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sabumnim







Joined: 22 May 2017

Posts: 163

Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:18 pm Post subject: The Astrology of Communism



Saturn rules the existing political structures of the day, such as monarchial democracies.



Communism is ruled by Neptune, as communism is an ideology, an idealized political system as developed by Karl Marx.



I have three encyclopedias of astrology that say Neptune rules communism. This includes astrological heavyweights like the late Barbara Hunt Watters.



Therefore, when discussing communist countries, it's a good idea to look at Neptune in the mundane chart and its relationship to the rest of the chart.





S.

_________________

website: Just in case any real mundane astrologers were following this discussion. In the modern system of astrology that I have taught and promoted for well over 40 years, communism is NOT ruled by Saturn.Saturn rules the existing political structures of the day, such as monarchial democracies.Communism is ruled by Neptune, as communism is an ideology, an idealized political system as developed by Karl Marx.I have three encyclopedias of astrology that say Neptune rules communism. This includes astrological heavyweights like the late Barbara Hunt Watters.Therefore, when discussing communist countries, it's a good idea to look at Neptune in the mundane chart and its relationship to the rest of the chart.S._________________website: www.rj-smith.ca

amelia







Joined: 17 Jun 2004

Posts: 403

Location: Wales

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: Regarding rulerships of communism etc.



Socialism is redistributive, thus the modern rulership is Neptune ( I'd guess the traditional rulership is the Moon- but there wasn't much socialism in traditional astrologers' times to confirm this!)



Communism is a specific subset of socialism which involves a very extensive and organised government structure. It must therefore have a Saturnian element.



So Communism is a Neptune-Saturn ruled matter. And since Neptune and Saturn are pretty much inimical it doesn't last.



And since I haven't mentioned the poisonings ( though I have focused on astrology), this post probably won't either



Xx

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james_m







Joined: 05 Dec 2011

Posts: 3707

Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: amelia



thanks for pointing the connection of communism to saturn- neptune...



for anyone familiar with the work of andre barbault, the great french mundane astrologer who predicted the fall of the ussr prior to it happening - he based this off the grand conjunction of saturn-neptune-uranus in 89 and drew a line back to the charts that he had for russia too as i understand it..



if one studies the charts for russia, egypt and a few other countries, they will note the importance of saturn-neptune in the charts as well...



alas - there are no simple connections to be made in astrology, but many will reach out for them like the public reaches out for pop astrology in the absence of anything better..

sabumnim







Joined: 22 May 2017

Posts: 163

Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:04 pm Post subject: amelia wrote: Regarding rulerships of communism etc.



Socialism is redistributive, thus the modern rulership is Neptune ( I'd guess the traditional rulership is the Moon- but there wasn't much socialism in traditional astrologers' times to confirm this!)



Communism is a specific subset of socialism which involves a very extensive and organised government structure. It must therefore have a Saturnian element.



So Communism is a Neptune-Saturn ruled matter. And since Neptune and Saturn are pretty much inimical it doesn't last.



And since I haven't mentioned the poisonings ( though I have focused on astrology), this post probably won't either



Xx





Hello Amelia:



Welcome back !



Thanks for your imput into the discussion about communism.



That said, the subject of communism is perhaps more relevant to this forum than it seems.



While we can all agree to disagree about what planet is what, much of the "new Russia", in my view, is a complex cocktail between the old Communist era, and, the czar period of history, where Russia was once perceived as great. I think that many Russians perceive Putin as a type of Czar, in part, to help Russiya restore its former greatness.



The end result is the Putin government, some say a dictatorship, has almost complete "autarkia" ?



In order to stay in power, so long, Putin has had to appease both the communists in his own country, especially among his Army generals, and the Czarists, the monarchists.



What is also interesting about your post is that, if your hypothesis is correct about Saturn and Neptune tied with communism, my former room mate, Charles, a former President of the Communist Party of England, has in his own natal chart, Saturn and Neptune, rising, and in conjunction, in his 1st house !



It stands to reason, then, that communist supporters must have Saturn and Neptune prominent in their own natal charts.



Former Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe, once a fervant Maoist radical and communist party member, comes to mind, as he has n. Saturn sextile Neptune in his natal chart, which closely sextile and trine his natal Gemini ascendant.



His natal ascendant (11 Gemini and change) almost conjoins exactly, the natal Neptune of the late Mao Zedong !



Go figure. (Duceppe claims that his Maoist leanings were misplaced as a young man, but he was clearly still into the "commie" sauce, well into his 30's ! He even lost his job as a hospital worker over his militant views, according to Wikipedia.



Amelia, are you a communist or have communist leanings. Just asking ! LOL





S.

