Renowned author & TedTalk speaker Dr. Guy Winch talks about different kinds of heartbreak, especially the ones some people minimize (loss of pets or non-married breakups). He gets into the science of how our brains react to loss, how we experience this emotionally and some tips for coping or supporting someone.

Episode notes:



More About Guy

His new TED Talk about heartbreak: https://www.ted.com/talks/guy_winch_how_to_fix_a_broken_heart

How to Fix a Broken Heart book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/How-Fix-Broken-Heart-Books/dp/1501120123

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. To get your first week of online counseling free go to www.BetterHelp.com/mental Must be 18 This episode is sponsored by SquareSpace. For a free trial and 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain go to www.SquareSpace.com and use offer code Mental. To see Paul's SquareSpace site with his dog pictures and music go to www.Paul-Gilmartin.squarespace.com This episode is sponsored by SeatGeek. Save $20 off your first ticket purchase by downloading the app and using promo code MENTAL To become a monthly donor for as little as $1/month (and qualify for bonus content and goodies from Paul go to www.Patreon.com/mentalpod To make a one-time donation via Paypal go to www.mentalpod.com/donate To help fund Paul's next trip to record international guests, especially in Ireland, go to https://www.gofundme.com/pauls-trip-to-ireland Follow Paul on Twitter @mentalpod and Instagram @mentalpod

Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 371. We're gonna talk about heartbreak, with Dr. Guy Winch. Today's episode is brought to you by SquareSpace. You know that great idea you've had in the back of your head. Well, it's time to turn that into a unique web site—whether it's a blog, or some type of work you do, published content, even selling products or services. You can do it in a few clicks. Customize everything, just how you want it. Beautiful templates by world-class designers, nothing to install, patch, or upgrade ever. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code "mental," to save 10 percent off your first purchase of a web site or domain.

[00:00:43] My name is Paul Gilmartin. The name of this here podcast is the Mental Illness Happy Hour. It's a place for honesty about all the battles we have in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas, sexual dysfunctions, to everyday, simple … negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling—oh god, no (laughs) … oh! I'm not a professional. I'm barely a human being (chuckles). Let's see, uh … minute and 18 seconds in and I have shat on myself already. That’s actually a little long. I, I held it off probably for a good minute more than it felt like I should have been, uh, pouncing on myself.

[00:01:35] Welcome to any, uh, new listeners that are coming to us from, uh, uh, that featured spot on iTunes or, uh, Apple Podcast, I should, uh, I should say. What'd I want to tell you? You know what? Let me read a couple of, uh—oh, I know what I wanna say. For those of you who are new to the podcast, my brain is working very slow. I think I missed a dose of my medication, but I'm not sure. And, uh, I've been sick—you can probably still hear it, for the last couple of days. So, I haven’t, uh … I just haven’t done anything (chuckles) that’s good for me. I haven’t exercised, I haven’t meditated, um. But I haven’t sat and obsessed about myself, so hopefully that, that burns some calories. This show is part interview, part listener confessions via the surveys that people fill out on our web site anonymously. And our web site is mentalpod.com. Mentalpod is also the Twitter and Instagram handle that you can, uh, follow me at.

[00:02:41] So this is from one of our, um, more popular survey: a survey called "Your Struggle in a Sentence." This is filled out by "Yasmin," and she writes about her depression: "Like I'm coming down from MDMA every day." That is actually … very similar, scientifically, uh, the … the way the brain (chuckles), the way my brain is working right now (chuckles). Yeah, because you squirt out all that dopamine, uh, when you're high. And then the next day, uh, your bank account is empty. The bank account being in your brain. About her sex addiction: "I have to fuck you so good that you never leave me, so I never have to sleep alone." And then a snapshot from her life that highlights her issues: "I'm too afraid to let my boyfriend in on abandonment issues, because I'm afraid he'll leave. And I also know that the problems that will cause will be the reason our relationship someday ends." Thank you for that. Yeah, what a fucking catch-22.

[00:03:51] "Borderline Anorexic" write about her, uh, anxiety: "Will they write 'The Girl Who Said Thighs Instead of Ties' on my grave?" (Chuckles) Oh my god, the, the obsessing over past mistakes—that is one of the worst wastes of time. That, and going to see a movie by Michael Bay. Those two have to be the biggest wastes of time, ever. I don’t normally shit on people on the podcast, um, but I really don’t like his movies. About her anger issues: "Being angry, but knowing that I'm only person I should be angry at." You know, I wanted to read this—um, she's a teenager. And I wanted to read this because—no, you shouldn't be angry, um, at yourself. First of all, there are no shoulds, in terms of our feelings. We feel what we feel, and judging what we feel is, is, uh … does not help anything. It's our actions that we should focus on. And, there's a difference between being angry at yourself, uh, in a cycle of unhealthy shame, and reflecting on something that you might improve upon, uh, in the future if this situation presents itself again. Learning from a mistake, as opposed to shaming yourself for a mistake.

[00:05:32] This is filled out by "Black Cats Rule," and she writes, um, her issues are depression, anxiety, bulimia, and living with an abusive person. And a snapshot from her life that highlights her issues: "I remember walking down the sidewalk at my college on my way to class from a session with my therapist, looking up and thinking, 'That looks like a tall enough building to jump off.'" (Chuckles) Thank you for that. It's, it's crazy. Since I started doing this show, um, my relationship to what I think about when I look at bridges is so much different than it used to be. Because I—that was never a fantasy that, that I had, I supposed, because I've never lived, uh, really close to water. But, um, I, I was in (chuckles), I think it was Portland, and, uh, and I realized, "Boy, I have been thinking, every time I look at a bridge, that somebody has taken their life off of that thing." And I almost forgot that it can also be used to connect two points of land. Who knew?

[00:06:46] "Allister (sp.)" writes about his, uh, skin picking: "It feels like driving a car without brakes." That’s such a good one. I'm not a skin picker, but addiction is … yeah. (Stumbles on words) Yeah, it's a compulsive behavior, not necessarily an addiction. About his autism: "It feels like the intensity dials for all my physical senses and emotional states were turned all the way up and they are just stuck that way forever." About his gender dysphoria—and, uh, he is trans-masculine. He writes, "Feels like what I imagine what phantom limb is like. I can tell that parts of my body are missing, but they were simply never there in the first place." If you haven't listened to the episode with, uh, Lauren Hennessy, uh, you should. That’s a really, really great episode, and Lauren is a, uh, trans man, and just an all-around great interview. And … yeah, check it out.

[00:07:55] Same survey filled out by "Intrusive Apartment for Rent." And, uh, she describes her intrusive thoughts: "Like my mind is a space for rent for other people's problems with me, that are really only mine. And although there's no vacancy, I can't seem to take down the 'For Rent' sign." (Chuckles) It's … what is it they say about resentments, is, uh, letting other people rent, rent space in your head.

[00:08:26] "Hanna" shares a happy moment with us. She writes, "I went to a Whole Foods on my way home today to pick up the random hippie bullshit I need." (Chuckles) I think that would be a great name for a store: "Random Hippie Bullshit." You wouldn’t know what you're getting. Just walk in, you're like, "Where's a granola? Where's there, uh … kombucha (chuckles)? The kombucha pudding?" (Chuckles) And, uh: "Went to pick up all the random hippie bullshit I need. I normally hate this Whole Foods, because it has tall, narrow aisles, a small parking lot, and it was very busy (it's always very busy)." And—first of all, there's no way it could be smaller than a Trader Joe's parking lot. Trader Joe's parking lots can actually double as a girdle (chuckles). If you, if you know the right people, uh—of course, everything is a nickel at Trader Joe's; it's a postage stamp (chuckles). I get anxiety just thinking about going to Trader Joe's and trying to find a parking space. Continuing: "Every time I've gone here, I am super anxious and I'm afraid of bumping into folks and getting in their way. But today, as I bobbed and weaved through all types of folks, I felt decent. Okay. And even found myself laughing at times, like when things accidentally fell of the shelf and, when having difficulties finding the spice aisle. For a moment, I was in the present moment, and even thought I was doing an errand, I felt okay. And pretty content. And even, maybe happy." I so love moments like this, because this, to me, is the bulk of life. And if we can make peace with the present moment, it's like, that's 90 percent of life: is, is not judging the moment. Just saying, "How can I react to this in a way that's principled? How can I recognize what I have control over and what I don’t have control over?" And, uh … yeah.

[00:10:36] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by "xacabaf-," "xcabafabx." I don’t know what the fuck that means. But I got a resentment of them already. They're already renting space in my head. They are agender, and they write, "I cut my dad off a few years ago. This past Christmas, my mother decided I needed to 'make it right.'" So she asked me to meet up and talk. I hadn’t seen her in several years because they are missionaries. Anyway, we meet up at a busy Starbucks (her choice), where she grills me about my dad. And I tell her that he sexually abused me. She insisted that we do this there. So, there it is. She goes on to explain to me that the devil can insert false memories to destroy the family unit. And that she and I are in a spiritual war. She points to her chest and says, 'GOOD!' Then to me and says, 'EVIL!' Back at herself: 'JESUS.' To me: 'SATAN.' I look her dead in the eyes and say, 'Everything in you, your survival, is fully invested in not believing me. I know what happened. These are not false memories. When shit hits the fan in a few decades, I hope you can look back on this and see the truth in this. But THIS, this shit right here, I am NEVER doing THIS again.' A woman with some sort of liberal, feminist sticker on her computer lifted her Starbucks cup to me in agreement, and my mom told me, 'I was yelling.' Whoops!" That is fantastic. That is FANtastic! It, it … The healing that can take place when we stop rolling over because we don’t want to make a stand with people that are toxic in our lives. The empowerment—I, I can't even imagine how … fucking empowered this person felt after they walked away from that. Probably sad, as well, but right on, man. Right on.

