evilfatsh1t Profile Joined October 2010 Australia 1374 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 00:25:04 #2161 bottle is fine. you dont need wand if you have arcanes tbh. youre not gonna use your whole mana pool in one team fight. also bottle gives you a legit excuse to take all the bounty runes

bottle is only viable if you get bounty runes though. if you get bottle but you dont plan on picking up as many bounty runes as you can, then you will indeed get a late blink.

arcanes+bottle is pretty overkill on mana for a guy who has no reason to be spamming fissure. you could make a case for using mana to farm neutrals, but then youre not really roaming or protecting someone like you should be

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 00:35:36 #2162 It still should be on the guide, at least situationally.



There's nothing wrong with starting a fuckton of clarities on Shaker. I don't even know how Bottle has anything to do with your starting items because you'd still get Boots first if you're roaming.



How is Bottle "a lot more comfortable to snag" when it's 600 gold straight up while you get a Stick from the side shop for 200 and don't even have to upgrade it if the game doesn't suit it? Moderator

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts #2163 On October 14 2014 09:22 evilfatsh1t wrote:

bottle is fine. you dont need wand if you have arcanes tbh. youre not gonna use your whole mana pool in one team fight. also bottle gives you a legit excuse to take all the bounty runes

bottle is only viable if you get bounty runes though. if you get bottle but you dont plan on picking up as many bounty runes as you can, then you will indeed get a late blink.

arcanes+bottle is pretty overkill on mana for a guy who has no reason to be spamming fissure. you could make a case for using mana to farm neutrals, but then youre not really roaming or protecting someone like you should be

Arc+Wand, Arc+Bottle, and Boots+Bottle+Wand are all going to be ok some games, there's no reason why wand should be gone from the guide entirely when the other two are there. Arc+Wand, Arc+Bottle, and Boots+Bottle+Wand are all going to be ok some games, there's no reason why wand should be gone from the guide entirely when the other two are there. Moderator

evilfatsh1t Profile Joined October 2010 Australia 1374 Posts #2164 On October 14 2014 09:32 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 14 2014 09:22 evilfatsh1t wrote:

bottle is fine. you dont need wand if you have arcanes tbh. youre not gonna use your whole mana pool in one team fight. also bottle gives you a legit excuse to take all the bounty runes

bottle is only viable if you get bounty runes though. if you get bottle but you dont plan on picking up as many bounty runes as you can, then you will indeed get a late blink.

arcanes+bottle is pretty overkill on mana for a guy who has no reason to be spamming fissure. you could make a case for using mana to farm neutrals, but then youre not really roaming or protecting someone like you should be

Arc+Wand, Arc+Bottle, and Boots+Bottle+Wand are all going to be ok some games, there's no reason why wand should be gone from the guide entirely when the other two are there. Arc+Wand, Arc+Bottle, and Boots+Bottle+Wand are all going to be ok some games, there's no reason why wand should be gone from the guide entirely when the other two are there.

i never said it should be gone from the guide. i was merely providing a justification for torte's choice of bottle over wand i never said it should be gone from the guide. i was merely providing a justification for torte's choice of bottle over wand

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts #2165 It's gone entirely from the guide though, which is why I took issue with it at all. Moderator

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 02:37:34 #2166 The following items I'm currently stuck with fitting in rotation or flat out removing:



Wand

Arcane

Urn of Shadows

Bottle



For someone like Bane, I can keep Urn, Wand (Early Game) and then stick Arcane in Core Items



But it isn't so clear-cut for other heroes. Earthshaker was those heroes on a crack.

Ogre Magi is another where I have Bottle -> Brown Boots -> Wand -> Arcane.



etc.



I should stick Bottle into Situational Items, but it doesn't feel like it is so much as situational as relatively much more prominent of use especially since rune change. Throw Urn of Shadows in and they all have very specific situations that I can't outline in a guide without going overboard on the Situational Slots.



IO has Bottle, Urn of Shadows, Wand, Bottle.

Leshrac has Wand, Arcane, Urn of Shadows with Bottle as Situational and Meka.





There's a lot of particularity on these heroes that makes everything muddled. If I put a ton of clarities on Earthshaker then it wouldn't make sense to get Bottle given the clarities are meant to compensate until Wand and Arcane meanwhile. A mana "floater" where Earthshaker can freely replenish in fights or through runes until he snags his two main core: Arcane/Blink Dagger.