_________________

website: Hello Amelia:Welcome back !Thanks for your imput into the discussion about communism.That said, the subject of communism is perhaps more relevant to this forum than it seems.While we can all agree to disagree about what planet is what, much of the "new Russia", in my view, is a complex cocktail between the old Communist era, and, the czar period of history, where Russia was once perceived as great. I think that many Russians perceive Putin as a type of Czar, in part, to help Russiya restore its former greatness.The end result is the Putin government, some say a dictatorship, has almost complete "autarkia" ?In order to stay in power, so long, Putin has had to appease both the communists in his own country, especially among his Army generals, and the Czarists, the monarchists.What is also interesting about your post is that, if your hypothesis is correct about Saturn and Neptune tied with communism, my former room mate, Charles, a former President of the Communist Party of England, has in his own natal chart, Saturn and Neptune, rising, and in conjunction, in his 1st house !It stands to reason, then, that communist supporters must have Saturn and Neptune prominent in their own natal charts.Former Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe, once a fervant Maoist radical and communist party member, comes to mind, as he has n. Saturn sextile Neptune in his natal chart, which closely sextile and trine his natal Gemini ascendant.His natal ascendant (11 Gemini and change) almost conjoins exactly, the natal Neptune of the late Mao Zedong !Go figure. (Duceppe claims that his Maoist leanings were misplaced as a young man, but he was clearly still into the "commie" sauce, well into his 30's ! He even lost his job as a hospital worker over his militant views, according to Wikipedia.Amelia, are you a communist or have communist leanings. Just asking ! LOLS._________________website: www.rj-smith.ca

Mark







Joined: 30 Sep 2005

Posts: 5137

Location: Edinburgh, Scotland ModeratorJoined: 30 Sep 2005Posts: 5137Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:12 am Post subject: sabumnim wrote:

Quote: While we can all agree to disagree about what planet is what, much of the "new Russia", in my view, is a complex cocktail between the old Communist era, and, the czar period of history, where Russia was once perceived as great. I think that many Russians perceive Putin as a type of Czar, in part, to help Russiya restore its former greatness.



The end result is the Putin government, some say a dictatorship, has almost complete "autarkia" ?



In order to stay in power, so long, Putin has had to appease both the communists in his own country, especially among his Army generals, and the Czarists, the monarchists.



Please stay on topic. Whatever, modern Russia is now it is not a Communist state. You already strayed wildly off topic in another thread necessitating the creation of this thread. The topic was your idea so please stay with it!



sabumnim wrote:

Quote: Former Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe, once a fervant Maoist radical and communist party member, comes to mind, as he has n. Saturn sextile Neptune in his natal chart, which closely sextile and trine his natal Gemini ascendant.



His natal ascendant (11 Gemini and change) almost conjoins exactly, the natal Neptune of the late Mao Zedong !



Go figure. (Duceppe claims that his Maoist leanings were misplaced as a young man, but he was clearly still into the "commie" sauce, well into his 30's ! He even lost his job as a hospital worker over his militant views, according to Wikipedia.





One modern rather obscure natal example like this hardly seems decisive or even necessarily representative. If we want to understand this philosophy we must examine its originators and leading historical exponents.



sabumnim wrote:

Quote: Amelia, are you a communist or have communist leanings. Just asking ! LOL



Its not good forum etiquette to seek to ask other members their political views. This is an astrological form not a place to put out our political opinions. And I dont think anyone should be put in the uncomfortable position of being asked such questions here. Political analysis on the other hand can be useful to back up charts displayed.



In any case I assumed you already knew Amelia is a financial astrologer. Considering how closely she follows the markets I think you already have your answer.



Mark

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Last edited by Mark on Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:14 pm; edited 7 times in total

ModWasp







Joined: 21 Mar 2014

Posts: 725

Location: England

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: Quote: Communism is ruled by Neptune, as communism is an ideology, an idealized political system



If that statement is true, then the following political theories/movements would all have to be ruled by Neptune, because they are all 'idealised' political ideologies.



Anarchism

Absolutism

Communism

Conservatism

Environmentalism

Fascism

Liberalism

Nationalism

Socialism

Social Democracy

Marxism

Capitalism





Maybe Watters was referring to Barbault's Saturn/Neptune cycle theory when she mention's the USSR's rulership by Neptune? (Charles Harvey, Mundane Astrology, pg 168).



Of course, when one takes into account the mass murder that generally accompanies the majority of these leftwing/socialist movements into power, it is easy to see how it could be ruled by Neptune. On the other hand, repressive and authoritarian one party states that are maintained through fear and military strength and who reject religion of all forms, sounds rather more Saturnian to me.



North Korea, anyone?



Quote: I'd guess the traditional rulership is the Moon- but there wasn't much socialism in traditional astrologers' times to confirm this!



Tumble dryers weren't around in 'traditional times' either - but you can still find them in a horary if you know where to look!

