So originally, this was going to be about Kylo Ren.

I was going to talk about Kylo, and nothing but Kylo, except over the past several months a lot has changed. Star Wars Episode VIII started filming. The Rey Solo theory was debunked, along with Jyn Erso as Rey’s mum. Bloodline dropped. Daisy Ridley and Mark Hamill have proven themselves to be admirable trolls, and leaks have happened, again and again. Even Disney got in on the trolling, to the point where I thought “why bother writing this anymore.” Basically – from official sources – the whole idea of a redemption arc is being treated with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, and it makes writing this essay a lil’ bit redundant. A lot of meta has been posted in the intervening time since I dropped Death and the Maiden too, concerning Kylo Ren. Good meta, from people who are far more invested in this particular story arc than I.

I should also clarify my own personal position on this, so my biases are out in the open. While I’m officially neutral on redemption, for me the story comes first. If a redemption arc is well-executed – without sacrificing the narrative integrity of the story – then I’m happy. If a redemption arc is foisted upon me – regardless of whether or not it makes sense – then my opinion on the subject changes from “officially neutral” to “die-in-a-fire.” Kylo Ren being redeemed is also not a crucial part of the story for me. It’s not key to me liking Star Wars, so there’s that. Honestly I’m pretty chill about the whole thing, nor am I married to the idea, but this question of redemption – of redemption arcs, specifically (whether or not they concern Kylo Ren) – is an important one. It’s something that still needs to be discussed. A lot of people like the idea of redemption in a narrative (myself included), but they don’t necessarily understand what goes into one. This can create problems.

Because redemption hurts. Redemption really hurts, although not necessarily on the psychological level, where you don’t want to say “sorry” for the crimes you’ve committed (although that plays a part in it as well). Redemption hurts on the physical level, in the bodily punishment doled out in relation to your crime. Redemption hurts especially in fiction: in the act of the redemption arc itself. The endings to redemption arcs vary, but they require a certain number of events to happen in a certain sequential order, and the journey towards them is usually filled with pain. This pain can take many forms, and we see this when we look at other redemption arcs, both those that were successful and those that were not.

(Behold: the brooding long-haired bastards, aka the redeemed. Yes, this is a trope.)

This forgiveness-through-suffering is hardwired into the narrative. It’s is an eye-for-an-eye set-up central to the human experience; one where we believe that only through sufficient punishment does the aggressor deserve redemption; that their victims can achieve justice in turn. I’ve seen people argue here and there that we don’t need to see this in a narrative; that writers are being lazy if they go this route, but it’s the furthest thing from the truth. I say it’s the furthest thing from the truth because the evidence for this eye-for-an-eye mentality – the need for it – is everywhere around us, in our real-world society. It’s within a majority of criminal justice systems, specifically prisons: with public shaming, general online nastiness and the need for immediate, voyeuristic vengeance for both real and perceived wrongs. Human beings, at large – regardless of geography or cultural norms – veer towards the belief that redemption is possible, but only if pain is involved. It’s an ideological system that has been around for thousands of years, and it’s why you see it in fiction so predominantly.

So with that in mind – in this essay – I’m going to break down the dynamic of redemption arcs as they appears in fiction, in order to explain why Kylo’s theoretical redemption will probably not be a pleasant one (i.e. if he gets a redemption, this is what you should expect). I should also point out that this meta is not going to be about symbolism, or the history of archetypes and their importance to cultural norms. This meta is gonna be about sausage making, folks: the bare bones mechanics of how to get it done. Nor is this meta based on any school of literary thought, so keep that in mind too. For those of you looking for something as “painstakingly” detailed and theoretically dense as Death and the Maiden, this is not it. I know it’s taken me forever to post this, but that delay was due to work.

Warning: like DatM, this meta is gif heavy. Might not be mobile friendly.



Alright, let’s get this thing started. See the goodies (and yes, a metric ton of spoilers) after the jump.

What do you need for a redemption arc?

Now that we’ve got my long, rambling screed on what this essay is gonna be out of the way, I’m gonna talk about what you need in order to make a redemption arc function: the steps that are required for the arc itself. I’m also going to get technical for a bit, because it’s important to the meta. I’ve actually talked about this before – the mechanics of a redemption – and you can find that post here. In a nutshell the skeleton that holds the redemption arc together is incredibly important: more so than most narrative structures, due to its relative rigidity. It’s also important because it comprises a paint-by-numbers storyline that human beings are immediately receptive to, and very familiar with.

Below you’ll find the core components that you need for a redemption arc, in this order (typically, but I’ll get into that in a bit). I’m going to use Darth Vader as an example of how these steps play out.

How to create a redemption (arc), in layman’s terms

Step 1: The initial crime

The initial crime is the thing that starts the redemption arc rolling: the keystone that drops the antagonist down the Dark Side, so to speak. It’s a catalyst and a turning point in the character’s psyche, where they go from morally grey/doing a couple bad things, to just being bad in general.

If we’re looking at Anakin/Darth Vader, the initial crime would be killing the younglings at the Jedi Temple. More generally, it would be helping Palpatine overthrow The Republic, hurting Padme, and accepting his role as Darth Vader. These are all very serious crimes from which there’s no turning back from (especially the purposeful killing of kids). You can only move forward with the consequences.

Step 2: A worsening of the crime(s)

After the initial crime is committed, there needs to be a worsening of the crimes: a series of repeated behaviors instead of a one-time event. One-time events can be looked at as tragic accidents or mistakes (see: not worthy of redemption, or the suffering that goes into one), whereas a worsening of the crimes shows that the antagonist is fully committed to their role (and therefore deserving of the punishment metered out to them, should they choose to try to redeem themselves).

