Grimes was the guest on theoretical physicist Sean M. Carroll’s Mindscape podcast this week, where she talked about the intersection of music and technology and the possibilities of AI creating music. And like a lot of things that Grimes does, her appearance has proven to be somewhat controversial.

During the episode, Grimes said that “live music is going to be obsolete soon,” which some people took exception to. On Twitter, Zola Jesus called her the “voice of silicon fascist privilege” and former Majical Cloudz frontman Devon Welsh, who used to date Grimes and collaborate with her, described her comments as “silicon valley fascist propaganda.”

Grimes has since responded to these criticisms in another series of tweets. “Technology has always changed the way we make/ consume music and it’s not going to stop here,” she wrote. “Where could it go and what are the potential positive outcomes? We can’t prevent bad outcomes if we don’t start envisioning good outcomes.”

Read their full conversation below.

Went on @seanmcarroll for a trippy deep dive into music production that spiraled into chaos. I eventually pretended to solve this equation and he agreed to join the board of my company https://t.co/Q90YJGDwpV pic.twitter.com/44hqqVk0SG — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 18, 2019

I’m not dying on a hill, just having a good time. I care about the future of art, why not speculate on it? Seems weird to withhold ideas, and even weirder that suggesting potential futures can cause so much rage — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 20, 2019

says the voice of silicon fascist privilege https://t.co/rsn04V7AyV — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

i don’t fault someone for being out of touch, but approaching the future of music and art with so much cynicism can only come from someone who really has nothing to lose — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

her new song is really beautiful. artists are complicated people. but danger comes from unchecked wealth and power. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

no beef.

i’m just over here trying to re-animate the dying corpse of the only thing that gives me pure meaning and joy is all

i’m not a musician second third or fourth.

music and performing live music rituals is my lifeblood, one and only — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

about to delete all this, but i feel very stressed out by waxing poetic about robotic futures. maybe i'm too much of a humanist to think that's a good use of our potential for evolution. the further we distance ourselves from our humanity, the easier it will be to oppress us. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

you can't automate enlightenment — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

lol sorry but fuck this. This is silicon valley fascist propaganda https://t.co/pfdIsc1ep1 — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

These are things we have the power to decide. I'm not willing to cynically dismiss our humanity away so easily like this. A small handful of companies profit immensely by pushing people toward the "shimmery, perfected Photoshop world". We can fight back. Don't believe the hype. — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

Silicon-fascism is real, and has a vested interest in framing technological domination as the "natural progression" of things. It isn't, and I think most of us are not interested in being owned by unelected Silicon Valley kings. Live music is spiritually important. We need it. — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

We have to fight for humanity, and work hard to dismantle narratives talking about the inevitability of technological domination. We have to stand in solidarity with our fellow musicians who are out there working hard and doing good things. Dangerous narratives must be challenged — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

Glad the Grimes interview has sparked a conversation. Ask yourself, what side are you on? Silicon Valley fascism and the bird's-eye view of billionaires? Music has been our spiritual lifeblood since forever. We have the choice to continue that, but it involves taking a stand. — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

Everyone reading these tweets should start a band today. — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

assuming music is better automated by AI assumes that people don't need to make music in order to feel connected to themselves and the world-at-large on a spiritual level. it's approaching the idea of music solely as commodity, which feels naive and ignorant. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

They want us dead. No thank you. Fuck off. Anyone that thinks this is spiritually bankrupt, start a band now. Go see local bands on tour. Use art to communicate with one another. Reject techno-fascist takeover of our humanness. https://t.co/qgKxXyjiyw — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

i have an issue with people who are completely disconnected from working class struggles attacking a system that they don't rely on to survive while others do. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

and silicon fascism to me is the neoliberal tech takeover by privileged individuals, creating miniature oligarchic kingdoms of power that will inevitably control once-democratized systems. run on sentence eat your heart out. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

just trying to clarify that initial tweet because lord — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

i'm more worried about big tech overthrowing the government in the 2020's and fully oppressing the masses by using our data that we have voluntarily provided to them the past ten years. AI serves to propogate the power and control of the technofascist CEOs narcissistic egos — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

but that's just me! — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 21, 2019

This shouldn't be about musical elitism — I've seen tons of great music that did not involve exceptional talent on an instrument.

It's about a mode of thinking where technology will inevitably replace real, human culture.

Let's not turn our noses up at amateur musicians. https://t.co/4PYUJKvWNX — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

Musical skill is irrelevant to musical expression. Most of the shit that has moved me has not been made by people that studied music.

