A 20 Year Interview With Iain Mac an tSaoir by Seamus MacPhearson As part of our 20 Year Anniversary commemorations I went out in search of the founder of the Clannada. We caught up with him at his house in Chattanooga, TN. Tales are still told about the hospitality his family offered. When we contacted him to set up this interview, he lived up to those tales. He did not put any limits on the interview, and was very forthcoming. Iain was always a guy who people either loved or hated because of his "fish or cut bait" approach. He still doesn't hold back as he talks about the history of Gaelic Traditionalism, the Clannada, his conversion, and cultural beliefs. This is a little of that interview. Interviewer: How would you prefer I refer to you? Iain: “Iain Mac an tSaoir” is my given name in Gaidhlig. Iain or John, it doesn't matter to me. Most people still know me as Iain. My grandson is named Iain. Interviewer: Then Iain it is. You founded the Clannada na Gadelica? Iain:Tá mé ag cúisí sin! Interviewer: How did the Clannada come into being? Iain: I grew up in the 60's and 70's, and by my mid-teen years was really longing for something that was missing. I was fortunate that by the time I was in my late teens I was finding people like Wanbli Sappa, Lame Deer, Crow Dog and others who were willing to teach important lessons. Interviewer: But those were Lakota teachers? Iain: Yes, absolutely. But three things came out of those interactions. The first is that I came to understand the importance of cultural traditions. The second is that between those Traditionalist Lakota, and Traditionalists of other indigenous peoples, I saw firsthand the differences between traditional ethnic religion and other religions. Interviewer: So, did the Clannada come about from your interactions with those Traditionalists? Iain: Yes and no. Those wonderful teachers taught me to find the traditions of my own ancestors. That is why I have always stood by the First Nations against the "Plastic White Shamans" in defense of their traditions, and now ours. They taught me the priceless value of my ancestor's traditional ways, and to seek those ways. They even taught how to identify what is real and what isn't, who is and who isn't. They did not tell me where to find the cultural traditions. Interviewer: That is how you ended up wandering through a few other traditions? Iain: Yes. Based on common misconceptions I started reading stuff on ceremonial magic. Then the neighbor lady, who was like a second mom to me, started telling me about Wicca, and how it was what remained of the old Celtic religion. Having a large chunk of Scottish ancestry I started studying that. But the farther I went in that, the more clear it became that Wicca wasn't really Celtic. By '86 or '87, I was studying what Gaelic materials I could lay my hands on, and networking with other local people who expressed an interest. By '90 there were quite a few of us. By '93 we had the name, which as much as anything came about because we decided to put up a web presence. We claim the later 1994 start date because that was when we cobbled together our first constitution. To us, the bunreacht made it official. Interviewer: I get the sense from what you're saying that having a Bunraecht (constitution) was driven by the internet presence. Iain: Absolutely. There were a lot of pressures that came to bear from going online. Instead of finding like minded, culturally focused people, we were inundated by all sorts of things, few good, and all sorts of people, few genuinely looking for the ways of our Gaelic ancestors. Interviewer: Considering the time frames involved, is Gaelic Traditionalism a part of Celtic Reconstructionism? Iain: No, not at all. I think that spirit was moving in the hearts of a lot of different groups of people. Gaelic Traditionalism was never a part of the CR movement, and probably preceded it. Gaelic Traditionalism has always used the definitions of other indigenous peoples regarding what constitutes "Traditionalism". That was the gift of the Lakota teachers to me. GT is a culturally defined path, whose components are historically genuine, and culturally defined. Only historical Gaelic culture defines what its traditions are. CR has always been something other. There was some help given back and forth in the early internet days. I helped Imbas set up some of their structure some times after the Clannada had been up and running. Erynn Laurie helped us to identify and put measures into place to try and keep syncretists at bay. Hell, even Searles O'Dubhain co-authored an article with me. There was a lot of cooperative work going on between the two movements at the beginning, back before the second and third generation of "leaders" came along. I recently found where someone had hijacked an early article of ours. It was one of the first ones, from '93. It is kind of embarrassing to see that out there still, it was so horrible. Having our stuff hijacked was common back then. Back then it would get all over me! Now, I am kind of glad to see them out there, date tags still in place. It helps keep some of the dishonest people in the later generations from revising history. Interviewer: Why do you think later people brought a break down in cooperation? Iain: I think it is for the same reason you see a high attrition rate amongst those who look at GT. They look, they