Nielsen testifies: ‘I did not hear’ Trump say ‘shithole’ The Homeland Security secretary was peppered with tough questions from senators about the president’s immigration remarks.

Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen testified Tuesday that she did not hear President Donald Trump refer to African nations as “shithole” countries — remarks he reportedly made last week that triggered an international uproar and roiled ongoing immigration talks on Capitol Hill.

The profane comments, confirmed by Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) and multiple sources, were not disputed by White House officials immediately after they were reported by the Washington Post and other news outlets. But in the days since, Trump has denied specifically using that phrase, though he has stressed that he did use “tough” language.


“I did not hear that word used, no sir,” Nielsen said at a hearing under questioning from Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.). Asked whether Trump used a similar word, the DHS chief responded: “The conversation was very impassioned. I don’t dispute that the president was using tough language. Others in the room were also using tough language.”

Trump’s remarks, during a meeting with Durbin and other lawmakers at the White House, came when Trump was expressing his desire to shift the nation’s immigration system into one based on merit, Nielsen said.

"He’d like to move away from a country-based quota system to a merit-based system," Nielsen said, explaining Trump's intent. "It shouldn’t matter where you’re from, it should matter what you can contribute to the United States."

The profane comments have consumed Washington the last few days, as lawmakers and the White House struggle to devise an agreement to help "Dreamers" who will lose legal protections after Trump rescinded an Obama-era executive action.

A court order has forced the administration to temporarily begin accepting renewal applications for the program, called Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. The Justice Department said Monday that it will the appeal the decision to the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and will also ask for immediate review from the Supreme Court.

The remarks also dominated Nielsen's appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which was scheduled before the comments were reported late last week and was meant to serve as a routine oversight hearing. One Democrat after another pressed Nielsen on Trump's reported comments, and she repeatedly dodged, saying she didn't recall if "shithole" specifically — or other variations, such as "shithouse" — was used.

"I actually was struck more by the fact that the conversation, although passionate and appropriately so, had gotten to a place where many people in the room were using inappropriate language in the Oval Office, in front of the president," Nielsen said. "That’s what struck me."

Durbin, one of two members of the committee who attended the White House confab, delved into the deepest specifics of the meeting. The Illinois Democrat disclosed that Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) pushed back at Trump after the president allegedly used the "shithole" remarks, telling the president that his ancestors did not immigrate to the United States with significant merit or wealth.

"His strong words repeated exactly the words used by the president, which you cannot remember," Durbin told Nielsen.

Nielsen acknowledged: "I did hear tough language from Sen. Graham. He used tough language."

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Graham himself shed more light on last Thursday's meeting, which came two days after a televised strategy session the president held with lawmakers at the White House that was praised as productive by both Democrats and Republicans. The South Carolina Republican suggested there were dueling personalities at play last week: "The Tuesday Trump and the Thursday Trump."

During the hearing, Graham said that Durbin and Trump spoke privately around 10 a.m. and that after the phone call with Trump, Durbin told him, "I had the best conversation with the president. We need to follow up on it." Graham said he would call the White House and set up a midday meeting to present the bipartisan immigration plan devised by six senators after months of closed-door negotiations.

However, once Graham and Durbin arrived, they found several other lawmakers at the White House, including Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) and GOP Sens. Tom Cotton of Arkansas and David Perdue of Georgia — conservatives who have endorsed more hard-line policies on immigration.

"What happened between 10 and 12?" Graham wondered aloud. "I am going to find out and I am not going to ask you, because between 10 and 12 we went from having conversations between Sen. Durbin — which I believe every word — and the president that was very hopeful and by the time we got there something had happened."

Graham said that on Tuesday, "we had a president that I was proud to golf with, call my friend, who understood immigration had to be bipartisan."

"I don't know where that guy went," Graham said. "I want him back."

The senator went into more detail with reporters outside the hearing, specifically pointing the finger at White House aides.

“Somehow by 12 o' clock on Thursday, something happened and I don’t think he was well served by his staff," Graham told reporters. "But he's responsible for the way he conducts himself, so am I, can't blame that on his staff."

The alleged profanity wasn't the only Trump comment that Nielsen was forced to repeatedly explain during the hearing.

Earlier, Leahy also pressed Nielsen on Trump’s reported remark that he would like more immigrants from Norway, rather than from Africa and Haiti. Nielsen responded: “I don’t believe he said that specifically.”

“What he was referencing is from the merit-based perspective, we’d like to have those who have skills, who can assimilate and contribute to the United States,” she said.

When Leahy asked Nielsen whether Norway is a predominantly white country, the secretary deflected: “I actually do not know that, sir, but I imagine that is the case."

Later in the exchange with Durbin, Nielsen elaborated on the Norway comments when Durbin asserted that Trump said he wanted more European immigrants in the United States. Nielsen said Trump was asking more about the concept of removing the diversity lottery and reallocating the visas doled out in the program.

"I do remember him asking if we do that, and we then assign those to countries that are un-represented, aren’t we just continuing non-merit based immigration?" Nielsen said. "From that perspective, I think he did ask, would that cover European countries or by its nature would that mean we are further establishing immigration to purposely exclude Europeans?"

At some points during the hearing, Democrats clearly lost patience with Nielsen's responses. "Your silence and amnesia is complicit," Sen. Cory Booker (D-N.J.), who recently joined the Judiciary Committee, told the Homeland chief.