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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 11:07:17 AM

Last edit: April 02, 2014, 05:23:00 PM by Beeker #1 Update 4/2/2014:



After much deliberation our team has decided not to continue this project.

We'll put our support and energy in supporting and buying X11 coins as we believe this is the algorithm for 2014.



We wish Charlie, the team and the community all the best for LTC.



Best regards,



(no longer) the LTC to X11 hardfork team.





================================================================





We, a team of Litecoin supporters and developers, are not satisfied with the current development of LTC.

That's why we are working on a hardfork for Litecoin to make it ASIC resistant.



This way we like to keep it decentralized, so no large ASIC manufacturers like KnCMiner, Gridseed or Alpha-T can takeover the network when Scrypt ASICS come widely available.



To lower the footprint of LTC and retain GPU mineability, the algorithm of our choice is X11.



We would like to hear from the Litecoin community if other changes, like to the difficulty algorithm, are preferred too.



Please keep this a nice and open discussion, this topic will not be moderated as we think everyone has the right to free speech.



More to follow, so stay tuned.



The LTC X11 team.













Litecoin [LTC] hardfork to X11



hardfork at block: ~564,480



may be subject to change, not set in concrete













Voting topic:













Discussion:













Statement by Litecoin developer:

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18166.0













github: coming soon

Litecoin-QT for Windows: coming soon

Litecoin-QT for GNU/Linux: coming soon

Litecoin-QT for Mac OS X: coming soon

Litecoin for Android: coming soon

Litecoin for BlackBerry: coming soon



















Mod note: Since this is picking up outside press, I'm tagging this as unofficial to avoid confusion. -Maged After much deliberation our team has decided not to continue this project.We'll put our support and energy in supporting and buying X11 coins as we believe this is the algorithm for 2014.We wish Charlie, the team and the community all the best for LTC.Best regards,(no longer) the LTC to X11 hardfork team.================================================================We, a team of Litecoin supporters and developers, are not satisfied with the current development of LTC.That's why we are working on a hardfork for Litecoin to make it ASIC resistant.This way we like to keep it decentralized, so no large ASIC manufacturers like KnCMiner, Gridseed or Alpha-T can takeover the network when Scrypt ASICS come widely available.To lower the footprint of LTC and retain GPU mineability, the algorithm of our choice is X11.We would like to hear from the Litecoin community if other changes, like to the difficulty algorithm, are preferred too.Please keep this a nice and open discussion, this topic will not be moderated as we think everyone has the right to free speech.More to follow, so stay tuned.The LTC X11 team.Litecoin [LTC] hardfork to X11hardfork at block: ~564,480may be subject to change, not set in concreteVoting topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=549592.0 Discussion: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18122.0 Statement by Litecoin developer:github: coming soonLitecoin-QT for Windows: coming soonLitecoin-QT for GNU/Linux: coming soonLitecoin-QT for Mac OS X: coming soonLitecoin for Android: coming soonLitecoin for BlackBerry: coming soon Meep meep

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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 11:17:50 AM #10 Quote from: Varvarin on March 30, 2014, 11:16:00 AM This has to be an early April Fool joke right?



Let us be clear, this is not a joke.



We are serious on securing the future of Litecoin.



We hope to convince the majority of the pools, exchanges, shops and most important the users to upgrade to our hardfork before block 546,480.

You will not lose coins.



People who have invested in scrypt ASICS may not support this hardfork, so we expect some resistance. Let us be clear, this is not a joke.We are serious on securing the future of Litecoin.We hope to convince the majority of the pools, exchanges, shops and most important the users to upgrade to our hardfork before block 546,480.You will not lose coins.People who have invested in scrypt ASICS may not support this hardfork, so we expect some resistance. Meep meep

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NewbieActivity: 55Merit: 0 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 11:47:30 AM #31 Quote from: Beeker on March 30, 2014, 11:07:17 AM

That's why we are working on a hardfork for Litecoin to make it ASIC resistant.



This way we like to keep it decentralized, so no large ASIC manufacturers like KnCMiner, Gridseed or Alpha-T can takeover the network when Scrypt ASICS come widely available.



To lower the footprint of LTC and retain GPU mineability, the algorithm of our choice is X11.



We would like to hear from the Litecoin community if other changes, like to the difficulty algorithm, are preferred too.



Please keep this a nice and open discussion, this topic will not be moderated as we think everyone has the right to free speech.



More to follow, so stay tuned.



The LTC X11 team.







http://picadump.com/ltc_x11/hardfork.png



Litecoin [LTC] hardfork to X11



hardfork at block: ~564,480







http://picadump.com/ltc_x11/downloads.png



github: coming soon

Litecoin-QT for Windows: coming soon

Litecoin-QT for GNU/Linux: coming soon

Litecoin-QT for Mac OS X: coming soon

Litecoin for Android: coming soon

Litecoin for BlackBerry: coming soon







http://picadump.com/ltc_x11/litecoin_x11.png

We, a team of Litecoin supporters and developers, are not satisfied with the current development of LTC.That's why we are working on a hardfork for Litecoin to make it ASIC resistant.This way we like to keep it decentralized, so no large ASIC manufacturers like KnCMiner, Gridseed or Alpha-T can takeover the network when Scrypt ASICS come widely available.To lower the footprint of LTC and retain GPU mineability, the algorithm of our choice is X11.We would like to hear from the Litecoin community if other changes, like to the difficulty algorithm, are preferred too.Please keep this a nice and open discussion, this topic will not be moderated as we think everyone has the right to free speech.More to follow, so stay tuned.The LTC X11 team.Litecoin [LTC] hardfork to X11hardfork at block: ~564,480github: coming soonLitecoin-QT for Windows: coming soonLitecoin-QT for GNU/Linux: coming soonLitecoin-QT for Mac OS X: coming soonLitecoin for Android: coming soonLitecoin for BlackBerry: coming soon

Damned good news for LTC! Damned good news for LTC!

thelonecrouton



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LegendaryActivity: 966Merit: 1000 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 12:09:54 PM #46 I wish you luck (I'm not into LTC in any way presently) but it's going to be a struggle, most people are completely clueless. ASICs have been shipping for months and idiots are still releasing new scrypt coins... bigger idiots are buying ASICs thinking they'll make a killing - they had better make that killing in the next two months, tops...



I've been backing scrypt-n since I started mining a month ago, the writing was on the wall for scrypt then. Now mining some X11 coins too. Scrypt is history.

mymym1n3r



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NewbieActivity: 7Merit: 0 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 12:30:28 PM #59



You say you want the developers help, but I see no mention of this on the litecoin talk forums? There is a whole discussion about going to N-factor that has basically be let to die.



This is going to involve a great deal of community support and discussion. You will need to be open to changing your initial ideas and finding some compromise. (Perhaps with enough discussion a compromise can be found that satisfies both GPU miners to keep it decentralized and ASIC miners to keep the network robust? Honestly, this is going to require some time and work.) As a result I find it foolish to declare a block to "fork" this.



I do believe if enough effort and conversation happens there can be enough improvement to the litecoins that maybe we can make this coin serious enough to be a BTC competitor; but someone is going to have to garner support and dedicate a ton of time. And you are going to need some support from the development staff, even if you move forward without their blessing.



Either way, good to see a conversation started. In my opinion this has a long ways to go before it will be a success. We will see how much work you and the community are willing to put in to this. If you are serious, you might want to kiss your life goodbye for a while Even if just from keeping the conversation going and promoting.



Anyway, I look forward to hearing your plans in more detail; and I strongly recommend that we look for some compromise between ASICs and decentralization if this is serious. I think it is good to discuss this in detail and see if a significant enough portion of the community is interested. I know I could personally get a fair share of miners to back this (fair share meaning not near enough to matter.) At the same time companies that are invested in ASICS and people who have bought them are going to probably spend a fair deal of coin going as far as to pay off the development team not to alter it.You say you want the developers help, but I see no mention of this on the litecoin talk forums? There is a whole discussion about going to N-factor that has basically be let to die.This is going to involve a great deal of community support and discussion. You will need to be open to changing your initial ideas and finding some compromise. (Perhaps with enough discussion a compromise can be found that satisfies both GPU miners to keep it decentralized and ASIC miners to keep the network robust? Honestly, this is going to require some time and work.) As a result I find it foolish to declare a block to "fork" this.I do believe if enough effort and conversation happens there can be enough improvement to the litecoins that maybe we can make this coin serious enough to be a BTC competitor; but someone is going to have to garner support and dedicate a ton of time. And you are going to need some support from the development staff, even if you move forward without their blessing.Either way, good to see a conversation started. In my opinion this has a long ways to go before it will be a success. We will see how much work you and the community are willing to put in to this. If you are serious, you might want to kiss your life goodbye for a whileEven if just from keeping the conversation going and promoting.Anyway, I look forward to hearing your plans in more detail; and I strongly recommend that we look for some compromise between ASICs and decentralization if this is serious.

Beeker



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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 12:48:04 PM #66 Quote from: atc1 on March 30, 2014, 12:36:10 PM How are you going to get it on the exchanges?



Why X11 and not something else like SHA-3 or SHA-512/Momentum/Primechain etc.?



Does "we" include any of the devs? If so,how many?



How is this fork going to maintain it's current value in the market?



