Throughout her interview with former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis on Thursday, MSNBC anchor Andrea Mitchell repeatedly urged him to criticize Trump. After Mattis refused to do so, Mitchell lectured: “Do you fear that you might be normalizing the decisions of this president because you are so critical of his predecessors?”

Early in the nearly 30-minute interview, Mitchell fretted: “Aren’t our alliances now weaker than they were when you took office?...in the last two and a half years, we’ve seen our alliances weakened in NATO. Certainly in Asia and in Europe.” Mattis pushed back: “I think we’re into the fourth straight year or fifth straight year of the nations, almost all of them, increasing their defense budget. So I could quantitatively NATO’s actually stronger today.”

Minutes later, she tried to force the former Trump cabinet official to denounce the administration for plans to use Defense Department funding to build the southern U.S. border wall:

We’ve now got – our reporting is that 127 military projects that were supposed to be underway and also including daycare centers. Daycare centers at Joint Base Andrews are having the money that was appropriated by Congress taken away to, quote, “build the war.” How is that appropriate? I mean, it’s taking money away from military families....So aren’t you creating a new problem when you spend money, billions of dollars to build a wall that arguably isn’t needed to fulfill a campaign promise and take money away from daycare for military families?

Mattis resisted entering the political fray: “Yeah, Andrea, having left the administration and laid out in writing and straightforward manner with the President, before I left, that I was leaving on policy differences, I believe in an old French saying of ‘devoir de réserve,’ a period of silence.”

Mitchell scoffed: “I know you don’t want to discuss it, but I know you care about the troops and their families.” Mattis corrected her: “Well, we all care about the troops. And I think that’s true about Republicans, Democrats, that’s true about the White House and the executive – and the legislative branch.”

Seeming to abandon her efforts to get Mattis to become a Trump critic, Mitchell turned to the retired Marine Corps general’s new book on leadership, Call Sign Chaos: “But moving on to leadership and reading. You have an entire appendix devoted to your reading list.” However, only seconds later she sneered: “What does it say about a chief executive who does not read?” She quickly added: “I’m just speaking hypothetically.”

Mattis wasn’t buying it: “Andrea, I’m going to frustrate you here. I’m not gonna comment – ” Mitchell insisted she wasn’t talking about Trump: “No, I’m not asking about him. I’m not asking you about the importance of reading for a CEO, for a chief executive, for a commander.” On that premise, Mattis responded in part:

This is what I learned along the way. Plus, the Marine Corps, at every rank when you get promoted, gives you a new reading list. You know, sergeants get a reading list. Majors get a reading list when they make major. And generals, when you make general, you’re handed a new list of books you’ve got to go read. You’re not considered complete.

Mitchell then made a snide, thinly-veiled reference to the President: “Maybe someone should give one to a commander-in-chief, starting with Call Sign Chaos.”

Wrapping up the discussion, Mitchell worried that Mattis was too critical of President Obama in the book while not going after Trump:

And just finally, you’re taking some criticism because you’re so critical of President Obama and his decisions, Joe Biden’s decisions, George W. Bush, in fact, in Iraq and elsewhere, that you are reluctant to deal with what happened in this – what is happening in this administration. Do you fear that you might be normalizing the decisions of this president because you are so critical of his predecessors?

Mattis dismissed her concerns: “Yeah, I don’t think one person can normalize anything. Right now I’ve got a lot of faith in the American people to draw their own conclusions.”

Mitchell’s sentiment echoed a Wednesday interview with Mattis on Morning Joe, where co-host Mika Brzezinski implored: “At what point, when is it time to stand up and speak to what is happening?...And at what point is it important to say something or become part of the problem?”

Here are excerpts of Mitchell’s lengthy September 5 interview with Mattis: