READER COMMENTS ON

"New Study Suggests CA's 2008 Prop 8 Election Results Could be Fraudulent or In Error"

(37 Responses so far...)





COMMENT #1 [Permalink]

... Edward Miessner said on 1/13/2010 @ 7:50 pm PT...





Brad, I came over here from FireDogLake's live blog of the Proposition 8 Trial in SF. SCOTUS has ruled, 5-4, against broadcasting the trial. Yes, it was the usual suspects. Unless one of them is replaced, I am afraid the judicial process will be rigged, as well with Prop. 8 left in place. Now that it appears that the voting public's answer to the ballot question was STOLEN, I feel really, really, sick. And yea, I am a gay man and despite not living in CA, it affects me, personally. Maybe it doesn't affect you in the exact same way I do (i.e., you're hetero? - my gaydar didn't go up) but I could be wrong...

COMMENT #2 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 1/13/2010 @ 8:56 pm PT...





Whether I'm gay or not (which is easy enough to figure out), means nothing here. Robbing people of RIGHTS mean everything, and infuriates me no end. That too, however, means little in regard to the above article. Either the intent of the voters was actually measured or it was not. If we can't even rely on that much, we are even more screwed than we think. Don't be a stranger, Edward. Give my best to Marcy and the gang over at FDL!

COMMENT #3 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 1/13/2010 @ 8:57 pm PT...





Oh, and yes, PLEASE spread the word about this article and this study!!!

COMMENT #4 [Permalink]

... Big Dan said on 1/13/2010 @ 9:07 pm PT...





You mean elections are manipulated??? Federal Prosecutors: Kentucky Officials Manipulated Clay County Elections for Decades https://bradblog.com/?p=7627

COMMENT #5 [Permalink]

... katie said on 1/13/2010 @ 11:47 pm PT...





What business does the all important "we don't interfere in States legal affairs" SCOTUS sticking its nose into making a decision to permanently ban televised coverage of the No on Prop 8 trial from the Calif State Courthouse in San Francisco? When will the SCOTUS stop and draw the line? will they now invoke their right to forever ban basic civil rights as well? It seems that the conservative members have formed a good old boys clique and they're getting ready to turn the clock back to the bad old days, from before the sixties and possibly even back to the days of slavery. it is so beneath the dignity of the SCOTUS to have made such a ruling today. Shame on the 5 conservative members who ruled in favor. by the way, great job on putting this article together and making it so very crystal clear that the prop 8 election results were "corrupted". it's simply outrageous that CA SOS Bowen ignores this. No one wants to get their hands dirty and wage a war examining voting results from the Prop 8 voting results, not with Diebold since we all know what Diebold did to former CA SOS kevin shelley.

COMMENT #6 [Permalink]

... matt said on 1/14/2010 @ 2:45 am PT...





Wow. I've always mused how a study like this could work - these folks really did their homework. I look forward to reading the whole thing. It's like a citizen-sponsored audit, and I'd love to see them everywhere.

COMMENT #7 [Permalink]

... zapkitty said on 1/14/2010 @ 6:09 am PT...





katie said... "What business does the all important "we don't interfere in States legal affairs" SCOTUS sticking its nose into making a decision to permanently ban televised coverage of the No on Prop 8 trial from the Calif State Courthouse in San Francisco?" Because they are terrified that their own perversions of justice will be televised next. bmaz has covered this well over at Marcy's place on FDL. And while you're there check out the clues that China cheerfully hijacked the Bush/Obama unlimited unwarranted surveillance taps to use in the attack on Google.

COMMENT #8 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 1/14/2010 @ 7:32 am PT...





