as far as the mechanics of the “counters” that were being discussed… if the comment "loads of counterplays he can make versus “counters.”… then i would say that those, are not really counter plays; they are ways to remain a neutral force.

if your good, you shouldn’t be always concerned by and putting your attention/talents on remaining a neutral force… especially against - strong general draft characters - that have strengths which far exceed being you’re babysitter.

And in the case of the x3 return mechanic, they don’t have to divert attention to counter you… your Clones just have to be there

no where did i say that samuro had no counter play options or draft considerations; But I’ve eluded to him having no real consistent “hard counter” opportunities in the team fight. Which is not the worst thing, if the rest of his kit reflects those decisions well.

“He can i-frame D.va Self Destruct. How’s that for sustain?” its not the numerical sustain that was referenced; in comparison to the trade opportunities of characters, whom you categorized as being a counter - because they thrived on “overwhelming” characters.

Does ming have “sustain”, because she teleport more? no but she trades with some skill shot mages well. Samuro has mobility, which has different implications to consider. In back line trade, your looking for enemy reliance on defensive mobility and skill shots; even then its not always straight forward because of enabler and direct target build paths.

But, samuro also has the ability to deal sustain dmg vs certain frontlines.

Its good that he has to make some decisions about creating space and being a dmg threat. But how rigid those build paths become is also part of the issue. Especially since His (E) clone build got dumped on.

I’m not saying he should be a general use hero, or a TF juggernaut. But there is another level of these considerations not holding up against most general drafts, that is not paralleled in characters like ming, genji or even tracer.

Not in the way a team can support you, and not in the way you can turn on a Greymane or sonya who is keying on you.

“I’m not gonna say Bladestorm doesn’t suck…as a passive, it would still be bad.”

But it would be better in those situations. And there are situations where blade storm is the right choice. Unfortunately the only synergy right now, is full (E) and the 30% dmg mark… it might even be his best option vs a general strength draft.

“focusing down/wasting skillshots on clones all game, too.”

its not a waste if your spec’d for any kind of return… thats the point.

the dynamic of in fight and out of fight will always favor stacks and return; sometimes its fair, sometimes its not. Its not when your in fight healing is ramped up to 7 heroes because of clones. An issue that is none essential to hard counter in the first place; but also hard countered by many characters who still have multiple general draft purpose, who don’t need high resource to punish.