michael barbaro

Previously, on “The Daily” —

[music]

megan twohey

So there we are, moments from publishing the story, and the role of Lisa Bloom is finally coming into focus. Within a week, we’d realize that her mother had also played a surprising role.

michael barbaro

Today —

jodi kantor

So we publish the story.

archived recording Famed Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein is responding tonight after The New York Times revealed decades of sexual harassment.

jodi kantor

And the reaction starts to build.

archived recording (george clooney) The idea that this predator, this assaulter, was out there silencing women, it’s beyond infuriating.

jodi kantor

Most of it is about Harvey Weinstein. Some of it is about Lisa Bloom.

archived recording Interestingly enough, one of the attorneys working with Weinstein is Lisa Bloom, daughter of the very high-profile women’s rights attorney Gloria Allred.

jodi kantor

People are incredulous that a women’s rights advocate could have played this role.

archived recording (tucker carlson) Celebrity lawyer Lisa Bloom sells herself as a fiery champion of the oppressed. She represented one of Bill Cosby’s accusers and three women who said Bill O’Reilly sexually harassed them. Yet in the case of Harvey Weinstein, Lisa Bloom took the side of the predator over the prey. archived recording (speaker 1) She’s normally on the other side. She’s normally the first attorney defending women in most of these cases. archived recording (speaker 2) Which may have something to do with why he hired her. archived recording (speaker 1) Well, it’ll be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out.

jodi kantor

So then —

archived recording Joining me now is attorney Gloria Allred, whose daughter, attorney Lisa Bloom, is on Harvey Weinstein’s legal team. Thank you so much for coming in.

jodi kantor

— Gloria Allred starts to play a public role in this story.

archived recording (gloria allred) I don’t second-guess her choices. I don’t criticize her choices. And she —

jodi kantor

But it’s kind of a strange and a confusing one.

archived recording What is that dynamic right now? archived recording (gloria allred) Well, my daughter has her own law firm. She is not with my law firm. She is an independent attorney.

jodi kantor

On the one hand, she sounds kind of disapproving of her daughter.

archived recording (gloria allred) I mean, I’ve been a lawyer for almost 42 years. We’re the leading women’s rights law firm in the nation, and we represent victims of sexual harassment. We don’t represent persons accused of sexually harassing. archived recording She’s saying that she, Gloria Allred, only represents accusers, that she would never represent the accused. On the other hand — archived recording (gloria allred) That is not a statement of criticism of my daughter.

jodi kantor

— she’s kind of defending her daughter.

archived recording (gloria allred) She’s an outstanding attorney, and all I can say is Harvey Weinstein is very fortunate to have her.

jodi kantor

But mostly what she’s conveying —

archived recording (gloria allred) Mr. Weinstein can exercise any legal rights, but that doesn’t take care of the people I care about —

jodi kantor

— is that she, Gloria Allred —

archived recording (gloria allred) — numerous alleged victims of Harvey Weinstein. We want justice for them.

jodi kantor

— is open for business.

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michael barbaro

Meaning what, exactly?

jodi kantor

So as you remember from this time —

archived recording 1 Two more women have come forward accusing media mogul Harvey Weinstein — archived recording 2 Two more women coming forward making serious allegations —

jodi kantor

— there is a flood of Harvey Weinstein victims coming forward.

archived recording — in graphic detail, accusing Harvey Weinstein and adding to the list that has now grown to more than 60.

jodi kantor

Gloria Allred is saying, I’ll be your lawyer.

archived recording (gloria allred) Women are now empowered, and they will never be silent again.

jodi kantor

And a number of them —

archived recording (gloria allred) Thank you for coming today.

jodi kantor

— say yes.

archived recording (gloria allred) Today, I’m here with another woman who alleges that she was sexually harassed by Harvey Weinstein. archived recording Gloria’s amazing, and so amazing for someone like me who’s not a celebrity, doesn’t have the support system that they have. to have someone like Gloria — archived recording (gloria allred) Today, a new accuser of Harvey Weinstein is speaking out about the sexual harassment that she alleges that she endured as a young actress and screenwriter who, at the request of Mr. Weinstein — archived recording (heather kerr) I felt so powerless. I didn’t think anyone would believe me. I was nobody. Why would they?

megan twohey

And so like so many high-profile cases of this kind —

archived recording (heather kerr) [CRYING] archived recording (gloria allred) It’s okay.

megan twohey

— there’s Gloria Allred with her arms around these women, insisting that she’s going to help give them voice. But what she’s not saying is that she and her firm had actually known that something was wrong for years and had actually helped keep it quiet.