The timing of this piece is exceedingly ironic. The U.S. Supreme Court just issued a 5-4 decision to bar cameras from a trial in U.S. District Court in which the constitutionality of Prop 8 is being challenged, prompting Rick Jacobs of the Courage Campaign to say: "The Supreme Court just struck a huge blow against transparency and accountability. This historic trial will remain largely hidden from public view, despite it's historic potential to challenge and change the minds of Americans." Four of the five justices who voted to bar cameras from the trial, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas Samuel Alito, have ties to the Robert Bork-founded, Richard Mellon Scaife-funded, radical right Federalist Society. The fifth was the conservative swing vote, Justice Anthony Kennedy. The legal team that is challenging the constitutionality of Prop 8 is headed by David Boies and Theodore B. Olson, the same two attorneys who had been on opposite sides in Bush v. Gore, the case that provided the onus for the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) which has greatly expanded the use of e-voting throughout the nation. Olson and Boies are challenging the right of a majority of CA voters to deprive two individuals of the right to marry on the basis of gender. Many legal experts believe they have a good chance of success at the trial level but that the case will probably, ultimately find its way back to the U.S. Supreme Court, where, as reflected by the decision just handed down, it faces an extremely unreceptive audience. This piece reflects that the majority of CA voters may have actually voted to preserve the right of same-sex marriage. "The blow against transparency and accountability," that Rick Jacob complains about with respect to the cameras, actually may have come much earlier within the black hole confines of e-voting machines. Unfortunately, since trial is underway, it is probably far too late for Olson and Boies to work this new discovery into their case.

COMMENT #9 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/14/2010 @ 9:47 am PT...





I've been screaming about this PROP 8 stinkerofaneffin' election now for well over a year, ever since Emily Levy w/ Velvet Revolution and Blackboxvoting.org discovered numerical anomalies in the official results - results which were delayed for...what, 5 days? Am I remembering this right, Bradpeoples?(Karen from Illinois?) Late results, no precinct-by-precints released, ballots not counted for days, questionable chain of custody, with a premature declaration of victory by PROP 8's backers sittin' like a cherry on top. All the statistical footprints of election manipulation we have come to know so well here at BB - hell, even expect to see in the 50-50 swing districts (in this case, the whole STATE of "COTTIFAWNIA") for those high money, big stake races. You know, I am adored by the gays (collectively).

I'm like their Kathy Griffin, but with more substance and a natural looking profile. And yet I can't get any of them to pick up this story. I posted it to Facebook TWICE, and only BIG DAN and Nanci Tobi responded. (Thanks, btw, BD!) Friends, after 10 years of unabated, incapacitating shock and disgust from tracking IMPOSSIBLE U.S. election results that no one is willing to acknowledge - this one cuts me to the quick. So much so, I'm using phrases like 'cuts me to the quick'. I am most amazed that I can still be this amazed.

Surprised that after disavowing all the bitter surprises that come from feeling so helpless in the face of the astounding failures of our privatized election systems, I still reel. Even more affecting - the lack of interest from the very people most affected by these electoral shenanigans. That I am still profoundly boofed by these "E.I givens" is most frustrating. (Makes moot all those zen calm classes I took to cope, all those seminars on 'how not to care about the things beyond our control blah blah' - wasted dollars.) So Crazy! Such Idoicy! When you consider the money spent to counter - the lawsuits, the organizing, the PR, the time / energy spent all to overturn an unconstitutional initiative won with ENTIRELY OBVIOUSLY BOGUS election results that show more votes than voters, or more voters than votes. This particular brand of evil PROP 8 / MICHIGAN / lie about ourselves is even worse than the ones we've grown accustomed to. This particular lie about ourselves (that we've all collectively agreed to believe for some reason no matter what evidence there is to the contrary) would have us believe we are a majority of bigots and discriminatory jackasses. We are not. We are a MINORITY of bigots and discriminatory jackasses. ...and the sad, left behind minority shouldn't get to decide *shit* for the rest of us.

COMMENT #10 [Permalink]

... lottakatz said on 1/14/2010 @ 11:01 am PT...





I posted the article link and WasProp8Straight.org link over at the Jonathan Turley blog, he has a nice article about the SCOTUS decision up.

COMMENT #11 [Permalink]

... karenfromillinois said on 1/14/2010 @ 11:08 am PT...





a quick look ovr of the report and taft caught my eye..perhaps i am missing something but the official results say 569 peops voted (including 29 abs) and the official results show 557 votes total on prop 8 so that leaves us with 12 undervotes but the exit poll results say 310 peops responded to them and they report a total of 294 votes on prop 8 which leaves us with 16 undervotes in the responant catagory alone.....think about this for minuete,either some respondants lied and did vote but wouldnt say and not even 1 ab ballot or non responder had an undervote for prop 8 or the counters inflated the votes(in which direction we cant know)

COMMENT #12 [Permalink]

... karenfromillinois said on 1/14/2010 @ 11:12 am PT...





brad,

this is what i get when i use the official results link We're sorry... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The page you are looking for cannot be found.

