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Member Back to Top Post by fred on INTRODUCTION

In MW3 I measured the sway speeds and magnitudes of pretty much every weapon for which it would be important. I used a variety of gunsights and stances. The methodology used required me to find a 1 pixel width, high contrast vertical element of a map, then line up the sight very precisely and measure three things:

- Sway magnitude (left right distance measured with precision ruler, scaled post processing for zoom level appropriate to the optic)

- Sway speed in terms of Center Crossings Per Minute (CCPM). This is the number of times the weapon swayed across my 1 pixel center-line per minute (in either direction)

- Rate at which the sway built up. Snipers and certain MP have immediate heavy sway, others take a standard time to build up.



SWAY RATES

For every weapon measured the sway rate in center crossings per minute (CCPM) was very consistent between gunsights. For example, a M4A1 is 40 CCPM with irons, RDS, Holo or ACOG. There were wide variations these base sway rates including: 13,17,20,25,30,32,40,45,60.

Exceptions to Sway Rates

Put an ACOG on a sniper and it halves the normal 40 CCPM to 20.

Put a Thermal on a normal weapon and it doubles the CCPM. Example: MP7 goes from 40 -> 80.

Put a Thermal on a sniper and it is the normal 40 CCPM.



SWAY DISTANCES

For normal weapons the sway magnitude left to right distance amount consistently scaled between the different gunsights depending on their magnification. For example, a LMG's apparent sway was increased going from irons (1.2X) => RDS (1.35X) => Holo (1.5X) => ACOG (2.4X). However, when you normalize the sway for zoom they are usually about the same.



STANCE MODIFIERS

Unlike in many previous COD titles weapon sways are consistently reduced by stance modifiers for being crouched or prone. Examples from the past where stance was important were the scoped Arisaka, G11 LPS/VZ, and the super swell COD4 G36c. Note that the sway rate in CCPM is NOT effected just the distance amount ...

Assault Rifles

- Crouch: no effect

- Prone: approx > 50% sway magnitude reduction

SMG

- Crouch:approx 25% sway magnitude reduction

- Prone: approx 50% sway magnitude reduction

LMG

- Crouch:approx 30% sway magnitude reduction

- Prone: approx 50% sway magnitude reduction

Sniper

- Crouch:approx 10% sway magnitude reduction

- Prone: approx 50% sway magnitude reduction



SPECIFIC WEAPONS by TYPE

There are TWO numbers next to weapon:

(normalized distance / sway rate in CCPM)

Higher numbers are worse.



Assault Rifles

M4A1 6.7 / 40 <-- worst

M16 4.4 / 40

SCAR 6.7 / 25

CM901 6.7 / 25

Type 95 4.4 / 40

G36C 6.7 / 25

ACR 6.7 / 25

MK14 4.4 / 20 <-- best

AK47 6.7 / 16.5 <-- best

FAD 6.7 / 40 <-- worst



SMGs

MP5 5.33 / 60

UMP 5.33 / 40 <-- good

P90 6.67 / 40

PP90M1 5.33 / 45

MP7 5.33 / 40 <-- good



LMGs

L86 4.0 / 32 <- best

MG36 5.33 / 40

MK46 6.7 / 20

PKP 5.33 / 32

M60 8.0 / 40 <- worst



Sniper Rifles

All are 40 CCPM rate; and there is no sway latency time ... they swing hard the moment you ADS.

The ratio of sway magnitude is about 2 to 3 between the Good and Bad below:

Good:

AS50 with standard sight 7.1 / 40 <- best

Dragunov 7.7 /40

RSASS 7.7/ 40

Bad:

L118A1 ~11 / 40

MSR ~11 / 40

Barrett ~11 / 40

AS50 with VZ ~11 / 40



Miscellaneous

Skorp None

MP9 None

FMG9 6.7 / 45 but immediate full sway

G18 6.7 / 45 but immediate full sway

Magnum 3 / 30

SMAW 6 / 13

RPG 6 / 13



PRACTICAL SUGGESTION

For weapons where the sway builds up gradually (all AR, SMG, LMG) you can quickly "reset" the sway to 0 by toggling the ADS button out then in very quickly. This technique is highly recommended along with burst fire. However, you cannot do this for weapons with immediate sway like snipers and certain machine pistols.



