Episode notes:



This episode is sponsored by Audible. For a free audiobook of your choice and a free 30 day trial go to www.audiblepodcast.com/mental

Follow Jackie on Twitter @JackieKashian

Check out her podcast The Dork Forest

Check out her website www.jackiekashian.com

Episode Transcript:



Welcome to episode 249 with my guest, Jackie Kashian, recorded live, at LA Podfest. I’m Paul Gilmartin and this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads-from medically diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show is not mean to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. It’s not a doctor’s office, I’m not a therapist, it’s more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck.

The website for the show is mentalpod.com; we’re going to be getting a facelift pretty soon. I’ve got a couple of designers working on the site, so I’m very excited about that. All kinds of things you can do at the site. You can join the forum, you can just browse, you can join it and post a gazillion different threads. A great way, especially if you’re living in rural areas, to connect to other people. You can fill out surveys that we may wind up reading on the show, you can support the show financially through the website, by making donations or buying a coffee mug, or a t-shirt. Or as I like to say, you can just put your thumb up your ass and go fuck yourself. Which, can, burn calories. (clears throat)

Uh, started meditating, uh… twice a day, as opposed to once a day. When I originally learned to meditate, I was doing it twice a day, and then for some reason, I just felt like I, I guess, I didn’t have time to do it that second time. And even though I’d heard meditation teachers say, “You know, that, that second one’s really important,” I was like, “Aw, they’ don’t know what they’re talking about. They only do this for a living.” Uh.. I started a couple of days ago, doing the second one again, and I can feel a difference. I feel, uh, more relaxed. I feel less stressed out. I don’t know if- There’s this feeling I have in my head sometimes, of like a ticking clock, and that I’m just three steps behind the rest of the universe. And there’s not enough time to do things, and so, then, yet somehow I find time to cram in a nap every afternoon.

And and, the other thing, I’ve started doing, which I think is improving my mood is, um… (nervous laugh) something I’ve started doing. Today was the second day I did it. BUT it has improved my mood as I say to myself, “Today I’m going to take care of three things that I’ve been putting off.” Three things I’ve been procrastinating doing. They don’t have to be huge. Like today, I just brought, we had this big jar of coins, that weighs, probably 50 pounds. And so I brought that in and cashed that in today. And it’s so funny, such a small thing, I felt such a sense of relief and accomplishment, when I went and did that. Because I look at this jar, every fucking day, and I say, “You really, need to bring that jar in. Cause if there’s an earthquake, that’s gonna fly in the air, and that’s gonna kill somebody.” And um… and today I did it, and it’s like, “What was the big deal? It took 10 minutes, yet for the last 3 years, I’ve stared at this thing like, ‘Oh there’s no way. You know, what if I couldn’t find a parking spot. What if that-” This is the thing that stopped me. “What if that machine is no longer at the grocery store, and I got this thing in my car, and I gotta bring it back in the house. I’m gonna have to get a search and rescue team (unintelligible) Fucking crazy. But it’s helping. So maybe you try it out tomorrow. Maybe you take, maybe you take Paul’s advice, and try to do, just try to do three things. Really small things. Like curing cancer. That might be a big one. Let’s do the surveys.

This is from the Struggle in A Sentence Survey, and this was filled out by (laugh) a guy who calls himself Angst Hathaway, and uh… about his bipolar disorder, he writes, “It feels like I should not trust being happy, because I know I will crash as soon as possible.” Uh.. snapshot from his life: “When my anxiety is at its peak, I self-harm by punching myself in the face as hard as I can. When my mania is at its peak, I am speaking in cartoon voices and accents. When my depression is at its peak, I cry for no reason. “I get that one with when I’m feeling good, I’m just like, “Oh is this just a ruse? Is this… uh… (sigh)this can’t possibly last.”

This is from a teenage girl who calls herself Alter Blue, and she has dissociative identity disorder. Snapshot from her life, “I opened up to one of my closest friends about one of my headmates/alters (meaning uh… the… her… what’d you call it… alternative personalities? Her… yeah… alters. Paul they know what you’re talking about! (whispers) For the love of God, just keep reading!) Uh…. Opened up to one of my closest friends about my headmates/alters, and they seemed okay with it at first. But later, said they found me triggering and didn’t want to be around me anymore. I was already suicidal this week, but I survived. So hard to trust people when people keep betraying me. I never even did anything negative or hurtful to them.” You know, my thought when I read this, first of all, I just wanna give you a hug, but the second thing I thought when I read this was.. umm… It’s, not everybody is going to be able to handle our whatever, whatever our brand of crazy is. And something that I’ve gotten better at, the older I get, is being comfortable um.. with the knowledge, that some people just don’t like me. Um… and… it used to drive me crazy. I used to feel like this um… this injury, and, like something I needed to right, something I needed to fix. And the older I get, the more I’m just like, “Whatever man. Life is just too short to try to please everybody.” So, my point being, um… just keep, just keep, uh.. searching for friends, and eventually you will find the kind of friends that get you.

This is filled out by Allie. Also a teenager, she writes about her depression, “Mentally watching grass grow on a sunny day.” About her anxiety, “That feeling of falling in a dream right before you fall asleep, but prolonged and never ending.” Snapshot from her life, “I was once working as a cashier, and had a panic attack for the last four hours of my shift, but couldn’t tell anyone, because I felt it was my problem only. My cheeks were flushed and my heart raced, but I still had to smile and thank people for making everything worse.” Thank you for that.

This is filled out by a uh.. woman who calls herself Frog Bunny Quack. And about her ADHD, she writes, “Like scrolling down pictures on your phone but not being in control of the speed at which they go by, no matter how much I’d like to stay and look at them.” About her anorexia, “Walking down a tunnel following a light, but everyone you pass is telling you it’s the wrong way, and being constantly unsure which direction is right.”

And then this one is by a woman who calls herself Mother of Parakeets, and about her ADD she writes, “Uh… I have 99 projects but paying attention ain’t one.” About her anxiety, “Unlike the 30 other times, this time, someone is definitely trying to break in.” About her codependency, “I hate my father, but if I make him French toast then he’ll pay attention to me.” And about her PTSD, she writes, “Uh.. I forget everything I need to remember, and everything I need to forget.”

[SHOW INTRO]

Paul: Thank you guys so much for coming out! I um… I appreciate it. You know, a lot of people would look at this room and say, “Boy… you know… not many people showed up!” But they forget that my audience has crippling social anxiety.

*laughter*

Paul: So this is REALLY like Madison Square Garden. It, if you think about what it is that we’re up against. Uh… and I’m so glad that, I’m so glad that you guys are here. How about a hand for all the people that put LA Podfest together?

*applause*

Paul: It’s, it’s, I truly mean, it’s so nice to be included and be a part of it. I look forward to it every year. Um. Well let’s not waste any time. Let’s get her up here. I’m sure you know her standup, you know her fantastic podcast, The Dork Forest. She’s done lots of other stuff. But uh… let’s get Jackie Kashian up here. Jackie Kashian everybody!

*applause*

[intro music]

Jackie: Don’t fall down. Don’t fall down. I’ve already fallen down today.

Paul: What were you doing?

Jackie: 10 AM I was on the uh.. Doug Benson, uh… Karen Anderson Dining with Doug and Karen. Doug was like, “Oh yeah, go sit on the other side of me.” And so I went around and it was just like this….

Paul: Fell off the back.

Jackie: Fell off the back… There was my introduction to the LA Podcast Festival, LIVE STREAMING, you guys.

*laughter*

Jackie: That’s how I like to do it.

Paul: As long as it’s memorable, you know. Are they going to remember the people that kept their balance on the show? NO!

Jackie: Nope-who can name the chefs? Nobody!

*laughter*

Jackie: Well THIS one, the gazelle that took a header! Yeah!

Paul: They can name the near-sighted wobbler!

*laughter*

Jackie: Uh… I bought a sweatshirt ‘cause it was chilly. I may take it off. Look forward to it!

Paul: Yeah we are!

*laughter*

Paul: Uh… Jackie, the biggest reason I wanted to have you as a guest, is, you probably have the shortest Armenian name ever.

Jackie: Right. You don’t wanna get anybody with too many syllables. You wanna keep it tight.

Paul: Has Kashian been truncated from something?

Jackie: Yeah. Actually, it’s um… my… I.. come from a long line of runners, who were cowards, and uh… then we have been fleeing from any sort of confrontation for decades. For generations. And my grandfather came to this country, and I think his name was like, Hachikian or something, and Kashian, is actually a Turkish (..), he came from Turkey, fleeing the Turks in the Armenian genocide. I won’t go into it. Anyway… uh…

But the uh (..) and it means son of a priest. No one in my family has ever been the son of a priest. We’re always the priest. We’re bossy magoos. We’re just a pile of bossy magoos. My oldest brother is an Evangelist.

Paul: Really?

Jackie: Yeah. It’s a lot.

*laughter*

Jackie: I don’t know if anyone else is related to the sincere, but it’s exhausting.

Paul: I’m going to assume you were raised Catholic?

Jackie: No Armenian. The Armenian Church. The Armenian Apostolic Church.

Paul: Oh…I... I was under the impression that 90% of Armenians are Catholic.

Jackie: No, no, it’s long-winded and a lot of standing and sitting, so I get why you’d think that. But uh… and we think that Jesus is actually in the bread and wine, but uh… so it’s comparable. But we separated from the (..) We’re more (..) no (..) We had a couple of apostles of apostles came, and we started around religion. We have a very-you know how some people want to make this a Christian nation?

Paul: Mm hmm…

Jackie: Uh… the Armenian empire was the first Christian nation. It was the first nation to say, “You have to be Christian or we will KILL you.” And uh… it’s, it’s a little known horrible fact, uh that, some people are proud of, and that I’m not that proud of. And I was talking to some woman in Nebraska, and she was like, “Sometimes I think that’s what it should be like.” And I said, “Really? Did you want to be Armenian?” And she was like, “No, I go to…” and I said, “No that’s what it would be. You wouldn’t get to pick which Christianity you were. You’d have to be the one that was picked.” And she was like, “Ohhh…”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: (to the woman she was speaking about) You’re not that bright… You’re not that bright.

Jackie: Think it through folks!

Paul: I’m a big fan of the… uh… religions that are just uh... way down with Sarah Mooney. Because that’s just a nice way to test your faith. Is, can you endure 3 hours of the kneeling and sitting?

Jackie: It’s a clock eater. Yeah, the Armenian, it takes 3 hours. It’s 3 hours of sitting around- I went to Sunday school until I was 17, ‘cause it took up half of the service.

Paul: It was actually called Sunday-Monday school.

Jackie: It was *laughs*

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: Nice one, nice one, huh! Paul Gilmartin, you guys!

Paul: So let’s get into what childhood was like for a young Jackie Kashian. You were raised on the south side of Milwaukee?

Jackie: Actual city, South Milwaukee, own water treatment plant. We’re very proud. Uh..Milwaukee-

*laughs*

Paul: Set those goals low, you can often achieve them!

Jackie: That’s it, that’s it. You got a bar down here, things are good. Uh… no… it’s-well, the upbringing of Jackie Kashian is fraught with peril. It was good. My brothers would say that I had it sweet.

