McFaul was America’s man in Moscow during a pivotal moment in the U.S.-Russia relationship: after disputed elections in Russia convinced Putin that the United States was trying to undermine him, but just before Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine. While McFaul defended Obama’s record on Russia, he admitted that the administration was initially slow to respond to Russian aggression. And he acknowledged that, in the waning days of Obama’s presidency, relations between the two countries are in a “precarious” state. “The Soviet Union did not annex territory,” he noted. “That’s something new. The Soviet Union did not meddle in [America’s] electoral affairs, at least to the extent and as successfully as they did this time. That’s something new.”

An edited and condensed transcript of our conversation follows.

Uri Friedman: In your view, is this a tough enough response by the Obama administration to Russia’s cyber campaign during the election?

Michael McFaul: Well, I’m pleased there is a response. This is a very important marker to put down, especially before the Obama administration leaves office. For me, the most important thing is actually not the sanctions. The most important thing is the attribution that the administration had to do in order to put these entities and these people on sanctions. There are still many Americans, millions of Americans, including maybe even our president-elect, [who refuse] to believe that anything even happened. This action, I think, should end forever [the] debate about whether the Russians were interfering in our presidential election.

Friedman: What is it about the level of attribution that you feel ends the debate?

McFaul: You don’t punish an individual or an organization unless you have overwhelming evidence of what they did. And especially this administration and this president, somebody I used to work with—he would never do this unless the evidence was absolutely overwhelming.

An important part of what the administration was trying to communicate [was]: This is a real threat. It didn’t end [with Election Day] on November 8, and it won’t end with the inauguration of President Trump. [It is] naive to think, “Well [the Russians] just do this stuff because tensions are high, but when we get to a detente with Russia this will end.”

Friedman: The U.S. already has sanctions in place against Russia for Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine. What’s the marginal impact of additional sanctions? Do you think it actually hurts Russia economically?

McFaul: I don’t think so, to be honest, not this set of sanctions. I don’t think that’s the intention. The intention is to exact a cost and to attribute this attack to those entities and those individuals. The Obama administration understands that this relatively small number of entities and people sanctioned is not going to have an economic impact. It’s not going to change Putin’s behavior, especially because Putin, not without reason, believes that he’s going to have an opportunity to roll back the sanctions with the next [U.S.] administration.