Arsenal brand is fading - Arsene Wenger needs to prove he is still a winner

Wenger needs to beat Hull to end trophy a nine-year trophy drought



Abramovich and Mansour have changed the game, Arsenal are suffering



Defeat at Wembley doesn't bear thinking about, says Martin Keown



Arsenal legend Lehmann: Not winning something has to come to an end

Arsenal could finally end their nine-year wait for a trophy in Saturday’s FA Cup final. Gunners legends Martin Keown and Jens Lehmann joined Jamie Redknapp to talk through the big match and what it means for Arsene Wenger. Andrew Magee listened in...

KEOWN: Jens, you were part of the last Arsenal team that won a trophy in 2005. Did you ever think it would be this long before they won one again?

LEHMANN: Of course not. We could have won the Champions League a year later but since then the squad has changed. All of a sudden they had opportunities with young players and some of the older players were allowed to leave.



REDKNAPP: With managers not even lasting six months these days, are you surprised Arsenal have stayed with Wenger?



Hero: Jens Lehmann saved Paul Scholes' penalty to win Arsenal the trophy in Cardiff in 2005

Three wise men: Jens Lehmann (left), Jamie Redknapp and Martin Keown discuss Arsenal's FA Cup final chances and Arsene Wenger's future at the Emirates Stadium

Triumph: Wenger and Lehmann lift the FA Cup nine years ago, the last time the Gunners picked up silverware

Final failure: Juliano Belletti squeezes the ball past Manuel Almunia to equalise for Barcelona in the 2006 Champions League final - Barca went on to win 2-1

LEHMANN: I wish they would give other managers as much time, but Arsene is the club. He determines the philosophy and, financially, they are probably the most successful club, with the new stadium and always participating in the Champions League. But not winning something has to come to an end on Saturday.



KEOWN: The manager has given up his life for Arsenal. There isn’t a manager who works harder and he knows there’s a great opportunity there. I would love him to win another trophy and for the current group to feel what we felt, the elation of winning and going on the bus parade. Once you get that one out of the way then hopefully it’s the start of more to come.

REDKNAPP: When you looked around that dressing room in 2005, you would never have believed somebody if they had said Arsenal would not win a trophy for another nine years. The manager was in place, they had good young players — why has that happened?

LEHMANN: Recruitment was becoming very difficult because of competition from other clubs. All of a sudden the likes of Chelsea came in, then Man City and it wasn’t a fair competition any more. Arsenal were struggling because they had to pay off their new stadium and the money wasn’t there.



Competition: Roman Abramovich (left) at Chelsea and Sheikh Mansour (right) at City have changed the game



Beginning: Keown says getting used to celebrating a trophy starts the process of building success

Talking points: Lehmann, Redknapp and Keown spoke to Sportsmail's Andrew Magee at Bubbledog restaurant in London, where they discussed Saturday's showpiece occasion at Wembley

KEOWN: After Roman Abramovich arrived and Jose Mourinho took over, that was when Chelsea first started to wrestle away Arsenal’s dominance.

LEHMANN: But we still could have won the league in 2008. We were top of the table and then had that game at Birmingham when Eduardo broke his leg. Even when I came back in 2011, we were competing at the top of the table with Man Utd and could have won then, but we didn’t. There were chances but, comparing the squad to the other more expensive squads, probably it was not strong enough in terms of quality.



REDKNAPP: If you are an Arsenal fan and at the start of the season you are offered top four and the FA Cup, you would take that all day. Jose Mourinho has come in this year with everybody expecting him to win at least one trophy and he hasn’t. That’s why Saturday is so important and why they have to win.

KEOWN: It would be ironic if, after Mourinho called Wenger a specialist in failure, Arsenal went on to win a trophy when Jose hasn’t. But everywhere you go, the expectation is so high for Arsenal and Wenger knows that. He’s like somebody at the arcade who has been putting money into the machine all day because he knows it’s going to pay out eventually.



