teppy



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Full MemberActivity: 184Merit: 101 Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 30, 2010, 04:28:29 PM #1 I've adopted the following in Dragon's Tale - is there some more accepted convention? Should we come up with some standard?



0.001 Bitcoin : "1 Bitmill" or "1 BTM"

0.000001 Bitcoin : "1 Bitmicron" or "1 BTU"



Mill seems ok, because mills are used to specify tax rates (1 mill == 1/1000th of the value of an asset.)



I don't really care for the Bitmicron abbreviation because I always read it as a British Thermal Unit, and the Greek mu symbol is hard to type. Furthermore, microns are a unit of length.



Thoughts? Dragon's Tale is the longest running Bitcoin enterprise in the world.

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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1000 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 31, 2010, 02:59:15 AM #5 I like the idea I saw in another thread of calling a very small division (say .0001 bitcoin) a Satoshi. This honors the founder in a similar way that US$ honors the founders & important presidents by putting their images upon currency; such as calling the $100 bill graced by Ben Franklin a "benjamin". Also, those same founders are roughly ranked in the order of significance(to the founders of the federal reserve) by putting the most favored upon the lowest denomination. "The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."



- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'

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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1000 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 31, 2010, 04:38:36 PM #8 Quote from: kiba on December 31, 2010, 04:27:24 AM Ok, we will have 0.00000001 BTC a satoshi?



No, that unit is too small to be used in any normal context within my lifetime. No, that unit is too small to be used in any normal context within my lifetime. "The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."



- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'

em3rgentOrdr



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youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin







Sr. MemberActivity: 434Merit: 250youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 31, 2010, 05:08:16 PM #9 LOL...I accidentally read this post's title as "Terminology for Fractional-Reserve Bitcoins" and thought why would anyone want that? But I suppose implementing FR-bitcoins is entirely doable, and there may be reasons why private bitcoin lenders/banks would engage in such activity. "We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.



Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."

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NewbieActivity: 2Merit: 0 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 31, 2010, 09:27:42 PM #10



1.0 BTC

0.01 cBTC

0.001 mBTC

0.000001 μBTC - hard to type mu, again. Could just cheat sometimes & write uBTC? :]

0.00000001 sBTC - satoshi :D

...



What's considered the standard unit range?



I'm imagining common usage with values like: 29.99 BTC, 2.50 BTC, 50 cBTC



I imagine mBTC will be a very rarely used low fractional.

I can't see us going much lower than that in normal usage.

But if necessary I imagine we'd just use decimal rather than using μ or s. (Although for the sake of a standard I like having them, & I think the 'satoshi' is a wonderful idea) Use standard metric prefixes 1.0 BTC0.01 cBTC0.001 mBTC0.000001 μBTC -0.00000001 sBTC -...What's considered the standard unit range?I'm imagining common usage with values like: 29.99 BTC, 2.50 BTC, 50 cBTCI imagine mBTC will be a very rarely used low fractional.I can't see us going much lower than that in normal usage.But if necessary I imagine we'd just use decimal rather than using μ or s. (Although for the sake of a standard I like having them, & I think the '' is a wonderful idea)

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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1000 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 31, 2010, 10:56:33 PM #11 Quote from: ProPuke on December 31, 2010, 09:27:42 PM



Use standard metric prefixes

Hell, no. Metric sucks. Hell, no. Metric sucks. "The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."



- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'

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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1000 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins December 31, 2010, 11:08:30 PM #13 Quote from: kiba on December 31, 2010, 10:59:58 PM Why does metric sucks?



It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...



1 unit note

2 unit note

4 unit note

8

16

32

and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages. It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...1 unit note2 unit note4 unit note1632and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages. "The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."



- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'

nanotube



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Hero MemberActivity: 482Merit: 500 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins January 01, 2011, 11:40:02 PM #14 Quote from: creighto on December 31, 2010, 11:08:30 PM Quote from: kiba on December 31, 2010, 10:59:58 PM Why does metric sucks?



It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...



1 unit note

2 unit note

4 unit note

8

16

32

and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...1 unit note2 unit note4 unit note1632and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

i smell bs. the primary number system in common use is decimal, and multiplying/dividing by powers of 10 is the easiest thing to do. here's an experiment: divide 100000 by 32 in your head, quick! yea, thought so, not so easy is it? now divide it by 100? pretty instant, no?



if you think i'm cheating by using powers of 10 for the initial number... how about dividing 1048576 by 32 in your head? now how about by 100? unless you're a coder used to dealing in powers of 2, you're not going to produce the result 1048576/32 instantly in your head. i smell bs. the primary number system in common use is decimal, and multiplying/dividing by powers of 10 is the easiest thing to do. here's an experiment: divide 100000 by 32 in your head, quick! yea, thought so, not so easy is it? now divide it by 100? pretty instant, no?if you think i'm cheating by using powers of 10 for the initial number... how about dividing 1048576 by 32 in your head? now how about by 100? unless you're a coder used to dealing in powers of 2, you're not going to produce the result 1048576/32 instantly in your head.

Join #bitcoin-otc - an over-the-counter trading market.

