View Full Version : Overestimation of the Effects of Drugs

Ray33 Well, we all know that some drugs such as PCP can make someone absorb more damage before going down but I feel that there's a bit of mythology around this as well. I know that sometimes people on drugs can take a lot of damage but I think sometimes it is blown out of proportion. The other day I heard a guy from my town claim that he heard about a guy on PCP who took half a dozen bullets from the local police before sprinting across a busy highway. Then a semi truck slammed into him at over 60 mph and was completely total. To everyone's shock the guy on PCP stood up and kept running! I'm not a physicist but something tells me no drug is going to protect you from a several thousand pound vehicle.

old bear Half a dozen rounds maybe, but a semi at 60 MPH I don't think so.

TylerD45ACP NO chance. The vehicle could have hit him in an odd way, thus not incapacitating him. But, a vehicle smashing you head on at 60MPH, PCP or not your dead. IMO, yes it may have a slight effect on humans abilitys but I think Adrenaline is the biggest factor. That mixed with PCP/Meth may on occasion make human beings bodys have like a Nitrous system. A little extra boost. I have no personal experience with it so this is all speculation.

Sefner The story is suspicious. And there is a lot of mythical hokus pokus out there. Maybe a doctor can chime in, but here is what I know about drugs like PCP, cocain, acid, etc etc...



For our purposes, these drugs have the same effect on the brain as massive does of adrenaline...



They do not give the body any special powers beyond what the body is already capable of. The kicker is that the human body is capable of amazing things, we just have this thing called out brain the prevents us from performing these things because we might hurt ourselves. For instance, try to bite off your pinky finger. Can't do it? That's normal, your brain and your nerves prevent you from doing this. But it only takes the same amount of force to bite through your pinky finger as it takes to bite through a carrot. Psychoactive drugs like PCP remove the brain from the equation. To put it in other words, they let you bite off your pinky finger.



But the action is not limited to something as trivial as biting off your pinky. You've heard stories of people lifting cars so that their loved ones can escape out from under them? That's because the body's adrenaline rush removes the brain's perception of pain and limits and allow your muscles to perform to their max limit. We do not perform at this limit naturally because muscles in max strain can break bones, snap joints, and rip limbs off if they are not checked by the brain. Again, PCP removes the brain from the equation and lets the muscles operate at that level.



These both tie into the phenomenon that we experience when people on these drugs "take massive amounts of damage" before dying. In a normal person (you also see this in animals), life-threatening injury produces shock. This is a survival mechanism, the body shuts down anything not IMMEDIATELY needed for survival and concentrates on that immediate survival. So what constitutes not immediately needed for survival? You don't need to control your legs to survive immediately (in fact running will only cause more blood loss), so you'll lose control of those, you don't really need to see to survive immediately, so you will lose sight, in fact, you probably don't need ANY of your senses to immediately survive, so you will probably black out while your body tries to stem to flow of blood and pour as much energy into trying not to die in the next 10 seconds as is possible. When someone falls down after being shot (and most people don't even realize they are shot due to the effects of adrenaline), this is almost what is happening. They were not knocked over, they are not dead, they are in such shock because "OMG I JUST GOT SHOT" that their body enters into condition red and concentrates on one thing: damage mitigation.



But people on psychoactive drugs do not experience this because it's like their brains are constantly producing massive amounts of adrenaline, they do not experience the normal reactions that people should experience; their brains are not filtering. But these drugs will not magically harden skin and bone and let people get hit by a speeding truck only to get up and keep running with two broken legs. If they would have died under normal circumstances, they will still be killed be the action even under the effects of PCP.

DanThaMan1776 I AM a physicist.. and that man is dead.

Nickel Plated Yea I have doubts about the semi at 60mph too.



There are two things that happen when you are wounded. There is physical damage that prevents your body from functioning properly and there is the psychological aspect of " HOLY**** I JUST GOT SHOT!!!!" Some people when shot or otherwise injured will drop just because they are programmed to think that's what you are "supposed to do" when injured even if it's just a minor injury. Drugs can overcome that aspect to some degree and just ignore or not notice pain, but they don't do miracles. If your heart is shredded from a shotgun blast or your legs got torn off after getting caught under a semi at 60mph then drugs won't help you if your body just cannot physically function.



