In mid-February, Alec Empire of the iconic digital hardcore band Atari Teenage Riot got a call from Sony. The company was creating a commercial for their new handheld game console, the Sony Vita, and they wanted to use the song Black Flags from ATR's most recent album Is This Hyperreal? for the score.

It was a call so wrong, so profoundly ill-advised, that it could only end in epic internet lulz.

To begin with, Alec Empire has a history with Sony – he'd sued them for copyright infringement after another song was included in a Sony ad without permission, and he settled, still feeling ripped off. Part of his dissatisfaction was hearing his music in a commercial at all.

"It was this kind of situation... when you feel your whole work has been compromised. We are really and only about the political message," said Empire in an IRC chat with Wired. "So when something like this happens it is damaging to our credibility and can't really be repaired with paying some money."

But there was more: the song Sony wanted, Black Flags, was originally written about Bradley Manning and WikiLeaks. But the video was dedicated to Anonymous, who were mentioned in the song as well – the very collective that had mercilessly and repeatedly targeted in Sony in 2011.

Now Sony was back in Empire's life – and asking this time. Empire knew at once what he wanted to do.

"I was actually on the phone and had to slow down my pulse and breathe... so the excitement wouldn't be audible in my voice."

Empire knew a participant in Anonymous, and got in touch with them about his idea. "Alec comes to me asking where to donate to support anons," said the anon, picking up the story. "I remembered right around the time of the Paypal 14, and other raids on anon members, there were a team of lawyers devoted to defending anonymous members... I know a couple of the lawyers, so I asked them where the donate page was, (and) I handed the link to Alec."

The moment the ad money came in, Empire sent all of it to Freeanons.org – a legal defense and support network for people arrested for participation in the collective. He announced it on his blog immediately, declaring "I did it only for my own amusement!" – the lulz hard at work.

Many in the community of Anonymous who had already contributed material for the Black Flags video cheered this announcement, and Empire and some anons started a dialogue. Sometimes Empire would interview anons, and sometimes they would interview him.

Wired sat down for a chat with both a cross section of participants in the Anonymous collective, and the digital hardcore rockstar. The wide ranging talk touched on internet freedom, the music industry, the future of Anonymous, Sony, Germany, and even living on the edge of self-destruction, as an artist or a hacker. While this transcript here has been edited for length, topicality, and clarity, the casual style of IRC, which often omits conventions of written language in favor of conversational speed, has been preserved.

AE = Alec Empire, Anons are 1-6, quinn_ = Quinn Norton, Wired

Alec Empire on getting to know Anonymous, and his native Germany, and the rise of global surveillance

quinn_: so… anon… how do you know AE?

anon: Sometime around the end of #opBart and before #OWS got into full swing (September 2011), I got a message from this open-source ecologist, brokensidewalkfarm.

anon: He sent me a link to AE's black flag video, and said Alec wanted to dedicate the video to Anonymous

anon: so I pinged AE to talk to him and I wanted to help find as much video as I could to send him

anon: I might have yelled "Winning!" that day

quinn_: AE: about that political voice… how does anonymous work into your political ideas?

AE: First of all I like the sense of humour that Anonymous has...it reminds me of true punkrock in a way...

AE: then there is the thing about having no leaders, which I think is very healthy (a seen with the Sabu thing, it can go very wrong too but people have to constantly ask themselves what they think, why they should act or not etc...you can't hand that responsibility over to a leader , then blame him/her later)

AE: having grown up in Germany, this is very important to me. The majority of Germans elected Adolph Hitler, but then pointed the finger when the War was lost.

AE: In Germany everyone is about big government - they love it. Even the Pirate Party. I completely disagree with most Germans on this issue.

