jessica cheung Hello. austin mitchell Hello! astead herndon Hey, how are you? austin mitchell Buddy. astead herndon Yikes. What a day already. Um — austin mitchell Yeah, what do you mean when you say, “What a day already“? astead herndon Well, we just reported that Elizabeth Warren is dropping out of the presidential race. We’re here in Boston outside of her house. Not in Boston, actually. Cambridge. Waiting for her to speak to a horde of media, both local and national. speaker 1 We have — speaker 2 I understand that, but I was here before you guys all jumped in front of me. speaker 1 Because we just found out we have to move.

astead herndon

From The New York Times, this is “The Field.” I’m Astead Herndon in Massachusetts.

[cheering] Around 12:30 on Thursday, Senator Elizabeth Warren came out of a side door of her house with her husband and her golden retriever and addressed the media. archived recording (elizabeth warren) All right. So I announced this morning that I am suspending my campaign for president. I say this with a deep sense of gratitude.

astead herndon

It’s been two days since Super Tuesday, where Elizabeth Warren’s best finish was in third place, including in her home state of Massachusetts. That put her behind her campaign’s already lowered expectations and made a gathering like today feel almost inevitable.

archived recording (elizabeth warren) For every single person —

astead herndon

She thanks her supporters and her staff and takes questions.

archived recording (reporter) Senator, will you be making an endorsement today? We know that you spoke with both Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders yesterday. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Not today. Not today. I need some space around this.

astead herndon

And when it comes to why she has to drop out?

archived recording (elizabeth warren) You know, I was told at the beginning of this whole undertaking that there are two lanes, a progressive lane that Bernie Sanders is the incumbent for, and a moderate lane that Joe Biden is the incumbent for. And there’s no room for anyone else in this. I thought that wasn’t right, but evidently I was wrong. archived recording (reporters) Senator, why do you think —

astead herndon

And on the question of gender?

archived recording (reporter) And I wonder what the message would be to the women and girls who feel like we’re left with two white men to decide between? archived recording (elizabeth warren) I know. One of the hardest parts of this is all those little girls who are going to have to wait four more years. That’s going to be hard. archived recording (reporters) Senator, why do you think —

astead herndon

She gets emotional, but there are clearly things that she’s left unsaid. But when you ask her supporters who have come to the house to watch this speech, they go there.

warren supporter 1 Oh, I’m so sad. Yesterday, I so sad I couldn’t — I couldn’t move. warren supporter 2 I’m frustrated, I’m disappointed, and sad. warren supporter 3 I’m heartbroken that very clearly most qualified candidate is out of the race. warren supporter 4 Sadly, too many people in this country aren’t ready for a woman president, which is an unfortunate thing. warren supporter 5 Very disappointed, but I guess there’s never going to be a time for a woman. She’s my generation, and we’re not going to see it now. This was our — it’s not going to happen. toddler (CRYING) Grandma, Grandma, I wanna go home! warren supporter 5 Maybe her generation. All right, we gotta go. Look at this little girl looking at the doggie. She likes the doggie.

astead herndon

Today, millions of voters across six states will cast their ballot for the two viable Democratic candidates left: Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. What began as a contest with historic diversity, along racial and gender lines, has now come down to two men, 70 plus, both white. And as someone who covered senator Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren, and with Warren especially, who once led in national polling, I’m left to wonder how did we get here? How did it end up this way?

[doorbell ringing] astead herndon Wow. Oh, those are one of the fancy doorbells, where you can look at it with your phone. Hello, how are you? lyn licciardello Hello, a party. astead herndon Hi, my name’s Astead. I’m a politics reporter at The Times. lyn licciardello Hi, nice to meet you. astead herndon It’s nice to meet you. lyn licciardello I’m Lyn. What did you say your name is? astead herndon Astead. lyn licciardello Astead? astead herndon Yes. jessica cheung I’m Jessica —

astead herndon

So the next day, me and producers Austin Mitchell and Jessica Cheung go to North Andover, Massachusetts.

austin mitchell Should we take our shoes off? lyn licciardello Oh, you don’t have to. jessica cheung You sure?

astead herndon

To meet with a pretty typical Warren supporter, Lyn Licciardello.