[00:13:06] And, um … if (chuckles)—how's this for a segue: If you want to find out how to empower yourself and do some inner work, well then how about using one of our sponsors, Betterhelp.com. I'm a big fan of Betterhelp.com. I've been using them for a year and a half, and, um, I didn't know what to expect with online therapy. But I am, I'm a total fan. I talk once a week, um, to Donna, my therapist, and she is just a super, highly-qualified, experienced, wonderful woman who gets me and is compassionate. And, um, has really helped me, uh gain a lot of insight into the things that, uh, that I struggle with. So, if you guys want to check out Betterhelp.com, go to betterhelp.com/mental, complete a questionnaire, and then you'll get matched with a Betterhelp.com counselor. And you can experience a free week of counseling to see if, uh, online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18. And, once again, that's betterhelp.com/mental, and make sure you include the "/mental", so they know you came from our show.

[00:14:21] We are also sponsored today by SeatGeek, which is a really cool app, uh, to buy tickets. And, one of the things I like about it—I used it to buy, uh, some tickets for Paul Simon, uh, who's coming to the Hollywood Bowl; very excited about that. And I wasn’t really sure where to sit there. And, one of the things that the app has is, you can filter by a bunch of different things. And I filtered by a cool thing they have, which is called "Seat Value." I think that's the name if it. But essentially, how big of a, a, of a discount you're getting on a ticket that is for sale. And, uh, that's what I used, and I found a couple of tickets I'm super excited about. And, uh … you ought to check it out. Make SeatGeek your go-to app for finding the best deals and every kind of tickets, from sports and concerts, to comedy and theater. And you guys, the listeners, get 20 bucks off your first SeatGeek purchase. Just download the SeatGeek app and enter the promo code "mental" today. That's promo code "mental" for 20 bucks off your first SeatGeek purchase.

[00:15:31] All right. This is a struggle in a sentence filled out by "Puke Pity," and she writes, uh, about here OCD: "I'll sleep in my sister's room so I don’t ruin my perfectly made bed." And then a snapshot—oh, her issues are depression, anxiety, alcoholism, bulimia, anorexia, and codependency, and OCD. And snapshot from her life; she writes, "I can do anything, and I'm amazing. I'm going to accomplish everything. But first, I have to wait for my sister to leave so I can puke up everything I just binged."

Intro

[00:17:10] Paul: I'm here with, uh, Guy Winch, who's been a guest before, and the listeners love you. Your mini episodes on, uh, issues like grief, rumination, anxiety, uh, people found really, really helpful. And … we're gonna talk about heartbreak, both romantic and losing a pet. I'm so glad that you touch on that in this, this new book you have; it's called How to Fix a Broken Heart. And … when does it come out?

Dr. Winch: It comes out February 13.

Paul: February 13th. It's such a helpful book. Give us kind of an overview, uh, of it.

Dr. Winch: So, I wanted to write a book about heartbreak. But I wanted to write a book about the kind of heartbreak that we typically dismiss, that we typically ignore. When somebody gets divorced, everyone like, "Oh! You're getting divorced. We're so sorry." Your bosses at work will acknowledge that that's an issue, "Do you need some time? Oh, we understand why you're not maybe performing as best as you can." But if you're not married, if you're just in a relationship, even if it's a very significant one, and that breaks up, and you go in and say, "My girlfriend broke up with me," then the boss is gonna look at you like, "Uh, well, grow up." You know, Just get over it." And it's a similar thing with pet loss. We … can become incredibly attached to our pets. They become members of our family. They can be primary companions for people. And losing a pet—cats can live to 20-something years; dogs to the, you, like into 15 years, what have you. They can really be significant parts of our lives. And when we lose them, the assumption is, "We'll just get over it. It's an animal." But they can … what people experience is SIGNIFICANT, significant grief. Both about a relationship breaking up and about pet loss. And so, I wanted to write a book about (A) these are really significant life events. We experience significant grief as a result. And yet, we don't acknowledge, as a society, that these are important, meaningful losses that warrant, um, that warrant discussion, that warrant support, that warrant recovery. And, um, so I wanted to write a book about (A) what the science says about these things, and (B) how they impact us and what we can do it.

Paul: Let's start off by you reading the, uh, thing about, uh, Ben.

Dr. Winch: So, the, um, this patient I write about in the book, uh, I called him Ben. All the names, of course, of patients, and in this case of animals, have been changed (laughter), to protect the privacy of people. Then I had met—initially, when he, uh, uh, he lost both his parents within a year—and he came, uh, to me to work through some of that. And this happened, um, seven years later. And, uh, I got an email from him. And, now I'll read from the book. "The email said, 'I need to see you again. But you're going to think it's silly, because it's about Bover (sp.).' Bover was his dog. 'I know it's ridiculous to go to therapy to talk about a dog. But he's really sick, and I need to talk about it. I know it sounds stupid, and I feel embarrassed to ask, but please let me know if it's okay to make an appointment ASAP.' My heart pinched as I read Ben's words. I remembered both him and Bover well. Ben worked from home and was alone in his apartment all day, so he had decided to get a dog for companionship soon after his divorce. He adopted a rescue pup he named Bover, an adorable Labrador and Golden Retriever mix. Bover was Ben's first dog, and he was totally smitten with him from day one. He devoted hours to playing with his new puppy and training him to do simple tricks. He proudly walked him around the neighborhood, and Bover, who was a ham even by dog standards, accrued fans and admirers everywhere. Even people who knew Ben previously began referring to him as Bover's dad. When Ben's parents first got sick, Ben took Bover with him whenever he visited them. When they were hospitalized, he asked their neighbors to watch Bover while he spent hours at their bedside, just to be able to have Bover with him one the drive back and forth. Ben also received support from his boss, who considerate and understanding. He gave Ben time off to care for his parents, as their conditions worsened and to grieve for them when they died. I would like to think therapy was the vital ingredient that helped Ben get through his parents' death, but it was not. What truly kept him going during that dark period was Bover. 'He sleeps with me in the bed at night,' Ben told me in our first session. 'He sits by me when I work. Yesterday, I was watching TV and thinking about my dad, and I guess I started to cry. I didn’t even notice I had tears on my cheek until Bover came over and began licking my hand. I swear, he can tell when I'm sad. He's the most amazing dog.' Bover was. Ben would often bring him to our sessions, where he would lie at the foot of the couch, his head resting on Ben's foot. Truly attuned to Ben's mood and emotional distress, when Ben teared up or cried, Bover would sit up and lick his hand or rest his head on Ben's knee. The bond between them was powerful and undeniable. With Bover's health failing, I could only imagine how distraught Ben must be. I met with Ben the next day; he came alone. Almost 15 years old now, Bover was deaf and almost entirely blind, and he often became anxious and restless in unfamiliar places. Since I had moved offices since I last saw Ben, he thought it best to leave Bover at home. Ben was extremely upset during our session, and I comforted as best I could. We set up another time to meet the following week. But Bover's health deteriorated rapidly, and Ben had to take him to the vet the next day. Bover rallied at first, but then he declined again a few days later. The vet determined he required surgery. Ben had already used his personal days, and most of his vacation days to care for Bover over multiple health emergencies and vet visits. He used his last vacation day to stay by Bover's side, as he recovered at home after the surgery. The next morning, Bover slipped into a coma. Out of both personal and vacation days, Ben called in sick to work so he could rush Bover back to the vet. His boss called him on the cell phone a few hours later, after Ben didn't answer his landline. Ben admitted he was at the veterinary hospital, and explained that his dog was very sick. His boss was furious. He insisted Ben get back to work immediately so he could meet an important deadline. Ben had no choice. He left Bover at the veterinary hospital and went home to finish his work. That afternoon, the vet called. Bover was failing rapidly. Ignoring the consequences of leaving his assignment incomplete, Ben rushed to his dog's side. When he arrived at the vet's, Bover was unconscious and breathing shallowly. Ben reached over and softly stroked his dog's head, tears streaking down his cheeks. And then, something amazing happened, Ben told me when we met the following evening. 'Bover's eyes never opened when I touched him, so I put my hand near his nose so he could smell that it was me. And, he licked my hand.' Ben collapsed into sobs. 'He knew I was crying, and he licked my hand, just like he always did. He licked my hand. And then he died.' Although I often feel deeply sad when working with a patient whose heart is broken, I'm really moved to tears that Ben's description of Bover's last moments had me lunging for the tissue box. The enormity of Ben's loss was apparent. Bover's faithful companionship had eased Ben's loneliness after his divorce. His lo-, his loyal devotion had comforted Ben when his parents died, and his playful and exuberant presence had been Ben's emotional anchor for the past 15 years. Ben's heart was absolutely shattered. But he was given no time to grieve."

Paul: (Pause) I di-, (chuckles) I didn’t think I was gonna cry again after hearing this. (Pause) Talk, talk some—fill the, fill the silence for fuck's sake, Guy!

