shiftybugger



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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 05, 2013, 09:38:36 AM #1



THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.



WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:

- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.

- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.

- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.

- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.

- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.

- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?



For the original discussion and more info, see this tread:

It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it. MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?For the original discussion and more info, see this tread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144611.0 It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it.

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Hero MemberActivity: 574Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 05, 2013, 02:18:43 PM #3 Quote from: usagi on March 05, 2013, 01:51:23 PM Sounds weird. I've never had a problem in more than 10 years shipping gold and silver all over the world. This is why you ALWAYS get a tracking number for a shipment and you ALWAYS ship insured. It sounds very very weird that the package was sent without tracking and the insurance company is rejecting the claim. I'd probably talk to a lawyer, because this isn't really a scam. It's not really CoinaBul's problem that the insurance company is rejecting the claim, but if I was CoinaBul I would switch insurance companies immediately and/or stop telling people their shipments are insured.



If this happened to me, I don't know if I would really have a right to get my money back. It feels like I should deserve my money back, but it's not really CoinaBul's problem, that's the honest truth about it. However, I will say this, if this kind of thing happens a lot it might be better to avoid CoinaBul because their supply chain is unreliable. You can't allow stuff like this to happen in your supply chain ever.



USPS will deny claims on coins if they weren't sent as a registered mail.



A customer paid for an insured shipment, it wasn't insured due to some issue that was out of customer's control.



Scam or not, but sounds like it's Coinabul's loss. Unless they can prove that the package was properly insured.

USPS will deny claims on coins if they weren't sent as a registered mail.A customer paid for an insured shipment, it wasn't insured due to some issue that was out of customer's control.Scam or not, but sounds like it's Coinabul's loss. Unless they can prove that the package was properly insured.

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DonatorSr. MemberActivity: 294Merit: 250 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 05, 2013, 04:51:33 PM #6 My orders with Coinable have arrived on time and as advertised, to me they seem like a reliable company. However if this situation as described in the OP is true, there is no reason for them to refuse a refund. The issue with the insurance claim was their mistake, unless there are details to this situation that we don't know.



I would like to hear Coinable's response to this, and reasoning for not taking responsibility.

Coinabul



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Coinabul - Gold Unbarred







Hero MemberActivity: 588Merit: 500Coinabul - Gold Unbarred Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 05:55:22 AM #16 Kris,





"I have been given no proof that anything was sent."



We gave you your tracking number countless times: here it is again at LJ664423272US. You've stated on multiple occasions that we provided no tracking information to you, and this is quite simply an outright lie. Every order, even uninsured parcels, carry tracking information which is always entered into our systems and transmitted to each customer instantly as your order is shipped.



"They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything."



We were very communicative with you on a non-stop basis, but despite this you proceeded to send me far too many messages which were all responded to graciously, and at horrendous times of day for us(such as 4:30AM Sunday) in the USA, in an effort to provide you the best customer service we could:

[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:22:40 AM] <coingenuity> anyway, i'm still wrangling with my insurance company, they're giving me a hassle about covering your parcel because the value changed over their arbitrary limit between when it was sent and when it didn't show up

[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:23:22 AM] <coingenuity> in essence, they're saying that because it changed in value by X% they won't cover it, even for the original value... so i'm harassing them on the phone to see if i can do anything about it



An excerpt from the insurance company in question:

"In looking at my notes, we spoke over the phone about this on 10/25/2012. At that time, I explained that the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages."





The date correlations between this excerpt and the next should be noted. I was still willing to cover a good portion portion out of pocket at that point, despite nonstop messages on IRC:

[Thursday, November 01, 2012] [10:51:26 PM] <shiftybugger> hey, any updates?

[Saturday, November 03, 2012] [07:02:50 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, November 04, 2012] [09:15:15 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [02:49:34 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:38:57 PM] <shiftybugger> ping







Excerpt:

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:41:26 PM] <coingenuity> but in the mean time I'm still hassling with the insurance company, who's adamant about not covering this parcel

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:46:50 PM] <shiftybugger> are they final on that or is it still ongoing?

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:49:35 PM] <coingenuity> they seem pretty final, but I'm still hassling them to see what can be done

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:55:08 PM] <shiftybugger> Ok. I'd appreciate if you could let me know how this looks like ending as soon as you know. I'm getting out of mining once block reward halves and was going to go with bullion to cash out as it's less hassle than Mt Gox. Need to decide if it's viable.

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity> absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements





Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.



While I explained to you that I'd likely do so, you send me continual messages on IRC to the point that it appeared scripted. I'd sit down at my computer, move my mouse, and instantly see another message from you. This was generally multiple times per day, for months, in addition to phone calls and emails at a similar frequency.





A small excerpt from my log follows:

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [12:36:02 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [02:02:10 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [10:19:15 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [01:35:47 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [06:43:16 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [03:24:48 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [07:15:32 PM] <shiftybugger> ping









Eventually, you managed to use up all the patience I had with trying to provide you support, and through continual harassment managed to dissuade me from paying for your order out of my own pocket. When I started this battle with the insurance company in question over covering your parcel, I went into it with the intent of covering AT LEAST half of your order out of sheer kindness, and was considering whether I could afford to cover 100% of the cost when you started to continually harass me. When it didn't stop for weeks, and then months, I became very quickly opposed to covering your shipment from my own pocket.







- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.



Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none. To this end, successfully structuring international insurance on bullion parcels is a difficult thing to achieve, and we take every possible step to remain in compliance with our insurers' terms such that each parcel is covered to the best of our ability, but ultimately the discretion of whether to pay an insurance claim lies with the underwriter. Considering that almost no insurance companies are willing to cover bullion transit, the very few who do are wary of fraudulent claims. The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims. While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul) the insurance company must make the final determination as to the validity of each customer's claim and appraise the legitimacy.



- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.



