michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

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Today: Why the story of Harry and Meghan matters. It’s Thursday, January 23. Mark Landler, looking at the headlines and your byline, I’ve been wondering how it’s been for you over these last few weeks to go from the Brexit beat to the Megxit beat?

mark landler

Well, I guess the first reaction I had was that it’s kind of interesting that after 27 years at this newspaper, I have risen up to the exalted position of being a gossip reporter.

michael barbaro

Mark Landler is the London bureau chief for The Times.

mark landler

But as I dug into it more and more, I realized that for all the soap opera quality to Harry and Meghan, this story actually does have a deeper dimension and a deeper context.

michael barbaro

Hm. And Mark, where in your mind does this story begin?

mark landler

Well, I think it really begins with a fairy tale.

archived recording [HORNS]

mark landler

You have to go back to May of 2018 and the wedding of Prince Harry and his American bride, Meghan Markle. And on one level, this wedding had all the elements that one would expect from a royal wedding.

archived recording [SINGING]

mark landler

It was held at Windsor Castle in the chapel of St. George. The chapel where it was held is actually also the resting place for English kings that literally go back centuries. The couple left afterwards in an open-top carriage. And so you had all of this majesty and pomp. And yet on another level, you had some elements that were strikingly new and different.

archived recording [SINGING] Stand by me.

mark landler

You had, for example, a gospel choir —

archived recording [SINGING] So darling, darling, stand by me. Ooh —

mark landler

— that sang “Stand By Me” during the service.

archived recording [SINGING] Hey, yeah. Stand by me. Stand by me.

mark landler

You had an African-American bishop —

archived recording (michael bruce curry) Now in the name of our loving, liberating, and life-giving God.

mark landler

— delivered a homily in which he quoted Martin Luther King.

archived recording (michael bruce curry) — once said, and I quote, “We must discover the power of love.”

mark landler

There are a dazzling array of celebrities.

archived recording 1 Idris Elba. archived recording 2 Idris Elba, massive celebrity. archived recording 3 Oprah Winfrey.

mark landler

Oprah Winfrey.

archived recording This is a surprise. I don’t think people were expecting her. But she is here.

mark landler

So you had this ceremony that really was both a throwback to the grandest old ceremonies of the British royal family and then something genuinely new. And at the center of all of it was this beguiling person, this figure of Meghan Markle.

michael barbaro

And what made her, in your words, so beguiling?

mark landler

Well, a couple of things. First of all, she’s an outsider. She’s an American marrying into the British royal family. But beyond that, she’s a very particular type of American.

archived recording (meghan markle) I’m Rachel Zane. I’ll be giving you your orientation.

mark landler

She’s a television actress.

archived recording (meghan markle) Good, you’ve hit on me. We can get it out of the way that I am not interested. archived recording No, I’m sorry —

mark landler

She’s three years older than Prince Harry. She’s divorced. She’s self-supporting. She’s a professional woman. But really above all, she is biracial. She has a white father and an African-American mother. And that, more than anything else made her a very different, very radical new member of a family that really hasn’t changed much for centuries.

michael barbaro

And Mark, how are the British people thinking about all this and thinking about her as they watch this wedding?

mark landler

Well, among young people, there was just a jolt of excitement. You had this vision of a young person coming into the royal family, which just by itself was exciting. The queen, after all, is in her 90s. Prince Charles, the next king, is in his 70s. And then there was the nature of this person coming into the family.

archived recording Their relationship is doing a lot to change the views that, like, the younger black generation will have. Because when I was growing up, I would never have thought this would happen.

mark landler

Young people thought of her as perhaps a vehicle for changing an institution that at some level they revered but probably thought of as somewhat outmoded. But —

archived recording I’m just very dubious —

mark landler

— then there are the older generation.

archived recording — that somebody who’s made her life in those sorts of films, been married before, comes over and has to become an active member of a very, very traditional family. I, I think that could be quite difficult.

mark landler

And for them, Meghan Markle was a challenging figure.

archived recording She’s had a completely different life. She didn’t really know the British royal family, or how it operated, or what her life would be like. And she is clearly used to being her own woman, operating —

mark landler

All the things that made her exciting to young people made her to older Brits more of a threat to the fabric of the royal family, a family they revere as embodying the best of Britain and the greatest times in British history.

michael barbaro

As understood by a certain type of Brit?

mark landler

Indeed. As understood by someone who thinks of British history in the most traditional way.

michael barbaro

And how does this attitude begin to manifest itself?

mark landler

Well, fairly quickly after the wedding. There had been this rapturous coverage of the ceremony. But really within weeks, you began to see coverage and headlines in the British tabloids that started taking a slightly harder, meaner look at Harry and especially at Meghan. And it’s worth pointing out quickly that the tabloids are, across the board, conservative publications. These are papers that really play to very traditional ideas of the meaning and the value of the monarchy. So what you begin to see are a series of articles. Some are actually asking valid questions about the lifestyle of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle.

