



GoogleFrog 19 months ago

In this update we've taken a look at the economy, with an eye to getting more players through the early game and into the midgame. Several problematic units have also been tweaked and there are some superweapon changes for large games FFA.



Economy Tweaks

Initial incomes are now higher, offset by lower starting resources.

Commander income +4 metal, +6 energy -> +8 metal and energy.

Start resources 400 -> 200. The change in income and resources approximately corresponds to a free Solar and two Mexes. This change should smooth the start of the game by creating a slightly more economic default start and by making the loss of an early mex less devastating. Further effects, such as the efficacy of Ravens, will require community experimentation.



Constructors no longer generate trickles of resources.

Everything in the factory tab now has 0.5 metal and energy income (up from 0.3).

All other constructors (besides the Commander) no longer generate resources. Previously, small constructors generated 0.15 metal and energy.

Constructor costs have mostly been reduced by 4 per buildpower to offset the economic disruption. Each unit of buildpower used to generate 4 metal and energy every 2 minutes and 13 seconds.

Here is the full list of cost changes. Some buffs or nerfs have occurred relative to the rule of 4 cost per buildpower.

Caretaker 220 -> 180

Conch 180 -> 150

Conjuror 140 -> 120

Constable 130 -> 120 (a relative nerf of 6)

Convict 140 -> 120

Crane 220 -> 200 (a relative buff of 4)

Quill 150 -> 130

Mariner 220 -> 200 (a relative nerf of 10)

Mason 140 -> 120

Wasp 300 -> 260 (a relative buff of 10)

Weaver 200 -> 170

Welder 230 -> 200 The change addresses FFA Conch spam, makes losing an early constructors a bit less game-ending, and should make factories such as Spider, Amph and Tank a little less awkward.



Balance



Conjuror

Cloak drain 0.5 moving 0.1 static -> completely free.

Scythe

Autorepair +20 after 10s -> +10 after 10s.

Kodachi

Autorepair +12 after 5s -> +10 after 10s.

Cyclops

Slowbeam damage 1500 -> 2000

Toad now has slightly better HP/cost than Gremlin, since it is slow and relatively short ranged.

Cost 550 -> 500

Health 1500 -> 2000

Hacksaw now reliably protects someone standing right next to it.

Range 430 -> 480

Projectile velocity 800 -> 600 (high velocity causes misses)

Projectile turn rate increased 22% (low turn rate also causes misses)

Burst delay 0.5s -> 0.2s.

LOS 500 -> 550

Cutter

No longer occasionally fails to move close enough to its target.

Seawolf

Can now fire (and successfully hit) in every direction.

Missed torpedoes no longer fly across the map (also applies to underwater Scallops).

Tweaked the costs of some Striders and Superweapons.

Paladin 10.5K -> 10K

Detriment 24K -> 20K

Zenith 30K -> 32K

Disco Rave Party 32K -> 36K

Fixed Detriment overkill prevention, it now only applies to its missiles.



Interface

Added an option 'Settings/HUD Panels/Command Panel/Selection Closes Tab' which sets whether selecting a construction option closes the construction tab.

Made units easier to click on by enlarging their mouse raytrace hitboxes.

Drop detection no longer automatically pauses, because the pause detection behaviour was broken.

Fixed performance issue while not looking at the sharing/scoreboard panel. The performance issue that is caused by looking at the sharing/scoreboard panel remains. In this update we've taken a look at the economy, with an eye to getting more players through the early game and into the midgame. Several problematic units have also been tweaked and there are some superweapon changes for large games FFA.Initial incomes are now higher, offset by lower starting resources.The change in income and resources approximately corresponds to a free Solar and two Mexes. This change should smooth the start of the game by creating a slightly more economic default start and by making the loss of an early mex less devastating. Further effects, such as the efficacy of Ravens, will require community experimentation.Constructors no longer generate trickles of resources.Here is the full list of cost changes. Some buffs or nerfs have occurred relative to the rule of 4 cost per buildpower.The change addresses FFA Conch spam, makes losing an early constructors a bit less game-ending, and should make factories such as Spider, Amph and Tank a little less awkward.ConjurorScytheKodachiCyclopsToad now has slightly better HP/cost than Gremlin, since it is slow and relatively short ranged.Hacksaw now reliably protects someone standing right next to it.CutterSeawolfTweaked the costs of some Striders and Superweapons.Fixed Detriment overkill prevention, it now only applies to its missiles. +9 / -0



