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DonatorSr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 252Study the past, if you would divine the future. Closed January 24, 2013, 02:14:44 AM

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atomium

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DonatorSr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 252Study the past, if you would divine the future. Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 12:16:36 AM #3 Quote from: MonsterZero on January 25, 2013, 12:13:24 AM As an experienced coder in a language you did not specify I'd like to ask why you, as a business person would pick specific languages to write software in.



good question, for this project I've had different opinions as to which language would be the best, so I included all 3. Some say it can be done with PHP, but it will be built better with Ruby, then some say Python would be better than Ruby and vice versa. So just decided to include all 3 and I'll decide with my partner and see which is best. Someone who knows all 3 would be great but I'm sure that will be difficult to find. good question, for this project I've had different opinions as to which language would be the best, so I included all 3. Some say it can be done with PHP, but it will be built better with Ruby, then some say Python would be better than Ruby and vice versa. So just decided to include all 3 and I'll decide with my partner and see which is best. Someone who knows all 3 would be great but I'm sure that will be difficult to find.

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Hero MemberActivity: 602Merit: 500 Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 04:26:27 AM #8 Choice of language is one thing, but prior to that should be a choice and decision on the architecture of your system. Even before that, there should be an evaluation and decision on the target platform to run, and even before that there should be a evaluation, plan and decision on the way you want to handle the operations part of your business, how you want to deal with software quality and security.



To illustrate that a bit: Many heavyweight banking or shopping systems are written in a statically typed language and deployed on an Application server cluster. Thus, when a company has decided upon this basic direction, typically they draw on the pool of developers and technicians from one of the relevant ecosystems (Java, Windows / .Net, C/C++, ...). Each of these come with a specific mindset and set of best practices; also, the available pool of skilled people might be different.



Also, even medium sized systems benefit from a separation between backend and frontend (presentation layer). Still the more so, when security is an issue. In that case, the backend could be based on a more heavyweight technology with well established security and quality practices, while the front-end could use a language (Ruby, Groovy, Python, JavaScript, VB) and framework to support rapid development and quick adaptation to changed needs.



There is a catch though. It is rather rare for developers to be equally proficient in both of these two disciplines. Some people are able to create you a slick website in just 2 weeks, and quickly adapt it to your ideas, but fail miserably when it comes to build maintainable code, which is easy to operate on the long run and can be scaled up as the business grows. Other people are good in the latter mentioned disciplines, but will require 4 times as long for the initial launch and aren't very responsive when it comes to demands for quick change. And finally, you'll never be able to get low cost, quick time-to-market, and high quality/security/durability at the same time; if you do your job well, you might be able to get two of these goals.



So, in the end, the success depends very much on how you, as a founder set the priorities, lead your people and ensure the project remains on track. There is no one-size-fits-all method to achieve that. You might proceed methodically, or just decide to buy best-of-breed and only do minimal in-house development, or go for the mad 80+ hours a week sprint with people excited about the goal. These decisions should be first, followed by a system plan and architecture, and only as a last step comes the decision for a specific technology (framework, platform, language(s)).





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DonatorSr. MemberActivity: 406Merit: 252Study the past, if you would divine the future. Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 04:41:17 AM #9 Quote from: Ichthyo on January 25, 2013, 04:26:27 AM Choice of language is one thing, but prior to that should be a choice and decision on the architecture of your system. Even before that, there should be an evaluation and decision on the target platform to run, and even before that there should be a evaluation, plan and decision on the way you want to handle the operations part of your business, how you want to deal with software quality and security.



To illustrate that a bit: Many heavyweight banking or shopping systems are written in a statically typed language and deployed on an Application server cluster. Thus, when a company has decided upon this basic direction, typically they draw on the pool of developers and technicians from one of the relevant ecosystems (Java, Windows / .Net, C/C++, ...). Each of these come with a specific mindset and set of best practices; also, the available pool of skilled people might be different.



Also, even medium sized systems benefit from a separation between backend and frontend (presentation layer). Still the more so, when security is an issue. In that case, the backend could be based on a more heavyweight technology with well established security and quality practices, while the front-end could use a language (Ruby, Groovy, Python, JavaScript, VB) and framework to support rapid development and quick adaptation to changed needs.



