Qoheleth



Offline



Activity: 951

Merit: 1019





Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.







LegendaryActivity: 951Merit: 1019Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures. Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 16, 2013, 04:27:55 AM

Last edit: February 16, 2013, 06:28:56 AM by Qoheleth #1

Everything I've learned has told me that offers of double-digit annual returns with low risk is a sign of either delusional overconfidence or a ponzi operation.



Are people really paying over 50% APR to buy bitcoins on margin? Is there any way for me to verify this, without risking my money by depositing it at your exchange and trying for myself? Everything I've learned has told me that offers of double-digit annual returns with low risk is a sign of either delusional overconfidence or a ponzi operation.Are people really paying over 50% APR to buy bitcoins on margin? Is there any way for me to verify this, without risking my money by depositing it at your exchange and trying for myself? If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the prevalence of users convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and of the con-artists who have followed them here to devour them.

"Bitcoin: the cutting edge of begging technology." -- Giraffe.BTC ertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal inour jurisdiction. Advertise here.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex: Convince me your interest rates are real. February 16, 2013, 06:03:12 AM #2 then dont ask BFX ask other depositors LOL



you know logic and stuff Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

Qoheleth



Offline



Activity: 951

Merit: 1019





Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.







LegendaryActivity: 951Merit: 1019Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures. Re: Bitfinex: Convince me your interest rates are real. February 16, 2013, 06:31:54 AM #3 Quote from: myself on February 16, 2013, 06:03:12 AM then dont ask BFX ask other depositors LOL



you know logic and stuff

If the other depositors weren't getting their money I think I'd have heard about it by now. But even that PirateAt40 guy was able to make his payments for a while before vanishing with everyone's cash. Just because people are getting their interest today, doesn't mean that interest is backed by anything real.



But I guess you have a point - I can verify how real this rate is by finding out what people are paying in interest for their BFX leveraged longs and shorts.



Hey you! If you're reading this, and you're going long or short on leverage on Bitfinex... what are they charging you for interest?



Hopefully longs are paying more than 50% APR, and shorts more than 10% APR. If so, then I can believe that depositors are getting those interest rates from actual business (and not imaginary ponzi business). If the other depositors weren't getting their money I think I'd have heard about it by now. But even that PirateAt40 guy was able to make his payments for a while before vanishing with everyone's cash. Just because people are getting their interest today, doesn't mean that interest is backed by anything real.But I guess you have a point - I can verify how real this rate is by finding out what people are paying in interest for their BFX leveraged longs and shorts.Hopefully longs are paying more than 50% APR, and shorts more than 10% APR. If so, then I can believe that depositors are getting those interest rates from actual business (and not imaginary ponzi business). If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the prevalence of users convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and of the con-artists who have followed them here to devour them.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 16, 2013, 04:58:09 PM #4

the platform wide record was 9001% APY for USD loans





also here a image with some rates i took and the current credit market



I personally took the record loan USD of 1400% APYthe platform wide record was 9001% APY for USD loansalso here a image with some rates i took and the current credit market Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 16, 2013, 05:26:46 PM #5 Quote Re: Bitfinex: Convince me your interest rates are real. why did you change the thread title lol ?



link that you can check (do need a account)



https://bitfinex.com/pages/stats



https://community.bitfinex.com/showwiki.php?title=Bitfinex+Documentation:Lending



https://community.bitfinex.com/showthread.php/67-Variable-Interest-Rate why did you change the thread title lol ?link that you can check (do need a account) Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

Qoheleth



Offline



Activity: 951

Merit: 1019





Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.







LegendaryActivity: 951Merit: 1019Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures. Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 16, 2013, 10:18:53 PM #6 Quote from: myself on February 16, 2013, 05:26:46 PM Quote Re: Bitfinex: Convince me your interest rates are real. why did you change the thread title lol ?

why did you change the thread title lol ?