In terms of actual value, I will give you a real-time example. On a shipment in our disbursement queue, there is an actual $143 silver cost, and we've insured for $228, for a massive 60% buffer zone above silver spot price in order to ensure that spot price fluctuations in transit do not prove to be an issue. This costs us substantially more per month in insurance fees than we would otherwise incurr simply to ensure that spot price volatility proves to be no issue.



- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me.



The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else. We did our part and sent your product to you, and insured it under our policy within the limits set forth by the insurance company. If the insurance company refuses to cover the parcel, there's nothing we can do about it except harass them, which we did.





It's quite clear how you yourself contributed to the lack of coverage in this situation. When the insurance company refused to cover your shipment, and I offered to do so, you didn't show so much as a grain of appreciation...instead, you wrote a script to harass me on IRC. After seeing you post about us being non-communicative with you on bitcointalk even after responding to your ostensibly scripted semi-communication, there was no way I was willing to cover your shipment out of my own pocket. We send out millions of dollars worth of products, and expecting us to be responsible for out-of-pocket coverage in the case of an insurance company's refusal to do so is simply unreasonable.



Let's do some math, shall we?

So, assume 17oz of silver costs you $500. You send us Bitcoins, and by the time we're finished processing your shipment we've made $0.50-$0.75/oz. So, sum total $8.50-$12.75 give or take. For us to earn the cost of covering your order out of pocket, we must process the same order 59 times on the high end, 40 times on the low end. You can see very quickly that this makes it impossible to simply absorb the cost of sending a replacement product, especially if you consider that the products we are sending are liquid. We aren't sending a DVD player that depreciates when you sell it to your friend after it's in your hands, we are sending a highly valuable commodity which makes it quite easy for people to defraud our insured shipping process. To call for a scammer tag as we continually deliver Ferrari's worth of bullion to customers each month is simply ludicrous.



Although I've been quite clear with you in the past and I'm not quite sure as to the goal of your continued fabrications excepting a desire to besmirch, hopefully this helps you understand the circumstances a little more clearly.



-Jay

Coinabul.com - Gold Unbarred



Website owners, let me put my ads on your site! PM me!

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LegendaryActivity: 1372Merit: 1001 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 07:09:20 AM #17 Regardless of how badly he has harassed you, it doesn't change the facts that:

1) He paid you for silver

2) He didn't receive said silver



If your insurance is bad, that is YOUR problem, not his. You should have reimbursed him immediately, and then attempted to collect from your insurance to recover the funds for yourself. Offering to reimburse him for half of what he paid and expecting him to be thankful to you for it is absurd.



You complain about thin margins - well, that's the game you play. It doesn't matter how many similar-sized orders it would take to recover the loss, the onus is on you to do so, not on your customer. If you want thicker margins, then increase your prices.



The only exception I see here is if you believe the customer is scamming you. Are you making such a claim?



Sorry Coinabul, but you're in the wrong on this one. The customer deserves either a full refund or the correct amount of silver re-shipped to him.

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LegendaryActivity: 980Merit: 1008 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 07:23:28 AM #19



Quote If fedex denies an insurance claim for damaged goods I shipped via their service, am I liable as a seller to replace or repair that item at my own cost? buyer is threatening to sue me, but I did all possible to ensure item was protected and insured for transit. What is my responsibility?



I am sorry to learn of your circumstances. Unfortunately, yes, you are liable to repair or replace the damaged items. The buyer can sue you.

It would be up to you, then, to absorb the loss and/or you can sue FedEx for their claim denial and seek reimbursement for your loss.

It has been my pleasure to assist you today with your information needs. If you have a follow-up question, please reply and ask it.





http://www.justanswer.com/law/5mqve-fedex-denies-insurance-claim-damaged-goods-shipped.html



OP, I would contact a lawyer. Not really as authoritative as a supreme court ruling, but googling I did find this:OP, I would contact a lawyer.

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LegendaryActivity: 966Merit: 1000 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 08:14:07 AM #23 I have shipped over 3000 packages and have had 4 lost packages. When a package is lost. I refund the customer first and then try and make a claim. I have never not gotten a refund and the cost of the item back for a lost package.

shiftybugger



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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 09:13:18 AM #26 Quote from: TradeFortress on March 06, 2013, 09:06:57 AM What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?



Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.



I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email. Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.

TradeFortress 🏕

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VIPLegendaryActivity: 1176Merit: 1023 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 09:18:54 AM #27 Quote from: shiftybugger on March 06, 2013, 09:13:18 AM Quote from: TradeFortress on March 06, 2013, 09:06:57 AM What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?



Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.



I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.

Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.



Either way, it doesn't change that it's a lot more of Coinabul's fault than the buyer's fault, and covering the loss would be expected. I agree, time zones suck but I think a "message me when you're available" or "hey, I want to talk about the package, I'm in AEST and is available X to Y" would be better. Coinabul has a support email, no?Either way, it doesn't change that it's a lot more of Coinabul's fault than the buyer's fault, and covering the loss would be expected.

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Full MemberActivity: 129Merit: 100 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 09:23:58 AM #28 Who did shiftybugger pay insurance money to? If he paid it to Coinabul, they are responsible for insuring loss. They should re-send the original quantity of silver, and use better insurance this time. If there's some kind of insurance regulators responsible for mail insurers, Coinabul should contact them to pursue reimbursement for their loss.

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Hero MemberActivity: 518Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 09:40:08 AM #29 If they don't square this up I will send them a email, informing them I won't purchase anything more from them until they do. I don't they are willing to lose much business on a small order. Although, they don't owe you 81 btc. Only what the dollar value was on the order.

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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 10:01:58 AM

Last edit: March 06, 2013, 10:41:02 AM by shiftybugger #31



Quote from: Coinabul on March 06, 2013, 05:55:22 AM Kris,





"I have been given no proof that anything was sent."



