QueenMortis Profile Joined May 2012 59 Posts #2 Holly crap that's one awesome guide.

Paljas Profile Joined October 2011 Germany 6740 Posts #3 some things just will never change.



thanks for the guide, my zvt is pretty horrible right know, i will give this a try.

looks very promising.

MrMatt Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 222 Posts #4 lots of info to go through here. Looking forward to trying it out for some different styles vs terran.

WindCalibur Profile Blog Joined February 2008 Canada 938 Posts #5 I do not play zerg enough to understand all the specific timings (I play Terran) but what makes this build different than the standard roach/bane eco aggression after 3 base saturation? Also, I do not see how this stops drops. Can't the terran just mass a crap time of bunkers and mines and play extremely defensive while sending a few units via dropships to disrupt your economy?

A Wild Sosd Profile Joined September 2012 Australia 421 Posts #6 Speaking as a T the first or second step are enough to make some people leave the game. Really not looking forward to running into this on Ladder Bomber | TaeJa | Life | Scarlett I Twitter: @SosdSC2

Antylamon Profile Joined March 2011 United States 1980 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-13 00:02:00 #7 Why didn't any of those Terrans have any Tanks? That could have denied everything in the second barrel. Ideally.



I guess it's probably just that you're slightly metagaming and I don't play standard TvZ.

Qwyn Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 2772 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-13 00:15:39 #8 I was just thinking about this.



I knew you'd bring the TBB back eventually, lol.



This is really fucking sick, Tang. You've really outdone yourself. "Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0

HanSomPa Profile Joined December 2012 United States 87 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-13 00:10:06 #9 On June 13 2013 08:01 WindCalibur wrote:

I do not play zerg enough to understand all the specific timings (I play Terran) but what makes this build different than the standard roach/bane eco aggression after 3 base saturation?



This hits much earlier. Here's the rundown. Assuming you go CC first or Reaper FE/1 Rax FE. As your second orbital is morphing, his ling aggression hits. This hits a narrow timing window before or around 6:00 which is before Hellions I believe. If your CC is morphing in Nat and your nat is not walled off, your are severely behind/possibly dead. If you're safe behind your walled main ramp, you're going to pull SCVs/get delayed/thrown off balance. A mid-high masters Zerg can benefit immensely if the Terran gets set behind by 30sec-1min. Good zergling control can also deny the natural unless Terran pulls SCVs with marines and first two hellions. Map control is also essentially dead if anything gets caught.



Second Barrel hits approximately as Terran's 3rd base goes up. Assuming it's Innovation style, this is when Terran aggression starts. Roaches trade very/very well against widow mines. They are very tanky and effective in terms of trading for gas. Let's be realistic, a Widow Mine is essentially a one hit card if there are overseers, and even without them, baneling splash kills them a lot. Forcing marauders out also reduces Terran's effective DPS.



This is also the second barrel, so assuming your first barrel accomplished something(and it should have) Terran will have a weaker force, or a similar force later. Which means you have more time to mine and make units. Essentially you're trying to set up a very cost-efficient engagement, reset Terran's army supply and punish sloppy play. Correct me if I'm wrong.



Third barrel is a lategame comp that seeks to trade effectively with Terran all-game long.



This hits much earlier. Here's the rundown. Assuming you go CC first or Reaper FE/1 Rax FE. As your second orbital is morphing, his ling aggression hits. This hits a narrow timing window before or around 6:00 which is before Hellions I believe. If your CC is morphing in Nat and your nat is not walled off, your are severely behind/possibly dead. If you're safe behind your walled main ramp, you're going to pull SCVs/get delayed/thrown off balance. A mid-high masters Zerg can benefit immensely if the Terran gets set behind by 30sec-1min. Good zergling control can also deny the natural unless Terran pulls SCVs with marines and first two hellions. Map control is also essentially dead if anything gets caught.Second Barrel hits approximately as Terran's 3rd base goes up. Assuming it's Innovation style, this is when Terran aggression starts. Roaches trade very/very well against widow mines. They are very tanky and effective in terms of trading for gas. Let's be realistic, a Widow Mine is essentially a one hit card if there are overseers, and even without them, baneling splash kills them a lot. Forcing marauders out also reduces Terran's effective DPS.This is also the second barrel, so assuming your first barrel accomplished something(and it should have) Terran will have a weaker force, or a similar force later. Which means you have more time to mine and make units. Essentially you're trying to set up a very cost-efficient engagement, reset Terran's army supply and punish sloppy play. Correct me if I'm wrong.Third barrel is a lategame comp that seeks to trade effectively with Terran all-game long.

