This is an IRC log from #tor-internal - our water cooler irc channel. It was

made on November 10th, 2014. I have created this log because it is absolutely

essential that everyone on tor-internal@ see the internal live chat related to

the recent tor-internal@ mailing thread.

Please be considerate with this log file - it is probably not a good idea to

leak it to anyone but transparency for this is absolutely essential. We're

headed for some soul searching as a result of the recent messaging thread and

this is probably going to be an involved process.

Here is the log file:

19:29 < sekritarma> i am going to invite david chasteen in here shortly. he's going to send mail to the tor-internal list explaining lots of things. then everybody here can discuss with him if they want.

19:36 < puffin_> we have a Kickstarter account

19:37 -!- puffin_ is now known as puffin

20:18 < mrphs> speaking of which, how do we get an offical Google and Dropbox account?

20:19 < mrphs> we need thse accounts for gettor

20:19 < sekritarma> what needs to be official about it? the name? an email address it's associated with?

20:20 < mrphs> maybe the email. I could make one, using my @tpo email. but we should enable 2factor.

20:21 < mrphs> I could also get a burner and do that

20:21 < mrphs> but thought I'd ask first

20:22 < mrphs> people wouldn;t get to see the actual account, but it's important to keep them safe.

20:22 < mrphs> we're shipping binaries after all

20:24 < gamambel> i created a gettormail@gmail once

20:25 < gamambel> to use gmail SMTP to be able to send larger mails to gmail recipients

20:25 -!- DaveC1 [~ubuntu@ec2-54-164-45-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #tor-internal

20:25 < DaveC1> Hola.

20:25 < puffin> mrphs: I can sign up for a burner phone if you would like

20:25 < qbi> hiho DaveC1

20:28 < mrphs> puffin: that'd be helpful

20:46 < mrphs> "I was never involved in or aware of

20:46 < mrphs> operations against US persons"

20:46 < mrphs> what about non-us persons in this community?

20:46 < mrphs> DaveC1: ^

20:47 < DaveC1> mrphs: "I was never involved in or aware of operations against NGOs and/or journalists or activists, American or otherwise.

20:48 < DaveC1> Tor is an NGO as is every organization I think you'd include in "this community." So no.

20:49 < DaveC1> Not to my knowledge.

20:59 -!- Yawning [~yawning@0001bef1.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal

21:02 < puffin> mrphs: Is an old Nokia OK, or do you have a burner phone already?

21:04 < mrphs> puffin: I dont have one. but wait, things are getting a bit weird these days. I need to rethink my opsec.

21:04 < mrphs> pls keep this on hold

21:04 < puffin> ok

21:06 < mrphs> we're going to ship binaries, and we like it or not, most people dont check sigs. I want to make sure we can keep these accounts as secure as possible.

21:10 -!- ln5 [~linus@00017a4c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]

21:11 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh@000170a3.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]

21:12 < gamambel> DaveC1: i read your statements as honest, and it is a very brave move. thank you for that. incredible. i do however share the scepticism in regard to whether this can end well for tor (and you)

21:12 < gamambel> good luck

21:14 < DaveC1> gamambel: Thanks. I appreciate it. You and me both. I really wish it hadn't worked out this way with the HS thing. Timing is terrible.

21:14 < gamambel> i hear you do an excellent job, and based on that i can understand the hope and belief that you will help make tor better. i share that hope. i just don't see how this can possibly work. but you are the person who has thought about this the most.

21:16 < gamambel> this is the first time i feel the immediate need to share and discuss it, but i don't have any tor people around me and i don't want to take -internal stuff out in the open. this time, it is really hard not to just share this with the people in my room... ugh

21:16 < DaveC1> Yeah. I mean, we want to be as transparent as possible as soon as possible. I think Boingboing is a great way to break it since they get Tor and I trust them.

21:17 < gamambel> i hope this embargo can be lifted rather sooner than later, but it will turn into hell

21:17 < helix> I think it was incredibly selfish of you to join tor knowing this would utterly fuck us PR-wise

21:17 < gamambel> i understand the time constraints, but to keep this 'secret' for that long is quite a burden for all of us

21:17 < helix> it's nice you want to do nice things, but the amount of trust you're going to destroy is unbelievable

21:17 < helix> if you care about tor you should have stayed away

21:17 < gamambel> especially those that have the freedom to live transparently

21:18 < athena> seconded: are you *out of your fucking mind*? have you seen the months-long harassment campaign from pando, including an *actual fucking rapist* ?

21:18 < gamambel> i've never had to keep a secret in my life, and i really didn't want to start that now :(

21:20 < puffin> In terms of skills we need, someone who can teach us some things about physical security would be nice if one of the pando people decides to show up

21:22 < Yawning> puffin: errr, I'm not seeing that

21:22 < Yawning> have them removed from the event, it's private proerty

21:23 < Yawning> is there more to it than that? (am I being naive here?)

21:23 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh@000170a3.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal

21:25 < mrphs> honestly I feel betrayed for reading that 3 letter word.

21:25 < mrphs> I cant even stop thinking about all the terrible things.

21:26 < puffin> would you rather have the government exclusively staffed by people who don't care about human rights?

21:26 < puffin> who is supposed to watch the watchers and raise objections?

21:27 < mrphs> I would rather have my family (and myself) alive, at first place, tbh.

21:27 < Runa> DaveC1: hm, I read your "I will go public with this regardless"-statement as you not taking tor's interests into account. I got the impression from your first email you wanted to coordinate with Tor and publish when everyone's on the same page, not the other way around.

21:27 < DaveC1> (Was writing emails, back)

21:29 < DaveC1> Runa: I totally want to coordinate with Tor and publish when everyone's on the same page. But the option is being floated to tell me to go away and sever conection as much as possible.

21:29 < DaveC1> Which would mean not coordinating a public statement.

21:29 * helix hugs mrphs

21:29 < Runa> DaveC1: I think you need to be a bit patient and let the news sink in with everyone.

21:30 < Runa> DaveC1: if you move forward without being on the same page as the rest of the organization, you will only make things even worse.

21:30 < DaveC1> And, of course, I'm going to be accused of having been (the worst ever?) illegal penetration of a US NGO. I plan on still having a career, so I'm going to have to defend myself. I'd rather do it WITH Tor. :-(

21:30 < DaveC1> Runa: I totally agree.

21:30 < DaveC1> 100%

21:30 < DaveC1> And I'm not going anywhere unless I'm told to.

21:30 < DaveC1> But that option was floated this morning.

21:30 < DaveC1> I don't think it's a good one.

21:30 < helix> I think it's the best one

21:31 < DaveC1> helix: Understood.

21:31 < Runa> DaveC1: I'm curious, how do you picture an ex-CIA within the Tor Project as being good for Tor's public image?

21:32 < DaveC1> Runa: Well, so there are multiple audiences that Tor needs to talk to.

21:32 < DaveC1> You guys are most familiar with the activists who run the nodes and use the software and... activate.

21:32 < DaveC1> I'm most familiar with the bureaucrats who debate whether or not to keep paying the bills at Tor.

21:33 < DaveC1> And I"m most familiar with their decisionmaking process as to whether they should keep doing that. Ignorant people are all "oh, but then we won't be able to still do the job of securing the country."

21:33 < DaveC1> I'm in an unusally authoritative position to say, "um, bullshit."

21:33 < Runa> I'm concerned we are going to lose a lot of public support

21:36 < Yawning> Without a well qualified PM/somone that can talk to funders or people from the Man that can make our lives increasingly difficult, is there going to be something for the public to support?

21:37 < Runa> Yawning: yes, I think so, Tor can do a lot better with fundraising and getting help from the community than what it has attempted to do so far.

21:38 < helix> god, is project management really so important that we're willing to ruin our reputation?

21:38 < Runa> what helix said

21:38 < helix> can't believe the responses I am seeing

21:38 < puffin> we are skating on *very* thin ice with current funders

21:38 < puffin> who talk to the foundation people - it's a small world

21:39 < DaveC1> helix: I definitely don't want to ruin Tor's reputation. But what looks worse: we hired this guy who defected from the intelligence community to support net freedom, let's see how he is, or "Tor was secretly penetrated by the CIA and then tried to hide it."

21:39 < puffin> we have needed a PM for years

21:39 < helix> how bout "we accidentally hired an ex-CIA guy and fired him as soon as we found out"

21:39 < helix> that would have been the ideal story

21:40 < puffin> I have to go - there are some fundraising threads out there

21:40 < Yawning> puffin: gl

21:41 < Yawning> DaveC1: just to clarify something, will you have anything that resembles git push access to code?

21:43 < Runa> Yawning: an upside of open source, I guess?

21:44 < DaveC1> Yawning: Not a coder.

21:44 < DaveC1> Just a PM, so no need.

21:44 < Yawning> DaveC1: right, that's what I thought

21:46 < DaveC1> helix: That can still be the story. But there's also, and I don't want to be a dick about this, but some of the anti-vet comments I've heard and anti-vet hiring policies that people have been advocating make it sound like "we accidentally hired a vet and fired him as soon as we found out" and that doesn't feel very good. Or very legal.

21:47 < Runa> not to be a dick, but "we hired someone who we realized would not be a good fit for this community"

21:47 < helix> well put, Runa

21:49 < DaveC1> Runa: That's a completely legitimate reason and I'll defer to it. But I would submit that you can't decide whether I'm a good fit for this community based on my resume any more than you can based on my skin color or race or gender.

21:49 < helix> uh

21:50 < Runa> I disagree completely.

21:50 < helix> I would equally feel super comfortable stating ex-mossad is not a good fit for this community

21:50 < helix> that doesn't make me an anti-semite

21:50 < helix> so please stop implying these kinds of things

21:51 < ioerror> hi

21:51 < ioerror> I just saw this email

21:51 < DaveC1> Not saying these things are equitable. But the mechanism is the same. The reason racism blocks understanding is the idea that you can take an entire group of "those people" and understand them as objects rather than persons.