Anyway, thanks for the info. I'm much less worried about this than I was on Friday. Your first post, you said I should ask other users. So I changed the thread title so that other users might look in the thread.Anyway, thanks for the info. I'm much less worried about this than I was on Friday. If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the prevalence of users convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and of the con-artists who have followed them here to devour them.

bitcoins5411



Offline



Activity: 63

Merit: 10









MemberActivity: 63Merit: 10 Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 18, 2013, 02:07:08 PM #9 I'm about 95% sure Bitfinex is not a ponzi. I am lending a considerable amount of money there. Here's my reasoning:



1. Interest rates move up and down along with lending volume. When no one wants loans, the interset rates drop. When BTC rallies, loan volume shoots up, all available lending offers are used up by BTC traders and interest rates spike.



2. There are other humans competing against me to lend. If I set a rate at 55%, in 5 or 6 minutes some bugger will come along and ask 54.9%. Either they have an AI-type software that is programmed to compete against lenders or there is a real human on the other end trying to undercut my lending offers.



3. The site operator accepts deposits by wire transfer. If this was a ponzi and he disappeared, I could take legal action against him and I would have proof of sending him real money (not just play money, i.e. BTC).



4. It makes sense to pay 100%+ per year to buy bitcoin if the price is rallying. It makes sense to pay 0.3% per day when bitcoin is going up 10-20% daily. Bitfinex lets you borrow at 5:1, so even a 1% upward price move gains you 5%. With a 0.3% daily cost, you can still make money. So, I don't think traders are acting irrationally by paying these margin rates (as long as the bull market continues).



So, all these factors have convinced me the site is real. For me the risks for bitfinex are the following:



1. The site grows so big with so many deposits it gets tempting for Raphael to run off with all the money.

2. Theft and/or hacking either internally or externally.

3. Raphael disappears and no one can process withdrawals.



Bitfinex is still in beta and so far the people running the service seem interested in running an honest and legitimate service. Let's hope that continues for the long-term.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 18, 2013, 05:34:31 PM #10 Quote from: bitcoins5411 on February 18, 2013, 02:07:08 PM I'm about 95% sure Bitfinex is not a ponzi. I am lending a considerable amount of money there. Here's my reasoning:

jajajaj el puto amo XD poniendo un numero a una cosa tan relativa como confianza

jajajaj el puto amo XD poniendo un numero a una cosa tan relativa como confianza Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 19, 2013, 03:34:55 AM #12

a small update for OP Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

Spekulatius



Offline



Activity: 1022

Merit: 1000









LegendaryActivity: 1022Merit: 1000 Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 19, 2013, 02:41:13 PM #13 225.6% interest PER DAY !! on my loan. Guess how long I had that position open?

10 minutes before the swap interest rates ate it up (while price was rising 1% above base price in a 5:1 leveraged long position --> I should have had unrealized profits instead of a forced liquidation)







What bugs me most is that interest rates are actually wrongly displayed: See how it says 0.28%/day and 0.17%/day ? Instead when the position was opened I was hooked to a ludicrous 225.6%/day loan.



Sorry Bitfinex, but I wont risk anything then playmoney on your service until you restore my trust in it. This is crazy! I had to pay!! on my loan. Guess how long I had that position open?before the swap interest rates ate it up (while price was rising 1% above base price in a 5:1 leveraged long position --> I should have had unrealized profits instead of a forced liquidation)What bugs me most is that interest rates are actually wrongly displayed: See how it says 0.28%/day and 0.17%/day ? Instead when the position was opened I was hooked to a ludicrous 225.6%/day loan.Sorry Bitfinex, but I wont risk anything then playmoney on your service until you restore my trust in it.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 19, 2013, 03:16:21 PM

