The Trump-supporting rancher and his sons have now become unexpected critics, telling the Guardian: ‘I don’t like walls’

Cliven Bundy is not a fan of walls.

A hero to some in the far right due to his family’s armed standoffs with the US government, the Nevada rancher is an avid supporter of Donald Trump. But there’s one major issue where they diverge.

Rebel cowboys: how the Bundy family sparked a new battle for the American west Read more

“I really question his doctrine ever since he started it about building a wall,” Bundy, 72, told the Guardian on Wednesday. “I don’t like walls. I think we oughta be able to get along with neighbors … Trump’s wall never did sit very good with me.”

The Bundy family is getting renewed attention this week as unexpected critics of the president’s anti-immigrant agenda after the US fired teargas at migrants, including children, at the Mexico border. The objections of the Bundy men – who were jailed for nearly two years and are celebrated by anti-government militias – add to the list of rightwing voices condemning Trump for his attacks on migrants seeking asylum.

Play Video 1:00 US officers fire teargas at migrant caravan – video

Cliven and his sons Ammon and Ryan were memorably prosecuted after their family’s longstanding refusal to pay grazing fees for their Nevada cattle, which escalated to an armed conflict with authorities at their ranch in 2014. In 2016, the two sons continued their protests of federal land regulation and the government’s treatment of ranchers with a takeover of an Oregon wildlife national refuge, which ended in mass arrests.

In stunning victories for the family and their supporters, US prosecutors failed to convict the Bundys in both cases, and Trump later pardoned two ranchers in Oregon whose imprisonment had sparked the refuge standoff.

We do believe we’re equal, and we oughta be treated equal and not be divided Cliven Bundy

Despite links between the White House and the Bundys’ rightwing causes, Ammon surprised some of his followers on Tuesday with a lengthy Facebook video challenging some of the president’s positions and expressing sympathy for migrants seeking to enter the US.

Ammon criticized conspiracy theories about the migrants and claims that “they’re all a bunch of terrorists”, saying: “That’s a bunch of garbage.” He also acknowledged the violence migrants are fleeing: “The conditions in Honduras factually are terrible … Many of the refugees have testified that they had lost a husband or a mother or a brother or a sister or children and that they’ve been threatened.”

He said some anti-immigrant arguments are “fear-based” and “based upon selfishness”.

Reached by phone, Cliven said he agreed with some of his son’s arguments.

Facebook Twitter Pinterest Ammon Bundy said anti-immigrant rhetoric was based in fear. Photograph: John Locher/AP

“Are they good people or bad people? If they’re good people looking for refuge, we’re Americans and we should have a heart and we should try to help them,” he said, noting the harrowing journeys some have probably taken. “How much suffering and effort are they putting forth to get to our border? They are after some freedom and liberty and a better life.”

Cliven, however, said it was “hard to tell what the truth is” and referenced unsubstantiated reports that migrants could be earning payments to be part of the caravan. Trump and other Republicans have repeated baseless claims that Democrats were funding the migrants, and Ammon acknowledged these falsehoods on the “conservative side”.

Cliven said he believed migrants should have an opportunity to apply for asylum.

“Are they really refugees or are they really criminals? … We need to settle down and sort them out,” he said. “We can take care of a few thousand people for a few days.”

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Cliven emphasized that borders and national sovereignty were important to him and that the use of weapons could be justified in some cases: “That is the United States’ job to protect our borders. If they have to use teargas, I hope they don’t have to and I hope they wouldn’t do it.”

The Bundys are Mormons, and the father and son both referenced faith in their commentary about migrants.

“We are sort of a worldwide church. We do believe that all of the people on this earth are Heavenly Father’s children,” said Cliven, noting that there are Mexican members of the Mormon church. “We do believe we’re equal, and we oughta be treated equal and not be divided.”

Cliven said he also thought Trump’s proposed border wall, a signature part of the 2016 campaign, would be largely pointless.

“They can’t build a wall to stop people … I don’t think it’s going to do any good,” he said, adding, “We have an obligation between both countries to deal with each other, and we are neighbors … Those refugees who are coming from far south, I think we gotta deal with them. I don’t think they’re that big of a problem.”

Facebook Twitter Pinterest Children who have trekked for a month across Central America and Mexico at a temporary shelter in Tijuana. Photograph: Guillermo Arias/AFP/Getty Images

In a separate interview, Ryan said he spoke with Ammon before his Facebook video and expressed support for his brother, adding, “The United States of America has always been known as a melting pot. It’s always been a place for immigration. Except for the Native Americans, we’re all immigrants.”

But, he added, “That doesn’t mean everyone can just rush the border. There’s still a process that needs to take place.”

The Bundys’ lengthy stints in jail may have also influenced their somewhat unique politics.

Cliven, who was infamously caught on camera in 2014 referring to black Americans as “the negro”, and questioning whether they were “better off as slaves”, said he had learned a lot about the unfairness of the US prison system.

“There’s a pretty good percentage of people that shouldn’t be in jail,” he said. “They are making money off of prisoners … It’s a bureaucracy instead of the justice system.”

He said he was perplexed by America’s high rates of incarceration: “We are supposed to be the freeest nation in the world … I was in jail with several thousand people. I’ve seen a lot of good people in there. The smartest people in this nation might be incarcerated in their jails.”

Ammon, who could not be reached for comment, said in his video that he received a lot of “negative response” for his perspective on refugees, including threats of violence: “Several people wished me dead and others wished that the militia never come and help my family so that the government would kill us.”