Khao Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 58 Posts Last Edited: 2011-06-21 20:49:29 #1



My suggestion is to implement a system with 4 ladder pools (not entirely unique to one another however).



Pool 1: Bronze to Gold will share the same map pool (Smaller more friendly maps, with some of what blizzard calls "normal maps").



Pool 2: Gold to Platinum will share some maps from Pool 1, with the addition of more "normal maps", removal of some smaller maps.



Pool 3: Plat to Diamond, again same concept sharing some maps from Pool 2, possibly removing all maps from Pool 1 or have a limited amount remaining.



Pool 4: Diamond to Grand Master. This ladder pool will involve more tournament approved maps (ICCUP, GSL, MLG, etc), we may also allow community feedback to sway away from maps the community disapproves. If Blizzard simply looked at statistics on map popularity of these maps, or gathered a census of data based on pro-player feedback they could determine which maps to put in this pool. From my understanding of Blizzard's policy on map creation, they own all the intellectual rights to any map created through their Map Editor - thus utilizing ICCUP, GSL and MLG maps would be a non issue.



For those already thinking that it would be difficult to create the large amount of maps for ladder pools, I believe this would not be an issue. There is already a large pool of maps that could be used at the high end (Pool 4) in the competitive scene. There is also a number of ladder maps deemed controversial that could be used for lower league play (Pool 1-3), these being Delta, Scrapstation, Steps, etc. If there was in fact a problem with the limited map set or even the quality of maps, I'm sure running a small contest held by Blizzard could easily prompt members of the community to create league specific maps - more so for the lower league maps as they require less attention and equality due to skill set and audience.



In terms of Match Making, I'm not quite sure how much of an impact this would have on the system. The question is will players be matched with different map pools, and how repetitive will the map frequency be? From my understanding players are matched based on their MMR prior to map consideration, so map consideration would be less of a problem. If the maps became to repetitive when being matched with different leagues they could increase the map selection in each of the pools, and the possible match making issue could be avoided? Hopefully someone with greater knowledge on the topic with a math background could give some feedback.



Ideally I would love to see Pool 4 be a very volatile set of maps where they adjust to the current maps being used in tournaments - an update about every month, this assuming there is a change.



The difficulty with this system from my perspective is simply time. It would take large amounts of time to employ an adjusted ladder system, as well as determining the map pool. However this one con to the system from my perspective is greatly outweighed by the pros. This being a more personalized map pool, maintains the values Blizzard wishes to maintain for lower leaguers, imbalanced maps being less of a determinant in games, promotion of esports as it gives a better introduction to the competitive scene, and of course better looking maps - gotta love dual sight, and that epic beach map.



Anyway I could be rambling by now, and apologies for the poor grammar as I'm writing this in the middle of econ lecture. Obviously this system is designed for the community, and to be more supportive of an esport theme. The system I suggested should simply be a discussion topic not the actual system being implemented.



EDIT: Large amounts of you feel that everyone should be playing on tournament maps regardless of league, as much as I support this idea I know Blizzard does not. They prefer to discourage new players with enormous maps - while not every map I'm suggesting is enormous, it is the general theme relative to Blizzards "rush" maps. Again this is merely a discussion, so PLEASE speak to alternative ideas that Blizzard could take! Hopefully someone at Blizzard may get an idea from this thread to change the map pool for the better.



EDIT: Added a poll.

Poll: Your opinions on this system



Blizzard should add tournament maps and increase veto count (156)

72%



Great idea! There are a few minor issues but they can be resolved (37)

17%



Terrible idea, unrealistic, elitist! (22)

10%



I have a better idea! (Post below) (2)

1%



217 total votes (156)72%(37)17%(22)10%(2)1%217 total votes Your vote: Your opinions on this system (Vote): Great idea! There are a few minor issues but they can be resolved

(Vote): Terrible idea, unrealistic, elitist!

(Vote): Blizzard should add tournament maps and increase veto count

(Vote): I have a better idea! (Post below)

