Protip: nothing is 100% anonymous, you can throw away your anonymity is an instant

17:30 <+psi> step 1) please explain i2p

17:30 <+dg> you've gone from saying i2p sux in comparison to acting like cjdns is stupid

17:30 <@KillYourTV> so is it like onioncat/garlicat?

17:30 <+psi> step 2) please explain this other network

17:30 <+psi> step 3) compare and contrast

17:30 <+psi> you have the floor

17:30 <+dg> this should be good.

17:30 <+psi> go

17:31 * Meeh is excited to see what the answer is

17:31 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> i2p is a magical rainbow bridge to the future, over which a TCP-like socket can pass, with provisions to make sure it's super-secret, guyse.

17:31 -!- PrivacyHawk [amnesia@irc2p] has quit [Quit: leaving]

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17:31 <+psi> wrong

17:31 <+dg> correct

17:31 <+dg> no

17:31 <+dg> it's correct

17:32 <+psi> i2p i more than just tcp

17:32 < efkt> jercos: Oh. I see, you're not actually serious.

17:32 <+psi> actually read what i2p is first

17:32 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdns is a complete well-defined network stack designed around the OSI model's vision of a network from physical up, designed to carry IP, which

is

commonly used with actual TCP and UDP.

17:32 <+psi> read about the garlic routing and the tunnels etc

17:33 <+psi> you do not have a proper undestanding of i2p

17:33 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I said provisions didn't I?

17:33 <+psi> if you want i can do a full indepted explainaiont

17:33 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> If I'm describing Tor, I'm not gonna go into detail about how Onion routing works.

17:33 <+psi> fuck that vodka is getting to me

17:33 <+psi> i2p does not use anything from tor

17:33 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Go for it.

17:33 <+psi> ok

17:34 <+psi> i2p is a message oriented anoynmous mixnet on the lowest layer

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17:34 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> mixnet?

17:34 <+psi> the main idea is that even when inside the network you cannot tell where messages are originally from or eventually going to, only the next hope

17:34 <+psi> yes

17:34 <+psi> a mixnet

17:35 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> That's a word I've seen, but wasn't really explained to my satisfaction.

17:35 <+psi> hold on just got started

< harlock> hop

17:35 < harlock> we hope to reach the next hop :P

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17:35 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Right. Feel free to ignore any questions I lay down until the end, I know you'll have read them, and I'll try to pipe down until you're done.

17:36 <+psi> with i2p the main conjecture is that i2p destinations can never be corrilated to an ip address

17:36 <+psi> if that is possible then i2p is broke

17:37 <+psi> so

17:37 -!- PrivacyHawk [amnesia@irc2p] has quit [Client exited]

17:37 <+psi> alice wants to talk to bobo

17:37 <+psi> bob*

17:37 <+psi> alice has bob's destination

17:37 <+psi> alice first builds what is called a tunnel

17:37 <+psi> a tunnel is simply put a path that a message takes

17:37 <+psi> it can have 0 to N hops

17:38 <+psi> current max N is 3

17:38 <+psi> (at this point)

17:38 <+psi> bob has a tunnel already built waiting to be connected to

17:38 -!- PrivacyHawk [amnesia@irc2p] has joined #i2p-chat

17:38 <+psi> he may have 2 hops or 0 hops alice does not know

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17:39 <+psi> alice builds a N hop tunnel and connects it to bob's

17:39 <+psi> this is 1 /2 of the transaction

17:39 <+psi> tunnels are unidirectional

17:39 <+psi> you can only send or recieve

17:39 <+psi> because of that

17:39 <+psi> in order for bob to get back to alice you need to verify that alice is really alice

17:40 <+psi> once that verification is done then bob connects back with the same processs to alice

17:40 <+psi> and that is 1 connection on i2p

17:40 <+psi> no tcp syn yet

17:41 <+psi> you can deny replying back with a tunnel based on rulesets, you can have a big whitelist of destinations that are allowed to be coonnected back to

17:41 <+psi> hence the term "invisble" internet

17:41 <+psi> you DONT know if the site is up or not you could just not be allowed to see it

17:42 <+psi> anyways back on track

17:42 <+psi> once this build tunnel to bob and bob back to alice is done the lifespan of this tunnel is 10 minutes max

17:42 <+psi> hence you are constantly building tunnels and switching them

17:43 <+psi> do you see how this varies GREATLY from cjdns?

