Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-27 18:00:50 #2 Many thanks to these friends who contributed:



Timothy Young - Shindigs (Producer/User Researcher)

Emily Gera - (Senior Reporter at Polygon)

James Hu - Lemon (Finance and Business Analyst)

Team Liquid User, jubil https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

hellokitty[hk] Profile Joined June 2009 United States 1309 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 18:16:37 #3 5/5 would fangirl again. People are imbeciles, lucky thing god made cats.

ninazerg Profile Blog Joined October 2009 United States 7264 Posts #4 I think someone who never saw a game like DotA2 on TV, they'd be like "What the fuck is this shit?", listen for a bit, ridicule everyone involved, i.e., "I BET THESE NERDS DON'T HAVE GFS XAXAXAXAXA )))))" and then switch to Real Housewives of Mobile, Alabama to see Jodi's crazy antics. Oh, Jodi, you so crazy, girl. "If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

Dangermousecatdog Profile Joined December 2010 United Kingdom 6251 Posts #5 Imperative. I don't think it means what you think it means. Thesaurus much?

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #6 On August 24 2014 03:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

Imperative. I don't think it means what you think it means. Thesaurus much?



I welcome grammar and word-choice feedback. I welcome grammar and word-choice feedback. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Zealously Profile Blog Joined October 2011 East Gorteau 21345 Posts #7 On August 24 2014 03:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

Imperative. I don't think it means what you think it means. Thesaurus much?



I think you should provide constructive criticism instead of making off-hand remarks without explanation. Shitposting much? I think you should provide constructive criticism instead of making off-hand remarks without explanation. Shitposting much? Administrator Break the chains

CosmicSpiral Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 10853 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 19:53:15 #8 On August 24 2014 03:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

Imperative. I don't think it means what you think it means. Thesaurus much?



Imperative - expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation.



The word is fine.



Torte, I take issue with two things. Your use of rhetoric to dismiss concerns seems like sleight-of-hand to ignore arguments you can't actually answer. You often hand-wave them away with extremely vague, unconvincing rebuttals. The second paragraph is especially rife with this. You make no serious attempt to detail what "legitimizing eSports" actually means, or whether there is one interpretation that should be embraced above others. This is a fairly important point as your entire article is predicated on a definite idea of what constitutes legitimate eSports.



Otherwise I think it's well-written and thought-provoking. Imperative - expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation.The word is fine.Torte, I take issue with two things. Your use of rhetoric to dismiss concerns seems like sleight-of-hand to ignore arguments you can't actually answer. You often hand-wave them away with extremely vague, unconvincing rebuttals. The second paragraph is especially rife with this. You make no serious attempt to detail what "legitimizing eSports" actually means, or whether there is one interpretation that should be embraced above others. This is a fairly important point as your entire article is predicated on a definite idea of what constitutes legitimate eSports.Otherwise I think it's well-written and thought-provoking. Writer Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.

BronzeKnee Profile Joined March 2011 United States 5110 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 19:53:23 #9 On August 24 2014 04:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 24 2014 03:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

Imperative. I don't think it means what you think it means. Thesaurus much?



Imperative - expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation.



The word is fine. Imperative - expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation.The word is fine.



Well, it is being used very oddly, could have multiple meanings and is confusing in this context. Is it an urgent feeling to legitimize E-Sports? Is it an instant feeling? Or is it an obligatory feeling? Those words are all synonyms of imperative, as it has a broad meaning.



Even your definition makes it confusing, "the exhortative feeling to legitimize E-Sports." What?



I assume what he means is that some people believe it is imperative to legitimize E-Sports and he wants to talk about that. When I construct the sentence that way, the meaning is clear (ie very important to legitimize E-Sports). However, that same meaning in his sentence would talk about "The very important feeling to legitimize E-Sports." What is important? The feeling or legitimizing E-Sports? With it's title, this article could very well have been about some very important feeling he had after a some life event last night that made him to go on a crusade to legitimize E-Sports.



Therefore, it shouldn't have been used. But it really isn't a big deal. Well, it is being used very oddly, could have multiple meanings and is confusing in this context. Is it an urgent feeling to legitimize E-Sports? Is it an instant feeling? Or is it an obligatory feeling? Those words are all synonyms of imperative, as it has a broad meaning.Even your definition makes it confusing, "the exhortative feeling to legitimize E-Sports." What?I assume what he means is that some people believe it is imperative to legitimize E-Sports and he wants to talk about that. When I construct the sentence that way, the meaning is clear (ie very important to legitimize E-Sports). However, that same meaning in his sentence would talk about "The very important feeling to legitimize E-Sports." What is important? The feeling or legitimizing E-Sports? With it's title, this article could very well have been about some very important feeling he had after a some life event last night that made him to go on a crusade to legitimize E-Sports.Therefore, it shouldn't have been used. But it really isn't a big deal.

