wheelchairs Profile Joined February 2010 United States 144 Posts #1 I just really felt good about all the things I learned watching the zvz, zvt, and zvp sections of 12 weeks w/ pros. I took notes and have already been incorporating a lot of the strategies in my play and it is working out very well. None of these things are really new, but I just wanted to throw up some of the tips or timings that helped me, maybe they will help others evaluate their current builds to make any changes necessary to be more successul laddering.





ZvT:



1.15 hatch/15 pool is Rets standard, safer would be 14 hatch/13 pool

2. scout patterns for overlords should avoid middle of map/main unit paths

3. patrol drone @ bottom of ramp if close positions

4. if 2 rax, ready to pull drones and surround first marines, 1 spine at natural.

5. Always sac overlord to scout tech@ 5:00-6:00

6. watch for hellion switch. (If factory w/ tech lab, 2 factories, or fact + reactor, etc)

7. always make 3rd queen for creep spread/defense.

8. if hellion, sim city natural w/ baneling nest + evo + warren (whichever ones you need)

to block pathing, block ramp w/ queens.

9. if starport + techlab, evo + 1 spore in each mineral line, 3 queens at least.

10. if bio heavy, baneling nest + lair fairly early for baneling speed. always baneling

speed before spire vs bio.

11. take 3rd base w/ baneling speed.

12. after third base, get evo if you dont have

13. upgrades vs. terran: Always carapace 1st. Later in game melee atk if needed.

14. if mech heavy, spire + roach warren w/ roach speed. pump roaches (thor/tank/hellion)

15. if getting more than 5-6 mutas, upgrade flying attack.

16. need 4x gas up as soon as early game defending is done and you can reasonably

transition into taking your gases, (banelings/muta/infestor/hive all very gas heavy)

17. Take additional bases if you win a nice battle, i.e. marine + hellion attack held off,

take your 3rd.

18. tank/thor heavy = broodlords

19. ideal late game vs upgraded max army: broodlords/ ultra+infestor

20. surround your base w/ overlords to spot for drops.

21. always wait to engage if you can, (unless the positioning is too good to turn down or

you need to pressure)

22. macro hatch is good due to # of ling/baneling you need vs terran.

bonus: always get the INCREDIBLE ZERG BALL OF DEATH ++ 60 QUEENS + 1 ULTRA,

THEY CANNOT KILL IT!!!!! (lol jk). but thats all i got for terran.





ZvP

1. 14 pool/15 gas: standard build

2. 15 hatch usually fine on most maps in current meta for econ opening

3. Roach is cornerstone of the matchup (stated by Ret, an opinion, but from a pro)

4. safe is to get zergling speed fast, then roach warren.

5. scout early w/ lings, sac. overlord early (~4:00) might get out alive.

6. early game keep supply cap open high (i.e. have say 30/50) zergling will see any

early attack coming, roaches take 27 seconds to build, will be done in time, but

CANNOT be supply blocked or you will die.

7. 4 gate = few roaches in front of them, lots of zerglings run around to get stalkers, kill

pylon ASAP, 1-3 spines at natural.

8. just 1 gas for quite a while, need lots of minerals vs early protoss.

9. macro hatch is good, only IF needed. Use it vs. heavy attacks off 2 base, otherwise

just take 3rd.

10. Vs. Forge FE, can roach pressure if it looks promising, or just take 3rd base early

(even before lair says Ret)

11. roaches NEED speed when lair is done.

12. muta/ling is possible, more APM required and close eye on compositions needed.

13. stargate openings: evo +spores in minerals early, then hydras, then spire for

corruptors later (if commited air)

14. 4 gate: usually chronoboosting core, zealot then stalker opening.

3 gate FE: usually not as much chrono on core, zealot then sentry opening.

15. start lair at least by the time starting 3rd base hatch

16. around 3rd base time, start 2x evo: ranged attack + carapace.

17. when start lair, get 2nd + 3rd gas around same time.

18. after 3rd, if robo bay, start spire for corruptors.

19. can use roach burrow for map control in mid-game

20. strong gate based FE builds like to attack early game w/ several sentries + 5-10

zealots, this is ideal timing for roach burrow to be used.

21. vs ground army w/ colossus: 8-10 corruptors is ideal.

vs army + colossus + void rays, need more corruptors, overmake them to wipe.

22. pressure after 3rd base when near max to reduce # collosus and sentry mana. refill

roach #s immediately.

23. later in game, keep watch for dark shrine, 1 spore + 1 spine at each expo.

24. watch around your expos for warp pylons, common to harass w/ these.

25. if no stargate, broodlords are good.

26. immortals = hydras

27. hydras NEED range upgrade





ZvZ



1. 15 hatch/15 pool + gas is Rets standard.

2. watch for speedling all-ins.

3. scout constantly for baneling nest/roach warren.

4. remove 1st overlord before their queen spawns.

5. Safest build if decent with micro/macro = roach/speedling.

6. constantly scout with group of lings.

7. check their drone saturations often, cannot get behind in econ, unless you are

attacking early.

8. if he doesn't expand, probably banelings.

9. vs banelings: Spine crawler at natural, fairly close to ramp. Snipe banelings w/

roaches, keep speedlings running around.

10. can be overrun by mass speedlings while going roach. building placement helps,

see day 9 daily on new zvz build for roach opening.

11. can easily die if making too many drones.

12. if they just have a few roaches, keep supply open and drone hard, 27 second

roaches will spawn in time to hold if you have the larva.

13. macro hatch is good for early game ling/roach/drone production.

14. can take 3rd if you really feel safe about it, or he takes 3rd first.

15. Lair is usually end game tech.

16. muta can win if caught off guard, but easily countered.

17. small corridors favor hydras behind roaches w/ range upgrade.

18. watch for overseers around your base.

19. if planning on attacking w/ roaches, contaminating hatcheries for a few minutes

before the attack and swing numbers in your favor.

20. have overseer at home if they have warren + lair for burrowed roaches.

21. infestors>mutas



Plz add anything you can think of that i missed or addt'l info to help other zergs as well.

**Go Swarm!!!

Grapefruit Profile Joined November 2010 Germany 438 Posts #2 Thanks for sharing. Starcraft 2 is funny, everybody picks the race, which he considers to be the weakest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Schnullerbacke13 Profile Joined August 2010 Germany 1199 Posts #3 cool stuff :-) 21 is half the truth

etceteraetcetera Profile Joined June 2009 United States 38 Posts #4 very helpful actually; i wanted to watch a bunch of these but i really haven't had the time to commit, and i'm really not in need of tons of specifics, so these general structures to remember are great. thanks a lot.

wheelchairs Profile Joined February 2010 United States 144 Posts #5 glad it could help

Advocado Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Denmark 940 Posts #6 Thank you for summing up all these great points. The videos from MrBitter are amazing and offer a lot of insight why the current game play like it plays. http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2

Chinesewonder Profile Joined November 2010 Canada 354 Posts #7 I feel for some maps, the FE is just way too dangerous for ZvZ. I like to use day9's 1 base play for this and if I see my opponent FE, then I might do the same, or go for a timing push.

iChau Profile Joined December 2010 United States 1209 Posts #8 What do you mean by immortals = hydra?



Just simply immortals are as great as hydras?

Sorry for my ignorance lol. us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/

Sablar Profile Blog Joined December 2010 Sweden 878 Posts #9 Nice list..



ZvT:

"21. always wait to engage if you can, (unless the positioning is too good to turn down or

you need to pressure)"



I think you can often catch Ts off guard when they're moving out with their (usually) marine, tank, thor force, and they will have it pretty clumped up. Once they set up and have time to preemptively spread their marines outside your base it's just so hard to break it. Requires banelings to be ready already when they move out though, and I don't play on the highest level.

khanofmongols Profile Joined January 2011 517 Posts #10 iChau if the opponent makes immortals you should build hydras due to their high attack speed.in other words hydras counter immortals

Xanbatou Profile Blog Joined February 2010 United States 805 Posts #11 On February 07 2011 11:36 Sablar wrote:

Nice list..



ZvT:

"21. always wait to engage if you can, (unless the positioning is too good to turn down or

you need to pressure)"



I think you can often catch Ts off guard when they're moving out with their (usually) marine, tank, thor force, and they will have it pretty clumped up. Once they set up and have time to preemptively spread their marines outside your base it's just so hard to break it. Requires banelings to be ready already when they move out though, and I don't play on the highest level.



I have to agree. If they have siege tanks, I think its much better to run out and engage them in the open. I have lost games because I waited for them to come to me and they ended up sieging outside my natural. Maybe obvious, but for whatever reason, I have always waited for them to come to me first. With siege tanks, I think that's a bad idea... I have to agree. If they have siege tanks, I think its much better to run out and engage them in the open. I have lost games because I waited for them to come to me and they ended up sieging outside my natural. Maybe obvious, but for whatever reason, I have always waited for them to come to me first. With siege tanks, I think that's a bad idea...

DuncanIdaho Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 465 Posts #12



However, I'm still not convinced infestors > mutas. Sure, infestors can fungal mutas, but eventually the infestors will run out of energy and regardless the muta player (with some careful micro) can get some decent map control. I mean, I guess it's how you play them. If the mutas are meant to win by killing the opponent outright, sure, infestors are gonna shut that down. However, mutas are great for harrassing drones/solo-queens/stray-olords/undefended-expos and making the other zerg turtle, giving me, the muta player, freedom to expand and perhaps some temporary map control.