17:43 <+psi> this is an ANONYMOUS MIXNET

17:43 <+psi> with a tcp and upd layer on top

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17:43 <+psi> you CAN NEVER COMPARE this to cjdns

17:44 <+psi> cjdns is NOT ANYTHING close to i2p

17:44 <+psi> since tunnels criss cross over the same machines...

17:44 -!- Bry8Star [Bry8Star@irc2p] has joined #i2p-chat

17:44 <+psi> you hvae chances to bundle messages together into 1 big message

17:45 <+psi> the term garlic routing means to clump messages together and have them unpack like cloves of garlic

17:45 <+psi> this clumping and unclumping of messages makes traffic analysis practically impossbile

17:46 <+psi> jercos tell me how cjdns works

17:46 <+psi> (in your own words)

17:46 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> So you might be taking a totally different return path for the same connection?

17:46 <+psi> yes

17:46 <+psi> you are every time

17:46 <+psi> and it shifts every 10 minutes

17:46 <+dg> Simply us having a conversation here is resulting in loads of tunnels

17:46 <+dg> These messages are being sent through loads

17:47 <+dg> and iirc, you have tunnels which just sit there doing nothing, yes psi?

17:47 <+psi> yes tunnels dont need to hvae data

17:47 <+psi> they can just sit there

17:47 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Okie-dokie-loki, my own words, here goes...

17:47 * efkt pokes a tunnel methodically

17:48 <+dg> on a side note psi, we could really do with some site like that drug one on Tor, simply to get us tested to hell and back -- although of course, it's illegal and

that'd be

bad for us, it'd still mean attention + lots of feds poking around trying to break things

17:48 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdns's lowest layer implements a label switching system, where a variable length tag is added to a label to create a path describing an entire

trip

through the network from one endpoint to another

17:48 <+psi> dg: blackmarket.i2p

17:48 <+psi> also ssshhh respect

17:48 <+dg> sorry

17:48 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> in that sense it's very much non-anonymous, and more comparable to ethernet, however, that route may change without affecting traffic at all.

17:50 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> And I guess non-symmetric routes can easily exist, but I think there's some route searching optimization that uses the label reversal (the

entire path

is still described to the endpoint you reach, because at each hop the relevant label is removed, bit-reversed, and stuck on the other edge of the label, so a

simple

bit-reversal of the label will take you back to the origin of any message)

17:50 -!- anonymous534 [anonymous@irc2p] has joined #i2p-chat

17:50 -!- anonymous534 is now known as bobobobobob

17:51 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I don't very well understand the routing protocol involved, though I've been told it's kademlia based, but nodes use their own cryptographic

identity

to sign advertisements of routes, with each node along the way adding the appripriate label to climb the network at each hop

17:53 <+psi> anything else or is the lag here?

17:54 < efkt> pong

17:54 <+psi> jercos still typing?

17:54 <+dg> ping

17:54 <+dg> possibly

17:54 <+psi> efkt dg thanks

17:54 < efkt> Cheers.

17:54 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> ping

17:54 <+psi> pong

17:54 <@KillYourTV> k

17:55 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> ding

17:55 <+psi> dong

17:55 * efkt has to play tf2 now, thanks

17:55 < efkt> DING DONG

17:55 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> XD

17:55 <+psi> timeoout?

17:56 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> er, sorry, got called away to help a cow-orker.

17:56 <+psi> ah

17:56 <+dg> np

17:56 <+psi> so what you've described cjdns as is not an anonymity network but a way to verify that a route is reached to an endpoint without any anonymity involved

17:57 <+psi> shitty anonymity is an after effect

17:57 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> So anyway, for a given route, each node will have elected a single path based on latency, and established a CA session with the endpoint,

generating a

session key and handshaking using mutually cryptographic identities

17:57 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> each IPv6 address matches a key, and vice versa

17:57 <+psi> well... even anonymity

17:57 <+psi> not even*

17:57 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Sure, like I said, no anonymity in the design.