Also, I do not see how this stops drops. Can't the terran just mass a crap time of bunkers and mines and play extremely defensive while sending a few units via dropships to disrupt your economy?



That's an absolute crap Terran reaction. If a Terran is passive and only acting with drops, the Zerg can also just turtle in and simply expand everywhere, spread creep, and essentially out-macro you. Believe it or not, but if the Zerg using this build sees that the Terran is being super passive, he'll just simply have a nice easy time making the 16:00 hive tech transition and absolutely crush you. Infestors are still amazing. Brood Lords are still amazing.



Honestly here is how in my opinion a proper Terran reaction should be.



1. There is nothing you can do about the First Barrel. Accept that fact. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Non-standard play demands non-standard reactions. By getting zerglings out that early Zerg also sacrifices something. Fact is, you pull 3-4 SCVs depending on the ramp. Zerg just sacked 7 potential drones that he could have had 30 seconds earlier. We are completely on time, but losing 3-4 SCVs for 30-60 seconds. Strong sim-city will absolutely demolish this First Barrel. Active scouting with your reaper will also give you some time to prepare.



2. Seize map control back with hellions. This is extremely effective and I highly urge that every Terran practice their Hellion Micro. It can be just amazing. Watch Innovation vs Life Group of Death GSL game 1 and 2 if you don't believe me. Innovation's amazing Hellion micro force out a TON of lings. Which made Innovation's mid game aggression absolutely ludicrous.



3. Consider making tanks. Fact is, if you see that many Roaches you should really consider just making tanks on two factories. Tanks do well against ultras, roaches, and marine-tank has been viable against ling-baneling in WoL. It's even stronger in HotS with the addition of the Widow Mine. Innovation has also displayed that proper tank positioning can do broken amounts of damage. Tanks are extremely cost-efficient against roaches/lings/banelings when paired with Widow Mines and the threat widow mines pose. Of course, it would be more simple to simply make more Marauders and less marines. I also see that as viable. It's all about being cost-efficient.



