psijaka

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EDIT - this thread is a victim of it's own success and I have broken photobucket's 10GB/month bandwidth limit (on 12 Dec lol). To get around this I am transferring the OP images to Imageshack. Other images will stay on Photobucket, and should reappear 1st Jan 2012. Please be patient.



As in my Black Ops plots, the plots are the result of simulating the firing of 100 ten round bursts.



Rounds 1-3 are in green (the first round is always assumed to be on target). Rounds 4-10 are in blue.



Kick is assumed to reduce Viewkick by 20%



Selected RF plots have been added, but only where testing has verified the rate of fire increase (thanks for your work on this, fred).



Attachments will be added as solid data becomes available. Please be patient!



Note for Wii players - falufa has discovered that the guns fire at a different rate on the Wii; this will have an impact upon the recoil plots.

For more info see



Important - Please refer to this excellent thread about the effects of GunKick and variations in how Viewkick is handled, as it may have an impact upon the accuracy of the recoil plots.



I'm afraid that I am NOT going to be updating the plots though. I don't think that the overall effect will be great, and I haven't played COD since Dec 2011!



Automatic Rifles

[/img]





MK14 plots at different fire rates can be found half way down page 3 of this thread.

































RIP Black Ops Skorpion





The following chart shows the percentage of 2nd, 3rd and 4th shots that take place when the gun has fully recovered from the kick of the previous round, based upon simulation of 10,000 three round bursts. More to come.





Viewkick, Centerspeed and ROF info from

(thanks to verccety), and

(thanks to selarmor)



Method:



I have assumed that recoil is handled in exactly the same way as in Black Ops (a BIG assumption), as follows:



The calculations assume that viewkick is a velocity applied to the gun, and that centerspeed is acceleration applied to the gun to return to the starting point.



I have assumed that recoil occurs as a random linear distribution between the limits for vertical and horizontal kick as published in the links above.



The centerspeed figure is applied to this distribution; recentering occurring when kick <= centerspeed / 5 x fire time. The recentering is applied to the vertical and horizontal kick separately (there has been some discussion about this on this forum).



I have also assumed zero weapon sway at this stage.



Further Reading:

- asasa's "How exactly does centerspeed work?" thread, where the theory is discussed in detail.

- fred's rate of fire test results (includes test results from other bros)

- wwa's burst fire recoil screen shots.

- TheUser's recoil screenshots on the MW3 forum.

- psijaka's Black Ops Recoil Chart and Plots



EDIT

01 Feb 2012 - link to wwa's burst fire recoil screenshots added

24 Jan 2012 - link to falufa's Wii ROF results added; these are on page 8 of this thread

07 Jan 2012 - Warning about different rof on the Wii added - thanks falufa

31 Dec 2011 - AR shots on target chart added.

30 Dec 2011 - MP7 RF plot added, based upon fred's figure of a 9% increase.

12 Dec 2011 - nightmare; exceeded photobucket's 10GB/month limit. OP images transferred to imageshack.

08 Dec 2011 - selected RF plots added LMGs, MP5, P90 all at +25%.

03 Dec 2011 - RF plots removed due to variable rate of fire increase.

02 Dec 2011 - Minor title changes, warning about RF, MPs + grip added

25 Nov 2011 - New versions of all plots agged to tidy up format and make gridlines less intrusive. ARs +/- kick, LMGs +/- kick, SMGs +/- RF +/- kick, MPs

