Episode notes:



Support Our Sponsors!

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp online counseling. To get a free week go to www.BetterHelp.com/mental Must be 18.

This episode is sponsored by the podcast I Love You But I Hate Your Politics. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Other Links Mentioned

See the podcast live Sat Oct 13th - Sisyphus Brewery in Minneapolis. 5pm show with comedian Kjell Bjorgen and 8pm show with return guest Nora McInerny, host of Terrible Thanks For Asking. For tix and info go to www.SisyphusBrewing.com If event isn't posted on their website yet it will be shortly.

Ways to Help the Podcast

______________________

Subscribe via iTunes and leave a review. It costs nothing. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mental-illness-happy-hour/id427377900?mt=2

—————————————————————————

Spread the word via social media. It costs nothing.

Our website is www.mentalpod.com our FB is www.Facebook.com/mentalpod and our Twitter and Instagram are both @Mentalpod

--------------------------------------------------------------

Subscribe to Stitcher Premium for back catalog (& much more)

-Older episodes can be found ad-free exclusively at Stitcher Premium for $4.99/month. Get one month free with offer code MENTAL at signup at www.StitcherPremium.com/mentalpod

-Subscription includes all episodes, ad-free, going all the way back to ep #1 in 2011, plus back catalogs of tons of other great podcasts, standup albums, original content and more.

--------------------------------------------------------

Become a much-needed Patreon monthly-donor (with occasional rewards) for as little as $1/month at www.Patreon.com/mentalpod

Become a one-time or monthly donor via Paypal or Zelle (make payment to mentalpod@gmail.com)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try Our Sponsor’s Products/Services

---------------------------------------------------

Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 401, with my guest, James Murray. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: uh … we talk about mental shit, but I'm not a therapist. I'm a former stand-up comedian. I hosted a TV show for, uh, a bunch of years called Dinner and a Movie on TBS. So, essentially what I'm saying is that I'm a jackass that cooks chicken on basic cable, but I'm a recovering nut job, and so I have some opinions about the crazy that goes on in our heads. Our episode today, is, uh, you know, I love all the episodes that, that we put up. But, today's episode, um … I was in Belfast, and I felt like I needed to go to a support group meeting. And the only meeting that was available was in the Protestant area of Belfast. And, from what I had learned, talking to people, there's still a lot of animosity between Catholics and Protestants, despite there being a long-standing, um, peace agreement between the two. And, there is a clearly divided peace wall between the Catholic and Protestant area. And, on the Catholic side, um, is Falls Road. And on the Protestant side is Shankill Road. I mean, just the name, Shankill Road. There, there were—At the height of "The Troubles," as they called the violence between the Catholics and Protestants, um, there was a group of Protestant terrorists who call, we dubbed the Shankill Butchers. And they would abduct Catholics, torture them, kill them, and then cut them up. And the only meeting the was available (chuckles) was on Shankill Road. For those of you that, that don’t know, you, you can be pretty easily identified as Catholic or Protestant by your name, not only your first name but your last name. Protestants tend to have either English- or Scottish-sounding names, and, and Catholics, obviously, uh, usually have Irish-sounding names. And, my name is a very clearly Irish Catholic-sounding name. Now, true, I was there as a tourist, and I knew, 99 percent chance nothing is going to happen to me. But I was worried that, uh … I was a, even though I don’t practice Catholicism, that I was going to a Protestant area. And, um … It couldn’t have been lovelier, this, this meeting. They were so welcoming and kind and funny and … I, deep down, I knew it was gonna be that way. And, I didn’t expect hatred at the meeting itself. I was worried about getting in and out of a cab, maybe I would get lost, etc., etc. So, the speaker at that meeting is the guest of today's episode. And I was so struck by the … Well, I'll let you hear the episode and you'll see what it was that I was struck by about him and his story and … I also want to mention. I got a tweet from somebody last week that, um, took exception to me having, uh, someone from the IRA on, um, as a, as a guest. And, they seem to think that that was me, um, you know, giving a thumbs up to all the things that the IRA had done and that I had called, uh, I'd used the word "freedom fire," "fighter" to describe the IRA. While I do consider, um, the IRA's, uh, cause to be one of fighting oppression, I'm greatly opposed to the manner in which they did a lot of their, um, rebellion and fighting, and I thought that that was pretty clear in the episode when my guest, who was a former IRA soldier, volunteer, whatever you want to call it, said that he was opposed to the targeting of civilians. And, I thought it was pretty clear that I would also (chuckles), also be opposed to that. And he took responsibility for that. And I do consider what they, uh, did when they targeted civilians, I do consider that to be terrorism. But, the initial, initial fight for freedom the IRA started, um, in the later 60s, early 70s, um, I do consider that to be a fight for freedom. And, there is my two cents.

[00:05:39] I am coming to Minneapolis again October 15th, it's a Saturday and we're gonna do two shows. It's gonna be at Sisyphus Brewery, again—and I'll put the links to all this stuff up on the web site—uh, at 5 o'clock. I'm gonna do a show with, uh, Kjell Bjorgen, who's a really funny stand-up comedian. And, then, at 8 o'clock, uh, Nora McInerny, the host of Terrible, Thanks for Asking, is gonna make a return visit. And, this time, instead of her sharing her story, which we did on a previous episode with her, uh, she and I are gonna exchange fears and loves. And we are gonna take questions from the audience. And also, here's some fears and loves from the audience members. So, if you are the type that likes to, uh, participate or you just wanna come in general, um, that show's gonna be at 8 o'clock.

[00:06:30] All right, let's get to it. This is an awfulsome moment—Oh, and most of the surveys of this, uh, this, today's episode, are gonna be people's, people recounting their experiences, uh, being hospitalized in, uh, psych wards. Couple of other, uh, surveys as well, but there was just a really interesting, um, batch of surveys filled out on that topic. And some really beautiful ones. Some painful ones, obviously, but also some really, uh, bittersweet ones. So, uh, this is an awfulsome moment filled out by, uh, woman who calls herself "Surrounded by Gray." She writes, "Growing up, my mother was addicted to meth. I didn’t really know until I was about 14. Once I found out, my whole world came crashing down. My mother was my everything. I looked up to her and wanted to be like her. I didn’t notice all the signs of her drug use, and I guess I thought the way she was acting was normal—which, once I became an adult, I realized it wasn’t normal and it was pretty fucked up. Anyway, there was this incident that happened when I was 13. I thought it was funny at one point, but it is pretty messed up, now that I am writing it and thinking about it again. So, there would have been, there about six people who lived in our house. We lived with my grandparents and I had four siblings. Two of them lived with my dad and would visit part-time. Every time we got a treat, like soda or fast food or anything that was out of the normal, we would always put it in the fridge and cause a scene when someone took our food. On this particular day, I had a 20-ounce Hawaiian Punch bottle that I was saving for later. Later came, and I couldn’t find my stupid Hawaiian Punch. I looked everywhere, and found it in my mom's room in the trash with the same amount of soda let in it that I had left. So, my dumb ass gets it out of the trash, thinking they threw it away by mistake, and I drank the whole bottle. Well, later that night, I was up at midnight, looking for the cordless phone outside. I wasn’t tired, I was full of energy. I found out, after my mom had asked me about the Hawaiian Punch and whether I drank it or not, found out the soda that I had drank was used as bong water for her meth bong. So, yeah, I high on meth at 13, acting a fool looking for a stupid cordless phone in the middle of the night. Nevertheless, I learned not to drink or take anything out of the trash." (Chuckles) Thank you for that.

[00:09:12] One of the sponsors for today's episode is betterhelp.com. I've raved about them many times. The feedback from you guys, uh, who are using it is fantastic. They offer online counseling. You can communicate in a variety of ways: through video, email, audio, live text, um, you name it. So, uh, check it out. Go to betterhelp.com/mental; make sure you include the "/mental" so they know you came from this podcast. Fill out a questionnaire and they'll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor, and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if, uh, online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:09:57] And then this is a, uh, just a very brief psych ward experience, uh, recounted by "Shannon." And, uh, she was hospitalized for an eating disorder, and "describe your experience," she writes, "It was intense. Full of emotion at every point. Eating disorder patients are kept in a room of the unit where most patients are 80+, struggling with dementia. There was a part of it that was extremely comforting though: being cared for, being able to snuggle up in my little bed and rest, be at peace, not have to think about any commitments or anything else, because I have the most real excuse that no one will ever deny. I'm in the hospital.

