michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Federal courts have ruled that once inside the U.S., migrant children must be housed in “safe and sanitary” conditions. So what explains the conditions at a Border Patrol station in Clint, Texas? It’s Monday, July 1. Caitlin, tell us how you first heard about this detention center in Clint, Texas.

caitlin dickerson

So a couple of weeks ago, I got a call from a source, an immigration lawyer who I work with, who told me that she and a group of her colleagues were going to a facility in Texas where hundreds of immigrant children were being housed. And she was going to interview the kids about the conditions there. So immediately, my ears perk up, because these facilities, almost no one can get in. Journalists are often turned away. Lawmakers are turned away. It’s really hard to get access and figure out what it actually looks like on the inside. So of course I say, O.K., well, let’s keep talking, and can you let me know what you find when you get there? But she said, no. She said, the interviews I’m about to do are confidential. I’m not going to be able to share with you what I see.

michael barbaro

Caitlin Dickerson covers immigration for The Times.

caitlin dickerson

Fast-forward a few days, and she and the lawyers that she traveled to Texas with were so horrified by what they found in Texas that they changed their minds. They decided to violate, intentionally, an agreement to keep the interviews they’d done confidential. They didn’t disclose the personal details of anybody they talked to, but they summarized for us what the children said.

michael barbaro

And what exactly did this lawyer see that made her feel compelled to violate this agreement and talk to you?

caitlin dickerson

So just to give you a little background, this is somebody who’s been working in immigration detention for 12 years. She regularly represents victims of torture and abuse, people who are seeking asylum. She’s seen a lot is what I’m saying. And she said this was the worst detention facility she’d ever seen in her career. She said there was a stench. Everybody being housed there was a minor. The kids that she interviewed, 60 in total among the group, they were still wearing the same clothes they had on when they’d crossed the border, and some of them had crossed the border weeks earlier. So she actually saw kids who had shirts that were stained with mucus, and with vomit, and teenage mothers who had breast milk crusted onto their shirts. She saw toddlers who hadn’t been potty-trained, but they weren’t put in diapers. So they were going to the bathroom in their pants. The children said they had no access to soap, even to wash their hands after they use the bathrooms. They were also hungry. Every single child they interviewed said they weren’t getting enough to eat. So regardless of their age — and the youngest child they talked to was five months old, the oldest was 17 — they were all getting the same three small meals a day. And so a lot of kids said they were waking up in the middle of the night with hunger pains. They were sleeping on concrete floors at night, and the lights were being left on 24/7. So they were sleep-deprived, too. The other thing they saw was children as young as 8 years old taking care of infants they didn’t know. So there are a lot of kids, a lot of babies in this facility. Some of them are there with their teenage mothers, but others were separated from adults who they crossed the border with and delivered to this facility by themselves. So one of the children they talked to described a situation where a guard came into a room with a two-year-old baby and said, who wants to take care of this baby?

michael barbaro

How did these kids end up in this facility? Why are they there?

caitlin dickerson

O.K., so ever since last fall, the administration has been dealing with record-breaking numbers of children and families crossing the border. And at the same time, they’ve also instituted policies that have made it more difficult for these children who cross the border and are then detained to be released from detention. So as a result of those two things, we’ve seen backups across the entire system of immigration detention, from temporary Border Patrol facilities where people come as soon as they cross the border, to long-term facilities, as well. And so in order to just deal with this overcrowding that was happening across their system, they dedicated the one facility in Clint to kids.

michael barbaro

I’m familiar with the surge of families crossing the border. But what explains this slower process of releasing children from these facilities, which you said contributes to this?

