0001

1 _________________________________________________

2

3 IN THE MATTER OF:

4

5

6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY

7

8 _________________________________________________

9

10

11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

12

13 VOLUME 1 OF 4

14 PAGES 1 - 246

15

16

17

18

19 JUNE 23RD, 1998

20

21

22

23

24

25

0002

1 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,

2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT

3

4 LOU SMIT

5 MIKE KANE

6 BRYAN MORGAN

7 DAVID WILLIAMS

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

0003

1 LOU SMIT: Today's date is Tuesday the

2 23rd of June 1998. The time is right at 9 o'clock.

3 What I'd like to have done, and there's a lot of

4 people that aren't on the camera, and for voice

5 identification and everything, I'd like everyone

6 to identify themselves and I'll start with myself

7 and we'll just go clockwise. I'm Lou Smit. I'm an

8 investigator for the Boulder County District

9 Attorney's office. I've been working on this case

10 since March of 1996 -- 1997, I'm Sorry. So John?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.

12 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm Bryan Morgan, and I'm

13 John's Lawyer.

14 DAVID WILLIAMS: David Williams, and I'm

15 an investigator for Bryan Morgan.

16 MIKE KANE: Michael Kane, and I'm Deputy

17 District Attorney in Boulder County.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. First of all, as you all

19 know, this is being audio and video recorded. And

20 that's a -- I think a real good thing to do. The

21 video is in black and white and we do have real

22 good facilities for audio recording.

23 I'd like to just start out and ask, first of all,

24 I'm so used to calling you Mr. Ramsey. Is it okay

25 to call you John?

0004

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

2 LOU SMIT: John, at this particular time,

3 do you have any medical problems at all that you

4 know of?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Are you under, taking any

7 medication?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: Taking Prozac.

9 LOU SMIT: Okay.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty milligrams in the

11 morning, ten milligrams at night.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. And who is the doctor?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, Dr. Sheevy, Catherine

14 Sheevy, is who I saw in Boulder. Well I haven't

15 seen her in a while. Steven Jaffee, Dr. Steven

16 Jaffee in Atlanta, prescribed the Prozac for me.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's actually Burke's

19 psychiatrist.

20 LOU SMIT: When was the last time you took

21 a pill?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: This morning.

23 LOU SMIT: This morning. About what time?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about 7:30.

25 LOU SMIT: And what is the dosage of that?

0005

1 JOHN RAMSEY: 20 milligrams.

2 LOU SMIT: And how do you actually feel,

3 mentally, right now?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I woke up on Eastern

5 Time, so I feel like I've been up for a while. But

6 I'm fine.

7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any problem with

8 this interview continuing?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

10 LOU SMIT: Is there anything that may be

11 influencing your thoughts or your ability to think

12 clearly at this time?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

14 LOU SMIT: In the first letter I wrote to

15 you, in passing, when we were first getting

16 involved in this, I did tell you that you and your

17 family would be treated with respect, and we'd do

18 anything in our power to find the killer of your

19 daughter and bring him or her to justice. Do you

20 remember that letter?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I do.

22 LOU SMIT: We still intend to do this. And

23 we need your help. And we do need to work

24 together.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. Well, you folks have

0006

1 always treated us with respect. And I think it's

2 important for you to know from our perspective on

3 this. We've been looking forward to this when you

4 called, and we've been anxious to have an open

5 dialog with the people that are trying to solve

6 this crime. And, from the beginning, we felt that

7 the, rightly or wrongly, that the Boulder police

8 were not of that frame of mind. That they were,

9 frankly, out to lynch us and that dialog was never

10 able to be established. So our intent is to just

11 be open and ongoing, and there's no higher

12 priority in our lives priority in our lives than

13 to find out who did this. If we can help do that,

14 we'll spend 24 hours a day, if we need to. So,

15 that's how Patsy and I look at this. So, we're

16 here to help.

17 LOU SMIT: All right. What I'm going to do

18 -- you sent a letter in April of 1998. And it

19 looked like a personal letter from you sent to

20 Bryan Morgan, I believe, and we got a copy. If you

21 don't mind, what I'd like to do is read that into

22 the record? Can I do that? Do you have any problem

23 with that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No problem.

25 LOU SMIT: This is -- first of all, the

0007

1 letter that we have from Bryan Morgan is dated

2 April 15th, 1998, and it's a hand-delivery letter,

3 and it's addressed to Alex Hunter. And Bryan

4 Morgan writes in his own handwriting,

5 (Dear Alex, as you know, we proposed last week

6 that the Ramsey's meet with Detective Smit with a

7 Boulder police officer present. The Ramseys regret

8 that this proposal was not accepted and won't --

9 and want to renew their offer to meet with

10 Detective Smit. I have been instructed to deliver

11 this letter from John Ramsey to you so that you

12 may know his feelings in his words.̃

13 And it's signed John Ramsey. Mr. Ramsey, I don't

14 know if I can read your writing very well, and I

15 would like you to read it, if you will?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: (Dear Mr. Hunter, I'm writing

17 this letter because it seems difficult at times to

18 communicate through attorneys who are focused on

19 protecting my rights as a citizen. I want to be

20 very clear on our family's position. We have no

21 trust or confidence in the Boulder police. They

22 have tried, from moment they walked into our home

23 on December 26th, 1996, to convince others that

24 Patsy or I or Burke killed JonBenet. I will hold

25 them accountable forever for one thing: not

0008

1 accepting help from people who offered it in the

2 beginning and could have brought a wealth of

3 experience to bear on the crime. We, myself and

4 Patsy and Burke, John Andrew and Melinda will meet

5 any time, anywhere, for as long as you want with

6 investigators from your office.

7 If the purpose of a grand jury is to be

8 able to talk to us, that is not necessary. We want

9 to find the killer of our daughter and sister and

10 work with you 24 hours a day to find it.̃

11 I can't refer to this thing as a person

12 frankly.

13 (If we are subpoenaed by a grand jury, we will

14 testify regardless of any previous meeting with

15 your investigators. I'm living my life for two

16 purposes now: to find the killer of JonBenet and

17 bring it to the maximum justice our society can

18 impose. While there is a rage within me that says,

19 give me a few minutes alone with this creature and

20 there won't be a need for a trial, I would then

21 have succumb to the behavior which the killer did.

22 Secondly, my living children must not have to live

23 under the legacy that our entertainment industry

24 has given them based on false information and a

25 frenzy created on our family's misery to achieve

0009

1 substantial profit.

2 It's time rise above all this pettiness

3 and politics and get down to the most difficult

4 mission: finding JonBenet's killer. That's wall we

5 care about. The police cannot do it. I hope it is

6 not too late to investigate this crime properly at

7 last.

8 Finally, I am willing and able to put up

9 a substantial reward, one million dollars, through

10 the help of friends if this will help derive

11 information. I know this would be used against us

12 by the media dimwits. But I don't care. Please,

13 let's all do what is right to get this worst of

14 all killer in our midst. Sincerely, John Ramsey.̃

15 LOU SMIT: Thank you, John. I would just

16 like to ask you a couple things about that letter.

17 First of all, where did you write this letter at?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in David Williams'

19 kitchen.

20 At his counter.

21 LOU SMIT: And is that here in --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Here in Denver. Yeah.

23 LOU SMIT: And what prompted you to write

24 that letter? I mean you hadn't written a letter

25 before like that.

0010

1 JOHN RAMSEY: We just finally came to the

2 end of our rope in terms of frustration with what

3 we viewed as silliness. We, frankly, tried to

4 communicate through -- actually it was Pat Burke,

5 Patsy's attorney who was visiting with us and we

6 said, look, this is ridiculous --

7 BRYAN MORGAN: Excuse me. I really can't

8 get into, and let John get into conversations that

9 happened with the lawyers. That's a problem that I

10 just have to protect. Some the privileges have

11 waived for all purposes. I'm perfectly (INAUDIBLE)

12 for this conversation to be put on the record if

13 there's an understanding that this is not a

14 waiver. But the attorney/client privilege in

15 general. I understand, but I do have to watch out

16 for this. If that's okay with Mr. Kane, and it's

17 not a full-scale waiver, then go ahead and you may

18 talk about that conversation.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Well, we were, I guess

20 very frustrated that we couldn't seem to get off

21 the dime with a serious investigation with good

22 communication. There seemed to be just a lot of

23 frivolous motives floating around that were

24 preventing a serious investigation from taking

25 place. And we asked Pat to communicate with the

0011

1 district attorney's office, that we were here, we

2 would meet with them right now if they wanted to.

3 But let's get this thing figured out. And,

4 frankly, in listening to Pat say what I wanted to

5 say over the phone, I could see that there was a

6 filtering going on, not intentionally, but a

7 filtering of my emotions. And so I sat down and

8 wrote the letter and I said to Brian, I said,

9 (Here, you either deliver this or tear it up, but

10 don't change it.̃ And he called me about a week

11 later and said, (Well, I just delivered it.̃ And

12 that's how the letter came about.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. I would like to ask you

14 just a little bit. It seems to me like the letter

15 indicates that this is a 100 percent commitment on

16 your part?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

18 LOU SMIT: What limitations do you have on

19 that? Are there any limitations that you're

20 putting on this?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: None. We want -- as long as

22 we are working with an objective investigation,

23 there are no limitations.

24

25 LOU SMIT: So we can contact you at any time?

0012

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely, as far as I'm

2 concerned.

3 LOU SMIT: Have you talked to Bryan

4 about this? I'm mean this has always been a

5 problem. What's been happening is that, we want to

6 conduct an investigation. We go through the

7 lawyers at the District Attorney's office. We're

8 obligated to always go through an attorney if a

9 person is represented by an attorney.

10 We cannot even contact John or Patsy

11 in person without going through attorneys. And by

12 the time it gets from two of our attorneys to four

13 of your attorneys, and a decision is made and

14 comes back, a great deal of time is expended. And

15 I'm not saying that it has to be that way. I'm

16 just saying, is there a way that we can streamline

17 this process. Because there's going to times,

18 especially if we're working in the intruder

19 theory, that we're going to want to just make a

20 telephone call. I know, because of this and the

21 focus of that's on this case, that's a very

22 difficult thing to do. And I know that lawyers

23 want to protect their client.

24 A lot of times I may come up with a name or one of

25 the investigators may come up with a name. We just

0013

1 want to say, (John, do you know who this is?̃

2 (No.̃ I don't know what can be arranged. That's up

3 to the lawyers and people to do. But, John, I

4 don't know how you feel. But then --

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I --

6 LOU SMIT: -- I'm not going to advise you

7 on that. But I'm just letting you know.

8 BRYAN MORGAN: Let me say this much. And I,

9 I want to spare everybody a long speech. But, I

10 take it that at least you, Detective Smit,

11 understand why we truly do not believe that we

12 have any confidence in the Boulder Police

13 Department. When we have given leads to the

14 Boulder Police Department, those leads have been

15 turned around and used to poison the well against

16 us. With the people that we have good faith said,

17 (You at least should consider looking into . . .̃

18 and I (INAUDIBLE) but I won't.

19 So, what I would do, and John follows his

20 own lead. It was John who wrote that letter; it

21 was not with my prompting. And he did it because

22 of the frustration he felt at not being able to

23 communicate. The background of that was, we had

24 made an offer to Commander Becker to sit and talk,

25 and the offer was essentially rejected unless it

0014

1 could be this, that and the other. And that was

2 not what John had in mind.

3 I will put it this way. Let us see how long

4 we go this week. Let us see and make our own

5 judgment at the end of it (INAUDIBLE). What was

6 happening and what sort of investigation is being

7 run. And then I will talk with John, and John, as

8 always, will do what he sees fit. We do not want

9 to put impediments in the course of any sort of

10 conversation of the type you described: (John, do

11 you know this person? Can you tell us anything

12 about this subject, this object?̃

13 We don't want to put blockages there, but,

14 because half of everything we talk about winds up

15 being printed in the press and turned against us

16 in half-truths. We have a long history of being

17 very skeptical; not at you and not at the district

18 attorney's office. Let's see if we can get over

19 it. I say let's go through the next several days

20 and we'll see where we are.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you know, we would

22 -- the last thing in our mind on December 26th,

23 was that we would be considered suspects. It was

24 hard for us to believe that we were considered

25 suspects. We accepted that and there's been a

0015

1 countless number of instances where believe not

2 only were we suspects, but we were hunted

3 suspects. And these fellows, frankly, in my mind

4 were there to protect us as citizens and protect

5 our rights.

6 I would love not to have attorneys and

7 let's get on with this and figure out who did

8 this. And I'm encouraged that the investigation

9 that has started now, started with the meeting

10 with Burke and Dan Schuler and Pete Hofstrom is

11 the start of what should have happened 18 months

12 ago. And so I'm very encouraged and look at this

13 as a fresh start, I guess. It should have happened

14 18 months ago.

15 Frankly, if we're wrong, we owe a lot of

16 people an apology. But our view is that the

17 cruelty that was willfully imposed on us and our

18 family by Boulder police was only exceeded by what

19 the killer did to us. And that's our perspective.

20 and so that's behind us, let's move forward and,

21 you know, we've said it, we said it for 18 months

22 that, you know, we'll be here 24 hours a day if we

23 need, if that's helpful. So, I mean that's how I

24 feel.

25 LOU SMIT: Well, you know, it just seems

0016

1 what the public perception of it is: is that you

2 offered to do this in the past, to come in and to

3 talk. And then all of a sudden you don't talk. For

4 instance, like that CNN interview, for instance

5 where you said you'd be in --

6 JOHN RAMSEY: And we came back to Boulder

7 and it was extremely difficult. Patsy, as we came

8 over that hill coming down the valley, Patsy broke

9 down in tears. We almost turned around and went

10 back to stay in Denver. But we were coming back to

11 help with how, you know, what we could help with.

12 And we sat down with Mike Bynum the next morning

13 and he said, (Look, there's something you aught to

14 know. Here's what the police are doing. And they

15 refuse to release your daughter's body for burial

16 until you came in for an interrogation.̃ And he

17 was in tears.

18 LOU SMIT: Now this was after June?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: This was after June. He said,

20 (I took care of it.̃ He said, (We had a lot of

21 shouting matches and it was taken care of. But you

22 need to understand these people are not your

23 friends.̃ So we kind of sat back and said, (whoa.̃

24 And that set the or reset our perception against,

25 I guess, of what was really going on. And so, then

0017

1 we offered -- I remember once offered -- we were

2 in very bad shape. We were in shock, we were on

3 medication. We went to bed at 6 o'clock at night.

4 And we offered -- until we finally worked out

5 we're okay. We're going to come in Wednesday

6 morning when the police came back and said, (No,

7 no, no. Six o'clock Friday night we want you to be

8 here alone.̃ We're not even capable of holding a

9 conversation that time of day. And it was, to us,

10 very obvious what they're trying to do.

11 And so this whole arena of trust just went

12 from, frankly, total trust on the morning of the

13 26th to zero trust by two weeks later. And it

14 never has gotten any better. And so it's been very

15 frustrating for us as we look at our daughter and

16 the life of the precious child that was lost and

17 we're dealing with all this pettiness. And then

18 one detective said, (Well, you know, there's a lot

19 of careers on the line here.̃ And my answer was,

20 (Careers? I don't even care about careers. And

21 that's the problem. Your motive is wrong.̃

22 But, you know, we've been hurt as much as

23 we can be hurt. Nobody can hurt us anymore. And

24 we've been hurt. Let's sit down and figure out who

25 the heck did this. But we never could seem to get

0018

1 to that point where there was an honest effort on

2 both parties' parts.

3 LOU SMIT: You know, gentlemen, I know this

4 is going to be a tough question. I'm kind of

5 winging it here. But some people even say that no

6 matter what, a parent would come in. even if you

7 were feeling bad. How do you answer that?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: We've made lot's of offers to

9 come in. the day after the 27th they came over the

10 Fernie's where we were staying, in horribly bad

11 shape. I slept on the floor that night and then we

12 did well to get up the next day.

13 The police came in and we sat and talked with

14 them. They said, (Well, you know, we really want

15 you to come down to the station for an interview.̃

16 We said, (Look, we will talk to you the following

17 morning. But we can't leave this sanctuary, this

18 home.̃ It was just beyond our mental capacity to

19 get up, get dressed, go out into the media frenzy,

20 which was starting to develop.

21 And there's always been that offer on our part.

22 And it was always rejected in the condition, in

23 such a manner that we said, look, these people are

24 up to no good as far as we're concerned.

25 So, yeah, if could have called out the National

0019

1 Guard, I would have, if it had been in power. That

2 was my first reaction that morning. Let's close

3 the airport, let's put up roadblocks. What we got

4 to do here? But I finally just lost total

5 confidence in the Boulder Police. There's no

6 sense. We stared our own investigation last summer

7 because we, we didn't think anybody else was

8 investigating the crime.

9 MIKE KANE: John's attorney said there were

10 certain conditions and they were put on. What

11 conditions are you talking about specifically so

12 we can --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: By the police?

14 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, on the 27th, they said,

16 (Well, we want you to come to the police station.̃

17 We said, (We're mentally not capable.̃ Our family

18 doctor was there. He said Patsy was in no

19 condition to leave this house. They said, (Well,

20 we've got to have you come to the police station.̃

21 I said why, he said, (Well we have records there

22 we want to pull out and look at.̃

23 And we said, (We can't. If you come here we'll

24 spend as much time as you want. But we physically

25 cannot be there.̃ And that's when Mike Bynum

0020

1 stepped in and said, wait a minute, time out. And

2 he was there delivering food; he's a friend of

3 mine and he happened to be an attorney and he

4 smelled a rat, frankly.

5 LOU SMIT: Now this was while you were at

6 Fernie's?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

8 LOU SMIT: Is that the first time that you

9 contacted the lawyer, that they contacted you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: He was there. He was bringing

11 food over from Pasta Jay's, and just happened to

12 be there when the police were trying to haul us

13 down to the police station, and he said time out.

14 He took me inside and he said, (John, there's some

15 things going here. Would you allow me to do what I

16 think is necessary?̃ and I said, (Of course.̃

17 LOU SMIT: And what did he do, John?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, but you'd

19 have to ask him, I guess. But I suspect what he

20 did is take the police aside and say, stop. You

21 cannot do what you're doing to these people. And

22 he arranged to bring Bryan in and Pat and were

23 just kind of on autopilot there. And frankly,

24 skeptical, why did we need to do this.

25 But as time went on we became more and more

0021

1 confused of what the police trying to do. They

2 were trying to put a square peg in a round hole,

3 and we're the square peg. And, you know, it was an

4 extremely frustrating time for us. It still is.

5 Cause we know we didn't do it; there's a killer

6 out there.

7 LOU SMIT: Well, right now, John, it sounds

8 a lot to me like you're kind of letting go of the

9 lawyer and coming down. It's almost like starting

10 over. It just seems to happen, just in your own

11 words, how you explained that.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I would love not to have

13 attorneys in the middle of this. In fact, as long

14 as we are considered suspects in the murder case,

15 I got to have an attorney. That's the way I look

16 at it. That's always kind of been my guideline. If

17 it was said to us in January, (Look we don't

18 really think you are suspects,̃ I would have no

19 need for an attorney. But that's, you know, the

20 police said we're under an umbrella of suspicion.

21 Frankly, I think if they were honest about it,

22 they should say we're their number one suspect and

23 there are no other.

24 That's what we believe. Now, if we're wrong, we're

25 horribly wrong. But given that, and that's our

0022

1 belief, you know, having guidance, I guess, in

2 this whole area to protect us is important. You

3 know, we've had detectives come in. They came in

4 one morning into my son's apartment, college

5 students, and barged in and, (we want to talk to

6 you boys.̃ And they said, well one of the kids

7 said, (Well, gee, I need to call my dad and maybe

8 talk to his attorney.̃ The detective said, (Well,

9 innocent people don't need attorneys.̃ And what a

10 slam, you know.

11 LOU SMIT: That is, you know, that's the

12 perception that (INAUDIBLE) have.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's -- the law in the

14 hands of bigots is a dangerous thing. And,

15 frankly, that's what we have here.

16 LOU SMIT: If I might just make a couple

17 comments on that. You know, I've been here like

18 for 16 (INAUDIBLE) and it appears as though the

19 investigation focuses on two areas: the Ramseys

20 and on an intruder.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

22 LOU SMIT: And I know that a lot of work

23 has been done in regards to you. But see, John, I

24 have to stick up for the Boulder Police Department

25 a little bit. I don't know what all personally

0023

1 went with you. But they initially focused on you

2 because of certain things that happened in the

3 house and that they found. And you were in the

4 house. So, as a detective, I myself would have

5 probably have done that. I would have probably

6 said, (Wait a minute, I got to put you on the

7 front burner, John.̃ And I gotta do that.

