We’ve never been anywhere close to firefighters on the approval scale. I mean, we are nurses.

You’re fighting with journalists at the bottom of the barrel.

Exactly. On the other hand, because of almost the cult of [Trump’s] power in the Republican Party, my colleagues that are Republicans that used to spend some time in the middle working to get things done have really kind of gone into their offices and shut their doors.

You tweeted the other day, “What have you done with Lindsey Graham?”

Yeah, no, we are worried about Lindsey. Lindsey, you know, I’m sure he would say the same thing about me. That would drive me crazy from time to time, but I also knew that, when there were things that we could agree on, he was a great partner and somebody who was fearless about whether or not it was the right thing to do in terms of the Republican brand. It doesn’t feel like that Lindsey is around much right now. Now, maybe he’ll resurface, but it feels like he’s gone away, and all of us are mourning him.

Do you think that the other Republican members—I mean, virtually all of them were against Trump in the 2016 primaries and, you know, there’s endless citations by people like me of all the times they called Trump a kook and unsuited to be President and the like. But have these folks fundamentally changed their minds? Is it purely opportunistic? I mean, are they just no longer free traders anymore, or they’re just waiting him out?

They’re waiting him out. I mean, this guy would be, he should hear the way these guys talk about him behind his back. You know, I’m sure that would unleash all manner of tweets, but—and I would never name any names—

But I’m sure it’s people including many Missouri Republicans.

Oh, no question. Oh, no question. And this is the thing. I mean, the danger for my Republican colleagues that know that many of the things that Trump has done are not their values, it’s not the way they see governing. It’s now his party. Period. And I believe there will be a time down the road that some of them will rue the day that they did not speak up more forcefully, did not say, “Wait a minute, this idea of using national security as an excuse for a really aggressive trade war with no exit plan”—and how about the deficit? You know, they’ve just abandoned any attempt. And that is really going to hurt us sooner rather than later because, as interest rates go up, that budget process is going to get more and more difficult. So it is frustrating to watch. I understand it on an intellectual level. But it doesn’t mean that it’s not sad.

Well, it’s interesting, so, you’re highlighting the policy conundrum, which is part of it, right? He is an outsider to their party. He’s come in. He’s won. He doesn’t really stand for the same things that have been Republican orthodoxy. Things like free trade, Russia, arguably, the deficit. Then there’s also kind of the character issue, which may become more ripe next year, depending on where these investigations go. Will Mitch McConnell stand with him until the end of the end of the end? I mean, theirs is kind of an unlikely alliance, too, right?

Mitch McConnell, I think, will stand with him as long as it is in the interests of the majority of the Senate right now, which is Republicans. He looks at everything through the lens of, How can I stay majority floor leader? How can I become majority floor leader, and how can I stay majority floor leader?

Well, I think that’s right. A lot of people don’t understand the thing about Mitch McConnell is that his dream, unlike a lot of the rest the Senate, was not to be President; it really is to be Senate Majority Leader. Now, L.B.J. at the height of his power is his model, right?

That’s exactly right. And everything he’s done, and everything he will do, will be done with that focus. He is fighting with Trump only when he thinks it’s necessary to protect the Republican members of the Senate. He will challenge Trump only when he thinks it’s in the best interests of the Republican members of the Senate. He will be quiet and say there’s nothing wrong with Trump, or pivot and deflect if he thinks it’s in the best interests of the Republican members of the U.S. Senate. And so that’s what will be the determining effect for Mitch McConnell, is how he can stay in power.

So you obviously represented Missouri. A lot of people say you’re one of the last of the Trump-country Democrats, that in the future it’s just going to be impossible to win in a place that has the demographics of a Missouri, with this heavy representation of rural counties and the like. Is there a future for Democrats in a place like Missouri?

Oh, sure. I got forty-five per cent of the vote. And I think, if I had never been in politics, and had an interesting résumé, and was an outsider, I think it would have been even closer. So this is a tough patch for Democrats in Missouri, but I do not believe it’s the end of the Democrats in Missouri. I think, you know, it wasn’t that long ago, it was November of 2016, when the majority of the statewide office holders in Missouri were Democrats. Well, a state doesn’t change that much that quickly. This is it. This is a thing that was exacerbated by, you know—I mean, and let’s give the guy who ran against me some credit. He’s young, he’s telegenic, he’s articulate, he clearly is intelligent, and he took direction well by his campaign team and stayed very disciplined in the last three months of the campaign.

And so the Kavanaugh thing helped him. The caravan helped him. So I think there were a lot of intangibles that helped Josh Hawley win this election.

Was the caravan made up? Was it a fake issue?

Well, no, I don’t think it is. I mean, there are now six thousand people that are poor and tired and hungry and living in squalor trying to get into the United States.

Do you need the military to fight six thousand people?

I think all of that might have been political optics. I do think that the caravan presented a problem; it just wasn’t a problem that was presented to the American people that, somehow, we needed to have the military on the border to—what? Mow ’em down as they came across the border? Shoot ’em? I mean, that was, like, that was made-for-television bullshit.

Trump came in really hard against you. He was there twice in Missouri in the last week alone. Did you do something to piss him off?

No, I just think they looked at the races that they thought they could win to hold the Senate. I think Mitch McConnell did this. I think Mitch McConnell directed this. I made the joke during the campaign that he’d come so often I figured he was building a golf course somewhere in Missouri, because Donald Trump never goes anywhere that frequently unless there’s golf involved. But it was painful because I knew that he was building enthusiasm on his side. About ninety days before the election, we felt pretty good. And then the enthusiasm on their side just popped up.