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Mark







Joined: 30 Sep 2005

Posts: 5137

Location: Edinburgh, Scotland ModeratorJoined: 30 Sep 2005Posts: 5137Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:14 pm Post subject: Modswap wrote:

Quote: Maybe Watters was referring to Barbault's Saturn/Neptune cycle theory when she mention's the USSR's rulership by Neptune? (Charles Harvey, Mundane Astrology, pg 168).



Its possible i guess but I didn't think Barbault's ideas gained much traction amongst Anglo-American astrologers until comparatively recently.



From what I have read most of the associations Neptune has acquired in modern astrology seem to be based on the notion that its discovery in 1846 was reflected in world events around approximately the same period of time.



For example, Neptune's modern associations with drugs has been linked to the first surgical use of ether as an anesthetic in 1846.



Neptune's spiritual association is often tied into the growth of the modern spiritualist movement in the late 1840s.



And Neptune's linkage to left-wing political philosophy can be seen reflected in the Revolutions in Europe in 1848 against reactionary regimes across the continent.



Looking specifically at Communism we have the chart for the day the Communist manifesto was published (21/04/1848, London, England) by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.







The noon/untimed chart for the publication of the Communist Manifesto is very interesting with no less than 4 planets in Pisces. For the modern astrologers that might be seen as vindication of a Neptune association with the movement. However, from a traditional perspective Jupiter is the key dispositor planet in the chart. There is also a Moon-Mars trine.



However, another approach to get a feel for the Communist movement would be to examine the charts of key individuals.



Firstly, there is the chart of Karl Marx himself who inspired the revolutionary socialist philosophy that rejected the democratic and non-violent route social change :







With an Aquarian ASC Marx has Saturn his ASC ruler square Uranus. Jupiter his MC ruler is trine his Sun/Moon conjunction. There is marked emphasis on fixed signs with the ASC, Sun, Moon and Venus all in the fixed signs. Venus is on the Pleiades star cluster which Ptolemy stated was of the nature of the Moon and Mars. Mars is marginally out of bounds but almost smack on the solstice degree point of the Sun. Mars forms a close parallel with Mercury.



Secondly, the chart of Vladimir Lenin, the leader of the Bolshevik revolution in the Russian Empire. In his chart there is again a marked focus on fixed signs with the ASC, Sun , Moon and Mercury. With a Scorpio ASC Mars its ruler is squaring the Nodes. The Moon is the sect light in Aquarius. Jupiter is opposing the ASC degree. Saturn is in contra-parallel to Uranus.







Interesting the Saturn in both Marx and Lenin's charts are disposited by Jupiter.



I cant claim to have done enough research on this topic to have any kind of meta-theory yet but I am not really detecting the Neptune connection modern astrology claims for this kind of politics. Then again if you already take Neptune as the ruler of Pisces I suppose the Communist Manifesto chart is grist for the Mill. Equally, one could argue the Uranus-Neptune square in Lenin's chart was descriptive of this kind of left wing revolutionary politics.



The chart for the Communist Manifesto with its heavy Jupiter influence perhaps reflects the idealized vision of a communist society.



In the natal charts both Marx and Lenin have a strong fixed sign emphasis with Aquarius prominent in their charts. Saturn is therefore a significant influence in both charts. While Aquarius can be a humanitarian, idealistic sign those ideals can sometimes lack empathy on the individual level and even drive a brutal authoritarian mind set if other chart factors support it. Two examples that come to mind are the French revolutionary Robespierre and the Romanian Communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu, both of whom oversaw brutal regimes legitimising mass murder.



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Robespierre,_Maximilien



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ceausescu,_Nicolae



Mars is emphasized in both Marx and Lenin's natal charts. Moreover, the mars in the Communist Manifesto chart falls on the Venus (Sun/Moon ruler) in Marx's chart.



Other Marxist-Leninists show a similar strong fixed sign emphasis in their charts.



Leon Trotsky:



Ho Chi Minh:



Fidel Castro:



Che Guevara:



Erich Honecker:



Antonio Gramsci:



