On a special episode of The Vergecast, chief product officer of Microsoft, Panos Panay, joins Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel and senior editor Tom Warren a few hours after Microsoft’s Surface hardware event to talk about the new Surface lineup — including the company’s upcoming dual-screen devices.

Panay also talks about why Microsoft is using Android for its Duo device, the company’s relationship with Google, and the future of the Surface Neo / Duo form factor. Below is a lightly edited transcript of the conversation.

Nilay Patel: Panos Panay, chief product officer at Microsoft. Welcome to The Vergecast.

Panos Panay: Thanks, man. It’s great to be here.

NP: Thank you for coming on.

I love it.

NP: Big day today.

We had a fun day. Team had a big day.

NP: I really want to talk about the Surface Duo, but you announced a whole bunch of other stuff.

Yeah, absolutely.

NP: So here’s my plan — because we’ve got to mention it all — I’m going to say the names of some products you announced, and you’re going to give me one sentence about them.

NP: Surface Pro 7.

Super powerful. It’s the product everybody loves.

NP: Surface Laptop [3] 13 [inches].

It’s the most beautiful thing you’ll set your eye on relative to a laptop.

NP: Surface Laptop [3] 15 [inches].

It competes with the 13 for beauty, but it’s a super beast in performance.

NP: This is great. You’re prepared for this. It’s amazing.

I live it, man. I’m prepared for anything.

NP: I was really not expecting you to be this crisp with it.

To be clear, I don’t prepare for anything. I have no time. I just have to show up and tell you what I’m thinking. I’m not sure what else is supposed to happen.

NP: Surface [Ear]buds.

Killer audio. Incredible audio. And then translation is, it’s sick. When you’re in PowerPoint translating on those things, it is a blast.

NP: It is amazing that you announced truly wireless headphones, and the killer use case is, like, “PowerPoint.”

Oh heck yeah, man. Are you kidding?

NP: That’s the most Microsoft thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life.

It was so good, though. I can’t explain it to you. Say whatever you want. It wasn’t a Microsoft thing. Everybody has headphones. Everybody has earbuds. Come on. Ask me whatever you want about the Earbuds. They are awesome. They really are awesome.

NP: It’s the [Surface] Pro X and the Neo and the Duo that I really want to talk about. The other stuff is really interesting. That’s why I wanted to make sure we mentioned them all.

It’s the core of our product line, and that’s what people use today. You know, we talk about where people are today and meeting them there. Then we talk about how this is as a team, how we get people to where they’re going. And then we land, making sure we have products for when they get there. And I think you’re talking about Neo and Duo are where products are going to be. I think Pro X is the one that moves people tech-forward a little bit. And the other products are the things you need right now.

NP: Obviously, the Earbuds are new, but the other ones seem like these are very careful refinements of things that people already love.

They are, and there’s a lot in there. The laptop is now repairable, but it’s the same beautiful product, you know? No screws, no trap doors, anything like that. That’s a big deal for commercial customers or even, you want to replace your keyboard or whatever. We can do it pretty easy. And so I think when we talk about making these objects of desire, if you will, and something precious, [that] you’re going to buy and take care of.

But in general, we’ve been pretty diligent about not letting anybody crack them open or repair them. Not that we tried to do that. It was just how the design came together. And now, we’ve been very diligent in our history and learning and just getting a little bit more mature as an organization, a team, how we build products that are a little more accessible to get into a little, a lot more inclusive. And so you start to see that on the laptops. So they’re refinements, yeah, but they’re also wholly reengineered.

NP: We talk about this every time, so I’m going to ask one question about the Pro 7. I bet you can guess what it is. It has USB-C. You did it.

I don’t even know why we want to talk about it. You love talking about this topic.

NP: Why USB-C and not Thunderbolt?

Tom Warren: That’s because of the Surface Connect, right?

Yeah, you get Surface Connect. You get everything you need out of the product through Surface Connect, especially the powerhouse customer. There are just trade-offs in anything when you’re designing something — what you’re doing with performance, battery, how you think about thickness — they’re all just subtle trade-offs. And at the end of the day, I thought if I didn’t do it, I’d come to this Vergecast, and you’d do nothing but complain.

And then we did it, and now you’re still complaining. Now I don’t know what to do.

