Sieg Zabi said: I can most assuredly tell you that Jumbos are not "almost unstoppable" at both phase B or C. by phase B all divisions receive some decent anti tank and suppression weapons to deal with the jumbo. The jumbo still suffers from the base 75mm accuracy and pen which are both horrible. The jumbo is a target that can be ignored if you micro your units to shoot at all the other tanks around it. Click to expand...

I think you are right in that the Jumbo is not unstoppable, but I am afraid the gist of this thread is that 12th is being balanced against the Jumbo. What is ignored is that there are other divisions. The 91st has no answer for a Jumbo in phase B except 75 mm acc 6 Pak and Marder. The Hs is a no go as a mustang will shoot down the Hs before it can be killed if the axis has planes with it, just for a *chance* of killing the Jumbo. That is nearly guaranteed 140 points to kill a 200 point unit. If both sides have AA, the axis fighters will be suppressed by Bofors long before the mustang against German 37mm. The 17th is in a similar but slightly better position, as it has the Pak 43 which can kill a Jumbo that turns to shoot at something else at reasonable ranges. But we all know the vulnerability of AT guns that are not heavily micro'd.With good skill a 3rd armor player can beat the 12th with its set piece Jumbo. 91st is helpless and the 17th can count on an ai mistake by presenting a cheap unit for the jumbo to shoot at. Panzershreks? I have watched them launch two rockets at a Jumbo and both bounce. However, an average player like me will lose the Jumbo. Having played at least a couple of games with every division, mostly with 91st and 3rd, I want to say that 3rd Armored is a tough division to play against 12th, but with high skill you can win reliably as the combination of smoke and well placed infantry, and recon, can get you in ranges where a 180 point 76 sherman will kill a 280 point unit.Just want to emphasize that I am scared that this game is going to turn in to a balance argument of armored divisions vs. armored divsions- I predict a huge clusterfuck when the rest of the divisions are released. Doubtlessly there will be several that are very strong. Infantry divisions without heavy tanks or hardcore miscellaneous AT are screwed as current AT guns are far too vulnerable. When the debate is turned in to whether or not the Jumbo or Bef Panther is OP, there are already other divisions that are laid by the wayside. Balancing 3rd vs 12th leaves other divisions out of the picture.If you think the Jumbo is too strong, why not address other parts of the 3rd deck? Such as making armored infantry more expensive etc. Perhaps nerfing the laser halftracks. Same goes for the 12th if you feel they are strong. There are ways to balance a strong unit other than addressing the unit itself. I have played a decent amount of the game as 3rd, but have won and lost against 12th enough to realize that it is not unstoppable. The other axis divisions are an uphill battle from the start against the 3rd.