AE: (completely)

quinn_: yeah, the horror about hitler comes through a lot in your work. i've never understood why i don't see more processing on that in germany

AE: My grandfather died in a concentration camp. So I grew up being very aware of these things. The Wall was up when I was in school, I grew up with it.

quinn_: japanese culture is doing massive processing on the war. still the media is kind of all about it, but so much less of that seems to come out of german art, and i can't tell if that's because there is less of it there or i just don't see it

AE: Many Germans think that I throw dirt at the 'fatherland'...while I think it is very important to confront these topics and don't sweep anything under the carpet

quinn_: see, germany just needs a cathartic godzilla moment. :D

AE: that would be good...but they would never do films like that...:) it is brutal but necessary... So when we talk about a modern surveillance state that is being set up right now, Germany's past is important to look at

AE: I don't think we still need nation states...(it's also part of the 'Black Flags' track)

anon: surveillance and censorship state.

anon: AE, I'm with you. I think it takes a patriot to criticize your own country.

anon: otherwise, a dangerous level of nationalism will rise up and crush us all

AE: yes.

quinn_: why do you (all) think the surveillance state is rising right now?

anon: because the users are starting to fight back.

anon: arab spring, OWS, ..who knows what's next.

AE: I think those in power love the technology.... it just invites them to use to spy on people etc

anon 2: we're likely on the verge of a huge cultural change. states don't like change, and they will use new technology to keep things under control as much as they can, as long as they can

AE: However technology is just a tool

AE: just

AE: same goes for music instruments etc

AE: I think this is also why us electronic musicians can identify with hackers - coming out of the 80ties (which mostly used synths in a horrible way - apart from some rare 'cool' stuff), we all needed to find ways to bypass the rules..and early Acid House, Rave and Techno was born...(or Hip Hop)

AE: for example I did an album in 1994 called Generation Star Wars - heavy copyright violation, we had to change the album artwork...a google search shows you what I am talking about

AE: When I gave one of the last vinyl copies to ioerror /Jacob Appelbaum at the Anonymous conference in Berlin earlier this year, I think he immediately saw the similarities

quinn_: reminds me of negativland

AE: You're right Negativland (and the Residents were a huge influence on us...not necessarily in terms of sound though)

AE: back in the day our records worked like memes...there were no big marketing budgets and the internet was not used to distribute music like we do it now...so the moment in a record store where a Dj showed it to another and went "WTF???!!!" - that was what sold and spread this music

quinn_: so when you talk about tech for surveillance or music, you're saying it cuts both ways?

AE: I just wanted to make clear that I don't demonize technology at all...right now many people do that. and that is the wrong path

anon: right

quinn_: Kranzberg's 1st law: Technology is neither good nor bad; nor is it neutral.

Anons talk with Empire about Hackivism, legislation, and the problems being Anonymous

anon: activism vs Hactivism

quinn_: yes!

AE: !

AE: (I read and shut up)

quinn_: where they both fit, if they do, how the anons see them

anon: I think we're seeing hacktivism drive activism.

anon: and maybe activism driving hactivism

anon: I think they feed off of each other

anon: but 2011 was a great success in having people online organize for protests in the real world

anon: and it was good to see members of parliament in europe wearing the Anonymous Mask anon: hactivism win =0

anon 4: Activism Vs. Hacktivism.. In my opinion on the 'large scale' i think hacktivism is more effective and productive.. in activism – at least online activism, you get a lot of 'clicktivists" as was evidenced by the whole Kony debacle.. People posting all over facebook something they really knew nothing about, and paying online organizations such as invisible children, millions of dollars for a manufactured issue that wasn't really a problem.. The whole falling whistles thing.. UGH that still pisses me off.

AE: I think that many people will discover that it will feel good to actually get involved and become active. It's very depressing to just moan about how bad the world is or to keep putting on a happy face as if nothing was wrong

anon 4: but unless you're doing your activism in the real world, online activism does very little, unless its on such a huge scale its impossible to notice.

AE: a click might just be a click but for many it's the first step in forming their own opinion

AE: @anon 4 of course you're right...and I am very oldschool on this...

quinn_: AE: do you think things like anonymous will spread?

AE: I think that Anonymous should be prepared to get a lot of new supporters soon. People are naive about giving out their personal data on facebook etc...but when it gets too much, and it will, then there will be a big desire to get off the grid

anon 4: AE: God I hope your right...