Last edit: February 19, 2013, 03:30:04 PM by myself #14 Quote What bugs me most is that interest rates are actually wrongly displayed: See how it says 0.28%/day and 0.17%/day ? Instead when the position was opened I was hooked to a ludicrous 225.6%/day loan. @Spekulatius click on lending page and post again, it looks like you have no idea what are you are doing, before pointing with your little finger make some checks , it look like you did took a VIR loan and the variable interest rate does that, varies based on demand that's why you need to click on lending page



another thing the "your indicative rate" is only relevant if you open a new position for maximum 60 days now not for the past loans, so in your picture you are comparing past loans rate with current available rates







to anyone that read this

go and read this

and this

and also this

@Spekulatius click on lending page and post again, it looks like you have no idea what are you are doing,, it look like you did took a VIR loan and the variable interest rate does that, varies based on demand that's why you need to click on lending pageanother thing the "your indicative rate" is only relevant if you open a new position for maximum 60 daysnot for the past loans, so in your picture you are comparing past loans rate with current available ratesto anyone that read thisgo and read this https://community.bitfinex.com/forumdisplay.php/15-Official-Bitfinex-Documentation and this https://community.bitfinex.com/forumdisplay.php/6-Wiki and also this https://community.bitfinex.com/showwiki.php?title=Loans Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 19, 2013, 04:01:03 PM #16 Quote from: Spekulatius on February 19, 2013, 03:41:14 PM Variable interest rates that eat up any margin balance within minutes should be prohibited! Its a clear rip off that no trader could possibly want to choose.

you can see above that is what the market wanted users post this demand for their USD Bitfinex does not lend you USD is all user based, the free market set the VIR and all that





Quote When I made the order to go long yesterday or so, the displayed rates were around the same and by no means 225.6% per day!

go to Executed at vir(XXXXX) it means you took a VIR loan. iirc the last offer was for 88888% APY and some ppl did took it you can see above that is what the market wanted users post this demand for their USD Bitfinex does not lend you USD is all user based, the free market set the VIR and all thatgo to https://bitfinex.com/offers/ and if you see something likeit means you took a VIR loan. iirc the last offer was for 88888% APY and some ppl did took it Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

myself



Offline



Activity: 938

Merit: 1000





chaos is fun... damental :)







LegendaryActivity: 938Merit: 1000chaos is fun... damental :) Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 19, 2013, 04:17:37 PM #17



225/24= 9.375 that means 9.375% per hour



let look at hourly chart









and iirc interest is charged per hour so even if you have the loan 1h and 30 min you pay the interest only for the first 1h (i dont know if Raphael changed that or not) @225.6% IR per day if is much or not225/24= 9.375 that means 9.375% per hourlet look at hourly chartand iirc interest is charged per hour so even if you have the loan 1h and 30 min you pay the interest only for the first 1h (i dont know if Raphael changed that or not) Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.

unclescrooge

Hero Member



Offline



Activity: 868

Merit: 1000







aka RaphyHero MemberActivity: 868Merit: 1000 Re: Bitfinex Users: What are you paying for margin interest? February 19, 2013, 04:26:45 PM #19



I did answer you by email, but to keep other informed: the way Variable Interests rates were calculated made it very sensible to a few very high rate loans. So as I said



This is still a free market of lending rate, but with a retroactive loop to control the rate (or how past market participants will influence current market conditions :p); it will smooth the variations of VIR and avoid what happened last night. If you take a VIR loan, you have to be sure it won't ruin you 1 hour later.



Best regards

Raphael hello Spekulatius,I did answer you by email, but to keep other informed: the way Variable Interests rates were calculated made it very sensible to a few very high rate loans. So as I said here a few hours ago, we have introduced a time factor for the Variable Rate calculation: VIR rate is calculated not only on open loans but also on past loans. This is already in action.This is still a free market of lending rate, but with a retroactive loop to control the rate (or how past market participants will influence current market conditions :p); it will smooth the variations of VIR and avoid what happened last night. If you take a VIR loan, you have to be sure it won't ruin you 1 hour later.Best regardsRaphael