NP: This is our role in the market.

You do an incredible job at it. You guys are really good at this.

NP: Let’s talk about the Pro X. It’s ARM. You’re making your own chip, the Surface SQ1 chip. You’re doing it in partnership with Qualcomm. The first question I got when I said, “What do people want to know?” on Twitter was about app support. How should people expect app support to work with Windows on ARM on that device?

That’s a great question. So the Windows team has done a phenomenal job, specifically because of this product. Driving forward, we talk a lot about how we’re going to create silicon or create a product where we can pull the whole ecosystem through and make sure we’re making the right investments across the board as Microsoft. And in this one, the Windows team, it’s incredible the work they’re doing to basically use emulating technology to run all apps.

NP: So you get everything?

You pretty much get everything. I mean, there’s going to be a few things that you don’t get. I think if you’re a user that wants to go into sort of the product or the app you can’t get or the software you can’t get, you don’t want Pro X anyway. That’s not your product. And so for the user that’s going to use that product, yeah, you get everything. I mean, Chrome runs on it. Chrome’s one of the biggest things where when you put the product out there, first feedback, if it doesn’t run Chrome, there’s immediate reaction. iTunes is another one.

NP: I get Chrome. I cannot say that I understand iTunes. You’ve said it to me a couple of times, and it’s surprising.

It’s actually true. I’m just looking at the data and, you know, those are both good products in many ways. Great products, really. One of the product ethos is, “Hey, where are our customers at?” Hence Android: where they at, and how do we support them? Let’s make sure we’re doing what we can.

NP: Who do you think the customer for the Pro X is?

You know, we have a bunch of fancy words to talk about that, but ultimately, when we designed it, it was for a tech-forward, mobile professional. That’s what it is. And so if you’re leaning into tech, and you want something a little bit cutting edge, this is a great product. It’s crazy cool. If you work on a train, a bus, a plane, if you’re ride-sharing in a car, you like working at the park or at Starbucks, that’s a mobile user to me. They use their products everywhere. It’s perfect for that.

NP: So, obviously, with the Qualcomm processor, you get always-on, you get built-in connectivity, you get a bunch of stuff that the ARM platform can do.

Yeah, that’s right.

NP: Is that what drove you to do ARM, or was it other stuff you just couldn’t do with x86?

No, there’s a lot of stuff. It’s not one variable, and check off that box, and say, “No, we’ve got it.” Instant on, it works. No, it’s not like that.

I think one of the things is: how do you push the form factor forward? So how do we manage the power, [performance], heat profile of a device? And that then dictates how thin you can push it and how much battery you have to put in it. Battery is basically a function of size. The bigger it is, the more battery life you have. And the bigger it is, the heavier the device is, the bigger it is, the thicker it is. How can we optimize the entire product line and then give you the best screen possible? Because there’s where the trade-off starts to fall in play.

The bigger your screen is, the more pixels you push. The brighter your screen is, the more damage to your battery life, in theory. The more battery life you need, the thicker your battery has to be. And now you’re in this trade-off of weight and thickness. And I think in the 2-in-1 category — and what we’re doing is pushing that category forward — it means this: making products thinner, lighter, faster, with more battery life. It’s not a complex equation. It is hard to solve for, but it’s not hard to understand that that’s what people need or want. And this chip does all that.

TW: Do you think you’ll get to this little of a design and that sort of trade-off on the Intel side?

For sure. Intel is doing some incredible work, but we think about all these products a little bit differently. But yeah, what Intel does, they’re incredible partners to us. They’ve been phenomenal in partnering and designing chipsets together.

I think it’s just that diversity is a great thing in the silicon world. In general, let customers have a choice. I think that’s all right. At the end of the day, though, I really want people to buy Surface, so it’s: what’s the right product? What’s the right chip to build it from? And I think SQ1 is a phenomenal step forward for a lot of reasons.

NP: Why build your own?

Because we want to design from the inside out from the beginning. And so when we have the steps, here’s what the product’s going to be, here’s what we want to deliver, here’s what we think we’re going to go after. You’ve got a couple of design points we wanted to hit.

And so we sat with the leaders over at Qualcomm, had great conversations, and got to the point of saying, “Let’s do it.”

NP: What was the biggest thing that you asked for that they didn’t have on the shelf?

