Canada's military is still defining the term "hateful conduct" as it grapples with how to better detect and discipline white supremacists in its ranks.

In a recent wide-ranging interview with CBC News, military leaders said they have identified areas of improvement and are working toward change. They hope to announce details in the coming months.

"I do understand that sometimes from the outside we might look opaque, but that is due to privacy reasons that we can't divulge specific information," Brig.-Gen. Sylvain Menard, the chief of staff operations for military personnel, said at DND headquarters in Ottawa.

"I think the fact that we're here today trying to demystify and explain what we're doing is our attempt to say, 'No, we are open and transparent.'"

The military has been grappling with a prominent example of extremism in its ranks, following the high-profile arrest of Patrik Mathews, a former Manitoba-based reservist, as part of an FBI undercover operation into a violent white supremacist group called The Base.

Last month, a federal grand jury in Maryland indicted Mathews, 27, and two U.S. men on firearms- and alien-related charges. His next court appearance there is scheduled for Tuesday afternoon.

Mathews is also facing additional counts in Delaware. If convicted, he could face up to a maximum of 90 years in U.S. prison.

Menard, left, says he's trying to 'demystify' the process of identifying and disciplining Forces members involved in hateful conduct. (Pierre-Paul Couture/CBC)

In court documents, prosecutors say Mathews videotaped himself advocating killing people, poisoning water supplies and derailing trains.

They also allege that Mathews and two other co-accused had been planning to violently disrupt a gun-rights rally in Richmond, Va., in hopes of inciting civil war.

The Canadian military began investigating Mathews in the spring of 2019, after someone reported comments "incompatible with the Canadian Forces." At the time, he was a former combat engineer with the 38 Canadian Brigade Group in Winnipeg, with training in explosives.

The military fast-tracked his request to be released from the reserves. That officially came through on Aug. 30, 2019.

"It takes a while to conduct these investigations. We have to follow due process, every Canadian has the same right, where innocent until proven guilty, and at the time of release, we just didn't have enough to do anything about Mr. Mathews," Menard said.

Watch | Trying to keep extremists out of Canada's military reserves:

Canada’s military says it is working to prevent extremists from joining the reserves following the high-profile arrest of a former reservist with alleged ties to a U.S. white supremacy group. 2:49

"I think it's a success story that we were investigating the member, even though we did not have a chance to fully close the loop."

Defining 'hateful conduct'

Part of the problem is that the military is still defining and codifying the term "hateful conduct," something that has to be done in conjunction with the military justice system, Menard said.

Until that's done, it is hard to discipline members and keep good statistics, he added.

Right now, hateful conduct is lumped into a category of behaviour that doesn't measure up to expectations. Every year, the military reviews about 200 cases. Of those, approximately half of those are released.

"We have to evolve just as Canadian society evolves," said Brig.-Gen. Yvonne Thomson, who is responsible for military careers and discipline.

"Adjusting our language is part of the issue we're trying to solve."

Watch | Brig.-Gen. Yvonne Thomson describes disciplinary options:

Brig.-Gen. Yvonne Thomson describes the range of disciplinary and administrative options available for anyone accused or found to be engaged in racist or discriminatory behaviour. 3:01

But retired colonel Michel Drapeau said it's taking too long.

"You've got to have the definition," he said from his law office in Ottawa.

"Just as an aside, it took them almost a couple of years to define sexual harassment. They didn't know what that was. …There is no excuse in 2020 for not knowing this. Get on with it."

However, the military maintains that even without a formal definition of "hateful conduct," it is taking action.

Watch | Retired Col. Michel Drapeau, warns of a 'back door' for extremists:

Retired Col. Michel Drapeau, now a lawyer in Ottawa, says the Canadian reserves are a 'back door' for extremists to get into the military, and they do it for weapons training. 1:35

Menard pointed to reports by the Military Police Criminal Intelligence Section on white supremacy in the armed forces. Between 2013 and 2018, there were 16 identified members of extreme hate groups in the Canadian military, and another 35 engaged in racist or hateful behaviour.

As of Dec. 5, 2019, no wrongdoing was found in eight of those cases. Fifteen members still with the CAF received interventions ranging from counselling to disciplinary measures. Three people were discharged because of hateful conduct. Seven investigations are still underway.

Salvaging careers

There is a range of disciplinary and administrative options for anyone accused or found to be engaged in racist or discriminatory behaviour, and Thomson maintains they are effective.

