ripper234



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LegendaryActivity: 1344Merit: 1002Ron Gross Wiki governance March 25, 2013, 01:32:41 AM

Last edit: April 14, 2013, 09:55:50 PM by ripper234 #1 Update 15 April 2013 - pausing the rules, they are not in effect right now. Discussion about the rules continues.

Update 13 April 2013 - the rules are now in effect.





Right now the wiki has no functioning admins, and is often riddled with edit wars.

MagicalTux is the de fact owner of the wiki, and sits on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation.



that sgornick and myself will be lead admins for the wiki (the process is taking forever, but I hope we'll get there eventually). I believe sgornick is actually too busy to take an active part in wiki adminship (correct me if I'm wrong). Once this happens, there is the question of what exactly we need to do with this power.



First order of business, I would like to recruit more admins, as I also don't have a lot of time and would need considerable help running the wiki. But this is not what this thread is about.



This thread is about what the group of admins should do once it's formed.

I believe that a primary role of the admin group should be to enforce a minimal and vital set of core rules that will contribute to the general health of the wiki.



I would like the community's help in forming this core rule set. The rules in this set should be "last resort" sort of rules - it's rather bad if we ever need to invoke them, but they need to be in place nonetheless.



I have drafted - pausing the rules, they are not in effect right now. Discussion about the rules continues.- the rules are now in effect. This version will be used until further notice.Right now the wiki has no functioning admins, and is often riddled with edit wars.MagicalTux is the de fact owner of the wiki, and sits on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation. It has been decided that sgornick and myself will be lead admins for the wiki (the process is taking forever, but I hope we'll get there eventually). I believe sgornick is actually too busy to take an active part in wiki adminship (correct me if I'm wrong). Once this happens, there is the question of what exactly we need to do with this power.First order of business, I would like to recruit more admins, as I also don't have a lot of time and would need considerable help running the wiki. But this is not what this thread is about.This thread is about what the group of admins should do once it's formed.I believe that a primary role of the admin group should be to enforce a minimal and vital set of core rules that will contribute to the general health of the wiki.I would like the community's help in forming this core rule set. The rules in this set should be "last resort" sort of rules - it's rather bad if we ever need to invoke them, but they need to be in place nonetheless.I have drafted an initial proposal for a way to govern the wiki, with a proposed core ruleset. Please review, edit and discuss. (I prefer discussion here rather than the wiki itself). Feel free to refine/edit my choice of words if you find more appropriate language, and of course to edit the rules themselves. Please only insert rules that you believe will actually be beneficial to the wiki, but also take care not to put in too many rules - we want the rule set to be very minimal, and very rarely enforced.

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StaffLegendaryActivity: 3178Merit: 4298 Re: Wiki governance March 25, 2013, 02:15:28 AM #2 I don't think think the wiki needs "governance" or at least the word sort of implies other people being bent to the will of others thats not very wiki and it's not very Bitcoin either. The Bitcoin wiki needs more community love and attention, for sure, but the best way to do that is to get more people involved. Sometimes this takes a bit of community building. Please feel free to reach out to me in cases where you think things aren't going well, and I'll gladly wade in and poke things in the right direction.



Making it work well doesn't take people with special rights though having some active people with admin rights can sometimes be handy especially now that the pay-for-edit stuff kills drive by spam dead. More voices trumps more special privileges.



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LegendaryActivity: 2506Merit: 1022 Re: Wiki governance March 25, 2013, 02:43:24 AM #3



It seems (from the Bitcoin Foundation thread) that the decision to make ripper234 an admin was done without any background check, and his self-nomination made with the intent to abuse power, an intention he has recently made explicit on reddit. Therefore, regardless of whether the Foundation is to manage the wiki or not (it currently does not), ripper234 should probably not be made an admin at this time.



Both proposals under "Future" are probably unnecessary. While certain people occasionally wage edit wars, usually to troll or censor others, the current wiki management seems to be working just fine for the most part. Perhaps a warning/ban rule should be established for the users who vandalise the wiki for trolling and/or censorship to avoid edit wars, but that seems to be the only real problem.



