michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[music]

archived recording (donald trump) Every day I’m president, we will track down the gang members, drug dealers, child predators and criminal aliens that we find. We will get them. We will throw them the hell out of our country or put them in jail.

michael barbaro

One of the outcomes of Donald Trump’s vow to crack down on undocumented immigration was that he would empower the country’s Border Patrol agents in a way they had never been before —

archived recording (donald trump) The Border Patrol agents — 16,500 Border Patrol agents endorse Donald Trump. They know what’s going on.

michael barbaro

— prompting their union to issue its first-ever endorsement of a presidential candidate.

archived recording (donald trump) And their job is much easier now than when they’re with me, because when they’re with me, they’re going to be working hard.

michael barbaro

But three years later —

archived recording Don’t touch me. Grab him. Grab him. Grab him.

michael barbaro

— Border Patrol agents are the subject of outrage, protest and investigation over their mission and conduct in the Trump era.

archived recording 1 (CHANTING) Hey, hey, ho, ho. Border Patrol has got to go. archived recording 2 This is not something that’s O.K. in America today. We have a right to be here. They have a right to be here. archived recording 3 (CHANTING) — ho, ho. Border Patrol has got to go. Hey, hey —

michael barbaro

Now, many of those same agents who endorsed Trump are telling our colleagues at The Times that morale is at an all-time low. Today: We speak with one of them. It’s Tuesday, September 24.

art del cueto

Hello?

michael barbaro

Hey, Art, it’s Michael Barbaro from The New York Times.

art del cueto

How are you?

michael barbaro

Good. How are you?

art del cueto

I’m good.

michael barbaro

So where am I physically reaching you now?

art del cueto

I’m in Tucson, Arizona.

michael barbaro

And are you at work? Are you at the office?

art del cueto

No, I took a vacation day today. Unfortunately, because of my position with the union, even when I take days off, they’re not really days off.

michael barbaro

Art Del Cueto is a Border Patrol agent in Arizona and vice president of the National Border Patrol Council.

art del cueto

The reason I’m able to talk to you is because under my union hat, I can talk to different media and stuff like that, whereas a regular Border Patrol agent, he’d have to get approval from the agency themselves. They’ll say, you need to speak to the public information officer. When you do that, you will get the complete cookie-cutter response to any questions that you ask.

michael barbaro

So today there’s no cookie-cutter conversation?

art del cueto

No. You’re not going to get the dog-and-pony show with me.

michael barbaro

I’m really curious to hear how the work of being and representing Border Patrol agents has changed in recent years. I feel like you’re uniquely positioned to speak to that. But I want to hear more about how and why you came to do what you do.

art del cueto

I grew up in Arizona. I grew up in a small border town south of Arizona called Douglas, Arizona. And the best way I can describe it is, you know the old ‘80s movies where the stranger comes into town, and before he even hits the center of town, everyone in the town already knows there’s a stranger in town?

michael barbaro

Right.

art del cueto

And that’s pretty much the way Douglas was growing up. Unfortunately, because of its proximity with the border — some people don’t like to talk about it, and sometimes they say what happens in Douglas stays in Douglas — but the reality is there was a huge criminal element in Douglas because of the cartels. And drugs were very, very accessible to a lot of people in the town. Border towns are rough. It’s as rough as what you see in the movies. I think I was in sixth grade the first time I saw heroin. I grew up here. I’ve seen it my entire life. I know how bad it is with the drugs coming into the United States.

michael barbaro

How did your family end up in Douglas and this close to the border? What did your parents do?

art del cueto

My dad was a doctor. My dad was a physician. He worked in the United States, and then he opened up a private practice in Mexico. And my mom was originally from Mexico, and I have a lot of family down there still. I don’t like to get into it, because obviously — because of what I do and how easily my name is out, I don’t want to really get into how much family I have, because I don’t want them to have to face any issues in Mexico themselves.

michael barbaro

You mean the kind of repercussions of the fact that you do what you do?

art del cueto

Yeah. Correct.

michael barbaro

But your parents came here legally?

art del cueto

Yes, sir. Yes, that they did.

michael barbaro

Do you remember how your parents talked about immigration when you were growing up, as people who came to the U.S. legally?

art del cueto

No, I don’t think there was ever really any talk about that. I remember growing up, my dad would always instill in me and my sister to make sure that we respected the laws of this country. He always made sure that we respected the United States and the red, white and blue. We never had any other country’s flag fly at my home.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

art del cueto

My dad, it was always about the United States.

michael barbaro

It sounds like your parents became very patriotic.

