im3w1l



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Sr. MemberActivity: 280Merit: 250 Hashrates of mining securities June 08, 2013, 10:06:36 PM

Last edit: August 12, 2013, 10:01:42 PM by im3w1l #1 Edit: Seems to be better info downthread, so removed

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ryan1894



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NewbieActivity: 53Merit: 0 Re: Hashrates of mining securities June 19, 2013, 04:15:47 AM

Last edit: June 21, 2013, 06:58:49 AM by ryan1894 #4



Since I cannot embed the document directly, and cannot export from google docs as an image - I have screenshotted the output manually.



https://i.imgur.com/y0JsAGK.png



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJpAFrm8wAzdHpXbGFsQ1lVX0h2YkNXSTNSQi1LRmc#gid=0 Comparison of mining securitiesSince I cannot embed the document directly, and cannot export from google docs as an image - I have screenshotted the output manually.

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities June 19, 2013, 04:26:32 AM #5 It may be useful to note which ones are already paying dividends and which are still waiting for hardware before they start.

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities June 19, 2013, 04:30:38 AM #6 And YABMC is only a bit over 0.6 MH/s per share not 1. Contract says 1 - but two of the partners in it scammed so the only hashspower currently being paid out is from what the honest partner in it pays.



If anyone wonders why ASIC.COOP is so cheap the issuer of it also ran a bond - which he defaulted on. Supposedly the cash from bonds was being used for various things - including mining. When he defaulted it turned out he had no mining (or had some and lied saying he didn't). Not sure how it turned out as he stopped responding in the forums. But potential investors should be aware there IS a reason why it looks such a good deal (aside from it being pre-orders anyway).

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities June 19, 2013, 04:36:36 AM #8 Believe JAH on Bitfunder now pays significantly more than 1 MH per bond - he increased it for free. Not logged into Bitfunder and can't remember exactly what he pays - but pretty sure he bumped it up a lot.



DMC can be removed - it's never been a mining company, just an investment fund.



I also wouldn't include ASICMINER or AMC - if you try to value them based on hashing you'd be doing the wrong thing.



Shares you CAN compare to PMBs - but any reinvestment percentage has to be treated as though it were paid out in dividends when working out the effective hash per share. Exception being companies that produce (or claim to intend to produce) their own hardware - those can't reasonably be compared based on hashing power.

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NewbieActivity: 53Merit: 0 Re: Hashrates of mining securities June 21, 2013, 01:13:48 AM #10 Quote from: Ac3Upz on June 20, 2013, 02:30:55 PM @ryan1894: PAJKA.BOND is mining at 3 MH/s, the 15 MH/s is promised when his BFL order (from February, if I remember correctly) is delivered.



I'm aware of that



I'm quite sure that most people who have a position in PAJKA.BOND are not holding it because it mines 3MH/s but because it promises 15MH/s when BFL delivers. In the same way people value ASIC.COOP differently etc. I'm aware of thatI'm quite sure that most people who have a position in PAJKA.BOND are not holding it because it mines 3MH/s but because it promises 15MH/s when BFL delivers. In the same way people value ASIC.COOP differently etc.

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities August 08, 2013, 12:33:00 AM #14 Quote from: furuknap on August 07, 2013, 10:07:33 PM Quote from: Progressive on August 07, 2013, 06:56:23 PM Today's update.

DMS.MINING is cheaper than running the ASICMINER USB...



So are scraps of paper, but neither that nor DMS.Mining is a PMB or even a mining operation. Neither is BFMines a PMB.



.b

So are scraps of paper, but neither that nor DMS.Mining is a PMB or even a mining operation. Neither is BFMines a PMB..b

Indeed, both are worth less than PMBs that are actually mining. DMS.MINING by an amount depending on when you think difficulty rises will level out (5-20%), BFMINES based on when you think they'll receive delivery (if you think tomorrow then it's worth maybe 10-20% more than a PMB, if you think not until after next difficulty change then less than a PMB).



Which isn't to say that any PMBs or mining investments are worthwhile at current prices - I wouldn't want anyone to think I recommended throwing money away buying any of them. My personal advice is that just about everyone is better off NOT buying anything which is MINING or virtual mining or investing in Mining ot anything at all to do with mining. On average you'll end up far better off just holding Bitcoins. I remain convinced that Bitcoin investors have lost more coins investing in mining than being scammed - just it isn't so obvious (and the boundary between the two is a bit blurred - many mining 'investments' have given totally shit projections that are tantamount to scamming due to having no basis in reality).



Getting back to the topic, if you invest in BFMINEs at current price you WILL make a loss. If you invest in DMS.Mining at current price you MAY make a loss (it's priced in the area where it could go either way). If you hold the bitcoins you WON'T make a loss. Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.



