NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts #1



Immediately following the release of LotV, it was natural for some of those thought processes to linger. Strategies developed quickly and each matchup felt different as each significant discovery was made. Blizzard had stated that they planned to continue to make changes and you wanted to continue to be a partner in the process.



But now we're in the thick of the competitive season. The Winter Championship has been played and the Spring Championship is coming soon. And yet you're still trying to rewrite the rules of the game. Focus on your job. There's no unique suggestion you can make to the SC2 dev team that'll be more valuable to the scene than you playing really well. It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. The game is more fun to watch the better the players are.



But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.



The game is not that bad. You are.



Get good.



During the Legacy of the Void beta, it was understandable for every pro who had not qualified for Blizzcon to become a part-time game designer. Huge decisions were being made about the future of competitive SC2 and Blizzard wanted your help. There weren't a lot of competitions going on so a shift in your priorities was an easy decision.Immediately following the release of LotV, it was natural for some of those thought processes to linger. Strategies developed quickly and each matchup felt different as each significant discovery was made. Blizzard had stated that they planned to continue to make changes and you wanted to continue to be a partner in the process.But now we're in the thick of the competitive season. The Winter Championship has been played and the Spring Championship is coming soon. And yet you're still trying to rewrite the rules of the game. Focus on your job. There's no unique suggestion you can make to the SC2 dev team that'll be more valuable to the scene than you playing really well. It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. The game is more fun to watch the better the players are.But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.The game is not that bad. You are.Get good. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

Topher_Doll Profile Joined August 2015 United States 76 Posts #2 Wow great post Tyler and good points, while it's easy to focus on design and balance all the time, I think foreigners should realize that a repeat of Lilbow in 2015 would kind of be the deathcall of this "automatic foreigners at Blizzcon" model. And to be fair, it's likely Hydra and possibly viOLet will earn spots so it won't be 8 foreigners but even 5 foreigners getting abused by Koreans would be a sad end to the year. I'm a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

SC2FeaR Profile Joined January 2016 5 Posts #3



User was temp banned for this post. woah still trying to stay relevant somehow?

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts #4 On March 20 2016 00:44 SC2FeaR wrote:

woah still trying to stay relevant somehow?

I didn't include myself in this post at all? I said "you" progamers. I didn't talk about my personal experience at all. I made some judgments that anyone can evaluate themselves. I don't know what this has to do with me at all. Your suggestion that it does is the most irrelevant thing in this thread so far. So if you value authentic relevance maybe you should give your opinion on whether the non-Korean players could be better, whether thinking of the game as something that can be rewritten is something that's good for a competitive mindset, and whether a non-Korean progamer has a better chance of improving things by performing well or by giving professional game developers suggestions on how to do their job. The ideas don't need a name attached to them and if you've got a problem with my name being attached to them, then maybe your strategy should be to NOT draw attention to it. I didn't include myself in this post at all? I said "you" progamers. I didn't talk about my personal experience at all. I made some judgments that anyone can evaluate themselves. I don't know what this has to do with me at all. Your suggestion that it does is the most irrelevant thing in this thread so far. So if you value authentic relevance maybe you should give your opinion on whether the non-Korean players could be better, whether thinking of the game as something that can be rewritten is something that's good for a competitive mindset, and whether a non-Korean progamer has a better chance of improving things by performing well or by giving professional game developers suggestions on how to do their job. The ideas don't need a name attached to them and if you've got a problem with my name being attached to them, then maybe your strategy should be to NOT draw attention to it. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

pique Profile Joined August 2011 126 Posts #5 get em tyler

Espers Profile Joined August 2009 United Kingdom 604 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 18:22:37 #6 Yeah because the best Koreans don't complain about or suggest changes for the game, right. It's therapeutic to vent about balance and ask for changes and doing so has absolutely no correlation to the work ethic of the player, this is nonsense. I saw Flash ask for 2 supply Tank on Live on Three, lol.

JimmyJRaynor Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 14068 Posts #7



thx for taking the time to create this blog. On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:

But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.

The game is not that bad. You are.

