ledarsi Profile Joined September 2010 United States 475 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-04 10:21:34 #1



There has been a great deal of discussion in general terms about buffing the Siege Tank in order to make positional mech play functional. However, because of the possibility of backlash, I think many people are reluctant to talk specific numbers about how much of a buff the tank actually requires. In this post I will propose specific numbers for a buffed tank.



Currently the SC2 Siege Tank does 35 (+15 Armored) damage in Siege Mode. The obvious comparison to the Brood War tank bears repeating. The BW tank costs 150m/100g, 2 supply, and shoots in siege mode for 70 Explosive damage, also always dealing full damage to Protoss shields.



Another unit worthy of comparison is the Disruptor, which is a Protoss positional unit with a similar resource cost and tech level to the Siege Tank. The Disruptor costs 150m/150g and 3 supply, and once every 21 seconds fires a projectile that splashes for 145 (+55 Shield) non-radial splash damage to every unit in the radius. Unlike the Siege Tank it does not need to siege up, and moves at a speedy 3.15 all the time.



Another vital point to note: the Siege Tank deals radial splash; the Siege Tank's splash damage decreases with distance from the center of the blast. Diagram:



The Disruptor does not have this disadvantage, and deals its full 145 damage hit to every unit affected. What this means for the Siege tank is that most of the clustered units which are damaged by the tank's shot are actually taking only 25% of the listed damage value.





Buff Numbers



All of this assumes that the ridiculous tank lift in the Medivac is removed. You should have to unsiege, load into the Medivac, drop, and then siege again, like the tank was meant to do.



That said, first, the tank's instantaneous-hit weapon should be changed to a projectile with a travel time, and its range increased.



Suppose the tank shot projectile flies at a speed of 26, and the weapon's range is increased to 15. Against a target enemy unit entering the tank's range at 15 distance from the tank, moving directly towards the tank at a speed of 4.0 (e.g. Zergling or Stalker), the tank's projectile will take 0.5 seconds to arrive before hitting the unit at 13 distance from the tank.



The primary purpose of this mechanical change is to make tanks overkill targets. A group of tanks parked right next to each other will all fire at this target unit during that 0.5 second window before the first set of projectiles kill the target. To avoid this, tanks should be spread out far enough apart that a target unit's movement does not cause so many tanks to fire at it in the time before the first shots kill it.



However, the most important change is to directly buff the tank's sieged damage. I propose that the tank's sieged damage be increased to 50 (+25 Armored).



This change will have the following damage effects:





Terran



Marine: 1 shot (2 with combat shield; unless +2 weapons upgrade on tank)

Marauder: 2 shots (was 3 shots)

Hellion: 2 shots (was 3 shots)

Hellbat: 3 shots (was 4 shots)

Siege Tank: 3 shots (was 4 shots)

Cyclone: 2 shots (was 3 shots)

Thor: 6 shots (was 8 shots)





Zerg



Zergling: 1 shot

Roach: 2 shots (was 3 shots)

Ravager: 3 shots [Armored: 2 shots (was 3 shots)]

Hydralisk: 2 shots (was 3 shots)

Lurker: 3 shots (was 4 shots)

Swarm Host: 3 shots (was 4 shots)

Locust: 1 shot

Ultralisk: 7 shots (was 10 shots)





Protoss



Zealot: 3 shots (was 5 shots)

Stalker: 3 shots (was 4 shots)

Adept: 3 shots (was 5 shots)

Immortals: 4 shots, not counting Barrier (+3 shots)

Disruptor: 3 shots (was 5 shots)

Colossus: 5 shots (was 7 shots)

Archon: 8 shots (was 11 shots)



This design of the tank is undoubtedly highly effective against units like Roaches and Stalkers. However, there are abundant counters available to both Zerg and Protoss which can be used to counter a siege line. Mutalisks, Vipers with Abduct and Blinding Cloud, Zealot bombs, Immortals, Tempests, etc.





