TOG article up for deletion

TOG is a hackerspace in Dublin, Ireland. It's a group owned, communal shared workplace and social place for it's members. TOG runs regular events, on microcontrollers (e.g. Arduino), programming and crafts (e.g. sewing). like everything important, TOG has a wikipedia article

Update 23rd February 2011

TOG's wikipedia page is staying! Thanks to all who gave advice. MAKE blog covered this wikipedia/hackerspace problem, and I posted to the hackerspace discuss mailing list.

On 8th of February 2011 the TOG wikipedia article was nominated for deletion. The original complaint was that there were only a very few sources and that most of the sources were from TOG's own website.

This is a fair point, there were few few independent sources. I set about researching and found a whole pile of sources, from many different places. I updated and expanded the article and added this sources, and have engaged in a discussion with the original editor about it. As of now , this is still outstanding.

Some of the discussion about sources was quite interesting. The editor who proposed deletion (ArcAngel), made some statements about sources that were easily and quickly refuted. For example, he claimed to have researched some of the sources and found them lacking:

I researched all of the references ... The Science Gallery does not appear to be a reliable source ... DigitalHub is a blog, so again not reliable. I am unsure about the Irish Times, but being a newspaper I will assume good faith that it is reliable.

As an Irish person, some of this seemed preposterous and false, as I explained:

The Digital Hub is a technology incubator complex in Dublin, Ireland, managed by the Irish Government. ... They are more than a blog ... Irish Times has been around for 100+ years and is the second most popular newspaper in Ireland with 100,000+ daily circulations ... The Science Gallery is a public science themed exhibition space, and is part of Trinity College Dublin, one of the largest universitys in Ireland, is more than 400 years old, and is ranked 43rd best university in the world

It only took a few minutes of my research to find this out. I do not believe this editor did any serious deligent research into these sources.

Other hackerspaces cannot be trusted apparently!

TOG has interacted with other hackerspaces around the world. I added them as sources to this article. ArcAngel does not think they are suitable, since:

Artifactory is a hackerspace site, so it's not independent of the subject. Same with 091Labs.

This I find quote strange. This editor is suggesting that other hackerspaces are not suitable as references to a hackerspace, since they are not independent of the subject . I thought this was a discussion on the sources for this article, not on wether or not hackerspaces should be listed on wikipedia. If hackerspaces, in general belong on wikipedia, then there should be no blanket ban on using them as sources.

Afterall, books are used as references to other books, films are used as refences to other films, and a newspaper article can be used as a reference to another newspaper article. What if a wikipedia article on a newspaper was up for deletion, and a source was added from another newspaper. Could we ignore that source since newspapers are not independent of the subject ?! No, of course not.

Other hackerspaces are also affected

There are several other hackerspace wikipages up for deletion. e.g. Metalab in Vienna, HacDC, in Washington DC, Kiberpipa, in Ljubljana, and 091 Labs, in Galway. Several of them are still pending, but in some cases, they have been decided to be kept.

The same user has suggested all these deletions, ArcAngel.

Once again, the editor said that he could not find sources for the article, claims that have since been refuted.

For the hackerspace in Washinton DC, HacDC I cannot find any significant third-party coverage to establish the notability of this building. , Refution: it was the subject of an article in the Washington Post and has been mentioned by Make Magazine, Wired, MSN, and NPR , the editor eventually conceded, At this point it's pretty clear there are sources out there, I just wasn't looking in the right spots I guess. For the hackerspace in Vienna, Metalab Claim: Doing a diligent search, I can find no significant third-party coverage of this location that establishes the notability of this organization. Refution: There is international mention e.g. at wired and make online , Furthermore Metalab is specifically listed as Notable Hackerspace on the main Hackerspace article , the city of Vienna mentions on their website

What can you do?

Involved with a hackerspace?

Are you involved with a hackerspace that has a wikipedia page? Look at it, it might be suggested for deletion. Look at the complaints that are there. Are they valid? Does the editor have a point? Can you improve that article? Do you need more sources? Do you have sources?

One great thing about this incident was how it spured me on to making that wikipedia article better. It now has more content (which I found when editing) and it now has more sources. This has been boon to that TOG wikipedia page, and to wikipedia in general. I have been able to research more about what TOG has done, such as the activies around Engineers Week or the Sciecne Gallery.

Involved with wikipedia?

Are you involved with wikipedia? I'm not massively active on wikipedia and don't know much about most of it's policies. I might be doing something wrong. Could you look at the TOG wikipedia page, and the sources. Could you look at the page suggestion it for deletion. Is there anything I've missed? Is there something more I can do help wikipedia, or improve that article? What's your opinion of that page? Should it be deleted? Right now, only myself and ArcAngel are discussing it, do you have anything to add? Do you have feedback? Please give it.