In a rare, often-confrontational interview Wednesday night with Fox News host Tucker Carlson, Gov. Phil Murphy defended his decision to put New Jersey in a near-lockdown to fight the coronavirus pandemic, saying more than 3 million residents — a third of the state’s population — would have been infected if he didn’t.

And in a notable exchange, Murphy said he “wasn’t thinking of the Bill of Rights” but rather “data and science" when he issued an executive order March 21 requiring Garden State residents to stay home, banning social gatherings, and mandating nonessential businesses close until further notice to help curb the virus’ spread.

Carlson was pressing Murphy, a progressive Democrat, about how 15 people were issued summonses for violating the order by holding a large funeral near a Jewish temple in Lakewood earlier this month.

The host asked the governor why the state is prohibiting religious gatherings like funerals while liquor stores are allowed to stay open. Carlson argued that violates Americans’ right to “practice religion as they see fit" under the U.S. Bill of Rights.

“By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order?” he asked Murphy.

“That’s above my pay grade, Tucker,” the governor responded. “I wasn’t thinking of the Bill of Rights when we did this.”

“I can tell,” Carlson replied.

“We looked at the data and the science, and it says people have to stay away from each other,” Murphy while smiling. “That’s the best thing we can do to break the back of the curve of this virus.”

Carlson persisted.

“How do you have the authority to order something that so clearly contravenes the Bill of Rights?” the host asked.

“We know we need to stay away from each other, No. 1,” Murphy said. “No. 2, we do have broad authority within the state. And No. 3, we would never do that without coordinating, discussing, and hashing it out with the leaders of the faiths of New Jersey.”

Carlson asked him if he consulted an attorney before issuing his orders.

“I don’t go to the men’s room without consulting an attorney,” Murphy said. “So I guarantee you we did that.”

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As for liquor stores, Murphy explained they have been deemed essential because numerous recovery and addiction coaches “cautioned us” that the state would see “unintended mental health and addiction consequences” if they were closed. He also stressed that people can worship “virtually” at home.

Carlson hinted that liquor stores pay taxes while churches don’t.

“On what scientific basis did you decide that sitting in a church was much more dangerous than buying liquor in a liquor store?” the host asked. “I don’t understand the reasoning. I don’t want to think it had anything to do with tax revenues."

“It doesn’t have anything to do with tax revenues,” Murphy said. “Our revenues are so blown up, that would be a rounding error, trust me.”

“No one’s happy,” the governor added. “Everyone wants to get back to what they think of as the norm. And who could blame them? ... But I don’t think these are one versus the other. I think you can have both of these realities at the same time.”

The comments came one day after U.S. Attorney General William Barr weighed in on the question of restrictions related to religious gatherings during the pandemic. Barr said the Constitution "does allow some temporary restriction on our liberties that would not be tolerated in normal circumstances.” But, he said, "government may not impose special restrictions on religious activity that do not also apply to similar nonreligious activity.”

In another key moment in Wednesday’s interview, Carlson asked Murphy whether he thinks about the record unemployment that stems from the lockdown, as well as a possible increase in suicides and addiction. Nearly 577,000 New Jerseyans have applied for unemployment since the restrictions started.

“How much does that weigh on you — that the suffering this lockdown has caused might equal or perhaps outweigh what the virus does?" Carlson asked.

Murphy said “it weighs heavily.”

“And you ask yourself every day: Are you making the right decision?" the governor said.

But Murphy said the state continues to “make every call based on the facts, the data, the science as best we can” and that “the alternative” was worse.

“Had we stepped back and let this virus run amok, 3-plus million in our state would have been infected, and the healthcare system would have had no choice to have kept up with that, and the fatalities would have been multiple,” Murphy added. “Each life lost is a precious life lost. But the alternative would have been multiples of this.”

Murphy’s appearance came shortly after as conservative protestors Wednesday staged a rally against Michigan’s stay-at-orders, calling them a power grab.

In New Jersey, Murphy announced Wednesday the Garden State has now seen at least 71,030 confirmed cases and 3,156 deaths of COVID-19. Only New York has more cases and deaths among U.S. states.

And while he continues to note there are signs the rate of infection is slowing in New Jersey, Murphy said residents should expect a “new normal” even after the lockdown begins to lift. That means many restrictions will remain and there will be no mass gatherings for “the foreseeable future," the governor said.

Murphy told Carlson his comments were “directed at things like high-school graduations, religious gatherings that folks had asked me about for June.”

“I think April, the next couple of weeks is gonna be our toughest period,” the governor added. “I can’t predict with certainty into the summer.”

Carlson then pressed Murphy why the need for banning gatherings when a similar standard is not applied to “any other infectious diseases.”

“I wouldn’t say it’s a different standard,” the governor said. “Maybe it’s the way I said it today. But here’s the reality: You get that economic recovery, that responsible reopening, after you crack the back of this."

Murphy said in the absence of a vaccine — which officials say could take more than a year — there needs to be a “much broader testing regime.”

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Brent Johnson may be reached at bjohnson@njadvancemedia.com. Follow him on Twitter @johnsb01.

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