EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: With the Prime Minister today declaring that he'd like to put a ban on the radical Islamic organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir, spokesman for the group, Wassim Doureihi, joins me now.

Thank you for coming in.

WASSIM DOUREIHI, HIZB UT-TAHRIR: Thank you.

EMMA ALBERICI: We've invited you here tonight to help Australians better understand what it is that you stand for. So tell me first of all, do you support the murderous campaign being waged by Islamic State fighters in Iraq?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Well, thank you very much for the opportunity. There is an urgent need in this country to have quite open and honest conversation. I want to take a moment just to take a step back. (Inaudible). I will come specifically - I will come ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But I would like you to take this moment to my question only because we will have some time to go through a number of issues and I don't want to run out of time.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I will come specifically to that question. We won't run out of time. We'll definitely address the most important and pertinent points. The first point is this: that when we discuss the events in the Middle East, in the Muslim world, our entry point shouldn't be what ISIS is doing or not doing. ISIS exists in a particular context. What's that context? That context is a century or more of colonial occupation at the hands of the very governments ...

EMMA ALBERICI: And I don't want to talk to you about the context at this point in time. I want to address the ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I will.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... very specific nature of my question, ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I will, I will. And the fact that ...

EMMA ALBERICI: ... which is the tactics ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: The fact that ...

EMMA ALBERICI: ... that this group is employing. Do you support them or not?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: The fact that we don't want to have this discussion now is indicative of where the entire discussion on the war on terror narrative goes. The fact is the entire response isn't what Muslims are doing or may not be doing, but no-one legitimately or sincerely is discussing what Western governments are doing in the Muslim world. Groups like ISIS or al-Qaeda don't exist in a vacuum. They exist as a reaction to Western interference in the Islamic lands and they view themselves, rightfully or wrongfully, irrespective of my opinion or otherwise, as a resistance effort to what they regard as an unjust occupation.

EMMA ALBERICI: And with respect, many commentators all over the world have made that very point. What I'm asking you specifically is their tactics. Of course people are angry; we understand that. But what I'm asking you is the tactic that's being employed to push back. Do you support it?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Well let me explain something very clearly. I will explain very clearly.

EMMA ALBERICI: Answer my question, please.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I'll explain to you why the question itself is quite disconcerting, because what we're talking about is a particular reality where millions have lost their lives. Countries have been destroyed, homes ...

EMMA ALBERICI: You are clearly obfuscating ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Absolutely not.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... and I did not invite you ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: No, I reject that, I reject the accusation.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... onto this program to do that.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I'll say very clearly: why is it not offensive ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Why will you not point blank condemn the actions of IS fighters?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Why is it not offensive - because the question itself is offensive.

EMMA ALBERICI: Men who cut off the heads of innocent journalists and aid workers. Why will you not take the opportunity?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: You can ask the question - you can ask the question ...

EMMA ALBERICI: You have a national platform here.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Yes. And I'm quite aware of that.

EMMA ALBERICI: Why don't you adopt the leadership that many have obviously given you responsibility for?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: The question is: why won't you allow me to answer the question that I deem appropriate.

EMMA ALBERICI: Answer it.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I've answered the question quite - quite directly. We're talking about a reality in which millions have lost their lives directly as a consequence of the foreign policies of countries like Australia and ...

EMMA ALBERICI: And you have made that point and I allowed you to make that point.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: But what hasn't been made, what hasn't been made is what are we going to do about it? There is little discussion ...

EMMA ALBERICI: The viewers will make their own judgments about the points ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Of course they will. And I have absolute trust in the Australian population.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... you have made. And now I would just draw you back to my question.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Yeah, and I'll keep repeating the same point. This cannot possibly be our entry point in this discussion ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Do you support ....

WASSIM DOUREIHI: ... because why is the attention on ISIS - what ISIS is doing or not doing? Our position on ISIS is very clear. Our position on ISIS was released years before Tony Abbott wanted to make it a political issue.

EMMA ALBERICI: OK, for those who haven't read it, tell me.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: We come from a very clear - a very clear perspective. Our moral compass is not based on political expediency. Assad has been slaughtering hundreds of thousands and Tony Abbott has not moved a single fighter jet to oust him from his position. How are we supposed to believe that this current mission is a humanitarian one when 300,000 ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Because we were invited in by a legitimately-elected government in Iraq.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: The question is on the matter of principles - are we seriously ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Syria is in the midst of a civil war. That is a separate conversation to the one we are discussing here.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: But that's a very convenient excuse. We're talking principles. If we're supposed to be outraged ...

