View Full Version : Demo MP3 of my Brass Library

Thomas_J I have written a little demo piece to show off my brass library (again http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The mp3 is about 4 or 5mb big. I\'ve used the following samples:



Trumpets, bones and horns are from my library.

The strings are kirk hunter.

The choir is peter siedlaczek\'s classical choir.

Percussion is from my library except xylophone which is from AO.

Woodwinds from peter siedlaczek\'s.



Hope you like it. Sorry for the noise on the recording but I was routing through the amplifier and back into another soundcard. Everything is analog. Still it should give an impression of what my brass sounds like, and what I think everyone here wants http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif So future developers, take notice. Oh and sorry for the sluggish string part and the abrupt ending. It\'s merely meant to demonstrate my samples.



Thanks for listening,

Thomas

http://jazz2k_1.tripod.com/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3 (\"http://jazz2k_1.tripod.com/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3\")



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-06-2001).]

Marc Floessel ..





....





.......



How does breathing work again? Somebody tell me, quick...

Thomas_J Hahaha Marc! I guess that\'s a good compliment http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif (thanks) I\'d like to know if these are the type of brass samples you were looking for? What did you like and what did you not like? (sample-wise) (btw, I\'m on efnet now if you\'d like to chat)



Thanks again,

Thomas

Blob Hi Thomas,



Any chance of a working link? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif



Chhers http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas_J Thanks to my friend Marc for sharing his server space. The mp3 is up on http://www.booyaya.de/enyak/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3 (\"http://www.booyaya.de/enyak/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3\")



There\'s also a horn example that I posted earlier at: http://www.booyaya.de/enyak/hornex!!s.mp3 (\"http://www.booyaya.de/enyak/hornex!!s.mp3\")



These links should be much faster than the first one.



Thomas

Simon Ravn Thomas this is awesome. I am also impressed that you can get this out of Kirk Hunter - you have talent for sure!!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

astrt4 Yes, that\'s what we want. I think this is the second best job I\'ve heard, right after the James Newton Howard Dinosaur track. Simply awesome. This is one of those where you question whether you are hearing the real thing or not.

Z6 Wow! Magnificent. Big. Bold. Powerful. Masterful. I really love this. If Speilberg gets to hear this then Williams might be out of a job.

Francis Belardino Here\'s my take on this Mp3 sample.



Wow! You ARE Mr. Hollywood! The brass is awesome but what\'s more impressive is the writing. Dark, haunting and very moving.



Back to the Brass. Do I make the check out to Mr. Thomas, or?



By the way, how much for the snares?



Top Notch all around!



PS. The audio seems very wide/depth. Is that a plugin or just smart panning?



------------------

Francis Belardino

Sound Designer

Audio Visions, LTD.

Wilmington, DE.

www.audiovisionsonline.com

Francis Belardino Listen to it again. I forgot to mention that

the music is very, very inspiring.

Blob It\'s not very often i grin inanely at

a piece of music http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif



Thanks for sharing this, kinda\' makes me realise i should be working with the tools i have rather than reaching for the latest new thing..

Jamieh Two questions:



1) How the heck did you get the brass to sound that good?



2) Why aren\'t you selling the library for big bucks? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



That is easily the most convincing sampled piece I have ever heard. Now, I am currently at work listening on crappy speakers, but I will listen again at home on my good ones. I am totally blown away here.



BTW, nice horn lick from Hook. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif





[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-06-2001).]

apessino Well, I am just as amazed as everyone else here. I think it is actually MUCH better than the James Newton Howard piece! Besides, I find the writing much richer and more challenging, and a lot more dynamic and complex.



There are a few moments in the piece that \"give it away\" a bit, but the majority of it (especially the second part) is nearly impossible to tell from a live performance. It\'s damn fantastic, that\'s what it is.



Regardless of the quality of your samples, which is amazing by the way, how ON EARTH do you get the instruments to blend so perfectly, and yet retain so much clarity?



Your piece sounds better with noise and excess reverberation than anything I\'ve ever done pristinely.



I am wholly depressed.. <sigh>



A-

tomhartman [QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas_J:

[B]I have written a little demo piece to show off my brass library (again http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The mp3 is about 4 or 5mb big. I\'ve used the following samples:



Trumpets, bones and horns are from my library.

The strings are kirk hunter.

The choir is peter siedlaczek\'s classical choir.

Percussion is from my library except xylophone which is from AO.

Woodwinds from peter siedlaczek\'s.



Did you remove it? I clicked on the link but got \"The file is not there\" or something....

Damon Very nice composition there Thomas! The brass sounds VERY good. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

astrt4 >I think it is actually MUCH better than the >James Newton Howard piece! Besides, I find >the writing much richer and more >challenging, and a lot more dynamic and >complex.



I agree that the piece is more interesting. I was only speaking in regards to the realism. This is the second most realistic piece I\'ve heard so far.

Marc Floessel It seems we all agree on the fantastic nature of Thomas\' Brass (and Percussion for that matter!) Samples. I don\'t know how the rest of you feels, but for me this marks more than just \"Oh, that\'s definitely a notch up compared to my old samples\" - no, it\'s not even comparable to any stock library I\'ve ever heard - completely different ball park range! Many parts sound as good as real and totally like a big budget Hollywood blockbuster score.



So why after all this years did it finally take a devoted amateur to record the brass library that all of us wish to own so badly?



I think in his past posts Thomas has gone more than out of his way in explaining exactly how a professional brass library should be recorded to achieve this sound. He could have kept this valuable knowledge to himself, but instead he opted to not only share detailed advice but now even supplies us with preview MP3s of how such a library might sound. He literally provided future sample makers with the rife fruits only waiting to be picked and made into a fortune, the maker himself to be hailed by consumers worldwide. I doubt many composers in such a position would do this.



I don\'t care if the production of such a library might be twice as expensive (which it probably isn\'t) - if it\'s done right I am willing to throw heaps and heaps of money at anyone who can deliver this quality. You just have to get it right.

tomhartman <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

I have written a little demo piece to show off my brass library (again http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The mp3 is about 4 or 5mb big. I\'ve used the following samples:



Trumpets, bones and horns are from my library.

The strings are kirk hunter.

The choir is peter siedlaczek\'s classical choir.

Percussion is from my library except xylophone which is from AO.

Woodwinds from peter siedlaczek\'s.



Hope you like it. http://jazz2k_1.tripod.com/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3 (\"http://jazz2k_1.tripod.com/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3\")



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-06-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Wonderful writing. Loved it all.



Here\'s how I heard the different sounds:





STRINGS:

Another example of how these and all samples seem to change usefulness sometimes within the same work.



At the beginning, I felt like the strings sounded average. In the middle, especially during the fast stuff, they were very impressive. In the adagio section, they also sounded very good.



BRASS:

The brass, likewise, sounded great overall...some of the high stuff sounded a little suspect once in awhile..but most of it was better than what I\'ve heard elsewhere. The low brass sounded great, and overall, if you had had access to a major reverb unit the whole thing would have sounded even better.



VOICES:



I was not overly taken with the voices, though the part was nice.



A really wonderful work. Can I have your French horns now? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Jamieh Ok, I\'m now listening on my good speakers. I can actually hear some slight giveaways that it is sampled now, which I coudn\'t at work. However it is still almost totally convincing.



I think it is the high trumpet and the horns that really make this piece sound real. Plus there is some really excellent string writing in there. There are a few parts where the trumpet is really pushing its upper range, but it still sounds real.



It does have a distant \"listening in a large concert hall\" sound instead of the up-front in your face sound that a lot of movie scores have. But that may just be the mixing.



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-07-2001).]

RICARDO BOTTICELLI awsome!!!yes dude !!you got what we need!!

fantastic sound.fantastic music.

licke bruckner piece is finished?

well if you don\'t want sell your samples how about a donation ?!!!!!

just kidding!!!(telling the truth i\'m serious)

think about it.

congratulations!!!!

ps:what samples from kirk hunter have you done(used) in this piece?

KingIdiot hmmm I seem to remember saying on this forum to Thonas_J that his stuff was pretty amazing... I\'m not gonna do it again....





ok fine....amazing :P



I still have the brassex.mp3 saved fromt he last time you posted so I could go back to it and be humbled by it when I actually do studd I like :P



I also have that old French horn sample that is the sound I WANT in my samples :P



I hope that I may have some personal/custom samples of worth to trade with you at some point



------------------

Really...I am an Idiot

Thomas_J Wow! I\'m amazed at all the positive feedback! These are quite humbling words http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I don\'t know where I should start. The demo was put together to show off my samples, and hopefully inspire sample developers to pick up a few ideas before they go to sample their next brass library!



Francis: Thanks but the library is currently not for sale. There are no tricks with the audio. I\'m using typical orchestral panning most of the time, with a cheapish reverb (a zoom 1202 actually hehe)



Blob said: \"Thanks for sharing this, kinda\' makes me realise i should be working with the tools i have rather than reaching for the latest new thing..\" .. that\'s what I\'ve been trying to say to people on this board for like a century now http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Jamieh:



1) The brass sound is a result of distant micing and some careful programming.

I\'m especially fond of the horns myself http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



2) I\'m not selling because I feel like I\'m sitting on a valuable set of samples that I\'d like to have exclusive rights to use http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



The \"distant listening in a large concert hall\" sound is probably due to my excess hall reverb http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Apessino: I guess the beauty of my brass samples is that they don\'t need to be processed in any way. They just sit tight in the mix no matter what I do. With other libraries I found myself experimenting a lot with EQ and stereo imaging etc. These samples just work, straight out of the box so to speak. As for the parts that give it away, please tell. I\'ll have a look and see if I can do better.



