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The Pennsylvania Senate State Government Committee heard ideas Monday for toughening ethics rules, including a complete gift ban. One state that could be used as a model is Kentucky.

Once there was a Commonwealth rife with legislative corruption.

There were scandals, indictments, arrests and convictions. At that point, the state's lawmakers were shamed into acting. They passed reforms, and said they could not receive gifts from any lobbyist or person employing a lobbyist. They would have to disclose every penny of a meal lobbyists bought them. They even changed the rules for how lobbyists could donate to their campaigns.

After the reforms were passed, they governed the Commonwealth for 20 years. The only alteration was to make even a cup of coffee from a lobbyist illegal.

Of course, this Commonwealth was not Pennsylvania, but Kentucky.

Monday, H. John Schaaf, counsel for the Kentucky Legislative Ethics Commission, gave the Senate State Government Committee for how Pennsylvania -- which has had plenty of scandals, indictments, arrests and convictions in recent years -- might be able to change its own laws.

Reformers here were listening.

The Senate has already passed a ban on lawmakers and other public officials receiving cash gifts, which the House is expected to take up soon. But Sen. Lloyd Smucker, R-Lancaster, said reform efforts should not end there.

"That was only a first step," Smucker said. "We're willing to go beyond that."

Schaaf was on hand to testify about Kentucky, which called a special session of its legislature in 1993 after several lawmakers were charged with ethics violations by the FBI. Now, Schaaf said, Kentucky has some of the toughest ethics measures in the country.

"Once you get an ethics law on the books," Schaaf said, "it's not easy to change it."

Among other things, Kentucky law bans: lobbyists contributing to legislators or legislative candidates; PACs or employers of lobbyists contributing to legislators and candidates during Kentucky's legislative session; lobbyists spending any money on food or beverages for lawmakers, candidates or their immediate families; lobbyists giving anything of value to a legislator or candidate or the spouse or child of a legislator or candidate; legislators using their office for private gain.

Legislators in Kentucky must also attend ethics training at the start of every session.

Smucker and his counterpart Sen. Matt Smith, D-Allegheny, were intrigued Monday by the idea of bringing some of those ideas to Pennsylvania. Smith, in particular, said campaign financing restrictions should ultimately be part of any broad reform package that could come forward.

Barry Kauffman, Executive Director of Common Cause Pennsylvania, told the committee such moves were long overdue.

"A public official could still meet with anyone, have dinner with anyone or travel with anyone he or she wants," Kauffman said. "But, it could not be paid for by those seeking to influence that official."

Expect a lot more discussion before any comprehensive reform packages move forward. Currently, Pennsylvania lawmakers and officials only have to disclose a gift it exceeds a threshold ($250 for tangible gifts and $650 for hospitality, entertainment and lodging). Some lawmakers are still questioning if a gift ban is needed, or if lowering those limits -- which are some of the most generous in the country -- would accomplish the same goal.

It's also worth remembering that Pennsylvania is not like Kentucky, where the part-time legislature is only in session from January to April every year. Also, it's strict ethics laws apply only to the legislature, not other government bodies. If they were applied in Pennsylvania, for example, they would not have covered the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, where gifts were at the heart of a grand jury presentment aimed at top officials.

That's one of the factors legislators will have to weigh as they move forward in Pennsylvania, Smucker said.

The more people a gift ban covers, the more complex the legislation becomes, he said. That can make it harder to craft and win broad support. But he didn't rule it out.

Also, Smucker found the idea of an independent commission to investigate ethics complaints a novel approach. In Pennsylvania, a committee of senators is charged with investigating ethics complaints against their fellow members. It can create an odd dynamic, Smucker said, since a Senator might have to judge a lawmaker that he or she also needs to cooperate with for a particular piece of legislation.

The commission in Kentucky answers questions about the rules every day, Schaaf said. It's an easy way for lawmakers and lobbyists to make sure they stay within the lines.

Questions have been raised about how a gift ban would work in Pennsylvania. For example, who could count as a "friend" who could legally give a lawmaker a gift. Those questions existed in Kentucky, Schaaf said, but lawmakers there worked it out.

When new lawmakers are elected, Schaaf said, they accept this new climate as how business is done. Before long, he said, the whole culture really can get turned over.