y0su Profile Blog Joined September 2011 Finland 7871 Posts #81 On October 21 2015 14:52 Daswollvieh wrote:

Verdicts by a court of law never seem enough. There is something like the principle of proportionality, you know.



They get their punishment and then they get the opportunity for rehabilitation. Life-time bans, especially in such petty crimes, are absolutely ridiculous.









They fundamentally harm they sport they participate in by this behavior. Totally worthy a life-time ban! (And this is a precedent that's been set in major sports as well.)



However, I don't really care either way since I (and I assume most that care about the integrity of sc2/esports) won't watch the streams anyway.



They fundamentally harm they sport they participate in by this behavior. Totally worthy a life-time ban! (And this is a precedent that's been set in major sports as well.)However, I don't really care either way since I (and I assume most that care about the integrity of sc2/esports) won't watch the streams anyway.

Capped Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 5823 Posts #82 The whole thing about afreeca permabanning people who stream on koo and not matchfixers is kinda ridiculous.



People streaming on koo are hurting the company and its profits, by not giving them their custom and encouraging others to follow. Its basically a ham-fisted business decision that acts as a deterrent to others.



Match fixers dont affect afreeca at all and they therefore dont really care as a company. Useless wet fish.

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 9842 Posts #83 On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:

The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.



What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.

Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.



So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.



If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.

If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

r_gg Profile Joined August 2015 141 Posts Last Edited: 2015-10-21 07:19:07 #84 On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:

The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.



What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.

Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.



So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.



If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.

If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done



you aren't going to get better environment for players without investment from sponsors. you aren't going to secure sponsors unless you convince them that they got completely rid of match-fixing and it won't happen again. it's going to be pretty hard to convince outsiders that you are clean if an ex-match-fixer is living off of the platform of one of your major tournament organizer

you aren't going to get better environment for players without investment from sponsors. you aren't going to secure sponsors unless you convince them that they got completely rid of match-fixing and it won't happen again. it's going to be pretty hard to convince outsiders that you are clean if an ex-match-fixer is living off of the platform of one of your major tournament organizer Writer

Kingsky Profile Blog Joined October 2010 Singapore 297 Posts #85 On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:

I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.



It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...



And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?





Actually i feel the analogy should be more like should Lance Armstrong be banned from cycling since he cheated in a cycling competition.



He should be able to stream all he wants just as how lance armstrong can cycle just not competitively Actually i feel the analogy should be more like should Lance Armstrong be banned from cycling since he cheated in a cycling competition.He should be able to stream all he wants just as how lance armstrong can cycle just not competitively Why do people hate the Colossus? Because the Colossus is like banksters from Wall Street: “too big to fail”. - TheDwF

bduddy Profile Joined May 2012 United States 1322 Posts #86 On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:

I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.



It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...



And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? Afreeca isn't a broccoli store. Afreeca is a site that currently owns and streams a major SC2 tournament sanctioned by KeSPA. Your metaphor is absurd. Afreeca isn't a broccoli store. Afreeca is a site that currently owns and streams a major SC2 tournament. Your metaphor is absurd. >Liquid'Nazgul: Of course you are completely right

evilfatsh1t Profile Joined October 2010 Australia 5060 Posts Last Edited: 2015-10-21 07:38:12 #87

judging by the posts in this thread, seems like people either havent read the post, decided to ignore it or are too stupid to comprehend it.

oh wells.



but i will say this. its no surprise afreeca is acting like this. the op hits the nail on the head, afreeca cares about $$ over everything.

any korean can tell you that the people who run afreeca are retards who have no standards

as for the illegal betting allegation, i didnt read the original korean but i dont think the translation is trying to say streams on afreeca openly advertise illegal betting (which would be false and stupid). the afreeca streams are a platform for illegal betting themselves. the contents of some streams are staged.



i hate that 2 threads have been made that basically discuss the same shit, mainly because i wrote long ass fking posts in the other thread explaining why they should be banned from streaming.judging by the posts in this thread, seems like people either havent read the post, decided to ignore it or are too stupid to comprehend it.oh wells.but i will say this. its no surprise afreeca is acting like this. the op hits the nail on the head, afreeca cares about $$ over everything.any korean can tell you that the people who run afreeca are retards who have no standardsas for the illegal betting allegation, i didnt read the original korean but i dont think the translation is trying to say streams on afreeca openly advertise illegal betting (which would be false and stupid). the afreeca streams are a platform for illegal betting themselves. the contents of some streams are staged. On October 21 2015 16:07 Capped wrote:

The whole thing about afreeca permabanning people who stream on koo and not matchfixers is kinda ridiculous.



