Posted 25 May 2015 - 10:44 PM

jay35, on 25 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

But only for the couple Clan mechs that actually have the right combination of engine size and armor upgrades that allow enough speed *and* free tonnage to make it effective, and by the DWF because that's how it's supposed to be (a barely mobile turret).



The rest of the time, using "Clan tech" as an excuse to do things is a moot point because it runs hot and cannot be truly boated effectively by most Clan mechs, therefore it is not a consistent problem, it is an exception.



The problem still stands that the "exceptions" essentially become the norm because they become clear winners when they are able to circumvent the system itself when many other mech's can't. Even under this proposed system, mechs that are the "average" would barely be affected by this system. You won't see any clan mechs that are less then a heavy class or a laser vomit medium ever even effected by this. Nor would many of the heavies and assaults that don't sit at the top of the meta. (Common summoner builds wouldn't even be touched by this in any significant way.)

jay35, on 25 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

The only real issue with TTK is a group of mechs focus-firing one mech (or someone in a Light mech being foolish enough to stand still in front of a 90+ ton assault mech). In pretty much every other scenario of two mechs 1-vs-1, TTK is just fine where it is today.



I agree with this. This isn't a proposal meant to drive TTK into the ground. Its a proposal to widen the field so the end all be all of the game doesn't boil down to who can do the best high alpha build better then the other guy. I'm proposing for the most part that most energy based ghost heat gets trimmed down compared to what it is now. You can still equip the same loadouts, dish out the same damage, and not be penalized at all, the only thing that changes is that you either do so as a more DPS oriented build, or you sacrafice DPS for the benefit of high pinpoint alphas. You still have the option, and heat is not there to penlize you to where its prohibative to do so. The only thing it does is pretty much mean that if you want to take that shot to do that massive amount of damage over a short period of time, you do so at the expense of your next recycle time.

jay35, on 25 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

And rightly so. Aside from the fallacy in your statement, being that boating missile weapons DOES create significant ghost heat, Ballistics SHOULD be able to not suffer the heat effects more common to Energy-based and Missile systems. That helps make up for their significant downsides such as cycle rate and overall weight.



LRM's yeah, and SRM's only when its something like a splat cat. (And even then it can get many more alpha's off then any energy weapon going 3 weapons over its ghost heat "allowance.) As for the ballistics, I can't disagree more. Their recycle rates and overall DPS are already better then lasers, and the fact that they are unaffected by ghost heat only sees the meta shift heavily to their use. Its why you see Gauss ER ML's, or Gauss LPL's be so common, as well as why boating 5 UAC 5's on a dire is effective, despite being 2 weapons over its "ghost heat" limit through a system specifically designed to curb single weapon spam. With the exception of AC 20's, ballistics can pretty much ignore the effects of ghost heat.

jay35, on 25 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

True. However, that was not its purpose. Its purpose, as you stated earlier, is to reduce boating of one weapon type, particularly Energy and Missile weapons which are not as tonnage-limited as Ballistics. And it does that fairly well, with a few exceptions. It changed the meta to become one of combined weapon loadouts, and naturally smart players will gravitate towards loadouts that synergize well. Not seeing the problem with that.

It did do it fairly well. I'm not arguing it didn't work, I'm arguing that all it shifted the game towards coming up with combo's specifically meant to get around it to do the same massive damage that the system was meant to curb. I don't have an issue with the combo's, what I have an issue with is that those combo's are meant to chase damage to a point where most other mechs in the game simply cannot compete. Either because they do not have the diversity of hard points to do so, or they are restricted in some other ways. This is meant to provide more options for mechs that simply cannot compete with those other mechs. The mechs that still utilize those combos' still have them, and they still remain potent, but they simply are no longer the "end all be all" of the game. Allowing more diverse loadouts or options because everyone isn't simply chasing narrow combos for what people concider "good."

jay35, on 25 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Your proposed system, while interesting, is much more complex and therefore less friendly to new players and casual pilots alike. It also forces the game toward play at a glacially slow pace. MWO already has a high TTK game* compared to most fps games. Raising it further only caters to the armchair tabletoppers that aren't part of the competitive scene, while turning off competitive-minded players looking for skill-based play that rewards aiming skill and tactical positioning. By raising TTK to a higher level, you also inherently reduce the value of tactical positioning because you are reducing the value gained by the element of surprise or any other tactical advantage by giving the loser in the exchange more opportunity to survive what should have been a fatal error.

On the new player front, I completely fail to see how having a system that treats everything on a level playing field through integrated UI over an arbitrary system completely hidden from the player with no explanation through the game or while your playing in a game is worse. A system that currently sees people macroing keys to ensure they don't get penalized because they pressed a button a fraction of a second before an invisible cool down timer goes off. A system that reinforces a ridged meta that a minority of mechs can preform well (because lord knows new players will know those weapon combo's, or those specific mechs that are the "easy button" loadouts that they can just roll around in.)Not to mention that this proposal hardly effects a majority of mechs in the game. Almost all starting mechs a player would have would either not be affected by this system in any significant way, or they would have to learn the arbitrary system anyways to use the mech in the first place. (Looking at you trial banshee.) So I fail to see how this is "new player unfriendly" in comparison to not only what we have now, but also in regards to mech or loadout diversity when everything plays on a level field over having to teach players the exact way to get around the inlaid restictions.Again on the TTK side, I'm not trying to run TTK into the ground. This proposal is about widening the field to what is viable so what is "good" doesn't get reduced down to chasing an alpha number using the "special combo" of weapons is the only way something is good in the game. This has nothing to do with TT, and I honestly don't know where you are getting that from when I was pretty explicit within the proposal that I want to deepen tactical play so its not just reduced down to some first order optimal build that you can one button push through the game, but have it come down to player skill (and positioning is always going to be a big thing in this game.)

jay35, on 25 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

*TTK stands for Time To Kill, and a having high TTK means it takes a long time to kill the target. MWO already has as fairly high TTK compared to how it started out. Armor values have been doubled, and many mechs have been given additional internal structure on top of that. Aside from focused fire from multiple enemies at once (or making a bad decision in a Locust), TTK is generally just fine. It's certainly not a reason to implement a system like you're proposing.



TTK is fine, but this system has nothing to do with TTK and everything to do with Alpha chasing. You can still get the same DPS out of builds, DPS builds already out there like AC Jagers, pulse firestarters, and nearly any mech under 60 tons is pretty much unaffected by this. To flip the example of the Twolf I used around, T-wolf laser vomit as it stands already has a 15-30% cooldown reduction period. What would players think if you only had that cool down when you fired all your weapons, but when you space out the shots, that cool down reduction pretty much goes away. Because that is what I'm proposing. Adding more tactical depth to the game to widen the field, make it more transparent and even to allow it to be easy to digest, and allow those players that are more skilled at the game physical options to how they wish to approach playing the game while in the match rather then having a frames viability begin and end in the mechlab.

Edited by SpiralFace, 25 May 2015 - 11:05 PM.