Glacius0 Profile Joined July 2010 Netherlands 66 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-28 12:55:33 #1



This so-called "bug-fix" isn't so much a fix as it is a huge nerf. The splash range was as blizzard intended, but the unit radius +2 from unit center rule got a bit too crazy once they allowed you to target buildings with it. Now they changed it to +2 from the front of the target which fixes the "bug" but effectively nerfs splash range against bigger sized units. Smaller units go largely unaffected. Tanks are also affected, but not as much as they are medium-sized. As can be seen in the patch note discussion of this thread ultralisk splash damage was changed to fix a bug.This so-called "bug-fix" isn't so much a fix as it is a. The splash range was as blizzard intended, but the unit radius +2 from unit center rule got a bit too crazy once they allowed you to target buildings with it. Now they changed it to +2 from the front of the target which fixes the "bug" but effectively This last sentence is wrong. See edit on the bottom of this post.



Result?



Ultralisks are no longer a valid counter to Thors.



Here are some images to demonstrate (tested on burrowed ultras, as this was easier to test):

+ Show Spoiler +





Post-patch:





Post-patch worst situation (easily achieved with minor micro in case of thors):

Prepatch:Post-patch:Post-patch worst situation (easily achieved with minor micro in case of thors):

Tests in the unit tester conclude:

- One thor barely beats one ultra with no micro.

- Groups of more than 6-7 thors vs equal amount of ultras with no micro can win. The bigger the group the better. Focus fire significantly helps Thors as ultras are unable to do something similar.

- Chances of thors winning significantly increase with chokes. Blocking a choke with thors is easy as they are big.

- Worst finding: If you spread out your thors even a little bit, they will receive almost no splash. In this situation thors effectively counter ultras now. It gets worse if you also target fire.



Here's the result with proper focus fire and minor spreading (I only moved one thor forward a bit):

+ Show Spoiler +





Result:

Starting position:Result:

Cool would not have won his tourney match with this patch. Not because SCVs won't die anymore when a PF gets attacked, but because Thors receive significantly less splash damage from ultras.



Fixing a bug with a nerf doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Additional testing is recommended if anyone is up to it. I did not test much with upgrades, except for getting 6 armor on ultras and seeing how unupgraded thors still counter them if you spread micro. Also I only tested a little while on 1.1 before patching to 1.1.1.



Important edit:



Some additional research from Raketti in



Picture evidence here:

+ Show Spoiler +

My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same.



While the biggest impact is on large units like thors, the nerf actually seems to affect all units. Some additional research from Raketti in this post shows that it's worse than I thought. It seems splash got reduced for smaller units too.Picture evidence here:My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same.While the biggest impact is on large units like thors, the nerf actually seems to affect all units. Result?Here are some images to demonstrate (tested on burrowed ultras, as this was easier to test):Tests in the unit tester conclude:- One thor barely beats one ultra with no micro.- Groups of more than 6-7 thors vs equal amount of ultras with no micro can win. The bigger the group the better. Focus fire significantly helps Thors as ultras are unable to do something similar.- Chances of thors winning significantly increase with chokes. Blocking a choke with thors is easy as they are big.If you spread out your thors even a little bit, they will receive almost no splash. In this situation. It gets worse if you also target fire.Here's the result with proper focus fire and minor spreading (I only moved one thor forward a bit):Fixing a bug with a nerf doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Additional testing is recommended if anyone is up to it. I did not test much with upgrades, except for getting 6 armor on ultras and seeing how unupgraded thors still counter them if you spread micro. Also I only tested a little while on 1.1 before patching to 1.1.1.

Keitzer Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 2505 Posts #2



jk... but this might be a bit extreme ya? let's see how it goes before we jump to conclusions so mass thors is viable again?jk... but this might be a bit extreme ya? let's see how it goes before we jump to conclusions I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489

dcemuser Profile Joined August 2010 United States 3246 Posts #3 This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.



I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.



Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.

Brutus Profile Joined May 2010 Netherlands 283 Posts #4 If this is the result, bring back the ram and give back my old splash! I was afraid of this when I read the patch notes. Just fucking stupid tbh

Goliathsorrow Profile Joined September 2010 Italy 317 Posts #5 Aw that's a low blow.



Not a terran-zerg expert but didn't the thor cannon ability counter ultralisks already ?





JinDesu Profile Blog Joined August 2010 United States 3778 Posts #6 On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote:

This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.



I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.



Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.



Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect. Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect. Yargh

Camlito Profile Blog Joined July 2007 Australia 4038 Posts #7 . Should be used to Blizzard terran bias by now sAviOr...

QuixoticO Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Netherlands 751 Posts #8 Makes you wonder if Blizzard even tests their fixes before releasing them to the public. Going to be hard to counter thors now guess I'm going back to Burrow Roaches for Thors. "Suum Cuique" - Cicero

Toxiferous Profile Joined June 2009 United States 388 Posts #9 mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is





Viruuus Profile Joined February 2010 Germany 424 Posts #10 I really am mad how stupid Blizzard is about balance. This is only getting worse every patch.

And what makes me explode is people claiming Thors are bad against ultras, just because TOP lost the battle vs Cool, when in fact:

1) he didnt micro at all, even before patch 12 Thors can easily win against 10 Ultras with some micro

2) Ultras now are even more useless, thanks to OP for showing this once again. Lee Jae Dong fighting!!!

Euriti Profile Joined September 2010 Denmark 72 Posts #11 With +1 attack I think usual attacks were just as good. Either way this seems really silly. Could they not have changed the mechanic against buildings and left the unit mechanic alone? Seems they are able to seperate buildings from units when it comes to behavior as seen by the previous ram ability. Maybe just make 2 different attacks like before but make the building attack splash like this and the unit attack splash like pre 1.1.1. You won't have the sillyness of the PF but Ultras will still be able to counter thors nicely.

dcemuser Profile Joined August 2010 United States 3246 Posts #12 On September 28 2010 19:56 Toxiferous wrote:

mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is







I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultras were extremely good versus mass Thor. I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultrasextremely good versus mass Thor.

Piski Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Finland 3460 Posts #13 Saying that they are useless now is just stupid.

Sqq Profile Joined August 2010 Norway 1978 Posts #14 the massive splash was obviously not intended. But it seemed to make the Ultralisk work better than it did without it and make it a really viable unit late game. Dead girls don't say no.

Coeus1 Profile Joined May 2010 Finland 158 Posts #15 On September 28 2010 19:49 Glacius0 wrote:



Result?



Ultralisks are no longer a valid counter to Thors.







Quite a statement, thank you.



Hmm. . btw, does anyone know any good alternatives to teamliquid forums? Quite a statement, thank you.Hmm. . btw, does anyone know any good alternatives to teamliquid forums? xxx

lovewithlea Profile Joined March 2010 168 Posts #16 wow blizzard. thanks!! i really hated it to actually have a chance IF!! .. I F ! i made it to T3 mass ultras versus Terran. i'm so glad it's back to normal!!

Suikakuju Profile Joined July 2010 Germany 233 Posts #17 Iam freakin relieved that this has been fixed, I mean that was unfair to all P and T.....NOT Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone.

dcemuser Profile Joined August 2010 United States 3246 Posts #18 On September 28 2010 19:55 JinDesu wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote:

This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.



I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.



Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.



Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect. Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect.



No, I mean if you had, for example 3 Ultras attacking a Terran army with like 3 Tanks, 10 marines, and 1 Thor, then you could have the Ultras target the Thor and it would hit -everything- in the Terran's army. If you targeted the Marines, you would hit barely anything. No, I mean if you had, for example 3 Ultras attacking a Terran army with like 3 Tanks, 10 marines, and 1 Thor, then you could have the Ultras target the Thor and it would hit -everything- in the Terran's army. If you targeted the Marines, you would hit barely anything.

Chaosvuistje Profile Joined April 2010 Netherlands 2579 Posts #19 Awesome, I was worrying about my 50% winrate.



Back to 40! :D

Brutus Profile Joined May 2010 Netherlands 283 Posts #20 On September 28 2010 19:57 Coeus1 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 28 2010 19:49 Glacius0 wrote:



Result?



Ultralisks are no longer a valid counter to Thors.







Quite a statement, thank you.



Hmm. . btw, does anyone know any good alternatives to teamliquid forums? Quite a statement, thank you.Hmm. . btw, does anyone know any good alternatives to teamliquid forums?



Instead of being a smartass, go and look at the test results and you will see this is a huge blow. I think his conclusion is a very sound one.

Instead of being a smartass, go and look at the test results and you will see this is a huge blow. I think his conclusion is a very sound one.

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