dantex Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Germany 23 Posts #1 Hello Reader!



A few sentences about me and to explain what this text is based upon. I am high platin Protoss player on EU and I have a very good winrate vs Zerg (70%+). This whole text is based upon my xperience on ladder and one might have made other experience or interprete his experience differently than I do. Many sentences you will read, will sound like given facts. They are not. They are my point of view and my opinion. You might put a "I think.." or "In my opinion on this is..." in front of all the paragraphes, but was too lazy to do so

Has been a while since I wrote such a long text in English, so my "school english" is a bit rusty. Please be gentle in that regard. Thanks!



The following text will be about my point of view on the PvZ metagames these days and how much it is affected by the growing numbers of Zergplayers going for early Mutas and the way that Protoss players react to this shift. I'll try to be not whining too much and considering the point of view of Zerg players.



So, let's get started..



Looks like you do not have a big problem with PvZ, so what is the issue?



My gameplan in PvZ is always to go for a fast expand (FFE oder 1Gate exe) and overall try to go for >20min makro game. But i hardly get play 20min+ games, because of Mutas. Roughly 4 out 5 Zergs I play on ladder go for 2 base Mutas, defending with Roaches and Spines. Once Mutas are out they start to harrass the shit out of me, take bases and i am struggeling to get my 3rd up. Trying to go for a big makro game with constant Muta harrass is no fun for me. That's a big problem for me, because I play to have fun and not only to win. Yes, winning is fun, but to me, a quick 4gate win is not as fun as losing a 30min game full of fights, good makro, fine micro etc pp.



So what I start, is to (ofc^^) scout constantly with Observers and Hallucinations. As soon as I see a spire building, I prepare a 2 base timing push with a Stalker heavy gatewayarmy, some Immortals, Blink and +2 attack. This timing and army composition destroys "the pre-Muta Zerg army" consisting of Roaches and Spines out of 3base.

And this is roughly how 80% of my PvZ go and I just go ahead and call it my PvZ metagame these days. So again, despite winning most PvZs, it is no big fun for me, because it is boring. No big variations on my game, no big variations on the Zerg's game. The same all over again.



Trying to break out of this pattern, establishing a 3rd base and going for my beloved makrogame is hard to me.

My problem is to 1) defend Mutas, 2) expand and 3) keep up in army and tech.

I have read many times how a Toss should be defending against Mutas, so expanding and teching/establishing an army is doable.



Here are to common responds on how to deal with that:



Just spam cannons:

To cope with the feared Muta flock, with cannons, is expensive. I'd say roughly 4-5 cannons per attackable mineral line (mostly your main and 3rd) is good for the 8-10 Mutas coming with the first wave. This is a shitload of money. This could be another base or 4-5 gates, which provides more eco or army. So, before I can even try to expand, I need to invest a ton into cannons and suddenly the expo comes later and costs ~1000 mins. This simply sucks and cuts deep into my makro.



Rofl, try storms, noob:

Storm tech in itself, plus getting the templar early enough, so you have two or more storms per mineral line, is very gas intensive. Getting this on 2 base / 4 gas is doable, but hard and you need to cut a lot of corners. Getting your tech and army going, while going for storms for defense only, is very hard to impossible.

Another problem is that storm does not provide "guaranteed damage". Storming a Muta flock when they fly in needs fast fingers and good map awareness. Achieving this should be a goal for every player out there, but players in the lower leauges are still on their way to learn multitasking and get solid 80+ APM. Dodging storms with the Muta flock is not that hard and even if a storm hits, you do not kill off (a lot of) Mutas, so they still have a lot of DPS for killing your out-of-energy templar plus a load of probes. Having some (blink) stalkers around is not that great of a help, because their DPS is simply not high enough.



Try Archons, they have splash and extra damage against bio units:

Archons are not as expensive as templar with storms are, but still expensive. So i have the same problems as if I am going for storms regarding my rest of the army and/or tech. They are slow, fat, not very mobile, have a small range and can be magic boxed. To me, all this makes them not optimal for defending Mutas.



