michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today —

[chanting]

michael barbaro

In Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands of protesters remain in the streets, even after city officials said they would suspend the controversial law that prompted the protests in the first place. Why they still don’t trust their government.

archived recording Democracy in Hong Kong! Democracy in Hong Kong!

michael barbaro

It’s Monday, June 17. Austin, where does all of this begin?

austin ramzy

The story begins a year ago in February of 2018.

michael barbaro

Austin Ramzy covers Hong Kong for The Times.

austin ramzy

A young couple from Hong Kong, they went from Hong Kong to Taiwan for a trip over Valentine’s Day. And after this trip, he returns, and she doesn’t. Her family is incredibly worried, and they contact Hong Kong police. Hong Kong police contact Taiwan police. The police in Taiwan begin looking into it. They find the hotel where the couple stayed. They find footage of him coming out with a large suitcase. And the Hong Kong police interview him again, and he admits to killing her. And the Taiwan police find her body near a train station, hidden in some weeds.

archived recording [SPEAKING CANTONESE]

austin ramzy

There’s not a lot of homicide in Hong Kong or Taiwan, and so it’s of interest in the local press, but it’s not a huge incident beyond sort of the local crime pages. But it emerges quickly that there’s a problem in prosecuting him. The murder itself, under Hong Kong law, can’t be prosecuted here because it took place in Taiwan. So the family of the deceased woman, they send letters to the Hong Kong government. They plead with the chief executive, the top official here in Hong Kong, to do something to work this out.

michael barbaro

And what do they want?

austin ramzy

They want him to face justice. They want him to face trial for the murder of their daughter. It can’t happen in Hong Kong. It has to happen in Taiwan. But under the existing system, there’s no way for him to be sent there. Hong Kong does not have an extradition agreement with Taiwan, so basically Hong Kong has to rewrite its law.

michael barbaro

And how does the government in Hong Kong respond to this request from the parents?

austin ramzy

By proposing changes to its extradition law, a very broad series of changes that deal with not just Taiwan but every single place that it does not currently have an extradition agreement with, including mainland China.

michael barbaro

And why is that significant?

austin ramzy

Hong Kong is part of China, but it is, at the same time, separate.

archived recording [MUSIC]

austin ramzy

Hong Kong is a former British colony that returned to Chinese control in 1997 under an agreement called “one country, two systems.”

archived recording Welcome to the handover ceremony for Hong Kong held jointly by the government of the United Kingdom and the government of the People’s Republic of China.

austin ramzy

So it is part of the People’s Republic of China but still operates its own semiautonomous system. It has its own local government, has its own local courts, control of its own economy.

archived recording I should like on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen to express our thanks and good wishes to all the people of Hong Kong who have been such staunch and special friends over so many generations.

michael barbaro

And this law appears to threaten that in some way.

austin ramzy

That’s right. People in Hong Kong are very worried that this agreement would allow mainland Chinese prosecutors to reach into Hong Kong and go after criminal suspects in a way that they could never do before.

michael barbaro

And Austin, how warranted is this fear in Hong Kong?

austin ramzy

It’s quite warranted. In the past few years, particularly under the leadership of Xi Jinping, who’s expanded his control over China’s authoritarian government, there are cases — there are specific incidents where the mainland authorities have reached across the border and grabbed people. In 2015, there was a case that’s known as the Causeway Bay booksellers.

archived recording Sandwiched between a pharmacy and a nail salon and up a cramped stairwell is Causeway Bay Books, which was closed today.

austin ramzy

This bookshop and the publisher that ran it did this great business of selling these gossipy tales of the Chinese leadership, things that would not be allowed in mainland China, but also things that people from mainland China were quite interested in. So they would come to Hong Kong and buy these books filled with gossip about Chinese leaders.

archived recording This book talks about Madame Peng Liyuan’s private life. She’s China’s first lady. This title predicts the downfall of China’s president, Xi Jinping.

austin ramzy

And the mainland authorities decided that they did not like this, and so they went after this book company. And there were five people who were detained. Some of them were detained in mainland China. One of them was kidnapped in Thailand and brought back to China, and another one disappeared off the streets of Hong Kong and ended up in Chinese custody.

archived recording (speaker 1) Why is the case of this missing bookseller so important? archived recording (speaker 2) Well, I think it concerns the basic security and safety of Hong Kong people.

austin ramzy

In 2017, a mainland Chinese billionaire who’s living in Hong Kong was taken from a hotel and is taken across the border and is still in custody in China and, you know, hasn’t been seen since. So people see this as a Trojan horse and a means by which the mainland authorities can further increase control and reach out and grab people here in ways that they never could before.

michael barbaro

So basically the fear is that anybody doing anything in Hong Kong that might offend China or cross somebody in the Communist Party there could now be vulnerable to extradition to mainland China to face charges — or not charges, but just disappear.

austin ramzy

Right. People here have fears that anything they do here could somehow lead them to get in trouble and have to face justice from mainland authorities.

