The cartoonist (100 Demon Dialogues) delves into her struggles with the mean/critical voice in her head and how she is confronting the lies it tells her about herself. She also shares about her dad, the author of The Highlander, and their complex relationship.

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 417, with my guest, Lucy Bellwood. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas, sexual dysfunction, and just simple, everyday negative thinking. Now, this show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. I … am not a doctor. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an astrophysicist. (Laughs) This is not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site for this show is, um, mentalpod.com. All the, uh, social media handles you wanna follow me at, is also mentalpod.

[00:00:52] I wanna kick things off with a happy moment filled out by a woman called "Agada (sp?) Cinco." And, she writes, "The first Sunday I stopped going to my parents' house for the weekly dinner. It feels great to get up on a Sunday, in a great mood, and not be anxious, ruining my day because I have to go to their house at a certain time." This is such a small example of what recovery looks like. But I was thinking last night, I was in my support group meeting, and I was thinking, so many of the problems that we have in our lives is us going to great lengths to avoid the feelings of living a life where we feel cornered by the circumstances in our lives. The things that we have control of, but that we take off the table. Tolerating things that are bad for us. Now, there are things that we can't control that we have to learn to surrender to. But whether or not you go to meet somebody you can't stand because you don’t wanna feel guilty about not meeting them … that has a huge effect, making that decision, that self-care, is so huge. And I know, because I … Once I started practicing that, my life fucking changed. I changed. It's amazing. And I believe that when we practice self-care, we then eventually start to experience self-love, or at the very least a degree decrease in self-hate. And then, life feels more abundant and more relaxed.

[00:02:55] I wanna give a shout-out to or sponsor, betterhelp.com. If you’ve never tried online therapy, I highly recommend it. I've been doing, um, online therapy with them for a couple of years now, and I love it. Just go to betterhelp.com/mental, and make sure you include the "/mental" so they know you came from the podcast. Just fill out a questionnaire and they’ll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor, and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:03:28] I forgot to mention, at, at this other survey, uh, any comments to make the podcast better, she writes, "Please add it to Google." I thought that the podcast was available on, um, is it Google Play or Google Podcast. I'm not sure exactly which, which one it is. But …

[00:03:48] This is a happy moment filled out by (chuckles) a guy who calls himself "Gordon," and then in parentheses, he puts, "but it's pronounced Fuckface." Gordon, you are already my best friend. And I just love anything that involves the word fuckface (chuckles). Was it one or two episodes again, uh, ago … (laughs) I think it was the one with, um, with Courtenay, uh, that we said something about Planet Fuckface, and then I was thinking, you know, it really should be, while there can be a Planet Fuckface, we need some place for fuckfaces here on Earth. And I'm thinking that should be Fuckface Island. Because all the fuckfaces should really have to be with each other. And I just love the idea of an island that you could fl-, fly over, and just go, "Look at all the fuckfaces." And then you realize they're dropping you off at Fuckface Island, because this whole time, you've been a fuckface and you didn’t even know it. I love the idea that somebody who is a first-time listener turned this podcast on … and their kids are in the car (chuckles). And after how many fuckfaces did they decide to turn the volume down … or find another podcast? And tonight, at dinner, they're gonna say "fuckface." And then that spouse will have to explain to the other spouse why their kid learned the word "fuckface" in the car today. Gordon writes—this is his happy moment—"I'm a comic book nerd. Wednesday is the day new comics come out. My local comics store has a live show on Facebook that I watch every Wednesday before going into the store to buy the new comics. I participate in the show via comments and I've come to know a lot of the people that work at the store. Today, they mentioned that they got a block of tickets for the Captain Marvel movie that they were selling at cost. They don’t make any money for selling the tickets. When I went in today, they told me to make to get my tickets so I could see the movie with the group. I realized they meant, 'Hey! We like you and you should come out to see a movie with us.' I have a very low opinion of myself, and I felt like, for just being me," (Paul rereads section of survey) "I have a very low opinion of myself, and I felt liked for just being me. They didn’t like me for buying stuff; they don't get commission anyway. They just liked the time we spend bullshitting at the store and online. I'm a people, not a burden to the world." I love that, man. I love that. That just made my day, reading this. That moment when we realize we are connected, that we're not outside the herd, as that mean voice in our brain tells us. And, by the way, this episode with Lucy, is so good at, at talking about that inner critic in our, in our brains. And then, any comments to make the podcast better, uh, Gordon writes, "It isn't realistic, but two episodes a week would be amazing. It would just kill Paul with crazy amount of extra work, and that's not worth it because we all love Paul. But, the idea does get me rock hard." And that, honestly, is why you're my new best friend, Gordon. (Pauses) Is it, is it, like, the garden variety (chuckles) of rock hard, or is it the rock hard where you can just feel a little bit of muscle movement in your butthole as well?

[00:07:56] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Lost Three." And it's pretty brief—she's straight, in her 40s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. She was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. She's been physically and emotionally abused. And then, any positive experiences with the abuser or abusers? In reference to, uh, her husband, she writes, "We have two amazing children together, and his family is very monetarily supportive of their extra-curricular activities, so I feel trapped for their sake." And that's why I wanted to, to read this, is this is one of the things that we do when we're in a relationship that we don’t like, and we're scared to leave, is, we come up with reasons to not leave, that put the responsibility on other people. You are not responsible for how your husband acts. And you can't change him. But you can change whether or not you are in a relationship, where your children are watching you be verbally abused and you taking it. You absorbing that toxicity. THEM absorbing that toxicity. THEM seeing a bad template for relationships and boundaries and communication and respect. You know, they'd probably be okay if they didn’t get to play squash. But, they got to see an adult stand up for themselves and say no. No more will I take this. And there's probably a good chance that their grandparents are still gonna pay for their squash, or whatever extra-curricular activity I'm assigning to them. Darkest thoughts: "I think about slipping Ativan in my husband's drinks to get his to leave me alone." Don't put it on him, cuz he will PROBABLY never change. Darkest secrets: "I found a porn stash in my parents' room when I was young and used to sneak in and look at it. It negatively impacted my view of how women should be treated and in my ability to have a healthy sexual relationship." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Being abused during sex. I feel shameful for these ideas." It's just a fantasy. If it's consenting partners, you have nothing to be ashamed of. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "To my husband, you are emotionally and verbally abusive. I will not tolerate it any longer, and it will end or this marriage will end." But to really say that, you have to be willing to give him consequences. Because if you say that, and then you tolerate it … he's gonna know the truth, which is that you're not willing to do that. What, if anything, do you wish for? "A happy, peaceful home for me and my girls." You can do that; they can have that, at least half the time. (Pauses) Have you shared these things with others? "I have not really shared the full extent of them." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Hopeless." Don’t feel hopeless. There is … You have more power in your life than you think you do. And you won't know how awesome it feels until you take that scary, scary step and reach for and use it.

[00:12:06] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by "Sabriel?" And she writes, "When I was 19, I was with a boyfriend that was amazingly understanding about the fact that I was still a virgin at the time and not quite ready to go all the way. After a full week of working each other into a frenzy, I finally gave into the idea of losing my virginity to him. It was amazing, yet at the point we finished, both of my calves decided to simultaneously go into Charlie horses. I told him that if this was gonna happen every time, I would just not ever have sex again." (Chuckles) That is fantastic. It's weird, to, how, how that moment of climax in sex, why we can't keep our feet still. Why it feels so good to just … point your toes (chuckles). I actually, what I do is I point my toes, and then I flutter my legs, like when a ballerina's in the air. And I make my … arms look very long and elegant (chuckles).

[00:13:17] I wanna give a shout-out to Third Love, who is supporting today's show. Using millions of real women's measurements, Third Love designs its bras with breast size and shape in mind for an impeccable fit and incredible feel. Just answer a few simple questions from Third Love's fit-finder quiz to find your perfect fit. Third Love offers double the number of sizes that most brands offer: cups A through H, bands up to 48. And with lightweight, memory foam cups, straps that won't slip, and tagless labels, you'll wanna wear these soft and breathable bras and underwear every day. And, thanks to the 100 percent fit guarantee, returns and exchanges are free and easy. My girlfriend bought a couple of their bras, and she loves them. She go the cotton ones, and she said that they're super comfortable, and she likes how they look. And, I like how they look. So, Third Love knows there's a perfect bra for everyone, so right now they are offering you guys 15 percent off your first order. Go to thirdlove.com/mental now to find your perfect fitting bra, and get 15 percent off your first purchase. That's thirdlove.com/mental for 15 percent off today. And, uh, I will always put the links to, um, stuff that we mention on the podcast

[00:14:49] And then, finally, uh, before we get to the interview, this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Manic Buddy." And, uh, she writes, "On day six in helping my fiancé fight his bipolar mania, I was so fucking annoyed with him and tired of being strong for the both of us. I decided to try a new approach. I hung up my anxious distress for a night and said, 'Fuck it,' and started drinking with him. I really needed a drink. I pretended to get wasted and started matching his mood and odd behaviors. It started to work. He became concerned about my behavior, asking if I was okay. I'd say it was better than crying, and I got to be his manic buddy instead of his anxious and caring spouse. Flash forward to now, 25 days later, and I am writing this awfulsome moment on my new MacBook Air, bought by you know who, as I listen to the loudest snoring ever, induced by a lovely cocktail of mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics. I don't really wanna give this beautiful computer back, but we have a wedding to pay for.

Intro

[00:16:59] Paul: I'm here with Lucy Bellwood, and we just met for the first time, a few, few minutes ago. Had a little bit of a chat out, uh, in the backyard. And, you are a, uh, graphic artist, uh, cartoonist. What's the, what's the term—

Lucy: Cartoonist.

Paul: Cartoonist.