21:52 -!- Julius23 [~Julius_M@1QLAAB34O.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal

21:53 < helix> yes, it is very unkind of me to other spies

21:53 < DaveC1> What would have happened if Wikileaks said "we can't trust Snowden! He's NSA!" Would that have been good for net freedom?

21:53 < helix> we know what snowden did

21:53 < DaveC1> I'm glad they didn't do t hat.

21:53 < DaveC1> Valid.

21:54 < DaveC1> I'd like it to be possible for intelligence community people to come help net freedmo with having to permanently move to Moscow.

21:54 < DaveC1> I'm gonig to ask for permission to say more about what I did.

21:54 < Runa> there are a lot of ways to help net freedom, joining tor may not necessarily be the best idea though

21:54 < DaveC1> I'll be as broad as I can be in the Boingboing article and we'll see what they let me do.

21:55 < Runa> I'd like to echo isis' concern that there's a press strategy on your end in place while we're just hearing all of this.

21:55 < DaveC1> Runa: True. But this is what was available to me.

21:55 < DaveC1> Runa: The press strategy was formed with Karen and Roger as I was talking to them about this.

21:55 < DaveC1> I would have put out this email on day one, but wanted to get Roger's coord.

21:56 < ioerror> this is a prank,right?

21:56 < Runa> in the past, these things have been coordinated with the core community

21:56 < ioerror> weren't you working at the start department according to karen/

21:56 < Runa> draft posts have been flaoted by -internal

21:56 < helix> he lied

21:56 < Runa> ioerror: yep, now we know that was a cover

21:57 < ioerror> wow, karen's vetting is pretty solid here

21:57 < Yawning> ...

21:57 < ioerror> ...

21:57 < Yawning> "has to lie or he ends up in jail"

21:57 < ioerror> so, did you bring any docs DaveC1?

21:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: I didn't have access to anything whistleblower-worthy. Thankfully. I think Ed was brave as fuck.

21:58 < DaveC1> I don't know that I would have been able to blow up my life like that. I wasn't in that position.

21:58 < ioerror> Didn't you fight in the iraq war?

21:58 < DaveC1> I did.

21:58 < ioerror> that entire war was a war crime according to international law - so any photos or evidence would count

21:58 < DaveC1> http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Floridian/War_stories__from_tho.shtml

21:58 < ioerror> i know some people in europe that would be happy to help you prosecute rumsfeld and others

21:58 < ioerror> especially bush

21:59 < ioerror> i'm not quite done with the email here but at halfway through, I'm pretty much glad my spook radar is spot on

21:59 < DaveC1> ioerror: If you really think that would be a useful strategy, then by all means, let's chat.

21:59 < helix> ioerror: word

21:59 * mrphs is trying not to have a heart attack

21:59 * Runa waits for ioerror's email

22:00 < mrphs> I'm even afraid to ask questions

22:01 < isis> mrphs: if you have questions, it'll more than likely help all of us if you ask them

22:01 < isis> mrphs: you could have perspective or concerns that the rest of us are lacking

22:02 < ioerror> DaveC1: how do we know that you actually quit the CIA?

22:03 < ioerror> i mean, given that you used department of state as a cover, how do we know that you're not doing the same with Tor and actually working for the CIA?

22:03 < DaveC1> ioerror: Good question.

22:03 < ioerror> Other than, I suppose, the obvious of having said that you wor kfor the CIA, which makes me wonder if you really work for DIA or another angency

22:03 < DaveC1> ioerror: I THINK they'll actually confirm it now.

22:04 < ioerror> yes, well, I expect the CIA to tell us you've left, if you ahve or if you haven't - whatever serves them best

22:04 < mrphs> working on internet freedom, might send you to prison in iran, for a long time. being affiliated with cia, gets you and your family tortured and murdered before getting a chance to answer any questions.

22:04 < mrphs> I'm sure DaveC1 knows all about that.

22:04 < DaveC1> ioerror: Publication Review Board will review the Boingboing article I'm writing with Xeni.

22:04 < Runa> you should write it with tor instead

22:04 < ioerror> DaveC1: the CIA lies to the american public

22:04 < Runa> that's how we do things.

22:04 < DaveC1> ioerror: They wouldn't allow me to lie about my CIA affiliation.

22:04 < helix> can't believe xeni knew before the tor developers

22:04 < Runa> yeah, wth.

22:04 < ioerror> if the cia puts people under cover, they do everything to keep it

22:04 < DaveC1> Runa: Sorry about that. :-(

22:05 < ioerror> i know, I have most of the cia manuals to train under cover travel: rule number one - never blow your cover story

22:05 < helix> boklm: right on (re mail)

22:05 < ioerror> so, the cia won't blow it

22:05 < DaveC1> Runa: the email was with Roger, but Xeni eni was there and I saw andopportunity. I trust her not to release it before we're ready.

22:05 < ioerror> so, there is a horrible irony here

22:05 < ioerror> i know xeni well

22:05 < Runa> DaveC1: will -internal be ablet o review before it goes public?

22:05 < ioerror> i trust she will do right by this

22:05 < DaveC1> ioerror: Using Tor as a cover like this would be super illigeal.

22:06 < DaveC1> House and Senate oversight would lose their shit.

22:06 < DaveC1> THis is high profile. That would be really really stupid.

22:06 < DaveC1> Runa: Yes.

22:06 < DaveC1> Runa: That's my plan.

22:07 < Runa> I'm not sure you are aware of how we usually do blog posts and such, but it's pretty much always a coordinated effort than -internal gets to review before it goes public.

22:07 < ioerror> You mean like, XKEYSCORE, the drone proggram that kills american kids in yemen, the iraq war, FAIRVIEW (NSA domestic spying with AT&T as a partner) or any other secret US spy program?

22:07 < ioerror> I mean, I can't really take this seriously, I feel like I am being trolled

22:08 < ioerror> What did you do in the CIA?

22:08 < DaveC1> Runa: I haven't shown anything to anyone. I'm just coordinating the idea with Xeni. Haven't shared any content yet. I'll coord with -internal before I do.

22:08 < ioerror> Where were you deployed?

22:08 < ioerror> What clearances did you hold?

22:08 < ioerror> Have you ever killed someone?

22:08 < mrphs> ^^^^

22:09 < isis> umm

22:09 < ioerror> Have you ever participated in torture or drone programs?

22:09 < ioerror> (this question list is awful)

22:09 < DaveC1> ioerror: 1. Can't say yet, but I'll try to get permission for more detail.

22:09 < ioerror> (not answering is also awful)

22:09 < ioerror> Did you ever work doing infiltration of groups?

22:09 < DaveC1> 2. Can't say. :-(

22:09 -!- aagbsn [~aagbsn@000184b5.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

22:09 < ioerror> Did you work in counter intel?

22:09 < DaveC1> 4. TS/SCI

22:09 -!- aagbsn [~aagbsn@000184b5.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal

22:10 < DaveC1> 5. THat is an incredibly rude question to ask a vet, but no. Not directly.

22:10 < DaveC1> 6. I never participated in torture. That's illegal and I would have told the entire fucknig universe if anyone ever asked me to.

22:11 < Runa> what does 'not directly' mean?

22:11 < DaveC1> Runa: I was a soldier. In the invasion of Iraq.

22:11 < Runa> mhm

22:11 * mrphs thinks about killing with drones

22:12 < isis> Runa: i.e. have you ever indirectly killed someone via flushing shit down the toilet in the US with potable water? we all do things to kill indirectly, it would be exceptionally difficult to make any accurate guarantee to the converse.

22:12 < ioerror> isis: yeah, that is bullshit

22:13 < isis> gandi fucking killed a million people indirectly

22:13 < ioerror> isis: when you are part of an imperialist illegal war and you're in the invasion force as a warrior, you do not get to claim it is like flushing shit down the toilet

22:13 < ioerror> isis: irrelevant speculation

22:14 < ioerror> isis: in any case, i'm happy to see that my friends in iraq are an abstract concept to you

22:14 < isis> the deaths in iraq are by no means abstract

22:14 < isis> the concept of "indirectly killing" is

22:14 < Yawning> I don't think I can sit in this conversation and remain civil.

22:14 < DaveC1> ioerror: I was opposed to the war in Iraq.

22:15 -!- Yawning [~yawning@0001bef1.user.oftc.net] has left #tor-internal [Leaving]

22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: I came back and tried to stop it.

22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: I did everything I could.

22:15 < ioerror> I shut down the city of san francisco to stop the war

22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: It is the greatest shame of my life that I participated.

22:15 < ioerror> I think that we should not discuss this in detail

22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: Did it? Stop the war?

22:16 < ioerror> later with wikileaks, i did help end the iraq war

22:16 < ioerror> and so, yes, we did as much as anyone has done so

22:16 < DaveC1> I started an organization to help tell people the truth about the war.

22:16 < ioerror> we ended the protection for contractors and soldiers to be immune from prosecution

22:16 < DaveC1> http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Floridian/War_stories__from_tho.shtml

22:17 < sekritarma> in other news (and why i didn't wade into the email thread immediately), my little birdy tells me silk road 2 was indeed opsec failure, and the surrounding busts were because the silk road 2 guy named a whole lot of names when they started pressing on him.

22:17 < DaveC1> And the, when I realized that incompetence and politicization at the CIA led to that war, I went there and tried to keep it from happening again. :-(

22:18 < Julius23> sekritarma: oh, thats good news!

22:18 < sekritarma> my little birdy didn't know anything about the relay seizures.

22:18 < DaveC1> ioerror: We all did what we could. Some of us have different opportunities.