24 Nov 2011 - SMGs + Kick, RF + Kick completed

24 Nov 2011 - ARs + Kick added, SMGs + Kick completed

24 Nov 2011 - Started adding attachments, Kick; ACR kick, PP90,P90,MP7 RF & RF Kick, MP7 Kick

17 Nov 2011 - Corrected AK47, PP90 plots uploaded

17 Nov 2011 - Uploaded new versions of all plots (nobody noticed my deliberate mistake lol)

As in my Black Ops plots, the plots are the result of simulating the firing of 100 ten round bursts.Rounds 1-3 are in green (the first round is always assumed to be on target). Rounds 4-10 are in blue.Kick is assumed to reduce Viewkick by 20%Selected RF plots have been added, but only where testing has verified the rate of fire increase (thanks for your work on this, fred).Attachments will be added as solid data becomes available. Please be patient!- falufa has discovered that the guns fire at a different rate on the Wii; this will have an impact upon the recoil plots.For more info see denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3256&page=8 - Please refer to this excellent thread about the effects of GunKick and variations in how Viewkick is handled, as it may have an impact upon the accuracy of the recoil plots. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4708&page=1 I'm afraid that I amgoing to be updating the plots though. I don't think that the overall effect will be great, and I haven't played COD since Dec 2011!Automatic Rifles img403.imageshack.us/img403/6946/mw3aracrv2a.png [/img]MK14 plots at different fire rates can be found half way down page 3 of this thread.RIP Black Ops SkorpionThe following chart shows the percentage of 2nd, 3rd and 4th shots that take place when the gun has fully recovered from the kick of the previous round, based upon simulation of 10,000 three round bursts. More to come.Viewkick, Centerspeed and ROF info from denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3239 (thanks to verccety), and denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3235 (thanks to selarmor)I have assumed that recoil is handled in exactly the same way as in Black Ops (a BIG assumption), as follows:The calculations assume that viewkick is a velocity applied to the gun, and that centerspeed is acceleration applied to the gun to return to the starting point.I have assumed that recoil occurs as a random linear distribution between the limits for vertical and horizontal kick as published in the links above.The centerspeed figure is applied to this distribution; recentering occurring when kick <= centerspeed / 5 x fire time. The recentering is applied to the vertical and horizontal kick separately (there has been some discussion about this on this forum).I have also assumed zero weapon sway at this stage. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2461 - asasa's "How exactly does centerspeed work?" thread, where the theory is discussed in detail. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3425 - fred's rate of fire test results (includes test results from other bros) denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3956&page=1 - wwa's burst fire recoil screen shots. www.modernwarfare3forum.com/topic/15751-theusers-recoil-pattern-series-assault-rifles/ - TheUser's recoil screenshots on the MW3 forum. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2699 - psijaka's Black Ops Recoil Chart and Plots

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Member Back to Top Post by arcanine2009 on G36's recoil is interesting indeed.. Mainly shoots straight up. Shouldn't be too surprised I guess, since it goes 75 up and 35 left/right/down. Makes me wonder if grip is necessary, since its pretty predictable at least.

-Overall all the ARs(minus the CM) look pretty good



-Ouch at LMGs, minus MK56 and SAW. I'm very interested in seeing the recoil charts w/ grip and kick attachment on them (and possibly every weapon also)



-lol at MP7.





-/= at skorpion. IW totally screwed with this weapon. Recoil, damage, everything.

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Member Back to Top Post by bamblakopz on Man, no wonder I LOVE the MP7. The Best recoil for any SMG in COD. It's just plain awesome!

Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil.

Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target.



It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much.



Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the SCAR has a better recoil pattern.

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Member Back to Top Post by psijaka on bamblakopz said:

Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil.

Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target.



It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much.



Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the ACR has a better recoil pattern. Man, no wonder I LOVE the MP7. The Best recoil for any SMG in COD. It's just plain awesome!Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil.Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target.It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much.Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the ACR has a better recoil pattern.

Thanks for the feedback.



The ACR flatters to deceive. The actual kick doesn't look that bad, but is consistently upwards so the gun will ALWAYS pull off target (according to my calculations).



Is this how the gun behaves in practice? Thanks for the feedback.The ACR flatters to deceive. The actual kick doesn't look that bad, but is consistently upwards so the gun will ALWAYS pull off target (according to my calculations).Is this how the gun behaves in practice?

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Member Back to Top Post by psijaka on eLantern said: So what's up with the M16... what does it mean when there isn't any indication of shots 4 - 10?

The information I have from 3 different sources is that the M16 fires a 3 round burst.



I have conflicting information about the Type 95; is this a burst fire weapon as well? If so, I'll modify the plot to exclude the blue shots 4-10. The information I have from 3 different sources is that the M16 fires a 3 round burst.I have conflicting information about the Type 95; is this a burst fire weapon as well? If so, I'll modify the plot to exclude the blue shots 4-10.

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Member Back to Top Post by bamblakopz on psijaka said: bamblakopz said:

Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil.

Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target.



It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much.



Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the ACR has a better recoil pattern. Man, no wonder I LOVE the MP7. The Best recoil for any SMG in COD. It's just plain awesome!Also, at 1000rpm, the FAD has very impressive recoil.Usually, the higher the fire-rate, the more that baby will kick. But it still retains a solid recoil pattern and should stay on target.It's great to see how I've fallen in love with those two guns, and THEN I learn about the stats and see why I love them so much.Also, ACR isn't as OP with recoil as assumed? Still think the ACR has a better recoil pattern.

Thanks for the feedback.



The ACR flatters to deceive. The actual kick doesn't look that bad, but is consistently upwards so the gun will ALWAYS pull off target (according to my calculations).



Is this how the gun behaves in practice? Thanks for the feedback.The ACR flatters to deceive. The actual kick doesn't look that bad, but is consistently upwards so the gun will ALWAYS pull off target (according to my calculations).Is this how the gun behaves in practice?



Yea, I've used the ACR a LOT. Mainly because the stats for the ACR are so good, so I wanted to get used to it. But it does seem, although the gun is powerful, that it IS slightly less accurate then people assume it is. It's no longer the OP laser gun that it was for MW2.

I think the SCAR has more manageable recoil. The ACR is still a fantastic gun though. Yea, I've used the ACR a LOT. Mainly because the stats for the ACR are so good, so I wanted to get used to it. But it does seem, although the gun is powerful, that it IS slightly less accurate then people assume it is. It's no longer the OP laser gun that it was for MW2.I think the SCAR has more manageable recoil. The ACR is still a fantastic gun though.

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Member Back to Top Post by psijaka on kingstyles said: The mp7 recoil is what it shows exactly. I am surprised at the acr. I thought it was better than this. I will have to look at the g36 I guess.



rejectionrole said:



Really surprised at the ACR. Looks like I may have to try some of the other ARs more. I'm surprised the AK47 looks so precise, it's visual recoil is absoFoxtrottinglutely terrible. For the record, I've used the MP7 a lot and it definitely follows that recoil pattern. I usually use it with Attachments proficiency (so no Kick) and Rapid Fire (so strong recoil) and it always pulls 100% straight up. It's a beast and a headshot machine.Really surprised at the ACR. Looks like I may have to try some of the other ARs more. I'm surprised the AK47 looks so precise, it's visual recoil is absoFoxtrottinglutely terrible.



Thanks for the feedback; gives me some reassurance that I am on the right track. Thanks for the feedback; gives me some reassurance that I am on the right track.

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Member Back to Top Post by eLantern on psijaka said: eLantern said: So what's up with the M16... what does it mean when there isn't any indication of shots 4 - 10?

The information I have from 3 different sources is that the M16 fires a 3 round burst.



I have conflicting information about the Type 95; is this a burst fire weapon as well? If so, I'll modify the plot to exclude the blue shots 4-10. The information I have from 3 different sources is that the M16 fires a 3 round burst.I have conflicting information about the Type 95; is this a burst fire weapon as well? If so, I'll modify the plot to exclude the blue shots 4-10.



Yes, the Type95 is a 3-round burst. Yes, the Type95 is a 3-round burst.

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Member Back to Top Post by neverlast74 on @ OP - thanks a lot.

