TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-08 04:17:46 #1



Introduction



+ Show Spoiler + Hello and thank you for viewing this guide.



As a Zerg player whose average game lasted about five minutes in HotS, I've had an especially good time experimenting with early aggression in LotV. In particular, the prevalence of economy- and tech-focused openings from Terran presents Zergs with many opportunities for unique timings and calculated aggression.



The purpose of this guide is to provide three optimized and efficient opening builds that allow you to be exceedingly aggressive: Ling-Bane, Roach-Ravager, Muta-Bane. All three styles vary in terms of economic commitment; but arguments could be made that each of these attacks are “all-in"; or at least that you must do some damage to justify it.



But that’s fine! These are not meant as be-all-end-all strategies vs Terran, and you shouldn’t rely on these styles alone since they will probably never become standard. However, I think that part of being a well-rounded player is having big bag of tricks, and you never know when the situation might call for something crazy-aggressive.



The three builds presented here can be used independent of each other; but there is some synergy between the styles. In particular, while the Muta-Bane performs well as an opening build, it can also be used as a transition after either the Ling-Bane or Roach-Ravager attack. Many of the replays and tutorials feature these types of games, since I am a huge advocate of sequenced aggression and back-to-back-to-back attacks.



Ling-Bane "All-In"



+ Show Spoiler + Note: There are actually two variations of this build: Pool-First and Hatch-First. Pool-First is a pretty in-your-face and hard to disguise; the Hatch-first is a little more deceptive but arrives later.



Tutorial: Pool-First Ling-Bane All-In (Or is it?)



Replay Pack: Ling-Bane All-In (Or is it?)



Build Order1 – Pool-First:



13 Overlord

17 Pool

17 Gas

18 Hatch

19 Queen

21 Overlord

@100 Gas – Metabolic Boost / Continue mining gas

21 Defensive Zergling

22 Queen (Inject/Move down)

24+ Zerglings

25 Baneling Nest

32 Overlord / Double Inject

Move out at 3:00 – Speed finishes 3:10

32-42 Zerglings

42 Banelingsx8



8 Banelings / 28 Speedlings arrive at 3:40



At first glance, there doesn't seem to be too much “Or is it?” to this attack -- it is about as early and committed as you can go for. But something interesting is happening in the new expansion. In HotS, it was a lot easier to win games outright with cheesy/all-in attacks, but now at least in my own experience, it is harder to secure the early killing blow (believe me, I am trying).



So the interesting change that I’m noticing is that even when you go for the earliest, nastiest timing (like this tangy build), you have to be prepared to transition the vast majority of times, even when you do a ton of damage.



That’s why you shouldn't think of these builds as all-eggs one-basket; you should think of them as stepping stones, aggressive openings where you do damage and throw your opponent off, then begin a planned transition with a clear mid-game follow-up. That’s calculated, sequenced aggression; that’s the difference between an all-in and an “all-in”.



The transition/mid-game follow-up that I recommend is the aggressive Muta-Bane style. As I mentioned earlier, the Muta-Bane style is effective either as an opening or transition. Check out the replays labelled as “Ling-Bane All-In into Aggressive Muta-Ling-Bane” for examples. However, this is my take on transitioning – just food for thought. You absolutely should experiment and put your own spin on the builds and transitions.



Build Order2: Hatch-First:



13 Overlord

17 Hatchery

18 Gas

17 Pool

19 Overlord

19-21 Lings

21-25 Queenx2

@100 Gas -- Zergling Speed (Remain in gas)

30 Overlord

30 Baneling Nest (after Queens pop)

30-44 Zerglings

44 Banelingsx8

44 Overlord + All-In or Transition



8 Banelings / 30 Speedlings arrive at 4:00



I decided to include this alternative build order for those who prefer not to open pool-first in ZvT. Since this build opens with hatch-first, it is possible to deny scouting with Zerglings, deceiving your opponent into thinking you're playing standard macro until you bust down the front door. That’s the ideal scenario, and will probably net you an early win.



However, sometimes Reapers are going to scout the Baneling Nest or the extra Zerglings you’re building. It happens. Theoretically you could call off the bust at any time, switch into drones, and use your units to delay his expansion. But just because your opponent scouts it doesn’t mean they can defend it; the defensive response from Terran (adding bunkers/structures to the wall) takes time and excellent positioning, so you may yet find an opening to do damage!