I'm all for decentralization but do you have a fully-formed plan to fork (binaries,code) and more importantly,in the marketplace,what's the plan regarding exchanges and vendors? What's the map to ask the vendors to accept this?





Thanks for your reply.



We have thought about this.



Our group is small right now, 2 developers and 3 people (including myself) for PR and communication.



User Beeker is involved in this too and we use his account for the first weeks of communicating to the Bitcointalk community.

2 of us are well known hero members on Bitcointalk but won't yet disclose our identity until we think there's enough community support to get into the next phase of this project.



We understand the challenges ahead and we hope to get the main LTC team on our side, one they realize what LTC is facing.



To battle Bitcoin we need progressive thinking and a long-term vision for LTC. Thanks for your reply.We have thought about this.Our group is small right now, 2 developers and 3 people (including myself) for PR and communication.User Beeker is involved in this too and we use his account for the first weeks of communicating to the Bitcointalk community.2 of us are well known hero members on Bitcointalk but won't yet disclose our identity until we think there's enough community support to get into the next phase of this project.We understand the challenges ahead and we hope to get the main LTC team on our side, one they realize what LTC is facing.To battle Bitcoin we need progressive thinking and a long-term vision for LTC. Meep meep

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Hero MemberActivity: 546Merit: 500hm Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 12:53:29 PM #68 ASIC will get LTC away from the baby room to the adult room. ASICs make the coin stronger, not mining it with non specialized hardware. Question: Is a car produced with non-specialized hardware worth more? "Morality, it could be argued, represents the way that people would like the world to work - whereas economics represents how it actually does work." Freakonomics

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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1030 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 12:56:35 PM #70 Quote from: Beeker on March 30, 2014, 11:17:50 AM Quote from: Varvarin on March 30, 2014, 11:16:00 AM This has to be an early April Fool joke right?



Let us be clear, this is not a joke.



We are serious on securing the future of Litecoin.



We hope to convince the majority of the pools, exchanges, shops and most important the users to upgrade to our hardfork before block 546,480.

You will not lose coins.

Let us be clear, this is not a joke.We are serious on securing the future of Litecoin.We hope to convince the majority of the pools, exchanges, shops and most important the users to upgrade to our hardfork before block 546,480.You will not lose coins.

People will not lose coins, but the coins will be worth shit if the network forks. You are actually practicing a form of economic attack on LTC by spreading uncertainty over some kind of potential fork.



The right way to do it, is



a) to go through the official channels and ask for PoW change with a voting. If it's yes, the official coin will hardfork in a different PoW. If it's no, it's no.

or

b) to make a coin which suits you

People will not lose coins, but the coins will be worth shit if the network forks. You are actually practicing a form of economic attack on LTC by spreading uncertainty over some kind of potential fork.The right way to do it, isa) to go through the official channels and ask for PoW change with a voting. If it's yes, the official coin will hardfork in a different PoW. If it's no, it's no.orb) to make a coin which suits you

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MemberActivity: 113Merit: 10 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 01:02:57 PM #72 I do not see the point of doing that apart from throwing to the ground millions dollars of investments of ASCI companies and ASCI enthusiasts which buy them.

I think this will be very bad for LTC reputation and investors will go away.



ASCI is a natural step in a successful coin life and should be accepted. For me scrypt ASCI is innovation and innovation should not be killed.

There is already some interesting alternatives if you do not want to have an unfair mine-fight against ASCI (darkcoin, vertcoin, myriadcoin and many more) and you can always just sell them to LTC, if you are a long term LTC supporter.



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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 01:18:08 PM #78 Quote from: defaced on March 30, 2014, 01:14:38 PM Is there a mailing list I can join? Also, with out a substantial amount of hash to find blocks at the current difficulty how are you going to continue the chain?



We expect enough GPU miners to stay on Litecoin, the coin itself doesn't change, only the algorithm does.

We could calculate a drop in difficulty when the coin is hardforked, to anticipate the loss of hashingpower from existing scrypt ASICS but we doubt if it is needed. We expect enough GPU miners to stay on Litecoin, the coin itself doesn't change, only the algorithm does.We could calculate a drop in difficulty when the coin is hardforked, to anticipate the loss of hashingpower from existing scrypt ASICS but we doubt if it is needed. Meep meep

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Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 01:39:15 PM #85 X11 is even worse for litecoin then the scrypt asics.





1) its easy to "asic" it, it doesnt need alot of ram thus making the production cost of chips very low, i guess you can expect awesome speeds even with fpgas...

2) Its easy to cpu mine, makes litecoin very vulnerable to botnet attacks...

3) The only reason it uses only 60% of electricity compared to scrypt is, that the miner is totally unoptimized. The reason it uses so little electricity is simply that the cards aren't working at full power...



I really doubt you get the majority of miners to this, especially not without the ltc devs supporting that, a coin without good devs is a bad investment anyway.



PS: if something like that ever happens, it has to be a community effort including the original ltc devs and not from a bunch of anonymous guys...

Imho, the opportunity was missed todo that, it has been known that scrypt asics will hit the market for several months now, this had to be done before plenty of people preordered ASICs - but it wasnt. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

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Sr. MemberActivity: 324Merit: 250 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 01:50:57 PM #88 Start a new coin or mine darkcoin. You shouldn't hardfork litecoin just because GPU's will be less profitable from it.



I'm seeing no threat from mining companies to take over the network as there are a healthy amount of competitors in the market and the hardware is shipped to the users.







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Sr. MemberActivity: 350Merit: 250 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 01:53:43 PM #91 who are you anyway?

who are in your team?

are you a developer? if so, have you or your team developed any coin?

you want to change, so why just copy&paste X11?

if you are really developers, so you can create a new algorithm or at least add some extra layer to X11

not just copying and pasting



sorry for saying this, but i think its not your specialty but if it is, you'll need litecointalk.org community support too, not just here



or maybe it's just April fool joke

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Hero MemberActivity: 728Merit: 500 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 01:55:03 PM #92 Quote from: butjust41day on March 30, 2014, 01:31:25 PM Well the approach is different. Instead of just cloning litecoin like the many others you just try to steal the right to develop the coin. No wonder your an anonymous group.





steal the right ? it's open source

we could also fork bitcoin! its a free open source market.. no ?



anyway i suggest to the OP author to make your own coin..

many people (litecoin/bitcoin early adopters) spent a lot of money and probably litecoins to buy ASICs, won't be fair to hurt them



make your own coin or join a new coin with the POW algo. you like

there are a few new coins and algo. to choose from

steal the right ? it's open sourcewe could also fork bitcoin! its a free open source market.. no ?anyway i suggest to the OP author to make your own coin..many people (litecoin/bitcoin early adopters) spent a lot of money and probably litecoins to buy ASICs, won't be fair to hurt themmake your own coin or join a new coin with the POW algo. you likethere are a few new coins and algo. to choose from

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NewbieActivity: 19Merit: 0 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 02:08:31 PM #97 Guys, what you are discussing has already been done. Hirocoin is a litecoin clone with X11 algo. Don't make the mistake of thinking Hiro comes from Darkcoin, which most people believe. And on top of that a lot of blockchain security issues have been addressed. Hirocoin is adapting the best features available into one coin. So take a look at Hirocoin.

losh11



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Full MemberActivity: 299Merit: 100 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 02:11:35 PM #98 Quote from: Beeker on March 30, 2014, 01:33:21 PM Quote from: Xdragon on March 30, 2014, 01:32:52 PM

without ASICs LTC will never get to the moon

There are ASICS for LTC and I don't yet see a moon.

There are ASICS for LTC and I don't yet see a moon.

Gridseed is expensive, slow and uses a lot of power.

Attempting to change the Litecoin PoW is a bad idea - I'm guessing that not a lot of people will use your fork and that will mean there will be a lot of invalids between the official wallet and this wallet.



Warren is a legit programmer working with loads of individuals who are also professionals in their fields, bugs and errors will be more common in your software. By 6 months I've calculated the difficulty to be at above 52,000 (worked out with all current ASICs in the market). The Litecoin community is attempting to keep ASICs cheap and not cost $10,000 with a ROI of 2 days then after delivery of 5 months, making the ROI 18 months. Gridseed is expensive, slow and uses a lot of power.Attempting to change the Litecoin PoW is a bad idea - I'm guessing that not a lot of people will use your fork and that will mean there will be a lot of invalids between the official wallet and this wallet.Warren is a legit programmer working with loads of individuals who are also professionals in their fields, bugs and errors will be more common in your software. By 6 months I've calculated the difficulty to be at above 52,000 (worked out with all current ASICs in the market). The Litecoin community is attempting to keep ASICs cheap and not cost $10,000 with a ROI of 2 days then after delivery of 5 months, making the ROI 18 months.

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LegendaryActivity: 2422Merit: 1008 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 02:27:25 PM #100 Quote from: Bigballs on March 30, 2014, 02:08:31 PM Guys, what you are discussing has already been done. Hirocoin is a litecoin clone with X11 algo. Don't make the mistake of thinking Hiro comes from Darkcoin, which most people believe. And on top of that a lot of blockchain security issues have been addressed. Hirocoin is adapting the best features available into one coin. So take a look at Hirocoin.



too bad was ninja launched with huge instamine, i bet my ass that the dev has million and he probably dumped a large portion already seeing how the price is dumped recently



i'm not against instamine if there is an ann and everyone can instamine, but a ninja launch with a bad launch time(was like 7am for hirocoin) plus instamine is simply a giant scam too bad was ninja launched with huge instamine, i bet my ass that the dev has million and he probably dumped a large portion already seeing how the price is dumped recentlyi'm not against instamine if there is an ann and everyone can instamine, but a ninja launch with a bad launch time(was like 7am for hirocoin) plus instamine is simply a giant scam

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LegendaryActivity: 2030Merit: 1068 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 02:52:30 PM #103 Going for X11 will make Litecoin a popular target for botnets - right? And if you want something more power efficient, then ASICs are really the way forward.



