michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: The trial of Navy SEAL chief Edward Gallagher offered rare insight into a culture that is, by design, difficult to penetrate. Dave Philipps, who covers the military for The Times, on what he learned from the verdict. It’s Monday, July 8. Dave, the last time we talked, you told us about the allegations against Navy chief Edward Gallagher just as his case was heading into trial. Remind us what those allegations were.

dave philipps

So this is a guy who had served almost 20 years in the Marines and the Navy SEALs and had eight deployments and a chest full of commendations for heroic actions. And on his latest deployment to Iraq, he was turned in by his own men. And what they said is that while they were in Iraq, he shot at civilians with a sniper rifle. Specifically, he shot down a young girl in a flowered hijab. And he shot down an old man trying to get water from the river. And then perhaps most striking is a teenage ISIS captive came in to their base, and they were treating him for wounds he had gotten in a battle. And what his men say is Chief Gallagher came up, and without really any explanation, stabbed the teenager in the neck several times and killed him.

michael barbaro

So essentially, these are allegations of war crimes. And they’re being brought by his own subordinate.

dave philipps

Right, which is super unusual. The SEALs are not only secretive — most of their missions are literally classified — but they’re also a very tight brotherhood, where it’s considered to be pretty taboo to go outside of the tribe and report what happened, especially overseas. And to me, what I quickly learned was there was this really big and kind of existential schism within the SEALs, between a group that calls themselves the pirates — these are the rogues, the old-school dudes who really value their skills as war fighters — and the other folks, which I think the pirates call the boy scouts, people that see their role as elite commandos is absolutely dependent on transparency and rule of law. And so there was a big clash. Who is going to prevail in this culture, the guys who want to do anything that they feel is necessary to get the job done, or the guys who want accountability and want the rule of law?

michael barbaro

So tell us about the lead-up to this trial.

dave philipps

The prosecution thinks they’ve got a great case. They have text messages from the chief’s seized phone. In the first text message, he gets a custom-made knife from a former Navy SEAL who made it for him. And he texts back, thanks, I can’t wait to bury this in somebody’s skull. Then they have the eyewitness testimony of two Navy SEALs who say they witnessed the chief stab this ISIS prisoner who was about 15 years old in the neck. Then you have even more SEALs who, later that day, witnessed a meeting in which most of this detachment of the platoon confronted their chief and said, what you did was wrong. And he admits to it, saying, I’m sorry. I thought you guys would be cool with it. I won’t do it again where you guys can see it.

michael barbaro

Wow.

dave philipps

And finally, they have two text messages after the fact, where the chief texts pictures of himself holding up the body of the dead ISIS fighter by the hair, with his knife next to him, saying, good story behind this one. I got him with my hunting knife.

michael barbaro

Wow.

dave philipps

So essentially, you have him saying he’s going to do it. You have people saying they saw him do it. And you have him sending pictures to other SEALs, saying, look at what I just did. So it sounds like an open and shut case. But there are problems that start to emerge.

[music]

dave philipps

There are several SEALs that are planning to testify. And slowly pressure starts to build on them from the SEAL community, both active duty and veterans, saying things like, we don’t believe you. Chief Gallagher has a great reputation. He’s a real SEAL. You guys are traitors. These threats were threats to their careers as SEALs, threats to their safety. When war fighters whose job it is to perpetrate violence make those threats against other war fighters, they take it very seriously. And so they start to remember less. They start to tell the prosecutors they’re not so sure what they saw. They start to get lawyers who tell the prosecutor, sorry, my client is no longer interested in talking to you.

michael barbaro

So this pirate mentality is starting to prevail even before the trial is really underway.

dave philipps

Absolutely.

michael barbaro

O.K. So what happens when this trial actually begins?

archived recording 1 Today, in shackles, Navy SEAL Chief Edward Gallagher walked into court. [crowd cheering] archived recording 2 Cheered by supporters who called him a hero, but accused by the military of being a war criminal.

dave philipps

So the court-martial is convened at Naval Base San Diego. And the courtroom is literally steps from these huge rows of hulking gray battleships and cruisers. And the courtroom doesn’t look all that different from any municipal courtroom. But the jury definitely does. So under the military justice rules, the jury that judges you has to be the same rank or senior. In fact, they were able to pick a panel that was almost all enlisted career Marines. And in this day and age, that meant that they had done multiple tours on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq. And that was really a conscious effort by the defense. They wanted people who had been on the ground in combat. I think that they thought that they would see Chief Gallagher through the most sympathetic eyes.

michael barbaro

And so what’s the case that the prosecution makes to this jury?

