TheSwagger Profile Joined June 2012 United States 92 Posts Last Edited: 2013-03-18 23:34:41 #1 modedit: Renamed thread as requested from "[D] Widow Mine too random?"



*Please see the update below this portion of the post*



I've been watching the Winter Championship like a lot of other players and fans and I cant help but come to the conclusion that widow mines are just not predictable enough to rely on. I think they are incredibly random, especially in the final 4 matches of Life vs Flash, I mean the widow mines were performing pathetically, and I may even go as far to say, embarrassingly bad. Let's stay away from the "Well flash should have been doing XXXX..." The point is, we are discussing widow mines and their efficacy, specifically in tournament play It seems to me there were so many occasions in this tournament where widow mines were used where they just performed exactly how you would not want them to; attacking the one isolated zergling in the back of the group, or the astray unit, etc and suddenly you find yourself at the mercy of a cooldown on a unit that should be more predictable, at least in my opinion. I'm very curious for other players to chime in on this after seeing them used extensively in the Winter Championship.





-Honorable mention, I did not once see Flash research drilling claws, which was very surprising to me, considering the fact he used them so often. However, this has no effect on their targeting/prioritizing.





Important update regarding the mechanics of the Widowmine, thanks to Zelniq, Morrow, DeCoup and so many others from within the community for some testing.





******The way that Widow Mines operate including its manipulation via manual targeting is described below******







- Standard burrow time is 3 seconds, with the drilling claws upgrade at the factory (armory required) Burrowing is reduced down to a 1 second burrow time.



- A Widow Mine will attack a target on its own, or by manually selecting a target within its range.



- The automatic attack proccess is as follows: After the Widow Mine has completed burrowing, the nearest visible enemy unit within the boundaries of its strict 5 range will be targeted. If that enemy leaves, it retargets, and the attack 1.5 second attack process starts over. It will not automatically target hallucinations or changelings



- The process from lock-on to fire is 1.5 game seconds . In order for it to execute its attack the enemy needs to remain in range until the end of the 1.5 preparatory period. This period can only begin after the Widow Mine has completed the burrowing animation.



- During this time you may manually change targets . With at least one mine is selected, right click on a nearby enemy unit that is within its 5 range during 1.5 second preparatory period; by successfully doing this the timer will reset on its new target , and once the new 1.5 seconds is complete it will fire at the new designated target.



- if you keep changing targets before the second is up it will never fire (this is described as "hold fire micro" - this is important - do not click like a mad man on a bunch of different units because they will never fire. You can, however, do this strategically to prevent premature detonation, if you're comfortable controlling them under those circumstances.)



- The Widow Mine has no "range extra" This essentially means that a unit must be within its 5 range. Certain other units in the game have a bonus range of 1 "range extra" so that if an enemy unit touches the fringe of the perimeter, it will be attacked. To clarify, the widow mine will not do this and it is mechanically clarified in a few moments.



- If you stop using hold micro all selected mines will fire at the last targeted unit simultaneously.



- If a targeted unit is out of range the mine will auto-acquire a new target in range. This will reset the aim timer.



- The whole time a mine is aquiring a target it is visible (but not attackable) by your opponent.



-This means a discerning player may be able to tell you are specifically witholding the attack.



- When an enemy unit approaches the mine and touches the fringe of its radius, it becomes visible, during this time the unit can retreat and successfully not trip the mine.







-TheSwagger The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

gabsonuro Profile Joined July 2012 24 Posts #2 i also was puzzled at the game 6 on daybreak when life moved his whole army of about 50 lings and 10 mutas over about 3 mines, and literally like 10 zerglings died tops and then easily cleaned up flashes army.

bri9and Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 246 Posts #3 I was thinking the exact same thing and found this thread while searching before I was going to make a post.



