ArticMine



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LegendaryActivity: 2268Merit: 1041Monero Core Team Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 28, 2015, 11:39:55 PM #8341 Quote from: rpietila on August 28, 2015, 10:58:11 PM Quote from: thefunkybits on August 28, 2015, 09:41:29 PM Orderbook looks like shit..no support!



maybe if we paint a double bottom though



The manipulative character of the ask side is visible all the way here..



I would not be too scared of the weak bid side, it's proven many times that you can sell XMR low, but buying it low is a more difficult thing to do

The manipulative character of the ask side is visible all the way here..I would not be too scared of the weak bid side, it's proven many times that you canXMR low, butit low is a more difficult thing to do

I am far more interested in the what is going on with development; in particular the ever widening gap between the tagged 0.8.8.6 build and the current builds in master,



Edit: The current blocksize issue in Bitcoin, may provide some short term solace to the Monero bears, but this will likely be at the expense of some medium and even long term pain. I am far more interested in the what is going on with development; in particular the ever widening gap between the tagged 0.8.8.6 build and the current builds in master, https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero , than in the order book. These fundamentals do not look good for the Monero bears at all.Edit: The current blocksize issue in Bitcoin, may provide some short term solace to the Monero bears, but this will likely be at the expense of some medium and even long term pain. Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card

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LegendaryActivity: 1092Merit: 1000 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 29, 2015, 03:58:08 PM #8344 With current emission the daily coins costs only a few thousands of dollars (around 7 000 usd - I know pathetic)).

It is funny the markets are not able to rise to higher level.

There need to be some incentive to actually hold and buy Moneros.





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MemberActivity: 97Merit: 10 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 29, 2015, 06:27:01 PM #8345 Poloniex margin loan rates for BTC have come down. This is likely related to the drop in ETH volume.



I currently am not carrying a single loan higher than .05%.



It appears the loan rates will continue to fall as long as the ETH volume subsides ... meaning it should be easier to margin XMR going forward.

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LegendaryActivity: 2268Merit: 1041Monero Core Team Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 29, 2015, 09:22:05 PM #8347 Quote from: TrueCryptonaire on August 29, 2015, 03:58:08 PM With current emission the daily coins costs only a few thousands of dollars (around 7 000 usd - I know pathetic)).

It is funny the markets are not able to rise to higher level.

There need to be some incentive to actually hold and buy Moneros.







Many people do not download source code and compile themselves. So they are pricing based on binaries that are over 8 months old. Many people do not download source code and compile themselves. So they are pricing based on binaries that are over 8 months old. Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card

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Sr. MemberActivity: 658Merit: 250 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 29, 2015, 11:41:32 PM #8350 I speculate that you can't have anon on the blockchain. It is not secure enough to stand the test of time with your identity possibly being compromised because it is stored on a public ledger.

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LegendaryActivity: 2534Merit: 1167 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 30, 2015, 12:05:33 AM

Last edit: August 30, 2015, 01:17:41 AM by smooth #8353 Quote from: BlackWidow on August 29, 2015, 11:41:32 PM I speculate that you can't have anon on the blockchain. It is not secure enough to stand the test of time with your identity possibly being compromised because it is stored on a public ledger.



Your identity is not stored. What is stored are the transactions that move coins around, and the relationships between those transactions. Could that possibly be compromised in the future? Sure, anything could possibly be compromised.



In opposition to that premise we have:



1. That the cryptographic primitives used are mature, well understood and carefully scrutinized, making such breaks far less likely than newer techniques.



2. That the techniques used are defined in a formal mathematical way which make it tractable to fully analyze and prove their properties. This does not apply to methods that rely on complex implementations with no precise mathematical description.



3. That there are two separate methods being used, stealth addressing for unlinkability and ring signatures for untraceability. To fully compromise the chain to the level of Bitcoin's susceptibility to blockchain analysis you would need to break both. If one or the other were compromised, it could be replaced and coins moved so at least the privacy of current holdings would still be retained even if the other were later broken.



