michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Two battles over the meaning of democracy are now playing out in Europe. Correspondent Katrin Bennhold on the political power plays in Britain and Italy. It’s Friday, August 30. So Katrin, previously on “The Daily,” you told us the story of populism in Europe over five parts, and now it feels like that story is very much back in the news.

katrin bennhold

I know. So we’ve got news out of the U.K. We’ve got news out of Italy. I’m sort of just waiting for the other countries to sort of implode. Yeah, it’s been quite a week.

michael barbaro

So let’s start with the U.K. Remind us where we were when this week started.

archived recording 1 Good evening from Downing Street, where Boris Johnson, one of the most controversial politicians of modern times, has taken over as prime minister from Theresa May. archived recording 2 Standing in Downing Street for the first time as prime minister, Boris Johnson promised the British people that Brexit will be dealt with in 99 days. archived recording 3 And he’s promised to take Britain out of the E.U. on October 31, with or without a deal. archived recording (boris johnson) I and all ministers are committed to leaving on this date, whatever the circumstances, and to do otherwise would cause a catastrophic loss of confidence in our political system.

katrin bennhold

O.K., so the situation is that Boris Johnson needs to deliver Brexit finally. We’ve got a deadline, October 31. The deadline was extended twice. This now seems to be the hard deadline, and he’s got nine weeks to deliver this promise to take Britain out of the European Union. Basically, there are two ways of doing that. Either you cut a deal with Brussels with the other 27 countries in the European Union and figure out a way to make this kind of work seamlessly, or you don’t cut a deal, in which case you kind of crash out of this bloc, meaning that you have a situation of total chaos. This no-deal Brexit scenario is basically something that most lawmakers want to avoid.

michael barbaro

Right, and that’s why there were scenes of Theresa May trying and failing to pass a deal Brexit through Parliament over and over again, and these really embarrassing stumbles.

katrin bennhold

Correct. She failed three times, and then she resigned. And now Boris Johnson has made it very clear that he stands for a Brexit on October 31, do or die, as he put it —

archived recording (boris johnson) And we’re going to fulfill the repeated promises of Parliament to the people —

katrin bennhold

— deal or no deal.

archived recording (boris johnson) — and come out of the E.U. on October the 31st —

katrin bennhold

That’s his objective.

archived recording (boris johnson) — no ifs or buts.

katrin bennhold

So this was kind of the situation we were in. Everybody was wondering, what’s he going to do with this? And then he did something that nobody expected. He suspended Parliament.

archived recording 1 It is a move that will make it easier for Johnson to force the country’s exit from the European Union without a deal in place. archived recording 2 Critics say this is a constitutional crisis, but supporters say it’s standard practice.

michael barbaro

What does that actually mean?

katrin bennhold

So he’s dealing with a Parliament that not only hasn’t been able to agree on anything — there’s no majority for any deal that has been proposed — he’s dealing with a Parliament that tried to oust him at one point, and he’s dealing with a Parliament where various opposition parties are now finally making common cause to basically pass legislation to stop a no-deal Brexit from happening, which would limit his options and basically risk, for him, not to be able to deliver on his promise, which is Brexit, come what may. So there’s this thing called proroguing. It’s a very British thing. If you prorogue Parliament, you basically suspend it temporarily. And he’s basically cut down the time that Parliament has in session to debate Brexit from five weeks to less than three weeks. By cutting the timetable, Johnson is making it much less likely that these people will actually come to an agreement.

michael barbaro

And get in his way.

katrin bennhold

And get in his way. In a way, he’s made it almost impossible for anyone to challenge his promise to leave the European Union on October 31.

michael barbaro

So Johnson’s trying to severely limit the role of the legislative branch of the British government in what is arguably the most consequential process it has gone through in decades. How on earth is that possible?

katrin bennhold

The crazy thing is it’s totally possible. Most people think it’s entirely within the bounds of Britain’s famously unwritten constitution. And he got it approved by the queen, and that allowed him to go ahead.

michael barbaro

So that’s all it takes. Ask the queen. Suspend Parliament.

katrin bennhold

That’s all it takes.

michael barbaro

So does that mean the queen supports this plan?

katrin bennhold

No, it doesn’t mean that she supports it. It’s basically a formality in Britain. That part is normal, but what isn’t normal is the timing and the way that he sort of did this in a way that looks very much politically motivated. And, you know, this is not necessarily illegal. There may be legal challenges, but a lot of people think he’ll get away with it. But it’s sneaky, and it’s kind of undermining trust in the institutions and reinforcing the sense that democracy is not working, and that could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So he’s kind of playing with fire.

michael barbaro

It’s extremely brazen, and I wonder how people, especially people who serve in Parliament, have responded?

katrin bennhold

They’re not happy.

archived recording (CHANTING) Stop the coup. Stop the coup.

katrin bennhold

People basically accuse him of staging a coup.

