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It has come to my attention that this Project M thing is getting pretty big: it already has recognition and equal standing to the three real games on SmashBoards and in tournaments. And now, multiple people are requesting that we do the same here.

At present, SW:NOT defines that we should keep away from fanon and fan games due to the impossibility of defining a notability criteria. However, Project M has a few properties that make it hard to fit into this generality:

It defines its own notability criteria by being the only Brawl hack to reach widespread public recognition and tournament participation. It is only ambiguously a fan game, as it is a hack and not a bottom-up recreation. Highly notable hacks do have a place on-wiki.

The current policy on notable hacks (including Project M) is to contain all info about the hack on a single page and refrain from mentioning it on other pages. This debate is to determine whether we should change this policy, and in what way.

Process [ edit ]

This page has several sections. Read every section before you vote in any of them; some are mutually exclusive. The rules of voting are as follows:

Place your vote in each applicable section. Make sure to sign your votes. You may include a reason with your vote, or you may not. If you do choose to include a reason, do not argue with what others have already said, as this is sure to be a controversial subject and arguing doesn't help anybody. Instead, put your entire opinion on the table. Express your reasoning as completely as possible, preferably without referring to anyone else's reasons, so that you will not need to elaborate in the future. If what you want to see has no option, vote in whatever's closest and state what you want to see as your reason. If enough others decide to side with this option it may be added for real. You may change your votes and/or reasons at any time, ensuring that it still conforms to the above. Votes that are unnecessary (a "no" in a subtopic where the user already voted "no" in the parent topic) will be deleted. Unsigned votes will be deleted, as will those with incorrect formatting. Reasons that break the given guidelines will be removed; the vote itself will remain. You can re-vote later if you do it properly. As with everything on the wiki, winning the vote does not guarantee winning the decision. Weight is given to arguments and voters' on-wiki experience. Recruiting new users from offsite to vote for your side will not help.

Topic: Allow Project M to have independent character pages [ edit ]

Note: A "Yes" decision here implies that relevant images, templates, and categories will also be allowed.

Subtopic: Allow Project M to have moveset subpages [ edit ]

Note: If you voted "No" for individual character pages, do not vote here (your vote here is assumed "No").

STMS: Yes [ edit ] Place your vote here if you would like to see the moveset subpage project extended to PM. Most characters don't need them yes. But a select few have drastically changed frame data (like Sonic) that deserves documentation.-- Brian Don't try me! Again. Most certainly! I play P:M and Melee and P:M is very different from Melee and vBrawl. The only characters I can think of that are similar enough to warrent no mention are Fox and Falco. And even inthat respect they are different enough. The new metagame means their moves may be used differently and of course frame data is not precisely similar. I honestly believe having all the Project M info for characters all in one very easy to navigate place will help a quickly growing community grow only quicker. Very few characters lack a new move or three and many existing moves act VERY differently (see Diddy's side special for example). I think Project M deserves it. User:LockableFaceman I don't see what's wrong with having them, and the PM articles would not be complete without detailed movesets like this. As long as there are people willing to write them (not me though since I don't play it), I'm perfectly fine with it. Awesome Cardinal 2000 21:00, 17 October 2013 (EDT) The two games are just dissimilar enough to warrant it, but it should be limited to extreme differences or Brawl character's new or altered moves (like the Pokémon Trainer's new down specials). Oasidu (talk) 14:49, 19 October 2013 (EDT) Well, one of the primary things I think the wiki needs. Characters like Toon Link, Wario, Sonic and the Pokémon have a considerable change on frame data, and so will the newcomers do. Just listing the changed moves is unsufficient, and instead characters should have moveset pages with more technical data and competitive expertise. Crazy master hand 98 19:55, 22 October 2013 (EDT) Definitely, for the same reasons as above. Personman (talk) 03:52, 5 November 2013 (EST) As long as this sort of data is kept separate from official game data, there is no harm of it merely existing on the wiki. It does not detract from the current standard of quality, and it provides players with the kind of information that is available for the other games. As PMs competitive scene grows, this kind of data will be in high demand, and this is a fine place to host it. Someone will exist who will want to gather this information, and telling them that they can't place it here is nonsensical. If a clear barrier exists between the fan-made and the official, then there is no possible reason to not have this information stored here. Ryxis (talk) 03:46, 7 November 2013 (EST) I think the pages would not be complete without moveset subpages. However, I don't think they would need much more than a single page containing all of the moves; they don't need individual pages for each move, nor should they be included in the main-game move pages for the same special moves. Menace13 (talk) at 22:08, 12 November 2013 (EST). STMS: No [ edit ] Place your vote here if you think the effort required to extend the project is not worth it. Should the individual character pages notion pass I do NOT want to have to deal with doubling the project workload for minimal gain. Toomai Glittershine The Eggster 12:44, 16 October 2013 (EDT) Absolutely no need to go /that/ far. S c r 7 (talk · contribs) 13:04, 16 October 2013 (EDT) I'm in agreement with the above; it's not noteworthy enough as a distinct entity or worth it, either. Jigglypuff the Magic Dragon (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2013 (EDT) Do t s The Goldeneye 15:56, 16 October 2013 (EDT) James Heart 17:42, 16 October 2013 (EDT) I don't think we need that, though. --Timson622222 (talk) 22:46, 16 October 2013 (EDT) We're having a hard enough time doing this for the first three games (with a fourth coming up), we don't need to burden ourselves with more, which are mostly carbon copies of Melee or Brawl attacks. Toast ltimatum 14:27, 19 October 2013 (EDT) Ain't nobody got time for that. Chuck Norris 18:39, 18 October 2013 (EDT) The time and energy required to write character movesets is not needed at this point, especially in Project M's ever changing stages of development. Sartron (talk) 17:28, 20 October 2013 (EDT) Okay, we don't need to go THIS far. Fireblaze77

