The President of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in his palace, in Istanbul, August 6th. LAURENT VAN DER STOCKT FOR "LE MONDE"

Three weeks after the coup attempt which shook Turkey on the night of July 15, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan received journalists from Le Monde, on Saturday August 6 in Istanbul. It was his first interview with the Western press since the events. Strongly criticized for the magnitude of the purges following the coup, the Turkish head of state blames both his European and American partners for their lack of « empathy » and support. Before meeting Vladimir Putin on Tuesday in Saint-Petersburg, Mr. Erdogan brings up a probable breakdown with the European Union (EU) on the migrants issue as well as on human rights.

You have said that Western leaders had « sided with the authors of the coup attempt and the terrorists ». What do you blame them for?

During the coup attempt, a number of leaders of the Western world called me on the phone. It was not enough. We were not facing an ordinary terrorist attack. We have had 240 martyrs and 2,200 people have been wounded. The whole world took a stand when Charlie Hedbo was attacked. Our Prime Minister joined in the march in the streets of Paris. I wish the world leaders had reacted in the same way to what happened in Turkey and that they wouldn’t merely use a few clichés to denunciate the coup. Or else they could have come here.

The Western world is not consistent here with the values it advocates. The Western world must show solidarity with Turkey, which as adopted its democratic values. Unfortunately Western leaders have prefered to leave Turkish people to themselves. Western people should not bother about the number of people that were arrested or dismissed. A state has the right to hire and dismiss its civil servants as it wishes, and Turkey has never interfered in this type of matter with its Western partners. It is up to us to decide who we want to work with and who we want to dismiss. Governments should know their place. We are struggling against a coup attempt, against terrorists. The Western world must understand what we are dealing with.

When Mr. Putin called me to present his condolances, he didn’t criticize me on the number of people from the military or civil service who had been dismissed. Whereas all the Europeans asked me: why are so many soldiers detained, why have so many civil servants been dismissed? You need to really understand the events we have been through before passing a judgement: the Parliament and the intelligence services have been bombed. Even the Presidential Complex was targeted by fighter aircrafts; six martyrs lost their lives. Instead of showing empathy, Western leaders had the opposite reaction. This makes us sad and it is unacceptable.

Do you consider reshaping your relations with the Western world, whether it be with the European Union (EU), NATO or the United States?

It is the duty of EU member states to try and reassess their relations with Turkey. We have been at the gates of Europe for fifty-three years now. The EU is solely responsible and guilty for this situation. No state has ever been treated the way Turkey has. When I participated in my first European Summit, the EU had only 15 member states. The EU had a biased attitude by opening negotiations (for the membership of Turkey) that never led anywhere. It shows an obvious lack of sincerity.

The EU does not behave in a sincere way with Turkey. There are currently 3 million refugees in Turkey, and the only concern of EU member states is that those refugees do not reach their territories. The EU suggested that we accept the readmissions (of migrants coming from Turkey) in exchange for visa liberalization for Turkish citizens. The readmission agreement and the visa liberalization were to come into force simultaneously on June 1. It is now August and the visa liberalization is still pending. If our claims are not met, we will have to stop readmissions.

What about the United States?

The head of the terrorist organization (accused of fomenting the July 15 coup) has been living in the United States since 1999. I asked President Obama to extradite Gülen. He asked me for documents and evidence. I pointed out to him that when the United States asked for terrorists to be extradited, we never asked for anything and just did it. By virtue of our strategic partnership, the United States must extradite this person since Turkey has already extradited about ten terrorists to the United States. We sent 85 crates of documents to the United States. I now hope that Gülen will be extradited to Turkey as soon as possible. This would allow the anti-American feeling in Turkey to be dispelled.

On August 24, Mr. Kerry [the head of American diplomacy] will come to Turkey for an official visit. It is late, too late. This makes us sad. What more do Americans need? Their strategic ally is facing a coup and it takes them 45 days before sending anyone over? This is shocking. When the World Trade Center was attacked (on 9/11/2001), I immediately reacted: I condemned the attacks which I qualified as a terrorist crime. I would have wished for American officials to come up with stronger words and to come to Turkey earlier. Unfortunately, it didn’t happen this way.

Which civilization model do you have in mind for Turkey: the European or the Arab-Muslim one?

Turkey is part of the modern world and its civilization is not restrictive. Within the United Nations, we have set up the Alliance of Civilizations (UNAOC) which includes 146 member states because we refuse Samuel Huntington’s theory – the clash of civilizations. Our project is neither partial nor local.

On August 9, you will meet Vladimir Putin in Saint-Petersburg. Do you feel closer to him than to Western leaders?

Do you consider Mr. Putin as an Eastern leader? I think the Russian Federation should be considered both a European and an Asian country. The Western world tried to exclude Russia; we didn’t. We had this Russian plane incident (a Russian aircraft was destroyed by two Turkish aircrafts at the Turkish-Syrian border on November 24, 2015), but this August 9 visit had been planned long before the coup attempt. This meeting will mark a new step in the relations between our two countries.

Could the rapprochement with Russia change your position regarding Bashar Al-Assad’s regime?

