gmaxwell

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StaffLegendaryActivity: 3192Merit: 4307 [BCT FACT] Bitcointalk was originally on Bitcoin.org but ... drama November 22, 2019, 12:15:56 PM

Last edit: November 22, 2019, 05:12:51 PM by gmaxwell Merited by Welsh (18), theymos (10), Mr. Big (10), Foxpup (8), suchmoon (7), mprep (5), Cøbra (5), dbshck (4), fillippone (4), ETFbitcoin (3), El duderino_ (3), Daniel91 (2), ibminer (2), Halab (2), DdmrDdmr (2), xhomerx10 (1), Hueristic (1), JayJuanGee (1), marlboroza (1), Lafu (1), Raja_MBZ (1), eaLiTy (1), lucky80 (1), Blacknavy (1), TheBeardedBaby (1), FractalUniverse (1), Heisenberg_Hunter (1), madnessteat (1), DireWolfM14 (1), VB1001 (1), lulucrypto (1) #1



Here is the 2011



It seems like people have been systematically nuking logs of Bitcoin's history off the Internet for whatever reason, so many of you who weren't personally there and involved in 2011 probably have not seen this bit of history.



I'll just let the chat logs tell the story of why it was moved and how it got the name bitcointalk.



(I've trimmed out some irrelevant cross-talk and bolded a few lines for interesting events)





2011-06-12 01:47:41 <ArtForz> gaah, I'm gone for 3 days and someone lets the trolls on the forums?

2011-06-12 01:51:52 <noagendamarket> the trolls are really bad

2011-06-12 01:51:57 <ArtForz> yup

2011-06-12 01:52:13 <ArtForz> are the forum mods on vacation or something?

2011-06-12 01:52:21 <noagendamarket> anyone would think they unleashed the troll army

2011-06-12 01:53:13 <noagendamarket> It feels like world of warcraft

2011-06-12 01:54:55 <jgarzik> ArtForz: sigh

2011-06-12 01:55:08 <jgarzik> ArtForz: current email discussion between devs + prominent bitcoiners, about that.

2011-06-12 01:55:26 <jgarzik> ArtForz: we have concluded the forums are totally useless. Gavin just created bitcoin-development mailing list.

2011-06-12 01:55:39 <jgarzik> ArtForz: current forum mods are "anti censorship"

2011-06-12 01:56:10 <MC1984> still trying to stir fud

2011-06-12 01:56:13 <gjs278> where is the list

2011-06-12 01:56:45 <jgarzik> ArtForz: Long term, one proposal is to swap weusecoins forum with current forum, and enforce "business professional" code of conduct on the new forum

2011-06-12 01:56:49 <jgarzik> gjs278: sourceforge

2011-06-12 01:57:03 <gjs278> ok

2011-06-12 01:57:23 <ArtForz> jgarzik: soudns good

2011-06-12 01:58:14 <ArtForz> trying to read up in the general and mining forums... ugh.

2011-06-12 01:58:18 <jgarzik> indeed

2011-06-12 02:00:00 <dirtyfilthy> i think somethingawful good squad has been deployed

2011-06-12 02:00:05 <noagendamarket> yep

2011-06-12 02:00:20 <noagendamarket> someone paid a bounty to have their site hacked

2011-06-12 02:00:26 <noagendamarket> lol

2011-06-12 02:01:27 <jgarzik> anyway, until the forum swap, we need triage

2011-06-12 02:01:36 <jgarzik> either "no newbie posts" or "newbies cannot create threads" or somesuch

2011-06-12 02:01:47 <ArtForz> how about "nuke it from orbit" ?

2011-06-12 02:01:58 <ArtForz> j/k

2011-06-12 02:02:07 <ArtForz> well, it's the only way to be sure...

2011-06-12 02:02:09 <jgarzik>

...

2011-06-12 02:16:50 <MC1984> wow the bitcoin forums are irredeemable

2011-06-12 02:31:39 <jgarzik> MC1984: yes

2011-06-12 02:37:04 <brocktice> MC1984: Yeah I haven't delved in much lately, I hear it's troll central?

2011-06-12 02:38:16 <noagendamarket> the forums hit a trollberg

2011-06-12 02:40:43 <Diablo-D3> the bitcoin forums are just too high traffic

2011-06-12 02:40:48 <theymos> Who here uses the forum a lot and wants to be a mod?

2011-06-12 02:40:49 <Diablo-D3> I dont read any of it except very specific threads

2011-06-12 02:40:54 <Diablo-D3> theymos: me.

2011-06-12 02:41:04 <Diablo-D3> I just want mod powers on the mining part

2011-06-12 02:41:37 <jgarzik> theymos: will you give me permission to lock just about even damn thread? or prevent newbies from creating new threads?

2011-06-12 02:41:38 <theymos> Your account is "DiabloD3"?

2011-06-12 02:41:42 <jgarzik> *every

2011-06-12 02:41:54 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yes

2011-06-12 02:41:57 <theymos> No point in locking them -- just delete troll threads.

2011-06-12 02:42:05 <jgarzik> that works too

2011-06-12 02:42:14 <noagendamarket> lock them unless you have certain post levels

2011-06-12 02:42:30 <theymos> They're all backed up in case of false positives. There's too much junk. Lots needs to be deleted.

2011-06-12 02:42:37 <jgarzik> yep

2011-06-12 02:42:57 <jgarzik> theymos: and _please_ don't post a "moved" or "deleted" thread, for each one...

2011-06-12 02:42:58 <Diablo-D3> theymos: you can set it so only established users can start threads

2011-06-12 02:43:00 <jgarzik> shades of Kiba

2011-06-12 02:43:22 <theymos> I'm going to prevent non-established posters from posting at all for a while.

2011-06-12 02:43:46 <Diablo-D3> why not just turn registrations off for awhile

2011-06-12 02:43:52 <Diablo-D3> OOH

2011-06-12 02:43:53 <Diablo-D3> I KNOW

2011-06-12 02:43:55 <Diablo-D3> HEY THEYMOS

2011-06-12 02:44:03 <Diablo-D3> MAKE PEOPLE PAY BTC FOR NEW ACCOUNT

2011-06-12 02:44:13 <theymos> jgarzik and Diablo are now global moderators (for now). Please only delete spam and trolling.

