EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: A report on Islamophobic attacks in Australia has found that nearly 80 per cent of the victims were women wearing head coverings or children.

The report also found a clear link between media coverage of Islamic terrorist attacks and an increase in Islamophobic incidents.

Award-winning British journalist and political commentator, Mehdi Hasan, is in Australia for a series of talks on defeating extremism. Mehdi Hasan is the host of Al Jazeera's Upfront program and columnist for The Intercept.

He was included in the annual list of the 500 most influential Muslims in the world. He's in Australia as a guest of the Crescent Institute and he joined me earlier.

Mehdi Hasan, Thanks for your company .

MEHDI HASAN, AL JAZEERA JOURNALIST: Thanks for having me .

EMMA ALBERICI: You are here to talk about what we in the West can do to halt the wave of populism and violence sweeping the globe. You have conflated two of society's big challenges at the moment. Where's the link?

MEHDI HASAN: I think there's a big link between a lot of the populist movements we see, a lot of the terrorist movements we see, and we can argue kind of chicken and egg-style what came first and have a long historical debate about the West's role in the Middle East or quote unquote "Islamist terrorists'" actions in the West since 9/11.

For me, what is really important is to look at what is going on right now, 2017, in the wake of all we have seen over the crazy last 12 months and say 'Are we seeing different groups from different walks of life, extremists of different religions, different cultures, different politics but feeding off of each other?

What I see are groups of people who all want to push the same agenda of division, of fear, of suspicion, or demonising the Other. And I think a lot of us are stuck in the middle. A lot of us are in the middle, saying you know...

Remember, George Bush said after 9/11, "You are either with us or you're with the terrorists"?

And I think of that argument again today and think, you know, today we have of people, far right politicians, "populists", quote unquote, in Europe, in the United States, and elsewhere, saying "We must stand up to this evil, this menace of creeping Sharia, of radical Islamic terrorism".

On the other side, you have a lot of these extremist groups trying to recruit young Muslims saying "The West is against us. We must have this great clash of civilisations". And I think for a lot of us in the middle, the silent majority, we want to say, "You know what, we don't buy into this clash narrative. We don't buy into this fake division. And we won't allow you to keep feeding off each other, and we all suffer in the process".

EMMA ALBERICI: The theme of your talks here in Australia is defeating extremism. What is the prescription as you see it ?

MEHDI HASAN: (LAUGHS) I don't think there is any single prescription. I think anyone who comes along and pretends that there is one single thing you can do to defeat extremism - whether it is people on the Left who say "If we just changed our foreign policy, if we just stopped bombing Muslim-majority countries or stopped supporting the Israeli occupation, all would be good in the world."

Maybe. But a little bit naive and simplistic.

I think that those on the Right who say, "If Islam would have a Reformation, if these Muslim refugees would stop coming into our lands, as some kind of sleepers, then we would have a great, you know, peaceful utopia".

I think there's very simplistic approaches on all sides and I think we need a much more holistic approach and to try and understand why is it that young men and women in the West - some, a minority - turn to terror, want to leave their home countries and go and fight in a far away place.

We need to understand why it is that far Right groups are exploding in numbers. There are a record number of hate groups in the United States, where I now live, which happened on Barack Obama's watch. On the watch of a black President, the United States saw an explosion in white nationalist groups.

Why is it that so many people, to come back to my earlier answer about you know, why is there so much anger and distrust and disillusionment? How do we get people all joining in one society? How do we have an inclusive vision for politics, for governance, for citizenship?

Because right now, too many people, rightly or wrongly, feel excluded.

EMMA ALBERICI: Everything you say, a lot of people watching will scratch their heads about this lack of insight around the problems with Islam, as they see it.

MEHDI HASAN: Mm.

EMMA ALBERICI: In a piece you have written for ABC Online, you argue that the threat of terrorism in this country has indeed been exaggerated. You point out that you are more likely as an Australian in Australia to be killed falling out of bed than any kind of terrorist attack.

Now that kind of talk riles our conservative commentators, who see it as a form of political denial, that you are sort of trivialising a genuine fear that many people hold .

MEHDI HASAN: It's not that we are trivialising it. I think it's about putting things in context.

You want to talk about denial, I would argue that the people who are criticising me or that argument, they're the ones in denial of what we call facts. Remember when facts used to matter?

