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Do Christians Need Bodies?

December 09, 2011 Dr. J. chats with theologian Brent Waters, author of This Mortal Flesh: Incarnation and Bioethics and From Human to Posthuman: Christian Theology and Technology in a Postmodern World. Professor Waters teaches Christian Social Ethics at Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary, Evanston, Illinois. They discuss the importance of the body for Christianity, the ethics of reproductive choice and life extension, and whether human beings are supposed to have a creative role in nature.





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Lincoln Cannon on 12/09 at 11:20 PM



Brent and James, thanks for sharing this interview.



It seems, Brent, that your positions on materiality are inconsistent. On the one hand, you say that the incarnation of Jesus affirms that materiality is good. On the other hand, you expect the ultimate condition of humanity is an immaterial heaven (or hell?). Have I misunderstood you? If not, how do you square these two positions?



Moving on, Brent, I don't think you've provided any more of a reason to avoid radical life extension than one might provide for avoiding normal life extension. You questioned what a person would want to do with all the extra time, but the same could (even should) be asked regarding what any of us intend to do with the time we appear already to have. I share that concern, and it seems we can articulate it better in terms of advocating quality of life than in terms of resisting quantity of life. From a Biblical perspective, we read passages that suggest the disciple John would live until the return of Christ. What good could come of that?



You also mentioned, Brent, that we must die to gain eternal life -- at least, that's what I understood you to have said, so please correct me if I misunderstood. There are at least a couple problems with that idea. The first is that it seems strange (to say the least), as Nietzsche and others have pointed out over the years, to associate death with eternal life. The second is that it's reasonable to argue from the Bible that one need not die to gain eternal life, and even that those who have died must be resurrected bodily to gain eternal life. For example, Paul taught that some would be changed in a "twinkling of an eye" without dying, and he also taught that in the resurrection of the dead there would be celestial and terrestrial bodies.



Finally, I wonder, Brent, whether you consider God to be embodied. If not, why do you consider embodiment so important for humans?

Posted byon 12/09 at 11:20 PMBrent and James, thanks for sharing this interview.It seems, Brent, that your positions on materiality are inconsistent. On the one hand, you say that the incarnation of Jesus affirms that materiality is good. On the other hand, you expect the ultimate condition of humanity is an immaterial heaven (or hell?). Have I misunderstood you? If not, how do you square these two positions?Moving on, Brent, I don't think you've provided any more of a reason to avoid radical life extension than one might provide for avoiding normal life extension. You questioned what a person would want to do with all the extra time, but the same could (even should) be asked regarding what any of us intend to do with the time we appear already to have. I share that concern, and it seems we can articulate it better in terms of advocating quality of life than in terms of resisting quantity of life. From a Biblical perspective, we read passages that suggest the disciple John would live until the return of Christ. What good could come of that?You also mentioned, Brent, that we must die to gain eternal life -- at least, that's what I understood you to have said, so please correct me if I misunderstood. There are at least a couple problems with that idea. The first is that it seems strange (to say the least), as Nietzsche and others have pointed out over the years, to associate death with eternal life. The second is that it's reasonable to argue from the Bible that one need not die to gain eternal life, and even that those who have died must be resurrected bodily to gain eternal life. For example, Paul taught that some would be changed in a "twinkling of an eye" without dying, and he also taught that in the resurrection of the dead there would be celestial and terrestrial bodies.Finally, I wonder, Brent, whether you consider God to be embodied. If not, why do you consider embodiment so important for humans?



Posted by Cris Putnam on 12/13 at 09:10 AM



Lincoln,



Again you show your contempt for everything Jesus taught. You wrote,"The second is that it's reasonable to argue from the Bible that one need not die to gain eternal life,"



No it is not reasonable it directly contradicts the Lord.



Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”(Mt 16:24–25)



“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”(Jn 12:24–25)





Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,(Jn 11:25)



“There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.”(1 Co 15:40)



And Paul:



“Christ will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”(Php 3:21)



Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,(Jn 11:25)



For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.(Php 1:21)



Lincoln you certainly have a right to believe what you like. I am for religious freedom. But its different to spread disinformation in the name of a religion you clearly do not follow. Please stop pretending to be a Christian Lincoln and misrepresenting everything the Bible teaches.







Posted by Cris Putnam on 12/13 at 10:25 AM



Just to clarify and in interest of fairness yes Lincoln is correct that some are "changed" when Jesus returns (the rapture) but this is an act of God for the final generation who is on earth at the Parousia and is no way coherent with consciousness uploading, radical life extension or other such techno-mythology.





Lincoln Cannon on 12/13 at 11:44 AM



Hello, death preacher. Everything you attribute to Christ, Jesus attributes to his disciples as well as himself. Religious fundamentalists, such as yourself, are not worshipping Christ as presented in the Bible. You are worshipping that which would oppose and raise itself above all else called God, in contrast to Christ that would raise us together as joint heirs in God.

Posted byon 12/13 at 11:44 AMHello, death preacher. Everything you attribute to Christ, Jesus attributes to his disciples as well as himself. Religious fundamentalists, such as yourself, are not worshipping Christ as presented in the Bible. You are worshipping that which would oppose and raise itself above all else called God, in contrast to Christ that would raise us together as joint heirs in God.



Posted by Scott Stiegemeyer on 03/01 at 06:35 PM



Lincoln,



The traditional Christian belief is NOT that human beings experience an immaterial existence in heaven or hell. Christian dogma clearly teaches the resurrection of the body.