Topic: Allow Project M to have other independent pages [ edit ]

Topic: Give Project M equal standing with the real games [ edit ]

Note: "Equal standing" does not mean "part of the Smash Bros. series". The series itself will always be only the official games; the phrase "the Smash Bros. series" does not and will not refer to PM.

Subtopic: Usage of Project M article icon [ edit ]

Votes: Delete notable hacks such as Project M from the wiki [ edit ]

Finally, there will be those who do not believe that even the most notable of hacks deserve representation on a wiki whose mission statement is to document the Smash Bros. series as unbiasedly as possible. This section is for those people to post their votes. If you intend to vote here, do not place a vote for the other topics.

...

Preliminary verdict [ edit ]

As of this time it appears the community's opinions have become mostly clear:

Project M is too big to ignore, and with the widespread character changes and much-hyped additions, the project should get independent character pages if nothing else.

Moveset subpages are not currently of importance; the effort required to create and maintain them during active development is not worth the benefit.

There isn't currently enough notable changes aside from characters to warrant independent pages for other elements.

Important PM notes can be noted in non-PM-exclusive articles, but as a whole should remain cordoned off in the main article.

Using a PM article icon is acceptable for PM character pages and tournaments.

Should the discussion close now, this is what would happen:

Character (PM) pages would be created for all Brawl characters plus PM additions. They would be placed in Category:Characters (PM) and the like, and given the PM article icon.

pages would be created for all Brawl characters plus PM additions. They would be placed in and the like, and given the PM article icon. Tournaments holding PM events would get the PM article icon.

Categories such as Screenshots (PM) would be created as necessary.

would be created as necessary. Pages can have minor PM-related notes added, such as putting something like "In PM, the detection angle is reverted to Melee's range, so spikes exist" in the Brawl section of the meteor smash article.

Policies such as SW:NOT would have exceptions added for PM.

If you have a serious problem with going forward with this as written, and you feel like you need to say something you haven't said above, speak now. Remember to only state your full opinion and not argue with others'. Remember that like all wiki policies, this can change in the future if enough support arises, but as of this time this is what would happen. Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 12:26, 3 November 2013 (EST)

The only capacity in which character pages for Project M should go forward is as clear subpages to the Project M subpage itself. I repeat that it should not even be mentioned in the mainspace outside of articles specifically about hacking/mods and pages for tournaments that include Project M events. SmashWiki should keep its mainspace emphasis quite strictly on the actual official games of the series, regardless of Project M tournament play. Miles ( talk ) 12:32, 3 November 2013 (EST)

Point number two: As long as there are people willing to write the moveset subpage articles (which there will be), I don't see what's wrong with having them, and the information can be changed as the game is developed (which shouldn't be hard to do). Awesome Cardinal 2000 18:07, 3 November 2013 (EST)

Point #3 - I don't think we should always put P:M notes onto pages if it's not important. If it's something new that P:M adds, like input buffer control, there could be a mention of it on a related page that discusses how Brawl has the 10-frame buffer. However, for spikes, it's already assumed that P:M reverts it back so we don't necessarily need that information. --Timson622222 (talk) 00:02, 9 November 2013 (EST)

Hello? It's been a while. Not to sound impatient, but can we have a deadline or something, as in 'we will be moving forward with the above specifications at XX date'? The above section has been up for 16 days and the last additions were a member going through the debates on the 12th and a Timson622222's comment on the 9th. Again, I apologize if this seems impatient. Jigglypuff the Magic Dragon (talk) 18:12, 19 November 2013 (EST)

I saw OT's input today (he's indifferent), so that's all the most active staff accounted for. I'll be doing some work here within the next week. Toomai Glittershine The Labbie 18:16, 19 November 2013 (EST) Alright, thanks. I'd be happy to help in any way I can. Jigglypuff the Magic Dragon (talk) 18:21, 19 November 2013 (EST)

The verdict [ edit ]

As nothing major has really changed since the preliminary verdict was issued, I think it's safe to say that it can be implemented pretty much as-is. To sum it up:

Characters get independent pages. Nothing else does.

