

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (JonBenet's Pageants)



0022

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just momentary. I

16 remember -- remember laying the little red

17 jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board,

18 because it had a few spots on it, so I was

19 thinking when I came back from the lake I was

20 going to take that to the dry cleaners, and

21 decided to lay that under there somewhere.

22 TOM HANEY: Was that -- it wasn't

23 something you were going to take to the lake?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, it was

25 something she had worn for a Christmas



0023

1 performance. It was a little Christmas thing.

2 TOM HANEY: When had she worn that?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: She had worn it --

4 well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls

5 performed together in a group, some Christmas

6 songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she

7 wore it for that.



(SNIP)



0087

20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything in

21 this prior behavior that looking back now seems

22 unusual?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Priscilla was

24 never crazy about me doing this whole pageant

25 with JonBenet, she thought that was just totally



0088

1 unnecessary, because she said you know, it's

2 just not the thing to do. Well, you know, I had

3 grown up doing it, I enjoyed it, I had a lot of

4 friends who had done it. I had very good

5 experience with it. So that's what I brought to

6 the table. My daughter was a performer, she was

7 beautiful, she was outgoing, and flourished in

8 that type of an environment. Daphne was not.

9 You know.

10 So Priscilla would oftentimes say

11 to me, you know, you just, you shouldn't do

12 that, you know, that's not a good thing to

13 happen.

14 I thought, you know, well, you

15 raise your children the way you do and we don't

16 all raise our children the same. So you know,

17 kind of looking back at that and think, you

18 know, did that really get to her or something.

19 I don't know (INAUDIBLE).



(SNIP)



0145

18 THOMAS HANEY: How about John with

19 JonBenet, did they do any special things

20 together? Is there anything that she liked dad

21 to take her to do?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she loved her

23 dad to be around all the time. You know, she

24 liked John to carry her up on his shoulders.

25 And they liked to bike-ride. And he went to the



0146

1 pageants. She was always real proud that he was

2 in hardware as she called it, her -- trophy

3 winnings, medals, whatnot.

4 THOMAS HANEY: So he managed to get

5 to quite a few of those or most orall?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

7 THOMAS HANEY: Because from what

8 little I understand, it's kind of off-limits for

9 guys, but not -- not a lot of guys there?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: There are a lot of

11 fathers there, brothers.

12 THOMAS HANEY: Really?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, brothers,

14 sisters.



(SNIP)



0182

4 THOMAS HANEY: Was JonBenet taking

5 tap lessons at or about this time?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I believe she

7 was.

8 THOMAS HANEY: Where was she taking

9 them?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Boulder Rec Center.

11 THOMAS HANEY: How often?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Once a week.

13 THOMAS HANEY: Was this part of

14 their -- the Rec Center program, or was it some

15 private person came in?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was a Rec

17 Center program.

18 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, so it would

19 have been one of the staff, the instructor would

20 have been?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

22 THOMAS HANEY: Do you know who that

23 person was?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: It was Joseph

25 Beaucage.



0183

1 TRIP DeMUTH: Say again?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Joseph Beaucage.

3 THOMAS HANEY: How many kids were

4 in that group?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: About six or eight.

6 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, pretty small

7 group?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)

9 THOMAS HANEY: I think you said it

10 was once a week?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

12 THOMAS HANEY: How long had she

13 been going to that?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it started

15 in the fall and they were getting ready for a --

16 you know, had this community dance recital in

17 March, I think.

18 THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever go to

19 the practices, hang around, or were they open to

20 the parents or --

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, you mean the

22 lessons?

23 THOMAS HANEY: Yes.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: We were allowed to

25 stay outside there.



0184

1 THOMAS HANEY: And visit with other

2 parents?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

4 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. During those

5 lessons, anything unusual with any of the

6 parents there?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean Pinky

8 Barber had her daughter in it, and Gwen Habley

9 (phonetic) was in it and (INAUDIBLE name).

10 And Burke, I had found -- Burke

11 would always go and kind of be hanging out. So

12 I had asked around and found a -- this old guy

13 that taught basketball lessons. So while

14 JonBenet was in there doing tap dancing class,

15 this fellow would work for Burke -- the gym

16 there, 45 minutes.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: What was his name?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Basketball.

19 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me throw a name

20 out there for you. Howard Berkes (phonetic)

21 sound right, or do you know a Howard Berkes?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Howard, I believe it

23 was Howard.

