Welcome back to Inside the Outsider, a discussion about the HBO adaptation of Stephen King’s bestselling novel The Outsider with horror aficionado Ryan Bradford. Each week the discussion will alternate between Message from the Underworld and Ryan’s newsletter, AwkwardSD. This week it’s my turn.

In Episode 4: “Que Viene el Coco,” director Andrew Bernstein digs deeper into detective Holly Gibney’s psyche, but the story gets more diffuse. The main plotline concerns Holly’s investigation into a murder in Dayton, Ohio, that is eerily similar to the situation in Cherokee City, and leads her to yet another baffling murder in New York City.

The New York case, however, has one major difference: the alleged murderer, thanks to a healthy belief in God and plenty of street savvy is keeping herself alive at Riker’s Island. Holly’s visit with Maria Canelas is illuminating, but brief. Unfortunately, the plague of grief that enveloped the Petersons continues to spread like a virus in Dayton and New York.

Meanwhile back in Cherokee City, Detective Ralph Anderson continues to work the case, Glory Maitland deals with the town turning against her, and Jack Hoskins keeps getting weirder and weirder.

JR: So, Ryan, we had a feeling that at some point the series would diverge from the book, but did you expect it to happen so sharply or so quickly?

RB: Episode 4 was a bit of a comedown for me compared to the first three episodes. And I don't mean that as a sleight to the show—just the relentlessness that's come before. As we talked about last time, there have been been plenty of scares, creeping dread, and heavy emotions, so I'm not too bugged that this expository episode seemed like a slight reprieve. It felt like the show was catching its breath.

As you said, there are some major divergences from the book in this episode, but I still think the book is laced into those narrative choices. I think Holly's decision to travel to NYC to investigate the chain of murders prior to Heath Hofstadter (the inmate who killed himself in Episode 3) is a smart narrative choice, but I don't know if it really falls too far out of line with King's book. I mean, Heath's treatment in the book is so passive that I can imagine a lot of backstory being cut at the behest of some editor trying to move the story along (jk, we all know that no editor ever tells SK to do anything). That is, the divergences in this episode seem like extra scenes that didn't fit in the book, but still belong in the book. (P.S. I was briefly very excited when they mentioned Hofstadter's last name because I thought it was a shout-out to Patrick Hockstetter, the most terrifying bully in King's IT).

But what did you think about El Coco? The introduction to that concept was a lot different than in the book. How do you feel about that scene? And what are your thoughts on that creature in general, and about myth? This show is delving pretty heavily into themes and systems of belief, yeah?

JR: Well, since I'm not a SK apologist, I have to disagree. Maria Canelas is an entirely new creation. She's not in the book, nor is she implied. Her role isn't simply backstory; Holly Gibney interviews her in prison as part of her investigation. Also, the parking lot attendant/former detective whose "heart is pure" is also new. Price and his writers have made the show their own and I'm here for it.

As for El Coco, I don't know how I feel about it yet to be honest, I think the ending where Holly is clicking on images in the bathtub was one of the weakest scenes in the series so far. Those screams each time she clicked on an image were incredibly corny, like X-Files at its worst. You can sense the show's eagerness to get on with it, but right now all we've got is a pattern of murders with conflicting evidence, some boogeyman mythology, and a cop who's getting very erratic. What do you make of Jack's shopping spree?

RB: Lol, those screams. Yeah, I love it when filmmakers try to make web browsing scary. Also, were you not concerned for Holly's computer in that scene? Oh, and I loved the added scenes with Glory: threatened at the restaurant and kicking an undercover journalist out of her home. This show is doing a great job of giving her agency and keeping the Maitlands in the story.

I have no clue what Jack's shopping spree was about. I mean, obviously he's acquiring stuff for the outsider, but given the randomness of the items, it's hard to know what they're going to be used for. Jack reminds me of Renfield, and I really like how they're playing up that relationship in the show (that explicit comparison is only mentioned briefly in the book). Jack is terrifying even without being under the command of some parasitic shape-shifter. An aggro cop is about as scary as it gets. How do you feel about this show's treatment of law enforcement?

JR: Although I didn't like the ending, I really liked Episode 4. I think it's really smart to focus on one detective at a time, and in this episode Holly is the story's main focus, but I honestly don't know how to read Ralph's body language in this episode. Have you noticed that we see Ralph in a lot of vulnerable positions? Lots of slouching, sitting, and leaning against walls? Decades of television watching have trained us to believe that detective work happens lone wolf style, when in real life communal policing is the norm. I think The Outsider gets that because Price knows his stuff. From other books of his I've read, I gather Price hangs out with cops for fun. Now that's a scary thought.

But back to Ralph and his expression when he holds up the sketch of the man Merlin saw in the parking lot. Is that the look of someone baffled or apologizing for wasting everyone's time? And his interaction with Claude in the strip club was odd. The way he bolted seemed very peculiar. I think he saw something that we'll see later. My guess is that he saw a mirror in the strip club that will provide a new camera angle. Not that I know anything about how strip clubs are furnished...

