Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2021 On September 26 2014 07:35 Sn0_Man wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 26 2014 07:05 TheYango wrote:

On September 26 2014 07:04 Sn0_Man wrote:

Thats how it used to work since u had to max bash to get damage.



Now the first level of bash is enough damage and the next levels of it read "miniscule damage increase" so u don't get them early.

No, 4-1-1-1 was the right way to play SB before as well. Anyone who did otherwise had no clue how to play the hero, lol.



1-1-4-1 was only right if you were getting farmed as a safe lane core or playing mid for whatever reason, which are both shitty ways to play the hero anyway because his ass BAT after the nerf makes it impossible for him to go anywhere lategame. No, 4-1-1-1 was the right way to play SB before as well. Anyone who did otherwise had no clue how to play the hero, lol.1-1-4-1 was only right if you were getting farmed as a safe lane core or playing mid for whatever reason, which are both shitty ways to play the hero anyway because his ass BAT after the nerf makes it impossible for him to go anywhere lategame.

I mean, 1-1-4-1 at least u did damage.

4-1-1-1 u didn't do anything at all before. Like, u got a 2s stun basically, thats it. There's no way it was any good. This is from an offlane perspective too since it's the only lane the hero had any application in imo. I mean, 1-1-4-1 at least u did damage.4-1-1-1 u didn't do anything at all before. Like, u got a 2s stun basically, thats it. There's no way it was any good. This is from an offlane perspective too since it's the only lane the hero had any application in imo.



Why is it good now? Why is it good now? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2022 On September 26 2014 07:53 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 26 2014 07:35 Sn0_Man wrote:

On September 26 2014 07:05 TheYango wrote:

On September 26 2014 07:04 Sn0_Man wrote:

Thats how it used to work since u had to max bash to get damage.



Now the first level of bash is enough damage and the next levels of it read "miniscule damage increase" so u don't get them early.

No, 4-1-1-1 was the right way to play SB before as well. Anyone who did otherwise had no clue how to play the hero, lol.



1-1-4-1 was only right if you were getting farmed as a safe lane core or playing mid for whatever reason, which are both shitty ways to play the hero anyway because his ass BAT after the nerf makes it impossible for him to go anywhere lategame. No, 4-1-1-1 was the right way to play SB before as well. Anyone who did otherwise had no clue how to play the hero, lol.1-1-4-1 was only right if you were getting farmed as a safe lane core or playing mid for whatever reason, which are both shitty ways to play the hero anyway because his ass BAT after the nerf makes it impossible for him to go anywhere lategame.

I mean, 1-1-4-1 at least u did damage.

4-1-1-1 u didn't do anything at all before. Like, u got a 2s stun basically, thats it. There's no way it was any good. This is from an offlane perspective too since it's the only lane the hero had any application in imo. I mean, 1-1-4-1 at least u did damage.4-1-1-1 u didn't do anything at all before. Like, u got a 2s stun basically, thats it. There's no way it was any good. This is from an offlane perspective too since it's the only lane the hero had any application in imo.



Why is it good now? Why is it good now?



On September 26 2014 07:40 govie wrote:

FYI datdota says : VP jotm played lesrac +/-5 times as a semicore last month approx: manaboots, wand, urn, euls, bkb are items i see alot in those games on the jotm lesrac. I do still think with the bloodstonechange is interesting and changing his guide has a lower priority then other heros.

Ever tried to farm an aghs as treant or chen, it isnt that easy and still very expensive. Your old treant and chen guides seem still fine



Treant needs Aghs

Chen I'll probably keep as is.



