The 53 year-old former gang-member has spent most of his life in prison and much of it in solitary confinement. He addresses his shame over the harms he caused, surviving prison, getting sober, going back to school and regaining custody of his children.

Episode notes:



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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 441 with my guest, Bobby Martinez. My name is Paul Gilmartin. This is Mental Illness Happy Hour, a place for honesty about all the battles in your heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to simple, everyday compulsive, negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It’s more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. If you haven’t subscribed yet, uh, to this podcast, it would be awesome if you did so. So just click that subscribe button on whatever podcast platform that, uh, you are listening to this. Also, if you could give us a review on iTunes, that would be awesome. All of those things help build the visibility of the podcast, and that brings more advertisers and that helps support the show. And you could also support the show by being a monthly Patreon donor. You can do it through PayPal as well, but if you do it through Patreon, um, you can occasionally get some, some freebie stuff from me.

[00:01:07] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself—And if, if you haven’t filled the surveys out yet, there's about a dozen different surveys. And, uh, people haven’t filled out the happy moments survey in a little while. They don’t have to be big. In fact, the ones that are kind of sublime are a little bit better, I think, because for me, that's a lot more doable, are the little happy moments. The little peaceful moments in life than the big, fantastic ones.

Anyway, if you haven’t done those, go to the web site, mentalpod.com. And then you'll see a li-, a, um, little drop-down menu and it’ll say surveys. And you can either look at the results of other people's surveys or you can fill out a survey yourself.

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Watcha Doin', Nico." And she writes, "Visiting my sister's homeless encampment. I finally had a chance to see where she was living. I was strangely comforted to learn that she had a bed—a mattress in a tent—with sheets, pillows, and a comforter. She even hung some of her artwork. She and her boyfriend gave me a 'tour' of the several tents and rain tarps they had linked together. Found objects like scraps of broken plastic and wood, constituted shelves, tables, and chairs. Of course, there were flies and buckets of what I assumed was human or food waste. A homemade slingshot for 'deterring' rats. But they had made a home. And this was the best option she could find at the time, and she was not alone. She had a partner who clearly cared for her and looked out for her, and they had chosen a location surrounded with similarly situated folk: a community with rules and shared resources. Their tent neighbors looked out for one another, dealt with the 'bad ones,' and warned each other when they saw the cops. I asked questions instead of being in paralyzing fear—which is somewhat new for me. And I learned so much about her that day. Still, such a fucked-up situation which breaks my heart, but so much better than what my imagination had painted. I slept well for the first time in years that night." Thank you for sharing that. And I always … wonder, when I, when I pass a tent, uh, encampment—and there's a lot of them, here in Los Angeles—I just wonder about the lives of the people that are in there. And, um … I should interview somebody.

[00:03:44] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Demps (sp?)." She's … in her 50s, identifies as asexual, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts." She doesn’t elaborate. She's been emotionally abused. "Growing up in an alcoholic family automatically sets you up for emotional abuse. My mother was physically there, but mentally gone and unavailable to me. My first long-term boyfriend as an adult was an emotionally unavailable man. I chose what I knew."

Any positive experiences with the abusers? "Many years after the relationship was over, I was able to realize that I deserved so much better. I realized that what he did to me was abuse. This was a big moment for me." Darkest thoughts: "I don’t know if this classifies on target in this survey, but I would like to see a former boss get swallowed up by a wood chipper." Actually, that's not as bad as you … wanting to see him jam a wood chipper. (Chuckles) "Or a disease, but not before financial ruin. I'm not saying this to be funny. I really do wish this upon her."

Darkest secrets: "I beat up a girl at a concert because she wouldn’t be quiet." You know … I wish I could be outraged by that (chuckles), but people that won't be quiet at movies or just make the concert all about them, uh—In fact, I think if you are on somebody's shoulders at a concert blocking someone vi-, someone's view, you're fair game for being pushed over. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I used to be ashamed that I had sexual fantasies involving other women. Now I know that there's nothing wrong with this."

What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would like to be able to ask my mom why she never said she was sorry to anyone. I would ask her why she was unable to say sorry about anything." You know, untreated alcoholism is, it’s a motherfucker, man. It's rooted in selfishness and fear and resentment and the warped belief that everyone else is the problem. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish I didn’t grow up in an alcoholic home and had a chance to make very strong connection with a female mentor, aka my mother. I wish I had asked my father more about what he wanted in his life and not being a typical selfish teenager." Have you shared these things with others? "I've kept a journal for 30-odd years. I've written these wishes down in a million ways over all the years."

How do you feel after writing these things down? "I'm wondering how my little thoughts could make an impact on anyone." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Try not to care what other people think. In the long run, it only counts if you are happy, as long as you aren’t hurting other people or animals." I think, you know, you wrote, "I'm wondering how my little thoughts could make an impact on anyone." Well, you made an impact on me. I chose to read your survey because I think what you're describing is so human and, sadly, common. And, I know there's a lot people that will read this and relate to it and know that they're not alone. So … that's my two cents. And thank you for, for filling that out.

[00:07:24] Our sponsor for today is Varidesk. It's the world's leading standing desk solution, helping professionals maintain a healthy, active lifestyle in the office or at home. Varidesk converts any desk into a standing desk and is designed with durable, best-in-class materials that fit in any environment or workspace. With Varidesk, you can easily go from sitting to standing, increasing your productivity, focus, and collaboration. Varidesk comes with a 30-day, risk-free guarantee, and there's no assembly required. They also cover shipping both ways, so if you don’t love it, they’ll pick it up. Varidesk is trusted by 98 percent of Fortune 500 companies and has over 14,000 five-star reviews from professionals all over the world. Stay focused on what matters with Varidesk. And to learn more about Varidesk standing desk solutions, visit varidesk.com/workelevated. That's v-a-r-i-d-e-s-k .com/workelevated. Maximize your productivity at varidesk.com/workelevated.

[00:08:27] And, as always, today's, um, uh, episode is sponsored by betterhelp.com. If you’ve never tried online therapy, I'm a big fan of it. and, um, I just love being able to do it on my laptop once a week, sitting in my recliner, spilling my guts and getting, uh, a lot of compassion and … great guidance from my counselor, Donna. So, if you're interested in checking it out, go to betterhelp.com/mental. Fill out a questionnaire and then they’ll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor, if they feel that they have one who is a good fit for you. And then you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:09:13] And then, finally, one more, uh, survey before we get to the interview with Bobby. This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Psycho Mom." She writes, "I was thinking this morning of the time when I was living in Idaho in a little house we rented. I was married to my ex at the time. It was the dead of winter, and we were dirt poor. Too poor to maintain our car to get me to work each day. One day, my husband decided to run off to California with a friend and leave me and the two kids behind to fend for ourselves. My car had no heater, and I had to take the kids to the sitter about 25 miles away.

In order to defrost the windshield, I took a couple of bricks and heated them on top of the wood stove while I got ready for work. Then, I took 'em out to the car and placed them on hot pads on the inside of the car near the windows. After a while, the ice would melt off and I could get to work before they iced up again. Of course, the kids and I had to be bundled up from head to toe. One morning, I awoke to find two feet of new fallen snow on the ground, which I would have to deal with in order to get out. After my usual ritual of defrosting the windows, I shoveled all the snow that I could from around my car and tried to drive away. The snow was thick and heavy. I was stuck, and the more I panicked, the worse it became. I was so furious at this point, thinking about my husband basking in the California sun, that I decided to do the most logical thing to rectify the problem: I went to his closet; got all the clothes, shoes, and underwear that he left behind; and used them under my tires for traction. I’ll never forget the satisfaction that I felt, as I looked in the rearview mirror at his underwear flying as I drove away. His undies were hanging in the trees 'til the next spring."

Intro

[00:12:01] Paul: I'm here with Bobby Martinez, uh, who … is a certified, uh, drug and alcohol counselor and has quite a life story. You spent a large portion of your life in prison.

Bobby: Yes.

Paul: And, a good portion of that—How many years was in solitary confinement in Pelican Bay?

Bobby: Twelve years at Pelican Bay, isolation.

Paul: That's … How you still have a shred of sanity is, is mind-boggling to me. Don't most people go crazy after like a month of solitary confinement. (Laughs)

Bobby: I've, I've, I've witnessed, uh, quite a few individuals, um, totally lose their mind. You know, um, started eating their own feces and throwing it on the cops and, you know, that's how you know when somebody's kinda lost it. But, the solitary confinement thing, uh, it actually goes back a lot further than that. When I was in the youth authority, uh, from 12 years old to 24 years old, um, the majority of my time was spent in what's called the box, and that's solitary confinement.

Paul: The same thing as the SHU?

Bobby: A lot more severe, actually.

Paul: Yeah?

Bobby: Yeah.

Paul: What’s the difference between the SHU—is, uh, s-h-u, for this listener, single housing unit?

Bobby: They're, they're single housing unit, but, but the, the, um, the pods are eight, eight, eight cells to a pod. And the door are, are, um, there's little holes in the doors, so you can actually communicate with everybody. Where, in the youth authority, um, there're just little cells that are solid doors where you can't talk to anybody. The time is less, of course, the time is a lot less. I spent like maybe 30 days in there at a time. But I spent a lot of time in there, in and out. Where, where in Pelican Bay, it was, it was just 12 years straight.

