Jason grew up in Amish Country but was raised in the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This story has cars hidden in the woods for a getaway, living on boats, time spent in rehab, a JW group of “lost boys” that were dealing drugs, just your average story of leaving a cult. You can see that Jason is an explorer, a person driven to learn and try new things, and how stifling it would be growing up in a cult where that is discouraged. He made mistakes after leaving the cult and wants to help others to avoid doing the same. In fact, he’s written a book about his experiences that goes into greater depth than we can do here. You can find his book entitled “Worldly – How NOT To Escape A Cult” on Amazon HERE.

The song that Jason chose to represent his journey is Green Day – When I Come Around, a song that was the first he listened to that sparked an interest in secular music and that led to a short punk career.

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Music by Fair Voyeur entitled “No Hell Yet”.

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Jason is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3 [00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. I told you that I had some bonus episodes coming out. And this is the first I was able to interview JASON TOWNSEND And when I set up the interview I didn’t even know that he had a book coming out at the same time. So it was kind of a surprise to me and I wanted to get this one out to go ahead and consult coincide with the book release. So let’s go ahead learn a little bit about Jason and then I’ll tell you more about his book After the interview. My name’s Jason Townsend I’m 34 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I’m shunned. All right Jason so then how did you come to be a witness in the first place. I was born into it. My dad is an elder in Lancaster Pennsylvania. It’s kind of where near where jackass is filmed. We lived in Amish country. So religion marries as thick as molasses. Yes I thought we were normal compared to the Amish. Not really. Yeah that’s interesting. I assume you ran into a lot of Amish people when you were out in your door to door ministry work. Yeah yeah. We would actually try to you know speak to the Amish. They were they were never very responsive. I don’t think it was back. I don’t think there was ever an person that had even come to a meeting. But we tried anyway. [00:02:11] Yeah that’s interesting I was you know we never had anything quite like that in our territory. I always wonder you know how people fare when they’re trying to talk to people that you know have such staunch religious beliefs in their own community and all that that’s so insular. I always wondered how how witnesses would fare trying to get anybody out of that charge to offer them electricity. Yeah. Yeah yeah. They’re so certain in their ways it’s but then you know I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses are exactly the same as the Amish. So it’s both very stubborn. And basically when you approach the Amish they make a lot of time just pretend they don’t speak English. Oh really. Yeah that’s that’s actually a trick that maybe a lot of people out there listening might want to come to their door. You understand the little German that you can yell YEAH YOU. All right so then so you know that’s an interesting place to be raised as a witness so you know how did your how did your parents come to be witnesses you mentioned your dad was an elder. You know how far does this go back in your family. OK. Ellen my great grandfather Max he was actually a Swiss inventor in Zurich Switzerland and he had a son who went in to World War Two. He got he came back with PTSD really bad. So when he answered the door he was ready. He needed something. He was suffering from everything he had seen in World War 2. So he was an easy convert to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So consequently my mom was born into it. My dad’s mom. [00:04:10] She answered the door and she had an abusive husband. Yeah. My grandpa was was nuts. He joined up so like my grandmother she needed something really bad his her home life wasn’t. So she joined up and then consequently my dad who is the oldest of eight. He was he was Jehovah’s Witness since he was about like 13 I think and he really took a liking to that. So my time trickled down to me. That’s all I knew from birth to very staunch parents and where your grandparents still in their religion and around at that time or if you had that extra influence. What’s kind of weird is yeah I know my grandfather on my dad’s side the one who was an alcoholic cause he died young. I mean I think I was like 10 so pretty much all of my influences were heavy Jehovah’s Witnesses my mom my mom’s dad he ended up being an elder and they were all pretty hardcore that include like do you have like cousins and uncles and aunts that were in the in the quote truth you know back then as well. Yeah yeah. The only ones I was allowed to know were Jehovah’s Witnesses. I like it said my dad my dad’s. He’s one of the eight. So there is actually he has several brothers I hardly know. Even though I see them I’ve seen them around when I go to my grandmother’s house. They have like a giant mechanic’s garage in Pennsylvania and it’s a pretty popular place. And they all work there except for my dad. [00:06:11] So it was just weird when I visit my grandma I’d see them walking around and you know my parents be like you know don’t talk to them. The most friendly uncle they would walk around look like a friendly guy wanted to talk to. He had gotten a divorce. So he was like the devil and I was allowed to talk to him which can suck. So I wrote about half of my aunts uncles and cousins that I don’t know because they weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yeah. It’s amazing how that works and how isolated you end up even in your own family. So then you know you you do have quite a few people surrounding you still you know even though there are others who you’re not allowed to talk to who are witnesses what what did it mean to you back then you know as a young person being raised in the religion. Was it something you love there or did you kind of feel strange about it all. Yeah. I was I was a really curious kid like a curiosity. It’s got me into trouble and it’s also the thing that has led me to learn everything I know. And I was a little kid I was a eager little kid who just loved people and I love being part of something. And I was I was into it. You know I wanted to be the best witness when I was a kid. Yeah. Did you. Did you have siblings or were you the oldest known the middle child. I have. Yeah I have an older brother who’s like 14 years older me who I actually didn’t know he had gotten kicked out when I was like. [00:07:55] As soon as he turned 18 he went to senior week and that was the last straw for my parents and I just remember a fistfight in the doorway. I didn’t see my brother again for me. I basically still don’t know him. And I have. And I have a little sister who’s 2 years younger than me. And slowly but surely my parents are pretty much kicked out or pretty much everyone their kids. So yeah they there they have a way of driving people away. So then you’re you’re wanting to be this uber Dubb you know here you’re wanting to do this you can be. What was the way you know how did you see the world then you know growing up. I was terrified of it. They basically had me trained to hear the word world as a curse word. You know the world is a scary place. You know they kind of define the word worldly as like a slave to corruption an unbeliever outside of Jehovah’s one true religion the truth. So I came home from public school with news that I’d made a friend I’d immediately be corrected. You know my dad would say no you didn’t make a friend. You made an acquaintance. Yeah. So I had to keep conversations at school about school or use it as a preaching opportunity. Yeah. Your own private little territory as you. That’s like us sending us to school was infiltrating. Yeah yeah. We had a captive audience and they had to listen to us. Yeah man this is so miserable. It sucks. Yeah. So then how did you how did you fare. [00:09:57] You know let’s let’s talk about school. How do you fare in school as a young witness. I was an outcast. I mean I loved actually being at school in elementary school. You know the holidays were still celebrated in public school and I guess it was early 90s late 80s and in elementary school. I’d go in at the beginning of the year and my mom would make this big Ziploc bag full of little snacks and she’d give it to the teacher. So during holiday parties pretty much any party they had. I wasn’t allowed to participate. And for one reason or another. So I was sent out to the hallway to eat my little snack alone during these parties. I didn’t salute the flag. I wasn’t really supposed to be too friendly or body up you know like we talked about any schoolmates. So it wasn’t hard enough I stuck out like a sore thumb and then sometimes the beginning of the year my mom would come into the class and explain why I was so weird to everyone which just made it even worse. Yeah. Then you go out ministry and sometimes you bump into one. So that was also fun. Wow I’m trying to think like the whole SMAC thing like I’m trying to think is that a kind thing she did and that you know she at least wanted you to be able to have something special. What are you sitting out in the hall or. Yeah. Is it kind of sad because you were deprived like maybe you could have sat in the hall but had some of the snacks that the other kids had. No. [00:11:41] Yeah. Maybe maybe she looked at it like a cat and they want to touch that act out of you. You felt this way too. But yeah you know like I can’t actually even thought of the food as being evil like I would even take a bite of a birthday cake because it’s got Satan in it. Oh yeah. Yeah. You might go off and behead someone if you if you like of the birthday cake. Right. My mom was a really loving person. We had a as long as everyone felt like we had a very tight family. And yet I think she was really it was a gesture of love. Yeah yeah. It sounds like she was trying to to acknowledge your feelings and that you know at least if you’re gonna stay out in the hallway you know you should have something that makes you feel special. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. I was her special boy but like a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses she was just clueless as to how that actually made me look in reality. Sure my back. Yeah yeah for sure. So then what about at home. You know how is your life at home. You know speaking of your mom and your dad your how is your life growing up as a child at home. Back at home we studied for church almost a year. The meetings almost constantly. And just a little bit for school. Secular Education was very secondary. We had material we had to study for meetings. There were three meetings per week. [00:13:15] At that time at least one at least one day and field service as a bare minimum. So I was a really busy kid you know my dad was an elder. Even when we were studying for the meetings at home we had a really think about our answers to the material. It wasn’t just you know like yes or no we had to go in depth know because there’s this kind of competition you know at the meetings. There’s this whole like framework that exists in the Jehovah’s Witness system that other people don’t think about too much and that it goes into like how good your answers are at meetings you how people decide how good of a Jehovah’s Witness you are based on how deep you go into your answer. So so we we always try to be the best you know get the best answers. So it took a lot of study and I wanted to study for school. But we spent like 90 percent of our time studying religious materials so I was just constantly busy when I was at home. Yeah you know. Two things that you said that struck me and one is you said you had three meetings back then. But what I always found interesting and it just popped into my head. You know we would always say well the organization would always promote how awesome it was that they had five meetings a week because you know Thursday was technically even though it was one meeting you were going to it was broken up into two parts and they called those meetings Theocratic Ministry School. And the service made. Right. [00:15:02] And then on Sunday you had the public meeting the public talk and the Watchtower study. And I thought Oh yeah it just struck me how you know I would always say we have three meetings a week. You just said we had three meetings a week. But the society the Watchtower Society would always say we have five meetings a week. And you can see how we can make it sound more psycho. Yeah yeah. You can see how even even the way that they count the number of meetings they have is to try to make it sound more than it does. It’s just it just struck me as you said that it was something I always wondered about when I was a kid. I was like why do we why do we say we have five meetings. I mean we go to the Keenum Hall three times a week. You know each time is a meeting. We are meeting each time we go. But somehow I guess they acted like we left and came back for the second part. It’s really weird like they don’t say we have. I just think for their regional conventions they call them now they don’t say like they’ll say we have three days of conventions but they don’t say we have like you know I don’t know how many parts individual parts there are at a convention. They don’t think we. We have four to eight conventions every week you know. [00:16:20] You know I think one of the lawyers in Bethel came up with that kind of struck me as strange and then also just the fact that you were talking about how how at the meetings it wasn’t just because we were all we were all being judged on you know not just where are we paying attention but why are we commenting and raising our hands and participating. But then it even went a step farther like you said and it’s how good are your comments. Do you right. Do they show that you are fully like accepting the brainwashing and taking it within yourself so that you can say it in your own words and you have an even maybe go beyond what they’re saying. It’s just amazing how we were basically lauded for self brainwashing. Yeah. You know even though down to the way we dressed. Yes. You know the kids that that didn’t dress quite right. They were kind of assumed not to be very zealous wherever. So as an elder’s kid. Any any clue David anyone in the congregation that might be a bad influence I couldn’t even talk to. So I stuck out an extra Sawka so I’m guessing you had somewhere. So you know there were the brothers who wore the full suits you know with Mat pants and jacket. And then there were the brothers who wore the you know they would come in with khakis and a sport coat or whatever. And they were looked at differently than the brothers who wore the full suit that was matchy matchy. So you know. Yeah. You had to one up each other there too. I know I got involved in the. I can’t peacocks you know that’s the way you can express yourself as a young person. [00:18:11] You’re you’re meeting cause you know you might dress like a golfer and ordinary life but they got you know the nicest suit and tie to wear a meeting. I wanted to be like one of the khaki kids. I kind of like get mired down. Yeah me too. But I had it. Yes. Oh yeah. If you’re going to give a part on a convention you have to wear a full suit you can’t wear the khakis and jacket. Oh you get booed off the stage. Yeah yeah. They won’t even let you up there if you if you’re not matchy like that. Yeah yeah. Definitely been there done that. Yeah I had a buy. I remember I was one time I was going to be on a convention and I didn’t own a suit. We were pretty poor. And I remember I had to go out and buy a suit so that I could give my PA on the convention because they wouldn’t let me up if yeah yeah didn’t look the best and it just shows so much of it is about appearance as we’ve been discussing already. So how did you feel you know in these in these different settings you know at home school and church or the Keenum Hall you know how I know you mentioned at school you know you felt somewhat like an outcast. But what about at home and in the Keenum Hall. What were your feelings as a kid. In the Kingdom Hall I was a really enthusiastic kid. I was eager to take on responsibility. I like to please so I wanted to be the most righteous kid in the whole congregation. [00:19:48] So as an elders kid I was like a superpower and I actually alienated myself without knowing it to the kids in my own congregation. They were scared of my zeal or they were just jealous and they wanted outranked me. I was like a dumb little puppy. Add too much energy. I loved everyone but I got smacked on the nose most of the time from my dad. The other elders loved me. My dad always pushed me to do more. And frankly I think my energy just annoy the hell out of him. But my parents loved me in the years when I lapped up all the spiritual crap shoveled out me and I played by the rules at school. I did at his fellow Guardian belong there. But it was it was also the thing I was most curious about. Being at school and and just learning about the world it was like a giant elephant in our family room. I know a lot of energy and curiosity. And I was encouraged to farm the curiosity for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But anything regarding world the world or school and I really love science and computers computers were just starting to become a thing. That was all that was stifled pretty heavily. Yes I can I can only imagine. I mean it sounds like your dad was pretty hardcore Yeah. He does. Borderline abusive sometimes so yeah. Preach they kind of raised us in the truth with an iron fist you know. So I mean you already mentioned something about your brother. Oh yeah. You know so you know it sounds like things were pretty heavy handed. Yeah yeah absolutely. I mean I still even I forgot. [00:21:55] I forgot about just a few minutes. I actually know more about the guy down gas station than I do my brother. Well then how did how did things go. You know presumably you know I assume you got baptized at some point. How did things go as you started to get older and and you know go into your teenager years and young adulthood. Yeah. OK so at 12 I got baptized and I was working on being a ministerial servant auxiliary pioneer whenever I could. As I got into my teenage years and had puberty started here that’s when things got really difficult for me. So you know as a teen you feel more pressure to find your pack find your place to fit in. And I did. I didn’t have any good friends in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You know because what I said before I said I was so hard core most kids were scared of me or I was allowed to have friends at school. And the older I got the more I wanted to be social. And I like to kids at school. I was curious about because I didn’t know much about them even though it’s shoulder to shoulder with them every day. So I would sneak friendships and of course I like girls. I like them a lot. It was almost weird how much I like girls that there is girls were like called a house and my mom would scream because you know we had recorded phone that was leashed to the wall. [00:23:38] There was a few of them around the house and I were like brought home a cordless phone one time and hung it on the wall. Within like an hour my dad had taken it down thrown in the trash bin and put the cord one back up so we’d be left to the. Let’s hit it. Yeah. So anyway as soon as girls would call my mom we’d pick up and tell them you know this is not what we want for our son. Don’t call your. Which made it. I go back to school blowdown my neighbor my closest neighbour we lived out in the woods kind of in the middle of nowhere. But my closest neighbor was a Jehovah’s Witness. My parents had bought our acre of land from another job as a witness so that the path of least resistance would lead right to another job as witness front