One of her first memories is seeing her mother’s boyfriend shot dead in front of her at four years-old. The mother she adored was fiercely protective of her except when it interfered with her dangerous lifestyle. A great chat about mental health – especially among POC -, complicated relationships with mothers, the cycles of generational dysfunction and trauma in the black community and the challenges raising her teenage son in a mostly white community.

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 411, with my guest, Tonya McKenzie. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm a nut job. Let me, let me lay that down very clearly, right at the top. I'm not a therapist. I was a marginally-successful stand-up comedian and television host, uh (laughs), who is crazy, and who has been through, uh, a lot of different things. I don't have all the answers. But what I do have is conversations about ALL this shit that fucks with us. And I have awesome guests on who get really vulnerable, and,uh, we just talk about our, our struggles. And I started this podcast eight years ago because I felt like there wasn't something out there that let people know that they're not alone. Because when I was in the DARKEST of the dark … times of my life, I thought I was the only one. I thought everybody else had it figured out. And that was such a lonely, shameful, and isolating feeling. And that, if I do anything right with this podcast, it's that people feel comfort from it. That's the thing I could have really used, was comfort and laughter. And when I discovered support groups, that's where I found the comfort and the laughter. And I thought, "Well, why can't, you know, why can't we build a community around ALL of these issues?" And, you know, you don't have to be the solution to it. We can just be the fun, the fun part of it. And the illuminating; I supposed there's so-, there's parts of this podcast that are—I KNOW there are part, parts of this podcast, uh, that are illuminating and turn lightbulbs on for people. Energy-efficient lightbulbs. (Chuckles) This is California. I turn on LEDs over people's heads. And they're low-wattage. It's a warm temperature.

[00:02:26] What can I tell you? Elbow, uh, surgery recovery is, is going well. By well, I mean, uh, I've given up masturbating with my left hand (chuckles). How's that for too much information right out of the gate? Maybe I'm the only dirty one, but when you see somebody that had one arm in a sling, one of the first things I think of is, "Is that their jerking-off hand? Wonder how they're dealing with that?" Well, it's, uh, it's—I, I think the word that comes to mind is fumbly and unfulfilling. And, uh, fortunately, my, my girlfriend will be back in the country, uh, in about five days. And, I miss her. I miss her. I'm so grateful that long-distance calls aren't expensive like they used to be in the, in the old days. (Laughs) Like, you had to give all your information out as fast as possible. My dad used to be so funny. When he would be on a long-distance call, he would talk louder than if he was on a local call (chuckles). You could hear him, you could be standing outside of the house, and my dad was the most soft-spoken guy. But, on a long-distance call. Intelligent guy, went to Wharton Business School, he was an insurance executive, brilliant actuarial mind … thought he needed to talk louder (chuckles) when it was long distance. But anyway, I digress. The pain in my elbow is, uh, I've really only had it for two days, so I'm really grateful that, um, that it doesn’t ache. It doesn’t hurt. I, just, that, the tiring, sleeping, sitting up with your, with your arm in a sling. But, I, I like to, uh … I like to say that I'm in the process of building my appreciation for having the use of both of my hands. And I don’t say that sarcastically. I really do try to look at life that way. It's exhausting, looking at life cynically and what you don't have. One of the things I hear in my support groups a lot, is people will say, "I …" after they started coming to the support group, they wanted what they already had, as opposed to being in a constant state of want. It, I guess another way of putting it is it helps me appreciate the small things in life and to hopefully not take things for granted—which I'm sure, I'm sure I do. I think all people do, and that's, that's pretty human. But, um, I've been having to ask for help, to get rides. Shout-out to all of you who have, uh, who have helped me. Seeing a shitload of doctors, unrelated to the elbow, cuz my blood pressure is high, and, of course, I kept it hidden that I eat a half of a gigantic bag of salted popcorn every night, because I don't want to give that up (chuckles). So I finally copped to it and am cutting back or completely eliminating that, and I don’t know if that's gonna help. I'm cuttering my, cutting my Adderall dosage in half. My psychiatrist says it's worth giving it a shot. I'm seeing a cardiologist. I'm seeing a sleep specialist to see if I have sleep apnea. And I'm having the iron level checked in my blood. So I feel, uh, good that I am … the old me wouldn’t have ever even made a doctor's appointment, and that is one of the things about recovery, one of the blessings of it, is that it's easier to practice self-care. I used to hate, I would just avoid it. I would just avoid going to the doctor. If a bone wasn't sticking out, I wouldn't go the do-. And even if a bone was sticking out, sometimes I would just hang a cardigan on it, because it is a good look, and it does attract attention. And I can never get enough attention.

[00:06:57] Saw a couple of great things on TV. If you haven’t seen Handmaid's Tale, holy shit! HOLY shit! That, and Fleabag, uh, which I think is on Amazon Prime, might be the two greatest things going this year. Handmaid's Tale is, is Hulu; Fleabag is, um, Amazon Prime. And I'm hearing really good things about John Leguizamo's … I think it's Latin History for Morons, something like that. My girlfriend, who is, uh, Ecuadorian, uh, watched it, and says that I, I should watch it, that I would enjoy it. And I told her, "You're not the boss of me (chuckles)." The other thing that you should, uh, check out, uh, we went and saw this together, a documentary Free Solo. HOLY fuck! Holy fuck. It's a 98 percent, uh, approval rating on, uh, Rotten Tomatoes. I've never seen an approval rating that, that high. It's a documentary, it's about, uh, a, an incredible, incredible rock climber. Like the—I hate to use the analogy—but the Michael Jordan of, of, um, mountain climbing, rock climbing. And he is, uh, he climbs this wall, El Capitan, in Yosemite, without any ropes. It's, like, I dunno, 3,000 feet straight up. And a lot of the holds are, just like the nub of your climbing shoe and one of your pinkies. It's … It's … A lot of people may not be able to handle it. BUT, if you can, if you like tension and—it's just so well-done. The people that, that directed it, as well, they get into, um, his, the character's, uh, personality—not the characters, but the, the, they guy that, uh, stars in it, um, who's a very, very, widely celebrated, uh, climber. And, I don't know why his name is escaping me right now, but, uh. He seems to be a bit on the spectrum, and it's kind of interesting because as the movie unfolds, he gets into a relationship with a, with a woman. And so, you see him kind of awkwardly navigating, uh, coming out of his little climbing bubble, you know. This guy makes a lot of money, and he lives in a van just so he can climb all day long. Fascinating. Free Solo, is, uh, is the name of it.

[00:09:36] All right, I wanna read two, uh, two quick surveys. And then, um … Actually, before I do that, I wanna give some love to, uh, our sponsor, BetterHelp. They are an online therapy provider, and I've used them for two years. I love it. My therapist, Donna, is fantastic. She has helped me, uh, in so many ways. And, uh, I think BetterHelp is great. It's convenient. It's especially great for people that live in the boonies. You know, why get in the car and drive an hour away to the closest therapy, when you can just get online? And you don't have to do video even. You could do phone, live texts, uh, chat, uh, smoke signal. Pony Express. How many more should I list? But no, it's great. Go to better, betterhelp.com/mental, and, uh, fill out a questionnaire, and they’ll match you with a betterhelp.com counselor and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And, uh, you need to be over 18 years old. And make sure to include the, uh, "/mental" in the, uh, betterhelp.com so they know you came from this here podcast.

[00:10:45] This is a, an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Possible Child Abductor?" He writes, uh, "Couple years back, I went to meet my wife at Chuckie Cheese for our adopted daughter's birthday party. We've adopted two little girls who came from a troubled infancy and couldn’t be cared for by their parents. So, it's one of our daughters' birthdays, and my wife has already arrived with the kids to, well, basically, absorbed the overbearing atmosphere of a place like Chuckie Cheese's. I arrive later and receive a sort of weird, invisible stamp at the door. My wife and kids also received a stamp when they arrived, only it was different from the one I got because we showed up at different times, and we're classified as members of different groups. Cut to my exhausted wife, asking me to take our two little ones out to the car and get them strapped in, after a thoroughly draining afternoon. The man who sees us out examines our invisible black-light stamps and sees that they're different designs. 'Hold on, sir,' he says. Realizing what must have happened, I say, 'Oh, no, no, no. These are my girls. Girls, tell the man who I am.' My adopted daughters of over a year by this point—a two- and a three-year old who always call me Daddy—just stare blankly ahead." (Laughs) "The security guard asks them again, 'Who is this?' The girl will look up and back, and just continued to stare." (Laughs) "As the guard—" (laughs) "As the guard begins radioing someone, my wife finally arrives to join me." (Laughs) "'What's going on?' she asks. Can you please tell this guy that I'm NOT trying to steal our children?' I beg. Finally, my wife, who has the same coded tattoo stamp as our daughters, confirms who I am, and a large of onlookers watch me leave with kids I wasn't, in fact, there to steal." That might be one of my favorite awfulsome moments ever. Thank you for that.

[00:13:01] And then, here's another quick one, filled out by a woman, uh, who calls herself "Matcha." And she writes, "I was crying about being lonely, and screaming at my close friend that I didn't want to talk." Am I reading that—"I was crying about being lonely, and screaming at my close friend that I didn’t want to talk. I didn’t hang up, and she persisted until I calmed down to sternly tell me that I can feel as sad or angry as I want to, but I'm never allowed to feel lonely. I was so happy, I started crying again."

Intro

[00:14:40] Paul: I'm here with Tonya McKenzie, uh, who is an educator, um … Would you, would you call yourself a facilitator?

Tonya: A facilitator of uncomfortable and complicated conversations.

Paul: Yes. And you, you've had a doozy of a, of a life. And I think we should just jump right, uh, jump right into it and share some childhood memories that you think—uh, well, first of all, you're how old?

Tonya: I am 43.

Paul: Forty-three years old—

Tonya: I'm 43.

Paul: And, um, you're a mom …

Tonya: Of four.

Paul: Of four. Holy shit! Now, I really appreciate you making the time to come through rush-hour traffic to, to record.