4. Do not let the Zerg get into that late-game comp! An aggressive zerg is a poor zerg. Roaches are not nearly as mobile as ling/baneling. We can abuse this through drops and massive pressure like Innovation. Imo, this build relies on anti-meta timings that hit harder and earlier, but they also sacrifice economy for that aggression. Less economy means our mid game/late mid-game is better provided that our trades are good. Whether our trades are good depends HEAVILY on scouting. Which is exactly why this build will be so powerful on ladder where poor textbook play is common. Good scouting and proper reactions will destroy this build. Which is why this is not for pro-gamers. I can see this being completely crushed by players with strong sim-city skills and scouting. That's an absolute crap Terran reaction. If a Terran is passive and only acting with drops, the Zerg can also just turtle in and simply expand everywhere, spread creep, and essentially out-macro you. Believe it or not, but if the Zerg using this build sees that the Terran is being super passive, he'll just simply have a nice easy time making the 16:00 hive tech transition and absolutely crush you. Infestors are still amazing. Brood Lords are still amazing.Honestly here is how in my opinion a proper Terran reaction should be.1. There is nothing you can do about the First Barrel. Accept that fact. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Non-standard play demands non-standard reactions. By getting zerglings out that early Zerg also sacrifices something. Fact is, you pull 3-4 SCVs depending on the ramp. Zerg just sacked 7 potential drones that he could have had 30 seconds earlier. We are completely on time, but losing 3-4 SCVs for 30-60 seconds. Strong sim-city will absolutely demolish this First Barrel. Active scouting with your reaper will also give you some time to prepare.2. Seize map control back with hellions. This is extremely effective and I highly urge that every Terran practice their Hellion Micro. It can be just amazing. Watch Innovation vs Life Group of Death GSL game 1 and 2 if you don't believe me. Innovation's amazing Hellion micro force out a TON of lings. Which made Innovation's mid game aggression absolutely ludicrous.3. Consider making tanks. Fact is, if you see that many Roaches you should really consider just making tanks on two factories. Tanks do well against ultras, roaches, and marine-tank has been viable against ling-baneling in WoL. It's even stronger in HotS with the addition of the Widow Mine. Innovation has also displayed that proper tank positioning can do broken amounts of damage. Tanks are extremely cost-efficient against roaches/lings/banelings when paired with Widow Mines and the threat widow mines pose. Of course, it would be more simple to simply make more Marauders and less marines. I also see that as viable. It's all about being cost-efficient.4. Do not let the Zerg get into that late-game comp! An aggressive zerg is a poor zerg. Roaches are not nearly as mobile as ling/baneling. We can abuse this through drops and massive pressure like Innovation. Imo, this build relies on anti-meta timings that hit harder and earlier, but they also sacrifice economy for that aggression. Less economy means our mid game/late mid-game is better provided that our trades are good. Whether our trades are good depends HEAVILY on scouting. Which is exactly why this build will be so powerful on ladder where poor textbook play is common. Good scouting and proper reactions will destroy this build. Which is why this is not for pro-gamers. I can see this being completely crushed by players with strong sim-city skills and scouting. He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.

forsakeNXE Profile Joined October 2011 Germany 538 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-13 00:30:10 #10 I think that all those terrans you played against ( i saw the first 3 highlighted vods) were very underpreparted upon not seeing a zergy third base there for like ever. After the weeks and months of 3cc greed terrans should have learned that no third base around 7 Minutes for Zerg means some kinda bust / allin / roach drop etc. So they were all extremly undefended upon normally 100% scouting this with 4 hellions + 2 reaper kinda thing.



Ofc the build is easily fuc'ked up as i do it alot myself but normally with 4-5 Bunkers and constant mine production after 6 hellions you should be easily able to hold your second barrel (and if i as a terren wait for 4 Hellions before moving out your lings wont do anything) and then be in such a dominant macro position that i will have no trouble defending your third and whatever followup barell. So its kinda semi-allin cause you regret taking your third base for a really, really long time and do almost 0 dmg vs terran players that simply prepar for an 99% sure bust cause you do not have that third for a really long time. All you have left are on pair upgrades with no 3rd base.



Edit omg 2am english, sorry :D



So put simple:

1. Barrel does nothing, just lift natural cc repair with 1 scv on each supply depot and wait for 2-4 hellions, depending on your micro. You will most likely lose nothing. (Depots start building after natural cc is finished, according to other posts your 1. barrel hits earlier which will only force a lift of and stop scv production for like 30 seconds till hellions are out.



2. The Second barrel is quote obvious cause you do not have a third base around 7-8 minutes which is 99,99% some kind of Roach / Bane Allin / Bust Push. So after Terran scouts this he just gets up 4-5 bunkers produces non stop widow mines after 6 hellions and simply holds. Afterwards your are so far behind that you will lose the game due to macro. Even if you kill "some" scvs you are still effectivly 2 basing.



3. After having done almost 0 dmg with your first barrel and beeing not able to get dmg done with your second (at least none sevear dmg) you will never be able to get a) a third base or b) a third base + a strong 3rd barrel and consequencly lose the game.



