Doc Brawler Profile Joined November 2011 United States 260 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-30 12:40:44 #1

This post is meant to start a new positive discussion on the status of mech vs toss HOTS style! nonbelievers there is another thread for you called "mech tvp still not viable" SO please only comment if you want to help players mech and or are looking for help on how to do it!



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375338



This started as a response to that post btw...



First off, I truly think that mech IS viable in WOL and HOTS. See day9's video on mech vs toss:



+ Show Spoiler +



Yes, this video is a year old, but still its main points are valid.

Also just because it is "viable" does not mean it is easy or even good, or should be attempted by anyone but the insane... It takes a lot of patience and a much different style than bio, see Lyyna's mech vs toss guide:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003

This player uses ghosts, tanks, hellions, thors, BC, banshees, vikes and ravens, ALTERING the composition based on needs... It can all be afforded if u keep your units alive and choose wisely.



So why don't the pros use it? First off they do, just very rarely. Also remember when MVP was one of the only Koreans going mech vs zerg and how often he lost? New styles take time to perfect and mech will always be vulnerable to early harassment and technical attacks (roach drops)



OK now to HOTS:

MSC and oracles really limit your openings, but u can punish a MSC attack with extremely fast hellion drop and trade probes for scvs (http://www.twitch.tv/ogssupernova) or open rine tank... It’s still the beta! new openings will emerge…



Compared to WOL, mech did get stronger against toss, battle hellions > hellions in fights, and mobile detection still very snipable by vikes (MSC and observer).



One of the problems with TvP in general, is that they (toss) can dictate the unit composition. Ex. bio vs toss

they go zelot heavy u need rines and medevacs,

they go colo u need vikes

they go HT u need ghosts

they go DT u need scans (raven?)



Mech is just more intense.

Ex, if they go MASS archon and or imortal, 5-7 ghosts WILL melt their expensive army immediately, if they go MASS chargelots, hellions and any air to ground will do great against them.



Composition is crucial, and this means scouting early and often. Hellions, vikes, medevac boost and SCAN (duh) all make for great scouts. Always get a bunch of orbitals!

Also tanks are NOT unreasonably expensive in money or supply... 3-4 tanks at a time plus upgrades and vikes is common on 3.5 bases in a mech vs zerg game. Compare their cost to how effective tanks are in a defensive position-- they ARE viable. Maybe not OP or an instant win, or even good aggressively, but they are viable and will keep u alive.



What about SKY TOSS??

Toss sky got a HUGE buff in HOTS. Terran AA got decent buffs if you look carefully. Thor's new high impact payload does decent against heavy sky units and widow mines offer huge AA spalsh, not to mention they need to be manually targeted because of priority targeting (imo their biggest asset).



What about the raven? I don't think anyone, including Blizz, knows where this fits in. The WOL raven is awesome—free HS makes ravens a bit more useful, HOTS HS missile is an awkward yamato, but then again, its still beta...



Still not convinced any mech army can beat any toss army? Try it yourself instead of just theory crafting! get a friend and make the perfect unit compositions... here is my WOL ex



2 ravens

8 ghosts

12 tanks

10 hellions (opt for harras)

4 thors (opt for preference)

5 BC (if it goes late game get as many as u can mid game 1 or 2 will do)

12 vikes

This is ONLY 162 supply! leaving 38 for scvs (which is way to high for lategame terran, MULE OP lol)



Now let Toss get 3-3-3 upgrades, archons colo, imortals, chargelots, high templar, a few carriers or whatever sky toss they want. U will be surprised at how well this battle will go for terran.



NOTE: Composition needs to be tweaked to enemy army composition. This applies to both toss and terran so don't cry about it. Ex Banshee forces AA, hellion run-bys force expensive static defense or defensive army placement.



TIP: As you go ultra late game, replace everything with BC and ghosts and ravens, as they are supply efficient (6,2 and 2 respectively!)



How do I get there?

Easily the hardest and most important part. Again, see the guides posted earlier. Also I have a few suggestions:



Wall-ins are your friend! Toss will often try to roll over mech as it is very fragile in mid/early game. Turtling makes a huge difference. I use PF, ebay wall offs, (cheap, build fast and allow high sec and building armor upgrades) rax to clog up chokes and missile turrets for harras defense.



BTW what about harras? While you are turtling how can u deal with toss harass, their main army, and not let toss mass expand?

Vikes and hellions SHUT DOWN warp prism harass.

