michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: A military-led massacre in Sudan has left more than 100 protesters dead just weeks after the military had offered its support to those protesters in overthrowing the country’s dictator. Declan Walsh is in Sudan’s capital, Khartoum. It’s Monday, June 24. So Declan, where did we leave things when we last spoke with you?

declan walsh

So the last time we spoke, the protesters here in Sudan had scored a huge victory.

[crowd chanting]

declan walsh

After months of street protests against military rule, they had just managed to topple Omar Hassan al-Bashir.

archived recording After 30 years in power, Omar al-Bashir is now being kept in solitary confinement in a prison in Khartoum.

declan walsh

He is the dictator who has been ruling Sudan for 30 years, and they’ve gotten rid of him. But after they got rid of Bashir, army generals took control of the country.

archived recording I, the defense minister and the head of the High Security Committee, announce the uprooting of the previous regime.

declan walsh

He said —

archived recording I also announce the formation of a Transitional Military Council that will manage the state for a two-year period.

declan walsh

We are going to shepherd this country through this transitional period maybe for two years or three years. And at the end of that, we’ll hold an election. And the protesters said, no.

[crowd chanting]

declan walsh

They said, we don’t trust you. We’ve had enough of military rule. We want a transition to a civilian-led government now.

michael barbaro

So what they want is a non-military government. They want civilian-run Sudan.

declan walsh

That’s right.

[crowd chanting and cheering]

declan walsh

And so there was some struggle going on. You had thousands and thousands of Sudanese — young Sudanese were camped at the gates of the military’s headquarters, effectively blocking people from entering and leaving via the main entrance. And inside those gates, you had the country’s most powerful military generals telling the protesters, it’s O.K., we’re going to keep calm, we’re all going to talk our way out of this. And that went on for weeks and weeks. It dragged on into the holy month of Ramadan. You know, people went back to work, but they would go down to the protest area after work, they would sit down and have their evening meal, break their fast, and then many of those people would spend the night at the protest site just to make the point that they didn’t want to leave until they got what they had come for. All through the month of May, the momentum of these protests continued. The protesters are not willing to back down from their demand. And yet there are signs that the generals are losing patience. And the tension starts to build. And then all that comes to a head early in the morning of June 3.

michael barbaro

And what happens on the morning of June 3?

declan walsh

The night before, there had been a rainstorm, so the ground was sodden. The electricity in the area had been turned off. And now you have these thousands of protesters tucked in for the night, fast asleep. And then at 5:00 a.m. that morning, thousands of soldiers descend on the area suddenly. They come from all directions. They’re led by soldiers from this paramilitary force called the Rapid Support Forces. And they rampage through the protest area. They burn the tents the people are sleeping in.

michael barbaro

Wow.

declan walsh

They start firing their guns, first in the air, then directly at some of the protesters. We’ve seen these images of hundreds of people running for their lives down the streets captured on video by many of the protesters themselves. There are accounts from eyewitnesses that at least several dozen women were raped. Perhaps many more. They dumped the bodies of some of the people who had been killed in the Nile. And by the end of that morning, this paramilitary group has managed to push all of these protesters off the protest site and sent them scattering into the neighborhoods around. The protest leaders and the doctors’ groups that work with them have so far counted 128 people killed on that day, and also in similar clear-outs that took place in 13 towns across Sudan on that same morning.

[music]

michael barbaro

Declan, were you able to speak with any of the protesters in the aftermath of this attack?

declan walsh

Yes. In the days after the attack, I tracked down as many people as I could who had lived through these events.

declan walsh I’m going to record your voice, if that’s O.K. alaa salah [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

And there was one person in particular I thought would be interesting. She was this young woman named Alaa Salah, who, to the outside world at least, had become the face of Sudan’s protests.

declan walsh And Alaa, you are an architecture student, right? alaa salah Yeah. declan walsh Mm-hmm. Which school are you studying here? interpreter [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] alaa salah Sudan International University.

declan walsh

She featured in this very striking photograph where she was standing on the roof of a car addressing hundreds of people, wearing a flowing white robe with gold jewelry and posing a finger aloft. And people saw this as the embodiment of the youth of the defiance and of the prominent role of women in the protest movement.

