— It’s been a busy week for Steve Malik, but he’s had few relaxed ones since buying the Carolina RailHawks in October 2015 and entering the madcap world of professional soccer ownership. He owns two teams now, the rebranded North Carolina FC and the North Carolina Courage of the NWSL, and he’s a member of several league and federation boards, including the U.S. Soccer Board of Directors.

Malik spent last weekend in Miami watching the Courage win the inaugural International Women’s Champions Cup. He then flew to Atlanta to attend Major League Soccer’s All-Star Game Wednesday night, along with meetings scheduled around that event. He returned to Raleigh Thursday morning, just in time to swing by the Inverted Triangle Soccer Podcast and discuss the state of his soccer clubs, plus the ICC, USL, NWSL and Raleigh’s MLS expansion bid. The following excerpts were taken from the full interview:

WRALSportsFan: What interesting things took place in Atlanta during your meetings this week?

STEVE MALIK: Oh, a lot of interesting things. The All-Star game was great, went to PKs again. It was a fabulous crowd. I’ve been to Mercedes-Benz Stadium before, so I wasn’t shocked. But every time you go, it’s such a fabulous scene. Also, for me, it’s having a chance to talk with a lot of people, including quite a few people with Atlanta United. Getting to hear Arthur Blank talk about why they’ve been successful, it really helps drill home some key points in terms of philosophy and culture.

WSF: I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask about the experience over the weekend, where the Courage won the inaugural ICC tournament. It was obviously a good achievement for the team, but from a NWSL club owner perspective, what was the tangible benefit, if any, from that event?

MALIK: If any? Geez, man, there’s so many. Just being so proud of the team and their performance. Everybody knows we were there without our full squad, and the surreal experience of being in the final, watching the [U.S.] Women’s National Team on television while my actual field of view was our game. So our players were everywhere. The exposure of playing on ESPN2 and playing some of the best clubs in the world, the way they treated us. It was great to bring sponsors down. And, oh by the way, we won, which is fabulous.

WSF: How far do you think we are away from, let’s set aside a FIFA Women’s Club World Cup, how about just a continental women’s club competition?

MALIK: I absolutely had some of those conversations this week. I’m pushing. I want it to happen. I think it would be great for the women’s game, and I don’t think we stop at CONCACAF. We also look at a world championship. It works for the men; why wouldn’t we do it for the women?

WSF: The North Carolina FC joined USL last off-season. Has the move to USL been accompanied by any off-the-field benefits?

MALIK: Financially, as in expenses. Things like travel. Charleston is coming in here Saturday night, and they can drive up here and we can drive there. Playing Charlotte, Richmond, it’s been great. And players don’t have to travel so much either, so it’s better for them … Being on ESPN+ had been great, with the games of the week they’re doing now. I just came from USL meetings, and the other owners are all focused on their markets.

WSF: There was an article published this week by Nipun Chopra for the website SocTakes.com that tracked the increasing amount of USL expansion fees alongside the league’s increasing profits, which went from six figures per year as recently as 2015 to over $6 million last year. Are the club owners, the USL franchisees, seeing any tangible benefits from USL’s burgeoning profits?

MALIK: I wouldn’t exactly describe them as ‘burgeoning profits.’ They’ve made a lot of investments over the years, so yeah, here comes some expansion fees that are more substantial. There’s not an owner who’s not appreciative when the expansion fee goes up and the value of our franchises increases. I just don’t even view that as burgeoning profit.

WSF: What I mean is … with profits of six figures in 2016 and increasing to over $6 million a year ago, which sounds good, but I’m trying to figure out if that’s translating to the club ownership level?

MALIK: Yeah, they’re making great investments. Just at the league meeting, they had a deeper bench in terms of their management. They brought forward things like exploring opportunities for us that are league-wide revenues. In reducing costs, they implemented a travel program this year. The kinds of things we need a league to be doing so we can focus on our business. They’ve got more office space and hired a lot more people. Do we benefit from that? Absolutely.

WSF: OK, how?

MALIK: Club services, primarily. You and I have discussed how ridiculous [the cost] of workers’ compensation for athletes is in North Carolina. So for [USL] to be able to explore a captive, league-wide plan, that’s not something one club can go do. And so they’re doing a lot of that work all across the spectrum in the way a league should.

WSF: Has NCFC’s bottom line gotten better or worse as a result of the move to USL?

MALIK: We’re going to lose a little less money. So, that’s positive.

WSF: What changes need to take place in order to increase the value of individual USL clubs, short of everyone moving to MLS?