People streaming on koo are hurting the company and its profits, by not giving them their custom and encouraging others to follow. Its basically a ham-fisted business decision that acts as a deterrent to others.



Match fixers dont affect afreeca at all and they therefore dont really care as a company.



since everyone wants to give afreeca the "private enterprise" pass and hence they dont have to ban matchfixers lets compare their actions with other companies.

if an iphone user switches to samsung galaxy does apple ban the customer from ever using iphones again? no

if a person switches isp's does the isp ban the customer from ever using their service again? no



see the problem? you cant defend afreeca's kneejerk reactions to customers switching services (which is well within their rights) and at the same time condone afreeca's decision to let matchfixers use their platform. afreeca benefits financially from both decisions, but from a moral standpoint they have chosen the wrong decision both times. koreans have all the reason to be angry at afreeca; because it shows that the people who run the company are fking shit heads



also, match fixers do affect afreeca. especially with afreeca's notice to not ban matchfixers, their already shit reputation and what little integrity they have left is being questioned. the only problem is afreeca knows they practically monopolise the streaming market in korea, which is why they arent giving any fucks. despite their product being a service to the korean community, they are blatantly ignoring criticisms about their business policy. again, it says a lot about the people who run the company since everyone wants to give afreeca the "private enterprise" pass and hence they dont have to ban matchfixers lets compare their actions with other companies.if an iphone user switches to samsung galaxy does apple ban the customer from ever using iphones again? noif a person switches isp's does the isp ban the customer from ever using their service again? nosee the problem? you cant defend afreeca's kneejerk reactions to customers switching services (which is well within their rights) and at the same time condone afreeca's decision to let matchfixers use their platform. afreeca benefits financially from both decisions, but from a moral standpoint they have chosen the wrong decision both times. koreans have all the reason to be angry at afreeca; because it shows that the people who run the company are fking shit headsalso, match fixers do affect afreeca. especially with afreeca's notice to not ban matchfixers, their already shit reputation and what little integrity they have left is being questioned. the only problem is afreeca knows they practically monopolise the streaming market in korea, which is why they arent giving any fucks. despite their product being a service to the korean community, they are blatantly ignoring criticisms about their business policy. again, it says a lot about the people who run the company

Shuffleblade Profile Joined February 2012 Sweden 1829 Posts #88 On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:

The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.



What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.

Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.



So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.



If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.

If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done

Did you read anything I wrote?



Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.





You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?

You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).



So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.



Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Did you read anything I wrote?Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here. Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!

SkrollK Profile Joined January 2015 France 380 Posts #89 On October 21 2015 16:07 Capped wrote:

The whole thing about afreeca permabanning people who stream on koo and not matchfixers is kinda ridiculous.



People streaming on koo are hurting the company and its profits, by not giving them their custom and encouraging others to follow. Its basically a ham-fisted business decision that acts as a deterrent to others.



Match fixers dont affect afreeca at all and they therefore dont really care as a company.



Have you ever heard about something called Ethics in companies ?



I'm pretty divided onto this case, don't really know what to think..



I understand that one doesn't have to take punishing decisions and call it justice, because it's vengeance.

But, I mean, they are broadcasting GSL, and also providing a plateform of streaming for ppl that matchfixed in GSL... Ok, they can get more money off it, but come on, ethics exists in business... Have you ever heard about something called Ethics in companies ?I'm pretty divided onto this case, don't really know what to think..I understand that one doesn't have to take punishing decisions and call it justice, because it's vengeance.But, I mean, they are broadcasting GSL, and also providing a plateform of streaming for ppl that matchfixed in GSL... Ok, they can get more money off it, but come on, ethics exists in business...

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 9842 Posts #90 On October 21 2015 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:

On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:

The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.



What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.

Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.



So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.



If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.

If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done

Did you read anything I wrote?



Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.





You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?

You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).



So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.



Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Did you read anything I wrote?Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?



KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wants If KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?



And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad. Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wantsIf KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad. I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

Chexx Profile Joined May 2011 Korea (South) 5817 Posts #91 I think punishing matchfixers which already got their sentence/ruling. It is something to consider moving forward now with this scandal.



So I don't understand why they won't ban Yoda, B4 etc in addition with the KOO scandal it looks like hypocrisy Writer Follow me @TL_Chexx

Shuffleblade Profile Joined February 2012 Sweden 1829 Posts #92 On October 21 2015 17:19 deacon.frost wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2015 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:

On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:

On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:

The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.



What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.

Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.



