User Info: the_oh_in_ohio the_oh_in_ohio 10 years ago #1 Not buying COD modern warfare 2 until activision start treating their fans better. it really hard to understand who betrayed who after the battle of red mountain so is he the baddie or are the tribunal the villains?

User Info: HannibalBarca3 HannibalBarca3 10 years ago #2 Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

Look mom I'm in a sig! Dagoth Ur was a misunderstood soul. All he really wanted was to drive away the evil Imperials from Morrowind, the Tribunal was full of crazies, especiall Almexia.

User Info: Chocolatl Chocolatl 10 years ago #3 I don't think anybody's hands are clean in this one.

User Info: YmNserUame YmNserUame 10 years ago #4



Dagoth Ur meanwhile did in fact commit psuedo-biological warfare on everyone who was not a Dunmer with the blood of House Dagoth, this could be considered evil, yet he did it for revenge on the people who killed his kin, drove his house into the shadows and painted him as the arch-enemy of the Temple faith.



As for the non-Dunmeri folk who have died as a result of this, well, he probably saw them as people trying to usurp Morrowind from the natives and thought they had to be cast out for the good of the land, also he did in fact do quite well by the people of Dagoth blood whom recieved some level of divinity, the Tribunal did not give such things to their own loyal servants, which could somewhat be out of greed for absolute power over them, or merely that they did not have any to give at the time being as they were fighting House Dagoth.



They may have actually tossed their divine power around at an earlier time, but I don't believe any actual sources would state either way on that, so yeah.



If you ask me, the true great enemy of Morrowind is Azura, whom bent countless folk on the Nerevarine's path before you and got them all killed through various means, and whom cursed the Dunmer as a whole for the actions of the Tribunal, and she also had you destroy Red Tower in her vanity which she required the 'false gods' dead to preserve which eventually lead to the Oblivion invasion and then after that the eruption of Red Mountain and near extinction of the Dunmer (In the new book), neither the Tribunal nor Dagoth Ur did anything half as bad, really. So does that mean Mrs Saurfang has epic cleavage? -Heineken14 The Tribunal helped the people of Morrowind for a very long time, yet Vivec literally held a giant rock over their heads later on and said "Love me or everybody gets it!" Sotha Sil may have kept true to the original intentions, we don't know, because Almalexia went mad with her lust for power and brutally murdered him after subjecting her own loyal people to torment at your hand in her name.Dagoth Ur meanwhile did in fact commit psuedo-biological warfare on everyone who was not a Dunmer with the blood of House Dagoth, this could be considered evil, yet he did it for revenge on the people who killed his kin, drove his house into the shadows and painted him as the arch-enemy of the Temple faith.As for the non-Dunmeri folk who have died as a result of this, well, he probably saw them as people trying to usurp Morrowind from the natives and thought they had to be cast out for the good of the land, also he did in fact do quite well by the people of Dagoth blood whom recieved some level of divinity, the Tribunal did not give such things to their own loyal servants, which could somewhat be out of greed for absolute power over them, or merely that they did not have any to give at the time being as they were fighting House Dagoth.They may have actually tossed their divine power around at an earlier time, but I don't believe any actual sources would state either way on that, so yeah.If you ask me, the true great enemy of Morrowind is Azura, whom bent countless folk on the Nerevarine's path before you and got them all killed through various means, and whom cursed the Dunmer as a whole for the actions of the Tribunal, and she also had you destroy Red Tower in her vanity which she required the 'false gods' dead to preserve which eventually lead to the Oblivion invasion and then after that the eruption of Red Mountain and near extinction of the Dunmer (In the new book), neither the Tribunal nor Dagoth Ur did anything half as bad, really.

User Info: the_oh_in_ohio the_oh_in_ohio (Topic Creator) 10 years ago #5 Not buying COD modern warfare 2 until activision start treating their fans better. YmNserUame thanks for really explaining it!! morrowind is so interesting and quite in-depth i never really knew what was going on.

User Info: mosc mosc 10 years ago #6



Dagoth Ur, like the tribunal, used the heart to become a god. The tribunal itself is questionable for this alone but at least they mostly used that power for constructive purposes. Dagoth Ur on the other hand was singularly motivated on power for himself.



His plan was to create an army of mindless and corrupted servants lead by a massive walking avatar of heart-powered destruction. The most telling part of his evil is that he cared not for building anything, only destroying. He wasn't trying to convince people to join, he was spewing magic in the ash that made them go crazy.



It's presented that Dagoth Ur wanted you to join him. This was never the case. He said he pondered it for a few hundred years but in the end decided he did not want to share power. You could have handed him karanac's tools on a silver platter by his feet and he wouldn't have cared. I think Dagoth Ur was corrupted in part by his contact with the heart. He did not have the tools to do anything properly (sunder and keening were protected from use and he never had wraithguard).