MALIK: I don’t think that journalists are close enough to the balance sheet and the income statement to understand what investments have been made and the payback on those investments. Yeah, I get that there are some clubs that overspend. It’s something that happens; it’s a fact. At the same time, for instance, when franchise values are increasing like that, it’s happening because investors are seeing that it’s worth a multiple on revenue or whatever factor they’re using to value those clubs. If you want to talk about financial statements, it’s can you control your expenses, can you grow your revenues, and can you make capital or other investments that improve your position strategically.

I don’t see a lot of angry owners with pitchforks. I see guys throwing money in because they believe in the sport, and they believe in the long-term value of those franchises.

WSF: Are you, or have you ever, been a proponent of promotion and relegation in American soccer?

MALIK: I like how you used the present and the past tense in that question. Hey, who doesn’t love every game being meaningful? It’s fun and adds a lot of value to those games. As a matter of fact, in my previous involvement with NASL, I was one of the first people to suggest that we work a deal with NPSL and put a plan together for pro/rel to grow those markets to have them turn into higher division markets.

WSF: What happened to that?

MALIK: I’m not going to talk about motions I made in board meetings and resulting votes. It’s funny how some people painted me in that whole scenario. They don’t know anything, really. I think pro/rel is awesome. Now, do I think it should be forced, or do I appreciate investments that other people have made? Being for pro/rel doesn’t mean that I’m as zealous as some folks making a lot of demands with other people’s money.

WSF: There’s been much consternation among NCFC supporters this year about the team’s on-field performance. You’ve seen much of it on social media. As we speak today, the team has won two straight matches, but it’s also spent much of this year mired near the bottom of the USL Eastern Conference table. What else can you do as the team owner to enhance the team’s on-field potential?

MALIK: First of all, take a look at goal differential. We’re doing pretty good, we’ve just had a tough run of things previous to the last couple of weeks. The kind of things that you’re sitting there as the owner saying, you just lost on the last touch in added time when they called a lot of added time and it went even past that. There’s been some of those situations where you’re just like … the ping-pong game! You laughed and others laughed when we had, what, eight shots in thirty seconds and hit the post so many times it got eight million views on social media? It’s been tough, and it’s been tough as a fan.

You ask what an owner can do. I’m lifting these guys up. I’m not going to get down on them. You’re supposed to support your team, and we have a lot of young guys who are growing into their roles … We have shown an ability to run a pretty good club. There are moves you make over the long-term to put yourself in a position to be as good as you can be. That’s what we’re doing—I’m not going to overreact to wins and losses.

WSF: Two years ago, your first as NCFC’s owner, the club crested at an average attendance of 5,000 per home match. Last year, that per game average dipped to just over 4,600. This year, it’s less than 3,800 through 11 home games, ranked 17 among the 24 so-called independent USL clubs. You spoke this preseason about a renewed emphasis on attendance this year, and how that was a factor that not only determined the resources you could put into the team, but also a factor that MLS was looking at in assessing possible expansion. Why is the NCFC attendance down nearly 24 percent in two years?

MALIK: First, I’m going to headline it by saying we want to do better. We have to connect better with the fans, we have to do better on the field. We know we have work to do. That said, for one thing we added a women’s team with 12 [home] games, so you can talk about average attendance, but if you look at total attendance, it’s way up. We added a lot of people who came to a lot of women’s games. I think we have three weekends that we don’t have a game from the middle of March until the end of October. That’s a lot of inventory that we’re putting out there.

WSF: What does that say about the overall soccer market, then, if attendance gets outstretched by adding a women’s team on top of D2 men’s team? Does that mean the market has reached a ceiling?

MALIK: No, it means that we’re cultivating the market. We added a lot in one year, and there are a number of factors where our numbers are way up. I don’t think attendance is the only factor. We’ve done a great job of engaging the corporate community. Our sponsorship numbers are near the top of USL. I can tell you the sponsors had a great time with us in Miami this past weekend, and, oh by the way, they weren’t counting on all those ESPN2 games … We’re going to start a season-ticket campaign with some pretty innovative ideas in a couple of weeks.

WSF: Do you still believe the rebrand to North Carolina FC was good decision?

MALIK: Great decision. I think people have really responded well to it. We’ve done great with our merch sales. The youth club was willing to adopt and get on board with us, and now I’ve got 14,000 kids wearing our jerseys every weekend.

WSF: No high profile friendlies for NCFC this year?

