michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[music]

Today: Across the U.S., parents and school districts are wrestling with whether the country’s most popular and profitable sport is too dangerous for kids. Ken Belson on how that debate is playing out in one Texas town. It’s Monday, January 27.

james harrell harris jr. We’re in the eastern, extreme eastern part of the state. It’s kind of Central East Texas. It’s 50 inches of rain a year, pine trees. Used to be cattle everywhere. Now mostly people like me have pine trees, and the cows are gone. It was a nice way of life. I like cows. They’re cheaper than a psychiatrist. [CHUCKLES] You want me to introduce myself? Yeah, I’m Dr. James Harrell Harris Jr. I was born in 1942. I’ve lived most my life in Marshall, Texas.

michael barbaro

Ken, tell me about Jim Harris.

ken belson

Well, Jim’s a retired small-town doctor.

james harrell harris jr. I live on a ranch. And I used to have cattle, but I’ve sold everything now. I’ve been in Texas most of my life. ken belson So you’re never leaving, huh? james harrell harris jr. Oh, maybe if the wind blows my ashes away after I’m dead. That’ll be about it.

ken belson

And Jim had taken up an interest in football, which he had played as a kid.

james harrell harris jr. It was a rite of passage. I didn’t have any friends who didn’t play football. I loved it when I was big and fast. Midway through the seventh grade, everybody else started growing and had hair under their arms, and I was still singing in the choir.

ken belson

Jim starts emailing me. And he’s asking me about the stories I’m writing. And he doesn’t go away. I write him back. He writes again. And it goes on for months like this. And he’s very earnest and curious. So I finally just decide to call him. And I learn he’s from Marshall, Texas. Town of about 25,000, about three hours north of Houston.

james harrell harris jr. High school football is a big deal. ken belson What is it about football? james harrell harris jr We have several middle-sized towns in East Texas, and their identities were partially formed by their prowess at football. I mean, I can name you all the football heroes from about 1940 on at Marshall High School.

ken belson

And Jim was reading a lot of the stories I was writing about a disease called C.T.E.

james harrell harris jr It was frightening to anybody who’s ever seen a slice of brain. I mean, that was an awakening for me.

ken belson

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy is a degenerative brain disease. And then really around 2010, 2011 is when it kind of exploded into the public domain, if you will —

archived recording The football world has been rocked this week by the sad death of a former star.

ken belson

— with the suicide of a player named Dave Duerson, who was a famous player on the Chicago Bears.

archived recording Teammates say Dave Duerson was also exceptionally smart and kind, which is why they were shocked when last week, the 50-year-old killed himself with a gunshot to the chest.

ken belson

And he left a note that said, explicitly, I want my brain saved. And so he shot himself in the chest, so his brain could be preserved.

archived recording And now to the death of former N.F.L. superstar Junior Seau.

ken belson

And then the following year, an even bigger case involving a linebacker named Junior Seau, who was a very famous player, and was in the Hall of Fame.

archived recording Pro football legend Junior Seau was found dead Wednesday morning by his girlfriend, after police say he shot himself in the chest at his Oceanside, California home.

ken belson

And because it can only be found when players die, the researchers have been interviewing the families of those players and finding out what things they were exhibiting, what kind of symptoms.

archived recording It’s become a who’s who of former N.F.L. stars, enough to line a wing of the Hall of Fame, who’ve complained about or were diagnosed with ailments connected to repeated blows to the head.

ken belson

And Jim Harris is reading about a lot of these cases involving these football players.

james harrell harris jr. I trusted the N.F.L. And once or twice a year, they would have one of their doctors publish an article about how safe everything was. I didn’t really scrutinize it on the internet or anywhere else.

ken belson

And he discovers that the N.F.L. was actually trying to tell a contrary story. That in fact, this isn’t that dangerous, and trying to play down the result of the other research. And so I think he starts to feel a bit betrayed that the N.F.L., like the tobacco industry, has tried to produce medical research to play down the dangers that are emerging by nonpartisan researchers.

michael barbaro

So for him, this is just a question of pure medicine and research.

ken belson

That’s how it started out. But then Jim started to think about his own life. His son played football, quite actively, through high school.