And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut Indeed, both are worth less than PMBs that are actually mining. DMS.MINING by an amount depending on when you think difficulty rises will level out (5-20%), BFMINES based on when you think they'll receive delivery (if you think tomorrow then it's worth maybe 10-20% more than a PMB, if you think not until after next difficulty change then less than a PMB).Which isn't to say that any PMBs or mining investments are worthwhile at current prices - I wouldn't want anyone to think I recommendedbuying any of them. My personal advice is that just about everyone is better off NOT buying anything which is MINING or virtual mining or investing in Mining ot anything at all to do with mining. On average you'll end up far better off just holding Bitcoins. I remain convinced that Bitcoin investors have lost more coins investing in mining than being scammed - just it isn't so obvious (and the boundary between the two is a bit blurred - many mining 'investments' have given totally shit projections that are tantamount to scamming due to having no basis in reality).Getting back to the topic, if you invest in BFMINEs at current price you WILL make a loss. If you invest in DMS.Mining at current price you MAY make a loss (it's priced in the area where it could go either way). If you hold the bitcoins you WON'T make a loss. Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut

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Sr. MemberActivity: 294Merit: 250http://coin.furuknap.net/ Re: Hashrates of mining securities August 08, 2013, 12:45:09 AM #16 Quote from: Deprived on August 08, 2013, 12:33:00 AM



Which isn't to say that any PMBs or mining investments are worthwhile at current prices - I wouldn't want anyone to think I recommended throwing money away buying any of them. My personal advice is that just about everyone is better off NOT buying anything which is MINING or virtual mining or investing in Mining ot anything at all to do with mining. On average you'll end up far better off just holding Bitcoins. I remain convinced that Bitcoin investors have lost more coins investing in mining than being scammed - just it isn't so obvious (and the boundary between the two is a bit blurred - many mining 'investments' have given totally shit projections that are tantamount to scamming due to having no basis in reality).



Getting back to the topic, if you invest in BFMINEs at current price you WILL make a loss. If you invest in DMS.Mining at current price you MAY make a loss (it's priced in the area where it could go either way). If you hold the bitcoins you WON'T make a loss. Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.



And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut

Indeed, both are worth less than PMBs that are actually mining. DMS.MINING by an amount depending on when you think difficulty rises will level out (5-20%), BFMINES based on when you think they'll receive delivery (if you think tomorrow then it's worth maybe 10-20% more than a PMB, if you think not until after next difficulty change then less than a PMB).Which isn't to say that any PMBs or mining investments are worthwhile at current prices - I wouldn't want anyone to think I recommendedbuying any of them. My personal advice is that just about everyone is better off NOT buying anything which is MINING or virtual mining or investing in Mining ot anything at all to do with mining. On average you'll end up far better off just holding Bitcoins. I remain convinced that Bitcoin investors have lost more coins investing in mining than being scammed - just it isn't so obvious (and the boundary between the two is a bit blurred - many mining 'investments' have given totally shit projections that are tantamount to scamming due to having no basis in reality).Getting back to the topic, if you invest in BFMINEs at current price you WILL make a loss. If you invest in DMS.Mining at current price you MAY make a loss (it's priced in the area where it could go either way). If you hold the bitcoins you WON'T make a loss. Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut

I'm actually just going to quote the whole thing for the record. I'm frankly a bit shocked at what you just wrote; not about BFMines but about your own investors.



.b I'm actually just going to quote the whole thing for the record. I'm frankly a bit shocked at what you just wrote; not about BFMines but about your own investors..b My Coinblog: http://coin.furuknap.net/

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities August 08, 2013, 12:51:03 AM #17 Quote from: furuknap on August 08, 2013, 12:40:15 AM Quote from: Deprived on August 08, 2013, 12:33:00 AM Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.



Wow. You're operating an asset you want to be perceived as a PMB and refuse any argument that it isn't a PMB.

Wow. You're operating an asset you want to be perceived as a PMB and refuse any argument that it isn't a PMB.

Its output is comparable to that of a PMB. It isn't actually a PMB. It's a way to bet on the value of something that's PMB-like - giving similar returns to a PMB without actually being one (the end-conditions stop it being a PMB as you've correctly pointed out yourself).



Originally it sold at price where anyone investing was thrwoing away money (same as with actucal PMBs). Now it's trading in a range where the outcome isn't so certain. Most actual PMBs/minign contracts are still trading at prices where it's a guaranteed loss for retards investors.



I don't (and never have) set the price for DMS.MINING - the market sets that. That the price happens to show how badly overpriced PMBs/contracts are is amusing but not under my control.