Haven't you heard? MC says "Penix imba"!

So, going for a fast expand, 1gate, stargate etc might be good, if you anticipate the Mutas from start off. But you need to make a lot of them, I'd say 6-9, to cope with a growing Muta flock. Plus, you need to start building them from the beginning on. A stargate, or even two, as a response to seeing a spire or the Muta flock itself does not work very well. If you go stargate from the start off, you need to do damage with the Phoenix, or they are simply a waste of money going into the midgame. Losing Phoenix while doing damage with them is cruicial, because you don't want to build Phoenix all game long. Zergs nowadays have figuered out how to deal with Phoenix or Void Rays. Cheap Spores, usefull Queens or Corrupters, which are on the same tech tree as Mutas, counter your Phoenix play or make it, at least, cost inefficient to use.

So again, I look at it and it leaves me with a kinda of "meeh-feeling".



Blink Stalkers, my dear friend, are supposed to scare off Mutas

Well, I have to admit, that early blink is, to me, the best way to counter the Muta flock. Let me say, that an early Council is nice to have. You can get your +2 and later +3 attack, transitions into HTs, DTs harrass and Archon/Speedlots easily. But I do have some problems with the "Solution: the Blink Stalker": You have to keep a good number of Stalkers at each of your (attackable) mineral line, which makes your "main force" weaker. Thus keeping you in your base, preapring to defend and not be active on the map, to put up preassure on the Zerg, so he can't drone up to 75 Drones, expand everywhere and get the eco to build the dreadful Broodlord army... or simply get whatever the hell he wants.

Furthermore there comes a point, where the Zerg has a cruicial mass of Mutas and he can fight a bunch of Blink Stalkers straight up. Seeing your Stalkers die to Mutas is not a good feeling...

Think of Tal Darim Altar. A bunch of Stalker at your main mineral line, a bunch at your 3rd and your main army at the ramp at the natural. The Muta flock can easily bounce between main and 3rd. It seems pretty impossible to defend at all three places at once, while the Zerg can keep his Muta flock growing and expanding all over the map. The Zerg keeps on rising, the Protoss starts to fall and crumble with every minute. I have vetoed TDA, because of that (and because of the "4gate situation" on this map ).



As Blizzard said themselves, Protoss lacks anti air splash damage. Replacing the Carrier by the Tempest seems not to be the right idea to me, because how am i supposed to have 2-3 Tempest at 10min mark, when they are carrier'esce regarding the techtree and cost !? Well, that's another topic, but I wanted to state, that even Blizzard realisied, that there is a lack of anti air splash / anti Muta unit in the Toss arsenal, so there might be some truth to that

The recall ability of the nexus, which is supposed to come with HotS might help, but I do not think, that the feature will be put in the game, as it is currently, because it should be too strong. But I am not Nostradamus and cannot forsee the future. In addition to that, I think a solution to mass Muta play should come soon, not in far future, when HotS will be released. God knows, when it is finished and hits the stores.



Terrans can cope with Mutas, so why should Protoss not be able to do so!?



Another point, I read a lot, was "Terrans learnd to deal with Mutas, so Toss stop whining, start learning!"



Terrans have Marines. Marines cost no gas and are cheap on minerals too. Marines have a great DPS, stim is awesome and Terrans can produce a ton of those. Marines (with upgrades) hard counter Mutas.



Another aspect is the following: The Zerg opponent attacks and makros well behind the attack to keep units coming to reinforce the attacking army. If the Toss attacks he is supposed to have a warp in pylon / prism to warp in units right at the front line. Terrans are supposed to gather reinforcements at their base and then send in waves of units to the front line. So, if the Zerg counter attacks with Mutas, Terrans should have a good amount of units to defend at their base, the Protoss usually won't. Yep, Protoss can warp in units at the back of their base and try to defend, but every Protoss knows the feeling, when he just warped in more stuff at the front to hammer down the wall of Spines and the never ending flow of Roaches and then waits for the gatecool down while his probes get slaughterd. In addition to that, the only unit which will help immediately, are Stalkers. Templar don't have enough energy to hit storms right after the warp in, morphing archons take too much time and leaves the unit vulnerable to just get sniped. And Stalkers are damn expensive, if you want to have enough of them to scare the Mutas away.