So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.



If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.

If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done

Did you read anything I wrote?



Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.





You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?

You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).



So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.



Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Did you read anything I wrote?Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?



KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wants If KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?



And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad. Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wantsIf KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad.

If I'm a fighter then tell me what I am fighting for, because unlike you I'm not taking sides and claiming what would be best for anyone. I'm merely arguing that I can see Kespas point of view, I'm not saying that I want them banned or that I demand anything else of anyone. A more fitting analogy would be an internet-fighter vs an internet-diplomat. Personally I'm more of an advocate for peace



Its not as clear cut as you make it out to be, ofcourse players should get good standards but the players are not working directly for kespa. Its a hard line to draw how much control and insight a governing body like kespa should be able to have over teams that are in themselves independant. You use the analogy of other sports, do you think that NHL demands the paperwork of all the teams economical situations and copies of everyone paycheck? What you are advocating are actually not done in any other sport, for obvious reasons.

The teams economical situation are their own and so are their training environment, NHL does not routinely visit every teams arena and inspect their locker room and showers. You say that the things you think kespa should do are realistic, I strongly disagree hopefully you realize how disassociated with reality your demands are when you get perspective on it.



You also bring up unions, which proves my point exactly. Player unions exist because governing bodies like FIFA/NHL/NBA actually does not do what you demand kespa do so therefor they need a union. What you should be saying is that pro players should found a union, which I would strongly agree with since they are the ones that should do what you demand of Kespa. If I'm a fighter then tell me what I am fighting for, because unlike you I'm not taking sides and claiming what would be best for anyone. I'm merely arguing that I can see Kespas point of view, I'm not saying that I want them banned or that I demand anything else of anyone. A more fitting analogy would be an internet-fighter vs an internet-diplomat. Personally I'm more of an advocate for peaceIts not as clear cut as you make it out to be, ofcourse players should get good standards but the players are not working directly for kespa. Its a hard line to draw how much control and insight a governing body like kespa should be able to have over teams that are in themselves independant. You use the analogy of other sports, do you think that NHL demands the paperwork of all the teams economical situations and copies of everyone paycheck? What you are advocating are actually not done in any other sport, for obvious reasons.The teams economical situation are their own and so are their training environment, NHL does not routinely visit every teams arena and inspect their locker room and showers. You say that the things you think kespa should do are realistic, I strongly disagree hopefully you realize how disassociated with reality your demands are when you get perspective on it.You also bring up unions, which proves my point exactly. Player unions exist because governing bodies like FIFA/NHL/NBA actually does not do what you demand kespa do so therefor they need a union. What you should be saying is that pro players should found a union, which I would strongly agree with since they are the ones that should do what you demand of Kespa. Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!

Ragnarork Profile Blog Joined June 2011 France 8972 Posts Last Edited: 2015-10-21 09:10:18 #93 Above the law, there are certain unspoken rules that are so obvious that the law does not need to designate them one by one, an this us a violation of it.



How FUCKED UP is that, damn!



Make it laws, or drop it... I hate these parts of cultures when there's a government. If people have to abide to that, make them laws. If not, then don't fucking mess with people about these "unspiken rules". I'd be curious as to where these come from.



Also, I'm reaaaaaally puzzled about that "we ban because you tried to move to another platform". Like... the logic seems pretty off...



I can get the point though of the issue of having on the same platform the matchfixers and the league they fixed in.. How FUCKED UP is that, damn!Make it laws, or drop it... I hate these parts of cultures when there's a government. If people have to abide to that, make them laws. If not, then don't fucking mess with people about these "unspiken rules". I'd be curious as to where these come from.Also, I'm reaaaaaally puzzled about that "we ban because you tried to move to another platform". Like... the logic seems pretty off...I can get the point though of the issue of having on the same platform the matchfixers and the league they fixed in.. Liquipedia Wanderer.

playa Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 1284 Posts #94 Blizzard step in.... if Blizzard detected a hack from a WCS player on ladder and banned his account, they wouldn't tell you or even care. For the longest time it's been clear the main incentive to become pro is to match fix. This is why you don't bet on games where the players don't get paid sufficient salaries.



Without a different kind of funding for tournaments or Blizzard providing salaries, match fixing will never go away as long as the game is alive enough to have tournaments. You have to be logical to get good, yet it's competitively illogical to play this game competitively.



The players involved in match fixing are no more greedy or immoral than Blizzard. The tragedy here is people won't acknowledge the obvious until you have a receipt/trail of what is already obvious/inevitable. Like Prime really investigated that MKP game and found it to be legit.

