dfs Profile Joined June 2010 Russian Federation 2340 Posts Last Edited: 2014-12-22 14:11:15 #1 Dota Chaos, about the benefits of The International and the situation of esports clubs.

by Virtus.pro Sneg1 (CEO)



First came players, then came tournaments, then came managers, then came clubs. This sequence created fundamentally wrong conditions for the current ecosystem in esports. At first, all the communication went between tournaments and players, where managers were just gofers. Tournament organizers used to be satisfied with young players, who would not be too picky or make a fuss, so they could do whatever they want. Simply because the tournament is a rich event and the players are just kids playing computer games. Managers did not decide anything. At best, manager was 1/6th of the team, whom the players shared winnings with. Nowadays, when tournaments grew exponentially, they started to need guarantees, because individual players are not self-sufficient: make them visas, buy them tickets, pay them salary, calm them down, organize a collective promotion event, etc. Someone has to do all this work. However, nobody expected that the clubs-organizations will become very expensive, and that by wedging in the link between tournaments and players they will have to take much more than you would be able to by working only with players, otherwise there would be nothing to maintain the clubs with. To this day, Valve strongly supports this system by working directly with players on The International. Such position in no way supports the emergence of norms to create clear processes of the «club-players» relationship.



The winnings in the big sports – are the winnings of the clubs, not the players. They fight for it, invest in players, create infrastructure, to get these winnings, Also yes, clubs sometimes get paid more money for the own fact of participating in tournaments of the big sports than the winnings themselves are worth. Esports clubs have no income from tournament broadcasts or merchandising. Even if you win the top tournament, the income from it is just a percentage from the winnings that in 8 out of 10 cases isn’t even enough to cover the travel costs and, of course, the prestige. Monetizing this prestige is incredibly hard, and in many cases even impossible. «Hello, this is my-organization-name, we got to the Dota world cup and placed 10-12th» - in the big sports this is cool, in the esports this is “failure, tourists, must change the roster” (from the community) and «here are the tickets, food and some money – you have done well» (from the organizers)



In esports, the winnings belong to the players, who, best-case scenario, give 15% to the organizations. Right now, the organizations are unable to change this process, because the players will say that they will live by themselves, like how Team Secret does, for example. Alternatively, another club might pick up your players when you will say that you will raise the winnings threshold. This creates a huge preponderance towards game publishers and players, when private tournaments and clubs are fighting for survival on the brink of extinction. The 4-5 exceptions are no more than just exceptions.



I.e. in the current reality, the clubs appear as parasites in the food chain in the eyes of many gamers. This is categorically wrong, because only clubs bring the stability to the system. Were there many clubs that appeared lately? There are the same Na`VI, EG, Fnatic, VP and the same Chinese organizations on the scene… Were there many successful new organizations, except C9? The answer is simple – investing is unprofitable, the way to get the money back is unclear, even if you win. The pool of profitable sponsors is too limited and the percentages of the winnings matter only for the top 5 of The International. The situation started to change in CS: GO, because stickers – is a good plus for the organizations, and for many managers things started to be clearer – if the team is playing in major events then it’s a plus. So far, the situation is Dota is completely reversed.



There are no contracts between clubs and organizations – is the answer to why you cannot get the money back through the court. The players do not pay attention to the details when they see the $100500 prize pool announcement, because the tournament was already announced, sometimes even listing the teams without asking them first, and the qualifications already start tomorrow… Of course, the federation of top clubs will fix many problems, though there is one big «but». If football and basketball are not owned by anyone, the esports scene also has the big guys – game publishers, who pursue their own goals. Why should they adjust to the «teams-players» structure?



You cannot make clear rules between tournaments and clubs. Even if you have discussed the norms, what would you do with The International? Valve would just say: «18 games in round robin, bo7, we work directly with players, you should be thankful». What could clubs do? Would they just bring the document they coordinated between themselves and say: «You know, you do not fit us». Pure mystic.



Even not the super top Dota team costs about 150-200 thousand USD a year, and this is hardly the record (I mean the real teams, with salaries, boot camps, daily travelling allowances, etc.). What businessman would invest in all this, when even in 6 months it is unclear what would happen with The International, when there is no clear yearly tournament map, when the Valve politic is unclear…? Will there be an invite or not – is a roulette without predetermined rules. How to get this invite? No way to know for sure. Will the players sign contracts longer than time between one The International and the other? No, they will not.



