The creator of the stoned frog and his three unambitious roommates says Pepe is ‘all about diversity’ despite the cartoon having been used in a Trump meme

Perhaps no cartoon frog has been as thoroughly maligned during the 2016 election as Matt Furie’s hapless Pepe. The meme-friendly, often crudely drawn amphibian has lately been seen smiling, sporting Trump-like hair and standing menacingly behind the Republican presidential nominee in a photoshopped lineup of The Deplorables, a play on Hillary Clinton’s dismissal of many of the candidate’s supporters belonging in a “basket of deplorables”.



The Clinton campaign posted an under-informed explainer about Pepe, describing him as a “symbol associated with white supremacy”, though they admit he has been “enjoyed by teenagers and pop stars alike” in the past.

San Francisco cartoonist and painter Furie created Pepe as part of his laid-back cartoon Boy’s Club, which was collected in print by comics publisher Fantagraphics this July. The easygoing strip chronicles the adventures of four roommates – Pepe, Andy, Brett and the malicious Landwolf – who spend a lot of time getting high, farting, spouting catchphrases and generally behaving like people who think Pepe memes are funny. Furie says Pepe himself is not into Nazis or Klansmen. “If anything, he’d be part of the Green party,” he tells the Guardian.

Furie, also a witty painter with a fine arts background, explains why he likes the crude reworkings of his careful linework, why he loves The Far Side, and why he’s ultimately voting for Hillary Clinton, whether or not she likes his frog drawing.

Facebook Twitter Pinterest Matt Furie’s Pepe the Frog from his graphic novel Boy’s Club. Photograph: Courtesy of the artist

Congratulations on the book. Is it selling a lot of copies?

You know, I don’t know how it’s doing! I hope it’s doing well. Pepe’s kind of hitting peak interest with people in the media right now, so I’m kinda trying to utilize that and twist it into talking about the origins of Pepe, which is in this modest comic book I did. A lot of people are just not familiar with Pepe as he lives as a comic book persona – kind of a more simple-minded, chill frog. And now he’s taken on the multiple faces of whatever’s going on in the crazy world out there. I just want to bring it back down to earth a little bit at the moment.

Landwolf feels like a much more appropriate avatar for malcontents than Pepe.



Definitely.



What was it like seeing The Deplorables picture with the characters replaced with famous heads including Pepe’s?



I’ve only just seen this stuff recently because everyone’s sending it to me, including, like, media people. Honestly I don’t really follow it very much but you can’t ignore it. It’s all over the place. It’s not the first time I’ve ever seen Pepe as Donald Trump. When I first saw it I thought it was kind of funny.

I don’t take it too seriously – I just try to take it in stride, but the thing that’s come to my attention is ... well, I didn’t know what white nationalists were until, like, yesterday. And the alt-right or whatever? It’s all very new and very strange and definitely not something that I support. I guess Pepe is kind of its own internet thing now. I’m hoping not to get any hate or threats or anything. You have to do a little bit of research to even link it back to me, I think.

You don’t sound like you’re a particularly political guy. Do you have any temptation to align yourself one way or another as stuff heats up before the election?



My interests lie more in philosophical or spiritual books, and politics come and go. But yeah, I’m interested in it. I’m particularly interested in environmental stuff, more like humanitarian stuff. I definitely lean much more liberal – basically the opposite of what’s happening with Pepe right now.



Roger Stone (@RogerJStoneJr) I am so proud to be one of the Deplorables #Trump2016 pic.twitter.com/IFD1hfC60w

Can I ask who you’re voting for?



Well, I was really excited for Bernie, and that fizzled out, so I guess I’m gonna have to take one for the team and go for Hillary even though she’s talking smack, or whoever’s writing for her at the moment is talking smack about Pepe.

I’m surprised at how little I’ve seen you or Boy’s Club written about in stories on Pepe.

Beyond Boy’s Club, I think it’s even more familiar as a meme for youth culture and teenagers. It’s weird that people are saying he’s been “a longtime white supremacist meme”. If anything he’d be part of the Green party. He’s a frog, why would he support white supremacists? That doesn’t make any sense.

He’s not even the right species.



He lives with a dog, a wolf, a kind of abstract Muppet creature ... he’s all about diversity.



Is it weird to have to have these arguments?



It’s just funny. People are taking it really seriously and it’s a damn cartoon frog. It’s weird on some level but it’s more entertaining than anything.

A lot of the fun in Boy’s Club comes from the dated pop culture references that are now funny because they remind you of embarrassing trends. How do you dig up stuff with the embarrassing nostalgia vibe?



I think it’s just growing up in the culture that we live in where it’s very catchphrase-oriented and referential to whatever was popular and kind of formed your imagination over the years. For me it was the Muppets and the Neverending Story and the Terminator and the Predator and all these things that were so cool when you were a kid, at least in terms of more lowbrow art.

Facebook Twitter Pinterest Paintings in progress by Matt Furie. Photograph: Courtesy of the artist

If you look at a guy who grew up in the 60s, he’d be into Rat Fink culture or car culture; there’s a moment in time where if you’re a musician who came out of the 90s, you were influenced by Led Zeppelin and the Beatles and whoever else. Art just kinda manifests based on when that stuff was most important to you, and you kinda regurgitate it in your own art. it’s just part of the cycle of that kind of thing.

What’s it like to be contributing to that now?



It’s kinda cool. I put out a series of Pepe official T-shirts, and one of them is a button-up collared shirt that has all my favorite Pepes from the internet, which are these more crudely drawn, childlike and funny drawings that it looks like kids are doing on MS Paint.

So I collected them all and made a pattern out of them. It’s kind of like a bootleg of the bootleg. It’s a meta-bootleg. I’m using some of it to my advantage! I’ll be walking down the street in a college town and some kids will pass me and be like “Oh, cool, Pepe!” It is neat that they have no idea that I made the character but they’re stoked to see an old dude walking down the street with Pepes all over his shirt. That’s satisfying to me.

How old are you?



I’m 37.

That’s not that old.



Yeah but you know, when you’re 20 a 37-year-old dude is old, you know?

That’s true. You might as well be dead to them.



I know, right?

Does the quality of those Microsoft Paint-style drawings not bother you?



I’m actually quite influenced by crude art and children’s art and stuff like that. It just opens up the possibility so much. People think: “If they can do that, I can do it too!” So just as an artist I’ve always wanted to have a lot of fundamentals under my belt in terms of how to draw a hand and an eyeball and a face and stuff like that; but then I like to just have that knowledge and do more simplified things. I’m not bothered by it at all.

Facebook Twitter Pinterest Landwolf and Pepe in a tender encounter. Photograph: Courtesy of the artist

What did you read growing up that influenced or inspired you?



I was big into The Far Side growing up. In particular there was one of Gumby being tortured – a couple of mobsters have him on the rack and they’re trying to stretch him out to get him to say something and he just couldn’t be bothered by it. I love that absurd, offbeat humor. I was into Garfield and less of the superhero stuff – more simple cartoon animals.

As I got into my twenties I really got into Paper Rad, in particular Ben Jones [creator of Cartoon Network’s influential, eye-piercing Flash cartoon Problem Solverz]. He had a really straightforward, simple way of making these funny comics where you didn’t have to have action sequences or tons of dialogue and stuff. It made it possible for me to be like, “Oh! I could do a comic!”

What is your hope for Pepe post-election?



I think Pepe will live on beyond whatever’s going on in the moment politically. It does, for whatever reason, resonate with kids. I think things kinda happen in 20-year cycles, so I want to go back to Pepe 20 years from now.

The reunion tour.



Totally.