You said it Colon Dwarf!

This is the argument I had in my notes (that I read out more or less word for word) on the show :

Its easy to look at an artist who has a massive body of work and see their influence on the goth subculture who has been there from the very beginning. We all know the big obvious names who everyone always gives accolades to. This is not one of those people. I'm not going that route for this. I'm arguing my point based on their impact on goth as a whole. More for the subculture than the overall music library.

Everyone always bangs on about the artists who started it all or were there near the beginning. Granted, these people are all influential and important. But maybe they are not as important as they used to be. The goth subculture has changed a lot over the years and as the times change we have to change with them. Old icons fall and new ones rise to replace them. My choice for most influential is not on the musical side, but it is certainly on the influential side for the goth subculture as a whole and not always in a good way.

The artist I am referring to is Marilyn Manson. You may have some time for jeers and cursing now.

Finished? Allow me to elaborate. Since the mid 90s Manson has had a major impact on the goth subculture. For many people he is their first exposure to dark alternative even if his music is mislabelled as "goth" by the media. The man himself might be a goth but thats an argument for another time. If people can argue the case of artists like David Bowie (who is not goth) then Marilyn Manson's case is just as valid.

The amount of new blood brought into the goth subculture through Marilyn Manson is massive. And its been going on for at least 20 years. That alone places him high on the influence hierarchy. But there is more.

While Manson's music is not goth, it does see a lot of play in "goth" clubs across the world. While you will never hear his stuff at a purist goth night, these nights are a lot rarer than they used to be. If you want a sure fire dancefloor filler, throw on The Beautiful People. Thats on the rare chance Manson hasn't been requested beforehand, most of the time it will be. Multiple times.

Manson has also had a lot of influence on music in and around the goth subculture. I have noticed a few bands take a bit of a Manson-esque turn in their music (EG Combichrist) and other bands who were clearly influenced by him (EG Orgy andJesus on Exstacy).

Manson also bring controversy and that brings exposure. And I'm not talking controversy like Peter Murphy being arrested for drugs. Take Columbine and Michael Moore's documentary for example. It was controversial that the shooters were Manson fans but when they interviewed him he spoke beautifully. Like it or not we were represented well by him.

The biggest influence is how Marilyn Manson brings people from the goth subculture, alternative culture and the mainstream together. He is out there and freaky. He shows that it is ok to be different. This is something a lot of younger people need as it assists in validating their identity and development. As I said before, for many people he is the first exposure they get. He may be a phase for some but I know some Manson fans who are just as die hard in their 30s and 40s. Not everyone who gets into the goth subculture through Manson will become goth but they still participate and experience it. More people is always a good thing for the subculture's survival. In fact the fringe attendees often mean an event's survival.

For young people today, Marilyn Manson is much more influential thanthan the old icons will ever be because he is accessible, he is well known and his music resonates with how they feel. He is the most important gateway to the goth subculture there has ever been.

We already have lots of goth music but we have very few people who are ambassadors for the subculture that the mainstream will give exposure to. Especially relevant and current artists who aren't touring to cash in on past glory where the only reason why you know they are coming is you know the right people. Manson comes to town and everybody knows.

To be technical, we are talking about influences. There is no specification that they have to be a good influence. In many ways Manson has been a terrible influence but that is why he is important. All goths have a mansonite story they like to bitch about. Goths love to bitch and it gives them a deserving target. No one else inspires the same level of ire like Marilyn Manson himself or having someone assume you must be a Manson fan or having to deal with a rabid Manson fan who thinks it makes them goth. Goth as we currently know it would be very different without this element to focus frustrations upon.

To be fair I'm not that big a Marilyn Manson fan. You don't have to like an icon to see their influence. I am not arguing this case from a star struck fan perspective, its from a perspective of a long time participant in the goth subculture and dark alternative subculture in general. I'm out there on the front lines at events and various places on the internet where goths gather. I see what people say, do and wear. His influence is undeniable and will only continue to grow.