Pro Opinions: Changes to the Swarmhost and Raven Text by ZeromuS Graphics by Meru, SHIROIUSAGI TL Strategy Presents Pro Player Opinions: Latest Changes to Swarm hosts and Ravens



Pro opinions: Proposed Changes (January 20 2015)

It’s been a while since a proposed balance change, and while this list includes only two new changes, they are massive. As always, TL Strategy has reached out to pro gamers and asked their opinions on the new changes. This round of changes include the redesigned swarm host idea from LotV, and a revamped PDD timing which are as follows:





All Swarm Host changes from Void carried over to HotS.



Spawn Locust can now be used while unburrowed, but must be manually activated.

Locusts have been buffed and can be upgraded at Tier 3 to fly over terrain. They must then swoop down to the ground to engage.

New swarm host + Show Spoiler + Swarm Host



100/200/40

4 Supply

No longer start with Burrow

Enduring Locusts upgrade is no longer available.

Evolve Flying Locust upgrade has been added.



Spawn Locust

Cooldown 60 seconds

Can be cast while burrowed or unburrowed.

Must be manually cast. No longer has auto-cast.

Spawns 2 Locusts. Locusts have a 30 second timed life.



Locust

12 damage

0.6 weapon speed

30 second duration



Evolve Flying Locust

Requires Lair

200/200/160

Allows Locusts spawned by Swarm Hosts to fly. Flying Locusts can use Swoop to land and attack.

Swoop: Orders the Locust to land at the targeted location, allowing it to attack.





New swarm host Spoiler Raven Point Defense Drones duration decreasing to 20 seconds















How do you think this affects late game Zerg play vs Protoss or Terran?





CMStorm_Polt: It seems good that Swarm Hosts will gain more utility, but their new price seems somewhat expensive... it's something I'd have to play against in a real game to know.





Axiom_Alicia: I don't think they are bad changes. I'm not entirely sure about the specific numbers/stats on the new Swarm Host will end up playing out, so I can't really say how games will change. Since colossi will be unable to hit flying locusts, I'm wondering how Protoss is going to deal with them.





mY_ijjakji: Just going off this change, I can't say that it's good or bad that Blizzard is willing to make such big changes. But given that PvZ had a lot of games that dragged out very long, I think it's good that Blizzard recognized there was a problem and wanted to test changes to fix it. Long Swarm Host games in ZvP are boring for both the players and the spectators, so it's a good test.





Axiom_Impact: I think it will be about the same. It's not like locusts can attack while flying, so even in the late game I don't think much will change.





Axiom_Crank: It's true that Zerg will have more things to micro since locust spawning won't be automatic anymore. However, due to the improved mobility of swarm hosts/locusts, I don't think we'll reach the end game scenarios where Protoss plays mass air.





Liquid_TLO: Well, hard to tell right now. The flying locusts will make Collosus less effective at picking them off before they deal damage.

You will also be able to spread the more easily as the Locusts won't clump up because of terrain, so you can magic box them to reduce the damage of storm. On top of that it'll be harder to get to that stage as Protoss. So I think it'll be fine.





Liquid_Bunny: Since i'm not playing this match up myself it's hard to tell, but all my zerg teammates seems to be of the opinion that swarm hosts are the only viable option late game. The good news is that with the new swarm host, zerg might be able to trade better in the mid game or do harassment much better. In TvP terran also has a big disadvantage late game, but the match up is still balanced simply due to the amount of pressure terran can put up in the mid game. So perhaps it's possible for ZvP to function in the same manner, though i do feel it's more fun if both races has a shot at an end game goal, as long as the games aren't drawn out.





