A former member Posted 11/7/13 10:39 PM

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Post #: 41



1.) Posta longa.







Pisani Dossi MS Translation: "In order to earn the presa I am prepared. If I do not deceive you, you will have a good deal."



Colin Hatcher Translation: "I am Posta Longa and I seek you like this. And in response to the first grapple that you attempt on me I will bring my right arm up under your left arm, and then I will execute the first play of the Abrazare. And with that lock I will force you to the ground. And if that lock looks like it will fail me, then I will switch to one of the other locks that follow."



Getty Representation: "I am posta longa and like this you look. And in the presa that you wish to do to me, my right arm that is raised, I will place it under your left for certain. And I enter in the first play of Abrazare, and with such presa I will make you go to ground. And if that presa was likely to fail me, to the other presa that follow I know to enter."



My interpretation(s): Wow, we have a lot to work with here. Posta longa is the first position presented in Fiore's work, and it seems to have many purposes. Looking at the position (and from the little bit of experimentation we've done as a group), it seems obvious that this position is very good for keeping an opponent at a distance if you want to gauge their reactions and figure out what kind of opponent they are. This position is good for feeling out your opponent; if he charges in or puts too much weight forward you can release the pressure of posta longa and they will fall forward, likely into an unfavorable position for them. It is quite difficult to overstate how important feeling your opponent's "energy" is in wrestling; having any clue where he might go or what his intentions are is what will ultimately keep you from being thrown to the earth like a rag doll.



Posta longa can also be used deceptively. Remember when Fiore said: "If I do not deceive you, you will have a good deal." What does this mean? Ultimately, I don't know, but it does heavily remind me of what we used a position like this for in my previous grappling experience. A long-arm position was often used to keep an opponent at bay, to make him think that you were too timid to enter closing distance, or to force him to become impatient and attack when he thought you were simply pushing him away. This low-level deception is definitely enough to play mental games with your adversary in wrestling matches, and it leads to some fantastic throws and locks when done properly.



Fiore also mentions using this guard to enter the first play of Abrazare (remember that this is Fiore's first counter play, the one with the bent arm lock over the neck). When going from posta longa to the first play of Abrazare it is important to remember to keep your hand well connected to your opponent's torso, otherwise it will be obvious that you are going for the underhook and you will be thwarted.



As we have drilled in our class, this position is also impressively useful for parrying straight punches. Extending the arm straight outward gently redirects the punch, meaning that the action is not so overt as to cause your enemy to flinch away from it instinctively, and so the punch will generally skate right past you harmlessly, leading your adversary to fall into whatever trap you have set for him in doing so.



I will do a follow-up bit on the Boar's Tooth position tomorrow, but for now I'm off to bed.

The core of Fiore dei Liberi's martial system is wrestling (abrazare), and (thankfully for us) there are only four basic positions to wrestle from. What is most interesting about these four positions is that they are not just static guards to fight from, but are active positions meant for various goals such as deception, counter-fighting, and aggressive closing maneuvers. An added layer of complexity is added once we look at the various translations of his work and discover that different texts have varying descriptions of the positions and their purpose(s). What I'm going to try and do here is to interpret Fiore's text(s) and give you guys a working description of his guards and what they are good for.1.) Posta longa.Pisani Dossi MS Translation: "In order to earn the presa I am prepared. If I do not deceive you, you will have a good deal."Colin Hatcher Translation: "I am Posta Longa and I seek you like this. And in response to the first grapple that you attempt on me I will bring my right arm up under your left arm, and then I will execute the first play of the Abrazare. And with that lock I will force you to the ground. And if that lock looks like it will fail me, then I will switch to one of the other locks that follow."Getty Representation: "I am posta longa and like this you look. And in the presa that you wish to do to me, my right arm that is raised, I will place it under your left for certain. And I enter in the first play of Abrazare, and with such presa I will make you go to ground. And if that presa was likely to fail me, to the other presa that follow I know to enter."My interpretation(s): Wow, we have a lot to work with here. Posta longa is the first position presented in Fiore's work, and it seems to have many purposes. Looking at the position (and from the little bit of experimentation we've done as a group), it seems obvious that this position is very good for keeping an opponent at a distance if you want to gauge their reactions and figure out what kind of opponent they are. This position is good for feeling out your opponent; if he charges in or puts too much weight forward you can release the pressure of posta longa and they will fall forward, likely into an unfavorable position for them. It is quite difficult to overstate how important feeling your opponent's "energy" is in wrestling; having any clue where he might go or what his intentions are is what will ultimately keep you from being thrown to the earth like a rag doll.Posta longa can also be used deceptively. Remember when Fiore said: "If I do not deceive you, you will have a good deal." What does this mean? Ultimately, I don't know, but it does heavily remind me of what we used a position like this for in my previous grappling experience. A long-arm position was often used to keep an opponent at bay, to make him think that you were too timid to enter closing distance, or to force him to become impatient and attack when he thought you were simply pushing him away. This low-level deception is definitely enough to play mental games with your adversary in wrestling matches, and it leads to some fantastic throws and locks when done properly.Fiore also mentions using this guard to enter the first play of Abrazare (remember that this is Fiore's first counter play, the one with the bent arm lock over the neck). When going from posta longa to the first play of Abrazare it is important to remember to keep your hand well connected to your opponent's torso, otherwise it will be obvious that you are going for the underhook and you will be thwarted.As we have drilled in our class, this position is also impressively useful for parrying straight punches. Extending the arm straight outward gently redirects the punch, meaning that the action is not so overt as to cause your enemy to flinch away from it instinctively, and so the punch will generally skate right past you harmlessly, leading your adversary to fall into whatever trap you have set for him in doing so.I will do a follow-up bit on the Boar's Tooth position tomorrow, but for now I'm off to bed.

