electricpugilist Profile Joined December 2011 United States 5 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-05 05:37:40 #1 X

Peleus Profile Joined March 2010 Australia 418 Posts #2 Now THIS is a first post.



Awesome read and I agree 100%. I pray someone with the ability to make an event like this occur reads and takes to heart what you're saying. At the moment they could do it even for no other reason that it's unique compared to the relative glut of high level tournaments out there. Off the back of home story cup we can see how well unique and different ideas can go.



If only we had the money and influence to do some of these things ourselves.

VoirDire Profile Joined February 2009 Sweden 1847 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-09 05:02:17 #3 Potential drawbacks/risks include:

- The slow movement of players amongst the divisions/tiers could be seen as not reflective of the current skill level of players. If the best player in the world entered the open tournament, it would be seven events (seven months) until they moved through the open tournament, silver tournament, and pro tiers to play in the championship match. That being said, a great player will earn their deserved spot over time, it simply isn't instant as in a tournament.

This is a pretty huge drawback imho, especially with the randomness inherit in sc2. Factors like maps, best/worst match-up, "metagame" shifts and patches will add additional randomness to the advancement of better players. The best players only have a win rate of 60-70% (korean TLPD) and they can lose a BoX to a lesser player any day.



This is a pretty huge drawback imho, especially with the randomness inherit in sc2. Factors like maps, best/worst match-up, "metagame" shifts and patches will add additional randomness to the advancement of better players. The best players only have a win rate of 60-70% (korean TLPD) and they can lose a BoX to a lesser player any day. If the best player in the world entered the open tournament, it would be seven events (seven months) until they moved through the open tournament, silver tournament, and pro tiers to play in the championship match.

This is assuming the best player doesn't lose a single BoX. If a player loses a series, he has to win two times to make up for that loss. In those 7 tiers of matches, 5 will be against top 24 players in the world (If I'm reading that right). If the top player a 75% win rate on average in BoX-series, he will have to win 21 out of 28 series. That's 2 years and 4 months, way to long in such a volatile game as starcraft. This is assuming the best player doesn't lose a single BoX. If a player loses a series, he has to win two times to make up for that loss. In those 7 tiers of matches, 5 will be against top 24 players in the world (If I'm reading that right). If the top player a 75% win rate on average in BoX-series, he will have to win 21 out of 28 series. That's 2 years and 4 months, way to long in such a volatile game as starcraft.

Azzur Profile Blog Joined July 2010 Australia 6083 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-09 05:06:24 #4 I disagree - I reckon esports (and more specifically SC2) is more suited to a tennis-like structure for tournaments or a champions league football (group stages followed by single-elimination) structure. Simple put, fans want to see more games being played.



You can't compare esports to MMA because it's not realistic for a MMA combatant to fight many times because of the recovery time needed. In contrast, football, tennis or esports doesn't need this recovery period and can produce more games.

LXR Profile Joined June 2011 356 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-09 05:17:47 #5 I think one way that current leagues can emphasize the emotional story is to try to tell more about the history of the player. Commentators usually talk about how there are so many boring moments in the game. Well I think they should be filled with interesting facts about the player's history. Maybe a game that the player won that made him really happy or a slump that made him practice really hard. These kind of tidbits really help the audience form a story around the player and decide who their favorites are!



Of course, this would require commentators who are really in with the players, but some I can think of are day9, Artosis, and Tasteless who talk with pro-gamers on a regular basis. Just tell us about some thought the player had before the game, or what his practice plans had been for a while.



We have a good start; Artosis usually mentions how HuK has had such a hard travel schedule and whatnot, but I think it's O.K. for us to go back farther. Talk about how he wasn't very good but through practice got a lot better. Talk about how some players had trouble finding a team, or how they felt when they switched teams. That gets everyone more emotionally involved, for the better!

electricpugilist Profile Joined December 2011 United States 5 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-05 05:38:20 #6 X

electricpugilist Profile Joined December 2011 United States 5 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-05 05:38:30 #7 X

XenoX101 Profile Joined February 2011 Australia 726 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-09 06:20:46 #8 I absolutely agree, the lack of player tiers in everything but the GSL to a degree (who have done reasonably with Code S, Code A and the Up & Downs) makes it less significant when a player wins or loses anything but the higher matches. It's so clear see how successful this is with the GSL with how much people talked about Boxer securing his Code S and how Huk lost his Code S to fall into Code A. This is what foreign tournaments need to start doing to make it more eventful when a player advances, and also to actually reward players for performing well despite not winning, it will give lesser players still some form of title to hold on to and make that match to retain their title a meaningful one even if its not amongst top tier players.



