14:59 <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting 14:59 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 22 14:59:22 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 14:59 <meetingology> 14:59 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 14:59 <knome> #topic Items carried on 14:59 <knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 14:59 <knome> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so 14:59 * meetingology skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so 15:00 <knome> #topic Team updates 15:00 <knome> Please use #info and #action 15:00 <knome> people, go ahead 15:00 <GridCube> :) 15:00 <knome> #info unfortunately, due to various obstacles, the docs SRU is not going to make it to .3, but we will upload it to -updates ASAP (and eventually, it'll be in .4) 15:01 <GridCube> #info Desktop of the week will have a list ready for later today of the first few images proposed for the project, we hope to have them posted an anounced for the first days of the next week 15:02 <knome> #action knome will prepare the website side later this week 15:02 * meetingology knome will prepare the website side later this week 15:02 <knome> #undo 15:02 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x322da50> 15:02 <knome> #action knome will prepare the website side for desktop of the week -gallery later this week 15:02 * meetingology knome will prepare the website side for desktop of the week -gallery later this week 15:02 <knome> anything else? 15:02 <GridCube> not from me in this topics 15:03 <knome> looking at a busier week next week, because we're one week to FF :) 15:03 <GridCube> indeed 15:03 <knome> #topic Announcements 15:03 <knome> none from me at this time. other team members? 15:03 <knome> oh, i do 15:04 <knome> #info knome has received money from the magazine. the project now about 250 euros to spend. 15:04 <knome> #undo 15:04 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x30dc710> 15:04 <knome> #info knome has received money from the linuxidentity magazine articles. the project has now about 250 euros to spend. 15:04 <knome> better :P 15:05 <smartboyhw> \o/ 15:05 <knome> #topic New and emerging items 15:05 <knome> #subtopic Mir decisions 15:05 <GridCube> is this time for opinions? 15:05 <knome> soon 15:06 <knome> is there something people want to discuss? 15:06 <olli> knome, tvoss and I can give an update 15:06 <knome> what's the status updates for Mir, is there any new ground-breaking tests? 15:06 <pleia2> o/ 15:06 <knome> olli, sure, that would be good :) 15:07 <olli> we were heading for a Call for testing for today around Multimonitor and composite bypass 15:07 <olli> sad reality is that we don't have the PPA ready for testing today 15:07 <olli> while we hope it's ready by tomorrow, we might even see further delays 15:07 <olli> I understand that this negatively impacts your decision making process 15:08 <olli> the ultimate plan is to land these features sufficiently tested by FF, i.e. 8/29 15:09 <olli> so we don't have a lot of time to pull the PPA together _and_ have enough headway until FF 15:09 <olli> there has been some FUD around the VT security bug 15:10 <olli> that is currently being worked on at https://code.launchpad.net/~robertcarr/mir/client-focus-notifications 15:10 <olli> and a mandatory target for 13.10 15:10 <olli> internal testing has shown improvements for the bypass feature 15:11 <olli> we are about to publish numbers via the long promised & outstanding dashboard 15:11 <olli> tvoss_, anything I missed (sorry, am in a real life meeting while I type;) 15:12 <tvoss_> olli, nope, all good :) for racarr's branch: it has taken quite a while to review it as it impacts such an important area and is security relevant 15:13 <knome> Riddell, o/ 15:13 <knome> anybody has questions to olli, tvoss_? 15:15 <pleia2> thanks for the updates 15:15 <knome> yup 15:16 <smartboyhw> tvoss_, when is the ETA of the fix branch? 15:16 <smartboyhw> I mean, landing 15:16 <knome> i think we should vote about waiting or not waiting first 15:17 <knome> everybody agree or do we have better ideas? 15:17 <pleia2> maybe talk about it before vote? :) 15:17 <knome> people are so quiet... 