Dr. Winch: I will. Sorry, I'm giving, I'm giving you, I'm giving you a moment—

Paul: I know, I know. It's—

Dr. Winch: I—you know, I just read this many, many times. Otherwise, I would be right there with you, When I wrote it, when I read it the first few times, it … it took me back to that moment. And, when you see somebody so devastated, and when you understand the devastation, because this guy, Ben … Bover was his life. It, it … he literally didn’t have a relationship. He … Bover was his life. He took the dog to the dog run. He would talk to people there. He was known as Bover's dad in the neighborhood, as I said. And, it was, you know, he would, you know, work from home. But he, the end of the day, took him out for these long walks in the New York City winters even. And losing him left him so alone, and left him so bereft, and … it is bad enough to deal with, if that were the only situation. But, this boss, which had been so supportive when his parents died, did not get it. And there's a line further on, you know, when I describe this about how he responded to him. And, he was so dismissive. He literally thought Ben was being ridiculous and childish and silly and, and, and all of that. And, so there was no support there. He was literally given no time to grieve. He had to go back and finish that assignment, and the he had to keep working the next day when his heart was shattered. Now, what I say about this is that you can force somebody to sit in a chair at a computer and do their work. You can't force them to function, and Ben wasn’t functioning. He wasn’t … he was heartbroken. So he was able to tap out some lines here and some things there, but there's this unreality, this unrealistic expectation that we have that if we think somebody shouldn’t be in pain, then they shouldn’t be. And if we think they should just be able to put that aside and dismiss it, they should be able to put it aside and dismiss it. And that’s just not reality; it's just absolutely unrealistic. It's, it's false as an assumption. You might not agree that the person is brokenhearted or should be. But if they, are you have to accept that they are, and the best you can do is help them move forward as much as possible rather than penalize them for the loss that they're already suffering. And Ben was penalized. He truly almost lost his job. And I have to say, when I wrote this book, there were many—you know, when, when you write a book like this as a psychologist, you want to choose a few people that I've worked with, right, that I can talk about. I've worked with many; I've been practicing for 25 years. I could choose many people who lost pets. I could choose many people who were heartbroken. I wanted to choose the ones that illustrated something that was actually really common, that when pets die—in this case, when I'm talking about pets—there were very few examples in which people got the support they needed. Even the people who were, "Oh, I'm so sorry," after a week it's like, "Oh, no. You should be over this now." And … it's not people's experience. They don’t get over it after a week. They don’t get after it after a long time. And, there's a way in which we, until we're in the situation, don't get it. And we need to get it, because this is profound, for many, many, many people. And it was important for me to bring this story particularly, because there was a comparison there between losing his two parents and losing his dog. He was more affected by the loss of the dog. Because his parents, as much as he loved them, lived far away, he didn't see them that often. He didn’t even speak to the everyday. They were not part of his daily life. He didn’t wake up in the morning, look out, and feel their absence. So, it was hard for him when his parents died. It was fundamentally and significantly harder when Bover died. And that comparison of—yes, he mourned the dog; he grieved, more than his own parents—is not a testament of him being a, a, a … you know, something wrong with him or being a shallow person. It's a testament to the bond that we have with these animals. And, the fact that the boss was so com—and he was, super compa—that's why Ben was so surprised, like, "Wow, the guy was so supportive when my parents died, and he is being horrific." But there was no explaining it; this was a guy who didn’t get it, and he didn’t get it. He just didn’t. And… to me, when he wrote that email, I started with reading his email before Bover died, and he said, "You’re gonna think it's silly." Because part of him thought it was silly, even though he was feeling so panicked that his dog is, is failing. He—part of him thought, "Well, this is silly. I'm an adult; this is an animal. I shouldn’t have these feelings." And I don’t know where we get that, but of course we should have these feelings. When somebody is so important to us, in such an integral part of our daily lives, we come home, there is no human that's gonna treat us with that kind of delight on a regular basis (laughs).

Paul: And consistency.

Dr. Winch: Yes! And we can actually leave for 10 minutes to go to the corner and come back. And it'll be the same excitement all over again. We do not get that from a human being. We, we form profound bonds with our pets. And yet, when we lose them, there's just limited recognition how of profound that can be. Is it for everyone? No. Is it like that—but, for many people, it is.

Paul: So many, uh, times I read surveys where people say that the only thing keeping them alive is there pet.

Dr. Winch: Hmm! Yes. Yes, and for some, and for many people—look, I live in New York. It's one of those bug cities where you can get very, very lost. And, over the years, I've had many patients who were extraordinarily lonely. They just didn’t have a close cadre of friends, for what, all kinds of different reasons. They just weren’t that connected to a lot of people. But they had animals that they considered family. They considered family, in that even their friends would bring the animals Christmas presents because, why would you not bring that member of the family a, a Christmas present. You know, and, and, you can—sometimes this animal was 90 percent of their social interaction. Ninety percent of the source of emotional support and love and affection and companionship. So when that goes (sigh), it is profound.

Paul: I've been feeling silly lately. I shared with Guy before we started recording that I lost one of my, uh, dogs, uh, almost a year ago, about nine months ago. And I expected to be sad for three, six months. But I'm still crying. I can't put up pictures of him because I feel it in my heart. And … You talk in the book about how people … make—I dunno; I don't like to use the word mistakes, but common ways that they fail themselves in dealing with the loss of a pet and, uh, and the heartbreak. And, some ways that might help them. Can you, can you talk about those?

Dr. Winch: Yes, but let me say, as a principle. So, how do we measure whether we are processing grief, recovering, moving through it? How do we know whether we are progressing in our work of the grief or not? And, really the main, uh, uh … the, the main measure that I use is, uh, are you feeling better in month five than you did in month two? Are you thinking less about the loss in month five than in month two? Are you—is it preoccupying you less? Is it—when you think about it, is the ache that you have not a 10 on the scale of one to ten, but a seven perhaps? And, when grief work happens correctly, there should be a gradual diminishing of the emotional pain, of intrusive thoughts, of the crying episodes, of how much it preoccupies you, of how much it impairs your functioning. All those things should be gradually getting better. When they don’t, or when they progress a bit and stall—and I'm not suggesting you're, you are stalled for still being sad that many months later, because it depends on the, on the meaning of the loss. But, is there a progression of getting better, even if it's slow? Is there continual movement? And if there is: okay. If there is not, that’s when things might be problematic. The thing is, because we don’t talk about this, because we don’t have the dialogue, because we think it's silly, we don’t actually know what are the things we should do, what are the things we shouldn’t do. So, for example: Some people—you said you have trouble putting up pictures. It's one of those things that can operate differently for different people. For some people, keeping pictures up keeps them stuck, and they need to, at some point, get rid of the pictures. For some people, they get rid of the pictures right away, but they want to bring them back when they're feeling better, perhaps, like in your situation. But it's a long time 'til they do. Should they then put up the pictures and just deal with it or not? And, there's no right answer, per se. You have to know what works for you, what sets you back. The mistakes we make is not looking at our progressin, not—uh progression. Not looking at whether we are getting better; whether we are healing as a, as the measure of are we doing the right thing, do we need to do something differently. With pet loss, for example, um, with this guy Ben, for example: There were a lot of void that were created when his dog died. He no longer went to the dog run. That was a big source of socialization for him. He worked from home. There was no office, there were no people; it was just him isolated in the apartment. Three or four times a day he took Bover out. It got him to interact with people in the neighborhood. Everyone stopped him to pet the dog, the dog was adorable. In the dog run, he was chatting with the regular people. All that went away. Now when that goes away, psychologically voids have to be filled. You can't just allow it to—"Okay, now I don't have that." No, but it has to be replaced. You have to fill that void. For him, it was, how is your socializing gonna work now? Who are you going to see? If you stay in the apartment where you're working from home all day, and then stay there all evening, you're completely isolated.

Paul: So, he needs video games and ice cream.

Dr. Winch: No, (Paul laughs) cuz the video games—

Paul: I was just being silly.

Dr. Winch: He needs video games if he were playing with someone, alongside somebody.

Paul: Right.

Dr. Winch: In other words, he needs, you know—if that would put him in touch with people, terrific. But, he became extraordinarily isolated as a result.

Paul: And that's a common thing. You wrote, uh, that people—

Dr. Winch: It's a common thing that we don’t fill voids. And we think we should just be okay without them, because, "Well, the dog died. So there's nothing I can do." No, there's a lot you need to do.

Paul: Or, or we fill voids with things that are numbing instead of nurturing.

Dr. Winch: Well, ice cream and video games, for example. Alcohol, for example.

Paul: Uh-hum … yeah. We—my ex and I, uh, we had two dogs. Herbert died in, in May of last year, um, and Ivy is, uh, 14 and a half right now.

Dr. Winch:: Wow.

Paul: And I go and let her out, uh, every weekday when my ex is working. And I feel such sadness every time I go there. And, um, it just, it, sh, she's not even dead yet. Her name's Ivy, and she's not even (chuckles) dead yet. And, I feel this, gr—like, gray sense, and I did with Herbert, too, is their mortality, uh, ends or gets near its end, that I'm somehow failing them, even though I can't think of any particular thing. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Winch: Yes, it's very common, with pet loss, to feel significant guilt, um, after the pet dies, um, regardless of the circumstance. Obviously, certain circumstances are going to warrant it more. Animals can't express that they're in distress, and with, um, dogs for example, they're gonna wag their tail when they see you, even if they're in pain. It, it's very difficult to tell, and so you can tell when something is very, very obviously wrong. If this were a human, they would alert you that they're in discomfort or pain or something's not right way before. So, we often catch things with animals really, really, late because, they're not alerting us and we can't tell. And there's always a "Could I have done more?" Animals often, we don't know when they're about to go. In this case, Bover was at the vet, who alerted Ben to come. But if Bover had been home, Ben would have shown up and Bover would have been dead. And he would have felt EVEN worse that he wasn’t there for it. How could he have been? (Stumbles on words) And that happens all the time, that they slip quietly away. Or, the ones that die, because of an accident, and we think, "Oh, if I had held the leash a little bit tighter, or if I knew that, or—"

Paul: I, I cannot imagine what that is like. I cannot imagine.

Dr. Winch: It's, it's terrible. And, it's traumatic. And with cats, you know, cats—you know, I left the door open, and the cat ran away, and, um why did I do that? And, oh I didn't know they were allergic to this. And … so there's a lot of guilt we have sometimes with animals. And, and what I always say to people in that situation is, um—because the people who are feeling the guilt most, who tend to be the most devoted owners … right? They tend to be extremely devoted, extremely loving. And they tend to give their animals an amazing life. And I, I think it's important to focus on that. That, uh … don't reduce your interaction and your experience to the last hour … the last day, the last week, whatever it was … look at what you, look at the life you gave, your, your pet.

Paul: I put them both through college, which I think is huge.

Dr. Winch: I think that's a financial and emotional investment, which is significant.

Paul: But I feel such guilt that I didn't pay for their master's (laughter). I feel like I let them down.

Dr. Winch: I'm sure they, they were disappointed by that. But, but truly, in other words, we, you know I, I've … I dunno if you’ve seen. But I sometimes see pet owners who don't know how to treat their animals well and who don't treat their animals well, and who neglect the animals. And, and, you know, rescue dogs are rescue dogs because somebody needed to rescue them from the previous owners, specifically, right? And then, you have to compare what you're giving to what's the best life that animal could have had. Probably the one you gave it. And, therefore, guilt should be the last thing that you should be feeling. Loss? For sure. Grief? For sure.

Paul: So, try to focus on what you did give them—

Dr. Winch: Yes.

Paul: Essentially.

Dr. Winch: That you gave them an amazing life. And that, because of the limitations, you can't read their mind, predict, and whether they would have died when you weren’t home or when you were home, you might have been able to say more of a goodbye. But, essentially, they lived an amazing life because of you.

