

August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview

(JonBenet's oversize bloomies)



0077

18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start

19 with what - I will make it very simple for

20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you

21 in possession of or what do you know about

22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing

23 at the time she was found murdered?

24 A. I have heard that she had on a

25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.



0078

1 Q. The underwear that she was

2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you

3 know where they come from as far as what

4 store?

5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.

6 Q. Who purchased those?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased

9 them?

10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.

11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many

12 trips did you make to New York?

13 A. Two, I believe.

14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the

15 same, same qualification I gave you when we

16 started, which is, I understand that you are

17 not going to give me exact dates, but the

18 two trips you made, did you make those with

19 different groups of people?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip

22 with?

23 A. The first trip was a

24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra

25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan



0079

1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her

2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.

3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her

4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.

5 Q. And the second trip you made was?

6 A. The second trip we made was with

7 Glen and Susan Stein.

8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip

9 was the November trip?

10 A. With the children.

11 Q. Was that -- that is the first

12 trip?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the second trip that you and

15 your husband and the Steins took, was that

16 also November, but later in the month, or

17 was that a December trip?

18 A. I think it was December.

19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your

20 memory as to time. I believe that was the

21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you out of town?



0080

1 A. I remember that.

2 Q. Which of those two trips did you

3 purchase the Bloomi's?

4 A. The first trip.

5 Q. Was it something that was selected

6 by JonBenet?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. Was it your intention, when you

9 purchased those, for those to be for her,

10 not for some third party as a gift?

11 A. I bought some things that were

12 gifts and some things for her. So I

13 don't --

14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is

15 your best recollection that the purchase of

16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the

17 week, was something that you bought for her,

18 whether it was just I am buying underwear

19 for my kids or these are special, here's a

20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your

21 intention that she would wear those?

22 A. Well, I think that I bought a

23 package of the -- they came in a package of

24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

25 I think I bought a package to give to my



0081

1 niece.

2 Q. Which niece was that?

3 A. Jenny Davis.

4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do

5 you remember that they come in kind of a

6 plastic see-through plastic container.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. They are rolled up?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,

11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your

12 niece, and one for JonBenet?

13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or

14 two.

15 Q. Do you remember what size they

16 were?

17 A. Not exactly.

18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the

19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your

20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you

21 can accept that as a fact, when she was

22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit

23 her. Were you aware of that?

24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

25 as a matter of fact --



0082

1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a

2 matter --

3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old

4 child?

5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as

6 a matter of fact.



(SNIP)



0082

17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your

18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;

19 correct?

20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

21 Q. She was six years old?

22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

23 Q. What size underpants would you

24 normally buy for her?

25 A. 8 to 10.



0083

1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it

2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is

3 wearing underpants designed for someone who

4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,

5 that those would not fit her?

6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she

7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit

8 as well as a smaller pair.

9 Q. And as a mother, you would know

10 that someone who is 85 pounds is

11 significantly larger than your little

12 six-year-old?

13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that

14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without

15 her having to document a mathematical fact,

16 Bruce?

17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the

18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you

19 agree?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to

22 understand is whether -- we are trying to

23 understand why she is wearing such a large

24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can

25 help us if you have a recollection of it.



0084

1 A. I am sure that I put the package

2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

3 them and put them on.

4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought

5 these sometime in mid to early December, is

6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,

7 you bought them in November?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing

10 these? And I don't mean this specific day

11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you

12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in

13 this package of underpants and had been

14 wearing them since the trip to New York in

15 November?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the

18 laundry for the family, that is part of her

19 duties; is that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash

22 clothes on occasion?

23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.

24 Q. Do you have any recollection of

25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?



0085

1 A. Not specifically.

2 Q. Was it something that, the fact

3 that she is wearing these underpants designed

4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and

5 I will give you a minute to think about it

6 because I know it is tough to try to pin

7 down a couple of months of casual

8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any

9 conversations with her concerning the fact

10 that she is wearing underwear that is just

11 too large for her?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it

14 was, if it had caught your attention or came

15 to your attention, do you think you might

16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't

17 fit, put something on that fits, that is

18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,

19 had come to your attention --

20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the

21 package had been opened, we made the

22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and

23 use them because, you know, we weren't going

24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,

25 so.



0086

1 I mean, if you have ever seen

2 these little panties, there is not too much

3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm

4 sure even if they were a little bit big,

5 they were special because we got them up

6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they

7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was

8 fine with me.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see

10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?

11 THE WITNESS: No.

12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?

14 And I am not saying --

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

19 help herself to whatever is in there.

0086

20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

22 Jenny.

23 THE WITNESS: Right.

24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

25 JonBenet's bathroom?



0087

1 A. Right.

2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --

7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

8 think I bought them with the intention of

9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

11 together, so I just put them in her, her

12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

13 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time,

14 how old was Jenny?

15 A. I don't know. Probably -- I

16 don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but

17 I don't know exactly how old she was.

18 Q. Would these panties, size wise, be

19 more appropriate for -- is she an older

20 girl?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I assume a larger girl?

23 A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I

24 mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a

25 young woman, but then she was a little girl.



0088

1 Q. How old is she now?

2 A. She is now 15, I believe.

3 Q. So she would have been about 12

4 or somewhere --

5 A. 11.

6 Q. -- 11, 12?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. And based on the, I guess,

9 dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about,

10 these would have been a size appropriate for

11 her?

12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).



(SNIP)



0090

22 Q. And do they have age groups or

23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old

24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old

25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that



0091

1 way too?

2 A. I never paid any attention if

3 they do.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.

5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it

6 this way. Did you say you bought more than

7 one set of Bloomi's?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. Why is it that you remember

12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of

13 1996?

14 A. Because --



(SNIP)



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