8 So, in fairness to them, I think that they

9 started off doing what detectives do. They take

10 the most logical thing that's happened. You were

11 there; there were strange circumstances that

12 occurred and we'll get into these here a little

13 bit later. And so they would focus on you

14 initially. And I would. I'd do the same thing. And

15 I'd concentrate my investigation on you. And

16 really, what detectives do, they aren't supposed

17 to make judgments. What they are supposed to do is

18 to focus on an area of the investigation and

19 collect and record information. That's what

20 detectives do. That's all we're supposed to do.

21 Then we're supposed to take this information to a

22 prosecutor or to other people that evaluate this

23 information. And then they make a determination as

24 to whether there will be charges filed.

25 So really, as detectives, even on the Boulder

0024

1 Police Department, that's what they were doing

2 initially, is gathering information. And, sure,

3 they gathered a whole lot of it. And, John, on

4 this area, there's going to be way more

5 information gathered.

6 But that's how I would look at it. It's

7 information. I'm not going conclude that you're

8 guilty because of this. And I'm not going to

9 conclude that an intruder is guilty. I'm going to

10 collect information and then let other people

11 evaluate that. What do you say to that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.

13 We never objected to being looked at. We

14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.

15 Okay. We accept that in an objective

16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,

17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;

18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the

19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They

20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm

21 anxious to tell someone.

22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.

23 It started to occur to us that they're just

24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,

25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing

0025

1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,

2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look

3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never

4 got comfortable that there was anything going on

5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys.

6 LOU SMIT: No, John, just from looking at

7 the case report, and again, in respect of the

8 police department, they have looked into other

9 areas. I know that there's been a lot of focus on

10 you, but I looked at every one of those reports.

11 There's been a lot of work done in other ways. And

12 I know from your perception it seems like that --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

14 LOU SMIT: -- but they have done a lot of

15 work.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, and I say, we may be

17 totally wrong and owe a lot of apologies, but what

18 I want to do is just frame what our perception is

19 so you understand.

20 LOU SMIT: Well, when you're through being

21 put under the microscope with inspection, it will

22 point to what actually happened. The microscope

23 can't lie. But the person that looks through it

24 possible can interpret it different.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we know a lot of effort

0026

1 has been put into this and we're grateful for

2 that. And, you know, I sometimes find myself

3 thinking, (Gee, those guys are working their butts

4 off and we're criticizing them.̃ But then

5 something will come up which will just confirm our

6 suspicions. And so we've never been able to get

7 over that trust area.

8 And I don't mind having -- we've got nothing to

9 hide. They can look at anything and ask us

10 anything and, that's always been our position. But

11 I guess there's got to be a level of trust in the

12 objectivity of the -- in the relationship, I

13 guess, with the investigation. I've never done

14 this before.

15 It's very hurtful to have be what you thought was

16 a very good parent and a loving parent, and then

17 to have lost a child, and then to be accused of,

18 at least, accused by inclusion in the suspect

19 list, of hurting your child. It's beyond anything

20 you can comprehend was possible.

21 LOU SMIT: How is Patsy doing?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy is doing pretty good.

23 She's, as she said, very well. She's been hurt as

24 much as she could be hurt. So there's nothing else

25 that anybody can do to her that would hurt her

0027

1 anymore than the loss of JonBenet. So we can take

2 a lot of blows once you've taken a big one like

3 that.

4 LOU SMIT: Okay. If I can continue this a

5 little bit here. Bryan, do you have any comments

6 you would like to make in regards to that? I mean

7 --

8 BRYAN MORGAN: I have a lot of comments

9 I'd

10 like to make about how this attitude came about.

11 But, frankly, I don't think that's productive.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm happy to document the

14 reasons why we acted the way we did. I seriously

15 doubt anybody running a professional investigation

16 would have done the media lakes that still occur.

17 And I'm not convinced people are just gathering

18 information and trying to give it to the district

19 attorney. I think they're still fighting a media

20 war (INAUDIBLE) side just to try to get the

21 district attorney's office to file charges.

22 So, I'll leave it at that.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't think that's the way

25 you operate. And we'll go forward.

0028

1 MIKE KANE: Yeah. And, for the record, the

2 investigator is biting his tongue through all of

3 this.

4 BRYAN MORGAN: Never mind. Let's go, let's

5 go. They need to talk to this man, not us.

6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's -- if we catch the

7 person that did this, if we catch the killer, and

8 we've never lost confidence that we can, we're

9 going to need to prosecute him or her. And we do

10 want a conviction on this person. And we want him

11 punished as payment for that horrible and brutal

12 crime they committed. And do you agree with this?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: One hundred percent.

14 LOU SMIT: First of all, the defense most

15 likely would be that you and patsy are the, if we

16 catch him, that you and Patsy are the ones

17 involved in (INAUDIBLE). And I think that's

18 probably going to be (INAUDIBLE) if we do catch

19 this guy. And they may think that we can't

20 eliminate you as a suspect. So, for that reason

21 alone, we must take steps now to prove your

22 innocence.

23 And I know one thing about investigation: it

24 shouldn't only be used to prove guilt, but

25 innocence as well. And that's why we need all of

0029

1 the help that you can give us. Now, we cannot

2 actively pursue and convict this individual if you

3 and Patsy are in the way of the investigation.

4 We've got to get past you, and the sooner the

5 better.

6 For the past year and a half, you and Patsy have

7 been in the picture. In fact, you have been the

8 picture. There's been very little room for anyone

9 else. This procedure is not going to be easy. What

10 we're going to be going through, even at the

11 district attorney's office. In fact, you may

12 perceive it, even though it seems like you have

13 trust and confidence in us, that it's going to be

14 harsh, cruel, insensitive, uncaring and demeaning.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I trust you objectivity and

16 your experience.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: That's what I trust. And that's

19 all we've ever asked for in the investigation.

20 LOU SMIT: But you may feel this.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine. We put ourselves

22 up for that.

23 LOU SMIT: If you think you were under a

24 magnifying glass with the police department, you

25 better be aware that you'll be place under more

0030

1 scrutiny now. You'll be looked at under a

2 microscope, like I mentioned before, by the

3 prosecutors.

4 My role, as I see it, is to work towards

5 investigating the case and collecting and

6 recording information. Mike Kane, even, was hired

7 to look into the grand jury proceedings. He and

8 others involved in the case will take a fair look

9 at all of the information obtained, and will look

10 very closely into all aspects of the case.

11 We will both be asking questions in different ways

12 in our own areas from now on. In our discussion,

13 Mike emphasized that he will look, not only into

14 family involvement, but he'll look into the

15 intruder aspect of it also. In many instances it

16 will seem that we're concentrating only on you and

17 Patsy. And in some cases we will be. However, not

18 necessarily to convict, but also to prove

19 innocence. And that's what I mentioned before.

20 When everything is completed, the truth should be

21 evident and you should be able to go on with your

22 lives in a fairly normal way.

23 Now, Mike, do you have anything to day at this

24 time?

25 MICHALE KANE: I do. Mr. Ramsey, I'm somewhat

0031

1 new on the scene here. We've never been

2 introduced. But I just wanted to say, I mean from

3 a prosecutor's perspective, I come into this as a

4 lawyer and probably not even just as a lawyer, as

5 a prosecutor with a different mentality.

6 Investigators go out and dig up leads and

7 information.

8 I always think in terms of down the road. I'm sure

9 Bryan is the same way, when you're evaluating

10 things, you're think: how is going to be in court;

11 how is this going to play out. And so it gives me

12 from a different perspective in some regards.

13 The one thing that I wanted to emphasize, and with

14 what Lou has been saying is that, let's

15 (INAUDIBLE) down the road that someday there's

16 evidence that develops against an individual in

17 your home that night. And enough evidence develops

18 that we can file charges against that individual.

19 And, in short of some kind of confession or

20 whatever, we have to go to trial and prove that

21 person's guilt. There is no question, and you've

22 seen it because you've lived with it for a year

23 and a half, there is no question that the defense

24 is going to be, (It wasn't my guy. It was the

25 people living in the house.̃

0032

1 And, of course, as a prosecutor, our goal is to

2 prove guilt of that individual beyond a reasonable

3 doubt. And the flip side of that is, that the

4 defense only has to suggest to create a reasonable

5 doubt that maybe you were involved.

6 And so from my perspective, and I think Lou and I

7 talked about this since the day I came in, and

8 everybody in the D.A.'s office, I think, looked at

9 it the same way. In fact, as Lou said, we have to

10 prove -- if we're going to prove it's an intruder,

11 we have to prove your innocence.

12 And what that means is, is that a defense attorney

13 is going to go after you with a lot of very tough

14 questions to suggest that reasonable doubt. That

15 means I have to do the same thing. Because I have

16 to know the answers before any defense attorney

17 brings them up in the trial.

18 So I just want you to understand that, if I ask a

19 question, and I read your interviews with the

20 police department before. I know how it can get

21 uncomfortable if you get (INAUDIBLE). Would you

22 please try to understand, I'm going to ask a

23 question because I'm going to play the role that a

24 defense attorney is going to play and I just have

25 to hear what the answer will be.

0033

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's an interesting

2 perspective. It's one I hadn't even thought about

3 is. I mean, my hope is that, you know, this person

4 is caught and they confess, and that's it. And

5 there's some --

6 MIKE KANE: I mean --

7 JOHN RAMSEY: -- some piece of evidence that

8 confirms their confession and off we go. But I

9 never thought of that scenario, frankly.

10 MIKE KANE: Well, let me just add. So

11 truthfully it becomes absolutely -- you were in

12 the Navy. And there's a term -- I was never in the

13 Navy, but I know that there's a term called

14 (quibbling̃, and you know what quibbling is?

15 Technically true, but misleading.

16 So it's very important to not only give the truth,

17 the technical truth, but there's no quibbling

18 about it. But if something doesn't fit, but it's

19 the truth, just tell us the truth and we'll deal

20 with that.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

22 LOU SMIT: You know, Mike also has assured

23 me in many discussions that we've talked about,

24 that there will be a two-way investigation.

