The idiosyncrasy of an individual is not to be understood as any strangeness in his substance or in his components, but rather as a unique combination, or gradual differentiation, of functions and faculties which in themselves are universal. Every human face has a nose, two eyes, etc., but these universal factors are variable, and it is this variability which makes individual peculiarities possible. Individuation, therefore, can only mean a process of psychological development that fulfills the individual qualities given; in other words, it is a process by which a man becomes the definite, unique being that he in fact is. - C.G. Jung 1

I met Katharine Downing Myers in November 1998 at a Workshop sponsored by the Delaware Valley Chapter of Association of Psychological Type (APT). Over 100 people from as far away as Maine and North Dakota gathered to hear Otto Kroeger, president-elect of the APT, speak on MBTI Type in Organizations. I introduced myself to Kathy at lunch time, gave her my card, and said that I was bringing knowledge of the eight Jungian function-attitudes to the public using an Enneagram of Consciousness. I invited her to check the EMBTI web-site address on my colorful card. Kathy welcomed me with open arms, and showed her great generosity of spirit. She invited me to join two friends and herself for lunch. She was mentoring her friends in their project to apply MBTI with people striving to break away from welfare dependency.

I inquired if she would be willing to be interviewed for an article for the Enneagram and the MBTI® on-line Internet Journal. She agreed without any hesitation whatsoever, and offered to meet me in December. We finally got together in mid January. This worked out well because it allowed us to exchange email and explore topics for the interview.

During email exchanges, I mentioned my decision to approach the study of Enneagram Personality Types from the perspective of each Enneagram Point's Differing Gift, as Isabel Briggs Myers had done with the MBTI. I had been successful for three reasons. First, Don Riso had successfully applied Jungian Type to enneagram points. Second, MBTI definitions had allowed me to check the accuracy of Jungian definitions. Third, the RHETI and MBTI Form G gave mutually supporting information for healthy exemplars. I was quick to mention that I was interested in her ideas and experiences with MBTI and Jungian psychology for the interview.

I was very grateful for her interview with Isabel Briggs Myers in the 1993 APT Bulletin. 2 It gave me much insight into Isabel's holistic view on the individuation process, and how the four Jungian functions in their two attitudes can be used by a real person. Kathy was glad her article had been so helpful, and was happy to share her MBTI story with me in her home. Kathy said she was familiar with the enneagram, but it was not her field of expertise.

I mailed sample articles posted at the EMBTI web-site by John Fudjack and myself, a copy of Don Riso's "Discovering Your Personality Types - The New Enneagram Questionnaire", and a copy of the latest Riso-Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator (RHETI 2.5). 3

The Interview - Topic One - The MBTI and the Enneagram.

Kathy recalled her experience with enneagram workshops. She studied the enneagram with progressive Catholic nuns, and remembered the story of enneagram origins, the Jesuits, and the lawsuit. The nuns talked about similarities with Jung, MBTI, and the enneagram, and said the enneagram went into the Shadow side. Kathy went to two or three workshops, and wondered if she could use both systems.

Kathy summarized her impressions: "They are two different systems although there are similarities. The Enneagram seems to start with the 'shadow' side while the MBTI focuses on Jung's theory of psychological type, his explanation of the development of consciousness. Jung's terms for this process is Individuation, the life-long movement towards balance and wholeness which Jung describes in your introductory quote. I realized that working in depth with psychological type leads to Individuation and thus includes the integration of the shadow. I decided that to introduce two systems, each one complex, to workshop participants would be overwhelming. Best I stick to working with one thoroughly! I'll leave it up to you and your colleagues to accept the challenge of finding the connections as your contribution to our understanding of human personality and growth!" 4

Kathy recommended 'The Way of Individuation' by Jungian analyst Jolande Jacobi as a good reference on Individuation.

Walter: "I have a book by Mario Jacoby on Individuation and Narcissism on my shelf. Now I am motivated to read it in more detail." [Jung used the word "ego" in a completely different sense than Freud. Enneagram personality type theory originated with an emphasis on the unconscious vice or compulsion for each of the nine types. This is a stunning contrast with the "Differing Gifts" of conscious Jungian functions popularized by Katharine Cook Briggs and Isabel Briggs Myers. Don Riso used Jungian type concepts, and I built on his work.]

Topic Two -The new MBTI Form M

Walter: "What were the goals of the new MBTI Form M?"

Kathy: "The primary goal was to improve the accuracy of the MBTI in indicating the respondent's preference type especially around the mid-point. We explored recent developments in psychometric procedures and checked out the most promising against our current scoring procedure in extensive studies. We are very pleased with the success of this work."

