(and MM2's TL career)

Seeing as I played a major role in the destruction of the previous Shadow Tag campaign, I think I'll pretty much put my thoughts here. Seeing as the last test was almost 4 years ago and I've stopped caring about this game, I'm going to try and limit my time here as much as possible. The last suspect test gave me like 5 forms of cancer that I don't want to have to go through that again. I'll try to ladder and vote if I can, but otherwise I'll just say my peace here and gtfo. As an Ubers purist, I'm pretty much against every ban in this game and this doesn't change here. Anyway, let's just get into this:By the way, most of the arguments for a Goth ban (from my interactions with most players) remain the same (matchup, free kill, yadda yadda). It's a real waste of time for me to engage in arguments with a huge amount of detail so I encourage everyone to go and read up on the common rebuttals to them (95% were made by me) in the old S-tag thread back from 2014: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ct-test-stuck-in-the-middle-with-you.3519501/ - yes I know it's TL;DR and will destroy your sanity but probably just to get a general picture and give you an idea of the shit that I don't have to go through again this time.So before we get into a fresh suspect test about this, we need to remember that we've not only had one, but two suspect test for this before. Sure, we're suspecting Goth solely now, but let's not get into any delusions that the Mgar and Shadow Tag suspect tests are irrelevant here. Shadow Tag as a whole is the elephant in the room and it's pretty much the reason that Goth is such a problem in the first place. So, now that's out of the way, with such a strong precedent that resulted in two no ban votes, you have to wonder why we're even bothering with this. Basically,. Don't get me wrong, there have been plenty of changes since late XY in which the previous suspect tests were held, and the aim of this discussion should be to address these.In terms of available tools to abuse with Gothitelle/Shadow Tag, not much, really.Everything broken about Gothitelle existed back in 2014, and arguably the metagame in which that suspect test was held is arguably even more advantageous for Gothitelle. HO was a lot less viable in XY and stall was much easier to use. The only real change, I suppose, is the way we're using Gothitelle. Back in 2014, the main set was the CM/Rest set and now most people are using the PP stall and/or Flatter sets. These sets seem to be better since they can either completely drain out a Pokemon and leaving it as setup fodder for something else or set them up for Psych Up Mega Gengar to sweep. The first set really isn't that broken, IMO since they didn't do much more than what the previous Gothitelle set did (which is essentially remove a Pokemon from the game and the consensus was at the time) that this was not broken.The Flatter -> Psych Up Gengar combo is really scary I have to admit, and if anything this should be the thing should get Goth banned if we do end up banning. However, I'll mostly address the main issue later, but you can prepare for this. There is also the issue on whether the fact it is the problem of Goth that can set this up or the fact that Gengar is the only one that can really abuse it since no other Pokemon can receive the Flatter boosts is the really broken? It's a semantics issue, but just something to screw the pooch there.There's the other issue on whether the PP stall set is really significantly (specifically game-breakingly better) than the old CM/Rest set. Sure, being able to effectively make a Pokemon useless and leaving it alive and making it setup fodder for something else is definitely better than straight up killing it, but on the flip side this Goth set is even more matchup reliant than the CM/Rest variant and less splashable since the CM/Rest set had a leftover move in which you can use on whatever you want so you can still use like Thunder Wave or Trick Room to fuck with offensive teams or Heal Bell for more general support. PP stall, on the other hand, is basically 5-6 vs teams that have makes any kind of effort to prepare for Goth.3) Match-up issues and "preparing for Gothitelle"This is probably the worst arguments of this whole thing and I'm kind of disappointed this is yet again, the main talking point about this suspect test. What annoys me most is when people making the arguments thatBut no seriously, this is a terribly simplified and misguided view. This logic is mainly used for tour games where you have to "gamble" on whether your opponent is bringing Goth or not, but it really isn't that simple. Even if we assume that Goth wins 100% of games vs teams that don't prepare for it (which I'm not convinced it is), there are so many other possibilities in team variation that in the other situation (where you do prepare for Goth) that to say that you're guaranteed to have a poor match-up is just retarded. Let's just break this down into the following:If you don't prepare for Goth- If opponent brings Goth -> you lose (not entirely true but we're pretending that it is, only situation where it is likely true is when you run into Flatter Goth + Gar combo, but even then it's not always a 100% lose)- If opponent doesn't bring Goth -> you could have either a favourable or not favourable