Jason Murphy and Patrick Kyle converse for Comics Workbook Magazine. 8-12-2014

PK:We’ve previously talked a lot about video pieces that have informed your work, ie. The Young Ones, The Clyde Frog Show, and most recently Alantutorial videos on youtube. All of these shows rely on really physical performances from the actors and depict a lot of danger and things being destroyed/falling apart/being put together in a stupid way. It’s interesting to imagine these kinds of really physical situations in a medium like comics that’s composed of still images. What attracts you to these shows? What is it about them that made you want to translate their kind of humour and tone into your comics?

JM:That’s interesting. I never really thought of it like that. I am a pretty nostalgic person, so often when I am beginning a comic or drawing, I try to remember situations from my past. My stepfather was a carpenter and there were always projects going on around the house growing up. I remember there being a lot of piles of wood and cords around, which would be a prologue to some project (or the aftermath)that he was working on. I want my work to feel like that, like “what just happened?”, or “what’s about to happen?”…The Clyde Frog Show is a big influence on my book “Juvenitive”. It was produced in my hometown of Jackson Mississippi in the 70s. It was a children’s puppet show that dealt with safety issues and it creeped me out. Clyde would do things like O.D. on pills and climb into a freezer. He would almost die pretty much every episode. I loved the absurdity of The Young Ones. In that show anything can happen at any given moment. I try to approach my comics in that way. They are created page by page with very little forethought. The alantutorial videos are another example of how i would like my work to feel. He puts you through a gauntlet of emotions with those things. ”Am i scared?” ”This is hilarious!” “Am I sad for this person?”… How about you? Are there any memories based on media that influence your work?

PK:There’s definitely pieces of my work that follow stuff I enjoyed when I was a kid: “Black Mass” was informed in part by Ren and Stimpy episodes and in part by The Bash Street Kids comics from The Beano; “Distance Mover” is basically a Tom Baker era Doctor Who fan fiction. I never saw the Young Ones as a kid, but as a semi-adult I got deep into it. Anything-can-and-will-happen story telling is usually pretty enjoyable. That’s definitely the approach I’ve used in the majority of my comics to date. When I was working on Black Mass in 2008 and 2009 I remember finishing pages and thinking “What would be the stupidest thing that could happen next?” That was the extent of my planning. Most recently though I’ve been thumbnailing and writing down ideas prior to working on pages. I realized that at this point though I’ve done like 600 (give or take) pages of comics without so much as writing an idea down which is kind of crazy. I’m trying to put something together that’s a little more coherent but still hopefully esoteric and weird. How much planning do you put into a comic before you put it into production?

JM:Oh man, my kids have just discovered Ren and Stimpy and we watch the Nature Show episode over and over.That was a big one for me as well. I think having departed from making comics for so long has dictated the way that I approach my work. I stopped making comics when I was 19 and picked it back up again when I was 35. All that time away was spent making solitary pictures, therefore when i begin a comic, I am only thinking of the fist page. After the first page is complete, I begin to think about the 2nd and so on until I reach the last page and I’m forced to button it up. That’s why my comics always end with some random thing like a cat licking it’s butt. That reminds me, the other day I accidentally dropped a potato on my cat’s head and she sneezed for about a minute. I was terrified that I had killed her. That may work it’s way into a book. Do you ever use specific occurrences like that in your work?, or are they purely fantastical? She’s ok by the way. The cat.

PK:I’m glad your cat’s fine. I do use a lot of small bits and pieces of daily life in my work, but it’s usually thoroughly mixed in with imagined scenarios. I stepped over a mess in my house and thought “I’m into stepping over messes I’ll know I’ll have to clean up later” and then I wrote it into a comic. I think that’s why I’m making more of an effort to write things down and make notes throughout the day so I can keep including those funny spontaneous thoughts in my work. What was your work like when you were 19? How different was your approach to comics then and what made you want to take such a long break?

JM:Well, when I was 19 I was basically a Robert Crumb rip-off artist. I made comics that reeked of sad sack cynicism. I had gone through many stages up until that point. There was a brief period in between being a Jim Davis rip-off artist at age 12 and a Sam Keith rip-off artist at age 14, where I feel like I was doing some unique stuff. I was heavily into Robert Crumb my freshman year of art school and my very first assignment was given by a very distinguished fine art professor by the name of Leslie Lerner. He asked the class to go home that night and draw their version of a “masterpiece”. I think I drew a comic about a naked lady with a light bulb for a head or something. When I got the assignment back from him, he had written the word “trite” on the back of it. After I looked up what the word “trite” meant, I felt disappointed and a little angry. Now, while that wasn’t the exact moment I gave up comics, it was pivotal. I was young and insecure and I allowed that sort of mentality to affect me. In a way, I am thankful for that experience, because without the time I spent away from comics, I would not have the perspective that I have today. Who knows, maybe my stuff would still look like Crumbs? Now, that being said, I would never discourage an artist from making comics. I think it is one of the most important artistic endeavors that has ever existed. Do you remember any particular experiences from your youth that may have had an effect on the way you make comics today?

PK: That’s such an audacious assignment to give first year art students - he probably wrote trite, or worse, on the back of everyone’s work. I know a lot of people have similar stories about fine-arts-program-professors dissuading them from pursuing comics. I had a pretty good experience at art school though - I studied illustration and it was obviously in their interest to encourage us to engage in graphic arts and comics. That was a pretty good and formative time for me - I even drew the first issue of Black Mass as an assignment in 4th year. I feel sort of embarrassed knowing that a lot of cartoonists had a less than ideal time navigating art school, but for me it was really important. I wouldn’t be making the kind of work I am today if I had skipped it or dropped out.

A lot of your comics pages today can easily stand alone as single images or illustrations. Did the characters and scenes you depict in your current comics appear in your work before you started adding the narrative aspect?

JM: Yea, I think he just had a trite stamp that he carried around in his pocket. I don’t want to give the impression that art school was all bad. I did learn a lot, and after that freshman year I decided to major in Illustration, because I felt like I was not ready to deeply analyze my work or the work of others. I really just wanted to learn to draw and paint. Yea, the “Booger” character from “Me Nut Nut Nut” began showing up in my work just prior to my return to comics. I had done pictures of of him flossing, falling out of chairs, and generally struggling with those kinds of common practices. “Me Nut Nut Nut #1” began as a collection of drawings, and I found that when i put them in a box and tacked “end” in the bottom right corner, they felt like comics. That was extremely exciting to me and it lead me to explore other artists’ work such as yourself. As I began to re-discover this whole movement of artists making comics, I became the most enthusiastic that I had been in years concerning my art and I knew that this element of art was what I had been missing all along. I get the Guston comparison a quite a bit. Your work makes me think of Kandinsky, but is there a visual artist who’s work influences you, who people would never expect?

PK:Guston seems really popular right now among a lot of cartoonists (myself included.) I’ve never really looked at Kandinsky but looking now I can see the resemblance. I have pretty broad tastes, but I don’t feel like I run deep enough into the fine art world to really pin point any particular artists who have had any serious effect on my work. Cartoonists though? I’m not sure if it’s visually apparent in my work, but Mark Beyer is one of my biggest influences.

I love the approach you described - of putting a drawing into a panel and marking it with “end” like a punchline - It’s funny how something simple can be so transformative. They are set apart from what someone might think of as a traditional comic strip, but simultaneously they are of course comic strips. I think it’s important for cartoonists to remember it’s a medium of just paper and drawing utensils; There’s nothing preventing you from approaching it however you like. Do you ever feel inhibited by the potential openness of the medium? Would it ever interest you to make a straight forward work that would be more easily digested by a broader audience?

JM: Oh yea, Mark Beyer is great! I can see a similarity in your writing styles as well. I remember his Liquid Television thing. Although at the time I probably didn’t appreciate it enough because I was knee-deep in worthless, poly-bagged X-Force number one issues… I don’t feel inhibited, in fact I am inspired by the openness of the comics medium. Having the potential to approach comics in a completely instinctive way is what excites me. I have a day job, so I am able to liberate myself from the burden of having to produce my personal art in order to make a living. (That is what I keep telling myself anyway) This allows me the freedom to create work selfishly. Although, I wouldn’t say that I completely disregard the audience. I try to create scenarios that trigger emotions in myself, and hopefully the audience can reciprocate. What is super exciting to me is the idea of someone having a completely different emotional response to my work than I originally intended for myself. For instance, If I draw a scene that I feel is terrifying and someone reads it and finds it hilarious or sad. Do you consider the audience at all while creating your work? Do you feel that regard for an audience dictates the distinction between so called “art comics” and fundamental comics?

PK: Lately I’ve been thinking about the audience a little more than I was when I was first making comics. Since I’m trying to make a go of this as a living I feel sort of inclined - - at this point in my career at least - - to make something that’s more immediately accessible to more people. That being said I don’t want that inclination to stop me from making challenging work. My thought has always generally been if you show people something they don’t understand enough times they’ll eventually learn the short hand of it. Now that I have more work out there I think people are generally “getting it” a bit more but also I’m growing as a cartoonist and writer: My compositions are getting more balanced and less chaotic; I’m trying to write stories beyond the non-sensical fantasy of my other works. I need to be conscious of the audience because that’s what’s going to be required of me if I’m going to this work as some sort of career but my goal first and foremost is still to make things that other people wouldn’t make.