Obviously some members of community fell this is a great idea, and has been suggested several times, while some have said it has it's own problems. I think having a system where maps are based upon leagues would promote further competitive play at the high end (assuming they appeal to the audience correctly), while allowing casuals and new players to join the game easily without being overwhelmed. As a low-mid Master's level player (Zerg main), I can see the appeal to having more tournament maps in the ladder pool, it would give an entry into the competitive scene, along with pro-players possibly using the ladder system more than its current state by getting some value out of it than experimentation of new builds.My suggestion is to implement a system with 4 ladder pools (not entirely unique to one another however).Pool 1: Bronze to Gold will share the same map pool (Smaller more friendly maps, with some of what blizzard calls "normal maps").Pool 2: Gold to Platinum will share some maps from Pool 1, with the addition of more "normal maps", removal of some smaller maps.Pool 3: Plat to Diamond, again same concept sharing some maps from Pool 2, possibly removing all maps from Pool 1 or have a limited amount remaining.Pool 4: Diamond to Grand Master. This ladder pool will involve more tournament approved maps (ICCUP, GSL, MLG, etc), we may also allow community feedback to sway away from maps the community disapproves. If Blizzard simply looked at statistics on map popularity of these maps, or gathered a census of data based on pro-player feedback they could determine which maps to put in this pool. From my understanding of Blizzard's policy on map creation, they own all the intellectual rights to any map created through their Map Editor - thus utilizing ICCUP, GSL and MLG maps would be a non issue.For those already thinking that it would be difficult to create the large amount of maps for ladder pools, I believe this would not be an issue. There is already a large pool of maps that could be used at the high end (Pool 4) in the competitive scene. There is also a number of ladder maps deemed controversial that could be used for lower league play (Pool 1-3), these being Delta, Scrapstation, Steps, etc. If there was in fact a problem with the limited map set or even the quality of maps, I'm sure running a small contest held by Blizzard could easily prompt members of the community to create league specific maps - more so for the lower league maps as they require less attention and equality due to skill set and audience.In terms of Match Making, I'm not quite sure how much of an impact this would have on the system. The question is will players be matched with different map pools, and how repetitive will the map frequency be? From my understanding players are matched based on their MMR prior to map consideration, so map consideration would be less of a problem. If the maps became to repetitive when being matched with different leagues they could increase the map selection in each of the pools, and the possible match making issue could be avoided? Hopefully someone with greater knowledge on the topic with a math background could give some feedback.Ideally I would love to see Pool 4 be a very volatile set of maps where they adjust to the current maps being used in tournaments - an update about every month, this assuming there is a change.The difficulty with this system from my perspective is simply time. It would take large amounts of time to employ an adjusted ladder system, as well as determining the map pool. However this one con to the system from my perspective is greatly outweighed by the pros. This being a more personalized map pool, maintains the values Blizzard wishes to maintain for lower leaguers, imbalanced maps being less of a determinant in games, promotion of esports as it gives a better introduction to the competitive scene, and of course better looking maps - gotta love dual sight, and that epic beach map.Anyway I could be rambling by now, and apologies for the poor grammar as I'm writing this in the middle of econ lecture. Obviously this system is designed for the community, and to be more supportive of an esport theme. The system I suggested should simply be a discussion topic not the actual system being implemented.EDIT: Large amounts of you feel that everyone should be playing on tournament maps regardless of league, as much as I support this idea I know Blizzard does not. They prefer to discourage new players with enormous maps - while not every map I'm suggesting is enormous, it is the general theme relative to Blizzards "rush" maps. Again this is merely a discussion, so PLEASE speak to alternative ideas that Blizzard could take! Hopefully someone at Blizzard may get an idea from this thread to change the map pool for the better.EDIT: Added a poll.

Jiver Profile Joined March 2011 Canada 46 Posts #2 To me this sounds like an excellent idea. People in higher leagues have more of a grasp at the game and thus know how to play a macro game on a macro map while lower league players think every map is the same until they get more experience. It wouldn't be that hard to do, but with the person that gave us the updated version of Bnet 2.0 showing us what COULD be done that isn't (even though it was just photoshopped), it could take a while for blizz to implement this. My spoon is too big!

blabber Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 4380 Posts #3 I've been an advocate for a different map pool for Master/Diamond League since release. I really see NOTHING wrong with this idea. blabberrrrr

Poonchow Profile Joined September 2010 United States 56 Posts Last Edited: 2011-06-21 19:16:45 #4 This is an interesting concept, but I think the outcry for better maps comes from all skill levels, not just the higher-level players. There are bronze players that want to play on the tournament maps because they watch the tournaments. Blizzard doesn't seem to realize that the maps they create are inferior to the maps made by the GSL and ICCUP etc. I think it might also suck for everyone to have to learn a new set of maps every time they are close to a promotion / demotion? Dunno, the concept seems like what Blizzard wants for their map pool, but I think if they just used a bunch of tournament maps then the ladder would be a lot more bearable.

OwlHarris Profile Joined May 2011 United States 53 Posts #5 I think this is actually a great idea.I feel like blizzard should be asking for the community's opinion on the maps in the first place, but this will at least solve the problem for higher level players.

In my opinion, the lower leagues should have maps geared towards macro games, because that is pretty much what everyone tells lower league players to focus on.

Excalibur_Z Profile Joined October 2002 United States 11881 Posts #6 Dumb idea for numerous reasons:



1. It segregates the community. Having to learn completely different maps for each league completely changes the dynamic of the ladder system. Any player should be able to play on any map.



