Transcript: Genders, Rights and Freedom of Speech | Oct 26, 2016

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and lilac tie.A caption on screen reads "Genders, rights and freedom of speech. @spaikin, @theagenda."Steve says WHAT'S IN A NAME?POTENTIALLY A GREAT DEAL.UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO PSYCHOLOGYPROFESSOR JORDAN PETERSON HAS AFIGHT ON HIS HANDS AFTEROBJECTING TO PROPOSEDLEGISLATION THAT HE SAYS WOULDVIOLATE HIS FREEDOM OF SPEECH BYFORCING HIM TO ADDRESSTRANSGENDERED PEOPLE USING THEPRONOUNS OF THEIR CHOOSING.JOINING US NOW TO BETTERUNDERSTAND THE ISSUE, AND DEBATEWHAT'S AT STAKE:IN VANCOUVER, B.C.:THERYN MEYER, TRANSGENDER PUNDITAND YouTuber...Theryn is in her twenties, with long wavy brown hair and bangs. She's wearing a sleeveless black shirt.Steve continues IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL:KYLE KIRKUP, PROFESSOR OF LAW,UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA.Kyle is in his late thirties, with short brown hair and a tousled beard. He's wearing a brown suit, white shirt, and gray tie.Steve continues AND HERE IN STUDIO:JORDAN PETERSON, PROFESSOR OFPSYCHOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OFTORONTO...Jordan is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short curly gray hair. He's wearing a tan blazer over a yellow shirt.Steve continues NICHOLAS MATTE, LECTURER,TRANSGENDER STUDIES AT U OF T...Nicholas is in his late thirties, bald, with a trimmed ginger beard. He's wearing glasses, a black suit, black checkered shirt and purple tie.Steve continues AND, MARY ROGAN, WHOSE ARTICLEENTITLED "GROWING UP TRANS" ISFEATURED IN THE OCTOBER ISSUE OFTHE WALRUS.Mary is in her forties, with short gray hair. She's wearing a dark blue shirt.Steve continues GOOD TO HAVE YOU THREE HERE ANDOUR TWO FRIENDS IN POINTSBEYOND.WE APPRECIATE EVERYBODY BEING ONTHE PROGRAM FOR WHAT IS I THINKONE OF THE HOTTEST TOPICS IN THECOUNTRY TODAY, PROFESSORPETERSON, AND IT'S ALL BECAUSEOF YOU.I THINK BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHERWITH OUR CONVERSATION HERE, IWANT TO GIVE PEOPLE A SENSE OFHOW HOT THIS HAS GOT, STARTINGON THE DOWNTOWN CAMPUS OF THEUNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?ROLL IT.A clip plays on screen in which Jordan Peterson stands outside a university with a microphone in his hand, as a few people film him and a group of students yells and makes noises.[MIXED VOICES]Jordan says WELL, AS YOU CAN SEE, THEOPPONENTS OF FREE SPEECH ARECAPABLE OF MAKING A LOT OFINARTICULATE NOISE.Later, he says FREE SPEECHIS THE MECHANISM BY WHICH WEKEEP OUR SOCIETY FUNCTIONING.Now a student speaks into the microphone and says BY DOING THAT, YOU'RE IMPOSING...Suddenly several people start yelling and hurry towards a small crowd in which people are shoving each other around.The student says WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA.NO, NOT COOL.NOT COOL.Later, Jordan holds his forehead as he looks at a camera filming him.A voice says I'M GOING TO POST THIS ONLINETHAT YOU WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO BEMORE ACCOMMODATING OF TRANSPEOPLE AT YOUR EVENTS IN THEFUTURE.As Jordan starts to speak, a student interrupts and yellsI'M A PERSON OF COLOUR AND IFEEL ACCOMMODATED.Another voice says THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLERECORDED INCIDENTS OF TRANSPEOPLE KILLING THEMSELVESBECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BEINGINTEGRATED INTO SOCIETY.Now another student says IF IT WASN'T FOR THIS LAW AND I ASK YOU TO REFER TO ME WITHTHE CORRECT PRONOUNS.Another student says WHY DO YOU HAVE AUTHORITY TODETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT ANINDIVIDUAL IS WORTHY OF YOUUSING THEIR PRONOUNS.IF I ASKED YOU IF YOU WOULDPLEASE USE THE PRONOUNS...Jordan says IT DEPENDS ON WHAT...Another student interrupts.The asker says THOSE ARE MY PRONOUNS!The clip ends.The caption changes to "Why?"Steve says WITH INDULGENCE OFEVERYBODY ELSE ON THE PROGRAM,I'M GOING TO START WITHPROFESSOR PETERSON OFF THE TOPHERE FOR A WHILE BECAUSE, AS ISUGGESTED, YOU THOUGHT LONG ANDHARD ABOUT THIS.YOU POSTED A FEW THINGS UP TOYouTube BECAUSE YOU HAD BEENTHINKING LONG AND HARD ABOUT IT.ONE AND A HALF MILLION HITSLATER, JORDAN, ONE AND A HALFMILLION HITS LATER, THIS HASBECOME A HUGE ISSUE.SO LET'S START THERE.WHY DID YOU POST THOSE VIEWS TOYouTube IN THE FIRST PLACE?The caption changes to "Jordan Peterson. University of Toronto."Jordan says WELL,THERE'S PROXIMATE AND DISTALREASONS.THE PROXIMATE REASONS WASBECAUSE I RECEIVED SOMECORRESPONDENCE FROM CLIENTS OFMINE WHO HAD BEEN, I WOULD SAY,PERSECUTED IN A VARIETY OF WAYSBY PEOPLE WHO ARE POLITICALLYCORRECT AND THEY SENT ME SOMEDOCUMENTATION ABOUT BILL C-16AND THE ASSOCIATED POLICYSTATEMENTS ON THE ONTARIO HUMANRIGHTS COMMISSION, WHICH I READ,AND WAS NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT,AND ALSO BECAUSE THE UNIVERSITYOF TORONTO DECIDED TO MAKEANTI-RACISM AND ANTIBIASTRAINING, SO-CALLED ANTI-RACISMAND ANTIBIAS TRAINING MANDATORY,WHICH I REGARDED AS ANINAPPROPRIATE INCURSION BY THEUNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATION.Steve says HAVE YOU TAKEN THATTRAINING YET?Jordan says NO, AND IDON'T HAVE TO YET.IT'S THE H.R. PERSONNEL THATHAVE TO TAKE IT.Steve says IF THEY DECIDE YOUHAVE TO, WILL YOU TAKE IT?Jordan says NO WAY.NOT A CHANCE.Steve says YOU REFERRED TOPERSECUTION THAT FRIENDS ORCLIENTS HAD EXPERIENCED.Jordan says WELL,YEAH.THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES NOWWHERE THE WORKPLACE HAS BECOME,I WOULD SAY, EXCESSIVELYPOLITICIZED, SO PEOPLE WHO HAVEVIEWPOINTS, AND THIS ALSOINCLUDES, I WOULD SAY, FAIRLYRADICAL LEFTIST VIEWPOINTS,PEOPLE DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ATALL IN BEING ABLE TO USE THELANGUAGE OF THEIR CHOICE OR TOHAVE EVEN OPINIONS ABOUT AVARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS, ANDSO... I'VE HAD THREE CLIENTS WHOI WOULD SAY HAVE BEEN, WE'LLSAY, HARASSED, I SUPPOSE IS THERIGHT WAY OF PUTTING IT...Steve says ON SOCIAL MEDIA OROTHERWISE?Jordan says NO, ATWORK, AT WORK, BY PEOPLE WHODON'T LIKE THEIR POLITICALOPINIONS, ESSENTIALLY.Steve says AND THE OPINIONSWERE WHAT?Jordan says I CAN'TTELL YOU TOO MUCH ABOUT IT,ACTUALLY, BECAUSE OF ISSUES...FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES OFCONFIDENTIALITY.Steve says ESSENTIALLY I GUESSWHAT I'M ASKING IS TO LAY THECASE OUT.WHAT IS IT YOU FIND OFFENSIVEABOUT THIS LEGISLATION?The caption changes to "Jordan Peterson, @jordanbpeterson."Jordan says FUNDAMENTALLY, THERE ARE TWOTHINGS THAT REALLY BOTHERED ME,ALTHOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN OTHERTHINGS I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT SINCE.ONE IS I WAS BEING ASKED, ASEVERYONE IS, TO USE A CERTAINSET OF WORDS THAT I THINK ARECONSTRUCTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVEA POLITICAL IDEOLOGY THAT IDON'T BELIEVE IN AND I ALSOREGARD AS DANGEROUS.Steve says WHAT ARE THOSEWORDS?Jordan says THOSE ARETHE MADE-UP WORDS THAT PEOPLENOW DESCRIBE AS GENDER NEUTRAL,AND SO TO ME, THEY'RE AN ATTEMPTTO CONTROL LANGUAGE AND IN ADIRECTION THAT ISN'T HAPPENINGORGANICALLY, IT'S NO THEHAPPENING NATURALLY, PEOPLEAREN'T PICKING UP THESE WORDS INTHE TYPICAL WAY NEW WORDS AREPICKED UP, BUT BY FORCE AND BYFIAT.I WOULD SAY BY FORCE BECAUSETHERE'S LEGISLATIVE POWER BEHINDTHEM AND I DON'T LIKE THEMADE-UP WORDS, THEY AND THEY'RE.Steve says THEY IS ONE OF THEM,TO