<Ed> mz is a retarded 18 year old mtf

<Urat[Quet]> mt

<Aureus> how is it that i've never met a tranny irl, but they're all over the damned place online

<MidgardZolom> I'm not retarded, I'm 25, and I'm already 6 months into transition.

<Greggles[Laks]> yeah, i'm wondering the same thing aur <.<

<MidgardZolom> But totally thanks for all the stereotyping. :3

<xdaxdb> I'm against transexual operations

<Urat[Quet]> ok

<MidgardZolom> Becaue Aureus a lot of transgender people go stealth and never tell people.

<xdaxdb> strange that I am distantly related to Chaz Bono

<MidgardZolom> Once they go stealth they look and act just like any normal member of the gender they identify with.

<Ed> [23:39] <MidgardZolom> Once they go stealth they look and act just like any normal member of the gender they identify with.

<MidgardZolom> Why are you against them xdaxdb?

<Ed> they absolutely do not look like the real thing

<Ed> you will never, ever be able to change your body enough to look like a girl

<Ed> you can approximate a girl

<xdaxdb> I can understand a man being attracted to other men... go ahead and be gay that's fine

<Ed> but you'll never break the uncanny valley

<MidgardZolom> Ed. :3 Sorry but stealth transwomen and transmen look just like women and men.

<Aureus> chaz bono doesn't look anything like a dude

<MidgardZolom> Theres tones that do.

<Ed> my title is "extremely discerning eye"

<Ed> fyi

<Aureus> she looks like a fat lesbian with a beard

<xdaxdb> but to go and deform your own body to look more like something else....

<MidgardZolom> xdaxdb I'm not attracted to men at all.

<Urat[Quet]> there's that one "guy" from tokio hotel

<Urat[Quet]> whatshisname

<Ed> you'd have to spend a shitload of money on plastic surgery to get around looking like a guy

<Urat[Quet]> he's not even trying and he looks like a chick

<Ed> especially around the eyes

<Greggles[Laks]> Every mtf I've ever seen looks like a really butch chick =x

<Urat[Quet]> if he actually wanted to change genders he probably could do it seamlessly :x

<Greggles[Laks]> like...you could tell that they used to be a dude

<Ed> you can always tell

<MidgardZolom> Ed. I'm not there yet, I'm only at 6 months, but this is my progress. http://home.comcast.net/~puer/maxtimeline.jpg

<raKia> home.comcast.net : http://bit.ly/tlCa3s

<Ed> there's something gently, subtly wrong with the image

<Aureus> and hormones don't alter your bone structure, right? still have broad shoulders/square chin?

<Ed> yeah

<Ed> you can cut a lot of that away with plastic surgery

<Ed> but it's extremely expensive to reshape your face like that

<xdaxdb> Not understanding why people can't just be gay...

<Ed> bro, you still look like a dude

<Ed> sorry

<MidgardZolom> Actually I'm intersexed, I have female body proportions already

<MidgardZolom> but because I still had a high testotestrone from my extra chromosome I grew facial hair and got fat.

<xdaxdb> as in?

<Ed> trisomy of the 23rd chromosome XD

<Greggles[Laks]> ;o

<MidgardZolom> I have a 1.00 finger ratio, I have hip bones that are 1.00 ratio to my shoulders, and an hourglass figure.

<Aureus> going by that picture, you have more of a sphere figure...

<Ed> ^

<Ed> body "proportion" doesn't change the fact that your zygomatic arch is still masculine

<Ed> more angular than flat

<Aureus> sorry, was a good opening :P

<Ed> you look like a guy in the face

<xdaxdb> so you are considering changing to being a woman?

<MidgardZolom> yes.

<xdaxdb> and you arent atracted to men?

<MidgardZolom> I have nonfunctional testies which produce testoterone but not semen.

<xdaxdb> idk

<MidgardZolom> Yes

<MidgardZolom> I am considered Homoflexibile though. I prefer women, but there are a few male body types I'm attracted too.

<xdaxdb> so you feel you have to change your body so that the rest of the world will accept you more as a woman

<xdaxdb> seems strange to me

<Ed> except that he looks like a dude in his before images

<Ed> so it's really weird

<Aureus> ...homoflexible?

<xdaxdb> but i've always not cared about the rest of the world

<Ed> it's not like "well, I already look like a girl so I should just go the rest of the way"

<Aureus> who the hell made that word up

<Greggles[Laks]> yeah i've never heard of that term

<MidgardZolom> I know I do Ed. Because in my before pictures I was full of testoterone.

