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Member No.: 3,064



Group: TrollPosts: 81Joined: 30-March 08Member No.: 3,064







In this thread there aren't any remarks about the ATC'er giving the distance from Johnstown Airport to the point where, at 10:06 AM EST, the ATC'er lost the transponder signal again.

He gave at 10:10 AM the geographical coordinates for that signal loss spot, but at 10:07 already, also the distance in miles :



QUOTE - 10:07 AM : Sixteen (16) miles south of Johnstown they said they lost radar contact with UAL93 and it was heading turning one four zero heading.



Later, about 10:10 AM he gave the geographical coordinates for the point where they lost contact via the transponder signals on their screens.

However, that's nearly 2 times further than the distance he gave a few minutes earlier for the same spot.



See for more details this thread-post of mine at ATS, which thread I seemed to have hijacked, as usual when I get hooked to a subject :

Visit My post at this 7 page long ATS-thread.

It's not really lost time to read the whole thread for those who believe that something stinks in the official UAL93 story.



QUOTE Originally posted by LaBTop at ATS

-- I snipped some first text lines --



4. Two ATC controllers had a conversation about one of them registering UAL93's transponder signal again at 10:05 AM, and thus having all the associated readings back on his screen again, like height (8,200 feet!!!), distance, rate of descent and flight path heading during the short time (circa one minute) the signal was on again. He lost it again at 10:06 AM, and gave the exact geographical coordinates to his ATC colleague for the moment he lost track again :

39°51'0.00'' N and 78°46'0.00'' W.

He did not give the height! I will come to that later on.



5. This is a post from the Google Earth Community-Forums from 09/09/2006 (that's 4 years ago already) :

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?...p;Number=575075

[ex]Location of "end" on flight path of flight 93.

Airport closed 1999 - runway in top condition.[/ex]



It's the Indian Lake Airpark (5G2) Central City, PA which is situated just 0.5 mile east of Indian Lake, where all that debris rained down on the marinas and on the fishermen on the lake. And then we have another debris site cordoned off by the FBI on 911, 8 miles from the official crash site, near New Baltimore.

It is however not at all the coordinates that the ATC'er gave for the last known position of UAL93, that's much more southeast!

So, how did this person got to his remark in 2006 already, makes me wonder.



6. This is looking straight down onto the Flight 93 crash site. North is to the top. Note the impact point north of the road, and the burned trees to the south of it. On the left side of this aerial photo you see the two perpendicular ditches you can see in the big 1994 USGS-photo I linked to in my last post.

It's clear that the crash spot is definitely not in the soft refilled soil but instead in the original soil just beside the gravel road.

Just enlarge this 911-photo so far, until you can overlay it on the 1994 USGS photo. Then you see my point.







=========================



Ok, also found that link to the official transcription of the last known position of UAL93 from the Pilots for 911 Truth forum by member Woody Box :



Pilots for 911 Truth - Board message :

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/united-93-still-airborne.html



Thread started by Woody Box (this thread here) :

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=17089



Flight Data Recorder Transcript of ATC communications. Scroll to page 29 and 30 to look at the last time ATC found the 93-transponder back :

FDR transcript of ATC'ers talking about UAL93 on 911.

It can take some time to load these pages from Scribd.



At the first position when the transponder came on again at 1405 UTC (10:05 EST), the height reported by that transponder was 8200 feet.

At 1406 UTC (10:06 EST) they lost that transponder contact again.

They did not give a height at that moment!

But they talked on about the last heading of 140°, and pondered on, that it would take the plane then just west of Dulles Airport in the end.

So I wonder if this means that the plane was still at that same height of about 8,000 feet, as reported earlier on already by a VFR (another pilot) around 09:57 AM, who also said it was waving/rocking its wings flying past him at 8,000 feet high, and 8,000 feet was also reported by the transponder when it briefly (1 min) came on again at 10:04.

Logic tells us, that if the last height reported by the last transponder signal was much lower than 8,000 feet, those two ATC'ers would not go on contemplating about where it would end the flight, and even proposed a landing spot just west of Dulles Airport. They would have shouted that they lost signal at a very low height and that it was going to crash. But such a nervous conversation did not happen at all in reality!





I (or another member?) will eventually try to calculate speeds along the flight path based on times and positions reported in the Scribd list by those two ATC'ers, and see if they match the NTSB speed diagram, see the link in my above post. The distance flown, as the crow flies, was about 60 miles from Pittsburgh, and thus the official flight-time 7 minutes from 09:56 until 10:03 AM, over this NTSB trajectory ( however it had a slight half-circular ending ), that means an overall speed of 514 miles/hour to cover that 60 miles :



- At 09:56 : They tracked UAL93 until they lost it at 09:56 right above Pittsburgh. The crash site is about 60 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

- At 09:57 the plane was 20 miles (NM?) northwest of Johnstown Airport, as reported by another plane's pilot.

- At 10:00 the ATC'er gives another sort of position reported by that VFR (visual flight report) from another pilot at 09:57 :

Eleven, so 11 miles south of Indian Head and just north of Cumberland, Maryland.

- Page 28 : 10:03 AM Secret Services called and said there was another plane coming from Pittsburgh inbound for Washington DC that's unaccounted for. American 77, says one ATC'er to the other.

- 10:04 AM : Indiana State police reports a plane down just between the boundary of Ohio and Kentucky, the Cincinnati area.

(I don't know what to make from that.?.They also waited on confirmation)

- 10:05 AM : Unknown (Secret Service man on direct land line probably?), says they know about 93 already.

- 10:05 AM : Transponder on again, 8,200 feet and still southbound.

- 10:06 AM : Lost radar contact (is that for sure the transponder, or main radar returns?).

- 10:07 AM : Sixteen (16) miles south of Johnstown they said they lost radar contact with UAL93 and it was heading turning one four zero heading.

"" Which will put him to what do you think? ""

"" Uh I guess that put him down coming right just west of Dulles.

If he stays on that heading of course."





Thus I think I found something what has not been taken in consideration yet, by the members and pilots from Pilots for 911 Truth.

At 10:07 EST the ATC'er remarks that they lost contact when the plane was 16 south of Johnstown (airport) and it was heading turning one four zero. Do they mean turning to 140° on a compass scale, or what does "heading turning" mean between one ATC and another ATC (or pilots).

And is 16 south in miles or nautical miles? I guess NM.

You can see back in one of my posts in the NTSB diagram from their 93 flight path, that the plane made a wide quarter circle till down south at the end.



When you measure in Google Earth the distance from Johnstown Cambria County Airport (JST) to the official crash site, you find it to be 18.66 miles = 16.21 Nautical miles.

The distance however from JST to that position given by the ATC'er for the moment he lost contact with the transponder for the last time, is far more, 39°51'0.00 N 78°46'0.00 W, and that's 32.36 miles = 28.12 Nautical miles (further southeast) from the crash site. Nearly two times further away in nautical miles. In a very desolated spot, see for yourself in Google Earth. Just fill in the above coordinates in Search.



Thus, the questions which arise now, are :



1. How can an experienced ATC'er give two data which exclude each other COMPLETELY, namely a rather precise last known geographical position in degrees, compared to a distance from JST in nautical miles?

Which do not fit each other by any means!



2. Could UAL93 dive from 8,200 feet at a 40° angle to the ground within 60 seconds, without breaking apart in mid air?

I think it could, but I did not look into the mechanical aspects of its resulting speed over that 40° trajectory related to its airframe endurance, yet.



