One of the big arguments for basic income is that it increases people's freedom. It sounds like what we’re seeing in Australia, both with the cashless debit card and with welfare policy in relation to First Nations people more broadly, is actually the opposite – a radical decrease in what is already constrained freedom.

Mm-hmm. A lot of First Nations people say that this has been a long story. Some of the people that spoke to me about the cashless debit card in Kimberley call it the white card, although it’s actually grey. They called it that because, for them, it's a symbol of how settler colonial intervention continues. People said to me, "It's like going back to the ration days." It’s a strange situation. Australian society is starting to recognise some of the historical violence, but cannot see how that continues today with something like the cashless debit card.

Why do you think that basic income would be different when it comes to supporting First Nations people?

Basic income would challenge the Australian settler state’s obsession with work. Its unconditional element would completely revolutionise the deeply held belief that you've got to do something for the money. In its place, a basic income would introduce the idea of a rightful share. A dividend for all people.

For First Nations people I think this is a very important idea. As I said before, sovereignty was never ceded, and there's an ongoing battle for that sovereignty to be honoured. Unconditional basic income has an emancipatory element that acknowledges rather than rejects self-determination, so it could be a small step in the right direction. That said, only First Nations people themselves could make that decision.

So in your view basic income has the potential to be more emancipatory than current welfare policy. However, you’d argue that any attempt to advocate for one must include the participation of First Nations people, so that it is not yet another top down imposition on this population.

That would be absolutely key.

That said, there was a period in the 1970s where there was a programme called the Community Development Employment Projects (CDEP). This was implemented in regional and remote parts of the country, and it involved giving First Nations people and community organisations a lump sum for doing work. What exactly work entailed was defined very, very broadly and in some places the programme was only loosely monitored. The result was that everyone ended up getting the payment regardless of whether they turned up for work. My colleague John Altman and I have written about this programme as a sort of basic income.

The CDEP was a very powerful and important social policy in some of these remote communities, where there was no or only a very limited labour market to speak of, because it provided an economic base. Poverty went through the roof in these communities when the programme was replaced with these more punitive, work for the doll schemes. People do talk about those CDEP days as being really important, and there's memory and recognition there of the importance of economic security.

So, there are some little glimmers of possibility and hope that programmes can be done well in Australia, despite its terrible history. Moving forward though, it has to be about honouring people's sovereignty.