iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-13 13:16:18 #1



Hey Guys,

so i want to start a discussion if positional nukes are underused.



With positional nukes you can either force an opponent army to split up so that you can fight half of his army first, or you can force him to be out of position.

I prepared some images for that as an example how to use them. Remember it only costs 100/100 ressources and ghost tech to use that.

In my opinion this can be used in full potential against protoss because they always have their army sticked together and ghosts are pretty useful in that matchup. Versus zerg its pretty hard because of the creepspread and the fast units.



Examples:

Ohana:





Entombed Valley:





Daybreak:





These are only examples for how it could work, and its only in theory. So the discussion is:

Are (positional) Nukes underused?

Is it really viable in a progame to use those positional nukes?

Is it worth it to kinda rush to nukes for executing that and be able to snipe a nexus/main base?

What are your thought about that?



I hope we will soon see something like that happen in progames, would make them so more tactical and excited. Hey Guys,so i want to start a discussion if positional nukes are underused.With positional nukes you can either force anso that you can fight half of his army first, or you canI prepared some images for that as an example how to use them. Remember it only costs 100/100 ressources and ghost tech to use that.In my opinion this can be used in full potential against protoss because they always have their army sticked together and ghosts are pretty useful in that matchup. Versus zerg its pretty hard because of the creepspread and the fast units.Ohana:Entombed Valley:Daybreak:These are only examples for how it could work, and its only in theory. So the discussion is:I hope we will soon see something like that happen in progames, would make them so more tactical and excited.

TibblesEvilCat Profile Joined March 2010 United Kingdom 766 Posts #2 ^^; it does get used, just people forget to often Live Fast Die Young :D

TRpredator Profile Joined March 2012 Russian Federation 101 Posts #3 Yep positional nukes are underused but there s several problems with them

1) if opponent prepared like getting couple obs u can easily snipe ghsots

2) u need instant decision making for positional nukes which players lack till high master or gm

3) it s like double edged sword which means u can accidently dmg your army if u re not careful

u can eliminate all problems with army control and refining your play but takes quite some time

Sianos Profile Joined April 2011 580 Posts #4 I definitly think they are underused. The problem is that only building ghosts for the purpose of nuking will not cut it, so you have to find a way to include ghosts in your army composition. The only matchup where ghosts are currently used is TvP. Because of the snipe nerf ghosts are not used in TvZ anymore and in TvT you hardly ever see people using ghosts.



I don´t think it is worth rushing for nukes to achieve killing a expandtion or the main base, because nukes take 20 seconds to denotate which is a lot and needs exact planning and good multitasking.

TRpredator Profile Joined March 2012 Russian Federation 101 Posts #5 u can use them in tvt in bio vs mech and ppl still use them ag zerg to counter infestors



Daimai Profile Blog Joined July 2010 Sweden 759 Posts #6 On July 13 2012 20:23 Sianos wrote:

I definitly think they are underused. The problem is that only building ghosts for the purpose of nuking will not cut it, so you have to find a way to include ghosts in your army composition. The only matchup where ghosts are currently used is TvP. Because of the snipe nerf ghosts are not used in TvZ anymore and in TvT you hardly ever see people using ghosts.



I don´t think it is worth rushing for nukes to achieve killing a expandtion or the main base, because nukes take 20 seconds to denotate which is a lot and needs exact planning and good multitasking.



I hear EMP is good against infestors, which terrans also seem to be struggling with currently. I hear EMP is good against infestors, which terrans also seem to be struggling with currently. To pray is to accept defeat.

suprDivinesia Profile Joined June 2012 Finland 1 Post #7 I´ve seen MVP used tactical nukes couble of times in t-t and in t-p. Practically he has dropped mass medivacs in enemys base and nuked the ramp so enemy cant come from there. Meanwhile he destoyed whole base.



Also Naama and Hack (not sure was it hack) have done these things recently vs zerg broodlords.



A year ago I remember Idra quitting some game cause he had mass broodlords and couldnt attack terran cause terran launched nuke everytime he moved.



On ladder, specially year ago, many t-t games of mine game to point where both had huge tanklines and then tried to move enemys line to make a positional nuke.



We´ve seen it sometimes but yes, it`s still underused, a lot. "What ever doesnt kill you, simply makes you... A stranger."

Entteri Profile Joined August 2011 Finland 108 Posts #8 Imo the kind of strats you showed in the pictures can fail in too many ways. It's of not really viable against anything but toss so lets discuss that.



First of all the golden days of terran dropping a defensive toss are over. There will always be drop defense unless you did some big trades or something else significant happened in the game. A small attack at 3rd or a nuke going off wont be enough to pull drop defenses away.



Another thing that can totally screw you up is 1 observer above your ghost. Nukes simply take so long to go off that pretty much any unit will be enough to kill your ghost if spotted (since you prolly dont have any units around it). Having that much invested in a useless ghost academy (cloak?) + nuke means that you wont deal huge damage with the rest of your army unless you are all-in.



