Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-05 15:14:48 #1462 edit. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Sn0_Man Profile Joined October 2012 Tebellong 31461 Posts #1463 On June 06 2014 00:13 Torte de Lini wrote:

edit.

wat wat Moderator SCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302

NeoRussia Profile Joined January 2013 Canada 329 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-05 17:11:35 #1464 On June 05 2014 17:10 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 05 2014 17:07 NeoRussia wrote:

Earth spirit needs dagger! AC and maelstrom on ember is lol. Also linken's should be in there somewhere as its more common than bkb on him.



Why dagger?



AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carries

Maelstrom for the proc no? Why dagger?AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carriesMaelstrom for the proc no?



Earth is a positioning based hero with a melee range ultimate, dagger is better than force but both are situational. His roll just isn't enough to make positioning items absolete on him. AC only applies the debuff for a split second unlike desolator, you're basically only using AC to do the initial damage. SoF has more range than aura so you will almost never be in range to spread it it other heroes, and armour and attack speed is worthless on ember, therefore making ember one of the worst AC carriers in the game and also the worst carrier of any aura item including ones that have other benefits like drums. Maelstrom is a cheese item on him because battlefury does everything it does and more, and maelstrom overrides desolator procs so it shouldn't be built with deso. It also only hits once per SoF because it can only proc once the first stops bouncing. Yes maelstrom helps you farm but so does battlefury which also gives ember the regen he needs, without the useless attack speed. The price difference between maelstrom and deso / bfury is not enough to make it viable either. Earth is a positioning based hero with a melee range ultimate, dagger is better than force but both are situational. His roll just isn't enough to make positioning items absolete on him. AC only applies the debuff for a split second unlike desolator, you're basically only using AC to do the initial damage. SoF has more range than aura so you will almost never be in range to spread it it other heroes, and armour and attack speed is worthless on ember, therefore making ember one of the worst AC carriers in the game and also the worst carrier of any aura item including ones that have other benefits like drums. Maelstrom is a cheese item on him because battlefury does everything it does and more, and maelstrom overrides desolator procs so it shouldn't be built with deso. It also only hits once per SoF because it can only proc once the first stops bouncing. Yes maelstrom helps you farm but so does battlefury which also gives ember the regen he needs, without the useless attack speed. The price difference between maelstrom and deso / bfury is not enough to make it viable either. #BUFFEARTH

Ayaz2810 Profile Joined September 2011 United States 1588 Posts #1465 Just wanted to give you another internet high five Torte. I love this. So much info in one place. Keep up the good work bud. Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #1466 On June 07 2014 02:53 Ayaz2810 wrote:

Just wanted to give you another internet high five Torte. I love this. So much info in one place. Keep up the good work bud.



Thank you very much! Thank you very much! https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #1467 On June 06 2014 02:04 NeoRussia wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 05 2014 17:10 Torte de Lini wrote:

On June 05 2014 17:07 NeoRussia wrote:

Earth spirit needs dagger! AC and maelstrom on ember is lol. Also linken's should be in there somewhere as its more common than bkb on him.



Why dagger?



AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carries

Maelstrom for the proc no? Why dagger?AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carriesMaelstrom for the proc no?



Earth is a positioning based hero with a melee range ultimate, dagger is better than force but both are situational. His roll just isn't enough to make positioning items absolete on him. AC only applies the debuff for a split second unlike desolator, you're basically only using AC to do the initial damage. SoF has more range than aura so you will almost never be in range to spread it it other heroes, and armour and attack speed is worthless on ember, therefore making ember one of the worst AC carriers in the game and also the worst carrier of any aura item including ones that have other benefits like drums. Maelstrom is a cheese item on him because battlefury does everything it does and more, and maelstrom overrides desolator procs so it shouldn't be built with deso. It also only hits once per SoF because it can only proc once the first stops bouncing. Yes maelstrom helps you farm but so does battlefury which also gives ember the regen he needs, without the useless attack speed. The price difference between maelstrom and deso / bfury is not enough to make it viable either. Earth is a positioning based hero with a melee range ultimate, dagger is better than force but both are situational. His roll just isn't enough to make positioning items absolete on him. AC only applies the debuff for a split second unlike desolator, you're basically only using AC to do the initial damage. SoF has more range than aura so you will almost never be in range to spread it it other heroes, and armour and attack speed is worthless on ember, therefore making ember one of the worst AC carriers in the game and also the worst carrier of any aura item including ones that have other benefits like drums. Maelstrom is a cheese item on him because battlefury does everything it does and more, and maelstrom overrides desolator procs so it shouldn't be built with deso. It also only hits once per SoF because it can only proc once the first stops bouncing. Yes maelstrom helps you farm but so does battlefury which also gives ember the regen he needs, without the useless attack speed. The price difference between maelstrom and deso / bfury is not enough to make it viable either.



Hey, I'll get back to you on this tomorrow! sorry for the late repyl! Hey, I'll get back to you on this tomorrow! sorry for the late repyl! https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-11 13:40:19 #1468 On June 06 2014 02:04 NeoRussia wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 05 2014 17:10 Torte de Lini wrote:

On June 05 2014 17:07 NeoRussia wrote:

Earth spirit needs dagger! AC and maelstrom on ember is lol. Also linken's should be in there somewhere as its more common than bkb on him.



Why dagger?



AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carries

Maelstrom for the proc no? Why dagger?AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carriesMaelstrom for the proc no?



Earth is a positioning based hero with a melee range ultimate, dagger is better than force but both are situational. His roll just isn't enough to make positioning items absolete on him. AC only applies the debuff for a split second unlike desolator, you're basically only using AC to do the initial damage. SoF has more range than aura so you will almost never be in range to spread it it other heroes, and armour and attack speed is worthless on ember, therefore making ember one of the worst AC carriers in the game and also the worst carrier of any aura item including ones that have other benefits like drums. Maelstrom is a cheese item on him because battlefury does everything it does and more, and maelstrom overrides desolator procs so it shouldn't be built with deso. It also only hits once per SoF because it can only proc once the first stops bouncing. Yes maelstrom helps you farm but so does battlefury which also gives ember the regen he needs, without the useless attack speed. The price difference between maelstrom and deso / bfury is not enough to make it viable either. Earth is a positioning based hero with a melee range ultimate, dagger is better than force but both are situational. His roll just isn't enough to make positioning items absolete on him. AC only applies the debuff for a split second unlike desolator, you're basically only using AC to do the initial damage. SoF has more range than aura so you will almost never be in range to spread it it other heroes, and armour and attack speed is worthless on ember, therefore making ember one of the worst AC carriers in the game and also the worst carrier of any aura item including ones that have other benefits like drums. Maelstrom is a cheese item on him because battlefury does everything it does and more, and maelstrom overrides desolator procs so it shouldn't be built with deso. It also only hits once per SoF because it can only proc once the first stops bouncing. Yes maelstrom helps you farm but so does battlefury which also gives ember the regen he needs, without the useless attack speed. The price difference between maelstrom and deso / bfury is not enough to make it viable either.



I can see how Blink Dagger is situational, but do you think it's a good idea to have both Blink Dagger and Force Staff? I guess I can put them both as situational but it might cause people to skip them both entirely; so I may give them a separate tab; thoughts?



Also, maxing Roll first as an offlane hero (so it'd be different than the mid version); what do you think?



I thought the AC debuff was aura, but I get confused if it is more of on hit, no? I removed it as he had a lot of situational items already, but would love to know the answer to this.



I'll get rid of Maelstrom (oh, apparently it's already gone O_O) I can see how Blink Dagger is situational, but do you think it's a good idea to have both Blink Dagger and Force Staff? I guess I can put them both as situational but it might cause people to skip them both entirely; so I may give them a separate tab; thoughts?Also, maxing Roll first as an offlane hero (so it'd be different than the mid version); what do you think?I thought the AC debuff was aura, but I get confused if it is more of on hit, no? I removed it as he had a lot of situational items already, but would love to know the answer to this.I'll get rid of Maelstrom (oh, apparently it's already gone O_O) https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-13 07:56:47 #1469 edit https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-11 09:59:37 #1470 To-do Guides:

Lycan (Lane)

Are we running out of guides to do? Are we running out of guides to do? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

BluemoonSC Profile Joined November 2010 SoCal 7987 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-11 12:20:22 #1471 NEW GUIDE

Naga Siren (Middle)



Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)

Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout Shield

Early Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of Speed

Core Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal Blade

Situational Items: Radiance

Extension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout ShieldEarly Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of SpeedCore Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal BladeSituational Items: RadianceExtension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel



Do you believe that diffusal is a core item in all situations? IMO in terms of value, a yasha is a better "core" item than a diffusal. sure, it has 10 less agi, but it is 1k cheaper, provides attack speed, and movement speed (which can allow for quicker farming).



As a stepping stone item, I feel like a casual yasha can propel naga towards her other items (including potential for a diffusal, but mostly for manta) especially if you're getting drums and treads before it.