And I doubt a semi would be totaled after hitting someone even at 60mph. Might have a big dent in the grill, but I wouldn't say totaled.

troy_mclure in iraq the drug blend they give the suicide/car bombers/ insurgents is pretty effective at keeping them going.



saw quite a few of them keep comming from a burst from an m240b, and m249.



also saw a car bomb driver who did not detonate(nailed the stryker at 60mph) get out and try to run away with a shattered leg and blood fountaining from his neck.



also followed massive blood trails for hundreds of yards till we found the guys with multiple holes in the chest/thorax.

m&p45acp10+1 As a paramedic I have seen some crazy stuff. One very tiny petite woman on PCP tore up 4 of the biggest corn fed SO's you will ever see. She also bit the k-9 multiple times. She could not have weighed more than 95 pounds at most. It was not an easy task transporting her. We also left the stretcher with the ER staff as none of us wanted the displeasure of removing the restraints long enough to transfer her to one of the beds.

I transported and treated a guy that was hit by an 18 wheeler at 40 mph. He did survive. He was not running anywhere it broke half of the bones in his body, not to mention the internal, and intercranial damage.

There was a guy that was drunk in a shoot out with the police. He was still fighting after taking multiple hits to his chest, one round hit him in the gun hand, removing half of 2 fingers, he dropped the gun, and the cops then tackeled him, and overpowered, and restrained him. That is just form alcohol. He lived to be sentanced to 15 years flat.

highvel Years ago I stopped to help a Virginia State Trooper that was wrestling with a guy in the cruiser's passenger seat at the end of my driveway. The guy was on PCP and when I first saw the guy's eyes , he looked like a crazed wild animal, and I mean crazed!

About the same time two cars slid in and four detectives ran up, one got in the back seat and wrapped the shoulder belt around the guy's throat,holding the belt ends with both hands. He then put his knee in the seat back and yanked back on the belt with all he had, that calmed it down enough to get more sets of hand cuffs on the guy and get him in the back of another car.



I told the Trooper how much I admired him, and what he has to do everyday, but that's why I couldnt be a trooper, I'd woulda shot the sob!!!:D

He said that he didnt want to shoot the guy because it was the drugs, but if help hadnt arrived when it did he would have had no choice!

I have never seen, and hope I never do again, a look like that on a human!

Webleymkv Regardless of the effects of certain psychoactive drugs, there are certain circumstances under which the human body simply will no longer function properly. If someone loses enough blood, they will pass out. If a bone is broken, then the appendage in which it lies can no longer function normally. Whether or not someone feels pain or realizes that they've been injured, the fact of the matter is that they are still injured. If they are injured severely enough, then no amount of mind-altering substance can overcome it.

Skans Gee, if PCP turns you into a super-human machine that can withstand a truck hitting you at 60mph or 20 rounds of 9mm, then maybe I'll have to consider getting some PCP to keep around for tactical reasons.:D

Capt. Charlie ....or 20 rounds of 9mm....



Careful Skans! After that gets passed around a bit, it'll become 9 rounds of 20mm, much like many stories that get passed around :rolleyes: ;) :D.

TylerD45ACP Great posts guys. Sefner great post about that psychological aspect. Thats a very good point. I think people need to get over the pre-programmed response of "I'm shot, I need to drop." Adrenaline is a very powerful drug as well and one that is naturally produced by the body. Im convinced that plays the major factor. Im sure most of you being gun buffs you have heard of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. RIP the 2 agents Platt killed. If not look it up. It took 12 rounds including buckshot to the feet(which still didnt) stop this criminal named Platt. He partner was not a contributor to the firefight but took 6 rounds including face and was able to wake up 1 1/2 minutes later and duck behind cars and try to get to his escaping partner. Platt's brachial was spewing the entire time since he had a fatal 1st hit but did not STOP him(1.3L of blood in right plural cavity at death.) He had a Mini 14 FBI had all handguns and 1 shotgun. Both of these men were on NO drugs whatsoever according to autopsy. Get Dr. Andersons book about it if your interested. Teaches you a lot about what people can really do. From a forensic standpoint. Some intense photos as well.

grey sky 30 years of detoxing people under my belt Never saw any of this ever. Have heared plenty of stories though. Don't underestimate a motivated person. Motivated to get away,motivated not to be beaten up, motivated not to be raped in jail, motivated to compleate a given task, motivated to survive. People are amazing.

TylerD45ACP Exactly, grey sky. The human body is an amazing machine. If I ever have to shoot to kill, Im automatically going to assume its going to fail to stop. Why? Worst case scenario, and like sky said a motivated person can be an incredible thing. Motivated to take my life at all costs may not be very easy to stop. Even after the heart is destroyed the human body can move voluntarily for 10-15 seconds. Thats enough time to do a lot of harm. Im going for the biggest area I can hit (COM) and the head if it fails to stop the threat. Im not taking any chances against the crazy human machine that wants to do me harm.

