yogi said: ...while i don't think it is straight "broken" like things such as archeops and magmortar were, i do think it's very unhealthy, especially from a teambuilding aspect. while it isn't actually the most splashable mon, the teams it work on really, really work and just put too much pressure on building. there's not a single check, bar absolute shit mons like spd sliggoo, that can check all its sets so same with pyroar you've got to play some of the game scouting it, which is deadly af when this mon had qd+sleep. this mon going will really balance out pu and i hope people vote ban. Click to expand...

Something I said in jest a few months ago:Lilligant is likely a more complex case to tease apart than other suspects, and while I'm leaning pro ban at the moment, this is not a threat that can be labeled as broken, nor was it able to be in the past, as those older metas were rife with threats like AV Magmortar, bulky Oricorio-G, Ferroseed, Pyroar, etc., that could fit naturally together on the same team. Lilligant preparation was essentially already done without thinking about it too much, and these were reliable in keeping Lilligant from sweeping full teams single-handedly by sufficiently covering each of its possible movesets. Even as we've lost a fair number of Lilligant's checks leading up to its ascension to S rank, there were still other, more pressing cases to deal with prior to Lilligant, which can help explain the somewhat awkward timing of this suspect. Lilligant was arguably at its peak in effectiveness from in between Pyroar's ban and Guzzlord's return, but it really took the back burner as it was overshadowed by Pokemon many players considered to be more immediately threatening, like Alolan Exeggutor.Even now, voting ban this suspect might look questionable to some given how much counterplay Lilligant realistically has: Alolan Sandslash, Oricorio-E, Guzzlord, and Dodrio are the usual checks that you'll see, and there are many others like Skuntank, Roselia, Drampa, Scarf Primeape, specially defensive Articuno, etc., such that nearly every team archetype has a teamslot available to fit some sort of answer for Lilligant. It's a potent threat that's been around the entire meta, so it's a given that there's been a high degree of meta adaptation in addressing Lilligant from a teambuilding perspective. And while it might look palatable from a cursory point of view as a result of this long-term adaptation, I argue that it's overcentralizing to the point teambuilding has become stale.Lilligant isn't an outright broken threat that lacks counterplay by any means; instead, the same Pokemon that are used to answer it are extraordinarily common. I'll link some replays below showing you just how often these are used in combination to answer each of Lilligant's potential movesets, while also providing the role compression necessary to cover the rest of the meta (ex. Oricorio-E also covering for Gurdurr; Alolan Sandslash also checking Aurorus, Mesprit, and Jynx; Dodrio RKOing other sweepers and cleaners like Ludicolo and offensive Alolan Sandslash; etc.):I pretty much just searched for council members' replays from within the last 4 months, as well as replays from our most recent ladder tournament and found that the majority of these battles had these sorts of team configurations like Metang+Roselia+Guzzlord or Alolan Sandslash+Oricorio-E+Guzzlord ready to prevent being swept by each of Lilligant's different sets. There are many more replays like these, but this should be enough to serve as evidence that Lilligant is centralizing to an unhealthy extent.Its "coinflippy" nature is partly behind players feeling obligated to build with multiple Lilligant checks; sometimes Sleep will last a turn longer than expected, leading it to muscle past one of its would-be counters in some instances. Its versatility also compounds this, leaving you liable to be swept by the set you weren't thinking about. Z-Hyper Beam after SR OHKOes Oricorio-E and Skuntank (and Sleep Powder prevents Dancer from activating); HP Fire KOes Alolan Sandslash; Z-Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance puts Lilligant +2 Speed, effectively allowing it to outspeed all of our go-to Choice Scarf users; Toxic on the Lilligant switch-in from defensive Pokemon like Regirock and Quagsire isn't effective against sets with Z-Heal Bell or Z-Aromatherapy , etc. I also wouldn't say that scouting its set is an effective way of combating its versatility either, as this kind of tactic may lead to it obtaining an extra QD boost and can therefore be extremely punishing. This leads me to question the merits of keeping this in the tier if it both requires multiple checks to beat it, and if these same checks are nearly omnipresent across games occurring at a high(er) level of play.To make matters worse, viable Choice Scarf users that both outspeed +1 Lilligant (460 Spe or higher) and are able to OHKO it through a SpDef boost provided by Quiver Dance (after SR) are relatively scarce, which only reinforces this notion that Lilligant is overly constrictive with regard to teambuilding:This isn't to say that scarfers slower than +1 Lilligant don't exist. Of course mid-Speed scarfers will still be used, but they'll be used more for specific functions (for example, beating Pokemon common to rain teams in Abomasnow's / Aurorus's / Kabutops's cases and checking a large portion of the unboosted meta in general), rather than trying generally to maintain utility in RKOing boosted sweepers like Lilligant. If you do choose one of these mid-Speed scarfers, you will either need a second Choice Scarf user faster than +1 Lilligant, or alternatively, a hard counter to +1 Lilligant (which is much riskier if entry hazards are in play). For the express function of RKOing +1 Lilligant, there's only a handful of options available (and can explain why you mostly see either Primeape or Dodrio on offense, bulky offense, and balance), which again supports this idea that the degree to which Lilligant is centralizing is excessive. It may be obvious, but just to drive the point home, this game is a decent example of what happens if you're relying only on mid-Speed scarfers to pressure Lilligant out of setting up, rather than answering it with a faster scarfer or some mixture of Pokemon like Alolan Sandslash+Oricorio-E to counter each of its sets.On the flipside, we're seeing a lot of teams with multiple Lilligant checks built with its versatility in mind, but Lilligant itself is weirdly uncommon in top level play. It's highly effective and versatile, but its defensive utility is lacking enough to the point it's not splashable. Lilligant tends to not lend its team much support as far as switching directly into threats goes (different from how Victreebel interacts with threats like Gurdurr, for example); rather, builds with Lilligant are built intentionally around this Pokemon. yogi pretty much hit the nail on the head when he talked about its 'splashability' and how there are only a few builds that fit Lilligant well without becoming weak to something else,At this point I'm not sure what I'll vote - there are a few factors pulling me in each direction; I really searched high and low for replays, and it turns out it's actually kind of rare to see Lilligant break past its own counters or just overpower full teams that were built with it in mind. At the same time however, you can see above from those replays I posted that it's hugely centralizing and has a stifling effect on teambuilding. Hopefully after having read this, you'll better know how to vote. Let's Pokemon Go to the polls!