A former member Posted 11/8/13 4:17 PM

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Post #: 42







Colin Hatcher Translation: "I counter you with Dente di Zenghiaro. And with this move I am sure to break your grip. And from this guard I can transition to Porta di Ferro, which will force you to the ground. And if my plan fails me because of your defense, I will seek other ways to hurt you, for example with breaks, binds and dislocations, as you see depicted in these drawings."



Getty Representation: "In dente di zenghiar against you I come. I am sure to break your presa with my hold. And from this I leave and to porta di ferro I enter."



Pisani Dossi Translation: "Of the changed fight I look to make. And with this to ground I will make you go."



My current interpretation(s): Like Fiore's previous posta, there seems to be some discrepancy between each of the texts as to the purpose of this position. This isn't entirely surprising, as dei Liberi wrote several treatises over the course of his life, and so I suppose it makes a certain amount of intuitive sense that each text would be slightly different, but this stance seems to have opposite purposes depending on which translation we read.



In Colin Hatcher's translation, Dente di Zenghiar seems to be a defensive posture. "I counter you with the boar's tooth" seems to describe a situation where the adversary is being aggressive and coming forward, and the boar's tooth is being deployed as a counter to him. "And with this move I am sure to break your grip", "I am sure to break your presa with my hold"; these seem to be relatively straightforward in depicting an attack scenario where one is gripped or taken hold of by your enemy, and require the use of Dente di Zenghiar to break free and continue fighting. However, the Pisani-Dossi translation seems to throw a wrench in this by saying: "Of the changed fight I look to make."



Frankly, I really can't say I know what that means. I suspect, though, that it could be a reference to changing the circumstances of a fight. It could be a bit of a stretch, but maybe what Fiore is getting at here is that the fight is in one state when you are being held by your opponent, and Dente di Zenghiar is the way to change that state (putting you in an advantageous position). Again, this is pure speculation, but reading the three works together seems to suggest that this posta is meant specifically for breaking holds and removing the advantage from your opponent. In class we worked on breaking a solid bear hug with the boar's tooth (who would've thought that a boar would beat a bear?), as well as using it as a way to brace against an adversary that is closing the distance on us in a very aggressive manner, and using it as a transition whilst protecting our face from a punch, so it seems like what we were doing there fits well with the description(s) of the guards.



However, once again Fiore confounds us by saying: "In dente di zenghiar against you I come." Is Fiore suggesting that boar's tooth is an active, aggressive guard? I'm not sure. It could be that we are running up against the wall of linguistic differences here. Fiore could mean we are directly attacking the adversary in this position, or he could simply be saying that in the act of resisting an aggressive enemy we are working "against" him. I can't say I'm certain about this one.



Fiore says something interesting here, though: "And from this I leave and to porta di ferro I enter." Fiore seems to very much prefer the use of Porta di Ferro in most situations (and I will try and explain why in my next post), and I think it makes a certain amount of sense here. Imagine yourself using Dente di Zenghiar to brace against an enemy or break a grip; once that grip is broken, using Porta di Ferro to bring the opponent down or retreating into that stance for protection seems to make a bit of sense in most cases. As always, though, I welcome alternate interpretations.