Dunno, i may be wrong on that one but that's how i see it as a kind mid-high master terran playing excklusivly innovation style and facing alot of roach attacks therefore.



Also just one drop to your third should be able to kill it if terran is smart and goes dropping with one medivac cause you drone behind this and if you turn around terran will have more stuff to defend you second barrel. Balace is, if everyone is unhappy. :D

Qwyn Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 2772 Posts #11 Yeah I really like the concepts you've laid down here (benchmarking, having 3 distinct goals to work towards in a game). I wonder how much more efficient this build could be after dinkering with it a little. Either way it's a lot of really good content and I'm going to play around with it, because why the hell not?



Is the pool first speed meant to help beginning players deal with reaper harassment? I would feel particularly uncomfortable doing that on a 2P map. On a 4P map, yeah it's k. It feels particularly meta though.



What this makes me want to do the most is create some "barrels" of my own, lolol. "Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts Last Edited: 2013-06-13 00:57:37 #12 On June 13 2013 09:29 Qwyn wrote:

Yeah I really like the concepts you've laid down here (benchmarking, having 3 distinct goals to work towards in a game). I wonder how much more efficient this build could be after dinkering with it a little. Either way it's a lot of really good content and I'm going to play around with it, because why the hell not?



Is the pool first speed meant to help beginning players deal with reaper harassment? I would feel particularly uncomfortable doing that on a 2P map. On a 4P map, yeah it's k. It feels particularly meta though.



What this makes me want to do the most is create some "barrels" of my own, lolol.

I actually did a lesson with a student who really liked the Triple Barrel concept but was attached to hatch-first, and it worked really well as a "Double Barrel Bust". I'm definitely interested in the variations players come up with! I think even a Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost third barrel would work really well if you started +1 Range instead of melee (especially against mech).



I've fallen in love with the Pool-first build, because it's unusual enough to cause issues for most Terran builds, and economical enough not to effect Zerg macro much. At first I did the opening with more Zerglings as a kind of "heavy pressure" kind of build, but practising it more I found it doesn't really need to do direct damage to be effective and provides you with unique opportunities to throw off Terran's build.



I also want to mention that a link to the guide is now on Reddit, if you'd like to help spread the word be sure to comment:



The Triple Barrel Bust on Reddit I actually did a lesson with a student who really liked the Triple Barrel concept but was attached to hatch-first, and it worked really well as a "Double Barrel Bust". I'm definitely interested in the variations players come up with! I think even a Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost third barrel would work really well if you started +1 Range instead of melee (especially against mech).I've fallen in love with the Pool-first build, because it's unusual enough to cause issues for most Terran builds, and economical enough not to effect Zerg macro much. At first I did the opening with more Zerglings as a kind of "heavy pressure" kind of build, but practising it more I found it doesn't really need to do direct damage to be effective and provides you with unique opportunities to throw off Terran's build.I also want to mention that a link to the guide is now on Reddit, if you'd like to help spread the word be sure to comment: Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

BatesCsC Profile Joined June 2013 United States 64 Posts #13 What if he starts dropping around the time before/while you send out the second barrel?



You're forced into splitting your barrel and thus weakening it or flat out keeping it in your base for defense. @BatesCMB

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts #14 On June 13 2013 09:45 BatesCsC wrote:

What if he starts dropping around the time before/while you send out the second barrel?



You're forced into splitting your barrel and thus weakening it or flat out keeping it in your base for defense.

Good point, a lot of Hellbat drops come as you start producing Roaches and it's important to minimize damage by pulling your Drones away and keeping the 3 Queens focusing the Medivacs. It will delay your bust, but it doesn't prevent you from going for it. He can't keep up constant-drops to the point that it prevents you from pushing, and one thing I neglected to mention in this guide is that you don't have to go for the second barrel - at any point you have the option of Droning your third.