art del cueto

Yeah, I mean, my dad would always talk about it. Respect law enforcement. Respect this country. This is the country that’s giving us everything. If the countries that we came from were better, my dad would say, we would still be there. But obviously, we’re here, so you have to have allegiance to the country that has opened their arms to you.

michael barbaro

Is being Mexican part of your identity, in your mind, given that’s where your parents came from?

art del cueto

I think it’s my heritage. I definitely believe it’s heritage. And I don’t — I’m not going to sit here — because I get attacked by the people that are from Mexico that live in the United States, because I do public speaking sometimes. And I get protesters there, and they call me a sellout. They call me a race traitor. And I sit there, and I just look at them, and I say, well, if I’m a race traitor because I’m proud to be an American, and you’re from America but you’re not proud to be here, what does that make you? You know? I mean, I listen to Mexican music. I speak Spanish. I make sure that my kids were bilingual and they’re able to speak Spanish. I’m proud of my Hispanic heritage. My citizenship is American. My race has nothing to do with being an American.

michael barbaro

So how did it happen that you actually became a Border Patrol agent?

art del cueto

Oh, man, I grew up around the Border Patrol my whole life. So I saw them my entire life. And I remember as a kid always loving old westerns —

archived recording (the lone ranger) A fiery horse with the speed of light, a cloud of dust and a hearty Hi-Yo, Silver! The Lone Ranger —

art del cueto

You know, “The Lone Ranger.”

archived recording 1 (the lone ranger) Do you think Clem and Judd killed Hamlet? archived recording 2 (the lone ranger) Yes, I’m practically certain of it.

art del cueto

Just movies where, you know, the good guy’s wearing the white hat. The good guy’s always the guy wearing the badge.

archived recording 1 (the lone ranger) There’s only one way we can make a case stand up against them in court. archived recording 2 (the lone ranger) How? archived recording 3 (the lone ranger) We must catch them with the evidence. I need the cooperation of the law. Hurry. archived recording 4 (the lone ranger) Yes.

art del cueto

So as a kid, you watch Border Patrol agents. And for the longest time, part of that uniform was wearing that cowboy hat. So I always wanted to get into some type of law enforcement.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

art del cueto

I applied for the Border Patrol, and I was contacted within a year. I was given a choice of what stations to go to. I believe at the time they gave me two different choices. I picked the one that made more sense to me, which was still in Arizona.

michael barbaro

And what year was it?

art del cueto

2003.

michael barbaro

And so this would have been under President Bush, George W. Bush.

art del cueto

Correct. Yeah, under President Bush.

michael barbaro

And what was the job like at the time?

art del cueto

I mean, what can I say? When you first start, you really don’t know what the heck you’re doing. And I remember going to the academy. And we do different scenarios where you arrest two individuals. They tell you, hey, make sure you keep them on this side of you and they don’t move over to this side. But nothing’s going to prepare you for when you’re out there in the field by yourself, and you catch a group of 80 —

michael barbaro

Wow.

art del cueto

— which is a little bit bigger than the group of two that I was trained with, right?

michael barbaro

Right.

art del cueto

And then you’re having to entertain a group of 80 and making sure that a group of 80 individuals listen to you, while at the same time, you’re trying to get a hold of transportation on the radio, knowing fully well that they’re more than likely close to an hour away from you. And a lot of times you’re out there on your own. I mean, to this day, you’re checking certain trails, and you start following these footprints, trying to catch the group. And by the time you catch the group, you’re going to encounter, many times, a very large group. That’s the reality. Sometimes it drives me crazy when people think that the agents are evil. I remember catching a large group and yelling at them to sit down because they wouldn’t sit down. Later on, they were saying that they were going to complain because I yelled at them. And I’m thinking, I’m by myself. There’s close to 80 of them. And you’re upset because I yelled at you? Yeah, that just — that doesn’t make any sense to me.

michael barbaro

And the people you would encounter back in the early days of your job, what was the most common reason that they were crossing, would you say?

art del cueto

They would say they were crossing because they wanted to get a job in the United States. It was monetary.

michael barbaro

So what happened once you encountered them?

art del cueto

Well, you would detain them. You would ask them, obviously, different questions. You’d take them to the processing center. You’d run their fingerprints and see if they have any priors within the United States. You would put them in a cell, and you’d wait for the next bus that would take them back to Mexico. Yes.

michael barbaro

And did that change over time?