If we’re using Vader as an example, this “worsening of the crimes” would be committing murder, torture, and the dispossession of property/liberty under Palpatine’s command. You could also argue that helping Palpatine overthrow The Republic, hurting Padme and accepting his role as Darth Vader falls under this category too, rather than the “initial crime” itself. There is some flexibility within a redemption arc, and this is one of those instances.

Step 3: A reckoning

After a worsening of the crimes, the antagonist needs to have a reckoning. They need to come to a revelation about their crimes or be forced to come to a revelation about their crimes, either through circumstances of their own making or another character’s. There needs to be a confrontation to force the antagonist to see their guilt. This confrontation doesn’t necessarily have to be successful – often times, it isn’t – but it has to happen, in order to kick-start the redemption arc into high gear.

If we’re looking at Vader, this reckoning would be coming face to face with Luke: with the personification of his past, his failures (both on a personal and familial level), and all the responsibilities associated with it. It is the all-important “I am your father” moment (seriously, check that link). You could also argue that the final fight between Obi Wan and Anakin on Mustafar is the “reckoning” – honestly it could work either way. Usually, this is the turning point in the narrative.

Step 4: A refusal of that reckoning

After the reckoning comes a refusal of that reckoning – the denying of responsibility or guilt (especially if there’s pain involved). This happens with all redemption arcs, to varying degrees – depending on the severity of the situation and the character’s personality itself – but it does happen, consistently. That’s because to deny guilt is a very human response. Admitting guilt has consequences attached to it. Consequences that most of us would rather avoid (see: rejection, social isolation, monetary fines, prison, torture, death).

If we’re using Darth Vader as an example, his refusal of that reckoning is his attempt to drag Luke over to the Dark Side with him, instead of repenting. It’s in his rejection of Luke’s plea to turn towards the light, OR it’s in his refusal of Obi-wan’s final plea for sanity (depending on which timeline you’re going by).

Step 5: Suffering



After the refusal of that reckoning, suffering is at hand. Sometimes suffering happens throughout the entire redemption arc, but it usually kicks into high gear when the antagonist refuses to acknowledge their guilt. This is the punishment metered out by the writers for the audience’s satisfaction; the pain one deserves for doing something wrong in the mind of the mob (which is what the audience is). If you don’t deliver this suffering, usually there’s a revolt among the readers. The length and method of this suffering also varies, and sometimes it’s psychological as well.



If we’re using Anakin/Vader as an example, getting burnt to a crisp after he refuses Obi-wan’s reckoning is a good example of suffering. Mhmm, taste the BBQ.

Vader constantly angsting for decades after he turns into Vader (dude was seriously full of hate) works as well.

Step 6: Acceptance

After suffering comes an acceptance of guilt. This acceptance is supposed to come about “naturally,” but the subtext of it is that – through punishment – the antagonist is forced to see the “error of their ways.”

It’s all very puritanical. Very dogmatic – but not necessarily religious – and this method of confessing “sins” has been around for a very, very long time. The belief that you can only come to an understanding of guilt through punishment is a very human response, and we see this play out with Darth Vader. We see him coming to terms with his guilt at the very end of the movie after a lifetime of frustration, pent-up rage, and pain, inflicted both on himself and others. Seeing his son being tortured is the breaking point.

Step 7: More Suffering



After the antagonist – soon to be a reformed antagonist – accepts their guilt, more suffering is involved. This is also required, but instead of suffering in order to see the “error” of their ways, suffering is foisted upon the antagonist in order to build up sympathy with the audience.

Human beings are – in general – empathetic creatures, and when we see someone suffering without due cause we feel sympathy for their plight. So the thinking of this narrative goes: the villain has already suffered. They’ve already repented. Why are they being hurt? I feel a connection to this individual that I didn’t before. I see myself in them, being wronged for trying to make right, and I relate. I want them to be forgiven.

So the suffering is there for the audience’s benefit: for them to feel like the redemption of the antagonist has been earned. Again – without it – people tend to riot. Being a writer is a hazardous profession these days, in more ways than one.



With Vader we see this additional suffering when he finally rebels against the Emperor after so long: when he’s attacked and hurt in turn for doing so. Again, the timing/length of these events varies, especially in movies.

Step 8: A Selfless Sacrifice/Penance

After all that suffering – after all that repentin’ – the antagonist (soon to be reformed antagonist) needs to make a selfless sacrifice. They need to go all out to win the audience over, to show they are humble and pious and willing to lay down their lives to make amends. Human behavior dictates this. Human behavior is sometimes difficult to depict in written form – there’s a dulling effect due to being unable to see these events represented visually – so you need to ramp up reactions and the consequences to those reactions as a result. This affects the redemption arc, of course, and makes the sacrifices required more extreme. For Darth Vader (our example), this selfless sacrifice would be killing Palpatine and finally rejecting the Dark Side.

There’s not much in this for Vader, besides a clean conscience and saving his son. He doesn’t necessarily have a good life under the Emperor, but at least he’s got status. At least he’s got power (even if that power is mitigated somewhat by Palpatine). If Vader defects (and lives) he doesn’t even have that. A lot could go wrong. Luke may have forgiven him, but the countless others whose lives he’s ruined won’t, and we see this in Bloodline.

There will be punishment for what Vader’s done – severe punishment – so this is not a good trade for him, personally speaking. It’s for this reason that betraying the Emperor and saving Luke are a very good example of a selfless sacrifice.

Step 9: Forgiveness

After committing a selfless sacrifice, forgiveness is finally at hand, from the victim to the aggressor. Finally, the antagonist’s redemption has been “earned.” If we’re using Vader as an example, forgiveness would be the final moment between Vader and Luke: where Vader apologizes (in a roundabout way) and Luke accepts.

