nkr Profile Blog Joined November 2010 Sweden 5424 Posts #1501 it's not a balance discussion, it's game discussions that sometimes touches on game balance ;p ESPORTS ILLUMINATI

Frosthaze Profile Joined October 2010 94 Posts #1502 Get the mp3 at http://esportpodcasts.st

caznitch Profile Joined July 2012 Canada 645 Posts #1503 On July 30 2014 04:23 Frosthaze wrote:

Get the mp3 at Get the mp3 at http://esportpodcasts.st



Thanks! Just made this afternoon at work tolerable. Thanks! Just made this afternoon at work tolerable. why?

SC2Towelie Profile Joined July 2014 United States 561 Posts #1504 Xenocider is fucking hilarious haha, great show! Contrary to what others have said, I actually find the map discussion really interesting :D Don't forget to bring a towel! (Towelie.635)

Frosthaze Profile Joined October 2010 94 Posts #1505 On July 30 2014 04:30 caznitch wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 30 2014 04:23 Frosthaze wrote:

Get the mp3 at Get the mp3 at http://esportpodcasts.st



Thanks! Just made this afternoon at work tolerable. Thanks! Just made this afternoon at work tolerable.



My pleasure sir!!! :D My pleasure sir!!! :D

Quidios Profile Joined June 2013 Sweden 74 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-30 13:57:03 #1506 To everyone who disliked the mapdiscussion or think it should be shortened; new maps get added 3 times a year.



As a mapdesigner I always like to hear thoughts from the pros, but their perspectives are often narrow and ends up something like "This map is not fun for spectators, has balanceproblems, but I win on it so it's a good map, I like it."

They did touch upon the mappool perspective a few times, but it was very shallow and brief.



About 4 player map scouting I think the players have more influence on the situations than they'd like to admit. In Harstem's example he had obviously only himself to blame, but it's easier to blame the map and randomness. Players don't tailor builds to 4 player maps as much as they did in BW, where you often saw 2 scouting workers for example. I think the reason is that we've only had 2 true 4 player maps in SC2 that have been up to scratch, Whirlwind and Frost.



I'm looking forward to next week's show and new guests.

Hider Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Denmark 8554 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-30 15:12:05 #1507 Harstem's example he had obviously only himself to blame, but it's easier to blame the map and randomness. Players don't tailor builds to 4 player maps as much as they did in BW, where you often saw 2 scouting workers for example.



That misses the point. When you increase the costs required to play safe your still making the game more coinflippy. That misses the point. When you increase the costs required to play safe your still making the game more coinflippy. Innovation was a better player in 2013 than Byun in 2016.

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-30 14:27:01 #1508 On July 30 2014 23:13 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think the reason is that we've only had 2 true 4 player maps in SC2 that have been up to scratch, Whirlwind and Frost.





That misses the point. When you increase the costs required to play safe your still making the game more coinflippy. That misses the point. When you increase the costs required to play safe your still making the game more coinflippy.



Also it makes no sense that people wouldn't change up their build for a map that is not "up to scratch". If they have to play a game on it, it doesn't matter if the map is top notch or just so-so, you are still trying to do what's best. And we definitely didn't suffer from a lack of 4p maps in the past. Some of them were actually quite good for the time they were being played - e.g. Tal'darim Altar or Tempest, as well as spawn-restricted ones like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau.



Harstem's example is just one extreme that can happen. There are much more subtile problems with distances like on Alterzim or if Deathwing was not restricted to 3spawns. E.g. rallying your first overlords is a problem, because even if you additionally drone scout, the rerally takes so long that you do not have the "standard vision" as zerg, in particular against a FFE. From there you have to completely coinflip on the possibility of a 7-8min gateway timing or similar timings, since you don't have standard intell like gas or fast techbuildings. Pretty sure other races have similar problems scouting as well. (thinking of fullwall Terrans with backdoor expansions, that you don't know about as Protoss for a long time) Also it makes no sense that people wouldn't change up their build for a map that is not "up to scratch". If they have to play a game on it, it doesn't matter if the map is top notch or just so-so, you are still trying to do what's best. And we definitely didn't suffer from a lack of 4p maps in the past. Some of them were actually quite good for the time they were being played - e.g. Tal'darim Altar or Tempest, as well as spawn-restricted ones like Entombed Valley or Shakuras Plateau.Harstem's example is just one extreme that can happen. There are much more subtile problems with distances like on Alterzim or if Deathwing was not restricted to 3spawns. E.g. rallying your first overlords is a problem, because even if you additionally drone scout, the rerally takes so long that you do not have the "standard vision" as zerg, in particular against a FFE. From there you have to completely coinflip on the possibility of a 7-8min gateway timing or similar timings, since you don't have standard intell like gas or fast techbuildings. Pretty sure other races have similar problems scouting as well. (thinking of fullwall Terrans with backdoor expansions, that you don't know about as Protoss for a long time)