In the end, right now in Dota, the clubs work for players and adjust to them, not the other way around. So long as this will stay the same, so long as Valve will work with players, not with the organizations – there will be chaos. I cannot say that Riot look much better against all this, because when Valve has absolutely no rules, Riot has too many, without any freedom of choices. If they say you can’t – it means you can’t.



I do not say that Valve or Riot are bad companies, they have their own global view and they pursue their own commercial interest. I have only described the reality, they way it looks for the clubs. I think that CS: GO has the best system in esports right now: there is no main league or a tournament that break the system, there is a more or less defined schedule for a year, and the teams get their monetization through stickers. The more popular your team is the more promotion you get – the more money there is for the organization and the players. If you would add tournament accreditation and their plan for 2 years – it would become the best system. The gap between Dota 2 and CS: GO will only widen unless Dota changes its strategy.





These 4 rules will change the situation:

designate the winnings to the clubs, not the players;



send invites to the clubs, not the players;



have legal contracts according to the «publisher-tournament-club-player» scheme;



add tournaments and clubs accreditation/licensing from the game publishers.





Many will say that I want too much for the clubs. However, the same system works in the big sports too, except for the last point. Players will not lose from this system, because the clubs will become solvent, salaries will greatly increase, schools and academies will appear. Without those rules we can’t be called sports, the players can’t be called professionals, those same 50 odd guys, playing computer games for the big game publisher money, with mother-like clubs that care for those players, and these small children’s interest sections can’t be called esports tournaments. This is why you should not demand much from the clubs, because we can do too little, unfortunately.