THEN, one of two things happens. Either the reformed antagonist gets:

A new life/second chance, if there was ample amount of suffering involved.

Death, if there was no suffering involved, or not enough in relation to the initial crime. Forgiveness doesn’t come free (i.e. the bigger your crime/the more conscious you were of making it, the less likely you are to get out of the story alive).

Some caveats:

These markers are only chronological if you’re telling a linear story (i.e. point A goes to point B, then to C). If you’re telling a non-linear story, these events must still happen in this order, but the manner in which they’re told can be fiddled around with (i.e. suffering can come before the initial crime, etc.) Examples of non-linear storylines would be a narrative that is dependent on flashbacks, memory distortion, or time travel.

The pacing of these markers also varies greatly, depending on the medium and the stories being told. Books tend to have these events evenly paced – there’s a lot of room for them to work with, which is great – but movies are notorious for having these events all over the place, or having the redemption arc happen in the last ten minutes of the movie (most of Vader’s redemption arc was like this). These events can also overlap one another, instead of having clean breaks. So there’s that too.



Those that get redemption arcs are usually victims themselves, or people who were victimized before they went down the path to darkness. If you were a victim of injustice – and then you visit injustice upon others – it’s assumed by the narrative (and by the mob mentality of the readers) that the crime itself, on some level, was “not your fault.” You were made bad by your environment, and as such you can still be saved. You don’t get redemption if you were a bad apple from the start. That said, there are exceptions. Again it’s all very puritanical. Very dogmatic, and the mentality of the readers dictate this.

So these are the steps you need, on a mechanical level. These are the chronological markers that are required to make a redemption arc work. You can see how this formula plays out in almost every redemption arc out there, especially in relation to how we’ll they’re received. Prince Zuko’s redemption (from Avatar The Last Airbender) is pretty much perfect, because it follows this formula exactly and it doesn’t leave anything out. Another notable redemption – Uchiha Sasuke’s (from Naruto) – was extremely divisive. Not because Sasuke didn’t deserve redemption (he did), but because his redemption arc was missing several core components, most notably acceptance and selfless sacrifice/penance. It caused an even bigger rift in the fandom.

Other examples of redemption arcs – Beast from Beauty and the Beast, Baltar from Battlestar Galactica, and yes, Vader from Star Wars, as previously shown – all follow this pattern. Mr. Rochester from Jane Eyre and Bucky Barnes from Marvel’s Cinematic Universe arguably do too (notice how they’re all male? Remind me to talk about the gendering of redemption within fandom at a later date).

I won’t discuss these examples in depth, except to point out this form of narrative (and the path it takes) is very common, and very familiar. Spoilers: all of the arcs are filled with pain. Some of the (redeemed) antagonists die, depending on the severity of the crime involved. Zuko didn’t, though. So I’m going to talk about him before I get to Kylo, because Zuko is important. Especially when we take the context of the former’s redemption into consideration for the latter.

Zuko: Prince of Perfection

Before I get into the ways that Kylo Ren’s theoretical redemption might play out, I want to talk about Zuko. I want to talk about Zuko and Sasuke and Vader himself (albeit briefly), because they’re all really strong examples of redemption arcs, and what can go right (or wrong) within them.

Zuko was lucky as a character. He had writers who understood how redemption arcs work – writers who stayed true to their character’s characterization, and treated him well – and it showed through in Zuko’s wonderfully executed redemption. For those of you who don’t know, Prince Zuko was a main character/initial antagonist in Avatar The Last Airbender. He was the son of Ozai and Ursa, nephew of Iroh, Crown Prince of the Fire Nation and elder brother of Princess Azula. Prince Zuko was this:

Zuko’s backstory is long and in-depth, so I’m not going to get into it too much here. I will point out what’s crucial for the meta however, and in order to do that we’re going to examine which of the redemption arc check-boxes he ticks off, along with the caveats I mentioned above. It’s a thought exercise to explain which this particular narrative arc is so ingrained and commonplace.

The Caveats: A victim of circumstantial birth

So at first glance you wouldn’t consider Zuko to be a victim. He was (eventually) a Firebending master, born into immense privilege as the prince of a dominant, militaristic nation with colonial ambitions. And when we first meet Zuko this lack of victimization is what comes across to the viewers. He’s arrogant and angry and short on patience (all negative traits); he’s obsessed with regaining his honor and he’ll do anything to get the job done, including attacking innocent civilians. He’s a very unsympathetic character.

It’s only later – through flashbacks, supplementary media, and Zuko’s narration itself – that we learn he was a victim as well. Zuko was born into privilege, but privilege doesn’t necessarily protect you from neglectful parents. Zuko’s mother was wonderful but his father was distant, harsh, and arguably abusive (especially when you take the burning of Zuko’s face into consideration). Ozai also disdained Zuko for his younger sister Azula, pitting them against each other. This artificial conflict – spurred on by their father – ended in disaster.

So Zuko created victims, but he was as a victim as well. Many of his foibles come from trauma in childhood, along with familial circumstances and exposure. It implies that Zuko wasn’t a bad apple from the start, which means he meets the basic requirements of deserving a redemption. As you’ll see throughout the meta, this “victim of circumstance” is basically a carte blanche.

Zuko’s Redemption: Dem’ awkward steps towards atonement

Step 1: The initial crime

So as mentioned before, the initial crime is what gets the redemption arc rolling. It’s also what starts the antagonist down the dark side. For Zuko his initial crime would be invading the Water Tribe village, threatening Kanna, beating Sokka (this is debatable, since Sokka charged first), threatening to use Firebending on the villagers and kidnapping Aang in his quest to regain his honor.