Quidios Profile Joined June 2013 Sweden 74 Posts #1509 It is still true that the experience on true 4 player maps (not spawn-restricted) have been sparsely and the image of 4 player maps have been damaged by flawed designs. Ofcourse it matters if a map has extra long distances and an inbase natural, especially when scouting.

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #1510 On July 30 2014 23:56 Quidios wrote:

It is still true that the experience on true 4 player maps (not spawn-restricted) have been sparsely and the image of 4 player maps have been damaged by flawed designs. Ofcourse it matters if a map has extra long distances and an inbase natural, especially when scouting.



But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?

For a player:

- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.

For a mapmaker:

- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.



So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.

It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.

And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.

The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with. But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?For a player:- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.For a mapmaker:- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with.

HeeroFX Profile Blog Joined November 2010 United States 2619 Posts #1511 On July 31 2014 00:25 Big J wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 30 2014 23:56 Quidios wrote:

It is still true that the experience on true 4 player maps (not spawn-restricted) have been sparsely and the image of 4 player maps have been damaged by flawed designs. Ofcourse it matters if a map has extra long distances and an inbase natural, especially when scouting.



But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?

For a player:

- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.

For a mapmaker:

- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.



So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.

It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.

And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.

The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with. But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?For a player:- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.For a mapmaker:- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with.





You do make some great points. The only thing about 4 player maps that I like is the fact there is an unknown factor of where people spawned so you it may change how you decide to open the game, which can be interesting. Assuming it isn't forced spawns of course. I do think map makers should keep experimenting with map design. I think it is important to keep trying to innovate and change the rules of maps. Players will always find a way to play their best on the map. You do make some great points. The only thing about 4 player maps that I like is the fact there is an unknown factor of where people spawned so you it may change how you decide to open the game, which can be interesting. Assuming it isn't forced spawns of course. I do think map makers should keep experimenting with map design. I think it is important to keep trying to innovate and change the rules of maps. Players will always find a way to play their best on the map.

Quidios Profile Joined June 2013 Sweden 74 Posts #1512 On July 31 2014 00:25 Big J wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 30 2014 23:56 Quidios wrote:

It is still true that the experience on true 4 player maps (not spawn-restricted) have been sparsely and the image of 4 player maps have been damaged by flawed designs. Ofcourse it matters if a map has extra long distances and an inbase natural, especially when scouting.



But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?

For a player:

- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.

For a mapmaker:

- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.



So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.

It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.

And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.

The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with. But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?For a player:- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.For a mapmaker:- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with.

A true 4 player map is 3 maps in one, requiring you to adapt (or better yet, plan) depending on the spawnlocations, keeping the mapmeta dynamic and produces varying games.

A true 4 player map is 3 maps in one, requiring you to adapt (or better yet, plan) depending on the spawnlocations, keeping the mapmeta dynamic and produces varying games.

Hider Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Denmark 8554 Posts Last Edited: 2014-07-30 16:13:00 #1513 On July 31 2014 00:51 Quidios wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 31 2014 00:25 Big J wrote:

On July 30 2014 23:56 Quidios wrote:

It is still true that the experience on true 4 player maps (not spawn-restricted) have been sparsely and the image of 4 player maps have been damaged by flawed designs. Ofcourse it matters if a map has extra long distances and an inbase natural, especially when scouting.



But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?

For a player:

- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.

For a mapmaker:

- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.



So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.

It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.

And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.

The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with. But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?For a player:- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.For a mapmaker:- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with.

A true 4 player map is 3 maps in one, requiring you to adapt (or better yet, plan) depending on the spawnlocations, keeping the mapmeta dynamic and produces varying games.

A true 4 player map is 3 maps in one, requiring you to adapt (or better yet, plan) depending on the spawnlocations, keeping the mapmeta dynamic and produces varying games.



Keeping a metagame "dynamic" because players need to invest more to be safe which increases the reward of players that choose to cut corners (?) Sry, but that's not the way to go about making the gameplay more "dynamic".