<Ed> I mean, some japanese/filipino tgirls looked like girls before they started

<Ed> so all they really had to do was get rid of the dick and they were in

<MidgardZolom> Homoflexible means you prefer the company of the gender you identify with, but are attracted to very few people of the opposite.

<Urat[Quet]> doesnt sound like a scientific term at all :x

<Ed> but starting as an obvious dude and trying to become a girl

<MidgardZolom> Its not

<Aureus> yeah...here's the classification system the rest of the world uses

<Ed> is just weird

<xdaxdb> My biddy was pointing out how a lot of porn sites have a special section for italian transexuals...

<Aureus> do you like dick? if yes gay, if no straight

<Ed> yeah, italy has a lot of tgirls for some reason

<Urat[Quet]> if yes to both then you are bi

<Aureus> opposite for women, of course :P

<MidgardZolom> Why am I gay if I'd like dick, which I dont.

<xdaxdb> and I was like " so are italian tranies like the holy grail of TS?

<Ed> russia has some tgirls too

<Urat[Quet]> however there is technicly speaking no such thing as true "gay"

<MidgardZolom> No, its all based on the person themselves.

<Urat[Quet]> all males are one of 3 things

<Greggles[Laks]> i'm sorry, i'm kinda confused. so you like women, but you also identify as a woman?

<Greggles[Laks]> so then you're technically straight, but are homosexual? O_o

<Ed> it seems like a roundabout system

<Ed> I'm going to become a girl to pick up lesbian women because I'm a guy who likes women

<xdaxdb> but you are already who you are... the concept that you need to change your body to be accepted is so alien to me i don't think i will ever get it

<Ed> like a goddamn anime porn plot

<MidgardZolom> No Greggles, I'm a Lesbian Transwoman, which means I'm attracted to women.

<Greggles[Laks]> O_o ok

<MidgardZolom> But I'm homoflexibile so theres a few men (very feminine soft men) that I'm attracted too.

<Ed> so does that make me homoinflexible

<Ed> I don't even know

<xdaxdb> lolz

<Aureus> haha

<Urat[Quet]> that just means you're straight and the men looks close enough to females your subconcious becomes mistaken

<xdaxdb> no Ed, you are just an inflexible homo

<Ed> that's not wrong

<MidgardZolom> Urat, how am I straight if I identify as a woman?

<Urat[Quet]> but yeah, there's been quite a few studies showing that "homosexual" men are still attracted to males

<Urat[Quet]> wait your female?

<MidgardZolom> and attracted to women, and ultra efffiminant men?

<Greggles[Laks]> you identify as a woman, but are still technically a man right? so straight

<Aureus> you have a y chromosome. identify as whatever you want, you're a guy

<Urat[Quet]> oh then you're just normal

<Aureus> until they find a way to fix that

<Urat[Quet]> all females are bisexual

<MidgardZolom> Female is Biological, Woman is Gender, two different concepts.

<Urat[Quet]> in varying degrees

<Greggles[Laks]> >.>

<MidgardZolom> I am not technicaly a man.

<Ed> lol

<Aureus> not different concepts at all

<Urat[Quet]> its true

<Aureus> y chromosome = man

<Ed> good grief, it's like a troon thread in here

<Ed> genetic structure doesn't lie

<Ed> XY = man, always

<MidgardZolom> Aureus, I have an extra chromosome.

<MidgardZolom> :3

<xdaxdb> the scientist in me tends to agree Y = Man

<Linku> you're a downy?

<Ed> ^

<Urat[Quet]> trade me if you wanna sell to me :3

<Urat[Quet]> mt

<Ed> actually, don't mt that

<Ed> that's an appropriate joke

<Greggles[Laks]> yeah but then if he was born with XXY then idk

<Ed> [23:51] <+xdaxdb> the scientist in me tends to agree Y = Man

<Ed> "tends" to agree

<Greggles[Laks]> yeah >.> i know

<Ed> there's really no interpretation of XX/XY distinction

<Urat[Quet]> yes there is, its called gender

<xdaxdb> wait what

<Aureus> xx/xy distinction -is- gender

<Aureus> period

<Ed> you could be a unique snowflake and say XY is woman and XX is man

<MidgardZolom> Urat

<Ed> but they're still two different genders

<MidgardZolom> Gender is a Social Construct

<Ed> lol

<MidgardZolom> And not tied to chromosomes at all.