astead herndon I only have one sock on. lyn licciardello It’s fine. [LAUGHTER] jessica cheung You have what? astead herndon I only have one sock on. [laughter] austin mitchell How does that happen?

astead herndon

Her husband Tom is there, too.

lyn licciardello Tommy, will you pour water, please? tom licciardello Yes, I knew there was a role for me somewhere.

astead herndon

And her cousin Kathleen.

kathleen lambert Let me take your coats.

astead herndon

And we all sit down in their living room.

astead herndon What do you do? lyn licciardello I am a nurse, but I teach exercise now. astead herndon Oh, very nice. Give me — what exercise? lyn licciardello Oh, well, I teach a class that’s about the first half is aerobic, and then there’s some stretching and strength training. It’s about an hour class at the senior center in Lawrence. astead herndon Awesome. How long have you been in North Andover? lyn licciardello Since 1949. astead herndon Hm. And when did you first notice Senator Warren? lyn licciardello I noticed Senator Warren years ago. I think it was around 2012. I happened to be reading the paper one morning. And I noticed that a congressman named Todd Akin had said a horrible thing about women and pregnancy, saying that if a woman were to get pregnant as a result of rape, then her body has a way of getting rid of that. archived recording (todd akin) It seems to me, first of all, from what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. lyn licciardello And my eyes just flew open, and I said, oh my god, this man is in our Congress. I was flabbergasted, and I said to my husband, who is that woman? There was a — at the same time, I was not happy with Scott Brown, who was our senator at the time. archived recording He doesn’t stand up for women’s reproductive rights and economic security. He co-sponsored legislation to let employers deny women coverage for birth control or even mammograms. He had two opportunities — lyn licciardello And I said, who’s that woman that’s going to run against Scott Brown? I heard that a woman is going to run against Scott Brown. archived recording (elizabeth warren) I’m Elizabeth Warren. I’m running for the United States Senate. And before you hear a bunch of ridiculous attack ads, I want to tell you who I am. Like a lot of you, I came up the hard way. lyn licciardello And I said, I have to do something to help her get elected. archived recording (elizabeth warren) But Washington is still rigged for the big guys, and that’s gotta change. I’m Elizabeth Warren, and I approve this message, because I want Massachusetts families to have a level playing field.

astead herndon

And so Lyn becomes a volunteer for the Warren Senate campaign.

lyn licciardello I was always on board with Elizabeth right after that. astead herndon Why do you think you felt so drawn to Elizabeth Warren? lyn licciardello Because in many ways, she’s me. She’s me. She has the same feelings that I have. She’s actually very close to my age. She has a wonderful way of kind of looking into your heart and mind. She’s interested in you. She’s interested in the people. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Hi, I’m Elizabeth Warren. It’s very nice to see you. speaker I’m going to vote for you. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Wonderful, say that again. Fabulous. We’re here for the chicken. [LAUGHTER] Good to see you. I like your shirt. Very handsome. lyn licciardello Elizabeth has that heart. And, she’s brilliant. archived recording (elizabeth warren) And despite the odds, you elected the first woman senator to the state of Massachusetts. [CHEERING] astead herndon How did it feel? I mean, she wins the race, obviously. How did that feel? lyn licciardello Oh, my god. It was so exciting. I still can’t say that without crying. It was so exciting.

astead herndon

So then, in 2016.

