After I left Mormonism, many active Mormon loved ones have tried to save me and call me to repentance. These conversations are always tricky, so in a feeble attempt to learn how the Socratic dialogue can arrive at truth in a respectful way, I’ve written some fictional dialogues between Socrates, who recently left Mormonism, and Plato, his active Mormon friend.

Today’s topic: getting called to repentance.

[Plato and Socrates are walking together on a trail through a forest. Plato stops, puts his hand on Socrates’ shoulder. Socrates turns around. Plato looks him in the eye, and begins speaking.]

Plato:

Socrates, there’s something I need to tell you. I’ve heard that you’ve left the Church, and I know that your parents and siblings are absolutely heartbroken over it. I am too. You may not care about this, but I feel impressed to bear my testimony to you and remind you of the covenants you’ve made with God. You knew it was true. I was with you when we were growing up in the Church, and a lot of the spiritual experiences that I witnessed are things I experienced with you. You were always such an example to me, which is why it hurts so much to see that you’ve fallen so far. Actually, forget that you knew it was true — I know that you know that it’s true, even in this very moment. You’re rebelling against something you know is true. I know that this Church contains the fullness of the Gospel and will give you peace in this life and salvation in the world to come. I want that for you, and for your kids. I’m worried about the fact that you’ll be leading your children astray from the Savior, and I testify with boldness that you are on the wrong path and need to get back on the right one with the rest of us.

Socrates:

[Deep breath. Then a big smile.]

Plato, I want you to know one thing: I love you. You’ve been an incredible friend growing up, and you’ve been a wonderful friend now. I know that you are saying what you’re saying out of love and concern for me and my family. I want you to know that I will always be your friend and always support you. In fact, I’ll be the biggest cheerleader as you live your life in the Church. I will never forget the wonderful experiences I had in the Church and the deep, powerful friendship and love I felt with the community. No matter what I say or believe, I want you to know that I love you and your family. Please don’t consider my lack of belief as an attack on you and what you stand for. I see things differently now, but I’m always going to hold on to those good memories and lessons from my childhood. I don’t believe in the Church anymore, but I believe in our friendship and the love that my circle of friends and family all share with one another. My love for you is never going to change. I’m not going anywhere.

Plato:

How can you throw away your temple covenants? Does your marriage to your wife not matter anymore to you?

Socrates:

It means the world to me. Let’s see how I can explain. In your view, why do you think I would leave the Church?

Plato:

Because you’ve been reading anti-Mormon literature that has turned your spirit dark. You used to have such light in your eyes, but I can sense that it’s definitely gone now.

Socrates:

[Chuckles]

I’ll bet you five bucks that if we took a photo of my face from a few years ago when I was an actively participating member of the Church, and a picture of my face now under the same lighting conditions, and you examined the precise color values of the pixels, you wouldn’t find any difference. I think the reason why you feel that there is darkness in my eyes is because of the confusion, sorrow, or anger you probably feel looking at me and thinking about the fact that your friend has betrayed your tribe by leaving it. I have not left you, Plato. I’ve left behind a set of beliefs and a community. There is good in those beliefs and in that community, but in my view, I’m convinced that the beliefs are not actually true. Please hold on to those beliefs as you see fit for you and your family, but unfortunately, even though my life would be easier if I embraced those beliefs, I’m simply unable to do it.

Plato:

You must have never had a testimony.

Socrates:

I don’t think that’s true. I most certainly did believe in the Church and fervently so. I think it would be good to talk about how came to believe what we believe. Why do you believe in the Church?

Plato:

I don’t want to get into a debate about my faith. You need to feel the Spirit stirring inside you again. You need come back to the light you once had.

Socrates:

Alrighty. I’ll talk about my experience about how I came to know the Church was true when I believed. I followed Moroni’s promise. I read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. I felt powerful feelings sometimes that filled me from head to toe. When I’d read about the Savior’s visit to the Nephites, it was riveting and beautiful. When I sang the hymn “Joseph’s First Prayer,” I felt deeply moved. Sometimes during General Conference, I’d hear talks that would fill me with the Spirit and inspire me to change my life for the better. I prayed, I fasted, and I would, from time to time, have profound spiritual experiences.

I can name specific moments when I felt the Holy Ghost powerfully. I remember once teaching a lesson as a missionary in a small town, and I remember the feeling that the room was filled with love as we were teaching a woman whose family resisted her desire to join the Church. I remember hearing one of President Monson’s first talks as the new Prophet of the Church. The talk was called “Joy in the Journey,” and I felt inspired to pray in thanks for the difficulties in my life rather than pray for help with them. It was incredible.

I have for sure felt the Spirit strongly in so many instances. Then how on earth can I leave the Church, having been given such powerful witnesses from God?

This might surprise you, but I wish it were true. I wish that the Church’s teachings were God’s word given to mankind. If I still shared the faith with my parents, I feel that we could be closer than ever, but I feel now that there is this boundary between us because of my transition of faith. It sucks. But I’m convinced that the Spirit is simply emotion. When you hear a narrative that is compelling and satisfying, you might feel emotional about the hope that it is true. But, just because you feel a powerful emotion doesn’t make it true. The universe around us is what it is, and no matter how much I try, I can’t change it. I can’t make the Church true, even though I want it to be.

Plato:

You could have that deep relationship again with your parents. You just need to humble yourself and come back to Church.

Socrates:

Sometimes, I really wish I could. I wish I could un-know some of the things I know about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations and translations he made. But, unfortunately, I cannot forget the things that I know now. I don’t mean to use the following example in a way that disparages your faith, but imagine knowing what you know about Santa Claus and trying to believe that he is real again. It’s simply not possible, even if you really wanted to.

Plato:

The Church has nothing to do with Santa Claus.

Socrates:

You’re right, it has nothing to do with Santa Claus. However, it’s similar in this way: after learning a few key things about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the modern day leaders of the Church, and learning that these key things aren’t anti-Mormon lies but historical facts verified by LDS and non-LDS scholars alike, I will never be able to believe in it again like I did when I was younger.

Plato:

What, so you think I’m deceived that the Book of Mormon is true? You think we’re all deceived? You think your family is deceived?

Socrates:

Well, hmm. Let me ask a question: if the Book of Mormon were not true, would you want to know?

Plato:

Yes I would, but I know that it is true.

Socrates:

How do you know?

Plato:

Because of the powerful feelings I’ve felt in prayer and exercising faith throughout my life.

Socrates:

So you believe that the powerful feelings that you feel come from God?

Plato:

Yes, absolutely they do, and you know it.

Socrates:

On a scale of 1 to 100, how confident are you that those feelings come from God

Plato:

100% certain.

Socrates:

Have you ever met a devout person of a different faith who was also sure that they have received spiritual answers from God?

Plato:

Definitely, but God gives his light to every man, woman, and child. There is truth in all religions.

Socrates:

Sure thing. Do you believe that you belong to the one true church?

Plato:

Yes.

Socrates:

How do you know?

Plato:

Those spiritual confirmations I’ve had are so powerful that I cannot deny that this is the true church.

Socrates:

What if you met a Catholic nun who had prayed, had a miraculous spiritual experience, and told you that she knows that the Catholic church is the one true church? If you’ve both had the same level of powerful spiritual experience, how do you know that the Catholic church is not the one true church?

Plato:

Well, I don’t know the meaning of all things, but I rely on my faith, and this Church has given me so much.

Socrates:

What is faith? From what I remember, the definition is something like this: faith is the hope for things not seen, which are true?

Plato:

Yes. That’s correct.

Socrates:

So you believe that the LDS church is the one true church, but if your evidence is not any different from the Catholic nun’s evidence, how can you be sure that the Catholic church isn’t the one true church?

Plato:

Well, as the prophets say, we have to choose to believe in the Restored gospel.

Socrates:

If you’re choosing to believe, rather than being compelled to believe because of evidence, can you really say that you are 100% confident in your belief that the LDS church is the one true church?

Plato:

I choose to be 100% confident.

Socrates:

Are you 100% confident that the policy released last November excluding gay couples and their children from the Church came from God? Is there any probability that the policy came from the minds of the leaders?

Plato:

Well, sometimes the leaders speak as men, and sometimes they speak on behalf of God. Don’t let the weaknesses of men drive you away from the Church.

Socrates:

I think this is the key issue for me. I have struggled with the Church’s teachings about LGBT people for years. I’ve explored the scientific research on LGBT issues, and three things are abundantly clear: 1. Being LGBT is not a choice. 2. If you are LGBT, falling in love and pursuing relationships is drastically better for your health than remaining celibate your whole life. 3. Children who are raised by LGBT parents have exactly the same outcomes when it comes to health, happiness, social adjustment, success in life, and whether they themselves are LGBT. According to all of the data and evidence, there is nothing wrong with being LGBT and pursuing relationships and family.

So, after pain and misery as a ward clerk living in fear of the possibility that I’d have to participate in disciplinary councils for LGBT members of my ward, I had to know if the Church’s stance on LGBT issues came from God or just from the minds of human men.

I read the Church’s essay on Race and the Priesthood. In the essay, they seem to imply that the Priesthood ban never came from God but was the result of racism. They encourage us to be patient with leaders who lived at a time with different racial dynamics.

If the policies and teachings of the prophets were totally wrong on the profoundly important issue of race for over 100 years, is there a probability that the leaders are wrong about LGBT people now? The answer is, yes, there is definitely a probability that in the future there will be an essay disavowing what present-day leaders taught about LGBT people. I’ll put down five bucks and bet that the Church disavows its stance on LGBT people sometime before 2050.

I struggled with this issue for multiple years. I was willing to do hard things for the Church, but I wasn’t willing to do things that were against my conscience. I prayed, I fasted, I talked with my wife, with my parents, and with my siblings. It was brutal. I had to know if this teaching came from God.

I found the CES Letter and learned about some true historical facts. I verified that they were true by looking at the sources and learned that even active LDS scholars admit that these things are true. And in thirty minutes, my faith disappeared. Bam. It was terrifyingly amusing. I couldn’t believe that I had been deceived my whole life. The whole thing was made up. Wow. In that moment, I knew that telling my friends and family would lead to all kinds of pain and agony for them and for me. But I knew that I had to live according to the truth I’d found. I showed my wife, and she was blown away too. We resolved that day not to attend church anymore on Sundays.

Plato:

Well, you can let go of the Church, but don’t let go of God. How can you possibly let go of God?

Socrates:

That was a big bummer. When I realized how much I believed in the Book of Mormon despite the fact that it was totally made up, I realized that I couldn’t trust any of my spiritual feelings to tell me what was true. I really believed Joseph Smith’s story. I had profound experiences singing hymns about that guy. I found out that the villains of my childhood, like Emma Smith and William Law, were the good guys, and that the heroes, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were pretty terrible people. If I could be so wrong about Joseph Smith, am I wrong about God?

Plato:

Well, then where do these spiritual experiences come from if not from God?

Socrates:

I wish they came from God. I love the idea of a Heavenly Father who loves us. It is awesome, and I wish it were real. However, like I said before, the universe is what it is, and I can’t change it. I think that there is a very high probability that the spiritual experiences we’re talking about are generated by the brain and nervous system.

Plato:

Where did everything come from if not from God?

Socrates:

There is a lot of evidence that our universe began 15 billion years ago, but no one knows exactly why it happened or how.

Plato:

You know why. It was God who created the universe.

Socrates:

I believe you have two pieces of evidence for that: 1. A series of scriptural writings written by a desert dwelling tribe that has been passed down for the past few thousand years. 2. The feelings you have when you read these writings.

I don’t think that those two pieces of evidence are sufficient. If we put that kind of weight in scriptural writings that are a few thousand years old, then how can you say that it wasn’t Brahma of Hinduism who created the universe, or Zeus from Olympus? Why is your religion’s text more relevant than the others?

My guess is that it’s because your religion is not simply a list of claims to be analyzed objectively. Your religion is your tribe, your language, and your identity. Sometimes I wish I could still be part of the Mormon tribe the same way secular Jews are part of Judaism. But that’s ok. I’m happy to join the beautiful human family and to feel a connection to the cosmos that I never felt before.

I absolutely love knowing that we emerged from microbes and muck. I love recognizing that chimpanzees and gorillas are our cousins. We primates all descended from a tree shrew, sort of like a squirrel, that survived the asteroid impact 65 million years ago. To the absolute best of our ability to determine, this strange story about evolution and chemistry is the absolute truth about how we got here. I love knowing that our ancestors, the original human beings, came from Africa. I love realizing that single-celled life started on this planet 4 billion years ago according to the evidence we have. What an absolute miracle life is! Somehow, a chemical reaction copied itself, and the copies made copies, and so on. Each copy was slightly different than the last. Some of the kinds of copies stopped copying. Some continued. We’re simply the last in a long chain of copies that kept on copying. And in this way I feel this beautiful connection with all living things. I am not more important than a tree. We are both microscopic and insignificant to the rest of the universe. That tree and I exist as part of the thin film of life that covers a tiny speck of dust in the cosmos. And the carbon in my body and the carbon in the tree, where did it come from? It came from a supernova. From the evidence we’ve gathered about matter, it appears that everything heavier than the two lightest atoms, hydrogen and helium, was forged in the cores of stars. And the only way those atoms enter the rest of the universe is for those stars to explode and share the beautiful gems of matter that they’ve created. I love that I don’t have to do any sort of apologetic somersaults to explain these things like I used to have to do with my religion. These things are what the evidence shows, and even if we want nature to be different, nature does not care, she is what she is. And I love it.

Plato:

Then what is the purpose of your life if there is no God, and we’re not much better than a tree?

Socrates:

If it is true that the world’s religions were generated by human beings, whether intentionally or not, then the purposes of life that religions have given us were also generated by human beings. So, rather than accept the ideas created by a tribe of desert dwellers a few thousand years ago, I’m going to create my own purpose. As Carl Sagan once said, we long for our parents to take care of us, to save us from our childish mistakes, and give us a purpose. But, despite much self-deception, no such purpose is evident. The purpose of our lives and of our fragile planet is determined then only by our own wisdom and courage. We are the stewards of life’s meaning.

I think that the purpose I want for my life is to reduce the suffering of other people and animals as much as I can.

I wish I could reduce your suffering caused by my faith transition. I want you to be happy. I’ll try to reduce your suffering as much as I can by letting you know that I love you. I really do.

Plato:

Well, good talk. I’m glad to see that you’ve found purpose. I’m still really worried about you, and even though we don’t see things the same way, I’m glad you’re happy. Know that you’re always welcome back at Church.