Plexa Profile Blog Joined October 2005 Aotearoa 38208 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-11 14:50:27 #1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI



There is a fair number of "Will it X" type shows around these days, but really nothing for SC2 at the moment. We all know that the game is young and that anything could be viable (as seen by AugustWerra's BC rush against Iron) so the question naturally arises - what strategies work, and what strategies do not work.



The idea is simple, pick a counter intuitive strategy, get 5 games of it in action and determine whether or not the build, strategy, unit composition - whatever - is viable in a competitive setting.



My credentials? I'm a Protoss player. I've watched over 600 replays since the start of retail (no joke). I'm adorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.





Is Sentry/Zeal/Immortal Viable?

The inspiration for this came from the Korean Server, namely a game between Zero and Mio. Zero opens up with a very similar build to what Mana is playing in PvT at the moment - gate/robo/gate/gate/expo. I happened to have practiced this build quite a bit with Naruto and Infinity recently. However, his approach to the build is entirely different than mine or Mana's - he makes zealots and sentries early on and quickly adds an immortal. Mio pushes out with marine/marauder/stim to try and shut down the quick expand - but forcefields prevent him from killing the nexus or doing any damage what so ever - as depicted above.



Zero went on to transition into Stalker/Sentry/Colossus (how Korean of him) but it raised my curiosity. Just exactly how viable is Zealot/Sentry/Immortal as a unit composition? Infinity kindly agreed to play some games against me to test this.



Before we go on, you can grab the Zero/Mio replay



The Build



I more or less followed this:

13 Gate

14 Gas

15 Pylon

17 Core

19 Zeal

Gas

Sentry

Warp Gate

Pylon

Robo

Zealot

Gate

Gate



With the idea to take my expansion around 40 supply after working out what the Terran is doing either by scouting with probe/zeal or an observer which I build from the robo once it's done (unless there is pressure). You can see the exact build in the replays that follow.



The Terran Build



Infinity used very greedy 1rax FE build. I think this is a very powerful Terran build and while it means that this build isn't tested against all unit compositions, it should give a fairly good indication about how valid it is against typical terran unit compositions. Extending this build/unit composition to other openings shouldn't be too difficult since the base build is Mana's quick expansion build - which is completely valid against every Terran opening I've encountered so far (except possibly the 3-1-2 build - still need to work on that!).



Game 1 - Replay



Being the very first game with this new strategy, there were a lot of things I did wrong this game. Nevertheless, I could already see the potential in this unit combo. After fending off infinity's initial 2mara1rine push, I was able to take my expo and pressure him with a decent army.





PRESSURE

While I feel that I overproduced sentries, and probably could have controlled a bit better, the push was quite successful:





Not bad!

The rest of the game I keep pressuring Infinity with immortal/sentry/zeal to great effect - while teching to Colossus. Infinity expands first, but I am able to snipe his CC (but losing my army in the process). I tried to expand at this time as well, but infinity just has too much stuff and rolls me with ease.



The moral of this game is: Colossus are not the best thing to transition into. Without stalkers, you can't fend off Vikings (I'm just lucky infinity didn't make any). Further, they're vulnerable and the way you want to FF to maximise the efficiency of your Colossus renders your Zealots useless. Getting twilight tech and Templar tech up appeared to be the far better option. The game shows that the composition has potential, but needed more refinement.



Game 2 - Game 2



We spawn cross positions on Metal - and I can't get any pressure off on infinity's FE. Basically, he's ahead. I expand after getting an Immortal - which is stupid since I should have taken it before then Immortal - then proceed to rush charge. My mindset going into this was - charge kills maras, so I'll get one immortal to fend off pushes and we'll see how it goes.



Well the push came.





And then the push annihilated my forces





Not much to say. I got massively out played and bleh.



This game taught me that rushing charge isn't going to be beneficial. Relying on one Immortal to do things also doesn't work, so in subsequent games I would have to be producing Immortals a lot more frequently.



Game 3 - Replay



Game opens as usual, but infinity puts on a little more pressure with mara/marine. Unfortunately for him, the moment I get my Immortal out, three perfect forcefields land and trap them. This gives me a bit of a timing window to pressure his expansion where I am able to kill off a good number of SCVs.





Trapped

Anyway, the game progresses a bit and infinity prepared to push out and pressure my expansion. By this time he has a good economy and a good number of rax (5 I believe). But the masses of Mara/Rine come rolling in and get crushed with some nice forcefields:





Who's going to win?





Damn straight!

Again, this gives me a chance to pressure. Which I do! By now I've got storm just about finished and Infinity has mixed in Medivacs. With the aid of storm, it isn't long before infinity is force to concede. (I make it sound so one sided, it really wasnt!)



This game felt a LOT better than the previous two. Getting multiple immortal and stalling charge/storm for units felt natural and good. The transition into storm felt a lot more natural than how Protoss rush for it at the moment. It was an easy and natural progression - and it felt goooood. By this stage, I'm starting to think that this is really going to work.



Game 4 - Replay



Infinity throws in a reaper this game, and it gives me a bit of grief. Nothing too serious though. So this game, since we're close positions, I decide to try and pressure with my initial immortal squadron in hope to delay infinity's expansion. I'm able to find a sweet spot where he hasn't bunkered and get a kill or two





But in doing so, Infinity is able to chase down my units and kill off half of them leaving my army particularly weak. Now I'm quite worried, since I'm desperately warping in units while he's massing up for a killing blow. He moves in, forcefields go down and then...





What?

Hi army gets straight up destroyed. I don't think either of us could really believe it. I take the initiative, push into his natural and do a bit of damage. I eventually lose all my units, but hey! they did their job.



Now I (stupidly) decide that expanding while getting storm is a good idea. So I try to take the far gold expansion while pumping out units so I don't immediately die to a counter attack. This delays storm a bit, so when infinity comes knocking at my door ...





No Storm

He completely destroys me. You just cannot fight medivacs without storm or Colossus - you will just die. The rest of the game is really just a formality from here, he kills my natural, kills my gold expansion and then drops my main. gg.



While I lost, the strength of this combination really shone through. The importance of getting storm in a timely manner to survive once medivacs come into play is emphasized in this game. With better decision making, this game could have easily been mine.



Game 5 - Replay



Game opens very similar to the previous one - infinity with reaper pressure (which is more successful) and I try to pressure him with my initial set of units. However, this game he's bunkered off the back side of the minerals so I can't get into the same sweet spot as the previous game. Oh well. The game ends up being quite passive - with infinity going for quick medivacs and me go going for quick storm to counter. And well when he moved out:





It counters

Storm does it's job and scared infinity away. After a while longer, I expand to my third and move out. Thanks to some pretty nice FFs we get this amazing shot:





Infinity clings on to dear life, and I retreat to bolster my forces. Infinity then switches up to Banshee - a switch I completely miss. Thus when he goes to attack my main, I counter his main. A base trade ensues and eventually (thanks for some emergency templar storming) I'm able to take the game. This was definitely the highlight of the series imo.



Is it Viable? - HELL YES



This build offers a flexible alternative to 'standard' PvT. While it's viability against more marine heavy compositions is questionable, I think these games demonstrate that in most circumstances you will be fine - despite what your intuition might tell you! Sentries are surprisingly good when they're not being killed off!



You can also take solace in the knowledge that the base of this build is the PvT build used by Mana - if he's not pressuring you you can build the obs before the immortal and expand. See what he's doing with the obs and if he's making banshees make some Stalkers accordingly. If he's 1-1-1, great you have an expo and a ton of units coming out, you'll be fine! Don't forget to get storm out at the same time he has medivacs coming out - you can't win against the ball without feedback, at the very least (with storm on the way of course!)



So my Protoss brothers, give this a try - I bet you will be surprised!



If you have something you think would be good for "Is it Viable?" please shoot me a PM! Please try to stay civil in this thread, keep it imbalance free (i.e. dont bitch about anything being OP) and try to remain open minded. I'm not claiming this is the be all and end all of PvT, I'm simply trying to point out alternatives that a viable - being optimal or not is a different matter There is a fair number of "Will it X" type shows around these days, but really nothing for SC2 at the moment. We all know that the game is young and that anything could be viable (as seen by AugustWerra's BC rush against Iron) so the question naturally arises - what strategies work, and what strategies do not work.The idea is simple, pick a counter intuitive strategy, get 5 games of it in action and determine whether or not the build, strategy, unit composition - whatever - is viable in a competitive setting.My credentials? I'm a Protoss player. I've watched over 600 replays since the start of retail (no joke). I'm #35 on the SEA server . I regularly play practice games against Jimdiddy (Zerg on SEA, #33 at the moment but will rise next week for sure), Camlito (Zerg on SEA, #94 but a lot better than that really), Youngminii (#30 on SEA, Protoss, will rise as well), Pachi (terrible Zerg on SEAadorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.The inspiration for this came from the Korean Server, namely a game between Zero and Mio. Zero opens up with a very similar build to what Mana is playing in PvT at the moment - gate/robo/gate/gate/expo. I happened to have practiced this build quite a bit with Naruto and Infinity recently. However, his approach to the build is entirely different than mine or Mana's - he makes zealots and sentries early on and quickly adds an immortal. Mio pushes out with marine/marauder/stim to try and shut down the quick expand - but forcefields prevent him from killing the nexus or doing any damage what so ever - as depicted above.Zero went on to transition into Stalker/Sentry/Colossus (how Korean of him) but it raised my curiosity. Just exactly how viable is Zealot/Sentry/Immortal as a unit composition? Infinity kindly agreed to play some games against me to test this.Before we go on, you can grab the Zero/Mio replay here I more or less followed this:13 Gate14 Gas15 Pylon17 Core19 ZealGasSentryWarp GatePylonRoboZealotGateGateWith the idea to take my expansion around 40 supply after working out what the Terran is doing either by scouting with probe/zeal or an observer which I build from the robo once it's done (unless there is pressure). You can see the exact build in the replays that follow.Infinity used very greedy 1rax FE build. I think this is a very powerful Terran build and while it means that this build isn't tested against all unit compositions, it should give a fairly good indication about how valid it is against typical terran unit compositions. Extending this build/unit composition to other openings shouldn't be too difficult since the base build is Mana's quick expansion build - which is completely valid against every Terran opening I've encountered so far (except possibly the 3-1-2 build - still need to work on that!).Being the very first game with this new strategy, there were a lot of things I did wrong this game. Nevertheless, I could already see the potential in this unit combo. After fending off infinity's initial 2mara1rine push, I was able to take my expo and pressure him with a decent army.While I feel that I overproduced sentries, and probably could have controlled a bit better, the push was quite successful:The rest of the game I keep pressuring Infinity with immortal/sentry/zeal to great effect - while teching to Colossus. Infinity expands first, but I am able to snipe his CC (but losing my army in the process). I tried to expand at this time as well, but infinity just has too much stuff and rolls me with ease.The moral of this game is: Colossus are not the best thing to transition into. Without stalkers, you can't fend off Vikings (I'm just lucky infinity didn't make any). Further, they're vulnerable and the way you want to FF to maximise the efficiency of your Colossus renders your Zealots useless. Getting twilight tech and Templar tech up appeared to be the far better option. The game shows that the composition has potential, but needed more refinement.We spawn cross positions on Metal - and I can't get any pressure off on infinity's FE. Basically, he's ahead. I expand after getting an Immortal - which is stupid since I should have taken it before then Immortal - then proceed to rush charge. My mindset going into this was - charge kills maras, so I'll get one immortal to fend off pushes and we'll see how it goes.Well the push came.And then the push annihilated my forcesNot much to say. I got massively out played and bleh.This game