MorroW Profile Joined August 2008 Sweden 3522 Posts #1



If you're interested in David Kims post you can find it here:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18705072378



This of course has a lot of reasons to it and I wanted to talk about this and why I think Protoss is taking major leaps forward in terms of design in that aspect.



So there's a lot of fuss going on right now about the macro mechanics of Starcraft 2, whether or not it should stay in the game. Well, I don't really want to talk about that here. Instead I want to talk about the implications they have upon Protoss along with other changes that has happened so far in Legacy. So keep in mind that this is all assuming that the new changes with the warp gate, chrono boost, mule etc stays in the game.





With that said - here's my top five list (not in order), enjoy!



1: MULE Removed



Terran will no longer think holding onto 50 energy as money they are missing out from a mule, rather it's 50 energy that can be spent to gain 8 supply (from supply drop). But in early game since command centers already give so much supply most of the time you'll find yourself not needing to actually burn this kind of energy immediately like you would with a mule.

Another way to approach it is to say the straight up "cost" from a scan has gone from about 270 minerals to 100 (disregarding mining time lost)

What this means is that Dark Templar rushes in general does not make as much sense anymore. The odds of this "cheap" strategy working should go down by a notable margin.



Keep in mind however that Terrans right now don't rush orbital commands as soon as the barracks is done like they used to because it takes a longer time for the orbital to pay for itself compared to before. Anyway how the actual build orders will look for Terran when they will get their orbitals I can't really say right now.



2: Chrono Boost removed



I also talked about this in my previous post in the macro mechanics topic but I'll try to not sound too repetitive. Chrono boost has pretty much always been the back bone of every single Protoss all in or timings in general. Without chrono boost the possibilities of Protoss go down. The ability to just shove all your energy down one direction is mostly what has enabled Protoss to push their "cheese" to the limits.

To be more concrete, a Protoss that is allinning will not be able to squeeze out warp tech quicker than a Protoss who is playing macro game for example.

The "five different blink timings" that you had to consider will now be maybe only a couple.

Suddenly as a Terran or as a Zerg you pretty much have an easier time deducting what the Protoss is doing. Not only are their timings weaker in itself through chrono boost removal - but having fewer options to begin with makes the choices you have left weaker as well (this is a big deal).



3: The new Warp Tech



This is something David Kim himself stated to be one of the biggest - if not the biggest reason to why Protoss shouldn't feel so "dirty" anymore and I can echo that.



I used to be a Zerg player myself and back in the day it was considered very gimmicky to lose to gateway allins and the reason why they were seen as so gimmicky was not because it was an all in that we needed to scout their main base for with an overlord. It was seen as gimmicky because it boiled down to the game of "hide and seek" with the god damn probe and pylon that we HAD to find with our 2-4 zerglings or we would just randomly lose to this stuff.

Of course it's 2015 now and it's not really considered gimmicky anymore to do a four gate timing on Zergs third while hes droning up because these days you can somewhat reliably get this pylon up with the help of your mothership core and singular gateway units.



Apply this thought-process to warp prisms versus hidden pylons and it's not really as "cheesy" anymore. It's definitely not gimmicky because a lot of the randomness is removed from the fact that the warp prism will come across the map from the Protoss base at a pre-determined time-stamp in the game rather than being a game of "hide-and-seek". Looking at the game as it is right now in Legacy you will most likely be using warp prisms for most (if not all) your attacks.



So you could say that warp gate mechanic is perhaps not very gimmicky but it is a big contributor to why these kind of shenanigans can work in the first place. Increasing it's risk tenfold (by double damage and 16 second warp-in) will perhaps not end the days of hidden pylons on the map (or your main) but it will severely decrease the amount of times you lose randomly because you missed an inch of the map with your scout.



A simple rule of thumb as a Protoss is whenever you feel that you need to "hide" a Pylon to prepare an attack is a pretty good indicator of what you're doing is pretty nasty.



4: Ravager



Let me paint you a picture of the most gimmicky ways you can ever lose a game of Starcraft 2. Everything is looking good, you're hitting your injects, good map vision, economy advantage and you're massing a bunch of roaches and feel confident that you will beat this Protoss opponent of yours. Suddenly out of the blue you notice your natural ramp has been force fielded and a warp prism starts warping in units like crazy. GG get out.

So what most players would tell you here is that you did a mistake, you forgot to cover your main ramp with an overlord to spot a possible warp prism coming in. You could have been a lot better than your opponent at this game but it doesn't really matter if you don't remember to cover up these basics. This along with dark templars, along with finding that "one" pylon on the map and all this other kind of stuff just adds to the "to-do list" against any given Protoss player. You don't feel outplayed, in fact you feel that your opponent cheated you of your win and that's what I'm trying to get at here. These are the "gimmicky ways to randomly die to Protoss" that I'm glad we're moving away from in Legacy.

Ravager is a huge tool for Zerg, one of my favorite add-ons to the game. Finally a way to actually deal with force fields.



