ComradeDover Profile Joined November 2009 Bulgaria 758 Posts #1 I'm not the greatest player, so my thinking might be completely off here, but...



With regard to macro mechanics, it seems like Supply Drop (If you can call Supply Drop a macro mechanic, I would) seems to be really undervalued. Part of the reason is obvious -- Scan is an old favorite with a myriad of uses and MULES are useful as well, but I can't help but feel there's something to Supply Drop that a lot of people are missing.



Consider a hypothetical scenario that happens all the time in many games featuring a Terran player; You have 50 or more energy on your Orbital Command and have no immediate need to scan. You're also close to being supply capped, and it's time to build a new depot. You can either:

1) Call down a MULE (Which mines about 300 minerals during it's lifetime, right?), have it and your SCVs mine 100 minerals and build a new supply depot. If you do this, total income = (300 - 100) = 200 + whatever your SCVs mine. Of course, you don't actually get any more resources than you would have without MULE -- the amount in the mineral fields remains constant, regardless of how fast you drain it.

2) Use supply drop. Your income remains unchanged, but you now have 100 minerals that you would have spent on supply to spend on something else. Furthermore, unlike MULE which is a benefit with a drawback (faster mining = being mined out faster), the 100 minerals that you "gain" from supply drop are pretty much permanent (unless the target depot is destroyed, obviously). A 2-base terran who's mined out on all his bases who used supply drop will have 100 x (times supply drop used) more minerals worth of stuff compared to one who used MULE.



Still, even on paper, it seems like option 1 is a no-brainer, right? You get 200 minerals you wouldn't have had before, and I grant that in many cases you could find many uses for those more immediate 200 minerals, including make more CCs/workers to expo with, or units to help secure more expos. But that can't last forever, and from what I've noticed other races are far better at expanding than Terran is. By the time you reach that point, though, you're pretty much done making supply depots...



I guess what I'm getting at is I'm questioning if Supply Drop is really quite as bad as people make it out to be in the long run. Can someone smarter than me shed some light on this? Am I totally misguided here? Bring back 2v2s!

Tinithor Profile Joined February 2008 United States 1552 Posts #2 Most people are more concerned with the short term and just survivng and/or killing their opponent instead of trying to win the resource battle when the entire map is mined out.



I don't think its AWFUL but i certainly think the extra units sooner you would get from the mule is more helpful, it will allow you to take more bases and stop the enemy from doing the same. "Oh-My-GOD" ... "Is many mutas, Yes?"

A3iL3r0n Profile Blog Joined October 2002 United States 2196 Posts #3 Supply drop probably wouldn't be that bad if you had 3 CC's to give you 24 free supply. In general, it's an obvious third to MULE and scan. My psychiatrist says I have deep-seated Ragneuroses :(

Cade)Flayer Profile Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 279 Posts #4 Supply Drop is great when you screw up and hear that dreaded warning about needing more supply though :p That boys a monster

ArvickHero Profile Blog Joined October 2007 10379 Posts #5 I'm sure Supply Drop will be figured into some elaborate 2-base all-in play sometime into the future Writer ptrk

SilentCrono Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United States 1420 Posts #6 i never really do supply drop unless i have excess energy with any of my CC's (which is a bad sign in and of itself because that means i'm not macroing well enough) ♞ Your soul will forever be lost in the void of a horse. ♞

ComradeDover Profile Joined November 2009 Bulgaria 758 Posts #7 On March 27 2010 12:49 Tinithor wrote:

Most people are more concerned with the short term and just survivng and/or killing their opponent instead of trying to win the resource battle when the entire map is mined out.



I don't think its AWFUL but i certainly think the extra units sooner you would get from the mule is more helpful, it will allow you to take more bases and stop the enemy from doing the same.



I suppose everyone hopes for a fast conclusion to a game, and the goal of StarCraft is to win, not be efficient. I understand what you've said is the prevailing feeling on the matter, but I just can't shake the feeling that there's more to it than that.



