Today

8:07pm

BlissfulHeretic

hey

Congrats on the grad school application :)

8:19pm

TBM friend

Hey, thanks. I was talking with my cousin, sorry.

8:20pm

BlissfulHeretic

np :)

Where did you apply?

8:21pm

TBM friend

Just BYU. I thought of other places, but in the end, I barely had time for the one application. If I don't get in, then I'll apply for other schools next year.

8:21pm

BlissfulHeretic

Cool

I hope you'll get in :)

What do you plan on studying?

8:22pm

TBM friend

Thanks! Marriage ad family therapy.

8:22pm

BlissfulHeretic

Awesome

8:22pm

TBM friend

:)

I have a question that I have to be honest with you about. It might be hurtful, and for that, I apologize in advance. May I proceed?

8:26pm

BlissfulHeretic

Shoot.

8:27pm

TBM friend

Okay. So, I feel like our friendship has been based in our intellectual discussions that we have always had since we were children. Would you agree with that?

8:27pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yeah, I would. I miss that.

8:31pm

TBM friend

Okay, so, the question I find myself asking is, what is there to discuss anymore? Between us, I mean? I know your views, and you know mine. While I can make the distinction between YOU and your views, and think YOU are a great person, you know that I don't just disagree with your views -- I find them disgusting. In many ways I feel like you have not only betrayed the faith you were raised in, but our friendship. While our friendship has been wry intellectual, it was always rooted in the context of our fellowship in the gospel. At least it was for me.

8:32pm

TBM friend

But my dilemma is, I don't want you to be abandoned. I don't want you to feel like I am turning my back on you.

I've done it to others, and it was not only selfish, but painful for myself

8:33pm

BlissfulHeretic

I don't know what to say.

8:35pm

TBM friend

I value you, as a person. I do. But we don't have a framework for our friendship that I am comfortable with. At least in the way of just going, hanging out ad shooting the breeze. Does that make sense at all?

8:35pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yeah, that makes sense.

What do you find disgusting?

8:38pm

TBM friend

I feel like you have blinded yourself to all the goodness in your life. How blessed you have been. It really makes me very sad that you have lost your belief in God. You have a beautiful family that lives you deeply, and though I don't know for sure, it appears that they have been very supportive of you as their child even though you no longer practice the faith which is at the center if their wry hearts.

8:38pm

TBM friend

*very hearts, not wry hearts

What an odd typo

How can you account for spiritual experiences that I know you have had in your life?

It isn't that you left the church, so much as I just feel like you have abandoned your upbringing. The church is certainly important to me, of course. But our friendship is not requisite on your membership in it.

However, does not the scripture "even the very elect shall be deceived" not just rig in your ears?

I think of you as an elect person. You're so smart. And good. And kind.

8:43pm

BlissfulHeretic

People of all faiths have spiritual experiences that they take to be evidence of their respective religions' truth. I have felt what Mormons call the Holy Ghost on many occasions. I have felt it in church. I have also felt it when watching films (including R-rated ones), reading books, helping others, hearing of the kindness of others, and being helped myself. I've felt it when reading atheist blogs, even.

8:43pm

BlissfulHeretic

It's a powerful emotional response. But that isn't enough to convince me that something is true.

8:44pm

TBM friend

I can completely believe that. And I get it, I suppose. But to me, life without God is just so... Lifeless. What is your purpose now? What is sacred to you?

Because it feels to me as though nothing is sacred to you anymore, ad I'd like to be proven wrong on that point.

I'm not trying to attack you and I really hope it doesn't feel that way. I just want to know.

8:49pm

BlissfulHeretic

Just a sec, my touchpad is going crazy and I need to hunt down my mouse. :P

8:49pm

TBM friend

Ok

8:53pm

BlissfulHeretic

Okay.

There is more than one way to understand the concept of "meaning." Actually, philosophically speaking, there are four main ways.

The first way, and the way that most religious people follow, is to fit your life into a larger sort of tapestry. Mormons describe this as the plan of salvation, or God's plan. You see your life as part of something bigger.

A second way to approach the concept is to claim that the question, "what is the meaning of life", is itself inherently meaningless. The question has as much semantic meaning as "why are unicorns hollow?" It just makes no sense.

A third way is the nihilist view. This is the view that many theists, such as yourself, assume that atheists hold. This is the idea that the concept of "meaning" is sound, but that life has none.

The fourth view, and my own way, is this.