TvZ Mech Gameplay



This tank change has absolutely no effect regarding Ling/Bling/Muta. Tanks already 1-shot the only units it can hit in this matchup, and in the 50% splash radius it still takes 2 hits to kill zerglings and banelings. Tanks are still not really that effective against large groups of Zerglings, especially now that a single Zergling can potentially waste an entire tank salvo.



What this tank change does affect is Roach/Ravager. Tanks will 2-shot both of these units, giving Terran a method of forcing the Roach/Ravager to exercise some tactics rather than always directly attacking. A group of four tanks' overlapping splash can kill about 3-5 Roaches in one salvo, forcing the Roach/Ravager to be a bit more tactical than always attacking directly into the Terran.



Most likely Zergs will respond to a stronger tank by using Corrosive Bile from beyond the tanks' range to attack targets which can be reached, and attacking where the tanks are not present, possibly even using burrow move to ambush tanks from inside their minimum range where they cannot fight back.



This changes when Vipers hit the field, since Abduct is almost a guaranteed kill on a tank when used correctly, enabling a Zerg to gradually thin the ranks of a tank line by picking off tanks using Vipers one at a time, until eventually the tank line is weak enough to crush. Also, Blinding Cloud completely disables an affected tank, or several tanks sieged too close together, since its range is reduced to below its minimum range. This can be used in advance of a big assault, or to facilitate a snipe using other units, such as disabling some tanks so a Corrosive Bile salvo can pick one off.



Also of note, tanks will also 2-shot Hydralisks. And of course tanks outrange Lurkers, again a unit they are intended to counter. Ultralisks can potentially directly assault into a tank line in sufficient numbers, but this is a dangerous gamble that is probably best reserved for desperate situations only.





TvP Mech Gameplay



TvP is where this tank buff will have the most pronounced effect. The dramatic reduction in the number of hits required to kill units like Zealots and Stalkers (to the same number of shots as BW) will greatly enhance the tank's viability in this matchup.



However, Protoss also has a wide variety of strong counters. The most obvious is a Stargate transition including Tempests, Void Rays, or Carriers. This will force a large number of Vikings since the Siege Tanks are useless against these units. However, Stalkers counter Vikings, and Siege Tanks counter Stalkers. The result is that the Siege Tanks can create a safe airspace for the Vikings to be protected from Stalker attacks, and the Vikings protect the Siege Tanks from being attacked by Tempests and other flying units.



Gateway units also have some play. Adepts can quickly phase inside the Siege Tank's minimum range, allowing them to attack the Siege Tanks with impunity, and forcing Siege Tanks in groups to kill each other with splash. Stalkers are also highly maneuverable, particularly with Blink, and can go around tank lines to reach expansions, pick off isolated or relocating tanks, and are still useful even though they should never directly assault a tank line without overwhelming force.



The Warp Prism also deserves special mention here. The Warp Prism is ideal for highly mobile, multi-pronged aggression, such as going for their mineral line instead of directly assaulting a tank line outside your base. Moreover, the Warp Prism can drop units directly on top of tanks, causing them to kill each other. Zealot bombs are the unit of choice in BW. But in SC2 I strongly suspect that Immortals are a better bomb choice; they deal 50 damage to Armored units like tanks (4 shot kill), and their Barrier ability makes them effectively invincible for a brief period. I suspect Protoss players will load Immortals into Warp Prisms and drop them directly onto a tank line, destroying a tank, and picking up again to wait for the Barrier cooldown to refresh.



It is also a possibility to directly attack into the tanks using Immortals or Archons. These units can absorb a lot of tank fire before going down, but are expensive and this assault will always result in casualties. Just as with Ultralisks, this is a dangerous move that requires large numbers to succeed, and it's always better to pick off tanks by some other method before going for the direct assault.





TvT Mech Gameplay



It is unlikely TvT will be much affected, because both sides have access to the same tank. The most significant change is that Siege Tanks' increased damage will 2-shot Marauders instead of 3-shotting them. Although in the 100% damage radius, Marines are killed in 1 shot, they die in 2 shots in the 50% area, 3 shots with combat shield, at least until the mech player gets +3 weapons. Marines will indeed take more damage, so in a Marine-Tank fight the tanks are dealing more damage. But in a straight tank fight the number of shots is similar.



