bhfberserk Profile Joined August 2011 Canada 390 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 02:51:05 #1 Now that more people have gotten BETA, I would like to start a proper discussion on this matter. So we are not just arguing for the sake of getting into BETA.

For those you know that for the first wave of invite is base on top 20% MMR. Many of us have check ranking site such a rankedftw.com but in short,



Top 20% Rank does not equal to Top 20% MMR.



I understand that Rank favors you if you keep playing as the MMR system gives you a 50/50 win rate (roughly) and winning games gives you more points than losing. So naturally if you keep playing, you will climb up the ladder. (This is not necessarily a bad thing as it encourage players to play.)



While it is not 100% confirm, but it seems this can creates rare scenario where a Diamond player can have a lower MMR than a Platinum player, as Rank does not reflect MMR completely.



Ladder being a competitive place, I wish they can be more transparent and even show a graph climbing up the MMR ladder would be really awesome. If Top20% rank is meaningless in their system, then it is really discouraging to even play as you are not really getting better but just climbing up in their meaningless rank.



TLDR: Top 20% in Rank does not equal to Top 20% MMR, do you also wish to see more transparency and more Ladder Data.



DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts #2 Blizzard doesn't trust us with MMR. They think seeing a number may hurt our feelings too much.



I honestly just wish they did what Dota 2 does and give you a number. It would make things a lot more transparent. But this is a topic that's been brought up numerous times and I don't think they care to listen. "Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 02:39:13 #3 I think there should be a single huge ranking for everyone on the server.



Not having demotions is weird. Needing only to be active to stay in GM is weird. Not knowing your rank on the server, even if you're in GM (since better players could be stuck in Masters), is weird. Divisions have proven to not be significant. People look at their division ranking to eyeball whether they're "high" "low" or "mid" for their league. Leagues are just shortcuts for saying what percentile bracket you're in. Keep those labels in but have them be clearly on top of a fluid and simple ranking of everyone on the server.



People playing SC2 ranked 1v1 are seeking a competitive experience. Just to be playing SC2 in the first place instead of some alternatives already selects a certain kind of gamer. And then to spend time playing ranked 1v1 makes an even stronger selection for a certain kind of gamer. It's exasperating how weird the ladder system is for a niche competitive game. I get the attempt in 2010 but they can't just pretend it's the same situation and none of this shit should be changed to reflect the current state of the game. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts #4 Basically, everything nony said. "Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

SecretSnail Profile Joined March 2014 France 12 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 04:48:06 #5 Yup, NonY is right.



But blizzard doesn't care, or atleast didn't (let's hope we get a better ranking system for lotv).



Warcraft III ranking system and design were way better.



I put my coins on Project Atlas anyway. I am the great Jack.

hefa Profile Joined June 2012 Finland 21 Posts #6 I don't understan why we dont have multiple ladders. Some would have the raw mmr visible other maybe not. To play you should be able to select which ladder you want to play. You could even have closed ladders for teams and other groups.



1. pro players would naturally end up in the same competitive ladder. Hosted by blizzard or some other entity (TL?)

2. There would still be default ladder for casuals.

3. You could have different setting for different ladders. this would include mmr visibility, mmr decay, win/loss reward settings, custom badges?, maybe even custom rules with mods?

SCguineapig Profile Blog Joined January 2013 Netherlands 289 Posts #7 I've just been invited despite barely playing sc2 anymore, I now feel ashamed as I got the beta 5 days ago and still haven't installed it.

I'm not deserving of a beta. broodwar wasn't perfect

flipstar Profile Joined January 2011 226 Posts #8 It feels pretty pointless to play the beta, tbh. No real ladder sucks & ping is bad for most euros.





And for OP, yes, I agree, coupled with Nony's post. I'm competitive - Let me know my real rank.

Liquid`TLO Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Germany 754 Posts #9 On May 25 2015 11:38 NonY wrote:

I think there should be a single huge ranking for everyone on the server.



Not having demotions is weird. Needing only to be active to stay in GM is weird. Not knowing your rank on the server, even if you're in GM (since better players could be stuck in Masters), is weird. Divisions have proven to not be significant. People look at their division ranking to eyeball whether they're "high" "low" or "mid" for their league. Leagues are just shortcuts for saying what percentile bracket you're in. Keep those labels in but have them be clearly on top of a fluid and simple ranking of everyone on the server.



People playing SC2 ranked 1v1 are seeking a competitive experience. Just to be playing SC2 in the first place instead of some alternatives already selects a certain kind of gamer. And then to spend time playing ranked 1v1 makes an even stronger selection for a certain kind of gamer. It's exasperating how weird the ladder system is for a niche competitive game. I get the attempt in 2010 but they can't just pretend it's the same situation and none of this shit should be changed to reflect the current state of the game.



