Posted in Theory

A guy and I were having a side conversation about a girl on Twitter. He asked my opinion about a “shit test.” I started to reply to him… but then thought it would be better to do this in public, as the conversation might be interesting to other guys. I’m very much into female psychology, and this was great example we can poke at, and see what we can read of the situation. Of course I’ll dig into my favorite sources… and my citing RSD Julien, Lance Mason, Janka, Krauser, and some world class stuff from Yohami.

We’ll call our friend “Player Jay:”

NASH: Do you mind if I do my response as a blog post?

NASH: Is that cool?

PLAYER JAY: I’m all for it.

PLAYER JAY: Just a conversation with a women.

Cool.

Player Jay is right, it is just a conversation. And I thank him for the opportunity to use his example to work with some concepts related to wrangling girls. I am sure other guys will have other reads on this girl (and other suggestions), about her psychology, and about Player Jay’s response.

If anybody has anything to add… you’re encouraged (as always) to put your thoughts in the comments. This is a chance for us to play with this case study, see what we can read “between the lines.”

Again, my thanks and respect to Player Jay for volunteering some bits from his life for this example.

Here is the introduction:

“Nash, I have an interesting shit test that I’m unsure how to respond to, mind giving me a hand?”

“She’s out of town for a few weeks, clearly looking forward to seeing me when she’s back. She proposed that I not kiss anybody until she returns, obviously that’s not likely. I think I did a good job, responded before I had a chance to gain any input.”

— Player Jay

Okay, so the girl suggested at some point that Player Jay put some kind of limitation on his activity with other girls. We can’t see that first conversation. And I don’t totally know where they are at in their relationship… except Player Jay says she’s “clearly looking forward to seeing me when she’s back.”

The root of all this starts in that conversation (“that I not kiss anybody until she returns”). And we don’t know what she said, why, or how Player Jay reacted to it at the time.

As I see it, the real battle was to be fought then and there.

She set a frame then… and there are a few general, categorical responses to frames: 1. Agree to the frame, 2. Ignore the frame (which can be seen as “passive acceptance”), 3. Challenge the frame (which also assumes the frame, but contradicts it), or 4. Reframe it or the situation (which wipes the frame away, replacing it with another).

I won’t go any further into frames than that. I talk about them all the time, because they are super important in seduction. I will assume that in some way, Player Jay reinforced her frame. Maybe unintentionally. But once she sets a frame (and let’s assume this is all subconscious on her part, nothing intentionally devious), she will come back from that point of reference.

The frame becomes a kind of “truth” in their relationship.

I think this whole scenario looks like trouble. If I were Player Jay, and ever heard anything like that again, I would try to find some clever way to reframe her right that minute.

I don’t have an easy answer for what he should have done at that time (I am guessing about the circumstances), but everything else in this post might help Player Jay see some tools he can use to do that job if he is ever in that situation again. Starting with the certainty that the initial frame was the problem, and everything else followed that.

That’s my read. Let’s move on.

Here is the conversation with the girl that Player Jay sent me:

Now we’re moving past the original problem with the frame, into Player Jay’s analysis of the situation:

PLAYER JAY: She proposed that I not kiss anybody until she returns

PLAYER JAY: Obviously that’s not likely

First, if Jay can be making out with other girls, good for him. I would. I don’t make promises to girls, and I sure as hell don’t ask permission to do what I want. I like girls (a lot). I care for them. If I had a girl in my care on a date, I would work to set up the date so that (I get what I want and…) she has a good experience. But since I don’t make promises to girls, when I am on my own time, I do anything and everything I want.

So… good for Player Jay. It should be more than obvious he should not let her actually influence his life in the way she suggested. We’re saying this outloud just to make it crystal clear.

As for her saying this to him…. I see this is a big Red Flag.

Maybe she is young? I date some young girls (18-20, that is not my specialty, but I have had a lot of dates with girls of that age). And this sounds like something a younger girl might ask for (or a completely crazy older girl). Even so, it’s a particular personality type that is trying to control his behavior when she is not with him. I would say this is true, even if you are in a committed relationship of some kind. Even with a commitment, if she is actively trying to police your behavior… that is a red flag.

It has happened to me. But I would never let it happen now. And as soon as I saw the first sign of it, I would squash it… or leave.

I happen to be studying Lance Mason of Pickup101 right now. He is a genius (Yohami studied him too). I have fresh notes I just took, and I can add them here:

“Drama is like a snowball… this little snowball… but it’s on top of Mount Everest. I am going to say, 100% of the time, if a woman is starting a little bit of drama, early on, it is absolutely going to grow, and expand with time.”

