This thread is for discussing the DPC system and the OP's proposals etc. This thread is definitively NOT for discussing other users, nor is it for discussing history etc. Stay on topic.

Op-ed: Solving the DPC's problems November 25th, 2018 06:57 GMT Text by Julmust Kuala Lumpur Recap Solving the DPC's problems Over the last year, we’ve seen an increase in friction between the three parts of the DPC: the teams, the tournament organizers, and the fans. The three have been pushed further and further away from each other thanks to scandals involving DMCA takedowns and players making racist comments on stream. This polarisation resulted in a situation where the entire DPC now sits on a barrel of gunpowder with a lit match in its hand. Over the last year, the gunpowder in this barrel has gotten drier and drier for every passing scandal, simply because Valve have chosen to stay reactive rather than proactive. Or — to be more frank — they’ve chosen not to get their hands dirty.



To me, the solution is clear as day, and something I’ve been advocating for a long time: Valve needs to hire a DPC commissioner. A single person that sits on top of the entire system and — at least officially — has a hand in all matters that pertain to the league. A single point of contact for the TO’s and the teams.



"Make no mistake, this is a defining moment for Dota 2 esports." A commissioner is needed to prevent situations where the COO of a huge team feels like he has tweet out



And these are not isolated events. Over the last year, I was lucky enough to work as a journalist covering Dota 2 exclusively. I got to interview everyone from players to managers to talent. And most times when I brought up Valve related subjects — be it Major tournament structure or last-minute roster moves or anything else — their reaction was all pretty much the same: they don’t know what’s going on because Valve doesn’t communicate. They’re often flying as blind as the fans are. For a “league” as big as the DPC, that’s beyond sad. It’s downright laughable.



Now imagine if Valve would’ve had the foresight to install a commissioner a year ago. ESL could’ve reached out to him to find out if they’re allowed to sell media rights and Kuku could be serving whatever sentence he was handed down. So if a local government would’ve come along and tried to ban him, Valve could’ve simply pulled the Major. They can’t do that now because the only public statement made about Kuku came from TNC and said was that he was given

(Edit: Since the writing of this article, TNC has clarified the penalty. However, that is — again — a reactive response)



Roger Goodell, hated but needed

This is where Valve needs to look to the NFL. As any fan of (American) football does, I despise the NFL’s commissioner, Roger Goodell. But I also realize how important he is for the league. He’s constantly the bad guy. You never see him delivering good news and wherever he goes he’s met with boos. He only comes out of hiding to announce a player has been fined or suspended and no one agrees with his rulings 100% of the time, not even close. However, he has built up a consistent system of penalties and sanctions that protects the league.



So just as in the NFL, not everyone would like the decisions being made by the DPC commissioner. In fact, a lot of people will vigorously protest the decisions made. The person in charge would be almost universally hated by fans. His job would be to lie down on a grenade to save his platoon. But by doing so — by making the hard decisions — he would play the role the DPC needs and the gunpowder would never start to dry.



As much as I wish I could end this piece on a happy note, saying that the future looks bright, I will remain pessimistic for the time being. Having a single person on top is not something that fits Valve’s philosophy as a company. They want a flat structure and a commissioner, by definition, needs to be above everyone else. I hope they come to their senses because make no mistake, this is a defining moment for Dota 2 esports. If this rift is not mended properly and carefully it will continue to grow until the Chinese and “international” scenes are completely separate. And that would be the downfall of the game we all love.