24 TRIP DeMUTH: How did you find him?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I think I was



0185

1 sitting there talking with Pinky Barber on the

2 little benches there, outside the classroom, and

3 said, you know, boy, I wish I could find

4 somebody like a high school kid or somebody that

5 would teach -- work with Burke on basketball a

6 little bit. And if I remember, there was this

7 guy on a ladder that was changing light bulbs at

8 the Rec Center, said, "I overheard you." He

9 said, "I have a buddy that used to coach

10 basketball." And -- am I talking too much?

11 VOICE: Tom was five minutes ahead

12 of me on the first one actually. (INAUDIBLE.)

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Anyway, this

14 guy said, I met this guy, so he --

15 TRIP DeMUTH: Howard?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe his name

17 was. Old guy, I think kind of (INAUDIBLE).

18 Loved basketball. Loved to teach kids.

19 (Movement in the room made

20 videotape inaudible.)



(SNIP)



0216

24 THOMAS HANEY: We touched briefly

25 yesterday on the pageant that JonBenet was in,



0217

1 we talked about the possibility of some parent.

2 Could you talk to us a little bit about how

3 these pageants were set up, how -- what kind of

4 security, if any. You know, how much -- start

5 with how were they publicized? I mean, is it a

6 preset group of people that's involved?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Very small. It's

8 open to anyone, but they don't have a tremendous

9 number of recipients. The first way I learned

10 about it was seeing it listed in Colorado, was

11 through a makeup artist in Denver where I was

12 having my makeup done for a Boulder publication

13 and we were talking about our children. She had

14 two girls and they did the pageants. I said oh,

15 you know, where are they, do you know where they

16 are?

17 And so she told me about her

18 experiences with them. She said she would call

19 or give me the name of someone who did a couple

20 of them. So I subsequently called -- I think

21 the first one I called was -- I can't remember

22 the name. Anyway, there were two different

23 ones. And they had events coming up in the next

24 month or so. So I kind of inquired about it,

25 and went down and entered.



0218

1 THOMAS HANEY: And when would that

2 have been, the first one?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Like spring or --

4 spring of -- spring, spring of '95 or '7? I

5 don't remember.

6 THOMAS HANEY: So you have been

7 involved for about a year and a half then?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

9 THOMAS HANEY: That's great. So

10 help me, did they have like a national

11 organization that has like an umbrella over

12 everything?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right, this

14 was -- they have a national group, and they

15 would have these local events.

16 THOMAS HANEY: Qualifying or

17 something?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: In a hotel, you

19 know, in a hotel and they would have staging,

20 you know, dressing rooms and all that kind of

21 stuff. And they had different categories, where

22 you could choose to enter whichever categories

23 you would like. You know -- mostly modeling and

24 the reason we did it was because we did the ones

25 that would have talent, like singing, that kind



0219

1 of thing.

2 So then for these, like they have a

3 western category and all the girls would wear

4 like a cute western outfit. And they have

5 sportswear and that would be kind of a dress --

6 you know, so they had these little categories.

7 And they were by age group. JonBenet was in the

8 4-to-6-year-old age group. And 10-to-12. So

9 they weren't competing with anybody much older

10 than they. And you kind of just do that all

11 afternoon, and at the conclusion of the day,

12 they would announce winners in various

13 categories. One of the categories was

14 photography, you know, the portfolios. You

15 know.

16 THOMAS HANEY: Was there like

17 national, local publications, newsletters,

18 things like that that --

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I think they, if you

20 went to one and they got your name, then they

21 would mail you, they always had another next

22 November or whatever.

23 THOMAS HANEY: Had there been any

24 particular newsletter, publication, with a photo

25 or a story about JonBenet that would have been



0220

1 circulated?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dear. Actually

3 I think one of 'em, I think the American Kids or

4 Royal (INAUDIBLE) had done a brochure and put

5 different kids' pictures on, you know, each time

6 they would announce another event. I think

7 because she had been a winner, her picture was

8 on one of those. That would have gone to -- I

9 mean, I imagine that it just went to people who

10 had previously attended, you know.

11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Did it give

12 other information about her, just kind of

13 4-to-6?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, right.

15 THOMAS HANEY: Did they, when one

16 of these pageants was held, was there a program

17 that was made up with photos?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

19 THOMAS HANEY: Vital information,

20 name, address?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think it

22 had the address. It would just have their

23 names. You know like here are the 4-to-6

24 contestants, JonBenet, Susie, blah, blah, blah,

25 blah.

.