Either way, Muta-Bane is still an effective follow-up to this opening. 13 Overlord17 Pool17 Gas18 Hatch19 Queen21 Overlord@100 Gas – Metabolic Boost / Continue mining gas21 Defensive Zergling22 Queen (Inject/Move down)24+ Zerglings25 Baneling Nest32 Overlord / Double InjectMove out at 3:00 – Speed finishes 3:1032-42 Zerglings42 Banelingsx8At first glance, there doesn't seem to be too much “Or is it?” to this attack -- it is about as early and committed as you can go for. But something interesting is happening in the new expansion. In HotS, it was a lot easier to win games outright with cheesy/all-in attacks, but now at least in my own experience, it is harder to secure the early killing blow (believe me, I am).So the interesting change that I’m noticing is that even when you go for the earliest, nastiest timing (like this tangy build), you have to be prepared to transition the vast majority of times, even when you doof damage.That’s why you shouldn't think of these builds as all-eggs one-basket; you should think of them as stepping stones, aggressive openings where you do damage and throw your opponent off, then begin awith a. That’s calculated, sequenced aggression; that’s the difference between an all-in and an “all-in”.The transition/mid-game follow-up that I recommend is the aggressivestyle. As I mentioned earlier, the Muta-Bane style is effective either as an opening or transition. Check out the replays labelled as “Ling-Bane All-In into Aggressive Muta-Ling-Bane” for examples. However, this is my take on transitioning – just food for thought. You absolutely should experiment and put your own spin on the builds and transitions.13 Overlord17 Hatchery18 Gas17 Pool19 Overlord19-21 Lings21-25 Queenx2@100 Gas -- Zergling Speed (Remain in gas)30 Overlord30 Baneling Nest (after Queens pop)30-44 Zerglings44 Banelingsx844 Overlord + All-In or TransitionI decided to include this alternative build order for those who prefer not to open pool-first in ZvT. Since this build opens with hatch-first, it is possible to deny scouting with Zerglings, deceiving your opponent into thinking you're playing standard macro until you bust down the front door. That’s the ideal scenario, and will probably net you an early win.However, sometimes Reapers are going to scout the Baneling Nest or the extra Zerglings you’re building. It happens. Theoretically you could call off the bust at any time, switch into drones, and use your units to delay his expansion. But just because your opponent scouts it doesn’t mean they can defend it; the defensive response from Terran (adding bunkers/structures to the wall) takes time and excellent positioning, so you may yet find an opening to do damage!Either way, Muta-Bane is still an effective follow-up to this opening.



Roach-Ravager "All-In"



+ Show Spoiler + Tutorial: Roach-Ravager All-In (Or is it?) Muta Transition



Replay Pack: Roach-Ravager “All-In” (Or is it?)



Build Order:



13 Overlord

17 Hatch

18 Gas

17 Pool

19 Overlord

20 Queenx2

24 Lingsx2 (4 total)

26 Gas (2nd Gas)

Ling Speed @100 Gas (Fill 2 Gas ASAP)

30 Roach Warren

32 Overlordx3-4

32-52 Roaches (10)

52-58 Lings

58-62 Ravagers

62+ All-In or Transition



4 Ravagers / 6 Roaches / 22 Speedlings arrive at 4:20



Once again, it is ideal to deny scouting so that you can arrive unannounced for the SCV-roasting party. Place the Warren in the back of your main, as hidden as possible, then use your Queens and Zerglings to prevent scouting Reapers or SCVs. Do everything you can to disguise your play, but keep in mind that you can never fully guarantee a Reaper won't scout the Warren or at least see your Roaches when they move out.



Your real goal is to hit the timing as early as possible (4:20-4:30), and execute it flawlessly. Ideally, you’ll have an Overlord positioned to give vision of the high ground, allowing your Roach-Ravager to pre-emptively break through the depot(s)/Bunker(s) so that you can quickly flood in and decimate the Terran economy. Try to use your Ravager's range and bile to destroy bunkers and walling-structures, while using your Roaches to tank damage, and your Zerglings to surround units and SCVs once the opportunity is right.



Your primary targets once you break in are SCVs and attacking units; however you may choose to snipe important add-ons like tech labs or reactors. AVOID targeting structures that can lift off (generally) since better damage can be done elsewhere.