I am suprised that the ACR looks less accurate than the m4.



pp90 and ump picture I would say correlate with my non-scientific "feeling".



ak47 has blue dots left and right on the x-axis, so if they are on top/overlays, we might not know how many dots of them are there . Which makes this gun questionable as people are taller than they are broad. From this G36 with an upside climb can easier be compensated than side kicks. Although there is lag and people are moving but then it becomes a hazardous game style fighting lag with inaccurate weapons.



Question- there are no blue dots in the m16 but the type95 has some - any reason why?



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Member Back to Top Post by psijaka on neverlast74 said:

I am suprised that the ACR looks less accurate than the m4.



pp90 and ump picture I would say correlate with my non-scientific "feeling".



ak47 has blue dots left and right on the x-axis, so if they are on top/overlays, we might not know how many dots of them are there . Which makes this gun questionable as people are taller than they are broad. From this G36 with an upside climb can easier be compensated than side kicks. Although there is lag and people are moving but then it becomes a hazardous game style fighting lag with inaccurate weapons.



Question- there are no blue dots in the m16 but the type95 has some - any reason why?

@ OP - thanks a lot.I am suprised that the ACR looks less accurate than the m4.pp90 and ump picture I would say correlate with my non-scientific "feeling".ak47 has blue dots left and right on the x-axis, so if they are on top/overlays, we might not know how many dots of them are there . Which makes this gun questionable as people are taller than they are broad. From this G36 with an upside climb can easier be compensated than side kicks. Although there is lag and people are moving but then it becomes a hazardous game style fighting lag with inaccurate weapons.Question- there are no blue dots in the m16 but the type95 has some - any reason why?



Thanks for the feedback.



My bad about the Type 95; I had conflicting info on this gun. Will correct. Thanks for the feedback.My bad about the Type 95; I had conflicting info on this gun. Will correct.

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Member Back to Top Post by neverlast74 on



img832.imageshack.us/img832/1507/m4vsacr.jpg

left the m4 - right the acr this is PC version.30 bullets with ~3 bullets burts then 0,5sec pause and again. I did not fight sway and to me it felt acr is slower other than that THIS looks very much the same.



what I realized is that the m4 has more sway than the acr. I question how the sway plays into this - is the pattern I see up there in psijakas pics clean of sway or not?left the m4 - right the acr this is PC version.30 bullets with ~3 bullets burts then 0,5sec pause and again. I did not fight sway and to me it felt acr is slower other than that THIS looks very much the same.what I realized is that the m4 has more sway than the acr.

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Member Back to Top Post by rejectionrole on



May have to try out the FAD... never used it at the end of my first playthrough, so maybe once I get back to 78 I'll try it again. I think people would bitch a lot more than they already do if Type 95 was full auto with a max damage of 55 per shot, lol.May have to try out the FAD... never used it at the end of my first playthrough, so maybe once I get back to 78 I'll try it again.

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Member Back to Top Post by psijaka on neverlast74 said:



img832.imageshack.us/img832/1507/m4vsacr.jpg

left the m4 - right the acr this is PC version.30 bullets with ~3 bullets burts then 0,5sec pause and again. I did not fight sway and to me it felt acr is slower other than that THIS looks very much the same.



what I realized is that the m4 has more sway than the acr. I question how the sway plays into this - is the pattern I see up there in psijakas pics clean of sway or not?left the m4 - right the acr this is PC version.30 bullets with ~3 bullets burts then 0,5sec pause and again. I did not fight sway and to me it felt acr is slower other than that THIS looks very much the same.what I realized is that the m4 has more sway than the acr.

Sway is not included in these plots at this stage. Early days yet. Sway is not included in these plots at this stage. Early days yet.

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Member Back to Top Post by ninja on



G36c: Feels different if I'm using the iron sight, but that's because it obscures a lot of the area around it. A sight deals with the issue, and in my opinion it's a monster with an ACOG.



