PhaedrusSCV Profile Joined August 2011 United States 5 Posts #1 SC2 has amazing graphics, and I was excited for it to come out. Over time, however, it hasn't lived up to my hopes. Its dwindling popularity seems to suggest I am not the only one who is a little disappointed. Why?



Anyone have thoughts on why this is the case? Here are a few of mine, but looking for other input!



Over Engineering

Excessive addition, nerfing and buffing of units to try to engineer epic games is what killed SC2. Rather than letting players come up with creative strategies, Blizzard seems to have tried to prescribe strategies each time they add or change units. In other words, trying to make SC2 perfect made it substandard. Leaving Broodwar messy in many ways allowed players to apply their own problem solving skills to it.



Broodwar

Some compositions have extremely hard counters, other compositions have NO hard counters, game somewhat broken and imbalanced, but players solve that through innovation (e.g. Zerg cannot win head on fights at all and must rely on tactics, an innovation resulting from players working through the dynamics of the game).



Fast expanding was an option, one that took guts, was risky, but offered upside. It could be countered in many scenarios, and you could just lose. Or you could try to expand and reap huge economic rewards later on, but the game would be far from decided.



Starcraft 2: Blizzard trying to engineer "epic, macro games". Considers vulnerability to rushes a flaw, and gives units anti-rush measures (e.g. Mothership Core). Considers differences between races a flaw, and makes all races comparable (e.g. Queens to cancel out the larva dynamic for Zerg, gives Zerg cheap armored units for head-on fighting (roach), gives Zerg siege units (swarm hosts), gives Terran armored cheap units (Marauders), etc. Blizzard also decides that rushing is not only a flaw, but should be prevented entirely and considered "cheese" all in efforts to make longer professional games. Ups starting worker count to 12.



If they keep on this route in SC2: all games will start out with both players having 4 bases, all their tech and maxed out armies so we can enjoy the so-called "good, macro games", cutting out all that supposed "cheese" that came in the form of rushing, strategy, risk taking, etc.



SC2: expanding is a necessity and comes with no risk as Blizzard has carefully prescribed how to easily stop any rushes. Therefore, in SC2, rushing is referred to as "cheese", and frowned upon.



SC1: raw, less engineered, more organic. Strategies flow from players.



SC2: engineered. Strategies flow from excessive and common "nerfing/patching" of units, as well as addition of new units. Blizzard trying to engineer the most spectator-friendly scenarios rather than letting the game evolve organically.



Anyone else have similar or opposing ideas? Curious if others have thought about this any...



XERX Profile Joined April 2017 85 Posts #2 The competitive game didn't destroy it the reason why it flopped was the arcade system wasn't implemented until forever.



The main bulk of people want to play to have fun playing the fun as fuck custom games in SC2.

HaN- Profile Blog Joined June 2009 France 1822 Posts #3



According to HuK, Calendar

Kanil Profile Joined April 2010 United States 1707 Posts #4 I agree with XERX. I stopped playing because of Battle.net "2.0", I stopped watching because I stopped playing, and I stopped caring because I neither played nor watched.



Suffice to say, I'm quite relieved they aren't screwing with Battle.net too much with Remastered. I used to have an Oz icon over here ---->

MKStyles Profile Joined April 2017 94 Posts #5 All the free units/Energy is one reason this game is so bad and the lack of good balancing , in BW u can have large maps and its still kinda balanced...in sc2 ur hoping too get small maps that and that u dont get Zerg on large maps.



The other reason is the lack of combat, in scbw u have several fights all over the place and in sc2 u have kinda 1 large fight with 2 hotkeys armee´s and thats all, boring too watch.

FvRGg Profile Joined June 2016 68 Posts #6 oh my god... i just realised that literally nobody has ever discussed why, you might be onto something!

superjoppe Profile Joined December 2004 Sweden 3601 Posts #7 SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.

For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order.

InfCereal Profile Joined December 2011 Canada 1556 Posts #8 On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:

SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.

For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order.



Ironically, A-moving in the current meta is a very, very, very bad idea, at least for zerg.



ZvP is Hydra bane vs immo/archon/storm, and since storm 2 shots hydras, and 1(?) shots banes, a-moving will lose your 120 supply of army in roughly half a second. The ZvP meta actually revolves around getting +2 melee and using it to 1 shot probes with bane drops in order to force the toss to attack into you rather than vice versa.



ZvT engagements are move wave based. Since widow mines can kill your entire army at once, engagements from zerg are usually small packs of ling bane, where the banes are used to either kill the burrowed mines with splash, set off the mines, or at the very least push the bio back so your mutas can pick off a mine or two. After ~140 supply, it's more runby based because it's very hard to set off said mines after there's enough bio so you start avoiding the army, pulling it apart with runbys in different positions, and muta flybys.



ZvZ's just shit though.