Intro

[00:11:51] Paul: I'm here with James Murray, who I met last night, uh, at a support group meeting. I decided to, uh, to go to one. And, you were the speaker. And I was so moved by … you just sharing your story and your honesty and, um, everything. I invited James to, to come be on the podcast. And he's been kind enough, or stupid enough, to trust me. And so here we are in, in Belfast in my hotel room. And where do we start with your story? You're how old?

James: Coming up on 49 on the 30th of July (chuckles), so it's (unintelligible) my birthday.

Paul: Well, apologies in advance.

James: (Chuckles)

Paul: And you’ve been sober how long?

James: Three and a half years now.

Paul: Let's start with the, the story. The, the, the story that people in Belfast might know of, uh, what you encountered.

James: Yeah, well, sort of back in 1992, you know, "The Troubles" were pretty bad. You would have an awful lot of, uh, you would call it tit-for-tat killings. Where, like, the IRA would kill a Protestant. Protestants would kill a Catholic, and stuff like that there. And, uh, you know, it was usually taxi drivers or security forces. And then—

Paul: Being killed or killing?

James: Oh, uh, being both.

Paul: Okay.

James: Both really. But then, there was a pretty horrendous attack on a bookmakers, which is a TAB, uh—

Paul: Which stands for?

James: Off-track, uh, uh, bookmakers. They're tariff accountants, but it's, in America it would be off-track betting—

Paul: Right.

James: You know, it's completely legal, but, uh … A month before the shooting in my office, there was an attack on a Catholic bookmakers (unintelligible) Road. And five people were killed. And from that on, I just was waiting for it to actually happen. So, it was the 14th of the 11th 1992.

Paul: And, and you were raised Catholic.

James: Yeah, yeah. But, but (chuckles), the irony of all ironies is I'm a Catholic; my wife's a Protestant, and we got married on the 12th of July, which is a bone of contention. But, uh, yeah, so, with my upbringing I had both Catholic and Protestant friends. But, on the, uh, yeah, it was the 14th, uh, of the 11th, 1992, and the next this is there'd been an attack in (unintelligible), where the IRA had burned down some shops. So, at 3:55 on a Saturday, the door opened of, of our office, it was like, say, maybe 40 people in it. And, uh, it was members of the UFF, which was the Ulster's Volunteer Force. Stood in the door with a AK-47 and blasted in the, you know, a room that might have been, say, maybe 25 feet by maybe, say, 50 feet. It was just basically full of, like, older men, uh, fired off two magazines, then threw in a hand grenade. And, you know, it was carnage, like, three people were killed … it was 36 other people were injured and stuff like that. And, then the next day, you know, I'll never forget sort of … you know, like, obviously there was, it was just mayhem. It was like being in a war scene. And, I, I remember going to bed that night and I remember I woke up, and there was a millisecond where it was like a dream. And then I realized it had happened. You know, then after that, I ended up having to carry three coffins in one day. And, you know, that can trigger an awful lot of rage. And, you know, it did, but, um—

Paul: And, and the previous, um, bookmaking … attack had been against Catholics as well?

James: Yeah. Yeah. It's just because in Northern Ireland, you know, in a Catholic area, you would have a lot of Catholics gathered in one place—

Paul: So they're just looking for, be it a pub or a bookie or—

James: Exactly. Yeah, so, like it was a—

Paul: A funeral.

James: It was, yeah. It was in our office. But, uh, you know, it was kinda, it was kinda weird because, you know, being the person I am (chuckles), I decided I wasn't gonna let it terrorize me. And, I—

Paul: Is there, is there a choice (chuckles)?

James: Yeah. Well, you know, some people, you know, I got shot on a Saturday, and went to work on a Monday.

Paul: Where did you get shot?

James: In the leg.

Paul: Yeah.

James: And, uh, I made a conscious decision to … that I wasn’t gonna be terrorized.

Paul: Did you think you were gonna die when you got shot?

James: I didn’t even notice. Think it was the adrenaline stuff, and getting people in ambulances, I didn’t even notice I'd been shot until policeman actually pointed out I was bleeding. But, you know, that's kind of, some part irrelevant.

Paul: Right.

James: But, the, the crazy thing—and it was kind of one of the things that actually helped my recovery, was—that didn’t come to many, many years later. But, uh, after a month of this going on, my dad, uh, asked me to go and see a priest that was a family friend. And, uh, I went over and this guy wasn’t your normal priest (chuckles). I remember going over to see him, and I was the angriest man in the world. And, and I'd been to see a fortune teller, which was even weirder before this. And fortune teller had told me that you're gonna be death and murder and destruction, and you're not gonna die. And, the tarot cards and all this here. It actually turned out, three weeks later, that the shooting happened, and he told me about a red car—there was a red car used. And, it was all kind of freaky. But when I went over to see this relation who was a priest, I was the angriest man in the world. And I remember screaming at him, and, uh, in his priest house. And like, "Where the fuck was your god?!" And, the crazy thing that happened was, which I didn't see come for me, was I actually turned 'round and said, "Do you believe in tarot cards?" And he says, "Yeah, of course I do." And this really threw me (Paul chuckles), and … so, "What, what are you talking about? But you're a Catholic priest." He just explained to me how there's good and evil, you have free will, and, and I, I couldn’t hate these people because of the fact they weren’t operating under free will. This kind of was crazy concept for me, but …

Paul: How, how were they not operating under free will?

James: He, he, was saying that, you know, in the same way that, that, you know, the lost are free willed, cuz that I couldn’t hate them because it, you know, there was an element of evil involved in all of this. And, that really freaked me out. But, I, I had an absolutely crazy experience the next day that, uh, you gotta remember I was incredibly, incredibly angry, that I then, he took me into the church the next day, and, uh, he brought me under the alter, and, you know, he started praying and, talking in tongues. And he put his hands on my head—until the day I die, I will never forget it. He, it quite literally felt like this man's hands were gonna burn through my skull. Even to the fact that afterwards, I found my younger brother and says to him, "Something really weird's happened to me. Whatever you do, never, ever go into that church with Father Michael and never, ever let him bless you." So, later on in my life, when I was absolutely broken with alcoholism, that, you know, and I, and I went to this recovery group and (chuckles) (unintelligible) mentioned about a higher power. Like, I was some many million miles away from it, but I did always go back to that experience. And, you know, and, I've had other further experiences in life, where I came to understand that, you know, that Father Michael was right. Like, I went to Auschwitz, cuz I wanted to find out how the human beings could be so (unintelligible) inhumane to other human beings. And when you go to Auschwitz, you can feel it. You know, like, if I go to my recovery group, I can feel the power of good. But when you go to a place like Auschwitz, you feel the opposite. You feel this oppressive, oppressive evil. And, you know, when I went to Auschwitz, I asked the question of this Polish, um, you know, tour guide. And I said to him, but like, you gotta imagine, that they killed a million people there. So, people like my age must have got up every morning and kissed they wife and their kids, you know, and off to work. And they must have come back and complained and been, you know, "Flip me, that furnace was broken." You know, so what happens to the human being, and—

Paul: That they can just compartmentalize that and go about their jobs sweeping the ashes out.

James: Exactly. You know, and … I find that a really healing thing, going to Auschwitz and realizing, you know, that inside every human, there is absolute good. But inside every human, myself included, there can be absolute evil. And, you know, that, that, that was a, a really big eye-opening thing. And, I, I quite literally couldn’t have a (unintelligible). You know? I would always be looking at doors and stuff like that.

Paul: After, after it happened.

James: Yeah. Equally, like, you know, that I was approached by, you know, organizations here and in Northern Ireland, you know, to try for, like, revenge, you know. But even then, I realized, what is that gonna achieve me, going and killing somebody else?

Paul: Right.

