iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-17 13:32:33 #1

Video Version



Table of Content

1.0.......Introduction

2.0.......Build Order

3.0.......Execution

3.1.......Thought process in general

3.2.......How to engage

3.3.......How to react to cheeses

4.0.......Replays

5.0.......Feedback





Introduction top Because of recent incidents: I am not the "shokz-guide" guy. My name is iSHOKZ (like iphone)

Hello Teamliquid community, my name is iSHOKZ and I am currently a master player on the EU Server with the race random. One of my best match-ups so far is the TvZ, with this mech build-order. Right now i am 11 wins and 0 loses with it (+ cup wins)

I do also want to mention: No I am not the "shokz" you know from the shokz guides, my name is iSHOKZ, i'm a completely other person and i did not steal that name.

My stats with this build can be seen here. I do also use it quite successfully in TvT, but it has its weaknesses there. For those who call the amount of games not representative, i did also use it in weekly cups with good success.

Note: This is no Build proofed for grandmasters, its just a solid macro-build for all those masters and below players who want to play mech.

+ Show Spoiler +



Build Order top In general we don't have to have a complicated build order here, we can just follow this sequence by building what we need whenever we can afford it.

reaper opening -> expand -> reactor factory , techlab on barracks afterwards -> expand -> 2nd gas -> 2 more factorys, and armory and 3rd gas.

Buildorder in supply:

10 - Supplydepot (send out the worker before the 9th finishes, everything here needs to be tight)

11 - Barracks

11 - Gas

14 - Reaper

15 - OC

15 - Supplydepot

16 - 2nd and last Reaper

19 - Build CC in your main

20 - Factory + Reactor on the Baracks

23 - Build CC in your main (you cc's will give you the supply when you need it, next depot starts when 3rd cc finishes)

24 - Swap factory and barracks, techlab on barracks, build 2 widowmines, morph oc, build 2nd gas, start 2nd factory



From now on you just add the 3rd gas on the natural as soon as you feel safe, depending on the scouting done by your reapers. When you can afford it go for the 3rd factory and an armory. You should be able to produce +1 weapon when the armory finishes and 2 thors in case you need them against incoming mutas.



Execution top A good build is useless with bad execution. So be sure to produce workers nonstop, don't get supply-blocked, add more factorys in the course of the game and also add more OC's in the lategame.

Since we play mech and don't need that many minerals in the lategame, we constantly add OCs and scan the zerg army, the reinforcements he builds and his tech, so we don't get surprised by a muta switch or something.

In the following we are going to take a look at the thought process behind the build, engagements, unit compositions and some adaptiations we need to make in certain situations

Random Notes: Never push with less then 3 thors in case of a muta switch. (+widows). I like to skip the hellion transformation upgrade and produce battle hellions right away. Use burrowed widow-mines to scout key map-paths. This build also works in TvT if you react accordingly.

Thought process in general top With HotS terran received a lot of buffs. Tanks don't require siege mode and the widow mine and battle-hellions are two new factory units. These buffes are great defensively, so you should be able to use them as a terran and go very eco heavy without being punished. The new reaper gives us the ability to scout the opening of a zerg. Since we go 3OC we have no other mapcontrol than the early reapers which are crucial to see what the oponent is doing.

Now let us have a look at the other side, at the zerg points of view. Terran has new mech potential. The zerg has got vipers now, swarmhosts and a hydra buff. The hydras should not bother a mech player to much and the other two units will be in the game as soon as a 3 OC build kicks in. We will take a look at how to play vs. them in the next section. How to engage top The most important part with a mech army is the engagement. We are not very mobile and can't micro our units to the korean potential, but with a mech army you are able to get huge advantages through positioning. Once you know how to control and position your army correctly you feel unbeatable.

In general: When you push out (at around 150-160 supply) you want to use the architecture of the map as best as you can. Always move and siege next to "dead-space", so the zerg has less surface area with his army to attack you. Think about where the zerg wants to fight, and slowly push towards it, don't push to fast, there is almost no timer on your army composition like in WoL, you now have a much easier time dealing with broodlords because of the new thor. If you know where the zerg wants to engage your army, set your first tanks up separately in the back. You want to make a huge siege-tank line ! Most likely the zerg will have a maxed roach army. If your tanks are spread, the zerg engages the tanks in the front first while those in the back deal alot of damage. If the frontal tank is down the zerg needs to run to the next tank to take it down. Once the tanks in the front are dead, the zerg needs to close the distance to the next tanks to be able to attack them.Furthermore you have more potential to reposition a part of your army if you have a spread tank-line. Lets say you see the zerg wants to basetrade, you can just unsiege your tanks in the front and siege them back slowly, while the tanks in the back cover them.

