ChrisJ



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Full MemberActivity: 146Merit: 100 Bitcoin Vs the Banks debate - your ideas please March 21, 2014, 06:41:20 PM

Last edit: March 27, 2014, 09:49:48 PM by ChrisJ #1



This is what the venue looks like on the inside:





It has a 16x9 foot screen behind it as well on which I plan to place Mr Antonopoulos : )



The concept A live adversarial debate on the state of Bitcoin following the hacks on its ecosystem. Here are some initial thoughts:



The issue I want to address is that while Satoshi got the protocol locked down pretty tight his innovation didn't allow for human error. It's all very well having a really secure piece of software but if exchanges etc have sloppy code then it is all undermined.



Trowing technology at some of the problems we face is not going to make them go away. Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?



Code is the new law. Are coders the right people to be deciding what's right and what should be legislated?



Barclays have PingIt and there are many other emerging p2p payment networks so is Bitcoin even necessary as a standalone currency? Why can't the banking system simply integrate Bitcoins open source code in to their existing infrastructure?



I do not hold these views myself, I just want to address them as I hear them being raised by critics and think they need exploration.



Andreas Antonopoulos and I will be taking part, Max Keiser will be appearing later in the evening but have asked if he can attend earlier. I even have received interest from Barclays and Lloyds to take part in the debate.



I want your ideas, suggestions and questions that you would like to see addressed. I can select key questions from this thread and raise them on the day.



EDIT 27/3: Speakers for the panel are now confirmed and 110 people already signed up



EDIT 22/3: Andreas has had to cancel along with some other speaking arrangements



Am working hard now on finding a replacement, any ideas/help are welcome. I'd really like to get everyone's feedback on something. I have managed to get some free space London's O2 which is a huge venue and a bit of a coup. I know I am insane and have thrown myself in waaay too far at the wrong side of the pool but I'm doing it anyway and want to get people here involved.This is what the venue looks like on the inside:I do not hold these views myself, I just want to address them as I hear them being raised by critics and think they need exploration.will be appearing later in the evening but have asked if he can attend earlier. I even have received interest from Barclays and Lloyds to take part in the debate.I can select key questions from this thread and raise them on the day.EDIT 22/3: Andreas has had to cancel along with some other speaking arrangements https://twitter.com/aantonop/status/447102361815617536 Am working hard now on finding a replacement, any ideas/help are welcome. I want to make the world better than I found it



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Tron



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Full MemberActivity: 588Merit: 107 Re: Bitcoin Vs the Banks debate feat Andreas Antonopoulos - your ideas please March 21, 2014, 07:27:48 PM #2 >> Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?



All commerce is a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another. Voluntary redistribution of wealth is a good thing.



When properly structured, the wealth flows to those that truly add value, and only voluntarily based on a win-win transaction.



I'll leave it up the reader to decide whether the current banking system, and 'quantitative easing' meet that criteria.







The question I would like asked and answered:



"Why would a bank not accept a business involved in Bitcoin? It looks and smells like capricious behavior. It seems to me that the bank's job should be to make sure deposits are safe, and only withdrawn by the owner directly or through a negotiable instrument. I understand turning down a loan request because the perceived risk might be higher than say a widget manufacturer. But where is their risk with deposits and withdrawals?"



Tron

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coinft



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Full MemberActivity: 187Merit: 100 Re: Bitcoin Vs the Banks debate feat Andreas Antonopoulos - your ideas please March 21, 2014, 07:50:15 PM #3 Quote from: Tron on March 21, 2014, 07:27:48 PM >> Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?



All commerce is a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another. Voluntary redistribution of wealth is a good thing.



When properly structured, the wealth flows to those that truly add value, and only voluntarily based on a win-win transaction.



I'll leave it up the reader to decide whether the current banking system, and 'quantitative easing' meet that criteria.







The question I would like asked and answered:



"Why would a bank not accept a business involved in Bitcoin? It looks and smells like capricious behavior. It seems to me that the bank's job should be to make sure deposits are safe, and only withdrawn by the owner directly or through a negotiable instrument. I understand turning down a loan request because the perceived risk might be higher than say a widget manufacturer. But where is their risk with deposits and withdrawals?"



Tron

Founder, CoinCPA





If you are quietly involved in criminal activities it is unwise to draw additional attention and publicity by offering services officials might take an interest in. If you are quietly involved in criminal activities it is unwise to draw additional attention and publicity by offering services officials might take an interest in.