It’s a combination of so many things, but to get to 5.3mm of thickness with all that performance, it was virtually impossible before we started this program.

NP: So this leads me to the Duo, which there’s...

Big jump.

NP: I’ve got a segue.

That’s an incredible jump. You’re going to only hear it because I feel like you just literally made up a segue.

NP: I really want to talk about the Duo.

I feel like you just wanted to say “Let’s talk about the Duo. Here’s my lead.”

NP: It’s sitting in front of me, and it’s taunting me.

That’s not my fault.

NP: The Duo has a Snapdragon 855. Why doesn’t it have an SQ1 on it? That’s my segue.

Because you don’t need to push that much wattage through the product. So now the design point for SQ1, it’s not a mobile processor. Let me clarify that for you. A mobile processor is going to push two to three watts, maybe two and a half, something like that. If you’re going to get to the SQ1, we’re pushing it seven, seven a half. When you’re pushing power through that thing, it’s now a PC architecture part.

The mobile architecture hasn’t really moved to the PC. There have been some mobile architecture PCs, but PC-architecture based products coming from mobile, that doesn’t exist. That’s what SQ1 does. You could push two 4K displays at 60Hz at the same time off of a mobile [chip]? Not possible. But you can on an SQ1. So the idea that all the IOs work, that Surface Connect works, that we can push what people come to expect from Surface. That’s what that part does. When you put the mobile processing in here, that’s what you need. That’s what it is.

NP: So you said, I think very directly, it’s not a phone. You said to our friend Lauren Goode at Wired, it’s not a phone. It seems like a phone. You can fold it the other way. It shows you a phone. You show people making calls with it.

Yeah, of course. Look, it’s a great phone. That’s not what I mean by “it’s not a phone.” I feel like “phone” is such a limiting word. And then you say, “well, smartphone.” I don’t even know what that means. And then phablet. I’m not sure what that is. But everything has an identifying factor to it. Even when we started Surface, people are like, “So it’s a tablet.” I’m like, “It’s not a tablet. It’s just not a tablet. It’s a Surface.” I don’t know what to say. And you want to categorize it, and put it there.

I think if you’re going to create a new category, you’re going to try to change things, push things forward. The minute you put it in a box, I think you’re lost. So I’ve been pretty resistant to that. Not because it doesn’t act like a great phone.

NP: It’s not coming out for a year, right? So holiday 2020. You’ve got a year to figure out how people are going to use it.

Yeah.

NP: But right now—

But for everyone listening, Pro X is coming out right now. So that’s, there’s a delta there, just to make sure.

NP: Right. And then the Neo, which is the larger—

They’re both holiday 2020.

NP: So dual screen is holiday 2020.

Yeah, I think this category kind of lights up 2020. Yeah, that’s a good way to say it.

NP: Well, it’s funny. The last time I talked to you, I remember we had a very spirited discussion about the Galaxy Fold, and you thought that was a fairly silly design decision to use a plastic screen.

I don’t remember saying that, really. I don’t think I said that. I may have, but I can’t remember.

NP: Plausible deniability’s fine! It turned out to have been a fairly silly design decision at that time. They’re doing it again, but that’s like a first-generation foldable in a different way. You’re doing two screens with a hinge, and you think a year from now, it’s actually going to start taking off.

I absolutely think so. Yeah. I think we’ve seen what dual-screen use brings, and we’ve tested thousands and thousands of scenarios with thousands of people. We measure so many different things. We measure the brain activity. We measure how people feel. We ask thousands of questions, and we have an incredible user research team, human factors team, from an inclusive design standpoint. Just thinking about how everyone would use this device, no matter who you are and all the way through. And yeah, I’m 100 percent sure at this point. Like I said, I think it’s a bold statement, but I really do believe in where this category can go. I hope. I’m pretty sure people will see it pretty quick.

NP: So just a history of technology: Microsoft was a dominant operating system vendor, a dominant platform vendor. There was a form factor shift to mobile. It created an entry point [for others]. We’ve seen how that played out. You think holiday 2020 is a form factor shift to dual screen that lets Microsoft get back in the mobile market?

I don’t think it happens that fast, no. I don’t think it happens that fast. I think it starts. I think you start to understand how much more productive and creative you can be on both Windows and Android. I think that consistency of it, whichever operating system you’re on, it still, you can be productive with two screens.