2011-06-12 02:44:33 <Diablo-D3> theymos: how do I sticky threads?

2011-06-12 02:44:39 <theymos> Don't sticky threads.

...

2011-06-12 03:07:07 <jgarzik> theymos: how/where do I delete an entire thread?

2011-06-12 03:07:25 <jgarzik> theymos: I see 'Delete' beside each post, but not at top where I would expect

2011-06-12 03:07:28 <theymos> jgarzik: Bottom of the thread, "remove topic".

2011-06-12 03:08:26 <jgarzik> theymos: tnx

2011-06-12 03:09:13 <theymos> SMF is really not good for fighting trolls. It's too much work to take any administrative action. I used to moderate on a site where moderation was so easy a single person could fight an active invasion of twice this size or more. Probably I'll make modifications in this area once I get time.

2011-06-12 03:13:10 <jgarzik> theymos: ugh

2011-06-12 03:13:17 <jgarzik> theymos: fscking impossible, with the forum so slow

2011-06-12 03:13:19 <jgarzik> I give up

2011-06-12 03:13:29 <theymos> It seems pretty fast to me.

2011-06-12 03:14:07 <jgarzik> theymos: deleting 1,001 troll threads one at a time is... tedious, even if it only takes ~10-20 seconds per thread

2011-06-12 03:14:27 <theymos> jgarzik: enable quick-moderation in your profile settings. You'll get checkboxes for threads.

2011-06-12 03:15:14 <theymos> Here's the page with the setting: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=35;sa=theme . It's near the bottom.

2011-06-12 03:15:24 <noagendamarket> can we get a proper forum software ffs

2011-06-12 03:15:29 <jgarzik> theymos: that helps

2011-06-12 03:15:34 <genewitch> theymos: i've been posting all day... it just blocked me out after 6 hours

2011-06-12 03:15:42 <theymos> genewitch: I just changed the policy.

2011-06-12 03:16:38 <jgarzik> theymos: can we disable animated images?

2011-06-12 03:16:40 <theymos> genewitch: I will whitelist you. Just a moment.

2011-06-12 03:16:44 <genewitch> Thank you sir.

2011-06-12 03:16:48 <jgarzik> theymos: image spam drowns out a lot of threads, too

2011-06-12 03:16:49 <genewitch> or ma'am

2011-06-12 03:17:44 <Diablo-D3> dear lord

2011-06-12 03:17:48 <Diablo-D3> the rest of the forum

2011-06-12 03:17:51 <Diablo-D3> is whacko bullshit

2011-06-12 03:17:57 <theymos> Delete it all.

2011-06-12 03:18:03 <luke-jr> theymos: what will it take to split the dev/mining forums appropriately?

2011-06-12 03:18:04 <Diablo-D3> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15351.msg204817

2011-06-12 03:18:08 <Diablo-D3> this thread for one

2011-06-12 03:18:42 <Diablo-D3> theymos: think I should nuke it? its troll vs troll vs troll cagematch kinda shit

2011-06-12 03:19:05 <theymos> I locked it because there seemed to be some OK responses. But I dont' really care.

2011-06-12 03:19:27 <Diablo-D3> so I can nuke it? I dont think we really need this shit even readable

2011-06-12 03:19:34 <theymos> Sure.

2011-06-12 03:19:42 <luke-jr> eek, does Diablo-D3 have mod access? :>

2011-06-12 03:19:44 <genewitch> I didn't notice much spam on the devel boards

2011-06-12 03:19:55 <luke-jr> genewitch: it could use categorization though

2011-06-12 03:19:59 <Diablo-D3> 15_year_old_blonde probably should be banned too

2011-06-12 03:20:07 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Already done.

2011-06-12 03:20:13 <luke-jr> genewitch: for the many different softwares or at least types of software

2011-06-12 03:20:34 <genewitch> do i have to delete a cookie to get my "reply" button back?

2011-06-12 03:20:55 <theymos> genewitch: Are you able to post now?

2011-06-12 03:21:52 <genewitch> theymos: no, not in the Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Project Development

2011-06-12 03:21:55 <genewitch> threads

2011-06-12 03:21:58 <theymos> genewitch: Oh, wait. It didn't work. It might take me a bit to figure this out.

...

2011-06-12 03:31:03 <luke-jr> theymos: why the heck is Diablo-D3 a mod? he's a freaking troll

2011-06-12 03:31:56 <theymos> luke-jr: Maybe that will help him to identify other trolls.

...

2011-06-12 03:33:19 <theymos> Global mods made tonight are probably temporary. This mess just needs to be cleaned up. Though DiabloD3 will probably stay at least a local mod of mining, since he is a long-time community member with expertise in this area.

...

2011-06-12 04:02:40 <jgarzik> theymos: is there any way to make someone read-only (disable posting)? Atlas isn't too happy about the animated image thing

2011-06-12 04:03:25 <jgarzik> theymos: I don't want to ban him, though

2011-06-12 04:03:27 <theymos> jgarzik: What animated image thing?

2011-06-12 04:03:28 <genewitch> jgarzik: not here, and there's no errors whatsoever :-/ but clients can connect to it, and bitcoind hands out work just fine, and the frontend is assigning passwords and stuff

2011-06-12 04:03:35 <jgarzik> theymos: animated image signature

2011-06-12 04:03:59 <theymos> Are you deleting all of his posts because he has an animated signature?

2011-06-12 04:04:19 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: I don't want to ban him permanently

2011-06-12 04:04:24 <jgarzik> theymos: damn right I am

2011-06-12 04:04:33 <luke-jr> .

2011-06-12 04:04:33 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: well, give him a warning

2011-06-12 04:04:37 <Diablo-D3> be an annoying fucker again

2011-06-12 04:04:38 <Diablo-D3> its perm

2011-06-12 04:04:44 <theymos> That's not cool. He has lots of good posts. I'll just remove his signature.