James: You're just keeping that cycle going. Yeah, like … I kinda look back at it and, you know, the hard part was, the hardest part, the hardest part in all of that … And, like, it would always sort of—not, not so much be with me now, because, you know … I don’t regret the past, haven’t shut the door on it. But, the bit that was the hardest to take was going to the, the wakes of the people who had been murdered. You know, you go to someone's died in a car crash and stuff like that, that's sad. But you go to the wake of somebody who's been ripped away from a family. You know, that's a different thing. You know, that, that level of hatred—But, the crazy thing was that, you know, growing up in Northern Ireland, I then had to leave Northern Ireland, not because I was (unintelligible). Like, everything became … It did matter if it was a, a soldier got killed by the IRA, or it was a Catholic get killed or a Protestant get killed. Every time somebody got killed, I went back in my head to the wake, so it didn’t matter. It didn’t matter, you know, which organization killed which. Alls that matter to me was that family and that feeling of loss and stuff like that. They are, that, that was probably the hardest bit. I really did feel guilty that I had survived. You know, that … and, you know, you're so powerless. You know, and then to go and find out I have an addiction and I'm powerless over it, too. You know—

Paul: Add it to the list!

James: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. But … yeah. That, that bit was, was tricky. You know, and then I took myself off around the world for two years, which was brilliant, you know. I did enjoy that, but (chuckles) like at that stage, I was, you know, (unintelligible) drink my way around the entire world. But, yeah, just doing that. But, um … Yeah, but for, for me, I gotta say that, the biggest turning point in entire life was sobriety. You know, that part there has been the most wonderful thing in my entire existence. You know—

Paul: One of the things that struck me, uh, you know, when I saw you last night and you were sharing your story, was the joy that being of service and helping people who are new in the fellowship, uh, brings you, because your face would just light up, you know, after—Why's my phone ringing? And, uh, after the, the meeting was over, uh, your car was, you gave me a ride home, and your car was filled with people that you're helping. And … I can't help but think that is a huge part of what brings you closer to your higher power, fills you with esteem, and gives you the choice to do, w-w, you know, what, what would Jesus do—

James: Yeah!

Paul: When you're feeling good about yourself—

James: Yeah.

Paul: —it's easier—

James: Yeah!

Paul: —to make the moral choice.

James: The … the more that I have got involved in my own recovery, the more I have felt that good, like, to the part where, uh, you know, as I was saying last night, that as part of my recovery I went to the grave of, of the guy who actually did the shooting and, you know, it's pretty well known because, you know, they gave him a nickname of "Top Gun." And they gave the nickname of "Top Gun," because every year there was an award for killing the most amount of Catholics.

Paul: Really?!

James: Absolutely. And he was given this award, and—

Paul: Was he in jail at that point?

James: No. No, no, no.

Paul: So, it was just underground, it was known who had done this.

James: Yeah, exact-, exactly. Yeah, uh—

Paul: And, was it because the RUC was kind of in cahoots—

James: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It was more just, with that organization that they did this. But—

Paul: But, if you could know who it was that shot you, how could the police who should be investigating this, not know that?

James: Well, you know, there's all this thing about collusion with the security forces and stuff like that. And, you know, obviously, it is gone on. They've had so many inquiries and stuff like that. But, for me, on a personal level, uh, I actually sort of put in the name of our, uh, shop in the Wikipedia, and it came up. And then, you know, read about this guy and I found out where he was buried. And, uh, I then went and bought flowers and went up to this guy's grave. And, it's probably one of the most healing things I've ever experienced.

Paul: How long ago was this?

James: This was about a month ago. And … yeah, about two weeks ago. And just to go up to the guy's grave and stand there and weirdly, you know, or very sadly, he, he died of a drugs overdose. And, and to be standing there looking at the grave of somebody who had died of an illness that can kill me, and to have no hatred for this guy, and to sit an pray the Our Father and, like, the words of that prayer became so apparent to me. You know, forgive those who have trespassed against you. And, you know, keep me away from temptation. But deliver me from evil. And, I really did genuinely have … I, like, I ended up traveling around the world for a couple of years. And in 19-, 1993 Pulp Fiction came out. And, actually, the bit in Pulp Fiction with the, uh, where Samuel L. Johnson standing there and the guy comes out with a hand cannon and blasts away at him, and there's all the bullet holes in wall behind him. I had exactly the same experience, where I was behind a wooden counter. There was all these bullet holes, and when I, I phoned my father and told him that I was in, you know, "Don't come up to the office. There's been a shooting," because it literally was rivers of blood. And I'm not saying that to be, you know, that's what it was like. And I told my dad not to come up. And he came up, and he saw where the bullet holes were, and he says, "Where were you?" And I went, "There." And I remember the two of us looking at it and going, it was a miracle. But the weird (chuckles) thing was—I was obviously still drinking in 1992—and the first thing that dawned on me, uh, (chuckles) in fact, when we were in New York in Times Square, and we went to the cinema, I knew nothing about Pulp Fiction. But thing that I do remember was that they served alcohol in, uh, (chuckles) in cinemas. And I thought, "God I gotta move to America. This place is fantastic (Paul laughs)." But it was the craziest thing to see that. And it was actually even crazier, looking back on my life now, that it (chuckles) (unintelligible) maybe it's Samuel L. Jackson, then turns 'round and says, "No, I'm sorry. You know, I can't do this anymore. I'm gonna find a more peaceful way to get through my life." And, and that has been my experience. Like, the, the more I turn towards my sobriety, the more peace I have got and, you know, to be able to stand there at that guy's grave and pray for him and—I noticed he was a father—to pray for his, his, uh, his son. And, just to feel this absolute feeling of peace. And as I said last night, I then turned around and looked at the grave, facing it, because the sun was coming from behind it, the only thing I could see at the bottom of the grave was, "Thy Will Be Done." And I ended looking up to heaven, going, "Okay, god, I get it." I went to get my phone—

Paul: Is that, because that's a part of a prayer that you say every day?

James: Yeah, it was, it's part, part of … yeah. You know, to try to live my life not by my will, but by somebody else's and, you know, I choose to call that person god. But, uh … And then when I went back and took a photograph of it—my surname's Murray—it was on the tombstone, facing his, and I just thought, you could not make this up for one second. And then, that really, really, crazy part was, and later on that day, I got a phone call from one of the people I'm helping in the organization. And he told me he was with this person, and he was really, really sick and they were suicidal. And, to then go down and end up in this guy's house, and he needed help, and then to find out that he, he would have had links to the similar organization. And, like, only the divine could plan that—

Paul: To the similar organization that—

James: That did, that did the shooting.

Paul: Oh really?! So, you went to go help a fellow alcoholic—

James: Yeah.

Paul: —who formerly belonged to the organization that shot you.

James: Exactly.

Paul: Wow!

James: Exactly. And, when we were sitting there, and, like, he had a couple of drinks and stuff like that. And I was talking to him and, you know, I had told him what had happened. And I told him about my suicide attempt. And he told me that that day, that he was just about to, uh, jump off his balcony with a, uh, vacuum cleaner cable tied around his neck. And we were laughing. You know, just in that moment, that was two human beings talking to one another. And he said to me, "I can't believe that, that you're here to help me." And I said, "Look." (Chuckles) I says, "I gotta tell ya, that your higher power and my higher power has got some sense of humor. That they day I'm up at the grave of someone who tried to kill me. And later on that evening, I'm sitting talking to your guy, and wanting everything that I've got for you to have." It just blew me away, and, you know, if I didn’t believe in god, I certainly believed in him even more that day. And, you know, and I … it just shows you that you can either run around with all that hate in your heart, or you can get rid of it all and live in love and, you know, and … Equally, I'm, I'm trying to get in contact with the commander of that organization, cuz he's still alive, to phone up and make amends to him. And, granted I didn't do anything on him, but, you know, people can turn around and say, oh I forgive that person. But unless you tell that person that they're forgiven, well they're not gonna feel the power of god. You know, how can they know unless you go and tell them. And … I take that stuff all very seriously now, with a good laugh. You know, I have a very good sense of humor about things now, which I didn’t. Cuz, like, I had such bone-crushing depression, that, you know, I, I tried to end my life.