declan walsh And where were you on June 3? interpreter [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] alaa salah [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

So she had been protesting the night before, but went home to sleep in her own bed. She got home at about 2:30 in the morning.

interpreter And after 2:00 a.m., she went back home. She went right home. She opened her Facebook. alaa salah [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

And she said she was not able to sleep, because on Facebook people had started to get wind that something was afoot. Soldiers massing in greater numbers than normal in the neighborhoods around the protest area. So she started seeing these warnings. She was not able to sleep. And then, of course, at 5 o’clock, people started sending these frantic messages, including her own friends, saying that this attack, effectively, was underway. So she left her house and she rushed down to the protest area to see if she could get in.

interpreter She wanted to get back to the protest area, but she couldn’t arrive because of the military. They were closing the roads.

declan walsh

The military by then, because, of course, this was a preplanned operation, they had sealed off the entire area. And so she was forced to stand back and watch as these messages started to flood in from her own friends about what was happening to them.

alaa salah [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] interpreter O.K. One of her friends died — declan walsh Oh, I’m sorry. interpreter — on that day. And some of them got injured, and they were in hospitals. One of her friends — they beat him until they break his hand. She said she couldn’t see when she saw his picture. She felt sad. She wanted to cry so hard. She felt deeply bad.

declan walsh

And then the internet went out. And suddenly they had no more news on what was going on. The military had cut the cord on their principal form of communications.

michael barbaro

Ah.

declan walsh

During the protests against Bashir, state media and the regular, you know, TV stations and newspapers couldn’t be relied on to say what was going on against this man who was so powerful. So the protesters had used social media in a very powerful way to get out the message about what they were doing and to provide images that rallied people. And the military understood acutely what had helped the protests that ousted President Bashir back in April. And they were determined not to let the same thing happen again.

interpreter — all the villages, all the history of the — alaa salah [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

Alaa Salah said something very interesting to me.

interpreter What happened in Darfur, they knew that this thing might happen in Khartoum as well. declan walsh Right.

declan walsh

She said, Darfur has come to Khartoum.

michael barbaro

And what does she mean by that?

declan walsh

That’s a reference to the man who ordered these attacks and who had carried out atrocities in the Western province of Darfur many years before. His name is General Mohamed Hamdan. Everybody here calls him Hemeti.

michael barbaro

Hemeti.

declan walsh

Hemeti is this man who comes from one of the poorest and most remote parts of the country. He was recruited by the government to be a commander in one of these militias called the Janjaweed —

archived recording The Khartoum government denies helping the Janjaweed, but officials here say the militiamen are armed by the central authorities and get tactical support from government military aircraft.

declan walsh

— to effectively carry out its dirty work in Darfur. It wanted to quell an insurgency led by people from an ethnically African background. And it armed and coordinated this militia, called the Janjaweed, that carried out attacks not just against rebels but against civilians. Hundreds of thousands of people — 300,000 people died during that conflict. And President Bashir himself faced genocide accusations at the International Criminal Court as a result of his role in that conflict.

archived recording We concluded — I concluded that genocide has been committed in Darfur and that the government of Sudan and the Janjaweed bear responsibility.

declan walsh

And then later, about five years ago, President Bashir started repurposing the Janjaweed into this new force, which he called the Rapid Support Forces. He made them a — formally a paramilitary group.

archived recording (speaker 1) Is the R.S.F. the same thing as those Janjaweed militias? archived recording (speaker 2) Well, there are slight differences in terms of the recruitment, but yes. They are exactly the same thugs.

declan walsh

And he started to use them not just to fight in Darfur, but also in other parts of Sudan where rebellion had erupted. So Hemeti had played a role as a commander in Darfur. But when the protests started and when Bashir was overthrown, General Hemeti portrayed himself as being on the side of the protesters.

mohamed hamdan [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] interpreter We want free and fair elections and for the Sudanese people to pick who they want.

declan walsh

And then on June 3, of course, Hemeti effectively pulled the rug from under all of those people, and he sent his troops onto the streets of Khartoum.