In general, just changing algorithms for existings coins doesn't sound like a way to add stability to the crypto coins. And developing ASICs for X11 is also possible. Change algorithm next year again? No one will ever take the coins seriously if hard forks are created everytime someone is afraid that his GPU doesn't generate enough profit. Awesome Miner - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners

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Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web - Complete solution to manage and monitor mining operations of ASIC, GPU and CPU miners- Increased hashrate, improved power efficiency and more features. For S9, S9i, S9j, T9+, L3+, S17, S17 Pro, S17+, T17, T17+Up to 200,000 miners | Notifications | Native overclocking | Profit switching | Customizable rules | API | Windows application | Mobile web

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Sr. MemberActivity: 398Merit: 250 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 03:57:32 PM #112 This is a blantant scheme to HIJACK LTC

Changing algo is thinking from Miner's Perspective.

I don't think people who are pure traders of LTC

will appreciate it when they found out they are having

problem sending and receiving coins because some

rookies decide to hijack the transaction processing

method from "scrypt" to "x11".





Beeker



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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 04:06:07 PM #115 Quote from: xingqiaoyin on March 30, 2014, 03:57:32 PM This is a blantant scheme to HIJACK LTC

Changing algo is thinking from Miner's Perspective.

I don't think people who are pure traders of LTC

will appreciate it when they found out they are having

problem sending and receiving coins because some

rookies decide to hijack the transaction processing

method from "scrypt" to "x11".





Please, don't spread FUD.



When a majority supports this hardfork, there's no "hijacking". It's blockchain democracy.



It will probably take months to prepare everything and we will be careful.

All of us have a big stake in LTC and we won't take the risk to see it vaporize.



We are not satisfied with current development for Litecoin, it's very conservative, no decisions are made to secure it's future.

And as I said before, block 564,480 isn't set in concrete. There's a lot of work to be done.

Please, don't spread FUD.When a majority supports this hardfork, there's no "hijacking". It's blockchain democracy.It will probably take months to prepare everything and we will be careful.All of us have a big stake in LTC and we won't take the risk to see it vaporize.We are not satisfied with current development for Litecoin, it's very conservative, no decisions are made to secure it's future.And as I said before, block 564,480 isn't set in concrete. There's a lot of work to be done. Meep meep

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Full MemberActivity: 136Merit: 100 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 04:29:07 PM #119 What are you so scared of? Let asic take over scrypt coins then gpu farms can start supporting other coins that are more asic resistant. The value of any coin is in its community, which leads to global acceptance. Grow the community and the coin becomes more valuable

Maged



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LegendaryActivity: 1204Merit: 1006 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 04:45:06 PM #123 I find it very concerning that the main developers aren't behind this and may not even have had an opportunity to view this proposal, let alone comment on it. I also find it very concerning how lightly these guys are taking the idea of a hard fork. To hard fork a chain as established as Litecoin is without some chain-breaking emergency going on (i.e. Scrypt found to be completely broken), you need at least a year and a very good plan. The premise of leaving a placeholder for the new client downloads and making it seem like a block has already been chosen for the fork is misleading at best, if not outright fraudulent.



Therefore, in the interest of protecting the Bitcoin community, I have rightly flagged this thread as unofficial. You should be ashamed of having posted this.

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LegendaryActivity: 896Merit: 1000 Re:(Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 04:53:46 PM #124 Quote from: Maged on March 30, 2014, 04:45:06 PM I find it very concerning that the main developers aren't behind this and may not even have had an opportunity to view this proposal, let alone comment on it. I also find it very concerning how lightly these guys are taking the idea of a hard fork. To hard fork a chain as established as Litecoin is without some chain-breaking emergency going on (i.e. Scrypt found to be completely broken), you need at least a year and a very good plan. The premise of leaving a placeholder for the new client downloads and making it seem like a block has already been chosen for the fork is misleading at best, if not outright fraudulent.



Therefore, in the interest of protecting the Bitcoin community, I have rightly flagged this thread as unofficial. You should be ashamed of having posted this.



Thank you for doing this. Going renegade is not the way to go about enacting what someone may think is "the correct change." Thank you for doing this. Going renegade is not the way to go about enacting what someone may think is "the correct change."

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LegendaryActivity: 1946Merit: 1005My mule don't like people laughing Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 04:58:54 PM #125 LTC needs to stay scrypt to support and benefit from the scrypt asics. Why can't you just be content with mining Darkcoin? There are plenty of GPU farms out there that will certainly switch to that coin once the 250Mh KnC units begin arriving.





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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 05:04:32 PM #128 Quote from: Maged on March 30, 2014, 04:45:06 PM I find it very concerning that the main developers aren't behind this and may not even have had an opportunity to view this proposal, let alone comment on it. I also find it very concerning how lightly these guys are taking the idea of a hard fork. To hard fork a chain as established as Litecoin is without some chain-breaking emergency going on (i.e. Scrypt found to be completely broken), you need at least a year and a very good plan. The premise of leaving a placeholder for the new client downloads and making it seem like a block has already been chosen for the fork is misleading at best, if not outright fraudulent.



Therefore, in the interest of protecting the Bitcoin community, I have rightly flagged this thread as unofficial. You should be ashamed of having posted this.



To prevent confusion I have removed the blocknumber for the hardfork from the title.

As said before, the blocknumber is subject to change and not set in concrete.



A coin and blockchain is not owned by any developer and or group and if a majority of the people holding, mining, running exchanges and pools are behind a hardfork, nothing can stop it.



If there is no support by a majority to be found for a hardfork, there will be no hardfork.

As said before, we will take several months to prepare this and gain support.

We hope to get the developerteam of Litecoin behind us but they rejected changes and ideas before. Very conservative and we think they are not doing a good job for LTC.



You as a moderator on this forum, can probably see my real IP and my senior username. That should be enough to proof you're not dealing with a fraud or a rookie.



To preserve LTC for the future, it's now time to make decisions.



To prevent confusion I have removed the blocknumber for the hardfork from the title.As said before, the blocknumber is subject to change and not set in concrete.A coin and blockchain is not owned by any developer and or group and if a majority of the people holding, mining, running exchanges and pools are behind a hardfork, nothing can stop it.If there is no support by a majority to be found for a hardfork, there will be no hardfork.As said before, we will take several months to prepare this and gain support.We hope to get the developerteam of Litecoin behind us but they rejected changes and ideas before. Very conservative and we think they are not doing a good job for LTC.You as a moderator on this forum, can probably see my real IP and my senior username. That should be enough to proof you're not dealing with a fraud or a rookie.To preserve LTC for the future, it's now time to make decisions. Meep meep

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NewbieActivity: 10Merit: 0 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 05:49:53 PM #131 Why would I build another GPU rig for $2200 when i can get a Script Asic miner that hashes 3 times as much with less power and costs me less than $400?



The low cost high efficiency Asic machines make it even easier for everyone to mine litecoin for much less than using GPUs. So they should help to maintain decentralization. Basically anyone get > 8 MHS for $0.04 per kHs and use a ton less electricity than GPUs.



I might even give away my GPUs just to replace them with 30 Fibonacci recursions per GPU on my mining rig. Way cheaper way to get great hashing power on one rig and at a much lower price per kHs. I just can't see how that will decrease decentralization. Everyone can do the same without buying a KNC Titan.

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LegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1707Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 06:23:40 PM #134 Quote from: Coindgr on March 30, 2014, 02:55:58 PM



We cannot say it was really a ninja launch, there was a thread mentioning that a new coin would be launched. Just the hour of the launch wasn't mentioned.



Regarding the 7am launch time, depends which country you live in.



But this thread is for discussing the X11 for LTC, ASICS will probably make the price go up, but they'll stay in the hands of few.



Lets keep this on topic, those that advertise other coins in this thread get the obligatory ignore. Lets keep this on topic, those that advertise other coins in this thread get the obligatory ignore. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

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LegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1707Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 06:28:11 PM #135 Quote from: Maged on March 30, 2014, 04:45:06 PM I find it very concerning that the main developers aren't behind this and may not even have had an opportunity to view this proposal, let alone comment on it. I also find it very concerning how lightly these guys are taking the idea of a hard fork. To hard fork a chain as established as Litecoin is without some chain-breaking emergency going on (i.e. Scrypt found to be completely broken), you need at least a year and a very good plan. The premise of leaving a placeholder for the new client downloads and making it seem like a block has already been chosen for the fork is misleading at best, if not outright fraudulent.



Therefore, in the interest of protecting the Bitcoin community, I have rightly flagged this thread as unofficial. You should be ashamed of having posted this.