SPEAK TO AN INDIVIDUAL ASTHEY.Jordan says WE CAN'TDISPENSE BETWEEN THE DISTINCTIONBETWEEN SINGULAR AND PLURAL.I KNOW THE ADVOCATES OF THATPARTICULAR APPROACH SAY THEY HASBEEN USED FOREVER AS A SINGULARAND THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT CORRECT.IT'S USED AS A SINGULAR IN VERYEXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, LIKEIF YOUR CHILD WISHES TO BRING ABOOK TO SCHOOL, THEY'RE WELCOMETO DO SO.Steve says THAT'S JUSTGRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT.The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram."Jordan says THERE'SSOME DEBATE ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE"THEY" IS USED LIKE THATSOMETIMES.BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN USED AS ASINGULAR REPLACEMENT FOR HE ORSHE.SO IT'S NOT A TENABLE SOLUTIONAND THAT'S THE BEST OF THESOLUTIONS.Steve says WE UNDERSTAND YOURVIEWS AND WHERE YOU'RE COMINGFROM.YOU'VE DECIDED TO LAY THESEVIEWS OUT IN SOME YouTubeDISCOURSES.Jordan says YES.Steve says YOU PUT THEM UP.THE RESPONSE HAS BEENOVERWHELMING.Jordan says YES.Steve says DID YOU ANTICIPATEYOU WOULD GET THIS KIND OFFEEDBACK?Jordan says NO, THEREWAS NO WAY OF ANTICIPATING THIS.YOU MENTIONED IN THE INTRO THATTHIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF WHATI'VE DONE.I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF THEFACT... I THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND ITHINK THE RIGHT METAPHOR ISTHERE'S A LARGE FOREST AND IT'SBEEN A HOT, DRY SUMMER OR MAYBEA DROUGHT AND THERE'S PLENTY OFDEADWOOD GATHERED AND I LIT ASPARK.YOU CAN'T BLAME THE FOREST FIREON THE SPARK.IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE FORSOMEONE TO PUT UP A YouTubeVIDEO AND CAUSE THIS KIND OFBROUHAHA WITHOUT THE GROUNDWORKBEING LAID.Steve says THERE IS OUT THEREAN APPETITE AGAINST POLITICALCORRECTNESS WHICH IS WHAT YOUHAVE DESCRIBED THIS AS.IN FACT, YOUR YouTube VIDEO ISCALLED PROFESSOR AGAINSTPOLITICAL CORRECTNESS.LET'S ALL MAKE SURE WE'RESPEAKING THE SAME LANGUAGE HERE.YOU WOULD DEFINE THAT HOW,POLITICAL CORRECTNESS?Jordan says I THINKIT'S A PARTICULAR KIND OF I HADLOGICAL GAME AND... IDEOLOGICALGAME.IT'S TO MAKE THE PERSON FEELSUPERIOR AND AXE SWINGING AT THEFOUNDATION OF SOCIETY, SO THEGAME IS IDENTIFY A DOMAIN OFHUMAN ENDEAVOUR.NOTE THAT THERE'S A DISTRIBUTIONOF SUCCESS.SOME PEOPLE ARE DOINGCOMPARATIVELY BETTER AND SOMEPEOPLE ARE DOING COMPARATIVELYWORSE.DEFINE THOSE DOING WORSE ASVICTIMS.DEFINE THOSE DOING BETTER ASPERPETRATORS.IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS.HAVE YOURSELF A SET OF ENEMIESHANDY TO VENT YOUR RESENTMENTON.FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT EVEN THOUGHIT DIDN'T REALLY REQUIRE ANYWORK ON YOUR PART.AND THEN ENDLESSLY REPEAT.THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SEEINGHAPPENING ON CAMPUSES INPARTICULAR FOR THE LAST 30YEARS?IN YOUR YouTube YOU DESCRIBETHOSE WHO OPPOSE YOU ASRESENTFUL AND UNINFORMED.WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'SACCURATE?Jordan says I WORKEDFOR THE NDP UNTIL THE TIME I WAS14 I WORKED WITH RACHEL NOTLEY'SMOTHER AND FATHER AND KNEW THEMVERY WELL.I ACTUALLY FOUND THEM ASADMIRABLE PEOPLE AS WELL AS THEOTHER PEOPLE ON THE SOCIALISTEND OF THE DISTRIBUTION WHO AREGENERALLY WORKING FOR THE RIGHTSOF WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, COMINGOUT OF THE SASKATCHEWANTRADITION THAT ESTABLISHEDHEALTH CARE AND PENSION AND ALLOF THAT.BUT I NOTED AT THE SAME TIMETHAT THE PARTY FUNCTIONARIES,LET'S SAY, WEREN'T THAT SORT OFPERSON AT ALL.THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE WORKINGCLASS.THEY WOULDN'T STAND UP FOR THEM.I COULDN'T PUT MY FINGER ON ITUNTIL I READ GEORGE ORWELL WHICHWAS WRITTEN FOR THE LEFT BOOKCLUB IN THE U.K. AND HE WASTALKING ABOUT THE FAILURES OFSOCIALISM IN THE UNITED KINGDOMAND THEN DISCUSSED INTELLECTUALSOCIALISTS.Steve says RESENTFUL ANDUNINFORMED?Jordan says THERESENTFULNESS IS THE WILLINGNESSTO PULL DOWN ANY STRUCTURETHAT'S HIERARCHICAL BECAUSE OFRESENTMENT OF NOT BEING ON THETOP.AND UNINFORMED IS THE CONSISTENTATTEMPT TO FORCE EVERY POLITICALISSUE INTO A SINGLE... INTO THEDOMAIN ENCOMPASSED AND VIEWEDTHROUGH THIS SINGLE LENS.Steve says JORDAN, LET'S DO ONEMORE QUESTION AND THEN GETEVERYBODY ELSE INTO THECONVERSATION.YOU KNOW OF COURSE SINCE THISSTORY BROKE YOU'VE BEEN CALLED ALOT OF THINGS.Jordan says YEAH.Steve says ONE OF WHICH IS ATRANSPHOBE.SOME PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OFUSING THE FREE SPEECH ISSUE TOMASK WHAT'S REALLY GOING ONHERE, WHICH IS AN ATTEMPT TODEPRIVE OTHER PEOPLE OF WHATTHEY BELIEVE ARE THEIRLEGITIMATE RIGHTS.WE'LL GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITYTO SPEAK TO WHETHER OR NOT YOUARE A TRANSPHOBE.Jordan says I CAN TELLYOU I'VE RECEIVED MORE LETTERSFROM TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLESUPPORTING ME THAN OPPOSING ME,AND I NEVER SAID ANYTHING REALLYABOUT TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE ABOUTTHEIR EXISTENCE, ALTHOUGH THATWAS THE FIRST THING I WASACCUSED OF DOING.I DIDN'T SAY THAT TRANSSEXUALPEOPLE DIDN'T EXIST.I SAID THAT GENDER IDENTITY,GENDER EXPRESSION AND BIOLOGICALSEX DON'T VARY INDEPENDENTLY,WHICH THEY DON'T.SO THIS ISSUE IS IN SOME SENSEONLY PERIPHERALLY ABOUTTRANSSEXUAL ISSUES.IT'S MORE CENTRALLY ABOUT GENDERISSUES AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT,AND I THINK IT'S THE BIGGESTISSUE, IS THAT IT'S A FREESPEECH ISSUE.Steve says OKAY.LET US CONTINUE TO EXPLORE ALLOF THOSE ISSUES THAT YOU HAVEJUST RAISED.WHY DON'T WE DO THIS?LET'S TAKE A MOMENT.WE'RE GOING TO EXPLAIN A FEWBASIC THINGS HERE.THE ISSUE OF SO-CALLEDNON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNS GO WITHUNTRADITIONAL GENDER IDENTITIES.NEW YORK CITY, FOR EXAMPLE,RECOGNIZES 29 GENDEREXPRESSIONS.FOR EXAMPLE, PAN GENDER, QUEERGENDER, GENDER FLUID, CROSSDRESSER, BIGENDERED, GENDERBLENDER, AND THE LIST GOES ON.NICHOLAS, YOU TEACHTRANS STUDIES.IF YOU WOULD, GIVE US A BRIEFPRIMER ON SO MANY GENDERIDENTITIES THAT IN YOUR VIEWREQUIRE NON-TRADITIONALPRONOUNS.The caption changes to "Nicholas Matte. University of Toronto."Then, it changes again to "What's in a pronoun."Nicholas says BASICALLYIT'S NOT CORRECT THAT THERE ISSUCH A THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX.I'M AN HISTORIAN OF MEDICINE.I CAN UNPACK THAT FOR YOU ATGREAT LENGTH, IF YOU WANT, BUTIN THE INTERESTS OF TIME, IWON'T.THAT'S A POPULAR MISCONCEPTION.IN MY CLASSES WE'RE LOOKING ATACTUAL RESEARCH AND IDENTIFYINGWAYS THAT CURRENT SOCIAL ISSUESRELATED TO TRANS PEOPLE ORTHINGS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITHTRANS, SUCH AS FREE SPEECHARGUMENTS AND CLAIMS, HOW THATCONNECTS TO THE WAY THAT PEOPLEARE THINKING, THE WAY THEIRRESEARCH HAS BEEN FRAMED...Steve says GIVE US SOME OF THEOTHER PRONOUNS THAT ONE WOULDHEAR TYPICALLY.Nicholas says I DON'TFOCUS ON PRONOUNS BECAUSE IT'SPART OF A FIS CULTURE.I'LL EXPLAIN.WE DON'T START FROM A FISNORMATIVE PERSPECTIVE BECAUSETHAT DOESN'T GO VERY FAR.Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?Nicholas says I'LL STARTTHERE.CIS IS THE POPULAR ASSUMPTIONTHAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE ANDDEFINITELY STRUCTURES CONVEYTHAT THERE IS SUCH A THING ASMALE AND FEMALE, THAT THEYCONNECT TO BEING A GIRL OR BOYOR A MAN OR A WOMAN AND THENSOMETIMES THAT WILL ALSORECOGNIZE TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE, ASYOU MENTIONED, BECAUSE THAT'S...SOMETIMES ALSO REFERRED TO AS AGENDER BINARY, SO THING THATFITS WITHIN A GENDER BINARY CANWORK WITHIN CIS NORMATIVITY.CIS NORMATIVITY IS EVERYONEASSUMES THERE IS BOTH MALE ANDFEMALE SO IT'S NOT LOOKED AT ASTO WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE CASE...Steve says YOUR VIEW WOULD BEIT'S MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THANTHAT.Nicholas says IT'S NOT MYVIEW.I KNOW FOR OVER 50 YEARSSCIENTISTS HAVE SHOWN THAT'S NOTTRUE AND YET OUR SOCIAL SYSTEMSHAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND A WAYTO ADDRESS THE LEVEL OFCOMPLEXITY THAT PEOPLE...Jordan says CAN I STEPIN, STEVE?Steve says STAND BY FOR ASECOND.I WANT TO GET EVERYBODY ELSE INFURTHER.Nicholas says I DIDN'TINTERRUPT YOU EITHER.Steve says MARY, HOW PREVALENTIS TRANSGENDERISM IN OUR WORLD?The caption changes to "Mary Rogan. Writer."Mary says I DON'T THINK ICAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION.I THINK THAT, I WOULD AGREE WITHNICHOLAS, THAT THERE IS SOMEDISCREPANCY ON THESE NUMBERS ANDTHERE IS SOME VARIANCE ON THENUMBERS.I GUESS... I GUESS I'M CURIOUSAS TO WHY WE NEED TO PUT ANUMBER ON THIS BECAUSE THAT'SCOME UP... I LISTENED TOJORDAN'S VIDEO AND THAT WASSOMETHING THAT WAS MENTIONED.YOU KNOW, THIS IS STATISTICALLY,YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SO FEWINTERSEX PEOPLE AS TO BE... IT'SINSIGNIFICANT.Steve says THERE'S A REASONABLECURIOSITY AS TO WHETHER OR NOTWE'RE TALKING ABOUT HALF THEPOPULATION OR LESS THAN ONEPERCENT OF THE POPULATION,THAT'S ALL.Mary says NO, IUNDERSTAND THAT.I GUESS WHAT I'M SAYING IS ITSEEMS THAT THERE'S A FOCUS ONTHAT IN TERMS OF WHAT WE KNOWNOW, AND I THINK WHAT NICHOLASIS TRYING TO SAY, AND I DON'TWANT TO PRESUME TOO MUCH, ITHINK THAT THAT NUMBER IS GOINGTO BE SOMETHING THAT EVOLVES ASWE EVOLVE AND OUR LANGUAGEEVOLVES AND WE GIVE PEOPLE THEROOM TO COME FORWARD AND EXPRESSWHO THEY ARE.Steve says LET ME AS PART OFTHAT EXPRESSION AND EVOLUTION OFTHIS ISSUE, THE USE OFNON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNCE.WHERE ARE YOU ON THAT?Mary says I THINK PEOPLESHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY HOW THEYWANT TO BE ADDRESSED.I DO BELIEVE THAT.IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE IN WRITINGTHE WALRUS PIECE, I BEGAN AT ONEPLACE AND ENDED AT ANOTHER ANDI'LL LET EVERYONE PAY THEIR 7 dollarsTO FIND OUT HOW, THEY CAN BUYTHE MAGAZINE.BUT I THINK THAT FOR ME,IDENTIFYING AS MALE AT A VERYLATE STAGE IN MY LIFE, I DON'THAVE... I DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OFATTACHMENT TO THE PRONOUNCE"SHE."YOU COULD HAVE SAID "GIRAFFE."I FOUND A WAY AT A VERY EARLYAGE NOT TO HEAR THAT WORD.IT MEANT NOTHING TO ME.SO I DIDN'T DIVE INTO THEPRONOUN "HE."Steve says IF I WERE GOING TOREFER TO YOU IN THE THIRDPERSON, YOU WOULD WANT ME TOCALL YOU THEY?Mary says YES.Steve says BECAUSE THATENCAPSULATES WHAT?Mary says I THINK ITREFLECTS WHERE I AM NOW.BECAUSE OF MY LIVED EXPERIENCE,YOU KNOW, FIVE DECADES AS BEINGIDENTIFIED CERTAINLY BY THEWORLD AS FEMALE SOME OF THETIME, NOT ALL OF THE TIME, MYLIVED EXPERIENCE WAS LARGELYFEMALE, AND I PERSONALLY AM NOTSORT OF READY TO JUMP IN WHOLLYINTO HAVING PEOPLE CALL ME "HE,"BUT I'M CERTAINLY FAR ENOUGHALONG IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, HOWI FEEL INTERNALLY THAT I DON'TWANT TO BE CALLED "SHE."Steve says UNDERSTOOD.LET'S GO TO BRITISH COLUMBIA.THERYN, I WANT YOU TO HELP USUNDERSTAND FOR OUR VIEWERS WHODON'T KNOW YOU AND DON'T KNOWYOUR WORK, I WOULD LIKE YOU TODESCRIBE YOURSELF.The caption changes to "Theryn Meyer. Transgender Pundit."Theryn says WELL, I MAKEPOLITICAL COMMENTARY MOSTLY ONYouTube AND I MOSTLY FOCUS ONBASICALLY COUNTERING WITH MY OWNPERSONAL PERSPECTIVES,COUNTERING WHAT I CONSIDER TO BETHE KIND OF HEGEMONYSURROUNDING... THE POLITICALHEGEMONY SURROUNDING TRANSPOLITICS AND WHAT I CONSIDER TOBE QUITE RIDICULOUS OPINIONSCOMING FROM WHAT HAS COME TO BEKNOWN AS KIND OF THE POLITICALTRANS LOBBY.Steve says I'M NOT AS GOOD ATTHIS ISSUE AS I SHOULD BE, SOI'M GOING TO LOOK TO YOU TO HELPME MAKE THE RIGHT... USE THERIGHT WORDS HERE TO DESCRIBE HOWYOU WERE BORN AND WHAT YOU SEEYOURSELF AS NOW.SO IS IT ACCURATE TO SAY YOU'REA TRANS WOMAN?Theryn says YES, I'M... IWISH I LIVED IN A WORLD WHERETHAT WAS JUST OBVIOUS AND IDON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT TOPEOPLE, BUT APPARENTLY I DO.I MEAN, YES, I'M JUST A WOMAN.Steve says IS THIS TO SAY YOUWERE BORN MALE BUT NOW ARE FEMALE?Theryn says YES.I TRANSITIONED FROM MALE TOFEMALE.Steve says IN WHICH CASE DO IREFER TO YOU... I'M GOING TO ASKYOU THE SAME QUESTION I ASKEDMARY, WHICH IS, DO I REFER TOYOU AS "HER" OR "SHE" NOW?Theryn says YES, YOU DO.Steve says YOU DO.OKAY.HOW DO YOU RELATE TO THEEXPERIENCES WE HAVE HEARD ARISEDURING THIS DEBATE WHERE GENDERIDENTITIES AND PRONOUNS ARE UPFOR GRABS, IF YOU LIKE?The caption changes to "Theryn Meyer, @therynmeyer."Theryn says I'M VERYSKEPTICAL OF THE IDEOLOGYSURROUNDING GENDER IDENTITY.I DON'T BELIEVE THERE ARE29-PLUS GENDER IDENTITIES ORGENDERS.I BELIEVE THERE'S MALE ANDFEMALE AND THEN THERE'SSOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN, AND MOSTPEOPLE FALL AROUND THAT.AND JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE INBETWEEN DOES NOT CONSTITUTE ANYAGENDA.THERE ARE TWO GENDERS, PERIOD,AND THAT IS BIOLOGICALLY A SOUNDARGUMENT TO MAKE.JUST BECAUSE... BECAUSE THEARGUMENT THAT WAS MADE EARLIERIN THE SHOW, IT WASN'T ANARGUMENT BUT A CLAIM, THAT THEREIS NO SUCH THING AS BIOLOGICALSENSE.WELL, THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.IT IS TRUE THAT THERE AREMULTIPLE CHARACTERISTICS ANDTHERE ARE MULTIPLE FACTORS THATGO INTO DETERMINING SEX AND THATSEX IS NOT A... THAT THERE IS ASPECTRUM TO IT, JUST LIKE MOSTTHINGS IN NATURE, MOST THINGSDEVELOP ON A SPECTRUM.BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THE VASTMAJORITY OF PEOPLE FALL EITHERON THE MALE SIDE OR ON THEFEMALE SIDE.AND, YES, IT'S TRUE THATSCIENTISTS, THAT DOCTORS ANDRESEARCHERS HAVE BEEN FINDINGMORE AND MORE FACTORS THAT GOINTO NOT ONLY DETERMININGGENETIC SEX, THEY'RE DETERMININGTHE EXPRESSION OF THOSE GENES,SO IT'S TRULY A FASCINATINGCOMPLEX FIELD OF STUDY, BUT THATDOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE IS NOSUCH THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX.WHEN IT COMES TO THE ISSUE OFPRONOUNS... WOULD YOU LIKE METO...Steve says YES, BRIEFLY, IF YOUWOULD, BECAUSE KYLE HAS BEEN THEMOST PATIENT PERSON IN THE WORLDWAITING FOR HIS CHANCE TO GETIN.SO, YES, YOU FINISH YOURSTATEMENT, AND THEN I'M GOING TOGET TO KYLE.Theryn says OKAY.MY APOLOGIES.FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE A LOT OFSYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TOBE REFERRED TO BY THEIRPRONOUNS.OBVIOUSLY AS A TRANS WOMAN, IKNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BEMISGENDERED AND WHATNOT.MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE INTHE SENSE THAT THEY WOULD BEREASONABLE ENOUGH TO ACCOMMODATETRANS PEOPLE AND THEIR PREFERREDPRONOUNS, AND I'M SURE... IMEAN, I WOULD HOPE THAT IF IWERE A STUDENT OF DR. PETERSONTHAT HE WOULD REFER TO ME AS"SHE" AND WOULDN'T HAVE APROBLEM WITH THAT.BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOUKNOW, A PERSONAL PRONOUNPREFERENCE IS STILL A PREFERENCEFOR WHAT LANGUAGE OTHER PEOPLEUSE, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY,I DON'T HAVE ULTIMATE CONTROLOVER WHAT DR. PETERSON... THELANGUAGE HE WOULD CHOOSE TO USEOR ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.THAT'S UP TO THEM.Steve says LET ME FIND OUTTHEN.IF SHE WERE A STUDENT OF YOURS,WHAT WOULD YOU CALL HER?Jordan says SHE.Steve says YOU WOULD.OKAY.WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT.THERYN, STAND BY FOR A SECONDNOW.I DO WANT... THANK YOU FOR YOURPATIENCE, PROFESSOR KIRKUP.I WANT TO BRING YOU IN NOWBECAUSE, AS I SUGGESTED EARLIER,IN NEW YORK CITY THEY HAVEIDENTIFIED 31 GENDER IDENTITIESAND APPARENTLY THE LAW DOWNTHERE SUGGESTS THAT IFBUSINESSES DON'T ACCOMMODATE, ANINDIVIDUAL'S CHOSEN GENDERIDENTITY, THERE IS THE RISK OF ASIX-FIGURE FINE UNDER THE RULESOF THE CITY'S COMMISSIONER OFHUMAN RIGHTS.WE HAVE, IN THE PROVINCE OFONTARIO, OUR OWN ONTARIO HUMANRIGHTS COMMISSION, AND I WONDERHOW SIMILAR OUR LEGISLATION ISHERE ON THIS ISSUE COMPARED TOWHAT THEY HAVE IN NEW YORK CITY.The caption changes to "Kyle Kirkup. University of Ottawa."Then, it changes again to "Law against mis(pronoun)ciation."Kyle says SO WHERE IWOULD START THE DISCUSSION IS TOACTUALLY POINT THAT, YOU KNOW,EVEN THOUGH WE'RE TALKING ABOUTADDING GENDER IDENTITY ANDGENDER EXPRESSION TO THECANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT ANDPROVISIONS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE,THIS IS A LONGSTANDING PRACTICEIN CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTSJURISPRUDENCE.YOU CAN GO BACK INTO THE LATE1990s.AND THE CASES WE'RE SEEING INTHE TRIBUNALS ARE NOT THE KINDOF EXTREME EXAMPLES OF A NUMBEROF DIFFERENT KINDS OF GENDERPRONOUNCE.WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS REALLY MOREBASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONS.SO QUESTIONS LIKE, ARE YOUREQUIRED TO UNDERGO SURGERY INORDER TO HAVE AN IDENTITYDOCUMENT THAT PROPERLY CAPTURESWHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON?DISCRIMINATION IN POLICINGCONTEXTS.DISCRIMINATION IN THE WORKPLACE.AND SO I THINK THE PRONOUN ISSUEIS REALLY A RED HERRING.WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH THEJURISPRUDENCE DATING BACK TO THE1990s, WE'RE SEEING MUCH MOREFUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS, REALLYBASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONSTHAT ARE COMING BEFORE THETRIBUNALS, AND HAVING REVIEWEDTHE CASE LAW, I'M NOT SEEING THEKIND OF NEW YORK SCENARIO THATYOU'RE PROPOSING AT ALL.Steve says WELL, LET ME READSOME OF THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTSCODE TO YOU, AND THEN I'LL GETYOUR FEEDBACK ON THAT.A quote appears on screen, under the title "It's a matter of rights." The quote reads "Discrimination happens when a person experiences negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, because of their gender identity or gender expression. It can be direct and obvious or subtle and hidden, but harmful just the same. It can also happen on a bigger systemic level such as organizational rules or policies that look neutral but end up excluding trans people.Organizations are liable for any discrimination and harassment that happens. They are also liable for not accommodating a trans person's needs unless it would cause undue hardship."Quoted from the Ontario Human Rights Code. January 31, 2014.Steve says AGAIN, KYLE, I'LLGET YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT,INASMUCH AS, IF A TRANS PERSONOR SOMEBODY WHOSE GENDERIDENTITY WAS MORE, SHALL WE SAY,COMPLICATED THAN THE MALE-FEMALETHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SOFAR, AND THE PRONOUN USED TODESCRIBE THAT PERSON WERE NOTTRADITIONAL, WOULD THE PERSONHAVE A CASE BEFORE THE HUMANRIGHTS COMMISSION?Kyle says SO WE HAVEN'TSEEN CASES ON THAT AT THISPOINT, BUT I WOULD SAYABSOLUTELY, AS A GENERAL RULETHAT YOU SHOULD BE THINKINGABOUT IN TERMS OF EMPLOYMENTSETTINGS, ABSOLUTELY RESPECTINGA TRANS PERSON'S PRONOUN CHOICEIS REALLY FUNDAMENTAL, AND I CANALSO SAY THAT IN LOTS OFCIRCUMSTANCES, A PRONOUN MAY NOTEVEN BE REQUIRED.THERE ARE LOTS OF CREATIVE WAYSTO AVOID USING GENDER PRONOUNSAT ALL.SO I THINK THAT... BUT WHEN YOUACTUALLY LOOK AT THE CASES THATARE COMING BEFORE TRIBUNALS,WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT TO BEREALLY THE PRIMARY ISSUE.IT'S MUCH MORE BASIC HUMANRIGHTS QUESTIONS, WHICH IS WHATTHE FEDERAL LEGISLATION HERE,BILL C-16, TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH.Steve says ALL RIGHT.I THINK WE'VE SET THE TABLE NOW.YOU WANT TO GET IN ON THIS NOW,I CAN TELL.YOU'VE HEARD WHAT THE PROFESSORHAS HAD TO SAY.WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?Jordan says WELL, IDON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CLAIMTHAT THERE'S NO SUCH THING ASBIOLOGICAL SEX MEANS, AND ICERTAINLY THINK IT'S... LET'SCALL IT AN ERROR TO SUGGEST THATTHERE'S SOME SORT OF SCIENTIFICCONSENSUS ABOUT THAT.I MEAN, THERE'S BIOLOGICALDIFFERENCES BETWEEN MALES ANDFEMALES IN ANIMALS AND HUMANBEINGS AT EVERY LEVEL OFANALYSIS, FROM...Steve says I'M JUMPING IN HERE.WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION HE PUTFORWARD AT THE END THERE, THATIF YOU DO NOT REFER TO PEOPLEWITH THE PRONOUN THAT THEYPREFER TO BE REFERRED TO, THATIS A FORM, ACCORDING TO THEHUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, OFDISCRIMINATION?Jordan says IT'S NOTJUST A FORM OF DISCRIMINATION,IT'S A FORM OF HATE SPEECH.THAT'S WHY I MADE THE VIDEO.I SAID THAT WE WERE IN DANGER OFPLACING THE REFUSAL TO USECERTAIN KINDS OF LANGUAGE INTOTHE SAME CATEGORY AS HOLOCAUSTDENIAL AND SUGGESTED THAT MAYBETHAT WASN'T SUCH A GOOD IDEA,ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE'S PLENTYOF DEBATE TO BE HAD ABOUT GENDERISSUES IN OUR SOCIETY, WHICH IALSO THINK ARE ALSO IN DANGER OFBECOMING ILLEGAL AND QUITERAPIDLY.SO IT ISN'T CLEAR TO ME HOW LONGWE'LL BE ABLE TO HAVE THE TALKWE'RE HAVING RIGHT NOW.Kyle says CAN I JUMP IN ON THERE... ITHINK IT'S A COMMONMISCONCEPTION ABOUT BILL C-16,THAT IT'S SOMEHOW GOING TO MAKEPRONOUN USE INTO HATE SPEECH.IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THEPROVISIONS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUTVERY MINOR AMENDMENTS TO THECRIMINAL CODE...Jordan says THEY'RENOT MINOR.THEY PUT IT INTO THE HATE SPEECHCATEGORY.THEY'RE NOT MINOR AT ALL.THAT'S A MISSTATEMENT.DON'T TELL ME THEY'RE MINOR.THAT'S NOT RIGHT.Kyle says SO SECTION...PARDON ME.SO SECTION 318 SETS OUT A SERIESOF IDENTIFIABLE GROUPS, ANDWE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CLEARESTOF CASES.THE CASES OF ADVOCATINGGENOCIDE.WE HAVE A SERIES OF GROUPS THATARE ALREADY IDENTIFIED IN THECODE, AND ALL THIS DOES IS ADDGENDER IDENTITY AND GENDEREXPRESSION TO THE CATEGORIESTHAT ARE ALREADY IDENTIFIED.AND SO I THINK WE REALLY HAVE TOADD SOME REASONABLENESS TO THISDISCUSSION.ACTUALLY CLEARLY ARTICULATE WHATTHE PROVISION DOES.Steve says LET ME BE A LITTLECLEARER ABOUT WHAT SOME OF THEPROBLEMS... WHAT YOU MIGHT BEASKING FOR IF YOU WANT TO DOTHIS.FOR EXAMPLE, AND, SHELDON,BOTTOM OF PAGE 3 HERE.LET'S PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP.Another quote appears on screen, under the title "No jail!" The quote reads "Pronoun misuse may become actionable, through the Human Rights Tribunals and courts. And the remedies? Monetary damages, non-financial remedies (for example, ceasing the discriminatory practice or reinstatement to job) and public interest remedies (for example, changing hiring practices or developing non-discriminatory policies and procedures). Jail time is not one of them."Quoted from Brenda Crossman, sds.utoronto.ca, October 2016.Steve says