2011-06-12 04:04:45 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: already done -- and already ignored

2011-06-12 04:05:10 <jgarzik> <shrug> he refuses to change his sig. making a personal stand. I presume he will just change his sig back.

2011-06-12 04:05:13 <Diablo-D3> images shouldnt be allowed in sigs

2011-06-12 04:05:20 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: 1000% agreed

2011-06-12 04:06:10 <jgarzik> theymos: whatever makes his sig stop appearing, that's fine

2011-06-12 04:12:51 <theymos> jgarzik is no longer a moderator because I now have to restore like 50 of Atlas's posts...

2011-06-12 04:21:11 <jgarzik> theymos: <rolls eyes>

2011-06-12 04:21:21 <jgarzik> Just confirms that the forum is toast

2011-06-12 04:21:29 <Diablo-D3> the forum has too much fucking traffic

2011-06-12 04:21:33 <Diablo-D3> but I think I saved the mining forum

2011-06-12 04:21:37 <Diablo-D3> er, section

2011-06-12 04:21:45 <gmaxwell> :-/

2011-06-12 04:21:50 <gmaxwell> The forum is a cesspool.

2011-06-12 04:21:51 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: bitcoin-development list was just created @ SF by Gavin

2011-06-12 04:21:56 <jgarzik> devs agree

2011-06-12 04:22:08 <gmaxwell> I don't know what posts that jgarzik moderated, but I find it hard to believe that it wasn't crap.

2011-06-12 04:22:09 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: url?

2011-06-12 04:22:16 <jgarzik> and it's utterly impossible to show forum to reporters or business professionals

2011-06-12 04:22:50 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=244765

2011-06-12 04:23:31 <theymos> The forum is more than just Bitcoin development. It is (supposed to be) a good, low-moderation forum for discussion of many topics. Moderation needs to be increased when there is a ton of trolls, however.

2011-06-12 04:23:44 <gmaxwell> What jgarzik said. I'm embarassed to tell friends about bitcoin for fear that they'll load the forums and find a wall of dickhead blabbering on about black helicopters and prediction markets for killing babies or whatever.

2011-06-12 04:24:28 <Diablo-D3> yeah

2011-06-12 04:24:34 <jgarzik> discussion among devs + major exchange ops + major pool ops seems to lean towards swapping weusecoins forum with current forum

2011-06-12 04:24:45 <jgarzik> and then pushing for "business professional" conduct

2011-06-12 04:25:14 <Graet> i like that

2011-06-12 04:25:50 <Graet> is there somwhere small/new pool owners can join to observe (apart from in here?)

2011-06-12 04:25:58 <gmaxwell> I do too. I'm not really too concerned with people being rude as I am about people being crazy. But asking people to behave professional is probable adequate.

2011-06-12 04:26:31 <noagendamarket> jgarzik that sounds like an excellent idea

2011-06-12 04:26:36 <genewitch> people who own fast video cards generally aren't professional

2011-06-12 04:26:41 <genewitch> i'm just throwing that out there.

2011-06-12 04:27:32 <jgarzik> genewitch: and they can stay on the "old" forum after the switch...

2011-06-12 04:27:38 <jgarzik> genewitch: you're not wrong, though

2011-06-12 04:28:13 <theymos> A separate professional forum is fine, but I like the "unprofessional" forum.

2011-06-12 04:28:58 <gmaxwell> genewitch: Even most 14 year olds can behave if required to. I don't see the problem there.

2011-06-12 04:29:07 <jgarzik> theymos: it needs to move away from *.bitcoin.org

2011-06-12 04:29:19 <noagendamarket> just make the current forum nsfw/unregulated as a section in the new forum

2011-06-12 04:29:34 <jgarzik> noagendamarket: no, that just leads downhill quickly

2011-06-12 04:29:46 <genewitch> e.g. 4chan

2011-06-12 04:29:51 <jgarzik> yes

2011-06-12 04:29:58 <gmaxwell> theymos: sure, there should be a forum to shitcan the nutbags into so they can talk about buying babymulching with bitcon without bothering everyone else.

2011-06-12 04:30:25 <gmaxwell> genewitch: "the letter b means bitcoin, go post over there"

2011-06-12 04:30:25 <theymos> I happen to like 4chan...

2011-06-12 04:30:33 <Netsniper> you can buy babymulchers with bitcoins?

2011-06-12 04:31:00 <nanotube> theymos: what about making a mod queue, assuming we can get enough reasonable people to be mods? before post goes live, has to be approved?

2011-06-12 04:31:13 <gmaxwell> Netsniper: dunno but if so you'd expect to learn all about it in graphic detail on the bitcoin forums.

2011-06-12 04:31:37 <nanotube> theymos: can mark certain users as perma-ok, so only need to do this on new people. good way to thwart trollwaves?

2011-06-12 04:31:54 <gmaxwell> nanotube: I think theymos already commented on what he thought about reasonable moderation above when he commented on jgarzik moderating.

2011-06-12 04:32:35 <theymos> nanotube: I'd be OK with that (for new users). Maybe only enabled when there are lots of trolls.

2011-06-12 04:32:46 <nanotube> theymos: right, a 'panic mode'

2011-06-12 04:32:52 <theymos> Yes.

2011-06-12 04:32:54 <noagendamarket> heh

2011-06-12 04:32:57 <nanotube> gmaxwell:

2011-06-12 04:33:12 <theymos> I increased required time between posts to 5 minutes. I bet that'll help.

2011-06-12 04:33:31 <nanotube> how hard would it be to implement? does that come built into smf, the mod-queue bits?

2011-06-12 04:33:46 <gmaxwell> That will just annoy normal users and the crapflooders who don't know how to select tor exits, no?

2011-06-12 04:33:55 <nanotube> Graet: cheers

2011-06-12 04:34:01 <Graet>

2011-06-12 04:34:03 <theymos> nanotube: It doesn't come built in.

2011-06-12 04:34:11 <nanotube> gmaxwell: based on user accounts, not ips.

2011-06-12 04:34:24 <nanotube> gmaxwell: and based on account age

2011-06-12 04:34:44 <nanotube> so 'normal users' who are not made-this-week, won't see any changes, ideally.

2011-06-12 04:34:48 <theymos> I would totally redesign the forum system if I had time. The current moderation scheme is very bad.

2011-06-12 04:35:09 <nanotube> theymos: well, how about phpbb's system? that seems to be the most popular forum sw

2011-06-12 04:35:19 <nanotube> though i can't say i have experience with it myself

2011-06-12 04:35:23 <theymos> That's just about the same, IIRC.

2011-06-12 04:35:28 <jgarzik> [ANN] New bitcoin development mailing list - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15527.0

2011-06-12 04:35:31 <nanotube> theymos: iow, also shitty?

2011-06-12 04:35:50 <nanotube> jgarzik: who controls who's allowed to post? hope that's moderated.

2011-06-12 04:36:47 <gmaxwell> nanotube: usually unmoderating new users on the first good post, and then kicking off people who are complete idiots is more than enough.

2011-06-12 04:37:04 <gmaxwell> I think most of the problems on the forums are a few jerks plus an overall stupid culture.

2011-06-12 04:37:12 <Diablo-D3> theymos: so, lets see if my plan cuts down on the absolute bullshit that is the miner section

2011-06-12 04:37:15 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: dude

2011-06-12 04:37:18 <Diablo-D3> 90% of people

2011-06-12 04:37:20 <Diablo-D3> suck dick

2011-06-12 04:37:40 <Diablo-D3> hitler was wrong... why kill jews when you can ground stupid people up for cat food?

2011-06-12 04:37:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: most people can pretend to be reasonable if they know that its required and expected.

2011-06-12 04:37:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: bullshit

2011-06-12 04:38:03 <nanotube> gmaxwell: that'd work just as well. as long as there's /some/ barrier to entry, in addition to just creating an account.

2011-06-12 04:38:06 <Diablo-D3> do I have to go find the commercial from that one movie theatre that bans text messages?

2011-06-12 04:38:28 <gmaxwell> I mean, I assume you have a job and such and that you don't act like you do on IRC everywhere else

2011-06-12 04:38:31 <gmaxwell>

2011-06-12 04:39:57 <jgarzik> nanotube: unmoderated... we'll see what happens

2011-06-12 04:40:10 <theymos> Anyone want to be a mod for the newbie section? It's going too fast for me to handle.

2011-06-12 04:40:18 <jgarzik> nanotube: I doubt 4chan people know what email is

2011-06-12 04:40:38 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha they can probably read wikipedia about it and figure it out, given sufficient time, though.

2011-06-12 04:40:41 <theymos> You know, there are plenty of very good discussions on 4chan outside of /b/...

2011-06-12 04:40:45 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: nope, I pretty much wont stand for bullshit anywhere

2011-06-12 04:41:19 <nanotube> theymos: what's the newbie section? must be new? is it "people with accounts < 1week old can only post here" board? or some such?

2011-06-12 04:41:20 <gmaxwell> nanotube: if it gets too bad require new users pay 1btc to the faucet to join.

2011-06-12 04:41:21 <genewitch> i may be biased but as i mentioned earlier xkcd forums sort of automod anyone that posts pictures, links, etc in the first 10 posts, and usually require the first post to be in a huge newbie introduction thread.

2011-06-12 04:41:35 <genewitch> it's a tiny barrier to entry, that will shuffle out all but the most anal of trolls

2011-06-12 04:42:02 <gmaxwell> genewitch: barriers to entry usually toss more good users than trolls... you only notice the troll reduction.

2011-06-12 04:42:05 <theymos> nanotube: Yes, though it's based on post counts since SMF doesn't support age restrictions (or at least not both age+post, which is necessary).

2011-06-12 04:42:08 <nanotube> gmaxwell: haha indeed, that'd be cool.

2011-06-12 04:42:47 <nanotube> theymos: ah i see. well, the ability to pump up post count by spamming the newbie section seems... counterproductive.

2011-06-12 04:42:51 <gmaxwell> genewitch: a troll is trying to cause trouble and is burning effort to do it. A good person is probably instead trying to do _you_ a favor. Making it cost more to do you good isn't a good tradeoff.

2011-06-12 04:43:01 <theymos> nanotube: That's why mods are needed.

2011-06-12 04:43:23 <nanotube> so is that section auto-moderated? i.e., post doesn't make it through before mod lets it?

2011-06-12 04:43:26 <genewitch> i would mod if i had time

2011-06-12 04:43:36 <theymos> nanotube: Nope, SMF doesn't support that, either.

...

2011-06-14 17:59:54 <topi`> jgarzik: what's your issue with drugs, anywys?

2011-06-14 18:00:18 <topi`> of course drugs ought to be mentioned whenever somebody mentions bitcoin

2011-06-14 18:00:35 <sipa> ...

2011-06-14 18:00:43 <topi`> it's just unfortunate that drugs are not mentioned whenever people talk about plain chas.

2011-06-14 18:00:46 <topi`> cash.

2011-06-14 18:00:54 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: only if you want to give schumer and his ilk more ammo ...

2011-06-14 18:01:02 <topi`> sorry to come in the discussion too late wife needed help with homework

2011-06-14 18:01:22 <topi`> jrmithdobbs: I regard that as a problem internal to the USA

2011-06-14 18:01:46 <topi`> although I'm losing faith that something as stupid would not happen in european politics.

2011-06-14 18:01:58 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: whether you like or not us legislation against bitcoin will have global consequences

2011-06-14 18:02:11 <topi`> jrmithdobbs: that remains to be seen (I don't believe that personally)

2011-06-14 18:02:30 <topi`> some african countries will find out that they benefit immensely from things like bitcoin

2011-06-14 18:02:35 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: just like anti-internet-gambling laws, KYC, etc haven't had global implications *rolleyes*

2011-06-14 18:02:38 <topi`> of course Mugabe will try to ban it

2011-06-14 18:03:03 <jrmithdobbs> (if you don't catch the sarcasm they ... they very obviously have)

2011-06-14 18:03:21 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: or the DMCA etc, the list goes on

2011-06-14 18:03:44 <topi`> yep, it all started with DMCA

2011-06-14 18:03:51 <topi`> I think it was already back in 2000

2011-06-14 18:04:10 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: point was, us legislation against is detrimental no matter what you think of the US and it's foreign policy

2011-06-14 18:04:20 <topi`> but I have funded EFF, for what it's worth, in order to fight these things

2011-06-14 18:04:28 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: therefore distancing official stances from LOL DRUGS LOL and silkroad is beneficial.