L86: Has a hell of a lot of visual kick, but it's only the weapon model on screen. Used it with an ACOG and despite the fact you can see the dot freaking out like it's on LSD it's surprisingly accurate.



MP7: Hilariously accurate.



M60: Horrendous. I really wanted to use a prestige token on it, but it's still disgusting with Kick and a Grip. Too much sway means that anything beyond a burst goes everywhere, and that's not what I'm using an LMG for.



FAD: Given that it's pretty much the noob cannon of this game, on par with something like the PPSh41 from WaW in my eyes (compared to the rest of it's class) it's a beast. It's main problem is the iron sight, but it's still unique enough that it warrants a look from everyone.



Any information on a chart for the Mk14, or is that laughable given that it's semi automatic? I know I love it in either case My main weapons out of that list seem to line up with what I'm seeing.G36c: Feels different if I'm using the iron sight, but that's because it obscures a lot of the area around it. A sight deals with the issue, and in my opinion it's a monster with an ACOG.L86: Has a hell of a lot of visual kick, but it's only the weapon model on screen. Used it with an ACOG and despite the fact you can see the dot freaking out like it's on LSD it's surprisingly accurate.MP7: Hilariously accurate.M60: Horrendous. I really wanted to use a prestige token on it, but it's still disgusting with Kick and a Grip. Too much sway means that anything beyond a burst goes everywhere, and that's not what I'm using an LMG for.FAD: Given that it's pretty much the noob cannon of this game, on par with something like the PPSh41 from WaW in my eyes (compared to the rest of it's class) it's a beast. It's main problem is the iron sight, but it's still unique enough that it warrants a look from everyone.Any information on a chart for the Mk14, or is that laughable given that it's semi automatic? I know I love it in either case

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Member Back to Top Post by psijaka on



I always hesitate to post recoil scatter plots of semi auto guns because they would only be valid if someone were to fire at EXACTLY the right speed; not possible in practice.



Or am I being naive? re the MK14I always hesitate to post recoil scatter plots of semi auto guns because they would only be valid if someone were to fire at EXACTLY the right speed; not possible in practice.Or am I being naive?

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Member Back to Top Post by bobo on Is "visual kick" in this game? I'm a noob to the COD science, but is the term visual kick refering to how it looks like the gun is kicking, but not exactly how the recoil is acting? For example, seems the Blops AK47 just had an upward recoil from your view, yet the bullets sprayed all over.



So if I'm understanding all this correctly (probably not lol), I'm wondering if there's guns that look like they are recoiling different than they actually are.

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Member Back to Top Post by rejectionrole on The AK47 still has terrible visual recoil, despite the scatter plot showing it as being surprisingly accurate. It's just the animation of the gun itself kicking up and down. While it doesn't have an effect on where the shots actually land, it makes it look like your gun is flying way off target, which is disorienting and can make it hard to track your targets.



EDIT: It seems to me like the G36C is the gun to beat in terms of full-auto ARs. Second best TTK up close (only bested by the M4A1 by a measly 2 milliseconds, which is trivial), and the single best TTK at range, even besting the FAD by ~6 ms.



That being said, of course, the FAD has a 50 ms faster ADS time, which instantly gives it the best TTK of the full-autos at both close and long range if you assume you snap to ADS before you fire. Unfortunately, Quickdraw and Stalker both mess with that concept.

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Member Back to Top Post by kingstyles on Wow, I just tested the acr, fad, and the g36 against a wall at medium range. Your charts are dead on.

The g36 stays in a straight line. Sometimes the recoil makes the whole cluster not climb and other times it climes quite a bit.



The Acr when bursted dosent rise but moves left and right like the green. When held down it climbs in a z pattern up which in enough clips in the same spot would fill it in like the blue part.



The fad climbs as much in my testing as the g36 but the cluster is fatter like yours shows. It is also more random on which way it is going too bounce.



These were all tested ads whithout kick or anything else to help compernsate there recoil.