Introduction

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Highlights

https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/255

There will be a Bitcoin ATM available at Defcon this year...that will be repurposed into a Monero ATM

Discussion about a Defcon application/document requirement for any organization accepting money in any capacity on the show floor.

Something something MAGIC something something t-shirts and stickers

something something The Monero Research Lab, Kovri, and MAGIC will all be represented (with a shared table) at Defcon

Full Log

12:00 PM <xmrscott> Alright, it's 16UTC, let's begin 12:00 PM <msvb-lab> Defcon meeting starting now (at 16:00 UTC) on this channel.. 12:01 PM <_Slack> <sean> I have to leave in 20 minutes, so I hope to talk about the ATM mailing fees beforehand. 12:01 PM <xmrscott> Agenda can be found here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/255 12:01 PM <@rehrar> woohoo! 12:01 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: Can we move ATM to the front so that Sean can participate with that? 12:01 PM <xmrscott> Yes, that was what I was trying to type 12:01 PM <xmrscott> sean: You have the floor, take it away 12:02 PM <_Slack> <sean> Ah, yes. 12:02 PM <@rehrar> go sean! 12:02 PM ⇐ TheoStorm quit (~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl) Ping timeout: 256 seconds 12:02 PM <_Slack> <sean> We are receiving a Bitcoin ATM machine for the conference. 12:02 PM <msvb-lab> No we are receiving a Monero ATM. 12:03 PM ⇐ @rehrar quit (~user@c-174-56-54-122.hsd1.nm.comcast.net) Quit: Leaving. 12:03 PM <msvb-lab> It will not be able to dispense Bitcoins, after we hack it. Really. 12:03 PM → @rehrar (opped) joined 12:03 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes, sadly the name of the device is "Bitcoin ATM" :( 12:03 PM <msvb-lab> sean: I see, you mean there is an official name. Okay, understand. 12:03 PM <_Slack> <sean> It's all the same to the manufacturer. 12:04 PM <_Slack> <sean> We'll be in possession of the ATM for the conference but are required to forward it to another address in Florida after we're done. 12:04 PM <_Slack> <sean> The device is heavy and with the packing slips and box the weight will be 53 pounds US. 12:05 PM <_Slack> <sean> The cheapest option is to use USPS Ground shipping. 12:05 PM <_Slack> <sean> For that size and weight, the total for the shipping will be $105.22 US. 12:06 PM <_Slack> <sean> Since we're receiving it already boxed, it's unlikely that we'll need to purchase shipping slips or another box. 12:06 PM <_Slack> <sean> And I assume we'll have access to shipping/masking tape at the conference. 12:06 PM <_Slack> <sean> So the shipping costs will be the only thing we will need to cover. 12:07 PM <_Slack> <sean> There may be other costs associated with operating the ATM but we haven't finalized the plans just yet. We will need to talk about those at the next meeting. 12:08 PM <msvb-lab> sean: Regarding shipping costs, I believe ajs will add that to the budget. It seems he has a plan to finance somethings. 12:08 PM <_Slack> <sean> OK, great. 12:08 PM <msvb-lab> Most of this is documented in https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-vegas-august-2018/task/52/ 12:08 PM <_Slack> <sean> Then I'll plan handle the costs and have a receipt available for review after. 12:09 PM <msvb-lab> sean: Thank you, that's a good plan. Make sure to inform ajs. 12:09 PM <_Slack> <sean> Will do. 12:09 PM <msvb-lab> It would be good to get people's opinions on operational concepts. 12:10 PM <msvb-lab> The manufacturer is keen on helping us, that's why they are sending the device in the first place. They have informed a local Vegas group or company that we request their help (it is a group with a money transmitter license.) 12:10 PM <msvb-lab> It's up to us if we accept the group's help if they offer it. 12:10 PM <oneiric_> sean msvb-lab: how will the ATM be connected to the internet? 12:10 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes. I've reviewed the software and have high confidence on its security. 12:11 PM <_Slack> <sean> It's likely that it will be able to connect to the hotel's WiFi without any issues. 12:11 PM <msvb-lab> oneiric: We can choose one of 802.3, 802.11 (+802.13? DC), or make our own hotspot. 12:11 PM <msvb-lab> I vote for copper cabled to DC's backbone. 