EG_HuK: Skytoss has always been a response to SH not the other way around. Even when Zerg goes mass spore/corruptor/viper it is still very good vs sky toss, zerg can and do win on a regular basis vs it. So argument doesn't really make sense to me.





mYi_Kane: I think protoss will probably gain the edge in the late game, but i don't think it'll be so easy for them to get there; at least hopefully not. zerg to me has always been a "kill them in the midgame" kind of race anyways, and the way swarmhosts were being used didn't feel zerg-like to me in the first place.





coL_Moosegills: The skytoss/ht composition is not actually a problem for zergs currently because of the Protoss doesn't maintain colossus is their composition the zerg will always be able to kill the high Templar through fungal + locust, and then the air army will just die to vipers. Due to the locust frequency changes, it is unlikely that zerg will be able to deal with the ht/skytoss composition in lategame, however there will be more harassment options to stop Protoss from getting to that late game and it should even things out.



It seems good that Swarm Hosts will gain more utility, but their new price seems somewhat expensive... it's something I'd have to play against in a real game to know.I don't think they are bad changes. I'm not entirely sure about the specific numbers/stats on the new Swarm Host will end up playing out, so I can't really say how games will change. Since colossi will be unable to hit flying locusts, I'm wondering how Protoss is going to deal with them.Just going off this change, I can't say that it's good or bad that Blizzard is willing to make such big changes. But given that PvZ had a lot of games that dragged out very long, I think it's good that Blizzard recognized there was a problem and wanted to test changes to fix it. Long Swarm Host games in ZvP are boring for both the players and the spectators, so it's a good test.I think it will be about the same. It's not like locusts can attack while flying, so even in the late game I don't think much will change.It's true that Zerg will have more things to micro since locust spawning won't be automatic anymore. However, due to the improved mobility of swarm hosts/locusts, I don't think we'll reach the end game scenarios where Protoss plays mass air.Well, hard to tell right now. The flying locusts will make Collosus less effective at picking them off before they deal damage.You will also be able to spread the more easily as the Locusts won't clump up because of terrain, so you can magic box them to reduce the damage of storm. On top of that it'll be harder to get to that stage as Protoss. So I think it'll be fine.Since i'm not playing this match up myself it's hard to tell, but all my zerg teammates seems to be of the opinion that swarm hosts are the only viable option late game. The good news is that with the new swarm host, zerg might be able to trade better in the mid game or do harassment much better. In TvP terran also has a big disadvantage late game, but the match up is still balanced simply due to the amount of pressure terran can put up in the mid game. So perhaps it's possible for ZvP to function in the same manner, though i do feel it's more fun if both races has a shot at an end game goal, as long as the games aren't drawn out.Skytoss has always been a response to SH not the other way around. Even when Zerg goes mass spore/corruptor/viper it is still very good vs sky toss, zerg can and do win on a regular basis vs it. So argument doesn't really make sense to me.I think protoss will probably gain the edge in the late game, but i don't think it'll be so easy for them to get there; at least hopefully not. zerg to me has always been a "kill them in the midgame" kind of race anyways, and the way swarmhosts were being used didn't feel zerg-like to me in the first place.The skytoss/ht composition is not actually a problem for zergs currently because of the Protoss doesn't maintain colossus is their composition the zerg will always be able to kill the high Templar through fungal + locust, and then the air army will just die to vipers. Due to the locust frequency changes, it is unlikely that zerg will be able to deal with the ht/skytoss composition in lategame, however there will be more harassment options to stop Protoss from getting to that late game and it should even things out.

Do you think that the new Swarmhosts will be used to split maps as they are now, or harass with flying locusts?





Axiom_Alicia: The manual spawning of locusts seems to be trying to force multi-tasking on Zerg. However, the ability to spawn locusts without burrowing also means it makes it easier for Zerg to hit and run, so I don't think it makes microing Swarm Hosts that much harder. On top of that the locusts are stronger, which will make it tough for Protoss to face them.





Axiom_Impact: I don't think things will change that much.





Axiom_Crank: Because of the price and supply change, as well as the locust timer going up, it seems like they'll be easier to handle than current Swarm Hosts.





Liquid_TLO: Games will become ridiculously aggressive I think, zvp will hopefully look much more like zvt after this change.

There should be fights all over the map with small task forces, trying to pull the enemy out position to kill a base or blink on top of exposed Swarmhostrs.





Liquid_Bunny: If the spawn timer is doubled then it shouldn't be possible to rely on a big swarm host count, since you can kill the first wave and then zergs army value will simply be too low to defend. They should be better as harasment units, or just aggro units for timings. I think they will be especially powerful on maps with pocket naturals like nimbus, or just maps with favorable air space design in general.





EG_HuK: I'm not sure about this TBH. The biggest thing is that they will become more micro intensive. That's the biggest difference for me, instead of them just being very easy to use they will actually take skill/time/clicks now which will take away from other aspects of zerg play and open the game up.





mYi_Kane: i think with the new delayed spawning time of the locusts you won't be able to mass swarmhosts like you could before they won't be able to split the map like they did before, like i said the spawning time will have a huge effect on that, and they'll probably be used in a fewer number for a more mobile harass kind of unit.





coL_Moosegills: Since the new cooldown for spawning locusts is 60 seconds and the locusts are only alive for 30 seconds it is unlikely they will still be used in split map styles. Combined with the fact that the flying locust upgrade is available at lair I expect swarmhosts to turn into primarily harassment units



The manual spawning of locusts seems to be trying to force multi-tasking on Zerg. However, the ability to spawn locusts without burrowing also means it makes it easier for Zerg to hit and run, so I don't think it makes microing Swarm Hosts that much harder. On top of that the locusts are stronger, which will make it tough for Protoss to face them.I don't think things will change that much.Because of the price and supply change, as well as the locust timer going up, it seems like they'll be easier to handle than current Swarm Hosts.Games will become ridiculously aggressive I think, zvp will hopefully look much more like zvt after this change.There should be fights all over the map with small task forces, trying to pull the enemy out position to kill a base or blink on top of exposed Swarmhostrs.If the spawn timer is doubled then it shouldn't be possible to rely on a big swarm host count, since you can kill the first wave and then zergs army value will simply be too low to defend. They should be better as harasment units, or just aggro units for timings. I think they will be especially powerful on maps with pocket naturals like nimbus, or just maps with favorable air space design in general.I'm not sure about this TBH. The biggest thing is that they will become more micro intensive. That's the biggest difference for me, instead of them just being very easy to use they will actually take skill/time/clicks now which will take away from other aspects of zerg play and open the game up.i think with the new delayed spawning time of the locusts you won't be able to mass swarmhosts like you could before they won't be able to split the map like they did before, like i said the spawning time will have a huge effect on that, and they'll probably be used in a fewer number for a more mobile harass kind of unit.Since the new cooldown for spawning locusts is 60 seconds and the locusts are only alive for 30 seconds it is unlikely they will still be used in split map styles. Combined with the fact that the flying locust upgrade is available at lair I expect swarmhosts to turn into primarily harassment units

Do you think the PDD change is too much?



CMStorm_Polt: I think reducing the PDD time to 20 seconds is a bit too much, I think it should be around 45 seconds to one minute at least.





Axiom_Heart: I though the duration of PDD's was a bit long before, but reducing it to 20 seconds is too short.





mYi_jjakji:I don't think it's reasonable to nerf the PDD without giving Ravens a buff in return. It's not the PDD that causes the late-game stalemates in TvZ – it's Swarm Hosts. Once Zerg is in place with lines of crawlers and Swarm Hosts, Terran needs the PDD's to even get up to 50/50 in that situation.





Axiom_Ryung: PDD's usually got destroyed before their timers ran out, so I don't think a nerf is neccesary.



Liquid_TLO: I personally never had any issues with playing against mech, so I'm just taking this as a gift that'll make my life much easier vs Terran.





Liquid_Bunny: I'm not even sure on why this PDD nerf is coming, i'm all for nerfing turtle play so i don't mind though. The thing is that flying locust should make turtle mech unplayable, even with PDD, flying locusts swoop down and your tanks kill eachother just from the splash. You can also raid the terrans main and he will not be able to block it, unless there's some way to kill the locust will they are in the air.





