Aeromi Profile Blog Joined August 2012 France 14177 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-16 13:03:23 #1 WCS 2017





I/ WCS 2016 system.



I won’t hide the fact that I do not like WCS 2016 system with cutting the WCS Challenger, Premier League but also cutting down one GSL and one SSL. The system won’t be changed until early 2017 so let’s discuss how we can as a community improves the biggest championship of StarCraft.





I won’t hide the fact that I do not like WCS 2016 system with cutting the WCS Challenger, Premier League but also cutting down one GSL and one SSL. The system won’t be changed until early 2017 so let’s discuss how we can as a community improves the biggest championship of StarCraft. A/ WCS points system.



First of all I would like to talk about WCS points. I do not like the fact that Korea has its own WCS points system. WCS is supposed to be a world class tournament and by creating two different systems you broke the idea of a world championship because one system is better than the other. All foreigners can play in GSL/SSL qualifiers if they are living in Korea while only a few Korean players can get a visa and compete in WCS tournaments.



First of all I would like to talk about WCS points. I do not like the fact that Korea has its own WCS points system. WCS is supposed to be a world class tournament and by creating two different systems you broke the idea of a world championship because one system is better than the other. All foreigners can play in GSL/SSL qualifiers if they are living in Korea while only a few Korean players can get a visa and compete in WCS tournaments. B/ WCS regions



Now let’s talk about the WCS circuits and eligible regions:

Europe, NA, Latin America, China, Oceania and SEA and Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau.



There are 6 differents regions and each of them is really unique. The European region is the healthier scene with strong local scenes such as the Polish, French, German or Swedish one. For the first season of WCS in Europe only 6 out of 28 players were not full time. The European region is the strongest one outside of Korea.



The NA one is not known as the greatest one, Polt and Hydra carried the region last year. There are a lot of issues with NA region because almost every Korean player with a visa is playing in NA except ForGG which do not let rookies play in WCS because they are either defeated by Korean players or better NA players such as Scarlett, HuK or Kane.



The Latin American region is really weak if you take the top 10 players in the region. MajOr and Kelazhur are always qualyfing for WCS Premier League while Jimrising and CatZ are stuck in Challenger League.



China is a strong scene with great players but unfortunately almost no one streams Chinese tournaments and players are rarely playing in foreign tournaments. There is an old but also a new scene emerging and players are willing to improve by playing on the Korean server or playing in tournament such as Leifeng Cup which was created to allow Chinese players face against top Korean.



Oceania, SEA and Japan is a weird scene. Despite having great players like PiG, iaguz or Probe the fact they can rarely play in tournaments outside WCS itself is not helping to attract viewers for this scene. There are a lot of tournaments in the SEA scene with OSC supporting it and it’s great to see that more and more players are willing to play in these tournaments.



Last but not least Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. This scene is almost unknown, only Sen and Has are known. The scene has shrunk a lot the past two years with TeSL stopping the SC2 teamleague and Flash Wolves dropping its SC2 division. Most of the Taiwanese players are now playing for Chinese teams which is great. Hong Konk and Macau are inexistent in the SC2 scene.



Now let’s talk about the WCS circuits and eligible regions:Europe, NA, Latin America, China, Oceania and SEA and Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau.There are 6 differents regions and each of them is really unique. The European region is the healthier scene with strong local scenes such as the Polish, French, German or Swedish one. For the first season of WCS in Europe only 6 out of 28 players were not full time. The European region is the strongest one outside of Korea.The NA one is not known as the greatest one, Polt and Hydra carried the region last year. There are a lot of issues with NA region because almost every Korean player with a visa is playing in NA except ForGG which do not let rookies play in WCS because they are either defeated by Korean players or better NA players such as Scarlett, HuK or Kane.The Latin American region is really weak if you take the top 10 players in the region. MajOr and Kelazhur are always qualyfing for WCS Premier League while Jimrising and CatZ are stuck in Challenger League.China is a strong scene with great players but unfortunately almost no one streams Chinese tournaments and players are rarely playing in foreign tournaments. There is an old but also a new scene emerging and players are willing to improve by playing on the Korean server or playing in tournament such as Leifeng Cup which was created to allow Chinese players face against top Korean.Oceania, SEA and Japan is a weird scene. Despite having great players like PiG, iaguz or Probe the fact they can rarely play in tournaments outside WCS itself is not helping to attract viewers for this scene. There are a lot of tournaments in the SEA scene with OSC supporting it and it’s great to see that more and more players are willing to play in these tournaments.Last but not least Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. This scene is almost unknown, only Sen and Has are known. The scene has shrunk a lot the past two years with TeSL stopping the SC2 teamleague and Flash Wolves dropping its SC2 division. Most of the Taiwanese players are now playing for Chinese teams which is great. Hong Konk and Macau are inexistent in the SC2 scene. C/ 2015 WCS system was great