Even the Daedric gods in the elder scrolls are presented as far from pure good. Azura tries her best, the others are not even interested in trying. They are not all powerful, like the tribunal, but do have tangible presences in world of tamriel.



I think Dagoth Ur was a realistic villain. One not interested in evil for evil's sake. He had goals and purposes but had become so warped that he became completely blind to the reality of what he was doing.



The heart was the center of the story, not Dagoth Ur. This was not discussed much through the mandatory dialog. Those that dug deeper learned that it was the heart that was tied to the disappearance of the dwarves, the creation of the tribunal, the death of the first nerivar, etc. The heart was a fantastic bit of writing IMHO, it's disappointing that there wasn't more you could have done with it.



Example: Vivec talks about killing Dagoth Ur several times, but that he would just come back. Why? Vivec was not able to bring himself to destroy the heart, his own source of power. Dagoth Ur killing is no biggie. Vivec didn't need you to do that. What he needed you to do was destroy the heart. All of the sudden all his wishywashyness about supporting you as nerivar starts to make sense. He doesn't want the heart destroyed but slowly as you gain power in his world, he understands that the time has come and relinquishes wraithguard. One last bit of humility and a singular act that ripples through all of tamriel. Currently Playing: GW:EN, Puzzle Quest, Golden Sun: TLA, W40k:DOW, GH3, TF2, Zelda: PH, MTG:CCG, partypoker... I think that was an incredibly one sided explanation that does not fit with the lore at all.Dagoth Ur, like the tribunal, used the heart to become a god. The tribunal itself is questionable for this alone but at least they mostly used that power for constructive purposes. Dagoth Ur on the other hand was singularly motivated on power for himself.His plan was to create an army of mindless and corrupted servants lead by a massive walking avatar of heart-powered destruction. The most telling part of his evil is that he cared not for building anything, only destroying. He wasn't trying to convince people to join, he was spewing magic in the ash that made them go crazy.It's presented that Dagoth Ur wanted you to join him. This was never the case. He said he pondered it for a few hundred years but in the end decided he did not want to share power. You could have handed him karanac's tools on a silver platter by his feet and he wouldn't have cared. I think Dagoth Ur was corrupted in part by his contact with the heart. He did not have the tools to do anything properly (sunder and keening were protected from use and he never had wraithguard).Even the Daedric gods in the elder scrolls are presented as far from pure good. Azura tries her best, the others are not even interested in trying. They are not all powerful, like the tribunal, but do have tangible presences in world of tamriel.I think Dagoth Ur was a realistic villain. One not interested in evil for evil's sake. He had goals and purposes but had become so warped that he became completely blind to the reality of what he was doing.The heart was the center of the story, not Dagoth Ur. This was not discussed much through the mandatory dialog. Those that dug deeper learned that it was the heart that was tied to the disappearance of the dwarves, the creation of the tribunal, the death of the first nerivar, etc. The heart was a fantastic bit of writing IMHO, it's disappointing that there wasn't more you could have done with it.Example: Vivec talks about killing Dagoth Ur several times, but that he would just come back. Why? Vivec was not able to bring himself to destroy the heart, his own source of power. Dagoth Ur killing is no biggie. Vivec didn't need you to do that. What he needed you to do was destroy the heart. All of the sudden all his wishywashyness about supporting you as nerivar starts to make sense. He doesn't want the heart destroyed but slowly as you gain power in his world, he understands that the time has come and relinquishes wraithguard. One last bit of humility and a singular act that ripples through all of tamriel.

User Info: jonas66 jonas66 10 years ago #7 I have to second the last post, that was my read on the matter as well. But it seems I remember that Dagoth Ur Started with good intentions, being ordered to guard the heart by Nerevar. But after being close to it he started to covet its power and it drove him insane, so when Nerevar confronted him about the whole matter his views were so askew that he felt himself guiltless and believed that Nerevar had betrayed him.

User Info: SSJMTrunks SSJMTrunks 10 years ago #8



The Tribunal as stated above lived their lives helping the people of Morrowind, yes they did in the process of using their powers for good do some selfish things and possibly killed Nerevar but they did help make Morrowind a powerful nation which was able to maintain it's independence for longer than any other nation in Tamriel. I think one of the main reasons Almalexia did go a little crazy was due to the Heart.



Azura was the Dunmer's main god prior to the events at Red Mountain so when she saw her people turn to false gods(The Tribunal) even though they had good intentions she was worried about them and decided to try and win them back. She did use the Nerevarine and several other people along the way hoping they were him to try and cast down the Tribunal and many may see her as a master manipulator however she was really trying to show her people the truth.