RELATED TO SWAY



Stability Proficiency

Sway Distance = 0.75

Sway Rate = 0.75 (in center crossings per minute)

(Examples: Barret VZ High 106=>79/40=>30, AS50 18=>13.5/40=>30)



Movement while ADS, Stalker and Sway

Movement superimposes wobbly "steps" on the weapon sway but it does not appear to actually effect it ... it appears to be independent. For example, an MP9 does not sway standing still but will "wobble" if you are moving.

Sway Distance ~= unchanged

Sway Rate = unchanged (in center crossings per minute)



MEASUREMENTS

I've got a spreadsheet again and you'll find some comparison measurements I made in COD4 and COD7. This stuff wasn't easy to measure and some inaccuracy has probably resulted. YMMV.

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Av5t-DE1i_xfdDBiejdUSzB4bzI5OEpwRTJiVHFKZlE&output=html

In MW3 I measured the sway speeds and magnitudes of pretty much every weapon for which it would be important. I used a variety of gunsights and stances. The methodology used required me to find a 1 pixel width, high contrast vertical element of a map, then line up the sight very precisely and measure three things:- Sway magnitude (left right distance measured with precision ruler, scaled post processing for zoom level appropriate to the optic)- Sway speed in terms of Center Crossings Per Minute (CCPM). This is the number of times the weapon swayed across my 1 pixel center-line per minute (in either direction)- Rate at which the sway built up. Snipers and certain MP have immediate heavy sway, others take a standard time to build up.For every weapon measured the sway rate in center crossings per minute (CCPM) was very consistent between gunsights. For example, a M4A1 is 40 CCPM with irons, RDS, Holo or ACOG. There were wide variations these base sway rates including: 13,17,20,25,30,32,40,45,60.Put an ACOG on a sniper and it halves the normal 40 CCPM to 20.Put a Thermal on a normal weapon and it doubles the CCPM. Example: MP7 goes from 40 -> 80.Put a Thermal on a sniper and it is the normal 40 CCPM.For normal weapons the sway magnitude left to right distance amount consistently scaled between the different gunsights depending on their magnification. For example, a LMG's apparent sway was increased going from irons (1.2X) => RDS (1.35X) => Holo (1.5X) => ACOG (2.4X). However, when you normalize the sway for zoom they are usually about the same.Unlike in many previous COD titles weapon sways are consistently reduced by stance modifiers for being crouched or prone. Examples from the past where stance was important were the scoped Arisaka, G11 LPS/VZ, and the super swell COD4 G36c. Note that the sway rate in CCPM is NOT effected just the distance amount ...Assault Rifles- Crouch: no effect- Prone: approx > 50% sway magnitude reductionSMG- Crouch:approx 25% sway magnitude reduction- Prone: approx 50% sway magnitude reductionLMG- Crouch:approx 30% sway magnitude reduction- Prone: approx 50% sway magnitude reductionSniper- Crouch:approx 10% sway magnitude reduction- Prone: approx 50% sway magnitude reductionThere are TWO numbers next to weapon:(normalized distance / sway rate in CCPM)Higher numbers are worse.M4A1 6.7 / 40 79/40=>30, AS50 18=>13.5/40=>30)Movement superimposes wobbly "steps" on the weapon sway but it does not appear to actually effect it ... it appears to be independent. For example, an MP9 does not sway standing still but will "wobble" if you are moving.Sway Distance ~= unchangedSway Rate = unchanged (in center crossings per minute)I've got a spreadsheet again and you'll find some comparison measurements I made in COD4 and COD7. This stuff wasn't easy to measure and some inaccuracy has probably resulted. YMMV.

