The comedian @RyDoon shares about his battles with depression, fear of failure, huge financial and professional setbacks (he had a huge following on Vine before it was retired), having a mother with BiPolar I, and alcohol.

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 434 with my guest, Ry Doon. Today's episode is sponsored by Gary John Bishop's highly-anticipated new book, "Stop Doing That Shit: End Self-Sabotage and Demand Your Life Back." It's available now. "Stop Doing That Shit" is a no-holds-barred guide to breaking through your self-defeating cycles and finally getting what you want out of life. "Stop Doing That Shit" is on sale now in hardcover, eBook, and audio, read by Gary John Bishop himself. Visit garyjohnbishop.com to learn more.

[00:00:32] I am Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I am a jackass. I am a buffoon. BUT, I do have a lot of experience in being a douche, and a depressed one (laughs) and engaging in addictive behavior. So maybe I can chime in here and there. This show's not meant to be a substitute for, uh, professional mental counseling, as I said. I'm not a doctor; I'm not a therapist. I am … well, what am I? Well, now I'm a podcaster, but I used to be a TV host and, uh, stand-up comedian, and I still perform every once in a while. But, enough about that.

[00:01:28] Let's get to some, um …. surveys. This is from the "What has helped you" survey. This was filled out by a woman who calls herself "Anxiety Queen," and her issue is anxiety. And, uh, what has helped you deal with it? "When I feel that monster anxiety creep up, I put on cheesy 70s music and it helps me." That's awesome. There is something about silly music that, uh, or a silly vi-, silly video that, uh, really kind of, really kind of helps. Or watching dogs be silly, which I have been doing a lot of. I dunno if I shared with you last week. I know you guys know that, uh, the regular listeners know that I adopted a, uh, stray named Gracie. And, uh, my friend who found Gracie also found her with, uh, a dog named Ron. That sounds like it should be a book: "A Dog Named Ron." But he found Ron and Gracie. They were, uh, just a couple of strays, travelling together. And, uh, this friend has been staying with me for a little while; he's going through a break-up. And, uh, so Ron, he's still trying to find a home for Ron. And, I'm not ready to have two dogs yet, so I can't, I'm not ready to, to take a dog like Ron on. Well, let me just give you a list of some of the shit Ron has torn through in the week that he has been, uh, staying here. Two yoga mats, um, a, uh, couple of packages of, uh, electrical outlets. Various shit out of the recycling bin. My favorite was a plastic tube that still smelled of peanut butter. And, boy did he, he have at that. In fact, he cleared his, his whole schedule that day. I heard him say, uh, to his secretary, "Carol, clear my schedule. I have got an appointment with a plastic tube that still smells a little bit like peanut butter." And he finished his work that day. He, uh, he put in overtime. He's been digging holes in the backyard. He will take Taylor's clothes and … (laughs) just spread 'em out in the backyard. Every morning, Taylor wakes up and, oh, what is it? What am I missing? Socks, pair of jeans, underwear, sweatshirt? Just delivered around the yard by Ron. He is such a sweet dog. He just, he … there's, there's no like malice in him. When you tell him no, he'll, he'll get low and, and roll onto his back. So it's not like he's defiant. He's just—The two of them remind me, if you've ever seen the movie "Dumb and Dumber," there's the scene where, uh, Jeff Daniels and Jim Carrey dress up in tuxedoes. And they come to this fancy event. And, they, they also have top hats and canes. And, of course, because they're a couple of idiots, they are enjoying beating each other with the canes. And they are just running around, tumbling over each other. And, and that, that's like what Ron and Gracie have been doing for … seven straight days. At least seven straight days. And, uh, the floors of my house are wood, so they're always sliding past (laughs) where they're trying to turn, bumping into shit. But they just love each other. And it, I'm feeling guilty that I'm not going to adopt Ron, but … I mean, it's ridiculous. I'm being codependent with a fucking dog. (Laughs) I want to save him, but … I have to trust that he'll find a, he'll find a good home. If not, we'll put him down. (Laughs) I'm kidding, of course, about that. And, I know there's other shit that … My whole house now is just covered in a film of dirt. (Laughs) The two of them, there's a lot of dirt in the backyard, and they just roll around in the dirt and then come—I have a little doggie dog—and they must go through that thing fifty times a day, just full speed. "Oh my god, I gotta get to the bay window! I, I forgot, I'm on watch to make sure there aren’t any toddlers (laughs) walking down the street endangering my owner." (Laughs) Continuing. Anxiety Queen writes, um, what have people said or done that has helped you? "Just hugging me and letting me know that I'm okay." It's, it's amazing how helpful such a simple act can be when, when somebody is, somebody's hurting. Just the act of just giving them a hug. And not a patronizing pat you on the back. But it just … a good "I'm here" kind of hug.

[00:06:43] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a, a woman who calls herself "One Too Many Ducks." She identifies as straight, she's in her 30s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. She's never been sexually abused, but she has been emotionally abused. She writes, "Codependent mom, alcoholic detached dad. Mom made us three girls behave, and we often felt that we had to read her mind. She didn’t beat us, but a lot of passive-aggressive neediness. Dad was physically there, but didn’t interact much. His dad committed suicide from PTSD when he was 10, and it was a relief to him because he was abused physically." Any positive experiences with people who've abused you? "I love my mom for being strong and trying, because my dad never did. I love my dad for being a sweet grandpa." That's always interesting to me when a parent comes out of their shell, or you see their nice side when they're a grandparent. And I always wonder because the pressure is off and their ego isn't attached to what their grandkid is like. Or is it that they have kind of learned from their past and now see that they weren’t really there for their kids? Or maybe it's a combination of the both. The both? The two? Both? Dar-, darkest thoughts: "I'm so tired that I often wish that I would get in a serious car wreck so I would get some rest and never have to work or be responsible again." I wonder if there's a way that you could get some rest and take a break from a couple of responsibilities just for a brief time to recharge your battery. I'm not saying like, you know … ditch your—I dunno know if she has kids or not, but … I dunno, sometimes, we get into such black and white thinking that we think, "Well, I gotta quit my job, uh, and, uh, buy a van and just live on beaches, cuz that's the only way I'm gonna be able to relax," when maybe you just need another week of vacation. Or to talk to your boss and say, "I'm feeling stressed out and overworked, and, uh, like I'm in over my head." Darkest secrets: "My niece is close in age to me, and we have had a threesome. I am sickened that alcohol has ruined my judgment. I live in fear and shame that someone could find out in my family. We both act like it's not a big deal and pretend it didn’t happened. It's the worst thing I have ever done." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I am so numb, I don't fantasize. I have sex with my boyfriend for him. I don’t orgasm. I feel like the sooner, the better, so I can roll over and sleep. I feel pathetic and dirty." You are not pathetic and you are not dirty. And, people who experience numbness around sex, um, it's, it's possible, uh—You know, one of two things pop, pop into my head that you have not processed some type of trauma and that your coping mechanism, your brain's way of protecting you from that trauma is to compartmentalize it and be numb. Or, you're asexual. But either way, you know, my, my … It's so complicated because it's reasonable that a partner has an expectation of, uh, some type of sexual connection, uh, unless stated otherwise in the beginning of the relationship. But … you also need to take care of your needs and—I hate this word, honor—but honor those feelings inside you that you don’t wanna have sex, and that you're having to check out mentally during it. That's not very loving to yourself. You know, you may be loving your boyfriend and doing that, but I think, at the very least, maybe try couple's counseling with him or start a conversation with, with him, because he probably has no idea that these things are going on inside you. But I'm sure he feels your distance. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "To my sister that was murdered by her ex-boyfriend: Why didn’t you tell me that things were bad? You were my best friend. I would have given anything to save you or hold your hand in those last moments." Wow, that is so deep. I'm so sorry for your loss, if you're listening. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish I could let go of my past and move forward." I don’t know if we can ever completely let go of our past. But I, I do know that we can process it and ease the intensity that it has over our central nervous system and … our patterns of thinking and behavior. Have you shared these things with others? "I have to people in AA. I can admit anything to a stranger because I don’t have to live in that space." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I'm crying. It feels like nothing good matters, with the scars I've had in my life." Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "There must be something to the saying that a problem shared is a problem cut in half." I never heard that phrase, but I like it. Any comments to make the podcast better? "I watched 'Dinner and a Movie' and found you somehow again. I hope to see the world in a different light, and you have given me a spark." Well, that means a lot to me. And, I just want to encourage you … to process those, those things that, that you’ve experienced and that you're still battling with. Because you deserve, you deserve to feel compassion and connection. And that can be really healing. I don’t know anybody that has been able to heal trauma in isolation. I just don't. But sending you, sending you some love.

[00:13:01] Today's episode is sponsored by Varidesk. It's the world's leading standing desk solution, helping professional maintain a healthy active lifestyle in the office or at home. Varidesk converts any desk into a standing desk and is designed with durable best-in-class materials that fit in any environment or work space. And with Varidesk, you can go easily from sitting to standing, increasing your productivity, focus, and collaboration. Varidesk comes with—That sounded like (chuckles) I, that, that, that inhale sounded like I've had it with Varidesk! I've had it with their machinations! (Chuckles). Varidesk comes with a 30-day risk-free guarantee, and there's no assembly required. They also cover shipping both ways, so if you don’t love it, they’ll pick it up. Varidesk is trusted by 98 percent of Fortune 500 companies and has over 14,000 five-star reviews from professionals all over the world. Stay focused on what matters with Varidesk. To learn more about Varidesk standing desk solutions, visit varidesk.com/workelevated. That's v-a-r-i-d-e-s-k.com/workelevated. Maximize your productivity at varidesk.com/workelevated. And, as always, I put links to, uh, any of the, uh, sponsor stuff under the show notes for this episode.

[00:14:25] Today's episode is also sponsored by our longtime sponsor, uh, and I'm so grateful for them, betterhelp.com. If you’ve never tried online counseling, I really recommend giving it a shot, especially if you live in the boonies. It's a, it's a, it's a great thing. I don’t live in the boonies, and I still love it. I love just being able to open my laptop every week and, uh, talk to my therapist for 45 minutes or an hour without having to get in the car. And, uh, it feels every bit as effective to me as in-person, uh, therapy. So, uh, if you wanna check it out, go to betterhelp.com/mental. Make sure you include the "/mental" so they know you come from the podcast and, uh, hopefully they continue to, uh, advertise with us. Then just fill out a questionnaire. They'll match you with a betterhelp.com counselor. If they can find one that they feel is, uh, um, uh, a good match for you. Then you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling in right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:15:32] And one more survey before we get to the, uh, the interview with Ry. This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Dash." She writes, "As a child, I was jealous of the boys. All of the male children I grew up with got to do things I couldn’t. In the hot, southern summer, they could run around shirtless, while I was told to cover up. Adults asked them about their favorite sports, while they asked me about my favorite dolls. Anything that I deemed 'fun' was categorized by my mother as 'unladylike.' This has always been a source of tension between us. As an adult, my understanding of what it means to be a woman has changed, yet it still differs from my mother's significantly. I spend a lot of time doing the things that I deem fun, regardless of how unladylike they may seem. This continues to disappoint my mother, who sees my lack of interest in stereotypically feminine pursuits as the reason for my tragic (chuckles) 30-something single status. She's particularly bothered by my lack of interest in makeup and fashion. While I was a student at high school, she and my father actually PAID me to wear skirts and dresses, so concerned was she with my disinterest in feminine clothing. Even now, when I visit her, she has more than enough to say about my clothing, my body, and my makeup." That is a form of, of abuse, by the way. That is toxicity at its finest. Just because there isn't, you know, yelling and throwing shit or hitting, that, that, that still, that is emotional abuse. Talk about not seeing your child for who they are and just seeing them as a, as an extension of your own ego. And sadly, that is so common. Anyway, continuing: "Not long ago, she—a devout Catholic—and I were out walking. There was a statue of the Virgin Mary up ahead, and my mother was using it as a landmark to give me directions. She said something like, "Walk ahead and turn left at the statue of the dude." "What dude," I asked. Then it dawned on me, "Do you mean the statue of Mary? That statue up ahead is a Mary statue." "Hmm. So it is," she replied. She then thought about it for a moment and added about Mary, mother of God, "She should have worn more feminine clothing."

Intro

[00:18:50] Paul: I'm here with comedian, Ry Doon, uh, who I don’t know that well. We have a mutual friend, uh, our buddy, Punchy, who's in my, uh, my support group.

Ry: Yup.

Paul: The laconic and chill Punchy.

Ry: Yeah. What, wait, what does laconic mean?

Paul: Kind of laid back man of few words.

Ry: He is. And nothing bothers him. But I'm—

Paul: I think that's what laconic means. That' what I get for trying to sound smarter than I am.

Ry: (Laughs) He's very, uh … la-, laconic. Sounds like a drink or something, for like stomach problem.

Paul: Yeah, gin and laconic. I'll have a gin and laconic.

Ry: Yeah. (Laughs) Sounds delicious.

Paul: I've met Ry doing his podcast, uh, what was it about a week ago or something like that?

Ry: Yeah. About a week, week and a half, maybe.

Paul: Yeah, But when, uh, Punchy told me that you listened to this podcast, um, I was like well, let's, let's meet and let's talk about having you on this podcast. And so here you are. And, and you battle depression. Is, uh, substance abuse a thing? I think you were saying that you … are taking a little hiatus from the booze for a bit.

Ry: Yes, I did. Substance abuse is a thing. I … totally struggle with … moderation. Once I get buzzed, I just want more. And I'm a happy drunk. Just a social drunk guy. But, I can drink until I'm dead. I never throw up. I'll black out instead. And that's where the, that, that's not fun. Just waking up and like, "Uh, uh-oh!"

Paul: (Laughs) I think it sounds like a blast. I think you're being really judgme-, no. It, uh, it sounds problematic, man. And … it probably sounds obvious, but I, I wonder if that's your way of medicating the depression, or is the depression from the drinking, or a big cycle?

Ry: A big cycle. I realized that (clears throat), when I do, when I am drunk, it eases my anxiety so much, that I'm like, "Ah, now I'm the real me." And that's like a kind of a scary though, like oh, when I'm drunk that's the real me. That, so I thought that recently. I was like, "Oh shit! I think I might have a fucking problem here." (Laughs)

Paul: What, what I have discovered with drinking and sobriety and depression and, you know, who's the real me, is that we can find a way to relax without drugs and alcohol and become the authentic us. It's not easy, but, um—So, I get it, when you talk about … most—and I'm not saying you're an alcoholic—but most alcoholics I know, we all talk about that moment when we first felt the buzz, and we felt like we had arrived. We felt like, "Oh, this must be how other people feel. This is why they laugh and smile and have fun."

Ry: That's funny. I have a distinct moment at a party in high school. Just got like a little bit buzzed (clears throat). And I was like, "Wow, this is great!" And like people were laughing. I was like, see, everyone's happy, cuz we're all drinking."

Paul: It's like a bouncy house for, for adults.

Ry: I felt like so peaceful. And I was like, hey, I'm not like scared. I'm not thinking, like, "Everyone's watching me right now."

Paul: Right!

Ry: I can be very egocentric. My anxiety is that way, as I'm sure a lot of people's is. Like the other day I almost didn’t go to Starbucks. I was gonna go to Starbucks to write some comedy, and I turned around. Cuz I—

Paul: Why?

Ry: —just started thinking like, what am I—I honestly had a thought, like—what am I, gonna go type at Starbucks? (Both laugh)

Paul: Who am I—

Ry: Right!

Paul: —all full of myself!

Ry: Yeah, right! And I was like, the baristas know me. They're just gonna be like, oh, he's writing here. I just started thinking these weird thoughts like—

Paul: That's the most normal thing, especially in Los Angeles.

Ry: (Laughs) I know, I know!

Paul: Why, why did you think that that was, uh …

Ry: I dunno.

Paul: —would draw somebody's criticism?

Ry: I don’t know. But then I, I turned around. Then I was like, I stopped. (Laughs) I went to Starbucks and wrote. So I did. But I just was like, I can't believe I'm thinking this way. Thinking like, what am I gonna do, go fucking write at Starbucks? I was like, well, yeah … almost what it's there for in LA.

Paul: Right.

Ry: (Laughs) But, it was weird.

Paul: Take advantage of their Wi-Fi, poor Starbucks!

Ry: (Laughs) Yeah. So, uh, what I did was, uh, just took my bottle of vodka and I got drunk at Starbucks. And, uh, everything was fine, and I was the real me.

Paul: (Laughs)

Ry: No, I was just kidding. Although, people drink at Starbucks quite a bit.

Paul: Oh, I'm sure.

Ry: (Laughs)

Paul: And on the sidewalk outside of Starbucks.

Ry: Yes. Yeah, that's mostly what I'm talking about.

Paul: Is it just me, or does the, um, homeless population seem to be, not only growing, but, uh, just becoming more agitated here in Los Angeles?

Ry: Yeah, I would, I would say so. My neighborhood—I'm noticing just, over the past five years, more and more homeless people. And I was just, just downtown, in downtown LA. I had to park, I had a gig near Skid Row. And I ended up kind of like in Skid Row, as the sun was going down. It was, uh—

Paul: It's an intense place.

Ry: The change from when it was daylight to getting dark, I could feel it getting scary. And even though one dude like was one a bike, he rode by me and was like, "This is Skid Row." (Laughs) And that's how I realized it was Skid Row. I was like, "Oh shit!" But. Wait, what were we talking about? Homeless people.

Paul: Homeless people. But, uh, talk about, uh, Starbucks and so you overcame, uh, the critical voice in your head that was like why are you, why are you going to Starbucks. What, uh … depression, anxiety, uh, moderation, uh, any other struggles?

Ry: I'm mostly, uh, just depressive person.

Paul: Depressive person.

Ry: More, more than anxious, too. (Clears throat) And I realized, recently, uh, the, over the past, since, since college, I have been drinking myself into depressive states. I didn’t really realize—I knew alcohol was a depressant, but I didn’t realize, even after a hangover, I would be very sad. And I'd be like, "Oh, this is just my normal depression, cuz I'm not physically hungover anymore. This is me. I'm just a sad person." But, I was fucking drinking myself into that often. And I recently took over a month off from drinking, and triggered depression without the booze. (Laughs) So I know it can come organically, just cuz that's the way I am.

Paul: It doesn’t need to be invited. That’s the thing about depression. It's, it's, uh, (laughs) it's, you don’t have to do anything sometimes to get it to come.

Ry: So that was frustrated. I was like, I'm not drinking, and I'm still getting depressed—

Paul: It's like an eager party guest. You don’t have to send an invitation.

Ry: Yeah. I'm just gonna show up. You know who—It's gonna pop in, and you know who's a pop in guy? Punchy, our friend, Adam.

Paul: Yeah?

Ry: He pops in. Don’t give him your address. (Laughs)

Paul: He'll just, he'll just pop, pop by?

Ry: He probably wouldn’t for you, but once you get to a certain level, yeah, he's gonna pop in. And nothing bothers him. It doesn’t, it … Sorry, where gonna go on a tangent about our friend. But—

Paul: No, that's all good.

Ry: I just wanted to say, fuck you, Adam! Call me first! All right, that's really all I wanted to say—

Paul: Maybe it's time to set some boundaries with him

Ry: (Laughs) Boundr-, boundaries! I've talking about that with my therapist. I have issues with boundaries. (Clears throat) Like with my girlfriend—we're on break right now, actually; we broke up. But, I would just always respond to her texts, even when she was texting me too much. And I told her please, we gotta stop texting. I would always respond to her. I dunno, I just didn’t set a boundary of when to communicate with her. And it put a big strain on us, actually.

Paul: Right. And so, you didn’t follow it up with any consequences.

Ry: No! (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah.

Ry: No.

Paul: That's—yeah, there's not teeth in a boundary that, that, that has no consequences. It’s cuz … Yeah, I find that when I try to set a boundary, if I don’t have anything to back it up, um, that person's generally not gonna listen or respect it. And it may not be out of any kind of malice, where they're like, "Well, fuck what he wants." It's more like, "No, I know, I know what's best for him. So I'm just gonna keep suggesting that, you know, he read this book," or, you know, whatever it is.

Ry: Yeah, totally. Yup. So, I gotta be better at boundaries and stuff. But, one big cause of my depression, which is something I have, been having to get, get through the past … since it's been happening is, uh, my mom is, uh, has bipolar I. So I was in a household with—

Paul: That's a biggin, bipolar I.

Ry: Bipolar I, yep. She's not bipolar II. (Laughs)

Paul: She's not Electric Boogaloo. She's bipolar I.

Ry: She's the real deal. So that accompanied emotional abuse and just confusing times. Like, I grew up in a, kind of upper-middle class, small town near Cape Cod. And I'd never heard of bipolar before. Our town was so small. Everyone knew each other. I had to keep everything a secret from everybody. Would have to be like, "Oh, my mom, uh, had a like a minor heart attack. Everything's fine!" But, she was actually in a mental hospital, stuff like that.

Paul: Oh, wow! What, what age did that start?

Ry: She started (sighs), she was in and out of hospitals … How old was she?

Paul: How old were YOU when it came on your radar that mom has mental struggles?