JORDAN, YOU'RE NOTGOING TO GO TO JAIL IF YOU KEEPTHIS UP.DO YOU FIND THAT REASSURING?Jordan says WHAT IF IDON'T PAY THE FINE?Steve says THEN WHAT?Jordan says THEN WHAT?AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THELEGALITIES FOR A MINUTE.AS YOU KNOW, THE UNIVERSITY OFTORONTO SENT ME TWO WARNINGLETTERS, RIGHT?AND THE SECOND ONE BASICALLYASKED ME TO STOP TALKING ABOUTTHIS.Steve says WHO SENT THELETTERS?Jordan says THEFIRST... IT'S THEADMINISTRATION, FUNDAMENTALLY,THE HIGHER-UP PEOPLE IN THEADMINISTRATION.THE LAST ONE WAS THE DEAN OF THEFACULTY OF ARTS AND SCIENCE.BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S COMING FROMTHE TOP END OF THE UNIVERSITY.Steve says AND THE LETTER SAIDESSENTIALLY YOU MUST CALL PEOPLEBY THE PRONOUNS THEY WANT?Jordan says THELETTERS BASICALLY SAID THAT...AND THIS IS PARAPHRASING,OBVIOUSLY... THAT I'M REQUIREDTO ABIDE BY THE UNIVERSITYPOLICIES AND THE ONTARIO HUMANRIGHTS CODE.THERE'S A STRONG IMPLICATION INTHE LETTER, BY HAVING THISDISCUSSION, THAT I WASN'T DOINGSO.AND THEY'RE ASKING ME TO STOP.AND I CAN TELL YOU ALSO WHYTHEY'RE TELLING ME TO STOP APARTFROM THAT.THE CODES AS WRITTEN MAKE THEUNIVERSITY JUST AS LIABLE FOR MYSPEECH AS I AM.SO NOT ONLY IS THERE AREASONABLE POSSIBILITY THAT WHATI'M DOING IS UTTERING HATESPEECH NOW UNDER OUR LAW, BUTTHE UNIVERSITY IS LEGALLYRESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.AND SO I THINK THEY CONSULTEDWITH THEIR LAWYERS AND DECIDEDTHAT MAYBE THE CLAIM THAT I WASMAKING IN MY VIDEO WAS CORRECT,THAT... AND SO I DON'T REGARDTHAT AS TRIVIAL, AND I THINK THELAWYER WHO IS DISCUSSING THIS ISDOWNPLAYING THE SIGNIFICANCE OFIT TREMENDOUSLY.Nicholas says CAN I SPEAKTO THE CLIMATE OF THIS BECAUSE IDON'T AGREE WHICH DR. PETERSONHAS BEEN ASKED TO STOP ABUSINGSTUDENTS ON CAMPUS.Jordan says TO STOP WHAT?Nicholas says ABUSINGSTUDENTS AND OTHERS IN OURCOMMUNITY WHO DESERVE RESPECTAND TO LEARN AND CONTRIBUTE TOSOCIETY IN A PLACE WHERE, IFTHEY ARE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED,IF THEY ARE...Jordan says THEASSAULT SO FAR CAME FROM THESOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS WHO WEREAT THE FREE SPEECH RALLY ANDALMOST TWO MILLION PEOPLE HAVEWATCHED IT SO FAR.Nicholas says THIS IS NOTACCURATE.Jordan says WELL, YOUCAN LOOK AT THE VIDEOS YOURSELF.Nicholas says BECAUSEPEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKINGCOMPLAINTS ABOUT YOUR BEHAVIOUR.Jordan says YES, IUNDERSTAND THAT.Steve says CAN I JUST BE CLEARON SOMETHING HERE...Nicholas says THEOPPORTUNITY FOR SOCIAL JUSTICEHAPPENING, WHAT MANY PEOPLEWON'T UNDERSTAND.Steve says NICK, CAN I BE CLEAROF SOMETHING?YOU'VE ACCUSED HIM OF ABUSINGSTUDENTS BY NOT USING PRONOUNS.Nicholas says THAT'S HOWI SEE IT.Steve says THAT IS TANTAMOUNTTO ABUSE, IN YOUR VIEW?Nicholas says ABSOLUTELY.MANY...Jordan says IS ITTANTAMOUNT TO VIOLENCE?Nicholas says YES.Jordan says HOW ABOUTHATE SPEECH?Nicholas says OF COURSEIT'S HATE SPEECH.YOU WON'T REFER TO THEM IN A WAYTHAT RECOGNIZES THEIR HUMANITYAND DIGNITY.Steve says MARY, LET ME GET YOUIN ON THIS AT THIS POINT.Mary says SURE.Steve says DO YOU HAVESOMETHING THAT YOU WANT TO SAYOR CAN I PUT A QUESTION TO YOU?Mary says BOTH.Steve says YOU'RE A WRITER.I KNOW YOU CARE ABOUT FREESPEECH BECAUSE YOU'RE A WRITER.Mary says YES.Steve says DOES JORDAN PETERSONHAVE A LITTLE PLACE IN YOURHEART BECAUSE HE'S ARGUING FREESPEECH HERE?Mary says THE INTERESTINGTHING ABOUT JORDAN AND HOW IFEEL ABOUT HIS VIDEO AND JORDANAND I ACTUALLY HAD ANOPPORTUNITY TO TALK AT LENGTHBEFORE I WROTE THE WALRUSARTICLE, AND HE SAILS VERY CLOSETO THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN RELATETO AND I THINK WE ALL WANT TOHAVE AN OPEN DISCOURSE, WE WANTCONVERSATIONS TO UNFOLD, WE WANTPEOPLE TO FEEL, IF THEY HAVESOMETHING TO SAY, IF THEY HAVE AQUESTION, THEY CAN ASK IT,THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE CENSOREDBUT HE SAILS CLOSE AND RIGHTPAST IT AND THAT'S WHERE HE ANDI PART WAYS.WHAT I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTANDIS WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE VIDEO,HE PILES A LOT OF THINGS INTOTHE BASKET OF USING THE PRONOUNSTHAT PEOPLE WANT, AND IT SEEMSTO ME... AND YOU CAN CORRECT MEIF I'M WRONG... BUT ONE OF HISANXIETIES, AND HE TALKS ABOUTBEING FEARFUL AND ANXIOUS IN HISVIDEO, THAT SOMEHOW THERE'S ACABAL OF TRANS ACTIVISTS THATHAVE SO MUCH POWER THAT THEY'REGOING TO BASICALLY, YOU KNOW,USING THE PRONOUNS THAT PEOPLEWANT AND CAPITULATING TO THESEDEMANDS SORT OF PULLS OUT THECRITICAL GENGA PIECE OF THEWESTERN CANNON, BASICALLY JORDANIS ARGUING THIS IS GOING TOCREATE CHAOS AND ANARCHY ANDIT'S ESSENTIALLY A MARXIST PLOTTHAT IS THERE TO SOW VIOLENCEAND THERE TO SOW CONFUSION ANDTOPPLE ANY KIND OF HIERARCHY.Steve says CAN I JUST JUMP INTHERE FOR A SECOND?IS THAT AN ACCURATECHARACTERIZATION?Mary says I LISTENEDCLOSELY TO THAT TAPE.I THINK IT IS.Steve says HAS SHE ACCURATELYCHARACTERIZED WHERE YOU'RECOMING FROM?The caption changes to "Free speech versus social justice."Jordan says IT'S NOT ATRANSSEXUAL CABAL BY ANY STRETCHOF THE IMAGINATION.IS IT A CABAL OF RADICAL LEFTWINGERS?YES, IT IS.THEY'VE BEEN ACTIVE BEHIND ANDIN FRONT OF THE SCENESINCREASINGLY OVER THE LAST 30YEARS.AND MY ESTIMATION IS THATDEPARTMENTS LIKE WOMEN'S STUDIESHAVE TRAINED BETWEEN 300,000 AND3 MILLION RADICAL LEFT-WINGACTIVISTS AND THEY'RE...Mary says AND THEY'RE ALLUNDERPAID, SO DON'T WORRY.Jordan says THEY COULDPICK HIGHER PAYING OCCUPATIONSIF THEY WANTED HIGHER PAYINGOCCUPATIONS.Nicholas says BECAUSESEXISM DOES NOT EXIST.ARE YOU KIDDING ME?Steve says LET'S NOT GETOFF-TOPIC HERE, FOLKS.Nicholas says THAT'SDEFINITELY ON POINT...Mary says I THINK JORDANHAS CONCEDED... I THINK I HAVEGRASPED HIS CONCERN, AT THE VERYLEAST I'VE GRASPED HIS CONCERNAND THERE IS A KIND OF CHIPPINGAWAY AT ORDER AS WE'VE COME TOKNOW IT.THE OTHER THING JORDAN AND IHAVE IN COMMON IS A REALINTEREST IN LANGUAGE AND THEIDEA OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHENLANGUAGE CHANGES, WHEN ITEVOLVES, AND, YOU KNOW, I WASTHINKING, BEFORE I CAME HERE, IWAS THINKING ABOUT... I GREW UPIN THE BRONX AND I WAS BORN IN'61, SO I REMEMBER VERY WELLWHEN WE WENT FROM MRS. TOMS. AND MY FATHER WAS APPALLEDAND HE KEPT SAYING, MS. , AND HETHOUGHT THAT WAS FUNNY, BECAUSEIF YOU COULDN'T ACTUALLYIDENTIFY SOMEBODY AS EITHER,PARTICULARLY A FEMALE, AS EITHERMARRIED OR SINGLE, THEN CHAOS,RIGHT?Steve says IT IS APPARENTLY VERY CONFUSINGAND I'M REMINDED OF THAT, WHENTHE SUGGESTION IS MADE THATSOMEHOW, IF WE HAVE WORDS THATDON'T FIT INTO SOMETHING THATWE'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH ANDTHAT WE'VE USED TO DATE, THATCHAOS WILL ENSUE, THAT EVERYONEWILL BE CONFUSED.I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THATHISTORICALLY.Steve says I HEAR YOU.BUT THERE WAS NO LAW OBLIGINGPEOPLE TO USE...Mary says BUT THERE WERELAWS TO OBLIGE PEOPLE TO CHANGETHE WAY THAT WE REFERRED TOBLACK PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE.YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A TIME WHENTHERE WERE ANY NUMBER OF WORDSTHAT WE CAN NOW ONLY SAY ASLETTERS... CAN I SAY THEM ONTVO?PEOPLE WERE CALLED DARKIES,NIGGERS, COONS, IN POLITECOMPANY.THAT EVOLVED.THOSE THINGS CHANGED.WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, PEOPLEWERE STILL USING THOSE WORDS.Steve says THIS IS A NATURALEVOLUTION, IN YOUR VIEW?Mary says THIS IS ANATURAL EVOLUTION AND CHAOS WILLNOT ENSUE.Jordan says IF IT'S ANATURAL