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Member Back to Top Post by dshunter on Thanks for the detailed info, fred. I have a rather unusual question about weapon sway that's sort of been nagging at me every now and then ever since CoD4. Does it stop the instant you start firing (hence the term "idle sway")? Or does the weapon reticule continue to move while firing and thus indirectly affect recoil? Not sure if there's any way to reliably test this, but maybe you could share your educated guess.

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Member Back to Top Post by fred on dshunter said: Thanks for the detailed info, fred. I have a rather unusual question about weapon sway that's sort of been nagging at me every now and then ever since CoD4. Does it stop the instant you start firing (hence the term "idle sway")? Or does the weapon reticule continue to move while firing and thus indirectly affect recoil? Not sure if there's any way to reliably test this, but maybe you could share your educated guess.



I am pretty sure the reticule continues to sway while firing and as long as you are ADS the sway movement is combined with the recoil motion.



Since most weapons have large recoil compared to sway it is hard to see. Try an RSASS kick with VZ sight to see for yourself. After each recoil it settles farther down the "stitching" idle sway path. I am pretty sure the reticule continues to sway while firing and as long as you are ADS the sway movement is combined with the recoil motion.Since most weapons have large recoil compared to sway it is hard to see. Try an RSASS kick with VZ sight to see for yourself. After each recoil it settles farther down the "stitching" idle sway path.

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Member Back to Top Post by fred on I did measure some more supplementary items related to sway and added them to the main post.



Stability Proficiency

Sway Distance = 0.75

Sway Rate = 0.75 (in center crossings per minute)

(Examples: Barret VZ High 106=>79/40=>30, AS50 18=>13.5/40=>30)



Movement while ADS, Stalker and Sway

Movement superimposes wobbly "steps" on the weapon sway but it does not appear to actually effect it ... it appears to be independent. For example, an MP9 does not sway standing still but will "wobble" if you are moving while ADS.

Sway Distance ~= unchanged

Sway Rate = unchanged (in center crossings per minute)



Does anyone know about the behavior of the 200ms "functional ADS delay" when you quickly ADS in and out to cancel sway while moving?



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Member Back to Top Post by fred on nablavector said:



One small thing concerning sniper, I am quite sure that when you crouch, your sway magnitude is reduced by more than 10% (it is probably around 30-40% (tested on AS5 and barrett on PC). Great post, many thanks for your work, it should be stickyed.One small thing concerning sniper, I am quite sure that when you crouch, your sway magnitude is reduced by more than 10% (it is probably around 30-40% (tested on AS5 and barrett on PC).



I tested on PS3, PC could be different. If you check my source document you will see why I chose approx 10% reduction as the figure. It was pretty consistent across multiple SRs, scopes and zooms. I tested on PS3, PC could be different. If you check my source document you will see why I chose approx 10% reduction as the figure. It was pretty consistent across multiple SRs, scopes and zooms.

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Member Back to Top Post by wittyscorpion on asasa said:



If this doesnt interest you, you don't belong here. It's just as useful as knowing hipfire values. And firerates. And damage. And reload speed.If this doesnt interest you, you don't belong here.



I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips.



One very useful thing I leant from fred's hard work: MP9 has no sway. Combined with MP9's surprisingly long effective 4HK range at 1343 (or around 32 meters, which is > all SMGs, M4A1, FAD, L86 LSW), RPM at 895, mag size at 32 (48 with extended mags), and headshot multiplier of 2.0x, it intrigues me as a very effective secondary weapon that could feel like an AR or LMG. The only thing to be concerned about is the high recoil. Maybe aim for the head from long range, use it like a MK14 for the 2 HK? I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips.One very useful thing I leant from fred's hard work: MP9 has no sway. Combined with MP9's surprisingly long effective 4HK range at 1343 (or around 32 meters, which is > all SMGs, M4A1, FAD, L86 LSW), RPM at 895, mag size at 32 (48 with extended mags), and headshot multiplier of 2.0x, it intrigues me as a very effective secondary weapon that could feel like an AR or LMG. The only thing to be concerned about is the high recoil. Maybe aim for the head from long range, use it like a MK14 for the 2 HK?