This would be considered the initial crime because up until this point, Zuko hasn’t really done anything to be critical of. Sure, he’s obsessive in his quest, and has deep-seated anger issues, but he hasn’t actually committed any crimes anything besides stalk the world from pole to pole, looking for the Avatar. This was probably due (in part) to his uncle Iroh, who was a moderating influence. He was traveling with him at the time.

This initial crime of Zuko’s is important. It’s important because it takes him out of the morally grey “I’m a tortured prince, pity me” territory and marks him clearly as the (initial) antagonist.

Step 2: A worsening of the crime(s)

So after the initial crime is committed, there needs to be a worsening of the crimes: the antagonist basically needs to double-down on their asshattery in order to be worthy of a redemption.

The worsening of Zuko’s crimes (specifically, the events) is debatable, but it can be seen in his invasion of the Kyoshi village in his search for the Avatar, and his burning down of the village. It’s also in his kidnapping of both Aang and Katara multiple times, and attacking Aang’s squad in the Spirit Oasis.

(Side note: I find it incredibly ironic – given the context of TFA and the reylo ship specifically – that Zuko wins this particular fight with Katara by knocking her unconscious against a tree)

Now it’s important to bring up the overall context of ATLA (Avatar The Last Airbender) in relation to Zuko’s actions and why he’s considered the antagonist. ATLA is a kid’s cartoon, so the severity of his crimes and the depiction of them are severely watered down. That said, these events are a worsening. Make no mistake.



Steps 3 and 4: A reckoning, and a refusal of that reckoning

So after the worsening of his crimes, Zuko – in true (redeemed) villain fashion – has a reckoning. This section is gonna be pretty short and it’s not gonna reference one event in particular, because Zuko’s reckoning comes from his uncle Iroh himself.

Iroh is the personification of reckoning in its entirety – constantly forcing Zuko to re-evaluate his actions and his role in the conflict – and it is here that we see the writers of ATLA playing with the structure and the specifics of the redemption arc. Instead of events acting like a keystone, you have a person. And as I mentioned before in the mechanics section of this meta, Iroh’s reckoning doesn’t necessarily have to be successful. For a long time, it isn’t. But this verbal reckoning does happen, again and again, and it’s through Zuko’s uncle that Zuko’s redemption arc is finally kicked into high gear.

Zuko rejects this reckoning in the beginning, however, and because of this refusal suffering is at hand. Punctual and predictable, like clockwork.

Step 5: Suffering

So now we get to the suffering: the punishment metered out on the antagonists for their refusal to accept their guilt. Again, this section won’t be too long, and it doesn’t reference any one event. It’s more abstract, because I think you could make a very good case that Zuko has always been suffering; that he’s constantly being punished for committing crimes by failing at those crimes he commits.



By failing in his quest to capture the Avatar and regain his honor, Zuko is suffering. For Zuko failure is very, very personal and not a good thing. He’s got a bit of a complex about it. By refusing to acknowledge he’s in the wrong, he’s punished with even more failure by the writers, which only increases his internal anguish. It’s a vicious cycle that is exceedingly hard to break.

Step 6: Acceptance

Once the audience and the writer(s) have decided that the antagonist has suffered in sufficient amounts, said antagonist accepts their guilt, and Zuko does. There’s a couple places where you could argue that Zuko comes to an acceptance of guilt, but I would say that Zuko’s acceptance finally comes about when he cuts off ties with his family the first time around; after Azula attacks him and Iroh and they flee to Ba Sing Se.

I mean, you could argue that Zuko’s acceptance happened when he left his family and abandoned the Fire Nation the final time: when he officially joined Aang and helped him defeat his father. And yeah, before this Zuko waffles back and forth on the specifics of allegiance, especially when Azula dangles the promise of fatherly love in front of him by a lure. But even when Zuko betrays Aang and re-joins the Fire Nation, he has serious misgivings about it. He acknowledges that what he’s doing is wrong, so it’s not like he’s coming to an acceptance of guilt right then: he’s just struggling with what he’s done VS what he knows is right.

Step 7: More suffering

Once Zuko accepted his guilt he was in for more suffering, and suffer he did. This is a kid’s cartoon, so the suffering – like everything else – is highly toned down in terms of content. But it did happen.

Zuko suffers in the fact that he goes from prince to pauper after he and his uncle defect, to the point where they’re begging for money and stealing. Zuko has a falling out with Iroh over moralistic ideals and what they need to do in order to survive, which causes him great anguish (an anguish that only increases as the series progresses).



Zuko is ostracized by the people in the Earth Kingdom after he helps them – when it’s revealed that he’s a Firebender – and his suffering is increased when Azula physically attacks them and wounds their uncle Iroh. Still too, Zuko’s suffering is present when he literally collapses with fever due to his internal struggle over his future and destiny, complete with hallucinations. So this is how Zuko suffers, and he suffers a lot. And it is in this period of time – this particular brand of suffering – that the antagonist builds up sympathy with the audience.

Step 8: A Selfless Sacrifice/Penance



We’re starting to reach the end of Zuko’s redemption arc, but as mentioned before in order to achieve true redemption, Zuko needs to commit a selfless sacrifice/penance.

Zuko’s selfless sacrifice is kind of interesting, because he does several smaller ones instead of one really large sacrifice at the end. His first step in a series of steps towards reconciliation is by leaving his family and joining the Avatar’s quest for good. Like I mentioned with Vader, way back in the intro, there’s not much in this decision for Zuko besides a clean conscience. He’s going to be marked as a traitor, cut off from his family, and if he’s captured he’s going to be imprisoned and probably killed. Zuko’s also not really accepted by the opposing side – by the Avatar’s side – because they haven’t forgotten what he’s done, and what he represents. So Zuko keeps on sacrificing.

