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Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



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Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 6:04 am Post subject: Examples of later bastard sword hilts



I'm looking for later period bastard sword, featuring more intricate hilts.



As a reference, a typcial example of what I'm looking for would be the german bastard sword from arms and armor.



I'll provide the first one, held at the V&A (blackberry pictures unfortunately)



Don't hesitate to provide pictures!



Cheers,



J



Hand and a half sword, ca. 1510

(check this link for more information (very detailled including measurments:







Hi Guys,I'm looking for later period bastard sword, featuring more intricate hilts.As a reference, a typcial example of what I'm looking for would be the german bastard sword from arms and armor.I'll provide the first one, held at the V&A (blackberry pictures unfortunately)Don't hesitate to provide pictures!Cheers,Hand and a half sword, ca. 1510(check this link for more information (very detailled including measurments: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O97450/hand-and-a/



Last edited by Julien M on Thu 13 May, 2010 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



Spotlight topics: 1

Posts: 1,083



Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 6:31 am Post subject:



A-hand-and-a-half-sword



South German around 1520

Slender, double-edged blade of diamond section. There are two small, jagged smith's marks on one side of the blade forte. Straight quillons with grooved spiral decoration and grooved finials. Grooved pear-shaped pommel with engraved decorative lines. Grip is covered with leather over cord wrapping. Length: 118.5 cm.









A-hand-and-a-half-sword

South German around 1520

Double-edged blade with half-length fullers on both sides and a brass inlaid orb and stylized wolf mark at the forte. Spiral cut, forged iron quillons and pommel. Wooden grip, wrapped with cord and leather (somewhat cracked). Length: 120 cm.

Well preserved knightly weapon.









A German hand-and-a-half sword,

circa 1530/40. The thrusting blade of diamond section with small fullers on both sides, the finger and loop guards on the hilt with finely chiselled decorative bands, the conically flaring round quillons struck with wave ornaments, the stepped grip covered with leather and the onion-shaped pommel with lightly twisted grooves. Length 131 cm.





3 swords, from hermann historica past auctions, all german, all first half og the 16th century.A-hand-and-a-half-swordSouth German around 1520Slender, double-edged blade of diamond section. There are two small, jagged smith's marks on one side of the blade forte. Straight quillons with grooved spiral decoration and grooved finials. Grooved pear-shaped pommel with engraved decorative lines. Grip is covered with leather over cord wrapping. Length: 118.5 cm.A-hand-and-a-half-swordSouth German around 1520Double-edged blade with half-length fullers on both sides and a brass inlaid orb and stylized wolf mark at the forte. Spiral cut, forged iron quillons and pommel. Wooden grip, wrapped with cord and leather (somewhat cracked). Length: 120 cm.Well preserved knightly weapon.A German hand-and-a-half sword,circa 1530/40. The thrusting blade of diamond section with small fullers on both sides, the finger and loop guards on the hilt with finely chiselled decorative bands, the conically flaring round quillons struck with wave ornaments, the stepped grip covered with leather and the onion-shaped pommel with lightly twisted grooves. Length 131 cm.

Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



Spotlight topics: 1

Posts: 1,083



Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 11:43 am Post subject: Nathan Robinson wrote: Random photos shown below. No time to dig up more info.



Great pictures thanks! That's no problem Nathan, that's exactly what I was expecting, a serious pic dropping



Again prospecting for another project... This type of hilt and twisted pattern below has my preference by far, but I would need different views/angles in order to even think of giving it a go (wax carving/casting). Given that I can check the V&A one as much as I like, this is still my first choice...unless you guys have a full view of one of these twisted ones (either straight or curved quillons)...I'm pretty sure I did download some close ups of such a sword from a past hermann historica auction...but I can't manage to get a hold of them.



Cheers,



J



Great pictures thanks! That's no problem Nathan, that's exactly what I was expecting, a serious pic droppingAgain prospecting for another project... This type of hilt and twisted pattern below has my preference by far, but I would need different views/angles in order to even think of giving it a go (wax carving/casting). Given that I can check the V&A one as much as I like, this is still my first choice...unless you guys have a full view of one of these twisted ones (either straight or curved quillons)...I'm pretty sure I did download some close ups of such a sword from a past hermann historica auction...but I can't manage to get a hold of them.Cheers,

Nathan Robinson









myArmoury Admin

Joined: 07 Jul 2003

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Location: San FranciscoJoined: 07 Jul 2003 Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject:







I'd really enjoy seeing this recreated.



