Wahhabi/Salafi Aqeedah:

Above The Throne ?

"After theythey took to interpreting away all that contradicts its

…They also said that the statement of Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds (2:210) must be understood literally to mean they declare it forbidden another.

So they declare it permissible one year and said:' We affirm this according to its external sense

It is as if they said:

'So-and-so is standing but he is not standing.'

(Najmal-Din Sulayman ibn `Abd al-Qawi) al-Tufi (al-Hanbali) said:

"They ascertained that he had blurted out certain words concerning doctrine which came out of his mouth in the context of his sermons and legal decisions, and they mentioned that he had cited the hadith ofAllah's descent, then climbed down two steps from the minbar and said:

and he was categorized as an."

interpreting away all that contradicts its being located on the Throne.

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1. “Unfortunately you believe that Allah has no place and no direction therefore is nowhere. Thus you are in a way saying that he does not exist."

Wahabi/salafi says:

2. "I know where my creator is because that is what we have been clearly taught from the quran and it is clear cut not maybe or but!"

Wahabi/salafi says:

3." I have given you proof of ^various quran and hadith to suggest that Allah is above the throne in a way that befits his majesty.

^Wahabi/salafi says:

4. "Now you give me clear proof that Allah has no direction and has no place from the quran and hadith."

Wahabi/salafi says:

"Please don't use the arguement that i have taken these verses literally as that is weak. Also do not use any scholar modern or early but the quran and sahih hadith

"Please don't use the arguement that i have taken these verses literally as that is weak. Also do not use any scholar modern or early but the quran and sahih hadith

"Please don't use the arguement that i have taken these verses literally as that is weak. Also do not use any scholar modern or early but the quran and sahih hadith ."

^Wahabi says:

^"...clearly taught..."

(end of quote)

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Sunni Reply





We Muslims have NEVER denied that Allah is above the throne, we just deny your definition of “ aboveness ”





Your problem is just as same as JUHA!

was told by his mother to guard the door, he took it off its hinges and walked away with it, whereupon the house was ransacked. When his mother blamed him he said:

Juha was told by his mother to guard the door, he took it off its hinges and walked away with it, whereupon the house was ransacked. When his mother blamed him he said:

Juha was told by his mother to guard the door, he took it off its hinges and walked away with it, whereupon the house was ransacked. When his mother blamed him he said:

‘you only told me to watch the door, not the house!

‘you only told me to watch the door, not the house!

‘you only told me to watch the door, not the house!

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“Unfortunately you believe that Allah has no place and no direction therefore is nowhere. Thus you are in a way saying that he does not exist

“Unfortunately you believe that Allah has no place and no direction therefore is nowhere. Thus you are in a way saying that he does not exist ."

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He was before He brought place and time into existence, and He is now as He ever was.

"Had He been in a place and needing to sit and rest before creating the Throne, then the question 'Where was Allah?' would have applied to Him, which is impossible."

"Had He been in a place and needing to sit and rest before creating the Throne, then the question 'Where was Allah?' would have applied to Him, which is impossible."

"Had He been in a place and needing to sit and rest before creating the Throne, then the question 'Where was Allah?' would have applied to Him, which is impossible."

"Had He been in a place and needing to sit and rest before creating the Throne, then the question 'Where was Allah?' would have applied to Him, which is impossible."

“O Allah, You are the first: there is nothing before You; and You are the last:there is nothing after You. You are the Manifest (al-Zahir): there is nothing above You. You are the Hidden (al-Batin): there is nothing below You.”

is related to have said in

is related to have said in

is related to have said in

is related to have said in

'The Creator took His place (hâ llun) on the Throne, the Throne is His location (makâ n), and He is sitting on top of it."

'The Creator took His place (hâ llun) on the Throne, the Throne is His location (makâ n), and He is sitting on top of it."

'The Creator took His place (hâ llun) on the Throne, the Throne is His location (makâ n), and He is sitting on top of it."

'The Creator took His place (hâ llun) on the Throne, the Throne is His location (makâ n), and He is sitting on top of it."

'The Creator took His place (hâ llun) on the Throne, the Throne is His location (makâ n), and He is sitting on top of it."

'Allah existed when there was no place; then He created the Throne and the Footstool (al-'arsh wa al-kursî ) without ever being in need of place, and He is, after creating place, exactly as He was before creating it.

'Allah existed when there was no place; then He created the Throne and the Footstool (al-'arsh wa al-kursî ) without ever being in need of place, and He is, after creating place, exactly as He was before creating it.

'Allah existed when there was no place; then He created the Throne and the Footstool (al-'arsh wa al-kursî ) without ever being in need of place, and He is, after creating place, exactly as He was before creating it.

