Bhasha: Many questions are being raised on defence deals — Rafale, Apache, etc. The government is taking the cover of national security.

Admiral Ramdas: What is national security? It’s not that we have to just guard the sovereignty of the territory. Why do we need to guard it?

We do that to minimise the hardships suffered by our citizens, so that they should not be under any more difficulty. We are already going through a lot as a nation. Every deal is done by political masters and now the latest thing I see with the creation of a new committee, the Defence Planning Committee, is that the NSA, a policeman, has become the supremo. It is not a good sign. We have had three chiefs of defence staff who used to coordinate defence planning and expenditure, etc. There have been repeated requests to return to the old system but the civil services, I don’t know for what reason, are afraid.

Bhasha: How does coming clear on the price of the Rafale can be a threat to national security?

Admiral Ramdas: You have every right to do so and to cover up and say it’s a government deal or somebody else’s deal is wrong. The big problem is that we don’t have a white paper on defence. We must spell out that the Army has this, the Navy has this and that the Air Force has this. This is our strategic thinking, or our threat levels, and that’s why we want budget x or y and let a good debate be held. Parliamentarians should show interest in this. You can’t say that Rs 30 crore have become Rs 300 crore or Rs 3000 crore and blame it all on "additional stuff." List the additional stuff, give the cost of each one. After all, it is public money. And unlike other jumlas, nobody is going to believe you and nobody is believing.

Tathagata: Do you concur with the view that, since 2014, there has been an unprecedented weakening of institutions?

Admiral Ramdas: Absolutely. What is tragic is that we have taken years to build these institutions, universities, places of higher learning, various institutes of management and technology and so on. It is tragic to see that they are toying with appointment of VCs. Students should have the freedom to say and do what they think is right from their point of view. There is a place for dissent in our democracy. But they are choking and killing that democratic space, which is sad. Nirmala Sitharaman, our own Defence Minister, studied in JNU. She had some views and she continues to have some views. She knows what freedom of opinion she enjoyed there. People should have freedom of expression. Only then can great minds flourish. Up to a point, you must show leadership, but you must be open to listen to the views of other people. Especially, when it comes to universities and higher institutes of art, film and culture, we must allow the future generation to come out and burst out. But we don’t, and now it’s getting tighter and tighter and someday you will see it boomerang.

Bhasha: Is there a deliberate attempt to

change the Constitution? Why are they afraid of the Constitution ?

Admiral Ramdas: I don’t know why. I can only say that if I look at it as a military situation, obviously you will only be scared or worried because certain things inside it can be used like a weapon of which you don’t know enough and yet you know that it's deadly. They are scared because the Constitution evolved over a long time. I remember that for about two years, the Constituent Assembly was debating and discussing the pros and cons. And finally, what we have, as a document, is something absolutely unique and I don’t think that you can have any matching Constitution in the world. They are scared of those parts of the Constitution which ensure freedom and equality among the people of the country. It also ensures, establishes and says that you are entitled to do this and you can eat that and go to any school and wear that dress. The RSS leadership had opposed it even back then. So, this is the reason why they are scared and want to introduce a document on the lines of what had been envisaged by Golwalkar, Savarkar and Hedgewar.

Bhasha: What do you think about this transformation into a mobocracy?

Admiral Ramdas: What is happening at the moment is complete and total anarchy. Probably, much worse will come. They are afraid that their dream of Hindurashtra is not being realised as fast as they would have liked it. These are dangerous times for our democracy.