He makes a selfless sacrifice when he helps Sokka rescue his imprisoned father, Hadoka. He makes a selfless sacrifice when he helps Katara track down the Southern Raiders who killed her mother. Zuko’s final act of selfless sacrifice comes about when he faces off against his sister during the final fight, between the Avatar’s gang and the Fire Nation. During the final fight – while Azula and Zuko are battling – Azula tries to kill Katara in an act of revenge. Zuko takes the hit instead; it knocks him out and almost kills him. It’s only through Katara’s healing that he’s saved.

Steps 9 and 10: Forgiveness, and verdict

Finally we’re reaching the end of Zuko’s redemption arc, and with it the first part of this thought experiment we set out to explore. Now that Zuko has reckoned with his guilt, accepted his guilt, suffered, and committed a selfless sacrifice, the audience and the other characters are finally able to forgive him, and they do.

In this particular instance forgiveness is multi-pronged and stretched out. Katara forgives Zuko after he tracks down her mother’s killer, and Sokka forgives him after he helps rescue his father. But the final culmination of Zuko’s forgiveness comes after the final fight, when Ozai, Azula and the Fire Nation as a whole are defeated. Once this happens the main characters – Aang, Toph, Katara, Sokka, et al – forgive Zuko for his crimes in their entirety. Zuko is subsequently rewarded.

Now because Zuko’s crimes were not severe (in context to what they could have been), and because he suffered continuously, writing mechanics and audience expectations dictate that Zuko lives, and he does. This is how his redemption arc ends: with Zuko fully accepted back into the fold, made ruler of the Fire Nation in an act of Karmic justice against his family – the ones who declared him unfit for the job in the first place.

There is a lot more that happens in the world of ALTA after this, both in supplementary media and the second Avatar TV series The Legend of Korra. We’re not going to get into any of that, because this is where the story of Zuko’s redemption arc ends. Anything afterwards is unimportant to the meta.

So what did we learn from all of this? What was the point of going into all this detail? Basically it was to show how the sausage gets made; that a good redemption arc despite its individual nuances will always conform to the same basic principles that I laid out in the beginning of the meta. This allows us to better predict – in a general sense – what will happen in Star Wars Episode VIII and IX, or at the very least give us an idea on how Kylo’s theoretical redemption might play out (if he gets one).

I mean hell, even bad redemption arcs conform to these same basic standards. Uchiha Sasuke’s redemption is a great example of this – of how things can conform, but still go wrong. So I guess we should talk about him next.

We need to talk about Kevin Sasuke

So I’m not going to get into as much detail about Sasuke as I should. Partially because the sprawling personal history of Uchiha Sasuke is even more massive than Zuko’s, and would require a meta all its own. But this is also due to word count. At this point I’m already past the 5000 word mark, and I really don’t want this meta to be another Death and the Maiden in terms of length. I can already feel people’s eyes beginning to glaze over.

Uchiha Sasuke – the Sasuke - is Kylo Ren on steroids (in terms of anger issues): ultimate trash son and literal walking disaster. Sasuke is basically the headcase to end all headcases (I jest), and the last thing you wanna do is end up on his bad side. But to be honest, this instability and aggression isn’t his fault. Yes Sasuke committed crimes, which he does hold responsibility for – it’s built into the redemption arc – but like Zuko he’s the victim of circumstance. It’s the reason why he’s getting a redemption in the first place.

The Caveats: Scion of madness

So like Zuko, Sasuke was a product of outwardly-privileged but secretly unfortunate circumstances. I’d say his circumstances were even more unfortunate than Zuko’s, because Sasuke was born into an extremely powerful but incredibly aggressive, warlike clan with a propensity for madness. This clan – the Uchiha clan – was essentially under lock and key by their client village while they exhibited “good behavior.” But then said clan – while Sasuke was still a child – tried to stage a coup. Their client village, Konoha – an equally aggressive, militaristic community who liked to hide their militarism behind friendly smiles – got word of this. In truly sadistic fashion, they ordered Sasuke’s beloved older brother Itachi to slaughter their entire family, including Sasuke’s mother and father. Sasuke walked in on this shit. It did not go over well.

So Sasuke was made an orphan and Itachi disappeared, after which the kid spent his key years in childhood development moldering away (alone) on the compound where his family was murdered. He was shoved into the ninja equivalent of cadet school, and there the same people that ordered the slaughter of his family – the oh-so friendly Konoha nins – tried to turn him into a weapon of their choosing. Sasuke was having none of it, so he tried to rebel. This did not go over well either.

While trying to escape, Sasuke got help from a former Konoha nin who was very, VERY thinly coded as a child predator – Orochimaru. After Sasuke broke free of Konoha, he ended up trapped with him for a couple years, working under Orochimaru’s thumb, until he ended up having to kill Mr. Long-Tongue too. Sasuke was then hunted by surrounding client villages as a criminal. Each of these villages either wanted to a) kill him b) imprison him or c) pluck out his eyes for the sharingan, the scarlet letter of his clan’s power and their Achilles’ heel in terms of madness.

So yeah. Dude had shit luck, and is unequivocally a victim of circumstance. He deserves all the forgiveness and compassion he can get. Unfortunately his redemption arc is also kind of sloppy.

Sasuke’s Redemption: Angry, incomplete, and divisive

Step 1: The initial crime

If we’re gonna talk about Sasuke’s initial crime, I wouldn’t actually say it was him rebelling against Konoha and trying to escape. Sasuke had every right to try n’ get the fuck outta dodge, because the way he was being treated – essentially as a walking weapon, passed around from owner to owner – was despicable.