lyn licciardello Well, I was for Hillary. Hillary, I was very invested in having Hillary be president. She had all the qualifications. She was more qualified than anybody who’s ever been president, in my opinion. But because she was a woman, I knew it would be difficult. But I still thought she could win. astead herndon Did you know people or did you hear people say, I won’t vote for Clinton because she’s a woman? lyn licciardello Not like that. But here’s what I did hear. I was talking to a woman who was kind of a stranger, but we were chatting. And we were talking about politics and about how we feel about certain things. So I guess it was like immigration, climate change and things like that. And this woman was on board with all of the Democratic ideals. And then I mentioned Hillary Clinton, and she said, “Oh, I hate her.” And I said, “Really? Because she’s the one who stands for all of these things that we’re talking about.” “No, no. I can’t stand her.” I said, “Well, why don’t you like her?” “Oh, I have no idea.” I said, “Is it because she’s an aggressive woman? Is she too aggressive? Is she too loud? Does she express herself too much?” And her reply was, “No. I don’t know why.” So like a minute later, I mentioned Elizabeth Warren. She said, “Oh, I can’t stand her either.” So I was like, “She agrees with you about everything! All the things that you’re saying you believe in, she is promoting.” “No, well, I can’t stand her.” So, I know. I mean, I’ve been a woman my whole life. So I know very well that that is the reason. Even women will vote against women, because they’re women. archived recording (joy behar) There are people out there who have this idea that you’re not trustworthy, that they don’t like you for some reason. What is that about, in your opinion? archived recording (hillary clinton) You know, Joy, obviously I’ve thought a lot about it, because I don’t like to hear it. archived recording (joy behar) Yeah. archived recording (hillary clinton) So I need to figure out what’s behind it. You know, I am perhaps a more serious person, a more reserved person than is in the public arena these days. So I think people then say, “Well, she’s serious. She’s reserved. Can I really like her?” archived recording (joy behar) But what is inauthentic? What’s inauthentic mean? archived recording (hillary clinton) I don’t understand that. I don’t understand that. Because I’ve been pretty much the same person my entire life, for better or worse, right? archived recording (joy behar) Mm-hm. lyn licciardello Clinton losing made a difference. Clinton losing did make it harder for me to think that a woman could win.

astead herndon

So this year, when Elizabeth Warren announces that she’s running, Lyn has mixed feelings.

lyn licciardello I love that people were getting to know her all across the country. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Hi. archived recording (raelyn) Hi, my name’s Raelyn. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Hi, Raelyn. archived recording (raelyn) I was wondering if there was ever a time in your life where somebody you really looked up to maybe didn’t accept you as much and how you dealt with that? archived recording (elizabeth warren) Yeah. My mother and I had very different views of how to build a future. She wanted me to marry well. And I really tried, and it just didn’t work out. But I also know it was the right thing to do. And sometimes, you just gotta do what’s right inside. You gotta take care of yourself first and do this. Give me a hug. [APPLAUSE] lyn licciardello And it was a pleasure for me to see that, although I was a little bit worried. archived recording 1 In the wake of her third place finish in Iowa and fourth place finish in New Hampshire, Warren said, “My job is to persist.” But persisting and winning are two very different things. archived recording 2 Senator Elizabeth Warren, she came in fifth place in South Carolina. archived recording 3 Elizabeth Warren trailing in fourth place in Nevada. archived recording 4 I think the biggest question that Elizabeth Warren has to answer is, where does she win?

astead herndon

Lyn voted early in Massachusetts for Senator Warren. But in the days leading up to Super Tuesday, she’s questioning her vote and wondering if she did the right thing.

lyn licciardello But I didn’t feel — I didn’t feel bad that I had already voted for her at all, because like she said, vote with your heart. And she was my heart. jessica cheung Did you know anyone personally in your life who were for Warren and then jumped ship? lyn licciardello Yes, my cousin Kathleen. astead herndon Raising her hand. kathleen lambert Yes, actually as soon as Buttigieg and Klobuchar backed Biden — and I was kind of waiting to see how it all shook out a little bit — I voted for Biden because we have to stop Sanders, in my opinion. But I would have voted for Warren, because I voted for Hillary.

astead herndon

As Kathleen is talking, Tom nods and raises his hand.

