GameJournoPros Zoe Quinn email thread dump

Friday, 19 September 2014

If that title means anything to you, the content below probably doesn’t need further explanation.

Kyle Aug 19

If you are behind on the appalling doxxing attempt against her overnight, read this first: http://pastebin.com/v4DGSQqR

The very first paragraph of that statement:

“This has nothing to do with games and is not a matter of legitimate public interest, but is simply a personal matter. I would hope and request that the games press be respectful of what IS a personal matter, and not news. This is explicitly about my private life, which has been regrettably forced into the public and framed by people who pose a threat to my safety and well being as well as that of the people I love. I would hope that the effort people have gone through to dress it up as anything more would not be enough to have those who see it for what it is take the bait.”

I understand where Quinn is coming from, and want to respect her desire for privacy. At the same time, I do feel that there is some legitimate public interest in a game developer being attacked by “the internet.” At the same time as *that*, I don’t want to in essence reward the jerks doing this by giving their “issue” any attention at all (I’m not even going to give the bullshit “journalism ethics” excuse for these attacks the time of day. Even if there is any merit to those accusations, the sickening facts of these attacks easily overwhelms it)

But then there’s this, from Quinn’s statement:

“I have forfeited [my privacy] by being a “public figure” in a small community, while those who delight in assailing me hide behind their keyboards and a culture that permits it, beyond reproach.”

That “beyond reproach” part is bugging me, because I would LOVE to use my platform to reproach this kind of behavior… but that would go against Quinn’s valid and understandable desire not to have this personal matter publicized by the media.

So what’s to be done? Maybe we should just stick to Twitter to boost the signal on this one, rather than our “front pages.” (Quinn seemed initially OK with people retweeting her statement (https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/501644035593748481) but then she took down the original Tumblr post, so who knows). Maybe we should get a public letter of support going around decrying these kinds of personal attacks, signed by as many sympathetic journalists/developers as we can. Maybe we should just use this as an excuse to give more attention to her work… I know I’ve been meaning to review Depression Quest since its Steam release.

Very interested to hear what others think on this.

–

Click here to Reply

Devin Connors Aug 19

Child wandering into a movie mid-way here.

I’ve missed about 99 percent of what’s happened because I was busy with a wedding for the last week. What exactly happened to cause Zoe’s above statement? Someone put photographs of her on 4chan? That’s the gist I’m getting from Twitter (please correct me if I am wrong).

–

–

Devin Connors, Freelance Editorial | @devinconnors | LinkedIn

Matthew Hawkins Aug 19

It all starts with this…

http://thezoepost.wordpress.com

Matt Hawkins

| @fortninety

James Fudge Aug 19

The tumblr post is back

http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/95188657119/once-again-i-will-not-negotiate-with-terrorists

James Fudge

Managing Editor, GamePolitics.com

greg.tito Aug 19

I’ve decided not to write about this because it’s kind of ridiculous, but there’s a thread created on The Escapist forums that is getting attention. I am unsure where to draw the line. As an editorial organization, I’ve made the call to ignore the story. But as the controller of a public forum on the internet, I’m struggling to find justification in shutting down discussion. There are voices all over the spectrum in there.

We will of course continue to moderate the crap out of the threads, make sure that all our stringent rules are kept. Should I shut down the thread? Should I bury it? I will be writing a post to add to the thread now, but other than that I don’t know.

Looking for opinions from the group because I’m stumped as to the best way to handle this. Damn it, Jim, I’m a writer not a skilled forum moderator!

Greg Tito

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Matt Hawkins <ma…@fort90.com> wrote:

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

This is the question: People are using your platform to harass a developer. Are you comfortable with that?

greg.tito Aug 19

If there is harassment, I would shut it down immediately. And we’ve banned/warned on posts in those threads that are even close to that line.

I’m talking about the discussion. If I followed your logic, we should also shut down Twitter and the rest of the internet for being a platform for discussion. Which given recent events looks like a very attractive option.

Greg Tito

mikecwehner Aug 19

Individual comments are being shut down if they cross the line, which I think is about as good as you can do in this situation Greg. Telling people they can’t discuss the ramifications of the allegations *at all* is a bit much I think, given that the Escapist forums have always been a place for a wide range of discussions. Banning anyone who is making threats or crossing a line into dangerous rhetoric is really your best move here, IMO.

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

This is the thread: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858226-Zoe-Quinn-or-how-video-game-media-may-have-been-exposed-as-a-pro-feminist-hugbox

Someone signed up for an Escapist account just to post that thread, and try to spread alleged details of someone’s sexual past in order to shame them. I’m not sure what your definition of harassment is, but that fits mine.

greg.tito Aug 19

Many people create forum identities to post one thread. That’s not the definition of harassment by any means.

There’s also many people in both the threads who are working to educate the OP and others about these things. That’s a dialogue. That’s how change happens, I think. Or I hope, at least.

But thanks for the input, Ben. It is very much appreciated and has given me even more to think about.

Greg Tito

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

Ask yourself this:

1) Does that thread serve your community?

2) Is it making anyone’s life better?

3) Is it actively hurting someone?

4) Is that what I want the Escapist to be?

The answers, are no, no, yes, and I hope not. If using the forums to post hearsay to harass and abuse people isn’t against your current TOS, change your TOS. Don’t sit by and let your community be used to making gaming worse because of a technicality.

James Fudge Aug 19

Just my opinions here (moderating is a pain in the ass)

But look at how this thread starts out – it’s hard not to call this harassment.

But the bad part is that, because the thread is alive now and was allowed to flourish, doing anything about it plays into his narrative:

“And yet all video game outlets, from GiantBomb to Kotaku to Destructoid to the Escapist to Reddit all the way through to 4chan’s /v/ do their continual best efforts to simply not bring this up, both in official outlets and, in the cases of GB and /v/, by deleting threads about it, or in the case of Reddit downvoting it and making the links not work.”