22:18 < DaveC1> https://www.facebook.com/david.chasteen1/posts/10152701425166737

22:19 < isis> ioerror: please, we're all shocked and wondering what is the best way to move forward, please try - as much as you're angry - not to wantonly attack DaveC1, but try to remain civil. causing a dramabomb on top of a clusterfuck is probably not going to help.

22:19 < DaveC1> That's what I wrote about 9/11 this year.

22:19 < Julius23> Hi DaveC1!

22:19 < ioerror> isis: when you compare the iraq war to gandi (the domain register??!? I suspect you meant Mohandas Gandhi), I can't even believe you are trying to do that.

22:20 < ioerror> isis: in any case, my questions are not an attack, they are questions directly related to my interests related to Tor

22:20 < ioerror> If we have a CIA person working at Tor, many of us will be put in danger

22:21 < isis> my key is fucked up

22:21 < ioerror> As it stands now, I have been accused of being CIA and that is very dangerous

22:21 < isis> h that one

22:21 < DaveC1> ioerror: Really? Like more than already is the case?

22:21 < DaveC1> ioerror: Like, yeah. That.

22:21 < mikeperry> sekritarma: not knowing about the relay seizures is concerning.. It sounds like we still don't have the whole picture/story

22:21 < ioerror> Once, I was deported from Lebanon for being jewish, which was because htey said i was a spy for israel (false)

22:21 < ioerror> If we have a CIA person working with Tor, I won't get out of that next time, I fear

22:22 < ioerror> And I barely did get ou tof that in 2009 (as Sebastian and others may recall)

22:22 < ioerror> I am still banned for life from Lebanon

22:22 < DaveC1> ioerror: I identify. Coming out of the closet means that a lot of travel is for-real not safely available for me anymore.

22:22 < DaveC1> That's why people don't usually do it.

22:22 < DaveC1> It's seriously pretty dangerous.

22:22 < DaveC1> But I care enough about this to do it.

22:23 < ioerror> DaveC1: Why was your first reaction to expressing some skepticism that bringing US intelligence agents/cleared people on board might not be so great for Tor's image... to effectively threaten to sue Tor for discrimination against vetrans?

22:23 < mikeperry> also, I am completely unsure what to do about the DaveC1 thing. it seems like it will put a lot of our community at risk and cause fallout. I was excited to have a bridge to the State dept and gov't bureaucrats, but this seems like the cost is too great. forgive me if I appear to otherwise ignore this, really not sure how to handle it

22:24 < ioerror> mikeperry: did you catch that he used State as a cover?

22:24 < mikeperry> yes

22:24 < ioerror> mikeperry: ie: what do we know about bridge building there?

22:24 < mikeperry> and it also seems like we're fucked both ways

22:24 < ioerror> mikeperry: it isn't clear that this is even useful to anyone and that this, along with many other things is about to bring tor down

22:24 < mikeperry> the discrimination thing seems bad by itself

22:25 < mikeperry> yep

22:25 < ioerror> I can't tell if you're kidding

22:25 < ioerror> We don't hire war criminals, we don't discriminate by not hiring them

22:25 < DaveC1> ioerror: Sorry. I've worked a lot on diversity issues and started an organization that is focused on combatting veteran stereotypes and discrimination, so I'm probably more sensetive to it than most.

22:25 < ioerror> We don't put our users in Iran at risk

22:25 < ioerror> If we hire a CIA person, which we have done apparently, we will get people murdered

22:25 < mikeperry> right. I think that argument is fair, and valid

22:26 < ioerror> this is the shit i have said for a long many of you have denied that this was the game we were playing

22:26 < ioerror> I'm really at a loss here.

22:26 < ioerror> DaveC1: Did you do Counter intel at CIA?

22:27 < DaveC1> ioerror: I don't think I am allowed to answer questions about what I did or didn't do at CIA. Sorry.

22:27 < gamambel> mikeperry: ioerror: looks like our servers were returned to all three datacenters already. we're trying to get the boxes out for analysis.

22:27 < DaveC1> I really will push for more detail in the Boingboing article and see if it gets through the publication review.

22:27 < gamambel> it's a bit complicated since that's against company policy (rental servers)

22:28 < mikeperry> the other thing that is conflicting to me is that I really do believe what he says about wanting to support net freedom and bridge that discussion with other agencies, and in effect is putting himself in a rough position just to do this..

22:28 < Runa> DaveC1: you should push for more detail to -internal first.

22:28 < mikeperry> but the optics will be so bad it doesn't seem to be worth it

22:28 < gamambel> why don't we take the RBN money for HS?

22:28 < ioerror> mikeperry: I think that i once warned you about becoming the monster mike

22:28 < ioerror> mikeperry: I feel like you did not even take me seriously at the time

22:28 < DaveC1> Runa: Hmm. Actually. That's exactly what I had in mind, re: the review process.

22:28 < ioerror> mikeperry: It is very clear that we're at that line

22:29 < sekritarma> runa: i trust that dave will work with us to produce a boingboing article that we help with. i'm not worried there. the question is how good that article can be for us.

22:29 < Runa> DaveC1: you seem to bring up boingboing before -internal, that's all.

22:29 < mrphs> DaveC1: do you understand that publishing such a thing can actually cause a lot of serious trouble? I think I made it pretty clear that my family might get fucking murdered.

22:29 < DaveC1> Runa: So kind of wondering how that works (thinking through the logical ramifications of the publicon review process re: revealing things)

22:29 < mikeperry> we're in that line also in part because we need lots of people to find Tor valuable, including the CIA

22:30 < DaveC1> Runa: Yeah, no. I wil l coord with -internal, then Xeni, then back to -internal, then back to Xeni, the push the final version to CIA's PRB for review.

22:30 < mikeperry> I made a very similar call when Andrew mailed tor-internal about his creepy plane flight with CIA agents next to him, telling him he should apply for IARPA funding/CIA funding

22:30 < DaveC1> Because they want the "right before publication" version.

22:30 < ioerror> We do not need to hire a CIA person who will do prepub review with the CIA before blogging for CIA people to find Tor useful.

22:30 < ioerror> mikeperry: ^

22:30 < Runa> DaveC1: also, someone asked on the list why you didn't want until you could disclose you were with the cia before joining tor.

22:30 < DaveC1> BUt that's kind of funny because that means revealing stuff that might get REDACTED to your editors...

22:30 < ioerror> DaveC1: how does Tor benefit from having a bridge-of-understanding between Tor and the CIA?

22:30 < mikeperry> I have no doubt that the CIA would find Tor useful, and its funding would not comrpromise us, but as I said then, the optics would be so bad that the et improvement to Tor from such funding would not be worth the bad PR

22:31 < ioerror> mikeperry: Funding does compromise us

22:31 < ioerror> I am clear on that now.

22:31 < ioerror> Tor is compromised.

22:31 < mikeperry> and I think this is sadly a case where that is also true

22:31 < ioerror> When we are paid to work on a browser rather than anonymity improvements of Tor HS, we are co-opted

22:31 < ioerror> It is a faustian pact

22:32 < mikeperry> our funding model is shit. that is compromising us. we're run like a consulting company with little control or ability to respond to changing circumstances

22:32 < ioerror> When we set the road map and found funders to fund us, it was different

22:32 < ioerror> we haven't done that for a long time

22:32 < ioerror> The money has corrupted us

22:32 < mikeperry> it's the type of contracts we get that is causing us most of this pain

22:32 < ioerror> And now, we're hoping for influence

22:32 < DaveC1> mrphs: I understand that. I sure as hell don't want to put anyone at risk. But Tor telling this story is way better than if it gets leaked, which I think it will.

22:32 < ioerror> That is my line.

22:32 < mikeperry> we have no real freedom in our direction

22:33 < mikeperry> and I think that would also be true if we got foundation funding as pay-per-deliverable instead of just open grants

22:33 < DaveC1> ioerror: Sorry, bridge-of-understanding? I'm not sure what you mean there. Can you unpack?

22:34 < sekritarma> ioerror: when was it that we set the roadmap and found funders to fund it? it is a great plan, but i think we never did that. we always went with whoever we could find to fund something we wanted to do.

22:34 < sekritarma> ioerror: and mike is right that our current funding model is one of our big problems

22:34 < ioerror> DaveC1: Could you tell me about your feelings related to the collateral murder video?

22:34 < sekritarma> ioerror: and that's why i want so much to fill the press manager, donations manager, project manager spots well

22:35 < DaveC1> Runa: re: the not waiting until I could disclose. Didn't have the financial resources to end one career and wait (unsure how long) to start looking for other work. I tried to be as clear as possible with Roger what my situation was without committing a felony. I obviously failed.

22:35 < ioerror> sekritarma: we did that long ago and yes, we have problems with funding - let us discuss that in another thread

22:35 < ioerror> DaveC1: what do you bring to the table with eight years at the CIA?

22:35 < ioerror> DaveC1: that is my question, what bridge of understanding, as mikeperry puts it, do you bring?

22:35 < ioerror> DaveC1: if you used State as a cover, what do you know about state?

22:37 < ioerror> Did you ever work on surveillance programs?

22:37 < ioerror> Did you ever deploy surveillance programs relating to biometrics?

22:37 < Runa> DaveC1: sekritarma didn't communicate with the rest of the community, but I guess he was not allowed to.

22:37 < ioerror> Did you read the snowden documents? (ie: do you read classifed documents that are leaked to the press)

22:38 < sekritarma> runa: hm?

22:38 < DaveC1> ioerror: Re: the collateral murder, Yes. I saw the video. As I told Nima, I was sad to say that I didn't see anything at all surprising. I heard talk like that on a regular basis. And I saw fire missions (air and artillery) sent based on reports that were panicked and nonspecific and killed civilians.

22:38 < DaveC1> We killed a lot of civilians.