The page you requested is either temporarily unavailable, has been renamed, or has been permanently moved to another location. The links below may help you find the page you were looking for elsewhere on our site.

COMMENT #13 [Permalink]

... karenfromillinois said on 1/14/2010 @ 11:45 am PT...





once i get started on this its like a math game and it is hard to stop even if i get very little response,but i apprciate brad letting me use his column to vent(altho i sometimes think no one reads it but my personal nsa watcher,hi btw whoever u might be lol ) on page 18 of the report i looked at santa monica,

official ballots cast are 762,total votes on prop 8 are 742 which gives us an undervote of 20 buttttttt in santa monica 534 peops responded telling us they had a combined vote on prop 8 of 510,,,thats 24 undervotes i went on to look at prop 4 in santa monica,official report says they have 762 ballots cast and 710 total votes so that is 52 undervotes but of our 534 responants they told us they gave a total vote of 482 which is 52 undervotes(so if the responants told the truth not 1 non responant undervoted on prop 4)

COMMENT #14 [Permalink]

... Katie said on 1/14/2010 @ 1:27 pm PT...





Jeannie Dean: The issue here is that having to consider the possibility that the electronic voting machines are being rigged by conservative Christianists who own the companies that sell and manage the electronic voting machines is not sexy. Beyond being unattractive, your average "socially aware" GLBT Californian voter/activist just doesn't want to have to consider the possibility that there is a HUGE problem with how the votes are not getting counted correctly, or how the votes aren't getting counted at all or they are being switched for the other side. This story requires that they do their own research, go to the internet, subscribe to Brad's blog, read a few books about recently stolen elections, get angry about and do something about it. They don't want to go there. Challenging the election results in this country is as unamerican as being a registered socialist. Jeannie: I called Mayor Gavin Newsom's GLBT liason and he has complete faith in California's voting systems, even the LA County Prop 8 results. He also doesn't think the Nov 2004 election was rigged in Bush's favor but he WILL concede that there was a "little problem" with the Nov 2000 Gore v Bush election. So this is the status quo. Saying that there are problems with electronic voting machines, tabulators that count the ballots, optical scanners is like saying you want to go back to the "dark ages" and do away with electronic computers with regards to voting. So the Prop 8 folks find it much easier to look pretty for the cameras as they protest outside the steps of the courthouse in San Francisco than it is to do something and educate everyone that there is a problem with these electronic voting machines and it's resulting in election results that cannot be verified, let alone trusted. The City of SF should be FIRST to demand a full investigation into the Prop 8 LA County voting results but they, the mayor, the City Attorney and Board of Sups, won't consider this issue. They will thank you for the information, and say "That's interesting" and then delete your email and DO NOTHING! It's so incredibly frustrating when the real issue is being avoided: the unsexy problems of votes that aren't being counted correctly, if at all, by electronic machines that are run by conservative rightwingers who can easily get away with selling key races for the right amount of money.

COMMENT #15 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 1/14/2010 @ 1:42 pm PT...





Katie said I called Mayor Gavin Newsom's GLBT liason and he has complete faith in California's voting systems, even the LA County Prop 8 results

___________________ Perhaps the last person you want to contact regarding the status of e-voting is a public official. They've been in denial since HAVA passed.

COMMENT #16 [Permalink]

... Jim Cirile said on 1/14/2010 @ 2:14 pm PT...





I forwarded this article to 18 leaders at GLAAD and other organizations. But I too have been shouting about this for ages, and have not yet ever even received a reply from any of those groups. It's like ANSWER--they're so set on their own way of protesting that they cannot see that we need to attack the cancer, not the symptoms (some would say this is by design.) With this report, how can anyone doubt the results are fraudulent? And yet the denialists will. Similarly, today someone posted audio of the doomed firefighters inside the WTC towers talking about the explosive charges going off. Seriously, the heroes of 9-11 talking quite clearly saying the buildings were rigged to blow. Yet will this convince anyone? What a sad, sad state America finds itself in.