17:57 <+psi> so dont compare it to i2p

17:57 <+psi> i2p is an anonymous mixnet

17:58 <+psi> it provides anonymiy

17:58 <+psi> fucking keyboard

17:58 <+dg> It's sad because people use it for i2p like qualities and it's not the same thing.

17:58 <+dg> <dg>IIn any case, it is more dangerous to be fucking up when you believe you have anonymity than when you fully believe you do not (thinking you have protected

yourself when

you haven't is more dangerous than knowing you're unsafe and moderating yourself accordingly)

17:58 <+psi> cjdns is being used like a non anonymous i2p

17:58 <+psi> and being advertised as an i2p

17:58 <+psi> THAT is the problem

17:58 <+dg> possibly with psuedo-anonymity which is.. bad.. very bad

17:58 <+dg> ^^

17:58 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> But I mean, that's what it is.

17:59 <+psi> there is NO anonymity on cjdns so please do NOT compare it to i2p

17:59 <+psi> i2p is anonymity centric

17:59 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> It's a non-anonymous i2p. it's a private network, authenticated end to end, carrying a service, and happens to not expose your IP, no matter if

you're

consuming or providing a service

17:59 <+psi> cjdns is just another cute darknet

17:59 <+dg> I'm all for cute darknets, but i2p is something different, and really, we could do with the users

18:00 <+psi> i2p is ultra fucking cryptopgraphic noise machine

18:00 <+psi> cjdns can not compare

18:00 <+dg> i2p has an amazing amount of potential, so when some other project comes along, claims they can do things which we can (when they can't/we can do better), is

annoying.

18:00 <+psi> please dont compare

18:00 <+dg> i'm all for cjdns in the right places

18:00 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> chugga chugga steam powered anonymity

18:00 <+psi> except cjdns has no anonymtiy

18:00 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> All the right anonymity in all the right places.

18:01 <+psi> as you said back there

18:01 <+psi> It's a non-anonymous i2p

18:01 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> There has been a lot of discussion about running tor on cjdns, for that matter I don't see how i2p and cjdns wouldn't want to co-exist even.

18:01 <+psi> cjdns is being used incorrectly

18:01 <+psi> it's real potential is in connecting those without internet to the intenret

18:01 <+dg> i2p could definitely run on cjdns, but cjdns is for bridging over to places which do not have real internet

18:01 <+dg> It isn't some makeshift darknet, replacement for i2p

18:02 <+psi> cjdns is fucking weak vs i2p

18:02 <+psi> cjdns is NOT meant to be used as a darknet

18:02 <+psi> EVER

18:02 <+dg> the guy who came up with i2p is a fucking genius

18:02 <+psi> cjdns is nice too

18:02 < efkt> Huh. Guys, I can run a private tor based network (for example, within a vpn), can I do the same with i2p to a relatively easy degree?

18:02 <+psi> but it's not being used right

18:03 <+dg> efkt: good question. I was thinking about that also.

18:03 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Well it does very much fit the friend to friend model of a darknet

18:03 <+psi> dg: talk with Meeh

18:03 <+psi> no not even close

18:03 < efkt> Because then garlicat would be hella fun, wouldnt it

18:03 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdroute doesn't advertise its existance in any way unless a CA is set up.

18:03 <+psi> it does not even come close to i2p

18:03 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> If you don't have the password or the key connecting in, cjdroute is quiet.

18:03 <@KillYourTV> efkt: That should be possible. There's possibly a guide somewhere on zzz.i2p

18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> woah woah, sicne when is i2p "the darknet"?

18:04 <+dg> also, cjdns is a bad idea in some respects :p

18:04 <+psi> cjdns is NOT anonymous, i2p is

18:04 <+dg> you have no plausible edniability

18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I wasn't saying "cjdns is i2p", I was saying "cjdns is a darknet"

18:04 <+dg> this message /definitely/ came from me!

18:04 <+dg> hahaha

18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> as we've outlined, not an anonymous darknet

18:04 <+dg> does nobody else see the problem with this?

