TheDwf Profile Joined November 2011 France 19747 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-10 00:31:31 #1



The incident:

http://www.twitch.tv/wardiii/v/4810270?t=10h31m45s

http://www.twitch.tv/wardiii/v/4810270?t=10h37m40s



Some lag occurred at ~12'14 ingame (first link, 10h32 for the actual action), preventing players from controlling their units; you can see it with HyuN's Roaches being on move command. After FanTaSy lagged, HyuN paused the game. Rules state that he had to call an admin.



Has there been any follow-up to the resume from replay incident between FanTaSy and HyuN at Dreamhack Tours?The incident:Some lag occurred at ~12'14 ingame (first link, 10h32 for the actual action), preventing players from controlling their units; you can see it with HyuN's Roaches being on move command. After FanTaSy lagged, HyuN paused the game. Rules state that he had to call an admin. Pausing

If a player must pause the game due to technical difficulties the player must if possible tell the opponent about this before pausing. After pausing the player must inform an administrator.

If a game is paused without a reasonable explanation such as a technical difficulty the game might result in a forfeit.

http://open.dreamhack.se/page/2015-starcraft-ruleset/



This was not done, and [since lag had visibly affected the outcome of the fight] HyuN proceeded to resume the game from replay at an advantageous timing for him (second link), which allowed him to cancel his wrong decision to engage FanTaSy's troops at his third. He then went on to win the game.



Many viewers immediately saw the issue (see the



FanTaSy then went on to lose the series, and the tournament followed its course like nothing occurred…



What would have happened had HyuN won the whole tournament afterwards? Even as of now, HyuN earned 3k$ and 375 WCS points… on the back of an illegal and illegitimate move.



This whole situation reeks of amateurism. This was not done, and [since lag had visibly affected the outcome of the fight] HyuN proceeded to resume the game from replay at an advantageous timing for him (second link), which allowed him to cancel his wrong decision to engage FanTaSy's troops at his third. He then went on to win the game.Many viewers immediately saw the issue (see the LR thread ; there is also some debate from p. 138 onwards if you're interested), yet nothing happened. At this time, the situation could have still been solved with a quick reaction from admins, but the series was completed without any intervention. Why? What were admins up to? Why was the game not supervised by some referee? (It was a RO16 match; only 2 games were played at the same time.) Players should never have to be in that situation, prone to abuse by nature.FanTaSy then went on to lose the series, and the tournament followed its course like nothing occurred…What would have happened had HyuN won the whole tournament afterwards? Even as of now, HyuN earned 3k$ and 375 WCS points… on the back of an illegal and illegitimate move.This whole situation reeks of amateurism.

riotjune Profile Blog Joined January 2008 United States 2928 Posts #2 Well ain't that a shit

Pr0wler Profile Joined February 2007 Bulgaria 2092 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-10 00:02:14 #3 No Rober Ohlen, no professionalism.

My Quote:*[i]Max.255 Chars[/i]

royalroadweed Profile Joined April 2013 United States 8106 Posts #4 Fantasy got fucked over. Too much of a nice guy to say anything I guess. "Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10250 Posts #5 Wait so Hyun just unpaused the game himself? ... AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

LongShot27 Profile Joined May 2013 United States 2084 Posts #6 it's a very simple answer, dreamhack fucked up If all men were created equal there would be no reason to declare it.

linuxguru1 Profile Joined February 2012 Belgium 110 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-10 00:23:49 #7 Yesterday something similar happened to me on ladder. The game was moving (no lagging, mineralcounter going up etc), but my attackmoves/move commands were not issued at all! Maybe HyuN was having a similar issue and that's why he resumed where he did?

Deathstar Profile Blog Joined May 2010 9150 Posts #8 Is there a way to directly bring this to dreamhack's attention? I don't think they know about this because the organization haven't said anything. rip passion

EngrishTeacher Profile Blog Joined March 2012 Canada 1109 Posts #9 Too bad nothing will come of this.



Fantasy getting royally screwed.

Pr0wler Profile Joined February 2007 Bulgaria 2092 Posts #10 On May 10 2015 09:25 Deathstar wrote:

Is there a way to directly bring this to dreamhack's attention? I don't think they know about this because the organization haven't said anything.

And they will do what ??? The tournament is over. They can do litteraly nothing. And they will do what ??? The tournament is over. They can do litteraly nothing. My Quote:*[i]Max.255 Chars[/i]

jubil Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 2396 Posts #11 I remember watching at the time and thinking it was a little scummy (which I think the caster even commented on) but not cheating. It is somewhat similar to agreeing to a regame with the same build order, but changing a mid-game army engagement decision, something that I don't think is considered against the rules.