Good tag, but we all know this can never happen without Dev approval so it is a good discussion to have. After all As far as I know LTC was specifically intended to be ASIC proof. Or am I wrong on this? Good tag, but we all know this can never happen without Dev approval so it is a good discussion to have. After all As far as I know LTC was specifically intended to be ASIC proof. Or am I wrong on this? Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

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MemberActivity: 71Merit: 10 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 06:50:23 PM #138 Cryptocurrencies live or die by Metcalf's law - the network effect. The value of the network increases nonlinearly with the number of users.



Litecoin is the #2 crypto by market cap and is beginning to get some merchant adoption. If it is forcibly split into two chains, the value of both chains will likely be less than today's total. Uncertainty will kill merchant interest. Two smaller, weaker versions of litrecoin, divided, will both fail and be surpassed by others that are more stable.



Cryptos do not exist for the miners. Mining is a service to secure the chain. It should be hard. In a mature system, mining should earn low single digit % returns, otherwise the coin is no better than a bank.





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LegendaryActivity: 1708Merit: 1030 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 07:07:46 PM #139 Quote from: ivanlabrie on March 30, 2014, 06:49:39 PM X11 is stupid, only algo that is asic proof is scrypt chacha with scheduled N factor changes on a rather frequent schedule. Frequent enough to put down asic development.



No such thing as asic-proof with most common algorithms. If the schedule is known in advance, an ASIC designer can make the necessary accommodations.



If on the other hand the coin is protected by the will of the devs to hardfork to something slightly different, then any algorithm is ok. For example just as scrypt-n could change the n factor, X11 could hardfork to reverse the flow of hashing between some hash types, thus braking ASIC functionality that expects the flow to go a certain way. Or even adding another two three hashes and making it X12/X13/X14/X15 etc.

No such thing as asic-proof with most common algorithms. If the schedule is known in advance, an ASIC designer can make the necessary accommodations.If on the other hand the coin is protected by the will of the devs to hardfork to something slightly different, then any algorithm is ok. For example just as scrypt-n could change the n factor, X11 could hardfork to reverse the flow of hashing between some hash types, thus braking ASIC functionality that expects the flow to go a certain way. Or even adding another two three hashes and making it X12/X13/X14/X15 etc.

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Full MemberActivity: 253Merit: 100 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 07:59:40 PM #143 Quote from: Alibell854 on March 30, 2014, 05:49:53 PM Why would I build another GPU rig for $2200 when i can get a Script Asic miner that hashes 3 times as much with less power and costs me less than $400?



The low cost high efficiency Asic machines make it even easier for everyone to mine litecoin for much less than using GPUs. So they should help to maintain decentralization. Basically anyone get > 8 MHS for $0.04 per kHs and use a ton less electricity than GPUs.



I might even give away my GPUs just to replace them with 30 Fibonacci recursions per GPU on my mining rig. Way cheaper way to get great hashing power on one rig and at a much lower price per kHs. I just can't see how that will decrease decentralization. Everyone can do the same without buying a KNC Titan.



Just because it's not a fair market... Somebody, maybe who developed these Asic, is already using them... with such huge scrypt firepower they are collecting scrypt coins like nuts!.. Just some months for them to collect lot of coins witn a not fair hardware equipment... Who bought them in preorder gave the money long time ago... and they will receive asic when it will be late and the producers already squeezed out the most precious juice from scrypt coins... Good business is to have money in advance, to use now these asic and to dispatch them out with a high delay! Too easy and too unfair for me! and again... once these asic will finally be in stock they will already have a 2nd generation ready to mine for them w your money again at a higher and higher hashrate...

If the team will think it's better to change the algo then i'm for it!

Long life to the GPUs mining rigs! Just because it's not a fair market... Somebody, maybe who developed these Asic, is already using them... with such huge scrypt firepower they are collecting scrypt coins like nuts!.. Just some months for them to collect lot of coins witn a not fair hardware equipment... Who bought them in preorder gave the money long time ago... and they will receive asic when it will be late and the producers already squeezed out the most precious juice from scrypt coins... Good business is to have money in advance, to use now these asic and to dispatch them out with a high delay! Too easy and too unfair for me! and again... once these asic will finally be in stock they will already have a 2nd generation ready to mine for them w your money again at a higher and higher hashrate...If the team will think it's better to change the algo then i'm for it!Long life to the GPUs mining rigs!

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Hero MemberActivity: 812Merit: 1000 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 08:01:20 PM #144 Quote from: AlexGR on March 30, 2014, 07:07:46 PM Quote from: ivanlabrie on March 30, 2014, 06:49:39 PM X11 is stupid, only algo that is asic proof is scrypt chacha with scheduled N factor changes on a rather frequent schedule. Frequent enough to put down asic development.



No such thing as asic-proof with most common algorithms. If the schedule is known in advance, an ASIC designer can make the necessary accommodations.



If on the other hand the coin is protected by the will of the devs to hardfork to something slightly different, then any algorithm is ok. For example just as scrypt-n could change the n factor, X11 could hardfork to reverse the flow of hashing between some hash types, thus braking ASIC functionality that expects the flow to go a certain way. Or even adding another two three hashes and making it X12/X13/X14/X15 etc.



No such thing as asic-proof with most common algorithms. If the schedule is known in advance, an ASIC designer can make the necessary accommodations.If on the other hand the coin is protected by the will of the devs to hardfork to something slightly different, then any algorithm is ok. For example just as scrypt-n could change the n factor, X11 could hardfork to reverse the flow of hashing between some hash types, thus braking ASIC functionality that expects the flow to go a certain way. Or even adding another two three hashes and making it X12/X13/X14/X15 etc.

You're not getting it...hard forking the coin every time is too complicated and not a good idea, imho.



Scheduled n factor changes make it pretty hard for asic developments to surface, since you'd need more and more ram each time to maintain the shaders saturated. Gpus will win each time, since you can adjust settings or get gpus with more vram and play with raw intensity and lookup gap.



Making asics and having to modify the software or making a new batch for each N factor is not economically feasible at all. You're not getting it...hard forking the coin every time is too complicated and not a good idea, imho.Scheduled n factor changes make it pretty hard for asic developments to surface, since you'd need more and more ram each time to maintain the shaders saturated. Gpus will win each time, since you can adjust settings or get gpus with more vram and play with raw intensity and lookup gap.Making asics and having to modify the software or making a new batch for each N factor is not economically feasible at all.

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NewbieActivity: 5Merit: 0 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 08:12:42 PM #145 IMHO Better create your coin if you want your own algo. At the time of this means you do not have the ability to handle a coin and prefer to take the hard job of others(devs, community, minners, investors) and a stable user base, just my opinion don't hate me

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Sr. MemberActivity: 266Merit: 250 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 08:24:15 PM #146 Quote from: victormx on March 30, 2014, 08:12:42 PM

IMHO Better create your coin if you want your own algo. At the time of this means you do not have the ability to handle a coin and prefer to take the hard job of others(devs, community, minners, investors) and a stable user base, just my opinion don't hate me



These idiots think they can fork the litecoin change, fuck it rare possibility they will they choose x11, something that isn't even tested properly yet.



No point making Litecoin ASIC proof, the real aim is having the ASIC's diversified. I do whatever in my power i can to discourage the promotion of PRE-Orders happening, once we keep it this way it's unlikely we will have another BFLabs fiasco happening. These idiots think they can fork the litecoin change, fuck it rare possibility they will they choose x11, something that isn't even tested properly yet.No point making Litecoin ASIC proof, the real aim is having the ASIC's diversified. I do whatever in my power i can to discourage the promotion of PRE-Orders happening, once we keep it this way it's unlikely we will have another BFLabs fiasco happening.

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LegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1707Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 08:32:22 PM

Last edit: March 30, 2014, 08:49:00 PM by Hueristic #147 Quote from: AlexGR on March 30, 2014, 07:07:46 PM Quote from: ivanlabrie on March 30, 2014, 06:49:39 PM X11 is stupid, only algo that is asic proof is scrypt chacha with scheduled N factor changes on a rather frequent schedule. Frequent enough to put down asic development.



No such thing as asic-proof with most common algorithms. If the schedule is known in advance, an ASIC designer can make the necessary accommodations.



If on the other hand the coin is protected by the will of the devs to hardfork to something slightly different, then any algorithm is ok. For example just as scrypt-n could change the n factor, X11 could hardfork to reverse the flow of hashing between some hash types, thus braking ASIC functionality that expects the flow to go a certain way. Or even adding another two three hashes and making it X12/X13/X14/X15 etc.



No such thing as asic-proof with most common algorithms. If the schedule is known in advance, an ASIC designer can make the necessary accommodations.If on the other hand the coin is protected by the will of the devs to hardfork to something slightly different, then any algorithm is ok. For example just as scrypt-n could change the n factor, X11 could hardfork to reverse the flow of hashing between some hash types, thus braking ASIC functionality that expects the flow to go a certain way. Or even adding another two three hashes and making it X12/X13/X14/X15 etc.

QFT





EDIT:

I would also like to add that if and when the Devs do this they will have PROVEN that they are willing and able to hard fork when needed and then those that would profit on creating the ASIC for the next fork will realize it is doomed to failure before release and therefor will naturally not attempt it again. QFTEDIT:I would also like to add that if and when the Devs do this they will haveand then those that would profit on creating the ASIC for the next fork will realize it is doomed to failure before release and therefor will naturally not attempt it again. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

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MemberActivity: 71Merit: 10 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 08:47:56 PM #149 If you want to experiment, make your own coin. There is $350 million in market value in Litecoin, and a rogue hard fork puts that value at risk. A big part of that value is due to the stability, longevity, and widespread adoption of litecoin. The technology is proven. Your proposal will destroy the very factors that make Litecoin valuable as it is today.