22:39 < DaveC1> We tried to minimize it. But that's what happens.

22:39 < DaveC1> Nima said that made him sad. It makes me sad too.

22:39 < DaveC1> I haven't forgiven myself for it. I don't plan to.

22:40 < DaveC1> ioerror: I can't talk about any programs that I worked on. (yet? I guess? Still figuring out how that's going to work. Might be good to get some ACLU lawyers to help me figure out how to do this and not go to jail.)

22:40 < DaveC1> ioerror: I can't talk about cover.

22:41 < mrphs> DaveC1: (re: financial resources) dude really? Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time digest this... so you've decided not having a pay check for a month or two is more important than lives of people.

22:42 < mrphs> and you're also sad for taking lives of people.

22:42 < ioerror> ...

22:42 < DaveC1> mrphs: I mean, not to be the inclusion guy again, but check your entitlement. It's a big deal to end one a career and have no idea of how you'll pay your bills, take care of your family.

22:42 < mrphs> I think im having a panic attack

22:43 < DaveC1> And, I mean, again. I was joining an organization started by a NSA veteran.

22:43 < DaveC1> THat's the part that's still really confusing to me.

22:43 < ioerror> DaveC1: Roger's internship at the NSA is not the same kind of veteran who helped invade iraq

22:43 < DaveC1> How is it WORSE to have an organization started by an NSA vet who also has a contractor who used to be CIA.

22:44 < ioerror> Also, check your entitlement? are you kdding?

22:44 < ioerror> Are you aware that for mrphs that his family will be murdered in iran?

22:44 < ioerror> That isn't a joke

22:44 < ioerror> He has no passport

22:44 < ioerror> He has no ability to work

22:44 < Runa> what the what?

22:44 < ioerror> He is in exile

22:44 < DaveC1> ioerror: So, um, remember when I was talking about how I heard things sometimes that kind of sounded like anti-veteran discrimination?

22:44 < DaveC1> ioerror: That's what I'm talking about.

22:44 < ioerror> I'm against war crimes

22:44 < ioerror> That has nothing to do with being a veteran

22:44 < DaveC1> ioerror: So am I.

22:45 < ioerror> The iraq was was illegal

22:45 < ioerror> the CIA operates illegally in foreign countries

22:45 < ioerror> As it stands now, we're all about to violate the US law about agent identities

22:45 < ioerror> (thanks a lot covert action magazine)

22:46 < ioerror> Furthermore if you're going to talk about discrimination, I'd like to talk about responsibility.

22:46 < ioerror> To talk about these things is not discrimination.

22:46 < ioerror> to hold a view that is counter to your actions, which you can't even tell us about anyway, is not discrimination

22:47 < ioerror> I have a lot of respect for Paul from the NRL and for many people who fought in many wars

22:47 < ioerror> I have very different politics than most people comprehend

22:47 < ioerror> My compassion for mrphs is unending

22:48 < Lunar^> quick drop-by; it seems to be a terrible timing; got suicidal a few days ago; mostly been avoiding computers since; and i'll continue to do so until i feel standing on firmer grounds

22:49 < ioerror> Lunar^: <3

22:50 < ioerror> DaveC1: Please do elaborate on your feelings of being persecuted and discriminated against as from where I stand, I understand what the CIA does better than anyone else here, except you

22:50 < Lunar^> i wish you all strength and whatever's needed to keep the boat afloat

22:50 * isis disappears to go hang out in magickal crypto-implementation code-review land until the dust from the dramabomb settles to more productive conversation

22:50 < asn> Lunar^: tor world has been quite crazy lately :) stay in real life for now and be well :)

22:50 < ioerror> I have friends who have been tortured, one friend had a friend who was droned to death

22:50 < Runa> Lunar^: let me know if there's anything I/we can do to help.

22:51 < ioerror> so super happy to hear how our politics migh tbe discrimination

22:51 < mikeperry> asn: if you'd like a distraction, I just replied to Aaron on tor-dev in the HS thread

22:51 * helix hugs Lunar^

22:51 * ioerror hugs Lunar^

22:51 < isis> Lunar^: ? feel well

22:51 < sherief> Lunar^: Don't worry about any work related issues.

22:51 < mikeperry> asn: I am using that as my distraction from the dramabomb as well, currently

22:51 < asn> mikeperry: :)

22:51 < mikeperry> we can chat in #tor-dev if you want

22:51 < ioerror> mikeperry and isis - by not participating in this, I'd like to remind you that you're actually part of the problem with tor's hiring process

22:51 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm as entitled as the next guy. I'm not going to starve if this doesn't work out. But the things you're saying create an actively hostile work environment for veterans. Or veterans who served in Iraq (which, given the deployment rate, is effectively all veterans). I'm not going to not call out discrimination when I see it.

22:52 < mikeperry> ioerror: I feel like right now you're kind of on a witch hunt. I also don't think obsessing over this right now is healthy. I need some space to think

22:52 < ioerror> DaveC1: The CIA creates a hostile work environment for our users and now, apparently, Tor itself

22:52 < DaveC1> ioerror: And if the consensus is that the best thing for Tor is for me to go, then I'm going to bow to that.

22:53 < ioerror> mikeperry: yeah, a witch hunt - i specifically asked if dave was the guy that made the killing joke (eg: assange) and karen said NO, he did not - she lied to us all and dave just corrected the record (credit to dave here!)

22:53 < DaveC1> But I know the difference between consensus and one person talking a lot.

22:53 < gamambel> Lunar^: *hugs* if you need a place to escape let me know and i'll figure something out. you're always welcome to stay with me and my (non-tech) girlfriend for how long you want in our guest room

22:54 < ioerror> DaveC1: You think that mrphs is talking a lot or that i'm the only one speaking?

22:54 < sekritarma> speaking of veterans, i'm pretty sure i'm not an nsa vet. nobody's ever told me i was. i was a temporary three-month employee, and got no further benefits or anything from it.

22:54 < isis> ioerror: i made my input in the politest manner i could muster. i received feedback and other input, which i now need to calmly think about and process before continuing the discussion.

22:54 < DaveC1> ioerror: I explained in the email that I explicitly did NOT tell that joke. BUt told you that it bothered me that someone ELSE did.

22:54 < isis> ioerror: also, unlike you, some of us *actually maintain software* and enjoying clearing our minds through coding

22:54 < Lunar^> gamambel: i have people handling the situation really well around me, that's also how i can stay offline

22:55 < DaveC1> I'm saying that a statistical distribution curve of discussion would have a large spike at "ioerrer".

22:55 < sekritarma> lunar^: let us know if we can do anything to help!

22:55 < gamambel> ok good

22:55 < ioerror> isis: nicesnipe, call me when 30m people ues your software for every network up

22:55 < gamambel> let me know if and when you need anything Lunar^

22:55 < sekritarma> ok everybody please stop making it all personal.

22:55 < gamambel> even if it's merely some money to get that off your mind

22:56 < ioerror> isis: in any case, my questions are valid, even if you think that it is "drama" to ask for clarity

22:56 < ioerror> isis: and also, thanks for letting me know what you really think, only when the cia shows up :)

22:56 -!- ln5 [~linus@00017a4c.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal

22:56 < isis> i'll be in #tor-dev until the dust settles

22:56 -!- Lunar^ [~lunar@pulpe.poivron.org] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me]

22:57 < ioerror> DaveC1: i'm bothered by a few key things here

22:57 < ioerror> DaveC1: one is that we now have a fallout that is hugely problematic for people like mrphs (and others still)

22:57 < DaveC1> ioerror: Agreed. That bothers me too. That's a big argument in favor of me going away.

22:57 < ioerror> DaveC1: the other is an issue of trust, which is to say, trusting anything said

22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: THough I don't think that that risk is mitigated by me going away. I think me going away looks spooky, like Tor is hiding something.

22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: That's valid. I don't expect trust. Anytime soon.

22:58 < ioerror> DaveC1: the other other issue is this veiled threat about discrimination, which frankly serves nothing

22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm new.

22:58 < ioerror> the other other other issue is this pre-pub review and being cleared, being gagged and so on

22:58 < ioerror> i'm not allowed to sign google's NDA

22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: You think calling out discrimination is a threat? Count on more threats, then. Because I'm going to keep doing that.

22:59 < ioerror> needless to say, the CIA has an NDA that is more serious

22:59 < DaveC1> Right. Now, of course, I'm the only person bound by said NDA.

22:59 < DaveC1> Legally, I'm pretty sure everyone here could go say whatever they want tomorrow with no legal consequences.

22:59 < DaveC1> In US law.

22:59 < DaveC1> (other than me)

22:59 < ioerror> And the other other other other issue is of course public perception far beyond the bodies of mrphs and his family, which may not happen but isn't helping him right now

22:59 < DaveC1> Not a great idea for Tor.

22:59 < ioerror> In US law, we cannot disclose your name

23:00 < DaveC1> Ah. Not true.

23:00 < DaveC1> I'm not under cover.

23:00 < ioerror> the intelligence identities protection act makes it a crime to disclose your name as a CIA agent

23:00 < DaveC1> Look at that, you just found a test for whether I'm undercover.

23:00 < ioerror> Even after you are done working for the CIA

23:00 < DaveC1> You'd be prosecuted if I was.

23:00 < DaveC1> IF I was undercover. I'm not.

23:00 < ioerror> That isn't a bet I want to take, as you can imagine.

23:00 < DaveC1> I mean, I'm pretty sure that's true. I'm not a lawyer.

23:00 < DaveC1> (AcLU probably knowsn)

23:01 < ioerror> Yes, I've asked.

23:01 < ioerror> I asked for unrelated reasons last year.

23:01 < DaveC1> I see.

23:01 < ioerror> I was followed by FBI people under cover in berlin.

23:01 < ioerror> I have their fingerprints.

