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Sexual harassment and assault are hot topics in our country right now.

On a national level, I enjoy watching pundits discuss these issues, as well as reading what well-respected journalists and celebrities have to say about it. It’s about time we take a closer look at ourselves and how we relate to one another, from intimate settings to public venues.

But there’s a personal layer for me, too. As the mother of two teenage daughters, who are in the throes of dating, I wanted to know about their experiences with masculinity, gender roles, and sexuality in 2017. I was curious if and how the culture has changed since I was dating—which is over 20 years ago. I also wondered what they thought about the #MeToo movement, and if it affects them.

I asked my daughter, Cameron (age 17), to invite her three closest friends (all 17 and 18) for a recorded interview. They agreed. We started with the topic of the “woke misogynist,” a term that raised my eyebrows when I first learned about from Cameron. From there, we traversed the topics of sexism, gender roles, hyper-masculinity, sexual assault, racism, feminism, male entitlement, advocacy, and education.

I am going to forgo my usual impulse to analyze and summarize, either throughout the interview or at the end. I think this interview—edited only for filler talk, cross-talk, and brief diversions—speaks for itself.

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What would you say is the definition of a ‘woke misogynist?’

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Friend One: I think it’s someone who—I read this in an article one time—it’s someone who talks a big game. It’s someone who will go to the Women’s March, and say that they advocate for women, but then will do things in a more intimate setting that are not respectful. And I think without realizing it, they are disrespecting [women and feminism] even if they put up a front of saying that they’re woke.

Say more about the disrespectful things they might do.

Friend One: It can be many things, but specifically, acts of sexual assault that sometimes aren’t talked about as being sexual assault.

Cam: Things they wouldn’t usually classify as sexual assault, but if you look back on it, it was.

Friend One: And whatever makes the female in the situation uncomfortable is not okay at all and it shouldn’t be acted on whatsoever.

Does it feel like manipulation?

Cam: It’s deceiving. A lot of the time, [a male feminist] is really attractive to some girls and women, to have this guy who puts up this front of being woke and super knowledgeable about women and respecting women. When it doesn’t come through in intimate situations, it’s really confusing. And then you can get confused about your feelings about them too. It’s deceiving.

Friend Three: It’s an image thing. I feel like guys will put up this image of ‘I’m into feminism’ and ‘women’s rights’ to gain respect from females, and then do things that are degrading and disrespectful. It barely makes any difference from someone who doesn’t put up that image of feminism—it’s basically no different if they’re both committing the same actions.

Friend Two: Social media adds another layer to it and guys take advantage of that. I would say a good word for teenage boys is manipulative. It’s all a mind game. And for them they just want a reward. And it’s really confusing when they put up a front as if they’re a feminist and then they make these claims and they go against them it doesn’t make much sense.

The social media is manipulative, or they’re using social media to manipulate?

Friend Two: They’re using social media to put up a front about themselves.< Cam: Our friends, or us, we’ll post something [on social media] about our situation or about feminism and some guys will comment ‘Yeah.’

Friend One: Or ‘All guys need to know this.’ But then, What about what happened last month?

Cam: Also, I think it’s just a front they put on in front of women and then they turn around to their guy friends and, ‘Oh, I’m gonna smash,’ or something super degrading and disrespectful.

All: Yeah, yeah.

Friend Three: I think we’ve all experienced being with a big group of guys and they say things that are so inappropriate and they would never say them in front of girls—it’s like a censoring thing—but you still shouldn’t say it even if you’re with a group of guys.

Friend One: It’s learning how to really be respectful and not just saying you are. Really following through.

Cam: Have you ever been one-on-one with a guy and he seems really respectful, and then you see him in a group setting and they’re really disrespectful?

All: Yeah, Yeah.

How does that make you feel when you’re in a group of guys and you’re one of the only females and they’re talking like that about women? Is it scary?

All: (Chorus of yeses)

Friend One: It’s invalidating.

Friend Three: Sometimes it feels like being attacked. I think men have so much pride in themselves. Way more than girls. They do not experience many self-esteem issues, I mean, some of them do obviously, but not very much. Last year in class, we had to do a debate. It was three guys and three girls against each other and you had to debate which sex was better. And it was horrible. I literally felt like I was being attacked. The guys would just get so into it. It was [two boys they all know and like, based on reactions] so I knew they didn’t actually mean that, but it was still terrifying. They were throwing words at us, we didn’t know how to respond. It was horrible.

