TONY JONES, PRESENTER: "Tell him he's dreaming" - that was Bill Shorten's answer to the Greens leader's call for another Labor-Greens alliance. But it turns out Richard Di Natale's dreams are much bigger than that, as we found out when he joined us from Perth earlier.

Richard Di Natale, thanks for being there.

RICHARD DI NATALE, GREENS LEADER: Pleasure.

TONY JONES: Now if Green candidates managed to knock off senior Labor figures - Labor figures on the left like Anthony Albanese and Tanya Plibersek, would you regard that as a victory for democracy?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh, well, Tony, we're not just targeting Labor seats, we're targeting seats right around the country - Labor seats, Liberal seats, National seats. In fact we've taken seats off the National Party and the Liberal Party in recent state elections. And what we're doing, Tony, is giving people the opportunity in all of those electorates to vote for people who don't want to lock up young kids in those offshore hellholes. We're giving the opportunity to vote for strong action on dangerous global warming, on the real new economy, which is the clean energy economy. We're giving them the opportunity to vote on all of those things, something that's been denied to them by both the old parties.

TONY JONES: OK. So, what you're saying is when it comes to Anthony Albanese, Tanya Plibersek and others, there's no room for sentimentality. You'll play it as tough in those seats as everywhere else. Is that what you're saying?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well what we're saying, unlike Anthony Albanese, we think that voters in Grayndler, in all of those electorates deserve to have the choice. I mean, it's starting to sound a bit like this sense of entitlement that we hear so much about that we shouldn't be offering the people of Grayndler, in fact the people of Batman and Wills, Melbourne Ports, Higgins, Richmond, the opportunity to vote for things they care about, things like locking up young kids in those hellholes, taking strong action on global warming. They're the things that people stopping me in the street saying, "Please, continue to be the voice of reason, of decency, of compassion, the voice of progressive Australia, because we're just not getting it from either of the old parties."

TONY JONES: OK. I'm sure you've seen this rather extraordinary Daily Telegraph front page, Save Our Albo. Now are you surprised a News Limited tabloid would come out backing a left wing Labor candidate?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Not at all, Tony. I mean, what you're seeing in politics at the moment is the Coles and Woolworths of politics, the Labor and Liberal getting together, trying to shut out the Greens, keeping out a bit of competition and the corporate media is piling in - the big end of town who make those huge donations to both sides of politics, they want to protect - they want to protect their people.

TONY JONES: So Anthony Albanese - Anthony Albanese and the big end of town - is that what you're saying? Do they really go together?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, he's - he's part of a party that receives massive corporate donations, that represents the interests of the fossil fuel industry, the alcohol industry, the gambling industry - all taking donations from those industries. And it's no surprise that Rupert and the big corporate media would jump on board. They don't like the cosy little duopoly, the Labor and Liberal, Coles and Woollies of politics model to be broken. Well we're here to break it. We are here to break it, Tony. And let me tell you something else: a big thank you to the Daily Tele' for doing that. I think they've given Jim Casey's chances a real boost in the seat of Grayndler.

TONY JONES: OK. Well the second headline is "True believer in the fight of his political life with Greens radical who wants to overthrow capitalism". Does Jim Casey represent the kind of pragmatic Greens party which you represent and are trying to build?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Look, Jim wants to see a more caring and more decent society. He's a strong believer in issues like housing affordability, public education, more funding of public schools - traditional values that once were supported by, indeed, the Labor Party and what we're seeing is Jim giving the people of Grayndler a role choice and good on him for doing it.

