inaltoasinistra



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Full MemberActivity: 138Merit: 100 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 03, 2015, 06:24:39 AM #101 Quote from: Adlai on July 03, 2015, 02:39:56 AM Quote from: coinchip on June 28, 2015, 05:17:28 PM



The rates in the orderbook are really low now. Maybe this is where the market will end up but I also suspect some people are offering really low rates because they believe in Joinmarket and want to provide early-on liquidity. This is counterproductive though because it discourages investors from joining. When a prospective investor sees that there is 140 BTC at 0.03% there is no reason for them to offer 100 BTC at a higher (normal?) rate.



On other topics

Bear in mind that the advertised rates are per transaction. If you average one transaction per day at 0.03%, that's a monthly return closer to 1%. It's not yet clear what frequency individual investors can expect, but we've started working on a tool for detecting likely Joinmarket activity in the blockchain, and guessing the earned fees.

Bear in mind that the advertised rates are per transaction. If you average one transaction per day at 0.03%, that's a monthly return closer to 1%. It's not yet clear what frequency individual investors can expect, but we've started working on a tool for detecting likely Joinmarket activity in the blockchain, and guessing the earned fees. After 2 days without transactions the makers lower the fees, thats it. A good integration to some client could increase the bid https://www.bitrated.com/inaltoasinistra

waxwing



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Sr. MemberActivity: 469Merit: 250 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 07, 2015, 06:21:32 AM #103 Quote from: inaltoasinistra on July 03, 2015, 06:24:39 AM Quote from: Adlai on July 03, 2015, 02:39:56 AM Quote from: coinchip on June 28, 2015, 05:17:28 PM



The rates in the orderbook are really low now. Maybe this is where the market will end up but I also suspect some people are offering really low rates because they believe in Joinmarket and want to provide early-on liquidity. This is counterproductive though because it discourages investors from joining. When a prospective investor sees that there is 140 BTC at 0.03% there is no reason for them to offer 100 BTC at a higher (normal?) rate.



On other topics

Bear in mind that the advertised rates are per transaction. If you average one transaction per day at 0.03%, that's a monthly return closer to 1%. It's not yet clear what frequency individual investors can expect, but we've started working on a tool for detecting likely Joinmarket activity in the blockchain, and guessing the earned fees.

Bear in mind that the advertised rates are per transaction. If you average one transaction per day at 0.03%, that's a monthly return closer to 1%. It's not yet clear what frequency individual investors can expect, but we've started working on a tool for detecting likely Joinmarket activity in the blockchain, and guessing the earned fees.

After 2 days without transactions the makers lower the fees, thats it. A good integration to some client could increase the bid

I agree; after the first few weeks, it was clear that this was the dynamic. A significant steady flow of 'users' (liquidity takers) is almost certainly going to require some kind of wallet integration, and that's a big project. Meanwhile, tech savvy people try it out by setting up yieldgenerator bots and are surprised when there isn't a constant flow of free money And they reduce fees presumably out of impatience.



There are users, even today; but the number is small (and to be honest I may not have a realistic picture, since I am not constantly reducing my fees like it seems others are, so I am probably not seeing almost any of the activity. This is one of the curious things about thinking of JoinMarket as a "service" - it is difficult to see it happening (although with some effort you can get a good idea)).



What "should" the fees be? It has been discussed but I'm of the opinion it's impossible to come up with a model that isn't dominated by its assumptions, so it's probably not worth bothering with.



I agree; after the first few weeks, it was clear that this was the dynamic. A significant steady flow of 'users' (liquidity takers) is almost certainly going to require some kind of wallet integration, and that's a big project. Meanwhile, tech savvy people try it out by setting up yieldgenerator bots and are surprised when there isn't a constant flow of free moneyAnd they reduce fees presumably out of impatience.There are users, even today; but the number is small (and to be honest I may not have a realistic picture, since I am not constantly reducing my fees like it seems others are, so I am probably not seeing almost any of the activity. This is one of the curious things about thinking of JoinMarket as a "service" - it is difficult to see it happening (although with some effort you can get a good idea)).What "should" the fees be? It has been discussed but I'm of the opinion it's impossible to come up with a model that isn't dominated by its assumptions, so it's probably not worth bothering with. PGP fingerprint 2B6FC204D9BF332D062B 461A141001A1AF77F20B (use email to contact)

domob



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LegendaryActivity: 1117Merit: 1116 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 07, 2015, 07:03:22 AM #104 Quote from: waxwing on July 07, 2015, 06:21:32 AM Quote from: inaltoasinistra on July 03, 2015, 06:24:39 AM Quote from: Adlai on July 03, 2015, 02:39:56 AM Quote from: coinchip on June 28, 2015, 05:17:28 PM



The rates in the orderbook are really low now. Maybe this is where the market will end up but I also suspect some people are offering really low rates because they believe in Joinmarket and want to provide early-on liquidity. This is counterproductive though because it discourages investors from joining. When a prospective investor sees that there is 140 BTC at 0.03% there is no reason for them to offer 100 BTC at a higher (normal?) rate.



