EXCLUSIVE: Jonny and Woodward reunited... 10 years after World Cup triumph: Winning that final was the problem with my career... I've never watched a replay of that winning kick against Australia



Ten years after winning the World Cup for England, Jonny Wilkinson bares his soul to Sir Clive Woodward in an astonishing interview.

SIR CLIVE WOODWARD: Jonny, it’s 10 years already since that World Cup final! But for both of us the long journey to Sydney started six years earlier. You don’t know this but I first watched you play at Bisham Abbey with the unbeaten England schoolboys’ team in 1997. I’d just got the job and I came to watch you play.

JONNY WILKINSON: Really? We were never told the new England coach was coming...



Head to head: Clive Woodward and Jonny Wilkinson relive the memories of England's World Cup win in 2003 Good to talk: Woodward and Wilkinson masterminded England's win over Australia 10 years ago

WOODWARD: You wouldn’t have known who I was! But you came into the senior set-up six months after that. You were an 18-year-old without any caps… six years later you swung your wrong foot to drop the goal that won the World Cup.



WILKINSON: It sounds simple, doesn’t it? I was very fortunate that at that young age I had a huge amount of security and support around me. The security was not ‘you’re going to play every game’ but being put in a situation where my development and confidence was of huge concern.



WOODWARD: People forget how daunting it is for a young man to walk into the England changing room, do you remember doing it?



WILKINSON: You never forget. I walked in and saw Martin Johnson’s intimidating frown and thought: ‘They hate me’. But at the same time, Johnno had that face in 2003 and I think he liked me by then! I was brought in during the 1998 Five Nations. I watched you guys smash Wales and thought: ‘Great, I’ll be doing a lot of watching because they certainly don’t need me!’ Then came Ireland. There wasn’t long to go when somebody called me over, ‘Jonny, get back to the bench, you’re needed’. I’m glad it happened that quickly: I ran over, heart pounding, and took my jacket off. I just stood on the wing for five minutes — it was perfect!

Waiting game: Wilkinson prepares to make his England debut against Ireland in April 1998

WOODWARD: During the week you used to sit at the back of the class, not saying anything. I told you I needed you at the front, presenting on this and that, talking. At the time I was tough on you because I needed my quarterback to lead. You know you’ve got a good group of players but you’re trying to produce something special. Did you feel that?



WILKINSON: Absolutely. I had no frame of reference, I only knew your England, but the whole thing fuelled itself — there was a depth of thought and an emphasis of getting the right people to do the right jobs. The No 1 reason behind the success in Australia was the culture that was created. The idea was to look after everyone enough to ensure that all the most technical and intimidating parts of the game became instinctive and natural. You put the codes and rules in place but then it was driven by the players. Even for team meetings, it wasn’t a case of ‘I don’t want to be late,’ it was a case of ‘I can’t bear to be late’.



WOODWARD: Anything less than 10 minutes early was late on England time! But it was the players who agreed to all that and there were hundreds of similar things. My ultimate plan was that if every individual could become the best player in the world in their position, a real superstar player, then the team would become a great team. So we brought in specialists for every individual and for every element of the game, from peripheral vision to tackling technique to footwork.



WILKINSON: That balance is the golden ticket — finding the line between the coach directing but also empowering the players. I want to go on to the pitch with a plan, then the empowerment part is me working out what to do with that plan once it comes under fire. I liked the fact that five years down the line I was still being told on a Tuesday how to tackle properly. You gave us the weaponry to attack the game.



Training days: Woodward and Wilkinson discuss tactics ahead of an England game

WOODWARD: Do you remember those ‘murderball’ sessions? Full-on defensive drills for a set time. I used to absolutely hate them because I wanted everyone fit and I had a real row with Phil Larder (the defence coach) over you. I said we could do ‘murderball’ but I wanted you in a yellow bib. I even physically put you in the bib. You were quite stressed about it, you hate special treatment, but I said: ‘No, I’m head coach, you’re wearing the bib’. I walked away thinking ‘that showed him’, but of course I turn around, see the bib on the floor 20 yards away and you go and smash a forward. It was a seminal moment that summed you up.

WILKINSON: But now I’d want to wear the yellow bib! It makes sense. I look back now and think: I was playing against my friends, in the same team, and I was trying to smash them. If you called a ‘murderball’ session tomorrow, I’d be the first guy in your ear to say: ‘Listen, if you want me fit on Saturday, you better leave me out ’.

