. That’s the other thing. They put a lot of [trades] in normal bookshops, so we’re getting a lot of people buying them through there. They’d never walk into a comic book shop in their life, but they’d walk into a bookshop. They like to buy the comics.

I think there’s a slight Europeanization of the American market in that way. I mean, the French might serialize a lot of stuff, but what they’re aiming for is a collected album at the end of it. So you go to a French comic book place and it’s mainly collected albums or full done graphic novels. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think it’s introducing people to comic books who haven’t been into a comic book since they were ten years old. They pick it up off the bookshelf and think ‘Oh, this is different’. It’s not just people in spandex.

ST: Garth, I wanted to ask about your exclusive contract with DC. Why did you decide to do it, and are you happy with it?

Ennis: It worked out now that I’m cutting back on comics, trying to work on some screenwriting and so on. The only books I will be doing are Preacher and Hitman, and a couple of other things for DC. This year it was Hellblazer, next year it will be Sgt Rock. If that’s all I’m going to be doing anyway, why not get a lot more money for doing what I was going to be doing? So I reupped the other day; signed up until the end of next July on exactly the same principle.

There is sort of a guarantee of work. If Preacher suddenly went down the toilet, they would bring me something else to do. It might not be what I wanted, but, you know …

ST: But you wouldn’t have to worry about paying the rent.

Ennis: Yeah, exactly. Although to be honest with you, it’s not something I’m really worried about too much. I just sort of keep plugging away with Preacher and Hitman and be alright.

ST: Steve, you’ve done a couple of non-DC projects fairly recently, like the Gen13 thing. Did you enjoy doing them, and do you see yourself doing more projects like that?

Dillon: Garth’s in a position where he can do work on four different projects. So he can get variety in what he does. A monthly book, especially if you’re inking it as well as pencilling it, is almost a full time job. I’m lucky I’m quick enough to actually be able to fit in some other projects. Sometimes it’s just nice to have a change. And you don’t get much more different from Preacher than Gen13. I like to be able to pitch in and do projects like that; it’s part of the reason why I haven’t spoken about going exclusive with DC. Image pays quite well. It’s nice to do a one-off project for them, and I get quite a bit of money out of it.

The change is good. I’d sort of like to do some more. I’m happy doing Preacher, but every now and then you’ve got to do something else.

ST: Steve, you once said to me that you feel like you’ve done your job properly if you don’t hear comments about your artwork.

Dillon: On Preacher. I’m not bothered about people not noticing what I’m doing. It’s a project that is character driven, it’s dialogue driven. It doesn’t call for flashy artwork. Flashy artwork can be detrimental to it. There are certain scenes where the artwork has to make an impact, but it’s general. I mean, Garth will give me nine pages of people sitting in one place talking, and he doesn’t want people distracted from what they’re saying. I don’t mind that. So it’s not nine pages of fighting; that’s different. More information has got to be put across. But no, it’s just nine pages of people sitting in one place. Other artists might tear their hair out on things like that, but I quite enjoy it.

ST: What, no splash pages?

Dillon: Only because it’d be easier to do and a bit more money. [Garth’s] given me a couple of them. There was a big one of Monument Valley, which was quite nice to do.

ST: By the way, Garth sent me black-and-white copies of one of the "War in the Sun" issues. Your artwork looks fantastic in black and white.

Dillon: I started with black and white stuff. I come from the last generation to work on black and white 2000 AD. So you just learn a different way of going about things. They use a lot less black now than they did then, because there is color and you’ve got to leave room for it. (grins) I’m also lazy enough to let Pam [Rambo] do some of the work on the thing.

ST: It seems like Preacher has a lot of female readers. Have any thoughts on why?

Dillon: Well, a lot of Vertigo books do in general.

Ennis: I think, to be honest, a lot of women respond to Tulip. But that's the limit of analysis of the female readership that you will get out of me. Because every time I see a bloke – a male writer – start to go on about his female readership, he always comes across to me like a first class Sir John. I think I parodied it at one point in Preacher where Tulip meets up with her pal Amy, and Amy has been going out with this writer asshole. And he’s been going on about how ‘I always try to empathize with a woman’s pain’ and that sort of thing. And that was kind of my take on that sort of people, so really I’m not going to make any more attempt on that, or analyze that sort of phenomenon. All I can say is that I’m bloody glad they’re there, you know.