Also it violates of The Escapist Code of Conduct:

Don’t Be a Jerk

This rule trumps any other. Any loophole you think you’ve found in any other rule is covered by this one. If you make our forums a less pleasant place to be, we don’t want you here and we have no problem revoking your account. Here are a couple of the things you should stay away from:

Flaming

Calling people names (or groups who may visit The Escapist), this includes calling others a troll. Calling another user a troll is always an infraction.

Trolling

Posting inflammatory, extraneous or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Offensive Posts

Please read what you wrote before you post it and think if anyone else could find it offensive.

Rants

You can disagree with whatever you like but using large amounts of obscene language and CAPS is against our policies. We are sure you can find another way to voice your opinion without being aggressive, regardless of whom it is directed at.

Ban Jumping

If you post on multiple accounts after being permanently banned, suspended, on probation, or warned both of your accounts will be automatically banned.

Targeted Harassment & Bullying

Following a user from thread to thread, insulting and harassing specifically them, or sending repeated harassing private messages, is cause for elevated penalties starting with a probation.

James Fudge

Managing Editor, GamePolitics.com

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

Yeah, I’m really confused and saddened that this is even a conversation.

Jason Schreier Aug 19

“Kotaku employee who reviewed her game, Nathan Grayson”

This is not true.

“EDIT: Oh, and then there’s the fact that the blog post by Nathan Grayson has apparently been taken down. They’re seriously trying to hide it, from my point of view.”

This is also not true. Nathan has never reviewed or written about Depression Quest for Kotaku.

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

I mean, if nothing else now we KNOW the post contains demonstrably untrue things about real people. Serious allegations. Is THAT enough to get you to consider taking it down? What does it take before the Escapist says “Maybe we shouldn’t be giving this a home.”

greg.tito Aug 19

Correct, Jason. I made a point to call that out in my own comment to the thread. I don’t think factual errors in a forum post on the internet, however, are a huge area of concern for me.

The conversation may be distasteful to some of us, but I don’t know if the answer is to delete the thread. The Escapist is not giving harassment a home, but allowing civil discussion on a matter that people are emotional about. As long as it stays within our rules of conduct, and yeah James I don’t think anything stated has violated the rules you posted, then pushing this down would only serve my own tastes and opinions. That’s not what a public forum is designed to be, in my opinion.

Greg Tito

dancstarkey Aug 19

Most of the time, I feel like I inhabit a relatively civil part of the internet. But when I was looking through these comments, threads, and everything else… wow…

?

Kyle Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Kyle - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

You’re involved in video games, Daniel, so I’m really not sure why you thought that.

-KO

dancstarkey Aug 19

My comments are never THAT bad. The worst of it is when people go after my relatives or my partner, but that’s still not terribly common. Plus I’m a huge optimist.

?

Kyle Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Kyle - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

Even if you inhabit a pocket of relative civility within the sphere of “video game discussion on the Internet,” (as I think I do as well) you have to realize the shitshow that is our broader “video game” corner.

-KO

dancstarkey Aug 19

I get that, but some of the things I saw on the chan line of sites was… disproportionately awful.

?

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 10:44 AM, Kyle Orland <kyle….@gmail.com> wrote:

Even if you inhabit a pocket of relative civility within the sphere of “video game discussion on the Internet,” (as I think I do as well) you have to realize the shitshow that is our broader “video game” corner.

-KO

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Daniel Starkey <dancs…@gmail.com> wrote:

My comments are never THAT bad. The worst of it is when people go after my relatives or my partner, but that’s still not terribly common. Plus I’m a huge optimist.

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Kyle Orland <kyle….@gmail.com> wrote:

You’re involved in video games, Daniel, so I’m really not sure why you thought that.

-KO

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Daniel Starkey <dancs…@gmail.com> wrote:

Most of the time, I feel like I inhabit a relatively civil part of the internet. But when I was looking through these comments, threads, and everything else… wow…

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Ben Kuchera - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

Really disappointed in that response, Greg. But I’m going to end the discussion on it here to maintain civility.

greg.tito Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from greg.tito - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

Thanks, Ben! Feel free to message me in private if you want to continue the discussion.

Greg Tito

Kyle Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Kyle - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

“disproportionately awful” is kind of the motto of large swaths of the Internet video game community, unfortunately…

-KO

Andy Eddy Aug 19

My two cents: This is barely a game-industry story, no matter how some people want to frame it. This is a story about a person who happens to be in the game industry and their personal relationships (no matter how it may weave back into “the industry” and however poor the person’s judgments may have been) and public expose of private materials by that person’s partner as revenge, so I don’t think we, as games press, should support furthering the story by commenting, editorializing or even allowing others to ruminate on it.

Something to ask yourself: How would you feel if it was about you. You’re in the game industry…do you then deserve to have your whole personal life available to the world just because you’re, in some sense, a public figure? (What’s Zoe’s best move here…ignore it while it spreads like a tabloid story or respond to it to defend yourself and risk being part of its spread? It’s a no-winner, kids…) Do, then, your fellow game journos have a right to talk about you, because they’re reporters of all that has to do with games and you’re part of “games”? Maybe dig deeper into your past because they can and because gamers demand to know all of it?

Okay, now what if it was your son or daughter or brother or sister?

Personally, there are some lines I don’t think we should cross, and I’ve endeavored during my career to not go into those areas just for hit counts or reader numbers or “because people want to know.” Why is this a “story”? Just because she’s a game developer? Maybe the dev/journalist relationship is something that could spark some talk, but even then…is it really a story that we have to put names to? Is it news to talk about the relationships/sex lives of industry participants just because they’re industry participants? And is it then something we should allow discussion about in our forums?