On other topics

Bear in mind that the advertised rates are per transaction. If you average one transaction per day at 0.03%, that's a monthly return closer to 1%. It's not yet clear what frequency individual investors can expect, but we've started working on a tool for detecting likely Joinmarket activity in the blockchain, and guessing the earned fees.

Bear in mind that the advertised rates are per transaction. If you average one transaction per day at 0.03%, that's a monthly return closer to 1%. It's not yet clear what frequency individual investors can expect, but we've started working on a tool for detecting likely Joinmarket activity in the blockchain, and guessing the earned fees.

After 2 days without transactions the makers lower the fees, thats it. A good integration to some client could increase the bid

I agree; after the first few weeks, it was clear that this was the dynamic. A significant steady flow of 'users' (liquidity takers) is almost certainly going to require some kind of wallet integration, and that's a big project. Meanwhile, tech savvy people try it out by setting up yieldgenerator bots and are surprised when there isn't a constant flow of free money And they reduce fees presumably out of impatience.



There are users, even today; but the number is small (and to be honest I may not have a realistic picture, since I am not constantly reducing my fees like it seems others are, so I am probably not seeing almost any of the activity. This is one of the curious things about thinking of JoinMarket as a "service" - it is difficult to see it happening (although with some effort you can get a good idea)).



What "should" the fees be? It has been discussed but I'm of the opinion it's impossible to come up with a model that isn't dominated by its assumptions, so it's probably not worth bothering with.





I agree; after the first few weeks, it was clear that this was the dynamic. A significant steady flow of 'users' (liquidity takers) is almost certainly going to require some kind of wallet integration, and that's a big project. Meanwhile, tech savvy people try it out by setting up yieldgenerator bots and are surprised when there isn't a constant flow of free moneyAnd they reduce fees presumably out of impatience.There are users, even today; but the number is small (and to be honest I may not have a realistic picture, since I am not constantly reducing my fees like it seems others are, so I am probably not seeing almost any of the activity. This is one of the curious things about thinking of JoinMarket as a "service" - it is difficult to see it happening (although with some effort you can get a good idea)).What "should" the fees be? It has been discussed but I'm of the opinion it's impossible to come up with a model that isn't dominated by its assumptions, so it's probably not worth bothering with.

I think almost zero fees are unavoidable. Since this project is, by definition, a market, there will be competition. And since the cost involved for makers is not very high (a little risk for putting your coins on a server, but not too much since you don't have to trust anyone), I believe that the eventual fee you can earn as investor is tiny. (Even an inflow of more takers when the project is more mature won't help here, since there will also be an inflow of makers.) But I don't think this is a problem. It will help make coinjoins more used in the ecosystem, which is a good thing. And if too small fees turn out to be a problem (i. e., not enough makers willing to provide liquidity), the fees will increase themselves due to market pressure until an equilibrium is reached again. I think almost zero fees are unavoidable. Since this project is, by definition, a, there will be competition. And since the cost involved for makers is not very high (a little risk for putting your coins on a server, but not too much since you don't have to trust anyone), I believe that the eventual fee you can earn as investor is tiny. (Even an inflow of more takers when the project is more mature won't help here, since there will also be an inflow of makers.) But I don't think this is a problem. It will help make coinjoins more used in the ecosystem, which is a good thing. Andtoo small fees turn out to be a problem (i. e., not enough makers willing to provide liquidity), the fees will increase themselves due to market pressure until an equilibrium is reached again.

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waxwing



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Sr. MemberActivity: 469Merit: 250 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 07, 2015, 11:01:37 AM #105 Quote from: domob on July 07, 2015, 07:03:22 AM I believe that the eventual fee you can earn as investor is tiny. (Even an inflow of more takers when the project is more mature won't help here, since there will also be an inflow of makers.)



This is exactly what we hypothesized at the initiation of the project - tiny, close to zero fees. But in a way that dodges the question - how tiny is tiny?



It's a market, so it's not as if we're trying to "fix" the price. But we're all curious where it will settle. My statement above was that I don't think any economic modelling is worthwhile for now, the unknowns are too big. This is exactly what we hypothesized at the initiation of the project - tiny, close to zero fees. But in a way that dodges the question - how tiny is tiny?It's a market, so it's not as if we're trying to "fix" the price. But we're all curious where it will settle. My statement above was that I don't think any economic modelling is worthwhile for now, the unknowns are too big. PGP fingerprint 2B6FC204D9BF332D062B 461A141001A1AF77F20B (use email to contact)

LDA



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NewbieActivity: 87Merit: 0 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 08, 2015, 04:48:55 PM #106 I found it by accident and it's super cool. I would be thankful if you could answer a few questions.



1) I saw a chart with name of wallets of investors and values. Where is it available?



2) Is there a way to see how many coins are happening per day or hour and average value?



3) The script generates a "HD wallet". However on the commands there is no output. What is the output? How many address it generate? For both send and receive or they should be exclusive?



4) Really idiot question, but I see the transactions are with internal wallet, what is the benefit? I mean, internal transactions are not public, right?



5) If we could recover the whole wallet and money with the key, it means that my coins are not with me, instead they are on a third-party server, right? What means if someone hack this system? I mean, what security do we have?



