ALYSSA

Hey, everyone, welcome back from the break. I'm here with Oleg discussing “The Edge of the World” from Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Last Wish. When we left off, Geralt and his bard friend, Dandelion, have traveled to Dol Blathanna, The Valley of Flowers, at the edge of the world in search of work for the witcher. At the request of the locals, Geralt attempts to rid a nearby hemp and hops field of a sylvan who has been stealing from the town and demanding levies of grain.

In Part VI, Geralt and Dandelion are captured and bound by a group of Aen Seidhe elves. One, Toruviel, taunts the Witcher, causing him to retaliate by breaking her nose. It turns out Torque, the sylvan, is taking grain, seeds, and farming knowledge from the freemen of Lower Posada on behalf of the starving Aen Seidhe. During heated exchanges between Geralt and the elves, Torque continually tries to prevent the elves from harming the Witcher and bard.

The chapter opens as Geralt wakes up from being knocked out. He's getting his bearings. He knows he's bound. And he kind of rolls himself over, because he hears talking. So, Geralt hears them before he actually sees them. When he turns around, he realizes that Galarr is an elf. And the description here is that “his hair was black with a distinct hint of dark blue. He had sharp features, big, bright eyes, and pointed ears. Galarr was an elf – an elf from the mountains, a pure-blooded Aen Seidhe, a representative of the Old People.”

And, when they say “old people,” they specifically refer to elves or people from before the conjunction of the spheres. He learns that the devil, the sylvan, is named Torque. The devil and Galarr, who Torque refers to by name, are using the Old Language, which is the language of elves. But that the words “corn”, “beans”, and “oilseed” are in the Common Tongue. So, these are words that we now learn are, like, not natively part of the Aen Seidhe language. So, they have to use the Common Tongue. So, just kind of a throw on words that are new, because they've never had to say these things before.

OLEG

They're basically starving in the mountains and they don't know how to get food the way that the humans do, which is through agriculture. I would imagine this is why they don't have words for some of the farming practices and fruits of agriculture that the humans have.

ALYSSA

As I said, Galarr and Torque are speaking in the Old Language, which Geralt understands. And this is a language, not necessarily exclusive to elves but of elven origin. Oleg, you had, like, a note about having looked up some of the translations of these.

OLEG

Yeah. So, it's interesting. Reading in the Russian version, the Old People “speech” and Dwarven are actually written using the Latin alphabet just like in the English version, as opposed to Cyrillic. Again, I think we mentioned it before, but, Sapkowski, he didn't take that much time to build a world and then put characters in it. But he's more, it seems like, world-building around characters in the story as he goes. Unlike, maybe like Tolkien who designed this whole Elvish alphabet and, you know, language and all of that. So, again, from what I understand, Sapkowski, he uses Gaelic, Norse, and influences of other languages and puts these words together where many readers can kind of get the gist of what's being said and then gives context just in case you didn't understand. For example, three phrases you'll see. There's one in the Elvish speech. They say, “A d'yaebl aép arse.” I don't know if I pronounced that correctly. Again, it's a mix of these sounds from those older languages meaning “A devil up your ass.” I guess kind of like, “Go fuck yourself.”

ALYSSA

Yeah. Yeah.

OLEG

Also, in Dwarven, they say, “Duvvel hoael,” yeah, which means “Devil take it.” And some of these I – basically, I took time to look up online, because I was just really wondering what they said. Another one, “Duvvelsheysse,” which in Dwarven means “devil shit.” This is Dwarven also. So, I think some of these have maybe even official translations. And some of them probably fans guess that – what they mean based on similar words in other languages that means something or contexts or both.

ALYSSA

This Old Language is something that we're going to see continually throughout the series. And it's something that I think, as you said, we kind of get a very general understanding of what it is, how it works. We can figure it out from context clues or from the characters translating amongst each other. But I imagine the Netflix show they're probably going to have someone who creates languages actually work on it and develop it, which would be really exciting to see this on-screen.

OLEG

Yeah, I think the popular guy right now is the one who did Dothraki in the Game of Thrones—

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

—and everything. So, maybe they'll use him or are using him in, in the Witcher series. [Spoiler alert: they did.]

ALYSSA

Yeah, there's – especially when you look at something like high fantasy like this, where you have a number of different races. It provides, like, a lot more, I think, interesting depth for the way the world works and for the development of these races independent of each other. Yay, evolution.

Geralt gets his bearings. They realize he's awake. And one of the elves comes over to harass Geralt and Dandelion. And her name is Toruviel. And she just beats them up, I think, seemingly for the sake of it, especially Dandelion, the poor guy. She, like, roughs him around, and then takes his lute and tells him that he, as a human, is unworthy of playing such an instrument. She just smashes it against the tree and throws it at his feet. The narrator does say that Dandelion looked like he was about to cry. She's actually incredibly critical. A very, very, very minor character and, without giving away any plot details, Toruviel, as a character and as a plot device… Just remember her. Like, I'm not gonna say anything more, but just remember her. Her, as a mechanism, she's a wonderful world-building device. So, I would just say just keep her in mind. Just note her in the back of your head.

OLEG

I think Toruviel is a very interesting character. You know, obviously, violent and hateful as, as another character later mentions that she's “sick.” I'm not sure exactly if they're referring to she's sick as in, you know, she has a mental disease or something that makes her violent or if she's sick with hate for humans as we've kind of discussed. One other thing that's interesting, she introduces us to some Elvish phrases. When Garrett is looking at her, she says, “Que glosse?” And then she says, “Que I'en pavienn, ell'ea?” I don't know if I pronounced that correctly. But, so, basically, what she's saying is, “What are you looking at, man ape?” I believe she, she says. He answers, “Nell'ea.” He, meaning Geralt. “T'en pavienn, Aen Seidhe.” From what I understand, that possibly “Nell’ea” is the negation for “ell’ea” what she says is maybe an impolite way to answer, “Nothing,” to a question. And “You're the ape”.

From what I understand, the name for them Aen Seidhe [Aen “Shay”] or, perhaps, Aen Seidhe [Aen “Sei-da”]—from what I understand, that means actually “hill folk”, “mountain elves”, because that's where they live now. And, so, he says, “Nothing. You're the ape, hill folk,” which is pretty offensive to her. Insulting, you know, considering that she really looks down on humans. And, um—

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

That seems to be a common theme I think in fantasy in general with elves. You know, in Tolkien or even in, like – I don’t know. For example, the Dragon Age games, you'll see that the elves are in decline. They're pushed out by humans.

ALYSSA

Yeah. They do not hold back with the slurs from both Toruviel and the elves as well as Geralt. It's a lot of contempt. Truly, um, racial tension and contempt between humans and elves. And we do see this in the very beginning when Nettly tells Geralt and Dandelion, like, “We don't interact with each other.” Again, this is coming from a local. And we see that on the other side with Toruviel and with the elves.

OLEG

Both sides seem to really dehumanize each other. Well – or “de-elvenize”, whatever. “Depersonize” each other. And kind of it seemed to have the attitude toward the other as if they're dangerous, lower, and barbaric. Toruviel, she really reminds me of a radical youth you'll see and conflict area in our world today and throughout history. So, you'll see people who were there when the conflict started. They remember where and what happened. Maybe they're a little more moderate, even though they're still opinionated. And then you'll have youth who are kind of born during either the brunt of it or after. And they're already more indoctrinated in the propaganda. So—

ALYSSA

Mhmm. That's a good point.

OLEG

So, for example, as you see, even though Geralt or others are speaking Common, she'll just keep using Elven speech, probably, because she would be disgusted to speak, you know, the enemy's language—

ALYSSA

Mhmm.

OLEG

—as happens so often.

ALYSSA

She's certainly an aggressor at this stage. It's interesting the note that you make that she's, as you say, indoctrinated into whatever these beliefs are. That she's very radicalized in terms of their ideologies and their way of living. That probably has a lot to do with the nature of, you know, when she was born and the context in which she was living. We have no idea how old she is. So, whether she was around at the time that the elves are pushed to the Blue Mountains. Or, if she was born and raised in that context, and then just has this underlying resentment for something that she, going back to it, could have been entitled to or could have had a right to living in Dol Blathanna. And she just can't, because that's something that was stripped from her ancestors. So, we really don't know. But we do understand that she has a lot of aggression toward Dandelion and Geralt now. And it specifically stems from racial aggression and superiority.

So, Toruviel, as she's harassing Geralt and Dandelion, Dandelion, specifically, it angers Geralt. She's wearing a necklace. While still bound, he jumps up, grabs the necklace with his teeth, and he yanks her down and starts to tussle her. He's able to break her nose with just his face, and the elves pull them apart. As this is going on, someone makes the command to kill Geralt and Dandelion. And another elf steps into the clearing. This elf is riding a white horse, has beautiful white hair. I think that Geralt and Dandelion have like a brief sense of relief. It turns out that's not necessarily the case. As they start to talk to this newcomer, it’s explicitly said what Torque’s purpose is down in Lower Posada. And Geralt says:

[Reading] “Our sylvan friend is on a special mission in the Valley of Flowers. Am I right, Torque? At the elves’ request, he’s stealing seeds, seedlings, knowledge about farming. What else, devil?” “Whatever I can,” bleated Torque. “Everything they need. And show me something they don’t need. They’re starving in the mountains, especially in winter. And they know nothing about farming. And, before they’ve learned to domesticate game or poultry and to cultivate what they can in their plots of land… They haven’t got the time, human.”

OLEG

Torque, he wasn't there to cause trouble for the peasants. Although, from what I understand by his kind of mischievous nature, he liked to mess with them a little bit as well. He's actually kind of – he wasn't a monster. He's actually almost a hero in his own right trying to help these desperate people, the elves.

ALYSSA

With that context, we meet one of these elves, the “commander.” And as he's talking to Geralt, he says:

[Reading] “It is you humans who hate anything that differs from you, be it only by the shape of its ears. That’s why you took our land from us, drove us from our homes, forced us into the savage mountains. You took our Dol Blathanna, the Valley of Flowers.”