REDKNAPP: But he might run out of coins soon…

Breaking point: Arsenal were on course for the title in 2008 before Eduardo's injury halted their momentum

Specialist in failure: Mourinho has criticised Wenger this season, but Arsenal could have the last laugh

LEHMANN: For ex-players like us, wherever you go people recognise you as an Arsenal player. Now it’s fading a little bit because the brand is not as strong as it was. And that’s because they haven’t won for so long. Chelsea and Man City are coming up internationally, and in Asia, South America, they speak about those teams. A win would be great for us because it’s always better to be recognised as having played for such a big club than for a club that is not that big any more. That’s why they have to start winning. It’s a must.

KEOWN: Wenger has to prove to himself as much as anybody else that he’s still a winner — that he’s still got the ingredients to be successful — because there’s been something missing up until now. He hasn’t quite got the right mix.



REDKNAPP: This year there have been so many positives but you look at the games against Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool and there has to be something missing, especially when you get beaten by five or six goals away from home.

KEOWN: It’s not an excuse but they were all early kick-offs. The team did not switch on early enough and you have to ask why they weren’t ready for the challenge. Why were they half asleep? Because it looked like it in their performance.

LEHMANN: If you concede a goal then you have to have a plan. But they conceded the second one immediately afterwards. It’s difficult to stick to a plan when you are 2-0 down so quickly.

Thrashed: Raheem Sterling scored Liverpool's fifth goal as they hammered Arsenal in February

Identity crisis: The Gunners were already two goals down when Kieran Gibbs was sent off against Chelsea

Pattern: Manchester City also scored early goals in their 6-3 win against Arsenal before Christmas

REDKNAPP: You don’t always like to see it, but Mourinho is able to shut up shop and he has the ability to go somewhere and be difficult to beat. I look at Arsenal and I don’t see a team that’s difficult to beat. Arsenal teams of the past would think: ‘You want to play today, OK we’ll play,’ or ‘You want to have a war, OK we’ll have a war.’

LEHMANN: It’s down to physical changes. I remember people kept telling me how physically strong our team was and that the technical ability was on top of the physicality. But right now it’s difficult to find such physically strong players. Yaya Toure is a good example but he is a rarity.



REDKNAPP: I remember playing against the Invincibles (2003-04) and thinking in the tunnel: ‘How are we going to stop this lot today?’ From the keeper to the striker, everything was just perfect. You look now and it’s not the same.

KEOWN: A lot of our games were won in the tunnel. I remember opposition players asking for Dennis Bergkamp’s shirt before the game and you know then that they’re beaten. I remember looking around that dressing room and thinking: ‘What a group.’ I thought the gaffer would just keep adding people to it, but it’s not been that simple. When you don’t win trophies, you lose players.



REDKNAPP: Samir Nasri, Robin van Persie, Cesc Fabregas…

Invincibles: The genius of the Arsenal team that went unbeaten in 2003/04 intimidated the opposition

Star: Opponents used to ask for Bergkamp's shirt before the game even started

Moving on: Van Persie (left) and Fabregas (far right) have both picked up major trophies since leaving



LEHMANN: The big difference was when Cesc Fabregas came in — he played two or three touches. With Vieira and the others they only had one or two touches. But when Cesc came in, Freddie Ljungberg barely scored again because his runs were timed on one or two-touch football. Cesc was a fantastic player but it changed our game and our rhythm. The fewer touches you need the better.

KEOWN: I would take the ball out and all I would do is give it to Vieira. He said all he would do was give it to Dennis, who would then find Thierry Henry. You’d give it to the best player in front of you. It’s simple but it was so hard to stop.

REDKNAPP: As an outsider I love watching Arsenal play, especially the football they have produced over the past few years.

KEOWN: Playing attacking football is great, but you have to know how to defend. You have to respect both sides of the game. Manchester City have been the most balanced team in the Premier League this year — you can’t just attack. How many times did you see Thierry Henry put his foot on the ball by the corner flag? That team played good football but was still prepared to do what was necessary. You can’t go into a boxing match only throwing punches or you’re going to get knocked out yourself. Wenger has pointed to the brand of football as a marker of success but to make the story complete he needs to win things.



Slowing it down: Cesc Fabregas' emergence brought a new style of football for Arsenal

Top class: Thierry Henry was the driving force behind the Arsenal team that was so successful

REDKNAPP: You two were ultimate winners, but I find it frustrating that fans are almost brainwashed into being told that fourth is good enough. When the players look back on their career, they don’t say: ‘Oh, remember when we got in the Champions League?’