It's nothing but an artifact of a completely failed battlenet launch that should have been revamped years ago.

It's completely ridiculous that the ladder still is as shitty as it is after 5 years of sc2. It's nothing but an artifact of a completely failed battlenet launch that should have been revamped years ago.It's completely ridiculous that the ladder still is as shitty as it is after 5 years of sc2. Team Liquid alea iacta est

Hider Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Denmark 8554 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 08:46:33 #10 Not having demotions is weird.



Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???



It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game. Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game. Innovation was a better player in 2013 than Byun in 2016.

Dingodile Profile Joined December 2011 4035 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 09:23:03 #11 On May 25 2015 17:44 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not having demotions is weird.



Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???



It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game. Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game.

wow never thought that "no demotions" can solve ladder anxiety. I do have ladder anxiety, but because the history is open to everyone, everyone can see my build order, game lenght, opponents etc of my last ~30 games. This is the reason why we have so many barcodes!



Even Facebook is better than bnet 0.2, Facebook do offer informations only to "me" oder friends". wow never thought that "no demotions" can solve ladder anxiety. I do have ladder anxiety, but because the history is open to everyone, everyone can see my build order, game lenght, opponents etc of my last ~30 games. This is the reason why we have so many barcodes!Even Facebook is better than bnet 0.2, Facebook do offer informations only to "me" oder friends". Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10251 Posts #12 I got excited, thought we had Ladder on LOTV for a moment, does anyone know why it says the version is incorrect when I try to play LOTV? AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

KingAlphard Profile Blog Joined August 2012 Italy 1704 Posts #13 On May 25 2015 18:22 Dingodile wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 25 2015 17:44 Hider wrote:

Not having demotions is weird.



Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???



It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game. Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game.

wow never thought that "no demotions" can solve ladder anxiety. I do have ladder anxiety, but because the history is open to everyone, everyone can see my build order, game lenght, opponents etc of my last ~30 games. This is the reason why we have so many barcodes!



Even Facebook is better than bnet 0.2, Facebook do offer informations only to "me" oder friends". wow never thought that "no demotions" can solve ladder anxiety. I do have ladder anxiety, but because the history is open to everyone, everyone can see my build order, game lenght, opponents etc of my last ~30 games. This is the reason why we have so many barcodes!Even Facebook is better than bnet 0.2, Facebook do offer informations only to "me" oder friends".



So you mean that it's a problem for gold leaguers (=average players) that people check their match history to find out their "strategies"? Or I don't get what you're trying to say. So you mean that it's a problem for gold leaguers (=average players) that people check their match history to find out their "strategies"? Or I don't get what you're trying to say. hots/lotv gm protoss - tesgaming.com

Dingodile Profile Joined December 2011 4035 Posts #14 On May 25 2015 19:23 KingAlphard wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 25 2015 18:22 Dingodile wrote:

On May 25 2015 17:44 Hider wrote:

Not having demotions is weird.



Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???



It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game. Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???It's no surprise that League has a similar system as the fear of failing often can outweight potential gains leading to players not playing the game.

wow never thought that "no demotions" can solve ladder anxiety. I do have ladder anxiety, but because the history is open to everyone, everyone can see my build order, game lenght, opponents etc of my last ~30 games. This is the reason why we have so many barcodes!



Even Facebook is better than bnet 0.2, Facebook do offer informations only to "me" oder friends". wow never thought that "no demotions" can solve ladder anxiety. I do have ladder anxiety, but because the history is open to everyone, everyone can see my build order, game lenght, opponents etc of my last ~30 games. This is the reason why we have so many barcodes!Even Facebook is better than bnet 0.2, Facebook do offer informations only to "me" oder friends".



So you mean that it's a problem for gold leaguers (=average players) that people check their match history to find out their "strategies"? Or I don't get what you're trying to say. So you mean that it's a problem for gold leaguers (=average players) that people check their match history to find out their "strategies"? Or I don't get what you're trying to say.

It is a general problem. Everyone check what other people are doing and if there aren't enough (new) informations they are crying (facebook is an excellent example). THIS has to stop, stop give too much interests what other are doing. I always feel they spend more time to look what other are doing than you with your own stuff.