With the 2015 system every region had the opportunity to be able to play the biggest championship and with the season system it allowed to show new players but also consistency for viewers. Following Has run in WCS was really fun because we knew that he was going to cheese and it was really untertaining. With the 2016 system there are a lot of defaults in my opinion. First some qualifiers were not streamed in English. How are you supposed to create a story with players qualifying in their regions then playing against the world if people are not even aware of the tournament? I know that bigger regions are going to have English streams but I find sad that some regions are not shown on stream.



One of the most important things of WCS 2016 is not letting Korean players who do not own a visa plays in tournament such as DreamHack. I do not like that, separating the best of the best of your game is not going to help other players to improve. I understand that viewers want to cheer for their favorites which are often European or American players. But watching Korean vs Korean game in an IEM/DH format is really fun too and also foreign vs Korean is really good. Harstem vs HyuN was a nice match to see even though Harstem lost pretty badly against HyuN at DreamHack Tours.



Also with this decision you cut a lot of storyline possible, Korean vs Korean, Korean vs foreign can make great stories such as Polt vs Stephano, Mvp vs NesTea at Blizzcon, Scarlett vs Bomber for exemple too.



I know that I criticized a lot in the past but here I would like to see for WCS 2017.



With the 2015 system every region had the opportunity to be able to play the biggest championship and with the season system it allowed to show new players but also consistency for viewers. Following Has run in WCS was really fun because we knew that he was going to cheese and it was really untertaining. With the 2016 system there are a lot of defaults in my opinion. First some qualifiers were not streamed in English. How are you supposed to create a story with players qualifying in their regions then playing against the world if people are not even aware of the tournament? I know that bigger regions are going to have English streams but I find sad that some regions are not shown on stream.One of the most important things of WCS 2016 is not letting Korean players who do not own a visa plays in tournament such as DreamHack. I do not like that, separating the best of the best of your game is not going to help other players to improve. I understand that viewers want to cheer for their favorites which are often European or American players. But watching Korean vs Korean game in an IEM/DH format is really fun too and also foreign vs Korean is really good. Harstem vs HyuN was a nice match to see even though Harstem lost pretty badly against HyuN at DreamHack Tours.Also with this decision you cut a lot of storyline possible, Korean vs Korean, Korean vs foreign can make great stories such as Polt vs Stephano, Mvp vs NesTea at Blizzcon, Scarlett vs Bomber for exemple too.I know that I criticized a lot in the past but here I would like to see for WCS 2017. II/ WCS 2017 system.



A/ Bring back the 2015 WCS league.



First of all, please bring back the WCS Challenger and Premier League. Even though this system is not perfect it allows strong players to make a living with StarCraft but also fresh blood to get some exposure and money.



Following WCS qualifiers is one of my favorite moment of the year StarCraft-wise. Following players from your country of player you like and rooting for them is great. Being able to watch streams of your own language and casters being really excited is something I want to hear. Imagine Raynor is one map away from qualifying for WCS Challenger and Vasa is casting. A lot of people are going to watch Vasa stream because he’s going to be emotionally invested in his casting. Raynor is qualyfing for WCS Challenger is a great thing even though I don’t think he can win against Bunny, Snute, Nerchio or even Bly in a BO5. But you know what? It can create a story, a player losing in Challenegr the first 2 seasons and qualifying for Premier League the last season.



Premier League is fine, playing every games in offline allows more depth in the storytelling. Does it work everytime? Hell no but for a tournament that important playing everything in an offline format is a must have and it’s great to have one. I don’t have anything to add really on the format of the Premier League except maybe that doing playoffs in a venue and creating a show with StarCraft would be great but overall Premier League is excellent.



First of all, please bring back the WCS Challenger and Premier League. Even though this system is not perfect it allows strong players to make a living with StarCraft but also fresh blood to get some exposure and money.Following WCS qualifiers is one of my favorite moment of the year StarCraft-wise. Following players from your country of player you like and rooting for them is great. Being able to watch streams of your own language and casters being really excited is something I want to hear. Imagine Raynor is one map away from qualifying for WCS Challenger and Vasa is casting. A lot of people are going to watch Vasa stream because he’s going to be emotionally invested in his casting. Raynor is qualyfing for WCS Challenger is a great thing even though I don’t think he can win against Bunny, Snute, Nerchio or even Bly in a BO5. But you know what? It can create a story, a player losing in Challenegr the first 2 seasons and qualifying for Premier League the last season.Premier League is fine, playing every games in offline allows more depth in the storytelling. Does it work everytime? Hell no but for a tournament that important playing everything in an offline format is a must have and it’s great to have one. I don’t have anything to add really on the format of the Premier League except maybe that doing playoffs in a venue and creating a show with StarCraft would be great but overall Premier League is excellent. B/ Supporting local tournaments and rookies.



Let’s talk now about one of the most if not the most important thing for me for WCS 2017. Supporting local scene and rookies. There tournaments made to be able to support local scene such as Ladder Heroes for NA, Underdogs for the French scene, ESL Meisterschaft for the German scene or Leifeng Cup for the Chinese scene. Does it work? Of course it works, look at Underdogs winners, it’s Lilbow, Dayshi, MarineLorD and PtitDrogo which are the new generation in France. ESL Meisterschaft allowed ShoWTimE, Lambo, HeRoMaRinE or GunGFuBanDa to make money while not always qualyfing for WCS Challenger League. There are other local scene such as the Polish one with local tournaments.



Also brand like OSC allow weaker scene to be able to play against eachother but also against better scene. For example OSC players are willing to play against best players of the NA scene and it’s a great thing to see because they want to improve and they can make money doing it with the bounty system. I really really really want to see Blizzard supporting scene by sponsoring tournaments or brands like OSC, ESL Meisterschaft or Underdogs because these tournaments are allowing fresh blood to get some experience (online or offline). You can restrict the access to the tournament by only allowing non WCS players and WCS Challenger league player and it will create 3 different levels :

-The WCS premier player is making a living of the game, he plays at a top level.

-The WCS Challenger player is not always making a living with the game but he’s pretty good and he can play local tournament which can allow him to win money and go fulltime to be able to be a WCS premier league player.

-The non WCS player, he can try to qualify for WCS, he can play local tournaments but also online tournament with qualifiers for example.



If there is no local tournament in the scene you can create one with Blizzard support. By giving 40 000$ for each region for every season it costs a total of 360 000$ and allow local scene to be able to develop. Some scenes already have local tournaments with the help of broadcasting companies such as BasetradeTV, for NA, the Chinese stream has GPL and Leifeng Cup.



Let’s talk now about one of the most if not the most important thing for me for WCS 2017. Supporting local scene and rookies. There tournaments made to be able to support local scene such as Ladder Heroes for NA, Underdogs for the French scene, ESL Meisterschaft for the German scene or Leifeng Cup for the Chinese scene. Does it work? Of course it works, look at Underdogs winners, it’s Lilbow, Dayshi, MarineLorD and PtitDrogo which are the new generation in France. ESL Meisterschaft allowed ShoWTimE, Lambo, HeRoMaRinE or GunGFuBanDa to make money while not always qualyfing for WCS Challenger League. There are other local scene such as the Polish one with local tournaments.Also brand like OSC allow weaker scene to be able to play against eachother but also against better scene. For example OSC players are willing to play against best players of the NA scene and it’s a great thing to see because they want to improve and they can make money doing it with the bounty system. I really really really want to see Blizzard supporting scene by sponsoring tournaments or brands like OSC, ESL Meisterschaft or Underdogs because these tournaments are allowing fresh blood to get some experience (online or offline). You can restrict the access to the tournament by only allowing non WCS players and WCS Challenger league player and it will create 3 different levels :-The WCS premier player is making a living of the game, he plays at a top level.-The WCS Challenger player is not always making a living with the game but he’s pretty good and he can play local tournament which can allow him to win money and go fulltime to be able to be a WCS premier league player.-The non WCS player, he can try to qualify for WCS, he can play local tournaments but also online tournament with qualifiers for example.If there is no local tournament in the scene you can create one with Blizzard support. By giving 40 000$ for each region for every season it costs a total of 360 000$ and allow local scene to be able to develop. Some scenes already have local tournaments with the help of broadcasting companies such as BasetradeTV, for NA, the Chinese stream has GPL and Leifeng Cup. C/ Allowing Korean rookies to get some money.