My answer would be, no.

[Greg, the above was general observation on the initial post and subsequent discussion, so I don't want you to feel singled out...but on that topic specifically, I think you should close and yank that thread. Whatever legitimate discussion in there is just a fragment of what I see as public scrutiny (read: vilification) of this girl and her bad *private* decisions. It's off-topic and, I think, should be out of bounds. Please...]

A E

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:00:41 AM UTC-7, greg.tito wrote:

Thanks, Ben! Feel free to message me in private if you want to continue the discussion.

Greg Tito

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Ben Kuchera <b…@polygon.com> wrote:

Really disappointed in that response, Greg. But I’m going to end the discussion on it here to maintain civility.

greg.tito Aug 19

I definitely agree with everything you wrote, Andy. That’s exactly why I didn’t choose to cover it as news. Whatever is happening is very far outside the realm of what I consider to be interesting. I may write an editorial about the issues beneath the accusation, but others have done that better than I could have already.

The threads in question have been in our off-topic forum since this morning – we’ve merged and moderated the threads extensively.

The Escapist is set up a bit differently than some other outlets in that we have a large forum community which operates separately from the editorial side of things, although I do have oversight. I agree there are statements and opinions in that thread which I disagree with, but that’s true of a lot of the world. I could be easily justified in shutting it down, however, I think removing the ability for public discourse is the opposite of creating an environment for growth and learning. I don’t feel that keeping a thread open constitutes endorsing the opinions within, and allowing people to discuss the issues might actually do some good and change some minds.

But perhaps I am being too optimistic in this specific case. I waver between cynical neutral evil and bleeding heart chaotic good pretty regularly.

Greg Tito

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Andy Eddy <vidg…@gmail.com> wrote:

My two cents: This is barely a game-industry story, no matter how some people want to frame it. This is a story about a person who happens to be in the game industry and their personal relationships (no matter how it may weave back into “the industry” and however poor the person’s judgments may have been) and public expose of private materials by that person’s partner as revenge, so I don’t think we, as games press, should support furthering the story by commenting, editorializing or even allowing others to ruminate on it.

Something to ask yourself: How would you feel if it was about you. You’re in the game industry…do you then deserve to have your whole personal life available to the world just because you’re, in some sense, a public figure? (What’s Zoe’s best move here…ignore it while it spreads like a tabloid story or respond to it to defend yourself and risk being part of its spread? It’s a no-winner, kids…) Do, then, your fellow game journos have a right to talk about you, because they’re reporters of all that has to do with games and you’re part of “games”? Maybe dig deeper into your past because they can and because gamers demand to know all of it?

Okay, now what if it was your son or daughter or brother or sister?

Personally, there are some lines I don’t think we should cross, and I’ve endeavored during my career to not go into those areas just for hit counts or reader numbers or “because people want to know.” Why is this a “story”? Just because she’s a game developer? Maybe the dev/journalist relationship is something that could spark some talk, but even then…is it really a story that we have to put names to? Is it news to talk about the relationships/sex lives of industry participants just because they’re industry participants? And is it then something we should allow discussion about in our forums?

My answer would be, no.

[Greg, the above was general observation on the initial post and subsequent discussion, so I don't want you to feel singled out...but on that topic specifically, I think you should close and yank that thread. Whatever legitimate discussion in there is just a fragment of what I see as public scrutiny (read: vilification) of this girl and her bad *private* decisions. It's off-topic and, I think, should be out of bounds. Please...]

A E

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:00:41 AM UTC-7, greg.tito wrote:

Thanks, Ben! Feel free to message me in private if you want to continue the discussion.

Greg Tito

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Ben Kuchera <b…@polygon.com> wrote:

Really disappointed in that response, Greg. But I’m going to end the discussion on it here to maintain civility.

–

…

Chris Dahlen Aug 19

FWIW – I think this is disgusting, and not worth any space from any outlet. The guy who wrote that post sounds deranged. We’ve all had our hearts broken in our twenties but most of us just complain to our friends. I can’t imagine sending an internet mob against anyone I’ve ever dated no matter how bent I was about it afterwards.

I won’t criticize the Escapist and I’m actually impressed by how well the thread was self-policing (for the one page that I read), but if I were still running a venue, I would steer far away from this. It’s cruel to Zoe Quinn and to many other people who relate to this. And it feeds the worst instincts of the audience instead of finding a way to maybe show them the light and help them be a little better, and more mature.

We were talking yesterday about that Bro Team guy and his adventures as a video creator. One of the reasons he acts like a child, makes the videos that he does, and cracks jokes about his “boyhole” is that nobody was around to tell him to grow up. Guys like that are the ones who are circling around Quinn for all their own pathetic reasons. We should work against that, in even the smallest ways, rather than permit it.

Greg Tito

–

…

Chris Dahlen Aug 19

Also, I’m just reminded of the recent Polygon opinion pieces where they shut the comments off altogether. Commenting on somebody else’s website or forum is a privilege, not a right. If you’re going to be a shitbag, you don’t get to contribute.

.com/d/opto

…

Kyle Aug 19

Silver lining: Quinn is getting a bunch of new Patreon patrons today, apparently: http://www.patreon.com/zoe

-KO

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Chris Dahlen <saveth…@gmail.com> wrote:

–

Chris Dahlen

http://www.savetherobot.com

http://twitter.com/savetherobot

–

le.com/group

…

Ryan Smith Aug 19

Wow, this whole thing makes me feel very old. Lordy.

So, I definitely don’t think anyone’s sex life should be news and I certainly wouldn’t write about it on a site.