Paul: That they, that I can agree when I stop and think about it. Cuz they were, uh, well, uh—Ivy's still alive, but they're both rescues. And, um, I know, definitely, that they, that they had good lives. It—one of the things that hurt so much—Herbert, uh, is the one that died, and he used to do this thing when he would get excited in the backyard. He would, when he would jump up to the porch from the, from the grass, uh, it was only—the porch was only, maybe three inches high. But, he would jump like three feet high and extend—

Dr. Winch: Like a gazelle!

Paul: —like he's going over a hurdle.

Dr. Winch: Like a gazelle kind of thing.

Paul: Yeah, and we called it Superman, because his, he would stick his—

Dr. Winch: Oh, right, right, right the Superman pose—

Paul: —font legs ways out, and his back legs way out. And it was an expression of his … just joy—

Dr. Winch: Yeah.

Paul: And, when I think about that, it, it hurts so much that that, that that is gone. Do you think there's a part of us … that also mourns, maybe injuries that we had in our lives previously? Things that, um, maybe we transfer stuff, uh, from our lives onto our relationships with our dogs? And the reason I ask is this one night, I started crying about Herbert. And, (chuckles) a lot of times where I cry, I'll, I'll talk to him, as if he's here. And I suddenly realized that a lot of what I was saying are things that I would've loved to have gotten in a time machine and go back and tell myself when I was at the worst parts of my childhood. Is, is that something that you see, or is that just, uh, me, uh, … (chuckles) thinking about myself too much (chuckles)?

Dr. Winch: It's something you see in grief.

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Winch: Because grief brings up a lot of introspection. It sends you back to all kinds of different moments in your life. Some people visit the happy moments; some people, the sad moments. Some people, happy moments that aren’t related, sad moments that aren’t related. It just evokes such strong emotion, that our brain then associates to that emotion in all kinds of ways, and it then always comes back to the present loss, which is the grief work about, about the pet, in this case. So, it just—grief, in general, does that; it evokes a lot. But, let's just look at Herbert, for example. So, 15, he was? How old was he?

Paul: 14.

Dr. Winch: 14.

Paul: 13, 14.

Dr. Winch: 13, 14. So, you had him for many, many years. And, you were with your ex for a lot of those years. Now, you aren’t. So, he's symbolizes not just his relationship with you, your relationship with him, but times with your ex, different moments and adventures in your life, happier times, sadder times. The associations you have to this span of time, uh, brings up a lot of dramatic moments, positive, negative, of all kinds. All those get stirred up in our, in our grief-processing work. And that's in part why we have to take this so seriously. Because it's not just about the dog dying, or the cat dying, or the horse dying. It's, it's about everything they symbolizes, everything that we were associating with them. Everything that we tended to—those periods in our life, those chapters that now close and … we started a new one, or we haven’t but, but that one is closed and we have to mourn then ending of that period. And sometimes people, that period is then associated with the negative or sad period. But it's still an ending of something that we mourn. So, it evokes a lot.

Paul: One of the things that, that I, uh, struggled with, particularly in the beginning when I split with my ex, was the inability to let them know why I'm not there.

Dr. Winch: Hmm. I know. And that's, that's … with dogs and toddlers, essentially—

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Winch: I mean, because even three-year-old can have some comprehension about, you know, "Daddy's going away. But he loves you, but he'll only be back on weekends." Dogs don’t understand that. The one thing I can tell you to comfort you is that dog's attention span is very, very , limited. So, um, they are not very reflective animals; neither are cats. They are unlikely to sit around going, "Huh. I haven’t seen him (Paul chuckles) for a while. I wonder what's going on." What's not in front of them, they're not really thinking about all that much. However, when you walk in, they’ll be thrilled to see you. And, in that moment, I don’t know dog psychology enough to know if that thought is like, "Oh, yeah. You haven’t been around. Where have you been?" In that moment, perhaps, but it's less likely to happen five hours after you left. Do you, do you know what I mean?

Paul: So, what you're saying is that I'm not interesting?

Dr. Winch: To dogs (Paul laughs), in your absence … your absence is not interesting.

Paul: You are so good (laughs) at not denying my humor (Dr. Winch laughs), but staying a therapist in that moment. You are so good at it.

Dr. Winch: I'm here on duty. I'm here on duty.

Paul: You're so good at it. One last thing about the, the pet thing. And you wrote about this in the book, is—I am terrified. I long so much to get another dog, but I am terrified of being open to this kind of hurt again.

Dr. Winch: And that is the most common feeling to have. There's the "I'm terrified to opening myself up to this again," "It feel extraordinarily disloyal," "If I do attach to this new animal, does it mean I didn't love Herbert enough, or Ivy enough, or does it mean that I don’t care about them?" And these are the thoughts people have. When you get a new dog, you will find that you can have as much fondness and love for Herbert and his memory. It will not prevent you from attaching to the new dog. Just like when people have second child, they don’t stop loving the first. It is curative to get another dog. It is helpful.

Paul: So, uh, what you're saying is the ghost of Herbert won't spit me.

Dr. Winch: No. And, and, and, you will find—I mean, you're a dog lover. You won't be able to resist the new dog. You will fall for the new dog quickly. And it, and it wi—talk about filling voids. Pets are something we can—when … we'll talk about heartbreak in a minute, of romantic heartbreak. It is much easier to get a new pet than it is to get a new significant other. The selection process goes, it's much more one-sided and, and (Paul chuckles) easier. And we should avail ourselves of it, because if you really love animals, um, get another one. Rescue another animal. They are many that need to be rescued. It's not disloyal, uh, and it will—would it hurt when that animal eventually dies? Yes. Is it worth the 15 years you might have of, of joy with them? Yes, it's worth it.

Paul: The other thing that, that I noticed, is, uh, we had a dog previous to Herbert and Ivy, and it—we had that dog for, uh, 14 years. And it was a dog we found on the highway—

Dr. Winch: Wow!

Paul: —when it was, like a year old. And here name was Charlie (sp.).

Dr. Winch: That's a real, real rescue situation.

Paul: Real rescue. It's so funny: the moment we found her, she ... didn’t really know where she was going, and it was this desolate highway. And, we pulled the car over. And we called her to try to come to us. And she turned to us, and then she turned the other way and looked at this, almost cartoon-like stretch of highway (Dr. Winch laughs) into nothing. You could see the wheels turning, and then she came to us.

Dr. Winch: "When should I do here? That doesn’t look so great over there. Let's risk it."

Paul: Yeah. But, as painful as it was, it seems like it was less painful because I was living with someone then, and we got Ivy within three months of, of Charlie. And, it, it didn’t feel like we were saying, "Oh, we can't live with this anymore." It just felt like, okay, you know, now is the right time. But I, I didn’t have that … fear of, uh … it wasn’t as intense, the fear that I'm gonna feel, I'm gonna feel that pain again.

Dr. Winch: Look, at the, at the context of our lives really matters. Because certain losses can happen in the same way, but hit us very differently depending on where we are on our lives, what the circumstance is, how we're feeling, in general, about certain things. We are more vulnerable at certain times than at other time. And, we are more proactive and, and more, you know, more gung-ho about moving on at certain times than we are at other times. I, my general suggestion, um, is that those who can, um, adopt another animal, um, should, because it really helps with the pain, it truly helps with the grief. It's, it's something that you want and need in your life. And I don’t think you should deprive yourself of it, unless there's good reason; unless my circumstance won't allow me to be as, you know, dedicated a pet owner as I need to be. All right. But other than that, um, you should.

[00:52:00] Paul: Okay. Let's move on to, um, romantic heartbreak. Oh, and … before we do that, talk about the science of, uh, the brain, uh, that, that you kind of elaborate on in the book, talking about emotional pain, heartbreak.

Dr. Winch: So, there are … there's a lot of neuroscience now, uh, about what heartbreak, uh, does to us. Most of it is in the romantic love area, because truly roman—I mean it's interesting, right? Because neuroscientists' are shoving people into functional MRI machines, and having them reminiscence about the woman who just broke their or the man who just broke their heart and looking about what happens in their brain when they do that. I don’t know of any experiments that have done that about pet loss. But, to me, that's just a refle—and maybe there are. Maybe I'm not informed of every journal out there. But to me, that’s just another way in which we diminish the importance of, uh, the attachments we have to pets, and we should not.

Paul: I have never cried for a si-, for a person, one-one thousandth of the way I have cried for Herbert., including my father.

Dr. Winch: Right. Well, see, that’s another good example. And we're all like that, except we don’t talk about it. So, we just sit there with those feelings, think, "Well, that's an aberration on my part." But it's not! That’s the whole point. But we need to make that more of a public discussion. We need to bring this out into the open about something—we don’t feel silly or shameful or embarrassed. No, these are natural responses. Because are, they're, they're truly—the grief that happens, happens. Whether we consider it legitimate or not, it's going on. So, um, but the neuroscience about heartbreak, um, shows the mechanism to get activated in the brain. The number one thing, um, that is relevant here is that the, the emotional pain that can be caused be, uh, grief, you know, for example, is profound and it mimics, um, physical pain, uh, you know, in certain ways. I wrote about that in my last book as well—Emotional First Aid.

Paul: In terms of the brain

Dr. Winch: In terms of the brain. That there—very similar structures get activated when we're experiencing emotional pain as when we experience physical pain. And we respond in very, very similar ways. When somebody, like, smacks into us and bumps us and it really hurts, we don’t turn to them and go, "Ow." We turn to them and go, "What the hell?!" And we get really angry, and that's the response we get, um, from heartbreak, when it's romantic heartbreak, not when the dog died—don’t get angry at the dog. But with romantic heartbreak, we get really distraught, but angry and, you know, there's a lot that gets activated. With romantic heartbreak, the thing that’s most interesting, uh, to me, at least in terms of the studies that I was reading, is that there is a huge overlap in what happens in our brain when love is withdrawn and what happens in our brain when substances like cocaine and opioids are withdrawn. We begin to behave like addicts in withdrawal, except we're not aware that that's what's going on. All we're aware of is an incredible compulsion to go over every text message, to reach out—

Paul: Wanna know why.

Dr. Winch: To want to know why. Come up with all these different theories.

Paul: See what they're up to on Facebook.