Paul: You were the baby.

Jackie: I was the baby of six and so ummm… my parents of course, a fairytale romance. He was 17, she was 15. They uh.. she got pregnant, they got married. He joined the marines and uh… and then he quit the Marines right when Vietnam started because he was like, “Oh this doesn’t look like it’s going well.” And uh… yeah… as my father likes to say, “I’d rather be called a coward than an idiot.” And uh… and that has actually been how he’s lived his life. And he’s okay with that.

Paul: So, emotionally, what was it like growing up in your household? Were emotions uh… did people talk about how they felt, or were things just kind of pushed down?

Jackie: No! No, there was a lot of shouting before my mother died. She was a, she was a hitter. She uh- there was a lot of hitting. Prior to the age of 7, she died. Um… and then, my brother, oh, one of my brothers has the darkest, funniest line about it. He said, “You know, it wasn’t that I wasn’t sad that she died.” Cause I was 7, which made him 15, I think. And uh… He said, “It wasn’t that I wasn’t sad she died. It was just. The next day there was milk and bread in the house-“

Paul: *laughs* That is-

Jackie: “So it was hard to miss her.”

Paul: That is heartbreaking.

Jackie: It’s a LITTLE COLD. Except for that, yeah, uh… I didn’t uh (..) The weird thing is… is when she died I was 7. And the next day, I had not met, I had not, seen my father since I was 4, so I didn’t recognize him when he came into the house. And I remember sitting next to one of my other brothers, and I said, “Who’s that guy?” And he, he was 12, and he hits me and he says, “That’s Dad, you idiot!” And I was like, “Ohh…”

Paul: Wow.

Jackie: “What’s a dad?” Anyway-

Paul: I’m just still trying to get over the fact that your mom, your mom’s successor, that your mom was replaced by French toast, and that was basically-

*laughter*

Paul: That was a move up.

Jackie: Yes, except for that my dad immediately remarried my stepmother… uh.. and my stepmother, I mean the story is… is… see my published works, Jesus Christ, it’s the longest fucking story, ‘cause it’s…

Paul: What are the published works?

Jackie: There’s a thing called storytime on Band Camp. It’s a dollar. It’s called RIP Nancy Kashian. And it’s about my stepmother, who passed away 3 years ago.

Paul: And it’s audio or text?

Jackie: Audio.

Paul: Okay.

Jackie: It’s just audio. It’s a buck. It’s uh.. ‘cause she died like 3 years ago, and it was (..) My dad did not tell her that he had 6 kids. He was dating my stepmother, and I picture, this is how I picture it. Uhhh… My mother dies. Nancy and my dad were living together. My dad says, “Oh my wife died...” Which she knew that he was married. She didn’t know that he had 6 kids. And… “So I get the kids back.” I hear him say, in my head. And Nancy Kashian going, “What, the kids? What kids?” and he goes-and my father’s the kind of guy who assumes that he’s already told you.

*laughter*

Jackie: Soo… I’m sure he was like, “The kids Terry, Phillip, Scott, Russell, Darla, Jackie… The kids… Get ‘em back. I got ‘em back!” And uh.. and get this. Nancy Kashian marries my father, not one year later. And you’re like, “Well there’s a good reason to NEVER take her advice about men.”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: Because she, and she loved my father with the power of the sun. She loved him SO much, and so she worked her ass off to raise us. And she did an amazing job. My grandmother was like, “She saved your lives.” And I was like, “Very possibly.” She was a great loss to the Austrian army. She uh… there were charts and graphs and French corners on the beds. And a lot of-

Paul: I don’t even know what that means, but I like it.

Jackie: There’s rules.

Paul: Anybody else know what that meant? She was a great-

Jackie: A lot of rules. A lot of rules. There was like, we had all that chores, and like uh.. washing dishes was assigned. It was like working in a restaurant. My sister and I once a week would spend an hour folding napkins into triangles.

Paul: Wow!

Jackie: And there was a lot of chanting, “Wash, wipe and put away. Live to eat another day.” Uh… “Don’t help unless you’re asked. And when you’re asked, do it right.” And uh… she was literally, she was constantly yelling, she was constantly- and she was hilarious. She was a very, very, smart, funny woman.

Paul: Intentionally hilarious.

Jackie:Yes, but sarcastic and she was just, she was 26 years old. My oldest brother was 17. My father was 35, and uh… and so, she was like- “Keep it together! All of us, we’re all-none of us.” And I remember her telling me that she never wanted children. I was 8. And she was like-

Paul: What did that fell like, when you heard that?

Jackie: A little h- ouch!

*laughter*

Jackie: I’m right here! You said that out loud. That’s an inside your head voice. What the fuck? Umm… and I was like- and she said, “You know, but, we’re in this together. I never wanted children, you certainly can’t be enjoying whatever’s happening here. Uh.. but we’re going to do this together. You will be raised. You will do your homework, and uh… we’re gonna keep it together. You’re gonna do some uh… you’re gonna do your chores and I’m gonna take belly dance lessons.”

And so every Saturday, we were awakened to do our chores, to the sound of an album called, “Make Your Husband a Sultan.”

*laughter*

Jackie: *deep breath* It’s got husband and sultan in it. That’s all I remember. And she was in there with the zills… with the little tiny-

Paul: The finger castanets?

Jackie: Yeah, the little, “Ta-dink, ta-dink-dink-dink-dink.” And she was shakin’ her ass, and it was uh… she did some good work.

Paul: Did she yell while she belly danced?

Jackie: No. No one needed to. The Lebanese band that was playing on the turntable was doing all the sultan yelling you ever want. And so we all got up and did our chores and uh.. and that was that.

Paul: So let’s talk about uh… like emotionally, what you remember feeling? What you remember feeling-what kind of um… what kind of feelings would, do you remember feeling as a kid? You know, particularly negative ones, and how would you, how would you deal with them? Did you, did you experience sadness or longing, or-

Jackie: Yeah. Well here’s the thing. I have almost no memories before the age of 6. Umm… which of course, a bit of a trigger. A bit of a red flag. And then uh… and then… I remember, I was in third grade when they got married. And third grade was terrible. Was terrible. I had half a year in kindergarten in one school in our little town, half at a different school. Then we moved first and second, I was at a third school. And then we moved back to one of the other schools for third through sixth. And um… third grade, my teacher was a woman who was very stern, but she had no (..) I was, if I were a child, I would be up to the gills with Prozac and Ritalin and I was, a mess of a kid. And I would have temper tantrums, and then I would send myself to the principal’s office, and then go and hide underneath the secretary’s desk.

Paul: Seriously?

Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. I was 8 years old, and I- you know those glass doors that you hit with your hand to make the bar go and then it opens and they’re usually all glass?

Paul: Mmm hmm…

Jackie: I broke 2 of those, uh, with my foot. ‘Cause I was just kicking the shit out of the door.

Paul: So you were an angry kid…

Jackie: There was NOTHING but anger. It was nothing but rage. And until probably 14… ‘Cause what I did when I was about 8 years old, Nancy, when Nancy came into our lives, she started reading to us. And it was like, an entire world opened up. I was like, “Oh, I can check out entirely, by just reading…” And so I started reading when I was about 7, and I couldn’t read before that, because, I’m the youngest, and you end up getting stuff. But um… but the uh.. it was, I never, I didn’t stop reading. I mean it, it’s still a place where I hide. Reading and rereading.

Paul: The, the anger that you were feeling, if you could have found a way to express what it is that you were feeling, what would you have said at 8?

Jackie: Well, the greatest fear, when I was about 8 years old was that I’d be sent away. And-

Paul: Why did you think that was-?

Jackie: Because they sent my oldest brother away.

Paul: For his behavior?

Jackie: Yeah. He, he was violent, and he was 17 and he uh… he went to uh some sort of juvenile hall. And he’s the Evangelist. And he uh… he had this crazy, like, when Nancy came into our lives, there was a year when she didn’t live with us, and Terry was like 16 or 17. And he was a player. Him and my brother, Scott, who’s 2 kids younger than him. Nancy told me once that she came home, and they had 2 naked 15 year-olds. And Scott was 14, and uh… Terry was 17. And the 4 of them just naked, frolicking in our shitty apartment.

*laughter*

Jackie: And, and she was like, “It looked like fun. I’m not saying it’s not okay… it isn’t okay…” So umm… so.. and then my dad was like, “You can’t be a little asshole!” or whatever. I didn’t know what it was. Terry took a swing at him, and next thing you know, Terry’s gone. And so Terry went to juvie, or he went to some, some farm up north where they send dogs. Uh.. I don’t know. So the idea was, is, that if you kept your head down and you didn’t, if nobody noticed you, you did your (..) you didn’t talk too much, and when you did talk, you were entertaining, you would be fine. You would get fed and clothed and things would work out, and Christmas would come and you’d get a new blanket.

*both laugh*

Paul: So would it be fair to say that some of the rage was at, even though it may not have been conscious in your mind, but that there was rage that love was conditional in your house?

Jackie: Entirely conditional. And I’ve looked, I mean I’ve worked through it. I’m not, I’ve done all the work to find a way to love these people. Right? Because there’s no unconditional love. There is, I have never experienced unconditional love. I mean, that’s why people get pets. Because that is the only unconditional love in our lives. There are two words that go with unconditional-love and surrender. And uh.. and so the only way that I was ever able- for years I was never able- my brother Scott would say that he loved us, he was like- because we were very Lord of the Flies when my mom was alive. Because we presented a united front out here, but the (unintelligible) was brutal! And so, and Scott and Terry, they were constantly talking about how, “You know, we got each other’s backs. We got each other’s backs. You know, we’re family, we’re family, we love you. You know we love each other. I got your back, I got your back.” And then they would beat the shit out of each other. And you were like, “Well this doesn’t seem like anything I’ve ever see on the Brady Bunch. They have 6 kids, it all seems very lovely.”

Paul: You haven’t seen the outtakes…

Jackie: Oh!

*laughter*

Jackie: I remember, what, the first year that Nancy lived with us. Uh… two of my brothers, my brother Phil, and my brother Scott, they were fighting, and they had broken the kitchen chairs up. You know the spokes in the chairs. They had ripped the spokes out of the chairs, and were beating each other with them-

Paul: Did they think they were in a saloon?

Jackie: They thought they were- and my sister was trying to stop the fight, because she’s always been the one-

Paul: Was she dressed like a whore at the top of the stairs? Pulling Darren Gerard (sp?) out of her bra? And everybody stopped and looked up?

Jackie: Naw. She couldn’t stop them, so she called Nancy at work. And I was, I was hiding underneath the kitchen table, and I remember Nancy saying, I could hear her over the phone screaming, “Put one of them on the phone!” And Darla handed the phone to my brother Phil, and Nancy yelled at them, and she said, “Hand the phone to Scott!” I could hear her. And she yelled at them separately and she stopped the fight. She stopped a fight from across town, Paul Gilmartin! From that moment on, I was, uh… Team Nancy. Team Nancy. Because there was peace!

Paul: She sounds like a dynamo!