NP: But do you think people are going to buy this as a replacement for their phone?

Yeah, I think some people. Other people will just want it because maybe it’s cool. There’s something about it that’s attractive for sure. And I do think people will replace their phone. I think [some] people will buy it as a second device, and I think it works pretty well both ways.

NP: So talk to me about Android. What’s it like working with Google? What’s that relationship like? Is this a Play Store device?

Yeah, absolutely. Google search, for sure. Also Bing search. It’s pretty cool. There’s some great concepts between the two companies.

TW: But why Android?

Well, because those are the apps you want.

NP: It’s just that simple?

I don’t know how to answer it differently for you. Yeah. Because there’s hundreds of thousands of apps and you want them. And [Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella] and I talk about it, and it’s about meeting our customers where they are, where they’re going to be. And I don’t think the mobile application platform’s going anywhere anytime soon, and it’s pretty simple. I’m not trying to be smart about it, either. Like, literally, Tom, it’s: you need the apps.

Now, how do we get developers to look at the APIs that are going to be across the platforms and how you can think about a 360-degree hinge? How we can light up xCloud on the product with the game on one side, controls on the other? The way two screens interact with each other when you open two apps. You can kind of see the power of it pretty quick.

NP: He’s taunting us by showing us the device right now.

So you can just see it, right? You see you’re in mail, and what if you needed to copy something over and drag it over to your last app? These sorts of things that are complex tasks where you have to context-switch all the time. In this product, they come to life quick.

There’s a lot going on in the sense that if I were just to open the calendar for you. So there’s calendar, and I’ll just span it between the two screens. You see it come to life there. Watch the calendar snap on the seam, which I love. I mean, I celebrate this seam. It’s huge. Because it really does put apps in layers for you, or structures [them]. These structured thoughts happen, and you watch the brain light up, and things are easier. It’s pretty cool.

The things that can happen and you’re now in kind of this place where it becomes a little bit limitless in what you can create or do if you’re a developer. And that’s what we’re hoping for.

So for that reason, we came out with the products today, which was not a fun decision. We haven’t done that. I don’t know how to. So we’re learning, you know, humbly. I’ll tell you, we’re learning. I don’t know if we did the right thing or wrong thing, but we do want to inspire developers.

NP: How much do you think the product will change between now and holiday 2020?

The hardware won’t change at all. We’ve been designing this hardware for how long, Pete [Kyriacou, GM of Microsoft devices]? Three years? We’ve been in about three and a half. It’s been a long time. And I think you know that. You’ve unpacked it on me a couple of times with your unbelievable spy skills or whatever you got.

NP: It’s reporting. It’s called reporting.

Oh, reporting.

NP: That’s what that is.

Geez, I missed that. Do people curse on The Vergecast?

NP: Yeah, go nuts.

Okay. Thanks. Just checking.

NP: No FCC here.

You almost got me there. You almost got me.

NP: So historically, there’ve been a lot of companies that have tried to take Android and build software experiences on top of it. I would say, historically, those companies have not been as good at software is Microsoft, or as good at design as Microsoft. And Google has pulled them back. Is Google letting you build your own Android experience?

I don’t think this is a “letting” conversation at all. I think this is a partnering conversation. I think the conversations we’ve been having and the work we’ve done together, it’s pretty cool. Like, you can see it. If I go back one screen. Once you slide over here, look, check it out. You’ve got Google search here. You got the entire Microsoft feed here.

Hiroshi [Lockheimer, head of Android at Google] and I sat down. We had this conversation and it was, “Look, here’s the vision. We want to make the best of Microsoft on the Android that people know.” So the idea wasn’t... I mean, if you look here, you’ll see the app launcher come up just like you would have on an Android phone. And then if you pull down from the top, you’ll see the settings. Like we’re not trying to be—

NP: But that settings looks a little bit different than a standard. You’ve done some design work.

There’s some, of course. There’s the design work, but it’s what you know. It’s a Surface.

TW: Is it like an extension of the Microsoft Launcher [for Android]?