Thanks! I'll update leshrac!~

Treant needs AghsChen I'll probably keep as is.Thanks! I'll update leshrac!~ https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-25 23:10:11 #2023 Initial Thoughts and Changes

Hero Guides Unchanged:

+ Show Spoiler + Ancient Apparition (Lane/Middle)

Anti-Mage

Batrider

Bounty Hunter (Description Change)

Broodmother (Description Change)

Chaos Knight

Dark Seer

Dazzle

Death Prophet

Disruptor

Drow Ranger (Butterfly Description Change)

Earthshaker

Enchantress

Ember Spirit

Enigma

Faceless Void (Chronosphere Description change)

Gyrocopter (Mid build/Max Missile)

Juggernaut

IO

Kunkka

Legion Commander

Lich

Lifestealer

Lion

Lycan (garbage)

Magnus

Naga Siren

Nightstalker

Pugna (Ultimate description change)

Queen of Pain

Shadow Demon

Skywrath Mage (descriptions)

Slark (ultimate description)

Sniper (description)

Spectre

Spirit Breaker (ability description changes)

Techies

Troll Warlord

Tusk (Description changes)

Ursa

Vengeful Spirit

Weaver

Windranger

Wraith King

Keeper (description)





Hero Guides Ability Change:

+ Show Spoiler + Brewmaster (Drunken Brawler pre-6)

Jakiro (Dual Breath before Ice Path?)

Riki (entire ability rebuild + descriptions)

Shadow Shaman (Hex or Shackles pre-6)



Hero Guides Item Build Change:

+ Show Spoiler + Abaddon (Meka/Soul Ring/Vanguard/Crimson Guard??)

Axe (Meka/Soul Ring/Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Bane (Aghanim's Scepter)

Clinkz (orb effect attacks [deso/HOTD])

Clockwerk (Mekansm, Soul Ring, Vanguard, Crimson Guard)

Doom (Aghanim's Scepter/Description change not affecting passives)

Elder Titan (Aghanim's Scepter, Meka/Vanguard/Crimson Guard/Soul Ring/Urn of Shadows)

Bristleback (Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Centaur Warrunner (Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Slardar (Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Lina (Bloodstone?)

Medusa (Butterfly)

Meepo (Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Necrophos (Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Omniknight (Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Nyx Assassin (Blink Dagger)

Outworld Devourer (remove Mekansm)

Phoenix (Aghanim's Scepter - Situational?, Ring of Protection - Starting items)

Puck (Aghanim's Scepter - Extension items)

Pudge (Tranquil Boots/Remove Phase)

Visage (Ring of Protection - starting items)

Razor (Meka/Vanguard/Crimson Guard, Butterfly)

Shadow Fiend (Butterfly)

Luna (Butterfly)

Silencer (Meka, Item Build rework maybe?)

Storm Spirit (Soul Ring)

Sven (Aghanim's Scepter - Situational)

Templar Assassin (MKB to Situational Items)

Tidehunter (Meka/Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Timbersaw (Aghanim's Scepter, Soul Ring)

Tinker (Bloodstone)

Treant Protector (Soul Ring, Aghanim's Scepter, Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Undying (Meka/Vanguard/Crimson Guard, Aghanim's Scepter, description changes)

Venomancer (Alternative core build revolving around blink + Aghanim's?, description change)

Witch Doctor (Soul Ring)

Zeus (Blink Dagger)

Viper (Ring of Protection/Vanguard/Crimson Guard)

Ogre Magi (Soul Ring, Mid guide?)



Hero Guides Complete Revision:

+ Show Spoiler + Alchemist (remove Greevil's Gold item section ability [lvl2], rework Support/Ganker item builds and section to more traditional)

Bloodseeker (lfjbwafhgwhbgpauphrpgfhw, added blademail/euls?) - Do lane guide

Chen (Aghanim's Core, Holy Persuasion Description rewrite, Lane Guide?)

Earth Spirit (Lane Guide, Aghanim's Scepter, Description Change, Item Build)

Huskar (Item rework, ability description rework)

Invoker (ohgnpanpgn) - no idea

Lone Druid (bear rework holy shit)

Mirana (Butterfly)

Leshrac (early Soul Ring/Bloodstone - Ability Pulse Nova check)

Phantom Lancer (wafwhn;gw)

Nature's Prophet (Butterfly, Remove Item Build Sections + Descriptions)

Warlock (Mid guide)

Beastmaster (Ancients pulling remove, Meka/Soul Ring/Vanguard/Crimson Guard + Mid guide lvl 2 aura then max creeps, Medallion Situational or Early Game)





Items to consider (when editing guides):

+ Show Spoiler + Crimson Guard

Vanguard

Cloak/Hood of Defiance/Pipe of Insight (additive effects)

Bloodstone

Blink Dagger

Aghanim's Scepter

Mekansm (replace/remove)

Ring of Protection (replace/remove)

Butterfly (change description)

Bottle (dual runes)



I'll updating this section throughout the day [it's 6:30 AM here so I got tons of time to work]





Changes not final and subject to change pre and post-patch release



Feedback severely appreciated. I will be working on this all day.



- 6:00-9:00 Draft done

- 9:00-10:00 Formatting/Update done (Excel Sheet, Front Page, Patch Notes)

- 10:00-3:00 Breakfast/Lunch, Gathering opinions/feedback/ideas/advice

- Day 2: 6:00 to 10:00 Breakfast, Draft Initial Title Changes to Unchanged Hero Guides

- Day 2: 10:00 to 3:00 Hero, Item and Build Changes

- Day 3: 11:00 to 2:00 Publishing and Minor Changes





New Colour for 6.82 picked out (blue) https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-25 23:51:14 #2026 On September 26 2014 07:35 Sn0_Man wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 26 2014 07:05 TheYango wrote:

On September 26 2014 07:04 Sn0_Man wrote:

Thats how it used to work since u had to max bash to get damage.



Now the first level of bash is enough damage and the next levels of it read "miniscule damage increase" so u don't get them early.

No, 4-1-1-1 was the right way to play SB before as well. Anyone who did otherwise had no clue how to play the hero, lol.



1-1-4-1 was only right if you were getting farmed as a safe lane core or playing mid for whatever reason, which are both shitty ways to play the hero anyway because his ass BAT after the nerf makes it impossible for him to go anywhere lategame. No, 4-1-1-1 was the right way to play SB before as well. Anyone who did otherwise had no clue how to play the hero, lol.1-1-4-1 was only right if you were getting farmed as a safe lane core or playing mid for whatever reason, which are both shitty ways to play the hero anyway because his ass BAT after the nerf makes it impossible for him to go anywhere lategame.

I mean, 1-1-4-1 at least u did damage.

4-1-1-1 u didn't do anything at all before. Like, u got a 2s stun basically, thats it. There's no way it was any good. This is from an offlane perspective too since it's the only lane the hero had any application in imo. I mean, 1-1-4-1 at least u did damage.4-1-1-1 u didn't do anything at all before. Like, u got a 2s stun basically, thats it. There's no way it was any good. This is from an offlane perspective too since it's the only lane the hero had any application in imo.

4-1-1-1 ganked laning phase way better, because your combo damage is largely inconsequential compared to your charge speed for laning phase ganks (especially pre-6 when you don't have Ulti to get a 2nd Bash, and can't reliably Bash with right-clicks cuz your attack speed isn't high enough with your shit BAT). Most kills in mid or safe lane have enough damage regardless of your Bash rank, it's just a matter of getting a better initiation position because of how much faster your charge speed is--which is what Charge ranks are all about anyway. The biggest meaningful impact from leveling Charge isn't the stun duration, it's that 150 higher Charge MS makes a big difference in how your opponents can react to Charge ganks.



If you have godly luck and always got a 2nd autoattack Bash, then sure it's fine, but level 3 and 5 ganks are way better with 2-0-1 or 3-1-1 because faster charge MS makes a bigger difference than the 30-ish damage increase on a single Bash. 1-1-3 looks a lot better past 6, but IMO offlane SB has to look to gank way before then because the only reason he gets anything on off-lane is his godly base stats--after like level 3-4 it gets hard because supports get rank 2 nukes so your base stats don't save you anymore.



