“And eBay's reaction was to put out a press release saying: ‘Free is not a business model.’ But in fact, we knew that because we were getting so many people onto Taobao because we were free in the early days. Ultimately, we could make money,” Erisman said.

There was talk of a partnership with eBay, but then Ma shocked the business world by doing a deal with Yahoo in 2005, where the American company invested $1 billion in Alibaba. But ultimately, it didn’t work, Erisman said. “The underlying politics of the two countries were sort of destined to rip the companies apart. You can't have a U.S. company like Yahoo that reports up to a sort of a Western set of ideals, really partnering on an equal basis with a Chinese company that has to conform to the Chinese political regulations.” There was also a dispute with Yahoo in 2011 when it accused Ma of transferring ownership of Alipay to his own entity, without telling shareholders.

After Verizon’s acquisition of Yahoo completed in June 2017, Yahoo renamed its remaining assets — including its stake in Alibaba — Altaba.

Alibaba also has an advantage because of huge U.S. tech companies including Google and Facebook being blocked in China (although both are said to be hoping to enter the country next year), but the Chinese government is also a threat to its own business people. Anbang Insurance Chairman Wu Xiaohui was said to be “detained,” in June, possibly due to his links with the U.S. Is that something Ma is concerned about?

“Well, I think, as businesspeople, me, I do everything to make sure that I'm (keeping) my customers happy, employees happy, the society is good. It's healthy. Social responsibility is the key. Whatever we do, we try to make sure that the society is good. So I don't know what's going on with the others,” he told “The Brave Ones.”

Ma talks about three things “you should not touch”: money, power and glory. “If you keep the power in your office, you will be in trouble. If you keep the money in your own pocket, you will be in trouble. If you put the glory in your hand, you will be in trouble. So when you have the money, spend the money supporting more people. When you are in power, empower the others. When the glory, (make sure) the other people have that. Then you will be happy.”