austin mitchell Yeah, did you raise your hand, too? tom licciardello Me too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, actually as the sole old white guy in the room, I, too, did vote for Biden, though I love Elizabeth Warren, and she would have made an extraordinarily wonderful president. astead herndon By the time Massachusetts was voting, if she looked more electable, if she was a front-runner, you all would have stuck with her? tom licciardello Yeah, you bet. kathleen lambert Absolutely, yeah. astead herndon Did you see when she — obviously when she comes out and talks at her house, did you see that? lyn licciardello Oh, yes. I was here in the living room. I was in my own living room listening to it, watching. And yeah, I cried through the whole thing. It’s heartbreaking. astead herndon Do you remember something she said that day that stuck with you or maybe caused you to feel that emotion? lyn licciardello Well, one of the things was that, you know how she talked about the pinkie swear that she does with the little kids? The first time I met her, which was way back when, before she was elected senator for the first time, she was doing that with little girls that were there. jessica cheung What is the pinkie swear? What is she promising girls? lyn licciardello She says that girls can be president. She gets right down to their level. She gets right down to their eye level and talks to the girls like that. astead herndon The race is now down to two guys, after starting with such a diverse field, gender ratio, all of that. How does it feel for it to be down to two men, when you had four women senators at the start, all of whom you liked? lyn licciardello I know. It’s sick, isn’t it? [CHUCKLES] You know, it was almost inevitable. I think people pan — not panicked, but I think that people are very, very concerned that we have to beat Trump. astead herndon But why does the feeling of “need to beat Trump” then translate to men? So you’re saying, I think a lot of people are scared, I think a lot of people just want to beat Trump, and that’s why it came down to two men. What is necessarily male about those qualities? lyn licciardello Because there are so many people in the country that just would not vote for a woman, like that woman that I was talking about before. And we really feel the need to prevail this time, especially. astead herndon So the idea that a woman candidate is a risk because of other people’s or the country’s sexism? lyn licciardello Yes, that’s how I feel. It’s a terrible thing to have to feel, but I do feel that way. Right now. I don’t think it’s always going to be like that, but I think it’s the way it is right now.

[music]

jessica cheung All right. austin mitchell Thank you. You can go skiing now. lyn licciardello Oh, good. I’m sorry you can’t come with us. That was too bad. jessica cheung Tell us where you’re going. lyn licciardello Warren, Vermont. [LAUGHS] It’s very funny, because we have our ski place right next to our daughter and son-in-law in Warren, Vermont. And our son-in-law’s parents live in Warren, Rhode Island. laughter astead herndon A Warren household to the end. lyn licciardello Yes.

astead herndon

It’s one voter’s view that sexism is what consumed the Elizabeth Warren campaign. And certainly that’s one that’s popular among her most die-hard supporters. But I’m wondering, is this the view inside her own campaign? Do they think that the barriers that gender placed on them were too big to overcome? The same day we met with Lyn, we headed to the Charlestown neighborhood of Boston, to Elizabeth Warren’s campaign headquarters.

astead herndon It’s kind of like a warehousey building, nondescript, very on brand. There is a Dunkin’ Donuts right across the street.

astead herndon

To meet with someone who’s worked for the Warren campaign from the start.

kristen orthman I’m Kristen Orthman, the communications director for Elizabeth Warren.

astead herndon

As communications director, Kristen’s in charge of trying to best translate the candidate to the rest of the country, particularly through the media. And over the course of this campaign, we got to know each other pretty well. Now that the campaign has ended, I’m wondering whether Kristen will speak more candidly about what went wrong and about what role gender specifically played in the campaign’s demise.

astead herndon Is there something different about planning communications and media for women politicians? kristen orthman Yes. astead herndon [LAUGHS] Yeah, in what way? kristen orthman I think that there can be more caution when you’re working for a woman, because you’re viewing things through the lens of much more of “how will this be perceived?” And I think I’ve an appreciation for the challenges of the Clinton presidential campaign probably now than I did when I first started. astead herndon In what way? kristen orthman I think that the fact that there were stories when Elizabeth first ran — there was an infamous one like the day she announced.

astead herndon

This is December 31, 2018, when Warren first announced her intentions to seek the presidency.

kristen orthman Talking about like, I think it was the likability factor, her versus Hillary. Because they were two women who ran for president, two white women who ran for president that had blond hair. I mean, I guess I’m not quite sure what else warranted necessarily that. astead herndon So when it becomes clear she’s running for president, how forefront of mind was gender and the need to define her on her own, outside of Clinton or whatever terms? kristen orthman I think when you’re running for president, male, female, you have to be yourself. So what I was always, and what our team and her always wanted to make sure is, you are showing what you would hope is the truest version of yourself.

astead herndon

One of the critiques of the Clinton campaign, fair or not, was that many voters felt like they never really knew her authentic self, that there was a barrier between candidate and voter built up over all those years in the public eye. So Kristen and her team tried to go in the opposite direction. To distinguish Warren, both from Clinton but also from everyone else.

