Garry Kasparov knows what it is to oppose an authoritarian ruler. The longtime world chess champion was arrested twice in his native Russia for opposing Vladimir Putin. Since 2013, he has lived with family in self-imposed exile in New York City, and is now the chair of the Human Rights Foundation. Winter Is Coming, Kasparov’s prescient book detailing Putinism’s rise and transnational menace, came out in paperback recently. Deep Thinking, his new book on chess and artificial intelligence, comes out May 2.

A Ronald Reagan and John McCain supporter, Kasparov is a critic of Trumpism. In this interview, Kasparov and I discussed Putin, Trump, the Steele dossier, and what chess can teach you about politics.

This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Alexander Bisley

Writer Masha Gessen warns us: “Assume the worst.”

Garry Kasparov

Playing the calm voice of reason isn’t my strong suit despite my chess background, but it’s important to focus on what matters most so you don’t lose track in all the noise and chaos that Trump creates so effortlessly. During the campaign, even during the GOP primary, I wrote extensively about the menacing and, to me, familiar nature of Trump’s rhetoric. He used, and continues to use, the language of the strongman. Things are terrible and only he can solve the problems, we are surrounded by enemies and only he can protect you, etc. It’s very similar to the framing that Putin and other dictators use to justify their power.

The US president shouldn’t need to speak like a tyrant. But Trump’s still obsessed with legitimacy; hence his constant falsehoods about overwhelming victory and crowd size. You have an entirely unqualified president with autocratic instincts and dangerous advisers, who is quite possibly compromised by a malign foreign interest.

We gave Putin a chance in Russia, and it was the last free election we ever had. It’s far better to act and later admit you overreacted than to do nothing until it’s impossible to act. Still, the United States is not Russia; institutions are far stronger. They’ve just grown atrophied through lack of rigorous use, like an immune system that hasn’t been under a direct attack in so long it can’t respond to an infection.

Alexander Bisley

What can Trump opponents do?

Garry Kasparov

You have to reinforce the institutions, steadily and legally, and work through them. If you go too far, and react violently, it will only play into the hands of the Trump administration, which is already portraying all opposition as paid agitators and other ridiculousness straight from Putin’s playbook. When I talk about these things on Twitter or Facebook, I immediately receive a bunch of “Here too!” responses from people living in other authoritarian regimes, from Venezuela to Vietnam.

Riots will only frighten the “moderate middle” you will need as allies sooner or later. If Trump convinces them with lies that the opposition is controlled by dangerous thugs, you’re going to have eight years of Trump and another of his kind to follow. Stick to the facts, repeat them boldly and frequently, so his supporters see the would-be emperor has no bathrobe!

The courts are important, but things won’t really change unless enough Republicans start to see Trump as a liability to their fundraising and reelection chances. That could be quite soon if he can’t fulfill his many campaign promises. Making him look like a loser is crucial. Either the GOP will turn on him or he will be chastened and more likely to compromise. If a demagogue succeeds in claiming credit for wins and scapegoating his enemies for losses, he’s very hard to stop.

Trump will continue to push the limits, to find the cracks in the system that constrains him. America is finding out the hard way that much of its government is based on tradition and the honor system, and not explicit laws. There will be a crisis every day.

Everyone must do what they can themselves and not wait for others to act. If you want change, you have to initiate action, even at a personal level that might seem insignificant. As the motto of Soviet dissidents went: “Do what you must, and so be it.”

Alexander Bisley

“The biggest election-related scandal since Watergate occurred last year, and it has largely disappeared from the political-media landscape of Washington,” David Corn wrote this week at Mother Jones. “According to the consensus assessment of US intelligence agencies, Russian intelligence, under the orders of Vladimir Putin, mounted an extensive operation to influence the 2016 campaign to benefit Donald Trump.”

Garry Kasparov

It is a scandal that this isn’t the biggest scandal in Washington. It illustrates my point about how the constant outrage and chaos Trump creates can work to his advantage by distracting from far more serious things, like his conflicts of interest and Russia interfering in the US election. Trump obviously doesn’t want it looked into, since even discussing it undermines the legitimacy he’s obsessed with. Plus, he publicly called for Russia to hack more!

The subject also makes nearly every elected politician nervous. But this is a matter of US national security, not simply rehashing the 2016 election. There must be a special investigation. Ignoring it is the worst option, since it only encourages Putin, and others, to do more of this, as is already happening in France and Germany.

