Kudoku Profile Joined December 2010 United States 68 Posts #1



1: The ladder is not a system of skill, but a system of numbers. Skill can't be 100% determined by an automated number, which would prove that the ladder is a system of numbers that ONLY change based on how much you win and lose IN the ladder, and considering most people (like myself) play more games outside of ladder than in the ladder, most players skill levels aren't shown by my points / rank / ratio / league.



2: Many MANY people made it into Grandmaster league that don't "Deserve it."



3: As a candidate, you only have to win one game to make it in on GM day... which for season 4 was 11/1/2011.



The reason I am writing this is because there seems to be this big misconception that Grandmaster means something important.



For one thing, Grandmaster is designed poorly and doesn't deserve to be named as a "League" considering it practically doesn't work like one. You can get into Grandmaster even as a shit player, (there's players in GM I've never dropped a game to) and you can STAY in Grandmaster, by winning 1 game every day.



This is a fundamental problem.



IF basketball leagues worked like this, I'm sure that the NBA would be 100x less popular, because people would consider it a flawed system, and an unfair system.



If Blizzard wants SC2 to be one of those sports that people will see on ESPN like other sports (ie, basketball, football, soccer etc) then a league that Blizzard creates LIKE the grandmaster league, can NOT be so flawed as it is.



There are two extremely large problems with the GM league.



1: It isn't a league that is "Hand picked". If Blizzard wants the REAL top players in there, then Blizzard can't just let an automated system pick players into the league. This league, is SUPPOSED to be a big deal. That's how Blizzard intended it to be. Yet, it's not a "big deal" because the automated system is flawed and we KNOW that because players that AREN'T top players are in a league that is supposed to consist OF top players.



Am I the only one that sees this problem?



2: It's too easy to stay in. It's just too damn easy. Let's suppose this system is never changed. This would mean that someone could make it into grandmaster league, and then that person could play 1 game every day.



As long as this 1 person wins that 1 game, that person can stay in the league, as what I would consider an inactive player.



Players should not get to stay in a league purely based on bonus pool, because bonus pool can be manipulated!!! THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM AS WELL.



If players can see there bonus pool, they can tell when they have to play a game to make sure they don't fall out of GM. This means someone can play a couple games a day as long as they win 1 of them and still be considered "a top player" just because they KNEW their bonus pool was getting high, and they didn't want to lose their achievement so they lower their bonus pool with 1 game. One win.



Personally, I believe players should be able to see their bonus pool, because in EVERY other league, it isn't such linchpin and manipulating your bonus pool isn't a big deal because you don't fall out of master league or any other league because of your bonus pool, you fall out because of your MMR. WHY doesn't Grandmaster work like this. WHY isn't a league of "Top players" consisting of the top players. WHY did Blizzard create something as special as this league, and then completely screw it up because they won't take the time to hand pick the players into the league.



Either the definition of "Top players" needs to change, or Grandmaster league needs to change.



That is all my friends, I shall take a poll!



Poll: Ladder changes:



The Grandmaster system needs to change. (565)

65%



Blizzard won't do anything, it's not worth talking about. (142)

16%



The ladder is fine, leave it as it is. (107)

12%



All systems for the ladder in general need a change. (57)

7%



871 total votes (565)65%(142)16%(107)12%(57)7%871 total votes Your vote: Ladder changes: (Vote): The Grandmaster system needs to change.

(Vote): All systems for the ladder in general need a change.

(Vote): The ladder is fine, leave it as it is.

(Vote): Blizzard won't do anything, it's not worth talking about.

