michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

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Today, under international pressure, China says it has released the vast majority of Muslim Uighurs from detention camps. Why the family of one detainee says that China cannot be trusted. It’s Thursday, August 15th.

[phone ringtone]

paul mozur

Hello?

michael barbaro

Hey, Paul. It’s Michael.

paul mozur

Hey, Michael. How are you doing?

michael barbaro

Good. How are you?

paul mozur

Not too bad.

michael barbaro

Paul Mozur is a Times correspondent based in Shanghai. So Paul, the last time we talked, you introduced us to a man named Ferkat Jawdat. Can you remind us of his story?

paul mozur

Yeah, so Ferkat comes from Western China. He’s a Uighur, which is the Muslim ethnic group out there. And Ferkat actually moved with most of his family in the early 2000s to the United States to Virginia. But they weren’t able to bring along his mother. She was not given a passport, and so she stayed behind out in a Western area of China called Xinjiang. And in recent years, the Chinese government has cracked down and tightened security in Xinjiang very intensely.

archived recording 1 American officials say Uighurs face pervasive surveillance, checkpoints entering public places like markets and mosques, identity card checks, and facial scans.

paul mozur

This is partially because there’s been quite a bit of violence there and the sort of ethnic clashes and tensions between the Uighurs and Chinese in that area. And about 15 months ago, his mother disappeared into what the Chinese government calls a reeducation camp.

archived recording 2 Evidence is growing that up to a million Muslim Uighurs are being held by Chinese authorities in so-called reeducation camps. archived recording 3 Inside, detainees have said torture and political indoctrination is routine. Critics say the camps are part of Beijing’s attempt to eliminate Islam in China.

paul mozur

She basically was thrown into what is a large network of camps that have pulled in about a million people in the region. And so Ferkat was very depressed, and he was doing a lot to try to get his mother out. He had met with a number of U.S. politicians. He had been quite outspoken, giving media interviews, which is significant because a lot of people, even once they’re in the United States, Uighurs are afraid of Chinese reprisals against family in Xinjiang, so they often don’t give interviews. So he was sort of doing everything he could to get his mother out. And as a part of that, he talks to us. And so we did an episode of “The Daily” about him. And so we sent some letters off to the Chinese government to check up and see what the story was with his mother. We had heard every so often somebody might be released if you do that. At first, I think we sort of thought maybe nothing would happen. But then all of a sudden, a lot happened.

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And so I got on the phone with Ferkat recently to kind of talk about it.

ferkat jawdat Hello?

paul mozur

And to have him explain to us what he’s been through and what it’s been like.

ferkat jawdat How about right now? paul mozur Aha, there we go. I got you.

michael barbaro

And Paul, what happened when you called him? What did he tell you?

paul mozur

So he tells me this roller coaster of a tale about the past several months of his life.

ferkat jawdat [INAUDIBLE] like, one Friday, May 17. I remember that day. And I was in a meeting at the office, and I got a phone call.

paul mozur

Basically 10 days after the episode airs, he’s at work in Virginia. He’s in a meeting. And he gets a call.

ferkat jawdat The country code is 86, which is China. And then also, there is like three digit area code, which is my hometown of [INAUDIBLE].

paul mozur

And then he looks closer, and he said, oh my god, it’s actually an area code from my home in Xinjiang.

ferkat jawdat So I got, like, really nervous, and then I just left the meeting room. And then I picked up the call. And then the other side is my mom. paul mozur Wow.

paul mozur

It’s his mother. She’s actually been released.

ferkat jawdat I got really excited and nervous at the same time. So I started crying, and then I just keep asking her, like, Mom, is that you? Is that really you? Like, Mom, are you still alive?

paul mozur

It’s this kind of tremendous moment where somebody who, all intents and purposes, he spoke of as almost having been dead in a way because he just had no understanding of what could have happened to her, and she had health problems, to all of sudden having her right in his ear. It’s incredibly emotional. She, too, is overjoyed, and he can hear the emotion in her voice.