12:11 PM <_Slack> <sean> It also has an ethernet port that we can relay to our own router. 12:11 PM <msvb-lab> ...but there are good reasons to choose 3G hotspot as well. 12:11 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes. 12:11 PM <oneiric_> sean: recommend against hotel wifi 12:11 PM <xmrscott> I also vote copper cabled backbone 12:12 PM <@rehrar> hear hear 12:12 PM <msvb-lab> Can anybody think of a good reason to reject this group's help with operation (to cover legality of licensing) if they offer it? 12:12 PM <_Slack> <sean> msvb-lab: My only concern is the problem of not getting support on the day we leave. 12:13 PM <_Slack> <sean> What do we do if that group just doesn't show up? 12:13 PM <msvb-lab> sean: If the group does not show up, then we have lost our first choice operation concept and must chose another. 12:13 PM <msvb-lab> ...assuming we place them in first choice place. 12:13 PM <_Slack> <sean> I mean, on the Sunday when we leave. 12:14 PM <msvb-lab> sean: What kind of support would we need? 12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> We will have the money in the lock box. If they don't come to collect it we can't do anything with the ATM. 12:14 PM → TheoStorm joined (~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl) 12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> They will have the keys that we will have to send so we can't send the ATM to Florida. 12:14 PM <msvb-lab> sean: I understand, so the worst case is that they sell their XMR, do not pick up the cash. 12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> We will be stuck in limbo. 12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes. 12:15 PM <msvb-lab> sean: You understand that we maintain control over the machine right? We hold the keys at all times. 12:15 PM <_Slack> <sean> That might be a concern to the group, then. 12:15 PM → sneurlax joined (sneurlaxma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xmbhjfwfpospceic) 12:15 PM <sneurlax> he's saying that we'll be responsible for their cash 12:15 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes. That's can be a problem if something bad happens. :S 12:15 PM <oneiric_> wouldn't that be incentive for them to show up? 12:15 PM <sneurlax> but it's their responsibility to pick it up prior to sending it off to FL 12:15 PM <msvb-lab> In fact, the manufacturer offered to supply the cryptocurrency as well, in case the group does not want this type of involvement and just wants to supply their agreement on paper that they are the operator. 12:16 PM <sneurlax> if they don't... nuts 12:16 PM → unixteacher joined (~unixteach@windows.unixteacher.net) 12:16 PM <sgp_> All right I'm here and can talk about MAGIC when you're ready 12:16 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes, this is confusing and could wind up bad. If we do this, we need to make sure that this group can guarantee that nothing goes wrong. 12:16 PM <sneurlax> this is great PR for the ATM (BTM?) company, of course they just want it to work well 12:16 PM ← unixteacher left (~unixteach@windows.unixteacher.net) 12:17 PM <_Slack> <sean> This is something we can discuss later though. 12:17 PM <_Slack> <sean> (I have to leave soon.) 12:18 PM <msvb-lab> There are other options to using the machine without the legality of having a license in place, I guess we could assume that minimal use is considered educational. Is that a better choice? 12:18 PM <xmrscott> sean: We just discussed corklanders cost list item, right? 12:18 PM <_Slack> <sean> smrscott: Yes, I'll be contacting ajs. 12:18 PM <@rehrar> just sell testnet Monero? 12:18 PM <oneiric_> lol 12:19 PM <_Slack> <sean> rehrar: That is actually an option, yes. 12:19 PM <@rehrar> Wait! hold on. 12:19 PM <@rehrar> We can sell Wownero 12:19 PM — @rehrar stops shilling now 12:19 PM <msvb-lab> I think to wrap up the ATM discussion, if the group rejects our greeting (no official request so far) then we move on to other choices. If the group offers to help, I'm going to write a message to the mailing list and please everybody do what they can to clarify what we should do at that point, okay? 12:19 PM <@rehrar> you got it 12:19 PM <_Slack> <sean> msvb-lab: Yes, that's good. 12:20 PM <oneiric_> +1 12:20 PM <_Slack> <sean> I have to leave. Thanks all! 12:20 PM <xmrscott> Thanks sean! 12:20 PM <sneurlax> See you! /starts mining testnet 12:20 PM <oneiric_> bye sean, many thanks 12:21 PM <xmrscott> So our next item is in regards to a "one time promoter application" which is due Monday 12:21 PM <xmrscott> msvb-lab can you speak more to what that is and what we need to get done? 12:21 PM <msvb-lab> This is task #56: 12:21 PM <msvb-lab> https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-vegas-august-2018/task/56/ 12:22 PM <msvb-lab> I don't have many details, and the form to fill out is rather self explanatory. 