Barrister-turned-informer Nicola Gobbo has told 7.30 she fears Victoria Police will kill her or leak information that could lead to her death.

Key points: Nicola Gobbo was a gangland lawyer in Melbourne who became an informant to Victoria Police

Nicola Gobbo was a gangland lawyer in Melbourne who became an informant to Victoria Police The High Court lifted a suppression order, revealing her identity to the media in March this year

The High Court lifted a suppression order, revealing her identity to the media in March this year Ms Gobbo says she left the country fearing for her family's safety but her biggest fear is Victoria Police

In a world exclusive, Ms Gobbo spoke to 7.30 from a secret, neutral international location. She never disclosed where she currently lives.

The former gangland lawyer and her two young children have spent the past year overseas in what Ms Gobbo describes as an increasingly desperate and isolated existence.

"I find myself some days thinking this is just an unbelievable nightmare that there is no end to," Ms Gobbo said.

"Myself and my two young children are presently stranded overseas. We are effectively stateless because we have been left in a foreign country in which we have no rights, because obviously, we're foreigners. And we can't obtain residency," Ms Gobbo said.

As a barrister, 46-year-old Ms Gobbo represented many notorious criminals, including Tony Mokbel and Carl Williams, during Melbourne's gangland war, which was later made famous in the Channel Nine drama series Underbelly.

She was also passing information about her clients to Victoria Police.

The Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants is examining Victoria Police's recruitment and use of Ms Gobbo as a high-value informer. She was considered within Victoria Police as "a glittering prize".

Tony Mokbel with Nicola Gobbo outside court in 2004. ( ABC News )

Ms Gobbo told 7.30 she left Australia before the royal commission due to safety concerns.

Ms Gobbo said she has been living in hiding with her two children and wants to return to Australia.

But she claimed she has been threatened with the removal of her children from her care if she ever returns home.

"Victoria Police maintain that the children are potentially at risk and that that potential risk is so great that nothing that I do, or anyone else does for that matter or puts in place, as in things like increasing security or removing myself from public, for example … would ameliorate that risk sufficiently, and that therefore, it's in the best interests of the children to not be with their mother," Ms Gobbo said.

"It's not the first time that they [Victoria Police] threatened me in relation to toeing the line and doing things their way or they would take my children," Ms Gobbo claimed.

In a statement to 7.30, Victoria Police said it "will not be commenting".

"These matters are highly relevant to the current royal commission and as such, it would be inappropriate to comment," the statement read.

Ms Gobbo claimed her children have been traumatised and now suffer from separation anxiety.

"We have been gone from our home for … almost 12 months to the day. We … were not given any opportunity to explain anything to anybody, or particularly in terms of the children, have any form of closure … It remains their belief that they were chased out of their home by police that are trying to take their mummy away, and that, to any parent, is beyond devastating," Ms Gobbo said.

Ms Gobbo is preparing to sue Victoria Police for causing personal injury to her and her children. 7.30 understands she will seek millions of dollars in damages.

Ms Gobbo settled her claim in 2010 in a separate legal action against Victoria Police which was reported in the media as being several millions of dollars.

Numerous threats

Nicola Gobbo says she does not want to enter witness protection. ( ABC News: Greg Nelson )

The royal commission has heard the former lawyer-turned-informer worked closely with police to gather evidence on gangland murders and large-scale drug operations.

She claimed in a 2015 letter that her assistance led to 386 arrests.

But Ms Gobbo told 7.30 she had never been in, nor would ever enter, the witness protection program, despite Victoria Police assessing the risk to her safety as very high.

"There is no way I would trust them [Victoria Police]," Ms Gobbo said.

The royal commission has heard the former barrister received numerous threats from the Melbourne underworld.

These threats included being grabbed around the throat by one of her clients, and text messages threatening rape and murder.

Despite that, the former lawyer said she and her children would be safer in Australia than overseas.

"I will always live with the concern that, I mean, you can't control what some crazy might do … So there may be a situation where someone tries to do something … not a day from now, but a month from now, a year from now, 10 years from now," she said.

"The best thing I can do is to be in a known environment, where I can know that someone doesn't look right and that there is someone that's out of place, or something not right in terms of the way things appear, as opposed to when you're in a foreign country or another place that you're not familiar with, where you wouldn't have a clue," Ms Gobbo said.

But Ms Gobbo claimed the biggest threat to her safety is Victoria Police.

"There's always going to be a risk [to her safety], but my greatest fear is the police themselves," Ms Gobbo claimed.

When asked if she meant that rogue members of police might try to kill her, she replied: "Either to kill me or to lead to, lead to a position where I am killed."