Once again it is crucial to have a clear transition point (which should usually be 62 supply) as well as a planned mid-game follow-up. I recommend the aggressive Muta-Bane transition, since you’re already mining a fair bit of gas and your two-base is already about half-saturated, so all you have to do is start a Lair and drone to full 2-base saturation to go for the Mutalisks. Also, your opponent may be ahead in tech since you invested in only Roach/Ravager, which means you may not be able to take a third base (against Banshees for example) until your Spire is done. 13 Overlord17 Hatch18 Gas17 Pool19 Overlord20 Queenx224 Lingsx2 (4 total)26 Gas (2nd Gas)Ling Speed @100 Gas (Fill 2 Gas ASAP)30 Roach Warren32 Overlordx3-432-52 Roaches (10)52-58 Lings58-62 Ravagers62+ All-In or TransitionOnce again, it is ideal to deny scouting so that you can arrive unannounced for the SCV-roasting party. Place the Warren in the back of your main, as hidden as possible, then use your Queens and Zerglings to prevent scouting Reapers or SCVs. Do everything you can to disguise your play, but keep in mind that you can never fully guarantee a Reaper won't scout the Warren or at least see your Roaches when they move out.Your real goal is to hit the timing as early as possible (4:20-4:30), and execute it flawlessly. Ideally, you’ll have an Overlord positioned to give vision of the high ground, allowing your Roach-Ravager to pre-emptively break through the depot(s)/Bunker(s) so that you can quickly flood in and decimate the Terran economy. Try to use your Ravager's range and bile to destroy bunkers and walling-structures, while using your Roaches to tank damage, and your Zerglings to surround units and SCVs once the opportunity is right.Your primary targets once you break in are SCVs and attacking units; however you may choose to snipe important add-ons like tech labs or reactors. AVOID targeting structures that can lift off (generally) since better damage can be done elsewhere.Once again it is crucial to have a clear transition point (which should usually be 62 supply) as well as a planned mid-game follow-up. I recommend the aggressive Muta-Bane transition, since you’re already mining a fair bit of gas and your two-base is already about half-saturated, so all you have to do is start a Lair and drone to full 2-base saturation to go for the Mutalisks. Also, your opponent may be ahead in tech since you invested in only Roach/Ravager, which means you may not be able to take a third base (against Banshees for example) until your Spire is done.



Muta-Bane "All-In"



+ Show Spoiler + Tutorial: Muta-Bane All-In (Or is it?)



Replay Pack: Muta-Bane All-In (Or is it?)



Build Order:



13 Overlord

17 Hatchery

18 Pool

18 Gas

19 Overlord

19-21 Zerglings

21-25 Queens

29 Zergling Speed (@ 100 -- remain mining gas)

32 Queen

34 Overlord/Injects (2:45)

36 Lair (3:00)

36 2nd Gas (3:20)

@3:30 Overlord scout (Hellbats)

44 Spine (3:30~ -- can be earlier)

46 Double gas expansion (3:40)

44 Overlord

44-52 Drones (optional Speedlings/2nd Spine for Hellbat timings)

52 Spire/Overseer (4:05)

52 Overlordsx2

52-60 Drones (optional Speedlings)

60 Third Hatchery (5:10)

60-76 Mutaliskx8 (5:20)



8 Mutalisks pop by 6:00



76+ Evolution Chamberx2, Baneling Nest

Drone third base fully while pressuring with Mutalisks

Start +1/+1 and Baneling Speed

@ 60 Workers, macro hatchery and switch into Ling-Bane production



8:20 – Engage Aggressively with +1/+1 Ling-Bane-Muta OR Play defensively while teching and taking a fourth.



This build is reminiscent of two-base Mutalisk openings in HotS; however it is more focused on mass Zerglings in the mid-game. The first goal is to quickly saturate two bases while teching to a 4:00 Spire. Starting 8 Mutalisks by 5:30, you'll be able to repel any early drops or banshees and apply counter-aggression of your own. The goal is never to mass Mutalisks because Liberators are so powerful; 8 is the perfect amount to give you map control, force turrets and anti-air, and keep you safe from most types of pressure.



It also gives you freedom to drone up your third base by 6:30, at which point you'll be able to afford 4-5 Hatcheries worth of Zergling production. Essential you use a 3-base economy with 4 gas to fuel a massive mid-game with +1/+1 Speedling-Baneling (upgrades finish around 8:00). You'd be surprised how many Zergling-Baneling you can afford on a 60 Drone economy; and if your opponent goes heavy Liberator you can add some Corruptors and go more Zergling-heavy.