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LegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1707Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 08:52:12 PM #150 Quote from: jayson3 on March 30, 2014, 08:47:56 PM If you want to experiment, make your own coin. There is $350 million in market value in Litecoin, and a rogue hard fork puts that value at risk. A big part of that value is due to the stability, longevity, and widespread adoption of litecoin. The technology is proven. Your proposal will destroy the very factors that make Litecoin valuable as it is today.



Ok Nostradamus. I think you missed the point of this discussion.



BTW before anyone thinks otherwise, I am not part of this group and stumbled on this thread as I have been thinking ASIC is a centralization factor for some time and only one coin can afford it and that coin is already "Coined" so to speak. Ok Nostradamus. I think you missed the point of this discussion.BTW before anyone thinks otherwise, I am not part of this group and stumbled on this thread as I have been thinking ASIC is a centralization factor for some time and only one coin can afford it and that coin is already "Coined" so to speak. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

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MemberActivity: 94Merit: 10Meep Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 09:46:57 PM #154 Quote from: gerdab on March 30, 2014, 09:33:38 PM so, there'll be 2 LTC or the older must die?



If a majority agrees on mining and trading with the updated client (with the hardfork set at block 5xx,xxx) the old chain can still be mined but will not be accepted by pools, exchanges, etc.



Hardforking is the easy part, the developers told me.

The difficult part is to get everyone behind us, on the new fork.



That's where our challenge lies ahead.



Litecoin is not owned by the current developers or anyone, it's a decentralized P2P currency and if enough people support a change, that's the change.

That's why, for example, Ghostlander was able to takeover PXC when the developers went awol; the community, pools and exchanges accepted his hardfork for the parameters he changed.



We like to call coins "decentralized" but when a group offers to bring changes to the coin, people start pointing at the LTC developers. They are not needed, just like Satoshi Nakamoto wasn't needed for the success of Bitcoin.



Some people are screaming and shouting at us for the fact that we want to bring progress to LTC. I guess they don't understand how P2P cryptocurrencies work. If a majority agrees on mining and trading with the updated client (with the hardfork set at block 5xx,xxx) the old chain can still be mined but will not be accepted by pools, exchanges, etc.Hardforking is the easy part, the developers told me.The difficult part is to get everyone behind us, on the new fork.That's where our challenge lies ahead.Litecoin is not owned by the current developers or anyone, it's a decentralized P2P currency and if enough people support a change, that's the change.That's why, for example, Ghostlander was able to takeover PXC when the developers went awol; the community, pools and exchanges accepted his hardfork for the parameters he changed.We like to call coins "decentralized" but when a group offers to bring changes to the coin, people start pointing at the LTC developers. They are not needed, just like Satoshi Nakamoto wasn't needed for the success of Bitcoin.Some people are screaming and shouting at us for the fact that we want to bring progress to LTC. I guess they don't understand how P2P cryptocurrencies work. Meep meep

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LegendaryActivity: 2478Merit: 1707Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 10:02:13 PM #155 Quote from: Beeker on March 30, 2014, 09:46:57 PM Quote from: gerdab on March 30, 2014, 09:33:38 PM so, there'll be 2 LTC or the older must die?



If a majority agrees on mining and trading with the updated client (with the hardfork set at block 5xx,xxx) the old chain can still be mined but will not be accepted by pools, exchanges, etc.



Hardforking is the easy part, the developers told me.

The difficult part is to get everyone behind us, on the new fork.



That's where our challenge lies ahead.



Litecoin is not owned by the current developers or anyone, it's a decentralized P2P currency and if enough people support a change, that's the change.

That's why, for example, Ghostlander was able to takeover PXC when the developers went awol; the community, pools and exchanges accepted his hardfork for the parameters he changed.



We like to call coins "decentralized" but when a group offers to bring changes to the coin, people start pointing at the LTC developers. They are not needed, just like Satoshi Nakamoto wasn't needed for the success of Bitcoin.



Some people are screaming and shouting at me, I guess they don't understand how P2P cryptocurrencies work.

If a majority agrees on mining and trading with the updated client (with the hardfork set at block 5xx,xxx) the old chain can still be mined but will not be accepted by pools, exchanges, etc.Hardforking is the easy part, the developers told me.The difficult part is to get everyone behind us, on the new fork.That's where our challenge lies ahead.Litecoin is not owned by the current developers or anyone, it's a decentralized P2P currency and if enough people support a change, that's the change.That's why, for example, Ghostlander was able to takeover PXC when the developers went awol; the community, pools and exchanges accepted his hardfork for the parameters he changed.We like to call coins "decentralized" but when a group offers to bring changes to the coin, people start pointing at the LTC developers. They are not needed, just like Satoshi Nakamoto wasn't needed for the success of Bitcoin.Some people are screaming and shouting at me, I guess they don't understand how P2P cryptocurrencies work.

The first step to getting everyone onboard is to get the Dev's to come in a thread and SAY they are onboard. Since you have spoken to them this should not be a problem rite?



I would just like to see them start a thread to discuss the matter. The community should decide on what algo to change if any not some guy that says We are gonna add x11. I'm not arguing it's not the best algo to goto as I freely admit I have not researched it and don't intend to spend my time do just that. But it does need to be vetted by those that are capable as well as vested. The first step to getting everyone onboard is to get the Dev's to come in a thread and SAY they are onboard. Since you have spoken to them this should not be a problem rite?I would just like to see them start a thread to discuss the matter. The community should decide on what algo to change if any not some guy that says We are gonna add x11. I'm not arguing it's not the best algo to goto as I freely admit I have not researched it and don't intend to spend my time do just that. But it does need to be vetted by those that are capable as well as vested. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 446Merit: 250 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 10:14:31 PM #156 I vote NO.



If you want a new algorithm then make a new coin or mine one that has what you like. Litecoin is fine as it is.



ASIC is the natural progression from GPU's just as GPU's were from CPU's.



Also, if there's a split it 'could' make both chains more vulnerable to attack.



It will likely bring into question the coins value/security.



Again, if you want something different, why mess with litecoin?



Not everyone can deal with GPU's and the problems that come with them. ASIC's (although pre orders suck) allow even more people to get involved as they are usually self contained professionally designed devices.



My 2 cents.

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Full MemberActivity: 147Merit: 100 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 10:43:00 PM #159



A hard fork is simply the creation of a new coin. Sure you can say, "This new coin will honor the balances of the old coin prior to block X", but its still a new coin.



There is no point in fighting technological progress, you will ultimately fail. You cannot protect anything from the future.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite OP, I understand what you are trying to do, but you are fighting a losing battle.A hard fork is simply the creation of a new coin. Sure you can say, "This new coin will honor the balances of the old coin prior to block X", but its still a new coin.There is no point in fighting technological progress, you will ultimately fail. You cannot protect anything from the future. 1E1GrECoNP1RpvWe72kS5cDZozA47nUFs4

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Hero MemberActivity: 812Merit: 1000 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 10:51:01 PM #160 Quote from: elgreco on March 30, 2014, 10:43:00 PM



A hard fork is simply the creation of a new coin. Sure you can say, "This new coin will honor the balances of the old coin prior to block X", but its still a new coin.



There is no point in fighting technological progress, you will ultimately fail. You cannot protect anything from the future.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

OP, I understand what you are trying to do, but you are fighting a losing battle.A hard fork is simply the creation of a new coin. Sure you can say, "This new coin will honor the balances of the old coin prior to block X", but its still a new coin.There is no point in fighting technological progress, you will ultimately fail. You cannot protect anything from the future.

"Technological" progress as in "pre-order funded R&D" devices that you get way after the manufacturer's done playing with them is not my idea of progress nor descentralization.

I think greed will make it hard to fight these asic beeyetches but the pre-order scam must die, people should vote with their wallets...just my opinion naturally.



You won't make any money buying asics from the greedy as fug manufacturers who only deal with pre-orders. Go gpu, AMD or Nvidia don't care as much as to not sell you gpus and mine themselves, they got better things to do. "Technological" progress as in "pre-order funded R&D" devices that you get way after the manufacturer's done playing with them is not my idea of progress nor descentralization.I think greed will make it hard to fight these asic beeyetches but the pre-order scam must die, people should vote with their wallets...just my opinion naturally.You won't make any money buying asics from the greedy as fug manufacturers who only deal with pre-orders. Go gpu, AMD or Nvidia don't care as much as to not sell you gpus and mine themselves, they got better things to do.

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NewbieActivity: 38Merit: 0 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 30, 2014, 11:24:42 PM #162 Doing this wouldn't secure LiteCoin's future. It would doom it.



ASIC doesn't mean you loose decentralization. I mine both with GPUs and with ASICs. ASICs are cheaper, faster, energy efficient. The energy efficiency means someone like myself who doesnt own a datacenter with 1000s of AMPs of power can mine 100s of MegaHashs. If you stay with GPUs then in the future only people with lots of time, money, large scale cooling, and power can mine the coin for profit.



Again ASICs means you can mine coin for *cheaper* up front costs.

