ilikeredheads Profile Joined August 2011 Canada 1831 Posts #21 lack of swarm hosts changes is very surprising.

omop Profile Joined April 2017 35 Posts #22 Well much much better than Avilo´s but... I think too many things have been fixed, which aren´t broken.







MockHamill Profile Joined March 2010 Sweden 1698 Posts Last Edited: 2017-05-25 07:09:18 #23 The only thing that really needs to be patched is the Swarm Host. The rest is minor issues in comparison.



They hard counter an entire play style which make the game less diverse.



Swarm Hosts needs one of these in order to balanced:

a) Price increase

b) Dps decrease

c) Hitpoints decrease



As they are they are simply OP vs mech.



After Swarm Hosts have been adjusted we can look at other issues.

claybones Profile Blog Joined September 2011 United States 243 Posts #24

Ultralisk

Creep Speed Multiplier reduced to .871 from 1.2



Am I reading this wrong or does this mean ultras will be slower on creep than off of it? Am I reading this wrong or does this mean ultras will be slower on creep than off of it?

Excalibur_Z Profile Joined October 2002 United States 11881 Posts #25 On May 25 2017 16:10 claybones wrote:

Show nested quote +



Ultralisk

Creep Speed Multiplier reduced to .871 from 1.2



Am I reading this wrong or does this mean ultras will be slower on creep than off of it? Am I reading this wrong or does this mean ultras will be slower on creep than off of it?



I read it that way too, but I remember reading somewhere (and this probably changed at some point) that Creep provides a static 30% speed increase to all Zerg ground combat units, but then there's also a per-unit multiplier based on that 30% constant to fine-tune how each unit is affected. I read it that way too, but I remember reading somewhere (and this probably changed at some point) that Creep provides a static 30% speed increase to all Zerg ground combat units, but then there's also a per-unit multiplier based on that 30% constant to fine-tune how each unit is affected. Moderator

MLuneth Profile Joined January 2012 Australia 556 Posts #26 On May 25 2017 16:01 MockHamill wrote:

The only thing that really needs to be patched is the Swarm Host. The rest is minor issues in comparison.



They hard counter an entire play style which make the game less diverse.



Swarm Hosts needs one of these in order to balanced:

a) Price increase

b) Dps decrease

c) Hitpoints decrease



As they are they are simply OP vs mech.



After Swarm Hosts have been adjusted we can look at other issues.



Why is the type of mech that is weak vs swarm host something that should be prioritised? Typically the compositions you want in the game interact with the opponent rather than turtling until maxed. Why is the type of mech that is weak vs swarm host something that should be prioritised? Typically the compositions you want in the game interact with the opponent rather than turtling until maxed. Innovation is a PatchTerran

MockHamill Profile Joined March 2010 Sweden 1698 Posts Last Edited: 2017-05-25 07:51:13 #27 On May 25 2017 16:31 MLuneth wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 25 2017 16:01 MockHamill wrote:

The only thing that really needs to be patched is the Swarm Host. The rest is minor issues in comparison.



They hard counter an entire play style which make the game less diverse.



Swarm Hosts needs one of these in order to balanced:

a) Price increase

b) Dps decrease

c) Hitpoints decrease



As they are they are simply OP vs mech.



After Swarm Hosts have been adjusted we can look at other issues.



Why is the type of mech that is weak vs swarm host something that should be prioritised? Typically the compositions you want in the game interact with the opponent rather than turtling until maxed. Why is the type of mech that is weak vs swarm host something that should be prioritised? Typically the compositions you want in the game interact with the opponent rather than turtling until maxed.



Yes I agree. I think Ravens/BCs/Carriers etc should be nerfed since they promote turtling .



But Swarm Hosts needs to be addressed first since they makes it impossible to tell if mech is balanced, OP or UP without them. Only after Swarm Hosts are balanced can we know for sure.



Then Ravens can nerfed into the ground (if necessary).





Yes I agree. I think Ravens/BCs/Carriers etc should be nerfed since they promote turtling .But Swarm Hosts needs to be addressed first since they makes it impossible to tell if mech is balanced, OP or UP without them. Only after Swarm Hosts are balanced can we know for sure.Then Ravens can nerfed into the ground (if necessary).