— Lance Mason

Great line. Drama = Red Flag. She is showing this early. Expect more… and that is not a good thing.

And check this out:

“As a rule, a woman will say or do something early on in a relationship, by which she will unwittingly reveal the degree of her self-esteem and also what she expects from her relationships with men. Therefore, it is important that you pay very close attention to what a woman does and says at the very beginning of any relationship.”

— From Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man

Also applicable ^. Presumably this is early in the relationship… and she is telling you how she is going to behave. This is like a subconscious “confession” of sorts that girls will do… it’s like they warn you in a subtle way.

She is telling you: she is going to be jealous and/or controlling in the future.

This idea of the “Early Frame Announcement” is a very insightful bit of female psych from the guys that wrote that book. Once I heard it, I could start to spot little “tells” from girls early on, about what they are going to be like down the road. In this case, I’m not worried about her self-esteem (although that could be the source), it’s more about her signaling what she will be like in the relationship.

She is controlling. Maybe in general. Or maybe there is something about her relationship to Player Jay that is inspiring this? But I would bet on this being “a thing” about her.

PLAYER JAY: She’s out of town for a few weeks

This ^ is another clue as to the scenario. She isn’t in town. So Player Jay can’t fuck her now. He can’t touch her. She can’t make him a sandwich. So… he has some incentive not to talk to her at all. It is maintenance with no hope of ROI… not until she is back within striking distance.

Starting at the very top, one thing to do here, would be to limit conversation with this girl after she made a controlling request like that. Just ignore it. Conversation is over, because she mis-stepped. Let her feel that. Don’t explain. Don’t respond. Go silent. Try her again in a couple of days.

And I think (for many reasons), the play at this stage… would be to go out, and “meet five new women.” Ones that you can get your hands on. Talk to them instead. If you do that well enough, you might be too busy to even remember to respond to a controlling behavior like this. That is the best play. Guys never want to hear this, but it is always the best play. Minimize her, by maximizing everything else.

From what little I know about Player Jay… this is not the only girl in his pocket. He is working other leads. I think that is good in general, particularly if a lead is giving you trouble.

Now, let’s get into the actual conversation:

GIRL: Have you kissed someone?

Regardless of the initial conversation that set this frame, she has gone past the “suggestion” into actively policing his behavior.

I don’t know if Player Jay did anything to make this girl head down this path. Maybe he telegraphed that he was “player” (just because we are, doesn’t meant he girl needs to “feel” that vibe coming off of us). Or maybe he told stories about other girls… the old “jealousy plotline” (which I do NOT do in my game, I think that is playing with fire). Maybe he did. I don’t know.

But if he did not… I don’t like this from her at all. It’s extra crazy if she just invented this scenario. I’m not saying it’s “rare.” Girls do this kind of stuff. I am saying it’s a red flag.

So, how would I respond? I would start by creating my own frame.

Recently another player named ToDayGame had a similar “shit test,” and we talked about it online. In that case, I gave this response as a suggestion:

YOU: You can’t wait to hear from me…

YOU: Good girl

My rationale at the time I suggested these particular lines was, “The point is reframe… don’t respond to her ‘command.'” I still like that.

“Be at the cause, not at the effect.”

— RSD Julian

I quote this all the time. This sounds dead-simple but it is endlessly profound. I use this almost every day in my life. That line is so powerful.

The whole set up is because Player Jay is “at the effect” of this girl’s frame. That is where he starts to lose control of the situation (as I see it)… and potentially lose control of her as well. And he can fix this (perhaps), if he can “be at the cause” and reframe her, and put her “at the effect” of his own frame. It can be done.

Here is another approach that works to set a new frame by moving her down a romantic path. I cut her thread entirely (do not respond to her content), and I move to a new thread, which is more romantic/sexual. I work to establish that “this is how we talk to each other and this is what we talk about.”

NASH: Sounds like you miss me.

NASH: You’re so far away…

NASH: Wishing you were close…

NASH: Wondering where I would take you if you were here.

I might do something like this. That is not explosive… but I am now leading… and her thread is dead and buried in a shallow grave in the desert (where it belongs).

My goal here would be to 1. reframe her comment and 2. distract her.

