tokinho Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 772 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-11 00:11:44 #1

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People have said mech and turtling is not viable in TvZ. Meanwhile the few players who play it seem to say that mech is fundamentally stronger than bio and more viable. While this is still debated at the highest level, EJK recently just won vs true (vod) with mech and Happy beat Zanster at Dreamhack with a biomech turtling style. I haven't seen to much on Team Liquid discussing these things. The previous post I wrote was a review of terran play from dreamhack given the 24% winrate TvZ and high win-rate of the Koreans.

Three of the key points I referenced there is-

1. Terrans were losing on these large maps more in the early to mid-game with no wins vs 3 gas nydus

2. No mech games were played and games with high tank counts were almost universally losses

3. Happy demonstrated a biomech style which turtled and beat zerg in the late game.

With those ideas in mind, I feel its important to figure out what can terran try to turn things around in the early mid-game and get to the later stages of the game with mech or turtling compositions. This leads me to invest time into writing a guide on how to mech and turtle with biomech as terran. Mech offers much more map control than in HOTS, in exchange has more risks involved and is harder to execute. Some items that would help mech player maintain map control in TvZ would be, TvZ- Science Vessel Healing, ways to slow down ravagers, decreasing scan costs to 30, making the sensor towers more helpful or cheaper, and adding cyclone utility to help counter viper brood lord, and some general practice of usage of cyclones and banshees from the community.



The organization of the guide will be as follows. First, I'll review changes in LOTV from hots to give mech players a small idea of how to change their play styles to be better suited for LOTV. Then give a few suggestions to last longer into the midgame. Then finish up with some descriptions of builds and things to test in the unit tester and acknowledge EJK and Happy.

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Differences from HOTS to LOTV for mech players-

Mech was tried early in the beta using very similar styles to that of hots. For example-

BeastyQT vs Railgun(for example)-

Ztokdo's look at how to Mech and Biomech in LOTV----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------People have said mech and turtling is not viable in TvZ. Meanwhile the few players who play it seem to say that mech is fundamentally stronger than bio and more viable. While this is still debated at the highest level,with mech and Happy beat Zanster at Dreamhack with a biomech turtling style. I haven't seen to much on Team Liquid discussing these things. The previousI wrote was a review of terran play from dreamhack given the 24% winrate TvZ and high win-rate of the Koreans.Three of the key points I referenced there is-1. Terrans were losing on these large maps more in the early to mid-game with no wins vs 3 gas nydus2. No mech games were played and games with high tank counts were almost universally losses3. Happy demonstrated a biomech style which turtled and beat zerg in the late game.With those ideas in mind, I feel its important to figure out what can terran try to turn things around in the early mid-game and get to the later stages of the game with mech or turtling compositions. This leads me to invest time into writing a guide on how to mech and turtle with biomech as terran. Mech offers much more map control than in HOTS, in exchange has more risks involved and is harder to execute. Some items that would help mech player maintain map control in TvZ would be, TvZ- Science Vessel Healing, ways to slow down ravagers, decreasing scan costs to 30, making the sensor towers more helpful or cheaper, and adding cyclone utility to help counter viper brood lord, and some general practice of usage of cyclones and banshees from the community.The organization of the guide will be as follows. First, I'll review changes in LOTV from hots to give mech players a small idea of how to change their play styles to be better suited for LOTV. Then give a few suggestions to last longer into the midgame. Then finish up with some descriptions of builds and things to test in the unit tester and acknowledge EJK and Happy.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mech was tried early in the beta using very similar styles to that of hots. For example-BeastyQT vs Railgun(for example)-



Notwithstanding, many pros and streamers have said its not as viable, while others disagree. This leads to the outcome of the beta where we are now with our current map pool and changes so far. To summarize-

+ Show Spoiler + post-



Zerg Changes-

More aggressively expanding harder to deny. Creep spread is faster. Zerg's tend to get more queens Larvae counts are lower. Zergling flood points don't really exist anymore. Often skip baneling nests. Ravagers are used to counter tanks and don't require a lair or ravager den to make them. Ultralisks have +8 base armor after all upgrades. Vipers counter vikings.



Terran Changes-

Tanks have increased mobility from tank drops. Unsieged tanks shoot nearest units. BC's gained tactical jump. Reapers have grenades. Vehicle and ship weapsons separated. Ghosts Snipe removed and gain steady targeting. Banshees have speed hyperflight upgrade.



