to anybody in Modding Association server, there is some juicy JUICY drama between Loctav and Ephemeral

I can't screen cap convos here but they shouldn't be deleted. and there's quit a bit of farce it'd probably spam this channel

here's a bit of dialogue:

Loctav -

what was wrong was the conclusions the people drew

once he was left

all they did was sniffing each others butt about how the purged the cancer from their team

instead of seeing the point Irre tried to make

regardless of what price he paid for it

Irre does satire about this for years, being less hamfisted about it apparantly didnt do the trick

Ephemeral -

they've not had a great 2018 so far and they made a pretty big step in moving to actually do something for once

Loctav -

its not like he didnt knew that he will pay a price for that, but I am massively disappointed in people still being all too narrow minded to realize what the point even was

Ephemeral -

i wouldn't call it ass sniffing

Loctav -

they didnt have a great 201x

ever since peppy told captin that his dick is delicious and the QAT denying Asymmetry as the most shit clusterfuck in human history at this time (attention: hyperbole) was illegitimate

the QAT was robbed any kind of legitimate authority to act on anything

at leas tin a way that they can actually step their foot down

because as soon as popular-mapper-chan runs to peppy-kun

peppy runs into the thread

or you, Eph, as his lapdog, run into the thread

and try to just shut the problem up

and if necessary, by throwing the QAT under the bus

Ephemeral

i dont think that'll happen again

Loctav -

Ephemeral: honestly, all I can say is that the best is to just disband the QAT and the BNG, make everything ranked from the get-go and be done with it

there are no noticably desire to assure any kind of minimum standards anymore

Ephemeral -

i'm of the opinion that there doesnt need to be a continuation of "BAT meta" as far as ranking is concerned anymore, maps should be assessed to be of a minimum mechanical viability and then left for the community to judge

Loctav -

you should google anarchy

Ephemeral -

this will result in a lot of shit but the stuff that people like will gain prominence of its own soon enough

Loctav -

letting a community judge is just arbitrary anarchy so just embrace the fact that it will be anarchy, save yourself the headache and overhead

and disband both teams

and just let people vote

and be done with it

Myxomatosis -

i just hate how you guys are pretending to know more than anybody else. or attributing everything "minimum quality standards" while most of those maps you just hate because they don't fit to your personal mapping viewpoints that you've established over years

it's understandable to have this reaction but it's not an excuse

Ephemeral -

yeah agree with desp here, "its bad cuz i dont like it" is resonating very strongly here atm

Myxomatosis -

and i used to be an extreme case of this in the past

but i've grown over it and it helped my enjoyment of mapping and modding a lot

Ephemeral -

people throw around quality this quality that but fail to provide any meaningful rubric of what quality is

outside of a vague "i know what it is"

Loctav -

at least I have an opinion on what I find good and what not, while you are literally incapable of finding anything even bad and be fine with anything as long as people had any shape of intention.

If people would at least have an opinion

Myxomatosis -

i find a lot of maps bad

trust me

Voli -

because everything people outline is tossed away by the term subjectivity

Loctav -

and then vote pro versus contra

instead of being all like

Myxomatosis -

but i am NOT trying to keep all maps that i find bad from getting ranked

Loctav -

"everything sif ine because we cant be pro or contra against anything"

Myxomatosis -

it depends on wether i find it bad for its ideas or for its execution

Loctav -

if you dont like this debate on this channel, you can just gently fuck off

nobody forces you to read htis place

if you dont like it

Rabbit Disease: the question is, why not?

Halfslashed -

if i tried to prevent every map i found bad getting ranked, i would create double standards within maps i allow due to lack of time to moderate all of them

Loctav -

why dont you keep things away from ranked that you think are bad?

frukoyurdakul -

because bad is subjective

Loctav -

bewhew

everything is subjective

Loctav -

I am literally sitting next to ti

when it happens

like

physically

I can SEE it

with my own eyes

and my eyes are almost falling out of annoyance

when I see what happens

and when you guys debate probation cases

"oh, he didnt rape a girl while in probation, PROCEED"

instead of actually making a selection

then you vote, but sadly, 90% of the QAT doesnt care

Ephemeral -

isnt it kinda denigrating to all of the QAT to think that none of them give a fuck and are essentially deliberately shitting over everything?