[music]

michael barbaro

Yesterday, in Part 1, my colleagues Megan Twohey and Jodi Kantor reported on how Lisa Bloom switched over to defend Harvey Weinstein, and used her experience representing women to undermine them and to try to stop Megan and Jodi’s investigation into Weinstein. Today, in Part 2, after their investigation publishes, the role of Lisa’s mother, Gloria Allred. It’s Thursday, September 19.

jodi kantor

So the newsroom is suddenly also inundated by stories about Harvey Weinstein. We’re getting email after email, call after call. Our voicemail boxes are full on our cell phones, on our other phones. Messages are coming in through Facebook and Instagram, to the paper’s tip line. We have to call in more colleagues to help. It’s kind of surreal for us, because for so many months, we’ve been trying to get women to talk, and now they’re coming to us. And so we’re trying to understand as many of these stories as possible. We’re checking them out. We’re starting to publish more articles, and a lot of these stories are very revealing. But when it comes to Gloria Allred’s role, one in particular stands out.

megan twohey

It was actually a tip that came in via email from an email address, harveyrapist@gmail.com, titled, “Another person who was paid off by Harvey for near rape.” And the name that was provided was Ashley Matthau.

ashley matthau Hello? megan twohey Hi, Ashley. It’s Megan.

megan twohey

And I ultimately got Ashley on the phone.

ashley matthau Hey, how are you? megan twohey I’m good. How are you doing? ashley matthau I’m doing better. Thanks. megan twohey Good. O.K., well, listen. There’s a ton of —

michael barbaro

And you called Ashley back to talk to her for this story.

megan twohey

Right.

megan twohey Anyway, I’m just so grateful to be able to reconnect with you. So — ashley matthau Oh, thank you. megan twohey Yeah. ashley matthau Me too.

megan twohey

And she started to tell me the story about what had happened to her in 2004.

ashley matthau Well, I was dancing in a movie called “Dirty Dancing: Havana Nights,” and it was in Puerto Rico. And I met Harvey on set there. He came there to visit one day.

megan twohey

She was working as a backup dancer in one of Weinstein’s movies.

ashley matthau And he came up to me to talk about future projects and stuff like that, yeah.

megan twohey

I mean, it’s going to sound familiar now — basically badgered into a work meeting at a hotel room.

ashley matthau And he was there with his assistant at the time. She was around my age, and I felt a little more comfortable because I thought she was going to be there the whole time. He wasn’t going to do anything with someone else in the room. And then she shut the door, and I went in the room by myself. megan twohey And so you don’t have to — you don’t have to spell out everything that happened once you guys were in the hotel room. I’m not going to —

megan twohey

She says that what happened once the door was closed was terrifying. She says that he basically kind of pushed her down on the bed and masturbated over her.

ashley matthau So I was just really terrified. I just felt like trash. megan twohey And when you got back to California, who did you tell about what had happened? ashley matthau I talked to Charlie, my fiancé at the time. He was very upset, but he suggested to talk to Gloria Allred and to kind of stand up for myself.

michael barbaro

So he immediately thinks of Gloria.

megan twohey

Yes. She’s the first person that comes to mind. He has seen her on TV. He has seen her by the sides of victims recounting their stories through tears. And he really says, I think if anybody can help you, it’s Gloria Allred.

megan twohey So what did you do? What was your first interaction? Did you pick up the phone and call Gloria or — ashley matthau Yeah, we talked to Gloria. And Gloria, I think, was busy at the time, so she referred me to John West at her firm.