AE: (To anons) when you look at Anonymous...does ego screw up the whole thing? It's almost impossible

anon 4: even in anonymous, somewhere everyone is supposed to be ego-less, you see rampant displays of it, people inherently want to be known for what they do and it seems like they have a hard time releasing that power, because if no one knows who they are, they wont be known for it. We all want to make our mark.. Some people unfortunately cant let the collective be their mark, and they try to make one themselves.

anon 4: Yes, ego screws it up a lot.

anon: there are times i want to just walk away

anon 3: ^ (Sign of agreement)

AE: yes, that is typical childish behaviour - BUT it goes away when you actually achieve something that you wanted to achieve

anon: and you definitely need someone who can act as a check and balance against growing narcissism.

anon: it's a frustration brought on by lack of movement

anon: sometimes I feel like things aren't changing fast enough

anon: no progress is being made

anon 4: I have.. taken breaks.. And thats the other thing thats kind of nice about anonymous.. There are lots of places for an anon to go, and there are places where being anonymous is still held to what its supposed to be.

anon: Other times, I feel like we're being assaulted from all fronts

anon 4: anon: we are.

anon: for my laundry list of things to care about, anyway.

anon: surveillance, censorship

anon: acta, sopa, pipa, C11, ITU, UN

anon: everyone wants a piece of the internet

anon: everyone seems oh so willing to fuck it up

anon 4: and don't forget CISPA.

anon: yea, cispa =)

anon: then things like TPP. corporate interests are desperate to hitch a ride on the legitimacy train that governments and treaties can afford them on their path to internet domination, and I want nothing more than to derail the fucker

anon: I want to see more people in power offering up "online bill of rights" type bills

anon: things that bolster privacy online

anon: things that keep the network neutral

AE: I have taken a lot of shit from fans and people because of the song and Anonymous...but of course I don't care because I knew that when I was writing it that it will piss some people off

AE: But then the topics that we speak about in our music always make some people 'uncomfortable'

anon 4: isn't that the point?

AE: I think certain things need to be addressed... and it's almost shameful that not more musicians speaking out

AE: It is always easier to go conform and not say anything

quinn_: anon 4, is that the point, between political music or anonymous? to deliberate make people uncomfortable, or to just not care if that's on the way to another goal?

anon 4: I think that both SHOULD make people uncomfortable a little.

anon 4: When people are uncomfortable they ask questions. They're more receptive to information.

AE: look at the music industry...it's biggest problem is the hierarchy of asskissers that has been put in place over the past decade and NOT 'piracy'

AE: Dazed & Confused (A magazine featuring some of the Empire/anon interviews) is not a magazine that is specialized in those topics...but they gave this attention, and to me this is a sign of people who had not much to do with this stuff earlier becoming more aware

AE: people CARE and more people start to care - I see it at our shows... out there we faced the problem that almost none of the music critics understood what we were talking about. Pitchfork thought we are 'against the internet' for example

anon 4: Hahaha. indeed.

AE: it took a few months until even our own fans understood...

anon 4: And to touch on what AE said about people joining anonymous.. There are several barriers that will turn a large number of people off, and in a hurry, unfortunately.. One is the culture itself. There is an intense paranoia in anonymous, due to the fear of law enforcement. New people are questioned quite intensely, and looked at suspiciously. You never know who's just new, and who's a fed.

anon 3: ^ true and =(

anon 4: As far as anonymous and law enforcement.. Its a very love hate relationship on both parts.. Ive helped out some of the groups that go after people who host child porn.. One of them had an FBI liaison. They relayed the message that what we did made us almost heros in their eyes. Because we did what they couldn't.

Empire and the Anons on self destruction, the music industry, and how the collective should evolve.

quinn_: AE, how do you feel about a group that's so overtly self destructive?