Hellion/widowmine run-bys and drops decimate lightly protected mineral lines.

What if toss invested in 13 cannons on each of their 5 expos?!!!

Ok this is a big investment and usually indicates a very passive game on the toss part. A very powerful and common response to mech. If u sense this coming, you should already have one ghost academy, get 5 more! Multi-pronged nuke haras is soooo good against static defense and toss in general. Plus, ghosts only cost 2 supply, so with 6 ghosts u can attack two (or 6) expos at once and KILL one (or damage most) for sure (unless toss is gosu and defends all bases at once with detection...)



My plea to those who still do not believe: have a tiny bit of faith in Blizzard and experiment (even if you loose trying) instead of giving up. Also keep working together! On this thread do NOT SAY mech not viable! This thread is not for you. Instead say, "I have trouble with x,y and z" or hey "so and so really works for me"



Shout out to HTOmario, a great (GM) meching terran who never stops trying to innovate! check out his stream and vods for ideas!

http://www.twitch.tv/htomario

Before you start reading, this post is long. So skip to the plea at the bottom if u don't have time to read.This post is meant to start a newon the status of mech vs toss HOTS style! nonbelievers there is another thread for you called "mech tvp still not viable" SO please only comment if you want to help players mech and or are looking for help on how to do it!This started as a response to that post btw...First off, I truly think that mech IS viable in WOL and HOTS. See day9's video on mech vs toss:Yes, this video is a year old, but still its main points are valid.Also just because it is "viable" does not mean it is easy or even good, or should be attempted by anyone but the insane... It takes a lot of patience and a much different style than bio, see Lyyna's mech vs toss guide:This player uses ghosts, tanks, hellions, thors, BC, banshees, vikes and ravens, ALTERING the composition based on needs... It can all be afforded if u keep your units alive and choose wisely.So why don't the pros use it? First off they do, just very rarely. Also remember when MVP was one of the only Koreans going mech vs zerg and how often he lost? New styles take time to perfect and mech will always be vulnerable to early harassment and technical attacks (roach drops)MSC and oracles really limit your openings, but u can punish a MSC attack with extremely fast hellion drop and trade probes for scvs (http://www.twitch.tv/ogssupernova) or open rine tank... It’s still the beta! new openings will emerge…Compared to WOL, mech did get stronger against toss, battle hellions > hellions in fights, and mobile detection still very snipable by vikes (MSC and observer).One of the problems with TvP in general, is that they (toss) can dictate the unit composition. Ex. bio vs tossthey go zelot heavy u need rines and medevacs,they go colo u need vikesthey go HT u need ghoststhey go DT u need scans (raven?)Mech is just more intense.Ex, if they go MASS archon and or imortal, 5-7 ghosts WILL melt their expensive army immediately, if they go MASS chargelots, hellions and any air to ground will do great against them.Composition is crucial, and this means scouting early and often. Hellions, vikes, medevac boost and SCAN (duh) all make for great scouts. Always get a bunch of orbitals!Also tanks are NOT unreasonably expensive in money or supply... 3-4 tanks at a time plus upgrades and vikes is common on 3.5 bases in a mech vs zerg game. Compare their cost to how effective tanks are in a defensive position-- they ARE viable. Maybe not OP or an instant win, or even good aggressively, but they are viable and will keep u alive.Toss sky got a HUGE buff in HOTS. Terran AA got decent buffs if you look carefully. Thor's new high impact payload does decent against heavy sky units and widow mines offer huge AA spalsh, not to mention they need to be manually targeted because of priority targeting (imo their biggest asset).What about the raven? I don't think anyone, including Blizz, knows where this fits in. The WOL raven is awesome—free HS makes ravens a bit more useful, HOTS HS missile is an awkward yamato, but then again, its still beta...Still not convinced any mech army can beat any toss army? Try it yourself instead of just theory crafting! get a friend and make the perfect unit compositions... here is my WOL ex2 ravens8 ghosts12 tanks10 hellions (opt for harras)4 thors (opt for preference)5 BC (if it goes late game get as many as u can mid game 1 or 2 will do)12 vikesThis is ONLY 162 supply! leaving 38 for scvs (which is way to high for lategame terran, MULE OP lol)Now let Toss get 3-3-3 upgrades, archons colo, imortals, chargelots, high templar, a few carriers or whatever sky toss they want. U will be surprised at how well this battle will go for terran.NOTE: Composition needs to be tweaked to enemy army composition. This applies to both toss and terran so don't cry about it. Ex Banshee forces AA, hellion run-bys force expensive static defense or defensive army placement.TIP: As you go ultra late game, replace everything with BC and ghosts and ravens, as they are supply efficient (6,2 and 2 respectively!)Easily the hardest and most important part. Again, see the guides posted earlier. Also I have a few suggestions:Wall-ins are your friend! Toss will often try to roll over mech as it is very fragile in mid/early game. Turtling makes a huge difference. I use PF, ebay wall offs, (cheap, build fast and allow high sec and building armor upgrades) rax to clog up chokes and missile turrets for harras defense.BTW what about harras? While you are turtling how can u deal with toss harass, their main army, and not let toss mass expand?Vikes and hellions SHUT DOWN warp prism harass.Hellion/widowmine run-bys and drops decimatemineral lines.What if toss invested in 13 cannons on each of their 5 expos?!!!Ok this is a big investment and usually indicates a very passive game on the toss part. A very powerful and common response to mech. If u sense this coming, you should already have one ghost academy, get 5 more! Multi-pronged nuke haras is soooo good against static defense and toss in general. Plus, ghosts only cost 2 supply, so with 6 ghosts u can attack two (or 6) expos at once and KILL one (or damage most) for sure (unless toss is gosu and defends all bases at once with detection...)My plea to those who still do not believe: have a tiny bit of faith in Blizzard and experiment (even if you loose trying) instead of giving up. Also keep working together! On this thread do NOT SAY mech not viable! This thread is not for you. Instead say, "I have trouble with x,y and z" or hey "so and so really works for me"Shout out to HTOmario, a great (GM) meching terran who never stops trying to innovate! check out his stream and vods for ideas! I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds

Lyyna Profile Joined June 2011 France 765 Posts #2 Great post ! i definitely support it, and i agree with what you said http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/459600-how-to-mech-them-cry-lyynas-mech-in-hots - The 2014 Mech guide ! http://www.twitch.tv/lyyna for stream and contact infos

Hider Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Denmark 8554 Posts #3 void raids? Innovation was a better player in 2013 than Byun in 2016.

Geefking Profile Joined June 2011 Australia 41 Posts #4 On December 30 2012 11:02 Hider wrote:

void raids?



rines rines Only Sheep Need A Sheppard "Voltaire"

Doc Brawler Profile Joined November 2011 United States 260 Posts #5 What about void rays? they fit in the discussion so discuss!

Great all-around air unit, tend to stack, I'm not sure if Thors should use highimpact payload for damage or explosive payload for splash, or just use widowmines!

What do you guys think? I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds

Doc Brawler Profile Joined November 2011 United States 260 Posts #6 On December 30 2012 11:09 Geefking wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 30 2012 11:02 Hider wrote:

void raids?



rines rines



this is a mech thread. I know space marines are great for early game defense, but late game un-upgraded rines need to get sacked this is a mech thread. I know space marines are great for early game defense, but late game un-upgraded rines need to get sacked I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds

cozzE Profile Joined September 2010 Australia 348 Posts #7 Any build can work in any given game however, against protoss that can react accordingly, mech is rather toothless compared to most general purpose protoss late-game compositions (that offer more mobility to boot also).

memcpy Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 459 Posts #8 Just did some quick unit testing.



Thors lose to void rays with prismatic alignment until around 8 vs 8 where the Thors are able to win with splash damage. You do not want to use high impact payload against them as the only way to trade efficiently is using splash damage in high number fights.



You could argue that the protoss player will split their void rays but we all know that will never happen because protoss will be focused on using their spells.



Conclusion: Void Rays soft counter Thors in small numbers. I don't think it's worth saying that they completely shut down mech. Unbiased zerg player here ^^



Loccstana Profile Blog Joined November 2012 United States 833 Posts #9 Mech will always be "viable" in the gold, platinum, diamond leagues. That does mean it will be viable at the highest levels of play. [url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]

Doko Profile Joined May 2010 Argentina 1736 Posts #10 On December 30 2012 11:36 memcpy wrote:

Just did some quick unit testing.



Thors lose to void rays with prismatic alignment until around 8 vs 8 where the Thors are able to win with splash damage. You do not want to use high impact payload against them as the only way to trade efficiently is using splash damage in high number fights.



You could argue that the protoss player will split their void rays but we all know that will never happen because protoss will be focused on using their spells.