james harrell harris jr. Well, all my boys were fasting. But Rush was muscular to start with. And I mean, even when he was 3 or 4 years old, he could throw a football further than the older brothers could. And you know, I couldn’t believe he was starting in the seventh and eighth grade. You know, I used to go to practice if I happened to be off. I encouraged him to play.

ken belson

And he discovers that his son had several concussions that he did not realize.

james harrell harris jr. You know, I really feel like an idiot now. And I feel guilty as hell. Does he have to worry on down the line? You’re damn right he has to worry on down the line. And don’t think he’s not worrying, because he’s talked to me enough about C.T.E. and knows enough about it, that he knows he’s got a risk of early dementia. That’s, you know, that’s a burden.

michael barbaro

So what is Jim Harris, now armed with all this information, feeling guilty about his son and his role in encouraging him to play football, what does he do?

ken belson

Jim starts by making a giant slide show —

[music]

james harrell harris jr. I made a few talks around town, that sort of thing.

ken belson

— and taking it to various community centers, and trying to get on lecture circuits, if you will —

james harrell harris jr. If I had known how easy it was to do a really good PowerPoint presentation, I would have been a dangerous son of a gun for the last few years.

ken belson

— and telling people about this disease, C.T.E., and how it’s been associated with football. And ultimately what he wants to convince people of is to get people to stop playing football.

james harrell harris jr. It was obvious that if you were going to do something about the dangers of football, you needed to start at an early age.

ken belson

The things that Jim is talking about reflect the concerns of a lot of the parents who were starting to pull their kids out of football. And around this time, another youth league shuts down. And the school board votes unanimously, 7 to 0, to shut down seventh grade tackle football. And Jim also gets involved in the Boys & Girls Club, which has the largest youth program in town as well.

james harrell harris jr. I had a friend that ran that Boys & Girls Club, and I had been a donor. But I wanted to make sure that none of my donations were going for tackle football.

ken belson

And he starts banging the drum there to shut down the tackle football program.

james harrell harris jr. And I made a talk to their board.

ken belson

And ultimately he succeeds.

james harrell harris jr. They voted to quit playing tackle.

michael barbaro

Wow, big deal.

ken belson

Big deal. So these are three of the biggest youth tackle football programs in Marshall. And the fact that they shut down very quickly amounted to a big sea change.

michael barbaro

So it sounds like football as Marshall, Texas knew it, for young people, is very quickly over.

ken belson

Well, you would think so. But something interesting happens. Parents in town still love football. And so they start taking matters into their own hands. And they start two new youth football leagues for kids as young as 5 years old.

michael barbaro

Hm. So these kind of grassroots teams start cropping up, despite the fact that the community seems to have rendered a pretty firm judgment on the sport.

ken belson

Yeah, these are very much grassroots efforts, just basically dads raising money in the community to buy pads, helmets, old equipment, and joining leagues to try and keep football alive.

spencer taylor Who’s your favorite team in football? serenity Titans. spencer taylor That’s right.

ken belson

And one of those dads is a fellow named Spencer Taylor.

spencer taylor Go what? serenity Go Titans!

michael barbaro

And who is Spencer Taylor?

ken belson

Spencer is a huge football fan.

spencer taylor You better — serenity Titans up. spencer taylor You better Titan up, that’s right. [FOOTBALL GAME PLAYING ON TV]

ken belson

He’s in his 40s, grew up in Houston, moved to Marshall.

spencer jr. I’m number 4 this game.

ken belson

He records on videotape his son’s games.

spencer taylor Is that you up top? spencer jr. I think so, around the 45. spencer taylor Go show.

ken belson

And then rewatches those recordings with his son to critique how his son was playing.

spencer jr. Football, you’re going to get hit hard.

ken belson

Both his son Spencer Jr. and Raijon play.

nevaeh [Cheering] Score 6 again, we want to win, Mavs, score 6.

ken belson

Daughter’s a cheerleader.

nevaeh We the Marshall Little Mavs, we ain’t never no rookies, we’re the best team ever, we will take your cookies.

ken belson

He’s watching on the weekends, he’s in a fantasy football league. He’s your kind of quintessential football dad.