If we’re gonna be nitpicky about where Sasuke dropped the ball, I’d say his initial crime would be attacking Naruto in the Valley of the End. This is the initial crime because Naruto hasn’t really done anything to deserve this kind of violence from Sasuke. Yeah, Naruto is a bit pig-headed, but he’s an orphan like Sasuke, despised and mistrusted by the Elders for a familial situation beyond his control. All he wanted was a friend, along with a family of his choosing – and this is the hand that Naruto extends to him – but Sasuke rejects it, enraged. He attacks him. This incident right here is Sasuke’s fault, and a turning point in his personal narrative.

Step 2: A worsening of the crime(s)

So after the initial crime is committed, a worsening of crimes is required. Unfortunately Sasuke has this in spades, as this worsening of crimes goes on for pretty much the whole series.

In the beginning Sasuke’s behavior could have been seen as a one-time event or a tragic accident, brought on by circumstances beyond his control (aka Konoha). After that however it seemed like Sasuke was determined to cement himself as That Ass You Knew from Highschool,™ because every time people reached out a helping hand – trying to bury the hatchet and give him redemption without prompting – he rebuffed their attempts and doubled down. I should also clarify that the people reaching out to him were usually Naruto, Sakura or Kakashi, all people who cared deeply about him. They were genuinely invested in his personal well-being, so this is an especially dick move to make.

The worsening of Sasuke’s crimes is in him “joining” Akatsuki, and his attack on the Five Kage Summit. It’s also in his repeated acts of violence (both mental and physical) against Sakura and Naruto.

It doesn’t matter if Sasuke was half-hearted about these attempts, or if his former teammates countered with violence in turn: he still committed the acts in full control of his faculties, after they tried to reach common ground. Again, a huge no-no.

The worsening of Sasuke’s crimes can also be seen in his attacks on other nins, unprovoked. His conflict with Killer B immediately comes to mind. Basically it isn’t until bigger antagonists roll along – the triple-threat of Madara, “Tobi” and Kaguya – that Sasuke is usurped for “most consistent, unnecessary source of conflict” in the series.

We could see this sort of narrative with Kylo, by the way – this non-stop barrage of conflict, if no other primary antagonist is introduced to take his place. It’s a definite possibility with his current storyline.

Steps 3 and 4: A reckoning, and a refusal of that reckoning

After a worsening of the crimes the antagonist needs to have a reckoning, followed by a refusal of that reckoning. For Sasuke this happens again and again. Sasuke is probably even more stubborn than Zuko when it comes to acknowledging his own guilt, so for years he refuses to even consider the notion.

Up until now Sasuke’s redemption has been pretty straightforward, in terms of mechanics: it has all the bits it needs to have, and those bits are in the right place. The execution of those bits was sloppy, but they’re still there. However this reckoning never comes to a head. It just keeps on going and going and going, without ever being fully addressed or finding resolution. This began to frustrate the readers, btw – it’s around this time that anti-Sasuke sentiment really began to froth within the fandom – and the redemption narrative started to show its first signs of trouble.

Steps 5, 6 and 7: Suffering, acceptance, and more suffering

So I’m combining these three sections together because I don’t have much to say on them, but also because they kind of blend. Suffering is one thing Kishimoto (the mangaka) got right with Sasuke, in terms of redemption mechanics. Because boy oh boy, the suffering never stops for Sasuke: it’s another continuous cycle of violence that never let up.

Sasuke is a miserable ball of rage, both mentally and physically, day in and day out. There is, however, no acceptance of guilt on Sasuke’s part – at least not sufficient acceptance – and this is where his redemption arc really went off the rails, in terms of how the fandom reacted to it. An acceptance of guilt and trying to atone for your crimes is crucial for redemption, but while Sasuke was all on board with acknowledging the guilt of others, he barely paid any attention to his own.

Steps 8, 9 and 10: A selfish sacrifice, followed by forgiveness and a sweet ass ride

So after all his suffering and acceptance of guilt (an acceptance which never really happened, tbh), Sasuke – in order to be redeemed – needs to make a selfless sacrifice. He does do this, arguably – he joins forces with Naruto in the final battle – but this is a self-serving motive that helps his own cause too. So I would argue that it doesn’t really count. That selfless sacrifice has to be selfless.

By the end of the series the issue of Sasuke’s guilt hasn’t been really addressed by him. It’s definitely been addressed by others in great detail, but Sasuke kinda shoves these details aside as unimportant. So these are two crucial steps within a redemption arc that have to be there, and they’re not. They’re limping towards the finish line. Then Sasuke is forgiven, without these factors in place. Sasuke is not only forgiven, he’s fully accepted back into the fold, marries Sakura, and has a kid.

Cue fandom shitstorm, with half the fandom feeling victorious that their ship was made canon (Naruto ship wars were notoriously vicious) and the other half enraged that Sasuke’s redemption didn’t feel earned.



So Sasuke got a redemption, but it was sloppy and caused a backlash. And I bring up this sloppy execution of a redemption to point out what can go wrong; that if you don’t follow the formula, or miss a few steps, readers have a meltdown. (And because this fandom is infamous for its online behavior, and any comment I make will provoke a reaction: I am not anti-Sasuke. I’m pro-redemption, because the dude deserved it, but the way it was executed leaves much to be desired)

Yes, it’s that ingrained.

So what have we learned from all this? From going over both Zuko and Sasuke’s redemptions in detail, the good and the bad? What do they have to do with Star Wars, or with Kylo Ren’s theoretical redemption? Why should we even care?

Because Zuko and Sasuke’s stories are strong examples of redemption arcs, and the different paths they can take in terms of audience reaction. Not only are they strong examples, they’re current pop culture products and genre-based, which is what Star Wars is too. This makes the three franchises relevant to each other in more ways than one. To be honest I could have prefaced this meta with redemption arcs that came from an earlier time period, just to say look, look. This is a trend that is as old as dirt, and it’s not going away. But that’s not really what I’m going for in this essay. What I am attempting to explain is how redemption arcs are made using modern methods; to strip away the archetypal theorizing that I went on and on about in Death and the Maiden and get back to basics.

