Nassar survivor parents are upset with one of the world's most famous authors

David Jesse | Detroit Free Press

In the middle of the swirling storm of the Larry Nassar trial, Lisa and Kaylee Lorincz bonded with a reporter from Michigan Radio, Kate Wells. So when, after the trial was done, Wells and her fellow reporter Lindsey Smith started working on a podcast about Nassar, Lisa Lorincz decided to talk to them and delivered an open, honest account of her dealing with the revelations that Nassar had sexually assaulted her daughter.

Almost a year after the podcast came out, Lorincz's interview — and that of other parents of Nassar survivors — is reopening fresh pain for her. Not because of the Michigan Radio podcast "Believed," but rather for how one of the world's most famous authors used those interviews in both an audio and print version of his latest book.

It has led to tears and frustration for Lorincz, Wells and Smith, a letter decrying how audio was used from Michigan Radio and changes being made to the audio version of Malcolm Gladwell's latest book, "Talking with Strangers."

Those who are upset with Gladwell are mad because they claim he used the quotes out of context to paint a picture that the parents enabled Nassar's sexual assault by staying silent.

Gladwell used the audio with permission of Michigan Radio, but the reporters didn't know it was being used or how it was being used. Neither did those whose voices were used.

"The past four years have been a rollercoaster of emotions, and there seems to be no end in sight," Lorincz wrote in an email to Gladwell's production team. "When I learned of Mr. Gladwell’s audiobook, I was taken by complete surprise and, unfortunately, there’s no manual for how to navigate through all of this; I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy."

Even though Gladwell didn't use the names of the parents in his book, the use of the voices left no doubt who was talking. That caused the problems, which continue two months after publication.

How it came together

As Gladwell and his team thought about how to turn his book into an audiobook, they decided they wanted to do something different than just having Gladwell or a voice actor read the book.

They wanted to turn it into a more podcast-like experience, especially because he has had huge success with his produced podcasts such as "Revisionist History."

"Why not bring some sophistication to the audiobook?" Gladwell told the Free Press. "It made no sense not to do it" like a podcast.

But to do that, many sections of the book, including the Nassar pages, needed audio. And so Gladwell turned to Michigan Radio and "Believed."

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So he reached out, sending emails in June to Michigan Radio bosses, including a June 27 note to Stephen Schram, the station's general manager.

"We would like to find a way to work with you to make this happen," Gladwell wrote. "We also believe that this excerpt would be a powerful marketing tool for 'Believed' podcast. In the chapter, I call the podcast 'brilliant' and present it as the definitive treatment of the Nassar case. We think if people hear the actual tape from the podcast, they would be far more interested in searching out the original than if I simply read the quotes in my own voice. We are also willing to make special mention of 'Believed' elsewhere in the audiobook. Most crucially, I'm going to drop a chapter of the audiobook in my 'Revisionist History' feed (1 million plus subscribers) and would happily give it a shout-out there as well. I'm a HUGE fan of that show, and think it deserves a wider audience."

Initially, Michigan Radio decided against sending the audio, but then shifted gears, deciding the project was journalism.

July 3 Gladwell emailed again.

"Our deadline for whether we can include clips from 'Believed' in my audiobook is today. If I don't hear back, we'll have to remove all mention of the show from the book, which would be a shame."

Forty-eight minutes later, Schram wrote back and gave Gladwell permission.

It's not unusual for journalists and organizations to ask Michigan Radio for audio, Vincent Duffy, the station's news director, told the Free Press. Because Michigan Radio is a public radio station, it tries to share as much as has been on the air as possible. He said he treated Gladwell's response like any other request. He didn't notify Wells or Smith he was sharing the audio. The parents who gave the interviews were not told the audio was being shared.

"I've been here 12 years. It's never been the process or protocol to notify the reporters or the sources," Duffy said.

Michigan Radio did not get any money for it, nor did it have any editorial control over how it was used, or get to listen a preview. That's common when audio is shared, Duffy said.

And then Michigan Radio leaders didn't think more about it.

The fallout

At the end of August, Wells began getting texts from friends. Gladwell had shouted out "Believed" on his podcast as he talked about his new book. That made Wells happy, but she didn't think more about it, until mid-September when one of the people she had talked to for the podcast called to let her know Gladwell had used audio from parents and it was a mess.

At first, the reporters thought Gladwell had used the audio without formal permission, but soon found it wasn't the case — that Michigan Radio had signed off without letting them know.

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After listening to it the Nassar section, Wells and Smith, who were upset, began calling the parents over the next two days to let them know not only that the audio had been used, but it was presented out of context. The pair and the parents also found factual errors in the section, including where Gladwell wrote that Nassar was well-known for treating pelvic floor dysfunction (many parents didn't know he was even doing this); that it was an open-and-shut case and that many parents defend Nassar.