spencer taylor You daddy’s baby? serenity Yeah. spencer taylor You going to play football? serenity Not today. I’m going to do it later. spencer taylor Later. serenity Yeah.

ken belson

So as these established football programs are shutting down and these new youth football programs are starting up, Spencer decides he’s going to become a coach. So he joins, along with a bunch of other dads, to start up two new teams.

michael barbaro

And Ken, who is signing up for these new teams?

ken belson

Mostly black kids, somewhere in the order of 90%.

spencer taylor I’d say majority black, a little bit Hispanic, and barely any white. ken belson Which is interesting, because the demographic of the town now is about one-third black, one-third white, and one-third Hispanic. What do you make of the fact that some of the white kids are pulling out of the sport? And you know, the dynamic of the town has changed, too. But I mean, what do you make of the fact that a greater percentage of African-Americans are now filling the team than in the past? spencer taylor Yeah, I don’t know. I guess I spend more time around black parents. So it’s kind of — I don’t know. I haven’t really talked to any of my Caucasian friends that have kids playing in the high school sports now. I guess I have never really had that conversation, to ask them, how come you didn’t let your kid played in Little League? Probably would be a good question to ask, just to find out.

ken belson

In some ways, Jim Harris’s message is sinking in in the white part of town. Parents are moving their kids into baseball and soccer, among other sports. And Hispanic families are more likely to put their kids into soccer programs. In the black community in Marshall, most parents that I spoke to seemed to think that the risks to football, although they acknowledged them, are far outweighed by the benefits.

michael barbaro

What do you mean?

ken belson

Well Spencer tells a story about one of his sons, Spencer Jr. —

spencer taylor Spencer’s first year playing, he was real, real small. Spencer told me he was worried about getting hit, but he wasn’t really scared.

ken belson

— and how he was nervous about getting hit. And then in practice one day —

spencer taylor And so we lined them back up. Spencer was running the ball. And this time, they hit each other hard. It was hard. It made a loud thud. They hit each other. They both fell on the ground. Spencer kind of rolled over a little bit. The other kid rolled over a little bit.

ken belson

Spencer, the dad, is worried that his son’s unconscious.

spencer taylor First I got scared. I thought maybe he was hurt. I thought he was out. Felt like he was on the ground forever.

ken belson

So he runs up to him to take a look at him.

spencer taylor I hope he’s not seriously hurt. That’s what was going through my mind.

ken belson

His kid eventually bounces up, and Spencer starts talking to him.

spencer taylor He rolled over and got back up. I could see he was a little bit dazed. I told him, go get something to drink. And he said, I’m fine, Daddy. It kind of goes in slow motion the first time you see your kid get hit. And I looked in his eyes, I could tell he was O.K. And I said, man, how did that hurt? And he said, no sir. And I said, that’s about as hard as you’re ever going to get hit out here. That’s one of the biggest kids out here. Nobody’s going to hit you harder than that. From that point on is kind of when he started really developing his game. That was one of the things that was holding him back from giving a little more effort, was because he was scared of the contact. Because everyone always makes it seem like a big hit is such a painful thing. If you’ve never done that before, it looks painful. But when you have all those pads on, it’s really not. And I think that’s when he finally figured that out. I’ve been trying to tell him that, but it’s one of those things you can’t make somebody understand. They’ve got to experience it themselves.

ken belson

And at that point, his son realizes that this is the game of football, and I can conquer it.

michael barbaro

And what is the point of that story to Spencer?

ken belson

I think Spencer’s trying to instill a sense of discipline and also confidence in his son.

spencer taylor He starts feeling tougher. And I guess what they call it now, he had a little swagger about him then. You have confidence knowing that I can play this game now fully instance — more than just, I’m going to go catch balls as a receiver, or throw a pass. Now I can handle the contact piece of it, too.

ken belson

Spencer thinks that the discipline and confidence that you get from football comes from getting knocked down and getting up again. Those are the benefits to the sport that he sees as a dad. It has a sense of family. The kids form relationships with the coaches.

spencer taylor There’s a handful of kids that I’d say I have affected positively, I hope, more than negative. Once they come to my house and they’re here a lot, I treat them just like my kids. And so punishment’s the same. I get on them the same, I reward them the same. And so this is their chance to show what they can do, and might find out that they’re real good at this.