Gilgamesh11 Profile Joined September 2013 South Africa 23 Posts #95 On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:

I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.



It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...



And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?



Do you fucking read everything before you lift your opinion? Do you fucking read everything before you lift your opinion? Give a man a fish,you feed him for a day.Teach a man to fish,you feed him for a lifetime!

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 9842 Posts Last Edited: 2015-10-21 09:40:54 #96 On October 21 2015 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2015 17:19 deacon.frost wrote:

On October 21 2015 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:

On October 21 2015 16:07 deacon.frost wrote:

On October 21 2015 15:53 Shuffleblade wrote:

The thing people are missing is that this is not to punish the matchfixers this is to save sc2 as an esport and all other pros/coaches/staff in the scene.



What needs to happen with this scandal is it needs to get swept under the rug faster than Flash can blink, it needs to disappear. For sponsors, fans and the Community to keep being reminded of the matchfixing through the fixers streaming and possibly getting featured(like on twitch don't know how Afreeca works) thats super bad.

Thats the kind of thing that will make sponsors disappear and the scene die down, Kespa got their heads on straight in this situation, they need to erradicate the shit out of this event or get erradicated themselves in the end.



So its not about the laws, or the individual people that did wrong, its about the scene(and all the people that works in) being protected from further ripples that this could cause in the scene.



If you disagree with this you obviously do not understand the effects this could potentially have on everyone that is a pro in sc2, I don't understand but I'm pretty sure Kespa understand this 100 times better than any of us lurkers.

If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done If they want to save the e-sport then they should make some mechanism to be sure it won't happen again. Like, I don't know, how about KeSPA starts caring about players in their teams? Because it's not good how Prime treated their players. It's no excuse for what they done but if KeSPA actually cared about them and made sure that Prime isn't slavery organization it could be prevented... But I am naive thinking that harsh punishments are worse than positive motivation. When punishments are easier done

Did you read anything I wrote?



Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.





You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?

You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).



So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.



Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Did you read anything I wrote?Because yeah what I wrote was clearly that all this had to be done as punishment in the name of justice.You make very fair points, but if you were a company that wanted to increase the security of the players and make sure they got fair deals, decent pay and a good working environment maybe you would first make sure you survived as a company?You think the players would be better off if Kespa collapsed or if Kespa put so high demands on teams that sponsors pulled out(which is not unlikely, especially if they put higher demands right when this scandal has hit and they might actually pull out anyway).So yeah, maybe you should consider your position, your responsibility and do what you can instead of doing things that you realistically can't and make everyone suffer as a consequence.Really don't like when internet-fighters don't do anything themselves but expect "everyone else" to sacrifice everything and do things that are realistically not possible just for the "good of others". If you really want the players to be better off do something yourself first before you mouth off on kespa that has likely done 1000000000x times as much for the scene than any of the posters here.

Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?



KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wants If KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?



And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad. Isn't it nice when internet-fighter is fighting another internet-fighter?KeSPA wants from players some standards and pro player behavior. It's OK. Then KeSPA should care about players that they are treated like pro players. It isn't one way street as KeSPA wantsIf KeSPA is caring about teams under KeSPA(and they are) why are they ignoring player conditions like Prime?And wrong, we are talking about realistically possible things. That's why sports have player unions. I naively thought that KeSPA would care about players too but as it shows KeSPA cares only when players break rules... Which is simply bad.

If I'm a fighter then tell me what I am fighting for, because unlike you I'm not taking sides and claiming what would be best for anyone. I'm merely arguing that I can see Kespas point of view, I'm not saying that I want them banned or that I demand anything else of anyone. A more fitting analogy would be an internet-fighter vs an internet-diplomat. Personally I'm more of an advocate for peace



Its not as clear cut as you make it out to be, ofcourse players should get good standards but the players are not working directly for kespa. Its a hard line to draw how much control and insight a governing body like kespa should be able to have over teams that are in themselves independant. You use the analogy of other sports, do you think that NHL demands the paperwork of all the teams economical situations and copies of everyone paycheck? What you are advocating are actually not done in any other sport, for obvious reasons.

The teams economical situation are their own and so are their training environment, NHL does not routinely visit every teams arena and inspect their locker room and showers. You say that the things you think kespa should do are realistic, I strongly disagree hopefully you realize how disassociated with reality your demands are when you get perspective on it.