Lucy: Yeah. People get nervous. It's fine; we won't bite. You can say cartoonist.

Paul: You … in the, in the past, you did stuff that you would consider yourself to be an, uh, or called yourself an adventure cartoonist. And, your most recent thing, you are writing about your emotions, which you hadn't really delved into that, that much before. And specifically, the critical voice in your head.

Lucy: Yeah, that's right. The, the new book that I have is, uh, the product of a 100-day drawing challenge. So, I illustrated a conversation between myself and my inner critic, every day for three and a half months. Different times of the day, different parts of the world—I was traveling a bunch. But, it's, it turns out something that, it's a character I first designed about 10 years ago? And, it's something I had experimented with throughout the years as a way to address artist block, basically, feeling stuck and not knowing where to go from there. And, doing it for three and a half months was really different from just doing it for, like, a 30-day drawing challenge. And it really changed my relationship with my inner critic and the way that I was dealing with all of that stuff. And I did it in public, which was an experience (chuckles).

Paul: Because you were posting these things as you were, as you were writing it out.

Lucy: Yeah, every day. And it's a weird thing to make your emotional development the subject of somebody else's internet consumption, if that makes sense.

Paul: Yes.

Lucy: I don't know if you'd know anything about that, running a podcast (laughs) for years (both laugh), about your emotional journeys and other people's, maybe just a little bit?

Paul: I'm more curious about what it's like to NOT have that outlet—

Lucy: Yeah. Anybody wanna call in (laughs)?

Paul: So, what did you, what did you find out?

Lucy: I … It's interesting. You know, people ask, like, "Well, after you did this, did you reach the state of zen? Like, do you not have an inner critic anymore?" And, I … think a lot of the time, when people address concepts of inner critics, they refer to it as something that is to be eradicated. It is a part of yourself that, in an ideal universe, you would never have writer's block. You would never deal with self-confidence issues. You would just be this, like, perfect embodied, furious avenging archangel of creativity all the time. And, that's not, that, that hasn’t held true for me. And I think it was, actually just a huge relief, to do a project where I understood that in hindsight, the days when I was at my lowest and the days when I was at my highest, are actually indistinguishable. The creative output is indistinguishable, right? I could draw on both days—

Paul: They're just different colors.

Lucy: Yeah. It's just that, one day I felt like I was the worst artist on earth. And another day, I felt like, "Everything that flows through my pen is genius!" And, it reminded me that it's not that we have to eradicate that voice. It's that we need to co-habit with it. It's like having a, sort of, shitty roommate (laughs).

Paul: That's such a great way of, of putting it. And, and … I also feel like that … that inner critic is the grain of sand in the oyster.

Lucy: YES! I—And lots of people have brought this up while discussing the book, too. That, you know, if you just blithely agreed that the first drawing you ever made was the best drawing you're ever gonna do, you know, not just the best one you could do at the moment, but ever in the future, you have no inner critic saying, "Hey, this could be better. You could be better." You know, reach more, go further. But it's contradictory, because there were days in, in the project where the critic was the one saying, um, "You're not doing enough, You should do more. You should do more. Like, reach higher." And then there were days when the critic was saying, you know, "Don't even bother. You can't do it. You're worthless. You should, you should just stop now." And, after a certain point, you start to question, "Well, wait a minute. Which is it?" You know? "You said I was the worst yesterday, and you're saying that, no, no, I should be able to do everything today. And can we just not just, reach some kind of compromise?"

Paul: And … and I feel like that, those are both sides of the same coin.

Lucy: Totally.

Paul: And it's a way to keep us stuck in self. I … What purpose, do you think, self-ob—And we were talking in the … backyard about the difference between self-refection and self-obsessions. And, and … how would you, um, categorize one versus the other?

Lucy: Boy! Well, I think something that came up in our discussion—I feel like you should call your garden the Green Room. I'm just gonna put it out there, because that's, like, it's grass. Anyway … southern California, those, so, maybe not (laughs). Increasingly less green. But the difference betwe—And I really love that you asked that question, because I think that's at the crux of some much the tension in my whole career is, is this too self-indulgent or is this process of self-discovery actually valuable for other people. And, uh, is it actually also valuable for me to be reminded that other people are going through this as well? And that was a big part that I didn’t really anticipate about sharing, getting vulnerable online … means that other people get vulnerable, too. And I think, this is one of the strengths of this show, is that you are so giving of yourself as a host, that your guests understand that there is a reciprocal space here. And they're not being asked by someone, you know, to just super vulnerable and not necessarily know if they're gonna be held in a space that is safe. And, every time we show our bellies to another person, um, there is, I think an art to sharing the challenges that we're going through. And it's not that that's self-obsession. There's also, like, dumping. There's you know, "Here's all my emotional stuff! And, like, deal with it!" And the internet can be dangerous for that, because it's really easy to gorge.

Paul: And, it, it is. And to forget that. Part of our job, as, uh, an artist—I, I don't consider this art, but I'm thinking more of, you know, stand-up, stuff like, stuff like that. Part of, in my opinion, the, the job of an artist, is to make your ideas accessible so that more people can enjoy them. And so, how do you find that line between, uh, originality and accessibility? You know, to, to make it mentally intriguing, so that everything isn't just handed, uh, to, to that person in a, um, you know, ham-fisted kind of way. And the other thing that occurred to me as you were talking about that is, it seems like so often, we get so preoccupied with the artistic quality of something that we're creating, and we forget about one of the byproducts of it, which is something you're experiencing as you tour around, which is human connection. And—

Lucy: Absolutely.

Paul:— meaning. Talk, talk about that, if you …

Lucy: So, I mean, this, this project required a lot of self-reflection, because, you know, it was a daily check-in; it was a mindfulness practice. And we talk about creative practice as this thing, but I, I really want … I wanted at the outset of doing this—I had done one 100-day project before, but it wasn’t as personal. And, I found that doing something every day really is the definition of a practice, that you show up for it, over and over and over again, even when you don't feel like doing it. And, getting to do that in front of other people gives you the opportunity to … see their response. And having that live feedback, in some cases, is really damaging because you just need to, like, stay the course with your project. And, having immediate feedback can be distracting or it can be intimidating. But what I found was that every time I wrote an entry … that delved into—to my mind, there are two levels of vulnerability as a creator. There's, um, easy vulnerability, where you can say things that you're fairly certain are true about the human condition. I think this is probably true of comedy and performance, too. That you can say stuff that's accessible to a wide, wide range of people. But if it's too accessible, it loses the personal. And if you watch a creator or performer do that, there is this instant thing that happens, this glue that binds people together. And, that was what I was seeing day after day, was that I would share these entries, and it was heady across the board, sharing something and having a lot of people pile on and seeing this gathering momentum on this thing.

Paul: Heady, in what way?

Lucy: That people were paying attention. And more and more people were paying attention. My follower count grew really substantially, especially on Instagram, over the course of the project. And it was a thing, a capital "T" thing, that people were looking forward to reading. But, beyond that, people were sharing their own reciprocal stories. It was like, if I opened up, they opened up. And, it felt like trust fall every time I would come up to an entry where some days, you know, I didn't have it in me to do the easier entry. And the easier entries are still relatable. You, they can be about multitasking or social media or blah blah. And those are things that you can say, this is vulnerable, but it's not like …

Paul: Yes, this is, this is a—

Lucy: It's not the thing that really makes me squirm.

Paul: Right. Share some of the things that make you squirm.

Lucy: So, the entries that people love the most … People voted for, you know, their top entries and, um … They were never—someone asked me what my favorite entry was. And, I had drawn, when I was … maybe ha-, um, not halfway. A third of the way into the project? I went home to California. I live in Portland, Oregon now, and I were down to Ojai, where my parents live. And, my folks are, uh, considerably older than a lot of other people's parents. Certainly my dad is; he just turned 79, and I'm 29. So, you know, most of my friends, their grandparents are that age. And I've known my whole life that I'm going to lose him, sooner than everybody else. You know, almost everybody else. And, that trip home was, there was a lot of stuff we're doing to the house to try and make it, uh, reverse-mortgage ready. We're trying to qualify so my parents can have a loan to live on and, like, retire on, cuz their both writers. And their crazy freelance life is, you know, normal to me. And it's probably—

Paul: And your dad wrote "The Highlander."

Lucy: He did write "Highlander," yes. That was his one, uh, his one big hit. But he had a, a fascinating, storied history. And he's somebody that, as I have gotten older, I've had to grapple. I mean, my whole life, I've had a very loving and close relationship with him. And he had a father who did not approve of his decision to leave England and go and become an actor in New York. Hard care. And they fell out intensely over it. And the story he told me a lot when I was growing up was that his dad, uh, reconciled with him on his deathbed, after they had, like, threatened, you know, disowning, like all of this stuff. And, when his father was dying, he said, he started crying one day when my dad was in the room. And, Dad said, you know, "What's going on?" And he said, "I don't know what to do now. You know, my whole life I've done what was expected of me. I fought in the war, I had this job as an in-,"—I think he worked in insurance—"I never got to do what I wanted to do. And I was jealous, because you did it."

Paul: Wow!

Lucy: "And I took it out on you, and I'm sorry."

Paul: WHAT?!?!

Lucy: And, like, BOOM! You know, like, that's … And he died! Like, I dunno, week later. And it just makes me so mad. I mean, I'm so glad they had that conversation. But how fucking British is that, that he waited until he was dying (Paul laughs). Ugh!

