GeckoXp Profile Blog Joined June 2013 Germany 1948 Posts Last Edited: 2014-01-08 16:49:41 #1



Update: January 8th, 2014



Protoss Strategy Draft



+ Show Spoiler [log] +

Update: 25th Nov, LP Help Page online

Liquipedia Tutorial now:



Update: 26th Nov, Chef made a Strat Guide Collection!

Check out the shit and expand:



Update: 10th Dec, T Guides

Cryoc added two updated Terran Guides:

Fake Fake Double (vs. Protoss)



Fake Fake Double (vs. Protoss) 4 Barracks Sunken Break Build





Update: 12th Dec, Build Order Tables

HP.Shell added new category:



Update: 26th Nov. - 16th Dec, Build Order Tables

HP.Shell updated most of the Build Orders -> new tables



Update: 16th Dec, PvZ Build Draft

I finished a draft how the PvZ Strat Portal could look like:

Liquipedia Tutorial now: User:GeckoXp/Strategy Check out the shit and expand: Chef's Collection in the Forums Cryoc added two updated Terran Guides:HP.Shell added new category: Category:Missing games ; if something misses, go for it!HP.Shell updated most of the Build Orders -> new tablesI finished a draft how the PvZ Strat Portal could look like: User:GeckoXp/PVZBuilds







+ Show Spoiler [Original Post] +

For some time now a lot of different users, beginners and experienced players alike, argued about the currently documented strategy resources of this page. Apparently a lot of the sticked threads and Liquipedia I articles are not up to date. While some of the advice given is timeless, especially builds and mechanics drastically changed. Hence this project. Help updating it. You really should, if you care about Brood War, as we desperately need new players. The easier new players can enter the game, the more chances we have to keep a healthy community.



How to Contribute: Beginners, No-Time-People



Let's see this topic as more than a simple discussion. The point is, everyone can help, regardless of experience or rank. Even and especially beginners might give some insights regulars miss.



I'm a beginner



If you're a beginner, you can share your experiences. You can post here by answering the following questions:



Did you find help easily?



Was there misleading advice?



Did you find the resources in time?



What could be done better?



Was the information too basic or too specific?





Keep in mind we're talking either about the strategy forum sticked threads or the strategy sections on Liquipedia.







I don't have a lot of time



If you already or actively read strategy articles on Liquipedia, you most likely already found broken or halfway filled articles like



{{Strategy-stub}} -> tells us there's information missing (so we can expand it)



{{cleanup}} -> it's written in horrible English (you don't understand the sentences at all, because some drunk Russian wrote it while fighting a bear)



{{evidence}} -> if the article suggests that a lot of forum articles discussed the strategy/build, but nothing is linked



{{delete}} -> if the article makes no sense whatsoever; be careful though, this won't happen too often. The only example I could come up with, would be an article how to open with a 5 Pool on Island maps





This is already a tremendous help!



How to Contribute: People with more time



That's best. Let's assume you have time and motivation, but little to no idea where to start. There are a few things to help out the TL.net crew and Liquipedia.







Strategy Forum



Re-read the recommended Guide sticky. Go through them, post here what you find still good advice, post here if you think something is missing. It's fairly easy, even beginners can help with that.



Also, some of the guides listed in the sticky often have a really good OP and even more helpful posts later on. You could write a short summary for the OP and give links to the posts, so a beginner doesn't have to read a one year old post with 40 pages to only find help in the OP and three other posts. This could look a bit like this (it's a fairly silly example):



Recommended Guide TL;DR



Very good collection of strategy tutorials. Raning from beginner's level to expert wisdom.

Helpful Posts in the thread:

Chill promising to update the thread in 2007



Equinox_kr cheering for Chill





Note: you get links to a post by pressing the "#" symbol on top of the post you want to link. The new url can be copy/pasted from the browser search bar thing.



Futhermore, you can scout the strat forum in between today and 2009 for good guides, which aren't in already.



Also, if you're experienced, you could write an article yourself. Just like





Liquipedia



Let's start with the idea that you have no idea how to edit Liquipedia. The first step is quite easy. Log-in on Liquipedia. Hooray, you can do work.



A somewhat helpful approach would be to randomly read over existing articles and correct the spelling and typos. You can add the templates listed in the short paragraph for people without time. That's already some help.



Some articles have exemplary VODs linked. Some of these VODs are entries from the TLPD. Click the links and check if the correct VOD is indeed linked. Usually it's not. At least in some cases. If you find a broken VOD link, find the right VOD and replace the existing link with the correct one.



If you find utter bullshit on an Liquipedia article, which might be the case, thanks to the vandalizing edits done by Shade, feel free to erase the information and replace with a better explanation. As this only needs text-input the editing shouldn't be too hard.