Paul: I think some people listening to this would say, "Yes, I would love to not have hate inside me. But how the fuck do I get it out of me?" Because it's … in my opinion, it's not just something you can just say, I choose to not have hate in my heart. It, to me, it's a byproduct of some type of spiritual practice or experience or, uh, some type of … something.

James: Yeah. For me, that, that was the whole thing. That, you know, I had a choice to make. I was either gonna be consumed by evil, which could have definitely happened to me. It was only when I came into, you know, my recovery group, and had to go through, you know, the program, and I had to look at myself, which I'd never done, and I had to look at all of my wrongs, and I had to change the way I looked at everything. And, you know, to realize that, you know, I'd done a lot of stupid things through alcohol, too. Like, I'm not a violent person. But, I, I nearly murdered two people. You know, two, two people, you know, two partners of mine were assaulted. So, when you, you know—

Paul: What do, what do you mean when you say two partners?

James: Females partners who have been sexually assaulted. Two exact same things, and—

Paul: Hold, hold on. I'm unclear. They were assaulted by you?

James: Oh, no, gee, no, no, no! By two other men—

Paul: Oh, I see.

James: —in a sexual manner.

Paul: And, and you went after them?

James: Yeah, like crazy with alcohol. You know, and I'm not a violent person. So, you know, when I had to look at that, you know, and I've made amends to these people, or one of them. And, you know, and I looked at my own life, and, you know, it's a lot easier. And I'm not violent in any way. It's just not part of my nature. But, you know, I have been able to see that, you know, inside me there's a spiritual sickness. So, I can then see it more so in other people. And, that has given me the ability to forgive other people. When I looked at my own wrongs in my life, it was a lot then, a lot easier to look at other people, and everybody's spiritually sick. It's at what level you're spiritually sick—

Paul: Which, which part of our part are we on.

James: Yeah. You know, and, there was one time, in my early sobriety, where—and I was gonna drink, and I genuinely think this saved my life, where there's this, there was this woman called Carol. And I was just about to walk out the door and go straight and buy a beer, or whatever. And this woman turned around and saved my life, by telling me this story—most people might hear this, but most people won't—about, like, you know, a red Indian was explaining to, to children about how that there's two wolves inside you, you know, the white wolf and the black wolf. And they're at war and they're trying to kill each other. And one of the kids says, "Well, what, what are they?" And the white one's love, compassion, friendship; dark wolf's hatred, murder, you know, all the negative emotions. Which one wins? The one you feed the most. And when I heard that, and she then said to me, "Where were you about to go? Which wolf were you about to feed?" And I looked at her and started crying, and I says, "The wrong one." So, you know, when you have those small moments that are actually massive moments, you can see that inside each and every one of us, there is good, but there is dark.

Paul: Yeah.

James: And, you know, the more, you know, that I can find forgiveness in that, the closer I move to the divine. And, you know, and, things that I never, ever, ever thought I would be able to do, now have become so much easier and … you know, like, that's the freedom I, I didn't realize just how sick I was. And when you realize you're pretty sick, and you realize, well, what do I have to do to get better? And … you know, it just boils down to a really, really, really simple thing. And it's to have constant thought of others, love god's children. And, you know, as soon as I turned that corner—and don't get me wrong, I'm not the bucking Dalai Lama, like, you know. But …

Paul: What's the right thing to do, in any given moment?

James: Yeah. What would Jesus do (laughs)? You pretty much gets your answer pretty quickly. And in my case, it's invariably, "Fuck me, not what I was about to do (Paul laughs)!" Like, that, that's the other good thing about sobriety. I did do many fucking stupid things, that I had to drink to do a lot of the things I was gonna do. You know, now I don’t do all those stupid-ass things. I don’t have to drink. You know, and there's a massive freedom from that, and, you know, you can just … life's easier. You know …

Paul: Can you talk about, uh, your experience with, uh, ayahuasca … if you're, if you're comfortable?

James: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It was weird, what, what happened with the ayahuasca. The way I would sum it up is, is you can lie to your therapist. You can (chuckles) lie to your doctor. You can lie to your sponsor. You CANNOT lie to this stuff. Once it's inside you, it's inside you, and you're, you're along for the ride, like. But, so, when I, he was explaining this to me, I turned around, I says, "That's cheating. That sounds like Steps Four and Five." I says, "But you're doing it that way." But, you know, it was kinda weird, because …

Paul: Because it's essentially a purging of the darkness inside of you—

James: Yeah!

Paul:—of whether it's something you do or things that were done to you.

James: Yeah. And like, you know, I was a bit worried, because I thought, "Flip me. Should I, shouldn't be doing this, this stuff like that there," and—

Paul: But, it's not done for pleasure. It's a HORRIBLE experience.

James: It is, it is … one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life. But—and there's a but … You know, it is, it is an unbelievable experience. Like, I touched the divine. And I've been a pretty spiritual person. It made me more spiritual. Now, it would never replace my fellowship. But, as a complimentary thing … it's an unbelievable thing. Like, of 200,000 plants in the Amazon, if you take these two plants, one first then the other one, this happens. And, you know, it's, when you have a pharmaceutical industry that is just throwing drugs into people, and they're legal and this is illegal, it does not make any sense.

Paul: Cuz they haven’t figured out how to control it.

James: Exactly! Of course! And, you know, but it's not easy. Like, it is not something you would take lightly. And, if anybody was to ever think it's a recreational drug, they want to try it, and I'm being facetious about that. Like, it is something that you would not go into lightly. And, you know, like you have to watch your diet for months before you do it. And it's a full-on spiritual experience, like. But—

Paul: But there's vomiting, and there's hallucinations—

James: Oh, there's vomiting. And there's diarrhea. And there's … But it's the visions and stuff like that there—

Paul: So, what happened?

James: Uh … I, I experienced … I had to relive through the shooting in the office. And … the thing that I took out of it was that I had looked for all the answers in all the wrong places, you know. And … that, that the entire thing, the … EVERYTHING is just all-around love. That love is quite LITERALLY the most important thing. You know, and it … You try to let it into your life, it'll come it. But, if you try to keep it out, it'll keep, keep out. But, you know, that is the, the one thing that, from doing ayahuasca, that I took from it the most.

Paul: What?

James: Is, is that feeling of love and, and connectedness, and how that we are actually all connected.

Paul: What do you recall reliving? And, whatever details you're comfortable sharing.

James: It's hard to explain. You know, it's … just the fact that how destructive that my behaviors had been towards myself and towards others. And, you know, that there is a divine, and that the divine wants best for you. And, you know, that … that we make the wrong decisions and that there's forgiveness, and you have to forgive yourself. And … it's an incredibly, incredibly emotional experience. But, you know, and like, statistically, like (unintelligible), that, you know, the instances for treating depression are through the roof. I think it's like 80 percent of people who do it, their depression goes on, on the first time of taking it. For Class A drugs, that's your cocaine and, in Britain that's your Class As, your cocaines, heroine, amphetamines and stuff. Like, the success rates on it are absolutely COLOSSALLY huge. You know, and—

Paul: For, for, uh, substance abuse, overcoming substance abuse with those things?

James: HUGE! Massively, massively high. Especially with cocaine. You know, with cocaine, you know, it's, it's incredibly high. You know, but for me, uh, you know, it's … it would never replace my fellowship. But, you know, for me, it's, for me, it's—as I said earlier on—it's the constant contact with other human beings and, you know, wanting to help people. That, that's where my tree of happiness comes from. And, you know, that before I thought it was things like money, power, prestige, and stuff like that there. It's not. You know, I've had all those things; it didn’t work. And …

Paul: So when, when you had the ayahuasca experience, were there—you said you relived it—were there moments that you relived where there was now something that you saw or felt differently in it, or that you had suppressed?

James: Yeah, it just let you look at it and be aware of it. And, to be like an outsider looking in at it, and—

Paul: Without fear?

James: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: So, it was like you were watching a, a movie?

James: Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, when I tried to kill myself, you know, I was able to see that as well. And … it just … loads of different things. You know, the ayahuasca, for somebody who is, like, suffering depression and stuff like that, like I really would recommend it, you know. And …

Paul: And, from what I understand, it's really, really important you do it with somebody who is credible and experienced. And I don't know how you find who those people are, but, um—

James: Without any shadow of a doubt. Like it would be very, very important that the person you're doing it with knows what they're doing.