paul mozur She just said, like, Ferkat, is that you? Is that you? Like, [INAUDIBLE] son. I said, yes, Mom, it’s me. Like, is that really you? Mom, how are you? How are you doing? And then she said

paul mozur

But pretty quickly, he told me he realized

ferkat jawdat There was something that was off.

paul mozur

Something was a little bit off.

ferkat jawdat Because she said, son, I have been well taken care of. I went to a really good school. Everything is like brand new. And I learned Mandarin Chinese, our national language, our country mother language. And I learned some Chinese laws as well. Like, I was well taken care of. But those things I heard on the media by the Chinese government many, many times. But I wasn’t expecting that’s going to come from my mother’s own mouth.

paul mozur

And what it is, is that she was basically repeating, in an almost dogmatic way, the propaganda lines of the Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese government.

ferkat jawdat So then she said, my smart son, my stubborn son who doesn’t stop until he reaches his goals, I heard what you did. Our country like they’re really good, they’re really powerful, really strong. So you cannot do anything against our country.

paul mozur

He can hear this woman who sounds like his mother, but then he’s thinking, my mother would never say something like this.

ferkat jawdat So I kind of got that feeling that is that really my mom or someone that just mimicking my mom’s voice? But once I added my sisters on the line because it’s on my cell phone, like a direct phone line, and then as soon as one of them starts speaking, just by the voice, the first couple of words, my mom was able to pick up who she is. So that moment, I was like O.K. So that’s really my mom. She was able to recognize my sister’s voice. So I thought, O.K., so that’s my mom. We hang up after half an hour. And I was going to work, so all meetings, talking to my manager, who’s like our C.E.O. at the company. I told them the great news that I finally got my mom released from the camp. So they all hugged me. paul mozur Wow. ferkat jawdat It was one of the happiest moments in my life, like one of those times when my daughter was born I was at the hospital. And then this time was like unexpected happiness.

paul mozur

And a few days go by and he told me, he was very, very happy and glad and trying to figure out kind of what the next step is. But then he finds out that his mother has actually been sent back to a camp.

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ferkat jawdat So I felt like somebody brought me really high to the sky and then just pushed me.

paul mozur

And he doesn’t find it out from her. He finds it out from his grandmother, who his mother had actually gone to stay with. So he finds out that she was just released very briefly to talk to him and tell him and act as if she had been released.

ferkat jawdat I kind of just became a mad dog at the time. I felt like I was played by the Chinese government with the help of my mom.

paul mozur

This was all just an elaborate ploy to sort of try to basically affect the coverage, our coverage, and other media coverage, and show that they are releasing people. And so ultimately, she’s a pawn in a game of misinformation that they’re playing from 6,000 miles away.

ferkat jawdat So I thought, O.K., so you start playing your game. If you stepped up your game on the next level, O.K., so it’s time for me to be more active or be more louder.

michael barbaro

So that phone call between Ferkat and his mother appeared to have been this brief moment when the Chinese government is aware that there is a lot of international attention on this case. And so they may have let her out. But it was very brief, essentially just to make that call, a call that sounded like it was guided by the Chinese government.

paul mozur

Exactly. And later, he finds out that there were actually six police officers in the room with her

michael barbaro

Wow.

paul mozur

As she’s talking to him. So the idea that she could say anything at all reflective of what she actually felt is just nonexistent. So then a few weeks go by, and again, all of a sudden, his mother starts contacting him over a messaging app popular in China called WeChat.

ferkat jawdat The police brought her cell phone, told her to speak to us regularly, so it kind of became I guess normal that I was talking to her almost every day because I don’t want to lose her again.

paul mozur

And it turns out she has been released, but she’s under a sort of house arrest.

ferkat jawdat There’s two cameras right outside my grandmother’s house on the front, and they are monitoring what is going and going off from the house. Also, they gave her a cell phone themselves, so they know my mom’s exact location. And then they know who she is speaking to. So basically, she was released from the camp to the open air prison that everyone says she talks to on the phone, is monitored, and then tracked by the Chinese government. And then every location she goes to, like every place that she goes to, she had to tell some local officials first that she was going to some place and how long she was going to stay.

paul mozur

And perhaps just as important, her medical situation seems to have gotten a lot worse. So she had heart problems, high blood pressure, which had all kinds of different complications that affected her health. And so he, at some point, gets on a video call with her.