If you find utter bullshit and you're not entirely sure if you're correct or not, click the Discussion Tab instead of the Edit Tab and comment on the article. Explain what you think is wrong, paste URLs to forum discussions or VODs if you have any. Add "--~~~~" at the end of your comment, so we know who you are.



Theoretically, if this project finds more helpers, you can also target broken, badly phrased or incomplete articles. Whenever some adds the "Strategy Stub", "Evidence needed" or "Clean Up" template, the pages will automatically be displayed in these categories:



Category:Articles needing cleanup

Most times spell check, bad language, broken images -> fix this by using your brain





Category:Articles needing cleanup Category:Strategy stubs

Incomplete information. Often only feature a few words, make a text out of it!





Category:Strategy stubs Category:Articles needing supporting evidence

Find guides (TL.net Forums) to source the statements, or VODs or Replays





Category:Articles needing supporting evidence



The last point is a bit difficult. You can add sources by either linking them, which is done like this:



[http://google.com Google Com]

first is the target url, second will show as VODs

This is a direct link





Or via references. References are the small numbers in blue, which look a bit like this: ² . These link to the bottom of a page. Creating References is done like this:





5 Pool is great <ref name=5PoolGreat>[http:google.com Gecko on 5 Pools]</ref>



and give out this: 5 Pool is Great²





Please note, that References need this at the bottom of the page to be displayed:





==References==

{{Reflist}}





If not, you'll get an error.





Moreover, regardless of how experienced you are, Liquipedia II (the SCII one) has a new "Build Order Box". For now a build order in Liquipedia I is written like this:





==Build Order==



*8/9 Pylon

*10/17 Gateway





This only displays a bullet point list. It's good enough, but the Liquipedia II BO Box has a "?" Symbol, looks nicer and links to an article explaining a beginner on how to read a build order. Since almost all Liquipedia I articles only have bullet points, you can help us making strategy pages better by using (replacing) the old bullet points with the new box. To do it, you simply need to code it like this:





{{build|name="Examplary Build Order, Supply"|width=400px|race=Protoss|

*8/9' Pylon

*10/17 Gateway

}}





That's only two lines of text, but could make a difference for a beginner. It helps you to get coins as well for your contributions.



This brings me almost to the last point. You can write on Strategy Articles if some are missing. Open an existing build order guide and copy it all. Replace the text and simply edit the templates, the way you want them to be. It's fairly straight forward, not really complicated and saves you a bit of time. If you need a place to experimentate with your page, click on your nick after you logged in. That's your sandbox. You can write anything there and nobody will edit it but you. (Unless you write gross stuff and propagate something which might kill eSports).



Lastly, I tried to re-write the





How do you check for quality?



Yes, Chef and others once told me they don't feel like editing, because there could be morons out there to troll their posts by editing bullshit in. Please, for the love of god, don't let that stop you. If you're a really experienced player and want to help, post in this thread. If you have a good rank, know what you're talking about and are not braindead, we could use you simply for doulbe checking the content of edits. Enter discussions, feel free to question anything that's on LP or the Strat Forum. Your voice matters. The less you participate, the higher the chances for trolls trolling the people wanting to make LP a better place.











That's about it. Now go editing.

For some time now a lot of different users, beginners and experienced players alike, argued about the currently documented strategy resources of this page. Apparently a lot of the sticked threads and Liquipedia I articles are not up to date. While some of the advice given is timeless, especially builds and mechanics drastically changed. Hence this project.. You really should, if you care about Brood War, as we desperately need new players. The easier new players can enter the game, the more chances we have to keep a healthy community.Let's see this topic as more than a simple discussion. The point is, everyone can help, regardless of experience or rank. Even and especially beginners might give some insights regulars miss.If you're a beginner, you can share your experiences. You can post here by answering the following questions:Keep in mind we're talking either about the strategy forum sticked threads or the strategy sections on Liquipedia.If you already or actively read strategy articles on Liquipedia, you most likely already found broken or halfway filled articles like Zerg Counter to 14 CC . Let's show with this example what you can do without having to spend more than three minutes of your time. Log in on Liquipedia, click the EDIT tab and enter one of these:This is already a tremendous help!That's best. Let's assume you have time and motivation, but little to no idea where to start. There are a few things to help out the TL.net crew and Liquipedia.Re-read the recommended Guide sticky. Go through them, post here what you find still good advice, post here if you think something is missing. It's fairly easy, even beginners can help with that.Also, some of the guides listed in the sticky often have a really good OP and even more helpful posts later on. You could write a short summary for the OP and give links to the posts, so a beginner doesn't have to read a one year old post with 40 pages to only find help in the OP and three other posts. This could look a bit like this (it's a fairly silly example):Very good collection of strategy tutorials. Raning from beginner's level to expert wisdom.Helpful Posts in the thread:Note: you get links to a post by pressing the "#" symbol on top of the post you want to link. The new url can be copy/pasted from the browser search bar thing.Futhermore, you can scout the strat forum in between today and 2009 for good guides, which aren't in already.Also, if you're experienced, you could write an article yourself. Just like Nina's ZvP Guide Let's start with the idea that you have no idea how to edit Liquipedia. The first step is quite easy. Log-in on Liquipedia. Hooray, you can do work.A somewhat helpful approach would be to randomly read over existing articles and correct the spelling and typos. You can add the templates listed in the short paragraph for people without time. That's already some help.Some articles have exemplary VODs linked. Some of these VODs are entries from the TLPD. Click the links and check if the correct VOD is indeed linked. Usually it's not. At least in some cases. If you find a broken VOD link, find the right VOD and replace the existing link with the correct one.If you find utter bullshit on an Liquipedia article, which might be the case, thanks to the vandalizing edits done by Shade, feel free to erase the information and replace with a better explanation. As this only needs text-input the editing shouldn't be too hard.If you find utter bullshit and you're not entirely sure if you're correct or not, click the Discussion Tab instead of the Edit Tab and comment on the article. Explain what you think is wrong, paste URLs to forum discussions or VODs if you have any. Add "--~~~~" at the end of your comment, so we know who you are.Theoretically, if this project finds more helpers, you can also target broken, badly phrased or incomplete articles. Whenever some adds the "Strategy Stub", "Evidence needed" or "Clean Up" template, the pages will automatically be displayed in these categories:The last point is a bit difficult. You can add sources by either linking them, which is done like this:Or via references. References are the small numbers in blue, which look a bit like this:. These link to the bottom of a page. Creating References is done like this:Please note, that References need this at the bottom of the page to be displayed:If not, you'll get an error.Moreover, regardless of how experienced you are, Liquipedia II (the SCII one) has a new "Build Order Box". For now a build order in Liquipedia I is written like this:This only displays a bullet point list. It's good enough, but the Liquipedia II BO Box has a "?" Symbol, looks nicer and links to an article explaining a beginner on how to read a build order. Since almost all Liquipedia I articles only have bullet points, you can help us making strategy pages better by using (replacing) the old bullet points with the new box. To do it, you simply need to code it like this:That's only two lines of text, but could make a difference for a beginner. It helps you to get coins as well for your contributions.This brings me almost to the last point. You can write on Strategy Articles if some are missing. Open an existing build order guide and copy it all. Replace the text and simply edit the templates, the way you want them to be. It's fairly straight forward, not really complicated and saves you a bit of time. If you need a place to experimentate with your page, click on your nick after you logged in. That's your sandbox. You can write anything there and nobody will edit it but you. (Unless you write gross stuff and propagate something which might kill eSports).Lastly, I tried to re-write the Help:Reading Build Orders section (which the ? of the Strat Box will link you to) from the SCII Wiki. The original wasn't really fitting for BW, hence this. If you disagree, start editing. Please.Yes, Chef and others once told me they don't feel like editing, because there could be morons out there to troll their posts by editing bullshit in. Please, for the love of god, don't let that stop you. If you're a really experienced player and want to help, post in this thread. If you have a good rank, know what you're talking about and are not braindead, we could use you simply for doulbe checking the content of edits. Enter discussions, feel free to question anything that's on LP or the Strat Forum. Your voice matters. The less you participate, the higher the chances for trolls trolling the people wanting to make LP a better place.That's about it. Now go editing. "Was macht Gecko da aus meiner BWCL." - Annihilator

amazingxkcd Profile Blog Joined September 2010 GRAND OLD AMERICA 15736 Posts #2 will take a look at it and see what I can do

The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings

iHirO Profile Blog Joined January 2011 United Kingdom 1380 Posts #3



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=432937 Here's another relevant thread that discuss this issue recently. Graphics This is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?

Golgotha Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Korea (South) 8318 Posts Last Edited: 2013-11-25 04:35:37 #4



Also, I really really really highly suggest having a SINGLE SEPARATE page for all new modern builds and strategies. There are simply too many sections for newcomers to know where to look, go, navigate, and if many of the sections are jumbled with old and new info, people will just be even more confused.



Also, if there was a single page for new modern 2013 BW strats that we could work on, then our energy and focus can be better spent. My 2 cents.



Keep the old info of course! But tag them as OLD.





On November 25 2013 07:43 iHirO wrote:

Here's another relevant thread that discuss this issue recently.



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=432937 Here's another relevant thread that discuss this issue recently.



..that is SC2. Damn. Thanks Gecko for doing this for the community. Would it be okay to add builds of pro players? Just copy their build and post em raw?Also, I really really really highly suggest having a SINGLE SEPARATE page for all new modern builds and strategies. There are simply too many sections for newcomers to know where to look, go, navigate, and if many of the sections are jumbled with old and new info, people will just be even more confused.Also, if there was a single page for new modern 2013 BW strats that we could work on, then our energy and focus can be better spent. My 2 cents.Keep the old info of course! But tag them as OLD...that is SC2.

ninazerg Profile Blog Joined October 2009 United States 7264 Posts #5 Here's what's going to happen:



1. Nobody will volunteer, because they're hoping someone else will do it.

2. A bunch of arrogant noobs will start writing material.

3. People will just start adding a bunch of very flawed build orders to liquipedia. For example:



127/135 - Research vessel energy



4. You will get your gold coinz back. COINZ. "If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

GeckoXp Profile Blog Joined June 2013 Germany 1948 Posts #6 On November 25 2013 13:34 Golgotha wrote:

Damn. Thanks Gecko for doing this for the community.





I haven't done anything yet. Don't fall in the gratitude trap, this project was longer discussed, 2pac and Epoxide had influence as well, I just made a random topic. For now.



I haven't done anything yet. Don't fall in the gratitude trap, this project was longer discussed, 2pac and Epoxide had influence as well, I just made a random topic. For now.

Would it be okay to add builds of pro players? Just copy their build and post em raw?





If you add some info. E.g. where it's from, which match up, etc, it'd be better than nothing and for sure and a good starting point.



If you add some info. E.g. where it's from, which match up, etc, it'd be better than nothing and for sure and a good starting point.

Also, I really really really highly suggest having a SINGLE SEPARATE page for all new modern builds and strategies. There are simply too many sections for newcomers to know where to look, go, navigate, and if many of the sections are jumbled with old and new info, people will just be even more confused.





Please elaborate. I'll go through this text bit by bit. I don't think a page with only Build Orders would be very good, nor would it help you to keep an overview.

I agree, that the navigation right now might be confusing, especially if you go to the Liquipedia Main. This is being changed soon hopefully either way, unrelated to this project and much thanks to the efforts of Mewka, itsjustatank and Quirinus. This might make finding strategy overviews for P, T and Z easier to find, as well as a beginner's section. We'll have to wait and see.

Furthermore, we could add categories, e.g. "old" <-> "new" <-> "basic" builds. By clicking the categories you'd see a list of all articles belonging in one of the categories. We could also change the list a bit. Not sure, definitely something we can think about.





Please elaborate. I'll go through this text bit by bit. I don't think a page with only Build Orders would be very good, nor would it help you to keep an overview.I agree, that the navigation right now might be confusing, especially if you go to the Liquipedia Main. This is being changed soon hopefully either way, unrelated to this project and much thanks to the efforts of Mewka, itsjustatank and Quirinus. This might make finding strategy overviews for P, T and Z easier to find, as well as a beginner's section. We'll have to wait and see.Furthermore, we could add categories, e.g. "old" "new" "basic" builds. By clicking the categories you'd see a list of all articles belonging in one of the categories. We could also change the list a bit. Not sure, definitely something we can think about.

Also, if there was a single page for new modern 2013 BW strats that we could work on, then our energy and focus can be better spent. My 2 cents.



Keep the old info of course! But tag them as OLD.



Yes, definitely. But we need a list of articles first. When I got a list, I could set up some sort of talk page or designated post in this thread and link it in the OP. For now all I got are the lists tagged by the templates - the broken, inclompete and badly phrased ones. We definitely need more input.





On November 25 2013 07:43 iHirO wrote:

Here's another relevant thread that discuss this issue recently.



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=432937 Here's another relevant thread that discuss this issue recently.



..that is SC2.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. It's about BW here though. I read the thread, it has a few ideas, but sadly only shows other wikis fight the same problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the other wikis, a lot of their templates really helped the BW part! Yes, definitely. But we need a list of articles first. When I got a list, I could set up some sort of talk page or designated post in this thread and link it in the OP. For now all I got are the lists tagged by the templates - the broken, inclompete and badly phrased ones. We definitely need more input...that is SC2.[/QUOTE]Thanks. It's about BW here though. I read the thread, it has a few ideas, but sadly only shows other wikis fight the same problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the other wikis, a lot of their templates really helped the BW part! "Was macht Gecko da aus meiner BWCL." - Annihilator

pebble444 Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Italy 2171 Posts #7 Especially snipealot2. Anyone (including myself) might write down build orders from that stream, since, its live and build are contemporary.



Ifu.Pauline recently posted Vods for zerg; Tbh i don' t know how this project is gonna work. I mean i tought myself about how could liquipedia be updated, but if people are not doing it, it means its not gonna work. Maybe some new site or blog could work for this project. People like new spaces to breed new ideas "Awaken my Child, and embrace the Glory that is your Birthright"

Golgotha Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Korea (South) 8318 Posts #8



When I first came here and asked for help, this was everyone's answer: "Learn a standard build order until it becomes automatic for you."



