[2012-01-18 12::12:43] ahel: I declare the first scheduled discussion open!

[2012-01-18 12::12:50] ahel: :D

[2012-01-18 12::15:02] ¬ª nforgerit left the chat room.

[2012-01-18 12::15:10] ahel: but i must admit i haven't gone further than yesterday:intro>canons and fugues

[2012-01-18 12::15:38] ahel: what have you done till today?

[2012-01-18 12::19:06] mrilhan: I've read up until mathematical logic: a synopsis.

[2012-01-18 12::19:13] mrilhan: just after fugues.

[2012-01-18 12::20:49] mrilhan: um. hello? :>

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[2012-01-18 12::30:58] Maths: oh damn, UTC+1, not -1 derp, I've read the same as mrilhan

[2012-01-18 12::32:59] mrilhan: phew. glad to hear, thought I was behind from day 1

[2012-01-18 12::34:27] ahel: ahah

[2012-01-18 12::35:09] Maths: so, thoughts? (I am bad at starting discussions)

[2012-01-18 12::36:19] colo: (this is my first one, so I don't know what to expect)

[2012-01-18 12::37:17] ahel: me either :) well there here i didn't find anything to talk about. he is delineating what he is going to talk about later, more in deep

[2012-01-18 12::37:25] ahel: *depth

[2012-01-18 12::38:08] ahel: \s\there\till

[2012-01-18 12::38:15] mrilhan: well, the references to PM are a bit overwhelming.

[2012-01-18 12::38:39] colo: in my case, the references to *music* are a bit overwhelming LOL :)

[2012-01-18 12::38:53] Maths: i'm with colo on this one

[2012-01-18 12::39:07] genesiss: what is PM?

[2012-01-18 12::39:16] ahel: what is PM? (i'm not reading it in english)

[2012-01-18 12::39:22] genesiss: :>

[2012-01-18 12::39:23] colo: Principia Mathematica

[2012-01-18 12::39:24] mrilhan: principia mathematica,

[2012-01-18 12::39:32] colo: book by russel and whitehead :)

[2012-01-18 12::39:46] mrilhan: 1910-1913, volumes of literature on the principles of mathematics

[2012-01-18 12::40:01] ahel: ahah in this channel there is a bit of echo

[2012-01-18 12::40:10] mrilhan: :[D

[2012-01-18 12::41:27] mrilhan: so Godel retrospectively proves that PM is self-referential, and that all such proofs must be by design, is what I understood from this part.

[2012-01-18 12::41:28] ahel: how does it happened that you both have read a book that has been metaphysically killed by Godel?

[2012-01-18 12::42:03] mrilhan: I haven't, thats what I was trying to say when I said it was overwhelming; I'm learning both what it is and why it was 'disproved' by Godel at the same time

[2012-01-18 12::42:21] genesiss: where did you read that?

[2012-01-18 12::42:29] mrilhan: what the hell is going on :>

[2012-01-18 12::42:34] genesiss: lol

[2012-01-18 12::42:38] Maths: ahel: the mathematics in it is still valid

[2012-01-18 12::43:01] genesiss: In first two parts of the introduction its all about Bach, fugues and canons

[2012-01-18 12::43:19] genesiss: I can't remember seeing anything about PM or stuff that you are talking about

[2012-01-18 12::43:27] Maths: it's just that the grand aim of the project, to create a system in which every true statement of the system has a formal proof, is impossible (as godel proved)

[2012-01-18 12::43:32] colo: I agree with Maths, the this is that the *goal* was unreachable

[2012-01-18 12::43:39] Maths: genesiss: uhh, might be the next section

[2012-01-18 12::43:45] Maths: genesiss: or two

[2012-01-18 12::43:48] genesiss: ah, ok

[2012-01-18 12::44:54] ahel: oh, Maths. i've read a B.Russell's biography and i remembered that something went wrong with PM after a bit, but i cannot check with wiki today :((

[2012-01-18 12::45:07] mrilhan: Maths: ... that idea is related to the brain being part of a system that its mirroring, right? so since its a system thats trying to provide formal proof, because it still depends on many other pieces of literature which depend on others and so forth goes the cycle, it actually is self-referential in the sense that they must all use each other to explain one another?

[2012-01-18 12::45:30] Maths: mrilhan: not really

[2012-01-18 12::46:02] Maths: mrilhan: PM is an attempt to derive all of mathematics from a small set of axioms (some set theory ones)

[2012-01-18 12::46:51] ahel: yeah Maths, you are right, as I recall :)

[2012-01-18 12::47:22] Maths: mrilhan: what godel showed was that there was a way of encoding statements about PM into (some) of the things PM manipulated, the postive integers

[2012-01-18 12::47:29] colo: it was actually beautiful :) I have a wallpaper with the proof that 1+1=2

[2012-01-18 12::47:41] Taboen: So do you guys have any questions regarding the music? I might be able to answer that

[2012-01-18 12::47:52] Maths: colo: really small writing or really large poster?

[2012-01-18 12::48:40] colo: wallpaper for the desktop. I'd give you the link (in wallbase), but the site's down because of SOPA

[2012-01-18 12::49:47] colo: btw, if you wanna check wikipedia, you could look it up on google, and use the google cache, instead

[2012-01-18 12::50:12] Maths: just add ?banner=none to the wikipedia URL

[2012-01-18 12::50:23] mrilhan: Maths: the godel code. the encoding of statements /about/ PM into numbers or statements that are represented by numbers?