CosmicSpiral Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 10853 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 22:55:09 #10 On August 24 2014 04:37 BronzeKnee wrote:

Well, it is being used very oddly, could have multiple meanings and is confusing in this context. Is it an urgent feeling to legitimize E-Sports? Is it an instant feeling? Or is it an obligatory feeling? Those words are all synonyms of imperative, as it has a broad meaning.



If he is using imperative in either of its two primary definitions ("absolutely necessary vs "expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation", that's perfectly fine. A word can have multiple meanings within a sentence as long as they adequately describe the subject and are complementary. It would only be a problem if we couldn't tell if imperative was an adjective or a noun: those definitions are irreconcilable.



If he is using imperative in either of its two primary definitions ("absolutely necessary vs "expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation", that's perfectly fine. A word can have multiple meanings within a sentence as long as they adequately describe the subject and are complementary. It would only be a problem if we couldn't tell if imperative was an adjective or a noun: those definitions are irreconcilable. On August 24 2014 04:37 BronzeKnee wrote:

Even your definition makes it confusing, "the exhortative feeling to legitimize E-Sports." What?



That's because you're trying to substitute part of a definition as a synonym.



That's because you're trying to substitute part of a definition as a synonym. On August 24 2014 04:37 BronzeKnee wrote:

I assume what he means is that some people believe it is imperative to legitimize E-Sports and he wants to talk about that. When I construct the sentence that way, the meaning is clear (ie very important to legitimize E-Sports).



"Imperative" is an adjective describing the gerund "feeling". Imperative would have to be used as a noun to meet your interpretation.



"Imperative" is an adjective describing the gerund "feeling". Imperative would have to be used as a noun to meet your interpretation. On August 24 2014 04:37 BronzeKnee wrote:

However, that same meaning in his sentence would talk about "The very important feeling to legitimize E-Sports." What is important? The feeling or legitimizing E-Sports? With its title, this article could very well have been about some very important feeling he had after a some life event last night that made him to go on a crusade to legitimize E-Sports.



Therefore, it shouldn't have been used. But it really isn't a big deal.



The burden of clarification falls on the article, not the title. Titles are not bound to be complete summaries of their content except in certain, extremely dry fields. For what it's worth, he's being slightly sarcastic with the first interpretation. I don't see any blatant subject confusion in the title. If anything, the problem is the word "feeling" and its lack of intentionality. "The feeling towards legitimizing esports" makes no sense. The burden of clarification falls on the article, not the title. Titles are not bound to be complete summaries of their content except in certain, extremely dry fields. For what it's worth, he's being slightly sarcastic with the first interpretation. I don't see any blatant subject confusion in the title. If anything, the problem is the word "feeling" and its lack of intentionality. "The feeling towards legitimizing esports" makes no sense. Writer Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #11 To note that I can't change the title, so in future iterations, I will try to be more direct in how I convey my title and ultimately my piece! https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

hoby2000 Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 895 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 22:40:15 #12 People need to realize that eSports is a thing in itself and needs no "legitimization." That argument is suggesting there's a self-aware 3rd party judge somewhere that makes the distinction between what is "legit" and what is not. The fact is that this being doesn't exist (at least not in a self-aware form) and eSports can fascinate itself with new ideas because it's young. The internet itself is still a new technology that society on a whole is only beginning to understand it's uses in modern day life - eSports is a child of the internet therefore making it even younger.



I don't mind using ESPN as a model though, but we should embrace the online platform we have - It's different and suits the culture of the games themselves.. We don't have a limited amount of air time, and in a sense, eSports can do something that "legitimate sports" competitions cannot - which is bring the feel of event to you through multiple streams, allowing you to browse more content at once. Or even allow you to watch a match IN GAME so you can see what you want to see when you want to see it from the comfort of your home.