Paul: And Pelican Bay is in California, that's … where the most dangerous criminals in California, uh, are …

Bobby: Up, up until 2015. So—

Paul: And then, what happened?

Bobby: So from 19, uh, 96, or 1991 actually when Pelican Bay opened up, uh, they were sending, um, "the worst of the worst" in, in the California Department of Corrections. Criminal gang members, uh, criminal gang member associates, um, and people that just could not, uh, be with general population. They were just too violent sometimes.

But, for the most part, um, they're just criminals. They're, they're, they're human beings, and, and they're being locked up. So, a lot of the family members, uh, psychiatrists, doctors, um … judges, lawyers, started a coalition. And they finally, they finally closed it down to, due to cruel and unusual punishment. A lot of people, like I said, that were just going crazy—

Paul: Closed down Pelican Bay, or the, the—

Bobby: They closed down the, the indeterminant SHU. The indeterminant SHU would be like (clears throat) if, for instance, somebody said that I was a, a prison gang member, um, another inmate, and then they would put me in there for an indeterminant amount of time, based on that. Based on somebody just saying this guy is this. So, it would … So now, then later on, they changed it to three people have to say it, uh, to finally, um, they can't put you in there for more than, uh, maximum of five years now, as of 2015.

My brother was there from 1991 to 2015. So he's now on, on the mainline.

Paul: Which is gene-, general population—

Bobby: General population. And he's actually one of the most intelligent people you'll ever talk to.

Paul: Why would somebody being a gang member automatically qualify them for solitary confinement?

Bobby: So that goes into prison politics, um, which I won't get too, too much in detail.

Paul: Is there a reason why you don’t wanna get into too much detail?

Bobby: It's, it's, it's just a lot of hearsay. Most of the people are, were not even involved in criminal gang, uh, in prison gangs, uh, just based on, uh, people feeling uncomfortable if, if a sol-, certain person was around, then they would just go and tell the police that this guy is doing this. So, the reason why most of them were in solitary confinement was because they would, uh, the, the authorities would feel that they would be out there, um … um, you know, calling shots, having people, uh—

Paul: Whacked?

Bobby: Whacked, yeah. For …

Paul: Greenlit?

Bobby: Greenlit, yes. (Laughs)

Paul: Ballista (sp?)? (Laughs)

Bobby: Yeah, there you go. So you know what I'm, more than I do. (Laughs)

Paul: I've, yeah, I've had a few friends that have … walked the yard.

Bobby: Yeah. So I have, I have a lot of friends in, in, uh, you know they're, they, they're really happy with what I'm doing now with my life. Cuz, uh, all I would be doing in there was eating up their soups, right, instead of, uh, being out here taking care of my family—which is, that's what it's really all about.

Paul: Getting your spread together?

Bobby: And they're rea—Yeah, and they're, you know, a real friend would, would actually want that for another friend, right.

Paul: Yeah. So where, where does it … begin for you? Give us, uh, an overview of your life story. You know, what brought you to, uh, begin to get in trouble with, uh, the law and the youth authority and all, and all that? Paint a picture of—

Bobby: So there, there was a time in my life when I was actually proud to day that I was actually born into this lifestyle, uh, literally, cuz my mother was, uh, 14 years old when I was born. My, my mother and my father were 14 years when I was born, 14 years old.

So, they were both gang member. My mother was a drug addict. My father drank a lot. So I was literally born into the lifestyle. By the time my mother was 25, she had, uh, five other boys from my stepfather, who adopted me. Then she left him, had another kid with another guy, and she was in and out of prison.

So, she basically raised us up as though we were in the, in prison. She made us like, uh—I was a neat freak for a long time; I finally got over that. (Chuckles) So that's, that's the kind of the, the fruits that my wife now enjoys, that I keep things clean.

Paul: And … talk about why that's important in prison.

Bobby: Because, uh, you're, you're in a cell. Mostly in solitary confinement. It's very, very important to, to pick up after yourself. You know, you don’t wanna leave your sock ou-, your socks on your cellie's bed. Or, or, um, you know, not take care of the toilet are after you're done with it. So, um, that's the way my mom basically raised us. I was, I was born in Pacoima, California, uh, in 1965, um, I think the year that the Dodgers won the World Series. I think Sandy Koulfax was, um, Cy Young and MVP. So, I'm kinda proud of that. But, uh, being born in Pacoima, uh … it's a predominantly, a Mexican-American, uh, gang, gang culture there. I mean, it's a little bit different now, but that's how it was back then.

Paul: And, was it a variety of gangs, or was there one—

Bobby: Back then, there was like three different gangs. Now, there's like a whole bunch of other ones. So, but … my mother ended up, uh, getting into a fight with, with one of the neighbors, um, cuz she was really jealous of my mom. So, my mom was having a fist fight with this woman in from on me and my brothers—broad daylight. And the woman's husband comes out with, with a pair of knives, hands one to my mom and one, one to his wife, and says, "If you guys really wanna go at it, go at it like that." My mom ended up killing that woman in front of me and my brothers.

Paul: Wow!

Bobby: So, it was, you know, it's, it's a memory that I still have. It's, it's trauma that I'm still dealing with (clears throat). Cuz it's very clear, I was, I think I was like nine years old. My grandmother immediately took custody of us, um, and—

Paul: What—if, if you are okay with going back to that moment and … sharing what you remember thinking or feeling as that kid.

Bobby: It's a lot of confusion. Because we had seen our mom fight a lot. Any little thing. I mean, if there was another kid that was bigger than me or one of my brothers, um, all we had to do was come home and tell my mom: Oh, you know, so-and-so hit, hit David or Raymond or one of my other brothers. And my mom would immediately just drop everything and go to that person's house, pull their mom out by the hair, and, and just beat the crap out of 'em right there, in broad daylight. So it was, it was one of those things that we were kinda used to—

Paul: Your mom was a deeply traumatized person.

Bobby: Yes, yes. She was the baby of nine. Spoiled rotten. There's something, it's kind of funny, but not really funny, when my grandfather told me one time that my mom, at 13 years old, would run home from middle school—Pacoima Middle High—and run to her room, just to start sucking on her bottle. Her baby bottle. (Chuckles) So that was, that's, that's, so that's how spoiled she was.

Paul: But, but where did her, her anger—I mean, obviously, she wasn’t getting some need met that she had this rage inside her, or—

Bobby: It's really, it's really funny, because the rest of her siblings are nothing like that.

Paul: Really?!

Bobby: My aunts and uncles are totally cool. They still live today, and my mom was the youngest and, and she, she passed away at 49. My aunts are in their 70s now.

Paul: And so, there was never an even or—

Bobby: There had to been, there had to have been. I mean, I, I can't, I can't sit here and speculate. But obviously, some kind of trauma happened to her as a little girl. She was very beautiful. My mom was very beautiful—

Paul: What was her name?

Bobby: Her name was Gracie, after my daughter, and after your dog. (Laughs)

Paul: And after my dog, yeah. (Laughs)

Bobby: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, it's interesting. As, as you're sharing this, the first thing you shared is … you're nine years old and you watched your mother kill another person. Your kids, right now, are in my back yard, playing with my dog. And my buddy, Taylor's, hanging there with them. And, and just the thought of those kids seeing something like that, uh, obviously, that's not lost on you. You're, you're … spending time with your kids and they're that, that exact age.

Bobby: They are the exact age as me and my brothers. But there was five of us, and there's two of my sons.

Paul: Do you remember saying anything? Did you shut down? Did you cry?

Bobby: No. What, what I remember is, is, um, we didn’t, we didn’t realize the, the, the magnitude of, of what had happened. We realized that it was a fight. We saw some blood. And then immediately, we were swept up by my mom's homegirls and taken to another one of the, uh—We're, this was in the projects, in Pacoima—taken to another unit. There's helicopters and cops and it was, it was a big scene. We were in there—You know, we were in there watching TV, I remember. I think we were watching, uh, Bugs Bunny or something. It was just another thing. When my grandmother came, she, she swept us up, which, which, which something that she always did, cuz my mom spent time in and out of prison. But this time, she was going for a long time. So, it wasn’t, um—

Paul: How long did she serve?

Bobby: Almost five years for manslaughter. They gave her manslaughter because of the circumstances. They said, ultimately, that the, the, the lady's husband got involved, which nobody saw. He was acting like he breaking them up, trying to stab my mom. But he actually stabbed his wife.

Paul: He did?

Bobby: Yes. He didn’t actually—So, they couldn’t tell which, which wound actually killed her, cuz she was stabbed so many times.

Paul: She was stabbed by your mother and her husband?

Bobby: Yes. Um-hmm. So they gave my mom a manslaughter; she took a manslaughter deal, rather than take a—And this was in 1974, maybe? 1974.