caitlin dickerson

So when children cross the border into the United States — people under 18 — the federal government has a legal obligation to release them, ultimately, to people it approves as sponsors and allow the children to live with those sponsors while their immigration cases are heard, while we decide whether they can stay in the United States or not. Under President Trump, the administration has added additional requirements and placed those requirements on sponsors, things like fingerprints, not just for the sponsor, but every single person who’s living in the sponsor’s home. Additional background checks, in some cases DNA tests — all these extra rules. They added these requirements, actually, as an enforcement technique. Because a lot of people who apply to sponsor new immigrants are undocumented themselves. And if they’re not undocumented, they often live in homes with other undocumented people. These requirements were added as a way to try to catch those undocumented people and put them into deportation proceedings, to ultimately kick them out of the United States. So when you add those requirements, people stop applying to sponsor children who are in custody. And when people stop applying, children get stuck there. They end up languishing.

michael barbaro

So the system is being squeezed at both ends. There is this surge of minors coming across the border, which it sounds like the administration doesn’t really have any control over. And then there’s a policy shift that it does have control over, in which they’re making it harder to release the minors in these facilities to guardians who would take them out of them.

caitlin dickerson

Exactly.

michael barbaro

So given that, how likely is it that these conditions exist in other detention facilities?

caitlin dickerson

So even though this lawyer told me Clint was the worst facility she’d ever seen, she also said that she and her colleagues visited other facilities earlier in the month, and they documented a lot of the same conditions. And we’ve also seen these conditions documented in reports by the Department of Homeland Security’s inspector General. One report, issued last month, talked about facilities where there was standing room only. And the rooms were so crowded, with toilets exposed in the rooms — they don’t have separate bathrooms — people were standing up on top of the toilets to get their heads above the crowd so that they could get some air and breathe.

michael barbaro

Caitlin, aren’t there basic standards that a facility like this one has to follow?

caitlin dickerson

There are rules that govern the detention of immigrant minors in federal custody. They come from a lawsuit that was filed back in the late 1980s, the Flores lawsuit. Lawyers filed a lawsuit on behalf of immigrants who were in detention. And this was before the days of formal immigration detention centers, so they were actually being housed in an old hotel, a two-story hotel in Pasadena that had been built in the 1950s. Immigration agents had drained the pool, and they were putting men, women and children who were unrelated to each other, regardless of their gender, in random pairings in rooms. The children weren’t getting any schooling. A lawyer who was involved in the case described it like the Wild West — very makeshift, and in some ways, similar to Clint in that way. So lawyers got wind of what was happening in this facility. They filed a lawsuit over the detention of minors. It went all the way up to the Supreme Court. It was settled, years later, in the 1990s. And that settlement, which has been relitigated a few times, really sets the standard for the way that children can be detained in federal immigration custody.

michael barbaro

And what are those conditions?

caitlin dickerson

So in general, the judge in the case ordered that facilities where children are housed have to be “safe and sanitary,” and that federal officials have to make attempts to release the kids from custody as promptly as possible. So she decided that kids can only stay in Border Patrol facilities like the one in Clint for 72 hours. After that, they have to be transferred into longer-term facilities run by the Department of Health and Human Services, which have a lot more rules attached to them, and then that agency has to try to get them out, get them with family or friends so that they’re not detained.

michael barbaro

I can’t imagine that the conditions inside this Clint facility described to you by this lawyer meet the criteria of safe and sanitary. So what happens next?

caitlin dickerson

So the lawyers who visited Clint talk not just to me, but other journalists, we write up our stories, and they immediately go viral.

archived recording Doctors and attorneys say hundreds of young people are living under inhumane conditions at a Texas border control station.

caitlin dickerson

People react very strongly to the conditions they’re hearing about.

archived recording They found about 250 babies, children and teenagers without adequate food, water and sanitation.

caitlin dickerson

Some are so moved they start to donate money — thousands of dollars — to organizations that advocate for immigrants along the border. And other people get in their cars, from New York, and California, Washington State, and they start driving to Clint with diapers and food in the backs of their cars to try to deliver supplies to these children. And right around the same time, that same week —

archived recording (william fletcher) Welcome to the Ninth Circuit. We only have one case on the calendar this afternoon, Flores v. Barr.

caitlin dickerson

Lawyers associated with this lawsuit, the Flores lawsuit, had been in federal court.

archived recording (william fletcher) And I guess it’s the government going first. archived recording (sarah fabian) Good afternoon. Sarah Fabian with the Office of Immigration Litigation from the Department of Justice.

