C: That is beautiful.

HW: It was a wild year. It was, but I’m thankful for it. I don’t wake up wanting to die anymore. I also take medicine now, and that’s another thing that I’ve not talked to many people about. I started that and it’s helped.

C: I take medication too. I started about two years ago I think. Even the act of getting help and getting medication — in my opinion, that heals you, too. That’s action.

HW: Yes! And we walk around so disconnected from our bodies. Sometimes they’re trying to tell us something and we don’t even notice. My skin would break out like crazy when I was in a bad emotional place.

I’m interested to know if you had signs of any sort of — I won’t call it mental illness even, but unrest — during the time after your parents’ divorce. Do you look back at it now and realize anything like that?

C: Yeah I understand what you’re saying. Yes. I think I’m still unpacking that stuff. Looking back I feel like I — me and my dad had some issues when I was in high school and I realize now some of what led to the clash. When you’re that age, you’re shopping for your personality, you know? Just to see who you want to be. The more that I tried to put on traits and things that I thought Cariann was or who I wanted her to be, that’s when me and my parents started having growing pains. Looking back and realizing that I’m not an extension of my parents, and it’s totally of my own volition who I am and who I want to be; it’s not my fault if that looks different than what they might have had in mind for me. In college therapy, my therapist said to me that it’s okay to grieve a certain idea of who you wanted yourself to be or your parents to be. It’s okay to grieve having parents that are divorced because you’ll never get to sit at a dinner table with both of them. She kind of reminded me that my parents aren’t an extension of who I want them to be either. I don’t know; it’s just a lot. No one is perfect.

HW: That’s so true, man. I have friends that don’t want to have kids because they don’t want to fuck something up. Or this world is so dark they don’t want to bring something into that. I don’t know; I think I would want to have kids. I feel that in a more genuine way, now that I just take care of myself. It must be hard. I have total compassion and empathy for my parents, you know?

C: Yeah, I agree. I have a lot of respect.

HW: But some of that kept me from being angry or upset and actually working through stuff. It kept me from having feelings about it. It is important, like you said, to realize at some point that I can’t project what I want them to be onto them. They have some other crazy story, probably still some things we will never know. I just think that you have to figure out, when grieving that, how to hold space for if you need to be angry, sad, and then also find whatever you need to keep that connection with them too. You know?

C: Yeah.

HW: For some people, I realize that would be really unhealthy for them and that’s not an option, and that’s valid.

C: I actually just finished this book yesterday called “Faithful” by Alice Hoffman. Do you know her? She wrote “Practical Magic” too.

HW: Oh, yeah! I never knew the author’s name.

C: She’s amazing. I had never read anything else of hers aside from “Practical Magic.” I haven’t devoured a piece of fiction like that in a long time — I got super burned out in school — but it’s so good. A lot of the underlying themes are regret, self-redemption, and forgiving yourself.

HW: I’ve been so deep into self-help for the last…since everything. Being into those types of things, I’m missing something like this. A novel, you know? Something to put my mind at rest.

C: Take that one! Read it. I don’t know if you’ll get anything out of it because I think it just hit me when I needed to hear it, but yeah.

HW: Thank you! When I first got my divorce, a friend recommended “Women Who Run With Wolves” to me. Have you heard of it?

C: No I haven’t.

HW: I’ll trade you. It really helped me. It’s like a sneaky self-help. It’s folklore and ancient fables. Stories that women would tell each other throughout history. The first story is called “Bluebeard” and it helped me so much. It helped me realize why I stayed in a relationship that was so unhealthy for me, and when I realized it, I couldn’t look away. I couldn’t turn back. I had to leave.

C: Have you ever read “Tiny Beautiful Things”?

HW: No I haven’t. You’re like the second person that’s asked me that lately. I need to write it down.

C: It’s incredible. It’s Cheryl Strayed’s anonymous advice column compiled into a book. Yeah you can take my copy of this too.

HW: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. I’m so excited! I’m also buying this tea, probably today. [Reading the book cover] “Let yourself be gutted.” Wow. I love that. This is how I felt for so long.

C: I think about one entry in particular so much. It’s from the entry “Tiny Beautiful Things,” which is the title of the book. The anonymous person writing to her says:

“Dear Sugar, I read your column religiously. I’m 22. From what I can tell by your writing, you’re in your early forties. My question for you is short and sweet. What would you tell your twenty-something self if you could talk to her now?”

Part of the advice that Cheryl gives here is fucking amazing. She writes:

“One hot afternoon in an era where you’ve gotten yourself ridiculously tangled up in heroine, you will be riding the bus and thinking about what a worthless piece of crap you are when a little girl will get on the bus, holding two strings of two purple balloons. She offers you one of the balloons, but you won’t take it because you think you no longer have the right to such tiny beautiful things. You’re wrong. You do.”

HW: Oh my god. That’s insane. This book is going to wreck my life.

C: That was actually one of the questions I was going to ask you today — kind of in that realm, anyway. What would you say to someone who is nervous to share their story? What would you say to the apprehensive Midnight Woman contributor?

HW: I mean…the only way that we move from one point in life to another is by action. I think action can be physical movement or can be recurring thoughts, patterns, dreams. My weapon of choice is always words. It’s what has simultaneously shielded me and also whacked down weeds for me as I’ve tried to get through life. If you can share your story just enough to find that spark of action where you’re telling someone what you’ve gone through, or you’re looking at your words in front of you — when you can look at them and know that they’re going to meet someone on the other side — if you want to get anywhere past it, the only thing to do is move. Words might look small and black and white on a page but, to me, that’s one of the biggest things you can do. Some of the most powerful movements in my life have just been sentences, sometimes not even to melody. Even though I’m in a band and all this stuff with Paramore, sometimes it’s not the stuff I write in songs, it’s what I’m telling a friend late at night or writing in a journal that no one will ever see. Even though sometimes I’m like, “I’m going to die one day and someone might find this shit; it better be good.” [Laughs]

C: Yes! Exactly.

HW: But I think movement and connection are how we survive. I think if you want to live through something, you have to move through it, speak through it, connect through it. It’s worth it, you know? I was really afraid — I kept everyone from talking about my divorce. And I would talk around depression until I was blue in the face. But in the last six months, since I’ve really owned this stuff…and I mean, we talk about a lot on the album, but again, the words that are more personal. The things that have come out since we’ve been on the road — those are the things that have lifted me up and carried me into this next space. The connections I’ve made and the friendships I’ve made, with other women especially, in this time period has been so beautiful for me. My whole life I’ve just been surrounded by guys, and they’re wonderful people, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think I would be alive if I hadn’t started talking and writing things down — expressing myself.

We use it for my hair dye company; “Expression is survival” is on our t-shirts. It’s not just like a catchy thing that I say; it has kept me alive. The motive is key. Is the desire to live bigger than the fear? For me, it wasn’t for a long time. Somehow I pushed through that. I think writing was the biggest part of all of it.

I’m excited for what you’re doing, and for people getting over that fear, because I think they will discover that whatever is underneath that fear is a desire to move and live.

C: Yeah, and connect with other people.

HW: I don’t really get the point of being on the Earth if I’m not connecting with people. The band didn’t do a lot of interviews recently. I’m doing this today, and this isn’t work for me, this isn’t like, “Oh, I have an album and I can’t wait for you to plug that at the end of this.” You know? I did a zine too that’s a female-run thing from the UK. Those are the coolest things for me, as a person, who also gets to do this and be an artist. I’m so thankful that I get to meet people and talk. Like me and you have a lot of things in common, and I was just buying coffee from you months ago. It’s crazy! I’m excited for what you’re doing because I think you’re going to show a lot of people their desire to be known and to know other people. That’s so cool. It’s the only point [of life]! I don’t get any other point. You know?

C: Yeah. I so agree. Thank you. That means so much to me.

HW: Also I am so sorry if you have to transcribe this. I am so long-winded.

C: Don’t even worry about it. I want Midnight Woman to be my end game. This is what I want my life to be. Just to have people like you and Sharon who have your own followings — the fact that you believe in what I’m doing… it makes me think that I actually can do it.

HW: Oh, of course you can do it.

C: It’s just been so encouraging. Thank you, I mean it.

HW: Yeah, of course. I love the name by the way.

C: Thanks so much.

HW: It’s really beautiful.

C: Thank you so much for talking to me!

HW: Of course. This was so nice. What a cozy afternoon to be inside when the weather is shit. We can be in here talking about real stuff.