Alex Wong/Getty Images Foreign Policy ‘It makes me angry’: Tillerson vents frustrations with Kushner In a six-hour conversation with Capitol Hill aides, Rex Tillerson recounted his rocky tenure at the State Department.

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was having dinner at a local restaurant when the owner came over to tell him that Mexico’s foreign secretary happened to be eating at the same place. Would he like to say hello?

Tillerson was surprised, he recently recounted to congressional aides, because he hadn’t been informed that his Mexican counterpart, Luis Videgaray Caso, was in Washington, D.C. He walked over to find that Jared Kushner, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, was dining with the foreign diplomat.


“I could see the color go out of the face of the foreign secretary of Mexico as I very — I smiled big, and I said: ‘Welcome to Washington,’” Tillerson told the staffers. “And I said: ‘I don’t want to interrupt what y’all are doing.’ I said: ‘Give me a call next time you’re coming to town.’ And I left it at that.”

According to Tillerson, the Mexican diplomat had thought that the secretary of State was fully aware that he was meeting with Kushner. Apparently, however, Kushner hadn’t looped in the State Department.

The anecdote was one of the most vivid that Tillerson shared with bipartisan representatives of the House Foreign Affairs Committee on May 21, according to a partially redacted transcript of the private conversation released Thursday.

The former secretary of State, whom Trump fired in March 2018 after just 14 months on the job, painted a portrait of a presidential administration lacking in internal coordination and cohesion. The discussion touched on everything from Tillerson’s struggle to convince the White House to let him hire people, to his “realist” view of human rights. Tillerson frequently answered questions by saying he couldn’t recall, but overall it was his most extensive personal account to date of his time spent as America’s chief diplomat.

The conversation — which lasted more than six hours, including breaks — occurred with committee staffers. Tillerson also met for about 90 minutes with House Foreign Affairs Chairman Rep. Eliot Engel and ranking member Rep. Mike McCaul. That conversation was not included in the transcript.

Some snippets of the conversation already have been reported, such as Tillerson’s comments that Russian leader Vladimir Putin had out-prepared Trump for meetings, and whether the Russians had manipulated Trump and Tillerson in such sessions. Those earlier reports infuriated Trump, who lashed out on Twitter, calling Tillerson “dumb as a rock.”

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Tillerson spoke very cautiously about Trump himself, avoiding direct criticism. But he effectively confirmed past reports of his tensions with Kushner. He expressed disdain, even anger, toward Kushner and his peripatetic role in crafting U.S. foreign policy, especially when he wouldn’t coordinate with the State Department.

From the start, it was unclear what role Kushner as well his wife, Ivanka — Trump’s daughter — would play in policy making, Tillerson said. That “made it challenging for everyone, I think, in terms of how to deal with any activities that might be undertaken by others that were not defined within the national security process itself,” he said.

Kushner, who has pitched in on everything from U.S. trade policy with Mexico to trying to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, would sometimes travel abroad and not coordinate with the U.S. Embassy where he was going. Tillerson said he raised such issues with Kushner, who promised to “do better.”

“Not much changed,” Tillerson said.

Kushner’s relationship with leaders in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates at times hampered Tillerson’s ability to calm tensions in the Middle East, the former diplomat indicated. That was especially the case in June 2017, when those and other Arab countries decided to sever diplomatic ties with Qatar, a tiny, wealthy Arab state home to a key U.S. military facility.

The moves against Qatar, which eventually bloomed into a full-on economic blockade, surprised Tillerson and other top U.S. officials. But committee staffers told Tillerson they’d been informed that the Saudis and the Emiratis had laid out their plans for Qatar to Kushner and another Trump aide, Steve Bannon, at a dinner weeks earlier, on May 20, 2017.

Tillerson said he’d not heard about that dinner until the committee staffers told him. When asked how that felt, he said: “It makes me angry … because I didn’t have a say. The State Department’s views were never expressed.”