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How do you think boys grow up with so much more self-esteem than girls?

Friend One: I think that our society—I don’t really know, but—I think in high school, boys are always put on a pedestal.

All: Yeah.

Friend Two: They’re portrayed as the hero, they have always been very dominant.

Friend One: It’s this hyper-masculinity…

Friend Two: Everything’s written in the perspective of a male.

Friend One: The male gaze.

All: (Murmured agreement)

Friend Two: There are prescribed gender roles in dating, and I think in high school it just gets amplified and there are certain roles we’re trying to fulfill in such a short amount of time.

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Friend One: There are standards that you have to…you have to have a date to prom, there are so many weird things that you feel inferior if you’re not a part of it.

You used the term hyper-masculinity. What is that?

Friend One: It’s when a guy will over-express his masculinity.

Others: Like man-splaining.

Friend One: Yeah, I’ll use a specific example. One time, I was talking about this soccer game. And I said, ‘The refs were so unfair, it was terrible.’ And then this guy, who wasn’t even at the soccer game, was like, ‘Well actually, in soccer…’ and started listing the rules. And I was like, ‘I know that, you don’t have to tell me that. I’m very aware.’ They explain because they feel they have to, it’s condescending.

When I was dating, some of the criticism we heard was that, ‘girls never like the good guys. They always like the bad boys.’ But what I’m hearing you all say is that what you find attractive is this ‘good guy.’ Would you say that that’s true?

Cameron: I feel like feminism is bigger than it was in your generation. It’s expanded and grown. Now that it’s grown, those ‘bad guys’—how they’re portrayed in movies, not caring and stuff like that—it’s just not attractive to me.

It isn’t attractive to any of you?

All: No, no.

Cam: And now, since sexual assault is more prevalent—well, not that it’s more prevalent, but it’s gotten more attention—I want to date someone I can trust, where I know that that’s not going to happen to me.

Would you say that that’s true whether you’re looking for someone in the short term, for a date, versus a long-term boyfriend? Do your standards change, depending on what you’re looking for from them?

Friend Two: I feel like it’s hard to have standards, because the guys who will go for you—that’s who you go for. For girls, it’s really hard to pick out a boy that you like. You have to play a waiting game.

Cam: We never go to any guys.

Friend Two: It’s so hard to just pick out a boy you’d want to be with.

Friend Three: It’s the fear of rejection, if they reject you, they’re going to talk to all their friends and be like, “This girl came on to me, and like ewww.”

Cam: Any boys that any of us have had relations with came on to us.

Friend One: For sure.

Cam: I don’t think any of us have ever…

Friend Two: I’ve made initiatives, but nothing big.

All: No, no, me neither.

Friend Two: I’ve always waited. I’m too scared to…

Friend One: What if he tells his guy friends?

Friend Three: What if he thinks I’m crazy?

Friend One: Get called a bitch.

So, the feminism movement hasn’t helped you out in that area much, has it? I thought we were moving into a situation where women could ask guys out too.

Friend One: I think that’s true in some cases, but I don’t know if it’s just our high school, or high school culture in general, but it’s the boy who goes for the girl. And that’s part of the system that is so weird and messed up. It almost has to be that way.

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It’s very patriarchal.

All: Yeah, yeah.

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What does that feel like, that moment when you realize that this guy is not what you thought he was?

Friend One: It’s pretty bad. It sucks.

Friend Two: I’d say it sucks but after the fact, speaking from my own experience, I think it’s made me better as a person. And it’s made me more open-minded, I can see people, I’m not as naive. I definitely can see through people now, can see their true intentions, I’m more aware of that.

Cam: You’re able to detect, pick out better guys. You learn, definitely, no regrets for anything.

Friend One: Every experience is a growing experience.

Friend Three: It makes you realize what you deserve. You look back on the experience—he treated me so badly—and nobody deserves that. You realize which boys are good guys.

Are there any red flags that show up for you, that you would want people to know about?

Friend Three: The crowd they hang out with.

Friend One: They way they talk, even as small as the words they choose, when referring to you. If they’re different around their friends, or even your friends.