5: 12 Worker Start



I'm not sure if I should call proxy gates or proxy raxes gimmicky, at least I can say with confidence that it is cheesy as hell. Legacy in general is pretty much putting a stop to the dreaded 6 pools, 2rax and proxy gates because you start with more workers (simple and effective). I'm sure there will pop up similar strategies to this (just the other day I was three gate adepted with two of the gates proxied) but in general these kind of strategies will probably not ever be as potent as they have been in the past five years.







So there you go guys, that's my top 5 list of why Protoss doesn't feel as cheesy anymore. David Kim mentioned stuff like "proxy banshees" in his post which has not actually been a real strategy since 2010. Protoss still has their whole tech tree in disposal to proxy and call it a somewhat viable cheese. Regardless if Protoss stays the most "cheesy" race or the race with most build orders at their disposal I think this race has taken major leaps into becoming a well designed race.



Just in general I think people don't really realize how volatile or "rng" based Starcraft is or can become just by adding maps like Bridgehead or what-have-you map to the map pool or adding new units, early game strategies. David Kim talks about these new things but he also says that they need to be able to be scouted. We don't want a game where everyone goes same build every game because "everything else sucks" but at the same time we need to keep in mind that any new or changed variable can easily turn the game for the worse. Protoss has always been the "wild card" in any match-up and I think its healthy for the game that if you want to be - you can be a "wild card" with the other races or stray away from it for the most part with Protoss. Watching casters talk about Protoss and Protoss only for the first 8 minutes of the game gets old quickly, it's simply too lop-sided so its nice to see them evening it out a bit in Legacy.



Through out my days of Starcraft 2 I've talked to a lot of Protoss players and most of them never played by the odds more than respective players from the other races because they wanted to or because it was their style. They did it because their race forced them into doing so. There are so many Protosses out there that looked for consistency in their builds but when crunch time came around they often found themselves playing the gamblers game more than they had originally wanted. These are the kind of players - players like Rain (notorious for predictable play) that will probably find more success in an environment like this and I think that is great.



The more build orders and options a race has the more coin flippy the players of said race has to play (sorry if I sound repetitive). Blizzard has to push Protoss to a 50% winratio and if you don't have as many options or "curve-balls" to throw at your opponent the less you will win and naturally your race will be buffed accordingly.



Lastly I don't want to leave on a bad notion here saying that Protoss is the devil or something like that. The other races has tons of cheeses and tricks up their sleeves, even more so than HotS. But hopefully I got the message across to why I think Protoss is heading in the right direction in Legacy. After a lot of thought I think the removal of chrono boost is a good thing for the race and I hope that you guys think so as well.