We live in an age of alternative facts, a post-truth era. So if I present statistics and you don't like it, "You just say, 'I'm offended, this is outrageous', rather than present your own statistics.

The facts wherever you look are that terrorism has been overstated. I use Australia as an example because I'm here and speaking here - and Australia, God bless Australia, has actually had a pretty good run, relatively speaking, since 9/11 - No mass casualty terrorist attack in this country so far. And we pray to God it stays that way, compared to what the poor French have gone through or even the Americans, since 9/11.

But even in the United States, where I now live, you are more likely to be killed by your furniture falling on top of you than you are by a terrorist attack. That is important to point out. It is important to put threats in context, because people on the right - especially some of the conservatives you mentioned, especially the President of the United States - their currency is fear. They want us to be afraid all of the time, of terrorists, of criminals, of refugees, of immigrants. And some of us have to say "What is that fear based on? Let's look at the cold hard facts".

Actually, in the United States, for example, you have 1 in 3.64 billion chance of being killed by a refugee terrorist. And yet the entire debate that Donald Trump started was about Syrian refugees coming here to kill us in our beds. And he banned the most vulnerable people on Earth from entering the United States on that basis.

So some of us are going to push back with some facts and figures. And if that bothers some of those thin-skinned conservatives, so be it.

EMMA ALBERICI: But isn't the counter argument that to not be afraid is to be complacent ?

MEHDI HASAN: Not at all. I think you have a measured approach. No-one is saying there isn't a terrorist threat. I don't say that in the article, I've never said that in any of my journalism; I've called out a lot of these terrorist extremist groups, and I think we need to challenge ideology, we need to challenge the recruitment, etcetera, etcetera.

We need to support security services, give them enough resources. I am all for that. But you have to put the threat in context.

I live in the United States, where 30,000 people die every year from gun-related deaths. The United States government, the Republican Party, which claims to be so worried about terrorism, does nothing to stop those deaths, has no interest in changing the gun laws. And yet we are to be told to be absolutely afraid of terrorists, who kill a miniscule proportion of people in relation to the number of people killed by gun deaths.

So it's very hard for me to take seriously the people saying, "We must worry about security." Okay, let's talk about security. What are we doing about all the gun-related deaths in the United States?

Ah, nothing. So don't expect me to take you seriously when you suddenly get worked up about terrorism. Really, the code- getting worried about terrorism, for a lot of people, is really code for getting worried about foreigners, people who don't look or sound like us - Muslims.

EMMA ALBERICI: Well, indeed. Our former Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, recently said politicians needed to stop quote "pussy footing around" when it comes to calling out the problems within the religion of Islam and how it promotes violence.

Do you, personally, see anything in the doctrine of your faith that gives rise to the kind of brutality exercised by terrorists in Western countries and, indeed, by the fighters in Islamic State in Iraq and Syria?

MEHDI HASAN: That's a very good question. Let me deal with that in a couple of ways.

Number 1, on Tony Abbott, you know, that great scholar of Islam, I don't think he's ever pussy footed around anything himself, so it's interesting that he kind of plays that card.

I find it ironic when a lot of these politicians say "Muslims must do more to do this, Muslims must condemn, Muslims must X, Y, Z".

Let's look at their own record. Tony Abbott as Prime Minister of Australia cosied up to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which many would argue has done more to promote extremism around the world thatn any other country on Earth.

Tony Abbott lowered the flag when the King of Saudi Arabia died and said he was a "great leader, a great political leader, King Abdullah". So I find it ironic that a lot of these Western politicians, who go on about the need for Islam to reform, and Muslims to do... they cosy up to some of the worst regimes in the Muslim majority world!

Bit of a contradiction, some might say.

In terms of the actual question about doctrine: clearly, in every religion there are doctrines, there are beliefs that can be misused, misapplied. Islam is not a pacifistic religion; there are many verses of the Koran, many traditions which relate to warfare. And clearly groups like ISIS have used those in order to justify what they do, in order to give the veneer of legitimacy to some of the most horrific things any human being can do to another human being - for example, enslavement, for example, beheadings.