I want it to be considered as comparable in value (potential dividends paid) to a PMB but don't want it to be considered to BE a PMB : I've argued why it can be considered similar to a PMB on value but never argued that it should be considered to actually BE one.



If you fancy arguing there's any chance that your 'investment' will ever make a profit for investors then all I need are three things:



1. The amount you want to bet

2. The odds you want

3. The escrow you want to use



There's no "4. rhetoric". I may well refuse based on 2 (as the return wouldn't justify tieing up the capital) but if you feel the need to ask for odds then that tells its own story anyway. Its output is comparable to that of a PMB. It isn't actually a PMB. It's a way to bet on the value of something that's PMB-like - giving similar returns to a PMB without actually being one (the end-conditions stop it being a PMB as you've correctly pointed out yourself).Originally it sold at price where anyone investing was thrwoing away money (same as with actucal PMBs). Now it's trading in a range where the outcome isn't so certain. Most actual PMBs/minign contracts are still trading at prices where it's a guaranteed loss forinvestors.I don't (and never have) set the price for DMS.MINING - the market sets that. That the price happens to show how badly overpriced PMBs/contracts are is amusing but not under my control.I want it to be considered as comparable in value (potential dividends paid) to a PMB but don't want it to be considered to BE a PMB : I've argued why it can be considered similar to a PMB on value but never argued that it should be considered to actually BE one.If you fancy arguing there's any chance that your 'investment' will ever make a profit for investors then all I need are three things:1. The amount you want to bet2. The odds you want3. The escrow you want to useThere's no "4. rhetoric". I may well refuse based on 2 (as the return wouldn't justify tieing up the capital) but if you feel the need to ask for odds then that tells its own story anyway.

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities August 08, 2013, 01:04:09 AM #18 Quote from: furuknap on August 08, 2013, 12:45:09 AM Quote from: Deprived on August 08, 2013, 12:33:00 AM



Which isn't to say that any PMBs or mining investments are worthwhile at current prices - I wouldn't want anyone to think I recommended throwing money away buying any of them. My personal advice is that just about everyone is better off NOT buying anything which is MINING or virtual mining or investing in Mining ot anything at all to do with mining. On average you'll end up far better off just holding Bitcoins. I remain convinced that Bitcoin investors have lost more coins investing in mining than being scammed - just it isn't so obvious (and the boundary between the two is a bit blurred - many mining 'investments' have given totally shit projections that are tantamount to scamming due to having no basis in reality).



Getting back to the topic, if you invest in BFMINEs at current price you WILL make a loss. If you invest in DMS.Mining at current price you MAY make a loss (it's priced in the area where it could go either way). If you hold the bitcoins you WON'T make a loss. Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.



And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut

Indeed, both are worth less than PMBs that are actually mining. DMS.MINING by an amount depending on when you think difficulty rises will level out (5-20%), BFMINES based on when you think they'll receive delivery (if you think tomorrow then it's worth maybe 10-20% more than a PMB, if you think not until after next difficulty change then less than a PMB).Which isn't to say that any PMBs or mining investments are worthwhile at current prices - I wouldn't want anyone to think I recommendedbuying any of them. My personal advice is that just about everyone is better off NOT buying anything which is MINING or virtual mining or investing in Mining ot anything at all to do with mining. On average you'll end up far better off just holding Bitcoins. I remain convinced that Bitcoin investors have lost more coins investing in mining than being scammed - just it isn't so obvious (and the boundary between the two is a bit blurred - many mining 'investments' have given totally shit projections that are tantamount to scamming due to having no basis in reality).Getting back to the topic, if you invest in BFMINEs at current price you WILL make a loss. If you invest in DMS.Mining at current price you MAY make a loss (it's priced in the area where it could go either way). If you hold the bitcoins you WON'T make a loss. Now run along and buy your PMBs like a bunch of retards.And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut

I'm actually just going to quote the whole thing for the record. I'm frankly a bit shocked at what you just wrote; not about BFMines but about your own investors.



.b

I'm actually just going to quote the whole thing for the record. I'm frankly a bit shocked at what you just wrote; not about BFMines but about your own investors..b

Think you're getting confused here.



MY investors are people who bought DMS.PURCHASE - the only DMS security I sell or set the price for. How they then bet amonst themselves on MINING/SELLING is out of my control. The ones who bought MINING early on were fucking stupid. I could be polite about it and say they misjudged the situation but fact is they behaved liked retards. However they did so in their dealings with other people - not as investors of mine. If they'd just kept the PURCHASE they bought from me they'd have made a profit (that's a concept your own 'investors' will only have theoretical familiarity with). I can't help that they were stupid enough to think that a PMB was worth whatever they paid (to a fellow investor) for similar output from DMS.MINING - not would/should I WANT to help/stop it.