Over the last year, we’ve seen an increase in friction between the three parts of the DPC: the teams, the tournament organizers, and the fans. The three have been pushed further and further away from each other thanks to scandals involving DMCA takedowns and players making racist comments on stream. This polarisation resulted in a situation where the entire DPC now sits on a barrel of gunpowder with a lit match in its hand. Over the last year, the gunpowder in this barrel has gotten drier and drier for every passing scandal, simply because Valve have chosen to stay reactive rather than proactive. Or — to be more frank — they’ve chosen not to get their hands dirty.To me, the solution is clear as day, and something I’ve been advocating for a long time: Valve needs to hire a DPC commissioner. A single person that sits on top of the entire system and — at least officially — has a hand in all matters that pertain to the league. A single point of contact for the TO’s and the teams.A commissioner is needed to prevent situations where the COO of a huge team feels like he has tweet out “We have had no contact from Valve, despite our attempts to reach out to them.” to explain his actions, a team captain having to take to Twitter to get Valve to contact him , or a VP of a major TO saying “They don’t engage a lot to discuss things.” when asked about if they contacted Valve regarding media rights. Imagine that. ESL basically had to go “fuck it” and poke the bear to find out if they were allowed to DMCA strike Twitch streams. coL — even though they denied it — felt they had to kick a player for non-gameplay related incidents if they wanted to compete in a Major. All of this because Valve hasn’t figured out something as basic as communication and being proactive.And these are not isolated events. Over the last year, I was lucky enough to work as a journalist covering Dota 2 exclusively. I got to interview everyone from players to managers to talent. And most times when I brought up Valve related subjects — be it Major tournament structure or last-minute roster moves or anything else — their reaction was all pretty much the same: they don’t know what’s going on because Valve doesn’t communicate. They’re often flying as blind as the fans are. For a “league” as big as the DPC, that’s beyond sad. It’s downright laughable.Now imagine if Valve would’ve had the foresight to install a commissioner a year ago. ESL could’ve reached out to him to find out if they’re allowed to sell media rights and Kuku could be serving whatever sentence he was handed down. So if a local government would’ve come along and tried to ban him, Valve could’ve simply pulled the Major. They can’t do that now because the only public statement made about Kuku came from TNC and said was that he was given “necessary penalties and sanctions”. What does that even mean? It could be anything from having to skip dessert to 10 lashes. I wouldn’t be happy about that as a Chinese fan.This is where Valve needs to look to the NFL. As any fan of (American) football does, I despise the NFL’s commissioner, Roger Goodell. But I also realize how important he is for the league. He’s constantly the bad guy. You never see him delivering good news and wherever he goes he’s met with boos. He only comes out of hiding to announce a player has been fined or suspended and no one agrees with his rulings 100% of the time, not even close. However, he has built up a consistent system of penalties and sanctions that protects the league.So just as in the NFL, not everyone would like the decisions being made by the DPC commissioner. In fact, a lot of people will vigorously protest the decisions made. The person in charge would be almost universally hated by fans. His job would be to lie down on a grenade to save his platoon. But by doing so — by making the hard decisions — he would play the role the DPC needs and the gunpowder would never start to dry.As much as I wish I could end this piece on a happy note, saying that the future looks bright, I will remain pessimistic for the time being. Having a single person on top is not something that fits Valve’s philosophy as a company. They want a flat structure and a commissioner, by definition, needs to be above everyone else. I hope they come to their senses because make no mistake, this is a defining moment for Dota 2 esports. If this rift is not mended properly and carefully it will continue to grow until the Chinese and “international” scenes are completely separate. And that would be the downfall of the game we all love. Administrator I'm dancing in the moonlight

Moobutt Profile Joined May 2011 United States 1658 Posts #2 Excellent suggestion.



I just hope such actions are taken before the Dota 2 scene is sundered in two.



Not every fan might have a grasp on the geopolitics at play here. But the bottom line is that China would most definitely ban a video game over something like this if it's improperly handled much further. 3/22/16 The Day EG Died

xM(Z Profile Joined November 2006 Romania 291 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 07:31:12 #3 i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.



even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?.



i see the China issues pragmatically SFish - the initial (lets say)outrage came from (some)people but the later one came from the people need or desire to get/have a good social score/rating. it's not 'the fans' that drove the revolt but the realities of an inorganic, abusable, power structure. And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.