Loctav -

Ephemeral: well, who does give a shit? like actually? arent everybody just ducking their head away and hope that everything just keeps rolling without anybody yelling at them?

Ephemeral -

nobody really gets yelled at anymore

i mean you can see it, you know that's the case

Loctav -

Ephemeral: while players and mappers and people that worked here for years and invested massive amounts of free time have to resolve into satirically pinpointing drastic perceived problems because they felt like they arent heard by normal means anymore

so yes

its the definition of lethargy

you and I know that Probation is a big farce

nobody actually makes a real selection here

as long as you didnt commit a genocide to the North Korean population

you pass Probation

Ephemeral -

that's irre's own fault, he could've spent the time it took him to make a meme out of himself attempting to constructively fix things instead of pooping over it

Myxomatosis -

we have scheduled a detailed observation of all the new bns to see how they are doing, to make further decisions

how are we not making a selection

Loctav -

he took fucking 5 years to internally pinpoint the problems

Ephemeral -

probation is necessary because tiers were strangling the BN to death

Ephemeral -

i'm not saying what exists now is ideal but it's better than it was

Loctav -

isnt ideal? its hilariously flawed

Ephemeral -

well ok, if it's flawed, how do we improve it without reverting to the iterations that we've tried that haven't worked?

Loctav -

Ephemeral is as long in this game as I am and he should know as well as I do that as soon as you add somebody to any team, they are sticking to this team like a furuncle to your anus. getting rid of them, regardless of how much shit they do is harder than doing heart surgery on an infant

unless they commit something drastically terrible, you will not get kicked

because hurrdurrr didnt break rules

cant justify

must not upset community

Ephemeral -

it is very difficult to shake someone yes due to the amount of drama that tends to cling to the situation

Loctav -

because angery peppy spawns

and then yells at you

for causing noise

bewhew

so literally no balls

Ephemeral -

irre partially fucked himself with his outburst

then fully fucked himself with the questionable map

Bonsai -

are you also considering things that aren't direct fuckups but just rather obvious "nominating anything that is rankable"? bc that would be cool tbh

Loctav -

Bonsai: oh no, ranking something terrible is too subjective

because who knows whats terrible

who are you to judge

the QAT?

mayhaps?

I mean

its their job description to judge

but they dont

its funny

they even cant

Ephemeral -

can't you just like

point out issues with qualified maps

and follow the report system

and do precisely that

Loctav -

also evne if you report the maps, the mapper just fully triggers his "THIS IS SUBJECTIVE" trap card

and talks you down like a autsitic toddler

and then gets his will anyways

and nothing changed

so why bother?

I mean, you retards even let ALIEN ranked

Myxomatosis -

we have just today started to get going with dqs again by setting up a new branch in the QAT, get everybody on track, and we plan to check every qualified map by ourselves again

as an addition to the reports

Loctav -

oh, today?

nice

Myxomatosis -

or yesterday

Loctav -

I feel like being promised 8000 new nurses by politicians

hollow "we do things" statements is a speciality of the staff, I have been part of it and I played thsi game for too long

but at the end of the day, the ambition lasts for 3 days

until it dies down again

I failed to fix this

and it keeps failing

Ephemeral -

see reporting being impotent is an issue that can be fixed

that's a good thing to point out

Loctav -

hold your breath, rabbit disease will equal up teaching with indoctrinating your opinion on them

which is BAAAD

whyever

Myxomatosis -

i am not i'm just saying

how do you imagine to teach someone

to "not just check for technicalities"

Bonsai -

a lot of BNs are actually capable of judgint quality very well, but still don't care

funny example, pishifat. At times you could have almost every BN not want to nominate a map but at some point everybody starts crying about it not being easy enough to find BNs causing pishifat to come in and just check eevrything for technical rankability and be a nomination-machine

Loctav -

Ephemeral: everything is impotent. You are literally disallowed to criticize anything, people are not adequately dealing with people criticizing their creations, there is no common goal here that is like "we want this map to be good", but instead everytime someone massively goes against a creation, all they harvest is shitstorm

because "SUBJECTIVE HURR DURR"

mappers have adapted to the fact that just staying stubborn

works 99,999989% of the time

they could have mapped the most atricious thing in human history

you jsut need to talk like nold or monstrata, use the most fancy wordings to cover up that all you literally said across the past 3249832094 sentences was "It fits the song, I like this, I wont change that"