But quick question: how did some of you decide to publish the Josh Mattingly story from earlier this year: that appeared to be based on a private conversation about sex. Where do you see the line being drawn? And how do you guys feel about the Snapchat CEO’s emails from college being a story?

I was also wondering if when some of you published stories about Zoe Quinn’s harassment — did you actually ask for evidence of said harassment or just go by what she wrote on Twitter.

-KO

–

<

…

Sarah LeBoeuf Aug 19

Uh pretty big difference between “a private conversation about sex” and sexual harassment, which is what the Mattingly situation was.

–

<div dir=”

…

Jason Schreier Aug 19

If you don’t see the differences between a story about a journalist sending crude sexual messages to a game developer and a story about a game developer allegedly cheating on her boyfriend, I’m not sure what to tell you.

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Ryan Smith <ryansmi…@gmail.com> wrote:

…

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

So you’re comparing writing about someone who sexually harassed a female developer, which is a disgraceful way to act, and covering someone who is being victimized to the point of not feeling safe in her home? Is that a real argument you’re trying to make?

–

–Ryan Smith

Twitter: @RyanSmithWriter

–

u

…

Ryan Smith Aug 19

Hold on to your hats. I wasn’t equating the two at all. I was just asking where you guys draw the line.

–

Sarah LeBoeuf

Writer

–

Visit this group a

…

Kyle Aug 19

Between the harassers and the victims of harassment.

– <br

…

Jason Schreier Aug 19

I don’t know why you think there’s a line to be drawn. “Reporter at moderately-known games website sends sexually explicit messages to game developer who doesn’t want them” is a story. “Game developer allegedly cheats on her boyfriend” is not. That seems pretty simple to me.

ailto:Ga

…

Ben Kuchera Aug 19

That line doesn’t require a lot of thought. It’s incredibly simple.

…

Ryan Smith Aug 19

I’m just asking where the line is drawn at publishing messages that were private that have become public because someone posted them on the web.

Josh Mattingly’s sexual harassment of the game dev (which is super terrible) doesn’t appear to be part of an interview, it appears to be informal chat made public. The Snapchat CEO’s emails became a big story not too long ago, and it was because private emails were made public. There’s also the case of Anthony Weiner’s sexually explicit messages.

Surely it’s not all black and white when it comes to these stories.

scribe@googleg

…

Brandon Justice Aug 19

Personally, I’m just trying to get over the

silver lining” bit. Like, really?

…

dancstarkey Aug 19

The line is whether or not it serves a legitimate public interest. In theory, you can run any story you wish if you have editorial control. You also have the ability to say whatever the hell you want. But you don’t arbitrarily tell a someone to fuck off for saying “have a nice day”. There is no line because interactions, morality, and all that are complex and multi-faceted. It simply requires you to attempt to consider the consequences of your actions and determine if they will bring a net positive or a net negative about.

?

…

Kyle Aug 19

Please don’t take my post to in any way suggest that what’s happening to Quinn is good or desirable. Just trying to draw *anything* positive from what’s been a real depressing day/issue.

-KO

…

dancstarkey Aug 19

Also I realize I made a mistake by saying “the line is” followed by “there is no line” I meant to say something clever and borked it.

?

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Mr. Man <jokeont…@gmail.com> wrote:

…

James Fudge Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from James Fudge - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

The only thing we haven’t talked about is the copyright take down against a YouTuber that has been alleged. That is what I was originally interested in, but there’s too much bullshit in between that I would have to write about (naked pictures, false accusations against a journalist, jilted ex-boyfriend)…

…

Devin Connors Aug 19

This thread is getting awfully nippy…

Britton Peele Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Britton Peele - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

On the copyright claim on YouTube: Supposedly (and I’m by no means an expert, but I believe in TotalBiscuit said this over the weekend) it would be relatively easy for someone to claim they’re Zoe and file a copyright claim against a video, whether they’re actually Zoe or not. So I think even if everything else is set aside, that instance alone is too muddled to make an issue of at the moment.

As for the controversy as a whole, I’ve refrained from saying much either publicly or privately because I’m friends with Nathan, as he was a fellow Dallasite before moving to California. So anything I’d say on social media anyway would be shouted down by the idiots saying, “But you’re biased because you know the guy!” as if people can’t have legitimate opinions about people they know.

But my stance is: This should never, ever have been a “thing.” Shame on the alleged ex-boyfriend for starting this whole mess. Even if every word of what he says is true, there is absolutely no justification for making this stuff public and dragging people through the mud just because you feel you’ve been screwed (justifiably or not). On the same note, I agree 100% that this is not a “news story” that anybody should cover. It has absolutely no relevance. Even the “corruption of a journalist” angle is completely irrelevant as Nathan as never “reviewed” Depression Quest either on Kotaku or elsewhere. The fact that some people online want this to be such a huge deal over a free game I think says a massive deal about where their own agendas actually lie, and their deceitful spread of misinformation is disgusting.

On the topic of allowing forum discussion to take place: I totally see where both Greg and others are coming from. On one hand, it’s something people are obviously going to talk about anyway, so in a way it’s kind of nice to have somewhere where a somewhat controlled discussion can take place — one that tries to step in and stop people from getting too out of line. On the other hand, I totally see the point that the thread itself is already out of line and shouldn’t exist. I’m not sure I agree that either solution is the 100% clear cut answer in this case, and I don’t envy Greg for having to make the call.

—

Britton Peele, Writer

Twitter: @BrittonPeele

www.brittonpeele.com

…

Andrew Groen Aug 19

I had a thought. Maybe a bad one. You tell me: I remember a few years back when Patrick Klepek hit on some tough circumstances we all pitched in to get him a “feel better” gift. Anybody think something like that could be appropriate to address the circumstances that have been forced upon Zoe? Even if it’s not monetary. Maybe a signed, joint letter of support from the Game Journo Pros. I know she’s not a member of the group like Patrick was, but I do know that this is part of a broader theme of the industry losing talent to the toxic culture. And that’s our business. In my mind, it’s a joint show of solidarity to match the trolls’ joint show of force.

