Ali is a Lindy Hop teacher and dancer, known especially for his interest for dance pedagogy. For him, the key for a great dance is two persons active, listening to each other. In one word : communication.

I actually started dancing through Salsa, in Sweden (where I grew up), in the summer of 2004. When I came to Paris, I couldn’t really relate to the scene there. A colleague suggested a trade : I would teach him a bit of Salsa, and he would teach me Lindy Hop. It was Patrick Schmidt, and we started to dance a lot together. I completely stopped Salsa then. Paris is also where I met my life and dance partner, Katja.

When I moved in Heidelberg, Germany to be with Katja, there was not that much dancing ; so we began to teach. Along the years, we contributed to build the scene, along with many people in Heidelberg.. It has been quite a struggle sometimes ; however, over the years thanks to the passion of many people in Heidelberg, it is today a very nice scene!

Since 2009, teaching dance is my full time job. I’d say it is very hard, not because there is not enough work though. We are teaching internationally and locally. Year after year, we felt the desire to work with a team locally, so that it wouldn’t be mostly us who would be running and teaching there. So we began training local teachers. Financially it is a bit difficult, because more teachers means splitting the bill between more persons.

To develop our team, I could use some of my readings and experience. I always enjoyed reading books and trying new ideas. I read a bunch of books about communication, teaching, dancing (have a look at the suggestions at the end of the article 😉 )… I learned a lot about communication. It is a very important subject for me, because I consider pedagogy and dancing as an expression of communication. That’s even truer in a context of social dancing.

Social dance classes : learning and bonding

When I tried dancing Salsa in Paris, I felt like an outsider, like I was not welcomed. Now I realize : my mistake was to not take classes there. Classes are not only where and when you learn about dance ; it’s also what brings people together, or at least in a much faster way than if you don’t take any.It brings people to be more comfortable around each other, because they meet every week or so. They become accustomed to each other, they know what to expect when one is asking for a dance during a social.

There is a sense of familiarity and safety, even if they don’t know each other well. That’s actually been a studied phenomenon : if you form a group of random people, and then move them somewhere else, They’ll tend to stay with each other, even if they didn’t talk before. A group creates a bond when they’re in a stranger environment. In the context of social dance, it’s important for beginners to feel like they’re in a trustworthy environment, and it can help them to go to parties and else.

That’s why it’s a cool thing for example to go to a bar before a party. It is important, because it creates that bond. That can happen whether teachers are here or not. If the teacher is there, there is kinda more guidance, it feels safer if someone is taking you to the bar. That said, I think at one moment the teacher should be able to step out, and let go so the students can take charge by themselves. It is actually the same in class.

SwingStep , Teacher Summit 2017

Holding hands… and letting go !

In my opinion, during a class, the spotlight shouldn’t be on the teacher, but on the dancers learning the dance. For example, if students are coming to a class just because the teacher is so funny, I don’t see it as a good thing. Humor is great, I’m not saying you should never use it of course, but it shouldn’t be the one reason students are coming to your class.

With that in mind, when I teach, I try to create as much as possible moments when I put on the music, and the students know what to do. That way, it reduces the amount of time I’m in the spotlight ; instead, dance is on the spotlight. That means also not always saying out loud the counts or when to start, like you’re holding your students hands all the time. If you do that all the time, in order to do any movement, they would need to put their attention on you. In that configuration, not only the focus is not on the dance, but it also keeps the students from becoming more independent in their dancing, because they’re not used to recognise counts in the music by themselves.

I really do believe that we don’t need to overexplain things, and/or to explain things all the time. For example, if students see their teacher waiting while the music is on a few counts for a phrase to finish, and counting “5,6,7,8, and…” , they see it, and will try to do it. Eventually, they will practice it. If the teacher always tells you what to do and when to do it, you’re not getting used to doing it for yourself, you can’t be self-sufficient.

To keep myself from that, when I teach I usually do my best to have music on 70 percent of the time during my lessons (during which I can still go and give feedback to them). That also means another challenge : how to guide them efficiently, so that when you put on the music, everybody knows what they’re gonna do. Hence the importance of communication 😉

Forming a mindset vs forming (only) the body

Here is how I see things : to improve your teaching, while planning your lesson, think about how much time you want to spend hand-holding (which would be giving every step to do). If you compare that to parenting, it can be like when some parents give a bit too much support, so children never learn to fail. In a dance class, I avoid that by allotting a set time for the students to work on their own ; to help me do that, I use a timeline. Also, at the end, I let them go on their own. That way, they can experience dancing on their own, they can choose their steps, their timing and other aspects, they can try and they can fail, which is normal, since they’re still learning. You can then give them the message that it’s ok to fail and be confused. I strongly believe into saying that failing is normal, and it’s all part of learning.

As a teacher, I want to form their mindset, and their body is going to form over time. I try to not give them patterns (like always doing something in 8 counts), so that they stay open-minded.