Conclusion: Void Rays soft counter Thors in small numbers. I don't think it's worth saying that they completely shut down mech. Unbiased zerg player here ^^





Can't you just keep the thors with a small group of widow mines and just burrow them when something that tanks can't hit gets in range?

You can always bring scvs along and repair thors if needed...

Can't you just keep the thors with a small group of widow mines and just burrow them when something that tanks can't hit gets in range?You can always bring scvs along and repair thors if needed...

ZjiublingZ Profile Joined September 2011 United Arab Emirates 439 Posts #11 I appreciate what you're doing here OP, and I agree with the sentiment that it's more constructive to have a positive discussion proving how to make Mech work, instead of talking about all the weaknesses of it. Saying generalities like "Use Ghosts against Immortals and Archons!", "Tanks are good on defense", or "Use wall-ins!" is a bit annoying. We're past that with MechvsProtoss development. But hopefully some good can come of this thread, I guess we do need one thread where the few pretty good players like Lyyna and HTOMario (if he is still trying Mech vs P, saw him going Bio a few days ago...) can perhaps post their progress or something. I still MechvsP, though I have nothing useful to add, nothing I've found is solid at all.



Hopefully we can get to some real specifics, instead of more of the generalities you have stated and we hear all the time. Some actual replays, some actual openings that are SOLID, something constructive.

memcpy Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 459 Posts #12 Widow Mines do kill Void Rays cost effectively. 8 Widow Mines (600/200) can beat 4 Void Rays (1025/675) in a single volley with typical unit clumping. I'm slightly concerned about their effectiveness in an actual battle though. I can see Chargelots or other units running in before the Void Rays and triggering the Widow Mines. Void Rays also outrange Widow Mines so you would have to make sure the Thors are positioned behind the Widow Mines in a major engagement. It definitely seems like it might be worth making a few with your reactored Barracks if Protoss does try to switch into air and you have the extra gas.

ledarsi Profile Joined September 2010 United States 475 Posts #13 I don't intend to be overly critical, but the majority of the OP boils down to "it is possible to win with mech if you massively outplay your opponent" and that even though none of the tools really do the jobs they need to, "HOTS is still in beta." And that consequently it may work in the future, because magically "new openings will emerge" or some significant unit will get buffed or changed.



I understand where you're coming from with wanting to start a positive discussion about how mech might be viable. For most of WoL I was playing with the mindset of wanting mech to work, when it simply does not. Eventually you just have to accept reality that anything you can do with mech, you can do more efficiently and more easily with bio. Being "positive" about it is to willfully delude yourself. Wanting it to be so, and being positive about it, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is not a good idea. "First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."

Doc Brawler Profile Joined November 2011 United States 260 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-30 04:22:25 #14 I disagree that bio can do better anything that mech can do. We have all seen the power of 3-3 protoss army against a 3-3 bio army. Blizz itself admits that bio late game is at a disadvantage against protoss. But we rarely see (pro-games) a 3-3 mech army, take on a protoss death ball. Those of us who do mech vs toss, know how strong a balanced mech army is.



Mech gives Terran a chance to straight up fight a late game Protoss death ball.

I don't know how much more specific you can get than "emp ghosts and arcons"... if u see arcons, get ghosts, its a hard counter kind of thing, like vikings and colo. I think it takes 3 emps to clear an arcon shield, (someone verify) effectively killing an arcon in an extremely efficient fashion.

Basing the amount of ghosts u get on that number should deal with a toss trying to mass arcons.



I think we should focus on HOTS openings that lead to mech compositions.... I'll go first.



reactor expand (only get 50 gas with two or three scvs on gas)

this basically gets you the fastest CC you can get with fas double rine production. It also tricks your opponent as they have no idea what your going to do with the gas.

I like to get a second barax asap (but you can streamline the build with only one rax), then put scvs back in gas and get 2nd gas. NOTE: if you get 2nd barax you will be mineral short for a while, so delay the gas.



ONE fac on first 100 gas

second reactor on next 50 gas (if you got second barax)



OK here is the fork in the road. What is protoss doing?

If protoss took a risky expo and you are afraid of falling behind, go pressure with one or two tanks and seige mode. If you have 2 rax you should be able to AT LEAST kill some probes at best take out greedy nexus. If the protoss has colo i would suggest retreating home and start turtling.