…

dancstarkey Aug 19

As the person I’m going to assume is the most irrationally optimistic person here, I like this idea.

Small bits of kindness can do a lot, even when found in oceans of shit.

?

oogle.com/group/GameJournoPros” target=”_

…

Mike Futter Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Mike Futter - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

This seems like an absolutely terrible idea. Hey, Zoe, we’re a bunch of strangers who don’t know you, but in case you were wondering, we’re aware of your dirty laundry. Feel better!

–

James Fudge

Managing Editor, GamePolitics.com

–

…

Kyle Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Kyle - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

I like the signed letter of support idea. Even better if we can get some developers in on that.

Anyone want to volunteer to draft something?

-KO

–

James Fudge

Managing Editor, GamePolitics.com

–

– <b

…

dancstarkey Aug 19

I could. I owe her one actually. She gave me some really good advice when my partner was being… pretty heavily harassed. It’d be nice to return the favor.

?

…

Andrew Groen Aug 19

@Michael

There is an ocean of distance between “hi we’re strangers and we’re aware of your dirty laundry” and “Hi, we’re your colleagues, and we appreciate the work you do for our community. Illegitimi non carborundum.”

Besides, I don’t think ignoring the problem or pretending we don’t know is an effective strategy here. Personally, I think telling someone you know about their troubles and support them anyway is one of the best things you can do for someone. The last thing I think we want is Zoe thinking she’s under attack *alone.* The brain has a way of convincing you that silent people are against you.

I’d also suggest that – if others think the letter is a good idea – we should do this entirely under the radar, organizing it through word-of-mouth and email rather than Twitter. I made the mistake earlier of publicly voicing support and in doing so drawing more attention to the issue. I’d rather not make that mistake again.

<br

…

Jason Schreier Aug 19

As sympathetic as I am to the horrible harassment Zoe faced, I think this incident has raised enough questions about the incestuous relationship between press and developers already…

…

Mike Futter Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Mike Futter - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

I would prefer not to be associated with this. It feels wrong to me. I think it feels very off to reach across the fence from journalist to subject in this way. I prefer professional distance, especially given the accusations being levied at us from outside.

…

Britton Peele Aug 19

I’m with Jason and Michael on this one, no offense to those behind the idea.

—

Britton Peele, Writer

Twitter: @BrittonPeele

www.brittonpeele.com

…

Adam Rosenberg Aug 19

Display images in this post - Always display images from Adam Rosenberg - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

I’m with Futter. This situation is awful, but it’s not the place of anyone here to get involved on any level. The best thing we can all do at this point is drop it and let the involved parties sort things out on their own.

script:” target=”_blank”

…

Scott Nichols Aug 19

Yeah, I’m in the same boat as Jason, Mike, Britton, and Adam. If people who are personally friends with her want to reach out then that seems appropriate, but doing so as individuals seems more appropriate than as a group. As a bonus, if your goal is to counter the hate she’s receiving with positivity, I bet 100 letters of support would feel better to receive than 1 letter of support with 100 names.

E-mail / Jabber / GChat / MSN: kyle..

…

Adam Rosenberg Aug 19

I just want to add to what I said earlier, since I couldn’t really get into it in a post punched into my iPhone and this is something I feel pretty strongly about. The idea doesn’t sit right with me because this whole situation is so much more complex than someone being unreasonably harassed by the Internet.

Let’s just review the sequence of events really quick:

1- Zoe has a relationship that, whatever the reason may be, ends badly.

2- Zoe’s wounded ex goes on a very public tirade in which he airs piles and piles of alleged dirty laundry.

3- The Internet Harassment Squad goes ballistic and rains a shitstorm down on Zoe.

#3 really, really sucks, objectively speaking. But what about everything that led to it?

That’s where things get sticky. This is some straight-up relationship drama, just spilled out across a larger canvas. Who are any of us to say what’s true and what’s not in the alleged facts that have been laid out? And say some of the ex’s allegations ARE true: Is it right to send a message that indirectly validates the shitty behavior he described? Would Zoe even feel comfort at such a gesture, considering it amounts to a reminder of the public embarrassment she’s had to stare down with this whole affair being dragged into a public setting?

I’m not raising these questions to judge or cast blame; I haven’t even read most of what was written (nor will I). I’m just making a point here. Harassment of the sort Zoe’s had to deal with is NEVER okay, and I feel for her, but there are too many external factors. It’s just plain inappropriate for a group of relative strangers to offer up what amounts to a reassuring pat on the back. This is the very definition of a personal matter, and I’m sure Zoe has a support network that she’s leaning on right now to help her through.

Y’all are gonna do what you’re gonna do, but I think you really need to give some serious consideration to exactly who you’d be serving here by sending a group note.

…

Kyle Aug 20

Going off of Adam’s list, I’d say I really don’t care about the truth of the personal allegations about Zoe’s private life, which really has no bearing on anything. The only portion of the allegations I might care about are the ones dealing with “corruption” of game journalism, but from everything I’ve seen those seem totally off base with no basis of facts behind them.

That being said, I do see everyone’s point about it being somewhat inappropriate for a group of relative strangers to send a public note of support.

