Watchog said: I think Slowbro's effect on the metagame has been pretty negative for a long time because it checks too much shit, to be frank. Itemless, it checks so many physical attackers like Passimian, Medicham, Rhydon, Hitmonlee, Aerodactyl, Hariyama, Klinklang, Piloswine, Archeops (the list goes on) just with Regenerator, Slack Off, and bulk alone. Then you add in items like Assault Vest and Colbur Berry and you suddenly check all the mons above + Spex Diancie and many of the Fire- types in NU as well as stuff like Z-Celebrate Vaporeon (which is literally only bad because Slowbro exists). Click to expand...

I've got nothing better to do, so I'll type my thoughts on the pink boy.I do not think Slowbro is ban-worthy. There's a multitude of reasons as to why, but I first want to address some arguments I've heard already during the test and from before it.1) "Slowbro is (over)centralizing." I put the 'over' in parentheses because they have different connotations imo. I 100% agree that Slowbro is a centralizing force; it does many things better than anything else in the tier: defensive pivot, bulky Water-type, bulky setup sweeper. These are all things I feel anyone can argue (and win said argument) Slowbro to be the best at. But overcentralizing? Nah. Idrk if there's some set-in-stone definition for the word, but the way I look at overcentralization is if either a) not using the Pokemon puts you at a distinct disadvantage (essentially meaning there is no reason to not use the Pokemon under any circumstances) or b) the Pokemon makes others of the same type significantly worse/harder to justify using. I feel that part (a) is easy to argue; there have been plenty of teams that have not utilized Slowbro and been successful. This extends into part (b) in that Slowbro's role as a defensive pivot is easily covered by other Pokemon: Vaporeon, Vileplume, Palossand, and more can cover this role and check similar Pokemon Slowbro does. The big distinctions here between Slowbro and other Pokemon end up being two factors: Regenerator and blankets (you know, the thing you sleep under). Regenerator is the huge thing that separates Slowbro from other Pokemon trying to do its job because it lets Slowbro not take a turn using Slack Off to recover health. This also assists it in staving off chip damage from U-turn and entry hazards. So how do other Pokemon justify their usage over Slowbro? Other fun perks. Vaporeon provides Wish and cleric support; Vileplume is broken and can be EVed to manage both kinds of attackers; Palossand sets Stealth Rock and beats Xatu. At the end of the day, it is pretty rough to compare other Pokemon to Slowbro because of how versatile it is; I only looked at it serving as a defensive pivot, while we all know Slowbro can be a bulky wincon or a wallbreaker of sorts with Assault Vest. The point here was essentially to show that Slowbro isn't suffocating the viability of other Pokemon to the depths of E-ranks; if you need more Water-type examples, see: Seismitoad, Slowking, and Blastoise.2) "Slowbro is too versatile." This should never be an argument you use for banning something imo; versatility is great and all, but a Pokemon not being versatile doesn't make it bad, and vice versa. This isn't me trying to downplay Slowbro's versatility at all; rather, I want to establish how it's a shaky ground to base an argument of brokenness or unhealthiness on. We can easily view certain Pokemon in our tier that are relatively one-dimensional, yet still retain great viability: Passimian, Sceptile, Sneasel, Xatu, Vanilluxe, et cetera. The list goes on. What this usually boils down to is how effective the Pokemon is at its one job: Passimian is arguably the best revenge killer in the tier; Sceptile and Vanilluxe are two of the best wallbreakers in the tier; Xatu is dumb; and Sneasel is the best Pursuit trapper we have while also being serviceable as a wallbreaker. So what does Slowbro's immense versatility mean then if it doesn't make it broken? Well, like the OP states, it means Slowbro can super customizable and is able to adapt to really any meta it needs to. Slowbro is constantly able to tailor its movesets and items to whatever the meta (or team) needs from it. Its versatility also makes it at times difficult to predict (Assault Vest Slowbro is usually pretty easy to read from team preview, but then deciphering through all of its potential defensive sets is obnoxious). You could be playing your Vaporeon as though the opposing Slowbro is just some standard defensive variant, but then you get hit by Block and bop; there goes Vaporeon. At the end of the day, the important thing to address imo is whether or not any of Slowbro's sets are overwhelming on their own (or whether the mass versatility makes it too difficult to play against Slowbro due to its unpredictability, which I do not feel is the case at all). I can't really say Slowbro is all that hard to manage on paper, although in battle it can prove burdensome in some regards. Although on a downward trend, its Assault Vest set is a bitch to switch into given Slowbro's coverage options being super diverse, while its bulky Calm Mind sets can get out of hand if given the right opportunity. I personally feel playing around Slowbro essentially boils down to two things: firstly, can you scout its set from team preview or the early-game, and secondly, can you scout its moves (and predict properly against them)? Like I said Calm Mind sets can get tricky if you can't overpower it before it blasts your Pokemon back (Rest variants can be especially obnoxious), although it usually takes some pretty ideal scenarios for these variants to outright beat a team on their own.3) "Slowbro hinders the viability of too many other Pokemon." This was an argument from the Sneasel suspect test (maybe even both of them, I can't recall lol), and I want to say it was decided to not be a good argument back then? Not going to check because #lazy, but the idea here that a top-tier Pokemon can limit the potential of other Pokemon and is thus unfair is a tad ridiculous. There are so many other reasons Pokemon like Klinklang, Hitmonlee, and Archeops sorta just suck; it's a combination of being outclassed and a multitude of Pokemon checking them. This whole argument of "Slowbro checking too many Pokemon" is not selling me either. It's a bulky Water-type; I would hope it can beat Ground-types like Rhydon and Steelix! The problem with this argument is generally that you can tailor it to really any good Pokemon: "Passimian should be banned because it checks every Dark-type Pokemon in the tier and makes other Fighting-types so much worse". I totally get this is oversimplifying things, but the general message behind that argument is a fair comparison imo; you're looking at a great Pokemon and questioning its placement in the tier because it makes a large list of other Pokemon worse. I'm not too sure how to expand further on this. I guess you could argue Slowbro does this to a different extreme?My problem with this list is that most of these Pokemon aren't just bad because Slowbro is in the tier and they're all Pokemon one would expect Slowbro to check just given its typing and defenses alone. Hitmonlee, Hariyama, Klinklang, and Piloswine have all been suffering meta-related trends for a good time now, with the former three's offensive capabilities being shafted by yes Slowbro, but also other fat Water-types and, especially in Hitmonlee's case, the prominence of Rotom, preventing easy use of its Fighting-type moves. Piloswine is in general just in a bad spot because its a bad Stealth Rock setter, not because Slowbro wails on it. The last sentence in the quote also seems a bit too emotion-laden imo; Z-Celebrate Vaporeon is certainly not just bad only because of Slowbro. It's bad because it has negligible early- and mid-game presence, it gets a grand one time of setting up, it loses to the three best fat Water-types (Slowbro you already mentioned; AV King can Dragon Tail it out while defensive Vaporeon just Toxic stalls it). Something I feel that needs to be kept in mind is that Slowbro can't check the large list of Pokemon you seem to be thinking about all at once; if it goes Assault Vest, then physical attackers can actually break through it much more successfully, while if it goes physically defensive, then it's super reliant on carrying Calm Mind AND getting a boost to check stuff like Choice Specs Diancie and Grassium Z Delphox.I guess I made my statements as to why I don't think Slowbro is ban-worthy in those three paragraphs lol.. essentially though I don't believe Slowbro's punishing usage of other Pokemon that perform similar jobs to it to the extent some seem to think, and I believe its versatility to be fairly telegraphed and to have counterplay (I hate BlockBro with a fiery passion though. It has countermeasures too don't get me wrong, but it's probably the most punishing of any of its sets). At the end of the day though, this is also a super weird suspect test in that we don't really have experience with a metagame that lacks Slowbro, making it super difficult to judge whether or not Slowbro is in fact unhealthy. This is a huge shot in the dark, and I don't know how it'll end up should pink lad leave us (altho UU is gonna steal it anyway so meh). Hopefully we can get some roomtours with Slowbro banned going so that we can get some glimpse into it, but until an actual meta develops without Slowbro, we won't really know the ramifications of being without it.tl;dr: slowbro aint restricting or overcentralizing and idrk if we can say its unhealthy because we dont know a meta without itEDIT: ok kay talked with me over Discord, and now Slowbro seems more centralizing than I once thought. idk what my opinion is now, but I do continue to tread the line between ban and no ban.