If i look at the TvZ metagame, there are 3 ways to go: MMM, Marine/Tank and Mech. Two of those styles have easy excess to Thors. Hard to kill, good anti air splash damage and a long range. So, the perfect counter to Mutas. A Thor per mineral line plus 2-3 Turrets and your pretty safe or you can buy enough time to get some Marines or more Thors to scare the Mutas away or even kill a good amount. To my mind, one cannot compare an Archon to a Thor regarding the anti Muta aspect.



Terrans can build their expands safely in their base and simply fly it over at the point you don't have to be too afraid of Mutas. Protoss cannot do that.



So, my conclusion is, that Terrans have more tools and possibilities to deal with Mutas and safely expand than Protoss.

Please note, that I am not a Terran player and all these points are based upon observing pro play. Dear Terrans, feel free to correct me on this!



Trying to combine the "learn how to defend" and the "this is your Protoss arsenal to cope with Mutas", I came up with this:

Early Council for Blink, Stalker at your main, a bunch of cannons at the third before you get the Nexus down. Transition into Archons and Storm for your splash damage, 3+ attack upgrade, mix in some Immortals and a ton of gateways. Pressure from 3base, try to force the Zerg to engage with his Mutas in a straight up and cost inefficient way. In addition, keeping a good sight on the map to spot the Muta flock and seeing when the Zerg techswitches. Warp prism and Zealot/DT harrass can be very useful.

This kinda works for me, but it is pretty hard. Much harder than trying to kill the Zerg with a 2base timing before Mutas hit.

So, my "Anti Muta, yet makro"-style is kinda okay, at least for me, but it still feels like I, as a Protoss, have to play much better than the Zerg. Yes, my dear Zergplayer, you may get upset upon this statement and, again, feel free to correct me and fill in my lacks of knowledge by telling me the problems of going (and having established a good amount of) Mutas. I am really curious about the troubles you have with Protoss, once you have your desired number of Mutas. This might reduce the lack of understanding each other and frustrating about the other race.



So, I have written quite a wall of text here. Time to sum up!



* dealing with Mutas is hard as Protoss, but not impossible. But it cuts hard into your flow of a fine makro game

* Mutas force, at least me, to go for 2base timing pushes to kill the Zerg before Mutas hit, which is kinda boring, monoton and might frustrate the Zerg player, too.

* Terrans have mroe tools to deal with Mutas, while going for a nice and fun makro game



To me, Mutas affect the PvZ metagame a lot and it is not going into a good way. A lot of PvZs I play, or see on streams, are going into two ways: Protoss trying to kill the Zerg before the Mutas kick in or Protoss struggeling hard once the Muta flock is there and keeps growing to a critical mass. Both ways are not too fun to play or watch. PvT and ZvT are looking much better in this regards.

Yep, there are players, like Grubby, who try to break out of this "I see Mutas, tilt, QQ" patterns, but I am not a micro-multitasking monster like him and I assume most of us are not. My feeling is, that a Protossplayer has to play much better than a Zerg, who goes for Mutas. This might not be right and I could get a ton of flames from Zergplayers for that statement, but this is, as I said in the beginning, only based upon my experience and observation, while not having played Zerg on a level above high silver / low gold. This is not meant to be an insult to Zergplayers or their skills. I am open minded and curious to hear the Zerg's point of view!



Actually I do not think that this only an issue to Protossplayers. I get a lot of hate, flame and BM after I defeat a Zerg with my 2base timing push, which is triggerd by seeing a spire. And, what can I say? I totally feel for the Zergplayers and can understand them, if they tell my, that many of their ZvPs end with such a 2base timing push, which is, obvisouly, frustrating.