So the Launcher team is a huge part of this program. They’re amazing. You can think of it that way a little bit. We’re not putting Launcher on top. That’s not it. But the Launcher team is doing a ton of work bringing together this connected experience with the cloud. It’s very cool. Very cool. I won’t share too much because I can’t give too much of it away.

TW: So what are the gives and takes between Microsoft and Google. Are we going to see Google search integrated into Windows?

We’re probably not going to talk about that today, Tom. Not to be rude, but I think just... there’s a lot there. Not in gives and takes. That’s not what I mean. But in the sense of our relationship is, it’s building. it’s pretty deep-rooted, and we’re partnering. That’s the best way to think about it. I don’t think it’s give-and-take.

I think it’s about: what’s the right product to build for people? That’s how I feel. I think that’s how my counterparts over in Google feel, and that’s what we’re going to go do. I think people will love it, though. For that reason. Because that’s the ethos.

NP: Satya Nadella said today that Windows the operating system is not the whole point anymore. It’s apps and services. Microsoft has moved its entire business there. How are you thinking about Android? You make a whole line of Windows devices. How are you thinking about them as complements? How are they going to tie together? Or is Android the future for you?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You want to give customers what they want in the form factor that they’re using. It would be silly to be like, “Let’s shove...” We’ve learned this. “Let’s put the wrong operating system, the right operating system on the wrong product” or the other way around, pick your words.

But what’s the right operating system for the form factor? And in this case, on mobile devices, Android’s the obvious choice. But anything above that, Windows is everything. Superior for me in the product design. I’m not trying to sound arrogant, I promise you. It comes from a humble place, but my belief in Windows is so strong, and what you can accomplish with it.

Now to Satya’s point, how the OS disappears in the background, I think Microsoft does an incredible job of that, enabling people to be more productive and achieve and all the great things.

NP: So you’ve got Windows 10X, which is for the Neo, which is the dual-screen version [of Windows].

Yeah. That’s Windows.

NP: It is not going to come to different form factors? Is it exclusively for dual screen?

Think of it this way: right now, it’s for dual screen. I think it’s hard to use the word “exclusive” for anything right now. It’s so early. We’re learning, and I think that’s part of the growth mindset of the company. We have that filter.

We’re going to listen, and we got some time. We’re going to listen to developers pretty close. We’ve been looking at the products for three years, both of them. It’s been a while. It’s a blur. But yeah, you learn through this process. That’s a big part of product-making. And I’m not saying learn by making mistakes. We’re going to take our time, and get it right. I would say the form factor you’re looking at... You should just hold it just to feel it.

NP: Yes, please.

Just feel the hinge. I think the form factor is a third-generation form factor. This is not like, “Hey it’s first-gen. It might work.” That’s not the case. We’re literally on the third gen of that hinge, the third gen of that screen. Our partners are incredible. How we integrate the Gorilla glass, that’s all been failed through. Now, how we get that interaction model perfect and get connected with developers? That’s why we came out today. That was important.

NP: How soon can developers get their hands on these things?

You know, it depends. We’re working on the stability of the product in the builds and so forth. And the way hardware works, we got probably a couple more months. They’re going to have their hands on it and be running.

NP: Full-speed.

Yeah. It’s just a matter of shoring up the APIs and making sure we’re ready to go.

NP: What’s the pricing on that thing? It’s going to be like—

I’m not going to tell you. I’m not going to tell you.

NP: Am I going to be happy or unhappy?

Super happy.

NP: Describe my feelings in the future.

You will be elated.

NP: I like elated.

Yeah. I think you’ll be pretty pumped about it. I am. And so I think, when you say you’re on the third generation of hardware, you’re kind of pushing the boundary already on the silicon. You’re pushing your boundary on how this thing lays out, how the antennas are coming together. When I say happy, I think the value of the product you get for how much you’re paying, it’s there, and that’s what matters to customers.

NP: So last question is, just a big think about form factors, sizes, operating systems. You have one big competitor in Apple that is pretty good at phones.

Yeah.

NP: Pretty good at tablets.

Yeah.

NP: Pretty good at laptops.

Yeah. I’d say great at all those things.

NP: Google is pretty good at phones.

Yep.

NP: Pretty okay at laptops.

Okay.

NP: Horrible at tablets.

Okay.

NP: You guys are really good at laptops. Really good at Surface devices, which often look like tablets to me.