Instead, what you have to look for are maps such as King Sejung Station where the map layout makes different types of tactics available which adds for new micro interactions. Keeping a metagame "dynamic" because players need to invest more to be safe which increases the reward of players that choose to cut corners (?) Sry, but that's not the way to go about making the gameplay more "dynamic".Instead, what you have to look for are maps such as King Sejung Station where the map layout makes different types of tactics available which adds for new micro interactions. Innovation was a better player in 2013 than Byun in 2016.

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #1514 On July 31 2014 01:12 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 31 2014 00:51 Quidios wrote:

On July 31 2014 00:25 Big J wrote:

On July 30 2014 23:56 Quidios wrote:

It is still true that the experience on true 4 player maps (not spawn-restricted) have been sparsely and the image of 4 player maps have been damaged by flawed designs. Ofcourse it matters if a map has extra long distances and an inbase natural, especially when scouting.



But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?

For a player:

- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.

For a mapmaker:

- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.



So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.

It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.

And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.

The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with. But what's the point in making 4p maps? What are the differences?For a player:- the opponent can spawn in 3 positions. You have to scout it. Once scouted (early in the game), it is the same as a 2p map with 16bases.For a mapmaker:- instead of making a spawn area with the required 3-4 bases and then designing extra bases, you make a main area with 3-4bases, put it in far corners so that the rushdistances aren't broken and copy it 4times.So why not just create a 2player map with a lot of bases instead? It doesn't restrict you to designing the later bases so that they are symmetrical to the ones you spawn on --> you can make them better.It doesn't restrict you to balancing rush distances to every corner.And you don't introduce the scouting roulette.The only thing you can't do with a 2p map that a 4p map can, is to have the scouting randomness. Which isn't good for the game to begin with.

A true 4 player map is 3 maps in one, requiring you to adapt (or better yet, plan) depending on the spawnlocations, keeping the mapmeta dynamic and produces varying games.

A true 4 player map is 3 maps in one, requiring you to adapt (or better yet, plan) depending on the spawnlocations, keeping the mapmeta dynamic and produces varying games.



Keeping a metagame "dynamic" because players need to invest more to be safe which increases the reward of players that choose to cut corners (?) Sry, but that's not the way to go about making the gameplay more "dynamic".



Instead, what you have to look for are maps such as King Sejung Station where the map layout makes different types of tactics available which adds for new micro interactions. Keeping a metagame "dynamic" because players need to invest more to be safe which increases the reward of players that choose to cut corners (?) Sry, but that's not the way to go about making the gameplay more "dynamic".Instead, what you have to look for are maps such as King Sejung Station where the map layout makes different types of tactics available which adds for new micro interactions.



I think what he means is that you only make one map and can have 3 different scenarios depending on where you spawn, since horizontal/vertical/diagonal all play differently.

Which imo is a weak argument, since we have more than enough potent mapmakers to make 3maps instead I think what he means is that you only make one map and can have 3 different scenarios depending on where you spawn, since horizontal/vertical/diagonal all play differently.Which imo is a weak argument, since we have more than enough potent mapmakers to make 3maps instead

Artosis Profile Blog Joined June 2004 United States 2114 Posts #1515



3:30pm CEST / 10:30pm KST



Targa, MaNa, and Dayshi will join me!



The channel will once again be New episode this Tuesday!3:30pm CEST / 10:30pm KSTTarga, MaNa, and Dayshi will join me!The channel will once again be www.twitch.tv/scdojosite Commentator http://twitter.com/Artosis

zanga Profile Joined September 2011 658 Posts #1516 Artosis! \o/ <3 (:

Mahtasooma Profile Joined November 2010 Germany 475 Posts #1517

This is ONE mine:



http://www.twitch.tv/fenn3r/c/4807838



The current meta is not to hit the ladder as much.This is ONE mine: http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma

Glorfindel! Profile Joined May 2011 Sweden 1815 Posts #1518

Missing a Terran since Dayishi did not show up - pros asked to join Meta is live!Missing a Terran since Dayishi did not show up - pros asked to join http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/598681/1/Glorfindel/ladder/161337#current-rank

Daswollvieh Profile Blog Joined October 2009 5551 Posts #1519 Get Bunny on the case.

Undead1993 Profile Joined January 2012 Germany 16256 Posts #1520 wtf dayshi T_T



glad meta is back though, the artosis passion SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO

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