hang around for a little while, start trying to get you to modify the cultural tradition to fit their preconceived ideas, then most drop out. Many of those who drop show up in CR. A few stay there, and others drop from that as well. My take is that with GT there is a required shift in paradigm. With GT one has to assimilate into a Gaelic worldview, using Gaelic customs, and hopefully learning a Gaelic language. All of these are defined by the Gaelic cultures. It requires effort. The typical person though, and especially those with a syncretist background, simply want to plug bits and pieces into their pre-existing paradigms. Because of that, they gain no fundamental changes, no growth, no deep understanding. Interviewer: Paradigm changes are hard, they require study. By 'syncretist” you are referring to those who assemble their religious or spiritual paths from bits and pieces from here and there? Iain: That's right. As part of the paradigm change one has to study the language. Studying a new language even a little will help to rewire a person's brain. One has to hear the tales as the Tradition Bearers still tell them, one has to understand the cosmology, and one has to put the customs into living practice. So its not just study, but more importantly, living. The whole of the culturally defined tradition still exists. It never went anywhere. Interviewer: Can you give an example? Iain: Sure. In the cultural tradition, the cardinal points don't have watch towers or guardians per se. Just like with other Indo-European traditions, in their oldest form, there are seen to be cities. The winds come from those cities. Depending on which dialect of Gaelic you look at, there are as many as sixteen words for wind. Each wind has a direction and other qualities. But these come from the edge of the cosmos, from those cities. In the older pre-Christian sense, the old gods, the Aos Sí came from those cities. In fact, if you study the Old Irish, "sídhe" isn't just a mound or the Good Folk who now live in the mounds. "Sidhe" is also a word for a blowing wind. Now reread the Leabhar Gabhála na hÉireann, and particularly of the coming of the Tuatha Dé Danann in light of that. Interviewer: Okay, here is the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. How do you reconcile that to being a Christian? Iain: [laughter] I am still a Gaelic Traditionalist. I am a Gaelic Traditionalist Christian. There is just an added layer of understanding to see how all of that can still be true, and yet I still be able to see where the Faith is true as well. Do I believe that those we know as the "old gods" came to Earth from those cities? Yes. But I also believe that when they left their posts there, that Angels of God took up the ramparts to do God's will. My studies gave me insights that softened my walls against the Faith, and circumstances in my life opened me up to the work of God in my life, and I embraced Him. I am though, still a Gaelic Traditionalist. Interviewer: You wouldn't happen to have a list of those winds and their attributes would you? Iain: I do. But I won't just hand it out. Here is the deal. Lets take the Shining Ones, the Tuatha De, today in Ireland, these persons are associated with features in the landscape. In Scotland, where they are remembered, these persons are associated with the seasons and weather. Probably, based on linguistics, and surviving folk tales, 2000 years ago they were likely associated with the weather in Ireland as well. The beauty of the system is that the same winds, can come from the same cities at the edge of the cosmos, but effect different areas differently. So if you want to understand your place in the cosmos then get outside and experience the winds for yourself. See how they effect where you are. Where you are standing right now is after all, the center of the Universe. Interviewer: You have other lists you won't share as well, don't you? Iain: I do, I won't share those either. Let me give an example of why I won't. Its not just because I don't want to enable people to do the plug-n-play thing that will both dilute the cultural traditions, and lead the player to another frustrating dead end. There is a whole lot more. Back around '96, I posted a list of the traditional titles of jobs performed by people in the culture. Some of those functions weren't practiced anymore, but they were recorded in the tales and language. These would be various kinds of healers, mid-wives, various titles of people who performed pre-Christian religious functions, and more. I posted that and a couple of months later, there were people all over the internet who were claiming to be these functionaries. No understanding of the cultural significance of these functions and people, not a lick of training to even remotely be able to actually do those jobs, but there these clowns were claiming to be. Really? Really?! I managed to get that taken down, and never again repeated that mistake. Interviewer: Gaining understanding is where the real work is. Iain: But that is where the real pay off is as well. I mean yeah, someone could take the names of the winds, plug them into where they now call on something else, in a formula designed by ceremonial magicians. Their result will not be any different. And most likely, they will still be yearning, and seeking that elusive *something*. The void within will