Paul: Did he have his foot on the neck of a native, and he said that? That's the only way it could have been more …

Lucy: God, yeah. If he was manifesting some horrible aspect of colonialism at the same time. Ugh! And, actually, he was just, like, was holding on and holding on. And one of the nursing staff took my dad aside and actually said, "You know, sometimes men of this generation, they need to be given permission to go." And so my dad went in and said to him, "You know, it's okay. You can go now. We're gonna be all right." And then he died (laughs), like, 20 minutes later. And, that was a story my dad told me a lot when I was growing up. And it really underscores why he has been so unfailingly supportive to me my whole life, you know? Any, and creative endeavor that I wanted to do, he's been right there. And it's been so hard to get older and reconcile the fact that he's also an addict, you know? He's also flawed. And, he's also declining now. This thing that I have been clenching my fists, you know, just, like, bracing for impact from the age at which I could understand death, is coming for me. And all of the bracing in the world doesn’t stop that from hurting. It doesn’t stop it from happening. And so, there's an entry in the book—I can't remember what number it is—that I went home and … It was really a shock because it was the first time I had really seen that fact that he was starting to take a downturn. And, the demon is saying, "I, I went for a walk to clear my head—" there's a nature preserve pretty close to our house in a river bottom. And there's all of these old vineyards stakes in there from where all these grapes used to grow. And, um, I snapped a photo, and I drew this little character, my inner critic, sitting on one of the vineyard stakes. And both of us are turned away from the camera, looking at the mountains. And I feel like most of the entries where I'm getting into this stuff that is actually interesting to say, the ones that are really, really deeply difficult,, um, I'm never looking at the camera (laughs). I'm never looking at the viewer. It's always, like, I can't physically draw my facial expression while I share this. And the demon is saying, "It will never be what it was before." And, I'm saying, "That doesn't mean we can't be here for what it is now." And that's been the hardest thing to try and remind myself of. I'm really attached to home. I'm a big permanence junkie. I do not want things to change. I don't want to let go of the things that I love. And, somebody said, "You know, this book was like therapy for you, in some ways." And I said, "Yeah. You know, it's true." And it's not that I've reached a state where I've eradicated my inner critic. It's almost like I spent 100 days talking back to this part of myself that you were asking what purpose that serves. And I don't necess—You could say it's evolution. In some ways, it's this voice that's goading us to, to do more, be better. But on the other side of that is that, that inner critic is the small, scared part of ourselves that is afraid. It's just afraid. And, to be kind to ourselves is, like, the greatest task of life, right? We can be compassionate to other people at the drop of a hat. It's not hard for most people. And, so, divorcing that voice and creating a separate entity for it, and then having that entity lash out or act out or, you know, it's a toddler, right? It's just angry and petulant and (chuckles) contradictory. And, um, it just needs to be held and told it's okay. And I find that, that voice has not gone away, you know? It's still just as loud. But there have been times—I'm, I'm on a book tour right know. And, you know, I've been traveling for two months. And there have been nights where I'm just sobbing. You know, it's too much. I'm far away from home, I'm worried about my dad, I shouldn't be on the road doing this indulgent this. I should be taking care of him. I'm an only child, too, so, like, the, the pressure is on. And … I find myself talking to myself, like I'm that inner critic from my book. And, you know, literally saying out loud, like, "I know that you're scared. I know this is a lot." And the feeling in those moments is, like, I can't do this. I can't do this alone. And the lesson of the project was, other people are doing this, too, every day, especially with parents. Like, most everybody's got parents stuff (laughs).

Paul: Yeah.

Lucy: And, uh … Posting these entries—Every time I'd post one that was too real for me, those were the ones that people responded to the most.

Paul: That's what I always tell guests, when they, we wrap up and, and they're, like, "Oh, god, that part where I talked about—" And I would say, "The more difficult it is to talk about, the more valuable it is to people who hear it."

Lucy: Yeah. That's undoubtedly true. And it still feels scary.

Paul: It's so scary.

Lucy: Every time! And I was saying in the car on the drive over here, like, "I wish there were a point in life where doing those ri-, like, that is what it means to be human, is to keep taking those risks and keep being a feeling person in the world. And it's something that I, I take as a huge comfort that, you know … My dad gave me that gift. And, even if he is at a point where I need to be the one giving that gift to him, you know, if I need to be the one taking care of him, I'm living it every day. Like, it's a part of me and who I am. And, it doesn’t stop it from hurting, but it means that that's the work that I'm supposed to be doing, you know? Like, that's the full manifestation of … what his dad was trying to pass onto him, you know, and that he did a slightly better job of passing on to me, cuz he didn’t tell me when he was dying. He, like, got around to it from day one. And … Yeah, that's … Walking into that pain is really—I, it's nice to talk about him, cuz I just did a big interview. And, um, realized that I talked a lot about my mom and what she's given for me, and that's also huge. Like, she trained as a therapist, you know. She is really the root of all of the emotional intelligence stuff that came into my life. But I read this huge interview, I had talked to this guy for, like, an hour and a half, and I did not mention my dad. And I realized that it was because, you know, it hurts too much right now. And it's, um, touchy to get into. But seeing all those other people echoing and saying, "Hey! This is us. This is us. We relate to this." And seeing people relate for each other. Like, in those comment threads, people would chime in—I'm sure you get this, too, that you don't even have to be present in the conversation. It's, like, you're enabling, you're creating a space for people to say, "I'm having this really rough experience," and for other people who are not you to come in and say, "We hear you. This is us as well, like, we're all here."

Paul: Yeah. It, it, uh, I just had this image in my mind of, like, you lost in the woods. And then all of a sudden, you scream, "I'm lost," and you hear nine other voice going, "Me, too!" (Both laugh). And all of a sudden, you're like—

Lucy: I love that! That's exactly it, yeah.

Paul: —"Well, maybe I'm just in a heavily-wooded area." And I'm, and I'm—

Lucy: Visibility is poor.

Paul: Yeah. But … those moments, to me, are, I think, if we get to have a deathbed moment—

Lucy: Yeah.

Paul:—those are moments that I know I will cherish. And I will say that was not a waste of time. That was something genetically in me being … tapped into. And that, if there is any type of higher power or greater good or universal connection between humans, that, to me, you know, the, the feeling of meaning, purpose, and connection is, to me, uh, the only thing that can really, truly quiet my mind and make me feel like I can just be present in the moment, not question who I am, what worth I have, where I'm gonna be in five years from now, that the crystal ball is broken. And meaning is the, for me, the only thing that keeps me from wanting to constantly reach for it. But, meaning involves taking chances and having difficult conversations. And sometimes, making ugly mistakes, you know. Maybe revealing too much to somebody that's not safe to talk to. Or, you know, for me, maybe, uh, uh, crossing somebody's boundary and, and what I share with them. Or doing it at an inappropriate time. Those are … Those are the moments that are hard to look back at and say, "Well, I guess that is a part of the, being emotionally open and vulnerable." Is sometimes, there are experiences that are, aren't' ideal. But you can't do anything perfectly.

Lucy: No. And, and that's also something we're talking about in the car over here (chuckles) of, uh, like, having this standard, this purity Olympics of, like, "Surely out there, there is some person who has never made a mistake, who's never crossed a boundary, who's never in, like …" We've all screwed up. It's … My mom tells a story about a, a child, you know, getting, uh, some math wrong while working with their parents and their parents saying, "That's great! You're a kid. It's your job to make mistakes." And, I honestly think that it's kind of our job, being human, to make mistakes, cuz that is actually how we learn! If you get it right the first time—Again, if you do a drawing and you're, like, "This is a perfect drawing. Michelangelo could not exceed this," you know, "Everything is fine. I'm done," that's gonna be a pretty boring life. And you're not gonna be in the process of working through other stuff and, you know, connecting things.

Paul: Who is it, somebody just told me recently that their, their mother had a … little sign on their piano that said, "If you don't make any mistakes today, it means that you haven't tried anything new." And I thought, "Wow! That is such, such a great saying."

Lucy: Yeah.

Paul: That is such a great saying. And as you were talking about the, having those conversations, um, and, you know, the obsession of wanting things to … have artistic excellence, and forgetting about the byproduct of meaning and purpose and stuff like that, it occurred to me that somebody who isn't creative for a living can still have creativity in a conversation they strike up with somebody at a coffee shop—

Lucy: Absolutely!

Paul: —while in line. They can, um, there are moments all throughout the day where they can get that byproduct that we search for in our art, which is connection and meaning and helping—

Lucy: And it's really just a conduit; it's a tool—

Paul: It, is—

Lucy: —right? And music is tool. I've been having a lot of envy recently, actually, of my musician friends, because I've talked to them about being on tour in this way for multiple months, is not something that many cartoonists do. Most cartoonists are introverts, and, like, I'm kind of a fake extrovert, so I like this part, and I like people. And I've talked to so many musicians because they know what being on tour is like—

Paul: It is a GRIND!

Lucy: It so is! And friends of mine who do not know that, they hear "tour," and they think stadium, show, limousine, caviar, whatever. Musician friends are like, "Do you need a place to stay? Can I buy you dinner?" You know. "How are you holding up?"

Paul: "Do you need some vegetables?"

Lucy: Right! Yes! God, please (laughs)!

Paul: It is so hard to, to eat healthy on the road—

Lucy: I'm trying this time—

Paul: —or even remotely healthy.

Lucy: My god, it's hard. Yeah—

Paul: it's so hard.

Lucy: It's just burgers all the way down. And, you know ,you're always, like, drained after an event, and you desperately need to eat something. And you're just, like, "Calories, whatever's here. Get it in me." But, yeah, I, the, the thing about talking to musicians is that I'm also really, like, experiencing music, and I was just at an event in New York, and, um, Amanda Palmer was performing as part of this, like, literary variety evening. And the theme of the event was that all the performers had to take a risk on stage. And for the musical guests, that meant they had to, a, perform a cover song, and try to get the whole crowd to sing along. And she had them turn off all the lights, and she played "Hallelujah," and had everybody sing. And it was, like, I couldn’t even open my mouth before I was just sobbing and, like, sitting in the dark, crying with all of these strangers. And it was two notes on the piano. And, I had this moment of, like, "God! Music really is the best thing for that." Like, I have not read a comic ever that has caused me to burst into tears that fast. Or a book, or a movie, you know. Like, there's something about it. And that's the beauty of it, is that every one of those conversational, connective forms has a different way of doing it. With a book, it's like this crazy time delay, where you write a thing, and then a year later it comes out. But then someone might read it 25 years in the future, and, like, their kid is gonna read it, but then grow up and read it again and get something new out of it, and it's asynchronous. And … all of it is just—I dunno. I'm having a big moment of, like … BEING PEOPLE IN THE WORLD IS THE THING (laughs)!