megan twohey

Who counseled Ashley that her best option was to accept a secret settlement.

ashley matthau They offered a $125,000 settlement, and John advised me just to take it. You’re not really strong enough to kind of go up against him, and so that’s what I ended up doing.

michael barbaro

Meaning an agreement in which the victim will accept money and everybody will basically agree not to talk about it anymore.

megan twohey

Exactly right.

megan twohey Were there any other sort of stipulations or clauses in the settlement that you recall? ashley matthau I remember them saying that they wanted me to talk about Harvey in a good light and that I only just saw him on the set. He was a great person to work for. I couldn’t say anything negative about him or the situation.

megan twohey

She is legally prohibited from ever talking about what happened ever again. The restrictive clauses that go along with these settlements are remarkable. Women oftentimes can’t tell their husbands. They can’t tell their colleagues. If they want to see a therapist, the therapist has to sign a confidentiality clause.

michael barbaro

Wow.

megan twohey

They have to turn over any evidence, any documentation they have of what’s happened.

ashley matthau I wasn’t happy about that, but I guess I felt like it was really my only option, and John told me it was really my only option. megan twohey So 13 years pass. Tell me what you’re thinking when you see the news about Harvey Weinstein break in October 2017. ashley matthau I was just blown away and shocked and kind of numb. I was really surprised at the amount of women that he did that to. It put all of the puzzles together. megan twohey And did you see in that first week, like, within days of that story breaking, did you see Gloria Allred going out in front of the TV cameras and saying that she would represent Weinstein victims? ashley matthau Yes, which is funny because she didn’t really have the time back in 2004. But then all of a sudden, once it was a news story, then she — what was she representing, like, 14 or something? megan twohey I’m not sure what the specific number was, but it was interesting that she was offering to represent victims but not making any mention that she had been aware of you. ashley matthau Yes. That really upset me.

michael barbaro

So why is Ashley telling you this, and even how is she able to tell you this?

megan twohey

Well, she’s not legally able to tell me this. She is technically breaking her settlement in this moment as she’s starting to tell me everything that’s happened. She is deciding that she’s willing to face the legal risks because she feels that strongly about telling the world about what happened to her. So she tells me that she actually gets on the phone with Gloria Allred herself.

ashley matthau I called Gloria’s office, and I talked to John, letting him know that my therapist said it would be kind of healing and good to come forward. And he said that he couldn’t talk to me about it, that I would have to talk to Gloria. And she got on the phone with me when she was in New York. It was, like, 9:00 p.m. in New York time. And Gloria started the conversation with, do you realize how lucky you are to be on the phone with me while I’m in New York at 9:00 p.m. from my hotel room? I deal with a lot of high-profile people. I was just blown away by that. So I explained to her the way I was feeling, and I felt like now, knowing all the stuff that I knew, that I felt like it was the right thing to do. And she advised me against it. I had asked her why, and she said because of the N.D.A. and that he could sue. And I said, yeah, but I feel like back then, I didn’t know the things that I know now. And she goes, well, you’re willing to take that risk? Are you and Charlie rich? How much money do you have? And I was like, uh, I don’t — it was just a really weird conversation.

michael barbaro

Megan, tell me if I have this correct. At the same time that Allred is telling Ashley not to come forward as a victim of Harvey Weinstein in the wake of your investigation, she is publicly representing women who have come forward since your investigation published with new accusations against Weinstein.

megan twohey

Right, and privately, she is counseling this other Weinstein accuser to stay quiet. She is telling her, if we get phone calls, we won’t even acknowledge that we represented you in this case.

ashley matthau And the other thing that kind of hurt or upset me was the fact that they wouldn’t say that they represented me. They wouldn’t even acknowledge that, but yet they have so many other clients after the fact, after it all broke out. So that upset me. megan twohey Did you think that she thought that she or her firm would lose money if you broke the settlement? I think I recall you saying that they had taken a 40 percent cut of the payment that was made to you. ashley matthau Yeah, they took a 40 percent cut. I don’t really know how that works. Maybe she felt like she would lose money on it. Yeah. I don’t really know what the reason was. I thought it was either that or it was either something to do with her knowing about this whole Weinstein thing back in 2004 and her being the top women’s rights activist and being known for that and having that reputation. I thought that she would be behind me, especially since she knew a lot about the case and was representing people — other people. megan twohey Did that change your perception of Gloria? ashley matthau Oh yeah, definitely. I felt like she wanted basically all the media attention. Like it — once it became a big story, then she wanted to be a part of it. But when it was not in front of the cameras, it was something that she didn’t.