Not to say everything else is wrong with sc2. I hate the game 99% of the time, but it definitely has nothing to do with a-moving anymore. The longer lotv has been out, the further from a-moving we've gone Ironically, A-moving in the current meta is a very, very, very bad idea, at least for zerg.ZvP is Hydra bane vs immo/archon/storm, and since storm 2 shots hydras, and 1(?) shots banes, a-moving will lose your 120 supply of army in roughly half a second. The ZvP meta actually revolves around getting +2 melee and using it to 1 shot probes with bane drops in order to force the toss to attack into you rather than vice versa.ZvT engagements are move wave based. Since widow mines can kill your entire army at once, engagements from zerg are usually small packs of ling bane, where the banes are used to either kill the burrowed mines with splash, set off the mines, or at the very least push the bio back so your mutas can pick off a mine or two. After ~140 supply, it's more runby based because it's very hard to set off said mines after there's enough bio so you start avoiding the army, pulling it apart with runbys in different positions, and muta flybys.ZvZ's just shit though.Not to say everything else is wrong with sc2. I hate the game 99% of the time, but it definitely has nothing to do with a-moving anymore. The longer lotv has been out, the further from a-moving we've gone Cereal :: AllThingsZerg.com :: SC2Overwatch.com

JWD[9] Profile Blog Joined November 2015 364 Posts Last Edited: 2017-07-26 10:54:26 #9 For me, Sc2 is a game with too many checkmates. Cheese might not be strong, but for example, the game on promixa station in the recent HSC between Zest and Byun, 7 minute buildup, ends in less than 2 seconds because Zest had 1 forcefield to few.

I just won a ZvT, where the Terran was going for a mech push, and I knew, if I just lose my third and natural, as long as he does not scout the mutas before they hit his base, the game is over. There was no real interaction.



In BW, most of the time, even if a Reaver shot gets really lucky, you get behind, in Sc2, you are just dead.



I had a 16 minute back and forth ZvZ end with 3 fungals (less than 10 seconds), granted, I took a long break and now I will be more wary about that possibility, but still, to learn sc2 means to just die a million stupid deaths. The 3month break I was on last, I took after a speck of dust made my mouse spaz for a friction of a second, costing me the game. In BW, that puts me 5% behind my opponent, in Sc2 it is just game.



edit: it is just so unforgiving. I loved to watch Soulkey vs Life, because you could see how similiar Sc2 is to a fighting game, where you basically have to have frame perfect input. That still is an advantage in BW, but other skills matter too.

MKStyles Profile Joined April 2017 94 Posts #10 Well in SCBW ASL League u can play BO1 and so often wins the guy with the better mechanics and the favourite in the game.



Do that in SC2 and we will see 1 base cheese all along.

RowdierBob Profile Blog Joined May 2003 Australia 12122 Posts #11 For me SC2 dumbed down too many of the mechanics that made BW enjoyable for me. "Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H

Drake Profile Joined October 2010 Germany 6134 Posts #12 well first of all sc2 still has a healthy playerbase, its just that its 7 years old ... games doesnt hold up that long anymore in modern times.



for me it died with LOTV i really loved WOL and i still enjoyed HOTS but the changes to LOTV made game no fun for me anymore,



i think the reason is the community and blizzard listening to them, blizzard need to understand that "the mass" is a horde of idiots who want idiot things and when they get it they stop playing cause its boring ... the mass never know whats good for them and should be totaly ingored



but blizzard listened and with lesser minerals per base and higher starting probes and all that stuff they nerfed the "rushes" but what they rly did was nerfing diversity ... its now basicly ONE build to play ONE style the macro lame mass expand style ...

i dont like the style and looking at the playerbase alot people dont like it!



but the "mass" wanted it ... and now the mass stopped playing becaue they got bored without all the rushes and shannanigans they formerly flamed so much about but still played Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005

Drake Profile Joined October 2010 Germany 6134 Posts #13 On July 26 2017 20:12 MKStyles wrote:

Well in SCBW ASL League u can play BO1 and so often wins the guy with the better mechanics and the favourite in the game.



Do that in SC2 and we will see 1 base cheese all along.



i would disagree and say that in sc1 u had way more cheeses then in sc2, especially in lotv ... its basicly macro until 1 fight and end game ...

teh rushed made u defend for so many possibilities and no one does that anymore

in sc1 people doesnt do it that often ebcause people DO build to prefent all that becuase its all figured out i would disagree and say that in sc1 u had way more cheeses then in sc2, especially in lotv ... its basicly macro until 1 fight and end game ...teh rushed made u defend for so many possibilities and no one does that anymorein sc1 people doesnt do it that often ebcause people DO build to prefent all that becuase its all figured out Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005

Nebuchad Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Switzerland 10160 Posts #14 It's dying because of you. "It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."

Ryzel Profile Joined December 2012 United States 353 Posts Last Edited: 2017-07-26 11:26:50 #15 On July 26 2017 17:24 XERX wrote:

The competitive game didn't destroy it the reason why it flopped was the arcade system wasn't implemented until forever.



The main bulk of people want to play to have fun playing the fun as fuck custom games in SC2.