4. Nothing prevents using off chain mixing techniques in addition to the on-chain. Even ad-hoc ones like moving coins between a few busy sites like exchanges, gambling sites, in-person cash transactions, etc. This adds another layer on top of the base layer. But coins that lack such a base layer can never add one, they can only rely on the other methods.



5. If all of these methods were fully compromised then you have a situation that at its worst is no worse than Bitcoin. In all reasonable probability it is likely to be better.



Quote AM is much more tech savvy than myself.

He later revised his opinion and stated that some form of on-chain anonymity is essential because it is the only way to preserve the end-to-end property (provable correctness without relying on the complex behavior of intermediaries). Check his later posts. He uses TPTB_need_war now.

Your identity is not stored. What is stored are the transactions that move coins around, and the relationships between those transactions. Could that possibly be compromised in the future? Sure, anything could possibly be compromised.In opposition to that premise we have:1. That the cryptographic primitives used are mature, well understood and carefully scrutinized, making such breaks far less likely than newer techniques.2. That the techniques used are defined in a formal mathematical way which make it tractable to fully analyze and prove their properties. This does not apply to methods that rely on complex implementations with no precise mathematical description.3. That there are two separate methods being used, stealth addressing for unlinkability and ring signatures for untraceability. To fully compromise the chain to the level of Bitcoin's susceptibility to blockchain analysis you would need to break both. If one or the other were compromised, it could be replaced and coins moved so at least the privacy of current holdings would still be retained even if the other were later broken.4. Nothing prevents using off chain mixing techniques in addition to the on-chain. Even ad-hoc ones like moving coins between a few busy sites like exchanges, gambling sites, in-person cash transactions, etc. This adds another layer on top of the base layer. But coins that lack such a base layer can never add one, they can only rely on the other methods.5. If all of these methods were fully compromised then you have a situation that at its worst is no worse than Bitcoin. In all reasonable probability it is likely to be better.He later revised his opinion and stated that some form of on-chain anonymity is essential because it is the only way to preserve the end-to-end property (provable correctness without relying on the complex behavior of intermediaries). Check his later posts. He uses TPTB_need_war now.

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LegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1711Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 30, 2015, 12:18:03 AM #8354 Quote from: BlackWidow on August 29, 2015, 11:41:32 PM I speculate that you can't have anon on the blockchain. It is not secure enough to stand the test of time with your identity possibly being compromised because it is stored on a public ledger.



I speculate that Speculators are speculating diametrically opposed to your Speculation! I speculate that Speculators are speculating diametrically opposed to your Speculation! Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 392Merit: 250 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 30, 2015, 12:25:30 AM #8355 Quote

Your identity is not stored. What is stored are the transactions that move coins around, and the relationships between those transactions. Could that possibly be compromised in the future? Sure, anything could possibly be compromised.





The public transactions in bitcoin are, well, public, and can be traced and used against you. The perfect example is the crack down of silck road, in which public blockchain of bitcoin played a key role:



https://coincenter.org/2015/04/silk-road-corruption-case-shows-how-law-enforcement-uses-bitcoin/

The public transactions in bitcoin are, well, public, and can be traced and used against you. The perfect example is the crack down of silck road, in which public blockchain of bitcoin played a key role: Bitcoin is NOT anonymous: http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com

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Sr. MemberActivity: 658Merit: 250 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 30, 2015, 12:29:26 AM #8356 Quote from: smooth on August 30, 2015, 12:05:33 AM Quote from: BlackWidow on August 29, 2015, 11:41:32 PM I speculate that you can't have anon on the blockchain. It is not secure enough to stand the test of time with your identity possibly being compromised because it is stored on a public ledger.



Your identity is not stored. What is stored are the transactions that move coins around, and the relationships between those transactions. Could that possibly be compromised in the future? Sure, anything could possibly be compromised.



In opposition to that premise we have:



1. That the cryptographic primitives used are mature, well understand and carefully scrutinized, making such breaks far less likely than newer techniques.