Paul: My image of what it would be like in the future if I ever wrote a book, is that I would be at a used bookstore as somebody came in and tried to sell it, but the person behind the counter refused to buy it.

Lucy: (Laughs) Because then, then they pointed to a shelf of, like, 60 copies that were already there (both laugh). Not because people had read them, but on remainder. They're like, "Oh, god. They've all got the black dot on the spine."

Paul: Give me some other moments that were, that were hard for you to, um …

Lucy: *Sighs* The … I think—

Paul: Is, is your dad a recovered addict, or is he still kind of …? Or, or, would you rather not discuss that?

Lucy: No, I can discuss it. It's something he's been very open with me about. He has a, I believe—this is something I also feel like I've struggled with because, um, I know there are umpteen resources for children of addicts. I have never tapped into them, because I think, probably because of denial, honestly, growing up and not really wanting to say, like, he's an addict. The thing that, that strikes me as so frustrating is that, to my mind, uh, addict is, like, violent, you know, binges, and, like, getting black-out drunk and puking on the carpet, and, like, being irresponsible and, um, abusive. And, like, my dad is not that person. I love him very dearly. He's very close. You know, he's very supportive. And it's something I've come back to again and again, is, like, how can you come from a loving, supportive family, and still have this much pain? And, it's something—Honestly, when I reached out to you, that I was, like, "I have imposter syndrome about not … having enough baggage to go on this show. Is that gonna be a problem?" And then I started thinking about it for two seconds and was, like, "You know. It's the weird thing about it, is that you could be loved and supported your whole childhood, and, like … nobody comes out alive (laughs)."

Paul: Let me just tell you, what you just shouted in the forest, there's 5,000 other people going, "Me, too." I've heard that so many times—

Lucy: I imagine that you had. That was the thing that brought me up short, that I was, like, "I bet he hears that every week,—"

Paul: I do.

Lucy: —"even from people who are coming in here with, like, huge stories of loss and trauma."

Paul: Yes. And I have, and I have told, uh, myself that before as well. "What do I have to complain about?" But, um, it's, it's not … the cause of the, the car crash; it's how do we bandage up. How do we, how do we, uh, get into physical therapy so we can walk as, as best we can. I think I've really weighed this down with metaphors. I should just let myself out.

Lucy: (Laughs) You're in a car crash with a physical therapist. They get out okay. Yeah.

Paul: You know … From what I know, uh, about addiction, being a recovering addict, uh, alcoholic myself, um, just some guesses at things, because I know they're a common effects that the addict can have on the child, um, when there isn't violence, when they're, you know, etcetera, etcetera. All the classic ones aren’t being checked—

Lucy: No, there's this subtle emotional damage, right, or not-so-subtle emotional damage.

Paul: It's, it's the person, the parent, kind of being in their head a lot, and the child feeling, um … There's just a lack of consistency in that parent being fully present with the, with the child.

Lucy: Or of being fully responsive, you know, of saying, like, "I would do anything for you." And then, you're saying, "All right. I need you to stop smoking cigarettes, because, like, it's gonna kill you," and them saying, "Except that (laughs)!"

Paul: Anything else.

Lucy: Yeah. Or, you know, "I'll try," and then lying. And, the rough thing … I mean, this is both rough and not rough, is that I can understand it, from a certain perspective. I get that he is grappling with, you know, all kinds of stuff. He's been very open with me about being hooked on harder stuff before I was born, flirting with alcoholism. He has sort of an addictive personality. It's not so much that it's just any one thing. But my young life, I didn’t know my dad smoked cigarettes until I turned eight. And, I found out, and it was, like, right at that age where morality is super black and white. And, I could not reconcile this thing that I knew, like, "Smoking cigarettes is bad. Therefore, people who smoke cigarettes are bad people. That's my dad, who is a good person because he's my dad, smoking a cigarette. I don't know what that means."

Paul: That blew your little mind.

Lucy: Yeah. I just exploded. I went to pieces. And then, from then on, like every year, there was the same conversation, of "You need to stop doing this. If I tell you enough, if I am crying enough, if I show you how much it hurts me, if I," you know, if I, if I. I got friends—god, I found some heartbreaking shit at home, of just contracts that I made him sign. Like, petitions that I got friends at school to sign. I got his bandmates to sign—you know, just all these people in our tight-knit little community. And I remember one of his adult friends saying to me rather cavalierly at a, a party we were at when I was maybe 11 or 12, "He's never gonna quit." And I burst into tears and had to leave the room. Like, I couldn’t keep it together, because it felt so callous. It was, like, I understand where he was coming from, you know. I understand that he was trying to say, this is nothing to do with you. But, it has always felt like something to do with me, because when you're a kid, it's scary. And, if it's not under your control, you know, if, if that behavior is continuing … it must be, it cannot be because your parent is a fallible point. That's not acceptable. It has to be your fault. And URGH! You can know that intellectually, but boy, the emotional stuff that's like, scraping congealed bacon grease of the sole. I dunno (laughs).

Paul: It's kinda like … you know, the subtext of wha-, of what you were asking from your dad was, "I need you to be in my life as long as possible." And that guy was saying to you, "He doesn't care."

Lucy: No! And, you know, and his time was already limited. And, it's coming back around. He's got emphysema, you know. It's, like, this is the thing that is damaging him, and he just won't stop. And, I, I met with a friend once who, um, was a grown-up friend and I was probably, I dunno, maybe 17. No, older than, 20 maybe, when we had this conversation. And she asked me about my dad and his smoking. And I said, "Well, you know, he's trying to quit right now. And his (unintelligible)." She said, "Could you still over him if he never quit?" And I started saying something and I blathered for a little bit, and she said, "No, I'm gonna ask you again. Could you still love him, if he never stopped smoking?" And I think about that all the time. And I am working on it (laughs). It's not perfect. And, it just felt like somebody saying, you know … I don't care, that this is more important to me than you. And, it throws everything else into question, you know. I'm sure you've grappled with this, that, like, if someone says I am here for you 100 percent, I will never leave you … and then is, like, just gonna, you know, really quick slope off and do this thing. Never around you, because I'm ashamed of it. And I know he's talked to me intermittently, but still about the fear of letting me down, the fear of failure. And it led me to be absurdly straight-laced in high school, which is something I only came to later, that I was, like, trying to prove to him, look how easy it is, to now smoke, to not drink, to not, you know, to follow the rules. And, it wasn't, you know, leading by example didn't work, doing all this other stuff didn't work. And, one of the things that this book kind of was … was me as an adult, or what passes for an adult, right, and being a human being (both laugh)—which I'm rapidly discovering is nothing different than being a child, but you have to pay more bills—was telling those things to myself, was acknowledging that I was not going to get the thing that I wanted from him, but he had given me the tools to give it to myself.

Paul: Wow! That's pretty profound.

Lucy: I don't know that I've ever put it quite like that before, honestly. But, I think that's, that's kind of the long and the short of it, is, like, this book is my life raft for, your parents are not going to be here one day. And, like, you need to know … Because we, we do this all the time, you know. I've ta-, I talked with my therapist about this, and we were talking about—I think, actually that moment, when I found out my dad smoked, and she said, "Was there anything in that moment that an adult could have said to you that would have made it okay?" And, you know, I thought about it and waffled about this and that, and, um, then she said, "Well, how 'bout, could you say that to yourself?" Because a lot of the time, even as adults, we're waiting, as children, for someone else to come along and tell us the thing that we want to hear with all of our being.

Paul: Or, the thing we want to experience.

Lucy: Yes! Or to give us the, yeah—

Paul: Some feeling that we think will bring us peace and closure, and then we won't experience any type of anxiety—

Lucy: Ever again!

Paul: —disappointment or pain again. And that, that is the, uh, the thing that I think drives us all crazy. As you were sharing that about your dad, having given you that, to be able to do it for yourself, it reminds me of the, the thing that, you know, you could feed somebody fish or you can teach them how to fish. And that's kind of, like your dad tried to emulate self-love as best as somebody with demons that he had, could. And I could tell you, as an addict, addiction is bigger than any one human being. And whether it's cigarettes or wha-, whatever—and I'm not making excuses, um, for your dad, but I understand what it's like to, to be an addict who intellectually knows one thing, but emotionally it's just a field of, of, of landmines that is so terrifying to, to navigate, that … it's like there … it's a Jekyll and Hyde brain—

Lucy: Oh, absolutely!

Paul:—and then it's, it's so difficult, um … There's something else that … Self-love … Oh, fuck! It's right on the tip of my, tip of my brain.

Lucy: Jekyll and Hyde, mind field, uh, addiction being bigger than everything else—

Paul: Oh. I experienced it with my dad growing up, when I was, uh, 15. He … learned that I had been getting high. And I got busted smoking weed before the, on the morning of the first day of school sophomore year, before the first class. And, um, he told me it was the saddest day of his life, except for the day that his father died.

Lucy: WOAH!