remain, and at some point they will depart, still missing that unknown but yearned for something inside. But by understanding, and getting to know the winds, one experiences that which definitely has influence on their life. At the very least, a boring abstract concept will give way to getting some fresh air and exercise. Interviewer: You are still talking about relationships. Iain: I don't know. Maybe. To varying degrees, yes. Relationships with an emphasis on experience with. Or maybe, experiences. This culture we live in is so devoid of experiences of depth. The people with iPhones, with their faces always glued to those little screens. They have relationships of a sort with those they text. But there is no real experience. Maybe something like that. But it is like that at every level. People don't realize what all dies so that they can live. They have no clue that there is a real relationship between they and the cosmos. They have no understanding that there is a relationship between every part of their person to the cosmos. Interviewer: Right. Iain: We don't have healthy families. We don't have healthy friendships. Our relationship with the created world is all out of sorts. And most people don't even have a clue that each prt of them even corresponds to a part of the universe, even at the most basic, personal level. Interviewer: Right. Iain: Starting at the most basic, in the Gaelic tradition there aren't the classical elements that so many associate also with the four directions. There is simply a list of things that make up the physical body of the cosmos. Interviewer: The dhúile. Iain: Thats right. Whether you see the components in that list as coming from the dismembered body of some primal deity as Pagans do, or directly from the will of God as Christians do, there is a list of elements. This list of things, elements, make up the physical world. They also have their corollary within each of us. That creates a definite way for each of us to relate to the world around us. If I pick up a rock, or see the mountains, and view them as the bones, then remember that I too have bones. Whether its rocks, or water as blood, or the sun as the face, and on and on. And there younhave a direct connection with the larger world around you. You gain this from direct experience, not what we were calling "the magical mystery tour". And this idea of the dhúile is likewise an attested ideology found in many Indo-European cultures. Twenty years later, the mainstream fad is the Vikings; now everyone wants to be like Ragnar Lothbrook. The truth is that you find these lists of things in Norse literature as well. Interviewer: And most of the people now flocking to Norse religion will end up moving on. Iain: That's exactly correct, because they aren't gaining the understanding, and therefore not finding fulfillment. They aren't establishing healthy relationships with themselves, their families, their communities, the world around them, or the Divine. You know, 20 to 30 years ago, everyone was wanting to be Tecumseh, or a Lakota pipe carrier. Then 10-20 years ago, the media driven fad was for everyone to be a Celt. Now everyone wants to be a Viking. Interviewer: So we have the dhúile, the concepts of microcosm-macrocosm, and maintaining relationships. Iain: Traditional culture is heavy on relationships. The exact thing that the globalists are trying to take away from us, is found in the cultural traditions. The direct connection made with the dhúile is one area where we see that. Then there is our place in the cosmos. The realm of the sky, which is the realm of the Daoine Sidhe, the Tuatha De, the Shining Ones. The land itself, with it's many features and creatures. And the waters around and under the land, which s the realm of the Fomoire. There are relationships there, maintained by customs. A good place to get started would be to get outdoors and let the face of the world shine down into your own face. It feels wonderful. Interviewer: Are there those kinds of connections to be found at other, for lack of a better word, levels? Iain: Absolutely. And the whole of it reenforces that there is no separation between the sacred and the mundane. Every thought, word, and deed, or even inaction, has impacts in the eternal sacred. What many people just don't get is that the customs simply keep our focus on the sacral nature of existence. Celtic religions are religions of custom. There are customs that are performed on a personal level, others that are on a family level, and yet others that are community wide in nature. Interviewer: Can you give examples of each? Iain: One that comes to mind for a personal custom is when I walk out at night, if I see the full moon, then I reach my hand in my pocket, flip a silver coin three times, while reciting a particular verse found in the Carmina Gadelica . That is a personal custom. Family customs can be as simple as family shrines and altars, or as elaborate as the Féile na Marbh. Community customs revolve around the four primary festivals, and the host of local festivals. This can be processions to the wells or rivers, white washing the stones, and any community wide feasts. There are a ton of customs. But these customs only have power if there is understanding of what they address in the greater cosmos. Interviewer: What kind of shrines do you keep? Iain: Let me first make a