I'm open for discussion though, what makes going infestor > going muta is a mystery to me at the moment, so please enlighten me, guys. Nice thread, I agree with most of it.However, I'm still not convinced infestors > mutas. Sure, infestors can fungal mutas, but eventually the infestors will run out of energy and regardless the muta player (with some careful micro) can get some decent map control. I mean, I guess it's how you play them. If the mutas are meant to win by killing the opponent outright, sure, infestors are gonna shut that down. However, mutas are great for harrassing drones/solo-queens/stray-olords/undefended-expos and making the other zerg turtle, giving me, the muta player, freedom to expand and perhaps some temporary map control.I'm open for discussion though, what makes going infestor > going muta is a mystery to me at the moment, so please enlighten me, guys. The spice must flow... Grammar lesson: "than" is used for quantity comparisons, "then" is used for chronological statements. The next forum user who says, "I'd do such and such, THAN I'd do such and such else," is gonna make me cry...

Alleged Profile Joined January 2011 Australia 4 Posts #13 I assume "11. take 3rd base w/ baneling speed." means to take a 3rd when baneling speed completes? Or should we just run a whole bunch of banelings with speed over to where we want our 3rd to be?

ThE_OsToJiY Profile Blog Joined May 2008 Canada 1167 Posts #14 Yea this would be basic zerg play, but try not to oversimplify it, just because it is common doesn't mean its the best for you. Mix it up, see what works and what doesn't. Create your own playstyle, and adapt to the game. "always creating a 3rd queen" in zvt is way too generalized, but instead point out the advantages of doing so, but at a cost.. @ostojiy

tre Profile Joined December 2010 8 Posts #15 Thanks for summing this all up Wheelchairs. Helped me out!

teh_longinator Profile Joined March 2010 Canada 725 Posts #16 This page is really helpful. I, personally, have bookmarked this thread in my browser, and will write it out in my notes and keep it in mind as I play and try to get better.

sideshowRob Profile Joined January 2011 3 Posts #17 Thanks, that's good stuff man!! Just curious; what is your ranking?

rEalGuapo Profile Joined January 2011 Germany 810 Posts #18



I'm not sure about that, I like +1/+2 Attack early

and later on getting a second Evo and researching all upgrades.



Think Catz said he likes getting +1 melee attack first as well, not so sure though.



Also On February 07 2011 15:41 Alleged wrote:

I assume "11. take 3rd base w/ baneling speed." means to take a 3rd when baneling speed completes? Or should we just run a whole bunch of banelings with speed over to where we want our 3rd to be? I assume "11. take 3rd base w/ baneling speed." means to take a 3rd when baneling speed completes? Or should we just run a whole bunch of banelings with speed over to where we want our 3rd to be?



Ur not funny you're NOT!

Please use your Brain and find out the answer yourself.



User was warned for this post 13. upgrades vs. terran: Always carapace 1st. Later in game melee atk if needed.I'm not sure about that, I like +1/+2 Attack earlyand later on getting a second Evo and researching all upgrades.Think Catz said he likes getting +1 melee attack first as well, not so sure though.AlsoUr not funny you're NOT!Please use your Brain and find out the answer yourself.

rEalGuapo Profile Joined January 2011 Germany 810 Posts #19 On February 07 2011 15:58 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:

Yea this would be basic zerg play, but try not to oversimplify it, just because it is common doesn't mean its the best for you. Mix it up, see what works and what doesn't. Create your own playstyle, and adapt to the game. "always creating a 3rd queen" in zvt is way too generalized, but instead point out the advantages of doing so, but at a cost..





Unless one is over 2.5k Maser's league I would recommend to "oversimplify" because it is hard to think of the pros and cons while playing for every little thing.



I'm relatively high masters and I think ALWAYS getting a third queen in ZvT and most of the time in ZvP is great, you get a lot of creepspread, transfuse wich helps immensly against any air attacks.

And once you get your third, your extra queen stands ready to Inject the second ur 3rd is finished.

so.... no harm in that.



You will hardly lose a game because you miss 6 Zerglings after minute 6 or have one or two transfuses instead of one or two extra roaches. Unless one is over 2.5k Maser's league I would recommend to "oversimplify" because it is hard to think of the pros and cons while playing for every little thing.I'm relatively high masters and I think ALWAYS getting a third queen in ZvT and most of the time in ZvP is great, you get a lot of creepspread, transfuse wich helps immensly against any air attacks.And once you get your third, your extra queen stands ready to Inject the second ur 3rd is finished.so.... no harm in that.You will hardly lose a game because you miss 6 Zerglings after minute 6 or have one or two transfuses instead of one or two extra roaches.

NeonFox Profile Joined January 2011 2373 Posts #20 14 gas 14 pool or 14 pool 14 gas are both widely used ZvZ openings as well, but more in a reactive and agressive way, you have to adapt if your opponent fast expands, you will be the one putting on pressure and deciding when.

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