This Q&A is part of Sarah Jaffe’s series Interviews for Resistance, which we feature on BillMoyers.com. In it, Jaffe speaks with organizers, troublemakers and thinkers who are doing the hard work of fighting back against America’s corporate and political powers.

In this interview, Sarah Jaffe speaks with author and activist Naomi Klein about the importance of attacking the underlying problems that gave rise to Donald Trump. Her new book, No Is Not Enough: Resisting Trump’s Shock Politics and Winning the World We Need, officially released today, is already on the top of Amazon’s political bestseller list (and ahead of Newt Gingrich’s latest book).

Sarah Jaffe: You have a new book that, once again, has managed to both scare the shit out of me and also leave me with hope. This book is a synthesis of all of your prior work filtered through the lens of Trump. It is kind of scary how well Trump consolidates all your earlier work.

Naomi Klein: [Laughs] I didn’t set out to do that. I was having a lot of people ask me to update The Shock Doctrine and add a chapter about Trump. I was like, “Well, I am not going to do that, but maybe there is a way that I can write something to prepare people for what happens if there is a major crisis.” Because everyone was talking about “shock this” and “shock that” and how they are using shock and Kellyanne Conway as a shock to the system and all of that.

These shocks are just the shocks that Trump is generating himself, whether by design or by incompetence and corruption, but what really scares me is: What happens when there is a major external shock to exploit? Look at who he has surrounded himself with — from Mike Pence, who played a central role in the looting of New Orleans, to vulture bankers like Steven Mnuchin to Betsy DeVos and her dreams of privatizing the school system. I wanted to do that, but then once I started writing about Trump I was like, “Well, it does have some relevant stuff from No Logo, too.” He is first and foremost a brand who has spawned brands. He breeds brands, in his family.

I don’t think you can understand Trump’s relationship to his voters and how he gets away with what he gets away with, without understanding the pact between a lifestyle brand and its consumer base and how that really transformed the global economy in the 1990s.

Then, there is climate change. I had to get that in. So it turned into being a bit of a mixtape.

A lot of the emotion is being misnamed. It is not shock. It is the horror of recognition. It is actually really bad dystopian fiction because it is so predictable. — Naomi Klein

SJ: It is interesting because that shows us how shocking Trump isn’t. In the book, you point out that the term “horror” might actually be more appropriate to apply to Trump because he is not that shocking.

NK: I think by naming him “shocking” there is a way in which people absolve themselves. Shocking is like a bolt from the blue. It is something external that ruptures your world. That is why I think the most helpful way of understanding Trump is as living dystopian fiction, in the sense that what dystopian art tries to do is just follow existing trends to their logical conclusion, in exaggerated form, and then reflect that back to people and say, “Well, this is where all roads are leading. Do you want to get off this dangerous road?”

A lot of the emotion is being misnamed. It is not shock. It is the horror of recognition. It is actually really bad dystopian fiction, because it is so predictable. Like, “Of course America would elect Donald Trump as the corporate president.” I really do think we need to interrogate this idea of shock. Of course, there were many people in the United States who were not shocked by Trump’s election because they were very in touch with the racism and misogyny and xenophobia that elevated him and saw him as a fulfillment. There is this way of casting ourselves as innocents: “I am shocked! How could that happen?” It is almost like, “How could this not have happened? Everything has been put into place for this to happen.”

SJ: It is interesting to think back to the anti-globalization movement of the 1990s. It seems very far away, but when you are talking about these questions of hollow brands, the way you described Trump, and then the fact that it would be impossible for Trump to divest from his brand because his brand is his name. But, that movement and that time actually sort of gives some opportunities for ways to challenge Trump and his family.

NK: My point in writing about that movement was not to say, “We told you so,” but there is no doubt that the far right is entering into a vacuum left by neoliberal centrism and liberalism. It is worth remembering that not so long ago, there was a very large, progressive, committedly internationalist movement that was taking on the whole logic of what was called “free trade” or “globalization” or “corporate globalization.” We called it “corporate rule” for the most part, because the problem was not trade, it was the writing of rules for the global economy in the interests of a small group of powerful corporations. Forget hollow brands. The center of that fight was about the hollowing out of democracy. Yes, sure, you can still vote, but the most important decisions about your life are being outsourced to institutions over which you have no control.