25 Definitely. In other words, investigations that we

0034

1 can cover the aspects he just said and also into

2 the intruder. So, he has assured me that, and

3 thank God we can do more on that, maybe no. I

4 don't know. I think we can. Part of the thing I

5 want do with you while you're here is, I've got a

6 tone of leads that I would like to discuss with

7 you.

8 JOHN RAMSEY: Wonderful.

9 LOU SMIT: And it won't be coming right away,

10 but that's why I didn't know how much time you had

11 to spend with us.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here indefinitely as

13 far as I'm concerned. So, you know.

14 LOU SMIT: Would you like to take a little

15 break or anything or are you just --?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine. If this would

17 have been said to us 18 months ago, it would have

18 been a whole different picture, frankly. So, I

19 mean, I'm frankly, I would love to not have

20 attorneys. I mean, first of all, they've depleted

21 most of most of my life savings. But, to say

22 regretfully, I concluded that they are necessary.

23 LOU SMIT: We'll get on it (INAUDIBLE). We

24 have to proceed, because it's just too important

25 for us to --

0035

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well anyway. You know,

2 I think about all the man-hours and the focus and

3 the sacrifices I know you've made to find this

4 killer. And, on behalf of JonBenet, thank you.

5 LOU SMIT: I appreciate that. And there

6 has been a lot of others that have done the same.

7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. I know that.

8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) detectives in court

9 themselves --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I know they have. I know they

11 have.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. We'll restart at 20 till

13 10 and we'll just kind of continue on with this.

14 But it's going a lot quicker than what I thought

15 and that's real good.

16 Now we have amassed pages and pages of questions

17 and from all kinds of sources, and there's almost

18 too many questions to handle, even at this time.

19 It's just that people have come in, the Boulder

20 Police Department has come in and they have

21 experts that supplied us with questions. They knew

22 were coming in today. And so we got questions from

23 a lot of different areas. And some of them are

24 hard questions; some of them are just normal

25 questions. Some of them we're going to have to

0036

1 ask, the majority of them. There are certain

2 questions that I'm sure that we won't be able to

3 do that.

4 That's part of this procedure. You're here and we

5 can do this at this time. It seems like they need

6 most of the information. So we'll just go from

7 there. And I don't know if I said this before, but

8 it's our job to prove innocence, not yours.

9 You know, I was going to ask you if there was any

10 place you would like to start this because I want

11 you to feel comfortable in this interview.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think I wanted you to

13 know our perspective, which I think we talked

14 about. So where (INAUDIBLE) start is fine.

15 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you have any specific

16 questions about certain things in the case or

17 evidence (INAUDIBLE). There's some things I give

18 answers to and there's some things that I can't.

19 But I'll try, within certain limits, to answer

20 your questions too. But I'd appreciate if you

21 would kind of hold them until a little bit later

22 and we'll see what we can do about that.

23 And we're just going to just start. This is right

24 off the bat, John. Give us your thoughts and

25 feelings as to what happened to your daughter that

0037

1 night? Personal. Any kind of thoughts.

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you hope that she didn't

3 suffer. And if I let myself think beyond that,

4 it's too difficult. But my hope is that she didn't

5 suffer. And, as far as (INAUDIBLE) this, I don't

6 know. Like I have not let myself think about that

7 too much, frankly.

8 LOU SMIT: have you or your investigative

9 team discussed different aspects of this as to

10 what could have happened? Do you have any insight

11 on that? You've been probably investigating this

12 for, you know, the length of time that we have. I

13 mean, if it's not you, obviously it has to be

14 (INAUDIBLE).

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: What is your perspective on that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think, obviously we

18 know it was an intruder, first of all. We spend

19 some time with John Douglas, who is a profiler for

20 the FBI, and he basically said it's someone that

21 you know. It's somebody that's been in the house

22 and it's somebody that's angry with you or

23 jealous. And, you know, we try to put that box

24 around it. We come up and say that we don't know

25 anybody that evil. And so it's very difficult for

0038

1 us to say, well you know it must have been

2 so-and-so, because we don't know anybody that

3 evil.

4 We were getting to be a little more higher profile

5 in the community than I was comfortable with. I

6 thought about security, hadn't done really done

7 anything about it. But there'd been an article in

8 the paper a couple weeks before about our company

9 had just past a billion dollars in sales. And I

10 had this gut feeling when they wanted to do that

11 publicity, that we shouldn't do it. But they had

12 it already rolling and they'd contacted the

13 camera. So I let them go ahead and do it.

14 I don't know if that kind of publicity elevated

15 this in somebody's mind. JonBenet was in a

16 Christmas parade, the December Christmas Parade.

17 In retrospect, after, you know, that was something

18 which she shouldn't have done.

19 One of the things I guess we realized about

20 all this, there's some very nice people. There's

21 some very good people in the world and there's

22 some very bad people. They're around you and you

23 just better be aware of them. And we were naive.

24 We felt we were in a safe community. We thought

25 all people were like us, basically pretty good

0039

1 people. And that's not true.

2 So I wonder if those, either of those two events

3 might have elevated us into the cross hairs of

4 this maniac. And if they were angry at me, why

5 didn't they take it out on me? If they were angry

6 at me, why didn't they take it out on my son? Why

7 JonBenet?

8 LOU SMIT: Why do you say (theỹ John?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: (It.̃ I don't feel I have

10 (INAUDIBLE). I mean, I don't know. I mean, I in my

11 mind think that there's one person; one creature.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you have a mental picture of

13 this person?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I thought about that.

15 Again, that's too hard to think about.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. And I know, John, that it

17 really hurts to talk about this guy, but that's

18 probably all you've thought about since day one.

19 You must have a mental picture of the type of

20 person this is. I mean, in your mind. I know I

21 have a mental picture of various people that I

22 would look at. But I'm sure you think about this

23 all the time.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, absolutely, everyday. You

25 know. Of course, my first instinct is, it was a

0040

1 man. Because of some of the similarities,

2 apparently in Patsy's handwriting, I wondered if

3 it was a woman. The ransom note seemed childish,

4 in terms of a young person. I think this person

5 was very sick or trying to be very clever.

6 You know, if they really wanted to do this, hurt

7 us and walk away, why did they go to the trouble

8 of leaving a ransom note? When Mike Bynum said,

9 (Thank God they left a ransom note.̃ You know, why

10 is that? And it finally dawned on me what he

11 meant. They left us a piece of evidence. They were

12 clever enough not to leave much else, apparently.

13 I think it's say somebody that's very sick, thinks

14 they're very clever, is playing games. You know,

15 we heard about the two Bible verses, Psalms, that

16 were circled in some book. I don't know, some

17 book or not. I was not told that directly. We

18 heard it through the backdoor.

19 LOU SMIT: You didn't circle Bible passages?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving

21 little clues to analyze this. I think entry was

22 gained through the basement window.

23 LOU SMIT: Why do you think that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Because the window was cracked

25 open. There was this large suitcase under it, as

0041

1 if it was used to climb out. That suitcase didn't

2 belong there. I think the person was in the house,

3 if not when we got home, shortly after. I think

4 she was killed that night, versus in the morning.

5 LOU SMIT: What makes you think that?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the note talked about

7 (I'm going to call you tomorrow.̃ And we debated,

8 it was like tomorrow tomorrow, or tomorrow today.

9 And, of course, we hoped it was today, you know,

10 the 26th. When I found her, she was -- her body

11 was cooled. Her arms were stiff. And that was it.

12 (INAUDIBLE) that morning.

13 Yet it was ironic that we were home that night. We

14 were leaving the next day for a second Christmas

15 with our older children and then we were coming

16 back from there. And we had bought and paid for

17 tickets on the (Big Red Boat.̃ It was to be our

18 first family cruise, first time we'd ever taken a

19 cruise. The kids were looking forward to that. And

20 it was just our misfortune that we were home that

21 night, or somebody knew our schedule. I don't

22 know.

23 LOU SMIT: See, John, we're going to get

24 into a lot of that, in specifics. That's why I'm

25 glad you're bringing it up a little bit now,

0042

1 because it's in your mind. And later on we'll take

2 all of those specific items and we'll kind of go

3 over it. And then we're going to look at what was

4 said, and then we may go over them again, because

5 I that may prompt more questions as we go.

6 That's why I wanted to kind of just test you

7 recall and just see how you felt about that.

8 There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of

9 people that maybe you didn't know anything about

10 the murder, but maybe Patsy did. I know that's a

11 hard question. It's one of the hard ones I have to

12 ask you. But what do you fell about that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Monstrous. I mean, Patsy loves

14 both her children dearly. But frankly, she and

15 JonBenet were extremely close and Patsy fought

16 back from Stage Four ovarian cancer, which

17 probably, she had it five years ago, would have

18 been fatal in a few months. She fought back to

19 live so she could be with the children. And I knew

20 that. And she said that later, she said that she

21 was too young to leave those children. That kept

22 her going and it gave her the will to fight to

23 beat it. And she beat it.

24 Plus she's probably the kindest, least

25 mean-spirited person I know. There's not a mean

0043

1 bone in Patsy's body against anyone, let alone her

2 children. So, it's just, I mean it's absolutely

3 out of the question.

4 LOU SMIT: See, John, I know these are really

5 tough. And that's why we have to go into them,

6 because the defense attorney is going to do all of

7 this in spades and, not only that, but we have to

8 know the answers to questions which people

9 perceive. They have their own perception on a

10 question. And it's a lot better to have it come

11 out of your mouth, and we'll bring up these things

12 again.

13 And that's why, you know, Patsy's demeanor,

14 we're going to really go into that. We need to

15 have answers to all of that so that people don't

16 perceive it in a different way. And, again, all of

17 this is information that we're collecting. What

18 better place, than from you? That's what I said

19 since the beginning. You are our best source of

20 information. And here we haven't been able to

21 contact you or do that.

22 So, what do you want to happen to the person who

23 did this?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought about that everyday.

25 And there's certainly the Christian side of me

0044

1 that says, you know, forgive others' trespasses.

2 But what I've concluded is, that, you know, that

3 there is forgiveness, but there is accountability.

4 And this person must be held accountable.

5 Now, okay, what's accountability? I've gone from,

6 you know, hang him by the neck until dead in the

7 public square to put a tattoo on his forehead that

8 said, (I killed JonBenet,̃ and let him go through

9 life that way. But that's the rage within me.

10 Sometimes it's just is there, frankly. But, you've

11 got to try to put in the Christian perspective as

12 to what -- how should I really feel.

