Ler Profile Joined August 2012 Germany 417 Posts #1



today I want to write about the problems that come along in the 5k+ MMR Range.

I know many people who set their goal to get to 5000 MMR, but there is a sad truth when you reach it and move further to 6000 MMR.



My own goal was to reach 6000 MMR and to be listed on the EU-Leaderboard. While I speak, I sit at comfortable 5,430~ MMR with a peak at 5,550.



Why did I want to get to 6k MMR at the first place?

I had hope for better pubs, I mean, I really had. Higher skill level, advanced tactical behavior - Just better games in general. That applies to some of the games, but in general there is a big problem that ruins many of the top tier games with average MMR of 5,5-5,9k.



The Smurfs

Lets talk about the problem which destroys most of the high level games by default: Smurf Accounts. I really do not know if people played the accounts themselves or just bought 'em on ebay. But there is one thing that share most of 'em: They play really bad. If we assume that a high level game consists of 9 people who deserve to be there and 1 smurf, you already know which team is mostly gonna lose.



The worse Problem: TBD-Accounts

You think smurfs are bad? Well, you have no idea. The worst of the worst are TBD-People aka "to be determined". These people still have to play calibration matches to determine their initial rating. Is that not wonderful? They are in 5,5k-6k~ average MMR games claiming mid every single time. Let us take a look what these people mostly gonna do: They will instant pick Zeus, move to middle, get their level 6 and after that they will spam their Ultimate off-cooldown until the game ends. Nice. And why do they do that? Dota 2 MMR calibration heavily depends on certain values. One of them is the Hero-Damage during a game. Zeus allows to get stellar values without being very good at the game.



Actual Games:

After I talked about the bad stuff, I will give you some proof that these problems are more than real and must be fixed in some way.



TBD Razor (5,5k avrg. MMR game)

TBD PA/TA and Smurf Furion

TBD Troll



These games have been recorded during my session yesterday.



The sad Part

If I would do some statistics how many legit loses happened and how many Smurfs and TBD people caused loses it would be probably 60/40 ratio. That is really really sad in my opinion. Not because I lose games, but more because every high MMR player encounters these problems and nothing is done.



Possible Solutions:

In my opinion there is a good way to address this problem. Limit the initial Calibration value to 5000. Not more, not less. Good players will not have any trouble pushing further while abusers will not get further. This would also help to shut down the Black-Market where accounts with 6-6,5k MMR are traded for high amounts of money.





That is it from my side,



Happy Pubbing





Hello Liquiddota,today I want to write about the problems that come along in the 5k+ MMR Range.I know many people who set their goal to get to 5000 MMR, but there is a sad truth when you reach it and move further to 6000 MMR.My own goal was to reach 6000 MMR and to be listed on the EU-Leaderboard. While I speak, I sit at comfortable 5,430~ MMR with a peak at 5,550.I had hope for better pubs, I mean, I really had. Higher skill level, advanced tactical behavior - Just better games in general. That applies to some of the games, but in general there is a big problem that ruins many of the top tier games with average MMR of 5,5-5,9k.Lets talk about the problem which destroys most of the high level games by default: Smurf Accounts. I really do not know if people played the accounts themselves or just bought 'em on ebay. But there is one thing that share most of 'em: They play really bad. If we assume that a high level game consists of 9 people who deserve to be there and 1 smurf, you already know which team is mostly gonna lose.You think smurfs are bad? Well, you have no idea. The worst of the worst are TBD-People aka "to be determined". These people still have to play calibration matches to determine their initial rating. Is that not wonderful? They are in 5,5k-6k~ average MMR games claiming mid every single time. Let us take a look what these people mostly gonna do: They will instant pick Zeus, move to middle, get their level 6 and after that they will spam their Ultimate off-cooldown until the game ends. Nice. And why do they do that? Dota 2 MMR calibration heavily depends on certain values. One of them is the Hero-Damage during a game. Zeus allows to get stellar values without being very good at the game.After I talked about the bad stuff, I will give you some proof that these problems are more than real and must be fixed in some way.These games have been recorded during my session yesterday.If I would do some statistics how many legit loses happened and how many Smurfs and TBD people caused loses it would be probably 60/40 ratio. That is really really sad in my opinion. Not because I lose games, but more because every high MMR player encounters these problems and nothing is done.In my opinion there is a good way to address this problem. Limit the initial Calibration value to 5000. Not more, not less. Good players will not have any trouble pushing further while abusers will not get further. This would also help to shut down the Black-Market where accounts with 6-6,5k MMR are traded for high amounts of money.That is it from my side,Happy Pubbing Twitter: @Ler_GG | Facebook: lergg | youtube: lerlolgg | Twitch.tv/gg_nore | #ArtOfSupport

