A newly floated bill that would allow Wisconsin residents to carry concealed weapons without getting permits, background checks or training would essentially let the state catch up with the latest thinking in gun law, according to backers who call the approach "constitutional carry."

Others, however, seem stunned at the idea that anyone who could lawfully own a gun could carry it just about anywhere, under a coat or in a purse, without any government oversight.

The Wisconsin Professional Police Association was neutral on past concealed-carry proposals, said Executive Director Jim Palmer, because of different views among rural and urban officers.

"Our group is likely to revisit our stance," he said. Since the no-permit proposal made the news, "We've been overwhelmed with members opposing that. It just seems absurd."

In Wisconsin, one of only two states (with Illinois) that currently ban any concealed weapons, it may indeed strike many as a radical idea.

But backers say no-strings-attached concealed carry is already the law in four states and has been proposed in about a dozen more that have had permit systems in place.

"Wisconsin gun owners know better than anyone they haven't enjoyed the rights people in other states have had for decades," said Nik Clark, chairman of Wisconsin Carry Inc. "Constitutional carry is our chance to get where other states are going, not where they used to be."

The state Legislature has passed a concealed-carry law twice before, and former Gov. Jim Doyle vetoed each one. But with Republicans now in control of the Legislature, and Republican Scott Walker in the governor's office, it is expected to come back and easily win approval.

Rep. Jeff Mursau (R-Crivitz) and Sen. Pam Galloway (R-Wausau) released two bills Wednesday. One would require applicants to be 21 or older and apply for a five-year permit that would cost $65. The same two legislators proposed a second bill - the one proponents call constitutional carry- in which anyone who could lawfully have a gun could carry it hidden, except in a few places, such as courthouses (judges and prosecutors could have guns, though), police stations, jails and school grounds.For a permit, you would have to be 21. In either case, you could not be a felon or have been ruled mentally incompetent.

A Senate committee will hold a hearing on both measures Thursday at the University of Wisconsin-Marathon County in Wausau. The same day, an Assembly committee will consider the bill on permits in a hearing at the state Capitol.

The bills also would allow loaded weapons to be carried in most vehicles, allow possession of electronic weapons such as Tasers and, in the case of the permit bill, keep the names of licensees secret, though law enforcement could see that information under some circumstances.

Businesses could still prohibit weapons on their premises, and prohibit employees from carrying weapons during work.

Mursau said he was waiting to see which approach Republicans in each house want to pursue. He said it was possible a training component would have to be added to the bill on permitting to get it through the Legislature.

Constitutional-carry supporters say the cost and bureaucracy of a permit process become a barrier for people who want to carry a gun for protection. They think the training requirement is just symbolism.

Training optional?

Proponents point out that no one needs specific training to openly carry a gun, which is already legal in Wisconsin, but that everyone they know wouldn't think of carrying one without some instruction.

Neighboring states do require training to get a concealed-carry permit. Michigan requires a minimum of eight hours; Minnesota just four. Iowa just says an applicant must have had any National Rifle Association or other handgun training, but doesn't require the instruction to include actual shooting. Some states that issue licenses to nonresidents that are recognized in several states, such as Florida, accept an applicant's certification that they've had a course elsewhere.

The history of Wisconsin hunter safety classes makes a compelling case for education. DNR statistics show that in 1966 - the year before formal hunter education began - there were 44 shooting incidents per 100,000 hunters in Wisconsin. By 1994, the rate had dropped to 4 per 100,000. And in 2010, it was 1.9 per 100,000, according to Tim Lawhern, enforcement division administrator for the DNR.

Hunters are required to take a 10-hour class that emphasizes safe firearm handling, including the four basic rules: treat every firearm as if it were loaded; always point the muzzle in a safe direction; be certain of your target and what's beyond; keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

Instructors who teach handgun courses say they also emphasize general and state-specific laws about the use of deadly force, knowing that most people who carry a gun for safety are at least contemplating using it against another person.

Most people who would carry a gun would get their own instruction if they weren't already proficient, Clark said.

He said that in Arizona, some firearms instructors worried that removal of required training and the permit process would put them out of business. But when the state did away with permitting, the instructors couldn't keep up with the demand, he said.

Instructors differ

Scott Bredl said he has had about 250 Wisconsin residents take a four-hour course, without any shooting, that allows them to get a Utah concealed-carry permit, recognized in 33 states. He said only a few hadn't had some other firearm instruction, such as an NRA handgun class or at least a Wisconsin hunter safety course.

He doesn't believe Wisconsin should require training.

"I think anyone serious about carrying a handgun would get it anyway," he said.

Other instructors disagree.

Greg Dobratz of Wautoma, a retired firearms instructor with the Milwaukee Police Department, a certified Wisconsin hunter education instructor and a member of the NRA, called both bills unacceptable in their current form.

"People should not only get a permit and take a class, but they should also be required to pass a proficiency test with the weapon they want to carry," said Dobratz, who served 32 years with the department.

If "you want to increase safety, you've got to have training and testing," he said.

Dobratz said training should include the "how to's, when to's and when not to's" of firearm use.

"It doesn't cut it to think a person could just sign a form and be allowed to carry" a concealed firearm, Dobratz said.

Dobratz also thinks firearms should be stored in cases and unloaded in vehicles.

Opponents fear tragedies

Jeri Bonavia, director of the Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort, has been a frequent counter to Clark at forums on gun laws. She said her group and others are studying the bills and reaching out to people to contact their lawmakers with concerns.

"We'd been hearing rumors since November this would happen," she said. "But we're somewhat surprised at the language; it looks like they've gone to the most extreme examples. Forty-eight other states may have concealed carry, but I guarantee they don't go this far. It's stunning."

Bonavia disputes the contention that more lawful concealed carry reduces crime.

"There is no real causal relationship between concealed carry and crime rates," she said, "but there is between laws allowing more firearms and firearm deaths."

Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke Jr. believes law-abiding residents should be able to carry guns, but he said he wants to learn more about constitutional carry before he decides if that's a good idea. No matter how the law might change, Clarke said it should become a felony with a mandatory three-year prison term to carry a concealed weapon in violation of it.

Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn agreed; violation of the current law is only a misdemeanor.

"The bills as currently drafted put the lives of my officers at risk," Flynn said. "They have to presume that when they approach someone on the street they're lawfully carrying.

"I think both are based on ideological, not practical, approaches."

The ideologues feel pretty confident.

James Fendry, director of Wisconsin Pro Gun Movement, said adoption of one, or both, of the bills is an absolute certainty. Some people would prefer a permit, he said, because it could allow carrying in all states under a pending federal law on reciprocity. But others shouldn't have their right to carry a gun limited by a precondition, he said.

"The truth is the NRA has this wrapped up. They don't have to compromise," he said.

"The time has come. Even Illinois is working on it. It's only whether Wisconsin will be the 49th or 50th state" to allow concealed carry, he said.

Patrick Marley and Paul A. Smith of the Journal Sentinel staff contributed to this report.