raaar 19 months ago

(edited 19 months ago)



good

- more basic income

- removal of income from construction units

- more expensive superweapons (drp is crazy)

- buffs to toad and hacksaw (still niche though)

- detriment buff





bad

- making construction units cheaper other than wasp, crane and mason

- assigning all basic income to the commander



didn't expect so many changes. here's some opinioning:good- more basic income- removal of income from construction units- more expensive superweapons (drp is crazy)- buffs to toad and hacksaw (still niche though)- detriment buffbad- making construction units cheaper other than wasp, crane and mason- assigning all basic income to the commander +1 / -0





GoogleFrog 19 months ago quote:

assigning all basic income to the commander

We're stuck with it.

Everything must exist concretely as part of a unit.

The plopped factory is not meant to be unique.

Starting with more than one unit is ugly. We're stuck with it. +0 / -0



Steel_Blue 19 months ago A lot of cool things this patch. Cutter fix, no e cost on con cloak, a hacksaw fix(of which I use so little that I did not know it may have been a big problem) are things I would never ask for but I will appreciate. Kills the ultimate FFA strat of spamming conch balls that have a pop-up porc sidearm even if you own 0 mexes. I will miss my 700+ con balls, but my games will be more interesting and better for it(and my enemies will be less lag-ridden... Unless I still find flea useful). I hope that the overkill prevention fix on detriment solves the not firing at units sometimes which I frequently see in half-water cases. Toad is cheeper and needs 900m in bombers to snipe down, maybe people will diss it less. The economy change I'm not for, because I don't like change and I see it boosting economies in a huge way. Thanks! +0 / -0





Firepluk 19 months ago

(edited 19 months ago)

Finally "fixed" detriment, scythe bit weaker and hacksaw went from useless trash back to somewhat useful :O



Can't wait to test "com nap && cap" tactics, it's a zoo time!



Though I'm a bit worried about removing trickle income from cons - this was really great part of ZK and allowed for flexibility and very interesting comebacks in FFA games. This alone worths having this income. Can't be! Can it???!Finally "fixed" detriment, scythe bit weaker and hacksaw went from useless trash back to somewhat useful :OCan't wait to test "com nap && cap" tactics, it's a zoo time!Though I'm a bit worried about removing trickle income from cons - this was really great part of ZK and allowed for flexibility and very interesting comebacks in FFA games. This alone worths having this income. +0 / -0

psaniac 19 months ago Hacksaws Newtons like a Singu. So I guess commander is no longer a mobile caretaker anymore. Now the proper thing to do with a commander is to dig it deep in an underwater pit and surround it withNewtons like a Singu. +6 / -0

Wesley 19 months ago Just morph cloak on the com instead of terra tbh. +1 / -0



NorthChileanG 19 months ago No fast and agressive 1v1 starts anymore. +0 / -0





Firepluk 19 months ago

(edited 19 months ago)

after all it must be somewhat hazardous producing such high constant metal and energy output, isn't it?



[Spoiler]

compare to how much E you'd need to supply to say 3 average mexes u normally find at your average starting pos to get 8 m/s extra metal income...

should produce at least fusion/geo like boom





[Spoiler]

After this is implemented suicide jumpy com bombings will shine in a new bright light!

Allāhu akbar!