For example, I want to make them experience both a pattern that can change (ex : repeat a triple step, or step) and a “permanent” pattern (ex : swing out). Then I will explore broad categories (ex : triple steps), with both patterns. An example of what I call a category could be time (beat, rythmes) ; to play with it, you can for example work on single vs double beats.

When you know the structure, you can build different things on it, while keeping the structure intact. On a second level, you can also change the structure (ex : 6 counts instead of 8) ; and yet another level could be changing a turning movement into a linear movement. Basically, firstly you have a structure, and then you can do whatever you want. I prefer when people explore anything they can do with the skills they have.

That said, it’s important in my opinion that it stays aesthetically appealing. For that, staying in balance and rhythm helps to keep connection with your partner. As goes the saying, « bad technique is not a style ». Rhythm is something that allows the connection to be built, and it is the responsibility of both dance partners.

Partnered dance is a two-person business 😉

I consider communication as one of the main skills of a social dancer. It is important to pay very much attention to each other, to what they want to do etc. For me, leading is not about making my partner go where I want them to. I suggest, and I see what they’re doing from there. I also adapt according to where they are in their movements, body posture, etc. For example, if I see that my partner is twisting their body, I’m not going to do a straight movement, because that wouldn’t be comfortable, and maybe they want to do something cool, and I don’t want to keep them from doing it.

It’s like in improv theater, there is this rule of « always say yes to an idea ». With that in mind, you can see how leading is not « I move the follow’s body », it actually means expressing an intention, a balance, an idea. That also gives space to the follow as a real partner : they’re not passive.

Some people talk about leading and following that way : the lead is on the driver’s seat, the follow is the passenger (or even the car). If I want to use the car analogy, I’d rather use thus one : one person is driving, the other is looking at the map. In that analogy, the leader is looking at the map, and giving directions, and the follow drives. If they don’t follow directions, there can be a very good reason reason for it (maybe they’ve seen a bike for example, or want to see something the lead didn’t notice).

The important part for me is that it’s not the same person. If you do both, you’re basically forcing the other regardless of if they’re ready, if they want to… When I dance, I’m working with what my partner is giving me, and it’s the same for follows. Consent and respect are fundamentals.

Music : the basis to build your dance on

It doesn’t mean that anything goes though. Music gives you timing and rhythm ; if you do otherwise, you create confusion. If you stay on beat, you have a better chance that your partner understands what you say. Skills are very important to be able to communicate clearly ( but it doesn’t makes you automatically a better dancer). It’s the same in life : the important thing is being able to to share complicated ideas without attacking each other. Look at FB : it is a platform where people can communicate easier, but it doesn’t make people better communicators.

When you’re teaching, considering followers as active, rather than passive, allows you to talk about the responsibility of each rôle. When you’re following, whatever the leader is giving you, it’s your responsibility to make it yours, and to put it on time/on the music ; if it gives you time to add changes, you can do it, but all the time while staying in the beat. Basically, the followers will have the responsibility of keeping rhythm and their sense of time.

It is something you can work on during classes from very early on, like how the follow can influence the dance. For example, they can be in charge of the size of the steps, which impact how you travel (especially during turns). I think that, especially in the beginning, it is often more difficult for leaders because many teachers put the burden of 2 people on the leader. It is a lot to take on ! If you divide the work between the partners, it can really ease the dance. Like, if the leader has troubles keeping time, follows can help them manage that by keeping their own rhythms and stay on the beat.

Even from the beginning, we teach the followers how to express themselves as dancers and not “just following”. Of course, in the beginning it’s through simple moments such as leaders leading a “freeze”, where they both stand still and while in this “mode” any of them can do any moments they want. Later, this might be during a breakaway. When they get more skills, followers can change their steps to other rhythmic-patterns that they chose themselves. In the advanced stages, followers learn to change the timing, direction, adding riffs and better execute the phrasing of a song. One element that is important to us is that followers are not “waiting for a lead”. The rhythm dictates the timing of movements, and either one, the leader and follower, have a chance that within a good rhythmical timing indicate what they have in mind.

Even when you’re a beginner, I think expressing yourself as a follow is possible, but at different levels (like, moments when you can add up moves) The important thing to remember is this : no waiting (for the rhythm – keep the beat). If you wait, you stop dancing.

Also, the importance of all this freedom exists originally in African American dancing. It just makes sense to keep it going.

Thanks a lot to Ali for taking time to do this first interview, and to David to help with the corrections !

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If you’re interested in fishing for more informations, click here 😉 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMpYYtfoDH8&t=15s

Also check the awesome festivals Ali is organizing : Swing Summit, Chase Festival, Cirque du Solo, etc : https://swingstep.com/workshops/en/#international

A few book recommendations from Ali : (enjoy !)

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable , Patrick Lencioni

, Patrick Lencioni The Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict , Arbinger Institute

, Arbinger Institute The Decision Maker: Unlock the Potential of Everyone in Your Organization, One Decision at a Time, Dennis Bakke

Dennis Bakke Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High, Second Edition, Kerry Patterson

Make sure to also check the book he wrote 😉 : https://swingstep.com/constructive-conflicts/