13 Fundamentally, I would want the harshest, cruelest

14 treatment that our society can put on an

15 individual for doing this.

16 LOU SMIT: Including?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, to me, the worst

18 thing that you can do is put a tattoo on his

19 forehead that said, (I'm a child killer,̃ and let

20 him go out in the street. We've had to live with

21 this for 18 months. We'll have to live with this

22 for the rest of our lives.

23 My family, my children, this has affected a lot of

24 lives. Plus, JonBenet's life has been lost. She

25 could have been a significant contributor to the

0045

1 world and that opportunity is gone. And whoever

2 did this needs to suffer.

3 LOU SMIT: You know, you mentioned religion

4 before. I think even in our past, we briefly

5 discussed that. Tell us a little bit about your

6 religious beliefs? And I know this is a personal

7 thing; I know it is personal to me. If you don't

8 mind, just kind of --

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I as an occasional

10 Sunday Christian, I guess, for years. My mother

11 dragged me to church and I went regretfully and

12 reluctantly. And what you find, I think, is that

13 your spiritual foundation is that. It's a

14 foundation that you fall upon periodically in your

15 life. And it's there and it's helpful. And if it's

16 not, you're lacking. Because you're not on all the

17 time.

18 So my spiritual foundation has really grown over

19 the years. I think first, the first blocks were

20 made by my mother who dragged me to church every

21 Sunday. And then when I was divorced, I went back

22 to church and that foundation was there. It was

23 helpful.

24 And then we lost Beth, my oldest daughter, in a

25 car accident, my religious foundations were

0046

1 shaken, big time. You know, how could that happen?

2 How could be allowed to happen? This wonderful

3 child, this person who had so much to give; who

4 was kind and loving. To be killed in a car

5 accident, where is this God, this caring loving

6 God?

7 But I did a lot of reading, a lot of thinking and,

8 frankly, my foundations were strengthened

9 ultimately by that. And when we lost JonBenet, I

10 think the foundation was there and helped

11 immensely and was further strengthened for me.

12 So it's been a spiritual growth. It's exactly

13 that. It's a growing process. You're exposed to

14 people that are ahead of you in that journey and

15 you learn from them, and hopefully help people

16 that are behind you on that journey. It's only on

17 one path; I'm not there yet. But I'm glad to say

18 that I've been growing and that's helped me deal

19 with this a lot.

20 LOU SMIT: You think your religious beliefs

21 are stronger now than what they were before?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. Yes, they are.

23 LOU SMIT: what's in your prayers at night?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I pray that God will bring the

25 killer to the attention of the police. That He

0047

1 will be remorseful and come forward and confess. I

2 always try to be thankful for the blessings I

3 have. I have three wonderful children that are

4 still there and need me and support me. And try to

5 keep that perspective. And praying about it helps.

6 But I asked a good friend of mind, who's much

7 further along in the spiritual journey than I am.

8 I said, (Do I need to keep asking God to find this

9 killer or is one request enough?̃ And he said keep

10 knocking. So I keep knocking.

11 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's pretty emotional.

12 Have you put any thought into what our respective

13 roles should be from this day forward? If you

14 thought about that, what are your thoughts about

15 that?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what we want to participate

17 in is an open, ongoing dialog with the sole

18 objective of finding the killer. And if it means

19 that Patsy and I come out here and rent an

20 apartment so we're nearby, we'll do it. I mean,

21 it's that complete of a focus on our part.

22 What I'm anxious for is that this open dialog

23 starts now as it should have 18 months ago. And

24 that we work through the process that we have to

25 work through to get where we all want to get to.

0048

1 I'm not particularly, even if these guys are great

2 human beings, I'm not anxious to communicate

3 through them or have to consult with them when I

4 try to say something. But I guess I'd just been

5 convinced by them that it was necessary early on.

6 But I hope that's changed. I'm confident it has.

7 So our role is to do whatever we can to assist you

8 in what you're trying to do.

9 LOU SMIT: Mike? I've been talking here,

10 Mike (INAUDIBLE)?

11 MIKE KANE: No. I don't have anything to

12 add,

13 I think, at this time. Down the road, like Lou

14 said, we'll probably want to get into more

15 specifics. But for right now, this is fine.

16 LOU SMIT: You know what? Just a thought

17 popped into my mind, I just wrote a little note.

18 Can you talk about your daughter a bit? Near your

19 nightstand on your bed there was a book on dying?

20 How did that get there and did you read that a lot

21 or what?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm not sure what book was

23 there, but I did a lot of reading after she died.

24 I did a lot of reading about, a lot of books on

25 near death experiences and life after life and Dr.

0049

1 (INAUDIBLE). And, frankly, it was wonderfully

2 helpful. In fact, (INAUDIBLE). At that point in my

3 faith, I guess, I wasn't sure what the big picture

4 was. And, see you try to really figure that out.

5 And I read lots of books, and it was helpful to me

6 to

7 I mean the worst book I think I ever picked up was

8 one that was entitled (When Good-bye is Forever.̃

9 And that's contradictory to what you want to

10 believe. Let's hope it's not forever.

11 LOU SMIT: Is that your Christianity you're

12 talking about?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

14 LOU SMIT: And what do you consider the big

15 picture is?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: The picture is that, as a

17 Christian, I believe that there is life in the

18 flesh, there is life on earth and there is a life

19 after death. And if all there was to life was what

20 we got here on earth, what's the point? And the

21 big picture is realizing that there is more of a

22 point to life than being here and just trying to

23 make some money and drive a nice car, and it's

24 over.

25 So I read a lot. And losing Beth was extremely for

0050

1 me. She was my oldest child. We were extremely

2 close. She raised me, basically. And I mean I was

3 just getting to the point where I didn't think

4 about it a lot. I guess four, four and a half

5 years later.

6 LOU SMIT: John, I know that this part has

7 been kind of you talking and everything and kind

8 of expressing your thoughts and feelings. And I

9 think that the next step that I might take is: I

10 am going to go into certain areas of the

11 investigation. And I'm going to go more

12 specifically into those areas. Now, do you guys

13 want to break or you fell like you might --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: Let's get on.

16 LOU SMIT: We're cranking here. Okay. The

17 first thing I'd like talk to talk about, I'm not

18 going to go way back into your past or anything at

19 this time. And I kind of want to start -- this is

20 shortly before the 26th. I think that the Camera

21 article came out on the 21st. And that's just form

22 recollection from me. And I'd like to ask you a

23 little bit about certain specific things about

24 that.

25 First of all, what do you remember about the

0051

1 Camera article specifically?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember it talked

3 about us crossing the billion dollar sales level.

4 I talked to a reporter. I think they had some

5 quotes in the article from me about (INAUDIBLE).

6 We had a luncheon party at the Boulderado for all

7 employees and that's about all I remember.

8 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who the reporter

9 was?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. But I've got the

11 article so I can find out. But I don't who it was.

12 I just talked to him on the phone.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. It wasn't an in-person

14 interview?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

16 LOU SMIT: it was just over the phone?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

18 LOU SMIT: Did he contact you or did he --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, our public relations

20 girl/lady set up the interview and then handed the

21 phone at the luncheon.

22 LOU SMIT: And who was that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Joanne Velva, now Joanne

24 Andreason. I think she's still there.

25 LOU SMIT: Another thing that I have written

0052

1 down here is: on the 21st and 22nd, actually it

2 was on the 22nd, there was an Amerikids Pageant,

3 and that's what I have listed in my time line. Do

4 you remember JonBenet participating in the pageant

5 just shortly before the Christmas?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was one down in

7 Denver that she participated in. I don't remember

8 that name. I think it's the one she got this medal

9 at, this All Stars. But she was in that. Patsy

10 would remember exactly. It was in December some

11 time.

12 LOU SMIT: Did you go to that pageant?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to the talent part

14 which is always what I wanted to support JonBenet

15 on, was the talent part of it. So I'd actually

16 gone. Her talent performance was supposed to be at

17 like 3 o'clock and I got there at three and it was

18 actually ahead of scheduled because she had

19 already done it and she had one off the whole

20 thing for talent. And I walked in and she took

21 this off her neck and put it on my neck. She knew

22 that was important.

23 I had always said, you know, you have fun, you

24 know, don't worry about winning or losing but, you

25 know, work on your talent. So that was always kind

0053

1 of like (INAUDIBLE).

2 LOU SMIT: Did (INAUDIBLE) go to the

3 pageants, John?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I would go to some of them,

5 and I would go to the talent part when she was

6 doing her performance. But I usually wouldn't go

7 to the whole thing. That was a mother/daughter

8 thing they just had. And that, of course, got

9 blown way out of perspective, I believe. It was,

10 what we thought was a private setting among

11 parents and gave JonBenet a chance to develop some

12 self-confidence and presence, and it was nothing

13 more than something she and Patsy enjoyed doing

14 together.

15 LOU SMIT: Who normally went to her pageants?

16 Was it just Patsy and JonBenet or --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometimes her mother

18 would go. Her sisters would go if they were here.

19 Yeah, just usually Patsy and JonBenet. Because it

20 was usually an all day deal. They'd go in the

21 morning and come back in the afternoon.

22 LOU SMIT: Well, I planned on going a little

23 bit further on in the interview, and that's when

24 we get into the itemized things. Let's kind of go

25 over the pageants a little bit and maybe you can't

0054

1 answer all my questions.

2 But you know there's a lot of times I'm sure

3 JonBenet had certain training and certain people

4 like coached her and certain people that knew her.

5 Photographers that were involved with her. Things

6 of that nature. And, as a detective, that's what I

7 want to find out. And there's a lot of that in the

8 report. Don't get me wrong. The Boulder Police

9 Department really has done a lot of work on that.

10 And I've got a lot of that information.

11 But sometimes there's little pieces of that that

12 you miss. And sometimes you may have some type of

13 an idea or a little thought that maybe somebody

14 was a little off on this. And I'll kind of go into

15 that a little bit later. I'm just more or less

16 trying to generally cover topics at this time.

17 Okay. Now I want to go over -- the next thing I

18 want to cover is: the Christmas party for the kids

19 on the 23rd. now, if you could just in your own

20 words recall what you remember about that first?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. We had this

22 Christmas party, usually a day or two before

23 Christmas primarily for our family, friends and

24 children. And we invite Santa Claus to come and

25 we'd have presents for all the kids. And Santa

0055

1 would give them out and hors d'oeuvres and we'd

2 start early and usually end early. And this year,

3 we decided, or that year of '96, we decided, well

4 we weren't going to do that because it was a lot

5 of effort and Patsy just had her 40th birthday

6 party and we were kind of partied out. We had a

7 big birthday party for Patsy.