EG_HuK: This is a question generally only important in TvZ mech it seems. I mean it's a pretty big nerf, but Mech is already more and more viable these days. Will be hard to say when the meta completely changes because of the SH changes; we sha'll see.





mYi_Kane: PDD change is great!!





coL_Moosegills: Point defense drone is the defensive stepping stone that allows Terran to defend long enough to get mass raven in the late late game. With the PDD nerf the ability for Terran to mass Ravens will be greatly hindered.



I think reducing the PDD time to 20 seconds is a bit too much, I think it should be around 45 seconds to one minute at least.I though the duration of PDD's was a bit long before, but reducing it to 20 seconds is too short.I don't think it's reasonable to nerf the PDD without giving Ravens a buff in return. It's not the PDD that causes the late-game stalemates in TvZ – it's Swarm Hosts. Once Zerg is in place with lines of crawlers and Swarm Hosts, Terran needs the PDD's to even get up to 50/50 in that situation.PDD's usually got destroyed before their timers ran out, so I don't think a nerf is neccesary.I personally never had any issues with playing against mech, so I'm just taking this as a gift that'll make my life much easier vs Terran.I'm not even sure on why this PDD nerf is coming, i'm all for nerfing turtle play so i don't mind though. The thing is that flying locust should make turtle mech unplayable, even with PDD, flying locusts swoop down and your tanks kill eachother just from the splash. You can also raid the terrans main and he will not be able to block it, unless there's some way to kill the locust will they are in the air.This is a question generally only important in TvZ mech it seems. I mean it's a pretty big nerf, but Mech is already more and more viable these days. Will be hard to say when the meta completely changes because of the SH changes; we sha'll see.PDD change is great!!Point defense drone is the defensive stepping stone that allows Terran to defend long enough to get mass raven in the late late game. With the PDD nerf the ability for Terran to mass Ravens will be greatly hindered.

Do you want to see these changes go soon or after a long period of testing?



CMStorm_Polt: I think the attempt itself is good, and we need continuous change going forward. Right now besides ZvP, all of the match-ups tend to play out in the same way, and it's something that's criticized by the fans. I hope they can look into this.





Axiom_Heart: I can't understand putting through such a big patch toward the end of HotS, but it will definitely make an impact on how games are played once Swarm Hosts come out.





mYi_jjakji: I think the Swarm Host changes are worth testing. However, it's likely to drastically change how the game plays out, so it should only be patched in after extensive testing.





Axiom_Ryung: I've never really given patches that much thought up till now, but I think this swarm host patch might not be a good idea. Players put in a lot of practice to form the builds and strategies with which the game is played, and this is the first time it feels like a single patch could change everything drastically.





Axiom_Impact: I'm a bit taken aback because it's such an extreme change. There's nothing I'd specifically like Blizzard to look at.





Axiom_Crank: First off, please do something about maphacking. From our point of view, we can't understand how there's no response at all, no matter how many reports we send or how many messages we send through social media. Even if something is done, it happens very late.





Liquid_TLO: Oh I'd love it if it just comes out right away, I think it would make the game much more interesting than it is right now. We haven't had any changes for a while and everyone has disliked the swarmhost ever since it came out, this update will bring some fresh which is very needed until LOTV comes out.





Liquid_Bunny: Honestly i would like to see it implemented as soon as possible, i'm really happy that blizzard is willing to go through with big changes like these pre-lotv. To me the last balance patch feels like it happened forever ago, in general i actually like as many patches as possible since it keeps the game fresh.





EG_HuK: Widow mines should of been pushed through IMO. They are still ridiculously strong and almost always cost efficient no matter what use; sometimes can totally win a game. I would rather see the changes come out sooner rather than later.





mYi_Kane: i want the changes to come out asap, i think turtle mech and turtle SH is really dumb and should be changed immediately to make the viewer AND player experience more enjoyable, even if it is kind of midseason. the widow change probably is a bigger deal in pvt, but in zvt i've found it pretty balanced recently





coL_Moosegills: I would like the see these changes come out as soon as possible, keeping in mind the affect of ongoing tournaments. With pro league going on nearly constantly the best you could ask for regarding a patch release date is worked around the wcs/gsl playing schedule



I think the attempt itself is good, and we need continuous change going forward. Right now besides ZvP, all of the match-ups tend to play out in the same way, and it's something that's criticized by the fans. I hope they can look into this.I can't understand putting through such a big patch toward the end of HotS, but it will definitely make an impact on how games are played once Swarm Hosts come out.I think the Swarm Host changes are worth testing. However, it's likely to drastically change how the game plays out, so it should only be patched in after extensive testing.I've never really given patches that much thought up till now, but I think this swarm host patch might not be a good idea. Players put in a lot of practice to form the builds and strategies with which the game is played, and this is the first time it feels like a single patch could change everything drastically.I'm a bit taken aback because it's such an extreme change. There's nothing I'd specifically like Blizzard to look at.First off, please do something about maphacking. From our point of view, we can't understand how there's no response at all, no matter how many reports we send or how many messages we send through social media. Even if something is done, it happens very late.Oh I'd love it if it just comes out right away, I think it would make the game much more interesting than it is right now. We haven't had any changes for a while and everyone has disliked the swarmhost ever since it came out, this update will bring some fresh which is very needed until LOTV comes out.Honestly i would like to see it implemented as soon as possible, i'm really happy that blizzard is willing to go through with big changes like these pre-lotv. To me the last balance patch feels like it happened forever ago, in general i actually like as many patches as possible since it keeps the game fresh.Widow mines should of been pushed through IMO. They are still ridiculously strong and almost always cost efficient no matter what use; sometimes can totally win a game. I would rather see the changes come out sooner rather than later.i want the changes to come out asap, i think turtle mech and turtle SH is really dumb and should be changed immediately to make the viewer AND player experience more enjoyable, even if it is kind of midseason. the widow change probably is a bigger deal in pvt, but in zvt i've found it pretty balanced recentlyI would like the see these changes come out as soon as possible, keeping in mind the affect of ongoing tournaments. With pro league going on nearly constantly the best you could ask for regarding a patch release date is worked around the wcs/gsl playing schedule

With zerg being more harassment focused with this change, do you foresee any cool playstyles that could come out of this?



Liquid_TLO: I'm already using aggressive Swarmhosts, now it'll be easier cause you can actually move them off creep without risking as much. It should lead to a much more flexible mid to late game. Swarmhost timings to break 3rds will become a really big threat, especially with the hive follow up to hit anywhere you want. I think it'll feel similiar to playing bio vs Protoss. You'll hit really hard in 2 different spots with your first swarmhost timing. Then once your flying locusts finish any base is fair game. Protoss will have to be super good at retaining their unit count. Else they won't be able to keep up I believe.





Liquid_Bunny: I haven't seen nor played any games on the balance test map, so my opinions are purely from theorizing. I'm still not really a fan of the swarm host, even in it's changed state. However you might be able to pull off some serious map abuse with the new flying locust, i'm looking forward to seeing how that develops. I hope we won't have to restrict map design even further, between blink all ins, force fields and flying locust map makers should have their hands full.





EG_HuK: I think zerg will rely more on roaches again in all matchups. Lately we've been seeing more early game aggresive zergs and it has been working for them at the highest level. Really depends obviously all races will adapt to new trends so I'm not sure where the accepted meta will end up.





mYi_Kane: It seems to me that some cool stuff like a muta/ling with a few swarmhosts in zvp just to go harass mineral lines on stuff could be really really cool. i'm really looking forward to some cool new innovative playstyles,





coL_Moosegills: I haven't played or watched too many lotv mod games. Drawing inspiration from the impact vs crank highlight clip I expect zergs will often get a handful of swarmhosts for harassment while doing tech switches between ground compositions and mutalisks as a standard way to play ZvP.



I'm already using aggressive Swarmhosts, now it'll be easier cause you can actually move them off creep without risking as much. It should lead to a much more flexible mid to late game. Swarmhost timings to break 3rds will become a really big threat, especially with the hive follow up to hit anywhere you want. I think it'll feel similiar to playing bio vs Protoss. You'll hit really hard in 2 different spots with your first swarmhost timing. Then once your flying locusts finish any base is fair game. Protoss will have to be super good at retaining their unit count. Else they won't be able to keep up I believe.I haven't seen nor played any games on the balance test map, so my opinions are purely from theorizing. I'm still not really a fan of the swarm host, even in it's changed state. However you might be able to pull off some serious map abuse with the new flying locust, i'm looking forward to seeing how that develops. I hope we won't have to restrict map design even further, between blink all ins, force fields and flying locust map makers should have their hands full.I think zerg will rely more on roaches again in all matchups. Lately we've been seeing more early game aggresive zergs and it has been working for them at the highest level. Really depends obviously all races will adapt to new trends so I'm not sure where the accepted meta will end up.It seems to me that some cool stuff like a muta/ling with a few swarmhosts in zvp just to go harass mineral lines on stuff could be really really cool. i'm really looking forward to some cool new innovative playstyles,I haven't played or watched too many lotv mod games. Drawing inspiration from the impact vs crank highlight clip I expect zergs will often get a handful of swarmhosts for harassment while doing tech switches between ground compositions and mutalisks as a standard way to play ZvP.

Have you played any of the balance test maps previously?



CMStorm_Polt: I don't play them unless I have a very specific reason to. I'm already busy enough practicing.





Axiom_Heart: I've only played them in some event matches on our team.





Axiom_Alicia: I don't play the balance test maps. There's no advantage to being a tester. It's tough to find a practice partner who wants to play them, and it's just a waste of time for someone who's competing in a tournament.





mYi_jjakji: If Blizzard wants more active participation, I think they'd have to give something to the players who actively help out in testing the map. That, or they might be better off going directly to specific teams or players for help. If they put out a test map and blindly ask people to try it out, I don't think players are going to cut into their practice time to play it. When you're a player who has a tournament to play, you honestly don't feel that there's any real need to play a test map.





Axiom_Ryung: In a situation where you don't know whether the changes will even be applied or not, there's really no reason to play it. It's fine to just try it out through ladder after the patch goes through.





Axiom_Impact: I don't play it much – I'm busy enough playing HotS.





Axiom_Crank: I don't play games on the test map. Yes, pros need to play the test maps and give Blizzard feedback for good balance matches to come out. However, progamers have a lot of tournaments to worry about, and it's not like you can figure out a balance test map with just a handful of games. It's something that takes a few months of observation, so most people end up not even trying. In this regard, it would be great if we could find a really innovative way of testing. In the present system, it just isn't realistic to expect progamers to participate voluntarily.



I don't play them unless I have a very specific reason to. I'm already busy enough practicing.I've only played them in some event matches on our team.I don't play the balance test maps. There's no advantage to being a tester. It's tough to find a practice partner who wants to play them, and it's just a waste of time for someone who's competing in a tournament.If Blizzard wants more active participation, I think they'd have to give something to the players who actively help out in testing the map. That, or they might be better off going directly to specific teams or players for help. If they put out a test map and blindly ask people to try it out, I don't think players are going to cut into their practice time to play it. When you're a player who has a tournament to play, you honestly don't feel that there's any real need to play a test map.In a situation where you don't know whether the changes will even be applied or not, there's really no reason to play it. It's fine to just try it out through ladder after the patch goes through.I don't play it much – I'm busy enough playing HotS.I don't play games on the test map. Yes, pros need to play the test maps and give Blizzard feedback for good balance matches to come out. However, progamers have a lot of tournaments to worry about, and it's not like you can figure out a balance test map with just a handful of games. It's something that takes a few months of observation, so most people end up not even trying. In this regard, it would be great if we could find a really innovative way of testing. In the present system, it just isn't realistic to expect progamers to participate voluntarily.



It’s been a while since a proposed balance change, and while this list includes only two new changes, they are massive. As always, TL Strategy has reached out to pro gamers and asked their opinions on the new changes. This round of changes include the redesigned swarm host idea from LotV, and a revamped PDD timing which are as follows:

Strategy Overwatch is awesome | Support is the best role | @TL_ZeromuS | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_