Simon Says

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https://simonsays.ai

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Created on: 2019-05-16 05:06:12

Project Length: 01:01:50

File Name: 128c6cbd-fe09-4a1d-bbe7-1b4462067800.mp3

File Length: 01:01:50

SPEAKERS

[NR] Nick Rust

[JS] Jonathan Small

[S] Sethatos/Dave

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FULL TRANSCRIPT (with timecode)

00:00:13:04 - 00:00:15:04

[NR]

Welcome to the Literate Gamer. I'm Nick Rust.

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[JS]

And I am Jonathan Small.

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[NR]

Tooooday we have a guest. We're joined by a true luminary and legend in the Dwarf Fortress community, Sethatos, the architect of the ArchCrystal fortress. Or also known as Dave.

00:00:35:24 - 00:00:37:19

[S]

*laughing* Hey, guys. Thanks for having me.

00:00:38:07 - 00:00:44:05

[NR]

Ha ha! Now, one of the reasons we had you on the podcast is that we had an excuse to talk about Dwarf Fortress.

00:00:44:29 - 00:00:45:10

[S]

Great.

00:00:45:21 - 00:01:04:00

[NR] Because I look for any excuse to talk about Dwarf Fortress on the podcasts especially now. Right. There's been big news torturous is finally coming to Steam. And with that it's getting an official tileset. So we're in brand new territory now.

00:01:04:04 - 00:01:05:00

Thank God.

00:01:06:25 - 00:01:14:03

Oh I got where you guys is. Let me start by asking you a question what were you guys initial reaction when you heard the announcement.

00:01:14:03 - 00:01:20:23

I think it's the best possible news. Well. I was thinking this is a really good guess to have on this podcast

00:01:23:09 - 00:01:24:05

Now.

00:01:24:05 - 00:01:28:23

Jonathan let's be clear is not funny because I just learned it now.

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That's that's the joke that I'm making. All right.

00:01:32:12 - 00:01:55:05

Know I think it is the best of all possible news because Steam is unavoidable in the game space and it's really hard to get in front of a lot of consumers. Now I get the fact Dwarf Fortress one of its charms is the bleakness. How difficult it is of a thing to understand or master. And that's been part of its appeal so far.

00:01:55:09 - 00:01:55:23

But

00:01:57:17 - 00:02:00:18

now no more people need to get in on this.

00:02:01:00 - 00:02:07:06

I'm tired of the old people that are playing to our fortunes are people that are active in the game community to some extent.

00:02:07:12 - 00:02:20:14

Right. Right. Because like half a game designers out there are playing this fucking game or have and I think more people if more people can get in. That's only better. Mm hmm. Yeah. No I agree.

00:02:20:15 - 00:02:41:29

When I first heard it I thought oh that's interesting. And then I heard it was Kit Fox doing it. I'm like Man that is a big win for kit fox like they have basically a brand that's like 10 years old with a great player base with like a great developer who's not going anywhere. And all they'd have to do is promote it like that's perfect for both of them.

00:02:42:08 - 00:03:12:13

Oh and the rate they gave them the Fox gave the Adams brothers is just phenomenal. It's insane. Yeah. Fox is getting only 20 percent steam cut which means 80 percent goes to the Adams brothers and they basically don't have to do hardly anything when it comes to the Steam version of the game. He just works on core that's his job or their job. Yeah. So yeah.

00:03:12:14 - 00:03:35:04

No this is fantastic. And the choice of Fox I think is really good too. I've been really impressed with the work they've done so far. I absolutely adored Moon hunters. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah it is it's fantastic. I'm a huge fan of mythology and the fact that they made this weird little like co-operative storytelling game based on Sumerian myth was like the best thing that ever happened to me.

00:03:37:16 - 00:04:04:20

I was like I know these people I know who that is but they don't have to program anything they have to promote it. I'm just worried. The only worry I have is that they're going to trot Tarn out you know like a little too often to do press interviews where it's like no we want him to program the game like there's. There's stuff to do there that we like but we all know how those those dates fall by the wayside.

00:04:06:20 - 00:04:17:02

Well anybody who's not willing to wait is not going to be playing Dwarf Fortress. I mean really really this there is a huge barrier blades to entry to this one.

00:04:17:14 - 00:04:40:00

I don't I don't think I don't see him doing a lot of extra press. I know Kate Fox in particular is trying to do as much of the steam facing stuff as possible. I think we're going to actually have them on this show to tell you about the steam client and the steam approach itself. Along with all the other cool stuff they're doing because I really want to talk about boyfriend dungeon.

00:04:40:01 - 00:04:42:29

I heard the title but I don't know what that is.

00:04:43:00 - 00:04:46:00

So you actually aim for everything.

00:04:46:05 - 00:05:04:13

It's this weird amalgamation of like visual model and rogue like where this rogue like game but your weapons turn into men that you can date. Third it sounds amazing and I can't wait you have my attention

00:05:10:06 - 00:05:24:11

But I do have some lingering questions about like quality of life improvements that the community has kind of done because I don't know about you but I don't play this game in its real state

00:05:25:18 - 00:05:47:07

I never have. I still play off the title set actually and I'll get people on the forums ask me like why do you play with the title said like I can't understand it. I don't care if you understand it. I'm playing it. I. Know. What's. With the title said. The answer is exactly I don't understand it. That's right.

00:05:47:13 - 00:06:02:15

It's like I needed the title set and things like I mean dwarf therapist. The add on for it is like you need it if you're ever gonna do anything with that game and life and death hack just does so many quality of life improvements.

00:06:02:15 - 00:06:26:00

Life goes on and will organically flag or disable things based on preferences that you that you state and makes it just easier to deal with the damn game like because just doing construction can be a pain in the ass without Dorf without the hack in DFAT honestly it keeps my game running like it does while mine.

00:06:26:01 - 00:06:36:16

I mean like I've played it for it'll be four years in June. This one fortress and it's four hundred and fifty six years old in game years. So

00:06:36:16 - 00:06:43:00

So if I didn't use auto dump and clean all I would not have an F P.S. Like it wouldn't even say 0.

00:06:43:01 - 00:06:47:07

It would go into negative numbers after a while.

00:06:47:20 - 00:07:11:09

Right. And the ability to like limit the number of of active doors in your population. Things like that like those are all like pretty core quality of life because without those controls like your population could spin into a death spiral of a thousand dwarves and then you would get you know 2 frames per second and it would take like an hour to get through a day things like that.

