Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:22 PM

Spoiler



Joysticks are neat. Not only do they look awesome on your desk, but they're also the best option for applying linear and sustained input in two or three axis. For example: Turning a 'Mech. If you set it to a key on your keyboard, you can hold down that key and your 'Mech will turn for as long as you have the key held down. That is sustained input, but since there are only two modes - on and off - you cannot, say, choose to turn your 'Mech at half speed. A mouse input is capable of turning your 'Mech at varied speed, but you must lift up the mouse and move it to the other side of the mat to continue turning. In other words, the input is linear, but not sustained. With a joystick, if you choose to turn your 'Mech, you need only set the joystick X axis to turning and push the joystick in the direction you want to turn. How fast the 'Mech turns is dictated by how far you push the joystick over, and how long it turns is dictated by how long you push the joystick over.



Now, what I consider to be the bare minimum for a joystick in the modern gaming world is two-axis. Forward-Back and Left-Right. The good news is that most joysticks and HOTAS solutions nowadays do one better than this by adding a third axis. In flight sims, pushing the stick back and forth moves your elevators(pitch up and down). Side-to-side movement moves your ailerons(roll side to side). The third axis controls the rudder(yaw side to side). Rudder is extremely important in air combat for ground movement(taxi) and aiming.



Mechwarrior brings a whole new aspect to the third axis, as well as a decision. Mechwarrior games have both torso twist and 'Mech turning. Some people prefer to have their Z axis control torso twist, while others prefer to set this to turning. My advice here is to give both a fair shake, and see what you prefer more.



When it comes to choosing a stick, the Z axis turns into another choice. Many joysticks assign the Z axis to a twisting action on the stick. These sticks are called, creatively enough, twisty sticks. There is, however, a large group of people that prefer to offload the twisting to a pair of rudder pedals, another joystick, or even just tying the Z axis to the keyboard. The major reason for this is unintended axis movement. As you use a joystick, either by using the X and Y axis, pulling the trigger, or pushing buttons, there's a good chance you are unintentionally twisting the stick a small amount. This can lead to decreased accuracy. Below is a illustration of what a twisty stick looks like. Note the red Z axis arrows denoting twist.







So are rudder pedals better, or are twisty sticks the way to go? Honestly, it's completely up to you. There are several important considerations: One, a twisty takes up less space and tends to be cheaper since you don't have to buy pedals. But the pedal setup can result in more accuracy. Twist+pedals has been debated to death, and my stance is that you should try both.



What about the difference between HOTAS and normal joysticks?



HOTAS stands for Hands On Throttle And Stick. Basically, the majority of your fine control is going to be through the stick, throttle, and(perhaps) pedals. So if your hands are tied up doing those important things, there's not a whole lot of time to be slapping keys on the keyboard. A HOTAS setup ensures that there are enough buttons on the joystick and throttle for you to do everything you need to do without touching the keyboard.



Consider this joystick:



It's a good joystick. Accurate, very reliable, decently ergonomic. And yet, it is considered hopelessly outclassed in the world of joysticks. Why? It only has two buttons, including the trigger. Since the trigger is usually firing weapons, that only really leaves one button free for... anything else.



Compare that to a later joystick by the same company:



Well now. Not only are there more buttons, most of them are multidirectional. And on top of that, each button can do three different things thanks to a three-mode shift. Here we see that this individual has literally run out of things to assign to his joystick, and he hasn't even gotten to his throttle buttons yet.



Sometimes simple trumps complex, but other times you just need a whole lot of buttons to throw at a problem.



(if there's anything else you think should be here, let me know!)

Joystick? HOTAS? Huh?Joysticks are neat. Not only do they look awesome on your desk, but they're also the best option for applying linear and sustained input in two or three axis. For example: Turning a 'Mech. If you set it to a key on your keyboard, you can hold down that key and your 'Mech will turn for as long as you have the key held down. That is sustained input, but since there are only two modes - on and off - you cannot, say, choose to turn your 'Mech at half speed. A mouse input is capable of turning your 'Mech at varied speed, but you must lift up the mouse and move it to the other side of the mat to continue turning. In other words, the input is linear, but not sustained. With a joystick, if you choose to turn your 'Mech, you need only set the joystick X axis to turning and push the joystick in the direction you want to turn. How fast the 'Mech turns is dictated by how far you push the joystick over, and how long it turns is dictated by how long you push the joystick over.Now, what I consider to be the bare minimum for a joystick in the modern gaming world is two-axis. Forward-Back and Left-Right. The good news is that most joysticks and HOTAS solutions nowadays do one better than this by adding a third axis. In flight sims, pushing the stick back and forth moves your elevators(pitch up and down). Side-to-side movement moves your ailerons(roll side to side). The third axis controls the rudder(yaw side to side). Rudder is extremely important in air combat for ground movement(taxi) and aiming.Mechwarrior brings a whole new aspect to the third axis, as well as a decision. Mechwarrior games have both torso twist and 'Mech turning. Some people prefer to have their Z axis control torso twist, while others prefer to set this to turning. My advice here is to give both a fair shake, and see what you prefer more.When it comes to choosing a stick, the Z axis turns into another choice. Many joysticks assign the Z axis to a twisting action on the stick. These sticks are called, creatively enough, twisty sticks. There is, however, a large group of people that prefer to offload the twisting to a pair of rudder pedals, another joystick, or even just tying the Z axis to the keyboard. The major reason for this is unintended axis movement. As you use a joystick, either by using the X and Y axis, pulling the trigger, or pushing buttons, there's a good chance you are unintentionally twisting the stick a small amount. This can lead to decreased accuracy. Below is a illustration of what a twisty stick looks like. Note the red Z axis arrows denoting twist.So are rudder pedals better, or are twisty sticks the way to go? Honestly, it's completely up to you. There are several important considerations: One, a twisty takes up less space and tends to be cheaper since you don't have to buy pedals. But the pedal setup can result in more accuracy. Twist+pedals has been debated to death, and my stance is that you should try both.What about the difference between HOTAS and normal joysticks?HOTAS stands for Hands On Throttle And Stick. Basically, the majority of your fine control is going to be through the stick, throttle, and(perhaps) pedals. So if your hands are tied up doing those important things, there's not a whole lot of time to be slapping keys on the keyboard. A HOTAS setup ensures that there are enough buttons on the joystick and throttle for you to do everything you need to do without touching the keyboard.Consider this joystick:It's a good joystick. Accurate, very reliable, decently ergonomic. And yet, it is considered hopelessly outclassed in the world of joysticks. Why? It only has two buttons, including the trigger. Since the trigger is usually firing weapons, that only really leaves one button free for... anything else.Compare that to a later joystick by the same company:Well now. Not only are there more buttons, most of them are multidirectional. And on top of that, each button can do three different things thanks to a three-mode shift. Here we see that this individual has literally run out of things to assign to his joystick, and he hasn't even gotten to his throttle buttons yet.Sometimes simple trumps complex, but other times you just need a whole lot of buttons to throw at a problem.(if there's anything else you think should be here, let me know!)

