Gheddafi Told Oriana “You Massacre Us”

Hitler and Mussolini exploited the masses. I just appeal for the people to govern themselves

We publish a summary of Oriana Fallaci’s interview with Colonel Gheddafi, which appeared in the Corriere della Sera on 2 December 1979. The text comes from the second part of their conversation, in which the Libyan leader talks about his policies and replies to charges of supporting terrorism that were being levelled at him. The first part of the interview dealt with the hostage crisis involving Americans being held prisoner by the Iranians in the US embassy in Tehran. At the time, the Colonel had offered to mediate. Using her notes from the same meeting with Colonel Gheddafi, Ms Fallaci published another interview in the Corriere della Sera on 20 April 1986, just after the Americans had bombed Tripoli.

Colonel, I get the impression that your hatred for America and the Jews is actually a hatred of the West. Just like with Khomeini. Do you realise that this turns the clock back a thousand years, starting over again with Saladin and the Crusades?

“Yes and the fault is yours, the Americans’ and the West’s. Back then it was your – the West’s – fault, too. It’s always you who massacre us. Yesterday, as it is today”.

But who is massacring you today, where?

“Did Libya invade Italy or was it Italy that invaded Libya? You attack us now as you did then. In other ways, with other systems, by supporting Israel, opposing Arab unity and our revolutions, frowning on Islam and calling us fanatics. We’ve been too patient with you. We’ve put up with your provocation for too long. If we hadn’t been so wise, we would have gone to war with you a thousand times. We didn’t because we think the use of force is a last resort for survival and because we have always been on the side of civilisation. After all, during the Middle Ages we civilised you. You were poor barbarians, primitive, savage creatures”.

... and we were crying out for the light of your civilisation.

“Yes, the light of our civilisation. The science you enjoy now is the science we taught you. The medicine you treat yourselves with is the medicine we gave you. It’s the same with the astronomy you know, the mathematics, the literature, the art...”.

Really?!?

“Yes, even your religion comes from the East. Christ wasn’t a Roman”.

He was a Jew. That’s a clanger. Colonel, what do you think about the Red Brigades?

“I think... I think these Western phenomena derive from capitalist society. They’re movements denoting rejection of a society that has to be torn down. Whether they are called the Red Brigades or the hippies or the Beatles or the Children of God. And even though I’m against kidnappings and hijackings, I don’t want to interfere with what they’re doing”.

I see. But you’re not answering the charge of aiding the Red Brigades.

“That’s Zionist propaganda. It dates back to when the world failed to understand us and we were still a republic. Now we are a Jamahirya, a people’s congress and...”.

But what has the Jamahiriya got to do with it? Let me rephrase the question. Colonel, where do the Soviet weapons that Red Brigade militants and their associates are regularly found with come from? Could it be that some of the weapons supplied by you to the Palestinians end up elsewhere?

(Searching for the right words) “What... what... what you say will not make me hesitate for an instant in helping the Palestinians”.

Colonel, please don’t change the subject. Follow my reasoning. Suppose that in good faith, you give weapons to the Palestinians and they then supply the Red Brigades...

“We are not responsible for what might be done with the weapons we give to the Palestinians. We give them to the Palestinians because we believe in their cause and we believe we have a duty to help them. What happens afterwards is none of my business. If I am to be found guilty by proxy, I prefer charges that are direct. But there is no proof”.

Perhaps there is evidence. Here’s some. A few days before the assassination of [Italian Christian Democrat leader Aldo – Trans.] Moro, you offered to intercede to save his life. If you do not, or did not, have any contact with the Red Brigades, how could you claim to be able to save his life?

“I said to the Italian authorities that should they need any co-operation from us, we were ready to give it. If we had been in contact with the Red Brigades, we would certainly have saved his life because Moro was our friend. He was a supporter of the Arab cause”.

OK, let’s move on. Colonel, how can you be so indulgent with terrorists, and see them as a phenomenon of a society that has to be torn down, yet still maintain excellent relations with leading representatives of that society? Apart from doing business with the Americans, what about the deals you cut with Gianni Agnelli?

“Gianni who?”.

Gianni Agnelli. The chairman of Fiat.

“Fiat? My company?”.

Yes, your company. Fiat. Agnelli.

