101111



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Hero MemberActivity: 525Merit: 500 Re: When quoting small amounts of bitcoin, how do you call 100 satoshis? October 19, 2014, 02:58:43 AM #131 Quote from: R2D221 on October 19, 2014, 02:15:14 AM Quote from: 101111 on October 19, 2014, 02:11:32 AM It doesn't help the SI purists who insist we all do mental arithmetic to 8 decimal places, but I am sure their days are 'numbered'.



The fact that the whole world except the US (and a few other countries) use the SI system surely means their days are numbered. Totally. Like, why aren't we all reversing to the Imperial system right now?

The fact that the whole world except the US (and a few other countries) use the SI system surely means their days are numbered. Totally. Like, why aren't we all reversing to the Imperial system right now?



In the bitcoin context, the 'SI purists" insist on the decimal point staying where it is, forcing everyone to deal with currency to 8 decimal places, making daily mental arithmetic impractical.



The 'bits' advocates want the decimal place moved 6 places right to a more standardised currency convention and format, it works better with financial software, and more importantly it better suits how our brains have evolved in dealing with 'counting numbers', it helps bridge bitcoins usability chasm. Having moved the decimal place, SI can operate as per normal. It's still a decimal system. It still has a decimal place.



Not only that but behind the user-interface level, the 'SI purists' can talk to each other in micro or milli all day long if they wish, so they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.







You have no idea of what we are talking about. Moving the decimal point is not the same as 'reversing' to an imperial system. Surely that's a very elementary concept?In the bitcoin context, the 'SI purists" insist on the decimal point staying where it is, forcing everyone to deal with currency to 8 decimal places, making daily mental arithmetic impractical.The 'bits' advocates want the decimal place moved 6 places right to a more standardised currency convention and format, it works better with financial software, and more importantly it better suits how our brains have evolved in dealing with 'counting numbers', it helps bridge bitcoins usability chasm. Having moved the decimal place, SI can operate as per normal. It's still a decimal system. It still has a decimal place.Not only that but behind the user-interface level, the 'SI purists' can talk to each other in micro or milli all day long if they wish, so they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

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MemberActivity: 69Merit: 10 Re: When quoting small amounts of bitcoin, how do you call 100 satoshis? October 19, 2014, 05:38:14 AM #132 Quote from: udet4food on October 18, 2014, 05:33:52 PM 100 satoshi might be confusing for newbies, best is 0. 000 001 BTC



I will provide a tool-tip that quotes the exact amount in BTC, for clarity.



However, it will certainly not be the main option as it is too inconvenient to pronounce ("oh point oh oh oh oh...") and carries the unwanted implication of being just a small fraction of something. People don't like to have small fractions of something.



Quote from: 101111 on October 19, 2014, 02:58:43 AM You have no idea of what we are talking about. Moving the decimal point is not the same as 'reversing' to an imperial system. Surely that's a very elementary concept?



In the bitcoin context, the 'SI purists" insist on the decimal point staying where it is, forcing everyone to deal with currency to 8 decimal places, making daily mental arithmetic impractical.



The 'bits' advocates want the decimal place moved 6 places right to a more standardised currency convention and format, it works better with financial software, and more importantly it better suits how our brains have evolved in dealing with 'counting numbers' , it helps bridge bitcoins usability chasm. Having moved the decimal place, SI can operate as per normal. It's still a decimal system. It still has a decimal place.



Not only that but behind the user-interface level, the 'SI purists' can talk to each other in micro or milli all day long if they wish, so they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.



You have a very good point about how using bits is better than using whole bitcoins or SI prefixes.

I especially agree with the green part. Many people underestimate the importance of these subconscious effects. The human brain prefers to use (positive) integers.



However, can you explain how using bits is superior to using sats? That's the part that I don't understand. I will provide a tool-tip that quotes the exact amount in BTC, for clarity.However, it will certainly not be the main option as it is too inconvenient to pronounce ("") and carries the unwanted implication of being just a small fraction of something. People don't like to have small fractions of something.You have a very good point about how using bits is better than using whole bitcoins or SI prefixes.I especially agree with thepart. Many people underestimate the importance of these subconscious effects. The human brain prefers to use (positive) integers.However, can you explain how using bits is superior to using sats? That's the part that I don't understand.

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Hero MemberActivity: 658Merit: 500 Re: When quoting small amounts of bitcoin, how do you call 100 satoshis? October 19, 2014, 06:18:16 AM #133 Quote from: 101111 on October 19, 2014, 02:58:43 AM In the bitcoin context, the 'SI purists" insist on the decimal point staying where it is, forcing everyone to deal with currency to 8 decimal places, making daily mental arithmetic impractical.



The 'bits' advocates want the decimal place moved 6 places right to a more standardised currency convention and format, it works better with financial software, and more importantly it better suits how our brains have evolved in dealing with 'counting numbers', it helps bridge bitcoins usability chasm. Having moved the decimal place, SI can operate as per normal. It's still a decimal system. It still has a decimal place.



Not only that but behind the user-interface level, the 'SI purists' can talk to each other in micro or milli all day long if they wish, so they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.



You do realize that if I talk about 100 mBTC I've effectively MOVED the decimal place, right? Do you really think I would pronounce this Oh point oh oh oh one bitcoins when it clearly can be read One hundred mikes? (using mike as an abbreviation because obviously the word microbitcoins is too long) You do realize that if I talk about 100 mBTC I've effectively MOVED the decimal place, right? Do you really think I would pronounce this Oh point oh oh oh one bitcoins when it clearly can be read One hundred mikes? (using mike as an abbreviation because obviously the word microbitcoins is too long) An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.