Dr. Winch: On Facebook, on Instagram, on YouTube, on a— we will stalk them in any possible way. We become obsessed, we become compulsive, we can think of nothing else. And if they make the mistake of actually responding to one of our 500 texts that we're sending them, then the sense of, like, joy and relief we get, you know, is significant and then we keep reaching out and we keep trying and we keep, you know hoping—

Paul: It's insatiable.

Dr. Winch: It's insatiable, in the same way that when you're withdrawing from opioids or cocaine or—let's say opioids, cuz that's a more significant withdrawal—there is nothing else that matters to you. You need to get a fix; that is the one priority you have in life. And until you do, anyone … everything doesn’t matter. And that's how we feel when we're heartbroken. So that is profound, because when we see an addict with, you know, obviously, you know, needle marks on their arm, walking around in a daze, and like obsessed with something, "Huh! Addict." We are like that when we’re heartbroken, and we don’t recognize it. We don’t recognize in ourselves that that’s what's going on. So we rationalize it. And how we rationalize it is we come up with all these needs and these stories about why we should be stalking them on Instagram. "I just want to see how they're doing. I just want to see if they're in pain as well." People will say to me, "I go through all the Facebook because I want to see if they're suffering, too." Nobody puts their suffering on Facebook (Paul chuckles). If they are, you won't know if from Facebook or Instagram. Nobody posts pictures of them crying on the toilet (Paul chuckles). We don’t. And, and so—

Paul: You haven't followed @cryingonthetoilet (Dr. Winch laughs). Yeah, it's a terrific account. The photography is a little repetitive. But, um, it, uh, the, the, the thing that I've noticed, uh, about people that do the obsessive thing after they get their heart broken is, they, they want to know why. And they want to also try to control what the mutual friends think. And they can talk about nothing else with those friends. And you talk about that in the book. The gray area of the support system, the friend of the heartbroken person. Can you talk about—

Dr. Winch: Yeah.

Paul: —that?

Dr. Winch: So, um, the friends, uh—social support has been found to be an extraordinarily important thing for recovery from grief. Period. That's pet loss, that's heartbreak. But grief especially. Social support, super important. Except that, there's this interesting thing that happens. Our empathy, uh, comes with an expiration date when it's about heartbreak not ours. In other words, our best friend or dear friend is heartbroken. We will, "Ah. So sorry," and we’ll be very, very supportive. In our heads, in the back of our minds in an unconscious way, we will have a time by which we think they should be over it, roughly.

Paul: Um-hum.

Dr. Winch: And if they go past that time, there is something that happens where we will start to become impatient. We will start to become aggravated that they're still talking about it. Because, in our heads, we have this assumption of, "It's distressing for me to be with your distress and to support you, because I care for you. So, it’s hard for me to see you in distress. I will do that for you. I will be there for you, with this tacit assumption that you will do what you need to heal. But if you're not healing fast enough, the—" Again, this unconscious assumption is that, "You're not doing your part. And then I start feeling resentful about having to still do my part. Here I am, still being supportive, and you're not getting over it." And, the empathy vanishes. And it's interesting, because we don’t have a statute of limitations when it comes to physical pain. If you're a, god forbid, a burn victim, and you're changing your bandages for a year, and you're in pain, we will not (unintelligible), "Ah, I don’t want to hear about it anymore." But we do, when it comes to emotional pain. When it gets to the point where we think you should be over it, and not for any reason other than this arbitrary thing that happens in our own head, our empathy vanishes, our patience vanishes. We begin to be resentful. And, we are starting to go like, "*Sigh.* All right." Like, it becomes an effort. Now, what we have to recognize is that our timetable is not THE timetable. People get over things as they get over things. Now, might the person be stuck and might they need to do things to work through their grief more quickly? Perhaps. But then our response should be, "Hey, you know what? You're on month four, and I don’t think you're feeling much better than you did two months ago. I think you're feeling a little stuck. Let's talk about how you're dealing with the grief and what you can do about it." That you be helpful, if you're coming from a compassionate place when you say it. But usually we don’t; we just feel like, "Ugh! They're still not over it."

Paul: "Oh my god! Look who's calling?"

Dr. Winch: Yeah.

Paul: "Look who's calling? Oh, fuck."

Dr. Winch: And, so, it's a misperception on our part about how quickly somebody should or shouldn’t be over it, number one. And number two, it is true, in many cases, we don’t know how to do the right things and we end up doing the wrong things, which actually does then extend, um, our grief and our pain significantly.

Paul: Is there a line, though, between someone who has a pattern of being addicted to indignation and being the victim in draining people with that, and somebody who's just taking a little longer to, to get through, um, heartbreak?

Dr. Winch: Yes, and I think that’s a really interesting distinction that you draw. Because there are some people who, um, characterologically, in terms of their sense of identity, how they're coping mechanisms work, they go to the victim place. They, they, there's something that feels familiar and even slightly satisfying about, uh, being vulnerable or being the victim or, you know, they have a perception of that, you know, like sucks, the world is a terrible place in general. And then there's something very validating when, indeed, bad things happen to you. And those people can make a meal, um, out of the grief. Not that they don’t experience it, but, for them, there's actually something validating in staying in that place.

Paul: Yes,

Dr. Winch: That is different from somebody who doesn’t come across that way ordinarily, who-whose … that isn't their life view ordinarily.

Paul: I see. So, their previous pattern of dealing with things should maybe be taken into account.

Dr. Winch: Correct. In other words, for some people—I know in my own head, I'm guilty of, when somebody calls and they tell me about a break-up or even the loss of a pet. For some people, the thought does go through my head, "The latest tragedy in their life."

Paul: Uh-hum.

Dr. Winch: Because, there's always tragedies in their life. Now, there are tragedies in everyone's life. Do we present them this way? Do we think of them that way? Do we, do we, you know, is that our calling card? Calling, cuz now I have something else that's terrible that’s happened to me.

Paul: Right.

Dr. Winch: Yeah, we should make that distinction between those people and people who are not that way ordinarily that … usually optimistic, upbeat, uh, or deal, you know, very, very differently. They do get over things; this really hits them. And we know that, because we have that thought, "Wow This really hit them in a different way than I would have expected." And that means they're usually not that kind of person, but they really, this really got through to them. And I think those are the people who deserve the more compassion. Right?

Paul: The, the thing that, um, I have noticed, the, the way I can sometimes differentiate is, the person who is more prone to being addicted to the victim indignation and all of that. Generally, your interactions with them, or my interactions with them, is it's almost always about them.

Dr. Winch: Um-hum.

Paul: There's almost never an interest in your life—

Dr. Winch: Right.

Paul: —and in really listening.

Dr. Winch: Right.

Paul: You know, when they're listening, it's just very, "Oh, yeah. Well that sounds great. Now back to me."

Dr. Winch: Um-hum, right. Look, there are those people—in my first book, the squeaky wheel, it's about the psychology of a complainer, and I have a whole chapter about chronic complainers. And, um, in essence, it's, it's that, right? It's people whose victimhood is their primary sense of identity. It's how they present—if they present a story of woe to you, that you can actually say, "Oh, but actually right here, I have, uh, I have advice. I have something you can do that will help that." They almost get annoyed.

Paul: Yes.

Dr. Winch: "But don’t take away my tragedy. That's, um—I'm planning to be dining on that for a while, now. Don't, don't tell me I can't." Yeah, so it's a very, very different vibe, and it is usually very focused, um, on them, because they truly feel that their life is more tragic than yours. So, you don’t have the right to complain: things go much better than you, you … as evidenced by the fact that you don’t complain as much as they do. So you must have a better life, so it should be more about them. You know, there's all these justifications people have.

Paul: And, and there's such a gray area, too, um, which makes it, uh, so challenging sometimes to know how to honor what it is that you're feeling and not tell yourself you're a terrible person for feeling resentment at this person. But also, wanting to give that person, uh, compassion without, uh, trying to fix them. To just listen, you know. One of the things I read so often with, uh, people who survive sexual trauma is, they're traumatized again by opening up about it to somebody who dismisses it or tries to fix them and doesn't really just listen, and, uh, you know, to use the psychology term, "hold pace" for them.

Dr. Winch: Look, I think in general, when we're looking for social support, we have to be extremely judicious about the choices we're making. Because people have different capacities to listen. There's different capacities in terms of how validating they can be and how … like, people can have empathy, but if you don't know how to exp-, verbalize the empathy, I don’t know if you have it. You might be sitting there feeling so much for, but if you don’t have the words to use and all you're saying is, "Wow, bummer," I'm not getting that. So, we … it's not about just, go talk to people. Like, who are the people that will really get? Who are the people that can really, um, listen well? We should always ask ourselves that, that question. Who are the people that it would be too burdensome, because of what's going on in their own life? So, even though I'm—

Paul: Or, they're not emotionally adept.

Dr. Winch: All of that. So, but—so, if you're going looking for empathy, looking for emotional validation, think about whether the person has it to offer.

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Winch: I also think, in terms of the friendships of the people who come at you too much of the woe, some people—not all—but some of them, um, do that, but they also really think of themselves as being good friends. And for those people, when you say, "Look, I just want to point something out. I said a few minutes ago that I was upset about blah, blah, blah. And you kind of dismissed it. And now we're back to talking about you. And I wanna feel that it can be about me as well." And some of them will look at you and get horribly defensive and insulted that you would even suggest that they weren't interested in you. And some of them would go, "Oh. You know what? I'm sorry, you're right." Because, even though they are really interested in talking about them, they're also interested in being a good friend. So put it out there at least once—

Paul: Yes.

Dr. Winch: —see what you get.

Paul: I've done it three times, and it has gone well every time.—

Dr. Winch: Oh, wonderful!

Paul: The pe-, they thanked me for bringing it to their attention. And more importantly, now I don’t feel dread and resent, uh, resentment when I see their number on the phone.

Dr. Winch: But, it, you have to be brave to do that. Because, (A) it's, it's … it can feel very uncomfortable to do, to say to someone, "Hey, be a better friend." I think it's so important.

Paul: It's really important, and what I tried to do was I tried to remember to just … talk about it from, uh, the point of my feelings instead of, "This is a fact, that you do this," I just said, "You know, I, I … sometimes start to feel resentful when we have conversations because I feel like I'm an audience member. And I care about you, and I don’t won't to feel resentful. I don’t wanna keep stuff hidden away, and I feel like, as difficult as it is to say, um, it's important for me to let you know what I'm experiencing."