Spoiler



Potentiometers(Pots): By far the most common type of sensor. This sensor functions via contact, and is available in a very wide variety of qualities. All pots will eventually wear out due to contact, but high quality pots can last a very, very long time and be very accurate. Low quality pots are the worst. Sometimes the casing is easily compromised, leading to dust and debris mucking with the contacts. This tends to lead to spiking, which I will cover later. Below is an example of a joystick using pots.



Notice the springs used for centering the stick.



Hall-effect Sensors(Halls): Rapidly gaining popularity, Halls are contactless and fuction via magnetics. This means that debris will generally not cause spiking, and the high quality halls can be very accurate in terms of reporting. They also come in low-quality versions which may fail sooner, but I would take a low-quality hall over a low-quality pot any day of the week. Below is an example of a stick using hall-effect sensors.



Notice the springs used for centering the stick. Also note the similarity between the Hall sensors and the old-fashioned pots above. They can be difficult to tell apart.



At the end of the day, sensors play a big part in how accurate your stick is. But they probably don't play the biggest part unless they are malfunctioning. A malfunctioning pot, for example, may start spiking. Spiking is simply when the input report does not match what you are actually doing. For example, let's say we have a properly functioning joystick:

You move the joystick to the left 15%, the joystick says your moving 15% to the left. You move to 20%, it says 20%. So on and so forth .

A bad sensor may look like this:

You move the joystick to the left 15%, it says 15%. You move to 20%, it says 100%. You move to 35%, it says 35%.



This can lead to a staggered movement curve and is not at all good for accuracy. Worse, the pots may simply not report sections of movement. Or worse still, it may simply stop reporting at all.



The biggest impact on accuracy is probably the centering mechanism. There are a few ways of handling centering.



Dual spring: Seen in both examples above, this seems to be the most common. In both examples, you can see how the quality of stick greatly impacts the rating of the springs and their mounting. Poor examples of this tend to have large amounts of center slop, where you can move the joystick quite a bit before it starts reporting.



Saturn Ring:



Not seen very often. The joystick is mounted on a ball joint, and a large half-beehive spring is wrapped around it. I haven't used this myself, but it seems to me to be one of the best mechanisms. Found in a few older sticks, most notably the Suncom F-15Es and Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pros. The Thrustmaster Cougar also seems to use a miniaturized saturn ring setup.



Plate-and-spring:



Seen fairly frequently, and by far my least favorite. A spring is placed on the same axis as the joystick, and mounted on a plate. The curved plate slides across a bowl-shaped impression in the base, and this causes the stick to want to return to center. Even done well, there is still a large center detent that takes a fair bit of force to move out of center, and that force is less than needed to move the stick after that. This results in a very inaccurate center.



Force-Feedback Centering: Only seen on force feedback sticks, each electrical motor that is responsible for providing feedback is also responsible for returning the stick to center. When the joystick is off, it does not center. I don't mind this method. It can result in mushy centers, but as long as the sensors still report stick position, I can live with it.



A WORD ON CENTER DETENTS AND CENTER SLOP:

Centering is important. If your joystick does not center correctly, it will report that the stick is tilted when it is not. In flight sims, for example, if the joystick does not properly center, your plane may continually roll when your hand is off the stick. In a 'Mech sim, the 'Mech may turn or torso twist while your hand is off the stick.



So I understand why a robust centering mechanism is important. But accuracy is also important. If the stick is difficult to remove from center, or has a lot of center slop, your center accuracy will be low compared to the accuracy of the stick tilted. In flight sims, where most dogfights include lots of pulling back on the stick, center accuracy isn't as important. In 'Mech sims however, much of your aiming time is spent at or near center. For us Mechwarrior, this means that choosing a stick with excellent center behavior is key.



The final peice of the accuracy puzzle is ergonomics. Here, you're on your own. Each person has their own individual tastes; I've absolutely hated joysticks that others have loved, and vice versa. Joysticks are one of those things you really should try to test drive first if at all possible.



The buttons on a joystick are fairly straightforward. You push, it says you pushed it. Buttons may be multidirectional. Triggers may be two-stage(first click does one thing, second click does another). But at the end of the day, the button working is the important part. Personally, I hate loose buttons. I call it button slop. Drives me nuts. Most people don't mind loose buttons though. To each their own.



(if you think anything else should be added here, let me know!)

