Matchup-specific

Marth

Ledgeteching

Window for tech: 20 frames before hit



Click on it for a link to a slowed-down version.



In the animation above, you can see a wallhugging up-B. Doing it this way has the advantage of needing only a single frame SDI. If Marth had started his up-B a bit more left so he’d just barely grabbed the ledge, the edgeguarding Marth would have had to go a bit forward to hit him. To do so in time, he’d need pretty fast reactions, so it might be a good idea to recover from far out against opponents who only rely on reacting to your timing and not your spacing as that way you don’t even need to tech because his fsmash whiffs. Just keep in mind that if he still hits you, you have to do triple SDI to be able to tech, which is very hard to say the least.



Sheik

Grab options against Sheik

Upthrow takes 40 frames against her.

0-8% – 2-3 frame window for Sheik’s jump escape timing (cannot be buffered)

12% – 2 frame window

13% – 1 frame window

17% – 2 frame window

21% – 1 frame window

22-30% – utilt is guaranteed, you need to turn if she DIs behind you

35-41% – utilt is guaranteed on neutral DI only, otherwise it will whiff.

32-45% – If she DIs behind you, tipper fsmash will miss just barely (she needs to hit a one frame window for the jump to avoid it). If she DIs behind you or in front of you, short hop fair will tipper her if done frame perfect (dash 1 frame, jump for one frame, then input the fair).

29-57% – On neutral DI, short hop uair will always hit her.

50-70% – On neutral DI, full jump uair will always connect, you need to delay the uair by one frame every 6% or so.

70-86% – On neutral DI, full jump → second jump uair will always connect.



From 90% onwards, it seems that there are no guaranteed followups. All percentages are given as before hit, although that’s not like Melee calculates it.



Edgehogging Sheik’s up-B ledgestall (“shino stall”)

1. Ledgestall frame data

1.1. Ledgegrab and drop

Sheik’s ledgegrab animation takes 8 frames until she can drop. She needs to be in the falling animation for one frame, so in total, it takes 9 frames until she can start her up-B.

1.2. Up-B frame data

1-17 up-B startup without innate intangibility

18-34 up-B startup with innate intangibility

35 traveling direction is determined on this frame (between 34 and 35)

36-42 hitbox is active and full-size, Sheik starts moving (skipped as soon as Sheik collides with environment, thus her hitbox won’t come out at all if she is collides with a wall on frame 36)

43-46 hitbox is active but shrinked to about half the size

47-48 hitbox is active, shrinked to even less (about a quarter of the initial size)

50 hitbox is removed

56 Sheik stops moving, intangibility ends



In a typical shino stall (drop from the ledge, up-B immediately, hold down), Sheik will grab the ledge after frame 43 of her up-B. By fastfalling for exactly 4 frames after dropping, she can regrab the ledge as soon as after frame 36 of her up-B.

Thus, I will assume Sheik does a perfect shino stall with iterations of 9+4+36=49 frames.

1.3. Animations

Approximate Realtime (83% playing speed):

2. Edgehogging frame data

2.1. Pivot edgehog

If Marth is standing at the position you can see in the animations above, pivot edgehog will take 22 frames until he grabs the ledge.

Pivot edgehog is really hard to do consistently because it requires frame precision beyond frame precision.

The frame window during which you can start your dash and successfully edgehog Sheik is 24 frames.

Earliest edgehog : (83% realtime speed due to .gif limitations) If Marth is standing at the position you can see in the animations above, pivot edgehog will take 22 frames until he grabs the ledge.Pivot edgehog is really hard to do consistently because it requires frame precision beyond frame precision. Further reading The frame window during which you can start your dash and successfully edgehog Sheik is 24 frames.

Latest edgehog : (83%)



2.2. Wavedash edgehog

The frame window for wavedash is pretty much the same, the main difference is that you can edgehog from farther away and Sheik has more time to react.



Jigglypuff

Converting grabs

Puff is annoying. Marth can’t keep her out as well as other characters because of her horizontal air speed, and she usually kills Marth below 100% while Marth has trouble killing her before 200%. If only he had reliable setups for his strong attacks (namely tipper fsmash and dsmash) … but wait! He does have them!



What exactly Marth can do out of a grab heavily depends on damage and DI. Because a lot of things need to be considered, I’m splitting this section into percent ranges.



0%-20%



This can only work if Puff has to guess what throw you do. If she can react to the type of throw you do, the following stuff won’t work. Thus, it’s vital to find out whether she can or not. Click on show if you want to see my thoughts and illustrations:

Spoiler: vertically large picture Both throws take 8 frames until the enemy is sent flying. The direction Puff holds on frame 7 determines the DI the most (switching to another angle afterwards doesn’t make much difference), so Puff has 7 frames to make her DI decision. Now if you skip down a bit to General/Ledge/Reacting, you see that even the best of players won’t have visual reaction times below 7 frames. Auditory might be even 6 frames, but luckily fthrow and dthrow play the same sound effect.