2. That the techniques used are defined in a formal mathematical way which make it tractable to fully analyze and prove their properties. This does not apply to methods that rely on complex implementations with no precise mathematical description.



2. That there are two separate methods being used, stealth addressing for unlinkability and ring signatures for untraceability. To fully compromise the chain to the level of Bitcoin's susceptibility to blockchain analysis you would need to break both. If one or the other were compromised, it could be replaced and coins moved so at least the privacy of current holdings would still be retained even if the other were also broken.



3. Nothing prevents using off chain mixing techniques in addition to the on-chain. Even ad-hoc ones like moving coins between a few busy sites like exchanges, gambling sites, in-person cash transactions, etc. This adds another layer on top of the base layer. But coins that such a base layer can never add one, they can only rely on the other methods.



4. If all of these methods were fully compromised then you have a situation that at its worst is no worse than Bitcoin. In all reasonable probability it is likely to be better.



Quote AM is much more tech savvy than myself.

He later revised his opinion and stated that some form of on-chain anonymity is essential because it is the only way to preserve the end-to-end property (provable correctness without relying on the complex behavior of intermediaries). Check his later posts. He uses TPTB_need_war now.



Your identity is not stored. What is stored are the transactions that move coins around, and the relationships between those transactions. Could that possibly be compromised in the future? Sure, anything could possibly be compromised.In opposition to that premise we have:1. That the cryptographic primitives used are mature, well understand and carefully scrutinized, making such breaks far less likely than newer techniques.2. That the techniques used are defined in a formal mathematical way which make it tractable to fully analyze and prove their properties. This does not apply to methods that rely on complex implementations with no precise mathematical description.2. That there are two separate methods being used, stealth addressing for unlinkability and ring signatures for untraceability. To fully compromise the chain to the level of Bitcoin's susceptibility to blockchain analysis you would need to break both. If one or the other were compromised, it could be replaced and coins moved so at least the privacy of current holdings would still be retained even if the other were also broken.3. Nothing prevents using off chain mixing techniques in addition to the on-chain. Even ad-hoc ones like moving coins between a few busy sites like exchanges, gambling sites, in-person cash transactions, etc. This adds another layer on top of the base layer. But coins that such a base layer can never add one, they can only rely on the other methods.4. If all of these methods were fully compromised then you have a situation that at its worst is no worse than Bitcoin. In all reasonable probability it is likely to be better.He later revised his opinion and stated that some form of on-chain anonymity is essential because it is the only way to preserve the end-to-end property (provable correctness without relying on the complex behavior of intermediaries). Check his later posts. He uses TPTB_need_war now.



On a side note, I wonder how many people read your posts, especially that one, and say, "wow, that guy Smooth knows his stuff, I don't understand a word he just said, but he must be right" smh



Although I know that the Monero community tends to lean on the scholarly side, damn Smooth you need to speak English before you get accused of using technobabble as a persuasion tool. LOL



Anyway, with your intelligence obviously not in question, I wonder why you don't see the danger here.



Once the transactions are able to be tracked anon falls apart. Being reduced to the identity protection that Bitcoin provides is not acceptable if someone's life was counting on their anonymity staying secure for more than just 10 years or whatever short time it ends up being.



Look, that original conversation I just quoted was almost a year ago. Seems like yesterday. A decade is quick.



Now, is there something that can be done with Monero itself so that it doesn't have such a short shelf life?? On a side note, I wonder how many people read your posts, especially that one, and say, "wow, that guy Smooth knows his stuff, I don't understand a word he just said, but he must be right" smhAlthough I know that the Monero community tends to lean on the scholarly side, damn Smooth you need to speak English before you get accused of using technobabble as a persuasion tool. LOLAnyway, with your intelligence obviously not in question, I wonder why you don't see the danger here.Once the transactions are able to be tracked anon falls apart. Being reduced to the identity protection that Bitcoin provides is not acceptable if someone's life was counting on their anonymity staying secure for more than just 10 years or whatever short time it ends up being.Look, that original conversation I just quoted was almost a year ago. Seems like yesterday. A decade is quick.Now, is there something that can be done with Monero itself so that it doesn't have such a short shelf life??

smooth



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LegendaryActivity: 2534Merit: 1167 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 30, 2015, 12:29:43 AM #8357 Quote from: owm123 on August 30, 2015, 12:25:30 AM Quote

Your identity is not stored. What is stored are the transactions that move coins around, and the relationships between those transactions. Could that possibly be compromised in the future? Sure, anything could possibly be compromised.