Elsewhere, ICYMI:

- Vice decided that silence was not the right way to handle this: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/zoe-quinn-slut-shaming-the-feminist-conspiracy-and-depression-quest

- John Walker has a great blog post about the Internet hate machine and how it works (where he refutes some of the specific claims against Grayson too): http://botherer.org/2014/08/20/how-internet-hate-mobs-work-and-why-its-so-insidious/

Key quote from the last: “Even today, I’ve seen very few games journalists say anything. I think most people believe that keeping their head down, “not giving it the oxygen of publicity”, is the best plan. Which is not the case. Every voice added to the chorus singing back against this stuff makes a significant difference. The faked crowd feels smaller when a real crowd starts condemning them. And crucially, it is not up to men to defend women who are being attacked. It’s up to men to join the voices of those who condemn the attack itself, while celebrating the woman being targeted. (And to be clear, retweeting someone else’s saying it is not the same thing at all.)”

…

Mike Futter Aug 20

So we find ourselves between the victim saying that she doesn’t want it discussed and a crusader shaming those of us who honor those wishes. Cool.

I’ll be over here writing about the gaming industry, to which this is completely unrelated.

On the topic of allowing forum discussion to take place: I totally see where both Greg and others are coming from. On one hand, it’s something people are obviously going to talk about anyway, so in a way it’s kind of nice to have somewhere where a somewhatcontrolled discussion can take place — one that tries to step in and stop people from getting too out of line. On the other hand, I totally see the point that the thread itself is already out of line and shouldn’t exist. I’m not sure I agree that either solution is the 100% clear cut answer in this case, and I don’t envy Greg for having to make the call.

…

James Fudge Aug 20

No offense to Walker, but he didn’t post that on Rock, Paper, Shotgun. When he does i’ll be more than happy to consider following his lead.

Until then i’ll (sincerely) admire and respect his impassioned personal stance on the matter.

…

Susan Arendt Aug 20

Count me out of the letter, for a wide variety of reasons.

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:43:18 AM UTC-4, Kyle wrote:

If you are behind on the appalling doxxing attempt against her overnight, read this first: http://pastebin.com/v4DGSQqR

The very first paragraph of that statement:

“This has nothing to do with games and is not a matter of legitimate public interest, but is simply a personal matter. I would hope and request that the games press be respectful of what IS a personal matter, and not news. This is explicitly about my private life, which has been regrettably forced into the public and framed by people who pose a threat to my safety and well being as well as that of the people I love. I would hope that the effort people have gone through to dress it up as anything more would not be enough to have those who see it for what it is take the bait.”

I understand where Quinn is coming from, and want to respect her desire for privacy. At the same time, I do feel that there is some legitimate public interest in a game developer being attacked by “the internet.” At the same time as *that*, I don’t want to in essence reward the jerks doing this by giving their “issue” any attention at all (I’m not even going to give the bullshit “journalism ethics” excuse for these attacks the time of day. Even if there is any merit to those accusations, the sickening facts of these attacks easily overwhelms it)

But then there’s this, from Quinn’s statement:

“I have forfeited [my privacy] by being a “public figure” in a small community, while those who delight in assailing me hide behind their keyboards and a culture that permits it, beyond reproach.”

That “beyond reproach” part is bugging me, because I would LOVE to use my platform to reproach this kind of behavior… but that would go against Quinn’s valid and understandable desire not to have this personal matter publicized by the media.

So what’s to be done? Maybe we should just stick to Twitter to boost the signal on this one, rather than our “front pages.” (Quinn seemed initially OK with people retweeting her statement (https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/501644035593748481) but then she took down the original Tumblr post, so who knows). Maybe we should get a public letter of support going around decrying these kinds of personal attacks, signed by as many sympathetic journalists/developers as we can. Maybe we should just use this as an excuse to give more attention to her work… I know I’ve been meaning to review Depression Quest since its Steam release.

Very interested to hear what others think on this.

–

…

Kyle Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Some thoughts from Klepek, for those still following along at home: http://patrickklepek.tumblr.com/post/95293807754/im-sure-youve-been-asked-already-but-how-do-you-feel

-KO

–

–

–

Senior Gaming Editor, Ars Technica: <a href=”http://arstechnica.com/gaming/” target=”_blank”

…

Matthew Hawkins Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Same here.

Matt Hawkins

| @fortninety

–

–

…

mike.rougeau Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Ditto (though I doubt it really needs to be said – I’m guessing no one is going to start adding other people’s “signatures” indiscriminately?)

/ Mike Rougeau

/ Freelance Writer

/ Los Angeles

/ @roguecheddar

/

Same here.

Matt Hawkins

| @fortninety

–

…

dancstarkey Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

I think that’s dead. I told Zoe I was sorry for the crapstorm, thanked her for being a kind person in the past. She said thanks and now I’m done.

?

…

Kyle Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Display images in this post - Always display images from Kyle - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

Yeah, no one seems to be making any sort of group letter, and even if they were no one would be included on it without their consent I am sure. People should feel free to reach out to Zoe individually if they feel.

-KO

…

Kyle Aug 20

Display images in this post - Always display images from Kyle - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

A more official, non-tweeted response from Totilo: http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014, Kyle Orland <kyle….@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, no one seems to be making any sort of group letter, and even if they were no one would be included on it without their consent I am sure. People should feel free to reach out to Zoe individually if they feel.

-KO

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Daniel Starkey <dancstarkey@gmail.com> wrote:

I think that’s dead. I told Zoe I was sorry for the crapstorm, thanked her for being a kind person in the past. She said thanks and now I’m done.

?

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Michael Rougeau <mike.rougeau@gmail.com> wrote:

Ditto (though I doubt it really needs to be said – I’m guessing no one is going to start adding other people’s “signatures” indiscriminately?)

/ Mike Rougeau

/ Freelance Writer

/ Los Angeles

/ @roguecheddar

/

On Aug 20, 2014, at 11:02 AM, Matt Hawkins <matt@fort90.com> wrote:

Same here.