Paul: So that set the, the, the stage for what in, in your life? Was that, would you consider that to be, um—

Bobby: That wasn’t the biggest … That was pretty traumatic, that my mom was gone. That, that she committed a murder was, was not really, uh, registered. What, what really registered in my life at that time—cuz shortly thereafter, uh, maybe like six months later, um, my stepfather showed up for my brothers. So, they were, um, removed from my grandma's house by him. And so, I was completely alone at that time. That was, that was the, something that, that I'm still dealing with.

Paul: So, you lost your, your brothers and your mom in the, in the course of …

Bobby: Maybe less than a year.

Paul: Less than a year.

Bobby: And I remember they were leaving, uh, cuz we were upstairs. Me and my grandmother were looking down on them as they went downstairs. The two twins left. There's twins right after me, and, um, my little brother, um, Stevie—he was really close to my grandmother. And his dad told him you wanna come. And I looked at him and I said, "Don’t go," you know. And he, he left, too. That was his father, you know. So that, that, that really, um … It, it's hard to explain now, looking back at, um, the effect of that. But I know that shortly thereafter, um—nine, 10, 11, 12, maybe like three years later—I ended up doing armed robberies and, you know, ended up in the youth authority.

Paul: And, and who were you, where you living with your grandparents at that point?

Bobby: Yes.

Paul: But you had no siblings, and—

Bobby: No si-, well, I had two smaller siblings. They were, they were already living with my grandmother.

Paul: I gotcha.

Bobby: A lot, lot younger. My mom had just had a couple of more kids. So, we moved to North Hollywood, which is not far from here. I drove up, just to pass some time, back past North Hollywood High, where I think I lasted there for like a couple of minutes. (Chuckles) Maybe a couple of minutes, and then I was in YA, um, for the third time.

Paul: Right there on, uh …

Bobby: On Colfax—

Paul: On Magnolia and Colfax?

Bobby: Yeah. And went by the, by the … by the, um, North Hollywood High, I mean, uh, North Hollywood Park, which is basically where I used to go to ditch school from Walter Reed Junior High. So I, I haven’t been on this side of town for a while. So it does trigger a little bit of thoughts—

Paul: What, what does it bring up? Does it bring up any particular feelings?

Bobby: Well, I, I got involved in a local gang here in North Hollywood. And, um … well, when my mom's family found out I was in-, I was involved in a gang over here, they were like, "What are you talking about? You're from Pacoima." I said, "No, I'm not from Pacoima. I'm from this gang now." And, um, so it brings up a lot of, a lot of that lifestyle. I ended up being like, uh … At 12 years old, I was the youngest person involved in this gang. The closest person to my age was 17, and then it went up.

Paul: And you were 12.

Bobby: I was 12. So, the closest person I was, to my age was 17, and then it went 19 and then in 20s.

Paul: And give, give me a picture of a typical day. And were you jumped in?

Bobby: Yeah. I, I was—

Paul: Describe, for, for, for somebody, what, what that means.

Bobby: So, I, I had a little friend, um, I was 12, right, I was 12. A little, um, Mexican national friend. We used to steal bikes in the area and, you know, little petty crimes like that. And, one day, we were walking by this, uh, this area called the Crazy Alley, which is on Cahuenga and Oxnard. That's where I grew up. And there was, there used to be a long alley there, and they called it the Crazy Alley.

Paul: Right where there, all the electrical wires go over?

Bobby: Exactly. That's Whitnall Highway. I lived on, I lived on Whitnall Highway. So I remember those, that noise just continuously. So, I was coming home one day and I was, I was walking by the Crazy Alley. And there was two guys out there, maybe like 19, 18. And they asked me where I was from. You know, that mean what gang are you from. And I said, "I'm from no gang, but I grew up in Pacoima." And he said, "Well, you're not from Pacoima, right? They didn’t jump you in." I said, "No." So they asked me about three or four more questions, and they said, "Well, we're gonna get you into our gang." And I looked down the alley, and it was like a bunch of guys down there. And I said, "Well, I gotta go home. I gotta eat dinner. (Chuckles) My grandma's waiting for me." "You know, this won't take long. This won't take long." So they started walking me down the, down the dark alley. And I said, "What about my friend?" Cuz two other guys were questioning him. And they said, "Oh, no. We don’t want, we don’t want him." He ended up getting into the rival gang.

Paul: Really?

Bobby: He ended up getting into the, the enemy of this gang, which was really, really funny. (Laughs)

Paul: And … why did they want you and not him?

Bobby: Based on their questioning, based on their questioning.

Paul: Cuz they wanted somebody that, that would know—

Bobby: This, this gang, um, this particular gang is very, very picky. So it's, it's, it's one of the oldest gangs in Los Angeles. They've been around since, 1949? One of the Zoot Suit gangs. They, they're originally from South Central. Then they had a, a chapter in West LA. Another chapter in Hollywood. Now they have a chapter out here since, uh, '75, they’ve been out here in the Valley. So, they're very, very particular. And it's, it's always been kind of a small gang. So, it, it, it's, it's a small gang, but, but, uh, I guess the mindset is different from most other gangs. So, yeah, they took me down in alley and, uh, they counted up to 14. That, that was how much they counted up to.

Paul: Fourteen guys?

Bobby: No, 14 seconds.

Paul: Oh, 14 seconds. People kicking and punching.

Bobby: Yes, yes. They didn’t hurt me bad. They were just hitting my body. They saw I was scrawny. I was a scrawny, little kid. And then after that, um, it was all downhill. I mean, I, I just fit right in. I fit right into the lifestyle. I was already dressing the part.

Paul: And, and it … Did it provide you with a feeling of belonging and an identity that you were lacking?

Bobby: More than anything. More than anything. As I said, uh, when my brothers were removed, I think, I think I really, really, um, needed to fill that gap, and they filled that gap. And I was all in. I was so much in that, um, I was the one that ended up in the Youth Authority first. So these guys are 17, 18, 19, had never been to the Youth Authority. So when I went to the Youth Authority for my first time, uh, I got out when I was 17. Went in when I was 12. About five years, almost five years for armed robberies. And, uh, when I got out, it was like, I was like, uh, looked upon, uh, really respect. A lot of respect, a lot of admiration, cuz I went and did what they hadn’t done. Didn’t last for very long: I went back to YA for five more years for more armed robberies. And I was—

Paul: You must not been very good at your armed robberies. (Laughs)

Bobby: I was very, very reckless.

Paul: Were you?

Bobby: And I think I like—

Paul: Were you, were you drunk and high, too?

Bobby: All the time. Drunk, drunk. PCP, marijuana, alcohol. Whatever we could get.

Paul: And you’ve been sober now, how long?

Bobby: Three years.

Paul: That's awesome.

Bobby: Yeah, going on three years, yeah. First time.

Paul: So … give me any big moments leading up to your darkest times, which I have to imagine were in solitary at Pelican Bay, or no?

Bobby: The darkest time in my life?

Paul: Yeah.

Bobby: Would have to have been about, um …

Paul: Three years ago. (Laughs)

Bobby: Three years ago, yes. In, uh, two thousand and … I went back to prison in 2012 for $40 worth of meth. The judge gave me four years with half time. So I was supposed to do two years. Because I was a, um, validated, um, prison gang, um, you get no time cuts. So I went to prison. The first thing they do is throw me in the SHU, uh Tehachapi SHU. SHUs are the SHU—it's segregated housing unit. So I was in Tehachapi doing 38 months for, what, $40 worth of crystal meth, is, now it's a misdemeanor. I woulda did the whole four years, uh, but Prop 47 went through. So, they kicked me out six months early. I got out, determined to change my life. I was like full-hearted Catholic. I loved Catholicism. The nun would come in every, every Thursday, pull me out of my cell, put me in a little, a little cage, and give me my, uh, my catechism. And, um, finally, uh, Father Boyle came, from Home Boys, and, uh, did my communion, and, and I, I did my holy communion like three years ago. (Chuckles) Actually, in 2015. So, when I got out, I was determined to change. I went, I went back to the woman who had my two sons, the ones that are playing in your back yard. So this was in 2015, when I got out … determined to change. She was doing something else. She wasn’t ready to, to stop drinking. That's all she was doing, was drinking. And so, um, I thought I could change her. I knew nothing about alcoholism or, or addiction. I just—

Paul: Or codependence.

Bobby: None of that, none of that. (Chuckles) Codependence is, is, now that I know, is one of the most difficult to, to treat.

Paul: Sure, cuz it's so easy for that person to think that the problem is the drinker.

Bobby: It is. It is. So, she ended up getting pregnant—

Paul: Or, I should say, only the drinker is the problem. (Chuckles)

Bobby: (Laughs) Yeah. So, I, I joined her once in a while. I mean, I wasn’t completely sober. But I was working for a moving company, 14-hour shifts. And I would come home and she would still be drinking. She tried to stop, she really tried to stop. She would fix herself up, and I always knew she was drinking. She would just … try to stop, but I didn’t, I, di-, I didn’t think she wanted to. So after the baby was like seven months old, I took all three kids and left. I left her, took three kids to the hotel, uh, paying a babysitter and still working. Maybe like two or three weeks after that, DCFS—Department of Children Family Services—called me up and, and, um, said that they had picked up my sons from school, and that I was to bring in the baby, um, to the office as soon as possible. I had no idea what was going on. But I was sober for 15 months, off and on, maybe a drink or two. And, so I took the baby into the office.

