Kobi Azoulay (KA)

Hey Caesar, thanks for agreeing to talk to me today! Before we get into your journey to Sweden, what was life like growing up in Syria?

Caesar Hawi

Caesar Hawi (CH)

Hello Kobi! I am glad to have someone who is interested in hearing about my journey.

I grew up in Aleppo, a city that lies to the North of Syria. It was considered the industrial capital of Syria before the bloody events took place. I consider myself lucky because my family were well to do and could afford to send me to an American school. It was a chance for me to mix with other nationalities at an early age and get a proper exposure to different mentalities.

Even though governmental schools are free of charge, many kids cannot go to school because their parents are not able to buy them food or school supplies. So I was one of the even luckier kids who went to a private school.

KA

That’s interesting, I never knew that there were American schools in Syria. How did that kind of school differ from other schools there?

CH

Yes there were international schools, but not many. They were mainly for the kids of those who had a foreign parent or were on a mission in Syria for the U.N. or any other kind of organization. My school was part of the International Center for Agricultural Research in the Dry Areas (ICARDA). Syrian parents had to pay a lot to be able to send their kids to that kind of school.

As for the differences, the education was mainly in English. The curriculum followed international standards and qualified us to do an SAT test upon graduation. The books were censored and some sensitive topics our government found to be against their ideology were removed.

However, I was still exposed to a different kind of historical events and facts that my friends at the governmental school were not even aware of.

KA

Let’s talk about the censorship aspect, because I know a lot of people have concerns about the government in Syria. What kind of things were you aware of that your peers at government-run schools weren’t due to censorship?

CH

Events such as the Holocaust, WWII and the Syrian invasion in Lebanon. Inspirational figures such as Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and so on. Movie-wise, Schindler’s List was banned for example. Any movie that involves political views against our government was banned. I have to say that censorship didn’t work later because we have a big piracy market that is hard to control. Also, the ones running inspection on movie stores can be bribed so they won’t even check what’s there.

I remember when I grew up we had a popular saying when we talk about politics: “Lower your voice, the walls have ears.”

It was the time when the Muslim Brotherhood tried to overthrow Hafez al-Assad (Bashar al-Assad’s father) and he used Stalin’s KGB techniques to control and scare the public.

I was born the same year the city of Hama was massacred by gas in 1986. Sorry I am wrong, it was 1982.

KA

That’s okay, your overall point about censorship is still very telling about the kind of rule the Assad regime has there in Syria. In the West we often speak about him as a dictator, and your comments suggest his authoritarian ways, but I have also heard push-back from people arguing that he was democratically-elected. From your perspective, how do the Syrian people really feel about Assad? Were these elections actually representative of how people feel?

CH

Are you asking about Assad the father or Assad the son?

KA

Good question. I meant the son, but it would be great if you could also explain how the elder Assad has been perceived as well.

CH

The father came to rule through a military coup. It was a time of trouble for Syria and we were in war with Israel (The October War). We won that war and Hafez was a general in the Syrian Army back then. He stole the lights by crediting himself with that victory. People were high on feelings of patriotism and believed whatever he said. He made many speeches selling people lies, just like any other dictator. Once he took control of the government, he eliminated all possible political opponents and then ran for president. It is debatable whether he had the majority of the votes or not because the government was already bought and sold by that time and it was only people so close to him (from his village) who were running things.

But to tell you the truth, since I was born and every time there are elections, we never bothered to even vote unless we are threatened. There was rarely any opponent against Assad and then back in 1993, the government campaigned that he would be our president FOREVER, so no need for elections at all. Fortunately, he died in 2000 (our elections take place every seven years) and he couldn’t feel the taste of “forever.”

Former Syrian President Hefez al-Assad(left) aside his son and current Syrian President Bashar al-Assad (right). Photo via International Policy Digest.

As for his son, he came to power by a constitutional change that took place on the same day (or the next day) of his father’s death. The Syrian people knew this would happen, of course, because we knew we had a dictator and the family would never let someone else take over. Since then, the presidential elections have also been a joke. How can you elect someone else if it’s only Assad who’s running? One time there was another guy who ran for president but we had never heard of him, he was a nobody. We don’t have rallies and campaigns like you have in USA.

Again, I am being very short. The details would take pages to tell.

KA

Totally understandable, we can only cover so much in one interview. It is that kind of authoritarianism that leads many Americans to believe that our military should help the Syrian people to overthrow their government and implement democracy in its place. What’s the general perception of that policy in Syria and how do you feel about it?

CH

The perception of the American existence in our region is grim. I was taught about the American values in my school, but I saw the opposite in reality. Every time America came to install democracy, so much blood was shed, countries were culturally murdered and we ended up with even more tyrannical governments who usually work for the U.S. government and are ready to sell their country and its resources to the same government. The U.S. government sees us as an investment, not a land with human-beings who deserve democracy. So I would say the general view of an American intervention is negative. Also, our government’s propaganda (political and religious) has always been against the USA. People grew up learning that the USA government is evil and wants to sell guns to everyone by stirring wars. Regardless of the hate I have against Assad’s government, I have to say that the American policy in our region has been really brutal and causes too much misery so far.

I always say that Americans are good people with a bad government.

Having said that, I do know some people who are against Assad and who want an American intervention because it is the only way to stop him and stop Russia. It’s like a desperate hope that maybe USA will come and save us without finishing the rest of us.

KA

Considering the turmoil that American interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya caused, it is completely understandable for people in Syria to feel that way. You hit the nail on the head about us having good people, but a bad government. I know plenty of well-meaning Americans who believe in regime-change, but don’t fully understand the bloody impact those policies have historically had. At the same time, younger Americans grew up with the Iraq War and seem to have a much better understanding of the flaws with those kinds of policies.

CH

Yes, indeed. I tend to believe that young Americans figured out that they are the ones paying for the lies their government told. Many good young Americans are lying underground because their government brainwashed them that it was for the best of everyone. I am so glad to see most of the young Americans are taking a stand against these policies. Even here at university, most of the Americans I have met were fed up with war as a solution.

A funny thought I had yesterday and wanted to ask you about: How come all Americans I have met in my life in Sweden or somewhere else have been so tolerant and respectful and friendly? Where do all these people with hateful comments on Facebook come from, really?

Maybe if those people traveled outside USA and got to meet other cultures and different people with different approach to life, they would have a second thought before considering their way is the only right way and their values are the ideal ones?

KA

You’re absolutely right. Since a lot of Americans don’t travel outside of the U.S. that often, I think the ones who do tend to be more open-minded to other cultures. The intentionally hateful comments on the internet are relatively uncommon or fake accounts, but there are plenty of people who have good intentions with their policies, but their fear of terrorism and lack of exposure to other cultures brings out this anti-immigrant, anti-refugee mindset.

Now that we’re on that topic, what made you decide to leave Syria and how did you do so?

CH

The main reason I wanted to leave Syria was because I never felt home or safe there. Corruption, ignorance and too much segregation as to how much money you have. I was a movie freak and a book worm in a country and a society that did not value both. So I studied mechanical engineering and decided to pursue my passion in movies.

However, the government placed a travel ban on me and my father because of something my brother did and I had to wait to find someone who could bribe the officer who decided to place the travel ban on us. We paid 40 thousand USD at the end to remove it from me and my dad.

My brother studied medicine and then joined the police in order to be able to stay in Syria without serving in the army. My mom had cancer and he wanted to stay next to her in those difficult times. After she passed away, my brother wanted to go and continue his studies in Germany. He sent a resignation request four times and all were declined even though he stated the reason clearly. My brother did not want to go on serving as a police officer because they are really corrupt. They told him: “if you think leaving the police is as easy as joining it, then you are wrong!”

So he decided to run away from the country and go to pursue his studies in Germany. This caused the government to get mad at me and my father and place a travel ban on both of us.

They accused him of treason and he would be killed if he thinks of ever going back to Syria, of course.

KA

Wow, that sounds like an incredibly stressful situation. How did you and your family end up escaping? Did you fly, take a boat, travel by foot?

CH

Again Kobi, I was not raised to learn how to bribe or deal with corruption. I cannot bribe people, I don’t even know how. I also hated the injustice poor people faced. No health care, no rights, no hope in a better life. After I left the American school, I was faced with a harsh reality of families stuck in an endless circle of ignorance and poverty with no system to protect them.

I did not escape from Syria. It was still safe when I left. I went to Lebanon and then to UAE and worked for Virgin Megastores. After some great years of fulfilling my dream of working with movies and music and books, I decided to go to Russia and study Linguistics. It was there that I had to renew my passport and I was denied that right by the Syrian Embassy who told me that I have to go back to Syria and serve the Syrian flag with the Syrian Army. That meant I had to kill people and be part of whatever crimes they were committing. That’s why I had to go somewhere where I could seek asylum.

By that time, my dad and sister had moved to Turkey because Aleppo wasn’t safe anymore and even drinking water was scarce. So I went to Turkey and met them before I took off in my smuggling journey.

KA

It’s great hear that you were able to make it out before the situation got too volatile and pursue your dreams, but I’m sure that must have been tough for your family. Do you feel comfortable explaining how you helped smuggle your family out of Turkey?

CH

I helped by supporting them with money while I was working in UAE. My dad worked with real estate and that kind of business was the first to go down as the city was hit by air raids on a daily basis. The borders to Turkey were open back then so no smuggling was required, but the road was dangerous because ISIS was still newly-founded and active, and there were other detours that belonged to different parts of the fight. My dad did not want to leave the city, but a day came when a missile almost hit him and they also couldn’t find water to drink or even wash no matter how much they paid, so he listened to us finally and left for Turkey.

On the way to Turkey, they hired an experienced driver to drive them. The driver knew what to tell every detour. If it was an ISIS check-point for example, he would ask my sister to cover her hair. If it was a Syrian regime check-point, he would ask my dad to not tell them they were going to Turkey. Of course, a small bribe always does the job in some cases.

I was glad I earned well back then to support them with cash money because our capital was mainly real estate and these were either hit and destroyed or worth 10% of their real value with no one to buy.

By 2015, the Syrian refugee crisis was already the worst since 1991. The war has continued for three years since, meaning that number has likely risen.

KA

That sounds like a dangerous journey, but it’s good to hear that your family made it out safer than many. How does it make you feel when people in the West characterize asylum-seekers, refugees and immigrants from Syria as dangerous, causing them to want to close their borders?

CH

It makes me feel sad. I think it’s the case where people are afraid of the unknown. People in the West had to suddenly take in a big number of refugees who came from a different culture and a country that has been ruled by dictatorship on all levels. Religious and political tyranny got the best of many. However, many of these people flee for their lives and all they want is to see that their kids are going to schools and growing up safely. Many Syrians feel strange in the new countries and find it difficult to integrate because sometimes it takes too long to break some patterns and get over what they have been taught for many years. However, the stereotyping of refugees and immigrants made it even harder to integrate.

When people in a certain country think I have bad intentions towards them and they don’t say hi to me because I might do something evil, then how will they know who am I from the inside? Talking is the best cure for such dark thoughts. I won’t say there are not bad oranges among those who came, I would be lying if I say so, but the media likes bad news because it sells better so these bad oranges overshadow the many other decent folks who want to live, work and be good family men.

The media has been a dirty player in our struggle honestly. They constantly play both the role of the devil and the saving-angel, all depending on whatever propaganda they are trying to serve.

KA

Hopefully hearing this story from you will help those people realize that most refugees are normal people fleeing a terrible situation. Final question: What do you think should happen in Syria going forward to bring an end to the turmoil?

CH

That’s a very hard question. I wish I knew what happened in Syria exactly. We still do not understand how things ended up the way they are. I think in order to end the struggle in Syria, Assad should step down along with his government and the whole Baath Party. All the super powers involved in the region, Russia, USA, Iran, Turkey and China, should sit down and agree which piece of the cake they want. It is all about power at this moment so if they come to an agreement, the killing will stop at least.

When I was smuggled from Turkey to Greece on a boat in the darkness, I was so scared for the kids who were with us. I lost faith in all politics and governments at that moment. We were running away from death in Syria, from getting caught by the German Coast Guard, from drowning in deep waters in the middle of the night. Each of us had everything left in a small bag and we had our money hidden and glued into our underwear. It was the darkest and most scary night of my life and it was the night when I decided to lose faith in politics honestly.

KA

That actually sparked a few follow-up questions for me:

1.) Can you tell the full story of your journey from Turkey into Europe?

2.) If Assad refuses to step down and is backed by his international allies, what kind of role would you like the U.S. and Europe to have in Syria?

CH

Telling you about my journey will take a long response, but I hope you don’t mind.

KA

Nope I don’t mind, it sounds like a pretty compelling story.

CH

After I met my family in Turkey, I said goodbye and left for the West Coast of Turkey. It was a popular smuggling point there! Me and my cousin, who left his wife and two daughters behind, stayed in a hotel and started looking for a smuggler to smuggle us. We found one who asked for 2,500 Euros from each of us. It was more expensive than other smugglers, but he promised that the drop-off point will be close to a police station on some Greek island so we don’t have to walk a lot. We went to the pick-up point many times but we failed, sometimes because the moonlight was too strong and sometimes because there were too many Coast Guard ships. It was the time when Germany did not want refugees and guarded their borders and monitored the most popular smuggling routes. For us as refugees, it was our biggest nightmare to get caught by the German Coast Guard because while the Greek or the Turkish Coast Guard would simple send you back and arrest the boat driver for human trafficking, the German Coast Guard would beat us with sticks and sometimes they cause bad damage to people. They also confiscated the phones and the money we had hidden. So basically they took our hope in reaching Europe cause the smuggling trip all in all would cost around eight or nine-thousand Euros that you had to bring with you in cash notes. If you lose this money, your hope is lost unless you come from a very rich family.

But back to my story, after many tries, we got to one night where there was almost no moon and the smugglers accompanied us to the pick-up point. It was a scary cliff we had to climb down, we were around 12 adults and three children. The smuggler charged more for the children because not all smugglers accepted children. The boat was waiting for us down the cliff. We had nothing but a few necessary things. The boat driver was so drunk, he could barely stand; we found out later that they did this so they would get an easier sentence if they get caught by the Coast Guard as they could claim that they were under the influence of alcohol. They loaded us into a boat that can fit five to six people maximum and we were 17 including the driver and his assistance. They started driving in the dark and turned off all lights so the Coast Guard wouldn’t catch them. The kids started crying and I saw the boat going really low and almost leveling with the water. I thought we were going to drown back then.

I saw black shapes around me and figured they were big rocks and small islands. After 45 minutes, we saw a very big black shape and the boat slowed down. The guy screamed at us in Turkish to just get off, we threw ourselves into the water without knowing if it was shallow or deep. It was fortunately the shore of some island. The boat left right away and we ran towards the beach. The Coast Guard came within 10 seconds and put lights on us; we hid behind bushes and prayed it wasn’t the Germans. But we remembered that we were not their business now because we were on land. They were interested in the smuggler now who got away with almost 50 thousand Euros that night.

On the island, we found only one way up. We checked Google Maps on my phone and found out it was an island called Pserimos. We tried to find if there were any building around, but nothing was visible. We started climbing up, I am so thankful still that it was pitch black otherwise I wouldn’t make it. I am so scared of heights and we were walking right next to a cliff with almost a 200 meter drop. One kid was so scared, he couldn’t walk further anymore. He could feel the height and the darkness and the dark Mediterranean staring at us. We walked for six hours that night and were completely exhausted and so thirsty. We didn’t bring enough water because the smuggler promised it would be a short walk and charged us more for that. It was a mistake to trust a human trafficker at the end. Anyway, we slept on the side of the cliff and we were overwhelmed with the smell of wild thyme. Every now and then we would hear bells ringing and this filled us with hope that humans were nearby (we found out later that these were goats roaming around freely). I had nine-thousand Euros sewed into my underwear and bagged in many layers of nylon. I had to check on them every now and then because I didn’t know any of the guys I was walking with, but later I got to realize they were decent folks who were also afraid for their own money.

After a two hour break, dawn came upon us and we resumed walking. Only then I realized how high our path was and thanked heaven it was too dark for me to see. We saw a dry riverbed (it was a super hot September day) and we followed it for almost five hours under the fierce sun. We were dehydrated and some people started hallucinating, while some gave up and couldn’t walk anymore. Each of us, including me, had a moment when he/she gave up and we had to support them and encourage them to keep going.

At around 12 p.m., after 12 hours of walking, we saw some fishnets. It was a moment I would never forget. We ran towards the fishnets and banged on the doors. I also called the Greek Police to inform them that we were somewhere on the island and we could give them a location we could describe. The Greek Coast Guard came to us after a while and threw some water bottles that we had to swim to take, but it was a matter of life and death for us. After a while, people passed by and we asked them to guide us to the main village and they gladly did. Someone gave us water from their well and others gave us apples from their garden. We were all crying. We handed ourselves to the police who processed our papers and gave us permits to stay in Greece for six months.

After two days, we went to Athens and started looking for other smugglers who could help us get to Sweden or Norway for some others. I found many and tried about eight times from the Athens airport. Again, Germany had officers there because they gave loans to Greece and wanted to control the borders so less people could get into the rest of Europe and Germany, especially. For me, I tried eight times. Each time I got caught by Greek Officers who told me to go home and try again once they knew I was Syrian. They even wished me better luck next times. Some friends were caught by German officers and were sent to prison for a couple of weeks. My last try was successful and I was lucky to get on the airplane going to Rome.

Once I got to Rome it was supposed to be a piece of cake, but not that day. There was apparently a report of some security breach and everyone was checked. Now in case you didn’t know, the way we were smuggled was by giving us fake passports and IDs with our photos on them. You needed too much luck for the officer not to stop you and check your papers. But when I knew I was going to be checked in Rome, I knew this was going to be bad. A passport control officer would know right away that my passport was fake and would send me to prison or even worse, back to Athens. So there were four officers and I had to gamble; I looked at the first one, he was a very serious young man. I looked at the second, she was a very angry lady. The third, however, was an old man who looked so kind. I went to him with tears in my eyes and told him that I need to pass from Rome to go to Sweden. He looked at me and told me “your passport is fake, you are Syrian, right?” I said “Yes!” He asked me, “How was Greece?” I told him it was nice, but I have been there for two months trying to get smuggled and I am out of money. I only want to go on to Sweden and I am not staying in Rome. He laughed and marked my passport and wished me luck, then opened the door for me. I thanked him a hundred times. He literally broke the law to help me and I wish I know his name to send him a thank you letter. Once I exited Rome, it was a smooth trip to Sweden and here I am now.

The journey to Sweden cost me around 11 thousand Euros from A to Z.

KA

Wow that’s an incredible story, I’m glad everything worked out at the end! I’ve read many of these stories online, but I’ve never actually spoken to someone who has gone through it themselves.

CH

But I have to say that the journey took a part of me. I saw parents who saw their kids drowning in front of them. So yes I am glad it turned out well in my case and my family is OK in Turkey.

As for the other question.

Well, if Assad refuses to step down then war will go on. USA and EU intervention means a bigger war. I am not sure if war is ever a solution, but maybe it would rid us of Assad. However, it would destroy what’s left of the country. In a better world. I would wish for USA to stop arming the Kurds, for Russia and Iran to stop supporting Assad and for EU and USA to take our hands and help us build a better democratic country. I don’t see this happening though. The borders are closed for refugees from Syria and many people are dying everyday. Maybe this will stop once Assad has no foes left inside, but then we are back to where we started and Assad remains. I think it’s easy to assume that people who are still in Syria will accept Assad again if the killing stops and they can walk safely. They also lost hope that we would get a better option, I guess.

I also hope the USA and EU would look at us as humans and not some part of political deals. Germany who was against immigration opened the borders wide open in the Summer of 2015 because Turkey threatened them with sending many Syrian refugees. Now the borders are closed to refugees all around Europe, although the situation is still very bad in Syria. It’s just politics that has changed. If governments would look at us as people, these attitude shifts wouldn’t happen.

And I keep mentioning Germany not because I have something against their government, but because they are the major player within the EU.

KA

Thank you so much for talking to me about your story and perspective on what should happen in Syria. Hopefully in a small way, your experience can help change minds and contribute to a lasting-peace in Syria.

CH

Thank you for taking the time to listen to my story. I have to say it was hard to talk about what should happen because I really have no idea what is actually happening there now behind closed door. I wish this would be a positive thing that I have contributed.