cuteblocks



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NewbieActivity: 5Merit: 0 Do you mine or do you bake? September 28, 2018, 06:58:13 PM #1 It's an interesting question to me. I've been mining BTC over the years but the high energy demand has made me look into other solutions. Originally a strong believer in Proof-of-Work (POW), I have recently looked deeper into Liquid Proof-of-Stake (LPOS). In other words, now not only am I mining (in fact I do no longer, I Just hodl my BTC) -- I am now baking. That's how it's called in Tezos.



Do you mine or do you bake, or do you do both?

franky1



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LegendaryActivity: 2898Merit: 1763 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 28, 2018, 07:21:00 PM #2 PoS costs nothing to create a block. and so gives no value to the cost of acquisition of the fresh minted coins.



PoW has a cost and no one is foolish to sell at a loss. this gives bitcoin an underline value.



the underlying value is not the PRICE. the underlying value is the bottomline that the market would let the price fall too



PoS in short has no bottomline.



the only thing holding up PoS is the traders support of what the community bought at and what they wont sll below.

however the PoS block creators could undersell the traders support because it cost less for the PoS to get their coins so happy to sell for less than traders. as its still profitable



EG if gold was created by signing paper. gold wont have a underlying cost built up of mining. and then those signing for new gold could sell gold at a penny and still profit. I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.

Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at

franky1



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LegendaryActivity: 2898Merit: 1763 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 28, 2018, 08:42:11 PM #5 Quote from: squatter on September 28, 2018, 07:38:39 PM Quote from: franky1 on September 28, 2018, 07:21:00 PM PoS costs nothing to create a block. and so gives no value to the cost of acquisition of the fresh minted coins.



PoW has a cost and no one is foolish to sell at a loss. this gives bitcoin an underline value.

That's inaccurate. In both consensus systems, it's not the cost that matters. Users don't care about miner/minter costs -- why would they? You're only addressing supply, not demand. [1]



Even then, your assumption that miners won't sell at a loss is not only unprovable but irrational. That's like saying no investor -- in any asset -- would ever sell at a loss. If that were true, every market would rise in perpetuity. That's untrue on its face.



Aside from speculation, users are paying for security. Users aren't buying BTC so that unprofitable miners can reach their break-even point.

That's inaccurate. In both consensus systems, it's not the cost that matters. Users don't care about miner/minter costs -- why would they? You're only addressing supply, not demand. [1]Even then, your assumption that miners won't sell at a loss is not only unprovable but irrational. That's like saying no investor -- in any asset -- would ever sell at a loss. If that were true, every market would rise in perpetuity. That's untrue on its face.Aside from speculation, users are paying for. Users aren't buying BTC so that unprofitable miners can reach their break-even point.

[1.] the cost of mining does NOT equal the current price. but does create a support of underlying value

EG when the price was $20k. the underlying support was around a few thousand

from november 2017 to date no one has taken the opportunity to sell below $5.800



this is because of a underlying value created by acquisition cost.

in those 10 months. over 65% of the community moved coins. yep 65% of all coins in circulation moved. and so those obtaining the coins when they moved hands then valued them at $5,800 or above...

mining costs curved. and is also now above $5,800. even with this summers cheaper mining rigs.



so thats alot of support not wanting to sell below $5,800

now there has been 10 months of opportunity to sell below 5,800.. no one is biting.

the VALUE, imagine it like a ground level water line.. or the water line of a bathtub people fear putting head under the water line because they can drown

the PRICE, imagine it like the waves above the water. or the bubbles of a bathtub. these can move and change all the time. people ride the waves and splash the water to create waves and stir things up to make bubbles.



its why they say the $20k PRICE was a bubble/tsunami because it flated too fast and didnt show rational reason for supporting such a high level and didnt have a good backing my a majority acquiring coins at such a high value to support it nor had mining costs accelerate to support keeping it up. and so it corrected down to more sensible levels. where the majority would refuse to sell below.