Dagoth Ur was someone who was betrayed at Red Mountain by his "friends" and decided that the best method of getting revenge would be to like Azura cast down the false Tribunal gods, while at the same time make himself a god and then use his army of corpus stalkers, sleepers, and his giant robot(Akulkhan) to take back Morrowind from the outsiders. I think originally he did have just intentions but because of the Heart he slowly, like Almalexia acquired a distorted view or the world and changed his visions from simple revenge on the Tribunal and liberation of Morrowind into the more destructive goal of destroying/conquering all of Tamriel and non-Dunmer peoples.



Nerevar is a bit confusing and also probably a bit more complex an argument because we(the player) dictated many of his actions so this comes with a bit more bias. First of all during the battle of Red Mountain Nerevar did kill his old ally the Dwarves, then told Dagoth Ur to guard the Heart in order to make himself, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Vivec, and possibly Dagoth into gods. Then the events that occur are a little obscure because there is no real account of what took place aside from Vivec, Almalexia and Dagoth which may not be the best sources to turn to to get the facts; however in the end Nerevar ends up dead, the other 4 get powers elevate themselves to gods, the Tribunal is formed and Dagoth is stuck inside his fence to ponder and plot. When Nerevar returns and learns about all this he does believe that Dagoth is a threat to everyone regardless of what you do, and you do kill him and destroy the heart with the intent to save Tamriel. Also you do reveal the Tribunal to be false gods however you don't really harbor much of a grudge against them. However I think that is all Nerevar really wanted to do, save Tamriel and expose the Tribunal because he does still help the temple establish order in Morrowind, as in the Tribunal main quest line. So I think Nerevar was fine sharing power with the Tribunal as long as people knew the truth.



Anyway, that is my long-winded explanation of the events as I saw them as well as my insight into who was good/evil however feel free to disagree with me or pull my arguments apart.





I underestimated the power of soup

-Delia My summation would be that deep down the Tribunal, Azura, Dagoth Ur, and the Nerevarine all had good intentions with what they were doing.The Tribunal as stated above lived their lives helping the people of Morrowind, yes they did in the process of using their powers for good do some selfish things and possibly killed Nerevar but they did help make Morrowind a powerful nation which was able to maintain it's independence for longer than any other nation in Tamriel. I think one of the main reasons Almalexia did go a little crazy was due to the Heart.Azura was the Dunmer's main god prior to the events at Red Mountain so when she saw her people turn to false gods(The Tribunal) even though they had good intentions she was worried about them and decided to try and win them back. She did use the Nerevarine and several other people along the way hoping they were him to try and cast down the Tribunal and many may see her as a master manipulator however she was really trying to show her people the truth.Dagoth Ur was someone who was betrayed at Red Mountain by his "friends" and decided that the best method of getting revenge would be to like Azura cast down the false Tribunal gods, while at the same time make himself a god and then use his army of corpus stalkers, sleepers, and his giant robot(Akulkhan) to take back Morrowind from the outsiders. I think originally he did have just intentions but because of the Heart he slowly, like Almalexia acquired a distorted view or the world and changed his visions from simple revenge on the Tribunal and liberation of Morrowind into the more destructive goal of destroying/conquering all of Tamriel and non-Dunmer peoples.Nerevar is a bit confusing and also probably a bit more complex an argument because we(the player) dictated many of his actions so this comes with a bit more bias. First of all during the battle of Red Mountain Nerevar did kill his old ally the Dwarves, then told Dagoth Ur to guard the Heart in order to make himself, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Vivec, and possibly Dagoth into gods. Then the events that occur are a little obscure because there is no real account of what took place aside from Vivec, Almalexia and Dagoth which may not be the best sources to turn to to get the facts; however in the end Nerevar ends up dead, the other 4 get powers elevate themselves to gods, the Tribunal is formed and Dagoth is stuck inside his fence to ponder and plot. When Nerevar returns and learns about all this he does believe that Dagoth is a threat to everyone regardless of what you do, and you do kill him and destroy the heart with the intent to save Tamriel. Also you do reveal the Tribunal to be false gods however you don't really harbor much of a grudge against them. However I think that is all Nerevar really wanted to do, save Tamriel and expose the Tribunal because he does still help the temple establish order in Morrowind, as in the Tribunal main quest line. So I think Nerevar was fine sharing power with the Tribunal as long as people knew the truth.Anyway, that is my long-winded explanation of the events as I saw them as well as my insight into who was good/evil however feel free to disagree with me or pull my arguments apart.

User Info: Koga no Goshi Koga no Goshi 10 years ago #9

"Koga no Goshi, I agree with everything you've said, and I've read all of it. You're everything that a TES fan should be." --- Itachi62 The insanity or moral questionability of the rest of the Tribunal is ultimately immaterial; yes Dagoth Ur is evil. He twisted, corrupted and mutilated others for his own purposes, destroyed minds and bodies and sought to spread a plague that would essentially turn everyone into zombiefied followers of the Sixth House.