AE: @quinn self destruction? I consider this as an artform (that I mastered and am able to control at this point ;)

AE: okay you have never been to my shows I guess... where should I start....When I DJed at CBGB's in New York with Merzbow (legendary noise artists from Japan), I felt that the vinyl was missing that extra hiss and cut my veins to cover the records in blood, which is then picked up by the needle and of course changes the sound...

anon 3: 0.o

AE: I have been through very self destructive phases in my life....which can also be heard in my music

AE: the album 'Intelligence & Sacrifice' is a document of that for example

quinn_: so how do you figure out what works and what's too far?

quinn_: and AE, i ask this as someone teasing out that balance for myself, possibly daily

AE: I think we are all people who love to drive the car in the red.....and sometimes....well... we come off the road...

anon 4: Fine line between genius and insanity, and if your not walking that line you're taking up entirely too much space. Both can be equally self destructive.. But otherwise you're sitting at home, watching tv, being programmed to be a good little consumer, and support the current cycle of consumption. People have been programmed to be wasteful and destructive. Things like planned obsolescence do not help, but the fact that someone who owns a 52" big screen tv, that suddenly wont turn on one day, don't have the desire to even want to A) try to repair it themselves if they know how (as it's typically a 50 cent capacitor or two) or have it repaired at a shop for a fraction of a new one.. They just throw it away and buy a new one, and this behaviour is dumbfounding.

AE: That scene in fightclub describes that mentality well...when Pitt is on the floor and is getting punched and punched by that owner of the bar or whatever....and still laughs...

anon 4: yep.

anon 4: I am jack's complete lack of surprise.

AE: I am up since 24 hours now...but you know that's how we do things...

AE: I am absorbing the love

anon 4: AE: \m/ d[*.*]b \m/

quinn_: oh i thought that was regexp for a sec

quinn_: i was like "now it's a partay!"

anon 4: hahah, no, its two rockfists and someone with headphones.

quinn_: anon 4: you have to admit it's probably valid perl

quinn_: AE how do you reconcile what's over the line in anon behavior?

AE: I think I come from another area - I make music on an Atari 1040ST computer... as I said there are similarities and I share the humour a lot for example but so far there has been nothing that made me regret anything

anon 4: At least as a whole.

anon 4: There are things individual anons have done I don't agree with, like, or support, but as a collective.. Nothing i'd regret for the most part... Not anything that actually made public headlines, or made a splash of any kind anyway.

AE: okay...let's put it like this ...I met a few in person and their energy was awesome....everything that I miss in the music scene these days...

AE: The whole 'Black Flags' project made me meet many new amazing people...and that gave us the motivation to continue

AE: It's like everyone knows this secret code...it's a social intelligence thing or something... it's powerful

AE: There are people in the music industry who won't talk to me because of that association but actually I think that's good... haha

quinn_: won't talk to you because of the association with anonymous?

AE: oh yes...!!!!!

AE: Many people in the music industry see Anonymous as a threat to an old order that they need to survive (in terms of business for example)

anon 4: Exactly AE.

anon 5: we all steal music XD

quinn_: but is the threat in terms of what anonymous might do, or just what it actually is?

anon 4: Sony?

anon 4: lol

anon 4: i don't know how many times they've been hit squarely over the head by anonymous.

quinn_: AE obvs question, but was sony pissed at you?

AE: yes...

anon 4: lol, if we could have been flys on the wall during those board meetings.

AE: I got the usual "You'll never work in this town again" thing

AE: people I work with got bullied just because they also work with me and were kindly advised to distance themselves from me

AE: I think some people understand that the evil shit they do in secret might come to the surface much faster than it did in the past

anon 4: Yes.

quinn_: AE: wow, interesting about the bullying. i don't know the music industry, but given the whole cliche of badly behaved rockstars i'm surprised this is even rising up to notice

AE: there are no badly behaved rockstars anymore...not really...

AE: I see it like this....sales are so low that everyone fears about losing more sales...that's why most musicians don't speak out anymore..offending a potential fan can't be afforded

quinn_: AE ah, the blanding of everything.