So if, for any reason, you feel the second barrel won't work, you can "fake it" while fully-saturating your third. I usually just go for it every time because that is what I've practised. Good point, a lot of Hellbat drops come as you start producing Roaches and it's important to minimize damage by pulling your Drones away and keeping the 3 Queens focusing the Medivacs. It will delay your bust, but it doesn't prevent you from going for it. He can't keep up constant-drops to the point that it prevents you from pushing, and one thing I neglected to mention in this guide is that you don't have to go for the second barrel - at any point you have the option of Droning your third.So if, for any reason, you feel the second barrel won't work, you can "fake it" while fully-saturating your third. I usually just go for it every time because that is what I've practised. Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

TangSC Profile Blog Joined July 2011 Canada 1852 Posts #15 On June 13 2013 08:01 WindCalibur wrote:

I do not see how this stops drops. Can't the terran just mass a crap time of bunkers and mines and play extremely defensive while sending a few units via dropships to disrupt your economy?

It works really well against drops actually, and in the tutorial videos I talk a bit about why. Basically he needs all his units to defend, and you always build an extra round of defensive Zerglings and hotkey them on a separate control group before saturating your third. Even against a mass bunker/mine defence, you can usually trade pretty well. It works really well against drops actually, and in the tutorial videos I talk a bit about why. Basically he needs all his units to defend, and you always build an extra round of defensive Zerglings and hotkey them on a separate control group before saturating your third. Even against a mass bunker/mine defence, you can usually trade pretty well. Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com

BatesCsC Profile Joined June 2013 United States 64 Posts #16 On June 13 2013 09:51 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 13 2013 09:45 BatesCsC wrote:

What if he starts dropping around the time before/while you send out the second barrel?



You're forced into splitting your barrel and thus weakening it or flat out keeping it in your base for defense.

Good point, a lot of Hellbat drops come as you start producing Roaches and it's important to minimize damage by pulling your Drones away and keeping the 3 Queens focusing the Medivacs. It will delay your bust, but it doesn't prevent you from going for it. He can't keep up constant-drops to the point that it prevents you from pushing, and one thing I neglected to mention in this guide is that you don't have to go for the second barrel - at any point you have the option of Droning your third.



So if, for any reason, you feel the second barrel won't work, you can "fake it" while fully-saturating your third. I usually just go for it every time because that is what I've practised. Good point, a lot of Hellbat drops come as you start producing Roaches and it's important to minimize damage by pulling your Drones away and keeping the 3 Queens focusing the Medivacs. It will delay your bust, but it doesn't prevent you from going for it. He can't keep up constant-drops to the point that it prevents you from pushing, and one thing I neglected to mention in this guide is that you don't have to go for the second barrel - at any point you have the option of Droning your third.So if, for any reason, you feel the second barrel won't work, you can "fake it" while fully-saturating your third. I usually just go for it every time because that is what I've practised.



Thanks mate, with that you've definitely sold me on your build. Thanks mate, with that you've definitely sold me on your build. @BatesCMB

rikter Profile Joined November 2010 United States 352 Posts #17 to the people saying you cant do anything about barrel one, its easy. 2 marines in a bunker plus your hellions easily hold this with no damage and no wall.



You can undercut barrel two with hellbat drops, which start at 715 or so. A hellbat marauder medi midgame into marine production at the end gives you enough to hold barrel two, even without tanks or mines.



Doesnt seem productive to open pool first to me, especially to power an initial attack that shouldnt do damage. No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.

awakenx Profile Joined May 2011 United States 341 Posts #18 Well, back to getting an early tank out to hopefully blind counter most of this, been playing too greedy recently :x WorstMicroNA

TheBarcid Profile Joined December 2012 Canada 42 Posts #19 This style sounds pretty sweet. I say style because this seems really flexible and less all in than a lot of roach baneling plays. also, Your guides are IMO the most organized and thought out on tl, the work you put into them is incredible.

BlackPride Profile Joined July 2012 United States 185 Posts #20 Don't have time right now, but will definitely look into this later. Looks very well done and promising. I've never waited in line at the DMV [YVNG]

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