Jackie: She was amazing. You know, I mean, she was not (..), you know. Tom Papa, was talking one night about how his wife was crazy, but she was crazy because he and their children had driven her crazy. Because that’s their job. Their job is to drive the other crazy. Because the mother is the only person who wakes up, knowing that there’s shit to do. Everyone else gets to just wake up.

Paul: And wait to be told to do shit.

Jackie: Right. And so every day, Nancy would wake up going, “I gotta get these people outta here and then I gotta go to work, and then I gotta start dinner for tonight. Then I gotta come home.” And then eventually my dad would come home, wandering in and out of our lives with a bag of money. And uh… was a very 50s kind of dad, for a guy who was a dad in the 70s. Because his whole thing was, “Well I knew I provide the financials…”

Paul: Do you think he was a philanderer, or drinker?...

Jackie: We know he’s a philanderer. My father, to this day, when possible, getting some action. Uh… 78 years old, workin’ the ladies. Sure! And uh, but, uh, the, uh, um… but he had a gambling problem. So, he, there was, sometimes there’d be a lot of money, then other times there would not be any money.

Paul: So what do you think you would have screamed if you could have verbalized when you were kicking that door? What do you think you would have said?

Jackie: Well I knew what I, I-. A regret I have now, is that sometimes my father will say the same things that he’s-he’s never changed, my father. My father does not change. There’s no reason for him to change. Uh… things are fine in his world. He doesn’t have to worry, I mean, he is optimistic in the face of fact, he is-. Genuinely, my father’s slogan is, “Every day’s a holiday, every meal’s a feast. You can’t have a bad day with Elliott (sp?).” And uh.. that is patently untrue. Uh so, but the thing is, is, so I mean, I have been cruel. I have said very snarky, very sort of, shitty things to him, just because, sometimes he makes me mad. Because he doesn’t, I mean, I had to find a way to love him. And the best way that I could do it was say, “Well you didn’t go out for cigarettes and not come back.” You know? I mean he didn’t abandon us. He found someone to take care of us, and then he would show up, and uh, so he was there, and he is a huge personality, my dad. He is a very big personality. And he’s uh, in many ways, he’s the smartest guy in the room. 85% of everything he says, is entirely correct, and the last 15% is insane. Insane.

It’s like, I can remember as a child, him saying, “You can be whatever you want to be.” And then the next sentence was, “Jesus only had 12 followers.”

*incredulous laughter*

Jackie: Yeah. He’s like, “Anybody can get 12 followers!” And you’re like, “Did you want us to start religions?” He’s like, “I’m just saying you could!” And he would say things like, “You can do whatever you want in life.” Which is a beautiful thing to tell a child. And then the next sentence was, “As long as they don’t catch you!” So literally, there’s no… the boundary is when you get caught. And when you get caught-well… how are you gonna talk yourself out of that. And then, if you talk yourself out of it, you get a pat on the back. And then you’re like, “But why was I doing that?” And then, you know, there was, it was, I remember when I was like 14 years old, I sold student council candy bars. And there were 2 rules for student council candy bars-you get 50 cents each, and you have to sell them on campus. You can’t sell them off campus. I was selling them off campus in front of K-mart and Kohl’s. I would walk from one to the next for a dollar each. And at every bar in South Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in between them. And I was 14-15 years old. And I thought I was such a great salesperson, not realizing that a 14-15 year-old girl in a bar, with tired factory workers, asking for $1-that’s a win, that’s a win for every guy, and he’s like, “Sure! Can I touch your arm?” “Yes you can.” And uh… I made like 70 bucks a day for weeks, until finally, my pride was my downfall. I narked, I bragged about it to Holly Habonik (sp?) A name that STILL burns, that STILL burns. ‘Cause she narked on me and she told the principal, and I got called into the principal’s office and he was, and he said, “I hear you’re selling candy bars off campus for $1 each.” I thought I was in trouble for selling them off campus. I didn’t think I was in trouble for selling them for double the price. ‘Cause that’s just good sales, that’s just… I’m (..)

So I said, “Yeah… yeah…”

And he goes, “Well, I’m going to have to tell your parents.”

And I said, “Well they know.”

And he looked at me like I’d been raised by wolves. And he goes, “They know?”

And he said, “You know, that’s, that’s stealing.”

And I genuinely, I said to him, ‘Well you’re getting your cut.”

*laughter*

Jackie: And I walk home, I’m expelled. I get suspended, or… expelled. And I’m walking home from high school. It must have been sophomore year, ‘cause I’m walking home from high school, just crying, thinking about killing myself, throwing myself, ‘cause my mind has been, like, the world is upside down. I’m in trouble for selling, and being successful. Doesn’t make any sense to me. And I get home, and my dad and my sister are sitting on the couch with these very stern looks on their faces. And they, and I walk in and I’m just tear-stained, and I’m like, “Hey…” And they both burst out laughing. And my dad stands up and pats me on the back, “Dinner’s on you!”

*laughter*

And I’m like, “What the fuck just happened?” Cause I don’t know what-it was the weirdest.

Paul: So, so going back to my question, what, what do you think, if you could have verbalized, when you were having those outbursts, what do you think you would have said out loud?

Jackie: I, literally, if I could, ‘cause what it was, is everybody’s childhood is. My childhood, was, “What do I have to do to get your approval, what do I have to do to get your love? What do I have to do? What am I doing wrong? Am I being too loud? Am I not working hard enough? Am I in your way? What am I not doing?” Ya know, and… In many ways, I wasn’t in in their-I mean, I was the least of their problems. Because my brothers were almost men, you know they were 14, 16, 17, 12… I mean, they’d raised themselves, right? My sister, had always been-my sister, Darla, and my brother, Phil, had always been the parents, when my mom was alive. And so they had direct clashes with Nancy. I never had any, because I was always a child, and taken care of. So I just, in my head, I was like, “Stay out of the way, grow up, and get out.” And that’s I mean, my sister was 9 years old, if I was 7 she was 9. I remember she was 9 or 10 years old, we’d go to the grocery store. Remember those housing, those real estate, on newsprint, at the grocery stores? She would pore over those, looking for a house to buy, when she was 10 years old. And I was like, “You’re looking for a new house for us?” And she was like, “Not for us.”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie. “Just me.”

Paul: *laughs* 9 years old…

Jackie: And I was like, “Just you?!” And she says, “You could live with me.” ‘Cause she and I were friends, she and I, she was always good to me, she has always been good to me. She is one of the best people I know. And uh… it was, it was weird. Because she is a caretaker person, you know. And she is, but she and Nancy just got into it. Because Nancy was the adult, and Darla didn’t have to be the adult anymore, and so Darla was like, “Well, now what am I?” She didn’t know what she was. I knew what I was, which was (…) extra. I’ve always been extra. You know, I was the extra girl, I was the extra kid. There was always (…), there was never enough of anything, for all of us. And when I was really little, like when there was no food in the house, I remember my brother Phil, he would sometimes, he would stare at me like- I have like 4 memories, and one of them is my brother Phil making me buttered noodles, and going, “Have you eaten?” And making me buttered noodles and giving it to me. And then um… because they would all walk to my grandma’s house. My dad’s mom would feed the rest of them all the time. And but I was too little, so… I remember I was like 3 or 4 years old, and I was hitchhiking from where we lived in downtown South Milwaukee…

Paul: By yourself?

Jackie: By myself, picked up by my oldest brother Terry’s buddy, who stopped and said, “Aren’t you Terry Kashian’s little sister?” And I said, “Yeah, yeah, I want to go to the pool!” And he said, “Is anyone there?” And I said, “Yeah!” And he goes, “Alright…” and he drove me to the pool, which was about a mile away, and uh, dropped me off, and I went swimming. Because if you didn’t have a towel, if you just had your swimsuit on and no shoes, you could get in for free. But if you had a towel, you had to pay a dime. Uh… I was raised in the 12th century, and uh… but I remember, because Darla usually would take me, but she was 6, and she had already gone, and so I missed my boat, because we would always walk together, without shoes. And it was, it was, yeah… But she’d already gone, and I was like, “I gotta get there! Gotta get there.” It was summer. But, I mean, it was just, like, like, my earliest memory, is, just, sadsack earliest memory. I’m sitting on dirty laundry in an attic. Because my mother, my dead mother, by the time I met her, my oldest brothers will tell lovely stories of her trying to be June Cleaver, with all of her heart. Like really, just giving it her all, but she’s 15. She’s 16, she’s 17, she’s 18, she’s 19, she has 4 kids. She’s 20 years old. She’s 22 years old, she’s got 4 kids. She’s 24 years old she’s got 5 kids. She’s 26 years old, she has a new baby. 6 kids. Holy shit! Uh… she eventually just fucking gave up, right?

So by the time I was born, my dad would give her money. She would buy new furniture, uh.. and she would send our clothes out. She would run out of money, she would take our clothes and throw them in the closet. She’d get another check, she would buy us all new clothes. She wouldn’t pull the clothes out of the closet. So when she died, there were closets full of rotting clothes that she never dealt with-

Paul: She never did laundry?

Jackie: Not by the time I was born. She had tried to, tried to do all the things. The cooking, the cleaning, the all of it. And then she was just exhausted, tired!

Paul: Wow!

Jackie: Done. Right? Who-I can’t blame her! I swear to God, she did her best. I genuinely, picture my mother in heaven, with a beer and a cigarette, “Oh look, it all worked out!”

*laughter*

Jackie: Space work!

Paul: So how do you think this stuff… has affected you, and how you view the world, and how you, use things to cope? What are the issues that you struggle with today? I know depression…

Jackie: Right… well, I mean, off and on, it’s depression-

Paul: Anxiety?

Jackie: I don’t have a lot of anxiety.

Paul: You’re not paying attention.

Jackie: I have money anxiety, but possibly.

*laughter*

I get, I get anxious about money. I’m twitchy about money. And, you know, and on The Dork Forest, I had Chip Chinery on, and Chip Chinery is a guy, he’s a money blog. And-

Paul: Great guy, good friend of mine.

Jackie: Greatest guy in the world, super sweet guy. His dorkdom is that he likes to spend 2 hours saving $25-$200 by tricking a credit card company into giving him something. This is a fun game for him. And uh… it’s not my dorkdom. Never been an issue with anybody else. Never aired that issue, because I had a tiny meltdown during that episode, where I was like, “That’s the fucking stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of anybody spending time doing in their whole lives!” And he’s like, “What the hell just happened?” Safe space, Dork Forest, everybody gets to dork out about what they want. But I was like, “Why would you spend 2 hours to get a $75 gift certificate to Flowers R Us or whatever.” And he’s like, “Well it’s free.” And I was like, “It’s not free! 2 hours!” And a lot of fiddle and diddle. So I have money issues. I have issues about not having enough money, wanting money too much, I don’t want to.. for years, I didn’t want to make money. Because I felt like I was selling out. You know, I didn’t want to sell merch, because I had sold things my entire life. I wanted to be an artist man, and uh… recently, probably 10 years now, uh… I’ve been like, “No no, money, I’m going to need some money.” And… uh, and I’ve made peace with it, but it’s like, things. I’m not good at connecting with people. Right? I’ve never been good at making friends, until I was about 14, I didn’t have any friends. I had an imaginary friend. When I was 7 years old, I just realized, what you were asking me about this stuff. My imaginary-I didn’t have an imaginary friend before that.

