During an MSNBC panel discussion on Rudy Giulini’s disastrous interview on NBC Sunday morning, an ex-federal prosecutor said his flailing performance indicated that he knows he is losing the legal battle with special counsel Robert Mueller.

Speaking with NBC host Chuck Todd, the personal attorney for President Donald Trump argued about the nature of “truth,” finally blurting “truth isn’t truth” to the incredulous host.

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Asked by AM Joy fill-in host Rev. Al Sharpton “What just happened here?” ex-prosecutor Joyce Vance said the former New York City mayor is “in a very dark place.”

“If you have to resort to ‘truth isn’t truth,’ particularly as a lawyer, you’re in a dark place,” she explained. “You’re in a place where you know your client is in a lot of trouble because we know there is a truth and when two witnesses tell different stories in an investigation, the job is to look at evidence that corroborates one version or the other.”

“But Trump tried to maintain that the truth is what he says the truth is ” Vance continued, “and a couple weeks ago he said you can’t believe what you see, you can’t believe what you hear and at bottom it’s this effort by his administration to convince the American people that there is no truth.”

“That is the most disheartening part of this endeavor because there is truth, it’s what prosecutors like folks in my former job do every day in court — help juries make determinations about what is the truth,” she lectured. “There is a truth about this presidency and it’s time for the American people to learn what it is.”

You can watch the video below via MSNBC: