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Two candidates on the ballot in Vermont’s gubernatorial primaries have notably nontraditional backgrounds. Keith Stern, who runs a produce market in White River Junction, has little prior political experience. Ethan Sonneborn has less: he’s a 14-year-old rising ninth-grader at Mount Abraham Union Middle/High School.

Both are struggling against anonymity. Recent polling data shows that Sonneborn has the lowest name recongition of five Democratic contenders, and Stern is facing well-known incumbent Gov. Phil Scott in the Republican race.

But both say detractors ought to take their campaigns more seriously.

“I’m not mocking the process — I’m running for governor,” Sonneborn says. “If my age is really going to stop you from voting for practical progressivism, then I’m sorry I lost your vote.”

“I’m strong-willed; I take a stand,” Stern says. “We can see Phil Scott had lots of experience, Peter Shumlin had lots of experience. From my point of view, they’re both failures as governors.”

On this week’s podcast, VTDigger’s Colin Meyn went to their home turf to quiz both candidates on the issues facing the state — and about why their platforms make them worthy of the governor’s office.

In a couple weeks, Vermonters will head to the polls for primary elections. In each of those races, one candidate is running a notably unconventional campaign.

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Colin Meyn: Keith Stern runs a grocery store in White River Junction. Keith is a very conservative man. He hasn’t been involved much in politics. But when he sees prominent political figures who aren’t representing the issues that he wants represented, the way he responds to that is to throw his hat in the ring.

Ethan Sonneborn — he’s fourteen years old. He talked about reading the Constitution in school and realizing that there’s no age limit, and deciding that he was going to go for it. The Attorney General has since weighed in and said that this is legitimate and that he’s eligible to be governor.

Our editor Colin Meyn met up with both candidates last week. One thing he learned is how these two are sizing each other up. Here’s Keith:

Keith Stern: I think it’s an absolute farce. He couldn’t even sign a consent form to get on the ballot. I mean, come on. It’s supposed to be, the candidate signs the consent form. You don’t have your mother sign the consent form. What’s he going to do if he gets into office, he can sign any bills into law. Going to have his mother or father sign it for him? Come on. They shouldn’t have let him be on the ballot. He’s 14. He’s not even supposed to be putting in the hours that he is. He’s probably staying up past his bedtime for some of the events.

Ethan Sonneborn: I disagree with him on just about everything, from what I can tell. And I think that it’s always bad when a political party starts to drift further to the right. So, you know, if I’m not gonna wade into Democratic Party inner party conflicts, I’m definitely not going to wade into inner party conflict with the Republicans. But I am going to say that I think Keith Stern is conservative enough that it’s out of the mainstream with Vermonters.

What made you want to reach out to these two candidates specifically?

Colin Meyn: A big part of it is the fact that they’re not being taken seriously by a lot of people. And wanting to give them the opportunity to defend their candidacies and talk about what it is that motivates them. And also both of them are probably not going to be in the race very long, so giving them a chance to say their piece before we move on to the general election in a few weeks.

It might seem obvious, but why do you say they’re not going to be in the race for very long?

Colin Meyn: Phil Scott, the incumbent governor — his approval ratings are fairly low right now. But he’s a very well-known politician. Ninety-four per cent of the state knows who he is. As opposed to Keith Stern: about a quarter of Vermonters who are eligible to vote know who he is. So I think the basic political calculus of it makes it very, very difficult.

Turnout’s going to be very low. It’s just hard to imagine a scenario where the governor doesn’t prevail in the Republican primary.

Ethan is 14 years old. He’s going up against people who have very low name recognition, but are fairly prominent people within certain circles of Vermont society. You presume that they’re raising more money, they have more sophisticated campaigns, that they’re just going to get more people out. But I think ultimately his age is going to be a deciding factor in that one.

These two sound pretty different. What do they have in common?

Colin Meyn: Certainly, neither of them thinks that Phil Scott is doing a very good job as Vermont’s governor.

