Beck: Are you comfortable with that expanding definition? Language evolves, right? Do you think that’s a fine way for people to be using this term, or do you have concerns about it?

Hochschild: It makes the thinking a little blurrier. On the whole, I love the idea that people are exploring the realm, and so I welcome that, but I guess I don’t like the blurriness of the thinking.

One thing that I read said even the work of calling the maid to clean the bathtub is too much. It’s burdensome. I felt there is really, in this work, no social-class perspective. There are many more maids than there are people who find it burdensome to pick up the telephone to ask them to clean your tub.

Beck: Could we just do a quick lightning round of: Are these things emotional labor, yes or no?

Hochschild: Sure.

Beck: Is it emotional labor to remember all the chores that need to get done and remind people to do them?

Hochschild: Not in itself. I think that’s mental labor. If there’s some management of anxiety about forgetting something, that’s the emotional-labor part of it.

Beck: Is it emotional labor to ask your husband to do the chores in a nice way so it doesn’t hurt his feelings?

Hochschild: Depends on how she feels to begin with. It could be effortless: “Hey, sweetheart, can you handle Thursday?” “Sure, it’s on my list.” That’s not emotional labor.

Beck: I think this gets to perhaps a main confusion that is happening. I often see emotional labor referred to as the management of other people’s emotions, or doing things so that other people stay happy and stay comfortable. Is that emotional labor or no?

Hochschild: There’s a distinction to be made about the purpose of a task. Suppose the purpose of the task was to make your mother-in-law happy, and you’re paying a visit. You get in the cab, you ring the doorbell—that’s not emotional labor. But if your mother-in-law is extremely disapproving of you, and in the first five minutes you become aware of that again, and you’re having to defend your self-esteem against the perceived insult, that’s emotional labor.

Beck: Is it emotional labor to be the one at work who is expected to plan the after-work happy hours and social gatherings for the office?

Hochschild: That is mental work. Important mental work, and it can crowd out attention to other kinds of work. But it’s only emotional work if it’s disturbing for you.

Beck: Is it emotional labor when you try to say your ideas in a meeting in a nonthreatening way?

Hochschild: Not unless it is experienced as anxiety-provoking or fear-evoking to you.

Beck: I’m going to dig into this one just slightly more. This is something that people talk about a lot. There’s a sort of internalized expectation for women in the workplace that they not be too assertive, not too threatening to men, or just play nicely with others. Is that internalized expectation, and the forming of yourself to fit that expectation, emotional labor?