“Nobody thinks of drawin’ the distinction between honest graft and dishonest graft,” Plunkitt said. “There’s all the difference in the world between the two.” He had no patience, of course, for dishonest graft—the embezzlement of public funds, the abuse of power for blackmail—which pitted politicians against the interests of the people. But that, he insisted, was the opposite of the honest graft he practiced, which helped guarantee of good government and the smooth functioning of American democracy. A politician who is loyal to his friends, serves the public, and profits from his service as a result? His interests, Plunkitt argued, are perfectly aligned—unlike those of politicians who advance only their own self-interest, or are loyal to lofty ideals, with little regard for others.

Plunkitt wasn’t an abstract political theorist—he was an applied practitioner. He argued that when reformers railed against politicians enriching their friends and family, they fundamentally misunderstood the electorate and its views. “Now, let me tell you that’s never goin’ to hurt Tammany with the people,” he said. “Every good man looks after his friends, and any man who doesn’t isn’t likely to be popular. If I have a good thing to hand out in private life, I give it to a friend—Why shouldn’t I do the same in public life?”

In Trump’s interview with the Times, the president-elect was careful to say, repeatedly, that even though he believes he has the latitude to continue running his businesses, he doesn’t “want there to be a conflict of interest, anyway.” And his aides have downplayed the various reports of his blurring the line between public interest and private business.

But as he meandered, he kept returning to some very Plunkitt-like ideas. Had he encouraged the British politician Nigel Farage and his associates to oppose a wind farm that would ruin the views of his Scottish golf course? “I might have brought it up,” Trump allowed. “But not having to do with me, just I mean, the wind is a very deceiving thing.” Why did he meet with his Indian business partners, and pose for a photo? “Number one, a job like that builds great relationships with the people of India, so it’s all good. But I have to say, the partners come in … they said, ‘Would it be possible to have a picture?’ … So I can say to them … ‘I don’t want to have a picture,’ or, I can take a picture.” Or, as he clarified a little later, “You have to, you know, on a human basis, you take pictures.”

It’s difficult not to form the impression that if Trump is unconcerned with the criticism that he faces conflicts, it’s because he simply doesn’t see these interests as conflicting. If his experience in Scotland convinced him of the dangers of wind farms, wouldn’t it be wrong not to apply that lesson more broadly? If his businesses thrive in India, doesn’t that strengthen his reputation and relationships with a key ally? If he’s polite to his partners, and loyal to his friends, isn’t that what Americans expect of their leaders? Isn’t everyone better off, when the incentives all align?