Ephemeral - Today at 9:28 AM

so what's the solution to that

or what's a solution that you'd propose

Loctav -

there is none, just nuke the QAT and ranke verything. People dont want to be criticized and since the only interest in peppy and the people ujp there is that people stfu and just play the game and do things without ever debating anything meaningfully, because ew noise

you better just save yourself the headache

and get rid fo the entire noisy overhead

because all it causes is noise

the outcome is irrelevant to them

Ephemeral -

that's not a solution, that's just giving up

Loctav -

all they care is to get as many things ranked as possible

you know that

if anything everc omes from peppy regarding mapping

its complaining that not enoug shit is ranked

thats literally all he cares about

and if something makes noises, all that is done is to shut up the noise

thats all

Ephemeral -

what they care about is having a game that functions, and the game does not function if we treat mappers and modders like shit in either a system that has no restrictions, or a system that has too many restrictions

Loctav -

it doesnt matter why the nosie happend

or fighting the issue

all that is done is fighting the symptoms

re throwing people out

removing topics

silencing people

ignoring reddit angerly

or PRing the fuck out of people

hoping that you can convince a sizeable amount of people to be on your side

Myxomatosis -

Loctav the big, big problem with what you are saying is that you assume a map being "good" means that it follows a certain criteria you could list down somewhere, and everybody just does that in their head. and then the QAT members are supposed to have the same lists in their head so they can find an agreement on every map and just say which ones get through and which don't

but to me, a map being good means mainly that it has coherent concepts, that it makes sense in itself

and that's why i judge maps from the perspective of the mapper

Loctav -

Myxomatosis: what

Myxomatosis -

criticize inconsistencies and clashes, but don't shit on ideas just because i personally don't like playing them or watching them or whatever

Loctav -

Ephemeral: mappers and modders are being treated like shit in horrible tradition. Every kind of reward to people is denied, any kind of authority in the people who are supposed to shape and form this system is denied

nobody is even allowed to be proud of past achievements

Bonsai -

but soo many maps don't have "ideas" at all, just a generic execution of song->map

but hey, they're consistent? let's get it ranked

Loctav -

see nekodex commenting on scaling up legacy kudosu

Ephemeral -

the only authority one has is in the weight and measure of their arguments(edited)

being old is not a default pass to have your opinion taken at face value without consideration

Loctav -

the entire game is based on leeching off the work of naive teenagers who invest hours of hours making content for a game and then all they harvest is a big fuck off by everybody above them

Myxomatosis -

Bonsai, i couldn't agree with you more on that, this is also a problem i am having since quite a time

Loctav -

"thanks for your map and now fuck yourself in the ass"

Loctav -

you arent even willed to pay the commentators of this game or people who run tournaments, everything is aimed at getting the worthwhile work for free

there is nothing meaningful

that you give to people

as thank you

ok supporter tag

hah

but BNs dont even get that

you even deny them to retain their chat color

in the new lazer client

because "hahahahahah why they arent special hahahahaha"

Loctav -

anyways, we are derailing, I still think, after I saw how the QAT debated after Irre was thrown out, that the QAT is absolutely incapable of learning from mistakes

whether or not I am around or not

Ephemeral - Today at 10:01 AM

i think the qat are trying their best

Loctav -

but sometimes, dear Ephemeral

trying isnt enough

Irreversible -

trying is very well worded

Ephemeral -

i'm content to let them keep trying

Loctav -

you are not even the addressant of my criticism anyways

Loctav -

apart of being incapable of providing them the necessary means to actually ascend beyond trying