Medivac mobility allows a bio player to avoid engaging a tank army if they wish, such as going for the mineral line or production facilities. Increasing the Siege Tank's power in a straight up fight allows smaller groups of tanks to cover more places on the map, rather than only one large group, which the bio player never engages. Bombing a tank line is still an option, but is seldom done in TvT because it isn't necessary when you can directly kill their base or expansions instead.





Conclusion



These two changes should make the Siege Tank a powerful positional unit again. Like the Disruptor, it will push enemy forces away beyond its range, and force them to engage with caution and special tactics rather than always fully engage in a pitched battle. Making the Siege Tank's weapon a projectile will cause it to overkill, and increasing its damage will enable a smaller number of tanks on the field to effectively zone out enemy units from entering its range.



However a tank buff alone is not sufficient to make Factory ground mech viable again. The Factory also needs a unit that is an anti-air specialist, which will enable a player with many Factories to respond to a huge air transition. Without a unit from the Factory that can do this job, Terran players will still avoid making many Factories, and will still make mainly Barracks and Starports instead.





Extension Mod



By popular request I have created an extension mod with the changes discussed in this thread. Specifically, the tank now fires a projectile on a parabolic trajectory, dealing 50 (+25 Armored) damage. Siege Tech research is back. And the Cyclone is now a dedicated anti-air specialist, only attacking flying units, but shooting on the move for 12 (+12 Light) damage.



Also, the Raven's Point Defense Drone now blocks tank shots, and I have also changed PDD to give it a firing cooldown of 0.2 seconds per shot, but they also last 90 seconds. I have my fingers crossed that bio with PDD is at least competitive with tanks. I have a sneaking suspicion PDD is way too strong against tanks and bio will roflstomp tanks with PDD support.



Complete changes:



To play the mod, look under multiplayer custom games (not arcade) click on "Create with Mod" and search for "ledarsi Mech Mod."