00:07:11:09 - 00:07:12:06

So yeah. Yeah.

00:07:12:07 - 00:07:28:04

Night. I hope those features can come with the steam version like I'm a. I've heard comments that they all it runs separately doesn't really kind of runs with it but I think they use all of the models that you can that are already there.

00:07:28:04 - 00:07:34:13

I think the steam state is pretty good with mods and having a lot of games available.

00:07:34:22 - 00:07:40:13

OK here's the here's the good news is that Steam Workshop support will be and it will be available day 1. Civil

00:07:40:13 - 00:07:51:20

Civil rights stuff can come in through Steam Workshop and can be deployed automatically because now you've got to go out. You gonna update shit manually and it's a giant pain as like but it is way better than it used to be. Even

00:07:53:24 - 00:08:24:21

so there's that but again like they can't put that stuff into core without cutting them a check because once you take that modder and you put his code in the deal the end result. That guy needs to get paid. And fair enough. I mean that's the way it should be. But that means we're got to leave a bunch of stuff on the table. Least of all music which is something which is we're not going to talk about right now because I think there are some better choices they could've made there but you know no Michael not my call. I'm surprised.

00:08:24:23 - 00:08:29:25

I'm surprised that they they have any music without a dwarf actively playing it.

00:08:31:15 - 00:08:44:26

Well there's a guy in the community. He's South African. That's like the dwarf bard. So but they're not using his music which which which means he says he's the one who did sound science right.

00:08:45:10 - 00:08:47:19

Yeah. Yeah yeah. That's great.

00:08:50:03 - 00:09:24:17

But overall I think it's going to be fantastic. Like it's all progress is what I'm coming down to is. It doesn't it doesn't matter if we have to leave a bunch of stuff on the table we can get there again some other way round some of the people that like math. For one with somebody they simply couldn't not involve. So a lot of his stuff is gonna be there. Day one either as a direct consequence of the same program which he is a member of or because he's had access to it for so long it will be ready to go.

00:09:25:08 - 00:09:32:27

So yeah looking for that master work to finally knock out a whole bunch of other people of one steam support maybe.

00:09:34:17 - 00:09:46:03

Yeah. No I hope the steam like the the DFA classic The core game comes out and like the steam's updated like a day later like that would be probably heaven for both parties.

00:09:46:04 - 00:09:46:24

Yeah but

00:09:48:09 - 00:09:52:29

we have to remember the big twelve timing.

00:09:52:29 - 00:10:00:19

So let's let's let's let's be a little realistic. I think I think three months would be good.

00:10:00:20 - 00:10:23:26

I'm still waiting because there's actually a bug in the game right now and it's it's the equipment bug for your military and it will cause mine to crash like if I have squads in any kind of form. So like I've been hoping for an update and that bug fix but I know that if you know someone says 2 weeks to add like 8 or 9 or 18 weeks on to that

00:10:25:21 - 00:10:35:03

I mean you steam users are very used to that I mean Minecraft and don't starve or beat you know early access for 5 years each.

00:10:35:03 - 00:10:36:05

You know just right

00:10:38:20 - 00:10:41:21

all right so let's talk about the fortress itself. Sure.

00:10:41:22 - 00:10:49:09

Did you do you downloaded it. I'm assuming I did. This thing is huge. It's ridiculous.

00:10:49:09 - 00:11:14:20

Oh my God. It's like 500 Meg is 350 Meg zips compressed. Yes. Which is absurd for a save file size that I actually got inside of it when I sat back and I went I have no idea how to play this game. It's it's a thing of beauty.

00:11:14:21 - 00:11:22:05

So would you believe that that's the only the fifth fortress I've ever created shot.

00:11:22:26 - 00:12:05:11

Now the first two I played and this is I guess is five years ago now. The first two I played went down in flames instantly. Third one I got to maybe 10 years. The fourth one I got to about say 20 years but I like I really wanted a generational fortress where like you know families had kids and then their kids had kids and they're like that's the most interesting part of the game to me is when you can create those lineages and like have your own interesting history like right now with the game you can go back and legends and like view like this huge information dump of history and like it makes no sense to you whatsoever.

00:12:05:11 - 00:12:36:27

So I remember having an idea like that wouldn't it be cool if I knew the characters in that you know information dump and actually had some sort of attachment to them. So I decided like I I'd make a fortress that you know at least spanned three generations and that was my goal. And then it sort of turned into that. That I was looking at some stuff and I think you've encountered something ridiculous like eighty five forgotten beasts. Oh more than that. I think it's I think it's two hundred and something

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and they're all dead.

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Like they're all killed by the.

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And if you look at the weapons like you can look and see you know the swords that have been passed down from generation to generation like they all have recorded kills on them so you can go back and has the year and who killed them and all that kind of stuff. So I mean but with those like the forgotten beast like people always say DFS hard. Well the threats aren't liked. As soon as you kind of figure out like don't go near one with webs or don't go near one of gas like you can figure out the threats pretty easily and then design kind of a system around it and then just keep going.

00:13:16:18 - 00:13:34:27

But I find what most people lose their fortress to is one FBI death which like there's going to have too many dwarves running around or like too many items and you've got to get rid of those somehow or they just get bored says the dude with like 300 steps.

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I think there's like 15 hundred statues simply a lot. I wouldn't count them.

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I just you know that there's a lot ego in the stocks menu and just look and see it all still have a line for statues just don't whatever you do don't tap down the blocks because it'll freeze the game for 15 minutes because there's like a hundred thousand blocks used in it.

00:14:00:18 - 00:14:15:20

OK. So I was going over some notes before this and I was like when did I first hear about this. And I was going back over to the the Post and the baseball forums and I was like Oh that's right. This is the lunatic.

00:14:15:21 - 00:14:19:01

That was like I wanted to tame cave dragons.

00:14:22:06 - 00:14:34:15

Yes. I got to in cave dragons. Well that's sort of how it started to like when I started the fortress. You know I didn't really have in mind to do something so long and multigenerational it was kind of in the back of my head.

00:14:34:16 - 00:14:51:04

But when I started the fight like I had no plans for it and people always like to choose the name like no random just completely random arch Crystal I'm like you know be cool. Sounds a lot like glass should do something with glass and then a car really turned into that one.