Keith Stern: Well, first of all, he’s not a conservative. He’s a progressive. And he really worked from a position of weakness instead of a position of power, position of strength. He had the pot legislation. He had the gun legislation. Of course he supported both of them, but he signed that into law and had no bargaining chips when it came down to getting the budget done. You got to have bargaining chips. You’ve got to have positions of strength to get the things you want accomplished. And he just let that slide away.

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Colin Meyn: So you think rather than making the commitments to weed and guns earlier on the session, that he could have held on to those as part of the budget negotiation?

Keith Stern: Absolutely, yeah.

Ethan Sonneborn: I don’t think he has the right approach to governing. I don’t think you can just ignore the Legislature until something winds up on your desk. And I don’t think you can veto budgets just because Democrats support them.

You know, he’s not as bad as Republicans come. He’s a good guy. I’ve met him. I like him as a person. I just don’t think he has showed the right leadership skills or the right strength in dealing with other people in his party who are farther right and who have pressured him to do some things, like his — I’m going to say — pretty radical education plan.

Colin Meyn: They also both feel like they’re sort of misunderstood candidates, that people criticize them for various reasons.

In Keith Stern’s case, that he has no place running for governor. But also that he’s a one-issue candidate, which he takes issue with. His big issue is taxes, although in his run against Phil Scott this time around, guns have sort of been the issue that has defined him, perhaps despite himself.

Keith Stern: I never even talked about it until the gun legislation came up and I’ve been asked about it. All I put out was one statement that I support the Second Amendment, and the Second Amendment says people’s rights won’t be infringed.

I let it go with that. But people have been on me constantly about it. And for a lot of people, it’s their only issue. People are saying, well, I’m a one-issue candidate. But if you look at my website, look at my Facebook page, it’s far from that. I’m still not talking about gun legislation or regulation or anything, other than to say I support the Second Amendment and Article 16. And they’re both very clear that people’s rights to own won’t be infringed. People have to the right to defend themselves.

Colin Meyn: And Ethan obviously, he says that people see his campaign being a joke, that he’s sort of mocking the system. He says that’s not the case, that he is a legitimate candidate and wants people to take him seriously.

Ethan Sonneborn: We know what happens when we elect the same old kind of politicians. We know what happens when we elect politicians who have been working within the system as adults their entire lives.

There is a misconception that I’m mocking the process. I’m not mocking the process — I’m running for governor. It’s time for new generation of leadership. And if my if my age is really going to stop you from voting for practical progressivism, then I’m sorry to have lost your vote. But this is a legitimate campaign and we’re advocating on issues that matter.

You mentioned their opinions on specific issues. Let’s talk about some of those. What did they tell you about legalization of marijuana?

Colin Meyn: Ethan Sonneborn is all for it. He says, now that there’s partial legalization, there should be full legalization. People who want to smoke will smoke, and we should make sure that it’s safe.

Ethan Sonneborn: I support a tax and regulate system because I don’t think it makes sense to

to be able to have marijuana but not to be able to buy it. I think we need to tax it because that brings in revenue. And I think we need to regulate it because we need to make sure that marijuana is safe. We tax virtually everything else and we need to tax marijuana too.

Colin Meyn: For Keith Stern, he didn’t agree with the partial legalization, and he doesn’t necessarily agree with full legalization. But the most important thing for him is that voters have a chance to weigh in on it.

Keith Stern: Every other state that’s legalized it, the voters had a chance to put in their say. And we didn’t give them that opportunity. And as governor, if the Legislature decides to go further to do the tax and regulate, I’m going to insist that voters get heard first, and have them educated on both sides of the issue and then use some kind of mechanism to let them be heard. Right now, we don’t have the ability to let them be heard. But we could do it through — even just a poll, an online poll somehow.

What did they tell you about their stance on gun policy?

Colin Meyn: Ethan Sonneborn is very much with the mainstream of his party in saying that taking guns away from people is not what he wants, but he does think that there’s a value in putting restrictions on certain high capacity magazines. And that that’s not going to fix the whole problem, but it’s a step in the right direction.

Ethan Sonneborn: I’m not talking about the cops busting down your door and taking all your guns. That’s hyperbolic rhetoric from the other side of the narrative. But I do think that guns are a long term solution. You can pull the trigger all day. But if you don’t have access to high capacity magazines and ammunition, that’s an effective short term solution is to

limit access to the part of the gun that does the actual killing.

Colin Meyn: Keith Stern said that he doesn’t like to be defined by that issue. But that he is very much aligned with the sort of sportsmens’ groups who have come out against pretty much any form of gun control.

Keith Stern: I have no problem. These are law abiding citizens that are just using their guns for sport, target shooting, hunting, whatever, collecting. There’s no mass murderers in any of these people. So I have no problem standing with them at all.

Colin Meyn: How much do you think it helps you in the primary against Gov. Scott to be seen as the candidate who’s aligned with that point of view?

Keith Stern: It’s a good question. Ask me on August 15th and I’ll give you an answer. There’s some people that are are mad at me for taking a stance like that and is a lot that support me for it. Then you get those that want to write in a democrat on the on the ballot because they think I don’t — I’m not strong enough on gun legislation. I mean, my position is absolute that the constitutions have to be followed.

What was their argument about taxes?

Colin Meyn: Keith Stern, many times he circles back to cutting taxes as his main issue. He wants taxes cut on businesses. He thinks that the reason a lot of people aren’t investing in Vermont is because of the high taxes. He thinks that there’s too much red tape.

Keith Stern: I’d like to see the property tax go down by running the schools more efficiently. But I’d like to see the sales tax decrease. And if we can work it out, eliminate it completely. So the businesses along the border, the New Hampshire border, could be competitive. You see right here and in the Upper Valley, the difference between Vermont and New Hampshire for business. If we’re competitive, we could bring some of that business to Vermont.

Colin Meyn: Ethan Sonneborn said he was for a progressive tax. Presumably that would be increasing taxes on the wealthiest Vermonters and that, again with the mainstream of his party, that would be an important way of investing in the state’s future.

Ethan Sonneborn: I think that middle class families and working class families, there might come a time when it is absolutely imperative to the strength of our economy that we give them tax relief. But we’re not gonna do it by cutting taxes across the board, because then the state’s just going to hemorrhage money. The national tax legislation is an excellent example of what we wouldn’t do.

Taxes are a complex issue. But when it comes down to it, middle and working class families shouldn’t be choosing between paying their taxes and, you know, sending their kids to college.

What did they tell you about what they see as the state’s relationship to what the Trump administration is doing?

Colin Meyn: I think they had fairly predictable positions on the president in some ways. Keith Stern said he didn’t vote for Donald Trump, but now that he’s in office, he agrees with his sort of “law and order” approach to immigration.

Keith Stern: Well, I’m a constitutionalist. So on immigration, we have to follow the Constitution. We shouldn’t be allowing illegals to come here. So I would work with ICE. It’s just the right thing to do. There’s a legal way to get to this country, a procedure to get here. And if they’re not willing to follow it, then they’ve got to go back.

Colin Meyn: And did you vote for Donald Trump?

Keith Stern: No, no, because I thought he was gonna be a liberal. I was convinced that he was going to be a New York liberal, like Ted Cruz said, and I didn’t want to see a liberal as president.

I like some of the things he’s done. I think he’s done a lot of good. I’m not convinced about the tariffs. I don’t see them helping. But I might be wrong. Maybe he knows what he’s doing there.

Colin Meyn: And Ethan Sonneborn sees himself as being in a very different position on almost everything from the president. And said that he wouldn’t engage in Twitter battles with the president if he were governor, but he would certainly stand up on issues that were important to Vermonters.

Ethan Sonneborn: I think it’s I think it’d be counterproductive for me as governor to spend all my time engaging in rhetoric or getting into Twitter battles with Donald Trump. But I will say this: I was a Bernie Sanders supporter, then a Hillary Clinton supporter. I believe that beyond our politics, Donald Trump is unfit to be president. I believe that he has betrayed the people who elected him. I believe he’s betrayed working class families, people who really thought he could make change in the system. But like I said before, I’m not running for federal office. So I won’t have a say in whether we impeach Donald Trump, or whether we pressure him to resign. But I will say this: if I am governor, and Donald Trump does something that hurts Vermonters, I will speak up. And I will I will be abundantly clear that I won’t just issue lukewarm statements of disagreement with the president when he’s wrong.

You asked each of them, why run for governor and not look for some down-ticket race that might be more attainable? What’d they tell you?

Colin Meyn: Their answers to this surprised me a bit in both cases. Keith talked about how he’s from Windsor County, which has some pretty liberal legislators. And that he’d pretty much have no chance running for local offices, and that if he were to win that office he’d basically be battling with his constituents on their ideas about everything throughout his term.

Keith Stern: Number one, my views would not get me elected. Number two, if I managed to get elected, I’m going to be clashing with them full time. And I just wouldn’t have the patience to have to struggle to be heard among the liberal voices there.

As governor, they would really have to listen to me, you know, because it would be a partnership instead of I’m one of, you know, whatever amount depending on if it was the Senate or the House.

Colin Meyn: Ethan said that he respects the legislators who are running this year, wouldn’t necessarily want to compete with them. But also recognizes that he has a very nontraditional candidacy, and thinks that a statewide platform is a better place to make the points he’s trying to make.

Sonneborn: I’m confident that any of the four Democratic candidates are running for the two House seats here would be exceptional. I think that when you’re running a campaign as unconventional as mine, you need to spread your message. And I think the only way to do that was by getting people around the state to understand what I was aiming for. And why it was important to get more people involved in the process.

We’ve talked about why, on paper, their campaigns are unconventional. But how much do the two of them acknowledge that their campaigns are unconventional?

Colin Meyn: Yeah. I mean, when you ask them questions about how they’re going about campaigning and what their strategies are, it sounds very conventional, right? They’re talking about going out and meeting the voters and letting them know what their ideas are. Obviously, for Ethan Sonneborn, it’s a bit different, because he’s got to ask someone for a ride whenever he wants to go outside of Bristol to meet the voters. And, you know, Keith said that he’s trying to get around the state to talk to people. Both of them are taking part in the debates that are starting this week.

So they both resemble fairly standard campaigns. I think it’s more about the individual that’s sort of out of the ordinary.

It seems like with both of them, there’s sort of a contradiction: They won’t cop to being longshot candidates, but at the same time, being unconventional and being a nontraditional politician is kind of part of their pitch.

Colin Meyn: Yeah, absolutely. They both say that they’re fed up with politics as usual, that when you push them on what makes them a legitimate candidate, they say that the politicians that Vermont has been electing for governor — particularly Phil Scott — isn’t doing a good job. It’s not working. You know, Phil Scott’s a very experienced politician. He served a number of terms in the Senate. So you know, if someone like that isn’t doing a good job, then why not wing it and vote for someone who’s completely out of the ordinary and has a totally different perspective on the whole process?

Ethan Sonneborn: I don’t think age matters. I think it’s whether your ideas are current or new that matters. I think the age of your ideas matters. I don’t think the age of the candidate matters. It’s like I’ve been saying, I think my message message resonates regardless of the messenger.

Keith Stern: I don’t know, take a chance. Have faith. I mean, I don’t know what else to tell them. I mean, we can see Phil Scott had lots of experience, Peter Shumlin had lots of experience. And from my point of view, they’re both failures as governors. So they can see my positions, and I’m strong willed. I take a stand.

The primary elections are August 14th. Starting next week, head to vtdigger.org/elections to check out our voter guides and all of our recent coverage. You can hear more from Keith, Ethan, and their opponents in our two primary forums with CCTV. The Republican forum is on our site now, and the Democrat forum will stream live on Thursday, August 2nd.