We gave you your tracking number countless times: here it is again at LJ664423272US. You've stated on multiple occasions that we provided no tracking information to you, and this is quite simply an outright lie. Every order, even uninsured parcels, carry tracking information which is always entered into our systems and transmitted to each customer instantly as your order is shipped.



I'll grant you 'countless' only because I can't be sure if this is the first or second time I have received this number. You may have given it to me over IRC, I can't be sure as I didn't keep all of the logs. It isn't in any of the logs that I have. If so, this is the second time. When were the other times?



Quote "They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything."



We were very communicative with you on a non-stop basis, but despite this you proceeded to send me far too many messages which were all responded to graciously, and at horrendous times of day for us(such as 4:30AM Sunday) in the USA, in an effort to provide you the best customer service we could:

[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:22:40 AM] <coingenuity> anyway, i'm still wrangling with my insurance company, they're giving me a hassle about covering your parcel because the value changed over their arbitrary limit between when it was sent and when it didn't show up

[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:23:22 AM] <coingenuity> in essence, they're saying that because it changed in value by X% they won't cover it, even for the original value... so i'm harassing them on the phone to see if i can do anything about it



An excerpt from the insurance company in question:

"In looking at my notes, we spoke over the phone about this on 10/25/2012. At that time, I explained that the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages."





The date correlations between this excerpt and the next should be noted. I was still willing to cover a good portion portion out of pocket at that point, despite nonstop messages on IRC:

[Thursday, November 01, 2012] [10:51:26 PM] <shiftybugger> hey, any updates?

[Saturday, November 03, 2012] [07:02:50 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, November 04, 2012] [09:15:15 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [02:49:34 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:38:57 PM] <shiftybugger> ping







Excerpt:

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:41:26 PM] <coingenuity> but in the mean time I'm still hassling with the insurance company, who's adamant about not covering this parcel

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:46:50 PM] <shiftybugger> are they final on that or is it still ongoing?

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:49:35 PM] <coingenuity> they seem pretty final, but I'm still hassling them to see what can be done

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:55:08 PM] <shiftybugger> Ok. I'd appreciate if you could let me know how this looks like ending as soon as you know. I'm getting out of mining once block reward halves and was going to go with bullion to cash out as it's less hassle than Mt Gox. Need to decide if it's viable.

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity> absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements



Stringing me along - 'quite possibly'. You can see that I was pushing for a decision, an ending, some finality, 'Yes' or 'No'. It wasn't forthcoming, and didn't come until I started the other thread in late February, three months after this excerpt. And the answer was, 'No'.



Nice try at making my contact seem unreasonable. Look at the timestamps. Six failed attempts (the equivalent of a missed call) over five days is hardly excessive when you are being screwed around.



Quote Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.



Bully you? Please, I beg you, post a chat log that shows anything approaching bullying. I was never anything but polite. I'm pretty sure that the above excerpt was the most pushy that I ever got with you, and that is hardly pushy.



It seems that I'm not the only one here who thinks that it is an obligation.



Quote While I explained to you that I'd likely do so, you send me continual messages on IRC to the point that it appeared scripted. I'd sit down at my computer, move my mouse, and instantly see another message from you. This was generally multiple times per day, for months, in addition to phone calls and emails at a similar frequency.



I have super powers that let me know when you are at your desk?



I really think you are at least partially confusing me with someone else.

- I have contacted Coinabul TWICE via the contact page on the Coinabul website.

- I have emailed Coinabul EIGHT times total, between Jan 8 and Feb 17 as contact via IRC was difficult to establish.

- I have NEVER spoken to you on the phone or called you. I have no idea what your number is. I don't know what to say about this claim...



Quote A small excerpt from my log follows:

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [12:36:02 AM] <shiftybugger> ping - late afternoon Sunday for me

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [02:02:10 PM] <shiftybugger> ping - just before bed on Sunday

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [10:19:15 PM] <shiftybugger> ping - before leaving for work on Monday

[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [01:35:47 AM] <shiftybugger> ping - home from work on Tuesday

[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [06:43:16 PM] <shiftybugger> ping - midday on Wednesday

[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [03:24:48 AM] <shiftybugger> ping - Thursday evening

[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [07:15:32 PM] <shiftybugger> ping - just before bed Thursday evening



Dude, I live on the other side of the planet. I have a 9-5 job and kids. I have a fairly settled routine. You, however, appeared to be on IRC at odd times. So, when I had a spare few minutes I'd drop a ping to see if you were on. If not, I'd go have dinner, or go to bed, or go to work, and try again later. I wasn't harassing you, it was just the limitations of the only communication channel that I was able to establish with you.



Quote Eventually, you managed to use up all the patience I had with trying to provide you support, and through continual harassment managed to dissuade me from paying for your order out of my own pocket. When I started this battle with the insurance company in question over covering your parcel, I went into it with the intent of covering AT LEAST half of your order out of sheer kindness, and was considering whether I could afford to cover 100% of the cost when you started to continually harass me. When it didn't stop for weeks, and then months, I became very quickly opposed to covering your shipment from my own pocket.



You call it harassment, I call it trying to get some information. I don't recall ever receiving info from you unsolicited, I had to chase it.



Quote - The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.



Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none. To this end, successfully structuring international insurance on bullion parcels is a difficult thing to achieve, and we take every possible step to remain in compliance with our insurers' terms such that each parcel is covered to the best of our ability, but ultimately the discretion of whether to pay an insurance claim lies with the underwriter. Considering that almost no insurance companies are willing to cover bullion transit, the very few who do are wary of fraudulent claims. The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims. While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul) the insurance company must make the final determination as to the validity of each customer's claim and appraise the legitimacy.



- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.



In terms of actual value, I will give you a real-time example. On a shipment in our disbursement queue, there is an actual $143 silver cost, and we've insured for $228, for a massive 60% buffer zone above silver spot price in order to ensure that spot price fluctuations in transit do not prove to be an issue. This costs us substantially more per month in insurance fees than we would otherwise incurr simply to ensure that spot price volatility proves to be no issue.



Yeah, now that you have restructured your insurance arrangements. Apparently in my case, Quote the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages.

So how much of a buffer did MY shipment have? I can easily demonstrate that spot price didn't inflate by 60% over the timeframe in question.



Quote - The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me.



The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else. We did our part and sent your product to you, and insured it under our policy within the limits set forth by the insurance company. If the insurance company refuses to cover the parcel, there's nothing we can do about it except harass them, which we did.



A thinly veiled suggestion that I am claiming fraudulently? Stay classy.



Quote It's quite clear how you yourself contributed to the lack of coverage in this situation. When the insurance company refused to cover your shipment, and I offered to do so, you didn't show so much as a grain of appreciation...instead, you wrote a script to harass me on IRC. After seeing you post about us being non-communicative with you on bitcointalk even after responding to your ostensibly scripted semi-communication, there was no way I was willing to cover your shipment out of my own pocket.





Dude, scripting? As stated before, I simply tried to get hold of you when I could. I have never written a script for IRC in my life. Every entry that you have from me in your chat log came from my fingers on the keyboard.



Excuse me for saving my appreciation for when your offer to replace it became reality. It didn't happen. From your vague 'quite possibly' and 'probably' etc, I never expected it to.



Quote We send out millions of dollars worth of products, and expecting us to be responsible for out-of-pocket coverage in the case of an insurance company's refusal to do so is simply unreasonable.



Apparently you're the only one who thinks so.



Quote Let's do some math, shall we?

So, assume 17oz of silver costs you $500. You send us Bitcoins, and by the time we're finished processing your shipment we've made $0.50-$0.75/oz. So, sum total $8.50-$12.75 give or take. For us to earn the cost of covering your order out of pocket, we must process the same order 59 times on the high end, 40 times on the low end. You can see very quickly that this makes it impossible to simply absorb the cost of sending a replacement product, especially if you consider that the products we are sending are liquid. We aren't sending a DVD player that depreciates when you sell it to your friend after it's in your hands, we are sending a highly valuable commodity which makes it quite easy for people to defraud our insured shipping process. To call for a scammer tag as we continually deliver Ferrari's worth of bullion to customers each month is simply ludicrous.



The size of your margins are none of my concern. And again with the suggestion that I'm committing fraud. If the law isn't on your side, bang on the facts. If the facts aren't on your side, bang on the table.



Quote Although I've been quite clear with you in the past and I'm not quite sure as to the goal of your continued fabrications excepting a desire to besmirch, hopefully this helps you understand the circumstances a little more clearly.



Fabrications like me calling you on the phone? Riiiight.



You say 'besmirch', I say warning people. Hell, I don't even need to add much to what Coinabul reps have admitted themselves. I paid, I didn't receive. Coinabul underinsured, I'm out of pocket.



Let's 'reality' this down a bit.I'll grant you 'countless' only because I can't be sure if this is the first or second time I have received this number. You may have given it to me over IRC, I can't be sure as I didn't keep all of the logs. It isn't in any of the logs that I have. If so, this is the second time. When were the other times?Stringing me along - 'quite possibly'. You can see that I was pushing for a decision, an ending, some finality, 'Yes' or 'No'. It wasn't forthcoming, and didn't come until I started the other thread in late February, three months after this excerpt. And the answer was, 'No'.Nice try at making my contact seem unreasonable. Look at the timestamps. Six failed attempts (the equivalent of a missed call) over five days is hardly excessive when you are being screwed around.Bully you? Please, I beg you, post a chat log that shows anything approaching bullying. I was never anything but polite. I'm pretty sure that the above excerpt was the most pushy that I ever got with you, and that is hardly pushy.It seems that I'm not the only one here who thinks that it is an obligation.I have super powers that let me know when you are at your desk?I really think you are at least partially confusing me with someone else.- I have contacted Coinabul TWICE via the contact page on the Coinabul website.- I have emailed Coinabul EIGHT times total, between Jan 8 and Feb 17 as contact via IRC was difficult to establish.- I have NEVER spoken to you on the phone or called you. I have no idea what your number is. I don't know what to say about this claim...Dude, I live on the other side of the planet. I have a 9-5 job and kids. I have a fairly settled routine. You, however, appeared to be on IRC at odd times. So, when I had a spare few minutes I'd drop a ping to see if you were on. If not, I'd go have dinner, or go to bed, or go to work, and try again later. I wasn't harassing you, it was just the limitations of the only communication channel that I was able to establish with you.You call it harassment, I call it trying to get some information. I don't recall ever receiving info from you unsolicited, I had to chase it.Yeah, now that you have restructured your insurance arrangements. Apparently in my case,So how much of a buffer did MY shipment have? I can easily demonstrate that spot price didn't inflate by 60% over the timeframe in question.A thinly veiled suggestion that I am claiming fraudulently? Stay classy.Dude, scripting? As stated before, I simply tried to get hold of you when I could. I have never written a script for IRC in my life. Every entry that you have from me in your chat log came from my fingers on the keyboard.Excuse me for saving my appreciation for when your offer to replace it became reality. It didn't happen. From your vague 'quite possibly' and 'probably' etc, I never expected it to.Apparently you're the only one who thinks so.The size of your margins are none of my concern. And again with the suggestion that I'm committing fraud. If the law isn't on your side, bang on the facts. If the facts aren't on your side, bang on the table.Fabrications like me calling you on the phone? Riiiight.You say 'besmirch', I say warning people. Hell, I don't even need to add much to what Coinabul reps have admitted themselves. I paid, I didn't receive. Coinabul underinsured, I'm out of pocket.

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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 10:04:34 AM #32 Quote from: TradeFortress on March 06, 2013, 09:18:54 AM Quote from: shiftybugger on March 06, 2013, 09:13:18 AM Quote from: TradeFortress on March 06, 2013, 09:06:57 AM What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?



Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.



I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.

Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.



Either way, it doesn't change that it's a lot more of Coinabul's fault than the buyer's fault, and covering the loss would be expected.

I agree, time zones suck but I think a "message me when you're available" or "hey, I want to talk about the package, I'm in AEST and is available X to Y" would be better. Coinabul has a support email, no?Either way, it doesn't change that it's a lot more of Coinabul's fault than the buyer's fault, and covering the loss would be expected.

They do have a support email, but I wasn't getting replies from it. They say that their emails oft get eaten by spam filters, and that may be the case here - although they weren't going to my spam folder either. Either way, email was not proving effective. They do have a support email, but I wasn't getting replies from it. They say that their emails oft get eaten by spam filters, and that may be the case here - although they weren't going to my spam folder either. Either way, email was not proving effective.

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LegendaryActivity: 980Merit: 1008 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 10:12:05 AM #33 shiftybugger, it doesnt seem like coinabul is going to fold without legal action. Im also convinced the law is on your side. There was a US based lawyer offering his services on this forum not so long ago, I suggest you get in touch with him. It may not have to come to court, just a letter from a lawyer might be enough for coinabul to talk to their legal counsel and realize they will have to reimburse you one way or the other.

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Full MemberActivity: 120Merit: 100 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 10:22:12 AM #36 Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread. I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice. They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything? Completely inappropriate response. I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this.

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DonatorHero MemberActivity: 668Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 12:14:44 PM #40



This is quite pathetic, and even more so that you don't seem to realise it.



And you're complaining that he wanted you to do what you promised? And waited months for no result?



Quote from: Coinabul on March 06, 2013, 05:55:22 AM Kris,





"I have been given no proof that anything was sent."



We gave you your tracking number countless times: here it is again at LJ664423272US. You've stated on multiple occasions that we provided no tracking information to you, and this is quite simply an outright lie. Every order, even uninsured parcels, carry tracking information which is always entered into our systems and transmitted to each customer instantly as your order is shipped.



"They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything."



We were very communicative with you on a non-stop basis, but despite this you proceeded to send me far too many messages which were all responded to graciously, and at horrendous times of day for us(such as 4:30AM Sunday) in the USA, in an effort to provide you the best customer service we could:

[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:22:40 AM] <coingenuity> anyway, i'm still wrangling with my insurance company, they're giving me a hassle about covering your parcel because the value changed over their arbitrary limit between when it was sent and when it didn't show up

[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:23:22 AM] <coingenuity> in essence, they're saying that because it changed in value by X% they won't cover it, even for the original value... so i'm harassing them on the phone to see if i can do anything about it



An excerpt from the insurance company in question:

"In looking at my notes, we spoke over the phone about this on 10/25/2012. At that time, I explained that the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages."





The date correlations between this excerpt and the next should be noted. I was still willing to cover a good portion portion out of pocket at that point, despite nonstop messages on IRC:

[Thursday, November 01, 2012] [10:51:26 PM] <shiftybugger> hey, any updates?

[Saturday, November 03, 2012] [07:02:50 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, November 04, 2012] [09:15:15 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [02:49:34 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:38:57 PM] <shiftybugger> ping







Excerpt:

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:41:26 PM] <coingenuity> but in the mean time I'm still hassling with the insurance company, who's adamant about not covering this parcel

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:46:50 PM] <shiftybugger> are they final on that or is it still ongoing?

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:49:35 PM] <coingenuity> they seem pretty final, but I'm still hassling them to see what can be done

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:55:08 PM] <shiftybugger> Ok. I'd appreciate if you could let me know how this looks like ending as soon as you know. I'm getting out of mining once block reward halves and was going to go with bullion to cash out as it's less hassle than Mt Gox. Need to decide if it's viable.

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity> absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements





Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.



While I explained to you that I'd likely do so, you send me continual messages on IRC to the point that it appeared scripted. I'd sit down at my computer, move my mouse, and instantly see another message from you. This was generally multiple times per day, for months, in addition to phone calls and emails at a similar frequency.





A small excerpt from my log follows:

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [12:36:02 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [02:02:10 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [10:19:15 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [01:35:47 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [06:43:16 PM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [03:24:48 AM] <shiftybugger> ping

[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [07:15:32 PM] <shiftybugger> ping









Eventually, you managed to use up all the patience I had with trying to provide you support, and through continual harassment managed to dissuade me from paying for your order out of my own pocket. When I started this battle with the insurance company in question over covering your parcel, I went into it with the intent of covering AT LEAST half of your order out of sheer kindness, and was considering whether I could afford to cover 100% of the cost when you started to continually harass me. When it didn't stop for weeks, and then months, I became very quickly opposed to covering your shipment from my own pocket.







- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.



Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none. To this end, successfully structuring international insurance on bullion parcels is a difficult thing to achieve, and we take every possible step to remain in compliance with our insurers' terms such that each parcel is covered to the best of our ability, but ultimately the discretion of whether to pay an insurance claim lies with the underwriter. Considering that almost no insurance companies are willing to cover bullion transit, the very few who do are wary of fraudulent claims. The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims. While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul) the insurance company must make the final determination as to the validity of each customer's claim and appraise the legitimacy.



- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.



In terms of actual value, I will give you a real-time example. On a shipment in our disbursement queue, there is an actual $143 silver cost, and we've insured for $228, for a massive 60% buffer zone above silver spot price in order to ensure that spot price fluctuations in transit do not prove to be an issue. This costs us substantially more per month in insurance fees than we would otherwise incurr simply to ensure that spot price volatility proves to be no issue.



- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me.



The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else. We did our part and sent your product to you, and insured it under our policy within the limits set forth by the insurance company. If the insurance company refuses to cover the parcel, there's nothing we can do about it except harass them, which we did.