That kind of strat takes some really crazy multitasking because you have to be able to react in 3 places as soon as you see something. I guess that kind of nuke usage can be good later into the game, but I wouldn't use it as a timing attack.

kyriores Profile Joined February 2011 Greece 172 Posts #9 I can't see that working vs zerg, as speedlings/mutas are extremely fast + the creep and overlords will be able to provide sight for the Z to scout the drop early enough. Vs Protoss, it might be more effective as he won't be able to defend his base, but still, you will have a pretty undefended base yourself, so he might just opt to counter attack with 80% of his army while leaving some templars next to the ramp for feedback and storms. 4 medivacs in the enemy base means that there can't be more than 3-4 medivacs back in his base (if there are colossi and not just pure HT), which is bad vs a toss deathball.



So it might be a good way to surprise your opponent, but in master/gm league I doubt any good opponent won't be smart enough to counter it. Very casual, Diamond Terran.

101toss Profile Blog Joined April 2010 2395 Posts #10 On the extinction 4v4 map, you can lift off a barracks to the back island and nuke lock down two main mineral lines by minute 5 Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards

iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts #11 On July 13 2012 22:03 101toss wrote:

On the extinction 4v4 map, you can lift off a barracks to the back island and nuke lock down two main mineral lines by minute 5



Wow really? Thanks...

thats not what the topic is about btw



We talk about tactical/positional nukes not mineral line nukes.. Wow really? Thanks...thats not what the topic is about btwWe talk about tactical/positional nukes not mineral line nukes..

Maxilicious Profile Joined May 2011 221 Posts #12 It is hard to execute.



First of all, there is a 'timer' for the nuke to go down. Using the drop ship example, one cannot drop immediately when the nuke is just being placed, since opponent's army can still travel to the location of the drop.



In order to be effective, one has to drop when the nuke is about to land. That means, the nuke will only be marginally useful in the sense that it doesn't really prevent opponent's army to move back to defend. http://terrancraft.com/

mothergoose729 Profile Joined December 2010 United States 666 Posts #13 The problem with positional nukes in TVP, is that the terran army is generally so much weaker than protoss in open ground that late in the game. It is pretty hard to get to the point where you can throw nukes and ghosts away and still be able to bully the protoss. The range on a nuke is not very long. If you go in for a tactile maneuver, the ghost get sniped, you units force field and stormed, then you lose the game. Its really difficult to use.



I have seen MMA use it before against puzzle late game to delay engagements. MVP used it against squirtle I believe in the finals to harass expansions. What you are talking about, specifically, hasn't been used. I think in TVP at least there are some issues with range that make something like that difficult to pull off.

lorestarcraft Profile Joined April 2011 United States 1015 Posts #14 On July 13 2012 21:06 Daimai wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 13 2012 20:23 Sianos wrote:

I definitly think they are underused. The problem is that only building ghosts for the purpose of nuking will not cut it, so you have to find a way to include ghosts in your army composition. The only matchup where ghosts are currently used is TvP. Because of the snipe nerf ghosts are not used in TvZ anymore and in TvT you hardly ever see people using ghosts.



I don´t think it is worth rushing for nukes to achieve killing a expandtion or the main base, because nukes take 20 seconds to denotate which is a lot and needs exact planning and good multitasking.



I hear EMP is good against infestors, which terrans also seem to be struggling with currently. I hear EMP is good against infestors, which terrans also seem to be struggling with currently.



EMP is also good on medivacs. EMP is also good on medivacs. SC2 Mapmaker

mothergoose729 Profile Joined December 2010 United States 666 Posts #15 On July 13 2012 21:06 Daimai wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 13 2012 20:23 Sianos wrote:

I definitly think they are underused. The problem is that only building ghosts for the purpose of nuking will not cut it, so you have to find a way to include ghosts in your army composition. The only matchup where ghosts are currently used is TvP. Because of the snipe nerf ghosts are not used in TvZ anymore and in TvT you hardly ever see people using ghosts.



I don´t think it is worth rushing for nukes to achieve killing a expandtion or the main base, because nukes take 20 seconds to denotate which is a lot and needs exact planning and good multitasking.



I hear EMP is good against infestors, which terrans also seem to be struggling with currently. I hear EMP is good against infestors, which terrans also seem to be struggling with currently.



There are a lot of reasons you don't see EMPs on infestors that often. The timing of ghosts in TvZ much more closely lines up with hive tech for zerg. With BL infestor comps ghosts just can't get close enough because of broodlings. In ling infestor comps you are much more worried about splitting your marines and seiging your tankes in the few seconds you have to engage. A good emp on all the infestors matters little if your army gets mauled by banelings. The same things tend to happen with ultra based armies.