45ACPShooter Yes the body is amazing but at the same time it can only take so much punishment. It's possible someone could take 12 rounds and survive but the idea that someone could take the impact of a 16,000 to 20,000 pound vehicle going at 60 mph and completely total the vehicle yet survive and run away unharmed themselves is too ridiculous to even consider. The body is constructed of bones and muscles and no drug or no level of motivation is going to turn that into concrete and steel.



Motivation and bravery only takes someone so far, the French command at the beginning of World War I believed that a motivated force could overwhelm at enemy with machine guns, obviously the years of statement and horrific loses proved otherwise.

dancer I am also a physicist and agree that the man is dead based on physical damage from the energy transfer.



However, I am also an analyst and an observer and I witnessed most of a shooting event that occurred on Memorial Day of this year. A local man unexpectedly interrupted a home invasion in the middle of the day. He had agreed to "check on" a home whose occupants were away on vacation for several days, and he'd driven by on his way home from Sunday church. Noting an unexpected vehicle at the residence, he stopped and went to the front door of the house. When he entered he was threatened at gunpoint by a single male who secured him to a chair. Feeling his kidnapper was sufficiently irrational and out of control to kill him, he managed to get to his feet and threw himself out of a double-glazed window, still tied or taped to the chair, and landed on a deck where the chair broke and allowed him to release himself from it. During this escape phase, his kidnapper fired five 9mm rounds into his back, each round a strike -- four in the torso and abdomen and one in an arm.



The victim then ran 25 yards to arrive at his pickup truck, which he started and drove 100 yards to the nearest occupied dwelling (right beside my mother's home, where I was visiting at the moment) where he saw a resident out-of-doors and asked for help, "Call 911. I've been shot!" After the heads-up from the sound of the shots a little earlier, I'd gone outside my mom's house about this time and I helped to load him into the neighbor's pickup truck bed and he was driven immediately to the hospital 12 miles away. His most obvious injuries were cuts on the right side and arm from breaking through the window. He was lucid but becoming "shocky".



The victim was a heavyset white male, about 60 years old and six feet tall, 260 pounds, and a self-employed auto mechanic by trade. No drugs, but lots of adrenaline.



The kidnapper/invader used the neighborhood's focus on the victim to escape the house he'd invaded and enter a large mountainous wooded area just across the street, where he stayed undercover for several hours before finally surrendering to the now-assembled multitude of LEOs. Supposedly, he did a perfect job of losing the weapon, which has still not been found.



The victim endured several hours of surgery, including removal of a couple of feet of colon. He was able to go home about a week after the incident.



I'm not proud of my response to the shots heard -- I should have been more aware but circumstances were what they were. I was CCW as always, but would not have chosen the become personally involved once I knew the seriousness of the situation. My attention would have appropriately remained on my mother unless it appeared I was the only one who could intervene in a life-or-death event.

Ray33 ^^^If someone could survive being shot 12 times how is it ridiculous that someone couldn't survive a head on impact with a semi trailer at 60 mph, total the vehicle, and in turn because of the drugs run away? I'm not saying it happened, it sounds a little fishy to me too but I wouldn't rule it out like that.

Doc TH The shooting and contact with a multi-ton semi truck at 60 mph are just not comparable. If pistol bullets do not impact the central nervous system or the heart, they will cause disability or death by blood loss. So absent a CNS or cardiac hit, or a hit to a major blood vessel such as the aorta, carotid arteries, or inferior vena cava, unconsciousness may take a very long time and might never happen. On the other hand the energy transfer from a multi-ton truck at 60 mph (880 fps), except in the instance of a very glancing blow, will transfer enough energy to a human body to literally turn it into jelly. I have seen it close up.

TylerD45ACP I dont think a man would survive that impact. I was just talking about the human body in general. 60mph Semi head on your dead. Unless its some freak occurence like a previous poster said a glancing blow. Most likely I would say dead though. Human are capable of great feats but not eating a hit from a semi truck.

highvel The French ran toward a machine gun nest?

Just kidding:D

entropy5 PCP generally has 2 effects on a human, anesthesia (can't feel pain, stress, etc.) and psychosis (not in touch with reality, hallucinations, magical thinking, etc.). When these effects are taken together under the influence, the user can't feel he/she has been injured or stressed, and has no idea of how to cognitively react when injured or stressed. The body may indeed run down due to blood loss or grievous injury, but the psychosis prevents the recognition that the body should run "out of gas".