michael barbaro

So clearly these kids are benefiting personally and socially from playing football. But wouldn’t they get the same benefits from any team sport — from soccer, or from basketball, from baseball?

ken belson

In many ways, that’s true. And for a lot of dads, too, and parents, they think that football offers yet more lessons. And that primarily is because it’s a contact sport. It’s a sport where you get hit. You you have to learn to get up, dust yourself off, and do it all over again. And for all of these parents in Marshall, football’s a way to get their kid to college.

spencer taylor Some of these parents, that’s what they push on the kids. They need their kids to succeed in a sport, to hopefully get a scholarship to college one day.

ken belson

To win a scholarship, get a better education, maybe get a better job.

michael barbaro

And of course, perhaps, make it to the big leagues.

ken belson

Perhaps. A handful have, including from Marshall.

michael barbaro

Really?

ken belson

Yes. Odell Beckham’s father came from Marshall, and Y.A. Tittle, Hall of Fame quarterback, is from Marshall. In fact, the high school athletic facility is named after him.

michael barbaro

So Ken, did you get around to asking Spencer what he thinks of the kind of reporting that you’re doing about football, and about brain injury, and the risks of what he’s encouraging these kids to do?

ken belson

Oh, sure. I asked him point blank.

ken belson I mean, you’ve probably read some of the reports or stories about the relationship between head hits and the risk of brain injury later in life, and so forth. But you love the sport. You let your kids play it. You coach it. What do you make of the two parts of it, the sport and the potential dangers? spencer taylor I think a lot of those reports — I think they’re accurate. But I think they were also done on older people. They were all done on N.F.L. players, and college players, who, these guys, when they came up, that’s how they hit. They hit head-first. The game is just so much safer now. And these kids today aren’t hitting that hard at this age. And so I think that makes it a little safer. I’ll tell you what, if I was not a coach and on the field with the kids every day, then I would probably be a lot more scared than I — you know, overly cautious. It’s not as bad when you’re out there, because you feel like you can control the situation a lot more.

michael barbaro

So for someone like Spencer — and it sounds like for all these coaches — the fact that someone like Jim Harris has assembled this information about risks, it just doesn’t seem like those risks at all outweigh the kind of social, parental, and even financial benefits of this game.

ken belson

For Spencer, the risks of football are pretty remote. I mean, the idea of brain damage is 30, 40 years in the future, if at all.

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So the tension between the Spencers of the world and the Jim Harrises of the world are the kind of battle that’s playing out, not just in Marshall but across the country, between the people who think the benefits outweigh the risks, and those who think the risks are no longer worth it. And these people are taking action. They’re pulling the kids out of football, so much so that this is starting to worry some of the most powerful people in the football establishment, who look at these declines and see the future the football game fading.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

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archived recording 1 Football is seeing participation decline in high schools across the country. archived recording 2 Across Oregon, high school football participation is declining. archived recording 3 Dropped from 14.5% of high schoolers in Texas to just under 11%. archived recording 4 Fear of injury, and fear of concussions, and greater awareness of the consequences of concussions. archived recording 5 Let me ask you, how does one make the game safer? archived recording 6 [Sighs] archived recording 7 How do you make the game safer? You don’t play.

ken belson

So despite the fact that two new youth leagues popped up in Marshall, nationally, the trend has gone the other way. Leagues are consolidating, parents are not putting them into football at all. So against all this, the N.F.L. and the N.C.A.A. and other people who are powerful in the football establishment were worried. They have, essentially, a big problem on their hands. Participation is falling. And there’s been research that shows that kids who play football — or any sport, frankly — are likely to follow it as a consumer later in life.

michael barbaro

So they’re nervous that the pipeline that is the future of football is slowly being turned off.

ken belson

Absolutely. Because fewer players means fewer fans, which means, ultimately, fewer dollars.

archived recording Imagine life without football — no Friday Night Lights, no pep rallies, no band.

ken belson

So they came up with a plan, basically, to start a marketing campaign to remind people that football has some positive aspects —

archived recording All that time invested to teach young men and women commitment and team spirit, gone. [CROWD CHEERING] Football, where young men and women compete to be the best.