To get the perfect split, i like to have a hellion in "hellion-mode" to scout ahead of the army. When I am in the position to siege the first tanks i just seperatley click them and tell them to siege, while i move command the rest of my army closer to the zerg. (Watch the video guide for better understanding)

Pictures are worth a thousand words:

+ Show Spoiler +



Scan ahead and siege the first tanks in case the zerg wants to engage





We are spread out perfectly and the obstacles help us because the zerg needs to run around them. We win the fight with few losses and the zerg will try to remax quickly, so don't get over eager.





So our reinforcements arrive, we brought some scvs for buffer and repair. The zerg also remaxed and we scan that he might consider to base-trade.





Our reaction is to unsiege the right part of our tank-line and move it to the left, in this way we are safe if he wants to base-trade, but also if he wants to force the engagement.





He decides to engage, because we had defensive tanks and were about to sandwich him.





Like a Boss, look at the supply.

Scan ahead and siege the first tanks in case the zerg wants to engageWe are spread out perfectly and the obstacles help us because the zerg needs to run around them. We win the fight with few losses and the zerg will try to remax quickly, so don't get over eager.So our reinforcements arrive, we brought some scvs for buffer and repair. The zerg also remaxed and we scan that he might consider to base-trade.Our reaction is to unsiege the right part of our tank-line and move it to the left, in this way we are safe if he wants to base-trade, but also if he wants to force the engagement.He decides to engage, because we had defensive tanks and were about to sandwich him.Like a Boss, look at the supply.



Versus Ultralisks: This is similar to TvP versus mass chargeleg. Create choke areas by using your lategame factorys as part of a wall in front of your crucial mining base (for example in front of the 4th at daybreak). Then wait until you are maxed and slowley edge forward. Your army composition can include many thors vs. ultralisks.

Versus Broodlords: Thor Viking demolishes broodlord compositions.

Versus Broodlord Swarmhost Corruptor: I may consider this as the hard counter. You should try to kill the zerg before he gets this. If he has this composition i think the only counter is making enough vikings to kill of the corruptors, then kill the broodlords without support and try to overwhelm the swarmhosts afterwards. Even a mass Air switch might be viable here.

Versus Mutas: Just go for thor battle-hellion and mix in some widow-mines if you want. If its no surprising muta switch you should not lose to that.

Versus Vipers: Low Viper numbers benefit your army strength in theory if they use blinding cloud. Vipers cost 3 supply and if your spread they take away one of your tanks fire, so 3 supply aswell, BUT if the zerg engages, the tank will still act as a buffer and the zerg needs to kill it at first. When you have no vikings you can't do anything about abducts, rather than be ok with it or retreat. If you have vikings the vipers will die very fast and you are also prepared for some air switches.

How to react to... top React to cheese: We do not only go for the fast reaper opening to kill some drones, we mainly use it for the scouting information. You will see the gastiming of the zerg and can even sacrifice one reaper to scout if he did mine more than 100 gas. If this is the case and you scouted and all in like 1 base roach, or he did make a huge amount of zerglings which indicates a baneling bust, just build a bunker in your main, send your reaper(s) in, produce the first 2 widow mines, followed by 2 hellions and pump marauders out of your techlab baracks.

React to fast mutas: Since we saw the gas timing we now know if a zerg has the potential to go for fast mutas. We can pump out 2 thors when the armory is done, this will line up perfectly. We do also go for an ebay and protect the mineral line, the production and crucial sieged tanks with a turret or two. It is better to overreact to mutas, since mutas are a heavy investment for the zerg and an overall pretty bad unit vs. our playstyle.

React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame

React to heavy pressure: On some maps it might be harder to secure a third base due to the layout. But remember, the harder it is for you to get a third, the harder it is for the zerg to defend hellion run-byes and harassment.





