DanC.Licks





Chestnut

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I wanted to see just how much mine spin, so I shot video at 50 frames per second, and superimposed the frames. That way I can count the revs, see the direction of the rotation, and also calculate the velocity of the dart. I took a white flight and colored the fins red, white, green and black, so when the dart rotates clockwise, the fins appear in that order.



At frame #4 the dart begins to rotate as the release is initiated. So I count about 4 1/2 revs clockwise at a velocity of 5.6 meters per second. That is 17 frames at 50 fps covering a distance of 195cm from the point of release to the board. I was not throwing hard at all and not adding any extra flick, which increases the spin about 1 revolution.



Any thoughts on this? Interesting subject, like all things pertaining to the mechanics of dart throwing. I know there are differing opinions on spin. I myself feel it is something that comes naturally and depends on how you grip and release your dart. I think spin makes sound ballistic sense in that it adds directional flight stability. You may be able to add or remove some, but the basic spin just happens. Some darts spin anti/counter clockwise, caused by the dart rolling off the thumb, and some spin clockwise, when they roll off the first finger. Some don't spin at all. With my darts/grip/throw, they spin (maybe rotate is a better word?) clockwise.I wanted to see just how much mine spin, so I shot video at 50 frames per second, and superimposed the frames. That way I can count the revs, see the direction of the rotation, and also calculate the velocity of the dart. I took a white flight and colored the fins red, white, green and black, so when the dart rotates clockwise, the fins appear in that order.At frame #4 the dart begins to rotate as the release is initiated. So I count about 4 1/2 revs clockwise at a velocity of 5.6 meters per second. That is 17 frames at 50 fps covering a distance of 195cm from the point of release to the board. I was not throwing hard at all and not adding any extra flick, which increases the spin about 1 revolution.Any thoughts on this? Interesting subject, like all things pertaining to the mechanics of dart throwing.





Target 9Five Generation 3s 23.g (weighted 22s) 32mm points. How can I miss with them arrows?



Target 9Five Generation 3s23.g (weighted 22s) 32mm points. How can I miss with them arrows? Find Reply Shima





Pili Nut

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Off-topic Nice SchuhSki cap didnt see that logo for nearly 15 years i guess Great explanation, i tend to spin them naturally aswell.Off-topic Nice SchuhSki cap didnt see that logo for nearly 15 years i guess Find Reply ks99dime





Chestnut

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Country: Posts: 266Threads: 14Joined: Oct 2014Reputation: 14 Country: ▲ Post: #3 ▼ Mine spin naturally also. I release with just just my thumb and middle finger, the dart rolls clockwise off my middle finger, and I use my pointer to stabilize before release. This is my natural throw and way I grip it. Really cool idea, and cool pictures to see how your dart flies. Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.

Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon

25g Harrows Aura a3

24g Target Power 8Zero

23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs

23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip

23g Target Daytona Fire 02

23g Dennis Priestley's

22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions

22g winmau snipers

21g Ks99dime Custom

21g Harrows Wolframs

21g Harrows Atomics

20g Monster Hades 2



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Darts Nut

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Country: Posts: 1,446Threads: 28Joined: Aug 2017Reputation: 163 Country: ▲ Post: #4 ▼ I used to bend the trailing edges of my flights - way way back when I was a small kid - but the plastic would never stay the same shape for long, and flight clatter was a real issue at the time

now you can get purpose made flights that will create an aerodynamically induced torque force. - Not yet felt the need to buy any!



I've always liked putting spin on the dart, like a gyroscope the long axis of the dart becomes much more stable in flight. I tend to transfer the energy by rolling my middle finger on the top of the barrel - "dragging it" in the throws release... one of those things that you just do but struggle once you try to think about it! Ryk is currently using:- 鈴木 未来 Jadeite 24g :: L-Shaft Locked Slim 300 Emerald :: Metal Champagne Ring Aqua :: - L-Flight Dimple Solid Emerald :: Winmau Blade 6 :: Find Reply theblindPew





Darts Nut

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But with normal stems and flights i counted ~4 revs too...with bare eye Its a part of my natural release.



And i have one dart that is pretty short and i hold it just with thumb and index finger, instead of my usual 4-finger-grip. This way i spin a lot more. I dont force it, it just feels natural.



I would not try to fix it or even see it as a problem .. On the other hand i wouldnt think about it as something desirable. I didnt really pay attention on spinning. I use spinning shaftsBut with normal stems and flights i counted ~4 revs too...with bare eyeIts a part of my natural release.And i have one dart that is pretty short and i hold it just with thumb and index finger, instead of my usual 4-finger-grip. This way i spin a lot more. I dont force it, it just feels natural.I would not try to fix it or even see it as a problem .. On the other hand i wouldnt think about it as something desirable. Find Reply John_B





Darts Nut

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Country: Posts: 1,114Threads: 33Joined: Aug 2016Reputation: 54 Country: ▲ Post: #6 ▼ If i have a solid realease with darts I’m comfortable with, i won’t get any spin at all. I can watch it go to the board without making even one rotation. If i get a grippy dart, they spin and I’m usually very less accurate. just depends on the individuals throw Match darts - 22g Customs Best 501 - 11 Darts Find Reply ninjaskills





