Tillerson has a shaky show before skeptical senators Trump's secretary of state pick has a testy exchange with Republican Marco Rubio during his confirmation hearing.

Rex Tillerson had terse exchanges Wednesday with Republican Marco Rubio and other key senators during his confirmation hearing for the role of secretary of state, ducking questions on whether Russian leader Vladimir Putin is a "war criminal" or if the U.S. should sanction Moscow.

The former ExxonMobil CEO was at times astonishingly candid, even curt, at one point telling a senator “a little of both” when asked if he was refusing to answer a question or if he didn’t know the answer. Tillerson also struggled to clarify key issues, stating, for instance, that his company never lobbied against Russian sanctions, even though public records show the oil company repeatedly talked to lawmakers and the White House about the sanctions.


He hedged on questions about whether the governments in countries such as the Philippines and Saudi Arabia were human rights violators. And Tillerson would not say that he'd immediately back out of the nuclear agreement with Iran — a stance that puts him in opposition to some Republicans.

Tillerson’s shaky showing, and in particular his ugly clash with Rubio, did not bode well for his chance to get approval from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which has an 11-10 Republican-Democratic split, meaning even one GOP defection could spell trouble. Republican leaders could simply bring the nomination directly to the Senate floor, sidestepping the committee, but that would be a poor sign for his prospects.

Tillerson’s views on Russia, whose president he has known personally for many years, was a major focus of lawmakers from both parties. His appearance came as Republicans were reeling from unsubstantiated reports that Russia had gathered salacious, damaging material about President-elect Donald Trump.

Rubio, a hawkish Floridian who lost to Trump in the race for the GOP presidential nomination, pressed Tillerson on Russia's actions in bloody conflicts in Syria, Chechnya and beyond, as well as suspected Russian hacking and other interference in the U.S. election.

"Is Vladimir Putin a war criminal?" Rubio asked.

"I would not use that term," Tillerson replied.

Referring to the Russian-backed Syrian government's killing of civilians, Rubio at one point dismissed Tillerson's insistence that he didn't have the proper security clearance yet to have all the necessary information needed to draw conclusions about Russia's actions. And the two clashed over claims that Putin had ordered the killing of journalists and other opposition figures, with Tillerson snapping back at the senator.

The two also tangled on whether Saudi Arabia was a human rights violator due to its severe restrictions on women. Tillerson, who has frequently visited the oil rich Muslim kingdom, said the U.S. could do more harm than good by lobbing accusations against the Saudis, whose society he said was gradually seeing progress.

"Our interests are not different, senator, I share all the same values that you share," Tillerson told Rubio. "But I’m also clear-eyed and realistic about it."

On one area, however, Tillerson fell in line with Rubio: He said he'd urge Trump to veto any legislation that would lift the U.S. embargo on Cuba.

Rubio would not say whether the tough exchanges have made him more or less comfortable with Tillerson's nomination.

"We're going to discuss all that after the hearing. Let's let the hearing process conclude," Rubio said. "I'm not going to litigate a hearing in the press at this time."

But other Republicans told reporters they weren't nearly as worried about Tillerson's relative warmth to Putin. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) said he believes it's an "asset" that Tillerson has a relationship with Putin. And Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker, who got Tillerson to later clarify that he could potentially dub Putin a "war criminal" if he had access to classified information, said Tillerson was appropriately circumspect.

"If he had independent knowledge in classified sessions that the things that Rubio laid out were true, he would in fact consider that a war crime. So I think like any nominee you want to qualify your answers," Corker said.

In response to Sen. Chris Coons (D-Del.) Tillerson promised to “review” the Iran nuclear deal, but he didn’t say he’d want to immediately withdrawing from it. That will likely please the Obama administration, which considers the deal a key piece of its foreign policy legacy, though but Tillerson appeared skeptical overall of what the Islamic Republic’s long term goals are.

“The current agreement does freeze their ability to progress, but it does not ultimately deny their ability to have a nuclear weapon,” he said.

Speaking with a slow drawl, the 64-year-old Texan also declined to say whether he supported sanctions leveled against Russia by President Barack Obama's administration over its suspected meddling in the 2016 election. Trump himself has refused to accept the intelligence community's assessments that the Kremlin tried to turn the election in his favor.