PoS coins have no underlying costs so those receiving coins from PoS would happily sell below any price/suport



again values of PoW coins are rising perpetually. but people are only looking at the tips of waves and bubbles and shouting its not perpetual.

they are not looking at the BOTTOM waterline that shows waterlevels growing slowly [1.] the cost of mining does NOT equal the current price. but does create a support of underlying valueEG when the price was $20k. the underlying support was around a few thousandfrom november 2017 to date no one has taken the opportunity to sell below $5.800this is because of a underlying value created by acquisition cost.in those 10 months. over 65% of the community moved coins. yep 65% of all coins in circulation moved. and so those obtaining the coins when they moved hands then valued them at $5,800 or above...mining costs curved. and is also now above $5,800. even with this summers cheaper mining rigs.so thats alot of support not wanting to sell below $5,800now there has been 10 months of opportunity to sell below 5,800.. no one is biting.the VALUE, imagine it like a ground level water line.. or the water line of a bathtub people fear putting head under the water line because they can drownthe PRICE, imagine it like the waves above the water. or the bubbles of a bathtub. these can move and change all the time. people ride the waves and splash the water to create waves and stir things up to make bubbles.its why they say the $20k PRICE was a bubble/tsunami because it flated too fast and didnt show rational reason for supporting such a high level and didnt have a good backing my a majority acquiring coins at such a high value to support it nor had mining costs accelerate to support keeping it up. and so it corrected down to more sensible levels. where the majority would refuse to sell below.PoS coins have no underlying costs so those receiving coins from PoS would happily sell below any price/suportagain values of PoW coins are rising perpetually. but people are only looking at the tips of waves and bubbles and shouting its not perpetual.they are not looking at the BOTTOM waterline that shows waterlevels growing slowly I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.

Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at

oriontab



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Jr. MemberActivity: 336Merit: 3 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 28, 2018, 11:16:11 PM #8 Quote from: franky1 on September 28, 2018, 07:21:00 PM PoS costs nothing to create a block. and so gives no value to the cost of acquisition of the fresh minted coins.



PoW has a cost and no one is foolish to sell at a loss. this gives bitcoin an underline value.



the underlying value is not the PRICE. the underlying value is the bottomline that the market would let the price fall too



PoS in short has no bottomline.



the only thing holding up PoS is the traders support of what the community bought at and what they wont sll below.

however the PoS block creators could undersell the traders support because it cost less for the PoS to get their coins so happy to sell for less than traders. as its still profitable



EG if gold was created by signing paper. gold wont have a underlying cost built up of mining. and then those signing for new gold could sell gold at a penny and still profit.

The concept of an underlining value is something very important that persons seem to forget. For example, it costs on the average about 6k USD to mine one bitcoin. So one can say 1bitcoin is worth at least 6k worth of energy. POW is expensive but it is still my best. Don't forget the security advantages also The concept of an underlining value is something very important that persons seem to forget. For example, it costs on the average about 6k USD to mine one bitcoin. So one can say 1bitcoin is worth at least 6k worth of energy. POW is expensive but it is still my best. Don't forget the security advantages also ( ( ( GXBLOCKS.com - 15% PRESALE BONUS ) ) )

───── Cloud Mining Contracts ─────

gandame



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Hero MemberActivity: 910Merit: 505 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 28, 2018, 11:16:45 PM #9 Quote from: aryaadikariyansyahsuwarto on September 28, 2018, 10:52:30 PM I really want to do bitcoin mining, only here no one teaches and supports. So now I'm only a true bitcoin hunter through bounty. But I didn't give up looking for friends who could teach me to mine bitcoin ... !!

Me too i want to try but the problem is electricity here in our place are very expensive thats is why i change my mind. Now i have only a little bit of bitcoin and i want to hold it for a long time and wait that bitcoin price will goes up. Me too i want to try but the problem is electricity here in our place are very expensive thats is why i change my mind. Now i have only a little bit of bitcoin and i want to hold it for a long time and wait that bitcoin price will goes up.

mostkey



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Sr. MemberActivity: 742Merit: 253 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 28, 2018, 11:23:00 PM #10 I was not very interested in mining, because high electricity costs, which might not be comparable to the income I got from mining, forced me to just hold BTC, even though I was very interested in mining, but after I tried mining in a few months, It does not cover the cost of electricity and maintenance of the equipment that I have to spend every month, because the hold asset remains the best step I can do to date.

franky1



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LegendaryActivity: 2898Merit: 1763 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 29, 2018, 04:52:02 AM

Last edit: September 29, 2018, 05:16:55 AM by franky1 #15 Quote from: squatter on September 28, 2018, 09:04:11 PM yet. It was at that level just last month, so your point isn't very convincing. Either way, you're using arbitrary numbers to cherry-pick. Some miners definitely have costs below your arbitrary estimates. Throwing out $5,800 as "the cost to mine a bitcoin" (for the last 10 months?) is totally inaccurate and overgeneralizing. You're just cherry-picking to fit the recent lows on the chart to support your illogical narrative.



Logically, miner costs don't "create a support." Price support implies demand. Whether miners withhold newly mined coins from the market doesn't matter if there is no demand.



Quote from: franky1 on September 28, 2018, 08:42:11 PM this is because of a underlying value created by acquisition cost.

You keep saying that, but there's no evidence to support that idea. It's logically incorrect, since you aren't explaining how demand exists at that price. Mining costs do not create demand from users and investors.

Perhaps no one has taken the opportunity. It was at that level just last month, so your point isn't very convincing. Either way, you're using arbitrary numbers to cherry-pick. Some miners definitely have costs below your arbitrary estimates. Throwing out $5,800 as "the cost to mine a bitcoin" (for the last 10 months?) is totally inaccurate and overgeneralizing. You're just cherry-picking to fit the recent lows on the chart to support your illogical narrative.Logically, miner costs don't "create a support." Price support implies. Whether miners withhold newly mined coins from the market doesn't matter if there is no demand.You keep saying that, but there's no evidence to support that idea. It's logically incorrect, since you aren't explaining howexists at that price. Mining costs do not create demand from users and investors.

logical:

i do not just pick a price. i look at

price

time tested

dip retests

uxto set of coins moved to support x price

mining costs

which pools are not as market reacters/droppers and which are OTC non market affecting pools

and other things.



i take a bottomline good healthy time period(10 months) that has had a good amount of retests(dips) that has seen more than 50% of coins in circulation move, etc etc

..

miner demand:

if it costs $6600 to mine and some miners who are price reactors. see it costs them 200 days and $6600+ to get 1BTC.. they will realise.. heck why mine. ill just buy coins instantly now, save $200 and 200 days

thus if the price remains below mining costs. miners buy more instead of mine. because its cheaper and faster



logical:i do not just pick a price. i look atpricetime testeddip retestsuxto set of coins moved to support x pricemining costswhich pools are not as market reacters/droppers and which are OTC non market affecting poolsand other things.i take a bottomline good healthy time period(10 months) that has had a good amount of retests(dips) that has seen more than 50% of coins in circulation move, etc etc..miner demand:if it costs $6600 to mine and some miners who are price reactors. see it costs them 200 days and $6600+ to get 1BTC.. they will realise.. heck why mine. ill just buy coins instantly now, save $200 and 200 daysthus if the price remains below mining costs. miners buy more instead of mine. because its cheaper and faster I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.

Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at

LightningFury



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Hero MemberActivity: 687Merit: 509 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 29, 2018, 02:38:29 PM #17 I started Bitcoin mining in 2011 with my Radeon HD 6870, the reference card for Bitcoin mining.

I have never mined continuously and finally stopped mining altogether in 2013.

And now I'm a full time baker 24/7/365 and do not hold BTC any more.

cuteblocks



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NewbieActivity: 5Merit: 0 Re: Do you mine or do you bake? September 29, 2018, 06:38:38 PM #18 It's very interesting to read everyone's thoughts. Thanks for posting!



What I really love about baking is that it can be done on a machine with little power. Ideally on small systems without any fans or moving parts. And one never has to expose any private key because baking can be with a ledger nano s hardware wallet device. It's pretty elegant. Additionally, via delegation, there's no need to bake yourself, you can just delegate your tokens if that is your choice. Sit back and relax. Just thinking about my loud Ethereum mining machine does not feel like a lot of fun in comparison. Not to mention massive datacenters with giant energy demand. There's a place for that, but we should certainly rethink if that is sustainable in the future.



I've always loved mining and participating in these cryptonetworks so if there are ways for me to take part and to mine or bake or stake, then I'm all ears. I really like to earn cryptocurrency