Moobutt Profile Joined May 2011 United States 1658 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 07:56:24 #4 On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.





I'll take the opposite side to play devil's advocate a bit, but also because I'm a strong believer in financial incentives done right....



Valve would do "moral policing" for the same reason the NFL, NBA, NHL, Tennis, Golf, Gymnastics, UFC/MMA, Boxing, Track/Field, and every other major sport has organizations that regulate player behavior. Because they are driven by financial interests.



I'll take the opposite side to play devil's advocate a bit, but also because I'm a strong believer in financial incentives done right....Valve would do "moral policing" for the same reason the NFL, NBA, NHL, Tennis, Golf, Gymnastics, UFC/MMA, Boxing, Track/Field, and every other major sport has organizations that regulate player behavior. Because they are driven by financial interests. On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?



Valve is already directly responsible for what's unfolding, they're just simply not taking responsibility for it in any manner.



Not imposing some sort of regulation on player behavior* (past the current status quo of community outrage) is a surefire way to lose in the long term. I think we might be seeing one of those moments unfold now.



*To clarify this last point, I'm not blaming any player for their words or actions (even if some might deserve blame). I'm blaming Valve for not having clear and concise punishments for player's actions. Such open and transparent punishments might have prevented the Chinese government's reaction to ban players if they saw that a player had already been punished. We'll never know. Valve is already directly responsible for what's unfolding, they're just simply not taking responsibility for it in any manner.Not imposing some sort of regulation on player behavior* (past the current status quo of community outrage) is a surefire way to lose in the long term. I think we might be seeing one of those moments unfold now.*To clarify this last point, I'm not blaming any player for their words or actions (even if some might deserve blame). I'm blaming Valve for not having clear and concise punishments for player's actions. Such open and transparent punishments might have prevented the Chinese government's reaction to ban players if they saw that a player had already been punished. We'll never know. 3/22/16 The Day EG Died

Oukka Profile Joined September 2012 Scotland 378 Posts #5 It should be in valve's interests to curb down on issues like racism and bigotry anyways. And this isn't even that, or about moral policing. It's the same as last year (was it even last season or was it for this season) they didn't publish rules to the DPC because "written down rules could be prone to abuse" or something equally dumb.



They run a circus worth at least tens of millions of dollars, the entire pro-dota ecosystem is probably worth hundred million, and they refuse to communicate anything. I understand that announcing fines or ruling on roster moves are not particularly hype inducing communications or don't create positive vibes in everyone, but they're necessary for avoiding doing the same things again. DPC is a business, and a competition, not just few kids playing some dotes together for funzies and valve needs to behave accordingly. Whether it is a commissioner or a committee or even just a named point of contact is a different question but the laissez-fere is going to lead into issues like this occurring and escalating.

I play children's card games and watch a lot of dota, CS and HS

haxhax Profile Joined January 2015 125 Posts #6 oh no not american closed circuit sports allegories

xM(Z Profile Joined November 2006 Romania 291 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 09:32:18 #7 On November 25 2018 16:53 Moobutt wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.





I'll take the opposite side to play devil's advocate a bit, but also because I'm a strong believer in financial incentives done right....



Valve would do "moral policing" for the same reason the NFL, NBA, NHL, Tennis, Golf, Gymnastics, UFC/MMA, Boxing, Track/Field, and every other major sport has organizations that regulate player behavior. Because they are driven by financial interests.



Show nested quote +

On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?



Valve is already directly responsible for what's unfolding, they're just simply not taking responsibility for it in any manner.



Not imposing some sort of regulation on player behavior* (past the current status quo of community outrage) is a surefire way to lose in the long term. I think we might be seeing one of those moments unfold now.