Replays top Replaypack

consisting out of 8 TvZ using this build: Download here

Versus

1 Base Roach All-In - http://drop.sc/316311

2 Base Baneling Bust - http://drop.sc/316313

Roachdrop on Whirlwind - http://drop.sc/316315

Ultra Lategame featuring Ultralisks,Vipers, Broodlords - http://drop.sc/316312



Feedback top I really hope you liked the guide, whether the video or the text version. I would appreciate any form of feedback and criticism. Have you tested the build yet and did it work out for you? You have some adaptions to make it better? You think this build is bad, tell me why?



Furthermore I would love to see you as a part of the inFluenceTV community

B.net Community Channel (EU) "inFluenceTV" - Ask questions and chat with us !

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And also our B.net Community Channel (EU) "inFluenceTV" - Ask questions and chat with us ! Our twitch.tv Caster Channel, twitch.tv/influencetv - We provide high level sc2 castingAnd also our Facebook-Site for more updates



Good luck with the build,

iSHOKZ



Thanks to iFsmN for helping at this guide



More iSHotS ; HotS with iSHOKZ Guides

+ Show Spoiler + [G] ZvT Roach Hydra Style



papaz Profile Joined December 2009 Sweden 4129 Posts #2 Finally a good mech TvZ guide. Just saying thanks. Will read and learn

haaz Profile Joined May 2010 157 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 10:59:18 #3

Very clean to read I like it.



But



Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?

I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.



So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark?



First of all your guide looks pretty damn good.Very clean to read I like it.ButWhy should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark? React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame

You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport. You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport. temp banned: 2 warnings: 8, my little achievments 8), last update: 23-05-2013

LardMaster Profile Joined May 2012 United Kingdom 123 Posts #4 On April 02 2013 19:57 haaz wrote:

First of all your guide looks pretty damn good.

Very clean to read I like it.



But



Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?

I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.



So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark?



Show nested quote +

React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame

You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport. First of all your guide looks pretty damn good.Very clean to read I like it.ButWhy should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark?You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport.

You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens

haaz Profile Joined May 2010 157 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 11:27:25 #5 You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens

Yeah, but what stops zerg for just droning 10 minutes in game? 2 reapers?

There is no harras included in this build just timing attack after 14 min mark.



You saying that when you see greater spire you just start building vikings/ravens? Its far too late.



You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?

Both answers are fail.

Making starports before push means you weaken push itself = you did nothing with. Late banshees will not help either because zerg got spire and 3rd base already with spores.

Making starports after push means its already gg for you because zerg have greater spire already and you have got no time to counter zerg air



Damn zerg can just make mass swarm hosts and a-move you. He will make infestation pit anyway.

And with afk 10 minutes droning he will get maxed with 4-5 bases at 12 minutes. Yeah, but what stops zerg for just droning 10 minutes in game? 2 reapers?There is no harras included in this build just timing attack after 14 min mark.You saying that when you see greater spire you just start building vikings/ravens? Its far too late.You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?Both answers are fail.Making starports before push means you weaken push itself = you did nothing with. Late banshees will not help either because zerg got spire and 3rd base already with spores.Making starports after push means its already gg for you because zerg have greater spire already and you have got no time to counter zerg airDamn zerg can just make mass swarm hosts and a-move you. He will make infestation pit anyway.And with afk 10 minutes droning he will get maxed with 4-5 bases at 12 minutes. temp banned: 2 warnings: 8, my little achievments 8), last update: 23-05-2013

iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 11:30:15 #6 On April 02 2013 19:57 haaz wrote:

....

Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?

I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.



So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark?



Show nested quote +

React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame

You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport. ....Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark?You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport.



Thanks for feedback,

as mentioned above this is only a buildorder until you have the 3 factorys, after that you have to adapt your playstyle depending on what you scouted. If I know there will be broodlords I will prepare with starports, as easy as it is. There are 2 games in the replaypack where i play vs. broodlords and they just die.



The lack of early harassment options is really a thing that i don't like either. I don't want to say that helion banshee allows you to harass the zerg heavily, but it definitely has more options to.

In regards to the helion banshee 3CC opening: With that opening you really have a hard time against well timed roach all-ins, which become more and more popular in HotS. Furthermore you delay a strong mechpush by delaying tankproduction.



