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Derakon





Joined: 2007-07-02 04:27:16

Posts: 3961

Vested memberJoined: 2007-07-02 04:27:16Posts: 3961

Posted: 2015-03-20 02:10:59 Post subject: PangaeaPanga wrote:

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp



This seemed relevant to this thread. It also touches upon the question of if owning a copy of the original cartridge justifies owning a ROM image.



Personally I would not trust Nintendo's website, or even Nintendo's lawyers on this particular topic. They have a vested interest in making people think that ROMs are illegal. I'm not saying they're wrong, as I lack the legal knowledge one way or another; I'm just saying that I'd rather see a legal opinion from someone who isn't working for a major videogame company.

_________________

- an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python. _________________ Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python. Personally I would not trust Nintendo's website, or even Nintendo's lawyers on this particular topic. They have a vested interest in making people think that ROMs are illegal. I'm not saying they're wrong, as I lack the legal knowledge one way or another; I'm just saying that I'd rather see a legal opinion from someone who isn't working for a major videogame company.

dwangoAC





Joined: 2008-09-14 06:44:59

Posts: 881

Senior Ambassador / Experienced player (877)Joined: 2008-09-14 06:44:59Posts: 881

Posted: 2015-03-20 02:24:52 Post subject: PangaeaPanga wrote:

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp



This seemed relevant to this thread. It also touches upon the question of if owning a copy of the original cartridge justifies owning a ROM image.



That article asserts that "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic." The rest of the text on that page goes to great lengths to minimize the right to have backups and phrases everything as if having a backup that you didn't create yourself is somehow a monstrous offense. Nevertheless, this is why I've tried to maintain a defensible position and why I'm in a bit of a quandary as to how to handle pitching Ikaruga, but I yet again digress and will stop doing so as I've derailed this thread badly enough already. :)



Getting back on topic, I realize Nintendo is struggling due to poor sales and desperate companies can sometimes turn really nasty (SCO vs. IBM over Linux, for example). I hope Nintendo focuses on making the best products it can rather than litigating itself to death.



_________________

You can join the _________________You can join the TASBot community on #tasbot on Freenode IRC or at Discord.TAS.Bot to help with TAS content at events. I am posting TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on live streams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC . If you can help defray charity event travel costs via Patreon.com/dwangoAC my kids and I would be very thankful. That article asserts that "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic." The rest of the text on that page goes to great lengths to minimize the right to have backups and phrases everything as if having a backup that you didn't create yourself is somehow a monstrous offense. Nevertheless, this is why I've tried to maintain a defensible position and why I'm in a bit of a quandary as to how to handle pitching Ikaruga, but I yet again digress and will stop doing so as I've derailed this thread badly enough already. :)Getting back on topic, I realize Nintendo is struggling due to poor sales and desperate companies can sometimes turn really nasty (SCO vs. IBM over Linux, for example). I hope Nintendo focuses on making the best products it can rather than litigating itself to death.

andypanther ⚥

Former player



Joined: 2010-06-30 20:30:32

Posts: 992

Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Posted: 2015-03-20 07:58:42 Post subject:



I'm pretty sure there are other liberal countries like this (although our German neighbors happen to be the complete opposite).

_________________

http://nerdybynerds.ch/



Current project: Gex 3 any%

Paused: Gex 64 any%



There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games. _________________Current project: Gex 3 any%Paused: Gex 64 any%There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games. I think ROMs should definitely be legal in my country if you already bought the game, we have very liberal laws for things like that. Software is a bit more regulated than movies or music, though. But for most things, downloading is ok, but uploading not. The thing that allows ROMs is that you are allowed to have a personal copy.I'm pretty sure there are other liberal countries like this (although our German neighbors happen to be the complete opposite).

Warp





Joined: 2004-03-10 14:47:19

Posts: 7620

Location: Finland Former playerJoined: 2004-03-10 14:47:19Posts: 7620Location: Finland

Posted: 2015-03-20 08:05:29 Post subject: Derakon wrote:

Personally I would not trust Nintendo's website, or even Nintendo's lawyers on this particular topic. They have a vested interest in making people think that ROMs are illegal. I'm not saying they're wrong, as I lack the legal knowledge one way or another; I'm just saying that I'd rather see a legal opinion from someone who isn't working for a major videogame company.