My two sons were standing there with two workers. They were not that young. They were young, but they knew what was going on. And I had, I ha-, I handed the baby over to the worker. And that was, that was the darkest moment of my life. Cuz when I left there, um, I immediately went and got some, um, methamphetamine, a big bottle of tequila, and went and got a hotel. And, I had a really nice Mercedes Benz at the time (chuckles), and that's what I was living in. And, um, that was, uh—

Paul: And were you still, were you still gang-banging?

Bobby: No. No. Gang-banging was way behind. Gang-banging I left behind a long, long time ago. So it was just, uh, that was the darkest moment of my life.

Paul: And … were the children taken away because neither you nor your wife were sober?

Bobby: They were taken away because I didn’t take 'em out of harm's way fast enough, they said. I said, "Wait a minute, I did take 'em from the home." And they said, "Well, you didn’t do it fast enough." So, fast enough is, uh, now I, I tell my, my patients during group, um, what is fast enough? If your child is about to put their finger in a light socket, how fast do you protect that child? Instantly. So, in all reality, um, my daughter shouldn’t be born, because the same day that I got out and she was still drinking, I, according to Department of Children Family Service, I should’ve took the boys that day.

So, it, it is what it is. I mean now, uh, there a new ordience, a new ordience with, uh, ordinance, with, uh, Department of Children Family Services that they're not removing the children simply for substance use, uh, disorder. So there has to be other, other things involved. Simply for the pa-, parents getting high or drunk, they're no longer removing the children because of the trauma involved with the loss and separation. So they finally can to the realization that it causes more trauma.

Paul: And yet, how do you deal with people that are putting their children … You know, because there, there's a gray area in between stay the fuck out of somebody's life—it's gonna be worse for the kids to take 'em out—and this child is around drugs 24 hours a day and chaos. And this is no life for them, but foster care isn't great for them either. So what, what, how does that … handle?

Bobby: So you … so I guess, I'm, I'm just guessing DCFS's mindset on this, is that they're weighing out the, um, what trauma is worse. Is, is, is it … I mean we’re putting the children and the parents in treatment, cuz now it's all about treatment, it's all about harm reduction. That's the biggest thing, that's, that's what popular right now, is harm reduction.

So if we can, uh, reduce the parent from doing meth to, to, uh, marijuana or alcohol, then, then it's a success, right. So … we might be putting them in residential. The parent might be able to keep the children. If the children are being fed or the children are being taken care of, even though they're on drugs, a lot of parents are still taking care of their kids. They're just not giving them the full attention. It's impossible, cuz they're dealing with their addiction. So then, the parent goes to outpatient treatment.

So there’s many different avenues. So you, you weight the difference. So this, this a, this is a real number here. It's a ... just for the simple loss and separation that my children suffered, because they were in, in, uh foster care for one year. That's a long time. So one year, 12 months, they were in foster care. It's 400 percent chance, 400 percent likely that they will grow up to be addicts. For that ONE situation that happened in their life, not even counting all the problems that they had while their mom and I were using drugs before I went to prison the first time. Not even counting all the, um, me not being there, their mother getting drunk, uh, police showing up at the house. That's, that's all other stuff piled onto the loss and separation when they were in foster care. So there's a really, really high percentage that my children can grow up to be addicts. And we're not even talking about the gene that's gonna get passed down.

So, um, that's what, that's what's being weighed out. So as a parent, the best thing that I can do right now is, is, um, is educate my children on, on addiction and what they might have. So I, I tell my patients during group all the time—and I call them patients because that’s what they ask us to call them. I'm not a doctor. (Chuckles) They ask us to call them, instead of clients, we call them patients. So I always, I always say, you know what, my, my nine-year-old could come in here and run this group right now. He knows what addiction is. He can tell you what addiction. He probably doesn’t comprehend it completely, but he can probably run this group.

Paul: Oh, yeah?

Bobby: And that's, that's my main focus right now, as a father, to help educate my children.

Paul: Let's go back to when you were in Pelican Bay. You went in in, in, in what year?

Bobby: I got there in 19 … 1991, 92 … 1994, I went to Corcoran, uh, SHU. So I was in Corcoran SHU for two years.

Paul: And what … were you in prison for?

Bobby: I was in prison for armed robberies again. I went in 1991. I finally got out in 2006. So I was, I got in there on two, in '96, '95, and I paroled in '96. So I was in the SHU from '94 to 2006.

Paul: In your, in your getting sober and taking a hard look at things that you’ve done and the harm that you’ve caused people, give me some highlights of moments where you finally—if, if you did—saw and felt the depth of the affect that your actions had on, on others.

Bobby: I think, uh … when my wife and I—She's my wife now. We've been together for—She's, she's actually a lot younger than I am. She's 22 years younger than me. When we finally got back together, um, when our, when our children were, were returned to us. And we ended up in a Pentecostal Church, uh, Chatsworth Foursquare Church. We ended up there as a compromise. One of us wanted to go to AA. The other one wanted—And this was on New Year's, New Year's Eve. So one of us wanted to spend it at AA, the other one wanted to spend it at the church. So then we compromised. We said we'll stay here 'til 11, um, and then we'll go to AA. We ended staying there 'til, the whole, um, until the next morning, we were there. And that night, um, we accepted Jesus together. You know, they, you know how they ask is anybody accepting God. So we walked up there; we were the only ones. And we were holding hands, and we accepted Jesus together. I think … maybe, um, weeks after that, going to church often, um, I just fell on my knees one day at the altar, and, uh, and, and I broke down. And, and that's when everything just came flooding. It just flooded. I mean everything that had happened to me—

Paul: And so what thoughts and feelings and, and memories came up when you, when you broke down?

Bobby: Not that many memories, but I think just a lot, a lot of trauma that—Because as a Christian, um, we are able to take it off of us and give it God. And I, I think that was the biggest thing. It still is, it still is. I don’t, I don’t cry that much anymore, but I did cry for maybe like a year every time I went to church. Ask my wife. You know, she, she has a lot of trauma, too. So that helps a lot.

Paul: And, and were the, the tears of sorrow, relief—

Bobby: Sorrow, sorrow—

Paul: —regret, sadness—

Bobby: —sorrow. All that, all that.

Paul: Shame?

Bobby: Shame mostly. Shame most. Cuz—

Paul: Des-, des-, describe some of the things that you're most … if you're comfortable, most ash-, uh, ashamed of in your, in your past.

Bobby: Once again, once again, it's, it's not that far back. So, you know, my mom always prided herself on us never getting taken. She was a gang member. Always had somebody in the house. She was he-, she was a heroin addict for her whole life. And I remember her always talking about, "Oh, so-and-so just got their kids taken away. How stupid is that person," you know. And I remember, even though she would go to prison, my grandma was always there, but I never put that in connection with, with us never getting removed. If my grandma wasn’t there, we probably woulda ended up in foster care, now that I think about it. So, I would go—recently, before I got sober—to these houses where people were doing crystal meth. And they'd be talking about somebody got their kids taken away. I would say, "How, how, how could she be so stupid?" You know, "What the heck's wrong with that person," you know? "How, how could they be so dumb to let this happen to their lives and they're here getting high?" So when it happened to me, um, it was like, uh, one of the biggest shames of my life. I remember when they, when they finally gave us, uh, overnight visits—because they started out with, um, with, uh, monitored visits, and then unmonitored visits, and then finally overnight visits. So when my three kids started staying the night from Friday to Sunday, my little girl—she was 18 months at the time—she knew when Sunday was coming around, because she would see us packing her stuff and she would start crying. And my wife didn’t have to experience this because she would be at work. I would have to take the kids to the front—we were living in the back house (clears throat), and the, and the, uh, foster mother would pick them us, um, and I would have to put my daughter in the, in the car seat, screaming and kicking and crying and throwing a tantrum. It was kind of hard to buckle her in. And I could hear her screaming like down the street, driving away—

Paul: Oh, my god. Oh, my god, that is heartbreaking.

Bobby: So one day, I went, I went, I heard her screaming, and I was walking back, cuz we lived in the back house. I walked back and I, and I sat down inside there and I, and I cried like a baby. I literally bawled, and I, and I just let it out. And, and then the next day I was thinking, "Wow, why did I cry like that?" I knew it wasn’t for her, because she's a baby. She's going through that. And then I realized it was my shame. It was the shame and guilt that I felt for myself for letting this happen. For letting this happen, because I, I felt that I had a little bit more intelligence than that.

Paul: I wonder, too, if, if there wasn’t a, a part of you remembering that that happened to you—

Bobby: You're absolutely right—

Paul:—as, as, as a kid. I mean, don’t let me put words in your mouth—

Bobby: No. That, that's—

Paul: I know, oftentimes, I can't cry for myself. I, but I can cry if something happens that can represent the part of me I'm sad about, but don’t want to face. Does that make sense?

Bobby: So what, what I hear you saying is that I, that I was crying for, uh, Bobby when he was younger.

Paul: I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if that wasn’t also a part of it. You know, all of those, all of those things.