For example, if someone has a problem with alcohol abuse, they could be warned and offered counselling. If they are drunk and get into a fight, they could be charged under the Code of Military Discipline and then offered remediation.

In both cases, the military will give the member an opportunity to correct their behaviour.

Patrik Mathews, in a 2015 photo, is a former combat engineer with the 38 Canadian Brigade Group in Winnipeg, with training in explosives. He faces serious charges in the United States, which an assistant U.S. attorney described in court as domestic terrorism. (Courtney Rutherford/CBC)

"If we can salvage somebody's career then we'll take the steps that we think are necessary," said Thomson, who is responsible for military careers and discipline.

"The punitive issue is the visible signal to the rest of the folks in the unit that this is counter to our behaviour and it needs to be stopped. The administrative measures can be sometimes more quiet and more — I don't want to say behind closed doors — but they naturally will unfold and they can be more sensitive in nature."

Administrative measures can ultimately lead to a member's release from the military, she added.

'Oh shit. Not again'

The Mathews case has also raised questions about whether the reserves are what Col. Drapeau characterizes as a "back door" for white supremacists to get into the Forces.

"If I were chief of [Canadian military] personnel my first comment, 'Oh shit. Not again,'" Drapeau said.

"You are a prime target for people who want to come and join and become members of the armed forces. … They have to be more diligent and more alert to a vulnerability in there," he said.

Tony McAleer as a skinhead in the 1990s, in front of a naval ship. McAleer joined the naval reserves to get weapons training and encouraged other white supremacists to do the same. Now he works to de-radicalize people trying to leave hate groups. (Tony McAleer)

Tony McAleer agrees.

As he watched the arrests in the U.S., McAleer wasn't surprised to hear Mathews and a co-accused had ties to their respective militaries.

"Due to the nature of the military and the wide range of people it attracts, I think it always is a problem, but I think as the organizations like The Base or Atomwaffen [Division] become more and more militant, the need for vigilance is heightened," McAleer said recently from his home in Vancouver.

"You know there's fine lines between patriotism and nationalism and ultra-nationalism. There's overlap," said the former skinhead and organizer for the White Aryan Resistance. He has since de-radicalized, co-founded a nonprofit organization called Life After Hate, and written a book.

Watch | Tony McAleer suggests how to identify extremists:

Tony McAleer is a former white supremacist who joined the reserves for weapons training. He has some advice for how to identify extremists in the military. 1:37

McAleer knows what he's talking about. He joined an airborne infantry reserve unit in the 1990s and encouraged other white supremacists to do the same.

"I first joined the reserves infantry for the weapons training. That was the attraction. ... I think the military has always had to guard itself against people joining for the wrong reasons," McAleer said.

However, there are already steps to identifying recruits with extremist views for both the regular forces and the reserves, said Brig.-Gen. Liam McGarry, the commander responsible for recruiting.

They include an aptitude test, reference and conduct checks, security screenings, and a personal interview.

Recruiters look through social media and even tattoos. If someone has body art deemed to be part of a hateful-conduct organization, that would make them unsuitable, McGarry said.

"Having a level of vagueness or mystery to the whole process actually prevents everyone from ultimately being able to game or have a detailed plan to get through everything. The expectation should be anything that you have done … chances are it will come to light throughout the process," he said.

The Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence is sometimes asked to provide training to military and civilian personnel employed by the Canadian Armed Forces. (Benjamin Ducol/Center for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence)

Of the 45,000 applications for regular forces last year, 370 were rejected for a category of unsuitability, of which 28 fall under what could be considered hateful conduct. There are no similar statistics for the approximately 15,000 reserve applications every year.

McGarry maintained the Forces are becoming a much more diverse group every year, better reflecting Canadian society and creating a more inclusive atmosphere.

Getting outside help is suggested

In light of what's become an embarrassing and ongoing problem, Drapeau and others are urging the CAF to get outside help in de-radicalizing members exhibiting hateful conduct.

In Quebec, the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence, trains organizational leaders to prevent radicalization rather than just reacting to it.

"Even if it's not a huge number of people that might be connected to violent extremism or who might get radicalized, just a few individuals can actually represent a strong threat because of the training that they have had in the military, and also just a few people can actually really destroy the reputation of the Canadian Forces by just being associated with an extremist group," research manager Benjamin Ducol said.

Military leadership is acutely aware of that.

It's why Menard has this message to any extremists currently in CAF ranks:

"You have no place in the military," he says.

"We have zero tolerance for such behaviour for anything that is discriminatory in nature … and we will get you out of uniform if you don't correct your behaviour."