I was surprised to find that there was a lot of discussion and debate on campus among the students themselves about the awarding of the degree. Have you seen push-back from students? WAINWRIGHT: Not much. A little from some alums. I actually think that's a high-low problem. There's still this sense that high art is what we do, is what we honor, is what we're about. And that pop culture is not what we teach in art school. Pop culture, mass culture—that's a whole other thing, and we're about high art. I think that's a problem. We're trying to collapse those boundaries a little bit. That's what I like about Kanye. Chicago's known for it. Chicago pop art. Harry Who and The Chicago Imagists. Chicago's known for really looking at source material that's popular. And yet we're associated with the museum, the Art Institute of Chicago, which features high art. A little bit of it was class within the art world. There are many classes in the art world, some of the push back was, "Wait a second, this is pop." That's what I dig. We're going to have, on stage, both the director of the Art Institute, Doug Druick, who's a very renowned historian of 19th century art and runs a major encyclopedic museum in the country, and Kanye West, who talks to the people on the street. It's perfect. I love the combination.



There was one student who started a petition to bake the degree in a cake. Other students opposed his use of profanity in his music, or claim, "He's not an artist, he's a celebrity." To see younger people take that stance is interesting. MASSEY: That hasn't been as widespread. They get maddened about it once they get on social media. People who have no connection with the school will comment on it. They're still young! People aren't fully formed in any of these areas. One of the things I said here that I'm liking more and more about this taking place is providing an opportunity to talk about those kinds of issues. Why do you think that? What's behind your immediate surface reaction? I think it probably wouldn't have been as good to me if there were no opposition. It would've been too bland. WAINWRIGHT: I think also we've had opposition to our speakers in the past. You can imagine Jeff Koons—some of the faculty and students had questions about. We had the Guerrilla Girls, a graduation speaker had a gorilla mask on her face at graduation, so we heard from the parents about that one [laughs]. You can't please all the people all the time.

How many tickets does Kanye get? Does the whole family get to come? He's got a lot of in-laws. WAINWRIGHT: [Laughs] Tickets are a real problem already, I heard scalping is happening. MASSEY: The other thing, of course, is that he's from Chicago. He's from Chicago!



Were you two fans of his work ahead of this? Does any of his material stand out? WAINWRIGHT: I have a 16-year-old, so I've been sort of listening to rap for the last five years in the background with me going, "Turn that down!" But now I've been listening to Kanye, and he's remarkable. I mean, it's a really fantastic sound. The sound itself, the music is phenomenal, and then the lyrics. I'm watching "Black Skinhead," that one is amazing to me. That's just such a powerful lyric, and very danceable, which is my criterion. "Jesus Walks," that's another one I think is really just powerful, powerful, powerful lyrics. My son has turned me on to rapgenius.com. This is what I do as an art historian, I deconstruct what works of art mean. Now I'm looking at his lyrics and reading about, he has this term "Chiraq." He's comparing Chicago to Iraq, and the violence to the youth. The guy is smart. The lyrics are smart, the music is beautiful, it's complicated, it's post-modern, it's hip, it's awakening, I couldn't be happier.