kristen orthman You know, she runs out on stage. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Hello, Indianola! kristen orthman She dances. archived recording [CHEERING] kristen orthman She stays for hours for photos. archived recording (elizabeth warren) So we just finished our event here in New York City, and I got a lot of notes and a [INAUDIBLE]. kristen orthman She is just like the compassionate and joyful person that I know behind the scenes, was the person that was on a town hall stage. Or the fighter that I’ve also seen behind the scenes, and that many people saw, whether in the hearing room or otherwise, was the person on the debate stage. There is a vulnerability that comes with that, being a female candidate versus being a male candidate. I always was thinking through the risks in that, because I just knew that the “mistakes” that — I’m using quotes, because I don’t always they were, but they were perceived as mistakes — that female candidates make. It’s like a higher bar.

astead herndon

But to her, these risks were necessary components of running an authentic campaign.

kristen orthman Let’s do the things that have now become like signatures, were signatures of the campaign. It’s like, well, OK, she’s running for president to say something and do something. So let’s start doing that. archived recording 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren is leading the pack when it comes to policy proposals. archived recording (elizabeth warren) So I’ve got a plan for 3.2 million new housing units in America. I’ve got a plan to put $800 billion new federal into our public schools. Student loan debt, I’ve got a plan for that. And corruption.

astead herndon

She became known as the “I have a plan for that” candidate.

kristen orthman The “I have a plan for that” just happened organically. Time Magazine put it on the cover, and that’s when it became more of a thing. I think it happened grassroots level before that. People start talking about it, because we were doing it. astead herndon There was like a whole meme section of like, Warren plan. kristen orthman Exactly, that’s what I mean. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

astead herndon

And by the end of last fall, Warren has crossed into front-runner status. She’s leading in some national polls. But this is also about the time that I noticed a shift in the race.

astead herndon The primary change from a contest to ideas, to one of just as obsession about who can win. Do you think that’s true? kristen orthman I think the primary campaign has always been about who can win. astead herndon How does that impact the women, specifically, who are running? kristen orthman I do think I need distance in order to fully formulate, but I don’t think there’s any question that electability was viewed through a lens that probably hurt the women candidates. Because there was a perception that, after 2016, even though the female candidate got 3 million more votes, is a woman not electable? And she has said before publicly that she would hear that from people in the early states. Like, “I’m worried about who can beat Trump.” But I don’t think all of a sudden in October it was like, “Oh, let’s make this primary about who’s going to beat Donald Trump.” That’s what it’s been.

astead herndon

I would largely agree. Certainly, electability has never been far from mind for most Democratic voters. But as more and more people tuned into the race, particularly around this time in the late fall, it shifted its tone. Policy ideas took a back seat to that electability question. And the candidates who had most clearly articulated their path to victory started to rise, while Elizabeth Warren started to fall. This coincided with rival candidates like Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar increasingly casting Warren’s campaign as out of touch with the mainstream Democratic Party and a real general election risk. And so to respond to that scrutiny, the Warren campaign tries to reposition itself as a unity candidate, someone who can actually bring all sides together.

astead herndon There’s sometime during the unity candidate phase, where I did feel like it was different from the fight that we had heard before. kristen orthman Mm-hm. astead herndon How do you square those two versions that we did see just this year? kristen orthman I mean, I think you can both — unity doesn’t mean not fighting. I never didn’t think she was herself. astead herndon Take us into debate prep, for instance. Like, are you sitting there thinking, “We have to package a candidate, and there are concerns about how she’ll be perceived if she attacks too much or attacks too little.” Like, how much is gender a concern as you are thinking about the big national combative moments? kristen orthman Mm-hm. You know, I don’t want to make a big statement saying it’s easier for men to attack than women. I do think that there are probably greater consequences to a failed attack by a female than a failed attack by a male. Because obviously she had a debate performance a couple — two debates ago — where she doing some level of contrasts with Mayor Bloomgberg. laughter astead herndon Understatement of human history. archived recording (elizabeth warren) I’d like to talk about who we’re running against — a billionaire who calls women fat broads and horse-faced lesbians. And, no, I’m not talking about Donald Trump. I’m talking about Mayor Bloomberg. Democrats are not going to — kristen orthman She was really strong. She was tough, and she was dynamic. archived recording (elizabeth warren) Democrats take a huge risk if we just substitute one arrogant billionaire for another. This country has worked — kristen orthman They were contrasting with each other, and I think overall, it was agreed upon that she did well in that exchange.