In the most simple terms, joysticks read how far you are pushing the stick and convert that to digital inputs for your computer to read. Of course, there are varying methods used to this, but two are the most common:Potentiometers(Pots): By far the most common type of sensor. This sensor functions via contact, and is available in a very wide variety of qualities. All pots will eventually wear out due to contact, but high quality pots can last a very, very long time and be very accurate. Low quality pots are the worst. Sometimes the casing is easily compromised, leading to dust and debris mucking with the contacts. This tends to lead to spiking, which I will cover later. Below is an example of a joystick using pots.Notice the springs used for centering the stick.Hall-effect Sensors(Halls): Rapidly gaining popularity, Halls are contactless and fuction via magnetics. This means that debris will generally not cause spiking, and the high quality halls can be very accurate in terms of reporting. They also come in low-quality versions which may fail sooner, but I would take a low-quality hall over a low-quality pot any day of the week. Below is an example of a stick using hall-effect sensors.Notice the springs used for centering the stick. Also note the similarity between the Hall sensors and the old-fashioned pots above. They can be difficult to tell apart.At the end of the day, sensors play a big part in how accurate your stick is. But they probably don't play the biggest part unless they are malfunctioning. A malfunctioning pot, for example, may start spiking. Spiking is simply when the input report does not match what you are actually doing. For example, let's say we have a properly functioning joystick:A bad sensor may look like this:This can lead to a staggered movement curve and is not at all good for accuracy. Worse, the pots may simply not report sections of movement. Or worse still, it may simply stop reporting at all.The biggest impact on accuracy is probably the centering mechanism. There are a few ways of handling centering.Dual spring: Seen in both examples above, this seems to be the most common. In both examples, you can see how the quality of stick greatly impacts the rating of the springs and their mounting. Poor examples of this tend to have large amounts of center slop, where you can move the joystick quite a bit before it starts reporting.Saturn Ring:Not seen very often. The joystick is mounted on a ball joint, and a large half-beehive spring is wrapped around it. I haven't used this myself, but it seems to me to be one of the best mechanisms. Found in a few older sticks, most notably the Suncom F-15Es and Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pros. The Thrustmaster Cougar also seems to use a miniaturized saturn ring setup.Plate-and-spring:Seen fairly frequently, and by far my least favorite. A spring is placed on the same axis as the joystick, and mounted on a plate. The curved plate slides across a bowl-shaped impression in the base, and this causes the stick to want to return to center. Even done well, there is still a large center detent that takes a fair bit of force to move out of center, and that force is less than needed to move the stick after that. This results in a very inaccurate center.Force-Feedback Centering: Only seen on force feedback sticks, each electrical motor that is responsible for providing feedback is also responsible for returning the stick to center. When the joystick is off, it does not center. I don't mind this method. It can result in mushy centers, but as long as the sensors still report stick position, I can live with it.A WORD ON CENTER DETENTS AND CENTER SLOP:Centering is important. If your joystick does not center correctly, it will report that the stick is tilted when it is not. In flight sims, for example, if the joystick does not properly center, your plane may continually roll when your hand is off the stick. In a 'Mech sim, the 'Mech may turn or torso twist while your hand is off the stick.So I understand why a robust centering mechanism is important. But accuracy is also important. If the stick is difficult to remove from center, or has a lot of center slop, your center accuracy will be low compared to the accuracy of the stick tilted. In flight sims, where most dogfights include lots of pulling back on the stick, center accuracy isn't as important. In 'Mech sims however, much of your aiming time is spent at or near center. For us Mechwarrior, this means that choosing a stick with excellent center behavior is key.The final peice of the accuracy puzzle is ergonomics. Here, you're on your own. Each person has their own individual tastes; I've absolutely hated joysticks that others have loved, and vice versa. Joysticks are one of those things you really should try to test drive first if at all possible.The buttons on a joystick are fairly straightforward. You push, it says you pushed it. Buttons may be multidirectional. Triggers may be two-stage(first click does one thing, second click does another). But at the end of the day, the button working is the important part. Personally, I hate loose buttons. I call it button slop. Drives me nuts. Most people don't mind loose buttons though. To each their own.(if you think anything else should be added here, let me know!)

LOGITECH

Attack 3:

Spoiler Ladies and gentlemen, this is about as simple as it gets. Logitech makes some very ergonomic sticks in the lower price range, and this stick is no exception. It feels great in the hand, and is 100% lefty-friendly. Unless that lefty wants the stick to twist. Yes, this budget stick has no twist, but if you're planning on getting rudder pedals and want to save a load of cash on your stick, this may be for you. But since most buyers at this price point are hoping for a twist stick, it's listed as a con. The lack of a multidirectional hat switch is troublesome, but may not be as big of an issue in Mechwarrior. The one thing I really remember about this stick is the throttle - no tab means that it's somewhat annoying to use on the fly.

Like all low-priced Logitech sticks, it uses a two-spring centering setup with a rubber ring at the base. The rubber ring at the base of the stick seems to act as a mechanical input smoothing device, and functions quite well. There are, however, large issues with center slop, and the stick is relatively difficult to move. The plastic is obviously of relatively low quality, but is very well assembled. The buttons function well, but there is a lot of button slop. Standard warnings about Logitech potentiometers apply.

Extreme 3D Pro:

Spoiler Probably one of the most most-purchased joysticks on the market right now. Very similar in function to the Attack 3, but adds several very important features. One is the Z-Axis twist, a must-have for anyone not willing to go the rudder pedal route. Since most buyers at this price point see the twist as a positive, it's listed as such. This stick also adds a very convenient tab on the throttle. This takes throttle manipulation from a pain in the rear to quite pleasant. Finally, it gains a hat switch. The base is wider than that of the Attack 3, but the rubber feet are small and quite slippery. Both Extreme 3Ds I had would slide about the table quite easily. This is aggravated by the hard throw of the joystick. Finally, both of these joysticks gained rather bad spiking issues in every axis within 6 months. The Z axis is particularly bad.

Now, I do love the ergonomics of this stick, and I can forgive the terrible center detent thanks to the silky-smooth movement outside of center. But for a 'Mech sim? No way. If you do buy this stick, I suggest getting an in-store warranty so you can swap them out when they go bad. Everything I said about the plastic quality, assembly quality, and button slop in the Attack 3 is also valid here. Standard warnings about Logitech potentiometers apply.



G940:

Spoiler Logitech released something extremely interesting to me when they released the G940. If nothing else, it's a complete HOTAS system(including pedals!) with a set of features that are almost unmatched. Let's look at the high points: Loads of buttons, hall sensors in the joystick, good build quality, good pedals, and - get ready for this - force feedback. Where else can you get an integrated HOTAS setup with force feedback? This alone puts it in a category of its own, and that's before considering that you can pick up the G940 system at a price that's below some other HOTAS setups.

Now the bad news: Fans of the old Microsoft Force Feedback Sidewinders won't be too happy with the G940s FFB. Now, force feedback tends to feel grainy, but the graininess in the G940 is much more coarse. Also, while the joystick uses hall sensors for the X and Y axis, the throttle and the ever-important rudder pedals use pots. There are numerous reports of these failing after a few months with critical spiking errors. Remember the standard warnings about Logitech potentiometers? Also, there are some serious issues with centering, as this stick uses force feedback centering.

Last bit to chew on: The price is very comparable to other setups, but comes in at about the same price as a CH Products setup. Sure, you miss out on force feedback, but you gain one of the best center detents in the business and CH reliability. It all comes down to how much you want force feedback.



SAITEK

Aviator:

Spoiler I'll be honest with you: I don't get this stick. Stylistically, it seems to be targeting WW2 sim fans, but it has enough modern edge to make me wonder. Also, if they're targeting WW2 sim fans hardcore enough to want a WW2 styled joystick, why bother making it a twist-stick? Since many buyers at this price point are looking for twist, I begrudgingly listed twist as a positive. Also, the palm rest seems way lower than it should be. Perhaps it is adjustable - the one I handled had no palm rest, so I cannot confirm one way or another. Dual quadrant throttle sounds really nice, until you realize you have to reach around the stick to access the second throttle. And on top of it all, it just didn't seem very ergonomic. Trigger was too far forward, the thumb buttonplate seemed superfluous and the smooth shaft made twisting more difficult than it had to be. The switchplate on the front of the unit is pretty cool, but I don't know if that justifies the cost. All of these problems are made so much worse by the poor build quality. While there isn't a terrible amount of stick slop, there is a ton of button slop. On the unit I used, there was an uncomfortable amount of twist slop as well.

The downsides of the spring-and-plate centering system are very apparent on this stick, as there seems to be no effort to smooth out the transition. That being said, the throws felt easier than the X45(but not the X52), so the problem wasn't as bad as it could be.



F.L.Y 5:

Spoiler Confession time: I've never had a chance to get my hands on this. That being said, it looks very familiar. It definitely looks to be the latest incarnation of the original Cyborg with its customizable geometry. But it just doesn't look as comfortable as the original. The narrow T-shaped base looks like it might wobble, but then again, maybe not. The dual throttles are a nice touch and located in a very intelligent location. As I haven't touched it myself, I can't say how good or bad the application of spring-and-plate centering are in this stick.

The original Cyborg 3D was my second joystick, and I still have fond memories of it. I hope this stick is everything the original was and more, but I'm not holding my breath.



X45:

Spoiler I still have nightmares about this stick.

My wonderful girlfriend got me this as a gift. I, being a Saitek fan at the time, was quite excited. To this day I tell her that hooligans broke into my house(true) and among the things they took was this HOTAS setup(not as true). The truth is that I HATED this stick. The spring in the spring-and-plate centering was very strong, and with no effort to smooth out the transition, center accuracy was by far the worst on any stick I've ever used. It was not a twisty stick, and instead the rudder was a rocker under the throttle. If that wasn't weird enough, the rocker was fairly hard to access when the throttle was at 100%, which is... erm... almost always. The build quality for everything but the base was below par. The buttons had a stupid amount of slop - worst offender being the pinky trigger. The ergonomics for the stick were off: For example, the palmrest was so much lower than the pinky trigger that one would have to lift their hand off the palm rest to use the pinky trigger. To quote Jayne Cobb, "Where does that get fun?" And to add insult to injury, both the X and Y axis had so many spikes inside of a year that it was essentially useless.

There were some positive attributes of the stick though. The throttle performed rather well, and was quite ergonomic. I'd actually rate it as the most comfortable throttle to use, aside from being a tad on the tight side. Three modes meant a lot of potential variety for the varied buttons. And the odd 100% throttle blocking the rudder problem could be avoided by adopting a Italian-style throttle, where all the way back equaled 100%. Offloading the rudder to the throttle did reduce unintentional axis movement, and that particular application was quite fine for Mechwarrior.

It can be hard to find this stick new. Price reflect the average price of a used unit as of this writing.



X52:

Spoiler I only briefly futzed with this stick, this time a display model at a store. I was left with the impression that this was a subtly improved X45. The throttle certainly felt improved, although I question the usefulness of the MFD. The stick seemed to have even shoddier construction than the X45, but was at least more ergonomic. The real big improvement here was in the centering spring - the spring felt a lot lighter than in the X45, but still strong enough to cause significant bump-and-grind when going over center. Another big change is the inclusion of a twist Z axis instead of the under-throttle rocker. That alone endeared the X52 to many Saitek fans. Beyond that, I can't say much for this stick.



X52 Pro:

Spoiler Everything the X52 should have been to begin with. More metal construction, more intelligent design choices. Right off the bat, the X52 Pro is fitted with Hall-effect sensors. Saiteks choice of potentiometers has never been the absolute best, and the move to Hall-effect has supposedly greatly improved the lifetime of these sticks. Even better: While the spring-and-plate system is still present, the plate is now constructed of polished metal, which seems to glide over the center much easier than earlier plastic plates. The example I got my hands on felt pretty great. The construction quality definitely seems higher than the normal X52, and I would rank this HOTAS as a must-consider.

I listed the twist as BOTH a pro and a con. The reasoning is this: Some people really love their twist sticks. To them, the X52 Pro is the top of the line twist stick out there. Others expect a joystick at this price point to not be twisty. Okay, so you can lock it to not twist, but that still leads to a mushy, creaky stick. Being both a pro and a con allows you to decide which it is for your application.



X-65F:

Spoiler I have yet to sample this stick in action, but I did get my hands on it for a minute. When I first saw pictures of the X-65F, I could not help but to think that it was the coolest looking stick I had ever seen. The throttle with multifunction panels(even if you have to pay more for them) was an especially nice touch. It looked like the whole package. The one I got my hands on? Killed my anticipation. I knew it would be force-sensing, and I'll address that later. But the actual build quality was quite low. The metal creaked, the buttons had a ton of slop, and the throttle wobbled. Also, I had trouble keeping the stick and throttle in one place - they liked to slide quite a bit.

Saitek will tell you that the X-65F uses force sensing technology - just like the military uses! The reality is that the military realized the major problem facing non-moving force sensing sticks is that the pilot in the heat of battle has no point of reference as to what inputs they are giving. The F-16 and F-22 force sensing sticks move a small amount to alleviate this problem. The X-65F does not.

I can definitely see the attraction of this stick. It's inputs look smooth as silk, it's cool looking, metal, and not having to worry about the throw of a stick saves space on your desktop. I've seen some reviews complaining about wandering centers, but as I haven't used the stick myself, I can't speak to that. For the price tag, I'd think about another system first.



THRUSTMASTER

T.Flight Stick X:

Spoiler Thrustmasters low-cost joystick is definitely worth looking at, if no other reason than it being an alternative to Logitech and Saitek. It seems to use a dual-spring setup, which can be either good or bad. As stated above, I haven't ever touched one of these, but it looks ergonomic enough. The buttons look serviceable.

I've heard nothing overtly terrible about this stick. That in and of itself says a lot. Consider the amount of rage heard from Cougar users who found their joysticks to be useless after a few months thanks to a bad pot. Indeed, Thrustmaster had a 'bad pots' reputation second only to that of modern Logitech. Yet here we have a Thrustmaster stick that almost certainly uses pots, and no complaints. Draw your own conclusions from that. The only real problem I've heard of is the large center detent. I have not independently confirmed these reports, but it's still worth mentioning.

If anyone owns this stick and would like to write a review, feel free to do so! Check out the review posting workflow at the bottom of this document.



T.Flight Hotas X:

Spoiler This HOTAS is literally the previous stick with a throttle added to it. In an odd twist, the throttle has a Saitek X45-style rudder toggle under it. Don't worry, the joystick is a twisty as well.

Other than the throttle side(which is able to be removed and re-located by the way), this stick appears to be identical to the T.Flight Stick X.



T.16000M:

Spoiler This is a very, very interesting stick. Right off the bat, it has Hall sensors. What other stick in this price range comes with those? Then you see that it's a twisty. Twisty fans, this may be your other must-have stick. Why must-have? Because this thing tears it up in terms of accuracy. The hall sensors report at much higher rate of precision, and that alone makes for some interesting comparisons at $50. Of interesting note is that the stick can be reconfigured for left-handers. You wouldn't know it by looking at it, but apparently all the parts required to make the easy swap to a left-handed stick are included. Neat. I suppose that explains why they made the base symmetrical.

Note: If you really want a twisty stick and are worried about unintentional axis movement, this may be the stick for you. A great review by the guys over at hotas.gr found that the 16000M is not only very accurate in its reporting, but that it has very low UAM.



Hotas Cougar:

Spoiler Let's say you want the perfect stick, and meet three basic criteria:

1) You have loads of money.

2) You really enjoy DIY projects.

3) You have lots of time on your hands.

Well then, the Cougar is for you. Right off the bat, it's one of the very few joysticks with metal construction, and as an added bonus the throttle is metal too. Even the buttons and switches are metal. The Cougar represents the high water mark for fit, finish, and realism. The stick is removable from the base. Originally Thrustmaster intended to release replacement sticks in a variety of styles - the stock stick is based on the F-16 controller, and TM intended to release F-15 and F/A-18 controllers as well. This never came to pass, but it shows the level of thought that went into designing this HOTAS system. The Cougar system does not include a rudder, and is not a twist stick. But the base has a gameport that one can plug in gameport rudders into.

But Thrustmaster shot themselves in the foot with the Cougar. While much of the premium HOTAS was the best it could be, the potentiometers used were not. Many users suffered spiking issues in short order, and this sullied the reputation of both the Cougar and Thrustmaster. Still, it was the only option at that time for a full-metal stick and throttle, so the community got to cracking. Today, the Cougar is the most moddable stick out there. There are tons of kits one can buy to do everything from replacing the low-quality pots with high-quality Hall-effect sensors, to converting the stick to a force-sensing setup. The major issue is cost and time. The HOTAS system itself isn't cheap, even for a used example, and the mods can be quite expensive as well. I wouldn't start looking at a Cougar unless I had about $500 to $1,000 to spend on it, and plenty of time to fiddle with the mods.

Note: Not in production anymore, price is based on used prices. Used prices fluctuate wildly, especially where the Cougar is concerned.



HOTAS WARTHOG:

Spoiler Let's say you really like the idea of the Cougar, but want something that works right out of the box. Something accurate, smooth, and reliable, preferably with no modding needed. If that sounds like you, the Warthog might just be for you. The Warthog replaced the Cougar in Thrustmasters lineup, and it looks like they've done a great job with it. I haven't heard one user say they regret purchasing a Warthog, and with the buyer’s remorse the sticker brings, that says something.

The Warthog shares the metal construction that made the Cougar famous. Thrustmaster wisely listened to the Cougar modders and brought Hall-effect sensors to every single axis on the Warthog. Dual-quadrant throttles are a nice touch, although almost useless for Mechwarrior. But that's okay, since the throttles can be locked together into a single throttle. There are tons of functions available to you, and great software to match. Make no mistake, this is a top-notch controller, and probably one of the best commonly available controllers to date.

It's hard to find anything wrong with this setup. The joystick looks to be quite high, but that's fine as long as your mounting location is low enough. The base seems kind of small for the saturn ring centering the Warthog uses, and I wonder how tough that makes the center detent. These are all minor quibbles when compared to other sticks, leaving the Warthog the hands-down winner of best joystick at any price point in my mind.



CH PRODUCTS

Flightstick Pro:

Spoiler This was my first joystick. Our family got this in a package deal when buying a used computer twenty years ago. Last I heard, the stick was still functioning properly. That should tell you something about the reliability of CH sticks. This is currently probably the most basic CH stick, with a mere four buttons and eight way hat switch on top. That's probably enough to do just about all of the major tasks, but falls short of the huge amounts of functions found in more expensive sticks. The Flightstick Pro, like all other CH sticks, does not twist. Intended to be paired up with rudder pedals, this eliminates loss of accuracy through unintended axis movement. The downside of this is that some have bought this stick thinking it was a twist, and have been left disappointed.

It's hard to find a major flaw with this stick. The throttle is extremely basic, but works fine. The trim wheels are a very nice plus for flight simmers, but relatively useless for Mechwarriors. Some have trouble adjusting to the dual-drum setup, as it tends to produce 'quadrants' of travel, but for a Mechwarrior application I can't see this being an issue. The major flaw has nothing to do with the stick but rather the price point. For seven dollars, you can upgrade to the Combatstick which has far more functions, a better layout, an honest to god thumb trigger, and just plain looks cooler. But if you're hard set at this budget point and have a plan to deal with the Z axis, this can be for you.

Now you may have thought: "Thomas, what's the deal? You got a more exact with these prices than the others." Yes. I wanted to fully illustrate the difference between the Flightstick Pro and Combatstick in pricing.



Combatstick:

Spoiler Now we're cooking with propane gas. The Combatstick is basically a Flightstick Pro with a different top shell. The Combat stick has six buttons including the trigger. Then it goes ahead and adds one eight-way hat, and one four-way selector for a total of eighteen functions That's a whole lot of capability for seven bucks. Plus you get access to a thumb trigger - essential to firing your different weapon groups. No twist means you're going to need to look elsewhere for your Z-axis needs, but that's a good thing since it improves accuracy. The newer Combatsticks seem to have the larger drums sourced from the Fighterstick, whereas the older ones have the smaller drums of the Flightstick. I've never noticed any kind of difference in performance where drum size is concerned, so if you find a cheaper one with smaller drums, my advice is to go for it.

