Postby 1731298478 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:26 am

gwern wrote: Presumably Lili or someone should have no trouble confirming this. Presumably Lili or someone should have no trouble confirming this.

SPOILER: Show 九五年九月。オウム・杉並道場。上祐史浩説法論。

September, 1995. The Aum training facility at Suginami. A sermon being deivered by Fumihiro Joyu.



「私はいま、アニメを研究しています。オウムは、いわば『ニュータイプ』なんです。アニメを見ている子供たちは、無意識のうちに自分の未来の姿を選択し、予知しているんですよ。将来、多くの人々が超能力を持つことになるでしょう。ハルマゲドンは、来ます。」

"At this moment I am researching anime. [The members of] Aum are the so-called 'Newtypes.' The children who watch anime are unconsciously choosing and envisioning the form of their own future. In the future, many people will come to possess psychic powers. Armageddon is coming."



上祐史浩はこう言った。

This is what Fumihiro Joyu said.



そして九五年一〇月四日、アニメ「新世紀エヴァンゲリオン」は始まった。それはハルマゲドンの物語だった。

On October 4, 1995, the anime "Neon Genesis Evangelion" began airing. It was a story of Armageddon.



以下のインタユーを読んでもらえばよくわかるのが。経過は次の通りです。まず茨城県日立市で一歳児の育児をしながら延々とアニメのビデオ・チェックをやっていた僕（大泉）のかみさんが『エヴァ』にはまり、次に東京までフィルムブックを買いにやらされた僕がはまり（この時、小社刊の雑誌『クイック・ジャパン』編集長赤田君に「フィルムブックを買うようになったらもうオシマイですよ」と言われる）、九六年三月二七日放映終了、評判を知ってビデオで全編を見た竹熊さんがはまった。

You will know [the full details] once you read the following interview, but this [is a brief account] of how things came to pass. First of all, my (Oizumi's) wife, who was raising our one-year-old in Hitachi, Ibaraki prefecture, and endlessly checking anime videos [to see if they were suitable for a young child], became obsessed with Eva. Next, she made me get the [Eva] filmbook for her in Tokyo, and I became obsessed with Eva. (At this time Akata-kun - the editor of the magazine Quick Japan, put out by the publisher of this book - told me that if you're buying the filmbook, you're done for.) After the broadcast finished on March 27, 1996, Kentaro Takekuma-san, hearing of the series' reputation, watched the entire thing on video, and became obsessed with it.



それからの竹熊さんは凄かった。『エヴァ』の特集をやるべきだと言って赤田君を口説きに口説き（僕もやったが）ほぼ丸一日かけて、竹熊家において『エヴァ』を作った「ガイナックス」そして庵野秀明がどのような歴史をたどってきたか、大学生時代のアニメから『エヴァ』に至るまでの大上映会をやり、アニメ業界にうとい僕にその歴史を認識させ、赤田君に『エヴァ』特集を納得させた。

Takekuma-san was incredible after that. He spent almost a whole day (I was there too, but...) persuading Akata-kun of the necessity of doing a special feature on Eva [for Quick Japan]. [Then,] at the Takekuma-residence, he held a great screening party that recounted the history of the makers of Eva, Gainax and Hideaki Anno, beginning with their University-era anime works, and finishing with Eva [itself]. He opened my eyes - as someone ignorant of the anime industry - to the history [of Anno and Gainax], and he got Akata-kun to agree to the special issue on Eva.



同時に竹熊さんは、プライヴェートで庵野氏と接触、このインタビューを受けてもらうための下地を作ってくれた。

At the same time Takekuma-san privately contacted Mr. Anno, and laid the groundwork for him to accept the interview.



僕はノンフィクションの業界にいて、九五年は丸一年をほぼオウム取材（特に信者インタービューと体験修行）で潰しつつ、『クイック・ジャパン』「消えたマンガ家」を連載するという、アニメ業界とは縁もゆかりもない人間がった。一方庵野氏は、完全にアニメ業界で生きてきた人だった。『エヴァ』にはまったという以外、まったく接点のない二人の間に立って、竹熊さんは実に見事に翻訳者の役割を果たしてくれ、インタビュアーとしても無類の能力を発揮してくらた。記して感謝の意を表したい。そして何より、このようなインタビューを受け、腹の底までさらけ出だしてくれた庵野秀明氏に、心より厚く御礼申し上げたい。

[A member of] the non-fiction industry, I spent almost all of 1995 gathering information on Aum (especially through interviews and direct experience of their spiritual training), while serializing "The Disappearance of the Mangaka" in Quick Japan; I was a complete stranger to the anime industry. On the other hand, Mr. Anno was someone who had lived his whole life in the anime industry. With the two of us having no point of contact at all aside from being absorbed in Eva, Takekuma-san splendidly served as a translator between the two of us, and exhibited a matchless capability as an interviewer as well. I want to express my gratitude to him in writing. More than anything, I want to express my sincere gratitude to Mr. Hideaki Anno for accepting this interview and opening himself up to us.