I actually played 1-1-3 for the longest time until I saw PIS and 820 play 3-1-1 SB and tried it myself, and never went back. The charge MS makes a difference that's really hard to quantify if you're just running the numbers but feels really meaningful when you actually play it. 4-1-1-1 ganked laning phase way better, because your combo damage is largely inconsequential compared to your charge speed for laning phase ganks (especially pre-6 when you don't have Ulti to get a 2nd Bash, and can't reliably Bash with right-clicks cuz your attack speed isn't high enough with your shit BAT). Most kills in mid or safe lane have enough damage regardless of your Bash rank, it's just a matter of getting a better initiation position because of how much faster your charge speed is--which is what Charge ranks are all about anyway. The biggest meaningful impact from leveling Charge isn't the stun duration, it's that 150 higher Charge MS makes a big difference in how your opponents can react to Charge ganks.If you have godly luck and always got a 2nd autoattack Bash, then sure it's fine, but level 3 and 5 ganks are way better with 2-0-1 or 3-1-1 because faster charge MS makes a bigger difference than the 30-ish damage increase on a single Bash. 1-1-3 looks a lot better past 6, but IMO offlane SB has to look to gank way before then because the only reason he gets anything on off-lane is his godly base stats--after like level 3-4 it gets hard because supports get rank 2 nukes so your base stats don't save you anymore.I actually played 1-1-3 for the longest time until I saw PIS and 820 play 3-1-1 SB and tried it myself, and never went back. The charge MS makes a difference that's really hard to quantify if you're just running the numbers but feels really meaningful when you actually play it. Moderator

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 01:29:02 #2027 All guides published.



Elder Titan (Lane): Removed Soul Ring and Added Bottle to Core Items



Treant Protector: Added Aghanim's to Core Items



Bloodseeker (Middle): New Skill Build: Q, W, W, E, W, R, W, Q, Q, Q R, W, W, W (1. Blood Rite 2. Bloodrage 3. Thirst)

One in Q to help with last-hitting

Bottle for Bloodseeker

Starting Items remain the same



Phantom Lancer (Lane): New Skill Build: Q, E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E



Lone Druid:

Added Crimson Guard to Extension Bear Items

Added Necromonicon to Extension Bear Items

Added Necromonicon to Extension Druid Items

Added Mask of Madness to Extension Bear Items

Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Bear Items

Added Crimson Guard to Situational Items

Added Mjollnir to Extension Bear Items

Moved Radiance to Situational Items

Removed Hand of Midas

Removed Assault Cuirass

Removed Monkey King Bar https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

tehh4ck3r Profile Joined August 2013 Magrathea 5918 Posts #2028 MoM and double necro on spirit bear is probably pretty legit



I'll give LD a whirl in a pub right now and see how it works Administrator In those days, spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2029 On September 26 2014 09:31 tehh4ck3r wrote:

MoM and double necro on spirit bear is probably pretty legit



I'll give LD a whirl in a pub right now and see how it works



Thanks! I'll do Phantom Lancer right now! Thanks! I'll do Phantom Lancer right now! https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

tehh4ck3r Profile Joined August 2013 Magrathea 5918 Posts #2030 I can't really judge the build accurately from the game I played because there was an early abandon but MoM bear shits on towers Administrator In those days, spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts #2031 Do you think jungling Phantom Lancer is possible now if we get Doppelganger first? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 01:15:58 #2032 On September 26 2014 10:00 tehh4ck3r wrote:

I can't really judge the build accurately from the game I played because there was an early abandon but MoM bear shits on towers



I think MoM can be situationally good, but Necro3: the stats are lost. I'll add MoM, Medallion, Abyssal Blade, Satanic also good. I think MoM can be situationally good, but Necro3: the stats are lost. I'll add MoM, Medallion, Abyssal Blade, Satanic also good. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 02:13:38 #2033 Feedback and criticism really needed as some of these I'm slightly unsure. I'm also very tired (it's 4AM). So I'll be back tomorrow to make fixes and repairs + the new guides.



Links have been added to each hero in the patch notes for easy access. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

OmegaPython Profile Joined September 2014 Australia 8 Posts #2034 Phantom Lancer should definately max Phantom Rush over Doppelganger. All that scales on Doppelganger is the cooldown, and you don't need to cast it that often, especially early.

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 06:08:36 #2035 On September 26 2014 14:45 OmegaPython wrote:

Phantom Lancer should definately max Phantom Rush over Doppelganger. All that scales on Doppelganger is the cooldown, and you don't need to cast it that often, especially early.



Yeah, I was looking at that.



10 second cooldown is pretty good, but Phantom Rush also seems situationally better. What do you think?