Bobby: You know, you know, uh, you asked me about some, some, uh, um, dark times at Pelican Bay, um, so I should share this with you. During the 12 years that I was there—And, and before I got a little further, I just wanna say that, that I chose to go there. I chose to go to Pe-, I chose to go to prison. When I, when I finally finished with the Youth Authority, I was 24 years old. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna go visit my brother in prison. My brother had been in prison for … maybe like, uh, five or six years already? He's a lifer now. He's been in there since 1982 … 1985, he got arrested, um, for a murder-robbery. He's still in there; he has 45 to life. So I was like, I just, I was high one day, and I say you know what, I'm gonna go visit my brother. And I started doing crimes. And I wanted to get caught. And I finally got caught. I had 29 armed robberies. And … when I went to prison, I needed to get to Pelican Bay. The only way to get to Pelican Bay is to do other stuff in prison. And I remember when I was in Corcoran SHU, um, which is a lot less isolated—it's still, it's still segregated hou-, housing, but you, you come out with, with a group in your little yard. I remember I went to board and, and they told me, "Mr. Martinez, if you don’t settle down, we're gonna send you to Pelican Bay." And I remember looking at them and telling 'em, "Don’t you know that’s where I wanna go?" (Chuckles) And they looked at me like if I was insane. I say the look on their eyes. And I remember that clearly. They looked at me like what the heck. And I said, "Cuz that's where my brother's at. I need to see my brother." And FINALLY I made it up there after two years of doing all kinds of stuff.

Paul: Anything you wanna share?

Bobby: The worst thing in did in prison and, and, and I really, really felt bad—and I still have a hard time with it—is, um, uh, there was a racial thing going on. You know, there's a lot of racist, racial stuff going on in prison between, uh, blacks and Mexicans. And this particular situation was going on for a few months on the yards, and then it would come back to the hole, to the … administrative segregation. That's the place they put you right before you go to the SHU, uh, before you get transferred. And, um, I got on the bus. I had a shank on me that they didn’t find. And I had a cuff key.

Paul: Did you have it keistered?

Bobby: I had it keistered, yes. And I had a cuff key in my mouth, uh, uh, to, to come out of my handcuffs. And I came out of my cuffs, um, as we got to the unloading dock at … Corcoran. And I ended up, um, stabbing five black people on that bus. It was, it was really, really unfair, um, cuz they still had their handcuffs on. Thank god I didn’t kill anybody. Thank god it was a bunch of superficial wounds, because I remember they were in the holding cell next to me after the incident, and they were like—they had little bandages on them. There was like five of them in there. And they were looking, they were telling me, "You didn’t do anything to us. You know, you coulda killed us. You coulda killed us." And I remember thinking that, that, that's absolutely right, I could have. But I didn’t.

Paul: Were they taunting you?

Bobby: Kind of. Yeah. Now that I think about it, maybe. They, they did wanna get me for that.

Paul: Oh, yeah! (Laughs)

Bobby: The whole, the whole like Crips and Bloods, they, they, they really wanted to get me for that. But … it was what, what's going on.

Paul: And … was this something that the shot caller said, you know—

Bobby: No, this was something that, that me and my cellie decided to do. Because I remember my cellie saying, "This is your chance. This is your chance to be somebody in here." And I remember that, but I didn’t take that chance. My chance would have been if, if somebody would’ve died. So it wasn’t such, it wasn’t such a big thing. Even that didn’t get me to Pelican Bay. I still had to do other stuff. And—

Paul: And … what, how did you make a cuff key—

Bobby: It was a real key—

Paul:—and what was your shank made out of?

Bobby: It was a real key.

Paul: Oh.

Bobby: And—

Paul: And, and, somebody, a guard had been bribed or something—

Bobby: Maybe—

Paul:—for it, or—

Bobby: We got it from some other white guy.

Paul: Okay.

Bobby: White guys always had that stuff. (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) Why is that?

Bobby: They’re very, very, uh … Well, there was, there was, uh, it, it was a white guy that had it. And he—

Paul: A white prisoner?

Bobby: Yeah. And he told me what he was gonna do. And—on the bus the next day. And he had a really, really big shank. And he was gonna kill somebody. Unfor-, fortunately, for me, uh, the metal detector kept going off on him.

Paul: Cuz his shank was too big?

Bobby: It was too big, yeah. So, they put him in the isolated cage on the bus. So, as I was walking in on the bus, he gave me the key with his mouth. And I grabbed. So, I ended up in Pelican Bay. And what I wanted to share with you is, is during that, those, those, um, five years that I was, or twelve years that I was there—ten? Ten years that I was in Pelican Bay—um, my mother died at 49. My father died at 50. My grandparents who raised me both died. And my baby brother was murdered. He was stabbed, stabbed to death. So those five people died during that time.

Paul: Wow!

Bobby: That’s the only time you're allowed to get a phone call. So me and my brother received five phone calls in that time period.

Paul: And that’s it.

Bobby: That’s it. And the reason why I bring that up, because this is how much it, this is how much it hurt me when I had to hand my baby over to the, to the, to the social worker. I remember that feeling very clearly, cuz it’s not that long ago. It was the worst feeling of my life. That’s why it’s easy for me to say that’s the darkest time in my life. And those deaths combined don’t come close to that feeling that I felt, when I had to hand that little girl over.

Paul: And that little girl is Gracie?

Bobby: That’s Gracie, yeah.

Paul: Who—and my Gracie is chewing on a bone right now at, uh, at Bobby’s feet.

Bobby: (Laughs)

Paul: Describe … solitary confinement in, in Pelican Bay. And, and, were you able to reconnect with your, uh, brother, and, and (unintelligible)—

Bobby: Actually, actually, me and my brother became cellies the first night I got there.

Paul: And how, how was, that clearly wasn’t just random.

Bobby: No, no. Well, in, in, at that time, if you had a family member, when you go there, you let, you let the officers know during intake, and they, they would immediately cell you up.

Paul: Oh, they would.

Bobby: Yeah. So he left his cellie that he had for like five years just to come with me. You know, he’s, he’s six-foot-three. My—both, both, they’re twins. They’re both six-foot-three. All my brothers are six-foot-something. I’m, I’m kind of short and I’m the oldest. So, I, I had, I had a, um, I was anemic when, when I was like three months old. So I, I don’t know, that probably stunt my growth a little bit. (Laughs) But anyway, seeing him again, it was kind of shocking to see him after all that time. But, um … it, it was great. We were cellies, uh, for almost six years. Yeah. So we had to go through my mom’s death together. My baby brother was, was, was really hard. He was the youngest, he got stabbed to death like 30 times in the head on, uh, Cohanga and Oxnard.

Paul: And what, and what was that over?

Bobby: He was the baby of the family, so he would run around the neighborhood. He was—All my, by the way, all my brothers ended following me into the same gang. I have one sister who, who’s from Pacoima. So, all of us were in prison at the time. He was the only one out, my baby brother. He was, uh, 27 or something, I think. This was in 1998. And he just believed that he could do whatever he wanted in the neighborhood. There was two guys, uh, uh—

Paul: He felt like, “I’m connected.”

Bobby: Exactly. Exact--, no one’s gonna do nothing to me cuz of my brothers. And that was true for, for the most part. But these two guys ended up moving into that neighborhood, my neighborhood. They were from south Central. They knew everybody in my neighborhood. They were accepted there. They were cool, as long as, you know, they didn’t bring their gang there. And, uh, on New Year’s Eve, on New Year’s Eve, uh, my brother was drunk, walked up to them, and start pulling their car stereo out of their car, right in front of them. So, my brother gets in a fight with the owner of the car. My brother starts stabbing this guy. The other guy who’s the cousin of the guy my brother was fighting, uh, started stabbing my brother. So, the one that my brother was stabbing died. My brother died on New Year’s Day the next day, from, uh, the head wounds. And, um, that’s how he died.

Paul: Wow. So …

Bobby: And my mom had to suffer through that, too. My mom also lost, lost my little sister when she was five—

Paul: Wow.

Bobby:—to, to pneumonia. She was the only sister at the time. That’s the first death I ever experienced, with my little sister. I was, I was visiting my dad. Cuz I, when I found out who my dad was, I started visiting him on the weekend. They picked me up a little early. My aunt, my dad, my dad’s sister, and, uh, she just, she looks back at me. They’re driving home. I said, “Why are you guys taking me home so early?” And they said, “Oh, your, your, your sister died.” And I remember CLEARLY that only one tear came down. One tear! I remember it was one tear, that’s it. And my aunt, my aunt looks back and says, “Don’t cry. She’s, she’s with, she’s with god. She’s in heaven now.” And then, okay, I remember that. Maybe like a month later, my grandma died. Her mom, my dad’s mom. And I remember my aunt, at the funeral, was literally almost bringing down the casket—

Paul: One of those.

Bobby:—screaming. And I remember sitting in the back and saying she’s the one who told me not to cry for my sister, you know. And that, that’s such a, it’s such an, a, um, tragedy, and, and, and so wrong to tell children not to cry, especially little boys, you know.