RB: You're not fooling anyone, Jim. I've seen your punch cards. But you're right about Ralph's composure and posture, especially throughout this episode where we feel the tedium of police work and analyzing surveillance videos over and over again. But I think he can use that unassuming behavior to hide some keen detective work. My take on the whole strip club scene was just him gauging Claude's reaction. Ralph knows Claude was scratched, but now has to figure out what to do with Claude's denial.

I was going to bring up that shot with the drawing. That scene is such a testament to Ben Mendelsohn's acting ability, because there's so much in that deflated reaction. I can't tell if it's an apology, hopelessness, or some childlike fear of accepting what they’re really dealing with. It's also interesting the way they framed that shot, in that it focuses on Ralph's character instead of the drawing. I actually had to rewind it to see what the drawing looked like because I thought we were going to get a straight-on shot.

JR: I did too.

RB: This show's unorthodox framing is really great, and I've read some people think it's overkill, but I'm all for it. Also, did you notice that scene when Jack is staring at the arrest report, the name on it is: Sekaya H. Harris. I looked that up and it's the name of the show's props coordinator, but the lens focus on it seemed significant. That's the cool thing about this show—It's turning us into detectives! Can I call you my Hardy Bro?

JR: You may not.

RB: Did anything scare you in this episode?

JR: Yes, the scene in which Hofstadter's elderly mother gets up, leaves the house, and exits the frame. That moment before the car started and I realized she'd left without shutting the door filled me with dread. I think the show is doing an excellent job of showing the collateral damage caused by each child murder.

We haven't talked about how the viewer is privy to things that the detectives are not—like that scene with Maria Canelas, there's a moment at the beginning of the show where she's sitting in the diner with Heath Hofstadter and she goes dead-eyed. It's clear by the end of the episode that we're not seeing Maria, a devout and faithful believer in God, but the creature.

What do think we're in for in Episode 5?

RB: I didn't even notice that she didn't shut the door. Wow. I think this episode did a fine job of conveying how disease-like the outsider's powers are, which I don't think quite got across in the book. Heath's mother, plus Maria's father and uncle, not to mention Holly's brief chat with the bartender in which they float the idea of "catching murder"—it's all giving the show a nice and horrifying biology.

As for the next episode, I hope we get some good outsider action. We've seen glimpses and a drawing of what the book refers to as "The Play Doh Man," but this episode feels like it's setting us up something a little more substantial. We also got Maria's confession that they'll throw her in the loony bin if she reveals the name of the person who started this chain of murder, and I'm assuming she's referring to El Coco. I hope we see that background story.

JR: I think you’re taking it too literally. I think Maria’s cultural familiarity with El Coco legends and her fervent belief in God that sits on a throne in a place called heaven make her more likely to believe that a supernatural being is responsible for what happened to her. That is what’s keeping her sane, but I don’t think she has a better idea as to who or what the detectives are dealing with than Heath Hofstadter or Terry Maitland did. This is my fundamental problem with King: he wants to have it both ways: it’s a myth and a monster. It’s a ghost and has a physical presence. It came to me in a dream and left residue on the carpet. Pick a lane, Stephen!

Inside the Outsider continue next Wednesday after Episode 5 at Ryan’s newsletter AwkwardSD so hit that subscribe button and hit it hard.

BTS with Michael Chabon

Usually the first question people ask when I tell them I’ve interviewed a well-known writer or musician is, “What are they really like?” It doesn’t matter if they read the piece in question or not, people are curious. So I thought I’d take you behind the scenes of my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Michael Chabon for the Los Angeles Times. If you haven’t read it, you might want to do so now.

Incidentally, my Michael Chabon fandom began in mysterious fashion. I was living in Manhattan Beach and stepped outside to get some coffee when I saw a package on the doormat: A VHS of Wonder Boys, placed on top of a paperback of Wonder Boys, sitting on top of a screenplay of Wonder Boys, all bound in a blood-red ribbon. Did I have a secret admirer? Did someone place this bounty of wonder at the wrong door? I never did find out, but I accepted the gift, read the book, and watched the movie; I’ve been a fan ever since.

My email request to speak with Chabon got bounced around for weeks until it found its way to the right person at CBS, who was very interested in doing a story. By that time Chabon was attending premieres in London and Berlin for Star Trek: Picard, which Chabon wrote. It’s also Chabon’s first turn as a showrunner and that experience, as well as his Star Trek fandom, were the main points of the piece. So when he returned from abroad, we were up against a very tight deadline. At that point, the interview, which took place over the phone, came together very quickly.

But one doesn’t talk to Michael Chabon, author of Wonder Boys, The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, and The Yiddish Policemen’s Union, and just talk about Star Trek.

