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Sr. MemberActivity: 280Merit: 250IIIIII====II====IIIIII Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 07:54:09 PM #8921 Quote from: finlof on January 30, 2014, 07:49:17 PM the fact they you take them as facts from Ken, and then when MrTeal (who has been around much longer and has some real street cred) posts his take on it you tell him he cant be right cause Ken said this. You are coming off like a 9 year old boy saying my dad can beat your dad up.



Ken has the facts and details at hand, he is a very experienced software engineer, (as well as a very experienced businessman) he has two life-time engineers on his team, together with their suppliers they have come up with these projections.



Mr Teal does not have all the details about this company infront of him, he has not negotiated with ACtM's suppliers or know the agreed timelines, and neither is he as knowledgeable as a combination of 3 life-time engineers. Ken has the facts and details at hand, he is a very experiencedengineer, (as well as a very experienced businessman) he has two life-time engineers on his team, together with their suppliers they have come up with these projections.Mr Teal does not have all the details about this company infront of him, he has not negotiated with ACtM's suppliers or know the agreed timelines, and neither is he as knowledgeable as a combination of 3 life-time engineers.

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LegendaryActivity: 1274Merit: 1000 Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 08:07:09 PM #8922 Quote from: kleeck on January 30, 2014, 07:20:02 PM I don't see anything in this that indicates that chips arriving in Q2 could not be mining within that same quarter, i.e. 3 months time.



This is not a pipe dream. We are not taming unicorns, here. I'm not saying that for absolute sure ActM will have a 1-2PH farm in Q2, but it is in the realm of possibility in this day and age.



The design is done. Tape-out indicates the final step of the design process, once all details have been worked out, (although certain things can come up that require re-spins). Once we have the first article we will know if any re-spins are necessary or not. Board design is done long before Q2 and might very well be done already. Pick and place is lightning fast and completely automated. Placed boards will be tested and be sent to be placed in the actual machines, which will be a second point of testing, ensuring that the boards work with the rest of the device and mining software.



This has been done so many times long before Bitcoin that it is comical how so many think of this as some unattainable or unreachable goal.

The design of the chip is done. The design of the board still seems to be underway, but it should definitely be done by the time chips roll off the line. As for the speed of the pick and place machines I'd agree, although it would probably still take a couple/few days to get all those boards through. There is still the setup for the lines though and there is kitting and other prep work to do, and even the waiting to get on a line. Any good assembly house runs at a pretty high capacity factor, and some order like this is not substantial enough that they're going to kick another client off a line in the middle of their run so that they can immediately start on yours.



It's not impossible for AMC/VMC to get working hardware into people's hands by the end of Q2. Hell, if they want to really pay they could probably even get 1PH/s online by June 30th of they get the chips April 1st if everything goes extremely well and they're willing to take some possibly expensive risks, at the cost of really raising their average unit price, and absolutely nothing goes wrong.



I would disagree that this happens so many times long before Bitcoin though. The insane standing starts we see here are due to the time sensitive nature of the Bitcoin world. If Ken were designing cable modems using a custom ASIC or something the idea of have 10,000 units in customers homes 3 months after the first sample chip rolls off the line would be crazy. The design of the chip is done. The design of the board still seems to be underway, but it should definitely be done by the time chips roll off the line. As for the speed of the pick and place machines I'd agree, although it would probably still take a couple/few days to get all those boards through. There is still the setup for the lines though and there is kitting and other prep work to do, and even the waiting to get on a line. Any good assembly house runs at a pretty high capacity factor, and some order like this is not substantial enough that they're going to kick another client off a line in the middle of their run so that they can immediately start on yours.It's not impossible for AMC/VMC to get working hardware into people's hands by the end of Q2. Hell, if they want to really pay they could probably even get 1PH/s online by June 30th of they get the chips April 1st if everything goes extremely well and they're willing to take some possibly expensive risks, at the cost of really raising their average unit price, and absolutely nothing goes wrong.I would disagree that this happens so many times long before Bitcoin though. The insane standing starts we see here are due to the time sensitive nature of the Bitcoin world. If Ken were designing cable modems using a custom ASIC or something the idea of have 10,000 units in customers homes 3 months after the first sample chip rolls off the line would be crazy.

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Hero MemberActivity: 630Merit: 500 Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 08:28:39 PM #8924 Quote from: minerpart on January 30, 2014, 07:54:09 PM Quote from: finlof on January 30, 2014, 07:49:17 PM the fact they you take them as facts from Ken, and then when MrTeal (who has been around much longer and has some real street cred) posts his take on it you tell him he cant be right cause Ken said this. You are coming off like a 9 year old boy saying my dad can beat your dad up.



Ken has the facts and details at hand, he is a very experienced software engineer, (as well as a very experienced businessman) he has two life-time engineers on his team, together with their suppliers they have come up with these projections.



Mr Teal does not have all the details about this company infront of him, he has not negotiated with ACtM's suppliers or know the agreed timelines, and neither is he as knowledgeable as a combination of 3 life-time engineers.

Ken has the facts and details at hand, he is a very experiencedengineer, (as well as a very experienced businessman) he has two life-time engineers on his team, together with their suppliers they have come up with these projections.Mr Teal does not have all the details about this company infront of him, he has not negotiated with ACtM's suppliers or know the agreed timelines, and neither is he as knowledgeable as a combination of 3 life-time engineers.

if you are going to state these as facts then I ask for you to provide proof to back up your statements of:



1. he is a very experienced software engineer

2. a very experienced businessman

3. he has two life-time engineers on his team

4. together with their suppliers they have come up with these projections



EDIT - not saying any of these arent possibly true, just want this backed up with proof. if you are going to state these as facts then I ask for you to provide proof to back up your statements of:1. he is a very experiencedengineer2. a very experienced businessman3. he has two life-time engineers on his team4. together with their suppliers they have come up with these projectionsEDIT - not saying any of these arent possibly true, just want this backed up with proof.

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LegendaryActivity: 2506Merit: 1054Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 08:56:14 PM #8928 Quote from: Minor Miner on January 30, 2014, 04:36:39 PM there is no power in the USA that is 1.7 cents. When you buy a lot of power there are capacity charges, transmission charges and energy charges (there is other bs too but this is the bulk of it). Capacity charges are based on the MOST electricity you used in the last 12-18 months (depending on your area) and it pays for the capital equipment of the power generator (hydro/nuclear have high capacity charges and low energy charges but it is a blend of all the plants that make up the power in that region), transmission is based on the utilities capital cost and is slightly lower when you take 460, energy is simply the variable cost of the electricity.

Most people are quoting the energy cost when they are throwing out these power numbers. That is like saying the cost of driving your cab is only the gas you put in.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186559.0



2 Cents but pretty near. 2 Cents but pretty near. Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.

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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 09:12:40 PM #8929 Quote from: SebastianJu on January 30, 2014, 08:56:14 PM Quote from: Minor Miner on January 30, 2014, 04:36:39 PM there is no power in the USA that is 1.7 cents. When you buy a lot of power there are capacity charges, transmission charges and energy charges (there is other bs too but this is the bulk of it). Capacity charges are based on the MOST electricity you used in the last 12-18 months (depending on your area) and it pays for the capital equipment of the power generator (hydro/nuclear have high capacity charges and low energy charges but it is a blend of all the plants that make up the power in that region), transmission is based on the utilities capital cost and is slightly lower when you take 460, energy is simply the variable cost of the electricity.

Most people are quoting the energy cost when they are throwing out these power numbers. That is like saying the cost of driving your cab is only the gas you put in.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186559.0



2 Cents but pretty near.

2 Cents but pretty near.

if you go to their pricing page, they seem to be charging $0.2669 ("CURRENT PRICING: $0.085* per BTU [British Thermal Unit] (Watts * 3.41 = BTU)).

I could be reading it wrong, here's the link:



Sure, they're including all of the services in that price, but they're charging by the watt nevertheless, meaning that if your rig eats double the electricity, it will be twice as expencive to host.

That makes the $.02 energy cost a sales gimmick - both unverifiable and irrelevant when *you're* actually paying ~$.27.



As an example, i can rent you a house and tell you that it's a great deal because my monthly costs are only $10, but then charge you $7,000 nevertheless. if you go to their pricing page, they seem to be charging $0.2669 ("CURRENT PRICING: $0.085* per BTU [British Thermal Unit] (Watts * 3.41 = BTU)).I could be reading it wrong, here's the link: http://www.loopadoop.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL2JpdGNvaW5hc2ljaG9zdGluZy5jb20vcHJpY2luZy8%3D Sure, they're including all of the services in that price, but they're charging by the watt nevertheless, meaning that if your rig eats double the electricity, it will be twice as expencive to host.That makes the $.02 energy cost a sales gimmick - both unverifiable and irrelevant when *you're* actually paying ~$.27.As an example, i can rent you a house and tell you that it's a great deal because my monthly costs are only $10, but then charge you $7,000 nevertheless.

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LegendaryActivity: 2506Merit: 1054Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 09:37:55 PM #8930 Quote from: mainline on January 30, 2014, 09:12:40 PM Quote from: SebastianJu on January 30, 2014, 08:56:14 PM Quote from: Minor Miner on January 30, 2014, 04:36:39 PM there is no power in the USA that is 1.7 cents. When you buy a lot of power there are capacity charges, transmission charges and energy charges (there is other bs too but this is the bulk of it). Capacity charges are based on the MOST electricity you used in the last 12-18 months (depending on your area) and it pays for the capital equipment of the power generator (hydro/nuclear have high capacity charges and low energy charges but it is a blend of all the plants that make up the power in that region), transmission is based on the utilities capital cost and is slightly lower when you take 460, energy is simply the variable cost of the electricity.

