Two strategies for Peach's side-smash and down-B that you can take as seriously as you care to.

I. Knitting Theory of Turnips

Spoiler: Quetzalcoatl's original Qdrop description (Y>Y+Z) Quetzalcoatl said: Double Jump Land Z dropping, aka Q drop (named after me lol =P):

It sounds hard, it is hard. Useful? It is if one could do it consistently. What is it then?.. first what is DJL:



Double Jump Landing is when Peach double jumps so fast that the second part of her jump, which has a dip in it, causes her to land on the ground again. This means that peach can use it to:

- Change directions during a long run by DJLing then changing directions

- Recover from shield in the fastest way possible

- Fast teching

- Q dropping



Q dropping involves Z dropping a turnip in the few moments you are actually in the air in a DJL. A standard Q drop involves pressing these buttons in order: X/Y -> X/Y+Z the first and second jump must be done very quickly. If you did it right, Peach will Z drop a turnip while remaining on the ground. What are its uses then? Well, exluding all the useless little things I could come up with that would be totally impractical in a real game. It narrows it down to 1 thing (maybe 2 if you're really good at it)



It is the faster way to search through turnips (not very useful) <emphasis added by VBM>



More importantly it allows Peach to grab while holding a turnip. How you may ask? quite simply actually. Block an attack, then press these buttons in order very quickly: While holding onto Shield - X/Y -> X/Y+A -> X/Y+A

The second step will Q drop the turnip via R/L + A. The third part involves pressing the same buttons again, this will be the grab, of course you don't need to jump to grab, but it is much easier to mash jump+A twice than to replace the last step with simply A. Try it and you will see what I mean.

Ok, ok, it is not necessarily grabbing while holding a turnip, she has to drop it first, but its next fastest thing, and the z dropped turnip can sometimes hit the opponent before or during the grab. Click to expand...

Spoiler: 7 & 10 & 13 Frame Qdrop (YYZ)



Radiogiraffe said: Y>Y>Z [is] 3 frames faster. Also easier in technique and having a 3 frame window to input the double jump after Jump Squat. Getting consistent in this method is really easy compared to Y>Z>Y but doesn't drop the turnip in front of her.



29 Frames: Turnip Pull

5 Frames: Jump squat

1 Frames: DJ

1 Frames: Zdrop/Wait

Total:36 Frames Click to expand... Radiogiraffe said: For whatever reason, the first frame of wait when transitioning from air to wait is still counted as being in the air. Allowing you to zdrop. If you inputted an A attack on the first Wait frame it will do an aerial attack (if you didn't zdrop since you can't press A twice in a row right after each other.) Click to expand... Here is a complete list of inputs for the three YYZ qdrops as documented by DarkRijin

DarkRijin said: Perfect (7f qdrop) is as follows:

Frame 1: KneeBend 0 [aka JumpSquat]

Frame 2: KneeBend 1

Frame 3: KneeBend 2

Frame 4: KneeBend 3

Frame 5: KneeBend 4 (Input Jump here)

Frame 6: JumpAerialF 0 (Input Z here) [aka Double Jump Forward/Neutral]

Frame 7: Wait 0 (Input Down+B here)



If DJ is Input any later:

--- 1 Frame Airborne (10f qdrop) --- Increased by 3 Frames

Frame 1: KneeBend 0

Frame 2: KneeBend 1

Frame 3: KneeBend 2

Frame 4: KneeBend 3

Frame 5: KneeBend 4

Frame 6: JumpF 0 [aka SH/FJ forward/neutral] (Input Jump)

Frame 7: JumpAerialF 0 (Input Z)

Frame 8: JumpAerialF 1

Frame 9: JumpAerialF 2

Frame 10: Wait 0 (Input Down+B)