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[2012-01-18 12::51:13] ahel: Taboen: i've studied it for 5years, so i've catched the meaning of what he was saying.

[2012-01-18 12::51:14] ahel: but a question came out in my mind: how was possible for Bach -for instance- to imagine such a complicated melody?

[2012-01-18 12::51:14] ahel: do you suppose he has some trick?

[2012-01-18 12::53:26] Taboen: What do you mean, complicated melody?

[2012-01-18 12::53:47] colo: I suppose it must be analogous to being good at mathematics... With enough practice, you get pretty good at spotting patterns (?)

[2012-01-18 12::53:50] ahel: 6 voices

[2012-01-18 12::54:12] ¬ª ahel was demoted from operator by ChanServ.

[2012-01-18 12::54:20] Taboen: ah

[2012-01-18 12::54:28] Taboen: Lots of practice :p

[2012-01-18 12::54:58] mrilhan: he had imagined/written similarly complicated melodies, he had been working up to it?

[2012-01-18 12::55:16] Taboen: He had been writing melodies 8 to 10 hours a day for 60 years almost at that point

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[2012-01-18 12::56:17] colo: personally, I only got the idea behind the "musical offering"... There was quite a bit I didn't understand, but which I suspect wasn't all that important, like the number of voices, canons, fugues, themes, etc.

[2012-01-18 12::56:21] ahel: exceeded the 10k-hours rule :)

[2012-01-18 12::56:29] Maths: damn, dinner calls

[2012-01-18 12::56:36] Taboen: haha, ahel. Yes :)

[2012-01-18 12::56:44] colo: odd... I just had lunch :)

[2012-01-18 12::57:21] Maths: colo: I'm on UTC

[2012-01-18 12::57:51] Maths: on reflection, my nick may make me seem more confident about the logic parts of the book... oh well

[2012-01-18 12::58:13] colo: I think that's pretty interesting. Where does everybody live? I'm in El Salvador

[2012-01-18 12::58:20] Taboen: Netherlands

[2012-01-18 12::58:22] mrilhan: istanbul/turkey :>

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[2012-01-18 12::58:28] ahel: ahah, so redditors overseas have the chance to attend 2 discussion :)

[2012-01-18 12::58:34] ahel: i'm from Italy

[2012-01-18 12::58:37] Taboen: :p

[2012-01-18 12::58:53] Maths: england

[2012-01-18 12::59:14] mrilhan: its a good time. our US-based friends could be at work though

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[2012-01-18 12::59:59] colo: I'm supposed to leave in about a half-hour

[2012-01-18 13::00:27] ahel: well Maths, to be UTC you could be only from UK, Eire or Iceland :D

[2012-01-18 13::01:02] ahel: brb. needs a shower

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[2012-01-18 13::01:10] mrilhan: not too much to talk about in this first intro huh? obviously most of what is confusing will be explained in the book

[2012-01-18 13::01:16] Taboen: :p

[2012-01-18 13::01:26] mrilhan: well, it was good meeting you all anyway. when's the next meeting, how much are we to read?

[2012-01-18 13::01:45] ¬ª genesiss joined the chat room.

[2012-01-18 13::01:59] ahel: well from tomorrow there will be the post on reddit (web), so i don't kno

[2012-01-18 13::02:02] ahel: *w

[2012-01-18 13::02:13] Taboen: The schedule can be found on reddit

[2012-01-18 13::02:16] Taboen: Doh!

[2012-01-18 13::02:28] mrilhan: :) I thought we were going to decide on it today, my bad..

[2012-01-18 13::02:34] ahel: do you like discussing here, we can continue freely.

[2012-01-18 13::02:50] Taboen: I've got an idea, I'll record a quick canon for you guys

[2012-01-18 13::02:57] mrilhan: can't really look onto reddit btw :)

[2012-01-18 13::02:59] mrilhan: oh well.

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[2012-01-18 13::03:39] ahel: i suggest to see you there tomorrow to the same hour (or a bit later?)

[2012-01-18 13::04:35] mrilhan: yeah, I'm going to be around. tonight and tomorrow, no problems.

[2012-01-18 13::04:51] ahel: and we talk about how much are we comfortable using web over irc and then one day of these, we choose if continue scheduling the meeting, or using it only to chat freely.

[2012-01-18 13::05:18] ahel: that's my proposal, feel free to tell anything.

[2012-01-18 13::05:55] colo: GEB: the confession room

[2012-01-18 13::06:09] ahel: ahah

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[2012-01-18 13::07:08] ahel: well see you later.

[2012-01-18 13::07:19] colo: well... as long as I'm here... there is one thing I didn't understand

[2012-01-18 13::07:33] colo: what's an "extemporization"?

[2012-01-18 13::08:15] Taboen: hmm

[2012-01-18 13::08:27] Taboen: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Extemporization - To perform an act or utter something in an impromptu manner; improvise

[2012-01-18 13::09:17] colo: hm :P

[2012-01-18 13::09:33] Taboen: I have the Dutch version, so I'm not sure of the context it was used in

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[2012-01-18 13::10:57] colo: bach was famous for his "extemporization" LOL

[2012-01-18 13::11:06] Taboen: ah yes, so improvisation

[2012-01-18 13::11:17] Taboen: He was able to improvise complicated songs on the spot

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[2012-01-18 13::18:16] colo: gotta go :P see you guys in about 8 hours