She elaborated that part of her fear stems from Victoria Police's "ability to burn me, cut me off and not protect me".

"Look where I am. I mean, I am stuck," she said.

Ms Gobbo says she wants to give evidence at commission

Commissioner Margaret McMurdo speaking at the Victorian Royal Commission into Management of Police Informants. ( Supplied: Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants )

In the interview with 7.30, Ms Gobbo declined to answer certain questions about her conduct, citing the need to avoid discussing matters which are currently before the royal commission.

Head of the royal commission Margaret McMurdo has expressed frustration that Ms Gobbo has so far failed to give evidence under oath.

Last week she ordered the former lawyer to begin giving evidence over the telephone from January 29.

Commissioner McMurdo has already recorded three telephone conversations with Ms Gobbo, not under oath.

Ms Gobbo's medical specialists have told the royal commission the former lawyer is too unwell to give evidence from her current location and is suffering from numerous physical and mental issues.

Ms Gobbo told 7.30 she wants to give evidence but has not been able to due to her location, health issues, and having the sole care of her two young children.

"In order to produce a witness statement I would conservatively guess that that would take me 1,000 hours, and … I mean, 1,000 hours without being interrupted, being able to concentrate and not being in pain. And then an opportunity to review the, what I understood some months ago, to be 30,000 pages of material."

Ms Gobbo said she was only able to do an on-camera interview with 7.30 because the team travelled to meet her.

"You [7.30] were able to understand that it was something that could only be done for a couple of hours, a very short period of time, because of issues to do with my children," Ms Gobbo said.

Ms Gobbo said the commission has not made attempts to hear from her in circumstances that would be possible for her, despite Commissioner McMurdo saying the royal commission could take Ms Gobbo's evidence in two-hour blocks.

"For months and months, it frustrated me. I was manic about it. I couldn't sleep … but over time, that has changed into suicidal thoughts — obviously no suicide action — severe depression, uncontrolled pain … frustration at the idea or the prospect that my version or even the details of some things are just going to be swept under the rug," Ms Gobbo said.

Ms Gobbo gave her interview to 7.30 before the commissioner compelled her to give evidence next year, but Ms Gobbo has confirmed to 7.30 her position remains the same.

In response to 7.30's questions, a spokeswoman for the royal commission said: "The commission has already received comprehensive notes, documents and records from Ms Gobbo. In addition, it has had several telephone conversations with Ms Gobbo.

"The commission asks that Ms Gobbo now provide clarification on some evidence already before the commission by telephone in short bursts to accommodate her health concerns.

"The commission is also willing to significantly limit the length and nature of Ms Gobbo's cross-examination to accommodate her health concerns.

"Ms Gobbo has been represented at community expense and continues to be represented, throughout the life of this commission at virtually all its hearings by solicitors and by both senior and junior counsel. Whilst Ms Gobbo's lawyers commenced preparing a statement on her behalf, it was not completed."

Legal betrayal

A young Nicola Gobbo. ( Supplied )

The royal commission is examining whether Ms Gobbo breached legal privilege by passing on information to Victoria Police about her clients. The High Court of Australia described Ms Gobbo's conduct as appalling.

Ms Gobbo told 7.30 she believed in the concept of legal privilege, which protects legal advice passed from lawyer to client, but added whether she breached it is now up to the royal commission to unpick.

"I think that's a matter for the royal commission, or I would hope it's a matter for the royal commission. It was certainly an issue that came up from time to time with Victoria Police … But there was no particular moment where they — any police that I was dealing with — said to me: 'No, I'm hanging up the phone now, you can't, you can't talk to me.' It was never that kind of a situation," Ms Gobbo said.

She said some people had a fundamental misunderstanding about what information is and is not protected.

"An analogy is if you came to me and you were charged with murder and you sought my advice in relation to how to achieve the best outcome for yourself, and in the course of talking to me, you told me all about your mate, Bob, who had guns hidden in his house for an armed robbery that he was about to commit: anything you tell me about your murder charge is subject to privilege and the privilege is yours. But anything you tell me about Bob and his guns and his armed robbery is not privileged. It can't be."

When pressed that a client may assume all conversations with their lawyer are private, she replied, "That's not what the law is."

Ms Gobbo went on to say that Victoria Police wanted her to pass everything she learned onto them.

"I had Victoria Police on my back every day, saying to me … 'Don't filter anything, you tell us everything and let us work out what's relevant and what's not relevant. And if you lie to us or you don't tell us things, we will know that you're lying to us.'"

The royal commission has heard Ms Gobbo gave her police handlers thousands of pieces of information from when she was registered as an informer in 2005 to 2009.