It's quite clear how you yourself contributed to the lack of coverage in this situation. When the insurance company refused to cover your shipment, and I offered to do so, you didn't show so much as a grain of appreciation...instead, you wrote a script to harass me on IRC. After seeing you post about us being non-communicative with you on bitcointalk even after responding to your ostensibly scripted semi-communication, there was no way I was willing to cover your shipment out of my own pocket. We send out millions of dollars worth of products, and expecting us to be responsible for out-of-pocket coverage in the case of an insurance company's refusal to do so is simply unreasonable.



Let's do some math, shall we?

So, assume 17oz of silver costs you $500. You send us Bitcoins, and by the time we're finished processing your shipment we've made $0.50-$0.75/oz. So, sum total $8.50-$12.75 give or take. For us to earn the cost of covering your order out of pocket, we must process the same order 59 times on the high end, 40 times on the low end. You can see very quickly that this makes it impossible to simply absorb the cost of sending a replacement product, especially if you consider that the products we are sending are liquid. We aren't sending a DVD player that depreciates when you sell it to your friend after it's in your hands, we are sending a highly valuable commodity which makes it quite easy for people to defraud our insured shipping process. To call for a scammer tag as we continually deliver Ferrari's worth of bullion to customers each month is simply ludicrous.



Although I've been quite clear with you in the past and I'm not quite sure as to the goal of your continued fabrications excepting a desire to besmirch, hopefully this helps you understand the circumstances a little more clearly.



-Jay



Jay, have you any idea how lame your excuses sound? You should have paid him straight away, and had your own fight with the insurance company in your own time.This is quite pathetic, and even more so that you don't seem to realise it.And you're complaining that he wanted you to do what you promised? And waited months for no result?

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Hero MemberActivity: 574Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 12:17:25 PM #41 So I was right afterwards, the silver was shipped with USPS Priority International, not with Registered Mail. USPS will refuse claims on coins if it wasn't sent with registered mail.



LJ664423272US - is the Priority vs RAxxxx for Registered Mail.



Registered Mail CAN be tracked, because there is a chain of custody (though only delivery information will be available online).

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Sr. MemberActivity: 364Merit: 250firstbits 1LoCBS Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 12:33:56 PM #42



I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC -for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.



I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)



And the logo:







81 BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?



If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all



Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?I've considered a couple of times starting a-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)And the logo:81back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all

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Sr. MemberActivity: 471Merit: 250 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 06:17:10 PM #46 I've never dealt with Coinabul and after reading this I never will! It's not exactly a huge amount we're talking about and I can't believe that this has been going on for months! Those who cause problems for others also cause problems for themselves.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 456Merit: 250 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 06:39:45 PM #47 used coinabul before and had no problems other than the shipping delay.. was looking forward to using them again in the future if they improved their shipping times but now this.. will be watching to see if it gets worked out. poop!

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LegendaryActivity: 1194Merit: 1010 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 07:35:15 PM #49 So the package got lost in Customs? Maybe it was just hold by them until the cost of storage didn't reach the cost of package or something of the kind?



What if seller sends goods to buyer... Customs hold the goods because they want to get tax from recipient... but they can't contact recipient for some reason (or recipient ignores their notices because he doesn't want to pay anything)...



Then should the seller cover the expenses, or insurance company? Can they be liable for that?



Just a hypothetical situation, out of curiosity. Advertise with Anonymous Ads

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Full MemberActivity: 129Merit: 100 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 06, 2013, 09:56:47 PM #50 Why would anyone ship something valuable like hundreds of dollars of silver coins through the Post Office? And the insurer is a real fail, but Coinabul shouldn't throw away their reputation just because someone else screwed them out of a modest sum.

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Hero MemberActivity: 616Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 07, 2013, 12:09:10 AM #51 Quote from: shiftybugger on March 05, 2013, 09:38:36 AM



THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.



WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:

- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.

- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.

- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.

- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.

- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.

- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?



For the original discussion and more info, see this tread:

It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it.

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?For the original discussion and more info, see this tread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144611.0 It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it.

a couple of questions



Could they provide proof of the insurance?

Did they send you a copy of the T and C's?

Why not just claim for the original value - how would they know it increased and isn't a substantial portion better than nothing. In my experience you insure a package for a fixed amount. If the package is lost in transit then you are entitled to the insured amount appreciation or depreciation of the contents as a determining factor seems a little strange to me a couple of questionsCould they provide proof of the insurance?Did they send you a copy of the T and C's?Why not just claim for the original value - how would they know it increased and isn't a substantial portion better than nothing. In my experience you insure a package for a fixed amount. If the package is lost in transit then you are entitled to the insured amount appreciation or depreciation of the contents as a determining factor seems a little strange to me

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Hero MemberActivity: 616Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 07, 2013, 12:13:48 AM #52 also



Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:



If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

TradeFortress 🏕

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VIPLegendaryActivity: 1176Merit: 1023 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 07, 2013, 06:07:48 AM #53 Quote from: bozak on March 06, 2013, 10:22:12 AM Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread. I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice. They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything? Completely inappropriate response. I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this.

+1



I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.



Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure. I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure.

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Hero MemberActivity: 616Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 07, 2013, 06:49:44 AM #54 Quote from: TradeFortress on March 07, 2013, 06:07:48 AM Quote from: bozak on March 06, 2013, 10:22:12 AM Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread. I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice. They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything? Completely inappropriate response. I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this.

+1



I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.



Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure.

I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure.

