READER COMMENTS ON

"'We Shall Not be Moved!': A Response to L.A. Times' Oblique Attack on Occupy Wall Street..."

(31 Responses so far...)





COMMENT #1 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 10/30/2011 @ 4:17 pm PT...





Previous MSM efforts to either ignore what amounts to a genuine democratic uprising or to disparage Occupy Wall Street by falsely claiming the movement has no goal have obviously fallen flat. Is there a site that clearly lists the OWS goals? When anyone interviews people at OWS demonstrations are they generally clear of what their objectives are? Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I remember how you interviewed Tea Party protesters. I'd be curious how interviews with OWS protesters would compare. My hypothesis is that OWS demonstrators would generally come across as more intelligent and informed tha Tea Party protestters, but a lot of them would be vague on what exactly OWS goals are and convey contradictory views from each other. I say this because Canadian news interviews of protesters came across that way (doubtless, an impression that is largely the result of skewed editing).

COMMENT #2 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 10/30/2011 @ 5:34 pm PT...





UGH~ YES! Almost ALL the occupy websites have a "working list" of their demands posted as we collectively vet them. You can go to (almost) ANY occupation site and weigh in / vote for the "demands' you think are most important. This is the fiftymillionth time I've answered that question: Adam - we're vetting our demands by consensus among hundreds of thousands of people. It is a slow and arduous process, and considering we are facing a HYDRA-BEAST of problems that need to be addressed, woudn't you think some patience is warrented? We didn't get into this mess overnight, we're not going to get out of it in one month. For all the well-intentioned folks who are hammering away at us on blogs about this "demands" issue: We are a baby movement. It's only been one month and solutions, VETTED solutions, are not going to happen overnight. We have a lot of messages right now because we have a lot of problems to fix in a system this over run with corruption and neglected for so long. Please help us get the word out about the PROCESS, or better yet, get personally involved with it so you can contribute your own ideas to the movement. There is nothing "Vague" about this - unless, that is, you're getting your info from the MSM coverage you're watching, instead of the occupations who are broadcasting THEMSELVES, here: http://www.occupystream.com/

COMMENT #3 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 10/30/2011 @ 5:42 pm PT...





Adam (and all):

"Forum Post: PROPOSED LIST OF DEMANDS (please help edit/add so this can be submitted for consideration to those maintaining the official list)" http://occupywallst.org/...ease-help-editadd-so-th/

COMMENT #4 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 10/30/2011 @ 5:52 pm PT...





From Coup Media - here is the place to vote on a list of demands for CONGRESS: http://coupmedia.org/occ...et-official-demands-2009

COMMENT #5 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 10/30/2011 @ 5:57 pm PT...





Coup Media link above is not vetted officially by the OWS GA. The following IS a list of OWS GA demands posted early (9/22) offically: A Message From Occupied Wall Street (Day Five)

Published 2011-09-22 07:51:42 UTC by OccupyWallSt

at OccupyWallStreet.org This is the fifth communiqué from the 99 percent. We are occupying Wall Street. On September 21st, 2011, Troy Davis, an innocent man, was murdered by the state of Georgia. Troy Davis was one of the 99 percent. Ending capital punishment is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, four of our members were arrested on baseless charges. Ending police intimidation is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, the richest 400 Americans owned more than half of the country’s population. Ending wealth inequality is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, we determined that Yahoo lied about occupywallst.org being in spam filters. Ending corporate censorship is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, roughly eighty percent of Americans thought the country was on the wrong track. Ending the modern gilded age is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, roughly 15% of Americans approved of the job Congress was doing. Ending political corruption is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, roughly one sixth of Americans did not have work. Ending joblessness is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, roughly one sixth of America lived in poverty. Ending poverty is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, roughly fifty million Americans were without health insurance. Ending health-profiteering is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, America had military bases in around one hundred and thirty out of one hundred and sixty-five countries. Ending American imperialism is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, America was at war with the world. Ending war is our one demand. On September 21st, 2011, we stood in solidarity with Madrid, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Madison, Toronto, London, Athens, Sydney, Stuttgart, Tokyo, Milan, Amsterdam, Algiers, Tel Aviv, Portland and Chicago. Soon we will stand with Phoenix, Montreal, Cleveland and Atlanta. We’re still here. We are growing. We intend to stay until we see movements toward real change in our country and the world. You have fought all the wars. You have worked for all the bosses. You have wandered over all the countries. Have you harvested the fruits of your labors, the price of your victories? Does the past comfort you? Does the present smile on you? Does the future promise you anything? Have you found a piece of land where you can live like a human being and die like a human being? On these questions, on this argument, and on this theme, the struggle for existence, the people will speak. Join us. We speak as one. All of our decisions, from our choice to march on Wall Street to our decision to continue occupying Liberty Square, were decided through a consensus based process by the group, for the group. To see what Fox News thinks of the OWS demands: http://nation.foxnews.co...street-and-try-not-laugh