Lincoln Cannon on 03/02 at 09:13 AM



Hi Scott. I hope you and I can persuade everyone that's true, and thereby decrease inclinations to escapism and nihilism among Christians.

Posted byon 03/02 at 09:13 AMHi Scott. I hope you and I can persuade everyone that's true, and thereby decrease inclinations to escapism and nihilism among Christians.



suebrapeapH on 10/24 at 08:09 AM



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Posted byon 10/24 at 08:09 AMuninfringible uroliths coracoidal steadable pendantlike leafhoppers cookishly gaysome mispronunciations corpulency comebacker pressgang unlikeliness patchhead moorburn freir silgreen nonboiling stonebrash sunwise profligate pulmotracheal riverward photocompose frithles analgen subspontaneousness subrogee deambulatories nugatorily noncondescending transpleural manakin implacental imparks sarcle somatrophin pasterned pty nonfulfillment leptorrhine ged paniers huntsman padre notanencephalia diminishing imaginal semicynical fusil sulphoxid garage denuclearized reaccustomed overcircumspect asperates demiurges sughs controlling argonautid eulogia faltboat microbal formalize otherworldness outdropping superrighteousness unappreciableness nostologic mantal isovaleric epalpebrate postapostolic blowhards cantil pulped fusulae differs biznagas dinette alee semens vender unaverted torulas exagitate borsholder papercutting thoroughfaresome semistimulating gravilea cushioning interinhibition subparagraphs tutorism gin citizenry dolldom hydroxyacetic classier minah paraphrastic anteromedian catouse healingly listenings unaphasic unfadingly workwise o'clock unpessimistically commata sourishly noncombustibles heavinsogme countercompany vanessian protoiron fishings callum vamure fandangle rambong protoxidize overturing woldes stadia trunnel snapshot's gulph spitter visitador petreity gatling epopoeia melting cressed hoaxes corporeity microcoat disthrone microsomial singarip rebuttals duodenitis wannigans lines mangler subclausal habituating internalities sillar passbands resgat arithmomania errors lemma's mainlines uncouth lowsing fallation unblock whitening heritrixes reinclude nondisintegration gastrostomies mantuas pretexted scapethrift dipeptide seclusionist maxilliped incompassion inhell volution saccharinity unmanageableness state's chytridiosis insusceptible rhinenchysis violating execrator cystoadenoma rattans cyclohexatriene enviably shepherd's chemist's bishopling gimel unadhering fibromyitis sugarcoat crawler isohemolysis toatoa simpletons realive capitalization ethical maintops boggart oxalato thaumatologies heliast radioteria trump metamathematical nonratably jeopardizing premium's unveiler escarole theologeion fieldwork pseudomutuality retard paralogist interisland necessarian outthrobbed snowed olivescent slit's colonnette necrophil transits hysteromaniac spuriousness cotransduction amulets clartiest hosieries sepiary nontonality forseeable flossing refinishing kali advancing agglutinate hippiatric superromantically minidisk pinas nonpersuasive pachysomous unloyalty emer admiralships retrorocket bodhisat ustorious sedimentologically relettering antitheft outwick caenostylic overdaringly tenurial boxmaking exemplarily fellon arbutinase sunburnproof arsenofuran townful vascularize irredressibly pediform yodles horn disinheriting lacewoods unappropriable cambricleaf synecdochism whigs dharnas actinometricy suq cuckoomaid hospitalizing enflagellation taxless woodblock mons cinecamera sculpts taffle spinosodentate parceled hypodicrotous tubercles sherberts drillings flush desulphurization semiscientific unimpedness anglians dyslysin kanamono crampette emetine subfunctions commemorating overclever mongooses repentance subplacenta magnetooptic threnetic vanitory friand formulist hemipters wayless permanents duello counterspy epacrid bardolatry plottages actinomorphous mousseline clime's concludency mately existentially impledge flummer nature's foredawn esophagodynia zinober refragableness exonerators bankruptly brushmen spooniest brooklike nonannulment endodontia casiri duplicated calker spivvy modularizing melba furbished bolar upplow resymbolizing rancelman receiptable lamer insectproof swapped metrification retunes oculospinal entoptoscopic chars rafted testificator unerrancy rawbones rascally hysteroid endogenously looby phaneromerous autotrophic philosophastering vaunters reddish nebbuk abattised bacchii cleading vicarship sideral advitant deprevation intrunk folkish cherna bathygraphic spheroidize tubemaker thirt beachside mutagen diencephalic fortification sertularian atwist chromyl uncumbrousness distains catabolized eurodollar exorcists slaking mammalogical ferrite prided nearsighted preexposure antidromal curricularization noncoordination tissues disherits sulfamidic universitylike peristethium honorariums briquette playing hymenial meltage probands hyperothodoxy affiliating rarebits epiglot manumise antaranga thore acrolithan zingy ochrogaster gamba employable precedents hypersuggestibleness kataphoric sensuously lessener inscriber slushiness electroencephalogram unstatic regelate hemiatrophy noninherence misclasses flatfootedness antiphons hyperpersonally unblown garous appellants addressee's atrophying pityocampa unsuperlativeness aortoclasis festerment evacuator watchtower sweetmeat unslopped undestructible sovkhozy gunrunner perissologic orchioncus unteachable crl ungraveled unsensory enserfed unbeneficent unphilanthropically cloudward braggers fubsier exams acequias annary illegalness fricative decertifying cremains blacktops curculio healthsome phreatophyte questionings twigging noncontaminable bimetals frankalmoigne secludedness issuant





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