2011-06-14 18:04:30 <TD> well, the EFF didn't want your donations, it turns out

2011-06-14 18:04:41 <TD> they're giving the funding back, perhaps to the faucet

2011-06-14 18:04:49 <TD> (i mean the bitcoin funding)

2011-06-14 18:05:01 <jrmithdobbs> TD: they couldn't figure out how to tax it / etc

2011-06-14 18:05:18 <cosurgi> forum is slashdotted?

2011-06-14 18:05:28 <TD> topi`: anyway the people actually doing work don't tend to agree with you

2011-06-14 18:05:36 <jrmithdobbs> diki: "patterns" always emerge to those looking for them. they're usually false patterns.

2011-06-14 18:05:47 <TD> topi`: if you think it's a good idea to heavily promote criminal behavior as a use case for bitcoin, you need to familiarize yourself with the eGold case

2011-06-14 18:05:50 <topi`> TD: what kind of work?

2011-06-14 18:05:50 <diki> i sincerely hope

2011-06-14 18:05:55 <diki> that you are not right

2011-06-14 18:05:58 <TD> topi`: writing code. running exchanges, etc

2011-06-14 18:06:06 <topi`> TD: drugs aren't criminal things in some countries

2011-06-14 18:06:12 <TD> no, but they are in many

2011-06-14 18:06:17 <topi`> alcohol is a drug, for what it's worth

2011-06-14 18:06:17 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: doesn't matter

2011-06-14 18:06:18 <TD> like the countries where developers live

2011-06-14 18:06:32 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: all the actual work on bitcoin and related software is verifiably being done in places where they are illegal

2011-06-14 18:06:53 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: you realise that anti-bitcoin legislation would make jgarzik and gavin criminals defacto, right?

2011-06-14 18:06:59 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: you understand why this is bad, right?

2011-06-14 18:07:11 <TD> sadly a lot of people jumping on the bitcoin bandwagon, apparently don't understand that

2011-06-14 18:07:32 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: if the lead devs can no longer contribute because of legal hassles it will come tumbling down

2011-06-14 18:07:50 <jeremias> hmm

2011-06-14 18:08:02 <jeremias> isn't bitcoin software pretty stable currently

2011-06-14 18:08:09 <TD> it needs constant work to keep up with the network scaling

2011-06-14 18:08:18 <TD> not having devs is not an option. the system is already creaking under the load

...

2011-06-14 18:10:04 <TD> anyway, bitcoin has no future as a purely black market currency, because you need to be able to exchange with existing currencies

2011-06-14 18:14:14 <TD> anyway. to get back "on topic", public service announcement: do not promote drugs or other criminal activity as a legitimate use case of bitcoin

...

2011-06-15 03:29:06 <jgarzik> theymos: what's the status on moving the forums to another domain?

2011-06-15 03:29:42 <theymos> I don't like the idea, so I'm not going to do it. Sirius can do it if he wants.

2011-06-15 03:31:59 <jgarzik> rather unilateral, for a decentralized project

...

2011-06-15 03:35:29 <jgarzik> genewitch: no, pretty much the entire dev team, major pool operators, major exchange ops, and lots of users think the forums have become a ghetto, and are becoming an embarrassment to the bitcoin project

2011-06-15 03:35:44 <jgarzik> one person disagrees

2011-06-15 03:35:55 <genewitch> jgarzik: ask moot to make a /bc/ topic

2011-06-15 03:36:02 <jgarzik> rofl

2011-06-15 03:36:22 <genewitch> i only see the dev forums and the pool forums sometimes, so i don't see the ghetto.

2011-06-15 03:37:09 <genewitch> jgarzik: so the dev team and pool operators want a seperate more professional forum?

2011-06-15 03:37:41 <jgarzik> genewitch: a more professional forum, yes, but more importantly stop presenting the current forum as "The Official Bitcoin Project Forum"

2011-06-15 03:38:04 <jgarzik> which it's not, with so many major peeps abandoning it

2011-06-15 03:38:14 <theymos> I'm in support of not presenting it as the official forum. I just don't want to move it from bitcoin.org.

2011-06-15 03:38:29 <jgarzik> theymos: anything on bitcoin.org is clearly official

2011-06-15 03:38:49 <theymos> Let's change that perception.

2011-06-15 03:39:03 <genewitch> jgarzik: you want the "good" forums on forum.bitcoin.org and the current forums on a different domain?

2011-06-15 03:39:10 <jgarzik> theymos: show me _one_ other person who actually thinks that is possible. just one.

2011-06-15 03:39:26 <theymos> I'm sure I could find someone if I asked around.

2011-06-15 03:39:42 <jgarzik> bitcoin.org was started by satoshi, and it's all over the print media, online media, search engines and ... duh .. it matches the project's name.

2011-06-15 03:39:45 <genewitch> does that mean like drop database and start over with forum.bitcoin.org?

2011-06-15 03:39:50 <jgarzik> nobody thinks that is realistic

2011-06-15 03:39:53 <jgarzik> genewitch: no!

2011-06-15 03:39:55 <theymos> The weusecoins guy reacted positively to my idea.

2011-06-15 03:39:58 <cacheson> theymos: people are naturally going to assume that subdomains of bitcoin are official, there's nothing you can really do about that

2011-06-15 03:40:09 <cacheson> er, subdomains of bitcoin.org

2011-06-15 03:40:27 <jgarzik> genewitch: no one is proposing deleting or turning off anything

2011-06-15 03:40:31 <jgarzik> genewitch: just moving away from *.bitcoin.org

2011-06-15 03:40:36 <theymos> Not very "decentralized" of you to demand that any website be "official" at all. I argue that there should be no official websites.