Alright, let's start off this post with some facts.1: The ladder is not a system of skill, but a system of numbers. Skill can't be 100% determined by an automated number, which would prove that the ladder is a system of numbers that ONLY change based on how much you win and lose IN the ladder, and considering most people (like myself) play more games outside of ladder than in the ladder, most players skill levels aren't shown by my points / rank / ratio / league.2: Many MANY people made it into Grandmaster league that don't "Deserve it."3: As a candidate, you only have to win one game to make it in on GM day... which for season 4 was 11/1/2011.The reason I am writing this is because there seems to be this big misconception that Grandmaster means something important.For one thing, Grandmaster is designed poorly and doesn't deserve to be named as a "League" considering it practically doesn't work like one. You can get into Grandmaster even as a shit player, (there's players in GM I've never dropped a game to) and you can STAY in Grandmaster, by winning 1 game every day.This is a fundamental problem.IF basketball leagues worked like this, I'm sure that the NBA would be 100x less popular, because people would consider it a flawed system, and an unfair system.If Blizzard wants SC2 to be one of those sports that people will see on ESPN like other sports (ie, basketball, football, soccer etc) then a league that Blizzard creates LIKE the grandmaster league, can NOT be so flawed as it is.There are two extremely large problems with the GM league.1: It isn't a league that is "Hand picked". If Blizzard wants the REAL top players in there, then Blizzard can't just let an automated system pick players into the league. This league, is SUPPOSED to be a big deal. That's how Blizzard intended it to be. Yet, it's not a "big deal" because the automated system is flawed and we KNOW that because players that AREN'T top players are in a league that is supposed to consist OF top players.Am I the only one that sees this problem?2: It's too easy to stay in. It's just too damn easy. Let's suppose this system is never changed. This would mean that someone could make it into grandmaster league, and then that person could play 1 game every day.As long as this 1 person wins that 1 game, that person can stay in the league, as what I would consider an inactive player.Players should not get to stay in a league purely based on bonus pool, because bonus pool can be manipulated!!! THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM AS WELL.If players can see there bonus pool, they can tell when they have to play a game to make sure they don't fall out of GM. This means someone can play a couple games a day as long as they win 1 of them and still be considered "a top player" just because they KNEW their bonus pool was getting high, and they didn't want to lose their achievement so they lower their bonus pool with 1 game. One win.Personally, I believe players should be able to see their bonus pool, because in EVERY other league, it isn't such linchpin and manipulating your bonus pool isn't a big deal because you don't fall out of master league or any other league because of your bonus pool, you fall out because of your MMR. WHY doesn't Grandmaster work like this. WHY isn't a league of "Top players" consisting of the top players. WHY did Blizzard create something as special as this league, and then completely screw it up because they won't take the time to hand pick the players into the league.Either the definition of "Top players" needs to change, or Grandmaster league needs to change.That is all my friends, I shall take a poll! The only true failure... is accepting failure.

Stipulation Profile Blog Joined April 2009 United States 587 Posts #2 I agree that it is meaningless as is. It doesn't promote competition as its virtually impossible to get into if you missed the boat on the day it opened.

Kevincible Profile Joined February 2011 Canada 69 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-01 21:49:34 #3 If it was hand picked you and I would all be whining how player ABC doesn't deserve to be in GM.. just saying.



Also, it's not that "easy" to win one game a day if you only play one game a day. o.O









Noktix Profile Joined May 2011 United States 491 Posts #4 I assume this is prompted by the bug on NA ladder?



It is a bug, GM has not worked this way in the past. If we're talking about how GM is supposed to work, then i think it is fine.

ThisGS Profile Joined October 2011 Germany 255 Posts #5 does anyone know when EU gm goes online exactly (in how many hours)?

Klondikebar Profile Joined October 2011 United States 2226 Posts #6 The only thing that needs to change is that MMR needs to be visible. Then we could ACTUALLY find the 200 people with the highest MMR's and say "they belong in GM."



If this is the case of too many people hitting the MMR cap then MMR either needs to be reset or the cap needs to be raised. #2throwed

Vehemus Profile Joined November 2010 United States 586 Posts #7 China's GM isn't even full yet, and SEA opens almost a full day before NA and isn't full yet either. This space for rent.

denzelz Profile Blog Joined November 2009 United States 604 Posts #8 Blizzard obviously did not work very hard to make GM what it was intended to be. The entire league was just created to make sure that the Masters players have something to work up to.

The.Doctor Profile Joined February 2010 Canada 333 Posts #9 Needs to add a low MMR cutoff, say top 500 (to allow for bad days, run ins with deezer/cheaters etc.) where if your MMR drops below top 500 you get kicked out. Also I feel Blizzard should implement a top 10 reserved for players with the highest winrate for each region that have a certain number of games played and are reviewed by to see if they're cheaters or just notable players. NA for example would have IdrA, select, ostojiy, DDE, kiwi and some others as those top 10. The Boss.

PopcornColonel Profile Joined March 2011 United States 679 Posts #10 In my opinion, battle.net should propose a player be in grandmaster to a certain selection committee at blizzard, at which point Blizzard would decide whether or not this player needed to be in grandmaster... This would also remove the problem of hackers going like 100 and 0, and being #1 on the ladder. Zerg delenda est.

Excalibur_Z Profile Joined October 2002 United States 11881 Posts #11 This is a pretty dumb thread. The entry conditions to GM are very logical and they're self-contained within the ladder, which they should be. If top-level players want to take ladder seriously, they will get into GM, no exceptions. Not every top-level player does, though.



The ejection conditions are also logical. GM should not be a constantly fluctuating league like all the other leagues. It should be like a showcase of the top players and allow people to recognize names, and it serves this purpose well. "Oh I know this guy, he's a GM player." The bonus pool ejection requirement simply ensures that you can't get into GM then sit there forever without playing a game. It's supposed to give you a general idea of who the best of the best are, and what names to look out for, which it does.



It's also worth noting that the current NA Grandmaster league is bugged in one or more ways, the exact details have yet to be determined. If you're basing anything off of this season's current GM league, you're going to have understandable complaints. Moderator

NineteenSC2 Profile Joined April 2011 Canada 116 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-01 23:19:00 #12

The GM system (as far as I know) works like this:



For example, the server has a cutoff MMR of 300 (the #200 person on the server has a MMR of 300) on the night before the release of GM. Players who log in the NEXT day with MMR 300 or above will get into GM in one game.



Obviously, not every single one of those 200 people will sign on the minute GM is released.



This gives a chance to lesser skilled people who are hovering CLOSE to 300. If, by any reason, someone who had a MMR of 250 wins 6 games and reaches 300, then the person who had reserved slot #200 is automatically kicked off the list and now the cutoff mmr is (for example) 305 (for the #199 person).



In this way, it makes sense that the more filled up the league is, the harder it is to enter since the cut off mmr becomes extremely high.



Now on the case of whether or not NA GM is bugged:



It most certainly is



GM leagues always take a VERY long while to fill up. The last 3-5 slots always take a week or so to fill up since the mmr cut off is so large.



Blizzard will probably address this issue very soon.



Other than that, I think the GM system has been (and is) fine. Without the bug, the system effectively brings in the top 200 mmr people ON the day of the release. If people are incompetent and don't play on that day, well then thats their own fault.

this does not mean average-level-players are getting in. The majority of sc2 players simply don't have the recognition they deserve, and the so called "pros" would lose to a lot of anonymous people on the ladder.



If a person like HuK had top MMR on NA and didn't play the day it was released, he can still get in a week later granted theres a spot left. This is because his mmr was above everyone else, and logically speaking there should still be a slot reserved for him. S2 & S3 Grandmaster Protoss. Justin.tv/nineteensc2 for my new stream

TCVeritas Profile Joined September 2010 United States 15 Posts Last Edited: 2011-11-01 23:18:26 #13 I usually lurk but I read this thread and was confused about some parts. I am plat so I am ignorant a bit about this stuff, but how can you say that there are players who "don't deserve it". It seems like your proof of this is that there are players you've never dropped a game to, but to show that they don't deserve it you would need to prove that these players are worse then other candidates who didn't make it. Are there players you can show this for (this isn't a rhetorical question, I am curious if you know of players you can show this for)? Also what is the bug on NA that people have referenced?



Also, why is there an MMR cap at all this seems stupid?



Otherwise, from what you have said about GM and from what I know of how it works it does seem flawed in how easy it is to stay in. I think the ladder before Master's is fine, but at Master's I don't understand why they don't show a players MMR and just judge GM by taking the top 200 MMR's, lets say every week. You can punish inactivity by reducing a players MMR for each day (or whatever unit of time you want) by a certain amount. This way it is clear to players what they have to do to get into GM and if they are sucessful they will stay in it. Only the players on the edge of the needed MMR will fluctuate between GM and Master's. Obviously blizzard will have to look at players to see if they are cheating, and this should be done at every level but a focus on GM and M players.



I don't think hand picking is viable because it is too much work for blizzard and as a player it is unclear what you would have to do to get into GM. Anyway, these are just my thoughts and hopefully one day I will be able to complain with some authority about the system (aka being a master-gm player myself).



Edit: MMR cap question. Wait and Hope

ishyishy Profile Joined February 2011 United States 826 Posts #14 Here's something to think about: if you have a complaint about the ladder system, post it on blizzard forums. You never hear them say "if you have feedback go post on TL" so it's reasonably safe to assume that not many, if not none at all, employee's of blizzard R&D read these forums. What do you want from us? To tell you that you are right? Ok so what if we did, then what? You go on your merry way, still being angry at everything and still complaining about everything and nothing changes. You are one of those angry nerds killing esports.

Sadist Profile Blog Joined October 2002 United States 6642 Posts #15 shouldve just stayed as top 200 server wide like it did before GM came around. It should fluxuate and just be a top 200 points on ladder. Its pretty stupid that it is locked basically. People should be moving up and down daily. How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano

Arcanne Profile Joined August 2010 United States 1514 Posts #16 if you care about whether or not you're in GM then you're simply not a top player Professional tech investor, part time DotA scrub | Follow @AllMeasures on Twitter

NineteenSC2 Profile Joined April 2011 Canada 116 Posts #17 On November 02 2011 08:17 ishyishy wrote:

Here's something to think about: if you have a complaint about the ladder system, post it on blizzard forums. You never hear them say "if you have feedback go post on TL" so it's reasonably safe to assume that not many, if not none at all, employee's of blizzard R&D read these forums. What do you want from us? To tell you that you are right? Ok so what if we did, then what? You go on your merry way, still being angry at everything and still complaining about everything and nothing changes. You are one of those angry nerds killing esports.



Actually, I'm almost positive Blizzard considers more feedback from TL than bnet forums. Actually, I'm almost positive Blizzard considers more feedback from TL than bnet forums. S2 & S3 Grandmaster Protoss. Justin.tv/nineteensc2 for my new stream

mcleod Profile Joined June 2010 Canada 350 Posts #18 hand pick players? what are u even talking about ? how the hell could u hand pick 200 players, it has to be automated.

i agree this season seems wacky

i dont know why people care so much in the first place. everyone knows by now that GM doesnt mean much, a GM player is the same as a high lvl masters player.

why do people care so much

shadowboxer Profile Joined November 2010 United States 221 Posts #19 Whether it needs to be changed or not, who the fuck are you to say they "don't deserve it"? Their MMR was high enough last season to carry over to this season and still get them GM. They worked hard last season and got rewarded for it this season too, which yes, is dumb, but don't say they "didn't deserve it" because you have insecurities about your own ladder placement. Jesus. "Hear that? That's God laughing at your plans."

moshyesim Profile Joined November 2010 Germany 31 Posts #20 sry 4 offtopic, but does someone know, when this grandmaster stuff starts on europe?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All