Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.

Glon Profile Joined December 2010 United States 568 Posts Last Edited: 2013-03-11 17:33:21 #1 ZvT: Early Game • Mid Game • Late Game ZvZ: Early Game • Mid Game • Late Game ZvP: Early Game • Mid Game • Late Game



Anyone is allowed to answer. Try to backup your statements with pro game examples whenever possible. However, if you assert something wildly wrong, especially without enough support, you will be warned/banned. If you are unsure of the validity of an idea, just ask a question instead.



In general this thread is here to help bridge the gap between proven pro level strategies/ideas and the average player, not for you to give your opinion (unless it has very sufficient grounding from pro game evidence).



Don't ask the same questions that are in the OP.











Top Q. What is the best way to deal with drops?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Blade55555 wrote:

Dealing with drops what I do once the game gets going is I leave a small pack of lings with 2-3 banes with them to defend drops at my main + 3rd/4'th base location. A couple spines as well with a spore or 2. That is the best way to deal with it so you can deal with an attack while defending against a drop as well.



The spines are useful in delaying his drops from doing a lot of damage if you don't have units over there or if he kills all the ling/bane you left behind to deal with drops. The spores can kill the medivacs so he can't just run off or if you are lucky will kill the medivac before he even gets his units out.





Q. How many spores do I need verse cloaked banshee?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Blade55555 wrote:

If it's only 1 starport you should only put 1 at each base. In the mineral line preferably, if he starts taking shots at the hatchery and what not you can move it, then cancel the burrow when he moves his banshee away. I rarely make 2, but then normally when there is cloak banshee out on the field your lair should be close to being done so you can just make an overseer.



But generally you want 1 in mineral line of main/nat/third.



If your lair hasn't started for some reason and cloak banshee I would make 2 then.



If it’s 2 starport should probably make 2-3 at each base and add queens.



Q. How do you defending a 2 rax when they pull 5 SCV’s?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Glon wrote:



1. To defend ANY sort of 2 rax, you should:

a) Identify that it is a 2 rax. Stop droning and build an overlord (on 16 or 17 supply)

b) Send ~3 drones to your natural, and damage SCV's as much as possible

c) DENY THE FIRST BUNKER. When you see the marine and more SCV's coming up, pull almost all drones from your main and make sure to deny the first bunker. To do this: 2 drones should target the first marine, some A move into the SCVs, some attack bunker directly

d) When your pool pops, build a spine at the back of your natural and constantly pump lings. I prefer to NOT build a queen and continue ling production. If you see an opportunity, run ~8-10 lings past the bunker and intercept rallying marines.

e) Be careful with your spine. There will be a timing when you have enough lings to pull your drones with the lings and kill everything the terran has. Make sure to do this before your natural hatchery dies, and try to engage while your natural hatch still has ~500 health (so it can't just be focused)



Top Q. Are hydralisks good to add in ZvZ with roach/infestor or is more infestors better?

+ Show Spoiler + Blade55555 wrote:



Roach/hydra/infestor will beat a roach/infestor player in a straight up fight. Hydras are actually good in ZvZ and I would recommend any Zerg to start adding them into your roach/infestor army once you get to about 130-150 supply. This doesn't mean you win for sure against a roach/infestor player though. If you attack sloppily like up a ramp or he gets a full surround his roach/infestor army will kill you.



If both of you get equel concaves or anything like that you should win unless he has more units or way better upgrades. In an even scenario though you will wint his fight 100% of the time as long as you don't engage badly.



If you want to go roach/infestor and not add hydras you need to be doing roach hit squads, burrowed infestors and try not to fight the roach/hydra/infestor army straight up unless he is going up a ramp and you get him then.



Q. How do I defending 10 pool baneling with 15 pool?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Glon wrote:



You can identify whether it's a macro 10 pool if you opponent takes a hatchery (your first scouting overlord should be parked at the natural). If your opponent does not take a hatchery at a reasonable time (I will edit in the exact time stamp tomorrow, I'm tired), then immediately do NOT inject with your queens and pull both to the ramp. Build a spine in your main, at the edge of the creep closest to the ramp. If you took gas, build a baneling nest before speed. Get ready to hit some snap transfuses are banelings crash into your queens. As long as you can buy time for your own banelings to come up, you're in good shape.



Constantly sink your money into lings, and when possible, a few extra queens never hurt anyone.



Top Q. What is the best way to creep spread in ZvP?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Blade55555 wrote:



What I do is add my 4th queen when my third finishes. I found this a great way to spread creep well. I have so far found this to be the best way and it helps a lot verse early air since you have 4 queens already.



What I like to do in general is with my first queen inject, then instead of injecting on the next 25 energy, I lay down a creep tumor. Then I make my 4th queen out of my third hatchery and just keep creep spreading from there.





Q. How should I play ZvP in the end game?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Glon wrote:



Generally, you should be aiming to get up a brood lord/infestor/corrupter army for the late game. Your end game composition of roaches will get smashed once Protoss gets up colossus and a ball of stalkers -- Think of roaches as a MEANS to GET TO the end game composition.





Don't be afraid to expand -- When I am coaching students, I tell them as a general rule to always make a hatchery (whether a macro hatchery or a new expansion) whenever they have 1,000 minerals. But, as a general rule, staying 1 base ahead of your protoss opponent is a pretty good idea.



It sounds like you have the right idea for the mid game -- Start working on getting infestors and using fungal growth to lock down enemy units, then getting a hive and a greater spire to move onto brood lords at around the 15:00-16:00 minute mark (you should be on 4 bases)



Q. Should I fight to keep my third alive verse a voidray/phoenix opening?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Glon wrote:



This is correct. In every situation, there's almost no reason to lose your third. Even just pulling all of your queens and quickly throwing down 3-4 emergency spores will save it (say if it was like a 2 stargate that you didn't see). Don't forget to put down 1-2 in your main/natural though, don't want him just moving to your main and killing everything there.



Also don't forget to control the map with zerglings. If you see gateway units moving out with a probe (you already should have scoured the map for a proxy pylon), make roaches/lings. In the case of a stargate/+1 gateway aggression, roaches and queens are your friends. Zerglings tend to melt, however are great for spotting around them and harassing the proxy pylon(s) while the protoss is making his first pokes with his zealots.



Q. In late game ZvP how do I deal with late game warp prism harass?

+ Show Spoiler [Answer] + Blade55555 wrote:



Once you stop having a mobile army and are transitioning into bl/corr/infestor as well as having a bank of minerals, that is when you want to start putting static defense everywhere. I would put spores at the end of your bases so they can shoot at the warp prism and spines just a ton of spines everywhere. Make sure to remake drones when doing this!



If you do not remake drones you will fall behind economically because you will have very little minerals due to low drone count. This is very important to do as going from 80 workers to 50 is a huge difference in economy and you do not want this. Also make sure to have static defenses blocking and guarding tech structures such as infestation pit and the greater spire. There is nothing more annoying then losing your greater spire . Once you stop having a mobile army and are transitioning into bl/corr/infestor as well as having a bank of minerals, that is when you want to start putting static defense everywhere. I would put spores at the end of your bases so they can shoot at the warp prism and spines just a ton of spines everywhere. Make sure to remake drones when doing this!If you do not remake drones you will fall behind economically because you will have very little minerals due to low drone count. This is very important to do as going from 80 workers to 50 is a huge difference in economy and you do not want this. Also make sure to have static defenses blocking and guarding tech structures such as infestation pit and the greater spire. There is nothing more annoying then losing your greater spire

Writeups by glon and blade55555

Graphics by pathy

Formatting by wo1fwood @QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon

numLoCK Profile Blog Joined November 2008 Canada 1416 Posts #2 atm liquipedia and such seem to have very limited information on build orders.

Can you hook me up with a basic build order for ZvT and the basic variations and scouting timings for say, mass reaper and for 3rax? Or actually, just basic variations and scouting timings for whatever that terran is up too would be great.

RC_Fixer Profile Joined August 2010 United States 21 Posts #3 Noob 1000 Diamond Over here you know what I strongly believe there is a "slight" imbalance in ZvT showing how many of the tournaments of high level play there arent many Zerg in the finals. Then again its just my opinion. Now for the my question of the thread...

It seems that some games the enemy Terran will Mass Thors to a certain number in a situation like this what would you do assuming you have Lair Tech, Etc. Or is it simply im Noob and not suppose to allow numbers to grow that big? What if he adds hellions to the mix? That is all sorry for so many questions

Either way thanks if you respond and go Zerg!

mOnion Profile Blog Joined August 2009 United States 5352 Posts #4



take advantage of this while you can



+ Show Spoiler + can you get huk to do this too? ;____; i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met.take advantage of this while you can ☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill

birdkicker Profile Blog Joined August 2010 United States 718 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:07:31 #5



Edit: Oh and also, any talented zerg player and/or saracen. What is your current build order for ZvZ, do you prefer roaches or zerglings. What is a good time to expand in a ZvZ. And also, when should i get my 2nd gas?



As someone said, PLEASE populate the zerg liquipedia section. Especially on ZvZ, it seems like there is nothing good listed there. My question is located at THIS THREAD . Basically, I would like some more tips and strategy's on when to get my geysers up and various factors to improve my mutalisk build versus both terran and protoss. Please post in the thread or quote this reply and reply in this thread. Thanks for the help!Edit: Oh and also, any talented zerg player and/or saracen. What is your current build order for ZvZ, do you prefer roaches or zerglings. What is a good time to expand in a ZvZ. And also, when should i get my 2nd gas?As someone said, PLEASE populate the zerg liquipedia section. Especially on ZvZ, it seems like there is nothing good listed there.

kzn Profile Blog Joined June 2007 United States 1216 Posts #6 Would it be traitorous of you to help me vs Zerg :< Like a G6

Carnivorous Sheep Profile Blog Joined November 2008 Baa? 14081 Posts #7 When do you start getting 2/2 upgrades? Be as detailed or as vague as you want lol, I've just been going with "whenever I can afford it." Translator Baa!

MrBitter Profile Joined January 2008 United States 2912 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:19:33 #8 On September 21 2010 11:00 RC_Fixer wrote:

Noob 1000 Diamond Over here you know what I strongly believe there is a "slight" imbalance in ZvT showing how many of the tournaments of high level play there arent many Zerg in the finals. Then again its just my opinion. Now for the my question of the thread...

It seems that some games the enemy Terran will Mass Thors to a certain number in a situation like this what would you do assuming you have Lair Tech, Etc. Or is it simply im Noob and not suppose to allow numbers to grow that big? What if he adds hellions to the mix? That is all sorry for so many questions

Either way thanks if you respond and go Zerg!



As unintuitive as it may sound, I'm a firm believer in using mutas to keep thor numbers in check until ultras can come into play.



Stay up an expansion, use all your gas on muta, and pump lings with the rest. Stay active with your mutas so that T isn't allowed to just sit still and mass. Harass expos, harass depots, kill turrets (easy to do with zero losses once you get about 8-10 muta) and just be a general nuisance.



A T dedicating to mech (mass thor) is probably not going to have much in the way of marines. If he does, you'll see it with your muta, and you can respond with banes and a couple festors. If he doesn't, tech up to ultra as soon as you feel like you have room. (ie: When T is in full-on turtle mode)



When you engage his thors with your mutas, remember to magic box.



Other than that, just mass up and roll over the guy.



As unintuitive as it may sound, I'm a firm believer in using mutas to keep thor numbers in check until ultras can come into play.Stay up an expansion, use all your gas on muta, and pump lings with the rest. Stay active with your mutas so that T isn't allowed to just sit still and mass. Harass expos, harass depots, kill turrets (easy to do with zero losses once you get about 8-10 muta) and just be a general nuisance.A T dedicating to mech (mass thor) is probably not going to have much in the way of marines. If he does, you'll see it with your muta, and you can respond with banes and a couple festors. If he doesn't, tech up to ultra as soon as you feel like you have room. (ie: When T is in full-on turtle mode)When you engage his thors with your mutas, remember to magic box.Other than that, just mass up and roll over the guy. On September 21 2010 11:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:

When do you start getting 2/2 upgrades? Be as detailed or as vague as you want lol, I've just been going with "whenever I can afford it."



vs Toss I always get my first evo chamber before lair. I will get +1 attack if I see NO forge. +1 carapace is I see any forge. I'll go for +2/1 almost immediately after +1 finishes.



vs T, I wait until lair before starting upgrades. This is because its not until lair tech that I'll decide whether to commit to muta, or to ling/bling/infestor. In the case of a ground army, I'll often just drop a double evo and start with +1/1 right away. Pros tend to start with just one, though.



On September 21 2010 11:02 VirtuallyLost wrote:

My question is located at



Edit: Oh and also, any talented zerg player and/or saracen. What is your current build order for ZvZ, do you prefer roaches or zerglings. What is a good time to expand in a ZvZ. And also, when should i get my 2nd gas?



As someone said, PLEASE populate the zerg liquipedia section. Especially on ZvZ, it seems like there is nothing good listed there. My question is located at THIS THREAD . Basically, I would like some more tips and strategy's on when to get my geysers up and various factors to improve my mutalisk build versus both terran and protoss. Please post in the thread or quote this reply and reply in this thread. Thanks for the help!Edit: Oh and also, any talented zerg player and/or saracen. What is your current build order for ZvZ, do you prefer roaches or zerglings. What is a good time to expand in a ZvZ. And also, when should i get my 2nd gas?As someone said, PLEASE populate the zerg liquipedia section. Especially on ZvZ, it seems like there is nothing good listed there.



Geyser timings are pretty universal, in my opinion. After getting ling speed, take all but 1 drone out of gas. When that 1 drone mines 100 gas, start lair, and add your next 3 geysers.



Your muta question really requires a replay.



ZvZ is a pretty dynamic matchup. I don't really have a single BO that I stick to.

If he's going to be aggressive with early roaches, I like to just overwhelm with lots and lots of lings.



If he's going to make a slower roach push, I like to block my ramp with roaches of my own, and tech to muta.



If he's going sling/bling, and I can block my ramp easily, I'll go roach into muta.



If he's going sling/bling on maps with fatter ramps, then I'll go ahead and play the baneling micro wars.



In general, I dislike ZvZ. I'd probably look to Saracen for better answers to that question.



vs Toss I always get my first evo chamber before lair. I will get +1 attack if I see NO forge. +1 carapace is I see any forge. I'll go for +2/1 almost immediately after +1 finishes.vs T, I wait until lair before starting upgrades. This is because its not until lair tech that I'll decide whether to commit to muta, or to ling/bling/infestor. In the case of a ground army, I'll often just drop a double evo and start with +1/1 right away. Pros tend to start with just one, though.Geyser timings are pretty universal, in my opinion. After getting ling speed, take all but 1 drone out of gas. When that 1 drone mines 100 gas, start lair, and add your next 3 geysers.Your muta question really requires a replay.ZvZ is a pretty dynamic matchup. I don't really have a single BO that I stick to.If he's going to be aggressive with early roaches, I like to just overwhelm with lots and lots of lings.If he's going to make a slower roach push, I like to block my ramp with roaches of my own, and tech to muta.If he's going sling/bling, and I can block my ramp easily, I'll go roach into muta.If he's going sling/bling on maps with fatter ramps, then I'll go ahead and play the baneling micro wars.In general, I dislike ZvZ. I'd probably look to Saracen for better answers to that question. On September 21 2010 10:59 numLoCK wrote:

atm liquipedia and such seem to have very limited information on build orders.

Can you hook me up with a basic build order for ZvT and the basic variations and scouting timings for say, mass reaper and for 3rax? Or actually, just basic variations and scouting timings for whatever that terran is up too would be great.



The only BO I ever use in ZvT is 14 gas, 14 pool, 21 expo, deviating after that based on what I scout.



Forget timings, and just resolve yourself to sacrificing an overlord.

1st: Scout with your drone, keeping him alive as long as possible. Stealing gas is almost always a good idea.

2nd: Poke at his front with 2 lings. Maybe you can see something? Maybe his army composition will give you a hint? Maybe he's kept you blind.

3rd: Now you sac an overlord.



I've yet to play a game where I've been unable to figure out what T is up to using the above as my guideline for scouting.



I'm a 1300 Diamond Zerg player. The only BO I ever use in ZvT is 14 gas, 14 pool, 21 expo, deviating after that based on what I scout.Forget timings, and just resolve yourself to sacrificing an overlord.1st: Scout with your drone, keeping him alive as long as possible. Stealing gas is almost always a good idea.2nd: Poke at his front with 2 lings. Maybe you can see something? Maybe his army composition will give you a hint? Maybe he's kept you blind.3rd: Now you sac an overlord.I've yet to play a game where I've been unable to figure out what T is up to using the above as my guideline for scouting.I'm a 1300 Diamond Zerg player.

cerebralz Profile Joined August 2009 United States 443 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:26:55 #9 I've been having better success vs terran lately. there are 3 rushes that i'm at a loss how to stop though, if i do my standard "safe" build. (14 gas, 14 pool speed expand with 2 queens)



1) All in 4 rax pure rine with stim



Of course i need your standard roach/ling/bling mix to counter this, but the timing comes before i can get baneling speed and enough roaches to tank. Without roach speed and bling speed i constantly get kited until i run out of steam.



2) Delayed reaper/marine/Marauder push



Off of 4 rax 2 reapers, 5 marines, 4 marauders with stim again this comes before i can get bling speed and roach speed. I've tried pure speedling but without perfect micro the marauders tank like crazy while the reapers/marines pick off everything.



3) Vs. Protoss forge contain



idk if i have to just consider taking a drone to patrol the bottom of the ramp so this doesn't happen. once it does though, you have to drop 1-2 spines to make sure you don't get all out cannoned, and then you are so behind. I've tried nydus into double expo but even then your production is so behind the P can do pretty much anything and win.

Pfeff Profile Joined August 2010 United States 270 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:31:23 #10 On September 21 2010 10:59 numLoCK wrote:

atm liquipedia and such seem to have very limited information on build orders.

Can you hook me up with a basic build order for ZvT and the basic variations and scouting timings for say, mass reaper and for 3rax? Or actually, just basic variations and scouting timings for whatever that terran is up too would be great.



That's an easy one.



9 OL

13 Pool

Drone to 15

Queen once pool is done, speed immediately also

Baneling nest when queen is halfway

Bust through the wall

Kill everything That's an easy one.9 OL13 PoolDrone to 15Queen once pool is done, speed immediately alsoBaneling nest when queen is halfwayBust through the wallKill everything When your loading screen shows my name, just F10 -> N

Zvendetta Profile Joined July 2010 United States 321 Posts #11 I recently saw a replay where a terran player did a thor hellion push with scvs repairing against a very high level zerg. There were even siege tanks in the mix (3). Amidst the army composition, i am wary of calling "imbalanced," but it seemed that even though there were tons of roaches, the zerg player couldn't out dps the repair. A healthy mix of thors, hellions, and tanks, just exactly what can overcome this rolling death machine? "Its as if I can see the gears of the Eternal Alchemy spinning before, and I can almost reach out and turn them with my hands."

Saracen Profile Blog Joined December 2007 United States 5139 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:35:32 #12 On September 21 2010 10:59 numLoCK wrote:

atm liquipedia and such seem to have very limited information on build orders.

Can you hook me up with a basic build order for ZvT and the basic variations and scouting timings for say, mass reaper and for 3rax? Or actually, just basic variations and scouting timings for whatever

that terran is up too would be great.

I'm glad you're switching to Z

So what I do is:

14 gas

13 pool

15 overlord

15 queen, take drones off of gas, research speed

1 pair of zerglings

21 expand

22 overlord

all drones with the first spawn larva

26 queen, put drones back on gas

get lair once the queen finishes

poop one tumor with that queen and send it over to the natural

roach warren when I get the money for it

baneling's nest if I think they are doing some 1base allin attack

I still sort of fudge gas timings (the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th geysers) which is pretty bad, so I can't tell you anything about that. I'm going to make a conscious effort to establish some solid timings, though!



As for scouting:

If it's on a map like Lost Temple or Delta Quadrant, I'll try to send an early drone to steal their gas so they can't do any cliff bullshit (or it will be significantly delayed). Otherwise, I send a later drone (maybe 14 or 15) to check how fast their first barracks is. It will also check for a fast tech lab on the barracks (which means reapers 99% of the time). The first overlord goes some roundabout way to the back of their base so it doesn't get sniped by marines. The second one goes to the natural to scout bunker shenanigans. After killing the scout SCV, the first lings go up their ramp to check on marine production and the barracks addon. Also, most Ts will build a factory close to the barracks if they are doing hellion play, so it checks for that as well. Finally, it checks for a second CC. I like to start sending the overlord in at around 30 supply if I'm still not sure what they're doing. If it turns out that they are doing a 1base attack, I'll stop droning at around 26-30 drones and make pure lings/roaches/banelings. Banelings are necessary in case he brings his SCVs and/or he has lots of marines.



So here's a little recap versus standard rax timings:

Your ling/drone sees rax with no addons:

- your opponent probably sucks and is gonna try some stupid mass marine or mass marine/marauder + SCV allin

- get banelings

- alternatively he could be rushing banshees or something

Your ling/drone sees rax with fast tech lab no factory:

- reapers (I'll write more about these little buggers later)

- can transition into 1rax reaper -> anything, 3rax reaper expand, or 5rax reaper, always send your overlord in to see what he's doing and adjust accordingly

- against 3 or more rax from a reaper opponent, it's very possible that he switches to a marine/reaper/marauder/(SCV) allin, so get a lot of shit, spread your creep, and get some banelings if you see him stopping reaper production in favor of marines

Your ling/drone sees rax with later tech lab (this means the rax and fac will switch so the fac will have the tech lab) and a factory and constant marine pump:

- either marine/tank or marine/hellion

- roach/ling with a nice surround works against both

Your ling/drone sees rax with later tech lab and a factory and no marine pump:

- probably either an igniter hellion drop or fast banshee build.

- against igniter hellions, spreading overlords around your base is key, as well as spreading creep off of that first tumor

- always watch the minimap

- banshees are covered below

Your ling/drone sees a rax with a reactor and a factory and no marine pump:

- reactor hellion expand

- drone up and get 2 crawlers at your natural

- alternatively, he could be hiding rax in the back for a marauder/hellion/(thor) attack

- not much you can do besides get a lot of shit (roach/ling or try to rush mutas behind some crawlers)

Your ling/drone sees a rax with a reactor and a factory and constant marine pump:

- marine/hellion attack

- speedlings should do just fine if he attacks early. If he waits for a critical mass of hellions, you need roaches or something, but by then your crawlers should be up anyways so it shouldn't really matter...



For ANY of these builds, you ALWAYS want to send in that overlord at around 30 supply so you can check if he decided to take a faster gas and go banshee or a medivac for drops or take a slower gas and get his expo. Against banshees, get a spire ASAP and build more queens. Banshees take ages to build in comparison to queens. I'm glad you're switching to ZSo what I do is:14 gas13 pool15 overlord15 queen, take drones off of gas, research speed1 pair of zerglings21 expand22 overlordall drones with the first spawn larva26 queen, put drones back on gasget lair once the queen finishespoop one tumor with that queen and send it over to the naturalroach warren when I get the money for itbaneling's nest if I think they are doing some 1base allin attackI still sort of fudge gas timings (the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th geysers) which is pretty bad, so I can't tell you anything about that. I'm going to make a conscious effort to establish some solid timings, though!As for scouting:If it's on a map like Lost Temple or Delta Quadrant, I'll try to send an early drone to steal their gas so they can't do any cliff bullshit (or it will be significantly delayed). Otherwise, I send a later drone (maybe 14 or 15) to check how fast their first barracks is. It will also check for a fast tech lab on the barracks (which means reapers 99% of the time). The first overlord goes some roundabout way to the back of their base so it doesn't get sniped by marines. The second one goes to the natural to scout bunker shenanigans. After killing the scout SCV, the first lings go up their ramp to check on marine production and the barracks addon. Also, most Ts will build a factory close to the barracks if they are doing hellion play, so it checks for that as well. Finally, it checks for a second CC. I like to start sending the overlord in at around 30 supply if I'm still not sure what they're doing. If it turns out that they are doing a 1base attack, I'll stop droning at around 26-30 drones and make pure lings/roaches/banelings. Banelings are necessary in case he brings his SCVs and/or he has lots of marines.So here's a little recap versus standard rax timings:Your ling/drone sees rax with no addons:- your opponent probably sucks and is gonna try some stupid mass marine or mass marine/marauder + SCV allin- get banelings- alternatively he could be rushing banshees or somethingYour ling/drone sees rax with fast tech lab no factory:- reapers (I'll write more about these little buggers later)- can transition into 1rax reaper -> anything, 3rax reaper expand, or 5rax reaper, always send your overlord in to see what he's doing and adjust accordingly- against 3 or more rax from a reaper opponent, it's very possible that he switches to a marine/reaper/marauder/(SCV) allin, so get a lot of shit, spread your creep, and get some banelings if you see him stopping reaper production in favor of marinesYour ling/drone sees rax with later tech lab (this means the rax and fac will switch so the fac will have the tech lab) and a factory and constant marine pump:- either marine/tank or marine/hellion- roach/ling with a nice surround works against bothYour ling/drone sees rax with later tech lab and a factory and no marine pump:- probably either an igniter hellion drop or fast banshee build.- against igniter hellions, spreading overlords around your base is key, as well as spreading creep off of that first tumor- always watch the minimap- banshees are covered belowYour ling/drone sees a rax with a reactor and a factory and no marine pump:- reactor hellion expand- drone up and get 2 crawlers at your natural- alternatively, he could be hiding rax in the back for a marauder/hellion/(thor) attack- not much you can do besides get a lot of shit (roach/ling or try to rush mutas behind some crawlers)Your ling/drone sees a rax with a reactor and a factory and constant marine pump:- marine/hellion attack- speedlings should do just fine if he attacks early. If he waits for a critical mass of hellions, you need roaches or something, but by then your crawlers should be up anyways so it shouldn't really matter...For ANY of these builds, you ALWAYS want to send in that overlord at around 30 supply so you can check if he decided to take a faster gas and go banshee or a medivac for drops or take a slower gas and get his expo. Against banshees, get a spire ASAP and build more queens. Banshees take ages to build in comparison to queens.

MrBitter Profile Joined January 2008 United States 2912 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:36:17 #13 On September 21 2010 11:25 cerebralz wrote:

I've been having better success vs terran lately. there are 3 rushes that i'm at a loss how to stop though, if i do my standard "safe" build. (14 gas, 14 pool speed expand with 2 queens)



1) All in 4 rax pure rine with stim



Of course i need your standard roach/ling/bling mix to counter this, but the timing comes before i can get baneling speed and enough roaches to tank. Without roach speed and bling speed i constantly get kited until i run out of steam.



2) Delayed reaper/marine/Marauder push



Off of 4 rax 2 reapers, 5 marines, 4 marauders with stim again this comes before i can get bling speed and roach speed. I've tried pure speedling but without perfect micro the marauders tank like crazy while the reapers/marines pick off everything.



3) Vs. Protoss forge contain



idk if i have to just consider taking a drone to patrol the bottom of the ramp so this doesn't happen. once it does though, you have to drop 1-2 spines to make sure you don't get all out cannoned, and then you are so behind. I've tried nydus into double expo but even then your production is so behind the P can do pretty much anything and win.



1.) You don't have to have bane speed. Lings from behind to stop a retreat, and win. Winning with Zerg is at least 50% reliant on good positioning.



2.) Biggest thing here is scouting. If you see it coming you should be able to drop 2-4 spines at your nat in plenty of time. Again, you don't have to get bling speed. Just use lings to clog up the retreat.



3.) Two things:

1st: If you scout forge, you MUST get a drone to the bottom of your ramp on patrol. If you watch a lot of Check replays (or is it Cool?), you'll notice that he does this in every ZvP, before he even scouts the toss. If you prevent the contain, expand on time, and grats, you're ahead.



2nd: If he manages to get it up, you've got a couple choices.



One cute trick I like to do: Hatchery cancel into evo chamber in his nat. Do this if he built the forge in his main. (ie: No pylon in range of the nat) This way, you can still have your expo down before toss after you bust out.



Busting out: Don't build spines. If he just uses one cannon to contain you, 5 roaches can get you down your ramp easily. Target the cannon unless you absolutely can't reach it. Once you're down, just expand and play normally.



The other option is going all-in. If you take that route, don't bust out. Just tech to lair and try a Nydus play. If it works, you win, if it doesn't, you lose. Simple as that.



Ultimately, the most important thing is just preventing that contain from happening.



edit: Jesus, Saracen gives such better answers than me... 1.) You don't have to have bane speed. Lings from behind to stop a retreat, and win. Winning with Zerg is at50% reliant on good positioning.2.) Biggest thing here is scouting. If you see it coming you should be able to drop 2-4 spines at your nat in plenty of time. Again, you don't have to get bling speed. Just use lings to clog up the retreat.3.) Two things:1st: If you scout forge, you MUST get a drone to the bottom of your ramp on patrol. If you watch a lot of Check replays (or is it Cool?), you'll notice that he does this in every ZvP, before he even scouts the toss. If you prevent the contain, expand on time, and grats, you're ahead.2nd: If he manages to get it up, you've got a couple choices.One cute trick I like to do: Hatchery cancel into evo chamber in his nat. Do this if he built the forge in his main. (ie: No pylon in range of the nat) This way, you can still have your expo down before toss after you bust out.Busting out: Don't build spines. If he just uses one cannon to contain you, 5 roaches can get you down your ramp easily. Target the cannon unless you absolutely can't reach it. Once you're down, just expand and play normally.The other option is going all-in. If you take that route, don't bust out. Just tech to lair and try a Nydus play. If it works, you win, if it doesn't, you lose. Simple as that.Ultimately, the most important thing is just preventing that contain from happening.edit: Jesus, Saracen gives such better answers than me...

Saracen Profile Blog Joined December 2007 United States 5139 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-21 02:41:30 #14 On September 21 2010 11:00 RC_Fixer wrote:

Noob 1000 Diamond Over here you know what I strongly believe there is a "slight" imbalance in ZvT showing how many of the tournaments of high level play there arent many Zerg in the finals. Then again its just my opinion. Now for the my question of the thread...

It seems that some games the enemy Terran will Mass Thors to a certain number in a situation like this what would you do assuming you have Lair Tech, Etc. Or is it simply im Noob and not suppose to allow numbers to grow that big? What if he adds hellions to the mix? That is all sorry for so many questions

Either way thanks if you respond and go Zerg!

So, popular to contrary belief, it's actually very easy to mass thors of of 2 rax with tech labs. There's really nothing you can do against this, especially if he gets fast upgrades and has another reactor factory or two for hellions. I honestly don't know what to do against mass thors. One thing I do know, though, is that magic box mutas are NOT the answer. Zelniq says he's been having some success with mass roach as long as you can focus down the thors. I don't think this is the way to go since 1. they are extremely supply-ineffective against Terran, meaning a 200/200 hellion/thor army will squash a 200/200 roach army (and yes, Terran CAN get 200/200 hellion/thor off of 2 base) 2. a few tanks will make the roaches pretty useless. Right now, I'm playing around with roach -> infestor -> fast hive + brood lords as well as nydus play. Unfortunately, nydus play is map dependent. It's worth mentioning that against thors, upgrades are SUPER important.



On September 21 2010 11:02 mOnion wrote:

i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met.



take advantage of this while you can



+ Show Spoiler + can you get huk to do this too? ;____; i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met.take advantage of this while you can

Thanks momo. I will get HuK in on this once you hook me up with your sister. So, popular to contrary belief, it's actually very easy to mass thors of of 2 rax with tech labs. There's really nothing you can do against this, especially if he gets fast upgrades and has another reactor factory or two for hellions. I honestly don't know what to do against mass thors. One thing I do know, though, is that magic box mutas are NOT the answer. Zelniq says he's been having some success with mass roach as long as you can focus down the thors. I don't think this is the way to go since 1. they are extremely supply-ineffective against Terran, meaning a 200/200 hellion/thor army will squash a 200/200 roach army (and yes, Terran CAN get 200/200 hellion/thor off of 2 base) 2. a few tanks will make the roaches pretty useless. Right now, I'm playing around with roach -> infestor -> fast hive + brood lords as well as nydus play. Unfortunately, nydus play is map dependent. It's worth mentioning that against thors, upgrades are SUPER important.Thanks momo. I will get HuK in on this once you hook me up with your sister.

Pfeff Profile Joined August 2010 United States 270 Posts #15 On September 21 2010 11:31 Zvendetta wrote:

I recently saw a replay where a terran player did a thor hellion push with scvs repairing against a very high level zerg. There were even siege tanks in the mix (3). Amidst the army composition, i am wary of calling "imbalanced," but it seemed that even though there were tons of roaches, the zerg player couldn't out dps the repair. A healthy mix of thors, hellions, and tanks, just exactly what can overcome this rolling death machine?



Banelings on the SCV's I have found to be awesome Banelings on the SCV's I have found to be awesome When your loading screen shows my name, just F10 -> N

mOnion Profile Blog Joined August 2009 United States 5352 Posts #16 On September 21 2010 11:40 Saracen wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 21 2010 11:00 RC_Fixer wrote:

Noob 1000 Diamond Over here you know what I strongly believe there is a "slight" imbalance in ZvT showing how many of the tournaments of high level play there arent many Zerg in the finals. Then again its just my opinion. Now for the my question of the thread...

It seems that some games the enemy Terran will Mass Thors to a certain number in a situation like this what would you do assuming you have Lair Tech, Etc. Or is it simply im Noob and not suppose to allow numbers to grow that big? What if he adds hellions to the mix? That is all sorry for so many questions

Either way thanks if you respond and go Zerg!

So, popular to contrary belief, it's actually very easy to mass thors of of 2 rax with tech labs. There's really nothing you can do against this, especially if he gets fast upgrades and has another reactor factory or two for hellions. I honestly don't know what to do against mass thors. One thing I do know, though, is that magic box mutas are NOT the answer. Zelniq says he's been having some success with mass roach as long as you can focus down the thors. I don't think this is the way to go since 1. they are extremely supply-ineffective against Terran, meaning a 200/200 hellion/thor army will squash a 200/200 roach army (and yes, Terran CAN get 200/200 hellion/thor off of 2 base) 2. a few tanks will make the roaches pretty useless. Right now, I'm playing around with roach -> infestor -> fast hive + brood lords as well as nydus play. Unfortunately, nydus play is map dependent. It's worth mentioning that against thors, upgrades are SUPER important.



Show nested quote +

On September 21 2010 11:02 mOnion wrote:

i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met.



take advantage of this while you can



+ Show Spoiler + can you get huk to do this too? ;____; i'm reiterating the fact that you zergs are lucky saracen is here for you. in addition to his high ranking he is also possibly the most intelligent person i've ever met.take advantage of this while you can

Thanks momo. I will get HuK in on this once you hook me up with your sister. So, popular to contrary belief, it's actually very easy to mass thors of of 2 rax with tech labs. There's really nothing you can do against this, especially if he gets fast upgrades and has another reactor factory or two for hellions. I honestly don't know what to do against mass thors. One thing I do know, though, is that magic box mutas are NOT the answer. Zelniq says he's been having some success with mass roach as long as you can focus down the thors. I don't think this is the way to go since 1. they are extremely supply-ineffective against Terran, meaning a 200/200 hellion/thor army will squash a 200/200 roach army (and yes, Terran CAN get 200/200 hellion/thor off of 2 base) 2. a few tanks will make the roaches pretty useless. Right now, I'm playing around with roach -> infestor -> fast hive + brood lords as well as nydus play. Unfortunately, nydus play is map dependent. It's worth mentioning that against thors, upgrades are SUPER important.Thanks momo. I will get HuK in on this once you hook me up with your sister.



attend tamu and play for my team and its a done deal. attend tamu and play for my team and its a done deal. ☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill

skindzer Profile Blog Joined May 2005 Chile 5068 Posts #17 On September 21 2010 11:25 cerebralz wrote:



3) Vs. Protoss forge contain



idk if i have to just consider taking a drone to patrol the bottom of the ramp so this doesn't happen. once it does though, you have to drop 1-2 spines to make sure you don't get all out cannoned, and then you are so behind. I've tried nydus into double expo but even then your production is so behind the P can do pretty much anything and win.



This one is easy, i can answer pretty sure (1200+ Z). First of, i LOVE when P tries to cannon rush me My record agains this is like 12-2 on my favor. Even when unscouted. Remember that Sunkens OUTRANGE cannons, if he blocks your ramps with cannons just chill, start massing drones, get ling speed and build 1 sunken, more if thes reinforcing with zealots or more cannons. Also, INMEDIATELY, put an overlord to get fuyll vision of your ramp.



Ive just had a ramp when someone did this to me, wasnt quite allin because he just used to get ahead but still the principle is the same.



This one is easy, i can answer pretty sure (1200+ Z). First of, i LOVE when P tries to cannon rush me My record agains this is like 12-2 on my favor. Even when unscouted. Remember that Sunkens OUTRANGE cannons, if he blocks your ramps with cannons just chill, start massing drones, get ling speed and build 1 sunken, more if thes reinforcing with zealots or more cannons. Also, INMEDIATELY, put an overlord to get fuyll vision of your ramp.Ive just had a ramp when someone did this to me, wasnt quite allin because he just used to get ahead but still the principle is the same. Its not only the rain that brings the thunder

Saracen Profile Blog Joined December 2007 United States 5139 Posts #18 On September 21 2010 11:02 VirtuallyLost wrote:

My question is located at



Edit: Oh and also, any talented zerg player and/or saracen. What is your current build order for ZvZ, do you prefer roaches or zerglings. What is a good time to expand in a ZvZ. And also, when should i get my 2nd gas?



As someone said, PLEASE populate the zerg liquipedia section. Especially on ZvZ, it seems like there is nothing good listed there. My question is located at THIS THREAD . Basically, I would like some more tips and strategy's on when to get my geysers up and various factors to improve my mutalisk build versus both terran and protoss. Please post in the thread or quote this reply and reply in this thread. Thanks for the help!Edit: Oh and also, any talented zerg player and/or saracen. What is your current build order for ZvZ, do you prefer roaches or zerglings. What is a good time to expand in a ZvZ. And also, when should i get my 2nd gas?As someone said, PLEASE populate the zerg liquipedia section. Especially on ZvZ, it seems like there is nothing good listed there.

As I said earlier, I do my gas timings by feel, which is a habit I really need to kick. My style is to drone up as much as possible, get a bunch of lings and a super fast 3rd base + 2nd hatch in the main, and then get mutas that are a bit delayed (especially against Protoss). I usually base my gas timings on my drone timings. Only after I feel like I've droned up sufficiently for the midgame (50-60 drones) do I start taking all my geysers. However, what most Zergs do is take earlier gas for faster mutas so they can actually pressure the Terran/Protoss and drone up later. The problem with this is that you're more vulnerable to fast attacks that include marine/thor or stalkers, but it's also really nice because not only do you get more mutas faster, but you have more mutas in general so you reach a so-called "critical mass" much more quickly. But yeah, just play around with gas timings and see what feels best. Maybe try 2nd gas when your lair starts an 3rd and 4th when it finishes? I dunno, sorry I can't give a more concrete answer.



Also, you need to get banelings as well against Protoss if you are opening muta/ling because zealots are too good of meatshields for stalkers and you need something to bust down that wall.



For ZvZ, I wrote a little something here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=151547#12 As I said earlier, I do my gas timings by feel, which is a habit I really need to kick. My style is to drone up as much as possible, get a bunch of lings and a super fast 3rd base + 2nd hatch in the main, and then get mutas that are a bit delayed (especially against Protoss). I usually base my gas timings on my drone timings. Only after I feel like I've droned up sufficiently for the midgame (50-60 drones) do I start taking all my geysers. However, what most Zergs do is take earlier gas for faster mutas so they can actually pressure the Terran/Protoss and drone up later. The problem with this is that you're more vulnerable to fast attacks that include marine/thor or stalkers, but it's also really nice because not only do you get more mutas faster, but you have more mutas in general so you reach a so-called "critical mass" much more quickly. But yeah, just play around with gas timings and see what feels best. Maybe try 2nd gas when your lair starts an 3rd and 4th when it finishes? I dunno, sorry I can't give a more concrete answer.Also, you need to get banelings as well against Protoss if you are opening muta/ling because zealots are too good of meatshields for stalkers and you need something to bust down that wall.For ZvZ, I wrote a little something here:

Saracen Profile Blog Joined December 2007 United States 5139 Posts #19 On September 21 2010 11:03 kzn wrote:

Would it be traitorous of you to help me vs Zerg :<

Indeed it would be! Unless you are Zerg yourself



Indeed it would be! Unless you are Zerg yourself On September 21 2010 11:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:

When do you start getting 2/2 upgrades? Be as detailed or as vague as you want lol, I've just been going with "whenever I can afford it."

As soon as 1/1 finishes? I try to start my upgrades as soon as possible. If I'm doing a dedicated muta build, I try to research +1 with my 100 gas immediately after my first batch of mutas. I also try to double evo as soon as lair finishes and upgrade melee and carapace. Against Protoss, if I see a chronoboosted forge, I'll put down an earlier evo and get carapace as soon as possible. As soon as 1/1 finishes?I try to start my upgrades as soon as possible. If I'm doing a dedicated muta build, I try to research +1 with my 100 gas immediately after my first batch of mutas. I also try to double evo as soon as lair finishes and upgrade melee and carapace. Against Protoss, if I see a chronoboosted forge, I'll put down an earlier evo and get carapace as soon as possible.

raybasto Profile Joined April 2010 United States 151 Posts #20 Against Toss, what is the best way to fend off 4 gate pressure and survive till the late game. It seems like if I open Hydras/Ling/Spines, they fast expand and switch to 2 gate Robo in which I am unable to defend long enough to get Ultra/Ling (Whether its because of lack of harass or over commiting to Hydra/Roach). If I open Muta/Ling, they keep the 4 gate pressure until my defenses finally break. SDRB - Mid/High Master Level Zerg || Follow me at Twitch.tv/RayBasto and @RaymondBasto

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