One of the awesome things about this build is its versatility in the mid-game. Early on, you’re very limited and contained to your two bases because you’re trying to maximize your economy so that you can afford those early Mutalisks. But once the Mutas are out, sky’s the limit.



You definitely want to use them to shut down Liberators/Drops and pressure Terran while you safely Drone your third. But once your third is saturated, you have every opportunity to mix it up. I recommend going for +1/+1 Ling-Bane off of 4-5 Hatcheries and only 4 gas -- very Zergling-centric, since it flows really well and will keep you safe from any Terran attacks while allowing you to be aggressive yourself. A lot of the time, you can kill the Terran with overwhelming Ling-Bane numbers, or at least be in a comfortable situation to tech to Hive and Ultralisks.



But ultimately you don’t have to go +1/+1 Ling-Bane! You could do +1/+1 Roach-Ravager instead; or you could tech +2/+2 and Hive earlier. There is a lot of room for stylistic adaptation . 13 Overlord17 Hatchery18 Pool18 Gas19 Overlord19-21 Zerglings21-25 Queens29 Zergling Speed (@ 100 -- remain mining gas)32 Queen34 Overlord/Injects (2:45)36 Lair (3:00)36 2nd Gas (3:20)@3:30 Overlord scout (Hellbats)44 Spine (3:30~ -- can be earlier)46 Double gas expansion (3:40)44 Overlord44-52 Drones (optional Speedlings/2nd Spine for Hellbat timings)52 Spire/Overseer (4:05)52 Overlordsx252-60 Drones (optional Speedlings)60 Third Hatchery (5:10)60-76 Mutaliskx8 (5:20)76+ Evolution Chamberx2, Baneling NestDrone third base fully while pressuring with MutalisksStart +1/+1 and Baneling Speed@ 60 Workers, macro hatchery and switch into Ling-Bane productionThis build is reminiscent of two-base Mutalisk openings in HotS; however it is more focused on mass Zerglings in the mid-game. The first goal is to quickly saturate two bases while teching to a 4:00 Spire. Starting 8 Mutalisks by 5:30, you'll be able to repel any early drops or banshees and apply counter-aggression of your own. The goal is never to mass Mutalisks because Liberators are so powerful; 8 is the perfect amount to give you map control, force turrets and anti-air, and keep you safe from most types of pressure.It also gives you freedom to drone up your third base by 6:30, at which point you'll be able to afford 4-5 Hatcheries worth of Zergling production. Essential you use a 3-base economy with 4 gas to fuel a massive mid-game with +1/+1 Speedling-Baneling (upgrades finish around 8:00). You'd be surprised how many Zergling-Baneling you can afford on a 60 Drone economy; and if your opponent goes heavy Liberator you can add some Corruptors and go more Zergling-heavy.One of the awesome things about this build is its versatility in the mid-game. Early on, you’re very limited and contained to your two bases because you’re trying to maximize your economy so that you can afford those early Mutalisks. But once the Mutas are out, sky’s the limit.You definitely want to use them to shut down Liberators/Drops and pressure Terran while you safely Drone your third. But once your third is saturated, you have every opportunity to mix it up. I recommend going for +1/+1 Ling-Bane off of 4-5 Hatcheries and only 4 gas --, since it flows really well and will keep you safe from any Terran attacks while allowing you to be aggressive yourself. A lot of the time, you can kill the Terran with overwhelming Ling-Bane numbers, or at least be in a comfortable situation to tech to Hive and Ultralisks.But ultimately you don’t have to go +1/+1 Ling-Bane! You could do +1/+1 Roach-Ravager instead; or you could tech +2/+2 and Hive earlier. There is a lot of room for stylistic adaptation



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GleaM Profile Joined June 2011 United States 207 Posts Last Edited: 2016-01-08 04:12:55 #2

KawaiiSCV Profile Joined October 2015 20 Posts #3 Cool builds, thanks for the guide.

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts #4 On January 15 2016 05:22 KawaiiSCV wrote:

Cool builds, thanks for the guide.

