Finally Taking it to the Streets (Literally!)

Listen to the audio version.

Here in Toronto, we have an area called Yonge & Dundas Square, a more polite version of Times Square in New York. It has bright lights, billboards, tourists, buskers, and of course, street preachers. In true Toronto fashion, it's a diverse group: the young guy with the megaphone who yells that you're going to burn in Hell is across the street from the old guy who mutters "Believe!" as he thrusts a crumpled tract in your direction. A few metres away some Muslim folks offer free copies of the Qur'an, while just a bit farther still are the Jehovah's Witnesses, quietly waiting for people to approach them and take a copy of The Watchtower. On some days you'll be asked to sign a petition to stop the persecution of Falun Dafa practitioners in China, and if you're really lucky you might have someone posing as a Buddhist monk ask you for money.

I have been passing by this spectacle for years, but since I have never really wanted what these people were selling, I have averted my gaze and steered clear. It was only recently, after discovering Street Epistemology, that I first considered approaching one of these people and striking up a conversation. Ironically, though, the more I learned about SE, the less confident I felt. I had watched countless example videos, read “A Manual For Creating Atheists” and “The Outsider Test for Faith,” and had many conversations with strangers online, friends, and family members. I still felt unprepared to dive into a chat with these heavyweights. Sometimes I was in a rush, or not in the right headspace, but most of the time I just plain chickened out.

Until last week.

I found myself at Yonge & Dundas on a beautiful summer night with nothing but time on my hands as I waited to meet my girlfriend. This was it. I stood on the corner for a bit, taking in the scene that I described above. There was a group of 3-4 Christians chatting with each other and lazily handing out their material, so I strolled over, fully prepared to just keep walking if they didn't approach me. Just when I thought I would have to try again some other time, a tall young man named Dave handed me a Chick Tract (it was called “The Bull,” in case you want to check it out). The conversation went something like this:

Me: Ah, thanks man. Can you tell me about this thing you're handing out?

Dave: This is called a tract. It's about [gives synopsis of The Bull], so basically we're all sinners and we can only be saved through Jesus Christ.

Me: Ok, cool, I'll check it out. Do you mind if I ask you some questions about that though?

Dave: Sure, that's why we're out here!

Me: Great, thanks. You said we were all sinners, and I guess I wanted to ask about that. Is everyone a sinner, including that little girl?

Dave: Yes, everyone. Jesus said [some Bible verse read from his phone], so the nature of man is to sin, and someone has to pay for that sin, which is where Jesus comes in. It also says [another Bible verse], so since it's our nature to sin, that girl will sin eventually, just like all of us. That's why we need Jesus.

Me: Ah, ok. I guess I can understand that idea. It looks like you place a lot of importance in what the Bible says, is that right?

Dave: Of course! The Bible is the ultimate source of truth. You see, [long rant about how evolution is “just a theory,” immorality is everywhere, God's law, etc].

Me: Wow, you threw a lot at me there! I want to go back to the first thing you said: the Bible is the ultimate source of truth, right?

Dave: Yeah, it's true.

Me: Ok. I'm not saying I can do this, but if it could be shown that the Bible wasn't reliable, that it got something wrong, what effect would that have on your belief in god?

Dave: [Looks at me, looks up, looks at his phone, looks back at me.] Uh, I don't know. I've never thought about that before... but... the Bible is true, so...

Me: If I can ask another question—that gentleman over there is handing out copies of the Qur'an. If we assume he says that the Qur'an is the ultimate source of truth, how could we determine which one of you is right?

Dave: Uh, well I don't know much about the Qur'an...

Me: Neither do I, but do you think there's a way we can find out which of the two books are reliable?

Dave: Um... I mean, I think you should talk to Wendy. She knows a lot more about this than me.

Me: Well, I'm happy to talk to Wendy, but I—

Before I could explain that I wanted to know what he thought, Dave cut me off by walking over to his friends. He said something to one of the women, presumably Wendy, and she followed him back to where I was standing. She asked, “So you have some questions about the Qur'an?” I quickly clarified what I had asked.

Wendy was a much more seasoned apologist than Dave, and she seemed not only to have Biblical knowledge, but knowledge of the Qur'an as well. She asked, “Why would you want to follow that book? Did you know there are 99 different versions of it?” And then went on for a bit about all of the bad things about the Qur'an, specifically how Muhammad's wife Aisha was very young and how he brutally destroyed his enemies while keeping the girls as spoils of war.

Me: Wow, I really appreciate your knowledge on this. So just to be clear, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Qur'an isn't worth following because there are many versions and because it is full of violence?