I am not engaging with her poison. I am reframing her controlling comment about “kissing other girls” as “missing me.” And you’ll notice I am putting words in her head (aka telling her what to think). I am also distracting her, leading her away from her treacherous line of thought into something seductive. That is where I want to be. So I would take her there.

Reframing is a form of conversational leadership.

Let’s start at the beginning with her psychology:

She might have a vague, unformed “feeling” of wanting “something” from Player Jay. But she’s a messy girl (like so many girls), so she does the first bullshit thing she can think of – create drama – as a way to begin to connect with Player Jay. She is not trying to be crazy, she is just a silly girl, and she picked a destructive way to “connect.”

When she does something lame in a situation like this, don’t play with her poison bait. Just see her behavior as an unskilled request for your presence, and start to lead.

Here it is again, more developed:

NASH: Sound like you miss me.

NASH: You’re so far away…

NASH: Wishing you were close…

NASH: Wondering where I would take you if you were here.

NASH: But hey… it’s late.

NASH: If you’re gonna ping me late at night…

NASH: The least you can do is send me something beautiful to look at

NASH: Send me a picture of you that you like

This is not bad. I could see myself saying something like this to a girl.

And again, I’m working from the idea that she is a bad leader (most girls are), she made a bad suggestion of what to talk about (“let me tell you who you can kiss”), I would not respond to it at all, I would start creating a small fantasy, and then… I would specifically gave her a task to do:

Send me a picture.

It is a command, not a request. More dominance. She might be craving dominance, so this could calm down the red flag behavior.

There is some risk here… if you don’t have enough value, you can’t get away with issuing commands. But if you do, it’s a good direction to lead the girl. And you might “add value” by being the kind of man that pull off initiating this kind of request.

That is not bad. We are doing a lot of things right there.

While we are on the topic of the photo, here is a comment from Krauser that helped me really understand that particular command with a girl.

KRAUSER: Send me a photo of you

This ^ is something he demonstrates in his book Daygame Infinite.

Here are the notes from that section of his book:

“Compliance test and probe for how she wants me to see her. The type of photo a girl sends back gives you a ton of information about how she wants you to see her.”

— Krauser

Excellent command of psychology here.

He is not asking for a nude. But he didn’t say “don’t send me a nude” either. She might read it that way. Or not. Let her wonder what to send. Let her show you how she wants you to see her (at this stage of knowing her).

Excellent insight… very good female psychology. Does she send a shot with her friends (social). Playing volleyball (sporty). Drinking (party girl). In a proper dress (conservative). A nude (“green light”).

Here is a different idea:

GIRL: Have you kissed someone?

NASH: Don’t be boring

NASH: Hey… if you were to go on a vacation, would you go to a warm place? Or a cold place?

Or, a variant that uses another line from RSD Julian:

GIRL: Have you kissed someone?

NASH: Hey, act normal

NASH: Question for you… if you were to go on a vacation, would you go to a warm place? Or a cold place?

Both of those ideas have the same underlying analysis (her question is poison, don’t touch it), but in this case, a “push” against her bad behavior. That would be some negative feedback (signaling that you don’t like that kind of question), and then… immediately distract her with something “flashy” and fun.

I’m not into negative feedback. I want to give girls good experiences or I don’t want to spend time with them. But here, I could do this. A small verbal smack, but then… the distraction follow up is key. Distract her immediately. You break her pattern with some mild, conversational violence, and then… bring her back into the land of milk and honey.

Another one:

GIRL: Have you kissed someone?

NASH: [pic of somebody yawning]

NASH: Hey… you know a lot of girls, right?

NASH: Some girl said XYZ to my friend…

NASH: What do you think that means?

Again, you’re giving her negative feedback on her lame plotline (signaling you don’t like that shit), and then immediately using some “chick crack” to get her spinning in a more positive direction. It’s good leadership. She can connect now, and on a topic that isn’t destructive, and you’re entertaining her.

Here is a more harsh version:

GIRL: Have you kissed someone?

NASH: Hey, I don’t want to do drama tonight

NASH: I like you…

NASH: If you want to be nice, let’s talk

NASH: But I don’t need that kind of question

And then, maybe freeze her out.

I said things almost exactly like that (so many times) to Baby Dragon when I was trying to work my way into her panties in Shanghai. I’d smash her poison frame (she was always trying to talk about me and other girls). In this example, I’m not being romantic, I’m being firm. It’s a big push. There is a small “pull” of “I like you,” but it’s mostly smashing her down.

I had a lot of value with Baby Dragon, so I could get away with this… but doing this also made her like me much more (I am convinced of it). She is very sweet now (sent me a great nude the other day… 19 year old skin, delicious).

Here is a very recent example from her that is a little bit like Player Jay’s situation:

HER: What r u doing?

NASH: Hello from Tokyo

NASH: I am in Starbucks

HER: Alone?

NASH: Do you miss your Strong Man??

HER: [happy face with hearts in the eyes]

NASH: No… there are 100 people here. : ]

HER: hahaha

A little bit similar to Player Jay’s situation when she asks if I am “alone.” She is fishing at jealousy. Her “alone?” is questioning if I am with another girl.

And I could have stopped with my “you miss your Strong man” comment. She was satisfied. Do you see that? I wasn’t worried or taking her that seriously (which is also a good frame), so I didn’t address her plotline, but I misinterpreted it, and she laughed. Yohami might do something like this (but more artful)… no “tussle,” just good management of her emotions (Yohami might not even see it as a test… he’d breeze by it).

Now let’s look at Player Jay’s response:

PLAYER JAY: It wouldn’t make a difference considering you know you’re my favorite

As I see it, that is not great. It is not terrible. But I don’t think it helped him. It’s a C/C- response from him. He could do more to get what he wants with other responses.

In this case, he took on her “poison concept,” but attempted to move past it… maybe trying to use sweetness to calm her or charm her or distract her. That would be moving in the right direction, but I don’t think it is effective.

I could see someone (maybe Player Jay?) thinking the reference to calling her “my favorite” as an attempt to spin her poison into a competition between her (“the favorite”) and the “other girls.” If that is true, I don’t personally like it. I don’t think egging on more jealousy works here. I would not go there with this girl (or in general)… it’s a “dark alley.”

There are worse things you could say: “No, baby. Of course not! I miss you so much. When can I see you? [emoji] [emoji] [emoji] [emoji].” Anything that agrees to her frame (and complies with it) would have been terrible. Player Jay didn’t do any of that. He didn’t comply with her frame… but he didn’t really help himself either… and her frame is still in play.

Now her response:

HER: [sad] [broken heart]

HER: [sad] [broken heart]

HER: This sounds a bit illogical

HER: But I really miss seeing you

Yeah, based on her response, I don’t think Player Jay’s comment helped him here. I think Player Jay is a little deeper in the mess now.

HER: This sounds a bit illogical

This is her saying “that didn’t work.” And she is saying it verbally. So now she is logical (=masculine). This is ++unsexy. We are moving away from sex.

“When you’re interacting with a woman you’re never stationary… you’re only doing one of two things, you’re moving closer to sex, or you’re moving farther away… every decision you make and every minute that elapses when you’re spending time with a woman is either bringing you closer to sex, or father away. Everything ties into this, leadership, taking charge, whatever you want to call it. If you’re not moving the interaction towards sex, then it’s probably moving away from it… and she’s putting you in a different category.”

— Janka

Another great quote from Janka. Excellent.

So I think Player Jay’s response did not get a good reaction from drama girl, and took him further away from sex. He looks like he has some value to her (she is still responding), she may in fact be looking forward to seeing him when she gets back, but look at that last line from Janka:

“[S]he’s putting you in a different category.”

This is a great setup for the next part of this post.

And now for some SUPER GOLD, epic Yohami theory:

“Imagine that we’re playing chess. The objective is to checkmate the King. As soon as you have a way to do checkmate, do the checkmate.”

“Now. This is a special scenario where the girl is trying to determine how good of a chess player you are. To evaluate you, she’ll offer little puzzles, little problems, and expect you to do checkmate or take valuable pieces and not fall in the traps.”

— Yohami

“She’ll offer little puzzles.” “To evaluate you.” Does that sound about right? Even felt that with a girl?

Are you Top Guy? Or Bottom Guy? This is the practical purpose of how girls use “tests.” Yohami is red-hot here.

“When a girl likes you she’s rooting for you to do well. She wants you to win the game. She’ll also give you obvious problems and puzzles.”

“Every time you move at a slower pace, not take the pieces, not do checkmate, not move forward, you fail. She may give you a few more and guide you more.”

“The result is that the girl experiences a mix of disappointment, rejection, boredom, frustration, and anxiety.”

Can you see ^ that in drama girl’s last comment to Player Jay? Sad face, sad face.

She is a mix of unhappy and frustrated. She may still like him, but when he failed her “puzzle,” she isn’t satisfied, nor turned on… she is more unsettled… and moving away from being seduced.

