stuchiu's 1000: Skill over Time Text by TL.net ESPORTS Graphics by shiroiusagi



When writing up all of the different lists of greatest players of SC2, I realized that I had never expounded upon what I meant when I talk about the relative strength of a player’s strength compared to their relative scene, as well as the overall increasing strength of the player base from the end of 2010 to now.



When thinking about trying to quantify something as broad and vague as this. First I wrote down important moments when there were large strategic or tactical developments that impacted SC2 on a large level. In this case, it wasn't enough to create a new style or build, but it would have to become immediately widespread and eventually become rote in the meta. In this case San's High Templar PvT or Thorzain's mass Thor strategy do not count. Both were unique to the player, but both strategies were nerfed almost immediately upon their revelation before it made any impact on the player base. This also means niche builds that weren't widely used or map specific weren't considered (like Catz's gold base ZvP builds or Scarlett's mass muta into broodlords ZvZ).



Strategic and Tactical Revolutions through SC2 Zerg For Zerg, NesTea was the most important player when it came to understanding the fundamentals of the race, particularly larvae management and how that affects economic/positional development across the map. Beyond that the most important player to Zerg's development as a race was Life. Yes Stephano had the largest impact of any player, but his metas and compositions (the most important of which all revolved around the infestor) were nerfed in HotS.



On the other hand, Life's most important contribution to the Zerg was the tactical revolution in all three matchups. His style of aggression and more importantly counter-aggression changed every Zerg matchup when it came to the positional and tactical decisions any player had to make. While no one ever perfectly emulated Life's style of SC2, his tactical plays became part of the basic fundamentals of Zerg play that every player would include to some extent in their repertoire.



Protoss For the Protoss race, MC was the most important player because much like NesTea, he built the cornerstone of the Protoss race, specifically the understanding of force-fields and warp prism mechanics.



When it came to PvP, there were two strategic and tactical revolutions that occurred in SC2. The first was by Rain who taught the world how to always transition into late game PvP, the exact unit composition you can make, and how to engage in PvP. Afterwards, sOs had a very large impact in 2013 (though much like Stephano the stuff he made lasted about an year before Zergs had adjusted), while later on it was Zest in 2014 who had an even better understanding of tactical positioning and how that affected and interacted with all of the build orders in PvP.



Tactically however, the most important player was most likely PartinG. In the most important PvT series ever played against jjakji, he unveiled his 2 base storm build (



Terran Terran is an exception to the rule. The other races had one early player create the building blocks of the race while new players would come in with either strategic or tactical revolutions. In Terran's case Mvp did both. He created the founding blocks of macro play for Terran players for both Bio and Mech. Tactically he showed every Terran player how to play end-game TvT. He created the SCV pull against Protoss, he made and got nerfed mass ghosts, and most importantly he made hellion/banshee into the triple CC (The single most important TvZ build ever made in SC2).



Besides Mvp, the most important players to the Terran race were MKP and Polt. MKPs creation of the marine split has immense tactical and strategic effects on TvZ for the rest of SC2. In Polt's case, he played tactically the most important TvT of all time in 2011. On Metalopolis against MMA(



The Increasing Skill Line With all of that in mind, now it is time to consider the increasing skill level over time. For my money there were 3 large jumps in skill in SC2. The first was near the end of 2011 right before jjakji's GSL victory where a new upper class of SC2 players had come into the fold (MMA, aLive, Oz, DRG, Leenock, jjakji, PartinG, Squirtle, NaNiwa). The next was mid 2012 where the younger talent of WoL had started to fulfil potential and the first few KeSPA players had transferred over (Life, TaeJa, Creator, Symbol, HyuN, RorO, Rain, Stephano). The last bump of skill happened past the halfway mark in 2013 around the time of the PL Finals where the last of the KeSPA transfers had gotten nearly 1.5 years of practice and were now coming into their own (sOs, Soulkey, INnoVation, herO, Dear, Trap, Classic, Zest, soO). After that, only a handful of new players would trickle to the top, but there would never be large leaps of new players entering the top class all at once as the previous time periods.