door. It was like a year old maybe we are gone through puberty together and we ordered a playboy and we got caught. He actually told on himself that ended up being this huge thing and the shame that everybody carry is where they fall on themselves. Oh yeah I mean and it turns out you know from me from just going through puberty you get to just some of things I put together later I it turns out he’s totally repressed homosexual. He’s still on the religion so he’s probably still not out the closet but I just feel bad for him he’s pretending to be somebody else and in my teenage years my parents were starting to catch me and punish me right left like every day for trying to sneak a look at girls or doing something you know going through the Sears catalog. [00:25:15] Get the brass section and stuff it trying to talk to worldly kids and so they were tightening the leash. I mean I couldn’t do anything. Yeah I mean that the tighter they they they pull in that leash. I mean then the more any little thing that you do is going to be stimulating whether it’s you know seeing the bra section of the serious catalog and just trying to even look at a girl or whatever like yeah you know the more you you forbid something the more enticing it becomes oftentimes in life. And it sounds like wow they were they were just so tough on you. Yeah I have to ask you were you were baptized that’s 12. Why did you get baptized or what. If you think back you know did you feel pressure or did you. Were you just into it that much. Or you know kind of a do you know what was behind it I was find that interesting. Seemed like I got the pressure but I know I do remember just this little thing like when I went to get baptized my dad kind of gave the prerequisite of like you know we’re not pushing you to do this. But I mean everything my whole life I’m still this way anything I want to do I’m going to do balls into a wall and I just wanted to be you know one of the first kids in my peer group to get baptized in. At the time I really really believed it. And I got baptized for the right reasons. But like you said that the tighter they yanked the harder I pulled away. Yes. [00:27:11] It goes back to that I think I talked about it in and podcast the state of your life but it goes back to that illustration. They would always use of the spring and how a child was like a spring in and you compressed this spring. And if you let go of the spring too fast then you know the child will just bounce everywhere and go wild. But if you slowly release the pressure on that spring you can control the direction that it goes. And my question which I’ve mentioned on the podcast was Why do you have to crush the spring in the first place right. Right. And that’s what they were doing to you they were absolutely crushing you from every angle it seems like. Yeah. That’s funny you said that. I wrote my book about it and I described it as as a rubber band. So like a scene you know I kind of snapped and I just fell right to the ground. And all this kinetic just wasted. Yeah yeah that that makes a lot of sense. I mean you know both illustrations are so accurate. You know I mean I can I can totally see you know that rubber band that holds so much energy. But you know you can only pull on it for so long before it’s going to break. Yeah and once it does it’s useless. I mean it’s just the first nothing much you can do at that you’ve you know broken broken it pretty badly. So so how did that go for you then. [00:28:43] You know as far as you know being this rubber band let’s say and you know being having them pulling on you so tightly as you you know progressed in your young adulthood. How did things transpire. Yeah it was a pretty dramatic snap so I know like I said I was baptized when I was 12 and by the time I’ve been working since I was 15 just to get out the house I was starting to feel the byproduct of them encouraging me to study all the time was when I started to read about how about the other religions I forget which book it is now been out for almost 20 years but mankind’s search for God brother. There you go. Yeah. Well I didn’t understand was why I had to read their description of this religion. Yes. And yeah I started to kind of look outside I sneak to the library at school and I I start to fight to find loopholes in it. A lot of loopholes that I thought were there when I’m talking like 14 15 years old. They were just like a feeling it was just a bad feeling I had and I really loved everybody. And I just wanted to learn more about those things. So I guess I was working since I was 15 and I had a little bit of money saved up and I bought a car as soon as I turned 16. My parents didn’t know about it. I hid it in our woods. And I started kind of covertly dating this this Catholic girl at school. So yeah like at 16 shoot she was white. The first love of my life. And I’d sneak over there. They know it. [00:30:41] They knew I had a job at a hardware store and they kind of they didn’t like it. They did not like that I had a job. I just kind of insisted on it. So my dad would follow me around town. I didn’t know it but he was he was talented and I got caught having dinner at the Catholic girls house. My dad he said he was following me around and he basically ripped me out of their house. I think he just walked right in and it was a huge thing like grab me by the back of a shirt. And they were all freaked out. And he’s like this is not work. This isn’t what I want for our son. You know you have no idea. He’s like you know he kind of tried to apologize a little bit like I know you guys on dad but he does. I mean this family is this Catholic family. I was at I mean to this day. They’re pretty much the model example of what a good family should look like an yeah. It didn’t make any sense to me that my dad was yanking me out of there. And pretty that’s pretty traumatic. Yeah awful. Well when somebody a worldly family had had saw that my my girlfriend’s family day they were like okay sometimes you’re right sometimes actually a little weird at your house and they kind of they kinda encouraged me a little bit to to leave. I guess around there they were very worried about me but they I think I took the reassurance that they thought it was weird. [00:32:24] Pretty heavily and I took that car and hid in the woods and I left at 10 o’clock at night. I packed everything I had gathered my whole life since birth into a trash bag. I was pretty fit and I had this big try to sneak out of the house I had this big blow up with my dad. We were out. First time ever curst out him was in the front yard. He got in the car tried to chase me down and it was a huge thing aired but I got away. I had a sleep in my car for a while. I’m like 16 and I was bouncing around different kids houses who just thought he was crazy. What I was going through you know I stated some pretty shady bad places but I made sure I always went to school everyday. The school was the structure it needed. As a teenager were now without a family. Eventually that Catholic girl’s family they felt bad for my situation. And they took me in. So like at 16 17 I was living with my girlfriend and her Catholic family. And it was great man. If I felt so happy and relieved and excited to have Peligros finally normal and this weight had lifted off me and I was free and just run around still like a dumb puppy. But Dejour did your family like that they reach out to you. Did they try to either kindly reach out to you and encourage you to come back and show love. Or did they even like an authoritarian you know come at you with the you know you’re coming home type thing you know they did. [00:34:11] Was there some way that they did they attempt to go after you at all. Yeah a little bit but. So when it first happened I think yeah there they were. We didn’t have cellphones back then. So they were trying to track me down and I actually I think I went back and it only lasted a day or two. Just having a little taste of freedom was like. I mean I went back for maybe like a day or two just out of being torn away from my family. And like what that felt like to go to sleep at night and I said No you’re your family. Is away from you. You know it was a very emotional thing. So I try to go back in and they treated my see they already already had my brother who went through this. So they can’t I had practice. They decided that it was best to treat this with like a jailer you know. And they were even more rigid and so when I went back it only lasted a day or two and I was like Screw this I’m out of here. And then they decided to be real assholes. When I left home and I’m sure you understand there’s this dynamic that when somebody leaves there they’re dangerous. MARTIN You know I was becoming worldly and my at that time I had just got my driver’s license and if you’re under 18 your parent can revoke the license so the only way I was getting school and work and stuff with my car. They my dad voluntarily revoked my driver’s license so even though I wasn’t living at home I never saw them. [00:36:04] He just kind of like stock 1 2 million and revoke that license to make it harder for me to get around. Probably hoping that I crawl back home but I didn’t. I just drove anyway. Yeah that’s that’s pretty controlling. And I think that’s that’s kind of the theme here that you can see is so much here it really is just about control. Yeah I think that’s a point of religion in the first place but oh yeah yeah I agree. And then you know also you just see the the authoritarian nature of not only Jehovah’s Witnesses but you know even down to the micro level inside your own family. Your dad was just being an authoritarian instead of being a good loving father who you know because he could they could have taken you back in and said OK you know like you don’t want to live this life. I get it you know but how can we find a compromise or anything. But no it’s you know his way or you know their way or the highway. And they even revoke your license you can’t drive on the highway. Yeah just a little jab in the ribs Yeah yeah let’s make it harder for you to have any success in this