Kyle Lovett offers a rebuttal to Men’s Rights opponents.

On of the biggest hurdles that MRAs often face is contending with the simple and somewhat basic fact that Men’s Rights aren’t about women. When discussions about sex and gender problems stray into men’s issues, it’s almost impulsive for some to exclaim things like “What does this have to do with women?” or “Why do you hate women?” It’s frustrating at times, because the idea that men have their own set of distinct problems is hard for some to accept. At first I wasn’t sure if the word “rights” threw people for a loop, or that somehow they believe any discussion that revolves around the sex of a person by default must mean that women are involved, or maybe it was the simple ignorance that Men’s Rights aren’t about women.

Now, it has become very clear that men have become the “other” sex in our culture. There is a term which is used often in social justice circles called “othering/othered.” “Derailing for Dummies” defines it as such:

“Othering” is a system of social markers that defines “Us” and “them”, neatly and conveniently categorising people into their appropriate places within society. It’s a way of defining a secured and positive position in the world by stigmatising “others”. In other words, it’s the process of dehumanising anyone different to the Chosen Privileged. Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad free

Another way to define the term is that it posits one group as the default or the norm, and all other groups as the “other”. The default group has many advantages over the “others” as it usually is the group which controls the dialogue within society.

We have always been a culture that has been protective of women in many respects: it’s a chivalric notion that has been embedded in old social gender roles where both sides had their own distinct advantages and disadvantages. For women, before the turn of the twentieth century, with that kind of protection came the unfortunate side effect of viewing them as behind the scenes and without a voice in the decisions of the larger social group. After World War I, women were able to start breaking free from a lot of these rigid gender roles, and have increasingly found they are no longer bound by most of these confinements.

The feminist movement played a large part in advancing women away from these gender roles, but as it progressed into the late twentieth century, many of the more vocal/radical groups in the movement took to a path of demonizing men. This has become the accepted social discourse for many decades now. When sex and gender issues are discussed and debated, women and the problems they face are the default topic. This is a privilege that they have taken ownership of in society; men have been “othered.”

Men, however, have not found their way free of society’s expectations of them, especially in the bottom and middle classes of society. This is expressed in phrases like: “Man up!” “Don’t cry.” “Stop being a pussy.” “Provide for your family, or you are a deadbeat.” “Be the protector, place women’s lives ahead of your own.”

These are still beat into us everyday, reinforced by popular culture and by other men who have been slow to adapt to the radical shift in gender expectations. Much of it comes from men who claim they are feminist, but in fact (and some who are perhaps completely unaware of it), are upholding the old notion of chivalry with dogged determination. They are in fact shaming other men into conforming to an old gender role system, which actually no longer exists. This has caused a strange and painful imbalance.

While justifications and rationalizations for accepting men’s suffering so causally are endless; they almost all exhibit this tint of viewing men as the “othered” sex. We can see this most prominently in issues where men harm other men or men who harm themselves. For example, MRAs see the extreme disproportionate number of suicides among men as a big problem. This does not mean that (a) MRAs want more women to commit suicide or (b) that the problem of male suicides is directly or indirectly caused by women. It’s an issue of compassion, one where we see that men’s expected roles in society and their expected internalization of devastating emotions, is a problem that needs immediate attention on an individual and societal level.

While callous and dehumanizing, some feminists (especially feminist men) adhere to the privileged starting point of being the default concern. This view sadly explains the high number of men’s suicide as unimportant because it isn’t an issue where women are the focus. Basically, what used to be known in feminist circles as the “what about teh menz” argument, has in reality become one of “what about the womenz.” In essence, it completely ignores the basic fact that these are human beings that deserve our compassion.

In my last post, which drew the ire of lots of feminists (mostly male feminists), I stated some basic facts which are of grave concern to MRAs. Most of this ire exhibited many of these dehumanizing marginalizations of men based on:

Chivalry or male feminist chivalry gender role shaming.

• “What about the womenz” – The privileged default of the gender discussion ownership

• “Othering dehumanization” – Another type of privileged default of the gender discussion ownership

• Justification of dismissal by “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, or better yet, a statement that posits a “male victim / male perpetrator” crime is acceptable because they cancel each other out. It’s another version of “othering dehumanization”.

• Creating a secondary straw-man causation as the root issue, such as class or race, but willfully pretending that class or race somehow makes the people who suffer to be something other than men.

• Positing men’s suffering as women-blaming or anti-feminism, which in reality is another “what about the womenz” argument.

Here is a person that calls themselves dangerpantz, whose response to my recent post was fairly typical of anti-MRAs and feminists. I first list my statistic, then their response, and then under their comments are the excuses and justifications that they use.

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Over 28,000 men this year alone will commit suicide

“What the fuck does this have to do with Men’s Rights? Did they commit suicide because they didn’t have rights? This is mostly an economic and class issue.”

Othering dehumanization, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, straw-man secondary causation.

About 4,200 men will be killed in a work related accident

“Again, work safety issue. Still not seeing how this relates to Men’s Rights. Human Rights issue, certainly. Also more women in the workforce = less men getting injured. So doesn’t feminism benefit men here more than men’s rights?”

Blind chivalry (willful ignorance that men still adhere to the gender role of filling dangerous jobs, forgetting that women do not), “what about the womenz”, straw-man secondary causation.

Over 14,000 men this year will become the victim of a homicide

“Yes. And the perpetrator will most likely be another man.”

Othering dehumanization, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”.

There are over 8 million unemployed men in the US

“This is an economic and class issue again. You can blame the unemployment numbers on the careless practices of unregulated banks… run by men.”