In a statement, the White House pushed back strongly on Tillerson's version of events.

“This story is false and a cheap attempt to rewrite history," said deputy press secretary Hogan Gidley. "The alleged ‘dinner’ to supposedly discuss the blockade never happened, and neither Jared, nor anyone in the White House, was involved in the blockade."

Gidley added: "The White House operated under the belief The Secretary of State at the time, Mr. Tillerson, would and should know what his own team was working on. Jared consistently follows proper protocols with [National Security Council] and the State Department and this instance is no different — as his work with Mexico ultimately lead to the renegotiation of the USMCA trade deal and other bilateral improvements.”

On Russia, Tillerson said he agreed with Trump’s general view that the U.S. needed to improve its relationship with Moscow, and that he tried to convey the need for Moscow and Washington to find some common ground when he met with Putin and other Russian officials.

Although he avoided delving into details about those conversations, and often said he didn’t remember much of what happened, Tillerson insisted that he was up front with Putin about Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, which he said he stated as a fact.

“There were a list of obstacles we went through; but, yes, the election interference was specifically mentioned as creating huge challenges for us here in Washington,” he said, adding later: “I said it just has to stop.”

Putin denied the interference had occurred, Tillerson said.

Tillerson said the White House did not tell him in advance how to frame that issue. Asked about Trump’s general knowledge of Russia, Tillerson said “he was having to learn along the way.”

The former secretary of State also said he did not remember an incident recounted in special counsel Robert Mueller’s report on Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.

While Mueller did not establish a criminal conspiracy between Trump’s campaign and Russia, his lengthy report said Kushner gave Tillerson a copy of a plan for U.S.-Russian reconciliation that had been authored in part by Kirill Dmitriev, chief executive officer of Russia’s sovereign wealth fund.

“I don’t recall ever receiving any such report as described in the Mueller report or any other,” Tillerson said.

Tillerson stood by his past description of Trump as “a man who is pretty undisciplined, doesn’t like to read things, doesn’t read briefing reports, doesn’t like to get into the details of lots of things.” Trump also often had a pre-set stance on issues, and he indicated to aides that they would have to convince him he was wrong but that they were not likely to succeed, Tillerson said.

The former diplomat said he wasn’t speaking pejoratively of Trump when he described him in such a manner, but that he realized he had to adjust to the president’s “style.”

That meant being extremely concise in presenting information to Trump. Still, it “never deterred me or anyone at the State Department, to my knowledge, from putting forth the best view we thought we could put together,” he said.

Tillerson also clarified earlier public comments he’d made about how Trump would often seek solutions to policy problems that were legally problematic.

“The president never asked me to violate the law,” he told the committee representatives, adding that Trump was simply on a steep learning curve. “He was very action oriented: Get it done, get it done, get it done. And so just sometimes you had to say: ‘We can’t do that.’”

Trump never referred to his personal or family business in relation to foreign policy, nor did he give indications that those were factors in his thinking on such matters, Tillerson said. He answered several questions about other characters in the Trump orbit whose business activities and overseas links have raised suspicions, such as Elliott Broidy, by saying he didn’t know them.

The former secretary repeatedly sidestepped questions about Trump’s apparent affinity for authoritarian leaders such as Putin. He also declined to discuss reports that he’d once called Trump a “moron” behind his back. He’s never denied doing so, however.

“He was very action oriented: Get it done, get it done, get it done," former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said about President Donald Trump. | Mark Wilson/Getty Images

Pressed on why the Trump administration seemed often absent on promoting human rights and democracy, Tillerson argued that it really acted no differently that previous presidential administration. He described himself as a “realist” on human rights — he believes in their importance but doesn’t think harping on the topic always advances the cause long-term.

“Sometimes going in and just pounding the table over that issue, [other countries] just shut down. They just ignore you. They say ‘Just go away. You are of no use to me,’” he said.