The following info is Copyright: © The Victoria and Albert Museum. All Rights Reserved.





Physical description



The hilt of cut and blackened steel, with a pommel decorated with spiral chiselling, and a two stage grip with serpentine guards extending forward into simple guard loops in front of the quillons. The quillons are chiseled and curved with flared ends. The blade is long with a single central fuller extending approx two thirds of the way down the blade, with a stamped mark near the hilt.

Place of Origin



Germany (made)

Date



ca. 1510 (made)

Artist/maker



Unknown

Materials and Techniques



Forged and partially blackened steel, chiselled

Marks and inscriptions



Maker's mark: a cross on a star Unidentified

Dimensions



Height: 119.7 cm (blade)

Width: 22.9 cm

Depth: 10.9 cm

Weight: 1.1 kg



Measured for the Medieval and Renaissance Galleries

Object history note



This sword was acquired by the Museum from the Major Victor Farquharson Bequest in 1927. Its provenance before this is unknown.

Historical context note



The art of combat was an essential part of a nobleman's education. Sigund Ringeck, a 15th-century fencing master, claimed knights should "skilfully wield spear, sword, and dagger in a manly way." This sword, gripped in both hands, was a potent weapon against armour before the development of firearms.



To fully appreciate the swords meaning to the sixteenth-century gentleman, it is important to understand its double role as both offensive weapon and costume accessory. As costume jewellery the decorated sword hilt flowered fully between 1580 and 1620. However, the seeds were sown long before. This hand-and-a-half sword for use in foot combat carries an early sign of this development. Held either in one or both hands, and also known as a bastard sword as its grip was not as long as a traditional two-handed sword, it can be dated to around 1500 based on the decoration of its hilt. The rounded ends of the crossbars (quillons) are quite flimsy while the finely chiselled pommel recalls the swirling lobes that decorated contemporary flagons and candlestick stems. This appearance demonstrates a move away from the brutal simplicity of the medieval sword.



No part of a medieval sword was made without both attack and defence in mind. Modern fencing encourages us to see the blade, in fact only the tip of the blade, as the sole attacking element of a sword and the hilt more as control room and protector. Tight rules prevent the sword hand ever straying from the hilt and the spare hand from getting involved at all. The fifteenth-century Fightbook published by the German fencing master, Hans Talhoffer, illustrates a more pragmatic approach as two fashionably dressed men settle their differences using undecorated swords with thick diamond-section blades. The blades could be gripped as well as the hilt. The rounded pommels at the end of the grip and at the ends to the quillons not only balanced the swing of the sword but acted as hammerheads to deliver the murder-stroke. As soon as these elements ceased to be functional they took on the role of adornment. This sword hints at the more decorative hilts produced later in the century.

Descriptive line



Steel, the blade forged and the hilt cut, chiselled and partly blackened, Germany, ca. 1510

Bibliographic References (Citation, Note/Abstract, NAL no)



Victor Harris et al, Swords and Hilt Weapons (Barnes and Noble Books, New York, 1993), Ch. 4

General history and similar examples

North, Anthony, An Introduction to European Swords, Victoria and Albert Museum, HMSO, London, 1982, ISBN 0 11 290378 9

General history and similar examples

Blair, Claude, European and America Arms c.1100-1850, B.T. Batsford Ltd., London, 196

Genreal history and similar examples

Stone, George Cameron, A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times, Jack Brussel, New York, 1934, pp. 182-183