The early-game is split into a blend of varied playstyles and match-ups that I'm facing a challenge of picking one or the other or settling on a middle-ground that at least incorporates the majority of the four items.







I think I'd probably prefer placing Bottle as Situational Items for a variety of heroes, but it also affects Starting Items for some. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 07:00:02 #2167 If I put a ton of clarities on Earthshaker then it wouldn't make sense to get Bottle given the clarities are meant to compensate until Wand and Arcane meanwhile.

You keep getting fixated on this, but this isn't really true. A roaming Shaker will still get Boots first because by and large, Boots has a larger impact on roaming efficiency than Bottle does. As such, it's not like you can skimp on Clarities just because you're getting Bottle. The Bottle only comes 300 gold faster than finishing Arcanes does.



Regardless of whether or not you're getting bottle, you're still going to mass clarity start unless your team forces you into getting both chicken and wards, and even then, you're probably going to use the chick to ferry some clarities. You keep getting fixated on this, but this isn't really true. A roaming Shaker will still get Boots first because by and large, Boots has a larger impact on roaming efficiency than Bottle does. As such, it's not like you can skimp on Clarities just because you're getting Bottle. The Bottle only comes 300 gold faster than finishing Arcanes does.Regardless of whether or not you're getting bottle, you're still going to mass clarity start unless your team forces you into getting both chicken and wards, and even then, you're probably going to use the chick to ferry some clarities. Moderator

Belisarius Profile Joined November 2010 Australia 3335 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 05:52:57 #2168 Yeah I mean if you can get boots and bottle from a no clarity start, you've killed like two heroes per fissure or you've repeatedly been back to base.



Personally I would consider bottle and arcanes an either/or until after blink, unless there's a very good reason to get both.

Doomblaze Profile Joined October 2010 United States 389 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 13:55:47 #2169 Its good to have 2 bottles now, but they should generally be on the offlane and the mid, not the support. Bottle doesnt fit on earthshaker since he usually needs the mana much more than the hp. He does great with runes but you can just pick them up if you see the opportunity. I dream of a world where the mid player hands me his empty bottle for a bounty rune and a sip, but we all know thats never happening.



Arcane and wand (stick) are fine on ES. You don't want heroes who heavily rely on blink dagger to also get bottle and urn, since it screws up their midgame without it.



Bottle is better on ogre since hes more likely to get up close and personal. Ignite and his armor allow him to tower dive when ganking and come out alive. With ES, the ganks are decided on how you fissure. If you block them next to a hero or 2, they're dead. You're not going to be the one who runs into people. Ogre can benefit more from both the HP and mana, and doesnt need a blink to be effective later in the game. In Mushi we trust

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2170 So what is the order of starting to core items? I'll put Bottle in situational and re-examine all heroes which I want to include bottle. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-14 18:34:38 #2171 Sniper (Middle/Lane)

Sniper (Middle/Lane)

New Tab: Core - Mask of Madness

Revised Item Build:



Core Items: Phase Boots, Yasha, Maelstrom, Sange & Yasha, Black King Bar

Core - Mask of Madness: Power Treads, Mask of Madness, Maelstrom, Black King Bar, Manta Style

Situational Items: Ring of Aquila, Blink Dagger, Monkey King Bar

Extension Items: Mjollnir, Daedalus, Eye of Skadi, Satanic, Butterfly



I don't like building this hero at all.



Earthshaker

Added Magic Wand to Early

Created Tab: Situaitonal Items

Moved Bottle to Situational Items



Enchantress

Created new tab: "Core - Aghanim's"

Added Hand of Midas to Core - Aghanim's

Added Power Treads to Core - Aghanim's

Added Aghanim's Scepter to Core - Aghanim's

Added Orchid Malevolence to Core - Aghanim's







For Alternative "Core" ways to play heroes, please let me know. It is something I want to start incorporating as I like offering players choice in how they want to play the hero (offensive Enchantress over a more traditional one, etc.)



For many heroes, I will be trying to shift bottle. Especially for roamers and proactive early-game heroes New Tab: Core - Mask of MadnessRevised Item Build:Core Items: Phase Boots, Yasha, Maelstrom, Sange & Yasha, Black King BarCore - Mask of Madness: Power Treads, Mask of Madness, Maelstrom, Black King Bar, Manta StyleSituational Items: Ring of Aquila, Blink Dagger, Monkey King BarExtension Items: Mjollnir, Daedalus, Eye of Skadi, Satanic, ButterflyAdded Magic Wand to EarlyCreated Tab: Situaitonal ItemsMoved Bottle to Situational ItemsCreated new tab: "Core - Aghanim's"Added Hand of Midas to Core - Aghanim'sAdded Power Treads to Core - Aghanim'sAdded Aghanim's Scepter to Core - Aghanim'sAdded Orchid Malevolence to Core - Aghanim'sFor Alternative "Core" ways to play heroes, please let me know. It is something I want to start incorporating as I like offering playersin how they want to play the hero (offensive Enchantress over a more traditional one, etc.) https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2172 Stats coming for this month.



We're doing it two days early as I want it to line up with the 31st of October. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

CosmicSpiral Profile Joined December 2010 United States 4404 Posts #2173 I would make the argument that Maelstrom should be core for Void, but Mask should be situational (but a decent choice in many situations). Due to the way Mask boosts his killing potential, it creates certain issues regarding snowballing and item selection later on in the game. Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.

tehh4ck3r Profile Joined August 2013 Magrathea 5918 Posts #2174 For a newbie, Mask of Madness is "more core" than Mjollnir. Administrator In those days, spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2175 On October 16 2014 09:12 CosmicSpiral wrote:

I would make the argument that Maelstrom should be core for Void, but Mask should be situational (but a decent choice in many situations). Due to the way Mask boosts his killing potential, it creates certain issues regarding snowballing and item selection later on in the game.



They're situational, Mask of Madness is generally more accepted. Maelstrom (and potentially Mjollnir) can also be picked up alongside. They're situational, Mask of Madness is generally more accepted. Maelstrom (and potentially Mjollnir) can also be picked up alongside. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2176 stats in about an hour https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

CosmicSpiral Profile Joined December 2010 United States 4404 Posts Last Edited: 2014-10-16 15:48:54 #2179 On October 16 2014 23:00 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 16 2014 09:12 CosmicSpiral wrote:

I would make the argument that Maelstrom should be core for Void, but Mask should be situational (but a decent choice in many situations). Due to the way Mask boosts his killing potential, it creates certain issues regarding snowballing and item selection later on in the game.



They're situational, Mask of Madness is generally more accepted. Maelstrom (and potentially Mjollnir) can also be picked up alongside. They're situational, Mask of Madness is generally more accepted. Maelstrom (and potentially Mjollnir) can also be picked up alongside.



You have Mask as a core item and Maelstrom as situational. Mask can only be considered core on offlane Void, as he has to be stingy with his initial item choice. MoM + Maelstrom is a snowball build and unreliable in the hard carry role. With tower gold diminished and Chrono repeatedly nerfed in 6.82, it's harder to secure the necessary kills to stay ahead on the item curve. Mask also gives you a lot of problems that Maelstrom doesn't.



Maelstrom after MoM is usually necessary. MoM -> Aghs and similar builds died out because the timing window where Time Lock alone does decisive damage is too small. You have Mask as a core item and Maelstrom as situational. Mask can only be considered core on offlane Void, as he has to be stingy with his initial item choice. MoM + Maelstrom is a snowball build and unreliable in the hard carry role. With tower gold diminished and Chrono repeatedly nerfed in 6.82, it's harder to secure the necessary kills to stay ahead on the item curve. Mask also gives you a lot of problems that Maelstrom doesn't.Maelstrom after MoM is usually necessary. MoM -> Aghs and similar builds died out because the timing window where Time Lock alone does decisive damage is too small. Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.

Laserist Profile Joined September 2011 Turkey 2891 Posts #2180 ^ I think I disagree all of your points.



MOM can be easily build on safe lane voids to let him participate fights very early(level 6-8), increase farming speed in jungle. Can be still proves its value in mid game where you land good chronos which prevent intervention from the opposition.



Time lock is very very valuable skill and remains strong until late-game scenarios where you farm more than the worth of MOM with the help of MOM itself anyways. Tower gold and chrono nerfs didn't reduce the effectiveness of mom since you at most have 100-200 least gold more because of tower nerfs and 0.5 seconds less chrono can be ignored by the help of supports.



Since the last 6.82c nerf chrono even more, aghs would be a very valuable choice. Worst case you can sell Mom to have a better orb/AS in later stages of the game when the item drops off. “Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”

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