I have ordered several coins from Coinabul in the past. I do not understand how they acquire and ship their product, but I kind of assumed they acquired it after payment as the handling time to ship was sometimes weeks or more and required a few emails in order to get the ball rolling. To be fair I did get everything, but I was concerned about the inconsistency in communication and shipping. I don't know Jay at all but I am sure he is monitoring this thread. I would suggest that the negative press he is getting here will do irreparable damage to any future business he may wish to engage in. Risk of loss was undoubtedly with Coinabul in this matter. I will be watching this very closely I have ordered several coins from Coinabul in the past. I do not understand how they acquire and ship their product, but I kind of assumed they acquired it after payment as the handling time to ship was sometimes weeks or more and required a few emails in order to get the ball rolling. To be fair I did get everything, but I was concerned about the inconsistency in communication and shipping. I don't know Jay at all but I am sure he is monitoring this thread. I would suggest that the negative press he is getting here will do irreparable damage to any future business he may wish to engage in. Risk of loss was undoubtedly with Coinabul in this matter. I will be watching this very closely

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Hero MemberActivity: 504Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 07, 2013, 06:16:44 PM #56 I am also glad I read this post as I was considering using Coinabul in the future but now will not.

It is the sellers responsibility to ensure the package arrives for the customer, not the buyers. If the package does not arrive then it again is the sellers liability.

Unless the buyer paid for and instructed which insurance company to use then this is your liability and you should refund or replace.

If a refund was due I also agree that a USD tied refund should be given since the BTC price has gone up significantly since then.

I myself have had instances where packages have not arrived and have always refunded the customers first, for one this would have stopped this bad publicity which has probably cost your company in lost revenue as well even in some cases where I did not receive any compensation myself.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 350Merit: 250 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 07, 2013, 10:47:15 PM #57 Some customer service. So glad I read this thread, I will not be using or recommending coinabul after reading that rubbish excuse for customer service.

Its the little little things that count when you deal with the public. Maybe petty to him ($500 at the time).. But he will lose a considerable amount of this im sure. Free Litecoin Faucet ---> http://ltc4you.com/?r=6840

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Mike CaldwellVIPLegendaryActivity: 1386Merit: 1062The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B) Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 02:25:58 AM #61 Quote from: bozak on March 06, 2013, 10:22:12 AM Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread. I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice. They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything? Completely inappropriate response. I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this.



Here would be my take:



1. I take the position that I only guarantee I'll send what was ordered. I do not guarantee anyone will receive what they ordered unless they pay for insurance, which in my case is only available with registered mail. There's not really another sustainable position to take without opening myself up to scams.



2. It is so incredibly rare for things to disappear in the mail that paying for insurance, in terms of expected value, is virtually always a waste of money. Odds of losing a package are easily more favorable than 500:1. It only makes sense for the most valuable of shipments.



3. One good way I've found to mitigate risk, especially with silver coins, is to split orders up into multiple envelopes and mail them on separate days. This also helps things make it through customs with the privilege of not getting flagged for special treatment. And that's how it seems is the best way to mail silver coins: in a boring envelope (mine are 15cm x 15cm, meant for mailing CDs/DVDs).



4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance. As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them. Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed").



5. I may, in my sole discretion, offer favors to keep people happy. The simplest favor I can offer to someone I'm forced to say they're outta luck is offering them a replacement order "at cost" without any markup, and throwing in freebies that might be valuable to them but are low cost for me. Then again, I have more flexibility in that respect than a bullion dealer, because I can pad my products with a healthy markup and a bullion dealer cannot while still remaining competitive. If I were a bullion dealer, I'm not sure what I would do, cause it's not like I could just throw in some free PM's to anyone claiming a loss and keep my business sustainable. ANd if someone came to the forums and alleged that I was a "scammer" as in this thread (as opposed to simply posting that they're disappointed they took a loss) I'd be the least motivated to offer a favor, just sayin.



6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted. That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me. Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered. Here would be my take:1. I take the position that I only guarantee I'll send what was ordered. I do not guarantee anyone will receive what they ordered unless they pay for insurance, which in my case is only available with registered mail. There's not really another sustainable position to take without opening myself up to scams.2. It is so incredibly rare for things to disappear in the mail that paying for insurance, in terms of expected value, is virtually always a waste of money. Odds of losing a package are easily more favorable than 500:1. It only makes sense for the most valuable of shipments.3. One good way I've found to mitigate risk, especially with silver coins, is to split orders up into multiple envelopes and mail them on separate days. This also helps things make it through customs with the privilege of not getting flagged for special treatment. And that's how it seems is the best way to mail silver coins: in a boring envelope (mine are 15cm x 15cm, meant for mailing CDs/DVDs).4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance. As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them. Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed").5. I may, in my sole discretion, offer favors to keep people happy. The simplest favor I can offer to someone I'm forced to say they're outta luck is offering them a replacement order "at cost" without any markup, and throwing in freebies that might be valuable to them but are low cost for me. Then again, I have more flexibility in that respect than a bullion dealer, because I can pad my products with a healthy markup and a bullion dealer cannot while still remaining competitive. If I were a bullion dealer, I'm not sure what I would do, cause it's not like I could just throw in some free PM's to anyone claiming a loss and keep my business sustainable. ANd if someone came to the forums and alleged that I was a "scammer" as in this thread (as opposed to simply posting that they're disappointed they took a loss) I'd be the least motivated to offer a favor, just sayin.6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted. That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me. Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered. Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable. I never believe them. If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins. I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion. Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice. Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.

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LegendaryActivity: 1596Merit: 1010Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack. Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 02:31:38 AM #62 Quote 4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance. As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them. Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed"). This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.

This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying. I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz

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LegendaryActivity: 1918Merit: 1558Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 02:50:18 AM #63 I'm having trouble comprehending the insurance aspect. If send via USPS, which has proven that it was via Priority Mail, then the only insurance that could have been use was the one provided by the USPS. I can't phantom the use of some other insurance used, even if another entity existed.



Please set me straight on the above if I'm in error.