Original (in russian) - http://virtus.pro/participate/blogosphere/main/110271/

Translated by - dfs First came players, then came tournaments, then came managers, then came clubs. This sequence created fundamentally wrong conditions for the current ecosystem in esports. At first, all the communication went between tournaments and players, where managers were just gofers. Tournament organizers used to be satisfied with young players, who would not be too picky or make a fuss, so they could do whatever they want. Simply because the tournament is a rich event and the players are just kids playing computer games. Managers did not decide anything. At best, manager was 1/6th of the team, whom the players shared winnings with. Nowadays, when tournaments grew exponentially, they started to need guarantees, because individual players are not self-sufficient: make them visas, buy them tickets, pay them salary, calm them down, organize a collective promotion event, etc. Someone has to do all this work. However, nobody expected that the clubs-organizations will become very expensive, and that by wedging in the link between tournaments and players they will have to take much more than you would be able to by working only with players, otherwise there would be nothing to maintain the clubs with. To this day, Valve strongly supports this system by working directly with players on The International. Such position in no way supports the emergence of norms to create clear processes of the «club-players» relationship.The winnings in the big sports – are the winnings of the clubs, not the players. They fight for it, invest in players, create infrastructure, to get these winnings, Also yes, clubs sometimes get paid more money for the own fact of participating in tournaments of the big sports than the winnings themselves are worth. Esports clubs have no income from tournament broadcasts or merchandising. Even if you win the top tournament, the income from it is just a percentage from the winnings that in 8 out of 10 cases isn’t even enough to cover the travel costs and, of course, the prestige. Monetizing this prestige is incredibly hard, and in many cases even impossible. «Hello, this is my-organization-name, we got to the Dota world cup and placed 10-12th» - in the big sports this is cool, in the esports this is “failure, tourists, must change the roster” (from the community) and «here are the tickets, food and some money – you have done well» (from the organizers)In esports, the winnings belong to the players, who, best-case scenario, give 15% to the organizations. Right now, the organizations are unable to change this process, because the players will say that they will live by themselves, like how Team Secret does, for example. Alternatively, another club might pick up your players when you will say that you will raise the winnings threshold. This creates a huge preponderance towards game publishers and players, when private tournaments and clubs are fighting for survival on the brink of extinction. The 4-5 exceptions are no more than just exceptions.I.e. in the current reality, the clubs appear as parasites in the food chain in the eyes of many gamers. This is categorically wrong, because only clubs bring the stability to the system. Were there many clubs that appeared lately? There are the same Na`VI, EG, Fnatic, VP and the same Chinese organizations on the scene… Were there many successful new organizations, except C9? The answer is simple – investing is unprofitable, the way to get the money back is unclear, even if you win. The pool of profitable sponsors is too limited and the percentages of the winnings matter only for the top 5 of The International. The situation started to change in CS: GO, because stickers – is a good plus for the organizations, and for many managers things started to be clearer – if the team is playing in major events then it’s a plus. So far, the situation is Dota is completely reversed.There are no contracts between clubs and organizations – is the answer to why you cannot get the money back through the court. The players do not pay attention to the details when they see the $100500 prize pool announcement, because the tournament was already announced, sometimes even listing the teams without asking them first, and the qualifications already start tomorrow… Of course, the federation of top clubs will fix many problems, though there is one big «but». If football and basketball are not owned by anyone, the esports scene also has the big guys – game publishers, who pursue their own goals. Why should they adjust to the «teams-players» structure?You cannot make clear rules between tournaments and clubs. Even if you have discussed the norms, what would you do with The International? Valve would just say: «18 games in round robin, bo7, we work directly with players, you should be thankful». What could clubs do? Would they just bring the document they coordinated between themselves and say: «You know, you do not fit us». Pure mystic.Even not the super top Dota team costs about 150-200 thousand USD a year, and this is hardly the record (I mean the real teams, with salaries, boot camps, daily travelling allowances, etc.). What businessman would invest in all this, when even in 6 months it is unclear what would happen with The International, when there is no clear yearly tournament map, when the Valve politic is unclear…? Will there be an invite or not – is a roulette without predetermined rules. How to get this invite? No way to know for sure. Will the players sign contracts longer than time between one The International and the other? No, they will not.In the end, right now in Dota, the clubs work for players and adjust to them, not the other way around. So long as this will stay the same, so long as Valve will work with players, not with the organizations – there will be chaos. I cannot say that Riot look much better against all this, because when Valve has absolutely no rules, Riot has too many, without any freedom of choices. If they say you can’t – it means you can’t.I do not say that Valve or Riot are bad companies, they have their own global view and they pursue their own commercial interest. I have only described the reality, they way it looks for the clubs. I think that CS: GO has the best system in esports right now: there is no main league or a tournament that break the system, there is a more or less defined schedule for a year, and the teams get their monetization through stickers. The more popular your team is the more promotion you get – the more money there is for the organization and the players. If you would add tournament accreditation and their plan for 2 years – it would become the best system. The gap between Dota 2 and CS: GO will only widen unless Dota changes its strategy.Many will say that I want too much for the clubs. However, the same system works in the big sports too, except for the last point. Players will not lose from this system, because the clubs will become solvent, salaries will greatly increase, schools and academies will appear. Without those rules we can’t be called sports, the players can’t be called professionals, those same 50 odd guys, playing computer games for the big game publisher money, with mother-like clubs that care for those players, and these small children’s interest sections can’t be called esports tournaments. This is why you should not demand much from the clubs, because we can do too little, unfortunately. http://i.imgur.com/Q1jSb9X.jpg (c) Shiro; http://i.imgur.com/lSDLLKb.png (c) drav

TanGeng Profile Joined January 2009 Sanya 5606 Posts Last Edited: 2014-12-22 14:21:03 #2 Well his solutions are favors a club-centric market structure. If clubs can provide the marketing and monetize their own brand name and player popularity though.



Then clubs have to pay the players really well. In fact if they can pay very well, they can even buy out the player's side of The International deal, and get their players to tell Valve to deal directly with the club.