MALIK: Well, speaking of total dollars spent in the market, how about the men’s national team, women’s national team, and, oh, here they come again [in October] for three double-header World Cup qualifiers. That’s not revenue we get, but it’s a lot of revenue that the soccer family is spending for some rockstar, fabulous events. Given that we knew we were hosting the national team multiples times, and we knew we were doing ICC for the women, there just wasn’t a way to get all that done in this market this year. You’ll see us return to that, but not when we have three more double-header World Cup qualifying events coming up.

WSF: Let’s turn specifically to the Courage, where we don’t need to ask many questions about on-field performance. The team will win the NWSL Shield for the second straight year soon. How much do you want to win the NWSL championship this year, especially after how last year’s championship final played out?

MALIK: Take it or leave it [laughs]. There’s no finish line; we’re just going to keep getting better and individuals are just going to keep getting better. We’re going to get it whenever fate deals us that opportunity.

WSF: I don’t believe that from you for one minute. That’s you channeling Paul Riley.

MALIK: Oh, I want to win it badly. I thought you were asking me on behalf of the organization.

WSF: No, I’m talking about Steve Malik.

MALIK: Oh yeah, I want to win. I can’t stand losing at anything, and obviously I feel like the team deserves it … Who can’t love this team? Yeah, I want them to win.

WSF: The average attendance for the Courage this year is roughly the same as last year. By my review, the Courage hosted six Saturday evening matches in 2017; this year, they host only four, and in the two held thus far this year, the team has averaged over 5,000 fans, its best attendances this year. Does the Courage need to increase the number of weekend evening games, and how can it do that within the confines of the NWSL’s existing broadcast deals?

MALIK: We got the short stick on scheduling, no doubt. For one thing, being the [Lifetime] games of the week at 3:30 on Saturday afternoons when so many of our fans are young women who play the game and they’re out playing games with their families. You saw the [attendance] results. And by the way, in starting earlier in the year, because we’re a ‘warm-weather team,’ it wasn’t very warm in mid-March. And we had some really tough weather. When we’ve played on Saturday nights, we’ve averaged about 6,000, and some of those were holiday weekends where we would have done even better. So, yeah, I’m quite wound up about the scheduling. It needs to improve next year, and we, as a league, are working on improving it.

WSF: I’ve asked several guests, including NWSL managing director of operations Amanda Duffy, this question, so I’ll ask you, too: What is the biggest existential issue facing the NWSL and its member clubs?

MALIK: The long-term role of [broadcast] media, the role of US Soccer, and continuing to expand with quality ownership that’s committed to the game and raising standards. Those are three.

WSF: What’s at the top of the list?

MALIK: In my view, particularly as it relates to the NWSL and the women’s game, it’s very hard to isolate one or two of the factors. There are so many pieces that come together, and you have to be making progress on all of them.

WSF: There’s been a lot of talk about the expiring management contract between the NWSL and US Soccer, which ends next year. Here’s what I’d love to clarify: what are the primary issues of negotiation, discussion, or even dispute between US Soccer and the NWSL heading into the next contract negotiation?

MALIK: US Soccer’s got to continue to evaluate its principles and why it has a relationship with NWSL. Look, we know a lot of that is about player development. When you look at the [USWNT] squad that was just picked, I would have loved to have Merritt Mathias playing for us in the ICC. But she’s developed and improved greatly, and is therefore getting call-ups. You look at McCall [Zerboni], who is fabulous but didn’t get a call-up until she was of an age that most people wouldn’t expect to get their first call-up, and she’s getting playing time and playing fabulously. A lot of that, I think, NWSL deserves a lot of credit, and US Soccer is accomplishing what it wants by having a league where its players can continue to play and develop.

Likewise, the NWSL also has its own priorities. It was all over Twitter, so I’m not going to dodge: in particular, taking non-allocated players maybe a little early [into USWNT camp] is something that people commented on. You asked about the schedule next year. We need to work together to make sure the quality of product we’re putting on the field for NWSL is what the fans want. That’s a together-thing with US Soccer. They’re not dispute areas. They have their priorities, as they should, NWSL has their priorities, and we gotta work together to make sure what everybody wants out of the relationship continues to happen.

WSF: There was a rumor on Twitter that there had been discussions between the NWSL and USL about a possible partnership. Any truth to that?

MALIK: Yes, there was a rumor [laughs]. I saw it. Look, I just came from the USL meetings. Are there USL clubs that NWSL is talking to? Absolutely. There are some great fits where, if you build a 10-12,000-seat stadium in an urban area in a top-40 or top-50 market, particularly one that may not have Major League Soccer. If you own that stadium, do you want some dates? Yeah, you want some dates.