ken belson

— whether it’s camaraderie or teamwork or discipline, or even fighting childhood obesity by getting kids out and running around several hours a day.

archived recording Celebrate the passion that only happens every fall. Join the game.

ken belson

Another part of the campaign is to remind parents that the game has actually gotten safer.

michael barbaro

And has it actually gotten safer? On the margins, yes. There’s been a number of rule changes, where collegiate and professional and even high school football have taken out some of the most dangerous plays.

ken belson

There’s also been a lot of investment in better equipment, development of new helmets and so forth. And perhaps most importantly, there’s more medical protocols for both identifying concussions and removing players from the game if they do have a concussion, not just putting them back in the game the way it used to be done. So while all this is going on at the N.F.L. and the collegiate level, some of the same changes in new equipment and medical protocols are also happening in towns like Marshall. At the high school level, they’ve spent money on new equipment. There are now trainers on the sidelines at games. And the coaches have all taken programs on how to identify and treat concussions as well.

michael barbaro

So Ken, does all of this work? This marketing campaign from the highest levels of football, these new rules, this new equipment, this new training? Are people responding well to this?

ken belson

Well, at least in Marshall, it seems to be working. The two youth leagues that popped up, they’re seeing participation start to rise. The head coach of the high school team, he sees kids moving to other towns because they still want to play. And that’s hurting Marshall’s team. So the team was losing some of its best players. So he starts bringing this issue up to the school board. And the school board decides, let’s put this on the agenda for a vote. Should we bring back seventh grade tackle football?

james harrell harris jr. I was unhappy with it. I was disgusted.

michael barbaro

And how does Jim Harris, the family doctor who changed how so many people in Marshall think about football, especially youth football, how does he feel about this development?

james harrell harris jr. I thought we were returning to a more primitive approach to football. And I was disappointed in our school board.

ken belson

He’s shocked. He had put his heart into this issue, raising awareness. Frankly, he stuck his neck out on a very unpopular topic and tried to tell parents that keeping their kids in the game is not a smart thing to do. But he’s persistent. So he decides to go to the school board meeting and make a last-ditch attempt at convincing them not to bring back seventh grade football.

james harrell harris jr. I just decided I needed to be more graphic. And I hadn’t made an appearance in a year or two. And I thought I’d better let him know that nothing had changed.

ken belson

To prepare for the meeting, Jim goes into his kitchen.

james harrell harris jr. And I think my wife was out of town, so she couldn’t stop me. And I made some Jell-O. And I had to read the directions. I’d never made Jell-O before —

ken belson

And he starts making a batch of red Jell-O.

michael barbaro

Jell-O.

ken belson

Yep, Jell-O.

james harrell harris jr. You got a refrigerate it, so it’ll congeal, or gel.

ken belson

The reason it’s red is that’s the school colors for Marshall High School.

james harrell harris jr. I had it in a big clear bottle, a big pickle jar.

ken belson

And he pours it into a big pickle jar.

james harrell harris jr. And I just took it down there, and —

ken belson

So he takes this pickle jar filled with red Jell-O, and gets in his car, and he drives off his ranch and down the highway to the school board meeting.

[music]

ken belson Can you tell us about that evening a little bit? james harrell harris jr. Oh, yeah. I had a hard time parking. And then I got in there, and there were people everywhere.

ken belson

And he’s kind of excited, right. This is his big moment to take a stand. And he arrives. The room is crowded.

james harrell harris jr. They were giving awards to teachers and to students who had done real well.

ken belson

And then he discovers that most of the people end up leaving, because they were just there to receive some awards.

james harrell harris jr. And before I got my chance to speak, the room was virtually empty. So I didn’t have much of an audience. ken belson So it was basically you and, whatever, a dozen or so people in the room at that point. james harrell harris jr. Yes. I went up to the microphone with my model, and gave them three minutes of my spiel.

ken belson

And he’s trying to demonstrate to the seven school board members, in the most vivid way he can, what it’s like when the brain is sloshing around inside the skull, much as it does during football games. So Jim goes to the podium, and with the three minutes that he’s allowed, he takes the pickle jar filled with the red Jell-O he made, and he lifts it above his head, and he shakes it.

