LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: A short time ago the Prime Minister Tony Abbott joined me from our Canberra studio.

Prime Minister, welcome to the program for the first time since taking the top job and congratulations.

TONY ABBOTT, PRIME MINISTER: Thank you so much, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: Let's start with the carbon tax repeal bill that you introduced today. What is your next step if it doesn't make it through the Parliament?

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I don't make the assumption that it won't get through the Parliament. The Labor Party are deeply divided on this, Leigh. It's said that Bill Shorten himself would prefer to let it through. Certainly if you're fair dinkum about supporting workers' job security, about saving families $550 a year, getting power bills down by $200 a year, gas bills down by $70 a year, you will allow the carbon tax repeal legislation to go through.

LEIGH SALES: You must have a Plan A and a Plan B though. You can't rely on the Labor Party to help you with that, so what's your Plan B?

TONY ABBOTT: I assume that in the end the Labor Party will not remain in denial about the election result. Let's face it, the Labor Party wants to be competitive at the next election and you don't be competitive in a democracy by thumbing your nose at the people and saying to voters, "Look, we were right and you, the voter, was wrong," and I think they will wake up to themselves at some stage.

LEIGH SALES: You mentioned those dollar figures before. Do you stand by your promise to the Australian people that when the carbon tax is gone, electricity bills will fall by nine per cent and gas bills by seven per cent?

TONY ABBOTT: Yes, we do and we'll have the ACCC there to act as a price police when the carbon tax goes. You might remember, Leigh, a few years back the former Coalition government abolished the wholesale sales tax and we had the ACCC under Professor Fels out there monitoring the removal of that tax and making sure that the price consequences flowed through to consumers and we'll do exactly the same thing here.

LEIGH SALES: On the radio this morning, your Environment minister, Greg Hunt, said that the five per cent emissions reduction target was unconditional. Does that mean that you'll spend whatever it takes on your Direct Action policy to get to that five per cent?

TONY ABBOTT: It means, Leigh, that we are very confident, very, very confident indeed that we can achieve it with our Direct Action policy. But our Direct Action policy ...

LEIGH SALES: He didn't say very confident, he said unconditional.

TONY ABBOTT: We will achieve it, we will achieve it with the Direct Action policy as we've announced it and that policy, it's costed, it's funded and it's capped.

LEIGH SALES: So it's capped, basically, so once you get to the end of that expenditure, if you haven't got to the five per cent, that's it?

TONY ABBOTT: We will get to the five per cent.

LEIGH SALES: Your next priority after the carbon tax repeal is raising the debt ceiling by $200 billion. Will you release the Treasury advice recommending why the ceiling needs to be raised by such a substantial amount?

TONY ABBOTT: Well, what we know, Leigh, is that in Labor's last published budget update, the gross debt was forecast to reach $370 billion. We also know, because the former Treasurer told us, Mr Swan told us that there should be a $40 to $60 billion buffer for safety against contingencies and what that means is that Labor's proposed $400 billion debt ceiling won't even cover the debt that Labor left us at election time.

LEIGH SALES: But you've had updated - sorry to interrupt, Prime Minister. You've had updated information from Treasury since then. Will you release it so that we can actually, the public, have a look at the independent advice rather than take your political argument at face value?

TONY ABBOTT: Well certainly MYEFO will be the next release of that kind of information, but we're quite happy, Leigh, quite happy to organise a confidential briefing for the Opposition Leader. The Opposition Leader hasn't had an enormous amount of experience in economic portfolios and if he wants a briefing, if he doesn't trust the Government, we'll certainly organise a briefing for him from the Treasury Secretary.

LEIGH SALES: When Labor moved to raise the debt ceiling by $50 billion last year, you said in an interview that, "The Government should be forced to specifically justify this. Our money, our future is too important to be mortgaged like this without the Government giving us the strongest possible arguments for it because every dollar that they borrow has got to be repaid." Given that that's your view, I ask again: will you ask Treasury to release the briefs that they prepared for your incoming government so that we can see the independent advice that you've had as to why you need to lift the debt ceiling by this vast amount?

TONY ABBOTT: What I'm offering at this stage, Leigh, is a full and frank briefing of the Opposition Leader by Treasury Secretary Parkinson and other officials.

LEIGH SALES: But what about for the public who just wants to know what you've been advised?