Wendy: That's correct.

Those of you familiar with the Bible know where I went with that, but she dismissed my question with the predictable “but that's the Old Testament.” That didn't stop her from talking about Adam, Job, and Noah, but I let it slide in an effort to avoid apologetics.

We chatted a bit more until I came back to the same question I had asked originally: how can we know if the Bible is true? At this point it was Wendy's turn to tap out. “I think you need to speak to my husband Mark,” she said, and went to get him. He came over, said hello, and spoke for a while about Satan, about the Qur'an being a false teaching, and then about how personal experiences following an accident had lead him to Christ. It was a lot of information, and I was running out of time, but we were about to get to what I really wanted to discuss.

Me: Thanks for sharing that. It sounds like some amazing things have happened in your life, and I'm glad you're doing better now. I guess my question is similar to what I asked Dave, which is how we can be sure that the god of the Bible is the one who helped you through that time?

Mark: Ah, well, you have to have faith!



Me: You use faith to know that god was helping you?

Wendy: We all use faith every day. If I gave you a chair to sit on, you would have faith that it would hold you up, right? You would sit on it without hesitation.

Me: I would trust it, partly because I’ve sat on many chairs before, partly because it seems like I can trust you not to give me a broken chair to sit on. Trust might not be the same as faith. But if, like you say, we all use faith, and the Muslim over there uses faith the same way you do, how do I know who's right? Is faith a reliable way to discover the truth?

Mark: Well faith is how we are able to know God, so I rely on it.

Me: Is there anything else that you use faith for? [This garnered only a confused look.] Let me ask that a different way. Would I be able to use faith to come to any conclusion?

Mark: Well I guess so, but you have to make sure that your conclusion is right.

Me: Sure, but if you're using faith as a method, it might be tough to know how right you are.

Wendy: Have you gotten down on your knees and opened your heart to Jesus? If you do, you'll hear him talk to you and you'll be saved.

Me: What if I did that this morning but didn't hear anything?

Mark: Then you need to do it again!

Me: Do I just keep doing it until I get the result I want?

Wendy: You keep doing it until you're saved!

At this point I was late. I thanked them for their time and tried to excuse myself, but Wendy asked if they could pray for me. I said sure, and she grabbed me by the hand, with Dave grabbing the other. Mark rounded out the circle. “Oh, you mean right now?” Yes, she did. They lowered their heads while Wendy prayed that Brian would let The Lord into his heart, and ended with, “I'll ask you Jesus, will you forgive Brian if he opens his heart to you? I just heard him, he said that he will forgive you.”

I don't know who Brian is, but it's good to know he's eligible for salvation.

As I was wrapping things up, I said that I had one more question for Mark.

Me: Is there anything that would change your mind?

Mark: [without hesitation] No.

Me: Not that I think I could do this, but what if it could be shown that the Bible wasn't what you think it is? That it had errors, or that the events didn't happen the way they're written?

Mark: That wouldn't matter to us because we would have an answer for anything you could come up with. We wouldn't have to change our minds.

I thanked them for their time, shook their hands, and went to meet my girl.

I know that there are some things I could have done better. I could have asked more open-ended questions, asked where they were on the “belief scale,” been more comfortable with politely interrupting when they got off on a tangent. I also know that letting my interlocutor tag out of the talk when they became uncomfortable was not ideal, since they were able to avoid the true introspection I was aiming for.

At the same time, I'm considering it a win for a few reasons. First, I kept myself on track, and I asked questions even when I wanted to state facts (about evolution, Noah's flood, or violence in the Bible). After long strings of Bible verses and apologetics, I was able to say things like, "I appreciate your knowledge of those topics, but you said a lot there and I'd really like to get back to the first thing you said." Second, I got the responses "I don't know" and "I've never thought of that before" a few times, mostly from Dave. He was very quiet as I spoke with his more experienced partners, but treating him as an audience was helpful to me, and I hope that he left with some things to think about. Third, we had a very cordial chat, and we parted ways with smiles and handshakes. I'm certainly not ready to call myself an expert Street Epistemologist, but I achieved something I was nervous about trying, and I know what I need to do to get better.

I'll leave you with one more moment from the talk.

As the four of us were standing there chatting, a man came over with his crumpled coffee cup asking for change. Wendy and Mark completely ignored him, but Dave was kind enough to put a copy of “The Bull” in his cup. I wanted to ask if that's what Jesus would have done, but I kept my mouth shut in the interest of maintaining rapport...