In masters-league the strong macro into timing push was almost enough to finish every zerg, without early harassment (i don't know if its viable in grandmasters, but it worked fine vs. better zerg aswell). But why dont you just add a starport after the "buildorder" is finished and go for widow-mine or battle-helion drops with helion harass on the same time, if you want?

Or if you see the zerg drones to heavily just force units by faking a push.

So just adapt the "buildorder" and don't play every game down like before. Even if the zerg just goes up to 80 drones asap, you will be fine in a macrogame with those 3 OC's



A buildorder is adaptable !



edit:



Thanks for feedback,as mentioned above this is only a buildorder until you have the 3 factorys, after that you have to adapt your playstyle depending on what you scouted. If I know there will be broodlords I will prepare with starports, as easy as it is. There are 2 games in the replaypack where i play vs. broodlords and they just die.The lack of early harassment options is really a thing that i don't like either. I don't want to say that helion banshee allows you to harass the zerg heavily, but it definitely has more options to.In regards to the helion banshee 3CC opening: With that opening you really have a hard time against well timed roach all-ins, which become more and more popular in HotS. Furthermore you delay a strong mechpush by delaying tankproduction.In masters-league the strong macro into timing push was almost enough to finish every zerg, without early harassment (i don't know if its viable in grandmasters, but it worked fine vs. better zerg aswell). But why dont you just add a starport after the "buildorder" is finished and go for widow-mine or battle-helion drops with helion harass on the same time, if you want?Or if you see the zerg drones to heavily just force units by faking a push.So just adapt the "buildorder" and don't play every game down like before. Even if the zerg just goes up to 80 drones asap, you will be fine in a macrogame with those 3 OC'sA buildorder is adaptable !edit: On April 02 2013 20:26 haaz wrote:

...

You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?

Both answers are fail.

...



We have enough scans available to scout properly. I recommend you to watch those replays.

We have enough scans available to scout properly. I recommend you to watch those replays.

haaz Profile Joined May 2010 157 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 11:36:01 #7

So if your push fails, then its gg.



I would say its allin.



As I said above, with no harras included you relying too much on your push to do damage to zerg.So if your push fails, then its gg.I would say its allin. Even if the zerg just goes up to 80 drones asap, you will be fine in a macrogame with those 3 OC's

There was a guy (grandmaster terran I think he name was Avilo?) who played 4 OC mech and still get outmacroed hard.

He played simillar passive style and raged a lot when zerg just a-moved his armies.



Maybe 14 cc rax gas opener would be better to fasten the push but it wouldnt help that much with no harras me thinks.



There was a guy (grandmaster terran I think he name was Avilo?) who played 4 OC mech and still get outmacroed hard.He played simillar passive style and raged a lot when zerg just a-moved his armies.Maybe 14 cc rax gas opener would be better to fasten the push but it wouldnt help that much with no harras me thinks. In regards to the helion banshee 3CC opening: With that opening you really have a hard time against well timed roach all-ins

Thats why we can make widow mines now and collect wins Thats why we can make widow mines now and collect wins temp banned: 2 warnings: 8, my little achievments 8), last update: 23-05-2013

iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts #8 On April 02 2013 20:32 haaz wrote:

As I said above, with no harras included you relying too much on your push to do damage to zerg.

So if your push fails, then its gg.



...



I don't agree with that, and once again recommend you to watch those replays and I won't answer you furthermore because you don't seem to listen.

We have a running reactor factory that can start 2 Hellions at a time, after we have the first 2 Widow Mines. Use them to harass and be happy (as seen in those replays) I don't agree with that, and once again recommend you to watch those replays and I won't answer you furthermore because you don't seem to listen.We have a running reactor factory that can start 2 Hellions at a time, after we have the first 2 Widow Mines. Use them to harass and be happy (as seen in those replays)

MateShade Profile Joined July 2011 Australia 736 Posts #9 nice guide, would be nice if you played more games though and gave more detailed and specific answers as you improves your play style.



this definitely isn't a build you could win gsl with but its a solid macro style that many people masters and below can try, and you preface that so I think people need to take that into account when adding criticism

Markwerf Profile Joined March 2010 Netherlands 3723 Posts #10 hmm it's a fairly lengthy guide but very short in the interesting part: how to transition/play in the lategame. Vipers are quite a pain for this pain, some even think vipers instead of broodlords make the window of oppurtunity for mech even shorter than in WoL.