art del cueto

They came up with different ways to detain people — you know, streamlining. And then they came up with repatriations, where they would send them further into the interior of Mexico. It just kept on changing, but I mean, at some point, when you’re catching the same individual 17, 20 times, something’s not working, right?

michael barbaro

And what would you say was not working?

art del cueto

Just catching them and sending them back over, catching them and sending back over. I mean, there was times when I’d catch the same individual three, four times a week.

michael barbaro

They would just keep returning?

art del cueto

Yes. There’s just too many loopholes in the system, I think, where you come into the United States and you’re asking for asylum, but the immigration judges are swamped, so instead what they do is they say, hey, I’m going to give you a date so I can see and listen to your asylum claim, but because you crossed with a child, well, I can’t detain him for more than 20 days. So I’m just going to let you go and trust that you will show up to your immigration hearing. But to me, that’s just a loophole that they can expose and just not bother showing up. I mean, we see it. And I think that’s a problem.

michael barbaro

It’s the system of catch or release that the Trump administration has complained about a lot and says has left them with no choice but to implement tougher policies that they hope —

art del cueto

Stronger policies.

michael barbaro

— right, will discourage people from coming.

art del cueto

Right.

michael barbaro

So let’s talk about what’s changed with the arrival of President Trump as president and, obviously, your boss. What do you remember the conversation among your fellow Border Patrol agents being like after Trump had been elected? What — was there the sense that things are about to change?

art del cueto

Yeah, I mean, definitely. Right off the bat, agents, they were happy about it. They said, we have somebody that’s of our nation that gets it. And when President Trump first took over office, he single-handedly, just with the rhetoric alone, lowered the numbers of individuals that were crossing into the country illegally. That was a huge change.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

art del cueto

That was huge. It was a big deal.

michael barbaro

Because the message was going out from the president that this is not working.

art del cueto

We’re not going to put up with it anymore. Yeah, we’re not going to put up with it anymore. We can’t just allow everyone to come in. We’re not going to just allow lawlessness on our nation’s borders. And that rhetoric lowered the numbers.

michael barbaro

And what about the policy changes from the Trump administration that include the best-known of them, which is “zero tolerance,” and at the border, the decision to separate families?

art del cueto

I think where some of the issues were that people think there was a separation was we were more strict on who was with their parents and who wasn’t, because a lot of times when we arrest these individuals, they cross with minors. O.K.? And I’ll give you examples. There’s times that I’ve arrested individuals that have a minor with them. And then I asked the minor, hey, what’s his relation to you? If they stutter, or they look nervous, and they don’t tell me the truth, while I’m doing my field investigation, I will put the parent — or the individual that’s an adult — and I will separate them from that minor, and I will ask the minor, in the Spanish language, hey, tell me the truth. Who is this individual?

michael barbaro

So you saw a virtue in separating children from adults because you couldn’t be certain who those adults were?

art del cueto

Correct.

michael barbaro

But we know now that those cases involved the separation of mothers and children, fathers and children, not just unaccompanied minors with non-relatives. Correct?

art del cueto

I don’t know. I’d have to look at the statistics. So I can’t tell you as a certain answer of yeah. I don’t know. I’d have to look at that.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

art del cueto

I don’t — I don’t know. I really don’t have that answer.

michael barbaro

Our Times reporting suggests that that’s not in dispute. It’s become a well-known fact.

art del cueto

Mm-hmm.

michael barbaro

How do you feel about what happened, about those changes in policies? Do you think it was the right decision?

art del cueto

Put it this way. As an American citizen, if you break the law in the United States, and you will have a child with you, you will be separated from that child, because you broke the law. And I mean, that’s what it comes down to. I would hope that as individuals, we care enough about our family member to not commit that crime. That way, we’re not separated from our family members.

michael barbaro

It sounds like you think that given the loopholes, this was the right decision, to separate children.

art del cueto

I didn’t say that it was right to separate children. I said it’s right to show individuals that there’s consequences for committing crimes.

michael barbaro

I mean, I asked that because there have been loopholes in the past, and there have been White Houses and presidents frustrated with these loopholes, but they — but they haven’t gone to the lengths of this administration, especially when it comes to family separation. They haven’t done that.

