In my six years of reviewing washing machines, I’ve never once seriously considered recommending a Speed Queen top-loader. This shouldn’t be controversial: Every publication that tests appliances has years of controlled test results proving the superiority of front-loading washers. So why are most washer reviews’ comments sections filled with Speed Queen fans claiming otherwise?

For most of my career, I’ve been content to brush off Speed Queen washers as wasteful, ineffective machines. They just barely meet the Department of Energy’s efficiency requirements. However, Speed Queen top-loaders are exceptionally durable and repairable—they’re essentially commercial laundromat washers without a coin slot, and should last at least twice as long as a mainstream HE (high efficiency) washer. Even so, they can use so much extra water and energy (we estimate $150 extra per year on average) that it’s unlikely that owners will save money in the long run, even after factoring in the cost of replacement or repair every few years.

But as I researched the new 2018 Speed Queen models for the latest update to our washing machine guide, I came across some surprising reactions to the latest design from longtime devotees that piqued my interest. It also dawned on me that I’d never had an actual conversation with a Speed Queen fan about why they hold such strong feelings for these machines. This seemed like a shame, because chances are we’re more alike than different—not many people care enough about washing machines to argue about them with strangers on the Internet. I’d assumed that I’d been making my points clearly in my reviews, and that the Speed Queen fans who left harsh comments were simply being stubborn. But maybe I was the one missing something. So I reached out to some washing machine enthusiasts to hear their side.

“I was totally devastated by it… Am I really going to change my entire opinion on Speed Queen that I’ve had all my entire life?” —Eugene Pallas, owner of Lorain Furniture & Appliance

Eugene Pallas, owner of Lorain Furniture & Appliance in Cleveland, Ohio, was among the most ardent enthusiasts I encountered. He has been a huge Speed Queen fan since 2000, the first time he repaired one. For a couple of years, the only new washers he would sell at his shop were Speed Queen.

“I gotta look the customer in the eye three months later when I see them,” Pallas said, “and I don’t have any hesitation when I know they bought a Speed Queen from me.” He worries that if he sells somebody a cheaper, repair-prone washer, he’ll lose the customer forever. As a small shop, he can’t afford to have that happen.

Regular posters in forums I visited while reporting this article echoed Pallas’s assessment, referring to themselves as “people reminiscing [for] the days of quality construction and easy repair” who “like to have control.” Several users compared them to old muscle cars, before smog-reduction regulations kicked in and crippled the old designs. It’s also, at least a little bit, about holding up a middle finger to our “throwaway disposable economy,” which they deride as “planned obsolescence run amok.”

I brought up the fact that Speed Queen top-loaders earn mediocre test scores from mainstream review outlets, but none of the fans seemed particularly bothered. “I’m nearly 60 years old and have seen most washers from the mid-1950’s onward” wrote AutomaticWasher.org forum member Barry Warren, who posts under the handle mrsalvo. “The agitator washers... were the standard, period. Tried and proven,” and then he wrote out a very comprehensive list of pro-agitator points, including: better reliability, never locking you out of the washer, no mold, quick cycles, and more user control in general. (Warren did say, though, that he liked his vintage GE Filter-Flo agitator top-loader much more than the Speed Queen he bought last year.) Michael Haensel, who posts on the forum as EEmac, added: “The agitator top-loader cleans my stuff very well.”

As for the rough cleaning action and excessive water use? Haensel puts it simply: “For gentleness, there’s the gentle cycle. Efficiency is less of a concern for me than the other things I value.”

Actually, one of the most compelling points in favor of the Speed Queen is that it does use a ton of water. Pallas, and several others with knowledge of lots of different types of washers, said that old-school top-loaders are the best at cleaning grimy, dirt-caked work clothes. That’s actually something that the industry-standard tests do not currently measure, and I think the fans may have a point.

I’m still convinced that most people are better off with a midrange front-loader from a mainstream brand. But now that I can put some voices to the pro-Speed Queen arguments, I have a better appreciation for why somebody would make this choice. I even thought about making a full-throated recommendation for a Speed Queen in our buying guide for people who frequently deal with heavy-duty messes.

Unfortunately, my change of heart may have come too late. Eugene Pallas, our Speed Queen superfan and dealer, was one of the first people to review the new 2018 Speed Queen top-loaders on YouTube. He did not like what he saw.

Speed Queen public relations manager Randy Radtke told us that the wash action on the 2018 model is “radically different” from that of past washers, and that the new design performs better on the industry-standard cleaning tests, is gentler on clothes, and much quieter. If that’s true, it should help the washer score better on the kinds of tests that Consumer Reports (subscription required) and Reviewed.com run. Unfortunately, as Pallas demonstrates in his videos, this revamped wash action comes as a result of the agitator and tub moving in unison, rather than the separate action that Speed Queen fans swear by.

Pallas found that the new washer worked fine on items like smaller towels (which is exactly what the standardized tests use), but that it struggled to clean heavier items like work clothes, leaving behind stains and soap residue. The items just kind of float in place, swishing back and forth instead of getting pushed around. If you watch his videos in order, you can hear the disappointment building in his voice.

“Once I got down to real clothes and a real test, it’s like, this fucking thing isn’t even washing, I don’t even know what to do,” said Pallas in a subsequent interview. “Honestly man, I was totally devastated by it. I didn’t publish that video without a heavy heart, you know what I mean? It was serious, I had to sleep on it. Am I really going to change my entire opinion on Speed Queen that I’ve had all my entire life?”

Pallas’s heavy heart was no consolation to Speed Queen. Pallas claims that after he posted his summary review, his distributor contacted him on behalf of Speed Queen, asking him to take the video down. Pallas declined. “You’ve got to think about somebody who’s working construction and got three kids. $2,000 is a ton of money for a washer and dryer. Can you imagine when they buy that and get it delivered and it doesn’t clean the poor guy’s work clothes?”

“I wonder if Speed Queen realizes that by cheapening their design that they alienated 90% of their customer base.”—whoisthisguy724A, YouTube commenter

The next week, Pallas found that he could no longer log into any Speed Queen retailer portals, so he couldn’t order new machines, or even parts to service the machines that he’d already sold to his customers. His store had been taken off the public database of certified Speed Queen dealers. The brand hadn’t contacted Pallas directly to tell him any of this, and he had to get in touch with his distributor to confirm that he’d been decertified. (We asked Speed Queen about Pallas’s claim, and the company said it does not comment on matters relating to its dealers.)

So where does this leave the fans of old-school agitator washers? Well, some of them have already decided that they hate the new Speed Queen design. In a video polemic against the 2018 Speed Queen models, YouTube reviewer Sharkie626 said that the only worthwhile washing machines left are used ones. In that video’s comments section whoisthisguy724A lamented, “I wonder if Speed Queen realizes that by cheapening their design that they alienated 90% of their customer base.”

Some forum members have pinned their hopes to the new Maytag Commercial MVWP575GW—another agitator top-loader built for laundromats that’s now available, without the coin slot, for home use. However, it’s barely been available for six months, so not many people have reviewed it yet. It also has some important differences in the build—for instance, the spin speed is slower, which means clothes will need to spend more time in the dryer—so it’s hard to say how it compares with the older Speed Queen model that people loved so much. Pallas now sells and recommends that Maytag Commercial instead of the new Speed Queen, and says it performs just as well, if not better than his old favorite. But he has yet to compare it directly with the last good Speed Queen from 2017. We eagerly await that video.

In the meantime, Pallas said he also really likes front-loaders. If you walk into his shop in Cleveland today, you’ll be able to check out the front-loading LG WM3770HWA, which Pallas also keeps in his own home for large items that can’t fit in his top-loader (like a comforter), or for nicer clothes that he doesn’t want to subject to the top-loader’s aggressive wash action. He said the LG does a solid job cleaning pretty much anything, and we agree: It happens to be our current top pick for best washing machine.