I suppose everyone hopes for a fast conclusion to a game, and the goal of StarCraft is to win, not be efficient. I understand what you've said is the prevailing feeling on the matter, but I just can't shake the feeling that there's more to it than that. On March 27 2010 12:51 A3iL3r0n wrote:

Supply drop probably wouldn't be that bad if you had 3 CC's to give you 24 free supply. In general, it's an obvious third to MULE and scan.



I'm not sure I understand. In what situation would I need to build three supply depots at once? And if I did for whatever reason, wouldn't a single orbital command with energy saved up serve me just as well?



I'm not sure I understand. In what situation would I need to build three supply depots at once? And if I did for whatever reason, wouldn't a single orbital command with energy saved up serve me just as well? On March 27 2010 12:56 Cade)Flayer wrote:

Supply Drop is great when you screw up and hear that dreaded warning about needing more supply though :p



Of course, but that can't be it's only use. If it was, it would be nothing more than a crutch for bad players, and at high level play it really would be as bad as it's portrayed on the forums.



Of course, but that can't be it's only use. If it was, it would be nothing more than a crutch for bad players, and at high level play it really would be as bad as it's portrayed on the forums. On March 27 2010 12:56 ArvickHero wrote:

I'm sure Supply Drop will be figured into some elaborate 2-base all-in play sometime into the future



So the potential is there, right? I'm not crazy? So the potential is there, right? I'm not crazy? Bring back 2v2s!

Annihilator_ Profile Joined March 2010 United States 4 Posts #8 Don't you also have to factor in the the minerals your supply depot SCV misses out on when he's building it? Granted its probably like 50 minerals but it's still something. MULE and Scan are still better I think and I'm guessing supply drop is only there for those "oh shit" moments. Raven... online

Tinithor Profile Joined February 2008 United States 1552 Posts #9 Even for like... a timing attack i feel like the extra minerals a mule brings in would be better for getting out more units FAST than the supply drop. I really don't see its uses in high level play (great for new players tho really, cause they already have trouble spending the minerals they have) "Oh-My-GOD" ... "Is many mutas, Yes?"

ComradeDover Profile Joined November 2009 Bulgaria 758 Posts #10 On March 27 2010 13:10 Annihilator_ wrote:

Don't you also have to factor in the the minerals your supply depot SCV misses out on when he's building it? Granted its probably like 50 minerals but it's still something.



Oh shit, I had completely forgotten about that. And you're right, it's minor but it's still something, as as SC2 becomes more and more "figured out", small things like that will matter more and more.



It would be pretty difficult to figure out the exact amount lost, though, and would depend on a number of factors like distance from mineral field to depot location, etc... Oh shit, I had completely forgotten about that. And you're right, it's minor but it's still something, as as SC2 becomes more and more "figured out", small things like that will matter more and more.It would be pretty difficult to figure out the exact amount lost, though, and would depend on a number of factors like distance from mineral field to depot location, etc... Bring back 2v2s!

ComradeDover Profile Joined November 2009 Bulgaria 758 Posts Last Edited: 2010-03-27 04:27:24 #11 On March 27 2010 13:13 Tinithor wrote:

Even for like... a timing attack i feel like the extra minerals a mule brings in would be better for getting out more units FAST than the supply drop. I really don't see its uses in high level play (great for new players tho really, cause they already have trouble spending the minerals they have)



I guess it's because, contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that Blizzard is not dumbing down StarCraft in SC2, and this is making me look for possible high-level applications of Supply Drop. Maybe I'm wrong, and they don't exist, although I'd really like to believe otherwise.



Assuming you're right, and Supply Drop is only useful in lower-level play, what changes could potentially "fix" this? (I'm also loath to ask this since I believe that there isn't a big need for lots of drastic balance changes...)