Ry: It would pop up here and there when I was a little kid. Remember, there was one day, I think I was like six or seven, my mom was like, she would have rage. I would never see her be like crazy/manic. She, she wo-, she would be manic, but mostly what I saw was depression and rage. So she was just like screaming at my dad one day. I just remem-, remember thinking like, "This is not normal, and I'm scared." Everyone's crying.

Paul: I know, I know sometimes with mania, there can be irritability along with the euphoria. And, um, I, I wonder if that was separate from the man-, mania, irritability, uh, with her and it was just something else? But, um, regardless, we, um, we don’t need to pathologize it. I'm just kind of thinking out loud here.

Ry: Yeah. That makes sense.

Paul: Give me some snapshots from, uh, childhood. Give me, give me some stories.

Ry: Before I do, I will so though, my mom was a success story. She's doing, she's doing a lot better. She's living a, a good life. So that's good. So that, it makes me feel more comfortable talking about this. (Laughs) If I was just like, "My mom's a bitch; fuck her! Let's, let's tear her down," but no, my mom is awesome. And, I love you, Mom! She's not listening though (laughs), which is good. Anyway, some snapshots. Well, I had a great childhood. (Clears throat) My mom was healthy for most of my childhood. But, she was obsessive with my school, my education. And I have ADD, ADHD. Just her being so intense about school. There was one time in fifth grade, I deleted a book report by mistake. I just didn’t save it correctly. She flipped out, screaming. And I'm just like crying. Then I look back, as an adult, thinking like, "What the fuck! It's a fifth grader's book report. It's like not a big deal." So that was part of a rage, maybe irritability. Other times, got darker.

Paul: But, before you go to the other ones, I, I just wanna talk about that one for, for a second. What do you think … it was about that that upset her so much? Was she a "We gotta good, good grades so you can have a good job? So you can have a successful—" or what do the neighbors, was she overly concerned with what the neighbors kind of thought, or what?

Ry: I think she internalized my struggles with school. And like really, it was almost like she was, she, it was almost like she was the one who deleted a, the book report, or like she also had a test to study weeks in advance for, for hours a night.

Paul: So, she had difficulty seeing you individuate from her.

Ry: Yeah, I guess-

Paul: She sees you as an extension of her.

Ry: Yes.

Paul: Yeah, that's, that's a LOAD on a kid. That is a LOAD emotionally on a kid.

Ry: Yeah, it was intense, and it made me hate school. And I also, she never told me "You're stupid," but I concluded that I was stupid. Because I was going in to see like, uh, ADD doctors and stuff. Was taking Adderall (clears throat), which I—

Paul: Did it help?

Ry: Yeah, but I ha-, it flattened my personality so much that I just, uh, would lie and just say I took it. And then, fun part of that, my mom started taking my Adderall. She got addicted to it, heavily addicted. That's when her rage REALLY came out. This was when I was in high school. And that's where she, that's when she said most, her most hurtful things. She's like screaming to me like, "You're a big failure in life! Your father and I fight because of YOU!" It was like, "You …" just, I dunno, just saying—

Paul: What'd that feel like?

Ry: Made me feel … dead. Just like—

Paul: You just shut down.

Ry: Yeah. I did. I remember it was on our way to see my psychiatrist. I, in retrospect, she was probably jonesing for Adderall, maybe withdrawing. And yeah, it was just a bad car ride. I wanted to, uh, jump out of the car. Which, fun fact, my mom did that once during, during one of her ma-, uh, I don’t know if it was manic, just one of her breakdowns, jumped out of a moving car.

Paul: Sedan, luxury coupe, pick-up truck, Mini Cooper?

Ry: (Laughs) I'm gonna guess—Her friend had a Caravan.

Paul: Yeah, minivan. That's an UGLY car to do such a traumatic move from

Ry: Right? It's not that badass.

Paul: It's—No. You don’t look that tough coming out of a minivan.

Ry: No. (Laughs) So, yeah, she got her Adderall addiction, which I didn’t know about until recently. I talked to her about—

Paul: Do you know how much she was taking at that (unintelligible)?

Ry: No, I don't. I should have asked that. I can still ask her. Another snapshot is … haunts me, as if it is an actual snapshot of my mom's attempted suicide a few times, one of which I knew about because I walked in on her, uh, overdosing on her medication. She like swallowed all her pills. So, I, I think I was like 14 or 15. And at that period of my life, I was gumming, coming home from school trying to pre-, pre-, prepare myself. So like my mom might have killed herself today. Let's go see if she's around still.

Paul: Woooow! Oh man—

Ry: (Laughs) Yeah, it's crazy! I was never like, this really, really could happen. I just … It's hard to explain. I just know it, it, it actually could happen. But it wasn’t like every day, I was like here we go. It was just like, this is a reality that—

Paul: Like anything could happen in your household. And so … it wasn’t ridiculous to think of something and go, "I wouldn’t be surprised!"

Ry: And if she was so unhappy and so miserable, I was like, yeah, she might fucking kill herself.

Paul: And so, you walk in. And …

Ry: Walk in, see her on her bed. She's like foaming at the mouth kind of. It was more like chalk. Just having trouble breathing. Another uncomfortable thing, which is just so uncomfortable still to this day, she, uh, defecated her pants. She just lost control of her bowels. Makes sense. (Clears throat) And I was just like, "Mom, wha-, what did you do?" She was just like moaning. And, I could tell that she probably took pills. The first thing I did, which I feel a little bit ashamed about, was I called my dad—

Paul: Why?

Ry: —instead of an ambulance. I was just freaking out—

Paul: You were a high school kid.

Ry: Yeah, I guess so. Oh, I thought you said why did I call my dad. (Laughs)

Paul: No! Why are you, why are you shaming yourself. (Both laugh) You're a high school kid, man.

Ry: That's so funny. Yeah, yeah, I know.

Paul: This is heartbreaking shit, man! No wonder you're depressed.

Ry: (Laughs)

Paul: Dude! Wanna give you a hug, man!

Ry: Oh, thanks, dude! (Laughs) I called my dad and was just like, "Mom, mom's overdosing or something." I forget what I said. I just, I explained what was going on. He was like, "All right. Call, call an ambulance." So I just called an ambulance. They came. And, the am-, one of the EMTs called, called it in—she was in a wheelchair—was like, "We got a possible suicide attempt." When he said that—My sister had to come home from work. My sister started bawling, crying. When he said, when I heard like an official EMT call in possible suicide attempt, I was like, "Holy shit! This is real."

Paul: What, what do you remember thinking or feeling in that moment?

Ry: I … entered, I was actually really impressed with how I handled it. I entered a state of … just like, I need to be in control. I need to be calm. I don’t know how I did it. I think, probably as a defense mechanism, I kind of like shut down. But, I was very calm. Even like … my mom, I saw my mom in the wheelchair; she even like laughed. I think she had a moment, thinking like this is so ridiculous. So like I laughed (laughs), as my mom's going in the ambulance. And then immediately afterwards, I … uh, started setting up a tent, cuz I was going camping that weekend. I just immediately made myself busy, which I don't know, I don’t know if that the healthiest thing to do. But, uh, a landscaper was landscaping my, my place. And I worked with him, uh, a few summers later. This guy is just not a very smart dude. Socially not very skilled. So he walks up to me, he saw my mom get in the ambulance. He was like, "Oh, your mom's really fucked up, huh?" (Laughs)

Paul: Wow.

Ry: And in that moment, I improvised. I was like, "Oh, yeah, she's, uh, low on insulin." (Laughs) He was like, he was just like, "Oh, okay." So I was like, hey, that's a good, good improv right there. I don’t know if it scientifically makes any sense, but—

Paul: It, it's always a mind-boggling, people that have no sense of what is appropriate or inappropriate to say where there's like a tragedy or something really painful.

Ry: That, it made me so angry. I didn’t show him my anger, but I was just like, that fucking asshole! (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah. I was, I was, uh … There was a, a comic that had tried to kill himself, and he had swallowed, uh, Drano. And, this manager—We were all, we were at, I dunno, some comedy festival. And we were all riding in like a van on the way to the, to the theater. And, this manager, in front of like everybody, said, "Oh, yeah. Didn't you like try to kill yourself or something?"

Ry: Oh my god! (Laughs)

Paul: And I just remember thinking like, "I know this other comedian, and I've never brought it up—"

Ry: Right.

Paul: "—with him," because I don’t, at that point, I didn’t know what to say. Nowadays, I might, you know, ask how he's doing without saying something like that. But, yeah. I, I just, uh …

Ry: It's bizarre.

Paul: Bizarre. So anyways, so back to, back to, um, that, that situation. I mean, I, I was just trying to picture what it would be like. And … it just, like the first word that came to my mind was numbness. That it would just be so overwhelming, it would almost feel like you were your body.

Ry: Yeah. I think I was so calm … immediately afterwards. I had a little freak out when I found her. Then I was so calm. Never, didn't cry. And then I went camping that weekend with a friend. Had laughed some of the hardest I've ever laughed.

Paul: About unrelated—

Ry: Unrelated stuff. It was, I was almost scared of like, how am I able to detach myself so much from this?

Paul: It probably saved you, that ability to do that as a, as a kid.

Ry: I guess so, yeah.

Paul: Did you, when your sister broke down and cried, did you, or have you ever, when she breaks down and cries and you shut down, have you ever wished that you could react like her?

Ry: Yeah. May—

Paul: Talk about that.

Ry: Yeah. I, for a while, during those years—that's when I started getting depressed and stuff, and also earlier, with puberty just, it's my natural, it's what I do, I get depressed. (Chuckles) I would barely ever get angry. When I was in high school I was just a flat, practically emotionless person. Nothing would real-, even really bother me. It was we-, it was strange. And my mom would even ask, when she was in a healthier stare, ask me like, "How come you never get mad?" (Laughs) It's strange.

Paul: I wonder if there's a relationship, too, between like your difficulty concentrating and your need to escape the pain of reality as a kid. You know, I, I, I sometimes wonder if, uh, dissociating isn't sometimes misdiagnosed as, as ADD or ADHD. I mean, I probably shouldn’t even be talking about this because I'm, I'm not a mental health professional, I'm not a fucking doctor, but—

Ry: This is more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. (Both laugh)

Paul: But, when thoughts pop in to my head about the overlap on some things, I just feel like this, like I wanna just throw those questions out, out there. Because I do see a similarity between, um, attention deficit and dissociating. Not the kind of dissociating where, you know, it's like … a personality disorder where you wake and you're like, "How did I get the, the … these green pants on and I'm suddenly in the Netherlands?" I dunno why I pronounced it Netherlands. (Both laugh)

Ry: The Netherlands.

Paul: Does that make, does that make sense?

Ry: Yeah. I think I know what you're saying. Yeah. I dunno. I still don't know how I was, like I didn’t try to like, I'm choosing to dissociate. I don’t know, it just happened. But, then afterwards, depression came in. And I just didn’t enjoy life. I was recently depressed last week, went through depression. Still coming out of it.