2011-06-15 03:40:47 <genewitch> except mine

2011-06-15 03:40:49 <genewitch> mine is official

2011-06-15 03:40:52 <jgarzik> theymos: then let's not have -any- forum on bitcoin.org

2011-06-15 03:41:11 <jgarzik> theymos: ceasing use of bitcoin.org would be fine

2011-06-15 03:41:12 <genewitch> jgarzik: the wiki can link to forums for bitcoin users

2011-06-15 03:41:53 <jgarzik> theymos: you cannot have it both ways. if you truly want "no official websites" then let's stop using bitcoin.org altogether.

2011-06-15 03:41:56 <genewitch> hey you guys remember webrings? we should bring that back.

2011-06-15 03:42:06 <thallium205> hahaha

2011-06-15 03:42:38 <theymos> Why is bitcoin.org necessarily official? It's not linked anywhere in the program. No development takes place there. No developers own it.

2011-06-15 03:42:54 <cacheson> genewitch: for stuff like "my super-awesome geocities bitcoin homepage"?

2011-06-15 03:43:08 <gjs278> I'm highly opposed to how crappy bitcoin.org is

2011-06-15 03:43:09 <genewitch> cacheson: exactly

2011-06-15 03:43:12 <mrb_> one more thing to consider is that using different domains makes it (a bit) harder for a government to go through the redtape to block access to all domains

2011-06-15 03:43:14 <gjs278> I was very vocal about this like two months ago

2011-06-15 03:43:25 <luke-jr> jgarzik: bitcoin.org doesn't have any claim of "official" IMO

2011-06-15 03:43:39 <theymos> Ha! There's one person who agrees with me.

2011-06-15 03:43:40 <mrb_> (thinking of The Great Firewall and other repressive countries)

2011-06-15 03:43:42 <luke-jr> theymos: the program isn't official either

2011-06-15 03:43:42 <gjs278> it's the title of our channel

2011-06-15 03:43:48 <gjs278> if it's not official take it out

2011-06-15 03:43:49 <cacheson> theymos: eh, bitcoin.org is a decent place for the mainline client

2011-06-15 03:43:59 <cacheson> theymos: it's like getting openoffice from openoffice.org, etc.

2011-06-15 03:44:10 <genewitch> luke-jr: maybe not "officially" if you'll pardon me for a second here but as mentioned when someone mentions bitcoin in the media it references bitcoin.org, hence it becomes the defacto official server.

2011-06-15 03:44:12 <luke-jr> IMO, bitcoin.org should be like weusecoins.com

2011-06-15 03:44:26 <jgarzik> should be... but isn't

2011-06-15 03:44:37 <theymos> luke-jr: That's exactly my position.

2011-06-15 03:44:40 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I would be fine with that

2011-06-15 03:44:48 <jgarzik> luke-jr: as long as the forums aren't on there

2011-06-15 03:45:09 <luke-jr> if you guys don't think a forum is appropriate, I'd be welcome to have something on bitgit.org (or whatever TLD I ended up with)

2011-06-15 03:45:10 <thallium205> bittorrent is highly decentralized, but there still exists bittorrent.com (and it has community forums)

2011-06-15 03:45:21 <jgarzik> there is not a single forum linked on weusecoins.com

2011-06-15 03:45:22 <genewitch> can't the devs and powerusers switch to a bugzilla/regular forum format and let the community host the user forums?

2011-06-15 03:45:24 <gjs278> bittorrent.com is nowhere near as official as bitcoin.org tries to be

2011-06-15 03:45:36 <luke-jr> which I had planned to be a hosting site for Bitcoin-related projects (incl bug tracker, git, etc)

2011-06-15 03:45:39 <gjs278> but that's due to there being hundreds of clients

2011-06-15 03:46:02 <luke-jr> gjs278: forums in general are irregular

2011-06-15 03:46:10 <gjs278> they are

2011-06-15 03:46:47 <genewitch> basically what i am hearing here is that we wish there were an opensource way for people to collaborate and ask questions on the internet semi anonymously?

2011-06-15 03:46:50 <jgarzik> luke-jr: so you actively support illegal activity?

2011-06-15 03:46:51 <gjs278> if bitcoin.org is the officlal website, it should be in a public repo the same as the "official client"

2011-06-15 03:46:58 <genewitch> Where nodes could come on and drop off and not really affect the whole?

2011-06-15 03:47:01 <genewitch> I think this exists.

2011-06-15 03:47:12 <genewitch> hold on i have to google the name

2011-06-15 03:47:13 <luke-jr> jgarzik: what? no

2011-06-15 03:47:25 <theymos> I support some types of illegal activity. Free trade, for example.

2011-06-15 03:47:26 <luke-jr> gjs278: there is no official

2011-06-15 03:47:40 <gjs278> bitcoin.org is in our title, we give the impression away that it is official

2011-06-15 03:47:47 <genewitch> oh i found it! It's called IRC!

2011-06-15 03:47:53 <theymos> Why is bitcoin.it not official?

2011-06-15 03:48:05 <genewitch> theymos: cause who's ever heard of .it

2011-06-15 03:48:05 <luke-jr> gjs278: this channel isn't official either. there is no official, or Bitcoin becomes the Fed

2011-06-15 03:48:09 <gjs278> the sourceforge page should be linked here, not bitcoin.org

2011-06-15 03:48:17 <jgarzik> um, satoshi did not register bitcoin.it. the press does not link to bitcoin.it.

2011-06-15 03:48:29 <jgarzik> ...as "official bitcoin website"

2011-06-15 03:48:33 <genewitch> defacto "official" the media have to link somewhere

2011-06-15 03:48:57 <genewitch> jgarzik: you mean "just google it" isn't a valid way to get users to the community?

2011-06-15 03:50:12 <luke-jr> I propose Bitcoin.org be a general repository of links to community resources, laid out for newbies

2011-06-15 03:50:32 <luke-jr> ie, download page links to most popular client at the time

2011-06-15 03:50:35 <jgarzik> luke-jr: sounds great

2011-06-15 03:50:37 <luke-jr> maybe to be voted in every year

2011-06-15 03:50:38 <genewitch> luke-jr: can it have animated balls and marquees?