"We had three main goals for the new manual. We worked to get an even greater Jungian framework, to put things in terms of whole type, and to be very clear that MBTI 'type' psychology is different from a 'trait' psychology."

Topic Three - The Early MBTI Days

Walter: "How did you get to know Isabel Briggs Myers?"

Kathy: "We all lived in the small college town called Swathmore. Peter and I were both 7th grade students in the same middle school. Peter introduced me to his family and it became a second home. Isabel started the Indicator in 1942 just after Pearl Harbor. She had found her mission. Katharine and Isabel were each a creative genius. They had an extraordinary ability to focus their attention and tune out distractions. Isabel sat in her chair with her MBTI work early in the morning, and she would still be there late at night. You talked about the MBTI whenever you visited their house. Peter and I were married in 1973, and we worked more closely with Isabel from 1974 onward. We were her apprentices. The cancer returned in 1977, so Peter and I spent our weekends with her helping with her work until she died in 1980."

"Both Katharine and Isabel were blessed with very supportive husbands. Their husbands loved their wives, and gave emotional support so they could follow their calling. Chief (Clarence Gates Myers) cleaned and scrubbed the floors. Chief was an ISTJ for whom clean floors were important, so he followed his own interest. Isabel Briggs Myers was an INFP for whom clean floors were low on the priority list. Katharine Cook Briggs was an INFJ. She had that original creative genius that is so rare."

For the full story about the origins of the MBTI Kathy recommended 'Katharine and Isabel, Mother's Light, Daughter's Journey - The Story of the Making of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator'. 5

Walter: "INFJs are almost as rare as hen's teeth according to the latest MBTI Manual. The National Normative Sample of Adults shows INFJs are represented by 1.5 percent of the sample population." 6

Topic Four - The J-P MBTI Scale

Walter: "Jung spoke about three of the MBTI dichotomies: extraversion E-I, perception S-N, and judgment T-F. Why did Isabel see the need of the J-P scale?"

"You need it to tell which of the two indicated functions is dominant. That is the purpose. The J-P preference tells you how a person behaves in the outer world. 'J' tells us that the Judging preference, either extraverted thinking or extraverted feeling is used in the outer world; 'P' tells us that the Perceiving preference, either extraverted sensing or extraverted intuition is used in the outer world. Since we use our dominant in our preferred world the J-P points directly to the dominant for the person whose preference is for the outer world of extraversion. For a 'J' either thinking or feeling is indicated in the third letter of the code; for a 'P' either sensing or intuition is indicated in the second letter of the code. For the person who has a preference for introversion, the J-P points directly to the auxiliary as the introvert saves the dominant for use primarily in the inner world and uses the auxiliary in the outer world. Thus ENFPs use their dominant extraverted intuition in the outer world and their auxiliary introverted feeling in the inner world; the INFPs use the auxiliary extraverted intuition in the outer world saving the dominant introverted feeling for the preferred inner world of introversion. Both types prefer intuition and feeling and use them primarily in the same attitude of extraversion and introversion, however the dominant and auxiliary are reversed. This explains why these two types often feel a kindredness to each other.

Walter: "You quote Isabel in your 1993 article as saying the auxiliary function is present with BOTH attitudes, but the auxiliary needs an attitude opposite to the main function for balance and stability. The new MBTI Manual repeats this. This is a very important principle for understanding type dynamics. It shows great insight by Isabel. I had not appreciated it fully until the past year."

Kathy: "I would look at your reference in the Manual, but I can say this. Each of the 16 MBTI Types is a whole type, and has within it all eight Jungian functions. There has been a tendency to over-simply MBTI theory in the past, and this has created wrong impressions. There have always been eight functions from the very beginning. Isabel defined them in Gifts Differing 7 . Of course they are not of equal importance for a particular person. The MBTI theory predicts a unique direction of type development for each of the 16 types."

I did not take time to find the reference during our interview. Kathy gently reminded me several times that each MBTI type contains all eight functions. The MBTI Manual reference states: "Extraverts who habitually extravert both their dominant and auxiliary functions will place so much reliance on the outer world that they will not be in touch with their inner perception or judgment. For example, according to the theory of type dynamics an ENFP extraverts dominant Intuition and introverts auxiliary Feeling. If he extraverts both dominant Intuition and auxiliary Feeling, he may have little ability to judge himself and others from the standpoint of his own inner values". 8

Research published at the EMBTI in 1998 shows that Enneagram Personality Types habitually use connecting arrows with the same Jungian attitude on each end. Moving in the direction of these arrows with the same attitudes (7-1, 1-4, 8-5, 9-6) can model the 'direction of disintegration.' This is a remarkable confirmation of Isabel's insight that Jungian function pairs with the same attitude are potentially less stable than others.