6) In practice, have someone tried to track the coins joined? How hard was it? Was possible?



Thanks.

belcher



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Sr. MemberActivity: 261Merit: 328 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 10, 2015, 11:53:02 AM #107 Quote from: LDA on July 08, 2015, 04:48:55 PM I found it by accident and it's super cool. I would be thankful if you could answer a few questions.



1) I saw a chart with name of wallets of investors and values. Where is it available?



2) Is there a way to see how many coins are happening per day or hour and average value?



3) The script generates a "HD wallet". However on the commands there is no output. What is the output? How many address it generate? For both send and receive or they should be exclusive?



4) Really idiot question, but I see the transactions are with internal wallet, what is the benefit? I mean, internal transactions are not public, right?



5) If we could recover the whole wallet and money with the key, it means that my coins are not with me, instead they are on a third-party server, right? What means if someone hack this system? I mean, what security do we have?



6) In practice, have someone tried to track the coins joined? How hard was it? Was possible?



Thanks.



1) It can be seen by ob-watcher.py script, the same thing can be seen on pages run by volunteers. e.g.



2) Not right now, this will probably be written in the future. See



3) Read this



4)

I think you're talking about tumbler.py

Those are coinjoin transactions back to your internal wallet. They increase the anonymity set.



5) No they are not on a third party server. Your security is your ability to keep your seed secret and computer free from malware.



6) The CoinJoin transactions used by JoinMarket would make that difficult.



7) Is there a way to sign message with JoinMarket?



No, that's not what its for.



8) What about the spv mining fork?



If you use JoinMarket with Bitcoin Core you are not vulnerable, because it only works with 0.10 or above which will follow the correct fork if it happens.

If you don't use Bitcoin Core then JoinMarket will use blockr.io and you'll have to ask them if they run 0.10 nodes or above as recommended.

1) It can be seen by ob-watcher.py script, the same thing can be seen on pages run by volunteers. e.g. http://joinmarket.io/ 2) Not right now, this will probably be written in the future. See https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket/issues/19 3) Read this https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket/wiki/Using-the-JoinMarket-internal-wallet 4)I think you're talking about tumbler.pyThose are coinjoin transactions back to your internal wallet. They increase the anonymity set.5) No they are not on a third party server. Your security is your ability to keep your seed secret and computer free from malware.6) The CoinJoin transactions used by JoinMarket would make that difficult.7)No, that's not what its for.If you use JoinMarket with Bitcoin Core you are not vulnerable, because it only works with 0.10 or above which will follow the correct fork if it happens.If you don't use Bitcoin Core then JoinMarket will use blockr.io and you'll have to ask them if they run 0.10 nodes or above as recommended.

- CoinJoin that people will actually use.

PGP fingerprint: 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129 1HZBd22eQLgbwxjwbCtSjhoPFWxQg8rBd9 JoinMarket - CoinJoin that people will actually use.PGP fingerprint: 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129

LDA



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NewbieActivity: 87Merit: 0 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 11, 2015, 07:21:46 AM #108



Thanks for answer and congrats for nice project.



1) Weird, my ob-watcher.py crash under python. Is the reason that my wallet is without any BTC?



Very cool this site, good to have an idea, I would love to see more people adopting it.



2) If someone is allowed to search blockchain and find tx id of transactions with JoinMarket he/she could follow all transactions and break the anonymity, not?



3) As you see I'm new on this. I looked at your example:



Quote $ python wallet-tool.py wallet.json

Enter wallet decryption passphrase:

[2015/04/23 02:04:13] downloading wallet history

[2015/04/23 02:04:26] blockr sync_unspent took 2.70895719528sec

mixing depth 0 m/0/0/

receive addresses m/0/0/0/

m/0/0/0/000 1JPFmg1RSa2gtzcsow9fBjwdvWPsxcP3eX new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/001 1AaCpeMit59ExfSvP3M3bTnMkhXgecSPeY new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/002 1NmDrVbtk6kfAYbBVo7Miv8eCYHHefZkjs new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/003 1NKitLXm7FdgbHuENvFXRCxVH32N5XXMQ5 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/004 1EwkvF8SrHLh17LKCNQ9w4u4HY2akuzhx3 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/005 1HkHyB8DbZBNvZYwyAutgedaBSsrNUDt7G new 0.00000000 btc

change addresses m/0/0/1/

for mixdepth=0 balance=0.00000000btc

mixing depth 1 m/0/1/

receive addresses m/0/1/0/

m/0/1/0/000 1LQw8K7V2KQePFVscLKiiH1NU2v6KzwdhW new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/001 1EcZ7w1EEb1UK1qWYT6FMLsbRoizFCfAZ7 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/002 1CV7L2b23sEYNhnu35MP9gbzPAD3j3ofgc new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/003 1DMYRugQNJZRQPcAPAYBcE1p9u15VFTkD9 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/004 1CCnPgGhecXmFz8DrB3Wew9kHT1En53Lq new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/005 1LuwwyEv86BV4miaKVScsFxE4rrKngVt8F new 0.00000000 btc

change addresses m/0/1/1/

for mixdepth=1 balance=0.00000000btc

$

My output is a bit different, I have mixing depth 1 to 4 and each has 5 address if I remember well. Is mine wrong?