Perhaps if MULES were changed so they couldn't mine from already-saturated minerals? That would be a sizable nerf to MULES, but they would still remain useful for getting immediate income out of newly-established expansions (Particularly the juicy gold mineral expos, where MULES are being called down when possible anyway), and at the same time it would free up Orbital Command energy for Scan and eventually Supply Drop? Of course such a change would affect the entire Terran race taken as a whole, and not just the energy tension of the Orbital Command... I guess it's because, contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that Blizzard is not dumbing down StarCraft in SC2, and this is making me look for possible high-level applications of Supply Drop. Maybe I'm wrong, and they don't exist, although I'd really like to believe otherwise.Assuming you're right, and Supply Drop is only useful in lower-level play, what changes could potentially "fix" this? (I'm also loath to ask this since I believe that there isn't a big need for lots of drastic balance changes...)Perhaps if MULES were changed so they couldn't mine from already-saturated minerals? That would be a sizable nerf to MULES, but they would still remain useful for getting immediate income out of newly-established expansions (Particularly the juicy gold mineral expos, where MULES are being called down when possible anyway), and at the same time it would free up Orbital Command energy for Scan and eventually Supply Drop? Of course such a change would affect the entire Terran race taken as a whole, and not just the energy tension of the Orbital Command... Bring back 2v2s!

Divinek Profile Blog Joined November 2006 Canada 4043 Posts #12 On March 27 2010 13:26 ComradeDover wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 27 2010 13:13 Tinithor wrote:

Even for like... a timing attack i feel like the extra minerals a mule brings in would be better for getting out more units FAST than the supply drop. I really don't see its uses in high level play (great for new players tho really, cause they already have trouble spending the minerals they have)



I guess it's because, contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that Blizzard is not dumbing down StarCraft in SC2, and this is making me look for possible high-level applications of Supply Drop. Maybe I'm wrong, and they don't exist, although I'd really like to believe otherwise.



. I guess it's because, contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that Blizzard is not dumbing down StarCraft in SC2, and this is making me look for possible high-level applications of Supply Drop. Maybe I'm wrong, and they don't exist, although I'd really like to believe otherwise.

they are dumbing it down, auto mine, auto split, mbs, smart casting, auto surround etc etc. But that's not the point, supply drop really would be only useful for bad players, though that's a pretty large application right there isnt it. MULE and scan are just better in every way, supply drop can't ever be used in some high level way except for maybe some all in build where this gives you extra supply really fast...even then im sure a MULE would give you the same thing if you just build a supply depot with the resources you get on top of everything else. they are dumbing it down, auto mine, auto split, mbs, smart casting, auto surround etc etc. But that's not the point, supply drop really would be only useful for bad players, though that's a pretty large application right there isnt it. MULE and scan are just better in every way, supply drop can't ever be used in some high level way except for maybe some all in build where this gives you extra supply really fast...even then im sure a MULE would give you the same thing if you just build a supply depot with the resources you get on top of everything else. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.

RatherGood Profile Joined March 2010 Canada 147 Posts Last Edited: 2010-03-27 04:39:48 #13 On March 27 2010 13:26 ComradeDover wrote:

I guess it's because, contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that Blizzard is not dumbing down StarCraft in SC2, and this is making me look for possible high-level applications of Supply Drop. Maybe I'm wrong, and they don't exist, although I'd really like to believe otherwise.

.



Agreed, and I think you're on the right track. Here's another way to look at it for other people. Every other ability, unit, and building has a purpose in this game. Nothing is designed to be a crutch for low level or incompetent players. Following this logic, why do you automatically assume that Supply Depot is? I mean, that may be the case, I'm certainly not the voice of authority here, but it doesn't follow the trend of the game. I just can't see a team of developers, especially Blizzard, spending half a decade on a game and just deciding that one of the race's core abilities is for inept or forgetful players when the others are not.



I feel like there's something more to it too, I just haven't put much thought into yet as I'm learning all the other mechanics of the game still. Agreed, and I think you're on the right track. Here's another way to look at it for other people. Every other ability, unit, and building has a purpose in this game. Nothing is designed to be a crutch for low level or incompetent players. Following this logic, why do you automatically assume that Supply Depot is? I mean, thatbe the case, I'm certainly not the voice of authority here, but it doesn't follow the trend of the game. I just can't see a team of developers, especially Blizzard, spending half a decade on a game and just deciding that one of the race's core abilities is for inept or forgetful players when the others are not.I feel like there's something more to it too, I just haven't put much thought into yet as I'm learning all the other mechanics of the game still.

Orome Profile Blog Joined June 2004 Switzerland 9064 Posts #14 I'm sure we'll find uses for supply drop eventually, but builds will have to get a little more sophisticated first. Its main advantage over mule is of course that you get the 100 minerals instantly (or rather, you don't have to spend the 100 minerals) which could be extremely important for some tight build orders. On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer

Rice Profile Blog Joined July 2007 United States 1251 Posts Last Edited: 2010-03-27 04:43:59 #15 The thing is you can't really prepare to be mined out and even if you are mined out there are probably other bases on the map that aren't mined out. You can't really develop a strategy to bring every single game to 100% mined out maps.(If you can by all means go for that!) Any games where you are using supply drop instead of MULE that don't go to the mined out stage, a mule would've been a better use of energy.(aside from a few scenarios) Freedom will be defended at the cost of civil liberties.

Funchucks Profile Joined June 2007 Canada 2113 Posts #16 On March 27 2010 13:10 Annihilator_ wrote:

Don't you also have to factor in the the minerals your supply depot SCV misses out on when he's building it? Granted its probably like 50 minerals but it's still something. MULE and Scan are still better I think and I'm guessing supply drop is only there for those "oh shit" moments.

Compare:

take SCV off mining

spend 100 minerals up front

start building supply depot

wait 30 seconds (loss of ~50 minerals, possibility of a probe picking off your builder)

increase supply by 8



So there's a starting cost of 100, and an ongoing cost of ~50. More importantly, you don't get your supply until 30 seconds



Or:

calldown supplies

increase supply by 8



This doesn't pay as much as getting a mule, but it pays off before you use it. By the time you use it, you've already had an extra 150 minerals to spend as a result, 100 minerals can be spent 30 seconds before your calldown, and 50 additional minerals are gathered in the time between your decision not to build a supply depot, and the calldown.



The mule does pay off better, giving 240-270 minerals, but they come in minutes later. You've waited 2 minutes and lost 170-220 minerals out of your base's reserve, to get 70-120 more minerals.



The mule is more of a mid-term investment, while the supply calldown is better in both the short term (faster payoff) and the long term (your profit does not come at the expense of mining out sooner). Compare:take SCV off miningspend 100 minerals up frontstart building supply depotwait 30 seconds (loss of ~50 minerals, possibility of a probe picking off your builder)increase supply by 8So there's a starting cost of 100, and an ongoing cost of ~50. More importantly, you don't get your supply until 30 secondsOr:calldown suppliesincrease supply by 8This doesn't pay as much as getting a mule, but it pays off. By the time you use it, you've already had an extra 150 minerals to spend as a result, 100 minerals can be spent 30 seconds before your calldown, and 50 additional minerals are gathered in the time between your decision not to build a supply depot, and the calldown.The mule does pay off better, giving 240-270 minerals, but they come in minutes later. You've waited 2 minutes and lost 170-220 minerals out of your base's reserve, to get 70-120 more minerals.The mule is more of a mid-term investment, while the supply calldown is better in both the short term (faster payoff) and the long term (your profit does not come at the expense of mining out sooner). I serve my houseguests slices of butter.

