Survivor Ghost Island has arrived! Every week, Parade’s Mike Bloom will bring you interviews with the castaway most recently voted off of the island.

Order and chaos are two separate but equal forces in the game of Survivor. Depending on your position in the game, you could find yourself either sending praise to the orderly omnipotence to maintain your dominance over your alliance or genuflecting at the altar of chaos, desperate for a chance to get off of the bottom. Brendan Shapiro got a chance at both Survivor sects over his twelve days in Fiji. He figuratively and literally led the Malolo tribe until a swap found him on the outside looking in of a 5-4 split. And despite a last-minute idol power play from his closest ally, Michael Yerger, it wasn’t enough to keep the business owner turned gym teacher from ending his rope climb to the million dollars and tumbling to the mat below.

Brendan entered the game as the oldest male, and the Malolo tribe hoped that age brought wisdom when they voted him as their tribe leader for the first challenge based solely on initial impressions. Luckily, both the choice of the tribe to elect Brendan and the choices Brendan made for the challenge proved to be correct, as they were able to start off on the right foot by winning a shelter building kit, fishing gear, 20 eggs, and a flint. But that foot promptly lost its shoe, much like Jacob Derwin’s in the first day of the game. Malolo lost the first Immunity Challenge, and the tribe came together to get rid of Stephanie Gonzalez, who was seen as less controllable than other target Donathan Hurley. Though Stephanie Johnson was shown to be the one pulling strings behind the vote, Gonzalez ignored her namesake and instead put Brendan on blast, allegedly saying, “One lion, seven sheep,” as her torch was being snuffed. In some circumstances, this comment would cause said sheep to get lion meat on the brain. Luckily for Brendan, another prime cut of protein was in front of them in the form of Jacob, returning from Ghost Island. He feigned finding an idol during his exile, but Brendan was quick to call the music teacher out on his lack of ghost note. As a result, when Malolo lost the next challenge as well, it was an easy choice, and Brendan’s seat of power had yet to be challenged.

Perhaps this is a reason why the Survivor gods shook things up the way they did, if Kellyn Bechtold’s theories of fate are to be true. To mark the end of their first week in the game, the tribes got shuffled up. Brendan remained in Malolo with two of his closest allies in Stephanie and Michael, along with Jenna Bowman. But five foreigners had suddenly entered his kingdom, including Kellyn, Sebastian Noel, Desiree Afuye, Chelsea Townsend, and most vocally Bradley Kleihege. Though Bradley grimaced at the change of conditions that came from moving camps, his smile never dropped, ecstatic that the former Naviti members had the numbers and would hopefully hold strong. The former Malolo quartet was now singing the blues, but their madcap idol hunting paid off when Michael laid hands on one of James Clement’s infamous unplayed idols from Survivor: China. Brendan and Sebastian were unable to bring it to the rim in the final part of the Immunity Challenge on Day 12, allowing Naviti to pull off a great come-from-behind victory and sending the new Malolo to Tribal Council for the first time. That night, the fire surrounding them perhaps lit the spirit of the young real estate agent, as Michael pulled out the idol and claimed that his prized possession had double its original power, allowing him to save two people. As such, the former Malolos all began to make the plea to Sebastian and Chelsea to bite the apple while simultaneously prosecuting lawyer-to-be Bradley for being the figurehead of his alliance. Before the votes were read, Michael and Brendan figured that Stephanie would be the one getting the votes and chose to save her with the idol. But, much like the original holder of the block of wood, they were blindsided. The former Naviti members had prepared for an idol-based worst case scenario and put their votes onto Brendan, assuming the others would think they’d vote for one of the women to keep physical strength in the tribe. And so, through three near-straight Tribal Councils, Brendan went from predator to prey.

Now out of the game, Brendan talks with me about how his game changed in being elected leader for the first challenge, his most substantial relationships pre- and post-swap, and what inspiring words he can give to those who have applied for the show as many times as he had.

Before Tribal Council, we saw you briefly tell Michael you thought you would be getting the former Naviti votes. But once you get there and Michael believes that he should play the idol on Stephanie, you seem to nod approvingly. At that point, did you have any inclination that it could still be you?

I thought it was me the whole time. That whole day, the former Naviti folks were telegraphing, in my opinion, that they were going to go Stephanie, which made me believe that it was not going to be Stephanie. (Laughs.) I had a heart-to-heart with Kellyn, who is a lovely person and super empathetic. She wears her heart on her sleeve. I told her that the next day was my birthday, which it was. And even though I was on the wrong side of the numbers, I hoped I would be playing Survivor on my birthday. I saw a tear come to her eye, and she turned away quickly and hoped that I didn’t notice. For me, that was all the confirmation I needed. So you don’t see any of this in the edit, but I went to Michael and was like, “Dude, it’s me and here’s how I know it. Kellyn just tipped me off. They’re going to vote for me.” And he just had a hard time believing they were going to vote for one of the guys. That was a conversation we had maybe an hour before Tribal Council. Then you see the scene where we’re on the beach where Michael revealed he had the idol and I had to pretend that I didn’t already know.