Just saying a blinding cloud takes out 1 tank thus 3 supply cancels eachother is very simplistic..

First of all it's quite hard to spread tanks enough to prevent blinding cloud owning you while at the same time they can't just pick off tanks with abduct. Besides that even if he does get 1 for 1 with his vipers (which can easily cast 2 clouds by the way) he is still getting a good deal because without tank support roach/hydra does really well agains the other factory units plus zerg tends to have a bigger economy.

The problem with mech at the moment seems to be that you need tanks to beat roaches/ultras but making too much makes you really vulnerable to vipers. Killing the vipers with vikings is easy but they tend to get off blinding clouds/abducts anyway neutralising your tanks after which they trade well with roaches, and then you are just screwed against a remax.

In higher levels you definately need a solid plan on how to deal with this if it's even possible at all. Seeing what the pro's play they don't feel comfortable in doing that which makes you wonder if mech is good at all.



Personally I've had some success with slowly mixing in some air later on. Instead of going too factory heavy you can just go for a mix of mech and BC's for example. You reduce your vulnerability to ultra's and blinding clouds in this fashion and BC's with the attack upgrade you have anyway are quite good.

Reaper into mech overall is a sweet way to open mech, instead of the 3rd OC going banshee or hellbat drop also works pretty well. I really wonder if we see some terrans using mech in the next GSL, I doubt it as long as MMMM just seems way better.

LardMaster Profile Joined May 2012 United Kingdom 123 Posts #11 On April 02 2013 20:26 haaz wrote:

Show nested quote +

You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens

Yeah, but what stops zerg for just droning 10 minutes in game? 2 reapers?

There is no harras included in this build just timing attack after 14 min mark.



You saying that when you see greater spire you just start building vikings/ravens? Its far too late.



You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?

Both answers are fail.

Making starports before push means you weaken push itself = you did nothing with. Late banshees will not help either because zerg got spire and 3rd base already with spores.

Making starports after push means its already gg for you because zerg have greater spire already and you have got no time to counter zerg air



Damn zerg can just make mass swarm hosts and a-move you. He will make infestation pit anyway.

And with afk 10 minutes droning he will get maxed with 4-5 bases at 12 minutes. Yeah, but what stops zerg for just droning 10 minutes in game? 2 reapers?There is no harras included in this build just timing attack after 14 min mark.You saying that when you see greater spire you just start building vikings/ravens? Its far too late.You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?Both answers are fail.Making starports before push means you weaken push itself = you did nothing with. Late banshees will not help either because zerg got spire and 3rd base already with spores.Making starports after push means its already gg for you because zerg have greater spire already and you have got no time to counter zerg airDamn zerg can just make mass swarm hosts and a-move you. He will make infestation pit anyway.And with afk 10 minutes droning he will get maxed with 4-5 bases at 12 minutes.

If you scout and scan for the greater spire, you can build them in time. Watch the replays. I like getting a starport around 12min at the latest to get ravens, but you don't have to. If you scout and scan for the greater spire, you can build them in time. Watch the replays. I like getting a starport around 12min at the latest to get ravens, but you don't have to.

haaz Profile Joined May 2010 157 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 12:49:58 #12 Watched some of the replays:



vs [CyG]Alpha (30 min game)

He was terrible. He played muta lings vs thor hellbat turret. I mean? wtf man?

He made ~40 banelings and then cancel them and lost a half.

He saw you got mass turret rings and still make mutalisks just only destroy some of them? (yeah his target were alone turrets not scvs).

He was lacking game plan. He played most of the time blind.

Even though you seemed to afraid him and attacked him after 16 min mark and 4th base placed.

He just made muta ling into ultra and pray he would win with that.



vs [Vin]BigL (30 min game)

Game starts with overreacting. He make spine crawler and ~20 lings to counter 2 reapers

Then he just suicide those lings to 2 mines. Make another lings and do this again.

Then he make 12+ roaches. 10 minute mark he got only 55 drones because of early stupid mistakes.

Here comes your 4 hellion harras and kills like 10 drones. You are far ahead now and can make anything you like but still game last 20 minutes more dont rly know why. Watching what happens.

He mass drones. Damn he was 20 drones away from you now he is even (no harras).

He does doom drop with roaches and manage to kill 20+ scvs.