Chestnut

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Reputation: Posts: 418Threads: 12Joined: Dec 2014Reputation: 57 ▲ Post: #7 ▼ I have been intrigued by this as by far the majority of right handed pro's spin counter-clockwise. so off the thumb.

some are non spinners too (MVG a prime example).



but VERY FEW right handers spin clockwise from what I see.



that made me wonder if counter clockwise, or maybe more accurately, releasing off the thumb, has any advantages over releasing off the finger.

its seems such a massive bias towards counter clockwise or no spin to be 'natural' to me. Find Reply ks99dime





Chestnut

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Country: Posts: 266Threads: 14Joined: Oct 2014Reputation: 14 Country: ▲ Post: #8 ▼ (02-06-2018, 08:58 PM) ninjaskills Wrote: I have been intrigued by this as by far the majority of right handed pro's spin counter-clockwise. so off the thumb.

some are non spinners too (MVG a prime example).



but VERY FEW right handers spin clockwise from what I see.



that made me wonder if counter clockwise, or maybe more accurately, releasing off the thumb, has any advantages over releasing off the finger.

its seems such a massive bias towards counter clockwise or no spin to be 'natural' to me.

That's interesting. I spin off my middle finger clockwise, I'm going to try off of my thumb just to see how it flies alike or different. That's interesting. I spin off my middle finger clockwise, I'm going to try off of my thumb just to see how it flies alike or different. Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.

Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon

25g Harrows Aura a3

24g Target Power 8Zero

23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs

23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip

23g Target Daytona Fire 02

23g Dennis Priestley's

22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions

22g winmau snipers

21g Ks99dime Custom

21g Harrows Wolframs

21g Harrows Atomics

20g Monster Hades 2



Find Reply joeriw96





Darts Nut

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Country: Posts: 3,321Threads: 18Joined: Feb 2016Reputation: 178 Country: ▲ Post: #9 ▼ Mine have always spun a lot, might not be very pretty to look at but they land in the same angles so I don't mind. Find Reply DanC.Licks





Chestnut

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This is my grip:



I don't really even like the term "grip" because that implies a tight hold on something. The dart really just rests in my fingers, no pressure at all. When I start the throw, my second, third and fourth fingers naturally curl into my hand as I instinctively tighten with the thumb and forefinger. You can see it in frames 4 and 5.

The dart then rolls of the side of my forefinger.



Off topic: yeah, SchuhSki cap ... my son was a racer and we collected quite a few over the years back then. It was chilly this evening and I forgot to take it off... Great replies, guys... keep them coming!This is my grip:I don't really even like the term "grip" because that implies a tight hold on something. The dart really just rests in my fingers, no pressure at all. When I start the throw, my second, third and fourth fingers naturally curl into my hand as I instinctively tighten with the thumb and forefinger. You can see it in frames 4 and 5.The dart then rolls of the side of my forefinger.Off topic: yeah, SchuhSki cap ... my son was a racer and we collected quite a few over the years back then. It was chilly this evening and I forgot to take it off...





Target 9Five Generation 3s 23.g (weighted 22s) 32mm points. How can I miss with them arrows?



Target 9Five Generation 3s23.g (weighted 22s) 32mm points. How can I miss with them arrows? Find Reply Great White North





Darts Nut

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Country: Posts: 7,280Threads: 101Joined: Apr 2013Reputation: 192 Country: ▲ Post: #11 ▼ makes my head spin.



Seriously though I've never worried about my dart spinning or not. Do know from over the years and folk telling me that my dart fly's with no real rotation. I'll just keep working on hitting the target and live with no spin. Interesting thread,Seriously though I've never worried about my dart spinning or not. Do know from over the years and folk telling me that my dart fly's with no real rotation. I'll just keep working on hitting the target and live with no spin. Find Reply Shed inn





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Country: Posts: 1,126Threads: 26Joined: Jan 2014Reputation: 51 Country: ▲ Post: #12 ▼ Ayup Dan



You're fast becoming one of my fav posters, always interesting to read your observations.

No spin on my darts at all, no matter what shape weight or length of dart I use.



Shed





https://www.giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/njoyone1 Find Reply WhiskyPops





Darts Nut

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Country: Posts: 1,076Threads: 33Joined: Feb 2016Reputation: 77 Country: ▲ Post: #13 ▼ Highly interesting posts lately mate, deserves some credit. Darts science has not yet fully been developed, even though all the equipment, methods and theory are available.



As Computational Fluid Dynamics expert I always wonder about the air flow patterns around different types of dart setups. I don't spin the darts myself (as far as I can see), but I can imagine that there is some effect on throwing arch/parabola in when you have spin due to rolling the dart off your finger.



Players like MVG seem to have a very true straight trajectory to their darts, and he has no spin. But it is hard to see a true pattern in whether pushing a dart or pulling it will make a difference.



I believe that the aftermath of the release, so whether you harshly open your fingers and release it as quickly as you can, or letting it smoothly fly off the hand, will have more effect on spin than anything else.