AE: the music industry reacted in a very conservative way to the changes

• quinn_ kind of misses the old days when rappers shot each other

anon 4: LOL

AE: yes, those types (haha ) of people don't work in music anymore...

anon 4: for good reason

anon 4: they're dead.

quinn_: details.

AE: there is a lot of bullying of artists and young bands etc in the industry since a couple of years

AE: I wrote an article for German Rolling Stone about it

AE: It would take too long to translate it now...but I mainly care about creativity and 'production'... anything that is stopping the two is dangerous

AE: this is something I spoke to some hackers about over the past months... if Anonymous, Pirate Bay, and all the others would focus more on the 'production' side of it (instead of justifying sharing Hollywood and Major Record label stuff), then it would radically change everything!

anon 6: AE anonymous is working on music file sharing tools as we speak

anon 6: to support new artist releases

anon 4: indeed. As well as new methods of legal content distribution.

AE: yes, but it's all the distribution part of it. I mean producing a better 'product' (I am using the industry language on purpose now)

AE: All the regulations of the internet that those in power are trying to come up with, become meaningless when you produce.

anon 4: True, but there it is again, Pull... How does an artist generate pull? Exposure, how does an artist get exposure without the help of major labels? Time and dedication.

anon 6: and it is a natural progression but evolution is a slow process

AE: I come from a time when rave music (and me and AnonyOps speak a bit about it in the Dazed & Confused article) was a real threat to the established music industry...white labels played by a DJ sounded more powerful than the biggest rockband

AE: but we have seen it not really working over the past decade

AE: Otherwise Live Nation and Clear Channel would be out of business by now

quinn_: in the end, production is the real threat to the old institutions, not distribution.

quinn_: you can only supplant culture by making more culture

AE: yes

AE: I had a long conversation with Anon Broken Sidewalkfarm about this topic a few weeks ago... if Anonymous would apply the concept and start 'producing'... THAT will win a huge battle

anon 6: it would take current producers to produce under the anon ideal

AE: exactly... I would do it...

anon 4: AE: Therein lies a problem. An anon starts producing, anon gains recognition and exposure, How does anon maintain anonymity, receive credit for their productions, let alone any royalties?

AE: Isn't it time to focus on the music and leave out the ego bullshit (that is in the way) ?

anon 6: Ae ur preaching to the perverted :)

AE: you see I never cared about credits or bullshit like that...why? Because I do what I do only because I love it and want to do it. I think that's the same mindset. Or does an Anon want to get elected and be endorsed by Apple?

quinn_: ok, but there's a difference between the esteem of peers and of institutions. do they both belong on the chopping block?

anon 6: well your cannot block individualism all together

anon 6: so u will always has some form of recognition thrown towards some standouts

anon 4: AE: I said what i said about royalties, because, production as im sure you well know, can be pretty time intensive. Just because someone loves the music and thats why they're doing it, doesn't negate the fact that they still have rent, and bills to pay.. If what they're producing is good, and produced for the love of music, and people would be willing to buy it, there needs to be some way for that money to find the pocket of the producer to help support THEIR efforts in production. (in) which content distribution plays a large role.

AE: think about it.... when the creatives and hackers (same thing anyway?) would join forces to come up to actually replace the old model....we have arrived in the new decade

quinn_: AE do you see yourself as part of that?

AE: yes, but that is because in my opinion you're fighting the wrong battle because you love to share your Lady Gaga mp3s haha

anon 4: Sure, in the mean time, we have the old model with their old money lobbying for laws making us terrorists... trying to stop us at every turn, because they're afraid of EXACTLY THAT, being replaced by something else.

anon 4: The battle is about freedom of information

anon 4: be it music or otherwise

anon 6: Ae the battle for me has always been the right to share

AE: yes, I understand that

AE: okay so where do you see it going ?

anon 6: one brick at a time man

anon 6: get involved

anon 6: that is all ppl have to do

anon 4: AE: but once the unconnected dots form a link, and we all figure out, brainstorm, what we can do, what we want to do, to make things better, then we can formulate ideas and plans on how to do so.. Thats how anonymous got started in the first place.