The most important subject of this blog is succeeding to attract Korean rookie players to make some money.

Olimoley is doing an excellent job with Olimoleague, it allows new players to get some money. If you use the 3 levels used for WCS tournament you allow Code A players and player who did not qualify for SSL and GSL to be able to compete in tournaments. I know that the Korean scene is really strong and a lot of pro players do not qualify for one or both leagues but it would allow new Korean players to be able to get some money by winning or doing well in online tournament. I know that there are tournaments made by Gisado or AfreecaTV and KeSPA for rookie players but most of them are not watched by anyone. What happened in you make a Playhem like system with daily tournaments and create other tournaments while upgrading Olimoleague?



If you create a 300$ daily tournament it will cost you 109500 $. It’s only a third of the budget for other regions. With the 240 000$ left you can create other big online or leagues with players. Of course some old players are going to get a decent chunk of this money but I’m pretty sure you can attract new players that are willing to go fulltime with this system.

Last but not least, please bring back 3 seasons of GSL and SSL. With only two seasons so many players are going to retire or leave the game because losing in January means that you get 2k $ but you do not have any tournaments left in Korea.



The Korean scene is getting older and older and there are only a few players who managed to make good results and one of the reason is that SC2 is not big enough to go fulltime in Korea. Solar was the last rising star in Korea and it has been a year and a half. The last good player that was relatively unknown is MyuNgSiK. There are almost no B teams in KeSPA teams and the player pool is getting smaller and smaller at a top level because progamers are old and they need to retire to do the miltary service.





The most important subject of this blog is succeeding to attract Korean rookie players to make some money.Olimoley is doing an excellent job with Olimoleague, it allows new players to get some money. If you use the 3 levels used for WCS tournament you allow Code A players and player who did not qualify for SSL and GSL to be able to compete in tournaments. I know that the Korean scene is really strong and a lot of pro players do not qualify for one or both leagues but it would allow new Korean players to be able to get some money by winning or doing well in online tournament. I know that there are tournaments made by Gisado or AfreecaTV and KeSPA for rookie players but most of them are not watched by anyone. What happened in you make a Playhem like system with daily tournaments and create other tournaments while upgrading Olimoleague?If you create a 300$ daily tournament it will cost you 109500 $. It’s only a third of the budget for other regions. With the 240 000$ left you can create other big online or leagues with players. Of course some old players are going to get a decent chunk of this money but I’m pretty sure you can attract new players that are willing to go fulltime with this system.Last but not least, please bring back 3 seasons of GSL and SSL. With only two seasons so many players are going to retire or leave the game because losing in January means that you get 2k $ but you do not have any tournaments left in Korea.The Korean scene is getting older and older and there are only a few players who managed to make good results and one of the reason is that SC2 is not big enough to go fulltime in Korea. Solar was the last rising star in Korea and it has been a year and a half. The last good player that was relatively unknown is MyuNgSiK. There are almost no B teams in KeSPA teams and the player pool is getting smaller and smaller at a top level because progamers are old and they need to retire to do the miltary service. D/ Let the community invest in the scene.



The crowdfunding model is used for DotA 2 tournaments such as The International or The Summit 4. A lot of viewers are willing to spend a few bucks to raise the prizepool or to have an impact on a tournament. I wish some major tournaments would be part-funded by the community. The demography of a StarCraft II viewer is someone who's either a student or someone who's working. Even though people are not rich they want to invest on the game they love and it's sad to see that it did not happen yet for official WCS tournament.



If you do not want to just give money to a company that is producing a tournament you could also buy skins. For example, skins for CCs, hatcheries, Nexus, pylons, queens or supply depot. It would be awesome to be able to support team we cheer for which maybe will allow team to recruit more players. If your skin costs 10 $ then 5$ goes to the team, 3$ goes to Blizzard and 2$ goes to the creator of the skin or allow a tournament to be crowdfunded.





I know that my system is far from being perfect, I’m open to debate about it and I would like other people opinions. Thanks for taking your time to read this blog.