<Ed> a social construct

<Aureus> no, gender is genetic

<Ed> vagina, penis, social constructs

<Greggles[Laks]> no, gender is biological

<Greggles[Laks]> lol

<Aureus> label it whatever you want, the fact remains

<Urat[Quet]> pretty sure its a biologically solidified concept

<Ed> those things are just figments of your imagination

<Urat[Quet]> gender is a term identified biologically to when

<xdaxdb> I would have to say Especially in the age we live in now gender is purely biological

<Urat[Quet]> a species uses a form of sexual reproduction to reproduce

<Aureus> if you chop your dick off, that doesn't make you a woman. that makes you a guy that chopped their dick off

<MidgardZolom> Society Assigns a person a Gender based on a social construct based around what appears to be in your pants.

<xdaxdb> you can be a woman and like football and hotrods and nobody will think strangly of you

<Linku> Aureus: lol

<Urat[Quet]> no

<Urat[Quet]> quite the opposite

<Ed> [23:54] <@Aureus> if you chop your dick off, that doesn't make you a woman. that makes you a guy that chopped their dick off

<Urat[Quet]> you are correct in saying man is not the same as male though

<Ed> in just seven days, I can make you a man

<Urat[Quet]> male = X/Y chromosone

<Urat[Quet]> Man = adult human with x/Y chromosome

<Ed> the only ambiguity is when you have chromosomal deficiencies or mutations that intersex you

<xdaxdb> now we're just spliting cunt/cock hairs

<Aureus> extra chromosomes makes you a mutant that chopped their dick off

<Urat[Quet]> 100% literally speaking

<MidgardZolom> Trust me, there are women out there who were born male, or intersex, who now look like really beautiufl women and who are extremely attractive and you'd never know they were once men.

<Aureus> :P

<Urat[Quet]> if you have X/Y chromosone you are male. period

<Linku> except for the broken ass vagina

<Urat[Quet]> if you have X/X chromosone, you are female. period.

<MidgardZolom> On the inverse, There are women out there, who were born women, and are ugly as sin and look like men.

<Urat[Quet]> it doesnt matter if you have a vagina or not, or breasts, or penis, or nothing at all

<Ed> MidgardZolom, people like you are why I have to put "was born a woman, genetically" in any "what do you look for in a woman" type posts

<Greggles[Laks]> lol

<xdaxdb> Ed's mom = Broken Vagina

<Urat[Quet]> it doesnt matter how beautiful or ugly or whatever you are

<Aureus> haha

<Urat[Quet]> you could be missing an eyeball or be blind

<Urat[Quet]> X/Y = male, X/X = Female

<Aureus> I'd go with "Does not possess a Y chromosome", weeds out the idiots too :P

<Urat[Quet]> this is the biological definiton of male/female

<Urat[Quet]> better yeah

<Ed> you can't argue with genetics though

<Ed> XY = man

<Ed> always

<Urat[Quet]> *male

<Ed> if you were intersex or have some retarded mental issue that makes you think that XY isn't male, you have problems

<Ed> and I don't want to deal with those problems

<Urat[Quet]> Im fine with changing genders

<xdaxdb> yeah, man is a man. If you want to be a gay man, or a very feminine man, i will be your friend. but you are still a man

<Urat[Quet]> but until we gain the abilit ythrough gene therapy to change your Y chromosone to an X

<Urat[Quet]> you are still male

<Urat[Quet]> you are a male that identifies as a female, which is totally fine

<MidgardZolom> Ed, I'm not attracted to you, at all so you dont have to be threatened by me. :3

<MidgardZolom> Urat

<Ed> just imagine the horrendous offspring that XY would create if a tgirl could have children

<Ed> the reason you use XX/XY is for diversity

<Ed> the Y chromosome contains less genetic information

<MidgardZolom> I'm a MALE, that Identifies as a WOMAN, After I get a surgery next year, Legally my license and birth certificate will all say "Female"

<Urat[Quet]> you're still male on the inside though :x

<Urat[Quet]> but thats fine

<Ed> [23:58] <MidgardZolom> Ed, I'm not attracted to you, at all so you dont have to be threatened by me. :3

<Urat[Quet]> no one can see your insides

<Ed> I didn't say anything about threatened

<xdaxdb> if you are a hermaphrodite... with both a vagina and a penis... i would say you could basicaly act however you want and fick whoever you want.. but the moment you decide you need to mutilate yourself to be one or the other you lose my support

<xdaxdb> god made you as you are

<Ed> lady gaga?

<Urat[Quet]> I'm fine with changing gender

<Urat[Quet]> as long as you dont expect special treatment for it, it makes more jobs for doctors

<MidgardZolom> Urat, I'm female on the inside too, Everyone has always told me I'm too feminine for my own good, and that I think like a girl often.

<Urat[Quet]> no I mean as in your blood and DNA Zolom :3

<MidgardZolom> I dont want special treatment, Hell, I'm paying for everything myself out of pocket and haven't asked anyone for help.