The thing is, watching the game again, the lag definitely affected Hyun's attack such that he didn't do as much damage as he should have. Besides the move command vs attack move, without lag he could have split better, or focused marauders, or microed weak roaches away. Therefore, I don't think that it's certain that the decision upon resume to not attack titled the game in Hyun's favor very much.



The key decision (besides the issue to resume from replay at all instead of regame) is the point from which the game should be resumed, and that decision needs to be made by an admin instead of a player. After the point at which the game resumes, players should feel free to duplicate or not duplicate whatever aspects of the previous game they see fit (otherwise, why not just resume from a later point to force the similarity?). In all, amateur on Dreamhack's part for sure, but not quite illegal and illegitimate on Hyun's part, in my opinion. Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!

alphaboss Profile Joined July 2014 United States 11 Posts #12 Why doesn't this surprise me?

Just another day at Dreamhack ohai

ZenithM Profile Joined February 2011 France 15950 Posts #13 On May 10 2015 09:31 jubil wrote:

[...].

Besides the move command vs attack move, without lag he could have split better, or focused marauders, or microed weak roaches away. [...]

I like your thinking, jubil, but no Zerg does things like that, especially not with roaches, and especially not Hyun :D I like your thinking, jubil, but no Zerg does things like that, especially not with roaches, and especially not Hyun :D

sagi Profile Joined October 2011 Finland 346 Posts #14 Hyun would have most likely disengaged from the fight at an early stage as soon has he would'fve seen he was heavily outnumbered. if there was no lag he would've lost some roaches while retreating. The lag made it a complere disaster.



Hyun should've typed pp, but forgot to do so as he was watching his army disappear at 6 frames per minute rate. Or he couldn't do it. It's up to the admins to determine if he could have done so and punish him for the illegal move if he could have typed pp in a reasonable time before pausing.



Without lag he would've lost some units while retreating and this outcome is the fair one we in my opinion should strive for. This however is almost impossible to simulate afterwards. If Fantasy thought the restart was unfair this is on him. He should've raised a protest to the admins.



Most likely they asked Fantasy if resume from an earlier point was OK and he agreed as the total loss of Hyun's army is far from the most likely outcome we would've seen without lag. He lost the advantage he would've gotten normally by killing part of the retreating army while he propably deemed it fair albeit an unfortunate loss.



If they didn't get OK from Fantasy, then we should question the referees' choices. Otherwise I'd say business as usual in e-Sports and carry on... hi patrik!

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #15 On May 10 2015 09:47 sagi wrote:

Hyun would have most likely disengaged from the fight at an early stage as soon has he would'fve seen he was heavily outnumbered. if there was no lag he would've lost some roaches while retreating. The lag made it a complere disaster.



Hyun should've typed pp, but forgot to do so as he was watching his army disappear at 6 frames per minute rate. Or he couldn't do it. It's up to the admins to determine if he could have done so and punish him for the illegal move if he could have typed pp in a reasonable time before pausing.



Without lag he would've lost some units while retreating and this outcome is the fair one we in my opinion should strive for. This however is almost impossible to simulate afterwards. If Fantasy thought the restart was unfair this is on him. He should've raised a protest to the admins.



Most likely they asked Fantasy if resume from an earlier point was OK and he agreed as the total loss of Hyun's army is far from the most likely outcome we would've seen without lag. He lost the advantage he would've gotten normally by killing part of the retreating army while he propably deemed it fair albeit an unfortunate loss.



If they didn't get OK from Fantasy, then we should question the referees' choices. Otherwise I'd say business as usual in e-Sports and carry on...

read the OP, no referees were involved. read the OP, no referees were involved.

jubil Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 2396 Posts #16 On May 10 2015 09:39 ZenithM wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 10 2015 09:31 jubil wrote:

[...].

Besides the move command vs attack move, without lag he could have split better, or focused marauders, or microed weak roaches away. [...]

I like your thinking, jubil, but no Zerg does things like that, especially not with roaches, and especially not Hyun :D I like your thinking, jubil, but no Zerg does things like that, especially not with roaches, and especially not Hyun :D



Yeah, I guess it's not really likely than anyone would actually bother, but still, theoretically possible at least, right? Yeah, I guess it's not really likely than anyone would actually bother, but still, theoretically possible at least, right? Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!

sagi Profile Joined October 2011 Finland 346 Posts Last Edited: 2015-05-10 01:20:22 #17 On May 10 2015 09:58 Big J wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 10 2015 09:47 sagi wrote:

Hyun would have most likely disengaged from the fight at an early stage as soon has he would'fve seen he was heavily outnumbered. if there was no lag he would've lost some roaches while retreating. The lag made it a complere disaster.



Hyun should've typed pp, but forgot to do so as he was watching his army disappear at 6 frames per minute rate. Or he couldn't do it. It's up to the admins to determine if he could have done so and punish him for the illegal move if he could have typed pp in a reasonable time before pausing.