00:14:51:05 - 00:15:23:23

Yeah it kind of cave dragon I think like in my first like five years or something I'm like I'd love to breed these and you know make them into war animals if they get to be the coolest thing. And then I looked on the weeki and it's like oh they don't mature till like year a thousand. So I was like oh well maybe if I do two hundred years they'll be a reasonable fighting force. And that's when I just said about it. I was like All right I'm going to train cave dragons caught my second one is a breeding pair 10 years later.

00:15:23:28 - 00:15:38:05

And then I basically just turtle the fort at a population of 30 to keep the frame rate up and it's like the FBI was like 60 which some people say is unplayable. And I laugh at them as I play on six

00:15:40:17 - 00:15:44:03

He does. I've seen it. But yeah. And then yeah.

00:15:44:03 - 00:16:02:18

Now I train them up and then every forgotten beast that came we killed was great about cave dragons like they're immune to fire. So if you have a flaming forgotten B.C. and just send them after and they'll finish them off really quickly. But yeah I know that that's actually how it started was with the cave dragons

00:16:04:05 - 00:16:39:18

and then you decide to colonize hell. Well yeah. Because I was building all this glass and I thought OK well I'd be cool if I built a glass tower on the on the surface and you know make clear in it just like it takes so long to make clearer glass like everything else in your fortress but clear glass is one of those things like like making soap and there's like 80 steps to do it. So what I would do is I would I'd set the manager up with like there's a manager and dwarf torches and you can give them like you know orders back then it was only orders of 30.

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So you had to give them like 250 orders of 30 and then I would set that up and then just leave the computer running all day or work

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Or all night while I was sleeping and then wake up and be like oh great I've got all this stuff now. And so by year I think it was like year two hundred and thirteen or something like that. I had all this glass and I'm like I don't really want to make something on the surface that's been done before. I'm like would it be cool if you have fought in hell but you could see everything like Dwarven babies were born in a hospital looking at the swirling demons of hell around them.

00:17:19:24 - 00:17:54:07

I thought that was great. I'm like I'm going to do it. I got cave dragons what could go wrong. And so I set up this trap for the demons and so it basically just dug down sacrifice the minor demons came up to you you can shoot things from beyond fortifications with impunity so long as you have that and archers like your finds you go and but like once we got down in there it was a slog. I almost I almost lost actually in the first maybe five minutes of the fight and then yeah no.

00:17:54:08 - 00:17:57:19

Then we just started building.

00:17:58:06 - 00:18:08:02

Now if you haven't seen what a clear glass fortress looks like into our forces it's a thing of beauty because it literally looks like the entire thing is made out of like adamantium.

00:18:08:14 - 00:18:24:09

Yeah the color especially in that I don't know if you're using the tiles that or if you're using that. Yeah. And so that the tiles that they mean it like it's like this light blue and it's like vibrant and it really hurts your eyes after a while.

00:18:24:09 - 00:18:59:29

So sometimes I'll just look away as I'm typing because right now I know all the commands like like I could I could type of you know an essay basically on a keyboard just using the commands and dwarf fortress. So for anyone concerned about using the UI you will just get used to it. You know that the previous story reminds me of that situation where you come upon a city and I mean in real life and you're just like what on earth would would make people build a city in this hellhole city of a million people and you're just like

00:19:00:10 - 00:19:10:11

Someone was like yeah this would be cool if we could do this and then you know 400 years later people have just always lived there and it's normal to be attacked by demons every day

00:19:11:25 - 00:19:37:00

Like the Phoenix of dwarf fortress. Well then I even got a crazier idea I was like well so I got this I got I had hell walled up with glass and started building in you know all the hallways and bedrooms and hell. And I'm like you know this needs this needs a tower straight from hell to the surface of clear glass so that sunlight can like go directly in it and we can farm bees on the bottom of how

00:19:39:29 - 00:19:55:26

They're helping build literally a logical idea that went through my brain at one point and I sat there I'm like you know am I crazy now and somebody else to come up with this. So I did and that took forever.

00:19:55:27 - 00:20:28:28

You know we had to basically we had to pour water on the magma see at the bottom and then dig down and you can only dig up through hills like molten barrier. So I had to dig up through that and dig down it is. And then the surface in the surface is in a it's an evil biome. So it's one of the most difficult biomes you can embark on. It's got these clouds of wicked suit that will like wander the map and turn your dwarves into like horrible zombies.

00:20:29:03 - 00:20:40:13

So we had to be really careful like building that up as the lots of dwarves died. But it seemed like everything just seemed like a great idea at the time. So that's what I did.

00:20:41:03 - 00:20:49:17

Oh so you just casually throw that out there. Oh yeah totally. And enable biome like that's totally just not even like your first like by probably

00:20:51:09 - 00:20:55:16

Thousands of dwarves died in the making of this castle but that's what makes a great.

00:20:56:23 - 00:21:04:04

Loss of life you look at their graves. They died peacefully in their sleep. Only some of them like eat their relatives.

00:21:04:04 - 00:21:09:19

That's right. Did you ever have like throat problems.

00:21:09:19 - 00:21:18:21

Because I hear that's one of the main killers fortresses. Well it's been one of the main killers of mine is I've got all these damn wear things that keep wandering in.

00:21:18:22 - 00:21:23:19

Yeah. That's one of those threats actually my third fortress I think died too.

00:21:24:09 - 00:21:55:05

Where's zebra or something ridiculous like that where he came in and I didn't know what it was at the time. And like he came in and bitten and so I got where is he. Everywhere is my all right. Well quit that one. But like once you know what you look up on the weekend go look OK if I get bit then you can quarantine them in the next full moon. You can just go kill them. It's one of those threats like once you've seen it. You can kind of plan around it but I mean if you don't know like those are hilarious ways to lose your focus.

00:21:55:23 - 00:22:19:19

I will agree because it's happened to me my first my first total fortress wipe was from a where lizard Yeah. It's like one of the little environs like pest lizards even not like a like a big lizard like just like a new toy or something like a gecko where gecko wandered into my fortress and built like six dudes big club and then wandered off

00:22:21:06 - 00:22:28:24

And then two fortresses after that. I had another run in with a where Buffalo and that one was a pain in the ass a step up

00:22:29:26 - 00:22:40:20

Right. But think about the where Buffalo is the same. It was the same dude that kept coming to my fortress to attack us as a where Buffalo. And it was like a four year old human trap. That

00:22:41:15 - 00:22:43:19

Is messed up because that's what you do.

00:22:45:04 - 00:23:08:20

And so eventually I figured out the whole like you know put him in the hospital you know wallop the hospital until you go until you know the full moon and see what happens. And if nobody turns you can let them out. But you know he obviously turned. So we left the where Buffalo into this little river and so he just lived there for the attorney for eternity.