Cam: How they treat your friends.

Friend Two: If they use derogatory terms, they can’t be a good person. They need to be educated or something.

Friend Three: Language is a big thing.

Cam: All of our good guy friends, we’re friends with them because I’ve never heard them say anything bad, they don’t use words like pussy, they don’t do that.

Friend Three: And if they did, we’ve educated them. Like [boy’s name] used to be horrible with that, and [his friends] had to teach him. And now he’s fine, very well educated.

How did he respond to being corrected?

Friend Three: He was defensive at first. This is what [another guy friend] told me. That he was defensive, so his guy friends had to talk to him multiple times, and then he was fine. It’s definitely the masculinity thing. He thought he was right. He had that mindset that he was right.

Cam: I’ve had one-on-one conversations with him and he’s fine with me but I’ve also heard him talk to [another guy] when he didn’t think I was there, and some of the things made me realize they put on a front in front of their friends.

Friend Three: He’s a prime example of a woke misogynist.

All: Yeah, yeah.

Friend One: During the musical, I can remember hearing things that boys would say, when I would do ‘Big Spender’…

Friend Three: Yeah, I was in the audience, I heard it all.

Friend One: They would say things about me, about how I was dancing, it was awful. It didn’t feel good.

You were talking about being able to scope it out, would you say through these experiences you have developed an intuition that sees beyond the words and the veil?

Friend Two: Yeah, intuition is a good word to use. It’s just, you know what’s going to happen. It’s a routine. It’s all the same. We’re seniors in high school, I’ve gone through the same thing every single year of high school, just a little bit different, so you can see what’s ahead.

Do you expect it to stay the same in college?

Friend Two: I’m hoping it changes.

Friend Three: I feel like people start to mature in college, senior year of high school is where they finally start maturing.

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You said once that a sign of a woke misogynist is the more they talked about how feminist they were, the more likely…

Friend Three: Yeah, if they bring it up a lot.

Cam: Oh, yeah, if they bring it up, when it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about, or anything around them, they’re just trying to show off. The same thing goes for racism. Unless a situation calls for it people wouldn’t just randomly bring it up. If they bring it up a lot, they’re definitely amping themselves.

Do you think from the perspective of the guys, do you think they know they are doing this? Are they aware?

Cam: Most of the time they don’t know that they’re sexually assaulting you, or not being respectful.

Friend Three: They’re unaware.

Cam: Yeah, they amp themselves, they think they’re a feminist, they think they’re being respectful, even though I’m feeling uncomfortable, but they don’t know unless we communicate that with them.

Friend One: It’s hard because then the responsibility of telling them not to be a jerk falls on us when it really shouldn’t.

Are you finding more men starting to speak out in that instance, instead of you having to say, ‘hey, you’re being a jerk,’ another guy steps in and says that?

Friend One: I think there are a lot of people like that at school that are educated on this kind of stuff.

Others: Yeah, I think so.

Do you see an intersection with the #MeToo and the woke misogyny culture? In other words, do you think that as the #MeToo movement continues to grow, it can help heal this too?

Cam: Well, I just had a weird connection. The #MeToo movement is people speaking out about sexual assault that they haven’t previously talked about and I think that’s causing these men say, ‘Oh, wait, have I done that?’ So I think, for people who don’t understand that they’re sexually assaulting people, when they think they are doing fine, it feels like an attack on them.

Yeah, it’s making men uncomfortable. Nationally, men are coming out, I write about this, and they write back to me, saying ‘we’re just tired of men getting dumped on.’

All: (Surprised laughter)

Friend Two: Sorry, what??

Cam: Are you kidding? Is that a joke?

Friend Three: You sexually assault a girl and you’re trying to defend yourself?!

Well, they think of themselves as a good guy. So these are people who are unwilling to ask, have I ever done anything that might have been misconstrued. Yeah, maybe it wasn’t rape but was abusive, manipulative.

Cam: It doesn’t matter if it’s not rape, if you’re uncomfortable, you’re uncomfortable.

Friend Two: If it’s forcible, it’s forcible. That’s it.

I think one thing men don’t understand is that they are bigger than we are. And they forget that.

All: Yeah.