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Member Back to Top Post by iw5000 on wittyscorpion said: asasa said:



If this doesnt interest you, you don't belong here. It's just as useful as knowing hipfire values. And firerates. And damage. And reload speed.If this doesnt interest you, you don't belong here.



I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips.



One very useful thing I leant from fred's hard work: MP9 has no sway. Combined with MP9's surprisingly long effective 4HK range at 1343 (or around 32 meters, which is > all SMGs, M4A1, FAD, L86 LSW), RPM at 895, mag size at 32 (48 with extended mags), and headshot multiplier of 2.0x, it intrigues me as a very effective secondary weapon that could feel like an AR or LMG. The only thing to be concerned about is the high recoil. Maybe aim for the head from long range, use it like a MK14 for the 2 HK? I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips.One very useful thing I leant from fred's hard work: MP9 has no sway. Combined with MP9's surprisingly long effective 4HK range at 1343 (or around 32 meters, which is > all SMGs, M4A1, FAD, L86 LSW), RPM at 895, mag size at 32 (48 with extended mags), and headshot multiplier of 2.0x, it intrigues me as a very effective secondary weapon that could feel like an AR or LMG. The only thing to be concerned about is the high recoil. Maybe aim for the head from long range, use it like a MK14 for the 2 HK?



yes. How does one take this info, and find use from it?



MP9 has little sway. Ok? Now what? What do I do with this info? Not trying to be annoying, but I'm just trying to find a way to get use from this data. You know? Even WittySkorpion above, while stating the MP9 has little sway, really didn't answer what to do with that.



yes. How does one take this info, and find use from it?MP9 has little sway. Ok? Now what? What do I do with this info? Not trying to be annoying, but I'm just trying to find a way to get use from this data. You know? Even WittySkorpion above, while stating the MP9 has little sway, really didn't answer what to do with that.

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Member Back to Top Post by wittyscorpion on iw5000 said: wittyscorpion said:



I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips.



One very useful thing I leant from fred's hard work: MP9 has no sway. Combined with MP9's surprisingly long effective 4HK range at 1343 (or around 32 meters, which is > all SMGs, M4A1, FAD, L86 LSW), RPM at 895, mag size at 32 (48 with extended mags), and headshot multiplier of 2.0x, it intrigues me as a very effective secondary weapon that could feel like an AR or LMG. The only thing to be concerned about is the high recoil. Maybe aim for the head from long range, use it like a MK14 for the 2 HK? I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips.One very useful thing I leant from fred's hard work: MP9 has no sway. Combined with MP9's surprisingly long effective 4HK range at 1343 (or around 32 meters, which is > all SMGs, M4A1, FAD, L86 LSW), RPM at 895, mag size at 32 (48 with extended mags), and headshot multiplier of 2.0x, it intrigues me as a very effective secondary weapon that could feel like an AR or LMG. The only thing to be concerned about is the high recoil. Maybe aim for the head from long range, use it like a MK14 for the 2 HK?



yes. How does one take this info, and find use from it?



MP9 has little sway. Ok? Now what? What do I do with this info? Not trying to be annoying, but I'm just trying to find a way to get use from this data. You know? Even WittySkorpion above, while stating the MP9 has little sway, really didn't answer what to do with that.



yes. How does one take this info, and find use from it?MP9 has little sway. Ok? Now what? What do I do with this info? Not trying to be annoying, but I'm just trying to find a way to get use from this data. You know? Even WittySkorpion above, while stating the MP9 has little sway, really didn't answer what to do with that.



iw5000: before I started experimenting with MK14 vs. RSASS w/ACOG, I also feel that the detailed sway data is interesting but not as useful as other weapon stats like you.