Alexander Bisley

“For somebody who was inconsistent in almost everything, being so consistent in defending Putin raises my suspicions,” you said last time we spoke. Now Rex Tillerson, who is a big business partner of Putin’s, as secretary of state?

Garry Kasparov

I still want to know who suggested Tillerson’s name, if not one of Trump’s Russia contacts, perhaps someone with the Kissinger group that is working with both sides. Tillerson is a serious guy, not a lightweight or crony like so many of Trump’s nominees. If he is actually dedicated to serving the United States, he could be a moderating force on Trump, because he won’t let Trump push him around and his leaving would be a huge embarrassment after such a battle to confirm him.

Maybe I’m too optimistic, of course, and he’s just there to facilitate oil deals and lift sanctions for Putin and Exxon Mobil. If the worst case is true, the circumstantial case for Trump being compromised by Russian intelligence will be incredibly strong. Don’t forget Wilbur Ross for secretary of commerce, who has big dealings with Putin oligarch Viktor Vekselberg.

GOP politicians are putting party over principles by supporting Trump so loyally, and by so doing, they reveal they don’t actually have any principles at all.

Alexander Bisley

What do you think of the controversial Steele dossier, which alleges that Russia has been “cultivating, supporting and assisting Trump for at least five years”? (The British author, former M16 agent Christopher Steele, has reportedly gone into hiding, “terrified.”)

Garry Kasparov

Even if only half of it is true, it’s incredibly incriminating: Some items have already been verified, so it can’t be discarded purely as slander or fantasy. Second, some items are likely spurious and easily disproved, which Trump’s defenders will use to say that it’s all a fiction. They will shift the conversation to the one or two parts that have been falsified and discredit the entire thing. This is also the pattern for weakly reported news stories in general, and why the media has to be twice as careful verifying things with regard to Trump instead of jumping at shadows to get a scoop and discrediting themselves in the eyes of the public. If facts are reduced to being considered nothing more than partisan opinions, we are in deep trouble.

Alexander Bisley

Then there’s Putin’s Borat defense: “I find it hard to believe that he [Trump] rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world.”

Garry Kasparov

Putin has always enjoyed gutter talk, and has this in common with Trump. He does it intentionally to burnish his tough-guy, common man image.

Alexander Bisley

How about Trump’s “Muslim ban”?

Garry Kasparov

There are many levels with which to like or dislike Trump’s executive order, and on most of them, I’m a critic. As an immigrant, if not quite a refugee, to the US myself, I’m generally very sympathetic to people forced to flee their homelands, as my family and I escaped ethnic pogroms against Armenians in Baku, Azerbaijan, in 1990.

It should concern every American that Trump was so hasty to sacrifice security for a quick PR move with his base. Even the biggest fans of doing this should be alarmed by how incompetently it was handled.

Immigration has always been one of America’s greatest strengths, both for its reputation in the world and in practical matters of economic and cultural wealth. Being the destination of choice for so many of the world’s best and brightest has been a huge advantage, and anything that detracts from that “brain magnet” will hurt the US economically, including the workers who benefit from the startups and other jobs created by immigrants. Trump’s executive order has a big symbolic effect of making the US less attractive as a destination. Many Trump supporters will see this as a feature, not a bug, but this is ignorance and xenophobia.

Living in the USSR, the image of the United States as a shining city on a hill and beacon of hope to the oppressed was very real to me. I understand that many Americans, especially on the left, may think this is corny mythology, but don’t try to tell that to immigrants and refugees! Even if you are cynical, there is no denying this image is a big element of American soft power in the world, as a nation to be envied and imitated despite its flaws.

Alexander Bisley

Trump’s claims of “3 to 5 million” illegal election ballots cast with zero evidence. Trump’s unprecedented attacks on judicial independence, and the judges who have ruled his Muslim ban illegal. Appointing a racist attorney general, Jeff Sessions, opposed in the strongest terms by Coretta Scott King. What do you think Trump will do next?

Garry Kasparov

He wants to be loved; he wants to please his base. He will continue to push the things that got him elected, no matter how destructive or impossible they turn out to be. The ridiculous wall, revoking Obamacare, attacking immigrants. It’s important to fight back with better ideas, not just denunciation.

