MockHamill Profile Joined March 2010 Sweden 1698 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-30 22:52:48 #1



It is always good to give Blizzard feedback on their design choices so that we can help them decide which kind of maps the community likes/dislikes.





Poll: Frozen Temple



Like (385)

62%



Dislike (147)

24%



Neutral (90)

14%



622 total votes (385)62%(147)24%(90)14%622 total votes Your vote: Frozen Temple (Vote): Like

(Vote): Dislike

(Vote): Neutral







Poll: Ruins of Endion



Dislike (287)

50%



Like (197)

34%



Neutral (88)

15%



572 total votes (287)50%(197)34%(88)15%572 total votes Your vote: Ruins of Endion (Vote): Like

(Vote): Dislike

(Vote): Neutral







Poll: Invader LE



Dislike (397)

71%



Like (121)

22%



Neutral (44)

8%



562 total votes (397)71%(121)22%(44)8%562 total votes Your vote: Invader LE (Vote): Like

(Vote): Dislike

(Vote): Neutral









Poll: Korhal Carnage Knockout LE



Dislike (438)

75%



Like (96)

16%



Neutral (48)

8%



582 total votes (438)75%(96)16%(48)8%582 total votes Your vote: Korhal Carnage Knockout LE (Vote): Like

(Vote): Dislike

(Vote): Neutral





Now that everyone has had a chance to play on the new season 2 maps please cast your vote if you like the map or not.It is always good to give Blizzard feedback on their design choices so that we can help them decide which kind of maps the community likes/dislikes.

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-30 16:16:50 #2 which kind of maps the community likes/dislikes.

It seems like the ones that turn LotV into HotS by counteracting the fast pace/low economy with mega turtle features and tons of easy bases. It seems like the ones that turn LotV into HotS by counteracting the fast pace/low economy with mega turtle features and tons of easy bases.

MockHamill Profile Joined March 2010 Sweden 1698 Posts #3 On March 31 2016 01:16 Big J wrote:

Show nested quote +

which kind of maps the community likes/dislikes.

It seems like the ones that turn LotV into HotS by counteracting the fast pace/low economy with mega turtle features and tons of easy bases. It seems like the ones that turn LotV into HotS by counteracting the fast pace/low economy with mega turtle features and tons of easy bases.



Well I am not surprised. Most of the people I talk to on Bnet seems to prefer the 12 worker start of LotV but would like the rest of economy to work more like HotS. Well I am not surprised. Most of the people I talk to on Bnet seems to prefer the 12 worker start of LotV but would like the rest of economy to work more like HotS.

Mizenhauer Profile Blog Joined February 2015 United States 1057 Posts #4 Blizzard seems to have developed a repulsion towards the concept of a "standard map", which is something I fail to understand. To me, games and maps which are "standard" lead towards an increase in the rate by which the superior player wins. Maps that are gimmicky often yield the opposite result.

A brief aside: In my opinion, an opinion which was not shared by many, the end of HotS was the greatest period in all of Starcraft 2. Most people viewed the fact that maps like Overgrowth had been around for so long, or the fact that strategies had been optimized as boring. For me, however, this simply meant that players were given more opportunities to separate themselves from one another. If everyone is doing the same thing, then the best player will do those things better and win more, was my thinking.

LotV has certainly shaken things up quite a bit, creating a new, dynamic and yet to be solved metagame. This effect, however, is neutered by the fact that the maps being made produce strategies tailored to the map rather than the individual strengths and skills of the players.

I love what Proleague is doing. I think that maps like KSS and Overgrowth particularly will grant opportunities for players to showcase a strategic depth we have yet to see in LotV. The success of this season could very well demonstrate to Blizzard what is in my opinion, a far better way to approach map design. As someone who wakes up at 5 a.m. to watch Proleague I am much more excited to see Overgrowth again instead of the new maps I am forced to veto on the ladder. ┗|∵|┓

DuckloadBlackra Profile Joined July 2011 225 Posts #5 I understand why for Invader and Korhal, but why does Endion have more dislikes than likes? I actually enjoy Endion the most followed by Frozen Temple. The other two are bad.

BaronVonOwn Profile Joined April 2011 299 Posts #6 On March 31 2016 01:38 MockHamill wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 31 2016 01:16 Big J wrote:

which kind of maps the community likes/dislikes.

It seems like the ones that turn LotV into HotS by counteracting the fast pace/low economy with mega turtle features and tons of easy bases. It seems like the ones that turn LotV into HotS by counteracting the fast pace/low economy with mega turtle features and tons of easy bases.



