tokinho Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 772 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 12:35:28 #1

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The problem with Ravagers is not necessarily ravagers but that it forces out a response which leaves them vulnerable to other styles. Zerg has multiple openers and the gas timings are identical for several builds. For example a nydus allin, roach burrow, or roach heavy upgrades has similar gas timings as that of a ling ravager push. That being said often the pushes come and the opponent has no idea its going to be that until eggs pop and the units are pushing across the map. So when you see that gases you always prepare for ravagers and are often beaten in other ways. At Dreamhack, the killer often was not the ravagers, but the other builds which countered the response Terran players were doing for the ravagers. Blizzard is suggesting that ravagers and lurkers take longer to morph, but this still doesn't allow any premptive scouting. So the suggestion is to allow for scouting of ravagers by allowing players to morph a ravager den.



Edit:This idea was originally seen in comments on TL by starslayer and I didn't find it for the original post to properly give credit.

Blizzard why do you want it make so hard to scout ravagers coming?-----------------------------------------------------------------------The problem with Ravagers is not necessarily ravagers but that it forces out a response which leaves them vulnerable to other styles. Zerg has multiple openers and the gas timings are identical for several builds. For example a nydus allin, roach burrow, or roach heavy upgrades has similar gas timings as that of a ling ravager push. That being said often the pushes come and the opponent has no idea its going to be that until eggs pop and the units are pushing across the map. So when you see that gases you always prepare for ravagers and are often beaten in other ways. At Dreamhack, the killer often was not the ravagers, but the other builds which countered the response Terran players were doing for the ravagers. Blizzard is suggesting that ravagers and lurkers take longer to morph, but this still doesn't allow any premptive scouting. Sosuggestion is to allow for scouting of ravagers by allowing players to morph a ravager den.Edit:This idea was originally seen in comments on TL by starslayer and I didn't find it for the original post to properly give credit. Beyond One's Grasp

crazedrat Profile Joined July 2015 272 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-11 23:00:21 #2 PvZ Ravagers are not much of an issue, pylon overcharge makes sure of that. TvZ they're an issue if you want to open fast CC, mainly if you follow up with 2 or more barracks. Otherwise not a big problem there either.

brickrd Profile Blog Joined March 2014 United States 4894 Posts #3 i'm a zerg player and i think this is fine and makes sense

Excellentee Profile Joined June 2015 8 Posts #4 I think this is a good idea.

ZeroCartin Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Costa Rica 2357 Posts #5 This totally makes sense actually. "My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana

friendlyscv Profile Joined November 2015 12 Posts #6 I'm all for it as long as they don't call it ravager den



zerg has too many dens already

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #7 Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.

starslayer Profile Joined August 2011 United States 659 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 18:25:35 #8 Ive been suggesting this in threads for a while hope they do it.



Edit I have been suggesting this idea not because of scout, but because making zerg need to make a "ravager den" will (in theory) delay ravagers enough for the other races to get enough units to deal with the silly pushes zerg can do atm.



scout isnt the problem to me its how fast they hit. i came here to kickass and chew bubblegum and i'm all out of bubble gum

blade55555 Profile Blog Joined March 2009 United States 17375 Posts #9 On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:

Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.



DEAL! Let's do this DEAL! Let's do this When I think of something else, something will go here

Heyjoray Profile Joined September 2015 240 Posts #10 Oh, roaches....OH MY GOD RAVAGER WHERE DO THEY COME FROM!? Are you serious?

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10268 Posts #11 Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix, or with some certain situations with Terran and there production. AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

LoveTool Profile Joined April 2012 Sweden 143 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 00:57:11 #12 No. My arguments are simple.



a) Ravagers need a ton of gas, 100 each. That is four times (4) more gas than a roach. Learn how to scout for gas count (pro tip: many early gasses and late lair tech = alert). If you don't know how to do that, then that is your problem not Blizzards.



b) Just fucking play safer.



ps. If you don't agree, then pls submit a picture of the sentry den, the marauder den, oracle den and the hellbat den - so that zergs can scout for these units also. Thx

pure.Wasted Profile Blog Joined December 2008 Canada 4701 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 00:59:08 #13 On December 12 2015 09:55 LoveTool wrote:

No. My arguments are simple.



a) Ravagers need a ton of gas, 100 each. That is four times (4) more gas than a roach. Learn how to scout for gas count (pro tip: many early gasses and late lair tech = alert). If you don't know how to do that, then that is your problem not Blizzards.



b) Just fucking play safer.



Those are two excellent arguments for why Twilight Council should unlock DTs. Those are two excellent arguments for why Twilight Council should unlock DTs. INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you

tokinho Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 772 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 03:20:59 #14 On December 12 2015 09:19 GGzerG wrote:

Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix, or with some certain situations with Terran and there production.



Again I want to emphasize the main point. Ravagers force out a response so the players are dying to other things. I'm not really thinking its the same because of the larvae mechanic and you are rewarded by finding the the starport, but not rewarded for scouting the lair/roach warren. I feel like you can do a similar response to oracles (5 queens 2 spores) and phoenix where you cannot do the same response for double upgrades or a spire, or a burrow roach timing off a third. For the amount of response required and the style it forces you to play, and you can lose in other ways.



As an example, one option would be hyperflight banshees as an opener against ravagers, but if you go banshees and they are faking towards mutas you scan the main and are denied scouting into the natural and mutas come out. The only commitment they did to it was 3 roaches and a roach warren, which is about one less muta so you get 9 at your base instead of 10 which can still be significant damage and shut down banshees allowing unrecoverable creep spread and map control.



My post history has mostly been about tournaments statistics and changes in the meta and I prefer mostly to stay away from game adjusting ideas. I know people always tend to shoot down statistics even before they become standard as has happened to nearly every one of my posts so I kind of expected this, but it is true. In the small sample size i have, Terran in general is losing a lot to zerg before getting up to 22 up grades and a lot of its comes from preparing for one build and being crushed by another even after scanning the opponent. Now the statistics are saying Terran is doing fairly well in the mid-late game and late game. Being less constrained from good scouting while playing against zerg deserves at least a try. Again I want to emphasize the main point. Ravagers force out a response so the players are dying to other things. I'm not really thinking its the same because of the larvae mechanic and you are rewarded by finding the the starport, but not rewarded for scouting the lair/roach warren. I feel like you can do a similar response to oracles (5 queens 2 spores) and phoenix where you cannot do the same response for double upgrades or a spire, or a burrow roach timing off a third. For the amount of response required and the style it forces you to play, and you can lose in other ways.As an example, one option would be hyperflight banshees as an opener against ravagers, but if you go banshees and they are faking towards mutas you scan the main and are denied scouting into the natural and mutas come out. The only commitment they did to it was 3 roaches and a roach warren, which is about one less muta so you get 9 at your base instead of 10 which can still be significant damage and shut down banshees allowing unrecoverable creep spread and map control.My post history has mostly been about tournaments statistics and changes in the meta and I prefer mostly to stay away from game adjusting ideas. I know people always tend to shoot down statistics even before they become standard as has happened to nearly every one of my posts so I kind of expected this, but it is true. In the small sample size i have, Terran in general is losing a lot to zerg before getting up to 22 up grades and a lot of its comes from preparing for one build and being crushed by another even after scanning the opponent. Now the statistics are saying Terran is doing fairly well in the mid-late game and late game. Being less constrained from good scouting while playing against zerg deserves at least a try. Beyond One's Grasp

royalroadweed Profile Joined April 2013 United States 8118 Posts #15 Not sure if there's much point behind this. If you scout roaches or a roach warren its almost a guarantee that ravagers are coming. "Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19835 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 04:58:10 #16 On December 12 2015 08:53 blade55555 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:

Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.



DEAL! Let's do this DEAL! Let's do this



It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building)



It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building) Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix



If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition



If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition the marauder den and the hellbat den



Tech lab rax and reactor factory. You often have advanced warning and short term knowledge of what the terran can actually build at the times where limited production facilities matter most Tech lab rax and reactor factory. You often have advanced warning and short term knowledge of what the terran can actually build at the times where limited production facilities matter most "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10268 Posts #17 It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_- AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

Lexender Profile Joined September 2013 Mexico 2577 Posts Last Edited: 2015-12-12 05:48:03 #18 On December 12 2015 09:55 LoveTool wrote:



ps. If you don't agree, then pls submit a picture of the sentry den, the marauder den, oracle den and the hellbat den - so that zergs can scout for these units also. Thx



Also known as tech lab and armory



Also known as tech lab and armory On December 12 2015 14:02 GGzerG wrote:

It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-



Thats an awful example tho, DTs come from their own building, it would be more like DTs coming from Twilight Thats an awful example tho, DTs come from their own building, it would be more like DTs coming from Twilight

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19835 Posts #19 it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-



Like a protoss with a twilight not building DT's - much more likely to happen but not guaranteed at all. Like a protoss with a twilight not building DT's - much more likely to happen but not guaranteed at all. "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

iamCHOMP Profile Joined December 2015 Canada 15 Posts #20 On a practical design point of view I think that totally makes sense and is a great thought.

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