Sen. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.) really didn’t want to admit he would raise taxes on the middle class during Thursday night’s Democratic primary debate.

“In a recent interview, you said you suspected that Americans would be, quote, ‘delighted’ to pay more taxes for things like that. Will taxes go up for the middle class under a Sanders administration, and if so how do you sell that to voters?” moderator Savannah Guthrie asked. After the candidate dodged her inquiry, instead describing a “new vision for America,” Guthrie pressed him to be clear.

“Sen. Sanders, I’ll give you 10 seconds just to answer the very direct question,” Guthrie shot back. “Will you raise taxes for the middle class in the Sanders administration?”

Moderator to Bernie Sanders: Will you raise taxes for the middle class? Sanders: Yes. They will pay more in taxes but less in healthcare for what they get pic.twitter.com/XpCCl4DjdO — POLITICO (@politico) June 28, 2019

The senator replied, “People who have healthcare under Medicare For All will have no premiums, no deductibles, no copayments, no out-of-pocket expenses.”

“Yes,” Sanders finally conceded, “they will pay more in taxes, but less in healthcare for what they get.”

It’s easy to campaign on tax hikes for Wall Street. It’s much harder to admit the middle class would be hit right along with it.