The most important decisions about your life are being outsourced to institutions over which you have no control.

The fact that neoliberal centrist parties pushed those deals, signed those deals, negotiated those deals and never aligned themselves with that grass-roots progressive movement left the space open for the Donald Trumps and the Nigel Farages and the Marine Le Pens of the world to come in and say, “We know how out of control you are. We believe you should be authors of your own fate, of your own destiny.” We left these ideas unattended, let’s just say. There are lots of great groups that never stopped focusing on trade, like Public Citizen and Food and Water Watch and lots of groups in Europe. But it stopped being a mass movement in the global north after Sept. 11. It is worth interrogating why that happened.

SJ: As you mentioned, this is not just a US phenomenon, which is another way that we could talk about Trump not being shocking. Can you talk about how that movement faded from the attention of people in the US and other places and where we saw the rise of these nativist movements? It is also interesting to think about where we didn’t see those.

NK: It played out differently in different contexts. The turning point for us in North America, and also for Europeans, was Sept. 11. I remember very, very vividly because immediately we started to see leaders try to associate our movement with terrorism.

The July before the Sept. 11 attack there had been a huge demonstration in Genoa. I think [an estimated 50,000 to 200,000] people on the streets. It was really all walks of Italian life. It was against the G8 Summit, but it was really a continuation of these mobilizations that had been happening outside summits, IMF and the World Bank. This was a movement against neoliberalism, really, more than anything. Some people called themselves anticapitalist — not everybody did, there was diversity within the movement ideologically.

Immediately after Sept. 11, Silvio Berlusconi said, “These are the same forces that we were up against in Genoa.” And already the repression, the violence that demonstrators were facing was getting more intense. In Genoa, there had been a young man who had been killed by police. We started to see more live ammunition used against protestors.

In the book I quote a headline that appeared in a Canadian newspaper, a right-wing national newspaper that appeared just a few days after the Sept. 11 attacks: “Globalization Is So Yesterday.”

So part of it was smearing the movement as being quasi-terrorist because people were fighting with police and they were breaking windows and it was not a neat, purely pacifist movement. There was property destruction. It was not violence against people, but there was property destruction.

There had been very broad coalitions bringing together people across political spectrums. You have coalitions that brought together big NGOs that were focused on trade, as well as big trade unions, as well as anti-capitalist anarchist groups, No One is Illegal and indigenous groups. It was difficult navigating that diversity, but it was happening. What happened overnight after 9/11, to be perfectly honest, is that the anchors of that coalition [pulled out]. These coalitions need anchor institutions that have resources, particularly because the kind of organizing that has happened in the neoliberal age has mostly not been attached to sturdy institutions. So we needed the trade unions to stay with us, and notably large trade unions basically just decided that they couldn’t be associated with people who were being cast as quasi-terrorists. That broke apart the coalition.

People still continued to do the work, but it was the broadness of it that was where the power lay. I think there are important lessons to be learned from that — this is hard, but you can’t get spooked in the midst of crisis. I think if we had managed to stay together, if it had become more diverse, because it was always too white in North America, and not less, that space would never had been available for Donald Trump to exploit.

Pulling out of the Paris Accord was really a decision about the Trump brand — essentially a public relations decision.

SJ: In that space you saw the terrorist baiting of that movement and then these right-wing nativist movements, the Trumps and the Marine Le Pens put together that fear of terrorism with the “Also, trade is bad for you,” and really weaponized that in a way that was interesting.

NK: Latin America wasn’t spooked by 9/11. The global south wasn’t, in general. But, particularly in Latin America, what happened was that in several countries, the left took power and was able to put policies in place that started to significantly take on some of the core institutions of neoliberalism. I don’t want to overly idealize it and say they had everything figured out by any means. In This Changes Everything I am quite critical of the fact that a lot of these countries continued to be very extractive in where their incomes were coming from, which also made them extremely vulnerable. Most notably Venezuela and Bolivia, essentially petrol and gas states, were doing very important income redistribution. But then, when the prices collapses, what have you got?

SJ: Then the old-school corporate right manages to slide back into power in some of these places.