Ephemeral -

i know, i'm just saying, i support them in what they're trying to do

Loctav -

but that isnt even your fault either

Ephemeral -

they want things to be better as well

probably the most of anyone

Loctav -

its more a fault of the entire system in how osu is organized

and that there are some ignorant assholes up there

that all find this so unimportant

Ephemeral -

they're a non-factor

Loctav -

as long as osu lazuer menus bounce

and look fancy

Ephemeral -

they dont see it

i see it for them

that's enough for me

Loctav -

while Ephemeral sits there and explains them his cum shooting out of his rainbow dick in very detail

to compliment every work of his bosses

while the work is good

being absolutely irrelevant if the entire community keeps killing itself

Loctav -

Ephemeral: unfortunately it is impossible to provide the actual systemic backing based on your awareness

you always have an ignorant peppy screeching in

Ephemeral -

no that map was a terse attempt to stir a honeypot for shits and giggles

Loctav -

that he finds that all unecessary

and irrelevant

and unneeded

and stupid

Ephemeral -

i am utterly unconvinced it was anything else

Loctav -

if you really still think

that this was for shits and giggles

you entirely missed the point

Ephemeral -

irre's case was given ample discussion and much of the team got involved

Loctav -

oh, the QAT and EPhemeral did, although Eph preaches all the time that he wants to leave the QAT to make its own decisions

he still keeps barfing into the debates

like he doesnt trust them to make own calls anyways

Ephemeral -

i offer them only perspective as does pretty much anyone who sees that channel

Loctav -

you were the first person proposing to throw Irre out

Ephemeral

lol

Ephemeral -

indeed

i dont see what that changes though

Loctav -

if you would truly let the QAT let decide for itself

you would just

stfu

Ephemeral -

they're not unthinking automatons

they're not beholden to do what i say so what harm is there in providing perspective?

Loctav -

you are just not fulfilling your own promise. You said you would let the QAT decide their own fate, while constantly throwing in your thoughts and impacting the debate because of your meaningful role in this hierarchy

whether or not you make use fo it

or make a vote

just being present has an impact

Kroytz - Today at 9:13 PM

Ephemeral - Today at 10:07 AM

i have no role beyond advisory, they do what they want to

i just push the buttons and offer advice

Loctav -

or did you find your psychology degree in a cornflakes package?

Ephemeral -

which they frequently discard btw

and that's fine

Loctav -

maybe you should just

stay out of it

entirely

if you would stick to the word

you gave them

to make them decide themselves

I know its hard

Ephemeral -

i'm sticking pretty plainly to what i told them i'd do

Loctav -

You dont let them decide yourself if you keep making suggestions of actions

Ephemeral -

they decide for themselves, loctav

Loctav -

being a role of advisory would to be answer if you get asked

Ephemeral -

i dont make decisions for them

Loctav -

but you werent asked

you just barfed into it

Ephemeral -

that is precisely what an advisory role entails

Loctav -

barking into a debate you werent even asked for?

Ephemeral -

i have chimed into discussions only when they've been raised to me by other qat

Loctav -

looks a lot like sock puppeting to me

Myxomatosis - Today at 10:09 AM

this argument has become so hilariously pointless

Loctav -

Myxomatosis: because I criticize your debate and conclusion culture?

Ephemeral -

no mostly because it's just ye olde loctav raeg shitflinging

Loctav -

because you dont agree?

because you think that you are unable of being impacted

by people you shouldnt be impacted by?

Ephemeral -

i dunno, something about irreversible afaik

Myxomatosis - Today at 10:10 AM

because you shit on what eph did in a non-public chat

in a public chat

Ephemeral -

it's ok, he can shit on it if he wants

Loctav -

I thought we go full transparent

is it a secret that Ephemeral meddles in QAT things?

Loctav - UC maps the most random crap in existence and gets away with "I LIKE THIS. THIS IS FINE" and Irre satirically does the exact same while telling everybody "look, now I show you how terrible this place is"

Ephemeral -

passing someone's criticism off as purely subjective is dumb as well, but it is subjective at its heart, it's a person's experience with your map and should be considered at least in some way and not outright discarded

Loctav -

and gets kicked for it

everything is subjective

iYiyo -

but

you agree with that, but also agree with irre being kicked

Loctav -

I dont know at what point in osu!s history the word "subjective" became synonyme with "discardable"

Ephemeral -

like this whole thing really just boils down to not being fucktards to each other

that's all it is

Loctav -

on the one hand, they find UCs map fine but Irre's work terrible

they yell for Irre to be kicked

but nobody criticizes UC

or acts on his bullshit

Naotoshi -

the point is that it is not random crap, the intentions are not instantly clear because it isnt purely nice looking patterns but the entire thing is completely thought out and consistent with itself