Tonya: (Laughs)

Paul: You're a woman of, uh, color. And, what, what else, uh, that people should know about you before we—

Tonya: Let's see, I'm from San Jose, California. So, I'm from a very, um, mixed area. We were very liberal in California. So, uh, from San Jose, I went to Cal State Northridge, right out here in southern California. I married Raymond McKenzie, who is a member of Kappa Alpha Psi from San Diego State University. His parents are military. And, we live now in Redondo Beach, where I have, uh, become pretty active in the community there.

Paul: So, let's, um, paint a picture of your childhood for me and some, some moments that we kind of seminal in your development, how you view yourself, the world, etc.

Tonya: You know, I remember very clearly, uh, my family has always talked about me as a smart girl. Smart, bright, super helpful. Always wanted to help whoever do whatever. Pretty positive and light-hearted. At the age of four, my mom and me got our own apartment for the first time. We had been living with my grandmother. Her and my dad had divorced and, you know, that was a short-lived thing. We finally had our own place, and we lived in Palo Alto, California. And, she had this new boyfriend that I hadn’t met. My mom used to like to go out a lot. She loved to go out, and I loved watching her. I hated seeing her leave, but the getting ready part, and she was amazing and beautiful. That was always great, but she was always out and about, and, um … Anyways, we finally moved. We had our own place. She had her boyfriend, who, apparently, uh, you know, filled our refrigerator with all this great food. And him and his son came over one night. It was a Friday night. I was so excited about Saturday morning, as most kids were, right? School House Rock, a little cartoons on Saturday morning (laughs).

Paul: Sure.

Tonya: So, this Saturday morning was definitely unusual. We were up at about 7:30, uh, watching cartoons, and someone knocked at the door. It was three men. And before I could blink, um, you know, everything happened. One of them busted in through the door. Someone came through the back door. She was screaming, and there was just gunshots. There was—

Paul: Your mom was screaming.

Tonya: She was screaming, "Stop," and "Don't." And, just shots. And it was louder than anything I had ever heard.

Paul: And you were four?

Tonya: I was four. And, before I could—

Paul: So, you were equipped to handle this. You, you—

Tonya: Oh, yeah! CLEARLY equipped to handle—You know, I had watched TJ Hooker, maybe some shows like that. Cool, the coolest TV shows.

Paul: (Laughs) And you had watched the Sesame Street home invasion episode.

Tonya: Right! That whole thing, that happened right in front of me. And the little kid that had spent the night with us that night was his son, my mom's boyfriend. I actually, my reaction was to protect him. So, I shielded him, uh, in the corner of the couch. We had a pull-out bed in the front. And, uh, turned around and my mom was laying in front of me in a pool of blood, and she was, you know, screaming and the men had ran out. It all happened so fast, it was, it was insane. Before I knew it, one of her cousins lived upstairs from us, and she came downstairs and, I remember, she got me, and she was holding me. And we were outside, and the fire trucks and the police, they're all over the place. It felt, it felt like this happened in 10 minutes. Like all of this took place. And, I think the craziest thing for me in all of this is, I remember my cousin, or my mom's cousin, holding me, and I was always looking back for the other boy. I never, I have never, to this day, I have never seen this boy.

Paul: WHAT?!

Tonya: So, I just happen to be lucky enough to have someone that knew me, come and hold me and make me feel safe again, while we watched, you know, my mom being carted off by the ambulance and, um, I never saw this boy again. I actually spent a part of my, a part of my adult life looking for him.

Paul: He was the son of your mom's boyfriend.

Tonya: Yeah.

Paul: Where did he go after—

Tonya: Absolutely—I was four, and I have no idea.

Paul: So, your mom survived?

Tonya: So, my mom survived. She got shot twice, and her boyfriend did not.

Paul: Did not survive.

Tonya: Did not survive. Now, the most traumatic part about all of this is when the ambulance took her, I did not see her, uh, for a while. I actually thought she was dead. I didn’t think anything else. There was nothing else for me to think beside the ambulance took her, and I haven’t seen her. And, uh—

Paul: And nobody was telling you what was going on?

Tonya: No, of, course not. Yeah, watch TV. I, we went back to—I remember, I wound up back at my grandmother's house. And, I went back to school. They were talking amongst each other. But, you know, kids are, uh, to be seen and not heard. You know, stay out of grown folks' conversation, type of deal. So that's what I did. It's not like I had an option, so, you know, I pretty much stayed out of their way, while they had these quiet conversations about what was going on. I do remember hearing someone saying Bryce was, uh, Ralph was dead. And nothing else, not about my mom, not about anything. So, for a while, uh, I thought my mother was, was gone. And, that was the end of that. I was at school one day, and some men came on suits—they looked very handsome—and picked me up out of class, whisked me away, and we wound up at the airport. That was my first night flight ever. I had been with them for a while. We got to the airport. When we got on the airplane, my mom was sitting there. So that was the first time I had seen her in, I don't even know how long, to be honest. We were whisked away to New York, in a federal witness protection program. And, uh, you know, life went from there.

Paul: So … then she, obviously knew who it was that had attempted, made an attempt on her life—

Tonya: Of course. Oh, I forgot that part! That was my uncle.

Paul: Your uncle was the one that tried to kill her.

Tonya: Right.

Paul: And, what business was he into that—

Tonya: You know, I didn't, much of that part of the story, I really didn't find out until my adulthood, right? Actually, until I started, uh, writing my book. I had to do a little research, getting into the, uh, the legality of most of this. And, I had a protection over me, you know, all through my, um, young adulthood, my childhood, my young adulthood. I'm registered, uh, through victim services. So I do, uh … This is one of those times where I say, "I love the police. I love how our system works and protects me." And that might sound—

Paul: When it works, it's, it's awesome—

Tonya: It's AMAZING!

Paul: It's amazing.

Tonya: Man! I … I have lived the last, at least, 30 years, happy, um, about the police. They have, and this is weird to say as a woman of color, especially right now, uh, with what we're dealing with, with police brutality and those types of things, but I had to question that. Like, how did I live so much of my adult life with so much going on in regards to the police and legalities, and I've never experienced police brutalities. So that's a whole different conversation. But, all that being said, um, I've been registered with victim services, so I always got information on when he was gonna get out and things of that nature. He has actually been paroled a couple of times, and Governor Jerry Brown and Arnold Schwarzenegger both, uh, rescinded his parole. So that's how much of a menace this guy was.

Paul: Wow!

Tonya: Yes, my uncle. And, then, of course, I get to find out that my mom's boyfriend was, you know, in the same business. Let's just put it that way. But, of course, as a kid, you don't know that. So, I just happened to be placed in situations—and it wouldn't be the first, it wouldn’t be the last time—that I was placed in situations that would lead to, um, violence, uh, the authorities being involved, bloodshed, those types of things that probably, um, I dunno, shouldn’t be around kids, but I could be wrong.

Paul: Why do you gotta be so picky?

Tonya: (Laughs)

Paul: Why do you have to set such unrealistic standards?

Tonya: I'm just saying, a girl just wanted to do her homework in peace, and that's not one of those things that took place with me too often. I used to find myself, uh, doing my homework in the garage.

Paul: Wow.

Tonya: You know, just hiding away. Got very active in, uh, sports and extra-curricular, so that I didn't have to come home, just because it was always something—

Paul: That's such a common thing, of people who had terrible home lives, is they would stay at school as long as they could.

Tonya: Coming home on the last bus.

Paul: Yes! Oh my god, so many guests have shared that!

Tonya: It's, it, even walking—and we lived pretty far from school—just to get home late, not knowing what was going on. So, all that being said (clears throat), when I was around 13, I was assaulted, uh, by my uncle—

Paul: Hold, hold that thought for, for one second. I, I just have a couple of questions about the, um, pro-, protection thing. So, when you went under protection, was it that your names were changed and you were moved to, uh, an area where nobody knew you, so he couldn't find you? Or, was there just police protection around you?

Tonya: So, we went to New York, and we were in a hotel for an extended period of time. I remember—

Paul: Oh, so while the trial was going—

Tonya: While the trial was going on—

Paul: I gotcha.

Tonya: So, the other part of that … And I, you know, kind of got this from my mom later, is once we left New York, we wound up going into this strange facility, right? It was a bunch of women that had kids. All the kids that lived in this, it was a compound almost, we all went to the same, like, daycare. At least, that's what it felt like to me (clears throat). I don't know what my mother was doing during the day. Now, I find out she was, you know, working for the, the state, But she had perjured herself. So we were in a women's prison for women with children. We couldn't leave. So I went from federal witness protection program in another state, into a prison for women with children.

Paul: And you were how old at that point? Four or five?

Tonya: Six. I was about six by that time. So four was, uh, when it happened. Around four and, four and half, five, we were in New York. And then right after we left there and the trial was finally over, I was about six, um, and we were in this compound.

Paul: And it was just you with your mom—

Tonya: Me and my mom. And, she was pregnant when she got shot. So it was me and my mom and my brother. She had had him by that time.

Paul: How much … did she level with you about what was going on—and I don't know what the appropriate amount (both laugh) would have been for a, a fi-, a six-year-old in prison. I mean, that, that's a sentence I've never said before.

Tonya: She didn’t. My mother and I didn’t really have, uh, these honest conversations until I was about, sixteen, maybe? When I would start asking her questions about these flooding memories … about that time—keep in mind, there was still random, ridiculousness going on around me all through my youth. So, you know, at around 15, 16, I just had had enough of not knowing really. Trying to figure it out. Like, what, what is this thing called life, and why do I feel like I am, um, definitely not living the life that Susie's living across the street (both laugh). She's happy. She likes her parents. It is me, my mom, my brother, in these random situations that never end well. Yeah, I was definitely, uh, concerned enough to start asking these questions, you know. And, and, you know, you're a teenager, so when you're a teenager you're reckless anyways with your words, right? I started having issues with just, the people she would bring around. I remember I asked her one day, I said, "Why are all your boyfriends losers?" And she had just about slapped the taste out of my mouth. But, um, I just wanted to know! And then later, after she slapped, then we had this conversation about … who, what, what is this? And the truth of the matter is, and she was, she was honest with me, and then we had even more conversation later in life. But that's just the type of guy that she preferred. She was never a, um, 9-to-5 kind of guy, type of girl. And it didn’t matter that she had these two kids that she was pulling around, while she was dealing with these men and whatever else came with them.