The second posta in Fiore dei Liberi's system of Abrazare is Dente di Zenghiaro, the boar's tooth.Colin Hatcher Translation: "I counter you with Dente di Zenghiaro. And with this move I am sure to break your grip. And from this guard I can transition to Porta di Ferro, which will force you to the ground. And if my plan fails me because of your defense, I will seek other ways to hurt you, for example with breaks, binds and dislocations, as you see depicted in these drawings."Getty Representation: "In dente di zenghiar against you I come. I am sure to break your presa with my hold. And from this I leave and to porta di ferro I enter."Pisani Dossi Translation: "Of the changed fight I look to make. And with this to ground I will make you go."My current interpretation(s): Like Fiore's previous posta, there seems to be some discrepancy between each of the texts as to the purpose of this position. This isn't entirely surprising, as dei Liberi wrote several treatises over the course of his life, and so I suppose it makes a certain amount of intuitive sense that each text would be slightly different, but this stance seems to have opposite purposes depending on which translation we read.In Colin Hatcher's translation, Dente di Zenghiar seems to be a defensive posture. "I counter you with the boar's tooth" seems to describe a situation where the adversary is being aggressive and coming forward, and the boar's tooth is being deployed as a counter to him. "And with this move I am sure to break your grip", "I am sure to break your presa with my hold"; these seem to be relatively straightforward in depicting an attack scenario where one is gripped or taken hold of by your enemy, and require the use of Dente di Zenghiar to break free and continue fighting. However, the Pisani-Dossi translation seems to throw a wrench in this by saying: "Of the changed fight I look to make."Frankly, I really can't say I know what that means. I suspect, though, that it could be a reference to changing the circumstances of a fight. It could be a bit of a stretch, but maybe what Fiore is getting at here is that the fight is in one state when you are being held by your opponent, and Dente di Zenghiar is the way to change that state (putting you in an advantageous position). Again, this is pure speculation, but reading the three works together seems to suggest that this posta is meant specifically for breaking holds and removing the advantage from your opponent. In class we worked on breaking a solid bear hug with the boar's tooth (who would've thought that a boar would beat a bear?), as well as using it as a way to brace against an adversary that is closing the distance on us in a very aggressive manner, and using it as a transition whilst protecting our face from a punch, so it seems like what we were doing there fits well with the description(s) of the guards.However, once again Fiore confounds us by saying: "In dente di zenghiar against you I come." Is Fiore suggesting that boar's tooth is an active, aggressive guard? I'm not sure. It could be that we are running up against the wall of linguistic differences here. Fiore could mean we are directly attacking the adversary in this position, or he could simply be saying that in the act of resisting an aggressive enemy we are working "against" him. I can't say I'm certain about this one.Fiore says something interesting here, though: "And from this I leave and to porta di ferro I enter." Fiore seems to very much prefer the use of Porta di Ferro in most situations (and I will try and explain why in my next post), and I think it makes a certain amount of sense here. Imagine yourself using Dente di Zenghiar to brace against an enemy or break a grip; once that grip is broken, using Porta di Ferro to bring the opponent down or retreating into that stance for protection seems to make a bit of sense in most cases. As always, though, I welcome alternate interpretations. Edited by User 79,050,192 on Nov 8, 2013 4:21 PM



San Diego, CA

Post #: 58 Grauenwolf When are you going to add the rest of them?



A former member Posted 1/17/14 1:25 AM

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Post #: 46



So, let's take a look at Fiore's third wrestling position: porta di ferro, the Iron Gate.







Pisani Dossi Translation: "If with cunning you will not conquer me, I believe, That with my strength I will make you ill or worse."



Getty Translation: "In porta di ferro I wait for you without movement in order to earn the presa (hold) with all my own ability. The play of Abrazare (wrestling) is my art. And of spear, axe, sword and dagger a great part. Porta di ferro is with malice filled. Who counters me I always give contention and pain. And to you that counters me then the presa I earn, with the strong presa I will make you go to ground."



Colin Hatcher translation: I wait for you without moving in Porta di Ferro, ready to grapple with all of my skill..."



My current interpretation(s): I'm always one for debate, but I'm not sure there is any room for it here. All three translations seem to point to this posture being relatively "static" (though I think it's fair to say that, when wrestling, being static means you're getting beaten), and it is also rather explicitly stated that you are waiting for your opponent in this position. I would not, however, characterize this as a passive or "defensive" stance. "Porta di ferro is malice filled" seems to suggest that this stance is more threatening than it might appear, which seems reminiscent of how Joachim Meyer likes to use his extended Pflug position; to threaten the enemy by making them aware you are ready to counter them.



The stance itself is both basic and strong. Knees bent and weight sunk down to prevent most leg based takedowns, but the arms, though held downwards, are still held slightly forward to cover the lower lines in case any attacks on the legs are made. This seems (to me) to be a stance tailor-made against aggressive attackers who like to rely on going for lower-line targets like the hips or legs to try and unbalance you. From my previous wrestling experience, the placement of the hands and the use of the guard serve several purposes:



1.) Making yourself ready for an incoming attack (for VERY obvious reasons).

2.) Controlling what actions your opponent can take.