Dillon: I think a lot of mainstream comics don't appeal to women, because that’s the male fantasy of superheroes. But in general things like that will affect more women readers. Preacher's more character-driven than it is action-driven.

ST: I’ve been of the opinion for a while now that comic books are basically like soap operas when it comes down to it. Comics have more fantastic elements, but there’s an ongoing story with drama. Some of them are more soap opera-ish than others, but it’s still a regular serial.

Dillon: Most of us think we have more in common with the TV format than the film format. But superheroes, the best superheroes, tend to be more soap opera-ish -- like the X-Men, and the old Spiderman stuff. But, that’s for a continuing-forever sort of series. We’ve got a definite story that’s got a definite finish, so soap opera is a bit of a disjointed term. But we do have the character subplot stuff going on. That’s true.

Ennis: Hitman has quite a strong soap opera element to it. Or it will, once Tommy's relationship with Tiegel gets up and running. There's going to be a series of fights. She gets a job at the zoo. He two times her, and she'll end up trick ing him into the lion's cage stark naked, and stuff like that. But, yeah, Hitman does have an element of that -- with the boys sitting around at the bar bullshitting about what so-and-so's been up to. So I agree with you, I think you're probably right.

ST: What projects do you have coming up?

Ennis: Hitman/Lobo one shot next year drawn by Doug Mackie, featuring Section 8. And I have to smash my mind in with a hammer to get into the right mindset to write the dialogue. I think I've actually managed to do a parody of Lobo, except it's Lobo, y'know. There's a Six Pack story in the Superman 80 Page Giant. There's a Hellblazer story in the Winter special this year. There's a two part, Prestige format story drawn by Christian Allame and Ross Pete. Beyond that, I want to do Sgt Rock. And that's about it, really, apart from a very, very nasty little Weird War Tales that we're hoping to do for Axel Alonso, that Steve's actually going to draw.

ST: There's going to be another Weird War Tales?

Ennis: Yeah, a one shot. We're trying to get enough material for a trade paper back, you know, 'cause we've got four issues already, and one more 48 pager should do it. That'll make it enough.

Dillon: For me it's just Preacher at the moment, really. And that Weird War Tales when it comes up. And there are quite a lot of maybes, but I won't go into it because I don't know what's happening yet.

ST: Are there any new writers or artists that you think are doing great work, that our readers might want to keep an eye on?

Ennis: I would say Doselle Young, and especially Brian Azarello. When I read his story in Weird War Tales last year, I really thought that the guy's got such a distinct, definite voice in his stuff. You know, original? I'd say he's the most interesting new writer in the last five years.

Dillon: I haven't really had the time to have a look at what's coming up. I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of this stuff that's coming out now. But really, I don't much read many comics or keep in contact with what's going, so I really don't know that one.

ST: Do you find it odd at all to work in comics and not really have time to read them?

Dillon: Well, no, it's you've got so much workload that you work about 12 hours a day. The last thing you want to do when you finish is read comics. It's like what Garth was saying. You work and then do something completely different. When times are a bit easier, yes. It's part of the job really to keep aware of what other people are doing. But I just really haven't had the time to do anything else, anything else rather than the comic.

ST: Garth, I know you've said you still read stuff and follow books. What are you reading these days?

Ennis: In terms of books, I just read the new Stephen Hunter, which is wonderful. It's called Plan To Hunt. There's a new Joe Lansdale coming out. Cormac McCarthy's last one was as wonderful and beautiful as ever. That guy is my all-time hero, probably. I see other guys like Stephen Hunter, Joe Lansdale, Larry McMurtry. I think these guys are great, and maybe one day I'll do something as good as -- that I consider as good as -- what they've done. But McCarthy is like ... I look at him and think I'll never, never be that good. And that's a good thing because, you know, if I ever did -- God forbid -- but if I ever did something that good, it would take away from my view of him, without that same awe. That would be disappointing for me, I think. He's just a joy to read, you know.

ST: Last question. Garth: do you still want to move to the States?

Ennis: Yeah, in the long run, yeah. Definitely. Spend some more time in New York, then maybe somewhere like Boston or something... Long term plans.

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