Paul: You couldn’t afford one before that.

*laughter*

Paul: Times were tough; times were tough.

Jackie: Times were tough. We couldn’t afford an imaginary friend. The 70’s. And uh so…

Paul: The recession.

Jackie: It was, uh-

Paul: First thing to cut back on was imaginary friends, when the recession-

Jackie: Lines lining up to get gas and imaginary friends, in 1972. And uh, uh…

Paul: You remember the imaginary friend embargo of 1973?

Jackie: What did OPEC stand for?

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: And uh… the uh.. uh.. No but I (..) his name was Steve. I was 8, Steve was 12. Steve had a motorbike. And uh, that’s my imaginary friend. And then my imaginary friend for far too long, till I was about 12, 13, until uh… Steve became my imaginary lover. You guys. In other news… a different podcast. Anyway, so..

The um… ‘cause I’ve just been thinking about this, ‘cause, since you were talking about it. ‘Cause I’m not (..) friendship was not (..) I didn’t have any friends. I had kids I played with at the (..) in grade school. The neighbor kids, I played with them, they were my friends in the way that little kids are friends with each other. And then we went to junior high and they all got lives. And friends, and there were tables of people who sat together. And uh-but, when I was 14, I remember. ‘Cause, my sister, made me join things. She was like, “You will be joining things. You will be in the debate team, you will also be in student council. You will stay in band. You will do this, you will do that.” And uh… and she was the boss of me. And so… when I was 14, I was on the basketball team. And I was doing laps uh… around the track reading a book while I did it.

Paul: That is so adorable. That is SO adorable.

Jackie: But you know what I was reading? The Bravest Teenage Yanks. It was a non-fiction book about uh, teenagers who won medals of honor during the Civil War, that were for the union. Anyway, um…

Paul: God Bless you for not reading Are You There God ….

Jackie: *laughs* I never did read that.

Paul: No?

Jackie: I never did read that. But, I mean think of it, today that happens. Kids are on their phone while they’re doing laps. I’m sure of it, right? But uh, this is early adopter of anti-social behavior. Uh, 14…

Paul: You basically had an analog phone.

Jackie: *laughs* Yes. And the coach came over and she was like, “What… what… are you doing? Put the book down, run with someone else on the team.” And I was like, “Boo hoo, I don’t have any friends.” And I remember her looking at me…

Paul: Did you actually cry?

Jackie: No.

Paul: Okay.

Jackie: No, no I can’t. Uh… but thank you.

Ummm… but the thing is, is, uh, she said- I say “boo-hoo” ‘cause I was all emo. You know when you’re like 13, 14, you feel things. And I was like, “I don’t have any friends,” in that petulant kind of teenage voice. And she just said, I genuinely remember her sighing, and going, “What? You don’t (sigh) have any friends?” And she just stared at me, genuinely, like a beat, and then she said to me, “Are you friendly?”

*laughs*

Jackie: And I… it was like a lightbulb. “No! No, I am not!”

*laughter*

Jackie: And she, I am, I was afraid she was going to laugh in my face.

Paul: That’s like the simplest interpersonal math problem ever!

Jackie: EVER! She went, “That’s how you get friends. You have to be friendly.” And since then, I’ve been working on it. It’s a line of course, “Remembering to be friendly to stalkerville, uh… to… the sweet spot of friendship, where you listen to other people. Huh? Huh?” Learned skill.

Paul: Do you struggle with nuance? Are you somebody that tends to be, kind of an all or nothing, black and white thinking, or is nuanced thinking and behavior… easy, easy for you?

Jackie: I don’t know what that means. Do you mean, am I super judgmental?

Paul: No, are you, do you like, uh… you know, “I’m not going to do any of this,” or, “I’m going to compulsively do this or I’m going to think that I’m the worst person in the world, or I’m going to think that, you know…”

Jackie: No.. I am..uh… incredibly balanced and half-assed. So, uh… I will try anything, not finish it, and be okay with it. And then try something else. And uh…

Paul: Oh, you should see my house. It is a crime scene of unfinished projects. I’m not kidding you. There are curled up boards in the back from where I tried to dig a drainage trench four years ago. I haven’t even thrown away the boards that covered up the thing, when I knew I needed to give it up, ‘cause I was like, “I can’t finish this.”

Jackie: Do you feel bad about it?

Paul: Not really.

Jackie: See!

Paul: But I look at my back yard, and I feel, well, I feel shame about it when I look at it, because-. But not enough shame to actually do something about it. That’s the, that’s the sweet spot I’m in, is it’s not the shame and the fear have just got me in this fucking cesspool of stagnation.

Jackie: I don’t know how- do people find shame some sort of impetus?

Paul: Oh yes!

Jackie: Okay.

Paul: Shame, the great motivator!

Jackie: The great motivator-

Paul: He wears a turban... He teaches ladies how to belly dance.

Jackie: *laughs*

Paul: You put a quarter in, and he tells you what you should be ashamed of.

Jackie: Umm… Zoltar! Uh… tells you your future. Um…

Paul: I’m sorry to cut you off on that, but I just had to, that’s something that I struggle with.

Jackie: Yeah, yeah! It’s uh… there are things that I wish, you know, like I wish that I had written a novel. I don’t want to write a novel, it’s a lot of work, but I wish that I had written a- I mean, I know that there’s a story. Like don’t you think, you’re like- I’m sure that the Great American Novel is inside of me somewhere. But it sounds like an awful lot of work. And so… I don’t, I write, I do write short essays and uh… nothing so fictional as, lies. Like, like, um… you know, and my brothers always say that my childhood was so much better than their childhood, because, uh.. I had Nancy, and they’re like, and, and, my version of childhood, they’re like, “Well that’s a revisionist… I mean that’s-(..).” Nancy Kashian, my stepmother, was the greatest model of Henry Kissinger you’ve ever met in your life. She’d talk about how much she loved us when we were children, and how what a great life we had. And he was like, “Hmm... it was alright. But uh, you weren’t psyched, and you can’t pretend now that you’re psyched, ‘cause that’s not real.” And she would always say, “I love my grandchildren.” And I was like, “They’re 20 minutes from you. You haven’t seen them in 2 years.” And, because she never did like children, but she likes the idea of family. Anyway, but uh…

Paul: So the issues that you struggle with, today?

Jackie: The issues that I struggle with today are, um…

Paul: So, procrastination? Is that one of them, or it’s the lack of motivation? Because you don’t strike me as someone who doesn’t have a good work ethic. You strike me as somebody that does have a good work ethic.

Jackie: Right, but there’s things I will do, and things I will not do. That I will not work on. And, what I…

Paul: Creative things?

Jackie: Yeah, like, I don’t, um…

Paul: Out of fear?

Jackie: There’s not enough instant gratification.

Paul: I see.

Jackie: I’m not the hero of that story. Uh, because what I would want, is I would want, like I just, someone asked me to write a sitcom treatment for myself. They were like, “Maybe you could be in a sitcom.” And these are real people in the industry of show. And they’re like, “We care, and we might do a show where it’d be like Roseanne meets the Big Bang Theory. And I’m like, “I would do that.” And they’re like, “Well you have to write the treatment.” And I was like, “Oh…”

Paul: Done deal.

Jackie. “Why don’t you write it? You had the good idea for Roseanne Meets the Big Bang Theory.” And so I wrote it, and then I sent it, uh… to my manager, and my manager was like, “Yeah, needs a rewrite.” And I was like, “Okay…” *sigh* and uh, and then I sent it and I’m like, “Okay, it’s done.” And she’s like, “Nope, nope. It’s not done, it needs another…” And I’m like, “No! I don’t want to do it anymore!” And she’s like, “What?” and I said, “It’s done! Let’s just send it to CBS, and see if they care!” And she’s like, “No, this isn’t ready!” And I’m like, “Alright!” So, giant, fucking baby about the whole thing. It’s not…

Paul: And is that where you are today with it?

Jackie: That is exactly where I am today. That is exactly where my manager is like, “Well then maybe we shouldn’t be in a working relationship.” And I was like, “Whoa…I have never made you a dime, and now you turn on me!”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: I have an enormous amount of sympathy for Melanie Truitt. She is very good at her job, and I have not made her any money. Poor thing. Anyway, and she’s done her damndest to get me to- I wish I mean, my biggest emotional problems right now are, I have a genuine, like, this aging thing, is bugging the shit out of me. Because I’ve always been inside my head, an 11 year-old boy. That is what I, that’s how I dress… and uh… I, you know, and I don’t know what… I don’t, you know, I don’t know what that- I don’t like, you know I always think I can do more things than I can. But I’ve never been very fit. Like I’m not athletic, but I’ve always been able to do whatever I want, and at least try.

Like one summer, I did a lot of windsurfing. Well, this doesn’t windsurf, but this can hold on for 2 seconds, 1900 times a day. And then get knocked over, and then you’re like, “Alright, I’m doing it!”

Paul: Picking that sail up on a windsurfer is one of the most physically difficult things I have ever done.

Jackie: I was a pirate for a heartbeat. And then, gone! And, “I’m a pirate! No I’m not. And I’m a pirate! And no I’m not!” And so, uh.. I mean, it was just that, over and over and over again. Until, you know, until, quite honestly, recently, I’m probably going through my middle-aged lady time. Which nobody wants to talk about. Reminding me a lot of my initial lady time, when I was 12, and Nancy Kashian handed me a tampon, and didn’t tell me it was an applicator. No instructions, just, “Here you go!” and then, “OW!” uh… ‘cause, uh…

Paul: You didn’t know to take the one part out?

Jackie: Pink, yeah. You’re supposed to, you go up, you go, “Pink.” And then you pull the plastic shit out, and then you live your life without draining blood everywhere. Uh… this one… tried to jam the entire thing up my 12 year-old… uh… business… uh… ouch! And um… and then I couldn’t explain to her what…. And I was like, “It hurts!” and she was like, “Then don’t be cool and wear pads. What do I care?” And so I wore pads till I was 19, and my friend, Judy Butchkowski (sp?) who then, married a guy named Sharif Arikenshikh (sp?) and then hyphenated her name because she hates the gubmint… Butchkowski-Arikenshikh… and uh…

Paul: I would love to hear that name get called at a restaurant. They call that name and they say, “Your table will never be ready.”

Jackie: And uh… but I, all she had was a tampon, and I was like, “Oh, I can’t use tampons. They hurt.” And she was like, “What? You’re 19? What’s happening?” And I was like, “Well, no, it’s too long, it’s too big.” And she goes, “Tink…” and I was like, “What?!” Uh uh uh… it’s like a giant reveal. And then, uh, and then, thirty years of being a grown-up lady. But now, but literally, I’m going through this time where all I have is, I have two brain cells, in my head. And I rub them together to speak. And that’s, I can’t remember any words. The only thing I can actually do very well is standup comedy, which thank God, because that is my job. Uh.. but the… uh… when I’m talking to people and my husband and people in my life, I have no patience, I have no tolerance, I have very little kindness… I actually wrote on my hand last week, “Patience, tolerance, and kindness.” To remind myself to have those things. And uh… and it was, it’s incredibly depressing. It’s depressing to not feel like a good person. And all I want to do is sleep, eat, eat, eat, and fuck. And my husband’s like, “I’m okay with that.” And I’m like, “Sure… but I’m going to gain 30 pounds.” And he’s like, “I don’t care.”

Paul: Well, the nice thing, 2 out of 3 of those you can do in bed.

Jackie: Right, right!

Paul: Actually, you can do all 3. You just need a little vacuum handy.

Jackie: I hate vacuums.

Paul: Uh…

Jackie: I’m like a cat.

Paul: It sounds like, uh, untreated depression. I’m no doctor, but…

Jackie: Well, I think it’s just perimenopause.

Paul: Is it?

Jackie: Yeah, I mean, though I’m told I could probably take some sort of reefer medicine, and uh… become… emotionally right there for awhile.

Paul: Do you take birth control?

Jackie: No, no.

Paul: ‘Cause I’m told, and I could be wrong, that, that can help level your hormones out.

Jackie: Right. Umm…

Paul: Is that true?

Jackie: I was on birth control once, when I was 19. And uh, I became (unintelligible)

Paul: Did you put it in your butt until your friend told you?

*laughter*

Jackie: I was like, “That’s not where it goes!”

*laughter*

Paul: But I don’t want to have an ass baby, no, Jackie! We gotta go back to the drawing board!

*laughter*

Paul: Jackie!

*laughter*

Jackie: Here’s too much information. Tabbay slatay (sp?) Jackie Kashian. So…

Paul: So you’re struggling with perimenopause?

Jackie: Yeah, so I guess I’m struggling with that, which is making me… feel not good about myself. ‘Cause I’m sleeping too much, I’m eating too much, so I’m gaining some weight. And I’m not exercising at all.

Paul: And you’re snapping at people.

Jackie: And I’m snapping at people! Some friend of mine, I had lunch with him the other day, and he, he is a hothouse flower, and he was telling me a sad story. And he was crying, and then he said, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry for crying.” And I said, “Well, I would cry if I could.” And uh… and he was like, “WHAT?” And uh.. and I said, “I know.” It’s not even conversation. I mean there’s a certain point in your life, where you’re like, you’re so depressed or you’re so unhappy that you can’t even bring it up, ‘cause it isn’t conversation. Ya know, you can’t…I mean there’s two people in my life when they say, “How are you?” I can actually say, “Uh, I’m a little dragging, I’m a little suicidal. But not today, not today. So it’s a win.”

Paul: How are the uh… how are the suicidal thoughts? How have they been lately?

Jackie: Not good. Not, I mean, I literally, sometimes, like I’m not (..) I am a (..) I feel very blessed that I’ve never been on any sort of anti-depressants. Because when I get depressed, it happens. This is kind of a long stretch for me to have it. It’s probably been 9 months of me just off and on, kinda going, “Uhh…” It’s exhausting. But it’s not, I don’t know how to fix it except for I know, here’s the best thing about it. I know that it doesn’t last. I’m old enough to know that all of the crazy sadness and the desire to kill myself and stuff like that. My father said the funniest things, cause, well, a couple of years ago, I said, because I didn’t want to kill myself, I was ready to die. You know, it’s that whole thing where you’re like, “Well I’m not going to kill myself. But I’m tired. Uh so…if I died, I’d be OK with it.” And my dad goes, “Yeah, that’s your 40s and 50s. In your 60s and 70s, you’re like, “Eh just one more day!” God… and uh, and my dad’s 78 and he’s like, “I can live… It’s going to be great. I’d like to live.” And uh, so…

Paul: On a bad day, how many times do you think about suicide?

Jackie: Once all day long… It’s kind of, it’s a low level all the time, on a bad day.

Paul: On a good day…

Jackie: On a good day? I don’t think about it at all. It’s not… and… I probably thought about it twice in the last two weeks. So once a week. It’s not bad. Oh… a little judgment…

Paul: NO! I think-

Jackie: No, it’s sympathy, it’s sympathy. Yeah it’s sympathy.

Paul: I think it’s empathy.

Jackie: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: I don’t know, what’s the difference between sympathy and empathy?

Jackie: Uh… probably one’s more proactive, probably. Sympathy seems a little more passive; empathy seems a little more, “It’s okay…”

Paul: Umm… would you like to be able to cry more?

Jackie: Yes. I know that when I lived alone, there was more crying jags. It was easier to just have a crying jag. Um… now that my husband, we both work from home… it’s very hard for me to go, “Yeah, I’m going to take an hour and have a crying jag. No, you keep working.” I mean, ‘cause he wants to help. He wants to, he is a good person, he loves me, and he would like me to not… but he is, he’s also very good about knowing that I need solo time. ‘Cause I’m not (..) ‘cause I’m a pretty (..) I’ve always been alone. He is the first relationship I’ve ever had. And we’ve been together, it’ll be… I think 11 years, but 9 years married next month and he’s completely… not, you know I mean, he’s as sane as any of us. I mean, he’s he’s like an adult man. And so he has had previous relationships, he is not a comedian, he has, I mean… he has social skills, he has had long-term relationships, he has had short-term relationships, he is… the kind of guy that gets married. You know, he’s a serial monogamous guy, you know? And uh… and so he is, I’m very lucky and blessed, but he’s also, not, he’s not controlling at all, so when I’m like, “I’m going to need you to fuck off for an hour or two,” he’s like, “And I’m gone. Have a good time. Write when you find work.”

You know, I mean, he’s very supportive of the solo time that I need to, so that if I told him. But I can’t manufacture a crying jag.

Paul: Do you ever go to him when you’re really sad? Or is it something where you’re like the wounded animal that just wants to go retreat into the bushes?

Jackie: We joke a little bit about how sometimes he can tell that I’m hurt, and I said, “I’m like a wounded bird that you try to get to hand.” And he’s like, “Yes, to hand.” And so but it’s like, one time, he’s like (..) He says what he needs. I occasionally fall into this thing where I assume he is a psychic.

Paul: God, I do too, with my wife.

Jackie: Right. And so… he’s like, ‘cause, we both have families that need support. And so his moms live in the middle of California. And he needed, he was like, “I’d love you to come this weekend. I know it’s inconvenient, but I’d love you to be there for me with my moms.” And I’m like, “Eh.. I don’t want to, yeah, but of course I will. Because we are in this together.” Right? And now, I on the other hand, was going back to Milwaukee with my brother. And I didn’t want to go. And I love them as much, but I was like, I couldn’t ask him to come. Because I barely, I knew that it wouldn’t be, that it was going to be a bit of a… and then I got mad at him. Because I hadn’t asked him to come, and he wasn’t coming.

Paul: *chuckle* Right…

Jackie: And then finally, I just said, “I need, I kind of would like you to come.” And he was like, “Oh I’d totally come! Just, yeah!” And he said, “Why didn’t you want to ask me?” And I said, “Well I didn’t want to be a burden.” And he laughed in my face. And he said, “Here’s a game. Every time you think you’re being a burden on me, hand me a dollar. And every time I think I’m being a burden on you, I’ll hand you that dollar right back. And I promise you, we will never need another dollar for 40 years. We will just hand that dollar back and forth.” He said, “That’s what marriage is, it’s sharing the burden, right?” I mean, it’s neat.

*claps*

Paul: So he’s cheap?

Jackie: SUPER cheap.

Paul: I might have missed the point of that. I might have missed the point.

*laughter*

Jackie: Yes, I’m wearing the same dress that I married in. I haven’t had a new handbag in months. Um…

*laughter*

Paul: He sounds like a really, really beautiful guy.

Jackie: He’s a good guy. He’s sane-

Paul: He’s a keeper.

Jackie: And I (..) ya know, and people are like-‘cause I never had any relationships. Uh… I had a boyfriend in high sch-in college, for a year and a half, and for a year, I tried to get rid of him. And uh… and I have always thought that I was super mean to him. And I was just talking to him, ‘cause I still know him, and he said, “You know, I never thought you were that mean to me.” And I said, “That’s a sign of YOUR horrible upbringing.”

Paul: Go ahead.

Jackie: ‘Cause he was like, “You’re right! Because I never expected anyone to be nice to me.” And I wasn’t particularly nice to him. And I’ve always felt about it, but we’ve made resolution with it. And then, for years, I just, I didn’t date, I just, I just, had crushes on male comics that were super funny. Thinking, “Maybe if I stand really close to him, they’ll uh… the genius will get on me.” Or what? But uh.. I mean, it’s completely insane. And luckily none of those men liked me back. And so… but I would do the road, and I would do the road, with you know, guy comics who were single, or… cheating. And they would get laid, and I’d be like, “Aw is that what we do? We get laid!” And so I’d get laid every time I wanted to take my life into my own hands.

Paul: “What’s your line? “It’s difficult to-“

Jackie: Oh. It’s hard to have an orgasm when you’re poised for flight.

*laughter*

Paul: So fantastic. So fantastic. First time I heard you do that joke, I was like, “She… I... It’s just-“

Jackie: Yeah… it’s true. You want to get laid, who doesn’t need a tune up? Everyone needs a tune up every now and then, but uh…you just, “I gotta get super drunk and then take my life into my own hands and go into this room with a genuinely usually perfectly nice man.” I was always very lucky that I would usually pick some perfectly nice man. And every time, we’d get to the point where I didn’t want to have sex, I remember one time, the guy didn’t have a condom and I was like, “Nope! My people are fertile.” And uh… and he was like, “Well…” he took a, not that he deserves a medal you guys, but he took no for an answer. But he said, “I’ll go get condoms.” And I was like, “Oh no, I’ll be passed out by the time you get back.” ‘Cause I had, there was a certain level of drunk that I had to get, and I was like, ‘There’s a, you got a 35-40 minute window to fuck me. And then…. I know it sounds really ladylike…

*laughter*

Don’t you all miss that you didn’t know me when I drank a lot?

Paul: And you’ve been sober for awhile. You’ve been sober for how many years?

Jackie: Seventeen.

Paul: That’s fantastic.

Jackie: This year; this month.

*applause*

Jackie: If I stick it out…

Paul: What has sobriety…. uh… given you, emotionally?

Jackie: Sanity. It’s given me a lot of, I mean, the thing is, it’s… really taught me how to be a decent person. ‘Cause the thing is, is, is, cause I used alcohol to medicate. Right? I mean, I was just like, “I wanna check out. I don’t wanna deal with (..)” ‘Cause I remember when I first moved to Los Angeles, I would get so drunk. And I don’t have great conversational skills anyway, right? So, I would do a shot and a beer, I would ask you about you, if there would be a lull in the conversation, I can’t take silence. I’m not good at it. So uh… I remember being at a party and I was talking to this woman, and uh… it was some work party. It was like a Hollywood-y thing. And I was like, we had exhausted our conversation, and I said, “Alright… we’re at that point where you gotta start talking more, or I can do material at you….”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: I’m not great… you guys. I’m not great. So what I’ve learned in sobriety is how to let there be some silence, and work other people’s bits into the conversation.

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: Like, as, as information. As sort of friendly, sort of, “Oh yeah, that reminds me of a Tom Papa bit that I just told you earlier.” Or… “Have you guys heard Barin Vaughn (sp?)’s new joke about crickets? It’s great. It’s a really good bent.” And I mean, it’s sort of like, other people talk about movies, they talk, you know, there’s like water cooler conversation. Small talk. I’m not particularly good at small talk, so but that is my small talk, is me telling… “There’s great comics out there you guys. Uh.. let me tell you about Laurie Kilmartin. She’s workin’ it. Uh…”

Paul: Love Laurie, great former guest.

Jackie: Yeah! Oh good, there you go!

Paul: Um… total… as my dad used to say, my brain just went to screen saver.

Jackie: *laughs* Nice reference.

Paul: Um… the uh… what, what do you feel you’ve gleaned from therapy?

Jackie: Oh right, ‘cause I did, I had intensive therapy. It was before I stopped drinking, and uh… my therapist was like, “Do you drink?” And I was like, “Oh yeah! Yeah! A lot!” And she was like, “Have you thought about stopping?” And I was like, “Noo! Why would I stop drinking?” And she’s like, “Well… you might be not dealing with your emotions by drinking.” And I was like, “Naw, if I think we could just fix my childhood, I’ll be better.”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: And she was like, “Well.. it’s your $100. Let’s do it.” And uh.. and so she was great. She actually… was an old hippy lady who used to do sex therapy naked in the 70s with people, in the 70s… in LA. And uh… she said, “In the 80s, I made everyone put their clothes on. Nobody needed to be nude.” And I said, “Why was that?” And she said, “Ah, I didn’t look that great nude anymore.”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: It’s like, well that’s knowing yourself. But what I learned was, literally, I mean many of the greatest things I’ve ever learned is that you know, like, like, a lot of people. Where you learn that your parents were once children, that they were poorly raised. That they had issues. That someone was mean to them which is why they don’t know how to be a good parent. You know? And also, is that everybody’s doing the best they can, and sometimes it’s incredibly bad. That you’re not good at this, at all. And and and… the other thing I learned is that I don’t have to hang out with people that I don’t like. You know?? I don’t have to deal, it’s fine. It doesn’t mean that we can’t be polite. But if you aren’t my friend, and you’re taking advantage of me, or if you’re blowing hot and cold and it’s weird… and I’m uncomfortable, I don’t have to actually tolerate that. I hate confrontation, but Maria Banford’s like, “But you’re so good at it!” And uh.. I’m like, “I’m good at it ‘cause I can’t stand the alternative, which is being sick to my stomach being around someone who’s being mean.” And I’m just like, I would rather, I would rather you be mean to my face than to sit there and have it be weird. I’m like, “We’re going to have this horrible conversation that neither of us want to have and then at the end of it, either you will leave and I won’t ever have to see you again, ‘cause you hate me. Or we will go over a hump. We’ll go over a hump and we’ll be friends or we’ll be polite to each other and we’ll know it.” One of the weirdest things is, I’ll never remember when people don’t like me. So whenever I meet someone who doesn’t like me, I forget, I’m like, “Ah I remember you!” And then I’m like, “Hey how’s it going?” And they’re like, “Booo!!!”

Paul: *laughs*

Jackie: And, I’m like, “OH SHIT! You got to be mean to me again because you don’t like me! But for some reason, I remember you.”

Paul: I can’t imagine anybody not liking you!

Jackie: I know! *unintelligible*

Paul: Seriously! I never heard anybody say a bad word about you. You are so well-liked in the comedy community.

*applause*

Jackie: Well that’s very sweet!

Paul: Yeah.

Jackie: It’s uh… I’m not- I don’t know. I mean, my-my self-esteem issues are more related to…. I have a great… because I’ve done bad things, because I’ve been mean to people, and because… like I bought, I went to Target and I got a Star Wars, the Force Awakens t-shirt. And I got it at the end of August and they didn’t charge me for it. So I went back the next day with my receipt, not wearing the shirt. I just grabbed another one off the thing, and I was like, “Hey you forgot to charge me for this, I owe you 12 dollars.” And uh… and they were like, “What? It’s Target-RUN!” And uh… but the manager was like, “This is uh…” -you know when they always say that thing, “Oh you’re being so honest and like…” Well, I’m making up for horrible, horrible thieving moments in my past by being, you know, sort of uh.. just being a halfway decent human being now. And so they tried to ring it up, and he was like, “Oh my god-we weren’t supposed to start selling this! This is a timed sale. It’s not supposed to go on sale until September 4.” And uh… and I said, “Oh...” and we just kinda stared at each other for a second and I go, “So do I get a free shirt now?” and uh.. and he goes, “Unless you come back on September 4…” and I was like, “No that seems like a good effort.” But uh… but it’s like, um…. But I, I don’t… I’m always trying to make up for things that I did for probably 15 years, you know. And I’m 50. So for 35 years, whatever the math would be, uh… I have been a halfway decent human being. But I still have that guilt. I still have that inside that’s telling me that I’m not a good person.

Paul: I struggle with that, too.

Jackie: Not enough of a person, right? And uh… everyone around me is like, “Naw, you seem like a perfectly nice human being. You seem to be doing everything you can to be a decent person.” And you’re like, “Yes… yes… but constant vigilance, Madeye Moody (sp?). You gotta live Madeye Moody, constant vigilance.”

Paul: What is that a reference to?

Jackie: Harry Potter. Yes…

*laughter*

Paul: Would you like to do some uh… fears and loves?

Jackie: Oh right! The list!

Paul: Yeah!

Jackie: I thought we’d pretty much covered them, don’tcha think?

Paul: Um well… if you get to one on your list that you feel like we covered already, uh… we can skip over that. I’ve written some of mine; you’d think I would have run out. Uh…

Jackie: I’ll tell you, the oh, I did this one, which was ummm… that one of the things I never realized, which other people have always realized, or, I don’t know… uh…. Is how addictive being in a relationship is. How addictive physical love with a partner is. Having my husband, I can see why you would be with someone who you don’t necessarily, love. And like people go from relationship to relationship, even though it’s just, “Eh, that guy’ll do…” or, “That woman’ll do.” Or whatever. Because, because it’s that physical contact, and the, and it’s like a drug.

Paul: Especially in the beginning, because the newness is so exciting.

Jackie: Right-that was crazyville man! And uh… but the, the, like I think you know, like when sometimes you think about your partner dying. And so I-

Paul: Right as you orgasm, right?

Jackie: That’s right! That’s like, my safe word is apricot. Me and Barry Manilow. Both of our safe word is apricot. Um…

*laughter*

Um… I am so not a wildcat in the sack, you guys. Hardworking in earnest.

*laughter*

Um…. Makes up for a lot! And uh…

Paul: Alright, give me a fear.

Jackie: Get you a fear… umm… yeah, so we were just talking about that. Uh….

Paul: Did I cut you off?

Jackie: Nope! I don’t think so. We can talk about loves, ‘cause I think we covered all my fears, don’tcha think?

Paul: OK.

Jackie: Being alone, being liked, being a good person, body image stuff. Not wanting to care, but not being able not to care because we live here, we’re alive, we’re walking around staring at each other, going, “Yes… that person’s really good looking…”

Paul: I’m gonna read one fear that I have, ‘cause when I wrote it, I was like, “Oh yeah…this one is with me every single day.” I’m afraid that I will look back on this period in my life and realize I blew it. I had such opportunity to secure my future but I frittered it away with sleep and video games. Does that ring true for anybody or is that just me?

*clapping*

Jackie: Sure!

Paul: Yeah.

Jackie: I don’t have that fear, actually. I feel like, um… I genuinely am super grateful, I work very hard to be grateful for standup comedy. ‘Cause I love standup comedy so much, that every time I get to do it, is a total fuckin’ win; it’s a win. I’m in front of one guy named Joe, if I’m in front of 7000 people opening for Brian Regan’s (sp?) biggest fuckin’ thing in the world, where you’re like, “Huh… there’s a train going bye, I don’t care…” And uh… so I mean you’re just like, “It doesn’t matter. It’s, it’s um…. Because it’s easy to get bitter in this. I’ve seen so much bitterness…”

Paul: VERY easy!

Jackie: I’ve seen so much bitterness in standup comedy where you’re like, “Dude, I know you came up with Drew Carey and he became famous and you didn’t, but you still make $45,000 a year doing stand-up comedy. That’s a win. That’s a win. You don’t have to go and you’re not living inside a filing cabinet, you weirdo! You WIN!” And that’s a pet peeve where it’s constant vigilance trying not to be bitter about that. And I’m constantly reminding myself that if I had to, I could get a day job. I could still do stand-up comedy, but I have all of my thumbs, I can answer phones. It’s not, you know, comics who say, “I could never do anything else for a living here.” And you’re like, “That sounds like laziness! That doesn’t sound…. Get a fucking job! What, are you nuts?” Anyway….

Paul: Let’s do some loves.

Jackie: You got a love?

Paul: Uh yeah… I’ll start off with one. I love being around my friend Pat Francis, because we both act like 8 year-olds, and it’s so rare that I can laugh until my face or stomach hurts. And it’s so nice to be around someone who is so completely in the moment. If you’ve never listened to his podcast, it’s called Rock Solid, listen to it.

Jackie: That guy… he collects autographs.

Paul: Yeah, he has some great autograph stories, and he truly loves music. Like I know everybody “loves” music, but it’s uh… it’s crazy…

Jackie: He’s amazing.

Paul: Yeah… Give me a love.

Jackie: A love I would say….

Paul: Give me the greatest love of all.

*laughter*

Jackie: Rollerskating backwards. No. um… the uh….

Paul: Is that a roller rink reference?

Jackie: Yes. Couples skate, damnit! Anyway, um… I would say, uh… the greatest thing I love is… oh that’s a dream, that’s not a love.

Paul: Dreams are OK.

Jackie: I love, the things when you were saying that, I love and miss my friend Maria Banford. Banford, she’s got work right now, and so she’s working nonstop, like 10-12 hours a day. And, hanging out with Maria Banford, and just talking about laughing and being in the moment, and just riffing, we do joke machine, right? So she’ll tell me, like the darkest, weirdest joke she’s working on, like some, you know, rabbit hole of… cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs um… premise… and then I’ll tell her my whatever weird thing… time travel, let’s do it! And uh… and we just, it just, there’s different, it’s so smart. It’s like, it reminds me of those conversations in college, when you’re sitting around and you know… you could have used a traveler’s check to buy a latte, and uh… it’s 1984, you guys. Anyway… in my head. And um… but it’s one of those, it’s like a slice of life where you’re like, “That is a friendship that it’s like a little slice of heaven. You know?” It’s just being with someone who’s your friend. Like being with Andy, sometimes sitting in the back yard, with (..)Tiberius is our iguana, and he’s just sort of wandering around and there’s feral cats who come and stare at him. And sometimes Tiberius will chase the cats, and sometimes the cats will just come and sit like, almost right next to Tiberius. And it’ll be like, one of those unlikely friends that you’ll see.

Paul: We have a calendar. We have an unlikely friends calendar.

Jackie: With a black, a shitty black cat and our 3 ½ foot long iguana. ‘Cause Tiberius is an iguana. And uh… so… and you’re just like, “What is happening? And uh… but it’s just, I mean…”

Paul: It just feels right?

Jackie: It just feels right. And you know… and Los Angeles is so beautiful sometimes. Like the orange tree, and the whole nine yards. But here’s my dream! Sailboat-Kashian sails! I want to learn how to sail, you guys! Not wind sail-too hard. Uh… boat, boat, little sunfish, out on the ocean! Uh… or I want to, uh… clearly uh…. die *chuckles* on a sailboat, ‘cause I don’t know how to sail. But I would take lessons. I would take lessons.

Paul: Have you seen the documentary Deep Water?

Jackie: No.

Paul: Oh-you have to watch it. It’s about one of the first around the world sailing trips that set off from England in the 70s.

Jackie: Oh wow!

Paul: It’s a fantastic documentary.

Jackie: OK-‘cause I was thinking of Open Water.

Paul: Oh-the movie where the people get left behind?

Jackie: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: Yeah, no. I think this one is called Deep Water; I’m almost positive that’s what it’s called.

Jackie: OK-I used to-for, when that movie came out I said, I would rather die by means of open water than watch the movie Open Water.

*laughter*

Jackie: Can’t possibly watch that movie:

Paul: I’m gonna do another love.

Jackie: OK.

Paul: I love the opening of the song, “Black Sabbath,” by the band Black Sabbath. It’s so unlike everything before; it’s so unapologetic in its darkness. And gave birth to a genre of music, heavy metal, that gave me a chance to express my teenage emotions through playing guitar. It gave me my first teenage sense of self.

Jackie: OK-that’s amazing. There’s, there’s not a lot of-the song “My Life” by Billy Joel…

Paul: That’s a great song.

Jackie: It’s a great song. It’s the first time I ever heard about standup comedy, ‘cause it’s about the guy who comes to LA and does standup. And I remember I was uh… I must have been 13 and that was the 1st album I ever bought, ‘cause of that song. And uh… and I didn’t even know what stand-up comedy was. So…. It was weird. I knew who Zig Zigler was. I knew how to sell the sizzle, not the steak.

*laughter*

And uh…. but what one of my loves is… uh… finding, finding the thing in a family member to love.

Paul: Oh that’s a beautiful one.

Jackie: It’s one of my favorite things that I’ve been able to find, you know, like I’ve worked on. ‘Cause I have 4 brothers and a sister, and I have… cousins that are out of their damn minds. And I, I mean, we all have family members that are just bananas. They’re money in the banana stand, you guys. And you just want to find the thing that makes it possible for you to see them twice a year. You know? I mean… I don’t want to, whatever (..) One of my, one of my family members is the best thing I can say about him, is how sincere he is. You know? He is genuinely, he believes he’s right, and he has always been there for his family, and he works very, very hard to provide for them. And that is something I can respect, and I can love, and yet I can still be irritated when he is the bossiest fucking magoo at me. And, and I don’t have to listen to it. I mean, I don’t have to… But what I can do, is I can say, “You know, you are very sincere. You know-“And he WANTS-it’s, “Hi Terry- you listening?” Anyway, so…. Um… it’s my brother, Terry. He’s an Evangelist, and he is sometimes, but his, his belief system is not for me. You know? His belief of, what women should do in life, isn’t anything to do with how I live my life. Our sister is a lesbian, he does not approve of that. My sister has said out loud, one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard. She was mad one time, at one of our other brothers. And our father. And she said, “I know everybody wants me to be this sad, spinster lesbian who takes care of their kids. But fuck off! I am going to have a life of my own!” And I was like, “Please write a novel with that as the first sentence!” Because, I mean, and it’s-there’s-I mean-Terry-he just, he believes his, his Jesus is forgiving, but it’s also super judgmental. And the Jesus that I- I am a Christian. I don’t tell anyone, ‘cause anyone whoever says, “I am a Christian,” the next words out of their mouth is always something nightmarish. So I don’t tell anyone I’m a Christian, but… I have a very-and it’s a very nice Christ. Everything I’ve ever read that He’s ever said, he’s always been very supportive of people’s-he’s like, “No no, go forth into the world and be nice to each other! Don’t be a dick!” It’s always been a very-he seems to be a very nice man. I don’t know…. and Terry’s Jesus is always, it’s super bossy! And super judgmental! And you’re just like, “Man, there’s no way that Jesus would have been mad that I was living with my husband before we got married. There’s no way he would have gave a shit. He would have been like, “Well, whatever man.” And then kept doodling in the sand, ‘cause that’s what he was like.

Paul: My only fear of Jesus comes back is that he’s going to have too many emoticons on the closing of his emails.

*laughter*

Jackie: Did you ever read a book by Stephen Mitchell called The Gospel According to Jesus?

Paul: Mmhmm…

Jackie: Stephen Mitchell’s an amazing scholar, but he did a translation of uh… from a historical point of view, from the original *unintelligible* everything from the 5 Gospels, the big Gospels, you guys, nothing that the Vatican won’t show us. But uh… the-

Paul: The free birds of the Gospels.

Jackie: Right! All the hits. And uh… and it’s essentially, he pulls out of the Gospels all the things that, that, historically seem that Jesus might have actually said. And it’s short, you guys. Super short. It’s about 14 pages. And lot of margin, lot of margin! And uh… the indentation. But it’s beautiful, one of the most beautiful like-just a hint of how to live your life in a decent way and not be-

Paul: Not be super judgmental and exclude other people?

Jackie: Yeah-just, just genuinely… decent. And that’s, I mean-the greatest thing about the Armenia church when I was a kid was that it was in Armenian. Because I don’t speak Armenian. So literally, I would go to church and the vague thing that I would get was, be like the nice man in the picture. Oh an go get your dad some coffee. That was, ‘cause I was a girl child, there was a lot of “step and fetch it.”

*laughter*

But I don’t mind getting my dad coffee. I’ll get anybody coffee; I’m a good sport.

Paul: Well Jackie, thank you so much for coming-

Jackie: Thanks for having me!

Paul: -and sharing your life with us. And just being you and being so funny, and uh, I really appreciate it. Jackie Kashian, everybody.

*applause*

And thank you guys for coming out and thank you to those of you that live stream this.

Many many thanks to Jackie and those of you that flew in from uh… out of town to attend the festival. So flattering. And it’s nice to meet you guys in person, give you a high five and a hug. Actually like to do both of those at the same time and that way the person gets a nice nose full of your armpit.

Um… you know what Jackie could have used back in her day when she was doing laps in the day while trying to read a book at the same time? Uh… she could have used… Audible. If you guys have never downloaded an audio program from Audible, you do not know what you are missing. Um… if you go to audiblepodcast.com/mental, you can get a free audiobook and a 30-day trial today. Just by signing up. There’s so many great titles. They have over 180,000 different audio programs. And I’ve done it, I’ve subscribed and there are some great ones out there. There’s Martin Short’s autobiography, I downloaded, of course I shouldn’t use that for an example because right now I’m blanking on the name of the title. Um… A New Earth by Eckhardt Tolle. Download that; it is the most profound book I probably have ever read. Changed my life. And the nice thing about a book like that, is you can just listen to two minutes of it in the car. Especially when traffic is bad. And it will chill you out. It will change your day. Just two minutes of that book in the morning, will reset your compass. A book that really, really helped me, too, is Silently Seduced by Kenneth Adams. That book, if you were raised by a parent who treated you like you were their partner, you have to download and listen to Silently Seduced; it will help you. You will say, “Oh my God, that is my story.” So go to audiblepodcast.com/mental for a free audiobook and a 30 day trial.

Um.. yeah.. check it out. And also, I just want to give some love to audible for just being such great supporters of the podcasting community.

Alright, let’s get to some surveys.

Uh…actually, this is an email I got from a woman who wants to be referred to as Quantum Meruit, which roughly translates to, “You get what you pay for.” Um… she writes,

“Just dropping in to say, I was almost offended during the survey part of the Kate Spencer episode when you suggested to that woman who was having sexual conversations and sexting with an old crush because her boyfriend couldn’t get it up for a few beers, that she might have a sex addiction. Having threesomes and then looking for fulfillment outside of a current “primary relationship” does not mean there’s a sex addiction. She obviously has a few things going on, but as someone who is in a polyamorous relationship and knows many others who find success in them, I don’t believe one equals the other. I have a few relationships with men that fulfill certain emotional and physical needs that just don’t get met when I have to rely on just one person. Those needs have varied as my primary relationships and life stage have varied. However, one of my longest running relationships is with a secondary partner, three years. It hasn’t always been easy to follow some of the more stringent, or tough practices for the poly lifestyle, but it’s been worth it in the end. I’ve been honest with men I’ve dated and let them decide if they want to continue to see me. Some have; some haven’t. Sometimes I go months without sex, but derive important, life-sustaining things from my relationships nonetheless. I think that it’d also be great to consider adding this distinction to a future guest therapist podcast. Also, continuing to hear people feel ashamed of being turned on by BDSM is awful, and depressing. If I don’t get a solid flogging and shabari session (sp?) at least once a year, I start going through withdrawal. And if you can’t do at least one of the following: pulling my hair, holding me down, breath play, I’m not going to orgasm for you. It’s a fact that I’m not embarrassed about, and I wish others could find the safe space to feel this liberation, too. BTW-shabari (sp?) is Japanese rope tying used for tying people up decoratively or functionally (i.e. suspension puzzle knots; think of it as rope origami).”

Thank you for sharing that.

This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, from a woman who calls herself Struggling Parent. She is in her 40s, straight, raised in a totally chaotic environment, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. She was an adult when it happened. She’s been emotionally abused, she writes, “I’m pretty sure that my mom has an undiagnosed mental illness. My father was in the air force reserves when I was a kid. One weekend a month, two weeks a year. Sometimes my mom would get angry with me or dad, and I wouldn’t know why. The worst part, was that she would stop speaking to my dad or me, for days, sometimes weeks, at a time. It was not too bad if my dad was home. But when he was in the reserves, it was horrible. One of my earliest memories was of my dad being gone for the weekend and my mom was mad. Probably depressed. She locked herself in her room and wouldn’t come out all weekend. She didn’t cook for me or help me with my bath or comb my hair. I was 4 years old.”

Oh that is heartbreaking.

Any positive experiences with your abusers? “My mother was wonderful to be around when she wasn’t having one of her “episodes.” We used to take these amazing vacations to the beach and then walk along picking up shells. We have a decent relationship now; I confronted her about a year ago about how she treated me, but these memories still could my thinking and cause me to overthink my own parenting.

Darkest thoughts, “I love her, but I wish she would just die. I would sell her house, get rid of everything in it, and put the money from the sale in a college fund for my kid.”

Darkest secrets, “I also had a complicated relationship with my dad. He died about 20 years ago. He used to fall asleep in his recliner and his penis would always be erect, sticking out of his pants. Sometimes with his hand wrapped around it. I found his collection of porn mags in his car when I was 4. I caught him watching porn when I was a teenager. I told my mom this for the first time a few months ago, and her response was, “He cheated on me!” She didn’t ask me how I was feeling about it, or how it affected me. She just couldn’t get over the fact that “he cheated,” which I think is so fucking stupid, because I don’t think viewing porn constitutes cheating, but it messed my head up pretty bad.’

You know, my take on your dad was, that, that those were not accidents that uh… you know… I think your dad was trying to make it look like it was accidental. I think your dad was… uh… doing that stuff on purpose. It could be wrong, but that’s just what my gut tells me.

What, if anything, would you like to say someone that you haven’t been able to? “I’d like to ask my dad why he let my mom continue to parent me even though he knew she was insane?”

What, if anything, do you wish for? “Peace. And for both my mother and ex-mother-in-law to just die already.”

Have you shared these things with others? “Yeah, my hubby. He’s so sweet and supportive.”

How do you feel after writing these things down? “Actually pretty good.”

Anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? “If you’re struggling, please find a therapist that you feel comfortable with. Don’t stop until you find the right match. That person can often make a huge difference in your recovery.”

Amen. AMEN!

This is an awfulsome moment, filled out by a guy who calls himself Wolf Tamer. He writes, “I grew up in England and my wife grew up in the US. We met online and things got serious very quickly. We emailed back and forth for 4 months before I decided to fly out and meet her in person. The moment I saw her, I knew she was the one. I know it sounds cheesy, but seeing her was like coming home. She dropped me off at my hotel room, we chatted for a while, and then she went home so I could sleep off my jet lag. The next day, we went out for Chinese food. Then she and I went back to my hotel, where she stayed the night. We talked for hours and I felt such a connection to her that I opened up to her about my childhood abuse, which I had never told anyone before. I felt very vulnerable, but she seemed wonderful and accepting. We went to sleep, but I was awoken in the middle of the night with pain in my stomach. I ran to the bathroom only just getting there in time, where what I can only guess was bad food exploded out of me. Unfortunately, the fan in the bathroom didn’t work, so I couldn’t drown out the sound. It was incredibly loud and echoed. I knew that unless she was fast asleep, there was no way she didn’t hear me. That was when the anxiety started. Great. I told myself, “Just when I find someone I think I can be close to, I go and humiliate myself in front of her. She’s probably never going to be able to forget this. I will always be THAT GUY.” I slunk out of the bathroom, ready for my humiliation. But she was asleep. I got back in bed, and a little while later, she sneaked out of bed and into the bathroom. I could hear her clearly. She had the same issue as I just had. When she came out of the bathroom, we caught each other’s gaze, realized each other’s embarrassment and simply smiled. That was 15 years ago, and we’re still together. We now simply refer to that night as, “The Szechuan Incident.”

*sigh* Thank you for that.

This is (..) that’s like a watershed moment in a…. relationship, when… when just all the last little bit of dignity… is gone. It’s just those moments where you are just too raw human beings in front of each other, warts and all.

This is from the Struggle in a Sentence, filled out by Andrea, and about her depression, she writes, “I sit, I stare, I feel nothing. I want to move, but can’t force myself up.” Oh my God, do I relate to that.

About her alcoholism, she writes, “Is it wrong to drink vodka coolers out of diet cans at 8 AM?” Not if it’s a diet can!

Snapshot from her life, “I cry because of the season.” Oh, she also has PTSD.

Um… which she calls, “A mindfuck that consistently pushes away everyone I love.”

Snapshot from her life, “I cry because of the season. I feel nausea because of what happened. I feel terror, even though I know I am safe. Subtle smells trigger it. Certain words take me there. People I love, I had to leave behind, because they knew me then, and that alone fucks me up.”

Wow. Sending you some love. That sounds, that sounds like just a minefield every day. And if I could give you any advice, not that you’re asking for it, but start with dealing with the alcoholism, ‘cause I think it’s almost impossible to heal while still feeding an addiction.

This is a Shame and Secrets survey filled out by a guy who calls himself Functional Boozer, speaking of booze. He is straight, in his 30s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. He’s never been sexually abused, never been physically abused, but he has been emotionally abused. He doesn’t specify.

Darkest thoughts, “I sometimes fantasize about being a full-time drunk, living in Bombay Beach, near the Saltan Sea. It makes me depressed thinking about it, but at the same time, it is intriguing.” I, I, when I first read this, I was like, “Who the fuck fantasizes about the Saltan Sea?” For those of you who don’t know what the Saltan Sea is, it was this manmade…lake… inland from Los Angeles in the desert that backfired. And it turned really salty. And then just is in the process of dying. When they first made it, it was stocked with fish, and they built all these beautiful homes around it, and it was getting to be this little Nirvana. Um… and it is now just become just kind of a place where people that-how do I put this tactfully? People who want to live off the grid, and have nothing to do with society go to live. Lots of guns, lots of uh… I’m sure, I’m not gonna (..) In a nutshell, one of the most depressing places I think you could ever, ever live. Um… my point being, is, I understand that. I understand wanting to go towards the stinky. And by stinky, I don’t mean literally stinky, even though I’m sure the Saltan Sea probably doesn’t smell too good. But wanting to embrace, like, when I sometimes feel really cornered in my life, I think about draining my bank account and buying-mind you, I’ve never done heroin- buying as much heroin as I can, and going to a shitty hotel, in Seattle, and just doing heroin until I die. And I never picture it as a good hotel. I picture it as a depressing hotel. And there’s something comforting about that. What is that? Why- is it that we want our outsides to match our insides and that’s why we fantasize about that? I don’t know.

Darkest secrets, “Driven drunk many times with my two and five year-old in the car.” Oh man-please get help! Please get help!

Um… sexual fantasies most powerful to you? “I fantasize fucking two women while being filmed by a camera crew in a roomful of people.”

Um… “I’ve been hiding my drinking to everyone I know much like I did before I got sober the first time. Now I’m back where I started after being in the program for two years. I’m ashamed about going back out, but at times I’m enjoying it. So maybe I’m not done.”

What, if anything, do you wish for? “That I don’t have to crave getting fucked up anymore.”

Have you shared these things with others? “When I was regularly attending a support group, I did, but I haven’t been back in a year.”

Well, maybe it’s time to go back.

How do you feel after writing these things down? “A little hopeful that I’ll grow some balls and get my ass back to the room. At the same time, I’m fearful that I’ll get stuck and not make it back.”

And he would like more shows with addicts and/or recovering addicts.

I worry sometimes if I have too many addicts on this show. So that’s good to hear that there’s somebody that wants more. Sending you some love, buddy.

This is a Struggle in a Sentence filled out by a woman who calls herself Woman in a Potato’s Body. I am a fan, right out of the gate, I am a fan! About her depression, “The sheets on my bed are on upside down. The pillow case fell behind the bed, the dog is too short to climb up and comfort me, I better lay here forever and hope a comet comes by and kills me.” I think that should be the title of a book. Might be a little long.

And about her low self-esteem, she writes, “Thanks to my low self-esteem, working in a call answering center and talking to belligerent people whose cable is up is just great. Every time I get off a call, I shout, “I do good work!” to the empty work room. Surely, it will work eventually.

Such a visual. That’s like from a movie, just somebody getting yelled at, hanging up the phone, and saying, “I do good work!” to an empty room. Oh my God…

Thank you for that. Love when you guys make me laugh.

This is a Struggle in a Sentence filled out by Annie. She’s a teenager, and she writes, about her depression, “Nothing good that could ever happen is worth another day of being alive.” Um… about being African, and experiencing racial bias, she writes, “All my life, I’ve been told that the top of my head to the soles of my feet are ugly, and all my life, I’ve repeated this to myself.” Aww.

Snapshot from her life, “Lying in bed, planning a retirement trip with a friend over Skype as we do our homework, and having to put the finger over the webcam every so often to hide my tears because I know I won’t make it that far.” Aw, that just (..) I hope you open up to somebody, Annie. I hope you open up to somebody. And you can make it, you can make it. Things can get better.

You know, I bet if you didn’t put your finger over the webcam, and you let your friend see you cry, might help. Might help, I mean, I don’t know your relationship with your friend, but, um… we all need somebody to lean on and um… yeah. Anyway, thank you for sharing that

This is an awfulsome moment filled out by Mother of Parakeets, and she writes, “On Christmas Day a few years ago, we were opening presents, when my father realizes that I had gotten my mother a more expensive gift. Didn’t matter to him that I had put more thought into his gift than hers.” That doesn’t make sense, “That I put more thought into his gift than hers. Just that it was more expensive. Didn’t matter to him that I had put more thought…” I think she meant to say, I put more thought into her gift than his, uh… just that it was more expensive. Anyway, that’s not the important part, but thank you for bogging the show down, Paul. He flew into a rage and screamed that I loved her more. He said I didn’t like him because of his kinky hair. And that I ruined Christmas. He then stormed off, upstairs, to his room, and slammed the door. At the time, I cried, but now, I just laugh at my 60 year-old father’s childish behavior.” That is, in the four years, 4 ½ years, that might be the most childish parental outburst I’ve ever heard. And I think the “kinky hair” is the thing that just pushes it over the top. Oh my God. I know I shouldn’t laugh at his pain and his stunted emotional growth, but he also shouldn’t be so funny.

This is a Shame and Secrets Survey filled out by Emily S. And she is straight, in her 20s, raised in a stable and safe environment, although she qualifies, “Although my mom was extremely protective of me and didn’t help with my esteem issues.” That is always such a tough one. The overly protective parent, because on the surface, it seems like it’s just from a pure place of love, but really, there’s like an element of control and um… condescension to it that is, I think really corrosive.

Have you ever been the victim of sexual abuse? “Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts as sexual abuse. One time, when I was in 3rd grade, my cousin who was older than I am came over and he helped me with a drawing. When he was about to leave, he asked for a kiss and I didn’t want to, but he pulled me and kissed me on the lips.”

Have you ever been physically or emotionally abused? “Not sure. I’m not sure if this counts-“ This kills me, “I’m not sure if this counts, but people keep telling me that I’m stupid.” Yeah, I think that might be emotional abuse. And by the way, I like how I inform her of that in a way that is insulting. Nicely done, Paul.

“My sister, when I decided to take nursing in college, told me that my brains cannot handle it. But I was able to pass the entrance exam and survive a year of nursing school before switching to another program. I still think about her comment a lot, and other comments similar to it.”

Any positive experiences with your abusers? “My cousin never did anything like that again. I don’t know if it was just an innocent kiss or if it was sexual abuse. He’s a good guy in general.” It sounds pretty innocent to me, but, you know, ultimately, it’s how we feel about it, is much more important than how it’s classified. And if it didn’t bother you, then you know… everything’s cool.

Darkest thoughts, “When I’m really mad, I sometimes imagine myself going insane and pushing people I know in front of trains and living a peaceful life after it, because then there would be no one to comment on everything I do, and I would stop overthinking things.”

You would have to push a lot of people in front of a lot of trains. And eventually, word is gonna get around that the train pusher is down in the station, and people are going to stop taking the train. So your plan, no matter how successful, you get it going, is going to get diminishing returns. So what you’re going to have to do, is you’re going to have to start bringing in buses, and then airplanes. And then eventually ricksha