Np! Thanks for breaking the eerie silence that GleaM started lol Np! Thanks for breaking the eerie silence that GleaM started lol Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

Damusson Profile Joined December 2014 Canada 54 Posts #5 Thanks for guides Tang! These look nice, going to give them a try tonight.

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts #6



Here's a 5-hour vod featuring a lot of ZvT games: Update: Still using the builds quite a bit on ladder (especially the ling-bane and muta-bane).Here's a 5-hour vod featuring a lot of ZvT games: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/v/37434245 Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

IcemanAsi Profile Joined March 2011 Israel 672 Posts #7 I pretty much made the 2base muta here my go to build in zvt, as I find it shuts down any kind of cute techy play and an assortment of aggressive builds. I was wondering however how you recommend responding to both the hellbat attacks and the quick double medivac marine drop.

Beelzebub1 Profile Joined May 2015 641 Posts #8 On May 20 2016 03:58 IcemanAsi wrote:

I pretty much made the 2base muta here my go to build in zvt, as I find it shuts down any kind of cute techy play and an assortment of aggressive builds. I was wondering however how you recommend responding to both the hellbat attacks and the quick double medivac marine drop.



I've been losing to this build constantly (the Maru double drop thing) and 2 things I've learned..



You HAVE to scout for the lack of third command center otherwise you'll be totally clueless and auto lose



You HAVE to pretty much open safety Roach Warren or it's auto lose, you simply don't have enough larvae to build speedlings in sufficient numbers, and you would need massive numbers of lings, stimmed marines make 0/0 speedlings just a flat out waste of resources.



It sucks that Zerg is constantly the victim to auto lose aggression builds against Terran but that's how they designed the game, Terran needs to all in before Hive to win and Zerg needs to survive to Hive, welcome to LOTV ZvT.. I've been losing to this build constantly (the Maru double drop thing) and 2 things I've learned..You HAVE to scout for the lack of third command center otherwise you'll be totally clueless and auto loseYou HAVE to pretty much open safety Roach Warren or it's auto lose, you simply don't have enough larvae to build speedlings in sufficient numbers, and you would need massive numbers of lings, stimmed marines make 0/0 speedlings just a flat out waste of resources.It sucks that Zerg is constantly the victim to auto lose aggression builds against Terran but that's how they designed the game, Terran needs to all in before Hive to win and Zerg needs to survive to Hive, welcome to LOTV ZvT..

RaiZ Profile Blog Joined April 2003 2807 Posts #9 The queens are a great defensive unit. By the time he arrives with his dropped marines, I'm pretty sure you can have at least 6 queens. But yeah, it's kinda hard to defend all the 3 bases (need to split your army). Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde

isrtor2 Profile Joined September 2011 74 Posts #10 Hi tang, another great post.

I would add that you need to watch out for widowmines as you attack, they can be out on the map, on the ramp, behind the ramp, so you might need to use a small group of zerglings to move ahead of the army and also scout the ramp all the way to the top to see maybe theres a mine behind the wall.



Would be nice to see ling drop builds, or maybe someone has allready done a post on that, potentially with queens and overlord speed. If you know your opponent never scouts early game its possible to 1 base bust too.



Out of all the builds, the 2 base muta seems weakest because terran could be going 3 base after starport and then getting libs to defend the mutalisk. If he went for fast production, he could also just outright attack while building missile turrerts, both options are strong against 2 base muta. On the other hand, the bane bust or the roachravager don't have hard counters, terran needs to have exceptionally good building placement and micro to defend them properly(=taking minimal damage).

Railgan Profile Joined August 2010 Switzerland 1483 Posts #11 Somethings never change. One of those things is Tang releasing quirky all in builds! Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc

Beelzebub1 Profile Joined May 2015 641 Posts #12 @Istor I agree, 2 base Mutalisk is borderline unviable in LOTV, standard builds and timings can easily make you auto lose if you're using it against Terran.

IcemanAsi Profile Joined March 2011 Israel 672 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-20 22:54:26 #13 On May 21 2016 01:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:

@Istor I agree, 2 base Mutalisk is borderline unviable in LOTV, standard builds and timings can easily make you auto lose if you're using it against Terran.



I have a higer then 60% win rate with the 2base muta build against high diamond and low masters so I really don't think it's 'unviable'. No idea why you would think this.