WOODWARD: There was one match that stands out for me in the build-up to 2003. It was against the French in the Six Nations. We got beaten and I was furious. You hit 25-plus rucks — a ridiculous work-rate — but I had to sit you down and say: ‘Jonny, you’re the fly-half, we don’t need you fighting, rucking, smashing people. We need you in the line.’ You are the ultimate team player, it is in your DNA, but what I had to get across to you was that for the sake of the team they didn’t need you to be throwing yourself into every ruck. It was a very significant moment. Was there a similar tipping point for you?

Main man: Wilkinson scored five penalties, a conversion and a drop goal as England beat France in 2003

WILKINSON: I felt something building when we went Down Under in the summer of ’99 to play the Centenary game in Australia. They were a big team and a good team but I remember feeling in control, knowing if we got off to a good start, there was no reason why we would lose. And it started to build from there. They came over a year later and Dan Luger scored in the corner in the last minute. It was like the Roger Bannister four-minute mile — it was our marker towards the World Cup.

WOODWARD: Earlier that year, after we lost the Grand Slam up in Murrayfield, we spent a long time reinforcing the mantra: ‘It only takes 20 seconds to score’. That Australia match summed it up with spooky precision. It wasn’t just the winning, it was that everybody held their cool.

WILKINSON: There’s another spooky story. I remember a meeting, years before 2003, and you came over to where I was sat with Mike Catt and asked me: ‘If you set up for a drop goal every time you went into the opposition territory, how many points could you feasibly score?’ I was trying to add the threes up in my head, at which point Catty chirps up with ‘How many “f”s are there in bothered?’ I looked at him and laughed but the point stuck: drop goals can win games.

Axis: Wilkinson with Mike Catt after the World Cup

WOODWARD: Rightly or wrongly, I always compare teams to that 2003 team. Our 10-12 axis was amazing — you working alongside Mike Catt or Will Greenwood, who were such good talkers. We had an explosive back three and a celebrated back row, but another key element was the supreme ability of our tight-five forwards. Woodman, Thompson, Vickery were big and tough but they could really run and pass the ball and that’s traditionally a very un-English thing to do.

WILKINSON: Catty and Greenwood were certainly great talkers — if they were here now we wouldn’t get a word in! But that communication was the key. I remember coming off the pitch at Twickenham and doing TV interviews with the media being very flattering and I was feeling like a fraud, thinking: ‘Are you kidding me? I’m not a genius — I just heard someone say give him the ball, so I gave him the ball!’ My best-looking games were when someone was in my ear for 80 minutes telling me what to do, whereas my actual best games were when it was backs to the wall, dogging it out, coming up with something.

WOODWARD: For me it always came down to pressure and my aim was always to build a team that could withstand anything and keep their composure. The most pressurised week I remember was the build-up to our opening game of the World Cup against South Africa. I thought if we won then, we would make the final and I’ve never seen more tension in the whole team than that week.

WILKINSON: For me, pressure was half-time against Wales in the quarter-finals (Wales were leading 10-3). It was one of the worst feelings I’ve ever had in a changing room. But talking about it now it feels like one of the best because I’ve never felt anything more intense than that team talk.



Everybody thinking: this isn’t supposed to be happening, this cannot finish now. Half the guys want to scream and shout, half are speechless, but it was an intensive, organised re-gathering.

Even the structure of half-time was meticulous. Two minutes to get your kit, then into groups: who would talk when and what about. When it really counts, that structure really means something.

Relief: England almost came unstuck against Wales in the World Cup quarter-finals before edging through



WOODWARD: The week building up to the final was decidedly calm. The night before the final the locals were tooting horns and singing until the early hours, screaming ‘Aussie, Aussie, Aussie’ and wearing T-shirts with ‘Keep Jonny Awake’.

WILKINSON: My over-riding memory of the build-up was the wall of white every time we left the hotel. When you travel abroad supporters wear the colours, so half of Manly felt English and we were cheered whenever we walked on to the coach for training.

WOODWARD: On the day of the final I woke up ridiculously early and went for a walk on the beach on my own at 5.30am. The breakfast routine was normal and we did that line-out session on Manly beach which got a huge crowd. I went out for lunch with some friends on Manly pier but was quickly surrounded by supporters asking me what on earth I was doing. I said: ‘Where do you want me to be — kick-off isn’t for seven hours!’ We got on the coach a little earlier than usual because it was a long journey. It was an unusually cold night for November in Australia and the difference with the warm-up for a World Cup final is that everyone is already in their seats.