SPOILER: Show 大泉 僕自身は去年の一月くらいから、オウムの取材をずっとやっていまして、彼らがどんな集団だかわからなかったので、最終的には入会して、どういう人たちが麻原彰晃の磁力に引っぱられてきたのかを、ずっと取材して本にしてきたんです。去年『エヴァンゲリオン』が始まって見た時に、『エヴァンゲリオン・テス・バシレイアス』っていうまったく同じものがオウムのロシアのラジオ番組にあったもんですから、こんな番組が始めちゃっていいのかってびっくりしたことがあるんですよ。

Oizumi: I myself have been engaged in gathering information on Aum since around January of last year. Since I had didn't know what kind of organization they were, in the end I joined them, and, collecting information the whole time on what kind of people were attracted by the pull of Shoko Asahara, put [my findings] into a book. When I first saw Evangelion last year, I was shocked, wondering if a show like this should be airing, since [the title] contained the same phrase as Aum's radio program [broadcast] from Russia, "Evangelion Tes Basileias."



庵野 同時多発でしたね。全然、僕は知らなかったです。

Anno: A simultaneous occurrence. I didn't know anything at all [about the radio program].



大泉 それでとても強烈な印象があって、それから、もう一つ、オープニングにはカバラのデザインの絵があって、麻原もいろんな宗教に飛び込んだ人ですけれど、カバラには入ってなかったんで（笑）。それでちょっと安心しました。

Oizumi: So that made a strong impression on me. After that there was another thing, the images of a Kabbalistic design in the opening sequence. Asahara had also plunged into a variety of different religions, but he had not gone into Kabbalah (laughing). I relaxed a little because of that.



竹熊 でも後期オウムは、キリスト教までパクってたから、けっこう、けっこう、危なかったですよね。

Takekuma: But it was [still] dangerous enough, since in its later period Aum had gone so far as to steal [elements from] Christianity.



大泉 カバラはユダヤ教密教だから、その辺がキリキリの線でした。『エヴァンゲリオン』を初めて見た時、カバラの思想がベースになるんだなって思いました。

Oizumi: Kabbalah is an esoteric form of Judaism, so it was marginal [to Aum's use of Christianity]. When I first watched Evangelion, I thought that it was based upon Kabbalistic thought.



庵野 大いなる勘違いですけれどね(笑）。

Anno: That was quite a misconception (laughing).

SPOILER: Show 竹熊 『エヴァ』の制作後半はスケジュール的にも凄まじかったと聞いてますけど……

Takekuma: I heard that the second half of the production of Eva was dreadful in terms of the scheduling...



庵野 そうですね。よくもったと思いました。外にいる人にはわからないと思いますけど、あそこまでもったこと自体が奇跡なんですよ。あそこのスケジューリングをこれだけ少数の人間でできたってことね。少数精鋭だからできたってこともありますけれど。これだけの人数で、あれだけのものを、こんな短時間で、あんなふうによくできた。それはもうスタッフの熱意とか、メンタルの部分に頼った点が大きかった。でも、こういうことは外からでは見えてこないことですよね。大多数は結果でしか判断してくれませんから。僕から見れば、あの結果で充分、やれることはやったんです。やっぱり、ああいうことをやるには血流さない奴はダメなってことですね。血を流さない人間は深いところまでわかってくれない。

Anno: That's true. We held out well, I think. I don't think that people outside [of the production] realize this, but it was a miracle that we held out as long as we did. To finish that schedule with so few people. Although [you could] also [say] we did it because we were an elite few. To do something like that, with so few people, in such a short amount of time - in this sense, we did very well. There were many points where I depended upon the passion or the mentality of the staff. But these are things that people outside [of the production] are unable to see. The great majority of people judge only the final result. From my perspective, we did everything that we were able to do. Of course, doing something like this is impossible for someone who won't shed their own blood. People who don't shed their own blood won't be able to understand it at a deep level.