Paul: To, uh, to which I would have said to her, "Well, there's a lot of wiggle room between a 9-to-5 person, and the guys you're choosing."

Tonya: (Laughs) And a pistol packer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that whole thing. Yeah, you know. But at that time, too, by the time I started having these conversations, I was already eyeing college. Like, I couldn’t get there fast enough.

Paul: That was your safety haven—

Tonya: That was my, I KNEW this was coming. Like, I was gonna do everything I needed to do, uh, to make that happen, I went to Santa Clara University, in one of their summer programs. It was a pre-law program. That was my first time really away from home for a week. It was amazing. I did great; they loved me. I was, like, "This is, this is what life should be. It should be easy, um, to go to school and learn and give back." And it just, that was not my reality. So, I had that week that just really kept me focused on next steps. So, by the time we started having conversations about what had gone down, um, in my early childhood, I was already preparing to, uh, get away from it. And, keep in mind, it wasn’t just her. I have a history of family dysfunction anyways. So, that was my uncle that did the shooting. I used to watch my grandmother get slapped around by her brothers. My mom got beat up by her brother in front of me. Stomped out—

Paul: Stomped—

Tonya: —on the street. Stomped out on the street. She—

Paul: Was this over drugs?

Tonya: No. They just didn’t, she just, he just didn't like her. He was a bully. He didn't like her. He just beat her up, right in front of me and my brother. I was screaming. And she wound up having to drag herself to her car. And we got in the car, and she drove herself to the hospital. We waited in the emergency room, while she got her cast on. And then we went home. And then—

Paul: And nothing was spoken of.

Tonya: And nothing was spoken. And that's what we do. And every weekend, we have a party, and it ends with something. So, you know, my wanting to leave had as much to do with the rest of the family, as it did with her. Because there was, there was no … I was, like, "This is no insane. This can't be real."

Paul: There was no island for you to—

Tonya: (Laughs) "This can't be real."

Paul: —get a break from it. I, I suppose school.

Tonya: And that was it. And, you know, school was for me. It wasn't really for her. I remember I was about, hmm, maybe 16, and she would pull me out of school and say, "Hey. Let's, let's go get a drink." We would go to Red Lobster and have Bahama Mamas.

Paul: (Laughs) Which was probably great to you as a, as a kid. What do you think was going through her mind? I'm sure you’ve pondered this endlessly, of wh-, what was she thinking, about so many of these circumstances?

Tonya: This is what I've come to realize. And not just with her, but now that I'm older and I see more women that will drag their children through situations. And I've had friends that we can have honest conversations. I think my mom loved me. I don’t think she loved being a mother. And in our society, I don’t think we embrace that enough, to have that conversation. I think it's okay for a woman to say, "I don't really wanna do this." It's like a job title, but you don't really want that job, right? You're, like, "Oh. Okay, I wanna be an attorney." But you don’t really like law. You don't like studying, you don't like doing research. You don't want trial. You don’t wanna talk to the judge. You don't wanna negotiate. You don't wanna be no lawyer! You just like the title. And, you might not even like the title; somebody just gave you this job. She loved us. Like, she would fight to protect us, but she was the one putting us in situations where she would have to protect us (chuckles).

Paul: So, it'd be fair to say that her concern for you was not consistent (chuckles).

Tonya: Not if it came at the cost of her own social preferences.

Paul: So what do you think was … created that need in her so badly, for the chaos of the "exciting" boyfriends? What …

Tonya: You know what? I don't know. And, the truth of the matter is, I had to start to realize that it's not my truth. Like, it's—and not just in that situation. When I was assaulted by my uncle and various other things. That's not my mess. So, even spending the time to try to figure out how people put kids in situations like that. It started to become too burdensome, and I let it go. I, I will never understand that, because, for me as a mother, I make all my decisions based on my kids first and my needs, you know, second, fifth, twelfth, sometimes. But it's never my deci-, what I want first, and then everybody else can just deal with that, and then circle back to what's right and what's wrong, you know? I think certain people are attracted to certain types of behaviors and social scenes.

Paul: Yep. And, and …

Tonya: And that's fine. But don't throw in kids into it.

Paul: Especially things that are familiar, if we don't consciously say "I'm gonna break the cycle." And for some people, I think it's easier than, than others. Yeah, but some many people just walk through life just regurgitating the same energy they, they grew up in. And it's, um, it seems to be the default unless there's some type of, uh, awakening in, in someone's consciousness. What, what emotions do you think … If you could, if you could get in a time machine and go back and talk to little you between four and 16, what would you say to you, and what would you say as an advocate for you to your mom?

Tonya: What I would say to that kid is, "Keep fighting. It's gonna be all right. You're gonna be okay. You know, this isn't it for you. This does not have to be for the rest of your life. You will be okay." Because there were times where I thought, "I don't even know if I'm gonna make it to 18. I don't even know if I'm gonna make it." You would be in the house and bullets could start flying. You just never knew. So I would let that little girl know just … keep fighting. Keep pushing. It'll be okay. You're gonna be all right.

Paul: What do you think she would have said?

Tonya: "I'm not so sure."

Paul: That's what she would have said?

Tonya: She would have said that. She would have said, "I'm not so sure." And, to my mother, and the rest of the family that kinda enables this kind of behavior, and even adds to it: "You can do better. They deserve better. These kids in this family deserve better. And it's your job to do better than this." Eh! If they would have listened. That's a whole different story.

Paul: Have, have you—

Tonya: They'd have to be sober to listen; I dunno.

Paul: Have, have you ever, um—I would imagine, there has to be, or has to have HAD been, a tremendous amount of rage inside you.

Tonya: You know, I gave a speech not too long ago, and I asked everybody … You know, I told them the story about—I spoke at a conference, and I told them the story about this kid that went through what I went through. I didn't tell them it was me. And it was a group of educators. And I said, "What do you, what does that kid look like to you in a classroom?" And they were, like, "Angry, withdrawn, violent, ugh!" And I was, like, "Actually, no! Outgoing and positive and still smiling, because you don't want anybody else to know that this is what you're going home to, and, uh, super extravert, because you don't want anybody trying to figure you out, so you just talk until they don't say anything about what's going on in your life." I was so petrified that the other people in my class, in my school, or my teachers would find out how dysfunctional my household and my life was, that I wouldn’t be able to come back to school. I didn’t want to go to foster care, I don't want, I just wanna go to school, so I can have recess with my friends. So, that child … may have had rage and fear and sadness inside, but that's not what you saw on the outside. So …

Paul: So, and, it sounds like, in a lot of ways, too, that focus on the academic and the, uh, having social skills was also a way to distract you from what you were feelings.

Tonya: Yeah, it was a way to distract me and everybody else from looking …

Paul: Right.

Tonya: … any deeper than what they saw.

Paul: Right. But, I mean, for your own emotional well-being, it took, cuz if—I mean, if you had stopped and considered what you had been dealt, uh, crushing rage or sadness or grief or fear, um, would have been so intense …

Tonya: So, there was a couple of times where that happened, and I would lash out. One time, I … thought I was slitting my wrist with a razor. It was so superficial though, I was just so scared to see blood again. But I really just wanted her to see me, right? Just, I just want your attention.

Paul: See my pain.

Tonya: Just see me, like, as a human, as your child, um, just see me. And that didn’t help. That (laughs), that didn't last very long. Maybe five minutes. So, yeah, there were moments when I'd lash out, but my mom was … She was a strong woman, and she didn't really put up with no mess. So, I wasn't trying to battle her. So I just, uh, surrendered and did what I needed to do to get out. (Pause) But, yeah. It was, it was tough. And I was upset a lot, but I would work hard, keep working hard, stay busy, read, hang out with friends, just to keep with having to deal with my reality, yeah.

Paul: What were your favorite intellectual escapes?

Tonya: I love biographies. I even read, um, I remember when Michael Jackson's first biography first came out, the LONG one, it's like a couple thousand pages. I just love to read about other people's life.

Paul: Isn't it the best? It's, it's like a movie that just lasts forever.

Tonya: Forever!

Paul: At least if it's well written.

Tonya: (Laughs) Right? And that one was. That was probably my first, um, and really, you know, getting into other people's life. And then, you realize—Actually, I think that was probably really helpful, because you realize, there're a lot of people with things that go on in their life that you wouldn’t necessarily consider normal, right? There's something in everybody's life that you can, um, that you can, that resonates with you. So, with that, and knowing and understanding that, maybe in my early teens, it gave me a little more hope, too. Like, "Oh! And they were able to move forward and do this, and do great things and make change and change lives and become significant." So, that type of, um, that type of, uh, opportunity to just delve into someone else's life, actually helped me a lot.

Paul: There's a, a, a guy who, to me, if one of the best biographers. He, he wrote, uh, to me, the definitive biography of Einstein and of Steve Jobs, a guy named Walter Isaacson. And, he is, to me, a combination of the best researcher and the best storyteller. And, um, anything by him is great. He wrote, I think, a biography on FDR, that's supposed to be kind of—or Ben Franklin. Maybe both of them. Anyway, if you ever get a chance to read anything by Walter Isaacson, highly, highly recommend it.

Tonya: I think I will.

Paul: Yeah. They're, and they are not think. (Laughs) They are, they are thick. But that's when it's … I'm sure you know that feeling, when you are 10 pages into something and it's already amazing, and you've got 800 to go, it's like oh yeah!

Tonya: Good stuff.

Paul: Yeah. So, what … kind of thoughts did you think about yourself, when you were a kid?