You’ve mostly been focused on creating short works so far. Are they plans afoot for a short story collection? Do you have any book length pieces in the works?

JM: That really is the ultimate goal isn’t it? Being able to sustain a living by doing what you love. I like that shorthand theory. Popeye’s face may have been frightening at first but now it’s a symbol. I can see how you’ve used that with your panel-less compositions, and your use of symbols and peripheral design elements. After a while, they just feel like they belong there. Every little blob and sqiuggle are exactly where they need to be in order to propel the story. I am drawn toward creating shorter narratives. Some of that comes from needing that satisfaction of being done with a book and holding it in my hands. The longer the story, the longer I have to wait for that moment. It would be nice to collect this stuff one day into a thicker book, but I feel that a publisher would need to step in and handle that for me, because once I am finished with a project, It is so difficult for me to go back and revisit it. I am currently working on “Me Nut Nut Nut 3” and I hope for it to be out in early 2015. It may be a longer story simply because 4 short stories will be taking place simultaneously within the structure of the narrative.

My kids are turning five soon and they are beginning to get interested in drawing their own comics. So i’m sure I will be stealing all kinds of stuff from them and using it in my books. In fact, page 11 from “Juvenitive #3” was drawn by my daughter at CAKE in Chicago where you and I met! Growing up, I really wasn’t around much creativity in my immediate family, yet I became obsessed with drawing at a very early age. Was that the case with you, or did you come from a creative family?

PK: I remember my Dad drawing with my sister and I sometimes when we were kids. My Mum used to lead these children’s day-care-type-programs and when I was pre-kindergarten or some kind of situation where I wasn’t in school I had to go with her to work and be part of the day care program. She organized all kinds of craft building and other creative activities that I think really stuck with me. During those formative years there was also a lot of great low budget Canadian children’s programs on the air and they almost always showed you how to turn some garbage into something. One specifically was called “Take Part” and it had a lot of musical and craft building segments. (This one segment from Take Part, Marke’s Recycle Cycle, Is quite literally about a man finding garbage and turning it into something else) Could this be where I was inspired to do no preliminary planning and use inexpensive unprofessional materials? Probably. My sister and I would always draw tons of comics when we went camping. My parents would take us camping for like a week or two weeks or some amount of time that seemed incredibly long. There was nothing to do except draw and occasionally drive to this small town near by where my parents bought me Sonic the Hedgehog comics. My sister and I spent most of the trip drawing in the kitchen tent (the net that covers a picnic table to prevent insects from entering) and copying things out of the comics. I think all of those things helped push me into the creative field I’m in - I don’t know how I settled on comics though. I can remember drawing a comic in like grade 4 and then deciding “Yeah, I’m good at this. This is what I’ll do for the rest of my life.” I distinctly remember having that thought. I’m not sure why I was so staunch about it. Somehow that impulse in my 9 year old brain has influenced my decision making well into my adult life.

You mentioned liking the immediacy of finishing a project and then immediately being able to have it printed and have a finished book in your hands. I feel that way a lot too. I’m really impatient and eager and I focus a lot on the finished project, sometimes before I’ve even made a dent in the actual work. The internet, tumblr specifically, is a place where you can publish a work literally a few minutes after finishing it and immediately get sort-of-feedback about it. Do you think that’s a positive thing for you or do you think that it can affect the course of a project you’re working on?

JM: That’s great. I’m going to go get a bug net and some some Sonic comics for my kids right now! The immediacy of tumblr is great. I work so spontaneously to begin with, that tumblr isn’t affecting my work at all. If anything it propels it, because i’m so enthusiastic about sharing. It’s sort of always been a part of my process to share my pages online as I create them. Tumblr has been very crucial in my marginal success as a comic book maker. I spent the fist couple of years just saying “yes” to any and every opportunity that came my way through tumblr connections. It wasn’t until just recently that I began to decline stuff because of being so spread thin. I figure book people are book people and if they enjoy your work online, they will buy your book. The people who get fulfillment from looking at jpegs aren’t really buying many books anyway. The excitement of feeling paper and smelling ink eludes them.

I made my first proper comic book when I was 13 years old. It was based on a true event in which my two best friends got into a fight after school. One stabbed the other repeatedly in the ribs with a pencil while being held in a vigorous headlock. Ten minutes later I had them shaking hands, all red faced and bloody. Now I grew up in an area where this sort of thing happened quite often, but because it was happening between two people that I cared about, it was extremely traumatic. I discovered that creating an absurd comic book version of this event made me feel better. It was cathartic, and I feel like now I often use art, specifically now with comics, to deal with traumatic situations which have occurred throughout my life. Do you feel that trauma plays a roll at all in your work?