Paul: And I can't speak on ayahuasca because I've never tried it. But people I know and whose opinion I trust, have, uh, had success with it, lifting their depression, if not permanent, uh, temporarily.

James: Yeah. Yeah, it is But, no, the one thing I would absolutely say is if anybody's every gonna do it, that they would have to be incredibly careful if they happen to be taking antidepressants and ayahuasca. You cannot take the two things. You know, there's a really, you know … it could be life threatening. Like, when I look at Donald Trump, and I have these massive negative feelings towards him. But then, if I want to be completely and utterly honest, you know, the massively negative parts of his character, I had all of them.

Paul: Yeah. Me, too.

James: You know, and that's the thing that, you know, that when you look at the narcissism and stuff like that, as a drinking alcoholic, I had all those traits!

Paul: Yeah. Insensitivity—

James: Ah, complete, you know, and—

Paul: Being a braggart. Being insecure. Being needy—

James: Ah, like a lunatic! Like a lunatic!

Paul: Yeah.

James: And that's, that's why (chuckles) I criticize him. You know, I gotta (unintelligible), that what I'm saying about. It's when you see traits and you go, "That was so me."

Paul: But you and I were smart enough to not run for president—

James: Definitely!

Paul: —cuz we know we're assholes!

James: Completely (chuckles)! And if I look at my history—

Paul: That's where we're better than him.

James: Yeah.

Paul: Yes.

James: You know. But, back in the day, my whole thing would have been, you know, to make tons and tons of money. Now, my whole thing is, is, is that I really do truly believe that the mobile phone is gonna destroy society, and that there has to be some control over it. Before, I would have wanted money. Now, it's not, you know, because I realize deeply that, like us talking to one another and being able to look in one another's eyes and stuff like that, that's where it is.

Paul: I'm looking through you, just for the record.

James: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah. But you know what I mean.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes.

James: And, like, you know, now what we've become … everybody, we're walking around looking at our hands.

Paul: Um-hum.

James: And if I, if you walk into a restaurant now and look around, everybody is sitting staring at their hand. So, as, as people who've taken drugs and alcohol, if I was to sell somebody a drug that made you just look at your hand, you would say there is no way I'm taking that (chuckles). But there we are, all fucking dopamine crazy, looking at our hands, looking for the likes and stuff like that there and, you know, that's the bit for me, where, you know, it's just helping other people and helping other people and helping myself. Right, no losers.

Paul: It's a, a beautiful thing. Well, James, thanks. Thanks so much for sharing your story and, uh, being my, my short-term pal here in, uh, in Belfast. It's, uh, you know, in my, in my opinion it was no accident that our paths crossed last night—

James: No, I don't think so, Paul.

Paul: Yes. And I love, too, that it was in a Protestant area.

James: Yeah!

Paul: Shankill Road.

James: Yeah.

Paul: Who knew? I was afraid to go there, and I have one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. Just shows how much I know.

James: (Laughs).

Paul: Thanks, buddy.

James: Thanks.

End of Interview

[00:48:18] Many, many thanks to, to James. Before we take it out with some, uh, really good surveys, I want to tell you guys about one of our sponsors: the podcast called I Love You, But I Hate Your Politics. You've, you've had that deal happen on Facebook: somebody, uh, from your life, you know, maybe you knew 'em from college or your hometown. And you like 'em, but you really, really despise their politics. And you don’t really know what to do. Do I call 'em on it? Do I want to get into some drawn-out battle? Do I unfriend 'em? Whadaya, whadaya do? Or maybe it's that thing, where you're going home for the holidays, and you just don’t wanna have that argument, but you also can't STAND sitting around the table hearing people spout stuff you disagree with. Well, I Love You, But I Hate Your Politics is the remedy for ALL that awkwardness and anxiety. Therapist Jeanne Safer uses her expertise to help couple and friends who care about each other, but just can't see eye-to-eye on political issues. She'll help you find epathy … Did I say epathy? Empathy. And communicate better with your loved ones. So, stop unfriending all your cousins. Do unfriend your, your nieces and nephews; they're HORRIBLE people. Just find I Love You, But I Hate Your Politics wherever you listen to podcasts, and hit subscribe. Also, hit subscribe for this podcast. It is a great way to help out that … costs you, uh, nothing, other than a click. The calories of, uh, clicking … with your thumb or index finger. Maybe you use a middle finger. That'd be a really passive-aggressive way to subscribe to the podcast (chuckles). Click on it with you middle finger.

[00:50:14] I wanna read an email that I got that I suppose is half email, half, uh, me asking you to help the show. And it's from "Carolyn," and she writes, "Hi, Paul. I wanted to send you some love and say thank you for the podcast. It's amazing and beautiful. It's been so very helpful. I also wanted to send you some love for moving the back catalogue to Stitcher Premium. I've been listening to the podcast, and it seems you've been getting some hate lately for moving the back catalogue. So I thought I would write in to tell you how much I am freaking lover (Paul makes correction), freaking loving Stitcher Premium. I work a boring desk job and have anxiety and depression as a result of complex PTSD. My mind has a tendency to quickly wander to the darkest of places, and I distract myself with podcasts and audiobooks. I've been using Stitcher Premium to keep my mind busy, and am especially loving the stand-up comedy albums. I'm a newish listener to the show and now getting to listen to the older episodes for the first time. I just listened to the Maria Bamford episode and also to the episode where you get interviewed and really enjoyed both of them. Anyway, I will stop rambling. But I just wanted to say thanks for the podcast. It's helped me feel less alone. I am at the beginning of my healing journey, and listening to you and your guests gives me hope for my future and my ability to heal. Thanks for everything, Carolyn." And, uh, thank you, uh, so much for saying that. And some of the other guests that you can, uh, listen to on Stitcher Premium, uh: Tiffany Haddish, Marc Maron, Melissa Villasenor, um, NHL Theo Fleury , Aisha Tyler, Scott Thompson, Kathryn Hahn, Nikki Glaser, Rob Delaney, Paul F. Thompkins, tons of great therapists, authors like Dr. Elyn Saks, who wrote The Center Cannot Hold, uh, Caitlin Doughty… All kinds of, all kinds of great, great guests. And, um, when you do sign up for Stitcher Premium, um, use the link through our web site, uh, or, um, make sure that you, when you sign up, you let them know that you can from our podcast. Otherwise, it's, it defeats the purpose of, uh, helping the show, because I won't get credit for it and I won't get, uh, any money for it. And that's the whole reason I had to move it, it to, to keep the show going. Cuz, uh, financially, we need, we need help. And I've listed a whole bunch of ways that you can help this show out, both financially and non-financially; it's in the show notes of all the recent episodes. So, um, go do that.

[00:52:57] Let's get to some surveys. This one is a psych ward experience filled out by, uh, "Squeak," and she was hospitalized for bulimia and borderline personality disorder. And she writes, "I was there for six months. It helped a lot, but I left too soon in order not to miss too much school." Oh, I'm sorry; Squeak is, uh, gender-fluid. Apologize for that. Is there a social justice warrior that's gonna shame me now for doing that?!

[00:53:30] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by "Sad Cathy," who writes (chuckles), "Lying in my bed on a Friday night with all the lights off, pretending I'm not home, thinking about how lonely I am and how much everyone hates me, while all my floor mates are pounding on my dorm room door trying to get me to hang out with them." Boy, in a nutshell, that is the disconnect between the mental and the emotional. Understanding people, that … you know, that people wanna be hanging out with us, but emotionally, just that, that foggy brick wall that keeps us from doing something.

[00:54:09] This was filled out by "Dan," and it's a psych ward experience survey. He was hospitalized for a variety of things, uh, over many occasions—three different occasions: psychosis, seizures, uh, insomnia, and PTSD. In one sentence, describe your experience as a patient or visitor: "I have been badly abused in a lot of hospitals."

