ronda mcintyre Good morning, everybody. I hope you had a great spring break. We are starting a new book today, and it is called “Same Sun Here” by Silas House and Neela Vaswani. I think you’re really going to like it. It’s written as a series of letters between two characters. And I’m going to go ahead and get started. “Dear River. I cannot tell from your name if you’re a boy or a girl. So I’ll just write to you like you’re a human being.”

[music]

ronda mcintyre “You are the first American I know whose name means something, so I think maybe you’re not from this country. My brother says you are. He says all people in Kentucky are Americans — not like in New York City, where most people are from everywhere in the world.”

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

ronda mcintyre “My brother is 17 years old. He has a big smile and strong legs because he’s a bike messenger.”

michael barbaro

Today —

ronda mcintyre “All the girls love him, which makes him very conceited.”

michael barbaro

— as the school year comes to a close, a conversation with Ronda McIntyre, a fifth grade teacher in Ohio, about the struggle to educate from afar. It’s Friday, June 12.

ronda mcintyre

Hey.

michael barbaro

Hi there.

ronda mcintyre

(LAUGHS)

michael barbaro

So I feel like I should be calling you “Mrs. McIntyre.”

ronda mcintyre

Actually, no. We have an informal philosophy at our school, and I have always been called “Ronda.”

michael barbaro

Really?

ronda mcintyre

The kids call me Ronda. So when somebody calls me “Mrs. McIntyre,” it makes me feel really old.

[laughter]

ronda mcintyre

So no, “Ronda” perfect.

michael barbaro

OK. OK, this is very progressive, not at all like when I was a student. But I will participate.

ronda mcintyre

Great.

michael barbaro

So I wonder if you can tell me about the school where you’re teaching now.

ronda mcintyre

So the name of my school is Indianola Informal K-8. And it’s in Columbus, Ohio.

michael barbaro

Mm-hm.

ronda mcintyre

We are in a neighborhood in Columbus called Clintonville. But we draw from every corner of the city. We’re 100 percent lottery.

michael barbaro

Meaning, literally, people get their names pulled out of a hat, or it’s by merit?

ronda mcintyre

They do. I mean, now it’s by computer. And I teach fourth or fifth grade.

michael barbaro

So I wonder if you could describe your classroom.

ronda mcintyre

My classroom is — it’s a pretty typical informal classroom. We have a little library nook area, a bookshelf surrounding it, and pillows. We’ve got posters hanging around the room and student work displayed.

michael barbaro

Mm-hm.

ronda mcintyre

And the hub of the classroom is our rug space. The rug space is where we meet as a group for instruction. Kids bring their materials to the rug. We do not have desks.

michael barbaro

Wow, so you teach the kids for a lot of the day, basically, on a rug seated around you?

ronda mcintyre

Yeah, the rug is the center. They come to the rug for the lesson, and then they often return to tables in table groups or in other spaces around the room. It’s important to me because of the proximity. I can look into their eyes. I mean, I can do classroom management easier when they’re on the rug, but I can also connect with them in a more personable way than I can if I’m standing and they’re all seated around the room. And I think that it helps their focus and their attention span as well.

michael barbaro

Do you have anything in your classroom, whether it’s an object or a sign, something that kids really love or are attached to?

ronda mcintyre

Well, something that really is — has resonated with this group is something that I have called the “calming caddy.” And it’s a literal caddy with a handle that is large enough to hold many objects — little stuffed animals, smooth river stones, scented lotion, a battery-operated candle.

michael barbaro

Wow.

ronda mcintyre

And the idea being you pick it up, you find a spot in the room, you try and deal with your powerful emotions that are creating you distraction, or maybe driving you to anger. Kids, they come in from recess. There’s been a friend issue. They’re not over it. And they might come in and grab the calming caddy and try and get over it. We share a lot in my classroom, and kids would talk about when a relative died, or something happening in their family. And it got to the point where there were kids that would zero in on someone that was — you could tell they were struggling. They were having a hard time with something. And they would walk the calming caddy over to someone.

michael barbaro

They knew how to use it.

ronda mcintyre

They did. And there are some people that just took it upon themselves to be a helper in that way.