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NewbieActivity: 9Merit: 0 Re: Bitcoin Vs the Banks debate - your ideas please March 22, 2014, 05:56:33 PM #6 Hi Chris, I've DM'd you separately but thought I'd contribute here to get other people involved in the dialogue. I've got a few main points that I personally would like to see debated in an adversarial way, just to get the ball rolling:



1. Bitcoin as a force for good I think so much of the MSM on Bitcoin so far has been around the 'get rich quick' and potentially criminal uses for Bitcoin (eg all the headlines about Silk Road, etc) while there has been little discussion of the properly democratic benefits that can come when currencies are decentralised and handed to the people who use them. This week's interview with Elizabeth from BitPesa on The Keiser Report was a good example - until I listened to this, I had no idea of the sheer scale of charges that Western Union impose on some of the poorest people in the world, and which they will no longer have to bear once BitPesa is up and running. How can the banks possibly defend this?



2. Does it matter whether Bitcoin succeeds? This sounds like a contentious question but surely it is the protocol that is the interesting and revolutionary thing, not whether one particular coin succeeds. This should be a wider debate about cryptos in general, not just the obvious one.



3. Decentralisation The transparency of the blockchain makes it awesome. Creditors have an unprecedented degree of access to records of transactions, which is helping people get to the bottom of the Gox debacle quickly. Try making a crooked bank's books available after the event. What can the banks offer in comparison in terms of access to their information?



4. Are the banks running scared? If the banks - as they say repeatedly - are not bothered by virtual currencies, why are Goldman Sachs etc bothering to write lengthy reports? They are saying and doing two different things.



I think what you are trying to do at the O2 is amazing and I hope you can involve enough people to give this event the publicity it deserves.

ChrisJ



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Full MemberActivity: 146Merit: 100 Re: Bitcoin Vs the Banks debate - your ideas please March 23, 2014, 09:11:03 AM #13 Quote from: CountMyCrypto on March 22, 2014, 05:56:33 PM surely it is the protocol that is the interesting and revolutionary thing, not whether one particular coin succeeds.



I completely agree. One of the central criticisms of Bitcoin is that most of its price is mostly backed by a speculative sentiment, people are just waiting to get rich off of circumstance and relying on the effort of others (developers and entrepreneurs). So raising the topic this way may help us explore what really lies beneath the price because we can talk about the core values behind the protocol and the community and trust it takes to sustain it over time to gain trust.



Quote from: CountMyCrypto on March 22, 2014, 05:56:33 PM 3. Decentralisation The transparency of the blockchain makes it awesome. Creditors have an unprecedented degree of access to records of transactions, which is helping people get to the bottom of the Gox debacle quickly. Try making a crooked bank's books available after the event. What can the banks offer in comparison in terms of access to their information?



This point is very well made, I am definitely putting that one in. Imagine if Lehman Bros had a blockchain.



Quote from: CountMyCrypto on March 22, 2014, 05:56:33 PM 4. Are the banks running scared? If the banks - as they say repeatedly - are not bothered by virtual currencies, why are Goldman Sachs etc bothering to write lengthy reports? They are saying and doing two different things.



Yes we can bring up issues like fees and cheque kiting and ask them to justify themselves.



I completely agree. One of the central criticisms of Bitcoin is that most of its price is mostly backed by a speculative sentiment, people are just waiting to get rich off of circumstance and relying on the effort of others (developers and entrepreneurs). So raising the topic this way may help us explore what really lies beneath the price because we can talk about the core values behind the protocol and the community and trust it takes to sustain it over time to gain trust.This point is very well made, I am definitely putting that one in. Imagine if Lehman Bros had a blockchain.Yes we can bring up issues like fees and cheque kiting and ask them to justify themselves. I want to make the world better than I found it



ChrisJ



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Full MemberActivity: 146Merit: 100 Re: Bitcoin Vs the Banks debate - your ideas please March 23, 2014, 10:05:07 AM #15 Quote from: acoindr on March 22, 2014, 07:23:09 PM

Quote from: ChrisJ on March 21, 2014, 06:41:20 PM Code is the new law.



No, law is the law, and no law means anything anyway unless followed and enforced.

No, law is the law, and no law means anything anyway unless followed and enforced.

Thank-you for taking the time to deal with each point. I just want to focus on this one for now, I don't mean the law literally, I am talking about human enforceable rules.



I take as my assumption that there are two kinds of laws in our world, human laws which can be broken and natural laws which cannot. There is also an assumption that human laws rely on enforcement in order to be effective. When you code you are baking rules in to an experience in such a way that it makes it very difficult to break without hacking the system itself.



Andreas and



I look forward to hearing your suggestions. Thank-you for taking the time to deal with each point. I just want to focus on this one for now, I don't mean the law literally, I am talking about human enforceable rules.I take as my assumption that there are two kinds of laws in our world, human laws which can be broken and natural laws which cannot. There is also an assumption that human laws rely on enforcement in order to be effective. When you code you are baking rules in to an experience in such a way that it makes it very difficult to break without hacking the system itself.Andreas and other commentators have said that the regulation of Bitcoin lies in the code itself. So on this basis is it not relevant to ask who decides on who makes those laws or rules if you prefer?I look forward to hearing your suggestions. I want to make the world better than I found it