I reversed them, so Phantom Rush is maxed.



Also added Medallion to Situational Items, updated Yeah, I was looking at that.10 second cooldown is pretty good, but Phantom Rush also seems situationally better. What do you think?I reversed them, so Phantom Rush is maxed.Also added Medallion to Situational Items, updated https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 06:29:26 #2036 What do you guys think of adding a tab for ganking Sven?



Bottle -> Tranquils -> Drums -> Medallion -> Aghs

Max Q -> E



Too gimmicky? https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 06:32:36 #2037 Roaming Sven still gets Treads. There's not really a need for Tranquils since War Cry already gives you MS advantage over most heroes and you're gated way more by mana early game than by HP because of how ridiculously high Storm Bolt mana is. Treads swap gives you some leeway with mana, and is much easier to transition into farming midgame compared to Tranquils.



Item progression after Boots is situational but doesn't deviate that hard from normal Sven. Medallion is situational and mediocre unless your team has a specific need for -armor. Moderator

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 06:33:35 #2038 On September 26 2014 15:31 TheYango wrote:

Roaming Sven still gets Treads. There's not really a need for Tranquils since War Cry already gives you MS advantage over most heroes and you're gated way more by mana early game than by HP because of how ridiculously high Storm Bolt mana is.



Item progression after Boots is situational but doesn't deviate that hard from normal Sven. Medallion is situational and mediocre unless your team has a specific need for -armor.



Advice on Bloodseeker mid and Leshrac getting lvl 6 ult?



I like having BS go mid and max Blood Rite into Thirst with the first point in Blood Rage to survive in lane. I like getting Bottle on him and then just going Phase -> Basher -> BKB, but he may be played a bit differently now.



I'll add a tab for roaming Sven then. Advice on Bloodseeker mid and Leshrac getting lvl 6 ult?I like having BS go mid and max Blood Rite into Thirst with the first point in Blood Rage to survive in lane. I like getting Bottle on him and then just going Phase -> Basher -> BKB, but he may be played a bit differently now.I'll add a tab for roaming Sven then. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

TheYango Profile Joined September 2008 United States 10886 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 06:35:11 #2039



Lesh ult at 6 is fine.



I don't see a point in running BS mid anymore when the strength of the new Bloodrage is largely on how well it combos with other heroes.Lesh ult at 6 is fine. On September 26 2014 15:32 Torte de Lini wrote:

I like having BS go mid and max Blood Rite into Thirst with the first point in Blood Rage to survive in lane. I like getting Bottle on him and then just going Phase -> Basher -> BKB, but he may be played a bit differently now.



Bottle-Crow max Blood Rite BS seems appealing until you realize how abysmal the CD is. It's really prohibitive to try and play it like other Bottle-Crow mids, especially since the damage values are scaled based on Pure damage's advantage against heroes (creeps have no magic resistance, so mediocre amounts of pure damage is inferior to higher Magic or Physical damage for the purposes of clearing creeps in lane). Bottle-Crow max Blood Rite BS seems appealing until you realize how abysmal the CD is. It's really prohibitive to try and play it like other Bottle-Crow mids, especially since the damage values are scaled based on Pure damage's advantage against heroes (creeps have no magic resistance, so mediocre amounts of pure damage is inferior to higher Magic or Physical damage for the purposes of clearing creeps in lane). Moderator

Torte de Lini Profile Joined September 2010 Germany 7680 Posts Last Edited: 2014-09-26 06:34:49 #2040 On September 26 2014 15:33 TheYango wrote:

I don't see a point in running BS mid anymore when the strength of the new Bloodrage is largely on how well it combos with other heroes.



Lesh ult at 6 is fine.



It's still a viable way so I can't, unfortunately, abandon the guide (especially with how many subscribers it has).



When I create the lane version, I was thinking of maxing Bloodrage and Thirst with W getting one point since it is decent at level 1 for silence. It's still a viable way so I can't, unfortunately, abandon the guide (especially with how many subscribers it has).When I create the lane version, I was thinking of maxing Bloodrage and Thirst with W getting one point since it is decent at level 1 for silence. https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Prev 1 100 101 102 103 104 371 Next