2. It destroys the impartiality of the system. Players are only Masters and Grandmasters because they're better than Diamonds who are better than Plats who all play on the same maps. If players all played on different maps by league then the meanings of those leagues becomes clouded. Moderator

blabber Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 4380 Posts #7 On June 22 2011 04:14 Excalibur_Z wrote:

Dumb idea for numerous reasons:



1. It segregates the community. Having to learn completely different maps for each league completely changes the dynamic of the ladder system. Any player should be able to play on any map.



2. It destroys the impartiality of the system. Players are only Masters and Grandmasters because they're better than Diamonds who are better than Plats who all play on the same maps. If players all played on different maps by league then the meanings of those leagues becomes clouded.

1. How about if it's only Master League that has the different map pool?

2. Of course. But shouldn't Master/GM players deserve to play on maps that are good? 1. How about if it's only Master League that has the different map pool?2. Of course. But shouldn't Master/GM players deserve to play on maps that are good? blabberrrrr

lolsixtynine Profile Blog Joined January 2011 United States 600 Posts #8 I really can't see where the huge problem with this is. Are there really people who watch GSL and don't play enough to make it out of bronze? It seems that a very large majority of bronze-gold players would be totally fine with playing on smaller maps and/or wouldn't know the difference.

Leyra Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 986 Posts #9 This would further create different balance issues at lower leagues, which it's frustrating enough for a high level player that blizzard tries to balance for lower leagues. In addition, players in lower leagues shouldn't be taught to play one game when at top levels its a completely different game. Also, it would create a gap between lower players and pro players, and would impact lower players interest in watching tournaments I think, since the pros are playing on different maps with a completely different style, you'll lose that "Hah, yeah, that happens to me on that map sometimes!" type feeling.



Bad idea overall, I think.

ShnAndrei Profile Joined March 2011 Romania 164 Posts #10 This will make lower league players so sad imo. Even if they are in lower leagues, 99% of them love the GSL maps as much as the better players and would love to be able to play on them as well. This splitting of the map pool would make these players very disappointed that they aren't in a higher league to be able to play on them.



I think Blizzard should be fair with everybody, but let the community decide what maps to play on (or at least start a world wide poll for selecting the maps from a bigger list). I don't think there is a single player that would say yes to a 'rush' map. Besides, people like to choose their own strategies, not being 'choked' by Blizzard's strategy limiting maps.



Xel'Naga Caverns and Metalopolis are the single greatest maps Blizzard made, because they can allow all possible strategies, without being too 'rushy' or too 'macroish'. Lets just hope Blizzard won't take them out for being the oldest ones in the pool. ^^

Khao Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 58 Posts #11 On June 22 2011 04:14 Excalibur_Z wrote:

Dumb idea for numerous reasons:



1. It segregates the community. Having to learn completely different maps for each league completely changes the dynamic of the ladder system. Any player should be able to play on any map.



2. It destroys the impartiality of the system. Players are only Masters and Grandmasters because they're better than Diamonds who are better than Plats who all play on the same maps. If players all played on different maps by league then the meanings of those leagues becomes clouded.



1. As much as I would love to avoid the problem of segregation, Blizzard has shown us that lower leaguers have the priority in the ladder pool than competitive players. Unfortunately our skill sets and values for what determines a good map is different than theirs, as a result I can only see this as a solution, or simply a large map pool with an increase in the number of maps you can veto.



2. From the perspective of some players this may be the case, as they believe X player is only good due to maps, and I'm actually in league Y but I'm playing on maps in pool 1. However the objective reality is that a good player will out perform a bad one (I'm speaking in general to the comparison of a Silver player to a Diamond) regardless of map. 1. As much as I would love to avoid the problem of segregation, Blizzard has shown us that lower leaguers have the priority in the ladder pool than competitive players. Unfortunately our skill sets and values for what determines a good map is different than theirs, as a result I can only see this as a solution, or simply a large map pool with an increase in the number of maps you can veto.2. From the perspective of some players this may be the case, as they believe X player is only good due to maps, and I'm actually in league Y but I'm playing on maps in pool 1. However the objective reality is that a good player will out perform a bad one (I'm speaking in general to the comparison of a Silver player to a Diamond) regardless of map.

blabber Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 4380 Posts #12 On June 22 2011 04:19 Leyra wrote:

This would further create different balance issues at lower leagues, which it's frustrating enough for a high level player that blizzard tries to balance for lower leagues. In addition, players in lower leagues shouldn't be taught to play one game when at top levels its a completely different game. Also, it would create a gap between lower players and pro players, and would impact lower players interest in watching tournaments I think, since the pros are playing on different maps with a completely different style, you'll lose that "Hah, yeah, that happens to me on that map sometimes!" type feeling.



Bad idea overall, I think.