LEHMANN: As a manager you have to protect your players but you also want to have a group which acknowledges that fourth place is not good enough. It’s the minimum. But as a manager you have to cover and protect your players and you have to tell the public it was a successful season, even if he doesn’t think so. I think that’s the philosophy of most managers.

KEOWN: It’s not enough to just win a trophy, either. It’s about competing in the transfer window now. The Arsenal fans pay a lot of money and hear a lot about the financial figures, but they want to see players, not profit in the bank. With Mesut Ozil, that lifted the lid. They kept asking why world-class players kept leaving Arsenal but finally one arrived. The fans want Wenger to be the manager, they just want him to do more of the things that they want, which means winning trophies and buying players.

Quality: The arrival of Ozil from Real Madrid has shown that Arsenal are no longer a selling club

Fooling themselves? Arsenal went on a lap of honour at the end of this season, despite only finishing fourth

REDKNAPP: How important is confidence going into the final? You look at Hull’s form, which has not been great the past few weeks, and Arsenal, who have improved, especially with the return of Aaron Ramsey.



KEOWN: These are all top international players playing for Arsenal and the majority will be going off to the World Cup, so there is every reason to feel confident. But Aaron Ramsey will be the key. And because he’s British I feel he will want to stay here and be an Arsenal player for years. He’s one you would love to keep at the club.

REDKNAPP: You say that but the past would suggest not. Surely that has to change? You can’t have success if you keep selling your best players.



KEOWN: Robin van Persie effectively won the league for Man Utd by himself and maybe Arsenal would have won it with him there. All of these things have affected Wenger but I still think he will decide when he leaves that club. No one else will tell him to go.

LEHMANN: He is the club.

A new hope: Aaron Ramsey has been brilliant when fit this season, and can lead Arsenal to glory

Decision time: Wenger will be the one who chooses whether he stays at the end of the season

REDKNAPP: People will look at what’s happened at Manchester United — with them changing the manager — and wonder if it will eventually be the same at Arsenal. Arsenal play great football, they fill the stadium up but the fans will ask why, when they pay the most money, they are still not winning trophies. That’s why I think this is such a pivotal game for Arsene Wenger.

KEOWN: I think they will win, but you’ve always got the romance of the cup and the possibility of a giant-killing. I went to the semi-final and when they were losing to Wigan it felt like the end of an era. That performance made me nervous. Wigan pressed Arsenal really high and Arsenal didn’t move the ball with the confidence I expected.



REDKNAPP: The good things is they’re kicking off in the evening so they don’t have to worry about the curse of those early starts! But don’t forget the last time they got to a cup final. Everybody thought they’d beat Birmingham in the Carling Cup in 2011…

KEOWN: They can’t let that happen again. The professional in me says they will win because they are a side full of internationals, but as a fan sitting there it will be nerve-racking.

Catastrophe: Birmingham City's League Cup win in 2011 was a major blow for Arsene Wenger

Tough times: When Arsenal fell behind to Wigan it looked like their season was falling apart.

LEHMANN: I’m a fan too but I’m confident they will win. But if they don’t…

KEOWN: It doesn’t bear thinking about.

REDKNAPP: Of course, if there is a shock there will be a lot of criticism and a lot of questions asked of Wenger — how can he not motivate his side to beat Hull City or Birmingham City in a cup final? But I think he’d have to sack himself.

LEHMANN: For what he has done for Arsenal he deserves that, to make the decision himself. He is the club and he made the club what it is right now.



Survival: Lukas Fabianski's saves in the FA Cup semi-final were enough to see the Gunners return to Wembley

Waving goodbye? Lehmann thinks that the Arsenal boss might decide to move on, even if Arsenal win

KEOWN: He knows the rules, though. The rules for us were, if you didn’t perform, you did not play. He knows that, so that’s why he’s a fair man. I think that’s why he has delayed signing a new contract because he feels if he is not performing, he should not be treated any differently. He sets the rules.

LEHMANN: And now he has to apply them to himself. Even though he’s 64, I think he will still be at the club for some years to come but, of course, there is the possibility that if he wins the FA Cup he could decide it’s finally time to do something else with his life!