Matt Hawkins

| @fortninety

On Aug 20, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Susan Arendt <susan.arendt@gmail.com> wrote:

Count me out of the letter, for a wide variety of reasons.

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:43:18 AM UTC-4, Kyle wrote:

If you are behind on the appalling doxxing attempt against her overnight, read this first: http://pastebin.com/v4DGSQqR

The very first paragraph of that statement:

“This has nothing to do with games and is not a matter of legitimate public interest, but is simply a personal matter. I would hope and request that the games press be respectful of what IS a personal matter, and not news. This is explicitly about my private life, which has been regrettably forced into the public and framed by people who pose a threat to my safety and well being as well as that of the people I love. I would hope that the effort people have gone through to dress it up as anything more would not be enough to have those who see it for what it is take the bait.”

I understand where Quinn is coming from, and want to respect her desire for privacy. At the same time, I do feel that there is some legitimate public interest in a game developer being attacked by “the internet.” At the same time as *that*, I don’t want to in essence reward the jerks doing this by giving their “issue” any attention at all (I’m not even going to give the bullshit “journalism ethics” excuse for these attacks the time of day. Even if there is any merit to those accusations, the sickening facts of these attacks easily overwhelms it)

But then there’s this, from Quinn’s statement:

“I have forfeited [my privacy] by being a “public figure” in a small community, while those who delight in assailing me hide behind their keyboards and a culture that permits it, beyond reproach.”

That “beyond reproach” part is bugging me, because I would LOVE to use my platform to reproach this kind of behavior… but that would go against Quinn’s valid and understandable desire not to have this personal matter publicized by the media.

So what’s to be done? Maybe we should just stick to Twitter to boost the signal on this one, rather than our “front pages.” (Quinn seemed initially OK with people retweeting her statement (https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/501644035593748481) but then she took down the original Tumblr post, so who knows). Maybe we should get a public letter of support going around decrying these kinds of personal attacks, signed by as many sympathetic journalists/developers as we can. Maybe we should just use this as an excuse to give more attention to her work… I know I’ve been meaning to review Depression Quest since its Steam release.

Very interested to hear what others think on this.

–

–

William O’Neal Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Who here hasn’t slept with a PR person or game developer? #AMIRITE

E-mail / Jabber / GChat / MSN: kyle.orland@gmail.com

AIM / XBL / PSN / Steam / Twitter: KyleOrl

Yahoo IM: korland_npr

Google Voice: (224) 2-ORLAND (267-5263)

–

Adam Rosenberg Aug 20

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLYNN0cFtOM

–

n: William O’Neal

e: willia…@gmail.com

c:

…

Andy Eddy Aug 23

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

I was told somewhat as much when I started my first job…don’t embarrass the magazine/company by getting drunk at an event or sleeping with someone you met at an event. And “don’t dip your pen in company ink…”

Sidebar: Wil and I shared a room at an E3. Wil used to be in PR. Ergo, I have, in the lightest possible sense of the phrase, “slept with a PR person.” This is the last I’ll say on this topic. No other questions will be answered. (Sorry/Not sorry to Patrick for the cut-and-paste…)

A E

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 4:59:17 PM UTC-7, Adam Rosenberg wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLYNN0cFtOM

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:57 PM, William O’Neal <willia…@gmail.com> wrote:

Who here hasn’t slept with a PR perso

…

Kyle Aug 23

This whole thing is reaching the mainstream via Amanda Marcotte and The Daily Beast, who links it to the larger “misogyny in gaming” angle

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/22/gaming-misogyny-gets-infinite-lives-zoe-quinn-virtual-rape-and-sexism.html

“They see real women like Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian, women who can’t be controlled with a joystick and can’t be shut up simply by hitting an “off” button, and it clearly makes them furious. But unfortunately for the online sexists, their harassment—unlike the kind that happens offline—leaves a clear, legible history that anyone can access.

And that is why, no matter how much they might convince themselves that they’re in the right, their bile is only convincing outsiders that they are nothing more than a bunch of haters who are scared of sharing their toys with the girls.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLYNN0cFtOM

Who here hasn’t slept with a PR person or game developer? #AMIRITE

–

emails from it, send an email to GameJournoPros+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to GameJournoPros@googlegroups.com.

–

http:/

…

Kyle Aug 26

More from Totilo on how Kotaku is responding: http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269

On Twitter, he draws a line between supporting a developer Patreon (not OK for a Kotaku writer) and backing a specific game Kickstarter (OK), which I found interesting.

https://twitter.com/stephentotilo/status/504343015457300480

https://twitter.com/stephentotilo/status/504343255082094592

–

–

Senior Gaming Editor, Ars Technica: <a href=”http://arstechnica.com/gaming/” target=”_blan

…

Britton Peele Aug 26

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

I understand his reasoning on the Patreon/Kickstarter divide and I think I agree with him. Though I’ve personally stopped backing most video game Kickstarters (these days I tend to back a lot of board/card games instead), I can’t shake the feeling that Kickstarter typically works more like a pre-order, whereas Patreon can feel a bit more like having someone on your payroll — even if you’re not personally benefiting (in a monetary fashion) from the resulting content. Especially if it’s not super clear what that developer is working on with your money month-to-month. Like Stephen’s post says, even the “potential” conflict of interest could be messy.

That’s pretty strictly for developers in an industry you cover, though. I think backing fellow writers etc. through Patreon is fine.

—

Britton Peele, Writer

Twitter: @BrittonPeele

www.brittonpeele.com

…

Scott Nichols Aug 27

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Kickstarter is often treated more like a pre-order, but that is not what it actually is and by making a distinction on that ground it just furthers the myth. Patreon, Kickstarter, and Indiegogo are all on equal in my eyes, as they are all means of offering financial support toward creating something. The main difference I see is a matter of scale, where Patreon is funding the continued creation of an ongoing project or projects, while Kickstarter/Indiegogo is just a lump sum for a single project. I cannot see Patreon and Kickstarter in terms of comparing apples and oranges, only in terms of comparing green apples and yellow apples (screw red apples).