'Allah existed when there was no place; then He created the Throne and the Footstool (al-'arsh wa al-kursî ) without ever being in need of place, and He is, after creating place, exactly as He was before creating it. '

'Allah existed when there was no place; then He created the Throne and the Footstool (al-'arsh wa al-kursî ) without ever being in need of place, and He is, after creating place, exactly as He was before creating it. '

[ In Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari (Saqqa ed. p. 150).]





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Al-Aqeedah at-Tahaweeyah

that the instinct of every human will lead to a conclusion that Allah is inclined towards an upward direction, i.e., towards the Arsh, is refuted by the proofs that can be witnessed in those who live around us and who hold different beliefs.

that the instinct of every human will lead to a conclusion that Allah is inclined towards an upward direction, i.e., towards the Arsh, is refuted by the proofs that can be witnessed in those who live around us and who hold different beliefs.

. He encompasses everything and is above it, and what He has created is incapable of encompassing Him

. He encompasses everything and is above it, and what He has created is incapable of encompassing Him

He is independent of the Throne and what is beneath it.

He is independent of the Throne and what is beneath it.

50. He is independent of the Throne and what is beneath it. 51 . He encompasses everything and is above it, and what He has created is incapable of encompassing Him

Also among the people are those who believe that Allah is a mass of light.

Also among the people are those who believe that Allah is a mass of light.

This is because among the people are those who believe that this

This is because among the people are those who believe that this

All these matters have been explained by the hadîth Master,





Imâm Ab al-Faraj Ibn al-Jawzî





He has cleared the Imâm's name of such foul slanders and has provided explicit proofs exposing the lies of the slanderers.





"The Flaming Falcon Swooping Down on the Dissenters of the Hanbali Madhhab"





Ibn al-Jawzi:

“I have observed that some of our companions have written about matters of creed in a way that is not proper. There are three in particular: Abu ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamid, his disciple, Qadi Abu Ya’ la, and Ibn al-Zaghuni who composed books by which they have disgraced the madhab .





They held the attributes of God to be subject to human understanding and perception. They heard that God, Glorified and Exalted be He, Created Adam on his image, upon him be blessings and peace. On that basis, They acknowledged for Him an image and a physical form, a face attribute to His essence, two eyes, a mouth, uvulas, molar teeth, and lights for His face which represent His majestic splendor, two hands, fingers, a palm, a little [pinky] finger, a thumb, a chest, a thigh, two shins, and two feet. [They even went so far as saying]: “We have not heard any mention of the head.” They [then] said: “It is possible for Him to touch and to be touched, and to bring the slave close to His being.”



One of them said: “[…] He breathes. ” Then they calm the common people by saying. “[These attributes] are not taken as commonly understood.”





Ibn al-Jawzi continues:



“You have made this madhhab such a shameful disgrace that when it is said, “Humbali,” it is understood that he is someone who likens GOD to His creation . You have then made your way to be that of bigotry and intolerance …”





“They adopted the literal meanings of the names and ascriptions and called them attributes -an invented designation, of which they have no evidence, neither from transmitted knowledge of the text, nor reason.”





[Daf` Shubah al-Tashbih bi Akuff al-Tanzih]





“ And beware of what Ibn Taymiyya , his student Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya and others wrote; he [ Ibn Taymiyya ] is a man who took his lusts for his Lord, for which Allâh led him astray despite his learning, sealed upon his hearing and heart, and put a veil upon his sight; and who can guide him after Allâh let him be misguided?



Why should He not, when these heretics have gone past the boundaries set by the Sharî`a and trampled them?





Yet they imagine that they are the guided ones , that they are guided by their Lord Almighty when the truth is that they are not. Rather, they are on the wrong path, the most heinous, misleading way and most abominable traits. They are afflicted by vices and have incurred a great loss. May Allâh humble their followers and wipe the earth clean from their likes!”

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Al-Imam Abu Hamed Al-Ghazaliy, rahimahu Allah, in Al-Ihya said: “Allah, the Exalted, existed eternally and there was no place. He is not a body, jawhar (atom), or property, and He is not on a place or in a place."

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This is likening Allah to his creation





Ibn ˆAbbaas said, “Ponder about everything, but do not ponder about the Self of Aļļaah.” (Fatĥu-l-Baariy 13/383 )





He said this because such dwelling leads one to draw analogies between the Creator and the created, which is blasphemy. It contradicts the belief in Aļļaah’s Oneness, as it involves the heretical belief that Aļļaah has an equal in some aspect . It also contradicts the Quranic “Absolutely nothing resembles Him.”

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“O Allah, You are the first: there is nothing before You; and You are the last:there is nothing after You. You are the Manifest (al-Zahir): there is nothing above You. You are the Hidden (al-Batin): there is nothing below You.”