She was registered as a police informer previously in 1995 and 1999 but maintains that was done without her knowledge.

Faruk Orman walks free from the Court of Appeal in Melbourne after his murder conviction was quashed on July 26, 2019. ( AAP: David Crosling )

One former client, Faruk Orman, had a murder conviction quashed by the Victorian Court of Appeal earlier this year and was released from jail.

The court ruled Ms Gobbo's involvement had tainted the case.

Some of Ms Gobbo's former clients have appeals against their convictions underway.

Ms Gobbo blames the police.

"If they are released or have their convictions overturned, then Victoria Police have really got themselves to blame. And I'm not trying to say I played no role in doing anything and that I have no responsibility for anything. But ultimately, anything that I did or said or was told to do was with the imprimatur of the Chief Commissioner of Police," Ms Gobbo said.

Ms Gobbo claimed that back when she was practicing, she knew of at least two other lawyers who were Victoria Police informers. She claims one is still practicing, but she declined to name them.

Why she became an informer

Nicola Gobbo with Carl Williams at the christening of Williams's daughter in 2003. ( ABC News )

Ms Gobbo was a fixture in the Melbourne gangland court cases of the early 2000s.

Police have told the royal commission Ms Gobbo socialised with some clients including those on both sides of the gangland war: Carl Williams's crew, and the so-called "Carlton Crew" which included the Moran family.

The royal commission has heard some detectives investigating the gangland murders believed Ms Gobbo became part of her clients' criminal groups.

She told 7.30 she did not see herself as part of their crew, but can see how they would have.

"Using Carl [Williams] as an example … his belief was that he could control who I did and didn't act for, on the basis that I was part of some form of a criminal crew," Ms Gobbo told 7.30.

Ms Gobbo claimed Williams sent gangland hit man Benji Veniamin to threaten her after the lawyer successfully represented rival Lewis Moran at a bail application.

"I don't think it's appropriate [for] anyone [to] control you directly or indirectly as a lawyer … I went from … effectively feeling like I was controlled by one, to being manipulated in a much worse way by a huge organisation that's got more power and is more dangerous than any purported or alleged criminal.

"And I know there will be people who would … hear that comment and say, 'No, Vic Police aren't like that.' But again, I would say look at where I am."

Ms Gobbo said she was also warned about crimes that were going to be committed, which convinced her to talk to police.

"When … people who you are either acting for or who you've — to whom you've been introduced are being shot and or murdered on a weekly basis, and you're being pre-warned about those things taking place, to not do anything when you have that knowledge is something that I morally had an issue with. And that … in part is one explanation for why I assisted the police."

Ms Gobbo said once she began assisting police there was no turning back.

"They made it clear to me that if I didn't continue to assist them and to do what they asked when they asked or, if I held anything back from them, that they would release my name and effectively feed me to the wolves," Ms Gobbo said.

Ms Gobbo denies leaking file that identified Mr Hodson as informer

Christine and Terrence Hodson, who were murdered in their home in Melbourne in 2004.

Ms Gobbo wore a wire in 2008 to record a conversation she had with former detective Paul Dale.

Mr Dale was a suspect in the murders of police informer Terrence Hodson and his wife Christine in 2004.

The couple were found executed in their loungeroom before Mr Hodson was able to give evidence against two detectives, including Mr Dale, in relation to the alleged robbery of a drug house.

The charges were later dropped and Mr Dale maintains he had no involvement in the case.

Gangland boss Carl Williams claimed Mr Dale had asked him to organise the murder of Mr Hodson.

Police charged Mr Dale with murder using information from Williams and Ms Gobbo.

Those charges were dropped after Williams was murdered in jail in 2010.

Ms Gobbo never gave evidence against Mr Dale and went on to sue Victoria Police for failing to protect her identity as a witness.

She declined to go into detail about her relationship with Mr Dale as she is yet to give evidence before the royal commission.

Former detective Paul Dale outside court in in 2013. ( AAP: Julian Smith )

But Ms Gobbo said she had sex with him on one occasion.

"Yes, I did," the former lawyer told 7.30.

Ms Gobbo denied she leaked a file identifying Mr Hodson as an informer to the criminal underworld.

"Ridiculous," she said.

"The whole world knew that he was an informer … the fact of him being a police informer was a matter which was revealed by senior police openly and transparently when they responded to requests for information on behalf of numerous people I acted for. So, the suggestion that it was some tightly held secret is ridiculous," Ms Gobbo said.

When asked by 7.30 if she knew the Hodsons were going to be murdered, Ms Gobbo said, "Absolutely not."