caitlin dickerson

And they’re arguing with the government over some of these very same issues, conditions in facilities where children are being held.

archived recording (sarah fabian) First, with regard to the District Court’s finding that U.S. Customs and Border Protection was in violation of the Flores settlement agreement —

caitlin dickerson

They don’t think the government is holding up those rules for safe and sanitary conditions.

archived recording (sarah fabian) Well, I mean, I think what I would go to is that when you start enumerating, for example, specific hygiene items — and the way that was done is that the court sort of enumerated these, and say, these fall under the rubric, these fall in the category of what could be required. archived recording (william fletcher) But again, it wasn’t perfumed soap. It was soap. It wasn’t, you know, high-class milled soap, it was soap. And that sounds as though that’s part of “safe and sanitary.” Are you disagreeing with that?

caitlin dickerson

The latest battle was over whether the government should have to provide soap, toothbrushes or toothpaste to children. And a lawyer representing the Trump administration argued in court that they should not have to provide those things.

michael barbaro

And what was the rationale for arguing that the government does not need to provide something as basic as soap, toothbrush and toothpaste to children in these facilities?

archived recording (sarah fabian) Well, I think, in C.B.P. custody, it’s frequently intended to be much shorter term. So it may be that, for a shorter-term stay in C.B.P. custody, that some of those things may not be required.

caitlin dickerson

Well, the government lawyer’s argument was that these facilities are meant to be temporary, and so they don’t need all these extra amenities. She’s right, the facilities are meant to be temporary. But as we know, and as we’ve been discussing, right now, they’re not. Right now, kids are getting stuck there for weeks, up to a month.

michael barbaro

Because of this delayed process of releasing them.

caitlin dickerson

Exactly.

michael barbaro

And how did the judge react in that case, knowing what you just explained?

caitlin dickerson

So the argument’s actually being made before a three-judge panel, and all of the judges seem like they can’t really believe what the government lawyer is saying.

archived recording (william fletcher) But are you arguing, seriously, that you do not read the agreement as requiring you to do something other than what I’ve just described? Cold all night long, lights on all night long, sleep on the concrete, and you get an aluminum foil blanket. Are you saying that that’s O.K. — archived recording (marsha berzon) And too crowded to lie down, which they also said. archived recording (sarah fabian) I think — archived recording (william fletcher) I find that inconceivable, that the government would say that that is safe and sanitary.

caitlin dickerson

They’re very openly shocked, and openly disagree. One of the judges, A. Wallace Tashima, was actually imprisoned in a Japanese internment camp during World War II. And he responded —

archived recording (a. wallace tashima) It’s within everybody’s common understanding that if you don’t have a toothbrush, if you don’t have soap, if you don’t have a blanket, it’s not safe and sanitary. Wouldn’t everybody agree to that? Do you agree to that? archived recording (sarah fabian) Well, I think it’s — I think those are — there’s fair reason to find that those things may be part of safe and sanitary. archived recording (a. wallace tashima) Not maybe, are a part. Why do you say maybe? You mean there are circumstances when a person doesn’t need to have a toothbrush, toothpaste and soap, for days?

caitlin dickerson

— that’s not safe and sanitary. Wouldn’t everybody agree to that? Do you agree to that? And this exchange was recorded on video. It goes on the internet, and it ends up being watched by millions of people.

michael barbaro

So after your story is published describing these conditions in Clint, and after this Trump administration lawyer’s presentation is captured on video and people are outraged by it, what happens next?

caitlin dickerson

Within a few days, Clint is empty. Most of the kids are transferred into long-term care run by the Health and Human Services Department. A few are sent to a different overflow facility where the Border Patrol says the conditions are better, because it’s newer and it was built for families. And the head of the federal agency that is in control of Clint, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, John Sanders, resigns from his job.

michael barbaro

So this very much seems like the government acknowledging that there’s a big problem here.

caitlin dickerson

It seems that way. But then almost immediately after, Border Patrol tells us that they’ve moved more than 100 children back into Clint.