taught me that rushing charge isn't going to be beneficial. Relying on one Immortal to do things also doesn't work, so in subsequent games I would have to be producing Immortals a lot more frequently.Game opens as usual, but infinity puts on a little more pressure with mara/marine. Unfortunately for him, the moment I get my Immortal out, three perfect forcefields land and trap them. This gives me a bit of a timing window to pressure his expansion where I am able to kill off a good number of SCVs.Anyway, the game progresses a bit and infinity prepared to push out and pressure my expansion. By this time he has a good economy and a good number of rax (5 I believe). But the masses of Mara/Rine come rolling in and get crushed with some nice forcefields:Again, this gives me a chance to pressure. Which I do! By now I've got storm just about finished and Infinity has mixed in Medivacs. With the aid of storm, it isn't long before infinity is force to concede. (I make it sound so one sided, it really wasnt!)This game felt a LOT better than the previous two. Getting multiple immortal and stalling charge/storm for units felt natural and good. The transition into storm felt a lot more natural than how Protoss rush for it at the moment. It was an easy and natural progression - and it felt goooood. By this stage, I'm starting to think that this is really going to work.Infinity throws in a reaper this game, and it gives me a bit of grief. Nothing too serious though. So this game, since we're close positions, I decide to try and pressure with my initial immortal squadron in hope to delay infinity's expansion. I'm able to find a sweet spot where he hasn't bunkered and get a kill or twoBut in doing so, Infinity is able to chase down my units and kill off half of them leaving my army particularly weak. Now I'm quite worried, since I'm desperately warping in units while he's massing up for a killing blow. He moves in, forcefields go down and then...Hi army gets straight up destroyed. I don't think either of us could really believe it. I take the initiative, push into his natural and do a bit of damage. I eventually lose all my units, but hey! they did their job.Now I (stupidly) decide that expanding while getting storm is a good idea. So I try to take the far gold expansion while pumping out units so I don't immediately die to a counter attack. This delays storm a bit, so when infinity comes knocking at my door ...He completely destroys me. You just cannot fight medivacs without storm or Colossus - you will just die. The rest of the game is really just a formality from here, he kills my natural, kills my gold expansion and then drops my main. gg.While I lost, the strength of this combination really shone through. The importance of getting storm in a timely manner to survive once medivacs come into play is emphasized in this game. With better decision making, this game could have easily been mine.Game opens very similar to the previous one - infinity with reaper pressure (which is more successful) and I try to pressure him with my initial set of units. However, this game he's bunkered off the back side of the minerals so I can't get into the same sweet spot as the previous game. Oh well. The game ends up being quite passive - with infinity going for quick medivacs and me go going for quick storm to counter. And well when he moved out:Storm does it's job and scared infinity away. After a while longer, I expand to my third and move out. Thanks to some pretty nice FFs we get this amazing shot:Infinity clings on to dear life, and I retreat to bolster my forces. Infinity then switches up to Banshee - a switch I completely miss. Thus when he goes to attack my main, I counter his main. A base trade ensues and eventually (thanks for some emergency templar storming) I'm able to take the game. This was definitely the highlight of the series imo.This build offers a flexible alternative to 'standard' PvT. While it's viability against more marine heavy compositions is questionable, I think these games demonstrate that in most circumstances you will be fine - despite what your intuition might tell you! Sentries are surprisingly good when they're not being killed off!You can also take solace in the knowledge that the base of this build is the PvT build used by Mana - if he's not pressuring you you can build the obs before the immortal and expand. See what he's doing with the obs and if he's making banshees make some Stalkers accordingly. If he's 1-1-1, great you have an expo and a ton of units coming out, you'll be fine! Don't forget to get storm out at the same time he has medivacs coming out - you can't win against the ball without feedback, at the very least (with storm on the way of course!)So my Protoss brothers, give this a try - I bet you will be surprised! Administrator ~ Spirit will set you free ~