Non-race Related-

Map pool is harder to drop. The maps for the most part are much more open and have larger area in engagements. With the economy, mineral patches start mining out around 8-10 minutes and are completely mined out by 14. Alt-hotkey rebinding was added and was discussed in this post Selectively summarized from thisZerg Changes-More aggressively expanding harder to deny. Creep spread is faster. Zerg's tend to get more queens Larvae counts are lower. Zergling flood points don't really exist anymore. Often skip baneling nests. Ravagers are used to counter tanks and don't require a lair or ravager den to make them. Ultralisks have +8 base armor after all upgrades. Vipers counter vikings.Terran Changes-Tanks have increased mobility from tank drops. Unsieged tanks shoot nearest units. BC's gained tactical jump. Reapers have grenades. Vehicle and ship weapsons separated. Ghosts Snipe removed and gain steady targeting. Banshees have speed hyperflight upgrade.Non-race Related-Map pool is harder to drop. The maps for the most part are much more open and have larger area in engagements. With the economy, mineral patches start mining out around 8-10 minutes and are completely mined out by 14. Alt-hotkey rebinding was added and was discussed in this



There seems to be 2 styles to open to get into mech/biomech that seem to work by utilizing map control and forcing certain units out of zerg. One style with mech is to go hellions and cyclones and slow down creep spread making it hard for the zerg to push across the map, but avoiding a head on fight in favor of kiting. The second style seems to be to go for banshees and keep creep slowed down with them in favor of faster liberators and later tanks. They both favor getting into the late game by maintaining map control. It is as if bio and mech have switched a bit of style where bio used to be about map control and now it seems to be more that of mech.



Units-

Cyclones-





Cyclones have been most underutilized in LOTV. My guess is that in contrast to liberators and banshees, they do not stack in larger numbers very well. They are also gas heavy and if you lose them you basically lose the game because they take a long time to get a return on the investment. The focus when using cyclones should be on making it difficult for the zerg to spread creep while maintaining map control. Microing also it really helps to play with sound and listen closely for the lock on tick, which most players aren't accustomed to listening for. This is more important than ever since creep spreads 2x faster than in HOTS, recedes 2x quicker, and zerg tend to have more queens to help with the larvae drought from getting fewer larvae from injects. Also, another problem is that players who use them might think they can fight mutalisks then lose everything. Given how popular 2 base muta was a couple months back this may also lead to the deterioration of mech. Another large advantage of the cyclone style is that the parasitic bomb does not stack on them and they can lock on under blinding cloud. They also kite against ultras, but lose pretty hard to brood lords. A lot of thoughts about cyclones are on Teamliquid.net. Some posts are-

The Purpose of the cyclone nerf

Cyclones, who needs them?

A Proposal for Cyclone Redesign

Goliath 2.0 replacement proposal

I do believe it doesn't make sense to get high numbers of cyclones and instead push into liberators on the back of the opener.



Liberators-

Liberators have been discussed in detail. The major problem with liberators is similar to the tanks, they are countered very hard by ravagers. The positioning of the ravager was shown in my previous post. The reasoning for liberators being used I actually believe is that the splash damage stacks so much.



Banshees-

The interesting thing is that people haven't experimented too much with the banshee speed upgrade as far as I can tell other than Avilo. I do feel that Avilo would be in a better position to comment on the hyperflight upgrade and its use. Avilo's stream is found here. If you want to see someone practicing this style check him out I do think there is a place for it, particularly against zerg. I think banshees need to be explored much more in LOTV particularly diamond level players, and avoid queens well given in general higher queen counts.

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Surviving Early with biomech-

Similar to mech, the biomech styles are heavily reliant on slowing down the zerg. The builds are focused heavily on map control to position the player to get into the mid and late game. This requires finding overloards, defending nydus play and getting out on the map. It doesn't matter as much whether the zerg scouts you as much as you knowing what the zerg is doing.





Happy's Hellion Banshee Bio-Mech Opener(from dreamhack Happy Vs Zanster Uncasted games)

+ Show Spoiler +

I want to distuingish, this is a build order, not a build. Its meant to give you a rough idea what to do if you don't take too much damage and don't see an allin. This build can also be used as a mech opener with banshees instead of cyclones with the banshee speed upgrade instead of the cyclone range upgrade by getting gas and a factory over more barracks and delaying the 2 ebays by 40 seconds instead getting 2 armories.