Here are all relevant frames compared: Chaingrab time! Marth has no true chaingrab on Puff, but he can play the guessing game and alternate between fthrow and dthrow and later end the chaingrab with (pivot) fsmash or dwddsmash.This can only work if Puff has to guess what throw you do. If she can react to the type of throw you do, the following stuff won’t work. Thus, it’s vital to find out whether she can or not. Click on show if you want to see my thoughts and illustrations:

Spoiler: vertically large picture

As you can see, the differences are very slim and very subte. I don’t believe any player could react after the first frame accordingly, but you’re all more than welcome to test this for yourself.

To escape a regrab after fthrow, Puff needs to DI with a direction from 107°¹ to 180°. To escape a regrab after dthrow, she needs to hold an angle from 17°-48° or 197°-253°. This means that there is no angle she can hold to escape both fthrow-regrab and dthrow-regrab! Here is an illustration, based on a photo of my control stick and ajpanton’s great directions.png:

At 30%, they are exactly the same. From about 35% on (maybe a few % less), Jigglypuff can escape with 73° DI.



50%-90%

This is the range where you can kill Jigglypuff from a throw, exact % value depending on the stage. 90% is where you can expect her to die from tippered smashes even on DL64 with good DI, so it’s good to know your options at that point. Keep this in mind: If you land a grab on her at 50%-90%, your chances of killing her are at least 33%—if you have enough knowledge and application skills. I hope this makes you realize the importance of this section—without these techniques, you will likely take twice as long to take her stock.

At 90%, these are the DI-dependent follow-up options:



Colored areas indicate that after DIing in that direction, Puff will not be able to escape the corresponding follow-up.

Obviously 7 and 8 only kill near the ledge. At 90%, Puff can survive dair depending on stage and DI, but she won’t make it back to the ledge without lots of Rising Pounds, so it should be feasible to dair her again.



At higher %, most/all areas shrink, but not too fast.



If what this image is supposed to illustrate is not clear: While Marth has no truly guaranteed follow-up on Puff from his grab, he has numerous ways to have at least 50% killing chance, for example by mixing up Fthrow WD Fsmash and Fthrow JC Upsmash.



The two innermost octagons (purple and dark blue) show on what angles of Puff’s DI you can follow up with a dash to pivot tipper fsmash (for more information on this, check out

3 shows wavedash tipper fsmash. You need to start the wavedash as soon as possible and airdodge with 317°. The only exception are angles from 287°-343°, on these you need to dash 1 or two frames before you jump because Puff flies away further from you than on all other angles.

Then comes the strongest option: Dash wavedash tipper dsmash. Now the execution on that is tricky as you need to be really precise. First, you need to dash for a few frames. If you dash for 1-3 frames and jump afterwards, you need to airdodge (and thus wavedash) with 330° (SSE). If you dash for 4 to about 7 frames, you need to airdodge with 315° (SE).



Whether you go for option 1 or 2 as your standard follow-up is entirely up to you. Option 2 has more coverage, but on those additional covered angles, the input is slightly different so it’s not a true advantage. Dsmash is only recommended if you read their down-away DI.

In any case, all angles they can escape wavedash fsmash entirely, you can JC upsmash them. You have to bet on one of three chances: 1. that she will choose an angle between 130° and 160°, 2. that she will go for 287°-343° and 3. that she will go for a cardinal direction or up-away / down-towards. All of your punishes are not without risk—if you guess wrong, she can punish with rest in time. All in all, 2 out of 3 possible outcomes will result in her having the opportunity to kill her, while the other one will result in her death. So, playing this game might become a bad idea as soon as Puff players know their options well. Still, if you land an unexpected grab and fthrow immediately, you have good chances that they instinctively DI away or in—both you can cover with wd or pivot fsmash.

Here is a video that shows how these options work frame-by-frame:



http://www.mediafire.com/?dku8arsh63lx9b0

The video is in 30fps—half speed.



Keep in mind this will not always work: If Jigglypuff DIs so she lands on a platform, you can’t get to her in time. In this case, you can techchase her with pivot fsmash instead. Also, if you throw her away from the stage near the ledge, you obviously won’t be able to dash or wavedash far enough to reach her.