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We can discuss Quran/Hadith and sayings of the Salaf regarding proofs or figurative interpretation until we run out of ink, and turn blue ourselves, but we will not get anywhere.





What I really want to know is, how is it that you accept to believe in self contradictory beliefs? And do not simply tell me, “because I follow the Salaf,” because if you accept to believe in self-contradictory beliefs, how can you claim to have knowledge of what the Salaf said?





According to You the Wahabies Allah is literally above the throne without ever leaving it, AND literally in the sky of the world in the last third of the night

(i.e. always, because the Earth is round, so it is always the last third of the night somewhere.)



Do you see a problem here?





Then You say it is blasphemy to say that Allah is inside His creation (even though the sky of the world is below the other six created skies above it)…. Then, seemingly just to add to this mess, some of them also say that He is literally in the seventh sky.

Not only that, you also say He is literally encompassing the world and yet you also say it is kufr to believe He is mixed with it.





So in your belief, He is encompassing the world (thus a surface outside creation’s borders), and in the first Sky (deep inside creation, below 6 other skies), and yet it is kufr to say He is mixed with creation or enters it. Perhaps we could call this a “self defeating belief system?” It is certainly no different from the christian belief that 1=3.





On top of this they explain that this mess of contradictory statements represents the simple belief that human nature inclines towards, and is free of complications. Yet when you try to show the contradictions in what they are saying, they shout: “KALAM!! Why do you use your mind?? Why do you engage in Philosophy?! It is Bidˆah. If you do not find all this intuitive, then there is something wrong with your natural inclinations (Fitra)!”





What it boils down to then is that they are exactly like the christian priests who tell their followers, “do not mix faith with reason, follow your heart!” As the scholars say, “Blasphemy is one nation.”

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wahabi/salafi said:

Quote: “Now you give me clear proof that Allah has no direction and has no place from the quran and hadith. ”

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23- He is not in need of anything.

Allah Ta’ala said in

Surat Al-Ikhlas, ayah 2:





Allah, Ta’ala, is The Creator who is attributed with the attributes of Perfection.

Hence, He is not in need of anything. Being in need implies imperfection which would contradict and nullify the meaning of Godhood. Every creation has needs, and therefore they are dependant .

Among the needs is the place and time, both of which are a creation of Allah. We need a place and a space to exist in, because we are a physical mass. Allah, Ta’ala, is not like us, and therefore is not in need of a space or place. He, Ta’ala, exists without a place, because He is The Creator of place. The same applies to time. Allah is The Creator of time, therefore, it does not apply to him, Subhanahu wa Ta’ala.

Anthropomorphists or (Al Mujassima) believe that Allah Ta’ala resides in a place or partially contained in a place above the 7 th heaven, and they believe if Muslims say Allah is not in any specific place this would lead to negating Allah’s presence.

Because to them, if Allah exists then He must be in a place.

They fell in the pitfall of applying the standards of creation on The Creator, may Allah safeguard us from this blasphemy.

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wahabi said:

Quote:

“I know where my creator is because that is what we have been clearly taught from the quran and it is clear cut not maybe or but !” ----



A creation can only think, imagine and delude about another creation, and as we intellectually grow our intellectual thinking capacities and imaginations grow with us, and we can imagine and think about more things. This very process reflects our imperfection. If one is perfect, then one should be able to know and imagine everything. It is impossible sometimes to imagine another creation such as the extent of space, or the mechanism of some cells in our body, or the laws of physics,….etc.. it is impossible to imagine some of the creation!!, hence, it definitely is impossible to imagine The Creator.





Allah Ta’ala said in Surat Maryam, ayah 65:

“Is there anything similar to Him”?

Allah Ta’ala, also said in Surat Al-Ihklas, ayah 4:

“ nothing is equal or similar to Him”



The above mentioned ayahs, among a lot more in the Qur’an, constitute the basis of Islamic belief in Allah. He is not the creation.

Delusions cannot apply to Him, minds cannot encompass Him, thoughts cannot conceive Him, imaginations cannot grasp Him.



8- No imagination can conceive of Him, and no understanding can comprehend Him. He does not resemble the creation.



Allah Ta’ala, said in Surat Al-Nah’l, ayah 60:

“ Allah Has the Perfect attributes”

Allah Ta’ala said in Surat Ashura, ayah 11:

This ayah firmly established that nothing is like Him, therefore everything we imagine or capacitate is something, and Allah is similar to nothing.





Islam stresses and emphasizes on this very important point in Tawheed (monotheism). As breaking this rule, would automatically invalidate the state of Tawheed; simply:



The Creator is distinguished from the creation.