Paul: And I said, "I'll quit smoking pot, if you quit smoking cigarettes." And he said, "Okay." And, I was, six months later, I was keeping up my end of the bargain, and I was on my way to a concert with my neighbor. And, he handed me a joint, and I said, "No, thanks." And he said, "Oh, are you still doing that thing with your dad?" And I said, "Yeah." And he laughed. And I said, "Why are you laughing?" He said, "Your dad is on the side of your house every night, smoking after dinner." And I said, "Give me that, give me that joint. Give me that beer—"

Lucy: Light it up!

Paul: And, and my, my dad did not make me an addict. I understand what it is like to have demons and feel like you are so uncomfortable in your skin, and this thing that you're addicted to is the closest thing to a life raft that you can find in that moment—

Lucy: It's just coping, coping, coping, coping. Yeah.

Paul: And you intellectually know that it's not a true life raft, that there is some other type of help. But it feels like you are going to just suffocate, if you don’t take this thing right now. But, that doesn't make it any easier on that little child brain—

Lucy: BUT, I mean, I will that talking to people who have been through it themselves, you know, close friends of mine who have quit smoke … have said, you know, "I still crave cigarettes every day. And I had that every same experience of, like, actively being in my own brain, going, 'What are you doing? What are doing? Stop lighting that cigarette!' you know. And just hating myself and doing it anyway." And … Again, it's that thing, we're, like, "That should not be a comfort!" It's kind of a comfort. Same with, you know, encountering, um, addiction literature—which I haven't even scratched the surface of, because it feels like a huge process of acceptance to kind of self-identify and say, you know, "Okay! This is an identity that my dad has. This is, like, a thing that is really impacting my life. And I bet you, it's gonna be that thing of shouting in the woods—" I'm stealing that metaphor, that's so great. Because, like, there are so many other people who have dealt with this. And … to talk to other people and say, "Oh, I thought it was just me." One of the biggest compliments I received about this book was that, um, I, I was making it for me, you know. So adults were reading it, mostly people online. But someone got a copy, and before they could read it, their kid stole it, this nine-year-old girl. Took it out of the room, read it in one sitting, brought it back in, and looked at her parent and said, "I know that voice. I didn't think anybody else had that." And it's, like, as adults, we know intellectually—maybe not emotionally—that other people have demons, right. We kind of grasp that. And I forgot that, you know, when you're a kid, you don’t know. You have no idea who else around you is grappling with that stuff.

Paul: You certainly don’t think your, your parents have dark, dark thoughts or battles that, that, uh … yeah. [00:56:50]

Lucy: And, I had a really, uh, really formative experience in high school, when I … we, we had, um, our theater department would have these little, like, counsels. We would get together and have circles, you know, with a talking stick, and, like, it would be this safe space to, you know, commune about our feelings. Cuz it was the theater department, and we were very touchy-feely people. And, we were sitting around a bonfire one night, and there was a new girl who had come to the school, and she—I was hardcore tomboy, sort of hippie child. And she was very, um, she'd come from LA, she was super girly, you know, was in the theater department, but was new, and I was having all of these judgey, super, like, internalized misogyny thoughts about, like, "Who is this bitch coming in here [disgruntled muttering]." And as we were going around the circle, I was disobeying the first rule, which is, you know, you speak from the heart and your listen from the heart. And I wasn't listening and I was just kind of being in my thoughts. And the talking stick got to her, and she just laid it out there and said, "I'm so grateful that you guys made this space for me to come and join you. I know I'm new here. It's been really scary being at this school. I don't know anybody here, and I felt so lonely and judged." And she started crying. And I was just sitting there, like, "Lucy Bellwood, you never judge anybody again in your life." You know, like, "You remember this moment for the rest of your days, because that is what is going for everybody, all the time." And, we're so caught up worrying about what other people think of us, we don't stop and think that maybe they're experiencing the same thing.

Paul: Yeah. That self-, that self-obsession—

Lucy: That's self-obsession, right? That's not self-reflection (laughs)! That's it.

Paul: And, and I think that's wh-, what we miss out on when we don't take that risk and we don't open up in a support group, or express it through art or call up a, a close friend. Or, the first hurdle, which, to me, is realizing that we mistake that inner critic for a sense of discipline; it's not. Nobody has ever shamed themselves into being the person they want to be or the artist they wanna be. It is not, that is not the, the way to get there. But, for the first four-fifths of my life, I thought that that was the road to success, was to listen to the mean voice—

Lucy: Yeah. And that, ag-, you know, and it's dangerous. I hear people talk about grit, you know, like, grit is the thing that's gonna get you through. And, I like resilience a lot more—

Paul: Resilience.

Lucy: That feels a lot more …

Paul: Passion's a good one.

Lucy: Yeah! Absolutely. (Laughs)

Paul: But, but knowing when to let go of something and stop fighting is, there's a bravery in that. There's an intelligence in, in that. And, that doesn't mean the same thing as giving up.

Lucy: No. Permission is so different from abandonment, right, and saying, "I'm giving myself permission. I'm making a conscious choice to take the day off, to take a vacation, you know? To not post something on social media. To trust that if I quit sharing for five minutes (chuckles), people will still be there, and they will still care when you come back." God, that's hard.

Paul: And, I, I think of people, um, who enter into a profession with hopes of some type of outcome, and then that doesn't happen. And so, they stop pursuing that, but they think that's it's a failure, and it's only until years later that they find there was something that they learned in that "failure" that they drew upon later in their lives, which just, to me, points out another fallacy of the, the critical voice in our head that tells us, it's all in black and white thinking. It's failure or accolades. It's a, a, a waste of time, or it's the only thing that matters.

Lucy: YEAH! False dichotomies, and, like, zero-sum thinking, and all of this stuff …

Paul: And I think that's what future-tripping and ruminating on the past. That's, that's its home turf, is that kind of thinking, and only in the present moment can we … have those moments of, of clarity. And I think it's because it sounds super woo woo. But, because that love and that connection is flowing through us, and it, there is a calming effect to it that, that, I think, the brain just starts spinning a little slower, and a different part of the, of the body or central nervous system or something is allowed to tap into—much like meditation, where the brain winds down and the, the deeper thoughts are in there. I feel like, things that are of a more spiritual and meaningful nature are there in our brain or our soul or whatever. But, we have to bring it into the present moment and unwind to the point where we can hear it.

Lucy: Yeah. Absolutely. And, and making space to listen is … so hard, especially now, you know. And we're, we have noisy, noisy brains all the time. There's something that you said that—

Paul: And wanting to shame other people, I think, is another impulse—

Lucy: To avoid doing it, yeah.

Paul: To avoid feeling what we wanna fell. When I find myself wanting to, uh, mock or shame people for their political beliefs on Twitter, I now know that that is a … warning sign for me that something is going on inside me that I don't like. And that I'm projecting my own self-hatred or fear onto another person—which doesn't mean I shouldn’t disagree with that person, but the manner in which I handle that, that emotion. And those, to me, are the gifts of self-reflection rather than self-obsession.

Lucy: Yeah. And that, being connected to that, sort of slowing of the, of the widening dire or whatever is, um, being part of something that … It's like that anxiety about reaching doesn’t go away, you know, that anxiety about walking into a scary situation. The feeling that we have when we're young children is that the world is going to end if I go back to this place that hurts. And that's because when you're a kid, you know, the stakes are pretty high; you're small and vulnerable, and if evolution been kind to us, we are very, you know, small and squishy for a long time. And, uh, I mean this is my brand of woo, is, like, I think, you know, young, young, young trauma is, is a thing that stays with you for the rest of your life. Birth trauma and childhood trauma, like … that sticks around and that imprints on who you are as a person. And, something that I heard a lot about this project, is that people were saying, "Wow. This is really uncommon." And I was like, "Really? Cuz I think everyone's kind of messed up in this way." And they said, "No, no, no. Not that. The fact that you see this thing that hurts and you walk into it. You don't walk around it. You don't say, like, 'La, la, la! I'm gonna go do something else now.'" I've done my fair share of that. Do I spend day doing that now, still? Of course! Like, I'm not in this weird state of zen acceptance—

Paul: That's what Netflix is for.

Lucy: Absolutely! And knitting and running and talking to friends and checking Twitter and doing everything else … but feeling your feelings. But, the, the thing that I am finding is that, when you have that rising feeling of panic, right—for you maybe it's, like, anger and wanting to lash out, you know. For me, it's like I start to get really, uh, agitated. My stomach feels upset. And I'm starting to notice … It's a noticing; again, self-reflection, mindfulness, and thinking, "Okay. I can tell that I'm having this panic response. And it's probably because I feel like there's a tiger and that I'm gonna get eaten and, you know, I'm gonna die, the world is gonna end. But, I know—

Paul: And, to be fair, you live in a zoo, so that is always a possibility.

Lucy: Absolutely. It's one of the hazards of being an adventure cartoonist, is that I WILL go over that waterfall. I WILL get smashed on the rocks.

Paul: WHY you chose to sublet that place in the lion cage is beyond me.

Lucy: It was cheap! It was cheap. The rent was right. So, in that moment, you're learning over and over and over again, it's the trust fall. And, you're saying, "Okay, there's still gonna be that moment of *gasp!*" Like, right, you know, when you get in the cold pool and you do whatever. And, that's healthy; that's self-preservation. And it's knowing the difference between—like, you were saying, misjudging and, like, over-sharing with someone who's maybe not safe to talk to. Or, like, overstepping a boundary. It's, it's knowing the difference between risk-chasing to try and scratch an itch, and … just, like, that gentle, sort of opening in a moment. And … it means that I don’t feel zen per se, but I trust more. And … it still hurts. It maybe hurts more (laughs). But it beats the alternative of clinging to this safe, little box of controlled anxiety and just letting rule everything around me.

Paul: Wh-, which is … really not safe, because, because it's painful.

Lucy: Yeah. And it's brittle and it shatters. And then, suddenly, you're, like, naked baby bird on the ground. And there's cats and cars and joggers and god knows what else.