Dr. Winch: Right.

Paul: And then there was one person who I said, "We've been talking for 45 minutes, and you have talked for 44 minutes and 30 seconds." And he had no idea, and he said, "Wow! I'm so sorry. Thank you for saying that."

Dr. Winch: So, you know what's interesting? I sometimes will sit in a session with a couple, uh, let's say a first session. And in the first session, I want to hear from each of them. And one of them will give me a three-minute intro, and the other will go on for 12 minutes. And I'll stop them at some point and I'll say, "I … I'm gonna stop you because, um, is this typical that you'll speak for three minutes and you'll speak for longer?" And, the person who spoke for three minutes will nod and go like, "Oh, yeah, that happens all the time." And the other person look at me and goes, "We spoke for the same amount of time." And I, because I have a clock, I will literally go and say, "Three minutes. Twelve, and I had to stop you." And they're like, "I don’t think so." And I'm like, "No, I'm telling you the time." So then, what if that's the case, and they're literally blown away because they had no idea—

Paul: No idea. It's why I will not go to a support meeting that doesn’t have a timer.

Dr. Winch: Hmm.

Paul: I just won't. It's, it's, it's too, um—one of the issues I had in childhood was, uh, a parent who had no sense of how long they were talking for.

Dr. Winch: Oh, wow.

Paul: And, uh, I ju-, began to feel all of that kind of stuffed rage, because I was the captive audience member of the family who felt like I had to be there—

Dr. Winch: Right.

Paul: —for them. And, uh, I just have no, no tolerance for it.

Dr. Winch: And I'm an identical twin. So, I'm extraordinarily sensitive to things being equal to the second.

Paul: Oh my god (laughter). My god.

Dr. Winch: I'm hyper aware (laughter).

Paul: Anything else that you'd like to touch on and the, the thing about, uh, heartbreak? Maybe some, some tips or things to, for people to expect, um, after having their heart broken.

Dr. Winch: So, the main premise that I talk about in the book—and I also have a TED Talk that's out, uh will be out—

Paul: I'll put a link to it on our show notes—

Dr. Winch: —will be out by the time … yeah … in which I emphasize that, is that, when we are heartbroken, our mind is going to consistently mislead us into doing the wrong thing. We literally cannot trust your instincts, because they're going to be all wrong. Here’s an example: Our mind is going to inundate us with memories of how amazing the person was that we're no longer with. We’re gonna have images in our head of all the times we were laughing and making love and enjoying each other's company. Our mind will create an extraordinarily idealized version of them and of the relationship. And all that will do is make our loss feel significantly more profound. It will make the heartbreak much, uh, greater. And it will make our recovery, uh, much more complicated. And, our mind will do that. And, we'll keep thinking that they're the only one: "I'll never find somebody as great as them. The relationship was terrific." Now, what’s useful for me as a therapist is, um—and I say this in the book—few people come to talk about heartbreak. Usually, we’re talking about other things; heartbreak happens along the way. And so I actually know, that the relationship wasn’t perfect. I can actually say to them, "Oh, that's interesting. There was the time they made you sob like crazy and such and such. And there were the all the time they said, 'We’re so incompatible, I don’t know what we’re doing together.' There was a time you lamented all the friends you can’t see because they don’t get along with them, etc. etc., etc." So, your mind is going to inundate you with images of perfection. You can’t stop your mind from doing that. What you can do, and what you need to do is to introduce the other images, the images of their imperfections, all the ways they were wrong for you, um, and all of that to balance out the picture.

Paul: I, I have had a conversation with somebody who was, uh, heartbroken, where I had to remind them that, multiple times, they said to me, "She is the most evil person in the world."

Dr. Winch: Yes.

Paul: I mean, that speaks to how … illogical sometimes it can be, or complicated—

Dr. Winch: But, think of the heroin, right? So, think of the heroin of the opioids, and people know, "Oh, this substance is ruining my life. Literally ruining my life and is the only thing I want." It is, it comes from that. And so, but, with heroin, you can't balance out something psychologically. You can with heartbreak. So you have to be aware, um, of all the ways your mind is setting you up to do the wrong thing, to feel the wrong thing, and you have to actively take steps to balance that out. And that's the thing about heartbreak, we don’t know to do these things. We just go on autopilot and assume, "Oh, it'll get better." It won't, unless you—or it might, over time, but longer time than it would—

Paul: Especially if you're isolating.

Dr. Winch: Especially if you're isolating. But especially, also, if you're indulging the whims that you have of, "Oh, it's three in the morning. I know? I can't sleep. So, surely going on Instagram and checking up on what my ex is doing will be the thing that'll help me go to sleep." (Laughter) No, it won't. And it won't help you in general. I actually, uh, wrote and app—it's a free app; it's on my web site. It's called Dr. Heartbreak. It's for younger people, but some, you know, less younger people can enjoy it as well. But, one of the tings in the app is the, the idealizing, you know, about how to counter these idealizing thoughts, and , and remind yourself of all the ways this person was wrong for you; reminding yourself of all the ways they actually made you unhappy. Not to vilify them; just to balance out that picture.

Paul: Yeah. Anything you'd like to, uh, share in closing?

Dr. Winch: Um …

Paul: I don't know why it got all formal there for a second. "In clos-, as we approach this closing ceremony (laughter), Dr. Guy Winch." Uh …

Dr. Winch: I, I, I, will say one thing: People who are heartbroken are in extraordinary pain. And when we are in extraordinary pain, it is very difficult we can conceive that we can do something that can expedite it. Because it just hurts so much, what … is there that will bring the person back, that will bring the animal back. There are steps we can and should take to make that pain, um, stay less, stay for a briefer amount of time. To move forward, to recover more quickly and more completely. And, if there are tools, you need to use them. So inform yourself of them … of, of—inform yourself of what they are, and don’t just accept the pain as, "Well, time heals all." It's a very passive approach, time heals all. Time does; let's add some other ingredients to that mix and make it work more expeditiously and more effectively. And that's my point about psychology, in general. There are, we need to be much more active in our management of our emotional lives, rather than just accepting whatever our brain and our mind throws at us to do. And if we are more active, and, and more proactive, and if we intervene in our emotional lives to do the things we know are correct and best for us, we will have better emotional lives. We'll be happier and more productive and, have better lives for it.

Paul: Love it. Love it. And, and, uh, something I would ask for the, uh—somebody who's supporting somebody who is heartbroken is: Have compassion for others, but not at the expense of compassion for yourself.

Dr. Winch: Yes.

Paul: Drguywinch.com; is that it?

Dr. Winch: Just guywinch.

Paul: Just guywinch.com. And, uh, we’ll put all the links up to your stuff. But, uh, thank you again for, uh, coming by, and it's great to see you again.

Dr. Winch: It' great to see you again, and I, thank you to your listeners, who I, I really think are wonderful.

Paul: They are.

__________________________

[01:16:46] Paul: I love talking to Guy Winch. He has some great TED Talks. I'm gonna put the links to all of his stuff under show notes for this episode. But, uh—yeah, check his books out, too. They're, they're great. And people, people love him and love, uh, his books.

[01:17:05] As I mentioned, today's episode is sponsored by, uh, Squarespace. And, if you have an idea that you want to turn into a … a web site. Could be, you know, maybe you make, uh, pottery or you got a blog, or you sell, uh, grenades. Uh, what a terrible example. (Laughs) You sell, let's say you sell clown shoes. You can customize everything, tweak it to how you want it so your web site does all the stuff that you need it to do, and you can do it with Squarespace. I've used it, it's super intuitive, their templates are beautiful. It's drag and drop. You don’t have to know code. It's all optimized right out of the box for mobile devices. There's nothing to install, patch, upgrade, ever. If you a have a question, they have, uh, and award-winning 24/7 customer support team. What more do you need to know? Destiny is calling. It says you need a web site. Make it with Squarespace. So, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code "mental" to save 10 percent off your first purchase of a web site or domain. That's squarespace.com, offer code "mental." And, uh, I'll put a link up to the Squarespace site that I created with, uh, pictures of dogs that I , uh, obsessively took for about a year at dog parks. And, uh, and also there's some music that, uh … snippets of music that I write and perform. Just made myself nauseous promoting (laughs), promoting myself. So go check that out.

[01:18:52] Let’s get to some surveys. This is a struggle in a sentence survey filled out by "Mackenzie (sp.)," and she writes about her depression: "Honestly, I'm only here because I don’t want my dog to be confused and hurt that I never came back for him." Yeah, as I mentioned in the interview with Guy, this is, uh, we see this a lot. About her, uh, eating disorder, not otherwise specified: "I don’t fit bulimia. I don't fit anorexia. I'm a mix, but nobody thinks to ask you how you are when you don't have a well-known eating disorder." And then a snapshot from her life: "'Aren't you hungry?' Forty-five minutes later: 'Do you really need to have seconds?'" Thank you for sharing that, Mackenzie. Hang in there, man. You're a teenager; you are … about to, uh, if you choose to fly the coop, so … hang in there.

[01:19:46] This is a happy moment filled out by "It Starts with an O, and Ends with D; in the Middle Look for C." And, uh, she writes, "Every time I step on a crack on the sidewalk, I have my own little victory party." That's awesome. I wonder how you got you got, if you did that yourself, if you decided to do that, or if you did exposure therapy with, uh, with a therapist. I'd be interested to know that.

[01:20:15] This is an awfulsome moment, filled out by "That Psycho Girl," and, uh—no many guys, uh, filled out the surveys this, uh, this week. Fellas, where are ya? Where are ya? This is, uh, an awfulsome moment, uh, as I said, filled out by "That Psycho Girl," and she wrote, "I recently had to fight with myself over killing myself or not. I locked myself in my room, with my roommates downstairs, with three bottles of pills in my hand. I was there for 12 hours. Eventually, I decided to try and call the suicide hotline for my area, because the suicidal thoughts weren't getting any better. I picked up the phone and dialed. Waited. Then heard an automated voice on the other end, telling me that there were five people in front of me, and there was a waiting time. I don't know why, but I started laughing uncontrollably. It was then that I realized I'm not alone." That might be one of the most … touching awfulsome moments I think we've, uh, we’ve read in a while. And it's so, um … uh … I dunno. That one just really moved me. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You know, you know what it is I like about that? Is, you are a seeker, and I love seekers. You … you … There was a part of your heart, it seems like, that was open for finding a glimmer of positivity. And in that moment, in your darkest fucking moment, is when you reached out and you grabbed that. And those are the kind of people that I really, really, love: the … the survivors, you know?

