Barrin Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 4998 Posts #14221 Day[9] hit it right on the nose when he said something along the lines of "there are many styles of play that haven't really been touched yet". Day is speaking from experience, and I'm not sure if I should be surprised that Idra didn't agree with it.



Go back to Brood War 8-9 years ago. People thought almost everything was figured out. And then new styles and strategies emerged that dominated the old ones, so new strategies (or refinements) had to be made to beat those strategies, but then those strategies/refinements were made vulnerable to yet more strategies.



So what it really boils down to is: Have all strategies and styles been tested thoroughly?



Well, if you ask me (and apparently Day[9]), hell the fuck NO. But I do understand the factors that could lead a reasonable person to believe that most of them have been tested thoroughly. It only seems that way. You are normal for believing that if you do. But you are wrong. I do not need to support this claim with evidence, because time will do it for me (which is how I'm sure Day[9] feels which is why he is happy to just laugh it off).



It makes you wonder why a knowledgeable person such as Idra would believe things are mostly figured out. Well, it's just that really: because he is so knowledgeable. He is so goddamn good at the current meta-game that his brain and subconscious have a hard time seeing past it. This is normal. There are plenty of analogies I could use here... but suffice to say that the more you get used to something the harder it is to think about how it could be different.



I am 100% confident when I say that in 1 year things will be different. 1 year after that things will be different again. 10 years from now you wouldn't recognize any of the strategies. Time would tell... if it weren't for the expansions that are going to come out that will more than likely change every match-up drastically. But what I'm saying would certainly hold true even after that.



(P.S. I understand that I am not really giving any supporting evidence. It's because if I did I would have to give it all just to really get the point across... which would likely take several months to several years to explain. I'll pass. Time will tell.) Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"

Swarmed Profile Joined April 2011 59 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 16:56:21 #14222 On April 08 2011 01:43 Barrin wrote:

Well, if you ask me (and apparently Day[9]), hell the fuck NO. But I do understand the factors that could lead a reasonable person to believe that most of them have been tested thoroughly. It only seems that way. You are normal for believing that if you do. But you are wrong. I do not need to support this claim with evidence, because time will do it for me (which is how I'm sure Day[9] feels which is why he is happy to just laugh it off).



Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.



You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have to believe.

Hence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".



edit:

Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have toHence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".edit: On April 08 2011 01:43 Barrin wrote:

I am 100% confident when I say that in 1 year things will be different. 1 year after that things will be different again.

Oh yeah? And how many more balance patches will the community have gone through in that time do you think? Lol, seriously people... I am 100% confident in a year more balance patches will have rolled out and things will indeed be different. I guess I should start a fortune telling business. Oh yeah? And how many more balance patches will the community have gone through in that time do you think? Lol, seriously people... I am 100% confident in a year more balance patches will have rolled out and things will indeed be different. I guess I should start a fortune telling business.

Barrin Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 4998 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 17:08:00 #14223 Oh yeah? And how many more balance patches will the community have gone through in that time do you think? Lol, seriously people... I am 100% confident in a year more balance patches will have rolled out and things will indeed be different. I guess I should start a fortune telling business.

You interpreted what I said far too literally.



edit: Also, I find it interesting that you believe you know beyond a doubt what Day[9] and others are thinking. Perhaps that is one factor influencing their expressions, but to infer that that is the only reason they are saying it is a massive assumption. You have no idea whether or not they believe what they're saying. You interpreted what I said far too literally.edit: Also, I find it interesting that you believe you know beyond a doubt what Day[9] and others are thinking. Perhaps that is one factor influencing their expressions, but to infer that that is the only reason they are saying it is a massive assumption. You have no idea whether or not they believe what they're saying. Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"

Seronei Profile Joined January 2011 Sweden 991 Posts #14224 On April 08 2011 01:51 Swarmed wrote:





You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have to believe.

Hence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".



There is no reason for them to discuss the game balance because it doesn't matter for the majority of the playerbase, there is no reason why a lower level player to whine about balance. That's why I think pros should shut up about balance in public interviews and leave their feedback directly to blizzard and discuss it privately with other pros. There is no reason for them to discuss the game balance because it doesn't matter for the majority of the playerbase, there is no reason why a lower level player to whine about balance. That's why I think pros should shut up about balance in public interviews and leave their feedback directly to blizzard and discuss it privately with other pros.

bentski Profile Joined July 2010 Canada 31 Posts #14225 I love how this thread has turned into a discussion about the appropriateness of balance discussion. It's like discussing the meta-game of balance discussion.



p.s. I really hope Idra/Day[9] don't waste their time reading this dribble... otherwise this thread will be the death of SOTG times ten

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8355 Posts #14226 On April 08 2011 01:51 Swarmed wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 08 2011 01:43 Barrin wrote:

Well, if you ask me (and apparently Day[9]), hell the fuck NO. But I do understand the factors that could lead a reasonable person to believe that most of them have been tested thoroughly. It only seems that way. You are normal for believing that if you do. But you are wrong. I do not need to support this claim with evidence, because time will do it for me (which is how I'm sure Day[9] feels which is why he is happy to just laugh it off).



Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.



You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have to believe.

Hence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game". Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have toHence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".

Here's an analogy:

You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?



Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.



The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."



IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to open his doors.



That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have! Here's an analogy:You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to opendoors.That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have! "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

Dommk Profile Joined May 2010 Australia 4463 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 17:48:01 #14227 Pretty silly to talk about balance, especially after the nomination show today.



Kyrix said Protoss is Zergs easiest to beat Race when he was chosen by XXXXXX. Check/Losira both said they preferred to play Protoss over Terran (well Losira said he was going to choose Protoss). John + Doa said that the general census among top Korean Zergs (during the broadcast) is that they would rather play against a Protoss than Terran.



If Protoss is "broken" you wouldn't get people like Kyrix, Losira and Check preferring to play against Protoss than Terran.Something over there is changing, time will tell.

Ghad Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Norway 2551 Posts #14228 That's very deep. forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.

Barrin Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 4998 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:11:21 #14229 The way I see it, it's more like 100 doors or so (most likely even more than that). (for each race).



Maybe about 20-30 of them are known to the MOST knowledgeable of knowledgeable people, and only about 5-10 are well-known, 2-5 of which are the "meta-game".



The 2-5 in the meta-game are in the meta-game because they are good against the 5-10 well-known. However, there is definitely at least 1 door out there that beats most of the 2-5 in the meta-game (and it might even be fine against most of the 5-10 well-known, but often not all of them). When that door on the outside of the "known" is shown to beat one of the 2-5 in the meta-game, then it becomes part of the 2-5 meta-game (or at least of the 5-10 well-known).



To understand why there is so many doors, you must understand that the doors themselves are not a one-sided venture. The question the door answers isn't "Does this strategy work?"... the question is "Does this strategy work against ____, ____, ____, ____, and ____".



It's actually a very dynamic and fluid thing... in fact the number of doors really depends on how you really characterize the differences between them. If the differences can be fairly minute... holy damn is there a lot of doors! Perhaps another way to think of it is that there are a dozen or so doors, but those doors just open up rooms filled with more doors which are the actual strategies, and the first doors are just the general category of the strategies. Even then, though, I would say there are doors within doors within doors (and you're damn right not a single person has opened up all of them, in fact I believe that everyone combined hasn't). Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"

OutlaW- Profile Blog Joined July 2010 Czech Republic 3526 Posts #14230 On April 08 2011 02:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 08 2011 01:51 Swarmed wrote:

On April 08 2011 01:43 Barrin wrote:

Well, if you ask me (and apparently Day[9]), hell the fuck NO. But I do understand the factors that could lead a reasonable person to believe that most of them have been tested thoroughly. It only seems that way. You are normal for believing that if you do. But you are wrong. I do not need to support this claim with evidence, because time will do it for me (which is how I'm sure Day[9] feels which is why he is happy to just laugh it off).



Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.



You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have to believe.

Hence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game". Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have toHence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".

Here's an analogy:

You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?



Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.



The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."



IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to open his doors.



That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have! Here's an analogy:You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to opendoors.That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!

This is such a good analogy, especially the first paragraph. This should be posted somewhere.

This is such a good analogy, especially the first paragraph. This should be posted somewhere. Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree

rastaban Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 2272 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:21:54 #14231 On April 08 2011 02:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +

On April 08 2011 01:51 Swarmed wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 08 2011 01:43 Barrin wrote:

Well, if you ask me (and apparently Day[9]), hell the fuck NO. But I do understand the factors that could lead a reasonable person to believe that most of them have been tested thoroughly. It only seems that way. You are normal for believing that if you do. But you are wrong. I do not need to support this claim with evidence, because time will do it for me (which is how I'm sure Day[9] feels which is why he is happy to just laugh it off).



Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.



You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have to believe.

Hence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game". Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have toHence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".

Here's an analogy:

You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?



Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.



The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."



IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to open his doors.



That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!

Here's an analogy:You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to opendoors.That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!





Wow, a beautiful analogy that summed up everything so well. Wow, a beautiful analogy that summed up everything so well. Tyler: "...damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!"

Logo Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 2970 Posts #14232 On April 08 2011 02:44 Dommk wrote:

Pretty silly to talk about balance, especially after the nomination show today.



Kyrix said Protoss is Zergs easiest to beat Race when he was chosen by XXXXXX. Check/Losira both said they preferred to play Protoss over Terran (well Losira said he was going to choose Protoss). John + Doa said that the general census among top Korean Zergs (during the broadcast) is that they would rather play against a Protoss than Terran.



If Protoss is "broken" you wouldn't get people like Kyrix, Losira and Check preferring to play against Protoss than Terran.Something over there is changing, time will tell.



