michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Three decades ago, the Academy Awards gave its highest honor to a movie about a white passenger learning to love her black chauffeur. On Sunday night, it gave the same award to a film about a white chauffeur learning to love his black passenger. Times culture critic Wesley Morris on Hollywood’s obsession with fantasies of racial reconciliation. It’s Tuesday, February 26.

archived recording

Good evening, and welcome to the one millionth Academy Awards. We are not your hosts, but we’re going to stand here a little too long so that the people who get USA Today tomorrow will think that we hosted.

michael barbaro

So last night, I was watching the Academy Awards. I was struck that it was John Lewis, this congressman, but most importantly, this legendary civil rights leader, who introduced “Green Book” at the awards ceremony.

archived recording (john lewis)

I can bear witness that the portrait of that time and place in our history is very real.

michael barbaro

And basically endorsed it. And I haven’t seen the movie, but his stamp of approval made me think that I should have.

archived recording (john lewis)

Our nation bears the scars of that time, as do I. [APPLAUSE]

michael barbaro

And then after “Green Book” won best picture, later on in the evening, I’d read that Spike Lee, the black director, he walked out of the room in protest.

wesley morris

Yes.

michael barbaro

And that the award generated a fair amount of controversy. So my question to you is, what exactly happened here?

wesley morris

O.K., well, where do you even want to start? How far back in history do you want to go?

michael barbaro

Wherever you think we should in order to really understand this.

wesley morris

Oh, man. Let’s go back to 1990, which is the Oscar year for the films that came out in 1989. And you have a best-picture slate that is full of movies that we still are with in some ways.

archived recording

If you build it, he will come.

wesley morris

“Field of Dreams” and “Dead Poets Society.”

archived recording

We are food for worms, lads. Because believe or not, each and every one of us in this room is one day going to stop breathing.

wesley morris

“Born on the Fourth of July.”

archived recording

People say, if you don’t love America, then get the hell out.

wesley morris

And “My Left Foot,” which we don’t really talk about enough, but it made Daniel Day-Lewis a star, and gave him the first of his zillion Oscars. And —

archived recording

[CAR ENGINE STARTING]

wesley morris

“Driving Miss Daisy.”

archived recording

My mother’s a little high-strung. The fact is, you’d be working for me. She can say anything she likes, but she can’t fire you.

michael barbaro

And remind me what that film was about.

wesley morris

“Driving Miss Daisy“?

michael barbaro

Yeah.

wesley morris

“Driving Miss Daisy.” “Driving Miss Daisy” is the story of an old Jewish lady played by Jessica Tandy, whose son insists that she’s too old to drive her car. So he hires a black guy to drive the car for her.

archived recording

Now, Miss Daisy, you need a chauffeur. Lord knows I need a job. So why don’t we just leave it like that?

wesley morris

His name is Hoke. He’s played by Morgan Freeman. And over the course of, I guess it’s maybe 30 years, this professional relationship deepens into a kind of friendship.

archived recording (daisy)

You’re my best friend.

archived recording (hoke)

No, go on now, Miss Daisy. You don’t have to —

archived recording (daisy)

No, really. You are.

wesley morris

It is a fantasy set during Jim Crow in the South about an impossible friendship that is based in work. And that makes us feel good, because you see this prejudiced woman in a racist climate become friends with this black man who just wants to drive her around. Basically, what happened that year was that Kim Basinger at some point comes out.

archived recording (kim basinger)

Hello, the world. We’ve got five great films here. And they’re great for one reason, because they tell the truth. But there is one film missing from this list that deserves to be on it, because ironically, it might tell the biggest truth of all.

wesley morris

And she says, oh, wait a minute, something’s not in this category. And it’s the movie that tells the biggest truth of all.

archived recording (kim basinger)

And that’s “Do the Right Thing.”

michael barbaro

So Kim Basinger comes in.

wesley morris

Kim Basinger.

michael barbaro

Famous white actress, and says, something’s amiss here. “Do the Right Thing” should be nominated.

wesley morris

Never met Spike Lee. She is dating Prince at this point. Spike Lee — one of Spike Lee’s favorite people on the whole planet. But I don’t think that really matters. Anyway, she comes out and says this, and it’s a controversial thing. The room is sort of unsure what to do about this.

michael barbaro

And what’s the basic plot?

wesley morris

The basic plot is —

archived recording

Fight the power! Fight the power!

wesley morris

It is a parable set on the hottest day of the year in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Who told you to walk on my side of my block? Who told you to be in my neighborhood?

archived recording (speaker 2)

I own this brownstone.

archived recording (speaker 3)