Today I did some comparision between MK14 and RSASS to settle a debate in thread and I found the niche where stability is important: long range accuracy. The lower the sway, the better the long range accuracy (assuming recoil can be managed to the similar level using skills, proficiencies and attachments). This is the range where you get the congratulation announcement of "long shot" when using the weapon.



However, non-SR have the ability to cancel the sway by quickly getting out/in ADS (it is important for people to know about this though, because otherwise they may be wondering (like me before seeing this post :-)) why M46 w/thermal sometimes works amazingly well like a lazer, sometimes it sucks. Don't stare down the ADS for too long, you stupid!), and SR have the ability to remove the sway by holding breath. So the most practical area of this data I can see is SR w/ACOGs.



The knowledge that MP-9 has no sway what so ever is surprising and useful. It means that you can stare down ADS as long as you want in tactical loitering mode and still have the accuracy you need. iw5000: before I started experimenting with MK14 vs. RSASS w/ACOG, I also feel that the detailed sway data is interesting but not as useful as other weapon stats like you.Today I did some comparision between MK14 and RSASS to settle a debate in thread and I found the niche where stability is important: long range accuracy. The lower the sway, the better the long range accuracy (assuming recoil can be managed to the similar level using skills, proficiencies and attachments). This is the range where you get the congratulation announcement of "long shot" when using the weapon.However, non-SR have the ability to cancel the sway by quickly getting out/in ADS (it is important for people to know about this though, because otherwise they may be wondering (like me before seeing this post :-)) why M46 w/thermal sometimes works amazingly well like a lazer, sometimes it sucks. Don't stare down the ADS for too long, you stupid!), and SR have the ability to remove the sway by holding breath. So the most practical area of this data I can see is SR w/ACOGs.The knowledge that MP-9 has no sway what so ever is surprising and useful. It means that you can stare down ADS as long as you want in tactical loitering mode and still have the accuracy you need.

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Member Back to Top Post by Megaqwerty on iw5000 said: How does one take this info, and find use from it?



Nothing is lost by forgoing the L118 for the MSR. In every CoD before this, the strong bolt action (ex. R700, Intervention, L96) has had more sway than the other snipers. This is not true here.



Also, the AS50's lower sway is not just an illusion due to its lower zoom: it does actually possess less sway than the other snipers. Nothing is lost by forgoing the L118 for the MSR. In every CoD before this, the strong bolt action (ex. R700, Intervention, L96) has had more sway than the other snipers. This is not true here.Also, the AS50's lower sway is not just an illusion due to its lower zoom: it does actually possess less sway than the other snipers.

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Member Back to Top Post by wittyscorpion on fred said:

PRACTICAL SUGGESTION

For weapons where the sway builds up gradually (all AR, SMG, LMG) you can quickly "reset" the sway to 0 by toggling the ADS button out then in very quickly. This technique is highly recommended along with burst fire. However, you cannot do this for weapons with immediate sway like snipers and certain machine pistols.

For weapons where the sway builds up gradually (all AR, SMG, LMG) you can quickly "reset" the sway to 0 by toggling the ADS button out then in very quickly. This technique is highly recommended along with burst fire. However, you cannot do this for weapons with immediate sway like snipers and certain machine pistols.



Fred: regarding the gradual build up of sway for non-SRs (excluding the MP with immediate full sway), is it a constant number of seconds across all weapons? How long is it? Fred: regarding the gradual build up of sway for non-SRs (excluding the MP with immediate full sway), is it a constant number of seconds across all weapons? How long is it?