14 supply depot 0:18

16 Barrack 0:46

16 refinery 0:43

19 orbital command 1:26

19 reaper 1:26

20 command center 1:40

20 refinery 1:47

21 supply depot 1:57

22 factory 2:09

22 reactor on barracks 2:16

25 orbital 2:52 (swaps barracks and factory at the same time)

25 tech lab on barracks 2:55

25 starport(next to barracks) 2:55

25 2 hellions 3:00

30 supply depot 3:12 (to continue walling on low ground); lifts off barracks @3:22 to get ready for starport to move over)

39 banshee 3:41

39 cloak 3:41

41 starts marine production off barracks to push away overloards

43 bunker to complete wall 3:48

44 supply depot 3:55 (moves out to pressure queens and deny creep)

48 tech lab on barracks 4:06

48 supply depot 4:08

51 3rd command center 4:24 (cuts units after 6 hellions, 1 marine, banshee to get this)

4:30 swaps factory onto tech lab and puts barracks on reactor

53 2nd banshee 4:32 (Pressures when banshee arrives, do best to do damage slow creep and not lose units)

59 Resumes tank/marine production 4:40

61 refinery 4:42 (saturated at main, 11 workers mining at natural)

61 supply depot 4:50

67 2 barracks 5:00

68 second tank 5:18

68 reactor on starport 5:18

75 Orbital on 3rd cc 5:35

75 2 engineering bays 5:35

75 supply depot 5:40

75 4th refinery 5:40

6:00 tech labs on 3rd and 4th barracks, move out to take third

6:20 stim, Combat shield, +1 infantry armor, +1 infantry attack

6:25 3 barracks

6:40 start medivacs (stop making tanks at 4 tanks)

7:20 start pressuring with 2 medivac drop

7:50 5th and 6th gases, 55 scvs main and natural are saturated, 5 at third

8:20 +2 infantry armor +2 infantry attack

stops making medivacs after 4 in response to scouting hive, switches to liberators and pushes for a high liberator count.

8:30 4th cc

9:20 +1 ship weapons attack









Surviving Early with mech-

EJK alone is pioneering a new mech style which hinges on the usage of cyclones. This build relies heavily on having solid cyclone micro and using the cyclones to keep the zerg from pushing across the map. Basically once you have a cyclone you want to be out and about scouting and slowing down creep spread as much as possible.



EJK's Hellion Cyclone mech opener

+ Show Spoiler +

I want to distuingish, this is a build order, not a build. Its meant to give you a rough idea what to do if you don't take too much damage and don't see an allin.



14 supply depot 0:18

16 Barrack 0:46

16 refinery 0:48

19 orbital command 1:34

19 reaper 1:34

20 command center 1:42

20 supply depot 1:54

21 reaper 2:07

24 factory 2:30

25 command center 2:38

25 refinery 2:45

25 reactor on barracks 2:49 3:20 lift off factory to swap @ 3:24

29 factory 3:25

30 2 hellions 3:30

30 tech lab on barracks 3:33 (scouts 12 lings)

37 2 more hellions 3:51

41 orbital on third 3:56

41 swap barracks off tech lab 4:00 (to be ready for second factory to swap onto it. )

48 cyclone 4:13 (move out onto the map when this finishes)

52 third factory 4:18

52 3rd and 4th gases 4:22 (34 workers, 10 at natural, saturated at main. )

52 supply depot 4:23

60 tech lab on barracks 4:38 (swap factory onto its 5:00 and move out to take third)

65 supply depot 4:53

69 2 supply depots 5:09

75 engineering bay 5:18

81 blue flame 5:30 (pressure to deny creep)

87 3 supply depots 5:40

20 command center 1:42

90 2 refineries 5:53 (51 workers; 5 at third saturated at main and natural)

Safety turrets as necessary

105 starport 6:30

2 more factories 7:00

Armory 7:20

4th cc 7:55

+1 mech upgrades 8:10

8:30 start being really aggressive an doing whatever damage you can with cyclones and liberators









He published some replays found here and these are scenarios that I made from them for you to test and prove to yourself whether it is or isn't viable.