Without lag he would've lost some units while retreating and this outcome is the fair one we in my opinion should strive for. This however is almost impossible to simulate afterwards. If Fantasy thought the restart was unfair this is on him. He should've raised a protest to the admins.



Most likely they asked Fantasy if resume from an earlier point was OK and he agreed as the total loss of Hyun's army is far from the most likely outcome we would've seen without lag. He lost the advantage he would've gotten normally by killing part of the retreating army while he propably deemed it fair albeit an unfortunate loss.



If they didn't get OK from Fantasy, then we should question the referees' choices. Otherwise I'd say business as usual in e-Sports and carry on...

read the OP, no referees were involved. read the OP, no referees were involved.



I did. I didn't get an impression they were slacking off waching "desperate house wives of tours" while this was going on. It's a choice to not do anything if they think everything is ok and the players agree.



Edit: I read it 4 more times and I still find it impossible that not a single admin was watching the game. If there truly was zero attendance from staff on a broadcasted game we might as well drop Dreamhack from WCS... I did. I didn't get an impression they were slacking off waching "desperate house wives of tours" while this was going on. It's a choice to not do anything if they think everything is ok and the players agree.Edit: I read it 4 more times and I still find it impossible that not a single admin was watching the game. If there truly was zero attendance from staff on a broadcasted game we might as well drop Dreamhack from WCS... hi patrik!

fmod Profile Blog Joined November 2013 Cayman Islands 330 Posts #18 The hindsight squad right here.. I don't particularly like you.

jubil Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 2396 Posts #19 On May 10 2015 10:06 sagi wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 10 2015 09:58 Big J wrote:

On May 10 2015 09:47 sagi wrote:

Hyun would have most likely disengaged from the fight at an early stage as soon has he would'fve seen he was heavily outnumbered. if there was no lag he would've lost some roaches while retreating. The lag made it a complere disaster.



Hyun should've typed pp, but forgot to do so as he was watching his army disappear at 6 frames per minute rate. Or he couldn't do it. It's up to the admins to determine if he could have done so and punish him for the illegal move if he could have typed pp in a reasonable time before pausing.



Without lag he would've lost some units while retreating and this outcome is the fair one we in my opinion should strive for. This however is almost impossible to simulate afterwards. If Fantasy thought the restart was unfair this is on him. He should've raised a protest to the admins.



Most likely they asked Fantasy if resume from an earlier point was OK and he agreed as the total loss of Hyun's army is far from the most likely outcome we would've seen without lag. He lost the advantage he would've gotten normally by killing part of the retreating army while he propably deemed it fair albeit an unfortunate loss.



If they didn't get OK from Fantasy, then we should question the referees' choices. Otherwise I'd say business as usual in e-Sports and carry on...

read the OP, no referees were involved. read the OP, no referees were involved.



I did. I didn't get an impression they were slacking off waching "desperate house wives of tours" while this was going on. It's a choice to not do anything if they think everything is ok and the players agree.



Edit: I read it 4 more times and I still find it impossible that not a single admin was watching the game. If there truly was zero attendance from staff on a broadcasted game we might as well drop Dreamhack from WCS... I did. I didn't get an impression they were slacking off waching "desperate house wives of tours" while this was going on. It's a choice to not do anything if they think everything is ok and the players agree.Edit: I read it 4 more times and I still find it impossible that not a single admin was watching the game. If there truly was zero attendance from staff on a broadcasted game we might as well drop Dreamhack from WCS...



rewatched the VOD a few times and I can't tell who made the decision to resume instead of regame (Hyun was typing a bunch in Korean after the pause so maybe that was it?) The caster Wardi said something like "we're being told this, we're gonna recover this game" without specifying who was telling him, players or admins. rewatched the VOD a few times and I can't tell who made the decision to resume instead of regame (Hyun was typing a bunch in Korean after the pause so maybe that was it?) The caster Wardi said something like "we're being told this, we're gonna recover this game" without specifying who was telling him, players or admins. Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!

sagi Profile Joined October 2011 Finland 346 Posts #20 Maybe someone can translate the chat properly, but on the first line Hyun says something like "record resume" (English written in hangul). I entered the second line to google translate and it gives "Following it is going to be the same". So propably asking about if we should restart from replay. Fantasy responds "ne", which means yes. Then the screen goes to the caster and we don't see if they continue chatting. This is where I'd assume a referee would step in to give judgement, but we don't see if this happens.



So at least we know both of the players though this was the proper thing to do. Who knows what the referees did at this point or if they were there at all. Yet I still find the concept that no referee was present weird so my guess is they just went along with the players' choice. hi patrik!

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