This, this, and this. It's a misconception that the bulk of people ladder, from Brood War to WC3 it was all about the custom games and SC2 was no exception. It seemed that there were ​so many games within games, I mean a WC3 custom map ended up getting bigger than WC3 ever did. SC2 was poised to be even better with it's great editor and map marketplace, but the UI was so horrible you couldn't even look up games by list so no one even saw anything. So no one cared, which meant mapmakers stopped caring, which is why no one plays SC2 anymore after getting burnt out from ladder. Co-op helps, but it's basically 1 Blizzard sponsored custom map and can't keep people invested.



TLDR: The custom game UI killed SC2.

This, this, and this. It's a misconception that the bulk of people ladder, from Brood War to WC3 it was all about the custom games and SC2 was no exception. It seemed that there were ​so many games within games, I mean a WC3 custom map ended up getting bigger than WC3 ever did. SC2 was poised to be even better with it's great editor and map marketplace, but the UI was so horrible you couldn't even look up games by list so no one even saw anything. So no one cared, which meant mapmakers stopped caring, which is why no one plays SC2 anymore after getting burnt out from ladder. Co-op helps, but it's basically 1 Blizzard sponsored custom map and can't keep people invested.TLDR: The custom game UI killed SC2. Hakuna Matata B*tches

KalWarkov Profile Blog Joined December 2011 Germany 3911 Posts #16 The game itself is NOT the reason



shitty custom games / mapmaker

no casual game modes (see #1, blizzard couldve implemented some themselves though)

blizzard caring too late about community

blizzard not realizing what opportunity esports is

Ladder design causing major anxiety issues for many ppl

MLG fucking up several times

Egoistic organizations wanting short term profit, dying off eventually

Young Generation mostly wanting easy games with fast results [casual games going esports for masses]





Also, ppl have to realize sc2 was basically how twitch and the new esports era began. SC2 paved the way to what we have now with modern esports, and it is still a top 10 title (so "wrecked" isn't really fitting). SC2 made many mistakes that other titles could look at and not do them again.

DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM WoL/HotS/LotV | Dota2 - Offlane/5: peak 5.8k solo | Wc3 - Undead: 2007/2008/2016/2017/2018 ~rank 100 W3A/Bnet, ~60% winrate | Diablo 2 / Grim Dawn / PoE nerd - Melee Classes | Leffen/Ice, MCarlsen, BVB <3 | Agnostic***

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13355 Posts #17 On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:

SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.

For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order.

Reading something like this is always funny.

It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". Reading something like this is always funny.It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". INnoVation

niteReloaded Profile Blog Joined February 2007 Croatia 5228 Posts #18 limited people like dustin browder and david kim leading the balancing.



Making a good RTS is not math. It needs to be a little wild, but blizzard had too much of a burden from BW, and they didn't really know how to make a great sequel, so they settled for mimicking BW and making the game not terribly imbalanced.



There's no true inspiration in SC2. Races have lost their distinctiveness, they seem very similar now , just with different 'faces'.



Like someone said, BW is organic, SC2 was synthesized in a lab, by a not-too-inspired scientist.

nukkuj Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Finland 402 Posts Last Edited: 2017-07-26 12:00:40 #19 Infestor bloodlord in WoL

Swarm hosts during HoTs

Adepts in beginning of LotV

Lack of fun maps to play with your friends after 1v1 trihard grinds. Maps maybe existed but it was extremely difficult to find anything worthwhile in arcade side.



list is biased and TL;DR version.



I had my share of joy and frustration from SC2 during its time and I don't regret putting tons of hours in. Like with many previous games I've played, the game ran its course and it was time to move on for me.

vaL4r Profile Joined May 2010 Germany 240 Posts #20



"Part of why I think SC2 died out is because people don't, in general, find it fun to grind relatively hard 1v1 games for hours every night. In contrast, even the most difficult MOBA is still fairly fun and there's a lot of variety to be found in changing up the variable of your team-mates.



I also do think that very hard games don't really have a place in modern esports. That has overwhelmingly been the trend over the history of esports and shows no signs of halting. Those who bill SC2, Dota2 or CS:GO as really hard games are fooling themselves or simply don't know enough about the games of the past.



Esports is like if Chess had been a breakout sport and then someone had cynically figured out that if you make it less difficult and turn it into checkers then more people will be interested in playing and watching. Then someone brought out Monopoly and beat out both and cornered the market."



source:



I tend to agree. Thorin had this to say:"Part of why I think SC2 died out is because people don't, in general, find it fun to grind relatively hard 1v1 games for hours every night. In contrast, even the most difficult MOBA is still fairly fun and there's a lot of variety to be found in changing up the variable of your team-mates.I also do think that very hard games don't really have a place in modern esports. That has overwhelmingly been the trend over the history of esports and shows no signs of halting. Those who bill SC2, Dota2 or CS:GO as really hard games are fooling themselves or simply don't know enough about the games of the past.source: https://www.reddit.com/r/thooorin/comments/5oj223/i_am_thorin_ama/dcktiwc/ I tend to agree. You need to play starcraft with a light heart. If you play with a heavy heart, you can't win. -NaDa

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