Also - what timing would you recommend for radiance? Is this included in your guide? A lot of naga players try to rush it and wind up getting stomped. Do you believe that diffusal is a core item in all situations? IMO in terms of value, a yasha is a better "core" item than a diffusal. sure, it has 10 less agi, but it is 1k cheaper, provides attack speed, and movement speed (which can allow for quicker farming).As a stepping stone item, I feel like a casual yasha can propel naga towards her other items (including potential for a diffusal, but mostly for manta) especially if you're getting drums and treads before it.Also - what timing would you recommend for radiance? Is this included in your guide? A lot of naga players try to rush it and wind up getting stomped. Sellout @BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #1472 On June 11 2014 21:15 BluemoonSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

NEW GUIDE

Naga Siren (Middle)



Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)

Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout Shield

Early Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of Speed

Core Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal Blade

Situational Items: Radiance

Extension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout ShieldEarly Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of SpeedCore Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal BladeSituational Items: RadianceExtension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel



Do you believe that diffusal is a core item in all situations? IMO in terms of value, a yasha is a better "core" item than a diffusal. sure, it has 10 less agi, but it is 1k cheaper, provides attack speed, and movement speed (which can allow for quicker farming).



As a stepping stone item, I feel like a casual yasha can propel naga towards her other items (including potential for a diffusal, but mostly for manta) especially if you're getting drums and treads before it.



Also - what timing would you recommend for radiance? Is this included in your guide? A lot of naga players try to rush it and wind up getting stomped. Do you believe that diffusal is a core item in all situations? IMO in terms of value, a yasha is a better "core" item than a diffusal. sure, it has 10 less agi, but it is 1k cheaper, provides attack speed, and movement speed (which can allow for quicker farming).As a stepping stone item, I feel like a casual yasha can propel naga towards her other items (including potential for a diffusal, but mostly for manta) especially if you're getting drums and treads before it.Also - what timing would you recommend for radiance? Is this included in your guide? A lot of naga players try to rush it and wind up getting stomped.



Personally, when I get Diffusal; I feel compelled to gank and be active with it and that's why I debated making it situational or core. Then I realized you can just get it for the stats and the mana burn is good even if you are not using the slow and pushing down the lanes and burning any foes that try to stop you is good regardless.



Maybe it should be extension instead though.



Radiance is 18 minutes, but I think smarter people will tell me otherwise.



Hm, maybe Yasha instead of Drums?? Interesting. Personally, when I get Diffusal; I feel compelled to gank and be active with it and that's why I debated making it situational or core. Then I realized you can just get it for the stats and the mana burn is good even if you are not using the slow and pushing down the lanes and burning any foes that try to stop you is good regardless.Maybe it should be extension instead though.Radiance is 18 minutes, but I think smarter people will tell me otherwise.Hm, maybe Yasha instead of Drums?? Interesting. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

BluemoonSC Profile Joined November 2010 SoCal 7987 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-11 13:04:00 #1473 On June 11 2014 21:38 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 11 2014 21:15 BluemoonSC wrote:

NEW GUIDE

Naga Siren (Middle)



Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)

Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout Shield

Early Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of Speed

Core Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal Blade

Situational Items: Radiance

Extension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout ShieldEarly Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of SpeedCore Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal BladeSituational Items: RadianceExtension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel



Do you believe that diffusal is a core item in all situations? IMO in terms of value, a yasha is a better "core" item than a diffusal. sure, it has 10 less agi, but it is 1k cheaper, provides attack speed, and movement speed (which can allow for quicker farming).



As a stepping stone item, I feel like a casual yasha can propel naga towards her other items (including potential for a diffusal, but mostly for manta) especially if you're getting drums and treads before it.



Also - what timing would you recommend for radiance? Is this included in your guide? A lot of naga players try to rush it and wind up getting stomped. Do you believe that diffusal is a core item in all situations? IMO in terms of value, a yasha is a better "core" item than a diffusal. sure, it has 10 less agi, but it is 1k cheaper, provides attack speed, and movement speed (which can allow for quicker farming).As a stepping stone item, I feel like a casual yasha can propel naga towards her other items (including potential for a diffusal, but mostly for manta) especially if you're getting drums and treads before it.Also - what timing would you recommend for radiance? Is this included in your guide? A lot of naga players try to rush it and wind up getting stomped.



Personally, when I get Diffusal; I feel compelled to gank and be active with it and that's why I debated making it situational or core. Then I realized you can just get it for the stats and the mana burn is good even if you are not using the slow and pushing down the lanes and burning any foes that try to stop you is good regardless.



Maybe it should be extension instead though.



Radiance is 18 minutes, but I think smarter people will tell me otherwise.



Hm, maybe Yasha instead of Drums?? Interesting. Personally, when I get Diffusal; I feel compelled to gank and be active with it and that's why I debated making it situational or core. Then I realized you can just get it for the stats and the mana burn is good even if you are not using the slow and pushing down the lanes and burning any foes that try to stop you is good regardless.Maybe it should be extension instead though.Radiance is 18 minutes, but I think smarter people will tell me otherwise.Hm, maybe Yasha instead of Drums?? Interesting.



