TL.net Bot Profile Joined June 2004 TL.net 48 Posts Last Edited: 2011-03-19 21:03:00 #1



We want to advise you to carefully read this topic if you are going to consider making a post. This is a very sensitive and tricky subject and anyone arguing with a lack of knowledge of the situation will quickly be warned or banned. It is difficult enough already without ignorance involved.



From our rulebook that has been sent out and agreed upon by every player:



In the first match between Boxer and Nightend an unfortunate disconnect situation arose -- Boxer was disconnected from the game near the 19:00 minute mark. This topic will be used as an explanation of the situation to create as much openness as we can about our rules and administration. We hate it when organizations make rulings without being able to explain them properly and feel it is a requirement to a successful tournament.We want to advise you to carefully read this topic if you are going to consider making a post. This is a very sensitive and tricky subject and anyone arguing with a lack of knowledge of the situation will quickly be warned or banned. It is difficult enough already without ignorance involved.From our rulebook that has been sent out and agreed upon by every player: Disconnects

In the event of a disconnect the referee will ask the players about what they think the result of the game should be (regame/win/loss). If both players can agree on the result then that result will stand. If both players cannot agree on the result a panel of 5 TSL staff and/or informed people will be called to make a decision. Players will have the opportunity to veto any of the members of panel if they have good reason to do so (e.g. bias). One of the following courses of action will be taken by the panel. The decision reached by the panel is final.



1. A disconnecter can be identified

If all five people on the panel can identify an advantage for the non-disconnecter he will be

awarded the game. If all five people on the panel determine that the disconnecting player has the game absolutely won, the disconnecter will be awarded the win. If not, a regame will be issued.

Let's first explain the rules a little more in depth here. The rulebook is five pages and just lists simplified versions of the rules, it doesn't go super in depth.



If you disconnect and are losing you get the loss. Rules regarding disconnecting should first and foremost prevent cheating. When playing in a big tournament the rules should always give a loss when a disconnecting player is at a disadvantage.



If you disconnect and are winning (with exception of point 3), you can't get a win otherwise people can start discing the moment they gain an advantage in the game. Since the disconnect was not his fault, the non-disconnecter should not receive a loss when he still has a chance to come back.



If the disconnecting player had the game absolutely won then we will rule it a win for the disconnecting player. "Absolutely won" means that the player had the game won beyond all reasonable doubt and had an "absolute advantage." This operates from the mindset that a player will make all the mistakes in the world that can be expected from a professional level player. So missing EMPs and other micro mistakes can definitely happen but right clicking units and not touching them for five minutes can't. It is important to keep in mind that our standard is NOT that the game must be mathematically over 100%.



Let's first explain the rules a little more in depth here. The rulebook is five pages and just lists simplified versions of the rules, it doesn't go super in depth. Prae.NightEnD vs SlayerS_BoxeR



When word of the disconnect came in we took a look at the replay and talked to the players. Both players wanted the panel to decide the outcome.



The Panel's Decision



The panel will view the replay and decide whether one player had the game absolutely won. The decision by the approved panel members must be unanimous. This means if the panel does not award the disconnecting player a win, then 1, 2, 3, 4, or all 5 did not believe the disconnecting player had an "absolute advantage."



When the panel does unanimously agree that the disconnecting player should be awarded the win, then we will do our best to present their opinions to you.



The Panel Members



When disconnect situations happen we ideally go looking around for top players that play the same races as the players or generally have what we consider a good understanding of the game. In this case we approached Liquid`Nazgul, Liquid`Tyler, MYM.Cloud, mouz.Morrow, oGsMC. NightEnd vetoed Tyler, Boxer vetoed Cloud. While we were looking for more panel members, both players agreed to a 3 man panel instead of 5. We want to thank everyone for stepping up and helping us out.



The Ruling



All three approved panel members said this game was "absolutely won". We can't say this enough but you need to remember that this is within the settings of a professional game and not mathematically 100%. That means if the player made all the mistakes that can be potentially expected from a professional from the point of the disconnect on, he still would have won.