Fox Again, this chart assumes that Jigglypuff is on the right side of Marth when she is grabbed.Colored areas indicate that after DIing in that direction, Puff will not be able to escape the corresponding follow-up.Obviously 7 and 8 only kill near the ledge. At 90%, Puff can survive dair depending on stage and DI, but she won’t make it back to the ledge without lots of Rising Pounds, so it should be feasible to dair her again.At higher %, most/all areas shrink, but not too fast.If what this image is supposed to illustrate is not clear: While Marth has no truly guaranteed follow-up on Puff from his grab, he has numerous ways to have at least 50% killing chance, for example by mixing up Fthrow WD Fsmash and Fthrow JC Upsmash.The two innermost octagons (purple and dark blue) show on what angles of Puff’s DI you can follow up with a dash to pivot tipper fsmash (for more information on this, check out ARC’s pivoting tutorial ). You need to dash for 15 frames.3 shows wavedash tipper fsmash. You need to start the wavedash as soon as possible and airdodge with 317°. The only exception are angles from 287°-343°, on these you need to dash 1 or two frames before you jump because Puff flies away further from you than on all other angles.Then comes the strongest option: Dash wavedash tipper dsmash. Now the execution on that is tricky as you need to be really precise. First, you need to dash for a few frames. If you dash for 1-3 frames and jump afterwards, you need to airdodge (and thus wavedash) with 330° (SSE). If you dash for 4 to about 7 frames, you need to airdodge with 315° (SE).Whether you go for option 1 or 2 as your standard follow-up is entirely up to you. Option 2 has more coverage, but on those additional covered angles, the input is slightly different so it’s not a true advantage. Dsmash is only recommended if you read their down-away DI.In any case, all angles they can escape wavedash fsmash entirely, you can JC upsmash them. You have to bet on one of three chances: 1. that she will choose an angle between 130° and 160°, 2. that she will go for 287°-343° and 3. that she will go for a cardinal direction or up-away / down-towards. All of your punishes are not without risk—if you guess wrong, she can punish with rest in time. All in all, 2 out of 3 possible outcomes will result in her having the opportunity to kill her, while the other one will result in her death. So, playing this game might become a bad idea as soon as Puff players know their options well. Still, if you land an unexpected grab and fthrow immediately, you have good chances that they instinctively DI away or in—both you can cover with wd or pivot fsmash.Here is a video that shows how these options work frame-by-frame:The video is in 30fps—half speed.Keep in mind this will not always work: If Jigglypuff DIs so she lands on a platform, you can’t get to her in time. In this case, you can techchase her with pivot fsmash instead. Also, if you throw her away from the stage near the ledge, you obviously won’t be able to dash or wavedash far enough to reach her.

Chaingrabbing specifics

Here is a table of the upthrow chaingrab, annotations for neutral / no DI:

_________________________

|Frames of |.... Damage | # “within” = this many frames may pass before the

|..Hitstun |. after hit | # necessary action is triggered

|__________|____________|

|...... 34 |...... 4 ...| # 3-frame window for the regrab

|...... 35 |...... 7.64 | # 4-frame window for the regrab

|...... 35 |...... 10.96| # Marth needs to delay his grab by 1-3 frames

|...... 36 |...... 14 ..| # Marth needs to delay his grab by 1-4 frames

|...... 37 |...... 16.8 | # Marth needs to delay his grab by 3-5 frames

|...... 37 |...... 19.4 | # Marth needs to delay his grab by 3-5 frames

|...... 38 |...... 21.84| # Marth needs to delay his grab by 5-6 frames

|...... 38 |...... 24.16| # Marth needs to pivot grab within 4-6 frames

|...... 39 |...... 26.4 | # Marth needs to pivot grab within 4-7 frames

|...... 39 |...... 28.6 | # Marth needs to pivot grab within 4-7 frames

|...... 40 |...... 30.8 | # Marth needs to pivot grab within 5-8 frames

|...... 40 |...... 33 ..| # Marth needs to pivot grab within 5-8 frames

|...... 41 |...... 35.2 | # Marth needs to delay his grab by 8-9 frames

|...... 41 |...... 37.4 | # Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 6-9 frames

|...... 42 |...... 39.6 | # Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 9-10 frames

|...... 42 |...... 41.8 | # Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 9-10 frames

|...... 42 |...... 44 ..| # Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 9-10 frames

|...... 43 |...... 46.2 | # Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 10-11 frames

|...... 43 |...... 48.4 | # Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement

|...... 44 |...... 50.6 | # Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement

|...... 44 |...... 52.8 | # Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement

|...... 45 |...... 55 ..| # Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement

—————————————————————————

Pivot grab is possible from 4-22% as well, but I left it out because delaying the grab is way easier and just as reliable at the respective percentages.

Colors indicate technical execution difficulty, in case this wasn’t obvious.



Techchasing on platforms from below with upair

The timing for jump and upair are the same for all 4 of Fox’s options. The only difference is that you need to fastfall if he techs in place or doesn’t tech to hit him with the tipper hurtbox. This works on all characters, but on Pikachu and Pichu you need to be frame perfect as their tech has longer invincibility. It also works on most stages, but on Battlefield you need to hold left/right as soon as you see them tech-rolling in that direction because its platforms are the widest.



Ledgeguard vs. Illusion

Considering that there are thousands of different ways spacies can recover with side-B, I will only explain those where only a few of Marth’s options work in detail and treat the others in a more general way.

Every option is listed depending on the position Fox starts his illusion at, going from lowest to highest.

For Falco, everything starts 4 frames earlier.