23:01 < ioerror> If i disclose them and their names, I would go to jail.

23:01 < ioerror> Even if they're done now.

23:01 < ioerror> And not because of that job but because they're special for life.

23:02 < DaveC1> Huh. That's surprising as FBI is not an intelligence agency. Of course I defer to ACLU.

23:02 < ioerror> So, this is a very very dangerous situation for many of us.

23:02 < ioerror> the FBI is law enforcement and intelligence

23:02 < DaveC1> ioerror: Understood. I'm right there with you.

23:02 < ioerror> They often operate abroad, including in iraq, as you probably know.

23:03 < DaveC1> Well, I'm not a lawyer. Defer to ACLU, of course.

23:03 < DaveC1> Re trusting me.

23:03 < DaveC1> I'm not asking for that.

23:03 < ioerror> Well, we are supposed to trust you.

23:03 < ioerror> I understand you represented Tor on Friday at the FPF event.

23:03 < DaveC1> Really? How?

23:03 < DaveC1> "represented" meaning I was Karen's sidekick.

23:03 < DaveC1> And she introduced me to people.

23:03 < ioerror> Thursday, CIA, Friday, Tor

23:04 < DaveC1> Correct.

23:04 < ioerror> Did Karen know you worked for the CIA before or after that?

23:04 < DaveC1> I told her and Roger on the day I was authorized to do so.

23:04 < sekritarma> (oh good, we are back to fact-finding)

23:04 < DaveC1> As soon as I saw them.

23:04 < DaveC1> (saw Karen first)

23:04 < helix> then he told xeni about it, instead of telling any of the 5 or so tor people he saw this weekend in DC

23:04 < Runa> DaveC1: why didn't you tell me at this event?

23:05 < ioerror> So, Karen knew first

23:05 < ioerror> So again Why would Tor want to hire a CIA agent factoring in the considerable downside

23:05 < DaveC1> Runa: Griffin asked what was up. I told her "let me tell Roger first?, is that OK?" I would have told you the same.

23:05 < DaveC1> ioerror: Karen knew on Friday. Long after the contract was signed.

23:06 < helix> we all saw you after you told roger

23:06 < DaveC1> her should be him

23:06 < helix> but you told xeni instead

23:06 < Runa> I stood right next to you as you were having this discussion with Xeni, I think?

23:06 < DaveC1> Yes. I wasn't hiding it from you.

23:06 < DaveC1> I had no intention of hiding it from anyone. I wanted that letter to go out immediately.

23:06 < DaveC1> But there were delays. :-(

23:06 < Runa> but you didn't tell me directly either

23:07 < DaveC1> I wanted everyone to know at once, with the email.

23:07 < Runa> but you told Karen and Roger

23:07 < DaveC1> Yes. Wanted them to review the email so I could send that day.

23:07 < sekritarma> to be fair, i wasn't really in a position to drop everything and deal with it then. but then, i hadn't expected to need to be. and i'm a bad bottleneck for everything these days.

23:08 < Julius23> DaveC1: Just one question, why did you not quit your job, waited until you could undisclose the old position, and then apply for a job at tor? Esp, when knowing that is potentially a problem?

23:09 < mrphs> and makes me wonder why the fuck karen didnt tell us anything about it. we were right there!!!

23:09 < Runa> yep.

23:09 < helix> I think it's clear nobody really cared how we would feel about it

23:09 < Runa> word

23:09 < Runa> I'm disappointed

23:10 < helix> I'm disgusted

23:10 < ioerror> where is karen in this?

23:10 < mrphs> and I'm sorry karen, but I'd never ever trust you again.

23:10 < helix> karen knew before anyone else

23:10 < mrphs> I was trying to help you however I could. but you betrayed my trust.

23:10 < mrphs> you betrayed me worse than my enemies and stalkers.

23:10 < Runa> both DaveC1 and puffin could have told us at the event on friday, in person.

23:13 < DaveC1> Julius23: Already talked about that. WHat I did is the standard procedure for folks leaving for the IT industry. You use the resume you're allowed to use. You explain as much as you can your situation. People from the intelligence community usually get it. I overestimated Roger's "getting it". That's on me.

23:13 < Runa> DaveC1: how long does it take to have your resume declassified?

23:14 < mrphs> I still cant understand how you could tell xeni and not us.

23:14 < mrphs> could someone please take my name down the tpo website, I dont want to commit to git

23:14 < DaveC1> mrphs: The email to tor-internal was with Roger for review before I talked to Xeni.

23:14 < mrphs> I'm also revoking my keys

23:14 < DaveC1> I thought it was on its way out.

23:14 < DaveC1> Sorry. :-(

23:15 < Runa> was the deal that roger would send it?

23:15 < weasel> interesting or-internal mail.

23:15 < DaveC1> The deal was that Roger would review it and I would send immediately.

23:15 < helix> mrphs: I'll handle it for you, but can you please send me a signed mail

23:15 < helix> just for completeness

23:15 < DaveC1> Like Jake, I trusted Xeni to be the right person to tell this story.

23:15 -!- LeHoax [~LeHoax@82-170-233-160.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #tor-internal

23:15 < sekritarma> mrphs: hang on a bit please

23:15 < DaveC1> OK.

23:15 < DaveC1> Talked to Roger and Nick.

23:15 < DaveC1> It's pretty clear at this point that the consensus is that the negatives outweigh the positives.

23:16 < DaveC1> For me coming at this point.

23:16 < DaveC1> I'm really sorry to have caused distress to Tor.

23:16 < weasel> :(

23:16 < helix> bye

23:16 < DaveC1> And to have put folks in this situation.

23:16 < DaveC1> We still need to manage the story.

23:16 < DaveC1> I'm gonig to withdraw and go do something else.

23:16 < Runa> you put tor in that situation

23:16 < helix> we, not you

23:17 < ioerror> we, indeed

23:17 < DaveC1> Runa: Sorry. I really didn't think that it would be a big deal since Roger was NSA.

23:17 < sekritarma> well, we have a thing to manage, and dave does too, and then some of it should be done together.

23:17 < weasel> that was quite a short stay then.

23:17 < Runa> DaveC1: for a few weeks way back when

23:17 < weasel> I'm not in a state to properly judge things, but sorry to see you go that soon

23:17 < mrphs> sekritarma: I'm sure you understand I cant risk the story coming out.

23:17 < ioerror> dispite this nonsense by mikeperry as being a witch hunt, I would really like to point out that this is a failure of tor as much as anything

23:17 < DaveC1> Runa: Yeah. Sorry.

23:17 < ioerror> also, i would really like to know the answers about being gagged

23:17 < mrphs> sekritarma: not only my own life, but so many other iranian activist rely on me.

23:18 < mrphs> sekritarma: I'm responsible for their lives too.

23:18 < ioerror> mrphs: what is the bst thing to do?

23:18 < DaveC1> I'm still going to work with Xeni to tell the story so we can be transparent. I'll still run it by tor-internal.

23:18 < DaveC1> We'll do it together.

23:18 < mrphs> ioerror: I dont fucking know anymore.

23:18 < mrphs> if a tor-cia story gets out

23:18 < mrphs> im done

23:18 < mrphs> for good

23:18 < ioerror> if only we knew someone who could help us with iran, eh?

23:18 < ioerror> the f-ing irony

23:18 < sekritarma> mrphs: what would you think of a story about how a person tried to do the right thing, but brought too much baggage from the intelligence community, and how tor is trying to be many things for many people but this one was too far, and we missed a great opportunity, maybe, but this was the smarter thing to do?

23:19 < mrphs> from tor and all other activities I'm involved

23:19 < mrphs> im so fucking shaking right now

23:19 < ioerror> DaveC1: if you go to xeni and publish it, it sure looks like you're using tor for your own benefit

23:19 < ioerror> DaveC1: do you have any thoughts abou tthat?

23:19 < sekritarma> mrphs: the other version of the story is the simpler "person tries to become tor person, but misrepresents himself, and tor backs out"

23:19 < weasel> sekritarma: was it?

23:19 < DaveC1> ioerror: It IS going to get leaked ,I have little doubt of that.

23:20 < mrphs> sekritarma: only if iranian intelligence community and IRGC was sane and rational

23:20 < DaveC1> ioerror: Is there someone you trust more than Xeni to tell the story?

23:20 < sekritarma> weasel: was it a great opportunity? i'd like to live in a world where intel people can defect to free software communities. but i don't think tor is strong enough right now to be the first.

23:20 < weasel> sekritarma: was it the smarter thing to do.

23:20 < sekritarma> weasel: oh. well, read the thread i guess. please form your own opinion.

23:20 < weasel> I just came home after a night out with friends.

23:20 < weasel> so impaired judgement and all.

23:21 * helix would love to be drunk with weasel right now

23:21 < weasel> it seemed like a great opportunity. having a hard time judging people's reactions.

23:21 < sekritarma> weasel: if it is a great opportunity, it will still be a great opportunity in a month or two

23:21 < ioerror> DaveC1: yes, Julian Assange

23:21 < helix> I'd rather spend every free weekend from now until the position is filled looking for a different PM

23:21 < ioerror> That said, there is no story

23:22 < mrphs> sekritarma: iranian intelligence community has already started a campaign against tor, and they wouldnt hesitate personal attacks.

23:22 < weasel> everybody should be a tor person.

23:22 < helix> please tell me with whom I should coordinate

23:22 < ioerror> We hired you under false pretenses, no?

23:22 < mrphs> sekritarma: so many others rely on me and my opsec

23:22 < mrphs> im so fucking done

23:22 < weasel> helix: just stop by. there's beer in the fridge.

23:22 < helix> mrphs: :(

23:22 < ioerror> DaveC1: i'm happy to arrange it with julian

23:22 < ioerror> DaveC1: I have him on the phone, ironically enough for another reason

23:23 < DaveC1> ioerror: I know Xeni. I don't know Julian.