“The world is huge,” muttered the Witcher. “We can find room. There's enough space.”

“The world is huge,” repeated the elf. “That's true human, but you've changed the world. At first, you use force to change it. You treated it as you treat anything that falls into your hands. Now, it looks as if the world has started to fit in with you. It's given way. It's given in.”

Geralt didn’t reply.

“Torque spoke the truth. Yes, we are starving. Yes, we are threatened with annihilation. The sun shines differently. The air is different. Water is not how it used to be. The things we used to eat, made use of are dying, diminishing, deteriorating. We never cultivated the land. Unlike you humans, we never tore at it with hoes and ploughs. To you, the earth pays a bloody tribute. It bestowed gifts on us. You tear the earth’s treasures from it by force. For us, the earth gave birth and blossomed, because it loved us. Well, no love lasts forever. But we still want to survive.”

This is our introduction to why things are happening the way that they're happening, why the elves have commissioned Torque to steal for them, and why they've asked him to understand agriculture for them, because they have a desire and an innate will to survive. There's a note about Filavandrel and who he is and where he comes from.

OLEG

So, as Alyssa was saying, there is an older elf that comes in, stops the violence, and he introduces himself as Filavandrel aen Fidhail—if the pronunciation is correct—of the Feleaorn family of Silver Towers from White Ships. And then he says, “Now, I'm Filavandrel of the Edge of the World.” It seems like from maybe an influential elven family. I didn't really understand what White Ships were.

ALYSSA

Well, they capitalize White Ships. So, it could be a geographical place. The other thing is that it's commonly known that the elves came to the continent on white ships.

OLEG

That’s what I was gonna mention.

ALYSSA

So, yeah. So, it's one of those things that it could be very literal in terms of some geographical location that has inherited the name White Ships. Or, it could be that it turns out this dude is really fucking old.

OLEG

Yeah.

ALYSSA

And he's just like old enough that he was one of the first elves to embark on the continent.

OLEG

But then, also, I think, an interesting point in the whole discussion of whose land is it if they had also arrived. You know, the elves didn't come from this continent. He just seems like a proud elf though more moderate than Toruviel.

ALYSSA

Or, if not, moderate in his views. Even if he has the same views that Toruviel has, he's more restrained in the execution of them. He doesn't come across as, like, this kind of fiery, active angry that Toruviel is. But he has underlying resentment that he doesn't even attempt to hide. But he does strike a conversation with Geralt. There's a ton of exposition in Filavandrel’s discussion with Geralt, not only just from a logistic standpoint that they're having Torque do this but from a very deeper value standpoint. It's almost a point of pride that they haven't used agriculture before, that this isn't something that they ever needed when they had Dol Blathanna on their own. They're curious about it simply for the sake of survival. A part where Filavandrel’s contempt really shows, he starts talking to Geralt. And he and Geralt argue repeatedly about the relations between humans and elves. And Geralt, at some point, tells Filavandrel that they need to cohabitate. It's necessary for their survival for them to get along with humans. Filavandrel says:

[Reading] “Cohabit on your terms? Acknowledging your sovereignty? Losing our identity? Cohabit as what? Slaves? Pariahs? Cohabit with you from beyond the walls you’ve built to fence yourselves away in towns? Cohabit with your women and hang for it? Or, look on at what half-blood children must live with? Why are you avoiding my eyes, strange human? How do you find cohabiting with neighbors from whom, after all, you do differ somewhat?” Filavandrel continues, “Is that what you want to impose on others? The conviction that your time has come, your human era and age, and that what you’re doing to other races is as natural as the rising and the setting of the sun? That everybody has to come to terms with it, to accept it? And you accuse me of vanity? And what are the views you’re proclaiming? Why don’t you humans finally realize that your dominion of the world is as natural and repellant as lice multiplying in a sheepskin coat? You could propose we cohabit with lice and get the same reaction and I’d listen to the lice as attentively if they, in return for our acknowledgment of their supremacy, were to agree to allow common use of the coat.”

We see here very vividly the struggle between elves and humans. It seems to be a point of pride for Filavandrel. “You don't deserve the sovereignty that you're demanding.”

OLEG

Yeah, definitely. I mean I think this is probably the central most significant part of this story besides that monster quote. I feel like it's, you know, a metaphor and everything forward. First of all, the overall theme of The Other throughout the chapter, you know, fear, hate, and blame, lack of understanding. Historically, things we've seen in our own world, where one population comes and starts to incur on the land of another, especially when it's able to gain superiority in a way to push the other out and push out their culture and everything else as well.

ALYSSA

Whether this is intentional or not on Sapkowski’s part, this idea of Dol Blathanna, definitely, evokes the Garden of Eden and its abundance in what it provides both for elves in predecessor times as well as for humans now. And then you see the exile of these elves leaving the land. They even believe the need to take back what's theirs.