Also, build orders are easy stuff to contribute, for volunteer projects like this it has to be easy to get things rolling. Stuff like Nina's ZvP guide, that's just not going to happen (often).



If we are worried about the quality of the build orders, have a strict requirement of FPVOD examples and build order notes.



Oh and please make sure that this new project you are working on is a completely separate page that has CURRENT taped on it. And separate the build orders even further by standard play and non-standard. We should also focus on standard play, the gimmicks and cheesing, people can find out on their own.



"Primary response against Protoss FE"......

+ Show Spoiler + http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss)

Currently there are simply too many resources (a lot of them outdated), that are all over the place. Some are stickied here, posted on Liquipedia, and the modern ones are lost in these forums after a week. Tragedy. What is even worse is that most of the outdated stuff you find will not help you in the most efficient manner possible. It'll confuse you because it talks about strats and ideas from years past. That is not something a newcomer will understand. However, a build order...anyone can understand this and nearly anyone can copy it. Yes, I a raw build order is not helpful, but that is why there are such things as build order notes that explain why you do this and etc. But we do not need to explain to every newcomer how modern ZvP became this way and why we play in this fashion. We have older articles for that. What we lack and what newcomers can most benefit from is learning build orders like robots.When I first came here and asked for help, this was everyone's answer: "Learn a standard build order until it becomes automatic for you."Also, build orders are easy stuff to contribute, for volunteer projects like this it has to be easy to get things rolling. Stuff like Nina's ZvP guide, that's just not going to happen (often).If we are worried about the quality of the build orders, have a strict requirement of FPVOD examples and build order notes.Oh and please make sure that this new project you are working on is a completely separate page that has CURRENT taped on it. And separate the build orders even further by standard play and non-standard. We should also focus on standard play, the gimmicks and cheesing, people can find out on their own."Primary response against Protoss FE"......

Capresis Profile Joined September 2008 United States 502 Posts Last Edited: 2013-11-25 16:36:41 #9 I was looking through the stubs section and the first 400 'stubs' are all maps. It's cool that there's so many on liquipedia, but do maps really need to be more than stubs? Lots of them seem to be Blizzard maps that there's not a lot to say about, as well.



EDIT: With that in mind, does anyone mind if I un-stub all the non-proleague maps? I first went to stubs to see what I could help with, and removing all the blizz maps at least would make searching through it a bit easier.

GeckoXp Profile Blog Joined June 2013 Germany 1948 Posts #10 On November 26 2013 01:13 Capricis wrote:

I was looking through the stubs section and the first 400 'stubs' are all maps. It's cool that there's so many on liquipedia, but do maps really need to be more than stubs? Lots of them seem to be Blizzard maps that there's not a lot to say about, as well.



EDIT: With that in mind, does anyone mind if I un-stub all the non-proleague maps? I first went to stubs to see what I could help with, and removing all the blizz maps at least would make searching through it a bit easier.



The easy one first. I apologize for forgetting the [ wiki ] tags in the OP. It's fixed now. Generally speaking, a page marked with {{stub}} (hence a stub) is a page with incomplete information. There are dozens of completely unrelated stubs, you apparently found the maps. These are not the point of this project, or at least a very minor one. I completely agree, that there are dozens of pages for which you can't possibly add more info. However, the decision whether or not these stubs should be removed should be done by the Liquipedia staff. They have their reasons I guess. Maybe not, who knows? Again, not too interesting for us.



Let's focus on the strategy stubs. These you can find here:



On November 25 2013 23:40 Golgotha wrote:

Currently there are simply too many resources (a lot of them outdated), that are all over the place. Some are stickied here, posted on Liquipedia, and the modern ones are lost in these forums after a week. Tragedy. What is even worse is that most of the outdated stuff you find will not help you in the most efficient manner possible. It'll confuse you because it talks about strats and ideas from years past. That is not something a newcomer will understand. However, a build order...anyone can understand this and nearly anyone can copy it. Yes, I a raw build order is not helpful, but that is why there are such things as build order notes that explain why you do this and etc. But we do not need to explain to every newcomer how modern ZvP became this way and why we play in this fashion. We have older articles for that. What we lack and what newcomers can most benefit from is learning build orders like robots.



When I first came here and asked for help, this was everyone's answer: "Learn a standard build order until it becomes automatic for you."



Also, build orders are easy stuff to contribute, for volunteer projects like this it has to be easy to get things rolling. Stuff like Nina's ZvP guide, that's just not going to happen (often).



If we are worried about the quality of the build orders, have a strict requirement of FPVOD examples and build order notes.



Oh and please make sure that this new project you are working on is a completely separate page that has CURRENT taped on it. And separate the build orders even further by standard play and non-standard. We should also focus on standard play, the gimmicks and cheesing, people can find out on their own.



"Primary response against Protoss FE"......

+ Show Spoiler + http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss)

Currently there are simply too many resources (a lot of them outdated), that are all over the place. Some are stickied here, posted on Liquipedia, and the modern ones are lost in these forums after a week. Tragedy. What is even worse is that most of the outdated stuff you find will not help you in the most efficient manner possible. It'll confuse you because it talks about strats and ideas from years past. That is not something a newcomer will understand. However, a build order...anyone can understand this and nearly anyone can copy it. Yes, I a raw build order is not helpful, but that is why there are such things as build order notes that explain why you do this and etc. But we do not need to explain to every newcomer how modern ZvP became this way and why we play in this fashion. We have older articles for that. What we lack and what newcomers can most benefit from is learning build orders like robots.When I first came here and asked for help, this was everyone's answer: "Learn a standard build order until it becomes automatic for you."Also, build orders are easy stuff to contribute, for volunteer projects like this it has to be easy to get things rolling. Stuff like Nina's ZvP guide, that's just not going to happen (often).If we are worried about the quality of the build orders, have a strict requirement of FPVOD examples and build order notes.Oh and please make sure that this new project you are working on is a completely separate page that has CURRENT taped on it. And separate the build orders even further by standard play and non-standard. We should also focus on standard play, the gimmicks and cheesing, people can find out on their own."Primary response against Protoss FE"......



I think I see the problem you are describing. I have a few problems and a few ideas. First off, the re-organizing should wait a bit. I wrote in the OP that the



The



Portal:Beginners



Portal:Beginners Protoss Strategy



Protoss Strategy Zerg Strategy



Zerg Strategy Terran Strategy





Generally speaking, the race specific portals are not too bad. They should offer some general information about the race and further links to Match Up Guides (!= Build Orders, something like Nina's Guide) and a list of build orders. I think right now the overview could be better, but it's not the problem you adress.



I completely agree that something like the Match Up specific Build Order sections for each race are confusing and not helpful.



Category:ZvP Builds for a random example





I don't know how the process for the work should be, I only know how a solution could look like. These kind of pages are made automatically by the information from the Info Boxes. These comes in handy, but generates a list like in the example. Hence, that's not what we're going for. Instead we could link to a page, which lists the builds orders, but shows something like this:





The easy one first. I apologize for forgetting the [ wiki ] tags in the OP. It's fixed now. Generally speaking, a page marked with {{stub}} (hence a stub) is a page with incomplete information. There are dozens of completely unrelated stubs, you apparently found the maps. These are not the point of this project, or at least a very minor one. I completely agree, that there are dozens of pages for which you can't possibly add more info. However, the decision whether or not these stubs should be removed should be done by the Liquipedia staff. They have their reasons I guess. Maybe not, who knows? Again, not too interesting for us.Let's focus on the strategy stubs. These you can find here: Category:Strategy stubs (This should narrow down the stub-hits a lot)I think I see the problem you are describing. I have a few problems and a few ideas. First off, the re-organizing should wait a bit. I wrote in the OP that the Liquipedia main page will be re-constructed soon-ish. We're bugging the crew and the crew bugs us. With that in mind, the entire scheme will be a little different.The current Strategy Portal ) is gobshite in terms of overview. With what the guys plan, it's going to be obsolete either way and hard to find, if you don't look for it. Instead, the Main Page might offer four different giant buttons, which will link to four different portals. Most likely these:Generally speaking, the race specific portals are not too bad. They should offer some general information about the race and further links to Match Up Guides (!= Build Orders, something like Nina's Guide) and a list of build orders. I think right now the overview could be better, but it's not the problem you adress.I completely agree that something like the Match Up specific Build Order sections for each race are confusing and not helpful.I don't know how the process for the work should be, I only know how a solution could look like. These kind of pages are made automatically by the information from the Info Boxes. These comes in handy, but generates a list like in the example. Hence, that's not what we're going for. Instead we could link to a page, which lists the builds orders, but shows something like this: Exemplary Concept of ZvP Builds





General Openings



The following Build Orders dictate the first few minutes of the game and can be used as basic opening. Usually, a player uses them to transition into a more complex or exotic build order later on. (or some other random explanation)



9 Pool



9 Pool Speed



11 Pool



[...]





Current Popular Standard Build Orders



The following Build Orders are still used in most of the games and support standard play. Standard in this context means a basic Build Order which tries to either reach the late stages of a game safely or with a slight economic advantage.



6 Hatch Hydra



6 Hatch Lurker



3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra





(or similar, I'm totally out of the loop)



Current Popular Exotic Build Orders



The following Build Orders try to enable the Zerg to take down the Protoss in the earlier stages of a game or kill off the opponent with a prepared timing attack before the late stages. If the Zerg performs badly or his opening doesn't deal enough damage, the game is most likely over. (or similar, replace exotic with a more fitting term)



5 Pool



6 Pool



3 Hatch Hydra All-In





Outdated Build Orders



Outdated Build Orders are not frequently used anymore, either due to changed global strategies or because they were designed for outdated maps. In some rare scenarios these Builds can still be used.



Ursadon Rush



9 Hatch Queen Parasite Attack





(I have no clue, I'm not a Zerg)





The following Build Orders dictate the first few minutes of the game and can be used as basic opening. Usually, a player uses them to transition into a more complex or exotic build order later on. (or some other random explanation)The following Build Orders are still used in most of the games and support standard play. Standard in this context means a basic Build Order which tries to either reach the late stages of a game safely or with a slight economic advantage.(or similar, I'm totally out of the loop)The following Build Orders try to enable the Zerg to take down the Protoss in the earlier stages of a game or kill off the opponent with a prepared timing attack before the late stages. If the Zerg performs badly or his opening doesn't deal enough damage, the game is most likely over. (or similar, replace exotic with a more fitting term)Outdated Build Orders are not frequently used anymore, either due to changed global strategies or because they were designed for outdated maps. In some rare scenarios these Builds can still be used.(I have no clue, I'm not a Zerg) End: Exemplary Concept of ZvP Builds





So, please keep in mind, that I'm not in the loop of current meta games and strategies and used to play Protoss only in most 'serious' games. Hence, I need input. If you can come up with a better concept, please tell.



If you like it, please tell. If you like it and think it's the optimal solution, go and read over the builds in the categories. Rate them in different terms:



Popular vs. unpopular

Standard vs. All-In

Can still be used vs . hopelessly outdated*



*=we won't delete articles, regardless of how outdated these are. It's still history. We will move it out of the strategy section though, so no worries.



For the end:

I agree, we need some external page to keep the overview at some point. For now, I tried to summarize the current first two days (lul) of the project on my sandbox: So, please keep in mind, that I'm not in the loop of current meta games and strategies and used to play Protoss only in most 'serious' games. Hence, I need input. If you can come up with a better concept, please tell.If you like it, please tell. If you like it and think it's the optimal solution, go and read over the builds in the categories. Rate them in different terms:Popular vs. unpopularStandard vs. All-InCan still be used vs . hopelessly outdated**=we won't delete articles, regardless of how outdated these are. It's still history. We will move it out of the strategy section though, so no worries.For the end:I agree, we need some external page to keep the overview at some point. For now, I tried to summarize the current first two days (lul) of the project on my sandbox: User:GeckoXp/Strategy "Was macht Gecko da aus meiner BWCL." - Annihilator

Chef Profile Blog Joined August 2005 10797 Posts #11 I always felt liquidpedia fragmented contributors too much, made the credit gained for putting in tonnes of work lost, and killed discussion completely. The other shitty thing about liquidpedia is people editing things to be wrong.



There's like 10 people that sometimes look at this forum. Maybe I will take a minute to do something useful that people might be interested in, but it won't be wasting my time updating liquidpedia. LEGEND!! LEGEND!!

hebikesh Profile Blog Joined November 2013 Costa Rica 10 Posts #12 --- Nuked ---

Golgotha Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Korea (South) 8318 Posts Last Edited: 2013-11-26 03:50:07 #13



edit:

and this is just my opinion but the

site is unnecessary information. Larva management, muta micro, backstabbing surrounding, yeah it is all good and dandy but I'd rather have the first page to "Zerg Strategy" be filled with current BOs in regards to the current meta game.



Most people will come from a BW or SC2 background and know how Zerg works, or they will learn about muta micro and backstabbing later. But that should not be their focus when they start. They should learn a BO.



Basically, there should be a completely different new page with the example you described of the Zerg strat page. Yeah. that is good gecko. those are small changes but that simplification and organization will go a long ways for editors and newcomers. itll make a big difference. big huge icons for links that make navigation easier are good too. most of the other stuff, you do not need.edit:and this is just my opinion but the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerg_Strategy site is unnecessary information. Larva management, muta micro, backstabbing surrounding, yeah it is all good and dandy but I'd rather have the first page to "Zerg Strategy" be filled with current BOs in regards to the current meta game.Most people will come from a BW or SC2 background and know how Zerg works, or they will learn about muta micro and backstabbing later. But that should not be their focus when they start. They should learn a BO.Basically, there should be a completely different new page with the example you described of the Zerg strat page.

ninazerg Profile Blog Joined October 2009 United States 7264 Posts #14 On November 26 2013 12:44 Golgotha wrote:

Yeah. that is good gecko. those are small changes but that simplification and organization will go a long ways for editors and newcomers. itll make a big difference. big huge icons for links that make navigation easier are good too. most of the other stuff, you do not need.



edit:

and this is just my opinion but the

site is unnecessary information. Larva management, muta micro, backstabbing surrounding, yeah it is all good and dandy but I'd rather have the first page to "Zerg Strategy" be filled with current BOs in regards to the current meta game.