1. Sweetspot to the ledge.

It takes Fox a total of 28 frames to reach the ledge from here; 26 if he shortens. If he shortens, he needs to use the second shortest length as the shortest one will make him miss the ledge.

Dtilt will whiff by far:





Edgehogging is also possible in time, but the frame window is really tight.

From the position Marth is standing, it takes 16 frames to do a pivot edgehog – just as much as the fair. Turn-wavedash is 18 frames, so if Fox shortens, he will grab it before you – assuming you are do it on reaction and have a <10 frames reaction time, which is asking pretty much.

If Fox ends up in this spot, it’s probably better to react to the position and not to the Illusion. Doing so should give you another 5 frames or so, which ensures that you grab the ledge in time. It’s important to make this decision very late so that Fox can’t react to it and decide to Illusion while he can still land on the stage.

If you time it that way, Fox has no options. He might opt for Firefox instead of Illusion, but covering that with b-air is really easy from the ledge.

2. Shorten sweetspot to the ledge from above. The only attack you can reliably hit him with in time is f-air. Dashing to the edge and fairing afterwards takes will take 16 frames until the hitbox is out where it can hit Fox. Thus, there are 10-12 leniency frames, depending on if – and when – Fox shortens. This isn’t true leniency, though – it’s the time during which you need to react. Thus, your reaction time needs to be below 167ms (10 frames) if you want to be able to hit Fox reliably (assuming frame perfection on dash, f-air and fastfall execution).Edgehogging is also possible in time, but the frame window is really tight.From the position Marth is standing, it takes 16 frames to do a pivot edgehog – just as much as the fair. Turn-wavedash is 18 frames, so if Fox shortens, he will grab it before you – assuming you are do it on reaction and have a <10 frames reaction time, which is asking pretty much.If Fox ends up in this spot, it’s probably better to react to the position and not to the Illusion. Doing so should give you another 5 frames or so, which ensures that you grab the ledge in time. It’s important to make this decision very late so that Fox can’t react to it and decide to Illusion while he can still land on the stage.If you time it that way, Fox has no options. He might opt for Firefox instead of Illusion, but covering that with b-air is really easy from the ledge.

The problem here is that Fox can still land on the stage and you can’t reach him where he starts up in time.

Many players choose to take guesses here. They fsmash or jab and hope that Fox will not shorten. But most Foxes will go for the shorten in the majority of cases, as hardly any Marth ever threatens the ledge in this situation.

It’s okay to guess. At the moment you need to start the dash / turn for the edgehog or the jab / ftilt, Fox already has committed to his shorten choice, unless his reaction time is below 5 frames for ftilt or 2 frames for jab, which is humanly impossible.

In other words, if you know the timing, you can play the guessing game with him and have up to 50% killing rate.



In case you don’t want to play the guessing game, you only have three options: double dtilt, jabs and Dancing Blade. Dtilt is most reliable on hit, but Dancing Blade is more reliable tohit. Jabs are the easiest to time, but also the easiest for Fox to counter.



Dtilt

The first dtilt will only catch him if he starts the Illusion not higher up than this:

The frame window for the first dtilt to hit him if he does not shorten is 13-15 of Fox’ Illusion.

To hit Fox if he shortened, you need to start the second slash during any of the IASA frames 19-21 if you chose frame 15 before. For every frame you did the first dtilt earlier, this frame window increases by one at the end, so if you dtilted on frame 13 of Fox’ Illusion, the window for the second dtilt is 12-23.



If Fox goes slightly higher:

dtilt will whiff if he does not shorten. Also, because your hurtboxes are so low during dtilt, Fox’ illusion will never hit you.

You do have more than enough time to run up to him and punish with whatever you want, but in my opinion, if there is a way to keep him offstage without a jump, it should be preferred.

Many probably think of jabs now, and indeed, for Illusions that start that high up, both jab 1 and 2 will hit full-length and shorten respectively. But the big problem with this option is that jab 1’s hitstun is so short that Fox can Illusion to the ledge after he got hit by it. This will transition to situation 1.

Dancing Blade also has a similar problem: if he doesn’t shorten and DIs the first slash away, the second slash will whiff and he can also Illusion to the ledge. Thus, it’s comparable to jabs, but has the advantage of an additional obstacle for the Fox player – for jabs, his DI doesn’t matter, but if he doesn’t DI or DIs in on the DB1, you can hit him with DB2



The frame window for the second slash to hit Fox if he does shorten is 7-10 of the first hit if you did the first slash on frame 16. It increases to 7-11 if you did the first slash on frame 15 and to 7-12 if you did it on frame 14.



It is possible for Fox to SDI the first hit in and land on the stage before the second hit comes out. Normal DI + ASDI, however, is not enough. The frame window for the first slash to hit him if he does not shorten is 14-16 of Fox’ Illusion.The frame window for the second slash to hit Fox if he does shorten is 7-10 of the first hit if you did the first slash on frame 16. It increases to 7-11 if you did the first slash on frame 15 and to 7-12 if you did it on frame 14.It is possible for Fox to SDI the first hit in and land on the stage before the second hit comes out. Normal DI + ASDI, however, is not enough.