There is a catch though. It is rather rare for developers to be equally proficient in both of these two disciplines. Some people are able to create you a slick website in just 2 weeks, and quickly adapt it to your ideas, but fail miserably when it comes to build maintainable code, which is easy to operate on the long run and can be scaled up as the business grows. Other people are good in the latter mentioned disciplines, but will require 4 times as long for the initial launch and aren't very responsive when it comes to demands for quick change. And finally, you'll never be able to get low cost, quick time-to-market, and high quality/security/durability at the same time; if you do your job well, you might be able to get two of these goals.



So, in the end, the success depends very much on how you, as a founder set the priorities, lead your people and ensure the project remains on track. There is no one-size-fits-all method to achieve that. You might proceed methodically, or just decide to buy best-of-breed and only do minimal in-house development, or go for the mad 80+ hours a week sprint with people excited about the goal. These decisions should be first, followed by a system plan and architecture, and only as a last step comes the decision for a specific technology (framework, platform, language(s)).







Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I was not aware of this until you explained it very clearly, I will definitely in mind all of the tips you gave here. In my case, security will be one of the main concerns so I should look for someone that is proficient in it and that can build a great foundation for the system to be able to grow and expand without have major security flaws. Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I was not aware of this until you explained it very clearly, I will definitely in mind all of the tips you gave here. In my case, security will be one of the main concerns so I should look for someone that is proficient in it and that can build a great foundation for the system to be able to grow and expand without have major security flaws.

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LegendaryActivity: 1372Merit: 1001 Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 05:29:28 AM #11 Quote from: glassuser on January 25, 2013, 04:41:17 AM Quote from: Ichthyo on January 25, 2013, 04:26:27 AM Choice of language is one thing, but prior to that should be a choice and decision on the architecture of your system. Even before that, there should be an evaluation and decision on the target platform to run, and even before that there should be a evaluation, plan and decision on the way you want to handle the operations part of your business, how you want to deal with software quality and security.



To illustrate that a bit: Many heavyweight banking or shopping systems are written in a statically typed language and deployed on an Application server cluster. Thus, when a company has decided upon this basic direction, typically they draw on the pool of developers and technicians from one of the relevant ecosystems (Java, Windows / .Net, C/C++, ...). Each of these come with a specific mindset and set of best practices; also, the available pool of skilled people might be different.



Also, even medium sized systems benefit from a separation between backend and frontend (presentation layer). Still the more so, when security is an issue. In that case, the backend could be based on a more heavyweight technology with well established security and quality practices, while the front-end could use a language (Ruby, Groovy, Python, JavaScript, VB) and framework to support rapid development and quick adaptation to changed needs.



There is a catch though. It is rather rare for developers to be equally proficient in both of these two disciplines. Some people are able to create you a slick website in just 2 weeks, and quickly adapt it to your ideas, but fail miserably when it comes to build maintainable code, which is easy to operate on the long run and can be scaled up as the business grows. Other people are good in the latter mentioned disciplines, but will require 4 times as long for the initial launch and aren't very responsive when it comes to demands for quick change. And finally, you'll never be able to get low cost, quick time-to-market, and high quality/security/durability at the same time; if you do your job well, you might be able to get two of these goals.



So, in the end, the success depends very much on how you, as a founder set the priorities, lead your people and ensure the project remains on track. There is no one-size-fits-all method to achieve that. You might proceed methodically, or just decide to buy best-of-breed and only do minimal in-house development, or go for the mad 80+ hours a week sprint with people excited about the goal. These decisions should be first, followed by a system plan and architecture, and only as a last step comes the decision for a specific technology (framework, platform, language(s)).







Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I was not aware of this until you explained it very clearly, I will definitely in mind all of the tips you gave here. In my case, security will be one of the main concerns so I should look for someone that is proficient in it and that can build a great foundation for the system to be able to grow and expand without have major security flaws.

Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I was not aware of this until you explained it very clearly, I will definitely in mind all of the tips you gave here. In my case, security will be one of the main concerns so I should look for someone that is proficient in it and that can build a great foundation for the system to be able to grow and expand without have major security flaws. Security needs to be the #1 concern. You've been here for a few months, you've had a taste of how Bitcoin can go wrong with the coins themselves are handled incorrectly. And if you're selling software to other companies, you'd better be dang sure that they can't blame any loss of coins on you, or you'll be bankrupt with a stack of lawsuits in a hurry.

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NewbieActivity: 36Merit: 0 Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 06:25:47 AM #13 I disagree, security should not be your #1 concern when choosing a language. Almost all your mainstream languages can be security, Ruby on Rails, Java, ASP.NET, PHP. I believe your main concerns when choosing a language are:



There are a couple of questions you need to ask yourself:



Business Perspective

Will it be hard to find more developers to work on it? (If you look at job search sites you will notice that there aren't many Ruby on Rails jobs, however there are plenty of ASP.NET jobs.



How important is cost in relation to maintainability/testability? (I know from real world experience that ASP.NET Webforms is a lot easier for developers to understand and development time is faster (therefore you can get a junior developer later down the track), on the other hand ASP.NET MVC allows for great maintainability and testability, however this does require people who are more experienced and know a thing or two about architecture (usually these developers cost more).



Software Cost? Do you have money to pay for additional software. ASP.NET has a lot of tools out there you can pay for, SQL Server, Windows Server, Telerik Controls etc.



Hardware Cost? What type of infrastructure will you need, how scalable should your site be?



How easy is it to secure? Even though most languages have the ability to be secure, other are easier to secure. Take for example ASP.NET, with that most of the time you will use an ORM which usually abstracts the security / database aspect away from the coding.



My opinion

My personal preference when it comes to choosing a web development language is ASP.NET MVC for the follow reasons:



It is really testable/maintainable - TFD/TDD (Test Driven Development)

It demands a good architecture - Once again TDD is a contributor to this as it makes you think about how to architecture the software

Scalable - Like many other languages ASP.NET is very scalable

Developers - There are a lot of ASP.NET developers out there (a lot of competition for hiring them too), however in my personal opinion, I find that ASP.NET developers have higher standards than your average PHP developer.

Familiarity - I'm an 8am - 5 pm ASP.NET Webforms developer

Security - It does a good job of giving you the necessary tools to make the application secure (a lot of security holes with php sites come from simple human error of forgetting to escape strings).



Could you PM me your skype so we can discuss this at some stage?

paybitcoin



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MemberActivity: 85Merit: 101h79nc Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 07:57:09 AM #14 Quote from: gweedo on January 25, 2013, 06:37:03 AM Quote from: schalk on January 25, 2013, 06:25:47 AM My opinion

My personal preference when it comes to choosing a web development language is ASP.NET MVC for the follow reasons:



It is really testable/maintainable - TFD/TDD (Test Driven Development)

It demands a good architecture - Once again TDD is a contributor to this as it makes you think about how to architecture the software

Scalable - Like many other languages ASP.NET is very scalable

Developers - There are a lot of ASP.NET developers out there (a lot of competition for hiring them too), however in my personal opinion, I find that ASP.NET developers have higher standards than your average PHP developer.

Familiarity - I'm an 8am - 5 pm ASP.NET Webforms developer

Security - It does a good job of giving you the necessary tools to make the application secure (a lot of security holes with php sites come from simple human error of forgetting to escape strings).



Could you PM me your skype so we can discuss this at some stage?



ASP.NET is still used? WOW, I think glassuser with choose either python or php cause those are the most logical choices, there are a lot of bitcoin projects in both so the developers are there. Both can be secured quite easily if the developer knows what they are doing. Most host can support php right out of the gate. Honestly if we can all sit here all day and argue but at the end of the day php and python are just the best for web right now, today. From scalability to security.

ASP.NET is still used? WOW, I think glassuser with choose either python or php cause those are the most logical choices, there are a lot of bitcoin projects in both so the developers are there. Both can be secured quite easily if the developer knows what they are doing. Most host can support php right out of the gate. Honestly if we can all sit here all day and argue but at the end of the day php and python are just the best for web right now, today. From scalability to security.