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MemberActivity: 69Merit: 10 Re: When quoting small amounts of bitcoin, how do you call 100 satoshis? October 19, 2014, 07:25:30 AM #134 Quote from: R2D221 on October 19, 2014, 06:18:16 AM You do realize that if I talk about 100 mBTC µBTC I've effectively MOVED the decimal place, right? Do you really think I would pronounce this Oh point oh oh oh one bitcoins when it clearly can be read One hundred mikes? (using mike as an abbreviation because obviously the word microbitcoins is too long)



Fixed that for you.



To understand the meaning of "µBTC" one has to understand the meaning of "BTC" first.

However, the whole point of moving the decimal (as far as I understand it) is about finding a setup that allows us to gradually phase out the unit "BTC" entirely. The eventual outcome would be that the term "bitcoin" refers to the currency system as a whole, not a unit.



The underlying problem is that µBTC is  and always will be  a subunit, not the base unit. I can understand that many people want to change the base unit, as it is too large. But I cannot understand why the new base unit should be 100 SAT instead of 1 SAT. Fixed that for you.To understand the meaning of "µBTC" one has to understand the meaning of "BTC" first.However, the whole point of moving the decimal (as far as I understand it) is about finding a setup that allows us to gradually phase out the unit "BTC" entirely. The eventual outcome would be that the term "bitcoin" refers to the currency system as a whole, not a unit.The underlying problem is that µBTC is  and always will be  a subunit, not the base unit. I can understand that many people want to change the base unit, as it is too large. But I cannot understand why the new base unit should be 100 SAT instead of 1 SAT.

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Full MemberActivity: 139Merit: 100 Re: When quoting small amounts of bitcoin, how do you call 100 satoshis? October 19, 2014, 07:53:04 PM #135 Anyhoo, I will sum up the future of Bitcoin. For any of you early adopters out there, consider this your cheat sheet to know where the future of Bitcoin develops:



* "Bitcoin" is still the technology.



* 1 bit will be the "base unit".



* the smallest unit will be "1 bit cent", also known as "1 satoshi" to honor Satoshi Nakamoto. (sort of like 0.01 USD is referred to as a "1 cent", and also its proper name "1 penny", respectively)



* Some people will understand that "1 bitcoin = very rich". The term "Bitcoinaire" may even come up.



* XBT is the abbreviation -- it fits beautifully with "Bitcoin" and "bits", even though that wouldn't be intellectually 100% correct.



* Exchanges, traders, accountants, etc. will understand the price of Bitcoin as "$400 / XBT"



* Laymen will look at the price of Bitcoin as "2500 bits / dollar" (US Dollar) ... bookkeepers and accountants will be familiar with this as well, if necessary.



In response to KingOfTrolls:

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, it's hard for your average user, and your average adopter, to understand what a "SAT" is, especially in the world of Bitcoin. If you go ahead and tell them, "oh, it's short for Satoshi! The guy who worked a lot on Bitcoin in the beginning had the first name Satoshi. He's anonymous and stuff. But don't ask about that".



...well, that's just adding more confusion. (Even if you make the explanation shorter). I'm not saying this because it is what I believe, I am saying it because it is the reactions and feelings of the layman (and even very technically-minded people).



Will newbies and average users understand? Yes.



Will they remember that "1 sat" is the base unit for Bitcoin? As most people forgot things very quickly, my *intentional* interactions with the layman show that they just don't remember "Satoshi" or "Sat". They entirely remember "bits". Things I have heard include:



"Oh ya... a 'bit', right?"



"Um, it was 1 'yoshi' right?" (to which I reply: "no, 1 SA-toshi") https://WallofCoins.com * A peer-to-peer market for buying and selling decentralized, Digital Currencies. Intelligent, trustworthy, and secure.

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Hero MemberActivity: 525Merit: 500 Re: When quoting small amounts of bitcoin, how do you call 100 satoshis? October 20, 2014, 02:08:56 AM #136 Quote from: R2D221 on October 19, 2014, 06:18:16 AM Quote from: 101111 on October 19, 2014, 02:58:43 AM In the bitcoin context, the 'SI purists" insist on the decimal point staying where it is, forcing everyone to deal with currency to 8 decimal places, making daily mental arithmetic impractical.



The 'bits' advocates want the decimal place moved 6 places right to a more standardised currency convention and format, it works better with financial software, and more importantly it better suits how our brains have evolved in dealing with 'counting numbers', it helps bridge bitcoins usability chasm. Having moved the decimal place, SI can operate as per normal. It's still a decimal system. It still has a decimal place.



Not only that but behind the user-interface level, the 'SI purists' can talk to each other in micro or milli all day long if they wish, so they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.



You do realize that if I talk about 100 mBTC I've effectively MOVED the decimal place, right? Do you really think I would pronounce this Oh point oh oh oh one bitcoins when it clearly can be read One hundred mikes? (using mike as an abbreviation because obviously the word microbitcoins is too long)

You do realize that if I talk about 100 mBTC I've effectively MOVED the decimal place, right? Do you really think I would pronounce this Oh point oh oh oh one bitcoins when it clearly can be read One hundred mikes? (using mike as an abbreviation because obviously the word microbitcoins is too long) If you have recovered from shooting yourself in the foot yet again, perhaps you can address my other points. Is there anything there you can agree with?