Tonya: Unworthy. Unimportant, insignificant. There were times of worthlessness. You know, when I, at the beginning I told they say, "Oh, she's so smart! She's great!" My aunt had even wrote a song about me and it was so cute. And I just thought I was amazing and meant to do great things. And by the time I was about 14, I had none of those feelings. I didn’t see myself being significant, amazing at much, because, you know, she used to drink a lot. And, she was upset and depressed about the death. So when her boyfriend died, and she had the baby, you know, that was her fixation. She loved my brother because he was of her love—

Paul: OOOOHH!

Tonya: —right? And then there was me, from the guy she divorced.

Paul: Hmm.

Tonya: You could see how that might play out in the situation where my mother is depressed, alcoholic, and then there was crack. That happened. So, you now, there wasn't much opportunity for me to, um, feel like I was significant or important or made for greatness. At that moment, I was just made to wash the dishes and take care of my brother.

Paul: Did anybody ever pull you aside and say nice things to you?

Tonya: You know, my grandparents were my saving grace. My grandfather, uh, is the epitome of heroism. He took care of us. He worked really hard. He was the example of what a mad should be. So when, given the opportunity, he would step in and, he wouldn't say nice things. He would just DO nice things and make sure that I had what I needed, especially if it had anything to do with school, um, and opportunity, right? So when I went away to Santa Clara University, he made sure I had everything I needed to do that. He's from the south, so he's not a lovey, you know, love bug type of guy. He's just, "Hey, whatcha need? I got you."

Paul: Bet he, bet he's seen some shit!

Tonya: (Laughs) Yeah!

Paul: Good lord!

Tonya: Right! So, you know, they come from—I had seven, he had 17 brothers and sisters. And they all have the same mother and father. So, that's the kind of family life that he comes from.

Paul: And he's your mom's dad?

Tonya: Yes.

Paul: Wha-, what went wrong?

Tonya: I think … I don't know! I, I keep telling ya! I really—

Paul: Maybe that's alcoholism. You know, I certainly don't want to make excuses for you mom, and I'm not, you know. She's responsible—

Tonya: And, and, it's not just her, but—

Paul: Yes.

Tonya: —keep in mind, my grandparents had four kids. I don't think any of them are fitting of them. I just, I don't see it. None of them resemble, none of their kids resemble them, in behavior or disposition. They—

Paul: That's so odd!

Tonya: It is so odd. So I almost have problems when people are, like, "Oh, you know, slave mentality," or, or things of that nature, cuz I'm, like, "Their parents wasn't no slaves! They worked hard, they provided. They helped each other. They were good to each other, and they were good to the grandkids." So, I don't, I don't know where that came from. I really don't.

Paul: What do-, what does that mean, when somebody says "slave mentality?"

Tonya: They are referencing dysfunction that we have started to, uh, resemble when slavery was taking place. Like, the black men were taken away from their families, and, you know, they were pitted, black people were pitted against each other. And, um, you know, the families were separated and, you know, there was the house slaves that got treated better than the other slaves. So, you kn-, sometimes we reference that in regards to bad behavior in our community.

Paul: I see. So the ripples of op-, of oppression inter-generationally.

Tonya: Absolutely. So I say generational dysfunction. I just don't know exactly where it came from.

Paul: Yeah! Cuz it's—

Tonya: In our family, it definitely did not come from my grandfather's side of the family. They worked hard, they helped each other, and then they helped each other's kids. And that's not what they returned upon us.

Paul: What was your grandmother like? Your mom's mom.

Tonya: My mom, my gran-, (sigh) my grandmother was—She loved her grandkids, she loved me. I was the oldest. She took care of me as much as she could. But she was also, uh … My grandmother had a hard time. Her mother, who lived around the corner … made her feel bad about herself. She was uneducated. She wasn’t, she never felt like she was valued very much. But she never treated us like that. She never even treated my mom like that. She did as much as she could. Just nice; she was nice. "I'll do whatever I can for you." But she would arg-, you know, she would get into it with my mom. We used to live with my grandmother. So, my mom and my dad were married. They lived with my grandmother and her husband. Then, my dad left; got a divorce. He was, like, "I can't take it." And, so we would live with my grandmother every time we would get out of a situation. So, even after all of the chaos took place, you know, we bounced around a bit, we wound up back at my grandmother's house.

Paul: And was she not living with, uh, your grandfather, at that point?

Tonya: Yeah, they had got a divorce when I was, uh, really young.

Paul: Okay.

Tonya: Before I was born, they had got a divorce. So, I never saw my grandparents together, but they, they were still friends. Like, they were, they were friends. They just, whatever, couldn’t be married. But with that being said, um, they were very supportive of their kids and their kids' kids. So, the grandkids always had what they needed, um, but I think they both knew not to cross my mom's path, cuz she was, uh, tenacious, and stubborn, and different. She was very much not of the mainstream, you know?

Paul: Give, give me, if you can think of any, some beautiful moments that you had with your mom. I mean, you shared one that was, in a kind of fucked-up way kind of beautiful (both laugh), the Mai Tais at Red Lobster.

Tonya: No we … You know, my mom, she was fun! Like, she was AMAZING! People LOVED her! She gave the best parties. She cooked. She was beautiful. She always smelled great. People loved having her around. She's loyal. And I always wanted her to want to be with me.

Paul: Loyal to you.

Tonya: And it just was never that.

Paul: That's heartbreaking, that she couldn't be loyal to the one person who ABSOLUTELY needed her loyalty.

Tonya: Um, she was loyal to my brother, though. That was good. And then after, you know, she had two more kids. So I have, um, two younger sisters. Guess she figured she screwed up me and my brother, she would try again. Of course, he was a loser. So, she would up raising my two sisters by herself. And—

Paul: The, the guy that she had them with was a loser.

Tonya: Oh yeah!

Paul: Yeah.

Tonya: Yeah, he's a clown. But, all that being said, we had that conversation again. "Dude, what is wrong with these MEN that you keep picking out?!" And I, yeah, I got popped again (laughs). But I still had to ask. I had to ask. I had to be about 16. She, uh, told me she was pregnant, so I wasn't out of high school yet, and I almost lost it. I was, like, "We are NOT doing this again."

Paul: I love the reverse, too, of the, the 16-year-old in high school giving the mom the talk—

Tonya: RIGHT!

Paul: —about use protection, you know? Make a wise choice.

Tonya: Come on, please?! Please! So that, that didn't happen. So, she had two with him. She … But she was so fun and funny! And that's the person that people call when they need somebody to have their back. And, when I was in college, though … there were a lot of lessons that she would teach. I'm not saying she was the most eloquent in teaching them. But, she had a lot of knowledge, and she was very wise, especially about street stuff, right? Some people don't have any common sense. I think she got all the common sense. She didn’t always use it, but she had it all. So, I was about 20, hmm, 3, and I was in my college dorm one night, and I woke up, out the blue. And everything just hit me. It hit me that, you know, much of what she had to say was on point. You know, I had had some experiences by then with boys and, you know, chicks that I probably shouldn’t've trusted, that she would be, like, "Leave that girl alone! She ain't no good!" And then I was, like, "She was right!" There wasn't much that said to me that wasn't on point, right? And I had to stop being upset about … Because nothing's gonna change in my, for my childhood, right? I'm, and I don't wanna be upset. I don't wanna be angry. I'm moving into this new phase of my life—I'm about to graduate. I don't wanna take that with me. And, it all just started to make sense. She was smart, she cared. She just wasn't ready to be a mother. She's a good person … to the people that she's fighting for. She just wasn't ready to be a mother.

Paul: And, and her picker was broken.

Tonya: (Laughs) Yeah, that was, off. I don't even think she thought that. She, she may just be, like, "This is what I like." I was, like, people that eat black licorice. Just nasty to the rest of us.

Paul: Come on, why do you gotta say that?! Just when we're getting along!

Tonya: (Laughs) I'm just saying. So, you know, it … she was great! I loved watching her with her friends and, it just was never for me.

Paul: What do you … you talked about loving watching her get dressed up. What do you think it was about that?

Tonya: It was so glamorous. It was so not what I was able to do. It was exciting. She about to go out and have a good time, and it just looked fun. To be excited, to go do something. So I loved, I LOVED watching her just get excited about something, right?

Paul: So, her mood was good when she was getting ready to go out.

Tonya: Absolutely. On fire; she was ready to go conquer something, or someone. I don't (laughs) know. Bur she had that about her. What I—Oh, what I did meant to say though, was when I was in my dorm that night and I woke up, and I was saying, you know, I got it, I called her, and I apologized, for … You know, there were times where I wasn't as eloquent with my words, either, as a young girl. And, I've always been taught to be respectful, of adult and elders. So, there were times when I was probably real nasty with some of the things I had to say. Teenage years, young-adult years, whatever. And I called and I, I apologized for causing her any problems. I told her I understood, uh, you know, what she was making an effort to do in regards to our relationship. And, I would like for us to have an adult relationship. And later, I had that conversation with my dad, too. We had to have that conversation. You know, I'm … in my young adulthood, so we can have adult conversations now. And that's really when I also started finding out more details about, uh, the childhood incident, and some of the other things that happened along, uh, along the way. But, having that, being able to have had that conversation with her, it was actually like a new start for us. And I realize that that moment, too, is MANY relationships can be either salvaged and repaired by just being honest, right? People are afraid to open up about their vulnerabilities, their fears, and their failures. And she acknowledged where she went wrong. So, we probably stayed up a few hours, um, but that was definitely a turning point. So, when you ask about one of her more genuine and amazing moments, for me, that was the best.

Paul: It's, like ,you needed the truth and she showed up for you—

Tonya: Man!

Paul: —with the truth in that moment.

Tonya: Man! And, uh, you know, I lost her not too long after that. So, I do look at grief differently, too. Being able to say that, uh, we were able to have that conversation before she passed, was HUGE! Because I do believe that when people pass away, and you haven’t had those mandatory conversations, you, your grief is so much more intensified—

Paul: And complicated.

Tonya: And complicated. And there was nothing left. Like, when she passed, there was nothing left. We had talked about it. You can't, I can't fix my childhood, and everything going forward is really on me. I'm not gonna blame my next steps on what happened twenty-something years ago.

Paul: Right. I think as long as that person can hear what it is that you need, what your baseline needs are to have a relationship going forward, and that's kind of clear. Because I, I know a lot of people that listen to the podcast, I'll have somebody, uh—And I've experienced this myself as well, where I try to salvage a relationship, but there isn't enough of an overlapping reality for that person to give a baseline amount of respect that our mental health isn't negatively affected by interactions with those people. Is the caveat I wanna throw out there to anybody who's listening, who is feeling guilty that they don't have contact with a relative who's, who's toxic, is …

Tonya: Yeah. I actually had tried that with my aunt not too long ago, because we have some issues that came up from the past, and they've been lingering. And, she said, "I'm ready to talk." And I was, like, "Oooh! Get to fix this." And we sat down to talk, and she was, only wanted to talk about what she wanted to talk about. And, that was it! And if you talk about anything outside of these parameters, I'm not talking. I was, like, "Okay, then we're not talking." Cuz the agreement was we were gonna be honest. So, yeah. Definitely heed that caveat, um, that level of respect, and openness has to be on both parts.

Paul: Yeah. Earlier, you, you had started to talk about an incident when you were 13, and you were assaulted by your uncle. And I paused, because I wanted to know some stuff about … your headspace when you were four and five.

Tonya: So, with the lifestyle that my mother led, I would stay at, uh, my aunt's often. And, my uncle was also in that lifestyle that my mother was in. And one thing, I'm sure many of your listeners that have been through this know, is that predators pick their prey. And many times, they pick their prey based on the absenteeism of parents or guardians or protectors. So, he knew, um, that I was in a vulnerable situation. And I was 13, so who's gonna believe some lying 13-year-old, right? And, uh, he, you know, he … he did what he needed to do, and didn’t think that my mother would believe me. So when I told her, she did. But not only did she believe me, but then she told me WHY she believed me. And that was because he had exemplified these behaviors to her and others in the family also. So then I was mad at her about that. Well, why would leave me with someone you feel is a predator? Why would you do that?

Paul: Did she say anything?

Tonya: Because she had to go do what she was doing on the weekends. So, you know, that was a whole other conversation. BUT, the win was, she believed me. She supported me in going to the police with that. And it was a whole, you know, other situation that you have to go through at 13—

Paul: Ugh!

Tonya: —and he worked at my high school. And, because it was the he said/she said, he wouldn't get prosecute, but at least I put it on the record. So, she supported me through that. And, I needed that at the time.

Paul: And did you have to see him at school after that?

Tonya: I did.

Paul: What was that like?

Tonya: He coached our baseball team, and I used to play on the softball team. And it was disgusting. And even now, it still makes my stomach hurt. More so, even after all these years, he's still enabled by his wife that will support his lie. It's ridiculous. I don't know how people do that. You know, just listening to what's going on in the Catholic church and all these kids. We wanna protect, the organization, we wanna protect the family. I mean, you can do that, but at what cost? So … that was 13. That was high school. And, moving forward from there, I just, I left it there because, again, I know how to leave things behind or act like it's not bothering me, so that I can, you know, have this life—

Paul: Has that ever caught up to you, though?

Tonya: I (chuckles) … No. Actua—Okay, I'm lying. It did. So, when my uncle assaulted me, I was sleep. It happened again in college. I was sleep. I was assaulted. When I got married, I used to have problem sleeping, and I didn’t realize it for a while. And then I started speaking to a therapist. But I didn't, you know, putting it behind me and acting like it's nothing and, okay, I'm just gonna be mad about it, and then I'm gonna move on. Yeah, it caught up to me, (laughs) in the worst way. In the worst way. I didn’t know what was going on with me. I was, like, "I don't know why I can't sleep … with my husband." So, you know, once you—

Paul: Oh, you mean sleep, sexual sleep, or sleep, as in fall asleep—

Tonya: I just couldn’t sleep. I couldn’t, I would, I became a light sleeper.

Paul: I got you.

Tonya: Just because of that fear of something happening while I'm sleep.

Paul: Yeah.

Tonya: All the time. It was so weird.

Paul: And, and how long was it until you were able to sleep?

Tonya: Probably about two years after we got married.

Paul: And, and what was processed in that, what did that look like, the processing of that? Any snapshots from those sessions or …

Tonya: More or less, it had to do with understanding where my safety lied. And—

Paul: Today, or then?

Tonya: Then. I'm safe in this space. This is a safe space for me. This is my protector.

Paul: In, in those sessions, was there any rage or tears or sadness—

Tonya: Of course. Incredible amount of tears. Tears … You know, many times, and I think this is where my child advocy, advocacy comes in is, most of it is not even for myself. What strikes me is what I'm going through, there's a million other kids going through it. So, in these sessions, it would hurt me to know that these things not only happened to me, but there are people that they happened to that don't get believed. That don't get, um, the validation that I was able to get. That was one of the biggest gifts from her, and the officers. And, actually, that whole case was able to be used again in a later suit. So then, I got to pat myself on the back for doing the right thing. Yeah, for the police again! But, it usually, my pain, this is so weird, it's usually for the kids that don't get believed, the kids that don't get the support, the girls that never wind up having functional relationships because they're so tortured by the assaults and the violence, sexual violence that they have experienced, that have, they never gotten any redemption for. That hurts me for them, as much as it hurts me for myself. So, I would cry, yeah. And there are days now where it still really bothers me. We have, you know, younger kids, you get to watch the younger kids grow up, and you just hope and pray, because the family hasn't made change, or removed this virus from the fold, that it could happen again. It's not just me. It could happen again, and again, and again. And it has happened … a couple more times. So I know if that happens in my family, it happens in other families. I mean, you know … it happens.

Paul: So, uh, let's segue then, into the advocacy. What it, what it is that you do, uh, nowadays, and some things that people who aren't familiar with child advocacy these days, what it, what it looks like. You know, maybe some, any stories you can share that kind of illuminate …

Tonya: Couple things. I speak to youth groups. I'm a member of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Inc., and we have a youth group. I am the chair of that committee. So, I'm able to talk to, mentor, guide young girls. We also do programs with other organizations. Like, we have a foster youth program, where we go, you know, speak to foster youth, provide them with things, necessities and what not, help guide them through, um, their foster time into their adulthood. So we, we help with that and having those conversations. I'm done some work with I Have a Dream Foundation in LA. They have a great program, where they take young kids and they start, um, in the elementary schools and they guide them and help mentor them into the high schools. You know, having to speak with them, some sit-downs with them, question/answer. I had a conversation one day after one of our sessions, and one of the girls asked me, she said, "You know," she was a senior, about to graduate. She got the scholarship, super excited. But she said, "I'm having problems with my family giving me a hard time for going off to college." And while she's telling me this, she's crying. "They are really pressuring me to turn down this scholarship. What should I do?" Being able to have that conversation for her, was very rewarding for me, because I'm not only able to share my experience and lend her some support, but then we keep in touch. So that now, she's in college, we can continue to, you know, communicate and guide her through some of the more difficult situations that come up, just in your young adulthood. So that's just, you know, an example of a co-, things that I enjoy doing. I am an active member of League of Women Voters. You now, it's non-partisan, but we support legislation that is for kids, that benefits them. Not the pockets of others, but really benefits, uh, kids that might not have so much. They should be able to get the same quality education. And that legislation is important to us; we fight for that. So, being affiliated with certain organizations, working with, volunteering, speaking at schools, and just being available so that, when something happens, if they need someone to talk to or go with them to the police department or stay at the housed until they feel like their house is safe, all of those things I do. And I will continue to do. (Pauses) That's all I got (both laugh). Actually, I used to, uh, I was an associate executive director for the YMCA. And, one of the things that I, that drives me is being healthy, right? We started a lot of different, uh, programs. I coached. So, being in to fitness, that part of it, too, and helping them understand that mind-body connection, has been HUGE!

Paul: Yeah.

Tonya: You know, there's nothing better than a good workout when you're infuriated or go for a run when craziness is happening at your home (laughs).

Paul: That's why, uh, sometimes it's good to flee from the home, because then you can get some exercise as you're running from the gunfire. Just, make sure that you pace yourself—

Tonya: Get your wind up.

Paul: Yeah, that first 100 yards, resist the urge to hyperventilate (both laugh).

Tonya: Put the head down, move forward—

Paul: With the head down. And then you're a smaller target as well.

Tonya: Right, right, right! Duck and dive.

Paul: Let's talk about racial politics and being the mother of, uh, a boy. He's … how, how old, he's high school age, you kid.

Tonya: Seventeen. He's on his way to Sarah Lawrence College in New York, to play basketball for them. And, this kid is the first thing I felt like I really did right, other than go to college. I will tell you, my mother taught me what not to do as a parent. And there were times where I may have gone overboard, but I'm definitely proud of the work that my husband and I have done.

Paul: And he's your oldest?

Tonya: He's my oldest.

Paul: And what's his name again?

Tonya: Raymond, Raymond McKenzie.

Paul: He's in the other room, watching, uh, actually watching his phone. I offered for him to watch the TV, and then I was … you're like, "No, it's the modern age. He can—"

Tonya: He can entertain himself. Self-entertainment. That works. So, you know, being … an African-American … family in California, um, is pretty, I'm sure, easier than in some places, right? Easier than in Detroit or Cleveland. We’re pretty, uh, mixed and liberal in California, for the most part. But we also live in Redondo Beach, where we are four percent of the entire population. And that does leave us in a situation where we are always trying to make sure that, you know, our kids make the right decisions, and they make the right moves, or they don't make the wrong moves.

Paul: Gi-, gi-, give me some examples.

Tonya: (Sighs) To be honest, uh, walking around town at night with your hoodie on. It shouldn’t be a problem, but we all know about the Trayvon Martin situation. So our conversation with him is, "Look, you're right. This shouldn’t be a problem. But I don’t wanna lose you, and you trying to make it to college, so let's just avoid that."

Paul: What is that life, having to have that conversation?