8 LOU SMIT: When was her birthday?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, it was a

10 surprise party, it was in early December. He

11 birthday is not until the 29th of December, but we

12 had a surprise birthday party in early December.

13 So we kind of decided not to do the Christmas

14 party. I think we were going to ask a friend or

15 two over. (INAUDIBLE). The Santa Claus which

16 normally came called us and said she had got

17 Charles Kuralt here doing a documentary on me and

18 he's been kind of following me around and I'd like

19 him to come to your house, you know, for your

20 Christmas party because I think it's a nice one

21 and it's one of my favorites.

22 And Patsy kind of threw together a Christmas party

23 quickly because she thought that would be fun for

24 the kids. And Patsy is a born publicist, I guess.

25 She enjoys that kind of thing. And so we invited

0056

1 the regular crowd that always came and we put

2 together the Christmas party.

3 And Santa Claus came and passed out gifts and it

4 was the standard party that we had every year. The

5 kids decorated. I think they decorated a

6 gingerbread house that night. Patsy went down and

7 bought a bunch of these pre-made gingerbread

8 houses and got big buckets of frosting and the

9 kids were in the kitchen decorating them. One

10 thing I always wondered was whether it was really

11 Charles Kuralt.

12 LOU SMIT: Who was the person that said that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Bill Reynolds.

14 LOU SMIT: I've got some pictures and these

15 were taken. There's no numbers on these pictures,

16 and they were taken, I believe right around that

17 Christmas party. And they came out of a camera

18 that was in the house. And you can kind of look at

19 them and then may be point just --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I can do that. You know,

21 unfortunately, you tend to suspect everyone when

22 something like this happens.

23 LOU SMIT: What I'd like you to do, John,

24 is just kind of look at the photograph and tell me

25 who's in it. And if you can remember when this was

0057

1 taken and by who.

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, of course, that's

3 myself and John Fernie. I don't know what he's got

4 in his hand there. Must be some kind a bag. Could

5 be that.

6 LOU SMIT: Is that the one where he's also

7 holding a scarf?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: He's holding a scarf. I guess

9 it looks like -- Patsy gave all the men scarves.

10 That might have been the scarf she gave him, in

11 which case it would have been as Santa passed out

12 the gifts. She had Santa Claus usually read

13 something to the kids. That's probably what's

14 going on there.

15 LOU SMIT: Well the camera, John, is pointing

16 to a picture of Santa Claus kind of in a pensive

17 mood and Mrs. Claus is right behind him.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: We're going to go into Santa Claus

20 a little bit later and all kinds of Santa Clauses.

21 Because there was other Santa Clauses involved in

22 these different parties. In fact, there's even

23 indications that JonBenet may have had a secret

24 Santa Claus. Have you heard that in the past?

25 That's come up in our reports. And I'd like to

0058

1 talk a little bit about Santa Clauses and things

2 of that nature.

3 But what was McReyonlds' health about that time?

4 What was your impression?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he claimed to be very

6 frail and the reason that Mrs. Claus came was

7 because he was so frail. And she struck me as just

8 kind of there. She wasn't really into it or

9 particularly open. And I just accepted the fact

10 that she probably didn't really want to be there,

11 but was there because he was so frail that she had

12 to be there to help him. I think that was the

13 first year she ever came.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you ever meet any of his

15 family?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Patsy met him in the mall,

17 quite frankly. He was walking down the mall in a

18 Santa Claus outfit a few years ago. He was passing

19 out candy to the kids. And Patsy's never met a

20 stranger and struck up a conversation and said,

21 (Will you come to our Christmas party.̃

22 (INAUDIBLE) and got his phone number. That was, I

23 think he'd done maybe three, maybe, parties. We

24 had three years worth.

25 LOU SMIT: Did you talk to him personally?

0059

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Just at parties. Just in

2 passing, you know. I didn't talk to him other than

3 as Santa Claus.

4 LOU SMIT: How did JonBenet react?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was fascinated with

6 him. Cause she loved Christmas. Kids love

7 Christmas. And Patsy was, Christmas was the

8 holiday that Patsy always loved to decorate for.

9 And, you know she had cancer. And I could tell

10 that she was trying to do everything that she

11 could for the kids while she was here. She didn't

12 know -- she was in remission, but she didn't know.

13 And we never talked about it. But she didn't know

14 for sure that she'd be around when they got to be

15 18.

16 So every event like this was always a big deal and

17 Patsy made the most of it. So Christmas

18 particularly was always -- she really tried to

19 make it a kids' thing. And Santa And JonBenet

20 seemed to -- of course JonBenet was fascinated

21 with Santa Claus, and I'm sure she thought it was

22 the real Santa Claus. There was nothing fake about

23 it.

24 She apparently, the year before or two

25 years before, been given a little bottle of angel

0060

1 dust which was from Walt Disney as a gift one

2 night when he was there and I think it was the

3 summer of '96 he sent us a letter saying that he

4 was going in for, I think, it was open heart

5 surgery and, you know, it's a serious operation,

6 and he was taking this little bottle of angel dust

7 that JonBenet gave to him.

8 (UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER): (INAUDIBLE) special?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy might know.

10 So, and we were touched by that. That that meant a

11 lot to him.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know who took these pictures?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I would guess Fleet White,

14 because he was taking pictures. But I don't know

15 for sure.

16 LOU SMIT: Just off the top of your head,

17 do you remember who was there?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The Fernies, John and

19 Barbara Fernie. Priscilla and Fleet White. And, of

20 course, their children; both the Fernie's children

21 I think were there. Priscilla's sister and

22 boyfriend who's this fellow. I don't remember what

23 his name is, from California, was there.

24 I can look at the picture and remember some people

25 who were there. Say Don Paugh, Patsy's father. I

0061

1 think that's Glen Stine, Susan and Glen Stine.

2 There's Priscilla there. I think that's

3 Priscilla's mother. Her father, I think, was

4 there. That's Betty Barnhill, I believe, from

5 across the street.

6 The Barnhills, somebody came looking for the

7 Barnhills later in the evening, knocked on the

8 door. I let him in, he said he was looking for Joe

9 and Betty, eh was worried about them. I said, well

10 they're in the next room and we invited him in and

11 we made him feel at home. I think we learned later

12 that he was a tenant they had living in the

13 basement. But he was there for a while.

14 LOU SMIT: What do you know about him?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. I had no idea they

16 even had a tenant over there. That's the first

17 time I had ever seen him. I thought he was just a

18 guest from out of town.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I did. After the facts.

21 I don't know if I'd recognize it if you even told

22 me.

23 LOU SMIT: Glen Meyer?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Glen Meyer, yes. That's the

25 only time I had ever seen him. At the time I

0062

1 didn't know who he was. I just thought he was a

2 guest.

3 LOU SMIT: But didn't you board your dog over

4 at the Barnhill's?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: We did. They became attached

6 to him. We had them keep him once or twice and

7 they really loved him. They lost their dog and he

8 died and so they really became attached to

9 Jacques, and it was kind of a good setup because

10 they took care of him and the kids could play with

11 him. So it was, for us, it was, as parents, it was

12 kind of neat.

13 LOU SMIT: So did the kids go over there

14 quite often?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was not uncommon for

16 them to go over there or Jacques would come over.

17 He'd stay with us sometimes and he became

18 increasingly their dog because they were just so

19 attached to it. And we thought it was kind of nice

20 because they were older. It was nice companionship

21 for them. It was kind of neat for us because the

22 kids could still have a dog and we didn't have to

23 deal with a dog 24 hours a day.

24 So, more and more as time went on, he stayed more

25 at the Barnhills than he did at our house.

0063

1 LOU SMIT: Were the kids developing a

2 relationship with this fellow, Glen Meyers, do you

3 think or has that ever been discussed?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's never been discussed.

5 I don't know. To my knowledge anyway. As I say, I

6 didn't even know he lived there. They had an

7 apartment in the basement.

8 LOU SMIT: Had you yourself ever been over

9 to the Barnhill's?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We went over for dinner

11 once, I think. We'd stop in and check on them and

12 take him things to eat sometimes. And I think

13 Betty or Joe was sick for a while and Patsy would

14 take them a thing of food and check on them. They

15 were good neighbors.

16 LOU SMIT: See, John, this is the kind of

17 dialog I want. You learn things and quickly. And I

18 don't have to guess. And this is a way that you

19 can really (INAUDIBLE) a lot of information.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Great.

21 LOU SMIT: And I don't know if he's involved

22 in that. Who knows these things. But you gain an

23 insight into relationships.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

25 LOU SMIT: And it's great.

0064

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

2 LOU SMIT: You don't have to figure out all

3 this stuff out here. You're giving us information

4 that you know directly and that's what we wanted.

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely.

6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you go to the

7 Barnhills

8 to pick up a bike?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Christmas Eve. We'd

10 given JonBenet a bike; we got Patsy a bike. We

11 were giving Burke a bike but not that year.

12 Anyway, there was a bike that we put in their

13 basement, and I gone over after the kids went to

14 bed to get it to put it under the tree. And Joe

15 went down to the garage and went down to get it

16 and brought it up. I offered to go get it and he

17 said no, he'd go get it himself. I don't know

18 where it specifically was, whether it was actually

19 in his garage or his basement.

20 LOU SMIT: You know, I've looked at a lot

21 of pictures in regards to this particular case and

22 I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened

23 to the bikes?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were in the garage,

25 I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment

0065

1 outside before we went to the White's; just round

2 the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage.

3 Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in

4 the garage. I don't remember.

5 LOU SMIT: Have you seen it since, Patsy's

6 bike?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We have it.

8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) took it?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We gave, Jonbenet's bike

10 we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't (INAUDIBLE).

11 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) Now you're looking

12 at the bottom photograph, right under Santa on

13 this?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Larry Barber. The Barbers

15 are usually there every year. I don't see Pinky.

16 She took pictures, she was (INAUDIBLE). The

17 Stines, it's Barbara Fernie's mother. That's

18 Priscilla's father. That's Benny Barnhill, that's

19 Priscilla's mother. I don't know who those two

20 people are. Oh, wait a minute.