My understanding is that I should use each of these addresses for both send and receive BTC, right? So, why so many addresses? Use as random as possible increase my anonymity?



Recover a wallet from a bitcoin is a feature that exist on all BTC wallet programs? I'm asking because it's strange to me, if BTC is not centralized and there is no server, suppose that I delete my wallet.json, how can I recover everything again from the 12 words seed? And how do they know that my password mismatch (it should not be stored just locally on my computer)?



4) You are correct. Sorry for dumb question, but what is difference of a internal and real wallet? A wallet is composed of several addresses, right? And an internal wallet? Exist transactions for internal wallets?



5) Got it, thanks. This is the point that I don't understand, to be hones it's the reason of my question of how anyone could recover my wallet with 12 seed words since all is decentralized.



6) Please, don't take me wrong, but difficult is relative. For example, you master the process and understand a lot of BTC. If you are determined, are you able to track someone transactions?



7) I understand. So can I (or should I) use JoinMarket with an wallet software such as Electrum? On my mind it was supposed to be a wallet too. If I need to use both, how do I know when use each?



When I send money to someone via JoinMarket does it display the TX id on the command output?



8 ) Understood. I assume that Bitcoin core is the default, correct? However, if I remember well there is a part of the software that says that use one of them affect privacy / anonymity, right?



On the worst case, suppose that someone was using blockr.io and they are not running 0.10, what happens? Can this person loose his money? Or it will just take more time?



Again, thanks so much and sorry for too much big and dumb questions. I hope they could help other users. Hi belcher,Thanks for answer and congrats for nice project.1) Weird, my ob-watcher.py crash under python. Is the reason that my wallet is without any BTC?Very cool this site, good to have an idea, I would love to see more people adopting it.2) If someone is allowed to search blockchain and find tx id of transactions with JoinMarket he/she could follow all transactions and break the anonymity, not?3) As you see I'm new on this. I looked at your example:My output is a bit different, I have mixing depth 1 to 4 and each has 5 address if I remember well. Is mine wrong?My understanding is that I should use each of these addresses for both send and receive BTC, right? So, why so many addresses? Use as random as possible increase my anonymity?Recover a wallet from a bitcoin is a feature that exist on all BTC wallet programs? I'm asking because it's strange to me, if BTC is not centralized and there is no server, suppose that I delete my wallet.json, how can I recover everything again from the 12 words seed? And how do they know that my password mismatch (it should not be stored just locally on my computer)?4) You are correct. Sorry for dumb question, but what is difference of a internal and real wallet? A wallet is composed of several addresses, right? And an internal wallet? Exist transactions for internal wallets?5) Got it, thanks. This is the point that I don't understand, to be hones it's the reason of my question of how anyone could recover my wallet with 12 seed words since all is decentralized.6) Please, don't take me wrong, but difficult is relative. For example, you master the process and understand a lot of BTC. If you are determined, are you able to track someone transactions?7) I understand. So can I (or should I) use JoinMarket with an wallet software such as Electrum? On my mind it was supposed to be a wallet too. If I need to use both, how do I know when use each?When I send money to someone via JoinMarket does it display the TX id on the command output?8 ) Understood. I assume that Bitcoin core is the default, correct? However, if I remember well there is a part of the software that says that use one of them affect privacy / anonymity, right?On the worst case, suppose that someone was using blockr.io and they are not running 0.10, what happens? Can this person loose his money? Or it will just take more time?Again, thanks so much and sorry for too much big and dumb questions. I hope they could help other users.

belcher



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Sr. MemberActivity: 261Merit: 328 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 11, 2015, 12:43:34 PM #109 Quote from: LDA on July 11, 2015, 07:21:46 AM



Thanks for answer and congrats for nice project.



1) Weird, my ob-watcher.py crash under python. Is the reason that my wallet is without any BTC?



Very cool this site, good to have an idea, I would love to see more people adopting it.



2) If someone is allowed to search blockchain and find tx id of transactions with JoinMarket he/she could follow all transactions and break the anonymity, not?



3) As you see I'm new on this. I looked at your example:



Quote $ python wallet-tool.py wallet.json

Enter wallet decryption passphrase:

[2015/04/23 02:04:13] downloading wallet history

[2015/04/23 02:04:26] blockr sync_unspent took 2.70895719528sec

mixing depth 0 m/0/0/

receive addresses m/0/0/0/

m/0/0/0/000 1JPFmg1RSa2gtzcsow9fBjwdvWPsxcP3eX new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/001 1AaCpeMit59ExfSvP3M3bTnMkhXgecSPeY new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/002 1NmDrVbtk6kfAYbBVo7Miv8eCYHHefZkjs new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/003 1NKitLXm7FdgbHuENvFXRCxVH32N5XXMQ5 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/004 1EwkvF8SrHLh17LKCNQ9w4u4HY2akuzhx3 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/0/0/005 1HkHyB8DbZBNvZYwyAutgedaBSsrNUDt7G new 0.00000000 btc