Star Wars – despite its history – is a current media product (see: TFA). So if they’re planning on doing a redemption, chances are they’re going to go with this. Because in this particular instance redemption is a mechanics thing, not a symbolism thing. So I think we’ve got to stop viewing it that way, or at the very least we’ve got to start viewing it as both.

I mean I’m guilty of this too, in other capacities; of thinking of Star Wars in highly symbolic terms. I literally wrote a 17k essay on the symbolism between Kylo Ren and Rey, and why this symbolism means they might potentially kiss. I actually did that. “Pages of painstaking theorizing,” The Atlantic described it (in a roundabout way). I agree with you, Spencer. I agree. It takes a certain sort of extra to write about something so niche - in such excruciating detail - for a fandom. I still stand by my work, though. It was necessary at the time and I’m glad it’s out there.

Grandaddy died for your sins: Vader, and the other type of redemption arc

Before I get into what all of this means for Kylo, I want to talk about one last type of redemption arc that’s theoretically possible (and could happen to him). In this particular arc, the antagonist dies for their sins in order to achieve redemption. It happened to Kylo’s granddaddy Vader, so there’s a precedent for it.

Now in this particular redemption style, Steps 1-10 are pretty much the same, albeit with their individual nuances. The only really big change comes at the end: in the reward the antagonist gets for all their suffering. In the mechanics section – after forgiveness – I said there’s one of two possible outcomes for a redeemed antagonist within a redemption arc:

A new life/second chance, if there was ample amount of suffering involved. OR

Death, if there was no suffering involved, or not enough in relation to the initial crime (i.e. the bigger your crime/the more conscious you were of making it, the less likely you are to get out of the story alive).

In this particular style of redemption – in Vader’s redemption specifically – death is the inevitable outcome. I’m not going to go into Vader’s arc here, partially because Star Wars fans are intimately familiar with it, but also because I’ve already discussed it way back in the beginning of the meta. The tl;dr:

Vader had to die because his crimes were too severe. You couldn’t have him suffer in proportion to his crimes – and have him still be worthy of redemption – without death. You would have lost the emotional impact at the end of the trilogy between him and Luke. Without this emotional impact the whole movie would have changed, along with the subtext behind it. The subtext would have gone from okay, you can be redeemed if you show that you understand the error of your ways – even to the point of death – to if I make conciliatory gestures, I can get away with murder. That sort of thing usually sends audiences into a tailspin.

So that’s why in this particular kind of redemption arc, death is the inevitable outcome. And it’s still a possibility for Kylo if he goes too far, too. Crimes that fall under the too far category are big ones, like the murder of children, war crimes, and genocide. Which, you know, does happen in Star Wars (albeit in a very vanilla and watered down ways). I should also note that there’s a certain subset of Star Wars fandom - specifically, a subset here on tumblr - that believes Kylo is already guilty of all these crimes. For those people, I would like to remind you that if these crimes aren’t being directly committed by the character on screen, or alluded to as truth by the other characters in the dialogue, they’re innocent until proven guilty.



You could argue that the slaughter of villagers on Jakku constitutes a war crime - there’s actually a really good meta on it here - but genocide has very specific conditions attached to it (conditions that Kylo has not yet met), and if you’re talking about Starkiller destroying the Hosnian System, Hux and Snoke are technically the ones responsible for this.



That said, we’ve still got two more movies where all this could occur. Again, Vader’s redemption happened within the last bit of the last movie, so we can’t rule this out for Kylo either. So let’s finally move onto him and what we can expect if he gets a redemption arc. It’s what this essay was supposed to be about in the first place.

Kylo Ren, and why you should be prepared for pain

As mentioned in the intro to this meta, I’m not going to speculate on whether Kylo Ren will be redeemed or not. In my opinion it’s still too early in the game; the pieces are in place, but they could easily yank those pieces out from under us. I’m also fine with Kylo Ren’s story going either way, and a redemption is not crucial to me liking Star Wars. I do think it’s fair to talk about the pieces of the puzzle that are already in place however, and what Kylo has going for or against him (if redemption is your thang).

So what do we know?

Kylo is a victim of circumstantial birth

Like Zuko and Sasuke before him, Kylo is born into a privileged life that’s (potentially) not that privileged. I’ve talked about Kylo’s background before in my major meta essays – which you can find here and here – but the tl’dr of it (from what we know) is that Kylo was an only child born into a legacy that was much too big for him. He’s the grandson of Vader, which comes with a whole host of problems, and Snoke’s been “watching” him from a young age, which means something’s up (and not exactly good).

Bloodline does address this a bit, in that it reveals that Kylo was twenty-three when he turned to the dark side (and not a child, like we’d previously assumed). But this info doesn’t actually kill the fact that Kylo’s the victim of circumstance. It just means his situation is far less clear cut than we’d previously assumed, and there’s more culpability for his crimes resting on his shoulders.

The chances of Disney killing off the Skywalker line (for good) are laughable

By this point in time the Skywalker dynasty is as intrinsic to Star Wars as lightsabers, Jedi, Sith and the force. If you killed off the Skywalkers there would probably be riots. People get very attached to their favs and established canon, and while it’s still possible that Kylo Ren becomes the Renperor (another meta for another time), the idea that Disney would kill him off – without having another Skywalker waiting in the wings – is very unlikely. Such a decision would prompt Marvel-making-Cap’-a-Nazi-levels of outrage within the fandom.