竹熊 先程、こういう仕事はサービス業だっておっしゃてましたけれど、そのあとで、そのサービスを裏切るようなこと（ストーリーの放棄）をしてしまったってことに、ご自分の中では矛盾を感じませんでしたか？

Takekuma: A little while ago you described this sort of work as a service industry, but you carried out something like a betrayal of this [principle of] service (in abandoning the story); didn't you feel that to be a self-contradiction?



庵野 いや、あれが僕のサービスなんです。(笑）

Anno: No, that was my service (laughing).



竹熊 やっぱりね(笑）。

Takekuma: Of course (laughing).



庵野 サービスに見えないけれど、サービスなんです。見えないサービス。怒るんだっら本気で怒らせようっていうのがありました。「なんだこんな作画は！」って怒り方よりは、目の前のちゃぶ台をひっくりかえすような感情に持っていた方がなんかスッキリするだろうし。

Anno: It may not have looked like service, but it was service. It was service that couldn't be recognized [as such]. One aspect of it was, if [the audience was] going to be angry, then I was really going to make [them] angry. Rather than being angry about the [quality of] animation, it would be cleaner if they had a feeling that made them want to flip over the table in front of them.



大泉 うちのかみさんは見事、それにはまってますね。

Oizumi: My own wife fell splendidly into that [trap].



竹熊 精神崩壊を起こしたようなものだからね（笑）。

Takekuma: It was like the work triggered a psychological collapse (laughing).



庵野 あと、こういうふうに話題になったでしょう、終わったあとも。そういう話題を提供することが僕の中でサービスだってことがある。前代未聞ですよ。これだけ作り込んでいて最後があれですから。

Anno: I also [thought] it would be a topic of discussion, even after it was finished. A part of it was that, for me, providing that discussion would be [a form of] service. [An] unprecedented [service]. Working assiduously at it, we got that kind of ending. [?]



大泉 最後は財布もはたいてスッカラカンになったって話ですが、経済的なところで言いますと、アニメーターの人、いちばん下の現場に降りていくお金は少ないっていうのはすごく有名な話ですけれど。

Oizumi: This has to do with the fact that you ended up spending all your money... From an economic standpoint, it's a well-known story that little money remains to be passed down to the animators, or those occupying the lowest positions [among the staff].



庵野 そうですね。とても、内容に比例する金額ではないですね。それの穴埋めには精神的なものしかない。上がったフィルムを見てもらって、面白くてやってよかったと思ってくれることしかない。精神的な報酬しか僕は用意することができなかった。でも、それはそれでプレッシャーには、なりましたけれどね。つまらなくなったらやめるってことですから。常に面白いものを供給しないといけない。真剣勝負でしたね。

Anno: Right. [What they get] is not at all proportionate to the [amount of] content [they create]. All they get to compensate for that [insufficient amount of money] is something psychological. [I can] only have them be pleased with the fact, when they see the finished work, that it is interesting and they are glad to have worked on it. I could only arrange for them to receive a psychological [form of] remuneration. But that becomes a kind of pressure in its own way, because they may stop working on it if it becomes uninteresting. I always have to provide something interesting. It was a game played in earnest.



竹熊 最後の二話に関しては、他のスタッフの方はどうおっしゃってましたか？

Takekuma: What did the other staff members say about the final two episodes?



庵野 納得ずく人もいるし、これでＯＫの人もいた。

Anno: There were some who were satisfied with it, and some who thought that it was acceptable.



竹熊 納得できない人というのは、いなかったんでしょうか。

Takekuma: So there wasn't anyone who was dissatisfied with it?



庵野 あんまりなかったんですね。最後の二本は、僕の中ではこういうふうに作らざるを得なかった。あとでリテイクすると言っていたことも関係してるんですけど。

Anno: Hardly anyone. I didn't feel that I could do the final two episodes any other way. [The lack of dissatisfaction] also had to do with the fact that I said we would "retake" [the final two episodes].



竹熊 リテイクできないってことになると、もうちょっと違った反応になってくるでしょうね。

Takekuma: If you [had said you] were unable to "retake" [the final two episodes], the reaction would probably have been a little bit different.

SPOILER: Show 大泉 竹熊さん自身、『ヤングサンデー』で連載『チャイルド・プラネット』でストーリーもの、ハルマゲドンを扱ってますね。

Oizumi: Takekuma-san, you yourself treated [the concept of] Armageddon in the story of "Child Planet," serialized in [the magazine] "Young Sunday."