TylerD45ACP Agreed. I think the drugs play more of a factor in the non lethal situations. It turns resisting arrest into a brutal fight. Any usually resulting in the BG getting tazed. The Lethal situations even worse but I dont think it plays a massive factor. It gives the body a nitrous oxide like boost ,mixed with adrenaline, could supercharge a person.

Therealkoop The story might be a bit of an exaggeration, but its not completely impossible.



Like many stories posted already, the human body is capable of extreme durability under the effects on JUST adrenaline. Crazy things happen subconciously to increase survival. People have had thier heads hit by .308 and lived, 90% of people (i think) survive handgun wounds. Theres plenty of stories on law officer, 6 times COM with a .357 mag and lived, 16 times with a .40 and was able to keep fighting even with a foot nearly removed. You can be active for 20 seconds with an unbeating heart.



The body will eventually fail, but it can stay active for a superhuman amount of time even with mortal wounds.



The truck hitting a person going 60? Sure, they could survive. There are multiple accounts of people hitting the earth at terminal velocity and surviving, one instance where the man was able to stand up and walk afterwards.



Is it likely he survived long afterwards? Hell no! And if he did thats just a testament to modern medicine.



Add in some PCP to the mix and things get crazy.

Rob228 Isn't there a theory out there regarding taking out drugged up people with pelvis shots? I've heard a little of it, something along the lines of a large diameter pistol bullet to the pelvis (Shattering it is the goal) will render someone physically unable to stand.

N.H. Yankee Wasn't human, some kind of an android. A dozen bullets maybe if all were superficial hits, a 60mph hit=DOA.



Actually there are reports of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters taking numerous hits high on drugs. I do belief it can make a difference with hits that are not immediately lethal.

Xyas I'm iffy about the truck, but it's totally possible for the guy to survive the bullets.



As mentioned by previous posters, a person's body is basically (in the purposes we're talking about) stopped by 3 things - central nervous system disruption (if your brain isn't connected to anything through the spinal cord, you can't move anything voluntarily), lack of oxygenation (loss of perfusion, blood loss etc., - if no oxygen gets to the brain, the brain can't voluntarily control what's going on, organs and muscles shut down, etc.), and a mental perception of what is happening to the body (what some of you call shock, also called acute stress reaction - the mind responds to terrifying stimuli and basically starts shutting things down).



Let's talk about the 3rd example, the acute stress reaction. Your body has a bunch of neurotransmitters and stuff. The ones that are pretty much responsible for this acetylcholine on pre-ganglionic receptors that end up releasing things like adrenaline (epinephrine), nor-epinephrine, and other catecholamines. PCP can decrease these effects on the pre-synaptic neurons in some parts of the brain, and increase them in others. So you can get increased blood pressure, increased heart rate, etc., without a person actually having actually having "shock". PCP also works on other receptors (dopamine, NMDA, etc.) which ends up leading to several things like amnesia, analgesia, and disassociation of the body and mind (which prevents the body from freaking out and shutting down!). We use a related drug called Ketamine in the ER sometimes to put people out if we have to intubate them. After speaking to some of these patients, they tell me that they felt like they were another person in the room, or flying over their body.



If it all seems very confusing, it's because it is! Psyche medications are very complicated, the receptors and neurotransmitters are all related and can all have different type of effects depending on where they're located, how they're activated, if they're inhibited, etc.



Anyways, I kinda got distracted and forgot what my point was. Basically...a person on drugs is still stoppable. Just remember, that 3rd way of stopping them probably isn't going to work (what most people call "shock). Because of the catecholamines (things like adrenaline/epi) going around in their body, the lack of perfusion route (a different form of shock) won't be your best bet either (although it will still work eventually, the body just runs out of oxygen and shuts down). CNS disruption will always stop a person the quickest.



If you have anymore questions or I kinda confused you or made things seem really complicated...it's because when it comes to psyche meds, they are! I am no expert on them but I did have a lot of schooling on them so I hope I cleared some things up and helped out some! Let me know if you have any more questions, and I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability.



~Doctor of Pharmacy

Sefner Excellent post Xyas!



I do have a question, in normally functioning people, what processes do brains in shock undergo? Is it different per incident or person? I know some people shut down at different degrees of stress (if stress is the right word)... for instance in the Miami shootout those guys were able to just keep going, but then you have some people who go into shock when they haven't even been hit. What is the difference that causes that?