COMMENT #17 [Permalink]

... Ross Levin said on 1/14/2010 @ 3:42 pm PT...





Brad did you see the link I posted the other day about a voting machine lobbyist tampering with a primary? http://www.greenpartywat...ng-green-party-election/

COMMENT #18 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 1/14/2010 @ 6:54 pm PT...





Ross - I did, thanks. It was one of a number of pieces (along with NYC's choice of ES&S, even after that admission) that I had hoped to cover, but simply wasn't able to. Ran out of time and fingers May still get to it at some point, in some fashion. Appreciate the reminder!

COMMENT #19 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 1/14/2010 @ 7:20 pm PT...





Karen @ 12: Let me look into it, and see if I can get a fixed link there! Sorry about that!

COMMENT #20 [Permalink]

... zapkitty said on 1/14/2010 @ 7:44 pm PT...





Meanwhile over at the Great Orange Ostrich Haven some brave soul wrote a diary on this... and is learning the hard way about people with their heads so deep in the sand that oil companies are purchasing leases on their necks.

COMMENT #21 [Permalink]

... Ross Levin said on 1/14/2010 @ 7:56 pm PT...





Zapkitty, that was me. I'm getting slaughtered there for it. I guess 2000 wasn't enough of a wake up call for them. I also posted it to docudharma.com, progressiveelectorate.com, progressive-independence.org, opednews.com, and greenchange.org.

COMMENT #22 [Permalink]

... zapkitty said on 1/14/2010 @ 8:16 pm PT...





... 2000... ... 2004... ... 2006... ... 2008... Every warning sign disregarded in order to conform to the "conventional wisdom" that Americam elections are never ever messed with... much less messed with by those entrusted with running the elections. As for dkosians... many are actually sensible on the subject but right now your article is getting tag-teamed by a few who are trying to drive it down and enforce the "conventional wisdom." You will come to believe that certain humans can penetrate the Mohorovičić Discontinuity with their eyebrows...

COMMENT #23 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/14/2010 @ 10:52 pm PT...





@ Karen from I~! I get it! After reading your posts several times and breaking out the calculator and squinting and struggling and taking a handful of ginkgo paloba and a muscle relaxer - YES! The official results (seem to) have jimmied undervotes. FASCINATING. So, do you think they skimmed / inflated / padded where they needed it from a precint-by-precinct bound pool of (pre-determined) undervote totals? Are you seeing similar evidence of that intra-districting shell game we saw in New Hampshire where they rob from Paul's (votes)in Ward 5 to pick a Peter in Ward 6?... No wonder they're making it damn near impossible for citizens to get precinct by precinct results. Could blow the whole game, especially with all these pesky, genius statisticians like Karen from Illinois and Richard Hayes Phillips lurking about. Love your brain, K from I.

COMMENT #24 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/14/2010 @ 11:41 pm PT...





Katie @ 14 ~ Such a thoughtful response, felt like a warm milk blanket dose of empath. Thank you. It had a tangible effect on my mad sad. You're right, of course. I knew it as I was reading you. Later, as your post bounced around

my head while riding my bike home from work - your incredible Gavin Newsom's GLBT liason story "having complete faith" story, most notably - drew me to thinking: 'well, then, ignoring this (sic rigging) means the gay activist (or any of us who dismiss hard evidence of said election theft) would rather believe the worst in each other, than go out of their way to consider how the worst from our elected officials is far more likely, far more destructive, and pretty honkin' self-evident. You'd have to WANT to blame the pro-Obama "black voting block" (lie / wasn't true at all) and the "Mormons" (not a lie, sort of true - but of more importance and never ever mentioned, discussed - only once reported on, to my knowledge:) the connection between the crazy anti-gay, Christian reconstructionalist Howard F. Ahmanson, who got PROP 8 on the ballot, and who has direct ties to the voting machine comapanies, go figure: "The Man Behind Prop 8" (Alternet - 11/4/2008)