Tonya: It is incredibly upsetting. And it's infuriating because, you know, younger kids are, they feel like they're invincible, like they'll live forever. Especially mine, because they’ve never been through anything that I've been through. So, it's a hard conversation to have, but I've always been very honest with him because I want him to understand what his expectations are and what the reality is. I leave a lot of it to my husband, because, you know, they're relatively close, but sometimes it coming from your mom sounds a little different than, uh, the bass in the voice of his dad. So, um, we definitely have to do that. But I've also been very active and showed … my son about being active in your community, because that leaves you with more of an opportunity to have interactions with your authorities than just it being a incident, right? I had a conversation, actually, with our chief, uh, recently. And he said, "You know, we're really trying to start having relationships with the residents before they're pulled over, or arrested." Because for many people, particularly our teenagers, that is their first, uh, you know, contact with officers. It's when something bad has happened. So, me being active in my community has always been to show my children that you don't have to be a bystander in this life. You don't have to be a bystander in this community, sitting around waiting for something to happen to you or being afraid. It's okay to talk to people and let them know who you are. That's how you differentiate yourself between the person that they know and the person that they don't know, and how you keep yourself out of, for the most part, out of those situations. So, you know, really being the example because, I won't, I won't say because we're African-American, but, being a bystander in this life is just unacceptable to me. Because you're waiting for life to happen to you, instead of you going out and making life happen. So I—And they, they've been afforded that opportunity, so why wouldn’t they? That's pretty much how we, kind of, battle some of these, uh, cultural politics that go on. Don't wait for something to happen, don't wait for them to come to you. Go to them! Introduce yourself. Let 'em know about you. What do you do? Volunteer! You, you wanna know what's going on with the homeless down the street? Le-, let, let's go find out. Oh, you, you, you don't wanna wear those clothes anymore? Well, let's go find somebody that can. And then you really get to show the world who you are instead of just waiting for life to happen. So, those are kind of different ways that we, we ju—We have to battle it. We can't just be bystanders.

Paul: And I, and I think it can help foster empathy in your child, uh, you know. For all the things that my mom, uh, did wrong, uh, she instilled a, a sense of, um, empathy and not taking for granted the socioeconomic status that we grew up in. She was always act-, she was in the League of Women Voters. She was in a thing called Respond Now, and, uh, she would, uh, take us sometimes into neighborhoods to see how other people lived. People that weren’t as fortunate, and we'd had a kid from, uh, you know, uh, boys' home stay with us for Christmas, things like that. And, I think it's, it's, uh … it is important to understand how, how, uh … people other than yourself live. Are there, are there any other things that … you have—Go ahead.

Tonya: Speaking of … to, um, follow up with that you’ve been saying: that was another thing that my mother did. It didn't matter what else was going on in her life. If there was someone that needed a place to stay, uh, a plate to eat, she was right there. She would feed armies of kids and other families. There's been times where our own—We had two other families living with us, even though we didn't really have much. Whatever we had was enough to share with others, right? And, and there were literally times when, maybe the lights were off, we were eating camp food, because we couldn't cook. And there might be someone else living with us, another family. So, that was—You know, it's hard to balance when you—And, and you can attest to this. When you have these things that go on with people that actually leave you wounded, but these same people are out doing good things. Like, how do you even—that's the complexity of trying to understand … child, child, childhood trauma. Because they're traumatizing you, but they're also teaching you and guiding you. Like, how does that even make sense?

Paul: It, it is one of the biggest things to make sense, to struggle to make sense of, and, um, I think therapists call it, uh, what is it, cognitive dissonance. And, uh, it … I had to arrive at a place where I understood that people can be both at the same time. And there is no sum-total that you assign to them of a grade of who they are as a human being, and one thing doesn’t cancel the other out, you know. If somebody's beating the shit out of you, but they buy you nice Christmas presents, one doesn’t subtract from the other and you're left with a you know, a number to assess. It's—Because I, I hear a lot of times, people will say, "But my parents are putting me through college. Yes, they verbally abused me, but they're …" And I'm, like, "One doesn’t cancel the other out. It's, you need to go and, and think about what it is that you are feeling and what it is that you would like, and ask yourself, "What is it going to take for me to feel like I have a voice in my life?" And let that be what guides you, rather than, is this a, an evil person or a great person? It's, uh, everybody has some darkness, uh, to them in one form or 'nother. And, um, you know, what is it, Jung calls it the, the shadow, the shadow self? Go ahead.

Tonya: She, you know, the thing about my mom, too, she recognized, this is the deal, she recognized that this was not, our life was a mess, right? And, decided to seek help. So, we did go to a therapist. I was so EXCITED! I was, like, "Oh, we're gonna get help. Life is about to be great." Yeah, no. First of all, black people don't do therapy. And, when they do, they don't do it. So, the therapist, you know, was talking, and she would talk and then she would talk to me and, talk back to my mom, and then she would, you know, give some suggestions or what. Yeah, I thought the therapist was about to get beat up that day.

Paul: Or, your mom—

Tonya: That didn't end, that didn’t end well.

Paul: You were referencing your mom when you said black people don't do, uh, therapy.

Tonya: Well, no, I'm referencing black people don't like—In our culture, we are not, um … It's new. This new, uh, trend of talking to a therapist, this is new for us. We don't generally talk to therapists.

Paul: But you open up when you go to one. You did for two years.

Tonya: I had to. Because I also could acknowledge that my life was off, and I'm messed up. So, when I was a kid and she finally—I think maybe a pediatrician, the pediatrician had recommended us. And so, we went. And that didn't go well. Like, "You ain't gone be telling me what to do with my kids, and how I'm gone talk to my kids. I'll whoop 'em if I want. I do—" I was, like, "Okay. We should probably leave now." (Both laugh).

Paul: Oh, man!

Tonya: I had to be, like, 10. I was, like, "This is not going well! I should probab—" Yeah! We do-, you know, we just don't, that's not what we do. We're very prideful people. We are, we are prideful people. So, we don't want anybody telling us that what we're doing is not enough or it ain't right. You get to telling a black woman that she ain't raising her kids right, you might get beat up, by her, on sight. So, that didn’t go well. That did tarnish my thoughts, though, um, about therapy. And, it, to, that's probably why it took so long, you know? Probably why it took so long—

Paul: Do you find it's changing in the community that you interact with?

Tonya: Yeah. I think we're tired of being crazy, raising generations of nut jobs. And I say that, because medication is on the rise. But with that being said, that means people acknowledging that they are damaged is on the rise, which is good.

Paul: It's really good.

Tonya: So, that means, more people that are questioning if they're okay is on the rise. That is a great example of change, right? It's coming. The schools now are dealing with, um, kids with bad behavior differently, right? They're starting to do more restorative justice practices and looking into what's actually going on with this kid. Like, you don't just wake up and throw a chair at your teacher. Like, no one does that. So, being able to back up and just, instead of suspending them, let's have a conversation. Let's find out what's going on. They're starting earlier. So now we're able to … funnel people more into therapy after we figure out what's going on and, this is what has happened in their life, this is what they’ve experienced, this is what they’ve seen, or, you know, his parents were, had substance on them when he was born, and. You know, I had a little cousin who was born with, um, drugs on his brain. He wound up, you know, getting treatment early, and continuously as he grew up. So, he's much better. But if we wait, knowing good and well that things don't just get better on their own. So, even with, like, PTSD becoming bipolar disorder. And then, it increasing into schizophrenia and—We want to catch it early, and deal with it early, so that we, uh, can be a, can be better and functional. But, back in when I was a kid, 30 years ago, yeah, there was no black people going to therapy. Go, go to church.

Paul: Pray it away.

Tonya: (Chuckles) Pray it away.

Paul: Oh, man. That one, that one really—I'm, I pray, I believe in prayer. But prayer doesn’t work for, uh, you know, you can't pray diabetes away. And you can't pray clinical depression—

Tonya: No, you cannot.

Paul: —uh, away.

Tonya: No, you cannot.

Paul: You can pray for, uh, you know, uh, god to, uh, help show you the path to get better. But, um—

Tonya: Or give you the strength to deal with the issues to get better.

Paul: Yeah. To ask for help, or … you know.

Tonya: You can't pray it away.

Paul: Yeah. Any other thing, conversations that you’ve had to have with your son, um, or moments you can recall watching the news together, you know, with Michael Brown or …

Tonya: You know, all of that, I started being really honest about my upbringing, too, around the time when my son was, uh, 13. He had a friend that wound up, uh, getting 12 years, uh, in DJJ, 11 years in DJJ, uh, when he was 13, for sexting, right? And—

Paul: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on.

Tonya: Yeah. For sexting.

Paul: A kid got—

Tonya: Yeah.

Paul: —11 years—

Tonya: You know it's a federal crime. It's … yeah.

Paul: Even though you're a child.

Tonya: Right. But, you know that's a crime. I used to make him, um, actually read laws that pertain to teenagers on my laptop, when new laws would come out. That's how much in fear that I am, I have been about my son winding up in some situation with law enforcement. So, a friend of his got caught up in a sexting scandal—it was a scandal, actually. And, um, we had moved out to southern California, so this was going in the Bay area. And after it happened, I asked him. I said, "If this would not have happened, would you still, would you listen to me? Or did you always think that I was just some nagging mom." And he was, like, "Kinda like you're just a nagging mom." And, I'm not happy this happened to his friend, but if it is something that triggered him into understanding that the words that are coming out of my mouth are important, it's because I have other things to do besides just being a nagging mom. That he should take heed to some of these things that I say. And with that, I started being a lot more open about my youth and drugs and the things that I've seen. So, when he's watching, also, these things with the Michael Browns and Trayvon Martin … Some of those things resonated with him. And even though it's not … Even, it, it's not in his behavior to do something for the police to wind up doing anything, um, menacing to him, it's a possibility. But there's a lot of things that are a possibility, right?

Paul: Yeah. There's what should be and what is.

Tonya: Right. So, looking at those situations, but I'm also able to bring him back to things that have happened to me, that are not supposed to happen. So we can go through a plethora of scenarios that are not supposed to happen. But in the real world, stuff happens! And you wanna do as much as you can to keep yourself out of situations, but making sure that, one, you're honest, right? So that's the first things, cuz when something happens and you tell us, you want us to believe you. So your step forward from this moment on needs to be about honesty, even if it's something that you think we're gonna be upset about. Cuz the last thing you want is to call me and say I got arrested and the police did me wrong, and for me to say, "I dunno, did they? Cuz you're a liar." So don't put yourself in those types of situations. Everything that you do is about character building. So when things do happen, even though they're not supposed to, have us in the right situation so that we can move forward in our fighting stance and we know that we're standing righteously behind you, because I'm not about defending a fool. Like, it's not … And I don't do jail.

Paul: And I, and I think there is an onus on the parents to make sure that they don't use whatever that child shares with them in the future to make them feel bad about themselves. To use it as a weapon. Cuz so many families I see, vulnerability gets weaponized, and that just shuts people down, whether it's between siblings or, you know, spouses, or a parent and a child. It's, I see that destroy so many relationship, uh, the communication in so many relationships.

Tonya: And to combat that, we also share our own failures, right—

Paul: That's awesome!

Tonya: We, we've done some things, both of his parents (laughs) have done some things in our early adulthood, teenage years, that may be looked upon as, uh, deplorable. But you can bounce back, right? That's the other lesson. Sometimes, you do need to just restart. You did, you screwed up. So let's figure out how we move forward. It's not, "We're not screw-ups. We're perfect—" No. Actually, I don't know anybody that's perfect, so let me tell you what I did, so that you understand when it's … something jumps off, you can just be, like, "This is what happened," and we can deal with that, we can fix it or remedy it or, pay for whatever you broke, I dunno. But, being honest about who we are and the mistakes that we've made—even in my book, I wrote about some things that I did when I was a teenager because I was upset. And one of the things you asked me about before was my rage, right? There was a moment that really set me off, um, and it was a, it was a racial incident that took place, because I was the dark-skinned black girl. And, I was super upset about it. So, I told a lie to get this boy beat up. And it caused all kinds of havoc in town. I mean, police were involved. It was a mess. Then I, you know, after everything was all said and done, I did my apologies, told the truth. But it was such a nightmare. Was such a nightmare. But that was my, I had to own that. But it wasn't until I was an adult to understand why I was so mad about that, right? I, I DIDN'T know. I was just MAD. So angry, I was so angry. I don’t even remember feeling that much rage about other stuff. But it had a racial, uh, undertone to it, and I was so angry, because I thought I had always been a good person and good to people. So, why was somebody treating me a certain way because I was dark-skinned black girl? Oh, everything just bubbled up. So—

Paul: And so, that was the person that you got beat up?

Tonya: (Chuckles) Yep. I just, I couldn’t take it, But I, now I look back on it, I was mad about a lot of things back then, you know.

Paul: Do you remember what it was that they did that, that hurt your feelings or made you ma-, angry?

Tonya: I don’t remember exactly. He had said something that had to do with, because I was darker than some other girl and … It was even anything, like, physical that took place. It was just the—

Paul: Degrading.

Tonya: Completely. I was, I did not understand that. I thought, you know, we all live in this awesome community, and we're all friends and … No. And, of course, you know, the older we get, the more people start showing their colors or developing who they really are. So I also had to recognize, as an African-American woman, there are some people that just will not like me. I'm not the light-skinned girl. I'm not, um, Ivy league. I didn’t come from THAT family that you would want your son to marry into. So, you know, yeah. All of that stuff left me in a situation where I just felt some kind of way. And that anger just built up, and it was all bad. But I got it back under control (laughs). Got it back under control.

Paul: What do you tell your son to do if he gets pulled over?

Tonya: Oh, yeah. My husband has this conversation with him regularly. Just keep his hands on the wheel. Do exactly what they tell you to do. Don't give them a reason to shoot. That's all we got. If you have your phone, turn it on, BEFORE they get to you. Why do I have to give THOSE instructions? I don't wanna have to bury my kid. I have three sons. And, I don't even know how these parents move forward, who have had their children taken from them. But I also reflect on the fact that … there're all kinds of things that are happened in our streets these days, right? So, being able to have those kinds of conversations. MY conversation with my son is always, I don't wanna bury my son. Not from the police, not from your bad decisions, that is NOT what I want to do (chuckles). Please don't put me in that situation. I cannot promise that I will be okay. That's all I can do, is have that dialect with him. Because I don't know. And I just hope that he continues to put himself in a situation to move forward and thrive, and also be an example to his little brother. You know, he has to have those conversations, too. What are you telling them? Are you talking to them about STUFF? And, hopefully, he is and having those right conversations. But he's been a great example, you know. And as he's getting ready to go away to college, also, he's realizing that he has a lot of things going on in his mind, that he wants to pass on to him, to them. So I hear him, sometimes, having these conversations. Even just about cleanliness and being respectful.

Paul: That must be an amazing feeling, as a mom to hear that.

Tonya: And I'll NEVER tell him (both laugh)!

Paul: Well, hopefully he didn't hear us in the next room.

Tonya: I'm just saying. Hopefully he didn't. I'm, like … Somebody asked me the other day, like, "How are you feeling about that? About him leaving?" I was, like, "I like him! I just don’t wanna tell him."

Paul: But you tell him you love him, right?

Tonya: I do! Like, with a turned-up face and, like, it smells bad. But, yeah, I tell him (laughs).

Paul: Why is it make you so uncomfortable?

Tonya: I'm just kidding. That's, that's actually traditional. When I was about, uh, maybe 12, my mom had never showed us any affection. And she came to me one day, and she said, "I'm, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do a better job trying." And I was, like, "Trying what (laughs)?" Like, at this point, trying what? She said, "To be more affectionate and to say I love you." And the first time she went to hug me, and it was so awkward. Can you imagine, your mother having to make an effort to throw her arms around you and pull you into her? I smother my children like gravy. She was struggling. But by the time she had my sisters, she, you know, practice makes perfect. She was great with them. Like, they have no idea what I'm talking about. They have no idea. But this was a struggle. When I was about, right before that happened, we were at my grandfather's house for Christmas, and he had did something nice for her, right? Gave her some money or something. And she went to reach for him and grab him and hug him, and she was, like, "Thank you, Daddy!" And, she had her hair braided. He grabbed the back of her braids and damn-near pulled her to the ground, like, "Get off of me!"—

Paul Really?!

Tonya: —in front of a houseful of people. And do you know my mother got up and went outside and started crying. It, I didn't, I was, like, "What is going on right now? This is—"

Paul: Wow!

Tonya: Right. So back to, you know, my grandfather and his siblings, they do not say—We just had one of my aunt's funerals. The conversation is, they do not say I love you. They don't say it; they just show you. They didn’t grow up in the huggy-kissy (double kissing sound), love, love. It was, "I'ma do for you. I'ma work hard. I'ma make sure you got what you need. If you need to lay your head down, if you're hungry. You need some college tuition (chuckles). But don’t touch me (laughs)." So I saw it in generational form. I saw it happen with my mother and her father, and then it happened with me and my mother. So, out of 17 kids, who are all incredibly fertile, I'm sure you can imagine that this goes down generations. But, also, the hard-working part and the provide-for-you part goes down. So, you have to pick and choose what you're okay with. She finally decided she's not on-, she's not comfortable anymore, not being affectionate with her children. So she did make a commitment to herself to change that. And before she died, it was changed. I made a commitment to myself that I'm not even going to go down that path. Hugs and kisses all day. My kids hug and kiss each other, all day. And that's just what it's gonna be, so I think that's part of, when I say generational dysfunction, it's really finding the things that you’ve seen growing up or in your lineage that you're not okay with, and you change it, You change the behavior. You change what they see and how they implement that in their life. It’s possible. So for people to be, like, "I can't do that. That's not how my mom did. That's not what my dad did." We can make the change if you, if you do the work. So, you know, she started doing the work. I thought that was cool. But her dad. I've never seen that woman cry like that.

Paul: Wow.

Tonya: Broke her down, all the way.

Paul: What it the name of your book?

Tonya: "A Child's Memories of Cartoons and Murder."

Paul: That is, we have a word on the podcast—awfulsome—

Tonya: (Laughs)

Paul: —for something that is awful and awesome at the same time. And that is an awfulsome title. "Cartoons and Murder." That, that … that, what a beautifully fucked-up phrase that is.

Tonya: Man! Beautifully fucked-up—

Paul: Well done—

Tonya: I like that.

Paul: Well done. That is memorable title. And that would make me pull it down off the shelf to, uh, to look. And, the book is out.

Tonya: It's out; it's on amazon.com—

Paul: We'll put links to—

Tonya: Barnes and Noble and all that good stuff, yeah.

Paul: We'll put links to all your—

Tonya: Appreciate that. Appreciate that.

Paul: —all your stuff. And, uh, thank you so much for, uh, for your honesty and slogging through traffic to come here. I appreciate it.

Tonya: I, I haven't had a conversation this open in a long time. I appreciate it.

Paul: You're always welcome to come back.

Tonya: HEYYYYY!

Paul: Let's not push it (both laugh).

Tonya: I'm actually pretty excited, um, that I had a chance to, you know, meet you and have this conversation and hear a little bit more about your stuff, too. Because, again, you know, we all have stuff.

Paul: We all do.

Tonya: We all have stuff, and it, it kind of sits in us and festers, and, uh, comes out sometimes in ugly ways. But, we all got stuff.

Paul: Yeah. We're all, we're all works in progress.

Tonya: All. Yep.

Paul: Thank you.

End of Interview

[01:38:10] Many, many thanks to, uh, Tonya, and, uh, she said that her, her son is doing great at school, and, uh, enjoying himself except for the snow. And, um, I'm so glad our, our, paths crossed and I, I got to hear her story. So, um, I'll put links to all her social media and her book and all that stuff on, uh, under our show notes.

