Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19838 Posts Last Edited: 2012-08-06 20:22:08 #2 Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?



And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed. "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

Roxor9999 Profile Joined December 2011 Netherlands 759 Posts #3 On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote:

Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?



And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.

Actually moving 20 lings is only 1 action.

OT: The best way is just have more apm instead of trying to be good with 40. Actually moving 20 lings is only 1 action.OT: The best way is just have more apm instead of trying to be good with 40.

yankjenets Profile Joined June 2010 United States 227 Posts #4 On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote:

Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?



And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.



If you are moving each of your lings individually, then something is seriously wrong...

I definitely think it is theoretically possible to play at an NA GM level with ~50 APM, if no actions are wasted. If you are moving each of your lings individually, then something is seriously wrong...I definitely think it is theoretically possible to play at an NA GM level with ~50 APM, if no actions are wasted.

FinalForm Profile Joined August 2010 United States 437 Posts #5 Don't worry about apm so much, it grows in tandem with your understading of the game and how to make the appropriate decisions

ishyishy Profile Joined February 2011 United States 826 Posts #6 I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").



When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.



I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.



Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."



This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.

Neurosis Profile Joined October 2010 United States 891 Posts #7 On August 07 2012 05:37 yankjenets wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote:

Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?



And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.



If you are moving each of your lings individually, then something is seriously wrong...

I definitely think it is theoretically possible to play at an NA GM level with ~50 APM, if no actions are wasted. If you are moving each of your lings individually, then something is seriously wrong...I definitely think it is theoretically possible to play at an NA GM level with ~50 APM, if no actions are wasted.



They're out there, it's definitely possible. Speed is important in starcraft but first and foremost it's a strategy game. Good decision making is the most important tool to learn. They're out there, it's definitely possible. Speed is important in starcraft but first and foremost it's a strategy game. Good decision making is the most important tool to learn.

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19838 Posts #8 Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

NeMeSiS3 Profile Blog Joined February 2012 Canada 2969 Posts Last Edited: 2012-08-06 20:45:35 #9 Why not just improve and get... say 50 apm, or 60... A thread on being effective while acting in a completely ineffective way is redundant and teaches bad mechanics in my opinion.



Sure, you can win, but why? That's like me saying "I can walk a mile with 1 foot, look at me it's so hard" Can you explain what really makes you think this is a good idea? FoTG fighting!

ishyishy Profile Joined February 2011 United States 826 Posts #10 On August 07 2012 05:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote:

Why not just improve and get... say 50 apm, or 60... A thread on being effective while acting in a completely ineffective way is redundant and teaches bad mechanics in my opinion.



Sure, you can win, but why? That's like me saying "I can walk a mile with 1 foot, look at me it's so hard" Can you explain what really makes you think this is a good idea?





I agree with this.



40 APM is actually really reeally slow. I am an extremely slow player, and even I have over 50 most of the time. I agree with this.40 APM is actually really reeally slow. I am an extremely slow player, and even I have over 50 most of the time.

Citherna Profile Joined October 2011 United States 32 Posts #11 When you play as zerg, generally you're also building more units, (perhaps that's the cause of all the extra APM for you); building 40 sets of zerglings obviously requires 40 actions, whereas building two tanks or colossi requires... well... two apm. :x.



In short, the best strategy with low apm would be a strategy that uses high-cost units, (protoss, or terran cheese with thors/banshees/trollerific stuffs :D). I don't think limiting yourself to 40 APM is necessary, just tell newbies what to do with their relatively low APM; i.e. don't focus as much on stutter-stepping, and focus on building units back at home. Good luck :D!



TheBigO Profile Blog Joined August 2011 United States 97 Posts #12 I think this series is a good idea for a few reasons.



First, there are a lot of people who are new at the game (yes, people still buy Starcraft 2). These people may not be used to playing an RTS game, and their mechanics will be slow. Sure, you can tell them to just "mass games' to increase their APM, but this can encourage mindless spamming and poor mechanics. If you teach them how to use their APM effectively and avoid making mistakes, they will improve their mechanics even with low APM. They will also gain valuable knowledge about how to deal with a variety of situations on the ladder. Then, as they mass games on their own, their APM can improve as well as their mechanics, and they can become better starcraft players faster.



Also, there are a lot of older people who play Starcraft 2. Generally, people who are older tend to have slower APM, and their APM tends to not increase much over time. This series can teach them to improve their game sense and their mechanics so that they can make the most out of their APM.



Overall, it is true that having 100+ APM can allow you to do much more, but APM is so much more than spamming. It is the mechanics and the game knowledge behind the APM that matters most. This series is meant to address that. That is why I approve of the series. I really need a better quote... but I have no ideas :( .

kranten Profile Joined January 2012 Netherlands 235 Posts #13 On August 07 2012 05:42 Cyro wrote:

Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively



Yeah building units causes big APM spikes, and inject adds another ~20 APM on 3 injected bases. Yeah building units causes big APM spikes, and inject adds another ~20 APM on 3 injected bases.

MrLlama Profile Joined December 2010 United States 454 Posts Last Edited: 2012-08-06 22:06:02 #14 I appreciate the feedback. It definitely shows that there was some necessary clarification which I have added to the bottom of the OP. Please read that and if you have any questions continue to post them and I will answer them.



I have also added a section called The Point for added clarification:



The Point:

If I can hold something with 40APM, you can hold it with anything >= 40APM









www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos

Pylons Profile Joined June 2011 Canada 54 Posts #15 my friend, google was top 8 grandmasters with about 40 - 60 apm, so 40 apm is definitely enough to win in masters league!

Willzzz Profile Joined December 2010 United Kingdom 774 Posts #16 Doing things right is definitely better than doing things fast. If you can do both then all the better.

RoberP Profile Joined March 2011 United Kingdom 101 Posts Last Edited: 2012-08-06 22:51:36 #17 I like the idea! Definitely a great way to showcase what's important at crisis moments. Also it's cool to see people use only the actions they need to - how awesome would it be to see a pro whose every action was meaningful, whose every gesture was necessary? Finesse is sexy - the guy who wins with a single stroke is much cooler than the guy who bludgeons with 50 - of course once you have the necessary speed to execute this. One I struggled with recently:

ViKingPrime

Terran

TvP

1 rax expo, 2nd rax -> double gas -> factory -> tanks

Proxy voids + warp gate all in

Shakuras plateau.

Heavenlee Profile Joined April 2012 United States 966 Posts Last Edited: 2012-08-06 22:49:58 #18 I feel it's possible with toss. I'm low masters with ~120 apm atm and my build orders are not optimized as much as they could be, and I spam in the beginning. If you're efficient and everything goes down the second it needs to you can just overrun with sheer outmacroing because toss macro isn't especially difficult--probes, pylons, gas, make buildings, make units. I still don't know if 40 is possible because I still have more than that just kind of making probes, but ~60 is I guess, especially if you turtle and a-move a deathball.

Sir Z Profile Joined August 2012 United States 2 Posts #19 As a gold player with fairly low APM, and who's not really interested in spending the time doing APM drills, I'm totally interested in this.



Name: SirZ

Race: terran

Match up: TvP

Your Build: Boxer's 1 rax FE into MMM

His Build: any build that prioritizes psi storm chargelot

Specific Map?: none

Comments: biggest problem is how to efficiently use ghosts.



etherealfall Profile Joined December 2011 Australia 429 Posts #20 I really don't understand why you would advocate for settling for less mechanical skill. 40APM is incredibly slow. By simply mineral stacking, my early game APM is 110APM.

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