Well I am not surprised. Most of the people I talk to on Bnet seems to prefer the 12 worker start of LotV but would like the rest of economy to work more like HotS. Well I am not surprised. Most of the people I talk to on Bnet seems to prefer the 12 worker start of LotV but would like the rest of economy to work more like HotS.

Of course, the mineral change was not well-received in the beta but they plowed ahead anyway. In true Blizzard fashion I'm sure they'll wait another year or two before making the necessary and obvious changes but by then who's going to care anymore? Of course, the mineral change was not well-received in the beta but they plowed ahead anyway. In true Blizzard fashion I'm sure they'll wait another year or two before making the necessary and obvious changes but by then who's going to care anymore?

Xenotolerance Profile Joined November 2012 United States 464 Posts #7 On March 31 2016 02:32 mizenhauee wrote:

LotV has certainly shaken things up quite a bit, creating a new, dynamic and yet to be solved metagame. This effect, however, is neutered by the fact that the maps being made produce strategies tailored to the map rather than the individual strengths and skills of the players.

I love what Proleague is doing. I think that maps like KSS and Overgrowth particularly will grant opportunities for players to showcase a strategic depth we have yet to see in LotV. The success of this season could very well demonstrate to Blizzard what is in my opinion, a far better way to approach map design. As someone who wakes up at 5 a.m. to watch Proleague I am much more excited to see Overgrowth again instead of the new maps I am forced to veto on the ladder.



I like what you're saying here quite a bit, especially about proleague. I just want to point out, nitpicker that I am, that it's not 'the maps being made,' it's 'the maps being used.'



It's important to bear this in mind, that Blizzard chose to use these maps, instead of choosing to use any number of excellent alternatives.



unrelated I want to give a shout to Avex and Sidian - Invader and Korhal Carnage are getting unjustly shat on by the community at large, and I just want to say, you are legit. I hope the rage isn't getting to you. I like what you're saying here quite a bit, especially about proleague. I just want to point out, nitpicker that I am, that it's not 'the maps being made,' it's 'the maps being used.'It's important to bear this in mind, that Blizzard chose to use these maps, instead of choosing to use any number of excellent alternatives.unrelated I want to give a shout to Avex and Sidian - Invader and Korhal Carnage are getting unjustly shat on by the community at large, and I just want to say, you are legit. I hope the rage isn't getting to you. www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance

Mistakes Profile Joined February 2011 United States 1097 Posts #8 All the new maps are good so far. People just don't like change. They want to play their one safe build on every map. Think about the game. Utilize the map to your benefit. StarCraft | www.psistorm.com | www.twitter.com/MistakesSC | www.twitch.tv/MistakesSC | Seattle

Musicus Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 23387 Posts #9 On March 31 2016 03:10 Mistakes wrote:

All the new maps are good so far. People just don't like change. They want to play their one safe build on every map. Think about the game. Utilize the map to your benefit.



A good map allows all kinds of playstyles, those specific maps force a certain playstyle upon you, sadly mostly all-ins. A good map allows all kinds of playstyles, those specific maps force a certain playstyle upon you, sadly mostly all-ins. Maru and Serral are probably top 5.

imre Profile Blog Joined November 2011 France 9125 Posts #10 On March 31 2016 03:10 Mistakes wrote:

All the new maps are good so far. People just don't like change. They want to play their one safe build on every map. Think about the game. Utilize the map to your benefit.



let's triple rax reaper every game on some maps it's fun yeah

let's triple rax reaper every game on some maps it's fun yeah Zest fanboy.

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19832 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-30 19:10:54 #11 On March 31 2016 03:14 Musicus wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 31 2016 03:10 Mistakes wrote:

All the new maps are good so far. People just don't like change. They want to play their one safe build on every map. Think about the game. Utilize the map to your benefit.



A good map allows all kinds of playstyles, those specific maps force a certain playstyle upon you, sadly mostly all-ins. A good map allows all kinds of playstyles, those specific maps force a certain playstyle upon you, sadly mostly all-ins.



That's exactly it. "Standard" maps are just maps that have the largest variety of play because they don't force you to play in any particular way



There would be less complaints if people didn't have to play maps for 6-9 months no matter how good or bad they were. People like wonky maps, but they don't like half of the pool being wonky for the forseeable future. That's exactly it. "Standard" maps are just maps that have the largest variety of play because they don't force you to play in any particular wayThere would be less complaints if people didn't have to play maps for 6-9 months no matter how good or bad they were. People like wonky maps, but they don't like half of the pool being wonky for the forseeable future. "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

Poly_Optimize Profile Joined March 2016 Canada 142 Posts #12 Could you post the map overview (image) of the new maps?