I’ve seen many, many people argue that Rey is a Skywalker, past the point of common sense. I know they’ll argue it here too. Unfortunately for these people, the chances of Rey being a Skywalker are astronomically slim. JJ Abrams came out and (accidentally) said it, and Bloodline all but confirmed it. I wrote a meta on this too, which you can find here.



Essentially Rey was abandoned long before everything went to shit for Luke Skywalker. So the only thread Skywalker theorists have left is that Luke was a deadbeat dad who abandoned his daughter on a backwater planet with Unkar Plutt, who’s very thinly coded as a sexual abuser. (And I mean, do you REALLY want to argue that?)

Pablo Hidalgo – keeper of Star Wars canon – also came out and smacked down the naysayers, by saying that Kylo is the Skywalker of the trilogy:

So Kylo is the Skywalker in the franchise’ current iteration, which means he’s worth $$$. This doesn’t mean he’s guaranteed a redemption, however; just that him dying to be redeemed is slim.

Additionally we’ve also seen the first couple steps put in place towards a possible redemption. So if this is Kylo’s narrative, they’ve set it up right so far:

We’ve got the initial crime and a worsening of the crimes (along with a potential reckoning)

Some people pin the initial crime on the downfall of Luke’s academy, but honestly I don’t know if I would go there. We know next to nothing about what happened besides shit went south and never recovered. So it’s hard to make predictions based on this. This might have been Kylo’s initial crime – he could have been responsible for it all – but others could have been involved, too. There might be extenuating circumstances we don’t know about. So I would hold off on labeling this event, at least for a bit.

For now I would say Kylo’s initial crime (in the context of TFA, by itself) is the slaughter of the village on Jakku, along with the killing of Lor San Tekka. The worsening of his crimes would be torturing Poe, kidnapping Rey, attacking Finn, and killing his father Han Solo. Kylo’s attachment to Rey (whether it’s simply through the force or something more) is a potential source of reckoning, i.e. her refusal of him (and her beating him) could be the thing that kickstarts his redemption arc into high gear.

THAT SAID: if we’re looking at the redemption arc within the context of the entire trilogy, and not just TFA, I would say all we’ve really seen is Kylo’s initial crime – the killing of Han Solo – in which case things are going to get much, much worse in Episode VIII before they get better. I mean, either way Kylo’s kind of doomed to suffer (if a redemption arc is where we’re headed), but our heroes – aka Rey and Luke – could be in for a lot of suffering too.

Where do we go from here?

Not very far, to be honest, at least not yet. I’ve talked in great depth about how redemption arcs work, on a mechanical level, and what to expect from them – the sausage making that gets done behind the scenes. But until Episode VIII drops, this is (mostly) speculation. Right now, with the info we’ve been given, Kylo Ren’s narrative could honestly go either way.

Kylo could be redeemed like so many of you desire. He could turn into the Renperor (aka Palpatine 2.0, another theory that’s floating around). Instead of being redeemed Kylo’s story could be carried over into the next trilogy, where he’d be situated as the Big Baddie that the protagonists need to defeat.

There’s talk of Disney making the Star Wars franchise into a forever series (i.e. they will never, ever stop making movies), so this is a possibility too. But there’s still a lot of grey areas right now – a lot of things we don’t know – and I think there’s a real danger in thinking that Kylo’s path is set in stone towards redemption with so many questions still lingering in the air. It’s a bit arrogant of us to decide that we know where the story is going better than the filmmakers themselves (something I have been on the receiving end of, from my own readers, and let me tell you it is intensely aggravating to be told how your own story works by someone who isn’t writing it, especially when they’re wrong. I am guilty of perpetuating this mindset too).

Theorizing and speculation is all well and good, but if we believe too heavily in one theory – if we become dogmatic about it, and turn into stanners – it might blind us towards other story alternatives until it’s too late. Then if Kylo isn’t redeemed, or the redemption doesn’t go the way you want it to, the entire ordeal comes as a shock. People get angry, specifically at the writers, for no good reason. This isn’t cool.

So for now, in terms of redemption, I think it’s best to just sit back and wait. Enjoy the spoilers as they drop, and the general escapism that Star Wars provides. Get more involved in the creative, non-meta aspects of fandom – like fanfics/fanart and cosplay – to pass the time. Maybe play a Star Wars game or two, to familiarize yourself with the EU (if you haven’t already). We’re in a bit of a dry spell right now, in terms of canon content and what we can theorize about. There’s no new books on the immediate horizon, and the next Star Wars movie doesn’t come out until December. That’s not the Star Wars movie, by the way – that’s Rogue One. Star Wars Episode VIII isn’t being released until December 2017. That’s nineteen months from now.

Star Wars should be about enjoyment – about the adventure it provides in getting from point A to B. I mean that’s what the whole series is based on; the swashbucklin’ adventures of our protagonists across the galaxy, hopping from planet to planet in the ultimate expression of wish fulfillment when it comes to being greater than the role you were born into. You were meant to enjoy the ride, not agonize over it and rush towards the end in the hopes of getting the ending you want.



So redemption is cool n’ all, and I’ll be fine if it happens, but it isn’t everything. And those nineteen months are looming large, man. Nineteen months, and that’s only until Episode VIII. There’s a good chance we won’t know whether Kylo will be redeemed (for sure) until Episode IX, and if we don’t find out in Episode VIII, that means we’ll be waiting until May 2019 (that’s thirty-six months) to see if he kisses the light. I dunno ‘bout you, but I can’t torture myself with the question of redemption for that long. I refuse to. So I won’t.

No ya can’t Kylo. My sanity belongs to me. Thanks to @ashesforfoxes for beta’ing this. You’re a trooper.



That’s all I’ve got to say on this matter.