michael barbaro

So what happens?

austin ramzy

So the government proposes this legislation in February, and immediately concerns are raised about mainland China. And so resistance begins to build towards this legislation. People begin writing petitions. There are some small protests. Despite all this opposition, the Hong Kong government pushes forward, and it says that it will continue pursuing this legislation for the family of the woman who was killed in Taiwan. But Taiwan comes out and says that it is no longer interested in pursuing extradition because the way Hong Kong has written the law, Taiwan feels that its sovereignty will be undermined.

michael barbaro

Hmm. So the stated reason for this law has kind of collapsed. They’re not going to get justice for this woman’s family.

austin ramzy

That’s right. That’s right. And that really adds to suspicions in Hong Kong. People are saying, well, if the man accused of killing this woman is not going to be extradited, why is the government pushing forward on this? And it really sort of exacerbates the fears of everyone. And so resistance to this legislation builds and see more and more protests. There was a protest by a few thousand lawyers who come out and march silently. And on the afternoon of June 9 —

archived recording [SPEAKING CANTONESE]

austin ramzy

— people begin gathering in a park on Hong Kong Island and plan to march to the government headquarters.

archived recording You can hear the roar of the protesters all around Causeway Bay, this major district — commercial district here in Hong Kong. They are firmly opposed to this bill. They say —

austin ramzy

It’s quite stunning to see how many people really show up. I caught the protests at about the midpoint as the leaders were walking through —

archived recording [SPEAKING CANTONESE]

austin ramzy

— and then followed the protest to the government offices, interviewed people, and spoke with people there —

archived recording Mainland China use all sorts of ways to exercise the so-called dictatorship in Hong Kong to kidnap the people they treat as enemy.

austin ramzy

— and then sort of looped back to the point where I caught the protest leaders coming through. And there’s just a sea of people still pouring through. And I went by that same point another three hours later, and there was still a sea of people pouring through. In the end, the protest organizers estimate that there was more than 1 million people who joined the protest, which would be almost one in every seven people in Hong Kong.

michael barbaro

That’s kind of staggering.

austin ramzy

It is. It is. And it’s summer in Hong Kong, so it’s not a pleasant time to be standing on a street for hours on end.

archived recording — that the temperatures here this day are over 30 degrees Celsius, and yet — that’s hot — that has not stopped the elderly, the senior citizens, the families of young children and infants who feel so opposed to this legislation.

austin ramzy

People want to be there. They are also very conscious of being with the march for the entire length to make sure that they’re counted, to make sure that they’re seen. In years past, the police would count the number of people who left the park to join protest marches, and so people are really conscious of showing that they were with the protest for the entire distance.

archived recording [SPEAKING CANTONESE]

michael barbaro

And what happens next?

austin ramzy

And so this protest ends. There are still hundreds of thousands of people on the street, but the protest ends Sunday evening. And the government releases a statement and says protest is one of the freedoms that are protected in Hong Kong, but we’re not backing down. We saw your protest, but we’re not changing, and we’re going to continue to push through this legislation. It’s late on a Sunday evening. The statement came out at something like 11:00 p.m. Many people have gone home. There is still a contingent of young protesters who are very upset about the government’s statement, and they try and push through to the legislature. They began pushing barriers, directly confronting police around the legislature.

[crowd yelling]

austin ramzy

Riot police charge at protesters, and there are clashes that continue through the night. I was out until well after 2:00 a.m. watching as police pushed protesters and then protesters pushed back. And it was clear that there was quite a lot of anger over the government’s response and that people were not going to back down. And the attitude of the government is embodied in a woman named Carrie Lam, who’s the chief executive, the top official in Hong Kong.

archived recording (carrie lam) This bill is not initiated by the Central People’s Government.

austin ramzy

She pushed for this law all along.

archived recording (carrie lam) We were doing it, and we are still doing it, out of our clear conscience and our commitment to Hong Kong.

austin ramzy

And this week she described herself as like the mother of Hong Kong.

archived recording (carrie lam) [SPEAKING CANTONESE]

austin ramzy

And like a mother, she can’t give in to all the whims of her children, and so she must say no to the demands of the protesters to stop this bill.

archived recording (carrie lam) [SPEAKING CANTONESE]

austin ramzy

And that leads to greater anger towards the government, and the street protests continue. There are clashes between protesters, and police use pepper spray, and they use batons and begin trying to drive out protesters from around the legislature, from around the government offices.

[crowd yelling]

austin ramzy

And you can see very organized and savvy young protesters who come up with a variety of means of resisting the pepper spray. They deploy umbrellas. And when police launched tear gas canisters, there are scenes of young protesters pouring water on the canister to keep the tear gas from coming out. And so on Saturday, Carrie Lam, the chief executive, finally says —

archived recording (carrie lam) After repeated internal deliberations over the last two days, I now announce that the government has decided to suspend the legislative amendment exercise, restart our communication with all sectors of society, do more explanation work, and listen to different views of society.

austin ramzy

— that she will suspend this legislation. But the Hong Kong people remain deeply suspicious of their government.

archived recording Democracy now! Democracy in Hong Kong! Democracy in Hong Kong! Democracy in Hong Kong! Democracy in Hong Kong!