Get good.



grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.



the only time a foreign pro will have a legit shot at becoming world champ is if he or she does like grrrr did more than a decade ago.



your thoughts? grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.the only time a foreign pro will have a legit shot at becoming world champ is if he or she does like grrrr did more than a decade ago.your thoughts? Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"

Weird Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 796 Posts #8 What?!?



You mean to tell me that part of being a "pro-gamer" isn't making cry cry balance posts on bnet forums?!?

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 19:16:33 #9 On March 20 2016 03:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote:

thx for taking the time to create this blog.



Show nested quote +

On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:

But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.

The game is not that bad. You are.

Get good.



grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.



the only time a foreign pro will have a legit shot at becoming world champ is if he or she does like grrrr did more than a decade ago.



your thoughts? thx for taking the time to create this blog.grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.the only time a foreign pro will have a legit shot at becoming world champ is if he or she does like grrrr did more than a decade ago.your thoughts?

Doesn't seem necessary to me at all. It's such an abstract idea though that I'm not even sure how to respond to it. SC is primarily a game of skills. You increase your win rate by improving those skills. The best players in the world (the best Koreans) perform the skills of the game consistently at a high level, so that it's not often that a game is thrown because anything was done particularly poorly, and they are also pushing the limits on how good a player can get at these skills, so sometimes they give themselves a victory just by being so unexpectedly good at a particular thing.



I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that the way the Koreans play is the only way to get consistently good at these skills and to keep pushing the limits because I don't see any particular reason why that'd be true. Every country has produced amazing results in other disciplines. No reason to abandon the culture you're used to because you think it can't produce results. There are certainly many people doing incredible things across all kinds disciplines and cultures. Also, I'm not convinced that the way Koreans practice esports even is optimal. They are, of course, dominant. They've accomplished amazing things. But I don't think their culture has happened upon the perfect way to be a progamer.



I do think that there are problems in some pockets of non-Korean esports culture. But to make it a national thing is wrong. An American looking to break through to the next level can look to other Americans in other disciplines to see how someone from their own culture becomes a dominant competitor. There's no shortage of inspiration for America nor for most countries. Study what the Koreans do and assimilate it into your own regimen if you think it's valuable... but assimilate yourself to their culture? Extraneous imo. Doesn't seem necessary to me at all. It's such an abstract idea though that I'm not even sure how to respond to it. SC is primarily a game of skills. You increase your win rate by improving those skills. The best players in the world (the best Koreans) perform the skills of the game consistently at a high level, so that it's not often that a game is thrown because anything was done particularly poorly, and they are also pushing the limits on how good a player can get at these skills, so sometimes they give themselves a victory just by being so unexpectedly good at a particular thing.I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that the way the Koreans play is the only way to get consistently good at these skills and to keep pushing the limits because I don't see any particular reason why that'd be true. Every country has produced amazing results in other disciplines. No reason to abandon the culture you're used to because you think it can't produce results. There are certainly many people doing incredible things across all kinds disciplines and cultures. Also, I'm not convinced that the way Koreans practice esports even is optimal. They are, of course, dominant. They've accomplished amazing things. But I don't think their culture has happened upon the perfect way to be a progamer.I do think that there are problems in some pockets of non-Korean esports culture. But to make it a national thing is wrong. An American looking to break through to the next level can look to other Americans in other disciplines to see how someone from their own culture becomes a dominant competitor. There's no shortage of inspiration for America nor for most countries. Study what the Koreans do and assimilate it into your own regimen if you think it's valuable... but assimilate yourself to their culture? Extraneous imo. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

JimmyJRaynor Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 14068 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 19:40:30 #10 on one level being the best basketball player in the world has nothing to do with speaking english and living in the USA.



all the best coaches and players play in United States ( and Toronto ) and speak english with each other. Therefore, if a non-American player hopes to be the best in the world learning to speak english and assimilate with the culture of the best players is necessary.



i think Starcraft is the same way.



is it theoretically possible for the best basketball player in the world to never play in the NCAA and NBA and not speak english? yes, its theoretically possible. it is very unlikely.



Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"

NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 20:22:49 #11 But there's no teamwork or coaching in SC. You never have to speak a word of any language to become the best SC player in the world. And you've already boiled down your culture assimilation thing to just (1) surround yourself with other talented SC players/analysts and (2) be able to communicate with those people. There's a lot more to culture than that. Certainly the web of relationships between such a group of people will establish some kind of culture itself. But it wouldn't require an individual to adapt Korean culture specifically.



edit: And before you say the Koreans actually have coaches, they really don't. The player is on his own once the game starts. The coaches are more like trainers and managers. They help you train and prepare but once the game starts, there's no coaching going on. They make decisions for team leagues so they kind of play a meta game against the other coaches but that's irrelevant to player skill.



I think that having discussions with players and analysts can be beneficial but not necessary. So many games are played that you only have to watch the games themselves to see a true statement about the game itself rather than listen to words of other players to learn truths about the game. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

Hider Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Denmark 8554 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 20:37:15 #12 On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:

During the Legacy of the Void beta, it was understandable for every pro who had not qualified for Blizzcon to become a part-time game designer. Huge decisions were being made about the future of competitive SC2 and Blizzard wanted your help. There weren't a lot of competitions going on so a shift in your priorities was an easy decision.



Immediately following the release of LotV, it was natural for some of those thought processes to linger. Strategies developed quickly and each matchup felt different as each significant discovery was made. Blizzard had stated that they planned to continue to make changes and you wanted to continue to be a partner in the process.



But now we're in the thick of the competitive season. The Winter Championship has been played and the Spring Championship is coming soon. And yet you're still trying to rewrite the rules of the game. Focus on your job. There's no unique suggestion you can make to the SC2 dev team that'll be more valuable to the scene than you playing really well. It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. The game is more fun to watch the better the players are.



But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.



The game is not that bad. You are.



Get good.



What about doing your own job? I don't think you get paid to write posts that insult progamers on TL. Hence you are not doing your job when making suggesting towards how other should behave. But pro gamers aren't allowed to make suggestions in their own time? They need to play the game 24/7 and never take any breaks to write suggestions?



Sick double standard.

What about doing your own job? I don't think you get paid to write posts that insult progamers on TL. Hence you are not doing your job when making suggesting towards how other should behave. But pro gamers aren't allowed to make suggestions in their own time? They need to play the game 24/7 and never take any breaks to write suggestions?Sick double standard. Innovation was a better player in 2013 than Byun in 2016.

JimmyJRaynor Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 14068 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 21:33:02 #13 i'm not boiling it down to 1 thing.

learning how to speak english is a necessary but insufficient condition to becoming the best basketball player in the world.



the 1v1 game is played in isolation. however, getting better at Starcraft is a team effort. same with getting better at basketball.



hitting a baseball is an individual pursuit. you won't become the best hitter in the world if you can not communicate with the best batting coaches and best hitters in the world. and also you must be tested by the best pitching.



any MLB player with 3,000 hits can talk about hitting for hours and hours and will explain that their evolution as a hitter involved input from many excellent coaches. none of the coaches ever step in the batters box and swing at a pitch for them though. Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"

HewTheTitan Profile Joined February 2015 Canada 321 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 21:23:18 #14 On March 20 2016 00:44 SC2FeaR wrote:

woah still trying to stay relevant somehow?



User was temp banned for this post.



Temp banned for sassing a guy who insulted half the pro scene? I think Nony asked for some counter swings, no? Temp banned for sassing a guy who insulted half the pro scene? I think Nony asked for some counter swings, no?

Chubz Profile Joined March 2011 France 119 Posts #15 if only you applied your own advice for yourself

Empirimancer Profile Joined July 2011 Canada 1023 Posts #16 You're acting like criticizing the balance team and putting forth design ideas somehow takes significant time away from practice and therefore, if pros stop talking about balance, they'll get better at the game. That's silly.





sabas123 Profile Blog Joined December 2010 Netherlands 3020 Posts #17 On March 20 2016 03:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote:

thx for taking the time to create this blog.



Show nested quote +

On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:

But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.

The game is not that bad. You are.

Get good.



grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.



thx for taking the time to create this blog.grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.

AFAIK he didn't really learn to speak korean on a basic level years after he was irrelevant, plus on one of the talkshows he did he was famous for having bad korean.



AFAIK he didn't really learn to speak korean on a basic level years after he was irrelevant, plus on one of the talkshows he did he was famous for having bad korean. The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.