P00RKID Profile Joined December 2009 United States 424 Posts #17 A good use of a supply drop: When the enemy targets and kills off some of your supply depots, dropping you into Red supply, it is better to use Supply drop so you don't have a stall in Unit Production. Sure, you could use mule, and wait for SCVs to build more supply depots, but if you NEED those units SOONER than LATER, supply drop is your fast fix. No need in having extra money from the mule if you can't spend it from supply block. "Does your butt hurt? 'cause you fell from heaven once the cast was over?" Artosis

Flames Profile Blog Joined March 2010 United States 105 Posts #18 As of now, Supply Drop seems to be useful only when you mess up and are about to be capped on supply.



I'm sure in the future however, people will start using supply drop to save money for a quick rush tactic. Save the 100 minerals for a new production building or upgrades. Mule is great and all, but if the the 300 minerals come over 90 seconds and a quick 100 mineral boost maybe all you need. Maybe fast tech to banshees? =P Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Tinithor Profile Joined February 2008 United States 1552 Posts #19 On March 27 2010 13:37 RatherGood wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 27 2010 13:26 ComradeDover wrote:

I guess it's because, contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that Blizzard is not dumbing down StarCraft in SC2, and this is making me look for possible high-level applications of Supply Drop. Maybe I'm wrong, and they don't exist, although I'd really like to believe otherwise.

.



Agreed, and I think you're on the right track. Here's another way to look at it for other people. Every other ability, unit, and building has a purpose in this game. Nothing is designed to be a crutch for low level or incompetent players. Following this logic, why do you automatically assume that Supply Depot is? I mean, that may be the case, I'm certainly not the voice of authority here, but it doesn't follow the trend of the game. I just can't see a team of developers, especially Blizzard, spending half a decade on a game and just deciding that one of the race's core abilities is for inept or forgetful players when the others are not.



I feel like there's something more to it too, I just haven't put much thought into yet as I'm learning all the other mechanics of the game still. Agreed, and I think you're on the right track. Here's another way to look at it for other people. Every other ability, unit, and building has a purpose in this game. Nothing is designed to be a crutch for low level or incompetent players. Following this logic, why do you automatically assume that Supply Depot is? I mean, thatbe the case, I'm certainly not the voice of authority here, but it doesn't follow the trend of the game. I just can't see a team of developers, especially Blizzard, spending half a decade on a game and just deciding that one of the race's core abilities is for inept or forgetful players when the others are not.I feel like there's something more to it too, I just haven't put much thought into yet as I'm learning all the other mechanics of the game still.



Look, if you have any ideas then i'd be glad to listen to them, but really the ONLY time i can see it would be better is when the entire map is mined out or very close to it, and very few games ever reach this stage.



I guess it could also be usefull to like... recover from supply depot snipes faster (on your front door or from a drop or whatever), but to build a strategy around them doesn't help at ALL in the short term (cause mules will get your more money and stuff faster). Its not good for timing attacks like i said cause the mule gets more units out, perhaps if you INSIST on going all in on one base you could potentially eek out a handful more units by the end, but that just gives the enemy more time to prepare for it and fend you off. Look, if you have any ideas then i'd be glad to listen to them, but really the ONLY time i can see it would be better is when the entire map is mined out or very close to it, and very few games ever reach this stage.I guess it could also be usefull to like... recover from supply depot snipes faster (on your front door or from a drop or whatever), but to build a strategy around them doesn't help at ALL in the short term (cause mules will get your more money and stuff faster). Its not good for timing attacks like i said cause the mule gets more units out, perhaps if you INSIST on going all in on one base you could potentially eek out a handful more units by the end, but that just gives the enemy more time to prepare for it and fend you off. "Oh-My-GOD" ... "Is many mutas, Yes?"

Nao Profile Joined October 2008 Poland 164 Posts #20 I used supply drop several times when i got rushed or dropped on in main and one of my supply depots fell, making me unable to produce units to fend off the attack, it was quite effective. This extra wave of units can really decide the game sometimes, especialy since depots are often used for wall-in's and as Dimaga showed recently are quick to fall.



But it only applies in emergency situations. They could be somewheat viable if it costed 25energy One cannot out-kwanro Kwanro. -Trap

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