Actually, the most obvious example of this working is the leagues in SC2's ladder system, the amount of talk that surrounds the league system, promotions, demotions and the difference between the leagues is strong evidence that this kind of tier system creates a lot of meaning behind play, to the extent that people are even worried about playing because of the possibility of losing rank or dropping down from their league.

imbecile Profile Joined October 2009 563 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-09 07:36:53 #9 This kind of matches certainly could have their place.



But there is a reason why boxing and full contact fighting in general has the format it has: Usually, or at least highly likely, both participants in a fight are not able to have another fight for at least a few days. It puts just too much strain and injury on the body.



When you have sports where there is not such a high risk of injury, you will get brackets or similar formats, even in "single combat" type of competitions like wrestling and sumo and tennis. You are simply able to have more games and not too much risk to have to cancel in the later stages.



So, while starcraft can be very taxing, you still can reasonably expect a pro player to be able to play a dozen or more games every day over the course of a tounament.

Baituri Profile Joined June 2010 Netherlands 1498 Posts #10 I really like this idea and since I am a big MMA fan I understand it pretty well. I do see some problems that the SC2 scene has compared to the MMA (Or combat sports if you will) scene.



Fighters are under contract from the MMA organization they are fighting for. This means that they can only fight (most of the time) for that organization. Fighters fight for: UFC, Strikeforce, Bellator etc. and could maybe do a fight for Dream on new year or something. SC2 players will likely have to choose a organization like NASL or MLG or GSL or Dreamhack or something to compete in and let the other leagues pass by. They can maybe choose to go to an Homestory Cup or an Asus ROG Star Invite, but that is it.



Even if you allow them to compete in every organization or only 1 of the above organization will implement this system. You still don't have the time to prepair 1 month for a certain matchup.



I really like the idea of this, but I can't see it happening. It works for MMA because fighters can't fight a lot and there is more money in MMA (SC2 players can't fly all over the world for every event and organizations don't have the money to do it for them). And it works in MMA because fighters only fight for 1 organization and I can't see anyone (especially foreigners) only participating in 1 competition. It kind of works for the GSL, but that is mostly because that scene doesn't have the money to send their players to all the other tournaments and a lot of tournaments are invite only.







dicedicerevolution Profile Joined October 2009 United States 245 Posts #11 Spotlight this please, this post isn't getting anywhere near the amount of attention it deserves.

pitchatan Profile Joined July 2011 Sweden 6 Posts #12



The only problem would be the logistical part, for both players and audience.

Though it would work perfectly for a 5-6hour online event.



If anyone disagrees, please elaborate.

Considering that a game of starcraft is alot like an mma fight, where the game could end at any second or go for the full duration. I see this format working pretty well, or atleast between tournaments.The only problem would be the logistical part, for both players and audience.Though it would work perfectly for a 5-6hour online event.If anyone disagrees, please elaborate. huh? >-<

caradoc Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Canada 3015 Posts #13 Holy crap, I wasn't expecting anything coming to this thread, but this is an excellent wonderful analysis. I don't even have much of anything to add.



Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...

Clazziquai10 Profile Blog Joined August 2011 Singapore 1936 Posts #14 The idea of #1 contenders really reminds me of WWE lol.......I was actually wondering if adding in secondary titles like "TvZ champion" would add to the fun haha

ES_JohnClark Profile Joined April 2011 United States 1113 Posts #15



One thing we need to make clear though.. MLG is NOT a 'League'. A 'League' keeps stats, has a schedule in place, sets playoffs and is usually played over a longer period.



Right now.. eSports is set up more like 'Tennis'.. or even closer to 'Golf' (PGA). When talking about 'structure'.. as I do very often because I strongly believe that eSports will never really find its sustainable place in the 'sports' world until it adopts a more structured approach to the competition.... eSports is mostly comparable to 'Disc Golf' (or Frisbee Golf /



Having played as an Advanced player and traveled from 'Tournament' to tournament and seeing the PDGA grow... I have seen the potential that eSports has and the very strong similarities. I could go on and on about that and how similar they are.. but the biggest reason that eSports can be considered more like Professional Golf (Disc or Stick Golf).. is because esports is set up as a 'tournament structure'. The MLG and IPL are NOT leagues. NASL is a league. ESL has a league, ESEA has a league.



The OP lays out a lot of what is missing in eSports. The biggest missing component is 'structure' and more specifically a 'structure' more modeled after real sports and with a sustainable format that feeds the 'emotions' of the viewers. Check the MLG site right now and see if you can find results and brackets from previous events. They may be there..but they are hidden because as the OP points out each MLG tournament is really a separate event (I prefer to compare MLG to the WWE).