EJK's Replays with his mech style from this post.

http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3341/

http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3622/

http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3623/

http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3625/

http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3624/



From The replays-

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Holding a Nydus allin





Pressuring roach ravager





Denying Creep Spread





Midgame battle slowing down lurker pushes





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Some ways to practice the micro in these scenarios with a friend I recommned particularly turning up the sound a bit in the game and listening for the tick sounds that the lock-on makes to make it easier to micro the unit.

+ Show Spoiler +

Nydus Allin-

14 roaches; 3 queens

4 cyclones; 9 hellions; 17 scvs



Roach Ravager open field engagement-

5 ravagers; 20 roaches; 1 attack 1 carapace upgrades; Glial reconstitution

7 hellions; 2 marauders; 8 cyclones; liberator; 1 mech attack upgrade; blue flame; mag field accelerator



Denying Creep Spread-

10 lings; 14 roaches; 2 queens; 1 ranged upgrade; Glial reconstitution

4 cyclones; 13 hellions



Midgame battles vs lurkers-

3 lurkers, 4 hydralisks, 25 roaches 2 ranged upgrades 1 Carapace upgrade Glial reconstitution

10 cyclones 11 hellions, liberator blue flame mag field accelerator 1 mech attack upgrade



Testing vods with a friend





Testing Some scenarios TvZ with hellion cyclone mech openers

Description-

The 4 scenarios are

1. Holding a nydus allin. (note its ok to lose all scvs as long as cyclones live.)

14 roaches, 3 queens against 4 cyclones, 9 hellions, and 17 scv's.



2. Roach Ravager Open Field Engagement

5 ravagers; 20 roaches; 1 attack 1 carapace upgrades; Glial reconstitution

vs

7 hellions; 2 marauders; 8 cyclones; liberator; 1 mech attack upgrade; blue flame; mag field accelerator



3. Denying Creep Spread

10 lings; 14 roaches; 2 queens; 1 ranged upgrade; Glial reconstitution

vs

4 cyclones; 13 hellions



4. Mid game battles vs lurkers.

3 lurkers, 4 hydralisks, 25 roaches 2 ranged upgrades, 1 Carapace upgrade Glial reconstitution

vs

10 cyclones 11 hellions, liberator blue flame mag field accelerator 1 mech attack upgrade





14 roaches; 3 queens4 cyclones; 9 hellions; 17 scvs5 ravagers; 20 roaches; 1 attack 1 carapace upgrades; Glial reconstitution7 hellions; 2 marauders; 8 cyclones; liberator; 1 mech attack upgrade; blue flame; mag field accelerator10 lings; 14 roaches; 2 queens; 1 ranged upgrade; Glial reconstitution4 cyclones; 13 hellions3 lurkers, 4 hydralisks, 25 roaches 2 ranged upgrades 1 Carapace upgrade Glial reconstitution10 cyclones 11 hellions, liberator blue flame mag field accelerator 1 mech attack upgradeTesting vods with a friendTesting Some scenarios TvZ with hellion cyclone mech openersDescription-The 4 scenarios are1. Holding a nydus allin. (note its ok to lose all scvs as long as cyclones live.)14 roaches, 3 queens against 4 cyclones, 9 hellions, and 17 scv's.2. Roach Ravager Open Field Engagement5 ravagers; 20 roaches; 1 attack 1 carapace upgrades; Glial reconstitutionvs7 hellions; 2 marauders; 8 cyclones; liberator; 1 mech attack upgrade; blue flame; mag field accelerator3. Denying Creep Spread10 lings; 14 roaches; 2 queens; 1 ranged upgrade; Glial reconstitutionvs4 cyclones; 13 hellions4. Mid game battles vs lurkers.3 lurkers, 4 hydralisks, 25 roaches 2 ranged upgrades, 1 Carapace upgrade Glial reconstitutionvs10 cyclones 11 hellions, liberator blue flame mag field accelerator 1 mech attack upgrade

Using the the following LOTV unit tester.

Map ID:battlenet://starcraft/map/1/266019



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Last thoughts-

Meching and learning how to take map control with mech will take a lot of games and practice. I believe in the long run in fact mech will also be considered viable and possibly even preferred TvZ since it has a strong potential to hold pushes and even get into the late game. I believe people should practice using the cyclones more and learning to listen to the lock-on tone to help micro the unit.