[00:54:38] This was filled out by "Looney Tunes," and he writes, "At 10, I was court-ordered to be in the mental hospital after a failed suicide attempt and attempting to stab my father and sister. It was a safe place, where I wasn't being abused. It was helpful; I think it stopped me from wanting to die. I just needed to rest." At 10! I can't even imagine … what that home life was like. At 22, he was hospitalized for a failed suicide attempt. He writes, "It was a safe three days, but was not helpful." And at 27, brought by the police after cutting himself at a park. And he writes, "It was helpful. It helped me to get my medication straight." Thank you for that. And that, kind of in a nutshell, almost encapsulates the variety of, uh, you know, probably about three-quarters of the experiences that I read about and the people have, uh, shared on this survey.

[00:55:44] "Teenage Love Killed Me Inside," who is gender-fluid, uh, was hospitalized for, uh … I'll just read it. "I was hospitalized for trying to kill myself. I took my sister's entire bottle of Zoloft, then got scared and called 911 and was admitted to my local hospital. I was 15 years old. I was the youngest person in this mental ward. The lady that was closest to my age was 69. I spent a few days in bed with the shakes and then sat in the living room and watched TV for the rest of my time there. There were no organized groups. There was a phone that was free to use and call anyone we wanted. I spent most of my time on the phone, talking to the boyfriend that I had who caused me to wanna kill myself. He was abusive, mental and physical. And, of course, now, he was fucking sorry. So I missed him so fucking much. Wish I would tell that younger person she was an idiot, to hang up that phone and talk about what I was actually feeling inside, instead of trying to hide it all." Thank you for that. (Pauses)

[00:56:56] This is an awfulsome moment, uh, filled out by "Mermaid Stranded on Land." And just two, two brief, uh, awfulsome moments from her life. "When my friend found out she was pregnant, I offered to throw her down the stairs (chuckles)." That is so fucked up. And then, uh, "I didn't speak until I was three. My first sentence that anyone in the family remembers was me saying, 'You hurt my feelings.'" (Chuckles) Fuck! God! I … Never ceases to amaze me, the shit that I read.

[00:57:37] This was filled out by, uh …. It's a psych ward experience survey filled out by "Alley Cat." And, uh … "I was hospitalized 'voluntarily' by my parents when I was 19. I'd suffered with severe anxiety and depression since middle school. When I went to college, I sought out help by going to therapy and eventually seeing a psychiatrist. About six months after seeking treatment and feeling worse than I did before, I started relying heavily on marijuana and synthetic marijuana. My parents found out and freaked out. They moved me back to my hometown and the next day insisted I go into the hospital. I was, at this point, in a complete mental breakdown. I was admitted under suicidal ideation. My experience was traumatizing, not necessarily due to the hospital itself, but more of the situation. One day I was a college student, and 24 hours later, my entire life had flipped and I was in the psych ward. I was scared and did not feel like I belonged. They misdiagnosed me as bipolar II disorder, but I now learned I have major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, and panic disorder. With the exception of one psychiatric technician, who did everything to take care of us and cheer us up, everyone else seemed exhausted. I had a full-blown panic attack, and only the other patients helped me. To this day, about five years later, I still have nightmares of my experience. I think hospitals are extremely helpful for those who need to be monitored and get on a healthy schedule, but I think we need to invest more in having a more loving community for those struggling with mental illness so it doesn’t have to resort to hospitalization." A-fucking-men! Amen! Thank you for … expressing, uh, so eloquently, what so many people experience and, I think one of the most important things that you shared is, the sentence "… with the exception of one psychiatric technician, who did everything to take care of us and cheer us up, everyone else seemed exhausted." There has to be some type of change with that. You have people who are at the lowest moment in their life … And having people who are exhausted and short with them, is traumatizing.

[01:00:12] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by, um, a woman who calls herself "BD." She's straight, in her 20s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment—I would say MORE than pretty dysfunctional. Ever been the victim of sexual abused? "My counselor and I talk about what my alcoholic father had done to me around age four. I'm not sure if it was rape or molestation, but it definitely was of a sexual nature. How I feel about it is even worse. I'm flattered that my dad gave me any attention before leaving us for another family." And sadly, that is not uncommon. And, I think predators know that. They see the neediness in the eyes of a potential victim. And whether it's conscious or not on their part, um, it is, sadly, one of the things that, um, they exploit. And, I, I just want to say to any parents out there that think … you know, working 80 hours a week, when your family could be getting by with you working 40 hours a week. You know, one of the prices of that extra 80 hours a week to have the summer home or the boat or whatever cliché you wanna talk about, is you're, you're putting your child in danger for seeking love elsewhere without guidance. And that's not to say it's your fault. But, that is something that should be on your radar. She's also been physically and emotionally abused. "My mom has borderline personality disorder and was very self-centered. My grandma told me, as I was learning to walk, my mother would push me over if I was in her way. She told me to shut up so many times, I didn’t speak for the first five years of my life after that. To put us—my siblings and I—in a helpless state, she'd sit on us and tickle us until we hurt (Paul corrects himself), until it hurt, and we were crying in fear. She laughed." Any positive experiences? "I won't ever put myself in a situation to be abused. And if I was, I would confidently leave." Darkest thoughts? "I dream about child sex abuse often. Most times, I wake up in the middle of an orgasm over these children being molested. I don't mind the dreams, even though I hate that I don't mind them." Darkest secrets? "One time, I was scrolling through Tumblr and came across a page dedicated to child porn. I couldn’t look away and stayed on it for over an hour. I'm grossed out by it, yet also fascinated." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you? "Child sex abuse. I feel ill about it." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? "I want to tell the younger me that it's a lot easier to blow through 11 grand than you think." (Chuckles) What, if anything do you wish for? "I wish my husband will take me back after cheating on him over and over. I can't prove I won't again. I'm not even sure I won't. Maybe I'm just that self-centered." And, you know, my thought on that, is that that is one of the most common things for people who've experienced childhood sexual abuse, be it covert or overt. And, that, you know, ultimately it's not about the sex or the acting out. It's about a fear of intimacy and wanting to be seen or validated, but in a way where we don't give up control. And, in the end, that is a self-defeating, destructive—not only to us, but especially to other people—a destructive way to go through, through life. And, um, I really encourage you to go talk to a therapist about this and find a support group for, um, incest survivors or, uh, sex addiction or sex and love addiction. There's all kinds of good support groups. Have you shared, but, you know, shaming yourself, is not going to make you, um, heal. It's re-establishing human connection with people that are trustworthy and feeling validated in a non-sexual environment first. Have you shared these things with others? "Yes. I have corrupt friends and a family who is always on my side. They support me with whatever happens. It's kind of weird, really." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I feel like a disgusting person." You are not a disgusting person; you are a wounded person who … is worthy of love and affection and intimacy, but it's gonna take some work on your part to get there. It's just not gonna magically appear in the form of another person. And that's open of the illusions that so many people within intimacy disorders, never … discover the truth about. Is they think their salvation lies in another person's, um, you know … a single person saving them, and I've, I've never seen that. I've never seen a single person be able to heal someone's deep trauma. It, in my experience, takes a network of people, especially people who've experienced similar things. And therapy, obviously as well, because having a professional person guide us through that is huge. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Just because you have inappropriate thoughts of children that you can't control, does not mean you have ANY desire to act anything out in person." Very true. Very true. Shame is one of the things that continues the cycle of addiction. And, um, there's a great book by John Bradshaw called "Healing the Shame that Binds." And I encourage anybody who is struggling with any kind of addiction to, to read it, because shame is the gasoline—shame an fear, in my experience, are the things that addictions run on.