Friend Two: There’s a dominance thing, both physically and mentally. When you’re with a guy, people say, why didn’t you just tell him to stop. Oh, I don’t know, would you tell a bear, to like, stop?

All: (laughter)

Friend Two: But it’s scary. You don’t know what to do in that situation. Especially with someone who is more experienced than you, maybe older, it’s easy for guys to take advantage. You just want to please them.

All: Yeah.

Or get out of the situation?

All: Yeah.

Friend One: Just make it okay.

Friend Two: And a lot of people want to do that without making big deal out of it.

Friend Three: Yeah, they don’t want to be labeled.

Cam: They don’t want that attention.

Friend One: The guy will say she’s crazy, she lied about it, she’s making it up, I didn’t do that.

Friend Two: And they’ll probably believe the guy. In history we see that, most guys get off pretty easy.

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So what would you say, in regards to the #MeToo movement, now that women are being believed, how do you feel about a grey area or what if a woman accuses a man wrongly? Are you worried about that at all? Do you feel like we are risking going too far in the other direction?

All: No, no.

Cam: I wouldn’t make that up for attention, that just doesn’t make sense.

Friend Two: I don’t think anybody makes it up. I don’t think that’s something we need to worry about.

Friend Three: Most people are scared to say anything, so…

Friend Two: Yeah, let alone to lie about that, to have all that attention.

So, not a lot of reward for doing that.

Friend One: Yeah, it takes more bravery than anything.

Going back to calling people out, you mentioned [boys name], and that sounded like—would you say that was a success story?

Friend Three: Well, I wasn’t calling anyone out, personally, [his friends] educated him.

Friend Two: Well, I had an experience where it didn’t work out. So last year, on the track team, I was the captain. There were these freshman boys. They constantly undermined my authority. I tried to make them stop but they would always talk to me about my sex life. They knew my ex-boyfriend so they would always ask me about our sexual experience, and I would say, ‘This is inappropriate, I’m your captain, you’re supposed to respect me.’ They were two years younger than I was, but since they were boys, they wouldn’t stop. And I told my coaches. And they didn’t do anything about it. They said, ‘Boys will be boys.’ And those are the exact words that were said to me, and I didn’t know what to do about it. I told my parents, but also I didn’t want to make a scene, because I am the captain, and I don’t want to kick four kids off the team because of this. What am I supposed to do?

It’s unbelievable to me that in 2017, people would still say, “Boys will be boys.”

Friend Two: And both of my head coaches are males. I had no advocacy. I wish I had gone to one of the female coaches, but I didn’t think about that at the time.

And she may not have done anything either! Women, too, support the male entitlement culture and subscribe to it.

Cam: I’ve been with guys whether personally or in a group and I’ve called them out on some things, and some people ignore what I’m saying. Or, some say, ‘Oh, my bad, my bad,’ but they just go back to it. They’ll apologize, but they don’t really care. It’s never really been that successful. Unless you’re dating someone, then you can really [punches fist into hand] but I don’t know.

Friend One: That’s a very good example of a woke misogynist right there. We say, ‘Hey, that’s not okay.’ They say, ‘Oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry,’ and then turn to their friend and say, ‘Oh, she’s a bitch, she’s crazy, did you hear what she just said to me?’ That’s a good example of what happens.

So there’s male entitlement here, and male privilege. Do you think this issue extends to race?

All: Yes.

Friend Two: Well, when you were talking earlier about if women lied about whether they had been raped or sexually assaulted, that reminded me of how white women would accuse black men of raping them, and then they [the black men] would be lynched. That’s what I thought of. This can be looked at in a lot of different ways. And also, men can be sexually assaulted. And that’s also something to think about. It’s such a cis-gendered society we live in, and there are so many different, more complicated layers, but none of them are talked about. They’re all just waiting under the surface for people to erupt when someone says something triggering. It’s like we’re walking on eggshells in our society because we don’t understand each other and don’t make an effort to.

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What can parents do, to protect their daughters and educate their sons?

Friend Two: Demand respect.

Friend One: Educating sons is a really important piece.

Friend Three: It has to be talked about in school. I never learned anything about sexual assault, especially in middle school, and that’s a defining moment. You need to teach them that.

All: For sure.

Cam: And also, we don’t learn a lot about safe sex in our classrooms either.