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My trust rating: Join #bitcoin-market on freenode for real-time market updates.Join #bitcoin-otc - an over-the-counter trading market. http://bitcoin-otc.com OTC web of trust: http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php My trust rating: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=nanotube

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NewbieActivity: 2Merit: 0 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins January 02, 2011, 02:27:18 AM #16 Quote from: creighto on December 31, 2010, 11:08:30 PM Quote from: kiba on December 31, 2010, 10:59:58 PM Why does metric sucks?



It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...



1 unit note

2 unit note

4 unit note

8

16

32

and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...1 unit note2 unit note4 unit note1632and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

What you are referring to seems to be more of a coinage system, where as what teppy was asking about was a decimalisation system. These are slightly different concepts.



For instance if we wanted to represent

2500 bytes

we would say

2.5kB*

not present it in its binary form of

1x2048 1x256 1x128 1x64 1x4



Which is easier for your brain to process?



(Yes, computer units are metric. You see them every day. This is not some scary new system)



The american standard has not evolved. It begun with imperial measurements & while most of the rest of the world converted over to the metric standard america did not.

Saying something should be some way because that's how it is in america is not a persuasive argument. It comes across as more a case of patriotism.

Also I'm pretty sure you guys still count in base 10, not base 2, so that doesn't really make sense anyway.



Random fact: The only three countries that have not officially adopted the metric system are america, burma, liberia (with america being the only industrialised)

(Where "officially" means declared adoption by the government as the standard, not sole use within the country)



*I'm going by the standard that there are 1000 bytes to a kilobyte & not 1024 for the sake of clarity (There are actually 2 separate measuring systems for file sizes) What you are referring to seems to be more of a coinage system, where as what teppy was asking about was a decimalisation system. These are slightly different concepts.For instance if we wanted to representwe would saynot present it in its binary form ofWhich is easier for your brain to process?(Yes, computer units are metric. You see them every day. This is not some scary new system)The american standard has not evolved. It begun with imperial measurements & while most of the rest of the world converted over to the metric standard america did not.Saying something should be some way because that's how it is in america is not a persuasive argument. It comes across as more a case of patriotism.Also I'm pretty sure you guys still count in base 10, not base 2, so that doesn't really make sense anyway.Random fact: The only three countries that have not officially adopted the metric system are america, burma, liberia (with america being the only industrialised)(Where "officially" means declared adoption by the government as the standard, not sole use within the country)

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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1000 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins January 03, 2011, 05:09:05 AM #17 Quote from: ProPuke on January 02, 2011, 02:27:18 AM Quote from: creighto on December 31, 2010, 11:08:30 PM Quote from: kiba on December 31, 2010, 10:59:58 PM Why does metric sucks?



It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...



1 unit note

2 unit note

4 unit note

8

16

32

and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...1 unit note2 unit note4 unit note1632and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

What you are referring to seems to be more of a coinage system, where as what teppy was asking about was a decimalisation system. These are slightly different concepts.



What you are referring to seems to be more of a coinage system, where as what teppy was asking about was a decimalisation system. These are slightly different concepts.

True. So consider it a recommendation over a named decimalisation system. There is no reason that we must name by decimals, but we must have some kind of naming system or one will develop anyway.



Quote

For instance if we wanted to represent

2500 bytes

we would say

2.5kB*

not present it in its binary form of

1x2048 1x256 1x128 1x64 1x4





This isn't what I was suggesting, and I think you know that.



Quote

Which is easier for your brain to process?



(Yes, computer units are metric. You see them every day. This is not some scary new system)



The american standard has not evolved. It begun with imperial measurements & while most of the rest of the world converted over to the metric standard america did not.

Saying something should be some way because that's how it is in america is not a persuasive argument. It comes across as more a case of patriotism.

Also I'm pretty sure you guys still count in base 10, not base 2, so that doesn't really make sense anyway.





The AS is two centuries of evolution from the English Imperial Standard, and I wasn't claiming that it was ideal. There are aspects of the AS system that are more intuitive than Metric, however. A kilometer is as fine a travel distance measurement as a mile, and it is easier to convert to personal distances (i.e. feet & meters), but smaller measurements are more difficult to rationally manipulate on-the-fly. Fractions of an inch are base 2 divisions, (half an inch, quarter of an inch, eighth, so on) that allow the mind to focus on relative sizes (more natural) as opposed to addition in multiple base ten units. (2.475 kilometers plus 45.5 meters plus 45287 millimeters, quick how far is that? No cheating, do it in your head) Yes, I know that most people would be able to do it, but halving and quartering (and doubling) is just more natural to the human mind.



Quote

Random fact: The only three countries that have not officially adopted the metric system are america, burma, liberia (with america being the only industrialised)

(Where "officially" means declared adoption by the government as the standard, not sole use within the country)





Not so random fact, Metric is taught to schoolchildren in this country, and has been since I was a child. But the children must also learn what everyone else uses within their society. The highway signs have both miles and kilometers where I live, and the only place that I have used the km was in the US military.