TONY JONES: Yeah, but Jim Casey also refers in Tweets to class war, he's praised people who've called for the overthrow of capitalism. Now you don't advocate class war or the overthrow of capitalism, but do you endorse candidates who do?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh, look, Jim's obviously in some recent Tweets used a little bit of colourful language. I've spoken to Jim, I know him well, I know the values that he represents, I know he's somebody who cares very deeply about innocent people being locked up in those hellholes offshore, I know he cares very deeply about the people of Grayndler being able to afford a property, being able to get decent dental care, decent health care, public education. They're the mainstream progressive values that I spoke about when I took on the leadership, Tony, and I think Jim represents them and we've got candidates right around the country who represent those values. And it's why you're seeing both the old parties getting caught up in such a tizz over the Greens threatening the cosy business model that we see between the Labor and Liberal parties.

TONY JONES: Do you categorically rule out any preference deals with the Liberal Party in any of these key contested seats: Sydney, Grayndler, Batman in Victoria and New South Wales and the others you talked about already?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh, Tony, we've already said that we won't be preferencing the Liberal Party ahead of the Labor Party in any seat in the country. We just won't be doing that. We'll do what we've always done, and that is, our local branches will make those decisions, as they've done over a number of elections. You won't see any change in that. You'll see them overwhelmingly recommend preferences to the Labor Party. In some seats they'll decide they like neither of the candidates and they won't recommend preferences to anybody.

TONY JONES: So, what does that mean for a seat like Grayndler, for seats like Sydney, the ones we're talking about with high-profile Labor candidates? Are you going to preference Labor in those seats or are you gonna do the pragmatic political thing and try and defeat them with whatever means you have, including not running any preferences at all in those seats?

RICHARD DI NATALE: In seats like Labor and Sydney - sorry, in Grayndler and Sydney, we will be preferencing the Labor Party ahead of the Liberal Party. I'm very confident of that.

TONY JONES: In Victoria, the Liberal Party powerbroker Michael Kroger says that under your leadership, the Greens are not the nutters they used to be. He seems to be saying that you're a man he could do political deals with and he's talking about forming a loose arrangement with the Greens in Victoria, for example, and possibly in these other seats. But what about in Victoria, the seat of Batman, for example?

RICHARD DI NATALE: So Michael Kroger will do what he believes is in the interests of the Liberal Party as he's always done. I mean, they preferenced the Greens ahead of the - sorry, they preferenced Labor ahead of the Greens for a number of elections. They did that because they felt it was in their political interests to do so.

TONY JONES: We're going into an election. The election could end up in a hung parliament. As we've heard from Adam Bandt and yourself, the possibility of a Greens-Labor alliance may emerge if there is a hung parliament. It's not really wise under those circumstances to antagonise your Labor - I guess your opponents in the Labor Party, is it, if you're thinking of forming a deal with them later?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well if by antagonising you mean actually standing candidates in seats and giving them the choice to vote for those things that we know that people care about and are being denied ...

TONY JONES: No, specifically about preferencing against them and we never heard, for example, what you're planning to do in Batman, which has a senior - another senior Labor figure. You plan to run an open ticket there or are you gonna preference to Labor there?

RICHARD DI NATALE: No, again - again, in seats like Batman, in Wills, it's a decision for the local branch. But let me tell you again, I am extremely confident that we will be preferencing the Labor Party ahead of the Liberal Party.

TONY JONES: We'll come back to the hung parliament thing briefly. Are you still confident that the Labor Party might be up for a deal, a Labor-Greens alliance of the kind that happened under the Gillard Government if there is a hung parliament?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Tony, I think it is ultimately a question for them. We've already said that we're prepared to work constructively, responsibly with them in the event that there is an opportunity for a power-sharing government. We've already said that. And let's remember that the last power-sharing government delivered the most effective climate laws anywhere in the world - model legislation, described by the International Renewable Energy Agency. It delivered Medicare-funded dental care, something I'm very proud of. We've got kids right around the country who can now go to a dentist, have a thousand dollars worth of Medicare-funded dental care each year as a result of the arrangement we had to support Labor and we made that a condition of that agreement. That was the Greens delivering on climate laws, on Medicare-funded dental care and I think that we can get a really significant change if we find ourselves in that - with that opportunity again. It's disappointing that the Labor Party want to walk away from those things. And again, just to finish that off, it wasn't the power-sharing agreement that was the problem during that period of government, it was that internal division that we saw between Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd, the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd turmoil, chaos, undermining that ultimately undid a lot of the good work that was thanks to the Greens having a responsible role in that government.