I have made use of Isabel's insights for a 'process' model of consciousness. MBTI type is a structural model of functions arranged in a hierarchy of importance for that type. The MBTI structural model of Jungian "mental tools" is a layered view of how type is constructed. The process view is different from the structure view.

Kathy offers this clarification: "I don't think Isabel's comments intended to focus on the importance of developing both attitudes of the auxiliary. I think she meant to point out that in some cases the auxiliary is pulled into the opposite attitude from the theoretical one and may cause imbalance. She gave an example of one of the reasons why our development may not fit the theoretical model, and even allowed for other models such as the one proposed by most Jungians. She certainly believed that each of us uses each function in both attitudes and that our goal is to use each one in the right place at the right time in the service of the dominant or at least to increase our skills towards doing so. Her focus, and mine, is to work with each person to explore the way life experience has actually caused us to develop as an interaction between our innate preferences and our environment. A useful tool is assessing where we are and where we would like to go. This process is what gives us each a unique personality - it is useful to recognize our basic pattern but that is in no way all of us. Your focus is on finding theoretical connections - if we look at each person as to how his innate preferences have played out during the course of his lifetime, we will probably find an unique pattern for each one."

Topic Five - Over-Extraverted Behavior

Kathy mentioned the ENFP could show over-extraverted behavior if both functions were extraverted (EN and EF), and if the auxiliary introverted feeling function was not present to support EN with good inner judgment.

Walter: "Is Bill Clinton an example of an ENFP type?"

Kathy: "Some have said that."

Jungian oriented Lenore Thompson types Bill Clinton as ENFP in her book "Personality Type: An Owners Manual". 9 This is consistent with Don Riso's assignment of Enneagram Type Three (The Achiever, or The Motivator) with a Two Wing (Helper) for Bill Clinton (3w2 The Star). 10 EN and EF are dominant at Points Four and Two on the Geldart Enneagram of Consciousness. 11 Point Three has the very adaptable extraverted moving function/Persona combination. Moving function EM is centered in the middle of the Heart Triad with Points Four and Two as potentially active wings on either side to support its goals. It is difficult to discern the difference between EN and EM, because moving is a fifth psycho-motor function that carries energy to/from the four psychological functions. Point Three's psychological Persona role is very distinctive.

Topic Six - The Eight Jungian Functions

Walter: "Could you comment on John Beebe's work on the eight Jungian function?"

Kathy: "Jungian analyst John Beebe is one of the handful of people doing research on the eight functions. Research of this type is important. I have his tapes. Henry Thompson uses the term function-attitude for the eight processes." 12

Walter: "I studied Isabel's four pages on the eight processes in Gifts Differing. Henry Thompson's treatment of eight Jungian function-attitudes is helpful. John Beebe's approach is published in Anne Singer Harris's book "Living With Paradox". 13 Beebe's concept of dichotomous spines and arms is very helpful. I use Beebe's spine and arm concept for describing the Jungian foundation of the Geldart Enneagram of Consciousness. Eight of the nine Enneagram Personality Types are actually a Jungian Type, so the word spine describes each point very well. Beebe gets around the tongue twister "function-attitude" with his term "personality function. The first Quadrant of Personality on the Persona side has the first four personality functions, and the second Quadrant of Personality on the Shadow side has the next four personality functions. All eight personality functions are named."

Kathy: "The suggested guidelines for wording in the Manual was the product of much discussion among the team working on the Manual."

"I'm still working for the best term for this group of functions combined with the two attitudes and would welcome any suggestions you might have. When Linda Kirby and I were writing "Introduction to Type Dynamics and Development" we struggled with this and finally settled for reserving 'function' for the four functions described by Jung and used 'mental tools or processes' for the group of eight."

"When the growth in the use of the MBTI climbed so dramatically and with it a growth in group rather than individual-to-individual feed-back, we were faced with the problem of getting across a very complex theory in a manner that kept the integrity of the theory but did not overwhelm the participants. We followed the model used by Isabel Myers which focused on the four preferences she had developed for the MBTI . As we became more skillful in our feedback methods we were able to move more quickly into the hierarchy of functions, dynamics and type development."

"I along with others found that in not introducing the eight mental tools sooner, people were thinking of the four preferences as additive rather than interactive and not seeing the connection between the functions and attitudes. This meant that they had to unlearn in order to move into the deeper and rich levels of understanding. Isabel Myers understood all the dynamics interactions and the developmental process as discussed in her work, but we were not adequately conveying this knowledge. To me, this is one of the next steps in opening the door to richer use and better understanding. Much progress towards this goal has already been made and it continues to be 'work in process'".