ahswtini Profile Joined June 2008 Northern Ireland 16336 Posts #2 So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown? "As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse

TRAP[yoo] Profile Joined December 2009 Hungary 3274 Posts #3 ah that explains all the people who pick zeus. i thought it was something that came along with the patch and the buff to bloodseeker. FTD

Ler Profile Joined August 2012 Germany 417 Posts #4 On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote:

So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown?



Yes. Yes. Twitter: @Ler_GG | Facebook: lergg | youtube: lerlolgg | Twitch.tv/gg_nore | #ArtOfSupport

OceanLab Profile Joined March 2011 France 230 Posts #5 On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote:

So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown?



Yes. Yes.

OH YES IMA SMURF MY WAY TO 6K WITH THIS...and then get stomped every single game. Why do people even do that... OH YES IMA SMURF MY WAY TO 6K WITH THIS...and then get stomped every single game. Why do people even do that... Liquid through and through

ahswtini Profile Joined June 2008 Northern Ireland 16336 Posts #6 On October 03 2014 00:04 OceanLab wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:

On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote:

So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown?



Yes. Yes.

OH YES IMA SMURF MY WAY TO 6K WITH THIS...and then get stomped every single game. Why do people even do that... OH YES IMA SMURF MY WAY TO 6K WITH THIS...and then get stomped every single game. Why do people even do that...

Well for people who see it as a status symbol, they can just calibrate there and then never play ranked again Well for people who see it as a status symbol, they can just calibrate there and then never play ranked again "As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #7 So I guess I should do my placement matches now huh? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Imperator x8x Profile Joined July 2013 United States 56 Posts #8 Well d***, I didn't know that. That's why I got ranked so low initially! I was playing supports!



It also explains why 1k mmr players are so much better at teamwork than the 2k players... If they rain on your parade, parade in the rain.

nojok Profile Joined May 2011 France 9623 Posts #9 I just carried a TBD Zeus mid doing exactly what you mentionned, I hope he won a lot of MMR from this match so I don't have him again on my side. "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - Kuroky - Flap Flap Wings!

75 Profile Joined December 2012 Germany 457 Posts #10 and i thought those zeus players are just stupid as fuck yo twitch, as long as I can watch 480p lagfree I'm happy

Alur Profile Joined March 2008 Denmark 1130 Posts #11 How can you distinguish smurfs from appropriately rated players who are having a bad game? Aditionally I'm surprised that you encounter them so much, based on my experiences I would estimate my ratio to be 90/10, but then again I don't really pay too much attention to this type of thing. AKA No can Dazzle | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlTpX7z3Pok

BongChambers Profile Joined September 2012 Canada 226 Posts #12 I don't know how Dota2 can be such a great game and have such tight balancing and then some idiot is put in-charge of the MMR system and thinks "MORE DAMAGE TO HEROS MEANS MORE SKILL HER DUR" like what about supports? What about the offlaner that carefully farms his blink and then does the perfect initiation stun to win the game for his team? Do they get shit on simply because they didnt do 2k+ total damage to enemy heros in a game?