*To clarify this last point, I'm not blaming any player for their words or actions (even if some might deserve blame). I'm blaming Valve for not having clear and concise punishments for player's actions. Such open and transparent punishments might have prevented the Chinese government's reaction to ban players if they saw that a player had already been punished. We'll never know. I'll take the opposite side to play devil's advocate a bit, but also because I'm a strong believer in financial incentives done right....Valve would do "moral policing" for the same reason the NFL, NBA, NHL, Tennis, Golf, Gymnastics, UFC/MMA, Boxing, Track/Field, and every other major sport has organizations that regulate player behavior. Because they are driven by financial interests.Valve is already directly responsible for what's unfolding, they're just simply not taking responsibility for it in any manner.Not imposing some sort of regulation on player behavior* (past the current status quo of community outrage) is a surefire way to lose in the long term. I think we might be seeing one of those moments unfold now.*To clarify this last point, I'm not blaming any player for their words or actions (even if some might deserve blame). I'm blaming Valve for not having clear and concise punishments for player's actions. Such open and transparent punishments might have prevented the Chinese government's reaction to ban players if they saw that a player had already been punished. We'll never know. financial incentives done right... argument:

the finances are tied to the people, right?; they buy, advertise, watch, all-in-all finance the product(s). for the argument to have a leg to stand on, you'll need to prove(conceptually or otherwise) that any merit coming from a done right (financial)incentive when it's based on people, is righteous driven. (in this specific case, you'd need to know, have statistically relevant data, that people condoning cursing, values less(monetary wise) than people objecting to them; you'll never be able to get that data so the argument can not be made).



Valve is not responsible for anything. they gave you a game to enjoy, a ladder/competition to measure yourself against other players, and you ruined it with not even having basic/home education(the not having the 7yrs from home saying but i think it translates to french only).

(*you is general not personal) argument:the finances are tied to the people, right?; they buy, advertise, watch, all-in-all finance the product(s). for the argument to have a leg to stand on, you'll need to prove(conceptually or otherwise) that any merit coming from a done right (financial)incentive when it's based on people, is righteous driven. (in this specific case, you'd need to know, have statistically relevant data, that people condoning cursing, values less(monetary wise) than people objecting to them; you'll never be able to get that data so the argument can not be made).Valve is not responsible for anything. they gave you a game to enjoy, a ladder/competition to measure yourself against other players, and you ruined it with not even having basic/home education(the not having the 7yrs from home saying but i think it translates to french only).(*is general not personal) And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.

Taf the Ghost Profile Joined December 2010 United States 7788 Posts #8 On November 25 2018 18:00 haxhax wrote:

oh no not american closed circuit sports allegories



It's hard to disagree with Julmust's point. Goodell is paid a lot of money to be the most hated man in American for 4 months a year. He's the point-man to absorb all of the hate from decisions being made.



Though the main thing is there needs to be a dedicated set of contact means for all of the people involved professionally in the scene. That's the massive failure on Valve's part.



As to the current situation, if a country chooses to not grant a Visa to a player, that's is there choice and it's always something they can do. See: Visas; TI. Valve should have rules in place (do they?) for when a team is forced to use a stand-in. Just run it like that when local authorities are playing games.



Yes, it's not a great solution, but you're dealing with geopolitics. Everyone gets that the Chinese Scene is being incredibly hypocritical here, but they have a roll to perform for a regime that's pretty far up there in "total humans killed" category. Hypocrisy is pretty low down the list to complain about. That really isn't the big worry. The big worry is what the ChiComs will do once Valve has to ban a Chinese player for a tirade against some non-Chinese. It's hard to disagree with Julmust's point. Goodell is paid a lot of money to be the most hated man in American for 4 months a year. He's the point-man to absorb all of the hate from decisions being made.Though the main thing is there needs to be a dedicated set of contact means for all of the people involved professionally in the scene. That's the massive failure on Valve's part.As to the current situation, if a country chooses to not grant a Visa to a player, that's is there choice and it's always something they can do. See: Visas; TI. Valve should have rules in place (do they?) for when a team is forced to use a stand-in. Just run it like that when local authorities are playing games.Yes, it's not a great solution, but you're dealing with geopolitics. Everyone gets that the Chinese Scene is being incredibly hypocritical here, but they have a roll to perform for a regime that's pretty far up there in "total humans killed" category. Hypocrisy is pretty low down the list to complain about. That really isn't the big worry. The big worry is what the ChiComs will do once Valve has to ban a Chinese player for a tirade against some non-Chinese.

Bobinthepub Profile Joined May 2018 4 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 12:31:09 #9 Dota 2 is a game. Played by lots o neerds



That shud be all its about.. Whatsup with all the real life crossovers? Like that video of SEA kids bashing each others head with a chair on a lan cafe. Full on gaga stuff

Artisreal Profile Joined June 2009 Germany 8144 Posts #10 On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.



even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?.



i see the China issues pragmatically SFish - the initial (lets say)outrage came from (some)people but the later one came from the people need or desire to get/have a good social score/rating. it's not 'the fans' that drove the revolt but the realities of an inorganic, abusable, power structure.

By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.



Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.



Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.

Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity. By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity. passive quaranstream fan

clusen Profile Joined May 2010 Germany 2615 Posts #11 On November 25 2018 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:

The big worry is what the ChiComs will do once Valve has to ban a Chinese player for a tirade against some non-Chinese.

I don't think that's a big worry, the chinese community can demand basically whatever they want if Valve gives in now and somehow upholds the bans.



The arguments and reactions from their side will always be the same.





I don't think that's a big worry, the chinese community can demand basically whatever they want if Valve gives in now and somehow upholds the bans.The arguments and reactions from their side will always be the same.

lolfail9001 Profile Joined August 2013 Russian Federation 27008 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 11:19:45 #12 On November 25 2018 19:26 Artisreal wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.



even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?.



i see the China issues pragmatically SFish - the initial (lets say)outrage came from (some)people but the later one came from the people need or desire to get/have a good social score/rating. it's not 'the fans' that drove the revolt but the realities of an inorganic, abusable, power structure.

By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.



Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.



Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.

Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity. By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity.

The day anyone starts to sincerely treat Dota 2 players as role models, or god forbid look up to them, is the day global economy starts to crash.



That said, yeah, people should be aware that their actions are always vulnerable to being abused by other people, and the more public your presence is, the higher the possibility of this happening. The day anyone starts to sincerely treat Dota 2 players as role models, or god forbid look up to them, is the day global economy starts to crash.That said, yeah, people should be aware that their actions are always vulnerable to being abused by other people, and the more public your presence is, the higher the possibility of this happening. DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon

Hermanoid Profile Joined March 2011 Sweden 46 Posts #13 Nothing to add, people here summed it up well. Valve is intentionally overpolicing to maintain their sport in official circumstances, where the communication SHOULD (cappa underline) always be very clean, as in any sport. To achieve this, they push the viewpoint that this all is a "scandal", despite 99% of the playerbase not caring or being bothered by it. It's a bit disingenuous but it's the level they need to play at to truly disincentivize bad language and to that end, I think they are doing it right.



Because if not seen from that perspective this is all becomes ridiculous. I have said it before and I will say it again, most of the mentioned slurs are not even racist, they just call it that. "Ching chong" plays at a language barrier, not racism. If someone calls me a "hördigördi" I don't call the police over it. xyzåäö

RaigiCS Profile Joined November 2018 6 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 11:41:58 #14



Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?



Steve Hughes sums it up quite well



Here's a way to solve it, push back against identity politics. Take a stand. Let freedom of speech prevail.Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?Steve Hughes sums it up quite well



"I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao "I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao

spudde123 Profile Joined February 2012 4661 Posts #15 On November 25 2018 20:24 Hermanoid wrote:

Nothing to add, people here summed it up well. Valve is intentionally overpolicing to maintain their sport in official circumstances, where the communication SHOULD (cappa underline) always be very clean, as in any sport. To achieve this, they push the viewpoint that this all is a "scandal", despite 99% of the playerbase not caring or being bothered by it. It's a bit disingenuous but it's the level they need to play at to truly disincentivize bad language and to that end, I think they are doing it right.