TONY ABBOTT: Well, the public - Leigh, the public know because this was said by the former government that even under the former government while they were still in office, debt was going to peak, they said, at $370 billion and they've got nearly all of their forecasts wrong. They also said that they needed a $40 to $60 billion buffer. So on that basis it would be $430 billion or thereabouts. Now, this is Labor's debt. Let's be very clear about this: this is Labor's debt. And we have always been critical of Labor's addiction to debt and deficit. We want to rule a line under this. We never ever want to go anywhere near the Parliament asking for the debt ceiling to be dealt with again. That's why we think that the prudent thing to do is to set it at this level and then we the Coalition will tackle the problem that Labor has left our nation.

LEIGH SALES: I'd like to turn to Australia's relationship with Indonesia and asylum seeker policy. Let's just be clear because there's some confusing information in the public domain now. How many boatloads of asylum seekers has Indonesia declined to take back since the election?

TONY ABBOTT: Let's make two points, Leigh. First of all, the boats have not stopped, but they are stopping. The first two months of the Coalition government there were 75 per cent fewer illegal arrival by boat than there were in the last two months of the Labor government. The other point I really do want to make is that I'm not interested in scoring political points on this issue and I'm not interested in running a commentary on a commentary. So I'm just not going to comment on operational matters. I don't want to engage in all kind of banter, which may or may not be good television, but which is not going to make it easier to have the kind of relationship with the Indonesian Government that we need if we are going to finally and fully stop the boats.

LEIGH SALES: I'll come to that 75 per cent figure a bit later, but I'm not asking you to make a commentary on a commentary; I just asked a really straightforward question, which is how many boatloads of asylum seekers has Indonesia declined to take back since the election?

TONY ABBOTT: And I'm just not going to get into who did what when, who said what when. All of the boats in question were in the Indonesian search and rescue zone and I want the fullest possible cooperation between Indonesia and Australia in places where Indonesia has, if you like, the legal responsibility under the law of the sea, but Australia has more practical capacity to help.

LEIGH SALES: The Indonesian rescue agency this afternoon said that Australian authorities either towed or escorted a boat back to Indonesia last week. Is that accurate?

TONY ABBOTT: Well again, I'm just not going to comment on operational matters. Scott Morrison and General Campbell will be available on Friday and they'll deal with operational matters. Again, Leigh, ...

LEIGH SALES: Well if that - Prime Minister, if that's your position then all the Australian public can do is trust the most up-to-date information which is what has come from official Indonesian channels.

TONY ABBOTT: Leigh, I'm interested in stopping the boats; I'm not interested in providing sport for journalists, I'm not interested in starting a fight or provoking an argument; I'm interested in stopping the boats. And why I'm interested in stopping the boats is because this is a humanitarian disaster as well as an affront to our Australian sovereignty. And I know that for political purposes and for entertainment purposes and for media purposes people would love every last tidbit of information, but honestly, I think the public expects us to solve the problem, not to engage in sport for commentators.

LEIGH SALES: You say it's an affront to Australian sovereignty. We know you're committed to stopping the boats. It's fair to say from what we know though that Indonesia's calling the shots on this, aren't they? They're the ones deciding how much information goes public and they're the ones deciding if asylum seekers go back there or if they go to Christmas Island.

TONY ABBOTT: Well I accept that Indonesia is a sovereign country and I deeply respect their sovereignty and I've made that point over and over again.

LEIGH SALES: And they're calling the shots on this policy.

TONY ABBOTT: We are going to stop the boats, Leigh. I've made that absolutely crystal clear in country and out of country, that as far as we're concerned, this is a sovereignty issue. And it will be dealt with.

LEIGH SALES: You say you're going to stop the boats. There was a lot of tough talk during the election campaign about turning boats around, but it now appears that when Indonesia stands firm and refuses to take people back, Australia buckles and brings the asylum seekers back here for processing.

TONY ABBOTT: Why are you using loaded language, Leigh? You're using loaded language all the time.

LEIGH SALES: You don't think "stop the boats" is loaded?

TONY ABBOTT: No, no, stopping the boats is something that surely you all - we all want to do. I mean, you'd like to stop these boats, Leigh, surely.

LEIGH SALES: What do you see as the loaded language when I'm basically quoting what the Indonesian Government has said?

TONY ABBOTT: No, no, you said that we had somehow buckled. I mean, you're trying to turn this into a testosterone contest. Well, I'm not interested in a testosterone contest; I'm interested in stopping the boats.

LEIGH SALES: I don't want to get involved in semantics, but if you're saying that you wanted Indonesia to take people back, the Indonesians refused to do so and then you brought the people back to Australia, that is buckling.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I'm not going to use loaded language myself. I'm not going to run around beating my hairy chest and saying that I've outstared someone or that - and I'm not going to say that someone has outstared me either. This is not a question of two countries trying to prove who's the toughest with each other. It's a question of two good friends working together for an outcome which is clearly in the best interests of both of our countries.

LEIGH SALES: Given that you believe that the detailed release of information aids and abets people smugglers, you must be furious that Indonesian officials are publicly releasing so much of what you would consider to be operational material.

TONY ABBOTT: In the end all I can absolutely control is how my government responds and what I've said with the Indonesians is that we're not going to conduct dialogue through the media. If we've got something to say to the Indonesians, we'll say it to them upfront, honestly, face to face. I had an excellent discussion with the Vice President Boediono today and that's the way that I intend to conduct myself and that's the way Australian Government ministers intend to conduct ourselves in this new Coalition government.

LEIGH SALES: Have you expressed any dissatisfaction to the Indonesian Government that it's not conducting itself in the same manner?

TONY ABBOTT: Well again, I'm not in the business of lecturing people. I'm in the business of being an honest, frank, candid, trustworthy partner. I want to stop the boats for Australia's sake and for the sake of common humanity. And if I may say so, Leigh, surely all Australians, including the media, should want to stop the boats, not to provoke an argument.

LEIGH SALES: Of course all Australians would want that. But let me put to you: in your pre-election blueprint Real Solutions you wrote that, "We will restore accountability and improve transparency measures." On the evidence though you've done the opposite, haven't you, in this policy area?

TONY ABBOTT: In the end, what the public want from us is to see the boats stopped and we will be accountable to the public at the next election. But I think if you sit down and count the number of press conferences that Scott Morrison has had, he's had eight press conferences in eight weeks. I think that stacks up pretty well with the record of the former government and its Immigration ministers.

LEIGH SALES: Why is it OK to release information that 75 per cent fewer boats are arriving, but it's not OK to answer many of the questions that I've asked tonight, because you either presumably believe information is operational or not and numbers of boat arrivals is presumably operational?

TONY ABBOTT: But we never said that we weren't going to provide the numbers arriving. What we said was that we'd produce the numbers once a week as part of an operational briefing and that's exactly what we're doing. What you're asking, Leigh, is detailed questions about who said what to whom, who moved boats where and why. I'm just not going to provide that kind of information because that kind of information is unhelpful when it comes to solving this issue, which is a very serious affront to our national sovereignty and is into the bargain a humanitarian disaster.

LEIGH SALES: When we look at the leaked minutes from the Indonesian Foreign Minister's meeting with Australia's Foreign Minister and Indonesia's public statements and actions regarding asylum seeker boats, their Foreign Minister's public statements regarding allegations that Australia spies on Indonesia, is it a logical conclusion for a rational person to make that at the very least the relationship's somewhat strained?

TONY ABBOTT: It's vastly better now than it was a few months ago. The new government, for argument's sake, was never responsible for the live cattle ban disaster, we were never responsible for the Oceanic Viking fiasco, we were never responsible for the East Timor detention centre disaster.

LEIGH SALES: But you've got the spying, you've got the boat controversies.

TONY ABBOTT: Yes, and when did this so-called spying take place, Leigh?

LEIGH SALES: Well so the spying does take place?

TONY ABBOTT: When did this so-called spying allegedly take place?

LEIGH SALES: Well nobody's confirmed that it actually takes place, so do we spy on Indonesia?

TONY ABBOTT: Leigh, please, please, we don't comment on operational matters, but there have been reports in the press, and based on reports in the press, when did this so-called spying allegedly take place? Would you like to tell me?

LEIGH SALES: You tell me; you're the Prime Minister.

TONY ABBOTT: Under the former government.

LEIGH SALES: You're the Prime Minister.

TONY ABBOTT: Under the former government.

LEIGH SALES: Does it carry on now and did it not occur also under the Howard Government?

TONY ABBOTT: Leigh, all countries, all governments gather information. That's hardly a surprise. It's hardly a shock. We use the information that we gather for good, including to build a stronger relationship with Indonesia. And one of the things that I've offered to do today in my discussions with the Indonesian Vice President is to elevate our level of information sharing, because I want the people of Indonesia to know that everything, everything that we do is to help Indonesia as well as to help Australia. Indonesia is a country for which I have a great deal of respect and personal affection based on my own time in Indonesia. I want nothing, but the best for Indonesia, and I certainly want, Leigh, I certainly want the boats stopped and that is overwhelmingly in the interests of both our countries.

LEIGH SALES: Prime Minister, thank you very much for making time to speak to our audience tonight. Appreciate it.

TONY ABBOTT: Thank you.