ferkat jawdat She was laying down on the bed. She looked like really sick. She wasn’t able to call the cell phone herself, so my aunt was holding a cell phone on my mother’s face. And then my mom was talking really softly, like really weak. It felt like she was on her death bed. And then she was crying, and I was also crying, too. So she said that, like, son, I have been fighting to get united with you guys in the U.S. But it’s been more than 13 years right now. I don’t know if I can hold another 13 days or 13 weeks. But if I am gone, take care of your sisters, father, brother and your family. You are the oldest, and then you have to become, like, father for them, for everyone.

paul mozur

And so he’s trying to understand, is she getting medical attention? How much medical attention? And what he finds out is they’re taking her maybe once a month or something to a doctor, but she’s only being prescribed sleep pills, nothing for her blood pressure or for her heart. But eventually, she goes to a better doctor. And he says she needs a surgery, a heart bypass surgery. And this is not only expensive, but also something that she’s quite worried about, and she wants her family near her for when she goes through this.

ferkat jawdat She’s scared, and then she’s worried that there might be something that happens to her, and then there is no one to stand by her side. paul mozur And there’s nobody to stand by her side because the authorities basically have her under house arrest and do not allow her to see anybody. Is that correct? ferkat jawdat That’s one thing, and another one thing is because of my activism in my mother’s situation, even my aunt, my mother’s younger sister, she’s kind of keeping distance from my mom. And then my aunt go like, they are all kind of keeping some distance from my mom. paul mozur Because they believe that if they’re too close to her, it could impact them because of the way you’ve been speaking out. Is that right? ferkat jawdat Yes.

michael barbaro

So Paul, what happens next?

paul mozur

Yeah, so at some point, he gets a message on WeChat. And it’s from somebody he doesn’t know. And so he ignores it.

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ferkat jawdat So second day, it said, “Hello, Ferkat,” in Mandarin Chinese.

paul mozur

And then he gets the message again from the same person.

ferkat jawdat And then he said that he is from [INAUDIBLE], our capital city. He is really powerful guy, and that he’s the main actor who helped my family to get my mom freed. And then also, he helped my mom to have a cell phone and then also that she was able to go to the doctor and get treatment and medicines. paul mozur Because of him. ferkat jawdat Because of him. paul mozur And does he say who he works for or what his position is in any formal capacity? So I asked him, like, O.K., so since you know lots of things about me, who are you? What do you work for? So give me some information. I know in the beginning, he said that he wants to become my close friend, really close personal friend that we can help each other out. And then he wanted to get my trust. And then he wanted me to believe him that he’s really a good person.

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paul mozur

The guy keeps sort of rattling of information about Ferkat and his family. He knows some of the meetings that Ferkat went to in Washington. He knows that he’s met certain politicians. He knows that he was just at a conference. It’s kind of an eerie level of surveillance and an eerie level of information that this guy has. And Ferkat knows nothing about this guy.

ferkat jawdat And then I asked him, like, O.K., so seeing as you want me to believe you, at least give me some information about where do you work, or who are you, I guess what’s your level.

paul mozur

And the guy said, just trust me. I’m very powerful, and I can help you if I want to. Ferkat knows that this guy is not his friend. But he doesn’t know what he wants. He doesn’t know what his end game is. And he’s trying to kind of suss it out. As they talk, the ask becomes well, Ferkat, if you be quiet, if you stop talking, then I think I can help your mother.

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ferkat jawdat He asked me to stay out of Twitter, Facebook, social media. And then he told me that if I do as he said, stay quiet, he is going to try to find a way to get my mom a passport. But that all depends on you, how do you cooperate with us, how do you help me out as I’m trying to help your family. paul mozur And the off is basically your mother in exchange for your silence. ferkat jawdat Yes.

paul mozur

And so it’s as if the Chinese state has kidnapped his mother and the ransom that they’re asking for is Ferkat’s silence. And Ferkat told me that this really tore him up. I mean, he was incredibly emotional about it because the core value that he believes in is speaking out, is saying what he thinks. And this is something his mother taught him to do. And now to save his mother, he’s being asked to violate the very lesson that his mother taught him.