Paul: Yeah. It’s stuff it down. Stuff it down—

Bobby: You know, you know my son, um, um, Raymond, he’ll cry. He, he cries. And I remember that’s how I was. So, at first, it would bother me: “Why are you crying? Why are you always crying?” You know, look at him wrong, he starts crying. He’s emotional. And then, now I remember, that’s how I was. I would cry for anything.

Paul: Those are good people to have in the world, people that cry easily.

Bobby: Yes. He’s … You know, his mom was—I heard, I overheard his mom talking to him today, you know, giving him a hug, and telling him that she really appreciates, um, his compassion and his, his emotions. That he’s really good-hearted, she appreciates that about him. I didn’t get involved in the conversation, but I just heard that today, you know.

Paul: That’s awesome.

Bobby: Yeah.

Paul: Talk about the mental aspect of being in solitary confinement. Things, things that … the average person has no idea what people do to cope, what it’s like emotionally, um …

Bobby: I’m glad you asked me that question, Paul. So, the … the thing that, that stands out the most, as soon as you get there, is like, um, the fellas will ask you, “What are you studying? What are you studying?” “What do you mean? I watch TV. I watch novellas.” Soap operas on the Spanish channel. (Laughs) “No, what are you studying?” Okay, so, so they wanna know what, what you're studying, literally. If you're not studying anything, then they will, they will pay for your correspondence courses. So I used to, I used to—

Paul: Who, who are these—

Bobby: The other fellas in there. I have a couple of friends that are millionaires in there. They’re never getting out, but, you know, I, I have a friend that, that owns a lot of shares in Microsoft that, when his, when his parents died, they left him a little bit of money. And he, he invested all that into Microsoft when it was just coming out. So he’s a millionaire now. He’s never gonna get out, but his family’s well taken care of. I mean, I visited his family in, uh, in San Bernardino, and they have like four houses on the same block, you know. (Laughs)

Paul: So, so it’s their way of saying what are you gonna, how, how are you gonna spend your time?

Bobby: Yes. So, so, the, the, the most important things are, are, are education and exercise. So exercise, uh, I mean, that was my new addiction. And that, and that goes really well with, with meth addicts is, is we know that. Exercise is one of the best things for treatment for meth addicts. So I didn’t know that then, But I mean, uh, I used to do like a lot of burpees. A lot of burpees. So, that’s the—

Paul: That’s the prison exercise of choice.

Bobby: It is, it is. Especially in the SHU because you're so confined. There’s no, uh, I think the rec yard is, um, probably 18 by 6, uh, concrete walls. Eighteen by six, that’s the rec yard. And there’s no direct sunlight. Ever.

Paul: Have you seen the movie Shot Caller?

Bobby: No.

Paul: I’d be interested to know what you thought of it. I stumbled across it on, I dunno, is it Netflix of something. And, I, I thought it was really interesting. But, having never been in prison, um … uh …

Bobby: Have you watched any documentaries on Pelican Bay?

Paul: I don’t think I have.

Bobby: So that, that would, I would suggest that. It’s pretty gloomy. It’s pretty sad. It’s pretty dark. But, so you can get an idea of, of, of just how much it takes to come out of there with, with some kind of sense. You know, it amazes me, um, how—

Paul: Cuz it’s northern California and it’s overcast already, right?

Bobby: There’s no direct sunlight at all, because there’s, there’s a, uh, chicken wire on top. And it’s a really small concrete yard. You get to come out one hour a day—

Paul: So you didn’t see the sun for how many years?

Bobby: Ten years.

Paul: You did not see the sun for 10 years—

Bobby: At all, for 10 years. I was as bright as a … um, light bulb when I got out. You see how dark I am right now. I remember looking at my first driver license when I got out, and I was like, “WOW!” I was really, really jaundiced, uh, really, really like bright yellow. And that’s, that’s, that’s—

Paul: Did you see any, you didn’t see a tree?

Bobby: No. One time, they let me out of there by accident to the, to the general population at Pelican Bay. And I remember coming out of the concrete walls and going onto the regular GP yards. And there was grass. And I remember how shocking that green was to me. It was like being in another world, um, because, um, we suffer from, uh, sensory deprivation. That’s what I suffer from now. It’s very difficult for me to, to give a lot of affection, um, physically. I try, and my wife understands this. So sensory deprivation, um, everything is gray. The only thing you have outside your cell is your TV—it’s a 13-inch TV. That’s it. So that’s, that’s superficial. It's not really grass (chuckles) (unintelligible). So, when you see real grass, uh, when you get to touch somebody, it’s, it’s, cuz you never, ever have any physical contact.

Paul: So it’s … intense. So everything is kind of in-, intense—

Bobby: Everything is electric. Your door opens up electrically. You go into a shower that opens up electrically, it closes. And you come back in you cell, it closes. You go out to the rec yard, it opens. So everything is done electrically. But, but education, I mean, I read a lot, I taught myself English grammar in there, uh, pro writing. I studied history. I studied, um, psychology—

Paul: Any particular things in history or psychology kind of—

Bobby: I really delved into, uh, religion, uh, religions of the world. Mexican, Mexican history. I know a lot about, um—But the thing that, that, my passion was, was grammar, English. English grammar was because I wanna write. I knew I wanted to write. So I, I write well. I think I speak well most of the time. And it really, really shocks me that people don’t really know how crazy I really am. (Both laugh) It, it’s, it’s, it’s so, it’s incredible. It’s incredible when I’m, when I’m at an interview or something. People think I’m really sane. (Laughs) I think I, I might suffer a little bit from PTSD.

Paul: You, you think?! (Both laugh)

Bobby: And I don’t need a psychiatrist to tell me that. And I don’t take medication.

Paul: I mean, shit! The things that you have had a front-row seat for, you know, things that you’ve had done to you, things that you’ve done. It’s, it’s mind-boggling that you're not only still standing, but that you're functioning.

Bobby: Yes, and that I’m able to be a father and a husband.

Paul: All of the armed robberies … do you ever picture the faces of the people whose fa-, faces you put the guns in front of, and, and what their, they might be experiencing today?

Bobby: I know I caused them a lot of pain.

Paul: Yes. Cuz … cuz I’m thinking, I, I know if somebody pulled the gun out and I’m at a diner … that’s gonna fuck me up for a long time, just seeing a gun. Cuz I don’t know what their intent it. I don’t know if they’re crazy. I, you know, I’m just imagining what it’s like, um, for those people—And, and, you know, one sober person to another, you know, for us to, to find peace and really cleanse our souls, sometimes we gotta picture the harm that we caused others. And so, I’m just kind of thinking out loud, uh—

Bobby: So as, as, um, as a victim myself, I have a really good idea of, of what they went through. I was actually stabbed in prison by my own people. That was a politic thing, just prison politics, which, which shocked the heck outta me that this happened. So I got stabbed like 13 times in my back—

Paul: Wow!

Bobby:—by two people. Thank god there was two other people that were there to help me. So it was just the prison politic thing, nothing about, um, uh, anything like, uh, bring a, a rat or anything like that. It was just prison politics. But that, that left me in shock. And I remember sitting in the infirmary, um, leaking from my wounds, and thinking like what the heck, you know? There’s been a lot of times, I mean, I’ve been robbed before at gunpoint.

Paul: And what go, what goes through your mind when a gun is in your face?

Bobby: It’s, it’s like, uh—Well, I’ve always, I’ve always been, ever before I started robbing, I mean, I remember, uh, telling one of my girlfriends before when I had a really nice car. I said, “Look, if somebody walks up to us and wants this car, I’m giving it to ‘em. AND your purse. AND your clothes. AND your shoes. And we’re gonna walk, even if we’re walking naked.” So I, I’ve known at a very young age to now be bravo, um, because I guess I know what the mindset is—

Paul: Of somebody who’s desperate.

Bobby: Yes! Yes. So even now, I mean, um, I’m not gonna hurt anybody. The only way that I would probably hurt anybody in my life now is if somebody broke into my house and tried to run out with one of my kids. (Chuckles) And even then, I wouldn’t kill them. I think I would just like hold them down until the cops came. So, I don’t mind sharing this next piece with you. It’s, it’s, it’s a very big breakthrough in my life. So I live in Chatsworth now. I live right next door to my church. And, and, uh, so some-, as I was going to school—you know, you were there at my graduation—um, somebody stole like all my books from my car. (Chuckles) Fifteen units worth of books, uh, my backpack, and, and I had a, uh, a computer carrying case. They thought it, I guess they thought it was a laptop in there. It was just all my books. I had just organized everything for the end of the semester. So they stole everything.

Paul: So you're, uh, you were looking for a suspect wearing glasses. (Laughs)

Bobby: I came, I—So I, I said you know what? I’m gonna make a right instead of a left, the morning that I went to work. And I saw this little guy coming out of the, one of, over the wall. He had a big, black trash bag. And I stopped. He had a backpack on. And I stopped and rolled down the window. I said, “Is that your backpack?” He goes, “Yeah, that’s my backpack.” I knew in my heart, Paul. I knew that that was my stuff in the bag, in that black trash bag. He had a Glad bag. And, I drove off—

Paul: Cuz it looked like your backpack?

Bobby: No, that was not my backpack.

Paul: Oh, okay.