--- 2 Frame Airborne (13f qdrop) --- Increased by 6 Frames

Frame 1: KneeBend 0

Frame 2: KneeBend 1

Frame 3: KneeBend 2

Frame 4: KneeBend 3

Frame 5: KneeBend 4

Frame 6: JumpF 0

Frame 7: JumpF 1 (Input Jump)

Frame 8: JumpAerialF 0 (Input Z)

Frame 9: JumpAerialF 1

Frame 10: JumpAerialF 2

Frame 11: JumpAerialF 3

Frame 12: JumpAerial 4

Frame 13: Wait (Input Down+B)



Any frame past 2 Frames airborne will result in her being too high to hit the ground and enter Wait state. Z input can be at anytime during JumpF or JumpAerialF. However, you cannot input Z and Jump at the same time, that means you can only Perfect Qdrop by doing DJ then Z frame perfect, or end up with the 1 frame airborne frame data or worse (if pressing Z too late, you will end up throwing) Click to expand... 7 frame Qdrops give you a 36 fpt knitting cycle (.58333 sec), saving 16 frames over pull>throw each individual 'knit'. It takes 69% as much time as pull>throw, and you're getting to see 44.4% more turnips per second as compared to pull>throw.



The GIF below shows the 7 frame qdrop / 36 fpt cycle and is also by

Not sure who first discovered this set of inputs or when it was, but it was documented and sent to me by @ radiogiraffe on /r/ssbm. The inputs are the same as the Rush song and is the most optimal way to knit.Here is a complete list of inputs for the three YYZ qdrops as documented by The GIF below shows the 7 frame qdrop / 36 fpt cycle and is also by @radiogiraffe . Because the DJ comes before the zdrop, the turnip will always fall behind her. Here are the two in gfy form (both recorded at 33fps, "#?speed=1.8" at the end of the URLs should approximate full speed) (gif by @radiogiraffe , mirror close to in-game speed http://gfycat.com/CleanOpulentIbex#?speed=1.8

Spoiler: 10 & 12 Frame Qdrop (YZY)



Stratocaster said: 29 frames to pull

5 frames to jump

1 to Z drop

1 frame DJ

2 frames airborne

1 frame of wait (cannot act on this frame)

So total of 39.



1 frame late on the DJ makes it total 41. 2 frames late and you will not land. Click to expand... These are the 10 frame Qdrop (39 fpt, faster, see GIF below) and the 12 frame Qdrop (41 fpt, slower, easier/more common). Both drop the turnip in front of Peach.



Getting a combination of these two qdrops during your knitting gives you a 39-41 fpt cycle (.65-.683 sec), saving 11-13 frames each pull. Knitting with these two qdrops takes 75-79% as much time as pull>throw, and you're getting to see 27-33% more turnips per second as compared to pull>throw



The 39 fpt / 10 frame Qdrop, gif also by @

(mirror gif at 1/6 game speed

This was the optimal Qdrop method at the time of original posting, and in compliance with cunningham's law the 7 frame Qdrop was brought to my attention within 24h. The exact inputs for this Qdrop as determined by @ Stratocaster are as follows:These are the 10 frame Qdrop (39 fpt, faster, see GIF below) and the 12 frame Qdrop (41 fpt, slower, easier/more common). Both drop the turnip in front of Peach.Getting a combination of these two qdrops during your knittingas compared to pull>throwThe 39 fpt / 10 frame Qdrop, gif also by @ Stratocaster (mirror gif at 1/6 game speed http://gfycat.com/AdmirableHomelyBumblebee

This

now gives you a 36-41 fpt cycle (.58333-.683 sec), saving 11-16 frames each pull. Searching with Qdrops takes you only 69-79% of the time pull>throw takes, and you're getting to see 27-44% more turnips/second as compared to pull>throw.