OLEG

For me, it's very reminiscent of the plight of indigenous people all over our world. Historically, the elves, like many indigenous, are viewed on one side as these enigmatic early inhabitants, you know, with old, rich traditions, which is seen actually as non-civilization, but savagery by the colonists or by those, you know, coming in. They have a deep connection to the land, nature, animals, their ancestral lineage. Again, we hear a lot of what we know about many indigenous cultures. They kind of lived with the cycles, and the ebbs, and the flows, whereas, the humans, just like the colonists, take by force, bend it to their will, which is, again, one of the reasons that the elves are starving and in such a bad situation. Just the invention of agriculture can only be done within the context of colonists, who are there to strong-arm and change and manipulate and not just take. And, now that they've changed everything, now the elves need to survive by the means of the humans; meaning, by agriculture and other practices. Maybe similarly to the introduction of, you know, firearms or horses and other things that colonists often brought. And, now, they’re just made up of small broken groups living in a corner of the world that was their own in poverty, pushed to the edges by new commerce. They push, and push, and push. And then they treat the people they pushed out as the dangerous savages and second-rate people. So, going back to the quote about the monsters, they dehumanize them. So, it's easier to excuse to yourself your treatment of these people and think we're doing it to protect ourselves. They're dangerous, you know. But, really, you're exterminating these people.

ALYSSA

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack here about the history of race relations and the expansion of industry. As you said, the exact thing that we've seen historically that we're again seeing in the world of The Witcher. And this idea of what are the consequences of these racial tensions, what are the effects of it, and how does this play out in the day-to-day interactions and assimilation of these people into human society. So, we're going to see this in all sorts of different contexts. But Sapkowski does make race relations a very strong part of the character-building that drives the Witcher universe.

OLEG

The elves, they–you know, they consider the humans dirty, smelly, stinky, barbaric, you know.

ALYSSA

Mhmm.

OLEG

And they fear their increasing numbers for more breeding, as well as spreading their own more aggressive culture, and that they're afraid will snuff out the original local one. That's what you see a lot of times in Europe about migrants today and throughout history everywhere.

ALYSSA

I mean there is a resurgence of nationalistic overtones and undertones in the way that people are conducting themselves even now. There are definitely lessons to be taken from literature and from history, but also from the Witcher universe about I think the dangers of these nationalistic impulses and points of view.

OLEG

Geralt makes, you know, a pretty good rational argument. “The world is huge. We can cohabit. You know, we can coexist. Why are you being too proud? Why don't you just change with the times? It's coming.” And Filavandrel says, “So, you see yourself as just the natural order that you guys take over everything now?” And I think Geralt really gets them on that. And he's like, “Look at me, I'm kind of not fully human, but I make do. And I'm not too proud.” At the same time though, Filavandrel, I think, makes a great argument. And it applies I think with, again, indigenous people in our world. You know, push them out, and then they live on reservations and et cetera. You know, Filavandrel even said, “We’ll acknowledge your superiority on this continent.” He used it in the metaphor with lice on the–on the coat.

ALYSSA

Mhmm.

OLEG

They're willing to acknowledge it. Just give them equal rights so to say, because they know to cohabitate, what does it mean? Cohabitate, probably, you know, be pushed into servitude by the humans that you look down upon. And just the human’s culture, just like the colonists, is so innately aggressive. That, eventually, it’s just gonna eat the culture of the elves and break the land, break them, break their society, you know.

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

So, he's, like, “We can't cohabitate, because the people offering us to do so—well, Geralt, as a representative, kind of—those people actually wouldn't let us do so on just equal terms even if we gave in and even if we compromise.” And Geralt, he goes on to kind of say, like, “So, why argue with such a louse and blah, blah, blah.” So, I think Geralt is a little bit hypocritical there because then he gets too proud. “Why are you arguing with me? Just kill us,” kind of thing.

ALYSSA

Yeah. Geralt kind of responds with, like a, “Well, fuck you then.”

OLEG

Yeah.

ALYSSA

I think he says something that's just short of telling him to screw off. There's actually an excerpt here that I find particularly interesting. Geralt says:

[Reading] “You’re pathetic, with your little stolen sacks of seeds on pack horses, with your handful of grain, that tiny crumb thanks to you, which you plan to survive. And with that mission of yours which is supposed to turn your thoughts from imminent annihilation. Because you know this is the end. Nothing will sprout or yield crops on the plateau; nothing will save you now. But you live long, and you will live very long in arrogant isolation, fewer and fewer of you, growing weaker and weaker, more and more bitter. And you know what’ll happen then. You know that desperate young men with the eyes of hundred-year-old men and withered, barren and sick girls like Toruviel will lead those who can still hold a sword and bow in their hands, down into the valleys. You’ll come down into the blossoming valleys to meet death, wanting to die honorably, in battle, and not in sickbeds of misery, where anemia, tuberculosis, and scurvy will send you. Then, long-living Aen Seidhe, you’ll remember me. You’ll remember that I pitied you. And you’ll understand that I was right.”

Filavandrel responds:

[Reading]“Time will tell who was right. And herein lies the advantage of longevity. I’ve got a chance of finding out, if only because of that stolen handful of grain. You won’t have a chance like that. You’ll die shortly.”