And as for the pelvic shot question. There is a thread somewhere about that topic. I think it boils down into that the pevlic shot is an "ok" alternative to COM. The reason is that it takes a very direct pelvic hit to render a person unable to stand. Your accuracy has to be spot on and you need a little luck. But there are also many major arteries that run through that region so with some luck a defender may hit one of those arteries, but the bleed out would take time.

Xyas Without getting into too much detail (I have to get going in 5 minutes but I'll answer your question quick), the "shock" that a normal person undergoes is just due too basically a dump of catecholamines (adrenaline/epinephrine, norepinephrine as examples) into the body. You probably have heard of this as "fight of flight". Some people get amped up and fight. Other people just run or can even faint. It all basically depends on the situation. You'd be surprised how much control your mind has over your body as mentality goes. Off the top of my head I'm not sure what exactly causes the fainting of a person, sometimes it may just be hyperventilation (breathing too quickly), the person not breathing because they're holding their breath, or some other mechanism that I'm not aware of without researching somewhat, possibly related to something like myotonia congenita (note this wouldn't be the actual condition the person undergoes but it may be related mechanistically).





I don't like the term shock when referring to combat situations where a person "goes into shock" and faints or what have you. Technically there are only 4 types of shock (could argue for the 5th). They are: hypovolemic, cardiogenic, distributive, and obstructive. I can go into more detail on each one later.



Sorry I couldn't be of more help! I'll check back later and see if i could find more information out about it.

Rampant_Colt I'm beginning to see a most unusual pattern with Ray33 here..



My sig is from a post he made in this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4198528#post4198528

ClayInTx Ray33 didn’t claim this to be true. He also expressed doubt about the semi.



No harm in asking what others think of the tale.

GunsForSale.com For what its worth, I've been a cop for more than 10 years. In that time, I've dealt with a lot of violent offenders under the influence of drugs/alcohol. PCP only once, but lots on meth and crack.



These guys can take more physical damage than would seem rationally possible. Guys with a broken leg running on it for example.



Mas Ayoob documented one such case in "Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun." NYPD encountered a heroin addict in an armed robbery. The armed assailant was shot at less than seven yards with 12 gauge "00" buck (9 pellets) in the chest. The subject then began running and was struck a second time with 9 more 00 pellets, this time in the back. The subject still did not go down.



Another officer firing a .38 Special, loaded with 148 grain wadcutters(!), struck the guy in the butt, breaking the pelvis. Only then did the guy go down.



But the fight still wasn't over. The offender pushed himself up and pointed his gun at one of the officers again. Again, 9 pellets of 00 buck struck the offender in the torso.



The offender dropped his gun, but continued to crawl away. He later died of his wounds.



My take-away on this one? Any drug can make an attacker almost superhuman, as this heroin addict absorbed 27 00-buck pellets plus a .38 round before he was no longer a threat. Considering a non-expanding 9mm round isn't much bigger than a 00-buck pellet, how many times would you have had to shoot this guy with a pistol before he was no longer a threat?

Sefner Guns, the argument that I am making is that any human could also take that amount of punishment but in normally operating humans their neurological responses get in the way. Maybe Glenn can chime in on this. Like Xyas said, drugs effect the brain's normal functions such as pain reception and stress. If you remove a person's normal responses to extreme pain or bodily injury (what I call stress and what Xyas calls all his fancy medical words :p) then their brain does not react in the manner that it should. It just keeps operating in its current, drug fueled state. That is what brings about these people that just seem to "keep going"; because their brains aren't there to tell them to knock that crap off.

Double Naught Spy I appreciate you physicists noting that the guy must be dead...and y'all would know because you are physicists and know about things like energy transfer. However, people do get hit by trucks on the highway and live. The problem is not a simple one and not one you are likely to model very easily. It all has to do with things such as whether or not the person is hit and thrown, hit and goes over, has feet planted or is airborne when hit, and how directly hit.



A paramedic buddy of mine worked a fatality accident where a pickup hit two guys crossing the highway late at night. The guy that died apparently had his feet planted and was hit and driven to the ground violently. The 2nd man survived and was upright and talking to the driver when the paramedics arrived. He actually jumped into the air before being hit, caught the top of the hood and then glanced off the windshield (shattered) and went airborne up several feet above the truck. He had bruises nearly all over, but his head was not hit. His worst wounds were from impacting the pavement. He went to the hospital for Xrays, but had no broken bones.



This lady was hit by a big truck and lived.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/r/18429840/detail.html



This guy shot himself in the head and then was hit by a truck on a highway and lived...