In addition to that, the range on EMP and on fungal are really similar. The raduis of EMP, sense the nerf, makes it difficult to use as well. Optimally you can emp four or five infestors with one go, realistically you might get three and be lucky after that to get your ghosts out alive. I have seen it used before in tvz, namely ryung got off a couple pretty nice EMPs when he played his game on whirlwind in the RO16. Its really difficult to use effectively though. Even if you get an EMP off, on a full energy infestor, they will still have one fungal. Many terrans prioritize snipe over EMPs for that reason. There are a lot of reasons you don't see EMPs on infestors that often. The timing of ghosts in TvZ much more closely lines up with hive tech for zerg. With BL infestor comps ghosts just can't get close enough because of broodlings. In ling infestor comps you are much more worried about splitting your marines and seiging your tankes in the few seconds you have to engage. A good emp on all the infestors matters little if your army gets mauled by banelings. The same things tend to happen with ultra based armies.In addition to that, the range on EMP and on fungal are really similar. The raduis of EMP, sense the nerf, makes it difficult to use as well. Optimally you can emp four or five infestors with one go, realistically you might get three and be lucky after that to get your ghosts out alive. I have seen it used before in tvz, namely ryung got off a couple pretty nice EMPs when he played his game on whirlwind in the RO16. Its really difficult to use effectively though. Even if you get an EMP off, on a full energy infestor, they will still have one fungal. Many terrans prioritize snipe over EMPs for that reason.

CygNus X-1 Profile Joined March 2011 Canada 169 Posts #16 Since we're on the topic of ghosts, why doesn't Terran use them more often? All I see is QQ all over stream chats, forums, etc. about how Zerg/Protoss is imba. EMP Infestors, stim, target fire Broods. EMP/Snipe Templar = no more storm. Nuke is the most unexplored concept in the Terran arsenal. Why not experiment with it? I think there is a mot of potential. Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation: We have assumed control.

MrF Profile Joined October 2011 United States 313 Posts #17 To be fair from a protoss player ghosts suck compared to HTs lets be honest here emp drains energy or shield which is cool and snipe is also ok i guess but both infestors and HT's have a beastly AOE damage ability that blows emp and snipe out of the water and they both have other abilities as well, not to mention that is is much simpler to land a money storm or fungal then it is to snipe all the HT/infestors and while emp is similarly easy to hit alot of units with it is really kinda weak unless used on specific units like HT/infestor making it alot harder to utilize to the fullest.

I dont think toss/zerg or any race is imba, i do think that ghosts are crap compared to HTs and infestors. And yes nukes are cool but they are fairly un-used and its all well and good for a protoss/zerg to say "well terrans should figure out how to use them better" when all the pros still havent found a really solid way of using them, and i am sure they are trying. HunterXHunter is awesome

9-BiT Profile Blog Joined January 2012 United States 1013 Posts #18 I do think nukes are underused, and by extension, so are ghosts. Just because they were nerfed doesn't mean that they are unusable, and I think it is part of the missing piece of terrans matchups. kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?

iSHOKZ Profile Joined July 2011 Germany 136 Posts #19 On July 14 2012 04:39 MrF wrote:

To be fair from a protoss player ghosts suck compared to HTs lets be honest here emp drains energy or shield which is cool and snipe is also ok i guess but both infestors and HT's have a beastly AOE damage ability that blows emp and snipe out of the water and they both have other abilities as well, not to mention that is is much simpler to land a money storm or fungal then it is to snipe all the HT/infestors and while emp is similarly easy to hit alot of units with it is really kinda weak unless used on specific units like HT/infestor making it alot harder to utilize to the fullest.

I dont think toss/zerg or any race is imba, i do think that ghosts are crap compared to HTs and infestors. And yes nukes are cool but they are fairly un-used and its all well and good for a protoss/zerg to say "well terrans should figure out how to use them better" when all the pros still havent found a really solid way of using them, and i am sure they are trying.



You can't compare ghosts to high templars and infestors they are completly different units with different rules.



Furthermore if you would try to figure out positional nukes more you can figure them out and time them correctly in my opinion You can't compare ghosts to high templars and infestors they are completly different units with different rules.Furthermore if you would try to figure out positional nukes more you can figure them out and time them correctly in my opinion

Nihonjin Profile Joined October 2011 66 Posts #20 Are you kidding me. Ghost are way more superior than ht esp in pvt.



Ghost have way more hp, they can attack, they move much faster, emp range is ridiculous conpared to fb, emp hits alot more trget and ht with0 energy is basic dead unlike ghost that can attack. And oh did i forget cloak,domt have to research emp,snipe and can nuke.



Lets face it, ghost are stronger. Storm can be dodged, not emp. Fb is useless when ghost can snipe it million miles away first ir emp clumped up ht.

1 2 3 4 5 Next All