The secretary of state nominee said he needed to examine the details of the existing sanctions as well as newly proposed ones by lawmakers. He said that it was important to look at all facets involved, including how the U.S. partners with the country being targeted in areas such as trade.

"It is important that those be dealt with on a country-by-country relationship," Tillerson said.

Later, when pressed, Tillerson insisted he would support sanctions if the Trump administration decided they were the most effective course of action to penalize a country such as Russia. As far as Russian cyber-attacks go, “We are being attacked,” Tillerson said. “I don’t dispute that statement.”

Tillerson also claimed that ExxonMobil had not lobbied against sanctions, although public records seem to show otherwise.

"I have never lobbied against sanctions, personally," said, who only recently left the company in order to serve as secretary of state. "To my knowledge Exxon never directly lobbied against sanctions."

As POLITICO reported last year, Exxon officials lobbied against a bill, known as the STAND for Ukraine Act, which would have enshrined Obama’s sanctions against Russia into law — making it more difficult for Trump to overturn them.

Tillerson countered later in the hearing that Exxon didn't specifically lobby against the sanctions, arguing that the company "participated in understanding how the sanctions are going to be constructed." He said he later talked to the Obama administration about the effects of the sanctions. "The characterization that ExxonMobil lobbied against the sanctions is just not accurate," he said.

Tillerson is required by an ethics agreement to recuse himself from all matters involving ExxonMobil for a year and he reiterated several times that he will adhere to that requirement. But senators' efforts to pin him down on a much longer commitment to do so were fruitless.

Tillerson also shrugged off questions from Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) about his tax returns, asking that his and his family’s privacy be respected. The foreign relations committee does not require a nominee's tax returns, though Democrats are seeking Tillerson's anyway.

"I’m mindful of privacy issues. I hope you’ll also respect the privacy of my and my family," Tillerson said.

Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Virginia) asked Tillerson if he had any knowledge of Trump’s personal or financial ties to Russia. Tillerson said he did not.

The senator managed to irk Tillerson by pressing him on allegations that ExxonMobil had misled the public and its investors about internal research on climate change. When Tillerson at one point dodged a question, Kaine asked: "Do you lack the knowledge to answer my question or are you refusing to answer my question?”

“A little of both,” Tillerson said.

In his prepared remarks, Tillerson said Russia needs to be held accountable when it is at odds with the United States but that an "open and frank dialogue" is necessary between the two countries, who could find common ground on issues such as fighting Islamist terrorism.

Russia, Tillerson added, poses a "danger" to the United States but "is not unpredictable in advancing its own interests."

America’s NATO allies have been worried about Trump’s seemingly shaky commitment to the military alliance. The Baltic countries are especially alarmed about potential Russian invasion or aggression against them.

Trump has said in the past that, regardless of NATO’s famous Article 5 provision, which states that an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all, that he may not come to a fellow NATO member’s aid if they have not been paying their fair share of the alliance’s defense budget.

But Tillerson took a more traditional view when asked about how the U.S. should react to an attack on states such as the Baltics. “The Article 5 commitment is inviolable and the United States is going to stand behind that commitment,” he said.

Tillerson also broke with Trump on the issue of nuclear proliferation, flatly saying "I do not agree," when asked to respond to a past Trump statement that U.S. allies Japan and South Korea may be better off having their own nuclear weapons.

On several occasions, Tillerson repeatedly declined to take a stand, saying he didn't have enough information. That included his responses to several senators as to whether he believed Rodrigo Duterte, the president of the Philippines, is committing human rights violations.

Under Duterte, thousands of people suspected in the drug trade have been killed extra-judicially. Tillerson, however, insisted he needed more facts about the situation, dismissing numerous news reports and chalking his approach up to his engineering background.

The aspiring secretary of state also expressed strong support for Israel, even though he also acknowledged that Palestinians have suffered due to the long-simmering conflict in that region. He said it might take another generation before the two sides achieve peace, but he pledged to stand up for Israel against other nations, including at forums like the United Nations.

Republican Sen. Todd Young of Indiana brought up Trump’s prolific, and erratic, use of Twitter, and asked Tillerson how he would react if the future president’s social media use undermined his diplomatic efforts.

“I don’t think I’m going to be telling the boss how he ought to communicate with the American people,” Tillerson said, before adding he would expect to be on the same page as Trump as far as policy goes.

And if there is a mix up? “I have his cell phone number,” Tillerson said.