23:23 < mrphs> everything ive worked for during the past 6 years

23:23 < helix> hi julian o/

23:23 < ioerror> DaveC1: I know them both, I can coordinate, as you asked, who else - Julian Assange

23:23 < mrphs> would blow up with such a thing

23:23 < weasel> I'd be curious to map the anti-CIA attitude of US citizens vs. non-US citiziens.

23:23 * mrphs goes afk

23:23 < weasel> the way it seems to me now is that the US people are far more anti-CIA than the non-US folks.

23:24 < weasel> which seems strange.

23:24 < helix> bc people assume we are CIA more easily

23:24 < sekritarma> helix: yes. i think that right there is the crux of it.

23:24 < DaveC1> Guys. I think we're done here. I'm tapping out. I'll coordinate the blog post with tor-internal.

23:24 < sekritarma> i'm not at all worried about the actual reality of how it would work. i am very worried about the external image thing.

23:24 < helix> sekritarma: yeah

23:24 < DaveC1> I'll answer questions if anybody has them.

23:24 < DaveC1> Going forward.

23:25 < ioerror> DaveC1: I'm sorry but are you going to take me up on the offer?

23:25 < ioerror> I can't believe you asked and now you're not even taking it seriously?

23:25 < weasel> .oO( "what's the single most improtant change we should do to improve our opsec" )

23:25 * Phoul gives everyone a big hug.

23:25 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm having trouble understanding what Julian brings to the table?

23:25 < ioerror> (julian is actually on the phone, should I ask him?)

23:25 < ioerror> Julian is the person I trust most in the world

23:25 < ioerror> He is the most famous journalist, after glenn

23:25 < DaveC1> Would he simultaneously publish the blog post?

23:25 < DaveC1> I'm not looking for most famous.

23:26 < DaveC1> I'm not looking for fame. :-( I was looking to help Tor.

23:26 < ioerror> that's fine but hey, if we're going to publish about the future, I want to make sure we get it out in the right channel

23:26 < ioerror> boingboing is good but wl has more reach to the people that will be murdered as a result of this news

23:26 < DaveC1> Do you not think that Xeni is the right channel?

23:26 < ioerror> or not, if wl tells it

23:27 < ioerror> Julian says he would be happy to help

23:27 < ioerror> I didn't tell him any of the details.

23:27 < DaveC1> So, um, you think that Xeni publishing it instead of wl will result in people being murdered? You're gonig to have to unpack that for me a bit.

23:27 < sekritarma> i also think from our perspective it would be fine for julian to do this, but from dave's perspective that sure would be foolish of him, right?

23:27 < ioerror> So, if you want to publish, wikileaks is happy to collaborate with an ex-cia person coming out to the free world, ig uess

23:27 < mrphs> (if any of you can read farsi, or if google-translates help any: isna.ir/fa/news/93060301910/%D9%85%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B1%DA%AF%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B3%DB%8C )

23:27 < weasel> hugs to all of you,

23:28 < weasel> and good night.

23:28 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm not a leaker. That's not the only way that IC vets can help freedom. If I use Julian, that'll be the assumption. That's problematic.

23:28 < DaveC1> It needs to be NORMAL for IC people to come work for net freedom and civil liberties.

23:28 < weasel> don't lynch anyone and be nice to all.

23:28 * Phoul gives weasel another hug

23:28 < Phoul> Sleep well

23:28 < asn> weasel: good night you crazy rodent

23:28 < DaveC1> Not a catastrophic event that ruins the officer's life.

23:28 < mrphs> the title says: "the footprint of intelligence community in Tor project"

23:28 < weasel> asn: weasels are *not* rodents!!11

23:28 < weasel> eleven.

23:29 < asn> oh...

23:29 < DaveC1> Tapping out, guys. Wish you all well.

23:29 < ioerror> DaveC1: Wikileaks isn't always about leaking, as you must be aware

23:29 < DaveC1> You'll see my blog post.

23:29 < DaveC1> Draft.

23:29 < weasel> (order carnivorra or something)

23:29 < ioerror> DaveC1: that said, I'm sorry to hear that you've taken this path

23:29 < sekritarma> ok, dave's laptop is out of power. i'm going to write a followup to the mailing list.

23:29 < ioerror> wait, you're with him?

23:29 < sekritarma> i think it is worthwhile to continue discussing this in the context of a bonding experience.

23:29 < ioerror> what the fuck is going on?

23:30 < Runa> wtf

23:30 < helix> :|

23:30 < sekritarma> yes, i am sitting in ballston sq since rachel is in town for nsf.

23:30 < Runa> ... so you could have invited people in dc to talk

23:30 < Runa> not sure it would have made a difference on my part, though

23:30 < ioerror> I'm losing my faith here.

23:30 < weasel> because people talk IRL?

23:30 < ioerror> I'm going to take the week off everyone

23:31 < ioerror> mrphs: if you need help, please tell me

23:31 < ioerror> mrphs: if you need to get your family our of iran, please tell me

23:31 < ioerror> mrphs: i will get them out with my own money if you need it

23:34 < infinity0> DaveC1: didn't read through everything, so maybe someone already mentioned this. but if you want to do something good for net freedom, you can try different paths to build up trust. it will take a lot of time to "make up" for the fact that you worked for CIA for that long.

23:34 < infinity0> thanks for stepping down though. what will happen with the media?

23:35 < sysrqb> Lunar: <3 *hug* please let us know ifwe can do anything for you

23:35 < Runa> infinity0: afaik he's moving forward with the boingboing piece

23:35 < infinity0> what will that boingboing piece say?

23:35 < infinity0> i have about 5 more screens to read, i can shut up for now

23:35 < sysrqb> mrphs: :( let us know if there is *anything* we can do for you

23:36 < Runa> infinity0: I'm not sure what the angle is, DaveC1 says he will share it with tor-internal for review.

23:36 < sysrqb> mrphs: but please don't think karen betrayed you. i (want to) believe it was a lack of understanding the circumstances, and it wasn't intention

23:37 < sysrqb> but...WTFOMFG

23:37 < ioerror> sysrqb: i feel betrayed here - i explicitly asked if DaveC1 was the guy who told me the assange killing thing and she said no, absolutely not, and that he said no - but now, he has said yes - so who to trust here?

23:37 < Runa> sysrqb: we were all at the same event in DC on Friday, Karen could have told us.

23:37 < ioerror> sysrqb: i mean, really, wow bad news puffin :(

23:37 < ioerror> and yeah, bonding experience

23:38 < sysrqb> idk dude, idk

23:39 < helix> sysrqb: she sat right there with all of the tor people around her in person and chose to keep his secret rather than tell us

23:39 < helix> who's her real community?

23:39 < helix> I also feel betrayed

23:40 < Runa> I stood next to him as he talked to xeni, and he didn't turn around to include me in the discussion and tell me

23:42 < ioerror> so, mrs. Lincoln how was the theater?

23:42 < ioerror> ...

23:42 < sysrqb> obviously i don't know jack-shit about what happened there, but I don't want us to fall apart because of it :-(

23:43 < asn> i feel a bit stronger tbh

23:43 < helix> asn: how so?

23:43 < Phoul> ^ this... and based on the various lies / half-truths he seems to have told, it seems he may be untrustworthy outside of the CIA context.

23:43 < asn> at least i was reminded that most of tor is insane

23:44 < helix> insane how?

23:44 < asn> it was interesting to see so many people distressed at this.

23:44 < Runa> more interesting to see who hasn't distressed

23:44 < helix> I felt the opposite

23:44 < helix> as Runa says

23:44 < sysrqb> but i don't know how to help mrphs and others who this has serious impact for

23:44 < helix> I can't tell if I am "so distressed" bc I'm no longer paid by tor and feel total freedom to speak my mind

23:44 < asn> (btw, i haven't read IRC backlog)

23:44 < sysrqb> (sorry ioerror, i know I already can't help you much :( )

23:45 < helix> or if people legitimately don't give a fuck

23:45 < asn> (neither the full thread)

23:46 < sekritarma> ok, sorry, was having a conversation with him. now that's over.

23:46 < sekritarma> i scheduled the trip to dc because i have a meeting on wednesday for sponsorf

23:47 < sekritarma> and i came early because rachel is here for an nsf thing and i don't see her

23:47 < sekritarma> and then it was a nice coincidence that i could help dave get oriented

23:47 < sekritarma> and then boom, the phone call on friday

23:47 < sekritarma> and here we are.

23:47 < ioerror> so, uh, CIA agent in tor

23:47 < sekritarma> hopefully it was a bonding experience here at least. as well as stressful.

23:47 < ioerror> i'm starting to warm up to the idea if he can finally get everyone in tor to realize the board we're playing on!

23:48 < ioerror> just kidding!

23:48 < mikeperry> asn: I am not as distressed by the idea of a CIA pm as I am by what the rest of the world will think. I think DaveC1 could have done a great job, but that regardless of how good a job he does, we're likely putting Tor in jeapordy :/

23:48 < Runa> some bonding experience that was.

23:48 < ioerror> thoughts going forward?

23:48 < Runa> open call for pm and include -internal in the process

23:48 < ioerror> sekritarma: any thoughts about your conversation?

23:48 < ioerror> sekritarma: we weren't there, so i guess i'll just ask - can you share it or does it go to pre-pub review first? ;-)

23:49 < Runa> I can neither confirm nor deny

23:49 < atagar> I'm in the minority of said 'didn't distress'. Personally I really hated seeing DaveC1 raked over coals like this though it certainly does seem unwise to proceed with it. Partly because of the PR 'zomg' issues and partly because it's clear there's a sizable group who found this distressing. Hat's off to DaveC1 for backing out and I wish the best for him.