00:23:08:24 - 00:23:59:24

And so yeah this is a game where or failure teaches you how to surmount its problems and some of the threats still surprise me like I think it was I think was like last year a year and a half ago and like I considered myself pretty much impervious to threats like you know they're all underground they're all fine. You know the demons are contains all the forgotten bees are dead and then the invasions were kind of a joke compared to my military but there is this instance that happened once and it's like one of my favorite stories come out of it where you know you get those clouds of wicked soot and occasionally they'll leave little piles of soot and likes dwarf fortress tracks everything so like if there's a little bit of dusting of it on a weapon and you stab the goblin that goblin will turn into a zombie because it's their tracks.

00:24:00:19 - 00:24:43:01

So I was playing again and then this one of my dwarfs turns into a zombie like way down below in the health fortress and like Okay that's weird. I mean there's no way he could have gotten anything on him or like you know gotten into a cloud. So I figured well it's just a one off. And then like five seconds later another one turned in like it's like All right well something's wrong. So I paused the game for like a good half an hour trying to investigate this. And the only thing I could tell you you know that link of them was they they both had squash seeds like behind when they die and so like when a dwarf eats a fruit or vegetable it'll leave a seed behind.

00:24:43:01 - 00:25:03:12

Right. And so like that's weird like we don't grow squashes like we farm in hell and there are mushrooms and there held mushrooms like there shouldn't be any squashes. What I virtually figured out was there was this human caravan that came in and like a case of the caravans will just like run straight into a cloud because they don't know that it's dangerous apparently and like

00:25:04:04 - 00:25:11:29

Run away they'll just go Oh what's that pretty blue cloud that's coming. That's. Why you're your insights now on your outsides.

00:25:13:04 - 00:25:59:29

So anyways they get turned and then drop all their stuff and I'm like Okay fine. They move on and they basically kill each other on the map and just you let that happen. OK. And what they didn't realize is that one of their bodies got into the fortress. You know before it died and it had like this bag of squashes and that bag squashes was now covered in Wicked soot from the dusting of the cloud. And sure enough I look it up in the stocks menu and I'm like OK I got you know 50 squashes in the Fortune somewhere and I look it up and they every single squash has a coating of wicked soot and like all right well that's I got to find out where these are look and like all of my military has taken a squashes a ration and put it in their back.

00:26:00:06 - 00:26:30:25

So now they're all walking time bombs ready to go off it anymore. It was it was the Oh my God. Everyone is going to die moment of my fortress and like I had had to dump everything remove all their equipment like it was a big mess but it was a great victory at the same time. Like I think the word Fortress is one of those games whereas if you can overcome problems like that. Like. The feeling of elation compared to any other game is amazing.

00:26:31:27 - 00:26:36:27

And that's the origin of squash. Exactly

00:26:40:18 - 00:27:13:25

Like yeah no this is a game where your ability to organize is really your crowning achievement as a gamer because just being able to execute the work necessary to accomplish a task is what's going to carry the day. And as you play through the game you subsequently learn more and more about all these different industries or all these different aspects of the game like stockpile management versus like you know your steel industry or God forbid you're even your glass.

00:27:13:28 - 00:27:15:15

Like I haven't even done glass.

00:27:15:22 - 00:27:20:23

It's so hard. It's. Like I know I know it is I got the soap and I was like

00:27:22:06 - 00:27:38:17

Well it's funny because you can use soap as a building material too. So you might my next fortress when this is going to be a tower. Of like Buffalo so or something ridiculous that better be underground. Got a light rain is going to destroy the fortress

00:27:40:24 - 00:27:50:03

Which would be equally hilarious. So I might just try it out for sure so why are we so clean.

00:27:50:14 - 00:27:55:10

Here's our desert fortress. Very good.

00:27:57:03 - 00:28:33:24

Yeah. No I mean the threats that you know you've run into the early game like I find like it's it's a barrier and it's it's really fun to get over those at first but then like a lot of people find that they get you know kind of bored around the 10 15 year mark if they overcome those threats. But like I find the game actually gets more interesting if you can outlast that and create that kind of history where like I can go back and name you all the kings of my fortress and like Zen buildings is probably the one you have right now and your save.

00:28:33:24 - 00:29:03:25

And like I know his personality. So I always found that dealing I know he's really against the war now and that's a turnaround because given the the latest memory patch that he's had where he saw a dead body and suddenly he doesn't like Warren anymore was a big thing against like my narrative because I write a story about it on page 12. So like I had to turn that around and I find all the surprises that you get after you run things for a long time is worth it.

00:29:03:25 - 00:29:17:08

So like I really encourage anyone to get into the games you know keep trying at it and you know eventually the the the nuances become interesting as opposed to like I said I'd like an information dump.

00:29:17:15 - 00:29:23:23

All right. Now we've reached that point in the blood cast where this is basically going to be you telling me how to be a player.

00:29:25:11 - 00:29:30:07

Well I mean like keep trying. Keep going. You

00:29:31:11 - 00:29:45:27

Know this is this is actually immediately relevant to a problem I'm having in my current fortress. How are you dealing with these personal inclinations of your dwarves. Because I've been going for like I don't know for years now. So not very long.

00:29:45:28 - 00:29:50:03

So how do we've got a deal. How do you turn your people into

00:29:52:18 - 00:29:57:23

This. Desire for happiness that they. Well hold on hold on.

00:29:58:03 - 00:30:25:20

I've gotten to the point now where I've got a reasonably well-trained army and they're well equipped with all skill stuff but I've just realized that they're all slightly going insane because apparently I have conscripted a whole bunch of dwarves that hate seeing death and the worst part of it now is they'll change their minds like they could be the steely is you know most disciplined dwarves and they could see their body and be like Yeah I think I'm a coward.

00:30:25:23 - 00:30:41:09

Now suddenly turn to the most stressed out thing ever. I was lucky and I totally exacerbated this entire scenario too because I had set up a bunch of cave traps in my lower reaches where it opens up a great caverns

00:30:42:21 - 00:30:48:14

And I just kept catching troglodytes like until I was getting a problem.