I make absolutely no claims to this mod being the epitome of balance. Undoubtedly numbers and mechanics will need fine-tuning. But hopefully by playing around with it, people will realize that strong mech actually leads to interesting games, and not turtle games the way skyterran does. There has been a great deal of discussion in general terms about buffing the Siege Tank in order to make positional mech play functional. However, because of the possibility of backlash, I think many people are reluctant to talk specific numbers about how much of a buff the tank actually requires. In this post I will propose specific numbers for a buffed tank.Currently the SC2 Siege Tank does 35 (+15 Armored) damage in Siege Mode. The obvious comparison to the Brood War tank bears repeating. The BW tank costs 150m/100g, 2 supply, and shoots in siege mode for 70 Explosive damage, also always dealing full damage to Protoss shields.Another unit worthy of comparison is the Disruptor, which is a Protoss positional unit with a similar resource cost and tech level to the Siege Tank. The Disruptor costs 150m/150g and 3 supply, and once every 21 seconds fires a projectile that splashes for 145 (+55 Shield) non-radial splash damage to every unit in the radius. Unlike the Siege Tank it does not need to siege up, and moves at a speedy 3.15 all the time.Another vital point to note: the Siege Tank deals radial splash; the Siege Tank's splash damage decreases with distance from the center of the blast. Diagram:The Disruptor does not have this disadvantage, and deals its full 145 damage hit to every unit affected. What this means for the Siege tank is that most of the clustered units which are damaged by the tank's shot are actually taking only 25% of the listed damage value.All of this assumes that the ridiculous tank lift in the Medivac is removed. You should have to unsiege, load into the Medivac, drop, and then siege again, like the tank was meant to do.That said, first, the tank's instantaneous-hit weapon should be changed to a projectile with a travel time, and its range increased.Suppose the tank shot projectile flies at a speed of 26, and the weapon's range is increased to 15. Against a target enemy unit entering the tank's range at 15 distance from the tank, moving directly towards the tank at a speed of 4.0 (e.g. Zergling or Stalker), the tank's projectile will take 0.5 seconds to arrive before hitting the unit at 13 distance from the tank.The primary purpose of this mechanical change is to make tanks overkill targets. A group of tanks parked right next to each other will all fire at this target unit during that 0.5 second window before the first set of projectiles kill the target. To avoid this, tanks should be spread out far enough apart that a target unit's movement does not cause so many tanks to fire at it in the time before the first shots kill it.However, the most important change is to directly buff the tank's sieged damage. I propose that the tank's sieged damage be increased to 50 (+25 Armored).This change will have the following damage effects:Marine: 1 shot (2 with combat shield; unless +2 weapons upgrade on tank)Marauder: 2 shots (was 3 shots)Hellion: 2 shots (was 3 shots)Hellbat: 3 shots (was 4 shots)Siege Tank: 3 shots (was 4 shots)Cyclone: 2 shots (was 3 shots)Thor: 6 shots (was 8 shots)Zergling: 1 shotRoach: 2 shots (was 3 shots)Ravager: 3 shots [Armored: 2 shots (was 3 shots)]Hydralisk: 2 shots (was 3 shots)Lurker: 3 shots (was 4 shots)Swarm Host: 3 shots (was 4 shots)Locust: 1 shotUltralisk: 7 shots (was 10 shots)Zealot: 3 shots (was 5 shots)Stalker: 3 shots (was 4 shots)Adept: 3 shots (was 5 shots)Immortals: 4 shots, not counting Barrier (+3 shots)Disruptor: 3 shots (was 5 shots)Colossus: 5 shots (was 7 shots)Archon: 8 shots (was 11 shots)This design of the tank is undoubtedly highly effective against units like Roaches and Stalkers. However, there are abundant counters available to both Zerg and Protoss which can be used to counter a siege line. Mutalisks, Vipers with Abduct and Blinding Cloud, Zealot bombs, Immortals, Tempests, etc.This tank change has absolutely no effect regarding Ling/Bling/Muta. Tanks already 1-shot the only units it can hit in this matchup, and in the 50% splash radius it still takes 2 hits to kill zerglings and banelings. Tanks are still not really that effective against large groups of Zerglings, especially now that a single Zergling can potentially waste an entire tank salvo.What this tank change does affect is Roach/Ravager. Tanks will 2-shot both of these units, giving Terran a method of forcing the Roach/Ravager to exercise some tactics rather than always directly attacking. A group of four tanks' overlapping splash can kill about 3-5 Roaches in one salvo, forcing the Roach/Ravager to be a bit more tactical than always attacking directly into the Terran.Most likely Zergs will respond to a stronger tank by using Corrosive Bile from beyond the tanks' range to attack targets which can be reached, and attacking where the tanks are not present, possibly even using burrow move to ambush tanks from inside their minimum range where they cannot fight back.This changes when Vipers hit the field, since Abduct is almost a guaranteed kill on a tank when used correctly, enabling a Zerg to gradually thin the ranks of a tank line by picking off tanks using Vipers one at a time, until eventually the tank line is weak enough to crush. Also, Blinding Cloud completely disables an affected tank, or several tanks sieged too close together, since its range is reduced to below its minimum range. This can be used in advance of a big assault, or to facilitate a snipe using other units, such as disabling some tanks so a Corrosive Bile salvo can pick one off.Also of note, tanks will also 2-shot Hydralisks. And