Then we were off to Tribal Council. We’re sitting on the stumps, and I was just hoping against hope that I had convinced Michael. Right before he got up to vote, he said, “I think it’s Steph.” In light of the conversation we had prior, I hoped and guessed maybe he had overheard a conversation among the Naviti folks or had some new information that was confirming his suspicions. I don’t think there was any changing his mind at that point; I just hoped he knew something that I didn’t. Unfortunately for me, my gut instinct was right on that one. I describe it like being on a train track and watching the train coming at you from a mile away, and you just can’t get off the track. It was a hard thing to live and certainly a hard thing to watch all over again.

Did you ever think about asking Michael for the idol as an early birthday gift?

No. It’s funny how that all worked. Maybe that would have been a good plan. He put his hands on it first, so it was his, and that was that. I hoped it would go the right way for us. The reality is, if it had and he played it on me, Bradley goes home and the whole game changes. The whole narrative changes because you have 4-4 in the new Malolo camp and it’s a whole new game. And for that matter, if Kellyn had to stay at Ghost Island for the vote, as it happened in the first three votes, you’re looking at a 4-4 [split]. So there are lots of different ways it could have gone, but I’ve decided that’s not a game I should play, the “coulda woulda shoulda.” Because it will just drive me crazy.

Exactly, a man can go mad thinking about every single thing he possibly could have done out there.

Look, I could have won that challenge for us, and then I’m not at Tribal Council. There are a million different ways it could go. (Laughs.) At this point, whatever happened happened, and I just got to move forward.

You mentioned Bradley, and your group went in on him at Tribal Council as being the leader. Was that something you perceived, or did you paint a narrative just to get Sebastian and Chelsea on your side?

Our perception was that Bradley was the leader with Kellyn second in charge and the other three were just happy to follow along because it meant they weren’t going to go anywhere. God, I would have paid anything to be at the other camp where it was chaos. Be that as it may, it appeared to be Bradley and Kellyn leading things. Watching it back, it looks like it’s equal parts Kellyn and Bradley, whereas, at the time, we believed it was more Bradley than Kellyn. And Bradley was more out front; I think Kellyn was playing a game where she was calling the shots but not taking the heat for doing it. Which good on her, that’s what you want to do out there. But Bradley certainly seemed in charge, whether it was how they were going to interact with us at camp or what we were going to eat or when we were going to eat. He very much took that leadership role. And I was happy to let him do it because I was hoping he would lead his way out of [the game]. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out for me. (Laughs.)

You spoke about the chaos that was going on at the other camp. In your Day After video, you talked about how you went from trying to mitigate disorder in the first week (hence your “kumbaya” statements) to wishing for chaos in the second. How difficult is it to deal with those pulling forces in the game?

I didn’t regard it as difficult. You just kind of feel your way through it, and I think that most of the people out there can feel their way through it. It wasn’t even my gears were grinding, I just got a gut feel out there. In those first three days, what the viewer didn’t see is that it looked like it was going to be Donathan or Gonzalez. In reality, up until about an hour before Tribal Council, Jenna was in deep trouble. The plan was for everybody but Jenna and Steph to vote for Jenna. And I’m thinking, “You know what? You do this, and then Johnson is going to have her biggest ally blindsided. She’s going to feel blindsided, and it’s going to be scorched earth when we get back. Chaos.” At that point, I was looked at as the leader, and I didn’t want to be in a situation where people were unhappy. So we changed it to Gonzalez. It stinks for Gonzalez because I think she’s a hell of a player. But someone’s going to get the short end of the stick, and unfortunately, she got it. But I think it created a situation where we got back to camp, and everybody was on the same page, which is what I needed at that time. Gonzalez, to her credit, sniffed it out. She called me the lion in front of everybody, and I was lucky enough where she knew she was calling me the lion and I knew she was calling me the lion, there were some folks who thought maybe she was talking about somebody different. So I was able to shake it off. It was a moment that scared me for a minute, but it ended up being okay.

Let’s talk about your leadership in the old Malolo. You get appointed the leader in the first challenge, and that segues into you controlling the votes that led to Gonzalez’s lion comment. Was that something you originally intended on doing or did that change based on how the first few days went?

Before I got on the plane to go, I had no design to be the leader. Nobody wants to be that because that’s the death knell in Survivor. But we got there, and I realized I was the oldest person in our tribe and the oldest man by fifteen years. As we stood on the mat trying to decide who was going to be the leader, I knew that shrinking away from it at a certain point was going to make me conspicuous in a way I didn’t want to be. If it had been a different group of people, I would have gladly let somebody else take the mantle. I think with the group we had, I would have stood out for not taking it. So I felt it was something I had to do at the moment, but it was a split-second decision.

Let’s talk about your relationships with a few of these Malolos. It’s safe to say Michael was your “ride or die” in the game. Ironically enough, it felt like a teacher and student, even though you didn’t realize he was recently in high school! How did that alliance develop?

Survivor’s funny, because a lot of it comes down to luck. A lot of it is just who happens to take on what task right when you hit the beach. Michael and I built the shelter; we started to hammer nails in the much-talked-about shelter. So we just spent time together. He and I have very similar outlooks on things, despite the fact that he’s 18. By the way, he told us he was about to turn 24, and if he said he was 28, I would have believed it. The guy is incredible; he really is, I think the world of him. I call him the Survivor prodigy because he can do it all. He’s strategic, he’s athletic, and he’s social, and I think you’re starting to see it in the edit. I hope that he’ll go far and you’ll continue to see that. So we just got along. I didn’t find out he was 18 until I got home, seven weeks after we started. I have a son who’s 18 months younger than Michael, so it blows my mind a little bit. I think my son has similar qualities that I never expected to see someone out there like that. We just hit it off right away. I felt older the whole time, but to me, it didn’t feel like older brother/little brother. It just felt like two guys going after it. He was my number one out there, and I loved every minute of playing with him. I wish it worked out better, but he’s great. I don’t regret teaming up with him for a second.

How much did you know about his “I can save two people” idol bluff before he revealed it at Tribal Council?

I knew almost all of the plan. The part Michael deserves full credit for is the “two people” bit. He wanted to gauge reactions to two names, not one. He came up with that on his own, and I think it was a really crafty play. We had talked through the fact that we were going to try to throw a bunch of noise at Sea Bass and Chelsea and hopefully get one of them to flip. But we kind of knew deep down it wasn’t going to work. We figured, “What the hell, why not try? Let’s create a panic and see if we can inspire them to jump.” When that didn’t happen, the plan was to play the idol in the way he did. I just didn’t know he was going to do the whole “this is good for two people” bit.

You mentioned Stephanie Johnson, and you two were the only parents on old Malolo. Did that help foster a relationship between you two?

Absolutely. Stephanie and I are different in certain ways, but we’re really similar in the way we treat people and regard our families. She was my “sunrise buddy.” We’d wake up–I was awake all the time, but she’d wake up–and watch the sun come up. We’d talk about the game of course, but mostly we talked about life. So we had a bond that was different from what I had with anybody out there. She’s a great friend and a great person. It’s fun to watch her out because I think she’s playing a hell of a game and the edit is reflecting that.

Before the swap, who else were you close with?

Before the swap, I felt like I was in a great position. One of the things the edit doesn’t pick up was that Laurel and I were tight. I picked her first for that opening challenge, but she and I were really close. She trusted me and brought me information, and I brought her information. We had a really solid relationship. I was close with James and Donathan. Really everybody! The one person I felt I had a surface-level relationship with, but it never got too deep, was Jacob, and that’s because it all happened so fast. He was out of the gate playing hard and was away a lot. Like I told you earlier, sometimes you’re setting up camp, and somebody is doing something else. We were never really doing the same stuff. But I got to know Jacob well after the game, and he’s a great guy, and I wish I got to know him better in the game. I feel like I had strong relationships with everybody out there in the old Malolo. I remember saying in an interview hours before the swap, “You know, old Malolo is 0-2. But I feel like I’m 2-0 because things are going exactly the way I want them to. I’m in a good spot with everybody, and I’m not sure if anybody knows I’m in a good spot with everybody. So that’s a good place to be.”

Famous last words! I want to close with a patented Brendan Shapiro pep talk. You were someone who nearly got on the show back in the show’s early days, and it’s something you’ve been working on incessantly since then. What are some words of wisdom you can give to other applicants out there who have also gotten passed over several times?

I don’t know if this would qualify as a pep talk. But my insight is that there’s no getting into the mind of Survivor casting people. It may be that you’re the perfect person for it, but it’s not the perfect season for you. Maybe you’re just not ready. So keep on trying to crack that nut. I’m sure that I got better and smarter, better at telling stories and smarter in game sense, as the years went on than when I started. Hard work isn’t always rewarded in the immediate term, but usually good things happen when you work hard and try at something for a long time. For me, they did. If that’s inspiration for anybody, I was told no fifteen times before I was told yes. Bear that in mind the next time you get rejected.

See, I don’t know what Bradley’s talking about. That sounds like a perfectly fine pep talk to me!

Thank you, I appreciate that. He doesn’t come from a teams sports background, that’s not his thing, it’s okay. Bradley and I are cool; he’s a friend of mine. Inside the game, I wanted to smash him, but outside the game, it’s fine.