As for monetizing, they can sell shirts or host their own tournaments or whatever. Club have to provide a source of income and show that give them more market power is good for the general scene first. Then they can get the list handed to them. Moderator 我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部

MirageTaN Profile Joined June 2012 Singapore 454 Posts #3 Beautiful speech and I agree that esports should look towards sports like football and basketball for a clear system, and it would clear the chaos by a huge margin. however if u have a manager like Speed gaming's manager, then U are fucked, because how are u supposed to trust the manager, and once the trust is gone, you will have drama and unhappiness. I am also a supportor of Dota becoming more like CS:GO but instead of stickers, you can have banners of your favorite team or even the team could engage in the dota 2 item market like what EG did and maybe sell merchandise like TeamLiquid or C9 for extra money. Stability is a huge deal now in Dota. Some players arent willing to commit to a team as there is no real guarantee at a monthly salary as we alrdy have news of teams not paying players despite promising them a monthly salary. #TLWIN TI7, TLDota BEST TL

meegrean Profile Joined May 2008 Thailand 1493 Posts #4 Looks reasonable, but I'm guessing Dota is not big enough for clubs yet. Tactical feeding specialist

Zocat Profile Joined April 2010 Germany 118 Posts #5 On December 22 2014 23:06 dfs wrote:

The winnings in the big sports – are the winnings of the clubs, not the players.



The fans in the big sports - are the fans of the clubs, not the players.



I consider myself a fan of a football club. While I like some players more than others - and I like some players outside of my team as well - the club is the important thing.

If my club would change every single player I would be a bit sad, but I would still be fan of the club (and it's new players) instead of being a fan of the new team of the old players.



In eSports most often I'm the fan of a player/combination of players. I doesn't matter what team they play for. If a complete team moves from i.e. Navi to VirtusPro, the fans will go with the team and won't be a fan of Navi & their new roster.





The role/importance for teams is completely different in eSports compared to "big sports". The fans in the big sports - are the fans of the clubs, not the players.I consider myself a fan of a football club. While I like some players more than others - and I like some players outside of my team as well - the club is the important thing.If my club would change every single player I would be a bit sad, but I would still be fan of the club (and it's new players) instead of being a fan of the new team of the old players.In eSports most often I'm the fan of a player/combination of players. I doesn't matter what team they play for. If a complete team moves from i.e. Navi to VirtusPro, the fans will go with the team and won't be a fan of Navi & their new roster.The role/importance for teams is completely different in eSports compared to "big sports".

elt Profile Joined July 2010 Thailand 314 Posts #6 I strongly disagree with his suggestions, mostly because of the number of what-ifs. Ranting ensues, references to football (especially English Premier League structure).



Firstly Dota teams and the competition in Dota, apart from having a 'team' of 'players', has next to nothing in common with league-based sports like football. Let's drop the best case scenario for the top teams who will be likely to win tournaments, get prize money and fund these 'clubs'; in Dota the equivalent of middle of the table Premier League teams would be insolvent or broke, while the rich teams would just get richer. There is no 'pool' of broadcasting money to keep smaller teams afloat, sponsorships largely depend on the marketing power of team owners, ad revenue is probably a pittance.



Admittedly that's not too different from the situation we have now, but there is always 'the dream' i.e. being invited to TI. An accreditation system would essentially mean 'if you're not on these list of teams, there's no chance of you being invited to TI' and puts a great deal of power and influence in the hands of managers and team owners regarding who gets to be on the team. When it comes down to it however, Dota is a game and the players are kids. In football if you don't like one of your teammates, you suck it up and tough it out. The intimacy and depth of communication in Dota means that in the current situation players only team up with who they want to play with. If you force players who don't get along to keep playing with each other you end up with TI3 iG.



Regarding stability: the game itself is not stable. Look at the way Alliance fell off after winning TI3 to now. Once tournament winnings dry up, how are teams going to sustain those high salaries? That would eventually lead to a more even splitting of money to prop up teams, but is that what we want for Dota? I'm not convinced that there is enough to be made to support 'academies' as such; clubs would go for what they think are the 'best players' and every one else gets shafted. Would we be able to see a new EternalEnvy if only 'accredited' teams can compete? We probably wouldn't see a team like Secret either, unless some rich vanity owner a la iG's wanted to splash out to assemble them.





tl;dr: esports != sports. Enforcing structure on an inherently unstable game with finite life span won't solve problems. (Under Construction)

pedrlz Profile Joined September 2012 Brazil 3017 Posts #7 On December 23 2014 00:01 Zocat wrote:

In eSports most often I'm the fan of a player/combination of players. I doesn't matter what team they play for. If a complete team moves from i.e. Navi to VirtusPro, the fans will go with the team and won't be a fan of Navi & their new roster.





