Part of the salt against Bayonetta and Cloud comes from smash 4 players being absolutely obsessed with followups in advantage. You don't always need to hit your opponent to gain an advantage.



It's totally baffling how most people will complain that you can't punish Bayonetta for using Witch Twist if she just resets to the ledge. The fact that she had to reset to the ledge is itself the punish. If this feels overpowered to you, the reason it feels overpowered is that you're really bad at converting your positional advantage into damage/the stock, allowing Bayonetta to get off the ledge for free.



It makes no sense for smashers to be this bad at such a key area of the game, because positional advantage matters more in smash 4 than in almost every single other fighting game--yet players of other fighting games like SF or Tekken actually know that just being able to walk forward while your opponent walks back often means more than damage ever could, while for smashers it's all about "combos."