of course tanks outrange Lurkers, again a unit they are intended to counter. Ultralisks can potentially directly assault into a tank line in sufficient numbers, but this is a dangerous gamble that is probably best reserved for desperate situations only.TvP is where this tank buff will have the most pronounced effect. The dramatic reduction in the number of hits required to kill units like Zealots and Stalkers (to the same number of shots as BW) will greatly enhance the tank's viability in this matchup.However, Protoss also has a wide variety of strong counters. The most obvious is a Stargate transition including Tempests, Void Rays, or Carriers. This will force a large number of Vikings since the Siege Tanks are useless against these units. However, Stalkers counter Vikings, and Siege Tanks counter Stalkers. The result is that the Siege Tanks can create a safe airspace for the Vikings to be protected from Stalker attacks, and the Vikings protect the Siege Tanks from being attacked by Tempests and other flying units.Gateway units also have some play. Adepts can quickly phase inside the Siege Tank's minimum range, allowing them to attack the Siege Tanks with impunity, and forcing Siege Tanks in groups to kill each other with splash. Stalkers are also highly maneuverable, particularly with Blink, and can go around tank lines to reach expansions, pick off isolated or relocating tanks, and are still useful even though they should never directly assault a tank line without overwhelming force.The Warp Prism also deserves special mention here. The Warp Prism is ideal for highly mobile, multi-pronged aggression, such as going for their mineral line instead of directly assaulting a tank line outside your base. Moreover, the Warp Prism can drop units directly on top of tanks, causing them to kill each other. Zealot bombs are the unit of choice in BW. But in SC2 I strongly suspect that Immortals are a better bomb choice; they deal 50 damage to Armored units like tanks (4 shot kill), and their Barrier ability makes them effectively invincible for a brief period. I suspect Protoss players will load Immortals into Warp Prisms and drop them directly onto a tank line, destroying a tank, and picking up again to wait for the Barrier cooldown to refresh.It is also a possibility to directly attack into the tanks using Immortals or Archons. These units can absorb a lot of tank fire before going down, but are expensive and this assault will always result in casualties. Just as with Ultralisks, this is a dangerous move that requires large numbers to succeed, and it's always better to pick off tanks by some other method before going for the direct assault.It is unlikely TvT will be much affected, because both sides have access to the same tank. The most significant change is that Siege Tanks' increased damage will 2-shot Marauders instead of 3-shotting them. Although in the 100% damage radius, Marines are killed in 1 shot, they die in 2 shots in the 50% area, 3 shots with combat shield, at least until the mech player gets +3 weapons. Marines will indeed take more damage, so in a Marine-Tank fight the tanks are dealing more damage. But in a straight tank fight the number of shots is similar.Medivac mobility allows a bio player to avoid engaging a tank army if they wish, such as going for the mineral line or production facilities. Increasing the Siege Tank's power in a straight up fight allows smaller groups of tanks to cover more places on the map, rather than only one large group, which the bio player never engages. Bombing a tank line is still an option, but is seldom done in TvT because it isn't necessary when you can directly kill their base or expansions instead.These two changes should make the Siege Tank a powerful positional unit again. Like the Disruptor, it will push enemy forces away beyond its range, and force them to engage with caution and special tactics rather than always fully engage in a pitched battle. Making the Siege Tank's weapon a projectile will cause it to overkill, and increasing its damage will enable a smaller number of tanks on the field to effectively zone out enemy units from entering its range.However a tank buff alone is not sufficient to make Factory ground mech viable again. The Factory also needs a unit that is an anti-air specialist, which will enable a player with many Factories to respond to a huge air transition. Without a unit from the Factory that can do this job, Terran players will still avoid making many Factories, and will still make mainly Barracks and Starports instead.By popular request I have created an extension mod with the changes discussed in this thread. Specifically, the tank now fires a projectile on a parabolic trajectory, dealing 50 (+25 Armored) damage. Siege Tech research is back. And the Cyclone is now a dedicated anti-air specialist, only attacking flying units, but shooting on the move for 12 (+12 Light) damage.Also, the Raven's Point Defense Drone now blocks tank shots, and I have also changed PDD to give it a firing cooldown of 0.2 seconds per shot, but they also last 90 seconds. I have my fingers crossed that bio with PDD is at least competitive with tanks. I have a sneaking suspicion PDD is way too strong against tanks and bio will roflstomp tanks with PDD support.Complete changes: pastebin.com To play the mod, look under multiplayer custom games (not arcade) click on "Create with Mod" and search for "ledarsi Mech Mod."I make absolutely no claims to this mod being the epitome of balance. Undoubtedly numbers and mechanics will need fine-tuning. But hopefully by playing around with it, people will realize that strong mech actually leads to interesting games, and not turtle games the way skyterran does. "First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."