http://www.alternet.org/...an_behind_proposition_8/ ..."Ahmanson once resided in a mental institution in Kansas, he now occupies a position among the Christian right’s power pantheon as one of the movement’s most influential donors. During a 1985 interview with the Orange County Register, Ahmanson summarized his political agenda: “My goal is the total integration of biblical law into our lives.” The campaign to teach “intelligent design” in public school classrooms, the Republican takeover of the California Assembly, and the rollback of affirmative action in California—Ahmanson has been behind them all. He has also taken a special interest in anti-gay crusades. Thanks again, Katie, Jim C., all - only thing to do is keep shouting it, digging it, tweeting it, rebleeping it, flirty-birdy it, buzzit and step-it-up. Full winded sail or no.

Fully deployed airbag, or no....

COMMENT #25 [Permalink]

... Ross Levin said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:09 pm PT...





Someone at Dkos actually brought up an interesting point - this study doesn't account for absentee ballots, which a lot of people use in California (supposedly) even if they don't need to.

COMMENT #26 [Permalink]

... karenfromillinois said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:33 pm PT...





jeanie,

thank you for taking the time to read and do the math,to be fair i nevr can prove who benefits from the numbers moving,i only can document that they do indeed move butttttttttttt hypothetically if undervotes were added to vote totals for the yes crowd on prop 8 precinct by precint statewide,it could change the result on that question(who knows maybe they can take yes votes from prop 4 and add them to prop 8,since this report shows those numbers moved too) the undervote totals on prop 8 are pretty low for a question so far down the ballot for example the presidential race had 181,277 undervotes,prop 8 had 340,611 undervotes,and prop 12,the vetrans bond question(which passed overwhelmingly)had 1,454,351 undervotes...so if the official numbers are true and correct the same peops that came out in droves in cali to support the first black man as president also decided to deny gay folks their constitutional rights to decide who their spouse is but didnt bother to vote on the vet issue(to put it in context most props have ovr a million undervotes) one other thing stuck out to me after brad got that sos link working(ty brad btw)the summary of votes page has a dif order of reporting than the individual race pages does for president,on ind pres race reporting write ins harris and baldwin are last but on the summary page harris and paul are reported last,,,,my suspious mind wonders if some label switching accurred

COMMENT #27 [Permalink]

... Emily Levy said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:36 pm PT...





Karen #12, the link to the CA SoS website in the has now been updated in the BRAD BLOG piece. It'll be updated in the report itself on at WasProp8Straight.org as soon as we can get to it.

COMMENT #28 [Permalink]

... karenfromillinois said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:27 pm PT...





ross @ 25, i am not sure what u mean about abs not being included because they are in the ballot counts of the report,,,for instance on page 31 of the report it details the responders numbers,the refusals numbers take those 2 sums equaling 540 subtract it from ballots cast,u have 29 abs..it looks to me like the percentages come from the total ballot cast results reported by the state but maybe emily can confirm that

COMMENT #29 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:49 pm PT...





Karen @ 26 writes:

"...the same peops that came out in droves in cali to support the first black man as president also decided to deny gay folks their constitutional rights to decide who their spouse is but didnt bother to vote on the vet issue... Thank you for that succinct explanation. Righto. That's just plain off. Great eye. And am I getting you right that a MILLION undervotes from just one district (L.A.) is the standard for ALL Prop election results in '08?

Holy Bones. I know we're the largest district in the country n'all, but doesn't that number seem a little high?

COMMENT #30 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:51 pm PT...





oops. I botched my italicization. Sorry, 99! [ed note: Calamity averted with one hand behind my back.... Not to worry. Not to worry. —99]

COMMENT #31 [Permalink]

... karenfromillinois said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:42 pm PT...





jeanie,the undervotes are statewide as were the presidential undervotes i mentioned...i take the sos ballots cast,the sum of yes and no votes,subtract that from total voters and get undervotes/////////

1a had 1,046,748 undervotes

2 had 807,670 uv

3 had 1,104,272 uv

4 had 794,226 uv

5 had 1,021,188 uv

6 had 1,359,158 uv

7 had 1,085,761 uv

8 had 340,611 uv

9 had 1,331,744 uv

10 had 1,180,357 uv

11 had 1,750,489 uv

12 had 1,454,351 uv as my kindergarten teacher said,which one of these does not belong ..lol

COMMENT #32 [Permalink]

... Sally said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:05 pm PT...