in this life. So then how did it continue. I mean you know you’re living with this family and and clearly estranged from your own family. How did that play out as you know did you go on to college you know. How did it how did things end up there. [00:37:48] Well I mean all of a sudden I was in the midst of puberty and I went from being the most reserved kid in high school to the most free overnight. I was like the only kid in high school who moved out of their parents house so you know I had a I had an opportunity to really try to make up for lost time. And I did. I went to parties work where kids thought it was crazy to feed the Jehovah’s Witness kid who mom whose mom used to come in and preached her from fear and drugs and might put my girlfriend’s mom over there were really good parents they stepped in where my Jehovah’s Witness parents let go. And they tried their best to finish raising me. But like you was a rubber band and I was I had a taste and I just wanted to see everything I was kept away from. And she did help me get a full scholarship to college. She just wrote a story about how I survived that story essay she wrote an essay about how I survived high school and I actually got a full ride to a college over it. But they were they were from New York City and we ended up having a rough situation when I was living with them and I ended up staying my senior summer after graduation. I left Amish country and I went up to New York. And I loved it there. You know life is like Johnny 5 and short circuits just needed input. You know add up your lot input. [00:39:33] I got a job that summer I made friends at Friendly’s Ice Cream and these really genuine friends who didn’t know how I grew up they just I was just a kid from Pennsylvania who showed up and that summer was great and I had to go back to college for that fall right. And that whole ride lasted about three weeks before I screwed it up and I got caught by a security guard drinking beer and I had a girl in my room and they actually called the cops on me. So I fled Pennsylvania went back to New York kind of like how I left my parents in the middle of the night running away. And I never went back to Pennsylvania again. So then how did things shake out with that family. Were they. I’m sure they had some input. You know they had they had helped you get this scholarship and oh yeah they came up to New York and tracked me down in a chair to try to get me to come back to Pennsylvania. They were actually pretty upset but I just made friends and I loved it. New York I wanted so bad. Keep learning about this world that I haven’t done anything else. And by some terrible stroke of luck. When I moved to New York just completely by accident I met this group of Jehovah’s Witness runaways. I mean they were like the lost boys in New York. And is this a new york city or you New York State. This is Long Island. I’m like Queens Nassau County town full Levittown. They were up here and they all left and they were really really into drugs and yeah I start. And I kind of just fresh off the boat here. And I tried everything out. [00:41:36] It wasn’t just we but like hard stuff like Coke ecstasy mushrooms. I mean they were growing mushrooms. Oh beards everything. So one of my first drug experiences was I had a really bad trip where I decide to sniff ecstasy in each room. This is the first time I did it. I just yeah I said everything I did I did bottles of water. I’d go all out there right. Yeah yeah. It turns out they weren’t just doing that stuff they were selling it. And I mean not just little dime back there were weight. And there was pretty much the worst situation I could get into. And I tried everything. I got my input like I had girlfriends. I partied all the time. Actually I ended up in jail. I crashed my car went through the windshield took a swing and a car ended up overdosing on ecstasy. Really bad. She almost always drew my face. But I did have a little survival instinct just from that short time of being on the streets during high school and I had a taste of homelessness and I just want to make sure that was it me. So I kept a good job no matter how hard I partied. I always made sure I went to my job. I worked for a major insurance company that I purposely took midships so that I could party all night long and I have to wake up early to go to work. But it was a. It’s been raised an obvious country. Give me a little bit of a work ethic. Or is just being terrified of being a fish out of water. [00:43:09] I just made it was the only thing I had. It was a priority but I ended up in rehab that my job it had paid for. There was a good company and I met this guy in rehab who had put it in my head. I got to move out to California. So I just packed up and moved to California and then ended up being a really bad situation. He was like a he was a really scary person. And as soon as we got here to California I ran out of a motel in the morning and I left everything behind in that high school diploma and worked for all my clothes everything and I moved in with this girl I met at a bar just the night before. There’s a first person I met in California call them up like this crazy thing just happened as a cop asleep on the couch. And I’ve been friends with them for four years. So did you move to California with that guy from New York. Yeah I got out of rehab in and rented a convertible from enterpriser leave the state with it and we drove that thing all 3000 miles to San Diego. Matt When I screw up I screw up big time. You know again this is how you do whenever you do something you do it whole hog. You know the whole Yeah it does. Just wanted to learn everything I could do it. Yeah I mean it was it was satisfying my curiosity I was learning a lot of things. [00:44:42] But when you’re you know like in your young 20s you’re kind of oblivious to how what damage you’re dealing in and how off the rails you really are. You think you’re invincible. Yeah. So I looked down at him with this girl. Yeah yeah. Her roommate ended up being my best friend. We dated for a while. It didn’t work out. I dated a lot of different girls and then they were a really good influence so they came from affluent families. They were intelligent they graduated college and they said they were a good influence on me. I slowly got on my feet. I got away from the Jehovah’s Witness kids I’ve met in New York and kind of built a new group of friends here and and built them a little smarter this time around and had good influences around. I slowly got on my feet. So then as you’re you’re getting on your feet. What does that look like. Did you know you find gainful employment did you go back to school. No I didn’t go back to school. I had I always I was on the court. To build community committee where we built kingdom halls. I really love construction. I like to work with my hands so for 15 years now I’ve been doing construction I was good at so I had a pretty good job doing construction electrical work. And I eventually met my wife when I was about 26 I met a flight attendant from Puerto Rico. We got married. Which was great. I got more input. I got to travel the world. She spoke six languages. [00:46:51] She’s from Puerto Rico and got to travel the world get free drinks on the way in first class as a nonrevenue airline spouse. We’ve got to see Japan. Dublin went back to New York pretty much every weekend. But about a year or two into marriage we started thinking about kids and my 10 year high school reunion was coming up and I hadn’t seen my parents really in 12 13 years. And my dad was he was scary. He was an intimidating big guy when I left home and he said he enforced our pretty aggressively. But my parents actually now that I was married they figured I guess I was a little less scary so they invited my wife and I to stay with them from my high school reunion where I saw my dad at the airport is probably one of the most impactful things that I’ve ever seen today. He was completely unrecognizable to me. He was scary to my left and when I saw him again he was old and gray and walking with a limp I mean we didn’t we didn’t even really recognize each other. And like I hid there was like crying the whole way out of the car. My wife was curious about the story. That’s why I went back and it can be pretty horrible if she came from a Spanish culture where they had tight families and she just didn’t understand. So when she met my parents she understood. We woke up one morning I had the stroke of luck one at one of the fellow elders I think died the morning after the reunion. [00:48:44] So we will go to my mother’s standing over top of us like scream and you know you carry you know you’re going to die you’re gonna miss out in paradise. And my wife left me pretty much only got home she realized this isn’t a good guy to have a family with. She realized I was serious. We got divorced that kind of sucks. I guess I didn’t see that coming. It’s alright yeah I have them all right. I mean and I understand the culture that she came from you know being totally different and and what a shock that must have been to wake up to your mom screaming like that. And that’s. Yeah. God is so wild to an outsider. Yeah just seeing it. I guess you figured I was being dramatic or something the whole time just didn’t register to think she knew only Jehovah’s Witnesses or anything like doesn’t matter at all. But what she actually saw that I think that hit home for the wasn’t a good situation to be in. Well she got out of it. So how do you first. I’m sorry. And second how to pick up the pieces of that. I mean how do you you know when you when you’re leaving get home and that happens. How do you. Clearly you just have to go on. But what what did you do next. What were your next steps. [00:50:32] Well you see I also I also drank a lot because a erm I’d been torn away from my very young age and I always felt this like this kind of emptiness and I’m just pretty much always been scared so I would mask it with drugs and alcohol and I did that I don’t know when my wife left and I jumped in to a rebound situation pretty much even before I was divorced