8:59pm

BlissfulHeretic

I see meaning as something that you create for yourself. Instead of a tapestry, life is like a mural. Meaning is found by different people in different things. Some people find it in family. Some find it in knowledge. Some find it in consumerism. Some find it in kindness to humanity. Meaning is what makes your life worth living, to you. It doesn't matter what other people find meaning in, because you aren't living their lives and they aren't living yours.

9:00pm

BlissfulHeretic

http://i.imgur.com/6axI3.jpg <---this comic that I posted awhile back sums it up beautifully.

9:01pm

TBM friend

So, life on this lone planet in the edges if our galaxy is just a happy accident of nature and we are free to squander or cherish it as we please?

9:01pm

BlissfulHeretic

That's one way of putting it, yes.

Life is what you make of it.

I once saw it described like this: "It's cold out here, but the stars are just beautiful."

9:03pm

TBM friend

I have heard this views before. I also make it a point to not assume what sort if view others take of these four, but I do find myself feeling rather out of touch with anything that excludes God.

9:04pm

BlissfulHeretic

I can understand that. It's a completely different way of looking at it.

For what it's worth, I see the first view of meaning as restrictive and, ironically, meaningless.

9:04pm

TBM friend

It makes no sense to me that this all happened against ridiculous cosmic odds for no inherent reason.

What is restrictive about your life having a grander purpose?

9:05pm

BlissfulHeretic

That's assuming that all this was "meant" to happen, so to speak. But it's kind of like a puddle of water saying "this little hollow in the ground was made just for me!"

The restrictive part is the fact that it's prescribed.

I could go into more detail about LDS theology specifically, but it applies to all religions that subscribe to that view.

9:06pm

TBM friend

Explain to me what you mean by prescribed in this context

9:08pm

BlissfulHeretic

The best way to do that would be to use a specific example, and I'll use Mormonism since that's what we're both the most familiar with.

9:08pm

TBM friend

Ok

9:10pm

BlissfulHeretic

The purpose of life as per LDS theology is to find our way back to God. This involves, essentially, satisfying a number of conditions--baptism, confirmation, endowment, temple marriage, and enduring to the end. Fulfilling those things requires one to do certain things like pay 10% of your income to the church, abstain from certain beverages, be honest, don't kill anyone, etc. In the end, all this enables us to 1) reunite with our families in the afterlife and 2) create worlds of our own, beginning the cycle all over again.

9:11pm

BlissfulHeretic

That is the only possible meaning to life if you subscribe to that view. If you don't find that paradigm meaningful in itself, you're out of luck.

9:12pm

TBM friend

Okay. So, what about that paradigm lacks meaning for you? Do you find family life unimportant or dreary or something?

Does the concept of improving yourself to the point if perfection and god hood leave a bad taste in your mouth?

What more could you want, is what I'm asking.

9:15pm

BlissfulHeretic

Well, specific to Mormonism, I'm not keen on polygamy. I also don't like the idea of an afterlife where I produce billions of spirit children, and then send them to earth where I will be too sacred to talk about.

Additionally, I don't subscribe to the same view of "perfection."

9:17pm

TBM friend

Hm. Well, the reasons you cite aren't firm and fast doctrine. I think that that's a lot of speculation, but I can validate that feeling. Tell me more about your view of perfection.

9:17pm

BlissfulHeretic

I don't think perfection really exists, honestly.

I think that an important part of happiness is learning to embrace imperfection.

"Perfection" in human terms is a difficult thing

It makes sense to talk about a perfect square or a perfect triangle. But what about a perfect symphony or a perfect painting?

Or a perfect person?

I think people are more like paintings than triangles.

9:23pm

TBM friend

I feel like that is true, but it only applies to mortality as per Mormonism. If we don't understand accept imperfection in an intimate way, how can we become compassionate gods?

9:24pm

BlissfulHeretic

Which opens up a whole new can of worms having to do with the concept of compassionate godhood. But, back to the original question

9:25pm

BlissfulHeretic

I think that the real problem I have with the theological version of meaning is its lack of agency. It doesn't allow for the idea of multiple good choices. You can choose to follow God, or you are by default following Satan. There is no middle ground. There's only "more good" and "less good." There's no room for "different, but equally good."

9:32pm

TBM friend

I would disagree. I can see why you say that, but I just completely disagree. Yes, the commandments, codes, and covenants we live by are specific, and unyielding. But our lives all take so many different paths as members of the church. Ultimately, whatever God's will is for our lives is what is good. For some Mormons, that means football on Sunday is a-okay. For others, that means that they wear their Sunday clothes all day Sunday. For some it means that both parents will have full time careers. For others, it means Mr. Mom. We are not to judge one another's choices. We are just to support each other on the path to our Heavenly Father. That path is a continuum- it doesn't really matter WHERE you are on it, so long as you are on it.

9:34pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yes, and I can see how you feel that way. And I can see how a lot of people see atheism as meaningless. The thing is, whether or not I find meaning in something doesn't change the truth of it. I came to my conclusions about Mormonism and theism before I came to grips with my idea of meaning. It was something I struggled with initially. For a long time I wanted there to be something more than this life. It's an attractive idea. It has many problems in my mind, but it is attractive. My point, however, is that life without theism is far from meaningless. It's just that you have to find your own meaning instead of having it served to you on a silver platter, so to speak.

9:40pm

BlissfulHeretic

Does that make sense?

9:44pm

TBM friend

Okay, sure. What I am going to say next may sound very insulting, just a heads up. But I just need to get this out. I just find it very arrogant to presume that you (speaking directed at atheists in general) can definitively say there is no God. To say that you are so much smarter and wiser than everyone else, and to act as though religious peoples are brainwashed. You aren't as bad of an offender on the latter grounds, but I feel you have always regarded yourself as more intelligent and therefore more right than others. Please correct me if I am wrong there. As far as the existence of God, if we are taking a somewhat agnostic perspective, doesn't it make more sense to just bet there is one? What happens if there is, and you find that you have squandered the great gift of life from him? And if you believe in God and there isn't one, no harm, no foul, right? But if you believe in God, and there is one, you at least get some credit no matter what kind of God you believe in (per Mormonism).

9:45pm

BlissfulHeretic

Okay, so that's basically two things you've said. 1) It's arrogant to say you know that there's no god, and 2) Pascal's Wager

I'll respond to both of them

9:46pm

TBM friend

Thank you.

9:47pm

BlissfulHeretic

For the first one. For this to make sense, I'll need to explain some terms. Basically "atheist/theist" and "agnostic/gnostic" deal with two different things. Atheist/theist is how one answers the question, "do you believe in god(s)," and "agnostic/gnostic" answers the question, "can we know for sure?"

9:48pm

BlissfulHeretic

http://i.imgur.com/vqFfl.png This diagram gets used a lot to explain it

9:48pm

BlissfulHeretic

So you can be a gnostic or agnostic atheist, or a gnostic or agnostic theists.

9:48pm

TBM friend

I understand that.

9:49pm

BlissfulHeretic

Okay, so I don't need to explain it.

9:49pm

TBM friend

Pascal's wager is based in the idea if not knowing for sure, correct?

Thus the use of the term "agnostic"

9:50pm

BlissfulHeretic

Pascal's wager basically says that if you don't know for sure that God exists, then it's in your best interests to believe.

So I'm an agnostic atheist. Most atheists are; you'll find the odd gnostic, but the agnostic atheists tend to jump all over them (never mind the theists).

9:50pm

TBM friend

Yes I know, but that implies fundamental doubt

9:51pm

BlissfulHeretic

Basically my position can be summed up as, I have no evidence to believe in a god, therefore I have no reason to.

9:51pm

TBM friend

Okay.

9:51pm

BlissfulHeretic

I maintain that the idea of God existing isn't falsifiable at all--you can't prove it one way or the other. That leads right into Pascal's Wager.

For one thing, Pascal's Wager assumes that you can force yourself to believe on a pragmatic basis, or that you can lie to God. Most people would reject both statements.

9:52pm

TBM friend

Yes it does

Okay

9:53pm

BlissfulHeretic

For another, it assumes that there's only one idea of God under consideration. But to be completely fair, you'd have to believe in all gods. You'd have to believe in Elohim, Yahweh, Baal, Odin, Ra, and every other god, in order to avoid each god's respective damnation.

If Elohim is real, then you'd want to go to the Celestial Kingdom. But if Odin's your man, then you want to go to Valhalla.

This is obviously impossible.

9:54pm

TBM friend

I guess I don't see a belief in God as anything other than pragmatic. I mean it means more than mere practicality, but it IS practical.

9:55pm

BlissfulHeretic

And lastly, since you can't prove God either way, theism falls into the same class as other supernatural beings. I can't prove to you that unicorns don't exist, but you'd never tell me that I have to prove that they don't.

(in order for my lack of belief to be justified)

9:56pm

TBM friend

Hm, I see your point with the multiple gods thing, but I feel like Mormonism waives that. You don't have to believe in OUR god to get some sort of reward. You just have to be a generally good person.

9:57pm

BlissfulHeretic

But you don't have to be a generally good person--you have to accept Mormonism and be baptized, endowed, and sealed.

9:57pm

TBM friend

And most people agree that goodness is related to how you treat other people.