Hence, our imaginations and our intellectual capacity are all part of us, a creation. The creation can never encompass The Creator. In other words, imperfection cannot encompass perfection. One cannot define some creations that are complex and advanced, with no comparison, The Creator cannot be imagined by a created imagination of a created human being.



Al-Imam Than-noon Al-Masri,

may Allah have Mercy on his soul, said:





“ Whatever you imagine in your mind, Allah is different than that”.





Because no matter what one may imagine, it is still a creation with limited capacity, which can only imagine another creation, if that!





9- He does not resemble the creation.

Allah Ta’ala, said in Surat Al-Ikhlas, ayah 4:

“ He has no equals or similars"





He does not resemble the creation is very important, and is the core of Islamic monotheism. Simply stated, Allah Ta’ala, does not resemble any creation in any and all ways. Many people depart Islam to blasphemy imagining that God looks like a human being with limbs, organs, lives in a place up in the skies, rests, descends and ascends, comes and goes, sleeps and rests, or that He is a light!!!!!…etc. All these deviations are because they tried to conceive God in their imaginations, that lead them to compare Him with things the mind knows and understands, therefore, they fell into blasphemy.





Examples are also numerous, among them what Allah said in Surat Taha, Ayah 5:

“ Ar-rahmaan (The Merciful) Istawa over the Arsh”





Many people who attempted to translate the Qur’an into other languages or those half-knowledgeables who attempted to dive in the science of Tafseer(Qur’anic interpretations) without proper academic knowledge in Tafseer, and they knowingly or unknowingly disembarked into an unknown territory for them which led many of them to commit serious mistakes.

Some have interpreted the above ayah with:





“Allah is firmly established on the throne”.





They committed at least two errors in their effort to interpret and understand the ayah, one in arbitrarily interpreting the Arabic word Istawa as established, and the other interpreting the word Al-Arsh as the Throne.

This ayah is clearly among the ayat Mutashaabihaat, and submission to Allah in its true meaning is the safest way. This kind of irresponsible and erroneous interpretation may lead to misguidance, chaos and confusion. And if some imagination are led to imagine, then that is the pathway to blasphemy, may Allah safeguard us all.





Whereby Istawa can have many meanings!!!





In the Qur’an itself, the word Istawa have seven ( 7 ) different meanings. In the Arabic language Istawa has more than twelve ( 12 ) different meanings. Picking and choosing one meaning rather than the other is the source of the problem.





Al-Bukh a riyy,





al-Bayha q iyy and Ibnul-J a r u d and

related that the

Messenger of Allah, said:





روى البخارىُّ والبيهقىُّ وابنُ الجارود أن رسولَ الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال:

"كان الله ولم يَكُنْ شَىءٌ غَيْرُهُ".



Which means:

“ All a h existed eternally and nothing else existed.”





This hadith proves





that only All a h existed without a beginning, i.e., before creating any of the creation. There was nothing with All a h : no place, no space, no sky, no Earth, no light, and no darkness. It is determined in the rules of the Religion and the judgments of the sound mind that All a h , the Exalted, does not change.





All a h will change and dwell in a place, because this is a development. Hence, it is impossible that after having been existing without a place,will change and dwell in a place, because this is a development.





The development is a sign of needing others,

and the one who needs others is not God.





Human nature is to apply imagination to the unknown, and they must learn not to do that when speaking of Allaah.





A Dangerous Belief:





Humans are curious by nature. That curiosity led some since Adam, alayhi assalam, to try to imagine The Creator. Many could not simply submit to God and His attributes of perfection. Instead, they attempted to imagine Him, and since all they can imagine is what their created imagination can do, they imagined Him like a human being but with supreme and unlimited powers.

The idea that seeped into the human mind that God looks like an old man with all that it comes with it, limbs, organs, hair, face, lips, teeth, tongue, beard, two hands, fingers, two legs, two feet,…..basically a total human being!!! Also that He –according to them- resides in the 7th heaven or in a place above that where he can watch the universe and manage it, while sitting firmly on the chair of the throne!!!

And Angels are surrounding him, while He is a very bright mass of light!!!!. Hence, Know, may Allah guide us and you, that those who believe in God as such, are actually worshipping an idol they imagined in their minds, and definitely not worshipping The Creator. Such a devious belief departs its people from Islam to blasphemy immediately.





Anthropomorphism in the current Torah and Bible:





Anthropomorphism is not only written in the old and new testament, but unfortunately is widely propagated by both Jewish and Christian scholars.

Clear and unambiguous statements in the above mentioned books affirming anthropomorphism are negated by other verses in the Torah and the Bible reflecting remnants of the pure Tawheed that was the base of thos e books, and clearing The Creator from resembling anything else.

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