It depends on the jurisdiction. For example in Finland the law is quite (and unusually) unambiguous: Buying a piece of software is completely equivalent to buying a license to use said software. When you have such a legit license, you have the inalienable right to make backup copies, and it doesn't matter if you use the software from its original medium or from a backup copy. The IP owner cannot deny you those rights. (Even if the software came with a usage license that forbids you from doing those things, it would be ineffective. The usage license cannot override the law. And the law explicitly states this.)



If you rescind your license to use the software, eg. by giving or selling the original copy of it to somebody else, your right to use any backups also ends (at which point using them would become illegal.)



If Nintendo is saying that you can't use backups or downloaded ROMs when you own a license to the original, they are just using scare tactics (at least here; of course I can't know the law of every single other country).



Anyway, and as I commented earlier, this however has zero connection to whether you can distribute the material eg. on YouTube.

Scepheo

Player (163)



Joined: 2009-07-16 12:01:20

Posts: 686



Posted: 2015-03-20 09:48:12 Post subject:



And as to uploading encodes of TASes to Youtube: well, the clue's in the title, isn't it? The work on display is the TAS, not the game. There's plenty of case to be made for fair use here: the work is transformative, non-commercial, highly creative and does not compete with or harm the market for the original product. Of course, Nintendo (and possibly other companies) will deny the latter, but That Nintendo page states several things as facts that are generalizations ("The video games are obtained by downloading illegally copied software, i.e. Nintendo ROMs, from Internet distributors."), highly disputed ("Are Game Copying Devices Illegal? Yes.") or baseless assumptions ("If these vintage titles are available far and wide, it undermines the value of this intellectual property and adversely affects the right owner."). Of course, that doesn't mean it's completely wrong, but it does mean that it has little to no juridical value, and is not to be taken as a trusted source of information.And as to uploading encodes of TASes to Youtube: well, the clue's in the title, isn't it? The work on display is the TAS, not the game. There's plenty of case to be made for fair use here: the work is transformative, non-commercial, highly creative and does not compete with or harm the market for the original product. Of course, Nintendo (and possibly other companies) will deny the latter, but they have lost that case before

Warp





Joined: 2004-03-10 14:47:19

Posts: 7620

Location: Finland Former playerJoined: 2004-03-10 14:47:19Posts: 7620Location: Finland

Posted: 2015-03-20 10:25:44 Post subject: Scepheo wrote:

There's plenty of case to be made for fair use here: the work is transformative, non-commercial, highly creative and does not compete with or harm the market for the original product.



Even if you could make a case for the video, I don't think you can make the same case for the soundtrack.



Music is in some way "more protected" than other material. (I don't really understand why that is, but it just is.) You only need to use a few seconds of a copyrighted song in your own production for it to be illegal, even if the entire rest of the production is completely original. Somehow "fair use" of songs is much stricter than for other material.



Even if TAS videos could be legally argued to be fair use in their graphical content, you would still have hard time arguing for the soundtrack to be fair use, especially since many TASes feature entire songs/melodies (but, as said, even a few seconds is enough for infringement.)



Parodies (á la Weird Al) are protected in some jurisdictions, but TASes are not parodies of the music.

Pokota ♂





Joined: 2014-02-05 22:59:21

Posts: 745

Vested memberJoined: 2014-02-05 22:59:21Posts: 745

Posted: 2015-03-20 10:40:36 Post subject: Warp wrote:

Music is in some way "more protected" than other material. (I don't really understand why that is, but it just is.)



1) Copyright law makers and Music labels have been in cahoots since the introduction of the cassette tape player.

2) It's a hell of a lot easier to do unmentionable things to music than to video or even games.

3) (And this is the big one) Pretty much any replayable source of music can replace a copyright holder's approved source, so the laws have to be draconian to be anywhere near effective.