The widow mine is entirely too random and is subsequently being beaten with AI exploitation. During the Flash v Life game, control of the mine targeting would have turned the tide in Flash's favor because he would have the micro to actually do it and do it well.. I don't understand why they cannot be controlled.. I don't have time to play with myself

rza Profile Joined June 2010 Canada 373 Posts #4 definitly too random, sometime it kill 20 ling with 1 shot and sometime it does nothing o.o Until my death, my goal's to stay alive.

Aelfric Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Turkey 1293 Posts Last Edited: 2013-03-18 01:24:17 #5 On March 18 2013 10:20 gabsonuro wrote:

i also was puzzled at the game 6 on daybreak when life moved his whole army of about 50 lings and 10 mutas over about 3 mines, and literally like 10 zerglings died tops and then easily cleaned up flashes army.

It's probably because they aimed air instead of ground and when it target air units it doesn't do damage to ground. Same other way arround.



Second possibility is the army left the range of mines way too fast that the game might have stopped it to avoid glitching. It's probably because they aimed air instead of ground and when it target air units it doesn't do damage to ground. Same other way arround.Second possibility is the army left the range of mines way too fast that the game might have stopped it to avoid glitching. Tomorrow never comes until its too late...

TheSwagger Profile Joined June 2012 United States 92 Posts #6 It was literally painful every match. Think of Neo Planet S (medium map, circular shape with no Xel Naga towers) and the engagements of the widow mines were so bad every time. It seems to me with the quantity that Flash had in several of his matches, like others have noted, it just "feels like more damage should have happened" if you will. The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

Nahsom Profile Joined September 2010 Austria 296 Posts #7 On March 18 2013 10:22 bri9and wrote:

I was thinking the exact same thing and found this thread while searching before I was going to make a post.



The widow mine is entirely too random and is subsequently being beaten with AI exploitation. During the Flash v Life game, control of the mine targeting would have turned the tide in Flash's favor because he would have the micro to actually do it and do it well.. I don't understand why they cannot be controlled..



You can targetfire with them. Cant you? You can targetfire with them. Cant you?

TheSwagger Profile Joined June 2012 United States 92 Posts #8 On March 18 2013 10:23 Aelfric wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 18 2013 10:20 gabsonuro wrote:

i also was puzzled at the game 6 on daybreak when life moved his whole army of about 50 lings and 10 mutas over about 3 mines, and literally like 10 zerglings died tops and then easily cleaned up flashes army.

It's probably because they aimed air instead of ground and when it target air units it doesn't do damage to ground. Same other way arround.



Second possibility is the army left the range of mines way too fast that the game might have stopped it to avoid glitching. It's probably because they aimed air instead of ground and when it target air units it doesn't do damage to ground. Same other way arround.Second possibility is the army left the range of mines way too fast that the game might have stopped it to avoid glitching.





Actually, quite the contrary, the splash damage from an air unit will affect ground units below it. However, I am not sure about the opposite; the widow mine attacking a ground unit and whether or not if affects any air units above it. I would presume the answer is yes, but I'm curious if anyone knows definitively. Actually, quite the contrary, the splash damage from an air unit will affect ground units below it. However, I am not sure about the opposite; the widow mine attacking a ground unit and whether or not if affects any air units above it. I would presume the answer is yes, but I'm curious if anyone knows definitively. The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

bri9and Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 246 Posts #9 On March 18 2013 10:26 Nahsom wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 18 2013 10:22 bri9and wrote:

I was thinking the exact same thing and found this thread while searching before I was going to make a post.



The widow mine is entirely too random and is subsequently being beaten with AI exploitation. During the Flash v Life game, control of the mine targeting would have turned the tide in Flash's favor because he would have the micro to actually do it and do it well.. I don't understand why they cannot be controlled..



You can targetfire with them. Cant you? You can targetfire with them. Cant you?