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Austin, I guess I’m pretty confused about one key thing here. Why would the Hong Kong government do anything that threatens its own citizens? If the people of this city are calling this law a Trojan horse, why would the Trojan horse come from within Hong Kong rather than from China?

austin ramzy

The Hong Kong government is a very unique creature. And Carrie Lam, the chief executive, she often says that she has two masters, people of Hong Kong and China’s central government. And she’s not directly elected by the people of Hong Kong. She’s essentially selected by the government in Beijing, and she answers to them. They’re her boss. And so many people in Hong Kong feel, in cases like this, the government is not representing them. It’s representing the interests of mainland China.

michael barbaro

So one view of this would be that the Hong Kong government knowingly passed a law that would allow its citizens to be more easily extradited to China, and it used this murder and Taiwan as an excuse to do so.

austin ramzy

That’s right. That’s a fear among many protesters here. The government said on Saturday that it would suspend the extradition law, but people turned out again on Sunday, and organizers said Sunday evening that there were nearly 2 million people who turned out to the protest, so almost double the number that came out to protest one week ago. And I spoke with several of them today.

archived recording (austin ramzy) So if you could tell us about when you first learned about the bill and what —

austin ramzy

One, Amos Yip, an 18-year-old about to graduate from high school next week, said to me that what they want is not just the legislation suspended, but they want it permanently withdrawn.

archived recording (amos yip) It’s not enough. We need to stop this, because she will continue to force the passing of this bill very soon if she doesn’t stop this. archived recording (austin ramzy) That’s why you came out today? archived recording (amos yip) Yep.

austin ramzy

Ultimately, they don’t trust the government, and they feel that it could reintroduce this law or ask the legislature to vote on it at any point during the next year. And so they only feel safe if the law is completely off the table.

archived recording (amos yip) Political wave that we are facing is not only this — about this bill. It’s the Hong Kong people rising up against their government, because the government has been not listening to us for a very, very long period of time. And this after the Umbrella Movement —

michael barbaro

And Austin, where does that leave us, in your mind? What do these protests and the fact that they seem to be having some influence on the Hong Kong government — and by extension, it would seem, on China — what does that tell us about the status of Hong Kong in the era of Xi Jinping?

austin ramzy

By coming out in such huge numbers, the people of Hong Kong have been able to slow or temporarily block this legislation. But in the era of Xi Jinping, we know that these pressures are not going to go away, and that plays into fears here that Xi Jinping wields greater and greater control over all of China, that Hong Kong and Hong Kong’s government is aiding an effort to slowly erode Hong Kong’s uniqueness so that the difference between the city and the rest of China will be nonexistent. And so people in Hong Kong know that they may have slowed this bit of legislation, but they will have to continue turning up in huge numbers for years to come if they want to protect Hong Kong’s unique identity.

michael barbaro

Right, if they have any hope of actually protecting that unique identity.

austin ramzy

That’s right. There is this fear that, in the current climate with Xi Jinping in Beijing, that the people of Hong Kong are fighting a losing battle, but they’re not ready to surrender just yet.

michael barbaro

Austin, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

austin ramzy

Thank you, Michael.

michael barbaro

On Sunday afternoon, Hong Kong’s chief executive, Carrie Lam, apologized for letting down the city’s residents, but said nothing about withdrawing the extradition law. A statement issued by her office said that Lam, quote, “promises that she will take on criticisms in the most sincere and humble way, striving to improve and serve the general public.” We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (chris wallace) Two questions — how certain are you that Iran was responsible for these attacks, and do you have more evidence that you can share with us? archived recording (mike pompeo) Well, Chris, it’s unmistakable what happened here.

michael barbaro

On Sunday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said there is more evidence that proves the Trump administration’s claim that Iran was responsible for last week’s attacks on oil tankers in the Gulf of Oman.

archived recording (mike pompeo) These were attacks by the Islamic Republic of Iran on commercial shipping, on the freedom of navigation, with a clear intent to deny transit through the strait.

michael barbaro

The accusations and the possibility that they could trigger military retaliation from the U.S. have prompted demands for specific evidence from the Trump administration. So far, the White House has cited a single video apparently showing Iranians in a patrol boat removing an unexploded mine from one of the tankers.

archived recording (mike pompeo) There’s no doubt. The intelligence committee has lots of data, lots of evidence. The world will come to see much of it.

michael barbaro

But during an interview with “Fox News Sunday,” Pompeo declined to specify the additional evidence.

archived recording (mike pompeo) But the American people should rest assured we have high confidence with respect to who conducted these attacks as well as a half a dozen other attacks throughout the world over the past 40 days.

michael barbaro