_________________

Adventures in Lua _________________ For a couple of reasons here in the states:1) Copyright law makers and Music labels have been in cahoots since the introduction of the cassette tape player.2) It's a hell of a lot easier to do unmentionable things to music than to video or even games.3) (And this is the big one) Pretty much any replayable source of music can replace a copyright holder's approved source, so the laws have to be draconian to be anywhere near effective.

feos





Joined: 2010-04-17 05:29:12

Posts: 9493

Location: RU Senior Judge / ... / Skilled player (1553)Joined: 2010-04-17 05:29:12Posts: 9493Location: RU

Posted: 2015-03-20 14:45:12 Post subject:



http://www.cmsimpact.org/fair-use/related-materials/codes/code-best-practices-fair-use-online-video#six



_________________

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.



If TASing is meta-play, _________________If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play! Music needs to carry some sort of "new meaning" to be considered fair use. And while for standalone music it's not hard to tell if it gets new meaning by becoming a part of a new installation, game music was supposed to play while you're playing, and TASes add literally nothing to this. But my "personal sense" tells me that only posting game OSTs (standalone) really violates copyright. And it may very well be completely false.

yoshifan

Member



Joined: 2013-09-09 23:00:16

Posts: 35



Posted: 2015-03-22 06:43:57 Post subject:



Nintendo took down the 2012 September and 2012 October Nicovideo TAS rankings. Has anyone been saving these yet?



Edit: For the more recent TAS rankings, go to this list by へいきん: Regarding the larger TAS list MUGG posted: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10580 Nintendo took down the 2012 September and 2012 October Nicovideo TAS rankings. Has anyone been saving these yet?Edit: For the more recent TAS rankings, go to this list by へいきん: http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/35632672



Last edited by yoshifan on 2015-03-22 06:52:54; edited 1 time in total

Spikestuff ?





Joined: 2011-10-12 10:20:02

Posts: 5617

Location: The land down under. Publisher / Skilled player (1221)Joined: 2011-10-12 10:20:02Posts: 5617Location: The land down under.

Posted: 2015-03-22 06:44:39 Post subject:

Looking into this.



(1) January 2011

(6) June 2011

(9) September 2012

(10) October 2012

(7) July 2013

(10) October 2013

(3) March 2014

(6) June 2014 -

2014 Overall Pt 2 -



_________________

WebNations/Sabih wrote:

+fsvgm777 never censoring anything. Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.



Warning: I hate all of you. Especially the DS TASers. _________________ Oh shit.Looking into this.(1) January 2011(6) June 2011(9) September 2012(10) October 2012(7) July 2013(10) October 2013(3) March 2014(6) June 2014 - https://youtu.be/o_nqP5cFswY 2014 Overall Pt 2 - https://youtu.be/EJqy5rRnTrw

yoshifan

Member



Joined: 2013-09-09 23:00:16

Posts: 35



Posted: 2015-03-25 06:25:38 Post subject: For what it's worth, the following Nico TAS rankings are on my hard drive right now:

2013 Parts 1, 2, 3

2014 Parts 1, 3

2014 months 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

2015 months 1, 2



So if further takedowns occur and the creator doesn't re-upload themselves, these videos can potentially be re-uploaded.

yoshifan

Member



Joined: 2013-09-09 23:00:16

Posts: 35



Posted: 2015-04-14 04:38:50 Post subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XboAbx1Noc Are they doing YouTube now as well? The final part of xsHIMEsx's Pikmin TAS got this: "This video contains content from Nintendo, who has blocked it on copyright grounds." (Interestingly, the Nico upload of this is still up.)

Spikestuff ?





Joined: 2011-10-12 10:20:02

Posts: 5617

Location: The land down under. Publisher / Skilled player (1221)Joined: 2011-10-12 10:20:02Posts: 5617Location: The land down under.

Posted: 2015-04-14 05:00:24 Post subject:

Hmm, it looks legit 'cause Nintendo does go by "Nintendo" when taking a video down.