made his horrible decision. I moved out to Dallas for a while and what as a religious girl hit like a divorce situation like that again get into. And that ended up horribly because by then I was pretty much atheist and I developed this bad drinking problem. I was with her for a couple of years and I just realized I’m unhappy. And I was jumping from relationship to relationship. And I was expecting these girls to replace my entire family. And it’s not fair to them now. I put a lot of them on their shoulders and when I moved back out to San Diego I moved back with absolutely nothing. The relationship in Texas went horrible she took my truck. I came back with a backpack. I was thirty one I think by that time and I had absolutely nothing. I stayed on friends couches. I bought a boat and I lived in the Pacific. I’m on this boat. It’s pretty cool in San Diego. You could live for like MS a very expensive place but you can live on a boat for about five dollars a month. It includes your electricity hookup and your water. Add up I revisited something I used to do as a kid. I like to write. I love I’d write these little stories and pretend like I was somewhere else. Growing up in a different family and I’d make my old little books you know. And I’d read them and pretend I wasn’t this kid. So I just knew that I was I had a drinking problem. [00:52:51] And for somebody who has curiosity and likes to try different things from me to do something repeatedly every day it makes no sense. So I pretty much realize this and almost overnight I stopped drinking. I was with everything bad that had gone wrong. I still ended up in a situation where I woke up every morning on the Pacific and looked out my front windshield and saw sailboats go on by and the military ships coming in and out past Cordaro island. I felt like I was still I didn’t have anything materially but I had gotten everything I wanted when I was when I was a a Jehovah’s Witness that I dreamed about you know I’ve been through all these circumstances I learned firsthand why not to do them. I mean when I heard all the people who had been through this and been through like hard situations where things just happened bam bam one after another is to right cause I floated on that bow and I wrote I just wrote down everything and happened and chronologically just went through it. And then when you have that as like one piece that you can look back on I was able to kind of put together the pieces and figure out you know the patterns I was making mistakes in. And yeah I was able to make some changes. Yeah Sunny. Yeah. It’s funny that you mention the patterns because I’ve just been sitting here as you’ve been talking listening. Last night my wife and I went to see Citizen Kane the old movie. Really. Yeah. We went to see it with some friends at a local theater. [00:54:45] They were playing some old movies and Jimmy Wales Yeah yeah. Orson Welles yeah. Orson Welles Yeah yeah. And it was it was you know when when I left that movie I was like you know you could see this pattern of this kid that you know his his mom pretty much doesn’t seem to care about him a lot his mom and his dad and they just kind of send them off and he spends his entire life chasing love. His entire life trying to to force everyone else to love him the way he feels he needs to be loved to you know make up for the injury he had as a kid. And we as human beings tend to repeat certain patterns. There are things that happen to us when we were young and then we tend to go through life trying to fix those injuries from when we were kids. I mean I know that I’ve noticed that in myself and I did you know thisJ.W. life I told my whole story and I’ve noticed things in there about myself and I’m still noticing things and I was just sitting here you know after watching that movie last night I’m just sitting here listening to your story and saying how you know you had to run you know just pack up and run to leave a bad situation with your parents and just how you know over and over again you know you you get put in situations where you have to pack up and run. You know it’s it’s it’s it’s amazing how we play out these things in our lives. Yeah I actually ended up doing it. I mean I kind of paraphrased this but I counted up. [00:56:27] I actually ended up packing up and running thirty eight times in five states. Wow. Yeah isn’t it. You know and it’s not it’s not something to look at a person and be like that’s not something to point out where a person is wrong or something. It’s just it’s it’s fascinating how we as humans internalize this stuff and we get hurt in some way and then it just manifests itself and we don’t even know we’re doing it. We are given these roles when we’re young sometimes and we will play them out. And that’s for everybody. And I think that what you said was so so good about you know sitting down and you know kind of writing out your life and I mean it helps from a processing perspective just to get it out of your head and then you get to see this whole picture and be like oh yeah you know this is that thing. Yeah oh yeah yeah. It’s we humans are amazing creatures. Yeah yeah it really is. I’m glad that you got to do that for yourself because I’m sure that it has helped to you can’t heal what you don’t see. All right. Right. Going through some of that now though. We all have you know yeah. I mean you know I’m saying that I don’t. I struggle to as a witness. I knew everybody and a lot of people knew me and I had like all these. I’ve always struggled with the concept of what is a friend. And so like I knew all these people but I never had any. There was no intimacy there. [00:58:14] There was no real relationship. We just we knew each other and it was around common thing. You know being the religion and right now that I’m out I’m finding you know like I know all these people now you know and I have friends that do different things with or whatever and that’s great. But I find that you know a lot of them are honestly couple friends it’s things that my wife and I go do things with people but I’m kind of terrified of putting myself out there and being vulnerable and trying to have like a one on one friendship with somebody because I’ve just never never been taught how to do that or how to get close to people and things like that it’s not. You didn’t get close to anybody as a witness. They were probably going to be disfellowshipped or leave. You know in the distant future and then you would never be able to see them again. So why have a relationship with them. Right. And so you know we all have these patterns that we play out and you know these places where we have to we have this damage from the religion or from our families of origin in the religion because it all plays hand in hand and we all have to try to try to look at ourselves and think OK well you know this is a it’s not like if we weren’t born into Jehovah’s Witnesses we would somehow have these magical laws where everything was healthy but we do have special things that maybe we have to deal with. Right. [00:59:48] Well we always would have been exposed to the to the real world that you have to live and work in. Altium Yeah. So many times you know people have a hard time making friendships once they leave. Yeah yeah it is. It is. It’s just hard to get close to people or you know like as a as a young witness. I’m here I’m spill my guts. Yeah. As a young witness you can’t get close to anybody like in school or anything like that because you’re not allowed to be friends with them. And then at the Kingdom Hall you’re not allowed to really be yourself because you’re having to put on this appearance that you’re the perfect witness and that you know you don’t like this song or that movie or whatever you say you can’t be yourself anymore. Right. And so you know then when you leave first you kind of have to find yourself and figure out who you even are. And then it’s terrifying to show that to other people like Will you accept me if I show you that I disagree with died or you know I like this other thing or whatever because you spend so long trying to be who everybody else wants you to be so that you can fit in in any you know somewhere whether that be inside the witnesses or are like you said outside the witnesses sometimes people leave and they think they have to be you know like that pack of ex witnesses that you you ran into who were so heavily involved in all these bad things that are kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy that the organization gave us which was that if you leave you’re going to be this drug dealing murdering raping horrible person. [01:01:33] Ed so you leave and you’re like well I guess I got a lot of deals from drugs and rape somebody at my yesterday so that I can fit in and out here. Yeah yeah yeah. You know this taught you that you would just be the worst of the worst. So yeah you know we all have these we all have so much damage we carry with us from from that time in our lives and we have to try to figure out either do we like that part of us you know for you you know maybe you love being kind of more transient and being able to move around or maybe you really want to be stable more stable in a certain place you know. And so that’s what you find. You know we all have to kind of find you know do we want to be that adventurer or do we want to settle down somewhere or you know what do we want our lives to look like. And it’s a battle that we all have to fight. Unfortunately at a much older age than other people because you know we grew up the way we did. Right. Well if you left you know the Jehovah’s Witnesses when you were single. The first thing you find is your penis which is going to lead you directly into trouble. Pretty much let on the Lost Boys Anjos witness. And you Arctus that’s what led us in trouble. All of us and we did not have practical practical information to approach the world with. And they expect us to fail. Yeah they don’t give you the tools to survive. [01:03:07] And then they call it prophecy. You know when you win you fail is complete hypocrisy. So let’s take that let’s let’s take that for instance that you just gave. How you leave and find your penis. You know I was just thinking you know the other day I was reading a thread on this forum and they were talking about you know like did the organization screw you up sexually and they were talking about how even in even in marriages even even inside the organization you’re taught that you know your genitalia whichever variety you have is evil and off limits and bad. And you know while you’re dating this brother or sister in the congregation like you can date them. But of course only with chaperones and don’t even think sexual thoughts. And then as soon as you get married boom like you were expected to be the sexual creature. You know you can’t just stick with it right you can’t just turn things a lot and often people know that’s just systematically destroying relationships. I feel bad for a lot of Jehovah’s Witness couples that that put on a smile pretend everything’s great and you know it’s not. I’ve been through this. I mean I’ve had like 30 some relationships I’ve tried to make work like I’m not just talking one night stands I’ve tried. And I realize I have so much to learn practical information that I have to figure out. I have a failed marriage. Yeah they really screwed up. I actually have a daughter right. [01:04:59] I was in the middle of this you know trying to I don’t even know my daughter over this whole mess I was as soon as I left. By penis led me directly into trouble. Yeah. Now 34 I’m where I should be when I was 24. I’m trying to clean it up. Yeah yeah. You know let’s let’s let’s take people and let’s let’s repress all of their natural not just you know sexuality but just their abilities their thoughts their feelings let’s repress everything in them and then expect them somehow to be healthy. You can’t do that. Right. And so you know I think oh good lord if I found myself single some day married since I was 21 years old I’d have no I have no clue. I don’t know what the rules are in the wide world around us. I don’t know. You know just dealing with people with different histories and everything. You know it would be so hard. And I can I feel for you know people who leave and you know have to figure all that out on their own because it’s it’s it’s a very hard thing to do to navigate you know the world is hard enough to navigate as is. Throw in a culture that makes you know decades behind other people and a lot of ways and try to figure this stuff out. It’s just so unfair. But I’m glad that you know I’m sorry. [01:06:34] You know you two have had to go through you know pain in these different areas but I’m glad that you know you’re you’re mature enough to look at this stuff and to be able to see it now you know for what it was and to try to you know kind of you know grow and work toward a better life for yourself. As a Korean have it you know hard enough just leaving the Jehovah’s Witness religion we also grew up on the cusp of one of the biggest things if not the biggest thing to ever hit the human race. The invention of the Internet. Now dating is turned upside down. We’re learning to navigate this new timeline of the human race. Is a star it’s a hard time. Yeah you on a call. Yes absolutely. Absolutely. So then you know we kind of know why you left. You know the Kalt. But I’ll let you know. Do you want to do you want to say why you left or you know was there more to it than just you know that period when you were that age. You know why would you say that you left now. What helped you to wake up to what it really was. I was following an instinct and I’m glad I did. I still think I have pretty good instincts. I mean I got a lot of trouble but I learned my lessons. The hard way and I’m I’m still glad I did. I mean I learned a hell of a lot. But back then it was science and girls. That’s why I pretty much left. Were my favorite subjects of study. The more I studied the truth the more I took issue with it. And I really find it hilarious that they name their religion. The truth is like if you start a call we should name it. The ultimate truth no Baxley’s. Yeah. [01:08:42] It’s so insidious just naming it that it shows you know that there is an agenda just in the name is juvenile. Yeah yeah. Well I love other people and I began to look for ways as I was studying as now baptized Jehovah’s Witness. I was starting to look for ways to prove the child was witness witnesses wrong instead of always bending every bit of information that comes in to prove it right. And I was surprised at how easy it was to punch holes in an almost 20 years since then I’ve I’ve educated myself very heavily in science cosmology physics biology geology. I love everything that I can learn. And the more I learn about that the more it just takes me away from that religion and the rationale that religion. They are. I think there’s a definite reason why they they keep you from secular education. Yeah I I just it seems so clear to me. You personally that that the Bible and the religion Bible and religion are totally manmade fabrications. I don’t see any evidence to support it more. And I’m glad that I left. I’d like to say that no one don’t narc. There wasn’t a global flood 4000 years ago are eight point seven million species didn’t come from two of every animal that survived on a wooden boat. The population didn’t come from one incestuous family and Sanders is a real and a man’s a grammatically incorrect way to say a man. It just sounds like a story to me. You know it just sounds like a manmade story. [01:10:33] I can’t believe that I was starting to figure it out it at like 15 and my parents are still in their 70s now. And do they still believe in Noah’s Ark. Oh yeah yeah. They still take all that literally. How can a grown adult believe that and come to live. Well I live in southern Indiana Kentucky just across the river and go to Kentucky and I think that’s where the that’s where the Ark Encounter is. Oh Ken Ham yeah yeah yeah that’s all that’s just yeah in the state across the river. Yeah. You know I mean it’s you know I think if you’re if you’re taught that from birth and you’re you know a bible literalists then you know you you have the faith to allow those things to be you know faith isn’t something that I can just have anymore. I live more of an evidence based life. But yeah I think that’s that’s how how people get around it. And I think that there are people who clearly you know need it on some level emotionally and maybe they don’t need you know the ark specifically but you know like you said about your dad. He I think it was your dad. I don’t I don’t want somebody in your family you know had that PTSD. And my grandfather your grandfather. There you go. And I think you know things get introduced because you know in doing this podcast so far I’ve talked to a lot of people who you know when you start getting into their stories it seems like you know the nexus of somebody joining the witnesses in the first place is some sort of trauma right. And then they are looking for certainty and they find something that will provide them that certainty. [01:12:40] It may not be necessarily evidence but evidence based certainty sometimes doesn’t give people what they need or what they want and they just don’t know how to work through their stuff and then they give birth to people who are born into this and man when you’re taught it from the time you’re a kid it’s it’s really tough to work your way through. Yeah yeah. I mean now to me. Well it’s pretty much the fact that word faith means to believe something without any evidence of it. You know now I’m 34 and I’ve had a hell of a lot of education because I went out and saw it. I have a lot of street education and I I did make a lot of friends a I know a lot of people have a hard time with that and I know why. I still am not very confident myself but I have to do it. So basically I’m 34 and I’m more educated than my parents will ever be. And I just have a hard time. Like everywhere else go. Well you know I would say that you know you are the type of person that has this curiosity. And when I’m listening to you it makes me think of the people who you’re more like an adventurer. You’re a person who has that spirit in them where you have this thirst for knowledge you have this thirst to it. You’re an explorer. There you go you’re an explorer. And I don’t. Not everybody is an explorer. You know naturally not everybody is kind of naturally wired that way. [01:14:31] And for some people it’s you know find a place and live there your whole life and never change much for other people it’s you know you got to go. There had to be somebody who went and explored things and were those you know pioneers back in the day and and not witness pioneers. I mean real pioneers. Yeah I actually did something. Yeah I guess that was my point. My foundation I feel it is built on on concrete now. It was made much when I left the Joves witnesses. But I’m always since a little kid. That’s why I went into construction for a while. I’d like to know how things work and I want to know actually how it works not how you think it works. I want to see it work and that’s how applied life and how we look at the universe. And I think jobs what is there and pretty much like every other religion they’re just trying to answer questions that probably don’t have an answer and they feel it gives them a false sense of pride that they know everything that’s happening in the universe. They have all the answers and it just I figured out at 15 that this is bullshit. Yeah if it’s difficult to take the perspective of others that try to figure out you know why they why they are where they are sometimes. Now let’s not think why my parents are in it. So do Evers. So I was going to ask you you know so it sounds like are you officially out. Are you like this you know like or you. Are you still technically a witness. Are you disfellowshipped. [01:16:30] They’re just kind of wondering you know. From the perspective of like you know is there a narrative out there as to where why you left. You know is there a file on me. Yeah yeah yeah. Do people. Why would people think