And by the way... I have worked with codes/programmes that contain image analysis methods, perhaps it is possible to turn this throw image into data, i.e. a numerical formula for your throwing arch (will be something like a 2nd or 3rd order parabola I guess). Then you can repeat this with different flights, shafts and barrel shapes to 'map' what happens to your dart (you can even see the steepness/slope at various positions once you get the data right). The tougest part would be to detect the darts as discrete points to plot a line through. But I may have a go at it if I can find time. Match Darts: Target Phil Taylor gen 3, 22 g

Best 501: 19 darts

180s (2017): 91/60

180s (2018): 87

180s (2019): 7



Find Reply DanC.Licks





Chestnut

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MvG's darts rotate clockwise, but slowly, maybe 2 revs. They also kick their noses up rather extremely after the release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doy6s1y58uc



Spin is not something you should think about, and if you can hit the target, who cares? It is just interesting, and who knows, maybe useful.



I have been wondering for a long time about P.T's throw. His darts spin anti clockwise, where mine spin clockwise even though my grip is somewhat similar, as are my darts. So just now, at 2 A.M., I woke up and realized how they do it, make the darts spin anti clockwise.

First, a different grip. (I used my old darts for this test)



Now, remember the red, white, green black clockwise sequence. For anti clockwise it is red, black, green white. The trick is to roll the dart off the straight thumb (my normal grip uses the tip of the thumb), pushing it with the first finger. This is what the rolling looks like (not from an actual throw)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42162009@N...ateposted/

Here is a throw



The darts wobbled quite a bit but they sort of got there. I count about 5 revs from the release point and 5 m/s velocity, slower than normal but not so slow, about the same as PT. Note the difference in my hand at the release point and at the end. Very different from the curled hand position of my normal throw. I didn't think about it. It just happened. But it is more similar to PT's throw.





I only practiced it a few throws, but I feel I could do it if I wanted to. It felt a little strange going back to my normal throw, but the darts flew straight and I hit a ton first try. I am not a scientist by any means. I just like to figure out how things work. I have played and taught Indian classical music on sitar for the last 40 some odd years, and I had to figure out all kinds of things. It is an extremely difficult instrument and I have had to give a LOT of thought to the anatomy of the hands and the movement of the hands and how to apply the mechanics to the body in order to make music. So it is natural for me to think about such things. Can't help it!MvG's darts rotate clockwise, but slowly, maybe 2 revs. They also kick their noses up rather extremely after the release.Spin is not something youthink about, and if you can hit the target, who cares? It is just interesting, and who knows, maybe useful.I have been wondering for a long time about P.T's throw. His darts spin anti clockwise, where mine spin clockwise even though my grip isas are my darts.So just now, at 2 A.M., I woke up and realized how they do it, make the darts spin anti clockwise.First, a different grip. (I used my old darts for this test)Now, remember the red, white, green black clockwise sequence. For anti clockwise it is red, black, green white. The trick is to roll the dart off the straight thumb (my normal grip uses the tip of the thumb), pushing it with the first finger. This is what the rolling looks like (not from an actual throw)Here is a throwThe darts wobbled quite a bit but they sort of got there. I count about 5 revs from the release point and 5 m/s velocity, slower than normal but not so slow, about the same as PT. Note the difference in my hand at the release point and at the end. Very different from the curled hand position of my normal throw. I didn't think about it. It just happened. But it is more similar to PT's throw.I only practiced it a few throws, but I feel I could do it if I wanted to. It felt a little strange going back to my normal throw, but the darts flew straight and I hit a ton first try.





Target 9Five Generation 3s 23.g (weighted 22s) 32mm points. How can I miss with them arrows?



Target 9Five Generation 3s23.g (weighted 22s) 32mm points. How can I miss with them arrows? Find Reply ninjaskills





Chestnut

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as I say, if spin was 'natural' why do the far majority of right handed pro's spin anti-clockwise?

its not even close to 50/50 which would imply natural.



have they chosen to do this?, or is it just that ant-clockwise is statistically more accurate or better, and that's why this proportion of pro's have risen to the top?

this form of 'natural' would imply that the better players get better, and a massive majority of them throw anti-clockwise.

coincidence?



I do not believe any current right handed player in the top 20 has a clockwise spin (PDC). that's a massive discrepancy.



but then the mighty Glen Durrant does throw clockwise. but whether he would be top 20 PDC is a different thread...... this is really good you managed to alter it.as I say, if spin was 'natural' why do the far majority of right handed pro's spin anti-clockwise?its not even close to 50/50 which would imply natural.have they chosen to do this?, or is it just that ant-clockwise is statistically more accurate or better, and that's why this proportion of pro's have risen to the top?this form of 'natural' would imply that the better players get better, and a massive majority of them throw anti-clockwise.coincidence?I do not believe any current right handed player in the top 20 has a clockwise spin (PDC). that's a massive discrepancy.but then the mighty Glen Durrant does throw clockwise. but whether he would be top 20 PDC is a different thread...... Find Reply