Well there's player skill to be measured and determined.



I feel much more comfortable ZvP than ZvT because I spend tons of time on my ZvP and have refined(ish) builds and good knowledge of timing. Another big portion of my focus went into ZvZ because I wasn't understanding the matchup at all for a while. I understand the general flow of ZvT and some of the timings, but my execution is sloppy and I don't have things smoothed out. So my ZvP/ZvZ win rates are much higher than my ZvT's. Yet I'd still call ZvP the harder match up because when I remove myself from the picture it's objectively way tougher.



There's no reason to think that Kyrix, Losira, and Check might be in the same position where, regardless of racial strength, they feel more comfortable in the ZvP matchup. Well there's player skill to be measured and determined.I feel much more comfortable ZvP than ZvT because I spend tons of time on my ZvP and have refined(ish) builds and good knowledge of timing. Another big portion of my focus went into ZvZ because I wasn't understanding the matchup at all for a while. I understand the general flow of ZvT and some of the timings, but my execution is sloppy and I don't have things smoothed out. So my ZvP/ZvZ win rates are much higher than my ZvT's. Yet I'd still call ZvP the harder match up because when I remove myself from the picture it's objectively way tougher.There's no reason to think that Kyrix, Losira, and Check might be in the same position where, regardless of racial strength, they feel more comfortable in the ZvP matchup. Logo

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8355 Posts #14233 Does Dimaga have a sexier body than NaDa? He looks pretty fit. Let's see some shirtless pics "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

Bagi Profile Joined August 2010 Germany 6789 Posts #14234 I love all the nuthuggers that come along when Tyler posts something.



Not that it's not a good analogy, but still, those posts are about as necessary as this one.

usethis2 Profile Joined December 2010 2164 Posts #14235 Interesting turn of event where a video game becomes a religion. It's quite hilarious, to be frank.

Nakas Profile Joined May 2010 United States 148 Posts #14236 I feel like people with a gaming experience excessively focused on BW have developed a somewhat naive sense of game balance. There is no reason to think that "if we open all the doors, there will be food behind one of them". Games are generally *not* balanced. Maybe BW was, but that's not typical, and should absolutely not be assumed.

Lomak Profile Joined June 2010 United States 311 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:44:08 #14237 On April 08 2011 03:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:

Does Dimaga have a sexier body than NaDa? He looks pretty fit. Let's see some shirtless pics







Anyways back on topic, I shouldn't really comment on balance as I'm only a diamond level player (zerg). With that being said , to me from a player / spectator standpoint it just FEELS like zerg units are lacking.....my 2 cents. Anyways back on topic, I shouldn't really comment on balance as I'm only a diamond level player (zerg). With that being said , to me from a player / spectator standpoint it just FEELS like zerg units are lacking.....my 2 cents. Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.

Swarmed Profile Joined April 2011 59 Posts #14238 @Tyler

It's an interesting analogy which I would love to go along with but it implies that although you can't open some doors yet, you've already identified them and can differentiate between them.



And sure, why not. But Day[9]'s "just mass infestors", besides being very unconvincing to most anyone actually playing Zerg (even at low masters in my case), shows little other than joyful ignorance of time required to get there (even rushing) and the min/gas ratio issue overall with Zerg which prevents infestor play from rising above "cute" status (Lalush's post). It's not like Zerg players haven't thought of using infestors before Day[9]...



And even so, this is a suggestion offered right after a "balance" patch that just did buff infestor dps and total damage vs armored, so you kinda have to laugh at the whole "keep trying to open doors". Yeah, keep trying, especially after it gets patched :/



This doesn't touch upon the fact that there is a larger design issue with Zerg supposed to stay ahead in bases/drone count but that has much bigger supply issues than in BW thanks to queens and 2+food roaches/hydras/everything but lings, basically making Zerg "peak" around late midgame / early lategame but then it's all downhill from there.

slyboogie Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 3423 Posts Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:44:59 #14239 On April 08 2011 03:40 Lomak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 08 2011 03:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:

Does Dimaga have a sexier body than NaDa? He looks pretty fit. Let's see some shirtless pics







Anyways back on topic, I shouldn't really comment on balance as I'm only a diamond level player (zerg). With that being said , to me from a player / spectator standpoint it just FEELS like zerg units are lacking.....my 2 cents. Anyways back on topic, I shouldn't really comment on balance as I'm only a diamond level player (zerg). With that being said , to me from a player / spectator standpoint it just FEELS like zerg units are lacking.....my 2 cents.



Nice. Nice. "We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified

Essentia Profile Joined July 2010 1150 Posts #14240 Idra has outperformed Tyler in SC2 with results and obv is a better player than Day9 and yet people are taking Tyler/Day9's side? Sorry, but I am going to listen to Idra on this one since he is clearly the best player in the discussion.

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