Ephemeral -

i played irre's map and it was super obviously a dig man, there's really no arguing about it

Loctav -

on whatever level you can react to it

SURE IT WAS

THATS WAS THE POINT

Ephemeral -

qat shouldnt be making snide digs at people

Loctav -

nothing that happened to irre was ever wrong

Ephemeral -

they definitely shouldnt be making snide digs two days after a very public and inflammatory outburst on a high traffic channel that they were officially warned for

Loctav -

the lack of combat against the creations that UC and alike do

is what is wrong here

Naotoshi -

are you in a position where you represent the entire mapping community at the highest level?

no you are not

Loctav -

and thats what Irre showed off

Naotoshi -

irre happened to be

that was what caused the issue

Weber -

irre literally died for nothing

Ephemeral -

there's issues with UC's stuff that he could improve sure but the concept of rendezvous vs the concept of ugly were two completely different affairs

rendezvous was an attempt to follow the "airs" of the song extremely closely and ugly was an attempt to demean and denigrate the styles of other mappers by crudely imitating them for shock value

its supremely obvious

Loctav -

If the only conclusion to a satiric entry that exceeds any level of taste and professionality is to just get rid of the responsible symptom

while deliberately ignoring the point that was made

Ephemeral -

it's obvious even to me and i dont even follow maps that much

Mismagius -

@Ephemeral i would fall for that excuse if UC didnt literally do this style in every single map he makes

Loctav -

just out of sheer disappointment in the person who addressed it

is just ignorant

and stupid

Mismagius -

also he has made comments about "mapping being too aesthetic and that is shIT"

Naotoshi -

how the fuck are we supposed to deal with it

Voli -

its because thats one of the controversial things that people defended and ultimately got into the ranked section

Naotoshi -

the second you veto a map

50 people jump your ass

Voli -

despitre it still being seen as really dumb by most of the bng

Loctav -

Kisses: Ephemeral is inherently very shallow when it gets to the depths of problems.

and its fixes for it

its understandable though

Ephemeral -

i have never seen a 'deep' fix prove productive

in my entire time here

Loctav -

its a rabbit hole

Loctav -

Ephemeral: you actually need to fucking make people accept criticism and change the paradigm of "subjective opinion = irrelevant statement"

Ephemeral -

i did suggest to the qat to have a significant intake of current highly active bn

but they opted not to do it

which is their right ofc

Loctav -

see

thats your all time solution

throwing more people on things

the problem is not that you lack people

Ephemeral -

historically speaking throwing more people on it has helped

temporarily, but it has helped

Loctav -

the problem is that the people are too stupid to act appropriately

it NEVER helped

it made peppy shut up bitching in your ear

that there is no ranked maps

in the past 7 days

but thats it

Mismagius -

that was always osu!'s solution honestly

Loctav -

but it NEVER helped

Ephemeral -

the lack of faith you have in my own agency is almost depressing

peppy asks me to do remarkably little

98% of what i do i do of my own accord, as i always have

and always will do

Loctav -

and everytime you proposed to add more people to things

you just festered into the sucker effect

Ephemeral -

because more people helps

Loctav -

it doesnt

Ephemeral -

most of the time

Loctav -

more people just adds more procedure

Ephemeral -

i think in this particular instance it would help a lot

Loctav -

sure more procedure can process more

Ephemeral -

because the new active bn have very different ideals to the current ones

Loctav -

but if you can not manage the higher amount of procedures

Ephemeral -

and i think those two things need to fuse

Loctav -

they will just die down

Ephemeral -

so that perspective is currently missing from most of the qat, which it probably shouldn't be given that they're managing a group that is from that general timeframe if that makes sense

Loctav -

there is a reason why in osu!s history we never actually achieved to exceed the magical number of 80

in the long run

of active BAT/BN members

sure now we have 100

but in 1 month(edited)