2011-06-15 03:50:41 <jgarzik> luke-jr: like weusecoins.com...

2011-06-15 03:50:41 <luke-jr> or month, if it gets competitive

2011-06-15 03:50:59 <luke-jr> jgarzik: yeah, maybe bitcoin.org should just forward there

2011-06-15 03:51:00 <gjs278> it's all up to whoever owns the site to do that

2011-06-15 03:51:10 <luke-jr> sirius-m does IIRC

2011-06-15 03:51:24 <jgarzik> luke-jr: RE illegal activity: people are actively soliticing illegal activity on the forums. "bitcoin.org as official website" passes the layperson's obviousness test, and that's a major problem. bitcoinj might end due to that, for example.

2011-06-15 03:51:29 <jgarzik> it's become a serious problem

2011-06-15 03:51:46 <genewitch> jgarzik: more active policing

2011-06-15 03:51:49 <jgarzik> trying to convince businesses to accept bitcoins under those conditions is... difficult

2011-06-15 03:51:50 <genewitch> jgarzik: pay in BTC

2011-06-15 03:51:55 <jgarzik> genewitch: theymos is the police

2011-06-15 03:52:05 <jgarzik> genewitch: centralized administrator by fiat

2011-06-15 03:52:09 <luke-jr> jgarzik: ok, good reason to (re)move the fourms from bitcoin.org :p

2011-06-15 03:52:13 <genewitch> he needs to deputize peopl

2011-06-15 03:52:16 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes

2011-06-15 03:52:29 <gjs278> good reason to not use bitcoin.org because one guy has complete control over it

2011-06-15 03:52:31 <jgarzik> genewitch: anybody who tries to delete signs of illegal activity has their mod powers yanked

2011-06-15 03:52:44 <luke-jr> jgarzik: srsly?

2011-06-15 03:52:45 <jgarzik> gjs278: unfortunately we cannot tell the press nor google that

2011-06-15 03:52:49 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes

2011-06-15 03:52:52 <luke-jr>

2011-06-15 03:52:59 <genewitch> businesses don't know how to use BTC. also the "it's used for illict activity" is a silly excuse. Every American $20 has more cocaine on it than ink.

2011-06-15 03:53:03 <gjs278> yeah it is a little late now

2011-06-15 03:53:07 <genewitch> er don't know how to use forums*

2011-06-15 03:53:09 <theymos> That's not true at all. I've never removed a moderator. And I'm not the only administrator: Gavin was the one who made me an admin.

2011-06-15 03:53:16 <luke-jr> my worthless vote goes to moving forums off bitcoin.org, and censoring them heavily

2011-06-15 03:53:30 <jgarzik> theymos: blatant lie. you removed my mod powers.

2011-06-15 03:53:31 <luke-jr> and splitting the subforums more

2011-06-15 03:53:37 <luke-jr>

2011-06-15 03:53:40 <gjs278> force everyone to gpg auth to forum post

2011-06-15 03:53:53 <genewitch> gjs278: screw that gpg is annoying

2011-06-15 03:53:54 <theymos> That modship was only temporary. I said it at the time.

2011-06-15 03:53:58 <gjs278> exactly

2011-06-15 03:53:59 <jgarzik> uh huh

2011-06-15 03:54:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik: he did say it was for 24 hours..

2011-06-15 03:54:11 <jgarzik> luke-jr: it lasted < 60 minutes

2011-06-15 03:54:15 <luke-jr> O.o

2011-06-15 03:54:31 <gjs278> I would trust the cbs interview man to fairly moderate the bitcoin.org forums

2011-06-15 03:54:36 <luke-jr> well, I think everyone agrees forums shouldn't be on bitcoin.org at least? XD

2011-06-15 03:54:42 <jgarzik> theymos: will you make me moderator again, and permit me to delete posts encouraging illegal activity?

2011-06-15 03:54:53 <gjs278> ;;ident jgarzik

2011-06-15 03:54:54 <gribble> Nick 'jgarzik', with hostmask 'jgarzik!~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik', is not identified.

2011-06-15 03:54:55 <cacheson> luke-jr: theymos doesn't, hence the argument

2011-06-15 03:55:11 <theymos> No. It is the policy of the forum to allow such discussions. Sirius owns the server, so he can change the policy if he's worried about legal action.

2011-06-15 03:55:11 <gjs278> I'm not convinced this is the real jgarzik, don't mod him yet

2011-06-15 03:55:48 <genewitch> i know how to tell

2011-06-15 03:56:02 <genewitch> jgarzik: pushpoold is not updating my hashrate in the database, what up with that

2011-06-15 03:56:19 <jgarzik> ;;ident

2011-06-15 03:56:19 <gribble> You are identified as user jgarzik, with GPG key id DA1DC20F2DBF0CA8, and key fingerprint 60B00235B3355D84BF2A4E35DA1DC20F2DBF0CA8.

2011-06-15 03:56:22 <jgarzik> Now I'm me

2011-06-15 03:56:26 <gjs278> mod this man

2011-06-15 03:56:39 <luke-jr> sounds like nothing will get accomplished without sirius-m in the discussion

2011-06-15 03:57:32 <genewitch> well, i mean there are ways of preventing users from accessing something

2011-06-15 03:57:53 <luke-jr> genewitch: you're not implying we DDoS the forums I hope? :/

2011-06-15 03:57:58 <genewitch> no never

2011-06-15 03:58:10 <genewitch> i meant ask nicely

2011-06-15 03:58:42 <jgarzik> official website bitcoin.org points to the forums on forums.bitcoin.org. new users are essentially automatically directed there.

2011-06-15 03:59:01 <theymos> I'd be fine with removing the link.