21 LOU SMIT: What we're looking at to on the

22 photographs, just for the camera: that's a Santa

23 Claus picture. That's the picture with Mr. Ramsey

24 and John Fernie with the scarf. And he was just

25 naming the people on this bottom photograph and so

0066

1 we correlate some way with the camera later, we

2 can do that.

3 It's just that there's no numbers on these

4 pictures. They were in that folder and I didn't

5 have a number associated with them. I pulled them

6 --

7 BRYAN MORGAN: What were the two that you

8 did?

9 LOU SMIT: Any time you have any questions

10 to

11 him, I have no objection if you interrupt because

12 I know that you want to look into this stuff too.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that's Priscilla's

14 -- yeah, one is Priscilla's relatives. The husband

15 of Priscilla's -- I think it's Priscilla's sister,

16 her sister's daughter. Patsy would remember the

17 names probably.

18 LOU SMIT: Were they just visiting at the

19 time?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: They were there for Christmas.

21 They stayed at the Whites. This is just kids doing

22 their gingerbread house decorations.

23 LOU SMIT: Just a quick question while you're

24 on that photograph, and let's show it for the

25 camera here. This shows Patsy and then the

0067

1 children making gingerbread houses. I notice in

2 the report that for the past years you had always

3 bought gingerbread houses. And it seems like they

4 were always a part of your Christmas festivities?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had one or two

6 made one year. She did an open house for the

7 Historical Society. We were always part of the

8 historical homes tour where they raise money for

9 the Boulder Historical Society, and our house --

10 we opened our house for that. And she had this

11 really elaborate gingerbread house made by bob

12 Wallace, who did some handy work for her. And that

13 sat on our kitchen that year. I think we actually

14 (INAUDIBLE) to use.

15 But then we put it in a plastic bag, and it was

16 real elaborate. And so I think it got reused a

17 year or two before it finally gave up. But I think

18 this is the first year she had had the kids

19 decorate gingerbread houses. And so they were

20 there, but I think it was.

21 LOU SMIT: Sometimes I'm going to be very

22 spontaneous. Bob Wallace, what kind of work did he

23 do for you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the first time he

25 worked for us he cleaned all the windows. We had

0068

1 just finished our addition the third floor.

2 LOU SMIT: When would that have been?

3 JOHN RAMSEY: '94 maybe; 1994 or '93,'94,

4 somewhere in that timeframe. He was kind of our

5 handyman. Patsy had him help her decorate for

6 Christmas several years. I don't know if he made

7 the gingerbread house or he had one of his friends

8 make it. I assumed he had the house made.

9 He did occasional handyman work, but mostly I

10 think it was decorating around Christmas time.

11 Because Patsy always decorated the house.

12 LOU SMIT: In '96 did he do that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember specifically

14 if he did. Probably not. You see, we were leaving

15 town the next morning after Christmas. So I don't

16 recall. We weren't going to have a Christmas

17 party, so I don't think Patsy did a whole lot of

18 decorating. So I don't recall if he did.

19 (INAUDIBLE)

20 LOU SMIT: Did he have a friend that would

21 come with him occasionally?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE)

23 LOU SMIT: And I've never been able to

24 locate

25 that friend's name.

0069

1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that he was the guy

2 that

3 did the gingerbread house. I don't know his name.

4 I don't think I ever did know his name.

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE). Robert

6 or Rubio?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't ring a bell. I don't

8 know if I ever knew his name. Or if I did, I don't

9 quite remember.

10 LOU SMIT: There's a chance that Patsy might.

11 (INAUDIBLE). Maybe tomorrow or whenever we get

12 together again, you can kind of learn that. It

13 just seems to me and, again, I've read so much in

14 this case that sometimes I'm full of information.

15 But it seems to me like I don't know what his

16 sexual proclivity was. But it seemed to me like he

17 was --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were both gay.

19 LOU SMIT: That's what I was trying to get

20 at.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: And that's why I was wondering

23 if he had a gay friend.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was that they

25 were both gay.

0070

1 LOU SMIT: Would he give, this fellow, Bob

2 Wallace, give Patsy advice at certain advice at

3 certain times, or did they did discuss things? Do

4 you know that?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

6 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he had a key to

7 the house?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I don't know

9 if he did. I doubt he did. I don't think that he

10 did. But Patsy, again, would know better than I

11 would.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know where he came from?

13 I mean, how did she meet this guy?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's a good question. I don't

15 recall. I think he was from Denver. I don't know

16 how she ran across him.

17 LOU SMIT: Again, this is the kind of

18 question that I like to sit down and ask you. I'm

19 just a real brief thing. Sometimes we don't know

20 the answer, but sometimes the answers come pretty

21 flowing. And it does jiggle the thought process

22 about it and start thinking. Again, pointing

23 fingers at somebody, I don't do that. But it's

24 nice to have a lead.

25 And this is how you develop the lead; the thing

0071

1 has to be developed. And whether or not it's the

2 right guy or not (INAUDIBLE).

3 JOHN RAMSEY: I know.

4 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything on that,

5 Mike? Again, Mike, if I'm going over things that

6 you want to interject at all. Please do, because I

7 know you have been just reading (INAUDIBLE)

8 there than I am. So anyway I touched on that just

9 because his name did come up.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

11 MIKE KANE: Would it be possible (INAUDIBLE)

12 real quickly.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One more thing you

14 might want to talk about -- David, why don't you

15 ask the question because you're aware of this

16 (INAUDIBLE). Cause he work on the windows. Was

17 that your point?

18 DAVID WILLIAMS: Well, yes. My point was: he

19 cleaned all the windows back in '93, '94. There

20 were screens on them at that time. See that's

21 where we (INAUDIBLE) the screens were already off.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we

23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the

24 windows after the paint was done.

25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?

0072

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before

2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,

3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on

4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well

5 she thought he was --

6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason

8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into

9 the house just to finish up some last little

10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy

11 told him please close the windows when you leave.

12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and

13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the

14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded

15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home

16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and

17 I said, (What in the world is that.̃ (INAUDIBLE).

18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back

19 together in two weeks.

20 BRYAN MORGAN: Well take a break. It's about

21 a quarter till eleven.

22 (BREAK TAKEN)

23 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) how JonBenet was exposed

24 during that particular time of her exposure?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: The biggest exposure which, say

0073

1 in retrospect, would be how stupid could we have

2 been. But when she was in a children's parade in

3 Boulder, I think it was December 6th or early

4 December. And the kids had done it before.

5 Actually they did it the year before as well. It's

6 a neat children's parade. All the kids, and kids

7 love to be in parades, and it just seemed like a

8 fun thing for the kids to do. There's people

9 lining the streets up and down.

10 LOU SMIT: Were you there for that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We were not; we were out of

12 town. And Patsy's mother was there taking care of

13 the kids, and they had prearranged for JonBenet to

14 go with Pam Archuleta who was, I think at the

15 time, (INAUDIBLE) United Way. So she drove her

16 little red convertible and JonBenet and that other

17 little girl sat up on the back.

18 LOU SMIT: Who was the other girl?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would know. I don't

20 know her name. But she was one of the little

21 pageant girls from Denver, I think. A dark haired

22 girl. I have a picture of that.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Which I can get for you.

25 LOU SMIT: I think I'd like a copy of that,

0074

1 if I could.

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And the car might have

3 had -- I think Patsy would normally put her name

4 on the side of the car with a little magnetic-like

5 pageant clothing. But basically I think it was

6 like a red Christmassy velvet dress.

7 LOU SMIT: And was that right downtown? Where

8 was that at exactly?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it goes down, what is it

10 Walnut, I think. It goes down to Walnut and then

11 it kinds lines around and comes back. It's in the

12 early evening.

13 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) I've got my copy so,

14 like I said --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, what concerned me

16 afterwards as we started looking into who could

17 have possibly done this is a lot of, as I said

18 earlier, there's a lot of good people and there's

19 a lot freaks out there, and we were just kind of

20 ignorant of that. And she was certainly exposed,

21 occasionally exposed to the freaks.

22 LOU SMIT: And I'm sure that still goes on

23 today. (INAUDIBLE) so you never know (INAUDIBLE).

24 Okay. Let's go back then to Christmas Eve. And you

25 did mention then -- Oh, I want to ask one more

0075

1 thing.

2 Pasta Jay's. You went there after what, after

3 church?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: After church.

5 LOU SMIT: And who went there?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I and Burke and

7 JonBenet.

8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you know Pasta Jay real

9 well?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

11 LOU SMIT: Because you're business partners

12 with him?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. A thought that crossed my

15 mind, and I don't know if -- you used to go there

16 quite a bit?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Lots, yeah.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. How often would you say you

19 went there?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd go there at least twice

21 a week, probably.

22 LOU SMIT: And how often would your family go?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, at least once a week. At least.

24 LOU SMIT: Just as an investigative thought, did

25 Pasta Jay have anybody working for him that may

0076

1 trigger something in your mind? I know he has a

2 lot of people working for him.

3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

4 LOU SMIT: And he would be the one probably

5 to answer that.

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I didn't really have any

7 involvement in the day-to-day business. So I only

8 knew the people that were out in front: the

9 waitresses and so forth.

10 LOU SMIT: You see, David, my thought process

11 is maybe they met some kook cook or something or

12 somebody that may have quite shortly after or

13 exhibited a strange behavior. I don't know. I

14 think some place where JonBenet would have been

15 out with her family, sort of.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there all the time.

17 And really, she grew up at Pasta Jay's.

18 (INAUDIBLE). The waitresses kind of adopted her as

19 sort of a surrogate child.

20 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) if Pasta Jay or anyone

21 else that we would like to talk to if we have

22 difficulties, please let us know.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

24 LOU SMIT: We can do everything we can to

25 get anyone you want over. If we have any degree or

0077

1 sort of influence or friendship to talk to.

2 Because a lot of times just going there,

3 discussing the thing. Because I would like to talk

4 to Pasta Jay. And we can do anything to facilitate

5 that. I can do it, John can do it, we will do it.