ferkat jawdat After I was able to talk to my mom, then after that, she was released, and then seeing her heart condition is getting worse day by day and then the way that she was scared, it’s really hard to lose her a second time. So that’s the thing that kept me like really quiet.

paul mozur

So Ferkat actually does follow what the security officer says at first. He starts quieting down on social media. He doesn’t say as much.

ferkat jawdat On the other hand, I know that they are trying to play a time game with me. Like, he’s saying that he can get my mom a passport. But he didn’t give me any specific time frame.

paul mozur

He kind of continues to run into this problem where he isn’t getting enough of a response. The promises are vague, and they don’t seem to come true quickly enough.

ferkat jawdat So finally, I broke off the day that when I was talking to my mom, as I told you earlier that she was almost felt like she was on her death bed. paul mozur Yeah. ferkat jawdat So after I hang up that phone and then I just like, I got really scared.

paul mozur

And so at some point, he gets frustrated, and he basically gives an ultimatum to the security officer.

ferkat jawdat I told him, like, hey, look, as you said that you are a really powerful person, that you can do everything you want, how about if you just get my mom a passport within two weeks because I don’t know if she still has another two weeks or two months. She had to get her Chinese passport so she can come to the U.S. and get the right treatment. Or get me a visa in two weeks. If not, I’ll just start speaking again. And then if I speak again this time, I’ll be more active than before.

paul mozur

And at this point, the attitude of the security person turns.

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ferkat jawdat He replied back to the second day, saying that the China that’s the superpower in the world, that they aren’t going to get scared from a guy like me. He told me that you are an adult. Whatever you do, that comes with a price. That comes with the consequences that you have to get ready.

paul mozur

He sort of tells Ferkat that Ferkat is just insignificant compared to the power of the Chinese state, and how dare Ferkat believe that he can get anything out of them? How dare he talk to the state that way? And then kind of after that point, the line goes silent.

ferkat jawdat That’s the game they play. Like, they just play the time. The more time they have is more powerful they get, and then the more chance they will win.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. help own I’m noticing that Ferkat uses the word game a lot in describing how this played out to you. What do you make of that?

paul mozur

Well, I think there’s a lot that is game-like in this because you have this police officer who gets in touch with him and has all the power. But he wants to let on as if he doesn’t have all the power then, that Ferkat has some power and that if Ferkat is willing to give up a little bit of his power, then there’s a trade that could happen, right? And meanwhile, Ferkat kind of knows this guy’s full of it, but isn’t quite sure, and there’s this kind of back and forth, trying to understand could he actually do this? Is this real? And in the end, of course, there wasn’t a lot of intention there. And behind that dressed up, nice, pleasing official attempting to placate Ferkat is this truly stern person who just lectures him about his people being crushed, and the Uighurs being crushed, and him having just zero influence in the shadow of a sort of superpower like China.

michael barbaro

So at this point, all Ferkat wants is his mother to be released. And all the Chinese government seems to want is for him to be quiet. And in the middle is his mother. And it feels like both sides view her release differently, but they’re willing to use it as leverage in this situation.

paul mozur

Right. What’s interesting is that you would think in a conventional sense both sides have something the other side wants. Why can’t they make a trade? Why can’t this actually work out? But I think his mother, unfortunately, to the Chinese government is extremely expendable. Generally speaking, the way we see the Chinese government manage these situations is oftentimes everything is about cosmetics. It’s about public relations. So they don’t actually probably have any real strong intentions of truly releasing his mother. They just want to see what they can get out of him in the meantime.

michael barbaro

So Paul, what happens next?

paul mozur

So there’s this moment where the story of Ferkat and his mother actually kind of dovetails with the story of Xinjiang itself and the Chinese approach to Xinjiang. Because out of nowhere, a few weeks ago

archived recording 1 [SPEAKING CHINESE]

paul mozur

China’s government in Beijing holds a press conference and announces that 90 percent of workers have been released from the camps.

archived recording 2 [SPEAKING CHINESE]

paul mozur

And it’s a little vaguely worded, so it could be that 90 percent have gotten jobs. 90 percent who have been released have gotten jobs. But it’s kind of unclear.