[01:22:05] This is a shame and secrets survey. And, uh, I mentioned a lot that every week, um, I go through about 10 shame and secret surveys, um, and I pick a couple to read. And there's almost always, some type of little theme that reveals itself in just those 10 surveys. Often that were taken in the span of two days, by different people. And the one that, from this grouping of 10, is, uh, women who, um … had non-consensual sex while in a relationship … uh, which is sadly so, so common. And this is filled out by "Jane," and … she's pansexual, in her 20s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, um … was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "I grew up in an abstinent-only culture, (Paul corrects) abstinence-only culture. And so, the only sexual encounters I've had had been with my rapist, who was also my husband. The first time I had sex, I can't remember it outside of an out-of-body experience. Yelling "no" over and over, and crying, wondering why someone I just married was hurting me so much. I wanted so much to tell someone, to have them tell me this wasn’t okay. But we moved afterwards to a different country, and that's where it got so much worse. I would wake up with him inside me, and I'd just feel so dirty about it. Like, I've been divorced and away from him for four years, and I still want to die and take off my skin and throw up. And I'm just so mad. The worst part of it is that I now can't get turned on without rape fantasy erotica or porn, and I feel like then maybe I deserved it because this is what I wanted." No. That is … it—first of all, that's a really common fantasy, and it has nothing to do whether … with whether … not that person wants that in, um, uh, real life. In fact … a lot of, uh people who study the link between trauma and sexuality, uh, will say that there is—and I'm paraphrasing. And this is something I've discovered, cuz I've read over 10,000 if these shame and secret surveys, many of which, the majority of which involve people talking about their sexual fantasies, um, and also elaborating on, uh traumas they've had in childhood and adolescence. And, there is a link between, uh, for many people, thing that make us anxious and the things that turn us on. And it almost seems like it's, it's our body's ways of trying to control that thing that makes us anxious or soothe us. So, um, no, this is a real thing, and this is no, this is no bearing on your morality or, you now, who you are sexually, all of that. So stop judging yourself. You, more than anything right now, you need self-compassion. It's time to be nice to yourself. She's been physically and emotionally abused, um, by her husband, uh, and her parents, uh, who've both been victims of emotional and sexual abuse that they never got treatment for. And also a few friends. "I mostly feel like I don't know who I am outside of that abuse. Like how do I categorize who I am if the way I react to shit is based on abuse?" Well, my thought is, take advantage of the fact that you are identifying with this abuse and go to a support group so that you can connect to other people, and then you, I think, will begin to experience a side of having experienced that, that is beautiful. So it's not … only the bad side of … trauma. I hope that makes sense. Any positive experiences with the abusers? "God, that's the worst part of it all, especially with my husband. I was so young when we got together. Well, 18, but it feels young. And he was older, and I thought he was so charming and just like Mr. Darcy. And even now I hate him so much, but the only romantic experience I have ever has was with him. And it feels like, how can you still like someone who hurts you so much?" Darkest thoughts: "When I'm with people sometimes I can't help but think about hurting them, like really badly. Like how easy it would be to push them out of a window, or how they would never expect it from me to just stab them. Or, if not physically hurt them, I spend so much time constructing a script of what could hurt people the most. What I could say that would hit someone just right them to crumble. Sometimes I wanna walk home when it's dark in fucked-up placed, because I really want to be touched by someone else. And that maybe, if I'm hurt again, I'll be able to have something that people would believe to point to." That is heartbreaking that … you have not … experienced the comfort of somebody that believes you. You so deserve that, and, uh, I could tell you every person, uh, if I may speak for them, listening to this right now, believes you. And, um … sending you some love. Darkest secrets: "I send audio messages to doms online, telling them to hurt me, even though after each time I do I have a panic attack and can't breathe, but still do it. When I was in fifth grade, nine years old, and my brother was four, I had him in dress, undress in front of my friends, so we could see what a penis looks like. I forgot this happened until about a year ago and I haven’t ever brought it up to him because I'm so afraid of the harm I would cause him by rem-, by reminding him. And also, I'm disgusted at myself for doing such a horrible thing." Let me just remind you that you were a child, and this is a time for you to be compassionate to yourself, um … but, um … You know, maybe … bring it up … with him. I, I can't—I'm not a therapist, but I can't imagine how it could hurt, um … You know, to, to me, if he, if he's experiencing pain, uh, around it, um, what would hurt would be him bringing it up to you and you minimizing it or denying his experience or anything else. So, um … I dunno; just my, just my thoughts. "Even though my husband used to beat me, only a couple of times …" Boy, look at that phrase: "Only a couple of times." It's amazing. It's AMAZING … what we tell ourselves to minimize our pain. "The way I was able to convince my family to let me leave him was when he strangled me. But he did that after I egged him on in a fight, knowing he would probably hit me because I wanted to be able to leave him." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Most powerful are rape fantasies, but specifically incestuous ones. I also really like watching men fuck. It feels like this is going to be traced to me, and I'm going to be exposed for being a horrible, disgusting person." You are not a horrible, disgusting person at all. You sound like a really beautiful, sensitive soul who, um, was dealt a really difficult hand and didn't have the tools, uh, yet to cope with the situation that was fucking baffling and overwhelming, and, um, and I think a support network will really help you find some self-love and, uh and start to heal. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would really like to tell my husband's parents what he did. I wanna tell them in full detail, how their son tortured me and destroyed everything good about me. And then I wanna ask them if me leaving him still made god hate me." That is heavy. That is heavy. I can't imagine how angry you must feel. (Pause) I can't imagine. You know, that, that second wound of being shamed, by people who have no fucking idea what the truth is. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish for forgiveness, from other, for myself, and I really wish I could love people without part of me wanting to hurt them." Well, how could … how could part of you NOT have anger, suppressed anger, you know? Suppre-, suppressed anger is never pretty. (Chuckles) Show me, show me dignified, beautiful, graceful suppressed anger. It doesn't exist, that, that I know of. It comes out in, you know, us exploding at the bus driver, or nit-picking at a loved one, or, you know, drinking ourselves to fucking death. Have you shared these things with others? "Yes and no. Some of them I've shared with my therapist or my sister. I'm too ashamed to share most with my therapist, and my sister has her own trauma. I don't need to add my own to her." First of all, I encourage you to share all of this with your therapist. And, a possibility is that, if you share this with your sister, it might be an opportunity for you to become even closer, the two of you, because you will both, perhaps, feel less alone. And you'll have somebody that … you know understands you, and vice versa, um, which is essentially what is so beautiful about support groups. So, just my two cents. "I tried sharing a bit on the sexual fantasies with one of my friends, and she was really nice and considerate about it. But now, I feel like I can't ever fight or disagree with her, because she has information she can lord over me." First of all, if she did that, she would not be a friend, and fuck what anybody thinks, uh, about whatever somebody gets off on thinking about. But I understand that, that anxiety, um … You know, if somebody were—let's say worst-case scenario, somebody comes up to you and says, "So and so told me that you get off on thinking about rape fantasies or incestuous rape fantasies, or watching men fuck. You’re a horrible, disgusting person." What I would say to them is, "So, something I think about in my mind, that doesn't harm anybody in reality, is worse than going out of your way to shame somebody about something that they have no control over." And then, just walk away. Actually, always have a mic with you, so that after you say that, you can drop the mic and then walk away. And maybe even hire, (chuckles) hire a couple of, uh, friends to always be around you so that when happens, uh, one of them can go, "Oh no, she didn't!" All right. How do you feel after writing these things down? "My body feels cold and hot, and I feel nauseous, and like I'm on the brink of dissociating, but still can feel some parts of my body." And she would like to hear, uh, more from people with dissociative identity disorder. If you haven’t listened to the episode with Melanie, uh, Melanie R., listen to that. It's a great episode about, uh, DID. But, uh, Jane, I just want to thank you for, um, your survey. It's really moving and you really poured your heart out. And, you are clearly a sensitive soul, and you deserve love and to feel safe in the world. And, I have the feeling, if you keep seeking, um, and keep getting help, I, I have the feeling you will.

[01:35:44] This an awfulsome moment filled out by "Eddie Spaghetti," and, uh, he writes, "My dad was obsessed with plastic containers. Anything that could hold something. Anyway, he was dying from emphysema, and had long given up smoking but loved Nicorette. So when I was cleaning out his apartment after he passed away, I found four 13 –gallon garbage cans filled with empty Nicorette containers that he had amassed over the years. As I was taking them out to the garbage can at his apartment, I tripped and knocked roughly 2,000 Nicorette bottles all around the garbage can area. It was like a sea of little blue bottles sprayed everywhere. I was exhausted and emotional as it was, but there was something about the way that the sunset shimmered across the sea of blue bottles that left me in hysterics for about 10 minutes." Thank you for that, Eddie. That … Oh! I LOVE moments like that, when it's … the anger just turns into ridiculous laughter. That is, that is just like a gift from the universe in those moments. And what a picture you paint, too (chuckles): a sea of shimmering blue Nicorette bottles. Oh my god! And what if each one had a tiny little SOS message from a smoker trapped on a desert island. (Laughs). "Bring me a lighter!" That's what they all said (chuckles). "Send help, and a lighter."