"I was dumbfounded," Smith said of listening to the section. "We owe so much to these parents for agreeing to talk to us" and for being so honest about what went on. "I feel horrible."

The calls to the parents were emotional, with tears all around.

One of those calls went to Lorincz, who was incensed. She emailed Gladwell on Sept. 20.

"I'm going to be brief. Someone played your audiobook for me and I do not want my voice on it. That was shared, in trust, to NPR and Michigan Radio. They betrayed that trust and I'll deal with that. I did not give you permission nor did you talk to me to get the context of my statements. As being someone deeply engulfed in the case from start to finish I can tell you that many of your statements are wrong! Not distorted, wrong!"

Gladwell remains baffled by the criticism.

"In that chapter, I'm just trying to explain default to truth," he told the Free Press. That's a concept that says human beings tend to default to trusting others because they don't think deception could be a possibility or because there's insufficient evidence to distrust the other people. The section of the book talks about Jerry Sandusky, the pedophile Penn State football coach and then Nassar, and uses the parents quotes to further Gladwell's argument.

The author said he didn't reach out directly to the parents for two reasons: because he thought the "Believed" podcast had done such a great job and because the Nassar section was just a couple of pages in the book.

But the Michigan Radio reporters and Lorincz believe he used them out of context.

"There's a reason (the parents) are episode six" of the podcast, Wells said. The first five episodes dive deeply into who Nassar was, his position in the gymnastics world and related issues to help set up the parents' section. That section was meant to answer a common question: Why didn't the parents, many of whom who were in the room when Nassar was covertly sexually assaulting their daughters, step in?

That's a complicated answer, and Lorincz doesn't think Gladwell did a good explaining it. She is particularly upset with sentences where Gladwell writes that if Nassar were drunk or had been rude to their daughters, they would have complained right away.

Gladwell defends his work.

"I was presenting the same quotes in the same context as the 'Believed' podcast. I was supporting and explaining the role the parents played and why it would have been hard to speak out. The last thing I wanted to do was to make anyone unhappy."

But they are.

"Gladwell needs to acknowledge that we were mistaken about who Larry was," Lorincz said. "He needs to talk to the people who know what went on. He says the parents didn't do anything and supported (Nassar). What does that say about me as a parent? Call me and you'll get an answer about what went on. You have to be responsible, especially when you have that big of an audience."

Michigan Radio 'betrayed'

On Sept. 27, Michigan Radio also lodged a complaint with Gladwell, sending a letter from Schram and Duffy.

"Your production company requested the ability to use specific time-coded clips from Believed Ep 6 'The Parents' — and in our review of the audiobook it is clear that the clips you utilized do not match up with the request. The clips were also presented out of proper context and created an impression of the parents that do not match the tone of how they are presented in the podcast series.

"We are extremely disappointed in the manner and use of the audio clips, after you had such praiseworthy things to say over the phone and via email about 'Believed.' Based on our level of cooperation and your distinction as a journalist, we expected better.

"We feel betrayed by the use of the audio clips in the out of context manner in which they were presented. It was our impression that the cuts would be used in a supportive manner as the material was originally presented in our podcast."

In mid-October, Gladwell's production team reached out to Lorincz and said it would remove all the audio and just have Gladwell read the quotes in response to Lorincz asking for all of the interview to be removed. They made that change in mid-October, but after a month of downloads of the original audiobook.

"I just wish someone would have considered the impact this audiobook would have on those Mr. Gladwell chose to include; I’m not the only one struggling with this," Lorincz wrote in an email.

Discussions continue between Lorincz and Gladwell, including a conversation between Lorincz and Gladwell's lawyer on Thursday, where Gladwell's lawyer said he had a legal right to use the interview and wouldn't be deleting it.

Michigan Radio had the legal right under copyright law to share the interview, even without notifying the parents, said Jonathan Weinberg, associate dean for research and faculty development and professor of law at Wayne State University. When they did the interview, they created a "joint work" under copyright law, which either side could share. However, if Michigan Radio had been paid for those rights, then that payment would have to be split with the parents.

As for whether the parents should have been notified?

"In retrospect, this is a case of miscommunication between Michigan Radio and the people quoted," Gladwell said. "My assumption was they had been contacted."

From Michigan Radio? "In retrospect, I would have let Kate and Lindsey know," Duffy said. "We are still extremely proud of the podcast."

And from the reporters?

"I think we as a shop have learned from this," Smith said. "This trust (between reporter and source) is so important. It's the heart of the work we do. We owe so much to these parents for agreeing to talk to us and for being so open and honest. I feel horrible."

Contact David Jesse: 313-222-8851 or djesse@freepress.com. Follow him on Twitter: @reporterdavidj