So, you are saying we Zerg players should not go Muta in our ZvP? Stop being a dick!



I will try to get in the head of a Zerg player. First of all, I have played a few games as Zerg, smurfing around in lower leauges. Damn! Zerg is hard. Especially the makro (larva injects, etc..). But i have messed around with Mutas in ZvP and I can understand why you love to go Spire. To me, Mutas gave me great possibilites to gain mapcontrol, harrass and dictate the speed and the direction in which the game develops. A great feeling, which I miss, when I play Protoss. And, once you have established a nice Muta flock, it is pretty hard to lose, when you have figuerd out, how many Spines and Roaches you need to defend the Toss push.

But I hope that Zerg players start to understand the Protoss side of this. Everything a Zergplayer earns by going Muta, is taken away from the Protossplayer. This is frustrating and takes away the fun of playing PvZ, creating even more ladder anxiety. So the natural development of Protoss' mindset is "what do I have to do, to not struggle with Mutas?". The way to answer this 1) "cope with the Muta harrass" or 2) "don't let the Zerg get Mutas". As 1) not being easy, not being fun, 2) is the way to go. What is the easiest way to achieve this? Killing him, when his army is weak, because he saves money to get his Muta flock going.

As me, not being a Zergplayer, I don't know how often your ZvPs end with such a 2base push, which kills you. I am only assuming by talking to my opponents and friends, who play Zerg, that this happens quite often and it is extremly frustrating.

So, do I want Zergs to stop playing Muta? Of course not, why should they? It is fun and pretty mighty, making it even more fun. But please try to understand, that this style of play anticaptes the Protoss to kill you within 10-12 minutes. This is the easy and thus the most common way.



To me, this "Muta metagame problem" feels a lot like the "Broodlord / Infestor metagmae problem", if I might call it that way. Facing a Broodlord army with Infestors and Spines beneath it, gives the Protoss a feeling of helplessness. It forces you down the same road as the Muta flock. Kill him before he gets there or cope with it. As the Archon toilett being the only viable solution to cope with it, it is easier to try to kill the Zerg before he has this scary army. The problem, compared to Broodlord/Infestor is, that Mutas hit a lot earlier than Broodlord/Infestor, so the Protoss does not have a lot of time to throw rocks in the Zerg's way of teching towards Spire. Thus making the games shorter and even less of a good makro game.

I can only imagine and assume that the Zergplayers out there have a kind of simliar feeling about the "unbeatable a-move Protoss Deathball", making the gameplan's goal to kill the Protoss before he has his 200/200 army.



You have now been crying about Mutas a lot, what is your solution?



Well, i do not have one single thing, which should be fixed by Blizzard and everything is fine. I do not think, that Mutas should be nerved, because they look pretty balanced in the other match ups. The other approach would be to buff Protoss in some way, so they can have a tool, like the Thor or Infestor, to cope with the feared Muta flock. I would love to see, if some kind of splash damage upgrade for the Phoenix can solve this dilemma, because buffing other Protoss units would effect the other match ups to much (, speaking of cheaper cannons, longer Archon range, etc..).



So, what I tried with this essay'esce kind of text is to sum up the effect of Mutas in the PvZ metagame and the consequences for the evolution of it. All, as I said in the beginning, based upon my own ladder experience and observation and interpretation of recent games in the "pro scene".



I would love to hear the opinion of others with a different point of view. Does it differ from server to server or from lower to higher leauges? What would be your solution? Is a new solution actually needed? Is the solution already in the game and I (and obviously others) have simply not discoverd it?