Topic Seven - Determining True MBTI Type

Walter: "Now I have some questions about determining a person's MBTI type. Under what conditions will a person not report their True MBTI type?"

Kathy: "People can answer questions on the Indicator according to the way they would like to be, or the way they should be. This will give wrong results. People may also find that they must use their less preferred functions just for survival, and report that out on the questionnaire. People might shift their energy unconsciously to a less preferred function during development. A person who is clear in their preferences will consistently report it out. Others can be more influenced by context, such as home or work.

When I give the MBTI instrument, I advise people to answer as if they were in a place with no external pressures. No pressure to please your boss, or your spouse - just to be who you are. I say whatever is necessary to make the person feel comfortable, so they can report who they are. I never define words or give clues on the questionnaire, because this could bias test results."

Walter: "How can you be sure that True MBTI Type is measured in the process?"

Kathy: "We can't be sure! It is all a hypothesis! We reach a point with the test data, but verification of whole type is essential. We must continue with type descriptors and questions until the person feels comfortable, and the counselor feels comfortable."

"You need to give a person permission to NOT know their type exactly. The person may be comfortable with IN-P, but be unsure with T or F. That's OK!"

"The MBTI model is a hypothesis. It is not a rigid model. On the contrary, it has great respect for the individual. Yet it is remarkable how well the hypothesis of type works for so many people. It is a testament to Isabel's great insight."

Topic Eight - Working With the Third and Fourth Functions

Walter: "Your Type is INFP with an F-N-S-T theoretical development order for Jungian functions. What can you say about your ST functions that are subordinate to your FN functions?"

Kathy: "Extraverted thinking is my 4th function. My education and life experience has demanded fairly decent development of that function for specialized uses, but it is still the function that gets me into trouble when I am 'in the grip'. Extraverted sensing is my least developed function (I think it is the unusual strength of my dominant introverted feeling that pulls me into that with such intensity that awareness of the external world disappears.); however, as I remind my workshop participants, "I must have developed some use of it or I would have been run over by a truck years ago."

Walter: "Extraverted sensation gives you the five senses, and the ability to see and hear trucks. How are you on your introverted sensation, especially your background sense of body energy. What do you feel when a truck sounds a horn suddenly - just before it misses you, as you jump out of the way in the nick of time?"

Kathy: "I feel fright! That's why yoga is so good for me. It helps me to get in touch with my body. I used to use metaphors when my doctor asked me about my body state. I am getting much better at reporting the way it is. I am aware of my energy level when I wake up in the morning. Of course my energy level was higher when I was much younger."

It strikes me that Kathy is quite an exemplar for a whole individual who has balance on the four dichotomous MBTI scales. Kathy shows a remarkable agility of mind and intentional action. I'm reminded of Marie Louise Von Franz's description of the end result of the Individuation process. One is able to pick up the functions and freely use them just as they are needed without compulsion - "The ego dwells, as it were, in the awareness of its own reality outside the functional system". 14

Topic Nine - MBTI in the 21st Century

Walter: "What do you see for the MBTI in the 21st century that soon will be upon us?"

Kathy: "Peter and I would like to see sound development and research of the MBTI instrument and the theory of psychological type. We would like to guard against superficial use and misuse of both. Individuals get very little from a superficial presentation and then think, 'I have done the MBTI' going away missing the richness of what Jungian psychological type has to offer. The MBTI has experienced such phenomenal growth that there is an increased danger of being used superficially. We need to maintain a critical mass of people dedicated to the integrity of the system and the inspiring vision of Carl Jung, Katharine Briggs and Isabel Myers. Otherwise the MBTI will be a fad and something valuable will be lost."

Then with a smile on her face, light in her eyes, and passion in her voice, Kathy concluded with -

"One thing is important! When I see INFP, I don't just see four letters. First, the four letters are there with their meaning. Second, the interactions among the letters are there - and this reflects energy movements. Third, there is a hierarchy of functions and their probable development. Fourth, there is a probable life long pattern of type development. Finally, each plays out in an individual way with the environment. As Naomi Quenk has said: I'm never bored with it."

Concluding Remarks

I thanked Kathy for her generous gift of time and presence. Her past work was very important to me, her interview was a rare opportunity. I said that I was grateful for being able to stand on the shoulders of many giants to see ahead. Their work supported my work on the eight Jungian personality functions, plus the moving function on the Enneagram of Consciousness. Kathy thought about "standing on the shoulders" of others, and recalled it came from Heraclitus. She would enjoy studying the history of ideas, she said. As I left, Katharine Downing Myers words were "Keep in touch, Keep in touch". I will.

I close this article with this statement from Katharine Downing Myers and Peter Briggs Myers in the 1998 MBTI Manual, Third Edition.