EMMA ALBERICI: I am discussing with you the tactics of a group ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Of course you are.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... that is masquerading behind ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: And of course it's understandable.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... a religion which many people ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Yes.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... who follow that religion ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Yes.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... do not agree with and in fact condemn.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: And let's take the argument further. Let's take the argument further.

EMMA ALBERICI: People like community leaders here in Australia like Dr Jamal Rifi, who has publicly condemned the actions of Islamic State. Why won't you do the same?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: My clear position is that we took a clear position on ISIS long before Western politicians wanted to make - wanted to use ISIS as the latest bogeyman. Let's not forget that a million people lost their lives based on a lie, based on a lie. Let's not forget the whole charade around the weapons of mass destruction.

EMMA ALBERICI: I don't think - I don't think people forget that and there have been calls and commissions ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Tony Abbott is wanting us to believe that the greatest threat to all of us is the actions of a group, of a handful of individuals and no-one wants to discuss what has caused the death of a million civilians in Iraq.

EMMA ALBERICI: Are you outraged by - are you outraged by the image of an Australian-born child of seven years old holding up severed heads like trophies in Iraq or Syria?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Let me tell you what I am outraged by.

EMMA ALBERICI: So you won't even answer that question.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Are you going to allow me to answer - are you going to allow me to answer the question?

EMMA ALBERICI: What are the Australian public to make of this kind of ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: If you wanted a one-way discussion ...

EMMA ALBERICI: No. I think you're the one who wanted the one-way discussion.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: If you wanted a one-way discussion, you would not - you did not - you did not necessarily have to invite me.

EMMA ALBERICI: I am asking you legitimate questions, ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: You're asking the question, baiting for a particular response.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... which you have obviously come here knowing you didn't want to answer.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: No, you've come to push a particular view. Because you're not getting the answer you want ...

EMMA ALBERICI: No, I've come here to ask you answers so you can ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Because you're not getting the answer you want.

EMMA ALBERICI: I just want - in many cases I just want a yes or no.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Let me make it very clear: you've invited me on to this platform to express my views.

EMMA ALBERICI: Yes!

WASSIM DOUREIHI: You're not allowing me to do that.

EMMA ALBERICI: But you want to express your views quite separate to the questions that I'm putting to you.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I'm answering the question that I deem appropriate.

EMMA ALBERICI: Let me ask you a different question and let's see if you might engage with that one. Your group is calling for a caliphate governed by sharia law. What would that look like in Australia?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: This is the absurdity of this entire discussion. Why is the focus, given the context of the war on terror, entirely upon what Muslims are doing or not doing? Why are we ...

EMMA ALBERICI: OK, let me ask you another one. OK, you're not going to engage with that one.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: No, no, let me be very clear. No, no, no, no, let me be very clear: just because you don't get the answer you want, just because I'm not reinforcing an Islamic-phobic narrative that justifies the wholesale slaughter of entire populations ...

EMMA ALBERICI: You can dispel any supposed phobia out there ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: No, I'm explaining the context in which this entire discussion is happening.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... by putting a line in the sand and giving people a yes or a no about what your position is.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: All your doing - all your doing is reinforcing the view - we can continue - we can continue to talk over each other. Your job is to ask the questions and to listen to my response. If you wanted to push an agenda, let's swap seats. If you wanted to communicate a position ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But my job is not to ask questions ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Of course it is.

EMMA ALBERICI: ... and have you answer something entirely different.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Your job is to ask the question and to canvass my opinions. That's why I was introduced into this program. If you wanted to dictate my response, if you wanted to dictate terms of acceptability, then take my position. But ask me a question and at least afford me the respect and the opportunity to answer it. I come from a very clear point of view that as Muslims we have a fixed moral compass that says it's unequivocally, under any conditions, it's an aberration to kill innocent civilians. Tony Abbott cannot say that. John Howard dismissed ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Who do you consider - who do you consider ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: the slaughter of half a million - dismissed the slaughter of half a million civilians as an embarrassment.

EMMA ALBERICI: OK, let's nut down ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Let's talk about morality here. Let's talk about who is the greatest threat to civilian life.

EMMA ALBERICI: I think people are very clear of your point of view. They're clear on that point of view. You've expressed it a number of times.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Yes. And what's my message?

EMMA ALBERICI: Now let me ask you this: ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: My message is: this is where the discussion needs to be.