For general history and comparison

Materials



Steel

Techniques



Colouring; Forging; Chiselling



Categories



Arms & Armour; Metalwork; Tools & Equipment; Accessories

Collection code



MET Frankly, I'm in love with the first one in this topic:I'd really enjoy seeing this recreated.The following info is Copyright: © The Victoria and Albert Museum. All Rights Reserved.The hilt of cut and blackened steel, with a pommel decorated with spiral chiselling, and a two stage grip with serpentine guards extending forward into simple guard loops in front of the quillons. The quillons are chiseled and curved with flared ends. The blade is long with a single central fuller extending approx two thirds of the way down the blade, with a stamped mark near the hilt.Place of OriginGermany (made)Dateca. 1510 (made)Artist/makerUnknownMaterials and TechniquesForged and partially blackened steel, chiselledMarks and inscriptionsMaker's mark: a cross on a star UnidentifiedDimensionsHeight: 119.7 cm (blade)Width: 22.9 cmDepth: 10.9 cmWeight: 1.1 kgMeasured for the Medieval and Renaissance GalleriesObject history noteThis sword was acquired by the Museum from the Major Victor Farquharson Bequest in 1927. Its provenance before this is unknown.Historical context noteThe art of combat was an essential part of a nobleman's education. Sigund Ringeck, a 15th-century fencing master, claimed knights should "skilfully wield spear, sword, and dagger in a manly way." This sword, gripped in both hands, was a potent weapon against armour before the development of firearms.To fully appreciate the swords meaning to the sixteenth-century gentleman, it is important to understand its double role as both offensive weapon and costume accessory. As costume jewellery the decorated sword hilt flowered fully between 1580 and 1620. However, the seeds were sown long before. This hand-and-a-half sword for use in foot combat carries an early sign of this development. Held either in one or both hands, and also known as a bastard sword as its grip was not as long as a traditional two-handed sword, it can be dated to around 1500 based on the decoration of its hilt. The rounded ends of the crossbars (quillons) are quite flimsy while the finely chiselled pommel recalls the swirling lobes that decorated contemporary flagons and candlestick stems. This appearance demonstrates a move away from the brutal simplicity of the medieval sword.No part of a medieval sword was made without both attack and defence in mind. Modern fencing encourages us to see the blade, in fact only the tip of the blade, as the sole attacking element of a sword and the hilt more as control room and protector. Tight rules prevent the sword hand ever straying from the hilt and the spare hand from getting involved at all. The fifteenth-century Fightbook published by the German fencing master, Hans Talhoffer, illustrates a more pragmatic approach as two fashionably dressed men settle their differences using undecorated swords with thick diamond-section blades. The blades could be gripped as well as the hilt. The rounded pommels at the end of the grip and at the ends to the quillons not only balanced the swing of the sword but acted as hammerheads to deliver the murder-stroke. As soon as these elements ceased to be functional they took on the role of adornment. This sword hints at the more decorative hilts produced later in the century.Descriptive lineSteel, the blade forged and the hilt cut, chiselled and partly blackened, Germany, ca. 1510Bibliographic References (Citation, Note/Abstract, NAL no)Victor Harris et al, Swords and Hilt Weapons (Barnes and Noble Books, New York, 1993), Ch. 4General history and similar examplesNorth, Anthony, An Introduction to European Swords, Victoria and Albert Museum, HMSO, London, 1982, ISBN 0 11 290378 9General history and similar examplesBlair, Claude, European and America Arms c.1100-1850, B.T. Batsford Ltd., London, 196Genreal history and similar examplesStone, George Cameron, A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times, Jack Brussel, New York, 1934, pp. 182-183For general history and comparisonMaterialsSteelTechniquesColouring; Forging; ChisellingCategoriesArms & Armour; Metalwork; Tools & Equipment; AccessoriesCollection codeMET .:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.

Kjell Magnusson









Joined: 10 Jun 2004



Posts: 123



Location: SwedenJoined: 10 Jun 2004 Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: Julien M wrote:

This type of hilt and twisted pattern below has my preference by far, but I would need different views/angles in order to even think of giving it a go (wax carving/casting).



Here's a collage of pictures of what I believe is the same sword. Doesn't show all that much more, but it might help a bit at least. I'm also attaching a data sheet for it, also from the



The other sword I'm attaching pictures of is in the Royal Armoury in Sweden. It belonged to Gustav I Vasa, and according to the museum it's from Southern Germany, ca 1550. Here's a collage of pictures of what I believe is the same sword. Doesn't show all that much more, but it might help a bit at least. I'm also attaching a data sheet for it, also from the Zornhau group.The other sword I'm attaching pictures of is in the Royal Armoury in Sweden. It belonged to Gustav I Vasa, and according to the museum it's from Southern Germany, ca 1550.