The musical ecosystem we should be most concerned about preserving is one for amateurs, beginners, experimenters, those coming at music uniquely. — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 21, 2019

i am ashamed of being a messy bitch today but i do feel like i need to stand up for the healing, guttural act of music and how weird it is to declare it’s something we’d rely on computers to do for us instead. like, the whole point is doing the purge! at least for me… — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

like, not everything is done for the product to sell. especially not art. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

was feeling bad about posting that shit yesterday until i saw a video of grimes on stage pretending to be an AI introducing elon as her "creator" and i'm like… nah my judgment is sound. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

music is only ever a means to an end in creepy ass big tech worship — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

some people value power and proximity to power above all else — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

people saying this is coming from jealousy are operating from the perspective that everyone wants to be rich and famous, which is a sickness born out of capitalism — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

and reducing it to a "girl fight" is a very patriarchal way of viewing this. just because i call someone out who isn't a dude doesn't mean i should hold my tongue. that's not feminism either. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

okay. enough. i'm done. sorry. this is a huge conversation, there will never be enough tweets for me to work through the weird malevolent world of big tech and music's honest place in it. it's a good conversation to have. but i mean no ill will. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

yes, but it's coming from someone who doesn't tour and has no real incentive to. i felt like her comments were coming from a place of privilege, unempathetic and lofted far above the reality of most working musicians. but i don't blame her. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

The fight we're talking about isn't Musicians vs DJs or

professionals vs amateurs It is Anti-corporate vs corporate

Community vs tech-isolation

Humanism vs silicon-fascism Ask yourself, is x good for our humanity? Does this empower us, or weaken us? And do we have a choice? — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 22, 2019

Is this where we want to be going? Are these our idols? Is this a future for everyone? Or just the wealthy few? https://t.co/akaCOXbHbo — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 22, 2019

more than ever we must re-engage with our humanity, as technological and oppressive forces dehumanize us in an effort to make us easier to control — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

we use tech but we can not let it use us (anymore than it already is) — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

these people don’t realize what great music actually means do they https://t.co/wZiqB87vgA — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 22, 2019

like for real, is it just me or isn’t human connectivity the point of music and art? what does great music even mean on a computational level? — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

art is SUBJECTIVE motherfuckers — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

1/ I agree w ZJ- let’s not call this a girl fight. She’s making hella interesting points here. Let’s go in! https://t.co/aK9lW7lwVY — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

2/ technology has always changed the way we make/ consume music and it’s not going to stop here. Where could it go and what are the potential positive outcomes? We can’t prevent bad outcomes if we don’t start envisioning good outcomes. — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

3/ technology is democratizing music! Ppl r making stunning art on laptops with no music education. more people making music = more art in the world = net positive. I’d argue we’re in the midst of an incredible creative explosion largely driven by accessible music technologies. — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

4/ Not all art will be good but that’s what art is. What matters is that people are experimenting. — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

5/ and that goes for performance aspect of music. Theres no question that a live human performer is one of the most moving things we can experience (I’ve been to hundreds if not thousands of live shows). — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

6/ But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t engage in thought experiments of what could happen in the future. — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

7/ to clear things up, I am entirely supported by the business I run.

The vast majority of my income comes from tour and it’s been a challenge being off the road. — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

8/ but I love thinking about the future and curious about how new technologies that can reduce the environmental cost of touring, for example. — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

9/ the term obsolete is prob p aggressive, I was just riffing. excited to hear back from you @ZOLAJESUS 🖤 curious if others have opinions. Cc @seanmcarroll ? — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

I would like clarity on the use of the term fascist tho haha — ༺GRIM ≡ﾟS༻ (@Grimezsz) November 23, 2019

i appreciate a good thought experiment, but an unbalanced one can come with consequences. @Grimezsz — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

the lack of nuance and empathy in which you discussed these possible futures on that podcast interview felt like they were coming from someone who has nothing to lose, or doesn’t need to readily interact with possible negative outcomes. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

don’t even get me started on “meditation is boring.” (i disagree!) it seems to me that you’re cynical about art and people’s connections to it but instead of refusing to double down and engage with humanity harder, — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

you’re making the choice to step back and let the more negative aspects of our society and this negative future lead your connection (ai avatar so you don’t have to actually talk to your fans.) it seems entitled and ungrateful, — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

and something that can only be done by someone who doesn’t really want to see a better future with more honest human connection? i say this because all these dangerous narratives make me want to do the opposite of what you seem to want to do about it! — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

which is why i feel like even though bringing up these hypotheticals is a good start, the only alternative you give us is to all become dj’s. and i didn’t train for 10 years to become an opera singer just so i could press fucking play. not everyone wants to be a dj. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

and not everyone makes art just because it will make them money or popular. art does not have to be inextricably linked to wealth and power like it seems you’re focusing on. because for musicians like me, it’s not. — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

i totally agree that AI can and has been used as a tool to make art in beautiful ways. i also agree it’s important to discuss what possible futures are. but art is not always bound to tech innovation. otherwise, why would i train to be an opera singer when microphones exist? — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

oh and @Grimezsz – silicon fascist privilege is the perspective of someone who is silo’d in one percenter neoliberal big tech world they refuse to see how their evangelism of technology is coming from a place of privilege and power. i.e. technofascism for short! — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

not necessarily saying you are that, because i don’t know you and i give the benefit of the doubt that a lot of your dialogue might be role play, but that interview had hard whiffs of technofascism — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

In summer 2018 there was a giant Apple "Behind the Mac" billboard featuring Grimes that loomed over Mile-End in Montreal, the neighborhood where our shared music community used to be located Also this is context for listening to musings about the end of live music & AI supremacy https://t.co/g5mWMu2AeR — Devon Welsh | On Tour in USA! (@devonwelsh) November 23, 2019

technofascism is a legitimate threat in this country and we are already having to fight the unelected and unchecked power of big tech’s impact on our liberties https://t.co/sTfZRwFj5t — ZJ (@ZOLAJESUS) November 23, 2019

When will Holly Herndon weigh in? UPDATE: She did!