9:57pm

BlissfulHeretic

Additionally, most atheists are good people, so that kind of negates the point.

9:58pm

TBM friend

No, not for the Terrestrial and Telestial glories.

9:59pm

BlissfulHeretic

So, why bother believing on a pragmatic basis at all?

9:59pm

TBM friend

And it does not negate the point. Do you think I would find any pleasure in you not achieving hat I perceive to be your full potential? If I believed in a fiery hell, do you really think I would want you to burn there?

Because you can have so much more.

10:00pm

BlissfulHeretic

No, I'm saying that if all it takes is being a good person, why bother subscribing to a specific belief system?

10:00pm

TBM friend

See above comment.

You can have the Universe. All knowledge. All goodness. All love. Even all power. Why would anyone pass that up?

Isn't it the dream of an empiricist to understand everything? Be able to do and create anything?

10:01pm

BlissfulHeretic

This is going to come across as very blunt and possibly offensive, so I apologize in advance--because there's no evidence that it exists.

10:02pm

TBM friend

The universe?

10:02pm

BlissfulHeretic

No, that you will have the universe.

That you will become a god.

Santa teaches that if you believe in him, he will bring you presents. Who wouldn't want that?

10:06pm

TBM friend

Oh, I see. Well this is where argument becomes useless. I certainly value science and believe it has a purpose and good aims. I can see why many think that science and religion conflict. But I simply do not believe that they conflict, and that believe also gives me the liberty of not needing empirical evidence for everything I declare to believe in. Faith and truth are the same thing to me. That might sound blind to you, but by not requiring evidence, I receive it daily.

10:06pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yes, I understand that you believe that. I just have different standards for what constitutes evidence.

And please understand, I respect your and everybody else's right to believe what you choose to. I may not agree or even respect the beliefs themselves, but I respect you as a person and your right to believe as you see fit.

10:09pm

TBM friend

Sure. And those definitions conflict. Obviously. I just honestly find it fascinating that people can go through the same sort of searching and doubt that you went through and come out embracing religion instead if rejecting it. the idea that when my human capabilities are maxed out, I have supernatural help on tap is very comforting.

10:10pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yeah, definitely. I can definitely see that.

10:10pm

TBM friend

Thank you. I respect you and your beliefs too.

10:11pm

BlissfulHeretic

On the other hand, there's something very empowering about knowing that you can handle what comes your way. The idea that all those times when, as a theist, you thought you had supernatural help pulling you through--that was you. You're strong.

10:11pm

TBM friend

The real reason this is difficult for me at all is because of the fundamental change you have gone through. I mean, you are the same person, but you aren't.

10:12pm

BlissfulHeretic

You said earlier that I seem arrogant, and you're right. I can be a pompous jerk at times. I try not to, and I'm improving, but it is a weakness of mine. Sometimes I get vindictive pleasure in "whooping" people intellectually. I'm not proud of that. But it is one of my many faults.

10:14pm

TBM friend

Well, I thank you for admitting it. I have never been as skilled at rhetoric as you, and I'll never pretend to be, but it really irks me when you treat me like I am less intelligent. I am not ignorant or undereducated, you know. Though, on the same token, I do appreciate your willingness to explain things. Just try not to be such an imp about it :P

10:15pm

BlissfulHeretic

haha, I'm aware of that. I do respect you. :)

And, I think something else deserves clarification.

10:16pm

TBM friend

Yes?

10:16pm

BlissfulHeretic

I don't have a problem with people who are religious. But I do have a problem when people are hurt, and while many people disagree, I see some aspects of religion as harmful. So I make no bones about criticizing those things. But if no one is being hurt, then I really don't care what other people believe.

10:17pm

BlissfulHeretic

Also, that criticism is directed at the religion itself, not at the people who follow it.

10:17pm

TBM friend

Okay sure. I'm not ignorant to the idea if religion hurting people. Your complaint makes sense. What is your specific beef?

10:18pm

BlissfulHeretic

Oh, nothing specific. I just wanted to clarify that. The list includes things that I know you are passionate about on the other side.

Gay marriage, abortion, religion in government, evolution.

10:19pm

TBM friend

So, by hurting people, you mean something along the lines of infringing on their human rights? By your definition, not mine, of course.

10:20pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yeah, I'd definitely include that.

As well as more obvious things that we probably agree on, like female genital mutilation and child marriage.

10:21pm

TBM friend

Haha, yes we definitely agree on those. Are there others beyond human rights issues?

10:21pm

BlissfulHeretic

Intellectual repression. It's particularly a problem in the Bible Belt of the US. For example, are you familiar with the Large Hadron Collider?