art del cueto

But I don’t think there’s a lot of the things in the past have worked. That’s where we’re at — the problem that we’re at now.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

archived recording 1 Customs and Border Patrol agents are pushing back against criticism after a government watchdog report showed how detention facilities along the southern border are in turmoil. archived recording 2 There are, and I’m just quoting now from the newspaper, “outbreaks of scabies, shingles and chicken pox.” And, I’m quoting now from the paper, “the stench of the children’s dirty clothing was so strong” that “it spread to the agents’ own clothing — people in town would scrunch their noses when they left work.” archived recording 3 Outrage at the border tonight over the death of a 7-year-old girl. She and her father were picked up by Border Patrol in New Mexico after crossing illegally. She died in their custody. archived recording 4 We continue to face tragedies at the border, particularly with regard to the safety of children. archived recording 5 CBS News has confirmed that a sixth migrant child is known to have died after crossing into the U.S. archived recording (lauren underwood) At this point with kids that have died, 5,000 separated from their families, I feel like — and the evidence is really clear — that this is intentional. It’s intentional. It’s a policy choice being made on purpose by this administration, and it’s cruel and inhumane. archived recording (kevin mcaleenan) That’s an appalling accusation. And our men and women fight hard to protect people in our custody every single day. archived recording 6 The agency spent Monday addressing another crisis after the investigative team at ProPublica revealed the existence of a private Facebook group made up of almost 10,000 former and current Border Patrol agents, which features derogatory and insulting posts, including those of migrants and at least one of Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez.

michael barbaro

Let me ask this question. The Times, my colleagues, we have been reporting on morale among Border Patrol agents. What my colleagues have found is that it’s fallen. It’s gotten lower. I wonder why you think that is.

art del cueto

I don’t think that the morale is where it should be. I think it could be better.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

art del cueto

But I think a lot of it is — it doesn’t fall because of President Trump, by no means.

michael barbaro

Why has it fallen, then?

art del cueto

Because it’s a president who tries to enforce the immigration laws. And every time he’s tried to do something, we have other people that jump in. And they call it a racist. And then you have different congressional leaders that are going to our detention facilities, and they’re calling for the disbanding of some of our law enforcement entities, like ICE, like C.B.P. I mean, that alone is demoralizing.

michael barbaro

It sounds like you watch that very closely.

art del cueto

You have to. I mean, I represent agents that are working at these centers. And when there’s any individual that’s going to enter these centers and walk out of there and actually say lies, I have to watch that, because these agents just can’t talk about it, because, you know, they’re bound because of the agency. I’m the voice that has to come out and say, these people are lying.

michael barbaro

When you say lying — I’m thinking, for example, about a congressman from New York, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who visits a detention center and says she speaks to a woman. And that woman says that she was told to drink water from a toilet. That’s what that woman told Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez. I mean, so I guess the question would be, are those the things that you think of as being statements made by lawmakers that are untrue?

art del cueto

They are. They are untrue. It’s not true.

michael barbaro

Have you been to those detention centers?

art del cueto

Yes, I have.

michael barbaro

And what’s your sense of what’s happening there?

art del cueto

There’s individuals that are being detained in these centers until there can be a determination of what their status is going to be. There is food there. They immediately have medical assistance there. There’s water there. There’s running toilets.

michael barbaro

Are you saying there’s —

art del cueto

There’s additional jugs of water —

michael barbaro

Are you saying there was no —

art del cueto

— that are put there for these individuals so they can drink water.

michael barbaro

You’re saying there’s no way that the congresswoman may have been told the things she was told? Or you’re saying you don’t think that’s representative of the overall experience?

art del cueto

I still don’t know who it is that told her that.

michael barbaro

Are you at all troubled by the — some of the conditions at these detention facilities?

art del cueto

Of course I am. I’m troubled that there is a huge number of individuals that are being detained in these areas that are not designed to hold the vast amount of these people that are coming across, because it creates not just an unsafe environment for the individual that’s being detained there, but it creates an unsafe environment for the agents that work at these facilities.

michael barbaro

So you’re saying it’s bad for everybody?

art del cueto

It is. It’s bad for everybody.

michael barbaro

And what are you hearing from the agents you represent about their experiences? Are they telling you that they are demoralized by all this?

art del cueto

You don’t just walk in there, and they say, hey Art, we’re demoralized. No, I mean, you ask them, how’s it going? How’re you doing it? And they tell you, man, this is crazy, Art. It’s like, nonstop. We haven’t stopped. It’s just insane. We have groups after groups. We’re tired. I mean, you just see it.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm. But it sounds like there’s a lot on their minds.

art del cueto

There’s a lot going on all the time. You hear stories of a lot of agents that continuously tell their kids, don’t tell your friends or don’t tell anyone at school what your mom or dad does for a living. You have to go home, and you have to wear a cover shirt. Or you have to make sure that you take your uniform off because you’re looked at in a bad way. Here you have men and women that joined law enforcement to protect the citizens of this country, but you have way too many individuals that are judging them, calling them Nazis, baby killers, the K.K.K. I mean, you name it. It’s just beyond ridiculous.

