What were they thinking?

Source: Tumblr

Marvel editor and the next Israel Kamakawiwoʻole, Jordan D. White answered a Tumblr question recently in regards to Marvel's use of Hydra in marketing campaigns and making Captain America into a Hydra agent. User darqueloaf asked:

Hi Jordan. I've been hearing some disturbing things about the way Marvel is using Hydra to market their books (trying to get comic store employees to dress as Hydra agents, retconning Cap and Magneto to be Hydra) and it's seeming that as fictional as Hydra is, actual white supremacists are loving this marketing, and using it to celebrate their bigotry. Idk what power, if any, you have over this, but as a queer long time fan, I really hope it ends soon.

White posted a lengthy response, which we'll analyze below. Let's break it up to digest this a little better.

Thanks for expressing your concern to me. First off, I do always like to say that you are entitled to your own opinion. I am not trying to negate your feelings–they are yours and no one can take that from you. But you wrote to me, so I am going to do what I can to answer/explain from my point of view.

This is from the point of view of a ukelele player first and Marvel editor second. White starts off by acknowledging the feelings of a Marvel fan and reader. This is quite confusing because Marvel editors almost never do that. Instead, Marvel editors blame other and decry news sources as fake news, but from what we've seen so far from White is that he's giving a genuine response.

There are a few things in your ask that ring of the telephone game. There are sites out there that are taking the story and the facts and spinning them into different meanings than intended, and then THOSE stories are getting more play than the actual facts of what is happening.

There's those Marvel talking points. I'm glad White is taking this time to clear the air of any inconsistencies reported by comics news websites.

I don't believe Marvel is asking employees to dress as Hydra agents...I think they were offering them T-Shirts with the Hydra logo on them. Hydra are the villains in this story, they are a big part of it, so promoting them makes sense, to me. Again–I edit the Darth Vader books, which are about a traitorous murderer who works for an oppressive fascist regime that literally blew up multiple planets. He's the main character of the series, but I hope it's clear you're not meant to emulate him.

It's true that Marvel isn't asking employees to dress as Hydra agents. They aren't giving out green and yellow jumpsuits. They were offering them T-Shirts with the Hydra logo, the organization with links to Nazism.

Touching on Darth Vader, there is quite a lot of merchandise for sale trying to get you into him, but the Sith are not in allegiance with a real life organization that targets Jews, gays, and other minorities in a march for white supremacy.

I don't believe there is any comic where Magneto joins Hydra.

While it isn't revealed if Magneto has joined Hydra yet, promotional material says otherwise.

Now...I have not heard anything about actual white supremacists using Hydra to celebrate their own beliefs. If this is actually true...yeah, of course, that is horrible. It also makes them pretty foolish, because again...it's pretty clear to me Hydra are the bad guys in this story. The story judges them harshly and invites the reader to do so as well. So...to point to them and hold them up as your ideal is a poor choice for a lot of reasons...not the least of which is that the good guys tend to win in comics, the vast majority of the time.

Unfortunately, good and evil is all just a point of view, and if you disagree, just ignore that self-proclaimed white supremacist that's excited for the Hydra shirts.

Darqueloaf responded:

Because there is definitely no difference between Hydra and The Empire. Nope. One of these is definitely not linked to an organisation that killed millions of actual people, nosiree.

White responded again:

I get what you're saying, of course.

So, response over, right? Kidding.

I would argue that there is no real world connection between Hydra and the Nazis. It's a connection that only exists in the make-believe fantasy adventure stories in comic books. There is no real Hydra to make a deal with the real life people who did the real life things that we all condemn.

But comics exist in the real-world. There's a connection between Hydra and the Nazis, that's existed in the real-world for decades. Besides, both are ideas, and the normalizing of this idea, through synchronizing an American icon with the ideals of Nazism, is what has people concerned.



There's plenty of reasons the argument the Hydra isn't real negates concerns is stupid, but we'll address that logic again a little later.

So the problem is with a fictional history.

A real fictional history.

To counter that, Marvel has said "The fictional history has changed–that part that people have a problem with is no longer true," and the critics are denying that, pointing back to earlier fictions. But the idea that Hydra is thousands of years old is just as true as the idea that they worked with the Nazis...because both are false, Hydra is not real.

Well, they're not both false. They're both real.

If the problem is that they were EVER associated with a real life group as reprehensible as the Nazis...then, I don't know what to tell you, that makes it sound like the problem is the choice that they made in the 70s to begin writing stories about Hydra that connected with Nazis. You're right–it is a questionable thing to write the perpetrators of one of the worst atrocities in all of history into a family adventure series...but it was a choice made many decades ago. They appeared in Marvel comics just as they did in Indiana Jones and lots of other pop culture adventure stories.

There we go! Blame the writers in the '70s: Stan Lee, Archie Goodwin, and Steve Englehart.



If anything, one would think the use of Hydra would be an effort to DISTANCE what should be relatively innocent entertainments from something so terrible as the Holocaust. To NOT force people to think about the most horrific events of the past 100 years when they read a comic, but still deal with something that feels palpable and has stakes.

That's right. Using Hydra, an association with ties to the Nazi, should distance people from the Holocaust.

And again, it's very important to state–Hydra are bad guys in Marvel Comics. Stories with them in it are not Civil War style "both sides have their merits" type stories. Hydra is wrong, full stop. The stories judge them harshly and encourage the readers to do the same.

We agree on that, but if Hydra is so evil why is Marvel pushing for readers to be so infatuated with them by promoting Hydra apparel and turning Captain America into a Hydra?

And again–I am sure I am not changing anyone's mind by writing this...and that is fine. Every reader (or potential reader) is entitled to their own opinion and interpretation of the stories and ideas. I am just telling you my point of view on the story and matter at hand.



White later responded to an anonymous question on Tumblr.

If Cap comics are just silly mindless entertainment, then having a silly twist isn't really offensive and people are overreacting. But if Cap's supposed to be a character we're emotionally invested in, if he's a broader symbol of what's good about America, democracy & freedom, then I do think it's kind of hurtful to take that hero away & turn him into a fictionalized version of a Nazi, even if they're saying Hydra is bad within the comic. Problem is, doesn't Marvel prefer the latter to be true?

This pretty much dismantles White's argument that you shouldn't be concerned because Hydra is fake by exposing the paradox. Either Marvel's books are meaningless (devaluing any event Marvel tries to push as groundbreaking) or the books and thus their characters matter, making the hell turn concerning for fans.



Again, White posted a lengthy response, so we'll break it up.

I agree that we want you to be emotionally invested in the characters, and even that Cap is a broader symbol of what's good about America. The part I disagree with is the idea that putting the hero/symbol in the worst possible place is a bad thing.

Even though Cap represents the best of America, White thinks that making him a Hydra agent isn't a bad thing.

All this is focused on Captain America, who is a natural symbol for a lot of big American ideals. I've compared this story in the past to Superior Spider-Man, and people have argued that they don't think it's the same thing because of what Cap represents. Well...I disagree, for myself at least.

All this is focused on Captain America, so let's shift that focus to the less comparable Spider-Man.

Spider-Man is a really important character, to me. I have said before that Spider-Man is my religion, and I really believe that with all my heart. I am a die-hard Atheist and I do not believe in or support religion. But all the good things people have told me they have gotten from religion in their lives? I got all of those things from Spider-Man. Morality, community, a way of looking at life...the idea that you need to try to do what's right even if it's to your own detriment, that you don't do what's right because it's easy, you do it because it's right and you might even suffer for it...all that is a big part of my personal belief system, and I think SO MUCH of that is rooted in Peter Parker and his trials and tribulations.

So wait, there is no problem with Cap aligning himself with discrimination and genocide because Hydra isn't real so there is nothing bad in real life, but White claims his ideologies are shaped by the ideas of a fake character. So if it is acceptable to make a comic book character and their ideologies your religion, why is it not concerning if one of those characters people have supported aligns with Nazis? White's dismissive attitude towards fictional beings only holds weight if he himself treats the characters as fictional and disregards their ideologies. He clearly does not if Spider-Man is his "religion." Ergo, White is a contradiction of his own argument. Sure White may have used moral discretion in selecting the ideologies he practices, but not everyone does. Just look at the Nazis who have become synonymous with Hydra, whether Marvel likes it or not.