This stick is probably one of the best values around. Seventy-five bucks for CH reliability, great ergonomics, and perfect build quality is hard to beat. Sure, you're probably going to want to throw rudders in the mix as well, but a lot of Mechwarriors get by via using the keyboard for Z axis. I'd suggest pedals for the full experience, but whatever floats your boat.



Fighterstick:

Spoiler The Fighterstick is the classic CH simmers friend. This stick has been held in high regard for years, and it's easy to see why. Everything that makes the Combatstick great, plus a little more. The head is the same layout as the Combatstick, with some buttons replaced with multidirectionals. To be exact, two thumb buttons are replaced by four-way toggles, bringing the total number of functions up by six. The Fighterstick support multiple modes, and has three modes. That equals a lot of bloody functions. The Fighterstick also has a dual-drum gimbal setup that is far larger than that of the older Combatstick or Flightstick, although I can't really see any difference - both are excellent. The throttle is spaced a bit farther out, which is a nice touch.

It's even harder to find anything wrong with this stick. This is the stick that sits next to me, and I've yet to find one thing that makes me regret the purchase. I've thought for years that the Combatstick would be just as good at WW2 flight simming, and I stand by that assertion. But for 'Mech combat, I love this stick. The four-way thumb toggle allows me to fire off four separate groups of weapons. Plus the trigger means I have six weapon groups to choose from without ever touching to doing the 'select next firing group' dance.



RAZER

Artemis:

Spoiler No pros and cons for this one, as pretty much all I'm about to write is pure speculation. But before I go down that road, let's take a moment and think: This is the first setup aimed at Mechwarriors. Holy. Crap. We've arrived. Will this usher in a new age of choosing from sticks developed specifically for our needs instead of sourcing our sticks from those developed for the sim crowd? Well, let's take a look at the concept and see what shakes loose.

Now, I've heard a lot of buzz on these forums about this system. A lot of it positive, a lot of it negative. I think a lot of people have lost sight of the inherently cool fact that it was developed specifically for us, and the design decisions show.

Right off the bat, you've got this big radar screen. Now some might say "but that information is already on my screen!" And you are absolutely correct. But for those choosing a command role, a bigger radar might mean more detail. If the screen is a touchscreen, that means not having to mouse over to click on quadrants to highlight them(if such feature is in at all). For everyone else, that means a less cluttered HUD, leaving more of your screen dedicated to aiming at what is right in front of you. That's my personal view based on my personal speculation - all of that can and probably will change in time.

Secondly, we have the midget throttle that a lot of people seem to have issues with. Having used quite a few full-sized throttles, I can say that I love this idea, _if the throttle is easy to move_. 'Mech pilots, especially light 'Mech pilots, need a fast-reacting throttle that most full-sized throttles just don't provide. Full-sized throttles simply take longer to move from 100% to 0%, and that is 100% okay for flight sims, where throttle changes tend to take time anyway. Not so in a fast 'Mech. The thumb throttle should allow faster changes in speed, and I definitely look forward to it. Also note the thumb button - I'm guessing this is for quick reverse. Another sign that this setup was made specifically for us. Finally, a large throttle with buttons all over it can be hard to develop a muscle memory for, since the locations of the buttons tend to move when you move the throttle. The macro keys and thumb throttle eliminate this issue. That's my personal view based on my personal speculation - all of that can and probably will change in time.

Finally, and with a heavy heart, I come to the joystick itself. I... really hope it's not as bad as I think it may end up being. It looks to employ a spring-and-plate centering system. Now, if you've read my thoughts on the spring-and-plate centering system, you know how I feel about it. Would it really have been all that more expensive to go with a balanced Saturn ring setup? Or a four-spring a-la Cougar Mod? Force feedback is very cool, but if the center detent is as bad as it is on Saiteks, I'll be looking to switch out the stick.

Razer, if you're listening, please, please make sure the center detent is as mild as possible, or better yet, not there at all. Mechwarriors are different from flight simmers in that we spend most of our time aiming at center, rather than aiming at negative X axis. And while you guys are at it, please make sure the pots you use are good quality. Or even better, Hall sensors. Again, all speculation based on what I've seen so far, and I really, really hope I'm wrong.



RIPLEIGH

Mek-Fu HAWKEN Controller

Spoiler Again, no pros or cons here as it's all speculation based on a prototype seen in a plexiglass box. Right off the bat though, you can see the heavy similarity to the venerable Steel Battalion controllers. Lots of 'Mech fans have stated that they want to use this controller for Mechwarrior, and I hope it rocks for them. Me? I just do not get the benefit of twin sticks. First off, let's say you assign throttle to the X axis of the left stick. Now, to get to 100% throttle, you have to push it all the way forward. Okay, now... hold it there for 20 minutes? I don't get that. You could assign throttle to a key or button, but then you lose out on the use of the X axis in the off-hand stick. You could assign the off-hand axis Y to the same function as rudder pedals or twist, but every time I've used dual-joystick setups, I've left myself confused. It's just not for me. Your mileage may vary, but this very cool looking controller just isn't for me.



A WORD ON RUDDER PEDALS:

Spoiler

I'm not going to go way out of my way to decribe the standalone pedals, as there are only a handful of major choices:



1: CH Pro Pedals

2: Saitek Pedals

2: Simped Pedals

Ch Pedals are available in the US for around $100. They're reliable and reasonably smooth, but not perfect. They're somewhat close together and have a pretty severe center detent(which can be modded out).

Saitek pedals are available in the US for between $90 and $190, depending on model. The cheaper ones have a lot more plastic while the more expensive ones have nice metal pedals. Simped makes by far the best, but tend to be out of stock. Also, they can be very expensive. As they are located in Germany, shipping can be an issue. As of right now, the one Simped does have in stock costs $325 shipped.



WHAT ABOUT THROTTLES?

Spoiler

Well, there's only one standalone throttle that I know of. That is the CH Pro Throttle. It's actually a pretty interesting little potato. I prefer the ergonomics of the Saitek throttles, but you can't seem to get those on their own(for shame, Saitek!). The CH throttle slides back in forth, while most controllers have a rotating motion. For flight sims, I far prefer the rotating motion. For Mechwarrior, I prefer the slider. Don't ask me why, I don't know. There's certainly plenty of extra buttons on the CH Pro Throttle. I wish there were more options than this(Or even better, I wish CH would release some alternatives...), but for standalone throttles this is pretty much the standard. Price runs just under $100.



$30 and under:

$31-$50:

$51-$75:

$76-$100:

$101-$150:

$151-$500:

$Loads of money:

Howdy everyone, just a quick heads-up before we get started:This thread is certainly not the place for the well hashed-out joystick vs mouse+keyboard debate. This thread is intended only to educate individuals interested in joysticks, and promote healthy conversations about joysticks and HOTAS systems(hell, why not. let's throw other simulation peripherals in the mix too).Still here? Cool.Now, if you're curious as to what a joystick is, what it's advantages are, what the difference between a normal joystick and HOTAS is, or if you're interested in learning about the various features offered, click the spoiler below. Otherwise, feel free to move on.If you're not entirely sure how joystick internals work, and want to know more, feel free to click the spoiler below.Mechwarrior and other 'Mech games have always been the other hotbed for simulation fans. Until recently, those that have wanted a more immersive experience in Mechwarrior have been limited to using peripherals developed for flight sims - and that is usually quite alright. I've found that the majority of Mechwarrior fans tend to use whatever joystick catches their eye at the store. Again, usually quite alright. But there is a whole world of joysticks and HOTAS control solutions out there, all stress tested and thoroughly argued over by the flight sim community for us to choose from. Below is a list of some of the more common joysticks. This list is not intended to be complete, but if there is a joystick or peripheral that you think ought to be included, feel free to let me know.I love Logitech. I like their keyboards and I love their mice. But their joysticks and I do not get along. Not for the lack of trying, mind you. I've owned 3 Logitech joysticks, and found some positive qualities as well as negative qualities. They are all very ergonomic, and they all seem to have issues with their potentiometers. There seems to be a disturbingly high failure rate with the pots. If you get one that has no issues, hold onto it and never let it go. I don't have any experience with their warranty department as it is usually less expensive to simply buy a new stick than it is to send a Logitech stick in to get serviced.Still, some people swear by their Logitechs on account of their positive attributes, and I can totally understand that. Here's their current lineup:~$15Cheap!Smooth movement when not centered.Lefty-friendly.No twist.Questionable pots.Button slop.Lots of stick slop.Inconvenient throttle.Obtrusive center detent.Description:~$25Cheap for what you get.Amazing ergonomics.Sensible button location.Twist stick.Questionable pots.Button slop.Lots of stick slop.Obtrusive center detent.Description:~$270Competitively priced.Force FeedbackStick+Rudder+Throttle all in one package.Sum of features unmatched by other offerings.Reliable Hall sensors in the X and Y axis of stick.Questionable Logitech potentiometers in rudder and throttle.Some reported issues with force feedback centering.Not a twist stick(but it comes with a set of rudder pedals, so...)Description:Saitek has been around awhile, but they really made waves with the Cyborg 3D, released almost - what - 15 years ago? I loved the hell out of that joystick, back when USB was new. Metal where it needed to be, and incredibly customizable. There was an allen wrench built right into the thing. Pop it out, and you could move the handrest up and down, adjust the side-to-side tilt of the thumb controls... Hell, all sorts of crazy stuff. Saitek made a big impression on me and other flight simmers of the day with that product. It proved that value-priced joysticks could be pretty competitive with more expensive sticks. The major downside of the Cyborg was its spring-and-plate centering system. This resulted in a huge center detent that made center-area accuracy abysmal.The years have not been kind to Saitek. In the years following the Cyborg, quality and frequency of great design choices seemed to slowly drop. The developments of the Cyborg didn't seem to improve anything. Anyone remember the Cyborg Gold? Everything you loved about the Cyborg 3D, now with a harder-to-clean finish! Their X-series of HOTAS systems were always just short on execution. Eventually, Saitek was bought out by Mad Catz, a company with a less-than-stellar reputation in the gamepad market. Given the relatively increased complexity of joysticks and HOTAS systems, it is perhaps not surprising that quality decreased further.Despite all of this, Saitek/Mad Catz has managed to release one of the better HOTAS solutions on the market - the X52 Pro. Saitek-branded yokes, pedals, and even throttle quadrants are hitting the market to decent reviews, so there is still hope for this company and it's products.~$35Unique visual appeal.Twist stick.Dual-quadrant throttle.Throw force off-center isn't as bad as it could be.Spring-and-plate centering woes.What ergonomics?Poor build quality.Button slop.Description:~$40Very adjustable.Pretty neat looking.Very intelligent throttle location.Dual quadrant throttle.Twist stick.Spring-and-plate centering woes?Potentially some build quality issues?Potentially some button slop?Description:~$65Great throttle.Lots of buttons.Low price compared to other options.No twist.Worst application of spring-and-plate centering yet.Almost unusable rudder location.Poor build qualityPoor ergonomicsPotential issues with potentiometer spiking.Expensive for what it is.Description:~$85Great throttle.Twist stick.Good price.MFD has questionable usefulness.Center detent better than X45, but still not up to par for the price point.Poor build quality.Description:~$140Great throttle.Best application of spring-and-plate centering so far.Twist stick.Decent build qualityDecent price.Hall sensorsSpring-and-plate centering may still result in a center detent that some Mechwarriors find unacceptable.Twist stick.MFD still of questionable value.Description:~$330Very cool looking.Mounting brackets on the throttle for multifunction panels.Smooth inputs.Metal construction.Force sensing better suited for tight play areas.Poor build quality.Creaky metal.Button slop.Slide-happy.Very expensive for what you get.Description:Oh boy, Thrustmaster. The flight sim community seems to have a love/hate relationship with these folks, although in recent years they have really stepped up their products. In the early 2000s, they came out with the Cougar HOTAS. The Cougar was THE HOTAS to get. Oh sure, they had some earlier sticks, but the Cougar is what really brought it home for TM. Then the troubles started: It became apparent that the ultra-high-end Cougar was shipped with very low quality potentiometers. These had a nasty tendency to fail early, and this left a bad taste in the mouths of many simmers.Thrustmaster has been trying to improve its image and products in recent years, and by all accounts their new products are just fine. Fair warning however: I've heard horror stories about their customer service and warranty departments. For example, users of the Warthog with issues are instructed to make a video showing the problem before customer service will even deal with them. What? $500 for a stick and you have to make a video of a problem? Some might call this a palatable step in smoothing out the returns process, but I think it's an unnecessary and insulting step. Still, their recent products have been sporting very accurate Hall sensors, so they are not to be overlooked at all.One overriding caution about all of these reviews: I haven't even touched any of them save for the Cougar(which I wish I didn't touch). These reviews are going to be based on observations of their design and the word of others.