The crowdfunding model is used for DotA 2 tournaments such as The International or The Summit 4. A lot of viewers are willing to spend a few bucks to raise the prizepool or to have an impact on a tournament. I wish some major tournaments would be part-funded by the community. The demography of a StarCraft II viewer is someone who's either a student or someone who's working. Even though people are not rich they want to invest on the game they love and it's sad to see that it did not happen yet for official WCS tournament.If you do not want to just give money to a company that is producing a tournament you could also buy skins. For example, skins for CCs, hatcheries, Nexus, pylons, queens or supply depot. It would be awesome to be able to support team we cheer for which maybe will allow team to recruit more players. If your skin costs 10 $ then 5$ goes to the team, 3$ goes to Blizzard and 2$ goes to the creator of the skin or allow a tournament to be crowdfunded.I know that my system is far from being perfect, I’m open to debate about it and I would like other people opinions. Thanks for taking your time to read this blog. https://twitter.com/DrAeromi | Updates on live tournaments: @StarCrafteSport

munch Profile Joined July 2014 Mute City 2358 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-16 13:34:30 #2 Regarding Korea, a simple fix would be bringing back Code A in tournament format. Maybe keep the challenger-style up and down matches we have at the moment; winner goes to Code S, loser goes to Code A. Everyone gets tournament / stage time, and losing a match doesn't mean you're completely done in Korea for 6 months.



The only question is making sure that you've got enough broadcast time once PL comes and we get 5 days of SC2 a week again, but frankly it's not like we're running out of time at the moment. You could even do it with OSL style groups that aren't played out all in the same night, and have them as warm up acts for Code S with a couple matches a night Writer Form is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive

OtherWorld Profile Blog Joined October 2013 France 17332 Posts #3 While I do like the way you think - especially the local tournament part with the non-Premier player restriction -, I have three questions :

(1) When you are talking about 2017 WCS, are you taking as a given the fact that the WCS system will still exist next year, or do you have real insider info about it?



(2) While you certainly have more knowledge than me about the cost of running tournaments, don't you think the reason for WCS 2016 is simply that organizing three seasons of GSL+SSL+WCS Premier is just costing waaaaay too much compared to the game's viability? On the same subject, don't you think that the decrease of the player pool in Korea is a normal consequence of the same thing? I mean, looking it up quickly, there are about 80/90 full-time Korean SC2 players. That's about the same number as full-time male professional tennis players. Now compare the difference in business size, media impact and international reknown. Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com

Aeromi Profile Blog Joined August 2012 France 14177 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-16 17:55:46 #4 (1) When you are talking about 2017 WCS, are you taking as a given the fact that the WCS system will still exist next year, or do you have real insider info about it?

I don't have any infos about WCS, it's just the way I would like to see WCS.



I don't have any infos about WCS, it's just the way I would like to see WCS. (2) While you certainly have more knowledge than me about the cost of running tournaments, don't you think the reason for WCS 2016 is simply that organizing three seasons of GSL+SSL+WCS Premier is just costing waaaaay too much compared to the game's viability? On the same subject, don't you think that the decrease of the player pool in Korea is a normal consequence of the same thing? I mean, looking it up quickly, there are about 80/90 full-time Korean SC2 players. That's about the same number as full-time male professional tennis players. Now compare the difference in business size, media impact and international reknown.

I know that running a tournament like WCS costs a lot of money but WCS is a marketing product and some big companies such as Microsoft were sponsoring WCS last year. With more money you attract more players but also more sponsors and more viewers. And tennis players are making a living with tennis while a lot of Korean pros are not even making more than 500$/month salary. I know that running a tournament like WCS costs a lot of money but WCS is a marketing product and some big companies such as Microsoft were sponsoring WCS last year. With more money you attract more players but also more sponsors and more viewers. And tennis players are making a living with tennis while a lot of Korean pros are not even making more than 500$/month salary. https://twitter.com/DrAeromi | Updates on live tournaments: @StarCrafteSport

Boucot Profile Blog Joined October 2011 France 15997 Posts #5 Ctrl + f schedule, 0 results found

1/5 blog, would not recommend.



More seriously, I agree that something should be done to help new players. In Korea but also everywhere else and that's how France became a big nation thanks to Underdogs after 1 or 2 years regretting the departure of its best player.



About the WCS format, I will hold my judgement for now as I think it's important to know how it turns out. The only thing I can objectively criticize is the removal of a GSL/SSL season.



However, I definitely think that the 2015 WCS format was by far the best we've had so far and I don't get why it was changed. It was balanced, logical and allowed one of the greatest stories of the last years, a foreigner winning a WCS trophy. Some people prefer the 2012 one, I can understand why but besides the European final which is still one of the best tournaments we've ever had in SC2 I was not very convinced by the rest.