Bobby: That was, I don’t know what I would’ve done. But, but I KNOW my stuff was in that bag. It just so—I, I know god put that right there. I know god put that person there.

Paul: Like, how’s this feel?

Bobby: No, like what are you gonna do?

Paul: I see.

Bobby: Like, what are you gonna do?

Paul: Let’s, let’s put your sobriety to the test.

Bobby: I drove to Devonshire Police Department and made my very first police report. (Laughs)

Paul: Wow. Wow, that is a sign of change.

Bobby: So I, I was in there. I waited for them to open, cuz I was on my way to work, it was early. The cops, uh, they were, they were totally cool. I mean, one of them like, um, he goes, he goes, “You’ve been in prison before.” And we’re having a conversation. I said, “Yeah.” He goes, “Yeah, I can tell.” He’s looking at all my tattoos. And, you know, he had a brother, he has a brother doing life in prison. Puerto Rican guy from New York. He was a New York PD, now he’s LAPD. And we had a really great conversation, you know. And I got to talk to him about god. And, and, and one of them was a Christian. And, and it was just like this is where I’m supposed to be right now, not over there beating that guy’s butt for stealing my stuff or fighting him and maybe getting stabbed or shot. This is where I’m supposed to be doing. And I have that report in my glove compartment. (Laughs) And I told him—As I’m walking out, they’re like, “Man, we feel really bad about that, man.” You know, it was like all my books. So they were, they were feeling bad, worse than I. And I said, “You know what? How many people have filed this stuff on my for a lot worse, man? This is nothing, you know. I’m so appreciative that I can stand here today to do this.”

Paul: Well, Bobby, thank you for, for coming and, uh, taking time out of your schedule and, and sharing all this stuff and answering—

Bobby: It’s been great.

Paul:—some of my, uh, some of my very personal questions.

Bobby: It’s been great, and this is the longest interview I’ve done so far. And I’ve been able to get a lot out in an hour, and I appreciate it. It’s very therapeutic. (Both laugh)

Paul: Right back at you, man. Thank you.

Bobby: You're welcome.

End of Interview

[1:06:31] Wow, I gotta say that, that was, uh … (sighs) it was an amazing, amazing conversation. I learned so much, and I love when we do an episode that breaks new ground for this, for this podcast. Many, many thanks to, uh, to Bobby.

[1:06:50] Today’s episode is sponsored by Crazed. It’s a new podcast created by the National Mental Health Innovation Center, and it highlights big, new ideas in the world of mental health, from how to transform mental health treatment to prevention and stigma reductions and the visionaries behind these ideas. The two hosts are, uh, Matt Vogel and Rick Rekedal. Matt is the founder and executive director of the NMHIC. And, also, a professional stand-up. And Rick is, uh, or was, the senior executive at DreamWorks Animation.

And their guests … are familiar with the impact of mental health, both personally and professionally. And you’ll find compelling stories, information about cutting-edge mental health technology, and just great dialogue about difficult issues. Guests include policy makers, nonprofit leaders, researchers, technologists, filmmakers, and more. And the ideas and stories presented on Crazed are the kind that you dig and will probably be talking about long after you’ve heard the episode. So, you can find Crazed anywhere you get your podcasts or on crazedpodcast.com. Subscribe and listen today.

[1:08:09] Gonna read a couple of surveys. It sounds like, uh, a neighbor, of course, is JUST started doing construction as I, as I hit record, so we’ll see how long this lasts. This is from the “I Shouldn’t Feel This Way” survey. And this is filled out by a guy who calls himself “Get Me The Fuck Outta Here.” He, uh … what is he? He’s in his 20s. How would you like to be remembered? “That is if I was ever a weirdo, it was only because I had a slightly better grasp on the human condition than most people.” How does it feel writing that? “A little egotistical and like it ignores the fact that I’m weird because I didn’t have friends growing up.”

How would you use a time machine? “Only to see significant historical and personal events for myself. If I could. I’d love to experience them as a non-affecting observer.” “I should feel grateful to my patient and generous parents for letting me live with after moving cities and looking for a new job, but I fucking hate it here. I can’t wait to get the fuck out of here. I have a week before I work, and I can’t do anything except sit around and try not to feel anything. I can’t enjoy myself here. I can’t relax. I hate talking to my parents. I hate seeing them every day. I hate feeling like a jerk for being annoyed every time they try to talk to me, but everything they say is so dull and inane, and all I want is my own goddamn place. I’m supposed to feel confident and like I’m doing something good with my life and like I’m a good an likable person, but I don’t. I’m constantly arrested with guilt and shame for all the times I’ve hurt people or made them feel bad, or been made to feel bad by someone. I obsess over all the mistakes I’ve made and try so hard to tell myself I’m okay. I’m doing a good job, but I just hate myself right now. I feel so friendless and alone.”

You know, my thought is, as I was reading your survey, is it, it, it sounds like you're so emotionally disconnected from your parents. I mean … that seem obvious. But, you seem like someone who is yearning for some type of emotional connection. And you're, you're really trapped in your, your head and … I don’t know whether or not your parents are capable of having an emotional, uh, conversation. My, my hunch is probably not. And, a lot of times, I think that’s why we experience things as being annoying, is because there, there’s a lack of connection. And … it just feels … It’s, it’s almost worse than being alone, when you're around people but feel disconnected from them. It, I don’t know about you, but- … it brings about a sadness that I don’t even experience being alone. Sadness maybe is not the right term, but a, a longing for, for connection and a, just wanting to get the fuck out of there. So, I relate to that.

How does it make you feel to write your real feelings out? “I don’t know. A little relieved, but it doesn’t change the months I have left before I can afford an apartment.” Do you think you're abnormal for feeling what you do? “Not really. To be honest, I feel like I’ve made it in an abnormally long time without have a bunch of guilt and shame issues.” Would knowing other people feel the same way may you feel better about yourself? “I guess? I know people do, but I don’t know anyone I can talk to about it. Maybe it’s be better if I had some equally ashamed friends.”

I think a support group would be awesome for you. And think you would find the connection that you're look for. And I, I find it, having deep conversations with people I trust it so … so energizing and life-affirming to me. And it just brings me, you know, often a, a sense of peace and … I dunno, just a feeling that I’m where I’m supposed to be in the universe. Because one of the things that I hate experiencing the most is this sinking feeling that I’m doing the wrong thing at the wrong time the wrong way, and that everybody else has it figured out, and that I’m just not doing life right. And, that’s generally the mean part of our brain … not wanting to make peace with reality. Not that we can’t ever learn and grow and maybe change up our day-to-day activities, but tit’s suck a mean, black-and-white way of looking at ourselves and where we are in the, in the present moment. Anyway, thank you, thank you for filling that out.

[1:12:54] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself “Fufu.” She writes, “After listening to this podcast for a good year or two while running, I finally got enough courage to meet my problems head on. I started to meet with a therapist that specializes in anxiety, a psychiatrist, and got referred to my family doctor for prescriptions. Thank you, universal healthcare. My therapist had mentioned that it is difficult to get people with anxiety to try medication because they fear the worst. I’m a catastrophic thinker; go figure. However, she encouraged me to think about the side effects of NOT being on medication. I’ve heard you say the same thing on the podcast. So I went to my family doctor and spent an hour talking to her about everything. She wrote a prescription of Prozac for me. I finally go to my local pharmacist after a few weeks of holding onto this prescription and debating. I’m ready to take the pills. When he looks at the prescription, the pharmacist looks right back up at me and asks if I’ve ever tried yoga instead.” (Chuckles) What a dick. What a dick. Thank you for sharing (chuckles) that.

[1:14:03] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a transwoman, uh … who … calls herself “Jill.” She identifies as bisexual. She’s in her 20s, was raised in a stable and safe environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? “Yes, and I never reported it. I was getting close with a gay man that I met at a party. I’m a transwoman, but I was not out and was still presenting male at the time. I knew he was interested in me sexually, and I started to entertain the idea of having sex with a man, something I had never done. I let him take me out to a bar and see where the night goes. He bought me several shots, and that’s the last thing I remember.

“I don’t remember riding to his apartment. I don’t remember puking or undressing for him to wash my clothes. However, I do remember being in his kitchen wearing only his oversized shirt and being bent over the counter and penetrated. I remember thinking that I was okay with this, that this is what I wanted. This is fine. I remember a few more sex acts after that and then sleeping in his bed. I’ve wrestled with this night ever since. It’s been a couple of years. I’m not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, I was willing to have sex with him, and it wasn’t entirely unenjoyable. On the other hand, I was in no state of mind to consent, and I absolutely consider it to be rape.”