Most people will come from a BW or SC2 background and know how Zerg works, or they will learn about muta micro and backstabbing later. But that should not be their focus when they start. They should learn a BO.



Basically, there should be a completely different new page with the example you described of the Zerg strat page. Yeah. that is good gecko. those are small changes but that simplification and organization will go a long ways for editors and newcomers. itll make a big difference. big huge icons for links that make navigation easier are good too. most of the other stuff, you do not need.edit:and this is just my opinion but the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerg_Strategy site is unnecessary information. Larva management, muta micro, backstabbing surrounding, yeah it is all good and dandy but I'd rather have the first page to "Zerg Strategy" be filled with current BOs in regards to the current meta game.Most people will come from a BW or SC2 background and know how Zerg works, or they will learn about muta micro and backstabbing later. But that should not be their focus when they start. They should learn a BO.Basically, there should be a completely different new page with the example you described of the Zerg strat page.



Build orders are not strategy, that are a component of strategy. Having the fundamentals of understanding the match-up is more important than build orders. Build orders are not strategy, that are a component of strategy. Having the fundamentals of understanding the match-up is more important than build orders. "If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

GeckoXp Profile Blog Joined June 2013 Germany 1948 Posts #15 On November 26 2013 10:02 Chef wrote:

I always felt liquidpedia fragmented contributors too much, made the credit gained for putting in tonnes of work lost, and killed discussion completely. The other shitty thing about liquidpedia is people editing things to be wrong.



There's like 10 people that sometimes look at this forum. Maybe I will take a minute to do something useful that people might be interested in, but it won't be wasting my time updating liquidpedia.



It is highly unlikely to change your mind about Liquipedia, I guess. I hope we find a few more 'good' players to help us judging whether or not edits made sense, whenever we have doubts. So far Bakuryu and Cryoc helped out 'a bit' here - especially Cryoc has some good guides on his user page already.

Anyhow, please keep in mind that Liquipedia is probably one of the adresses beginners will be directed to at first, hence it should be at least a bit updated to help them out. We need these guys.



When I first read your post I was a bit angry, but that's how I am regardless of what I read, I'm German. Huge thanks for the collection so far - this post shouldn't be only about Liquipedia either way. Hopefully your collection can be expanded, I linked it in the OP. With better threads maybe there's hope this forum gets a bit more attention 8[ It is highly unlikely to change your mind about Liquipedia, I guess. I hope we find a few more 'good' players to help us judging whether or not edits made sense, whenever we have doubts. So far Bakuryu and Cryoc helped out 'a bit' here - especially Cryoc has some good guides on his user page already.Anyhow, please keep in mind that Liquipedia is probably one of the adresses beginners will be directed to at first, hence it should be at least a bit updated to help them out. We need these guys.When I first read your post I was a bit angry, but that's how I am regardless of what I read, I'm German. Huge thanks for the collection so far - this post shouldn't beabout Liquipedia either way. Hopefully your collection can be expanded, I linked it in the OP. With better threads maybe there's hope this forum gets a bit more attention 8[ "Was macht Gecko da aus meiner BWCL." - Annihilator

Golgotha Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Korea (South) 8318 Posts #16 Yes, raw BOs are not strategy. But it is the perfect tool to explain and showcase strategy and why we play the way we do. It's like having a narration to a story or pictures to a book of just words. I think it's just good practice to put a BO alongside the strategy (like BO notes). Because to be frank, muta micro is useless without a BO, backstabbing is stupid unless you are doing a legit BO, etc.



But whatever happens I support this! Any change is good and I am sure it will be in the right direction.

2Pacalypse- Profile Joined October 2006 Croatia 8313 Posts #17 Stickied.



Hopefully more people decide to help with this. Moderator "We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill

Falling Profile Blog Joined June 2009 Canada 10382 Posts #18 Very cool initiative. Of course you don't want me editing anything because I suck, but hopefully other people step up so I'm not using outdated strategies. Moderator It's Struggle Session Time

GeckoXp Profile Blog Joined June 2013 Germany 1948 Posts #19 On December 04 2013 13:45 Falling wrote:

Very cool initiative. Of course you don't want me editing anything because I suck, but hopefully other people step up so I'm not using outdated strategies.



Pics for infoboxes as well as the box updates can be done by anyone. Pics for infoboxes as well as the box updates can be done by anyone. "Was macht Gecko da aus meiner BWCL." - Annihilator

vOdToasT Profile Blog Joined September 2010 Sweden 2686 Posts #20 I added some specific responses to 14CC I like all of the races in Brood War

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