Yeah, it’s fine. You can say that.

NP: Historically not great at phones.

I think when you build a product, you just don’t think that way, but you identify it the way you want.

NP: There’s a gap that you’re bridging: Surface, phone, and the tablet. Does this just fill a hole for both [Microsoft and Google]? Do they get better tablet experiences, and do you get—

Oh, that’s interesting.

—an entry point into mobile?

Yeah, no. I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s that complex, actually. I mean, that’s a good theoretical point, but I’m not sure I’ve thought about it that way.

NP: Because I can just see... you put this one out next year, it does well.

God, I hope you’re right.

NP: And then you build a larger one, right? A slightly larger one that runs right up against the Neo.

Yeah, I don’t see that. I can see my road map. I can see it three years out, and I’m not, like, “I’ve had visions.” I can, like, physically see it, the road map. We have every iteration of these products out there. I think what you’re saying is not where I’m seeing things.

At the end of the day, Windows is doing its job well. It’s incredible, literally for anything bigger than this device. Now, anything bigger in between Neo and Duo, I think, is stuck. So when I say anything bigger, I don’t see anything smaller than 2.9 inches, and I don’t see anything bigger than this. When we picked this product, we literally looked for years at screen sizes. What’s the right thing to do?

You identify different products. It’s got to be like this: what people like. And eventually, we got to: what are people going to do, and what’s the right size, and what’s the biggest we can make it, but still make it as small as it can be? And I know that sounds like a kind of an oxymoron, but that was the push.

We found the design point of where I think the largest product can be in the mobile space. That’s what I believe. And so I say that where I could be wrong, but I also say that I look at my road map, and we’re not looking at anything bigger than this. I never share my road map.

NP: We keep trying, yeah.

We’ve tried... and your reporting, spying, whatever it is, identifies some shit sometimes. And it just drives me nuts. I was really frustrated with the leak two days ago. You guys have no idea.

NP: Tell me more.

That leak came through, and I was like, “What happened? What happened?” Basically, the Laptop leak, the Surface Pro leak, Surface Pro X leak. Those three products leaked. I was proud of the team. I was proud of the way everyone handled that. I’m proud of the way we reacted.

NP: You said onstage, “I’ve seen all the leaks, too, but I got one more moment.”

You know, I was talking to Yusuf [Mehdi], basically our CMO of Surface, and he was like, “Don’t do it. Don’t do it.” I was... okay. But we had a good time thinking about that.

NP: What’s the thing you want people to focus on in this year? Because there are going to be competitors coming out. You’re going to hit the second generation of some of your competitors when you come out. How do you want people to think about this device for the next year?

I really want people to think about the holiday lineup as the Surface PCs that we just shipped. We’re pretty proud of those, and we want people to buy them. That’s true.

Then Duo. I think, like anything, look at the product that you think is most interesting to you and where you think you can be more creative. That’s where I would push. I think this product is going to be there next year. If you’re not in a hurry, hang out and see what happens and what’s happening. It’s going to be all right. Take photos or do whatever it is you do on your phone today for a little bit longer, and then we’ll see if we can convince you that you can be more creative on this product.

NP: This is great, in the context of the last round of phone reviews where everyone was like, maybe keep your phone for 20 years. It’s good enough, right?

It’s funny, I haven’t read phone reviews. I don’t really look at other phones. I know that I take photos with my phone, like I take a lot of pictures. But I want to extend that. I told a story today. It was a real story, where you know how many times I start mail on my phone? And I move to my Surface.

Like simple mails or short mails or I’ve got to get a note out, sure, I use my phone as much as anybody. But when it gets to something I’ve got to be thinking through and editing and so forth, I think the world’s maybe ready, especially in this era of mobile creativity. So many people creating on the fly. It’s pretty inspiring.

Watching my kids blows my mind. But even them, they have to move to their Surface. And I just think, “Why don’t we get to that next spot?” I think this product does that.

NP: I’m very interested to see a form factor changes come because I think everything changes in that moment.

Yeah. I think we’ve been waiting for it. I think we’ve been waiting for it a little bit. And I think we’ve been saying for a long time, when the form factor is ready to change, we’ll be there. I think this is the time.

NP: Panos, thank you so much for joining us.

It was fun. It’s always a good time.