And that’s one of the things that’s such … a mindfuck about unwanted sexual … activity—whatever you wanna call it—is it, it’s not wiped away by the fact that we wanted to have sex because part of the consent is the WAY that we have sex, when we have sex, uh … and, and that’s … Just because we’re, we’re ready and willing doesn’t mean we’re ready and willing for everything. She’s never been physically or, uh, uh, emotionally abused. Her darkest thoughts: “I’ve had intrusive thoughts about feces, mainly eating it. I used to fear this thought like crazy until I learned about intrusive thoughts and how to deal with them. But then, I had a new fear: What if I’m not actually transgender? When I was struggling with denial about my gender identity, I used to try to avoid trans thoughts at all costs. I was afraid of these thoughts, much like how I was afraid of my thoughts about eating poop. What if my thoughts of being the wrong gender were just intrusive thoughts that I bought into because I didn’t know how to deal with intrusive thoughts like I do now. Did I just convince myself to live out my greatest fear? I think I ‘m just having intrusive thoughts about intrusive thoughts at this point. I know I’m trans. But these thoughts make me feel completely crazy sometimes. Then I look in the mirror and see a man in women’s clothing and think, ‘Oh god, I am crazy.’”

That is not crazy. That is not crazy. That is not crazy. And one of the things that my therapist will say to me is … and, and former guest, Kimberley Quinlan, who talks so great about intrusive thoughts and OCD is … it’s intrusive thought it is, if it’s counter to what we want and our morality. It’s not an intrusive thought if it’s about something that, that we desire … and that is in line with who we are and who, who we wanna be. Darkest secrets: “I’m still in the process of coming out, so me being trans is my biggest secret. I also never reveal that I’ve never had sex, aside from one raping.”

Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: “My whole life, my biggest turn-on is just the idea of being a woman. Having sex as a woman. Having breasts and a vagina. Felling my vagina being penetrated. I watch female point-of-view porn, and it’s intense. It also makes me feel a deep, deep sadness because it will only ever be a fantasy.” What, if anything, do you wish for? “Unrealistically, to be biologically female and go back in time to experience youth as a female. Realistically? To just find happiness with what I am, a trans woman.” Have you shared these things with others? “Only with therapists, and not even as intensely as I have written about it here.”

How do you feel after writing these things down? “I’m realizing that I’m writing how passionately I wish I could express these feelings with others. I feel better writing it and would feel a million times better if I could share this with someone. I’m currently working with my therapist to get through my shame and be able to open up about this.” Thank you so much for this really beautiful and, and heartfelt survey. And I’m so sorry that you had to experience, um, what you did … um, and that you're struggling with self-doubt about who you are and … But, I can tell you from, from reading your survey, you sound like a really, really sweet, sensitive soul. And, I have the feeling that if you just keep opening up and finding healthy people to connect to, uh, that that self-love and that self-acceptance will, will come. And you’ll find the, the peace and acceptance that you’ve been looking for. It just, it just takes time, and … I wish it didn’t. (Laughs) I wish it didn’t, but thank you for your survey.

[1:19:52] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who, who calls herself “Prisoner In A Room.” She identifies as straight. She’s in her 40s. She was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. I would say it’s much worse than that. I would say it’s totally chaotic. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? “Yes, and I never reported it. From before I could remember, my parents had and still have a live-in servant/housekeeper/nanny. Also, my father had an unmarried sister who would stay over at our house regularly at our house when I was a child. Both woman would share the same as me and my twin sister and ‘sleep’ with us and share our bed. They ‘took care of us.’ As part of taking care of us, they molested us in the bed and the bath from before I can remember to the pre-teen years. That was the unspoken ‘price’ we had to pay for ‘being taken care of.’ My parents were largely absent working professionals who were not involved in childcare. I feel confused and angry about the abuse. For one thing, I do not recall any penetration, just fondling of genitals.”

That … that does not matter. Violation is violation, and it’s … yeah. “And even that is a very, very dim memory. The only two reasons why I know for sure there was inappropriate behavior were: Number one, when I was nine years old, I told my three-year-old sister, ‘Do not let anyone touch your private parts.’ Why would a nine-year-old tell a three-year-old that? Where would I have gotten that idea? This was years before sexual abuse and incest was a public topic in the media. Number two, my childhood best friend told me and my twin sister that those two women tried to touch her inappropriately, and my friend had said no. That was the first time the subject was discussed between me and my sister. Sometimes, I still doubt myself about whether it really happened or not, especially when I’m around my family.”

She has never been physically abused. Not sure if she’s been emotionally abused. She writes, “Not …” uh … Oh yeah. She writes, “Not sure.” Any positive experiences with he people who abused you? “Yes. They provided the only attention and caring and ‘love’ that I received as a child. They gave me gifts.” And that’s one of the mindfucks, is the grooming. The grooming, the … price that people pay. And so many predators understand and can so quickly … hone in on that neediness and provide what it is that child’s looking for or a facsimile of it, and use that as the bait to then get what they want.

What are your darkest thoughts? “I can’t wait until my abusers are dead, because what they did messed me up. But also, I can’t wait for my parents to be dead, too, because their neglect allowed the abuse to happen. Then I won’t have to pretend that everything’s all right.” What are your darkest secrets? “My deepest darkest secrets mostly have to do with my long-term history of depression. Basically, since I was first hospitalized at the age of 17, my life has not been ‘normal.’ I barely graduated from high school, I dropped out of college, I haven’t been able to hold down a full-time job, and I moved in with and married someone who supports me because I can’t support myself, and I struggle every day to keep on living despite suicidal ideation and overwhelming feelings of depression.” I think it would be so, so important for you to process what happened to you as fully as possible with somebody who is really experienced, a professional who’s really experienced in dealing with this. Cuz that is, I mean … of COURSE you're experiencing all those things that you are. That you were … like you, the name you used for the survey, you were a prisoner in your own home. And worse than just a prisoner, you were being … tortured. That’s torture.

Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: “My most powerful sexual fantasies involve being used and abused. Not having any control in sexual situations. Feeling powerless. It makes a lot of sense to me, given my abuse history.” What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to, and why? “To my abusers: I hate you for what you did to me. To my parents: I hate you for letting me be hurt and abused. I’d like to say that because I’ve not been able to confront any of them and don’t know if I ever will be ‘strong enough’ to.” What, if anything, do you wish for? “I wish I could not be scared of life, of waking up each day alive. I wish I could trust myself that I would be able to deal with whatever life throws at me.”

Have you shared these things with others. “I've shared these things with my therapist and my husband. It went okay when I shared it.” It, I could be wrong, but just from reading this survey, it sound, it sounds like there isn’t a tremendous amount of processing of it going on with your, your therapist … and maybe, maybe finding a therapist that does, uh, trauma work, PTSD work like EMDR or somatic experiencing. Because stuff that’s buried that, that deep down that our body is still holding on to, it needs … Not only does the, you know, the mind need the release of talking about it, but the body needs the release so that our central nervous system isn’t just constantly on high alert. And that, I think, is probably why you're waking up just terrified to face the world. Who wouldn’t? Look at what your world was like when you were a kid.

How do you feel after writing these things down? “I feel clearer and hopeful that maybe by sharing them, someone else would feel less alone.” Is there anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts our experiences? “That sharing what we think and have experienced is the only way to get through the hard times. I’ve been through a lot of hard times, and social support is crucial to survive them.” Thank you so much for that. It sounds like I’m telling you some stuff that you already know, so I apologize if, um, I sound redundant.

[1:26:36] And then, finally, this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself “My Own Worst Enemy.” And, um, he shares that he’s been in a relationship with his girlfriend for ju-, just over a year. And he writes, “When my girlfriend told me that she identifies as bisexual early on in our relationship, my stomach immediately sank in that moment. Not because I’m against her being her authentic self, or anybody else doing the same, but for me and my self-esteem issues, that meant more people to be jealous of and compare myself to.

Fast-forward to a few weeks ago, my girlfriend told me that she had a physical attraction to a female co-worker of hers, and she didn’t know how to deal with it. Naturally, I withdrew into myself, and had my very first panic attack.” I gotta question whether that was appropriate for your girlfriend to share that with you, especially knowing the issues that you have. I think it would be different if you and your girlfriend … if there wasn’t the issue of, of jealousy, um … Anyway. “I withdrew into myself and had my very first panic attack.

Due to this, I had to let my boss know that I wouldn’t be able to work the following day, due to a panic attack’s debilitating nature. He called me up the next day to check on me, and it turns out he has anxiety, too. He works through self-esteem issues and has had panic attacks on multiple occasions. He even opened up to me and told me that when I need someone to get some shit off my chest, he’d love to listen. And for the very first time that anybody has said that to me, I believed him. Who knew that the person that I thought I would be disappointing by not showing up to work would be the person to relate to me and support me when I needed it most!” Thank you for that. And what a great example of our inability to predict the fruits of opening up and being vulnerable. So thank you, thank you for sharing that.

[1:28:41] And I hope you guys enjoyed today’s episode. And if you're out there and you're, and you're struggling, um, just never forget that you're, that you're not alone. And, um, if you haven’t subscribed yet, hit that subscribe button. And the next few weeks are going to be best-of shows because I’m taking some much needed time off. And, uh, hopefully when I, when I come back, I’ll feel recharged and we should have, uh, new episodes going up, uh, starting, uh, the first Friday in, in August. But, theses episodes that I’m, that I’m putting up that … have been run before are from quite a while ago. And I think they’re great episodes. So, if, even if you’ve heard ‘em before, hopefully you’ll enjoy them. How’s that for me being codependent … for subtly shaming myself for wanting to take a break? (Laughs) Anyway, never forget that you're not alone. And thanks for listening.

End