12:22 PM <@rehrar> oof, sales tax 12:23 PM ⇐ midipoet and Keniyal quit 12:23 PM <msvb-lab> There are rules at Defcon and one of them is, that all villages who fail to fill out a 'One time promoter application' by this Monday are forbidden to conduct sales in their space. 12:24 PM <msvb-lab> Last meeting the question was asked which things would be for sale in our village and everybody except me stated that nothing would be for sale, so I'm a bit confused about that to begin with. 12:24 PM <sgp_> Does this apply to donations? 12:24 PM <msvb-lab> But if I'm really the only one selling anything, then it's possible that I should be the one to apply. 12:24 PM <xmrscott> sgp: "Selling or Not Selling (donations are not taxable)" So no is my understanding 12:24 PM <sneurlax> Link to form? 12:25 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: I have information about that... 12:25 PM <sneurlax> or will there be just one for the whole village? 12:25 PM <msvb-lab> Villages accepting donations must fill out a 'One time promoter application' or else they are not allowed to accept donations. 12:25 PM <oneiric_> what about donations with swag as gifts? ;) 12:25 PM <sneurlax> it parenthetically says it doesn't apply to donations but that nonprofits need to be credentialed (bring your proof of nonprofit) 12:25 PM <xmrscott> sneurlax: Form (in wiki format) is here: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-vegas-august-2018/task/56 12:26 PM <msvb-lab> The donation does not requre sales tax to be paid. 12:26 PM <sgp_> All right, then MAGIC needs to fill out the form or be included in it 12:26 PM <msvb-lab> And lastly, nothing can be exchanged for a donation. 12:26 PM <sneurlax> thanks xmrscott, was expecting a link or address on that task 12:27 PM <msvb-lab> sneurlax: You read correctly (if you're referring to line #3) that villages accepting donations but not selling anything should state 'Not selling' in the application. 12:28 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: If our contact is MAGIC then they need to fill out the form today, basically. I need to get it by tomorrow (and there is half a world of timezone induced lag) then it needs to arrive in time for the Monday red alert. 12:28 PM <sgp_> So should I just include the details in a Taiga comment? 12:28 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: If it's okay with MAGIC to publish the form, then yes put it in the Taiga comment. 12:29 PM <msvb-lab> If not, then send it to me michael@getmonero.org. 12:29 PM <sneurlax> what's your preferred direct message platform/address? 12:29 PM <sgp_> ok 12:29 PM <sneurlax> ^^ 12:29 PM <msvb-lab> And the third option is if their information should have maximum anonymity they can send it to the organizer directly (I must provide that information to them privately.) 12:30 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: Are you fairly sure that MAGIC is going to handle the form then? Is it possible for you to call them now or something? 12:30 PM <sgp_> I'm on the board of MAGIC 12:30 PM <sgp_> We intend to solicit donations, so we will fill it out 12:31 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: Is it a wood board that you are on? Okay, I understand and think we can rest this topic then. 12:31 PM <msvb-lab> Let's be very very sure that the form gets in DT's hands on time though. 12:31 PM <@rehrar> boooo 12:31 PM → ArticMine joined (~ArticMine@S0106ac202ecaeb73.vn.shawcable.net) 12:31 PM <msvb-lab> I understand his concern. 12:31 PM ⇐ TheoStorm quit (~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl) Ping timeout: 244 seconds 12:31 PM <xmrscott> Alright, next item is treasurers reporting on sales plan 12:32 PM <oneiric_> can it be filled out as blanket form for monero & umbrella projects to receive donations? 