Doesn't matter which league you are or how emotional your are about your hobbies. It is a general problem. Everyone check what other people are doing and if there aren't enough (new) informations they are crying (facebook is an excellent example). THIS has to stop, stop give too much interests what other are doing. I always feel they spend more time to look what other are doing than you with your own stuff.Doesn't matter which league you are or how emotional your are about your hobbies. Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky

StarStruck Profile Joined April 2010 24095 Posts #15 On May 25 2015 17:25 Liquid`TLO wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 25 2015 11:38 NonY wrote:

I think there should be a single huge ranking for everyone on the server.



Not having demotions is weird. Needing only to be active to stay in GM is weird. Not knowing your rank on the server, even if you're in GM (since better players could be stuck in Masters), is weird. Divisions have proven to not be significant. People look at their division ranking to eyeball whether they're "high" "low" or "mid" for their league. Leagues are just shortcuts for saying what percentile bracket you're in. Keep those labels in but have them be clearly on top of a fluid and simple ranking of everyone on the server.



People playing SC2 ranked 1v1 are seeking a competitive experience. Just to be playing SC2 in the first place instead of some alternatives already selects a certain kind of gamer. And then to spend time playing ranked 1v1 makes an even stronger selection for a certain kind of gamer. It's exasperating how weird the ladder system is for a niche competitive game. I get the attempt in 2010 but they can't just pretend it's the same situation and none of this shit should be changed to reflect the current state of the game.



It's nothing but an artifact of a completely failed battlenet launch that should have been revamped years ago.

It's completely ridiculous that the ladder still is as shitty as it is after 5 years of sc2. It's nothing but an artifact of a completely failed battlenet launch that should have been revamped years ago.It's completely ridiculous that the ladder still is as shitty as it is after 5 years of sc2.



They haven't changed much company wise since then either so what did you honestly expect? They're the Hamlet of the gaming world. They haven't changed much company wise since then either so what did you honestly expect? They're the Hamlet of the gaming world.

rockslave Profile Blog Joined January 2008 Brazil 318 Posts #16 On May 25 2015 17:44 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not having demotions is weird.



Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now??? Years ago everyone complained about ladder anxiety. Where are they now???



Playing LoL. I would guess most people who play today would like a number.



Unfortunately, a poll at TL wouldn't be very useful because of the gigantic sampling bias towards competitiveness. Playing LoL. I would guess most people who play today would like a number.Unfortunately, a poll at TL wouldn't be very useful because of the gigantic sampling bias towards competitiveness. What qxc said.

intotheheart Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Canada 16855 Posts #17 Is there any word in LotV about changing the ladder system with launch? If they're interested in having a long beta, it wouldn't hurt to place one of those. kiss kiss fall in love

Musicus Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 23392 Posts #18 The ladder system just sucks man, I really hope they rework it for LotV. They could've just used the wc3 system and many other things from the wc3 bnet and everyone would be happy. Maru and Serral are probably top 5.

bhfberserk Profile Joined August 2011 Canada 390 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 14:25:23 #19



Currently, I think this:

1) Climbing up you division in rank is meaningless. Getting a shiny star for top 8 finish is not really interesting and motivating. (Ok, this is an emotional since everyone is different. But I never see a single post on reddit of someone posting. "Top 8 finish, season 1 2015! SWAG!"

2) Promotion is great. It is a rough mark of your skill level. You do see people grind for 3-4 years and finally made a promotion. This is working as intended. People congrats you on the forum.

3) Does the current system help with ladder anxiety? I think it does not. 1v1 is not a friendly place. It is lonely, it feels empty. You either keep playing or you abandoned the game long ago.

4) Really exciting to have automated tournament. I think it will help a lot to make the laddering exciting again. Really want to hear more ideas from Blizzard on this.

5) Do you care the people that are in your division? It is meaningless beating them.



Ideas:

Basically what Nony said, and maybe more other stuff...



1) Make the league base on true MMR! So you can truly be proud when you get that promotion and it reflects on your awesomeness.

Top 200 in the world = Grand Master

Top 2% = Master

Top 10% = Diamond

Top 20% = Platinum

......etc



2) Give awesome rewards for climbing the ladder. Give you the CE Thor model. Give you a seasonal portrait. If you finish top 1 for 5 seasons in a row, give you a G5L portrait. Do something cool here! Give you a picture of Nestea reward. Be more generous and creative on this!



3) Have team ladder. You and your friends or clan can climb the ladder. It can be total points/#players. So you can kick inactive members out of the clan. Again, it should reward you with awesome ingame model, so you and your friends can work really hard for it.



.... There are so many ideas we can think of as a community, but I think the first step is to hear what Blizzard is really thinking on this matter or what plans they have in store for us.