And like you, I absolutely love WCS qualifiers, I'm often more excited by the qualifiers themselves than the early rounds of the main tournament. I want to see the frenchies getting a spot and it was more likely to happen when 28 Challenger spots were up for grab rather than 8 or 10 this year for a single elimination bracket.



By the way, if Challenger League gets revived next year, make it a group stage. Bo5 are exciting but far too random and too dependent of the matchups. Former SC2 writer for Millenium - twitter.com/Boucot

Darkdwarf Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Sweden 959 Posts #6 The only thing I'd like changed from the 2015 system was to make Challenger and the Qualifiers more extensive. The chinese version of the qualifiers last year was the best, imo. Build them into national championships! Teams: IM, Jin Air, Invictus || Players: Maru, GuMiho, INnoVation, Ryung, sOs, Squirtle, NaNiwa, Has, Zoun, Life, Rogue, Dark

y0su Profile Blog Joined September 2011 Finland 7871 Posts #7 2015 felt like WCS took over from all the usual weekend events. I'm looking forward to get the points and stories from the circuit as well as having them region locked (I've been saying locked weekend events would be good for the foreign scene for a while). I also think that overall this is a much better use of the money Blizzard has dedicated to competitive sc2.



I do hope we see a few more events in KR but overall I like the framework more in '16.

AWalker9 Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United Kingdom 7227 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-16 22:45:52 #8 Pretty much agree with everything you've said, the current system basically deters any Koreans who like SC2 but aren't a pro to go for it and try. Without more support the KR scene will slowly die. soOjwa has returned to smite all that stand in his way

Topher_Doll Profile Joined August 2015 United States 76 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-17 16:17:07 #9 I was a big fan of 2015's WCS system, the addition of some of 2016's new changes (minimum games for non-regional players, more support for offline events, and I LOVE the GSL/SSL championship, etc) and supporting smaller, more regional tournaments like Gauntlet, OSC and RIval is the best way to go.



Very good ideas here, love it. I'm a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

Nerchio Profile Joined October 2009 Poland 2628 Posts #10 With the new system you gain a lot of storylines and before Korean vs non-korean lost all meaning for me. Progamer "I am the best" - Nerchio , 2017.

Crot4le Profile Joined June 2013 England 2927 Posts #11 D/ Let the community invest in the scene.





Everyone's been asking for this for ages. A Valve type compendium for StarCraft. I know I'd buy it. But alas nothing ever has come from it so I don't see why they would now all of a sudden.



It is definitely needed though. Everyone's been asking for this for ages. A Valve type compendium for StarCraft. I know I'd buy it. But alas nothing ever has come from it so I don't see why they would now all of a sudden.It is definitely needed though. Massive fan of Axiom eSports | Crotale#992 | Twitter: @Crot4le

OtherWorld Profile Blog Joined October 2013 France 17332 Posts #12 On January 17 2016 18:34 Nerchio wrote:

With the new system you gain a lot of storylines and before Korean vs non-korean lost all meaning for me.

I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?



Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?



Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?



Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?



Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.



But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :

-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly

-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly

-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level

-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com

y0su Profile Blog Joined September 2011 Finland 7871 Posts #13 On January 17 2016 20:22 OtherWorld wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 17 2016 18:34 Nerchio wrote:

With the new system you gain a lot of storylines and before Korean vs non-korean lost all meaning for me.

I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?



Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?



Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?



Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?



Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.



But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :

-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly

-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly

-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level

-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene

+ Show Spoiler + Nerchio won one of the first ever HotS beta tournaments - against a Korean (ForGG).

They are legendary because they won. Period. Doesn't matter who they won against. Players that win (and lose) now will drive a new set of storylines in 2016. No, we probably won't celebrate the victories the same way we might if it would have been overcoming the odds vs a Korean but give it a few events and see where we are.

They are legendary because they won. Period. Doesn't matter who they won against. Players that win (and lose) now will drive a new set of storylines in 2016. No, we probably won't celebrate the victories the same way we might if it would have been overcoming the odds vs a Korean but give it a few events and see where we are.

Nerchio Profile Joined October 2009 Poland 2628 Posts #14 On January 17 2016 20:22 OtherWorld wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 17 2016 18:34 Nerchio wrote:

With the new system you gain a lot of storylines and before Korean vs non-korean lost all meaning for me.

I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?



Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?



Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?



Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?



Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.