[01:38:34] Before I take it out with some, uh, really great surveys from you guys, um, wanna give a shout out to Mrs. Fields. I was so excited when they, uh, stepped forward to sponsor, uh, this week's episode, cuz they sent me a box of holiday goodies. And I have a little piece of a butterscotch blondie. Oh my god! Oh my god! For those of you that don't know about Mrs. Fields, (A) where have you been? But (B) they've been making delicious, delicious treats for over 40 years. I remember 35 years ago, when I worked downtown Chicago, on my lunch break, I would go and get a warm Mrs. Fields cookie. Oh my god! It's, like, my favorite thing in the world. But anyway. They got signature chocolate chip cookies, hand-crafted frosted favorites, melt-in-your-mouth brownies. They have gourmet gift tins and baskets. People would love that as a gift. I don’t know if you guys are like me, but a lot of times when it comes to buying somebody a gift, all a sudden I panic and I don’t know what it is. How can you go wrong with giving somebody cookies? So, they're baked daily. They arrive fresh, flavorful. Ordering is easy. And they can ship your gift anywhere across the US. Plus, you can add a little personal touch with a message, company logo, family photo. And they offer 100 percent customer satisfaction guarantee. So this year, send a fresh-baked gift that no one can resist. Right now, get 20 percent off your order when you go to mrsfields.com and enter promo code mental. That's 20 percent off any gift at mrsfields.com, promo code mental. And before I say it one last time, the other thing you have to eat in this holiday tin, the chocolate-covered graham crackers. HOLY smoke! And one last time: mrsfields.com, promo cold, promo cold (chuckles)? Promo code mental.

[01:40:49] Wanna also give some love to the, uh, Calm app. We've talked about them couple of times on the, on the podcast. They’ve sponsored a few of the shows. And they, uh, they just have a really great all-around app, uh, to help sleep, to help relax, to help calm, to be more present. They're the number one app for sleep, meditation, and relaxation. They were named the App of the Year last year by Apple; that's no small feat. So if you head to calm.com/mental, you get 25 percent off a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of premium programs, including sleep stories, which are bedtime tales for grown-up, uh, designed to quiet your mind and relax your body. I listen to the one narrated by Stephen Fry, who has an amazing voice, and it is about the, he described fields of lavender in France. And, you have to hear it to really … appreciate it. But, it, it, uh … it just turned me into Jell-O. There's also one with Jerome Flynn from the Games of Thrones. And, uh, you get access to guided meditations on topics like anxiety, stress, and sleep. There's soothing music, whole, whole lot more. So, for a limited time, you guys can get 25 percent off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/mental. That's "c-a-l-m" .com/mental. It includes unlimited access to all of Calm's amazing content that will have you drifting off to dreamland in no time. Get started today at calm.com/mental. Then get to sleep.

[01:42:36] All right, let's get to some surveys. This is, um … The nice thing about taking a, a week or so off from doing the surveys is that when I do jump back into 'em, there are so many great ones to, uh, to choose from. This is an awfulsome moment, uh, that I wanted to read, because it's so much echoes, um, at the end, echoes really kind of what Tonya talked about in, in her story, even though it is seemingly different. This is filled out by a woman who calls herself "Ellen." And, she writes, uh, "I wanna share some wisdom I learned from the life coach/grief counselor I started seeing after my best friend, Tim, overdosed on heroine in 2008. It absolutely ripped my life apart. I just couldn’t figure out how to put the pieces back together on my own, and after six months of drowning in grief quicksand, I finally got some help. One of the most powerful healing exercises she taught me had two parts, dealing with both the good and the bad. First, you write all the bad, shitty, horrible things about the person you love dying. I filled nine pages with how much it hurt, what a huge hole he left in my life, especially my endlessly lonely nights when we used to talk on the phone for hours. How fucking stupid and tragic and preventable it was. How angry I was at him for leaving me and not even saying goodbye, etc., etc. Then, you take the pages and destroy them somehow and try to really and symbolically just let that shit go. For part two, you write down all the awesome, wonderful, amazing, funny, kind, and loving things about person and keep them in a sacred place. I got a tin and decorated it with a picture with a ton of butterflies on it that makes me really happy when I look at it. Then, I wrote all the good stuff on little slips of paper and put them in the tin, adding to it as happy and hilarious memories popped up. For instance, when he was in high school, his big brother had this fluffy little dog that used to piss on the floor in Tim's room. After his many complaints fell on deaf ears, Tim just started (Paul chuckles) using the dog to wipe up the piss." (Chuckles) I both hate that and love that at the same time. And the dog probably didn’t care. Dogs, the stinkier, the better with dogs, as far as they're concerned. "When I'm having an especially shitty time or really missing him, I dump out all the papers and reread them as I put them back it. It never fails to bring a smile to my face and make me crack up remembering all the hysterical stuff Tim did and said, and have yet to find anything better at making me feel, REALLY … really feel his presence. Just having the tin on my table or desk gives off some much-needed position energy when I see it. Plus, it helps me remember to focus on how he lived and not how he died. I think it was instrumental in dealing with three huge parts of my grief. One, it really did help to let go of the negative shit by writing it all out and destroying it. If you keep it all that inside, it has a way of festering and getting stuck. Two, I was so desperately afraid of forgetting things, and forgetting little pieces of him. Writing little memories of him when I thought of them helped me feel a lot more in control of that. And I still surprise myself now with some random thing that will pop into my head and make me smile, that I haven’t written it down yet. Three, keeping the focus on the good stuff. Having his cute, little tin filling up with awesome memories of him really helped me to feel all the love that was written down inside. It was probably the first big shift in my thinking about him and being heartbroken, to thinking about him and smiling. The great thing about both parts of the exercise it that they can be done a little at a time. No giant commitment is needed to get started. You can just do it however you need to do it, whatever works for you. It's amazing how empowering it can be to just take that tiny step forward into doing something proactive with your grief instead of just 'letting it happen to you.'" I love when there are moments, uh, just seemingly, uh, serendipitous like that, how at the end of … Tonya's interview, she, she used that phrase. And then, one of the first, one of the first surveys I read after that has the same phrase. It always feels like the universe is giving us a little high-five when we, when we have those coincidences. And the other thing I, I suggest, too, is if you're going through grief, um, we did this when my mother-in-law, uh, died, I dunno, 20 years ago, and I was really, I really loved her. And, um, when we came back from the wake, I suggested that we watch, uh, old video tapes of her, because she was an inherently funny person with, uh, who would just laugh endlessly at herself. I don't know if I know any human being that took themselves less seriously than she did. And, it was just really, really nice to feel that, that energy that came across in those, those videos of, uh, of her.

[01:48:14] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a … woman who calls herself "Minkie Mouse." And she is, uh … pansexual, uh, in her 30s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, um, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. She writes, "I told my mum about the abuse a couple of years after it happened. At the time, I didn't really have the vocabulary to describe what happened, as I was very young. I just knew it felt shameful and wrong. I also dissociated for the first time during the abuse, and I felt very confused about that. I thought maybe I was having some kind of magical experience, where I left my body, which confused the matter somewhat. Anyway, I saw a documentary on TV about a priest who had been convicted of sexually abusing children, and the acts described told me that's what had happened to me. I feel guilty, because I should have told the police, and I built up the courage to confine in my mum on the drive to school one day. She pulled over onto the hard shoulder, sat very still and quiet for a moment before saying, 'Well, it's too late to do anything about it now.' Returning to the road, she never mentioned it again." I am so sorry that that is the fucking reaction that you got. That is so, you know, many people say that that is as traumatizing as the original event. Although, maybe, you are from a foreign country, because you do say "mum." And maybe your rules of the road are that if you are on the shoulder of the road, all trauma affecting a loved one has to be negated, while you fix your hair in the rear view mirror. She's been emotionally and physically abused. "I've been abused by so many people and in so many ways, that I don't really have confidence in my ability to distinguish between forms of abuse, or abuse and normal, healthy relationships. I'm working on this." I'm so glad that, that you mention that in this, because that is one of the ripples of abuse. When your normal is abusive or, at the very least, inconsistent, it is so hard to know what's toxic and what's not, and that's where, I think, therapy and support groups have really, really, helped me. And it helps us listen to our bodies. Any positive experiences with the abusers? "I was abused by older children. Teens, who in retrospect, had clearly been victims of abuse themselves. The bulk of the guilt I carry with me today is the knowledge that if I'd reported the abuse at the time, perhaps they and their younger siblings who were raped and molested alongside me, could have been saved. I didn't know. I just didn't know." And it was not your responsibility to do that. You were a child, and you were victimized, and you had zero responsibility to see it wasn’t done to other people. That is a hundred percent on the people who were doing that abuse. And that … is so common to think that and to beat ourselves up. And one of the things that my therapists says is that that is one of the ways that our brains try to make sense of things, to gain some type of semblance of control is to blame ourselves for things. Darkest thoughts: "I fantasize about being raped, which is massively fucked up, as having actually been raped, that's the last fucking thing I should want. I think my sexuality is irreparably broken." Actually, in fact, that's a really common thing we talk about all the time on the podcast is our turn-ons are very often the things in real life that cause us stress or anxiety, and it's our brain's way of trying to deal with them, by sexualizing them. It's a way of trying to gain, regain a semblance of control. And, um, if anything that should reinforce that what happened to you was, was valid. So stop shaming yourself. And, uh, I know it’s easier said than done. But, you're not alone in that one. Darkest secrets: "After being abused, I started to experiment sexually, including with other kids. I don’t know if this means that I abused them, whether it was really consensual, or what any of that even means." Well, if you are still in contact with them, you could always, uh, contact them and say, "Hey," you know. "This is kind of been on my mind, and I don’t really know if, how you felt about what happened, but, um, here are … you know. If any harm was done, I want to apologize or," you know, whatever. Because, imagine how healing that would have been for you if the person that did it to you, um, had, had said that. And I'm not equating what you did with what these older kids did to you. I'm just, um … I think you know what I'm saying. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Being spanked and whipped for real; not a sexual play. As actual punishment. I cannot become aroused unless I imagine being hurt and frightened and vulnerable. I hate it. I feel deeply ashamed of this, but I can't fix it no matter how hard I try. I've tried to train myself to be 'normal,' but nothing works." Well, first of all, I don't think there is a normal. And, I 