Is a company a craft beer brewer if it has breweries in multiple countries?

Is it a craft brewer if it runs a distributorship that brings dozens of other brewers’ beers to market? Is it craft if it spins off one of its brands as another “brewing company,” but keeps it within the same parent company? Is it craft if it starts a nine-figure investment firm with the sole intention of buying stakes in other breweries? Is it a craft brewer if it runs multiple taprooms and restaurants, giving it a presence in the brewing, distribution and sales tiers of the nation’s three-tier system of beer distribution?

If that brewer is Stone Brewing Co., the answer is yes.

In its 20th year of existence, Escondido, Calif.-based Stone has come to define craft beer brewing in the U.S. It quite literally does so, as co-founder Greg Koch sat on the board of the segment-defining Brewers Association craft beer industry group in 2010. That year, the association chose to redefine a “small” brewer as one producing fewer than 6 million barrels rather than one with production below 2 million. This year, two years after the BA altered the definition of a craft brewer again to amend the description of a “traditional” brewer to include pre-Prohibition brewers previously banned for using corn and other adjuncts, Stone co-founder and original brewmaster Steve Wagner still sits on the board.

Even beyond the BA, Stone continues to delineate the space between their concept of craft beer and the rest of the beer industry. Earlier this year, in an op-ed for the San Diego Union-Tribune, Koch laid out his argument against big, decidedly non-craft brewers. He accused them of “obfuscation,” he accused them of trying to marginalize craft brewers and he, by name, called out Constellation Brands STZ, -2.28% , MillerCoors and Anheuser-Busch InBev BUD, -0.75% for buying California brewers Ballast Point, Saint Archer and Golden Road.

He did so while noting that his brewery had gone from seven employees producing 800 barrels of beer in their first year, to more than 1,100 employees and 330,000 barrels in 2015. He did so while noting that Stone was preparing to open breweries in Richmond, Va., and Berlin later this year, to add to its brewery in Escondido, its Stone Distributing Co., its World Bistro and Gardens locations in Econdido and San Diego, a forthcoming taproom in Napa and its stores in San Diego, Oceanside and Pasadena, Calif.

Stone Brewing Co.

He did so knowing that, just a few months later, he and Wagner would be launching the $100 million True Craft investment fund. Billed by Koch as “an alternative model to the one that requires [brewery] founders to sell their company in its entirety,” True Craft’s stated goal is to offer an alternative to selling to MillerCoors, Constellation Brands or Anheuser-Busch InBev. However, he also sees it as an alternative to “selling a majority interest to private equity.” That stake is all that separates True Craft’s model from private-equity ventures like those between Oskar Blues and Fireman Capital (United Craft Brews) and Southern Tier, Victory and Ulysses Management (Artisanal Brewing Ventures, or ABV), but it could also provide a valuable service to Stone after Koch announced last year that he would step down as Stone’s chief executive once a suitable replacement could be found.

Koch also rails against big beer despite owing a great deal of his brewery’s success to brewmaster Mitch Steele, who worked in Anheuser-Busch’s Specialty Brewing Group making Michelob Amber Bock, Red Wolf and other craft-style beers before coming to Stone 10 years ago. (Steele is leaving at the end of the month to start his own brewery.) He once referred to Blue Moon as “a wolf in sheep’s clothing” for labeling itself a product of “Blue Moon Brewing Co.” rather than parent company MillerCoors, but just took a similar tack by placing Stone’s Arrogant Bastard family of strong ales under the Arrogant Bastard Brewing Co. header. That same label allows the man who once outwardly mocked “fizzy yellow beer” and said this ...

... to make an awfully yellow-looking pilsner called “Who You Callin’ Wussie?”

Are these contradictions? Not according to the rules Stone helped write. Do they weaken Stone’s argument against “big beer”? Not by Koch’s account.

We caught up with Greg Koch a few weeks ago and discussed Stone’s growth, the evolution of its company culture and why it’s now in the business of buying into breweries and brewing “fizzy yellow beer.”

Stone Brewing Co.