Most people are quoting the energy cost when they are throwing out these power numbers. That is like saying the cost of driving your cab is only the gas you put in.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186559.0



2 Cents but pretty near.

2 Cents but pretty near.

if you go to their pricing page, they seem to be charging $0.2669 ("CURRENT PRICING: $0.085* per BTU [British Thermal Unit] (Watts * 3.41 = BTU)).

I could be reading it wrong, here's the link:



Sure, they're including all of the services in that price, but they're charging by the watt nevertheless, meaning that if your rig eats double the electricity, it will be twice as expencive to host.

That makes the $.02 energy cost a sales gimmick - both unverifiable and irrelevant when *you're* actually paying ~$.27.



As an example, i can rent you a house and tell you that it's a great deal because my monthly costs are only $10, but then charge you $7,000 nevertheless.

if you go to their pricing page, they seem to be charging $0.2669 ("CURRENT PRICING: $0.085* per BTU [British Thermal Unit] (Watts * 3.41 = BTU)).I could be reading it wrong, here's the link: http://www.loopadoop.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL2JpdGNvaW5hc2ljaG9zdGluZy5jb20vcHJpY2luZy8%3D Sure, they're including all of the services in that price, but they're charging by the watt nevertheless, meaning that if your rig eats double the electricity, it will be twice as expencive to host.That makes the $.02 energy cost a sales gimmick - both unverifiable and irrelevant when *you're* actually paying ~$.27.As an example, i can rent you a house and tell you that it's a great deal because my monthly costs are only $10, but then charge you $7,000 nevertheless.

The prices you mention are from the hoster isnt it? So dalkore made it. But i believe there is a community or so with power from water plants near Denver? and thats where Dalkore is having his hosting service. As far as i understood dalkore the power costs in that area are really that low. Though i dont know for sure. Someone posted the link in one of dalkores 2 advertising threads where this community is if youre interested. The prices you mention are from the hoster isnt it? So dalkore made it. But i believe there is a community or so with power from water plants near Denver? and thats where Dalkore is having his hosting service. As far as i understood dalkore the power costs in that area are really that low. Though i dont know for sure. Someone posted the link in one of dalkores 2 advertising threads where this community is if youre interested. Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.

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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 10:06:22 PM #8932

Yeah, you could be right, and I don't know either. The closest I got to electricity price shopping was opening ConEd bills

All I'm saying is people tend to grab good looking numbers and run with them as if they were facts, while the reality could be quite different. The .02 could be available every other Wednesday when the moon is full. The hosted customers have no cause to question it or complain because they never see the bill - they are paying $0.2669 regardless.



Sorry pull this off on a tangent - there are much heavier-weighted variables than electricity cost for ASIC mining right now. The difficulty growth rate is going to escalate over the next few month - a bunch of big players are just starting to ship. Discussing electricity costs with no silicon to use that electricity, no power consumption data that could be taken seriously (Ken's claim that he'll be using the same boards for his 55 and 28nm chips show that he's either clueless or lying, making the rest of the stats meaningless). @SebastianJu:Yeah, you could be right, and I don't know either. The closest I got to electricity price shopping was opening ConEd billsAll I'm saying is people tend to grab good looking numbers and run with them as if they were facts, while the reality could be quite different. The .02 could be available every other Wednesday when the moon is full. The hosted customers have no cause to question it or complain because they never see the bill - they are paying $0.2669 regardless.Sorry pull this off on a tangent - there are much heavier-weighted variables than electricity cost for ASIC mining right now. The difficulty growth rate is going to escalate over the next few month - a bunch of big players are just starting to ship. Discussing electricity costs with no silicon to use that electricity, no power consumption data that could be taken seriously (Ken's claim that he'll be using the same boards for his 55 and 28nm chips show that he's either clueless or lying, making the rest of the stats meaningless).

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Sr. MemberActivity: 280Merit: 250IIIIII====II====IIIIII Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] January 30, 2014, 11:15:10 PM #8935 Quote from: finlof on January 30, 2014, 10:54:24 PM impossible to have a logical discussion with someone that just wants to argue and derail the discussion by focusing on stuff that has nothing to do with this company.



Just making a point about providing proof. I don't have Ken's certificates. You should have been asking these questions about his credentials 6months ago before you invested, it's a bit late now to be asking for this evidence - least of all from a fellow investor. I'm taking Ken at face value, that's what's called investor confidence. I also realise as an open and exposed individual who has involved his close family in this company that he has a lot to lose from outright lieing to shareholders. Just making a point about providing proof. I don't have Ken's certificates. You should have been asking these questions about his credentials 6months ago before you invested, it's a bit late now to be asking for this evidence - least of all from a fellow investor. I'm taking Ken at face value, that's what's called investor confidence. I also realise as an open and exposed individual who has involved his close family in this company that he has a lot to lose from outright lieing to shareholders.