Tomhartman: Thank you. One will have to cope with what one has, and to me my biggest challenge is string writing. Simply because I don\'t have proper samples. Kirk Hunter goes a long way, but the beginning (that was just written in a few mins to have an intro) sounds poor. I agree. I\'m going to rewrite that with tremolo violins that crossfade into vibrato. no tremolo. It should help.



RICARDO BOTTICELLI: Thanks a lot! *blush* Nothing like real appreciation of ones work! Sorry but the bruckner piece is pretty much history at the moment. I might take up on it some day though.



Samples from kirk hunter includes the ESP strings, slides, hrdvelsustain and a few others I can\'t remember.



Thanks everyone. Now lets see if the sample developers can take a few hints. People want loud screaming brass at fff.



Thomas

Thomas_J Btw, if someone has tried to email before I changed the personal info, they will not get a reply. My current email is jazz2000k@hotmail.com



Thomas

SCARBEE Hi Thomas,



Everytime I try to download the mp3 at

http://jazz2k_1.tripod.com/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3 (\"http://jazz2k_1.tripod.com/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3\")



I get this message:



\"Sorry, but the page or file that you\'re looking for is not here.\"



Could you please check the URL?



cheers



Thomas





------------------

Visit www.scarbee.com (\"http://www.scarbee.com\") and check out the demoes from The Scarbee Bass Libraries:)

Simon Ravn I know I should be stunned by the brass, which I also am (although the fff frenchhorns sounds a bit too metallic or my liking), but I am even more impressed by the strings. I would never have imagined that Kirk Hunter could sound this good, especially the fast stuff. If theres one criticism it must be the reverb - I think it has way too much of it - sometimes it drowns totally in the verb, which is not what I generally hear in real orchestral recordings - often I am puzzled by how LITTLE reverb a big hall really generates.

Thomas_J SCARBEE, did you try the other link?

http://www.booyaya.de/enyak/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3 (\"http://www.booyaya.de/enyak/Jazz2k_-_Unexplored_Territory.mp3\")



That one should work.



Oh yeah your bass library sounds bloody good http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Best sampled bass out there. Seems leagues over any other bass library. Ever had a go at brass? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Thomas



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-07-2001).]

Thomas_J Simon, yes the reverb is horrible, and it is a bit too wet. I like her when she\'s wet http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I completely disagree regarding your view on the horns though. Metallic? Try writing those horn parts with miroslav, AO or QLB... Of all the sounds I have, I like those the best. It\'s a matter of taste I guess. Thanks for your comments.



Thomas



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-07-2001).]

SCARBEE Fantastic! Absolutely stunning... is this a new joke? It sounds - not only convincing - but the composition itself is brilliant. I like it all; the strings, brass - whatever.



If this is your own work - the future belongs to you, my friend!



Thanks for your compliments on my bass libraries - comming from an artist like you, who is also a \"mean\" reviewer of libraries I will take your words for the double.



respect



Thomas

Simon Ravn Thomas, I know it wouldnt be able to be as powerful with any other library, I just think I´d EQ away some of the highend on yours fff frenchies - I think they´re a bit on the bright side. All the rest of the brass is right on.

IOComposer Nice one, Thomas.

There\'s something about the repetitive attack on the trumpets that sounds annoyingly synthy to me. Other than that, it\'s great.

wanna trade? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

-J

Thomas_J Simon: Fair enough! We all have different opinions on what sounds good and not.



SCARBEE: Thanks for that feedback man. I guess I\'ve been somewhat harsh on several developers, but now is their perfect chance to return lousy feedback on me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



IOcomposer: hehe can\'t win them all http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Thanks anyway. It\'d be nice to hear your trumpets over the mix. In what part does the \"annoying\" repetition in trumpets appear?

(give me exact playing time (fx. 2:45?)



Thomas

IOComposer The top lines of all of the melodic statements. They sound as though they have a filtered attack on them. Since they all have it, it sounds like you\'re just playing keys. Perhaps if you varied them up with straight hard attacks, you\'d be able to fool me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

oh yeah...don\'t be fooled by what people are saying here...your reverb sucks! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

-J

Dis Amazing library. It was clear allready as you posted Brasslibex!!s some time ago. But I absloutely don\'t understand one thing - How could you make such great sounding hyper FAST string passages with Kirk Hunter??? All patches - 24VN ESP, TME, NV, 10 CES - are slow even with attack paramter set to zero. However fast patches 24VN HRD or HRDSUS sound a bit harsh with too much recognizeably \"dirty\" sound of attacks. 10 CES HRDSUS isn\'t much realistic sounding patch.

If you edit waveforms of for example 24 VN TME and cut some short pieces from beggining to speed up attacks, it\'s possible, but then it\'s necessary to add some attack parameter at least to 0.1 ms for hiding unpleasant sound of cutted attacks of waves - so the result could be \"faster\" violins sound but not as fast as violins in your example. That\'s mystery for me. Of course you can cut waves for fast attack and left attack parameter set to zero or 0.02ms, then it sounds fast, but absolutly unnatural with terrible hiss in every attack. But the ultra-fast violins passages in your music example sound absolutely natural, as if it was not edited or cut. Fast violins section in your music sounds like if it has sound of 24 VN TME patch, but attack speed of 24 HRDSUS patch. How did you manage it? Or is it thoug 24 VN HRD patch?

Still more mysterious seems to me your fast passages of low strings. There are only few patches on Kirk Hunter like 10 CES HRD(sus), Basses etc., but they sound synthy. In your exmaple a short piece of time there are some greatly realistic and natural sounding fast low strings (propably cellos) heard, but I really have absolutely no idea how this comes together with any of KH cellos patch... No editing of 10 CES, or HRDSUS patches seems to achieve sound similar to the sound from your piece.. Was it really KH cellos? And which patch?? Or haven\'t you some new 2.0 version of KH with some updated patches? (if it exists) :-))

Maybe I\'m missing something, but I really have not idea how could you make such super-fast thoug realistic and natural sounding string passages from Kirk Hunter. Could you please solve the mystery? :-)

Thomas_J Sorry dis I forgot to mention (I had at most over 50 midi channels and I\'m sorry I forgot). I wasn\'t using kirk hunter on those fast passages. Those are from the prosonus library. Hope this clears up some things.



Thomas



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-07-2001).]

tomhartman <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:

They don\'t.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



This is getting like a Monty Python exchange....\"Yes they do!\" \"No they don\'t\"

.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Thomas_J Hehe Simon I was playing in Cminor and the horn in hook is in Bb minor. Actually when I play it in Bb minor on my keyboard here it sounds EXACTLY like the one in 05- hook-napped. I\'ll upload an example if I care to bother.



As for the horns in 01- Prologue, they are not playing fff. merely f-ff.



Thomas

Adrian H Congrats on a fine job with the brass samples.



Like I have said in a previous thread, I am a trumpet player and know that the orchestral trumpet sound needs chance to breathe, but most sample collections mike too close so the sound is thin. It sounds like you\'ve miked at a fair distance and the brass sounds have really opened up.



Nick P - Take note of this recording for when you do QLB2.

apessino >>

As for the parts that give it away, please tell. I\'ll have a look and see if I can do better.

<<



I would not presume to be able to tell you how or where to do better.. the other way around is much more likely. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Anyhow, if I must nitpick, for me some of the exposed trumpet phrases have a degree of artificiality, probably caused by the repeated, harsh attacks. In particular the line extending from 1:37 to 1:42 sounds a bit \"synthy.\"



That\'s about it as far as giving it away (damn!). I listened to it a number of times this morning with \"fresh ears,\" trying to find areas for improvement, and I honestly don\'t think there are many at all. I think the opening phrases with the strings could be rendered a bit more convincingly (the second part is much better in that respect) and I would have done without the choir at the end (which seems unnecessary and sounds fake to me).. but we are getting into personal opinion now, not really related to the realism of the work or your outstanding orchestral writing.



I still have no idea on how you get the large ensemble to mix so well. In my experience, it\'s fairly easy to get decent orchestral emulation as long as you keep the ensemble small. There is a sort of law of diminishing return when thickening the texture with your sampled orchestra (not with a real orchestra, though!), where the more you throw at it, the flatter and more fake the sound becomes.



What\'s so extraordinary about your piece, IMHO, is that it does not seem to fall victim to the above law at all (well, except for the aforementioned choir moment). The mid section from 2:14 to 3:10 is pretty much perfect.. with complex writing and a very thick texture, and yet the instruments remain distinct and \"three dimensional\" throughout. Whatever you do to mix your tracks, you are doing something right which most of us do wrong.. I wish I knew what! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Thanks again for sharing,



A-



--------

Andrea G. Pessino (not female, just Italian)

Blizzard Entertainment



apessino@blizzard.com

Thomas_J Thanks plenty! This helps me. I know the beginning is horrible, I\'ll definitely rewrite that. Then there\'s the synth-trumpet problem. Not much I can do about that right now, except I could try and add some staccatos on top to get a more responsive attack. Then there\'s the choir.. heheh well to tell you the truth I don\'t like it either. It was just some **** I added for texture. Didn\'t turn out very well and I didn\'t write any counterpoint melody for it to support the trumpet line. I\'m not sure if the choir has anything to do in the piece at all. Oh well, my problem http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Thanks a lot for taking your time. Really helpful! Nice to get such positive feedback too hehe.



Thomas

IOComposer Thomas,

Just out of curiosity, I did a quick emulation of a section of your piece to see if I could match the sound of your brass and I think I\'ve come pretty damn close. It\'s the big fanfare that comes in at :22 seconds. Check it out here and let me know what you think:

http://www.DramaticMusic.com/audio/TJBrassCopy.mp3 (\"http://www.DramaticMusic.com/audio/TJBrassCopy.mp3\")



Keep in mind that I did this in about 15 minutes, with absolutely no tweaking, just ran it straight through my PCM90 and posted it. It\'s only the brass and it\'s just a quick interpretation of your orchestration (which I\'m sure is probably way off http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

-J

Jamieh IO, I think you just showed the exact difference between the brass libraries that Thomas used and the ones the rest of us use. Thomas\'s horns and high trumpet sound exponentially more real than the ones in your clip. How much of that is processing done during the mix I can\'t tell you.



Listen to the high trumpets. His high trumpets sing out. The high trumpets in your clip sound pinched and nasally.



(Please don\'t take offense--I\'m just giving an honest comparison).



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-07-2001).]

IOComposer I don\'t think I entirely agree with you. Thomas\' horns definitely have more bite, but I think that\'s because his horn players had more air than mine http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif My trumpets sound artificial because of the reverb. When they are part of a larger mix and mixed with a different verb, they don\'t sound nearly as artificial. I just didn\'t have the time to do the rest of the orchestration and mix it right. I don\'t think the right term is \"exponential\". Perhaps \"not quite\" would be a bit more on the mark http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

-IO

Marc Floessel IO,



I like the attack of your trumpets, although I find them a bit static sounding, but the trombones and the french horns are (to me at least) just a world of difference compared to Thomas\' ones. Thomas\' ones literally blast the hall, crawling over every wall and nook. The far recording distance really works for that epic filmbrass sound.

Jamieh Sorry IO, exponential was probably a bad word to use. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif But your brass example seemed to sound just like the brass I have, while Thomas\'s sounds like the brass I want. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



I didn\'t ask--what library are you using for your stuff? Are you creating your own library? I just assumed you were using QL or AO or Miroslav.

IOComposer No. It\'s my own library. It\'s just that it\'s close miked, like the rest of \'em. Perhaps in another life, my dad will play in the orchestra down the street and all his friends will let me sample them. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

-J

KingIdiot yah and I\'ll start calling you Thomas ... \"J\"...



:P



------------------

Really...I am an Idiot

Jamieh Well I apologize--I thought you were just whipping together a demo from the available brass libraries out there. I wasn\'t intending to insult your personal work.



Geez, how many people here have their own libraries they use? I didn\'t realize personal libraries were so prevalent!



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-07-2001).]

Simon Ravn I have my own kazoo library.

Marc Floessel Far- or close-miked, Simon? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

IOComposer No apology necessary!

I\'m not insulted at all. I\'d much rather have honest feedback then someone kissing my butt! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

I did my library a couple of years ago in an attempt to grab the \"brass ring\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

However, the results were...well, you can hear the results. Pretty much like the rest of \'em. I spent about 6 months editing and making the .gigs. You never realize how painstaking creating a library is until you actually do it yourself. It\'s so easy to sit on the sidelines and say \"this sucks\" or \"that\'s good\", but until you have done it yourself, you really have no real frame of reference for the immense amount of work involved. If I had to go back and do it again, I would probably do like Thomas did and sample at a distance in a good hall rather than in an iso booth, however this first library took a lot out of me, so I\'ll use it for my work stuff and do it right the next time (if there is a next time).

-J

Thomas_J Thanks for posting that demo IOcomposer! It is really quite suprising how many factors are involved when creating a sample library. First there\'s the micing, distance, hall. Then there\'s the player(s), playing style, devotion, technique, quality. Then the most important thing, the expression. The reason I think my samples are just fine as they are is because I feel they inspire me to play with them. They are like miroslav\'s samples, expressive by nature and I can manipulate that with filters. I\'m not filtering the attacks on that many notes in that demo, it\'s the way they actually played. Even though they say that a true trumpet player plays his loud and high notes with a sparkling attack (instant) I don\'t necessary feel that this is preferable. As for your demo I don\'t think I would switch the samples in my demo with those. I need that hall effect that I\'ve become so addicted to. Still I recall hearing some stuff you wrote a while ago with your brass and it sounded great. It could very well be the mix. Things always seem to fall naturally into place when I\'m working on huge orchestrations. I usually add brass after strings, and then (if any) woodwinds and percussion. It really is quite exciting to hear your music come alive in that way. Anyway, we all have our preferences. I\'m sure many would prefer your library over mine and perhaps some would even prefer AO over any of them. People seem to have different conceptions of what brass should sound like. I\'ve found my sound. IOcomposer has his. We all crave for different things. Some like fat women..... *yadayadayada*



http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Thomas

astrt4 Thomas, how long did it take you to create your demo?

Jamieh I completely disagree regarding your view on the horns though. Metallic? Try writing those horn parts with miroslav, AO or QLB... Of all the sounds I have, I like those the best.



I also disagree. If anyone has the Hook soundtrack, listen to his short horn clip and then listen to Hook. I haven\'t had a chance to do an A/B comparison, but my head tells me that they sound almost identical. That is the sound that you get out of a big horn section that is playing full blast.



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-07-2001).]

Thomas_J Thanks Jamieh http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Simon Ravn <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:

I completely disagree regarding your view on the horns though. Metallic? Try writing those horn parts with miroslav, AO or QLB... Of all the sounds I have, I like those the best.



I also disagree. If anyone has the Hook soundtrack, listen to his short horn clip and then listen to Hook. I haven\'t had a chance to do an A/B comparison, but my head tells me that they sound almost identical. That is the sound that you get out of a big horn section that is playing full blast.



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-07-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



They don\'t.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Jamieh Actually IO, if you did that a few years ago then you did a really good job. I would say your brass sounds better than most of the commercial libraries with the exception of Quantum Leap, which sounds like it was done quite a bit after your own library.



I guess Thomas just captured the big brass sound I really long for.



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-08-2001).]

Thomas_J Not sure how much time I spent. I think it was around 5 hours.



Thomas

Simon Ravn 5 hours.... sorry but I simply dont believe that.... If you can do this in 5 hours youre faster than any Hollywood composer, AND you even have time to sequence, fully orchestrate, articulate, express, mix and master it... yeah.. sure Thomas http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Sorry about my skepsis... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif







[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 08-08-2001).]

Thomas_J Well Simon, I\'m not claiming I can orchestrate faster than hollywood composers.

I said I can\'t remember how much time I spent. It could be more, but I did it within a day. I didn\'t eat anything that day http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The thing about me is once I get going I can\'t stop, and I won\'t quit until I\'m done. I\'m a workhorse. There are things that need improvement. It would probably take me a few days to complete the piece.



Recording stuff directly into a sequencer sure takes less time than writing it by hand, especially when you have ideas floating around in your head. I must admit I spent a while getting those fast scale rundowns right. It\'d probably be easier to write that by hand. As an example the adagio part took me about 30 minutes to complete. I just played whatever I heard in my mind. I guess that\'s why it needs some improvement http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



The thing about this piece is that I didn\'t sit down and write themes before I started. I just began orchestrating some stuff to show off the brass and things just came to me, like they always do. That\'s why the thematic material is pretty so so. I should concentrate more on composition next time.

Simon Ravn I think the composition is great - that is also why I dont believe the 5 hour claim http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif OK some parts sounds like they could have been done in a hurry (especially the slower parts) but all the fast work in the middle sounds very timeconsuming to me...

mahlon Thomas_J,



Just curious if you are using the Kirk Hunter strings on e-mu\'s or on Gig (or another platform)?



I\'m selling my e-mu\'s shortly, and going completely Gig, and I\'m wondering what the Kirk Hunter programming is like for Gig. E-mu\'s programming is fine on Kirk Hunter\'s strings, but necessity dictates a sale of my 3 babys.





Thanks,

Mahlon

lex ...damn you\'re good Thomas...really impressive!!

Are you from Norway?

And do you maybe know Jacob Trier?



Anyway, amazing work...and see you at the Academy Awards in 5-6 years...hehe.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Alex

Thomas_J Thanks Simon http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif There\'s always room for improvement!



Mahlon: I\'m using Kirk on Giga (converted from AKAI). I\'ve edited all the samples to suit my personal preferences. Imo the best string library (yet). Excited about gigastrings though!



Lex: thanks http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif yes I\'m from Norway but I don\'t know that guy, sorry. Academy Awards hah... I wish http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Thomas

Nick Phoenix Some of this brass sounds amazing! The french horn section in particular. The kind of sound I am going for in QL 2. But, here\'s the QUESTION! Why should I bother? You have already done it. You would save me alot of torture. I have many other sampling projects on the backburner. Why don\'t you release your library? You\'ll make good money and it will be fun. Please tell me these are multisamples and not phrases. They sound like multisamples, but I am just making sure. I am not sure why you are encouraging me to do QL Brass 2, when you already have some nice samples. It all seems a bit odd. Also, did you have any noise problems recording soft multisamples in a hall?

Thomas_J Thanks Nick! I didn\'t record too many \"soft\" multisamples. There was some noise but I didn\'t care. I still don\'t care. I listen to film scores every day and there\'s always some noise in the softer parts. I don\'t really see any problem with noise as long as it\'s not as excessive as in my demo.

There are no phrases, but the fact that you are speculating just to \"make sure\" tells me I\'ve done a good job http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



There are loads of reasons why I\'m not selling:



First of all the samples belong to me. I\'ve spent quite some time on them and I feel like they\'re part of me. Giving them up would be a huge sacrifice to me. Kind of like sharing your girlfriend http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Then there\'s the fact that these samples make me stand out in the crowd. I have something nobody else have. Selfish? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



I could never release these samples commercially, as they simply aren\'t comprehensive enough. They extend from several soft dynamics to loads of f-fff playing. They kind of cover the holes in other libraries.



I\'m no sample library developer. I have no spare time to sell sample cds and I don\'t think it\'d do me any good.



I\'m not selling, simply because I don\'t need the money, the angry costumers (some people are already complaining they don\'t think they sound real enough), the bad reviews, the extra work etc.



I\'m sure someone (like you) will come around very soon (who knows, maybe dan deans library has some suprises) and make the perfect brass library. Anyway, I\'ve given you pretty much all the info I can give. Mic distance, playing style, hall. It\'s up to you.



Thomas



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-08-2001).]

Nick Phoenix SKEPTICAL IN GENERAL. You haven\'t disclosed any real information about your sampling process. How did you deal with recording p samples in a hall a large distances, for instance? Anyway why should I spend 6 months and $50-100,000 on a brass library. Maybe you will finish and release yours. QL Brass 2 Orchestral PUT ON HOLD!



[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 08-08-2001).]

Thomas_J Nick, do I sense a jealous vibe here? you have all the right to be skeptical. I just don\'t see what there is to be skeptical about? Everybody agrees that it is a sampled piece. There are numerous giveaways. You said \"some of the brass sounds good\". What are you insinuating? That I\'m using sampled phrases? If I was, how could I play those melodies? Recording p samples was easy. I just told them to play it \"piano\". The mics picked it up, the DAT recorded it. There are some noise, but like I said, I don\'t really care. I guess that\'s also a reason not to release the library. It\'d be prone to loads of criticism. \"what\'s with the noise?\" - \"I don\'t know. I\'m a composer.\"



I have indeed posted indepth information on my sampling process. Look back in the forum archives. What information is it that you want? Like I said I\'m no recording engineer. I recorded my samples at the end of a cd recording session with a symphony orchestra in Norway where I live. The mics were there, the DAT was recording. All I did was give directions to the players (who happen to be my friends or friends of my father who plays double bass in that orchestra). It didn\'t cost me a dime, and even though I didn\'t have time for much that day I managed to record a fairly extensive (relatively speaking) set of brass samples. My percussion samples were recorded when I served 1 year of army service in the military band. I made friends with loads of great musicians, and they were all eager to help me out in my search of better samples. The 1st chair hornist (a film music lover) lives just across the street and has helped me out a lot. He knew exactly what sound I was looking for. I\'m going to sample a solo horn soon and he\'s more than willing to help me out. Daily, I work in a pop music production studio as a producer. They\'re more than happy to lend me the gear I need. I guess I\'ve been lucky. Come to think of it I\'ve been VERY lucky. Does it bother you?



Thomas



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-08-2001).]

Damon <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:

Anyway why should I spend 6 months and $50-100,000 on a brass library.

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 08-08-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Wow! I didn\'t know it cost that much to make a library! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/shocked.gif

Nick, I personally think excerpts from your new QLB demo and James Newton Howards Dinosaur demo are the best orchestral mockups I\'ve heard out of all of them but that\'s just me and my tastes are usually completely opposite from most on this forum.





[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-08-2001).]

Jamieh Nick, please don\'t stop QLB 2! Just give us some patches that have the sound in Thomas\' library and I guarantee you\'ll have people paying you good money for it. I would gladly plunk down the same price I paid for QLB 1 for the big horn section and high trumpet sounds Thomas has here. I think if you added that to your already quite good trombones and your excellent tuba sample from QLB 1 I would finally have the brass to create stuff that sounds the way I want it to.

KingIdiot I\'d like to see somethig similar to Real Giga Drums done with Brass and a concert hall, where you can mix in the hall with the direct/close mics so you can work with wha you need.



Yah poly would be insane...and CD/DVDs would be in the high numbers..but man what a library!!



------------------

Really...I am an Idiot

Chadwick Nick,



Please take QLB2 off hold.

Simon Ravn I 3rd that. Nick we need that library http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif It\'s obvious that Thomas is not going to make a library out of his samples, so I don\'t really understand you on this....

Marc Floessel Ok, something IS happening here, but I have no idea what to make of it...

Nick Phoenix Thomas,

Yes, I am jealous of your french horn section samples. I want them. But, you are playing some kind of game here, I just don\'t know what it is. It\'s gotten to the point where I am receiving EMAILS from people, telling me that I need to listen to your demos, so I will know what to put in my next library. I could listen to one of a thousand real recordings to figure that out. There is more to sampling than that. I agree there is much room for improvement in brass samples. I just don\'t think you\'re being very helpful. What is the point of your posts. Anyone could listen to some soundtrack and hear what brass should sound like. You won\'t share your samples and you won\'t provide any credible detailed info about them. So what do you want?

Francis Belardino Right behind you, Nick!







------------------

Francis Belardino

Sound Designer

Audio Visions, LTD.

Wilmington, DE.

www.audiovisionsonline.com

tomhartman <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:



Thomas,

Yes, I am jealous of your french horn section samples. I want them. But, you are playing some kind of game here, I just don\'t know what it is. It\'s gotten to the point where I am receiving EMAILS from people, telling me that I need to listen to your demos, so I will know what to put in my next library. I could listen to one of a thousand real recordings to figure that out. There is more to sampling than that. I agree there is much room for improvement in brass samples. I just don\'t think you\'re being very helpful. What is the point of your posts. Anyone could listen to some soundtrack and hear what brass should sound like. You won\'t share your samples and you won\'t provide any credible detailed info about them. So what do you want?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Nick, I think you\'re overreacting, if I may be so bold. I think Tom was trying to show us that the kind of samples a lot of us are interested in, can be had if done correctly. That doesn\'t mean he should sell them, or go into a long discourse about them. I\'m sure James Newton Howard isn\'t selling his either http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

IOComposer I have to agree with Nick on this one. Thomas comes on here, shows off his wares and gets his ego stroked for days. Then he says how it\'s his and would never sell it. I keep thinking there\'s some sort of cultural difference or language barrier here, but more and more it just looks like some stupid kid looking to feel better about himself with \"nah nah...look what I got\".

To be honest, I think Thomas is hiding something here. I actually think he\'s pulling our leg somehow but I can\'t figure it out. It just seems too strange. Things just don\'t seem to add up in reality. Has he just figured out a really good method for mixing up Miroslav and AO, or did a 20 year old kid really have the amazing good fortune to have world class players let him sample them after a long recording session? I have a hard time getting my friends to let me sample them, much less established, professional players.

Perhaps I\'m jaded, but I really find it hard to believe that a bunch of professional musicians would calmly sit around after a long recording session and say \"sure, kid...sample away our livelihoods!\", no matter WHERE they are from. I know that it would never happen in America. Maybe things are different out in Norway, but I have to doubt it.



I\'m jealous and frustrated too. I spent 6 months on a brass library that I scrapped after hearing Thomas\' first demo. I just knew that it wouldn\'t stack up. Now I can\'t help but think, maybe I just need to approach mixing like an amateur with cheap reverbs, chorusing and an SBLive. I probably shouldn\'t be saying this, but something is definitely fishy here and I\'ve been pacing around the room for 2 days now, trying to figure it out.



I hope you\'re getting what you need out of this little egotistical exercise, Thomas. I\'m starting to really resent you.

-J

Nick Phoenix Here\'s the crux of it. Someone emailed me a VERY short demo of Thomas\' french horns. Sounded AWESOME. I think I could create such samples with much effort, but I noticed that each time a note is repeated it sounds like a different sample. One note is repeated 3 times and sounds different each time. A good sample library could and should be able to do this. But sampling every note in multiple ways takes time. This is not the way Thomas described his quick and dirty sessions. Also, if you have ever listened to a good orchestral recording, you will notice noise during the pp passages. This kind of thing multiplies when you use samples together, that all have this level of noise. Hense, the lack of ambient soft samples on the market. A happy medium and perhaps some $100,000 noise reduction is one solution for that. FFF samples are different and not much of a problem. I think Thomas could have easily recorded some nice FFF samples the way he described. The softer stuff is not quite so easy. Thomas describes recording soft notes as no big deal and having some noise. Maybe he could post some scales played with all the different velocities he recorded. That would be very enlightening for me, because I have had problems with noise on soft samples mic\'ed from afar. Thomas, if you really want to help me, that would be great. My new solo horn samples use this philosophy. Large hall, distant mics for MF, F, FF, FFF and a mixture of closer mics, distant mics and the Sony DRES777 reverb for PP and MP. This way the soft matches the loud samples in size and placement, but they are not too noisy.

Nick Phoenix sorry.



[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 08-09-2001).]

SCARBEE [QUOTE]Originally posted by lex:

[BAnd do you maybe know Jacob Trier?



Lars Von Trier\'s (Dancer in the Dark) current wife has been my girlfriend. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Is that close enough?

SCARBEE I think we are getting off track here. The discussion is not nice anymore and we are starting to get some severe consequences of this \"game\".



Nick, please continue your work. We want you to make this library for the public to buy and it will be cool. I own Q.Brass and it have helped me many times and being re-paid 10 times already!



Thomas: There is something strange about all this. You have been pushing a lot on the forum, trying to get developers to make a better brass library - why? If you already have superior samples yourself at home, then why bother? To make sure all others get just as fine libraries? Then why not releasing the libraries yourself - you have made the programming and all?



Could you release a 8th note c-major scale in different tempi and also play the same note 4 times so we can hear the samples?



This would be some kind of proof that the whole thing is not a \"game\" because it is getting out of control. We can\'t have Nick to shut down a Library, because of a \"Joke\".



Forgive me for the \"tone\", but you must agree that this is not what we want - less libraries...



Scarbee



Scarbee



[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 08-09-2001).]

lex .....way to go Thomas..I think most of the guys are pissed off now mostly because you write music so good...I\'m glad...

Yeah, since I\'m curently living in Norway can you tell me where you are so that I could just show up at your door step every morning and beg you to sell me the samples...hehe http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



SCARBEE....yes, men that\'s close enough, Jacob is his cousin, and a sound director on some of Larses movies... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Jamieh I dunno Nick--when I listen to his short \"Hook\" horn demo, it doesn\'t sound like he is using different samples for the same note.



However I just did an A/B comparison with the Hook CD, and as someone earlier mentioned, Thomas\' horns are a bit more metallic and buzzy than the horns on the CD. They still sound great though.



One thing to note about his \"quiet\" brass. If you listen to his demo piece, there is very little quiet brass. Even when the brass is quiet, it is pretty much the same big intense brass patches, just with their volume turned down. So if he accomplishes \"quiet\" by turning down the volume on a loud recoded patch, that would seem to solve the noise problem. I think it is harder to notice this because of the large amounts of reverb on the demo.



I\'m not a sample developer, so obviously you guys know tons more about it than I do. But I wouldn\'t write off Thomas as pulling some kind of joke just because we haven\'t figured out how he is doing things. I admit to being skeptical that he could do that demo in a few hours--it would take me far far longer to have written it especially if I was worrying about making it sound good in a sampler. However I don\'t think it does any good to start throwing around accusations--all that does is make people afraid of sharing their stuff, which is counter productive to the whole point of this board.



One other note, Thomas has been posting here since 1999--why would he come on here now after posting here for so long and try to pull a fast one on everyone? He even had very good things to say about QLB, so it isn\'t like he doesn\'t respect your work Nick:

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/000340.html (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/000340.html\")



Sure I guess it is possible that he is pulling all our legs and he hasn\'t created his own samples. I find it more likely that he has created a few samples to fill in the holes (as he saw them) in current libraries, but has not created a full library that he could sell. Maybe I\'m just being naieve, but I would hate to think that the next person who creates something will be afraid to talk about it here because everyone will attack him.

Adrian H I don\'t claim to know anything much about recording, but with regards to recording the quieter samples and not getting noise while miked up from a distance, how do they record orchestras for CD release?



Surely most of these recordings aren\'t miked close up, but the orchestra can play quietly without any discernible noise on CD recordings, so why not in a sample library.



Please don\'t flame this, I\'m not trying to stir the fire, but I am just interested in understanding the techniques in recording the sort of sound we are all wanting.



Cheers

Adrian

SCARBEE [QUOTE]Originally posted by Adrian H:

[B]I don\'t claim to know anything much about recording, but with regards to recording the quieter samples and not getting noise while miked up from a distance, how do they record orchestras for CD release?



If you record a full string orchestra pp you get some noise, but if you record Violin , viola, cello and bass seperate and THEN play them altogether on your sampler you get 4 x noise. It\'s like a piaon sample: if you record a 5 note chord you get 1x noise. If you record each note seperately and THEN play the chord on your sampler you get 5 x noise. You can get some noise away with noise-reduction, but it often leaves \"artifacts\" and can really sound bad. Sounds with high frequences are difficult to \"clean\" up.



Scarbee



[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 08-09-2001).]

Thomas_J Holy mamma! I feel like I\'ve sinned so badly! What on earth did I ever do to you? There is a simple fact you have to understand regarding my library. It was created to fill the holes. I recorded mostly loud brass and I use filters to achieve p notes. While this isn\'t optimal, it works for me, and really, there are some libraries that fill those pp-mp dynamics quite well. I didn\'t sample the horn or trumpet chromatically. I didn\'t have time. I said in thirds, and about 2 second long portamentos x 3. I also sampled a few shorter notes. All in ff-fff. I didn\'t have time to sample the entire range of the horns and bones (I sticked to the lower notes in bones and transposed later). So now perhaps you realize that my library has more holes than you can imagine, which is the reason I want somebody else to complete the work that I started!!! and a reason not to sell it! It simply isn\'t a standalone library of brass samples. I\'m eager to fill the holes, and I thought I\'d give the sample developers here a kick-start. It can be done, and as I\'ve come to know it\'s not always about huuuge .gigs. It\'s about their sound and playability.



IOcomposer: I don\'t understand what your problem is. I come on here and post something I\'ve done. Then I answer the questions that people ask. Since when was this not allowed? If you think I\'m being egocentric hey fine, ask the moderators to delete the topic. I couldn\'t care less.

Regarding my use of external gear I have access to most of the highend units I\'d need (and don\'t need!) at work. I just didn\'t have time to process it through those, besides the actual samples I was trying to show off wouldn\'t be much different with a $2000 reverb unit.



People are accusing me left and right but without any evidence. What exactly is it that you don\'t get? what do you think I\'ve done?

What would I gain from pulling off a joke(which I quite frankly don\'t see how I\'d do)?

I didn\'t think this topic would turn into a flaming battle. Really, that is the last thing I want.



FOR CHRIST\' SAKE! I never said that my library was BETTER than anything else! I just said I like this sound and wanted to know if this was the sound that everybody else was looking for. If it was, then I suggested the sample developers would take notice. Nick, everyone knows you are working on QLB II, and I\'d love for you to complete it one day. Am I to blame because you are getting emails?



All I\'m trying to do with this post is to tell those who are nonbelievers of distant micing and recorded hall reverb, \"It really does sound quite good afterall\".

Just have the mics hanging down from the roof (over the instrument group and a pair of mics in center) and capture the live sound of an orchestral brass playing in an orchestral hall. I don\'t know if I can be more specific.



I couldn\'t care less if you don\'t believe me or think I\'m pulling a fast one. But I can assure you I\'m not. I have nothing to prove to you. I really have no obligation to show you any thing. You\'ll have to wait a LOONG time till I post something again here. If I ever do.



Thomas



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-09-2001).]



[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-09-2001).]

SCARBEE OK - Thomas. I believe you. Don\'t stop posting - your thread has been very interesting to follow and you should expect reactions like this. Please remember all the good comments - ther has been a lot. Your explanation about \"holes\" makes things more clear.



Thomas

Simon Ravn This is a short respose to the past 10 posts or so: I dont understand your criticism of Thomas J. He posted an example of his music with his own custom brass library. What is wrong with that? I just dont get it... Thomas, what I REALLY would like to know is what you did in the mixing - anyting besides the verb? I think the AO piccolos sound a lot better than I could ever make them without doing something weird to them (and I have no clue what to do). They sound more distant and more metallic than they normally come off when I use them - they sound right... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas_J Thanks SCARBEE and Simon.



Simon: I\'ve edited pretty much all the woodwind on AO. The piccolos have been taken apart and processed in soundforge with eq and reverb. I also cut out a few of the notes in the runups flutesamples and then timeshrunk them to mix with the piccolo samples. There\'s loads of fun stuff to be had with the AO samples. For example I took the crescendo patches of the instruments, loaded the wav\'s into soundforge, reversed them and put a low volume staccato attack on them. Then I remapped them and dang! there I had some decrescendo samples that play very well.



The mixing is simply panning and (excessive http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif reverb. There has been some destructive eq\'ing work on the wav\'s of several instruments prior to the sequencing. Any more questions? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Thomas

Marc Floessel Ok, I don\'t believe in posting long insulting rebuttals that only heat up the discussion, but IO and Nick, you have clearly stepped over the line in attacking my friend Thomas here.



IO, that was just a horrid display of jealousy. You have recorded your own brass. You posted the demos on http://northernsounds.com/demos (\"http://northernsounds.com/demos\") . Like this one: http://www.northernsounds.com/demos/orchestra/JameyScott/StarWarsTest.mp3 (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/demos/orchestra/JameyScott/StarWarsTest.mp3\")



I would LOVE to get my hands on these samples, put mildly. That you of all people go bonkers and start throwing wild insults at someone who too has own samples, but for perfectly good reason can\'t share them, is more than ironic. \'nuff said.



Now to you Nick. It\'s understandable that your first reaction to Thomas\' brass samples is shock. After all, they\'re bloody awesome.



But I have to ask you: Did you even read thru the latest brass threads here? Thomas\' has time and time and time again gone thru explaining how to record this brass. He has done so nearly 2 years ago. Would anyone listen? No, let\'s just dismiss his suggestions.

He isn\'t an engineer, so yes, more technical recording details you\'ll have to figure out. You could have just tried asking him very politely, but this chance has been stomped into the ground.



Thomas has had these brass samples for quite some time (more than one year) - I\'ve heard them - but even before he, more than anybody else here, has understood how to really get the maximum effect out of samples. Just check out his Jazz2K demos in the userdemos section: http://northernsounds.com/demos/ (\"http://northernsounds.com/demos/\")



Clearly, this \"kid\" knows what he is doing. I could go on and on about this, but I have already said much more and in a more aggressive tone than I would prefer. It is quite clear to me that what Thomas wants to see is a complete brass library, LA quality recorded, but THIS TIME not like all the other libraries, but with his mixed Miroslav/Thomas approach to it. I can only repeat how invaluable I would consider the knowledge and proof of concept he has provided us here.

SCARBEE Hi Thomas,



Glad that you have decided to post again! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



You seem to be a bit of a sample wizard and you want to share - at least - the principle of your sample-technique. Maybe you could put togeteher a full recipe and send it to Nick or just put it up on this thread? It could be very inspiring for the brass makers.



Also it could be nice to have a \"wizard-page\" with recording, programming, ssequencing tricks - the Logic network has one and it works pretty cool. I know there is a Northern Sound Source User, trick forum, but after a while the thread is looong away. A dedicated page would be better where you could always and easy find the tips you want. A job for Chadwick? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Scarbee



[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 08-09-2001).]

IOComposer Come on.

You have to take my post with a laugh. I mean, here\'s an adult acting like a child because someone did something better! You\'re all right I shouldn\'t have been so huffy, but DAMMIT!! I\'m so FREAKING JEALOUS!!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I don\'t mean to make any enemies here or piss off old friends, but I was in a really cranky mood. I hope you all will forgive me. I\'m sure you\'ve all had moments.

Thomas, if anything, you should take my ranting as a huge compliment. The fact that your music is so good and your samples and mixing sound so fantastic that it could upset me so, is like Saliari getting pissed off at Mozart in the movie Amadeaus. You should be proud http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



No harm meant, really.

-J

IOComposer Oh, and Marc:

The reason why I never sold my library was because I gave up on it. It was too much work and I became disenchanted with it after hearing Thomas\' first demo. It just made me realize that I did it wrong and I didn\'t really want to put forth the effort to release a library that was less than perfect. Perhaps some day I\'ll finish it, but for now it just sits on my drives, untuned and unorganized. I use what I can hear and there, but you\'d be very dissapointed if you paid good money for them in their current state.

-J

Marc Floessel IO,



It was still wrong to attack (or be it \"attack\") Thomas like this, but ok, you two will have to make that out, I already made my point.



I am aware you are not going to sell your library. I don\'t know about the bones and horns, but the more I listen to your StarWars demo, the more I seriously fall in love with your trumpets. I do think they could sound even better when recorded in a hall, but the performance is already very much spot-on.

IOComposer Right now my library would require about 4 CDs. Over 2000 samples for each instrument.



Here\'s what I\'d be willing to do:

I would send Thomas my samples and if he could mix them and make them sound as good as he\'s done with his samples, then I would consider completing my library and selling it.

Are you interested, Thomas?

-J

Simon Ravn Nick, that sounds good! But since we don\'t know what release date you had planned \'it will be slightly delayed though\' means nothing to us..... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Z6 There was once this kid at a school in Australia. He was a swimming star. Every year it was a formality that he\'d win the school meet. A little kid arrived at the school. He was much younger, but he obliterated the \'star\' by more than a length of the pool. It was impossible. No-one could understand how he did it. The big kid was angry and jealous.



A few years later the little kid won an Olympic gold medal.



Keep posting Thomas. Please keep posting your music. The music is all that matters. If you build your own tools and want to keep them for yourself, don\'t let anyone persuade you otherwise.



And for the critics: don\'t you give up either. It\'s a big, wide world and some of us need to buy your samples. And if you know that someone out there is more talented than you, then that\'s just your perception. I have less talent than the lot of you subtracted from each other. So spare a thought for the mere mortals.



(Norway has produced way more than its fair share of great musicians, and the blighters are still at it.)

Nick Phoenix bring me a bucket.

Z6 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:

bring me a bucket.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



There, there sweetums. Don\'t cry.

Z6 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:

bring me a bucket.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>





By the way bucket man, the post was for Thomas. Just in case he felt intimidated by your petulant tantrums, I thought he should know that there are people who can recognize talent.

Nick Phoenix You\'ve gotten the whole thing wrong. This has nothing to do with Thomas\' composition or samples. It has to do with Thomas being not entirely truthful. I made no comments about Thomas\' composition. I only asked for details about the samples and got the runaround and caught him in a lie. See above posts. I think there are hundreds of good brass engineers out there who could do a better job recording brass than me. So it is logical to assume that if Thomas used the engineer and equipment of his dads orchestra, they would know what they are doing. Obviously so, some of his samples sound amazing. But, he hasn\'t been entirely truthful, and he\'s making us all look a little silly. I ignored it until I got emails from people. You know, he did this last year as well.

jubal <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:

The big kid was angry and jealous.



A few years later the little kid won an Olympic gold medal...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



...and then his lips fell off. What an awful story.



Thomas, your demo and samples are amazing, you should feel good about the tools you have at your disposal. I am also interested in the details of recording. I am building a studio out back (small, 14x12) and so at some point will be doing my own recordings. Of course not in the realm of orchestral instruments although I may give Simon a run for his money with his kazoo library. Anyway, is there a particular thread where you have talked about the types of mics you have used and techniques to get the best sounds possible. Nick\'s QLB has been inspirational in terms of the pop/jazz samples and I hope to be able to build on that for my own library.



Thanks,



Mike

Nick Phoenix I didn\'t attack Thomas. I just wasn\'t getting the kind of info I needed. Thomas\' above post finally described his library in more detail. Apparently, he didn\'t record soft samples now. (a change of story) Why does it matter? Because I am trying to create the best brass library right now. And its not that easy. Thomas was hinting that it is easy. It has nothing to do with jealousy. Thomas makes a good point, though. FFF samples can be recorded traditionally, in a hall, very effectively. I am aware of that. Its just the soft samples have to match the loud ones. So its a little tricky. On another note, good players (willing to be samples), instruments and hall are sometimes difficult to find. Thomas obviously found all three. Great! So, yes I am continuing the brass library development. It will be slightly delayed though. Something BIG coming your way soon!

Munsie \"QL Brass 2 Orchestral PUT ON HOLD!\"



Competition is good, he should put it on hold if he can do better. I have no idea what the price is going to be, but if it\'s going to be a premium price I\'d make sure I could do it as good as possible.



As far as the other guys go, you would be surprised the market you may have for your \"fill in the holes brass library\". Sure you may not be able to get $600.00 a pop, but I bet several of the readers here would gladly pay $100.00-$300.00 for your samples.



Why shouldn\'t Thomas and IOComposer put their samples together on a cd and sell it for about $250.00 or so and split the profits!



I think you are going to see more and more users make their own samples in the future.



Sometimes these \"less than perfect\" samples may be just the thing some users are looking for.

Chris Beck Hey Jamey,



Was that an apology? I couldn\'t tell. you actually called Thomas \"stupid\" you know.



The point here is that the quality of samples (and reverb) is secondary to the talent of the composer/synthestrator. People have complained about Miroslav and AO and Kirk Hunter for years now, but in the hands of a natural talent (like Thomas) you can all hear the results in the strings, which are all commercially availble libraries.



I have ALWAYS made the case for PLAYABILITY of samples over massive multisampling. It doesn\'t surprise me at all that Thomas could informally and quickly mic up a horn section and get lucky with the performance - that is so much more important than converters, mics, bit depth. And it certainly doesn\'t surprise me that he didn\'t multisample chromatically. Knowing what my own favorite sounds are, and some of them are years old loaded in my ancient Roland 760\'s, and how much I like them, I cringe when I hear about new sample libraries taking up 20 CD\'s (which i have complained about in the past).



Jamey, I personally think Thomas shouldn\'t bother mixing a piece with your sounds. With all due respect to you as a fellow composer, the two libraries (yours and Thomas\') aren\'t in the same league. I think part of what inspires Thomas is (as he mentioned) the expressiveness of the sounds he was lucky enought to capture - kind of like the way i feel about Gary\'s strings (16 CD\'s are worth it in this case) - and your brass wouldn\'t come close to cutting it. You\'re obviously no novice in the composing department yourself and yet you have struggled with your sounds for a long time before finally deciding to dump them... there must be a reason for that.



I hope you don\'t feel I\'m being too hard on you, Jamey, you just really let the kid have it and it was totally unjustified.



- Chris

IOComposer true.

I thought I apologized, but perhaps I wasn\'t clear enough. I\'m sorry, Thomas. I hope you\'re reading this and decide to come back to the forum.

-J

Z6 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jubal:

...and then his lips fell off. What an awful story.



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



It is. But it\'s true. (Your part about the lips is hilarious though: you are quite the comic) It actually happened, I don\'t remember the names, but I\'ve witnessed different versions of the same thing throughout my life.



What I saw was a whole bunch of bullies suddenly swarming all over Thomas (after the collusive nod from the ringleaders) with underhanded compliments entwined in accusations that he was lying.



That is not on.



It was rude and uncalled for. All because you were bloody jealous. If he doesn\'t want to share his techniques with you then that\'s his business and you\'ve no right to call him a liar. How dare you say he put his stuff up here to \'get his ego stroked\' (I paraphrase because I can\'t be arsed looking for the quote).



If some guy can come along and produce work that is superior to yours (without, apparently, even trying too hard) then that\'s just tough **** for you. Live with it.



Ever considered that maybe the musicians who play for Thomas actually like him? Ever wondered if that might make a difference to a session? Maybe paying someone to shove a mike in his face isn\'t enough. Maybe Thomas is simply naturally gifted. Maybe sampling is a very, very young art and maybe some people who make a living at now it aren\'t really that good at it. And maybe when they threaten to give up they should be good to their word, instead of duplicitously pleading for support. Maybe some people just happen to know better where to place mikes and how to record and how to shape a sound.



The people who attacked him (and don\'t go claiming you didn\'t; that it was all misinterpreted) should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves - especially the so-called professionals. Shame on you, you pack of wolves. (you know who you are)



Go get famous Thomas. Make these hyenas choke on their barbs.



And Bucket Boy, I\'m sure you\'re too cool to care but I was about to spend a wad of cash on some of your work. I still like the work but a hot poker up my large intestine wouldn\'t induce me put any of my hard-earned cash into the coffers of such a rude little mediocrity. I\'ll wait until the new wave appears.



That\'s all I have to say on this subject.

Damon Since when did music have to be so competitive? There are no points being added up here. Music is subjective anyway.

I only wish I had some of the jobs you guys have creating music for games and commercials, etc. instead of playing retro dance music 6 nights a week at the House of Blues for the past 5 years http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/shocked.gif.

Obviously your clients like what you do and how your music sounds and you\'re getting work, so keep at it!

Please no more smiley or winking faces anymore!!!!









[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-10-2001).]

Thomas_J Nick,

do you even realize how much of a child\'s bickering about ultimately less than important details this has become? Only, that none of us is a child anymore and yet here you are calling me a liar in front of colleagues and friends. If you want to go pick on details why not add my blatant failure to mention right from the start that I used a couple of Prosonus strings samples too.



I did record P samples. I didn\'t use them for this piece though, as my recording time was short and I couldn\'t get a reasonable amount of them recorded.



Thomas

Jamesmcwilliams <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:

It is. But it\'s true. (Your part about the lips is hilarious though: you are quite the comic) It actually happened, I don\'t remember the names, but I\'ve witnessed different versions of the same thing throughout my life.



What I saw was a whole bunch of bullies suddenly swarming all over Thomas (after the collusive nod from the ringleaders) with underhanded compliments entwined in accusations that he was lying.



That is not on.



It was rude and uncalled for. All because you were bloody jealous. If he doesn\'t want to share his techniques with you then that\'s his business and you\'ve no right to call him a liar. How dare you say he put his stuff up here to \'get his ego stroked\' (I paraphrase because I can\'t be arsed looking for the quote).



If some guy can come along and produce work that is superior to yours (without, apparently, even trying too hard) then that\'s just tough **** for you. Live with it.



Ever considered that maybe the musicians who play for Thomas actually like him? Ever wondered if that might make a difference to a session? Maybe paying someone to shove a mike in his face isn\'t enough. Maybe Thomas is simply naturally gifted. Maybe sampling is a very, very young art and maybe some people who make a living at now it aren\'t really that good at it. And maybe when they threaten to give up they should be good to their word, instead of duplicitously pleading for support. Maybe some people just happen to know better where to place mikes and how to record and how to shape a sound.



The people who attacked him (and don\'t go claiming you didn\'t; that it was all misinterpreted) should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves - especially the so-called professionals. Shame on you, you pack of wolves. (you know who you are)



Go get famous Thomas. Make these hyenas choke on their barbs.



And Bucket Boy, I\'m sure you\'re too cool to care but I was about to spend a wad of cash on some of your work. I still like the work but a hot poker up my large intestine wouldn\'t induce me put any of my hard-earned cash into the coffers of such a rude little mediocrity. I\'ll wait until the new wave appears.



That\'s all I have to say on this subject.



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Agreed! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Thomas, i\'ve listened to your piece and its really nice... tho i have to say that i think your brucknerlike peice had more convincing strings. I think the opening sounded quite synthy, i was expecting a dance beat to come in at first http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



However, the brass is wonderful. I say keep that library to yourself... i\'ve got some custom brass myself and if you are the only person with those sounds, then it makes your work more individual. I\'ve already grown tired of hearing the same roland orchestral sounds over and over when i listen to some computer game scores. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



don\'t let some negative remarks get you down.

Take it as a compliment that it sounded realistic enough to warrent that response from some. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Thomas_J Thanks to all the people who stays on my side on this. I really don\'t see a reason for all this bickering. I don\'t feel like I\'ve done anything wrong. And I NEVER lied about anything. Accusations like that are downright mean.



Z6: Hehehe great story! Haven\'t heard that one before. Actually I kinda felt like that little \"kid\" with a dozen bullies swarming over me. Thank you for your kind words.



Jubal: Thanks I do feel good. I\'m sorry but I\'m in no position to give technical advice. I\'m no recording engineer, nor am I a sample library developer. There are however loads of sample developers who frequent this forum who I\'m sure can help you out with the basics! Nick, Donnie, Dan Dean and Scarbee to name but a few. Good luck!



Chris Beck: I totally agree on you on the Playability vs. size opinion and I\'m glad you feel the same way about bloated sample libraries! Thanks.



IOcomposer: Apology accepted.



Damon: Agree on you there. Music is a very subjective thing and this topic is not about the actual composition (even though I don\'t mind getting feedback, be it good or bad), it is about the samples. Then again samples is also a subjective matter.

I like smilies and winkies http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif They provide a positive feel to the otherwise cold and emotionless internet.



Jamesmcwilliams: Thanks for your refreshing words, and good luck in the future to you! I enjoyed your music as well. What stuff have you sampled?



Thomas

Dis Thomas: I agree that distant micing and natural hall ambience could make such quality and expressive sound, and that it doesn\'t matter too much on technical details like types of mics, converters etc.

I have one question: I\'m very surprised these are Prosonus strings. I have Prosonus Orchestra, and generally the quality was propably fine in its time, but in comparison to today libraries the quality of Prosonus strings is not too good, just maybe a bit worse than AO. And if almost everyone at this forum says that with AO realistic fast passages are hardly possible, I can\'t imagine how they could be made with even worse string library?

Yes there are some few very good patches on Prosonus - great harp, nice flute, perc. etc., and also very nice marcato full strings patch. But the marcatos sound nice, big and powerfull, but NOT realistic, just a bit synthy. So they are fine usable, but not just for making reality-like sound.

On the contrary these very fast strings from your example sound to me very realistic and nice. Powerful, but also realistic.

BUT THERE IS ONE PASSAGE - at 03:03 - where the strings play alone one note for a longer time - and they sound so REAL that I\'m almost shocked you got that from Prosonus - it\'s almost unimageable for me. Please whitch patch did you use and how did you done it? It starts just at 03:03 - and it sounds like the most realistic very fast strings from standard samples I\'ve heard. Really good work!





[This message has been edited by Dis (edited 08-10-2001).]

Thomas_J Thanks Dis! Those fast string runs were composed using the spiccato patch on prosonus. The same sounds are used in the 3:03 part. Then there\'s Kirk Hunter from 2:36. I tend to stay away from AO as far as strings goes. There are a few usable patches though. Hopefully all my problems will be gone with the release of Gigastrings.



Thomas

Jamesmcwilliams <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

I tend to stay away from AO as far as strings goes.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Bah! all i have is AO... I guess i better purchase a better set as soon as i can http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas_J James: It all depends down to your requirements http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif If you want the ultimate in realism I suppose you\'ll have to wait for Gigastrings. I remember way back when I bought the AO kit on audio cds and did all the sampling and mapping and tuning etc, myself. It took forever. With the strings, it just wasn\'t worth it. They sound quite synthetic by nature.- The other sounds, including percussion, are quite nice though. I especially like the marimba, xylophone, glockenspiel and vibraphone, simply because the patches are small and they sound good enough in an orchestration. It just feels like a waste of space and ram to load up a 300mb xylophone that just plays for 5 seconds and then keeps quiet the rest of the time. This is why I still value smaller .gigs. Most of my favourite patches are small and I even prefer some of the pianos in Ultimate Pianos over the Gigapiano. That\'s how weird I am. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Thomas

Jamesmcwilliams <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

James: It all depends down to your requirements http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif If you want the ultimate in realism I suppose you\'ll have to wait for Gigastrings. I remember way back when I bought the AO kit on audio cds and did all the sampling and mapping and tuning etc, myself. It took forever. With the strings, it just wasn\'t worth it. They sound quite synthetic by nature.- The other sounds, including percussion, are quite nice though. I especially like the marimba, xylophone, glockenspiel and vibraphone, simply because the patches are small and they sound good enough in an orchestration. It just feels like a waste of space and ram to load up a 300mb xylophone that just plays for 5 seconds and then keeps quiet the rest of the time. This is why I still value smaller .gigs. Most of my favourite patches are small and I even prefer some of the pianos in Ultimate Pianos over the Gigapiano. That\'s how weird I am. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



All i have of AO is the strings, i purchased them seperate, then i got 3 x-sample cd\'s.

And thats my whole collection of sounds.



I have no brass (apart from stuff i\'ve made myself, tho they aren\'t even multisamples, just the same recording pitched up and down)



The x-sample woodwinds are quite nice, the percussion is good too, and the celesta and psalter and concert harp are pretty good.



With regards to sample size, i agree that massive samples can be completely useless.

And the 500 meg concert harp is just too much! i just use the mono.



My brass is absolutly tiny, yet i find it works reasonably well (i only have two different brass samples too, so my options are somewhat limited)



To be honest, i am quite new to the sequencing and sampling scene, so i\'m still learning, and hopefully i will be able to afford some new strings and brass soon. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

mahlon Thomas,

What are you using for celli? I\'ve found the Kirk Hunter celli a little synthetic for my taste, but have gotten good results mixing Vitous celli with them, even mixing the vitous solo cello very lightly on top (it has great playability)--just as long as the Kirk Hunter celli support and not dominate. I find I get more variation and emotion in the celli section to do it that way. I would love to find good celli patches. Maybe this new string library will do it...



Mahlon

Dis Then I propably have some other(?) version of Prosonus CD, because I haven\'t any spiccato patches on them ;o). And the marcatos on CD really doesn\'t sound as good as the strings in the example. Hmm.. maybe they released some new version with improved (?) patches.



[This message has been edited by Dis (edited 08-11-2001).]

donnie Heres an idea....Thomas why don\'t you post your midi file to this demo? That way people can see what you did!



Donnie

donnie <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dis:

Then I propably have some other(?) version of Prosonus CD, because I haven\'t any spiccato patches on them ;o). And the marcatos on CD really doesn\'t sound as good as the strings in the example. Hmm.. maybe they released some new version with improved (?) patches.





You might just get what you wish for......





Donnie

[This message has been edited by Dis (edited 08-11-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simon Ravn Dis, I checked the Prosonus samples today and yes, the staccatos are actually rather nice and it sounds like it was those that were used in Thomas\' piece...

tomhartman <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:



What I saw was a whole bunch of bullies suddenly swarming all over Thomas (after the collusive nod from the ringleaders) with underhanded compliments entwined in accusations that he was lying.

(SNIP)



Go get famous Thomas. Make these hyenas choke on their barbs.



And Bucket Boy, I\'m sure you\'re too cool to care but I was about to spend a wad of cash on some of your work. I still like the work but a hot poker up my large intestine wouldn\'t induce me put any of my hard-earned cash into the coffers of such a rude little mediocrity. I\'ll wait until the new wave appears.



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I was surprised by the reaction of everyone myself, it\'s none of anyone\'s business if Tom doesn\'t want to reveal details or not. it wasn\'t the point of his post. The Spanish Inquisition comes to Giga Forums.

Nick Phoenix Z6, I seem to piss someone off every 6 months. I used to be a really mellow guy. Honest. Still, I haven\'t really changed my mindset on this topic. I create samples for my own use and also sell them for profit. But also REALLY enjoy sharing them. Isn\'t that the whole purpose of this forum? To share ideas etc.. So I guess Thomas deal seems a little wierd to me. He created some great samples, sticks them in our faces. Is a little vague and contradictory. I buy tons of libraries and would love to have his horns. But, he won\'t share and to tell the truth I am still not sure what he really has. If you listen to his demo, you might think he has a complete library. He says he only did a few things, mostly at FFF. I think he should have prefaced this thread with that. Still, in the end i\'ll probably do a better job on QLB 2 because of this thread. I seem to have the same problem over and over on this site. Sometimes, I say things from a composers standpoint, but I am always considered a developer. As a developer, I am competitive, but my desire for better libraries overrides that.

Z6 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:

Z6, I seem to piss someone off every 6 months... I am competitive, but my desire for better libraries overrides that... But, he won\'t share and to tell the truth I am still not sure what he really has.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I understand that you are competitive and, no doubt, a perfectionist. It shows in your work; which is quite superb. But when people such as yourself, who carry some weight in this field, lead a kind of battle against someone merely for posting some good work, there\'s a possibility that it can actually damage the object of the vitriol.



Try to remember how you are perceived within this group. You may think you\'re just being honest and expressing yourself, but as far as I know, Thomas is not yet a fully-fledged professional and has maybe not developed a skin to withstand such an fierce onslaught. Perhaps he cannot yet look at awards or a fat bankroll, or great reviews to bolster his confidence when under fire (although I\'m sure that these things will come to him presently).



I believe you did intend to hurt him. I would say to Thomas that your very obsession to \'find out\' how he did it is cause for him never to divulge anything; but that\'s up to him.



Again, I understand that your skills in this field are highly developed, and widely respected and acknowledged. But, at the risk of you reaching for that bucket of yours, you remind me of the Russian chess grandmaster (I think it was Alekhine) who thought there was a \'rip in the universe\' when someone beat him. He just couldn\'t get it.



I don\'t think Thomas beat you. Nobody thinks Thomas beat you; except you.



You imply that your work improves with all this conflict. That\'s good for you and it\'s good for all the people who use your work. But let\'s try not to destroy someone in the process, eh?



If you don\'t believe it\'s possible. If there is some fundamental law of physics that forbids the sounds he made, then that\'s for you to know and the rest of us to be too ignorant to comprehend. They say it\'s lonely at the top.



You have a \'killer\' instinct that has obviously served you well, but if I had Thomas\'s chops I would choose my friends carefully.



You say that Thomas should share, but you say \"People are Pigs\" in a discussion about the possibility of a money-back guarantee. Why exactly should Thomas share anything with you? He shared his music with all of us. You can ask him to share his \'secrets\', but if he doesn\'t want to, don\'t try to steal the information from him by browbeating him into \'proving\' himself.



And if, as you seem to be still screaming, he cheated, he\'s a fraud; then what\'s the big deal? Who cares?



What did he do? Did he scour all of history to find an undiscovered snippet of a score, then persuade his father\'s orchestra to play for three hours, so that he could post an MP3 here? Crime of the century.



This is how you make your living. Does AMD have a notice board where they post their latest findings for their pals at Intel? And what usually happens to people in this world with good ideas but no clout?



And what if Thomas is on to something? What if he can produce samples to solve compositional problems the way Isaac Newton invented calculus to solve an unrelated mathematical problem? He should just hand it to Nick? He should give his techniques to someone who has the means to turn that knowledge into profit and kudos, just because you think he should? What will you do in return? Aren\'t you asking rather a lot?



The only concrete effect any of this has had is that I won\'t buy any of your work, which is a great shame because I was very excited about it. But really, I can live without smart-arse comments.



I don\'t have much power as a consumer but what I have, I wield as wisely as I can.



But perhaps you\'ve done me a favor. I wanted Rare Instruments badly but it\'s far, far, far, too expensive. Until Moore\'s Law starts to kick in in this industry, it will remain on the fringe. Go have a look at the sales figures for the \'giga\' line and redo your sums.



I love what you guys do. Producing beautiful, pristine samples is an art. But remember you\'re standing on the shoulders of giants who have developed the technologies and the instruments that enable you to get all high-minded about copyright issues: Especially if you think anyone who has something you could use should just... \'Hand it Over\'.

Z6 Profuse apologies for such a long-winded diatribe but I do have one more point I think is important:



When I said that you stood on the shoulders of giants, I failed to mention the musicians that you sample. Most of them have no idea that every session they do for you exponentially affects their future ability to make a living. This is probably unavoidable, but spare a thought for them when you\'re giving speeches about the value of your work, and the cost thereof.

Marc Floessel Thomas has made this post about more than a week back ago. I think he perfectly nailed down the problem with current ensemble brass libs. The most important thing: Don\'t ever record static sustained samples. By now we all have heard tons of libraries with these. Instead record samples of many different lengths, that sound like they play a phrase, even if it\'s just this one note long. Expression and lots and lots of it!



Thomas_J:

[...]

...make a dedicated orchestral brass library IN A HALL with DISTANT MICING and ENSEMBLES. You get it yet? Distant micing (and that\'s _more_ than 5 feet away!) in an orchestral hall or a smaller church. Ensembles playing. And NOT playing static sustained notes like those you find in every commercial brass library at the moment (except miroslav). The reason why QLB was less usable in an orchestral context was because of all the static sustains. Let me ask you, how often does a trumpet player play a \"ff\" note for 6-10 seconds without ANY dynamic variety whatsoever? Sure, you can do some tricks with volume expression and filters but it\'s never gonna sound as natural as if you had different note lengths like I\'ve suggested tons of times before (kinda like an update on the miroslav vitous concept). It really isn\'t that much more time-consuming, recording in a hall with ensembles. Actually it is less. And you know what? When I recorded my brass I even saved every little mistake they made. They come in handy when I\'m adding realism to my sequences. I even sampled orchestral hall noise from the musicians. Chair noise and feet scraping, dropping sheets etc. Anyway, that\'s just my preference, but regarding the note lengths (staccato 0.1 sec, 0.3 sec 0.5 sec, portamento 0.7,1.0,1.5,2.0,2.5,3.0,5.0) I think it is a much better way to do it. Really.

Marc Floessel Sampling like this will take much time and effort. I\'d rather lose chromatic sampling in favor of more and more expressive samples.

Thomas_J Nick, I don\'t care about your opinions. You are entitled to whatever opinion you may have, but when you accused me of lying, I was baffled. At first I got really upset and thought, \"god damned him, I\'ll show him I\'m not! I\'ll do a quick piece to better show off my library, to prove that I have what I have!\" Then I came to my senses. I realized that if I posted such a demo, people like Nick would start bitching about some minor details, and we\'d have the same discussion all over again. This is why I\'m not going to post any more pieces of music, be it in .mp3 or in .mid. At least not to this forum.



Nick,

You\'d probably like me to come out and say \"sorry, it was all a fake!\", I\'ll have to disappoint you. It\'s not. Never has been, never will be. I don\'t have to prove it to you. It\'s a sequenced piece of music, using original orchestral brass samples, sampled by me. Live with it.

You are right though, I probably should have explained that I had sampled mostly f-fff samples in my first post, but I did clear this up later on. I don\'t understand why you are bringing this up? Is it just to add to your list of \"things-to-bitch-at\"?



I have given you all the information you\'d need to go out and do a distant mic\'ed set of f-fff brass samples, and I have also answered every question I\'ve been asked, to my best effort. Everyone have been very friendly, except you (and IOcomposer, but that was nothing compared to your accusations) - You\'ve been rude. Could you just point out to me what it is that I\'ve been lying about? I\'d like you to back that up with some hard evidence as well.

Now you even say that something good has come out of this discussion, yet you are complaining.



<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:

Thomas deal seems a little wierd to me. He created some great samples, sticks them in our faces. Is a little vague and contradictory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Contradictory? where was I being contradictory? Seriously, Nick. I\'m starting to tire from your mindless accusations. If you\'re gonna accuse me, at least have the decency to back them up with pointers, so people may judge for themselves.



I\'m glad there are people who like to share. I like to share as well. I share midi technique and music, and opinions on sample libraries. That\'s what this forum is about. If you want technical details on orchestral brass recording, why don\'t you just call up one of your recording engineer friends in L.A? I\'m sure he\'ll be able to help you out. I\'m 21, I have no idea what I\'m doing (with regards to recording engineering), yet you are offended by my posts. Why don\'t you just ignore me? You sound like my 17 year old sister with your bitching tone.



And speaking of sharing Nick. It\'s not

exactly like you\'re \"sharing\" your work at $695. Don\'t get me wrong. I know that you need to charge a reasonable amount in order to have a profit. I just don\'t think \"sharing\" is the right word.



Please forgive my hard words, I was initially going to ignore it. However, with that last post from Nick, I couldn\'t take the beating anymore. Hope you all understand this. I\'m a nice guy really http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



Moderators: feel free to delete this topic as I feel it has come quite ascew with time.





Btw Nick, the sequels always suck. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif



Thomas

Chadwick J