Both jabs and DB have the problem that even after the second hit, Fox can still Illusion to the ledge, and Marth is still in lag so he doesn’t have all the options of situation 1 available to him.

Thus, dtilt is the superior option, even though Fox can force his way onto the stage.



I feel these are the most important positions, if there are more you’d like to have analyzed, just post a screenshot of the illusion startup.

Falco Both jabs and DB have the problem that even after the second hit, Fox can still Illusion to the ledge, and Marth is still in lag so he doesn’t have all the options of situation 1 available to him.Thus, dtilt is the superior option, even though Fox can force his way onto the stage.

Powershielding lasers

This picture shows all possible shl heights:



Standing lasers have the same height as the third lowest SHLs (those that go through crouching Marth’s neck)



Dealing with ledgehop double lasers

Even if Falco has perfect execution, you can shieldgrab him between his first and second laser. If you manage to grab him very close to the edge and on the exact frame (7 frames before his laser comes out), your grab will be canceled by the laser and Falco falls off the stage without touching the ground. He regains his second jump from the grab, but he takes a lot of hitstun and needs to use his Up-B to recover, so he should be dead if you grab the ledge in time. Here is a video of it:



Captain Falcon

Marth uthrow followups on Captain Falcon

╔══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╗╔═════════════╤═════════════╤═════════════╤╗ You can crouch under all except the three lowest. Those you can’t crouch under you only have a one frame window, for the higher ones, crouching below grants you an 8 frame window.Standing lasers have the same height as the third lowest SHLs (those that go through crouching Marth’s neck)Even if Falco has perfect execution, you can shieldgrab him between his first and second laser. If you manage to grab him very close to the edge and on the exact frame (7 frames before his laser comes out), your grab will be canceled by the laser and Falco falls off the stage without touching the ground. He regains his second jump from the grab, but he takes a lot of hitstun and needs to use his Up-B to recover, so he should be dead if you grab the ledge in time. Here is a video of it:

║Frames of │... Damage │104W Frame ║║... Guaranteed followups on CF ......... │║

║. Hitstun │before hit │ advantage ║║.. (no DI) ..│ forward¹ DI │ backward DI │║

╟──────────┼───────────┼───────────╢╟─────────────┼─────────────┼─────────────┼╢

║...... 33 │....... −1 │....... −1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║

║...... 34 │.... 0 - 3 │........ 0 ║║.............│.............│.............│║

║...... 35 │.... 4 - 8 │........ 1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║

║...... 36 │.... 9- 12 │........ 2 ║║.............│.............│.............│║

║...... 37 │... 13- 17 │........ 3 ║║.............│.............│.............│║

║...... 38 │... 18- 21 │........ 4 ║║→B ..........│.............│.............│║

║...... 39 │... 22- 26 │........ 5 ║║→B ..........│ →B, ut ilt ..│←B...........│║

║...... 40 │... 27- 30 │........ 6 ║║→B, r egrab ..│ →B, ut .....│←B, T ut ......│║

║...... 41 │... 31- 35 │........ 7 ║║→B, r ..... ..│ →B, ut , ft ...│←B, T ut ......│║

║...... 42 │... 36- 40 │........ 8 ║║→B........ ..│ →B, ut , ft ...│←B, T D r , T fa , ft │║

║...... 43 │... 41- 44 │........ 9 ║║→B, bsu air ...│ →B, ut , ft ...│←B, T D r , T fa , ft │║

║...... 44 │... 45- 49 │....... 10 ║║→B, bsu , ut ...│ D →B, .. ft , FS │←B, T D r , T fa , ft │║

║...... 45 │... 50- 53 │....... 11 ║║→B, bsu , ut , T FS │ D →B, fa , ft ..│←B, T D r , T fa , ft │║

║...... 46 │... 54- 58 │....... 12 ║║→B, bsu , ut , T FS │ D →B, D fa , ft , FS │←B, T D r , T fa , ft │║

║...... 47 │... 59- 63 │....... 13 ║║→B, bsu , ut , FS │ D →B, D f u a ft , FS │←B, T D r , T fa , ft │║

║...... 48 │... 64- 67 │....... 14 ║║→B, ua , ut , FS │ D →B, D f u a ., FS │ D ←B, D f u a , FS │║

║...... 49 │... 68- 72 │....... 15 ║║.. ua , ut , T FS │ D →B, D f u a , D FS │ D ←B, D f u a , FS │║

║...... 50 │... 73- 76 │....... 16 ║║.. ua , ut , P FS │ D →B, D f u a , P FS │ D ←B, D f u a , P FS │║

║...... 51 │... 77- 81 │....... 17 ║║.. ua , ut , P FS │ D →B, D f u a ....│ D ←B, D f u a ...│║