change addresses m/0/0/1/

for mixdepth=0 balance=0.00000000btc

mixing depth 1 m/0/1/

receive addresses m/0/1/0/

m/0/1/0/000 1LQw8K7V2KQePFVscLKiiH1NU2v6KzwdhW new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/001 1EcZ7w1EEb1UK1qWYT6FMLsbRoizFCfAZ7 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/002 1CV7L2b23sEYNhnu35MP9gbzPAD3j3ofgc new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/003 1DMYRugQNJZRQPcAPAYBcE1p9u15VFTkD9 new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/004 1CCnPgGhecXmFz8DrB3Wew9kHT1En53Lq new 0.00000000 btc

m/0/1/0/005 1LuwwyEv86BV4miaKVScsFxE4rrKngVt8F new 0.00000000 btc

change addresses m/0/1/1/

for mixdepth=1 balance=0.00000000btc

$

My output is a bit different, I have mixing depth 1 to 4 and each has 5 address if I remember well. Is mine wrong?



My understanding is that I should use each of these addresses for both send and receive BTC, right? So, why so many addresses? Use as random as possible increase my anonymity?



Recover a wallet from a bitcoin is a feature that exist on all BTC wallet programs? I'm asking because it's strange to me, if BTC is not centralized and there is no server, suppose that I delete my wallet.json, how can I recover everything again from the 12 words seed? And how do they know that my password mismatch (it should not be stored just locally on my computer)?



4) You are correct. Sorry for dumb question, but what is difference of a internal and real wallet? A wallet is composed of several addresses, right? And an internal wallet? Exist transactions for internal wallets?



5) Got it, thanks. This is the point that I don't understand, to be hones it's the reason of my question of how anyone could recover my wallet with 12 seed words since all is decentralized.



6) Please, don't take me wrong, but difficult is relative. For example, you master the process and understand a lot of BTC. If you are determined, are you able to track someone transactions?



7) I understand. So can I (or should I) use JoinMarket with an wallet software such as Electrum? On my mind it was supposed to be a wallet too. If I need to use both, how do I know when use each?



When I send money to someone via JoinMarket does it display the TX id on the command output?



8 ) Understood. I assume that Bitcoin core is the default, correct? However, if I remember well there is a part of the software that says that use one of them affect privacy / anonymity, right?



On the worst case, suppose that someone was using blockr.io and they are not running 0.10, what happens? Can this person loose his money? Or it will just take more time?



Again, thanks so much and sorry for too much big and dumb questions. I hope they could help other users.

Hi belcher,Thanks for answer and congrats for nice project.1) Weird, my ob-watcher.py crash under python. Is the reason that my wallet is without any BTC?Very cool this site, good to have an idea, I would love to see more people adopting it.2) If someone is allowed to search blockchain and find tx id of transactions with JoinMarket he/she could follow all transactions and break the anonymity, not?3) As you see I'm new on this. I looked at your example:My output is a bit different, I have mixing depth 1 to 4 and each has 5 address if I remember well. Is mine wrong?My understanding is that I should use each of these addresses for both send and receive BTC, right? So, why so many addresses? Use as random as possible increase my anonymity?Recover a wallet from a bitcoin is a feature that exist on all BTC wallet programs? I'm asking because it's strange to me, if BTC is not centralized and there is no server, suppose that I delete my wallet.json, how can I recover everything again from the 12 words seed? And how do they know that my password mismatch (it should not be stored just locally on my computer)?4) You are correct. Sorry for dumb question, but what is difference of a internal and real wallet? A wallet is composed of several addresses, right? And an internal wallet? Exist transactions for internal wallets?5) Got it, thanks. This is the point that I don't understand, to be hones it's the reason of my question of how anyone could recover my wallet with 12 seed words since all is decentralized.6) Please, don't take me wrong, but difficult is relative. For example, you master the process and understand a lot of BTC. If you are determined, are you able to track someone transactions?7) I understand. So can I (or should I) use JoinMarket with an wallet software such as Electrum? On my mind it was supposed to be a wallet too. If I need to use both, how do I know when use each?When I send money to someone via JoinMarket does it display the TX id on the command output?8 ) Understood. I assume that Bitcoin core is the default, correct? However, if I remember well there is a part of the software that says that use one of them affect privacy / anonymity, right?On the worst case, suppose that someone was using blockr.io and they are not running 0.10, what happens? Can this person loose his money? Or it will just take more time?Again, thanks so much and sorry for too much big and dumb questions. I hope they could help other users.

1) No, ob-watcher.py does not require you to have btc in your wallet. In fact it doesnt even require a wallet at all.



2) No, CoinJoins discard unnecessary information which is what improves the privacy. Read this:



3)



Quote My output is a bit different, I have mixing depth 1 to 4 and each has 5 address if I remember well. Is mine wrong?

No, thats right.



Quote My understanding is that I should use each of these addresses for both send and receive BTC, right? So, why so many addresses? Use as random as possible increase my anonymity?

Read this to understand why there are different so-called "mixing levels"



By default the script outputs 5 addresses, although it can output more. It means you could receive 5 different payments at once. Alternatively you could give several addresses to a single person so that your payment cant be tracked by correlating amounts.