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For example, during one summer, they took two flights on vacation on private jets. And this raised a reasonable question. Prince Harry’s a major campaigner for climate change.

archived recording You can’t lecture us and the rest of the world on climate change when you’re taking private planes everywhere. And this was their —

mark landler

And the newspapers pointed out that taking these private jet flights left an enormous carbon footprint. Also, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle embarked on a very expensive renovation of the cottage that they were gifted by Queen Elizabeth on the grounds of Windsor Castle. This is known as Frogmore Cottage. And the couple authorized a $3 million renovation that was paid for by taxpayer money.

archived recording She’s a multimillionaire from her time as a Hollywood actress. He’s a multimillionaire from all the money he’s had over the years. Two multimillionaires asking the British public, the taxpayer, to contribute 2.5 million pounds to renovate an entirely different property to the one that they’d been offered, I think is a bit awful and the crucial point as well.

mark landler

And while some of that was perhaps legitimate, you also began to see just a more petty flavor to the coverage. And it’s really perhaps most visible if you look at the coverage of Meghan Markle side by side with that of Kate Middleton, who married Prince Harry’s brother, William.

michael barbaro

Then what does that show?

mark landler

Well, for example, The Express covered a very similar incident, which is both women talking about their love of avocados. And the two headlines tell the tale. In the first headline about Kate, it says, “Kate’s Morning Sickness Cure. Prince William Gifted with an Avocado for Pregnant Duchess.” Same story, same newspaper about Meghan Markle, and the headline is “Meghan Markle’s Beloved Avocado Linked to Human Rights Abuse and Drought. Millennial Shame.”

michael barbaro

It’s like literally the polar opposite take on the exact same piece of fruit.

mark landler

It’s very hard to actually be that radically different about an avocado. But the British press figured out how to do it. While this is at some level humorous and not extremely serious, it did over time bleed into more sinister types of coverage of Meghan Markle, really around her mixed racial background. So you began to see descriptions of her in the press as, quote, “exotic,” or headlines that said that Harry’s new girl is quote “straight outta Compton.” In other words, portraying Meghan as a coming up from the mean streets of Los Angeles. And so there is an element of it that is deeper, and more problematic, and gets at out-and-out racism. And certainly portraying her not just as an entitled millennial, but as an altogether more threatening figure.

michael barbaro

So you’re seeing this kind of more conservative aspect of Britain and their view of Markle reflected in the British press.

mark landler

That’s right. But it isn’t just the press, because there is another very conservative institution here, one that is perhaps even more important. And that’s the House of Windsor itself. And Meghan Markle, by all accounts, has a very difficult introduction to the family. There are many reports that Kate Middleton is not particularly welcoming to her new sister-in-law. There is a sense that she is simply not being approved of, her lifestyle. There is a family event where one of the older aunts shows up wearing a brooch that is interpreted as a racial slur against Meghan. And Harry begins to feel a sense of aggrievement on behalf of his wife. And that then causes a rift between Harry and his brother William. One of the first tangible examples of this is when Harry and Meghan announced that they want to move out of Kensington Palace, which they share with Kate and William and his family, and move into their own place. And you begin to see more and more evidence of distance between Meghan and Harry on the one hand, and everybody else in the family on the other hand. So all of this culminates when the couple go on a long tour of southern Africa —

archived recording [CHEERING] It was a journey through Africa, but not always the one they expected.

mark landler

— and they bring along a television journalist who they’re close to, Tom Bradby, who’s making a documentary about this trip. And he has what turns out to be a remarkably revealing interview with each of them during the course of the trip.

archived recording (meghan markle) When I first met my now-husband, my friends were really happy because I was so happy. But my British friend said to me, “I’m sure he’s great, but you shouldn’t do it, because the British tabloids will destroy your life.”

mark landler

So Tom Bradby asks Meghan Markle —

archived recording (tom bradby) I don’t know what the impact on your physical and mental health of all the pressure that you clearly feel under —

mark landler

— how are you doing? Are you O.K.? And she looks visibly moved, visibly emotional.

archived recording (meghan markle) You add this on top of just trying to be a new mom or trying to be a newlywed, it’s um — yeah well, I guess. And also thank you for asking, because not many people have asked if I’m O.K. But it’s, uh, it’s a very real thing to be going through behind the scenes.

mark landler

Bradby follows up by saying, would it be fair to say she hasn’t been O.K.? And Markle thinks about it for a moment and replies —

archived recording (meghan markle) Yes.

michael barbaro

Wow, so telling the world, in what sounds a little bit like a cry for help, I am not doing O.K.

mark landler

And that is very much the way it’s interpreted. And I think also, it’s the way that Meghan Markle intended for it to be interpreted. She knew she was going to be asked that question. I don’t think there was anything accidental about the reply, nor do I think anyone misinterpreted who she meant when she said “not many people have asked if I’m O.K.” By that she meant members of the royal family. But it doesn’t end there.

archived recording As this journey wore on, another human story emerged — [CHEERING] — of a man still wrestling with the legacy of his background, of his birth, and the tragic death of his mother.

mark landler

Tom Bradby then has a very emotional interview with Prince Harry, where he says a couple of things. One, he says that his grief for his mother Diana is still a wound that festers.

archived recording (prince harry) Every single time I see a camera, every single time I hear click, every single time I see a flash, it takes me straight back.

mark landler

And so then later he tells Bradby that he’s also grown distant from his brother William.

archived recording (prince harry) Part of this role and part of this job and this family being under the pressure that its under, inevitably, you know, stuff happens. But look, we’re brothers. We’ll always be brothers. We’re starting on different paths at the moment. But I will always be there for him and as I know he’ll always be there for me.

mark landler

He’s openly acknowledging a rift between them. And that is a very powerful thing. Because remember, for the British public, these two brothers are imprinted in memory as the young boys who walked together behind their mother’s casket after her death. And so to hear Harry openly acknowledge what perhaps people whispered, that’s a very, very big deal in terms of both the emotional dynamic within the royal family, but also the image the royal family has with the British public.

michael barbaro

So this all seems to set the stage for what happens next.

archived recording Tonight, the surprise announcement from Prince Harry and Meghan Markle reportedly blindsiding the queen. After returning from a long trip to Canada, they say they intend to step back as senior members of the royal family.

mark landler

That’s right. It sets the stage for what is an epic breakup between Harry, and Meghan, and the royal family, and really between Harry and Meghan and the British people.

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michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. So Mark, what does happen next in this story?

mark landler

Well, so this is the part of the story that most people know. The couple spend several months thinking and planning their new life. They talk it over with members of the royal family. Buckingham Palace slow rolls them, tells them to take their time. It has to be thought through. It’s complicated. The tabloids, particularly The Sun newspaper, get wind of the fact that they may be leaving the country. And suddenly, they decide to tell the world that they have this plan for a new lifestyle, and all hell breaks loose.

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archived recording 1 And I got some breaking news. And it is about Harry and Meghan and a statement — archived recording 2 In a statement, they said, “We have chosen to carve out a progressive, new role within this institution.” archived recording 3 We intend to, and here is the key bit — “step back as senior members of the royal family —” archived recording 4 ”— and work to become financially independent, while continuing to fully support Her Majesty, the Queen.” I mean, it’s virtually a letter of resignation, isn’t it? archived recording 5 Harry and Meghan didn’t consult with any of their relatives before releasing that statement, meaning even their closest family members had no idea how this was going to work. archived recording 6 Buckingham Palace is now in crisis after it was blindsided by Prince Harry and wife Meghan’s announcement.

mark landler

And a few turbulent weeks later after a lot of tense negotiations —

archived recording How you could spend half your time in North America and still continue to honor your duty to the queen, the Commonwealth, and all your patronages, I do not know. It is literally impossible to do so.

mark landler

They have actually gone ahead and started this new life.

archived recording A smiling Meghan was seen out for a walk with her son and the couple’s dogs in leggings and boots. No need to follow a royal dress code.

michael barbaro

So they pulled it off.

mark landler

They pulled it off. Not without a lot of heartache, and a lot of pain, and a lot of controversy. But in the end, by acting as precipitously as they did, they managed to force the palace to deal with something that it really would have preferred to put off indefinitely. So they really forced the issue successfully.

michael barbaro

And in brief, what does this mean about their status within the royal family? How did that shake out? Are they still royals?

mark landler

Well, they are still royals. Prince Harry is still a prince. He’s still sixth in line to the throne. They still have the titles of “His Royal Highness” and “Her Royal Highness.” But in a very big concession to the queen, they agreed to stop using those titles. They’ve also agreed to repay the cost of renovating their cottage in England. And they’ve also importantly agreed to give up direct public funding of their activities. So it’s a real break. And it truly does not only liberate the couple, but it will impose some pressure on them to earn enough money to finance a lifestyle that is, by anyone’s account, very extravagant.

michael barbaro

Mark, what has been the reaction inside Britain to this seismic disruption to the royal family?

mark landler

Well first of all, it’s enthralled and riveted the country —

archived recording 1 One British newspaper today dedicated the first 17 pages of its edition to this announcement. archived recording 2 Yeah. This is — archived recording 3 —amazing.

mark landler

— with days of banner headlines and breathless TV coverage. But the reaction has very much broken along familiar generational lines.