WILKINSON: I remember a huge amount from that night but for me it’s an emotional memory. I can recall all the action, but what I remember is what it felt like at the time. The changing room beforehand was both incredibly calm and incredibly tense, everybody going through their usual habits. Then came the warm-up in front of a packed house and the anthems. I remember the images, what everything looked like, but how I remember them is by recalling the senses — the sight, the sound, the smell, the feel of everything that happened in that game. There were certainly ups and downs. We conceded that early try after only six minutes, to Lote Tuqiri, but we stayed totally calm. The scrums went against us and we just couldn’t get two scores ahead.

Setback: Lote Tuqiri scored an early try for Australia in the World Cup final against England

Pinged: England were consistently penalised in the scrum as they battled with Australia in the final

WOODWARD: We played well. The scrum was annoyingly me intensely — we were the stronger pack but being endlessly pinged — but it isn’t the time to throw your toys out of the pram. Half-time was calm — it was just about reinforcing messages. The problem is the referee stopped us really playing, because the scrum sets up your attack. The big call was bringing on Jason Leonard and I only did that to sort out the scrums. The first thing he did was put his arm round Andre Watson, saying: ‘Listen, I’m the best scrummager on the planet, there will be no more problems’. He deserves a huge amount of credit. As coaches we weren’t allowed on the touchline, but with seconds to go I saw (Australia coach) Eddie Jones on the side, so I was out of my seat and legging it downstairs.

By the time I’m down it was the full-time whistle (score: Australia 14 England 14) and the guys had gone into a huddle. Johnno gave his speech and I knew he would be saying the right things — that this was not about emotion but thinking correctly under intense pressure in a 30-minute match. But you didn’t go into the huddle. I saw you go and practise your kicking but I wanted a quick word with you. I walked over and said: ‘Jonny, just to say we’ve got to play down their half, you’ve got another great kicker in Catty with you now, just kick and keep the ball down there.’ You looked at me and said…

WILKINSON: ‘No s***!’

Pep talk: Woodward had a chat with Wilkinson before the start of extra time in the World Cup final

WOODWARD:You apologised for swearing afterwards. I just remember smiling at the time. You were in control and I knew the whole team would be in control because of the amount of time we had spent talking about this exact situation. So I went up to Johnno and said: ‘This is going to be won by a penalty or a drop goal, so keep kicking’. The other spooky thing is where you were practising from, which is quite far out for you. It’s exactly the spot where you kicked a penalty two minutes later at the start of extra time.

WILKINSON: I first went into that extra-time huddle but I just couldn’t handle it. We’re in a World Cup final, we’ve got two minutes until extra time and we’re doing a huddle on the pitch. Next I was expecting somebody to run out with the oranges! I thought, ‘I can’t do this’. All I ever had in my head was exactly what you said. I’d already missed a few drop goals and I knew that, more than likely, it would fall on my shoulders. I’m thinking: ‘Seven years you’ve been telling me this, I’ve got it!’

WOODWARD: Towards the end of extra time, Lewis Moody nearly charged down a kick by Matt Rogers and he ended up slicing his punt. We have one line-out left and it all comes down to ‘zig zig’ — the drop goal routine we’d planned for years. The mindset is to score between the posts. You don’t go wide, you just keep punching forward, left and right of the ruck. Keep the ball in the channel in the middle of the pitch. Ben Kay saw Moody unmarked at the back and brilliantly changed the line-out call.

WILKINSON: Quite often, when I make a call, I’ll also be running through with everyone what they have to do. I’ll turn to the centre, the winger and talk them through, even though they know. Yet with that one play, the most important play I’ve had in my career, we called it once and I didn’t say anything to Mike Catt, I didn’t say anything to the forwards. Everyone just did it. All the key lessons from the last six years came down to that moment. Under the most severe pressure is normally when teams fall apart but that one play summed up everything. Even after I struck that drop goal I was checking to see if the referee had given a penalty for anything before the ball went over.