Thank you for reading and working thruogh this long text. I would love to develop a dialouge between open minded Zerg and Protoss players on this issue. Good critisim is welcomed, one line flames à la "your race is so ezpz, try playing my race, its überhard to learn and play"are not wanted



ps.: after reading through the whole text again, I have to say that i whined more than I intended to.But I think it is not too much and I avoided the "IMBA!! IMBA!!" screams

Also, I tend to dive into to much detail at one point, trying to make my point extra clear, but touching other topics not deeply enough. I hope, all over, the gist of my thoughts became clear and I think I didn't just make "one of those Toss whining 'bout Muta" Threads.



A few sentences about me and to explain what this text is based upon. I am high platin Protoss player on EU and I have a very good winrate vs Zerg (70%+). This whole text is based uponxperience on ladder and one might have made other experience or interprete his experience differently than I do. Many sentences you will read, will sound like given facts. They are not. They are my point of view and my opinion. You might put a "I think.." or "In my opinion on this is..." in front of all the paragraphes, but was too lazy to do soHas been a while since I wrote such a long text in English, so my "school english" is a bit rusty. Please be gentle in that regard. Thanks!The following text will be about my point of view on the PvZ metagames these days and how much it is affected by the growing numbers of Zergplayers going for early Mutas and the way that Protoss players react to this shift. I'll try to be not whining too much and considering the point of view of Zerg players.So, let's get started..My gameplan in PvZ is always to go for a fast expand (FFE oder 1Gate exe) and overall try to go for >20min makro game. But i hardly get play 20min+ games, because of Mutas. Roughly 4 out 5 Zergs I play on ladder go for 2 base Mutas, defending with Roaches and Spines. Once Mutas are out they start to harrass the shit out of me, take bases and i am struggeling to get my 3rd up. Trying to go for a big makro game with constant Muta harrass is no fun for me. That's a big problem for me, because I play to have fun and not only to win. Yes, winning is fun, but to me, a quick 4gate win is not as fun as losing a 30min game full of fights, good makro, fine micro etc pp.So what I start, is to (ofc^^) scout constantly with Observers and Hallucinations. As soon as I see a spire building, I prepare a 2 base timing push with a Stalker heavy gatewayarmy, some Immortals, Blink and +2 attack. This timing and army composition destroys "the pre-Muta Zerg army" consisting of Roaches and Spines out of 3base.And this is roughly how 80% of my PvZ go and I just go ahead and call it my PvZ metagame these days. So again, despite winning most PvZs, it is no big fun for me, because it is boring. No big variations on my game, no big variations on the Zerg's game. The same all over again.Trying to break out of this pattern, establishing a 3rd base and going for my beloved makrogame is hard to me.My problem is to 1) defend Mutas, 2) expand and 3) keep up in army and tech.I have read many times how a Toss should be defending against Mutas, so expanding and teching/establishing an army is doable.Here are to common responds on how to deal with that:To cope with the feared Muta flock, with cannons, is expensive. I'd say roughly 4-5 cannons per attackable mineral line (mostly your main and 3rd) is good for the 8-10 Mutas coming with the first wave. This is a shitload of money. This could be another base or 4-5 gates, which provides more eco or army. So, before I can even try to expand, I need to invest a ton into cannons and suddenly the expo comes later and costs ~1000 mins. This simply sucks and cuts deep into my makro.Storm tech in itself, plus getting the templar early enough, so you have two or more storms per mineral line, is very gas intensive. Getting this on 2 base / 4 gas is doable, but hard and you need to cut a lot of corners. Getting your tech and army going, while going for storms for defense only, is very hard to impossible.Another problem is that storm does not provide "guaranteed damage". Storming a Muta flock when they fly in needs fast fingers and good map awareness. Achieving this should be a goal for every player out there, but players in the lower leauges are still on their way to learn multitasking and get solid 80+ APM. Dodging storms with the Muta flock is not that hard and even if a storm hits, you do not kill off (a lot