NK: Yes.

SJ: Since you completed this book, Trump has officially pulled out of the Paris Accord. He already had signaled that he was going to get rid of the Clean Power Plan. The immediate response to any sort of climate thing, as you have written about, is people are just like, “We are doomed. We are all going to die. There is nothing you can do about it.” I would love for you to contextualize Trump pulling out of the Paris Accord and then talk about how we can fight that doom, what can still be done while Trump is president.

NK: Pulling out of the Paris Accord was really a decision about the Trump brand — essentially a public relations decision. I say that because the Trump administration had already decided that they were going to destroy the Paris Accord from their perspective, because the Paris Accord is just a target of what we want to accomplish. We want to keep warming below 2 degrees Celsius, and preferably 1.5. But in terms of achieving that goal, all the Paris Accord is is a kind of quilt where every country brings its own plans.

The centerpiece of the US plan was Obama’s Clean Power Plan. Trump had already announced that they were abandoning that plan. So the debate was whether or not they were going to officially pull out of the Paris Accord or whether they were going to stay in the Paris Accord, but completely ignore it and break their commitments, defiantly. Both of those decisions have a huge moral hazard attached to them, because it means that other countries can respond by saying, “Well, we are going to do the same thing.”

Arguably, staying in the Paris Accord and treating it like it is not worth the paper it is printed on, which was what Ivanka Trump and Rex Tillerson wanted to do, would have been more damaging for other countries in terms of what that signalled they could get away with. Whereas now, when he is openly raising the middle finger and saying, “We are walking away. I can get a better deal from this deal that was negotiated over a quarter of a century by almost 200 countries,” I think it is forcing countries to step up. If they are not going to walk away, then they kind of have to do more.

What has been really inspiring is watching mayors step up.

What has been really inspiring is watching mayors step up — particularly the mayor of Pittsburgh, who has stepped forward. The ultimate repudiation, because Pittsburgh was held up in Trump’s speech, he said that he was elected by the people of Pittsburgh as opposed to the people of Paris, perhaps not knowing that Pittsburgh has a very progressive mayor at the moment who corrected the record that Pennsylvania may have voted Trump, but Pittsburgh did not. There was already a very live, very energetic campaign in Pittsburgh to try to get the mayor to adopt this really ambitious target of getting to 100 percent renewable energy by 2035, which is better than anything else in the country. The next day after Trump’s Paris withdrawal, the mayor adopted that target.

Now we have hundreds of cities that have committed themselves to the Paris goals. I think we are seeing more ambition from states like California and New York, because they are under pressure from the climate justice movement. It is similar to what we are seeing with health care, where, as we see how much damage they are willing to do, just the complete disregard for life on every level that this administration represents, it is starting to build momentum for state-level deep change. We are seeing some really positive signs toward single-payer health care.

What I say at the end of the book is, Michelle Obama’s famous line from the convention last summer when she said, “When they go low, we go high,” she was talking about tone and I am really not sure I agree with that. [Laughs] I am not so concerned about tone, but I do think that that ethos of as they go low, rogue, as they abandon the world and so many millions of people, that every space in which they are not in control, whether it is universities, cities, states, other countries, tribes, whatever it is, all of us as organizers, activists and people who can be powerful when we get together in groups, we all have to do more. We have to step up. We have to be more ambitious. I see people rising to that and that is so exciting.

SJ: Your book is titled No Is Not Enough. A lot of the organizers that I have talked to for this series have stressed over and over again that resistance is not enough now; we need to be pushing for something different. Then, there is this other tendency that basically is like, “We just need anyone but Trump. We just need to elect any Democrat.” Americans love the superficially shiny Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. But Jeremy Corbyn put forward a legitimately left-wing platform, and it turns out it’s really popular.

NK: Who knew? [Laughs] I mean, Jeremy Corbyn is the anti-Trudeau. He couldn’t be less slick. He has got some good social media folks working for him, but it is not about him. I think the beauty of the campaign they have run has been that the political messaging has been so varied. He is not putting himself front and center. You have whole ads where he is not even in them and people are just hearing the message directly from teachers and pediatricians, like in the amazing video that Ken Loach made.