michael barbaro

Same facility.

caitlin dickerson

The same facility. An official at the agency also tells myself and other reporters, on a press call, that he, quote, “doesn’t buy” the allegations of the lawyers and the children in Clint, basically thinks that they weren’t accurately describing the conditions there. And on top of that, Border Patrol officials start to tell us that John Sanders’s resignation had nothing to do with what was happening in Clint.

michael barbaro

Caitlin, what has the president himself said about these conditions and these issues that you and these lawyers have raised?

archived recording The conditions are terrible. archived recording (donald trump) I agree. And it’s been that way for a long time. archived recording Do something. archived recording (donald trump) And President Obama built the cages. Remember when they said that I built them?

caitlin dickerson

The president’s response has pretty much been, one, it’s not my fault, and two, it’s not my problem.

archived recording (donald trump) If the Democrats would change the asylum laws and the loopholes, which they refuse to do because they think it’s good politics, everything would be solved immediately. But they refuse to do it.

caitlin dickerson

He blames the Democrats in Congress for not replacing existing immigration laws. He says it’s un-ideal, but it’s basically the result of all these other forces of human trafficking that’s bringing people into the United States, of the Democrats’ refusal to replace the existing immigration laws — kind of just throws up his hands.

archived recording (donald trump) I inherited separation from President Obama. President Obama built — they call them jail cells. They were built — archived recording Let’s talk about what’s happening now. Your administration, you’re not doing the recreation, you’re not even schooling these kids anymore. You’ve gotten rid of all that stuff. archived recording (donald trump) We’re doing a fantastic job under the circumstances. The Democrats aren’t even approving giving us money.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Caitlin, when you mentioned, in Clint, the lack of soap, or showers, or clean clothes, how exactly do we explain that? How does the government explain that?

caitlin dickerson

The government says that these facilities were not built for this population. And they’re right, the facilities were built to house an entirely different population of border crossers, largely healthy adult men who would be housed for only a couple of hours before they were going to be deported back to Mexico. So they just don’t have beds for children. They don’t have showers for children. That’s true. The problem is that, as I said, the government has been dealing with an unprecedented influx of children since October of last year. So why are children still going into the exact same facilities that they were almost a year ago now? I mean, why hasn’t the infrastructure changed?

michael barbaro

And what’s the answer?

caitlin dickerson

It’s a good question. I think part of it is limited resources, but part of it is also the way the government has chosen to use those resources. And we haven’t seen a whole lot of effort put toward expanding facilities to make room for the children and families who are coming. And I’ve had Homeland Security officials say to me, if we make room, more people are going to come. They talk about them like welcome centers. They say, if we build welcome centers, all that’s going to do is encourage more people to come. So the implication there — and let’s be clear, it’s an implication, it’s not a clearly stated position — but the implication is that they don’t want to make more space because they want to deter people from coming to the United States.

michael barbaro

So this may be a deterrent policy, these conditions we’re seeing in some of these detention centers.

caitlin dickerson

I think it’s a deterrent policy and a statistical reality that’s outside of the federal government’s control. It’s those two things, not one or the other.

michael barbaro

So whether or not it’s the intent to deter migrants, is it having that effect? Are there fewer children arriving at the border since these conditions became public?

caitlin dickerson

You know, border crossings actually have started to go down in the last few weeks. But no one I talk to, including immigration officials, attributes it to conditions in detention centers. It’s actually the result of changes that the Mexican government has made, under intense pressure from President Trump, to police more aggressively people who are trying to cross through its country into the United States. They’re blocking people from getting through.

michael barbaro

So what happens now? Will the conditions at these facilities improve, or are they likely to stay the same?

caitlin dickerson

That’s an open question. Because regardless of intentionality, all the agencies involved with what’s happening at the border have been responding to the criticism they’ve been facing by saying, we need more money. So in the last couple of weeks, Congress has set about negotiating over if and how to provide that money.

archived recording [GAVEL STRIKING BENCH] Members, please carry your conversations off the floor. Members.