17 minutes in game he is still on roach tech. He started spire and then greater.

You got no anti air. You go kill him after seeing greater spire ready. You manage to kill him before broodlords.



vs maths (7 min game)

He was random. You manage to kill 3 drones with 1 reaper and some lings. He choose to bane bust.

You defend with mines. Game over.



vs [iF]Renew (another 7 min game)

He did one base roach rush with bad build order. You scouted it with reaper and marauder bunker defended it.





Summary:

I dont say a word about those two 7 min games because its no need. You can just do the same with scv scout so no prove for reaper harras to be necessary.



In those two other games, you played afk macro games to 15-16 min mark, and then you push.

In those games you lack of anti air and only manage to win because of stupidness of enemies, no game plan by them, and even lack of mechanics, lack of metagame? and even though you seem to have some luck when you realized your lack of anti air. I mean who make roaches all game or mutalisk harras vs turret rings and thors?



If those players would just skip lings, defend with queens your reaper harras, then just afk make drones I am sorry but at 12 minutes mark zerg would have 4 bases and maxed already with no harras from your side. temp banned: 2 warnings: 8, my little achievments 8), last update: 23-05-2013

govie Profile Blog Joined November 2012 4058 Posts #13 1. Thx for the guide.

2. Everyone stop bitchin'plz.... Atleast a couple of peeps try to make new/old strategies work (again), The "what if" question is never relevant, as it didnt happen and u can adapt build orders. U cant expect a buildorderwin out of a 14 min push for example.

The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...

p14c Profile Joined May 2010 Vatican City State 430 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 13:40:04 #14 Mass tanks is never a good idea. In hots there are plenty of units that can counter tanks and once you lose them its very hard to replenish them. And lets not forget about mobility, it's a pain to defend a fourth base with mech. You say thors are good against mutas but the zerg player can harass all your bases exploiting the thor's lack of mobility. There is a reason why all pro players dont go full mech vs zerg, some of them aren't even build a single siege tank. Widow mines almost replaced tanks.

PS: That replay with the mass roach din't proved anything except that the Zerg player was bad. Game Over, Man! Game Over!

ZjiublingZ Profile Joined September 2011 United Arab Emirates 439 Posts #15 Versus Vipers: Low Viper numbers benefit your army strength in theory if they use blinding cloud. Vipers cost 3 supply and if your spread they take away one of your tanks fire, so 3 supply aswell, BUT if the zerg engages, the tank will still act as a buffer and the zerg needs to kill it at first. When you have no vikings you can't do anything about abducts, rather than be ok with it or retreat. If you have vikings the vipers will die very fast and you are also prepared for some air switches.



This is just wrong. Vipers have 2 Blinding Clouds at full energy, and because of Consume full energy isn't at all unrealistic. It's very, very common. So even if you split PERFECTLY you are still "trading" 6 supply of tanks per 3 supply Viper, and 300/250 for the 100/200 Viper. Against the opponent who should have more income than you. So I don't think your explanation for dealing with Vipers is satisfactory. This is just wrong. Vipers have 2 Blinding Clouds at full energy, and because of Consume full energy isn't at all unrealistic. It's very, very common. So even if you split PERFECTLY you are still "trading" 6 supply of tanks per 3 supply Viper, and 300/250 for the 100/200 Viper. Against the opponent who should have more income than you. So I don't think your explanation for dealing with Vipers is satisfactory.

Psychobabas Profile Blog Joined March 2006 United Kingdom 2530 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-02 14:55:07 #16 The build is very solid.



I do something extremely similar in my TvZ (I basically do exactly the same thing, without the reaper opening, relying on 2 bunkers, since I will be more mineral heavy in the beginning, and then adding the mines as I make the bunkers)and I've been meching since WoL release.

The only real weakness is if the Zerg hits at some ridiculous timing just as you swap the barracks with the factory (extremely unlikely as there is no standard push like that in usual ladder play, the guy would have to study your build to counter it like that).

or

Some really fast mutalisk play.



Not sure if it's been mentioned but it is absolutely crucial to this build to deny the overlord scout with your marines at mid+ master play.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bzlsFfIahY

iFVeritas Profile Joined January 2012 Ireland 29 Posts #17 Seems a bit weak to heavy all ins.