Pobble Profile Joined April 2011 Scotland 9 Posts #28



For Context, from the reddit thread: LiquidTLO1:

Aaah I didn't mean to have this public yet. I wanted to write a text explaining my thoughts and goals and also realize for example that protoss still needs a Buff.(finding buffs that don't just lead to abuse for protoss is hardest) and there's a bunch of stuff that I'm considering to be different than this version that needs some testing. So please don't take these suggestions too seriously yet. :p Thanks avex for creating the mod anyway, I guess people can feel free to try this version, but it'll probably be a bit OP.

Creager Profile Joined February 2011 Germany 1570 Posts Last Edited: 2017-05-25 09:27:46 #29 On May 25 2017 16:31 MLuneth wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 25 2017 16:01 MockHamill wrote:

The only thing that really needs to be patched is the Swarm Host. The rest is minor issues in comparison.



They hard counter an entire play style which make the game less diverse.



Swarm Hosts needs one of these in order to balanced:

a) Price increase

b) Dps decrease

c) Hitpoints decrease



As they are they are simply OP vs mech.



After Swarm Hosts have been adjusted we can look at other issues.



Why is the type of mech that is weak vs swarm host something that should be prioritised? Typically the compositions you want in the game interact with the opponent rather than turtling until maxed. Why is the type of mech that is weak vs swarm host something that should be prioritised? Typically the compositions you want in the game interact with the opponent rather than turtling until maxed.



Don't know if Swarm Hosts really are that OP vs. mech since I rarely play mech anymore vs. Zerg, but to be fair the constant hate on turtling players isn't justified to a certain extend. It might be boring to watch for many, but I've played mech almost exclusively (except against Protoss) throughout the years up until LotV and have to say that people just heavily disliking the playstyle (or rather having to play against such a player) aren't really considering that turtling can be a VERY hard and challenging thing to do.



For me, fine-tuning my composition, constantly defending different locations with the perfect minimal amount of units while also doing counter-harass and not getting caught off guard by potential tech switches until I could move out certainly was fun and definitely not some kind of easy win if my opponent knew how to play against it - one late siege, being caught out of position or not being able to defend against early aggression thus never even getting to the point of counter-aggression and just playing catch-up (most of the times inevitably losing). In addition to that I had to develop a much deeper understanding of the later stages of the game up to split-map scenarios and ultra-gas-starved lategame.



Also technically saying that turtling players don't "interact" with their opponent is just wrong, you just happen to be the aggressor, I'm defending, so my army still interacts with yours, just because it's not the way you want it to happen doesn't mean it's not there.



Many players seem do dislike having drawn-out games like that and I speculate this is just coming from not having as much experience or lacking patience, but think of it the other way round: Not many people like cheesy players, yet it's a legitimate playstyle which wins you games. It may not suit you, but there are other people who enjoy it, also it requires a certain skillset and has it's own difficulties to master. So, should we remove cheese and early all-ins from the game (sadly, with LotV they kind of did remove a good portion of it).

I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea and a lot of people prefer fast-paced action-packed games, but that's just another way of playing which can get dull, as well and may not be appealing to certain players.



The more diversity, the better.



Don't know if Swarm Hosts really are that OP vs. mech since I rarely play mech anymore vs. Zerg, but to be fair the constant hate on turtling players isn't justified to a certain extend. It might be boring to watch for many, but I've played mech almost exclusively (except against Protoss) throughout the years up until LotV and have to say that people just heavily disliking the playstyle (or rather having to play against such a player) aren't really considering that turtling can be a VERY hard and challenging thing to do.For me, fine-tuning my composition, constantly defending different locations with the perfect minimal amount of units while also doing counter-harass and not getting caught off guard by potential tech switches until I could move out certainly was fun and definitely not some kind of easy win if my opponent knew how to play against it - one late siege, being caught out of position or not being able to defend against early aggression thus never even getting to the point of counter-aggression and just playing catch-up (most of the times inevitably losing). In addition to that I had to develop a much deeper understanding of the later stages of the game up to split-map scenarios and ultra-gas-starved lategame.Also technically saying that turtling players don't "interact" with their opponent is just wrong, you just happen to be the aggressor, I'm defending, so my army still interacts with yours, just because it's not the way you want it to happen doesn't mean it's not there.Many players seem do dislike having drawn-out games like that and I speculate this is just coming from not having as much experience or lacking patience, but think of it the other way round: Not many people like cheesy players, yet it's a legitimate playstyle which wins you games. It may not suit you, but there are other people who enjoy it, also it requires a certain skillset and has it's own difficulties to master. So, should we remove cheese and early all-ins from the game (sadly, with LotV they kind of did remove a good portion of it).I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea and a lot of people prefer fast-paced action-packed games, but that's just another way of playing which can get dull, as well and may not be appealing to certain players.The more diversity, the better. ... einmal mit Profis spielen!