12:33 PM <msvb-lab> oneiric_: The form is filled out once for our whole village and all our donation and selling activities, yes. 12:33 PM <xmrscott> AJS can't make it today, but AJS said to look at the draft here for reviewing: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-vegas-august-2018/wiki/budget 12:33 PM → TheoStorm joined (~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl) 12:33 PM <oneiric_> msvb-lab: thanks, sorry xmrscott 12:33 PM <xmrscott> No worries oneiric_ 12:33 PM <xmrscott> And "If anyone wants to add any other supplies to the budget, PM me on Mattermost/Slack/Riot or add a comment in Taiga #16 Multievent shopping list. FFS will be requested to cover these expenses." -AJS 12:34 PM <xmrscott> Pretty straightforward. 12:34 PM <xmrscott> Next item is "Press relations report the byline" 12:35 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: Just a minute? 12:35 PM <xmrscott> msvb-lab: sure, go ahead 12:35 PM <msvb-lab> Can we do a minute on accepting payments from treasurers. 12:35 PM <msvb-lab> I mean, if we have a group of treasurers they are probably skilled with exchanging currency. 12:35 PM <msvb-lab> So can we please have a single policy about how to accept XMR and if other currencies are on the list? 12:36 PM <msvb-lab> We can't solve the problem in this meeting, but we need agreement on if a single wallet is used for ETH or if ETH is simply not accepted, for example. 12:36 PM <sneurlax> should treasurers accepting payments share view keys? 12:36 PM <@rehrar> I would vote for XMR and USD only 12:36 PM <@rehrar> simpler 12:37 PM <@rehrar> anyone that wants to buy or donate using ETH can use ShapeShift or similar 12:37 PM <sneurlax> whatever globee does :P 12:37 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Good idea just XMR and USD. sneurlax, assuming we get help from GloBee (quite possible) then that would change our policy wouldn't it? 12:38 PM <msvb-lab> In any case, whoever get's interested by this may start by creating a monetary village policy in: 12:38 PM <msvb-lab> https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-vegas-august-2018/us/4/ 12:38 PM <sgp_> I think XMR directly (eg: Monero Integrations, direct) or GloBee is fine. People can donate in Bitcoin and I think that's fine 12:38 PM <msvb-lab> ...as a new task. 12:39 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: There are lots of mini questions even assuming XMR or GloBee, like do we issue a different PaymentID for example. And which format or how to check. 12:39 PM <sgp_> msvb-lab I see no reason to have a specific policy for that 12:40 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: Okay, that's a policy in itself. To allow each cashier to choose their manner of accepting payment. 12:40 PM <sgp_> When in doubt use best practices (integrated address) 12:40 PM → thunderstorm1 and Bluecore joined 12:40 PM <oneiric_> would using subaddress per transaction work here? 12:41 PM <sgp_> oneiric_ it could yes, though slightly less supported 12:41 PM <oneiric_> ok, thanks sgp_ 12:41 PM <msvb-lab> oneiric_ sgp_: Do either of you have time to make a task under user story 4, documenting things like subaddresses? 12:42 PM <oneiric_> msvb-lab: can take a look, and add some info 12:42 PM <sgp_> msvb-lab if you want I can come up with a list of "best practices" and we can see if we want to make any mandatory at a later meeting 12:42 PM <sneurlax> that might also fit under the education & demo tasks... or at least, documenting it like that serves two purposes 12:42 PM <oneiric_> ^ +1 for sgp_ :) 12:43 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: that's an excellent idea, and oneiric_ can add his info too. Thanks! 12:43 PM <sgp_> all right, I'll work on that 12:44 PM ⇐ floam412 quit (~floam412@unaffiliated/floam412) Ping timeout: 240 seconds 12:44 PM <xmrscott> Sounds like a wrap for that item, for now? 12:45 PM <xmrscott> Alright, I'm going to jump ahead briefly in the agenda because we have 15 min left and this item affects future meetings 12:45 PM <xmrscott> Next item: We have three Saturdays after this before DefCon which would mean one more meeting 7/28; is going to every Saturday to have three meetings instead warranted to ensure final alignment on various items? 12:46 PM <msvb-lab> Probably yes. 12:46 PM <xmrscott> Any people who believe having all future meetings every Saturday 16UTC would be bad? 12:47 PM <sgp_> Reminder that if you are participating in the Coffee Chat, you should join now. If you still need an invite, PM me 12:47 PM <sneurlax> I'd move to 17UTC but ... 