I don’t know if Chabon was driving or being driven (I suspect the former) but he was in a car for our interview. I found him to be extremely earnest and thoughtful in his responses. For instance, after he mentioned that he was born in Columbia, Maryland, I told him I grew up in Falls Church, Virginia, and we chatted for a bit about the planned communities of Columbia and Reston, which were something like rivals. Who knew?

I also confessed to being more of a fan of Star Wars than Star Trek and here’s what he said: “[i]t’s not at all mutually exclusive for someone to be both a Star Trek and a Star Wars fan. I was already a dyed-in-the-wool Star Trek fan when Star Wars came out in 1977, and I went to see it 17 times in theaters. I loved it also. They’re very different. To me Star Wars is much more of an epic fantasy dressed in the clothing and trappings of science fiction, more than actual science fiction. I love epic fantasy. Wizards. Magic. It’s all about believing in things that you can’t see. Sort of the opposite of science fiction.”

Before moving on from Star Trek, I asked him if being a showrunner was the most difficult thing he’s ever had to do: “I have four children,” he quipped. “So maybe not the most, but second most.”

Chabon will be involved in Star Trek: Picard next season, but he won’t be the showrunner. That’s because he’s going to be working on adapting his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, into a miniseries for Showtime. This is a very big deal for Chabon because he struggled for many years trying to get the book made into a feature film. He spent five years working on the screenplay (!) and on at least two occasions had stars attached to the project, and then… pfffft. Fade out. The end. I glibly suggested that now was the perfect time for The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay to hit the small screen. His answer surprised me:

“The Handmaiden’s Tale,The Dark Castle, and other recent adaptations of novels into multi-part TV series, show it can be an incredibly and powerfully effective medium to translate a novel. That hasn’t been true with the exception of that brief period of TV miniseries in the ‘70s and early ‘80s. It’s kind of a revolution, as we all know, so from that point of view, yeah. Aside from the general resurgence and interest in costumed super heroes, it’s also a story of immigrants and how immigrants created this country both physically and it’s idea of itself. Characters like Superman and Captain America were created by the children of Jewish immigrants. It’s also the story of a refugee from fascist terror. So I think that’s something that could feel very timely as well.”

Lastly, I asked him what the most gratifying part of his experience as a showrunner has been. His answer isn’t revelatory or all that surprising, but it’s earnest. I thought it would make a nice ending to the story, but I ended up going in another direction instead. So I’ll end with it here:

“I think maybe the most gratifying thing of all has just happened very recently, which is encountering fans and plunging into the world of Star Trekfandom for the first time in a very long time. The night of the premiere in L.A. there was a large contingent of fans in cosplay who got to come in and see the premiere. Just being with them and talking to them and feeling how excited they were was really gratifying for me because I am a fan myself.”

Lit Picks for January 30-February 5

Here are my recommendations for literary events in Southern California this week.

Thursday January 30 at 7pm (SD)

New York Times bestselling suspense novelist Lisa Gardner will discuss her new book, When You See Me, with novelist T. Jefferson Parker at Mysterious Galaxy. Although When You See Me is a standalone thriller, it brings together three of Gardner’s most popular characters D. D. Warren, Flora Dane, and Kimberly Quincy. This is a ticketed event.

Friday January 31 at 7pm (SD)

Isabelle Allende will sign and discuss her new novel of historical fiction, A Long Petal of the Sea, at Brown Chapel, Point Loma Nazarene University, 3900 Lomaland Drive in an event sponsored by Warwick’s. This is a ticketed event. Please call 858-454-0347 for more information. Check-in begins at 6:15. Parking at USD can be tricky so plan on arriving early.

Sunday February 2 at 1pm (LA)

Open mic at the Escondido Arts Partnership Escondido Municipal Gallery with featured reader Ruth Bavetta.

Monday February 3 at 7pm (SD)

It’s the first Monday of the month, which means it’s time for Verbatim Poets Society at Verbatim Books!

Tuesday February 4 at 7pm (LA)

Now this looks fun: Jean-Paul Garnier will celebrate the release of his new novel, Garbage In, Gospel Out with Gabriel Hart, Justin Maurer, Anna Seregina, and Andrew Miller at Stories Books & Café.

Plan B at 7pm (LA)

Tembi Locke will discuss her remarkable new book, From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home with Attica Locke at Book Soup.

Plan 9 at 7pm (SD)

Adalyn Grace will discuss her debut YA novel All Stars and Teeth with superstar Tomi Adeyemi, author of the Legacy of Orisha series, at Mysterious Galaxy. Both writers have San Diego connections and promises to be a packed house so get your tickets early if you’re planning on attending.

Wednesday February 5 at 7:30 (SD)

Joe Ide will sign and discuss his new novel Warwick’s. Hi Five, the fourth installation of his IQ series, features South Central detective Isaiah Quintabe. Free and open to the public.

Don’t forget: I’ll be in conversation with J. Malcolm Garcia next week on Thursday, February 6 at The Book Catapult.