Post by Gavin Andresen

Fair enough, I'll try to find time in the next month or three to write up

1) Fee-supported with very large blocks containing lots of tiny-fee

transactions

2) Proof-of-idle supported (I wish Tadge Dryja would publish his

proof-of-idle idea....)

3) Fees purely as transaction-spam-prevention measure, chain security via

alternative consensus algorithm (in this scenario there is very little

mining).

4) Fee supported with small blocks containing high-fee transactions

Fair enough, I'll try to find time in the next month or three to write up1) Fee-supported with very large blocks containing lots of tiny-feetransactions2) Proof-of-idle supported (I wish Tadge Dryja would publish hisproof-of-idle idea....)3) Fees purely as transaction-spam-prevention measure, chain security viaalternative consensus algorithm (in this scenario there is very littlemining).4) Fee supported with small blocks containing high-fee transactions

Post by Gavin Andresen

coins to/from sidechains.

Would that be helpful, or do you have some reason for thinking that we

should pick just one and focus all of our efforts on making that one

scenario happen?

I always think it is better, when possible, not to "bet on one horse."

coins to/from sidechains.Would that be helpful, or do you have some reason for thinking that weshould pick just one and focus all of our efforts on making that onescenario happen?I always think it is better, when possible, not to "bet on one horse."

Post by Gavin Andresen

The reason I am asking that is, there seems to be no consensus among

core developers on how Bitcoin can work without miner subsidy. How it

*will* work is another question.

The reason I am asking that is, there seems to be no consensus amongcore developers on how Bitcoin can work without miner subsidy. How it*will* work is another question.

Post by Gavin Andresen

With POW, a new node only needs to know the genesis block (and network

rules) to fully determine which of two chains is the strongest.

With POW, a new node only needs to know the genesis block (and networkrules) to fully determine which of two chains is the strongest.

Post by Gavin Andresen

An example would

be tx_size = MAX( real_size >> 1, real_size + 4*utxo_created_size -

3*utxo_consumed_size).

An example wouldbe tx_size = MAX( real_size >> 1, real_size + 4*utxo_created_size -3*utxo_consumed_size).

Post by Gavin Andresen

To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tps

is too low"

To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tpsis too low"

Post by Gavin Andresen

Personally, for privacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in

Personally, for privacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in

Post by Gavin Andresen

To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tps

is too low"

For interbank trading that would maybe enough but I don't know.

I'm not a developer but as a (former) user and computer scientist I'm

also asking myself what is the core of the problem? Personally, for

privacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in the blockchain for

each pizza. And why should this expense be good for trivial things of

everyday life?

If one encounters the block boundary, he or she will do more effort or

give up. I'm thinking most people will give up because their

transactions are not really economical. It is much better for them to

use third-partys (or another payment system).

And that's where we are at the heart of the problem. The Bitcoin

third-party economy. With few exceptions this is pure horror. More worse

than any used car dealer. And the community just waits that things get

better. But that will never happen of its own accord. We are living in a

Wild West Town. So we need a Sheriff and many other things.

We need a small but good functioning economy around the blockchain. To

create one, we have to accept a few unpleasant truths. I do not know if

the community is ready for it.

Nevertheless, I know that some companies do a good job. But they have to

prevail against their dishonest competitors.

People take advantage of the blockchain, because they no longer trust

anyone. But this will not scale in the long run.

- oliver

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For interbank trading that would maybe enough but I don't know.I'm not a developer but as a (former) user and computer scientist I'malso asking myself what is the core of the problem? Personally, forprivacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in the blockchain foreach pizza. And why should this expense be good for trivial things ofeveryday life?If one encounters the block boundary, he or she will do more effort orgive up. I'm thinking most people will give up because theirtransactions are not really economical. It is much better for them touse third-partys (or another payment system).And that's where we are at the heart of the problem. The Bitcointhird-party economy. With few exceptions this is pure horror. More worsethan any used car dealer. And the community just waits that things getbetter. But that will never happen of its own accord. We are living in aWild West Town. So we need a Sheriff and many other things.We need a small but good functioning economy around the blockchain. Tocreate one, we have to accept a few unpleasant truths. I do not know ifthe community is ready for it.Nevertheless, I know that some companies do a good job. But they have toprevail against their dishonest competitors.People take advantage of the blockchain, because they no longer trustanyone. But this will not scale in the long run.- oliver------------------------------------------------------------------------------One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-CloudWidest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applicationsPerformance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable InsightsDeep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y_______________________________________________Bitcoin-development mailing listhttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions toTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visithttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmentor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' toYou can reach the person managing the list atWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."1. Re: Long-term mining incentives (Thomas Voegtlin)2. Re: Long-term mining incentives (Tier Nolan)3. Re: Long-term mining incentives (Alex Mizrahi)4. Re: Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step function (TierNolan)5. Re: Block Size Increase (Oliver Egginger)6. Re: Block Size Increase (Angel Leon)---------- Forwarded message ----------Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:49:13 +0200Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Long-term mining incentivesmovingSorry if I did not make myself clear. It is not about betting on onesingle horse, or about making one particular scenario happen. It is notabout predicting whether something else will replace PoW in the future,and I am in no way asking you to focus your efforts in one particulardirection at the expenses of others. Various directions will be exploredby various people, and that's great.I am talking about what we know today. I would like an answer to thefollowing question: Do we have a reason to believe that Bitcoin can workin the long run, without involving technologies that have not beeninvented yet? Is there a single scenario that we know could work?Exotic and unproven technologies are not an answer to that question. Thereference scenario should be as boring as possible, and as verifiable aspossible. I am not asking what you think is the most likely to happen,but what is the most likely to work, given the knowledge we have today.If I was asking: "Can we send humans to the moon by 2100?", I guess youranswer would be: "Yes we can, because it has been done in the past withchemical rockets, and we know how to build them". You would probably notuse a space elevator in your answer.The reason I am asking that is, there seems to be no consensus amongcore developers on how Bitcoin can work without miner subsidy. How it*will* work is another question.---------- Forwarded message ----------Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:14:06 +0100Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Long-term mining incentivesThe position seems to be that it will continue to work for the time being,so there is still time for more research.Proof of stake has problems with handling long term reversals. The mainproposal is to slightly weaken the security requirements.With POW, a new node only needs to know the genesis block (and networkrules) to fully determine which of two chains is the strongest.Penalties for abusing POS inherently create a time horizon. A suggestedPOS security model would assume that a full node is a node that resyncswith the network regularly (every N blocks). N would be depend on thenetwork rules of the coin.The alternative is that 51% of the holders of coins at the genesis blockcan rewrite the entire chain. The genesis block might not be the firstblock, a POS coin might still use POW for minting.https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/---------- Forwarded message ----------Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:31:47 +0300Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Long-term mining incentivesBut this matters if a new node has access to the globally strongest chain.If attacker is able to block connections to legitimate nodes, a new nodewill happily accept attacker's chain.So PoW, by itself, doesn't give strong security guarantees. This problemis so fundamental people avoid talking about it.In practice, Bitcoin already embraces "weak subjectivity" e.g. in form ofcheckpoints embedded into the source code. So it's hard to take PoW puristsseriously.---------- Forwarded message ----------Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:43:08 +0100Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB stepfunctionThis could be implemented as a soft fork too.* 1MB hard size limit* 900kB soft limitS = block sizeU = UTXO_adjusted_size = S + 4 * outputs - 3 * inputsA block is valid if S < 1MB and U < 1MBA 250 byte transaction with 2 inputs and 2 outputs would have an adjustedsize of 252 bytes.The memory pool could be sorted by fee per adjusted_size.Coin selection could be adjusted so it tries to have at least 2 inputswhen creating transactions, unless the input is worth more than a threshold(say 0.001 BTC).This is a pretty weak incentive, especially if the block size isincreased. Maybe it will cause a "nudge"---------- Forwarded message ----------Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:37:17 +0200Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size IncreaseFor interbank trading that would maybe enough but I don't know.I'm not a developer but as a (former) user and computer scientist I'malso asking myself what is the core of the problem? Personally, forprivacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in the blockchain foreach pizza. And why should this expense be good for trivial things ofeveryday life?If one encounters the block boundary, he or she will do more effort orgive up. I'm thinking most people will give up because theirtransactions are not really economical. It is much better for them touse third-partys (or another payment system).And that's where we are at the heart of the problem. The Bitcointhird-party economy. With few exceptions this is pure horror. More worsethan any used car dealer. And the community just waits that things getbetter. But that will never happen of its own accord. We are living in aWild West Town. So we need a Sheriff and many other things.We need a small but good functioning economy around the blockchain. Tocreate one, we have to accept a few unpleasant truths. I do not know ifthe community is ready for it.Nevertheless, I know that some companies do a good job. But they have toprevail against their dishonest competitors.People take advantage of the blockchain, because they no longer trustanyone. But this will not scale in the long run.- oliver---------- Forwarded message ----------Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 07:25:47 -0400Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increasethe blockchain for each pizza. And why should this expense be good fortrivial things of everyday life?Then what's the point?Isn't this supposed to be an Open transactional network, it doesn't matterif you don't want that, what matters is what people want to do with it, andthere's nothing you can do to stop someone from opening a wallet and buyinga pizza with it, except the core of the problem you ask yourself about,which is, the minute this goes mainstream and people get their wallets outthe whole thing will collapse, regardless of what you want the blockchainfor.Why talk about the billions of unbanked and all the romantic vision if youcan't let them use their money however they want in a decentralizedfashion. Otherwise let's just go back to centralized banking because theminute you want to put things off chain, you need an organization that willneed to respond to government regulation and that's the end for thebillions of unbanked to be part of the network.http://twitter.com/gubatron------------------------------------------------------------------------------One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-CloudWidest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applicationsPerformance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable InsightsDeep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y_______________________________________________Bitcoin-development mailing listhttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development