Mark

_________________

��As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity��� William Lilly Its possible i guess but I didn't think Barbault's ideas gained much traction amongst Anglo-American astrologers until comparatively recently.From what I have read most of the associations Neptune has acquired in modern astrology seem to be based on the notion that its discovery in 1846 was reflected in world events around approximately the same period of time.For example, Neptune's modern associations with drugs has been linked to the first surgical use of ether as an anesthetic in 1846.Neptune's spiritual association is often tied into the growth of the modern spiritualist movement in the late 1840s.And Neptune's linkage to left-wing political philosophy can be seen reflected in the Revolutions in Europe in 1848 against reactionary regimes across the continent.Looking specifically at Communism we have the chart for the day the Communist manifesto was published (21/04/1848, London, England) by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.The noon/untimed chart for the publication of the Communist Manifesto is very interesting with no less than 4 planets in Pisces. For the modern astrologers that might be seen as vindication of a Neptune association with the movement. However, from a traditional perspective Jupiter is the key dispositor planet in the chart. There is also a Moon-Mars trine.However, another approach to get a feel for the Communist movement would be to examine the charts of key individuals.Firstly, there is the chart of Karl Marx himself who inspired the revolutionary socialist philosophy that rejected the democratic and non-violent route social change :With an Aquarian ASC Marx has Saturn his ASC ruler square Uranus. Jupiter his MC ruler is trine his Sun/Moon conjunction. There is marked emphasis on fixed signs with the ASC, Sun, Moon and Venus all in the fixed signs. Venus is on the Pleiades star cluster which Ptolemy stated was of the nature of the Moon and Mars. Mars is marginally out of bounds but almost smack on the solstice degree point of the Sun. Mars forms a close parallel with Mercury.Secondly, the chart of Vladimir Lenin, the leader of the Bolshevik revolution in the Russian Empire. In his chart there is again a marked focus on fixed signs with the ASC, Sun , Moon and Mercury. With a Scorpio ASC Mars its ruler is squaring the Nodes. The Moon is the sect light in Aquarius. Jupiter is opposing the ASC degree. Saturn is in contra-parallel to Uranus.Interesting the Saturn in both Marx and Lenin's charts are disposited by Jupiter.I cant claim to have done enough research on this topic to have any kind of meta-theory yet but I am not really detecting the Neptune connection modern astrology claims for this kind of politics. Then again if you already take Neptune as the ruler of Pisces I suppose the Communist Manifesto chart is grist for the Mill. Equally, one could argue the Uranus-Neptune square in Lenin's chart was descriptive of this kind of left wing revolutionary politics.The chart for the Communist Manifesto with its heavy Jupiter influence perhaps reflects the idealized vision of a communist society.In the natal charts both Marx and Lenin have a strong fixed sign emphasis with Aquarius prominent in their charts. Saturn is therefore a significant influence in both charts. While Aquarius can be a humanitarian, idealistic sign those ideals can sometimes lack empathy on the individual level and even drive a brutal authoritarian mind set if other chart factors support it. Two examples that come to mind are the French revolutionary Robespierre and the Romanian Communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu, both of whom oversaw brutal regimes legitimising mass murder.Mars is emphasized in both Marx and Lenin's natal charts. Moreover, the mars in the Communist Manifesto chart falls on the Venus (Sun/Moon ruler) in Marx's chart.Other Marxist-Leninists show a similar strong fixed sign emphasis in their charts.Leon Trotsky: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trotsky,_Leon Ho Chi Minh: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ho_Chi_Minh Fidel Castro: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Castro,_Fidel Che Guevara: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Guevara,_Che Erich Honecker: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Honecker,_Erich Antonio Gramsci: https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gramsci,_Antonio Mark_________________��As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity��� William Lilly



Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

ModWasp







Joined: 21 Mar 2014

Posts: 725

Location: England

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:52 am Post subject: Nice post.



Do you have the data for Friedrich Engels?



Here's some food for thought -



Quote: And Neptune's linkage to left-wing political philosophy can be seen reflected in the Revolutions in Europe in 1848 against reactionary regimes across the continent.



Yes, it probably started with the French Revolution of 1789 which would have to be considered the first socialist movement in Europe.



Quote: For example, Neptune's modern associations with drugs has been linked to the first surgical use of ether as an anesthetic in 1846.



Neptune's spiritual association is often tied into the growth of the modern spiritualist movement in the late 1840s.



Neptune's discovery also coincided with the development of the breech loading rifle - the first weapon of mechanised slaughter. I find it funny that moderns always over look that one. And we've seen through history that mass murder and socialism go hand-in-hand. I think the reason for that, is that the utopian state that socialism and communism aspire to can only be realised through the totalitarian state. And that's because the upper classes don't want to give up their lands or money and the middle classes don't want to give up their achievements or aspirations. Hence the authoritarian connection with Saturn.



Fascinating.

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Mark







Joined: 30 Sep 2005

Posts: 5137

Location: Edinburgh, Scotland ModeratorJoined: 30 Sep 2005Posts: 5137Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: Modswap wrote:

Quote: Do you have the data for Friedrich Engels?



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Engels,_Friedrich



I didn't have time for his chart earlier but I do think Marx was very much the senior partner in the project.



Modswap wrote:

I didn't have time for his chart earlier but I do think Marx was very much the senior partner in the project.Modswap wrote: Quote: Neptune's discovery also coincided with the development of the breech loading rifle - the first weapon of mechanised slaughter. I find it funny that moderns always over look that one.