No.. That is the problem No.. That is the problem I don't have time to play with myself

Zelniq Profile Blog Joined August 2005 United States 7141 Posts Last Edited: 2013-03-18 01:53:11 #10

edit: yeah if you want to kill a billion units and not make it random at all (which btw it's not, it's just like how any other unit chooses targets when on autoattack). so for example if life had a few lings separated from the rest of his huge pack out in front to tank mine hits, if flash just targeted the bigger clump by right clicking them it would have targeted those instead and killed a billion lings. as I said in another thread, the game just came out and flash had hardly any time to prepare for it..he admitted as much in an interview. he also didnt get to play beta much with his busy schedule



yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, when the target is in range. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..



Moderator Blame yourself or God

avilo Profile Blog Joined November 2007 United States 4099 Posts #11 On March 18 2013 10:42 Zelniq wrote:

yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, at certain times when the target is in range or something. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..



No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.



As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.



Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.



So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit. No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit. Sup

iAmJeffReY Profile Joined August 2010 United States 4262 Posts #12 On March 18 2013 10:42 Zelniq wrote:

yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, at certain times when the target is in range or something. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..

I think this is spot on. The projectile speed can't catch up so certain units pass by, so it has to hit a unit further back in its range, that will still be in range by the time the projectile hits. I think this is spot on. The projectile speed can't catch up so certain units pass by, so it has to hit a unit further back in its range, that will still be in range by the time the projectile hits. Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19832 Posts #13 I think there should be a lot shorter delay before they fire and you should be able to control them better in terms of auto attack or not auto attack, or at least have focus fire capability if they are forced to fire on enemy targets entering range. "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

Crowned Profile Joined August 2011 United States 368 Posts #14 I feel like they are too unreliable. I don't like to put my game in the hands of something so random. It's cool to love to win, but it's better to hate to lose.

Zelniq Profile Blog Joined August 2005 United States 7141 Posts #15 On March 18 2013 10:49 avilo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 18 2013 10:42 Zelniq wrote:

yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, at certain times when the target is in range or something. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..



No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.



As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.



Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.



So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit. No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit.

just tested it many times, targeting definitely works every single time. just tested it many times, targeting definitely works every single time. Moderator Blame yourself or God

bri9and Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 246 Posts #16 Zelniq thanks for clarifying that, I thought they left it disabled... that was my gripe, gg. I don't have time to play with myself

avilo Profile Blog Joined November 2007 United States 4099 Posts #17 On March 18 2013 10:55 Zelniq wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 18 2013 10:49 avilo wrote:

On March 18 2013 10:42 Zelniq wrote:

yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, at certain times when the target is in range or something. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..



No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.



As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.



Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.



So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit. No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit.

just tested it many times, targeting definitely works every single time. just tested it many times, targeting definitely works every single time.



With right clicking? I'm fairly sure this does not work anymore, it "acquires" a target on it's own, I have not been able to manually target anything with mines. But i'll test it out later and check it out again. With right clicking? I'm fairly sure this does not work anymore, it "acquires" a target on it's own, I have not been able to manually target anything with mines. But i'll test it out later and check it out again. Sup

DeCoup Profile Joined September 2006 Australia 1933 Posts #18 On March 18 2013 10:27 bri9and wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 18 2013 10:26 Nahsom wrote:

On March 18 2013 10:22 bri9and wrote:

I was thinking the exact same thing and found this thread while searching before I was going to make a post.



The widow mine is entirely too random and is subsequently being beaten with AI exploitation. During the Flash v Life game, control of the mine targeting would have turned the tide in Flash's favor because he would have the micro to actually do it and do it well.. I don't understand why they cannot be controlled..



You can targetfire with them. Cant you? You can targetfire with them. Cant you?