Asked if he could describe Trump’s value system, Tillerson said “No, I can’t.” One of his lawyers then shifted the conversation away from further questioning on that point.

A State Department lawyer was present during the interview with the House committee staffers — the department requested a presence and Tillerson said he was amenable to the idea. Tillerson brought at least two attorneys of his own. The committee’s lawyers noted that he was required by law to answer the questions truthfully. The redacted portions of the transcript were done so at either State or Tillerson's request.

Engel, the committee chairman, has previously described Tillerson’s meeting with him and McCaul as “heartening” given Trump’s efforts to prevent other aides and former aides from talking to lawmakers trying to investigate the president.

Tillerson told the committee representatives that he had been looking forward to retiring from ExxonMobil and spending time with his grandchildren when Trump offered him the chance to serve as secretary of State. He met with Trump about the role after initially ignoring calls from the then-president-elect’s transition staffers in the weeks after the 2016 election.

He agreed to see Trump only hearing from Mike Pence, then the vice president-elect. “I said: ‘Well, I will take that call,’” Tillerson told the committee. Pence told him that, because of his relationships with many heads of state due to his role at ExxonMobil, Trump wanted to talk to him about global affairs.

Tillerson, who had met with past presidents to talk about such issues, agreed to meet Trump if he could do so discreetly. He refused to go “through the gold-gilded lobby of the Trump Tower because that was the revolving door of everybody that was interviewing for a job. … So I went up through a residential entrance.”

Kushner and two other Trump aides, Bannon and Reince Priebus, sat in on Tillerson’s meeting with Trump, which he recalled as being in early December 2016. During the session, Tillerson walked Trump through major world regions and spoke about U.S. challenges in each.

One example he mentioned raising with Trump was the effect international sanctions on Russia — he appeared to be alluding to penalties imposed after Moscow invaded Ukraine — were having on other countries who did business there.

“We talked about the challenges that had been created by the Russian sanctions for the Europeans because it was — it had had a greater effect on them than it had on most American businesses,” he said.

Neither Trump nor the president-elect’s aides asked many questions during the meeting, Tillerson said. But in the latter stages, Trump “went into a bit of a sales pitch and asked me to be the secretary of State, and I was stunned.”

Tillerson indicated that he had thought Trump had other people in mind for the role. He asked Trump for a few days to talk to ExxonMobil and his family, and before agreeing to take the job, he met with Trump again in person to ask three questions. He declined to tell the committee representatives what those questions or Trump’s answers were, however.

Tillerson had a rocky tenure at State. He disagreed with Trump on major issues, such as how to deal with Iran. Tillerson also alienated many U.S. diplomats by shutting them out of the decision-making process, imposing a hiring freeze and trying to push through a redesign of the department.

Tillerson said he grew frustrated with the White House for blocking him from naming certain people to top spots at State for reasons he felt were not satisfactory. He had thought he’d had more freedom to pick his aides. But months went on and numerous positions were left open.

“If people signed the ‘Never Trump’ letter, that would oftentimes disqualify them,” he recalled. “If they had tweeted something or retweeted something that the White House office thought was inappropriate, then that might disqualify them. If they had a spouse that might have supported the other candidate, that would disqualify them.”

The process “never did work smoothly,” he said.

He also said he tried to prevent the White House from proposing massive cuts to the State Department’s budget, although he said that he would have liked to see some significant budget reductions because he thought the existing spending was too bloated.

Asked about his attempt to redesign the State Department, Tillerson said the biggest obstacle to the largely unsuccessful effort were older, senior-level staffers who “don’t want anybody moving their cheese.” Tillerson also said it was his decision to dramatically reduce media access to the department, including cutting down the number of press briefings.

Tillerson told his interviewers that he was grateful to Trump for the opportunity to serve as secretary of State, and he repeatedly praised the career diplomats who work at State. He also sounded a note of modesty.

“In retrospect, the experience was both humbling and inspiring, and it will always be the great honor of my life,” he said.