20 will die

or go inactive

Ephemeral -

BUT, the qat didn't agree with me on that front so it didn't happen, simple as that

which is fine

i accept their perspective on the matter even if it differs from my own

Loctav -

I only see hope in drastically pressing a massive reset button

because right now it is just fixing something unfixable

everytime people try to think of solutions

they are just doctoring on the small things

like 24 hour rules

or silly little regulations

instead of thinking bigger

like

scrap everything

rethink

restart

fundamentally

Ephemeral -

everything bigger needs dev time which wont happen

so its ideal vs reality there

Loctav -

and thats the problem

peppy and the devs arent interested in making this work

like

to the people's interest

they just want ranked maps

by all means

Ephemeral -

however, moddingv2 is a unique opportunity for people to get hands on with dev time

which they dont like

Loctav -

the BNG and QAT receives no support whatsoever to receive the meaningful tools

from above

to make a change

that needs to happen

to make this work once and for all

and for longer than a year

without people attempting social suicide again

because of frustration

Ephemeral -

it cant atm because of lazer unless someone steps up and does it

if we had like 5 clones of naxess

Loctav -

moddingv2 is just github's dirty child with stackoverflow, developed past any desire of the users

Chaos -

not quite sure what you would propose be done from a dev standpoint to fix the state of the mapping community

Mismagius -

@Loctav this only works if you have a community of hardworking and dedicated people though

Loctav -

its ust a vision of what peppy and devs like because they are developers

and they like development tools

I dont say that the tools they develop arent good

or dont get the job done

Chaos -

the community is a mess because it brought itself to where it is, from top to bottom

Mismagius -

the only reaaon we have so many people interested in being BNs now is because you can freely circlejerk and people have no expectations on you

like with old bats

Ephemeral -

i honestly dont see the problem with circlejerking in a group with nearly open admission(edited)

and now they're just talking about prestiges and stuff and the old days

--------------------------- (insert 5 hours later spongebob meme)

Loctav -

you are expecting them to do a work that a head editor is doing on a newspaper, which is fully interpretative and subjective and yet you shush away from an at least unified agenda on where the journey leads to

Ephemeral -

i dont expect work

Loctav -

it is work

don't be so ignorant

Ephemeral -

it's work for me because i'm paid for it, but when i wasn't, i never viewed it as work

i did it because i enjoyed doing it

it brought me happiness

that is why i did it

Loctav -

you have volunteers illegally working for you for free because of their native good will

Ephemeral -

if you do not enjoy doing bn or qat stuff, dont do it, i wont ever think ill of anyone for opting out of something they dont want to do

Chaos -

I don't think people are so delusional as to do things against their own good will

Ephemeral -

this is a game, you should enjoy it

Chaos -

if they didn't want to do something enough they would stop

Loctav -

oh, they do things voluntarily

nobody forces them

but it is per se illegal to hire volunteers as commercial company

which is what happens here

Loctav -

and whether or not you label it as work or not

it is work

and osu is formally commerical

even if the internal agenda maybe isnt

Ephemeral -

it's probably closer to an npo

Loctav -

and this is illegal in the entirety of the EU

Ephemeral -

than a commerical enterprise

Loctav -

Pty Ltd is not commercial?=

I was paid from a family company

which is inherently commerical

its just a different form of business

Ephemeral -

i have no idea how that works

Loctav -

osu isnt formally signed up as NPO

its signed up as full fleshed company

Ephemeral -

i really couldn't care less about the legal aspect of it

it's so beyond my scope

Loctav -

I mean, I am just saying

you cant just run around saying it isnt work

when it is

you ahve people work for you

and every court would agree with that

Ephemeral -

people work because they want to work, they're not beholden or requested to

Loctav -

if you are commercial, you must share your profit with the people that helped you achieving this profit

Ephemeral -

they contribute to the development of a community oriented project

it is not corporate

Loctav -

ppy Pty Ltd is a company

its commerical

you cant talk around that

Ephemeral -

99.99% of all players have no interaction with that company

Loctav -

my tax advisor told me that

that it is illegal

and that I should get out of it

asap

because I would be liable

Chaos -

I don't see how that really matters since everything we do is voluntary knowing there isn't any payment or employment involved

Loctav -

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ephemeral -

i dont see the point in discussing this

Mismagius -

what exactly do you suggest then in this case loc

should peppy just start paying everyone for being around lol

Loctav -