I am no authority on the history of gun technology but from what I have read there were various incremental technological improvements throughout the 19th century.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech-loading_weapon





I am no authority on the history of gun technology but from what I have read there were various incremental technological improvements throughout the 19th century. Quote: The Pauly cartridge was further improved by the French gunsmith Casimir Lefaucheux in 1828, by adding a pinfire primer, but Lefaucheux did not register his patent until 1835: a pinfire cartridge containing powder in a card-board shell. In 1846 another Paris Frenchman, Benjamin Houllier, patented the first fully metallic cartridge containing powder in a metallic shell. Houllier commercialised his weapons in association with the gunsmiths Blanchard or Charles Robert. But the subsequent Houllier and Lefaucheux cartridges, even if they were the first full-metal shells, were still pinfire cartridges, like those used in the LeMat (1856) and Lefaucheux (1858) revolvers, although the LeMat also evolved in a revolver using rimfire cartridges. A year before Houllier's invention, in 1845, the Frenchman Louis-Nicolas Flobert invented, for indoor shooting security, the first rimfire metallic cartridge, constituted by a bullet fit in a percussion cap.Usually derived in the 6 mm and 9 mm calibres, it is since then called the Flobert cartridge or the Bosquette cartridge but it does not contain any powder; the only propellant substance contained in the cartridge is the percussion cap itself. In English-speaking countries the Flobert cartridge corresponds to the .22 BB and .22 CB ammunitions.



The first centrefire cartridge was introduced in 1855 by Pottet, with both Berdan and Boxer priming.



In 1842, the Norwegian Armed Forces adopted the breechloading caplock, the Kammerlader, one of the first instances in which a modern army widely adopted a breechloading rifle as its main infantry firearm.



Still I accept your basic point ( a similar point was made by John Frawley, in his book 'The Real Astrology'') that the modern astrological associations of the outer planets are often highly selective in terms of relevant historical events if not totally subjective. Moreover, as these planets have always been around do they need an invitation to have an astrological effect? Would not their influence be detectable going back long before their discovery?



Modswap wrote:

Quote: Of course, when one takes into account the mass murder that generally accompanies the majority of these leftwing/socialist movements into power, it is easy to see how it could be ruled by Neptune.



Modswap wrote:

Quote: And we've seen through history that mass murder and socialism go hand-in-hand.



I have noticed your posts often link socialism and communism as synonymous. I dont know if this reflects a political agenda on your part or a rather loose use of language. Regardless, of your intent it is simply not the case.



In Western Europe there has long been a quite distinct and separate tradition of democratic socialism committed to a market system and upholding democratic institutions. It supports various degrees of intervention in the free market to bring about redistribution of wealth. Examples are the UK Labour party , The French Socialists, the German, and Scandanavian Social Democratic parties. That is a very far cry from the actions of the Stalinist NKVD or the Maoist Red Guards. The violent tradition you describe is largely Marxist and especially Marxist-Leninist. Marx and later Lenin and the Bolsheviks rejected any democratic government as illegitimate and ''bourgeois''. Democratic socialism is sometimes described as moral or ethical socialism. In Britain some of its roots can be traced back to Christian Socialists like Robert Owen.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen



Mark

_________________

��As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity��� William Lilly I have noticed your posts often link socialism and communism as synonymous. I dont know if this reflects a political agenda on your part or a rather loose use of language. Regardless, of your intent it is simply not the case.In Western Europe there has long been a quite distinct and separate tradition of democratic socialism committed to a market system and upholding democratic institutions. It supports various degrees of intervention in the free market to bring about redistribution of wealth. Examples are the UK Labour party , The French Socialists, the German, and Scandanavian Social Democratic parties. That is a very far cry from the actions of the Stalinist NKVD or the Maoist Red Guards. The violent tradition you describe is largely Marxist and especially Marxist-Leninist. Marx and later Lenin and the Bolsheviks rejected any democratic government as illegitimate and ''bourgeois''. Democratic socialism is sometimes described as moral or ethical socialism. In Britain some of its roots can be traced back to Christian Socialists like Robert Owen.Mark_________________��As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity��� William Lilly

ModWasp







Joined: 21 Mar 2014

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Location: England

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:16 pm Post subject: Mrak,

Quote: Moreover, as these planets have always been around do they need an invitation to have an astrological effect? Would not their influence be detectable going back long before their discovery?



By your term 'astrological effect' - I read that to mean 'astrological cause'. It's my belief that in the ordinary sense of the word 'cause', the planets do not 'cause' anything. When we use that word, what we really mean is what the medievals termed 'efficient cause' - something that makes something else happen. In Aristotelian philosophy, there were 3 types of 'cause': The final, formal and material 'causes'. My view of astrology is that the planets do not 'cause' anything to happen. It's my opinion that the planets do not affect us with gravitation or 'cosmic rays' or other suchlike phenomenon, (however, with the development of the electric universe theory, I may stand to be corrected on that). Rather, the planets are like the hands on the clock of the World-Soul, or the Anima Mundi. The planets and their aspects etc. only describe the quality of that particular moment of time within the Anima Mundi. Astrology resonates with us because we are part of the World-Soul. Of course, anyone who has had sunburn, for example, would have to disagree with that because that is a direct causal affect from a planet! Although having said that, Jupiter omits radio waves that you can tune into an a LW radio and Saturn also omits sound waves https://youtu.be/Sh2-P8hG5-E



By your term 'astrological effect' - I read that to mean 'astrological cause'. It's my belief that in the ordinary sense of the word 'cause', the planets do not 'cause' anything. When we use that word, what we really mean is what the medievals termed 'efficient cause' - something that makes something else happen. In Aristotelian philosophy, there were 3 types of 'cause': The final, formal and material 'causes'. My view of astrology is that the planets do not 'cause' anything to happen. It's my opinion that the planets do not affect us with gravitation or 'cosmic rays' or other suchlike phenomenon, (however, with the development of the electric universe theory, I may stand to be corrected on that). Rather, the planets are like the hands on the clock of the World-Soul, or the Anima Mundi. The planets and their aspects etc. only describe the quality of that particular moment of time within the Anima Mundi. Astrology resonates with us because we are part of the World-Soul. Of course, anyone who has had sunburn, for example, would have to disagree with that because that is a direct causal affect from a planet! Although having said that, Jupiter omits radio waves that you can tune into an a LW radio and Saturn also omits sound waves(Nice, eh?). But before I digress too much on the subject, I basically cannot see how the outers could have any sort of 'effect' before their discovery - because they are not in the collective consciousness of the Anima Mundi at any particular moment in time before they were 'found'. Jung said - "I am - and always was - of the opinion that the political has movements of our time are psychic epidemics, in other words, mass psychosis...nations have their own peculiar psychology, and in the same way they also have their own particular kind of psychopathology". I cannot agree that Uranus had any sort of influence on the peasants revolt of1381, for example. Instead, rebellion would have been symbolised by Mars, in the mind of the 1381 astrologer., because they knew about Mars at that time and not about Uranus. Quote: I have noticed your posts often link socialism and communism as synonymous. I dont know if this reflects a political agenda on your part or a rather loose use of language. Regardless, of your intent it is simply not the case



Quote: In Western Europe there has long been a quite distinct and separate tradition of democratic socialism committed to a market system and upholding democratic institutions.





I understand that communism and socialism are different theories. But they are interlinked - Communism is an inherently evil political philosophy - 130million estimated deaths in 70 years of the 20th century alone. I would like to suggest reading 'The Gulag Archipelago' by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as proof of this evil ideology at work. The Soviets even had the symbol of Saturn as their flag.



As for socialism in todays world - it's gone so far left, it's actually the new right. But the biggest problem that I have with socialism is the desire of socialists to use the power of the state to bring security to the victims of what is perceived to be 'social disintegration'. Modern day soscialm isn't in place to create a new type of economy - it's there to produce a new kind of society by using taxes to introduce 'social justice' - .i.e. 'indenity politics' - the categorisation of social groups - and to make the state, rather than the individual or family, the principle institution to which people turn to. It's about big government and less personal responsibly.It's all about social engineering. Surely as astrologer, you can see that this is not the best way forward for either the collective or the individual? The left generally wants to shut down any argument that it disagrees with and defines itself as oppositional, yet it's own philosophy is rather vague (Neptune?) on such matters (that it opposes). Socialism is self-righteous group-think, and it's weakness is it cannot define how they are going to achieve the utopian state that it strives for. As a result of this, leftist governments become very often become totalitarian - by having to shut down freedom of speech, to crush dissent, etc.. because they cannot define their own position. So from that point of view - Neptune/Saturn do seem to be the relevant rulers here after all.



Quote: It supports various degrees of intervention in the free market to bring about redistribution of wealth.

The great champion of the 'redistribution of wealth is Russel Brand, a committed socialist. He flies around the world in a private jet.



MW

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Fleur







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Posts: 853

Joined: 05 Feb 2014Posts: 853

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: Neptune seems to represent the destruction of personal boundaries.



But they also have Saturn imposing their own order.

WooWoo







Joined: 05 Apr 2013

Posts: 1817



Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:40 pm Post subject: I think this discussion is very relevant as the Tory Right love to demonise Jeremy Corbyn as the next Dictator.



I was lucky to live in Eastern Europe, in a former Soviet Socialist State, in the '90s. I experienced the Socialismus mentalities and methods at first hand.



Many of them talked of the beautiful times they have in the '60s and '70s.



And as friends they were very reliable. They were also very well trained at what they did.