The role/importance for teams is completely different in eSports compared to "big sports".

this is the main difference, most of fan of esports cheers for players, not clubs



but clubs still get some love, specially when you think like EG and TL being 'american', mouz being 'german', empire being 'russian', etc. this is the main difference, most of fan of esports cheers for players, not clubsbut clubs still get some love, specially when you think like EG and TL being 'american', mouz being 'german', empire being 'russian', etc.

Plansix Profile Joined April 2011 United States 44957 Posts #8 The whole posts sort of skips over the part of professional sports history where the players were treated like human garbage until they formed players unions. Hence the reason why Valve deals directly with players. I don't agree with the idea that the players would not lose out in this system, because by it is inevitable that some would.



I get where he is coming from, but the reason clubs existed in the past was that they provided the venue for the sport to be played(or brought the sport of the venue). This is not the case in Dota and clubs need to find a way to fit into the system, like EG and Na'Vi have. I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6

RuiBarbO Profile Joined August 2012 United States 424 Posts #9 Given that the author is a club CEO, I think it's safe to say that there's some intellectual bias going on here. It's a post about what clubs should be, which is fine, but it might be worth asking whether there are any alternative solutions to these issues that can come from the other interested parties. Not that I know enough about the administration of the scene to say for sure. Can someone please explain/how water falls with no rain?

zev318 Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 1764 Posts #10 i feel a lot of this OP is just a rant. if a team of 5 players think that they can take care of themselves (he used secret as an example), and handle the gaming side and the business side at the same time, then ya why shouldnt they be able to say fuck management taking a cut from us.





bludragen88 Profile Joined August 2008 United States 181 Posts #11 On December 23 2014 00:41 zev318 wrote:

i feel a lot of this OP is just a rant. if a team of 5 players think that they can take care of themselves (he used secret as an example), and handle the gaming side and the business side at the same time, then ya why shouldnt they be able to say fuck management taking a cut from us.







They should be able to go on their own if they want, but those players are not investing back into the scene (usually). I'm sure that the 5 players of navi would not have gone out to get a second team. While that team didn't exactly pan out, this is the sort of thing that can make the stable beyond this crop of long time famous pros.



Brood war did an excellent job with talent development, leading to an ever increasing level of skill and multiple generations of big names, and this was made possible by teams providing a stable training environment that developed amateurs into top flight pros. In dota if this does not happen, we may have old man fear still one of the best NA dota players in 5 years, because how will a new up and comer on a team like SNA or nar'vi ever catch up to him in training, experience and support? They should be able to go on their own if they want, but those players are not investing back into the scene (usually). I'm sure that the 5 players of navi would not have gone out to get a second team. While that team didn't exactly pan out, this is the sort of thing that can make the stable beyond this crop of long time famous pros.Brood war did an excellent job with talent development, leading to an ever increasing level of skill and multiple generations of big names, and this was made possible by teams providing a stable training environment that developed amateurs into top flight pros. In dota if this does not happen, we may have old man fear still one of the best NA dota players in 5 years, because how will a new up and comer on a team like SNA or nar'vi ever catch up to him in training, experience and support?

Plansix Profile Joined April 2011 United States 44957 Posts #12 Brood war had is super easy because they didn't have that pesky issue of having to pay your upcoming players, even if they were on your team, helping your stars train. You could put like 10+ players into a team house and force the new players to wash the dishes and clean up. Plus being supported by some of the largest tech companies in Korea and assistance from the government in an era before streaming.



But other than that, its like exactly the same as Dota. I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6

Salazarz Profile Joined April 2012 Korea (South) 1238 Posts #13 Fyi, viewers interests are much closer to club interests rather than player interests. Players want to get the most money for playing least dota against weakest competition possible. Challenging brackets and developing new talent goes 100% against players' interests, even though this is what every viewer wants. Well developed club infrastructure also leads to things like showmatches, merchandise, and other media content. With all the talk about tournament oversaturation, clubs could be providing alternative content in between big tourneys.