I've already made 1 smurf account that I wanted to take Dota2 a little more serious on, no abandons, no raging, picking what role my team needed rather then what I wanted to play and in the end I saw my MMR rise a tad above my main account. But now that I see this "pick zeus for 5k mmr" trend that is actually real, I honestly just have to smh at Dota2 and quite frankly care a lot less about the game then I did before. I think what I need to do is just make a 5 man team and forget about MMR in general and play nothing but captains mode. 420

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #13 On October 03 2014 03:05 BongChambers wrote:

I don't know how Dota2 can be such a great game and have such tight balancing and then some idiot is put in-charge of the MMR system and thinks "MORE DAMAGE TO HEROS MEANS MORE SKILL HER DUR" like what about supports? What about the offlaner that carefully farms his blink and then does the perfect initiation stun to win the game for his team? Do they get shit on simply because they didnt do 2k+ total damage to enemy heros in a game?



I've already made 1 smurf account that I wanted to take Dota2 a little more serious on, no abandons, no raging, picking what role my team needed rather then what I wanted to play and in the end I saw my MMR rise a tad above my main account. But now that I see this "pick zeus for 5k mmr" trend that is actually real, I honestly just have to smh at Dota2 and quite frankly care a lot less about the game then I did before. I think what I need to do is just make a 5 man team and forget about MMR in general and play nothing but captains mode.



I think it's just under-developed. The system for CS:GO is slightly more robust. I think it's just under-developed. The system for CS:GO is slightly more robust. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Beirut Profile Joined January 2011 United States 549 Posts #14 Interesting. I guess if Valve knows about this it's just a matter of time before they have some coefficient which adjusts hero damage based on which hero you're playing? I.e. if you have high hero damage and you're playing Zeus, it doesn't mean you're better than your "true" rating, it just means you're playing Zeus and you're expected to have high hero damage.



Do we know for sure this is a thing?





Yurie Profile Joined August 2010 7831 Posts #15 I personally think the Zeus players gaining mmr is based on playing a strong hero more than hero dmg. The hero itself has a very good win rate, so playing it will mean gaining mmr over your normal level (not too high though).

synapse Profile Joined January 2009 China 4966 Posts #16 On October 03 2014 03:23 Beirut wrote:

Interesting. I guess if Valve knows about this it's just a matter of time before they have some coefficient which adjusts hero damage based on which hero you're playing? I.e. if you have high hero damage and you're playing Zeus, it doesn't mean you're better than your "true" rating, it just means you're playing Zeus and you're expected to have high hero damage.



Do we know for sure this is a thing?





I mean, even then, a zeus spamming ult on CD is probably going to do more damage than the average non-retarded zeus. I mean, even then, a zeus spamming ult on CD is probably going to do more damage than the average non-retarded zeus. :)

Jinxed Profile Joined May 2011 United States 4307 Posts #17 On October 03 2014 04:05 Yurie wrote:

I personally think the Zeus players gaining mmr is based on playing a strong hero more than hero dmg. The hero itself has a very good win rate, so playing it will mean gaining mmr over your normal level (not too high though).

No, it's a pretty well known issue at this point and it is affecting a lot of top players. Issue just hit Reddit front page today (or last night). A lot of what I read there matches up with what Ler posted here so it seems to be a real thing.



Funny thing is that I am pretty sure that there are other factors that are considered when trying to detect a smurf so even after they fix this you almost just have to wonder what will come up next. No, it's a pretty well known issue at this point and it is affecting a lot of top players. Issue just hit Reddit front page today (or last night). A lot of what I read there matches up with what Ler posted here so it seems to be a real thing.Funny thing is that I am pretty sure that there are other factors that are considered when trying to detect a smurf so even after they fix this you almost just have to wonder what will come up next. Moderator "LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul

CorsairHero Profile Joined December 2008 Canada 7310 Posts #18 didn't realize ler is a blue poster © Current year.

deadmau Profile Joined September 2010 320 Posts #19 I tried to tell people, don't pay too much attention too MMR, in it's current state it has limitations as a determination of skill. It is what it is. It's just a system of calibrating, then winning enough games from there to get your goal mmr (4k/5k/6k/etc). There are smurfs, mmr abusers, draft abusers, hero abusers...all sorts, doesn't mean high MMR's are meaningless, just means that you're gonna have bad players all over.

theaxis12 Profile Joined March 2011 United States 194 Posts #20 Ranked games are shit all crybabies and abusers. I went back to RD and AR because it took the fun out of the game. Shut your mouth and put your head back in the clouds.

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