Who told you to buy a brownstone on my block, in my neighborhood, on my side of the street?

archived recording (speaker 4)

I can’t even hear myself think!

wesley morris

And all kinds of racial tensions bring people to converge on this pizzeria. And you just have all this tension, and things boil over. There is a melee. Someone dies at the hands of the police. Then you have a riot.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Doctor.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Come on. What?

archived recording (speaker 1)

Always do the right thing.

wesley morris

It’s by Spike Lee. It’s his best movie.

archived recording (speaker 1)

That’s it?

archived recording (speaker 2)

That’s it.

archived recording (speaker 1)

I got it, I’m gone.

wesley morris

It’s one of the greatest movies ever made in the history of American cinema.

michael barbaro

So in 1990, which film ultimately wins best picture?

wesley morris

Michael, I told you what they were. What do you think won?

archived recording

And the Oscar goes to “Driving Miss Daisy“!

michael barbaro

And what does it mean that “Driving Miss Daisy” won best picture in that year?

wesley morris

That it’s the continuation of a long trend of a kind of racial reconciliation fantasy.

michael barbaro

And what does that phrase mean?

wesley morris

Well, it’s this idea that you’ve got a white character who typically tends to be racist or bigoted or prejudiced or whatever. And that person is going on this journey, courtesy of this relationship to a black person who has no journey to go on, is just there to morally be a center that this white person can return to, or, like, make his or her way toward.

michael barbaro

And just to be clear, break down this word “fantasy” for me. What is the fantasy?

wesley morris

The fantasy is that prolonged exposure to a black person is going to cure you of your racism. The black person just has to sit there and take your money. And you’re basically buying a friend, who will then absolve you of every horrible thought, every racist deed you’ve ever had or done.

michael barbaro

And what does that look like? How does that fantasy, this dynamic you’re describing — how does that show up in pop culture over the next few years and maybe even decades?

wesley morris

Well, let’s just skip to the ‘80s.

archived recording (speaker 1)

What do you give the kid who has everything?

archived recording (speaker 2)

Daddy said anything I wanted. Anything in the store.

wesley morris

So there’s this one movie that I remember very clearly. It’s called “The Toy.”

archived recording (speaker 1)

For Eric Bates, it was the only toy in his father’s store —

archived recording (speaker 2)

I know what I want.

archived recording (speaker 1)

— that wasn’t for sale.

archived recording (speaker 3)

What you’re offering me is not a job, sir. It’s an insult, and I’m insulted.

wesley morris

Richard Pryor, who, at this point, if people were taking a poll and saying, name the greatest living comedian, Richard Pryor would probably be at the top of almost everybody’s list. He’s recruited in this movie by Jackie Gleason to be the best friend of his estranged son. Pays him money.

archived recording (speaker 1)

$2,000?

archived recording (speaker 2)

With that kind of money, if Eric blows his nose, you wipe it.

wesley morris

And the idea is that he’s going to befriend this kid.

archived recording

If you want a friend, you don’t buy a friend. You earn a friend.

wesley morris

Who is initially pretty obnoxious. Meanwhile, the guy who — Jackie Gleason’s character is a bigot and a racist, and at some point has to be taught by Richard Pryor’s character that that’s not cool, and being a father is pretty O.K., too.

michael barbaro

Why would Richard Pryor take this kind of a role?

wesley morris

Your guess is as good as mine. But it’s like, why does anybody take any of these roles? Because there’s nothing else for them to do if they want to be in movies. You don’t have a lot of black people writing and directing movies. Most of the people writing these shows and directing and writing these movies are white people whose ideas about black people come from popular culture that existed before the popular culture they’re making. It’s usually not coming from actual relationships with actual black people. And if it is, it’s compromised by the idea that there’s only so much that they can imagine a black person doing in the first place. So this idea of behind-the-camera representation becomes important during this period, too. But I mean, for our purposes, it’s white people imagining black people, for white people. And then in the 2000s, you have a very easy, classic example of this problem.

archived recording

I got a job today writing for the Jackson Journal.

wesley morris

In a movie like “The Help,” another best picture nominee.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Aibileen, you spilled something.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Forgive me, Lord, but I’m going to have to kill that woman, Aibileen.

wesley morris

And it is essentially the story of some maids in a southern town.

archived recording

You said to write about what disturbs me, particularly if it bothers no one else. I’d like to write something from the point of view of the help. I want to interview you.

wesley morris

Who wind up being written about as an exposé.

archived recording (speaker 1)

I’m gonna help with your stories.

archived recording (speaker 2)

We all are.

wesley morris

Of the poor treatment they receive at the hands of their white mistresses.