If running a dota2 team would be more attractive as a business, there would be far more competition for the signatures of top tier players, which in itself would ensure players wouldn't be getting screwed over. The problems start when players don't really have much of a choice in terms of sponsors / organizations to work with. Sure, it's possible for a team to exist without extra personnel in management etc, but it's not an optimal situation - neither for the players, and even less so for the viewers.

zeo Profile Joined October 2009 Serbia 3338 Posts Last Edited: 2014-12-22 17:17:19 #14 On December 23 2014 00:30 pedrlz wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 23 2014 00:01 Zocat wrote:

In eSports most often I'm the fan of a player/combination of players. I doesn't matter what team they play for. If a complete team moves from i.e. Navi to VirtusPro, the fans will go with the team and won't be a fan of Navi & their new roster.





The role/importance for teams is completely different in eSports compared to "big sports".

this is the main difference, most of fan of esports cheers for players, not clubs



but clubs still get some love, specially when you think like EG and TL being 'american', mouz being 'german', empire being 'russian', etc. this is the main difference, most of fan of esports cheers for players, not clubsbut clubs still get some love, specially when you think like EG and TL being 'american', mouz being 'german', empire being 'russian', etc.

My experience was quite different. Being a Brood War fan and following that scene for many years teams were the alpha and omega of everything. The reason why BW because so big and accepted in the mainstream wasn't because of the OSL/MSL. It was because of Proleague.



Players come and go, teams live on. So a few players won a million dollars, thats great... next day they retire. A million dollars just left your sport.



edit: Dota right now is like tennis with only one grand slam a year and many many more mouths to feed. My experience was quite different. Being a Brood War fan and following that scene for many years teams were the alpha and omega of everything. The reason why BW because so big and accepted in the mainstream wasn't because of the OSL/MSL. It was because of Proleague.Players come and go, teams live on. So a few players won a million dollars, thats great... next day they retire. A million dollars just left your sport.edit: Dota right now is like tennis with only one grand slam a year and many many more mouths to feed. | Chelsea Football Club <3 | Winner of General forum survivor 2015!

bludragen88 Profile Joined August 2008 United States 181 Posts #15 On December 23 2014 02:14 zeo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 23 2014 00:30 pedrlz wrote:

On December 23 2014 00:01 Zocat wrote:

In eSports most often I'm the fan of a player/combination of players. I doesn't matter what team they play for. If a complete team moves from i.e. Navi to VirtusPro, the fans will go with the team and won't be a fan of Navi & their new roster.





The role/importance for teams is completely different in eSports compared to "big sports".

this is the main difference, most of fan of esports cheers for players, not clubs



but clubs still get some love, specially when you think like EG and TL being 'american', mouz being 'german', empire being 'russian', etc. this is the main difference, most of fan of esports cheers for players, not clubsbut clubs still get some love, specially when you think like EG and TL being 'american', mouz being 'german', empire being 'russian', etc.

My experience was quite different. Being a Brood War fan and following that scene for many years teams were the alpha and omega of everything. The reason why BW because so big and accepted in the mainstream wasn't because of the OSL/MSL. It was because of Proleague.



Players come and go, teams live on. So a few players won a million dollars, thats great... next day they retire. A million dollars just left your sport.



edit: Dota right now is like tennis with only one grand slam a year and many many more mouths to feed. My experience was quite different. Being a Brood War fan and following that scene for many years teams were the alpha and omega of everything. The reason why BW because so big and accepted in the mainstream wasn't because of the OSL/MSL. It was because of Proleague.Players come and go, teams live on. So a few players won a million dollars, thats great... next day they retire. A million dollars just left your sport.edit: Dota right now is like tennis with only one grand slam a year and many many more mouths to feed.



Actually, tennis has many more mouths to feed than Dota. They have 2000+ players in their world rankings, and there are definitely tons more people who play and aspire to get to the main pro circuits who are not yet there. And each player also needs some sort of support - coaches, people to train with, medical advice/treatment and equipment. This is why they can have tournaments most weekends, with 4 grand slams, and why people worry about sustainability and T2/T3 teams in dota. Actually, tennis has many more mouths to feed than Dota. They have 2000+ players in their world rankings, and there are definitely tons more people who play and aspire to get to the main pro circuits who are not yet there. And each player also needs some sort of support - coaches, people to train with, medical advice/treatment and equipment. This is why they can have tournaments most weekends, with 4 grand slams, and why people worry about sustainability and T2/T3 teams in dota.