EMMA ALBERICI: Will you take this opportunity now to urge young Muslim men here in Australia not to join Islamic State fighters in Iraq and Syria?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: And I'll answer in the exact same way. The war on terror narrative works in this way: it presents the West as the good guy and Muslims as the bad guy and we are what represents an existential threat to the entire world. That's an absurdity. It is not Muslims who are flying B-52s. It is not Muslims who are dropping bombs from their fighter jets. It is not Muslims who are occupying foreign lands! Don't come to me ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But it is Islamic State fighters who are killing Muslims ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: No, don't come to me and pretend that the greatest threat to all of us ...

EMMA ALBERICI: They're killing Christians, they're murdering Kurds.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: We're talking about - I'm glad you raised that point. Do you know why? Because how are we expected to believe that the West is concerned about the life of minorities when it is the majority that is being slaughtered? How are we supposed to take those arguments seriously? How are we supposed to take the moral compass seriously when people like Madeleine Albright dismisses lives of half a million or a million through sanction ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Will you answer just one question that I ask you?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I'm answering very clearly because - just because ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Specifically addressing the question I'm asking you?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I'm not answering the question.

EMMA ALBERICI: Can do me a favour? But will you do me a favour and ask - answer one question?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I'm doing the public - I'm doing the public a great favour by refocusing this discussion where it needs to be. Ask yourselves very clearly: the Australian public - I believe in the Australian public more than Tony Abbott does. I believe that as human beings they will ...

EMMA ALBERICI: What do you think the Australian public will make ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: ... identify with innocent life taken wrongly anywhere around the world.

EMMA ALBERICI: What will the Australian public make of the fact that you will not ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: They understand this point.

EMMA ALBERICI: What will the Australian public make of the fact that you will not sit here and tell your fellow Muslim men not to join Islamic State fighters in Iraq and Syria?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: I believe 100 per cent that the Australian public will see through the rhetoric. Tony Abbott and others who adopt his script are famous for their dog-whistle politics, are famous for their policies around marginalisation and xenophobia. That's not a - that's not some great, new revelation. They campaign on this basis specifically because they don't want to confront the truth, and the truth is it is not Muslims who are occupying foreign lands, it is not Muslims who are killing millions of civilians and it is not Muslims who are shaking hands with barbaric tyrants ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Where are we occupying foreign lands?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Barbaric tyrants.

EMMA ALBERICI: Where are we occupying foreign lands?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: After 300,000 lives have been lost in Syria ...

EMMA ALBERICI: OK, now I'm engaging with your comments. Where are we - where are we ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Iraq, Afghanistan.

EMMA ALBERICI: We're not occupying Iraq.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Supporting an international architecture that enslaves entire populations.

EMMA ALBERICI: We're not - we're not - we're not occupying Iraq.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: You can place whatever spin you like. We live it, we experience it.

EMMA ALBERICI: The democratically-elected government in Iraq has invited us in.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: We experience it. And that's why as a Muslim, ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Isn't that a little different to occupying ...

WASSIM DOUREIHI: ... I'm telling the Australian public the reality of what this government is doing in our lands. We live it. It's not an academic exercise. It's not about ...

EMMA ALBERICI: No, you're living in Australia. You're an Australian resident, you're an Australian citizen.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: It's not about point-scoring.

EMMA ALBERICI: You're not living anything in Iraq.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: The Australian public needs to know - we need to have an honest conversation about what this government doing in your name and it is frightening. John Howard dismissed half a million lives ...

EMMA ALBERICI: And what are Islamic - what are Islamic - what are Islamic State fighters doing in your name?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: ... as a mere embarrassment and he did it in the people's name, in the people's name. And this is the dilemma: you want the focus, you want the world to believe that what is of greatest concern is what a handful of individuals are doing in response, in response to what is being done upon them?

EMMA ALBERICI: Sounds like there's about 30,000. There are about 30,000 now, we're being told. That's hardly a handful.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Let's talk about the other side. Let's talk about - let's talk about the fact that they exist as a reaction to what exists on the ground. And what exists on the ground? Foreign occupation, political repression.

EMMA ALBERICI: Does that justify beheading? Does that justify the slaughter of innocents?

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Does that justify the subjectivity around this discussion? Why don't you condemn what the Australian Government is doing? Why don't you condemn what the American Government is doing? Why don't you condemn the innocent killing of a million lives in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why don't you do that? Why don't you hold the Government to account?

EMMA ALBERICI: We're out of time. We're out of time, surprise.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: Very conveniently.

EMMA ALBERICI: Well, we are out of time. We don't have an infinite amount of time to talk to you. But thanks for coming in nonetheless.

WASSIM DOUREIHI: It is my pleasure.