[01:07:17] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by, uh, "L and Z," and he writes: "Before the fourth date that L and I had, she texted me that she had some every important things to tell me that would make me not want to be with her. I took this at first (Paul corrects himself), I took this well at first. But then, because of my anxiety, I started thinking of every possible scenario that it could possibly be. My brain flooded, from everything from first-degree murder to a sex charge to cheating to STDs. I spent the whole day exhausting myself over what the possibility could be. When the time for the date came, I was already mentally exhausted. So we got to our table, ordered some appetizers—" What appetizer do you order for impending doom? Eggrolls? Pot stickers? (Chuckles) "I figured it was time to rip off the proverbial Band-Aid. I asked her what could be so bad that she thinks I would dump her over. That's when she told about her history of body image issues, depression, and anxiety. At that moment, I felt like I released the biggest sigh ever. She was struggling with the same issues I had. We spent a long time talking to each other about our issues and really enjoying each other's company. It was even more emphasized by the fact that our waitress came over and said it was refreshing to see a young couple engaging in conversation and not constantly checking their phones. Needless to say, I've fallen madly, head-over-heels with this woman, and I do feel that was in part due to us being able to openly talk about the struggles we have endured." That is so beautiful. That is so beautiful. And I hope you got the pot stickers.

[01:09:11] This is a psych ward experience filled out by, uh, a woman who calls herself "Who Knew Hospital Cafeterias Aren't Vegan-Friendly (chuckles)." (Pauses) She was, uh, admitted herself, to the hospital. "My admission was to a voluntary inpatient mood-disorder wing in my local hospital. I wasn't "suicidal," or at least I didn’t have intent. What I had been was functionally, but severely depressed. But I was running, meditating, going to work, and socializing, so I couldn’t be depressed, right? I had also been wishing for a revision of history where I hadn't survived several brushes with cardiac death. Ironically, this is also the reason I can never really be suicidal: I fought too damn hard to be alive to consider killing myself now. This was the third time in as many months that my car and I made it to the parking lot of the behavioral health hospital. The previous time, I told my partner in was in the midst of activated trauma and that I was considering admitting myself. He gave me sound advice. Called my previous therapist—not my current one, because she really wasn't working for me—which I did from the parking lot. She was amazing, and she helped walk me through reaching out to my general practice physician to increase the dose of my anti-depressants (yeah, no psychiatrist; bad idea, folks), and asked me to send her a list of therapists covered under my insurance. I did both, and by the following day, I had both changes underway and felt much calmer. The third trip to the parking lot, I arrived knowing I needed to be there. I had my first EMDR session that week and had finally begun both feeling and labeling what happened to me in my childhood as abuse. Physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. The month leading up to my hospitalization, I'd been very, very emotional. My trauma was easily activated, and my go-to methods of self-soothing were working, cleaning, and engaging in my studio art practice, but they weren’t working. So when I got activated this time, I knew it was time to really get help. When I had called my former therapist previous to this, her advice had been if you feel you need to go there (Paul corrects himself), if you feel you need to be there, go in. In-patient can be really helpful and sometimes it can do more harm. I went in—" And, and sadly, that's the truth, but—"I went in, knowing the stories that folks have shared on your podcast. Maria Bamford's 'They took my shoelaces,' was on a loop in my head, because so was the line, 'Yeah, I just surrendered,' although I can't remember now which guest of yours that line belongs to." I can't remember either, who that belongs to. It might have been Jim O'Brien? I can't remember. Describe your experience. "Well to use their words, I surrendered. And I'm really glad I did. I spent four hours in the ER before I was admitted, and I cried like a baby the whole time. And it felt amazing. I didn’t expect that. It's very hard for me to be in my body and to feel my emotions. I also didn’t expect to be treated with compassion, but I was. I honestly didn’t even expect to be asked to talk, let alone be heard. I'm exceptionally good at subverting efforts to have me be the one to talk, but I did talk and I was listened to. I knew this was a behavioral health hospital, but I still didn’t expect that. I could go on and on about the experience, but I'll abbreviate and just say I genuinely recommend this hospital." And here's the thing that I've noticed from reading hundreds of these surveys, is that there seem to be two different types of hospitals. There seem to be the county hospitals, where they are kind of a last-ditch place to keep someone safe, and it tends to be kind of like, for lack of a better word, a holding pen to keep people out of danger. But, there is a lot of burnout on part of the staff and not a lot of thought, um, or funding to go into helping patients, to have a game plan for when they leave, and to give them attention and compassion while they're in there. "The unit I was admitted to is a voluntary locked unit for mood disorders with only 10 beds. They laid the rules out for me before they asked me whether I chose to be admitted, including the fact that, if you act out violently on the floor and damage a person or property, you're liable for that damage. They also explained that the real benefit that most people find is in group, which meets three times a day. And while no one will force you, it's strongly advised that you go. I was admitted, and I went. I also didn’t hold anything back. If it came through my head, it came out. And I was asked, hopefully somewhat more organized." (Paul corrects himself) Oh—"… when I was asked, hopefully somewhat more organized. I learned I knew the steps I needed to take better than I thought, and that it felt good to be trusted to take them. I was able to go home after two days with an appointment with a psychiatrist to monitor my meds and an initial consult for a dialectical behavioral out-patient program. Now, we come to the part, post-hospitalization, where, as you say, Paul, the universe gave me a big hug. Tonight, I was practicing self-care, while my partner is travelling, by putting around in the kitchen and by re-listening to previous episodes of the podcast. I tell everyone I know about. The episode number 337, raised in repression and borderline personality disorder with Ann from Berlin—" Love Ann. "I first listened to it the week you released it, and I told my therapist about the episode, because although my cultural and social experience is much different than Ann's, I related so deeply to her experience of not being able to decipher and trust her own intuition. Of repression and neglect. And of the related maladaption of being so attuned to other's moods, needs, and emotions that you don't know how to tune into your own. Paul, as I was listening to you read the surveys, at the end, I was shocked to hear one that sounded intimately familiar to me: my own. I must have filled it out some months earlier, because the upcoming exhibition I talked about in the survey, Oblivion, had opened three month earlier in March 2017. I'd completely forgotten about submitting it, although that an important beginning of my talking openly to my therapists and my partner about what I now know was childhood sexual abuse. I was so touched to hear you read what I wrote, and to read it closely like a friend would. It also gave me the same kind of validated thrill that I got when my therapist said the same thing, that you felt angry at my parents after reading my survey and my experience. That felt really good. So, thank you, Paul. I am doing just what you advised when you addressed my survey. I'm talking to my therapist about those experiences and doing the work of recovery. I'm at that stage in therapy now, where I'm working on getting angry on my own behalf. And hearing other people are angry for me is healing beyond words." Wow. You made my day. You made my day. Thank you for that. And shout out to Ann from Berlin. She has been, uh, a supporter of, uh, this show, both, uh … in every way you can, you can imagine, uh, for, for years. And, just a … beautiful soul.