What if they didn't skimp on units or are planning attack, gateway or robotics?

start the turtling a little earlier and get 2 additional factories and a 3rd (inbase) CC and ONE armory. If the protoss tries to attack into 2 base rine tank with a wall in, they should not be able to even get a good trade.



now you are committed to a stable mech composition on evenish footing with protoss.

2 base to 2 base or 3B to 3B



you should have 2 facs with reactors (switched with barax) and one techlab.



Again this is when the road forks.

If toss commits to colo start viking production, If they go twilight, go ghost acadamy and focus on reactor units, BH and WM. If they go multiple starports, you need to get the skyterran ball rolling, one raven at a time with double viking production.



You cannot afford all of this on 2.5 bases, so you have to skimp on tanks if going sky, delay skyterran if you need extra tanks (to combat mass gateway or colosis), and slow down on tanks if going ghosts.



This is way beyond the realm of opening so I will stop here.



I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds

larse Profile Blog Joined March 2012 1595 Posts #15 Sea used Mech in WOL and won against Genius and Naniwa in 4 tournament games.



Of course someone can use mech and win games off Protoss in HOTS.



But that's not "Mech is viable".



If it's really viable then there will naturally be positive discourse.



Unfortunately, mech is not going to work if Blizzard is not willing to make some big changes to tank, immortal, hellbat, and raven.

chipmonklord17 Profile Joined February 2011 United States 8540 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-30 04:49:04 #16 I personally find that unless the toss goes tempest, or I mess up badly, that going mech isn't that bad. I mean like 15+ tanks and the rest hellbats with a few thors. I'm not that a very high league player but having a 15 tank army in siege mode is pretty much unstoppable on the ground.



That said if the toss goes air in any way you are utterly fucked, as you don't have the money/room in supply/infrastructure to invest in vikings/ghosts so a late game tempest army is pretty much unstoppable.



EDIT: Forgot to mention, I feel like it would help mech TvP if the ravens old seeker missile came back as that could help against the tempests, widow mines are nearly useless because of tempests absurd range combined with an observer

Yoshi Kirishima Profile Blog Joined July 2009 United States 9390 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-30 04:57:46 #17



Wow... never thought to go very heavy on ghost harass to punish protoss who go heavy on defense to stop hellion/banshee harassment. Sounds interesting... more details or tips on exactly how to do that? On December 30 2012 13:30 larse wrote:

But that's not "Mech is viable".



If it's really viable then there will naturally be positive discourse.







Disagree. It might not be "viable" in the sense that it has not been viable in the past and immediate present time period, but given the right adjustments, it can be played to a level where it is considered "viable".



For example, back then TvT mech was not "viable". However, Rainbow showed mech in TvT vs Clide in GSL (and it was quite a horrible opening, but Rainbow staying in the game past his horrible openings showed that mech compositions in mid/lategame can work vs bio).



Suddenly we start seeing more and more mech TvT, and then all the terrans start going mech in TvT, and then BFH is nerfed.



Same thing with Mech TvZ. There was a lot of bio mech and mech in early WoL (including beta), but then almost every terran was going marine/tank. After a really long time, Yoda went mech TvZ and showed that it could work at a Code A level, and then MVP started using mech quite often. Now, it doesn't seem to be working very well in GSL, but it could regain its success with more adjustments.



So given those two examples of mech tvz and tvt, mech in tvp could still be "viable" (viable meaning no hard counter, but not necessarily easy to pull off) with some adjustments to match the success of previous mech TvP games. Whether the protoss might be able to then find some hard counter to all styles of mech is not certain, and even if they do, meching terrans might be able to adapt again. Disagree. It might not be "viable" in the sense that it has not been viable in the past and immediate present time period, but given the right adjustments, it can be played to a level where it is considered "viable".For example, back then TvT mech was not "viable". However, Rainbow showed mech in TvT vs Clide in GSL (and it was quite a horrible opening, but Rainbow staying in the game past his horrible openings showed that mech compositions in mid/lategame can work vs bio).Suddenly we start seeing more and more mech TvT, and then all the terrans start going mech in TvT, and then BFH is nerfed.Same thing with Mech TvZ. There was a lot of bio mech and mech in early WoL (including beta), but then almost every terran was going marine/tank. After a really long time, Yoda went mech TvZ and showed that it could work at a Code A level, and then MVP started using mech quite often. Now, it doesn't seem to be working very well in GSL, but it could regain its success with more adjustments.So given those two examples of mech tvz and tvt, mech in tvp could still be "viable" (viable meaning no hard counter, but not necessarily easy to pull off) with some adjustments to match the success of previous mech TvP games. Whether the protoss might be able to then find some hard counter to all styles of mech is not certain, and even if they do, meching terrans might be able to adapt again. Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."

larse Profile Blog Joined March 2012 1595 Posts #18 On December 30 2012 13:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:

Wow... never thought to go very heavy on ghost harass to punish protoss who go heavy on defense to stop hellion/banshee harassment. Sounds interesting... more details or tips on exactly how to do that?



