3/29/2012, irc

<niki7a> Why are SO many of you dicks?

<noid> as long as we dont do DC1 shirt reprints

<niki7a> It is the most popular vote as of yet

<BrokenCb1> 1 is?

<niki7a> yes

<noid> I'm sorry you folks missed it, i really am..

<BrokenCb1> are current results visible to the public?

<niki7a> Nope, current results are not visible

<niki7a> just admins of the survey

<noid> but at the same time, printing dc1 shirts wont let you experience it..

<roamer> i don't think we should reprint DC1

<roamer> i'm with noid on that. you were either there or you weren't

<niki7a> By that principle we shouldn't reprint dc 2 -dc 19

<noid> yup

<roamer> agreed

....

<niki7a> I hate the saying "real badges"

<flea> real basges vs ?

<niki7a> Badges are Badges.

<flea> you mean real vs paper?

<roamer> i am actually pissed that i don't have a full collection of paper badges

<flea> heh, me too

<Jake23> i liked the paper ones from dc 11

<Jake23> those were sweet

<flea> but I promise you, there are thousands of defcon attendees that don't feel that way

<niki7a> There is no less "real" to them if they are paper, it's still a fucking badge, I'm sorry your entitled whiny ass expects everything in the world. ( General you)

<flea> the badge is part of their experiance

<roamer> flea: i'm sure you speak true haha

<niki7a> Fuck that

<flea> it's somethign they collect

<niki7a> the con is the exp

<flea> the badge is a huge part of it

<flea> why do you think they line up?

<flea> I feel sorry for attendees that don't manage to trade in

<flea> though I think most of them do

<niki7a> I feel sorry for the attendees who don't realize how hard it is to put on this show, that shit runs out, and that they aren't going to find another con for this price that has 4 days of shit they can fucking fap to

<niki7a> Entitled fucks these days. Everything must be the way they want, and even when it is they still have shit to bitch about

<flea> I don't know. I feel like I have an idea how hard it is. And in all honesty, making defcon a place that makes attendees happy is a huge part of why I do it

<roamer> niki7a: i agree with you that there is a level of entitlement...

<roamer> however. i don't think it's unfair of them to want a non-paper badge

<roamer> and to be disappointed if they don't get one

<roamer> last year is a great example. you "needed" the badge to participate in the badge contest...which was plastered all over the rio

<niki7a> I didn't say it was unfair for them to want one, or be dissapointed, but to act as if they paid admission and they are being ripped off because their badge differs in materials is BS.

<roamer> if you didn't have it, you at a minimum felt like your experience had been reduced

<flea> the whole thing only exists because of and for attendees. yaknow. they pay the monies to come, we make it fun. they stop paying the monies, no fun.

<roamer> when DT gets on stage and says stuff like "the reason the price went up this year is because it cost us X dollars to make the badges" one has to wonder why an attendee that got a paper badge wouldn't feel "ripped off"

<whiteb0rd> Or why the price didn't go DOWN when the electronic badges went away

<roamer> i don't know that DT has ever given the exact cost of production number but he has made comments about price going up because of badge cost

<flea> the badge isn't your authentication token anymore. hasn't been for a long time. the badge is swag. imagine if we ran out of shirts and just wrote DEFCON MOTHERFUCKER across the front. they would be :(

<niki7a> Well, look at all the other shit we added to the con.....

<roamer> niki7a: i 100% agree with you that value to cost it is a fantastic deal

<niki7a> And FYI those titanium badges were no cost cutting thing

....

<niki7a> Okay....

<niki7a> Thank;s for sharing

<niki7a> :-P

<niki7a> Now that my kid's asleep I'm less cranky bitch.

<kallahar> we should do a second poll to see if people want a perfect reprint or for it to say "reprint" on it

<niki7a> Here's the thing, we aren't taking orders for what shirts we make and don't make, we are only considering what people are into, Jeff wanted to know what people are interested in, pretty simple, he will pick what he wants and that's the end of it, if it says reprint, or limited edition dc 20 version or not, it's not the end of the world, it would be like a few hundred shirts

<kallahar> sure, but if he's not aware that his decision might alienate people then that would be bad

<niki7a> Alienate people? Over a fucking t-shirt?