'Dud': =EV, 6% damage, 25 base KB, 60 KB growth

'Winky': +EV, 8% damage, slightly more KB than normal

'Dot': +EV, 16% damage, slightly more KB than winky

'Stitch': +EV, 34% damage, slightly more KB than winky

Spoiler: Magus' Turnip Chart

The dud faces are all effectively the same, with an 89% chance of pulling (~1 out of every 1.2 pulls)

Winky has a 6.8% chance of pull (~1 out of every 14.6 pulls)

DotEyes/SemiStitch/theodore has a 1.711% chance of pull (~1 out of every 58.5)

Stitchface/gaddish has a 1.711% chance of pull (~1 out of every 58.5)

Pulling an item is about .8% chance (~1 out of every 128).

~10% chance (~1 out of every 10) you will get +EV turnip (winky, stitch, dot) each pull

~11% chance (~1 out of every 9) of pulling anything +EV (winky/stitch/dot/saturnbomb/ sword)

1) Recatching

2) Winky is the best

3) Never make an unsafe pull

4) Know basic probabilities

30% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 3 pulls

50% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 6 pulls

75% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 12 pulls

85% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 16 pulls

95% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 25 pulls

10% likely to get at least one stitch after 6 pulls

20% likely to get at least one stitch after 13 pulls

50% likely to get at least one stitch after 40 pulls

5% likely to get at least one item after 6 pulls

10% likely to get at least one item after 14 pulls

25% likely to get at least one item after 38 pulls

5) Get comfortable with items

Corollary:

II. Panning for Frying Pans

IMPORTANT: when waiting for opponent to spawn, DO ANY PANNING BEFORE KNITTING. Don't want to risk throwing away a +EV pull with a smash throw.

Pan: 15-18%, 39 base KB, .44 KB scaling, vertical KB, most damage, slightly less range

Club: 13-17%, 50 base KB, .38 KB scaling, 45 deg above horizontal KB, tipper/sourspot effect, slightly more range