Darkencik Profile Joined April 2012 Slovakia 73 Posts #30 i can't say whether these changes are good in terms of balance - because i'm not good enough



what i can is that i was excited while reading them because it reminded me of Dota patches and how excited and motivated to play the game i am after reading them



thanks for the effort TLO!

Yrr Profile Joined June 2012 Germany 774 Posts Last Edited: 2017-05-25 09:13:48 #31 https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/6d72y0/in_the_wake_of_another_mod_recently_tlo_has/di0l68z/



LiquidTLO wrote:

Aaah I didn't mean to have this public yet. I wanted to write a text explaining my thoughts and goals and also realize for example that protoss still needs a Buff.(finding buffs that don't just lead to abuse for protoss is hardest) and there's a bunch of stuff that I'm considering to be different than this version that needs some testing. So please don't take these suggestions too seriously yet. :p Thanks avex for creating the mod anyway, I guess people can feel free to try this version, but it'll probably be a bit OP. MMR decay is bad, m'kay? | Personal Hero: TerranHwaiting

dalaiisc2 Profile Joined May 2016 18 Posts #32 cant wait for avilos thoughts on these changes :D

Penev Profile Joined October 2012 27625 Posts #33 On May 25 2017 18:06 Yrr wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/6d72y0/in_the_wake_of_another_mod_recently_tlo_has/di0l68z/



LiquidTLO wrote:

Aaah I didn't mean to have this public yet. I wanted to write a text explaining my thoughts and goals and also realize for example that protoss still needs a Buff.(finding buffs that don't just lead to abuse for protoss is hardest) and there's a bunch of stuff that I'm considering to be different than this version that needs some testing. So please don't take these suggestions too seriously yet. :p Thanks avex for creating the mod anyway, I guess people can feel free to try this version, but it'll probably be a bit OP. Aaah I didn't mean to have this public yet. I wanted to write a text explaining my thoughts and goals and also realize for example that protoss still needs a Buff.(finding buffs that don't just lead to abuse for protoss is hardest) and there's a bunch of stuff that I'm considering to be different than this version that needs some testing. So please don't take these suggestions too seriously yet. :p Thanks avex for creating the mod anyway, I guess people can feel free to try this version, but it'll probably be a bit OP.



This should be in the OP This should be in the OP I non zerg winner, could it be?

MarianoSC2 Profile Joined June 2015 Slovakia 1266 Posts #34 On May 25 2017 17:07 Pobble wrote:

For Context, from the reddit thread:



Show nested quote +

LiquidTLO1:

Aaah I didn't mean to have this public yet. I wanted to write a text explaining my thoughts and goals and also realize for example that protoss still needs a Buff.(finding buffs that don't just lead to abuse for protoss is hardest) and there's a bunch of stuff that I'm considering to be different than this version that needs some testing. So please don't take these suggestions too seriously yet. :p Thanks avex for creating the mod anyway, I guess people can feel free to try this version, but it'll probably be a bit OP. For Context, from the reddit thread:



Well, called it. Its just a troll post to further discredit Avilo. A cry for relevance... Oh TLO how you have fallen that even a person such as Avilo is starting to look like a nice guy compared to you

TLO has no idea what he is doing and is just copying Avilos good ideas, changing them a bit and randomly adding his own which are I have to say the worst balance ideas/changes I have seen in my entire life... Sad





User was temp banned for this post. Well, called it. Its just a troll post to further discredit Avilo. A cry for relevance... Oh TLO how you have fallen that even a person such as Avilo is starting to look like a nice guy compared to youTLO has no idea what he is doing and is just copying Avilos good ideas, changing them a bit and randomly adding his own which are I have to say the worst balance ideas/changes I have seen in my entire life... Sad Rogue the Sexy Boy >= Maru >= Trap >= Neeb >= Life :(