You also bring up unions, which proves my point exactly. Player unions exist because governing bodies like FIFA/NHL/NBA actually does not do what you demand kespa do so therefor they need a union. What you should be saying is that pro players should found a union, which I would strongly agree with since they are the ones that should do what you demand of Kespa. If I'm a fighter then tell me what I am fighting for, because unlike you I'm not taking sides and claiming what would be best for anyone. I'm merely arguing that I can see Kespas point of view, I'm not saying that I want them banned or that I demand anything else of anyone. A more fitting analogy would be an internet-fighter vs an internet-diplomat. Personally I'm more of an advocate for peaceIts not as clear cut as you make it out to be, ofcourse players should get good standards but the players are not working directly for kespa. Its a hard line to draw how much control and insight a governing body like kespa should be able to have over teams that are in themselves independant. You use the analogy of other sports, do you think that NHL demands the paperwork of all the teams economical situations and copies of everyone paycheck? What you are advocating are actually not done in any other sport, for obvious reasons.The teams economical situation are their own and so are their training environment, NHL does not routinely visit every teams arena and inspect their locker room and showers. You say that the things you think kespa should do are realistic, I strongly disagree hopefully you realize how disassociated with reality your demands are when you get perspective on it.You also bring up unions, which proves my point exactly. Player unions exist because governing bodies like FIFA/NHL/NBA actually does not do what you demand kespa do so therefor they need a union. What you should be saying is that pro players should found a union, which I would strongly agree with since they are the ones that should do what you demand of Kespa.

Well I demand that from KeSPA because I think that an institution run by Korean government should take care of citizens in e-sport, not only teams, that's basically it. If I have a wrong view on KeSPA then the union is a better solution. Well I demand that from KeSPA because I think that an institution run by Korean government should take care of citizens in e-sport, not only teams, that's basically it. If I have a wrong view on KeSPA then the union is a better solution. I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

Penev Profile Joined October 2012 27665 Posts #97 On October 21 2015 17:56 Chexx wrote:

I think punishing matchfixers which already got their sentence/ruling. It is something to consider moving forward now with this scandal.



So I don't understand why they won't ban Yoda, B4 etc in addition with the KOO scandal it looks like hypocrisy

I'm not sure if I get what you're saying. Is it: Don't ban former (Broodwar) matchfixers but do ban the new ones? I'm not sure if I get what you're saying. Is it: Don't ban former (Broodwar) matchfixers but do ban the new ones? I non zerg winner, could it be?

papaz Profile Joined December 2009 Sweden 4129 Posts #98 Calm the F down. Blizzard create games. If someone cheats in Starcraft 2 using 3rd party tools or hacks then Blizzard should/would ban that player.



However, a player throwing a match? How is that a Blizzard problem? Because they own the game?



People want go down that path and use that kind of logic, really?



Think about it for a minute...Good, now move on and let the police do what they do best and Blizzard do what they do best.

OtherWorld Profile Blog Joined October 2013 France 17332 Posts Last Edited: 2015-10-21 10:25:58 #99



On October 21 2015 18:31 Gilgamesh11 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:

I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.



It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...



And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need?



Do you fucking read everything before you lift your opinion? Do you fucking read everything before you lift your opinion?

Well I mean he's completely right I think that there's no problem in not banning matchfixers from streaming. They didn't respect the law (thus they'll be punished by a court), they didn't respect the law of their corporation (thus they'll be punished by KeSPA by not having a progamer license anymore) and they didn't respect the moral code of progaming or even competition in general (thus they're suffering a big popularity hit and probably won't get picked up by a team and be accepted in tournaments anymore), no reason to arbitrarily prevent them from a chance at getting exposure back.Well I mean he's completely right Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com

deacon.frost Profile Joined February 2013 Czech Republic 9842 Posts Last Edited: 2015-10-21 10:35:27 #100 On October 21 2015 19:16 papaz wrote:

Calm the F down. Blizzard create games. If someone cheats in Starcraft 2 using 3rd party tools or hacks then Blizzard should/would ban that player.



However, a player throwing a match? How is that a Blizzard problem? Because they own the game?



People want go down that path and use that kind of logic, really?



Think about it for a minute...Good, now move on and let the police do what they do best and Blizzard do what they do best.

Technically Blizzard has logo in all these leagues and so they are harmed by this so they can do any action they like because they damaged their image and reputation. Question is - if they react will it help? because TL or even Korea itself is a small market when it comes to all Blizzard games The DNC approach seems working for them. Technically Blizzard has logo in all these leagues and so they are harmed by this so they can do any action they like because they damaged their image and reputation. Question is - if they react will it help? because TL or even Korea itself is a small market when it comes to all Blizzard gamesThe DNC approach seems working for them. I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

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