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michael barbaro

So what are you thinking at this point?

megan twohey

You know, it’s complicated. On the one hand, I know that these secret settlements exist and that lawyers like Gloria Allred have been involved in them, and I recognize that victims should receive financial compensation for what’s happened to them. But on the other hand, I’m also realizing more and more that, by negotiating and participating in these types of secret settlements, that Gloria Allred has basically helped Harvey Weinstein cover his tracks. These secret settlements basically erase any evidence of, in his case, a very long pattern of alleged predation.

jodi kantor

And look, not all of these cases are Harvey Weinstein situations where you have a secret settlement followed by another allegation followed by a secret settlement followed by another allegation. But if we look in Gloria Allred’s case file, we do see that she did help silence an alleged victim of Bill O’Reilly’s and a victim of Larry Nassar’s.

michael barbaro

In addition to a victim of Harvey Weinstein.

jodi kantor

Yes.

megan twohey Looking at it now, knowing everything you know, what do you think about these types of secret settlements and their role in sexual harassment and sexual assault cases? ashley matthau Now, knowing what I know, I don’t think they’re right. I think it makes the assaulter able to do it to other people and hide it. And the thing that you would think with the lawyers would be that they would protect you and to — you don’t feel comfortable to come forward and to go against these people, especially someone like Harvey. So you feel like that’s your only option. I mean, that’s not the only thing that helped Harvey, but I don’t think it’s a good idea. megan twohey Well, thank you so much, Ashley, truly. ashley matthau Thank you.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Megan, Jodi, the obvious question in all of this would be why would Gloria Allred do this, this woman that we think of as an outspoken champion of women?

jodi kantor

Because this is actually pretty standard. There are women signing these kinds of secret settlements every single day. This is more or less the way we deal with sexual harassment in this country. Remember that the system for getting justice or redress in these cases is very, very complicated. To bring a case to court can take years. It can be expensive and draining. You can ruin your reputation. You can be branded a traitor or a tattletale. Even if you win in court, the damages are capped at a couple of hundred thousand dollars. So there are lots of individual scenarios in which this really does look like the best available option. I wonder if part of what she represents in doing this work — and other lawyers too — I wonder if they represent what women were willing to literally settle for for a long time, that this was the best you could get. That if something bad happened to you, you could hopefully walk away with some money. You could walk away with your dignity intact. Because for a long time, it really was presumed that this was something shameful. This was something you wouldn’t want anyone to know. And it’s only been pretty recently that that idea has started to change.

megan twohey

I have actually spoken to Gloria Allred about this issue more than once over the last couple years, and she does, in fact, make a lot of the arguments that Jodi just spelled out on why these things serve her clients and why they’d want them. She also, in our last conversation, acknowledged that some of her clients actually don’t want secrecy. She said that a client will say, I want to be compensated. This is a significant amount you’ve been able to achieve for me. I’m very happy with that, but why should I have to keep secret? And she acknowledged that she herself has often talked the women into it, talked the clients into it, saying, that’s because that powerful figure wants peace, wants to end it, and wants to move on in the same way that you want to move on.

jodi kantor

And that’s the essence of the problem. Are these secret settlements giving women some compensation for harm that they’ve experienced? Sure. Are they solving the problem of sexual harassment in this country? Absolutely not.

megan twohey

Are they, in fact, allowing perpetrators to go on and harm other people?

michael barbaro

And it seems like based on your reporting, we know that, in some cases, they are.

jodi kantor

Correct.

