We’re living in a golden age of TV drama. Mad Men, Game of Thrones, Dexter, Boardwalk Empire — Netflix queues around the world bulge with award-winning series.

Storyboard Podcast: Episode 87 [dewplayer: https://downloads.wired.com/podcasts/assets/Storyboard/Storyboard_087.mp3]

Among the lecherous ad execs and sword-swinging lords, however, is America’s favorite greenhorn meth maker, Breaking Bad’s Walter White. In this edition of the Storyboard podcast, show creator and showrunner Vince Gilligan talks to Wired Senior Editor Jason Tanz about the AMC show’s upcoming fifth and final season.

“There’s a lot of ways to entertain people,” Gilligan says in the interview, which contains brief mature language and possible spoilers. “You can make them feel good; you make them feel bad.”

He discusses how shows like The Sopranos and The Wire helped pave the way for bleak dramas with unlikable characters. He also goes into how he and his staff pull off Breaking Bad’s cliffhangers, how the writers get the characters out of seemingly hopeless fiascos, and how they construct a storyline that depresses the hell out of viewers, but keeps them coming back for more.

Season 5 of Breaking Bad premieres July 15 on AMC.