Quote Recover a wallet from a bitcoin is a feature that exist on all BTC wallet programs? I'm asking because it's strange to me, if BTC is not centralized and there is no server, suppose that I delete my wallet.json, how can I recover everything again from the 12 words seed? And how do they know that my password mismatch (it should not be stored just locally on my computer)?

Yes, recovery from mnemonic seed exists in most wallets.

In practice you recover it with the instructions here

The password is only used for encrypting the wallet file on your hard disk. You don't need it to recover (this also implies somebody with only your seed can steal your coins)



4) A JoinMarket internal wallet is a kind of real wallet. There is no such thing as fake wallets.



5) It does not rely on a central server, the conversion from mnemonic seed to addresses is a mathematical algorithm. To massively simplify, each word is converted into a number and all the numbers are put together to give a master seed. From that you can generated an unlimited number of private key/address pairs that are always the same if you used the same master seed.



6) Mastery and understanding of bitcoin is not enough to deanonymize JoinMarket transactions. Privacy in bitcoin is a complex topic which I won't go into here, try reading this article to understand more why CoinJoin transactions used by JoinMarket improve privacy



7) JoinMarket is not really meant to be a bitcoin wallet used for receiving and spending like Electrum, Bitcoin Core or Armory. It can be used that way and many people do but it's not optimized for easy usage. In the future there should be an Electrum plugin and Bitcoin Core script which allows you to create private JoinMarket transactions from the GUI of those wallets.



Quote When I send money to someone via JoinMarket does it display the TX id on the command output?

Yes it does.



8) If someone uses blockr.io then that website will know their IP address as well as which addresses belong to them. Obviously this is harmful to privacy, especially as blockr.io is owned by the coinbase.com company which is legally required to collect financial information. 1) No, ob-watcher.py does not require you to have btc in your wallet. In fact it doesnt even require a wallet at all.2) No, CoinJoins discard unnecessary information which is what improves the privacy. Read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CoinJoin 3)No, thats right.Read this to understand why there are different so-called "mixing levels" https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket/wiki/Using-the-JoinMarket-internal-wallet#structure By default the script outputs 5 addresses, although it can output more. It means you could receive 5 different payments at once. Alternatively you could give several addresses to a single person so that your payment cant be tracked by correlating amounts.Yes, recovery from mnemonic seed exists in most wallets.In practice you recover it with the instructions here https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket/wiki/Using-the-JoinMarket-internal-wallet#recover The password is only used for encrypting the wallet file on your hard disk. You don't need it to recover (this also implies somebody with only your seed can steal your coins)4) A JoinMarket internal wallet is a kind of real wallet. There is no such thing as fake wallets.5) It does not rely on a central server, the conversion from mnemonic seed to addresses is a mathematical algorithm. To massively simplify, each word is converted into a number and all the numbers are put together to give a master seed. From that you can generated an unlimited number of private key/address pairs that are always the same if you used the same master seed.6) Mastery and understanding of bitcoin is not enough to deanonymize JoinMarket transactions. Privacy in bitcoin is a complex topic which I won't go into here, try reading this article to understand more why CoinJoin transactions used by JoinMarket improve privacy https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CoinJoin 7) JoinMarket is not really meant to be a bitcoin wallet used for receiving and spending like Electrum, Bitcoin Core or Armory. It can be used that way and many people do but it's not optimized for easy usage. In the future there should be an Electrum plugin and Bitcoin Core script which allows you to create private JoinMarket transactions from the GUI of those wallets.Yes it does.) If someone uses blockr.io then that website will know their IP address as well as which addresses belong to them. Obviously this is harmful to privacy, especially as blockr.io is owned by the coinbase.com company which is legally required to collect financial information.

- CoinJoin that people will actually use.

PGP fingerprint: 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129 1HZBd22eQLgbwxjwbCtSjhoPFWxQg8rBd9 JoinMarket - CoinJoin that people will actually use.PGP fingerprint: 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129

Cryptoman



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Hero MemberActivity: 726Merit: 500 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 13, 2015, 07:17:21 PM

Last edit: July 13, 2015, 08:26:47 PM by Cryptoman #110



Code: $ python wallet-tool.py wallet.json

Enter wallet decryption passphrase:

[2015/07/13 13:35:20] requesting wallet history

[2015/07/13 13:35:34] rpc: ['~/bitcoin-cli', '-datadir=~/.bitcoin', 'getaddressesbyaccount', 'joinmarket-wallet-85993a']

Traceback (most recent call last):

File "wallet-tool.py", line 54, in <module>

common.bc_interface.sync_wallet(wallet)

File "/home/cryptoman/joinmarket/lib/blockchaininterface.py", line 31, in sync_wallet

self.sync_addresses(wallet)

File "/home/cryptoman/joinmarket/lib/blockchaininterface.py", line 388, in sync_addresses

imported_addr_list = json.loads(self.rpc(['getaddressesbyaccount', wallet_name]))

File "/home/cryptoman/joinmarket/lib/blockchaininterface.py", line 365, in rpc

res = subprocess.check_output(self.command_params + args)

File "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 566, in check_output

process = Popen(stdout=PIPE, *popenargs, **kwargs)

File "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 710, in __init__

errread, errwrite)

File "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 1327, in _execute_child

raise child_exception

OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory

$



What file is it looking for? It's obviously finding and decrypting the wallet file OK. I tried creating an account with the name "joinmarket-wallet-85993a" in bitcoind, but that didn't help. RPC is set up properly as far as I can tell.