TanGeng Profile Joined January 2009 Sanya 5606 Posts #16 On December 23 2014 02:14 zeo wrote:

edit: Dota right now is like tennis with only one grand slam a year and many many more mouths to feed.



The one grand-slam a year sentiment is fairly correct. Part of the reason why this half of the year seems so pointless is because of the lack of high profile tournament at the mid year mark. If there was another tournament that could boast >1million total prize at this time of the year, it would really liven up the scene pretty quickly.



If we get to the point where the only tournament that matters is the year end one for the big players, then we have about 8 months of dead time to grind through. Then might as well grind through it with tier2 teams and the odd tier 1 team instead of having all of them playing. The one grand-slam a year sentiment is fairly correct. Part of the reason why this half of the year seems so pointless is because of the lack of high profile tournament at the mid year mark. If there was another tournament that could boast >1million total prize at this time of the year, it would really liven up the scene pretty quickly.If we get to the point where the only tournament that matters is the year end one for the big players, then we have about 8 months of dead time to grind through. Then might as well grind through it with tier2 teams and the odd tier 1 team instead of having all of them playing. Moderator 我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部

MrCon Profile Joined August 2010 France 6584 Posts #17 Valve had a good idea with pennants, but all that suddenly disappeared with the rest of their promises of supporting the teams, they prefer taking everything for themselves and having a dying scene...

They could do so much, having pro giving lessons, having pennants or stickers, basically anything to have money go directly to the teams. Instead they do TI, with 10M prizepool paid by the community, if at least the 16th team could win enough to sustain itself for a year that could do it, but nope, they need big numbers to advertise the TI lottery.





Someone with more time than me should organize a league with 100% (or 90%) of tickets go directly to the teams in the form of a monthly salary.

WolfintheSheep Profile Joined June 2011 Canada 9755 Posts #18 On December 23 2014 07:05 MrCon wrote:

Someone with more time than me should organize a league with 100% (or 90%) of tickets go directly to the teams in the form of a monthly salary.

This is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a while...



Who is going to organize an entire league with no revenue?



If the ticket money is going straight into player's pockets, why would they even compete?



If there's no competition, no cosmetics to buy (unless you expect those to be donated for free as well), then why would people buy tickets for it?



You're basically saying "Donate us hundreds of thousand of dollars and we'll play lots of meaningless showmatches for you". This is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a while...Who is going to organize an entirewith no revenue?If the ticket money is going straight into player's pockets, why would they even compete?If there's no competition, no cosmetics to buy (unless you expect those to be donated for free as well), then why would people buy tickets for it?You're basically saying "Donate us hundreds of thousand of dollars and we'll play lots of meaningless showmatches for you". Average means I'm better than half of you.

Cgales Profile Joined December 2014 Bangladesh 3 Posts #19 --- Nuked ---

MrCon Profile Joined August 2010 France 6584 Posts #20 On December 23 2014 10:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 23 2014 07:05 MrCon wrote:

Someone with more time than me should organize a league with 100% (or 90%) of tickets go directly to the teams in the form of a monthly salary.

This is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a while...



Who is going to organize an entire league with no revenue?



If the ticket money is going straight into player's pockets, why would they even compete?



If there's no competition, no cosmetics to buy (unless you expect those to be donated for free as well), then why would people buy tickets for it?



You're basically saying "Donate us hundreds of thousand of dollars and we'll play lots of meaningless showmatches for you". This is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a while...Who is going to organize an entirewith no revenue?If there's no competition, no cosmetics to buy (unless you expect those to be donated for free as well), then why would people buy tickets for it?You're basically saying "Donate us hundreds of thousand of dollars and we'll play lots of meaningless showmatches for you".

Well they will compete for the money obviously, more money would go to highest placing teams.

Your post makes no sense as it would be the same as any tournament. Well they will compete for the money obviously, more money would go to highest placing teams.Your post makes no sense as it would be the same as any tournament.

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