10:22pm

TBM friend

I am not.

I assume it has something to do with subatomic particles?

10:23pm

BlissfulHeretic

Well, there's a major scientific theory in particle physics called string theory. (I don't pretend to understand it very well--[fiancé] is a major science geek, which is how I know as much as I do.) One way that scientists are working on testing the theory is trying to find a certain type of particle.

10:23pm

BlissfulHeretic

The official name is the Higgs-Boson particle, but it got nicknamed the God Particle.

10:23pm

TBM friend

Right right. Okay thought oh were going this way. Continue.

10:24pm

BlissfulHeretic

That happened because one of the scientists who came up with the theory called it the "goddamn particle." His publisher wouldn't allow that, so it got shortened to "god particle."

Yeah

10:24pm

TBM friend

Okay

10:24pm

BlissfulHeretic

Anyway, Texas would be a perfect place to build a huge hadron collider. Lots of land. Plans went ahead for it, but a lot of religious people in the area got their panties in a bunch because they thought it had something to do with disproving God.

10:25pm

TBM friend

Oh that is completely silly.

10:25pm

BlissfulHeretic

Long story short, they had to build it in Europe. There's not as much land there so they had to build it far smaller.

I heard about that and was like "nooooo!!! That would have been so cool!"

There's also another, more personal example.

10:28pm

TBM friend

Yeah it would have. I can't blame them though. I see that more as sticking it to the "man" than really trying to undercut science. Many Christians feel threatened by the government, not just science. It may have been more of spite than an actual belief that the collider was trying to disprove God. But I ultimately agree. That's retarded.

10:28pm

BlissfulHeretic

People who leave religion--like me--are often socially ostracized when they do. I've been lucky, but I've known people who have been kicked out of their homes for it as teenagers.

It's hard. It's hard because I can't really blame my friends and family who are religious, believing as they do. I understand their beliefs, having held them once, and would probably respond similarly in their place. So I'm forced to blame the religion.

10:31pm

TBM friend

Yes. That is true. And I disagree with that practice. I feel like it is unbecoming of any religious person to treat another person that way. Beyond unbecoming - it's wrong. I would blame human fallibility in this case, but I can see why you say you blame the religion.

10:31pm

BlissfulHeretic

Yeah

10:33pm

TBM friend

I don't think that a religion does much good if it isn't lived, especially when it is difficult to live it. However, I think religion should also comprehend human fallibility, and be compassionate towards it with being condoning.

10:34pm

BlissfulHeretic

So, did I address your concerns thoroughly?

10:35pm

TBM friend

Yes, except for one thing. You enjoy argument even when it gets vicious. I don't really enjoy argument the same way you do. So, if we were to hang out, what the heck would we do to avoid upsetting each other. Or, I guess just me, since you don't seem upset by this, lol.

10:36pm

BlissfulHeretic

hahaha

Just be polite, like we were this evening?

10:36pm

TBM friend

I guess?

10:37pm

BlissfulHeretic

The great thing about friendship is that it's not a relationship fraught with theological concerns. Awhile back I dated a guy who was Mormon, and we broke up because of our theological differences. It was hard at the time, but in retrospect it was the best thing for both of us. He's now married to a (I presume) nice Mormon girl, and I'm engaged to a wonderful atheist guy. But friendship doesn't have that same dynamic. We can be friends and hold different beliefs.

10:39pm

TBM friend

I just feel like we have largely covered each other's views, and neither one of us is very likely to change them, so it seems that in a friendship that has formerly been based on debate and discussion, there is nothing much to discuss. It seems moot now that there is sufficient understanding.

10:39pm

BlissfulHeretic

There's more in the world to discuss besides religion. And politics.

10:40pm

TBM friend

I never said we wouldn't be friends. I have many friends with different beliefs.

Lol, that is true, but they are sort if what big picture thinkers like you and I always come back to, aren't they?

10:41pm

BlissfulHeretic

Then we agree to disagree. But really, I think we agree on more than both of us usually will admit.

10:42pm

TBM friend

Hm. Well, I'm willing to give it a go. What's life if you don't try to do things that seem hard to you?

10:43pm

BlissfulHeretic

haha, indeed. :)

10:43pm

TBM friend

Thanks for the talk, it was fun :)

10:43pm

BlissfulHeretic

np :)

I promise I'm not a soulless nihilist ;)

10:44pm

TBM friend

I've got early class, so I should go. Lol, and that does hold some comfort. :)

Night BlissfulHeretic.

10:45pm

BlissfulHeretic