Replay -



When word of the disconnect came in we took a look at the replay and talked to the players. Both players wanted the panel to decide the outcome.The panel will view the replay and decide whether one player had the game absolutely won. The decision by the approved panel members must be unanimous. This means if the panel does not award the disconnecting player a win, then 1, 2, 3, 4, or all 5 did not believe the disconnecting player had an "absolute advantage."When the panel does unanimously agree that the disconnecting player should be awarded the win, then we will do our best to present their opinions to you.When disconnect situations happen we ideally go looking around for top players that play the same races as the players or generally have what we consider a good understanding of the game. In this case we approached Liquid`Nazgul, Liquid`Tyler, MYM.Cloud, mouz.Morrow, oGsMC. NightEnd vetoed Tyler, Boxer vetoed Cloud. While we were looking for more panel members, both players agreed to a 3 man panel instead of 5. We want to thank everyone for stepping up and helping us out.All three approved panel members said this game was "absolutely won". We can't say this enough but you need to remember that this is within the settings of a professional game and not mathematically 100%. That means if the player made all the mistakes that can be potentially expected from a professional from the point of the disconnect on, he still would have won.Replay - http://www.teamliquid.net/files/Game1_BoxervsNightend.sc2replay The Panel: Liquid`Nazgul, oGsMinchul, mouz.Morrow



Liquid`Nazgul

+ Show Spoiler [Opinion] +



When the replay nears the end it's clear that Boxer in a huge advantage. Supply 162 vs 138, superior expansions superior upgrades and very close to sniping off an additional nexus. I'm of the opinion that Protoss often has a chance to come back into games by sitting back and massing up a Protoss ball at which point a Terran may make a big mistake lose a 200/200 battle and lose the match.



A huge advantage however is not enough for an "absolute" win. The defining factor of why Terran is going to roll over Nightends army and expansion is because out of the 11 phoenix 9 are at ~30 energy. They are basically 18 supply of units that will take out the vikings and then the medivacs but can't touch the Marauder/Marine/Ghost except for two liftoffs.



This makes it a battle of 19 Marauders, 4 Marines, 2 Ghosts against 15 Stalkers and 1 Zealot. The two cannons are already under attack when the game ends at 18:49 and will get a few shots off before they die. Even though the Marauders are not full HP they have a lot of hitpoints and the medivacs will heal them a bit more before the battle starts and the medivacs die. The Terran units are 1-1 against the 0-0 of Protoss. Although the Forge is far on the Protoss upgrade it's not far enough to play a role in this battle. Even though this is only a part of the Terran army with much more at home it will be enough to easily win the battle against the Stalkers and kill the nexus, because the Phoenix can't do anything. The gateways all have about 60% cooldown to go. There is a colossus in production and it's not yet (almost) done and has a very long walk ahead.



Many people will see this fight at Nightend's third and believe there is a chance for him to hold. There is no chance. The Terran will win the battle without any micro. When these armies fight, even with 0 EMPs, there will be 10+ marauders left over even if probes are pulled. Here is a simulation, with exact hit points and upgrades:







http://www.teamliquid.net/files/BoxerNight_BattleSim.sc2replay



This replay simulates the battle under the assumption that Boxer is a total noob



Boxer had 3 EMP rounds we assumed he got zero off



Boxer's medivacs His medivacs get very few heals off whereas in reality they would have some healing to do before the battle start, and then some more healing to do when the phoenix get attacked by the vikings





The Nexus dying is a fact and this game will continue on with 3 mining bases against 1. The one base of NightEnd has 4565 minerals left, Boxer has a base with 3428, one with 6655 and then an unmined base coming up.



Comebacks with 1 base to 3 bases are rare. I would say that a Protoss even with a templar archives with storm and energy upgraded and charge/blink done loses that game 99% of the time. But Nightend did not even have any of these upgrades.



The reason why this is not possible in the game between Nightend and Boxer is that Nightend has a single robotics, no templar archives and no blink or charge. His only option is gateway units and building single Robotics units. To seal his fate Boxer is upgrading air attack and ground attack. When watching this game it is important that you put the replay on 18:49. This is absolutely crucial.When the replay nears the end it's clear that Boxer in a huge advantage. Supply 162 vs 138, superior expansions superior upgrades and very close to sniping off an additional nexus. I'm of the opinion that Protoss often has a chance to come back into games by sitting back and massing up a Protoss ball at which point a Terran may make a big mistake lose a 200/200 battle and lose the match.A huge advantage however is not enough for an "absolute" win. The defining factor of why Terran is going to roll over Nightends army and expansion is because out of the 11 phoenix 9 are at ~30 energy. They are basically 18 supply of units that will take out the vikings and then the medivacs but can't touch the Marauder/Marine/Ghost except for two liftoffs.This makes it a battle of 19 Marauders, 4 Marines, 2 Ghosts against 15 Stalkers and 1 Zealot. The two cannons are already under attack when the game ends at 18:49 and will get a few shots off before they die. Even though the Marauders are not full HP they have a lot of hitpoints and the medivacs will heal them a bit more before the battle starts and the medivacs die. The Terran units are 1-1 against the 0-0 of Protoss. Although the Forge is far on the Protoss upgrade it's not far enough to play a role in this battle. Even though this is only a part of the Terran army with much more at home it will be enough to easily win the battle against the Stalkers and kill the nexus, because the Phoenix can't do anything. The gateways all have about 60% cooldown to go. There is a colossus in production and it's not yet (almost) done and has a very long walk ahead.Many people will see this fight at Nightend's third and believe there is a chance for him to hold. There is no chance. The Terran will win the battle without any micro. When these armies fight, even with 0 EMPs, there will be 10+ marauders left over even if probes are pulled. Here is a simulation, with exact hit points and upgrades:The Nexus dying is a fact and this game will continue on with 3 mining bases against 1. The one base of NightEnd has 4565 minerals left, Boxer has a base with 3428, one with 6655 and then an unmined base coming up.Comebacks with 1 base to 3 bases are rare. I would say that a Protoss even with a templar archives with storm and energy upgraded and charge/blink done loses that game 99% of the time. But Nightend did not even have any of these upgrades.The reason why this is not possible in the game between Nightend and Boxer is that Nightend has a single robotics, no templar archives and no blink or charge. His only option is gateway units and building single Robotics units. To seal his fate Boxer is upgrading air attack and ground attack.



oGsMinchul

+ Show Spoiler [Opinion] + 프로토스 선수는 고위기사 태크트리가 확보되지않았고



돌진과 점멸 업그레이드도 안된상태였으며



불사조의 마나는 EMP를 맞은 상태라 중력자광선을 사용할수도없는상황(2기제외)



테란 선수는 추적자보다 많은 불곰을 확보하고있었고 의료선에 고스트까지



확보되어있어 프로토스의 세번째 넥서스를 파괴한뒤 돌아가서 재정비를 하여도



되고 그냥 경기를 끝낼수도 있는 상황이었습니다



또한 테란은 4번째 커맨드센터까지 완성되었으며



프로토스는 거신이 모이지도않았고 고위기사를 확보할수없으며



황혼의회의 업그레이드도 되지않아 역전이 불가능한 상황이라고 생각됩니다



[At the time of disconnect] The Protoss player did not have High Templar tech.



He did not have charge upgrade, or blink upgrade.



His Phoenixes had been hit by EMP, and did not have the mana to use their anti gravity-ability (with the exception of two).



The Terran player had more marauders than the Protoss player had stalkers, and had medivac and ghosts together with his force.



The Terran player was in a situation he could have chosen to destroy the Protoss's third Nexus and retreated to regroup, or simply chosen to end the game straight up.



Also, Terran had completed his fourth command center



while Protoss did not even have many Collossi, and did not have the ability to build High Templars.



Without even the twilight citadel upgrades, I thought it was an irreversible situation.



mouz.Morrow

+ Show Spoiler [Opinion] + First of all Boxer has a clear economic advantage. He's running on 3bases just like Nightend but he has the gold base and with the mules it becomes quite a bit more. The 4th cc almost completed and would have been up and running pretty shortly after this disconnect.



Let's just assume Terran backs off, sets up 4th base and keep macroing. How does Protoss deal with this? He has a ton of phoenixes without high enery and also such a low colossus number (and with 1 robo it would too slowly grow to make the phoenixes really useful. On top of things the ghosts pretty much nullify them anyways). Next I see the upgrades. Toss have lower basic upgrades but also no blink, no charge, and no high templar tech even.



He sits on 3 bases, he gets outmacro'd. He tries to take a 4th, Terran would crush that just because Protoss has no real strenght at this point of the game without these upgrades or high templar.



When I watch this from a Protoss perspective and ask myself, what is my strength here, what do I have going for me right now? All that he really has is a high gateway number and high mineral count. But again a ton of zealots is not really going to be useful without charge. And once charge would in theory be done Terran would have had a huge army and secured 4bases. and still, protoss wouldnt have had high templars to combine with his zealot heavy army.



If I was the Terran here, I would have backed off after that scan. Secure my 4 bases. Keep upgrading and keep making simple marine marauder medivac ghost. Kept on top of things to scout when Toss moves out to take a 4th base and when he does I would run it over easily with my big advantage. If toss were to just be happy with 3-bases and prepare an all-in to kill me, same scenario. I can still crush his army.



It would actually take a long time for Protoss to get the army he needed to actually do anything this game and this is all assuming Terran would just back off and wait for protoss to make a move. If Terran just secures 4bases, destroys the rocks etc. and attacks afterwards. 1-2 minutes after this time stamp what will Protoss have?



When TvP goes 200 food like this in big colossus vs bio battles, like 99% of the time the winner of the battle wins the game, just because it takes a huge amounts of resources and time to replenish your army.



I think Nightend would been able to save his 3rd base and let the game go on, but in 1-2 minutes ahead Terran will have a lot larger army while Protoss still only gets 1 more colossus than the one now that is about to pop and thats not going to be enough to defend Terran's future attacks. In general I think PvT favors Protoss the longer the game goes. But just because he doesn't have high templar tech on the way, charge or blink (or high forge upgrades) and only 1 robo. He has really nothing in the future that will deal with this strong bio ball. And the Terran just keeps building bio and knows that Protoss wont have any high tech stuff to deal with it.



Also I just want to explain the eco advantage I talked so much about. The thing is that he has a ton of SCVs in his main base that were to be transfered to the 4th base. And running on that gold is also so very crucial and he can drop all the mules there for sick econ. And theres no real threat of a Protoss attack coming anytime soon too. And then look at Protoss, sitting on 3base natural base is running out and his 3rd is 1/3 out. He has can't really secure a 4th base anytime soon (which would be the gold) and even when he puts it down it takes so long time to build.



The only thing I didn't go over now I think are all these phoenixes. Phoenixes don't really do anything in a game like this except for take care of drops (which Boxer was not at all in need of doing) and protecting the colossi from vikings (which they are not arguable so good at doing in the first place, hence lost that 200 food battle in a pretty shocking way). They have no energy, so they can't really go harass and get back into the game that way, and even if they did Boxer has plenty of access to all the ghosts he want with all the gas he has saved up, plus the ghosts he already has which have quite a lot of energy saved up. Just imagine this freeze frame without these 11 phoenixes and +2 phoenixes on the way. What does Protoss really have? It just seems like Protoss has something going for him with all those phoenixes but in reality they wont go useful until the toss gets 4+ colossus anyway.



In fact if I was Terran from here and had maphack I would have just stopped viking production completely and just mass up a sick bio army before the colossus number got too high and just gone for it. Toss can't have a lot of colossus in time (I'm 100% sure), he can't get amulet in time to save him and all these gateway units remember, they need charge and blink and really sentry support to be a match in a cost efficiency battle.



If I was Terran in this game I would just feel on top of the world in fact. Just the thought of winning a 200 food battle vs a colossus player makes me grin, it's not a high templar Protoss where he just amulet his way back into the game with a few warpins. I don't know how else I can explain this, you can't just lose 5 colossus, have only 1 robo and be in good shape.



Another little pointer I just wanna throw out there is that the Terran has queued up units in every single rax, and that's something you always must look out for when your analysing like this. Same with mule energy (chrono boost much less important).



Terran was clearly in an advantage and that call was easy to make. But when I had to pick if it was enough ahead or not ahead enough for a rematch that's when it gets hard. I do my really best and I try analyze everything. just in your normal TvP you do have comebacks with medivac drops, awesome high templar storms, blunders and beautiful moves left and right but this was the sort of game where its pretty straight forward, macro-oriented and the type of armies that doesn't really surprise you.



Bio ghost vs chargelot high templar, there you have some impossible fights to predict I would call it rematch I think. But here really I don't see a possibility for Protoss to get out of the unit composition hes in. It's not like you get 13 phoenixes and then say, hey ok lets switch to high templar out of the blue sky with no real economy to back it up, nope, he had to stick with massing colossus off 1 robo and gateway units simply just to stay in the game and survive.



And it's not like you can think of Boxer attacking into that and making a huge blunder and losing his advantage would be a factor. If toss had charge or blink, then yes, if he had energy for lift then yes. I see it possible Boxer attacking into that, zealots warp in and Boxer trying to kite away but phoenix kills all air and start lifting stuff up, stalkers blinking up and cleaning up. But now, no, he has nothing going for him. A more aggressive player than myself probably thinks, how would Protoss stop me attacking and kiting that 3rd base until i wear him down eventually? I'd have units streaming in and he would only be able to warp in stalkers and zealots. Normally I would say, my dear friend, when you have this clear lead,



Just back off and take 1 minute to embrace the fact your ahead in economy but in this case I would salute him and say, yes, you can probably wear Protoss down like that, as long as you make sure your 4th base is secured from that 3 o clock pylon. Else he might kill your economic lead while your slowly wasting a bit too many units.



Normally in SC2 comebacks are very possible to make when you get into these super micro intensive scenarios. Or even the multi-prong or element of surprise factors. But colossus phoenix vs bio viking is alot like ZvZ roach battle. Elements of surprise or multi-prong is pretty much out of the question, and the micro is pretty much straight forward without too many different possibilities of outcome. And the winner almost always wins the game.



The reason I milked this to death was just because these players thought I was cut for the job, I did my best and I hope everyone can understand. Also I can relate from a player point of view, there's nothing that's more frustrating when you have a disc and you have some admins who judge if you were ahead/behind enough and I hope I didn't let them down.



I would also like to say that I have never been a Boxer fan, I respect the macro type of play (like Flash) that is opposite of what Boxer usually does. So this is not some fanboy decision.



What did we learn and what will we do better next time?



Sending the replays out before vetoing process



We sent out the replay to our panel members before confirming their participation with the players. Even though we were going to give them the option to veto players we did not operate enough from the thought that this would actually happen. As such, Tyler and Cloud were sent the replay and were vetoed off. Their opinions never reached NightEnd and Boxer.



For sake of discussion and transparency we will say that Tyler thought it was over and Cloud thought it was a re-game. To be absolutely clear, we asked the players to veto and they veto'd before Cloud told us his opinion.



Players okaying a panel of less than 5 members



We understand that players are anxious and have time schedules and this influences them in their decisions. In the future we will form the a panel of five regardless of whether the players agree to be judged by a fewer number.





We sent out the replay to our panel members before confirming their participation with the players. Even though we were going to give them the option to veto players we did not operate enough from the thought that this would actually happen. As such, Tyler and Cloud were sent the replay and were vetoed off. Their opinions never reached NightEnd and Boxer.For sake of discussion and transparency we will say that Tyler thought it was over and Cloud thought it was a re-game. To be absolutely clear, we asked the players to veto and they veto'd before Cloud told us his opinion.We understand that players are anxious and have time schedules and this influences them in their decisions. In the future we will form the a panel of five regardless of whether the players agree to be judged by a fewer number. A message from Praetoriani and NightEnd



We, Praetoriani and NightEnD wish to NOT COMMENT on the issues concerning the match between BoxeR and NightEnD, it's like fighting Goliath with no stones lying around.



Moderating this topic



Here are the things you shouldn't do in this topic:

Criticize the rules and administration without a suggestion on how to do it differently or better





Criticize the players for leaving this in the hands of the TSL administration





Any offensive post towards the panel members will result in a ban. Disagreeing with them is fine nobody is saying everyone should see eye to eye. Just make sure you don't cross the line because these people stepped it up and should be thanked and praised to help us out in a touchy situation.





Incorrectly presenting facts that could be found in the OP or showing other signs of not reading the topic carefully.



We hope everyone realizes that we did our actions in pursuit of what we believe is the fairest result. This situation is very unfortunate and will result in a lot of criticism regardless of what decision we come to. We can only hope that disconnections like this one do not happen in the future, but if they do we promise to continue treating them with professionalism and care.



Regards,

TSL Staff Here are the things you shouldn't do in this topic:We hope everyone realizes that we did our actions in pursuit of what we believe is the fairest result. This situation is very unfortunate and will result in a lot of criticism regardless of what decision we come to. We can only hope that disconnections like this one do not happen in the future, but if they do we promise to continue treating them with professionalism and care.Regards,TSL Staff