I imagine you were all suspicious of that result the minute it was announced. I certainly didn't buy it. But you have to be able to back up claims even if they can't and as usual thats what you are doing. Im getting really confused about the new world order. I keep hearing they are socialist but they seem to be facist warmongers. Is there more than one faction here?

I need some help with this conspiracy. Anyone have a link.

COMMENT #33 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/17/2010 @ 11:34 am PT...





Hi, Sally. Yes, we were. Most of us have been intimately, fiercely involved in trying to point out and prevent U.S. election fraud now for years. In this case, PROP 8 showed all of the statistical anomalies we have grown accustomed to in what we now recognize as verified, manipulated results. For more info on the PROP 8 study:

http://www.wasprop8straight.org/ Like Karen points out above, in so many of these close, big money races, the official numbers simply don't add up - and incredibly no one ever seems to notice. Here's a great link to a video of Prof. Steven Freeman from 2006 explaining the forensic, scientific evidence behind the OHIO 2004 election fraud that gave Bush his second term in office: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbysi62oFCc Finally, I'm not sure who you're listening to re: "the New World Order" being socialist. There are so many websites and experts, some legit, some not - NWO is such a broad, sweeping term and it often conflated with rumor and speculation. I think you would find that most of us here link these stolen elections to private interests / criminal orgs and corporations who buy politicians / elections to serve whatever ends meet their limitless needs. As to who they are, we don't really know. But they are NOT socialists, Sally. In fact, they are the OPPOSITE of socialists. Yes, they are much closer to Fascists (fascism = corporate rule of government) but I personally, think what we have here is an oligarchy (the top 1% of wealth controls the bottom 99%). As a result, Democrats and Republicans are (almost) entirely bought and paid for - and we believe they aren't thanks to these voting systems / faulty, hack-able pieces of junk we vote on. http://www.youtube.com/u...edean#p/u/53/od28M5RnOMI (Video log of 2006 election problems / collected and produced by Video the Vote) Thank you so much for asking, Sally.

Stick around BradBlog, if you really want to learn more. Brad runs a very tight ship, over here - a stickler for facts that will allow you to not only back up your (fine) instincts when you think an election might be a stinker, but to also be able to PROVE it. The problem we face is in getting people to acknowledge that proof...

COMMENT #34 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 1/17/2010 @ 11:41 am PT...





Oh! And how could I forget! www.blackboxvoting.org That's Bev Harris' website (from the Emmy nominated "HACKING DEMOCRACY). She's like the Nancy Drew of stolen elections. A GREAT source. (Karen from Illinois works very closely with them...) If you haven't seen HBO's riveting documentay HACKING DEMOCRACY, you can find it here on Google:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVlZTWH7u8w ...chilling.

COMMENT #35 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:36 pm PT...





JD said: the Nancy Drew of stolen elections. :-)

COMMENT #36 [Permalink]

... Sally said on 1/18/2010 @ 5:12 am PT...





Hello Jeanie Thanks so much for the links. Ive been lurking here since 2005. The elite certainly seem to be hate socialism but I've seen quite a few sites claiming the new world order are CFR who apparantly want a communist socialist world government. Of course the differnce between communism and socialsim are major but it seems the right use communism in an attempt to smear socialists and the left at every opportunity. Theres no long term problem with any system as long as you can get rid of it at the next eletion if you don't like it. The problem is western democracy is under threat.

I definitely think there is a takeover going on which has been planned for a long time and that CFR and the trilaterals are a part of that but their actions are not that of socialists.

You have an oligarchy like you say.

More people than we think might know whats going on but just turn their heads the other way.

There are those who will just follow any system that has control and go along with anything to remain a part of what they think is mmainstream society no matter how sick that society is.

COMMENT #37 [Permalink]

... Edward Miessner said on 1/21/2010 @ 3:20 am PT...