Many of the strategic and tactical revolutions coincided with each wave of new champions and their understanding of the game became widespread and become rote in the meta. And it is from this understanding of SC2's timeline that we can start to understand and contextualize the achievements of the various players therein.



When writing up all of the different lists of greatest players of SC2, I realized that I had never expounded upon what I meant when I talk about the relative strength of a player’s strength compared to their relative scene, as well as the overall increasing strength of the player base from the end of 2010 to now.When thinking about trying to quantify something as broad and vague as this. First I wrote down important moments when there were large strategic or tactical developments that impacted SC2 on a large level. In this case, it wasn't enough to create a new style or build, but it would have to become immediately widespread and eventually become rote in the meta. In this case San's High Templar PvT or Thorzain's mass Thor strategy do not count. Both were unique to the player, but both strategies were nerfed almost immediately upon their revelation before it made any impact on the player base. This also means niche builds that weren't widely used or map specific weren't considered (like Catz's gold base ZvP builds or Scarlett's mass muta into broodlords ZvZ).For Zerg, NesTea was the most important player when it came to understanding the fundamentals of the race, particularly larvae management and how that affects economic/positional development across the map. Beyond that the most important player to Zerg's development as a race was Life. Yes Stephano had the largest impact of any player, but his metas and compositions (the most important of which all revolved around the infestor) were nerfed in HotS.On the other hand, Life's most important contribution to the Zerg was the tactical revolution in all three matchups. His style of aggression and more importantly counter-aggression changed every Zerg matchup when it came to the positional and tactical decisions any player had to make. While no one ever perfectly emulated Life's style of SC2, his tactical plays became part of the basic fundamentals of Zerg play that every player would include to some extent in their repertoire.For the Protoss race, MC was the most important player because much like NesTea, he built the cornerstone of the Protoss race, specifically the understanding of force-fields and warp prism mechanics.When it came to PvP, there were two strategic and tactical revolutions that occurred in SC2. The first was by Rain who taught the world how to always transition into late game PvP, the exact unit composition you can make, and how to engage in PvP. Afterwards, sOs had a very large impact in 2013 (though much like Stephano the stuff he made lasted about an year before Zergs had adjusted), while later on it was Zest in 2014 who had an even better understanding of tactical positioning and how that affected and interacted with all of the build orders in PvP.Tactically however, the most important player was most likely PartinG. In the most important PvT series ever played against jjakji, he unveiled his 2 base storm build ( Set 1 Set 2 ). While the build is now defunct because it can't hold against MMMM, the real things to take from that series was his use of flanking storms, retreating storms, and how the HT would be implemented into the Protoss army (before him, they were always added on at the end as they were too complex tactically for other Protoss to get immediately).Terran is an exception to the rule. The other races had one early player create the building blocks of the race while new players would come in with either strategic or tactical revolutions. In Terran's case Mvp did both. He created the founding blocks of macro play for Terran players for both Bio and Mech. Tactically he showed every Terran player how to play end-game TvT. He created the SCV pull against Protoss, he made and got nerfed mass ghosts, and most importantly he made hellion/banshee into the triple CC (The single most important TvZ build ever made in SC2).Besides Mvp, the most important players to the Terran race were MKP and Polt. MKPs creation of the marine split has immense tactical and strategic effects on TvZ for the rest of SC2. In Polt's case, he played tactically the most important TvT of all time in 2011. On Metalopolis against MMA( Link ), he used the standard Marine/tank composition. But he used it aggressively as he attacked entrenched positions over and over again with split marines against tank lines. That single map changed the very basic rules of unit interaction in TvT for the rest of time and had immense tactical reverberations that eventually had huge strategic implications on both build orders and compositions.With all of that in mind, now it is time to consider the increasing skill level over time. For my money there were 3 large jumps in skill in SC2. The first was near the end of 2011 right before jjakji's GSL victory where a new upper class of SC2 players had come into the fold (MMA, aLive, Oz, DRG, Leenock, jjakji, PartinG, Squirtle, NaNiwa). The next was mid 2012 where the younger talent of WoL had started to fulfil potential and the first few KeSPA players had transferred over (Life, TaeJa, Creator, Symbol, HyuN, RorO, Rain, Stephano). The last bump of skill happened past the halfway mark in 2013 around the time of the PL Finals where the last of the KeSPA transfers had gotten nearly 1.5 years of practice and were now coming into their own (sOs, Soulkey, INnoVation, herO, Dear, Trap, Classic, Zest, soO). After that, only a handful of new players would trickle to the top, but there would never be large leaps of new players entering the top class all at once as the previous time periods.Many of the strategic and tactical revolutions coincided with each wave of new champions and their understanding of the game became widespread and become rote in the meta. And it is from this understanding of SC2's timeline that we can start to understand and contextualize the achievements of the various players therein.