Again ASICs means you can mine coin for *less* power.

Again ASICs means you can *scale* your mining operation to larger heights without having data-center like resources.

Again ASICs means more coin, for less energy, to *more people*, faster.



ASICs should not be feared.



People do not like that they will have to spend more money after buying a lot of GPUs that may have not yet gotten a ROI. That is understandable. And there are other Coins out there that are still GPU only. So there is no need to throw in the towel. Why not look into up-in-coming coin ideas. Like SecureCoin, or FairQuark. Or some of the N-Scrypt coins.



If you make a coin that tries to replace LiteCoin but is more ASIC resistant you will just... lower.. the difficulty of ... litecoin... hrmm... GO GO GO dam those dirty ASICs for taking over LiteCoin... ALL GPU miners should just leave now! Power to the ... rrr... X11 Coin!? woot!



p.s:

Also... X11!? De-frack? You REALLY wanna name your coin after a monolithic horrible bundle of miss match code that is X11. Not to borrow from the Emacs haters but... X11 is a good OS, its just lacking a Window System. Actually that isn't even true... its horrible. All hail WayLand!

kocur



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We're not in Wonderland anymore Alice







Full MemberActivity: 140Merit: 100We're not in Wonderland anymore Alice Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 30, 2014, 11:41:12 PM #164 Quote from: splawik21 on March 30, 2014, 05:02:12 PM Quote from: MisO69 on March 30, 2014, 04:58:54 PM LTC needs to stay scrypt to support and benefit from the scrypt asics. Why can't you just be content with mining Darkcoin? There are plenty of GPU farms out there that will certainly switch to that coin once the 250Mh KnC units begin arriving.







Agree, change the coin which mines X11, I mine DRK and I`m very satisfied.

Agree, change the coin which mines X11, I mine DRK and I`m very satisfied.

When I calc profit at current price for 30,000 khash /X11/:



DRK about 12 DRK daily = 0.01682 BTC

HIRO about 2000 HIRO daily = 0.0436 BTC



really don't understand how can someone mine DRK and be happy with so low earnings.

Fact is, that X11 consume about -50% electricity compare with scrypt, but anyway 0,016 daily is fuckin low for that speed









And I thing X11 for regular ltc is not good idea. Ltc is fine now, when the price jump up thanks to asics, more X11 alts will come. Thats good for GPUs future. There is new ltc for gpus - HIRO

And really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturer

Time to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .) Why do you mine DRK instead HIRO?When I calc profit at current price for 30,000 khash /X11/:DRK about 12 DRK daily = 0.01682 BTCHIRO about 2000 HIRO daily = 0.0436 BTCreally don't understand how can someone mine DRK and be happy with so low earnings.Fact is, that X11 consume about -50% electricity compare with scrypt, but anyway 0,016 daily is fuckin low for that speedAnd I thing X11 for regular ltc is not good idea. Ltc is fine now, when the price jump up thanks to asics, more X11 alts will come. Thats good for GPUs future. There is new ltc for gpus - HIROAnd really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturerTime to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .) Community Coin: Fair & Free Distribution

orcephrye



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NewbieActivity: 38Merit: 0 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 31, 2014, 12:00:27 AM #168 Quote from: kocur on March 30, 2014, 11:41:12 PM

And really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturer

Time to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

And I thing X11 for regular ltc is not good idea. Ltc is fine now, when the price jump up thanks to asics, more X11 alts will come. Thats good for GPUs future. There is new ltc for gpus - HIROAnd really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturerTime to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.



-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

kocur



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We're not in Wonderland anymore Alice







Full MemberActivity: 140Merit: 100We're not in Wonderland anymore Alice Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 31, 2014, 12:08:34 AM #171 Quote from: orcephrye on March 31, 2014, 12:00:27 AM Quote from: kocur on March 30, 2014, 11:41:12 PM

And really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturer

Time to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

And I thing X11 for regular ltc is not good idea. Ltc is fine now, when the price jump up thanks to asics, more X11 alts will come. Thats good for GPUs future. There is new ltc for gpus - HIROAnd really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturerTime to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.



-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

While forgotten gpu miners r still on scrypt, other gets huge hashes for a buck. Its about it... I mean decentralized network, not coins. And because you dont have any TITAN at this time, but knc yes .)While forgotten gpu miners r still on scrypt, other gets huge hashes for a buck. Its about it... Community Coin: Fair & Free Distribution

Propulsion



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The Buck Stops Here.







Hero MemberActivity: 658Merit: 500The Buck Stops Here. Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 31, 2014, 12:21:46 AM #172 This is a terribly short-sighted idea. I'm betting that your rationalizing this decision because you will no longer be able to mine Litecoin directly with your GPU's. A cryptocurrency should be looked at as a way to purchase goods. It was never supposed to be your own money printing machine. Grow up.

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MemberActivity: 119Merit: 10 Re: [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 31, 2014, 12:26:58 AM #173 Quote from: Soepkip on March 30, 2014, 12:52:27 PM Just my personal opinion:



I feel like this is just butthurt GPU miners being butthurt that Scrypt is slowly evolving to ASIC. I don't see the problem with it really to be honest:



- ASICs will provide a higher hashrate, thus it will improve on the security of the Litecoin system

- ASICs are cheaper then GPU's, not only in gear but also in terms of power and heat.

- LiteCoin will grow more professional by having a bigger hashrate, since it will be way less suspectable to 51% attacks. More trust from vendors etc.

- Scrypt ASICs have MANY other options to mine than just Litecoin, it is not like Bitcoin which is most of the times the most profitable to mine for SHA ASICs.



If you are really serious about your mining then start investing in the future and get an ASIC scrypt miner. It'll save you a bunch on your powerbills and thus (at the moment) make you more money. Throwing it on X11 would push the whole network to a way lower hashrate I expect, unless it's suddenly WAY more profitable to do. Also I don't expect the market to be particulary happy with this.





This is 100% true. This will fail miserably. The old blockchain will have more users and more hash. I haven't really heard a good reason for switching algos besides GPU miners wanting to get the best ROI. I'm all for decentralization and the dev in this thread is correct in that if he gathers enough support then his fork can become the official "LTC" blockchain. The idea that the original devs have 100% control of the blockchain moving forward defeats the purpose of having it decentralized in the first place. ASICs are like $200... go buy one if you want to keep mining! Group buy a big one. Plenty of options other than trying to fork the chain that will just cause confusion. This is 100% true. This will fail miserably. The old blockchain will have more users and more hash. I haven't really heard a good reason for switching algos besides GPU miners wanting to get the best ROI. I'm all for decentralization and the dev in this thread is correct in that if he gathers enough support then his fork can become the official "LTC" blockchain. The idea that the original devs have 100% control of the blockchain moving forward defeats the purpose of having it decentralized in the first place. ASICs are like $200... go buy one if you want to keep mining! Group buy a big one. Plenty of options other than trying to fork the chain that will just cause confusion. Gift cards for LTC and DOGE at ltcasics.com!

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Full MemberActivity: 150Merit: 100 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 31, 2014, 12:47:44 AM #175

Woot go for it ! and why the hell the Litecoin Dev has not been working on this since the mere rumor of Asics hitting scrypt is beyond me. When i came from Bitcoin and watching that get hit by Asics and become what it is now i jumped on Supporting Litecoin and was gung ho about it and you know why? Because it was supposedly Asic Proof.



I support you guys here with this fork but really simply think the Litecoin Dev's should have stood to their words and changed a few lines of coding making Litecoin truly asic proof. If Litecoin did this other alts would get off there ass's and follow the benchmark you guys set..





All i know is if the community sits back once again as us gpu miners were forced out of Bitcoin now sit back and do nothing as we are kicked out of this community then that's just pathetic.



The company that even though about making Asics for Script as nothing more then pathetic bottom feeders anyway.



Once those Asics come there will be no saving Scrypt so im with ya 100% No asics in scrypt...GTFO!



MybadOmen

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NewbieActivity: 38Merit: 0 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 31, 2014, 01:07:01 AM #179 Quote from: kocur on March 31, 2014, 12:08:34 AM Quote from: orcephrye on March 31, 2014, 12:00:27 AM Quote from: kocur on March 30, 2014, 11:41:12 PM

And really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturer

Time to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

And I thing X11 for regular ltc is not good idea. Ltc is fine now, when the price jump up thanks to asics, more X11 alts will come. Thats good for GPUs future. There is new ltc for gpus - HIROAnd really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturerTime to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.



-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

While forgotten gpu miners r still on scrypt, other gets huge hashes for a buck. Its about it...

I mean decentralized network, not coins. And because you dont have any TITAN at this time, but knc yes .)While forgotten gpu miners r still on scrypt, other gets huge hashes for a buck. Its about it...

First I mean coins as in any coin's hashrate at the moment.



I could simply end this argument by pointing you at BitCoin and saying... its decentralized... its completely ASIC. Argument finished. But.. here is a rant if you want.



Knc isn't the only company producing Asics for scrypt. They are also only one company and there production cannot take 51% of the global hashrate for LiteCoin or DogeCoin.. or hell WorldCoin.



Also I ordered asics from GridSeed. And I have them running now. So... although i did experience unexpected delays I do not feel that is because Hashra wants to take 51% of the hashing power to rule the LTC world! MUAHAHAHAHAAH... cough cough



Lets say you only do mining with a GPU only coin. Lets get the scenario set.