The reason I'm asking here is that I'm seeing a rising popularity in the double medivac marine drop at ~5:50 which is an insta-lose if you don't adjust your build, what I usually do is, if I think it's coming I make bane nest after spire and make a few banes to hold that first drop. But I was wondering what people who are better at me, like Tang, think is the best response. I have a higer then 60% win rate with the 2base muta build against high diamond and low masters so I really don't think it's 'unviable'. No idea why you would think this.The reason I'm asking here is that I'm seeing a rising popularity in the double medivac marine drop at ~5:50 which is an insta-lose if you don't adjust your build, what I usually do is, if I think it's coming I make bane nest after spire and make a few banes to hold that first drop. But I was wondering what people who are better at me, like Tang, think is the best response.

Railgan Profile Joined August 2010 Switzerland 1483 Posts #14



It uses queens + 3 roaches to defend against the drops while getting mutas out.



If you want to play 2 hatch muta vs Terran you can just play my 3 Roach opener.It uses queens + 3 roaches to defend against the drops while getting mutas out. Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc

IcemanAsi Profile Joined March 2011 Israel 672 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-22 18:32:30 #15



I'm asking about an adaptation to a very specific build to a very specific build and so far the response are 'build isn't viable' ( which is wrong ) and 'pick a diffrent build' which is fine but not really an answer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the three roach build but I'm not looking for a wild change, I'm looking for the smallest possible change to the build, I'm asking exactly because my variation with banes before muta feels like too much a deviation. Same goes to the idea of making a roach warren and building roaches to hold the first drop. it's a fine advice but it takes the build in a completely different path, and I think it's too much.



I'm currently thinking about holding drones at 52 supply to make 52-60 lings and adding two extra queens, so I'll have 5 queens and 16 lings when the drop hits, that should be more then enough and only take me from 8 to 6 mutas.



The build and the counter can be seen almost one for one here:

Guys, this isn't helping.I'm asking about an adaptation to a very specific build to a very specific build and so far the response are 'build isn't viable' ( which is wrong ) and 'pick a diffrent build' which is fine but not really an answer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the three roach build but I'm not looking for a wild change, I'm looking for the smallest possible change to the build, I'm asking exactly because my variation with banes before muta feels like too much a deviation. Same goes to the idea of making a roach warren and building roaches to hold the first drop. it's a fine advice but it takes the build in a completely different path, and I think it's too much.I'm currently thinking about holding drones at 52 supply to make 52-60 lings and adding two extra queens, so I'll have 5 queens and 16 lings when the drop hits, that should be more then enough and only take me from 8 to 6 mutas.The build and the counter can be seen almost one for one here:

Pursuit_ Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 1319 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-22 21:19:56 #16 On May 23 2016 02:44 IcemanAsi wrote:

Guys, this isn't helping.



I'm asking about an adaptation to a very specific build to a very specific build and so far the response are 'build isn't viable' ( which is wrong ) and 'pick a diffrent build' which is fine but not really an answer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the three roach build but I'm not looking for a wild change, I'm looking for the smallest possible change to the build, I'm asking exactly because my variation with banes before muta feels like too much a deviation. Same goes to the idea of making a roach warren and building roaches to hold the first drop. it's a fine advice but it takes the build in a completely different path, and I think it's too much.



I'm currently thinking about holding drones at 52 supply to make 52-60 lings and adding two extra queens, so I'll have 5 queens and 16 lings when the drop hits, that should be more then enough and only take me from 8 to 6 mutas.



The build and the counter can be seen almost one for one here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gc9gjywu60 Guys, this isn't helping.I'm asking about an adaptation to a very specific build to a very specific build and so far the response are 'build isn't viable' ( which is wrong ) and 'pick a diffrent build' which is fine but not really an answer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the three roach build but I'm not looking for a wild change, I'm looking for the smallest possible change to the build, I'm asking exactly because my variation with banes before muta feels like too much a deviation. Same goes to the idea of making a roach warren and building roaches to hold the first drop. it's a fine advice but it takes the build in a completely different path, and I think it's too much.I'm currently thinking about holding drones at 52 supply to make 52-60 lings and adding two extra queens, so I'll have 5 queens and 16 lings when the drop hits, that should be more then enough and only take me from 8 to 6 mutas.The build and the counter can be seen almost one for one here:



The build seems pretty easy to scout with an overlord to me, all you really need to see is 2 rax before factory and you know this is coming. Since Terran opens reaper -> reactor + second rax you have plenty of time for the overlord to scout this and still get out alive IMO. Also the late factory, lack of any hellions, low-ish marine count, reactor built on factory with starport built next to it and no gas at the natural should all be good scouting indicators to look for (actually I think there is a variation that gets an extra gas at the natural and goes into a 2 base marine / tank / medivac / liberator all-in behind it).