Regarding ripper234's proposed core rules... He is linking to a cleanup of the Talk page for Tonal Bitcoin, which was formerly filled with nonsensical trolling. This page was cleaned up to make room for actual discussions. Cleaning up of Talk pages is a fairly standard wiki practice. It is absurd to turn a standard practice into a rule violation.

This is not Wikipedia. Citations may be preferrable for readers, but are not necessary ordinarily. Original research/creation is also common and necessary practice on this wiki. Points of view are subjective, and are effectively citations in and of themselves - it is absurd to censor a point of view simply because anyone disagrees with it.

Edit wars are a symptom of trolls/censors getting away with their vandalism. Outright forbidding of them effectively only stops wiki correction (half the "edit war"), making the problem worse. If anything, the root cause should be addressed.

Finally, the wiki should not depend on this majority-rule-by-trolls forum. As long as bans are kept temporary, there shouldn't often be need of appeals; perhaps a special wiki page can be setup where banned users can post a request should there prove to be a need. First of all, it is not correct to say none of the current admins do anything. At least nanotube and sgornick have been proactive in managing the wiki recently.It seems (from the Bitcoin Foundation thread) that the decision to make ripper234 an admin was done without any background check, and his self-nomination made with the intent to abuse power, an intention he has recently made explicit on reddit. Therefore, regardless of whether the Foundation is to manage the wiki or not (it currently does not), ripper234 should probably not be made an admin at this time.Both proposals under "Future" are probably unnecessary. While certain people occasionally wage edit wars, usually to troll or censor others, the current wiki management seems to be working just fine for the most part. Perhaps a warning/ban rule should be established for the users who vandalise the wiki for trolling and/or censorship to avoid edit wars, but that seems to be the only real problem.Regarding ripper234's proposed core rules...Finally, the wiki should not depend on this majority-rule-by-trolls forum. As long as bans are kept temporary, there shouldn't often be need of appeals; perhaps a special wiki page can be setup where banned users can post a request should there prove to be a need.

My projects: Bitcoin Core, BFGMiner, Eloipool (pool software), Donate: 134dV6U7gQ6wCFbfHUz2CMh6Dth72oGpgH My projects: Bitcoin Knots Tonal Bitcoin , and BitGit (Bitcoin code directory)

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NewbieActivity: 46Merit: 0 Re: Wiki governance March 25, 2013, 06:40:03 AM #6 I recognize this problem. It is very prevalent among wiki's all over the world. We need mediators. I'll volunteer, contact me if you want my help.

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VIPLegendaryActivity: 1176Merit: 1023 Re: Wiki governance March 25, 2013, 08:44:54 AM #8 actively involved in the community (sockpuppets or not). If you can't do that anymore, you step down (like what has happened on bitcointalk). If you can't do that since the start, then you're not a good candidate for a position of power (unless you're someone who works on the maintenance).



Quote

On the other hand, the wiki can't be home to every opinion someone has on a Bitcoin related topic.





yes it can.



User:TradeFortress/Personal_Opinion_Goes_Here

Objective_Article_Goes_Here If you don't have the time to invest in the wiki then why are you a good candidate? Admins and moderators need to bein the community (sockpuppets or not). If you can't do that anymore, you step down (like what has happened on bitcointalk). If you can't do that since the start, then you're not a good candidate for a position of power (unless you're someone who works on the maintenance).yes it can.User:TradeFortress/Personal_Opinion_Goes_HereObjective_Article_Goes_Here

ripper234



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Ron Gross







LegendaryActivity: 1344Merit: 1002Ron Gross Re: Wiki governance March 29, 2013, 05:30:23 PM #11 I'm glad to report that I have been added as a new admin!

Thanks Lindsay, Gavin, Mark, and anyone else who helped make this happen.



I'd like to take this chance and push forward the rules I proposed.

I suppose that I will set a 2 week period to debate, edit and redefine these rules before I (and hopefully other wiki admins) start enforcing them.

How does that sound?

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LegendaryActivity: 2506Merit: 1001 Re: Wiki governance April 04, 2013, 08:13:18 AM #14 Quote from: ripper234 on March 25, 2013, 08:26:54 AM I think that 99.9% of the disagreements should be resolved without admin powers or admins. I do think there is a place for admins and rules.