PK: That’s a really intense situation to have happen right in front of you. I’m glad your friends were mostly OK. The general ugliness of the world can be pretty traumatic when you’re a kid.

I fell off my bike and broke my arm 3 years ago. I wasn’t wearing a helmet or anything and I fell on a street with busy traffic and a streetcar barreling down the road behind me. Sometimes It dawns on me if the circumstance were a bit different I probably would have died. The thought of mortality is really crippling to me - as is anything that is sort of unknown and infinite. I assume everyone (maybe) has those moments when you remember that you’re going to die or you think about the vastness of space and you’re sort of just silenced by it. Cartoonists are mostly bad at depicting this sort of thing - always very heavy handed. I’ve been trying to depict those kinds of moments in my recent comics. I like to think about that one Hans Holbein painting The Ambassadors (the one with the skull in weird perspective floating in the middle of the painting that you can only see defined by looking at it from a certain angle.) I’m sure you could argue that it’s incredibly heavy handed, but I think it’s pretty great - these rich people and all their worldly garbage with this giant ghost floating between them. It’s actually kind of terrifying.

That’s something I enjoy about your work - you characters are often trapped or struggling with something and for me it’s a metaphor for the drudgery life. It’s kind of like when you’re having a dream and you need to run or throw a punch or something and you just feel incredibly heavy and you can only move really slowly. That’s sort of how I feel all the time (haha) and your work really represents that kind of burden effectively. Do you ever think about your work in that respect?

JM:Yea those guys are ok now I think. I’ve sort of lost touch with them. The one who got stabbed a bunch is Ju Jitsu fighter now. There’s a video of him on youtube breaking some guy’s arm. So I guess he didn’t learn his lesson.

Yes, the realization of mortality has really done a job on me especially since having kids, and while it may not be directly conscious, I am aware that it is reflected in my work. I feel like the same thing happens with religious themes in my work. They just show up. Religious iconography is so deeply engrained in me because I was in church my entire life up until I moved away from home at age seventeen. For the longest time I struggled against the urge to reference religion in my work until I began making comics. Something about making comics allowed me to completely give in to those deep urges. Here I was, thirty five years old and beginning to make comic books for the first time since I was a boy. It allowed me to abandon my ego in a way. Every form of expression became safe. I understand what you mean about feeling heavy and weighed down, it can be a terrifying feeling if you just allow yourself to take it in. Although, when I was a kid I used to crawl into my closet and just pile everything in my room on top me and squish myself. I would lay there ,and it was so comforting! It was almost like whatever the opposite of claustrophobia would be. If I tried that now I would probably have a panic attack. Maybe that’s why I draw figures being piled on all the time. I don’t know if it’s a metaphor for being comforted or being burdened. Do you like plants?

PK: I love that you piled things all over you in the closet. I think that would be a really nice feeling.

Plants: I’m trying to turn plants into a regular hobby. House plants: I have a Chinese Evergreen, a hanging Spider plant, another Spider plant that I bred from the first spider plant, an Aloe plant, a Red-edged dracaena, a Jade plant, and a weird little one that I don’t know the name of. I’m bad at taking care of them. I don’t know if I’m over watering them or under watering them or whether they’re not getting enough light or getting too much light. The leaves are always falling off but they’re all still alive at the moment. We moved earlier this year and for some reason it was really important to me to paint my studio white and have plants. I wanted it to be really clean and minimal and just have a bunch of plants all over the place. I don’t know what more I could ask for in a studio. What kind of environment do you work in? Do you have a dedicated studio space where you live?

JM: Yea, my wife and I have a detached two-car garage that I remodeled into an art studio a few years back. I also painted it all white. No plants in there though, but there is a full size etching press and lots of spiders. It’s been really nice to be able to physically leave our house to go work, without actually leaving our property. It feels like the best of both worlds. Although, it’s not climate controlled so in the middle of summer or winter it can be pretty miserable in there if I’m working on smaller scale stuff. If I’m working on a larger painting while standing, or if I’m printmaking, it doesn’t really get to me.

JM: OK last question, What are you currently working on and what are your plans for the upcoming year?

PK:The next big thing on my plate is a month long book tour with Michael DeForge and Simon Hanselmann in support of my Koyama Press book “Distance Mover.” I just release the fourth issue of my self-published short comic anthology New Comics and I’ll probably work towards releasing a fifth issue early in 2015. I’m working on a potential graphic novel length work right now called “Don’t Come In Here.” It’s a story in vignettes about a guy alone in a really big apartment. The first bit of it is in New Comics 4 and I have a bunch more of it finished but I may wait until the whole thing is done before I release any more. Thanks Jason. I’m looking forward to all of your new work with great anticipation.

JM: Thank you Patrick. I really enjoyed this conversation! Now you boys get out there and bang that drum!