dave philipps

The prosecution starts out the trial with its strongest witnesses, SEALs who were there on the ground on the day in Mosul, Iraq, where they say the chief stabbed and killed this ISIS fighter. And they start to tell the story of this chaotic battle, where the SEALs are on the edge of the city sort of directing things, helping the Iraqi partner forces fight ISIS. And they get some radio intelligence that there’s a farmhouse full of ISIS fighters. And an American helicopter launches two missiles at this house and levels it. The only one surviving is this teenage fighter. And he gets brought in to the SEAL base. Now, what was astounding — I didn’t know going in — is that Chief Gallagher was not at the base that morning. He was actually two or three miles away. He was on the front in a gun truck helping the Iraqis. Chief Gallagher is the highest enlisted person in the SEAL platoon. His job is to oversee all the tactics. In a sense, he’s the coach of the basketball team with his clipboard and his Xs and Os. There is an active battle going on. SEALs are engaged in that battle. But people testify that when he hears it’s actually an ISIS captive, he says, no one touch him. He’s mine. And he then drives two or three miles back, away from the fight, to their outpost to see this fighter. Everybody agrees about that. But then two SEALs testify that Chief Gallagher, for no clear reason, for reasons that even when pressed on the stand, they couldn’t offer any insight into, Chief Gallagher pulls out this custom knife and stabs the fighter repeatedly in the neck.

michael barbaro

Wow. So this sounds like incredibly damning testimony. What reason would there be to not believe these SEALs who said that they saw this happen?

dave philipps

So there’s this story that’s been told over and over, first by Chief Gallagher’s wife —

archived recording (andrea gallagher) There is no way to describe what it looks like to be maliciously lied about, to be at the end of a game of telephone that now has resulted in my husband’s life is on the line.

dave philipps

— and Chief Gallagher’s brother —

archived recording (sean gallagher) The malicious and slanderous lies emanate from two people that we know. We know who they are. We know why they’re telling these stories.

dave philipps

— then, by members of Congress —

archived recording (duncan hunter) So let’s say that Chief Gallagher killed a verified, designated ISIS combatant. My answer is so what? That’s his job.

dave philipps

And finally, by the defense in the courtroom. And the story is this. This is not actually a murder case. It’s a mutiny — that Chief Gallagher’s underlings decided they didn’t like him. And what the defense says is they decided they didn’t like him over small things, that he was too hard on them, that he was taking them on missions they thought were too dangerous. A defense attorney described them as, quote, “entitled millennials.” And he made a big deal about how whiny they were about how he was taking their beef jerky and their PowerBars without asking. And the defense’s theory is that because of these small slights, a group of SEALs in the platoon decided, we’re going to get rid of Chief Gallagher. First, they started telling their commanders about little problems. And that didn’t get rid of Chief Gallagher. So they made up something bigger and bigger until it was a murder charge. And by then, they had lost control, and this case started. And there was nothing they could do.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

dave philipps

The prosecution basically ignored this whole theory, because they had confidence in their eyewitnesses. But then all of that changed. Their star witness was a medic named Corey Scott. And he was important because he had been right at the head of this ISIS captive the whole time that they were treating him. He not only saw everything, he had the medical training to describe it and describe watching this ISIS captive die. And he had told Navy investigators and prosecutors repeatedly about this in detail. So they had saved him as sort of the nail to put this whole eyewitness scene in place. And so he comes up on the stand. He looks over at Chief Gallagher, and he starts to go through his testimony of this scene, where this barely conscious fighter was brought in. They sedated him. They put an emergency breathing tube in his throat, and then they started treating his collapsed lung. But when he gets to the part where the chief suddenly stabs the fighter in the neck, he starts to hem and haw. Where he had told investigators he stabbed him two or three times, he says, well, I only saw him stab him once. And I’m not sure how deep it went. I didn’t even see any blood. I don’t think those wounds would have killed him. He just seemed stable after that. And then I waited around until he asphyxiated. And the prosecution starts getting flustered. And the prosecutor sat down from his examination, clearly perplexed about what was happening. But then the defense stood up for cross-examination and was ready and asked, essentially, what do you mean you stayed around till he asphyxiated? Did Chief Gallagher kill this man? The medic said, no. And he said, how do you know? And the medic said, because I killed him.

michael barbaro

Wow.

dave philipps

I put my thumb over his breathing tube, and I suffocated him.

michael barbaro

The medic says that he killed the captive.

dave philipps

That’s right. And because before the trial the medic had been given testimonial immunity, he couldn’t be punished for anything he said on the stand, even murder. And he looked at Chief Gallagher, and he said, I’m the one who did it.