Aqfaq





Joined: 2005-04-08 23:22:02

Posts: 1573

Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!! Vested Editor / Expert player (2384)Joined: 2005-04-08 23:22:02Posts: 1573Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Posted: 2015-04-14 05:16:35 Post subject:







Mothrayas





Joined: 2009-08-14 19:21:55

Posts: 3888

Location: The Netherlands Admin Assistant / Expert player (4376)Joined: 2009-08-14 19:21:55Posts: 3888Location: The Netherlands

Posted: 2015-04-14 09:25:48 Post subject: yoshifan wrote:

Are they doing YouTube now as well? The final part of xsHIMEsx's Pikmin TAS got this: "This video contains content from Nintendo, who has blocked it on copyright grounds." (Interestingly, the Nico upload of this is still up.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XboAbx1Noc



It looks up to me (again) now.



Spikestuff wrote:

Hmm, it looks legit 'cause Nintendo does go by "Nintendo" when taking a video down.



I'd think they would go by "Nintendo Co., Ltd.", as that is the official company's full title.



EDIT: Or "Nintendo of America Inc.", which is what NoA used when e.g. removing SSB3DS leak videos.



_________________

http://www.youtube.com/Mothrayas



<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.



<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits



<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help. _________________ This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help. I'd think they would go by "Nintendo Co., Ltd.", as that is the official company's full title.EDIT: Or "Nintendo of America Inc.", which is what NoA used when e.g. removing SSB3DS leak videos.



Last edited by Mothrayas on 2015-04-14 09:32:55; edited 1 time in total

got4n





Joined: 2011-02-05 13:49:33

Posts: 1417

Location: France Experienced player (768)Joined: 2011-02-05 13:49:33Posts: 1417Location: France

Posted: 2015-04-14 09:29:37 Post subject:



_________________

Current:

Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD

Paused:

N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)

GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)

TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand Yep, it's again back now. :)

ALAKTORN ♂

Player (109)



Joined: 2009-10-19 06:28:15

Posts: 2526

Location: Italy

Posted: 2015-04-14 11:23:43 Post subject:

Aqfaq, take my LOL.

Amaraticando ♂





Joined: 2012-01-10 00:28:50

Posts: 656

Location: Brazzil Editor / Player (174)Joined: 2012-01-10 00:28:50Posts: 656Location: Brazzil

Posted: 2015-09-09 12:11:10 Post subject:



Today,



Quote:

Nintendo is showing its evil side! Recently, they ordered Youtube to erase almost all videos from PangaeaPanga, including a TAS of Item Abuse 3 , which had almost 1.5 million views, just because it was played on an emulator.Today, another Mario player (Swithpalacecorner) received an email from Nintendo, stating crap like that:Quote: However,

please note that this Code of Conduct prohibits you, among other things,

from posting any content using unauthorized software or copies of games.

This includes videos featuring tool-assisted speedruns, which require

making a copy of a game's ROM file, and running the copied ROM through

an emulator.



Be careful, your TAS that you spent months making can be summarily deleted by them...



_________________

November 2020, with Bruno Visnadi) [61%]

Super Demo World 120 exits (2022, with Bruno) [25%, but a bunch of levels broken, expect 1 million rerecords]

Donkey Kong Country 2 (

Youtube - Movies - Userfiles

(updated 2020/08) Super Demo World any% (end of, with Bruno Visnadi) [61%]Super Demo World 120 exits (, with Bruno) [25%, but a bunch of levels broken, expect 1 million rerecords]Donkey Kong Country 2 ( exploring the game /scripting, with p4plus2 _________________ Be careful, your TAS that you spent months making can be summarily deleted by them...

got4n





Joined: 2011-02-05 13:49:33

Posts: 1417

Location: France Experienced player (768)Joined: 2011-02-05 13:49:33Posts: 1417Location: France

Posted: 2015-09-09 15:08:55 Post subject:



_________________

Current:

Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD

Paused:

N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)

GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)

TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand That's crap, Michel Ancel from Rayman 1 looooves TAS! He even sent me a shirt and a dedicated steelbook for my TAS, Nintendo are mean if they do this, altho it's only on Niconico. :/

Amaraticando ♂





Joined: 2012-01-10 00:28:50

Posts: 656

Location: Brazzil Editor / Player (174)Joined: 2012-01-10 00:28:50Posts: 656Location: Brazzil

Posted: 2015-09-09 15:30:21 Post subject:



The



Nintendo has the exclusive right to perform the games publicly or to make derivative works based on the games. [...] we ask that you please remove the video in question from your channel, and confirm that you will not post any videos using unauthorized software or copies of games, distribute or continue work on the modification, or take any other steps that would infringe Nintendo's rights.