1. The difficulty will always rise. (Just like BTC and LTC)

2. The price rises over time... in theory but has bumps along there way. (Just like BTC and LTC)

3. The price also doesn't rise in direct proportion to the diff. (Just like BTC and LTC)



You mine with your GPUs.

You have 12 of them.

You can space currently for 12 more. Any more and you would have to either move your setup or pay for an electrician for more AMPs and better cooling.

The diff keeps going up.

You keep adding more.

You like many other people run out of space and/or power and/or effect way to cool.

The diff keeps rising

The diff keeps rising

... rising.... rising

How does it keep rising?

Two things...

1. People keep adopting the coin and they setup there own 12+ cards.

2. There are people out there that have there own mini datacenters with 100s of cards. These people have money.. and time.

Eventually it becomes more and more unpractical to mine with your GPUs with this coin. You move on to another coin.

Eventually the mass majority of miners left on that coin are the ones with piss tons of GPUs. That is not very decentralized.



If you say... "Wait the price will go up too. So my 24 card rig would still make money right?". Will it make more money then perhaps a different coin? If you where to shift with others wouldn't that be a sign that your coin isn't stable?



But more notably. Diff DOES NOT EFFECT PRICE! Or at least not heavily. Trading amounts and adoption effect price. The more trades normally means the price will rise. BitCoin rose and fell not with its diff (although the diff has rose) the price rose with a massive adoption and interest in the coin, mostly in China. The diff and the price of wattage helps to keep the price from dropping below a certain point. And it also helps to rise the price. But it only a minor effect in comparison to say.. rumors of China changing there policy on crypocurrancy. That can cause price drops... huge ones.





Here is an analogy:

Say you want to get into the mover business. Its awesome. You can make money on the side and you can use equipment you already own and take care of. Other people catch onto the idea for some spare cash and its really exciting. You have your car to help move stuff and you get paid for it.



Well time goes by and more people want to get into it. They see it as a way to make more money. Not just on the side. So they go out and buy a truck. Trucks are much more fuel efficient. You see your car may get twice.. nearly 3 times the fuel economy. But because its a small car you have to make 10 trips. The Truck only 1 thus more efficient. And because you have to take 10 trips the guy with the Truck can get many more jobs before you even get one finished.



Before you know it its hard to find even a single job because everyone around now has Trucks. So what do you do? Do you buy a Truck or do you complain that everyone else has one?



Well of course you complain that everyone else has a Truck but you do not.



But it gets worse. You see there are lots of people out there interested in the mover business now. You are a trend starter! But they look at your car and wonder why? Its more expensive. It may have low upfront cost, but it has low long term returns. It may be a nicer starter point to test the waters so to speak. But it is not a solid long term investment.



Because of this the mover business isn't taken seriously and wide adoption isn't excepted. (This is where the analogy really breaks up... but yeah its not perfect) Without being taken seriously the system can never grow beyond a certain point. It can be a great tool to fight the man or the banking system if you are in a 3rd world country. Or Spain whose youth pretty much blame the Banks for being assholes. But thats about it.







All you have to do is look at BitCoin to see how awesome ASICs are to the little guy. Right now I can buy an ANT Miner S1 for roughly 400 bucks with shipping included! It will arrive at my doorstep before the end of the week. (I buy from BitMain directly and I always get them in roughly 3 to 4 days later). There current return in investment is about 60 days! You CANNOT do that with GPUs. A new R9 280x from newegg is not going to get you that kinda ROI with almost any coin. And if it does the longer that Coin is around the less the ROI will be for mining it. Rise in diff being faster then the rise in price.



If someone wanted to get them selves into mining I would point them in that direction. They are cheap, you can buy them and get them within days. And there ROI is quick. Oh... one more then... you dont have to learn a bunch of crazy computer stuff. No Linux.. no windows... riser cards whats that? I have to short the A1 and B17 pins on a PCI 1x slot.. i didn't even know that was hot swappable! Compile what you say? Or... can you browse the web? Good you can setup a dam Ant Miner S1 none of that other noise. Congrats you are mining. You can put easily 5+ or 10+ in your house without changing a dam thing.



ASICs empowers new comers. (Makes it easy by putting into one package)

ASICs is cheaper. (400 bucks after shipping is about the same price or only a little more then a R9 280x which doesn't give you as much)

ASICs improves centralization by giving everyone the ability to scale there mining operation. And if you are running out of power in your house using ASICs then at that point you are easily making enough money to go Colo.



GPUs where not made for mining. They where made for graphics. They demand a lot more power. It is simply better to use a device/tool for what it was meant for. What needs to be focused on is the coin features and technology itself. Not how its "mined" or "minted".



Its a noble idea to let people use equipment they already own to help them make more money. But the truth is that most miners and any serious miners are people who are already in one way or another in the techy/nerdy field. You are not empowering the world. Just a bunch of nerdy geeky people... like myself. And that isn't going to change. The daily user of BTC/LTC/X11 shouldn't need to mine. They simply use the currency.



Again on my soap box but focus should be on things like BitCoin 2.0. Or new ideas like Poof of Stake or multi-algorithm coins. That try to help deal with some of the possible pitfalls of the current coins. BitCoin is only an idea. And the idea still needs work. That should be the focus.



And... I just wasted 30 minutes of my life... *sigh* why internet... why. First I mean coins as in any coin's hashrate at the moment.I could simply end this argument by pointing you at BitCoin and saying... its decentralized... its completely ASIC. Argument finished. But.. here is a rant if you want.Knc isn't the only company producing Asics for scrypt. They are also only one company and there production cannot take 51% of the global hashrate for LiteCoin or DogeCoin.. or hell WorldCoin.Also I ordered asics from GridSeed. And I have them running now. So... although i did experience unexpected delays I do not feel that is because Hashra wants to take 51% of the hashing power to rule the LTC world! MUAHAHAHAHAAH... cough coughLets say you only do mining with a GPU only coin. Lets get the scenario set.1. The difficulty will always rise. (Just like BTC and LTC)2. The price rises over time... in theory but has bumps along there way. (Just like BTC and LTC)3. The price also doesn't rise in direct proportion to the diff. (Just like BTC and LTC)You mine with your GPUs.You have 12 of them.You can space currently for 12 more. Any more and you would have to either move your setup or pay for an electrician for more AMPs and better cooling.The diff keeps going up.You keep adding more.You like many other people run out of space and/or power and/or effect way to cool.The diff keeps risingThe diff keeps rising... rising.... risingHow does it keep rising?Two things...1. People keep adopting the coin and they setup there own 12+ cards.2. There are people out there that have there own mini datacenters with 100s of cards. These people have money.. and time.Eventually it becomes more and more unpractical to mine with your GPUs with this coin. You move on to another coin.Eventually the mass majority of miners left on that coin are the ones with piss tons of GPUs. That is not very decentralized.If you say... "Wait the price will go up too. So my 24 card rig would still make money right?". Will it make more money then perhaps a different coin? If you where to shift with others wouldn't that be a sign that your coin isn't stable?But more notably. Diff DOES NOT EFFECT PRICE! Or at least not heavily. Trading amounts and adoption effect price. The more trades normally means the price will rise. BitCoin rose and fell not with its diff (although the diff has rose) the price rose with a massive adoption and interest in the coin, mostly in China. The diff and the price of wattage helps to keep the price from dropping below a certain point. And it also helps to rise the price. But it only a minor effect in comparison to say.. rumors of China changing there policy on crypocurrancy. That can cause price drops... huge ones.Here is an analogy:Say you want to get into the mover business. Its awesome. You can make money on the side and you can use equipment you already own and take care of. Other people catch onto the idea for some spare cash and its really exciting. You have your car to help move stuff and you get paid for it.Well time goes by and more people want to get into it. They see it as a way to make more money. Not just on the side. So they go out and buy a truck. Trucks are much more fuel efficient. You see your car may get twice.. nearly 3 times the fuel economy. But because its a small car you have to make 10 trips. The Truck only 1 thus more efficient. And because you have to take 10 trips the guy with the Truck can get many more jobs before you even get one finished.Before you know it its hard to find even a single job because everyone around now has Trucks. So what do you do? Do you buy a Truck or do you complain that everyone else has one?Well of course you complain that everyone else has a Truck but you do not.But it gets worse. You see there are lots of people out there interested in the mover business now. You are a trend starter! But they look at your car and wonder why? Its more expensive. It may have low upfront cost, but it has low long term returns. It may be a nicer starter point to test the waters so to speak. But it is not a solid long term investment.Because of this the mover business isn't taken seriously and wide adoption isn't excepted. (This is where the analogy really breaks up... but yeah its not perfect) Without being taken seriously the system can never grow beyond a certain point. It can be a great tool to fight the man or the banking system if you are in a 3rd world country. Or Spain whose youth pretty much blame the Banks for being assholes. But thats about it.All you have to do is look at BitCoin to see how awesome ASICs are to the little guy. Right now I can buy an ANT Miner S1 for roughly 400 bucks with shipping included! It will arrive at my doorstep before the end of the week. (I buy from BitMain directly and I always get them in roughly 3 to 4 days later). There current return in investment is about 60 days! You CANNOT do that with GPUs. A new R9 280x from newegg is not going to get you that kinda ROI with almost any coin. And if it does the longer that Coin is around the less the ROI will be for mining it. Rise in diff being faster then the rise in price.If someone wanted to get them selves into mining I would point them in that direction. They are cheap, you can buy them and get them within days. And there ROI is quick. Oh... one more then... you dont have to learn a bunch of crazy computer stuff. No Linux.. no windows... riser cards whats that? I have to short the A1 and B17 pins on a PCI 1x slot.. i didn't even know that was hot swappable! Compile what you say? Or... can you browse the web? Good you can setup a dam Ant Miner S1 none of that other noise. Congrats you are mining. You can put easily 5+ or 10+ in your house without changing a dam thing.ASICs empowers new comers. (Makes it easy by putting into one package)ASICs is cheaper. (400 bucks after shipping is about the same price or only a little more then a R9 280x which doesn't give you as much)ASICs improves centralization by giving everyone the ability to scale there mining operation. And if you are running out of power in your house using ASICs then at that point you are easily making enough money to go Colo.GPUs where not made for mining. They where made for graphics. They demand a lot more power. It is simply better to use a device/tool for what it was meant for. What needs to be focused on is the coin features and technology itself. Not how its "mined" or "minted".Its a noble idea to let people use equipment they already own to help them make more money. But the truth is that most miners and any serious miners are people who are already in one way or another in the techy/nerdy field. You are not empowering the world. Just a bunch of nerdy geeky people... like myself. And that isn't going to change. The daily user of BTC/LTC/X11 shouldn't need to mine. They simply use the currency.Again on my soap box but focus should be on things like BitCoin 2.0. Or new ideas like Poof of Stake or multi-algorithm coins. That try to help deal with some of the possible pitfalls of the current coins. BitCoin is only an idea. And the idea still needs work. That should be the focus.And... I just wasted 30 minutes of my life... *sigh* why internet... why.