michael barbaro

Dave, what are you thinking as you hear this? How are you making sense of this? What is this?

dave philipps

The first thing that comes in my head is this is not supposed to happen. This is what happens in every TV court show you’ve ever seen. But it never actually happens in court. This is the type of perjury, take the fall at any cost type of behavior you see in a gang trial, not in the trial of elite commandos. And so everybody in the courtroom was shocked.

michael barbaro

And I wonder what Gallagher’s reaction was.

dave philipps

So this is what’s interesting, and I don’t know what to make of it. But that day, Edward Gallagher chose to bring his children into the courtroom. They had never been there before. They were never there since. But his wife, his children, his brother, his parents were there to hear this testimony.

michael barbaro

Are you suggesting that the defense and Gallagher may have known that this was going to happen, that this was somehow coordinated? He anticipated a kind of exoneration?

dave philipps

The lead defense attorney insists that that is not true. But there were several signs from me sitting in the courtroom that I saw that suggested to me that something larger was at play — the presence of his family, the extended eye contact between the medic on the stand, the defense attorneys and Chief Gallagher. The fact that the defense attorney was so ready on this cross-examination — he didn’t seem shocked at all about any of this testimony. It all seemed to have a very choreographed nature. And that day I talked to a few SEALs in the platoon. And I said, how could this happen? Did you know about this? And they said to me, we’re just as shocked as you are. The medic never said anything about this to us. And one of them said to me, I think the pressure got to him.

michael barbaro

I can’t imagine how panicked the prosecution is in this moment. They’ve lost their star witness. Furthermore, the star witness, it feels like, has taken the fall. What does that look like in the courtroom?

dave philipps

Well, what is more telling is not how it looks in the courtroom — because I think they did a very good job of holding things together — but outside of the courtroom, there are people on their witness list who they have scheduled to call and now they realize they can’t trust, because if this medic says this, who knows what the other guys are going to say? And so the medic is essentially the last witness to the stabbing they call. The others that they have they leave on ice, because they’re afraid of what will happen.

michael barbaro

So they’re starting to wonder if there’s been a wholesale flip by their witnesses.

dave philipps

Yeah. Yeah. The defense attorney asked, why would you admit to this killing? And he looked at Chief Gallagher and said, because he’s got a wife and a family. And I didn’t want him to spend his whole life in prison. And I think that there are guys who looked at this and said, yeah, he killed that ISIS fighter. But do I want to stand up there and put him away and take the heat for that? And the answer for some of them was no.

michael barbaro

So what’s the impact of this shocking turn in the trial?

dave philipps

Well, the prosecution still had a shred of hope, because when the medic testified that he was the murderer, he also said, yes, I saw Edward Gallagher stab this captive in the neck. And so I think they thought that that helped their case to the extent that if there wasn’t a murder here, there was at least a stabbing. And the jury in this case, they not only have discretion in what charge to convict him of, but unlike civilian juries, they get to pick the punishment. So they have a maximum, but they have no minimum. They could convict him of murder and foreseeably sentence him to no punishment. So they go in, really, with complete freedom — not only to decide what happened and what is he guilty of doing, but how should he be reprimanded for that? Those are all questions that as they go into deliberations, they get to answer, with none of us in the room to see what happened.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Dave, what was the scene in the courtroom as the jury prepares to announce its verdict?

dave philipps

We figured we’d be in for days of deliberations. But just a few hours later, after a total of eight hours of deliberation, we get a frantic text from a Navy spokesman that the verdict is in. In the courtroom, Chief Gallagher is sitting there with his dress whites, with his gold trident on. And the jury comes in, and they start reading off the seven counts — not guilty of murder, not guilty of attempted murder, not guilty of obstruction of justice. The only thing that he was guilty of was the most minor charge, which is that he showed behavior prejudicial to good order and discipline by posing with the dead body of the ISIS fighter.

michael barbaro

So according to this jury, he is guilty only of posing for a photo with a dead man who, according to this verdict, it would seem, the medic killed, not Gallagher.

dave philipps

That’s right. And the next morning he was sentenced. They reduced him in rank one level. They docked a little bit of his pay. They sentenced him to four months in prison, which was automatically wiped clean because of his prior time in the brig. And he left. He left and essentially went back to life as a SEAL.

michael barbaro

A free man.

dave philipps

A free man.

michael barbaro

And he’s still a Navy SEAL.

dave philipps

Right. And for the first time, we get to hear from him. Here’s a man who sat silently during his whole testimony. Never testified, never spoke to the media, never released any statements before trial. And early, early the next morning, he gets together with his family and his lawyers for a live shot with “Fox & Friends,” which has been his biggest supporter for months.