Now we just need to add -proper- explosions to dying coms :Pafter all it must be somewhat hazardous producing such high constant metal and energy output, isn't it? +5 / -0



o_o 19 months ago On that note, add commander modules that increase death explosion damage. +4 / -0





Firepluk 19 months ago

say 300m module that gives +0.3/+0.3 and increases explosion size and damage... yea, we need eco modules for coms...say 300m module that gives +0.3/+0.3 and increases explosion size and damage... +4 / -0



Steel_Blue 19 months ago I do not think any rush is slowed down too much by this. Especially that coms start with beamlazer now too. Unless you think the defender's metal income allows them to respond better to your rush. NorthChileanG I do not think any rush is slowed down too much by this. Especially that coms start with beamlazer now too. Unless you think the defender's metal income allows them to respond better to your rush. +0 / -0





Firepluk 19 months ago

(edited 19 months ago)

We had a icy run2 game and enemy shitted out a DETRIMENT out of nowhere lol., just because of this extra income from coms and reduced detri price ^^

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/690492



see, basically u gave EVERYONE in team ~1.5 extra mexes, from the 1st second of the battle...!

In 10v10 it's ~15 avg. extra mexes for team...

In 16v16 it's ~26 avg. extra mexes for team...

speedmetalish meta if not fixed, which is not necessary bad btw - more epic batles, faster mid/late game units...

but I'd seriously consider getting income down to +6/+6 so... after playing some big team games today - I can say games feel way more speedmetalish than they used to be when everyone had +4/+4 comsWe had a icy run2 game and enemy shitted out a DETRIMENT out of nowhere lol., just because of this extra income from coms and reduced detri price ^^see, basically u gave EVERYONE in team ~1.5 extra mexes, from the 1st second of the battle...!In 10v10 it's ~15 avg. extra mexes for team...In 16v16 it's ~26 avg. extra mexes for team...speedmetalish meta if not fixed, which is not necessary bad btw - more epic batles, faster mid/late game units...but I'd seriously consider getting income down to +6/+6 +0 / -0



DeinFreund 19 months ago This update reverted the hunter model :( +1 / -0

Topkack 19 months ago I think if anything, this makes cheaper units less relevant, which is bad. +4 / -0



Dregs 19 months ago Tanks are a more viable 1v1 plop v rovers now. Way more viable. +0 / -0





GoogleFrog 19 months ago quote:

see, basically u gave EVERYONE in team ~1.5 extra mexes, from the 1st second of the battle...!

In 10v10 it's ~15 avg. extra mexes for team...

In 16v16 it's ~26 avg. extra mexes for team...

speedmetalish meta if not fixed, which is not necessary bad btw - more epic batles, faster mid/late game units...

but I'd seriously consider getting income down to +6/+6

+6/+6 sounds ok. +6/+6 sounds ok. +1 / -1

psaniac 19 months ago



For what reason was this changed?

quote:



The change in income and resources approximately corresponds to a free Solar and two Mexes. This change should smooth the start of the game by creating a slightly more economic default start and by making the loss of an early mex less devastating.

quote:

This came from a few discussions about making the start of the game smoother.

As you can clearly see, this discussion appers to be extremely 1v1 oriented.

quote:

smoother start

Does that mean faster start? Why? I have never felt a need for this. And I see no reasons given for why "smoother starts" should be considered a good thing. So effectively, no reasons have been given for making this massive change.





Also, , please explain to us why there haven't been any chages to Big Bertha. Please. I find it really remarkable how in Zero-K, the game and the playerbase can somehow cope with even such massive changes to almost-core gameplay mechanics and not break.For what reason was this changed?As you can clearly see, this discussion appers to be1v1 oriented.Does that mean faster start? Why? I have never felt a need for this. And I see no reasons given for why "smoother starts" should be considered a good thing. So effectively, no reasons have been given for making this massive change.Also, GoogleFrog , please explain to us why there haven't been any chages to Big Bertha. Please. +3 / -0