This Bitcoin.it wiki isn't just used for Bitcoin (the software), it is use for and by much of the Bitcoin ecosystem. That includes third party services, tangentially related projects, and more.



Though the wiki has admins, the admins are frequently going to be less knowledgeable or interested in each particular article's subject.



Let's take the Tonal bitcoin article. That's Luke's baby. He knows more about it, is the most motivated to maintain it, etc. Therefore, I as an admin generally am going to defer to the domain-specific champion for that article. If that person feels there is trolling and wants to clean it up I don't want some "wiki governance policy" telling me that removal is prohibited and that I as admin can't just let Luke deal with it. If he thinks gibberish should be purged on that discussion page for that specific topic, then I'll support Luke with that decision. Either way, it is inert -- nobody is harmed or misled by the content on the Tonal bitcoin article so I as admin am comfortable letting that be with no intervention as an admin.



Now for topics which are directly related to the Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoin client, Bitcoin protocol or other Bitcoin-project specific areas then having some rules could become necessary, I suppose. The odd thing is, for those there's almost never been edit wars, incessant trolling, ego trips, etc. So that's why even without governance there's never been much of a need for administrator intervention with those.



This Bitcoin.it wiki isn't just used for Bitcoin (the software), it is use for and by much of the Bitcoin ecosystem. That includes third party services, tangentially related projects, and more.Though the wiki has admins, the admins are frequently going to be less knowledgeable or interested in each particular article's subject.Let's take the Tonal bitcoin article. That's Luke's baby. He knows more about it, is the most motivated to maintain it, etc. Therefore, I as an admin generally am going to defer to the domain-specific champion for that article. If that person feels there is trolling and wants to clean it up I don't want some "wiki governance policy" telling me that removal is prohibited and that I as admin can't just let Luke deal with it. If he thinks gibberish should be purged onfor, then I'll support Luke with that decision. Either way, it is inert -- nobody is harmed or misled by the content on the Tonal bitcoin article so I as admin am comfortable letting that be with no intervention as an admin.Now for topics which are directly related to the Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoin client, Bitcoin protocol or other Bitcoin-project specific areas then having some rules could become necessary, I suppose. The odd thing is, for those there's almost never been edit wars, incessant trolling, ego trips, etc. So that's why even without governance there's never been much of a need for administrator intervention with those. Uni change .me



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ripper234



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LegendaryActivity: 1344Merit: 1002Ron Gross Re: Wiki governance April 04, 2013, 11:09:54 PM #15 Quote from: Stephen Gornick on April 04, 2013, 08:13:18 AM This Bitcoin.it wiki isn't just used for Bitcoin (the software), it is use for and by much of the Bitcoin ecosystem. That includes third party services, tangentially related projects, and more.



Though the wiki has admins, the admins are frequently going to be less knowledgeable or interested in each particular article's subject.



Let's take the Tonal bitcoin article. That's Luke's baby. He knows more about it, is the most motivated to maintain it, etc. Therefore, I as an admin generally am going to defer to the domain-specific champion for that article. If that person feels there is trolling and wants to clean it up I don't want some "wiki governance policy" telling me that removal is prohibited and that I as admin can't just let Luke deal with it. If he thinks gibberish should be purged on that discussion page for that specific topic, then I'll support Luke with that decision. Either way, it is inert -- nobody is harmed or misled by the content on the Tonal bitcoin article so I as admin am comfortable letting that be with no intervention as an admin.



Now for topics which are directly related to the Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoin client, Bitcoin protocol or other Bitcoin-project specific areas then having some rules could become necessary, I suppose. The odd thing is, for those there's almost never been edit wars, incessant trolling, ego trips, etc. So that's why even without governance there's never been much of a need for administrator intervention with those.



I don't claim to understand Tonal Bitcoins. I don't know if Luke-jr is the only person who does, or whether more people are interested in this.

I don't even want to get into the "notability argument".



Even though someone is subject matter expert, there are some things that I see as abuse of power.