that you left. Do you ever go back and see any of those people. Are they still friendly to you. Or do they kind of see you a certain way. I mean I was baptized at 12. And as far as I know I still am. We had an elders meeting when they realized that for a period of time that this all happened very quickly. But I had stopped wanting to get out of the car or go knock on doors and cause that stirred up hours as they forced me to go in service work. I wouldn’t get out the car so I had an elders meeting and I basically decided you know how things were going to go. And they sat me down they tried to talk me out of it and trying to reason with the Bible. And even then the Bible was when I had the issue with the entire book so and the others me and they were trying to read scriptures to me and like what that book is when I have a problem with that and I don’t recognize your authority. And I did pretty much just walked out and they had this like hilarious stunned look on their face and I didn’t resign. I don’t think I was disfellowshipped I never sent a formal letter like Michael Jackson did to disassociate myself from the neighborhood book club. [01:18:02] I just kind of thought this was all made up and like a book club and just walked away. Yeah. A I don’t know if they’d just fellowship me or an office. I don’t really have any communication with anybody. I grew up with law. Does that include you or your family. Do you have any communication with them anymore or is that just kind of after that last incident. Is that kind of just the end of it. Okay that happened probably well for now there have been about six years ago. I probably talked to them. I talked my down on the phone once and my mom said probably in six years for text messages. So yeah I don’t think they even know what I do for a living. No. Yeah sorry. I just I don’t know. I don’t really care. It’s to me it is like the Boy Scouts or something. Now doesn’t doesn’t apply anymore. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. You’ve grown beyond that. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like people that have never been witnesses to know about it that you think they might not know about my departure or just about Jehovah’s Witnesses in general I mean they they tell you not to make worldly friends they came up with this word worldly and they steering away from science for a reason. And that is because it pokes holes in what they want you to believe. They want to keep this pact together. And anybody who started I would say feed that you know learn things for yourself go through experiences. And it’s good to have a support group. [01:20:12] I was kind of unfortunate when I left and immediately found other Jehovah’s Witnesses to be friends with. You know I kind of thought I didn’t become atheist. It took a long time. A lot of research to come to that conclusion. So I thought maybe Jehovah led me into a group of other jobs as well as kids. And it was one of the worst things that happened to me because we’re all deficient in the same areas. We all suffer the same thing. So what you need to do is if you’re looking to live is to meet people who have no idea what the Jehovah’s Witnesses are because they’re going to be strong in the areas that you need to learn about. And you know it’s hard to make friends. What you have to be if you don’t have a family anymore you need to make one. I have a huge family now. I don’t have any blood family but I have a family that spans the United States that someone has always been there and it helped me when I fell down the aisle. I live in a house now and I’m okay. But it was other people that helped me get there. You know when you when you’re thinking about leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses people are scared to leave the support group that they have there. But you have the potential to make a much bigger one. What a much more rounded group of people. Is that the end of the world. You just have to go out n generally people are good. Of course there’s bad people out there who are going to learn that too to avoid that. [01:21:52] But usually the red flags come up pretty quick and you want to avoid those people that make friends that are that are strong good people and you know don’t be a mooch but they’re just tell them your story has pretty much to this day if I is they’ll tell people how I grew up. They’re shocked by it and they’re interested in and they want to talk to you and figure out why this is a thing that happens. I 100 percent agree. And I think that that is a very important point about telling your story and not just because I had to pay Castro I help people. But yeah I mean first of all that’s being vulnerable and allowing yourself to be vulnerable to others which people respect. Second of all you know I think we all are taught we’re all told as witnesses not to share our story we’re told to keep quiet about it all. That if you’re going to walk away at least keep your mouth shut. And that’s another thing that they tell us that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy because they know if we go out into this world and we don’t tell anybody our stories then it’s going to be easier for the witnesses to keep the reputation that they want instead of what is actually true. And then it’s also going to be more difficult for you to actually connect to anybody because I mean I tell people my story I mean you don’t want to just say you know there’s a time and place for it. [01:23:25] You don’t want to overwhelm people or Oh or or take over things but if you bring up the subject and people are interested then tell them because they want to know and you know it’s a way for people to get to know each other. Stories have been an important part of human history since day you know for a long time. So right. I mean anyone raised Jehovah’s Witness does have good quality. I think that’s the whole point of religion in the first place. It’s a vessel to understand morality which are generally good people so there’s no reason why you can’t go out and make friends. But yeah I think it’s funny that you said you know they tell people to keep their mouth shut when they leave. Isn’t that something a rapist would say. Oh yeah absolutely. Or someone who is molesting kids or whatever. Yes. Yeah. They tell you keep your mouth shut don’t tell anybody. I mean it’s so abusive. So what was that as human pack animals as human beings you know we need to go out and make friendships and yeah we all need to find our tribe somewhere right. So where are you now in your journey. Well I you know it took me 20 years to recover from from this upbringing. And then the breaking of the rubber band. I mean I really I really made a mess of my entire 20s and I’m finally say I’m 34 I feel like I’m 24. Now back to being single but I know I finally have it I’m okay. I have a place to live a job. [01:25:12] It is really hard to sit down and write out everything that happened that that’s really when everything came together for me and I know I was where and I don’t really notice I was that bad of an alcoholic and drug abuser until I wrote it down it and then oh man I really got to stop that. When he had the right motivation. I was able to do it pretty much overnight. Yeah. And especially the motivation that they expect me to fail. So now I have this motivation it’s like a fire on my ass that then till now I’ve basically accepted that they want me to fail. And it almost killed me like I pretty much tried to kill myself in my 20s slowly. You have this like guilt that lives in the back you that you feel bad for even exploring your own life. They kind of build this prison in your own mind that you live in and because it follows you around in Nowheresville educated by I’m trying to approach life with this information and I really feel like I’m just starting now. I look forward to the rest of it. That’s awesome. Me Now you have the chance to make it what you want instead of what you know they wanted it to be for you like your dad said you know when he was yanking you out of that girl’s house you know this isn’t the life I want for my son. Well you know what Dad. It’s not your life right. You don’t get to decide how other people live and who they are. So I’m glad that you’re getting the chance now to decide that for yourself. Is there anything that you’ve learned that you know specifically has really impacted your life for the better. [01:27:14] I mean you know beyond maybe science or whatever but is there anything that you’ve learned about yourself or just about people or whatever that that has really made your life better. Yeah just from the social aspect of of human beings n being able to do is see my 20s as as a whole what I’m really concerned with. Now when I left the Jehovah’s Witnesses I was terrified of even talking about it. It was like almost seeing a spider for a while. I don’t want to even think about it. And I think that’s why I did so many drugs and things in my 20s and I think it’s important. I’ve actually bumped into some Jehovah’s witnesses that are in their 20s now and have decided to leave like months ago. So I feel like I’ll get this opportunity to kind of help them to not make the mistakes I did. I know a lot of people who have just like yourself sprang just just went crazy as soon as they left and I think they’re what you’re doing is a good thing. You know we’re a support group because basically our parents had stopped raising us. And we need somebody there to help steer us through this world. You know I’m just on that journey now trying to help other people and not do the things I did because it ended up really bad for me. So I went to jail like I overdosed and it took me about ten years after that overdose to really be able to remember to retain any memories. Do to form any new memories and I don’t want that to happen to other people. [01:29:20] And it’s funny you know witnesses would say Well yeah cause she went to jail and jail and ended up on drugs. I mean look at you you’re in the world now. You’re right. It’s not because of the world it’s because of them. Exactly it is not. That is not the