Racket: 12-16%, 48 base KB, .18 KB scaling, horizontal KB, least damage

III. References

------------------------------------------------------------------------This is a combination of an optimization technique ("Knitting") and a few general rules for turnip use to maximize the benefits gained by it.reCurrently the prevailing method to look for a stitchface between stocks is pull>throw>pull>throw. Pulls take 29 frames and grounded throws take 23 frames (direction changes frame of item release, but they all complete in the same time). This equates to aIt looks like this, everyone should be familiar with it already (gif created by @ radiogiraffe for this post, depicts a perfect pull>throw cycle)(not in-game speed)The fastest way to get rid of a turnip while remaining grounded to pull another (without getting into TAS realm bs) has been known since 2006. Luckily, its also unique to Peach and DJL characters. The Qdrop, named for @ Quetzalcoatl , was first detailed in his guide By completing(since you're trying to make stitches), Peach optimizes the rate at which she can pull multiple turnips in a row. There are currently 5 documented Qdrop variations in two classes (YYZ vs YZY)Quetz's Old School method (Y>Y+Z) is the easiest to start with when getting an idea of the qdrop timing. Just mash the second X/Y and Z at what you perceive to be the 'same time'. This method gives you a mix of 7/10/13 (YYZ) and 10/12 (YZY) qdrops depending on if Z or Y/Z is input first. It is pretty random, but personally I seem to get mostly YYZ qdrops when doing this.As long as you're able to do one of the above Qdrops consistently, you're still saving frames over Pull>throw. Even if you're just mashing jump+Z and have no idea which one is coming out, congratulations you've learned to knit.(disclaimer: turnips cannot exist in a non-integer state)Just before an enemy respawn, this can help expand those 2 safe pulls to 3, or free up some extra frames for panning (see next section). Knitting is perfect for when you get a kill off the top. It builds on the split-second facial recognition Peach mains should have already. Improving that will improve your knitting efficiency and visa versa.Knitting helps force an approach if you're waiting out a PS transformation. I've have also had some success with it in the early stages of Samus bomb recovery, while waiting for her to get within throw range.The one downside to knitting is not having the active hitbox flying about when they spawn, so you may still want to opt for an uthrow on the 2nd to last turnip pull (depending your location/spawn location/stage), and then holding onto the last turnip for immediately engaging the opponent. (From the Turnip Guide Revision 1: a smashed upthrow adds ~3.4% damage to the turnip, but its damage decreases as it rises into the air / regains as it falls back down)The entire point of knitting is to enable us to 'play the odds' as often as possible. Every pull comes with an expected value (EV) of how much we will 'get out of it'. The normal turnips (duds) are our baseline (=EV), ie the expected 'return' on our 29 frame investment. Obviously we want to get as many +EV pulls as we can in our games. An unsafe/interrupted pull is -EV, meaning you should avoid them at all costs.As some background, here is some info on turnips from the turnip guide revision 1 ere is the typical turnip distribution chart as documented by @ Magus420 Here are the approximated numbers I'll work with based off of the above chart:Below are the core tenants behind knitting theory, and need to be used in conjunction with the technique (i'd argue knitting on its own is too small of a benefit to be worthwhile). They still hold for the usual pull>throw method of searching and are (imo) worth incorporating into any peach player's gameIf you are unable to recatch well or don't regularly go for them when able, there is no point in trying to optimize your turnip game with knitting. Stop learning this weird technique and go work on recatching first. Without doubling or tripling the value we get out of each pull (especially our +EV turnips/saturn, but duds too) we waste our miniscule benefit gained from emphasizing playing of the odds.It will not help you to work on getting to a +EV pull faster if you cannot use it to its fullest already. Even if we can see more turnips-per-second with knitting, we never want to make pull we don't have to. The odds are NOT in our favor that we'll get something better, and its a waste of vital frames when the opponent is not dead. According to knitting theory, recatching as well as possible is 100x more important than actually incorporating knitting into your game.you can even recatch an accidentally qdropped turnip (for the 7f one at least) by hitting A right after, it can be pretty hard though. Here is a gif by @radiogiraffe showing her item grab box (grey)The goal of knitting, despite the name, is not to find stichface. If you find winky, the most common +EV turnip, its time to stop knitting immediately. Even if you have plenty of time before the opponent spawns, your search is over. Start focusing on your stage positioning for the incoming invincible foe.If you did decide to keep pulling, you'll have thrown away perfectly good EV 10/11 times in search of something rarer. There is a 1/11 chance that you did luck out and got something as-good-as or better than winky, but its most likely got another winky anyway. The chance of getting anything better than winky (stitch/dot/item) is a paltry 312/7424 = 1/23.8 pulls = 4.2%. Its simply never worth gambling the guaranteed value in your hand for a high-risk-high-reward attempt like that. All in all I find winky to be the most 'bang for your buck' turnip, especially when you recatch reliably and regularly. He should be a welcome sight, never a disappointment. (be careful with the facial recognition, he can get tricky)This is about as important