Characters, relevant tournaments, and news items get a PM article icon.

Pages can have minor PM-related notes added.

SW:NOT will be altered appropriately.

Within the next day or two, I will be creating relevant templates and three stubs: Mario (PM), Mewtwo (PM), and Charizard (PM). Once the stubs are up, use their format to create other character articles and fill them in. I ask you not create any new pages until then, though you can add minor PM notes to existing articles.

Finally, I will reply to some specific posts in this page that caught my attention:

TCP:No, vote 8 (72.53.134.85) You do bring up two good points: That this ruling may provide a foothold for nameless schmucks who want their personal mod recognized. This can't be denied, but at the very least we can keep our rules strict, and it's not like we haven't dealt with this issue in the past. That this wiki will outlive PM, which unlike the actual games won't be available on future Virtual Consoles, and so will eventually vanish. This is probably true, but I don't think it's a relevant argument against widening its scope right now. PM will always be important enough to mention even historically, and even if in the future it becomes underfoot enough for character pages to be unimportant, they can be stuffed back into the main page.

Prelim verdict, Miles: Placing character pages as subpages did occur to me as an option. However, in the end I figure it's relatively pointless. Subpages don't really do anything special aside from provide "up the tree" links under the title; such pages are still in the mainspace in all ways (can be accesed from Special:Random, appear in "mainspace" for magic words and statistics), with the added disadvantages of having a long name and being harder to search for.

This is how things will go forward as of now. Toomai Glittershine The Loony 13:20, 20 November 2013 (EST)

Reopening discussion [ edit ]

I hope this edit isn't out of place, but since we have had time to view the results of the verdict for PM information, I want to bring up a few things:

I feel that a small handful of other PM articles would be beneficial in organizing information about PM. I'm talking 4, maybe 5 articles at a max. Dracula's Castle and Skyloft could use one. So could Turbo Mode, and maybe one for aerial glide tossing. There currently is no place for information on the new stages, and Turbo mode has a random assortment of data stuffed into the PM article awkwardly. It could use its own article with its own sections to actually get the information down.

For people working on character articles, I feel that the Mario one is a pretty good one to use as a reference for the others. We don't need those funky {{for| <the unmodded version...> }} things at the top, that information can just be put into the infobox. It should mention the series that the character comes from, just like any other character page, and it should have an attributes paragraph or two documenting the character's strengths and weaknesses in a mostly objective manner. Meaning rather than talking about changes in the attributes section ("Forward smash is now stronger"), talk about them in a way that is meaningful and self-contained without requiring knowledge of the character base ("Forward smash is extremely powerful").

}} things at the top, that information can just be put into the infobox. It should mention the series that the character comes from, just like any other character page, and it should have an attributes paragraph or two documenting the character's strengths and weaknesses in a mostly objective manner. Meaning rather than talking about changes in the attributes section ("Forward smash is now stronger"), talk about them in a way that is meaningful and self-contained without requiring knowledge of the character base ("Forward smash is extremely powerful"). Those custom CSPs have got to go. They're unofficial, have the color bar/warning signs on them, and are low quality. We need a consistent set of images to use throughout the character articles, preferably renders and not any ripped CSPs. We could use Brawl's, but we don't have any for Roy/Mewtwo or Pokemon trainer Pokemon. So wweh.

Ryxis (talk) 06:18, 24 February 2014 (EST)

Bump. I still feel that a couple of other PM pages would be fitting. Ryxis (talk) 16:56, 25 February 2014 (EST)

About Custom Stages [ edit ]

I think each stage available in Project M (Except for the ones that have only received minor edits) should be mentioned on the stage's specific page, as well as its actual Tournament status in PM. Of course this would mean creating all new pages for the three Project M exclusive stages: Dracula's Castle, Training Room and Skyloft. Project M in-game snapshots should also be uploaded rather than using the N64 or Melee images.--Wolfy76700 (talk) 16:57, 13 September 2014 (EDT)