00:30:48:15 - 00:30:58:28

I was like I have too many troglodytes. So I started looking to fund solutions for dealing with troubled kids and so they see them die or

00:31:00:15 - 00:31:02:22

they get right off. Yeah I know. I

00:31:03:11 - 00:31:37:12

Know all about it and I was like well my military dwarves should be able to handle this. So I just started chasing them in a room across from the cages. And so they would the military would just come down like once a month and kill the three troglodytes chained up in that room and then we'd get rid of the bodies and bring em. And I was like eventually we're gonna work our way through the stock troglodytes. And then I was like Why do I have so many dwarves that are on the brink of total psychological collapse that I realize it's all my military dwarves and they're all going insane from slaughtering somebody you know you just push a couple of keys and like

00:31:37:24 - 00:31:52:22

Like oh red but to them you know they're probably going into these things that can talk and begging for mercy like you know I knew you were going to. If I knew you're going to be an elf love in fancy pants happy I wouldn't play

00:31:53:01 - 00:32:17:25

You. No I mean like it. I was lucky because I started my forgers in a previous version called Shorty 24. And there was no stress like they could do anything and just didn't know anything and it wasn't until like a year ago in the latest version I've updated I've been lucky because I've been able to update my fortress with the latest version every time but

00:32:18:10 - 00:32:37:02

As soon as I got to this like suddenly people are getting pissed off. So and like I got a lot of creature comforts in that fortress. You know. The statues if you look at some of the decorations like one large jam that somebody owns has over thirteen hundred different decorations on it and it's worth

00:32:38:17 - 00:32:57:02

A fortress in itself. I'll show you the link to the picture it's hilarious and it's like it's on a jam. Yeah I've seen it. It's like three pages of decorations or more. That's great. But you know that won't satisfy them. So what I did is I had a very very brutal fortress guard

00:32:57:18 - 00:33:28:15

So and I equipped them with like really harsh gauntlets of adamantium. And so if anybody committed a crime. So like you know a dwarf gets pissed off punches another dwarf the fortress guard would just kill them right away. So. The answer to the dwarves you know going insane is unfortunately they have to die. You can ship them out you can exile them which is a new thing. But. Yeah I know if you have stressed out dwarves now like there is not much you can do about it.

00:33:28:16 - 00:33:59:24

A They can give them meals you can give them the best kind of luxury resources. But it it's it's a version of the game that kind of needs to improve because what happens is used to have what you call tantrums files where people know and they were famous fortress killers and you know people loved reading about them. So there was a small selection of the dwarf which this community is like oh I want tantrums files back and the rest was like No no no no we don't need them. OK.

00:34:00:00 - 00:34:17:10

We'd like to play the game. And then so but he needed to fix something out of it because dwarves weren't getting stressed out at all. So it went from one pendulum side to the other where suddenly everybody was getting stressed out for no reason. So it's one of those things you just I have to

00:34:17:23 - 00:34:20:07

Accept in the development cycle which is fine

00:34:23:01 - 00:34:28:28

the middle manager saying stressed out for no reason. Meanwhile like living

00:34:31:04 - 00:34:33:03

in a glass National Forest

00:34:35:07 - 00:34:38:17

They don't really register that yet.

00:34:38:28 - 00:34:56:22

Turn that in. I'm sure they can figure it out and be stressed out. But yeah you're right. I mean I force them to live in hell on a clear fortress where you know. They can not only see hell outside but they can see everyone else in their bedrooms. I actually. Only kind of thought

00:34:58:22 - 00:35:04:20

There is no privacy in our fortress whatsoever.

00:35:04:21 - 00:35:09:14

Think about it. Where are you going Mom and Dad to our bedroom. Yeah I know

00:35:13:27 - 00:35:15:24

Oh that's fantastic.

00:35:15:24 - 00:35:28:24

You were mentioning that like it's a small select group that plays Dwarf Fortress. Do you run into people on the street that play it or like meet like outside of the gaming community. Do you ever hear it mentioned

00:35:30:17 - 00:35:32:15

No. Very rarely.

00:35:33:14 - 00:35:38:10

We've talked to the best the closest we've come is when we're we're

00:35:40:13 - 00:35:42:20

working in that space right. Right to speak.

00:35:42:21 - 00:35:50:00

So if we're at a convention wall encounter some a couple of people that are like Oh yeah yeah I've heard about that game like crazy.

00:35:50:07 - 00:35:55:10

Anybody who plays it is crazy. Oh yeah but none of them have ever played it.

00:35:55:12 - 00:36:00:07

Corner of like three or four people and I'm like No no it's it's it takes it takes though. Don't get me wrong.

00:36:00:07 - 00:36:03:19

It takes like 20 hours to figure it out but once you once you get there

00:36:05:05 - 00:36:21:08

it's not it's not a spoiler. Tell you what if I tell them that they will play. So I was at work and this was probably a year and a half ago and the tech guy came in to fix something and our computers in our office and he's in my office

00:36:21:21 - 00:36:41:17

And we start talking about video games and I mentioned like oh yeah I play I played dwarf fortress Have you heard of that. And he starts telling the story to tell me all about arch. You have you seen this fortress where he's like in hell and he's got this big blast force I'm sitting there trying not to smile.

00:36:42:15 - 00:36:52:01

Meanwhile I was your fifth time pulling it off on my computer at work like loading up the save on like a huh.

00:36:52:02 - 00:37:37:12

Well then what did you do. All that's crazy. Turning my monitor around to show him the fortress was like the best moment I've ever had with the game. The look on his face like I don't think I've seen a jaw drop more than that where he was just dumbfounded and then he wouldn't believe me. He's like oh no that you can't. That's not yours. I'm like No no no. Here a load the file where I've taken screenshots that nobody's seen for ever and I've dated them. But like I was the only time I've run into like somebody in the wild who a scene and what are the chances like you're you're reading about like this isn't Call of Duty or something that you would run into somebody who's played it and you ran into each other online.

00:37:37:13 - 00:37:49:00

He he read about a Dwarf Fortress fanfiction. It could be and then randomly met me at my work wall talking about it.

00:37:50:15 - 00:37:58:25

This is as if you played a Call of Duty game and killed the same dude 15 times in a row and nobody else killed him. And then. Like

00:37:59:07 - 00:38:07:15

On the street it's like that without looking to like he didn't hunt you down like you ran into you.

00:38:08:01 - 00:38:08:13

So yeah.

00:38:08:14 - 00:38:38:21

That that I mean that tells me too that dwarf fortress kind of has a bigger appeal as well than I think we give it credit for because of. I'll say it to people on. I don't know about it but I I'm curious to see how steam will and that was a question I asked on the discourse to him like you know how he gonna get this to a new audience just beyond putting it on Steam because I think for marketing like there's so much that can be done with it like just stories like these.