To hold I think all you need to do is delay your mutas in favor of speedlings and turn some of your initial lings into banes. Target medivacs down with queens and just overwhelm the marines with zerglings. If you scout it early enough Terran has like 0 units at home (maybe a couple rines in a bunker + whatever he makes, the timings on this are really tight for Terran) and no map control (so he wont really know what you have out on the map) so when he drops in theory you could mass up a bunch of ling / bling and bust the front ~5:15 when the medivacs are halfway across the map and do some serious damage and use your reinforcements to clean up at home if he doesn't pull back to defend. The build seems pretty easy to scout with an overlord to me, all you really need to see is 2 rax before factory and you know this is coming. Since Terran opens reaper -> reactor + second rax you have plenty of time for the overlord to scout this and still get out alive IMO. Also the late factory, lack of any hellions, low-ish marine count, reactor built on factory with starport built next to it and no gas at the natural should all be good scouting indicators to look for (actually I think there is a variation that gets an extra gas at the natural and goes into a 2 base marine / tank / medivac / liberator all-in behind it).To hold I think all you need to do is delay your mutas in favor of speedlings and turn some of your initial lings into banes. Target medivacs down with queens and just overwhelm the marines with zerglings. If you scout it early enough Terran has like 0 units at home (maybe a couple rines in a bunker + whatever he makes, the timings on this are really tight for Terran) and no map control (so he wont really know what you have out on the map) so when he drops in theory you could mass up a bunch of ling / bling and bust the front ~5:15 when the medivacs are halfway across the map and do some serious damage and use your reinforcements to clean up at home if he doesn't pull back to defend. In Somnis Veritas

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10243 Posts #17 Any mid / top master level Terran will shut down the hatch / pool ling bling all ins so easily with just a few reapers / hellion / 1 widow mine / tankivac / bunker / proper micro , etc etc, same thing with the little roach ravager / ling all in as well, these builds will only work up to a certain level, after that it is just way too easy to stop as a Terran player.



Not to mention 3 Rax reaper will just shut down either one of these builds without much effort from the Terran player. AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

IcemanAsi Profile Joined March 2011 Israel 672 Posts #18 On May 23 2016 05:05 Pursuit_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 23 2016 02:44 IcemanAsi wrote:

Guys, this isn't helping.



I'm asking about an adaptation to a very specific build to a very specific build and so far the response are 'build isn't viable' ( which is wrong ) and 'pick a diffrent build' which is fine but not really an answer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the three roach build but I'm not looking for a wild change, I'm looking for the smallest possible change to the build, I'm asking exactly because my variation with banes before muta feels like too much a deviation. Same goes to the idea of making a roach warren and building roaches to hold the first drop. it's a fine advice but it takes the build in a completely different path, and I think it's too much.



I'm currently thinking about holding drones at 52 supply to make 52-60 lings and adding two extra queens, so I'll have 5 queens and 16 lings when the drop hits, that should be more then enough and only take me from 8 to 6 mutas.



The build and the counter can be seen almost one for one here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gc9gjywu60 Guys, this isn't helping.I'm asking about an adaptation to a very specific build to a very specific build and so far the response are 'build isn't viable' ( which is wrong ) and 'pick a diffrent build' which is fine but not really an answer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the three roach build but I'm not looking for a wild change, I'm looking for the smallest possible change to the build, I'm asking exactly because my variation with banes before muta feels like too much a deviation. Same goes to the idea of making a roach warren and building roaches to hold the first drop. it's a fine advice but it takes the build in a completely different path, and I think it's too much.I'm currently thinking about holding drones at 52 supply to make 52-60 lings and adding two extra queens, so I'll have 5 queens and 16 lings when the drop hits, that should be more then enough and only take me from 8 to 6 mutas.The build and the counter can be seen almost one for one here:



The build seems pretty easy to scout with an overlord to me, all you really need to see is 2 rax before factory and you know this is coming. Since Terran opens reaper -> reactor + second rax you have plenty of time for the overlord to scout this and still get out alive IMO. Also the late factory, lack of any hellions, low-ish marine count, reactor built on factory with starport built next to it and no gas at the natural should all be good scouting indicators to look for (actually I think there is a variation that gets an extra gas at the natural and goes into a 2 base marine / tank / medivac / liberator all-in behind it).