Therefore, if Nintendo gets the power, they will delete:

1) Every romhack that modifies the game. SMWCentral is screwed!

2) Every emulator, since they aren't authorized.

3) Dumping the cartridge image in a ROM file is also prohibited.

4) Livestreams/Youtube videos are not possible without an authorization.



_________________

November 2020, with Bruno Visnadi) [61%]

Super Demo World 120 exits (2022, with Bruno) [25%, but a bunch of levels broken, expect 1 million rerecords]

Donkey Kong Country 2 (

Youtube - Movies - Userfiles

(updated 2020/08) Super Demo World any% (end of, with Bruno Visnadi) [61%]Super Demo World 120 exits (, with Bruno) [25%, but a bunch of levels broken, expect 1 million rerecords]Donkey Kong Country 2 ( exploring the game /scripting, with p4plus2 _________________ Notice that it's not only on Niconico, but on Youtube aswell. Not only for romhacks, the encode for the actual SMW TAS was censored.The email is very clear:Nintendo has the exclusive right to perform the games publicly or to make. [...] we ask that you please remove the video in question from your channel, and confirm that you will not post any videos usingor, distribute or continue work on the modification, or take any other steps that would infringe Nintendo's rights.Therefore, if Nintendo gets the power, they will delete:1) Every romhack that modifies the game. SMWCentral is screwed!2) Every emulator, since they aren't authorized.3) Dumping the cartridge image in a ROM file is also prohibited.4) Livestreams/Youtube videos are not possible without an authorization.

feos

Senior Judge / ... / Skilled player (1553)



Joined: 2010-04-17 05:29:12

Posts: 9493

Location: RU

Posted: 2015-09-09 15:58:07 Post subject:



Fuck morons who are unable to produce, and, to keep simulating activity, start taking away all they can take away from everybody. I curse those.



_________________

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.



If TASing is meta-play, _________________If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play! Well, let's ban Internet, culture, and, to insure against further problems, life itself. Do it Nintendo, life is copyrighted, people are using it without your authorization!

Aqfaq





Joined: 2005-04-08 23:22:02

Posts: 1573

Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!! Vested Editor / Expert player (2384)Joined: 2005-04-08 23:22:02Posts: 1573Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Posted: 2015-09-09 16:20:12 Post subject: require making a copy of a game's ROM file, and running the copied ROM through an emulator."



Just like the origin of life does not necessarily require a creator, the origin of a TAS does not require a copy of a ROM. TASes can be made with a txt-editor and TASBot on a console. Yeah, let's ban notepad.exe and TASBot.

This representative of Nintendo is as uneducated as any creationist: "This includes videos featuring tool-assisted speedruns, whichmaking a copy of a game's ROM file, and running the copied ROM through an emulator."Just like the origin of life does not necessarily require a creator, the origin of a TAS does not require a copy of a ROM. TASes can be made with a txt-editor and TASBot on a console. Yeah, let's ban notepad.exe and TASBot.



Last edited by Aqfaq on 2015-09-09 16:49:27; edited 2 times in total

feos





Joined: 2010-04-17 05:29:12

Posts: 9493

Location: RU Senior Judge / ... / Skilled player (1553)Joined: 2010-04-17 05:29:12Posts: 9493Location: RU

Posted: 2015-09-09 16:28:09 Post subject:



http://tasvideos.org/Nach/FairUse.html



_________________

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.



If TASing is meta-play, _________________If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play! What bothers me more is that they break the Fair Use doctrine by their criminal claims.

Mitjitsu ♂





Joined: 2006-04-24 09:05:50

Posts: 2987

Location: A little island Editor / Experienced player (540)Joined: 2006-04-24 09:05:50Posts: 2987Location: A little island

Posted: 2015-09-09 16:28:47 Post subject:



_________________

In Mitjitsu we trust _________________ Nintendo is becoming more like a copyright cartel in recent years, which overall has a negative effect on the community. However, I think it hurts Nintendo themselves, because it means people can't find out about their current, upcoming and existing games.