<Urat[Quet]> as in if they looked at your chromosones, you'd have the DNA signatures of a male :3

<Aureus> you do want special treatment though

<Aureus> you want people to say you're female. you're not.

<Aureus> that is special treatment

<Urat[Quet]> I'll say you're a woman, not female

<MidgardZolom> Urat, My blood says I'm Intersex. :3 I'm not male or Female, A Doctor looked at my genitals when I was born and said "Eh, its a boy." but I have high estrogen and high testoterone production in my system.

<Urat[Quet]> but you have an X chromosone

<Urat[Quet]> and a Y

<Ed> I'm just a sweet transvestite, from transexual transylvania

<Ed> :V

<Urat[Quet]> that Y chromosone says "male" that is the only part of your entire body that determines your gender

<Urat[Quet]> the rest of it doesnt have any actual connection to gender

<Urat[Quet]> just that 1 little chromosone

<Urat[Quet]> see if a baby is born without a penis but it has a Y chromosone, it's still male

<Urat[Quet]> a baby could be born wwith a vagina and a Y chromosone, still male

<Ed> sometimes life plays a cruel joke and creates somebody like kin

<MidgardZolom> Urat, I also have an Extra chromosome.

<Ed> who needs to be purged

<Linku> MidgardZolom: which one is extra

<Urat[Quet]> ok well if you have an extra chromosone now thats different

<Ed> MZ's going to the wiki article where there's like ten documented cases of XXY

<Urat[Quet]> do you have XXY?

<MidgardZolom> I'm actually speaking from memory Ed.

<Greggles[Laks]> I don't even think it's possible to have XYY is it?

<Ed> no

<Urat[Quet]> you can

<Ed> you can have YY, in theory, but it's never been proven

<Greggles[Laks]> O-o interesting

<Urat[Quet]> but then you'd be like, mentally handicapped

<Ed> XX* is more common

<Ed> but even then it's ridiculously rare

<Ed> like 100 documented cases

<Urat[Quet]> XX is female :x

<Linku> YY should be awesomer

<MidgardZolom> yeah :/

<MidgardZolom> XX is Female

<Linku> extra good at math

<Linku> drive like a boss

<Urat[Quet]> YY is the wierd one

<Urat[Quet]> but there is XXY

<MidgardZolom> XXY, YYX, are both Intersex.

<Ed> YY was theorized to be the genotype for ultraviolent criminals

<xdaxdb> I think there was a YY episode of house once

<Greggles[Laks]> any documented effects on what YY would do?

<Urat[Quet]> it does happen

<Ed> back in the early 90s

<Aureus> yy isn't possible

<Ed> but that was debunked

<Greggles[Laks]> yeah i don't think it would be

<MidgardZolom> xdaxdb no it was XXY

<Urat[Quet]> you need the X chromosone to be human

<Greggles[Laks]> since females have XX

<Aureus> anything with a y is male, and can't give birth

<Aureus> so yy can't happen

<Greggles[Laks]> and males are XY, basically you should only be able to get XXX or XXY if trisomal

<MidgardZolom> Actually Aureus it can :/

<xdaxdb> MidgardZolom was that the one with " the ultimate woman, is a man" ?

<Urat[Quet]> X chromosone has all the important information

<MidgardZolom> But it'll be in science that it happens.

<Ed> the original theory was that YY was a mutation of the XY genotype and you would end up with an ultraviolent sociopath

<MidgardZolom> yeah xdaxdb.

<Ed> basically augmenting the worst of human psychology

<Linku> what about XYY

<MidgardZolom> Its about the model who was molested by her father and turned out to have an extra chromosome.

<Ed> wiki says it could happen, in theory

<Ed> but I don't think there's ever been a documented case

<Ed> XXY is super rare too

<xdaxdb> yeah thats the one

<Greggles[Laks]> that's wiki <.<;

<Ed> like 0.01% of the population

<Ed> at most

<MidgardZolom> It can once they perfect sperm from bone marrow.

<Linku> XYY boys have an increased risk of learning difficulties (in up to 50%), and delayed speech and language skills.

<Ed> it's basically zero

<Linku> sounds like manly men to me

<MidgardZolom> uh Ed, XXY is 1/1000 births.

<Aureus> xxy is male. xxxy is male. xxxxy is male. maybe eventually they can engineer a yy

<Aureus> but until then it's impossible

<Urat[Quet]> I think it could be possible for xxy to be female

<Urat[Quet]> since not all of the Y gene has the info about breeding

<MidgardZolom> It depends on development

<Urat[Quet]> so its possible you could be XX with a mutated Y gene

<MidgardZolom> Some XXY Intersex peoples are given hormones from a young age to promote them towards their identifiying gender.