The public transactions in bitcoin are, well, public, and can be traced and used against you. The perfect example is the crack down of silck road, in which public blockchain of bitcoin played a key role:

The public transactions in bitcoin are, well, public, and can be traced and used against you. The perfect example is the crack down of silck road, in which public blockchain of bitcoin played a key role:

Some can, some can't. I'm quite certain not all of my Bitcoins can be traced to me personally. I'll almost equally certain that some can. Again, just because there is information there doesn't mean it necessarily be analyzed successfully. But then, that's the whole reason for Monero, is to make this process harder and give more privacy to all users not just the very careful ones.









Some can, some can't. I'm quite certain not all of my Bitcoins can be traced to me personally. I'll almost equally certain that some can. Again, just because there is information there doesn't mean it necessarily be analyzed successfully. But then, that's the whole reason for Monero, is to make this process harder and give more privacy to all users not just the very careful ones.

smooth



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LegendaryActivity: 2534Merit: 1167 Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation August 30, 2015, 12:33:28 AM #8358 Quote from: BlackWidow on August 30, 2015, 12:29:26 AM Anyway, with your intelligence obviously not in question, I wonder why you don't see the danger here.



Once the transactions are able to be tracked anon falls apart. Being reduced to the identity protection that Bitcoin provides is not acceptable if someone's life was counting on their anonymity staying secure for more than just 10 years or whatever short time it ends up being.



Because there is no reason to believe that the transactions are able to be tracked, nor that any better system currently exists at a holistic level. See items #1, #2, and #3 above, along with what I said about AM's later comments. He's clearly stated that the best anon method available today is Monero, and that he is happy to personally use it himself.



For example:



Quote from: TPTB_need_war on August 26, 2015, 05:31:05 PM I am happy Monero exists. I support it (we've been using XMR.to for example). And if ever I produce something better, I hope the Monero devs join in the fun. We are all in this for the same reasons. No need to be exclusionary and selfish. There is plenty of profit and area responsibility opportunity for all who are talented. Let's go!



Quote Now, is there something that can be done with Monero itself so that it doesn't have such a short shelf life??



I'm not even sure what to make about this comment about shelf life. This is not a dried food product in a box. Development is ongoing and improvements continue to be made. A clear defficiency, for example, are leakages that occur due to no IP network obfuscation at all. That's why we are tracking the i2p developments on their C++ implementation and plan to integrate that ASAP. (BTW, did anyone see that Bitcoin Core recently got the ability to seamlessly run as a Tor hidden service? Nice work by the Bitcoin devs!) These are not perfect solutions of course, and we're all hard at work to make them even better.



No one is promising that any specific technology is the ultimate solution for all time. If they do, grab your wallet and run the other way. Because there is no reason to believe that the transactions are able to be tracked, nor that any better system currently exists at a holistic level. See items #1, #2, and #3 above, along with what I said about AM's later comments. He's clearly stated that the best anon method available today is Monero, and that he is happy to personally use it himself.For example:I'm not even sure what to make about this comment about shelf life. This is not a dried food product in a box. Development is ongoing and improvements continue to be made. A clear defficiency, for example, are leakages that occur due to no IP network obfuscation at all. That's why we are tracking the i2p developments on their C++ implementation and plan to integrate that ASAP. (BTW, did anyone see that Bitcoin Core recently got the ability to seamlessly run as a Tor hidden service? Nice work by the Bitcoin devs!) These are not perfect solutions of course, and we're all hard at work to make them even better.No one is promising that any specific technology is the ultimate solution for all time. If they do, grab your wallet and run the other way.