james harrell harris jr. Sloshed it around a little bit — twist it and wobbled it and sloshed it.

ken belson

And the Jell-O hits up and down, and sideways, and every other side of the jar.

james harrell harris jr. That brain is going to wobble, and twist, and shake and bounce side to side. It’s tethered to the bottom of the skull, which is rough. It’s got bulges here and bulges there. And there’s just no way it can be safe.

ken belson

That this is all sorts of mini-traumas going on at the same time. And when you do this over and over and over, over many years, you increase your risk of brain disease.

ken belson And what was the reaction? Tell me, did they ask you any questions? Was there any follow-up? james harrell harris jr. No, they didn’t say a word. They smiled, and my time was up.

ken belson

And then they vote 7 to 0 to bring back seventh-grade football.

michael barbaro

Ken, what does this vote in Marshall, this pretty amazing reversal, what does it tell us about where the American public is when it comes to football and its health risks?

ken belson

Well, I think the arc of the narrative that unfolded in Marshall, from five years ago when they banned seventh grade football, all the way through to last year — when they brought it back — is really the story that’s happened all across the country. There was a lot of worries, very deep-seated ones. You know, the N.F.L., the N.C.A.A., all these football establishment groups kind of rumbled into action and tried to address their problems head-on, so to speak. But to guys like Jim Harris, it’ll never be safe enough. To Jim and doctors who study the issue in depth, all of these small head traumas that kids absorb when they play a game of football raise the risk of brain damage down the road.

michael barbaro

And so the fact that there have been actual improvements in safety, that doesn’t change how they view this game when it comes to young people.

ken belson

No. In fact, it’s sort of beside the point. Concussions are visible. They’re big hits. But to people who are worried about the risk of brain disease in the future, it’s all the little hits that kids absorb when they’re playing the game that are cumulative. And so that’s just football. It’s a collision sport.

[music]

You can’t avoid it if you’re going to play the game.

spencer taylor Just seeing the kids learn, and then take some of the kids that were real scared at the beginning of the year, and they start loving the game. Then they want to come back every year. And now that once they’re more developed, they do want to be on a winning team. They want to just do better. I just enjoy that, just seeing the kids. And I think these Little League days are some of the most memorable for them. james harrell harris jr. You know, I like kids. And I worry about your son, and my grandson, and anybody who’s playing. I wrote an article back — oh, I think in 2014 — and about Texas roulette, which is what I called football. I finally ended by saying I think that Texas roulette might be more dangerous than Russian roulette.

michael barbaro

Ken, thank you very much.

ken belson

Thanks Michael.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

[music]

Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording They’re asking you to tear up all of the ballots across this country on your own initiative.

michael barbaro

In their opening arguments of the impeachment trial on Saturday, lawyers for President Trump attacked his Democratic accusers as partisans trying to remove him from office, because they could not defeat him at the ballot box.

archived recording For all their talk about election interference, that they’re here to perpetrate the most massive interference in an election in American history. And we can’t allow that to happen.

michael barbaro

But on Sunday night, a major new challenge to that defense emerged. The Times reported that in an unpublished book, Trump’s former national security adviser, John Bolton, wrote that President Trump directly linked the freeze on Ukraine’s security money to his demand that Ukraine investigate Joe Biden, bolstering the House impeachment charges against the president. Bolton has said that he is willing to testify in the Senate trial if senators ask him to. And the account from his book suggests that that testimony could be explosive. And basketball legend Kobe Bryant died on Sunday in a helicopter crash that killed eight others, including one of his daughters. Bryant, a five-time N.B.A. champion and a two-time Olympic gold medalist, retired from the game in 2016 after 20 seasons with the Los Angeles Lakers.

archived recording (magic johnson) For 20 years, he thrilled us, he made us scratch our head — what did we just see, what did we just witness — and he gave us five N.B.A. championships. [APPLAUSE]

michael barbaro

Soon after, Bryant was honored during a ceremony emceed by another former Lakers star, Magic Johnson.

archived recording (magic johnson) I hope that you recorded every game. I hope that you’re doing the same thing tonight. Because there will never, ever be another Kobe Bryant. [APPLAUSE]

michael barbaro