2011-06-15 03:59:40 <jgarzik> it needs to move away from the satoshi's domain

2011-06-15 03:59:58 <genewitch> jgarzik: well, i mean, a comprimise sounds good for this instant

2011-06-15 04:00:15 <genewitch> we might see less influx of complete idiots if there's no link on the quote official unquote page

2011-06-15 04:00:19 <luke-jr> yep, nothing is going to change significant without sirius-m

2011-06-15 04:00:38 <jgarzik> hooray for centralized control of a decentralized project...

2011-06-15 04:01:32 <genewitch> jgarzik: there should be an official wiki, with a committe

2011-06-15 04:01:35 <jgarzik> the forums have changed hostnames before, and it was not a big deal

2011-06-15 04:01:42 <jgarzik> genewitch: hehe

2011-06-15 04:02:08 <genewitch> well i mean that's how most FOSS projects are run, commitee, LINUX "penguin pee" TORVALDS excepted, of course.

2011-06-15 04:02:16 <theymos> Centralization is an effective management technique as long as there are many centralized organizations to compete.

2011-06-15 04:03:01 <cacheson> theymos: right, so splitting the forums off from bitcoin.org furthers that

2011-06-15 04:03:27 <cacheson> theymos: makes the forums and the development stuff into two visibly separate organizations

2011-06-15 04:03:46 <jgarzik> indeed

2011-06-15 04:03:58 <cacheson> that way you can let people talk about what they want to on the forums without the developers getting (as much) flak about it

2011-06-15 04:04:24 <jgarzik> being under "bitcoin.org" the domain that satoshi created, and that search engines and press link to, obviously heavily favors "bitcoin.org" over any other domain

2011-06-15 04:04:44 <genewitch> jgarzik: bitcoin.blogspot.com is a close second though

2011-06-15 04:04:45 <luke-jr> cacheson: "development staff" is too vague too

2011-06-15 04:05:00 <luke-jr> bitcoin.org shouldn't be biased to any one project

2011-06-15 04:05:25 <luke-jr> besides a "default" by popularity

2011-06-15 04:05:28 <cacheson> luke-jr: I don't see anything terribly wrong with it being associated with the mainline client

2011-06-15 04:05:45 <luke-jr> cacheson: because there's multiple mainline clients

2011-06-15 04:05:53 <genewitch> luke-jr: who gets to decide what goes on the main page though? group editing of a website... hey we can patent that and call it something cool

2011-06-15 04:05:56 <genewitch> like

2011-06-15 04:05:57 <cacheson> luke-jr: uh... no?

2011-06-15 04:06:00 <genewitch> wiky

2011-06-15 04:06:14 <genewitch> yeah wiky, and we can make an encyclopedia

2011-06-15 04:06:41 <luke-jr> genewitch: popular vote

2011-06-15 04:06:54 <genewitch> luke-jr: it works so well for prom king

2011-06-15 04:06:57 <cacheson> this is just like bittorrent, openoffice, etc.

2011-06-15 04:07:02 <luke-jr> cacheson: no

2011-06-15 04:07:10 <jgarzik> I'll even purchase the domain (bitcointalk.org?) for 10 years, register w/ privacy enhanced domain registrar, and transfer it to theymos or whomever wants it





In these logs "TD" is Mike Hearn, none of the others strike me as people posters here probably know under other names.



Also see the



From today's perspective where Bitcoin itself appears to be safe in most of the world and where not much too shocking goes happens on the forums this all might seem like an over-reaction.



But back then it was far from crystal clear that Bitcoin itself was legal in jurisdictions where many of us were, and there was some scarry noises from the US goverment-- every ounce of additional negative attention was an additional threat that people who already felt exposed working on Bitcoin didn't want to deal with.



The forums themselves were a lot more wild and crazy then they are today-- from the infamous incident of one well known party offering to sell nudes of their 16-year-old sister, to other things that at least sounded like outright human trafficking. Some of the crazier stuff was almost certantly fake, but it still showed up and many people weren't sure how real any of it was.



Bitcoin was this crazy new thing and just seemed pregnant with possibilities: Could it really be that underage stripper assisan slaves could be purchased anonymously for a mere few-thousand Bitcoin with the press of a button or is that just some sick fantasy? Well, for all of us decentetralized digital money was just a fantasy a few years before. It was impossible to be excited about the potential without being aware that there were also potential downsides.



As usual, Theymos was pretty prescient ... with his remarks about the importance of avoiding any site as being an official anything.



I think it all worked out okay. Bitcointalk was originally a forum under www.bitcoin.org/smf/ and then later on a subdomain at forums.bitcoin.org but it isn't anymore.Here is the 2011 announcement , but it doesn't give the backstory.It seems like people have been systematically nuking logs of Bitcoin's history off the Internet for whatever reason, so many of you who weren't personally there and involved in 2011 probably have not seen this bit of history.I'll just let the chat logs tell the story of why it was moved and how it got the name bitcointalk.(I've trimmed out some irrelevant cross-talk and bolded a few lines for interesting events)In these logs "TD" is Mike Hearn, none of the others strike me as people posters here probably know under other names.Also see the Mailing list discussion at the time. (John Smith is Wladimir)From today's perspective where Bitcoin itself appears to be safe in most of the world and where not much too shocking goes happens on the forums this all might seem like an over-reaction.But back then it was far from crystal clear that Bitcoin itself was legal in jurisdictions where many of us were, and there was some scarry noises from the US goverment-- every ounce of additional negative attention was an additional threat that people who already felt exposed working on Bitcoin didn't want to deal with.The forums themselves were a lot more wild and crazy then they are today-- from the infamous incident of one well known party offering to sell nudes of their 16-year-old sister, to other things that at least sounded like outright human trafficking. Some of the crazier stuff was almost certantly fake, but it still showed up and many people weren't sure how real any of it was.Bitcoin was this crazy new thing and just seemed pregnant with possibilities: Could it really be that underage stripper assisan slaves could be purchased anonymously for a mere few-thousand Bitcoin with the press of a button or is that just some sick fantasy? Well, for all of us decentetralized digital money was just a fantasy a few years before. It was impossible to be excited about the potential without being aware that there were also potential downsides.As usual, Theymos was pretty prescient ... with his remarks about the importance of avoiding any site as being an official anything.I think it all worked out okay.