I wont ramble on any more.. but I will go back and read a lot of the replies. This looks to be a very good conversation and one in which desperately needs to be had.



My 2.5 cents... wow.. great written OP! Very well laid out and very valid points. A lot of the substance is right on.One thing we need to make clear though.. MLG is NOT a 'League'. A 'League' keeps stats, has a schedule in place, sets playoffs and is usually played over a longer period.Right now.. eSports is set up more like 'Tennis'.. or even closer to 'Golf' (PGA). When talking about 'structure'.. as I do very often because I strongly believe that eSports will never really find its sustainable place in the 'sports' world until it adopts a more structured approach to the competition.... eSports is mostly comparable to 'Disc Golf' (or Frisbee Golf / www.pdga.com) Having played as an Advanced player and traveled from 'Tournament' to tournament and seeing the PDGA grow... I have seen the potential that eSports has and the very strong similarities. I could go on and on about that and how similar they are.. but the biggest reason that eSports can be considered more like Professional Golf (Disc or Stick Golf).. is because esports is set up as a 'tournament structure'. The MLG and IPL are NOT leagues. NASL is a league. ESL has a league, ESEA has a league.The OP lays out a lot of what is missing in eSports. The biggest missing component is 'structure' and more specifically a 'structure' more modeled after real sports and with a sustainable format that feeds the 'emotions' of the viewers. Check the MLG site right now and see if you can find results and brackets from previous events. They may be there..but they are hidden because as the OP points out each MLG tournament is really a separate event (I prefer to compare MLG to the WWE).I wont ramble on any more.. but I will go back and read a lot of the replies. This looks to be a very good conversation and one in which desperately needs to be had.My 2.5 cents... Still Naked!

ES_JohnClark Profile Joined April 2011 United States 1113 Posts #16 BTW.. the 'Tier' levels are something I have proposed for years in eSports and something that would very much help define a sustainable structure that eSports can grow from. Still Naked!

Chill Profile Blog Joined January 2005 Australia 25649 Posts #17 Hmm it's an interesting thought. I don't agree with the suggestion, but you've put a lot of effort into this thread. Appreciate the effort Moderator

Poffel Profile Joined March 2011 471 Posts #18 I'd like to point out that during the time of the Pride Fighting Championship (1997-2007), the tournament format was actually more successful than the 'superfights' in regard to attendance of the events: While the 'regular' Pride shows usually drew about 10.000 to 20.000 live spectators, the tournaments (2000, 2003-2006) were attended by at least 40.000 people (up to about 90.000). So I'd argue that abandoning the tournament format in MMA had more to do with administrative problems and the increased likeliness of injury than with the popularity of 'superfights'.



Also, it's hard to argue against your point that people enjoy a strong narrative - however, I'd say that tournament format also provides a lot of opportunities for that... from the top of my head, I'd point to Naniwa's amazing run from the open pool to the championship at the first (?) MLG for an exciting narrative that couldn't possibly happen in a non-tournament format.



Aside from the criticism, I really like the idea of expanding the narrative beyond particular events, and even the promotion of a "world champion" of some sort sounds interesting - even though I'd rather have such developments within scope of existing structures than instead of them.

Golbat Profile Blog Joined September 2011 United States 497 Posts #19 I really like this type of idea. I think this kind of event structure could find a place between the IPL's and the MLG's as well as the smaller tournaments like Homestory cup. Perhaps it would work well as an online event, because I don't really see all of the players necessary to have such a large event make it out to a single location every month or so, or however often this event would occur, seeing as there would have to be Korean and Europeans flying to the US (Or US and Koreans flying to Europe or whatever whatever). Maybe it would be better if there were separate leagues for the NA, EU and KR players, with a less frequent global championship to crown the "Best in the world". I agree also that the GSL has it right in that it has a Code S/A/B dynamic and it is big news when a long time Code S player drops down (Huk) or a player who spends lots of time not even in Code A finally qualifies (DRG). Like why do u use an oven instead of a fire? Coz its fucking better at cooking, that doesnt mean you want the shit to burn.

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-09 18:43:12 #20 Wow someone else figured out MMA and SC are running in complete parallels. Good stuff.



And most likely yes the MMA model will be the better one, tournaments involve too much luck and randomness to ever gt the right person winning all the time. Although I fear it may never be actually used with every admin's reliance on tournaments.



Edit: Don't forget the first ever league in SC2 and one of the most popular events of the beta was ITL, with this exact same format. People loved it, pros still offer to play in it again for free and bug me all the time for it to come back. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

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