Quote

*I'm going by the standard that there are 1000 bytes to a kilobyte & not 1024 for the sake of clarity (There are actually 2 separate measuring systems for file sizes)



Yes, one is base ten and the other is base two. Considering the context is 'bits' & 'bytes'; base two is the correct one both technically and historicly (search "two bits" or "pieces of eight"), but I was not trying to make my point for either, as I was just talking about modern simplicity. Thanks for making my point so well, btw. True. So consider it a recommendation over a named decimalisation system. There is no reason that we must name by decimals, but we must have some kind of naming system or one will develop anyway.This isn't what I was suggesting, and I think you know that.The AS is two centuries of evolution from the English Imperial Standard, and I wasn't claiming that it was ideal. There are aspects of the AS system that are more intuitive than Metric, however. A kilometer is as fine a travel distance measurement as a mile, and it is easier to convert to personal distances (i.e. feet & meters), but smaller measurements are more difficult to rationally manipulate on-the-fly. Fractions of an inch are base 2 divisions, (half an inch, quarter of an inch, eighth, so on) that allow the mind to focus on relative sizes (more natural) as opposed to addition in multiple base ten units. (2.475 kilometers plus 45.5 meters plus 45287 millimeters, quick how far is that? No cheating, do it in your head) Yes, I know that most people would be able to do it, but halving and quartering (and doubling) is just more natural to the human mind.Not so random fact, Metric is taught to schoolchildren in this country, and has been since I was a child. But the children must also learn what everyone else uses within their society. The highway signs have both miles and kilometers where I live, and the only place that I have used the km was in the US military.Yes, one is base ten and the other is base two. Considering the context is 'bits' & 'bytes'; base two is the correct one both technically and historicly (search "two bits" or "pieces of eight"), but I was not trying to make my point for either, as I was just talking about modern simplicity. Thanks for making my point so well, btw. "The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."



- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'

MoonShadow



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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1000 Re: Terminology for Fractional Bitcoins January 03, 2011, 05:27:27 AM #18 Quote from: nanotube on January 01, 2011, 11:40:02 PM Quote from: creighto on December 31, 2010, 11:08:30 PM Quote from: kiba on December 31, 2010, 10:59:58 PM Why does metric sucks?



It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...



1 unit note

2 unit note

4 unit note

8

16

32

and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

It's based upon how people write, not how they think. Base 2 is a better in real life, and much of American Standard has evolved over the decades to reflect that. If a printed Bitcoin note is ever printed, it should follow a pattern of notes as follows...1 unit note2 unit note4 unit note1632and so on. Nothing is simplier and easier for the human mind to wrap itself around than doubling and halving of sums, so long as one doesn't have to convert from base 2 to base 10 on the fly, which is what we have to do since most every fiat currency in use is base 10 for mathmatical advantages.

i smell bs. the primary number system in common use is decimal, and multiplying/dividing by powers of 10 is the easiest thing to do. here's an experiment: divide 100000 by 32 in your head, quick! yea, thought so, not so easy is it? now divide it by 100? pretty instant, no?



if you think i'm cheating by using powers of 10 for the initial number... how about dividing 1048576 by 32 in your head? now how about by 100? unless you're a coder used to dealing in powers of 2, you're not going to produce the result 1048576/32 instantly in your head.

i smell bs. the primary number system in common use is decimal, and multiplying/dividing by powers of 10 is the easiest thing to do. here's an experiment: divide 100000 by 32 in your head, quick! yea, thought so, not so easy is it? now divide it by 100? pretty instant, no?if you think i'm cheating by using powers of 10 for the initial number... how about dividing 1048576 by 32 in your head? now how about by 100? unless you're a coder used to dealing in powers of 2, you're not going to produce the result 1048576/32 instantly in your head.

Your still asking me to process base ten math, not base two. Regardless, this is not what I was talking about. I know of no monetary system that developed naturally as base ten. (Almost, let's say) all of them developed as base two. As pointed out by another, this is what a 'coinage' system usually looks like; a primary unit of metal, by weight. It's half coin and quarter coin, and usually it's eighth coin, develop for change. Notably, the artificial monetary unit known as the Euro, does not use halves or quarters. Yet most modern currency units are derived from units that developed naturally, and in societies that were predominately illiterate in base ten mathmatics. Many modern currencies still have coins with halves and quarter unit values for historical reasons, because those are still evenly dividable by 100 without introducing fractional "cents" or "pence" into the mix. Your still asking me to process base ten math, not base two. Regardless, this is not what I was talking about. I know of no monetary system that developedas base ten. (Almost, let's say) all of them developed as base two. As pointed out by another, this is what a 'coinage' system usually looks like; a primary unit of metal, by weight. It's half coin and quarter coin, and usually it's eighth coin, develop for change. Notably, the artificial monetary unit known as the Euro, does not use halves or quarters. Yet most modern currency units are derived from units that developed naturally, and in societies that were predominately illiterate in base ten mathmatics. Many modern currencies still have coins with halves and quarter unit values for historical reasons, because those are still evenly dividable by 100 without introducing fractional "cents" or "pence" into the mix. "The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."



- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'