23:49 < sysrqb> *big sigh*

23:50 < sekritarma> yes, i can share it. i talked about lots of things.

23:50 < sysrqb> personally, i wish ex-IC could come here and make a real difference. otoh, it is literally suicide for Tor.

23:50 < sekritarma> current plan is for him to write up some bullet points and share them with us and we can help try to pick the direction of the boingboing thing.

23:51 < sekritarma> also it might be best for him to write one and us to write one. since there are some things he can't say.

23:51 < sekritarma> really, our #1 priority here needs to be not getting any of that cia smell on us

23:51 < sekritarma> given that we are where we are now

23:51 < sekritarma> sysrqb: yeah. i want to live in a world where that can happen. but i don't want us to be first.

23:51 < ioerror> sekritarma: why boingboing?

23:52 < ioerror> I've already reached out to xeni

23:52 < ioerror> I want to make sure that we're not getting played by this guy against xeni

23:52 < sekritarma> i dunno. because he talked to xeni. we could totally make it different. or not do that.

23:52 < ioerror> i trust xeni

23:52 < ioerror> Julian offered

23:52 < ioerror> WL will be happy to publish this story as an exclusive, non-leak

23:52 < sekritarma> you realize that dave can't go to julian without getting the leaker smell on him (same as above)

23:52 < sysrqb> and how can we do this an not destroy iranian dissidents?

23:52 < ioerror> happy to take that deal

23:53 < ioerror> if it saves mrphs's family, I'm happy to let some people get the right idea

23:53 < sekritarma> i'm sure you are. this guy doesn't want to do that. i can't blame him for not wanting to destroy his life. especially since he doesn't have anything that juicy.

23:53 < sekritarma> simply "i disagree with some of the things my government did"

23:53 < ioerror> i want to be clear about mrphs's concerns here

23:53 < ioerror> his concerns are not being addressed

23:53 < sekritarma> wouldn't it be cool if you can say that and not have it be a leak

23:53 < ioerror> and not dealing with them may result in his family being murdered

23:53 < sekritarma> yeah. so, how do we deal with it?

23:54 < ioerror> publish it in a place that makes DaveC1 take the fall before mikeperry

23:54 < ioerror> or mrphs

23:54 < ioerror> or any of us

23:54 < ioerror> and frame it as something other than a leak

23:54 < Phoul> If its the two stories idea, do both stories need to be published by the same person/group?

23:54 < ioerror> if julian is willing to help us, which seems possible, it is good

23:54 < Phoul> (just a thought)

23:54 < ioerror> the alternate is this chat log goes to wikileaks

23:54 < ioerror> which i guess in this set of people is clearly going to happen

23:54 < ioerror> irony of irony, i suppose

23:55 < ioerror> so, what is to be done indeed

23:55 < ioerror> I trust xeni and i trust julian

23:55 < sysrqb> do both?

23:56 < ioerror> I do not think we should be giving DaveC1 a blog post, there is no story yet

23:56 < ioerror> he stays = a story is born

23:56 < ioerror> he leaves because we say no cia = a story is born

23:56 < sysrqb> must be be exclusive?

23:56 < ioerror> what other stories?

23:56 < sysrqb> must it*

23:56 < sekritarma> oh, speaking of which. one of the last things we discussed was not using his name in the story. he doesn't want to get famous here.

23:56 < sysrqb> well, i think it's clear it'll be the latter story, now

23:56 < sekritarma> so you're right, there are a lot of options on how to proceed from here.

23:57 < sekritarma> i guess the reason to plan here is that eventually somebody's going to talk about "that cia guy we already hired, whew, ha" and then some journalist jerk is going to write it up

23:57 < sekritarma> and we'd be in better shape positioning it ourselves with our own timing

23:57 < sekritarma> hey, not at all speaking of which: jake, what do you think about kate krauss as a press person?

23:57 < sysrqb> very much so

23:57 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh@000170a3.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]

23:57 < sekritarma> (or others here too, i want to hear your opinion)

23:58 < sekritarma> whoops. s/already/almost/. that's a big change to meaning, sorry.

23:58 < ioerror> sekritarma: so, we did hire him

23:58 < ioerror> he said he signed the papers

23:58 < ioerror> karen, who knew he was CIA, introduced him as tor

23:58 < ioerror> at that event, i was told by people, that we had hired a cia guy

23:58 < ioerror> so, people knew and contacted me

23:58 < sekritarma> he didn't hire him. we signed a six-month contract with him to deliver deliverables.

23:58 < ioerror> just fyi :(

23:59 < ioerror> ok, we have a cia contractor?

23:59 < sekritarma> we do yes.

23:59 < ioerror> that sounds worse as it sounds like the weakest defense

23:59 < sekritarma> we signed it when we thought he was a different person.

23:59 < ioerror> it sounds like, tor hired cia to manage them

23:59 < ioerror> that is pretty funny

23:59 < sekritarma> yeah, i agree, this is bad. i'm glad we all came to this conclusion.

23:59 < ioerror> project manager indeed :-)

23:59 < sysrqb> as opposed to tor hired state to manage them?

00:00 < ioerror> yeah, state wouldn't be a lot better but at least we can say that we thought he worked in the human rights department of state

00:00 < sekritarma> i have 7 minutes of battery left; so in a bit there will be a brief disappearance where i change locations.

00:00 < ioerror> turns out, that was just a cia cover story

00:00 < asn> fwiw, if this is the way to proceed, i can write an open call blog post tomorrow or so.

00:00 < Julius23> at the moment, the story is still managable: we hired somebody who did not disclose it, after disclosing this he quit bc the community did not agree ...

00:00 < asn> for PMs, that is.

00:00 < ioerror> asn: sounds good to write that

00:00 < Phoul> asn: While im not the best person to help there, feel free to ask if you need anything.

00:00 < sekritarma> helix: actually, i'd like to take you up on the project manager offer you made.

00:01 < asn> Phoul: i'm also not the best person, but I'm not sure how else it will happen :)

00:01 < sekritarma> helix: as for who to coordinate with -- there is no answer for that currently. this is crummy. i guess it's me? because everything's me?

00:01 < Phoul> asn: fair enough, im willing to help with whatever is needed.

00:01 < asn> yep

00:01 < sekritarma> julius23: yep.

00:02 < Julius23> having that on WL would deterioate the situation again.

00:02 < sekritarma> julius23: and as a side note, he would actually have had trouble maintaining his story. because we would have sent him to go meet with our state dept contacts, and he can only bluff so far.

00:02 < Julius23> deteriorate

00:02 < sysrqb> but the sooner we release *something*, either boingboing orWl, or whereever, the better As long as we consider mrphs issues)

00:02 < helix> sekritarma: great

00:02 < ioerror> I think having it on boingboing is seriously hilarious

00:02 < ioerror> i mean, I love boingboing

00:02 < helix> sekritarma: I really do only have weekends for the most part but let's do it

00:02 < helix> do we have a req anywhere?

00:02 < sekritarma> yeah. i assume boingboing is the plan simply because xeni was there

00:02 < helix> I will post it on the blog and begin tweeting

00:03 < ioerror> well, i think julian is here too

00:03 < helix> asn: let's work together on it?

00:03 < asn> helix: yeah let's open a pad?

00:03 < helix> do it \o/

00:03 < ioerror> remember, wikileaks publishing has downsides for the CIA AGENT and not for mrphs

00:03 < ioerror> given that trade off, I'm all for WL

00:03 < Julius23> if (and i'm not sure if we should) we would publish something, we should do this on tor-blog

00:03 < Julius23> not via indirect channels.

00:03 < ioerror> hey speaking of which, if anyone here agrees, leak the chat log to julian? ;-) (I kid, I kid)

00:03 < helix> asn: if you write things I will be able to contribute somewhat during the week and more substantially on weekends

00:03 < sekritarma> helix: https://www.torproject.org/about/jobs-projectcoordinator.html.en is the template to start from. we should try to make it better though with our experience at failure.

00:03 < helix> so for talking to candidates etc

00:04 < helix> thank you, sekritarma

00:04 < sekritarma> helix: ha, you can add a "not undercover" line to it (no actually please don't_)

00:04 < helix> :)

00:04 < ioerror> oh, please do

00:04 < sekritarma> yeah. christ. that was a messy conversation on friday.

00:04 < sekritarma> i'm really bad at firing people.

00:04 < helix> I bet

00:04 < ioerror> please write "you must not have worked under cover as part of law enforcement or intel community, or overtly, frankly"

00:04 < asn> helix: https://pad.riseup.net/p/87Mazw3Jsdfe_pm

00:04 < sekritarma> i had a good talk with george danezis about it on friday.

00:05 < sekritarma> ioerror: i dunno. does that include me? we all say 'oh, nah, that's roger'

00:05 < sysrqb> were you undercover?

00:05 < ioerror> do you consider your internship at NSA as being undercover?

00:06 < sekritarma> ioerror: oh hey, speaking of leaking, dave asked that if somebody here leaks, try not to mention his name

00:06 < ioerror> i'm sorry but ironically, DaveC1 did!

00:06 < ioerror> sekritarma: yes, you mean becuase we all go to prison?

00:06 < ioerror> if we leak his name, it is ten years

00:06 < sekritarma> i wasn't undercover at nsa, no. i was there for three months, it's on my cv, etc. but ioerror said 'overtly'.

00:06 < sekritarma> ok 0% battery left

00:06 < sekritarma> back shortly

00:07 < ioerror> fyi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Identities_Protection_Act

00:07 < ioerror> and sekritarma going forward, i think it is clear overtly has major problems

00:07 < Phoul> ioerror: Thanks, was just about to ask about that :)

00:07 < ioerror> As of January, 2013, there have been only two successful prosecutions involving the statute.[9] In 1985, Sharon Scranage, a secretary in the CIA's office in Accra, Ghana, was sentenced to five years and served eight months, for giving the names of other agents to her boyfriend in Ghana.[10] In January, 2013 John C. Kiriakou, a former CIA officer, who accepted a plea bargain, is serving a prison sentence for disclosing the name of another CIA officer to a reporter.[11]

00:07 < ioerror>

00:07 < helix> contractually, what are our options?