Paul: I can see it in your eyes.

Ry: Really?

Paul: Yeah. And I, and I actually, uh, was experiencing it when we recorded—

Ry: Oh, really?

Paul: —your podcast. And I could see it in your eyes as well. I can see depression. And—

Ry: Really?

Paul: —and, um—Well, I, let me, if it's in somebody's eyes, I recognize it.

Ry: Yeah.

Paul: Yes. It's—

Ry: I don’t think I'm—

Paul: —there's a, there's like a, almost like a glassy, kid of, uh … I dunno. It, it's hard to describe. But, it, uh, it's a look I'm very, very familiar with.

Ry: Interesting. I feel like I'm not that good at noticing visibly, noticing depression. My therapist told, she was like, "I can see you're depressed." (Laughs) I was like, "Damn! Just by looking at me? Fuck!" (Laughs) But, yeah, just, just last week, had the thoughts again: I'm sad. Most of my life has been sad. The rest of my life is going to be mostly sad. Everyone's sad. Life is sad. (Chuckles) And I know that that, I know that's the depression talking. But I was like, no, I believe it. I fucking believe it right now.

Paul: It feels so really when you're in it. And how old are you?

Ry: Twe-, thirty-five. (Laughs)

Paul: Thirty-five.

Ry: Almost said 25.

Paul: I'll shave 10 years off, if you don’t mind.

Ry: Okay, yeah—

Paul: Let's call you 25.

Ry: Twenty-five-year-old Ry Doon.

Paul: Anybody wants to fight us on this, come at us with what you’ve got.

Ry: (Laughs) Come at me, bro!

Paul: So … when you're in a place like you are now, in the sadness, how do you, how do … what are the ways that you cope? You're not drinking—

Ry: I drank—

Paul: You are seeing a therapist.

Ry: I drank this weekend.

Paul: Oh, you did.

Ry: It wasn't like a, I need a drink. It was like, I'm gonna have three beers tonight. I've a buddy's bachelor party next week, so I think I'm making excuses. I'm gonna drink there. I dunno. I was just like, let's just like … practice. (Laughs) But, to cope with depression, a new thing in the past year, after going to, through therapy, I finally let myself be depressed. And the, mostly let myself isolate and stay in bed all day IF I feel like I have to. In the past, I, I thought that was a bad thing to do. I thought it was detrimental to your mental health, if you stayed in bed all day. That's what one doctor had told my mom. She's like even if you're depressed, get up and go to work. That was just what one doctor gave for my mom specifically. But I took that and was like, oh, that must be general psychology. So I would … A new thing of coping is letting myself be sad. Staying inside.

Paul: I'm a believer, I believer in, I'm a believer in that one, not denying whatever your ral-, reality is, and meeting yourself where you are.

Ry: Um-hmm. Exercise, of course, helps. I hate going to the gym, but I do love being outside.

Paul: So you do some exercises in your bed.

Ry: (Laughs) Yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: You do some roll-ups.

Ry: Yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: Push-up are fucking tough, cuz you just sink in.

Ry: Yeah, yeah, it is. It's a good workout. The bed gets all sweaty, but, hey, when I'm in a depressive state, my apartment's disgusting. So—

Paul: That’s right. You're not gonna do laundry anyway. So who gives a shit?

Ry: I love that depressed person smell in a bedroom. (Laughs)

Paul: The, the, um—And there is a smell to depression that—

Ry: You said it one time on this podcast. I'm a huge fan—By the way, everyone listening, I'm one of you. Hi!

Paul: (Laughs)

Ry: Good, good, good to be, good to be sad with you. (Both laugh)

Paul: Yes. I've smelled it in my own clothes. I smelled it on my own sheets. It's just, uh, laundry that's overdue. You can smell that, just a shirt that's been worn a couple too many days.

Ry: Oh, yeah!

Paul: Sheets that haven’t been washed in three weeks.

Ry: The sheets!

Paul: Yeah.

Ry: Yeah.

Paul: Um—

Ry: Also, another thing I did to cope. You—I listen to this podcast. So I'll go on walks, listen to this. When I was going through heartache, over a year ago, I listened specifically—As I was heartbroken, you uploaded the episode, uh, with Guy Winch—

Paul: Oh, great episode!

Ry: And I was like, "Holy shit! This is, he's, Paul is speaking to me!" (Both laugh) And that helped so much. I also bought a book from one of your guests.

Paul: Do you remember which one?

Ry: Yeah, uh … SHIT!

Paul: Dr.—

Ry: "21 Days to a Happier Depression."

Paul: OH! Seth Swirsky?

Ry: Yes. Is that his name?

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Right on.

Ry: So I read that. And it helped me lift up a little bit. There was one day where I went skiing—I love skiing. So I went, my therapist assigned this to me. She was like, go skiing.

Paul: Where'd you go?

Ry: I went to Big Bear.

Paul: Awesome!

Ry: Fully depressed. (Laughs)

Paul: Did it help?

Ry: It did, yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah!

Ry: It, it hel-, it was weird. I was so depressed, that it wasn't make-, really making me like happy. It did, but then I get emotional about how much I love skiing. So I started crying on the chairlift. (Both laugh) And it … it's great. I, I love the fear of skiing. I went off the big jump. And it, it felt like stand-up, doing stand-up. Before a gig, you're nervous. And like this, I could get hurt out there. This was like approaching a jump, like oh shit, here we go! In mid-air, it's peaceful, like if you're having good sex, like all right, sweet, we're in it. then afterwards, like my ego comes out. I don’t express it outwardly, but in my head I'm like fuck yeah! (Both laugh) I feel like adrenaline, like fuck yeah! I'm the fucking man! Cuz (unintelligible), very good skier! Level 3 expert, okay! (Laughs)

Paul: Are you really?

Ry: (Laughs) I (laughs), technically a level 3, but I'm joking about being cocky. But, for real, I shred, dude.

Paul: Yeah?

Ry: I fucking shred the (unintelligible)—

Paul: And you get air?

Ry: I get air, dude. I can do big air, 360s, it's sick.

Paul: WHAT?!

Ry: (Laughs) Yep.

Paul: Oh my god!

Ry: On day, it'll … I'm shocked I haven’t broken a bone skiing.

Paul: That's amazing you haven’t broken a bone yet.

Ry: I hurt my, uh, ankle. I went to, uh, Mammoth this past winter. Hurt my ankle. Still hurts, so—

Paul: Were, were, were—

Ry: —I'm getting there! (Laughs)

Paul: Were they getting a lot of snow when you were there?

Ry: Holy shit! I think—

Paul: I wonder if we were up there the same time.

Ry: I think you went skiing at a similar time.

Paul: Yeah.

Ry: But, goddamn! I, I rented my friend's, uh, motorhome, 30-foot RV. And I just went, subleted my apartment to a friend, went to Mammoth for like a month.

Paul: You drove the RV up there or you rented it up there?

Ry: I drove it up. Just me and my cat. Adam came for the first two days—our friend, Punchy.

Paul: Sweet!

Ry: I—Two blizzards. I was snowed in for like a total of three days. Totally snowed in. I went a little crazy. (Both laugh)

Paul: I had experienced being on like an awesome mountain skiing, and not being so depressed that I can't even feel it. I can't even enjoy it.

Ry: Really?

Paul: Like the invigoration of moving, you know, I can feel that, but not even getting the endorphins, you know, afterwards. It's, it's, it's frustrating.

Ry: Wow, yeah. That's … the … annoying part of depression. You're just like, I just need to boost myself up a little bit. Lift me out of this.

Paul: Right.

Ry: I mean, you're trying stuff and it doesn’t work. Yeah, frustrating.

Paul: What are some of the fucked up things that help you when you're depressed?

Ry: What do you mean?

Paul: Well, you know, for me, like, uh, watching, uh, a dark documentary about tragedy or playing "Civilization" for eight hours.

Ry: In (clears throat) my most recent depression last week, watching survival stories. Specifically "I Shouldn't Be Alive."

Paul: Yes!

Ry: So captivating. And I feel like it makes me … like, I'm rooting for this person to live. It's good to see someone wanting live so bad. So I think it's like, all right, I can do this.

Paul: Yeah! I, I, I never occurred to me. But I went through an obsessive phase, uh, in the late 90s, early 2000s, where I was DEVOURING books about people, uh, struggling to survive on mountain tops or on ships and stuff like that. And it led to me eventually learning, uh, how to mountain climb. But I didn’t understand what it was about. And, as you mention that now, I was like, I guess I wanted to see myself. And that's the closest I could approximate with somebody battling physically what I was battling internally.

Ry: Yeah.

Paul: That makes sense! You’ve just solved the riddle!

Ry: You're happy now! You can stop doing this podcast! (Both laugh) You're welcome, dude; I'll, I'll take over.

Paul: So … binging, uh, "I Shouldn’t Be Alive." What, what are some other things?

Ry: Also, eating. Candy. With the lack of alcohol, I was craving candy like crazy.

Paul: Oh, yeah!

Ry: And sometimes I allowed myself to do it. It, but moderation with candy, I'll just buy way too much candy and eat it all, even if I'm not hungry.

Paul: Here's, here's something I've never heard somebody say out loud. "I'm going to buy a moderate amount of candy." (Both laugh)

Ry: Yeah, right. That is literally the first time those combination of words have been said.

Paul: Yeah. It's almost like a gate that opens and is just a dam of wa-, like I'm gonna buy candy? Like if I decide I'm going to buy ice cream, I'm getting six pints of different flavors of ice cream.

Ry: It's like me with drinking. Once I get buzzed—

Paul: Right!

Ry: —I might as well get drunk.

Paul: Right! If you're gonna do it—

Ry: And if I'm drunk, might as well get some pizza late night.

Paul: That's right. (Both laugh)

Ry: And then the next day, I'm just like fuck, I did it again!

Paul: So how are you with shaming yourself when—

Ry: BAD!

Paul: Yeah.

Ry: I shame myself VERY easily. And—

Paul: Even around your depression.

Ry: Yes.

Paul: And what you're d-, "doing right or not doing right."

Ry: Yes. With the candy, eating, I do consciously think I'm allowed to do some stress eating or whatever you might call it.

Paul: Or lay in bed. You know, I … I think of it as the flu for your soul and your brain. And why would you shame yourself if you had the, the, you know, the flu for your body?

Ry: Yeah. I know. I try to, I try to do that. I'm good with that when it comes to sleeping. I've allowed my—Your podcast has helped me do that. Cuz I've heard you talk about it, sleeping until one, and just like being it's okay.

Paul: Yeah. If you're exhausted, fucking sleep.

Ry: One thing that's … frustrating is this, the reality that talking about depression is often awkward. Like I told my, I was on a, on my way to a gig in Long Beach, uh, last week. My buddy was in the car. He was just like, "How've you been?" So I was, I was like, "Uh. Actually, currently depressed, but …" And he was like, "Oh, shit." And then I was awkward.

Paul: Yeah.

Ry: But if I said like, "Ah, I got a sore throat," he'd be like, "Bummer! I hate sore throats." (Laughs)

Paul: It's, mental illness, uh, makes a lot of people uncomfortable. They don’t know—And, you know, it's like, almost like a minor form of death, that they just don't—If they haven’t experienced it, they don’t have any experience, they don’t know what to say. It's, uh … I imagine it's very, very awkward.

Ry: Yeah. And that's why … I, I'm, I'm a big fan of you, one reason. Remember when on my podcast, I said you're a good role model? (Laughs) And you were like, "That makes me so uncomfortable." (Laughs)

Paul: Did I say that? (Laughs)

Ry: (Laughs) Yeah! (Both laugh) But, uh—

Paul: I am very flattered, by the way.

Ry: You're … you're a real dude. You're not, like I think of other male role models. There's The Rock. I joked on the podcast that you're just like The Rock.

Paul: People get me mixed up with him all the time.

Ry: I know. I figured out—

Paul: I'll hear, "DWAYNE! DWAYNE!" And I have to turn around: (in a whisper) "I'm not Dwayne."

Ry: (Laughs) It’s me, Paul Gilmartin. You're, uh, yeah, you're a real dude … Like The Rock. He's huge. He's a hard worker. He, he … he has talked about depression. But he's not relatable to me. Like I don’t see myself in him at all.

Paul: Like Tony Robbins. Look at Tony Robbins, like that guy might as well be from another planet. That get up and do it kind of shit.

Ry: And I find that to be demotivating, if that's a word—

Paul: ABSOLUTELY!

Ry: It backfires on me. I don’t (laughs) … Then there's Gary Vaynerchuk, who I know personally. And he's, he's a entrepreneur who's, who's getting kind of into the motivational speaking realm. (Sighs) Can't do it, man. He, he makes me wanna quit. (Laughs) When he's preaching like, "Work hard! Work your ass off every day," it makes me want to do the opposite. (Laughs)

Paul: Right.

Ry: I'm like, too hard! Not gonna do it!

Paul: You know what I would love to hear, is a motivational speech, "Give yourself unconditional love every day. Be gentle with yourself. Give something your best shot, but it's okay if it's … you know, not what you had hoped it would be."

Ry: And I think it, that form of motivation, it's fine. It's just not for me. Doesn’t work on me. I don’t think he's a bad per-, they're bad people—

Paul: I think they're monsters.

Ry: (Laughs) Fuck, there's something I was gonna say. Gary V., motivation. I forget.

Paul: You were talking about what a ho-, a role model I am.

Ry: Oh, that's right, yes. OH! Here's what I wanted to say. I had gotten—Whenever I talk about depression on social media, I get a big response. And (clears throat) … I find myself in a position to kind of be a role model.

Paul: You have a lot of followers on Twitter. You got like a hundred thousand followers or something like that?

Ry: Yeah. I was like a Vine guy. I had 3.8 million followers on Vine.

Paul: You're not doing it anymore?

Ry: Vine's gone.

Paul: Well, then it would be hard. (Both laugh)

Ry: It's very hard to do these days. That was, that caused major depression in me.

Paul: I bet!

Ry: It's just, all of a sudden, Twitter's like, hey, uh, you know, you're, everything … the reason you're successful? We're gonna cancel it. (Laughs)

Paul: Wow!

Ry: But, in the same sense, it's a blessing, cuz it's like being on a hit TV show for three years and it gets cancelled. I was getting millions and millions of views for a solid three years. And then it went away. And, I'm still coming back from it, still trying to mentally come back from that.

Paul: What are the thoughts and the feelings that associate with, are associated with that?

Ry: It's, I've, I, self-doubt, I think. I sometimes think I'm not gonna make it. I'm not funny enough. I'm just not gonna make it. Failure. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna fail. I am failing. I already have failed. It’s gonna continue. (Laughs) Theses are very, uh, helpful thoughts, you know.

Paul: Dude, I relate. I relate to that feeling.

Ry: And, I've recently got interested in, I'm looking into grad school, get my masters in psychology. Right now, it's just an idea. But, I wanna help people. When people say like, you're hilarious, I like that. That's what I'm going for. I'm trying to be funny, usually. But the more meaningful messages is, I'm sure you got a TON of just like, "Thank you for talking about this. You, like it's so refreshing to hear somebody like you talk about this. Just thank you, You’ve helped me a lot." Those messages mean, they're just more important to me.

Paul: Yeah. You know, having a sense of meaning and purpose in, in your life is … such an important thing. I, I just think it's, it's genetically within us to want to find our meaning or our purpose. And, very often—this sounds like a cliché—but our biggest stumbling blocks can be the very thing that leads us to find a meaning and a purpose in our life. But going back to the, you know, the letdown after, uh, Vine going away, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to fail, I'm never going to make it, uh, you know. What, what does making it look like?

Ry: Great question. I was making it, and for me it meant making good money. To put is shallow, uh, shallowly—if that's a word—being praised. I was getting like public praise like all day, every day. "You're hilarious!" Getting recognized a lot. Fame was a sign of success. I was always very conscious, like, "Don’t let this go to your head." Like be a … like, cuz I know like fame can like fuck people up. And I, what I would always say like this is going to go away. I always considered ba-, like Vine to be like a boy band. (Both laugh) Cuz us Viners, we had the boy band fans; it was like teenage girls. And I was like, boy bands last three to five years. I was like, "All right, my Vine career's gonna be like three to five years." And I, I KNEW it. I called it. But even when it went away, it was still, wasn’t ready for it. I didn’t think it would be deleted, like the whole app would be gone. Lost my manager, lost my agent. It was just, had a bad year after Vine went down.

Paul: And did, uh, drinking, uh pick up then? How did you cope with … the feelings? Did you isolate? Did you drink? Or did you …

Ry: Yeah, isolate, drink. I just lived life with panic. (Laughs) I fa-, I did feel a little bit liberated, because in the comedy community, I was like I no longer have, I'm no longer, I won't be known as like the Vine guy who also's trying stand-up. So it was kinda, I kinda liked that. I felt more free to talk about stuff on stage.

Paul: Had you not done stand-up until the Vine thing took off?

Ry: No. I started stand-up three months before Vine came out. Started in Boston. Heard about Vine from Joe Rogan's podcast. And, within three months of doing stand-up, I had a ton of followers and I was getting, I was gaining fame. And I was (laughs), I was a terrible comedian. So my first year of comedy, sometimes college kids—

Paul: Oh, other comics love that! (Both laugh)

Ry: Yeah. Yeah, people kinda hated me sometimes. Other people were cool. But like I'd be at an open mic in Boston—tons of colleges. Some college kids would walk in and be like, "Gasp! Holy shit! That's Ry Doon." And then I suck. (Both laugh) I didn't have a big stage of being anonymous. So that is a downfall. But, yeah, I think that concludes that thought. (Laughs) I feel like my ADD is BAD today.

Paul: Dude, we are not a good match.

Ry: (Laughs)

Paul: We are (laughs), we are two guys that are gonna need help to get out of the woods. Cuz—

Ry: Dude, we gotta start a podcast together. (Laughs)

Paul: We (laughs), and, uh, we gotta go camping and what were we talking about? (Both laugh) So, ways that you cope, uh, ways that you got through that, that time.

Ry: Still, still getting through it.

Paul: Still getting through it.

Ry: Therapy, I started therapy a, a little over a year ago.

Paul: That's good.

Ry: (Clears throat) Um-hmm.

Paul: Has it helped?

Ry: Yes. Not as much as I want. (Laughs) What else do I do?

Paul: Have you ever considered seeing a psychiatrist?

Ry: I see a psychiatrist. I'm also on, I take 20 milligrams of Paxil, 20 milligrams of Buspar, uh, once a day. I, it's weird—

Paul: And, did, did you keep your shrink updated on how you're feeling?

Ry: Yeah.

Paul: Okay. Cuz that's really, really important. That's something that I often did not do.

Ry: I don’t do it enough, now that you say it actually. I didn’t realize, I kinda didn’t realize that she was there for therapy, she could be used for therapy as well as drugs.

Paul: They typically are not great talk therapists.

Ry: Yeah.

Paul: I, I always have a therapist and a psychiatrist. And I'm super fortunate that I can. I'm able to do that. But I would … I'm sure you will relate to this: when you're depressed, one of the biggest challenges is finding the words to express what it is that you're feeling, or how your week has been. "Oh, well, there was a day that the sandwich tasted kind of good. And then I thought that this was all a waste of time, and eventually it's a black nothingness."

Ry: (Laughs)

Paul: "How do ya," you know. "And then, I was excited cuz 'The Sopranos' was coming on.

Ry: It's so hard to explain. I've still have never been able to explain what my depression feels like. I hear people try to explain it on, uh, through your surveys and stuff. Well, not, that sounded almost condescending. "I've heard people try on your silly, little podcast." (Both laugh)

Paul: I didn’t take it that way. It's, it's a really difficult thing. It's like trying to describe fog to, you know, somebody that's—

Ry: To an idiot! (Both laugh) Somebody that's stupid.

Paul: Yes.

Ry: I've heard people say like it's like a weight. I, I agree. Like even right now, I don’t know what words to say. There is, when my depression was the worst, a little over a year ago, it hurt to stand up and be in, be in my living room. I was like, try to get out of bed. My eyes, I was like squinting. My face, like making a pain face.

Paul: Yeah, your skin almost kind of hurts. Just to move and be active almost feels like it—

Ry: But it's so confusing, cuz it doesn’t actually hurt, but it does? (Laughs)

Paul: I think one of the closest ones, for me, to describe it is that the smallest activities feel like jumping into a cold pool as I, as I contemplate taking out the garbage. It's the same as, there's a 30-degree pool, and you have to jump in it and swim for a minute.

Ry: (Laughs) I've never thought of it like that.

Paul: That's what it feels like. Like it's just, I, it's so hard to psyche myself up to do laundry. To make a phone call.

Ry: Oh god. I'm bad with, that gives me long, a lot of anxiety. I'm bad with like … texting people. Emails, I let pile up. That's fun. But, ye-, uh …

Paul: How high has your mail gotten before?

Ry: You should see how many texts I have right now. I'm, it doesn’t bother me, having (unintelligible) texts. I have like 700 un-, unopened texts right now. If I see a text and I don’t have to open it to read the whole thing, I'll just leave it. (Laughs) Right now, I probably have 6,000 unopened emails.

Paul: Wow!