of) Mutas, so they still have a lot of DPS for killing your out-of-energy templar plus a load of probes. Having some (blink) stalkers around is not that great of a help, because their DPS is simply not high enough.Archons are not as expensive as templar with storms are, but still expensive. So i have the same problems as if I am going for storms regarding my rest of the army and/or tech. They are slow, fat, not very mobile, have a small range and can be magic boxed. To me, all this makes them not optimal for defending Mutas.So, going for a fast expand, 1gate, stargate etc might be good, if you anticipate the Mutas from start off. But you need to make a lot of them, I'd say 6-9, to cope with a growing Muta flock. Plus, you need to start building them from the beginning on. A stargate, or even two, as a response to seeing a spire or the Muta flock itself does not work very well. If you go stargate from the start off, you need to do damage with the Phoenix, or they are simply a waste of money going into the midgame. Losing Phoenix while doing damage with them is cruicial, because you don't want to build Phoenix all game long. Zergs nowadays have figuered out how to deal with Phoenix or Void Rays. Cheap Spores, usefull Queens or Corrupters, which are on the same tech tree as Mutas, counter your Phoenix play or make it, at least, cost inefficient to use.So again, I look at it and it leaves me with a kinda of "meeh-feeling".Well, I have to admit, that early blink is, to me, the best way to counter the Muta flock. Let me say, that an early Council is nice to have. You can get your +2 and later +3 attack, transitions into HTs, DTs harrass and Archon/Speedlots easily. But I do have some problems with the: You have to keep a good number of Stalkers at each of your (attackable) mineral line, which makes your "main force" weaker. Thus keeping you in your base, preapring to defend and not be active on the map, to put up preassure on the Zerg, so he can't drone up to 75 Drones, expand everywhere and get the eco to build the dreadful Broodlord army... or simply get whatever the hell he wants.Furthermore there comes a point, where the Zerg has a cruicial mass of Mutas and he can fight a bunch of Blink Stalkers straight up. Seeing your Stalkers die to Mutas is not a good feeling...Think of Tal Darim Altar. A bunch of Stalker at your main mineral line, a bunch at your 3rd and your main army at the ramp at the natural. The Muta flock can easily bounce between main and 3rd. It seems pretty impossible to defend at all three places at once, while the Zerg can keep his Muta flock growing and expanding all over the map. The Zerg keeps on rising, the Protoss starts to fall and crumble with every minute. I have vetoed TDA, because of that (and because of the "4gate situation" on this map).As Blizzard said themselves, Protoss lacks anti air splash damage. Replacing the Carrier by the Tempest seems not to be the right idea to me, because how am i supposed to have 2-3 Tempest at 10min mark, when they are carrier'esce regarding the techtree and cost !? Well, that's another topic, but I wanted to state, that even Blizzard realisied, that there is a lack of anti air splash / anti Muta unit in the Toss arsenal, so there might be some truth to thatThe recall ability of the nexus, which is supposed to come with HotS might help, but I do not think, that the feature will be put in the game, as it is currently, because it should be too strong. But I am not Nostradamus and cannot forsee the future. In addition to that, I think a solution to mass Muta play should come soon, not in far future, when HotS will be released. God knows, when it is finished and hits the stores.Another point, I read a lot, was "Terrans learnd to deal with Mutas, so Toss stop whining, start learning!"Terrans have Marines. Marines cost no gas and are cheap on minerals too. Marines have a great DPS, stim is awesome and Terrans can produce a ton of those. Marines (with upgrades) hard counter Mutas.Another aspect is the following: The Zerg opponent attacks and makros well behind the attack to keep units coming to reinforce the attacking army. If the Toss attacks he is supposed to have a warp in pylon / prism to warp in units right at the front line. Terrans are supposed to gather reinforcements at their base and then send in waves of units to the front line. So, if the Zerg counter attacks with Mutas, Terrans should have a good amount of units to defend at their base, the Protoss usually won't. Yep, Protoss can warp in units at the back of their base and try to defend, but every Protoss