15:17 <pleia2> hehe 15:17 <GridCube> we need opinions before voting 15:17 <lderan> sorry reading work emails :P 15:18 <tvoss_> smartboyhw, so eta for landing was yesterday :) but one reviewer found small issues 15:18 <GridCube> to take a reasonable desition 15:18 <rowboatnick> im spectating only 15:18 <smartboyhw> tvoss_, ah 15:18 <pleia2> so here's the thing, we're still seeing a fair number of failures, where the failover doesn't work and folks end up with blank screens, slow mouse pointers and screen corruption on some cards 15:18 <tvoss_> smartboyhw, small issues as in: syntactic mostly. racarr is online in ~1 hour and should tackle those, so there are no major blockers 15:18 <pleia2> even if the multi-monitor stuff landed today, I'm not happy 15:18 <knome> ...which is why i personally see a little point in postponing the decision 15:19 <GridCube> mmhm, i had better results on 0.0.8 than 0.0.9 15:19 <smartboyhw> 0.0.9 is most certainly better than 0.0.8. I agree with GridCube 15:19 <pleia2> postponing until today was already quite late for us given limitations of our team (we have a pretty small testing team in general, smaller development for fixing bugs) 15:19 <knome> smartboyhw, that's not what he said.. 15:19 <pleia2> smartboyhw: he said the opposite 15:19 <GridCube> i had more lag on .9 than in .8 15:19 <smartboyhw> knome, pleia2 oh:( 15:20 * smartboyhw says the direct oppostie of GridCube then 15:20 <smartboyhw> :P 15:20 <GridCube> in any case there are too many result in the fail area 15:20 <olli> I don't know XUbuntu well, but is there an anticipated large difference between XUbuntu's DE and Ubuntu's DE 15:20 <cub> But would still be possible to add xmir as of today with apt-get install unity-system-compositor? 15:20 <knome> from my point of view, while there certainly has been improvements, xmir hasn't been proving to generally improve for everybody 15:20 <knome> olli, yes 15:20 <smartboyhw> cub, yes 15:20 <olli> i.e. shouldn't Ubuntu & XUbuntu see feature/bug parity 15:21 <knome> olli, partly, but there is a lot that is different 15:21 <cub> So the question is more "Should mir be the default already on installation?"? 15:21 <lderan> I haven't had a good experience of xmir yet 15:21 <tvoss_> knome, I think olli is referring to the underlying graphics stack 15:21 <knome> cub, ...no :) 15:21 <pleia2> cub: right, that's the question 15:21 <pleia2> knome: oh? 15:21 <smartboyhw> oh? 15:21 <GridCube> cub: the question would be if it will be shipped default 15:22 <knome> that ^ 15:22 <pleia2> it will be in the repos regardless, is I think what cub is saying 15:22 <knome> then it should be "for" installation :) 15:22 <knome> tvoss_, olli: yes, sure 15:22 <cub> exactly. But the people who would like to test it could just add it themselves. Everybody happy. 15:22 <GridCube> we could change the ubiquity installer to ask if xmir or x.org? 15:23 <knome> but the reason why we are here that the Canonical decision to indlude mir or not is a different from the Xubuntu decision to include (X)Mir 15:23 <OvenWerks> Only if it includes an expailation 15:23 <knome> not only because the other uses Mir and the other XMir 15:23 <olli> regarding QA resources & test coverage... would it help if we (upstream) would contribute to your testing 15:23 <knome> GridCube, not happy with that either. 15:24 <smartboyhw> knome, I rather think an explanation on the website or the release notes might help. 15:24 <xnox> GridCube: that would mean shipping xmir & x.org packages on the cd, and removing the one not needed at the end of installation (similar is done with unneeded file-system utilities et al) 15:24 <knome> GridCube, if XMir is ready and stable enough to be chosen from the installer, then it should probably be default. if not, then it shouldn't be installable at all 15:24 <pleia2> olli: so we've put a lot of effort into testing xmir specifically, we really need to get back on track for more general Xubuntu testing 15:24 <GridCube> ofcourse it would help, but our users regard xubuntu as a pretty stable release, they use us on many places where they want to have a simple-stable system, not providing that would scare many of our users 15:25 <GridCube> knome: good point 15:25 <knome> (installable from the CD) 15:25 <pleia2> we could make sure a wiki page is maintained for folks who do want to enable it (I don't love installer option either) 15:25 <GridCube> At this moment, just at this moment, xmir its not stable enough for xubuntu, that is my opinion 15:25 <smartboyhw> pleia2, you can put it in release notes 15:25 <GridCube> its pretty good though 15:25 <smartboyhw> Or website 15:27 <knome> so... 15:27 <pleia2> vote time 15:27 <knome> do people think we should bother to vote about waiting or not waiting 15:27 * smartboyhw doesn't 15:27 * olli does 15:27 <GridCube> vote 15:27 <knome> i think we should do that. 15:27 <smartboyhw> It's one week BEFORE ff now 15:27 <olli> sorry, that was selfish ;) 15:27 * tvoss_ does, too :) 15:27 <pleia2> olli: hehe :) 15:28 <knome> olli, np, that's expected ;) 15:28 <knome> #vote Should we wait for improvements landing to XMir later (but before the FF)? (+1 for wait, -1 for not wait) 15:28 <meetingology> Please vote on: Should we wait for improvements landing to XMir later (but before the FF)? (+1 for wait, -1 for not wait) 15:28 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 15:28 <knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat Unit193 15:28 <meetingology> Current voters: GridCube Unit193 bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat 15:28 <knome> -0 15:28 <knome> bah, no -0? 