1. Deletion of discussions. Why deletion is ever better than archival? I don't buy the claim that "it's archived in the history". On Wikipedia old discussion are archived and linked to from the main discussion page - let's keep the same policy here. How can a discussion on a talk page be that big of a "trolling" attempt to warrant deletion?

2. NPOV and revert/edit wars. Sometimes there's a disagreement on article content. People should avoid edit wars, and in case of doubt open a discussion and reach a consensus. See also



I would like to discuss any rule violation on a case by case basis. This thread is not meant to discuss any specific rule violation ... but rather to try to reach a broad as possible agreement to the rules we should follow. Did you find any rule which you think require amendment or removal? If so, please edit them. But - I would like to form some sort of commonly agreed upon basis. I don't claim to understand Tonal Bitcoins. I don't know if Luke-jr is the only person who does, or whether more people are interested in this.I don't even want to get into the "notability argument".Even though someone is subject matter expert, there are some things that I see as abuse of power.1.. Why deletion is ever better than archival? I don't buy the claim that "it's archived in the history". On Wikipedia old discussion are archived and linked to from the main discussion page - let's keep the same policy here. How can a discussion on a talk page be that big of a "trolling" attempt to warrant deletion?2.. Sometimes there's a disagreement on article content. People should avoid edit wars, and in case of doubt open a discussion and reach a consensus. See also My edit war with Luke-jr . I certainly felt like Luke was trying to enforce his view and add his non-objective POV into articles. In this case this was an article that I created, so I can be considered enough of a "subject matter expert".I would like to discuss any rule violation on a case by case basis. This thread is not meant to discuss any specific rule violation ... but rather to try to reach a broad as possible agreement to the rules we should follow. Did you find any rule which you think require amendment or removal? If so, please edit them. But - I would like to form some sort of commonly agreed upon basis.

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StaffLegendaryActivity: 3178Merit: 4298 Re: Wiki governance April 14, 2013, 08:49:22 PM #17



Though I disagreed with the whole approach of setting a bunch of rules instead of building a community, I thought it wise to hack at the proposed rule a bit in case they were eventually applied.



The page sat with edits made by myself, Ripper234, and Luke in a



Then today in a single series of edits Ripper234



This isn't how a community process works and I am disappointed. I've provided additional commentary at

I am disappointed in this turn of events.Though I disagreed with the whole approach of setting a bunch of rules instead of building a community, I thought it wise to hack at the proposed rule a bit in case they were eventually applied.The page sat with edits made by myself, Ripper234, and Luke in a single state for about two weeks with no further edits one might have assumed that we'd found a formulation that no one interested found horrible.Then today in a single series of edits Ripper234 performed a substantial rewrite and declared the page official policy.This isn't how a community process works and I am disappointed. I've provided additional commentary at the talk page and I'd suggest further discussion be moved there since the forum appears to be failing as a discussion mechanism for Wiki content in this case.

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LegendaryActivity: 1344Merit: 1002Ron Gross Re: Wiki governance April 14, 2013, 09:55:16 PM

Last edit: April 14, 2013, 10:15:04 PM by ripper234 #18 Quote from: gmaxwell on April 14, 2013, 08:49:22 PM



Though I disagreed with the whole approach of setting a bunch of rules instead of building a community, I thought it wise to hack at the proposed rule a bit in case they were eventually applied.



The page sat with edits made by myself, Ripper234, and Luke in a



Then today in a single series of edits Ripper234



This isn't how a community process works and I am disappointed. I've provided additional commentary at



I am disappointed in this turn of events.Though I disagreed with the whole approach of setting a bunch of rules instead of building a community, I thought it wise to hack at the proposed rule a bit in case they were eventually applied.The page sat with edits made by myself, Ripper234, and Luke in a single state for about two weeks with no further edits one might have assumed that we'd found a formulation that no one interested found horrible.Then today in a single series of edits Ripper234 performed a substantial rewrite and declared the page official policy.This isn't how a community process works and I am disappointed. I've provided additional commentary at the talk page and I'd suggest further discussion be moved there since the forum appears to be failing as a discussion mechanism for Wiki content in this case.