Gwavajuice Profile Joined June 2014 France 1810 Posts #13 I don't take people saying "it's only favoring all-in play" after 1 day of play very serioulsy tbh, for in a couple of weeks map specific all-in build will most likely be figured out and countered.



As usual, let's wait to see the best pros play on it before even remotely imagining that we fully understand the new maps.





Such an early pool can only bring the usual clueless circlejerk discussions we've heard everytime new maps were introduced;



Dear INno and all the former STX boys.

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts #14 I don't think most people enjoy the challenge of playing on maps that make much of the knowledge they've accumulated irrelevant. There have been some weird map features that players have learned how to play and thus expanded the definition of a "standard" map, like backdoor expansions. If players try to learn new ways to play then more and more map features can be a part of the game. But as long as players play every map the same way, none of this stuff will get figured out. Mapmakers make these maps, Blizzard has the balls to put them on ladder, and the only way we all come out ahead is if the players put in the work to figure out how to play on them. The defeatist attitudes this early in the season are disappointing. You've got three months to work on strats. Trust me once you start getting some wins with a strategy you made yourself for a particular map, it'll feel great and you'll be thankful for the opportunity. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

Universum Profile Joined January 2011 Canada 192 Posts #15 On March 31 2016 03:09 Xenotolerance wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 31 2016 02:32 mizenhauee wrote:

LotV has certainly shaken things up quite a bit, creating a new, dynamic and yet to be solved metagame. This effect, however, is neutered by the fact that the maps being made produce strategies tailored to the map rather than the individual strengths and skills of the players.

I love what Proleague is doing. I think that maps like KSS and Overgrowth particularly will grant opportunities for players to showcase a strategic depth we have yet to see in LotV. The success of this season could very well demonstrate to Blizzard what is in my opinion, a far better way to approach map design. As someone who wakes up at 5 a.m. to watch Proleague I am much more excited to see Overgrowth again instead of the new maps I am forced to veto on the ladder.



I like what you're saying here quite a bit, especially about proleague. I just want to point out, nitpicker that I am, that it's not 'the maps being made,' it's 'the maps being used.'



It's important to bear this in mind, that Blizzard chose to use these maps, instead of choosing to use any number of excellent alternatives.



unrelated I want to give a shout to Avex and Sidian - Invader and Korhal Carnage are getting unjustly shat on by the community at large, and I just want to say, you are legit. I hope the rage isn't getting to you. I like what you're saying here quite a bit, especially about proleague. I just want to point out, nitpicker that I am, that it's not 'the maps being made,' it's 'the maps being used.'It's important to bear this in mind, that Blizzard chose to use these maps, instead of choosing to use any number of excellent alternatives.unrelated I want to give a shout to Avex and Sidian - Invader and Korhal Carnage are getting unjustly shat on by the community at large, and I just want to say, you are legit. I hope the rage isn't getting to you.





I agree on that. Especially, I have to give a shoutout to Avex. You're good at what you're doing and honestly, that isn't meant as an insult by any means, in my opinion they haven't selected your best work. I really enjoy playing on Black Monastery, Arcane Sanctuary and Neo Temple by the way. Also, I believe Invader might have played out differently on cross spawns, but I'm not too sure. Anyways, Keep up the good work. I agree on that. Especially, I have to give a shoutout to Avex. You're good at what you're doing and honestly, that isn't meant as an insult by any means, in my opinion they haven't selected your best work. I really enjoy playing on Black Monastery, Arcane Sanctuary and Neo Temple by the way. Also, I believe Invader might have played out differently on cross spawns, but I'm not too sure. Anyways, Keep up the good work. You often learn more from losing than winning. Don't rage, it's a game!

PinoKotsBeer Profile Joined February 2014 Netherlands 1377 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-30 19:18:32 #16 Units getting stuck at edges, pathing of certain units + gigantic maps, great combination..... No idea how protoss is going to take their third or fourth on maps. Cant wait for the tournaments.... http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer

Alluton Profile Joined February 2015 Finland 113 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-30 19:16:32 #17 I don' know why Blizzard wants maps to shit on protoss when protoss is already underperforming. Most of these maps force protoss into 1base or 2 base build. It is not hard to stop those if you know they are coming. Protoss relies on the ability to pull wide variety of builds. If macro play isn't possible opponent will just play extra safe. Also PvZ on KCK is a joke. On some spawns it takes 3 pylons and 2 gates to wall your natural and you still have 2 rocks to worry about. Wall everything and you are doing a 7 gate.