<niki7a> wow, big baby.

<kallahar> most people I know that have early defcon shirts take great pride in them, because they were there. if they get devalued then they're less special

<kallahar> yes, alienating people over a t-shirt

<niki7a> dude, that's....there are no words.

<kallahar> several people already said those words tonight, it's not just me

<noid> as one of those people who actually was there at these early ones, I'd agree

<noid> again, I'm sorry you folks missed it all..it was good times

<niki7a> And DT might feel exactly the same way, you're getting yourselves all worked up over nothing

<flea> same

<flea> this stuff IS important to us

<kallahar> exactly, let's make sure DT's aware of this potential problem.

<niki7a> If you followed that logic I guess I should tell DT that he shouldnt do ANY reprints

<noid> yup

<kallahar> oh I think a reprint is a great idea, just put an extra "DC20" on it somewhere to distinguish it.

<kallahar> or a collage, say "20 great years" and thumbnails of all the shirts, on the shirt

<flea> so if the idea is to kind of honor the defcon past by sharing some of the awesomeness with the new people, who are the vast majority, then, I get it

<flea> but a reprint of the shirt is not the way

<flea> how about a shirt that reprints all the shirt from 1-6 or something, in a smaller grid of shirts

<niki7a> I think in his mind, and i will say I can't speak for his intention, but I think he saw it as a way to reprint some of the shirts that were favorites from old timers like yourselves who needed a new copy or a new size, etc.

<flea> that's paying respect without taking significane away from the people that made it respectful in the first place

...

<niki7a> But to me, all I hear is don't reprint dc 1 shirts, cause I was there and leeter than you. You guys aren't bitching up a storm about reprinting dc 13 or 14 shirts.

<kallahar> no reprints of any con, including 19

<noid> you clearly hear what you want to hear then

<niki7a> Pot calling the kettle black noid

<noid> how so

<niki7a> You stir up so much shit you might as well work in sanitation.

<kallahar> wow

<flea> I don't think any shirts shold be reprinted in the original form

<noid> heh

<flea> we're talking about earlier defcon becuase thats what we all presume will be the popular choices

<niki7a> Well, it was DT's idea, and he wants to.

<noid> i see niki7a is in her usual form

<flea> and you can't say that you don't hear us say ok to printing them

<flea> myself and kallahar have both said that reprinting them is ok, just not in the their original form

<niki7a> Neil has a good point, you think you won't be able to tell the difference in a shirt that was made 20 yrs apart?

<niki7a> He also says, this is just in the discussion phase, so what we do about it is still in the air.

<kallahar> are you saying it's okay to counterfeit old defcon stuff because people should be able to tell the difference?

<flea> niki7a: it'd be nice if our opinion was part of the input

<niki7a> How did you remotely get counterfeiting in this.

<flea> WHAT

<flea> YOU'RE CONTERFEITING?!?!

<chs> <-- awesome at counterfeiting shit

<niki7a> How is your opinion NOT part of the input?

<kallahar> in my mind, any reprint is a "counterfeit" because it's not the original. (even if it's DT's idea/etc)

<flea> I'm going step out of the way

<niki7a> I don't advocate stepping out of the way, if you have an opinon, you should share it.

<flea> haha, my opinion is that the counterfeit argument is either a troll or stupid

<flea> I just figured you were going to talk about kicking him in the dick for a while or sometihign

<niki7a> I just think it's a bit much to say that people will be alienated because the founder of the conference decides to reprint a few t-shirts.

<niki7a> Fuck yeah, I'll see flea nekid, sign me up.

...

<kallahar> maybe we should just put all the years up online

<niki7a> We are not a print on demand service, but in that notion we do want to have an online store one day.

<kallahar> let's do reruns of badges too, and sell them online, so that everyone gets a souvenier

<niki7a> Actually Kallahar, DT wanted to that. so that when we start streaming people can still buy the stuff even though they are not there.

<kallahar> wow

<chs> I think it's retarded and rediculous to offer shirts for past defcons to people who have possibly never even been to a defcon before.