[01:37:17] This is filled out by "Heron." This is a shame and secret survey. And … She's straight, in her 30s, raised in a stable and safe environment, uh, was the victim of, uh, sexual abuse, and once she reported it. And once she never reported it. "I was raped by an actor in a movie that shooting in my town when I was 14. I met him through a friend whose parents were housing a bunch of the actors during the shoot. I was smitten with him, because he was very exotic and very good looking. One night, I wound up in a hotel with him and some other friends. He took off all my clothes and started kissing and touching me. Then, he took off his clothes and started trying to have sex with me. I said that I didn't want to do that, but he kept pushing. Literally. I started crying because I realized how stupid I was for getting myself into that situation and because it hurt. He kept pushing, even though I was crying. He finally stopped because I was starting to cry louder, and he didn't want everyone else to hear. I said I had to go to the bathroom and saw blood on the sheets and all over my legs. That's how I lost my virginity." (Sighs) And I just realized the, the, um, theme actually was, um, people losing their, uh, virginity, uh, uh, in a coercive manner. I thought it was, um … the other thing. (Chuckles) My brain, man. My brain—even though I had a big, strong cup of tea, it is, uh … it's not all there. Any positive experiences with, uh, people who've abused you. "At the time, I felt a profound combination of extreme guilt, terror at the possibility of being pregnant, and pride that a good-looking actor like him would choose me. When I tell people about that moment now that I'm in my 40s, it feels like bragging because they think it's cool I lost my virginity to a Mohican. I guess it is bragging, actually. I do feel weird about that." Darkest thoughts: "It's not very often, but when I am in the throes of self-loathing, I imagine myself being impaled, very slowly, on huge spikes through my torso. There's always a lot of blood and pain." Darkest secrets: "When I was manic, I almost drilled a hole in my head, because I thought that was the equivalent of take 'the red pill' from the matrix. I thought I would be Neo if I drilled a hole through my head." Wow. That is INTENSE! That is, um … That is some intense mania. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Hmm, this one is hard to answer. I have a lot of weird sexual fantasies: rape, alien, robots, incest. Sharing that makes me feel exposed." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would like to say to my cats that I'm sorry for abandoning them to animal control It's the worst thig I have ever done in my life, and I will always regret it." What, if anything, do you wish for? "A fully, self-expressed life." Thank you, thank you for sharing all of that. Oh, there's one more page; sorry. Have you shared these things with others: "I have shared them with some people. My secrets about rape and abuse don’t bother me as much as my secret about abandoning my cats. I've only told one other, or two other people about that." How do you feel after writing these things down? "A little light-headed." Thank you for sharing all that. And, um … Being hard on yourself ... Man, listen to me. For the rest of you like about that, is not gonna take the pain away. So why not experiment with forgiving yourself and see where that leads? Just try it. Just try it.

[01:41:34] This is a happy moment … filled out by "Sazzers (sp.)," and, uh, she writes, "I read a journal entry from when I was in an emotionally abusive relationship—" Oh, that's what made me think about this, the other one. "I talked about how alone an anxious I felt with him, but desperately wanted him to love me and be with him. I literally said my world will crumble and fail without him and I will feel so alone. I spoke about how I don’t have a group of friends that care. I mentioned I couldn’t even stay home during the day with my own anxious thoughts because it would destroy me. All I wanted to do was live my life, but all I could feel was jealousy, self-doubt, loneliness, and stress; stress that I would end up alone. Two years later, I've been single and seeing a therapist. This is the best I've been in my life, and I cannot thank therapy enough. It’s been long journey, and not easy to get where I am now, though it's not perfect and I feel anxious and depressed from time to time. It's a breath of fresh air to what my life used to be like with him. The whole relationship was as if I was holding my breath and sinking to the bottom with weights on my shoulders. I never thought I'd believe in myself as I do now. Yet, here I am, living and shit without that narcissistic bastard. I'm pretty fucking proud of myself." High five, man! HIIIIGH fucking five! Love reading that.

[01:43:05] Ugh! Forties Therapist has something that he would like to add. WHAT?!

[01:43:12] Forties Therapist: I just wanna say, way to go, Doll Face! You don't let a fella give you the business; you give HIM the business.

[01:43:24] Paul: That's it?

[01:43:25] Forties Therapist: You betcha!

[01:43:28] Paul: Put out your cigar. This was filled out by "Worry, Repeat," and, uh, he writes about his, uh, gives us a snapshot of his anxiety. And he writes, "Things are okay. But what if I lose my job, and can't pay the bills, and lose the house, and screw up my daughter's life, and everyone thinks I'm a loser, and I have to get rid of all my stuff, and, and, and, and, and …" (Chuckles) Thank you for that. Oh my god, the catastrophizing dominoes. Yeah … my brain does that, too. In fact, I, uh, after I read your, your, uh, survey, I thought, like … almost every moment in my day, there's a flash of a part of brain that goes to the worst-case scenario of something, even if it’s just an image. But sometimes it’ll go the full dominoes route, um, where this leads to that, to that, leads to that, and it gets worse, and worse, and worse. And, um … (chuckles) so I went on, online to a web site that, uh, generates random words. And I just observed my brain as it … flashed on whatever negative thing it leaps to on its own. Like, the word basket came up, and my first, first thig that flashed to my head was, "The reeds are sharp, and my finger cuts, and I get that flesh-eating virus." (Chuckles) That would be a fun thing to do on the podcast, is just do the random word generator and, and just go into, uh, worst-case scenario moment.

[01:45:24] This is from the, um babysitter survey, and this was filled out by "Marilyn." And she, uh, writes, "When I was six years old, I was molested by my very Mormon, female, 30-something-year-old babysitter. She would crawl into my bed in the early hours of the morning after my parents went to work, and fondle my feet and touch me. Afterwards, as I laid in bed, I would listen to her sob in the shower." Boy, that is such an image. That is such an image. You know, when I read this, I thought, if that doesn't speak to the power of compulsive behavior, that … the war that this person, this abuser clearly felt, but couldn’t stop herself, or chose not to stop herself, from doing what she did. "For many years, I kept it to myself. I tried to tell my mother twice, but could not. I told an ex-friend, and it remains one of my biggest regrets that I shared that with her. This is something I wish could tell people, but only the right people. I wish I knew who those people were." You are not alone in that, because I have shared things with people that, in hindsight, um, were not ideal. But I think for a lot of us, we have to share things sometimes with people who don't react ideally to find people … who will react in a way that is compassionate. And, I don’t know how to describe it exactly, because a lot of times it's just a feeling you get with somebody. I guess all of this is to say, is the more we share and open up, the better we get at intuitively knowing who is safe to share things with. But, ultimately, you're speaking your truth, and fuck anybody that judges you for it. I don't give a fuck about anybody that judges me for my truth. (Pause) Remembering these things, what feelings come up? "I am angry, while also being full of regret, sadness, and shame. Regret, because the reason why she quit being my babysitter was because she married a man with a daughter my age. I think of that girl, and hope she never had to go through what I did. Anger, because the statue of limitations is up, and that nobody in my family can remember her last name. Otherwise, I feel like I would find her and confront her. Sadness and shame, because this happened. This is my life, and I live with that. I cry as I type this." Do you feel any damage was done? "I feel like there's a part of me I'll never get back. For years, in my teens after I came to terms with what happened, I would mutilate the skin on the bottoms of my feet to the point where it would hurt to walk and my feet would bleed. My sole is hurt. I cannot stand anyone else touching my feet or even seeing them, so I wear socks 24/7." If you're a parent, has your experience influenced how you view our children being babysat? "I will NEVER allow my children to be babysat by anyone other than close family. I will be a stay-at-home mom because I cannot bear the thought of something like this happening to my child." Thank you … Wow, that is so heavy … That is so heavy. Sending you some love, man. That, that … God, the image of … you hearing her cry in the shower, and then the things that you were doing to your, to your feet try to cope with your pain. And, um … hmm … Thank you for sharing that. And the image of you crying as you type that out … Man, the … the … depths you guys go to in sharing your inner lives through the surveys can't be overestimated in how important they are, not only to the podcast, but to me personally.

[01:50:54] This is a happy moment filled out by "Kenzie Samantha (sp.)," and, uh, she writes, "I work up to the soft rain. It was 9 A.M, but I couldn’t tell, because the sky was dark. I was home alone. I put on my favorite slippers and went downstairs to make some tea. My dog greeted me with a thumping tail and his favorite yellow toy. I drank my tea, finished a book, and petted my dog. In that moment, the world was a perfect place, and my mind was at peace." Thank you for that, Kenzie. That … You know, that—honestly, those are, that's the goal for me every day, is to, is to find joy in the little things. Cuz the little things are, are like … first of all, the bulk of what life is. And … if I can find joy in those little things … it helps to navigate the bigger things. I dunno how to explain that exactly, cuz half of my brain is missing right now, cuz I think I took the wrong dose … Sometimes, I just like silence. (Pause) I don’t; think we have enough silence in our, in our lives. Some of the calmest I've ever felt was when I was in nature above the tree line, in the mountains in the winter. And there was no wind, and there was … no animal life cuz it was too high up. And it was … it was almost like life-changing; it was such a … I, I like felt my body shifted. And, um, I guess that's what I'm trying to say, is the, the, the small moments are an opportunity to wind down, and … Cuz I can't appreciate small moments if I'm wound up: if I'm anxious, if I'm future-tripping, if I'm stuck in the past. But when I can appreciate those little moments, I can get calm enough, so, so I guess that's why meditation … works. It helps you wind down. And then it helps you with, enjoy the smaller shit. I want that on my gravestone (chuckles). That's a long fucking phrase to put on that headstone—and why am I swearing all of a sudden. You know why? Cuz I'm a little insecure at the way I'm ending this show. Thinking it could have been better. But, then again … You're gonna judge me for that? Fuck you! Fuck you. Listening to my podcast and judging me. (Chuckles) I have nowhere to go with this. Let me see if Forties Therapist wants to wrap this show up. (Pauses) You wanna, you wanna chime in anything, buddy?

[01:54:35] Forties Therapist: Oh, I'm so steaming, I could punch you in the bread basket.

[01:54:40] Paul: (Chuckles) I don’t know what (chuckles) … let me bid you guys adieu. If you're out there and you're stuck, help is out there. People who understand you are out there; it's just a matter of finding them. And, sometimes it's frustrating as fuck, and it's rarely on our schedule. But, if you keep seeking, you will eventually find people who understand you, who love you unconditionally, and who will help you and who you will feel comfortable being your authentic self around. And I know that, cuz I've experienced it, and I've seen hundreds and hundreds of my friends experience it. And I know you're having a hard time believing I have friends; put that aside. And you know what? Go fuck yourself … not believing that I have friend. This is … I'm going down a rabbit hole. Just remember you're not alone, and thanks for listening.

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