Thanks.



EDIT: Found the problem. It didn't like the "~/" path. Used the full path "/home/cryptoman/" and it worked fine.

I'm having a little trouble getting joinmarket working with bitcoind (to be honest, I haven't tried it yet with blockr.io). Here's a dump of what happens:What file is it looking for? It's obviously finding and decrypting the wallet file OK. I tried creating an account with the name "joinmarket-wallet-85993a" in bitcoind, but that didn't help. RPC is set up properly as far as I can tell.Thanks. "A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history." --Gandhi

Cryptoman



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Hero MemberActivity: 726Merit: 500 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 15, 2015, 10:03:39 PM #111 How long should it take to send a payment? I tried sending a payment of about 1 BTC, and it just sat there for an hour. Nothing changed in the wallet; all amounts at m/0/0/0/ are unchanged. I did get one interesting message shortly after initiating the payment: nonrespondants = [u'SiegeOfJa']. Did it hang because one of the participants dropped out? "A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history." --Gandhi

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LegendaryActivity: 1256Merit: 1022 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 18, 2015, 06:49:11 PM

Last edit: July 19, 2015, 06:07:15 PM by windpath #113



Got JoinMarket up and running last night using bitcoin 0.11.0 on ubuntu 14.04, couple snags with dependencies (libsodium needs to be manually installed) but other then that it went smoothly.



Ran the Tumbler with defaults, total fees ended up at BTC 0.00196169 or ~$0.54 to tumble 1BTC, not to shabby.



Ran a taint analysis on the final addresses I provided, 1 was totally severed from the original sending address, 2 had some minor taint, but nothing that jumped out.



There was still a connection to the innitial JoinMarket wallet deposit address on all of them.



I ran with the defaults:

Code: python tumbler.py wallet.json [btc_address]

Id like to run another test and try to sever both the original sending address, and the JoinMarket wallet deposit address completely, found this in the source:



Code: #a couple of modes

#im-running-from-the-nsa, takes about 80 hours, costs a lot

#python tumbler.py -a 10 -N 10 5 -c 10 5 -l 50 -M 10 seed 1xxx

#

#quick and cheap, takes about 90 minutes

#python tumbler.py -N 2 1 -c 3 0.001 -l 10 -M 3 -a 1 seed 1xxx

#

#default, good enough for most, takes about 5 hours

#python tumbler.py seed 1xxx

#

#for quick testing

#python tumbler.py -N 2 1 -c 3 0.001 -l 0.1 -M 3 -a 0 seed 1xxx 1yyy



What is "seed"?



I was thinking of trying:

Code: python tumbler.py -a 4 -N 5 3 -C 5 -M 5 wallet.json [btc_address]

Thoughts?



Also would be awesome to be able to provide all the addresses on the command line at once. Edit: looks like you can, I just provided to many on first run.



Again great and important project, excited to follow and contribute if I can...

Great project!Got JoinMarket up and running last night using bitcoin 0.11.0 on ubuntu 14.04, couple snags with dependencies (libsodium needs to be manually installed) but other then that it went smoothly.Ran the Tumbler with defaults, total fees ended up at0.00196169 or ~$0.54 to tumble 1BTC, not to shabby.Ran a taint analysis on the final addresses I provided, 1 was totally severed from the original sending address, 2 had some minor taint, but nothing that jumped out.There was still a connection to the innitial JoinMarket wallet deposit address on all of them.I ran with the defaults:Id like to run another test and try to sever both the original sending address, and the JoinMarket wallet deposit address completely, found this in the source:What is "seed"?I was thinking of trying:Thoughts?Edit: looks like you can, I just provided to many on first run.Again great and important project, excited to follow and contribute if I can...

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Sr. MemberActivity: 261Merit: 328 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 18, 2015, 11:51:04 PM

Last edit: July 19, 2015, 08:01:50 PM by belcher #115 Quote from: windpath on July 18, 2015, 06:49:11 PM



Got JoinMarket up and running last night using bitcoin 0.11.0 on ubuntu 14.04, couple snags with dependencies (libsodium needs to be manually installed) but other then that it went smoothly.



Ran the Tumbler with defaults, total fees ended up at BTC 0.00196169 or ~$0.54 to tumble 1BTC, not to shabby.



Ran a taint analysis on the final addresses I provided, 1 was totally severed from the original sending address, 2 had some minor taint, but nothing that jumped out.



There was still a connection to the innitial JoinMarket wallet deposit address on all of them.



I ran with the defaults:

Code: python tumbler.py wallet.json [btc_address] Great project!Got JoinMarket up and running last night using bitcoin 0.11.0 on ubuntu 14.04, couple snags with dependencies (libsodium needs to be manually installed) but other then that it went smoothly.Ran the Tumbler with defaults, total fees ended up at0.00196169 or ~$0.54 to tumble 1BTC, not to shabby.Ran a taint analysis on the final addresses I provided, 1 was totally severed from the original sending address, 2 had some minor taint, but nothing that jumped out.There was still a connection to the innitial JoinMarket wallet deposit address on all of them.I ran with the defaults:

Sounds good. Glad it worked.