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Member Back to Top Post by fred on wittyscorpion said: fred said:

PRACTICAL SUGGESTION

For weapons where the sway builds up gradually (all AR, SMG, LMG) you can quickly "reset" the sway to 0 by toggling the ADS button out then in very quickly. This technique is highly recommended along with burst fire. However, you cannot do this for weapons with immediate sway like snipers and certain machine pistols.

For weapons where the sway builds up gradually (all AR, SMG, LMG) you can quickly "reset" the sway to 0 by toggling the ADS button out then in very quickly. This technique is highly recommended along with burst fire. However, you cannot do this for weapons with immediate sway like snipers and certain machine pistols.



Fred: regarding the gradual build up of sway for non-SRs (excluding the MP with immediate full sway), is it a constant number of seconds across all weapons? How long is it? Fred: regarding the gradual build up of sway for non-SRs (excluding the MP with immediate full sway), is it a constant number of seconds across all weapons? How long is it?



This was hard to tell and I didn't create any quantitative measurements to compare between weapons. About 2 to 3 seconds to full speed would be my answer with sway from the faster and larger swaying weapons noticeable first. This was hard to tell and I didn't create any quantitative measurements to compare between weapons. About 2 to 3 seconds to full speed would be my answer with sway from the faster and larger swaying weapons noticeable first.

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Member Back to Top Post by fred on iw5000 said:



....at the end of the day, is there even one useful thing up there? Not trying to be rude, but some guns have some more 'sway' over others. Ok? It seems like that was already well known and understand.



So for example.... How does it help me to know the T95 has less sway than the M4? There are a lot of nice measurements up there, but I have to ask.........at the end of the day, is there even one useful thing up there? Not trying to be rude, but some guns have some more 'sway' over others. Ok? It seems like that was already well known and understand.So for example.... How does it help me to know the T95 has less sway than the M4?



iw5000



Let me get this straight. You are the same guy who let us all know 1 meter is about 42-3 units in a 3 page long post that uses the game guide weapon ranges as bible? I'm speechless.



Maybe you should try searching the forum first.



Lots of great info and charts have been posted over the years from bro’s like den, toysrme, ishbane, psijaka and many others. If you searched you’d find sway has been a significant weapon balancing element since COD4. If you are engaging targets at short range sway has never meant shit. But if you are ADS on a tiny target (head glitch) or using a high mag optic (or not) and engaging a long distance target it is important. It’s that simple. There isn’t another answer. Think about it. How good would the COD4 M4 or AK have been without sway? How about the COD5 MGs? How about the COD7 G11 LPS? How about Foxtroting sniper rifles?



If you searched you’d also find Den’s figure of 1 meter = 40u has been posted for at least 4 years and you’d find my testing with the XM25 (in meters) against known unit distances (in units) from game config files (the long shot distances specifically) strongly confirms this figure for MW3 as well.



If your overall point is that weapon stats don’t matter much to combat success compared to teamwork, training, tactics, post-mortems, connection quality, emotional discipline, proper rest and physical preparation, and game mode/map knowledge then … no Foxtroting shit. I hope everyone here understands these factors are primary and there are no silver bullets in class or weapon selection. If you suck, you'll still suck no matter what class you use.



But this forum’s core mission has been these technical stats and game algorithms ...and I don't give a shit if you think these stats have practical uselessness. Let me get this straight. You are the same guy who let us all know 1 meter is about 42-3 units in a 3 page long post that uses the game guide weapon ranges as bible? I'm speechless.Maybe you should try searching the forum first.Lots of great info and charts have been posted over the years from bro’s like den, toysrme, ishbane, psijaka and many others. If you searched you’d find sway has been a significant weapon balancing element since COD4. If you are engaging targets at short range sway has never meant shit. But if you are ADS on a tiny target (head glitch) or using a high mag optic (or not) and engaging a long distance target it is important. It’s that simple. There isn’t another answer. Think about it. How good would the COD4 M4 or AK have been without sway? How about the COD5 MGs? How about the COD7 G11 LPS? How about Foxtroting sniper rifles?If you searched you’d also find Den’s figure of 1 meter = 40u has been posted for at least 4 years and you’d find my testing with the XM25 (in meters) against known unit distances (in units) from game config files (the long shot distances specifically) strongly confirms this figure for MW3 as well.If your overall point is that weapon stats don’t matter much to combat success compared to teamwork, training, tactics, post-mortems, connection quality, emotional discipline, proper rest and physical preparation, and game mode/map knowledge then … no Foxtroting shit. I hope everyone here understands these factors are primary and there are no silver bullets in class or weapon selection. If you suck, you'll still suck no matter what class you use.But this forum’s core mission has been these technical stats and game algorithms ...and I don't give a shit if you think these stats have practical uselessness.