Depends on how much space is created and if you manage to get a solid gank mid, i would imagine.



Yeah, I totally get the compulsion to gank with mana burn on any hero. It makes solo pushing a lane very difficult for the enemy too, and quite annoying. Whether it is situational or core is definitely debateable.



As for yasha instead of drums, that's certainly a viable substitution. Eventually you'll get rid of the drums anyway, so if you're not running a poverty build, going right into a yasha and letting another player purchase drums might be a strong option.



I think that one of the best parts about the yasha is that it's value allows you to pursue other important items should they be necessary, while still being a strong item by itself.



EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range. Depends on how much space is created and if you manage to get a solid gank mid, i would imagine.Yeah, I totally get the compulsion to gank with mana burn on any hero. It makes solo pushing a lane very difficult for the enemy too, and quite annoying. Whether it is situational or core is definitely debateable.As for yasha instead of drums, that's certainly a viable substitution. Eventually you'll get rid of the drums anyway, so if you're not running a poverty build, going right into a yasha and letting another player purchase drums might be a strong option.I think that one of the best parts about the yasha is that it's value allows you to pursue other important items should they be necessary, while still being a strong item by itself.EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range. Sellout @BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.

-Celestial- Profile Joined September 2011 United Kingdom 1181 Posts #1474 On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:

EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range.





How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?



Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.





Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.



Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.





Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.



Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.





For comparison's sake on the illusions:

Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.



Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.For comparison's sake on the illusions:Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. "Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc

FT.aCt)Sony Profile Joined June 2007 United States 47 Posts #1475 First,



I want to give you a big thank you Torte. I was always casual (no more than 3-5 games a week) for majority of last year, until recently I made a hard switch over to the game a few weeks ago. Off the bat I used quite a few of your in-game guides (without knowing of this thread) and used that as a basis to learn heroes as I played Single + Random draft.



Keep up the good work. Retired Brood War Foreigner Pro | Stream @ twitch.tv/ftactsony

BluemoonSC Profile Joined November 2010 SoCal 7987 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-12 01:48:21 #1476 On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:

EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range.





How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?



Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.





Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.



Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.





Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.



Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.





For comparison's sake on the illusions:

Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.



Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.For comparison's sake on the illusions:Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage.



I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.



Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. Sellout @BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-12 12:16:12 #1477 On June 11 2014 18:56 Torte de Lini wrote:

To-do Guides:

Lycan (Lane)



Skywrath Mage (Lane)



Naga (Support - similar to how Alchemist is done)

Are we running out of guides to do? Are we running out of guides to do?

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #1478 On June 12 2014 10:48 BluemoonSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:

On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:

EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range.





How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?



Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.





Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.



Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.





Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.



Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.





For comparison's sake on the illusions:

Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.



Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.For comparison's sake on the illusions:Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage.



I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.



Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal.



In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it).



They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection.



So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core.



For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it).They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection.So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core.For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

BluemoonSC Profile Joined November 2010 SoCal 7987 Posts #1479 On June 12 2014 17:59 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 12 2014 10:48 BluemoonSC wrote:

On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:

On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:

EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range.





How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?



Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.





Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.



Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.





Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.



Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.





For comparison's sake on the illusions:

Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.



Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.For comparison's sake on the illusions:Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage.



I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.



Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal.



In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it).



They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection.



So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core.



For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it).They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection.So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core.For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid.



Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend.



If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm.



Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work! Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend.If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm.Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work! Sellout @BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-06-12 12:16:29 #1480 On June 12 2014 21:05 BluemoonSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 12 2014 17:59 Torte de Lini wrote:

On June 12 2014 10:48 BluemoonSC wrote:

On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:

On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:

EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range.





How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?



Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.





Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.



Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.





Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.



Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.





For comparison's sake on the illusions:

Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.



Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not?Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k.Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful.Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL.Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself.Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage.For comparison's sake on the illusions:Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage.Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage.



I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.



Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate.Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal.



In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it).



They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection.



So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core.



For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it).They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection.So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core.For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid.



Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend.



If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm.



Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work! Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend.If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm.Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work!



It would depend on the hero. Tabs with those kinds of specifications get to be really, really debatable and personal perspective. The other issue is that I am maxed out on Tabs and any more will actually be blocked out for some monitor resolutions (for some guides, it's already a problem).



I am going to try and do it for Naga Siren for support.



Thanks again, I do varied guides like Alchemist, Slardar and Nature's Prophet and I am open to do more of those. It would depend on the hero. Tabs with those kinds of specifications get to be really, really debatable and personal perspective. The other issue is that I am maxed out on Tabs and any more will actually be blocked out for some monitor resolutions (for some guides, it's already a problem).I am going to try and do it for Naga Siren for support.Thanks again, I do varied guides like Alchemist, Slardar and Nature's Prophet and I am open to do more of those. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

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