astead herndon

But this came in Nevada, after two straight disappointing finishes in Iowa and New Hampshire.

astead herndon I mean, if we’re just going to take Nevada, I feel like that is a reason to ask why then and not previously? Were you all in rooms saying, “Well, we can’t attack yet“? One of things I remember from the second this campaign started was the way that supporters were so eager to see her cut down the Bidens and the Bernies and everyone else. It really didn’t get that payoff until Nevada. kristen orthman Mm-hm. astead herndon Why? kristen orthman So I like reject the premise of your question, because I think that you can be both advocating for yourself and creating contrast in ways that are not — that don’t always need to be how it happened in Nevada. archived recording (moderator) Senator Warren, what did you think when Senator Sanders told you a woman could not win the election? archived recording [LAUGHTER] archived recording (elizabeth warren) I disagreed. Bernie is my friend, and I am not here to try to fight with Bernie. But look — kristen orthman Now, some would say about — and this is what I heard frequently from reporters — “Oh, you guys are doing subtle contrasts. People don’t get that. People don’t know that.” I don’t necessarily agree with that. I think that you’re always looking at the bar of how do we balance advocating for yourself and your ideas versus contrasting with other people. jessica cheung You characterize Warren as contrasting with Bloomberg. kristen orthman Yes. jessica cheung Others might characterize that as she was attacking Bloomberg or going after Bloomberg. kristen orthman Yeah. jessica cheung And I wonder — yeah, I wonder if in your role, you’re choosing your words carefully, because you know that male politicians are treated differently or characterized differently than female politicians. kristen orthman I very specifically used the word “contrast.” So you are correct that I was specifically choosing those words. That was your question, right? Yeah. astead herndon There is a prevailing view from Warren supporters that gender was the foremost reason that she wasn’t successful in this race. Do you share that feeling? kristen orthman You think that’s a prevailing view? astead herndon Yeah, definitely. kristen orthman I just think I probably need more time to think about it. And I’m not trying to not answer your question. I think that there were — what she said yesterday around, like, there were basically two ideological, I think she called them poles. We could call them lanes. That’s not necessarily genderized. That is an ideological reason. And then I think electability, the idea of electability, was the other reason. Now, the idea of electability through the eyes of, “can a woman win“? Certainly, that’s gender. And I would add that it wasn’t just “can a woman win?” It was, can a non-white or non-male candidate win? astead herndon For that last point, it seems as if, then, this kind of place that we’ve ended, with two people on the ideological poles, both of them being white males, was that inevitable? kristen orthman I mean, maybe. I don’t know.

[music]

astead herndon Yeah, we’ll see you later. jessica cheung Bye, we’ll see you later. astead herndon It’s so hard to get people — I think this is true. I mean, particularly being a male reporter asking women about sexism, you need people to — like, oh, were you thinking about this, then? But that’s not really how biases work, right? Like, does she say “contrast” and not “attack” because of sexism? Maybe. But it’s so deeply pervasive that it’s not something you actively think about as you’re doing it. And I feel like that makes sometimes the reporting challenge difficult, because you’re asking these candidates, like, wasn’t that sexist? Wasn’t that racist? Wasn’t that blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, maybe? I think there were a lot of challenges in the race, and ideology was one, name recognition is one, fund-raising is one, and sexism and gender pervades all of those things. And does it define all of those things? Maybe it informs all of those things is a better way to put it, but you know, how do you now? archived recording (elizabeth warren) Gender in this race, you know that is the trap question for every woman. If you say, yeah, there was sexism in this race, everyone says “whiner.” And if you say, no, there was no sexism, about a bazillion women think, what planet do you live on? I promise you this. I will have a lot more to say on that subject later on. archived recording Senator, advice to your supporters right now looking for a candidate. What is your advice to them?

[music]

michael barbaro