But does that mean they are acting in the name of Islam? Does that mean Islam is what is driving them? The studies say otherwise, Emma. If you look at for example, ISIS's own recruitment records, which were leaked- which were found in a safe house I believe by one of the armies that were taking over their towns, ISIS's own recruitment records show 70 per cent of their recruits have zero knowledge of Islam, have no basic understanding of Islam.

The idea that people turn up there because they are some devout Muslims, or holy warriors, or ideologues, that's not true.

EMMA ALBERICI: Well the self-appointed caliph, Abu Bakr, doesn't he promote the fact that he has a PhD in Islamic studies?

MEHDI HASAN: He has PhD in Islamic Studies from a completely...

EMMA ALBERICI: It's like "Well, we don't need to do the study, because he's done it and you know he tells us this what our faith calls us to do..."

MEHDI HASAN: Yeah. Osama bin Laden had no scholarly qualifications, Zawahiri, the leader of al Qaeda has no scholarly qualifications. Most of the "Jihadi" group leaders have no scholarly qualifications. Even Baghdadi, PhD from some unknown university in Iraq. His PhD is some obscure commentary on the Koran. He is not regarded as a great Islamic scholar. If he died...

EMMA ALBERICI: You don't need to be an Islamic scholar, I guess, to know that the term 'Jihad', for instance, is a call to fight against those who oppose your religion.

MEHDI HASAN: It's not. But Emma, it's not.

Jihad... So in America right now, there is a big row going on because a Muslim activist said we should have a Jihad against Trump and she's being attacked by the Right. Again, what does she mean? Muslims, most ordinary Muslims you meet, outside of battle fields and ISIS, do not interpret jihad in a violent way or militant way.

Jihad means a struggle, it means having a struggle. If you are struggling with your faith, you are having a Jihad. If you are trying to put food on the table for your family, that's a form of Jihad. But it has been again, misused by groups like ISIS, I accept that.

But look, most terrorism experts- I have interviewed some of the leading experts from the CIA, the FBI and elsewhere, they agree that religion is not what is motivating a lot these people - especially in the West - to go and join these groups. It is much more to do with identity crises, mental health problems, disillusionment with society, perhaps a personal trauma.

Jake Bilardi, the Australian 18 year old convert who went out to join ISIS, was radicalised after his mother's death, I believe.

There's much more... This is what I said at the beginning: We need a more holistic approach to understanding why it is that someone turns to violence in this horrific way, rather than going, "Well it must be something to do Islam."

Clearly they are using Islam. They are called Islamic State! They're calling themselves that for a reason. But let's not give them that propaganda win by assuming that they are legitimately anything to do with Islam or representing Islam.

EMMA ALBERICI: Just before we run out of time, we need to acknowledge that you are with Al Jazeera, which is the Qatari-based broadcaster, the Qatar being in the frame in terms of the allegations that they're chief sponsors of terrorism and so on. Are they any more responsible for funding and supporting terrorism than any of the other Gulf states?

Of course, you called out Saudi Arabia.

MEHDI HASAN: It's a very good question.

I called out Saudi Arabia; I've called out a lot of Gulf states and a lot of countries.

It's interesting. So I present a show on Al Jazeera; I am not a spokesman for Al Jazeera or Qatar but let me take your question.

Donald Trump interestingly accused Qatar of supporting extremism. He was unaware apparently, when he made that claim, there are 10,000 US troops stationed in Qatar. Funny situation to have 10,000 US troops in an ally which you accuse of being a terrorism sponsor.

I think a lot of countries in the Middle East have supported a lot of groups that they shouldn't have done. The former Qatari Prime Minister was interviewed by Charlie Rose recently and was asked, you know, 'Did you support extremist groups in Syria?'

And he said "Yes! Clearly, we made a mistake and supported some awful groups. But so did you!", he said, pointing to the Americans. And the fact is, I think, you look at Syria, Emma, I don't think anyone comes out with their heads held high - not the Americans, not the Turks, not the Qataris, not the Saudis.

And on the other side - not the Iranians, not the Russians. I think everyone there, there are no good guys in Syria, sadly, and awful people have been supported for a lot of awful reasons. And the Syrian people have suffered as a result.

EMMA ALBERICI: Mehdi Hasan, I've really appreciated your insights but unfortunately we are out of time. Thank you.

MEHDI HASAN: Thanks for having me, Emma.