But honestly, the carnage in America isn’t my greatest worry. Even the power of the presidency has considerable limits inside US borders. It’s the rest of the world I’m more concerned about, because it may look very different very quickly with Trump stomping around. If he continues this “America first” claptrap, regional powers like Russia, China, and Iran will grab the chance to expand influence, including militarily. The European Union may fall apart, and the far right may continue to make advances across Europe.

Alexander Bisley

Worst case domestically?

Garry Kasparov

Trump finds excuses to take emergency powers, crack down on the free press and political opposition, the real dictatorship playbook. That would lead to a constitutional crisis.

Alexander Bisley

“Maybe we should see more participation from Silicon Valley. They have immense power. Where are they in this current political turmoil?” you told me in late November. Since then, the Valley's most notable contribution has been sycophancy at Trump Tower.

Garry Kasparov

Many of them just want to play gods in their Silicon Valley Elysium as if DC doesn’t matter. Now suddenly they have to choose sides, make statements, take action, and they are unsure. Should they try to advise and influence an incredibly ignorant administration from within, or stay outside and use pressure? Trump is president, and even if you don’t like his agenda you can’t hope he fails completely because he could take the rest of us with him! If the Valley’s customers and users demand it, they will respond, but I doubt it’s the place to look for leadership.

Alexander Bisley

I recommend following your Twitter account. Could you elaborate on this incisive tweet about political disinformation?

The point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth. — Garry Kasparov (@Kasparov63) December 13, 2016

Garry Kasparov

I still see that tweet from mid-December in my mentions regularly. Dealing with propaganda and misinformation campaigns is a new fight for most Americans, but it’s familiar ground for me and other Russians. You can see dystopian novels climbing the best-seller lists in the US because people are trying to educate themselves, and that’s where I’m trying to help. A lot of it was included in Winter Is Coming, but even I didn’t foresee Trump!

Modern dictatorships have become far more sophisticated still in how to achieve their ends. They learned that by constant bombardment, your senses become overwhelmed. You start to doubt, to shrug your shoulders, to tune out, and that makes you vulnerable. Instead of pushing one lie, one fake, they can push a dozen, or a hundred, and that’s pretty good odds against one lonely truth. They win when you say: “Who can be sure what really happened?”

Alexander Bisley

What do you think of calls to impeach Trump?

Garry Kasparov

It’s a little early for that. Build a case, follow the money, track the conflicts of interest, the Russian connections, the family deals, etc. Screaming, “impeach!” every time Trump tweets something that’s probably illegal or unconstitutional isn’t a strategy.

Alexander Bisley

"Chess is the most violent of all sports. There’s no sport as competitive — as rough — as chess. The only goal in chess is to prove your superiority over the other guy, and the most important superiority, the most total one, is the superiority of the mind," you said in 1989. How did chess prepare you for politics?

Garry Kasparov

I used to joke that chess was terrible preparation for politics in Putin’s Russia because in chess we have fixed rules and uncertain results, but in Putin’s elections it’s exactly the opposite. But for personal development, chess developed my ability to plan, to look for connections, to find weak spots, to see the big picture.

Alexander Bisley

You still play chess to unwind. What can we learn from chess to oppose Trumpism?

Garry Kasparov

One lesson is to not to play desperately if your position is worse but still reasonable. Lashing out wildly in an inferior position usually only hastens defeat. Meanwhile, solid, stubborn defense can demoralize the attacker, make him lose confidence. When that happens, the tables can turn. Keep fighting, stay steady, keep morale high — and public protests are good for all of these things.

Alexander Bisley

Being an anti-Putin dissident is dangerous. Your pro-democracy colleague Vladimir Kara-Murza is currently fighting for his life in Russia, suspected of being poisoned by a member or ally of the Putin regime. What do you do to relax?

Garry Kasparov

I try to follow my sense of duty and then accept the consequences as they come. You have to live with that choice — and no defense mechanism can offer a true escape. I prioritize certain values over personal safety, so I have to live with the reality that creates.

I have four kids, two of them from previous marriages. Spending time with them gives me tremendous pleasure. I feel very good I now have the opportunity in my life to concentrate on some family occasions. That’s a bright side of my life now here in New York.

I’m always happy to consume information. There’s so much to learn now about the world. The world is changing. I’m always looking for the opportunity to learn something new and share it with those that I love and I care for.

Alexander Bisley writes for Playboy, the Guardian, GQ, BBC, and other outlets. Anthony Bourdain told him America’s opioid crisis was a notable factor in Trump’s election.