Today in our journey into Heaven we meet “The Self-Conscious Ghost”…

S2E11: “The Self-Conscious Ghost” (Download)

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Time Stamps

In case your podcast application has the ability to jump to certain time codes, here are the timestamps for the different parts of the episode.

06:17 – Chapter 150-word Summary

07:14 – Chapter Discussion

36:38 – Haikus

Show Notes

• The quote-of-the-week was from the lips of the Self-Conscious Ghost:

“How can I go out like this among a lot of people with real solid bodies? It’s far worse than going out with nothing on would have been on earth. Have everyone staring through me.” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

• Since it’s Lent, we were both drinking La Croix. I had “Pamplemoose” (Grapefruit) flavour and Matt was drinking the Lemon flavour.

• We read some reviews from listeners:

Time Well Spent “I’ve been listening to the podcast for about half a year and I’m loving it. I just got through the episode on Time (S1E31). I laughed more than usual but also found myself very stimulated from the conversation. Matt and David do an excellent job and you now have one more devoted listener!” iTunes Review of Pints With Jack

In Podbean “This podcast is fantastic! David and Matt do a great job of distilling the wisdom of C.S. Lewis and the tough and misunderstood aspects of the Christian faith in casual and enjoyable way. I always look forward to listening.” Podbean Review of Pints With Jack

• I talked about the Reddit post where I shared a graphic which included an extract from Lewis’ diary the day he met J.R.R. Tolkien.

“No harm in him: only needs a smack or so” C.S. Lewis diary entry after meeting J.R.R. Tolkien for the first time



• I read my 150-word summary of today’s chapter:

Lewis is feeling miserable after meeting The Hard-Bitten Ghost. The environment seems filled with danger so he makes his way towards a thicket of trees for cover. There, he sees the Well-Dressed Ghost trying to hide from one of the Bright Spirits who invites her to go to the mountain. The ghost responds “How can I go out like this among a lot of people with real solid bodies? It’s far worse than going out with nothing on would have been on earth. Have everyone staring through me”. The ghost tries to comfort her and asks “Could you, only for a moment, fix your mind on something not yourself?” but to no avail. The Spirit blows a horn which summons a herd of stampeding unicorns. The Ghost screams and Lewis says he thinks she makes a bolt towards the Spirit, but he himself also flees from the scene. 150-word summary of Chapter 8 of The Great Divorce

• Following his conversation in the previous chapter with the Hard-Bitten Ghost, our narrator is rather shaken. He wonders whether it is, in fact, possible to stay in Heaven. Is it a big joke played by Heaven?

He is reminded of the Book of Revelation (Chapter 14) which talks about the smoke from Hell going up in the sight of those in Heaven. I encouraged listeners who want to understand the Book of Revelation better to read “Coming Soon” by Dr. Michael Barber.

He also thinks of William Cowper, an author and hymn-writer whom I had included in Wise Words On Wednesday:

“Satan trembles when he sees the weakest saint upon their knees” William Cowper

Lewis also thinks of Tantalus, the figure from Greek mythology who is tortured by the gods in Tartarus by standing in a pool which recedes whenever he tries to drink the water and fruit which rises out of reach when ever he tries to eat it. This bears more than a passing resemblance to the Hard-Bitten Ghost’s description of this Heaven in the earlier chapter.

“Of course there never was any question of our staying. You can’t eat the fruit and you can’t drink the water and it takes you all your time to walk on the grass. A human being couldn’t live here. All that idea of staying is only an advertisement stunt” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 7)

I pointed out that the doubt which Lewis describes in this chapter somewhat reflects the line of thinking that led him to atheism in his teenage years.

• As well as wondering whether or not it is possible to stay in Heaven, Lewis is re-awakened to the potential danger in this land:

Bright insects darted to and fro. If one of those were to fly into my face, would it not go right through me? If it settled on my head, would it crush me to earth? Terror whispered, “This is no place for you.” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

However, Jack does want to stay:

If only I could find a trace of evidence that it was really possible for a Ghost to stay – that the choice were not only a cruel comedy – I would not go back. C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

Even while he has his doubts, but he continues searching, an appropriate picture of many a person’s quest for truth and quest for God.

• In the hope of getting some cover, Lewis moves towards where the trees grow close together. In a clearing that he sees the Self-Conscious Ghost:

A Ghost hobbled across the clearing-as quickly as it could on that uneasy soil-looking over its shoulder as if it were pursued. I saw that it had been a woman: a well-dressed woman, I thought, but its shadows of finery looked ghastly in the morning light. C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

As the ghost is trying to hide in the bushes, one of the Bright Spirits also arrives, but the Ghost wants to be left alone:

“Go away!” squealed the Ghost. “Go away! Can’t you see I want to be alone?”