<Greggles[Laks]> how would you even inherit a second Y gene though?

<Ed> you don't inherit it

<Ed> it's a genetic aberration

<xdaxdb> so It is safe to say that the destinction between male and female is not a solid black line... but more of a grey area

<Greggles[Laks]> oh

<Urat[Quet]> its a very tight grey band :p

<Ed> during the blastocyte phase your genome replicates in a weird way and it malforms at the 23rd pair

<xdaxdb> that's why I say. You are what you are you fuck what you want to fuck

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<Urat[Quet]> its a giant white square, a giant black square, with a razors edge thing grey band between

<xdaxdb> no need to mutilate yourself

<Greggles[Laks]> ok that makes sense ed

<Ed> that's why it's so rare

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<Linku> whoops

<Ed> it's literally a glitch in the way proteins fold during embryonic development

<Ed> sometimes nature fucks up

<Aureus> gonna link the wikipedia page you're paraphrasing?

<Ed> no

<Ed> I'm sure if we annoy MZ enough he'll link it

<MidgardZolom> xdaxdb, Its not mutliation, its helping to assign your external appearance to match your mental identification.

<Aureus> why not just treat the mental disorder then?

<Aureus> instead of surgery?

<Ed> you can't jesus the problem away

<Urat[Quet]> cheaper :x

<Linku> i don't get why so much surgery

<Ed> it's like trying to "treat" homosexuality

<Ed> you can't

<Linku> just be yourself

<MidgardZolom> I'm not using wiki lol

<Linku> don't have functioning penises?

<MidgardZolom> I dont even have a browser open right now.

<Linku> theres always fisting

<Greggles[Laks]> lol

<Ed> or dragon dildos

<Ed> :V

<Urat[Quet]> because they're paying for it, and that means more money for the rest of us

<Urat[Quet]> so as long as that is the case, I dont care they can do what they want

<MidgardZolom> Aureus, DSM and WPATH SOC's both state that the only Remedy for a Transgender Patient is transitioning.

<Greggles[Laks]> yeah, i don't see why it matters what someone else does if it doesn't affect you /shrug

<MidgardZolom> Talking it out do not assist transgender people.

<MidgardZolom> neither does anti-depressant medication.

<Aureus> okay, we haven't discovered the medication that will cure it yet, so we treat with surgery

<Aureus> makes sense

<Urat[Quet]> not this guy

<Ed> I want to know who the mengele was that said "hey, I wonder how you try to create a vagina out of a penis"

<Ed> like

<Ed> there was some sadist out there who really wanted to chop dicks off

<MidgardZolom> thats why 40% of the transgender population dies from suicide. They can't get the help they need because people act like they should just "Act like a guy" or what ever.

<Greggles[Laks]> lol

<Ed> and decided that was going to be his business

<Ed> i'm helping people! *gets the hedge clippers*

<xdaxdb> I think, that surgery is not the answer. If you identify yourself other than what you physically are then you are gifted with the ability to call into question normal gender roles that are transparent to most people. Instead, if someone decides "there is something wrong with me i better cut off certain peices of mysefl to be normal" then you are sort of throwing away your gift.

<Ed> that implies your dick is a gift

<Aureus> the DSM also defines alcoholism as a disease, and we -all- know that's bullshit

<Ed> if it is, return to freakin sender

<Ed> jesus

<xdaxdb> sorry

<Aureus> get some fucking willpower, ffs

<MidgardZolom> Aureus, lol wtf seriously?

<Ed> DC25 willpower roll

<Ed> roll for initiative

<Urat[Quet]> hahaha

<Ed> I put on my wizard robe and hat

<jeremy2020> there seems to be high level of interest in gener modification in here

<Greggles[Laks]> I'm so annoyed right now, no matter how much I blow my nose it stays stuffed up ~_~

<Ed> cocaine

<jeremy2020> gender;

<Ed> alternately cayenne pepper powder

<Aureus> if it's a disease, it can be treated with medication or surgery. not by going to monthly meetings.

<Ed> all up in there

<Urat[Quet]> disease means a physical issue with the body causing it to perform below proper levels

<Ed> my disease is that I want to purge the furry scum that plagues the world

<Ed> yiff in hell

<Urat[Quet]> I only have an issue with furries who are all like "ohmahgawd I'm so prosocuted"

<jeremy2020> you can make it happen

<Ed> fursecution complex is the best

<Ed> they make the best tears

<xdaxdb> Ed: i'm not saying a penis is a gift. I am saying the fact that one might think of themselves as a woman and they have a penis, gives them insights into both manhood and womanhood that they can use to help others.