You’ve just opened a brewery in Richmond, you’re getting ready to open in Berlin in September, you’re opening a taproom and pilot brewery in Napa, you’ve just closed your Stone Farms organic farm in Escondido and you’ve spun off Arrogant Bastard. What does all of this say about the direction Stone is taking?

Koch: Stone Farms was purely a romantic notion. We were fortunate enough that we were able to hand it off to our farm manager, and then he will continue operating Stone Farms so it will live on, which was something that was very important to us. As far as our focus and ability to be effective farmers, it proved challenging. Of course, all farming is challenging for anybody in today’s world, but that’s not really related to any of these.

Simultaneous, but unrelated to that, I first visited this building in Napa five years ago and, unrelated to anything else, the developer purchased the building. The previous developer had purchased it and had an option on it and we tried to make something work, but were unable to. In the fullness of time, it came back around our way and we were as in love with the idea as we were five years ago and we decided to act on it.

Arrogant Brewing is really just to allow Arrogant Bastard Ale and its family to express more of its own individual personality, which is different than the personality of Stone Brewing.

That’s an interesting statement to make, considering it was birthed by Stone Brewing and comes very much out of Stone Brewing. It seemed to, judging by all of its marketing materials and everything else, come from a connection to the very personality of Stone Brewing. What makes it something other than Stone Brewing at this point?

Koch: Well ... Arrogant Bastard Ale has always had its own personality and style. Nothing else at Stone Brewing has had the attitude or approach of Arrogant Bastard.

Over the years, it’s been misperceived. I’ve heard: “Wow, we really love these creative names you come up with at Stone Brewing Co.” OK, so Stone IPA and Stone Smoked Porter and Stone Pale Ale, yeah, they’re pretty creative. I’ll give you that. Arrogant Bastard is such a big personality that it really wants its own tent and, so, we’re giving to him.

My first interaction with you was in a comments field on a story I’d written that included Blue Moon. It discussed that brand’s place under the MillerCoors umbrella, but functioning “independently.” There certainly seem to be parallels to draw with Arrogant Bastard Brewing and Blue Moon Brewing Co., so what makes this a different scenario?

Koch: There’s no question that Arrogant Bastard Ale is still very much under the Stone umbrella, and we’re not going to pretend that this is a separate company that is operated by separate people.

What it is, is a brewery or a brand that is operated by the brand itself. Arrogant Bastard’s in charge.

So who is Arrogant Bastard? Does it have a separate brewing team from Stone? Is Mitch still in charge of the overall brewing process or is there a different group of personnel assigned to it?

Koch: Arrogant Brewing is run by the beer Arrogant Bastard. It requires a little bit of the relaxing of the conceptualization centers of your brain. You have to just relax and let it flow. The more you want it to be penned in and defined, the less it’s going to be willing to have that done to it.

So if I just kind of stare at this beer long enough, there’s going to be a schooner somewhere in that picture?

Koch: Yeah. Basically, it’s like one of those pictures from the ’80s where, if you relax your eyes, you can kind of see an image in it. If you try too hard, you’re just unable to see it. It’s kind of like that.

That’s about as fair an explanation of this as I could have hoped for. But looking at how it fits in with Stone, does this mean it’s along for the ride to Richmond or Berlin?

Koch: Oh, yeah. I think we were trying a little bit too hard to put shape to something that’s a little bit ethereal, so it might be difficult to even answer those questions, because they’re theoretical.

So if Arrogant Bastard is out there in the ether just kind of drifting along the temporal plane ...

Koch: Exactly ...

... then, with this being an anniversary year for Stone where — and pardon me, because this isn’t a pun — it doesn’t seem anything is set in stone in terms of your rotating lineup in 2016. Will there be any sort of settling out once the series of 20th Anniversary beers are done?

Koch: Stone is a continually growing, developing entity.

We have set in stone, no pun intended, our foundational elements of our ethics and our ethos: Our philosophical pinnings upon which we’ve built this company. Those things don’t change. Our rugged individualism, our quality standards, our standards about how we engage in the marketplace, our ethics ... all of those are unchanging.

But now, that sets up a pretty big frame. We can paint the picture of 2016 upon it, and what does that look like? It doesn’t need to look the same as, say, 1997 looked. In fact, it doesn’t want to. It wants to have some evolution and, from time to time, some revolution. That’s part of our nature, and that’s what we love ourselves.

You know, I’ve always thought a lot of musical analogies, and I’ve always wanted Stone to be a seminal band. Your very best bands that have literally lived on for decades are the ones that have been able to reinvent themselves while simultaneously being true to themselves: By having all of those connected threads that you recognize them for what they are and their artistry. That they delight you rather than disappoint you.

That’s what we want stone to be. As we move through this, there are going to be some people who are thrilled with our decisions, and there are going to be some people who are going to want us to not change. They’re going to want us to come out with our second album again ... and then again ... and then again.

And we don’t want to come out with our second album again. We want to come out with new albums and make new music, and that’s where things like the Stone Citrusy Wit live, the Stone Xocoveza ... that’s where Wussie, that’s coming out under Arrogant Brewing, that’s where that lives. That’s the reinvention and creativity that we fully embrace.

It’s interesting to throw Wussie in there as an example of that creativity, because it seems like something antithetical to what Stone would have done in the past — delving into that particular style. What is Stone’s approach to a light lager and how is it different from beers that have existed in the market before?

Koch: Well, I would have words with anyone who would call it a light lager, just because light lager — that fizzy yellow beer thing — has been partially a state of mind.

To me, fizzy yellow beer has always been something that has intended to be dumbed down in an attempt to placate the masses. It is intended to be, on its very definition, unchallenging and uninteresting in order to make a commodity-level volume play.

Wussie is antithetical to all of that. Wussie is a pull-no-punches, intense, hoppy, true-to-form beer. That’s why the full name of the beer, of course, is “Who You Calling Wussie?” And, yeah, we’re having some fun with it. Again, Arrogant Bastard has a particularly unique voice that I think is well-suited to speak this language. And, so far — with this beer still a month away from release — people are digging it.

It seems to be picking a good window in time for this. Looking at some of your California neighbors — Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River and his STS pilsner, Matt Brynildson at Firestone Walker and Pivo Pils — it looks like Wussie is something that would fit very well in the zeitgeist and its reinvention of what the average U.S. beer drinker knows as lager and pilsner. Where do you see Wussie in that equation?

Koch: Well, I would be hesitant to compare it directly to any of those, because it’s a standalone unique to itself.

It definitely recognizes that the pilsner style is noble and worth being lauded, but it has been absolutely destroyed by industrialization, commercialization and homogenization. And these elements really played havoc on the pilsner style.

Hey, and you’ve got to figure, and Arrogant Bastard figured, that big, international conglomerate beer is trying to steal craft beer from us. Maybe we go, while they’re not looking, and we take back the flag of pilsner from their unguarded hill. We grab it and make it our own, and that’s exactly what we’re doing.

After sitting back during this conversation and staring at the picture a bit and, despite its creative approach to the beer industry and the beer styles it’s allowed under the tent, Stone and its label seem like they’d constrain something like Wussie. It seems a tough fit for a pilsner or another style that doesn’t really mesh with the remainder of the Stone lineup. At what point did Stone come to the conclusion that everything didn’t fit neatly under one label and that other styles and brands would have to exist on their own and find their own way?

Koch: With Arrogant Bastard, that direction really started 19 years ago when it was released.

We always kept Arrogant Bastard, in many ways, separate from everything else at Stone Brewing: Treating it like a standalone, but not as much as we are beginning to do today. But we always had an internal rule, for example, that Arrogant Bastard Ale was not supposed to be included in a Stone IPA pint night at a restaurant because it’s a different beer and a different approach to communication.

That line got muddied over the years. We just relaxed into a comfy couch of positioning, and Arrogant Bastard rose up and said: “You know what? I’m not interested in sitting on a comfy couch anymore. I have to branch out and express myself.”

Richmond seems to give Stone and Arrogant Bastard an opportunity to start from a clean slate and set up a bit differently than in Escondido. How has that worked out so far and have plans for Richmond fallen in line with things you’ve done before, or have you taken different approaches to beer, food, distribution, etc.?

Koch: When you build a new facility like the one we did in Richmond, you have the opportunity to get the benefit of your years of experience, your new perspective and your additional inspiration that you’ve gathered along the way and bring them to bear with the new project.

And we’ve done all of that. At its core, Stone Brewing in Richmond is Stone Brewing. You walk in and you feel that certain kind of ... thing. We’ve learned a lot in the last 10 or 11 years since we built our brewery in Escondido, and we’re using that knowledge.

When it comes to distribution, Virginia’s a completely different thing. We started self-distributing here in San Diego 20 years ago because we had no choice. In Richmond, we have an outstanding wholesaler partner and a relationship that we love. These are guys that are passionate about our beer and highly skilled at their jobs and they’re a great partner for us. We don’t have the same need for self-distribution in Virginia, let alone I don’t think it’s legal.

Considering what you’ve been able to accomplish as a distributor in California by gaining the trust of California craft brewers and expanding your presence in Southern California significantly, what have you taken away from the process of growing Stone Distribution? What have you taken away from working in that tier and how has it informed your view of the integrity of the three-tier system?

Koch: Well, the three-tier system has full integrity. As with anything, if you abuse the laws and ethics of any of the three tiers, then you have a bad actor.

Generally speaking, most companies play appropriately in their tiers. When it comes to Stone Distributing, we have the same exact laws that we have to follow as any wholesaler and as a brewer, we have the same exact laws that we have to follow as any brewer.

It upheld the standards of the three-tier system that we’re known as being among the best actors in the business when it comes to rigorously following the laws. I believe that the three-tier system has never been the issue when there are problems in it. It’s bad actors. It’s those who are trying to bend the law to get away with illegal or unethical behavior.

Now that you’re going into business in Berlin — going into Germany and operating a brewery under your own flag — are you seeing clearer ground there than when you first started here, or are there obstacles there that need to be dealt with as well?

Koch: There are obstacles everywhere.

I’ve never once walked into a bar or restaurant and had them say: “Oh, we just happened to have some empty tap handles and were wondering if somebody would walk in with some beer to sell us.” Similarly, I’ve never walked into a store and had them say: “Oh, we had this empty shelf space just sitting here and we were hoping somebody would wander in and just sell us some beer.” From the very first day in 1996 to yesterday, the comment you hear more often is: “Sorry, my taps are full” or “Sorry, my shelves are full.” You always have to just go out and work and compete as best you can. At the Stone Brewing Co., we have to earn our spot based on merit.

I came back from Amsterdam in April and the folks at the More Beer bar family there seemed to have a very high opinion of your beer. It was spread throughout Amsterdam. Does it take sharp elbows to create that space or does it require being on the ground and networking, making friends, influencing decisions?

Koch: You don’t throw elbows, not when you do it right.

At Stone, we’ve never thrown elbows. That’s not our style. It’s that ethics thing and it’s earning a place on merit. If you throw elbows and throw weight around, that ends up with a very temporary result, and we aren’t interested in temporary results. We’re interested in long-term health and long-term positive interaction with the industry.

In doing that, does it require laying of groundwork: Doing collaborations, getting to know brewers in different markets, forming relationships?

Koch: You get to be a brewer on our scale because of the legwork, at least when it comes to Stone Brewing and the way we approach life.

There are multiple models, and there are some brewers who have gotten to where they are because of combativeness and ethically challenged business practices. Some of them sell out to foreign breweries ... though I’m not going to be specific.

How do you want to wake up every morning and look in the mirror? What’s important to you on a personal level when it comes to how you interact with people. We like to build friendships. Why? Because of some kind of business angle? No. Because we like to build friendships and because we think these people are awesome. We’ve been friends with Vinnie and Natalie [Cilurzo of Russian River] for 21 years. We’ve been friends with Pizza Port and Vince and Gina [Marsaglia, Pizza Port’s founders] for 21 years. I can go on and on down the path because they’re lovely people and I respect what they do.

I love seeing my friends be successful. I love seeing my friends do awesome work. I’m thinking about Amsterdam, and I’m thinking about my friends at the Jopen brewery. I first met them four or five years ago. The last time I saw them was in Berlin. They were participating in a sour beer festival.

Actually, the last time I saw them was in Amsterdam and when we kicked off our beer there [two months ago] and they came out to celebrate with us. When we open our brewery and restaurant in Berlin, I was just going over the taplist, and we’re going to have some of their beer on tap. I feel privileged to be able to do so.

Is it strategic? I suppose. Just as it’s strategic to walk over to a neighbor and ask for a cup of sugar and they say: “Sure, and while you’re here I’ll make you a sandwich.” Is that strategic or is that just being good neighbors? I guess the answer could be both. It’s just a smart thing to be good to each other and it’s just easier to be good to each other.

There seems to be a fine balance between being a good neighbor to your neighbors and defending your neighborhood. As friendly as you are with your fellow craft brewers, I’ve seen a lot of fire out of you toward bigger brewers when it comes to the subject of craft. How do you level out the two?

Koch: I guess the basis for that comes from my love and passion for craft brewing and my realization that craft brewers got us to this place of beauty that we’re in today: Of great quality choice, availability, a vibrant, healthy and diverse brewing culture that we’ve been able to build up in the United States.

For me personally, I’m not going to sell that out. I’m not interested in selling that out. I didn’t build up something just to turn around and flip it and put a bunch of cash in my pocket and buy a bunch of expensive homes and airplanes. It’s not in my DNA. Craft beer is very much in my DNA, which is why I was initially attracted to it. I believed in the culture, creativity and individualism. I will always fight for people to have access to greatness, and greatness takes many forms. Sure, there’s greatness in craft brewing, but there’s greatness in other aspects of food and drink. We are in a world that is primarily consumed by commodity approaches to food and drink, and people don’t always have access to real food and drink. I’m willing to fight to give people access to real food and drink.

There’s a weird paradigm that we’ve found ourselves in this country where the commodified version is the “real” version and the real version is the one for a select few, and that’s just practically criminal. Especially when we look out into the world and look at the challenges associated with global warming and problems associated with the Western diet. Sometimes things aren’t a big mystery, but sometimes these things are elusive to the average person. I had the clouds part for me a few years ago on food and drink and craft beer, but I’ll be darned if I’ll have the clouds gather again.

Is that part of what inspired True Craft? If so, how can a small brewer that’s having financial issues get a part of your $100 million fund?

Koch: True Craft is a concept and a platform that’s designed to allow craft beer to remain craft beer. To allow the ethos and the character and the soul and control of a brewery founder to remain, and this is very important to us.

True Craft is designed so that the brewery will remain independent and that’s the key right there. It starts with contacting us. True Craft is currently focused on more than 25,000 barrels, so it’s not the right kind of company to help a 2,500-barrel company go to 10,000 barrels or something. Fortunately, there are a lot of resources out there for companies who want to do that. If they have their finances in order, they can get bank financing and there are a lot of banks that want to help out brewers.

Your brewmaster, Mitch Steele, just announced he’s leaving Stone to start his own brewery. What has Mitch Steele meant to Stone during the past decade and what did it mean to have one of Anheuser-Busch’s finest brewers come over to your craft brewery at the time?

Koch: When Mitch joined Stone Brewing back in 2006, well … for starters, we were all thrilled (and almost a bit shocked) that someone with his level of knowledge, experience and passion for the industry wanted to be a part of Stone Brewing. My business partner, Steve Wagner, and I knew that by having Mitch join Team Stone and lead our brewing team, he would truly be able to take us toward the next step in our company and continue fostering our company’s growth. Plus, he joined our team shortly after we had transitioned from our small brewhouse off Mata Way (now the home of Port Brewing/Lost Abbey) to our current home in North San Diego County, so the timing was impeccable.

Mitch has had multiple contributions to Stone, among them leading the development of recipes for some of our fan-favorite beers — Stone Enjoy By IPA, Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous Black IPA and several Stone Anniversary Ales. It’s a bittersweet goodbye, and we’re excited to continue fighting the good fight for craft beer with Mitch and his new brewery project alongside us.

Jason Notte is a freelance writer based in Portland, Ore. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Huffington Post and Esquire. Notte received a bachelor’s degree in journalism from the S.I. Newhouse School of Public Communications at Syracuse University in 1998. Follow him on Twitter @Notteham.