ESTHER McVey praised the UK Government's 'rape clause' legislation as offering "double support" to women, telling a Holyrood committee it could provide "an outlet which they might possibly need".

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions was being questioned by the Scottish Parliament's Social Security Committee over universal credit and the transfer of welfare powers.

Convener Clare Adamson had to suspend the committee twice due to angry outbursts from the public gallery in reaction to comments from McVey.

Alison Johnstone, Green MSP, pressed the UK minister on the two-child limit on tax credits.

The controversial Tory policy allows a woman to claim for a third child if it was conceived as a result of non-consensual sex, but they would have to prove this is the case.

The UK Government allows third-party professionals to act as referrers, to avoid women having to give details to HMRC staff, but groups such as Scottish Women's Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland have refused to do so – which Johnstone said was the right view.

Johnstone said: "Do you as a minister – you are comfortable with the idea that a woman has to prove non-consensual conception in order to access an entitlement?"

McVey replied: "What we’re doing is providing extra help where people have got more children that they couldn’t have planned and we're providing that extra support – there will be no questions asked from the DWP or from HMT, and people will be supported and shown to the various other organisations.

"And again this could give them an opportunity to talk about, maybe, something that has happened, that they never had before, so it is potentially double support... them getting the money they need and maybe an outlet which they might possibly need."

Johnstone followed up by saying it was potentially "incredibly invasive and upsetting" for women to be forced to put on record a situation they wished to remain private.

McVey said there would be "no invasive or delving questions asked", and that it would be done "in the most sensitive manner".

The Work and Pensions Secretar was heckled by members of the public during the meeting.

An audience member shouted "you can't get into work if you're dead" at McVey as she argued Universal Credit is a "supportive system" aimed at helping people into work.

The intervention followed the SNP's Ben MacPherson asking McVey to apologise for the "suffering and distress" caused by the "cynical and critical" system, which was set up to roll several benefits into one direct payment.

The meeting was suspended after an audience member shouted out about a person who took their own life following sanctions.

When the meeting reconvened, McVey said: "I am not oblivious to people who are incredibly vulnerable or who are in need, and obviously the gentleman felt he needed to have his points said about something that was very important to him and about somebody who was very vulnerable."

She said the department reaches out to vulnerable people.

The meeting was suspended for a second time after her comments on the rape clause, as a second audience member began shouting and then walked out.

Questioned several times on evidence Universal Credit has pushed people into debt and led to rising food bank use in Scotland, McVey argued in many cases the debt is historical.

She said she did not agree that people could be worse off, claiming the entire package had to be considered including minimum wage rises and increasing income tax personal allowance.

She also ruled out automatic split payments which several MSPs have called for as they fear having to request this could put domestic abuse victims at further risk.

McVey said these would be provided where required and would be "revolutionary" in giving abuse victims an opportunity to access support.

The SNP's George Adam said Universal Credit is causing "financial mayhem", raised the case of a constituent sanctioned while in hospital having suffered a heart attack and asked McVey if she believes the system is "fit for purpose".

She said: "Universal Credit is fit for purpose but with this slow rollout, this learn-as-you-go approach which we are doing, that is to make sure that should there are any issues within the system that need to be supported and altered, well we've done that, we're doing that, because it does need to work for everyone."

She asked for the name and address for the man who suffered the heart attack to find out what went wrong, adding the system is working for the "vast, vast majority".

Adam told the secretary her approach is "completely devoid from the real world".

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Full exchange over 'rape clause'

Alison Johnstone MSP: I think it's fair to say there's almost universal condemnation of the two-child limit on tax credits, within this parliament. We're speaking about how UC [Universal Credit] is progressive... I think this policy shows that that’s absolutely not the case. You'll be aware that there are assessors in Scotland who will not take part in this policy so I’d like to know if there are plans to publish statistics showing the number of people affected by the two-child limit in UC and whether there is any evidence of a lower take up of exceptions in Scotland due to the exception forms not being completed.

Esther McVey MP: So the claimants on those benefits will continue getting benefits and the child benefit itself will continue for every child – it’s the tax credit element that will change and this has been worked out on the basis that people who are claiming have the same considerations of those people who are working and paying for their bills. So it is again looking for a fairness between people who are claiming and people who are working, that they’re all considering and making the same decisions in life. But as I've said the child benefit will continue for every number of children, it will be looking at the tax credit changes there.

AJ: You’ll be aware that Scottish Women’s Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland, for example, have refused and rightly in my view to act as third-party referrers – so is your government undertaking any research at all to see whether that will impact on entitlement in Scotland?

EM: What you’re referring to there is the understanding that the Government and the extra support that the Government has put in place for people who didn’t or weren’t able to make decisions over how many children they’ve had and they have indeed got extra children so more support will be put there, and we’ve said we’ll make allowances in those instances. And you’re right we've said we will refer people so personal questions aren’t asked from the DWP staff or HMT staff and we’ll refer them and work with whether that is third party groups as you mentioned or health professions or it could be other suitable people who could help people - I do hope that some of those organisations don’t decide not to work with us because actually what we're doing is providing extra help and support to those people who do, but we’ll continue working to make sure that people who need that extra benefit will get it and maybe it will be through other organisations in an extra route, but of course we will closely monitor that situation.

AJ: Do you as a minister - you actually are comfortable with the idea that a woman has to prove non-consensual conception in order to access an entitlement?

EM: What we’re doing is providing extra help where people have got more children that they couldn’t have planned, and we're providing that extra support - there will be no questions asked, like I said, from the DWP or from HMT and people will be supported and shown to the various other organisations and again this could give them an opportunity to talk about, maybe, something that has happened that they never had before so it is potentially double support… them getting the money they need and maybe an outlet which they might possibly need.

AJ: But it’s potentially also incredibly invasive and upsetting if woman are being forced to put on the record a situation or circumstance that they wish to remain entirely private in order to access entitlement.

EM: There will be no invasive or delving questions asked, they will speak to people, they have obviously come forward with this reasoning and for this extra support, and it will be done in the most sensitive manner - that is obviously key to what is happening here - but it is in the light of providing this extra financial support that they seek.