15:28 <knome> +0 15:28 <meetingology> +0 received from knome 15:28 <pleia2> -1 15:28 <meetingology> -1 received from pleia2 15:28 <GridCube> -1 15:28 <meetingology> -1 received from GridCube 15:28 <jjfrv8> -1 15:28 <meetingology> -1 received from jjfrv8 15:29 <smartboyhw> Well... 15:29 <knome> there was one -1 from elfy and one -1 from Unit193. 15:29 <knome> (covering this questions as well) 15:29 <smartboyhw> -6... 15:29 <knome> people who want to check that the votes are valid can check the logs from this channel earlier today. 15:30 <knome> let's wait for a few more minutes. 15:31 <ochosi> -1 15:31 <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi 15:31 * smartboyhw thinks -7 is a majority already... 15:31 <knome> smartboyhw, please. 15:31 <knome> #endvote 15:31 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Should we wait for improvements landing to XMir later (but before the FF)? (+1 for wait, -1 for not wait) 15:31 <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:4 Abstentions:1 15:31 <meetingology> Motion denied 15:31 <knome> #vote Include (+1) or not include (-1) Mir in Xubuntu 13.10? 15:31 <meetingology> Please vote on: Include (+1) or not include (-1) Mir in Xubuntu 13.10? 15:31 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 15:32 <knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat Unit193 15:32 <meetingology> Current voters: GridCube Unit193 bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat 15:32 <pleia2> -1 15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from pleia2 15:32 <knome> -1 15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from knome 15:32 <GridCube> -1 15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from GridCube 15:32 <ochosi> -1 15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi 15:32 <jjfrv8> -1 15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from jjfrv8 15:33 <knome> there was one -1 from elfy and one -1 from Unit193 to this as well. 15:33 <knome> again, you can check the logs 15:33 <knome> #endvote 15:33 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Include (+1) or not include (-1) Mir in Xubuntu 13.10? 15:33 <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:5 Abstentions:0 15:33 <meetingology> Motion denied 15:33 <knome> tvoss_, olli: thanks 15:34 <knome> efforts are appreciated :) 15:34 <GridCube> its not ready just yet 15:34 <olli> so, while this is not the resolution we were hoping for (but we understand & appreciate your efforts) I really wanted to say thanks to the team for giving it a fair chance 15:34 <pleia2> indeed! it's been fun working with the Mir team, and helping folks get the hands in testing at Ubuntu Hours and such 15:34 <olli> rather than making uneducated decisions, this is worth a lot to us 15:34 <ochosi> i guess ppl will continue testing 15:34 <lderan> hope mir goes well for ubuntu :) 15:34 <knome> tvoss_, olli: i'm sure people can test mir with xubuntu in the following days as well, to see if things have been improving and bugs fixed :) 15:34 <GridCube> olli: :) and thank you for your presence it was greatly appreciated 15:35 <tvoss_> yeah, and thanks or all your testing efforts :) 15:35 <olli> I hope that by 14.04 the vote will be in the different direction ;) 15:35 <knome> tvoss_, olli: if you don't mind, we won't mind you being on the channel available for possible questions and discussion in the future 15:35 <ochosi> +1 15:35 <olli> knome, I will try to idle around 15:35 <tvoss_> knome, I will be around 15:35 <olli> but you guys know, that #ubuntu-mir is just around the /j corner ;) 15:36 <knome> tvoss_, olli: and finally, thanks again for working with us and really taking us into account! 15:36 <knome> anybody else with closing thoughts? :) 15:37 <GridCube> I think that what we all think its that is great to have the developers here, trying to help us to make the best desition 15:37 <knome> definitely 15:37 <GridCube> and that we hope that if things keep this way in the future we can rethink our position for future releases 15:38 <knome> #subtopic Proposal for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs 15:38 <knome> skellat is not around, so passing 15:39 <knome> #subtopic Inclusion of Xfce 4.11 components in Xubuntu 13.10? 15:40 <knome> since developers aren't around, we can't make final decisions... however, 15:40 <knome> ochosi, would you like to list components that we should consider, since you have been overlooking the xfce development lately? 