knows the feeling, when he just warped in more stuff at the front to hammer down the wall of Spines and the never ending flow of Roaches and then waits for the gatecool down while his probes get slaughterd. In addition to that, the only unit which will help immediately, are Stalkers. Templar don't have enough energy to hit storms right after the warp in, morphing archons take too much time and leaves the unit vulnerable to just get sniped. And Stalkers are damn expensive, if you want to have enough of them to scare the Mutas away.If i look at the TvZ metagame, there are 3 ways to go: MMM, Marine/Tank and Mech. Two of those styles have easy excess to Thors. Hard to kill, good anti air splash damage and a long range. So, the perfect counter to Mutas. A Thor per mineral line plus 2-3 Turrets and your pretty safe or you can buy enough time to get some Marines or more Thors to scare the Mutas away or even kill a good amount. To my mind, one cannot compare an Archon to a Thor regarding the anti Muta aspect.Terrans can build their expands safely in their base and simply fly it over at the point you don't have to be too afraid of Mutas. Protoss cannot do that.So, my conclusion is, that Terrans have more tools and possibilities to deal with Mutas and safely expand than Protoss.Please note, that I am not a Terran player and all these points are based upon observing pro play. Dear Terrans, feel free to correct me on this!Trying to combine the "learn how to defend" and the "this is your Protoss arsenal to cope with Mutas", I came up with this:Early Council for Blink, Stalker at your main, a bunch of cannons at the third before you get the Nexus down. Transition into Archons and Storm for your splash damage, 3+ attack upgrade, mix in some Immortals and a ton of gateways. Pressure from 3base, try to force the Zerg to engage with his Mutas in a straight up and cost inefficient way. In addition, keeping a good sight on the map to spot the Muta flock and seeing when the Zerg techswitches. Warp prism and Zealot/DT harrass can be very useful.This kinda works for me, but it is pretty hard. Much harder than trying to kill the Zerg with a 2base timing before Mutas hit.So, my "Anti Muta, yet makro"-style is kinda okay, at least for me, but it still feels like I, as a Protoss, have to play much better than the Zerg. Yes, my dear Zergplayer, you may get upset upon this statement and, again, feel free to correct me and fill in my lacks of knowledge by telling me the problems of going (and having established a good amount of) Mutas. I am really curious about the troubles you have with Protoss, once you have your desired number of Mutas. This might reduce the lack of understanding each other and frustrating about the other race.So, I have written quite a wall of text here. Time to sum up!* dealing with Mutas is hard as Protoss, but not impossible. But it cuts hard into your flow of a fine makro game* Mutas force, at least me, to go for 2base timing pushes to kill the Zerg before Mutas hit, which is kinda boring, monoton and might frustrate the Zerg player, too.* Terrans have mroe tools to deal with Mutas, while going for a nice and fun makro gameTo me, Mutas affect the PvZ metagame a lot and it is not going into a good way. A lot of PvZs I play, or see on streams, are going into two ways: Protoss trying to kill the Zerg before the Mutas kick in or Protoss struggeling hard once the Muta flock is there and keeps growing to a critical mass. Both ways are not too fun to play or watch. PvT and ZvT are looking much better in this regards.Yep, there are players, like Grubby, who try to break out of this "I see Mutas, tilt, QQ" patterns, but I am not a micro-multitasking monster like him and I assume most of us are not. My feeling is, that a Protossplayer has to play much better than a Zerg, who goes for Mutas. This might not be right and I could get a ton of flames from Zergplayers for that statement, but this is, as I said in the beginning, only based upon my experience and observation, while not having played Zerg on a level above high silver / low gold. This is not meant to be an insult to Zergplayers or their skills. I am open minded and curious to hear the Zerg's point of view!Actually I do not think that this only an issue to Protossplayers. I get a lot of hate, flame and BM after I defeat a Zerg with my 2base timing push, which is triggerd by seeing a spire. And, what can I say? I totally feel for the Zergplayers and can understand them, if they tell my, that many of their ZvPs end with such a 2base timing push, which is, obvisouly, frustrating.I will