OLEG

Do you sympathize with Filavandrel’s or Geralt's position more?

ALYSSA

I think, me being me, I would just argue for cohabitation just in general. I’m, like, much of a pacifist. There's very little advantage to be have for just extending life for the sake of living just for the sake of holding on to something that's not death. That's just me personally, where I don't think that pride and a pedigree, like, for lack of a better word, is something that's desperately worth holding onto in this context. I think that it's one of those things where, in order to actually build a fulfilling form of existence for yourself and for your future descendants, it's going to be important to cohabitate. But I think that there's something to be said about the possibility of procreation with each other. And I think the stripping down of ego and pride when it comes to survival. Yeah. I mean, what about you?

OLEG

I think I actually sympathize with Filavandrel’s overall argument. I do feel like Filavandrel argues well for why they haven't cohabitated in an equal, you know, fashion and everything else. I think Filavandrel has a point. You know what? Maybe I'm overly optimistic. And I've just kind of always been a bit of an idealist. So, I've always wanted to live forever. And I think, if you give someone unlimited gos at a problem, eventually, they'll figure it out. So, I think the guy has a good point that, if they can keep trying–kind of like a little roadmap. Like, first, let's get this agriculture thing down more or less to stop starving. Then they can start building like a sick kingdom in the mountains. And then, all of a sudden, it's another light of elven civilization. And then they start sending out representatives to be diplomatic with the humans. Here you are: they’re cohabiting kind of in a Lord of the Rings type situation, where maybe they're really close, but they live well as neighbors. And, eventually, certain ones will interbreed and you'll see the whole continent changing. Geralt has this–again, he talks about why, why die, why ride down from the mountains and kill everyone?

ALYSSA

I mean I think he's anticipating, one day, when they have nothing left to really live for, they're not gonna want to be on sickbeds. Instead of dying just in the mountains, like, I guess, “dishonorably,” they're going to want some sort of fraught death, death that's earned, and death that has some sort of—

OLEG

Dignity?

ALYSSA

—you know, pride or veneration in it. They want to die in battle. I think Geralt can see that even in the way that Filavandrel even just talks about the pride of living. I think he makes the, I would just say, the correct assumption that they would seek pride and death as well.

OLEG

Why does it have to be in the death of those poor Posada residents? You know what I mean? My point is like there's hope for them; either be on equal ground or even winning over.

ALYSSA

As Geralt and Filavandrel wrap up their discussion, Filavandrel orders them bound to trees in preparation to shoot them. This excerpt reads:

[Reading] “I can hear… music…” Dandelion suddenly sobbed.

“It happens,” said the Witcher, looking at the arrowheads. “Don’t worry. There’s no shame in fear.”

Filavandrel’s face changed, screwed up in a strange grimace. The white-haired Seidhe suddenly turned round and gave a shout to the archers. They lowered their weapons.

Lille entered the glade.

She was no longer a skinny peasant girl in a sackcloth dress. Through the grasses covering the glade walked — no, not walked — floated a queen, radiant, golden-haired, fiery-eyed, ravishing. The Queen of the Fields, decorated with garlands of flowers, ears of corn, bunches of herbs. At her left-hand side, a young stag pattered on stiff legs. At her right rustled an enormous hedgehog.

“Dana Meadbh,” said Filavandrel with veneration. And then bowed and knelt. The remaining elves also knelt; slowly, reluctantly, they fell to their knees one after the other and bowed their heads low in veneration. Toruviel was the last to kneel.

“Hael, Dana Meadbh,” repeated Filavandrel. Lille didn’t answer. She stopped several paces short of the elf and swept her blue eyes over Dandelion and Geralt. Torque, while bowing, started cutting through the knots. None of the Seidhe moved. Lille stood in front of Filavandrel. She didn’t say anything, didn’t make the slightest sound, but the Witcher saw the changes on the elf’s face, sensed the aura surrounding them, and was in no doubt they were communicating. The devil suddenly pulled at his sleeve.

Like, one of the things that I find funny–like, I know she's supposed to be absolutely beautiful and radiant. And, if you see, like, renderings of the Lille/Dana Meadbh, she's stunning. But, at the same time, I just wonder about the actual logistics of carrying around corn on your head. And I feel like that's high-key stressful to just be decorated with fucking corn and that—

OLEG

The hedgehog is hilarious.

ALYSSA

Yeah, the hedgehog—

OLEG

—because I imagined that guy that was a hedgehog–yeah.

ALYSSA

We talked about that in “A Question of Price.”

OLEG

Yeah.

ALYSSA

So, in the last episode with Cyprian, “A Question of Price”, we do talk about–in English, Urcheon, who is a… a hedgehog. In any renderings that I've seen of Dana Meadbh, the hedgehog is normal hedgehog-sized. But, when I first read this description, I imagined, like, a waist-high Pokemon-sized, like, hedgehog. And it's a really fucking intense.

OLEG

I imagine like a dude, you, standing on hind legs, and his hedgehog needles are almost like a mullet shape. You know what I mean? He’s that–he’s that guy.