Friend Three: We have sex ed in 8th grade.

Friend One: Yeah, but we don’t even talk about how to have safe sex. That’s just talking about what happens during sex.

Cam: Consent was never taught.

All: Yeah.

Friend Two: Other organizations and influences taught us about consent, but not through the education system. So there are kids around the country, around the world, who just don’t know what that is.

Friend Three: We’re super lucky that we go to a liberal school, and we have [social justice groups]—that’s so crucial. I think every school should have it, we learn so much. That’s the main reason people at our school know about these things, like white allies, and so many different things.

Friend Three: It’s students educating other students. It’s all student led. Teachers never teach these things.

And parents don’t either?

All: No, not really, not usually.

Cam: Also, about educating girls, it’s not about teaching them how to stay away from boys, it should be educating them on what they deserve.

Friend Two: And teaching women how to respect themselves, before they put a man before themselves.

Cam: You should boost your daughters’ confidence a lot because it’s going to get taken down in high school, whether that’s by herself or guys or other students or other girls. Amp your daughter.

Friend Two: Also, women are taught to not go for higher income jobs, they’re taught to stay at home, all those basic prescribed gender roles are still really prevalent in our society. They change, but they’re still there.

It’s hard to believe people would act like something they’re not just to get what they want. Why do you think they do it?

Friend Two: Social standings, I guess. If you’re a feminist, you’re seen as “woke” and a nice person.

Friend One: You automatically have ‘good guy’ written on you.

Cam: There are other characteristics, too, that go along with acting woke.

Friend Two: Like, you’re understanding, and you’re respectful.

Cam: You’re wise, you’re smart.

Friend Two: It’s easy to claim yourself as a feminist but it’s hard to act on it.

Friend One: Really act on it. Not just go to a march and post a picture, and be, ‘Go women! Look at my pink hat.’

Cam: That’s the same thing with race, too. We all went to a march after school hours, and we realized how much lower, in terms of numbers, than it was for marches that go on during school hours because of people who just want to skip.

Friend One: Or they don’t want to give up their Friday night to advocate.

Cam: And that’s the same thing that goes with women, too.

Friend One: You’re an advocate when it’s convenient.

Do you think these men, these woke misogynists, might be going through a transition, where they do want to be these things, and they don’t know how, and they don’t have the support network in our culture either to really know what that looks like? I’m not trying to let them off the hook, but is this part of what it looks like when a culture wakes up? That there’s this middle ground, where “I’d really like to be these things, but the culture sweeps me up and I get caught in it?”

Friend Two: It depends on the boy and their intentions, but I think people are oblivious to what they do, how it affects other people. It’s easy to be selfish, and just think about how things affect you.

Friend One: I think it’s what they’re taught. It depends, but I think growing up as a male, you learn dominance, I think, just by existing. If you’re a white man, you’re good.

Cam: Also, I don’t think any of them, think, ‘Oh, I’m gonna get this girl, I’m going to act like a feminist,’ I think they genuinely think they are feminist. And then, they’re not. But sometimes they do use the opportunity to talk about it in front of girls.

Will this change anytime soon?

Cam: Not in our lifetime.

All: No, probably not, not that much.

Friend Two: Hopefully though, it will.

Cam: It has gotten better though.

Friend Two: Marriage equality in Australia!

Yep, and then Trump in the white house.

All: Yuck.

Any final words?

Friend Two: A relationship is a two-way thing, it should be pleasurable to both parties. And if it’s not, then it’s an unhealthy relationship in my definition.

Cam: It should not just be for the guy’s pleasure and happiness.

All: (Agreement)

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At the end of our formal interview, the girls talked freely amongst themselves about how good it felt to talk about this topic so extensively. They lament that too often when/if feminism comes up in school, boys take over the conversation with, “Well, actually…” or “This is what I think…”

Friend Two shares one last story; I turn the recorder back on to catch it: I remember this one time when [guy’s name] said, ‘Girls do worse on the ACT when they’re on their period.’ I got up in the middle of the class and said, ‘I got my period in the middle of the ACT and I got my best score.’ Guys, you can’t speak for women, that’s not your job.

Cam: And that’s the same thing for race, too, like white allies, you’re there for support and to listen. But guys can’t speak for women.

[Mic Drop]

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