00:38:38:21 - 00:38:45:26

Well anything is Dark Souls got an audience cheered hard as shit you know. I mean the thing is it's like people are

00:38:46:05 - 00:39:16:12

This is going to grow but it's you know it's like a mold it grows on the north side of trees you know actually it inserts sort of percentage of the populace is a good example because if you start a Dark Souls origin and Demon's Souls that's a game that's fine with you against you. I like how you're trying to play it from the very beginning and then slowly as the iterations drop 1 to 3 it gets more refined as they go.

00:39:16:12 - 00:39:24:25

So that's an object lesson they have learned that a large part of the problem with the difficulty was not in fact the difficulty itself but the interface system right.

00:39:24:25 - 00:39:42:10

Right now I disagree. And so but unfortunately door fortresses as you know not even probably a 20th of the developer team that from software had for Demon's Souls. Yeah.

00:39:42:20 - 00:39:43:18

Right. Right.

00:39:43:18 - 00:39:59:27

Like I said to him like Manish if you get some money can you just hire some interns like you don't have to give them the source code like just get them to do kind of the crap that you don't want to do. I think that would be the best. Well for just get them to cure

00:40:00:03 - 00:40:01:10

Your house

00:40:04:03 - 00:40:10:26

know brush your teeth they'll they'll they'll do just you just focus entirely on the talking.

00:40:11:00 - 00:40:50:08

Yeah. No I think if Tarn can get some help and this is why again I go back to thinking that kit foxes is like probably the perfect partner for him if I can get some help like that game can be. So much more and it's already you know what museum is at the end it's in some museum. Yeah. Yeah. It's already a great game. But if you can if you can do more to it to bring it to that new audience like there is there's no there's no ceiling for this game as far as you know playability.

00:40:50:09 - 00:41:14:05

And like what it can do in that is because you have a developer who's super committed to it like Can you imagine any developer working on a videogame for however long it is 16 years now. Like it's I think that's unbelievable. I mean this comes from the guy who's worked on one fortress for five or four years now.

00:41:16:04 - 00:41:25:06

Well not only hasn't been that long it's been that long been paid entirely donation for a game that is otherwise free. Yeah.

00:41:25:06 - 00:41:36:03

And eat whatever I think gets him to a point where you know he has a steady income of money for that game is is his goal.

00:41:36:04 - 00:41:38:11

Just because two likes.

00:41:38:13 - 00:42:09:25

I mean that game he should be making money at it now. Like you work on something for 16 years and you're that good at it. Like I and I I hope nothing but the best for Zach and turn you know to make all the money they can but also not sell out you know. And I think they're scared of that too. Is that kind of thing all Well if we make it for money and we do this. We do that where we're selling out to kind of you know just making money. It's like no you need money to live.

00:42:09:28 - 00:42:34:24

So just you can make more of it. If people are happy with it. So again I I think that that argument that they're. You know I heard this from other people where they're saying oh I can't believe they're doing this. You know they said they'd never do it on Steam or like have releases like. A live you know like you're still going to run into you know like I'm really passionate about eating and like

00:42:35:01 - 00:42:44:15

Sleeping under a roof. So if they can do that in a more consistent way with their income I think it's it's all for the best.

00:42:46:12 - 00:42:50:19

And honestly this is an object lesson in American health care too.

00:42:50:20 - 00:43:04:10

Yeah I've heard I I'm in Canada as the entire pressure for the I'm in Canada so I mean this is this is all eye opening for me. I have we can tell we can tell.

00:43:04:23 - 00:43:07:04

No not really.

00:43:07:19 - 00:43:30:12

I'm not scared if I get the flu that I'm going to be broke for the next five years yeah. No I mean your health care system is absurd but it Hey. I die here on my ivory tower judging. But yeah I I don't know what what you would do if you had cancer there or something you know I guess you just declare bankruptcy I guess.

00:43:30:13 - 00:43:43:12

Well what. Well it's real simple it's real simple. You die. Yeah. I mean I mean ultimately that's the end result is is going to take you a little bit. A lot amount of time.

00:43:43:12 - 00:43:49:19

You're a first world country. Why don't you have. Subsidized healthcare.

00:43:49:21 - 00:43:56:19

Let's see well that wasn't one of the characteristics that came with that definition.

00:43:58:07 - 00:44:08:07

Honestly we're a first world country because we define first world ments because it literally means the US and our allies.

00:44:08:19 - 00:44:15:14

But out of all the industrialized country like American we're the only ones without some kind of health care system that's you know.

00:44:15:17 - 00:44:17:02

Yeah it's pretty much

00:44:18:19 - 00:44:19:24

yeah.

00:44:19:29 - 00:44:28:15

We both work in health care too. Here in the United States and we'll be the first ones to tell you that we've got problems.

00:44:28:15 - 00:44:59:24

And I'm amazed that they have been able to remain independent this long because in this country we tie health benefits directly to employment and not all employment either like it has to be decent like good employment to even qualify. And then you still have to pay a premium for it. I'm sure that they have something but like there's just no there's no fallback for that kind of thing. OK I'm going to steer

00:45:01:18 - 00:45:11:20

Towards this and very sadly two very interesting but let's get away from politics.

00:45:12:01 - 00:45:32:15

Those those things are true and now we're going to move on. Well I do want to say one more thing that you know it's it's not wrong to like Dwarf Fortress without playing it. I think you know just because there is so much material to to witness and then you know it's not necessarily have to

00:45:34:15 - 00:45:43:03

have to do all that work. I mean you know I'm not sure if it's ready for EA Sports per say but some of the stories you're describing are incredibly entertaining.

00:45:43:07 - 00:46:01:21

Well two of the things we have not mentioned about the whole door fortress coming the steam thing are very critical or very important for hitting its critical mass so to speak. The first one being Minecraft which is a direct inspiration from door fortress because you go a lot of them or in mining and

00:46:03:09 - 00:46:36:06

procedural generation elements from Tau fortress or that's where they came from literally. We know that but the second one and the bigger elephant in the room is RIM world because rim world is really a much more hyper focused more specific constrained version of the door fortress experience it's worker management it's labor definition it's of freedom to do crazy weird projects and things. And Titan has shown that that formula can be approachable and can work.

00:46:36:06 - 00:46:46:25

So while I do feel that RIM world is derivative I don't feel that derivative is the appropriate term but also it's definitely also very successful right.