║...... 52 │... 82- 85 │....... 18 ║║.. ua , ut , P FS │... D f u a ....│.... D f u a ...│║

║...... 53 │... 86- 90 │....... 19 ║║.. ua .......│... D f u a ....│.... D f u a ...│║

║...... 54 │... 91- 95 │....... 20 ║║.. ua .......│... D f u a ....│.... D f u a ...│║

║...... 55 │... 96- 99 │....... 21 ║║.. ua .......│... D f u a ....│.... D f u a ...│║

║...... 56 │.. 100-104 │....... 22 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 57 │...105-108 │....... 23 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 58 │...109-113 │....... 24 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 59 │...114-117 │....... 25 ║║ fj ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 60 │...118-122 │....... 26 ║║ fj ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 61 │...123-127 │....... 27 ║║ fj ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 62 │...128-131 │....... 28 ║║ fj ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 63 │...132-136 │....... 29 ║║ fj ua .......│.............│.............│║

║...... 64 │...137-140 │....... 30 ║║ fj ua .......│.............│.............│║

╚══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╝╚═════════════╧═════════════╧═════════════╧╝

Notes:

[Because one line and thus hitbox class includes a range of 4%, these are approximations and this chart is only accurate to 3%]

[when I run out of space, I leave out commas. This still keeps the individual actions separate; they don’t get combined or anything]

T indicates turning before doing the action mentioned afterwards.

D indicates dashing before doing the action mentioned afterwards.

P indicates pivoting (dash → turn) before doing the action mentioned afterwards.

B slashes into a long combo. Good DI (away or behind) escapes everything beyond the first slash, though. →B, ←B: Dancing Blade, the arrow indicates the necessary orientation. Depending on the victim’s DI, this can convert into subsequentB slashes into a long combo. Good DI (away or behind) escapes everything beyond the first slash, though.

r egrab: standing regrab for no DI, JC grab for forward / backward DI.

ut ilt: utilt, only mentioned when it lands a good hitbox. (For example, on no DI you can connect with it starting at 22%, but you only get the 45° knockback hitbox which has zero combo potential at low %. Things like this or jabs will be left out by me.)

fa ir: short hop tipper fair, good for starting combos against CF. At low %, DI away will escape most subsequent hits, though (due to his high fall acceleration).

f u a : Both tipper fair and tipper uair hit.

ua ir: short hop uair.

bsu air: backwards short hop instant uair. This needs frame perfection at 43HS/⊗ [43 frames hitstun, no DI].

FS : tipper forward smash.

T FS : Turn fsmash, also known as : Turn fsmash, also known as small step fsmash

ft : forward tilt.

Full jump uair might combo even longer on no DI.





General / Miscellaneous

Ledge knowledge

Basic information

As soon as you grab the ledge (see »Getting Battlefielded« section below for when you can grab the ledge) , you enter the CliffCatch animation that takes 7 frames during which button presses have no effect. After the 7th frame, all options except normal getup and dropping are possible (ledgejump, ledgeattack, roll). Normal getup and dropping require you to wait until the first frame of CliffWait most of the time (in very rare cases, they can also be done right after the 7 frames, but I haven’t figured out when exactly yet).



To let go of the ledge, the following angles work: (Original post: http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-17#post-16635855 As soon as you grab the ledgeTo let go of the ledge, the following angles work:

Green color indicates even holding that direction won’t cause a fastfall on frame 2 of your fall.

Blue color indicates holding that direction will always cause a fastfall if you press it for longer than 1 frame.



Reacting to ledgegrab as soon as possible to max out invincibility

As soon as you grab the ledge, the light blue circle spawns and grows larger and the sound effect is played. I think the wisest choice is reacting to the sound effect because you can still keep eyes on your opponent that way. As soon as the sound and circle effects are played, it takes another 7 frames until you can let go of the ledge. These 7 frames (~120 ms) are a bit less than top human visual reaction times (~130 ms). Mean is about 330 ms, Melee players, being trained for fast reaction and male (both factors correlating with low reaction times) probably average at about 200 ms.

Auditory reaction time is a bit faster (about 80% of the visual reaction times), so that’s another argument to go for the sound and not for the circle flash.



If your auditory reaction time is top 1‰, you might be too fast so if you train yourself to press away when you hear the click sound, you do it too early. I think even if this is the case for you, practicing it for a while will make you automatically delay it a bit anyway.



tl;dr: press away as soon as you hear the clicking sound



Quick/safe ledge options

All frames counted from the earliest point your input causes action. Sometimes.



• Ledgestand (»CLIFFCLIMBQUICK«): takes 32 frames, invulnerable 1-30

• 197°-253°¹ airdodge: Can be done as soon as on the 14th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 10 frames so total duration is 1+14+10=25 frames. Invulnerable 1-29.

• 270° airdodge (straight down): Can be done as soon as on the 15th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 10 frames so total duration is 1+15+10=26 frames. Invulnerable 1-29.

• 287°-295° airdodge (back off the stage): Can be done as soon as on the 15th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 1 frame, first frame of fall you can’t do anything so total duration is 1+15+1+1=18 frames. Invulnerable 1-29. Marth can stay invincible until he grabs the ledge only if he fastfalls, but he must do this on the 4th to 9th frame of his fall. Doing it on the 1st or 2nd frame will prevent him from grabbing the ledge at all as he still has old invincibilty preventing him from grabbing the ledge.



The 1 frame timing difference between option 2 and 3 is not without consequence. If you do a 197°-210° airdodge on the 15th ledgehop frame, you stay airborne for 1 frame longer, leaving you with only 2 invincibility frames.

¹All angles are based on the right ledge.



Here is an animation of frame perfect ledgedashstalls (repeated use of 287°-295° airdodges):



1-8¹ (ledge grabbing animation) you can’t let go of the ledge.

9 press down or away. To get the timing right, I recommend reacting to the ledgegrab animation or sound effect as 8 frames are pretty much exactly as long as good human reaction times.

10² jump and hold towards the stage.

11-24 hold towards the stage.

25 waveland backwards with ~290° (SSE if you think of the control stick as a compass)

30-35: Fastfall on any of these frames.

¹Sometimes, letting go is possible on frame 8, but this happens rarely and I don’t know why.

²You can delay the jump for 4 frames if you don’t fastfall before the jump. Doing so requires you to fastfall earlier after wavelanding. The fastfall timing windows overlap at two frames, 5 and 6 after wavelanding.

You must let go of the ledge on the first possible frame, though—else you are vulnerable at the end for at least as many frames as you delayed it.



The hardest part is probably getting the correct angle on frame 25. If you prefer doing a 315° angle (SE), you can use a slightly different algorithm that also has full invincibility:

1-8 (ledge grabbing animation) you can’t let go of the ledge.

9 press down. To get the timing right, I recommend reacting to the ledgegrab animation or sound effect as 8 frames are pretty much exactly as long as good human reaction times.

10 hold down.

11 jump and hold towards the stage.

12-27 hold towards the stage.

28 waveland backwards with exactly 315° (SE, easy to do because of the octagon carving)

31-34: Fastfall on any of these frames.

Movement options

Quick movement before an attack

For techchasing and punishing lag, you often need to run up to opponents very quickly. As there are many ways to do that, here is a comparison of them, with fsmash as an example:

From top to bottom: pivot fsmash (65 frames), wd fsmash (63 frames), dwd fsmash (64 frames), dwdss fsmash (65 frames, see my next post). I added Wait animation frames so that all gifs have the same length and don’t desync.











Getting “Battlefielded”

Surely you’ve already experienced this: you try to sweetspot your up-B to the ledge on Battlefield, and you miss the ledge even though it clearly looks like you should have grabbed it. Now why is that? Frame-by-frame rundown:1-8¹ (ledge grabbing animation) you can’t let go of the ledge.9 press down or away. To get the timing right, I recommend reacting to the ledgegrab animation or sound effect as 8 frames are pretty much exactly as long as good human reaction times.10² jump and hold towards the stage.11-24 hold towards the stage.25 waveland backwards with ~290° (SSE if you think of the control stick as a compass)30-35: Fastfall on any of these frames.The hardest part is probably getting the correct angle on frame 25. If you prefer doing a 315° angle (SE), you can use a slightly different algorithm that also has full invincibility:1-8 (ledge grabbing animation) you can’t let go of the ledge.9 press down. To get the timing right, I recommend reacting to the ledgegrab animation or sound effect as 8 frames are pretty much exactly as long as good human reaction times.10 hold down.11 jump and hold towards the stage.12-27 hold towards the stage.28 waveland backwards with exactly 315° (SE, easy to do because of the octagon carving)31-34: Fastfall on any of these frames.For techchasing and punishing lag, you often need to run up to opponents very quickly. As there are many ways to do that, here is a comparison of them, with fsmash as an example:From top to bottom: pivot fsmash (65 frames), wd fsmash (63 frames), dwd fsmash (64 frames), dwdss fsmash (65 frames, see my next post). I addedanimation frames so that all gifs have the same length and don’t desync.Surely you’ve already experienced this: you try to sweetspot your up-B to the ledge on Battlefield, and you miss the ledge even though it clearly looks like you should have grabbed it. Now why is that?

In the picture above, you can see the collsion lines of the stage (red is ceiling, blue is wall) and Marth’s ECB (Environment Collision Box). The smaller red and blue boxes behind and in front of Marth are his ledge grab boxes. If the one that’s in front of him overlaps the ledge and Marth is falling, he grabs it.



Now as you can see, the direction Marth is moving in changes during between the last two frames. That’s because he collides with the stage and is forced to move along the outer line of the stage. If he had used his up-B a few frames earlier, he would now get pressed even more northwest. Thus, his blue ledgegrab box would overlap the ledge and he would grab it as soon as his Δy turned negative.