I welcome this new "Protoss". Throughout the entirety of Starcraft 2 Protoss has always been the most gimmicky/cheesy race in the game. Not until I read the latest post from David Kim did I really think about this topic too much, I guess the years have gone by and Protoss being a pretty silly race as a whole have just been something that I've accepted and not really thought about as much anymore.If you're interested in David Kims post you can find it here:This of course has a lot of reasons to it and I wanted to talk about this and why I think Protoss is taking major leaps forward in terms of design in that aspect.So there's a lot of fuss going on right now about the macro mechanics of Starcraft 2, whether or not it should stay in the game. Well, I don't really want to talk about that here. Instead I want to talk about the implications they have upon Protoss along with other changes that has happened so far in Legacy. So keep in mind that this is all assuming that the new changes with the warp gate, chrono boost, mule etc stays in the game.With that said - here's my top five list (not in order), enjoy!Terran will no longer think holding onto 50 energy as money they are missing out from a mule, rather it's 50 energy that can be spent to gain 8 supply (from supply drop). But in early game since command centers already give so much supply most of the time you'll find yourself not needing to actually burn this kind of energy immediately like you would with a mule.Another way to approach it is to say the straight up "cost" from a scan has gone from about 270 minerals to 100 (disregarding mining time lost)What this means is that Dark Templar rushes in general does not make as much sense anymore. The odds of this "cheap" strategy working should go down by a notable margin.I also talked about this in my previous post in the macro mechanics topic but I'll try to not sound too repetitive. Chrono boost has pretty much always been the back bone of every single Protoss all in or timings in general. Without chrono boost the possibilities of Protoss go down. The ability to just shove all your energy down one direction is mostly what has enabled Protoss to push their "cheese" to the limits.To be more concrete, a Protoss that is allinning will not be able to squeeze out warp tech quicker than a Protoss who is playing macro game for example.The "five different blink timings" that you had to consider will now be maybe only a couple.Suddenly as a Terran or as a Zerg you pretty much have an easier time deducting what the Protoss is doing. Not only are their timings weaker in itself through chrono boost removal - but having fewer options to begin with makes the choices you have left weaker as well (this is a big deal).This is something David Kim himself stated to be one of the biggest - if not the biggest reason to why Protoss shouldn't feel so "dirty" anymore and I can echo that.I used to be a Zerg player myself and back in the day it was considered very gimmicky to lose to gateway allins and the reason why they were seen as so gimmicky was not because it was an all in that we needed to scout their main base for with an overlord. It was seen as gimmicky because it boiled down to the game of "hide and seek" with the god damn probe and pylon that we HAD to find with our 2-4 zerglings or we would just randomly lose to this stuff.Of course it's 2015 now and it's not really considered gimmicky anymore to do a four gate timing on Zergs third while hes droning up because these days you can somewhat reliably get this pylon up with the help of your mothership core and singular gateway units.Apply this thought-process to warp prisms versus hidden pylons and it's not really as "cheesy" anymore. It's definitely not gimmicky because a lot of the randomness is removed from the fact that the warp prism will come across the map from the Protoss base at a pre-determined time-stamp in the game rather than being a game of "hide-and-seek". Looking at the game as it is right now in Legacy you will most likely be using warp prisms for most (if not all) your attacks.So you could say that warp gate mechanic is perhaps not very gimmicky but it is a big contributor to why these kind of shenanigans can work in the first place. Increasing it's risk tenfold (by double damage and 16 second warp-in) will perhaps not end the days of hidden pylons on the map (or your main) but it will severely decrease the amount of times you lose randomly because you missed an inch of the map with your scout.A simple rule of thumb as a Protoss is whenever you feel that you need to "hide" a Pylon to prepare an attack is a pretty good indicator of what you're doing is pretty nasty.Let me paint you a picture of the most gimmicky ways you can ever lose a game of Starcraft 2. Everything is looking good, you're hitting your injects, good map vision, economy advantage and you're massing a bunch of roaches and feel confident that you will beat this Protoss opponent of yours. Suddenly out of the blue you notice your natural ramp has been force fielded and a warp prism starts warping in units like crazy. GG get out.So what most players would tell you here is that you did a mistake, you forgot to cover your main ramp with an overlord to spot a possible warp prism coming in. You could have been a lot better than your opponent at this game but it doesn't really matter if you don't remember to cover up these basics. This along with dark templars, along with finding that "one" pylon on the map and all this other kind of stuff just adds to the "to-do list" against any given Protoss player. You don't feel outplayed, in fact you feel that your opponent cheated you of your win and that's what I'm trying to get at here. These are the "gimmicky ways to randomly die to Protoss" that I'm glad we're moving away from in Legacy.Ravager is a huge tool for Zerg, one of my favorite add-ons to the game. Finally a way to actually deal with force fields.I'm not sure if I should call proxy gates or proxy raxes gimmicky, at least I can say with confidence that it is cheesy as hell. Legacy in general is pretty much putting a stop to the dreaded 6 pools, 2rax and proxy gates because you start with more workers (simple and effective). I'm sure there will pop up similar strategies to this (just the other day I was three gate adepted with two of the gates proxied) but in general these kind of strategies will probably not ever be as potent as they have been in the past five years.So there you go guys, that's my top 5 list of why Protoss doesn't feel as cheesy anymore. David Kim mentioned stuff like "proxy banshees" in his post which has not actually been a real strategy since 2010. Protoss still has their whole tech tree in disposal to proxy and call it a somewhat viable cheese. Regardless if Protoss stays the most "cheesy" race or the race with most build orders at their disposal I think this race has taken major leaps into becoming a well designed race.Just in general I think people don't really realize how volatile or "rng" based Starcraft is or can become just by adding maps like Bridgehead or what-have-you map to the map pool or adding new units, early game strategies. David Kim talks about these new things but he also says that they need to be able to be scouted. We don't want a game where everyone goes same build every game because "everything else sucks" but at the same time we need to keep in mind that any new or changed variable can easily turn the game for the worse. Protoss has always been the "wild card" in any match-up and I think its healthy for the game that if you want to be - you can be a "wild card" with the other races or stray away from it for the most part with Protoss. Watching casters talk about Protoss and Protoss only for the first 8 minutes of the game gets old quickly, it's simply too lop-sided so its nice to see them evening it out a bit in Legacy.Through out my days of Starcraft 2 I've talked to a lot of Protoss players and most of them never played by the odds more than respective players from the other races because they wanted to or because it was their style. They did it because their race forced them into doing so. There are so many Protosses out there that looked for consistency in their builds but when crunch time came around they often found themselves playing the gamblers game more than they had originally wanted. These are the kind of players - players like Rain (notorious for predictable play) that will probably find more success in an environment like this and I think that is great.The more build orders and options a race has the more coin flippy the players of said race has to play (sorry if I sound repetitive). Blizzard has to push Protoss to a 50% winratio and if you don't have as many options or "curve-balls" to throw at your opponent the less you will win and naturally your race will be buffed accordingly.Lastly I don't want to leave on a bad notion here saying that Protoss is the devil or something like that. The other races has tons of cheeses and tricks up their sleeves, even more so than HotS. But hopefully I got the message across to why I think Protoss is heading in the right direction in Legacy. After a lot of thought I think the removal of chrono boost is a good thing for the race and I hope that you guys think so as well.I welcome this new "Protoss". Progamer pls no copy pasterino