distinction between an altar and a shrine. And altar is where I go to pray, study, and ponder. Some people may do any of those things at a shrine. But for me, a shrine, at least on the level I am talking about, is a place to go and remember. Though, I am sure some people pray as well at shrines. An example from my home is a ancestor's shrine. I don't pray to my ancestors, though, I know some Traditionalists who do. On that shrine, which is actually an antique dresser, there are pictures of ancestors who have passed on, like my grandmothers, grandfather, great-grandfather, and others. There are also momentoes that have been passed on. Interviewer: If you don't pray to them then what do you do? Iain: I remember them. Thank God for them. Reflect on their deeds, and how their actions brought the family this far forward, and ponder how I can continue bringing honor to the family. Some of the momentoes give me a solid tangible connection to them that I can hold. My Grandfathers pocket watch is one such thing. And its not just my blood family. I have a 1911 that went ashore at Anzio, and it too sits on that shrine. When I pick up that pistol, I ponder the sacrifices made for me by the guy I got it from, and everyone else from his generation. I am not just alive, but I am free, because of them. Those who pray to their ancestors will often leave a glass of milk, or a shot of whiskey, and some cheese, on the shrine, as a commemoration or gift. Interviewer: Still an image of PC. Iain: You mean the pistol? Interviewer: In part. Iain: Are you going to tell me that Gaels of any age have been adverse to weapons? Hey Cú Chulainn you can't have that spear! Hey Finn, you can't have that sword! Hey Patrick Pearse, you can't have a rifle! Hey Bobby, well, you get the idea. Its like this, free people always own their own arms, or they are peasants. Want to explore Libertarian thought for a bit? Interviewer: No, that isn't why I am doing this interview. So if someone wanted to get started as a Gaelic Traditionalist, what would you suggest? Iain: Shortly after I was spending a lot of time with Wanbli Sappa and others I had the opportuinity to run into a few of the traditional story tellers from Ireland and Scotland. This would be like McDonald, and others who are the real tradition bearers. They have maintained the old tales in an unbroken line from the ancient to today. Some of those guys too are now gone. Most of them had apprentices who stepped up, memorized those tales, and customs, and still keep them going. If people can go hear those tales, and learn about traditions, then they should do it! They don't have to go to Ireland or Scotland, or even Nova Scotia. Often these people are brought in to Irish Festivals and Highland games all over the United States. Interviewer: What if these people can't be found? Iain: Start learning a Gaelic language. Start finding academically solid compilations of the old tales. Learn what they mean by also studying good academic works like Death, War, and Sacrifice" by Bruce Lincoln. Take from them not just the cosmological lessons, but also the moral lessons. And start putting actual customs back into practice. Get outside and experience the world. Interviewer: You do realize that the whole topic of morality is one that ruffles feathers? In fact, shortly after your conversion, some people tried to discount your work based on what they percieved as a strict morality being involved. Iain: Yeah, I know. The same people tried to discount everything I wrote while a Pagan, because I had converted to the Faith. What I have written withstood all of that, because I wrote the truth and cited my academically credible sources. If it was something I got from a Tradition Bearer, I tried to back that up with sources as well. Here is the deal with morality. You don't have to have a specific religion, or any religion at all, to know right from wrong. If you look at every society that has ever existed, except for the Western culture today, then you will find the same handful of things that are almost always considered to be wrong. That while other things are held up to be virtuous. There is ten thousand years of recorded human experience involved in that. The basic formula is that things that cause harm, promote disease, weakness, heartache and suffering, or keep people from being prosperous, is bad, evil and wrong. On the other hand, things that promote heath, peace, well-being, strength, contentment, longevity, and prosperity, are good and virtuous. It's that simple. And those teachings are in the old tales. Similar moral codes are found the world over, and far pre-date Christianity. Interviewer: I'd like to go pin you down a little and expand on those you call "syncretists". How do you feel about the work of those who diligently work to revive actual old practices? Do you consider Revivalists and Reconstructionists to be "syncretists"? Iain: I think that "revivalism" by any name is dangerous, culturally speaking. The thing that all serious people agree on is what defines Celtic cultures, whether it be one of the Gaelic cultures, or Brythonic. It is defined and its a good definition. That's the whole historical group of people speaking a Celtic language, with a Celtic worldview, customs, music, and the whole range of things that developed organically within those Communities that spoke, or speak, a