User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight 7 years ago #1



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Just want to use this thread to collect what I have been reading and analyzing on the many problem about stats. Hopefully these discussions can end some of your confusion.



How do strength and dexterity affect physical skills



Source of data: http://bozumemo.blogspot.com/2013/06/blog-post_8579.html



From the source I took the strength and dexterity data, as well as the damage for Kairikirenshin (Berserker God in SJ) as the outcome. There are totally 10 demons' data, and I did a regression analysis using strength, dexterity, and both to predict the damage. Here are the results:



1) Strength:

Damage = 98.79 + 2.05 x Strength

R^2 = 97.5%



2) Dexterity:

Damage = 88.37 + 2.31 x Dexterity

R^2 = 98.8%



3) Both strength and dexterity

Damage = 91.02 + 1.51 x Dexterity + 0.74 x Strength

R^2 = 99.4%



From this data, it looks like scenario 3 predicts the most of the damage pattern, and the coefficients 1.5 and 0.7 are also quite convincing. Additionally, there has been information (i) on the wiki saying that strength contributes some to the physical skill damage, while dexterity contributes a lot more.



We probably need more data, but at this point I'd suggest going for Dex because the return seems to be higher.



(i) http://www34.atwiki.jp/megaten4/pages/273.html



Codes for R in case if you'd like to try:



str <- c(37,63,49,68,35,33,53,20,18,83)

dex <- c(41,63,45,62,32,37,59,22,17,74)

damage <- c(180,230,200,240,160,170,220,140,130,260)



summary(lm(damage~str))

summary(lm(damage~dex))

summary(lm(damage~dex+str)) Sorry... accidentally locked my previous topic... here is version 2.<><><><><>Just want to use this thread to collect what I have been reading and analyzing on the many problem about stats. Hopefully these discussions can end some of your confusion.Source of data: http://bozumemo.blogspot.com/2013/06/blog-post_8579.htmlFrom the source I took the strength and dexterity data, as well as the damage for Kairikirenshin (Berserker God in SJ) as the outcome. There are totally 10 demons' data, and I did a regression analysis using strength, dexterity, and both to predict the damage. Here are the results:1) Strength:Damage = 98.79 + 2.05 x StrengthR^2 = 97.5%2) Dexterity:Damage = 88.37 + 2.31 x DexterityR^2 = 98.8%3) Both strength and dexterityDamage = 91.02 + 1.51 x Dexterity + 0.74 x StrengthR^2 = 99.4%From this data, it looks like scenario 3 predicts the most of the damage pattern, and the coefficients 1.5 and 0.7 are also quite convincing. Additionally, there has been information (i) on the wiki saying that strength contributes some to the physical skill damage, while dexterity contributes a lot more.We probably need more data, but at this point I'd suggest going for Dex because the return seems to be higher.(i) http://www34.atwiki.jp/megaten4/pages/273.htmlCodes for R in case if you'd like to try:str

User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight (Topic Creator) 7 years ago #2 About which status determines physical, gun, and magical damages



Source: http://bozumemo.blogspot.com/2013/06/blog-post_8084.html



Physical damage

Setting: Yoshtsune using Occult Flash



1a) Str 96, Dex 80, Mag 73 -- Damage: ~240

1b) Str 156, Dex 80, Mag 73 -- Damage: ~280

1c) Str 96, Dex 140, Mag 73 -- Damage: ~330

1d) Str 96, Dex 80, Mag 133 -- Damage: ~240



Analysis: 1b has 60 higher strength and you can see that damage is 40 higher. This agree with the 0.7 damage per strength hypothesis.



1c has 60 higher dexterity and the damage is 90 higher, aligning well with 1.5 damage per dexterity hypothesis.



Comparing 1d and 1a, magic appears to have no influence on physical skills.



Gun damage



Setting: Flynn using Riot Gun +8



2a) Str 142, Dex 247, Mag 115 -- Critical damage 940 (Normal damage ~ 627), Smirking + critical 1470

2b) Str 202, Dex 247, Mag 115 -- Critical damage1010 (Normal damage ~ 673), Smirking + critical 1580

2c) Str 142, Dex 307, Mag 115 -- Critical damage 1070 (Normal damage ~ 713), Smirking + critical 1690

2d) Str 142, Dex 247, Mag 175 -- Critical damage 940 (Normal damage ~ 627), Smirking + critical 1470



Analysis: 2b has 60 higher strength than 2a, and the normal damage is 46 higher. 46/60 is again about 0.7~0.8.



2c has 60 higher dexterity than 2a, and the normal damage is 86 higher. 86/60 is 1.43, close to 1.5.



2d has 60 higher magic than 2a, and damage remains unchanged. So magic has no say on gun damage neither.



