Survivor: Island of the Idols has arrived! Every week, Parade.com’s Mike Bloom will bring you interviews with the castaway most recently voted off of the island.

Even before playing Survivor, Jack Nichting was ready to talk about tough issues. “I care about people,” he told me preseason. “I know everyone’s here for a reason and has a deep story. In my everyday life, I love helping people through issues. Out here, these people have very real problems that I’ve never seen or experienced before.” Jack got firsthand experience with those problems, being involved in several weighty conversations about subjects like race and gender. But amidst all the important discussions, there’s a game to be played. And Jack became its victim, as the grad student got schooled during a chaotic and idol-laden Tribal Council.

Jack entered the game as the season’s youngest castaway and used his age to his advantage with a playful and youthful attitude. But the majority of Vokai painted him as part of a group with Molly Byman and Jamal Shipman. They decided to blindside Molly at their first vote, closing out Jack and Jamal with the force of a giant clam. Jack swapped beaches alongside his closest ally, putting them in a majority of former Vokais. He continued to field the stories of his tribe, most notably in a conversation around racial biases and microaggressions with Jamal spurred on by an offensive comment from Jack. In both this interaction and a later group conversation at Tribal Council about gendered allegiances in and out of the game, Jack did what he does best: Sit back and listen. But he was deaf to the underlying motivations of his competition, specifically Kellee Kim. Kellee used a secret idol to protect tribe target Dean Kowalski, masterminding him and Noura Salman to vote out Jack as a social threat for the looming merge.

Now out of the game, Jack talks with Parade about his immediate actions following his blindside, his reactions to the critical conversations he was involved in, and how his journey on Survivor helped him emotionally reconcile tragedies in his life.

Before we get into things, I need to ask something that’s been on my mind since we talked preseason: Did you get to climb a coconut tree?

I climbed so many trees, man! I’m so bummed none of that was shown. I went in wanting to be this Ozzy-type character, and I was! On original Vokai, there were these massive super-delicious breadfruits. Every day, I climbed to get two of them. They showed Jason cutting down a papaya tree. We found a bigger one and didn’t want to cut it down, so I climbed up it to get the papaya. I was climbing trees all over the place! I wish there was a clip of it.

Well, let’s get into what led to the stop in your climb for the prize. At the moment, how did you rationalize your blindside after all of the action that occurred at Tribal Council?

It’s funny. Dean played the idol, and I get nervous immediately. One of my big regrets is not saying, “Hey, Jamal. Play the idol for me, not Noura.” That being said, imagine if Jamal is the target. He plays the idol for me, then goes home. I would have felt miserable. As soon as I saw the second vote [for me], I knew instantaneously that it was Kellee. I obviously thought she wrote my name down; I didn’t realize the complexity of her plan. But my gut told me, “I just got owned by Kellee. I know she betrayed me.”

What made you immediately suspect Kellee?

She looked really close to Dean. They hung out on the beach a lot, and I tried to force myself in that relationship. She was the one who seemed the closest to Dean.

Did you have any knowledge that Jamal had an idol before he got up to play it?

I had no idea Jamal had an idol! I’m pretty sure that’s the one secret Jamal kept from me. And it doesn’t bother me. I don’t feel betrayed by idols specifically. If you have an idol, keep it secret. If I had an idol, I wouldn’t have told Jamal.

I want to go back to Tribal Council, where Jamal’s suspicion about a women’s alliance turns into a larger conversation about women’s empowerment on and off the show. What was your reaction to that conversation?

I think it’s a little more complex than saying, “There are four women and three men.” Noura was actively talking about a women’s alliance. Janet, Jamal, Kellee, and I were very, very close, though it seems like Kellee wasn’t as close as we thought. Janet told us about Noura’s plans, while Dean pleads to Jamal, “Noura wants to go with me and the girls to get you or Jack out.” So we’re aware it’s a conversation topic.

It was so interesting to listen to this very real societal issue. I absolutely understand where Kellee’s coming from. But in this specific instance, Jamal has justification and a right to be nervous about it. Even at Tribal, Noura tells him, “If you were a woman, you’d be a part of it as well.” And Jamal’s like, “I’m not a woman, so I’m afraid.” (Laughs.) It’s a fair point from Jamal’s standpoint. It’s so complex to be talking about this topic in this specific Tribal Council. There’s someone who wants to do this all-women thing, but at the same time, we’re addressing this real, raw issue. And having this happen amidst playing the game makes it very difficult, convoluted, and challenging to articulate.

And that relates to the conversation you and Jamal have an episode ago with regards to you jokingly referring to his buff as a “do-rag.” We see you immediately regretful of the remark, and it leads to a more extensive talk that night. How did you view the events from that day?

Jamal and I were very close in the game. We got very close around Day 2 and made a deal on Day 3, which locked us in. On Day 6, we get blindsided on the Molly vote, which brings us even closer together. Since that moment, everything we did–excluding the idol–was done through the other person. We spent so much time together talking about what to do strategically, as well as getting to know on a fundamental and foundational level.

At that specific moment, I make the comment. I know immediately it wasn’t a very tasteful thing to say. It’s so interesting to watch it back and experience myself the way everyone watching it does. I know myself, and I feel very in tune with these types of conversations and issues. It doesn’t come through at that moment. I think it shows how complicated that moment is. I feel very close to Jamal, so I felt comfortable making this joke. Then I quickly realized it’s not an okay joke to make.

What was your ultimate takeaway from watching those scenes back in the edit?

My takeaway is praising Jamal in not letting that moment define me. I hope that America also doesn’t define me through that moment, that the scene shows this was a very human moment. It shows we can all learn, regardless of how we feel or how knowledgable we feel we are about all these different societal topics. There are always steps we can all take to learn about who we are as individuals, what our personal lived experience is, and how that reflects in the way the world actually works.

I also want to say that this wasn’t a strategic conversation. This was not me trying to make sure my closest ally remains my closest ally. This was a moment where my closest friend remains my closest friend. I was never worried about losing Jamal as an ally. I was more concerned about him viewing me differently as a person. I wanted to affirm, “This is who I am. I hope you continue to see me this way.” And as you’ve seen in Jamal’s interviews, he’s said we very much support each other. It’s been really cool to have that relationship that surpasses the game.

Speaking of the beginning of the game, we saw you get grouped with Jamal and Molly, as well as make a bond with Tommy. Who were you connecting with early on?

I connected with everyone! I’m literally what Tommy was in those first few days; they just didn’t highlight it much. Molly’s exit interviews speak about my game really well. I’m sitting down with every single person on that tribe and asking, “What is your dream job? What do you want to do in the future? What are you happy about in your life right now?” I’m making these very strong one-on-one connections. It’s all strictly emotional; none of it is strategic.

That’s the true reason I was left out of that first vote. No one knew who I was aligned with. No one knew what my strategy was because, in all reality, I had no strategy the first couple of days. My strategy was just to be a fun-loving dude who makes everyone laugh and smile so they’ll never want to vote me out. I quickly realized that’s not how my tribe worked. They want strategy. As soon as I got blindsided, it was like, “Game on. I need to talk strategy with people.” On Day 6, I realized I had to play the game.

What did that gameplay post-Molly blindside look like?

It’s funny. They really painted Jamal as the one who was going after Dan. But it was my idea. We were told Dan was the one who led the Molly vote. We didn’t know it was Lauren, Janet, and Kellee. Everyone was saying Dan led the charge. So we thought it would be pretty cool if we went straight for the top. It was wild to see Jamal have all these conversations when I also had them.

When you get swapped over to Lairo, how much do you and Jamal consider flipping on the people who voted Molly out?

Jamal and I go into the swap very willing to flip. We think, “Depending on how the numbers split, we can do whatever we want.” If we’re outnumbered, we’ll do what Missy and Aaron did and say we’re cool to flip. But then we see the split. It’s so difficult to deviate from a 5-3 split. We know there are probably three Tribal Councils to get to the merge. So as much as we think flipping might work, we think with the Vokai numbers, it makes more sense, in the long run, to stay together. Why make a big move right now and compromise relationships before the merge? As much as we’re bonding on Lairo, Vokai’s bonding as well. We don’t know how Lauren, Tommy, Dan, and Jason are bonding with the other four. Maybe they’re getting so close with them that they’re going to drop us. We have to go into the merge with some numbers. Flipping didn’t make sense because it was so easy.

Did seeing that Jason got voted out help hammer home that “Vokai strong” mentality?

That solidified why we had to go into the merge as a group. We don’t know how Jason went home or what really happened. But we see Tommy, Lauren, and Dan giving us emotional eye contact across the mat, saying, “Throw the challenge.” And we thought they could just be playing us. We could flip, thinking that we had them, only to realize that we don’t. So seeing Jason gone solidified that we had to go into the merge with a squad. The five of us with Karishma have to go in as a strong six. Then we can pull just one person over to give us the numbers and get past that very first merge vote.

You decide to target Dean on this vote, despite him seemingly expressing a lot of trust in you and Jamal. What was the rationale behind that choice?

The swap episode highlights why. Karishma immediately dropped all of Lairo. She came over to us, saying, “I’m all in with you guys,” so we know we have her vote. She then really fed into us that we can’t trust Dean and that he’s super close with the other Lairos. It was really hard for us to overcome the idea that if we got to the merge, Dean would go back to Lairo. At the end of the day, physicality doesn’t matter a ton in the game. It’s all about numbers, trust, and relationships. We felt a lot more comfortable from an ally standpoint than Dean. Dean was a wildcard. And why take a risk right before the merge? Let’s go with someone we know is going to stay with us, and move on from there. My big mindset was not to make a massive move before the merge. Then, at the merge, I can compromise my game.

On that note, it’s clear you and the other Vokais had the merge on the mind. What was your plan of what you would do if you had made it to the next day?

There were groupings that slowly grew. Jamal and I are inseparable, end-of-game buddies. Around that was, from my perspective, Kellee and Janet. So now we have four. Then around that was Karishma and Noura, making six. I thought we had six who wanted to go in together strong. Within that was four that wanted to move autonomously, and within that was two that wanted to move autonomously. Jamal and I planned to go in and connect with who we can. If we don’t need the six, then we don’t need the six. But if we do, then we can use that.

Also, Tommy and I were absolute bros. I knew going into the merge that Tommy and I were going to reconnect. Whatever relationships Tommy made, they were going to also be my relationships. I knew Tommy was close to Lauren, so I would build a bond with her. That was definitely my downfall. Kellee knew how close I was with people on the other side going into the merge.

I just finished your Ponderosa video, where you spoke about having a contemplative moment to think about how much your father’s passing has affected you. What was that emotional transition like from player to juror, and what led you to that epiphany?

Ponderosa is a beautiful place. I’m definitely myself at the beginning of that video, talking about how I want to approach this place. I’m not bitter or frustrated by my ending. I’m appreciative of being able to have this experience. I approached Ponderosa saying, “Now I have all day to not worry about the game and get to know people as they get voted out personally rather than strategically.” I started journaling, and that’s where stuff with my dad came up.

I started to reflect on my life and think about how I viewed the world now that this chapter of Survivor is pretty much closed. What do I want to do moving forward? I’m there for 20 days, which is a long time to do whatever you want with no worries. I would go out and have coffee on this beautiful pier and think. It was nice to realize how much of an impact my dad had on my life. I probably wouldn’t have been on Survivor if my dad hadn’t passed away. It was a big part of my game; so many of my confessionals were reflecting on my mom, dad, and sister. When you get stripped of everything in the game, you cling onto what you have at home. It was about finding the positives to this tragic situation I experienced. It made me appreciate that, though it happened, there are gifts in my life that still arise from my dad. I’m glad a part of my story was able to be shared in that video.