…

Kyle Aug 29

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Surprisingly sympathetic interview with Eron Gjoni (Quinn’s ex that started this whole thing) over at Vice: http://www.vice.com/read/this-guys-embarrassing-relationship-drama-is-killing-the-gamer-identity-828?utm_source=vicetwitterus

Like, shockingly sympathetic. And surprisingly focused on some 4chan mascot that is not at all central to anything.

Not really sure what to make of this…

-KO

…

–

…

Chris Dahlen Aug 29

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

I dunno, he seems to confirm that this kid is a gigantic fucking idiot, which had been my assumption.

…

James Fudge Aug 30

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

he’s got a classic case of buyer’s remorse.

–

…

danielle Aug 30

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

I don’t care if this jilted moron walks around with sad puppy dog eyes for the rest of his life, the fact of the matter is that Zoe – and those closest to her – were put in very real danger by the things he posted online. As in, danger of physical violence. If he was with Zoe for any length of time, he would have known what a mob of angry insane misogynists were capable of, but his pissy little feelings were more important.

I have no sympathy for a person who puts someone in danger like that, out of pure spite.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 5:49:18 PM UTC-7, Chris Dahlen wrote:

I dunno, he seems to confirm that this kid is a gigantic fucking idiot, which had been my assumption.

On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:56 PM, Kyle Orland <kyle….@gmail.com> wrote:

Surprisingly sympathetic interview with Eron Gjoni (Quinn’s ex that started this whole thing) over at Vice: http://www.vice.com/read/this-guys-embarrassing-relationship-drama-is-killing-the-gamer-identity-828?utm_source=vicetwitterus

Like, shockingly sympathetic. And surprisingly focused on some 4chan mascot that is not at all central to anything.

Not really sure what to make of th

…

Philip Kollar Aug 30

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Yep, I think Danielle is right on here. I also would argue that interviewing the ex-boyfriend is probably a poor choice, but I guess it was bound to happen, and if it was going to happen anywhere, Vice is the place that made sense. :/

…

Susan Arendt Sep 1

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

“…it’s hard not to sympathize [with Eron]”

Actually, it’s not hard at all. Pretty damn easy, in fact. Fuck that guy.

Ben Kuchera Sep 1

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

I had the same reaction. That Vice article is bullshit.

On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Susan Arendt <susan….@gmail.com> wrote:

“…it’s hard not to sympathize [with Eron]”

Actually, it’s not hard at all. Pretty damn easy, in fact. Fuck that guy.

–

get=”_bl

…

dancstarkey Sep 1

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

You can see him as a person with complex emotions and all that… but he’s also a goddamned adult, not a child. He threw a temper tantrum. That’s OKay when you’re 3, not 23. No sympathy. He can grow up.

?

–

le

…

William O’Neal Sep 1

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Display images in this post - Always display images from William O’Neal - Always display images in Game Journalism Professionals

Dude comes across like a psychopath.

</blockquo

…

Andy Eddy Sep 1

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

From the Vice article:

(first graf) “While interviewing him, I liked him as a person.”

(later) “…and he seemed very decent for a 24-year-old who had just sparked an anti-feminist shitstorm with a blog post about his ex-girlfriend.”

I don’t get the need for the writer to cast himself in this light. I mean, like Kyle said, the article is overly sympathetic to Gjoni, but this is a step beyond that. It’s not like a reader who thinks what Gjoni did was incredibly wrong and put others at risk will read it and say, “Wow, maybe I misjudged him. He’s a likeable guy…”

“(This is edited, but here’s an unedited transcript of our Skype conversation. Parts that I agreed would be off the record have been removed)”

Here’s irony for you…guy who posts numerous personal IM chats with someone asks for parts of his conversation to be off-the-record. I’m guessing he didn’t ask Zoe if any of their discussion would be off-the-record.

A E

On Friday, August 29, 2014 3:56:19 PM UTC-7, Kyle wrote:

Surprisingly sympathetic interview with Eron Gjoni (Quinn’s ex that started this whole thing) over at Vice: http://www.vice.com/read/this-guys-embarrassing-relationship-drama-is-killing-the-gamer-identity-828?utm_source=vicetwitterus

Like, shockingly sympathetic. And surprisingly focused on some 4chan mascot that is not at all central to anything.

…

James Fudge Sep 1

Re: [GameJournoPros] Re: Zoe Quinn

Don’t worry, Gjoni will post them all later when he gets mad.

Not really sure what to make of this…

-KO

–

…

Posted in: Everything else

Leave a Reply

Name (required)

Mail (will not be published) (required)

Website

Follow @Nero

I'm a writer and broadcaster. I founded and sold The Kernel, an online tabloid magazine. I write about media and technology, business, politics, religion and celebrity culture.

I pen a weekly column for Business Insider on technology, media and politics and a weekly column on UK politics for Breitbart.com. In my spare time I like Zinger Tower Burgers, Mariah Carey and guns. This is a place for more personal writing and for things that my laywers won't let me run in the magazine. Read more here.

I write about

Addiction (5)

America (3)

Art (2)

Attention-seeking (10)

Celebrities (18)

Confessions (8)

Entrepreneurship (30)

Everything else (1)

Gossip (23)

Hypocrisy (3)

Literature (4)

Media (33)

Opera (2)

Parties (6)

Personal stuff (17)

PR (12)

Religion (10)

Society & Politics (44)

Technology (50)

The Gays (1)

The Kernel (3)