3. They lost contact again at 10:06 EST, and talk on a bit about the heading at 10:07 EST, and the point where it then will come down, just west of Dulles Airport. They would not do that when the height reading and rate of descent at the last transponder loss time wasn't about the same as before. -- I snipped some first text lines --4. Two ATC controllers had a conversation about one of them registering UAL93's transponder signal again at 10:05 AM, and thus having all the associated readings back on his screen again, like height (8,200 feet!!!), distance, rate of descent and flight path heading during the short time (circa one minute) the signal was on again. He lost it again at 10:06 AM, and gave the exact geographical coordinates to his ATC colleague for the moment he lost track again :39°51'0.00'' N and 78°46'0.00'' W.He did not give the height! I will come to that later on.5. This is a post from the Google Earth Community-Forums from 09/09/(that's 4 years ago already) :[ex]Location of "end" on flight path of flight 93.Airport closed 1999 - runway in top condition.[/ex]It's the Indian Lake Airpark (5G2) Central City, PA which is situated just 0.5 mile east of Indian Lake, where all that debris rained down on the marinas and on the fishermen on the lake. And then we have another debris site cordoned off by the FBI on 911, 8 miles from the official crash site, near New Baltimore.It is however not at all the coordinates that the ATC'er gave for the last known position of UAL93, that's much more southeast!So, how did this person got to his remark in 2006 already, makes me wonder.6. This is looking straight down onto the Flight 93 crash site. North is to the top. Note the impact point north of the road, and the burned trees to the south of it. On the left side of this aerial photo you see the two perpendicular ditches you can see in the big 1994 USGS-photo I linked to in my last post.It's clear that the crash spot is definitely not in the soft refilled soil but instead in the original soil just beside the gravel road.Just enlarge this 911-photo so far, until you can overlay it on the 1994 USGS photo. Then you see my point.=========================Ok, also found that link to the official transcription of the last known position of UAL93 from the Pilots for 911 Truth forum by member Woody Box :Pilots for 911 Truth - Board message :Thread started by Woody Box (this thread here) :Flight Data Recorder Transcript of ATC communications. Scroll to page 29 and 30 to look at the last time ATC found the 93-transponder back :It can take some time to load these pages from Scribd.At the first position when the transponder came on again at 1405 UTC (10:05 EST), the height reported by that transponder was 8200 feet.At 1406 UTC (10:06 EST) they lost that transponder contact again.They did not give a height at that moment!But they talked on about the last heading of 140°, and pondered on, that it would take the plane then just west of Dulles Airport in the end.So I wonder if this means that the plane was still at that same height of about 8,000 feet, as reported earlier on already by a VFR (another pilot) around 09:57 AM, who also said it was waving/rocking its wings flying past him at 8,000 feet high, and 8,000 feet was also reported by the transponder when it briefly (1 min) came on again at 10:04.Logic tells us, that if the last height reported by the last transponder signal was much lower than 8,000 feet, those two ATC'ers would not go on contemplating about where it would end the flight, and even proposed a landing spot just west of Dulles Airport. They would have shouted that they lost signal at a very low height and that it was going to crash. But such a nervous conversation did not happen at all in reality!I (or another member?) will eventually try to calculate speeds along the flight path based on times and positions reported in the Scribd list by those two ATC'ers, and see if they match the NTSB speed diagram, see the link in my above post. The distance flown, as the crow flies, was about 60 miles from Pittsburgh, and thus the official flight-time 7 minutes from 09:56 until 10:03 AM, over this NTSB trajectory ( however it had a slight half-circular ending ), that means an overall speed of 514 miles/hour to cover that 60 miles :- At 09:56 : They tracked UAL93 until they lost it at 09:56 right above Pittsburgh. The crash site is about 60 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.- At 09:57 the plane was 20 miles (NM?) northwest of Johnstown Airport, as reported by another plane's pilot.- At 10:00 the ATC'er gives another sort of position reported by that VFR (visual flight report) from another pilot at 09:57 :Eleven, so 11 miles south of Indian Head and just north of Cumberland, Maryland.- Page 28 : 10:03 AM Secret Services called and said there was another plane coming from Pittsburgh inbound for Washington DC that's unaccounted for. American 77, says one ATC'er to the other.- 10:04 AM : Indiana State police reports a plane down just between the boundary of Ohio and Kentucky, the Cincinnati area.(I don't know what to make from that.?.They also waited on confirmation)- 10:05 AM : Unknown (Secret Service man on direct land line probably?), says they know about 93 already.- 10:05 AM : Transponder on again, 8,200 feet and still southbound.- 10:06 AM : Lost radar contact (is that for sure the transponder, or main radar returns?).- 10:07 AM :they said they lost radar contact with UAL93 and it was heading turning one four zero heading."" Which will put him to what do you think? """" Uh I guess that put him down coming right just west of Dulles.If he stays on that heading of course."Thus I think I found something what has not been taken in consideration yet, by the members and pilots from Pilots for 911 Truth.At 10:07 EST the ATC'er remarks that they lost contact when the plane was 16 south of Johnstown (airport) and it was heading turning one four zero. Do they mean turning to 140° on a compass scale, or what does "heading turning" mean between one ATC and another ATC (or pilots).And is 16 south in miles or nautical miles? I guess NM.You can see back in one of my posts in the NTSB diagram from their 93 flight path, that the plane made a wide quarter circle till down south at the end.When you measure in Google Earth the distance from Johnstown Cambria County Airport (JST) to the official crash site, you find it to be 18.66 miles = 16.21 Nautical miles.The distance however from JST to that position given by the ATC'er for the moment he lost contact with the transponder for the last time, is far more, 39°51'0.00 N 78°46'0.00 W, and that's 32.36 miles = 28.12 Nautical miles (further southeast) from the crash site. Nearly two times further away in nautical miles. In a very desolated spot, see for yourself in Google Earth. Just fill in the above coordinates in Search.Thus, the questions which arise now, are :1. How can an experienced ATC'er give two data which exclude each other COMPLETELY, namely a rather precise last known geographical position in degrees, compared to a distance from JST in nautical miles?Which do not fit each other by any means!2. Could UAL93 dive from 8,200 feet at a 40° angle to the ground within 60 seconds, without breaking apart in mid air?I think it could, but I did not look into the mechanical aspects of its resulting speed over that 40° trajectory related to its airframe endurance, yet.3. They lost contact again at 10:06 EST, and talk on a bit about the heading at 10:07 EST, and the point where it then will come down, just west of Dulles Airport. They would not do that when the height reading and rate of descent at the last transponder loss time wasn't about the same as before. Woody, and Rob and others,In this thread there aren't any remarks about the ATC'er giving the distance from Johnstown Airport to the point where, at 10:06 AM EST, the ATC'er lost the transponder signal again.He gave at 10:10 AM the geographical coordinates for that signal loss spot, but at 10:07 already, also the distance in miles :Later, about 10:10 AM he gave the geographical coordinates for the point where they lost contact via the transponder signals on their screens.However, that's nearly 2 times further than the distance he gave a few minutes earlier for the same spot.See for more details this thread-post of mine at ATS, which thread I seemed to have hijacked, as usual when I get hooked to a subject :It's not really lost time to read the whole thread for those who believe that something stinks in the official UAL93 story.