Liquid`TLO Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Germany 754 Posts Last Edited: 2017-05-25 20:30:03 #35 Updated version, the one that went out wasn't mean to be released and was missing a lot of thing and had a bunch of errors:



Goals I hope to achieve with these changes:



I think most people agree that mass air play usually leads to relatively boring games, there’s unfortunately not too many fun interactions with mass air armies, position becomes less relevant and Deathballs a bigger problem so I increased the supply cost of each big air unit by +1 (Shouldn’t affect Tempest and Carrier as much as broodlords because Zerg needs more Broodlords usually and is more supply starved in late game)

It’s not a huge nerf but I hope it shifts the balance slightly in favour of late game ground compositions.



I’m hoping to make Zerg late game less clunky, especially in late game Zerg becomes very slow but powerful I hope to make the late game of the race play more swarmy and multi-tasking oriented with my changes.



Toning down the obvious suspects, I know this one will hurt protoss but Oracles and Adepts are sometimes too ridiculous and too important for protoss. These two units make or break Protoss in the majority of games so I realise nerfing them is huge but I think I didn’t go overboard and hope that Buffs for more normal core, less harass oriented, units can make up for it



Terran is hardest to change much but I guess that’s more of a luxury, Terran overall feels the least ‘’bullshit’’ of the races. They struggle in late game so I gave them some anti-armour buffs but I think it's usually the best approach to not change Terran too much but use them as a baseline.



This is my basic framework that I’ll start testing after WCS Challenger, nothing is written in stone, it might be a total failure and just proof yet again that balance and design is much harder than some wanna-be David Kim could ever imagine but what’s there to lose. ^_^





Zerg



Queen

-Transfuse cooldown increased from 1sec to 3sec



Hydra

-reverted 10hp Buff (due to Storm and Adept nerfs)



Ravager

-Reduced corrosive bile damage to units from 60 to 40(Still 60 vs buildings)

-Reducde corrosive bile delay from 2 to 1,5

-attack cooldown increased from 1,14 to 1,3



Infestor

- size reduced to 2/3 or 3/4 not sure yet

- lose armoured tag

- removed burrowed Fungal and Neural Parasite

- new upgrade in infestation pit gives +2 +2 to infested Terrans 150/150 75sec (Potentially Hive Tech)



Ultralisk

- Rescaled Ultralisk to 2/3 (2/3 stats, size, supply and cost) (might need to reduce armour by 1 as well, but want to see it tried out like this first )

- Cost reduced from 300/200/6 to 200/125/4

- size reduced to 2/3

- damage reduced from 35(+3) from 23(+2)

- reduced supply costs from 6 to 4

- Increased off creep movement speed from 4.13 to 4,35

- Reduced on creep movement speed from 5,37 to 5,10

(Build time stays the same, still powerful unit and you can compensate by making more of them anyway)



Broodlord

- Increased supply cost to +3 (5 in total)

- added Frenzy ability (to avoid spore lurker viper turtle styles in zvz)





Protoss



Zealot

-Increased speed from 3.15 to 3.5

-Removed Charge

-added Leg Enhancements upgrade (150/150 75sec)

-Leg Enhancements +1,3 speed and +20HP (Speed increased from 4,13 to 4,8 if you compare with charge upgrade)

(Not sure how this will work with concussive shells but curious to test, adding Frenzy to Zealots might be an option)



Adept

-Reduced Resonating Glaives from +45% to 30% increase in attack speed



Stalker

-reduced blink cooldown from 8sec to 7sec



Sentry

- increased damage from 6 to 8



Templar

-Psistorm reduced to 80% of the previous damage

-Feedback now deals half a damage point per energy

(Considering 75 energy and/or maybe just doing the Feedback or the Storm nerf. Leaning more towards nerfing Feedback than Storm tbh)