Ry: Yeah! I'm a popular guy, Paul, but also rude, so I will not respond to you. (Laughs)

Paul: But 5,000 of them are from a guy in, uh, Ethiopia that has a great deal for you.

Ry: (Laughs) Yes. I respond to those. So, those are, those are open—

Paul: Those are pressing.

Ry: Anything important, I don’t open. No, I get a lot of like bullshit mail as, I'm sure you do, too. Spam and stuff like that.

Paul: What are some nice things you, you tell yourself, if any, when you're struggling?

Ry: (Pauses) I, I guess, may-, maybe like it's okay to feel this way. But I never think like, "Hey, you're actually a good guy. It's like, you can do this." I'll just be like, "I'm depressed, and that's okay." That's about as nice as I get. But I never, it's never even dawned on me to like think like, "Hey, maybe I should think like, hey, people like you, Ry!" I never think that way, I just think, "Life is sad. I'm gonna be sad forever." (Both laugh) And then, suicidal ideation, as well. Sometimes it just feels good to think about it.

Paul: It’s, it's nice. It's, it's comforting to know that there's an exit. I hate to say that out loud, but it's the, it's the truth. I don’t recommend it to anybody, and I'm glad I never did it. But, when things get really bad for me, um, it would be worse if I thought to myself, you know, there is no way out.

Ry: Right. Yeah. It's good to know. So if all else fails, kill yourself! (Both laugh)

Paul: Well, thanks for tuning it!

Ry: But in, as I come out of this depression, (unintelligible) having the ideation anymore. I, I thought about killing myself to just like see if it would still feel good. And it was, the good feeling of it was gone. And I almost miss the therapeutic feeling of like, uh, picturing myself killing myself. Isn't that weird? It's, uh, therapeutic. (Laughs)

Paul: No, dude I get it. I get it.

Ry: But that feeling, I couldn't do it anymore recently. And I was like, I was kinda like, "Ah, man!" But I was like, "Hey, wait! No, this is good!" (Laughs)

Paul: I had another question for you. (Pauses) Have you ever looked at yourself—probably not—as a warrior for what you have dealt with in your life and what you currently deal with?

Ry: Every morning. No! Kind of actually, yeah.

Paul: Yeah?

Ry: I do—

Paul: Talk about that.

Ry: I feel like I'm kind of a badass for going through what I've gone through.

Paul: You are, dude!

Ry: But even as I just said that, I wanted to follow it up with like, "But people have much bigger problems than me." But, I dunno, I guess—

Paul: And they're also warriors.

Ry: Yeah. I do, yeah. Like life is hard. And to be a happy, nice person, yeah, that means you're a warrior. (Laughs) So, yeah, I do, I do consider myself kind of a badass.

Paul: Yeah, anybody can take their shit out on everybody else. But, to battle these and to try to be a decent human being—

Ry: And, uh, when my mom was in mental hospital, when I was in high school, I was—I'm really impressed—I was a badass in high school, with the shit I was going through then. But I had a thought—I was in a band with Adam, Punchy. (Laughs) You should just call this the Punchy episode. And I thought like, "Hey, this sucks, but it's probably gonna make me a better musician. It's like, I'm gonna write some awesome lyrics one day." And now I talk about it in my comedy. But I was always impressed, like wow, I can't believe I'm seeing the value in this. And I do think people who have struggles, makes you much more interesting. Much more interesting person.

Paul: And you can show up for other people in a way that somebody who's never experienced it couldn’t.

Ry: Exactly.

Paul: But if we isolate, we never get to, we never get to connect on that level. It's, it's, you know, th-, it's weird how even the most awful things have some nugget of potential positivity inside them.

Ry: That's what it's inspiring me about going and getting my masters. Cuz I’ll like, cuz I think like I've been through some shit. I know what it's like to be depressed and suicidal. I've succeeded; I've failed. I might have, uh, good fucking, effective voice here. And if I could be, I, I would like to be some little boy's role model. I wanna be somebody's Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey's my god.

Paul: He's a fun man—

Ry: My hero.

Paul: Would LOVE to get him on the podcast.

Ry: Jim! I know you're listening. (Both laugh)

Paul: I, I keep "Dumb and Dumber" saved on my DVR just for that scene where they eat the hot chili peppers.

Ry: (Laughs) Oh, yeah!

Paul: It, I just watch it over and over again. It makes me laugh from like the deepest part of my stomach.

Ry: "Ace Ventura" is my favorite. And Ji-, I have a deep love for Jim Carrey because I would do, that something I would do to cheer my mom up. Do Ace Ventura impressions. That's why I got into come-, that's why, that's why I value comedy so much, I think. In my household, Irish Catholic, not a lot of showing of emotions, ex-, except for laughing—

Paul: Rage.

Ry: Rage. (Laughs) Yeah. It just, it's, it was such a valuable tool in my house. Like, uh, my sister had a boyfriend who was really funny. And my mom would be having a bad day. John would come over; he's hilarious. My mom would cheer up. I'm like, "Thank god! Thank god for laughing!" And I would do Ace Ventura impressions to cheer her up. And then I found out Jim started doing his wacky voices and stuff, cuz his mom was depressed. So I was like, "Oh my god! I'm, I'm just like Jim Carrey!" (Laughs) Just not as funny, or successful. Paul, I quit. Goodbye. No, but yeah, that's why I got into comedy. Dude, ADD or what? I, I can talk about comedy for hours. But … that's why I love Jim Carrey, goddamn it! You can edit that part out. (Laughs)

Paul: I'm leave it in. I'm leaving it all in. Is there, uh, is there anything else you'd like to, uh, to share, talk about?

Ry: Do—I have a question for you?

Paul: Uh-hmm.

Ry: Since this is, the show has so many heavy topics, do you ever get people pissed off? Listeners pissed off, like don't, don't talk about this. You triggered me, or something like that.

Paul: Yes. Yes. And my, the way handle that is, I've—First of all, I think the, society has gotten a little too indulgent in the trigger warning, uh, culture. I understand that there are, there—When it's something that is unexpected, I understand a trigger warning, you know. If you're gonna show violent, graphic, sexual something on broadcast TV, that makes sense to me—

Ry: Yeah. Put a little thing for it—

Paul: —if things are graphic. But, if all you're gonna do is mention, you know, that, that somebody, you know, I dunno, had a father that drank a lot, and the person is like ,"I would have really appreciated an alcoholism trigger warning," that's like, you know, I think you're gonna have to roll your sleeves up and, uh, deal with this one on your own. So, what, what I've done with the podcast … uh, the surveys tend to be the most triggering, cuz they tend to be the most graphic, dark, is I try to have them, uh, the heavier ones towards the end of the show, so that if people are like it's gotten too dark, then they can, they can bale. And every once in a while, if something's really graphic and, um, and I read it on air, every once in a while, I will do a trigger warning, but that's usually only if it's, if it's very graphic. And I, and sometimes if I don’t, I get shit from people. But I'm okay with that because it's the nature of this show. None of it should be a surprise.

Ry: Totally. I agree. I tweeted a clip from when you were on my podcast. Somebody accused me on Twitter, was like, "You should have had trigger warning for this. (Unintelligible) it was pretty fucking irresponsible—"

Paul: I saw that. I—no. I saw that, and that pissed me off. That—

Ry: Me, too.

Paul: —to me, is, um, an example of somebody wanting the world to cater to them. And that was an unreasonable, uh, request.

Ry: I, unfortunately, engaged with her. (Laughs) But the first, in the tweet, my first, the first words are, "Suicidal thoughts are more common than you think." It was like, I considered trigger warning. It was like, well, they're already seeing it; it's about suicide.

Paul: Right.

Ry: So. So I told her to like, that was my reasoning. Then she, was just like, "I know this is hard for a cis white male to grasp." (Laughs)

Paul: Oh, SJWs!

Ry: Yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: SJWs.

Ry: Why am I even tweeting here? Cuz I like thought about it for the remainder of the day.

Paul: Yes. And … you seem like a conscientious, uh, fairly progressive guy whose trying to do the right thing. And I think … you know, the …

Ry: The intent—

Paul: Anger.

Ry: Say it, say it again. Sorry.

Paul: Yeah. You know, the venom should be saved for people whose intentions are not good. I think there needs to be a distinction between people who maybe had a, uh … I dunno … a moment of lack of awareness versus somebody trying to be hurtful.

Ry: Yep. And—

Paul: I'm having, you can tell I'm depressed, cuz I'm having trouble putting sentences together. It feels like, like every third word, a—That crane, you know, that crane game.

Ry: Yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: It comes and it plucks every third word going through my brain. And trying to talk when it's, when it's doing that is not fun. Yes.

Ry: (Laughs) So you're having a miserable time with me? Is it me? It's because, what, my hat? Want me turn my hats forwards? Just kidding. I, she pissed me off because, it almost kind of devalued the strength that depressed people have. Like I know what it's like to wanna kill myself. I wouldn’t be triggered by somebody talking about suicide. So, I kinda wanna be like fuck you. Like don’t devalue how tough us sads are. (Laughs)

Paul: I, what I usually just do is, you know, if it's an email, uh, I just delete it. Because there's a part of me that wants to write back and shame them. And that's not, that's not right, to shame them for shaming me, you know. But, in my mind, I envision that as being delicious and awesome. And reality, it's, it never is. It’s never enough; hence, Facebook.

Ry: Pretty much, just makes—When I engage with a hater, it makes me feel worse (laughs) when I, when I, when I engage.

Paul: And it's, I, I think it's a form of insanity thinking that if we can just belittle somebody enough, uh, they will change and we will feel satisfied and victorious. I've never seen it happen.

Ry: Neither have I. Don’t be hating, everybody.

Paul: Ry Doon, thanks so much for coming by. And, uh, give 'em the name of your podcast again.

Ry: It's called I'm Sorry, Dad.

Paul: I fucking love the name of that, too. I'm sorry I forgot it.

Ry: For no real reason. It's just a comedy podcast—

Paul: It's just a great, it’s a great name. It's a great name. I had fun being, being a guest on your podcast—

Ry: Yeah, thanks for doing it—

Paul: People can find you on social media, @rydoon, r-y-d-o-o-n?

Ry: You got it!

Paul: (Laughs) I don’t know what that voice was, but, uh—

Ry: That was my bad impression of, uh, the late, great Brody Stevens.

Paul: Awww!!!

Ry: That freaked me out a little bit.

Paul: That freaked me out, too.

Ry: Cuz I was like oh shit. And I gonna do that?

Paul: YES! RY DOON!

Ry: YEEEES! YOU GOT IT! YOU SHA-, oh, I fucked it up. I SCRATCH YOUR BACK, YOU SHAVE MINE! Yes!

Paul: What a great joke. What a sweet man, what a sweet man. He will be missed.