<chs> what the fuck is the point? besides making money, that is.

<niki7a> Retarded? Classy.

<chs> I mean, if the whole idea is "we want to commercialize defcon as much as possible" awesome. go for it.

<chs> yes, retarded. fucking retarded.

<chs> is there a point to this besides blatant commercialism?

<niki7a> How do you think we afford shit? I guess it should still cost $80, or better yet, free? The point of reprinting the shirts was jeff gets asked all the time, actually a lot of us get asked, how they can get a copy of a shirt they liked or used to have, or they BITCH NON STOP that the shirts sold out.

<tacitus> chs: defcon no longer refers it itself as "underground"

<kallahar> wait, what? is the convention itself not profitable?

<niki7a> Actually we do still refer to DEF CON as underground.

<chs> niki7a: two things. 1.) fuck'em if they missed out on a shirt OR 2.) print more fucking shirts.

<niki7a> Gee, I don't fucking know kallahar, do you? I guess we can tell jeff to fire his accountant.

<chs> simple economics.

<kallahar> I'm confused

<kallahar> you implied that DEF CON has to sell stuff online to pay the bills...

<chs> but doing reprints so that some 15 year old asshole can sport a Defcon 3 shirt is retarded. (again, with that classy, classy word)

<niki7a> I didn't say that at all.

<niki7a> I was referring to chs, comment about commercialism.

<kallahar> okay, then does the cost of DEF CON keep increasing to increase profit, or to cover the costs of con?

<chs> Hey, I'm all for Defcon making Jeff more and more money every year. So print more shirts each year if selling out is a problem.

<niki7a> What the fuck do you think? We keep doing more shit year adter year, it's a 4 day conference in las vegas? You don't think the cost of doing buisness is exponential

<chs> but to claim that Defcon can't support itself anymore without doing reprints is fucking ridiculous.

<niki7a> No body ever said that.

<kallahar> it's exactly what you're saying...

<chs> < niki7a> How do you think we afford shit?

<niki7a> NO it's not

<chs> < niki7a> How do you think we afford shit? <-- kinda is

<niki7a> SURE take a snippet from the sentence and mold it to what you want

<niki7a> you said is "I mean, if the whole idea is "we want to commercialize defcon as much as possible" awesome. go for it. "

<chs> yup. I stand by that.

<kallahar> is that the goal of DEF CON? make money?

<chs> instead of bitching, moaning, and drumming up excuses for why you want to reprint previous years shirts, just fucking admit that you wanna make more money and it's nothing more than that.

<chs> I will totally support that kind of honesty.

<niki7a> Yeah, and I stand by my statement, we make money, we rise costs, commercialism...it gets shit done.

<kallahar> you're the official spokesperson for defcon, right?

<niki7a> Wow, so a few hundred t-shirts is going to make DT Bags and bags of gold

<BrokenCb1> I worry about the commercialization in Defcon...

<niki7a> No.

<kallahar> what is your official position at DEF CON?

<niki7a> Are YOU Kallahar? Cause you seem to think what you say matters more than my opinion

<BrokenCb1> correlation is NOT causation, but I have observed a correlation between an expansion of commercialization and the kinds of attendees arriving *expecting* free stuff, and things to just be catered to them, with an idea that their $150? $160? pays for *everyrthing* they see or encounter

<chs> niki7a: if they aren't going to make DT bags and bags of gold, why do it? I thought this was about blatant commercialism?

<BrokenCb1> it is not just *defcon* official stuff...

<niki7a> The entitlement is insane.

<kallahar> I do not work for DEF CON, I work for the attendees

<BrokenCb1> it is alsot the contests, the parties, and more... with *sponsors* ?

<kallahar> you, on the otherhand, are an employee, right?

<niki7a> Chs, because people have ASKED for reprints and Jeff wanted to do something nice.

<BrokenCb1> I am not an employee. I am a volunteer.

<niki7a> I am an employee. A full time one.

<chs> niki7a: you said it was about blatant commercialism? now I'm confused.

<chs> if it's about making reprints for sorry sons of bitches who missed out, fuck'em. OR print more shirts next year.