archived recording 1 I understand why Prince Harry and Meghan have done it. I think you can see Prince Harry obviously, his wife is just getting hounded by the press, often in racially dodgy ways. And you go, of course he doesn’t want any part of it. I can completely understand that. archived recording 2 If Harry’s happy and Meghan’s happy, that’s all that matters.

mark landler

Among young people, there was a great deal of sympathy for Harry and Meghan. Among the older generation, it’s been very different.

archived recording All you can say is that Meghan Markle and Prince Harry are behaving like spoiled brats, totally entitled —

mark landler

There’s a sense that Prince Harry and Meghan exploited the goodwill of the queen. They blindsided Buckingham Palace by putting out their announcement the way they did, and also that they kind of want to have it both ways.

archived recording Robert on email says, if Harry and Meghan want to relinquish their royal status, then get on with it. At the moment, they’re behaving like self-indulgent rich kids being supported by the taxpayer. They want to have their cake and eat it.

mark landler

It confirms some of the worst suspicions that people had about Meghan Markle as this relationship first began.

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michael barbaro

Mark, at the start of this conversation, you promised that you would tell us why all this matters beyond the human drama, and what it reveals about Britain. So here’s your chance.

mark landler

You’re right, I did promise that. And here’s the greater significance. Harry and Meghan are not just leaving Britain at any old time. They’re leaving Britain at the very moment that Britain is leaving the European Union, that it is finally carrying out Brexit.

michael barbaro

Right.

mark landler

And I think this timing is crucial to understanding how this debate is playing out in Britain. Because as you see the country charting a new identity, casting off from Europe, there’s a great deal of uncertainty, of uneasiness about the future of this country. What kind of a role will it play in the world? Will it be diminished? Will it be isolated? What will the post-Brexit Britain look like? So at this time of national uncertainty, there is a yearning for symbols. There’s a, a sort of an urge to reach out to things that symbolize British history and the immutability of the British idea. And there’s no greater symbol of that than the monarchy.

michael barbaro

Right.

mark landler

And so this idea, that suddenly this brilliant young couple — this shining symbol of the future of the monarchy — would wind up turning their backs on it, and leave Britain, comes at a particularly vulnerable moment for the British people. And as it turns out, the people who are hardest on Meghan Markle are also generally the people who voted for Brexit. And it’s one of the great paradoxes of this story. That their resistance to Meghan Markle — their complicity in making her life miserable — has led to this outcome that has convulsed the royal family, has threatened an institution that these people care so deeply about. So I think that’s the importance here. It’s not just a debate that breaks down along generational lines. It’s a debate that breaks down very much along Brexit lines. Did you vote for staying in the European Union or for leaving? How you voted in that case weighs very much in how you feel about Harry and Meghan.

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michael barbaro

So the same forces that pushed for Britain to leave the E.U., and are now craving its greatest symbols of nationalism in the form of the monarchy, they are the same forces who have inflicted all of this on Meghan and on Harry. And perhaps driven them to leave the monarchy, to weaken the monarchy. It’s a, perhaps, classic case of getting what you wanted until you realize that it’s not really what you wanted.

mark landler

That’s right. And in that regard, it’s a lot like the Brexit debate itself. The people who voted to leave imagined some greater Britain. But instead, they may wind up not only with a much diminished country, but with a much diminished monarchy.

michael barbaro

Mark, thank you very much.

mark landler

Thank you, Michael.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (adam schiff) Mr. Chief Justice, Senators, Counsel for the President, and my fellow House Managers —

michael barbaro

On Wednesday, Democratic House impeachment managers began laying out their case to senators for convicting and removing President Trump from office, accusing him of a corrupt scheme to pressure Ukraine into tarnishing his political rivals.

archived recording (adam schiff) If not remedied by his conviction in the Senate and removal from office, President Trump’s abuse of his office and obstruction of Congress will permanently alter the balance of power among the branches of government.

michael barbaro

While the Senate has so far refused to allow for witnesses, the House impeachment managers brought them to the floor anyway in the form of video clips of current and former officials who have already testified before the House, including former National Security Council official Fiona Hill and European Union ambassador Gordon Sondland.

archived recording (gordon sondland) Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the 2016 election, D.N.C. server, and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States. And we knew these investigations were important to the president.

michael barbaro

At one point, the Democrats even played a clip from President Trump himself.

archived recording — if foreigners, if Russia, if China, if someone else offers you information on an opponent, should they accept it, or should they call the F.B.I.? archived recording (donald trump) I think maybe you do both. I think you might want to listen. I don’t, there’s nothing wrong with listening. If somebody called from a country, Norway, we have information on your opponent. Oh, I think I’d want to hear it. archived recording Do you want that kind of interference in our elections? archived recording (donald trump) It’s not an interference. They have information. I think I’d take it.

michael barbaro