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/06/s-african-man-shoots-self-in-head-is-hit-by-truck----and-lives/1



Check out these idiots. One got hit twice by vehicles on the highway and survived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKJ8PVHw4GY



Not a truck, but a clear example of how being hit by a car at highway speeds can result in a less than lethal impact...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eff_1204667347

Therealkoop Thanks double



Like he said, its not a simple energy transfer equasion. And even then, the amount of damage a person can sustain before dying is always subjective.



And thats without PCP.

Ray33 I'm beginning to see a most unusual pattern with Ray33 here..



My sig is from a post he made in this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...28#post4198528



What's this unusual pattern that you see? That I have an interest in how people under PCP and other drugs react to attack because I'm concerned about self-defense? Yes, then I would say there is a pattern because I want to ensure that I do everything to stop someone who means to do me harm.

ZeSpectre we all know that some drugs such as PCP can make someone absorb more damage before going down



Well, we don't actually "all know that". What I know is that the human body has some really astounding mechanisms for survival and if the psychological part of the equation is removed (say by drugs such as PCP that make the user stop caring about pain and injury) then the body will frequently carry on for quite some time even though it has been dealt what is, ultimately, a mortal injury.



As for the Tractor-Trailer strike, unlikely but not impossible. My best friend's little brother was struck by an automobile moving at about 45mph. He was thrown about 7 feet into a cinderblock wall and struck hard enough to crack cinderblocks. He required multiple surgeries, had to re-learn how to talk, and will always be somewhat disabled on his left side, but he survived and lives a productive life. The toughness of the human body and modern medicine can do amazing things.

markj PCP is an animal tranq used on pigs mostly. I have some in the barn used for horses. It makes them kinda woozy, in a dream like state. Cant imagine what it would do to a person.



In the movie pappillion they chewed coca leaves, made them not aware of the pain and let them run a lot longer.

Double Naught Spy Overestimation of the effects of drugs? Rookie Linda Lawrence was the first female officer killed in Louisiana during a monumental fight between her and her training partner against a guy on cocaine. The perp was shot a total of 10 times including one near contact head shot that bifurcated the lobes of his brain and exited the rear of his skull and yet did not kill him. In fact, he went down and then got back up and continued the fight. Here is a link to the incident that is an interesting read. I have seen the recreation video of it that apparently was made with input (narration?) of the surviving officer (listed in the article).



http://books.google.com/books?id=krnvvN-iSoEC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=linda+lawrence+killed+in+line+of+duty&source=bl&ots=RoZiE_P-aM&sig=cV8Mg4GBObcLh-bf1myb2QceKMg&hl=en&ei=gdB1TMvlJIOFOLnPie4G&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=linda%20lawrence%20killed%20in%20line%20of%20duty&f=false

Ray33 ^^^ If someone can survive long enough to keep fighting with a destroyed brain why isn't it possible for someone to keep fighting just because their head was cut off if they're motivated enough and on a powerful enough drug?

5.56RifleGuy Separating the lobes of the brain is different than destroying it. Doctors do that as a corrective surgery to stop intense seizures in some patients.



Thinking that someone could continue fighting after being decapitated is foolish. The body gets is told what to do by the brain. Without the brain there is no deliberate action. There may be twitching and such, but none of it would be caused by anything other than chance.

Teuthis The most powerfu, sustaining drug is arenalin. One can do marvelous feats when adrenalin is pumping through one's body. But there are limits. If the nervous system is shut down via trauma, even adrenalin fails. If damage acrues to the body that disrupts the structural integrity,one will be incapacitated.



I believe that what is intended in the legends is from people who are significantly affected by narcotic drugs and do not experience the extreme fear and physcological distruption that normally occurs with gunshot wounds. That state, combined with adrenalin can allow a wounded person to continue to funtion for a time where a more aware person would be experiencing fear and the need for help.

Major Beef This is from another thread not too long ago:



"I heard a story about a guy on PCP who was beheaded with an axe and survived long enough to take the axe out of the executioner's hand and kill him with it."



http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1132/animrofl2.gif

markj A lobotomy isnt a death thing. It will calm a person down and aid in siezures. The neighbors girl a twin had a lot of her brain taken out cause of siezues, she wasnt the sharpest knife in the drawer but she didnt suffer from them after that operation.



Brain injuries may not be lethal, many documented brain injury survivors out there if you look. I studied this after first wife had a brain anuryism and operation, the operation paralyzed her right side tho.

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