MATTHEWS: Let's bring in Democratic Congressman Alan Grayson of Florida. Look, I'm not sure... I think I know what that means, "Make the good fight, make your big pitch." They've lost sight of the sales pitch in trying to get the thing made. But you still are faced with the realities. You don't have the 60 votes to break the filibuster in the Senate.

Grayson: I don't think we need 'em.

MATTHEWS: You don't need 60 votes?

Grayson: We've had a Congress now for 222 years. How long has there been a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate? How long? You tell me. You're a student of history.

MATTHEWS: Well, it's been a long time, and let me tell you, that's why nothing ever gets through Congress. [Laughs.]

GRAYSON: And the country somehow managed to function...

MATTHEWS: Name me a major bill that Congress ever got through that was partisan.

GRAYSON: We got tax cuts for the rich from the Republicans with 51 votes...

MATTHEWS: Easy! Anybody can cut taxes! That's not hard.

GRAYSON: No, tax cuts for the rich. Fifty-one votes.

MATTHEWS: It's easy! That's easy!

GRAYSON: Well, it turns out that in the 222 year history of the Congress, we've had a filibuster-proof majority for all of 14 years. And somehow, we managed to pass legislation on all those other occasions.

MATTHEWS: But you haven't created a major new program like health care for everybody. Can you pass a major new program, like Medicare, in the current environment, where there's such division.

GRAYSON: We not only can, we have to.

MATTHEWS: But that's just talking! How do you do it?

GRAYSON: It's not talking! There are people dying in America every day because they have no health care.

MATTHEWS: OK, OK. OK, you know, this show is about reality.

GRAYSON: Well, the reality is...

MATTHEWS: Tell me how you pass this bill with 41. You just got a guy elected in Massachusetts who said...

GRAYSON: Reconciliation needs 51.

MATTHEWS: ...he signs his name "41." That means enough to stop this bill.

GRAYSON: Reconciliation needs 51 Senators.

MATTHEWS: What are you talking about? What procedure do you know that Harry Reid doesn't know?

GRAYSON: What makes you think Harry Reid's not going to do it? I was calling for it six months ago.

MATTHEWS: That Dick Durbin doesn't know? That all those top guys, that Ted Kennedy didn't know?

GRAYSON: They said they're not going to use reconciliation?

MATTHEWS: The secret route to the Indies that only you know about?

GRAYSON: What are you talking about?

MATTHEWS: These Senators can't do it!

GRAYSON: They've been talking about this...

MATTHEWS: They've said they can't do it.

GRAYSON: Why do you think they can't use reconciliation?

MATTHEWS: Because you talk to any one of these Senators... have you talked to any of them lately? And what do they tell you? What do the Democratic Senators

GRAYSON: You think I'm their confessor?

MATTHEWS: OK, you ever call up a Democratic Senator and say why don't you do this by reconciliation?

GRAYSON: What makes you think they're not going to do it? What do you know that I don't know?

MATTHEWS: Because... they've refused to do it because they cannot get past the filibuster rule. The United States Senate is different than the House.

GRAYSON: I...

MATTHEWS: You're allowed to talk as long as you want in the Senate.

GRAYSON: Not with reconciliation.

MATTHEWS: Unless you get cloture.

GRAYSON: With reconciliation it's 51 votes, not 60 votes.

MATTHEWS: What do you mean, reconciliation? You can't create a program through reconciliation!

GRAYSON: You can create an amendment...

MATTHEWS: Nobody's ever done one!

GRAYSON: The bill's already passed with 60 votes, you...

MATTHEWS: Name a program that's...

GRAYSON: All you need to do is...

MATTHEWS: Congressman, just name me the program that's ever been created through reconciliation. Name one! One!

GRAYSON: As I said, tax cuts for the rich...

MATTHEWS: That's not a program! Under reconciliation, you're allowed to do two things, change fiscal numbers. You're allowed to raise taxes, or cut program spending. You cannot create something.

GRAYSON: You're saying that. You don't know that. Nobody else thinks that.

MATTHEWS: I just spent three years on the Senate Budget Committee when I was a kid, let me tell you, you can't do it, and you can ask... By the way, have you asked any Senator this question? This program... this plan you have?

GRAYSON: I'm in the other place...

MATTHEWS: Why don't you run for the Senate and try to...

GRAYSON: I'm in the House, not the Senate.

MATTHEWS: I know, that's why you're not in the Senate. In the Senate you have to do this thing...