EVOLUTION, WE DON'T NEEDHATE SPEECH LAWS TO ENFORCE IT.Mary says OBVIOUSLY WE DO.WE CAN DRIVE SOCIAL CHANGE ANDIT DOESN'T ALL HAVE TO LEAD TOCHAOS, IS MY POINT.WE HAVE SEEN THE FLIP SIDE OFJORDAN'S ARGUMENT, I THINK, WEDO HAVE AN HISTORICAL RECORD OFTHAT, SO WHEN IT WAS LEFT TOOTHERS TO NAME PEOPLE, WE LOSTINDIGENOUS NAMES.I COME FROM... MY MOTHER IS FROMIRELAND.SHE WAS FROM A GENERATION WHOFINALLY GOT TO LEARN HER OWNLANGUAGE AGAIN.SHE COULDN'T SPEAK GAELIC TO HERPARENTS BECAUSE THEY HADN'T BEENALLOWED TO SPEAK IT.WE'VE SEEN THE EFFECT WHENPEOPLE CAN'T USE THEIR OWNLANGUAGE, WHEN THEY CAN'T USETHEIR OWN NAMES.Steve says LET ME GET JORDAN TORESPOND TO THAT.A NATURAL EVOLUTION.Jordan says LOOK,WORDS ARE TOOLS.MAYBE THAT WAS ONE OF THE GREATPHILOSOPHICAL DISCOVERIES OF THE20TH CENTURY.AND THAT MEANS... AND PEOPLE AREALWAYS LOOKING FOR NEW TOOLS TOOPERATE IN THE WORLD.AND IF YOU INVENT A GOOD TOOL,LIKE A NEW WORD, THEN PEOPLEWILL PICK IT UP JUST AS FAST ASTHEY POSSIBLY CAN.YOU REALLY SEE THAT IN ENGLISH.BUT THE WORDS THAT ARE BEINGREQUIRED NOW ARE NOT GOOD TOOLSAND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE AREN'TUSING THEM.AND SO INSTEAD WHAT WE HAVE ISTHE USE OF FORCE DESPITE THEFACT THAT THAT'S BEING DENIED,ALTHOUGH WE'VE ALREADYESTABLISHED THAT AT LEAST IN THEOPINION OF ONE OF THE PEOPLE ONTHIS PANEL, I'M ALREADY GUILTYOF A HATE CRIME, WHICH IS WHAT ISAID I WAS GUILTY OF WHEN I MADETHAT VIDEO.STEVE, THE ISSUE WITH THE LAW ISQUITE STRAIGHTFORWARD.THE GOVERNMENT IS RESPONDING...IS REQUIRING US TO USE CERTAINLANGUAGE.THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS NOT USINGCERTAIN LANGUAGE.AND IT'S A LINE... AND THIS ISTHE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE.THIS IS MAYBE THE FUNDAMENTALISSUE.THAT'S A LINE WE SHOULD NOTCROSS.WE SHOULD NOT ALLOW THEGOVERNMENT TO DECIDE WHICH WORDSWE'RE ALLOWED TO USE.IT'S A MISTAKE.AND IT'S A MISTAKE THAT STRIKESRIGHT AT THE HEART OF FREESPEECH, AND THE THING ABOUT FREESPEECH IS THAT IT'S NOT THERIGHT TO CRITICIZE YOUR LEADERS,WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE USUALLYCHARACTERIZE IT AS.FREE SPEECH IS FREEDOM TO ENGAGEIN THE PROS SELVES THAT WE USETO... PROCESSES WE USE TOFORMULATE THE PROBLEMS IN OURSOCIETY, TO GENERATE SOLUTIONSTO THEM AND REACH A CONSENSUS.IT'S ACTUALLY A MECHANISM.IT'S NOT JUST ANOTHER VALUE.YOU SHOULD PUT CONSTRAINTS ONFREE SPEECH WITH THE MOSTEXTREME CAUTION BECAUSE YOUINTERFERE WITH PEOPLE'S ABILITYTO THINK AND COMMUNICATE.Steve says LET ME GET THERYN TOWEIGH IN.YOU'VE BEEN HEARING THE DEBATEIN THE STUDIO.WHY DON'T YOU WEIGH IN AND PICKIT UP?Theryn says I GUESS I'MIN THE SAME BOAT AS DR. PETERSONWHEN IT COMES TO BEING GUILTY OFA HATE CRIME OR, SORRY, HATESPEECH INFRINGEMENT BECAUSE, IMEAN, I DRAW THE LAW SOMEWHERE.FOR EXAMPLE, I REFUSE TO USEPRONOUNS LIKE THESE AND THEIR.I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM USINGTHEY AND THEIR PRONOUNCE ANDTHAT MAY BE BECAUSE OF THECIRCLES I'M IN, I KNOW PEOPLEWHO USE GENDER NEUTRALPRONOUNCE, I'VE GOTTEN USED TOIT.BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLEARE NOT GOING TO COME INTOCONTACT WITH THE INCREDIBLYSMALL FRACTION OF THE POPULATIONOF GENDER NON-BINARY PEOPLE.AND THAT'S WHY THIS... IT'SNEVER REALLY GOING TO PICK UP,IN MY OPINION, WHEN IT COMES TOMRS. AND MS. , AT LEAST HALF OFTHE POPULATION IS FEMALE, SOTHERE WAS SOME INTERACTION WITHTHE TERM MRS. VERSUS MS. .AND THERE WERE SOME INTERACTIONSSO PEOPLE COULD PICK IT UP.THERE AREN'T ENOUGH GENDERNON-BINARY, I USE THAT INQUOTATION MARKS BECAUSE I HATETHAT TERM BECAUSE IT'S APOLITICAL TERM, NOT A GENDERIDENTITY OR A TERM OFIDENTIFICATION, IT'S JUST APOLITICAL TERM THAT, REGARDLESS,I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO PICKUP.THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THESEPEOPLE TO INTERACT WITH.Steve says THE TWITTERSPHEREHAS BEEN BUZZING WITH THISCONVERSATION.LET'S PULL UP ONE TWEET.THIS WAS TWEETED TO A NUMBER OFPEOPLE, AS YOU CAN SEE IN THEMIDDLE, JORDAN PETERSON WHO ISON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT...A slate pops up showing a tablet with a tweet on it. The tweet is by Morgane Oger and reads "I so look forward to #billC16 putting your kind of silly trolling to an end."Steve says THERE ARE PEOPLE,LET'S GO TO PROFESSOR KYLE INOTTAWA.THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHOHOPE THAT C-16 LIVES UP TOJORDAN'S WORST FEARS.DO YOU AGREE THAT C-16 OUGHT TOBE ABLE TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROMEXPRESSING NEGATIVE OPINIONSABOUT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE?The caption changes to "Kyle Kirkup, @kylekirkup."Kyle says FIRST I WANTTO CLARIFY THAT BILL C-16 ONLYAPPLIES TO FEDERALLY REGULATEDENTITIES.FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNIVERSITY OFTORONTO IS UNDER PROVINCIALJURISDICTION, SO IS THEREFORESUBJECT TO THE ONTARIO HUMANRIGHTS CODE.I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANTPOINT TO NOTE.I ALSO WANT TO NOTE, THERE'SBEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HATECRIMES.IT SEEMS TO BE LIKE KIND OF ANAMERICAN IMPORT INTO OURDISCUSSION.THE ONLY TWO CHANGES THAT THISBILL C-16 MAKE ARE TO MAKE MINORAMENDMENTS TO SECTION 318 AND718 OF THE CRIMINAL CODE.THE FIRST IS ADVOCATINGGENOCIDE.AS I'VE TALKED ABOUT, A VERY,VERY EXTREME, HIGH STANDARD.AND SECOND OFF, AT SENTENCING,AFTER AN OFFENCE HAS BEENCOMMITTED AND A PERSON HAS BEENFOUND GUILTY, WHAT 718 DOES ISIT TELLS JUDGES THAT THEY OUGHTTO TREAT HATE MOTIVATION AS ANAGGRAVATING FACTOR ATSENTENCING, TO TREAT THAT AS AMORE SEVERE FORM.CURRENTLY WE HAVE A SERIES OFIDENTITIES THAT ARE SET OUT IN718, THINGS LIKE SEXUALORIENTATION, RACE.WE DON'T HAVE CURRENTLY GENDERIDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSIONTHERE.I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERYCLEAR THAT WE OUGHT NOT TO BEIMPORTING AMERICAN CONCEPTS INTOTHE DISCUSSION HERE.Steve says UNDERSTOOD.Kyle says SO TO THEEXTENT THAT BILL C-16 MAKESCHANGES, ONLY TO, IN THECANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTCONTEXT, TWO FEDERALLY REGULATEDENTITIES, WHICH IS NOT THEUNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.Steve says NICHOLAS, LET MEFOLLOW UP WITH YOU.WHY, IN YOUR VIEW, DO YOU THINKTHE TRANS COMMUNITY NEEDS THISSORT OF LEGISLATIVE PROTECTION?Nicholas says THANK YOU.THAT'S BASICALLY THE POINT THATHASN'T BEEN RAISED HERE WHICH ISTHAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLYSUFFERING HUGE LACK OF ACCESS TORESOURCES THAT WILL ALLOW PEOPLETO SURVIVE.SO PEOPLE ARE BEING PHYSICALLYASSAULTED.PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE COUNSELLORSTHAT THEY CAN GO TO WHO ARE NOTGOING TO, AS DR. PETERSON HASDONE ON YouTube, RECOMMENDTHAT THEY ACTUALLY BECOME MOREANXIOUS AND MORE UPSET ABOUTSITUATIONS.PEOPLE ARE BEING ASSAULTED.I BROUGHT ALL SORTS OF REALLYDEPRESSING STATS THAT PEOPLE WHOARE LEANING TOWARDS THINKINGTHAT THIS IS NOT THAT BIG OF ADEAL, THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO LOOKAT THOSE STATS.Steve says GIVE US ONE STAT.Nicholas says YEAH.SO 58 percent OF STUDENTS COULD NOT GETACADEMIC TRANSCRIPTS WITH THEIRCORRECT NAME OR PRONOUN.THAT CAUSES A HUGE CHAIN OFEVENTS FOR STUDENTS OR ANYBODYWHO HAS HAD ANY KIND OF ACADEMICTRAINING.AS EVERYONE RECOGNIZES, WE NEEDTO BE ABLE TO HAVE REFERENCES,WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVERésumés, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TOGET JOBS.Steve