Last year, I had an accounts payable dispute with one of my regular clients in the sum of exactly $500. Sometimes, I supplied him wood between him getting paid from his clients (30 days, normally). In this case, I supplied him three loads of wood whereupon he owed me $9,500. None of this was written down, for it was straightforward, consisting of round numbers. Two days prior to him paying me, he called to let me know he had gotten paid, but needed the funds to settle in his bank first. At that point, we confirmed the amount owed. Two days later I went to pick up the check, and it was $500 short. We each redid the math five times, him opting to use the Ma and Pa Kettle math. I quickly gave in, for I didn't want to loose him as a customer. The guy is very straight up and has never lied to me before. I made great profit off sales to him in the past, and continue to do so to this day, as well as continue to do so in the future.



I have never shared the above with anybody until now.



Another incident last year consisted of a woman who needed only 200 s/f of flooring, but order 300 s/f to make sure she had enough. I delivered slightly over 300 s/f which equals the volume of half of a full size pick up truck bed. She calls me about a week later and states that she was short over 50 s/f, which was impossible. I even had pics of the load, as I did of the loads I mentioned in the previous paragraph. But I was not going to call her a liar and show her proof. I quickly delivered a little more than 50 more s/f of the same lumber to her garage, never seeing her 12 X 15 dining room.



I never expected to her from her again, but got luck and she ordered barn wood for two walls she was doing in her basement.



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LegendaryActivity: 1441Merit: 1000Live and enjoy experiments Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 02:55:46 AM #64 Quote from: JoelKatz on March 08, 2013, 02:31:38 AM Quote 4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance. As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them. Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed"). This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.



This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.

+1. I have exactly the same question.

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Mike CaldwellVIPLegendaryActivity: 1386Merit: 1062The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B) Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 03:11:51 AM #66 Quote from: JoelKatz on March 08, 2013, 02:31:38 AM Quote 4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance. As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them. Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed"). This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.



This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.

I don't pay for insurance to bet against my customers getting their shipments, so it's moot (if I were dealing bullion it might be different and sensibly so). The point I am trying to make is that there are two prices you can pay, and you can pay the lower price and take a small risk and get a good value, especially if the order is small and not worth registering. I don't pay for insurance to bet against my customers getting their shipments, so it's moot (if I were dealing bullion it might be different and sensibly so). The point I am trying to make is that there are two prices you can pay, and you can pay the lower price and take a small risk and get a good value, especially if the order is small and not worth registering. Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable. I never believe them. If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins. I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion. Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice. Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.

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Hero MemberActivity: 574Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 03:36:31 AM #68 Quote from: casascius on March 08, 2013, 02:25:58 AM 6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted. That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me. Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered.



Are you shipping your international packages with registered mail? I think for US you sent me with Priority, I don't recall. Are you shipping your international packages with registered mail? I think for US you sent me with Priority, I don't recall.

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Hero MemberActivity: 574Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 03:38:55 AM

Last edit: March 08, 2013, 03:49:40 AM by vampire #69 Quote from: shiftybugger on March 07, 2013, 09:24:19 AM Quote from: davidspitzer on March 07, 2013, 12:13:48 AM also



Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:



If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.



Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).



Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver. Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.

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Hero MemberActivity: 616Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 03:55:27 AM #70 Quote from: vampire on March 08, 2013, 03:38:55 AM Quote from: shiftybugger on March 07, 2013, 09:24:19 AM Quote from: davidspitzer on March 07, 2013, 12:13:48 AM also



Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:



If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.



Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).



Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.



Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the end



Risk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.



Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:



Agreement - the agreement of the parties controls

Breach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.

Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.

Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations

If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.

If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.

If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1] Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the endRisk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:Agreement - the agreement of the parties controlsBreach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligationsIf it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1]

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Hero MemberActivity: 574Merit: 500 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 04:14:25 AM #71 Quote from: davidspitzer on March 08, 2013, 03:55:27 AM Quote from: vampire on March 08, 2013, 03:38:55 AM Quote from: shiftybugger on March 07, 2013, 09:24:19 AM Quote from: davidspitzer on March 07, 2013, 12:13:48 AM also



Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:



If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.



Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).



Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.



Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the end



Risk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.



Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:



Agreement - the agreement of the parties controls

Breach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.

Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.

Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations

If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.

If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.

If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1]

Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the endRisk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:Agreement - the agreement of the parties controlsBreach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1]

The last one wouln't be applicable in this case, since this is applicable:



Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations

The last one wouln't be applicable in this case, since this is applicable:Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations

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Mike CaldwellVIPLegendaryActivity: 1386Merit: 1062The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B) Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 04:17:57 AM #72 Quote from: vampire on March 08, 2013, 03:36:31 AM Quote from: casascius on March 08, 2013, 02:25:58 AM 6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted. That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me. Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered.



Are you shipping your international packages with registered mail? I think for US you sent me with Priority, I don't recall.

Are you shipping your international packages with registered mail? I think for US you sent me with Priority, I don't recall.

I typically send regular mail (aka "First Class Mail"). And it arrives well over 99% of the time. I will sometimes send international priority mail for heavy shipments since it's a better rate, but once it leaves the US, it is virtually identical to regular mail.



Express (EMS) is what I offer as a premium shipping option for international shipping. It's pretty reliable, and there's tracking end-to-end in most places, though it also increases the likelihood that customs will care about your package and want to charge an import tax, if it were me I would just go for regular mail and take my chances.

I typically send regular mail (aka "First Class Mail"). And it arrives well over 99% of the time. I will sometimes send international priority mail for heavy shipments since it's a better rate, but once it leaves the US, it is virtually identical to regular mail.Express (EMS) is what I offer as a premium shipping option for international shipping. It's pretty reliable, and there's tracking end-to-end in most places, though it also increases the likelihood that customs will care about your package and want to charge an import tax, if it were me I would just go for regular mail and take my chances. Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable. I never believe them. If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins. I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion. Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice. Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.

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aka psyLegendaryActivity: 1456Merit: 1000 Re: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc March 08, 2013, 04:22:08 AM #73 Quote from: vampire on March 08, 2013, 04:14:25 AM Quote from: davidspitzer on March 08, 2013, 03:55:27 