<chs> if it's about milking the scene for as much money as possible, print away.

<chs> I think it's a pretty simple problem to solve

<vicTROLLA> +1 CHS. Defcon should do a better job of anticipating the demand. It's like no one counts how many tickets were sold

<niki7a> I was asked to preform a task, I don't know why you think bitching at ME is going to help your cause.

<chs> niki7a: then perform your fucking task and stop asking us our opinion.

<chs> niki7a: because we'll fucking give it to you hard.

<niki7a> Asking opinion was the task....or are you jumping on the don't know what i'm talking about I'm gonna bitch bandwagon?

<chs> BrokenCb1: that's why I finally stopped organizing the DC shoot :)

<chs> niki7a: so far the collective opinion seems to be "it's a retarded idea"

<chs> niki7a: but you're fighting that opinion like a crazed crack monkey

<niki7a> Actually, not the case. judging by the votes on the survey.

<vicTROLLA> niki7a, srsly what is your problem? You're playing the victim and it's annoying as shit. You asked everyones opinion and then everyone who spoke up you attacked in what you think is a PC yet backhanded fashion.

<niki7a> You don't even know WHAT i'm "fighting"

<kallahar> do you think the opinions of long time defcon attendees and volunteer staff count more or less than random people on the internet?

<chs> tell us what you're fighting, crack monkey.

<vicTROLLA> if you drop shitty comments on people giving you *SOLICITED* opinions you're bound to get static. You're troll bait at this point

<niki7a> Honestly, I don't give a fuck. It's up to JEFF what he wants to do, I think it's BS to act like it's a great tragedy to you guys if a few t-shirts are printed as a special case. The fact that you get all worked up about it is hilarious to me.

<vicTROLLA> yea you keep saying that

<vicTROLLA> we get it

<vicTROLLA> pack it in sister

<niki7a> STFU

<kallahar> it's pretty clear you don't care what we think

<vicTROLLA> oh lol

<chs> niki7a: you kinda do give a fuck. you keep bitching about our comments

<chs> where is this survey, so that I may give my opinion in a more "official" capacity?

<chs> since the survey is clearly what counts here.

<vicTROLLA> fucking chat gestapo. she doesn't want your opinion she wants to be the verbal winner

<niki7a> So you guy's think I completely ignore what you are saying? Which is why I advocated saying how you feel, writing it, and I posted it on the forums so DT could see it himself that you guys were not happy about it, but you bitch at me for a fucking survey you can't even be bothered to read or fill out.

<niki7a> www.surveymonkey.com/defconshirts

<chs> Ahh, there's the problem.

<chs> the survey doesn't allow for a "None. Because it's a retarded idea" answer.

<niki7a> It does...it's called OTHER and you write it in.

<chs> the survey is designed to only allow for positive results.

<chs> you're explicitly asking for tshirt reprint ideas, without allowing to any negativity.

<niki7a> So that's why there is a comment feild?

<chs> the question is weighted towards positive results.

<chs> people that have no dog in the fight, or who are against it, have no answer to give. so they will leave the survey alone.

<chs> except me. inserting inflammatory answer now.

<niki7a> Jeff didn't ask me to ask people if we think shirts should be done, but WHICH shirts should be done. The option for other is there for you to put in your feedback, and It's on the forums for you to discuss freely.

<chs> it is kinda funny. the only shirt I would ever care to have reprinted are Shadowvex's shirts, which were never official defcon shirts to begin with. So DT has no rights to them.

<Jake23> im down with that

<chs> well little crack monkey, I have given my opinion on the official poll.

<Jake23> nice

<Jake23> done and done

<niki7a> I'll now be adding a comment feild in the survey that say's NONE and a feedback box, just because you felt it did not allow for negative response, in the interest of fairness, Cockmonkey.

<Jake23> Vote: Propeller Hats in 2012

<Jake23> niki7a: why do you hate fun so much?

<niki7a> I pointed jeff to the thread, and he says that the shirts will have a design element to show it is not the original

<chs> niki7a: wow.. was that so hard?

<chs> niki7a: or was it just fun to make a gigantic fucking deal about it?