00:07 < ioerror> ^ says wikipedia

00:07 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh@000170a3.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal

00:07 < helix> he has a contract; is there a legal way to end it?

00:08 < ioerror> sekritarma: what do you mean, you're really bad at firing people?

00:08 < Julius23> helix: sure

00:08 < asn> 6 months contract or so is what i've heard

00:08 < ioerror> who would be fired?

00:08 < ioerror> what?

00:08 < Julius23> helix: both parties throw the contract in pieces :)

00:08 < helix> I think he means firing david

00:08 < helix> Julius23: ok

00:08 < helix> asn: saved o/

00:08 < helix> Julius23: but what if one person doesn't want to end it

00:08 < ioerror> but we didn't fire david?

00:09 < ioerror> i don't understand?

00:09 < sysrqb> i think he is leaving

00:09 < helix> oh, I think we did now, but not at first when roger found out

00:09 < Phoul> Isnt there something in the contracts that allows the issuing organization to terminate if the person falsely "sold themselves" (for lack of a better phrase).

00:09 < Phoul> I feel like there was, but its been a while since I read it.

00:09 < Julius23> helix: can only speak for german law, there should be something called "rescission" in American law too ...

00:09 < helix> yeah, ok

00:09 < helix> glad to have a lawyer on board :D

00:10 < helix> another one, I mean

00:10 < helix> Julius23: not sure if I ever mentioned how happy I am that you joined!

00:10 < helix> it was great having you at the dev mtg(s)

00:10 < Julius23> *blush*

00:11 < helix> asn: cool cool so let's figure out which are the actual requirements for this job, which teams they would be managing etc

00:11 < helix> I need to go home

00:11 < helix> today has been hella stressful

00:12 < helix> ttyl

00:12 < ioerror> <3 helix

00:12 < Phoul> Have a (hopefully) less stressful evening helix

00:12 < infinity0> laters, it's over now at least

00:12 < infinity0> well, part of it

00:13 < infinity0> i agree that the story is manageable in terms of wider PR, though i don't know the specifics of mrphs' situation

00:13 < asn> helix: you think this info will need to be on the open call, eh?

00:13 < asn> helix: the precise things he is expected to manage?

00:14 < infinity0> i can promise not to mention this outside of the channel but i suppose "hope it won't get out" isn't so re-assuring for others

00:14 < Phoul> I think we need to hear more from mrphs (if hes willing to share) about his situation, so we dont accidentally do something that puts him / his family in danger..

00:15 < Phoul> Unless someone already knows the specifics of his situation (I do not).

00:15 < ioerror> I think this chat channel needs to be logged and sent to #tor-internal for everyone who didn't see it

00:16 < ioerror> if anyone objects, I'm sorry

00:16 < helix> you mean tor-internal@ ?

00:16 < ioerror> this is too much to keep to the irc channel, it belongs to tor-internal@

00:16 < helix> I agree

00:16 * Phoul is fine with it, although he didnt say much.

00:16 < helix> may need to specify who the nicks are, but go for it

00:17 < sysrqb> heh, yes, 3 hours-worth of chat

00:17 * helix really goes now, hugs to almost all <3

00:17 < Julius23> helix: *hug*

00:17 < sysrqb> helix: *hug*

00:17 * ioerror hugs all

00:17 < infinity0> ioerror: that's cool, i agree it should be sent

00:18 * Phoul hugs helix and ioerror and everyone else.

00:18 * sysrqb hugs ioerror too

00:19 < mrphs> I didnt really read the backlog since i left, but let me clarify a bit...

00:21 < mrphs> andrew gave an interview while ago, about receiving tips from intelligence communities aka skruffy on bugs => Iranian news agencies turned that into "the footprint of intelligence services in Tor project"

00:22 < mrphs> news going out about a cia person in tor => they will literally try to hunt down all iranians involved

00:22 < ioerror> i understand that, I don't think others do understand that

00:22 < ioerror> please go on mrphs

00:23 < mrphs> this may include bunch of personal attacks on iranian media, arresting or ... my family, or even me, getting accidentally killed here

00:23 < mrphs> also also also

00:23 < Julius23> mrphs: do you live in Iran?

00:24 < mrphs> I'm badly tied with iranian activists outside and inside iran, I cant even tell you how many ppl rely on me for what they do.

00:24 < mrphs> iranian intelligence service has been trying to find something on them for the past 5yrs and they couldnt

00:24 < mrphs> this is gold for them

00:24 < infinity0> would "tor rejected a cia person" be easier for that situation?

00:24 < mrphs> they have all the things they could ask for

00:25 < mrphs> i cant even digest having tor and cia sitting together in a sentence

00:25 < mrphs> (I've already sent helix a signed request, can someone please take my name down the website?)

00:25 < mrphs> i know it's already late

00:25 < mrphs> but i cant really think of anything else

00:26 < mrphs> im in a shock

00:26 < Phoul> mrphs: Sebastian might be the best person to ask there, not sure who else merges website changes.

00:26 < sysrqb> :(

00:26 < mrphs> i've got hit from the people who literally saved my life 5yrs ago

00:26 < ioerror> we're not going to drop you mrphs

00:26 < ioerror> lets think this through for real

00:26 < ioerror> can we get your family out of iran?

00:27 < ioerror> is that an option, given the resources?

00:27 < mrphs> i dont know man, I dont even have a sustainable status here

00:27 < mrphs> i dont even have a fucking valid passport anymore

00:27 < mrphs> i dotn want to add to this drama

00:27 < mrphs> so im quiting tor

00:28 < mrphs> but im worried about my families

00:28 < ioerror> i understand

00:28 < sysrqb> but will that really solve the problem?

00:28 < ioerror> please do not quit tor

00:28 < ioerror> let us figure out the solution

00:28 < sysrqb> we won't stop you if you think it is definitely the best option

00:28 < Phoul> mrphs: I would personally be very sad to see you go, but I wont pretend to understand your threat situation better than you... so please do what you feel is required.

00:28 < ioerror> we need to reduce the total harm here and your family is clearly in danger

00:28 < sysrqb> ut we want you to stay

00:28 < sysrqb> and will help you howeverwe can

00:28 < ioerror> and so, lets figure out how to help you

00:28 < ioerror> i don't give a shit about some blog post about the cia, that can wait

00:29 < ioerror> if we can help you and your family, that matters and should not wait

00:29 < mrphs> i dont think if i actually understand what's going on anymore.

00:30 < Phoul> Might be worth taking a moment and reading backchat, before making big choices.

00:30 < mrphs> im sorry but i think is hould go offline

00:30 < sekritarma> mrphs: don't do anything rash. we should indeed think this through.

00:30 < sekritarma> (also, i'm back, can continue to answer questions)

00:30 < mrphs> sekritarma: it'd be very helpful if we could meet.

00:30 < mrphs> I'm not sure if it's worth your time tho

00:31 < sekritarma> mrphs: what's going on is that we really needed a project manager, we used our network to find one, they turned out to not be a good fit, so we decided not to move forward with that

00:31 < sysrqb> ^

00:31 < sysrqb> (sorry, lag...)

00:31 < mrphs> I totally understand that

00:31 < sekritarma> mrphs: yes, i can meet. tonight is doable. also tomorrow afternoon or evening.

00:32 < sekritarma> and yes, it is worth my time. all of us here are key members of a very important movement. one that is under attack from many directions, and has lots of pressure.

00:32 < mrphs> and we also totally fucked up with not asking it publicly that we need a project manager

00:32 < sekritarma> no, we did ask publicly. we got tom. then we concluded we weren't so good at getting one the "advertise on the website" way.

00:32 < ioerror> indeed, what sekritarma said is true mrphs

00:33 < ioerror> all of us here are key members of a very important movement.

00:33 < ioerror> that includes you mrphs

00:33 < mrphs> :(

00:33 < sekritarma> we're about to fuck up again by maybe getting a press person the same way. which is maybe a great move, or maybe not so transparent and thus bad.

00:33 < ioerror> we will not leave you in danger

00:33 -!- sherief_ [~sherief@197.38.245.114] has joined #tor-internal

00:34 < sysrqb> we don't burn our users, and we defeinitey don't burn each other

00:34 < mrphs> you should do what's good for tor, but it doesnt neccessarily means it'd be also good for me. (or even sina for fuck sake)

00:35 < ioerror> what is best for you is best for tor

00:35 < ioerror> that is our concern right now mrphs

00:35 < mrphs> this domino effect will be really bad for other movements im involve with

00:35 < mrphs> ioerror: i wish i had an answer man

00:35 < sekritarma> mrphs: so, when is good for you to meet?

00:35 < mrphs> sekritarma: anytime you pick

00:35 < ioerror> if you have people in iran that will be hurt this, we can try to help

00:36 < Phoul> mrphs: what would be an acceptable resolution that would convince you to stay / not people people in danger? (Feel free to ignore this if you'd rather just discuss with sekritarma in person)

00:36 < mrphs> sekritarma: i can leave my devices at work and meet somewhere

00:36 < ioerror> if they will be killed, which i think is not unreasonable a fear for such a thing, i think it is important to do something to help them

00:36 < sekritarma> and, i'm sorry we got to go through this this afternoon, but i think me sending a short mail to tor-internal summarizing it would not have been much better, and would also not have resulted in lots of people thinking and learning about it.

00:36 < sekritarma> mrphs: i'm in ballston sq, orange line

00:37 < mrphs> sekritarma: I'll otr you in a min