But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :

-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly

-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly

-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level

-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene

I just responded to this line that OP said - I just responded to this line that OP said - Also with this decision you cut a lot of storyline possible, Korean vs Korean, Korean vs foreign can make great stories such as Polt vs Stephano, Mvp vs NesTea at Blizzcon, Scarlett vs Bomber for exemple too.

If anything the storylines will be more epic because in the past foreigner vs korean was seen on a weekly basis and that was really boring. Now even if "we" get stomped by koreans it will be more entertaining. Also you can't judge this system before we see how good foreigners will be. If anything the storylines will be more epic because in the past foreigner vs korean was seen on a weekly basis and that was really boring. Now even if "we" get stomped by koreans it will be more entertaining. Also you can't judge this system before we see how good foreigners will be. Progamer "I am the best" - Nerchio , 2017.

Ansibled Profile Joined November 2014 United Kingdom 2376 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-17 14:14:31 #15 I disagree that watching people get stomped once a year is more entertaining than every week (or few months). The LoL world championship is always very anti-hype unless you buy into the idea that foreigner (Western really though) teams stand a chance, but in reality the title is a foregone conclusion.



Show up at Blizzcon only to get eliminated early isn't very interesting. If the current system means that foreign players are more competitive with Koreans then I guess it'll be fun, but I don't see why it would mean that. 'StarCraft is just a fairy tale told to scare children actually.'

yolteotl Profile Joined October 2011 France 76 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-17 14:13:32 #16 So. Seeing games of a lower level all the year long and then seeing those lower "winner" being stomped by the real pros will create more epic storylines?



You are funny Nerchio but you should just admit you are totally biased by a system that will give you a MASSIVE advantage on players who are better than you.



I'll probably do the same if I was in your position, but I would have the honesty to admit it.

y0su Profile Blog Joined September 2011 Finland 7871 Posts #17 I guess I'm the only one that's excited to see my local/national heroes compete with a legitimate chance to win?



Also, "lower level games" are usually a lot better (entertaining) than one sided games. I'd rather have those all year. I do agree that I do not look forward to the Blizzcon opening round stomps (see my signature). But if that means that we get more entertaining games for the eight months before it I'm happy.



Of course, we haven't even had the first tournament yet so maybe we can give it a chance before moving on to 2017?

PPN Profile Joined August 2011 France 247 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-17 15:42:26 #18 On January 17 2016 22:38 Nerchio wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 17 2016 20:22 OtherWorld wrote:

On January 17 2016 18:34 Nerchio wrote:

With the new system you gain a lot of storylines and before Korean vs non-korean lost all meaning for me.

I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?



Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?



Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?



Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?



Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.



But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :

-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly

-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly

-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level

-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene I know that you defend the new system because it is better for a select group of ~20 top foreigners of which you are part of, but how in hell does preventing Koreans from meeting foreigners (except at BlizzCon) favor storylines?Why is Stephano legendary? Because he beat all foreigners at WCS EU 2012, or because he regularly won tournaments with Koreans in it? Because he had a rivalry with one or two foreign players, or because he had one with Polt or MKP?Why is NaNiwa legendary? Because he dominated foreign players, or because of his GSL results? Because of him raging at players in foreign-only qualifiers, or because of him leaving the stage at Katowice vs a Korean?Why is Snute legendary? Because he regularly beat foreign players, or because he beat herO with his signature SH style, almost took down Flash, and one year later killed sOs and Rain with aggro play?Koreans are the "gold standard" of StarCraft, and they will stay so until a real infrastructure develops in Europe. We measure how good a player is by his ability to beat Koreans (hello, Grubby Line). Excluding the gold standard because it is the gold standard is called lazyness, and can only lead to dangerous results.But I guess for twenty or so foreign players, the new system is awesome as it :-Allows them to gain more money, more regularly-Allows them to get more short-term exposure, more regularly-Makes it more difficult for non-Premier level foreigners to access to the top level-Accelerates the decline of the Korean scene

I just responded to this line that OP said - Show nested quote +

Also with this decision you cut a lot of storyline possible, Korean vs Korean, Korean vs foreign can make great stories such as Polt vs Stephano, Mvp vs NesTea at Blizzcon, Scarlett vs Bomber for exemple too.

If anything the storylines will be more epic because in the past foreigner vs korean was seen on a weekly basis and that was really boring. Now even if "we" get stomped by koreans it will be more entertaining. Also you can't judge this system before we see how good foreigners will be. I just responded to this line that OP said -If anything the storylines will be more epic because in the past foreigner vs korean was seen on a weekly basis and that was really boring. Now even if "we" get stomped by koreans it will be more entertaining. Also you can't judge this system before we see how good foreigners will be.