regmann



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Full MemberActivity: 126Merit: 100 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork March 31, 2014, 01:35:39 AM #181 asics made for ltc is showing the support for the coin

i myself bought more ltc cus of asic miners ( fpga )



if u or any one changes the algo to be gpu only again i will dump all my ltc



asics will make ltc harder to mine tus price will go up ( take that away and ) no ty



other coins will take over for the gpu users ( gpu,s cost way more power to keep the network secure and stable )

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Hero MemberActivity: 812Merit: 1000 Re: (Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] X11 hardfork at block 564,480 March 31, 2014, 01:40:09 AM #182 Quote from: orcephrye on March 31, 2014, 01:07:01 AM Quote from: kocur on March 31, 2014, 12:08:34 AM Quote from: orcephrye on March 31, 2014, 12:00:27 AM Quote from: kocur on March 30, 2014, 11:41:12 PM

And really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturer

Time to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

And I thing X11 for regular ltc is not good idea. Ltc is fine now, when the price jump up thanks to asics, more X11 alts will come. Thats good for GPUs future. There is new ltc for gpus - HIROAnd really decentralized network is no ASIC network, because no one can buy it "right now" /pre-orders, late delivery etc./ compare with GPUs, and ROI at invest $10,000 is discutable, if you'r not a manufacturerTime to look at PoS coins like communitycoin, I thing big potential coin .)

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.



-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

Kocur. Please explain to me how pre-orders or late deliveries causes coins to become centralized.-- For the sake of niceness... Pretty please

While forgotten gpu miners r still on scrypt, other gets huge hashes for a buck. Its about it...

I mean decentralized network, not coins. And because you dont have any TITAN at this time, but knc yes .)While forgotten gpu miners r still on scrypt, other gets huge hashes for a buck. Its about it...

First I mean coins as in any coin's hashrate at the moment.



I could simply end this argument by pointing you at BitCoin and saying... its decentralized... its completely ASIC. Argument finished. But.. here is a rant if you want.



Knc isn't the only company producing Asics for scrypt. They are also only one company and there production cannot take 51% of the global hashrate for LiteCoin or DogeCoin.. or hell WorldCoin.



Also I ordered asics from GridSeed. And I have them running now. So... although i did experience unexpected delays I do not feel that is because Hashra wants to take 51% of the hashing power to rule the LTC world! MUAHAHAHAHAAH... cough cough



Lets say you only do mining with a GPU only coin. Lets get the scenario set.

1. The difficulty will always rise. (Just like BTC and LTC)

2. The price rises over time... in theory but has bumps along there way. (Just like BTC and LTC)

3. The price also doesn't rise in direct proportion to the diff. (Just like BTC and LTC)



You mine with your GPUs.

You have 12 of them.

You can space currently for 12 more. Any more and you would have to either move your setup or pay for an electrician for more AMPs and better cooling.

The diff keeps going up.

You keep adding more.

You like many other people run out of space and/or power and/or effect way to cool.

The diff keeps rising

The diff keeps rising

... rising.... rising

How does it keep rising?

Two things...

1. People keep adopting the coin and they setup there own 12+ cards.

2. There are people out there that have there own mini datacenters with 100s of cards. These people have money.. and time.

Eventually it becomes more and more unpractical to mine with your GPUs with this coin. You move on to another coin.

Eventually the mass majority of miners left on that coin are the ones with piss tons of GPUs. That is not very decentralized.



If you say... "Wait the price will go up too. So my 24 card rig would still make money right?". Will it make more money then perhaps a different coin? If you where to shift with others wouldn't that be a sign that your coin isn't stable?



But more notably. Diff DOES NOT EFFECT PRICE! Or at least not heavily. Trading amounts and adoption effect price. The more trades normally means the price will rise. BitCoin rose and fell not with its diff (although the diff has rose) the price rose with a massive adoption and interest in the coin, mostly in China. The diff and the price of wattage helps to keep the price from dropping below a certain point. And it also helps to rise the price. But it only a minor effect in comparison to say.. rumors of China changing there policy on crypocurrancy. That can cause price drops... huge ones.





Here is an analogy:

Say you want to get into the mover business. Its awesome. You can make money on the side and you can use equipment you already own and take care of. Other people catch onto the idea for some spare cash and its really exciting. You have your car to help move stuff and you get paid for it.



Well time goes by and more people want to get into it. They see it as a way to make more money. Not just on the side. So they go out and buy a truck. Trucks are much more fuel efficient. You see your car may get twice.. nearly 3 times the fuel economy. But because its a small car you have to make 10 trips. The Truck only 1 thus more efficient. And because you have to take 10 trips the guy with the Truck can get many more jobs before you even get one finished.



Before you know it its hard to find even a single job because everyone around now has Trucks. So what do you do? Do you buy a Truck or do you complain that everyone else has one?



Well of course you complain that everyone else has a Truck but you do not.



But it gets worse. You see there are lots of people out there interested in the mover business now. You are a trend starter! But they look at your car and wonder why? Its more expensive. It may have low upfront cost, but it has low long term returns. It may be a nicer starter point to test the waters so to speak. But it is not a solid long term investment.



Because of this the mover business isn't taken seriously and wide adoption isn't excepted. (This is where the analogy really breaks up... but yeah its not perfect) Without being taken seriously the system can never grow beyond a certain point. It can be a great tool to fight the man or the banking system if you are in a 3rd world country. Or Spain whose youth pretty much blame the Banks for being assholes. But thats about it.







All you have to do is look at BitCoin to see how awesome ASICs are to the little guy. Right now I can buy an ANT Miner S1 for roughly 400 bucks with shipping included! It will arrive at my doorstep before the end of the week. (I buy from BitMain directly and I always get them in roughly 3 to 4 days later). There current return in investment is about 60 days! You CANNOT do that with GPUs. A new R9 280x from newegg is not going to get you that kinda ROI with almost any coin. And if it does the longer that Coin is around the less the ROI will be for mining it. Rise in diff being faster then the rise in price.



If someone wanted to get them selves into mining I would point them in that direction. They are cheap, you can buy them and get them within days. And there ROI is quick. Oh... one more then... you dont have to learn a bunch of crazy computer stuff. No Linux.. no windows... riser cards whats that? I have to short the A1 and B17 pins on a PCI 1x slot.. i didn't even know that was hot swappable! Compile what you say? Or... can you browse the web? Good you can setup a dam Ant Miner S1 none of that other noise. Congrats you are mining. You can put easily 5+ or 10+ in your house without changing a dam thing.



ASICs empowers new comers. (Makes it easy by putting into one package)

ASICs is cheaper. (400 bucks after shipping is about the same price or only a little more then a R9 280x which doesn't give you as much)

ASICs improves centralization by giving everyone the ability to scale there mining operation. And if you are running out of power in your house using ASICs then at that point you are easily making enough money to go Colo.



GPUs where not made for mining. They where made for graphics. They demand a lot more power. It is simply better to use a device/tool for what it was meant for. What needs to be focused on is the coin features and technology itself. Not how its "mined" or "minted".



Its a noble idea to let people use equipment they already own to help them make more money. But the truth is that most miners and any serious miners are people who are already in one way or another in the techy/nerdy field. You are not empowering the world. Just a bunch of nerdy geeky people... like myself. And that isn't going to change. The daily user of BTC/LTC/X11 shouldn't need to mine. They simply use the currency.



Again on my soap box but focus should be on things like BitCoin 2.0. Or new ideas like Poof of Stake or multi-algorithm coins. That try to help deal with some of the possible pitfalls of the current coins. BitCoin is only an idea. A