michael barbaro

And does it work?

ronda mcintyre

You know what? It does work. I mean, it’s not 100 percent, but it does work.

michael barbaro

Given everything you’ve just described and how powerfully intimate a lot of these interactions are, I have to imagine that it was very alarming to you, and disruptive, to suddenly have to go from regular teaching to the kind of remote teaching of this pandemic.

ronda mcintyre

Very much so, because this is a group — and not just socially and emotionally, but academically, they needed a lot of support. And I have seen the results of not being able to be there and check in with the kids I know I need to check in with to make sure you’re getting this done, that done, and the other thing. I mean, it’s just tragic. I mean, it’s tragic what’s not happened since this not being in a physical school building happened.

michael barbaro

I wonder if you could take me through that whole process, starting with when you first realized that the school was going to be sending kids home.

ronda mcintyre

Well, initially, we learned on Thursday, March 12, that school would be closing for three weeks and that our district’s last day would be Friday. We had 24 hours’ notice, so we were making it up as we went along, basically. It was each teacher, each school was making their plan for those first three weeks. So I said, everybody, go to the bookshelves and take some books. And we tried to send them home with their math books. We were not operating with any kind of, this is the plan. It was each teacher, each school was making their plan for those first three weeks.

michael barbaro

So there really was no formal structure for distance learning, for virtual classrooms?

ronda mcintyre

No, there wasn’t. I think it blindsided everyone.

michael barbaro

What were the first couple of days and weeks of trying to teach remotely, once you realized that this was not going to be an extended spring break, this was going to be a kind of new reality? What did that look like for you?

ronda mcintyre

So the main issue was we were trying to develop curriculum. We were trying to develop a routine. And it became clear that teaching saying, Hey, everybody, be in front of your computer at 11 o’clock for this, that, or the other thing, was not going to work.

michael barbaro

What do you mean?

ronda mcintyre

I mean I was interacting with parents by email. I was interacting with parents via a phone app that I have.

michael barbaro

Mm-hm.

ronda mcintyre

And I was getting some feedback that, “I’m working 14 hours a day now, and I’m not able to oversee.” Or, “So and so is sharing a device with their sibling.” I mean, just these sorts of things. So it was not going to be a situation where you could teach online.

michael barbaro

Once you’ve done your best to try to get as many students as possible on a device — and it sounds like not all of them could — how many students are actually there on the other end, as best you can tell, in these early days participating?

ronda mcintyre

Very few. So in the early days, I would say maybe six to eight.

michael barbaro

Wow.

ronda mcintyre

Yeah.

michael barbaro

Out of 25?

ronda mcintyre

Out of 25, yeah.

michael barbaro

Hmm.

ronda mcintyre

And then I started hearing from parents about how, “My child doesn’t have any motivation. They have nothing to look forward to.” I totally get this.

michael barbaro

Mm.

ronda mcintyre

That’s how I started, then, talking on the phone with people weekly. And one of the students I checked in with was Axel.

ronda mcintyre Hi, Axel. axel Hi.

ronda mcintyre

Axel is a really hard worker, but very reserved, shy, oftentimes won’t ask a question if he has one.

ronda mcintyre Hey, buddy, how you doing, man? It’s the home stretch. axel I don’t like it.

ronda mcintyre

His mother was working so hard to manage four boys, one in high school, two identical twins in eighth grade, and Axel in fifth grade, while she was furloughed as a massage therapist.

michael barbaro

Wow.

ronda mcintyre

And she reached out to me and she said, “I am completely overwhelmed, and so is Axel.”

axel's mother And he’ll go through the first part of it, and he’ll be like, OK, OK, I’ve got it. I’ve got it. And then he does the test, and the test is harder than the material. ronda mcintyre It is. axel's mother And — axel Not just like a little bit harder, like 50 times harder. axel's mother Yeah, and — axel And whenever I click on the answer, it says, “Nope!”

ronda mcintyre

He hated the platform that the district was using called i-Ready. It gives you this test, and then, if you don’t earn the passing score, it says, “Try again!” Well, “try again” is pretty demoralizing. And he had had it. Like, he was done.