try to get in the head of a Zerg player. First of all, I have played a few games as Zerg, smurfing around in lower leauges. Damn! Zerg is hard. Especially the makro (larva injects, etc..). But i have messed around with Mutas in ZvP and I can understand why you love to go Spire. To me, Mutas gave me great possibilites to gain mapcontrol, harrass and dictate the speed and the direction in which the game develops. A great feeling, which I miss, when I play Protoss. And, once you have established a nice Muta flock, it is pretty hard to lose, when you have figuerd out, how many Spines and Roaches you need to defend the Toss push.But I hope that Zerg players start to understand the Protoss side of this. Everything a Zergplayer earns by going Muta, is taken away from the Protossplayer. This is frustrating and takes away the fun of playing PvZ, creating even more ladder anxiety. So the natural development of Protoss' mindset is "what do I have to do, to not struggle with Mutas?". The way to answer this 1) "" or 2) "". As 1) not being easy, not being fun, 2) is the way to go. What is the easiest way to achieve this? Killing him, when his army is weak, because he saves money to get his Muta flock going.As me, not being a Zergplayer, I don't know how often your ZvPs end with such a 2base push, which kills you. I am only assuming by talking to my opponents and friends, who play Zerg, that this happens quite often and it is extremly frustrating.So, do I want Zergs to stop playing Muta? Of course not, why should they? It is fun and pretty mighty, making it even more fun. But please try to understand, that this style of play anticaptes the Protoss to kill you within 10-12 minutes. This is the easy and thus the most common way.To me, this "Muta metagame problem" feels a lot like the "Broodlord / Infestor metagmae problem", if I might call it that way. Facing a Broodlord army with Infestors and Spines beneath it, gives the Protoss a feeling of helplessness. It forces you down the same road as the Muta flock. Kill him before he gets there or cope with it. As the Archon toilett being the only viable solution to cope with it, it is easier to try to kill the Zerg before he has this scary army. The problem, compared to Broodlord/Infestor is, that Mutas hit a lot earlier than Broodlord/Infestor, so the Protoss does not have a lot of time to throw rocks in the Zerg's way of teching towards Spire. Thus making the games shorter and even less of a good makro game.I can only imagine and assume that the Zergplayers out there have a kind of simliar feeling about the "unbeatable a-move Protoss Deathball", making the gameplan's goal to kill the Protoss before he has his 200/200 army.Well, i do not have one single thing, which should be fixed by Blizzard and everything is fine. I do not think, that Mutas should be nerved, because they look pretty balanced in the other match ups. The other approach would be to buff Protoss in some way, so they can have a tool, like the Thor or Infestor, to cope with the feared Muta flock. I would love to see, if some kind of splash damage upgrade for the Phoenix can solve this dilemma, because buffing other Protoss units would effect the other match ups to much (, speaking of cheaper cannons, longer Archon range, etc..).So, what I tried with this essay'esce kind of text is to sum up the effect of Mutas in the PvZ metagame and the consequences for the evolution of it. All, as I said in the beginning, based upon my own ladder experience and observation and interpretation of recent games in the "pro scene".I would love to hear the opinion of others with a different point of view. Does it differ from server to server or from lower to higher leauges? What would be your solution? Is a new solution actually needed? Is the solution already in the game and I (and obviously others) have simply not discoverd it?Thank you for reading and working thruogh this long text. I would love to develop a dialouge between open minded Zerg and Protoss players on this issue. Good critisim is welcomed, one line flames à la "your race is so ezpz, try playing my race, its überhard to learn and play"are not wantedps.: after reading through the whole text again, I have to say that i whined more than I intended to.But I think it is not too much and I avoided the "IMBA!! IMBA!!" screamsAlso, I tend to dive into to much detail at one point, trying to make my point extra clear, but touching other topics not deeply enough. I hope, all over, the gist of my thoughts became clear and I think I didn't just make "one of those Toss whining 'bout Muta" Threads.