00:46:46:25 - 00:46:54:16

Like and it's it's been on the air and surprisingly so and like to a lesser extent like you're saying like Minecraft.

00:46:54:16 - 00:47:12:00

I mean my son plays Minecraft loves everything about Minecraft and like he started how playing or fortress and when he was 5 and then when he got Minecraft it's like us is a better to our fortress I'm like No no no it's more accessible.

00:47:13:17 - 00:47:16:10

So it's not that I think well

00:47:16:24 - 00:47:37:03

The thing is RIM world is like halfway between Dwarf Fortress oxygen not included. I mean these are these are sort of our landmarks and it's fine because it's different enough that it is a different game. You know it's not a clone of the other one. You know it has different levels of accessibility and different levels of required commitment.

00:47:37:03 - 00:47:58:09

And so I think those have ever really shown that the genre the core honor of the core experience is ready like people are thirsty for it. And I think that the there's more room for it in the marketplace. So we need we need the grandfather of all this stuff back in like we need it. You don't you shouldn't have to look like.

00:47:58:19 - 00:48:13:19

Now I go there myself but you shouldn't have to go comb through a dozen forum pages to get the insoles you need to make the game right. One million. Yes accessible because that's just a sustaining technology like forums or terrible way to organize that.

00:48:13:23 - 00:48:17:02

It is clear that there is a market for it.

00:48:17:09 - 00:48:28:08

And I'm glad that they're doing a partnership with somebody else who's going to do marketing and all that stuff and they'll just absorb cash for the you know 16 years of work that they've already done.

00:48:28:11 - 00:48:58:19

So I'm totally comfortable yeah I mean and to be honest the way I got into Dwarf Fortress was by complete accident I was into you FTL I went that came out like 2012 2013. Yes I played a lot of that and I was showing my son a like YouTube. Let's play on it and he really liked it and so we're watching it together and then it you know like the same.

00:48:58:19 - 00:49:29:22

And I can't remember the name of the YouTube. But the same YouTube or had a Let's plant or fortress and it was like it was really popular and I'm like all that let's you know I can be. I remember watching it being like oh man i'm glad i'm watching somebody play in this game and not trying to play it myself. Because it just puts you up to like it looked impenetrable. But then once you try it. I mean like if you can kind of get into it after you know the controls and you just have to kind of commit to learning it and it's fine.

00:49:31:22 - 00:49:32:01

Yeah.

00:49:32:01 - 00:49:37:25

And the proof is really in the failure when you're good enough a door forgeries to fail at it that.

00:49:37:28 - 00:49:50:23

Yeah. And again like that elation for making soap for the first time. Or like. Getting a drawbridge getting it's real it's to work you know like for the first time.

00:49:51:06 - 00:50:30:15

I don't think you can. I think video games the whole you know they sometimes are a little too easy and they teach sometimes that you know almost like that instant gratification is like oh I leveled up and like I had to play for five minutes and you get that kind of dopamine rush and you're like great whereas Dwarf Fortress is the opposite of that. It'll take you a day to figure out how to make a wall but wait you do like that. That feeling of accomplishment in like I think what it teaches you especially as a kid playing it you know to kind of persevere and keep trying is one of the best parts of video games.

00:50:30:15 - 00:50:36:15

And I think like that's where its market can be too is that it can be one of those games

00:50:36:24 - 00:50:42:24

That you know not necessarily the easiest but we'll have the most gratification

00:50:45:08 - 00:51:04:19

so do you think one day they will have this in prisons to like teach felons long term thinking. Exactly. It's like there will be there only be this available ride a bike generate electricity to the bike.

00:51:07:21 - 00:51:10:16

You got to power this game somehow.

00:51:12:07 - 00:51:29:10

But honestly it's just like there's so much that can be learned from games. I mean we were talking about this back on the accident that included episode it was just like this. These are really good teaching tools for a lot of these things and play is the way that humans learn and somehow

00:51:29:23 - 00:51:59:00

After we were five we've we've lied to ourselves and said that that play is something that children do and it's like No no it's things that humans do to learn you know the experimentation and trying out different things and failing that's how we figure stuff out and it's full heart. Well I think like a lot of the gamers I've met like our pretty down to earth people don't you find when you get into a room with videogame players that there's almost

00:51:59:21 - 00:52:12:13

No there's a relaxation to it like you don't you don't have to really pretend to be anybody else. I find gamers you know not necessarily all of them but most of the ones I've met are in.

00:52:12:18 - 00:52:18:14

They just have sort of a mind about them that's more open to hearing different points of view.

00:52:18:15 - 00:52:22:24

I don't know what the exact word for it but like I can feel it when I talk to them

00:52:24:25 - 00:52:29:28

well they're more open to novelty because they have to be as. As a consequence of that point.

00:52:30:03 - 00:52:50:16

Yeah yeah they have to be able to look at a problem and to accept new information more readily because they're they're very concrete ability to resolve that problem immediately before them relies on that ability. Not saying they're all good at that but well you have a difference between

00:52:51:03 - 00:53:31:03

Competitive games versus like a dwarf fortress while not cooperative at least not competitive. And so you do get a little bit of an ego difference when you've got people that are you know say that oh well I'm good at this you know and I'm here to destroy you vs. Oh I made this you know a fortress Oh I made this other fortress and you know but when you can when you can talk together about a time that you had when this happened it's like you still can get some really good experiences and you know and this game is an amazing vehicle for emerging gameplay because things will happen that you will remember forever.

00:53:31:03 - 00:53:47:14

I had a fortress that had an artifact book show up and it was in the hands of an elf that came in in a group of goblins to Raider fortress and he used that book to kill my dwarves so I had to kill it and then I think it did it did.

00:53:47:15 - 00:54:06:21

And I think one of my dwarfs pick up and use it to kill him. So it had two kills on it and it was like this amateur romance novel and like that. That was a that's a thing. Well that's the thing that happened. Like people literally started over this book. Now. If. If a book has killed one person and then the person who killed it

00:54:10:04 - 00:54:19:24

Like that in this story. The book is it resulted in the deaths not from the battle but because they like to. Remove themselves from the tower because they couldn't be together like.

00:54:20:03 - 00:54:21:29

That. Is the book itself.