GRAYSON: Oh, that's why I'm not in the Senate! OK, now I understand! Well, we got that cleared up!

MATTHEWS: In the Senate, you have to get 60 votes. Why do you think the Democrats fought like hell to get 60 votes? Why do you think the President and everybody else is dying over the fact that they lost Massachusetts? Because it didn't matter? You think they're all crazy over there, but you're smart?

GRAYSON: No, I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that everyone's been talking about reconciliation, and nobody has the guts to do it.

MATTHEWS: Name the United States Senator that's willing to do this. You keep talking about it...

GRAYSON: I think that's what you'll probably see at this point.

MATTHEWS: [Laughs.] Wanna bet? [Laughs.] Do you want to bet that they're gonna do this? In other words, they killed themselves to get 60 votes, but now they're gonna say all we need is 50, and Biden to break the tie.

GRAYSON: They shouldn't have killed themselves to get 60 votes. This is something they could've done six months ago.

MATTHEWS: This is netroots talk!

GRAYSON: No, look...

MATTHEWS: This is outsider talk, and you're an elected official...

GRAYSON: That's not true. That's not true.

MATTHEWS: ...and you know you can't do it. You're pandering to the netroots right now. I know what you're doing!

GRAYSON: You are wrong! This is something we talk about with the leadership in our caucus meetings every week!

MATTHEWS: OK, tell me how you'd convince the United States Senate Democrats, 59 of them, to do what you want them to do. How do you change their minds? Because they've made up their minds.

GRAYSON: They want to pass the bill.

MATTHEWS: Yes?

GRAYSON: The only way to pass the bill now is to use reconciliation.

MATTHEWS: Yes? And they're gonna do this?

GRAYSON: I think they will.

MATTHEWS: When will they do this, because I want to write write this down. When are they gonna do something that has never been done before? Create a program through this reconciliation process?

GRAYSON: You know, they've used reconciliation time and time again. You're saying create a program, as if that's something dramatically different from everything else the Senate does. It's not.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me tell you, the purpose of reconciliation is to take measures -- cutting taxes, er, raising taxes or cutting spending -- to reconcile actual government spending and tax policy with previous legislation that you've passed. You haven't passed a bill to create a health care plan.

GRAYSON: When did you become the Senate parliamentarian? Did I miss that?

MATTHEWS: Well, I worked over there for many, many years, and I worked for the Speaker for six years, I worked 15 years up there...

GRAYSON: Well, I'm speaking to the Speaker and the leadership this year...

MATTHEWS: ...and I know what I'm talking about! You ask anybody... you ask anybody in the Senate right now... Go call the Senate legislative counsel's office and ask them if you can do this. Go ask the parliamentarians if you can do this. You haven't bothered to do that.

GRAYSON: No, the leadership...

MATTHEWS: [Laughs.]

GRAYSON: ...my leadership has done that. And my answer is yes.

MATTHEWS: OK, this is a moot point. OK, so in other words, there's going to be a health care bill and it's gonna be passed by reconciliation. You predict that?

GRAYSON: I think that there'll be an amendment passed by reconciliation. We already have a bill passed, we just have to merge the two bills.

MATTHEWS: And when will this happen so that we'll get this thing done and stop arguing about it?

GRAYSON: Thirty days or less.

MATTHEWS: Thirty days or less, we will have a health care bill passed through the process of reconciliation?

GRAYSON: I believe so.

MATTHEWS: You believe so.

GRAYSON: And I certainly hope so...

MATTHEWS: You predict it?

GRAYSON: ...because America needs it?

MATTHEWS: You predict it? [Laughs.]

GRAYSON: It's the most likely option at this point.

MATTHEWS: [Laughing.] This is the problem, Congressman...

GRAYSON: What?

MATTHEWS: This is the problem. Every night, we deal with two worlds: the real world of Congress, that has to do things and get things passed; and this outside world, represented by the netroots and the other people out there, like yourself, who play this game...

GRAYSON: What are you talking about?

MATTHEWS: ...and it doesn't get done! [Laughs.]

GRAYSON: I sit in meetings with the Democratic Caucus week after week. You talk about netroots, netroots, netroots! I'm telling you, this is what we're talking about. This is what the leadership is telling us.

MATTHEWS: OK, we'll make a side bet. It's not gonna happen. Anyway, Congressman Alan Grayson, a true believer, who believes he can get things done by willing it!