Celtic language. For a thing, to be Celtic, it must organically develop within a community that speaks a Celtic language. As we are specifically speaking about Gaelic, within a community that speak Gaelic, as a natural, organic response to their experiences in their environment. One person, or two does not a community make. Interviewer: So you don't agree with Revivalists or Reconstructionists? Iain: That assumes that there is a need to revive something that has already evolved , and still exists, within the Gaeltachts. Interviewer: That sounds very Christian. Iain: And that sounds like a easy, cheap shot. Try again. Interviewer: How about for polytheists? Iain: Just because someone who lives in the New World doesn't have ready access to the Gaelic speaking communities in the Old Countries, doesn't mean that they there haven't already handled topics like that one and others. The traditions have evolved organically within the Gaelic speaking communities, organically, naturally, based on their historical and environmental experiences as a people. I assure you that not everyone, in every generation, has been Christian. Yet, Christian and Pagan, they have always gone together to the same rivers, always laid garlands at the wells, tied clooties to the trees, gone to the stones, and worked the customs, within the same worldview, with very similar understandings about the cosmos. What do you think you are missing? Are you missing the "magical mystery tour"? [laughter] Interviewer: Touché. How about the sacrifices? Iain: Offerings Of a personal nature have been votive for a very long time. We don't have a king, so we don't have to sacrifice horses. We don't go to war for ourselves, so we don't have to sacrifice prisoners of war. For Christians, the world renewing sacrifice is what happens as part of the Eucharist. For Pagan peoples there are the effigies. Occasionally, we hear tell of a periodic bull sacrifice, in some remote place or another, where they were always held. But those are by certain folk, in areas where they still speak the Gaelic. While as a Christian I cannot partake of meats dedicated to other gods, the evidence is that the most ancient form of communion was through the meats of animals sacred to specific deities. These would have been ritually slain and later consumed in the feasts. There may be a bit of that which still goes on. Take from that what you will. But effigies are the common form of modern sacrifice. Every other custom, and understanding is still in place. Always has been. To introduce something into the modern tradition, even something close to the original, where it has already been effectively, organically, evolved, is to create an anachronism. Anachronisms are harmful to what the people in Gaelic speaking communities have already developed for the culture. So what are you missing? Interviewer: Liturgy? Iain: You know what they did, and often how they did it. Harder for most is why, but diligent study reveals that as well. This isn't the magical mystery tour, its simple religion. You know what they did, often how they did it, how often they did it, and with study why they did it. You also have the sacred meters they used to wrote their poetry, and you know the liturgies would have been in poetic form. If a person can't go to a Gaeltacht, then maybe, the safest bet is to take the verses, incantations, and other things that arose within a Gaelic speaking community, really dig deep into them, and form a position of deep understanding, use names that are appropriate to you. Try to do it in the Gaelic. That may even be a good tool to start learning the language. Interviewer: Some of us have tried writing poetry in those meters. Iain: But you write it in the Béarla! You can't write Gaelic poetry, in Gaelic meters, in English! And there in lays the beginning of tragedies that arise from Revivalism. Guaranteed, in 100 years, people will be looking at the American Celtic Revival the same way they look at the British Celtic Revival of 150 years ago. Those people were absolutely sincere in their hearts, but the British Celtic Revival was the most damaging thing to happen to Celtic cultures bar any event. The American Celtic Revival will likely be seen as even worse. But who am I? Just be careful. Coinnigh sé fíor. If you love the culture, preserve it. Interviewer: Are you willing to take back up an active part in the movement? Iain: I am a husband, a father, a grand-father, a gardner, an outdoorsman, and a hard working employee. Does it sound like I have time? I dedicated too much time to the Clannada when my kids were young. I won't be making that same mistake with my grand-babies. Interviewer: How about as an adviser? Iain: Something I can do from retirement? Interviewer: Can I take that to the new council? Iain: We'll see. I will not join email lists. And all I can say is that nothing ever was lost. There is no reason to make up, or reassemble. Don't make up, take up. Keep it culturally real. There was of course more to the interview. It was good to finally meet him. I had seen some pictures of early Clannada gatherings. He was much younger then. I wasn't quite prepared to meet a much older gentleman. It was refreshing to find someone willing to share exactly what he thought. For my own part, I walked away encouraged to dig deeper into my ancestral culture and to "keep it real".