Show nested quote +

On December 30 2012 13:30 larse wrote:

But that's not "Mech is viable".



If it's really viable then there will naturally be positive discourse.







Disagree. It might not be "viable" in the sense that it has not been viable in the past and immediate present time period, but given the right adjustments, it can be played to a level where it is considered "viable".



For example, back then TvT mech was not "viable". However, Rainbow showed mech in TvT vs Clide in GSL (and it was quite a horrible opening, but Rainbow staying in the game past his horrible openings showed that mech compositions in mid/lategame can work vs bio).



Suddenly we start seeing more and more mech TvT, and then all the terrans start going mech in TvT, and then BFH is nerfed.



Same thing with Mech TvZ. There was a lot of bio mech and mech in early WoL (including beta), but then almost every terran was going marine/tank. After a really long time, Yoda went mech TvZ and showed that it could work at a Code A level, and then MVP started using mech quite often. Now, it doesn't seem to be working very well in GSL, but it could regain its success with more adjustments.



So given those two examples of mech tvz and tvt, mech in tvp could still be "viable" (viable meaning no hard counter, but not necessarily easy to pull off) with some adjustments to match the success of previous mech TvP games. Whether the protoss might be able to then find some hard counter to all styles of mech is not certain, and even if they do, meching terrans might be able to adapt again. Wow... never thought to go very heavy on ghost harass to punish protoss who go heavy on defense to stop hellion/banshee harassment. Sounds interesting... more details or tips on exactly how to do that?Disagree. It might not be "viable" in the sense that it has not been viable in the past and immediate present time period, but given the right adjustments, it can be played to a level where it is considered "viable".For example, back then TvT mech was not "viable". However, Rainbow showed mech in TvT vs Clide in GSL (and it was quite a horrible opening, but Rainbow staying in the game past his horrible openings showed that mech compositions in mid/lategame can work vs bio).Suddenly we start seeing more and more mech TvT, and then all the terrans start going mech in TvT, and then BFH is nerfed.Same thing with Mech TvZ. There was a lot of bio mech and mech in early WoL (including beta), but then almost every terran was going marine/tank. After a really long time, Yoda went mech TvZ and showed that it could work at a Code A level, and then MVP started using mech quite often. Now, it doesn't seem to be working very well in GSL, but it could regain its success with more adjustments.So given those two examples of mech tvz and tvt, mech in tvp could still be "viable" (viable meaning no hard counter, but not necessarily easy to pull off) with some adjustments to match the success of previous mech TvP games. Whether the protoss might be able to then find some hard counter to all styles of mech is not certain, and even if they do, meching terrans might be able to adapt again.



By your logic, Sea already showed how to use mech and won Protoss in many games, so there should have been a rising amount of Terran using mech in TvP after Sea's wins. But hell no, nothing happened. There are something fundamentally wrong about mech in TvP that makes the build not viable. By your logic, Sea already showed how to use mech and won Protoss in many games, so there should have been a rising amount of Terran using mech in TvP after Sea's wins. But hell no, nothing happened. There are something fundamentally wrong about mech in TvP that makes the build not viable.

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4831 Posts #19 On December 30 2012 15:08 larse wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 30 2012 13:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:

Wow... never thought to go very heavy on ghost harass to punish protoss who go heavy on defense to stop hellion/banshee harassment. Sounds interesting... more details or tips on exactly how to do that?



On December 30 2012 13:30 larse wrote:

But that's not "Mech is viable".



If it's really viable then there will naturally be positive discourse.







Disagree. It might not be "viable" in the sense that it has not been viable in the past and immediate present time period, but given the right adjustments, it can be played to a level where it is considered "viable".



For example, back then TvT mech was not "viable". However, Rainbow showed mech in TvT vs Clide in GSL (and it was quite a horrible opening, but Rainbow staying in the game past his horrible openings showed that mech compositions in mid/lategame can work vs bio).