ronda mcintyre I mean, the computer doesn’t really know you as a person, as a student. And you are just so good at giving your best effort, Axel. And do you think if you did half the lesson, that you could give it better focus? axel No because I hate it.

ronda mcintyre

And so we talked about it, and I told him that, you know, I have been hearing this from other kids too. And it sounds like you’re really, really struggling, so let’s just forget i-Ready.

michael barbaro

So you just erased it from his curriculum?

ronda mcintyre

Yes. I could tell that he needed something that was going to seem more applicable to real life. And we were studying economics.

ronda mcintyre Have you taken a look at any of the economics lessons? axel No. ronda mcintyre Some of them are kind of fun. One of them is about shopping for groceries. axel What I want to buy is probably going to be Skittles. ronda mcintyre (LAUGHS)

ronda mcintyre

So we struck a bargain.

ronda mcintyre OK, so Axel, you feel OK about looking at the economics? It’s under social studies. axel OK.

ronda mcintyre

And he did those things.

ronda mcintyre Well, it’s always good to hear your voice, and it’s good to see you on the Zoom meeting. axel Yeah. axel's mother Thank you. It was great to talk to you.

ronda mcintyre

And I did that with several kids. And it just needed to happen. I mean, I learned to back off, and I started assigning less. And I could just tell that they needed a lot of grace and that the academics had to be secondary. I mean, I always felt that. But when you have a parent basically telling you, look, this is —

michael barbaro

I’m overwhelmed.

ronda mcintyre

— this is crushing my child. This is crushing their spirit, and I’m so overwhelmed. It just really informed me.

michael barbaro

Mm-hm.

ronda mcintyre

I mean, because I have not felt like I’ve been able to be there for everyone in the way that they need. And I always questioned, am I doing enough? I mean, am I doing enough?

[music]

ronda mcintyre

I mean, I think that’s a teacher’s existential dilemma —

michael barbaro

(LAUGHS)

ronda mcintyre

— always, but this has taken it to a whole new level.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Ronda, have you been back to your classroom since the school closed because of the pandemic?

ronda mcintyre

Yes. And it was really startling.

ronda mcintyre It’s Tuesday, May 19. I’m heading into my classroom because I opened my email first thing in the morning, and I saw an email that talked about getting our students’ belongings out of our classrooms and out of their lockers and closing down our classrooms — which is a very lengthy process — by this Friday. So as I look around my room, the things that strike me are just the mundane, ordinary things. When I think about, how are we going to do this as a class again? I have this lovely, brand new rug. The rug even has multicolored circles which can actually be a spot for kids to sit. Those circles are about an inch apart. That is going to need to change. I’m just getting a little — (SIGHS) — emotional thinking about all the changes. I look at my tables. I have six of them. I have a class of 25 this year. If we’re going to socially distance in classrooms, the only way I can see this working is one at each end. That’s 12 kids. We have a caddy on every table. It has markers. It has colored pencils. It has glue sticks. Because we have communal supplies. One of the things I have to pack today is the math area. Pattern blocks, fraction kits, how — we can’t share them anymore. I have to find a way for everyone to have their own kit, but I don’t have enough for everyone to have their own kit. This is a city school district. We have to share things. Oh, my gosh. The calming caddy. This is a real loss, not being able to use things like this.

[music]

ronda mcintyre I’ve been reading that, as schools are opening in Europe, some of the safeguards that they’re taking. And one is teaching with the windows open year-round. I have two windows in my room that open, and they open about 6 inches. The rest of the windows don’t open. (SIGHS) I’m afraid. I’m just really afraid. I am not a spring chicken. I’m 57 years old, and I want to be safe, just like everyone else. So I guess my biggest takeaway, as I look around this room, is how I’m going to do this. And there’s so much ambiguity. We don’t have a plan yet. Ohio does not have a plan yet for next year. (SIGHS) All right.

michael barbaro

So as you’re touring, your classroom you’re realizing that it is designed for a pre-pandemic form of teaching.

ronda mcintyre

Yes, it is. (LAUGHS) Most definitely. Basically, the whole structure of my classroom is set up for sharing —

michael barbaro

Mm.

ronda mcintyre

— sharing items, sharing spaces. And it was really overwhelming.