Because if not seen from that perspective this is all becomes ridiculous. I have said it before and I will say it again, most of the mentioned slurs are not even racist, they just call it that. "Ching chong" plays at a language barrier, not racism. If someone calls me a "hördigördi" I don't call the police over it.



Valve isn't policing anything at this point. It's the local government officials at Chongqing pushing for the ban. Valve isn't policing anything at this point. It's the local government officials at Chongqing pushing for the ban.

Artisreal Profile Joined June 2009 Germany 8144 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 13:05:52 #16 On November 25 2018 20:18 lolfail9001 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 25 2018 19:26 Artisreal wrote:

On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.



even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?.



i see the China issues pragmatically SFish - the initial (lets say)outrage came from (some)people but the later one came from the people need or desire to get/have a good social score/rating. it's not 'the fans' that drove the revolt but the realities of an inorganic, abusable, power structure.

By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.



Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.



Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.

Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity. By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity.

The day anyone starts to sincerely treat Dota 2 players as role models, or god forbid look up to them, is the day global economy starts to crash.



That said, yeah, people should be aware that their actions are always vulnerable to being abused by other people, and the more public your presence is, the higher the possibility of this happening. The day anyone starts to sincerely treat Dota 2 players as role models, or god forbid look up to them, is the day global economy starts to crash.That said, yeah, people should be aware that their actions are always vulnerable to being abused by other people, and the more public your presence is, the higher the possibility of this happening.

I'd argue that players like notail, kuro, guardian, coldzera, grubby, fatal1ty, casters like tastosis, tobi, synd, owen, redeye, sheever, personalities like hotbid, nazgul, julmust definitely work as role models that inspire people to (think about) pursue a career in esports.

If you can bring forth a compelling argument against that, I'd be willing to think about my position.

But you only contributing a one-liner is not going to challenge me to more than this post.



I'd argue that players like notail, kuro, guardian, coldzera, grubby, fatal1ty, casters like tastosis, tobi, synd, owen, redeye, sheever, personalities like hotbid, nazgul, julmust definitely work as role models that inspire people to (think about) pursue a career in esports.If you can bring forth a compelling argument against that, I'd be willing to think about my position.But you only contributing a one-liner is not going to challenge me to more than this post. On November 25 2018 20:40 RaigiCS wrote:

Here's a way to solve it, push back against identity politics. Take a stand. Let freedom of speech prevail.



Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?



Steve Hughes sums it up quite well



"I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao

would you make the same case against women's suffrage? would you make the same case against women's suffrage? passive quaranstream fan

Alpino Profile Joined June 2011 Brazil 1571 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 13:22:24 #17 On November 25 2018 19:26 Artisreal wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 25 2018 16:30 xM(Z wrote:

i don't know man, you want moral policing from a company driven by financial interests/gains; i can't see that fixing anything.



even after PC'ing everything, imbalances will still be there but now, you'll have someone directly responsible: Valve.

why would they put themselves in that position?.



i see the China issues pragmatically SFish - the initial (lets say)outrage came from (some)people but the later one came from the people need or desire to get/have a good social score/rating. it's not 'the fans' that drove the revolt but the realities of an inorganic, abusable, power structure.

By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.



Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.



Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.

Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity. By now we all know that you're reluctant to realise, that bullying and insulting other people can be fun, but as soon as you take a step further and find yourself in the public sphere where people don't know you and are there with the goal of paying a game of dota 2, suddenly your comments are lacking the context of who you are, and it simply isn't acceptable anymore.Unless you're a racist shitbag, it's to be expected that there won't be any racism coming from your chat or voice lines.Being a decent human being, or "PC", as you name it, should be expected, more so if you're a role model.Don't disgrace the honor of being looked up to for your achievements by saying something you don't mean or take the shit you're getting for it with dignity.



hey, we're talking about games here how do you dare talk sense!?