archived recording

It’s quite scandalous. Sounds like Jackson, if you ask me.

wesley morris

And the book becomes a hit. But it then winds up imperiling the lives and the safety and comfort of the women themselves.

archived recording

You tell Aibileen, do I have plans for her. You’re a godless woman.

michael barbaro

And what is the fantasy in “The Help“?

wesley morris

Well, the fantasy is that you can make the lives better for oppressed women during the Jim Crow era, in which, you know, black people were treated all kinds of horrible — death, dehumanization, any kind of inequity you can subject a person to black people faced under Jim Crow. And by writing this book, which is what the white main character of this movie does, it’s supposed to make these lives better. And the fantasy is that this woman can come in, interview these black women, they will give their stories to this white woman, who will write a book, sell a bunch of copies. And these black women are going to be left to fend for themselves. But the fantasy that this woman is allowed to have about her do-gooderness is that she actually is making a difference and is going to create a means by which these women can be treated better by the white women they work for.

michael barbaro

When in fact, in some cases, she makes it worse.

wesley morris

She makes it worse. The last shot of that movie is really kind of tragic.

archived recording

Mae Mobley was my last baby. In just 10 minutes, the only life I knew was done.

wesley morris

It’s just Viola Davis walking down a road — with no job, by the way.

archived recording

God says we need to love our enemies. It’s hard to do.

wesley morris

It kind of creates this sense that Emma Stone is kind of off the hook, and Viola Davis is on a hook. And the fantasy of the reconciliation is that the conscience-clearing and the act of expressing empathy or sympathy or something is enough.

michael barbaro

I guess I want to push you on this. Doesn’t inherently spending time with people who are different than we are make us more empathetic? And why would that be anything other than a good thing?

wesley morris

That’s a deep question. The immediate answer, though, is that it’s on the terms of white people. There’s nothing mutual about any of these movies, any of this work. It’s not mutual at all. You aren’t going into the houses and lives of these black characters. And they’re presented as so good as to have no agency. Now “The Help” sort of pushes back against that a little bit. But to be fair, I mean, if the movie works, and it works as a movie, it’s very easy to overlook a lot of these problems. A well-made movie is effective as a spell-casting mechanism, right? You know, you watch a movie like “The Help,” and you’re like, but she wrote the book. She got the truth out there about how bad it is for these maids. And what more can she do? What more do you want her to do? She did her job. I just feel like that is a great way to feel, but I’d love to see a black woman’s version of “The Help.” But I don’t think you’d ever see that, because black people don’t want to tell that story. And the other thing about these movies that’s really worth noting, especially the ones that get near the Oscars, these racial reconciliation fantasies are almost always set in the past. They’re all set during the Jim Crow-era, in the South for the most part, and involve something about the relationship between the white person and the black person being unequal, whether it’s the black person’s I.Q. in “The Green Mile” or the social standing of the black person in “The Help.” So these are movies that would say they believe in equality, but there’s nothing equal about the races in them. There’s an inherent imbalance. And the fantasy, of course, is just acknowledging that black people exist and giving them some lines and casting a good actor to play them is a kind of argument for an equality. But it’s not, if you look at the way they function within the system that the movie created for itself.

michael barbaro

So lay out for me specifically how you see this racial reconciliation fantasy playing out in “Green Book.” And I haven’t seen the movie, so keep that in mind.

wesley morris

You’re in for a treat, my friend. So here we are in 2019, and just imagine all this progress in 30 years. So this is the year where the movies have just never been blacker, and the black movies you get have never been this good, right, as a class of movies. You’ve got a movie like “Blindspotting,” “Sorry to Bother You,” “Black Panther,” “BlacKkKlansman.” You’ve got “If Beale Street Could Talk.” You’ve got “Widows.” this is coming a year after “Get Out” was a hit. And that’s coming a year after “Moonlight” won best picture.

michael barbaro

All having major black protagonists.

wesley morris

Major black protagonists? They were written and directed by black people. It’s a huge deal. It’s meaningful. So here we are, 2018. This movie called “Green Book” starts to make its way around the country. And it should be the story of a man named Don Shirley, a black musician who is no longer with us, and the trip he decides to take to the Deep South in 1962. 1962. Like, Jim Crow Deep South, 1962. And he needs somebody to be able to get him from place to place.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Some guy called over here, a doctor. He’s looking for a driver. You interested?

archived recording (speaker 2)

I am not a medical doctor. I’m a musician. I’m about to embark on a concert tour in the Deep South. What other experience do you have?

archived recording (speaker 3)

Public relations.

wesley morris

It’s got to be somebody who’s tough, has a little bit of muscle, isn’t afraid of anything, but is also obviously white.

archived recording

Do you foresee any issues in working for a black man? You in the Deep South? There’s going to be problems.

wesley morris

So he decides that the man for the job is a guy named Tony Vallelonga, a kind of bouncer from the Bronx. Now what I just said to you is the opposite of what the movie actually is. The movie is actually the story of Tony Vallelonga, and how he gets a call one day from somebody for a job. And he goes and meets Don Shirley, who he sees and is like, I’m driving for you? No way, I’m not doing that. And Don Shirley, of course, is like, but I need you, you’re my man. You seem to be the most qualified person for the job. Please do it. Drive me. He consents. Thus begins a friendship almost completely from the vantage of Tony Vallelonga.

michael barbaro

The white guy.

wesley morris

Yes. Tony is the protagonist of this movie. We spend the first 25 minutes of it with him. And I saw the poster for this movie, and the poster is Viggo Mortensen in the front seat, Mahershala Ali, who plays Don Shirley, in the back seat. The first thing I thought was, oh my god, you gotta be kidding me.

michael barbaro

Why?

wesley morris

It’s “Driving Miss Daisy” all over again! This is 1989 all over again. I can’t believe this.

archived recording

Kentucky Fried Chicken. In Kentucky. When’s that ever going to happen?

wesley morris

I mean, it’s a comedy all in the service of making you feel good about the idea that racist Tony Vallelonga can become increasingly less racist by driving Don around a place that the movie wants you to understand is more racist than Tony.

archived recording (speaker 1)

I got the bucket so you could have some.

archived recording (speaker 2)

I’ve never had fried chicken in my life.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Who are you bullshitting? You people love the fried chicken, the grits and the collard greens. I love it too. Negro cooks used to make it all the time when I was in the army.

archived recording (speaker 2)

You have a very narrow assessment of me, Tony.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Yeah, right? I’m good.

archived recording (speaker 2)

No, no, you’re not good. You’re bad. I’m saying just because other Negroes enjoy certain types of music, it doesn’t mean I have to, nor do we all eat the same kind of food.

wesley morris

Tony is like a nice, friendly, lovable cartoon racist. But I mean, he’s nothing compared to these Jim Crow people. You know, these Confederate racists who use the N-word every 15 minutes and have Confederate flags everywhere and will beat Don up for coughing. We’ve never seen Tony do that. This entire movie is — oh my god, it’s a literal vehicle to get Tony from racism to reconciliation in under two hours.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Eat it. Come on. Take it, take it, take it. I gotta drive. 10 and 2 on the wheel. Come on, take it. Take it. Come on, come on. Here you go. Huh?

archived recording (speaker 2)

I can’t do this, Tony.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Eat the [expletive] thing. Jesus.

michael barbaro

So this year’s Academy Awards happens on Sunday night, 30 years after “Driving Miss Daisy” wins best picture, and Spike Lee’s “Do the Right Thing” is not even nominated for best picture. What’s going through your head as the evening unfolds? I assume you’re watching it.

wesley morris

Yeah, I was. I was watching it. I mean, I have to watch it.

archived recording

Here are the nominees for best picture.

wesley morris

I mean, obviously, there’s a juiciness, right? There’s a kind of moral juiciness. You’ve got “Green Book” nominated for best picture and four other Oscars. And then you’ve got Spike Lee back at the Oscars in a competitive way for the first time since that Oscar loss in 1990 for “Do the Right Thing.” He was nominated one other time, but this is, like — this is the big boys’ table if you’re Spike Lee. So here we are. We’re having a little bit of PTSD, because a movie that’s just like “Driving Miss Daisy” is up against a movie in “BlacKkKlansman” —

archived recording

There’s never been a black cop in this city. We think you might be the man to open things up around here.

wesley morris

That features a black guy in the Colorado Springs Police Department, who basically, via telephone, infiltrates the K.K.K., pretending to be a white guy hoping to join.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Hello?

archived recording (speaker 2)

This is Ron Stallworth calling. Who am I speaking with?

archived recording (speaker 1)

This is David Duke.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, that David Duke?

archived recording (speaker 1)

Last time I checked. What can I do you for?

wesley morris

And it obviously is trying to depict a more accurate racial scene than “Green Book” is trying to depict.

archived recording (speaker 1)

We must unite and organize to fight racism.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Are you down for the liberation of black people?

archived recording (speaker 3)

Power to the people.

archived recording (speaker 2)

All power to all the people.

archived recording

All power to all the people.

archived recording (speaker 3)

That’s right, sister.

michael barbaro

This is very much, in a sense, a rematch of 1989, 1990.