TONY JONES: OK. In terms of your long-term strategy for the Greens, is it true that you see Canada's Justin Trudeau as a kind of model for how a progressive party can end up running a country?

RICHARD DI NATALE: No question at all about that. He has shown, as have many other European examples, that you can have strong progressive values, that you can stand up to those big vested interests, that you can want a more inclusive society, one where we look after each other, one where we invest more in hospitals, in schools, one where we tackle dangerous global warming and still be successful.

TONY JONES: Without going through all those kind of details, I mean, is it possible that you could end up as a kind of Justin Trudeau-type figure and end up running the country? I mean, do your ambitions stretch that far?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh - look, you just need to look at where the major party vote is and what it's been doing over a number of decades. The major party vote has been declining. The growth of the Greens has continued year on year on year. We're making breakthroughs at local government, at state level, at a federal level. There will be a time in the not-too-distant future where we will have Greens in the lower houses of the Federal Parliament and what that will mean is that the issue of power-sharing governments becomes the rule rather than simply an anomaly. And ...

TONY JONES: In the kind of Scandinavian way, are you saying, like many countries have accommodated these kind of multi-party arrangements outside of Australia, not here?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Absolutely. And that's what - that is the future for Australia. Multi-party government is the future for Australia. People are so fed up with business-as-usual politics from the old parties. They're sick of the fact that they're beholden to these big vested interests, they're sick of the fact that they get huge political donations to do the bidding of the big end of town, that on so many issues they stand together, united against the community and in support of big business. They want something to be done about the growing income inequality, the gap between the rich and ordinary people in this country. They want a more inclusive society and they're turning to the Greens, and it must be said, independents as well, because that's the sort of vision that they have for the country, one that we share and ...

TONY JONES: Can I just make this point, though? I mean, you would have seen the counter example with the Liberal Democrats entering into an arrangement with the Conservatives, the Tories in Britain and ending up destroying themselves. I mean, is that something you have in the back of your mind, that if you ended up in a party - sorry, power-sharing arrangement where Green ministers, for example, ended up being part of a government, that you might end up paying the price for not keeping the bastards honest, for being part of the system?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, we're not there to keep the bastards honest; we're there to get rid of them, Tony. And if the pathway to do that is through a power-sharing government, then so be it. Of course there will be challenges. No question about it. And each issue, each election, it's a case-by-case basis. But if you're not prepared to take that next step, then, I mean, I'm not sure what we're doing here. We're here to change the face of Australia, to make it a more decent, compassionate, caring, progressive, prosperous country. And we do that by taking on that business-as-usual politics, the old establishment parties, by doing everything we can to break apart that business model and give people a viable third choice.

TONY JONES: Alright. We're just about out of time. Final question: I believe you've got a sort of two-election strategy. At the end of two elections, what would you hope - what percentage of the vote would you hope the Greens might have?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well I said I think when I took on the leadership that we should be hitting 20 per cent in a decade. We think long-term. Now, it is tough to get through to the Lower House. That's a big breakthrough to make. We're targeting a number of Lower House seats, giving people the option in those seats to vote according to their progressive values. If we don't make that breakthrough at this election, we'll do it at the next one. If not at the next one, it'll be the one after that. And I'm very confident if we turn our minds to Australia in 10 years, you'll see many Greens in the Lower House of Parliament, you'll see the Greens being a consistent, responsible force in the Senate and I really believe, Tony, that Australia will be a better country because of it.

TONY JONES: Richard Di Natale, we'll have to leave you there. Plenty to talk about and think about after that interview. Thank you very much.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Pleasure.