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Member Back to Top Post by iw5000 on fred said: iw5000 said:



....at the end of the day, is there even one useful thing up there? Not trying to be rude, but some guns have some more 'sway' over others. Ok? It seems like that was already well known and understand.



So for example.... How does it help me to know the T95 has less sway than the M4? There are a lot of nice measurements up there, but I have to ask.........at the end of the day, is there even one useful thing up there? Not trying to be rude, but some guns have some more 'sway' over others. Ok? It seems like that was already well known and understand.So for example.... How does it help me to know the T95 has less sway than the M4?



iw5000



Let me get this straight. You are the same guy who let us all know 1 meter is about 42-3 units in a 3 page long post that uses the game guide weapon ranges as bible? I'm speechless. Let me get this straight. You are the same guy who let us all know 1 meter is about 42-3 units in a 3 page long post that uses the game guide weapon ranges as bible? I'm speechless.



1. Like it's been said a couple of times now...i was simply asking (to repeat what another person ALSO said...



"I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips."....



Is that so wrong to ask? To ask what the practical, useful use of knowing that the M4A1 has a numeric value of 6.7 and 40, .. is that bad ...but how much? How does one correct or fix it? Is a 40 that much worse than a 25? Are we splitting hairs?



2. Second point, what you said up there. Apparently you didn't read my prior posts. If you had, you would have seen me say that the units to meter correlation is not accurate. The charts are NOT the bible. It is at best a rough approximation. Furthermore, you would have read, like in my recent post, me coming to a lot of conclusions where I simply say the charts aren't the bible...i've said before, for example, that here's a bunch of stats, tests......and at the end of the day, it's just splitting hairs and not worth the fuss. Under these conditions, both guns work fine. Not every calculation ends up being relevant.



Maybe you should try searching the forum first.

Maybe I don't have time to spend hours searching older posts and simply wanted someone to give me a quick thought or two, without being a rude? Or maybe you shouldn't be as thin skinned as you are? Again, as others have said...i simply tried to ask people what the relevancy was here (go look) You tried to answer it in your above post....., but only after being an what what. Seriously Fred, if you don't want people asking questions of your posts, asking where you got stuff, why it's relevant.....maybe you shouldn't post it?



If your overall point is that weapon stats don’t matter much to combat success compared to teamwork, training, ............

My overall point was just as ANOTHER person said....



""I think what iw5000 is asking is how to turn this data into practical tips."....



A number in and by itself is useless. It's how you place that number, in context, where it starts to define it's usefulness.