matchup or neutralIf you prepare for Goth- If opponent brings Goth -> you could have either a favourable or not favourable matchup or neutral, but probably you have a favourable matchup because they're essentially playing 5-6- If your opponent doesn't bring Goth ->We'll just look at the last of these scenarios, because some advocates for Goth ban argue that you'll always get an unfavourable matchup in this scenario. This is simply not true. They claim that you're bound to be weaker to something else (eg Ho-oh or Marshadow or whatever). However, who is to say that your opponent is bound to have that Pokemon you're weak to, and even if they do, does that automatically mean you lose the game? These black and white arguments are so childish they need to stop, IMO.Another point I need to bring up is the fact that everyone is so angsty about not being able to cover every threat and if you pick to prepare for Goth you have to drop something else. I personally don't see why this is an issue, tbh. Pokemon has always been a game of probabilities. The onus is on you to make a team to decide which Pokemon you want to check and build your team accordingly. If you made a team that doesn't account for something specific that's your problem. We've never been able to cover every threat in this game so it's always been cover the threats that are most high yield. To be fair, this is more of a Smogon-wide trend, but people have been a lot more ban-happy and tend to want to ban something rather than deal with it. This might be fine in lower metagames, but in Ubers, despite the fact that we are now a "metagame", we should have some thicker skin when it comes to shit we don't like. It should be time that people accepted that they're not going to be able to cover every threat and therefore sacrifices in teambuilding have to be made. It's probably just me, but if Gothitelle is that big of a threat that you have to sacrifice your ability for something else, then so be it. I know people hate having to play vs poor match ups but to me anyway this is where the thrill of this game comes from, you shouldn't just give up once you get a shit match up and then blame something for forcing these things. Like I've made the example before in which Rafael Nadal's left-handed top spin is inherently advantageous against Federer but you don't see Federer getting pissed off and calling for all massive left handed top spinners to be banned.Also, I've also seen shit like "I just click X when I play against Goth because I don't even bother building for it" - this is seriously the worst. If you make no effort to check a Pokemon, it is entirely your fault if you lose against it and therefore should have no right to call for its ban.While we have changed the way we use Gothitelle, we have new ways to deal with it too. I'll preface this by saying that these measures obvious sacrifice a bit of your ability to deal with other threats as optimally as you'd like, but they are by no means totally crippling. They can still their jobs most of the time, they're probably like 80-90% effective in dealing with other threats while making them much less weak to Gothitelle.Supportceus - Z-physical move is nice way to hit Goth hard enough so that it can't get started in its ability to fuck you over. Mind you, this is not a guarantee for you to escape Goth entirely since they can still bait the move or even just Rest on your attack, but if you play your cards right you can poke a big enough hole in it to give yourself the opportunity to escape, and in a tournament setting one surprise attack is the all the difference you need most of the time. Like I said in the preface, this set is overall worse since you have to weaken Ice Beam and in general Judgement is more reliable, but operating at 80-90% effectiveness is still enough to check what they need to check. You can still win against PDon with standard EQ for example. You can also run Dark/Ghostceus if works for your team too. I guess the only common Supportceus unable to do this is Fairyceus, but Fairyceus is meh anyway especially with the introduction of Dusk Mane and if Goth is what seals its fate as a C or D rank mon then so be it.On the topic of Supportceus, personally I think it's just a boring ass fucker and if Goth punishes you for using it then all the better for the metagame :DLugia - Double phaze. Again, Ice Beam is preferred but this would work just as well as Lugia needs to do anywayPex - You have Regenerator and Recover, so sacrificing Leftovers for Shed Shell isn't that big a dealFerro - Fuck Ferro who needs emThe actual issue is how much the playerbase is willing to take, really. If we look at what has changed between XY and now in terms of significant stuff that would warrant a ban, not that much stuff have really changed. Way back about 5 years ago we had much more of a spine and dgaf, and believe me we had stupid shit like U-turn Genesect and weather wars and all that stuff. I personally don't think that something that punishes you in the way Gothitelle does if you don't prepare for it should be banned from Ubers ever but hey times a changing I suppose.Basically, if the community doesn't want to "deal with it" any more then I can't really say much more. I'd just be disappointed that our Ubers players have turned into snowflakes just like the rest of Smogon.Peace the fuck out