Quote from: windpath on July 18, 2015, 06:49:11 PM



Code: #a couple of modes

#im-running-from-the-nsa, takes about 80 hours, costs a lot

#python tumbler.py -a 10 -N 10 5 -c 10 5 -l 50 -M 10 seed 1xxx

#

#quick and cheap, takes about 90 minutes

#python tumbler.py -N 2 1 -c 3 0.001 -l 10 -M 3 -a 1 seed 1xxx

#

#default, good enough for most, takes about 5 hours

#python tumbler.py seed 1xxx

#

#for quick testing

#python tumbler.py -N 2 1 -c 3 0.001 -l 0.1 -M 3 -a 0 seed 1xxx 1yyy



What is "seed"?[

Id like to run another test and try to sever both the original sending address, and the JoinMarket wallet deposit address completely, found this in the source:What is "seed"?[

Those comments are possibly out of date.



Seed is a kind of brainwallet that was used before wallet files were made. They don't work anymore for mainnet.



Quote from: windpath on July 18, 2015, 06:49:11 PM

Code: python tumbler.py -a 4 -N 5 3 -C 5 -M 5 [btc_address]

Thoughts?



Also would be awesome to be able to provide all the addresses on the command line at once. Edit: looks like you can, I just provided to many on first run.



Again great and important project, excited to follow and contribute if I can...

I was thinking of trying:Thoughts?Edit: looks like you can, I just provided to many on first run.Again great and important project, excited to follow and contribute if I can...

It will probably work. It's likely that tumbling with coinjoin works but nobody really knows.

I assume you've run

Code: python tumbler.py --help so you know what the options mean



For contributions, this page has some useful small projects

https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket/wiki/What-can-I-do-for-JoinMarket%3F



There is also a donation address found on the readme of the github

https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket Sounds good. Glad it worked.Those comments are possibly out of date.Seed is a kind of brainwallet that was used before wallet files were made. They don't work anymore for mainnet.It will probably work. It's likely that tumbling with coinjoin works but nobody really knows.I assume you've runso you know what the options meanFor contributions, this page has some useful small projectsThere is also a donation address found on the readme of the github

- CoinJoin that people will actually use.

PGP fingerprint: 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129 1HZBd22eQLgbwxjwbCtSjhoPFWxQg8rBd9 JoinMarket - CoinJoin that people will actually use.PGP fingerprint: 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129

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NewbieActivity: 2Merit: 0 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 19, 2015, 10:11:44 PM #116



Code: python sendpayment.py -C -N 4 <wallet> 0 <address>

The script put the transaction together, and presented me with the options and a "y/n" prompt. I pressed "y" without paying too much attention and ended up paying some asshole 2.8 BTC to send a little over 5. Which is more than half of the bitcoin controlled by my privkeys.



A couple suggestions:



1. Kick those people from the IRC with 50%+ fees.



2. Present the cjfee in something other than satoshis or have an alert that says you're about to pay an insane amount. I think this project is amazing as well, and I really enjoy using it as my preferred method for coinjoin txs. However I do have one complaint. The other day I was using the sendpayment.py script. The command was exactly:The script put the transaction together, and presented me with the options and a "y/n" prompt. I pressed "y" without paying too much attention and ended up paying some asshole 2.8 BTC to send a little over 5. Which is more than half of the bitcoin controlled by my privkeys.A couple suggestions:1. Kick those people from the IRC with 50%+ fees.2. Present the cjfee in something other than satoshis or have an alert that says you're about to pay an insane amount.

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LegendaryActivity: 3304Merit: 1487 Re: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use July 19, 2015, 11:29:22 PM #117 Quote from: mktx on July 19, 2015, 10:11:44 PM



Code: python sendpayment.py -C -N 4 <wallet> 0 <address>

The script put the transaction together, and presented me with the options and a "y/n" prompt. I pressed "y" without paying too much attention and ended up paying some asshole 2.8 BTC to send a little over 5. Which is more than half of the bitcoin controlled by my privkeys.



A couple suggestions:



1. Kick those people from the IRC with 50%+ fees.



2. Present the cjfee in something other than satoshis or have an alert that says you're about to pay an insane amount.

I think this project is amazing as well, and I really enjoy using it as my preferred method for coinjoin txs. However I do have one complaint. The other day I was using the sendpayment.py script. The command was exactly:The script put the transaction together, and presented me with the options and a "y/n" prompt. I pressed "y" without paying too much attention and ended up paying some asshole 2.8 BTC to send a little over 5. Which is more than half of the bitcoin controlled by my privkeys.A couple suggestions:1. Kick those people from the IRC with 50%+ fees.2. Present the cjfee in something other than satoshis or have an alert that says you're about to pay an insane amount.

Ouch, that sounds like you got the rawhide treatment. Ouch, that sounds like you got the rawhide treatment. Monetary Freedom - an inalienable right

Per aspera ad astra Per aspera ad astra