[01:17:42] I have … one more psych ward experience survey and an awfulsome moment left. And, this is the psych ward experience survey filled out by, um, "Bats Can Fly." And she writes, "I was hospitalized in the spring of 2017, after trying to kill myself with a plastic bag. I was living on my own for the first time, but it was going horribly. I wasn't happy living with my parents, because my mom is abusive towards my dad, both verbally and sometimes physically. And she has been abusive towards my sister and I verbally. I have severe social anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, and I am pretty sure I have complex PSTD from years of being bullied at school. I'm unable to work in customer service, due to panic attacks, and instead—" I can't imagine a worse job for someone with PTSD than (chuckles) customer service. Oh my god! "—and I instead do freelance art. I'm also on disability, which I feel guilty about, because I don’t feel like I deserve to be on it. I was put on a subsidized housing program and found an apartment that I thought would be good. When I got there, I immediately started having problems with the lack of sound insulation and the neighbors angry teenage son. When I first got there, he was getting into his car, and his mom was barbecuing chicken on the veranda, and she said to me, 'That's my son. He's an asshole.'" (Chuckles) It is so fucking easy to picture that! (Chuckles) "Which seemed like a red-flag that this family had issues. Shortly after moving in, I became acquainted with the boy's problems. He threw a temper tantrum once a week, banged down my door, scowled and swore at me. Between that, I'd hear him saying horrible things through the walls, like, 'Ugly fucking slut.' And it upset, even if it wasn't directed towards me. I became constantly tense and felt like crying all the time. I resorted to earing headphones and having white noise on in the background at all times to drown him out. He would do regular teenage things, like have the occasional rowdy get-together with his friends, but I would have panic attacks and experience auditory hallucinations, like rain outside turning into him outside my windows saying 'F you' over and over. I felt like I was in high school again. I've done online research and determined I that was with hypervigilance—always on alert for some type of attack—and emotional flashbacks. I also think the boy was an asshole, and I don't think it helped the situation. It was a horribly negative place to be. I wasn't happy at this new apartment and didn’t want to move back in with my parents, so I tried to kill myself. I put a bag over my head and cut myself. I'm ashamed of myself for being hurt by a person younger than me, but I am pretty sensitive. I haven't found a therapist yet, who helps patients with trauma. So stuff that is said to me now won't hurt any less than it did when I was 14." Describe your experience. "Being hospitalized didn’t help resolve my problems. The ward was mixed, both male and female and had a broad spectrum of patients, from schizophrenia and eating disorder to drug addicts. I was bullied by one of the male patients there, who called me a pig and made oinking noises at me. I was afraid to leave my room most of the time because I didn't wanna deal with that. As a result, I never got counseling there, because you had to go see the counselor yourself; they would not come to you if you didn't want to leave the room. They also had group therapy, which I only attended once, before the boy there bullied me. There was also a guy who'd been in there for weeks, pacing up and down the halls and he would call me a bitch and say he hated me every time he saw me. It wasn't entirely awful. I did get along with other patients there and they took us out for walks every morning, if the weather was nice. The nurses there were all really nice, and I didn’t have any problems with them. I didn’t enjoy sharing my room with the roommate I had. She was a bit older than me and did a lot of things that were, to me, insufferable. Putting all her stuff on my desk, insulting my sister's name, sitting on her desk facing me for long periods of time. But I was too socially anxious to speak up and just blocked her out as much as I could by reading The Girl on the Train from the small book shelf in the TV room. There was a guy there with a mental disability who was extremely sweet and had an infectious laugh. His thick glasses made his eye look huge, so we all together was like a kid there, and you couldn’t help loving him. He was really good at needle point and made beautiful detailed art on cloth. There were older adults there up to the 50s, who almost felt like parent figures to me while I was there. I just felt really safe around them. The older man there had tried to kill himself, but had been there for a while and was doing better while I got there. He said a lot of really supportive things to me about my art, and empathized with me about school bullying, which he dealt with himself as a child. The older woman there had severe depression and OCD and tried to kill herself by stabbing herself in the chest. She had cut her wrists. As horrible as her situation was, I felt comforted to see that there was an older person there with the same problem I had. There were two senior women there. One who I believe had schizophrenia and played the say exact tune on the piano, like the ending of a song, several times every day. She was very religious and also very friendly. The other older lady there bone thin and was inconsolable over the loss of her husband. Three major things that happened while I was there. One: when I first arrived, I was placed in the triage of the hospital, where they do a quick assessment to determine whether you need to or want to go to the psych ward. The rooms had port-hole windows on the doors. They only had awful movies to choose from, that played on the tiny wall TV above the nurse's station. I stayed there for one night before going in-patient. My stomach felt uneasy, and they gave me a pill to help me sleep. I woke up once in the middle of the night to a door flying open in the hallway and the sound of a girl hyperventilating and screaming, 'Don't touch me! No." And the sound of more scuffling before she went silent. Two: A boy or young man there who was in his early 20s was in the triage with me, and I talked to him for a bit. We ended up in the same psych ward, and he started flirting with me. Saying I looked beautiful and offering me books he had. He would ask to come into my room a lot, and I'd let him in and we'd talk. But I wasn't interested and was regretting ever having spoken to him. I didn’t know how to tell him no after he asked me about dating him, so I told him I was asexual and he told me I was just confused. I've known for a long time I am asexual, having never had an interest in sex or any idea what sexual attraction feels like. I wasn't confused, but I regretted telling, because now I was sure he thought I was just trying to deter him or something. He had a 'I can make you straight' kind of mindset and tried to kiss me. I gently told him no, and guided him out the door, which I am very proud of because he didn’t try it again. Three: My family came to visit me a couple of times, and I was allowed to see them for four hours per visit. At one point, it was just my sister who came to see me, and she is one of my best friends. We're extremely close and I was so happy to see her. We went to the city park and walked around for a while. It was beautiful and sunny. There was bench facing the water, and we sat there with some ducks sleeping on the grass nearby and some people playing chess. We sat there in silence for a while, listening to the wind and the trees and on the water. We had lunch at a restaurant, then walked the opposite way through the park into a cemetery, where was sat on the thick grass facing the water. The cemetery was beautiful and peaceful, and we agreed that there is nothing scary about them. My sister visiting me and taking me pout was the most refreshing and therapeutic thing that happened to me for the whole time I was there. The lack of freedom in the psych ward was the worst thing, and I quickly started to hate being there. I lied to the psychiatrist that I was feeling much better, even though I was definitely sucidically depressed, and 10 days later, after I was admitted, I was finally discharged. Being hospitalized wasn't helpful, as I found being there very stressful. But I am much more appreciative of not being compassionately incarcerated." Thank you so much for that. Boy, you just painted some incredible pictures of, of your stay there. And that's one of the things that I love about these surveys, is they're like little movies, um, for me.

[01:27:02] And, uh, finally this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Paul Gilmartin." And he writes, "First off, I just use your name to ensure you'd read this, you goddamn narcissist." (Chuckles) I've had people use my name in surveys before that I didn't read, so that's not why I'm reading it. But it is a nice perk. "A few weeks ago, my ex and I broke up. It was really great as far as break-ups go. We had our talk, which was open and honest, but still compassionate. We then walked through a park for a couple of hours, asking one another the personal questions we'd never had the courage to ask in our two years together. It ended up being the most intimate conversation of our relationship, and we were both so pleased with our awesome break-up skills, that we even had lunch together. Skip to two weeks later. We haven’t been in contact at all. My anxiety, depression, and self-hate start convincing me that she was lying all along about her reasons for breaking up. My mind started saying that she was just sick of me and found someone better and just didn’t have the heart to tell me. Around this time, I remembered that I know her Twitter handle. She doesn't even know I have an account, let alone know that I know hers. But I needed to find the truth. I found a single tweet referencing me. In it, she expressed how overwhelming her life was at the moment, and that she needed someone to talk to. That this person to confide in had once been her boyfriend, and it was now hitting that she'd lost not only a great partner, but a close friend. I'd been searching for something to confirm an imaginary betrayal, and found this instead. And now, I'm just sitting here, feeling like a total Frosted Pop Tart." (Chuckles) You are an Unfrosted Pop Tart; you just think you're a Frosted Pop Tart. I had a delicious, DELICIOUS—actually, I've been having, uh, Unfrosted Pop Tarts every night. And shout out to the listeners that, uh, send me Unfrosted Blueberry Pop Tarts, cuz we can't get them here on the West Coast. And, it's hard to even get unfrosted strawberry, which, uh, is just insulting. That's just insulting. But, um, last night, I, I (chuckles) went into the kitchen. It was like three in the morning and it was completely dark. And I was like, "Yeah, I can toast these up in the dark. I know what I'm doing. Cut to my beautiful, Frosted Pop Tart sliding off the plate, landing on the floor, and me picking it up and not even hesitating to eat it. That's how good a perfectly—cuz it has to be toasted just right. And it has to be JUST starting to burn. And, you also have to have a short glass with a wide mouth filled with milk that you dunk the Pop Tart into, while it's burning hot. And it's, I don't know if heaven exists, but I know that's what would greet you as you walk through the gate. I'm assuming, if heaven exists, it has a gate, because I do believe in clichés. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thank you, everyone that helps keep this show going. And, and … um, yeah. I'm just so grateful. And, um, if you're feeling alone, um, that's a lie that your mind is telling you, because … we're not alone. We are all connected. And … that's the most important thing to remember, you know? Like James said in the interview, this is about love. And it's so hard in this fucked up world, where there … are places that, where it feels like there's no love at all, to, um, to feel it. But, sometimes I think to myself, "Well, maybe I should be the person to generate some love in this situation. And, um … I say that because I wanna look good. And that's what I wanna end the podcast with, is me putting myself up on a pedestal and grandstanding. Because my name is Paul Gilmartin, and I am a goddamn narcissist. And thanks for listening.

Outro