Ry: Well, thank you for having me on this podcast. I fell very cool for being here, cuz I'm a big fan. Shout-outs to all my fellow sad people out there. What's GOOOOOD? (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) Thanks, buddy.

End of Interview

[01:17:02] Many, many thanks to, uh, to Ry. As I mentioned, uh, earlier in the podcast, today's episode is sponsored by Gary John Bishop's highly-anticipated book, "Stop Doing That Shit: End Self-Sabotage and Demand Your Life Back." It's his highly-anticipated follow-up to the New York Times and international best seller, "Unfuck Yourself." It is now available. You might have fucked up in the past; so what? "Stop Doing Thar Shit" reveals how you can break free of those deep-seated patterns to live the life you always knew you wanted, but could never quite seem to have. "Stop Doing Thar Shit" is a no-holds-barred guide to breaking through your self-defeating cycles and finally getting what you want out of life. No more excuses; it's time to ma-, to demand your life back, and Gary John Bishop is here to show you how. "Stop Doing Thar Shit" is on sale now in hardcover, eBook, and audio read by Gary John Bishop himself. Grab a copy today and visit garyjohnbishop.com to learn more.

[01:18:03] Today's episode is also sponsored by the Calm app. We all know that stress is a mofo. And, uh, it’s a part of life. And so, let's face it and let's find a way to deal with it. Calm is the number one app to help you reduce your anxiety and stress and help you sleep better. More than 40 million people around the worlds have downloaded it. If you guys go to calm.com/mental—make sure to include "/mental," you'll get 25 percent off a Calm premium subscription, which include guided meditations on issues like anxiety, stress, and focus, including a brand new meditation each day. Sleep stories, which are bedtime stories for adults, and they help you relax. Head to the fields of, uh, southern France, the lavender fields, uh, with Stephen Fry, or explore the moonlit jungles of Africa with Leona Lewis. Their, their, their adult bedtime stories are really, uh, cool. Really soothing. And, I don’t know anybody that couldn’t use a little more soothing in their life. They also have soothing music, if that's your thing. (As Mean DJ Voice) If your into that kind of thing. (Regular voice) So right now, you guys, the listeners, get 25 percent off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/mental. That's c-a-l-m.com/mental. Get unlimited access to all of Calm's content today at calm.com/mental. Get calm and stop stressing.

[01:19:32] Let's get to some surveys. This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself "Crisco the Radio." I'm not sure what that means. He is … he identifies as gay. He's in his 40s. He was raised in a totally chaotic environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts. I put an object in my older brother's bottom while he jumped the bed. I was five or six and he was 12. When I was 11, I masturbated occasionally with a 15-year-old next-door neighbor." He's never been physically abused, uh, but he had been emotionally abused. He writes, "Both of my parents were narcissists. My dad was the traditional, arrogant, loud, vicious, Trump-styled narcissist. My mother was the passive-aggressive martyr-styled narcissist. What my dad accomplished with bullying and aggression, she accomplished with tears and guilt. Both were all about appearances and both projected their own personal failings and fears of inferiority outwardly and onto their children. My dad was consistently unfaithful to my mother, and I was the youngest of four. She raised me to hate him, although I don’t think this was a conscious decision on her part. I was also the child she cried to, her confessor. Both parents are dead." Any positive experiences with these people? "Most of my positive experiences are from before the age of 10, before I reached the age of becoming an individual and challenging them. My father was all about sports and work, and there were a few good memories of him gardening, coaching, and working before I reached 10. I have many more positives of my mother. She made every holiday special and magical, especially Christmas. Easter, Halloween, and Valentine's Day were all pretty magically, too. After 10, both fairly consistently but in different ways, made it clear they did like who I wanted to be or who I was becoming." Darkest thoughts: "I wish I'd never been born or that I had died before the age of 10. I yearn for death, but fear dying. I don’t want it to be over until I'm certain there is no hope for healing or until I am too old or in too poor health to continue on. I often wished my dad would physically abuse me as a child, because it would be visible abuse that could show and prove how he really was. I also used to think I would take one of his guns and kill him, if he ever hit me." Darkest secrets: "I shoved my dad in a chair and told him off when I was 34, popping him on his head with each point." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Nothing really bizarre. I see myself as ugly and incapable of having a really good man fall in love with me. So a really good-looking man falling in love with me and it lasting the rest of my life, that is hot to me. On the kinky side, a three-way with me in the middle has always been a fantasy. I have a foot fetish, too." Is there anything you would like to say to somebody you haven’t been able to? "I have never really had a problem saying anything to anyone as an adult. I wish I had asked for help as a child from professionals." And it's sad that, that a child, that a, that a parent wouldn’t recognize that a child needed help. But, I mean, your parents couldn’t even recognize that they needed professional help. What, if anything, do you wish for? "Healing, peace, happiness, fulfillment. Good management of my ADHD. If I can make a life that works, I'd like to outlive all my siblings so my truths would outlive their lives, and so my healing might be passed onto my nieces and nephews." Have you shared these things with others? "Yes. I'm in counseling and have friends I share these things with." That's huge, man. That is huge. Just keep on that path. Just keep doing it. How do you feel after writing things, these things down? "Scared I will be identified. Relieved. Fear that I talk too much and don’t say what needs to be said, but I am just putting out noise." This is SO not that. This is a really profound survey. It's, it's why I chose to, to read it. It's really heartfelt and vulnerable and heartbreaking that the neglect and the abuse that you experienced as a kid, um … To not be seen by either parent and rejected, uh, that's, that's tough. That is tough. Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Get away from toxic people as fast and as far as you can. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Tough it out. See it though and you will make it." And I, and I would clarify, by toughing it out meaning, toughing it out by asking for help and continuing to … let people help you, even if it comes in the form that you don’t want it to come in. You know, if help always came in the form we wanted it to come in, chances are we wouldn’t need help. Because we would have done it already. It's why, so often, help is counterintuitive to what we think or feel or want. Thank you for that survey.

[01:25:01] This is an email I got, uh, from a guy names "Dimitry." And he lights, he writes, "Hello! My name is Dimitry. Radio is a great invention of mankind. Want to express his gratitude for what you do. We heard your broadcast via the internet. All your programs are worthy of the highest praise. You professionals of the business, real, experienced people. I always envied those who work with you." I, I think that that would be either be my guests or Mean DJ Voice. I'm not sure who else there is. Continuing: "I, to you, have a small request." I'm so glad, because a lot of times, a request through somebody else, it can get lost in the translation. So, thank you for doing I to you. "My daughter will soon be holiday. Her name is Alexandra." I think we all enjoy taking the day off work to celebrate Alexandra. "She attends school and is very fond of biology, history, and science. She loves animals. At home, she has is a small dog." I don’t know if that means that she transforms into a small dog once she gets home from biology, history, and science; or if she lives in a house shaped like a dog. But, either way, it sounds really cozy. "Also, she adores music. Her hobby is to collect information and souvenirs, television, and radio of companies of the world and more. Please send us your free souvenirs: magnet, postcard, pen, icon, t-shirt, or something else for a gift. My gratitude to you will not have borders." I think every person needs borderless gratitude. Especially in this time of international, political trouble. For somebody to not put sanctions on gratitude is a really, really beautiful thing. And, I don’t know what the next fiscal year holds … for the restrictions around international gratitude, but my hope is that it will be traded freely, and that you and I will get to meet, Dimitry, and perhaps have tea in your dog-shaped house. Give my best to your daughter. I will send her nothing.