15:41 <ochosi> well the most important part of xfce4.11 in my personal opinion is the improved multi-monitor support 15:41 <ochosi> that is part of xfce4-settings 15:41 <ochosi> bluesabre, mr_pouit and me were working on that 15:41 <ochosi> xfdesktop also bears quite some improvements 15:42 <knome> i assume that would bring the much discussed display-dialog in as well 15:42 <ochosi> yes, xfce4-settings == display dialog (amongst others) 15:42 <ochosi> and i think some of the keyboard-shortcut issues (primary vs. ctrl) were solved recently 15:42 <ochosi> for the display dialog we should at least (if we don't include it by default) point ppl to the 4.12 dev ppa 15:42 <knome> what's in with xfdesktop more specifically? 15:43 <ochosi> a revamped settings-dialog, nicer workspaces support 15:43 <knome> #info xfce4-settings to bring in improved multi-monitor support along with a nice display dialog 15:43 <ochosi> the settings-dialog doesn't just show a fixed list, but the content of a folder 15:44 <ochosi> i've also been involved in that a bit 15:44 <knome> #info xfdekstop to bring improvements in settings dialog and better workspace support 15:44 <ochosi> you can also set different wallpapers per workspace 15:44 <ochosi> which is a feature many wanted for a long time 15:45 <knome> what about the panel indicators patch? 15:45 <knome> i know that's not exactly 4.11, but is something that relates to that 15:45 <ochosi> i've been sitting behind a really slow mobile internet connection, so i wasn't able to put the pieces together unfortunately 15:46 <knome> okay, but would you think that would be something we wanted to consider? 15:46 <knome> "that" being a patch that allowed running gtk3 indicators in a gtk2 panel 15:46 <ochosi> well there are two options: 15:46 <knome> which would mean we wouldn't need to maintain the gtk2 indicators, and we'd get back some lost features 15:47 <ochosi> 1) use patched gtk2 panel with gtk3 indicators 15:47 <ochosi> 2) use gtk3 panel with gtk2 xfce plugins and gtk3 indicators 15:47 <ochosi> tbh i've only tested the latter 15:47 <ochosi> that was stable though, i even have theming for it in a separate branch of greybird 15:48 <ochosi> i've been trying to get a hold of andrzejr, the author of the patches and maintainer of the indicator-plugin for a few days now 15:48 <knome> do you think you would have some time and a decent enough connection to work on that before the FF? 15:48 <knome> #info Several options to enable GTK3 indicators for the panel 15:49 <ochosi> i'll have a bad connection until the end of august, then i'll be moving to italy, so possibly no regular connection at all for the first weeks 15:49 <ochosi> at least not in a way that i can promise 15:49 <knome> okay 15:49 <knome> let's postpone that for 14.04 then 15:49 <ochosi> yeah, if no-one else can test it 15:50 <ochosi> i mean it's not extremely hard to do, i can possibly write up some instructions 15:50 <knome> i can test, and we can organize broader testing, but things would need to work first :) 15:50 <knome> sure, so let's see if we can do that 15:50 <ochosi> ok 15:50 <knome> #action knome to be in touch with developers in cherry-picking xfce4-settings and xfdesktop from 4.11 to 13.10 15:50 * meetingology knome to be in touch with developers in cherry-picking xfce4-settings and xfdesktop from 4.11 to 13.10 15:51 <knome> #action ochosi to write instructions on testing panel with gtk3 indicators enabled 15:51 * meetingology ochosi to write instructions on testing panel with gtk3 indicators enabled 15:51 <knome> #subtopic Virtual Ubuntu Developer Summit August 2013 Participation? 15:52 <knome> there was some discussion about this, and we'll probably schedule two off-vUDS-schedule sessions 15:52 <knome> #action knome to send information about vUDS participation/sessions to ML later this week 15:52 * meetingology knome to send information about vUDS participation/sessions to ML later this week 15:52 <knome> #subtopic Status Report on Strategy Document revisions 15:52 <knome> #info TODO 15:53 <knome> #action knome will send drafts of changes to the ML later this month 15:53 * meetingology knome will send drafts of changes to the ML later this month 15:53 <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting 15:53 <knome> do we want a meeting next week (FF day)? 15:53 <skellat> Meh 15:54 <pleia2> what a cheerful response 15:54 <skellat> pleia2: Not feeling the most well 15:54 <knome> it's also one week before B1 15:54 <knome> and the B1 freeze day. 15:54 <pleia2> +1 to meeting next week 15:54 <knome> okay 15:54 <skellat> Put it on the 28th? 15:54 <pleia2> (even if I hate waking up at 8AM :)) 15:54 <knome> pleia2, you can do wed? 15:54 <lderan> poor pleia2 :P 15:55 <skellat> That'll have us the day before Feature Freeze 15:55 <knome> skellat, which is useless if things are still "TODO" :) 15:55 <pleia2> yeah whatever :) 15:55 <knome> but i do think it's better than FF day. 15:55 <knome> #info Next meeting: 28 Aug at 15UTC 15:55 <knome> #endmeeting