Lew: Certainly the political environment is not one today that’s hospitable to a lot of the basic ideas that I’m describing. It’s why I think TPP is so good and so important, because it’s yet another way of protecting our values. That’s certainly not the way it’s being approached in the political arena this year. I think we have to continue to make the case for why these things matter.

I don’t find it hard to understand how eight years after the worst recession since the Great Depression there is an unusually high level of anxiety and anger in the American population. The fact that we’ve created 14.5 million new jobs, the fact that we have a sustained recovery that’s better than [that of] any of the other industrialized countries, the fact that consumer demand remains very strong, should suggest people would feel better. Why don’t they? You can say it’s because other people stole our jobs through trade agreements, and people respond to that. I don’t know if that’s really the explanation, but it’s certainly not the answer to the future. Because in the future, the growing markets are not here. Population growth and growth of the middle class is in all these other markets we want to be part of.

Look at the Great Recession. Think about people our age. I would have been 50, 52 when the economy went south. If you lost your job and you were 50 years old and you couldn’t find the right next job for a couple years, you’re probably a step down from where you were.

Now think about somebody who graduated high school or college during the recession. They didn’t get work right away. They saw other kids coming out after them getting started before them. They’re trying to catch up. And we know it’s really hard to catch up. So there are things coming out of the recession that are contributory factors. I would think that there are answers that are much more constructive than a lot of what we’re hearing in the debate this year. But it’s not hard to understand why there is uneasiness out there.

Clemons: One of the interesting things about your essay to me is that it argues for U.S. leadership in the global economy—but not from the traditional stance of many of your predecessors, that is, from a neoliberal economic frame [which promotes unfettered free trade, no constraints on capital movements, and is uber laissez-faire]. Does an ad hoc approach make it harder for the U.S. to lead? What is your North Star in all this?

Lew: I wouldn’t put the label neoliberal or neoconservative on it. I do try to be pragmatic. I feel perfectly comfortable adopting some things and challenging others. In the 21st century, the world needs the United States to be a North Star. The world wants us to be the North Star. I really do believe that. I am amazed at how other countries want to hear our advice and what we think makes sense. Sometimes we may have the habit of lecturing too much. We have to be careful not to do that. But I’ve had prime ministers from other countries thank me for having helped influence decisions and [creating] a policy environment where they can do what they needed to do. There is no other country in the world that has the ability, in that way, to do that.