It’s showing that maybe it is possible to reject this celebrity model for politicians, whether it is Donald Trump or Justin Trudeau or, frankly, Barack Obama. What worries me is not just what you are saying, that it is just about getting rid of Trump and electing Democrats, but this talk of “We need to get Oprah” or “We need our own brand-based…” or Mark Zuckerberg, God forbid. Or Michael Bloomberg.

What I am trying to do with this book is point out that Trump is not the crisis. He is a symptom of the crisis. If we don’t get at the underlying trends that made his rise possible, there are worse versions of Trump out there. There are more racist versions of Trump out there. There are even more violent versions of Trump out there.

Donald Trump is the culmination of a great many dangerous ideas fostered in this country, and there has to be some ownership of that.

I want the Russia connections to be investigated, but there is a way in which it is reinforcing this idea of him as a foreign agent, somehow other, as an alien intervention in the American psyche. I can tell you Donald Trump’s products may not be made in America, but Donald Trump was made in America. He is not an alien. He is the culmination of a great many dangerous ideas fostered in this country and there has to be some ownership of that.

SJ: You end No Is Not Enough by talking about the Leap Manifesto, the platform that you worked on for Canadian politics, which immediately made me think of the Right2Change platform that the Irish left put together before its last election. You talk about the Vision for Black Lives platform. Tell us about the Leap Manifesto and why these people’s platforms, rather than personalities are important right now.

NK: I think there is some utopianism in the air. The triumph of neoliberalism has expressed itself so much in this atrophying of the political imagination. Even when the ideological project of neoliberalism is sort of in tatters on the floor, the idea that there is no alternative remains.

The process of writing the Leap Manifesto was so interesting in that way. It is hard. We had 60 people in a room together representing a very wide range of movements, all real anchors of social movements of the left were there. We realized that we had not done this before, or it had been generations. We had come together to oppose free trade deals. We had come together to oppose austerity agendas. We had come together to oppose some particularly vile politician. But, we had not come together to say, “What is that we actually want?”

Just recognizing that, yes, this is an atrophied muscle. We need practice. You can feel almost like a child in this moment when you are actually doing something you are not good at. But it was really gratifying. We spent two days and out of that came this brief document. It is only 1,400 words, that has now been endorsed by hundreds of organizations, a very broad range, including the largest trade union in the country and grass-roots groups like No One Is Illegal, Coast Salish territory. Groups that don’t agree on everything, but were able to come together around a vision that was much bolder than anything that was on offer in our last federal election.

It is continuing to be used to push politicians at the federal, provincial and municipal level. We are seeing slates of Leap candidates emerge in municipal elections and there has been a lot of interest in just sharing information around the world. For us, this is not about “We are trying to colonize the world with the Leap.” But we want to trade information because this idea is in the air and there are many social movements — I think the Vision for Black Lives, the platform that emerged last summer in the midst, once again, of a federal election campaign, coming from the Movement for Black Lives, it is such a visionary document. This is new to see this from social movements. Think about the Occupy movement or even the criticism of the movement taking on free trade that we were talking about earlier. The criticism we always had was “We know what you are against, but what are you for?” We weren’t really ready to step up and answer that question, but I think that is changing.

It is important on a lot of levels, but one of them is whoever the candidates turn out to be in the next election cycle, how great would it be for there to be a vision, or multiple visions, that are articulated? In the US, I think it is going to be a process where it bubbles up from cities and states. There is some really interesting work going on in Michigan. You have been covering all kinds of examples of this, like in Jackson, Mississippi. If that coalesced around a vision where any candidate that wanted the progressive vote would have to follow this platform, as opposed to having this sort of celebrity savior relationship with a political figure.

Where can people get the book and how can they follow up with your work?

They can find out about the book at www.NoIsNotEnough.org. All my book tour dates are on there. It is available in bookstores soon. They can follow me on Twitter @NaomiAKlein and they can find out about the Leap at www.TheLeap.org, where we have got lots of examples of what we are calling the “living Leap,” ways in which people are taking this broad-strokes vision and changing it and making it their own.

Interviews for Resistance is a project of Sarah Jaffe, with assistance from Laura Feuillebois and support from the Nation Institute. It is also available as a podcast on iTunes. Not to be reprinted without permission.