Magic damage



Setting: Flynn using Antikhton +8



3a) Str 142, Dex 247, Mag 115 -- Damage: ~340

3b) Str 202, Dex 247, Mag 115 -- Damage: ~340

3c) Str 142, Dex 307, Mag 115 -- Damage: ~340

3d) Str 142, Dex 247, Mag 175 -- Damage: ~430



Analysis: Logically, only magic affects magical damage. The rate is about 1.5 points of additional damage per magic stat.

User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight (Topic Creator) 7 years ago #3 Is the Strength 100 sword, Plasma Sword, such a BFD?



Source: http://bozumemo.blogspot.com/2013/06/blog-post_14.html



Here this report is on comparing plasma sword (the strongest weapon in the game that requires 100 strength to obtain) and a couple other weapons. I hope this can open up some alternative play style for those who wish to be physically focused.



Setting 1: MC with plasma sword



1a) Str 142, critical damage ~ 310, smirking critical damage ~ 500

1b) Str 262, critical damage ~ 370, smirking critical damage ~ 590



For physical strike with one hit, each additional strength point adds 0.3 damage (I'll cover this later, if interest is there.) And critical hit damage is 1.5 times of normal damage. So, the actual normal damages are ~ 207 and 247, 40 points more. The strength difference is 120, so the magic 0.3 again.



Setting 2: MC with skull scepter

2a) Str 142, critical damage ~ 125 x 4, smirking critical damage ~ 200 x 4

2b) Str 262, critical damage ~ 190 x 4, smirking critical damage ~ 300 x 4



Notice that skull scepter always deliver four hits at multiple enemies (low hit rate, however). The total damage is higher than plasma sword, which only delivers one hit.



Setting 3: MC with head-hunting spoon

2a) Str 142, critical damage ~ 120 at first, 70 after x 3-6 hits, smirking critical damage ~ 170 first, 120 after x 3-6 hits.

2a) Str 262, critical damage ~ 180 at first, 120 after x 3-6 hits, smirking critical damage ~ 270 first, 180 after x 3-6 hits.



Head-hunting spoon hits 3 to 6 times, the first hit has higher damage (also has low hti rate, however). The 0.3 damage per strength is actually lower in subsequent hits if your weapon hits multiple times.



Analysis: Plasma sword is the strongest weapon in power, but when compounded with hit #, there are other option. Now, as a strength-based MC, the decision would be if you'd like to focus on one-hit or multiple-hit. If you'd like to use skull scepter or head-hunting spoon, you'll have to remember balance your Agility (which improves hit rate) and/or Luck (which improves critical hit.)



In the blog, the writer comments that he is a luck type player (his MC has 400+ luck that he failed to get any normal damage data) so he favors skull scepter, which can cause critical in any of the four hits. He comments that head-hunting spoon seems to lack that perpetual critical hit capability.



Lastly, he also listed the damage of Riot Gun:



Setting 2: MC using Riot Gun

2a) Str 142, Dex 247, critical damage ~ 950, smirking critical damage ~ 1480

2b) Str 262, Dex 247, critical damage ~ 1070, smirking critical damage ~ 1690



which pretty much tops the chart. However, it doesn't say that if he has equipped the gun damage magnifying accessory.

User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight (Topic Creator) 7 years ago #4 Does any of the stats affect HP/MP growth?



No, you'll get about 7 HP and 3 MP for each level. The growth is linear.



Source: http://gamers-high.com/megami4/data/human.html

User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight (Topic Creator) 7 years ago #5 Damage modifiers



This is not really about stats... but I'll just throw them all here.



Source: http://www34.atwiki.jp/megaten4/pages/207.html



This data are damage modifications under different condition. The poster use Ancient Day to cast Thunder Reign 10 times for each condition, then compared them to the vanilla damage to come up with the modifiers.



Nothing modified: 100%

Smirking: 160%

Target has cold status: 101%

User used Panic Magic: 125%

User used Concentrate: 249%

User used Reima Shuuchuu (beefed up Concentrate): 297%

Tarukaja x 1: 121%

Tarukaja x 2: 140%

Tarukaja x 3: 160%

Rakunda x 1: 120%

Rakunda x 2: 141%

Rakunda x 3: 160%

Tarukaja x 3 & Rakunda x 3: 255%

Pleroma: 126%

Giga Pleroma: 150%

Double Pleroma: 188%

All of the above: 4432%



Notice that the actual output should be about 7200% in the last one... something around 1.6 is ruled out when all of the above happened.



An it seems to be about either of this three:



Double Pleroma & Tarukaja x 3 & Smirking: 298%



The actual should be around 460%... the smirking multiplier seems to be omitted when some other multiplier is in effect.



My hypothesis (really wild guess here) is that smirking status may actually be a temporary ~kaja +3 bonus. When kaja is already maxed out, smirking or not has no effect (however smirking will still null the character's weaknesses, which is still wonderful). Probably more experiments are needed. This is not really about stats... but I'll just throw them all here.Source: http://www34.atwiki.jp/megaten4/pages/207.htmlThis data are damage modifications under different condition. The poster use Ancient Day to cast Thunder Reign 10 times for each condition, then compared them to the vanilla damage to come up with the modifiers.Nothing modified: 100%Smirking: 160%Target has cold status: 101%User used Panic Magic: 125%User used Concentrate: 249%User used Reima Shuuchuu (beefed up Concentrate): 297%Tarukaja x 1: 121%Tarukaja x 2: 140%Tarukaja x 3: 160%Rakunda x 1: 120%Rakunda x 2: 141%Rakunda x 3: 160%Tarukaja x 3 & Rakunda x 3: 255%Pleroma: 126%Giga Pleroma: 150%Double Pleroma: 188%All of the above: 4432%Notice that the actual output should be about 7200% in the last one... something around 1.6 is ruled out when all of the above happened.An it seems to be about either of this three:Double Pleroma & Tarukaja x 3 & Smirking: 298%The actual should be around 460%... the smirking multiplier seems to be omitted when some other multiplier is in effect.

User Info: QuadForce878 QuadForce878 7 years ago #6 So Str 142, Dex 307, along with a Riot +8 would be ideal for min/maxing Gun Damage?

User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight (Topic Creator) 7 years ago #7 QuadForce878 posted...

So Str 142, Dex 307, along with a Riot +8 would be ideal for min/maxing Gun Damage?



Nope, if you have 142 + 307 = 449 pts and you'd like to max gun damage, dump them all to Dex. This person just tinker around his/her character to see the effect of upping/lowering each stat on different types of damage. The actual stats don't carry specific meanings. Nope, if you have 142 + 307 = 449 pts and you'd like to max gun damage, dump them all to Dex. This person just tinker around his/her character to see the effect of upping/lowering each stat on different types of damage. The actual stats don't carry specific meanings.

User Info: penguin_knight penguin_knight (Topic Creator) 7 years ago #8 On magical skills: Base power of some magical attacks



Source: http://www34.atwiki.jp/megaten4/pages/284.html



As we have previously covered in this thread, only Mag affects the magical damage output. The general factor is 1.5 point more damage for each addition point of Mag. The final number is then added to the base power of the spell's. That forms the foundation damage, which will then be adjusted by many factors such as ~kaja, ~kunda, Pleroma, and +# etc.



Here are the base powers of most of the damage-based magical skills (may not be complete and the translation may be slightly off because I play the JPN version).



Single target elemental

Agi, Bufu, Zio, Zan: 26

Agirao, Bufula, Zioga, Zanma: 46

Agidyne, Bufudyne, Ziodyne, Zandyne: 70

Trisagion, Killing Wind: 100



Hit-all elemental

Maragi, Mahabufu, Mahazio, Mahazan: 20

Maragion, Mahabufula, Mahazioga, Mahazanma: 40

Cold World: 50 (plus instant death, which relies on Luck)

Charming Bolt: 50 (plus confusion, which relies on Luck)

Maragidyne, Mahabufudyne, Mahaziodyne, Mahazandyne: 60

Thunder Reign: 80

DLC elemental of the four arch-angels (Divine Fire, Divine Hail, Divine Lightning, Divine Twister): 100 (plus piercing, these skill ignores all resist/null/absorb of the enemies, but they can be reflected by Makarakarn)



Multiple target elemental

Fire Breath, Ice Breath, Shock, Wind Breath (small damage 1-4 hits): 63

Ragnarok, Glacial Blast, Floral Gust (mid damage 1-4 hits): 103

Refrigerate (small damage 1-8 hits): 120

Plasma Shock (small damage 1-8 hits): 80

Breath (mid damage 1-5 hits): 123



Almighty

Megido: 53

Holy Wrath: 53 (x1.5 against Chaos)

Judgment: 53 (x1.5 against Neutral)

Sea of Chaos: 53 (x1.5 against Law)

Onteki Choubuku: 66 (x1.25, always hit the target as if it exploits weakness)

Medidola: 80

Babylon Goblet: 80 (plus confusion, which relies on Luck)

Megido Plasma: 90

Megidolaon: 106

Gaea Rage: 113

Damnation: 116 (plus poison, which relies on Luck)

Great Logo: 126

Shining Brand: 130 (plus branding, which relies on Luck)

Antikhton: 133 (plus all three ~kunda effects)



Analysis: So, the base damage of Agi used by someone with Mag 100 is (26 + 100 * 1.5) ~ 176. Hypothetically, at Mag 999, Agi +0 can cause 1525 damage (1549 if +8), while Trisagion +0 can cause 1598 damage (1622 if +8). As Mag grows higher, which skill to use does not matter as much.



As the demon's HP formula goes, HP of the HP-type demon (tank?) = 1.35 * (7 * Lv + 70). A lever 99 HP-type demon has about 1030 HP. If you use Antikhton, which takes 133 away, you'll still have 897HP to deduct. 897/1.5 = 598. So, hypothetically, if Mag reaches ~560, the MC and OHKO everything in random encounters.



With Concentrate... it's much lower. Concentrate increase the final damage by 2.5 times. So the base damage just needs to be 412. (412-133)/1.5 = 186 Mag needed. With about Mag 200 and Concentrate, MC can annihilate most stuff in one turn (use passing to let MC act twice.)



Just a hypothesis here... if you wonder when should you stop dumping into Mag, the range around 190 seems to be the answer. With 190 you can deal with most random encounters using Antikhton. Going higher for the sake of boss fights is probably sensible as well (?). My SMTIV info thread: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/672441-shin-megami-tensei-iv/66751506

May the power of niyari be with you Source: http://www34.atwiki.jp/megaten4/pages/284.htmlAs we have previously covered in this thread, only Mag affects the magical damage output. The general factor is 1.5 point more damage for each addition point of Mag. The final number is then added to the base power of the spell's. That forms the foundation damage, which will then be adjusted by many factors such as ~kaja, ~kunda, Pleroma, and +# etc.Here are the base powers of most of the damage-based magical skills (may not be complete and the translation may be slightly off because I play the JPN version).Agi, Bufu, Zio, Zan: 26Agirao, Bufula, Zioga, Zanma: 46Agidyne, Bufudyne, Ziodyne, Zandyne: 70Trisagion, Killing Wind: 100Maragi, Mahabufu, Mahazio, Mahazan: 20Maragion, Mahabufula, Mahazioga, Mahazanma: 40Cold World: 50 (plus instant death, which relies on Luck)Charming Bolt: 50 (plus confusion, which relies on Luck)Maragidyne, Mahabufudyne, Mahaziodyne, Mahazandyne: 60Thunder Reign: 80DLC elemental of the four arch-angels (Divine Fire, Divine Hail, Divine Lightning, Divine Twister): 100 (plus piercing, these skill ignores all resist/null/absorb of the enemies, but they can be reflected by Makarakarn)Fire Breath, Ice Breath, Shock, Wind Breath (small damage 1-4 hits): 63Ragnarok, Glacial Blast, Floral Gust (mid damage 1-4 hits): 103Refrigerate (small damage 1-8 hits): 120Plasma Shock (small damage 1-8 hits): 80Breath (mid damage 1-5 hits): 123Megido: 53Holy Wrath: 53 (x1.5 against Chaos)Judgment: 53 (x1.5 against Neutral)Sea of Chaos: 53 (x1.5 against Law)Onteki Choubuku: 66 (x1.25, always hit the target as if it exploits weakness)Medidola: 80Babylon Goblet: 80 (plus confusion, which relies on Luck)Megido Plasma: 90Megidolaon: 106Gaea Rage: 113Damnation: 116 (plus poison, which relies on Luck)Great Logo: 126Shining Brand: 130 (plus branding, which relies on Luck)Antikhton: 133 (plus all three ~kunda effects)Analysis: So, the base damage of Agi used by someone with Mag 100 is (26 + 100 * 1.5) ~ 176. Hypothetically, at Mag 999, Agi +0 can cause 1525 damage (1549 if +8), while Trisagion +0 can cause 1598 damage (1622 if +8). As Mag grows higher, which skill to use does not matter as much.As the demon's HP formula goes, HP of the HP-type demon (tank?) = 1.35 * (7 * Lv + 70). A lever 99 HP-type demon has about 1030 HP. If you use Antikhton, which takes 133 away, you'll still have 897HP to deduct. 897/1.5 = 598. So, hypothetically, if Mag reaches ~560, the MC and OHKO everything in random encounters.With Concentrate... it's much lower. Concentrate increase the final damage by 2.5 times. So the base damage just needs to be 412. (412-133)/1.5 =Mag needed. With about Mag 200 and Concentrate, MC can annihilate most stuff in one turn (use passing to let MC act twice.) (edited 7 years ago )

User Info: Zelloss Zelloss 7 years ago #9 The best rating is your own. I don't base my choice on other peoples views - Samus1 Just to clarify and make sure I'm reading this right: +x adds +3 damage each to the base power of spells? Is that correct? Or does it change based on what spell it is?