WSF: Will there be NWSL expansion for 2019?

MALIK: Well, the league hasn’t announced any … But, we continue to talk to a lot of folks.

WSF: Do you think there’s going to be NWSL contraction in 2019?

MALIK: I don’t expect that. There are some well-documented issues that need to be addressed, but there’s some time for that to be done.

WSF: There’s still no commissioner of the NWSL. Does the league’s Board of Directors/Governors have a chairperson now?

MALIK: Yes. We have a newly formed Executive Committee, and I’m chairing that.

WSF: What’s the purpose of the Executive Committee?

MALIK: Just like in any league, ownership needs to take ownership. We’re aligning on our strategic initiatives and appropriating the right subcommittees to focus on the areas we want to make sure we’re making ground on.

WSF: Like you don’t have enough to do—why did you agree to be chair of the Executive Committee?

MALIK: I felt like—or enough people convinced me is probably a better way of saying—that [the Courage] were in a good position. [The Courage] are independent, in the way people have described ‘independent NWSL clubs,’ and yet we also have men’s and women’s teams. So we kind of sit between those bigger MLS clubs and the clubs that only have a women’s team, so I can certainly understand the perspectives of both of those sides.

WSF: My Facebook memories recently reminded me that we just passed one year since the rally in downtown Raleigh announcing your formal bid for a MLS expansion team. Two of the next four proposed MLS expansion markets have been chosen since then: Nashville and Cincinnati. Raleigh hasn’t had many, if any, recent public updates on its bid. What is the current state of the Raleigh MLS bid?

MALIK: We went after a very challenging location with the state government complex. We cleared many, many hurdles on that. And while we did that, we needed work on infrastructure … We made commitments for another $585 million of development, which brings over $10 million in taxes. Those equations around how the taxes are handled, what role both the city and the county may play, and issues around driving other events, these are just taking time. It’s not worth jumping out and ringing the bell every time we make a little bit of progress. We’re having to bring a lot of pieces together, and I feel great that we’ve made fabulous progress.

It’s been fortunate for us that MLS has taken longer [to choose their expansion markets]. Because they’ve taken longer, I’ve chosen not to burn our brand by pushing things too much and [instead] finding the space and time to talk to people. Nobody wants to come forward publicly with specific details more than I do. But we think that the smartest thing to do is work behind the scenes, make progress, and as things coalesce, in many cases you’ll see other people coming out and talking about the benefits. For instance, people have really gotten their head around other events [for a downtown Raleigh stadium complex]. We’re talking maybe 20 or 30 nights of soccer a year, and now you have this great entertainment center downtown. What else are you going to use it for? We’ve had a lot of conversations about, how many outdoor hockey games might you play? Wouldn’t it be great if the Canes had some outdoor games downtown?

I get that people want more and more information. You can see how we’d want to do that, as well. We just want to be accurate, and when it’s time to really push, push.

I’ll say this last thing about it: the [Carolina] Panthers getting a new owner, who in every interview says MLS—it is time for us to get this [done]. We need to have some serious action in the next six months or so.

WSF: In looking at other recent, successful efforts, it appears a bid market needs, at minimum, two things to become a serious contender in the eyes of MLS: a financed, finalized stadium plan, and additional well-heeled investors. Is that correct, and if so, how far away are you from both?

MALIK: Yes, we need to get a stadium deal done. On the investment piece for that, we’re talking about a huge investment piece. When you commit to building approximately $600 million in additional office space, condos, hotel, ground-floor retail, etc., we’re talking about very, very big numbers. We’ve been talking with multiple people around investment. We’ve got a lot of very interested parties. At the same time, when you have multiple options, it’s a lot harder to nail it down, come forward, and say, yes, this guy is in at this percent. Let’s just say, for instance, that for whatever reason the state government property is just not working and we have to go to a second alternative. It’s a very different deal, particularly everything that you do around it. You don’t think it would be a big difference if, instead of downtown central Raleigh, we were anywhere else?

WSF: I do, but I’d rather hear what you’re hearing on the ground from MLS or even local partners about what the differences would be.

MALIK: I don’t think that one parcel is the only place that works. It’s our preferred, frankly for what it would do for Raleigh. I think it would be ideal. At the same time, I don’t think it’s the only one.

WSF: Is there any other option that would appeal to MLS?

MALIK: There are several.

WSF: And you know that from discussions you’ve had with them?

MALIK: This week.