1. Like it's been said a couple of times now...i was simply asking (to repeat what another person ALSO said..."....Is that so wrong to ask? To ask what the practical, useful use of knowing that the M4A1 has a numeric value of 6.7 and 40, .. is that bad ...but how much? How does one correct or fix it? Is a 40 that much worse than a 25? Are we splitting hairs?2. Second point, what you said up there. Apparently you didn't read my prior posts. If you had, you would have seen me say that the units to meter correlation is not accurate. The charts are NOT the bible. It is at best a rough approximation. Furthermore, you would have read, like in my recent post, me coming to a lot of conclusions where I simply say the charts aren't the bible...i've said before, for example, that here's a bunch of stats, tests......and at the end of the day, it's just splitting hairs and not worth the fuss. Under these conditions, both guns work fine. Not every calculation ends up being relevant.Maybe I don't have time to spend hours searching older posts and simply wanted someone to give me a quick thought or two, without being a rude? Or maybe you shouldn't be as thin skinned as you are? Again, as others have said...i simply tried to ask people what the relevancy was here (go look) You tried to answer it in your above post....., but only after being an what what. Seriously Fred, if you don't want people asking questions of your posts, asking where you got stuff, why it's relevant.....maybe you shouldn't post it?My overall point was just as ANOTHER person said...."....A number in and by itself is useless. It's how you place that number, in context, where it starts to define it's usefulness.

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Member Back to Top Post by wantonRULE on iw5000 said: fred said:



Is that so wrong to ask? To ask what the practical, useful use of knowing that the M4A1 has a numeric value of 6.7 and 40, .. is that bad ...but how much? How does one correct or fix it? Is a 40 that much worse than a 25? Are we splitting hairs?



Is that so wrong to ask? To ask what the practical, useful use of knowing that the M4A1 has a numeric value of 6.7 and 40, .. is that bad ...but how much? How does one correct or fix it? Is a 40 that much worse than a 25? Are we splitting hairs?



jw for this particular set regarding the m4a1 for example, i posted:



"so it makes sense to use stability with the m4 due it's low recoil anyway. also, with 5 shots to kill at range, you definitely need stability to make it work properly [since it's sway is so horrid]."



i agree your questions were valid ones. i too sometimes read some great info here from fred and others and wonder how to take advantage and eventually someone posts an example of how to setup/use this with a particular weapon/attachement and shade some light.



i'm hoping the m4 example helps a bit, if not, someone please correct me or add your input because as far as i'm concerned that's how i'm interperting this. jw for this particular set regarding the m4a1 for example, i posted:"so it makes sense to use stability with the m4 due it's low recoil anyway. also, with 5 shots to kill at range, you definitely need stability to make it work properly [since it's sway is so horrid]."i agree your questions were valid ones. i too sometimes read some great info here from fred and others and wonder how to take advantage and eventually someone posts an example of how to setup/use this with a particular weapon/attachement and shade some light.i'm hoping the m4 example helps a bit, if not, someone please correct me or add your input because as far as i'm concerned that's how i'm interperting this.

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Member Back to Top Post by I Am Hollywood5 on lol, i had to laugh when I saw you forgot the PM-9... XD I don't blame you, nobody is ever going to use that pile of doo-doo anyways =)



and I was always wondering why the MP5 sucked so bad... I feel unstoppable with the UMP45 Rapid Fire, but even though the MP5 kills in the same number of bullets and shoots faster than the UMP45, the MP5 always was horrible for me. It has to be that crazy sway.



But why do the M4 and FAD have such bad sway? The M4 shoots slightly faster than the SCAR-L and ACR, so apparently to compensate for that, IW felt the need to give it more recoil, way more sway, way shorter range, and less damage than the ACR? IW wouldn't know balance if it bit them in the arse.... same with FAD, it has a high fire rate and bigger magazine but doo-doo damage and range, so they make it even worse by giving it awful sway? I tell ya, there is literally no reason to use anything other than the ACR in this game....

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Member Back to Top Post by shatt3r on Would there be a situation, I'm looking mostly at the mp7 here, where using stability could therefore grant overall more accuracy than kick? I mean the MP7 itself has almost no side recoil even without kick, and the vertical is easily managable, that could mean most of the inaccuracy would come from the weapon sway while u are firing as opposed to the recoil. If so taking stability could actually improve accuracy more than kick? This would of course only apply when ADSing. Just a thought. though don't see this being the case for any other weapon honestly as the side ways recoil is just too high on most of them to make stability better.