During a Wednesday Hardball discussion with former Democratic senator and presidential candidate Gary Hart, Matthews asked about “the ideological direction of the party right now” and added that Bernie Sanders is bringing a kind of 1960s message to Democratic politics.

The Hardball host then transitioned to discuss Hillary Clinton, making a dubious observation: “Hillary Clinton [is] more of a conservative in a sense of more of a traditional politician from the center, center.”

(This wasn't the first time Matthews offered this formulation. On Meet the Press in late May, Matthews insisted: “If Hillary Clinton is a lefty, I didn't know it, okay. She’s not a lefty. She is a centrist politician, a Democratic, a mainstream Democrat.”)

On Hardball, Matthews asked Hart how he would like to see this battle in the Democratic Party shake out. The former Colorado Democrat replied: "Today, I think Senator Sanders is rallying a base – a part of the Democratic base that has not been appealed to because of the so-called centrism that’s been going on and off in the Democratic Party. I've never quite understood what that was, but avoidance, I think, of controversial positions.

Hart added that he thinks “there is a chance for a generational change here.” After Matthews questioned Hart on who he’d support in the Democratic primaries in 2016, the former presidential candidate named Martin O’Malley (D-MD) as his favorite candidate.

Also wanting to get a word in about Donald Trump, Hart largely dismissed the billionaire as a product of high name ID. He noted that, right now, “all you hear about” is the media covering Trump. Hart elaborated: “[T]he polls...often reflect name recognition. You stop somebody on the street, you give them 10 or 15 names, half of those people will pick a name they've heard of. And who have they heard of recently but Donald Trump?”

The relevant portion of the transcript is below.