ALYSSA

Oh, so, like Sonic?

OLEG

Maybe he’s Sonic. You know, she was this simple village girl. Now, she’s kind of this teenager went through puberty, and just has all this like shit she's carrying around.

ALYSSA

Yeah. Yeah

OLEG

You know, like, like the Gucci bag, like the hedgehog. You know, typical.

ALYSSA

Yeah. Bb’s got, like, just a lot of stuff.

OLEG

Like a Kardashian, you know, but with like nature stuff.

ALYSSA

This is incredibly interesting, because I think there's a lot that we don't totally understand as readers. Lille comes in. It turns out that she's a goddess and she's a deity, which makes it a lot clearer as to why locals of Lower Posada venerate her. They're drawn to her without really being able to articulate why. And she's not only possibly human deity, but also an elven one, but in a very tangible way where it's not just a religion, like, these elves actually know her as some sort of being.

OLEG

And it's interesting. They interact with her. You could see the way the elves interact with nature and the humans interact with nature. And it reflects on this as well.

ALYSSA

The fact that there are multiple races that have this kind of deity says a lot about the universality of religion or what they kind of value and venerate as different societies. So, there is, as you said, still respect for nature from humans, from elves. And they are represented in this one deity, Dana Meadbh or Lille stops this execution from happening. Filavandrel presumably tries to, like, argue with her. She telepathically communicates with him, and all the elves just saddle up. Filavandrel asks Dana Meadbh to come with them. She just shakes her head and directs them back to the Blue Mountains. And they just leave.

OLEG

She's like, “Nah, you gotta get the fuck out of here,” you know.

ALYSSA

I know. I know. And it's, it's heartbreaking.

OLEG

I don't like her.

ALYSSA

It is heartbreaking to a degree. I think it begs a lot of questions about why these people among this population and in this region.

OLEG

So, there's religions and deities, and it's just how people interpret, right? But what about when you actually meet the being tangibly? Like, how I guess interpretable is she? Because—

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

—she's right there physically. She looks like this. She says this. She acts like this. So, she's real. You know I mean?

ALYSSA

Yeah. There's not a lot of understanding about how this works. Just after the old woman and Lille leave early in the chapter, either Dhun or Nettly says [paraphrased], “The old woman always takes a new young girl under her wing. And we never know where the young girl comes from, but then the young girl becomes the old woman. And then the old woman takes another young girl under her wing. We didn't know where our old woman came from.”

The mechanics of, I guess, like a deity–I don't know if it's like possession or something like that.

OLEG

And at what point do they transition?

ALYSSA

That's the thing. It’s like—

OLEG

At what point does the spirit leave the aging woman and go into that next girl walking into the village or wherever she, she is at?

ALYSSA

Who knows? I mean it's, like, does it manifest as multiple people? Or, is it only like, “possession” for lack of a better word of, like, another person? Are these not necessarily people or children that are being taken over? But rather is it just like a new form that materializes where they just create forms that didn't necessarily come from something tangible? It's not really certain. It begs a lot of questions from Sapkowski about, like, “How the fuck does this work?”

OLEG

It's like the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Lord God, Jesus, Son of God. And then—

ALYSSA

Yeah. We, we don't have any answers, unfortunately. We just know her presence is what makes Dol Blathanna blossom or, at least, I think we can assume as much.

OLEG

Mhmm.

ALYSSA

And that she is some sort of goddess of harvest. We don't know to what extent she, I guess, meddles in human affairs, but she has the opportunity as a “prophetess” to influence the changing of agriculture and of culture in these outposts at the end of the world.

At the end of this chapter, Dana Meadbh sends away the elves. We see repeated phrasing, which is something that I really love in Sapkowski’s work, where he has continual thematic callbacks. And, in these two small excerpts, it says:

[Reading] Dandelion walked up, pale, and dumbfounded, supported by the sylvan. Lille looked at him and smiled. She looked into the Witcher’s eyes. She looked long. She didn’t say a word. Words weren’t necessary.

And, a bit later, Geralt addresses Toruviel:

[Reading] The elf nods. From her saddlebow, she took a lute, a marvelous instrument of light, tastefully inlaid wood with a slender, engraved neck. Without a word, she handed the lute to Dandelion. The poet accepted the instrument and smiled. Also, without a word, but his eyes said a great deal.

So, I just like his repeated use of silence at the end and of being able to communicate wordlessly and universally. There's something nice about this in the context of race relations specifically. And this idea of thematic callbacks is something that we see repeatedly in Sapkowski’s work where he constantly brings about ideas, not only through the saga as a whole but also through specific stories. The third book in the saga, Baptism of Fire, is one of my favorites for this reason specifically because he constantly brings about one specific theme in different contexts. And I love that about his work and we get a hint of it here.

OLEG

I kind of wish they did more talking, because I feel like it's, like, words weren't needed, but the elves and the humans quietly parted without settling their differences.