archived recording Well, let’s right now bring in for his first exclusive interview Navy SEAL Operations Chief Eddie Gallagher, his wife Andrea, and attorney Tim Parlatore. Thank you all for joining us —

dave philipps

And we finally get to hear from him and what his take on this whole thing is.

archived recording (edward gallagher) I just want to say that I feel completely grateful and blessed.

dave philipps

He just wants to say one thing.

archived recording — a new normal. Eddie, what’s your message, briefly, to future Navy SEALs, guys who would wear that trident, who would go do the things you’ve done? Are we giving them rules of engagement? Are we empowering them the way we need to to go defeat our enemies? archived recording (edward gallagher) I have to say that — so on rules of engagement, I’m not going to speak on rules of engagement or anything that overseas. I’m going to leave that to the people that are fighting the fight over there. And the rules of engagement are there. But I would say to future Navy SEALs, loyalty is a trait that seems to be lost. And I would say bring that back. You’re part of a brotherhood. Remember, you’re there to watch your brother’s back. He’s there to watch your back. And just stay loyal.

dave philipps

Stay loyal.

archived recording (tim parlatore) Loyalty and honesty. archived recording (edward gallagher) And honesty.

[music]

michael barbaro

Dave, have you spoken to any of the SEALs who made the decision to testify against their commander since the verdict? Because I have to wonder what they’re thinking now that after all that, Gallagher is essentially the one whose narrative has won out.

dave philipps

Yeah. I’ve spoken to a handful, yes.

michael barbaro

And what do they say?

dave philipps

They’re sad. They’re disappointed. They have seen friends change their testimony or others back out. A lot of them made sacrifices that now seem to have been, they feel, for nothing. But I think that the general feeling was, well, what else different could we have done? If you had witnessed what we witnessed, what would you do? And I don’t think that they regret they did it. They just now have to live with the aftermath.

michael barbaro

Well, so what is going to happen to those SEALs who testified against Gallagher?

dave philipps

That’s a really open question. I think for the larger SEAL community, it was really a lesson, a lesson that it’s very costly to come out and speak about something. A number of these guys either damaged their careers or irreparably damaged their reputations. They’ll have a very hard road ahead if they choose to stay in the SEALs.

[music]

michael barbaro

How much of this comes down to the medic and to what he claimed happened? Or do you think that this jury of Gallagher’s military peers would have been so sympathetic to him anyway that it would have been a verdict like it was?

dave philipps

In the military, the jury is not allowed to speak afterwards. So this is a question we can’t answer. But you’ve got to assume that if they believed the medic, then they would believe there was a stabbing. And they said that he was not guilty of a stabbing. So maybe the medic wasn’t that important at all. Maybe if he said, yes, I saw him stab and kill this man, this jury of combat veterans, of senior enlisted guys who’d been on the ground multiple times, would have come to the same conclusion, that this guy deserves to go free.

michael barbaro

Thank you very much, Dave.

dave philipps

Thank you.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. On Sunday, Iran said it would begin enriching uranium above the limits of the 2015 nuclear deal with the U.S. and its allies, moving the country closer to being able to produce an atomic bomb. It was the latest provocation from Iran since the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal and imposed a series of increasingly harsh sanctions against Iran. And —

archived recording (joe biden) Now, was I wrong a few weeks ago to somehow give the impression to people that I was praising those men who I successfully opposed time and again? Yes, I was. I regret it.

michael barbaro

Former Vice President Joe Biden has apologized for remarks in which he fondly recalled working with senators who supported segregation.

archived recording (joe biden) I’m sorry for any of the pain or misconception I may have caused anybody. [applause]

michael barbaro

The apology came during a speech to a mostly black audience in South Carolina after weeks of criticism from fellow Democrats that Biden seemed to be condoning racist views.

[applause] archived recording (joe biden) But should that misstep define 50 years of my record for fighting for civil rights, racial justice in this country? I hope not. I don’t think so.

michael barbaro

Finally —

[crowd cheering] archived recording Rose up the middle, looking, cutting, shooting, goal. Bravo! 2-0, the U.S.

michael barbaro

The United States has won the Women’s World Cup in a 2-0 victory over the Netherlands.

[crowd cheering] archived recording The biggest goal of Rose Lavelle’s life.

michael barbaro

During the tournament, the team became a symbol of a broader fight for gender equality after the players sued their employer, the U.S. Soccer Federation, citing inferior wages and working conditions compared with the U.S. men’s team. Following the team’s victory, thousands of fans inside the stadium in France broke into chants of support for the lawsuit.

archived recording Equal pay, equal pay, equal pay, equal pay!

michael barbaro