Cricketer12 Profile Blog Joined May 2012 United States 13094 Posts #2 Speaking of MC. To this day I'm pretty sure his forcefields on Xel'naga Caverns is the greatest moment in SC2 history. Solemn Strike FTW l SC2 Liquibet Season 17 Winner l I am beyond imagination, succumb to madness.

imre Profile Blog Joined November 2011 France 9125 Posts #3 A pleasure to read and food for thought as always. Zest fanboy.

Surth Profile Blog Joined May 2011 Germany 455 Posts #4 On May 17 2016 20:47 Cricketer12 wrote:

Speaking of MC. To this day I'm pretty sure his forcefields on Xel'naga Caverns is the greatest moment in SC2 history.

which match would that be? which match would that be? i believe your actions dishonour Starcraft 2 LotV cybersport!

Olli Profile Blog Joined February 2012 Austria 24289 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:27:09 #5 LiquidHerO stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:



Figuring out the 1/1/1 with various counters using each tech option - robo, SG and twilight council.





Figuring out phoenix openings in WoL PvP (HerO was one of the first to ever use them, and certainly made them popular in the Korean metagame. They never stopped existing.) AND PvT (HerO was the first to mix phoenix openings in against gas-first Terran - something that stuck around until LotV).





Revolutionizing small scale game management in scenarios that derive from standard gameplay. A ton of things HerO did are still around. Example: Dark Shrine against an economically weakened Terran, using small squads of units with certain abilities to their largest possible effect.





Figuring out warp prism play in macro games all by himself (this is probably the most important one, warp prisms have been a core unit in EVERY protoss matchup since). HerO essentially invented protoss backstabbing the same way Life did for zerg.





in macro games all by himself (this is probably the most important one, warp prisms have been a core unit in EVERY protoss matchup since). HerO essentially invented protoss backstabbing the same way Life did for zerg. Figuring out how to beat the Stephano roach max. HerO remodelled one of MC's existing builds (4 gates, robo, third base) and adapted it to the metagame of roach midgame timings (1gate, robo, 3gates, third).





Figuring out how to adjust stargate to the same metagame and popularizing them during WoL. Largely refined SG into colossus play, better than anyone else in WoL. The same build essentially existed until HotS, when +2/blink builds took over.





Speaking of which, HerO did +2/blink macro back in WoL. He was one of the first to do so and helped popularize it. +2/blink was used by MC before, but almost exclusively as an all in.





Figuring out how to play against slow armies of any kind (Bl/infestor as well as mech armies) - that includes figuring out completely new playstyles that enforce mobility, harassment, completely re-modelling the way protoss economy management functions (using mineral heavy units to harass, a gas heavy, safe army to threaten frontal attacks, all the while expanding faster than any other protoss to turn pressure into faster tech and stronger armies).

This point is gigantic , because it shows a completely new mentality. HerO revolutionized economy management, army positioning and especially army movement and coordinated multi-pronged attacks AND non-committal aggression. This is the main pillar that protoss macro play is built on to this very day and it started with HerO.





, because it shows a completely new mentality. HerO revolutionized economy management, army positioning and especially army movement and coordinated multi-pronged attacks AND non-committal aggression. This is the main pillar that protoss macro play is built on to this very day and it started with HerO. Figuring out and perfecting blink macro vs Terran better than any other protoss, eventually leading to the widow mine patch. HerO began doing blink into templar play months before everyone started doing it.





Figuring out templar styles vs zerg, including the use of storm drops.





Figuring out one of the strongest PvT playstyles in HotS that only became weaker after the widow mine patch: Phoenix into Templar. Stuck around until BlizzCon 2014, where Classic used it to eliminate Polt, shortly after HerO himself beat Polt with it.





Figuring out multiple macro playstyles vs Terran: most notably perhaps early versions of double forge + charge/archon after pressure. Double forge was then refined by others.





First to use colossus drop macro builds, an idea that always sort of stuck around and eventually became a legitimate thing in HotS.





First to figure out the HotS PvT playstyle of mass immortal centered templar styles. Probably the strongest pre-mine-patch playstyle in PvT.



And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO.



PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo. Disagree with the protoss part. I think for the development of protoss as a race and figuring out how to properly play macro games, even during a time when protoss was horribly underpowered, (former)stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO.PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo. Administrator "Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."

DJHelium Profile Joined December 2010 Sweden 13479 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:19:51 #6 On May 17 2016 21:13 Surth wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 20:47 Cricketer12 wrote:

Speaking of MC. To this day I'm pretty sure his forcefields on Xel'naga Caverns is the greatest moment in SC2 history.

which match would that be? which match would that be?







And nice article as always stuchiu! Rewatching those Parting vs jjakji games now, man that game 1 stings. Jjakji really had it. And nice article as always stuchiu! Rewatching those Parting vs jjakji games now, man that game 1 stings. Jjakji really had it. #1 player in the world atm: J-god | Follow me on twitter! @DJHelium

Sharkken Profile Joined October 2012 Jordan 132 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:23:26 #7 Good article!!! I agree with everything in there. I always wanted to explain this to my friends but could not put in well format as you did.



I agree with Olli too about HerO



Thanks for this Liquid HerO Best Toss in the World

Incognoto Profile Blog Joined May 2010 France 10199 Posts #8 I did ctrl+F "maru" and something apparently came up but I can't see it in the article.



Article also seems awfully short, am I having technical difficulties or something? hmm eso-community.net | Age of Empires 3 Community Forum ! | maru lover forever | I LIVE IN USA NOW http://i.imgur.com/EZPrgbW.png

Musicus Profile Joined August 2011 Germany 23387 Posts #9 Stephano's units compositions and engagements were great, but maybe it was not the most important part.



Stephano taught us not to take gas too early and how to defend your early third base with the bare minimum of units. He was also the first zerg player to stream, who hotkeyed his eggs and it literally blew my mind alongside 20k other viewers. The way I played zerg completely changed afterwards. So he really added to the fundamentals of the zerg skills I think.



Even Koreans started studying Stephano after IPL 3, what a god. When Jaedong switched to sc2 he looked to Stephano to learn.



Life always had the sick plays, but it was too crazy to copy. Maru and Serral are probably top 5.

Elentos Profile Blog Joined February 2015 52843 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:26:37 #10 On May 17 2016 21:22 Incognoto wrote:

I did ctrl+F "maru" and something apparently came up but I can't see it in the article.



Article also seems awfully short, am I having technical difficulties or something? hmm

It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer. It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer. Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.

Pandemona Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Charlie Sheens House 42838 Posts #11



Nice article though, 1000 words makes it a much more easier read Wonder if there will be an argument in 30 years from now like there is in football where some say Pele > Messi/Ronaldo etc due to what they had to deal with back then etc xdNice article though, 1000 words makes it a much more easier read Moderator Team Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥

AntsKiller Profile Joined June 2012 27 Posts #12 In my opinion KiWiKaKi also had a considerably big impact on the Protoss race. He was the first player who discovered the Mothership and its potential at WoL times

Incognoto Profile Blog Joined May 2010 France 10199 Posts #13 On May 17 2016 21:24 Elentos wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 21:22 Incognoto wrote:

I did ctrl+F "maru" and something apparently came up but I can't see it in the article.



Article also seems awfully short, am I having technical difficulties or something? hmm

It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer. It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer.





Ah, mind = blown



Still though, this is kind of weird:







but good read nonetheless Ah, mind = blownStill though, this is kind of weird:but good read nonetheless eso-community.net | Age of Empires 3 Community Forum ! | maru lover forever | I LIVE IN USA NOW http://i.imgur.com/EZPrgbW.png

munch Profile Joined July 2014 Mute City 2358 Posts #14 On May 17 2016 21:29 Incognoto wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 21:24 Elentos wrote:

On May 17 2016 21:22 Incognoto wrote:

I did ctrl+F "maru" and something apparently came up but I can't see it in the article.



Article also seems awfully short, am I having technical difficulties or something? hmm

It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer. It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer.





Ah, mind = blown



Still though, this is kind of weird:







but good read nonetheless Ah, mind = blownStill though, this is kind of weird:but good read nonetheless



One of those will be the TLPD link, the others from sigs One of those will be the TLPD link, the others from sigs Writer Form is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive

Cricketer12 Profile Blog Joined May 2012 United States 13094 Posts #15 On May 17 2016 21:16 DJHelium wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 21:13 Surth wrote:

On May 17 2016 20:47 Cricketer12 wrote:

Speaking of MC. To this day I'm pretty sure his forcefields on Xel'naga Caverns is the greatest moment in SC2 history.

which match would that be? which match would that be?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYhThCWwyW4



And nice article as always stuchiu! Rewatching those Parting vs jjakji games now, man that game 1 stings. Jjakji really had it. And nice article as always stuchiu! Rewatching those Parting vs jjakji games now, man that game 1 stings. Jjakji really had it.

Yup thats the one. Yup thats the one. Solemn Strike FTW l SC2 Liquibet Season 17 Winner l I am beyond imagination, succumb to madness.

Teoita Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Italy 11896 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:33:56 #16 On May 17 2016 21:16 Olli wrote:

Disagree with the protoss part. I think for the development of protoss as a race and figuring out how to properly play macro games, even during a time when protoss was horribly underpowered, (former) LiquidHerO stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:



Figuring out the 1/1/1 with various counters using each tech option - robo, SG and twilight council.



Figuring out phoenix openings in WoL PvP (HerO was one of the first to ever use them, and certainly made them popular in the Korean metagame. They never stopped existing.) AND PvT (HerO was the first to mix phoenix openings in against gas-first Terran - something that stuck around until LotV).



Revolutionizing small scale game management in scenarios that derive from standard gameplay. A ton of things HerO did are still around. Example: Dark Shrine against an economically weakened Terran, using small squads of units with certain abilities to their largest possible effect.



Figuring out warp prism play in macro games all by himself (this is probably the most important one, warp prisms have been a core unit in EVERY protoss matchup since). HerO essentially invented protoss backstabbing the same way Life did for zerg.



Figuring out how to beat the Stephano roach max. HerO remodelled one of MC's existing builds (4 gates, robo, third base) and adapted it to the metagame of roach midgame timings (1gate, robo, 3gates, third).



Figuring out how to adjust stargate to the same metagame and popularizing them during WoL. Largely refined SG into colossus play, better than anyone else in WoL. The same build essentially existed until HotS, when +2/blink builds took over.



Speaking of which, HerO did +2/blink macro back in WoL. He was one of the first to do so and helped popularize it. +2/blink was used by MC before, but almost exclusively as an all in.



Figuring out how to play against slow armies of any kind (Bl/infestor as well as mech armies) - that includes figuring out completely new playstyles that enforce mobility, harassment, completely re-modelling the way protoss economy management functions (using mineral heavy units to harass, a gas heavy, safe army to threaten frontal attacks, all the while expanding faster than any other protoss to turn pressure into faster tech and stronger armies).



Figuring out and perfecting blink macro vs Terran better than any other protoss, eventually leading to the widow mine patch. HerO began doing blink into templar play months before everyone started doing it.



Figuring out templar styles vs zerg, including the use of storm drops.



Figuring out one of the strongest PvT playstyles in HotS that only became weaker after the widow mine patch: Phoenix into Templar. Stuck around until BlizzCon 2014, where Classic used it to eliminate Polt, shortly after HerO himself beat Polt with it.



Figuring out multiple macro playstyles vs Terran: most notably perhaps early versions of double forge + charge/archon after pressure.



First to use colossus drop macro builds, an idea that always sort of stuck around and eventually became a legitimate thing in HotS.



First to figure out the HotS PvT playstyle of mass immortal centered templar styles. Probably the strongest pre-mine-patch playstyle in PvT.



And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO.



PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo. Disagree with the protoss part. I think for the development of protoss as a race and figuring out how to properly play macro games, even during a time when protoss was horribly underpowered, (former) LiquidHerO stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO.PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo.



You are way overstating HerO's contribution for a lot of builds (you fanboy you! ).



He certainly helped with the 111, but other Protoss like Parting, Squirtle or even MC had a lot of key innovations down. MC was the first to show a fully safe 1 gate expand build that could hold any timings for example; before that people were bitching about 1gate FE being too greedy and not scouting with an obs in time, vs 2gate robo FE which did scout it in time but had a mediocre economy and a worse army by the time 111 hit.



The same goes for the roach max; stargate 4gate robo was ok if not fantastic against it no matter the specific variation used, and all the robo expand builds developed by Creator and Rain just to name two (who are the true inventors of the 3base +2 blink builds) outright crushed it.



The HotS Robo/Templar builds were mostly updates on the WoL Startale build, and imo Zest and Parting were much more notable for them than HerO. Stargate/Templar is also debatable. I absolutely agree on the Blink/Templar builds though. In general, WoL Startale players were the ones to refine PvT builds the most, along with Creator's double forge.



If i remember correctly the only Kespa Protoss pro who specifically named HerO as an inspiration was Bisu. You are way overstating HerO's contribution for a lot of builds (you fanboy you!).He certainly helped with the 111, but other Protoss like Parting, Squirtle or even MC had a lot of key innovations down. MC was the first to show a fully safe 1 gate expand build that could hold any timings for example; before that people were bitching about 1gate FE being too greedy and not scouting with an obs in time, vs 2gate robo FE which did scout it in time but had a mediocre economy and a worse army by the time 111 hit.The same goes for the roach max; stargate 4gate robo was ok if not fantastic against it no matter the specific variation used, and all the robo expand builds developed by Creator and Rain just to name two (who are the true inventors of the 3base +2 blink builds) outright crushed it.The HotS Robo/Templar builds were mostly updates on the WoL Startale build, and imo Zest and Parting were much more notable for them than HerO. Stargate/Templar is also debatable. I absolutely agree on the Blink/Templar builds though. In general, WoL Startale players were the ones to refine PvT builds the most, along with Creator's double forge.If i remember correctly the only Kespa Protoss pro who specifically named HerO as an inspiration was Bisu. Moderator Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Elentos Profile Blog Joined February 2015 52843 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:33:16 #17 On May 17 2016 21:29 Incognoto wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 21:24 Elentos wrote:

On May 17 2016 21:22 Incognoto wrote:

I did ctrl+F "maru" and something apparently came up but I can't see it in the article.



Article also seems awfully short, am I having technical difficulties or something? hmm

It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer. It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer.





Ah, mind = blown



Still though, this is kind of weird:



+ Show Spoiler +



but good read nonetheless Ah, mind = blownStill though, this is kind of weird:but good read nonetheless

The Maru mention ctrl+F spit out is TLPD's ELO ranking at the bottom of the right sidebar. The Maru mention ctrl+F spit out is TLPD's ELO ranking at the bottom of the right sidebar. Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.

Incognoto Profile Blog Joined May 2010 France 10199 Posts #18



That's why.. lol. I got completely stumped because if maru's name were to make an appearance in that article, it would certainly have been in the last paragraph where we go over the up and coming Koreans who are participated in that "bump of skill".



Fancy that.



In before: Stuchiu how could you forget maru?? D: OhhhhhThat's why.. lol. I got completely stumped because if maru's name were to make an appearance in that article, it would certainly have been in the last paragraph where we go over the up and coming Koreans who are participated in that "bump of skill".Fancy that.In before: Stuchiu how could you forget maru?? D: eso-community.net | Age of Empires 3 Community Forum ! | maru lover forever | I LIVE IN USA NOW http://i.imgur.com/EZPrgbW.png

Archiatrus Profile Joined June 2014 Germany 64 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:43:11 #19 On May 17 2016 21:29 Incognoto wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 21:24 Elentos wrote:

On May 17 2016 21:22 Incognoto wrote:

I did ctrl+F "maru" and something apparently came up but I can't see it in the article.



Article also seems awfully short, am I having technical difficulties or something? hmm

It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer. It's called stuchiu's 1000 because it's 1000 words at most. Ordinary stuchiu articles are obviously much longer. Like, 10 pages longer.





Ah, mind = blown



Still though, this is kind of weird:



~



but good read nonetheless Ah, mind = blownStill though, this is kind of weird:but good read nonetheless





Right next to the article is TLPD with Maru as 2nd. At least in how the article is formatted on my screen. This is your "maru" hit.



EDIT: Too slow... Right next to the article is TLPD with Maru as 2nd. At least in how the article is formatted on my screen. This is your "maru" hit.EDIT: Too slow...

Olli Profile Blog Joined February 2012 Austria 24289 Posts Last Edited: 2016-05-17 12:45:33 #20 On May 17 2016 21:32 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 17 2016 21:16 Olli wrote:

Disagree with the protoss part. I think for the development of protoss as a race and figuring out how to properly play macro games, even during a time when protoss was horribly underpowered, (former) LiquidHerO stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:



Figuring out the 1/1/1 with various counters using each tech option - robo, SG and twilight council.



Figuring out phoenix openings in WoL PvP (HerO was one of the first to ever use them, and certainly made them popular in the Korean metagame. They never stopped existing.) AND PvT (HerO was the first to mix phoenix openings in against gas-first Terran - something that stuck around until LotV).



Revolutionizing small scale game management in scenarios that derive from standard gameplay. A ton of things HerO did are still around. Example: Dark Shrine against an economically weakened Terran, using small squads of units with certain abilities to their largest possible effect.



Figuring out warp prism play in macro games all by himself (this is probably the most important one, warp prisms have been a core unit in EVERY protoss matchup since). HerO essentially invented protoss backstabbing the same way Life did for zerg.



Figuring out how to beat the Stephano roach max. HerO remodelled one of MC's existing builds (4 gates, robo, third base) and adapted it to the metagame of roach midgame timings (1gate, robo, 3gates, third).



Figuring out how to adjust stargate to the same metagame and popularizing them during WoL. Largely refined SG into colossus play, better than anyone else in WoL. The same build essentially existed until HotS, when +2/blink builds took over.



Speaking of which, HerO did +2/blink macro back in WoL. He was one of the first to do so and helped popularize it. +2/blink was used by MC before, but almost exclusively as an all in.



Figuring out how to play against slow armies of any kind (Bl/infestor as well as mech armies) - that includes figuring out completely new playstyles that enforce mobility, harassment, completely re-modelling the way protoss economy management functions (using mineral heavy units to harass, a gas heavy, safe army to threaten frontal attacks, all the while expanding faster than any other protoss to turn pressure into faster tech and stronger armies).



Figuring out and perfecting blink macro vs Terran better than any other protoss, eventually leading to the widow mine patch. HerO began doing blink into templar play months before everyone started doing it.



Figuring out templar styles vs zerg, including the use of storm drops.



Figuring out one of the strongest PvT playstyles in HotS that only became weaker after the widow mine patch: Phoenix into Templar. Stuck around until BlizzCon 2014, where Classic used it to eliminate Polt, shortly after HerO himself beat Polt with it.



Figuring out multiple macro playstyles vs Terran: most notably perhaps early versions of double forge + charge/archon after pressure.



First to use colossus drop macro builds, an idea that always sort of stuck around and eventually became a legitimate thing in HotS.



First to figure out the HotS PvT playstyle of mass immortal centered templar styles. Probably the strongest pre-mine-patch playstyle in PvT.



And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO.



PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo. Disagree with the protoss part. I think for the development of protoss as a race and figuring out how to properly play macro games, even during a time when protoss was horribly underpowered, (former) LiquidHerO stands out the most. He's still, imo, the most influential protoss in history. Here's why:And last but not least, when KeSPA players switched over, they all named HerO as the player they studied to learn protoss in SC2. Concepts that were improved upon, macro gameplay, etc. they all learned from him. So the groundwork for all they know about the game was already in place and they learned it from HerO.PartinG's PvT revolution and perfection of immortal/sentry execution doesn't hold up imo.



You are way overstating HerO's contribution for a lot of builds (you fanboy you! ).



He certainly helped with the 111, but other Protoss like Parting, Squirtle or even MC had a lot of key ingredients down. MC was the first to show a fully safe 1 gate expand build that could hold any timings for example.



The same goes for the roach max; stargate 4gate robo was ok if not fantastic against it no matter the specific variation used, and all the robo expand builds developed by Creator and Rain just to name two (who are the true inventors of the 3base +2 blink builds) outright crushed it.



The HotS Robo/Templar builds were mostly updates on the WoL Startale build, and imo Zest and Parting were much more notable for them than HerO. Stargate/Templar is also debatable. I absolutely agree on the Blink/Templar builds though. In general, WoL Startale players were the ones to refine PvT builds the most, along with Creator's double forge.



If i remember correctly the only Kespa Protoss pro who specifically named HerO as an inspiration was Bisu. You are way overstating HerO's contribution for a lot of builds (you fanboy you!).He certainly helped with the 111, but other Protoss like Parting, Squirtle or even MC had a lot of key ingredients down. MC was the first to show a fully safe 1 gate expand build that could hold any timings for example.The same goes for the roach max; stargate 4gate robo was ok if not fantastic against it no matter the specific variation used, and all the robo expand builds developed by Creator and Rain just to name two (who are the true inventors of the 3base +2 blink builds) outright crushed it.The HotS Robo/Templar builds were mostly updates on the WoL Startale build, and imo Zest and Parting were much more notable for them than HerO. Stargate/Templar is also debatable. I absolutely agree on the Blink/Templar builds though. In general, WoL Startale players were the ones to refine PvT builds the most, along with Creator's double forge.If i remember correctly the only Kespa Protoss pro who specifically named HerO as an inspiration was Bisu.



1) For the 1/1/1, PartinG, Squirtle weren't even relevant then. HerO figured it out in 2011 when everyone was losing to it. I'll concede MC's gateway expand, but HerO started doing nexus first builds vs T regularly - something that was extremely effective against a 1/1/1 and had nothing to do with MC's 1gate expand.



2) SG/4gate/robo really wasn't ideal vs roach max builds. The updated version was much, much better imo. Roach max regularly killed SG/4gate, but the robo first version almost never got beaten. Rain/Creator refined 3base timings in PvZ, but they didn't invent them. People (including HerO, but most notably Genius/Parting) did them way before as pre-hive all ins. As for 3base +2/blink in HotS, I think the specific build originated in the SKT house with Rain, PartinG and Classic. But the foundations of it already existed in WoL, as early as 2011 (HerO already used it as a macro tech option then).



3) Phoenix/Templar was a HerO build through and through, HerO used it exclusively (to beat Maru as early as a few months after HotS release in 2013).



4) Rain named HerO in a GSL interview. Best, Stork named him in an interview at MLG, sOs named him at some tournament but I forgot. 1) For the 1/1/1, PartinG, Squirtle weren't even relevant then. HerO figured it out in 2011 when everyone was losing to it. I'll concede MC's gateway expand, but HerO started doing nexus first builds vs T regularly - something that was extremely effective against a 1/1/1 and had nothing to do with MC's 1gate expand.2) SG/4gate/robo really wasn't ideal vs roach max builds. The updated version was much, much better imo. Roach max regularly killed SG/4gate, but the robo first version almost never got beaten. Rain/Creator refined 3base timings in PvZ, but they didn't invent them. People (including HerO, but most notably Genius/Parting) did them way before as pre-hive all ins. As for 3base +2/blink in HotS, I think the specific build originated in the SKT house with Rain, PartinG and Classic. But the foundations of it already existed in WoL, as early as 2011 (HerO already used it as a macro tech option then).3) Phoenix/Templar was a HerO build through and through, HerO used it exclusively (to beat Maru as early as a few months after HotS release in 2013).4) Rain named HerO in a GSL interview. Best, Stork named him in an interview at MLG, sOs named him at some tournament but I forgot. Administrator "Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."

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