The whole reason I wanted to write this post is because I could tell by her reaction that she is going to 1. Give Player Jay more “puzzles” to solve, that 2. They will get harder now, as he didn’t pass this one. She has to test him even harder now.

“The less of a good player you are, the less attracted she becomes, which makes her increase the difficulty of the puzzles.”

Super badass line here ^. So true. Perfectly said.

It was these original comments from Yohami that taught me to see this kind of stuff. I used to be in situations like this one all the time.

We’ve all been here. And we can all learn.

“Yes, the best player in the world gets the easiest puzzle, and the worst player in the world gets the hardest puzzle. It’s exponentially reversal.”

“Not moving forward and being safe doesn’t make things easier, it makes them harder.”

Can you follow that? Yohami is a damn genius.

My guess is that this girl is a terrible drama queen. Jay should move on. Period.

The strongest men can have decent relationships with drama queens — if they keep them on a very short leash. In this scenario, I think that ship has already sailed. It’s too late for this one.

Time to move on. That is my guess.

As this girl moved forward with her poison frame, she gave him a type of puzzle (not an easy one). Player Jay’s response didn’t work. So now he’s deeper in the hole. And she will work very hard to test him now… and the tests will become more difficult.

Even drama queens are “looking for fitness.” They won’t let “un fit” men fuck them. So they test for fitness (psychological and otherwise).

To Yohami’s (masterful) point, if she can already see a man is very fit, she will give him an easy puzzle (“hey, what are you doing this weekend”)… or no puzzle at all… just “LOL” and “yes” to everything he says. If you’ve ever had a girl that really likes you, that is how she behaves.

But if she senses “low fitness,” prepared to get tooled. More tests. More long gaps in the communication. More flaked dates. More bitchy coldness on dates. All signs she sees you as Bottom Guy. She put you in “that category.” So you get that kind of treatment.

This game was already mostly cooked when Player Jay let her set the frame where she was talking about him and other girls at all. He let that happen… and that taught her something.

So how do you save this situation? What is the perfect line, now, at this stage of the game?

I’ll tell you… I wouldn’t even try.

Ask her out when she is back… any drama at all… move on. That’s what I would do.

Let’s go back to the beginning. That is where the trouble started, and that is where we need to focus if we want to first “unfuck our dating lives” and then move toward being Top Guy.

She seems like a poisonous drama girl. But, I don’t always have enough leads, and I like to “work my leads.” You never know. And I have been surprised before.

So… what do you do? Same thing I said earlier:

“Go meet five more girls” (which I think Player Jay has already done). You can protect yourself with more options:

You won’t pursue the ‘worst one” unless she’s the only one.

Once you have five more leads… you can try again with this girl. Maybe once more. And then you drop her, and never look back.

“This is another fantastic reason, to date three or four women at a time… when you are dating four women, and one girl starts creating drama, it is so easy [he laughs] it’s like ‘okay, okay, wow, it’s been nice!’ Really. Move on.”

— Lance Mason

Exactly. I learned this kind of stuff from Lance (in theory) long ago. It started the mindset in me. And Yohami helped me see how “puzzles” (shit tests) work. And how when I don’t run good game, my puzzles get harder… and I’m unlikely to succeed from that weak start. I’ll just collect abuse if I try. Collecting bad reactions from girls is not good for my inner game. That is not sexy.

But… some girls will like you more than others. You can meet more/different girls, and the next girl might like you better (=easier puzzles). And when you do meet a girl that wants to see you win, you learn faster and collect more positive reference experiences. Your tests are easier, and you get farther, and you learn what it’s like to be successful. And you get laid. You spiral up.

“The best lesson that I have learned, it’s not my job to be the detective and figure out why she has a problem. We just started dating. And the reason I am dating a lot of girls is so I spot this stuff early on, so I can not waste my time, and I can move on, right away, to the four other girls that don’t have any of these issues. Zero drama, you guys.”

Thanks, Lance. You’re right, man. Thanks.

And my thanks to Player Jay for giving us a “girl” to play with in this scenario. You didn’t show us the first part, where she set that frame… and I would urge you to look back at that moment, and train yourself to spot that as the point where she diverges into giving you harder and harder tests. That was the place to begin to win.

And otherwise… I think you can do better than this girl. And I wish you luck, brother.

May we all have good experiences. May we give the girls good experiences. May we all be entertained.

Viva daygame.