I dig up the Top 20% Q/A on Reddit back when this topic was first discussed. I think Blizzard do listen and read a lot of feedbacks. So I am hopeful they will make ladder awesome again.



http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/358ef0/top_20_beta_invites_update_forums/cr22rmp



I don't know what is consider "emotional response" or super analytical feedback. So I am not sure how to even give feedback to Blizzard. We don't really know what are the in-house thoughts on this or what they planned the current laddering system to accomplish. It would be amazing to hear if they discussed about a new ladder system.Currently, I think this:1) Climbing up you division in rank is meaningless. Getting a shiny star for top 8 finish is not really interesting and motivating. (Ok, this is an emotional since everyone is different. But I never see a single post on reddit of someone posting. "Top 8 finish, season 1 2015! SWAG!"2) Promotion is great. It is a rough mark of your skill level. You do see people grind for 3-4 years and finally made a promotion. This is working as intended. People congrats you on the forum.3) Does the current system help with ladder anxiety? I think it does not. 1v1 is not a friendly place. It is lonely, it feels empty. You either keep playing or you abandoned the game long ago.4) Really exciting to have automated tournament. I think it will help a lot to make the laddering exciting again. Really want to hear more ideas from Blizzard on this.5) Do you care the people that are in your division? It is meaningless beating them.Ideas:Basically what Nony said, and maybe more other stuff...1) Make the league base on true MMR! So you can truly be proud when you get that promotion and it reflects on your awesomeness.Top 200 in the world = Grand MasterTop 2% = MasterTop 10% = DiamondTop 20% = Platinum......etc2) Give awesome rewards for climbing the ladder. Give you the CE Thor model. Give you a seasonal portrait. If you finish top 1 for 5 seasons in a row, give you a G5L portrait. Do something cool here! Give you a picture of Nestea reward. Be more generous and creative on this!3) Have team ladder. You and your friends or clan can climb the ladder. It can be total points/#players. So you can kick inactive members out of the clan. Again, it should reward you with awesome ingame model, so you and your friends can work really hard for it..... There are so many ideas we can think of as a community, but I think the first step is to hear what Blizzard is really thinking on this matter or what plans they have in store for us.I dig up the Top 20% Q/A on Reddit back when this topic was first discussed. I think Blizzard do listen and read a lot of feedbacks. So I am hopeful they will make ladder awesome again. Without any way to check out own MMR, how would we be able to know if we will get in or not? For scenario like this, it actually makes me think it is a good idea Blizzard to have MMR rating for players to look at on ladder. If MMR really can be higher than someone in a high league than you, then this really defeats the whole purpose of laddering. Is there data really showing that this is the case?

I think everyone is really eager to get into BETA and more transparency would really help. Again, thank you for responding here on Reddit!



This is part of a bigger discussion that I don't think I'm prepared to fully address. I do want to say I see the concerns about the transparency piece and am sharing that with the team.

Also, there will be lots of chances to get into beta as we continue to expand the testing environment. =)





fenix404 Profile Joined May 2011 United States 305 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-25 14:20:26 #20 seriously, though, why is it that dota basically considered the numbered, visible MMR to be essential, yet for some reason blizzard thinks we shouldn't have it? years leater even?



5 years of this is indeed way too long, and blizzard's silence on the matter is another testament to the fact that this game simply doesnt give them the kind of income they have come to expect from their titles, simply because of WoW. free to play with skins, announcers, and other aesthetics is looking better and better.



on my sticky notes of video game ideas i have " *** starcraft clone" because i basically feel an indie developer could do better than what they are doing right now. look at starbow or even the fact that the double harvesting idea even came about. people that play this game care more about its quality than blizzard ever could. that much is clear. even the simple part of reading the forums and actually having a real discourse with the small pocket of people that still passionately love this game and want it to be the very best it can be. they give us vague marketing speech so much so that we all use soon tm everywhere.



i can't believe that they don't have the resources to speak to us regularly and plainly. instead we get dragged around with a carrot on a stick. 6 months after LotV comes out, will we all be confirming that SC2 had died before HotS and is now buried deep beneath Brood War? i watched the sonic starleague last night and it was great to see pros like effort still playing BW.



and then they tell us top %20, and had to come back and clarify and remind us that we can't even see our MMR. EVER.



why? who at blizzard is even responsible/would lose out/would get in trouble over us knowing exactly where we stand? do they think they would lose players because their MMR is too low?



sorry for the digression. they should have our MMR visible where the league badge is. we should have our full statistics shown to us where that stupid badge is. i don't even want to think about the unranked MMR, which should still tell you the same stuff, just don't show a shiny badge on it.



HOW ARE NUMBERS NOT THIS IMPORTANT?



edit: NoNy and TLO with the real responses. "think for yourself, question authority"

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