as recatching. As stated above, an unsafe / incomplete pull is the only time a pull can give you negative value. Spending 29 frames to play an already low-odds lottery and then being damaged/comboed/killed is probably the worst investment you could make.Every single risky pull is giving free % to your opponent in a gamble to complete the FULL 29 frames (if interrupted on 28 or earlier, the turnip disappears). Even if you get hit as soon as the animation completes, there is still an additional chance that you'll drop the turnip in hitstun (no exact percentage, but it seems to be 1/10 of the times you get hit while holding a turnip). On top of that, if you luck out and retain the turnip/item, they're still getting a free punish before you can use that pull to defend yourself.This is a core principle to peach play that you end up breaking when first playing a new opponent, since there are many matchup/stage combinations where you need to test pulling in uncertain situations. This sense comes through trial and error and playing on the edge of your opponent's reach in neutral. Ideally you'll slowly learn which opportunities are barely safe (can buffer spotdodge/shield to avoid punish) or read openings specific to your opponent, thereby minimizing your number of -EV pulls each game. If you're unsure that its safe, don't pull!Using the general rule of getting extra value one out of every nine pulls, probability can help further predict the likelihood of getting the +EV pull you're looking for. Each pull there is a 8/9 chance of getting a default turnip, so after two pulls (8/9 * 8/9) there is a 64/81 = 79% chance that you got a default turnip both times. This equates to a 21% probability that you get at least one +EV pull after two pulls.Continuing this a bit:These may appear a bit optimistic at first, but become more reasonable once you start paying better attention to all the winkys you've been throwing away your whole life. Practice keeping track of how many pulls youve gotten in each game (takes some getting used to) or the gap between winkies/stitches. Sneaking in those extra pulls DOES make a difference.Items present Peach with a huge immediate advantage, its imperative to know how to capitalize with each the second she finds one.+++EV, do not be afraid of blowing up, learn to use it right and that should not happen. great when dropped, learn to zdrop>airdodge and qdrop oos. throws faster than turnips. avoid throwing when near platforms to avoid janky collision SDs. Mini guide by Caup usually best to throw, can swing to mess with opponent. sometimes bad because it replaces your dash attack. goes away after falling on the ground two times at most. throws faster then turnips. some info by 1000g2g3g4g800999 very strong shield breaker, plus people are used to shielding turnips. super combo when recaught, lasts the longest of all the items. try not to waste as an offstage edgeguard, throw him onstage to turn around instead if you can. feels like it has lower KB/scaling than a dud.I was tempted to make a rule about 'minimizing wasted turnip/item throws' but its a bit harder to codify in my opinion. Its clear that pulls that end up not connecting are not necessarily -EV. You could be controlling space, turning around midair, or covering an option. As a result this is more of an important facet of peach knowledge in general, and is independent of knitting theory.I'll leave it in this form:(As a sidenote, remember thatFollowing Knitting theory, it is never right to drop a +EV turnip where you normally would (edgeguard vs marth, running off platform). Holding onto a +EV pull until a good opening appears to throw it is smartest, so choose another option in those situations)Whenever you have spare time (especially in the mus that utilize fsmash), cycle through fsmash until you get the frying pan. The game doesn't actually cycle through the three in order, it randomly chooses one of the remaining two weapons to use each time. In other words, you will never get two of the same weapon in a row. Now that you've used pan, either the club or racket will come out on your next fsmash, which both have slightly better range and (arguably) KB trajectory (frame data for all three is the same). The first fsmash of every stock is picked from the three randomly, so this effect does not persist through death.This technique has been known since 2005 , possibly earlier.It is better in most cases to knock an opponent farther horizontally away with the club/racket and hope to set up an edgegard/gain space. Even if they are at high %, a frying pan will rarely kill (even when charged) and is awkward to act out of sometimes since they don't get sent a safe distance away. This, coupled with its slightly shorter range, makes it the weakest of the three in the matchups that I use fsmash the most in. In general, I find Fsmash is only worth using at maximum range anyway.There are only two situations in which a frying pan may be better (that I can think of at least). One is as a puff rest punish, fully charged, on some stages. The other is as a low% tool for comboing/juggling fastfallers, but these are the mus that fsmash is hardly ever used in. (There is some preference involved. If you think that the club is the weakest of the three, you can go clubbing between stocks, and if you hate the racket you can go racketeering instead.)One fsmash takes about as much time as a pull>qdrop or pull>throw, so you count it as one of your 'pull' attempts before starting to knit. Keep track of the last fsmash used, get good at reacting to them, and don't forget that the anti-pan effect goes away when you die.Total: 47 frames (~.78 seconds)Hit: 15-18Charge frame: 8IASA: 40Shield stun: 16Shield hit lag: 7Advantage: -14_-11Gifs and data from "Complete Peach Hitboxes and Frame Data" thread, damage and KB data from SSBWiki and @ Veril 's peach notes (damages may not be completely accurate)