archived recording I was surprised when you decided to represent Harvey Weinstein. Tell us why. archived recording (lisa bloom) Well, that is the question a lot of people are asking.

michael barbaro

So catch us up on Gloria Allred and her daughter Lisa Bloom. When we left off with Lisa, she was facing tremendous blowback for her role in representing Harvey Weinstein.

megan twohey

Yes, and almost immediately, she changed messaging.

archived recording (lisa bloom) O.K., so first, let me say I very much regret ever being involved in this. I’m mortified that I was connected with him in any way. And all the people who have reached out to me to say, Lisa, we’re hurt. We’re disappointed in you. I get it, and I’m very, very sorry.

megan twohey

She said that she had been unaware of all of the serious allegations against him, that she had only tried to help him see the error of his ways, but that it had been actually a grave error of judgment on her part and that she was going to return to working with only women 100 percent of the time.

archived recording (lisa bloom) One of the lessons for this in me is — I’ve talked to everybody in my law firm. We are no longer ever going to represent somebody accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault. They’re entitled to lawyers, but it’s not going to be us.

megan twohey

And since then, she really has, in fact, worked to rehabilitate her image. She’s represented women in a variety of high-profile cases, including —

archived recording Lisa Bloom is with me. She’s a victim’s rights attorney. She’s representing two of Epstein’s accusers. Lisa, thank you so much —

megan twohey

— the case of Jeffrey Epstein. She is now, at least last time we checked, representing two of Epstein’s alleged victims.

archived recording (lisa bloom) They worked as young waitresses at a coffee shop. They were also —

michael barbaro

Megan, that is genuinely shocking. Everything you have told us here paints a portrait of a woman who used her credibility as a defender of women to try to undermine them in defense of Harvey Weinstein. And now you’re saying that she’s getting new clients who want her to defend them against the Harvey Weinsteins of the world. How does work?

megan twohey

Well, nobody has known about all of those sort of secret records that spelled out exactly the type of work that she did for Weinstein, the memo in which she spelled out all of the different underhanded tactics that she was going to use to help him go after his accusers, all of the explicit work that she did to help him evade scrutiny and cover up women’s allegations. We are just coming forward with that information now.

michael barbaro

So in reality, we don’t know what’s going to happen here when it comes to Lisa Bloom and her representations.

megan twohey

No, this is just starting to play out.

michael barbaro

And what about Gloria?

jodi kantor

Gloria Allred has continued to play basically the same role on the public stage that she has for a long time. She’s viewed as a fierce champion for women.

archived recording It is an honor and a privilege to present this award for her commitment to empowering women in the legal —

jodi kantor

She gets honors all the time.

archived recording Gloria, we all thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

jodi kantor

There was just a Netflix documentary that was made about her that was very laudatory.

archived recording 1 (gloria allred) This has got to end, and it needs to end right now. archived recording 2 (gloria allred) There is a war on women. Women depend on me to be strong and to assert and defend their rights.

jodi kantor

And in fact, as we head into the Harvey Weinstein trial, which is supposed to start in January —

archived recording Actress Natassia Malthe joins me now, along with her attorney Gloria Allred, who is representing several women accusing Weinstein of sexual misconduct.

jodi kantor

— she’s actually going to be the lawyer for two of the alleged victims.

megan twohey

We did ask both women to come on the show for interviews, and Gloria Allred said that she was not available to do that within our time frame. And Lisa Bloom sent us an email.

jodi kantor

And this is what she wrote back. “Jodi and Megan, congratulations on the book. I appreciate your reaching out, but due to my heavy litigation caseload, I’m not available for this interview. Best wishes on ‘The Daily.’ I enjoy the podcast. Best, Lisa Bloom.”

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michael barbaro

Much of the information in this episode was reported by Megan and Jodi for their new book, “She Said.” We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today. In Israel, the full results of national elections left Benny Gantz and his politically moderate party with slightly greater support in the Israeli Parliament than Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his conservative party, but neither man with enough support to form a majority coalition on their own.

archived recording (benjamin netanyahu) [SPEAKING HEBREW]

michael barbaro