It’s one thing to say something like, “Many in legacy media love mass shootings” within the confines of CPAC, as NRA spokesperson Dana Loesch did on Thursday. It’s another to say it directly to a CNN host.

“I’m not saying you love the tragedy, but you love the ratings,” Loesch added in her CPAC address. “Crying white mothers are ratings gold.”

After thanking Loesch for attending CNN’s town hall earlier in the week, New Day host Alisyn Camerota gave her a withering look and asked, “Why would you make a statement like that?”

Almost without hesitation, Loesch responded, “Because it’s true.” As she continued to speak, Camerota shook her head, saying, “no” again and again.

“Dana, it’s just malicious, actually, that you would say that,” the former Fox News host told her. “I don’t know anyone in the media that likes mass shootings. You’re wrong on every single level! We pray there’s never another one.” She also tried to debunk Loesch’s assertion that they are “ratings gold” by arguing that the public has “reached saturation level” and are “so sick of it” that they “turn away” from the coverage.

Instead of defending her own statements, Loesch repeatedly tried to turn around and accuse CNN of acting “maliciously” toward her and the NRA. When Camerota accused her of using “heated” and “inflammatory” rhetoric, Loesch again went with a “what about CNN?” argument before repeating that her statements about the media are simply “true.”

“We love mass shootings? It’s not true!” Camerota said again. “That’s not true. How dare you!”

They spoke for more than 10 minutes more after that without ever arriving on the same page. “I think this was a good conversation,” Loesch said at the end of the segment.