18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> but it is in fact, a network that from the outside appears dark, and only spreads through direct peering.

18:04 <+psi> why the hell would you want an non anonymous darknet? it defeats the whoole purpose of a darknet.

18:04 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Well, the problem doesn't really exist IMO.

18:05 <+psi> the anonymity aspect is the part that protects you in a darknet

18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> It's the same sort of concept with Frost, you have to be able to build an identity

18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> you can make a new identity in a split second, then throw it away when you're done.

18:05 <+dg> arguably in i2p, you don't have a real identity

18:05 < cipher> its a meshnet, not a darknet

18:05 <+psi> frost is something entirely differnt

18:05 <+psi> cipher: that

18:05 <+psi> meshnet != darknet

18:05 <+dg> I could throw dg away in a few seconds

18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> Right, it's not a darknet that protects you from others on the darknet

18:05 <+psi> meshnets are best used to connect stuff to the internet

18:05 <+dg> .

18:05 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> I don't see that as being part of the definition of a darknet.

18:05 <+dg> that's not the darknets job LOL

18:06 <+dg> darknets are not firewalls

18:06 <+psi> what cjdns provides is perfect for what it's NOT being used for

18:06 <+psi> cjdns is being used in a totally incorhiernt manner

18:06 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> a darknet is just a network that you can't join unless you know someone on it, right?

18:06 <+dg> no

18:06 <+dg> it is not

18:06 <+psi> dg: cjdns is a routing engine

18:06 <+dg> not @ you, psi

18:07 <+dg> <iRelay> <jercos@freenode> a darknet is just a network that you can't join unless you know someone on it, right?

18:07 < cipher> not really

18:07 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> well, wikipedia tells me the term darknet only applies to filesharing services, so obviously I can't use that definition :|

18:07 < cipher> youre thinking of a F2F network

18:07 <+psi> in application cjdns is best for connecting parts of the world without internet to the internet

18:07 <+dg> I joined i2p and I didn't know anyone on it beforehand.

18:07 <+psi> yet it's not being used for that

18:07 < cipher> ^^

18:07 <+psi> it's being used to connect people on the internet

18:07 <+psi> it makes no sense

18:07 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> cjdns is a routing engine *and* a physical VPN, *and* an end to end encrypted tunnel

18:08 <+psi> the current application of cjdns is nonsensical

18:08 <+dg> If you want anonymity or to have that cool crypto factor, or both, i2p is what you want.

18:08 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> well where is the term darknet firmly defined?

18:08 <+psi> and claiming it has anonymity is a lie

18:08 <+dg> If you think i2p hasn't got enough content or whatever, that is irrelevant.

18:08 -!- zab_afk is now known as zab_

18:08 <+psi> if you want content go onto the internet

18:08 <+psi> or 4chan

18:08 <+psi> you find a lot of stuff there

18:08 < cipher> I think TCX defines darknet best

18:08 <+psi> no anonymtiy

18:08 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> But if I pick up the cool crypto factor from i2p, I'm not longer using IP.

18:08 <+psi> but lots of stuff

18:08 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> no longer*

18:08 <+dg> what

18:09 <+dg> why do you need to be using ip

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18:09 <+dg> i don't understand why it's required

18:09 <+psi> what are you using ipx?

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=== HIGHLIGHT ===

18:10 <+psi> main beef with cjdns is that it's being used as reddit's toy and not being deployed where it would be more useful

=================

18:10 <+dg> yup

18:11 <+dg> let me uh.. hang on.

18:11 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan

18:11 <+dg> It calls cjdns an alternative to the internet

18:11 <+iRelay> Title: Meshnet Plan (at www.reddit.com)

18:11 <+psi> cjdns is NOT an alternative to the internet in any way

18:12 <+psi> it's a way to connect people with out internet to the main net easily

18:12 <+psi> that is what it is DESIGNED to do BEST

18:12 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/yrxn3/no_fing_way_this_is_exactly_what_we_dont_want/ - proof.

18:12 <+psi> but sadly reddit is playing darknet with it

18:12 <+dg> They're trying to go for an alternative, resistant to attacks network

18:12 <+dg> That is *NOT* cjdns.