Don't know if these are community maps of Blizzard but they lack a lot of basic map design. For example the rock places on Invader are missplaced and you can wall below opponent main ramp. And they aren't missplaced once but 4 times. Also walling is on KCK depending on your spawn since mapmaker failed to make the map symmetrical.

vult Profile Blog Joined February 2012 United States 9278 Posts #18 Frozen Temple is a nightmare for TvP, so many potential cheeses are possible -- hard-to-find close proxies, massive blink cliff, massive main/natural bases, etc. "I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically." -iNcontroL, impersonating TLO flirting with Apollo, ASUS ROG 2012. RIP Geoff. || Pats and Jags

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #19 On March 31 2016 04:13 Alluton wrote:

I don' know why Blizzard wants maps to shit on protoss when protoss is already underperforming. Most of these maps force protoss into 1base or 2 base build. It is not hard to stop those if you know they are coming. Protoss relies on the ability to pull wide variety of builds. If macro play isn't possible opponent will just play extra safe. Also PvZ on KCK is a joke. On some spawns it takes 3 pylons and 2 gates to wall your natural and you still have 2 rocks to worry about. Wall everything and you are doing a 7 gate.



Don't know if these are community maps of Blizzard but they lack a lot of basic map design. For example the rock places on Invader are missplaced and you can wall below opponent main ramp. And they aren't missplaced once but 4 times. Also walling is on KCK depending on your spawn since mapmaker failed to make the map symmetrical.



The whole point of having Pylons that are more powerful than BCs is that Protoss doesn't have to wall everything. The whole point of having Pylons that are more powerful than BCs is that Protoss doesn't have to wall everything.

Sogetsu Profile Joined July 2011 499 Posts #20 On March 31 2016 02:32 mizenhauee wrote:

Blizzard seems to have developed a repulsion towards the concept of a "standard map", which is something I fail to understand. To me, games and maps which are "standard" lead towards an increase in the rate by which the superior player wins. Maps that are gimmicky often yield the opposite result.

A brief aside: In my opinion, an opinion which was not shared by many, the end of HotS was the greatest period in all of Starcraft 2. Most people viewed the fact that maps like Overgrowth had been around for so long, or the fact that strategies had been optimized as boring. For me, however, this simply meant that players were given more opportunities to separate themselves from one another. If everyone is doing the same thing, then the best player will do those things better and win more, was my thinking.

LotV has certainly shaken things up quite a bit, creating a new, dynamic and yet to be solved metagame. This effect, however, is neutered by the fact that the maps being made produce strategies tailored to the map rather than the individual strengths and skills of the players.

I love what Proleague is doing. I think that maps like KSS and Overgrowth particularly will grant opportunities for players to showcase a strategic depth we have yet to see in LotV. The success of this season could very well demonstrate to Blizzard what is in my opinion, a far better way to approach map design. As someone who wakes up at 5 a.m. to watch Proleague I am much more excited to see Overgrowth again instead of the new maps I am forced to veto on the ladder.



I kind of agree with you about "skill" but it is mechanical skill only. This is a RTS, and strategy is as important as skill, so with the "weird" maps you get a wider range of players, from those who are genius at their strategy based on maps and terrain, as well as those who are mechanically gods.



The variation is needed, and also the different options on strategy based on map are awesome to see a lot of time. That is the reason we all know Innovation and Maru were some of the best players in the world in HotS, or why we all know soO and sOs are basically master minds of strategy with their builds.

Also between races to make it easier and obvious, you got Taeja and Inno for instance, one being incredible good at mixing units and strategy gameplay overall, as the other was one of the best mechanical players but not really impressive in terms of strategy or new stuff.



Remember, this is a game of Strategy AND Skill, if you forget any of those things the game is dead and boring, so it doesn't lead to something like "the less skilled player can win", it leds to "the less skilled player can win with a better strategy otuplaying the more skilled one" (or the opposite, the more skilled player won over the more strategic player). I kind of agree with you about "skill" but it is mechanical skill only. This is a RTS, and strategy is as important as skill, so with the "weird" maps you get a wider range of players, from those who are genius at their strategy based on maps and terrain, as well as those who are mechanically gods.The variation is needed, and also the different options on strategy based on map are awesome to see a lot of time. That is the reason we all know Innovation and Maru were some of the best players in the world in HotS, or why we all know soO and sOs are basically master minds of strategy with their builds.Also between races to make it easier and obvious, you got Taeja and Inno for instance, one being incredible good at mixing units and strategy gameplay overall, as the other was one of the best mechanical players but not really impressive in terms of strategy or new stuff.Remember, this is a game of Strategy AND Skill, if you forget any of those things the game is dead and boring, so it doesn't lead to something like "the less skilled player can win", it leds to "the less skilled player can win with a better strategy otuplaying the more skilled one" (or the opposite, the more skilled player won over the more strategic player). Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png

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