I particularly want to thank EJK for his vast experience, willingness to share replays, and clarify things about mech and map control. I suggest you go check him out if you don't know who he is. EJK has made extensive playlists about playing terran and would be useful to players looking to learn some things.

Notwithstanding, many pros and streamers have said its not as viable, while others disagree. This leads to the outcome of the beta where we are now with our current map pool and changes so far. To summarize-There seems to be 2 styles to open to get into mech/biomech that seem to work by utilizing map control and forcing certain units out of zerg. One style with mech is to go hellions and cyclones and slow down creep spread making it hard for the zerg to push across the map, but avoiding a head on fight in favor of kiting. The second style seems to be to go for banshees and keep creep slowed down with them in favor of faster liberators and later tanks. They both favor getting into the late game by maintaining map control. It is as if bio and mech have switched a bit of style where bio used to be about map control and now it seems to be more that of mech.Cyclones have been most underutilized in LOTV. My guess is that in contrast to liberators and banshees, they do not stack in larger numbers very well. They are also gas heavy and if you lose them you basically lose the game because they take a long time to get a return on the investment. The focus when using cyclones should be on making it difficult for the zerg to spread creep while maintaining map control. Microing also it really helps to play with sound and listen closely for the lock on tick, which most players aren't accustomed to listening for. This is more important than ever since creep spreads 2x faster than in HOTS, recedes 2x quicker, and zerg tend to have more queens to help with the larvae drought from getting fewer larvae from injects. Also, another problem is that players who use them might think they can fight mutalisks then lose everything. Given how popular 2 base muta was a couple months back this may also lead to the deterioration of mech. Another large advantage of the cyclone style is that the parasitic bomb does not stack on them and they can lock on under blinding cloud. They also kite against ultras, but lose pretty hard to brood lords. A lot of thoughts about cyclones are on Teamliquid.net. Some posts are-I do believe it doesn't make sense to get high numbers of cyclones and instead push into liberators on the back of the opener.Liberators have been discussed in detail. The major problem with liberators is similar to the tanks, they are countered very hard by ravagers. The positioning of the ravager was shown in my previous. The reasoning for liberators being used I actually believe is that the splash damage stacks so much.The interesting thing is that people haven't experimented too much with the banshee speed upgrade as far as I can tell other than Avilo. I do feel that Avilo would be in a better position to comment on the hyperflight upgrade and its use.stream is found. If you want to see someone practicing this style check him outI do think there is a place for it, particularly against zerg. I think banshees need to be explored much more in LOTV particularly diamond level players, and avoid queens well given in general higher queen counts.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Similar to mech, the biomech styles are heavily reliant on slowing down the zerg. The builds are focused heavily on map control to position the player to get into the mid and late game. This requires finding overloards, defending nydus play and getting out on the map. It doesn't matter as much whether the zerg scouts you as much as you knowing what the zerg is doing.Happy's Hellion Banshee Bio-Mech Opener(from dreamhack Happy Vs Zanster Uncasted games)EJK alone is pioneering a new mech style which hinges on the usage of cyclones. This build relies heavily on having solid cyclone micro and using the cyclones to keep the zerg from pushing across the map. Basically once you have a cyclone you want to be out and about scouting and slowing down creep spread as much as possible.EJK's Hellion Cyclone mech openerHe published some replays found here and these are scenarios that I made from them for you to test and prove to yourself whether it is or isn't viable.EJK's Replays with his mech style from thisFrom The replays-----------------------------Holding a Nydus allinPressuring roach ravagerDenying Creep SpreadMidgame battle slowing down lurker pushes---------------------------Some ways to practice the micro in these scenarios with a friendI recommned particularly turning up the sound a bit in the game and listening for the tick sounds that the lock-on makes to make it easier to micro the unit.Using the the following LOTV unit tester.Map ID:battlenet://starcraft/map/1/266019----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Meching and learning how to take map control with mech will take a lot of games and practice. I believe in the long run in fact mech will also be considered viable and possibly even preferred TvZ since it has a strong potential to hold pushes and even get into the late game. I believe people should practice using the cyclones more and learning to listen to the lock-on tone to help micro the unit.I particularly want to thank EJK for his vast experience, willingness to share replays, and clarify things about mech and map control. I suggest you go check him out if you don't know who he is.EJK has made extensiveabout playing terran and would be useful to players looking to learn some things. Beyond One's Grasp