To hold I think all you need to do is delay your mutas in favor of speedlings and turn some of your initial lings into banes. Target medivacs down with queens and just overwhelm the marines with zerglings. If you scout it early enough Terran has like 0 units at home (maybe a couple rines in a bunker + whatever he makes, the timings on this are really tight for Terran) and no map control (so he wont really know what you have out on the map) so when he drops in theory you could mass up a bunch of ling / bling and bust the front ~5:15 when the medivacs are halfway across the map and do some serious damage and use your reinforcements to clean up at home if he doesn't pull back to defend. The build seems pretty easy to scout with an overlord to me, all you really need to see is 2 rax before factory and you know this is coming. Since Terran opens reaper -> reactor + second rax you have plenty of time for the overlord to scout this and still get out alive IMO. Also the late factory, lack of any hellions, low-ish marine count, reactor built on factory with starport built next to it and no gas at the natural should all be good scouting indicators to look for (actually I think there is a variation that gets an extra gas at the natural and goes into a 2 base marine / tank / medivac / liberator all-in behind it).To hold I think all you need to do is delay your mutas in favor of speedlings and turn some of your initial lings into banes. Target medivacs down with queens and just overwhelm the marines with zerglings. If you scout it early enough Terran has like 0 units at home (maybe a couple rines in a bunker + whatever he makes, the timings on this are really tight for Terran) and no map control (so he wont really know what you have out on the map) so when he drops in theory you could mass up a bunch of ling / bling and bust the front ~5:15 when the medivacs are halfway across the map and do some serious damage and use your reinforcements to clean up at home if he doesn't pull back to defend.



Delaying the mutas and going for faster banes is basically what I've been doing, thou I don't think going for a bust is a good idea as there is now way you can clean up the drop, double medivac stim marines will chew through three queens and anything under 20 lings without losing a marine. You're basically going for a base race against terran who will just float a building and win. You can hold it with the banes and lings at home but I feels it delays your mutas too much and with the investment in spire I really think it's important to make use of it. I've had a couple games yesterday going for the two extra queens and while I eventually lost the late game I was ahead after holding the drop and going to mid game, with my third up and a tech advantage.





Delaying the mutas and going for faster banes is basically what I've been doing, thou I don't think going for a bust is a good idea as there is now way you can clean up the drop, double medivac stim marines will chew through three queens and anything under 20 lings without losing a marine. You're basically going for a base race against terran who will just float a building and win. You can hold it with the banes and lings at home but I feels it delays your mutas too much and with the investment in spire I really think it's important to make use of it. I've had a couple games yesterday going for the two extra queens and while I eventually lost the late game I was ahead after holding the drop and going to mid game, with my third up and a tech advantage.

Railgan Profile Joined August 2010 Switzerland 1483 Posts #19 On May 23 2016 15:19 GGzerG wrote:

Any mid / top master level Terran will shut down the hatch / pool ling bling all ins so easily with just a few reapers / hellion / 1 widow mine / tankivac / bunker / proper micro , etc etc, same thing with the little roach ravager / ling all in as well, these builds will only work up to a certain level, after that it is just way too easy to stop as a Terran player.



Not to mention 3 Rax reaper will just shut down either one of these builds without much effort from the Terran player.

These are Tang's build... They are always easy to shut down These are Tang's build... They are always easy to shut down Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts #20 On May 24 2016 15:53 Railgan wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 23 2016 15:19 GGzerG wrote:

Any mid / top master level Terran will shut down the hatch / pool ling bling all ins so easily with just a few reapers / hellion / 1 widow mine / tankivac / bunker / proper micro , etc etc, same thing with the little roach ravager / ling all in as well, these builds will only work up to a certain level, after that it is just way too easy to stop as a Terran player.



Not to mention 3 Rax reaper will just shut down either one of these builds without much effort from the Terran player.

These are Tang's build... They are always easy to shut down These are Tang's build... They are always easy to shut down

Funny, I don't see you shutting down my builds in ladder play. 10-2 if memory serves. Funny, I don't see you shutting down my builds in ladder play. 10-2 if memory serves. Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

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