michael barbaro

Let’s pretend that you attempt to impose these kinds of restrictions — something like a 6-foot distancing system, and, perhaps, you yourself as a teacher physically being further apart from the students than you’ve ever been before. What do you think the impact of all that would be on your students?

ronda mcintyre

I think it’s going to have a numbing kind of effect. It just — it’s going to be a loss. And when you’re heading into middle school, your peers, they’re central. And telling a child, you need to stay this far away from your peers, having to do that on top of teaching —

michael barbaro

Mm.

ronda mcintyre

But then, walking in the hallway, using the restroom — I’m not able to picture how this is going to work. I just — I’m having a lot of angst about it.

michael barbaro

It seems possible that some hybrid scenario like you’re describing would be in place. Maybe it’s not a full classroom, but it’s a half a classroom. Some distance learning, some in-classroom learning with social distancing. And I wonder if you think that teaching is ever going to really feel the same.

ronda mcintyre

No, it’s not going to feel the same, by a long shot.

michael barbaro

But if that takes a while — if that takes years, the foreseeable future — what does that mean?

ronda mcintyre

I don’t know. I am in the latter part of my career, and my fulfillment is really tied to those personal connections.

michael barbaro

Mm-hm.

ronda mcintyre

So if I’m not getting that, then I have to re-evaluate, I think.

michael barbaro

Right — what does it mean to teach, and is this teaching? And is that what you set out to do a few decades ago?

ronda mcintyre

Yeah, that will be a question that I will ask myself if this extends beyond next year.

michael barbaro

And what do you think the answer will be?

ronda mcintyre

I think the answer will be that, if I can handle it financially, that I will leave, because it is — it’s a calling. And without the day-to-day intimacy of connecting with children, and colleagues, and their families, it just — it leaves a lot of emptiness.

michael barbaro

Mm.

ronda mcintyre

For someone else, it might be a good fit. For me I don’t think it would be.

[music]

michael barbaro

It would be a shame to lose you as a teacher, though. I can say that, and I’ve only known you for an hour or so.

ronda mcintyre

Oh, well, thank you very much.

michael barbaro

Well, Ronda, thank you. I do hope that — under the safest possible conditions — that we can resume the kind of classroom environment that you care so deeply about, and that I grew up with, and that so many of us treasure.

ronda mcintyre

Yeah. Yeah, you and everyone else, I think. (LAUGHS)

michael barbaro

Yeah, thank you very much. We really appreciate your time.

ronda mcintyre

Thank you.

ronda mcintyre “P.S. My brother says there was a famous movie star who died a long time ago with your name. Is this true? P.P.S. We live five blocks away from the East River in New York City. Do you live near a river too? Also, what kind of music do you like?” That’s where we’re going to stop for today. All right, I’m going to sign off, because it’s almost time for the Monday Zoom meeting, and I’ve got to go get ready. I’ll see you guys soon. Bye.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (derrick ollie scott, jr.) I need those officers to be convicted and charged, because my dad, he did not have to die.

michael barbaro

The family of Derrick Scott, a black man who died in the custody of Oklahoma City police, are demanding that police there be investigated and charged in his 2019 death after a video showed Scott telling officers, quote, “I can’t breathe” as they pinned him to the ground. The video, recorded by police body cameras, captures one of the officers responding to Scott’s plea by saying, quote, “I don’t care.” Scott died a short time later. A medical examiner found that his arrest contributed to his death. And —

archived recording (mark a. milley) As senior leaders, everything you do will be closely watched, and I am not immune.

michael barbaro

— on Thursday, the country’s top military official, Gen. Mark Milley, apologized for participating in a photo-op in which President Trump walked across Lafayette Square in Washington in order to hold up a Bible in front of a church.

archived recording (mark a. milley) As many of you saw, the result of the photograph of me at Lafayette Square last week, that sparked a national debate about the role of the military in civil society.

michael barbaro

To prepare for that walk, federal authorities deployed tear gas and rubber bullets on mostly peaceful protesters, prompting former military officials to criticize Milley for taking part.

archived recording (mark a. milley) I should not have been there. My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics. As a commissioned, uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I’ve learned from.

michael barbaro