Not sure how honest you are on that one. You have every right to like the current system since it is better for you and a few others, but damn be honest about how anti-competition it is.



There is no way the new system will create more storylines. How can you even pretend? We are even further than before from having the highest level of play in WCS. We don't have the "battle against all odds" kind of storylines anymore until Blizzcon (and I don't see how we are not very likely to have a stompfest as regions are expected to get weaker than Korea with their forced departure from local ladder and our lack of structure to train in a Korean-like fashion). We don't even have the qualifiers for some regions streamed anymore. And we have fewer tournaments/seasons to create these storylines. How is this supposed to create more? Are you believing in miracles or what? Not sure how honest you are on that one. You have every right to like the current system since it is better for you and a few others, but damn be honest about how anti-competition it is.There is no way the new system will create more storylines. How can you even pretend? We are even further than before from having the highest level of play in WCS. We don't have the "battle against all odds" kind of storylines anymore until Blizzcon (and I don't see how we are not very likely to have a stompfest as regions are expected to get weaker than Korea with their forced departure from local ladder and our lack of structure to train in a Korean-like fashion). We don't even have the qualifiers for some regions streamed anymore. And we have fewer tournaments/seasons to create these storylines. How is this supposed to create more? Are you believing in miracles or what?

jalstar Profile Blog Joined September 2009 United States 8122 Posts #19 On January 16 2016 22:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:

Regarding Korea, a simple fix would be bringing back Code A in tournament format. Maybe keep the challenger-style up and down matches we have at the moment; winner goes to Code S, loser goes to Code A. Everyone gets tournament / stage time, and losing a match doesn't mean you're completely done in Korea for 6 months.



The problem with that in 2011 was that there wasn't enough turnover, and you had Ensnare in Code S while the Code A finals was Mvp vs Bomber.



If you did that I'd hope that the top 8 of Code A automatically replace everyone who got 4th place in their Code S group, and that there would be Bo5 matches between 9th-16th in Code A and everyone who got 3rd in their Code S group. The problem with that in 2011 was that there wasn't enough turnover, and you had Ensnare in Code S while the Code A finals was Mvp vs Bomber.If you did that I'd hope that the top 8 of Code A automatically replace everyone who got 4th place in their Code S group, and that there would be Bo5 matches between 9th-16th in Code A and everyone who got 3rd in their Code S group.

munch Profile Joined July 2014 Mute City 2358 Posts #20 On January 18 2016 04:39 jalstar wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 16 2016 22:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:

Regarding Korea, a simple fix would be bringing back Code A in tournament format. Maybe keep the challenger-style up and down matches we have at the moment; winner goes to Code S, loser goes to Code A. Everyone gets tournament / stage time, and losing a match doesn't mean you're completely done in Korea for 6 months.



The problem with that in 2011 was that there wasn't enough turnover, and you had Ensnare in Code S while the Code A finals was Mvp vs Bomber.



If you did that I'd hope that the top 8 of Code A automatically replace everyone who got 4th place in their Code S group, and that there would be Bo5 matches between 9th-16th in Code A and everyone who got 3rd in their Code S group. The problem with that in 2011 was that there wasn't enough turnover, and you had Ensnare in Code S while the Code A finals was Mvp vs Bomber.If you did that I'd hope that the top 8 of Code A automatically replace everyone who got 4th place in their Code S group, and that there would be Bo5 matches between 9th-16th in Code A and everyone who got 3rd in their Code S group.



That's just because it used to be that the top 16 of code S went straight into next season's Code S, meaning that you only needed to get out of your group to maintain your place. Nowadays it's just the top 8 (and hey, who knows if they're gonna keep resetting at the start of each year).



Top 8 would be a bit ridiculous, as it's meant to be a weaker competition. Maybe top 2 getting Code S spots, and rest of the top 8 going directly into next season's up and downs, bypassing the qualifiers? That's just because it used to be that the top 16 of code S went straight into next season's Code S, meaning that you only needed to get out of your group to maintain your place. Nowadays it's just the top 8 (and hey, who knows if they're gonna keep resetting at the start of each year).Top 8 would be a bit ridiculous, as it's meant to be a weaker competition. Maybe top 2 getting Code S spots, and rest of the top 8 going directly into next season's up and downs, bypassing the qualifiers? Writer Form is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive

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