A coroner in 2015 found there was insufficient evidence that Carl Williams or Paul Dale were involved and Mr Dale has always maintained his innocence.

'Knew exactly how to play me'

Nicola Gobbo says growing up, her "greatest fear was disappointing my parents". ( ABC News: Greg Nelson )

Ms Gobbo said she grew up in a loving family of five children in Melbourne's suburbs.

Hard work and education were prized.

"We were often reminded that if we didn't work extremely hard and take advantage of every single opportunity that was made available, we were effectively stealing from our parents," Ms Gobbo said.

"My greatest fear was disappointing my parents."

The mother-of-two described herself as a type-A personality who wanted to be the best at whatever she did.

Nicola Gobbo as a child. ( Supplied )

"Victoria Police most likely knew all of that. They'd done all their homework and knew exactly how to play me."

Ms Gobbo said she suffered a stroke in 2004 at the height of the gangland war.

She said detectives came to visit her as she lay in a high-dependency hospital unit unable to speak.

She said they were there "to pressure me to become an informer".

"I mean what do you say to that? That's cold.

"I look back now and I think … Victoria Police, you know, in a way manipulated me or stood back and allowed me to be, or helped me be manipulated into that position. I'm not saying I don't bear some responsibility at all … I don't want to come across as saying that. But I think … knowing what I know now about their tactics and about obviously what happened as time went on and, you know, I got played."

Ms Gobbo said police never explicitly threatened to charge her with criminal offences but she said they implied they could.

"One of the pressures at that time, the gangland war period, was police executing search warrants on solicitors' offices, checking money in trust accounts. So I made the assumption that, as a number of lawyers did, that our phones were being unlawfully monitored and that of course … things can be taken out of context. So I think that police, they certainly gave people such as myself the impression that … they had stuff that they would use [against me]," Ms Gobbo said.

'What choice did I have?'

Ms Gobbo's name, family details and image have received worldwide media coverage since a November order from the High Court of Australia saw the lifting of a media suppression order in March this year.

Personal details of the former lawyer's life have been discussed at the royal commission, including her sexual relationships.

The royal commission has heard Ms Gobbo had sexual relationships with four officers, including former detective Paul Dale.

Ms Gobbo said she had not had sexual relationships with clients but declined to go into detail, citing her need to first speak to the royal commission.

Media outlets have reported that she was sexually involved with clients and took drugs with them.

"Absolutely not … primarily because it doesn't — drugs don't interest me. But more particularly because I'm O-negative and I was a blood donor for many years. Your blood is screened and tested for everything. I used to give blood religiously every three months," Ms Gobbo said.

Once a busy and high-profile barrister, Ms Gobbo has been recently described as "the biggest threat to the Victorian legal system" and "persona non grata" in the legal world.

"Some of it's quite hurtful … I think I've been called everything under the sun … and my self-worth and self-belief have been destroyed over the last, particularly over the last 12 months. So, to a degree, it's kind of, I don't want to sound like I don't care, because deep down I do," Ms Gobbo said while crying.

The royal commission has heard an allegation that Ms Gobbo told police she rifled through a fellow barrister's chambers and found phone logs that may have exposed her informing.

Ms Gobbo denied this occurred.

"No. I did not burgle anyone," Ms Gobbo said.

The royal commission has also heard Ms Gobbo could face criminal charges such as obtaining property by deception, regarding charging fees to clients she was informing on.

Ms Gobbo said that prospect was worrying.

"But anything that I did or didn't do was at the behest and control and with the full knowledge and imprimatur of Victoria Police. So, if I did or didn't do something, it was because of them, or at least with their knowledge and with their approval. So, if I'm to be charged, then I suppose we'll be in the dock together," Ms Gobbo said.

7.30 asked Ms Gobbo if she felt guilt or shame for her behaviour.

"My guilt, my overwhelming guilt is for what my children have had to endure," Ms Gobbo said.

Asked if she felt guilt in relation to her clients, Ms Gobbo paused before answering.

"I don't know that guilt is the right word. I'm trying to think of the right way to put it. I suppose if I had my time over, I would do things very differently. But then, on the other hand, I think, what choice did I have in respect of what some people said in front of me?

"Morally and ethically, I felt like I had no choice," she said.

7.30 does not know where Ms Gobbo lives. She insisted on meeting in a neutral overseas location and never disclosed her current whereabouts.

Watch 7.30's exclusive interview with Nicola Gobbo on iview.

Credits:

Reporters: Josie Taylor and Rachael Brown

7.30 producer: Chris Gillett

Photographer: Greg Nelson