“I don’t know him”.

You don’t know Agnelli, your business partner?!?

“No, it’s not my affair to know him. That’s the job of my officials, the employees of my bank. The Libyan Foreign Bank”.

Are you telling me that you don’t know who Agnelli, your partner, is?

“No, I don’t know him”.

You’ve never seen his photograph? Never heard his name?

“Never. I’m not interested. It’s not my affair. I’ve got better things to do than know the names of my business partners or people in the world of banking”.

But apart from financing world terrorism, what do you do with all the money you earn from oil?

“I’ve already told you...”.

Yes, you’ve told me that the charge is not backed up by evidence. I apologise and correct myself. What do you do with all that money, apart from the billions you invest in Fiat, and the land you buy, and the gifts to Malta?

“We do not buy land. We invest in certain countries through our offshore bank. Commercial investments. Malta is a friendly country because it is a liberated, neutral country. We don’t give the money to the Maltese government. We give it to the people of Malta so they can expand the area of freedom and neutrality. In any case, it’s not just us Libyans who are helping Malta. Many others help Malta”.

All right, let’s talk about the revolution. What do you mean by revolution? As I never tire of saying, Papadopoulos talked about revolution, too. And Pinochet. And Mussolini.

“Revolution is when the masses make the revolution. A people’s revolution. But even when the revolution is made by others in the name of the masses, expressing what the masses want, it can be revolution. A people’s revolution because it has the support of the masses and interprets the will of the masses.

But what happened in Libya in 1969 wasn’t a revolution. It was a coup d’état. Yes or no?

“Yes, but it turned into a revolution. I staged a coup d’état and the workers staged the revolution, occupying the factories, becoming partners instead of employees, eliminating the monarchic administration and setting up people’s committees. In short, they liberated themselves. Students did the same. Today in Libya, only the people count”.

Really? Then why is that anywhere I look, all I see is your portrait, your photograph?

“What have I got to do with it? The people want this. What can I do to stop them?”.

Well, you ban a lot of things. All you do is ban things. Surely you can ban this cult of your personality? For example, this singing your praises all the time on TV.

“What can I do about it?”.

Nothing. It’s just that when I was a little girl I saw the same stuff with Mussolini.

“You said that to Khomeini”.

True. I always use that comparison when I interview someone who reminds me of Mussolini.

“You told him that the masses supported Mussolini and Hitler, too”.

True.

“It’s a straight accusation. And requires a straight answer. Here it is. You do not understand the difference that exists between me and them, between Khomeini and them. Hitler and Mussolini exploited the support of the masses to rule the people. We revolutionaries enjoy the support of the masses to help the people become capable of ruling themselves on their own. I myself am constantly appealing to the masses to govern on their own. I say to my people: ‘If you love me, listen to me. And govern yourselves on your own’. That’s why they love me because, unlike Hitler, who said ‘I’ll do it all for you’, I say ‘Do it on your own’”.

Colonel, since you don’t think of yourself as a dictator, or a president, or even a minister, tell me what position you hold. What are you?

“I’m the leader of the revolution. Ah, it’s so obvious that you haven’t read my Green Book!”.

Oh yes I have read it! It doesn’t take very long. A quarter of an hour, tops. It’s so tiny. My powder compact is bigger than your little green book.

“You sound like Sadat. He says it sits on the palm of your hand”.

It does. Tell me, how long did it take you to write it?

“Many years. Before I found the final solution, I had to meditate long and hard on the history of humanity, on the conflicts of the past and on those of the present”.

Really? How did you reach the conclusion that democracy is a dictatorial system, Parliament is a sham and elections a fraud? There are things that don’t add up in that little book.

“Because you didn’t study it properly. You didn’t try to understand what the Jamahiriya is. You should stay here in Libya and study how a country works when there is no government, no Parliament, no representation, no strikes and everything is Jamahiriya”.

What does that mean?

“Rule by the people. People’s congress. You really know nothing”.

Where is the opposition?

“What opposition? What has the opposition got to do with it? When everyone is part of the people’s congress, what need is there for an opposition? Opposition to what? You oppose a government! If there is no government, and the people govern themselves on their own, what are they going to oppose? Something that isn’t there?”.

English translation by Giles Watson

www.watson.it