I prefer CC first into 5 rax + Reactor Factory. Push with 6-8 Mines. Seems to be verry good until now :D Killing Zergs so easy Verry Solid build. And nice GuideSeems a bit weak to heavy all ins.I prefer CC first into 5 rax + Reactor Factory. Push with 6-8 Mines. Seems to be verry good until now :D Killing Zergs so easy

Garmer Profile Joined October 2010 1286 Posts #18 i have a similar build, that let you push at 13:00(out of my base at 12:30) max and with the same things(4 thor 8 Hellbats and 8 tanks) i just made the 3cc after the attack and not before, you should try it, because pushing at 16 it's too late imho

Elldar Profile Joined July 2010 Sweden 284 Posts Last Edited: 2013-04-03 22:13:42 #19 On April 02 2013 19:38 iSHOKZ wrote:



React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame

React to heavy pressure: On some maps it might be harder to secure a third base due to the layout. But remember, the harder it is for you to get a third, the harder it is for the zerg to defend hellion run-byes and harassment.







Well, overall good guide and your engagement tips seem valid (and not many master terran is that cautious when playing mech, or at least those I've played against).

However I have to disagree with the statements above. For starters you can not ever expand with the zerg while going for mech, as soon as a zerg player scout that the terran is going mech he could throw down 2 bases and there is pretty much nothing a terran can do about it. (like 10 minute mark), zerg will become more vulnerable to harassment (hellion or banshee) but decent defense or map awareness should prevent that from happening.

Same goes for hellion runbys there is no way a zerg should lose map awareness to a meching player, if it is not overlords wandering about it should be lings or watchtowers, so he should see that coming and be able to respond. And controlling watchtowers and such should be easy for the zerg since he is beeing aggressive.

Besides runbys is better when you have the faster army so only if the zerg goes pure roach is that viable even so he has to not see to be effective. Well, overall good guide and your engagement tips seem valid (and not many master terran is that cautious when playing mech, or at least those I've played against).However I have to disagree with the statements above. For starters you can not ever expand with the zerg while going for mech, as soon as a zerg player scout that the terran is going mech he could throw down 2 bases and there is pretty much nothing a terran can do about it. (like 10 minute mark), zerg will become more vulnerable to harassment (hellion or banshee) but decent defense or map awareness should prevent that from happening.Same goes for hellion runbys there is no way a zerg should lose map awareness to a meching player, if it is not overlords wandering about it should be lings or watchtowers, so he should see that coming and be able to respond. And controlling watchtowers and such should be easy for the zerg since he is beeing aggressive.Besides runbys is better when you have the faster army so only if the zerg goes pure roach is that viable even so he has to not see to be effective.

iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts #20 On April 04 2013 03:37 Garmer wrote:

i have a similar build, that let you push at 13:00(out of my base at 12:30) max and with the same things(4 thor 8 Hellbats and 8 tanks) i just made the 3cc after the attack and not before, you should try it, because pushing at 16 it's too late imho



The push at the video was only so late because of how the match progressed. If you are able to macro up freely you can push sooner of course...



The push at the video was only so late because of how the match progressed. If you are able to macro up freely you can push sooner of course... On April 04 2013 03:20 iFVeritas wrote:

...Seems a bit weak to heavy all ins.



...



It is especially strong vs. heavy all ins !

You have early tanks, early 3 CC economy and early widow mines. And the reapers will tell you if there is an all in.





It is especially strong vs. heavy all ins !You have early tanks, early 3 CC economy and early widow mines. And the reapers will tell you if there is an all in. On April 02 2013 23:53 Psychobabas wrote:

...

Some really fast mutalisk play.

...





In my experience fast muta play is horrible against this. If the zerg goes fast mutas he won't have enough economy to hold my thor battle-helion push mixxed in with some tanks. I don't take any damage vs. mutas because of my thor timing and can push out like 3-4 minutes later with a huge army.

For example in a recent game vs. EmpireLerka: In my experience fast muta play is horrible against this. If the zerg goes fast mutas he won't have enough economy to hold my thor battle-helion push mixxed in with some tanks. I don't take any damage vs. mutas because of my thor timing and can push out like 3-4 minutes later with a huge army.For example in a recent game vs. EmpireLerka: http://drop.sc/317792 (Where i did not expect mutas, because i scanned double evo chamber)

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