ALYSSA

There is the end of the section though, where Filavandrel tells Geralt, “I hope Toruviel and I see you when we go down from the mountains to meet our death.” Geralt just says, “I'll try,” or something to that effect. I don't know if there was any real conclusion there. But I think, at least, in this specific moment, there's a certain amount of acceptance I think on Filavandrel’s part. “We're gonna agree to disagree. And I'll see you when it's time for me to die.”

OLEG

Very bleak.

ALYSSA

Yeah. It's pretty–it's, it's pretty grim.

OLEG

I also thought it was–you could tell some of that, like, you know, the world is shit attitude with Geralt when Dana Meadbh first arrived. And Dandelion is, like, “Oh, I think I hear music?”

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

And Geralt, like, “Don't worry. It’s just fear.”

ALYSSA

Yeah. Yeah.

OLEG

Like, don't, don't be–he's, like, “No, I think I fucking hear music.” And, like, “That happens when you're about to die.”

ALYSSA

Right.

OLEG

Like, the interpretation right away is, like, “Yeah. You're just getting ready to die, man, you know.”

ALYSSA

Uh huh. After the elves leave, we move into Part VI. The Witcher, bard, and sylvan camp. At his companions urging, Geralt reads an excerpt from the Old Booke, which he took from the freemen, about Dana Meadbh.

It's not really clear whether Gerald stole this from them or if he talked the villagers out of it. But, yes, so, he inherits this, like, completely priceless book. He adorably reads to the sylvan and the bard around the campfire. I'm going to do my best to read this ridiculous Old English:

[Reading] “Glimpsed she may be, during the time of sumor, from the days of Mai and Juyn to the days of October, but most oft this haps on the Feste of the Scythe, which ancients would call Lammas. She revealeth herself as the Fairhaired Ladie, in flowers all, and all that liveth followeth her path and clingeth to her, as one, plant or beast. Hence her name is Lyfia. Ancients call her Danamebi and venerate her greatly. Even the Bearded, albeit in mountains not on fields they dwell, respect and call her Bloemenmagde.”

And Geralt continues:

[Reading] “Whence Lyfia treads the earth blossometh and bringeth forth, and abundantly doth each creature breed, such is her might. All nations to her offer sacrifice of harvest in vain hope their field not another’s will by Lyfia visited be. Because it is also said that there cometh a day at end when Lyfia will come to settle among the tribe which above all others will rise, but these be mere womenfolk tales. Because, forsooth, the wise do say that Lyfia loveth but one land and that which groweth on it and liveth alike, with no difference, be it the smallest of common apple trees or the most wretched of insects, and all nations are no more to her than that thinnest of trees because, forsooth, they too will be gone and new, different tribes will follow. But Lyfia eternal is, was and ever shall be until the end of time.”

So, from this, you know, dated old book, we finally get like a nugget of good, good information. And we kind of get an understanding of–a possible understanding for why she told the elves to leave. It says here that people venerate her and bring her offerings in hope that she'll bring about a good harvest in their fields. But we also see here that the book notes that might be silly because she is tied to a specific land, not harvest as a whole. But she's tied to specific land and we can presume that this is Dol Blathanna. That she's always tied to the land, and she'll be eternal no matter who's actually there. So, it brings about I think, like, an interesting insight into her character’s actions throughout the short story.

OLEG

Going back to whether she's the goddess or just an avatar of the goddess. And maybe–yeah. Maybe it's just one of the avatars. You know, she's kind of a rep for the Valley of Flowers like a company would have, like, northeast rep or the Southern United States, you know. So, she’s just a rep for that area. She just deals with customers “from that area,” you know.

ALYSSA

Yeah. Yeah.

OLEG

And then the elves were, like, “Oh, you know–you know, our Verizon’s down in Canada or whatever.” And she's, like, “Sorry, I’m region New York.” You know what I mean?

ALYSSA

Right. Right.

OLEG

So, right, it's out of my jurisdiction or whatever.

ALYSSA

There's an excerpt. Geralt and Dandelion, and the sylvan are talking:

[Reading] Dandelion asks, “She spoke to the elf telepathically. I sensed it. I’m right, aren’t I, Geralt? After all, you can sense communication like that. Did you understand what … what she was getting across to the elf?” And Geralt says, “Some of it.” “What was she talking about?” And Geralt translates, “Hope that things renew themselves, and won’t stop doing so.”

It, again, I think doubles down on the description of her in that old book. There's this idea of regeneration, of regrowth. No matter kind of what happens, it's eternal to, to an extent. And [laughs] that's a funny phrase, “Eternal to an extent.”

OLEG

Yeah.

ALYSSA

You know, she's been around forever. Baby girl is going to be around for the rest of time. I don't know. I feel like it's one of those things. There's like a Stoic exercise that's referred to as, like, the view from above, where you look at yourself, and your problems, and your issues as a human, as a person, and as an individual. How important are they, kind of, in the grand scheme of everything that's going on in the world right now, but also over the course of time? And it's, like, mhmm, I could deal with the subway doors closing in my face. Like, in the grand scheme of life, it's not actually that, you know, important. It's not worth getting upset or angry by or passionate about. I feel like that's part of what this discussion is here. Yes, this could change the tide of either the course of elves, the course of humanity, but, ultimately, when you kind of look at the issues that are plaguing these tribes right now, that there's probably something larger at play. And it's going to be fine. It's what I think she tries to get across to them.