Lift off: Wilkinson takes the drop kick that would win the World Cup and seal his place in the history books

WOODWARD: I wasn’t watching you. I was watching everybody else. The ball sails over and all I’m screaming is ‘re-start, re-start’. If Australia win that ball then we can lose the World Cup. Most of the team weren’t in their right positions! Trevor Woodman should never have been in the middle of the park to catch that ball. The Aussies saw him isolated and kicked short to try to win it back. But he leapt like a salmon to take an amazing catch!

WILKINSON: Then Catty kicks it out and I watch the ball in the air... You know, I’ve never watched it again. I’d love to watch a load of those games but I’ll only watch them when the emotional memories drop off a bit, but for the moment I love the fact that when I think about it I still get the emotion with it. I don’t want to watch things in black and white because it will take away from it.

WOODWARD: The celebrations went on for a long time. You don’t dare think about them beforehand. You take your medal and spend time with your team-mates and family, just trying to take it in. I remember still being pretty cranky with the referee! The changing room was open, everyone was invited in. And the Australians were brilliant. They were devastated but they were so gracious. The plane journey home stands out — just a totally unscripted party.

The whole plane was full of England fans. British Airways were brilliant and from the moment we took off everyone stood up and just mingled, passing the trophy around! There was beer everywhere. When we landed, you just couldn’t get back to your seat, so everybody sat anywhere. One fan was asleep in mine. Then on the leg from Singapore to London, everyone just passed out.

Do you remember the day we got back from Australia? We were welcomed by supporters at Heathrow then we jumped on the coach to Pennyhill Park, where we were mobbed by yet more fans.

We were all saying goodbye and I asked you where you were going. You said you were jumping in a taxi to take you to Heathrow and flying back to Newcastle. I couldn’t believe it. I was sponsored by Jaguar at the time and I told my driver: ‘You’re not taking me home, you’re driving Jonny back up to Newcastle!’ You still didn’t learn when you got there, though. You went shopping at your local supermarket and caused a mini-riot.

VIDEO: Sir Clive Woodward relives England's World Cup triumph



Party time: England celebrate their late, dramatic and historic victory over Australia in the World Cup final Golden boy: Wilkinson's life changed over night as he became a sporting superstar after England's win Royalty: Woodward celebrates with Prince Harry in the England dressing room following the country's win

WILKINSON: I wouldn’t swap it for anything in my career, but that one night changed everything. Life stopped being simple. I have a very unhealthy fear of being celebrated. It doesn’t feel right. If I had my time again after the World Cup I would face up to it more. I remember walking into my house in a hat, then sending my mate out in my car wearing the same hat, so me and my brother could drive off in his car and escape out the back.

Maybe I should have gone out there and got used to the fact my life had changed, but at the same time showing people that I hadn’t. But I didn’t. Instead, I hid from it and that kept the problems going. It made me feel fragile.

WOODWARD: The years that followed brought an incredibly unlucky run of injuries for you. It wasn’t just a question of dealing with becoming a poster boy of British sport.

WILKINSON: The adjustment would certainly have been easier but for the injuries. I should have turned around in 2003 and said: ‘That’s that done, life can’t get any better, let’s just enjoy it.’ But I didn’t and because I couldn’t play, everything was related to that night. I made it a burden. I’ve thought a lot about the first half of my career, then the obvious break with all the injuries, then the second half, which includes my time now with Toulon. Things made a lot more sense in that first period. As time goes on I’m realising how precious those years were. In a way, the problem in my career was winning the World Cup.

Life changing: Wilkinson and his England team-mates were met by hordes of fans back in England Nation rejoices: Fans of all ages lined up to welcome their heroes home from Australia

WOODWARD: You know your website hardly mentions the World Cup. Is that a conscious thing?

WILKINSON: I tend to stay away from anything too celebratory and that was my issue with the World Cup. It was the ultimate experience, but I needed to put it behind me so that I could move on. My first game after Sydney was up in Newcastle against Northampton, and it was a relief. But I got injured. And for the next 10 months I got lost.

WOODWARD: You say you got lost but you always had a remarkable temperament to keep dealing with the setbacks. After I left England it sounds like your injuries took over your career for a short time.

WILKINSON: I had 14 injuries before I was able to get back on the field with England and I lost that feeling of everything making sense. I missed all of 2004, ’05 and ’06, so the 2007 World Cup was my comeback. Then I missed all of 2008 and ’09 and there had been a generation change. I didn’t know whether I was trying to hold on or chase my way back. At one point I tried to pretend I was 18 again, trying to pretend that I’d never played for England, but nobody else was going to give me that freedom. Being dropped for a game made sense before the 2003 World Cup, but after it felt like, ‘Oh my God, what has my life come to?’

I had to sit and watch Charlie Hodgson play brilliantly. I remember going down to play Gloucester at the Shed one year, after being injured God knows how many times. I thought: ‘Great, they always give you a kicking in the warm-up.’ A Gloucester welcome is one to relish. But it was different. It was almost like, ‘Oh here he comes, give him a cheer, he’s had a tough time.’ But I wanted them to shout at me, I didn’t want pity.

Blow: Injuries have blighted Wilkinson's career since his defining moment in the World Cup final

WOODWARD: But, all these years later, you have achieved a remarkable thing in bookmarking your career with two great highs. By winning the Heineken Cup with Toulon you achieved the two biggest things a rugby player can, but a decade apart. I can’t think of any rugby player, or indeed many athletes, who have achieved anything similar in that time frame...

WILKINSON: I realise now that a career is about the day-to-day journey. A few guys in the pub may want to talk about who was better than who, who won what, but for me it is about the constant desire of wanting to get better, regardless of the setbacks. What matters in your career comes from the attitude, desire, relationships, ambitions of you and your team-mates. It is those things that make for a great life — and productivity will come from these things.

WOODWARD: You talk about yourself as an obsessive person and I consider myself totally obsessive — I think it’s a great trait. You have been writing things down and making notes since you were seven and that detail and focus is what makes you the player you are. You would make a brilliant coach. Is it something you plan to do?

WILKINSON: I have a few aspirational ideas — a clothing line and a nutrition line — but I also love to see guys get the best out of their skills, so in that way I love coaching. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking and researching how best to do things, on and off the field. We have some talented young No 10s at Toulon and I would love to guide them. At the same time, it would be great to work with props on left-hand spin passing, to help second rows attack the line — not just the guys who play fly-half.

Still going strong: Wilkinson helped Toulon win the Heineken Cup final last season

WOODWARD: Your last World Cup was 2011, which was a very different experience to ’03. Can you put your finger on what actually happened? Looking in from the outside, there were plenty of guys with incredible status there, so how did it go so wrong?

WILKINSON: In any team you need a basic understanding to be there. There was a connection in 2003, guys just got on with each other. But even if we occasionally didn’t, if there was a little bit of this or that, it just made training a bit more intense. It actually kind of helped. But in 2011, that simple connection wasn’t there, and then everything you do feels like you’re trying to force it. I was playing with guys who had never even seen me play rugby because I’d been injured so long. Guys didn’t know how to talk to each other: ‘Apparently this guy played in 2003 and I’m supposed to respect him but I’ve never met him.’

I was supposed to tell these guys what to do, but I didn’t know if they believed in me yet, and on the pitch I didn’t know where the ball was going to go. A lot of that falls on my shoulders: I didn’t find that connection either and for only the second time in my career the amount of external pressure from the media just got into my head enough to get me lost.

WOODWARD: You were always dogmatic and stern. That was a huge strength of yours, not a weakness or a problem.



Bad memories: Wilkinson is dejected as England crash out to France in the World Cup in 2011

WILKINSON: But in New Zealand I had to ask myself: ‘Am I just a guy who is super uptight? Are my team-mates thinking, “He’s killing us and he’s killing the mood?” ’ I think I’m getting on with everyone but then I’m out at 7am practising my kicking. I didn’t know how to get on with the team, but as the central hub at No 10 you need to know all that. You can be sure as hell everyone got up in the morning and tried to make it work, but it still wasn’t working.

WOODWARD: My final question: What is the most valuable lesson you have learned in your career?

WILKINSON: The support of the player has to be such that it isn’t a case of the higher you strive the further you fall. With the right support, players know they can aim for the 10 out of 10 performance and land on a seven at worst. But if that system isn’t there and you ask a player to go for a 10, he won’t because he’s afraid of falling on a two. If you’re not sure of a situation you go for an eight, but who wants to finish their career and look back at those days they just got by?

That drop goal was a case in point. The severity of the lessons on the way to 2003 — like those missed Grand Slam deciders — was key to our understanding of what to do in extra time, of what to aim for. All the lessons came down to those 60 seconds. It was made to be, it was set up for that final play. All the lessons were encapsulated.

Sir Clive Woodward and Jonny Wilkinson were speaking to Luke Benedict