Suddenly we start seeing more and more mech TvT, and then all the terrans start going mech in TvT, and then BFH is nerfed.



Same thing with Mech TvZ. There was a lot of bio mech and mech in early WoL (including beta), but then almost every terran was going marine/tank. After a really long time, Yoda went mech TvZ and showed that it could work at a Code A level, and then MVP started using mech quite often. Now, it doesn't seem to be working very well in GSL, but it could regain its success with more adjustments.



So given those two examples of mech tvz and tvt, mech in tvp could still be "viable" (viable meaning no hard counter, but not necessarily easy to pull off) with some adjustments to match the success of previous mech TvP games. Whether the protoss might be able to then find some hard counter to all styles of mech is not certain, and even if they do, meching terrans might be able to adapt again. Wow... never thought to go very heavy on ghost harass to punish protoss who go heavy on defense to stop hellion/banshee harassment. Sounds interesting... more details or tips on exactly how to do that?Disagree. It might not be "viable" in the sense that it has not been viable in the past and immediate present time period, but given the right adjustments, it can be played to a level where it is considered "viable".For example, back then TvT mech was not "viable". However, Rainbow showed mech in TvT vs Clide in GSL (and it was quite a horrible opening, but Rainbow staying in the game past his horrible openings showed that mech compositions in mid/lategame can work vs bio).Suddenly we start seeing more and more mech TvT, and then all the terrans start going mech in TvT, and then BFH is nerfed.Same thing with Mech TvZ. There was a lot of bio mech and mech in early WoL (including beta), but then almost every terran was going marine/tank. After a really long time, Yoda went mech TvZ and showed that it could work at a Code A level, and then MVP started using mech quite often. Now, it doesn't seem to be working very well in GSL, but it could regain its success with more adjustments.So given those two examples of mech tvz and tvt, mech in tvp could still be "viable" (viable meaning no hard counter, but not necessarily easy to pull off) with some adjustments to match the success of previous mech TvP games. Whether the protoss might be able to then find some hard counter to all styles of mech is not certain, and even if they do, meching terrans might be able to adapt again.



By your logic, Sea already showed how to use mech and won Protoss in many games, so there should have been a rising amount of Terran using mech in TvP after Sea's wins. But hell no, nothing happened. There are something fundamentally wrong about mech in TvP that makes the build not viable. By your logic, Sea already showed how to use mech and won Protoss in many games, so there should have been a rising amount of Terran using mech in TvP after Sea's wins. But hell no, nothing happened. There are something fundamentally wrong about mech in TvP that makes the build not viable.



To be honest, in Sea's case, his mech style was very much based on the metagame. You can't do reactor hellions after expanding and survive against ANY protoss all-in. In HotS, with better scouting from the MsC as well as the increased strength of all-ins, the opening Sea came up with is even LESS viable.



However, in the end, I think he had the right idea. Mass hellions > protoss early-game.

To be honest, in Sea's case, his mech style was very much based on the metagame. You can't do reactor hellions after expanding and survive against ANY protoss all-in. In HotS, with better scouting from the MsC as well as the increased strength of all-ins, the opening Sea came up with is even LESS viable.However, in the end, I think he had the right idea. Mass hellions > protoss early-game. Strategy

0mnipotent Profile Joined November 2011 Canada 2 Posts #20 Honestly. At this point this is topic is less beating a dead horse and more a puddle of pulverized flesh and blood.



There's nothing less to talk about imo.



I've watched, rewatched and followed day9's daily on mech TvP to no avail, i've developed my own tech oriented build which works only somewhat but STILL better than what is suggested. It's just far too immobile, inefficient, slow and expensive to do. IF you manage to get to a stable position where you KNOW you can max on supply efficient units like tanks, vikings and ravens then you may have a chance. The fact remains that in WoL nearly all protoss units (and even the warp gate mechanic) directly counter most mech units, there's essentially no reason for trying this playstyle over even a weak bio build or even on a HUGE map like metropolis.



Idk what could be said for HOTS but it's probably even worse. Except for the battlehellion which may have neutralized the threat of zealots and improved mech durability the presence of the new HOTS additions looks like a death sentence for meching TvP. Tempests and oracles will make already immobile and inefficient units worse...



What's the point to it? Like a mad scientist we must ask ourselves, NOT how we do mech TvP but WHY? Massing carriers is a useful skill toi have

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