“But you need help,” said the Solid One. “If you have the least trace of decent feeling left,” said the Ghost, “you’ll keep away. I don’t want help. I want to be left alone. Do go away. C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

• The Spirit reassures the Ghost that she will eventually grow solid and the Spirit invites her to lean on him and go to the Mountain:

“That’ll soon come right. But you’re going in the wrong direction. It’s back there – to the mountains- you need to go. You can lean on me all the way. I can’t absolutely carry you, but you need have almost no weight on your own feet: and it will hurt less at every step.” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

Matt and I talked about how God is helping this Ghost through the Spirit, God’s grace, but mediated through a human. This is one of the reasons why the Church is referred to as Christ’s Body.

• The Ghost feels shame about her appearance. We explained that shame is a subset of pride. Pride is dangerous because it puts you into competition with others and even God. I pointed out that, in this case, the competition is all in her head. Because the Bright Spirits are further advanced than she is, they don’t feel that competition – they just want to help – like Adam and Eve they are “Naked and without shame” (Genesis 2:25). Her shame is holding her back – nothing else.

• The Spirit invites her to step out and try. Whenever we start something new, it’s quite likely that we won’t be immediate experts! This reminded Matt of Chesterton’s quotation:

If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton, What’s Wrong with the World,

It put me in mind of Jesus’ invitation to His disciples:

Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, “What do you seek?” And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?” He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where he was staying; and they stayed with him that day, for it was about the tenth hour. One of the two who heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. John 1:38-40

• The Ghost rejects this offer:

“But they’ll see me.” “What does it matter if they do?” “I’d rather die.” “But you’ve died already. There’s no good trying to go back to that.” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

This reminded Matt of a line from Harry Potter:

“Now, if you two don’t mind, I’m going to bed, before either of you come up with another clever idea to get us killed — or worse, expelled.” Hermione Granger

I pointed out the insanity of the Ghost’s refusal to journey to the mountain. It is the very thing she needs! It is like refusing to go to the gym because you’re overweight or refusing to go to Church because you think you’re a sinner!

I compared this Self-Conscious Ghost with the Eve-character in Perelandra who, in humility, doesn’t think of herself at all.

• The Ghost continues to whine:

The Ghost made a sound something between a sob and a snarl. “I wish I’d never been born,” it said. “What are we born for?” “For infinite happiness,” said the Spirit. “You can step out into it at any moment. .. .” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

• I pointed out that shame isn’t always bad. It can help us realize what we lack and thereby drive us to God:

“…unless Christianity is wholly false, the perception of ourselves which we have in moments of shame must be the only true one…A recovery of the old sense of sin is essential to Christianity. Christ takes it for granted that men are bad. Until we really feel this assumption of His to be true, though we are part of the world He came to save, we are not part of the audience to whom His words are addressed. We lack the first condition for understanding what He is talking about” C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

Matt pointed out an important distinction. God doesn’t love us because we’re good. He makes us good because He loves us. I then quoted Romans:

But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

• Matt pointed out that Henry Nouwen argued that self-rejection is the greatest obstacle to the spiritual journey.

• In order to get over her shame, the Ghost is told to lean into it:

Shame… if you will accept it – if you will drink the cup to the bottom – you will find it very nourishing: but try to do anything else with it and it scalds. C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

This kind of logic is ratified by sociological studies.

• The Ghost thinks this is insurmountable, but I pointed out that there are many things in life which we think are impossible at the time (riding a bike, passing your driving test, …) and, although difficult, soon become second nature.

• Towards the end of the chapter, it seems that the Ghost is nearly convinced:

“You really mean? . . .” said the Ghost, and then paused… “Yes,” said the Spirit. “Come and try.” Almost, I thought the Ghost had obeyed. Certainly it had moved: but suddenly it cried out: “No, I can’t. I tell you I can’t… please, please go away!” C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

• Since he has failed to reason her to his position, the Bright Spirit takes another strategy:

…to my great surprise he set a horn to his lips and blew… A herd of unicorns came thundering through the glades: twenty-seven hands high the smallest of them and white as swans but for the red gleam in eyes and nostrils and the flashing indigo of their horns. I can still remember the squelching noise of the soft wet turf under their hoofs, the breaking of the undergrowth, the snorting and the whinneyings; how their hind legs went up and their horned heads down in mimic battle. C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

It appears that this stratagem might have worked, to startle the Ghost so much that she looks away from herself and look to the Spirit:

I heard the Ghost scream, and I think it made a bolt away from the bushes . . . perhaps towards the Spirit, but I don’t know. C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 8

• We ended with haikus…and Matt even wrote some!

The Self-Conscious Ghost

Afraid to be seen

Shame is the tool of Satan / Our shame is the enemy

Stop thinking of self



The Self-Conscious Ghost and Spirit

Unbearable pain

Can I even survive here

Yes! Just lean on me Matt’s Haikus…

The Self-Conscious Ghost

Shame now consumes me

I want to be by myself

Don’t try to help me!



Lewis

Thundering, neighing

Unicorns with gleaming eyes

Seen in mock battle David’s Haikus…

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