Paul: Yes. I forgot to show you the little bird nest and the, uh, on top of the light on the, on the back porch.

Lucy: Oh, they like it there cuz it's warm.

Paul: They're very … yeah, it's very cute. Share another, uh, thing that was, uh, painful excavation.

Lucy: Woo! To do with the project?

Paul: Yeah. And did we finish up what, what the last one was that you shared? It was the smoking, right?

Lucy: Yeah, the smoking thing. I was trying to, I, I was trying to think of, like, a particular entry in the project that I could tie it back to. But that's, I mean, that's just something that I've been grappling with. And it's, it's interesting that this project happened, really at the start of this downward turn in my dad's health. And, it's funny that that entry, actually, about it will never be what it was before. So, my family lives in Ojai, and over Christmas, long after I had drawn that comic, we were totally encircled by the Thomas Fire, and, like, I spent, you know, my, my Christmas break, uh, evacuated with my parents and our two geriatric cats. Like, travelling all over California, trying to escape these fires. And, um, I really—When we moved, when I was two and a half, uh, I remember it. And, it was like my whole world was being dismantled. And when we moved to the new house, uh, I became really set in my ways about, everything had to stay the same. You know, it was like, I did not want any more change. And, so I wrote, "No, my house. Go away," on all the doors, when I could hold a pencil. And, when my parents were thinking about building an addition onto the house that would have meant chopping down MY tree, that I had decided was MY private tree, I opened the cabinet, probably when I was six or seven, and looked at the blueprints and thought to myself, "If I set fire to these, they will not take my tree away."

Paul: WOW!

Lucy: You know, like, I could stop this from happening. Which, of course, I mean—Well, actually, I dunno. They were hand-drafted blueprints, so maybe (laughs).

Paul: So, that means you started the Thomas fire.

Lucy: It WAS actually me. My bad. No! (Laughs) God, there was a terrible fire when I was in high school that was started by two kids setting off fireworks in someone's mailbox. And they were the chief of the fire department's son, who was friends with the chief of the police department's son. And, like, I don't even know what happened to those boys, but *sigh*, I would NOT have wanted to be them. That was, that was another bad one. I was probably 16 when that happened. But, anyway. It's, it's interesting to go back to the book now, because that childhood fixation on, like, things have to stay the same … It's been a real constant in my life, that I really struggle with wanting this consistency. And … growing older, you know, that's what life is, is learning to grapple with change. And it's the only constant and all of those platitudes are really true.

Paul: Yeah.

Lucy: And, so, I've been … really coming to grips with, uh … the fact that I'm this weird blend of being a total homebody and loving to nest and liking to have my things and everything to be safe, and … wanting to travel all the time. And feeling like, uh, I'm creating a safety net for myself, where if I can land in any city in the United States and say, "I'm gonna do a tour stop here. Who can house me? Who can give me a ride? Who's gonna feed me?" You know, "Where am I gonna go?" And every place that I've gone on this tour, I've found people, and every time that happens, I feel a little safer because I'm kind of venturing out from my, like, safe nest of consistency. And, it's weird to get older and go back to my parents' house and try to help them pull it out of being this, um … dump, in some ways. Like, we didn't have the money to fix it up for a long time. And, we also, you know, I have a dad who lived through a war and was born in 1939 and, like, he's kind of a hoarder and my mom's kind of a hoarder in a different way, and I'm really excited to listen to that episode that just came out about hoarding, cuz (both laugh) that some relevant stuff! And, when I was a kid, like, the mess was part of the stability. And so, you know, you couldn’t touch any of that, cuz that was the landscape and that's what made home, home.

Paul: That was the tree.

Lucy: Yeah. That was my tree, right? And if my—

Paul: Oh, Paul, stop with the metaphors, for the love of god!

Lucy: (Laughs) If my tree was, like, check books from 1982, and, like, a pile of newspapers with no relevance to our family whatsoever, and … God, so many pens, you would not believe the Tupperware-full of Sharpie pens that I have. And that’s something that's been really sad, is, like, my dad's creative. One of my earliest drawing memories is he would make, uh, coloring books for me. He would, like, draw full sketchbooks of line art for me to color in these beautiful, abstract things. And, he started making bookmarks that he would color in and make these crazy collage things, and he would go Xerox them at the business center and laminate them and put tassels on them and quotes on the back. And, it was this lovely thing. It's, like, a sweet think, if you say it to people. And, over time, I've watched as he will go and he'll draw something and then compulsively go make 20 photocopies of it. And cut them all out meticulously and hen bring them home and put them in a pile. And then do the same thing the next day. And the same thing the next day. And the same thing the next day. And it's this avalanche. And, again, it's this dichotomy of, like, this is a beautiful thing. If you tell somebody, "My dad sends me something in the mail every day." And they go, "Oh my gosh, that's so sweet!" And it is really sweet, and I know it's his way of trying to connect with me, and also, it's heartbreaking. Every day, I get a reminder that … he's in the grip of this compulsion. And it's a compulsion that says, "I love you. I love you. I love you." But, the photocopying is almost like, he's doing it with everything now, like photos of himself that he finds from when he was younger. And it feels so poignant because it's, and it makes me think about, you know, printing 4,000 books. And it's, like, don't forget me. Like, don't forget that I was here. Remember that I performed and was loved and was valued. And, that's a big question, I think, for doing a project like this, is it changed the way that I ended the, the drying project. You know, it was going to be about, I have a demon, my demon has a demon. That demon has a demon. That demon has a demon. And that was gonna be this … I, I think that's self-obsessive. And what ended up happening was self-reflective, and it was communally reflective, in that so many other people told me that this was what they were dealing with as well, that I ended up drawing a huge crowd of people who had sent me photos from Twitter into the last page of the book. And they're all holding demons.

Paul: Oh, wow!

Lucy: And my demon's throwing a tantrum, and is like, "I don't, I think your art's useless! It's not gonna do anything!" And I'm like, "Come here, I got a surprise for you." And I open the door, and here are all these people standing in my door (unintelligible), with, you know—

Paul: WOW!

Lucy:—their demons. And I was sobbing when I drew it, and I was so scared to post it, you know, cuz I thought, "I've gotta really stick this landing. This is three and a half months, these people have been here." And, I was just physically, like, shaking, you know, pressing the button, like, "Oh my god!" And I launched the Kickstarter at the same time, so it was, "Oh god, double trouble." And, all these tweets started coming in from people, just saying, you know, "I'm crying. You did it. Like, you did it, you did it, you did it. Like, this is perfect. This is exactly what we needed." (Sighs and laughs). It's probably the scariest creative thing I've ever done.

Paul: You know, I was also thinking, as you were talking about one of the things you love about going on the road, is, um, you know, when you're able to stay with somebody and stuff, stuff like that, and … just occurred to me that it's a confirmation that there is love in the world—

Lucy: And that's what I say at the events, too, is, like, "There is value, hopefully for you, not just for me, in sitting in a room with 25 other strangers, and recognizing that these people all showed up because they are interested in being vulnerable." And that that still exists, and god, the last two years are doing their worst to just, like, beat it out of us and say, you know, "You're alone. Nobody cares. It's only gonna get worse." And, we can't have that right now, And it's one of those times when, like, I didn't grow up in a religious family, but church is onto something. Like, being in a room with a lot of people who wanna learn how to be better people to each other—

Paul: There's an energy there.

Lucy: There is an energy there! And it really is, like, "God, we gotta come up with something fast." And, you know, it's podcasts, maybe (laughs)?

Paul: And it's funny because it comes right back around to the thing that corrodes it, is judgment, whether it's in our head or the church all of a sudden going from spreading love to demonizing people and this group—

Lucy: No you, yeah. Us, but not you. Yeah—

Paul: Right, yeah. Yeah.

Lucy: And, I think it's that self-judgment that I see preclude people. I've had people tell me, um, every tour stop, I don't know if you have this with gigs, but, like, it feels like I'm throwing a birthday party and I'm afraid nobody's gonna come. And, every time, you know. And I try to remind myself that I set my bar really, reasonably for this tour and said, "Look. It's a success if one other person comes, because the fewer the people, the deeper the conversation you can have."

Paul: Wow, you're full of yourself. One person, huh?

Lucy: I know, right?! I'm shooting big here! Eight years in the business and, like, I think, maybe I can get one person. Maybe, like, an eight-year-old. But it, it's been really, uh … valuable because, like, those people who come, you know, they're—I'm losing my train of thought for what I was gonna say at the end of that sentence; oh heck.

Paul: Welcome to my world.

Lucy: (Laughs) We were talking about venues and people showing up at church, and …

Paul: Judgment.

Lucy: Judgment, yeah! I've had people tell me, um, I almost didn't come tonight because my inner critic told me that you didn’t need me. It would be too busy. Like, nobody would miss me if I wasn't here. She probably doesn’t wanna see me." You know, like, "I don't belong here."

Paul: Having no idea that you … that they might have made your night—

Lucy: Oh, absolutely! Like, and, and every time, it's what I try to tell people, like, "Please! I, I need you to be here. Like, this is a two-way street, It doesn’t work if we're not here together." And, I mean, it's kind of what I was driving at, with my dad and his photocopies and me sharing stuff online, is that there are some artists who would say, like, "Wow, that's real-, like, do you have to share every single entry as it comes out? Couldn’t you just wait and release it as a book?" And, I think there's a temporal aspect to it that's really important, and, and people have brought this up about television, that the distinction between watching a show every week on network television and, like, it stays with you however long a show runs … several months of your life, versus getting it all on Netflix in one fell swoop and binging it. They both have pros and cons, but there's something about the temporality of a project being with you over time. And I'm sure your listeners experience this, that they can tune in and have this place that they go, this waiting room, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Lucy: And it … queues them into a particular way of thinking, and it gives them permission to just, for a minute, inhabit this space where they understand that they are also in that forest shouting and everyone else is there.