Jakamakala Profile Joined July 2011 United States 115 Posts #18 Just be like avilo. The guy has been trying to save the game and its spot in the e-sports team for years now. He tries to play his best all the time, constructively analyzes his play, and goes out of his way to also weed out hackers and cheaters. This is all in addition to him providing meaningful and well thought out suggestions to the devs on the official battle.net forums. Our role model and answers are right in front of us guys, we just need to listen to him.



NonY Profile Blog Joined June 2007 8352 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-19 22:28:33 #19 On March 20 2016 06:53 Empirimancer wrote:

You're acting like criticizing the balance team and putting forth design ideas somehow takes significant time away from practice and therefore, if pros stop talking about balance, they'll get better at the game. That's silly.





It has nothing to do with time. How did I act like that? I said "focus" but didn't mention anything about time management. It's a matter of mindset and attitude and focus.



On March 20 2016 06:50 Chubz wrote:

if only you applied your own advice for yourself if only you applied your own advice for yourself

When I was good at BW, it never crossed my mind for a second that the rules of the game were going to be changed. When WCG or TSL or KeSPA announced the maps that we were gonna play on, we just accepted them and did what we could to maximize our chance to win. And to even think of Blizzard doing a balance patch would have been absurd.



As for SC2, I did try to play both roles to some extent, as a "personality" who commented on things and as a player. I agree with you that this would have been good advice for me. But knowing personally how I was different at the time of my success in BW from how I was at the time of my failures in SC2, I'm sure that this advice would not have been enough to help me. It wasn't the main thing tripping me up. Is it the main thing tripping up some of the top talent right now? I don't think it's exactly it, but it's a symptom of the bad mindset of the scene, which definitely isn't competitive enough and is not right for getting everyone to play the best they can. Maybe staying focused on a problem-solving and winrate-improving mindset will help some players. Maybe having someone like me tell them they suck will spur them on to prove me wrong. Motivation works in weird ways. I'm sure someone wants to go outplay Zest and then bring this up, even though I'm nobody and it doesn't really matter that I doubted them. It has nothing to do with time. How did I act like that? I said "focus" but didn't mention anything about time management. It's a matter of mindset and attitude and focus.When I was good at BW, it never crossed my mind for a second that the rules of the game were going to be changed. When WCG or TSL or KeSPA announced the maps that we were gonna play on, we just accepted them and did what we could to maximize our chance to win. And to even think of Blizzard doing a balance patch would have been absurd.As for SC2, I did try to play both roles to some extent, as a "personality" who commented on things and as a player. I agree with you that this would have been good advice for me. But knowing personally how I was different at the time of my success in BW from how I was at the time of my failures in SC2, I'm sure that this advice would not have been enough to help me. It wasn't the main thing tripping me up. Is it the main thing tripping up some of the top talent right now? I don't think it's exactly it, but it's a symptom of the bad mindset of the scene, which definitely isn't competitive enough and is not right for getting everyone to play the best they can. Maybe staying focused on a problem-solving and winrate-improving mindset will help some players. Maybe having someone like me tell them they suck will spur them on to prove me wrong. Motivation works in weird ways. I'm sure someone wants to go outplay Zest and then bring this up, even though I'm nobody and it doesn't really matter that I doubted them. "Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'

jalstar Profile Blog Joined September 2009 United States 8122 Posts #20 On March 20 2016 06:55 sabas123 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 20 2016 03:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote:

thx for taking the time to create this blog.



On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:

But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.

The game is not that bad. You are.

Get good.



grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.



thx for taking the time to create this blog.grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world.

AFAIK he didn't really learn to speak korean on a basic level years after he was irrelevant, plus on one of the talkshows he did he was famous for having bad korean.



AFAIK he didn't really learn to speak korean on a basic level years after he was irrelevant, plus on one of the talkshows he did he was famous for having bad korean.



The pre-2001 foreigner scene is really poorly documented but from what I've read it was as good or better than the Korean scene and grrr was not the only foreigner who could have won an OSL. If he did speak Korean in 2000 there's no record of it. The pre-2001 foreigner scene is really poorly documented but from what I've read it was as good or better than the Korean scene and grrr was not the only foreigner who could have won an OSL. If he did speak Korean in 2000 there's no record of it.

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