HAYDEN COOPER, PRESENTER: An import ban on the Adler lever-action shotgun will remain in place after state and territory ministers failed to reach an agreement on how to classify the weapon.

Importation was banned last year, amid concerns about the shotgun's rapid-fire capability.

This week the issue became a political problem for the Government when Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott clashed publicly over a push to legalise the shotgun.

Tonight we hear from both sides of the argument on whether this firearm should be permitted.

Earlier I was joined by Nationals MP Mark Coulton, who wants the ban lifted, and the chair of Gun Control Australia, Samantha Lee.

Thank you both for joining us.

SAMANTHA LEE, CHAIR, GUN CONTROL AUSTRALIA: Thank you.

MARK COULTON, NATIONALS MP FOR PARKES: Yeah, good evening, Hayden.

HAYDEN COOPER: Mark Coulton, firstly to you: could you explain why we need this weapon in Australia?

MARK COULTON: Oh, look, I think the point is that we don't particularly need it. There are other firearms that have similar capabilities.

But I guess the issue is that there's no real reason to preclude it if it meets all the criteria set down under the Firearms Agreement between the states.

And so my concern is that if this shotgun, as it has this week, got caught up in a political brawl that really is just using the shotgun as a centrepiece, the law-abiding citizens that may choose to purchase one of these for either feral control or recreation will be prohibited because of not an issue based on science or clarification of a weapon, but more on emotion and politics. And I think that's unfortunate.

HAYDEN COOPER: So you're saying that, firstly, it's not really needed because there are other similar weapons here; but even so, you believe that farmers and recreational shooters and hunters should have access to it?

MARK COULTON: That's right. And there are some, because it's attractive. It's not something that's new on the market. Maybe that it's got two more shots in one of the models in its chamber - in the magazines, I should say - makes a difference.

But realistically, it's quite reasonably priced. It's got a pretty good record of being reliable. And so licensed firearms owners: there is a demand for it and it fits into a category along with quite a few other firearms that are perfectly legal in Australia at the moment.

So, Samantha Lee, to you. If there are similar weapons already available here to this shotgun, why do you have concerns about this one coming onto the market also?

SAMANTHA LEE: Yes, so the big question is: why all the fuss about this particular firearm?

One of the main issues about this firearm is its ability to change its magazine to extend the magazine. At the moment, there are six-shot Adlers available legally in this country and they are legally being extended to an 11-shot Adler. And this is the most dangerous aspect of this firearm.

In addition: its ability to rapid-fire. The old lever-actions are based on an old cowboy, clunky, lever-action gun. This is a modern twist on an old gun. It's slicker, it's sophisticated. It fires a lot faster than your old lever-action shotgun.

HAYDEN COOPER: Do you accept, though, that farmers do need a shotgun like this one?

SAMANTHA LEE: No civilians require a rapid-style firearm. The whole purpose of the National Firearms Agreement was to restrict access to rapid-style firearms. When I say "rapid-style", it means that it can propel eight bullets in eight seconds. And these types of firearms are used regularly in massacres. And this is the main reason why we don't need them in the general community.

HAYDEN COOPER: Mark Coulton, on the issue of farming: the farmers in particular are saying they need this. What exactly do they need it for?

MARK COULTON: Look, it has a similar capability to a pump-action shotgun, of which there are many of those throughout the bush.

This one does have its place. There's a lot of helicopter work done: shooting pigs in my area. They're a huge economic threat to our agriculture. And it's just another tool. It's another piece of equipment that would be useful.

HAYDEN COOPER: But eight bullets in eight seconds to shoot a feral pig?

MARK COULTON: Well, pigs are pack animals and they generally, if you come across a pack of pigs or whatever, it's quite useful to have that number of shots.

You know, I am speaking from some experience. I've been a farmer all my life and I have a firearms licence. I'm not a shooting enthusiast: it's always been just one of the jobs you have to do when you're responsible for caring for livestock.

And so I just think this has become emotional: the idea that this may be used for a massacre. Where I took umbrage in this was: it's a reflection on the legal firearms owners in Australia and most of the illegal activity that happens is done through weapons that are illegal.

And you know, I probably strongly agree with Samantha that we've really got a problem with those sort of weapons. But I don't think it's a big problem in Australia with people who are registered firearms owners.

HAYDEN COOPER: And Samantha Lee, what is wrong with a system in which gun owners are licensed? They have to have checks. They have to show genuine reason that they need a shotgun like this before they can even get their hands on one. Isn't that an appropriate system that would place adequate control over these weapons?

SAMANTHA LEE: Well, no. At the moment there are already allowed six-shot Adlers into the country. And those Adlers can be purchased by the general hunting community, who hold the lowest-level firearm licence in Australia, which is Category A.

We know that Category A and B licences and firearms are the most common firearm in Australia. And Category A and B firearms are the most common firearms stolen in Australia.

So if the Justice Minister and the Prime Minister are concerned with guns moving into the illicit market, then they must not allow these guns into the legal market.

HAYDEN COOPER: And you want this in Category C, then: so that's really only for farmers. Correct? Would you accept that?

SAMANTHA LEE: Look, there's two types of Adlers - and this is where the confusion lies. There is a six-shot Adler, which is already available in Australia; and there is the eight-shot Adler, which has been banned.

We want the eight-shot Adler to continue to be banned and not allowed into Australia. We want the six-shot changed from a Category A, which is a general hunting rifle licence, to a Category C, which does limit the number of firearm owners who can gain access to this type of firearm.

Well, we've seen today that the state ministers have been unable to agree on a new classification for that eight-shot Adler, which means that ban remains in place. You must be pretty happy with that outcome?

Look, the problem is that the horse has already bolted. Back in October last year the Justice Minister allowed in the six-shot Adler.

Now, the big problem with this is that a new magazine extension market has emerged here in Australia, which the Minister was warned about. It means that, as we're speaking, someone with a six-shot is now converting it into an 11-shot.

So it is a bit of a farce that there's a concentration on the eight-shot and not on the Adler that's already here in Australia.

HAYDEN COOPER: Before we go, Mark Coulton, would you agree that that's a problem? And would you like greater restrictions on the six-shot gun that is already available and can be extended to be an 11-shot weapon?

MARK COULTON: Look, I think this is portrayed in Parliament this week as a watering-down of firearms. The proposal is to increase it.

I actually disagree with Samantha. I think it fits nicely in a 'B'. I think it should be tougher than an 'A', for sure. I think it would fit nicely in a 'B'.

But I think the number of shots is somewhat academic. I think my point is - and the reason that I've come out on this is - that in the people that want to own these things and use them in a responsible, legal manner, I don't think they should be targeted in with someone who might be possible to cause some sort of harm to large numbers of people.

And the licensed firearms owners of Australia aren't the ones that are committing the crimes and I think it should be reasonable that they go about their daily work and be able to purchase something that's within reason.

HAYDEN COOPER: All right. Mark Coulton, Samantha Lee, thank you.

SAMANTHA LEE: Thank you.

MARK COULTON: Thank you. Thank you, Samantha.

SAMANTHA LEE: Thank you.