1. Since there is both disagreement, and a willingness to discuss the disagreement, I am willing to postpone enforcing the rules until either an agreement is met, or serious discussion about the disagreement stops.



2. I replied to all comments on this bitcointalk thread, but I feel that both you and Luke-jr did not reply to all of my comments, and thus effectively didn't continue the discussion. It is not my job to force you to discuss things - if you want to influence the policy, you should keep debating it if I (as the policy maker in this case) disagree.



3. Luke-jr did a few edits that significantly changed my original proposal, without posting about it here. I consider this trolling, and so I reverted it. I discovered these edits only 1-2 days ago, and reverted them as soon as I found out about them. I am open to reconsider my opinion and everything is debateable.



4. I must insist that this thread be the place to discuss this proposal and not the talk page. People can post comments there, but a link to it should be posted here. This insistence is caused by my workflow, which is email-driven. I have not figured out a clean way to get email notifications whenever a specific wiki article is edited, and since I don't visit the wiki every day, discussions on talk pages feel more difficult and delayed to me. I realize other people might prefer other workflows, but since we're all proficient bitcointalk users and are quite capable of using it, I suggest we just flock to the common communication medium that we can all manage with = bitcointalk.





Regarding your specific comments on the talk page, I haven't had time to review them yet, and will do so when I get a chance to breath (my life is super busy right now).



I repeat:



As long as there is a disagreement about the proposed rules, and a willingness to constructively discuss this disagreement, I will postpone enforcing them and making them official policy. A willingness to discuss them must include replying to comments on this thread in a timely manner.

1. Since there is both disagreement, and a willingness to discuss the disagreement, I am willing to postpone enforcing the rules until either an agreement is met, or serious discussion about the disagreement stops.2. I replied to all comments on this bitcointalk thread, but I feel that both you and Luke-jr did not reply to all of my comments, and thus effectively didn't continue the discussion. It is not my job to force you to discuss things - if you want to influence the policy, you should keep debating it if I (as the policy maker in this case) disagree.3. Luke-jr did a few edits that significantly changed my original proposal, without posting about it here. I consider this trolling, and so I reverted it. I discovered these edits only 1-2 days ago, and reverted them as soon as I found out about them. I am open to reconsider my opinion and everything is debateable.4. I must insist that this thread be the place to discuss this proposal and not the talk page. People can post comments there, but a link to it should be posted here. This insistence is caused by my workflow, which is email-driven. I have not figured out a clean way to get email notifications whenever a specific wiki article is edited, and since I don't visit the wiki every day, discussions on talk pages feel more difficult and delayed to me. I realize other people might prefer other workflows, but since we're all proficient bitcointalk users and are quite capable of using it, I suggest we just flock to the common communication medium that we can all manage with = bitcointalk.Regarding your specific comments on the talk page, I haven't had time to review them yet, and will do so when I get a chance to breath (my life is super busy right now).I repeat:As long as there is a disagreement about the proposed rules, and a willingness to constructively discuss this disagreement, I will postpone enforcing them and making them official policy. A willingness to discuss them must include replying to comments on this thread in a timely manner. My last post sat idle for 8 days with no reply, so I concluded that nobody is interested or have the time to continue the debate right now.

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LegendaryActivity: 1344Merit: 1002Ron Gross Re: Wiki governance April 14, 2013, 10:14:20 PM #19 Quote from: gmaxwell Sometimes this takes a bit of community building. Please feel free to reach out to me in cases where you think things aren't going well, and I'll gladly wade in and poke things in the right direction.



I will take you up on that offer in case of specific disagreements in the future.

This post is not about any specific disagreement, but rather about determining a basic code of conduct.



Now that you mention it - there is one disagreement that you might want to give your opinion on, which I touched above.



I would like you to tell me whether you believe that



I believe this edit is not constructive, and thus should have been reverted ... which is what I did.

My reasons for this belief:



Quote from: luke-jr An an exception, resolved and/or dead conversations may be pruned as necessary to make cluttered Talk pages more managable.