Straw-man secondary causation, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, and Othering dehumanization (unregulated banks are not the reason for the high unemployment numbers for men).

Men only make up about 41% of college enrollees

“Because men are choosing not to go to college. Mostly because they’re poor. Again… economic and class issue. There are no stumbling blocks in front of men gaining education that aren’t there for women as well.”

Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization, “what about the womenz” (affirmative action for women still exists in higher education where there is none for men).

Over 230,000 men will be sleeping on the streets tonight, with no shelter to go to

“Seriously. Why is this guy harping about income inequality like it’s a men’s issue and not a human rights and class/economic justice issue.”

Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization.

Men are dying about 6 years earlier than women. Black men’s life expectancy is barely 70 years compared to white women at 80.6 years

“Women have always lived longer than men on average. Even when women had no rights and men ran everything. This is genetics. Nothing to do with rights at all.”

Othering dehumanization, “what about the womenz”, straw-man secondary causation (it is not genetics, much of it is based on reinforced gender roles and biased legislation that puts the health of women above that of men).

Over 2,000,000 men will be incarcerated at any given point in the US, overwhelmingly for non-violent offenses

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“Again. This is a legal issue that has nothing to do with men’s rights. His problem is that people are going to jail for committing crimes? So if someone steals your car and sells it to a chop shop (a non violent crime) they shouldn’t go to jail?”

Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization.

About 50,000 men are sitting in a US jail, who fell behind in their child support, most because they couldn’t find work

“Again. Another social justice issue. This is a human rights issue and a legal flaw to jail the unemployed when they can’t make child support. Unless he’s suggesting that men shouldn’t be required to support their child, then this isn’t a men’s rights issue. This is a criminal justice system issue.”

Straw-man secondary causation, Othering dehumanization, “what about the womenz”, chivalric gender role enforcement.

About 180,000 men will be raped and sexually assaulted in prison this year alone

“Yeah. By other men.”

“Victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, Othering dehumanization.

Another anti-MRA commentator named diablojr posted this diatribe concerning my post. This kind of hate is becoming both more common and extreme, and is far more dehumanizing than the above post.

Over 28,000 men this year alone will commit suicide

“Wait, what the fuck does this have to do with feminists? Men kill themselves, we can blame a whole lot of social pressures for this, but it most certainly (unless they’re a Redditor) is not due to the feminazis.”

Othering dehumanization, “victim-perpetrator equivalence blaming”, straw-man secondary causation, women blaming.

For the exact same crimes, men will spend an average of 3.14 years more behind bars than women

“How the fuck do you make an exact equivalency for crimes? This statement might just indicate that men are more likely to commit violent crimes in the extreme, or have the physical capability to carry it out to its fullest form (i.e. a woman committing battery might not result in as much physical harm thus receiving a less severe sentence).”

“What about the womenz”, chivalristic gender role enforcement, Othering dehumanization (and this issue has been confirmed by dozens of studies by the DOJ, DOC, FBI and BLS).

About 180,000 men will be raped and sexually assaulted in prison this year alone

“Again, don’t even see what this has to do with anti-mens rights. Apparently we’re also supposed to sympathize with the MRA’s because they are fucking hurt and they have been dragged through an unfair system(in regard to womynz divorcing men and falsely accusing them of domestic violence)”

“What about the womenz”, chivalric gender role enforcement, Othering dehumanization.

“Oh wow, I’m fucking done. These people actually believe this. That the white man is being victimized by the mean old feminists. Clearly, these MRAs are just calling women whores, bitches, and victim blaming because they’ve been spermjacked and had false rape accusations levied against them.”

This type of dehumanizing dismissal of men’s issues is all to common as of late. It rages against the idea that men could in anyway have problems worth fixing, defending the privilege status of women in gender discussions by debasing men’s worth to the lowest common denominator. It’s extreme chivalristic gender role enforcement at its ugliest and more importantly resorts to the all too common unfounded ad hominem attacks.

“I’m sick of all these pretentious pseudo-logical MRAs who attempt to use numbers because it adds credibility. It doesn’t. Just because you quoted some fucking statistic doesn’t make your argument valid. To understand a situation as complicated as gender dynamics one must think through with introspection and reason. But that’s hard. So fuck that and self-victimize away!”

But these aren’t just numbers, these are human beings. This kind of comment reeks of fear and disgust; it turns the very real problems of men into the all familiar cogs of disposability. It almost echos those phrases: “Man up!” “Don’t cry.” “Stop being a pussy.” “Provide for your family, or you are a deadbeat.” “Be the protector, place women’s lives ahead of your own.”

Rights are not just legal, but are also cultural and social in nature. So while women own the default spot on discussions of gender, many feminist groups and people like these two commenters above, are the ones who are using this privilege to control the tone of public discussion. What the net result has become is massive social spending and governmental focus on women’s problems, and the continued marginalization and demonization of men. Women have become the de facto protectorate by an institution of chivalry, and the benefactors of 100’s of laws and billions of dollars.

I think more and more women are becoming fed up with this type of chivalry as well, finding that the promise of complete liberation to have a full voice in the agency of their own mind and body as well as the full responsibility for their actions, is being robbed by a state and a society that is continuing to perpetuate many of the same old gender roles for men. Yes, it is true, some forms of feminism hurt women too. A few feminists are starting to get this point too, but not enough yet to give men a voice or a seat at the table of social equality.

Sometimes its not all about women; its not all about a feminist cause. Sometimes people help other people out of compassion, out of brotherhood and out of a commitment to equal protection under the law.

Photo credit: Flickr / Lara604