michael barbaro

So these protesters had placed their trust, in a sense, in the wrong man.

declan walsh

These protesters did not think that this man was going to turn his guns on them in the same way as he had done in Darfur so many years earlier. And it turned out that they were wrong. And across Sudan, so many people were left wondering, how could their country’s military justify this use of violence against a group of unarmed civilians —

michael barbaro

Right.

declan walsh

— who said that all they wanted was a return to democracy in the country? And so last week I went to Sudan’s military headquarters, where General Hemeti was now sitting in an office close to the top floor. And I asked him.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. So Declan, take me through the day that you went to visit this general, Hemeti.

declan walsh

So it starts with the drive through the deserted protest area. By now, this whole place has become unrecognizable from what it was just a couple of weeks ago. There’s no longer any people there. And there are these soldiers hanging out on the streets who have started to whitewash the graffiti from the walls that the protesters had put up. And we drive through the gates into the military headquarters. And after a period of waiting, we are ushered into this huge office.

interpreter First of all, he’s saying he’s sorry for being late. And we are welcome here. And we hope we give you the information that —

declan walsh

And the man himself is sitting there —

mohamed hamdan [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

— in this huge armchair surrounded by courtiers, and advisers, and people who are bringing him food, very much like someone who’s looking like he’s at home and who’s enjoying the trappings of the office that he has now come to occupy.

interpreter He want you to reflect the truth of what he say. declan walsh Sure. We’re recording.

michael barbaro

And what did he say?

declan walsh You have this American envoy. He’s due to come to Khartoum, I think, today. I’m sure he’s going to meet with you. What’s your message going to be for him? Before coming here, he said he’s coming here to tell the army to stop killing civilians. What will you respond to him? mohamed hamdan [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

Initially, he was pretty evasive. And then he tried to turn the focus away from his soldiers and onto the protesters themselves. He tried to portray the protesters as these degenerate young people who were doing drugs, drinking alcohol, bringing chaos to the streets of Khartoum, and which his soldiers needed to correct.

interpreter Something really ashamed happened. And he doesn’t want to say it, but he said it.

declan walsh

He told me this very lurid story about how one of the protesters had flashed his penis at a soldier.

interpreter — doing like this. Like right and left. Like, you guys cannot touch us, move from here, insulting them with bad words. And —

declan walsh

He was implying that they were not good Muslims and that their behavior had gotten out of control. And then they had taken five people who were being detained in the same building, and they paraded them in front of me.

michael barbaro

Wow.

declan walsh

Young guys who were barefoot. Some of them in rags. And they were just made to stand there in front of me. I was not allowed to ask them any questions.

michael barbaro

He’s making an argument that the protesters deserved this.

declan walsh

Totally. He’s trying to turn the lens away from his own men and towards the people that they’re accused of carrying out these acts of violence against.

declan walsh But on June 3, the doctors say that there was so much violence against them, they say that 118 people were killed by your soldiers. There were bodies thrown in the Nile. There’s video that shows tents being burned. There are doctors who spoke about bullets being fired into their clinics and women being raped, sexually assaulted. Now, people are saying that this is just the same Janjaweed who did the same atrocities in Darfur, that nothing has changed.

declan walsh

And then he went for a more legalistic approach. He said, well —

interpreter The minister of the judiciary, they are now looking after these things that you ask now. And he cannot say anything, because he doesn’t want to destroy the decision of the minister of the judiciary.

declan walsh

There is an official investigation underway and I do not want to prejudice the results of that, so I’m not going to comment any further.

declan walsh That sounds — with respect, that sounds like a good excuse. That sounds like a way for you not to talk about the most serious accusations that are being made against you now. People outside, they want to know the answer to this, because they’ve heard about the killings, and they would like to know what your response is. You are the head of the R.S.F. speaker — excuse me. He say — he say when he say anything during the investigation, this is against the law. You know, in the United States, even, when there is an investigation going, that’s the law. He following the law. [interposing voices] interpreter Yeah. Yeah, O.K. Time is up.

