Q&A with Bernie Sanders: What he means by socialism

The Des Moines Register interviewed Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders on Friday, the day he drew a crowd of 2,500 for a speech in Council Bluffs, the largest audience in Iowa this election cycle for a lone candidate's appearance.

Q. You've described yourself as a socialist and as a democratic socialist. Can you tell us what that means?

A. "Democratic socialism is taking a hard look at what countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway (and) Finland ... have done over the years and try to ascertain what they have done that is right, in terms of protecting the needs of millions of working families and the elderly and the children. And I think there's much that we can learn from those countries that have had social democratic governments and labor governments or whatever."

Q. How does this moment in history compare to others in which more Americans were drawn to support socialist principles?

A. "If you look at the issues — you don't have to worry about the word 'socialist' — just look at what I'm talking about. If you go out and ask the American people: Is it right that the middle class continues to disappear while there has been a massive transfer of wealth from working families to the top one-tenth of 1 percent? Trillions of dollars in the last 30 years have flown from the middle class to the top one-tenth of 1 percent. And the American people say, 'No, that's not right.'

"And if you ask the American people: Do you think it's right that despite an explosion of technology and an increase in worker productivity, the average worker is working longer hours for low wages? They say no.

"And what the American people are saying pretty loudly and clearly is they want an economy that works for ordinary Americans. For working people. Not an economy where almost all of the income and all of the wealth is going to the top 1 percent. That's what we have now."

Q. You say the American people want those things, which would mean a greater role for government. But what about poll after poll that shows such distrust and even anger toward government?

A. "What we need is a cost-effective, well-run government. In many respects we don't have it today.

"But on the other hand, if you ask people, should you get rid of Social Security, which is a major government program, they say no. Should you expand Social Security benefits? Yes. Medicare is a very, very popular program.

"But I think what's happened in recent years is the Republicans have spent a lot of time trying to cut back on government services. They're not operating as effectively as they should, and people get angry.

"So I think we have to take a hard look at all the wastes and inefficiencies in government. That's absolutely legitimate. But I think in a civilized society, government has a very important role to play in making sure all of our kids regardless of income get a good quality education, that we have a strong childcare system, that we have a tax system that is fair, and we ask the wealthy and large corporations to pay their fair share. And on climate change, we have a moral responsibility to act boldly."

Q. Back in the 1920s and 1930s, the miners and other nascent union movements pushed socialist ideas. Why hasn't that vision taken deeper root in American society?

A. "Yes, in the 1930s in the Midwest, in Wisconsin and elsewhere, there was a strong populist movement — labor parties, farmer-worker parties, and certainly in the Depression era we saw a huge growth in the trade union movement, which worked with [President Franklin D.] Roosevelt to shape Social Security and [later] Medicare and Medicaid.

"But there is no question that in the last 30 years, there has been a huge impact on workers' rights, and on government in general, by the very wealthy in this country, and by the Republican party.

"... When we lag behind many other countries on issues like medical and family leave, paid sick time, paid vacation time, the American people are saying something is fundamentally wrong with the economy of this country and the way we do economics, and people want real change."

Q. Roosevelt's New Deal was socialism under another banner. We have a long tradition of mainstream politicos co-opting "fringe" ideas that are gaining traction to keep the fringe from moving to the mainstream and eroding establishment power.

A. "Absolutely. That's right.

"If you look at what people in the 1920s in the socialist party were saying — the idea of a 40-hour work week, time-and-a-half for overtime, the right for workers to engage in collective bargaining.

"The struggle for civil rights in this country, for women's rights in this country.

"All of that came — gay rights — all of that came from strong grassroots political movements, which ended up filtering up to the top."

Q. Are you worried at all about the frontrunner in this race — Hillary Clinton — possibly co-opting so many of your ideas that she wins?

A. "Look, ideas are ideas, and people can take any ideas. I think when people look at the frontrunner and they look at me, they look at who's been talking about these ideas and implementing the ideas for the last 30, 35 years.

"... If you look at climate change, I introduced with Sen. Barbara Boxer sweeping climate change legislation. In terms of health care, we've led the effort in providing affordable health care for millions of Americans by expanding community health centers.

"The point that I'm making is that it's one thing — I don't want to be critical of anybody, anybody can say anything they want — but what people ought to do is check the record. I've been there.

"On gay rights. I voted against the 1996 so-called 'Defense of Marriage Act.' When war broke out in Iraq, I led the opposition to the war in Iraq. I voted against the Keystone pipeline.

"What people need to look at is not what you just say today. It's consistency. What you've been fighting for over the years."