I have other thoughts on the subject but I will leave it at that. A lesson without pain is meaningless for nothing can be gained without giving something in return.

tshi Profile Joined September 2012 United States 2494 Posts #13 I dont think anything will be legitimate as long as /r/starcraft is a thing =/ scrub - inexperienced player with relatively little skill and excessive arrogance

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #14 On August 24 2014 07:59 tshi wrote:

I dont think anything will be legitimate as long as /r/starcraft is a thing =/



Certainly not my opinion or articles there unfortunately, but I digress. Vocal minorities always seem more influential than they really are. Don't disparage all of a community because of some occurences, chin up!



Certainly not my opinion or articles there unfortunately, but I digress. Vocal minorities always seem more influential than they really are. Don't disparage all of a community because of some occurences, chin up! On August 24 2014 07:39 hoby2000 wrote:

People need to realize that eSports is a thing in itself and needs no "legitimization." That argument is suggesting there's a self-aware 3rd party judge somewhere that makes the distinction between what is "legit" and what is not. The fact is that this being doesn't exist (at least not in a self-aware form) and eSports can fascinate itself with new ideas because it's young. The internet itself is still a new technology that society on a whole is only beginning to understand it's uses in modern day life - eSports is a child of the internet therefore making it even younger.



I don't mind using ESPN as a model though, but we should embrace the online platform we have - It's different and suits the culture of the games themselves.. We don't have a limited amount of air time, and in a sense, eSports can do something that "legitimate sports" competitions cannot - which is bring the feel of event to you through multiple streams, allowing you to browse more content at once. Or even allow you to watch a match IN GAME so you can see what you want to see when you want to see it from the comfort of your home.



I have other thoughts on the subject but I will leave it at that.



I think 'legitimization' is a shortcut word to an ambiguous final "we made it" that's joked around a lot. I do think there is a third-party judge but its a gradual move towards acquiring larger interest from businesses. That's my "third-party judge" and obviously people value this checkmark of authenticity differently.



I think online live streaming is embraced pretty heavily, especially as new generations are born into its accessibility. It's not like we can both accept television as its impactful status while continually utilizing livestreaming. I think you make a fair point about the qualities of livestreaming but also dismiss the context and hypotheticals of television such as watching in public places, at your home with your family, etc. This can all be substitued with PCs and a good internet connection but that's the case the majority of the time.



Please tell us more of your thoughts. I think 'legitimization' is a shortcut word to an ambiguous final "we made it" that's joked around a lot. I do think there is a third-party judge but its a gradual move towards acquiring larger interest from businesses. That's my "third-party judge" and obviously people value this checkmark of authenticity differently.I think online live streaming is embraced pretty heavily, especially as new generations are born into its accessibility. It's not like we can both accept television as its impactful status while continually utilizing livestreaming. I think you make a fair point about the qualities of livestreaming but also dismiss the context and hypotheticals of television such as watching in public places, at your home with your family, etc. This can all be substitued with PCs and a good internet connection but that's the case the majority of the time.Please tell us more of your thoughts. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Danglars Profile Blog Joined August 2010 United States 11622 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 23:17:44 #15 On August 24 2014 04:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:

Torte, I take issue with two things. Your use of rhetoric to dismiss concerns seems like sleight-of-hand to ignore arguments you can't actually answer. You often hand-wave them away with extremely vague, unconvincing rebuttals. The second paragraph is especially rife with this. You make no serious attempt to detail what "legitimizing eSports" actually means, or whether there is one interpretation that should be embraced above others. This is a fairly important point as your entire article is predicated on a definite idea of what constitutes legitimate eSports.



Otherwise I think it's well-written and thought-provoking. It is rhetorical sleight of hand. What is this "legitimacy" to you, why should I believe your take on it, how would I even know if it was gained? There's a lot of points wafting in that second paragraph that don't come together into a persuasive whole.



Publicity

Broadcast medium

New viewer entry

Cultural impact of TV

Advertiser-Viewer Monetization



It is rhetorical sleight of hand. What is this "legitimacy" to you, why should I believe your take on it, how would I even know if it was gained? There's a lot of points wafting in that second paragraph that don't come together into a persuasive whole.PublicityBroadcast mediumNew viewer entryCultural impact of TVAdvertiser-Viewer Monetization However the public attitude as to whether there is an imperative need to focus on legitimizing eSports is opinionated without taking into consideration of companies already trying to legitimize it and have been for many years. Did this fly right over everybody else's head, too? We're too opinionated to recognize attempts to legitimize (as before, what does this mean)?



The only takeaway I got was to not prematurely dismiss the TV medium for recruiting new viewers. I basically already agreed with that statement going in. The rest of the article is too muddled to grasp the main current of thought (if there is a main current of thought). It's something about TV as validation, TV as viewer recruitment, and TV as a financial boon. I detect in the background [rhetorical] fog an unspoken vein: eSports legitimacy is shredding basement LAN stigma, being considered just another sports, and its players as athletes. Did this fly right over everybody else's head, too? We're too opinionated to recognize attempts to legitimize (as before, what does this mean)?The only takeaway I got was to not prematurely dismiss the TV medium for recruiting new viewers. I basically already agreed with that statement going in. The rest of the article is too muddled to grasp the main current of thought (if there is a main current of thought). It's something about TV as validation, TV as viewer recruitment, and TV as a financial boon. Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 23:35:28 #16 On August 24 2014 04:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 24 2014 03:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:

Imperative. I don't think it means what you think it means. Thesaurus much?



Imperative - expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation.



The word is fine.



Torte, I take issue with two things. Your use of rhetoric to dismiss concerns seems like sleight-of-hand to ignore arguments you can't actually answer. You often hand-wave them away with extremely vague, unconvincing rebuttals. The second paragraph is especially rife with this. You make no serious attempt to detail what "legitimizing eSports" actually means, or whether there is one interpretation that should be embraced above others. This is a fairly important point as your entire article is predicated on a definite idea of what constitutes legitimate eSports.



Otherwise I think it's well-written and thought-provoking. Imperative - expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation.The word is fine.Torte, I take issue with two things. Your use of rhetoric to dismiss concerns seems like sleight-of-hand to ignore arguments you can't actually answer. You often hand-wave them away with extremely vague, unconvincing rebuttals. The second paragraph is especially rife with this. You make no serious attempt to detail what "legitimizing eSports" actually means, or whether there is one interpretation that should be embraced above others. This is a fairly important point as your entire article is predicated on a definite idea of what constitutes legitimate eSports.Otherwise I think it's well-written and thought-provoking.



Oh shit, I totally missed this reply! I'm very sorry and you don't know what it means to have you compliment my work.



Do you have an example of my dismissal? Initially, I wanted to keep it short so my biggest issue with all my pieces is that I don't go further. What could be dismissal may turn out to be a future topic though!



I personally think it is impossible to underling the details to what is "legitimizing eSports". That's my personal opinion, if I were to make it a thesis, it would be incomplete. To me, personally, legitimizing eSports is where it becomes equals to its main culture that it derives from: gaming and attracts similar sponsorship and businesses similar to extreme sports we see with Red Bull, Monster Gaming. I associate these events with the same as eSports events with the same amount of funding, business interest, exciting international events and content highlighting those people.



I think that may be implied by how joyious I act if advertisers moved over to online streaming, but you're right in that it lacks clear definition. Something to maybe write next?



Thanks so much! Oh shit, I totally missed this reply! I'm very sorry and you don't know what it means to have you compliment my work.Do you have an example of my dismissal? Initially, I wanted to keep it short so my biggest issue with all my pieces is that I don't go further. What could be dismissal may turn out to be a future topic though!I personally think it is impossible to underling the details to what is "legitimizing eSports". That's my personal opinion, if I were to make it a thesis, it would be incomplete. To me, personally, legitimizing eSports is where it becomes equals to its main culture that it derives from: gaming and attracts similar sponsorship and businesses similar to extreme sports we see with Red Bull, Monster Gaming. I associate these events with the same as eSports events with the same amount of funding, business interest, exciting international events and content highlighting those people.I think that may be implied by how joyious I act if advertisers moved over to online streaming, but you're right in that it lacks clear definition. Something to maybe write next?Thanks so much! https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-23 23:37:25 #17 On August 24 2014 08:16 Danglars wrote:

Show nested quote +

However the public attitude as to whether there is an imperative need to focus on legitimizing eSports is opinionated without taking into consideration of companies already trying to legitimize it and have been for many years.



The only takeaway I got was to not prematurely dismiss the TV medium for recruiting new viewers. I basically already agreed with that statement going in. The rest of the article is too muddled to grasp the main current of thought (if there is a main current of thought). It's something about TV as validation, TV as viewer recruitment, and TV as a financial boon. I detect in the background [rhetorical] fog an unspoken vein: eSports legitimacy is shredding basement LAN stigma, being considered just another sports, and its players as athletes. Did this fly right over everybody else's head, too? We're too opinionated to recognize attempts to legitimize (as before, what does this mean)?The only takeaway I got was to not prematurely dismiss the TV medium for recruiting new viewers. I basically already agreed with that statement going in. The rest of the article is too muddled to grasp the main current of thought (if there is a main current of thought)



AAH, someone nabbed a tooth!



