joan

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Link to Post Back to Top Post by joan on Recently I've had several emails from HFF members, as well as pms on here, asking if the lighter sables are as healthy as the darker sables, plus a couple questions as to why I won't include black sables in my breeding program. It seems that many owners, as well as some of the newer breeders, think all sables are equally healthy.



The healthiest and longest lived ferrets, IME, are the darker sables with full pigmentation, ie, dark brown/black nose and eyes. The lighter ones, with brown, mottled, or pink noses, will probably have a somewhat weaker immune system as that goes along with the dilution of color. I checked that out years ago after reading a comment from a long time UK breeder that the first indication of genetic weakness was loss of nose pigmentation.



However, if they have dark brown eyes and come from a background free of roaning and white marking, then the lighter ones should have the normal lifespan of 7-8 healthy years. AFAIK, that probably goes for the sable points, as well. If there's any doubt as to the actual iris pigmentation, check the ferret's eye shine when light is reflected from them in a dark room...green eye shine is full pigmentation, red eye shine is the result of dilute pigmentation.



I avoid the US black sables and solids due to their background of BM/BRMs. Sables of whatever intensity of color which have a background of roans and white markings are carrying those genetics and will have the same probability of developing the various health problems at relatively early ages. It's becoming more and more common to hear of adrenal, insulinoma, and other health problems in such ferrets at only 3-4 years of age, much to the anger and heartbreak of their owners who paid several hundred dollars for what they thought would be a healthy, long lived ferrets.



Early illnesses and deaths are also common among the European black selfs, so I wouldn't touch anything with those in the pedigree, either. They are well known among European breeders for a history of poor health, a high incidence of JL. and early deaths before 3 years of age.



Any questions or comments?

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Member Back to Top Post by Deleted on I have never seen or know what a european black self is.....



I have a marshall farms boy(i know, already a cantidate for many different things) he is a dark chocolate with a speckled nose, and the white from his chin trails down just a little bit, but that is the only odd white marking on him.

What do you think?

joan

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Link to Post Back to Top Post by joan on @stivsferretbiznus said:

I have never seen or know what a european black self is.....



I have a marshall farms boy(i know, already a cantidate for many different things) he is a dark chocolate with a speckled nose, and the white from his chin trails down just a little bit, but that is the only odd white marking on him.

What do you think? I have never seen or know what a european black self is.....I have a marshall farms boy(i know, already a cantidate for many different things) he is a dark chocolate with a speckled nose, and the white from his chin trails down just a little bit, but that is the only odd white marking on him.What do you think?



I don't care for the white on the chin extending down, but don't really know if it has any significance. What is significant is a white spot on the chest and/or white on the toes of sables, chocolates, or champagnes...that's an indication that they carry the mitt genetics.



Another marking to watch out for is a white streak on the forehead or back of the neck on young kits, which signifies that the kit is a genetic blaze. Such markings often disappear with age, but the genetics don't.



In regard to champagnes (sandies in the UK), I corresponded briefly with a sandy breeder in the UK some years ago who had a long lived line...they lived to be 10 or more. He had been line- and inbreeding them for more than 30 years, and only rarely outcrossed. His all had dark brown eyes, as he had discovered early on that the ones with burgundy eyes weren't as healthy and didn't live as long. I don't care for the white on the chin extending down, but don't really know if it has any significance. What is significant is a white spot on the chest and/or white on the toes of sables, chocolates, or champagnes...that's an indication that they carry the mitt genetics.Another marking to watch out for is a white streak on the forehead or back of the neck on young kits, which signifies that the kit is a genetic blaze. Such markings often disappear with age, but the genetics don't.In regard to champagnes (sandies in the UK), I corresponded briefly with a sandy breeder in the UK some years ago who had a long lived line...they lived to be 10 or more. He had been line- and inbreeding them for more than 30 years, and only rarely outcrossed. His all had dark brown eyes, as he had discovered early on that the ones with burgundy eyes weren't as healthy and didn't live as long.

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Member Back to Top Post by Deleted on

Coda is a champagne/sandy, but she has burgundy eyes.

Tubesock is well.. all white so if she did have any of these, there is no telling!

Rob was a panda. waardy NO DOUBT there, and deaf. he passed from JL at 1year 3 months of age, no lump, four days later, golf ball sized lump. Like Stiv(in my siggy) he has toe tips and a white lock with patches in it.Coda is a champagne/sandy, but she has burgundy eyes.Tubesock is well.. all white so if she did have any of these, there is no telling!Rob was a panda. waardy NO DOUBT there, and deaf. he passed from JL at 1year 3 months of age, no lump, four days later, golf ball sized lump.

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Member Back to Top Post by Heather on Proper diet, limited to no vaccines, watch toxic household cleaners, EO scents and love (and a good bit of luck). Don't look at your wee ones as any less than they are. They are a product of public demand. If we didn't demand exotic markings or colours they wouldn't be there. It's very simple. I've noticed (in this area anyway) that sables have become vogue. It doesn't mean that they're any less susceptible because those genetics are still sitting in there, but maybe by demanding more natural colours things could possibly swing to where they should be. Huge mistakes have been made, now it's time to go back to what was natural

ciao

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Member Back to Top Post by crazylady on Hi can I also add some sables have pink noses ( or broken noses which is patchy brown black with pink showing through ) due to the addition of albino somewhere in the family tree it was quite common years ago to pop albino into a sable line it made them more handleable ! this was in fact how polecats were domesticated and used for hunting ! the more albino in the polecat ( sable ) the lighter the undercoat and nose ( lots of domesticated sables have white undercoats not the yellow of the purer lines ) some white under coated sables can carry the dark nose its simply a case of how strong the nose was in each parent if for example you bred a sable pair who both had albino in the line ( eg mothers mother who looked sable but was from a split litter ( some of the siblings were sable some light sables and maybe an odd roan in the mix were breed to a male who carried the same type of parentage ) you could end up with a split litter again of some dark some medium some with solid noses and some with broken noses you can even get a throw back litter where the odd white fleck pops out on the chest even though the line has been bred sable to sable for two or three or even four generations ( I have had this happen and the kits lived to be 10 and 11 ! with no problems ) its all in the mix and it depends what 50% each kit gets from each parent as the saying goes put the best to the best and hope for the best ! just my two penny's worth take care bye for now

bev

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Member Back to Top Post by Deleted on You know, this reminds me of a certain thing in bird breeding called "like to like" breeding. When two mutations(colors) that are full and not "split"(gene is only on one chromosome sort of) then the babies come out weaker, more health problems.



I wonder if this applies to breeders who breed something like black sable to black sable and champagne to champagne. But rather a chocolate to a black sable may produce healthier kits. Popping albino into the genetics, means you are not breeding like to like such as black sable to albino, you can get plenty of black sables from that, most will be healthy