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Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



Spotlight topics: 1

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Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Fri 14 May, 2010 1:46 am Post subject: Kjell Magnusson wrote: Here's a collage of pictures of what I believe is the same sword. Doesn't show all that much more, but it might help a bit at least. I'm also attaching a data sheet for it, also from the Zornhau group.



This is awesome Kjell, thanks for sharing this datasheet, it might come very handy at some point as I won't forget this design anytime soon. I'm puzzled by the other side of the cross guard. The way one branch of the twisted pattern is going loose above the ecusson at the center...totally unexpected. I could improvise from these pictures I'm sure, but I'd rather go for the V&A that I will be able to check in full detail (save for measurments (they do indicate the overall proportion on the website though, as well as overall hilt width and quillons lenght). Also I'm not sure of the quillons curve viewed from above...though I could use a pict of the A&A german bastard as a reference for this...



Concerning the V&A sword design...I'm thinking of using an Hanwei tinker bastard fuellered blade...I've already tried the design on photoshop and it fits...save for the fact that the tinker blade is a type XVIII and this is evidently a type XVII (the boring type according to ). The sample of sword above tends to indicate that this type of hilt did accomodate many blade designs though....so my feeling is that I can pick pretty much what I want (type XV, XVIII, even XIII, or later types).



Another solution of course would be to have such a blade made custom...



Cheers,



J This is awesome Kjell, thanks for sharing this datasheet, it might come very handy at some point as I won't forget this design anytime soon. I'm puzzled by the other side of the cross guard. The way one branch of the twisted pattern is going loose above the ecusson at the center...totally unexpected. I could improvise from these pictures I'm sure, but I'd rather go for the V&A that I will be able to check in full detail (save for measurments (they do indicate the overall proportion on the website though, as well as overall hilt width and quillons lenght). Also I'm not sure of the quillons curve viewed from above...though I could use a pict of the A&A german bastard as a reference for this...Concerning the V&A sword design...I'm thinking of using an Hanwei tinker bastard fuellered blade...I've already tried the design on photoshop and it fits...save for the fact that the tinker blade is a type XVIII and this is evidently a type XVII (the boring type according to Oakeshott ). The sample of sword above tends to indicate that this type of hilt did accomodate many blade designs though....so my feeling is that I can pick pretty much what I want (type XV, XVIII, even XIII, or later types).Another solution of course would be to have such a blade made custom...Cheers,



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Dave Leppo









Joined: 24 Feb 2010



Posts: 38



Location: Dover, PA, USAJoined: 24 Feb 2010 Posted: Mon 14 Jun, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: dimensions? Im attempting a hilt similar to the one presented by Julien M post 13 May, 6:31AM sword #3. Does anyone have any actual dimensions such as thickness of ring guards, thickness of cross, or diameter / length respectively; diameter of pommel? I'm trying to achieve a twisted cross in pattern-welded instead of chiseled twists, with a similar pommel. I already have some material fabricated or selected, just looking for verification.



thanks -Dave

Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



Spotlight topics: 1

Posts: 1,083



Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 3:53 am Post subject: Hi Guys,



These all look great, but I am actually trying to come up with an historical design for an hollow ground longsword, and I have not yet or can't recall such later hilts on hollow ground bastard swords (to me these later sword are reminiscent of the type XIII great sword of war, so lenticular profile blades, fullered, or as we've seen here on a couple of swords on this thread, thick estoc)



If you happen to have an example of a hollow grond blade mounted with a later hilt such as the ones above (let's say in the german fashion) please post it here!



Many thanks,



Julien

Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



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Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 4:00 am Post subject:



More would be nice!



Cheers,



Julien















Actually looking in my own pictures from the Wallace colelctionI just found one!More would be nice!Cheers,Julien

Luke Zechman









Joined: 18 Jan 2009



Posts: 278



Location: Lock Haven PennsylvaniaJoined: 18 Jan 2009 Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: This one is found at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.



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Julien M









Joined: 14 Sep 2005



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Location: Austin TXJoined: 14 Sep 2005 Posted: Wed 11 Aug, 2010 6:06 am Post subject:



Another likely candidate: late german hilt type, combined with a type XVIII hollow ground blade.



Cheers,



J









Hi Guys,Another likely candidate: late german hilt type, combined with a type XVIII hollow ground blade.Cheers,