I think, and you can ready your harpoons here, that the vocal audience that speaks about legitimizing eSports, especially in regards to television, blurs out some progress points made over the past four years just as this article barely grazes any progress made pre-2010. Granted, I may be discrediting the large lot of folks and invested fans but I think I may have overused legitimize as I am referencing examples such as ESL bumping up their attendance at major conventions as forms of converting and directly interacting mainstream gamers with the hype of competitions.



Bolded: YESYESYES. That TV, despite its coming diminished cultural impact, still plays a massive role in both acknowledgement of eSports as well as recognition that could lead to more avenues of business and interest levels on a societal level, even if met with initial skepticism (as it has been so for many years). AAH, someone nabbed a tooth!I think, and you can ready your harpoons here, that the vocal audience that speaks about legitimizing eSports, especially in regards to television, blurs out some progress points made over the past four years just as this article barely grazes any progress made pre-2010. Granted, I may be discrediting the large lot of folks and invested fans but I think I may have overused legitimize as I am referencing examples such as ESL bumping up their attendance at major conventions as forms of converting and directly interacting mainstream gamers with the hype of competitions.Bolded: YESYESYES. That TV, despite its coming diminished cultural impact, still plays a massive role in both acknowledgement of eSports as well as recognition that could lead to more avenues of business and interest levels on a societal level, even if met with initial skepticism (as it has been so for many years). https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

BronzeKnee Profile Joined March 2011 United States 5110 Posts #18 On August 24 2014 05:46 CosmicSpiral wrote:



If he is using imperative in either of its two primary definitions ("absolutely necessary vs "expressive of a command, entreaty, or exhortation", that's perfectly fine. A word can have multiple meanings within a sentence as long as they adequately describe the subject and are complementary. It would only be a problem if we couldn't tell if imperative was an adjective or a noun: those definitions are irreconcilable.



The burden of clarification falls on the article, not the title.



I don't think we disagree.



It really comes down to whether or not if we can tell how he is using it? And can we? Absolutely not.



Look at the title: "The Absolutely Necessary Feeling to Legitimize eSports." Forget titles, when constructing sentences, you should be able to replace words with synonyms or their definition...for example... Discard headings, when writing one must be able to substitute words with like words. Does that make it clear? This article could have been about one of many things, including the necessary feeling we as people must have in order to legitimize eSports. But it isn't. The title as is makes sense to many because our brains auto-correct, the same way we can read the word tonite, know it means tonight. But it isn't correct.



And I'm sure we agree that any given article or book needs to be titled properly. despite the fact the burden falls on the article not the title. Therefore, the title must be clear. Good titles are thought provoking and to do that, it must be clear what the author is going to write about.





I don't think we disagree.It really comes down to whether or not if we can tell how he is using it? And can we? Absolutely not.Look at the title: "The Absolutely Necessary Feeling to Legitimize eSports." Forget titles, when constructing sentences, you should be able to replace words with synonyms or their definition...for example... Discard headings, when writing one must be able to substitute words with like words. Does that make it clear? This article could have been about one of many things, including the necessary feeling we as people must have in order to legitimize eSports. But it isn't. The title as is makes sense to many because our brains auto-correct, the same way we can read the word tonite, know it means tonight. But it isn't correct.And I'm sure we agree that any given article or book needs to be titled properly. despite the fact the burden falls on the article not the title. Therefore, the title must be clear. Good titles are thought provoking and to do that, it must be clear what the author is going to write about.

Torte de Lini Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Germany 30668 Posts #19 I'm getting a large feeling that I should make a sequel to this article about "legitimizing" and eSports What that entails, the end-goals should be, etc. I think it would be very opinionated and perhaps even wrong, but I'm up for the challenge as it seems to be lacking in this article: a missing cog! https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Noocta Profile Joined June 2010 France 12095 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-24 00:37:42 #20 Damn I hate the word legitimize and the whole discussion that come from it in the Esport world.

I really feel like it's not something worth discussing at all. Legitimacy isn't something to be concerned about because it's a pointless and stupid goal.



Let's just work toward growing what we have without making compromises in what we think will help our " legitimacy" to people that don't care and won't care.



edit : My rant isn't really addressed to the article itself. " I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "

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