No.. That is the problem No.. That is the problem

yes you can. You can use micro to prevent them from detonating by constantly changing targets and you can choose a target to hit. You can even use this to make multiple mines simultaneously hit 1 target (eg make 2 mines fire at a single overseer at the same time). People are just not aware of this fact. yes you can. You can use micro to prevent them from detonating by constantly changing targets and you can choose a target to hit. You can even use this to make multiple mines simultaneously hit 1 target (eg make 2 mines fire at a single overseer at the same time). People are just not aware of this fact. "Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA

TheSwagger Profile Joined June 2012 United States 92 Posts #19 On March 18 2013 10:49 avilo wrote:

+ Show Spoiler + On March 18 2013 10:42 Zelniq wrote:

yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, at certain times when the target is in range or something. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..



No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.



As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.



Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.



So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit. No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit.







Thats exactly the randomness I'm describing. For example, If four zerglings walk into the widowmine trigger area at roughly the same time its a complete crapshoot which one is going to be targeted for both parties.







On March 18 2013 10:55 Zelniq wrote:

+ Show Spoiler + On March 18 2013 10:49 avilo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 18 2013 10:42 Zelniq wrote:

yeah actually you can targetfire with them I heard, at certain times when the target is in range or something. also I don't think it's random, it just feels/looks that way. if you study it closer or just get more experienced with it, you'll get the feel of how it works I think. it has an unusual, unique ai, but I don't think it's random.



I'm going to test it some right now in the unit tester, I suspect the strange detonations have to do with the speed of the speedlings just zooming on by them..



No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.



As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.



Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.



So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit. No you cannot target fire with them. They removed that capability.As for the detonations, they are more or less completely random in the sense that whichever unit appears closest to the widow mine at first at the moment it burrows will be targeted, but if there are a huge number of targets within roughly the same distance from the widow mine you have almost no clue which will be targetted.Also very fast units like speedlings can run out of the activation range of the mine if they are on the very fringe of the detonation radius, which then adds on to the randomness because the initial ling targetted becomes untargetted and the mine reacquires a closer target out of the 5000 lings/units there which you have no idea which one it is because there is no indicator.So, it basically is more or less random in the end because there's no way the human eye can track which unit first comes into the mine's activation radius and if the unit leaves the activation radius with 30 other units entering it shortly after it's impossible to tell what unit is targetted, both visually and in terms of what it's coded to hit.

just tested it many times, targeting definitely works every single time. just tested it many times, targeting definitely works every single time.

+ Show Spoiler +



Which unit tester are you using? I tried about 5 different testers in the arcade by searching "unit test" and all of them didnt even let me use a widow mine, so it would be nice to know which one officially is the "go-to" for some hots testing. Thats exactly the randomness I'm describing. For example, If four zerglings walk into the widowmine trigger area at roughly the same time its a complete crapshoot which one is going to be targeted for both parties.Which unit tester are you using? I tried about 5 different testers in the arcade by searching "unit test" and all of them didnt even let me use a widow mine, so it would be nice to know which one officially is the "go-to" for some hots testing. The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

Zelniq Profile Blog Joined August 2005 United States 7141 Posts Last Edited: 2013-03-18 02:23:43 #20 further testing indicates a couple of things:



if an enemy unit wanders in range but exits the range (range of 5) within less than ~2 ingame seconds, the mine doesn't fire, same thing goes for multiple units..if 10 lings enter but leave the radius before the ~2 seconds, it doesn't fire. If it's there for ~2+ seconds it does. So for an idea of what that's like, the magic ~2 second time that it won't set the mine off is a speedling off creep that's moving across the edge of the circle's range of a mine, as if you were slicing the end of an orange.



The target unit's speed is irrelevant, a queen off creep can wander in, spot the mine and leave without getting hit if it leaves the radius fast enough. (btw even without detection, the mine reveals itself when I think you wander in its range. reveals its location, but doesn't allow you to attack it, similar to units you can't see that's on higher ground, that shoot you)



@Swagger: search "hots unit tester online" in arcade. it uses whatever the current state of the game is, as in say the unlisted change that occured within last few days where mothership core's recall is canceled if the mothership core dies during the recall Moderator Blame yourself or God

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