00:54:22:00 - 00:54:58:23

It's like the real thing is we haven't even touched on is the storytelling that comes out of it to like. There are lots of great Dwarf Fortress stories that are written down and like door forces is the only reason that I got back into sort of creative writing like I've written really ever since. You know putting the fortress online in 2015 I guess it was like I've written basically a whole book. That describes the narrative parts of all these characters that are in my fortress and like like it's not even you know mid way to the best.

00:54:58:23 - 00:55:03:02

Like there are some really good ones out there like room carnage

00:55:05:03 - 00:55:26:12

bashing gate. There are tons of great stories that are just come out of dwarf fortress that people just enjoy reading and I think you know having that kind of emerging storytelling you know make people want to get into more creative aspects of it is is one of the best things that comes out of that game.

00:55:28:15 - 00:55:29:09

Absolutely. And

00:55:29:09 - 00:56:00:23

And I think one of the real master work bits of game craft that go into this is that the gameplay aspect itself reinforces this so that you actually have these experiences as you learn to master the different elements of the game itself where you're like All right. I finally want to figure out how to make a master soap and in your your odyssey of learning how to master so you'll have so many crazy random things that will happen for you around soap that you'll really like.

00:56:00:23 - 00:56:09:27

I was thinking about the whole thing entirely wrong way. And it's just it's I remember lately having that moment with soap actually.

00:56:10:09 - 00:56:36:22

And being I know but it like the exact same thing and like it is a thing. It's also like a day I was like I got I got to master this and then I finally did and I was at a bar with a bunch of friends and I was all I wanted to talk about. But I couldn't because they would not understand it and to have more people get into a fortress. Maybe that will be a thing one day where you were like Hey man did you get soap today. Yeah

00:56:36:22 - 00:56:40:29

Yeah sure. Let's talk about it over beers that'd be great.

00:56:41:27 - 00:56:42:05

Yeah.

00:56:42:06 - 00:56:52:28

So honestly we've come back to the thing about the Steam version where we really want more people playing the games. We have more people to tell our stories to and they'll understand how cool it.

00:56:52:29 - 00:57:04:27

Yeah. Explain it to them. Well the thing is it's so hard that the people who have succeeded at it will compel others to learn how to do it because they want to do the hard things.

00:57:05:03 - 00:57:35:11

And it will cause more people to come into the game and there's so much room and runway for setting your own goals like I really want I don't know why I'm obsessed with this idea but I really want to domesticate cobras and to have a whole coffee bar like like just ranch. I want the Dwarven covered Bar Ranch and it's a thing I'm going to do one of these days but I haven't I haven't done it yet. So I'll just keep trying and eventually you'll get it. And that's

00:57:36:28 - 00:57:56:18

well obviously one of the reasons why is because like we're covered bars are found usually don't have good medals and I usually have another need in the hierarchy of things I need to learn how to do or master. And so I'm like well I could do that and there will probably be caviar bars there but I'm going to be lucky to get copper.

00:57:56:24 - 00:58:01:03

Do I really want to do that now. No I want me some seal.

00:58:01:04 - 00:58:07:08

I didn't have iron on my fortress either. So I just waited for invasions and then poured magma on them.

00:58:07:09 - 00:58:16:12

And that leaves all of the iron because it's magma proof and you just collect it and melted down in the steel. That's.

00:58:17:00 - 00:58:19:04

What we call problem solving.

00:58:20:23 - 00:58:27:04

Well on on that note I think we had better wrap this up. We'll have to have you back. I ask

00:58:27:07 - 00:58:34:09

Washburn that day December 3rd.

00:58:35:25 - 00:58:41:03

So. This has been fantastic and I I don't even really play the game

00:58:41:23 - 00:58:44:24

But I've loved hearing all these great stories.

00:58:44:24 - 00:58:59:21

Yeah I just I just want to say that when it was when it when it came to Oh here you have to study these spreadsheets and learn all this now and I was like No I have a job I'm running well I hate to inform you Jonathan but you will have to learn how to play this game.

00:58:59:22 - 00:59:01:19

Oh I know it's coming out on Steam.

00:59:01:23 - 00:59:07:02

Well yes. Nothing else you'll gift it to me and then I'll feel obligated with the steam release.

00:59:07:02 - 00:59:19:00

I think we should work on how to play the game. And one of the things I think we should do to make it organic is have me explain how to play to someone who has never played before. Yeah. You. This. Will be

00:59:19:09 - 00:59:23:07

Will be more of our our bonus.

00:59:23:14 - 00:59:27:28

There's tons of great youtube videos like you know Craig Kurtzman. There are.

00:59:27:28 - 00:59:46:01

Last year has been the best. Like he is the diamond standard for. For you to play 3s on the game. And in his storytelling is is inventive. But like I eat I remember searching for dwarf fortress tutorials and I think I got like over 100 hits. So they're out there.

00:59:46:08 - 00:59:51:09

Man Well it'll come we'll get there just and we'll.

00:59:51:09 - 00:59:58:15

We'll have to have you on again and I'll recount some of my being and I'll still be running the same.

00:59:59:24 - 01:00:01:26

All right. Thanks guys.

01:00:01:27 - 01:00:12:28

We'll be sure to put links on the show notes to your forum posts. That recount the the the storied history of our crystal.

01:00:13:02 - 01:00:34:13

Where where should people look for primarily to find a find here. Your was on Bay 12 forums right now. I mean you can you can google Art's Crystal dwarf fortress and it's probably the first thing that'll come up but I'll have a PDA of the entire story thus far because people have asked me for it. It's almost done and should be done by the end of this week. And then I'll post that.

01:00:34:15 - 01:00:45:09

So yeah. Look on eBay twelves and then we'll get a link to it on the. In the old show notes. But but thanks again for coming on senators day.

01:00:47:15 - 01:01:19:02

Yes indeed indeed. And thank you. Thank you Morgan for the music. We appreciate it. And thanks for Gustin for the editing. We've definitely put you through the paces on this one but you can find us at octopus Park dot com or literate gamer dot com. And we do have that exclusive picture on content on there for our. Backers. And. We're actually using the discord to tell you what games are playing. If you're interested in jumping at a party with us whatever it is.

01:01:19:03 - 01:01:27:24

So that's that's a thing now cool stuff. All right. Thanks again for coming on David. It was really fantastic. We will definitely have to have you on again if you're up for it.

01:01:28:27 - 01:01:33:07

Oh absolutely. Thanks for the invite guys I really had a good time all right.

01:01:33:08 - 01:01:34:01

Great stuff.

01:01:34:01 - 01:01:34:22

Good night everybody.

01:01:47:17 - 01:01:47:21