Paul: What a, what a great note to, uh, to end on. Although … actually, which is one other thing I wanted to, a thought that I had as we were talking about judgment, is I think one of the fallacies is that we … we tell ourselves, whether consciously or subconsciously, that if we were to stop judging things, that we would be … we wouldn’t be safe. But, judgment isn't necessary to have a sense of discretion. There's … there's discretion and then there's judgment. And, to me, judgment is kind of … discretion with …

Lucy: With prejudice.

Paul: With sickness. With prejudice!

Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, cuz we say "good judgment," right. And, I think discretion, kind of like resilience, is, like, a better … let's just start that right now.

Paul: Yes. Judgment can have love in it, um, and judgment can have hate in it. And, uh, now I'm, uh, feeling like a jackass. I'm judging myself for saying that, because I feel (chuckles) like I'm, uh, talking down, uh, to people and talking too much and that we had a great moment to end on and I fucked it up, uh, because I had to run my mouth because I was afraid that if everybody didn't know every single thing, every single thought in my head, that I'm invisible. Let's end on that beautiful note!

Lucy: Here’s to unperfect endings (chuckles). Unperfect? Imperfect! Shit! (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) Where can, where can people, uh, find you?

Lucy: They can find me, uh, my web site is lucybellwood.com. L-u-c-y B-e-l-l-w-o-o-d.

Paul: And which, uh, is the most recent book that they can get?

Lucy: So "100 Demon Dialogues" is the book that I've been talking about the most, uh, and that's numeral 100, demon dialogues with a "ues" because English parents and I didn't know better, uh, .com. And you can also find it on my web site. And I'm at "LuBellWoo" on Twitter and Instagram and all those other social media places that I'm trying to do less of (laughs).

Paul: And, uh, we'll put links to all this stuff. Thanks, Lucy.

Lucy: Thank you so much.

End of Interview

[01:18:57] What a pleasure to talk to! And be sure to check out her book. It's, it's really great. Before I take it out with some surveys, uh, wanna remind you guys there's a bunch of different ways you can support the podcast, and I list them all under the show notes of, um, a lot of the recent episodes. You can support us financially, which we really need. You know, we do have advertise, advertisers on here, but that alone does not keep the show going, and Patreon is a really, really great way to help, uh, keep the show afloat. You can subscribe, uh, become a month donor for as little as a dollar a month and, uh, sometimes I'll give freebies out, or you can enter into a drawing for, uh, stuff that I'll raffle off. You can also do a one-time or, be-, become a monthly donor through PayPal as well. And you can support the show non-financially by giving us a good rating on iTunes, writing something nice about it, or spreading the word through social media. There's all different kinds of ways. All of them are very, very much appreciated.

[01:20:07] Wanna give a shout-out to our sponsor, uh, Madison Reed. Madison Reed is hair color reinvented, giving you gorgeous salon-quality color delivered to your door for less than $25. It's crafted in Italy by master colorists. Madison Reed is professional hair color you can easily do at home. It's multi-tonal, ammonia-free, and made with ingredients you can feel good about. I have a listener named "Cap." She wrote to me and said that she really enjoyed using Madison Reed, and I said, "Well, can you give me some detailed comments on your experience?" And she wrote back; she said, "Ordering was pretty easy. The package arrived fairly promptly for my country living zip code. You open the box—it's a lovely assembly of products, presented in a very contemporary and appealing way. It was so cute, I took a picture. Instructions were easy to follow, and the second pair of gloves for rinsing is genius. The cap was also appreciated, since the set time is 45 minutes, so I didn't have to worry about color transfer while doing a few things around the house to pass the time. The color itself was easy to mix and apply. I'm particularly sensitive to strong chemical odors, and was surprised by the pleasant fragrance. The color is rich with good depth and coverage on those stubborn grays. I would suggest ordering two kits, if you have longer hair. It made may hair actually feel healthier, thick, and smooth. Many thanks, Paul and Madison Reed." So, there you have it. Find your perfect shade from Madison Reed. Get an expert color consultation or take the color quiz at marison-reed.com. You guys get 10 percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with code "mental". That's code "mental" at madison-reed.com.

[01:22:06] Want to also give a shot-out to a new podcast that Dr. Phil has called Phil in the Blanks. And Phil in the Blanks shows you a whole new side of Dr. Phil. These are all new, unscripted, no-holds-barred conversations with celebrities and experts. Phil talks to people like Vivica Fox, Dax Shephard, Kathy Bates, Jay Leno and Steve Harvey. Plus experts like neurosurgeons and lie spotters. Phil's other goals is to share tips that apply to real life, like the 10 things you need to do if your life gets in crisis, or what do you do if you go into your kid's room and you find drugs in their sock drawer. So, Dr. Phil's podcast, Phil in the Blanks is out now. That's p-h-i-l in the blanks. Listen on your favorite podcast app, like Apple Podcast or Stitcher, and make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

[01:23:01] Let's get to some surveys. This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "My Puppy's Armchair." And, she writes, "This morning in therapy, I realized that even though my childhood was a perfect dream—" and I, I love this one, too, because it's so fitting after listening to the episode with Lucy and her talking about her fear of losing her dad. "This morning in therapy, I realized that even though my childhood was a perfect dream and I love my entire family so much, that perfection has still managed to slam me with a huge problem: chronophobia. My life has been so amazing thus far, that I stay up all night, sobbing about how quickly time is passing, how I can never get my youth back, and how I'll wake one morning with dead parents with no way of ever revisiting the love-filled days of my childhood." That feeling, like, when you go back to your home town and you realize you will never have those memories again. You will never get to experience those exciting moments or that group of friends all together in the same place. There is a certain sadness to that. Continuing: "Later this evening, after my appointment, my mom called me to say, 'Hey, honey. No need to worry, but your dad and I are revising our will and we need to have a little meeting with you and you brothers to figure it all out. Just to be prepared and all.' Mom, you nurturing, compassionate, selfless bitch!" (Laughs) It's not rare that we get a survey on here, where … the parents re just, uh, doing their job.

[01:24:39] This is a shame and secret survey filed out by a guy who calls himself, uh, "Harry." He is 18. He's gay. He was raised in a stable and safe environment. Never been sexually abused. Not sure if he has been physically or emotionally abused. "My parents, especially my dad, would freeze up and almost start blanking me halfway through a conversation without telling me what I did or said to upset them. I would feel sick with anxiety, and I would beg them to talk to me or tell me how I could make it up to them, but they would shake their head and say something like, 'I give up.' I am so sensitive to any kind of dispute and often don't feel like I am entitled to my emotions, like anger or frustration." You know, that, that, to me, is a form of abuse. You're trying to communicate with our parent. I mean, that is like a boilerplate, baseline need between a parent and a child is guidance and communication and feedback—especially when the kid's asking for it. Darkest thoughts: "I sometimes wish my whole family would die, so I wouldn't been afraid to kill myself if I got to that place again." Well, you're 18 now, so you don't owe your parents anything. If you are not getting your baseline relationship needs met by your parents … find relationships that do fill your emotional needs outside of your family. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Having sex with someone who insists they're straight. It makes me feel weird, writing that because it could spawn no emotional connection, and it's a situation I'd probably apologize afterwards." But isn't that most of our fantasies anyway? It's something that we're kind of morally opposed to, or ashamed of, or it's attached to some type of trauma or anxiety or worry, often related to childhood. So, dude! You know … Find a consenting partner and roleplay. In-, in-, indulge in it, in a, in a consenting way with someone. And it can bring you closer to them. So don't shame yourself. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? "I want to tell my parents to stop making any feelings I have about them, like when I confide in them and they feel attacked because it's a burden on them." Your, your parents sound really narcissistic. What' if anything, do you wish for? "To get over my problems with food." Well, I have the feeling that your problems with food are directly related to you feeling a lack of control in your relationship with your parents, because you are not taking … the, the, uh, the power that is there to advocate for yourself and to say, "Hey, this is not acceptable." He's never shared these things with others, and after writing these things down, it feels cathartic. You sound like and awesome, awesome, sensitive guy who was … shamed for being sensitive.

[01:28:04] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Lost in Loneliness." She is, uh, identifies as bisexual. She's in her 20s. She was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. I'm not even really sure if something happened. I can remember being interested in sex at a very young age. I began to masturbate at probably seven years old. I can remember fantasizing as a child about sex that involved hurting boys or men. I wondered why I would have such a violent sexual fantasy at such a young age, but can't remember anything ever happening. When I was in college in a conversation with my mother, she mentioned that when I was around three years old, whenever I saw a particular male member of her Sunday school class and friend group, I would always take off my pants and my diaper. I wonder if something could have happened when I was very young and can't remember it, that could have triggered these events and fantasies." She's not sure if she's even been physically or emotionally abused. "I'm not sure if I would call it emotional abuse, but I think that my mother emotionally neglected me throughout my childhood. She suffers from chronic back pain, and ever since her injury when I was eight years old, I became the mother figure in our family. I would take care of my brother and take care of her. My father was present and very loving, but was often busy taking care of my mother. Our family system values the 'martyr mommy.' The expectation is that mother will give everything she can to take care of everyone else in the family. Because of my mother's physical inability to do this, I was expected to become the martyr mommy at age eight." You know, whatever your parents intent, it doesn’t really matter. It's, it's how that made you feel and what needs you didn't get met as a child and finding a way to go back and meet those yourself. That's, that's what matters. And, you're not making too big of a deal of it. That's a HUGE piece for a kid to miss out on. I mean, you're missing being a kid! That's huge! "My brother and I also spent a lot of time walking on eggshells around my mother, because if she was having a bad pain day, she would snap at us for minor things. My mother also suffers from some OCD, and I think that one of her obsessions is that my brother or I am gay, and her compulsion was to ask constantly about our sexuality. Once in middle school, she took me to buy new shoes, and I picked out some Converse Chuck Taylor All-Star sneakers. She said to me, 'Back when I was in school, if we saw a girl wearing schools like that, we would call her a dyke.' She thought this was hilarious and repeated her joke to my grandmother the next time we visited and I showed off my new shoes. My mother was never very open about her emotions, and I don't feel comfortable sharing my feelings with her." That is definitely a big, missing piece that … I, I think would be healthy to process with a therapist or support group or something. But, uh … Any positive experiences with the people who abused you? "Because of mother's chronic pain, I understand that she's been through a lot. I can tell that sometimes she is really trying her best to be there for my brother and I, and I really appreciate her effort." Yes, and that is a separate issue from you having not gotten things. Darkest thoughts: "I found out I was attracted to women when I fell in love with my best friend in grad school. She's getting married this fall, and I sometimes fantasize that they will call it off and she will come to me and apologize for leading me on and breaking my heart when I revealed my feelings to her, and then she and I would be together. I also often fantasize about being in a car wreck or a plane crash, being mugged or raped. I wanna wake up in a hospital and see this girl there for me, caring for me. I fantasize about her holding my hand and kissing me on the forehead, telling me she is there for me." You know, I … It's interestng, the things that you fantasize about this person fulfilling in you are the very things that you didn't get from your mom. You know, this, this fantasy, uh, let me ready again and just imagine … that. Substitute your mom. You know, take the, obviously the sex part out of it, but, "I fantasize about being in a car wreck or a plane crash, being mugged or raped. I wanna wake up in a hospital and see this person there for me, caring for me. I fantasize about her holding my hand and kissing me on the forehead, telling me she is there for me." Which, to me, tell me … the work to work on, is, is healing that stuff … from childhood. Darkest secrets: "I recently, drunkenly sexted with a random guy I met on the internet. It was exciting and really turned me on. Bu the next, when I was sober, I realized I had no idea who he was or how old he was, and I had a panic attack." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I wanna be held down and fucked by a bunch of guys, one after another. I wanna be blindfolded and totally at their mercy. As I write this, I'm getting turned on, just thinking about it. I feel like a terrible person for fantasizing about being taken advantage of and used." It's ju-, I sound like a broken record, but it's just a fantasy. And, it's … If you let it just be a fantasy, it can be so fucking hot and so, it's a form of self-love. And there's nothing wrong with your fantasy. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I wanna tell my best friend that I am still in love with her and that I'm not sure I wanna go to her wedding, much less sing a song during the service. I'm afraid to tell her because if I'm afraid, it will be the end of our friendship and I am so lonely and without friends I can't bear the idea of losing one of my three real friends." What, if anything, do you wish for? "I just wish to feel normal, and not depressed or anxious. I just wanna wake up and not be worried or miserable. I wish I had someone who really, truly cared for me who I could trust to share my feelings with." Have you shared these things with others? "I've shared with a few friends that I wanna feel normal and not depressed or anxious. They seem to wanna be there for me, but they offer a lot of solutions that don't work or make sense, and that makes me frustrated or angry." With a wound as big as what you have, there is nothing that somebody can say that is gonna heal that wound. The only way to heal wounds that big is to process it over months and years through self-care and support with people who understand what it is that you're feel. How do you feel after writing these things down? "I kinda feel good, writing these things down, but I also feel sad, hurt, lonely, and abandoned." And this is gonna sound fucked up, but that's great, because instead of running from that feeling, trying to find somebody else to take that feeling away, process it. Cry about it. Rage about it. All of those feelings are trapped in there, and they are fucking driving the bus until we heal. You know, I, I often say our feelings aren't gonna kill us, but running from them might. And I say it, while I'm wearing a top hat and I'm doing air quotes. Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "I know if doesn’t help to hear from a stranger that you aren’t alone. I don't know; I don’t think anyone has ever said anything to me that makes me feel better, so I don’t know what to say to someone else." Sometimes a hug or just listening can be, like, the most powerful thing. Thank you for that. It was a really important survey.

[01:36:40] This is a happy moment … and this was filled out by a woman who calls herself "Min's Anxious Brain; Sorry if This is Too Long." She writes, "Over the holidays, I spent some time with my uncle, who has been recently widowed. We lost my aunt last year to breast cancer. This particular uncle and I have been building a more solid relationship in the last two to three years, and we have a special bond, in that we both have similar temperaments. We both have socially awkward tendencies and we’re both artists. He also happens to be the brother of my estranged father, and one of the only family members on that side I have a relationship with. I went to his house on Christmas Eve with my partner, and my cousins were there as well. It honestly has been feeling very empty, though I noticed that my uncle had done a lot to the house. He made some on his walls into huge murals of photographs. He was planning on changing the use of every room: where the kitchen was now, the dining room would be, etcetera, etcetera. All the changes made me feel uncomfortable. I felt like I could feel his loneliness welling up in my chest, but I really tried to be positive so we could all be uplifted. We got on talking about my extended family. This always puts me on edge. I'm not in contact with most of my direct or distant family right now; this is for a lot of reasons. But to put it shortly, they do not treat me with respect or know how to give me love. I was emotionally abused and neglected by them since my mom died when I was 15—probably before that as well—and had been prioritizing my well-being, which resulted in distance from them." Super high-five on that. "I knew my uncle meant well with what he was asking, but having to bring up one traumatic experience after another, one hurtful instance after another, it eventually got to me. I felt like I was being pestered and judged for cutting off times with some people, and I broke down crying from the pressure. This isn't something I've ever done in front of my uncle. I find it difficult and often humiliating to be emotionally vulnerable in front of others, but truly I'm at a point in my life when I don't inhibit myself anymore, so I cried. And while I cried, I described out loud to him what I was feeling and what my view of the situation was. The entire time, he showed genuine concern and voiced that he wanted to hear what happened so that he could be aware of how he came off and fix the issue. I just kept letting the energy run through me and even though I still felt some guilt in the fact that I was taking up space to cry. When my partner and I got into the car later, he looked at me and said, 'I'm so proud of you. You have no idea how much impact you have on others.' I was a little surprised. He then pointed out to me that as soon as I let myself be vulnerable, my uncle started opening up. He started telling me about his fears, the isolation he's facing, and he was being more candid in the conversation. I was pretty caught up with anxiety while I was there and I barely noticed. All in all, it was a beautiful experience that encouraged me to keep being emotionally open. It can melt away barriers, just to look at someone who is emoting feely and remember that we are all human, and we all deserve to take up that space. I still struggle with the notion that I am too sensitive and too soft. But I'm really proud of my ability to communicate with others and bring out softness and truth in them." THAT is awesome! That is a template for growth. And it just fucking fires me up.

[01:40:36] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Daddy Issues 101." She is 19, uh, she was raised in slightly dysfunctional environment. I would say more than that after, after having read this. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. I met my father for the first time when I was 19, and after three weeks of living together we had sex. He didn't have to force me or anything, but I feel like this will lead to a lot of daddy issues in the future." People who might be shocked by reading this … There was actually a, an episode—I think it was on Oprah—about this dynamic, that when people meet their estranged parent or their estranged child for the first time and they're both adults, they, it is not uncommon for them to turn it into a romantic relationship. I dunno if that's the right word, but … The chemicals, apparently, are so strong, that it, it can lead to that. So, um … I felt like I needed to mention that. You know, and I'm not a therapist, so I don't know what the repercussions are of having done this or anything beyond that. She's been emotionally abused. "Narcissistic who became disabled later in life, and she kept trying to keep me living at home, but also had no one to lash her emotions out at except me. She kept me from my father and his side of the family. A lot of self-doubt and shame surrounding anything dealing with greed. Like, I can't bring myself to ask for anything, and if I do, I feel like crying and feel selfish." Any positive experiences with her? "She's my mom. That's pretty much it." So, no (chuckles). Darkest thoughts: "She constantly threatens suicide, and sometimes I wonder what it would be like if she did it." That is one of the most abusive things you could do to a child. It is … you would be removed from the home if child services became aware … that a parent was threatening to kill themselves in front of a child. "As for my father, I'm scared that I like it, because right now I'm just doing it because otherwise he pouts, and he is very unpleasant to be around." That is not good. That is not good. He is abusing his power as a father. And … Do not keep … doing it because he's pouting. "My father was in prison for 10 years for molesting my two younger siblings, and sometimes I resent them for speaking up, because it meant I didn't get a father figure in my life and felt like the reject child. Imagine being the offspring of someone who hurt your siblings. It's not a good feeling." Darkest secrets: "I think having sex with my father takes the cake." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Watching people pee, especially where they aren’t supposed to, like in a car, a carpeted floor, a dresser drawer full of clothes. And watching guys sucking themselves. I makes me feel really gross. Why can't I just like normal, story-driven porn?" I would say because most of it's awful, and most of us have some quirk or something that's specific, um, and if you ever find something that's specific to what you're turn-on is, it's really powerful. You know, whether or not it's compulsive behavior is another story entirely, but, uh, I don't—and she writes, "I don't like thinking of myself as a sexual being." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to? "I wanna tell my dad that I dislike his girlfriend. She can't support herself. He supports her. Therefore, I have to help support HIM." You do not have to help support him. He is your father, and … Anyway, continuing: "He always says he wants her business to be a job and not just a hobby, and is willing to put himself into debt for it. And yet, I work 50- to 60-hour weeks at 19 on an assembly line, and I get no pity." You not gonna get it from your dad. Your dad is a manipulative, narcissistic predator. What, if anything, do you wish for? "For financial stability, s