COMMENT #6 [Permalink]

... camusrebel said on 10/30/2011 @ 5:57 pm PT...





while i agree w/oneAdam-12 that it is very easy for the lamestream media to portray the protesters as not having an agreed upon wish list, i would have to point out that this is inherent in their leaderless makeup, and would say in the grand balancing act this has been a very good thing as we are just finding our wings. I also disagree that he, or anyone else, has heard any of the hundreds of thousands in every state and around the globe joining this movement declare any "contradictory views from each other". As I read it, most are out in the streets because they believe corporations have way to much power and influence. Has he heard some say they think corporations should have more power? Most feel those who deliberately caused the housing collapse to enrich themselves belong in prison. Has he heard any claim that they should get even fatter bonuses? Most feel the wars are illegal and are pissed that they are siphoning off trillions of dollars that could be better spent at home. Has he heard any claim the wars are just grand, we should stay in our occupied countries forever and increaes the defense budget. You get the idea. For some the main motivation is jobs, some it is Citizens United, some it is end the Fed. For some their last straw was torture, some it is the continuing illegal spying on American citizens. Some would say ending the phony war on terror and properly investigating what really happened on nine eleven is paramount.

None of these issues even come close to "contradicting" any of the others, and of course there are many more (getting rid of voting machines and going back to ALL paper ballots)

again....none contradict any others. That is just a stupid thing to say. We as a movement are growing daily and will not be stopped. There will come a time soon when a tidy bullet-pointed list of demands will become a good idea. That time is not now. When the time comes, say December/January-ish, I would put at the very top: OUTLAWING the Democrat and Republican parties! With that accomplished, all the rest will be as easy as pie. Imagine the House and Senate and all State houses populated with 100% new blood. OWS needs to tread very carefully. There have already been documented cases of infiltration by agent provaceturs. Many powerful interests are trying to discredit and defang this growing tsunami of people power as they are scaired shitless of our potential. As well they should be. To agree on a set of demands will require some rudimentary forms of leadership when the lack thereof has been it's strongest asset to date. Only a genuine outburst of our collective massive built up boiling rage over many related and NOT contradictory issues could have produced the groundswell phenomenom we are witnessing. Tampering with this unleashed fury should be done with the utmost care, openess and inclusion. "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us..."

COMMENT #7 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 10/30/2011 @ 6:05 pm PT...





For more on the concensus decision making process directly from OWS website: http://www.occupywallst....enacting-the-impossible/

COMMENT #8 [Permalink]

... camusrebel said on 10/30/2011 @ 6:21 pm PT...





full disclosure, I started writing my last comment when Adam's was the only other. Not suprised that JD beat me to the punch, and with a much better documented rebuttal. Jeannie, u never cease to inform and inspire. I should also note that I have yet to get my own ass down to one of the 2 occupations currently going on in DC, but plan to this week, hence some conflicting Pronoun usage; going from "their" to "we". Been crazy swamped busy teaching in a school that hired me 3 weeks into the school year and I am just now coming up for air. It is a small charter school with a predominantly poor, black student body. Just got the ok to take my Language Arts class on a field trip to both McPherson Square and Freedom Plaza. We are going to be doing interviews and writing about the experience. I will spend several evenings and weekends at both between now and when we go on Nov. 18.

COMMENT #9 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 10/30/2011 @ 6:40 pm PT...





Adam, I know that Jeannie Dean responded at length, but it has been said that sometimes a picture can provide a thousand words. Check out the toon Brad republished @ '#OccupyWallStreet' Toon of the Moment: 'Fuzzy Message' That so aptly summed up the corporate media's deceptive response, that I didn't feel it necessary to write further on the topic --- until LA Times came up with its oblique assault.

COMMENT #10 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 10/30/2011 @ 7:25 pm PT...





Camus - you're response dovetailed PERFECTLY with my long winded blah-blah! You caught that "contradictory message" line that I totally missed - thank U! And you fleshed out even more succinctly why we don't have one "cohesive message / branding" for everyone to neatly feed on. Actually, I think that's one of the smarter, finer things about this movement. And watching the MSM and the pundits trying to wrap their head around it has been great fun (and greatly frustrating)... Glad you brought up the hard documentation we have of POLICE AGENTS and PROVOCATEURS infiltrating us. Caught on video, even: http://www.youtube.com/w...opHH0&feature=colike (and thank you for the kind words! xoxox!)

COMMENT #11 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 10/31/2011 @ 1:42 am PT...





Adam, I know that Jeannie Dean responded at length, but it has been said that sometimes a picture can provide a thousand words. Check out the toon Brad republished @ '#OccupyWallStreet' Toon of the Moment: 'Fuzzy Message' That comic does actually clarify a lot for me, weirdly enough. OWS has a lot of formidable enemies --- I am not one of them. Enemies with vast resources. I do have concerns about big crowds. I live in Vancouver, Canada, where there were absurd and violent riots over Vancouver losing a hockey game, of all things, with fire and looting and all of that. OWS is obviously peaceful, but there are individuals who'd love to use it as an excuse to set cars on fire (maybe even paid in cash to do so in order to discredit the OWS?). OWS will need to document its positions with ten times more precision than the mainstream propaganda polluting the "news" from such mega-rags as New York Times that is often ill-researched but accepted. OWS will also need to resist authoritarianism and abusive behavior within its ranks. I'm afraid abusive behavior happens everywhere in even the most surprising of places, sometimes with little or no resistance due to the phenomenon of "bystander effect" where groups of people just do nothing when something ugly happens. Sorry if what I wrote irked you, but my intentions are good.

COMMENT #12 [Permalink]

... Dredd said on 10/31/2011 @ 4:32 am PT...





The OWS movement is based on two simple numbers:

1% and 99% When those two numbers become, say 50% and 50%, so many problems will go away with them. Demanding a change in two simple numbers takes care of a lot of business. The rest is dictum.

COMMENT #13 [Permalink]

... Howie Felch said on 10/31/2011 @ 6:50 am PT...





The way the narrative about aimlessness is continued is by continuing to deny the leaders of OWS any platform to articulate their demands and agenda. The Teabagger leaders were rushed onto all the mainstream outlets and allowed define themselves in thier own words. The ministry of propaganda will only allow the opponents of OWS on TV to define them…..negatively.

COMMENT #14 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 10/31/2011 @ 8:40 am PT...





Howie Felch @13 is spot-on in referring to the MSM, and not just Fox "News," as the "ministry of propaganda." Occupy Wall Street, as an anti-corporate, egalitarian movement, should neither expect nor rely upon in-depth coverage from a corporate-owned media. Like water running up against an earthen dam, communications by the movement must seek alternative means for reaching its destination—the Internet, Social Networks, alternative media and direct, two-way communications that the movement itself facilitates. One of the core goals of OWS should be to convince a wide swath of a citizenry, which already agrees with the core principles of the movement, to shift from the MSM to alternative media as a primary source of news. The principle of equitable distribution of information would be a corollary to the call by many to shift their funds from banking giants, like B of A, to local banks.

COMMENT #15 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 10/31/2011 @ 10:55 am PT...





Haven't gotten to read the links yet, JD (though I love those "one demands" you re-posted above!), and I've been meaning to post something on this somewhere. So I'll just do it here, for now, in case it might be useful to you or someone. My "one demand" suggestion for OWS: Every U.S. citizen 18 years of age or older who wishes to vote, gets to vote. Period. Those votes, on hand-marked paper ballots, will be counted publicly on election night, at the precinct, in front of all observers. I'd say that "one demand" is just about as non-partisan as one can get. And also, very important.

COMMENT #16 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 10/31/2011 @ 12:10 pm PT...





Ernest Canning wrote: One of the core goals of OWS should be to convince a wide swath of a citizenry, which already agrees with the core principles of the movement, to shift from the MSM to alternative media as a primary source of news. There is a widespread and justified distrust of the mainstream media. That said, standards of accountability should likewise be applied to alternative news sources. When alternative news outlets become bigger and have a significant following they wield power themselves and can abuse it. They can downright attack people's reputation and not hold themselves accountable for it. For example, RawStory arbitrarily banned me on the bases of false associations made by software they use (disqus) and I was slandered by email cc to several members of RawStory staff without any hint of apology apart from "inconveniencing" me. I was briefly banned, then when I questioned the honesty of the person trashing me like that, I was banned again (by Roxanne Cooper, RawStory's editor) for having the audacity to question someone's honesty after being slandered like that. When RawStory engages in that kind of abusive practice, it calls into question everything they say and do. In contrast, think BradBlog.com is consistently an excellent model and paradigm of how to practice investigative journalism and sharing and discussing important news, acting with consistent professionalism and treating all commenters with respect (even us little folk). Across, the board RawStory staff display bystander effect --- the phenomenon of not opposing a wrong or helping someone because no one else in the crowd is doing anything about it --- in just letting this attack against a reader occur. Everybody should be held accountable (yes, ven when you mostly agree with them). Election software is attack against democracy. In the same vein, online software can potentially threaten a person's reputation. Beware of the potential damage to your reputation and online via invasive and unreliable online software such as disqus and malware.

COMMENT #17 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 10/31/2011 @ 3:04 pm PT...





... Brad Friedman said on 10/31/2011 @ 10:55 am PT... My "one demand" suggestion for OWS: Every U.S. citizen 18 years of age or older who wishes to vote, gets to vote. Period. Those votes, on hand-marked paper ballots, will be counted publicly on election night, at the precinct, in front of all observers. I believe that this should be the number 1 demand of OWS. Voters can effectively hire or fire elected politicians, when votes are counted properly.

COMMENT #18 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 11/1/2011 @ 3:27 am PT...





Adam -

COMMENT #19 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 11/1/2011 @ 3:29 am PT...





oopsy! I was truncated! Just wanted to say Adam = no worries! I know you from years of bradblogging. I was not irked by YOU, per se, but by the hammering we're taking on this issue with so little understanding of our process. Mad love. jd

COMMENT #20 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 11/1/2011 @ 3:34 am PT...





Brad - couldn't agree more on your "one demand". You might be happy to know that there are many Bradblog readers out there on the front lines of their local occupations, trying to move that to the top of the list! Also - seeing "occupy elections" signs cropping up everywhere (not just mine here in LA) / and that REVERSING CITIZENS UNITED is getting closer to the top of the heap for consideration over all the other demands / solutions! WooOOOOT! Thank you Bradblog! Thinking we had (and ARE having) some impact, here...

COMMENT #21 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 11/1/2011 @ 8:19 pm PT...





This ought to be rectified... No results found in Google News for:

occupy wall street "hand counted". Only two results found in Google News for:

"election integrity" "occupy wall street" AND BOTH RESULTS FOR BRADBLOG!!! Occupy Wall Street first and foremost should be demanding election integrity, ie hand-counted paper ballots. This should be the NUMBER 1 point of Occupy Wall Street!!!

Why?

Answer:The bedrock of democracy is that citizens of voting age may vote and elect representatives of their choice and have their vote properly counted with hand-counted paper ballots.

COMMENT #22 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 11/1/2011 @ 11:01 pm PT...





The 2nd demand is to put an end to the New Jim Crow Laws that have been defecated all over the US.

COMMENT #23 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 11/1/2011 @ 11:03 pm PT...





I mean "should be" not is

COMMENT #24 [Permalink]

... Brad Friedman said on 11/1/2011 @ 11:30 pm PT...





Adam - See my comment #15 above. That should do it.

COMMENT #25 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 11/1/2011 @ 11:43 pm PT...





... Brad Friedman said Adam - See my comment #15 above. That should do it. Yes. I know. I was just finding unclear, wordy, roundabout, and wandering ways to say what you stated so clearly and succinctly to begin with. Being in Canada, I really need to focus locally on issues where I am, many of which do overlap with those the United States. I am happy to see Americans finally demonstrating to reclaim America. It is inspirational. OWS-inspired demonstrations are happening all over the world.

COMMENT #26 [Permalink]

... Jeannie Dean said on 11/2/2011 @ 6:34 am PT...





Hey, one of my regular occupyLA chatroom peeps linked BACK TO BRADBLOG tonight TO ME in the livestream! Sent me a link to the Koch Bros' piece you wrote, Brad! Regular reader of BB, and an 4wk occupy BFF chat room pal o' mine! Was SO juiced! WoooOOOT! Keep up the good work, Brad Tribe!

COMMENT #27 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 11/2/2011 @ 8:55 am PT...





Adam @11 wrote: I live in Vancouver, Canada, where there were absurd and violent riots over Vancouver losing a hockey game, of all things... I join you in abhorring the violence, Adam, but I can understand the angst. After all, Canada, the birthplace of hockey, has not won the Stanley Cup since 1993 when the Montreal Canadians defeated the L.A. Kings.

COMMENT #28 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 11/3/2011 @ 6:27 pm PT...





http://www.salon.com/201...land_protests/singleton/ This is what I was afraid of.

COMMENT #29 [Permalink]

... Adam said on 11/3/2011 @ 6:35 pm PT...





Ernest A. Canning... I join you in abhorring the violence, Adam, but I can understand the angst. After all, Canada, the birthplace of hockey, has not won the Stanley Cup since 1993 when the Montreal Canadians defeated the L.A. Kings. Call me crazy, but although I was disappointed by the Vancouver Canucks' loss, it never crossed my mind to smash store windows or set cars on fire. In fact, I felt Boston deserved to win since they played a superior game and had a virtuoso goalie.

(A lot of US hockey team players are from Canada, you know, lol)

COMMENT #30 [Permalink]

... Ernest A. Canning said on 11/3/2011 @ 6:59 pm PT...





Oh, I was in no way excusing the violence, Adam. Merely identifying with the angst. Vancouver hockey fans rioted after a loss. Here in Los Angeles, we had idiots rioting after the Lakers won an NBA championship. For some of those idiots, winning or losing is of no consequence. They're just looking at an excuse to pillage. I think you're seeing the same thing in Occupy Oakland. But it is far from the first time a non-violent movement has been marred by spontaneous violence. In India, the rioting got so bad that Gandhi nearly died from a hunger strike he had undertaken to protest the violence that had emerged withing his movement. Oh, don't I know about U.S. hockey players coming from Canada. A short time ago, Wayne Gretzky was having breakfast in Thousand Oaks, just a few tables from where I was sitting. Oddly, his son opted for football.

COMMENT #31 [Permalink]

... Jocelyn said on 11/4/2011 @ 4:25 pm PT...