竹熊 だから正直、『エヴァ』を見てまいったって思いました。同世代なって。始めた動機には近いものがあったと思いますね。あれも三年くらい前に考えた話なんです。

Takekuma: To be honest, because of that, when I saw Eva, I thought, "I give up!" [And also that] we were of the same generation. I think there were similarities in [both of our] motivations. That was a story I thought of about three years ago.



大泉 オウムでもそうですが、全然関係ないところから同時多発的アイデアがボコッと出てくる。

Oizumi: It's the same case with Aum. It's like the same idea bursting forth at the same time from completely unconnected places.



竹熊 大人になるイメージが稀薄で、大人にならなきゃいけないけれど、どんな大人になっていいかわからない。そういう状況で三六歳にもなってこんなこと言うのはみっともないんだけど、実際に見つからないのは事実ですね。それで、『エヴァ』もどつぼにはまった感じがした。シンジ君が大人になる話ですよね、ホントは。

Takekuma: Lacking an idea of [what it means] to be an adult, [we] have to become adults, but we don't know what kind of adult we should become. In this condition, having reached thirty-six years of age, it's disgraceful to say such a thing, but we have not actually discovered reality. Because of this, I felt that Eva, too, fell into a state of profound sadness. Eva is really the story of Shinji-kun becoming an adult.



庵野 それは、僕が大人になるってことと同じですよね。シンジ君って昔の庵野さんなんですかって聞かれるんですが、違うんですよ。シンジ君はいまの僕です(笑）。一四歳の少年を演じるくらい僕はまだ幼いんです。どう見ても精神医学的に言うならオーラルステージ（口唇期）ですよね。メランコリーな口唇依存型。まあ、これは不定しようのない事実で、しかたがないことなんです。そこから前に進もうと思ってたんですが、それは結果として自己への退行になってしまった。袋小路ですね。

Anno: That's the same thing as I [myself] becoming an adult. I'm often asked if Shinji-kun [represents] an old version of myself, but that's not the case. Shinji-kun is my current self (laughing). I act like a fourteen-year-old boy; I'm still childish. No matter how you look at it, in psychological terms, I'm [still] in the Oral Stage. A melancholic oral-dependent type. Well, this is a truth I can't deny; I can't do anything about it. I wanted to move forward from there, but the result was that I ended up regressing back to myself. A dead end.



竹熊 となると、ある意味ではアン・ハッピーエンドですよね。『エヴァ』の最終回は。

Takekuma: Then in a certain sense the final episode of Eva is an unhappy ending.



庵野 ある意味ではそうですね。そこから前に出たのがハッピーと取れば、アン・ハッピーなんですけれど。これでよしとすればハッピーエンドですね。

Anno: Right, in a certain sense. If you take moving beyond that as being happy, then it's an unhappy ending. If you think it's fine, then it's a happy ending.



竹熊 一応、ハッピーエンドの体裁は取ってますもんね。

Takekuma: At first glance, it takes the form of a happy ending.



庵野 サントラＣＤの最後の曲のタイトルにしてるんですよ。『グッド・オア・ドント・ビー』。ＯＫか生きるな、か。良いか悪いか。両方あるのか。そういうところに僕の心情をちょっと出してしまった。

Anno: I made [the idea?] the title of the last song on the soundtrack CD. "Good, or Don't Be." OK, or don't live. Good or bad. [Or] is it both? I revealed a little bit of my feelings there.



でも、僕らはこのまま成長を止めてモラトリアムのままずっとグルグル回ってますが、一つはモデリングがなくなったってことだと思うんですよ。人間にオリジナルなんてない。少なくとも日本語を知らなければコミュニケーションをとれないですよね。これはモデリングですよ。親がしゃべった言葉だからこっちに来ている。親が英語をしゃべれば日本にいても英語をしゃべる。友達が日本語をしゃべっていて、何だこれはってことになれば、今度は日本語をしゃべていく。自分ひとりで日本語は発明できない。模倣でしかものはできていかない。その時に一番最初、身近な親兄弟の真似をし始める。親を尊敬して親のあとを継ぐか、反発して親と違う道を行くしかない。どっちにしろモデルがないとどっちにも行けない。

However, I believe that we have stopped growing where we are and are going around in circles under a [kind of] moratorium, but one [reason] is that we have lost our [capacity for] modeling. There is nothing original in human beings. If I don't know Japanese at least, I can't communicate. Since my parents spoke this way, that's how I speak. If my parents spoke English I would speak English, even if I was in Japan. If my friends spoke Japanese, and I didn't know what [they were saying], then I would go over to speaking in Japanese. I can't invent the Japanese language myself. I'm only capable of doing things through imitation. At that time I begin to imitate my parents and siblings, those closest to me. I can either honor my parents and succeed them, or rebel and follow a different path from my parents. Either way, if I don't have a model, then I can do neither one.



どんな天才にもインスピレーションを起こすものがありますね。中には僕みたいにアニメやマンガしか見ていないと、そこから思いついたものをパッとやった時には、思いついたものはただ自分の中で忘れていたもので、必ず何か元ネタがあるんですよ。それでハッと気がついて、あっ、あれだったのかってわかって、ちょっと嫌な気がする。そういうものしか見てないから、まあ、それは仕方がない。自分の中に沈降しているものを無意識に引き出しているだけですからね。どんな天才でも花を見た感動を音楽にするとか、小説にするとか、本当にその花を認識しないと、小説も音楽も出てこない。人間は無いからものを作れない。これだけ情報量が氾濫していて、何をモデルにしていいのかわからないんです。特にテレビみたいなものから擬似的な情報がバーッと出てきて、自分のクラスメートの生年月日を知らなくても、山口百恵の生年月日は知っているとか(笑）。アイドルのバスト、ウエスト、ヒップのサイズとかいう細かいプロフィールは知っている。クラスメートよりも山口百恵に親近感のある世界だと思うんですよ。現実にいるクラスメートよりテレビの中の人物の方の存在感が大きい。ウァーチャルの方が現実よりも上という認識はすごいですね。そんな中で育っていて、きちんとしたものができたのかっていう気がします。大きくなれば、さすがにそれは嘘だってことになっても、ＮＨＫのニュースでアナウンサーが言われたことを本当ととってしまうんですよね。日本人はそういう傾向が強い。

No matter how much of a genius one is, there is something that awakes inspiration. If, like me, you look at nothing but manga and anime, when you have thought up something and created it, what you have thought up will only be something that you have forgotten; without question there will be some previous source for it. Then you will realize it, and recognize what it was, and feel a little bad. Since that was all you looked at, well, it was inevitable, because you are just unconsciously drawing out those things that have sedimented inside of you. No matter how much of a genius you are, if you are translating the emotions of seeing a [certain] flower into a song or a novel, if you were not really cognizant of that flower, you will not get the novel or the song. Human beings cannot create something out of nothing. With so much information flooding [us], we don't know what we should be modeling. Even if I don't know my classmate's birth date, I'll know on what day Momoe Yamaguchi was born (laughing). I'll know the minute [details of] an idol's profile, like her bust, waist, and hip measurements. It's a world, I think, where you feel closer to Momoe Yamaguchi than to your classmate. Characters on television have a stronger feeling of reality than your classmates who really exist. It's incredible, the awareness that the virtual is higher than the real. Growing up in such an environment, we aren't sure if things that are well done have been created or not. [?] When we get older, even if we recognize that those things are false, we take what the announcer on NHK news says to be true. The Japanese have a strong tendency in this direction.

This is indeed from Parano. However, it isn't "official" information, but part of the character bios written independently by the interviewers.I'm going to try translating some excerpts from Schizo/Parano, at random and based on suggestions. The books contain three interviews: two long interviews with Anno, dated June 19, 1996 (Schizo) and August 28, 1996 (Parano); and a long roundtable with Otsuki, Sadamoto, Sato, Tsurumaki, and Masayuki, which is split between the two books and undated. The content of the Schizo interview tends to overlap with or expand upon things Anno says in other interviews around the time; the content of the Parano interview is, I think, mostly unique. Anno seems very reticent at the outset of Schizo, and becomes more forthcoming at the interview goes on; he seems much "looser" throughout Parano as a whole. The roundtable takes place over drinks, and is very candid from the outset ^^ The interviewers are Mitsunari Oizumi and Kentaro Takekuma (with a few brief contributions from Yuichi Akata).Note that the titles of the sections do not always reflect the overall content of the sections, but are usually drawn from a brief part or short comment made by Anno or an interviewer. I have included the Japanese so that the translations can be checked; any comments or suggestions are highly appreciated.Mitsunari Oizumi's Introduction to SchizoFrom "Aum Shinrikyo and Eva." This section actually deals with Oizumi and Takekuma's introductions to and initial impressions of Evangelion, and contains little contribution from Anno.This is the untitled opening passage of Chapter 2, "How to Finish A Story." Although this section is untitled, it seems to correspond to the section listed in the contents as "An Unprecedented Service," which was omitted from the end of the previous chapter, where it was supposed to have been.From "At First Glance, a 'Happy End'"