12:48 PM <@rehrar> I'm down for weekly. 12:48 PM <xmrscott> sneurlax: The problem is that would put us in conflict for 2? Monero Meta Workgroup meetings 12:48 PM <oneiric_> weekly sounds good to me too 12:48 PM <sneurlax> whoops, 12:49 PM <oneiric_> I'm flexible on time of day 12:49 PM <xmrscott> Alright, I see no objection so FYI next meeting will be a week from now at 16UTC 12:49 PM <xmrscott> If there are it can be raised in the mailing list I guess 12:50 PM <xmrscott> So continuing our trend of jumping around to priority items, sgp's item regarding "Vendor tables and if a space can be secured for M.A.G.I.C. to give away free merch and solicit donations" 12:50 PM <sgp_> Yes 12:51 PM <sgp_> We want to give away free webcam covers, t-shirts, tri-folds with information, and stickers 12:51 PM <sgp_> It would be nice if we had a space to give it away 12:52 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: The golden release of our floor plan is: 12:52 PM <msvb-lab> https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/michael-vegas-august-2018/task/28/ 12:52 PM <sgp_> I'm not really familiar with the process of assigning tables 12:52 PM <msvb-lab> https://taiga.getmonero.org/media/attachments/0/6/5/3/6de58594e4cadaae08065b3ca1577c4fd4c3b17adce0fedc1f30f727cc8c/defcon-floorplan-3.png 12:52 PM <@rehrar> I have MAGIC's request for a table 12:52 PM <@rehrar> working on that 12:52 PM <msvb-lab> ...which clearly shows an area close to the doors where vendors can sell and showcase. 12:52 PM <sgp_> cool, that's all I really need then 12:53 PM ⇐ Bluecore quit (~Bluecore@2600:1:f61e:a856:d574:621d:fc45:3890) Ping timeout: 276 seconds 12:53 PM <oneiric_> IIRC, MAGIC and Kovri will be sharing a table. How do we want to divvy up the time? 12:53 PM <sgp_> We can go 50/50 if you want 12:53 PM <@rehrar> MRL and Kovri will be sharing a table 12:53 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: You and Tonya are in the process of determining a policy for providing folks like MAGIC space and time with a minimal rule set I think? 12:53 PM <@rehrar> MAGIC is a third entity 12:53 PM <@rehrar> yes 12:53 PM <oneiric_> Oh, I misunderstood then 12:53 PM <@rehrar> yeah, it gets confusing 12:54 PM <oneiric_> :) 12:54 PM <@rehrar> kovri will probably get one day and MRL the next day 12:54 PM <@rehrar> in regards to their table split 12:54 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Remember there are three days (more like two and a half.) 12:55 PM <@rehrar> hammering it out today 12:55 PM <@rehrar> do I need to send you an email with the final results too? 12:55 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Are you asking if I need a final result by email? No. 12:55 PM <@rehrar> ok, great 12:56 PM <@rehrar> I know the issue is if sponsors want to sell anything 12:56 PM <@rehrar> sponsors that want table space after the deadline will be informed it will be informational only 12:56 PM <@rehrar> if they get space 12:58 PM <xmrscott> Alright, we're at the two minute mark, msvb-lab is that enough for badge report? 12:59 PM <msvb-lab> Yes, badges are okay. From task #22. 12:59 PM <msvb-lab> https://taiga.getmonero.org/media/attachments/4/f/2/6/767065af14ac7943296df33f3c6727c31fccf671dba6a00a2e825742b5a3/defconfcpanel-08.jpeg 12:59 PM <msvb-lab> The only thing I'm worried about is that batteris (CR2032) have not arrived yet. 12:59 PM <msvb-lab> If anybody knows of a good backup plan in case we only get a half shipment (not enough for everybody) then it would be good to know. 12:59 PM <msvb-lab> There is Fry's in Vegas. Not a good backup plan however. 1:00 PM <msvb-lab> Keep your eyes out (mailing list and IRC) for advance purchase possibility in a week or two. 1:00 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: That's all for badges, thanks. 1:00 PM <sgp_> Coffee Chat link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxXtvMTDEuY 1:00 PM <monerobux> [ Monero Coffee Chat - 2018.07.14 - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 1:00 PM <xmrscott> OK, that's the meeting folks 1:00 PM → flacko joined (~flacko@unaffiliated/flacko) 1:00 PM <xmrscott> Thanks for all who could make it 1:01 PM <@rehrar> yay! 1:01 PM <@rehrar> Coffee Chat time 1:01 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: Good one, nice moderating. 1:01 PM <xmrscott> Next one will be 7/21 16UTC