Subject: PSA to the new people about community and language

noche Posted: 2013/06/11 17:10

Hey everyone – I know we recently got a lot of new people what with the prepping for the open beta and now with the beta open the server is flooded with new people and it’s great! Thanks for coming and playing with us. I just have something to mention since we do have so many new people: Please be polite – we do have girls, gay people, queer people, trans people, people of every color, shape and size playing the game. Don’t make disparaging remarks about another group of people (or even your own). You don’t know who the other person(s) watching are. It alienates new people trying to get into the community that aren’t typically seen openly in other gaming groups. It also makes those of us who have been here a while not quite as excited to have so many new faces. I know for me (yes, I am mostly a girl) I am more hesitant to play new people when my friends aren’t on the game or in ts because frankly I don’t want to deal with people making comments about girls, the two larger characters, etc. It’s not pleasant and I am nearly at the point where I don’t want to play new people that I haven’t seen play my friends on stream. I love to mentor but I am not going to put myself through the awkwardness of telling someone that just made a disparaging comment about women that I am one. Or that I am not skinny, or that I am queer, or or or. It’s just not fun and has been known to ruin my evening enough that I get off the game. Between my two accounts I have over 1000 games – clearly I really like spyparty. This isn’t just about me though. I want to see more non male people playing spyparty. Right now Gun0m and I are the only two regular females that are active (as far as I know). We have had a lot of other females go through the game and bump right back out and I can’t help but think that a part of that is the attitude about anyone that isn’t male that some people have. I know that out girls are a largely unseen part of gaming but there are a lot of them, many just hide behind their screen name because to come out openly as a female is to invite ridicule quite often. It’s not as bad in spyparty as in other games but that doesn’t mean that the fear isn’t there still. Seeing someone make a comment about ‘female logic’ or calling bertha ‘brown cow’ is a real turn off. While we don’t have as much open hostility it makes new people that don’t know that turn away because this is just like every other game. I know how great of a community we have – I have made some great friends through this game and I want more people involved. I also want it to be an inclusive community, not one that makes people like me feel bad and want to go play something else (that doesn’t involve other people). Just have fun – that doesn’t have to involve putting other people, or groups of people down.

kcmmmmm Posted: 2013/06/11 21:59

I don’t intend to, but if I ever cross a line, please let me know, and I’ll do my best to correct that behavior in the future. _________________

KCMmmmm

icarox Posted: 2013/06/12 03:19

I agree completely, and I have nearly zero tolerance for that kind of behaviour. When some jackasses chat on Drawns stream, they always ask about the graphics and every single time there’s been comments of how ugly the ladies are and etc. If you expect me to be your friend; please use a language that reflects the manner of somebody who is respectful to the highest amount of people possible. If you can’t do that, fake it ’til you make it.

emotedllama Posted: 2013/06/12 12:25

I, uh, don’t have anything to add other than that I completely agree with the OP. Let’s not be discriminatory.

checker Posted: 2013/06/12 19:57

Stickied for truth. It’s very important to me that SpyParty be the most diverse game ever, both in the game, in the sense that there is going to be a more diverse set of playable characters in this game than any other game in history, and that the community is diverse and supportive. I love the idea of having an extremely hardcore player-skill competitive game, but with an awesome and helpful community. I’m an optimist, and I think it’s possible. So, please don’t be afraid to remind somebody to be cool about words or phrases. It’s a very big adjustment from “normal gaming communities”, so new people will need to be cut some slack. Some people don’t know that saying “fat chick” is offensive to some people, and just giving them a heads up is enough to make them think about it and adjust their behavior. It’s easy to describe the characters using their clothes instead of their body shape, “orange dress” FTW, for example. If you don’t feel comfortable talking to somebody, just PM me with a timestamp of when you heard something alienating and let me know, and I can check the logs and email the person and explain how we do it around here. If you do bring something up in a kind and empathetic way and the person is not receptive, also PM me. If somebody gets really out of hand and doesn’t respond to warnings, I will ban them from online play, of course. Thanks to everybody who helps the community stay awesome, helpful, kind, and mature, Chris PS. I’m going to post this thread on the blog, assuming everybody is okay with that. It’s important to be clear and public about this stuff, and it’s way more powerful when it’s the community saying it first, not just me. Also, kate is back with a vengeance lately, and I believe there are other women playing who don’t announce that fact.

noche Posted: 2013/06/13 01:41

Checker you’re awesome. Go ahead and post away btw, I am chill. on a side note – I don’t think I have met kate. hmmm. when is she on?

zerotka Posted: 2013/06/13 11:04

I know of at least 4, not including noche and kate. Our community is probably more diverse than we know. good post. +3 _________________

ZeroTKA

kcmmmmm Posted: 2013/06/13 16:04

This is a bit off-topic, but I wish to add that the SpyParty community is ecstatic to have new members join and contribute to the forum. Whether you’re here asking questions, posting bugs, offering opinions (positive or negative), making suggestions, or just chatting casually, we’re happy to have you join in. Worry less about posting everything in the exactly perfect place or about reposts, and more about the stuff in the OP; be respectful to others in the community, and we’ll do the same for you. Welcome to the SpyParty beta, and – perhaps more importantly – welcome to the SpyParty beta community!

cornergraf Posted: 2013/06/14 05:45

I don’t try intentionally to be rude in the chat, and I try to stay nice and polite, but I think some of you are taking this to the extreme a bit too much. Remarks like “female logic” are absolutely wrong to use, I agree, but some of the other examples given here are not so bad. If someone is fat, they are fat, and I will call them fat. “Fat chick” is not any more offensive than “fat guy”. This is not to offend fat people, but it’s just how it is. If you have a problem with being fat, then do something about it, don’t tell me to not offend you. Or just ignore me if you think I am stupid – “sticks and stones…” and all that. Just to reiterate – I do not mean to offend anyone but political correctness can be taken too far. And some (insecure?) people have a tendency to take offense at the slightest word, even if it was not meant to offend. To those people I would like to suggest to relax a bit.

bl00dw0lf Posted: 2013/06/14 12:37

I don’t actually think I can change your mind on the Political Correctness front, but hopefully you can see reason just for being considerate. If one or more users don’t want you using those terms for two characters out of 20, and have provided alternatives, does not doing it really inconvenience you that much? You may not see yourself as using those words in a harmful way, but there are certainly people out there who will. Detecting intent through purely text is impossible, there’s all kinds of hilarious and sad examples on the Internet of people failing to catch the use of sarcasm. Body issues are a serious thing, and using words like “fat” when there is no reason to may be jarring (Maybe, I’m making this up as I go). Telling all people who are unhappy with their body image to “do something about it” is unhelpful. For all you know they are doing everything they can to better themselves. Obesity has a genetic factor, so not everybody has to put equal amounts of work into maintaining a healthy weight. It may be easier for you to stay healthy with your genes and age than others. Lastly, we are all trying our best to foster an amazing community. We don’t want anyone to get turned off of the game because of things that the community does. If you want to grow the community like most of us do, being respectful of all people is a part of it. I would much rather see a mature respectful community than a community of younger teenagers who think using slurs or calling people fat is funny (To be clear, I do not think you are a part of this second group). Accepting everybody, even those you personally think take political correctness too far, will keep the community awesome. Calling the OP names does not benefit the community.

checker Posted: 2013/06/14 13:13

Yeah, I want to be clear here: this is not reddit, or the internet at large. This is my house, and I am incredibly delighted and incredibly almost-indescribably grateful that everybody decided to come over for this party I’m having, and people do seem to be having a genuinely great time, which basically brings me almost to tears of joy on a daily basis. But, everyone needs to be polite to each other. There aren’t going to be debates about free speech and truth and whether some words should or should not be hurtful and how somebody else should feel in one situation or another, that can happen elsewhere (almost everywhere) on the internet. No single word or phrase is important enough to keep using on principal or out of habit if it hurts somebody else’s feelings, no matter how truthful and purely descriptive and well intentioned you feel it is. If you are the kind of person who would call someone with a higher than average BMI “fat” when they’re standing right there in real life, especially after they ask you not to, or act awkwardly when you say it, then you need to keep that to yourself around here, both in the forums, and in the lobby. How you talk when you’re not at my place is none of my business, of course, but if you’re over here, then these are the rules. This is not aimed at cornergraf specifically, but that post was a good opportunity for me to write this post. I totally empathize that “political correctness” can be taken to extremes and can sometimes seem absurd or like a minefield, especially when there was absolutely no intent to hurt anybody, but as bl00dw0lf says, here it’s not so much about political correctness as it is about just being nice to a bunch of people who share the same interests around this video game I’m trying to make awesome with all of your help. So, if somebody asks you nicely to not use a word so casually, I hope everyone will agree that the right thing to do is to be a kind human being and say, “oh, yeah, sorry, didn’t realize, no problem” and then just continue on with talking about the fun stuff you were talking about before, and the wrong thing is to get upset and start some discussion about how that other person shouldn’t feel some way. Language is rich, and there are plenty of words to describe something or someone without needing to use ones that may hurt somebody’s feelings. It’s a two-way street, of course. Often people aren’t used to being sensitive in this way, don’t know which words might hurt somebody, make mistakes even if they do know (I am guilty of this too!), and need reminders. I don’t think over-sensitivity is anywhere near as big a problem as insensitivity in communities, but it can be a problem, so people who are sensitive to this stuff need to be empathetic as well. I have never seen anybody here intending to hurt somebody else’s feelings, and intent matters a lot in my book. But, it takes a lot of social courage to ask somebody politely to stop using a word, so if you’re asked, please understand that. The vast majority of people in the world are considerate and mean well, and if given the chance to communicate and have an identity they will behave like good people you would invite over in real life. I believe that completely, and this community is designed around that premise. No, that does not mean you’re all invited to my real house, my house is tiny, you’d never fit. Thanks for understanding, and <3, Chris

cornergraf Posted: 2013/06/14 13:29

Edit: trying to make it short and sweet, I will not post any further on this issue as I think everything worth saying has been said. Checker, your post is spot on I think. I am/will be doing my best to be polite, but I am not going to second guess every word and every statement as to whether it might possibly ever offend someone else. I would hate for players to turn away from this community because they feel like they constantly have to walk on egg shells. That being said, if someone tells me in a reasonable tone that they object to my statement, I will of course apologize and try to avoid making similar statements again. bl00dw0lf wrote:

Calling the OP names does not benefit the community. That was in no way my intent, if it came across as such I apologize! Last edited by cornergraf on 2013/06/14 14:55, edited 1 time in total.

checker Posted: 2013/06/14 13:38