On November 25 2018 20:40 RaigiCS wrote:

Here's a way to solve it, push back against identity politics. Take a stand. Let freedom of speech prevail.



Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?



Steve Hughes sums it up quite well



https://youtu.be/ceS_jkKjIgo



"I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao Here's a way to solve it, push back against identity politics. Take a stand. Let freedom of speech prevail.Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?Steve Hughes sums it up quite well"I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao



Yeah I'm sure war, famine, poverty and the destruction of important ecosystems are the minor problems compared to big ol' feminism. hey, we're talking about games here how do you dare talk sense!?Yeah I'm sure war, famine, poverty and the destruction of important ecosystems are the minor problems compared to big ol' feminism. 20/11/2015 - never forget EE's Ember

zev318 Profile Joined October 2010 Canada 1764 Posts #18 valve would never do that, they only want the money and not any responsibility whatsoever

dragonswarrior Profile Joined August 2015 381 Posts #19 On November 25 2018 20:40 RaigiCS wrote:

Here's a way to solve it, push back against identity politics. Take a stand. Let freedom of speech prevail.



Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?



Steve Hughes sums it up quite well



https://youtu.be/ceS_jkKjIgo



"I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao Here's a way to solve it, push back against identity politics. Take a stand. Let freedom of speech prevail.Feminism and it's offshoots will destroy us all if this is allowed to continue. Where does it end? Who defines what's offendable?Steve Hughes sums it up quite well"I wanna live in a democracy but I never wanna be offended again! ....well you're an idiot!" lmao



"No, I don't wanna be respectful, so YOU have to shut up!" is all this argument has ever been. FreezePeach "activists" (and I use the term extremely loosely) always seem to think freedom of speech means freedom from social consequences and that's completely ridiculous. They also never seem to realize that telling others to stop talking about what's important to them is *GASPS* exactly what they accuse the mean 'ol feminists of doing!!



DUN DUN DUN



Plot twist: they were the hypocrites this whole time. "No, I don't wanna be respectful, so YOU have to shut up!" is all this argument has ever been. FreezePeach "activists" (and I use the term extremely loosely) always seem to think freedom of speech means freedom from social consequences and that's completely ridiculous. They also never seem to realize that telling others to stop talking about what's important to them is *GASPS* exactly what they accuse the mean 'ol feminists of doing!!DUN DUN DUNPlot twist: they were the hypocrites this whole time. “Words are pale shadows of forgotten names. As names have power, words have power. Words can light fires in the minds of men. Words can wring tears from the hardest hearts.”

PlayerofDota Profile Joined May 2017 28 Posts Last Edited: 2018-11-25 15:06:34 #20 The issue isn't a "commissioner" or whatever, the issue is that there is no rules in place at all. What is a commissioner going to enforce? There is no rule anywhere that says offensive language is restricted in tournament play!



There is no set punishment if one breaks such rules and finally there is no one to really enforce those rules and punishments anyways.



In South Korea for example SC1 players are only allowed to type "pp" and "gg" during the game, anything else and they get punished. People outside of Korea though wanted to see taunting, wanted to see bad mouthing, it made games more fun, so Blizzard essentially allowed for a certain level of offensive language and trolling to go on.



So its completely different for everyone.



I personally want to see taunting and trash talking. And what is and isn't racist is up for debate as well. As a general rule I think pro players should be allowed to say whatever they want, unless its direct calls for violence or something universally abregious and harmful in OFFICIAL TOURNAMENTS ONLY! We can't and shouldn't police what they say in pubs, in their own personal home and on their own personal time.

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