archived recording 3 [SPEAKING CHINESE]

paul mozur

It should be really momentous news, but you just know it’s not because it’s too unbelievable. But at the same time, we have to kind of report what the government is saying while we’re fact checking it. What we ultimately figure out is that of course, it’s not true. They did not release 90 percent of Uighurs, nor did the 90 percent of Uighurs who’ve been released have jobs. But it is a kind of propaganda trick, and it is a part of the way the Chinese government is trying to handle the foreign reception to this. Because around the world, places like Europe and the United States have been very ferocious in their criticism of China’s practices there. So this is a way of them trying to manage the situation.

michael barbaro

Paul, how did this announcement from the Chinese government affect Ferkat and his mother?

paul mozur

Well, in some ways, the story of the announcement is the story of Ferkat and his mother because the security official comes to Ferkat and promises something unbelievable. And it turns out that it’s not possible. And similarly, we see the Chinese government coming out and promising something that seems unbelievable. And sure enough, it is. And so the question becomes, why do this? Why even bother, right? Why play this game? And I think at a fundamental level, what it shows is Beijing believes very deeply in propaganda. Because domestically, propaganda has worked incredibly well. Most Chinese don’t really understand what’s going on there. But they support the government. And so I think for China, this belief that if they can kind of convince the Chinese people that this is O.K., well, then, why won’t that work in the wider world?

michael barbaro

And is there evidence that this propaganda is working?

paul mozur

There is. So a couple of weeks ago, we had a number of major Muslim countries come out and say that they were O.K. with what was going on in Xinjiang and with the Chinese government’s behavior there. And a part of their willingness to support this comes from a deep economic tie to China and a desire to kind of keep on the good side of such a powerful country. But a part of it is the propaganda. And even if the leaders know that there’s real problems there, at the same time, it gives them an excuse. It gives them a plausible deniability to say, well, we looked into it and the Chinese government says they’re working on it. They’re releasing people. And so we think it’s O.K.

michael barbaro

Paul, since this announcement from the Chinese government, which I know our reporting has essentially debunked, what is the state of these camps and the Uighurs inside them?

paul mozur

So from what our reporting shows, most are still in the camps. The camps are still very much a fixture of the way in which the Chinese government controls Xinjiang. And they seem like they’re there to stay. They’re built to last. They are large. They’ve built some different factories and different labor parks near camps. And they’re kind of forcing people to work there while they’re going to these camps. In no sense does it seem like this is the end of this program. It seems, in fact, like it’s just the beginning, and they remain a key part of China’s policy in the region.

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And even once you’re out of the camps, the camps remain very much this threat, this sword hanging over everybody. And it can be used at any time, and that’s power. They have this psychological toll. They loom over the people of Xinjiang.

michael barbaro

So in that sense, this game that China is playing with Ferkat and with his mother is still not over.

paul mozur

No, it’s not. And in fact, I think it’s only gotten more intense because there is a clock ticking here. And his mother is in seriously bad health, and she could die very soon. And so he is taking bigger and bigger risks and considering more and more dramatic gestures to try and change the outcome of the game. But I think deep down, he knows that most likely, it’s not a game he can win.

michael barbaro

Paul, thank you very much.

paul mozur

Thanks.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

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michael barbaro

Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording 1 Steve, it doesn’t always mean a recession is coming. But you don’t get a recession without an inverted yield curve, and therein lies the worry.

michael barbaro

U.S. stock prices plunged on Wednesday after a reliable predictor of recessions, known as an inverted yield curve, briefly appeared in the bond market, spooking investors.

archived recording 2 It’s where short-term bonds yield more than long-term bonds. Why is that bad and weird? Well, it’s usually the other way around. Because investors want to they want higher interest rates to lend for a longer period of time. It makes sense.

michael barbaro

Investors seized on the fact that, for the first time in more than a decade, the government is paying out higher rates to attract buyers of short term bonds than for long term bonds.

archived recording 3 I’m sorry to say it’s a pretty tried and true recession warning. Take a look here.

michael barbaro