This goes straight against everything I said in this thread. Luke-jr significantly changed the meaning of the rules I proposed without posting any comment about it here:



Quote from: ripper234 on March 25, 2013, 05:25:24 PM Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 25, 2013, 11:33:18 AM Quote from: ripper234 on March 25, 2013, 08:26:54 AM "Cleaning up" by deleting entire discussions is not standard wiki practice.

Yes, it is. They remain archived in the Talk page history.

Yes, it is. They remain archived in the Talk page history.

Not good enough. A page's history is not accessible to most visitors. It's true that they can access it if they know where to look, but the plain truth is that if a user visits an empty talk page he will not go digging through history, but rather assume that there aren't any discussions.



In any case, this is not the way things are done on Wikipedia. For reference check out the

Not good enough. A page's history is not accessible to most visitors. It's true that they can access it if they know where to look, but the plain truth is that if a user visits an empty talk page he will not go digging through history, but rather assume that there aren't any discussions.In any case, this is not the way things are done on Wikipedia. For reference check out the much used talk page for Bitcoin itself . Discussions are orderly archived, never "cleaned up" by editing them away.

The following parts were deleted from the page by Luke-jr:



Quote from: wiki # In case of dispute, citations should be brought in to support a POV.

# Citations should be "convincing". Quoting a few opinions and prefixing an opinion with "some claim that" is not cause to violate NPOV.

# No [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring edit wars] are allowed.



This is another significant change that was not discussed, but rather silently implemented by Luke-jr.





My edit simply reverted his silent changes.



Again I say - I am open to keep discussing any aspect of the rules, and will not implement them as long as there is a constructive debate going. Going beyond my back and changing my intended meaning is not constructive and will not be tolerated.



Perhaps the fault is mine - I haven't made this request when I started this thread.

I will repeat it here, and I think it should be the basis for further discussion:



It is not ok to make significant edits to the proposed rules without discussing them here constructively and reaching a "sort of conesus" about the proposed changes.



Any edits that contain significant changes, that contradict things I previously wrote here, and are made behind my back without prior consensus, will be reverted.



The purpose is not to enforce our views on each other, but rather find a common ground, that can only be achieved by discussion. I realize that a common ground might not be something that we can actually reach in a finite period of time. In case of a stalemate I will use my "admin superpower" and dictate my view of things, but I hope this will not be necessary, and will definitely refrain from doing this as long as constructive debate is going on.



We might have a disagreement about "what is constructive debate", if we reach that point we'll open that. For now I will assume all of us can recognize constructive debate and separate it from something that is not constructive debate.



Peace out,

Ron I will take you up on that offer in case of specific disagreements in the future.This post is not about any specific disagreement, but rather about determining a basic code of conduct.Now that you mention it - there is one disagreement that you might want to give your opinion on, which I touched above.I would like you to tell me whether you believe that this edit by Luke-jr is positive or negative. I called in trolling in my previous post, and I'm sorry - let's try and stay constructive and avoid name calling.I believe this edit is not constructive, and thus should have been reverted ... which is what I did.My reasons for this belief:This goes straight against everything I said in this thread. Luke-jr significantly changed the meaning of the rules I proposed without posting any comment about it here:The following parts were deleted from the page by Luke-jr:This is another significant change that was not discussed, but rather silently implemented by Luke-jr.My edit simply reverted his silent changes.Again I say - I am open to keep discussing any aspect of the rules, and will not implement them as long as there is a constructive debate going. Going beyond my back and changing my intended meaning is not constructive and will not be tolerated.Perhaps the fault is mine - I haven't made this request when I started this thread.I will repeat it here, and I think it should be the basis for further discussion:Any edits that contain significant changes, that contradict things I previously wrote here, and are made behind my back without prior consensus, will be reverted.The purpose is not to enforce our views on each other, but rather find a common ground, that can only be achieved by discussion. I realize that a common ground might not be something that we can actually reach in a finite period of time. In case of a stalemate I will use my "admin superpower" and dictate my view of things, but I hope this will not be necessary, and will definitely refrain from doing this as long as constructive debate is going on.We might have a disagreement about "what is constructive debate", if we reach that point we'll open that. For now I will assume all of us can recognize constructive debate and separate it from something that is not constructive debate.Peace out,Ron

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