archived recording (nicola sturgeon) Shutting down Parliament in order to force through a no-deal Brexit, which will do untold and lasting damage to the country, against the wishes of M.P.s is not democracy. It’s dictatorship.

katrin bennhold

They say he’s acting like a king. He’s taking away fundamental democratic rights and disabling Parliament.

archived recording (jeremy corbyn) Suspending Parliament is not acceptable. It’s not on. What the prime minister is doing is a sort of smash and grab on our democracy.

katrin bennhold

People have been marching in the streets.

archived recording (CHANTING) Stop the coup.

katrin bennhold

The bottom line of all of this is that people are saying this is deeply undemocratic.

archived recording It is not for an unelected prime minister to shut down the elected Parliament to ram through a no-deal for which he has no democratic mandate.

michael barbaro

I mean, the scale of what he’s doing strikes me as the equivalent of the president of the United States in the middle of the immigration debate, for example, something as divisive as Brexit, just somehow suspending Congress and putting his plan for a border wall in action and saying, I don’t need you. You’re in the way.

katrin bennhold

It’s not a bad analogy, because Johnson is saying, I’m not undemocratic. You guys are. And I suspect that’s probably what Trump would say. He’d say, the people voted for me. I promised a wall. So this is democracy. Well, Johnson is basically saying, the people voted for Brexit, so I’m the man to deliver it. And if Parliament is going to stand in the way, then Parliament is undemocratic.

archived recording (boris johnson) It has become clear that there are pessimists at home and abroad who think, after three years of indecision, that this country has become a prisoner to the old arguments of 2016, and in this home of democracy, we are incapable of honoring a democratic mandate.

katrin bennhold

It’s pretty classic populist stuff, actually. The evil elites, they’re not standing for the people, but here I am, the man to represent the people.

archived recording (boris johnson) And so I am standing before you today to tell you, the British people, that those critics are wrong. The doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters, they are going to get it wrong again. The people who bet against Britain are going to lose their shirts, because we’re going to restore trust in our democracy.

michael barbaro

So Johnson is saying, you’re calling it undemocratic for me to block Parliament’s ability to do my job, but I say it’s undemocratic for Parliament to get in the way of me realizing what the people voted directly for, which is Brexit.

katrin bennhold

Exactly. And ultimately, that’s kind of where we’re at. It’s like, what’s your definition of democracy? Is a democracy people voted for Brexit and nobody’s been able to deliver it? Is it democratic to disable, temporarily, a legislative chamber that is sort of at the core of representative democracy? The people vote for these representatives to stand for their interests. But there is this rift right now, and this is kind of at the heart of this issue of rising populism across Europe that we touched on in June as well, is the people don’t trust their representatives anymore. There’s this crisis of representative democracy. And in Britain, the oldest democracy in the world, this tension has now really come to a head.

michael barbaro

Right. It’s one of the reasons that the British people voted to get out of the E.U. in the first place, this idea that the European Union was not properly representing them.

katrin bennhold

And this is where, in some ways, the irony lies, because Boris Johnson argued in favor of Brexit precisely with the argument that it would reinforce the British Parliament.

archived recording (boris johnson) They say we have no choice but to bow down to Brussels. We say they are woefully underestimating this country and what it can do.

katrin bennhold

It would repatriate powers. It would make the British Parliament more powerful and more democratic. I mean, he basically argued, when he was arguing in favor of Brexit, that Brussels was dominating too much, that Brussels was dictating to Britain, that Brussels was sort of curtailing British sovereignty and the sort of ability of the British Parliament to legislate. And now, he is curtailing the power of the British Parliament to legislate.

archived recording (boris johnson) If we vote leave, we can take back control of our borders, of huge sums of money — 10 billion pounds a year net — of our tax-raising powers, of our trade policy, and of our whole lawmaking system, the democracy that is the foundation of our prosperity.

katrin bennhold

And now he’s suspending it.

michael barbaro

So Katrin, what are we expecting to actually happen now as a result of this move by the prime minister?

katrin bennhold

So right from the start, Brexit has been an incredibly complicated issue, super fraught and impossible to predict the outcome. I would say that, in the broadest possible terms, what Boris Johnson has done has significantly increased the chances of Britain leaving the European Union on October 31, and it has probably also increased the chances of it leaving without a deal. Now, he is gambling — and it’s a high-stakes gamble — that he will terrify everybody so much about his utter intention to leave without a deal if necessary that the European Union might just give him that concession that eluded Theresa May, and that Parliament will pass whatever deal he presents to them just to avoid the incredibly damaging and disruptive scenario of a no-deal Brexit. But if a no-deal Brexit happens, then that might be not just a big blow to Britain’s economy, but, given what Boris Johnson just has done, to Britain’s democracy, too.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. O.K., Katrin, we were just talking about the messy situation in the U.K. What is happening in Italy?

katrin bennhold

So this is fascinating. Basically, we have kind of an exact inversion of the situation that we just talked about in the U.K. We have a situation where it’s kind of Parliament taking control in order to keep a populist from taking power. So recall that in Italy, there’s this hard-right figure —

archived recording Matteo Salvini!

katrin bennhold

— Matteo Salvini —

archived recording (matteo salvini) [SPEAKING ITALIAN]

katrin bennhold

— who has become enormously popular for being anti-immigrant and —

archived recording (matteo salvini) [SPEAKING ITALIAN]

katrin bennhold

— stopping migrants from landing on Italy’s shores. He’s been part of a coalition government. He was interior minister, and during his time in government, has become even more popular.

archived recording (CHANTING) Matteo! Matteo! Matteo! Matteo! Matteo!

katrin bennhold

So he had this idea. He basically wanted to force the collapse of his own government in order to force a new election and then become prime minister.

michael barbaro

So he thought that he had become so popular while in this position that if there were to be a new election, he would win it and become prime minister.

katrin bennhold

Exactly. And his opponents in Parliament thought he was right. They thought he would probably win it —

archived recording Italy’s government has descended into chaos.

katrin bennhold

— which is why —

archived recording Giuseppe Conte abruptly tendered his resignation today after days of political infighting, adding a new level —

katrin bennhold

— two very unlikely partners —

archived recording — days, Italy’s opposition Democrats and the Five Star Movement have been scrambling to try and forge a viable coalition.

katrin bennhold

— two parties that have been kind of sworn enemies until just a few days ago wanted to make sure that this election would never happen.

archived recording Two rival parties, the Five Star Movement and Democratic Party, discussed who should get what ministerial posts.

katrin bennhold

So they kind of negotiated a new coalition government that would not include his party.

archived recording A seismic shift in Italy’s political landscape. The established center-left Democratic Party and Italy’s anti-establishment Five Star Movement have agreed to put aside their differences and join forces to form a government.

katrin bennhold

So he’s been sidelined by his own maneuver —

archived recording Salvini is furious, accusing Brussels, Berlin —

katrin bennhold

— but also by a parliament that, as it would argue, in a bid to save Italian democracy from a populist who is going to go into coalition with an even more populist far-right party, would basically prevent a new election. They would prevent giving the Italian people a vote at this moment.

archived recording The new coalition is united against a common enemy. It will need to hold firm to keep Salvini at bay.

michael barbaro

So this is kind of wild political bed-hopping, and did it work?

katrin bennhold

It worked, at least for now. So basically, we have a situation where Salvini has been sidelined. He’s no longer in government. He has lost his ministerial post and a powerful platform to sort of do this continuous campaigning that he’s been doing. His opponents hope that this will basically reduce his popularity and that, come the next election — which is formally scheduled in three years — he won’t be as powerful and popular as he is now. Of course, there are a lot of wild cards in this, because his narrative, of course, is the establishment is afraid of the people. The establishment is afraid of new elections. The establishment is afraid of democracy. That is what Matteo Salvini would say.

michael barbaro

Right. In his mind, he was the most powerful leader with the people of Italy, and he was just ousted by the politicians in Parliament.

katrin bennhold

That’s the story he tells, and it’s a powerful story. And so the question is, how does this play out? Is he going to be a kind of political has-been who, deprived of his ministerial platform, will indeed lose popularity and kind of vanish from the scene, or will he turn into this populist martyr, this guy who, more now than ever before, will represent the kind of frustrated ambitions of the people to have their voice heard?

michael barbaro

And therefore in three years could be even more popular than ever?

katrin bennhold

It’s possible.

michael barbaro

So again, there’s two ways of looking at what’s democratic here, just as there was in the U.K. One is that Italy’s Parliament protected democracy by blocking the ascent of a populist with authoritarian leanings. The other is that that leader, Salvini, is the man of the people and that Parliament this time staged a kind of undemocratic coup.

katrin bennhold

Exactly. So Parliament would say they did this to save Italian democracy, but another way of looking at it is that they saved themselves.

michael barbaro

So Katrin, what do we make of these two stories unfolding in the exact same week?

katrin bennhold

Yeah, so who would have thought only two weeks ago that we’d be talking about a situation in Italy that is actually relatively calm? You’ve got a social democratic party, a pro-European sort of establishment party in power instead of this kind of hard-right firebrand. And who would have thought that the prime minister of Britain would subvert Parliament in the world’s oldest democracy? But this is kind of what the battle looks like, right, between the establishment and the populists. And it’s playing out everywhere, in every single country, in its own way, at different levels and different intensities. And everybody thinks they’re on the right side of democracy. That’s kind of the striking thing, right? Everybody thinks they’re representing democracy. And where we will end, where we will land in the end, is kind of the big question of Europe right now.

[music]

michael barbaro

Katrin, thank you very much.

katrin bennhold

Bye, Michael.

michael barbaro