~$30Cheap!Ergonomic?Loads-o-buttons.Twisty stick.Apparently has the ability to loosen or tighten the throw strength.Possibly has stick slop.Possibly has button slop.Possibly has a large center detent and stiff spring.Definitely not for lefties.Description:~$50Cheap!Ergonomic?Loads-o-buttons.Twisty stick.Apparently has the ability to loosen or tighten the throw strength.Throttle thrown in for good measure.Possibly has stick slop.Possibly has button slop.Possibly has a large center detent and stiff spring.Definitely not for lefties.Description:~$50Twist stick.Hall sensors.Easily the most accurate stick in this price bracket.Lefty-friendly.Description:~$250-200Full metal construction.Huge modding potential.Excellent construction.Very poor potentiometers.Must invest large sums of cash to produce the best possible Cougar.Must at least invest in a Hall-Effect sensor mod to make the Cougar something resembling reliable.Description~$430Full metal construction.Very accurate hall-effect sensors.Awesome build quality.More buttons than you can shake a stick at.No twist.Pricey.Does not include pedals.Potentially stiff throws.Description:CH Products has been around for a long time, and enjoys one of the best reputations in the field of flight sim controller manufacturers. Users of CH sticks have been known to boast at length about how long their joysticks have lasted. CH isn't purely a game controller company like Razer, but also makes industrial-grade controllers for a wide variety of tough applications. It certainly seems like much of that experience is applied to their flight sim lines, as evidenced by their excellent build quality and reliability.That isn't to say that CH is without its faults. Their standard warranty is a decent two-year limited. Limited in that if you run over it with a truck, it's probably not covered. But this also includes opening the device up. Don't worry, you'll know the exact moment you do that as screws essential to disassembly are covered with "warranty void if broken" stickers. This is standard practice, but it still bothers me since internal cleaning should be a fundamental part of joystick maintenance. Also, the warranty does not extent to second owners, so beware. If you purchase a CH stick used, you're on your own. Finally, some might describe the CH lineup as a bit stale. Excellent sticks, yes, but we still haven't seen a move over to the extremely accurate and maintenance-free Hall sensors. The potentiometers are of the highest quality, so this is negated to some degree. On another note, we still haven't seen an all-metal HOTAS solution from CH.Should any of this stop you from buying CH? I would say no. Personal opinion warning: CH controllers are the best I've used yet. Their dual-drum gimbal system produces very light throws and accurate travel. The buttons on every CH stick I've ever handled had next to no slop. And for the price point, it's hard to do better.~$67Accurate.Light throws.Amazing build quality.Reliable.No twist.Dual-drum setup tends to produce travel 'quadrants'.For $7 more you can get the Combatstick.Need to purchase pedals to get the full experience.Description:~$74Accurate.Light throws.Great number of functions.Amazing build quality.Reliable.No twist.Dual-drum setup tends to produce travel 'quadrants'.Need to purchase pedals to get the full experience.Description:~$95Accurate.Light throws.Great number of functions.Amazing build quality.Reliable.No twist.Dual-drum setup tends to produce travel 'quadrants'.Need to purchase pedals to get the full experience.Description:Razer has been around for a few years now making devices aimed specifically at gamers. Some question their sophomoric marketing with wizz-bang visuals, but I've had good results from using their equipment. I rather like their hard mouse pads, and enjoy their mice. I'd like their mice a lot more if they had a freewheel scroll like my Logitech G9, but there you go. Now, I never heard so much as a peep that they would be developing any sort of joystick in the future, nor did I have any reason to suspect that they would. Many of their products are rightfully aimed at the FPS crowd. That was all shattered with the Artemis announcement. No matter what you may think of Razer, they should be credited with developing the first commercial peripheral aimed directly at satisfying Mechwarriors.~$???? (unknown as of this writing)Description:This is a neat start-up company out of China. I know next to nothing about them except that they're developing the HAWKEN controller. That shows a good amount of thinking outside of the box, and I applaud them for it.~$???? (unknown as of this writing)Description:(should I put the pedals and throttles up there with the joysticks?)With all of that out of the way, you might be looking at your budget and wondering what you can manage. Well, here are my selections for best sticks at given price points:Nothing really good here. You’re basically limited to the Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick X and the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. The Thrustmaster is probably more reliable, but the Logitech has excellent ergonomics and somehow probably has better center performance. Reliability alone makes this a choice of compromise, so it goes to the…Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick XMany more options. Really though, only one has hall sensors and is known for being an accurate stick.Thrustmaster T.16000MEasy choice here. I’ll handle my ‘Mech turning with a keyboard before I deal with poor applications of spring-and-plate centering. Factor in reliability and excellent software…CH Products CombatstickSame justifications as above.CH Products FighterstickLots of options here, but only one real contender. As much as I hate spring-and-plate, this HOTAS dominates this price bracket thanks to its rare high quality application of spring-and-plate.Saitek X52 ProOne brand cleans up this whole price bracket. Sure, other systems might have more features here and there, but none match the reliability and accuracy.CH Products Fighterstick(With pedals and throttle added as price point increases).CH had a good run, but Thrustmaster brutally beats them down in the high-end market.Thrustmaster Warthog with Simped F-16 pedals.Once this thread has settled, I’ll see if there are any more sticks I need to add to consideration. Once that has happened, I might just open up a poll to see what YOUR choices are at each price point. I’m thinking winning sticks will get “Readers Choice” tags.So there you have it: My reviews. If you'd like to see your point of view reflected here, post a reply with your review(and maybe PM me to let me know). If I receive enough reviews on a given product, I'll take those into account and write something up. This goes for both products that already are on the list, and anything you think SHOULD be on the list.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 11 June 2012 - 06:59 PM.