“So you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden,” Cuomo said.

“Of course I did,” Giuliani replied.

“You just said you didn’t!” said Cuomo, incredulous.

It was Giuliani’s initial denial that was most incredible. The former New York mayor has hardly made any secret of his quest. The Washington Post reported in May, “Trump lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani had a lengthy meeting last week with a former Ukrainian diplomat as part of aggressive efforts aimed at gathering information to undermine Democrats in the United States.” Giuliani did not deny the report.

In August, The New York Times reported on further meetings in Madrid: “Mr. Giuliani said he was acting on his own as a private citizen, with the knowledge and assistance of the State Department. He would not say whether Mr. Trump approved—or is aware of—the effort.” According to State, the department put Giuliani in touch with an aide to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at the aide’s request.

It’s hard to believe that Trump didn’t know his personal lawyer was traveling to Spain to gather dirt on his leading Democratic rival, though even if he didn’t explicitly know, it hardly matters. As Jeffrey Goldberg has written, and as Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report reinforced, Trump operates in the manner of a Mafia boss, knowing what he can leave implicit for aides to do.

Read: Trump’s plea for Russia to hack the U.S. government

Beyond that, the Zelensky administration would have reasonably concluded that Giuliani was acting at Trump’s behest as well as on his behalf. Zelensky would also have known the precarious position he is in, with Russia menacing his country; and he would have known about Trump’s many positive statements about Russian President Vladimir Putin, including shrugging his shoulders at the annexation of Crimea. Beyond that, Ukraine was directly trying to obtain $250 million in aid from the United States—which Trump could approve or stop.

At a press conference earlier this month, after Vice President Mike Pence met with Zelensky, a reporter asked Pence, “Did you discuss Joe Biden at all during that meeting yesterday with the Ukrainian president? And No. 2, can you assure Ukraine that the holdup of that money has absolutely nothing to do with efforts, including by Rudy Giuliani, to try to dig up dirt on the Biden family?” Pence flatly denied discussing Biden. But he never answered the second question. A few days later, the Trump administration released the money to Ukraine, and Zelensky thanked Trump.

Today the Daily Beast quoted an aide to the Ukrainian interior minister saying that the country would investigate Biden if asked by the United States.

“Clearly, Trump is now looking for kompromat to discredit his opponent Biden, to take revenge for his friend Paul Manafort, who is serving seven years in prison,” Anton Geraschenko said. “We do not investigate Biden in Ukraine, since we have not received a single official request to do so.”