Solving the Syrian conundrum requires the involvement of the most important players: Russia, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United States. We have always been in favor of a solution to the conflict through rapid common discussions. But this solution cannot be found with Bashar Al-Assad still in power. He needs to leave. When he is gone, it will become possible to find a name which everyone can agree on and if elections are organized without him participating, a transition will be possible. We have already had preparatory discussions leading to such a solution. Up to now, 600,000 people have been killed in Syria. Who is to be blame for this? Assad. We should not support the man responsible for the death of 600,000 of his fellow citizens. Yet some people do support him. If we do believe in democracy, we should not play this game. We must follow another direction. I think the Western world is trying to teach lessons on this matter. Whether it be Germany, France, or the United Kingdom, together of course with Russia who is an important player, we must all sit at the table and wonder why 600,000 people have been killed. This is very painful to me. The fact that so many people have been slaughtered in Syria should encourage us not to support Assad. Is there really no one else to run this country? Some say that if Assad leaves, Isis [Islamic State of Iraq and Sham] will come to power. This will not happen. Together we can fight against this regime as we are fighting against Isis. It is our duty to offer the Syrian people the possibility to elect the person they want. It is the only solution. We cannot declare that we don’t trust the Syrian people and let other people decide the future of this country.

Is the recapture of Aleppo by the Syrian regime a red line for Turkey?

The situation is currently evolving in Syria. The opposition forces are about to gain back territory from the Syrian regime. This process is very complicated. If Aleppo falls [into the hands of the regime], it will be a big problem for Turkey. Because many of the people fleeing Syria necessarily head to our country. Many inhabitants of Turkish border towns, such as Gaziantep and Kilis for example, have relatives in Aleppo. We never said our door would be closed. If there are new flows of refugees, we will welcome them. We don’t have the same attitude as Europeans on this matter. We know that those people are fleeing bombings, and our humanist concepts as well as our religious beliefs force us to let them in. We have already welcomed three million refugees. We will welcome one more million if need be. We have also welcomed refugees from Iraq: Yezidis, Muslims, Christians, we have welcomed everybody, indiscriminately. So far, the aid devoted to refugees amounts to about 13 billion dollars, and 20 billion dollars with NGO aids included. And we have projects for the future. Our brothers from Syria will have the possibility to become Turkish citizens – we are working on this.

Do you think that the people involved in the coup should be sentenced to the death penalty?

This decision must come from the people. Regarding the death penalty, I think that if a person was killed, only their family can decide what should happen to the murderers. If the family decides to pardon them, they can do so; but it is impossible for the state to take such a decision. Of course the judiciary can grant amnesty, but if millions of people in the country demand the death penalty, this request will be taken into consideration by the Parliament, which will decide if it needs to be reinstated, even if the penal code already prescribes very strict sentences against people involved in a coup. The death penalty is still effective in several states of the United States and in Japan. It also exists in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, China and many other countries. It has been abolished mainly in Europe. It is the Turkish people’s natural right to decide if the death penalty – which has not been enforced since 1984 (and was abolished in 2004) – should be reinstated or not. If the Parliament decides to reinstate the death penalty, we will no take into account what other people think, we will implement it.

Won’t the massive purges in the army, the police and the justice system weaken the state? All the more as Turkey is currently facing a double terrorist threat – as you have pointed out yourself|– coming both from Isis and the PKK Kurdish rebels?

Those measures are precisely aimed at eradicating threats to security. The people arrested or dismissed who were linked to the Gülen organization shouldn’t have had the positions they had in the first place. The Turkish security forces are fighting against the PKK, but some people working in the justice system were supporting the terrorists. Even the army had been infiltrated by members of the Gülen terrorist organization. We are now trying to eliminate those cancerous cells while seriously fighting against Isis and the PKK. Yet our allies supply the PYD in Syria – which is the local equivalent of the PKK – with weapons and explosives. What type of friendship is this? We don’t understand this distinction between good and bad terrorists. We are told that the PYD is fighting against Isis and that this makes them good terrorists. But Al-Nusra Front is also fighting Isis and they are considered as bad terrorists. We claim that all terrorists are bad and that we need to fight together against all terrorists.

You have been the first Turkish leader to start peace talks with the PKK. Is there a chance for the negotiations to ever resume?

I want to clarify something here: I have never started peace talks with the PKK. The Turkish Intelligence Services met Ocalan [the historic leader of the PKK, currently serving a life sentence, editor’s note]. I have never met with terrorists, neither as Prime Minister nor as President. A state cannot negotiate with terrorists. Too many martyrs have died in this conflict with the PKK. It is not a matter of revenge, but a matter of justice. The state and all its institutions will keep on working on all levels including the development of infrastructures. For many years, the territories occupied by the terrorist organization have been deprived of investments. Private and public companies didn’t want to go into these regions because of the lack of security. There were bombings and destruction. Now things are getting better. We have projects of urban transformation for the cities in the area. Buildings will be rebuilt and the people who have had to flee combat zones will be able to come back and live in modern houses, with modern schools and modern places of worship.

The opposition sided with you against the members of the coup. Their representatives were invited to the big meeting on Sunday. But the HDP pro-Kurdish party seems to be excluded from this consensus, although it has also condemned the coup. Why is that?

This party supports the terrorists and is supported by a terrorist organization – the PKK. Furthermore, this party is not the party of the Kurdish people as it claims to be. The political force which garners the largest number of citizens of Kurdish origin is the party I founded – the AKP. A misunderstanding needs to be dispelled here. It is true that the HDP is supported by some Kurdish citizens, but they are often threatened and forced to do so by terrorists. When the terrorist organization is no more, this party will disappear too. It was weakened between the June 2015 elections and the November elections because people realized where the truth lay. For example town councils run by the HDP in the South-East had trenches dug. The trenches were not designed for water or gas pipelines; they were intended to prevent security forces from being effective. As President of the Republic of Turkey, I could not invite the head of such a party supported by a terrorist organization to a meeting celebrating democracy and martyrs. The HDP leaders are free to express themselves in the Parliament, but we don’t want to share the same podium with them. If we had invited them, the people would not have understood and they might have been lynched. We do not want to antagonize our people; we want to unify our nation on the path to a better future.

Traduit par Manuel Benguigui