declan walsh

I didn’t really expect I was going to get a straight answer from him about the terrible accusations that had been made against his men from June 3. But I did want to get a sense of how he views himself sitting now suddenly in this seat of power.

declan walsh Do you intend to enter politics? And there’s a rumor that you’re setting up a political party. Is that right? interpreter [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

Where is he headed? What are his ambitions? What can we expect from him in the future?

interpreter He said, first of all, I hate politicians. And I don’t like politician people at all. And I’m not going to be a politician guy, because what —

declan walsh

But then in the next breath, almost, he said —

interpreter Because now the work I’m doing is kind of politics. Because if I didn’t be a politic man in that situation now, the country will get into a loss. And now —

declan walsh

And I left that interview with this, you know, very self-serving explanation from this man, but also one that made clear that he did not intend to leave that office anytime soon, as far as I could see.

[music]

declan walsh

And sure enough, just a couple of days later, I went to a village about 40 miles north of Khartoum, where he held this — what I can only describe as almost like a kind of presidential election rally.

michael barbaro

Hm.

mohamed hamdan [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] [cheering]

declan walsh

A couple of thousand people had gathered in this dusty clearing right by the banks of the Nile. And Hemeti roars up from Khartoum in this huge convoy with dozens of vehicles, heavily armored with all sorts of guns. And then Hemeti stands up onto the stage and delivers this speech.

mohamed hamdan [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC]

declan walsh

He stood there, and he held up a stick, and he waved it. And to a Sudanese person, that image brings to mind nobody more than deposed President Bashir. That was the way that Bashir spoke to them for 30 years. And you just couldn’t help but have this idea that the Sudanese revolution may have gotten rid of Omar Bashir, but someone who appears to be modeling himself in his image now is setting himself up for some sort of political career in the future.

mohamed hamdan [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] [crowd cheering] [MUSIC]

michael barbaro

So is this it for the protesters? Is this movement over?

declan walsh

When I asked Alaa Salah about this —

declan walsh How do you feel about that political situation now, now that, you know, things have changed? I mean, the image that you were famous for, the photograph, was an image of hope and inspiring for many people. At this moment now, do you still feel hopeful for the country?

declan walsh

— she started off by telling me just what a depressing moment this is. You know, she told me that she can’t bear to even visit the protest site in front of the military headquarters. And yet —

alaa salah [SPEAKING SUDANESE ARABIC] interpreter Our hope is very strong since day one when we went to the protest area and we started our revolution. We went out with a big, strong hope.

declan walsh

She said, you know what? This is not done yet.

interpreter And we’re still hoping. We are going to fight still and get our friends and people who got injured, we’re going to get their rights back, and we’re not going to lose hope.

declan walsh

And sure enough, last Wednesday evening, I went out to a suburb on the edge of the city, where a protest had started again. And you had hundreds of people sitting outside in chairs, even in sofas that they’d pulled out to the front rows of this gathering, listening to political speeches. And it was this really bracing moment where you saw, no, this is not done. And in fact, that meeting was one of several that had taken place across the last number of days in various parts of Khartoum, trying to restart this revolution, get people to move past the depression of what happened on June 3, and to really instill a sense of hope again in the idea that Sudan’s revolution is not yet over.

[chanting and drumming]

declan walsh

There were a couple of moments where people raised this chant of [SPEAKING IN SUDANESE ARABIC], which means “civilian rule.” And the whole place rose, and everybody shouted together.

michael barbaro

Declan, thank you very much.

declan walsh

Thank you, Michael.

[chanting and drumming]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (donald trump) If the leadership of Iran behaves badly, then it’s going to be a very, very bad day for them. archived recording So what’s going on?

michael barbaro

Over the weekend, the president held out the possibility of a diplomatic solution to the standoff, saying he is eager to work with Iran if it gives up its aggressive behavior and its ambition of developing a nuclear weapon.

donald trump If Iran wants to become a wealthy nation again, become a prosperous nation, we’ll call it “let’s make Iran great again.” Does that make sense? Make Iran great again. It’s O.K. with me. But they’re never going to do it if they think, in five or six years, they’re going to have a nuclear weapon.

michael barbaro