michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Nearly 900 students have been offered admission to New York City’s most elite public high school. Just seven of those students are black. It’s Tuesday, April 2.

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archived recording (bill de blasio) Hi, I’m Bill de Blasio. I’m an outer-borough working dad and proud public school parent.

eliza shapiro

In 2013, Bill de Blasio —

archived recording (bill de blasio) I’m currently serving as New York City public advocate, and I’m running to be your mayor.

eliza shapiro

— runs for New York City mayor —

archived recording (bill de blasio) Right now, we’re living a tale of two cities — one where the rich keep growing richer, while middle-class New Yorkers struggle, and nearly half our city lives at or near the poverty line.

eliza shapiro

— on this promise that he’s going to vanquish inequality in every part of city life.

archived recording (bill de blasio) Without a dramatic change of direction, generations to come will see New York as little more than a playground for the rich.

eliza shapiro

And his number one priority —

archived recording (bill de blasio) Each and every child deserves a future that isn’t limited by their zip code.

eliza shapiro

— is to tackle decades of inequities that have been built into America’s largest public school system.

archived recording (bill de blasio) The answer is to fix the entire system.

eliza shapiro

He wants to end a system in which there’s this understanding that there’s good schools and bad schools.

archived recording (bill de blasio) We have to work from the assumption that we will save every child, that we will reach every child, that no system is actually working unless every child has opportunity. [APPLAUSE]

eliza shapiro

And really what he’s talking about here is the fact that middle-class white students have often gone to the quote, unquote, “good schools” — the most funding, the best resources, the highest-quality teachers — and low-income black and Hispanic students have gone to schools with the poorest performance and the least resources for decades.

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michael barbaro

Eliza Shapiro covers education in New York City.

archived recording (bill de blasio) [APPLAUSE] Now, to all the educators in the room, I hope you’re going to be proud of this next one.

eliza shapiro

So five years in to de Blasio’s term —

archived recording (bill de blasio) We set the all-time record for graduation rate in New York City. [CHEERING]

eliza shapiro

— he’s trying to get the rest of the city, and, really, the rest of the country to pay attention to inequality in this massive public school system.

archived recording (bill de blasio) That number was less than 50 percent not long ago in this town, before we had mayoral control of education, which created real accountability.

eliza shapiro

And then a few weeks ago —

archived recording Well, now, to those disturbing admissions numbers in New York City’s elite public high schools — a new report is intensifying the debate of racial disparity.

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archived recording Only a handful of black and Latino students are getting into some of New York City’s elite high schools compared with other ethnic groups.

eliza shapiro

— these numbers come out.

archived recording Only seven black students were offered admission to Stuyvesant High School’s freshman class of 895 students. And the numbers are similar for other elite schools that use entrance exams to determine who gets in.

eliza shapiro

At New York City’s most elite public high school, out of 900 seats, only seven were offered to black students.

michael barbaro

So that’s less than 1 percent admissions.

eliza shapiro

That’s right. And it’s actually getting worse.

archived recording The numbers at Stuyvesant are not a surprise. Last year, 10, and 13 the year before.

eliza shapiro

The percentage of black and Hispanic students at these schools has gone down year after year. And now, we’ve basically reached rock bottom.

archived recording 1 It’s abysmal. You know, I would dare say an atrocity was happening in terms of education. archived recording 2 It’s absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable.

eliza shapiro

So many people were asking, how could we have allowed this to happen?

archived recording And now to the latest scandal rocking the halls of academia.

eliza shapiro

Just as we’ve been talking about with the college admissions scandal —

archived recording 50 people have been charged in a nationwide admissions scam, many of them well-to-do parents trying to get their kids into some of the highest profile schools in the country.

eliza shapiro

— and —

archived recording Harvard systematically raises the bar for Asian-Americans and systematically lowers it for whites, African-Americans —

eliza shapiro

— the affirmative action case at Harvard —

archived recording Whether or not you support affirmative action, I think it’s an important time to be critical of Harvard and to look at how affirmative action policies have impacted or discriminated against Asian-American communities.

eliza shapiro

— and this number went into the center of that storm.

michael barbaro

And so what are these elite public schools you’re referring to in New York that have admitted so few black students?

eliza shapiro

So they were created at the beginning of the 1900s. And the idea was that these schools would offer students who could have never afforded a fancy private school the same rigorous academics and extracurriculars and resources that their wealthier, more privileged counterparts get. The idea was that you didn’t have to be anyone’s son. Your parents didn’t have to give a donation. This was a meritocracy. And the meritocracy was based on the idea that you passed one test and you got in.

michael barbaro

So a single test is all you need to get in.

eliza shapiro

A single test.

michael barbaro

And who’s getting into these schools at this point?

eliza shapiro

So in the ‘20s and ‘30s and ‘40s, the schools were mostly attended by immigrants from all over Europe, Jewish immigrants in particular. And these students are going on to win Nobel prizes in physics and chemistry, become famous authors and writers and academics. And the schools are really seen as the way out of poverty — really, this golden ticket. So over the years, these schools really become household names in New York City. You have Stuyvesant High School. You have Bronx High School of Science. You have Brooklyn Technical High School. And they seem to be working the way they were designed to work.

archived recording All we want is equal education. That’s all — equal education.

eliza shapiro

But in the 1960s, in New York City, as school segregation became the biggest boiling point in the city —

archived recording Our hope is that the Board of Education will decide to come up with a really comprehensive plan for citywide school desegregation.

eliza shapiro

— some black and Hispanic educators and parents were beginning to wonder why their kids weren’t getting into these mythologized schools.

archived recording Freedom! Now!

eliza shapiro

And they were wondering, can we change something about this admissions process to help our kids get into these schools and have their own path into the middle class? And that’s where things started to get really contentious.

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So there was this seed of a plan to say, can we think about a different way to offer kids admission beyond this one standardized test? And there was this immediate backlash from the alumni of the schools, from the leaders of the schools, to say, our schools are under threat, and we need to do something to protect them.

michael barbaro

What happens?

eliza shapiro

So these groups who want to keep the test rush up to Albany —

michael barbaro

Our capital.

eliza shapiro

Our capital. And they lobby politicians to make the test a law. And just a few months after this debate begins, in the spring of 1971 in Albany, a law is passed. The only way to get in is by taking the test. And that’s been our system ever since.

michael barbaro

And what becomes of these schools once this single-test admission system is codified in the law?

eliza shapiro

So their stature only grows. They continue to churn out generally extremely accomplished alumni.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm.

eliza shapiro

But now that this test is part of the state law, there’s this growing obsession with this exam. How do you ace this exam to get your way out of poverty? So as the years go on, we see this enormous rise in an industry to prepare for this test. And then in the 1970s, as we see this new wave of immigration from Asia, where there is a very strong culture that tests can determine your future, a lot of Asian immigrants say, we want these schools to propel our kids out of the poverty we found ourselves in after we came to America.

michael barbaro

And did they succeed?

eliza shapiro

They did. So the schools, in the decades since, have become, instead of mostly white and Jewish, mostly Asian-American. But the percentage of black and Hispanic students has only shrunk. And that’s where we are today.

michael barbaro

Help me understand those statistics. What exactly are they? And how do they reflect the city’s actual population?

eliza shapiro

So these elite schools are about 60 percent Asian-American. The city school system as a whole is about 16 percent Asian American.

michael barbaro

Wow.

eliza shapiro

These elite schools are about 10 percent black and Hispanic, but the system is 70 percent black and Hispanic.

michael barbaro

Eliza, how do we explain these numbers? Why aren’t black and Hispanic public school kids getting into these elite schools?

eliza shapiro

So this is really complicated. But it all starts with the fact that a lot of these black and Hispanic students don’t know these schools exist in the first place. And they definitely don’t know this test exists that they have to prepare for.

michael barbaro

And how can that be, that they don’t know? You, just a few minutes ago, said that the city is kind of obsessed with the tests.

eliza shapiro

So in some schools that are really underperforming, I’ve just heard from students that this is not a top priority.

student So in fifth grade, my teacher, she pulled me to the side, and she was, like, hey, have you heard about the school? It’s called Stuyvesant. You have to take a test called the SHSAT.

eliza shapiro

For some of them, it was this one teacher who tapped them on the shoulder and said, you’re doing really well in school. You should think about these elite public schools.

student She recommended that I buy the Barron’s book and start studying for it. And then that’s how I knew about it.

eliza shapiro

And I had students say to me, all of the kids at my mostly black or mostly Hispanic middle school were smart. But I’m the only one who got tapped on the shoulder.

student But the rest of my peers did not know about the specialized high schools or Stuyvesant or any of the schools or the SHSAT until eighth grade, one month before the test.

eliza shapiro

And that shows just how uneven just the knowledge of this system really is throughout the city.

student So I took the test. I think a handful of other students in my grade took the test. But since I had been the only one preparing for it, I was only one who got in. eliza shapiro Right. student So it’s just like, you can’t aim for something if you don’t know it exists.

michael barbaro

How have Asian students that you’ve spoken to explained their awareness of the test?

eliza shapiro

So I’ve spoken to many Asian-American graduates of these elite schools who said, from the earliest age they can remember, their parents and their teachers were encouraging them to study and prepare for this test.

student I think that most of the pressure I feel is just from myself. My parents are just there to support me.

eliza shapiro

And the week the admissions letters would come out, everybody in their community in Chinatown, in Flushing, in Asian-American neighborhoods all across New York City, this is all anybody was talking about. So there’s this awareness piece. And then we get to preparation for the test. This test is really hard. It really helps kids to prep for it. And some kids, particularly white and Asian-American students, will prep for months, if not years.

michael barbaro

How do you prep for years for a test like this?

eliza shapiro

There are summer academies all the way through middle school where students are taking practice tests every single day, five days a week, hours a day.

michael barbaro

And I assume that that costs a decent amount of money.

eliza shapiro

Right.

michael barbaro

So does all that suggest that this has a lot to do with income?

eliza shapiro

So it’s really much more complicated than that. New York City schools are overwhelmingly attended by poor students. But poverty doesn’t mean the same thing for every student and in every neighborhood. There are low-income Asian-American students whose parents have said they scraped together every last dollar for test prep. But there are also poor students in black and Latino neighborhoods for whom the test is not this be-all, end-all. And so within this basically impoverished school district, we have some really different realities on the ground.

michael barbaro

It sounds like you’re saying in certain, for example, Asian communities in New York City, that this test is just known. And people are talking about it, and they are preparing for it. You almost can’t avoid the subject of the test. Whereas in other communities — black, Latino communities — that may not be the case, for whatever reason.

eliza shapiro

Absolutely. And remember, these schools were created to find the diamonds in the rough, the kids who needed a push into a better life. And one big concern here is that black and Hispanic students who are brilliant and would do wonderfully at these schools don’t even know that they’re an option for them.

michael barbaro

That actually feels like a pretty solvable problem. Why not just tell everybody in New York City public middle schools, make it mandatory — they have to know about the test, and they have to take the test? How much has that been seen as part of a solution to the problem?

eliza shapiro

So the city has been trying for decades — first, under Mayor Michael Bloomberg, now under Bill de Blasio — to raise awareness and to provide, actually, free test prep for kids who would have problems affording it. But I’ve found that even when all of those things technically go right, they’ll show up to test prep day one, take a practice test, and realize that the test is quizzing them on concepts they’ve never learned.

michael barbaro

Why would that be the case for some students more than others, that they’re arriving at a test, and it’s all new concepts?

eliza shapiro

So this gets back to this huge question of quality. There’s this huge discrepancy in quality among these hundreds of middle schools in New York City. So in some schools, you might be taking an advanced geometry course. And in some schools, you might be really still on the basics. So when you show up and take this practice test, it can be a really harsh dose of reality for some of these kids.

student I do not understand why we give eight graders ninth and 10th grade math, 11th grade math, et cetera.

eliza shapiro

And I spoke to some students who had an experience like that.

student But then also, the amount of pressure of that exam is insane. It’s one test. And it’s also so quickly paced. You have to go in knowing what to do. You can’t —

michael barbaro

So in a sense, this test to get into these elite high schools, they may actually be assessing how good your middle school was.

eliza shapiro

Exactly.

student So it’s mind-boggling to me that we think that that test is like a good way of measuring anybody’s —

eliza shapiro

So for all of these reasons —

archived recording (bill de blasio) We have to make a major change. We have to make sure the very best high schools are open to every New Yorker.

eliza shapiro

— the mayor, Bill de Blasio, the guy who ran on this platform of tackling inequality, is basically saying, time’s up.

archived recording (bill de blasio) Time for a change? archived recording Yes. archived recording (bill de blasio) Time for a change? archived recording Yes. archived recording (bill de blasio) Time for a change? archived recording Yes.

eliza shapiro

It’s time for a much more radical solution.

archived recording (bill de blasio) The test has to go.

eliza shapiro

Scrap it altogether, and replace it with a system that would automatically give seats to the top students at every city middle school. And the impact of that change would be that the schools’ racial and ethnic makeup would be transformed overnight.

michael barbaro

How much?

eliza shapiro

The schools that are now about 10 percent black and Hispanic would become about 45 percent black and Hispanic. That’s because most middle schools in New York City are mostly black and Hispanic. So if you take the best students in every single middle school, that’s what these elite schools are going to look like.

archived recording (bill de blasio) These schools will get better when they reflect all of New York City —

eliza shapiro

The mayor is saying —

archived recording (bill de blasio) — because so much talent is being locked out right now. So much talent is being missed because of a broken system.

eliza shapiro

— not only is it clear that this test is missing some of the brightest black and Hispanic kids in the system, but that diversity is in and of itself a value and something that will make these beloved schools even better and stronger.

archived recording (bill de blasio) — Because beauty and intelligence and strength comes in all shapes and sizes, all colors, all genders.

michael barbaro

You told us earlier that when this test was challenged several decades ago, there was an incredible amount of pushback. So what is the reaction this time to de Blasio’s plan to get rid of it?

eliza shapiro

So I have never seen such a vitriolic reaction to a proposal out of City Hall.

archived recording 1 [CHANTING] A group of protesters gather in front of New York’s City Hall. archived recording 2 They chanted. archived recording 3 Keep the test! archived recording 4 And they marched, hundreds of them, across the Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall.

eliza shapiro

There are parents and alumni of these schools who are saying this proposal would all but destroy these schools.

speaker 1 There’s absolutely no doubt that once this door is open, who your father is is going to make a difference as to which school you get into. speaker 2 Everyone has an opportunity to sign up to take the test. If you step forward and you sign up, then you’re up for the challenge. If you didn’t, then you didn’t want to be challenged.

eliza shapiro

They would water down their academics. And they would let in kids who simply can’t cut it at the expense of kids who are acing this test that they revere.

speaker It is not a crime. We should not be punished for sending our kids for better education.

eliza shapiro

And then you have Asian-American families who feel that the mayor is discriminating against them.

speaker This solution is going to be borne solely on the backs of essentially poor Asian families. The Asian Exclusion Act of 2018 — I don’t know. It sounds sort of like it, because what people are basically saying is, hey, this school is too Asian.

eliza shapiro

They would lose half of their seats in this system under the mayor’s plan.

speaker De Blasio is a little biased. It showed implicit bias when he said, all Asians are economically sound. Well, we can afford tutoring. That sounds like a racist statement to me.

eliza shapiro

And they know the history of these schools. They know these schools were built to propel immigrant and poor kids out of poverty.

speaker Their parents decided to put their money towards that best. It’s not rich people that are taking these courses. These are poor, working-class immigrants that are directing their resources towards enrichment.

eliza shapiro

And they’re saying, what about us? We are immigrants. We need these schools.

archived recording The plan to eliminate the specialized high school admissions test will not move forward as of this year. But it could be put to a vote in the future.

eliza shapiro

And losing our seats would be a profound loss, and something that really, really, really feels painful for these parents.

michael barbaro

I mean, given those numbers, this argument from Asian-American families would seem to be quite compelling, right? Why should some kids who are clearly bright, who have aced these tests, lose their seats in the name of diversifying the entire schools?

eliza shapiro

Absolutely. But the flip side of this is I think we need to recognize that the best public high school in the city doesn’t seem to need to be diverse in order for us to consider it —

michael barbaro

The best.

eliza shapiro

— the best. And I think, for 50 years in this city, we’ve said segregation is simply a fact of life. And there’s not much we can do about that. And I think right now in New York City, we are in this really intense moment of reckoning with whether that’s really true, and whether that’s going to change. And it’s these elite schools that are in the middle of that shift.

michael barbaro

All this is making me wonder what these elite public schools are actually like for the students who attend them. What is it that makes them so special?

eliza shapiro

So what I hear over and over again from alumni and from students is that it’s all about the other kids. There’s this magical quality in these schools of — you’re around all the kids who want to study as hard as you do, who love math and English and environmental science as much as you do. And it’s this really safe place for smart kids. It’s cool to be smart there. And that can feel really, really special.

michael barbaro

Right. And I guess the question is, if you change the admissions process in the name of that diversity, does that magic you just described of being in these schools surrounded by only the best who have aced this test, does that go away somehow?

eliza shapiro

I think that’s the fear. But I think the argument against that is, could these schools change, but actually become something better? Could these schools become more vibrant, more special if they were more diverse, and if they looked more like the city in which all these kids live?

eliza shapiro O.K. I’m just going to put this here and then cover — I think —

michael barbaro

I’m curious about this very small number of black and Hispanic students at these schools. How do they feel about being deemed the best and the brightest, but also about being such a tiny minority there that’s now at the center of this big debate?

eliza shapiro I wanted to start the conversation by just asking how you reacted to the news this week?

eliza shapiro

So the day after this number came out, I went down to Stuyvesant. And I spent a late afternoon in the park next to the school with a group of nine black and Hispanic students. And we spent a long time talking about what it’s like for them.

student So to be honest, when I saw the number, I was angry. And I think my first reaction was anger, because I’ve seen a lot of people putting in effort and putting in time to try and remedy the discrepancies in our school system.

eliza shapiro

I heard a lot of pain and anguish about that number.

student I’ve been told that the only reason I got into Stuyvesant was because I’m black, even though the test doesn’t even factor that in. The test doesn’t even factor that in. People get so aggressive. They personalize these issues, because these are your children. So people get angry. They find a way to demonize you, to vilify you in a way that makes you alien. And of course, not only is that discouraging and alienating, but it makes you feel like maybe you don’t deserve your spot, even though I know that I worked just as hard as every other sophomore in my class to get into this high school.

eliza shapiro

And I was talking to one of these students who remembered that his mom said to him, you’re going to be one of the only black students at this school. You’re going to have to put on your armor every day.

student Obviously, it’s not us versus them. I think it’s important to say, it’s not us versus them. It’s very true that in this circumstance, black and Latinx communities and Asian communities have been pitted against each other. And I think what it’s so important for people to realize is that when we have a more representative school system, when we have a school system in which everyone has an equal opportunity, that benefits all of us. That benefits us collectively as a society.

eliza shapiro

And I also just saw, in this time we spent together, this really profound sense of camaraderie — that they’d gotten themselves through Stuyvesant together as a group.

michael barbaro

Eliza, thank you very much.

eliza shapiro

Thank you.

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student Sorry, one more quick thing. I have so much trouble believing that, of all of the top students in New York City who are able to change the world and who are able to perform the best in this really rigorous environment, that only seven of them are black. Right? That, to me, it’s just wrong.

michael barbaro