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)



Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...



Python all the way!!!



Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...Python all the way!!!Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: Anyone looking for work? (Lol, none of them are .NET devs)

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NewbieActivity: 36Merit: 0 Re: Looking for Partner for a New Bitcoin Business - Developer Wanted January 25, 2013, 08:17:36 AM

Last edit: January 25, 2013, 08:33:01 AM by schalk #15 Quote from: paybitcoin on January 25, 2013, 07:57:09 AM Quote from: gweedo on January 25, 2013, 06:37:03 AM Quote from: schalk on January 25, 2013, 06:25:47 AM My opinion

My personal preference when it comes to choosing a web development language is ASP.NET MVC for the follow reasons:



It is really testable/maintainable - TFD/TDD (Test Driven Development)

It demands a good architecture - Once again TDD is a contributor to this as it makes you think about how to architecture the software

Scalable - Like many other languages ASP.NET is very scalable

Developers - There are a lot of ASP.NET developers out there (a lot of competition for hiring them too), however in my personal opinion, I find that ASP.NET developers have higher standards than your average PHP developer.

Familiarity - I'm an 8am - 5 pm ASP.NET Webforms developer

Security - It does a good job of giving you the necessary tools to make the application secure (a lot of security holes with php sites come from simple human error of forgetting to escape strings).



Could you PM me your skype so we can discuss this at some stage?



ASP.NET is still used? WOW, I think glassuser with choose either python or php cause those are the most logical choices, there are a lot of bitcoin projects in both so the developers are there. Both can be secured quite easily if the developer knows what they are doing. Most host can support php right out of the gate. Honestly if we can all sit here all day and argue but at the end of the day php and python are just the best for web right now, today. From scalability to security.

ASP.NET is still used? WOW, I think glassuser with choose either python or php cause those are the most logical choices, there are a lot of bitcoin projects in both so the developers are there. Both can be secured quite easily if the developer knows what they are doing. Most host can support php right out of the gate. Honestly if we can all sit here all day and argue but at the end of the day php and python are just the best for web right now, today. From scalability to security.

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)



Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...



Python all the way!!!



Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic:

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...Python all the way!!!Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: Anyone looking for work? (Lol, none of them are .NET devs)

How is Azure insecure? Please enlighten me.

Microsoft pulling the plug? The way things are going now, I highly doubt that. Also I'd like to point out, from my understanding ASP.NET MVC is open source -



ASP.NET MVC has a lot of nice things, like easy bundling and minification of Javascript and CSS. Easy to use auto image optimisation like



But yes I do agree that there are more PHP developers around this scene and that for the most part ASP.NET is more expensive.



How much experience have you had with ASP.NET and PHP? I'm a ASP.NET developer and working on a Ecommerce CMS on a daily basis with over 100 clients. Previously I was a PHP programmer and have programmed several plugins for forums systems (in particular vBulletin and IPB). I don't like it when people start making posts without actually being able to backup their claims.



EDIT: Not to mention the absolutely sexiness of LINQ in ASP.NET How is ASP.NET horrible at scaling? If you have a developer building an application in ASP.NET MVC with scalability in mind, it is extremely scalable.How is Azure insecure? Please enlighten me.Microsoft pulling the plug? The way things are going now, I highly doubt that. Also I'd like to point out, from my understanding ASP.NET MVC is open source - http://aspnetwebstack.codeplex.com/ ASP.NET MVC has a lot of nice things, like easy bundling and minification of Javascript and CSS. Easy to use auto image optimisation like http://imageresizing.net/ But yes I do agree that there are more PHP developers around this scene and that for the most part ASP.NET is more expensive.How much experience have you had with ASP.NET and PHP? I'm a ASP.NET developer and working on a Ecommerce CMS on a daily basis with over 100 clients. Previously I was a PHP programmer and have programmed several plugins for forums systems (in particular vBulletin and IPB). I don't like it when people start making posts without actually being able to backup their claims.EDIT: Not to mention the absolutely sexiness of LINQ in ASP.NET