It is going to be interesting to see what comes when The Node's Economic Cycle begins to turn down at the end of this year.



Jupiter will enter Sagittarius too. Um ? I think Neptune is perhaps Socialism with the healthy collective mentality, but Communism I think tends to be cruel master. Saturn ?



H

sabumnim







Joined: 22 May 2017

Posts: 163

Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:04 am Post subject:



I was merely asking her a fair question, relevant in every aspect, about her interest in communism. Why get so defensive about that.



Regarding this thread discussion about Neptune and communism, since this forum is widely known as a traditional astrology forum, that tends to attack modern astrology at every opportunity, one cannot expect that any of the trans-Saturnian planets will be treated with any degree of objectivity and or fairness, in relation to mundane events, since many of you have been brainwashed by William Lily (and other traditional astrologers) and you have clearly made up your minds.



As an example, Mark mentions the launch chart for the publishing of the communist manifesto book, then, he opines this:



"The noon/untimed chart for the publication of the Communist Manifesto is very interesting with no less than 4 planets in Pisces. For the modern astrologers that might be seen as vindication of a Neptune association with the movement. However, from a traditional perspective Jupiter is the key dispositor planet in the chart. There is also a Moon-Mars trine."



My position on this matter is that, in mundane matters, Pisces must be co-ruled by both Neptune and Jupiter. In other words, Pisces has two gears.



If you want to really understand Pisces, go live with those people (as I have) and then, see what happens. My whole family, (mother, father, brother, wife, daughter, current room mate), they all have something important in Pisces.



Typically, one gear for them is Jupiter: an exaggerated sense of self-entitlement. "OH, THE WORLD OWES ME, LOTS." (no, it does not !)



The other gear (Neptune) is martyrdom: "OH, POOR ME. WHY AM i SUCH A FAILURE (or victim)!"



That pretty much describes the plight of not only every Sun in Pisces, but also, most communists, as well. Every one of them that I have met and I have worked with some of Canada's largest unions and that where most of the commies tend to hang out or retire ?



I once lived with a communist room mate for nearly one year. You can learn a lot from a communist, just by living with them. How many of you have lived with a communist.



Mark, while we appreciate your anecdotal evidence in a long winded post, (and based on your own opinions, only), this falls very short of what is done in actual research data situations.



Therefore, to do a proper, traditional astrological investigation of the planet Neptune and communism, we would like to see a case study involving much more than 10 natal charts.



Maybe a few hundred natal charts, or a few thousand of them. There are literally thousands of communist sympathizers, all over the world, so they would not be too hard to find.



Something along the lines of the Michel and Francoise Gauquelin research would be ideal, of course.



These types of research projects would/should take months to complete. Otherwise, an anecdotal research study of just a few charts cannot be taken that seriously.



Regarding the straying from the topic, business, your favorite son, Modwasp, talks about guns, socialism and mass murder, the types of idealist dogma, out there, this and that, (all have nothing to do with communism, yet no admonishment from you, at all, no deletion of his posts !).



So, a rule for me and another for Mod-wasp ? How ridiculous.



Although Neptune was said to be discovered in the year 1846, it is a much misunderstood and maligned planet. When one doesn't fully understand something, one is more likely to attack it ?



Neptune has been demonized by many, including the traditional crowd, as the planet of malfeasance, namely deceit, corruption, scandal, collusion, etc.



Since Neptune is a higher octave of Venus, as such, it is actual the planet of love and forgiveness. foremost.



Yet, so much hate and derision is found on this thread discussion.



How ironic !



Finally, the late Barbara Watters made the case (in her book, Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events) about Neptune and its relationship with the theory of entropy, as postulated by Sir Isaac Newton's second law of thermodynamics, which states: (source Wikipedia)



" The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state (equilibrium), or is undergoing a reversible process."



Miss Watters suggested in her book (an excellent read, btw) that entropy "is like taking a pinch of ink and squirting it into a gallon of water. In a few seconds, the ink will dissolve into the water and while you cannot see it, the ink is still there. It has not disappeared. Thus, Neptune rules entropy."



Therefore, the apparent dissolution of communism back in 1991 is actually a political mirage, a Neptunian trick, I suggest.



That's because communism never really disappeared from Russia, but, it got swallowed up by a greater entity.



Incidentally, most of today's capitalism and big business works that way, as well, via mergers and acquisitions. Eventually, only a handful of sharks (Pluto) will swim the waters, as every small fish (Neptune) will either be gobbled up, whole, or eaten by the largest sharks ?



That's food for thought, I'd say.









S.