OLEG

Right. That's–that's interesting. And I think that's a philosophy, a lot of times, people use to even kind of make people feel more peaceful and calm. But, nevertheless, I feel like we’re all biologically wired to feel bothered by our immediate problems and suffer from them. And, surely—

ALYSSA

And to mortality, too.

OLEG

Right. Right. That might sound good, but, nevertheless, you know, the elves are starving and—

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

—people die. And, if the subway does shut and not let you go home and get sleep or whatever, you know. So—

ALYSSA

Oh, my god. And then you get, like, a Sliding Doors situation, where your whole life changes.

OLEG

The subway effect.

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

Yeah. No. I guess it's, like, poetic. It's pretty. And, for me, when I read these things, it's interesting, but I always pick at them in a maybe more base way. Same with Gerald being so, like, “Hope.” You know, just answering with one word or saying before, “Words aren't needed.”

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

Like, it's, like, come on, bro. You know, just like tell us everything she said, and let's discuss everything. Let's talk about it, because—

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

—it sounds nice, but I feel like words are needed. And I'm more of always a supporter of open discussion. Words are needed. Say them.

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

Let's use them to figure stuff out. Let's help alleviate people's suffering on a micro level instead of this macro where everything will be alright. Well—

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

This guy is starving now. Let's help this guy. It's not gonna alleviate poverty, but maybe we can help that guy for now.

ALYSSA

Right.

OLEG

And, if everyone does a little bit, you know, I guess ethics.

ALYSSA

I've practiced Etoicism on and off as a philosophy in the last, about two years. So, I've immersed myself in it at different points. It's one of those things that I can see some of the values of Stoicism in Dana Meadbh as a character. I mean the core of Stoicism really hits at this idea of rationality and pro-sociality. And I think that that's something that you still do see in this, this idea of being true to nature, our own human nature, which consists of rationality and pro-sociality. And considering the whole above the self, I think, is part of that as well. And I think that that's a common misconception about Stoicism, but that's something that I find valuable about the philosophy.

OLEG

Yeah. And, speaking about nature, I really enjoy the nature imagery just throughout the chapter. You know, like the descriptions of the mountains—

ALYSSA

Mhmm.

OLEG

—you know, going on forever. The Blue Mountains, the fields, rivers, lakes, greenery, and just the epic idea of the phrase, “The Edge of the World.”

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

You know, like, I could see it, “Coming soon. The Edge of the World,” you know, or something.

ALYSSA

And you did have a very interesting note about the end of this chapter that you're describing, right?

OLEG

At the end, the very end of the chapter, the story, you have Dandelion. And he's writing about a ballad or he's getting–he's gathering material to write a ballad. And he's thinking of a metaphorical way to say the edge of the world to name his ballad. And he says, “That's too literal. I don't want to call it, “The Edge of the World.” It’s kind of funny, because that's what the chapter and short story is called. And then I guess this doesn't really work in any translation except the original Polish one. But then, as he's coming up with names, Torque says, “Good night,” right?

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

And Torque is “a devil.”

ALYSSA

Yeah.

OLEG

So, it alludes to the Polish idiom, “Gdzie diabeł mówi dobranoc,” which means, “Where the Devil says goodnight,” which refers—in Polish with that idiom—to a place in the middle of nowhere or the edge of the world.

ALYSSA

Yeah, which is very poetic. And I'm–like, I would never, obviously, have gotten that, because they don't have the cultural context around that as like a idiom. But I'm really glad that you brought that up, and that you brought it into it, because it adds this level of poetry to the prose. It's just fucking cool. [Laughs]

OLEG

Yeah. Yeah. And—

ALYSSA

Like, it's a very cool use of language and the original Polish.

OLEG

Right. Right. And, to our Polish friends, if I mispronounce any of those Polish words: Sheprasha.

ALYSSA

So, that takes us to the end of the chapter. That's it for our show today. Oleg, thanks so much for joining us for this episode. And thank you to our Hanza for listening. Where can people find you? And is there anything that our community can help you with or anything you’d like to share with them?

OLEG

Thank you, Alyssa. Thank you very much for having me. This has been a lot of fun, and thank you for introducing me to the series, because it’s, it’s awesome.

ALYSSA

And introducing you to this giant ass blanket fort in my apartment.

OLEG

She's being humble. Professional studio at least. The best place to find me probably on social media, my Instagram. It's Oleg, like my name, O-L-E-G_chucha. (@oleg_chucha) Like, it’s a play on my last name C-H-U-C-H-A. And I'm working on some stuff for Russian podcasts, but there was nothing concrete to mention. So—

ALYSSA

Obviously, if you create anything, I'd be super happy to share it with our listeners in the future.

OLEG

Thank you. Thank you.

ALYSSA

And tell people to support your show. So, next episode, I will appropriately third-wheel one of my favorite couples as we learn how Geralt met his fated love, Yennefer, in the title story, “The Last Wish.”