Any "balance issues at lower leagues" you speak of do not exist because balance does not matter as much in lower leagues. And you're saying there shouldn't be a "gap" between lower players and pro players? Lower players and pro players should be on the same level? What?



If anything, it would encourage lower level players to get better so they can play on those maps on ladder Any "balance issues at lower leagues" you speak of do not exist because balance does not matter as much in lower leagues. And you're saying there shouldn't be a "gap" between lower players and pro players? Lower players and pro players should be on the same level? What?If anything, it would encourage lower level players to get better so they can play on those maps on ladder blabberrrrr

Gentso Profile Joined July 2010 United States 1750 Posts #13 I agree with Excalibur.



However, maybe there could be a tournament or esport ladder separate to the Blizzard ladder with the most popular tournament maps. It's awfully strange to me how the ladder is becoming a different game than what people watch their players play. People watch tournaments and want to be like the players, but they can't! : (

VaultDweller Profile Joined January 2011 Romania 127 Posts #14 Won't simply a bigger map pool with more veto ( real veto, not just a decreased chance you would get that map) options solve this? I think players on all leagues would naturally shift towards the maps they like / feel comfortable on without forcing others to play on maps they hate... "War is not about who's right- it's about who's left."

AAforhigher Profile Joined January 2011 Belgium 6 Posts #15 bad idea. Let everyone play on dual sight/crevasse and Belshir beach.

blabber Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 4380 Posts #16 On June 22 2011 04:24 Gentso wrote:

I agree with Excalibur.



However, maybe there could be a tournament or esport ladder separate to the Blizzard ladder with the most popular tournament maps. It's awfully strange to me how the ladder is becoming a different game than what people watch their players play. People watch tournaments and want to be like the players, but they can't! : (

How is it strange? There's a lack of quality maps coming from Blizzard's map pool so tournaments use their own maps to produce better games How is it strange? There's a lack of quality maps coming from Blizzard's map pool so tournaments use their own maps to produce better games blabberrrrr

blabber Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 4380 Posts #17 On June 22 2011 04:26 AAforhigher wrote:

bad idea. Let everyone play on dual sight/crevasse and Belshir beach.

While this idea may seem innocent, I know someone who was in talks with Blizzard about this, and basically they said that bigger maps don't work in lower leagues. A bronze league game on Tal'Darim Altar involves both players taking a bunch of hidden expansions because neither player has the mechanics to actually scout for these hidden expansions While this idea may seem innocent, I know someone who was in talks with Blizzard about this, and basically they said that bigger maps don't work in lower leagues. A bronze league game on Tal'Darim Altar involves both players taking a bunch of hidden expansions because neither player has the mechanics to actually scout for these hidden expansions blabberrrrr

AGIANTSMURF Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 1230 Posts #18 The thing thats broken about your idea that hasnt already been mentioned is how you have some golds playing on pool A and higher golds playing on pool B (same going for plat's and diamond)



It removes the consistency of the game and just makes things unnecessarily complicated.



Do i wish we had better maps? yes. Do i think your solution is realistic? no. Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you.....

Exstasy Profile Joined August 2010 United Kingdom 393 Posts #19 What you seem to be assuming here is that everyone in the lower leagues are these 'rush loving' players that blizzard is catering for,



I LOVE macroing, and pro games and i strive to improve, yet i am merely in Gold, so you're saying i have to use only these Rush maps, because i'm not that good?



I want to play on Macro maps only if i could.

The point i'm trying to make is that League Does NOT reflect how the player likes to play the game.

Khao Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 58 Posts #20 On June 22 2011 04:19 Leyra wrote:

This would further create different balance issues at lower leagues, which it's frustrating enough for a high level player that blizzard tries to balance for lower leagues. In addition, players in lower leagues shouldn't be taught to play one game when at top levels its a completely different game. Also, it would create a gap between lower players and pro players, and would impact lower players interest in watching tournaments I think, since the pros are playing on different maps with a completely different style, you'll lose that "Hah, yeah, that happens to me on that map sometimes!" type feeling.



Bad idea overall, I think.



I think that the balance issue would be less apparent that your making it out to be. Regarding the difference in games between high and low level, this may in fact be the case. However if you spoke to a lower leaguer, or looked at the stats of games you would probably see the macro-orientated style is not very prevalent at the lower lower - they are teaching themselves to cheese and rush not the maps.



Tournaments are also using less and less ladder maps, eventually they may drop it all together and have a completely different set of maps. I think that the balance issue would be less apparent that your making it out to be. Regarding the difference in games between high and low level, this may in fact be the case. However if you spoke to a lower leaguer, or looked at the stats of games you would probably see the macro-orientated style is not very prevalent at the lower lower - they are teaching themselves to cheese and rush not the maps.Tournaments are also using less and less ladder maps, eventually they may drop it all together and have a completely different set of maps.

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