caitlin dickerson

At the end of the last week, it looked like the agencies were going to get $4.5 billion to address this issue, a lot of money. But Democrats in Congress had hoped to put a lot of provisions on it.

archived recording And to be totally frank, we want to make sure there are protections built into this legislation so that funds are not misused as they have been in the past, so we don’t see any more children being abused, so we don’t see the mismanagement that we have witnessed.

caitlin dickerson

To make sure that the money was going to be used to improve conditions there. However, the Senate, which is controlled by Republicans, was able to pressure Democrats in the House because of the urgency of the situation.

archived recording (mitch mcconnell) Eight weeks ago, the administration sent Congress an urgent request for humanitarian money for the border.

caitlin dickerson

They were able to say to Democrats, it’s going to be your fault if you delay these negotiations and if children suffer for longer.

archived recording (mitch mcconnell) But during all this time, our Democratic House colleagues have been unable to produce a clean measure to provide this humanitarian funding with any chance of becoming law.

caitlin dickerson

The Senate, as the Democrats described, basically wanted a blank check.

archived recording (mitch mcconnell) We already have our compromise. The Shelby-Leahy Senate bill is the only game in town. Time to quit playing games. Time to make a law.

caitlin dickerson

And they got it. So we have to see how those funds are spent. I’m looking to see whether they go toward improving food, improving medical care, improving beds and basic amenities, or if administration officials continue to argue that these facilities are meant to be temporary, and that they shouldn’t have to make them any more comfortable than they are right now.

[music]

michael barbaro

And what’s the latest from Clint, Texas, where this all started for you?

caitlin dickerson

So our reporter, Simon Romero, got a tour of Clint last week. It’s a lot less crowded than it was weeks ago. But he observed a lot of similar conditions that were reported originally. He saw children as young as 3 years old pressing their faces up to the window to try to get attention in overcrowded cells, cells with more than 20 little girls. He saw kids outside, in over 100-degree heat. Agents who were showing him around pointed to shelves and said, look, we have soap, we have toothbrushes here. But the agents told journalists who were on this tour they were not allowed to talk to any of the children. And since we almost never get access to these facilities, and when we do, we’re not allowed to talk to the children who are in them, we just don’t know what kind of circumstances they’re living in.

michael barbaro

Caitlin, thank you very much.

caitlin dickerson

Thank you.

michael barbaro

On Friday night, a federal judge issued an emergency order demanding that health and sanitation conditions improve at Border Patrol facilities across Texas, including Clint. The judge set a deadline of July 12 for the government to report back on its progress. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (donald trump) Would you like me to step across? archived recording (translator) [SPEAKING KOREAN] archived recording (donald trump) I’d be very proud to do that. O.K., let’s do it.

michael barbaro

On Sunday, President Trump became the first sitting U.S. president to set foot in North Korea, where he shook hands with its leader, Kim Jong-un, before both men quickly returned to the South Korean side of the border.

archived recording (donald trump) I just want to say that this is my honor. I didn’t really expect it. We were in Japan for the G20. We came over and I said, hey, I’m over here, I want to call up Chairman Kim. And we got to meet. And stepping across that line was a great honor. A lot of progress has been made.

michael barbaro

Trump and Kim agreed to restart negotiations on a nuclear agreement, despite repeated setbacks in their previous talks and Kim’s unwillingness, so far, to give up his nuclear arsenal, a key demand from the Trump administration.

archived recording (kim jong-un) [SPEAKING KOREAN]

michael barbaro

In remarks after returning to South Korea, Kim praised Trump for a historic gesture of diplomacy, saying, quote, “I believe, just looking at this action, it is an expression of his willingness to eliminate all the unfortunate past and open a new future.”

archived recording (kim jong-un) [SPEAKING KOREAN] archived recording [CROWD CHANTING]

michael barbaro

Tens of thousands of demonstrators returned to streets across Sudan on Sunday in a resurgence of protests that had been broken up in a deadly government crackdown that killed dozens of people earlier in the month.

archived recording [CROWD CHANTING]

michael barbaro