The former U.S Senator talks about America’s relations with Pakistan, the 2016 presidential elections and Narendra Modi

Former U.S Senator Larry Pressler is a well-known figure in India because of a landmark piece of legislation that he championed. The Pressler Amendment, passed in 1985, required the President of the United States to certify every year that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear device, for it to remain eligible for military and economic aid. The amendment forced President George W. Bush to discontinue aid to Pakistan in 1990. But after a few years, the law was diluted and aid restored. Mr. Pressler argues in his new book, 'Neighbours in Arms: An American Senator’s Quest for Disarmament in a Nuclear Subcontinent’ (Penguin Random House India) that the military industrial complex in the U.S is responsible for the nuclear proliferation in South Asia and and elsewhere.

In an exclusive interview to The Hindu, the former senator makes several provocative and thoughtful points on how the American system works and the future of India-US bilateral ties. Excerpts.

So you hold the Pentagon responsible for Pakistan’s nuclear weapon?

Yes, I do believe that. I don't think either Pakistan or India would have gone ahead with the nuclear weapon if we were sincere about non-proliferation.

Why would you blame the Pentagon for that?

Pentagon is the most powerful part of the U.S government. It is not only the Pentagon, but it is the arms construction business, law firms.. it permeates all over. Secretary of Defence is not only a person, he is a system. When he goes to the Hill (the seat of the U.S Congress), he gives in to pressure from members of Congress. For example, Alan Cranston, a liberal from California, was a great champion of B-1 bombers, which I don't think he ever believed in. That was about jobs in Los Angeles. This is not all bad. This is almost like a public works programme. Some people have said, our economy needs a large public works programme and building arms is one such. It is also about national security. Lot of citizens support this, because of security concerns.

So it is not about Pentagon alone, I call it the octopus, with its tentacles reaching out everywhere.. It is about a whole system. We are the only democracy in the world, where the first thing a foreign ambassador has to look for is to hire a few firms to lobby for his country. The lobbying firms feed money into the system that feeds the octopus. These become campaign contributions.

Your struggle to pass the Pressler amendenment and then to keep it there was tough. You think the Pentagon and intelligence agencies misguided consecutive administrations on Pakistan’s nuclear weapons programme?

The Pentagon and its allies are for arming everybody. I can’t say the Pentagon gave Pakistan the nuclear weapons directly, but they could have stopped it easily. .. Pakistan is sort of the generals’ favourite state. A four-star general could fly in there…and get everything that he wants, in one meeting. A lot of the generals don't think in terms of ... democracies. If they went to New Delhi, they had to deal with the PM, the ministers, the press, parliament. Pakistan’s military is what our military came to like. CIA is part of the same game. Lot of voices like mine and John Glenn (former senator) tried to oppose this.

Pentagon was more comfortable with dictatorships?

This octopus is always more comfortable dealing with dictatorships rather than democracies that are accountable to public interests.

American strategy has been to please Pakistan into compliance with U.S strategic goals. You think that has failed?

Yes, completely failed. Where was Osama bin Laden hidden? I feel so sorry for India to have a neighbour like that. The Pakistani leadership has lied over and over, directly to Congress and other leaders. George W. Bush, did understand this lie, but Ronald Reagan did not. I was very disappointed with Reagan for this. We have got a system that does not analyze anything. It was one mistake after another in our relationship with Pakistan. The Pentagon won’t say that. The whole region is a playpen for generals.

Looking forward, America should be tougher to Pakistan?

We should be much tougher. We should declare them a terrorist state, and we should not give them any more weapons than they already have. We should not condone their behaviour - the series of lies that they have told American presidents and American Congress. I have been to Pakistan a few times, the system that they have - the military controlled government. There could be some terrorists some who could smuggle it (nuclear weapon) out of Pakistan.

President Trump has said similar things about defence manufacturers.

Yes, his views are refreshing on this. I have a lot of hope, though the Pentagon has not changed much. He has appointed Lisa Curtis, who has a clear view of Pakistan, to the White House. Trump will be there for eight years. He has a chance to make a difference. With India, and Pakistan relations. But he is also bound by the octopus. I am very hopeful that President Trump will be different than we expect, in the subcontinent. It is a very dangerous situation. I am hopeful that he will see through this game of the octopus.

You were a solider, but you are not a hawk?

No, no. I lost my last election because I was made out to be too soft on security issues.

You say in the book that an average citizen in India or America has no say in foreign policy.

I have never met a constituent, in my lifetime, who said ‘I want American to be greatest power on earth’ or ‘I am worried that some other country is getting ahead of us militarily’. The average American person does not think that way. This octopus here, the elite, it is their decision. They decide what the people want. That partly also explains Donald Trump’s victory, which surprised me also. His is a voice that is a little different. And nobody has disappointed me more than Bill Clinton and Al Gore on this (South Asia).

But you supported Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential election, who may not share your views on “octopus?”

Yes. And that (supporting Ms. Clinton) was a not an easy decision. But the Republican Party has moved too far to the right in recent years, in particular, on some domestic issues.. on the rights of gays to marry, aid to the poor etc. You may not like either of them, but you are obligated to make a choice. So I endorsed Hillary. She is another phenomenon - she is an example of the liberals who wants to show how tough they are. I don’t believe that she believes in all that stuff she says. She just embraced the generals, when she wanted to be president. I was disappointed by that.

You speak about an offer to be a lobbyist for India in Washington that you turned down? Can you say anything more about that?

Yes, it was not a written offer, but several firms in the city thought if they could get me on board, they could get the India account. But I have never been a registered lobbyist. I could have made a lot of money, but I chose not to. I am not a rich man. Many people assume that all former senators end up as lobbyists. I live on my pension. I have done some voluntary advocacy. I did not want to sell my soul to the devil to be lobbyist.

It has reached a point where the U.S -India nuclear deal is an arms deal, I think. May be the people of India need it at this point, but it is the impoverished people paying for all that arms. I think we are the ones who upped the ante with aid to Pakistan, and other things…We went to Vietnam, but Vietnam is today a communist country. We went to Iraq, got rid of Saddam [Hussein] without any replacement. Afghanistan has been another disaster. These places would have been same or better of, if we had never gone there. That is what I, as an old man, says.

Defence cooperation is a key component of India-U.S bilateral ties.

I guess it is necessary, but I am very saddened that a great part of the so called great new relationship is the military sales relationship. President Trump has spoken about all these American jobs because of these arms going to India.

You think the future of India -US ties is bright?

Yes, but we have to recognize that India is our friend, India is our soulmate. We tear India down when our generals fly down there and encourage the ISI. We need to stop doing that. We need to create a super India-U.S alliance, one that is based on trade and development, and not based on arms trade. It is sad that India had fallen into the same trap (of arms purchase).

You write that Prime Minister Modi has learned to deal with the American system.

I am very hopeful about Modi. He seems to be much more flexible than I had expected. Modi is a phenomena to me, in the sense that he was barred from entry to the U.S - unfairly — when he was Chief Minister [of Gujarat]. There is a possibility that Trump is not hidebound by any previous thoughts. He could be the man who could change things. I am hopeful. His appointment of Ms. Curtis..she has got this thing…terrorism figured out.