18:13 <+psi> in fact it's i2p

18:13 <+psi> and we've been TRYING to explain it but everyone is like "no gtfo we use cjdns"

18:13 <+dg> "Tor and I2P do a really good job anonymizing the existing internet, at the cost of locking down what you can do with it to the small set of services included in the

anonymizer. CJDNS does a good job at creating a secure virtual internet, protected from DDoS and censorship, but not very anonymous (more pseudonymous, like Bitcoin).

CJDNS

is also a lot more flexible, though the lack of exit nodes is an irritant to some people."

18:13 <+dg> lol

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18:13 <+dg> "secure virtual internet"

18:14 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/ywkoj/eli5_tor_vs_cjdns_vs_i2p/c5zpwnr - ugh

18:15 <+dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/yfeum/newb_question_the_mesh_meets_internet/c5vgcj0

18:15 <+dg> "So basically what I am getting at with this thread is a sort of guerrilla style internet. Ye olde BBS meets HAM radio kinda thing, but obviously much more robust.

Again I

am new to this, so bare with me. "

18:15 < efkt> -.-

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18:15 <+dg> <dg> "Tor and I2P do a really good job anonymizing the existing internet, at the cost of locking down what you can do with it to the small set of services included in

the

anonymizer. CJDNS does a good job at creating a secure virtual internet, protected from DDoS and censorship, but not very anonymous (more pseudonymous, like Bitcoin).

CJDNS

is also a lot more flexible, though the lack of exit nodes is an irritant to some people."

18:15 <+dg> <dg> lol

18:15 <+dg> [[netsplit]]

18:15 <+dg> <dg> "secure virtual internet"

18:15 <+dg> <dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/ywkoj/eli5_tor_vs_cjdns_vs_i2p/c5zpwnr - ugh

18:15 <+dg> <dg> http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/comments/yfeum/newb_question_the_mesh_meets_internet/c5vgcj0

18:16 <+dg> <dg> "So basically what I am getting at with this thread is a sort of guerrilla style internet. Ye olde BBS meets HAM radio kinda thing, but obviously much more

robust.

Again I am new to this, so bare with me. "

18:16 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> >.>

18:16 <+iRelay> Title: Rainfly_X comments on ELI5 - TOR vs CJDNS vs I2P (at www.reddit.com)

18:16 <+iRelay> Title: UStud88 comments on Newb question: The mesh meets internet (at www.reddit.com)

18:16 <+psi> oh god

18:16 <+dg> We need to educate them

18:17 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> >pseudonymous

18:17 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> that would be the word I was looking for when i said semi-anonymous.

18:17 <+dg> The rest of it is bad.

18:17 <+dg> That was the only really good part of it

18:17 <+dg> They actually said pseudonymous

18:19 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> :p

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18:27 <@KillYourTV> ping

18:27 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> pong

18:27 < efkt> pong

18:27 <+dg> ping

18:28 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> ding

18:28 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> pong

18:28 <+iRelay> <kytv@freenode> lag's not too bad...

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18:29 <+iRelay> <kytv@oftc> ...considering to <---> from freenode & oftc is via Tor

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18:30 <+psi> pseudoanoymity is poor anonymity

18:30 <+psi> cjdns sucks at anonymity

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18:30 <+psi> according to all this

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18:31 <+dg> psi: it's becoming apparent we /really/ should tell them

18:31 * psi makes pastes of conversation with permission of those involved for educational purposes

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18:31 * dg gives permission

18:31 <+psi> frenode guy ok with you?

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18:32 -!- mode/#i2p-chat [+v kiribati] by chanserv

18:32 <+psi> jercos?

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18:34 <@KillYourTV> &relay nicks

18:34 <+iRelay> freenode (6): iRelay, jercos, kytv, Mango2, mikalv, welterde; kytv (5): @iRelay, @KillYourTV, @MrGarrison, @ReturningNovice_, nick; oftc (2): @iRelay, kytv

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18:39 <+iRelay> <jercos@freenode> You have my permission to replay my words elsewhere, so long as they are not modified.