_________________

website: I am not so familiar (or all knowing) about the poster called Amelia, a person who rarely comments on the mundane section, by the way. Is it fair, then, to assume, blindly, that I know everything about Amelia, or about anyone ?I was merely asking her a fair question, relevant in every aspect, about her interest in communism. Why get so defensive about that.Regarding this thread discussion about Neptune and communism, since this forum is widely known as a traditional astrology forum, that tends to attack modern astrology at every opportunity, one cannot expect that any of the trans-Saturnian planets will be treated with any degree of objectivity and or fairness, in relation to mundane events, since many of you have been brainwashed by William Lily (and other traditional astrologers) and you have clearly made up your minds.As an example, Mark mentions the launch chart for the publishing of the communist manifesto book, then, he opines this:"The noon/untimed chart for the publication of the Communist Manifesto is very interesting with no less than 4 planets in Pisces. For the modern astrologers that might be seen as vindication of a Neptune association with the movement. However, from a traditional perspective Jupiter is the key dispositor planet in the chart. There is also a Moon-Mars trine."My position on this matter is that, in mundane matters, Pisces must be co-ruled by both Neptune and Jupiter. In other words, Pisces has two gears.If you want to really understand Pisces, go live with those people (as I have) and then, see what happens. My whole family, (mother, father, brother, wife, daughter, current room mate), they all have something important in Pisces.Typically, one gear for them is Jupiter: an exaggerated sense of self-entitlement. "OH, THE WORLD OWES ME, LOTS." (no, it does not !)The other gear (Neptune) is martyrdom: "OH, POOR ME. WHY AM i SUCH A FAILURE (or victim)!"That pretty much describes the plight of not only every Sun in Pisces, but also, most communists, as well. Every one of them that I have met and I have worked with some of Canada's largest unions and that where most of the commies tend to hang out or retire ?I once lived with a communist room mate for nearly one year. You can learn a lot from a communist, just by living with them. How many of you have lived with a communist.Mark, while we appreciate your anecdotal evidence in a long winded post, (and based on your own opinions, only), this falls very short of what is done in actual research data situations.Therefore, to do a proper, traditional astrological investigation of the planet Neptune and communism, we would like to see a case study involving much more than 10 natal charts.Maybe a few hundred natal charts, or a few thousand of them. There are literally thousands of communist sympathizers, all over the world, so they would not be too hard to find.Something along the lines of the Michel and Francoise Gauquelin research would be ideal, of course.These types of research projects would/should take months to complete. Otherwise, an anecdotal research study of just a few charts cannot be taken that seriously.Regarding the straying from the topic, business, your favorite son, Modwasp, talks about guns, socialism and mass murder, the types of idealist dogma, out there, this and that, (all have nothing to do with communism, yet no admonishment from you, at all, no deletion of his posts !).So, a rule for me and another for Mod-wasp ? How ridiculous.Although Neptune was said to be discovered in the year 1846, it is a much misunderstood and maligned planet. When one doesn't fully understand something, one is more likely to attack it ?Neptune has been demonized by many, including the traditional crowd, as the planet of malfeasance, namely deceit, corruption, scandal, collusion, etc.Since Neptune is a higher octave of Venus, as such, it is actual the planet of love and forgiveness. foremost.Yet, so much hate and derision is found on this thread discussion.How ironic !Finally, the late Barbara Watters made the case (in her book, Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events) about Neptune and its relationship with the theory of entropy, as postulated by Sir Isaac Newton's second law of thermodynamics, which states: (source Wikipedia)" The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The total entropy can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state (equilibrium), or is undergoing a reversible process."Miss Watters suggested in her book (an excellent read, btw) that entropy "is like taking a pinch of ink and squirting it into a gallon of water. In a few seconds, the ink will dissolve into the water and while you cannot see it, the ink is still there. It has not disappeared. Thus, Neptune rules entropy."Therefore, the apparent dissolution of communism back in 1991 is actually a political mirage, a Neptunian trick, I suggest.That's because communism never really disappeared from Russia, but, it got swallowed up by a greater entity.Incidentally, most of today's capitalism and big business works that way, as well, via mergers and acquisitions. Eventually, only a handful of sharks (Pluto) will swim the waters, as every small fish (Neptune) will either be gobbled up, whole, or eaten by the largest sharks ?That's food for thought, I'd say.S._________________website: www.rj-smith.ca

ModWasp







Joined: 21 Mar 2014

Posts: 725

Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: Quote: So, a rule for me and another for Mod-wasp ? How ridiculous.



If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: Please leave me out of your crazy world.



Many thanks.



MW x

_________________

Verum e

Mark







Joined: 30 Sep 2005

Posts: 5137

Location: Edinburgh, Scotland ModeratorJoined: 30 Sep 2005Posts: 5137Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: Modswap wrote:



Quote: If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: Please leave me out of your crazy world.



Many thanks.



MW x



I have already notified members I do not want to see any further personalised comments like this on the forum.



Please bring any further complaints about other members to me by PM not the open forum.



Thanks



Mark

_________________

��As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity��� William Lilly