They lost less than if they'd bought actual PMBs - so hopefully learned their lession (more) cheaply.



One of the main objectives of DMS was (and it was openly stated) to try to determine what the market thought true value was for PMBs (by allowing trade on something similar to one). That was always going to result in some fools losing money (some of whom run investment funds selling to bigger fools). But overall I'm certain it reduced the cash lost in PMB-like investment.



I make no apologies at all for idiots losing money on DMS.MINING to less stupid people. Those idiots were going to lose that (or more) anyway - all I changed is who they lost it to (whoever happened to sell them the DMS.MINING rather than some near-scammer pretending selling a PMB or similar was an investment) and the degree to which is was obvious the loss was through stupidity not bad luck.



It may shock you but I'm actually not that bothered if my post -and you quoting it - deters idiots from investing in me in the future. Idiots generally don't get to keep their money. If I need/ask for funds where the return depends on my judgement (which isn't the case for DMS MINING/SELLING) then I'm totally confident the non-idiots will provide what I want/need. The idiots can buy YOUR shares. Think you're getting confused here.MY investors are people who bought DMS.PURCHASE - the only DMS security I sell or set the price for. How they then bet amonst themselves on MINING/SELLING is out of my control. The ones who bought MINING early on were fucking stupid. I could be polite about it and say they misjudged the situation but fact is they behaved liked retards. However they did so in their dealings with other people - not as investors of mine. If they'd just kept the PURCHASE they bought from me they'd have made a profit (that's a concept your own 'investors' will only have theoretical familiarity with). I can't help that they were stupid enough to think that a PMB was worth whatever they paid (to a fellow investor) for similar output from DMS.MINING - not would/should I WANT to help/stop it.They lost less than if they'd bought actual PMBs - so hopefully learned their lession (more) cheaply.One of the main objectives of DMS was (and it was openly stated) to try to determine what the market thought true value was for PMBs (by allowing trade on something similar to one). That was always going to result in some fools losing money (some of whom run investment funds selling to bigger fools). But overall I'm certain it reduced the cash lost in PMB-like investment.I make no apologies at all for idiots losing money on DMS.MINING to less stupid people. Those idiots were going to lose that (or more) anyway - all I changed is who they lost it to (whoever happened to sell them the DMS.MINING rather than some near-scammer pretending selling a PMB or similar was an investment) and the degree to which is was obvious the loss was through stupidity not bad luck.It may shock you but I'm actually not that bothered if my post -and you quoting it - deters idiots from investing in me in the future. Idiots generally don't get to keep their money. If I need/ask for funds where the return depends on my judgement (which isn't the case for DMS MINING/SELLING) then I'm totally confident the non-idiots will provide what I want/need. The idiots can buy YOUR shares.

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Hashrates of mining securities August 08, 2013, 01:15:05 AM #19 Quote from: furuknap on August 08, 2013, 12:40:15 AM Quote from: Deprived on August 08, 2013, 12:33:00 AM

And yeah - I've been drinking or I'd just keep my mouth shut

Not sure that's an excuse.



.b

Not sure that's an excuse..b

It wasn't intended as an excuse - but as an explanation.



Potentially what I said costs me BTC - as it encourages people think about how horrible PMBs/Mining investments in general are as investment - and so may reduce my sales of MINING and hence PURCHASE.



I neither seek nor need an excuse - as all I've done is told an uncomfortable truth. If it costs me a few BTC in management fees I'm sure I'll live with it. Fact is I've bitten my tongue a fair few times to avoid pointing out just how stupid people buying PMBs were - I have no regrets that a few beers made me (more accurately encouraged me to - as it in no way compelled me to do something I had no desire to do) say things the way they are.



Only apology I owe is to those of my investors selling DMS.SELLING who may find it harder to find a market now - but in truth the price of DMS.MINING has finally dropped to a point where it's no longer certain DMS.SELLING is the better bet anyway. It wasn't intended as an excuse - but as an explanation.Potentially what I said costs me BTC - as it encourages people think about how horrible PMBs/Mining investments in general are as investment - and so may reduce my sales of MINING and hence PURCHASE.I neither seek nor need an excuse - as all I've done is told an uncomfortable truth. If it costs me a few BTC in management fees I'm sure I'll live with it. Fact is I've bitten my tongue a fair few times to avoid pointing out just how stupid people buying PMBs were - I have no regrets that a few beers made me (more accurately encouraged me to - as it in no way compelled me to do something I had no desire to do) say things the way they are.Only apology I owe is to those of my investors selling DMS.SELLING who may find it harder to find a market now - but in truth the price of DMS.MINING has finally dropped to a point where it's no longer certain DMS.SELLING is the better bet anyway.