world or my experience in the world that put me in jail or made me overdose. It’s my experience with Vemma that did it. They set me up this way. They set me up to fail as soon as I left. I had no tools. Yeah. So well you know I know that you know you’ve talked a lot about you know some of the mistakes you’ve made and things like that which I think is awesome because you know it helps others to maybe avoid some of the other similar mistakes. But what do you what do you enjoy. You know paint a picture for me what do you enjoy about your new life. You know as you see it now. What are you what are you looking for in your new life. What are your plans. What are you up to now. What’s good man. Well like I said I’ve kind of become this pillar of strength that these young people have just come out. It was totally inadvertent. But like I said I like to help people like to work on boats. I still like to see how things work. And I like to write. I just love how much there is to know me. Variety is the spice of life. It can’t be overstated. But you also have to approach variety with moderation. [01:30:53] You can’t go crazy on any one thing or it’s going to hurt you. Variety is everywhere in the universe. It’s a keener balance. You have to take a variety of classes in college for a reason you know to get a degree in one field. You have to eat a balanced diet. Finding and experiencing that variety is the fun in life. You know like Mark Twain’s travels fail all bigotry. So it’s failed ignorance. Learn everything you can. I’m a jack of so many trades and the pursuit of knowledge. It’s the whole point of life and the key to doing that safely is moderation which I didn’t know in my 20s. What I learned the hard way. Well that’s cool. Do you have any anything that you’re anything specifically that you’re wanting to do. Coming up having gone for like 17 years or something but I’m in a new place in life. Or you know I’m planning on trying to approach people and not be so scared of talking about it like seeing a spider. So I plan on kind of going down a path or more in helping where I can help kids like me who didn’t have anything to look forward to when they left. You know I was raised preaching to other people. I just the subject has changed. That’s all. I like that. [01:32:32] I mean there are there are real serious issues that we do need to work out and I think serious things that that could use a little preaching that people need to take seriously like tangible things like our our planet where we’re destroying and that there’s just a lot of issues that need to be dealt with instead of dealing with fanatical religion that affects everyone’s home. We share this. So I agree and it’s the difference between you know Jehovah’s Witnesses would tell you that that essentially there is no hope for this planet other than you know what God is going to bring. And you know through they have absolved themselves essentially of much responsibility today because they can just say well you know God’s got it I don’t have to worry about any of this stuff. I don’t have to help anywhere participate in anything or you know do anything that actually you know a lot of them unfortunately then even can even get to the point where they just don’t they just to do things that harm the earth because they just don’t care. But yeah I mean Jehovah’s Witnesses they’re just pretty much one and I think there’s like 33000 plus different variations of Christianity alone. I mean there just one. And we’ve spent all this time shedding on our home planet while we look to the next life you know like our time here is temporary. That’s a horrible way to look at it because generation after generation is coming along you know and meanwhile we have this thing religion that helped us understand our morality. But it I don’t think it’s doing us any good anymore. We know why we need morality and we’ve we’ve banned contraceptives in different religions and now we’re overpopulated. We’ve crossed the tutelary threshold. And we’re looking at serious problems if we don’t do something fast for our planet. I think that’s the things we need to worry about. [01:35:02] I agree I agree wholeheartedly and I think it’s great that you know now that you’re out you can you can focus on those things you can focus on you know living your own life helping other people and doing things that actually matter today instead of pushing it all off into the future and I think that’s great. Thanks. Just first proof that it rips families apart and life is too short. Enough already not to have a fair start at it. I just just want that to end. I agree. Well is there anything that. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wanted to say or anything. Well as far as as far as my parents and everything you know I’m pretty critical of them. But at this rate they’re in there in their 70s and even though I am critical of the way they they they raise me. It was what they were taught to do. And I don’t really harbor any ill will against them I do against their religion. You know I’ve actually you know wrote this book about growing up and why it’s so important to leave and it’s going to be for sale on Amazon like next week and I don’t even want them to know about it. I don’t want to hear this podcast haha. At this point they’re in their 70s and if they if they did realize they would look back on an entire life of missed opportunities and I think that they don’t have much time left and I see that you know as I don’t want to be like that. No I understand. [01:36:46] It’s like if you wake up somebody that is in you know that is in advanced age. Then you wake them up to the realities of what their life has been and they look back on a wasted life will destroy them. Yeah it easily could. Especially because it is their whole social circle. It’s somebody who has their identity it’s a lot of times they’ve you know I think about my mom you know my dad died you know at this point you know the resurrection hope. I’m sure she’s holding on to that. And you know I don’t I don’t want to take that away from somebody. You know a lot of times you know witnesses this is like to vilify us you know quote apostates or whatever they want to call us as people who are just out to ruin their fun or whatever. But the reality is that if you talk to most of us you know I don’t want to take somebodies faith away from them. I don’t want you to put your faith on me. You know I’m not here to take your faith away. If you ask me questions then I should be able to answer them without you freaking out because you ask the question or otherwise don’t ask and that’s fine. We don’t have to discuss the subject of spirituality the Bible any of that we can. There are so many other things in life to discuss. But you know most of us we don’t want to destroy other people’s lives and their faiths and things like that. You know we’re not trying to hurt anybody they are doing the same thing that we do. [01:38:34] We thought we were doing when we were Jehovah’s Witnesses and we want to help people yeah want to help them see. Yeah. And only now we actually are helping people. Right. You know like I think about you know how many people have reached out since I started my podcast last year and have said you know that I was able to help them in some way. When I was a witness I knocked on doors I mean I pioneered at that point I knocked on doors for 90 hours a month. Yeah and I never helped a person with anything. No company yeah yeah yeah I guess a bought old ladies in houses who you know would invite you in. That was that was it. We never really truly made anybody’s life better and now I hear from people who have been able to help in some way. I thank Jason for reaching out and for being willing to tell his story if you’d like to hear more. Like I said he’s written a book entitled “worldly – how not to escape a cult”. So again that’s “Worldly – How not to escape a cult”. The book was just released on Amazon as a paperback or even as a Kindle version. Jason has a heart to help and he wants to help others know kind of keep them from making some of the same mistakes that he made. You know we’re given so few tools to deal with reality when we grow up in the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses. [01:40:09] And hopefully his book can help some not to learn some of the lessons the hard way like he did feel free to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a comment for Jason on the episode’s page for his episode. You can follow the show on YouTube my channel called shunnedpodcast. Again that’s one word and you can get my personal videos there is vidcast as well. You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter as shunnedpodcast. And my wife handles those channels for the show. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes. It really means a lot to me. You can also support the show financially at Patreon.com/shunned for as little as a dollar a month. I count on the support there to help me pay for things like the transcripts that I put up on the site to help attract more traffic and listeners those listeners are people that are needing and hopefully finding help as well. And you know this is the way we’re all in this. We can all help in some way. You can hear my story at the high caste called This JW Life if you haven’t already. Our theme music is by fair voyeur who is also a former witness in the song is entitled No hell yet. The next episode’s going to be out at the beginning of September it will feature Sydney and other former J-dub. And she has an interesting story. I actually got to meet her for the first time at an apostafest just over a week ago and while we were there I went ahead and did some many interviews that I was going to add to her episode. [01:41:41] Well it just so happened that I got so much good concept from those many interviews that I’m going to release them separately as yet another bonus episode. So you can look forward to that. She come out after Sydney’s episode. And I’ve got lots of good things coming up. But for now let’s end this the right way love others do no harm and go be happy.