[01:27:35] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "KT." She is … She identifies as "basically straight, but I think I may be bi and haven’t explored it fully." She's in her 20s, raised in a totally chaotic environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? One event, she reported. Another event, she didn’t report, and then some stuff that she doesn’t know if it counts. "There are three distinct incidents. I was raped as a teen by a friend and never reported it, which sometimes I regret and sometimes I don’t because there was no physical evidence and no struggle. I felt guilty because I didn’t fight or flight. I froze. I felt like that somehow made him less responsible, even though I clearly said no and tried to push him off at one point. I know in my heart of hearts he knew what he was doing. The second time, I don’t remember it. So hard to know what happened, but I did report it. The police dropped the case, but my college at least found him responsible. The first time, though, I don’t know if it qualifies. Mt mother's long-time boyfriend was sexually inappropriate, in my opinion. He would be very touchy with her in front of me, in a way my dad never was and no other boyfriend of hers ever has been. He also used to walk around naked and it made me really, really uncomfortable. I used to get really worked up, and he would downplay it." That is abuse. A child telling you that your nudity makes them uncomfortable, um, is, you know—I know that there are families where, uh, nudity is a part of the culture, and … But a child knows in their body what they're feeling, if they are feeling something that has aggression behind it. And there is healthy nudity and then there is aggressive nudity. And, it sounds to me like this boyfriend of your mom's was aggressively, uh, using nudity for some ulterior motive. "I used to get really worked up and he would downplay it. Almost even making fun of me for caring. He was this washed-up hippie type, and it's like he thought I was 'square' for not wanting to see him naked … as a grade-schooler. I don’t remember much about my childhood. I think the trauma of my first rape decimated my memory. But I remember HATING this boyfriend. I hated being around him, I hated visiting him, I hated when he visited us. I used to agonize about going on vacation with I'm and his kids, and I was so, so relieved when he and my mom broke up. I didn’t even think that what he was doing might have been some sort of abuse until I listened to your podcast, and you had a woman whose parents and stepmom engaged in similar conduct around her. I always thought I just felt protective of my mom and hated him because he was dating her. But I never reacted … that way to any of her other boyfriends or to my dad's girlfriends and my stepmom. And my issues with him always felt sexually tinged somehow. I remember he tried to give me beer on New Year's Eve when I was like 12, and I freaked out and he did the whole minimizing/downplaying thing. I also remember he showed us movies like 'Pulp Fiction' when we were in grade school, and did the same minimizing thing when I complained. I know, I was a square to some extent, but it just felt so inappropriate. To be fair, he did this to his younger sons, too, the showing of inappropriate movies and offering beer. I also found topless pictures of my mom he'd taken, and she was super-normal and caring about it, and he found out and tried to joke around with me about it. the same, like "Why do you care? Sex is normal," etcetera, etcetera. I only have a few memories of him and his house and vacations we took. But the ones I do have really have started to trouble me, as I've begun to turn them over." She's been emotionally—not sure if she's been emotionally abused. Oh, I guess some of them, she qualifies as emotional abuse; other ones she is not sure. "Emotionally abused by several different boyfriends. One engaged in sexual abuse—coerced sex—which I consider physical abuse, but I'm not sure if it is. He also would punch walls in front of me and once went to punch me and veered at the last second. I tried to just let it go, but my dad used to hit my brother sometimes during arguments and that really traumatized me as a child, and this was super triggering and upsetting. The other abusers were more typical gaslighting, insecure types. He was violent and jealous in a way no others were." Any positive experiences? "Yes, of course. I think it's always like that, but I think I've been shockingly able to forgive and move on. I don’t want any of them in my life anymore and I'm glad they're gone, but I try not to harbor resentment or dwell in it." You know, my feeling about resentment—there are people that say, oh, you need to forgive that person. I'm not a believer in intellectually just forgiving somebody. I'm in, a believer in processing the emotions, finding healthy ways to let out the anger and the pain and the sadness, and then if it comes, forgiveness is a feeling of that person not holding power over you anymore. That's been my experience. Darkest thoughts: "Mostly it's my negative self-talk, like, 'Your rape wasn’t that bad. Maybe you invited it. Maybe you're just too sensitive. Other people probably experience what you do, and they're fine.' I had this a lot with an eating disorder I developed while processing the rape, almost like a coping mechanism. Sometimes, that negative voice extended to other people. Like if someone would try to talk to me or intervene and get me help. I'd think, 'Oh, of course they'd say that. They're fat.' But it would be my skinny size 2 friends. They weren’t fat, and I knew it, and I just felt so much guilt for being so cruel. Also, sometimes I have sex dreams about male relatives. I have no interest in it, and it honestly haunts me." Darkest secrets: "I think the deepest secret is the conduct with my mom's boyfriend described above. Some other secrets are that, since I was raped, I like super-violent porn, and it's basically all I watch. I KNOW how bad it is, and I would be horrified if a straight man were watching this trach. But I can't get off without it. I think it's because all of my experiences with sexual abuse have been coerced, alcohol-facilitated as a child, etcetera, so I harbor a lot of guilt and shame about how I didn't have 'real' violence inflicted on me, i.e., I wasn't literally held down, shoved, beaten, held at gunpoint, tied up, etcetera. I think I like seeing it acted out and imagining myself in that situation. I prefer videos with women with my race, hair color, body type, as if I almost deserved to have experienced that for how much my abuse has fucked me up and how much I agonize over and talk about it. It's really sad and fucked up to write out, but it's just how it is." It is not fucked up. It is—You, the way you're reacting to it is not fucked up; what happened to you is fucked up. But the way that you are reacting to this is very human and very normal for experiencing what you did. I've read THOUSANDS of these surveys, and you are not alone in what you are thinking and feeling and how this has affected you. You are not bad, you are not dirty. "The final thing I hold on to a ton of shame about is that a boyfriend that I consider an abuser was going through some deep depression and he once confessed gender dysphoria during an alcohol blackout. And I tried to talk to him about it, but he would go there again. But I think this was not at the root of so many of his issues. I loved him and really feel ashamed for abandoning him, when he might be going through this. But he was so cruel to me and I couldn’t do it anymore. I wish I could tell him this sometimes, but I think he hates me now. I went full scorched earth with him, because I was so fed up with the emotional torment of being with him and being mistreated by him." You know, it's a two-way street. If, so-, if, if, if we are to help or comfort somebody, they … you know, they need to have respect for us, you know. If somebody's pushing us away, being abusive towards us, that, in my opinion, our sense of … duty to that person becomes a moot point. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I hate that it's non-consensual stuff, but it is (described in a previous questions.)" What, if anything, would you like to be able to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I want my rapist to apologize. I want to ask other sexual assailant what happened while I was blacked out. I would ask my mother's boyfriend what the fuck is wrong with you. But he died from ALS, so there's a whole other source of shame that I hate and harbor such animosity for a fucking dead man who suffered deeply at the end of his life." His suffering has nothing to do with your suffering. It doesn’t cancel it out. This is about the feelings inside of YOU. This is not about, you know, putting him on a scale of how much he suffered and how much suffering he dished out. What, if anything, do you wish for? "Stability and peace." I just thought of the fucking sickest thing you could have said to him while he was at the end of his life, is (laughs), "You make-, why are you making such a big deal about your ALS?" (Laughs) Oh, that's so fucked up. Welcome to my brain. Have you shared these things with others? "I share some. Some I keep deeply secret. Most people are very supporting and deeply caring, and mostly it invites emotional labor I'm not prepared for. People often come to me to confess things." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Confused, but relieved, and also validated, even though nobody has confirmed anything. It's like validating myself." That's awesome. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "You aren’t alone. Cliché, but true and always, always bears repeating. Also, fuck the people who make you feel alone. They are the problem, not you." Thank you for that. Sending you some love.

[01:38:34] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a man who, um, identifies as straight with very rare exceptions. Is in his 40s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, was the victim of sexual abuse and never report it … reported it. "First of all, I wanna say thank you for doing this survey and sharing the responses on your podcast. The many answers where people chose 'stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts,' then hearing what actually happened to them enabled me to accept that what happened to me was, in fact, sexual abuse, in spite of the fact that it pales in comparison what many others have suffered. When I was very young, a man broke into our home. I woke up in the middle of the night, with him asleep next to me and his hand inside my underwear on my genitals." That is HORRIFYING. HORRIFYING! That is, that is like … trauma compounded on time-, on top of trauma. "I was able to get untangled and hide until the situation was resolved. I don’t believe anything else happened, but the shame associated with this event and my doubt as to whether anything else happened that I might have blocked out, became an undercurrent that undermined my self-esteem and made me feel damaged and HIGLY conflicted and confused about sexuality." Abuse is not, you know … I had to be, be graphic, but so often we think it's about how much did something physically hurt. You know, was there, uh, you know, was an orifice, uh, being torn or, you know, whatever. It, it has, that … It's, it's about … us feeling dehumanized. And you don’t have to have something put in an orifice to feel dehumanized. You don’t even have to be touched to be dehumanized by somebody. "For a long time, I denied that this was important because it seemed so minor compared to real sexual abuse. I'm over 40 now and just beginning to realize how much this event has affected me. One of the most damaging aspects of the event was that, although I told the adults in my life what happened, no one brought charges against the man for that part of what happened. I don't believe—" That, to me, is the worst part of it. "I don’t believe the police were even informed of it. I believe my parents made this decision out of their own shame about the event, the stigma associated with it, and their concerns about how telling the police about it might affect me as a young child. I was unfairly and inappropriately given the responsibility of choosing whether or not I wanted to tell the police about it as a very young kid. Of course, I chose not to. I was scared, ashamed, and confused, and at five, far too young to be asked to make such a consequential decision. This was an unconscionable abdication of parental responsibility—" Hi, I'm Paul. I, I'm, I'm trying out a new mouth. It's a new model; it's a 2019 and I'm still breaking it in. "… and further burdened being with the guilt and shame of being too cowardly to tell the police. The message I received was that I was not worthy of being protected in this way by my parents. As a parent now, I cannot imagine letting a very young child suffer such any event without doing everything in my power to ensure justice was done not only for my own child, but for potential future victims. I wished I'd been told what I would tell any young child now if anything like this ever happened to them: What happened to you was wrong. It is not your fault, and it had nothing to do with you. I know you feel scared and confused, but we need to be strong and brave together and tell the police what happened so that we can help make sure it doesn’t happen to someone else. I will be right there with you and I will make sure you are safe. I believe if I had heard these words and we had taken action, I would have grown up with a much healthier relationship to sexuality, better self-esteem, and a greater ability to trust." He's also been physically and emotionally abused. "The only real physical abuse I really suffered in my home was that described above, although I was bullied at school pretty badly, and some of that was physical. There was usual stuff between brothers, but nothing that rose to what I would call abuse. I suffered significant emotional abuse and neglect from my mother, who was severely mentally ill, probably with some combination of bipolar type I, narcissism, and/or schizophrenia. This, combined with abandonment for a year by my father when I was very young, I believe resulted in me having borderline personality disorder, something I've only just come to accept that I have. The signs have all been obvious since my late teen. But depression, anxiety, alcohol abuse, and PTSD have all been consequences of the underlying condition that made it very hard to identify what the real issue was. My mother was simply emotionally not there. Very confusing and scary due to her mental issues. Cold, stern, and unloving, and would leave me alone in the house when I was four or five. Once, when I was 12, I visited her—she was out of our lives for the most part after I was seven or so— and was sitting next to her on the couch. I put my hand behind her, not touching her, to lean over to look at a photo album. She accused me of getting fresh with her. Icky. My BPD lead me to be attracted to narcissistic and otherwise damaged females as an adult, and I've always had and urge to rescue women to make up for the fact that I couldn’t fix my mom. I've been married twice. First to an overt narcissist and the second time to a covert narcissist. In both cases, I was unable to see the manipulative behavior and emotional abuse. Narcissistic emotional abuse is often so subtle and insidious, they really know how to 'boil the frog.' I wasn’t able to see it until it was far too late. I was blinded to it by the power of my attraction to these women and the intensity of my emotions of 'love' and I paid for it dearly in emotional and financial terms. The relationship between borderlines and narcissists is one I'm just starting to become aware of, and as I've been reading about it, it explains so much about the dynamic of my relationships and the type of women I've been attracted to. As of today, this has left me in a situation where I don’t know if I will ever be able to trust another woman with my heart. And now, I know, I have my own issues due to BPD, which makes me hard to be around and can feel emotionally abusive and manipulative to others. I'm afraid I will never be able to love someone the way that I want to and afraid I will never be loved the way that I want to be. I so badly wanted to have an enduring and mostly happy marriage, where bother people learn and grow and support each other and love each other unconditionally. I'm afraid I will never be able to have that experience now, especially now that I understand how I'm broken and can see how difficult it will be to manage. Thank you for having borderline guests on as well. There is so much stigma about this disorder. It is not our faults that we are the way we are, and so much of the work that is needed to help manage this disorder has to do with self-imagine that the stigma around it is very harmful to us." And I, and I'm sure you have heard of, uh, dialectical behavior therapy, but that's supposed to be a really great tool for people—anybody, really, but especially for people with, uh, borderline personality disorder and, uh, their loved ones? Any positive experiences with the abusers? "The love-bombing. Intense sexual attraction. Intense, positive emotions and that storybook romance feeling at the beginning of a borderline-narcissistic relationship makes it very hard to square those amazing highs with the emotional abuse and suffering that followed them." My friend, uh, Mickey, says the first six months of a relationship, you are talking to that person's representative. Darkest thoughts: "I occasionally think about killing my exes because of the pain they've cause me and my kid. I would never do that, but I do very often wish they were dead and don’t understand why they aren’t the ones who die in a plane crash or get killed in a terrorist attack. Why can't I be that lucky? I often think of getting revenge via suicide, and the only thing that has stopped me from doing so is the impact I know it would have on my kid. And, yes, I'm in therapy and getting treated for this." Darkest secrets: "Probably the worst thing I've done is borrowed two other people's sex toys without their knowledge or consent. I did clean them well, but I'm pretty a