says I WANT TO BE SURETHAT I'M CLEAR... I'M CLEARLYUNDERSTANDING YOUR POINT HERE,WHICH IS, AND THEREFORE THEYFEEL DISRESPECTED AND THEREFORETHIS AFFECTS THEIR LIFE IN AVERY REAL WAY?IS THAT RIGHT?Nicholas says THE FEELINGOF DISRESPECT IS NOT ASIMPORTANT AS THE WAYS THATPEOPLE IN AUTHORITY ARE ABLE TOCIRCUMVENT THE POSSIBILITIES FORLIVING.SO IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH NOTBEING ABLE TO FIND HOUSING ANDTHEREFORE BEING HOMELESS, HAVEMORE TO DO WITH NOT BEING ABLETO GET JOBS BECAUSE PEOPLE AREDISCRIMINATED AGAINST.SO WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY... WESHOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT FREESPEECH.WHAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUTARE THE SOCIAL ISSUES FACINGPEOPLE WHO ARE BEINGDISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND WHATTHAT LOOKS LIKE ON CAMPUS, WHICHIS THAT SOME PROFESSORS REFUSETO OFFER BASIC DIGNITY TOSTUDENTS AND COLLEAGUES, ANDTHAT LEADS TO PEOPLE MISSINGCLASSES, IT LEADS TO PEOPLEDROPPING OUT, IT LEADS TO A LACKOF POSITIVE OPPORTUNITY FORSOCIETY TO ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROMTHE CONTRIBUTIONS OF MANY, MANYPEOPLE.AND I ALSO DON'T TEACH THATTHERE'S A HUGE DIVIDE BETWEENTRANS AND NON-TRANS PEOPLE,BECAUSE I WOULD SAY THAT100 PERCENT OF PEOPLE WILLBENEFIT FROM MORE OPEN discussion.And one of the problems is that it's being addressed in a black and white way.Steve says Well here's somebody who did not share your view on that. We invited another guest and this person initially said yes and then sent a Facebook message to our producer saying, I changed my mind.Another quote appears on screen, under the title "No platform for Peterson." The quote reads "Giving Jordan Peterson this platform serves to legitimize his views which are based in bigotry and misinformation. The humanity and rights of transgender, non-binary and intersex people are not a matter of debate, and holding a debate which places a false equivalency between the views expressed by Peterson and the human rights concerns of the trans community would be an act of transphobia. Therefore none of us wish to participate in this."Anonymous. Facebook. October 24, 2016.Steve says Do we have two different groups that are trying to make two different points and they find themselves in the same bowl of soupAND THAT'S WHY THIS HAS TURNEDINTO THE CONFLAGRATION IT HAS?Jordan says IT'SPARTLY THAT BECAUSE THE ISSUESWE'RE DISCUSSING HAVE TO CENTREON ACTUAL ISSUES AND THEY SEEMTO BE CENTERING ON THE ISSUESURROUNDING TRANSGENDERLANGUAGE.BUT I DON'T THINK WE'RE TALKINGPAST EACH OTHER AT ALL IN AFUNDAMENTAL SENSE.I MEAN, I THINK THAT THE REALPROBLEM HERE IS THAT THERE'S ACONCERTED ATTEMPT MADE... BEINGMADE BY MANY PEOPLE TO SUBVERTALL VALUES TO THE VALUE OFEQUALITY OF OUTCOME.WE NEED MORE THAN ONE VALUE,FIRST OF ALL, IF WE'RE GOING TOSURVIVE AS A SOCIETY, BECAUSEYOU CAN'T SOLVE EVERY PROBLEMWITH THE SAME APPROACH.BUT THERE ARE MORE INSIDIOUSTHINGS, IN MY ESTIMATION, GOINGON UNDERNEATH.EVEN THE MISSIVE THAT YOU JUSTREAD SAID THAT... WELL, EVENPROVIDING ME WITH A PLATFORM,LET'S CALL IT, TO EXPRESS MYVIEWS, IS SOMETHING THATSHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.IT'S LIKE, YES, THAT'S WHY IMADE THE VIDEO, IS BECAUSE MANYPEOPLE ARE CLAIMING THAT THEEXPRESSION OF THESE SORTS OFVIEWS SHOULD NO LONGER BEPERMITTED AND IT'S THIS VIEW FORNOW, BUT THIS IS A MINOR ISSUEIN SOME WAYS COMPARED TO THELARGER ISSUE THAT'S AT STAKE,WHICH IS THERE ARE RIGHTS TOHAVE THIS SORT OF DISCUSSION...I MEAN, ONE THING THAT HAPPENEDJUST WHEN WE STARTED THIS, THEREWAS AN INITIAL CLAIM THATTHERE'S NO SUCH THING ASBIOLOGICAL SEX.I BELIEVE QUITE FIRMLY THAT IFWE CONTINUE ON OUR PRESENT PATHAT THE UNIVERSITIES FOR FIVEMORE YEARS, THAT'S A DISCUSSIONWE WILL NOT ACTUALLY BE ABLE TOHAVE ON CAMPUSES.Steve says BECAUSE IT'LL BE...Jordan says BY FIAT.THE LEGISLATION ALREADYIMPLICITLY PRESUMES THATBIOLOGICAL SEX, GENDER IDENTITYAND GENDER EXPRESSION, WHICH WEHAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT YET,VARY RIPPED PENALTY.THAT IS...Steve says SOME THINK WE'REI WONDER IF YOU COULD GIVE YOUREXPLANATION AS TO WHY SOMEPEOPLE ADAMANTLY REFUSE EVEN TOHAVE THIS DISCUSSION, THAT THENOTION OF HAVING THIS DISCUSSIONIS SOMEHOW TRANSPHOBIC?Theryn says I THINK ITHAS TO DO WITH... THERE'S ALACKING WHEN IT COMES TOACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO DEFENDYOUR POINTS THROUGH ARGUMENT.SO IF YOU OFFER UP A DISCUSSIONFOR ARGUMENT, THEY KNOW THEYWILL LOSE.I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELYLUDICROUS AND INSANE TO SAY THATHAVING THIS DISCUSSION IS BYDEFAULT TRANSPHOBIC.I THINK IT'S EQUALLY LUDICROUSTO CALL DR. PETERSON BY WHAT HESAID TRANSPHOBIC.I THINK USING THAT TERM SOWILLY-NILLY IT TAKES THEREMOTIONAL RESPONSE AND CONNOTESIN MY OPINION AS HAVING AN OPENDISCUSSIONS AND I THINK THAT'SINSIDIOUS AND MANIPULATIVE.Steve says KYLE, ARE WE BEINGTRANSPHOBIC BY HAVING THIS DEBATE?Kyle says I DO WORRYABOUT SETTING UP A FALSEEQUIVALENCY IN THIS CONVERSATIONAND THAT TRANS LIVES AREN'T UPFOR DEBATE.I'VE BEEN TROUBLED BY THEMISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THELAW IS ACTUALLY GOING TO DO.I GRAPPLED WITH WHETHER OR NOT IWANTED TO PART PATE IN THISDISCUSSION... PARTICIPATE INTHIS DISCUSSION, BUT I THOUGHTIT WAS IMPORTANT TO DIAL BACKTHE HATEFUL RHETORIC AND DO ACAREFUL DISCUSSION ABOUT WHATTHE LAW IS DESIGNED TO ACHIEVEAND ULTIMATELY TO PROMOTE A MOREEQUITABLE AND JUST SOCIETY.WE'VE TALKED ABOUT FREEDOM OFEXPRESSION, TO USE THE CANADIANTERM.WE SHOULD ALSO BE TALKING ABOUTOTHER VALUES LIKE EQUALITY ANDANTI-RACISM, I THINK.Steve says JUST CURIOUS, MARY,I'M GOING TO GET TO YOU IN ONESEC.YOU'VE PARTICIPATED IN90 PERCENT OF THE PROGRAM, WE'REJUST ABOUT DONE.WAS IT A GOOD IDEA FOR YOU TOCOME ON?Kyle says I THINK IT'SAN OPPORTUNITY TO TRY TO WORKTHROUGH SOME OF THE LEGALISSUES, THE SOCIAL AND HUMANRIGHTS AND EQUALITY ISSUES, ANDSO I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE BUT IRECOGNIZE THAT OTHER PEOPLE'SEXPERIENCES, THEY MIGHT FINDULTIMATELY THAT PARTICIPATING INTHIS PROGRAM WAS A MISTAKE.Steve says MARY, IF YOU WOULDFOLLOW UP?Mary says I CERTAINLYWANT TO SAY I FOUND, KYLE, THATWHAT YOU BROUGHT TO IT IN TERMSOF PUTTING THE BILL INTOPERSPECTIVE ACTUALLY REALLYHELPFUL AND PROBABLY HELPFUL TOA LOT OF PEOPLE, SO I'M GLADKYLE WAS HERE.FOR ME ONE OF THE THINGS I FELTANXIOUS ABOUT COMING IN AND I'MPUZZLING OVER, WHY THIS ISSUE?WHY THIS ISSUE?AND I DO THINK, AT THE RISK OFBRINGING IN THE UNITED STATESAGAIN, THERE DOES SEEM TO BE ASIMILARITY BETWEEN SOME OF THERHETORIC WE'RE HEARING DOWNSOUTH RIGHT NOW TO THE ELECTIONAND THIS.IT FEELS LIKE IT'S GREATLYEXAGGERATED, SORT OF WHAT WILLFALL OUT FROM THIS, WHAT WILL...AND WE'RE SORT OF... IT FEELSLIKE A BIT OF A TEMPEST IN ATEAPOT.I DON'T SEE THE CONNECTIONSJORDAN IS MAKING.AND AS A PERSON WHO IDENTIFIESAS TRANSGENDER, IT'S VERY, VERYCONFUSING THAT THIS IS SOMEHOWUP FOR DISCUSSION.Steve says YOU SAW THE TAPE ATTHE BEGINNING OF THE PROGRAM OFTHE... I MEAN, HE TRIED TO GIVEA SPEECH AT A UNIVERSITY CAMPUSAND WAS REALLY QUITE MERCILESSLYSHOUTED DOWN.Mary says AND THAT WOULDBE ONE OF THE PLACES WHEREJORDAN AND I WOULD HAVE SOMECOMMON GROUND IN THAT THERE HASBEEN A TREND IN SOME WAYS FORPEOPLE TO ALLOW NO PLATFORMINGAND THIS PERSON'S VIEWS OROBJECTIONABLE AND WE DON'T WANTTHEM TO COME ON THE CAMPUS.Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?Mary says I THINK IT'SBEST NOT DISCUSSED IN THECONTEXT OF SOMEONE'S PERSONALIDENTITY.THAT'S PART OF WHAT I'M BOTHEREDBY THIS DISCUSSION.Steve says IF YOU CAN'T HAVE ADISCUSSION ABOUT FREE SPEECH ONA UNIVERSITY CAMPUS, THEN IGUESS YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE,BECAUSE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BEWHERE THEY HAPPEN, ISN'T IT?Mary says I AGREE WITH YOU.I THINK THAT THAT IS A PROBLEM.WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THOSEISSUES CAME UP AROUND ISSUES OFSOMEONE WHO WAS PRO-ISRAEL WHOWANTED TO COME ONTO A CAMPUS.THOSE THINGS ARE POLITICAL.MY IDENTITY, MY PERSONALIDENTITY, MY GENDER IDENTITY ISVERY SEPARATE FROM MY POLITICALIDENTITY, SO IT'S VERY STRANGETO HAVE THIS TO BE WHERE WE'REGOING TO PLANT THE FLAG AND SAYENOUGH WITH THIS CRAZY POLITICALCORRECTNESS.YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE YOURPRONOUN.IT SEEMS TRIVIAL TO ME.Jordan says I THOUGHTIT WAS AN AXIOM OF FEMINISM, FOREXAMPLE, THAT THE PERSONAL ISPOLITICAL.THAT'S A FAMOUS PHRASE, THEPERSONAL IS POLITICAL.Nicholas says THEPERSONAL IS POLITICAL WHENSOMEONE IS ATTACKING YOU ON ABASIS THAT IS PERSONAL AND THATYOU CAN'T CHANGE ABOUT YOURSELF.THAT IS POLITICAL.AND THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE SOMETIMESBECOME POLITICIZED IS WHEN THEYREALIZE THAT NO MATTER WHAT THEYDO IN THE WORLD, THERE WILL BEPEOPLE WHO WILL CONTINUE TOATTACK THEM ON RACIST GROUNDS,ON GENDER AND SEXUAL VIOLENCEGROUNDS, AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLESTART TO FIGHT BACK AND THAT'SWHY PEOPLE OBJECT.Jordan says AND YOURATTEMPTS TO REGULATE MY LANGUAGEUSE...Nicholas says I DON'TCARE ABOUT YOUR LANGUAGE USE.I CARE ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THEPEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HARMED.Jordan says I KNOW.PEOPLE WHO MAKE YOUR KINDS OFARGUMENTS ARE ALWAYS CONCERNEDWITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SAFETY.Nicholas says I'MCONCERNED WITH MY OWN SAFETY.JUST SO PEOPLE ARE AWARE, MYPHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL LIFE ANDLIVELIHOOD IS AT RISK FROM BEINGHERE AND THAT'S NOT TRUE FOREVERYONE.I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOURS.Jordan says YOU KNOWPERFECTLY WELL...Nicholas says THAT'S ONEOF THE MAJOR WAYS THAT YOU'REABLE TO DO THIS.BUT I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO BEAWARE THAT TRANS AND GENDERDIVERSE COMMUNITIES ANDESPECIALLY PEOPLE OF COLOUR AREBEING TARGETED AND THREATENEDPHYSICALLY.SO FREE SPEECH IS A GREAT IDEAAND EQUALITY IS A GREAT IDEA,BUT WE ACTUALLY CAN'T HAVE THOSECONVERSATIONS WHEN PEOPLE ARENOT EVEN ABLE TO BE PRESENT.Steve says JORDAN, LET ME READTHIS TWEET TO YOU AND I'LL GETYOU TO RESPOND TO IT BECAUSEIT'S INSTRUCTIVE OF THECONVERSATION THAT JUST TOOKPLACE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU.Another tweet pops up, by Jordan Gavaris. It reads "Ugh, can someone please explain to @jordanbpeterson that there's a difference between freedom of speech and freedom of consequence?"Steve says DO YOU AGREE THERE'SA DIFFERENCE?Jordan says CERTAINLYTHERE'S A DIFFERENCE.Steve says ARE YOU PREPARED TOSUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES THAT SOCIETYMAY DEEM YOU NEED TO SUFFERBECAUSE OF YOUR VIEWS?Jordan says YES, I'MPREPARED TO DO THAT.Steve says WHAT DOES THATENTAIL?Nicholas says ARE YOU OPEN TO LEARNING?Jordan says THAT'S NOTTHE QUESTION.Steve says HANG ON, THAT WASN'TTHE QUESTION, THAT'S RIGHT.Jordan says SO WHAT AMI WILLING TO DO?WELL, I THINK THAT THE ONTARIOHUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL ISPROBABLY OBLIGATED BY THEIR OWNTANGLED WEB TO BRING ME IN FRONTOF IT.IF IT THEY FINE ME, I WON'T PAYIT.IF THEY PUT ME IN JAIL, I'LL GOON A HUNGER STRIKE.I'M NOT DOING THIS.THAT'S THAT.I'M NOT USING WORDS THAT OTHERPEOPLE REQUIRE ME TO USE,ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE MADE UP BYRADICAL LEFT-WING IDEOLOGUES.NOW, IF OUR SOCIETY COMES TOSOME SORT OF CONSENSUS OVER THENEXT WHILE ABOUT HOW WE'LL SOLVETHE PRONOUN PROBLEM, LET'S CALLIT, AND THAT BECOMES PART OFPOPULAR PARLANCE AND IT SEEMS TOSOLVE THE PROBLEM PROPERLYWITHOUT SACRIFICING THEDISTINCTION BETWEEN SINGULAR ANDPLURAL AND WITHOUT REQUIRING METO MEMORIZE AN IMPOSSIBLE LISTOF AN INDEFINITE NUMBER OFPRONOUNS, THEN I WOULD BEWILLING TO RECONSIDER MYPOSITION.BUT I'M ALSO PARTLY OPPOSED TOTHIS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MADEMANDATORY AND HAS THE WHOLEWEIGHT OF THE LAW BEHIND IT.IT'S LIKE THIS IS A VERY BADIDEA.I BELIEVE THIS IS A VERY BADIDEA.AND I BELIEVE THAT THE REASONTHIS HAS CAUSED SO MUCH NOISE, ATREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF NOISE,TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ATTENTIONON YouTube, IS BECAUSE THEREARE THINGS THAT ARE AT STAKE INTHIS DISCUSSION DESPITE ITSSURFACE NATURE THAT STRIKE ATTHE VERY HEART OF OURCIVILIZATION.THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.Steve says DO YOU HAVE TENURE?Jordan says I DO.Steve says SO THEY CAN'T FIREYOU FOR THIS?Jordan says WELL, IT'SNOT ALL THAT EASY TO FIGURE OUTWHAT PEOPLE CAN AND CAN'T DO.CERTAINLY THEY COULD FIRE ME IFI WAS, LET'S SAY... IF THE HATESPEECH ALLEGATION, SO TO SPEAK,STUCK.I MEAN, THE UNIVERSITY... LOOK.THE UNIVERSITY'S BEING QUITEREASONABLE ABOUT THIS,ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO MANYUNIVERSITIES.Steve says I'VE GOT TO SAY, WEHAVE A MINUTE LEFT AND I WANT TOGIVE IT TO JORDAN BECAUSE THEUNIVERSITY HAS NOT SAIDENTIRELY, SHUT UP, WE DON'T WANTTO HEAR THIS ANYMORE.Jordan says BUT I WENTAND TALKED TO THE DEAN ON FRIDAYAND I SAT DOWN WITH MY FAMILYAND I THOUGHT, OKAY, WHAT WOULDBE THE BEST WAY FOR THIS TO GOFOR EVERYONE, FOR ME AND FOR MYSTUDENTS AND FOR THE UNIVERSITYAND FOR SOCIETY?I THOUGHT, OKAY, OBVIOUSLYTHERE'S AN ISSUE HERE, SEVERALOF THEM, BECAUSE OTHERWISE ALLOF THIS NOISE WOULDN'T HAVEEMERGED.SO WE SHOULD ACTUALLY HAVE ADEBATE ABOUT IT.Steve says AND THAT'SHAPPENING.Jordan says YES.I WENT AND TALKED TO THE DEAN,DAVID CAMERON, WHO IS A VERYREASONABLE PERSON, AND I SAID,LOOK, I THINK THE UNIVERSITY OFTORONTO SHOULD TAKE A LEADERSHIPPOSITION ON THIS AND THERE'SISSUES TO BE DISCUSSED HERE.Steve says WHO ARE YOUDEBATING?Jordan says HA.WELL, THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.I HAVEN'T SEEN PEOPLE FLOODINGOUT OF THE WOODWORK TO DEBATEME.Steve says DO WE HAVE A DATE,PLACE, AND TIME YET?Jordan says WE DON'T.IT WILL PROBABLY BE ON CAMPUS INA MORNING IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.Steve says LET ME KNOW, WE WILLTWEET IT OUT THERE.THAT'S OUR TIME.I DO WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FORCOMING IN.WE HOPE IT WAS WORTH YOUR WHILE.WE FOUND IT A VERY USEFULEXERCISE.Nicholas says PEOPLE WHOWATCHED THIS PROGRAM MAY BE INNEED...Steve says DO YOU HAVE AWEBSITE?Nicholas says I WOULDENCOURAGE PEOPLE GOING TOTRANSFORMING.CA.IT WILL APPEAL TO ANYONE WITH ANINTEREST IN LEARNING.TRANSFORMINGJUSTICE.CA.The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."Steve says THERYN MEYER INVANCOUVER, PROFESSOR KIRKUP ATTHE UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA.WE THANK YOU FOR BEING OUTSIDEOUR STUDIO BUT PART OF OURBROADCAST TONIGHT.JORDAN PETERSON OF THE U OF T,NICHOLAS MATTE FROM THE U OF T,MARY ROGAN, HER PIECE IN THEWALRUS MAGAZINE ON BETTER BOOKSTORES AND CORNER STORESSTANDS EVERYWHERE.THANKS VERY MUCH, EVERYBODY.

Watch: Genders, Rights and Freedom of Speech