6 You see, this is one thing that's going to come up

7 in this investigation too, is that somehow John

8 Ramsey or someone else influences other people not

9 to talk to the police. And what's your opinion on

10 that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know, we certainly

12 influenced enough talking to the media. I don't

13 know if we ever, I have never, I just don't

14 recollect. I don't think I've ever said, (Don't

15 talk to the police.̃

16 LOU SMIT: I will absolutely guarantee that

17 we have not, at all, and I know the people I'm

18 working with. I know the investigators and

19 lawyers, I've known them for 20 years, and I'll

20 guarantee that we had discouraged no one. I do

21 believe there are a lot of people who consider

22 themselves of John Ramsey who then put off

23 (INAUDIBLE) by the Boulder Police Department

24 almost as we have and I'm quite sure, it would be

25 my guess, that some may have been less than of

0078

1 forthcoming.

2 I have asked Peter Hofstrom for months if he would

3 give me a list of people that you all even talked

4 to. That you, for some reason, have been unable

5 to, if there was anything we can do with any of

6 those, we would. And I don't understand this.

7 Okay. Because that was one of the concerns with

8 the grand jury is that people won't talk so. I'm

9 sure that was a concern of Mike here. How do you

10 get people to speak to you, to talk to you. You

11 just can't go down there an say we want to talk to

12 you and --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we can. Because,

14 as I said, we are coming into this as this is

15 finally an objective investigation led by people

16 who have a lot of experience in homicides. And if

17 we could help, we will. I think Bryan said all

18 right.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay. I've covered those people.

20 (INAUDIBLE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to backup one step with

22 Pasta Jay. The only one thing I noticed that night

23 that, when we were (INAUDIBLE) there was this very

24 striking couple there with their daughter who just

25 stood out in my mind. And I noticed her in church

0079

1 and he had very dark hair and she was very

2 attractive. And I had never seen them in church.

3 And they look kind of like they were from East.

4 They were well cared for. They were dressed up.

5 And they were in Pasta Jay's.

6 LOU SMIT: Also.

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Also. And they kind of sat

8 near us in the same room and then they moved to a

9 table in the other room. And I thought, (Hmmmm.̃

10 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time you thought

11 of that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I thought about it before.

13 What was that, who was it? I mean it was kind of

14 a, (Oh, I saw those people in church and it's a

15 coincidence that they are in Pasta Jay's.̃ And

16 later I thought, who were those people.

17 LOU SMIT: Were they in a farther row or did

18 anybody know them? Would that be in a signed

19 register?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. (INAUDIBLE) it's just

21 a piece of data.

22 LOU SMIT: And you ever seen them since?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

24 LOU SMIT: So then Christmas Eve was at Pasta

25 Jay's and then what happened? Just kind of take

0080

1 (INAUDIBLE)?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. I remember dropping

3 Patsy off; I couldn't find a parking place right

4 away. So I parked and came around and they already

5 had a table in the front room. I came in, we had

6 dinner, the kids colored.

7 I think we drove up to -- after we left there I

8 think we drove to the Star, might have driven a

9 little bit to look at the lights. JonBenet was

10 miffed because we wouldn't let her walk up to the

11 star because she had on her church dress and

12 (INAUDIBLE) can't walk up there.

13 LOU SMIT: Why did she have on her church

14 dress (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: It was pretty good. She looked

16 beautiful in church. It was a purple dress. And

17 they wanted to get out of the car, I guess. After

18 we looked at everything, we turned around and came

19 home. The kids went to bed.

20 LOU SMIT: At different times. Sometimes

21 there are different times.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember exactly.

23 But it was dark, I remember that. Because the

24 lights were on and I remember the starlight. So if

25 we went to five o'clock church, that would have

0081

1 been over at six or so. Then we went to dinner and

2 (INAUDIBLE) somewhere around there.

3 I don't specifically remember the kids going to

4 bed, but I'm sure they went to bed fairly early

5 because they wanted to get up at the crack of

6 dawn. You know, the normal routine was (INAUDIBLE)

7 was as soon as we thought the kids were asleep we

8 got Christmas organized.

9 LOU SMIT: And how would you do that? What

10 would you do to organize Christmas?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we'd get up, haul the

12 presents and put them under the tree. And a lot of

13 the things were not wrapped so the kids had the

14 surprise when they came down. And we put those out

15 and we got the bike.

16 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep these bikes?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were usually in the basement.

18 That was Patsy's department. But I think she kept

19 them in that cellar room. We usually kept all of

20 Christmas stuff in there. Our Christmas trees and

21 lights and that stuff, the trim.

22 LOU SMIT: So you think that somebody would

23 have gone down to get those? Did you go down

24 there?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.

0082

1 I mean --

2 LOU SMIT: Kind of think about that because

3 that's kind of important. Who was in the basement

4 close to the time of Christmas.

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly we both would

6 have been because Patsy did most of her wrapping

7 down there. And that's where all the present stuff

8 was stored. So in the process of getting ready for

9 Christmas that would certainly have been down

10 there and been in there.

11 The only thing I remember is going over to Joe's

12 and getting the bike out of his garage. And then

13 after Patsy went upstairs, I had her bike in our

14 garage and I got that out and put it by the tree.

15 And then I went upstairs.

16 LOU SMIT: So both bikes then were at the

17 tree. You just took the one from Joe Barnhill and

18 put it by the tree?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: And brought Patsy's in from

20 the garage.

21 LOU SMIT: This may not be exactly the

22 time to interject, but did you get a painting for

23 Christmas?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that's right.

25 LOU SMIT: Tell me about that.

0083

1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a painting of some

2 boats at anchor that Patsy had seen in, I think, a

3 local art store. It was done by a local Boulder

4 artist. And she had got me that for Christmas

5 which were going to take it up to our cottage up

6 in Michigan. It was behind the couch, I think.

7 LOU SMIT: Yeah. I was just wondering

8 where that would have been kept that evening.

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's where it was

10 the next morning. I don't know how long it had

11 been there.

12 LOU SMIT: But it's small enough to hide

13 behind the couch (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been behind --

15 probably about that high and not quite as wide as

16 that wall. So it was fairly large. And I recall

17 that's where she had it; behind the couch. And

18 then she got that out, that was when Christmas was

19 all over.

20 LOU SMIT: It was wrapped?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The picture was wrapped.

22 LOU SMIT: I was just wondering, like when you

23 brought the bikes back in and Patsy was already in

24 bed and then --

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

0084

1 LOU SMIT: -- I don't know if you would

2 have

3 seen something like that?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't see it. So I knew

5 it must have been there by the couch. That's my

6 assumption.

7 LOU SMIT: So you go to bed and you know

8 the routine? (INAUDIBLE).

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The kids, of course,

10 were up early. I remember both of them running up

11 to our bed early in the morning to get us up to go

12 downstairs.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what time?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd be guessing. It could

15 have been 5:30, it could have been 6:30. It was

16 certainly early. Probably before daylight. I don't

17 remember exactly, but they were always -- Burke

18 came in one time at midnight to get us up one

19 Christmas, it was time to get up and open

20 presents. I looked at the clock, it was midnight.

21 LOU SMIT: That was not this Christmas?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think it was, if I

23 recall. And then I think I had them stay in the

24 bedroom until I went downstairs and turned on the

25 Christmas lights. It's always been kind of fun to

0085

1 make them wait a little bit.

2 LOU SMIT: Real quickly, where did JonBenet

3 sleep that previous night? And where did Burke

4 sleep on Christmas eve?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think they slept in

6 their own bedrooms. I don't specifically remember

7 that. But. Anyway, they come down and we had

8 Christmas and we usually have a breakfast, which

9 we did I think that day afterwards.

10 LOU SMIT: What did you have for breakfast?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been pancakes.

12 Which is usually what we would eat. We would have

13 a special breakfast, but I don't remember exactly.

14 But we usually had a big breakfast.

15 LOU SMIT: Anything else that goes along

16 with the pancakes, or anything that you can think

17 of? I know I'm trying to get specific.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember. I mean,

19 it probably been like bacon and probably hash and

20 that kind of things. But I don't remember for

21 sure. But that's typically what we would have had

22 for breakfast. Coffee, juice, orange juice. But

23 that took up most of the morning, I guess. By the

24 time we finished --

25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you

0086

1 were opening presents?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a

3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and

4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt

5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.

6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which

7 we wore --

8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Not like now or?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I'm sure we had on our

12 pajamas and robes.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember kind of what

14 the kids got? What she got?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet got a bike.

16 I think Burke got a bike too. It seems like we had

17 three bikes there. JonBenet, I think she got a

18 little doll that was one of these look-a-like

19 dolls that was supposed to look like her. I

20 remember her looking at it and saying, this

21 doesn't look like me.

22 LOU SMIT: Was that made specially in

23 a certain spot?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Supposedly, I guess. Yeah.

25 That's a good question. Patsy would know. She got

0087

1 it. It's one of these -- it's supposed to be a

2 doll that's made to look like the child.

3 LOU SMIT: So it's a specially made item

4 then from a certain kind of store.

5 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, yeah. Patsy,

6 I'm sure, would know specifically where it came

7 from, the details on that. But I seemed to

8 remember her holding it up saying this doesn't

9 look like me. And she didn't.

10 LOU SMIT: And she held it up for you?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: She did.

12 LOU SMIT: And can you think of anything else?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: They always get so much stuff. I

14 guess I don't remember. It's always kind of a

15 little bit overloaded with so many things. I

16 remember she did a little (INAUDIBLE) that night

17 and a little jewelry maker wrapped up in little

18 strips of paper and little beads. I remember

19 specifically playing that with her that evening,

20 Christmas day evening.

21 LOU SMIT: Now let's talk about Christmas day

22 a little bit more. Now, you were going to be

23 leaving for Charlevoix.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

25 LOU SMIT: And tell us a little bit about

0088

1 the arrangements you were making then?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the plan was to leave

3 the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the

4 time that was on charter through a charter company

5 run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend;

6 became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that

7 morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We

8 were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and

9 my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta.

10 From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick

11 them up and then go on to Charlevoix.

12 And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a

13 difficult place to get to with airlines. And we

14 were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly

15 literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that

16 would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis

17 and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive

18 tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was

19 the plan.

20 They we were going to stay there for I think it

21 was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was.

22 (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple

23 days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then

24 I think the next morning on Saturday, we were

25 going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with

0089

1 just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me. And that

2 was a package deal. We had tickets on TWA and that

3 was all kind of pretty pre-laid out for us.

4 So that was the plan. I had gone out to the

5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with

6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it

7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in

8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be

9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.

10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you

11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have

13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for

14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had

15 a few little extra presents for Burke and Jo