wesley morris

It is a spiritual rematch involving one of the actual participants, but in different categories, right? And so the stakes are this. If “Green Book” wins, and you’ve got a movie like “BlacKkKlansman” nominated for best picture, what on earth is that telling you about where the academy is as a body and what its priorities are in terms of whose point of view matters to the most people?

archived recording

And the Oscar goes to “Green Book.”

wesley morris

And so I feel like I really understand why that movie won. It really does believe that Don Shirley’s insisting that Tony Vallelonga be in his life makes Tony a better person. That feels good, right? It feels good to see a person make a positive change from a bad place to an arguably good one. And I don’t know, there’s just — it’s very hard to resist that. I mean, for the people who do like it, it is a really good movie. It’s entertaining, and it’s funny. And it’s made by Peter Farrelly of the Farrelly Brothers, the people who brought you “Something about Mary” and “Shallow Hal” and “Me, Myself and Irene.” These guys know how to make a comedy. That’s what they do. And that’s what this movie is, 100 percent — it’s a comedy. And I don’t think most people watch movies that morally. And there are people who — you bring this up, and I’m like, but who is Don Shirley to this movie? People get upset. Listen, it’s about interracial friendship. It’s about healing the divide between the races. How dare you? This is a good movie. And it’s saying something positive.

michael barbaro

Right.

wesley morris

Why do you want negativity in the world? And I never have a good answer for that, because those people — those people aren’t wrong. But I also feel like this movie is not the solution to anything. It is the perpetuation of the same problems our entertainment’s been giving us since it started.

michael barbaro

So Wesley, what is significant about this best picture award? What does it mean that the academy chose a film like this — one with, to use your words, this racial reconciliation fantasy as so central to its plot — as the best film of the year?

wesley morris

It’s a fantasy. And it does nothing to address or acknowledge the infrastructural problems that keep the races divided. If anything, the enthusiasm for a movie like “Green Book” only makes — it kind of makes the problem worse, in some ways. Because it makes it seem like the movies don’t care about the way racism actually works. They just want to make racism go away. I mean, let me just put it this way. I’ll put it in the most human terms I possibly can — personal terms. I have white friends. I see very little art about the kind of friendships I have with white people. I have friendships with white people that don’t involve making them feel better about their racism, to the extent that they have it. We talk about that stuff. Like, why did you say that? Why did you do that? These are not cataclysmic conversations. These relationships are about a mutual curiosity. These people want to know what my life is like as a black person. They want to know what my family is like, what my family history is like. There is a give and take. There is a real questioning of the larger systemic problems in this country that affect the relationship that I’m even able to have with these white people. And that is not the thing that you see discussed in these movies. I think that the movies have an obligation to entertain us, but I think they also have an obligation to be fair to certain aspects of social reality. Because people take lessons from this stuff. All I’m saying is, “Green Book” is another version of a movie we’ve been watching for 100 years.

michael barbaro

Wesley, I’m really struck that I think it was about a month ago, you wrote an essay for The Times in which you kind of laid out everything we’re talking about now. You reminded us that 30 years ago, “Driving Miss Daisy” won, and that this idea of the racial reconciliation fantasy remains prominent in Hollywood and was at the center of “Green Book.” And you seemed to kind of presciently suggest that that movie might win and that it might carry the day because of the power of this concept you were describing. And that is exactly what happened.

wesley morris

I mean, listen, there’s a part of me that’s like, I never am right about the Oscar winners. But I just felt this one. I felt this one. I felt like there was a way in which the thing that happened on Sunday does mirror whatever is happening in this country right now, where a segment of the population is feeling really paranoid and a little bit endangered and is worried about feeling displaced or unseated by change. And to the extent that the people who make our movies are a microcosm of the nation writ large, the academy is undergoing some changes, and it is becoming less white and less male. And I think they’re going to, like, cling even more tightly to things that feel safe and familiar. And this is a movie that feels safe, and it feels comforting in some way. Because it lets them believe that on the one hand, they can say they’re giving their top honor to a movie about an interracial friendship and about racial reconciliation.

michael barbaro

Right.

wesley morris

But to me, what that says about them is also a fantasy, right? It’s also a fantasy that says, this symbol of excellence, and this symbol of our tastes and our belief as a body, or at least the people who voted for it, really does sort of reflect what we should be as a nation. And that’s not what we are. So the aspiration that we can just make this racism go away by running out and finding the nearest black person to pay us to be better people is absurd. And I think that’s what happened on Sunday.

michael barbaro

Wesley, thank you very much.

wesley morris

Oh, my pleasure.

michael barbaro