michael barbaro

Do you feel that the positive aspects of having a president you feel understands the unique challenges of being a border agent, do those outweigh all the negative attitudes and public perceptions that now come with being a border agent in 2019?

art del cueto

I definitely believe it does, because at the end of the day, we have someone that cares and someone that understands. And I think — like, we started this conversation about my Hispanic heritage. But my allegiance is, my loyalty is the United States of America. Right? I think that’s the beauty of this president, that he’s willing to work with other countries. But at the end of the day, his allegiance is with the United States.

michael barbaro

Art, when you see something happen like that private Facebook group where agents wrote what they wrote and said what they said about undocumented immigrants, these really derogatory things —

art del cueto

Correct.

michael barbaro

— are you disappointed by those kinds of actions? Because they feed into this narrative that —

art del cueto

I am.

michael barbaro

— Americans have about your colleagues.

art del cueto

Yeah, I’m very disappointed. And it’s horrible, because obviously, there was — what’d they say? — 9,500 people that were part of that page.

michael barbaro

Yeah, a lot of people.

art del cueto

Right. But it’s frustrating because I believe that there’s certain members of the media and certain members — that our elected officials have really pushed that narrative based on individuals that commented out of a over 17,000-man agency. I don’t condone any of that. From the National Border Patrol Council, we have pointed out the issues with such a Facebook page for quite some time. I, myself, went to various stations and spoke to the agents about the dangers of posting in social media and such pages.

michael barbaro

So you understood this was happening and that it could be a problem?

art del cueto

Definitely. Yes. I attacked it numerous times.

michael barbaro

But people did it anyway.

art del cueto

Obviously.

michael barbaro

So you don’t — you don’t think it’s representative of the agents that you work with?

art del cueto

It’s not even close to a representation of the individual.

michael barbaro

So I can tell you’re getting out your car and you’re ready to go. There are a lot of Americans listening who may have never heard from somebody who spent so many years as a Border Patrol agent and believed so strongly in what this work means. So what do you want them to understand that you think that they don’t understand?

art del cueto

I think the biggest thing is that they can’t be painting agents with this broad stroke because they hear something in the news media about one agent or two agents doing something wrong. We’re enforcing our nation’s laws. It has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with one particular president. I think at the end of the day, whether you’re sitting on the left of the aisle or the right of the aisle, when you go to bed at night, you lock your front door because you expect to be secure in your home. We need the same thing for our nation’s borders, regardless of what side of the aisle you stand.

michael barbaro

Well, Art, I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

art del cueto

All right, buddy. Take care.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording Did you tell the Ukrainian leader that they would have the aid only if they investigated Joe Biden and his family? archived recording (donald trump) No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t.

michael barbaro

On Monday, President Trump denied that he’d offered military aid to the president of Ukraine on the condition that Ukraine launch an investigation into Joe Biden and his son.

archived recording (donald trump) Did — I did not make a statement that you have to do this, or I’m not going to give you aid. I wouldn’t do that. I wouldn’t do that.

michael barbaro

Trump’s conversation with the Ukrainian president, which is the subject of a whistle-blower’s complaint, occurred as the Trump administration was withholding hundreds of millions of dollars in military funds to Ukraine. As calls for a new investigation into Trump mounted, the president took to Twitter to challenge the patriotism of the whistle-blower, who is a member of the intelligence community. The president wrote, quote, “Who is this so-called whistle-blower who doesn’t know the correct facts? Is he on our country’s side?” And —

archived recording (greta thunberg) This is all wrong. People are suffering. People are dying. Entire ecosystems are collapsing. We are in the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you can talk about is the money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth. How dare you?

michael barbaro

Days after youth protests erupted across the world, a major summit on climate began at the United Nations with an impassioned warning from the teenage activist Greta Thunberg, who had called for the demonstrations.

archived recording (greta thunberg) You are failing us, but the young people are starting to understand your betrayal. The eyes of all future generations are upon you. And if you choose to fail us, I say, we will never forgive you.

michael barbaro

During the U.N. session, President Trump, a climate change skeptic, unexpectedly appeared in the General Assembly hall. Former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg, an outspoken leader on fighting climate change, addressed Trump directly.

archived recording (michael bloomberg) And let me thank President Trump for coming today to the United Nations. Hopefully, our discussions here will be useful for you when you formulate climate policy.

michael barbaro