That second one might not seem immediately clear, but it's very similar to essentially everything we do when taking a guard with sword/dagger/whatever. Think of it this way: when taking a guard, you are constraining the possible successful movements your opponent is capable of making. If you are in coda lunga stretta with a sidesword, it is relatively unlikely that your opponent will try to strike a riverso at you, simply because you are more covered on that side. It is instead likely that he will throw mandritti or stoccati at you in the areas where you are open. In this way, the guard has drastically limited the possibility of success for your opponent, and in that way you have partially controlled him; the same goes for wrestling posta (positions).



When in porta di ferro, you are guarding your hips and legs very well, meaning that your opponent is facing a strong defense if they decide to chance it and crash into you with force ("those who oppose me will always end up in pain and suffering" - Colin Hatcher translation), this also means that, if you are facing a smart opponent, he will not attack you where you are strongest ("attack where there are no defenses" -Sun Tzu). This means that you have essentially forced your opponent to attack up high, avoiding your strength and going for the higher openings (as in using attacks to the head to bring you down). In this way you have not only protected yourself, but almost forced him to go high which, if used properly, can be a tactic useful for leading your enemy into a trap. You defend yourself in one position to bait the enemy to attack elsewhere, meanwhile he is entirely clueless that you wanted him to attack there in the first place, meaning you have doubly controlled him in the fight.



This is why I think porta di ferro is useful as both a (pseudo) defensive stance, but also a deceptive position, used to lure your opponent in so that you can finish him off with "all your strength".

Sorry about not getting to this sooner, but around the time I started this topic, finals week was looming, so I was focused on that. Also, I'm lazy, have I mentioned that?So, let's take a look at Fiore's third wrestling position: porta di ferro, the Iron Gate.Pisani Dossi Translation: "If with cunning you will not conquer me, I believe, That with my strength I will make you ill or worse."Getty Translation: "In porta di ferro I wait for you without movement in order to earn the presa (hold) with all my own ability. The play of Abrazare (wrestling) is my art. And of spear, axe, sword and dagger a great part. Porta di ferro is with malice filled. Who counters me I always give contention and pain. And to you that counters me then the presa I earn, with the strong presa I will make you go to ground."Colin Hatcher translation: I wait for you without moving in Porta di Ferro, ready to grapple with all of my skill..."My current interpretation(s): I'm always one for debate, but I'm not sure there is any room for it here. All three translations seem to point to this posture being relatively "static" (though I think it's fair to say that, when wrestling, being static means you're getting beaten), and it is also rather explicitly stated that you are waiting for your opponent in this position. I would not, however, characterize this as a passive or "defensive" stance. "Porta di ferro is malice filled" seems to suggest that this stance is more threatening than it might appear, which seems reminiscent of how Joachim Meyer likes to use his extended Pflug position; to threaten the enemy by making them aware you are ready to counter them.The stance itself is both basic and strong. Knees bent and weight sunk down to prevent most leg based takedowns, but the arms, though held downwards, are still held slightly forward to cover the lower lines in case any attacks on the legs are made. This seems (to me) to be a stance tailor-made against aggressive attackers who like to rely on going for lower-line targets like the hips or legs to try and unbalance you. From my previous wrestling experience, the placement of the hands and the use of the guard serve several purposes:1.) Making yourself ready for an incoming attack (for VERY obvious reasons).2.) Controlling what actions your opponent can take.That second one might not seem immediately clear, but it's very similar to essentially everything we do when taking a guard with sword/dagger/whatever. Think of it this way: when taking a guard, you are constraining the possible successful movements your opponent is capable of making. If you are in coda lunga stretta with a sidesword, it is relatively unlikely that your opponent will try to strike a riverso at you, simply because you are more covered on that side. It is instead likely that he will throw mandritti or stoccati at you in the areas where you are open. In this way, the guard has drastically limited the possibility of success for your opponent, and in that way you have partially controlled him; the same goes for wrestling posta (positions).When in porta di ferro, you are guarding your hips and legs very well, meaning that your opponent is facing a strong defense if they decide to chance it and crash into you with force ("those who oppose me will always end up in pain and suffering" - Colin Hatcher translation), this also means that, if you are facing a smart opponent, he will not attack you where you are strongest ("attack where there are no defenses" -Sun Tzu). This means that you have essentially forced your opponent to attack up high, avoiding your strength and going for the higher openings (as in using attacks to the head to bring you down). In this way you have not only protected yourself, but almost forced him to go high which, if used properly, can be a tactic useful for leading your enemy into a trap. You defend yourself in one position to bait the enemy to attack elsewhere, meanwhile he is entirely clueless that you wanted him to attack there in the first place, meaning you have doubly controlled him in the fight.This is why I think porta di ferro is useful as both a (pseudo) defensive stance, but also a deceptive position, used to lure your opponent in so that you can finish him off with "all your strength".

A former member Posted 1/23/14 10:03 AM

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