Warp Prism

-Swapped HP/Shields

-Increased Phasing Mode and Transport Mode delay from 2sec to 2,5sec



Collosus

-Increased damage from 12(+1)x2 to 14(+1)x2



Oracle

- reduced revelation duration from 60sec to 40sec

- attack cooldown increased from 0,61 to 0,71



Carrier

- Increased supply cost to 7



Tempest

- Increased supply cost 7



Assimilator

- Reduced HP/Shields from 450/450 to 300/300





Terran



Marauders

-Marauder now has a single attack again

-Reduced damage to 9(+1) and 9(+1) bonus vs armoured (so basically pre Lotv but 2 less damage, still should be better than LotV marauder in most cases especially helps them vs Ultras)



Ghost

- Cloak activation reduced from 25 energy to 10 energy

- Nuke Calldown time reduced by 2 seconds from 14 to 12



Viking

- Viking AA now is a single attack 20+2 and 4 bonus vs armoured (Should make vikings slightly more microable – no danger of cancelling 2nd shot, make them better vs corruptors and scale better into lategame as attack upgrade won’t be negated by armour upgrade)



Liberators

- Increased supply cost to 4

- decreased Advanced Ballistics bonus to +3 range

- reduced Advanced ballistics sight bonus to +2 (Attack range now 1 greater than sight)



Ravens

- Increased supply cost to 3



Battlecruisers

- rescaled dmg from 8 x 6 per second ground and 6 x 6 per second AA to

12 x 4 per second ground and 9 x 4 per second AA (DPS would be the same but would make them suffer much less from armour)

- standardised firing randomness that reduced BC DPS by 20%

- Increased supply cost to 7



Engineering Bay

- Structure Armor and Neosteel Frame merged 150/150 100sec (Because why the hell not?)

Team Liquid alea iacta est

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13347 Posts #36 On May 25 2017 18:28 MarianoSC2 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 25 2017 17:07 Pobble wrote:

For Context, from the reddit thread:



LiquidTLO1:

Aaah I didn't mean to have this public yet. I wanted to write a text explaining my thoughts and goals and also realize for example that protoss still needs a Buff.(finding buffs that don't just lead to abuse for protoss is hardest) and there's a bunch of stuff that I'm considering to be different than this version that needs some testing. So please don't take these suggestions too seriously yet. :p Thanks avex for creating the mod anyway, I guess people can feel free to try this version, but it'll probably be a bit OP. For Context, from the reddit thread:



Well, called it. Its just a troll post to further discredit Avilo. A cry for relevance... Oh TLO how you have fallen that even a person such as Avilo is starting to look like a nice guy compared to you

TLO has no idea what he is doing and is just copying Avilos good ideas, changing them a bit and randomly adding his own which are I have to say the worst balance ideas/changes I have seen in my entire life... Sad

Well, called it. Its just a troll post to further discredit Avilo. A cry for relevance... Oh TLO how you have fallen that even a person such as Avilo is starting to look like a nice guy compared to youTLO has no idea what he is doing and is just copying Avilos good ideas, changing them a bit and randomly adding his own which are I have to say the worst balance ideas/changes I have seen in my entire life... Sad



Ahhm... what??

Ahhm... what?? INnoVation

-Archangel- Profile Joined May 2010 Croatia 7416 Posts Last Edited: 2017-05-25 09:53:47 #37 From these patch notes ...seems TLO does not like Brood Lords :D

EDIT: OK seen the new patch has them at 5 not 7. I guess he does not hate them after all :D

PinoKotsBeer Profile Joined February 2014 Netherlands 1377 Posts #38 Engineering Bay

- Structure Armor and Neosteel Frame merged 150/150 100sec (Because why the hell not?)



Im hyped! neosteel doesnt get enough love in the game. http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer

InfCereal Profile Joined December 2011 Canada 1556 Posts #39 So, will TLO or liquid be hosting a $500 tournament for this, too? Cereal :: AllThingsZerg.com :: SC2Overwatch.com

Liquid`TLO Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Germany 754 Posts #40 On May 25 2017 19:15 InfCereal wrote:

So, will TLO or liquid be hosting a $500 tournament for this, too?



I'll start with a 300$ one and then if it's not a total failure I want to do a second with some possible adjustments. Won't be before WCS Jönköping tho, hoping to find a good timeslot between WCS Jönköping and WCS Valencia. I'll start with a 300$ one and then if it's not a total failure I want to do a second with some possible adjustments. Won't be before WCS Jönköping tho, hoping to find a good timeslot between WCS Jönköping and WCS Valencia. Team Liquid alea iacta est

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