This stupidity also exists on YS, you just need to be even closer:

The only solutions are to do your up-B a bit earlier or a bit more away from the stage. Both come with drawbacks—if you do it earlier, you’re more vulnerable, and if you’re less closer to the ledge, ledgeteching with single SDI might become impossible.



Understanding hitboxes

Uptilt

Uptilt has 8 different hitboxes, of which only 4 are active at the same time. The first group (“early”) stays out for frame 6-8, then it gets replaced by the second group (“clean”) for frames 9-12.



Forward aerial





Up aerial





Grabs

While the consensus seems to be that JC grab is better for reaching up to opponents, this isn’t always true. Standing grab comes out 3 frames earlier than running grab, but every frame you spend in kneebend animation is subtracted from these 3. Also, Marth moves slower during JC grab’s startup than during dashgrabs startup. Boost grab is just as fast as dashgrab if performed perfectly, so there is no incentive to do it with Marth. While the consensus seems to be that JC grab is better for reaching up to opponents, this isn’t always true. Standing grab comes out 3 frames earlier than running grab, but every frame you spend in kneebend animation is subtracted from these 3. Also, Marth moves slower during JC grab’s startup than during dashgrabs startup. Boost grab is just as fast as dashgrab if performed perfectly, so there is no incentive to do it with Marth.



Dancing Blade

Here are DB1 knockback angles:

And here DB2→:



And in case this isn’t obvious: If one hitbubble overlaps another, this illustrates that this bubble has priority. Priority chain: pink > salmon > cyan > sky blue.



Extended range fsmashes (“Small step forward smash”)

You can use this technique by dashing for up to 3 frames before fsmashing. This is not a pivot! I wrote more about it on

Situations where it might be useful:

• After fthrow if the opponent just barely DIed out of standing fsmash range

• Between two of Falco’s lasers

• For techchasing on a low platform (for example BF’s side platforms, you are standing below a teching opponent. You can cover roll behind you with fsmash backwards and roll in front of you with small step fsmash)



Moonwalking and stickywalking with Marth

Both aren’t particularly useful techniques. I only include this for curiosity and players who like to intimidate their opponents with their style.



Moving backwards noticably with Marth by moonwalking is only possible by walking or wavedashing in the opposite direction before. There are two ways of best moonwalks:

1. Dash right for 1 frame and hold straight from the next frame on. This is only possible during the first frames of a dash and not out of a dash dance or a turn. This is because going straight right to straight left usually produces a turn, but on the first two frames turning is not possible (on frame 3, the turn is still not possible, but unlike 1 and 2, holding left will not cause a moonwalk but a turn on frame 4)

2. Dash right, then hold left/down for two frames, then move to straight left. This works out of a dash dance.





Marth can cover a great distance with this if it’s done perfectly. Here is a TAS video that shows how it’s done:

To do a stickywalk, you need to hold forward/down (315° if looking to the right) as late as possible during the initial dash. If you do it 1 frame too late, the window where you can continue the dash into a run is over and you will simply crouch. If you do it to early, you will lose some momentum.Marth can cover a great distance with this if it’s done perfectly. Here is a TAS video that shows how it’s done: All other values – damage, KBG, BKB etc. are the same for all four hitboxes.And in case this isn’t obvious: If one hitbubble overlaps another, this illustrates that this bubble has priority. Priority chain: pink > salmon > cyan > sky blue.You can use this technique by dashing for up to 3 frames before fsmashing. This isa pivot! I wrote more about it on SSBWiki Situations where it might be useful:• After fthrow if the opponent just barely DIed out of standing fsmash range• Between two of Falco’s lasers• For techchasing on a low platform (for example BF’s side platforms, you are standing below a teching opponent. You can cover roll behind you with fsmash backwards and roll in front of you with small step fsmash)Both aren’t particularly useful techniques. I only include this for curiosity and players who like to intimidate their opponents with their style.





Knockback comparison

Here is a picture that compares the knockback scaling of Marth’s killing attacks.

Here is a picture that compares the knockback scaling of Marth’s killing attacks.

Purple is fthrow-regrab coverage, green is dthrow-regrab coverage. All angles that are multiples of π/4 (0°, 45°, 90°, 135°, …) are displayed exactly, and so are all »mod 45°±17°« angles. Angles near all diagonals are not exact and might be off by a few lines as I do my inputs with Gamecube Controllers and can’t be sure about the angle I’m holding. I have double-checked all areas overlapped by fthrow and dthrow coverage, though, so I can say for sure that there is no angle that lets Puff escape both throws.Because I feel these pictures are much easier to understand than long lists of angles, from now on I will use them for all situations.¹Always assuming Puff is grabbed at the right side of MarthAt 20%, the angles are hardly any different, fthrow and dthrow still cover everything: