Want to keep up to date on Welsh politics? Sign up and get political news sent straight to your inbox Thank you for subscribing We have more newsletters Show me See our privacy notice Invalid Email

There are some things Alun Cairns is adamant about.

He is, he says, doing a good for both his Vale of Glamorgan constituents and for Wales. He says he is right to be backing Brexit.

And – after a lengthy pause – says he would now vote leave if there was a second referendum and he laughs when asked if he's backing Theresa May just to keep his job.

The right decisions were taken not to go ahead with electrifying the line to Swansea, not to proceed with Swansea's tidal lagoon.

But there are other things he's less clear on.

He won't say, for example, whether he voted in a mammoth meeting of the UK Government cabinet to keep no deal on the table despite numerous and repeated warnings about the damage it would do to Wales.

And he can't name publicly the businesses he says will invest in Wales in the event of Brexit.

We met on Thursday morning, just hours after Theresa May got her Brexit extension, and hours after he had been reselected as the candidate for the Vale of Glamorgan at the next General Election.

Pinning down a time for an interview had been particularly tricky, even in the current climate of MPs not knowing their plans from one moment to the next.

But, after more than a week and a pre-meeting, we met in his Whitehall office to discuss his voting record, what he's doing for Wales, and to put those comments about him putting his own job before either constituents or country.

He refused to answer if he kept no deal on the table at a cabinet meeting

He laughed off suggestions he only backed the Prime Minister's deal to keep his cabinet job

He thinks the right decisions were made to stop plans to electrify the railway to Swansea and the tidal lagoon

Says Wylfa could still happen

And that if renaming the Second Severn Crossing was his legacy, he would be happy.

On Brexit

(Image: Getty Images)

Mr Cairns doesn't see his switch from remainer to supporting Brexit and even leaving the EU without a deal as a drastic change.

“I was a remainer. I stood in Queen Street in Cardiff with Dafydd Wigley and other people saying that this was important to us economically, and that's why I was campaigning to remain but I also said that however people voted we would be acting on that instruction.

“People were voting in that election for the first time ever, and if we ignore that instruction that's come from the electorate from all over the UK but in Wales, where people have voted even in stronger numbers than the average across the UK.

“To not act on that referendum I think would be an unprecedented dereliction of duty.”

There's a lengthy pause before he says he would now vote to leave, in a second referendum.

“The public are always right when it comes to elections because they are the ones who are instructing," he says.

There have been tens, of warnings that Wales in particular would be negatively affected by a no deal.

He himself, in 2016, said leave would mean “the very real prospect of recession”.

Asked why leaving was now right for Wales, Mr Cairns says that the economy is better shape and there has been an “employment miracle”.

He said: “The economic predications of a recession, post-no vote referendum didn't happen and therefore the resilience and response has been far more positive than I ever dreamed of and as a result of that it's made me more realistic about our future outside the European Union.

“We certainly haven't experienced the unemployment that other European countries have. We've experienced the employment creation miracle where we have the lowest unemployment since records began.

“Welsh economic activity rates are higher than the UK average, the first time since 1982, we've had the sharpest rise of UK activity rates of any UK nation or region in the last year.

“The way in which the UK economy and Welsh economy has responded, has been quite remarkable.

“That together with inaccurate predictions by the economists, for the outcome of a no-vote has informed me there is a great, bright future outside the EU. I strongly believe we have to act on the instruction of the electorate which was we must leave the EU.”

(Image: Robert Melen)

And yet, he says he has a list – albeit private - of companies which have not come to Wales because of Brexit uncertainty.

“I can point specifically to projects that are not taking place, investment projects, because of the uncertainty.

“The uncertainty in itself is damaging the economy but in spite of that we're still seeing that job creation miracle in the Welsh and UK economies.”

It begs the question then, if those deals are on hold because of uncertainty, would they have signed on the dotted line if the referendum had never have happened?

“It's difficult to say,” he admits.

But when asked to name them, he won't.

“I can't name them specifically because I'm subjected to the privacy of discussions with individual chairman and presidents and chief executives but I do know of specific projects for which investments would take place which would create hundreds of jobs as soon as there is certainty in the marketplace.

“As long as we got access to the European market, which is what the deal provides, then I know of significant sums of investment that will come internationally, and from within the UK that would put us in an even stronger economic position.”

In the Brexit chaos of recent weeks, he's been heavily criticised with claims he is putting his own interests first to save his job and show loyalty to Theresa May rather than backing the interests of his constituents or Wales.

Searching social media for his name before the meeting, those comments were plentiful.

The referendum votes were counted on local authority boundaries – and the Vale voted to remain.

However Mr Cairns says that the local authority boundary (which includes Penarth) is not the same as his constituency boundary.

He doesn't believe the “echo chamber” of social media is a fair representation of views and says he is representing the interests of his constituents.

“I represent all constituents whether they vote to remain or leave. That's my responsibility. I'm not a passionate leave or remainer. I'm a pragmatist and therefore I want to act on the instruction of the country of Wales, of the constituency.

“That's an obligation I really feel heavily.”

(Image: Dan Kitwood/Getty Images) (Image: Stefan Rousseau/PA Wire)

But previous speeches he's made and comments give an impression of a man who was indeed passionate about remain.

“It's probably better to say I'm not ideological. I'm a pragmatist.

“I deal with the facts in front of me, rather than being a purist on one line because I want the best for Wales, for the UK and my constituency”.

We asked if he was one of the cabinet ministers who voted to keep no deal on the table.

“I can't tell you about cabinet discussions because they're private and I'd be breaking the ministerial code if I was to share them, in a way which you're seeking.

“But, I can tell you that keeping no deal on the table has been Government policy for a long period because one, we have to act on the instruction of the referendum. At the very least, it's significant leverage in negotiation because the EU don't want to be in a no deal position either, we saw that last night.

“As a result, keeping no deal on the table has been important, one, either because we're acting on the instruction or secondly, that we need that as leverage to influence the negotiations and there's a wider element. Taking no deal of the table almost says we're prepared to accept any deal and I don't think we should be in that position now.”

“That sounds suspiciously like you did keep it on the table,” I ask.

“Well, cabinet discussions are private, as you know, but keeping no deal on the table was Government policy was and has been Government policy until it was outlawed last week.”

We asked him about the biggest decisions he's taken in his tenure, including not going ahead with the tidal lagoon, electrification of the line to Swansea and the Wylfa plans being paused.

On the tidal lagoon:

“When I was on the Number 10 policy board I was the one who engaged positively with the lagoon company at the beginning. This project wasn't taken seriously in Whitehall until I took Mark Shorrock into Number 10 to meet the special advisers who dealt with energy projects.

“It was included in our manifesto leading up to 2015, that we would seek a way to make it a reality and do what we could to see if it was a viable project or not. I was a strong champion for that project, without a question.

“Of course, every project has to be scrutinised properly.

“You can either be a cheerleader and just hope you should have it or think you should have it anyway. Or you can be a cheerleader and scrutinise it, to see against the competition and if that's good value for money.

“The numbers effectively show that it was three times more expensive than any alternative and I had to judge how best could I use my influence to bring about economic prospects and growth in Swansea and west Wales.

“That would have required a ministerial direction from any minister of any kind of any Government of any colour for a project which is three times as expensive than any alternative and which would ultimately create 21 jobs. There’s no minister of any political persuasion that could support that.”

When asked if the right decision was made, he responded: “Absolutely”.

On electrification of the line from Cardiff to Swansea:

(Image: Ben Birchall/PA Wire)

“Pre-2010 Wales was one of three nations in Europe with Albania and Moldova without a single mile of electrified track. That isn't the case any more.

“We'll have electrification that brings the trains to Cardiff. When you're investing in any project, you then have to look at what time savings you're gaining on the infrastructure.

“Not a minute would be saved by electrifying Cardiff to Swansea so my question is 'what else can I do in order to speed that line up?'

“There was no logic in terms of electrifying in terms of Cardiff to Swansea because the outcome for a passenger wouldn't make any difference at all.

“The Welsh Government are not electrifying the Valleys Line or the Vale of Glamorgan line as they promised to do but I haven't criticised that because I'm focusing on the outcome.

“We do need better trains but we need a cheerleader who is happy to scrutinise as well.

“You've got to think of outcomes and what difference it makes to a passenger, rather than the mode of technology.

“There's no difference to a passenger in Swansea with this technology compared to an electric only technology because the track has limitations of the speeds it can cope with. It's the same as having a Ferrari to go down a country lane. Why would you need it?”

Did he think it was the right decision? “Of course it was.”

“If I lived in Swansea would I want a track improved, or would I want an electrified track? I'd settle for a track improved because that leads to faster train journeys between the two.

“There's a lot of political campaign seeking to capitalise on decisions taken but if people look at the facts, I'm confident if they were ministers they would come to the same decisions.

“In the view it's costs £2.8bn between Paddington and south Wales to electrify the track and it's saving 15 minutes. I can save 14 minutes or 22 minutes in terms of improving speed to Swansea and west Wales with a new railway station so if I lived in Swansea what is the best value for me?

“If I gave a referendum in Swansea 'what do you want, 22 minute savings and a new station that gives you access to some of the most deprived parts of west Wales or electric train that gives you no benefit at all? I'm sure they would absolutely go for the 22 minute savings”.

On the project for a new nuclear power station at Wylfa on Anglesey, which has been shelved by its backer Hitachi:

(Image: North Wales Daily Post)

Mr Cairns believes it could still happen.

“This is the most attractive site in the UK for a new nuclear build and we're bringing forward legislation as a result of this office's work and later this year we'll bring forward earlier than originally scheduled for a new funding model that will allow large infrastructure projects like this to go ahead in order that this legislation is in place so companies like Hitachi can use it in terms of developing Anglesey.

“Naturally there will be challenges and I've said there will be changes of three of four years which is not untypical because Hinkley similarly received long periods of delay at various stages because of these complex, hugely expensive projects naturally carry risk."

Renaming the Second Severn Crossing as the Prince of Wales Bridge:

“The renaming I think was important. It was the right thing to do. I would never have done it unless the First Minister of the Assembly [then Carwyn Jones] would have supported it.

“We had private discussions about that, we exchanged letter in support before this was ever presented to the palace.

“It recognises the contribution that the Prince of Wales has made to Wales and also in bridging two nations together and we're remembering that Wales is half and England is the other.”

Asked if the renaming of the bridge becomes his only major legacy project, he said:

“I'm happy for them to remember that, I think over time people will come to recognise the significance of it, particularly when Prince Charles becomes King.

"But abolishing the tolls though shouldn't be underestimated.

"The reality is, that the increased economic activity that's taking place...it makes me smile some people are criticising the tolls for being abolished because we have people coming over the border we don't want, well is the logic of that is we either have tolls on every crossing between Wales and England or we build a wall instead.

“I don't think those nationalists and Donald Trump had so much in common.”

Do you believe you're doing a good job for the people of Wales as Secretary of State?

“Without a question. Look to the record, compare my record with any other previous secretary of state in terms of the funding settlement; introducing LCO systems; maintaining tolls when they said they wanted to absolish them. They didn't land those big investment projects.

“Clearly, my relationship with the Welsh Government is a positive one. I work closely with Ken Skates, I worked closely with Carwyn Jones and my relationship is always strengthening with Mark Drakeford because I called on the PM to invite the FMs of Scotland and of Wales to our EU exit preparedness committees. Something that hadn't happened previously. Some colleagues questioned that but I felt it was the right thing to do.

“Wales has two Governments, a UK Government and a Welsh Government one works in a devolved space, one in a reserved space and there is no reason why we can't work together for the benefit of Wales and the UK.

"My proudest moment was getting a new financial settlement for Wales so it now gets £120 for every £100 that's spent in England, as well as funding floor added to stop it falling further.

“We shouldn't underestimate the significance of the funding. We don't get the Welsh Government or any committee any more complaining Wales doesn't get its fair share. It may complain Wales doesn't get enough money, but it gets its fair share in the financial envelope of the UK. That's never been recognised properly.

"Of course 70-75% of Wales isn't of my political persuasion so would never give recognition or support to that significant funding settlement.

“In nine months I managed to do that. Labour failed to do in years”.