traincarswreck



Offline



Activity: 476

Merit: 250







Sr. MemberActivity: 476Merit: 250 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 08:28:40 PM #1101 Quote from: solex on February 10, 2015, 08:16:28 PM To be clear. Bitcoin, being a payments system and inbuilt currency, when used for a scalable amount of transactions, makes it more and more of a "gold standard".

I mean to point out we may lose some of the "Inbuilt currency-ness"



Meaning bitcoins greatest power is its finite-ness..and we may need to give up some its its power as a currency or a money in order to "secure" this. That would make this guy is a fool, for suggesting Smith would hate bitcoin:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/adam-smith-hates-bitcoin/?_r=0

Quote



Quote from: Smith The gold and silver money which circulates in any country, and by means of which, the produce of its land and labour is annually circulated and distributed to the proper consumers, is, in the same manner as the ready money of the dealer, all dead stock. It is a very valuable part of the capital of the country, which produces nothing to the country. The judicious operations of banking, by substituting paper in the room of a great part of this gold and silver, enable the country to convert a great part of this dead stock into active and productive stock; into stock which produces something to the country. The gold and silver money which circulates in any country may very properly be compared to a highway, which, while it circulates and carries to market all the grass and corn of the country, produces itself not a single pile of either. The judicious operations of banking, by providing, if I may be allowed so violent a metaphor, a sort of waggon-way through the air, enable the country to convert, as it were, a great part of its highways into good pastures, and corn fields, and thereby to increase, very considerably, the annual produce of its land and labour. Smith actually wrote eloquently about the fundamental foolishness of relying on gold and silver currency, which  as he pointed out  serve only a symbolic function, yet absorbed real resources in their production, and why it would be smart to replace them with paper currency:

It means make bitcoin the new "gold standard" and create and peg new currencies that are the velocity type of money that take on all the high transaction fields (like the pyramids!!!)



Cliffs: gold doesn't transact as "well" as "money"....should bitcoin?

I mean to point out we may lose some of the "Inbuilt currency-ness"Meaning bitcoins greatest power is its finite-ness..and we may need to give up some its its power as a currency or a money in order to "secure" this. That would make this guy is a fool, for suggesting Smith would hate bitcoin:It means make bitcoin the new "gold standard" and create and peg new currencies that are the velocity type of money that take on all the high transaction fields (like the pyramids!!!)Cliffs: gold doesn't transact as "well" as "money"....should bitcoin?

redsn0w



Offline



Activity: 1778

Merit: 1041





#Free market







LegendaryActivity: 1778Merit: 1041#Free market Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 08:33:04 PM #1102 Bitcoin has a BIG potential but we limit it, a max 20MB block size is not a drama. Come on guys, the actual block size (1 Mb) is not for ever. As "technology" the "changes" are obligated.

traincarswreck



Offline



Activity: 476

Merit: 250







Sr. MemberActivity: 476Merit: 250 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 08:45:49 PM #1103

Quote from: wiki In Ancient Egypt, cubit rods were used for the measurement of length. A number of these have survived: two are known from the tomb of Maya, the treasurer of Tutankhamun, in Saqqara; another was found in the tomb of Kha (TT8) in Thebes. Fourteen such rods, including one double cubit rod, were described and compared by Lepsius in 1865.[6] These cubits range from 523 to 529 mm (20.6 to 20.8 in) in length , and are divided into seven palms; each palm is divided into four fingers and the fingers are further subdivided.[4][6][7]

20.48 mb kids! I am fully under the impression consensus is what is important, not the optimal parameter, and such is why the conversation continues beyond the top elite and intelligent developers. I say we make it exaclty what Gav suggests or some version very close and related to the Royal cubit. Then tell people a a bullshit story about how it relates to the pyrmaids. I'll figure the math justification later:20.48 mb kids! I am fully under the impression consensus is what is important, not the optimal parameter, and such is why the conversation continues beyond the top elite and intelligent developers.

bambou



Offline



Activity: 346

Merit: 250







Sr. MemberActivity: 346Merit: 250 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 08:47:17 PM #1104 Quote from: traincarswreck on February 10, 2015, 08:28:40 PM Quote from: solex on February 10, 2015, 08:16:28 PM To be clear. Bitcoin, being a payments system and inbuilt currency, when used for a scalable amount of transactions, makes it more and more of a "gold standard".

I mean to point out we may lose some of the "Inbuilt currency-ness"



Meaning bitcoins greatest power is its finite-ness..and we may need to give up some its its power as a currency or a money in order to "secure" this. That would make this guy is a fool, for suggesting Smith would hate bitcoin:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/adam-smith-hates-bitcoin/?_r=0

Quote



Quote from: Smith The gold and silver money which circulates in any country, and by means of which, the produce of its land and labour is annually circulated and distributed to the proper consumers, is, in the same manner as the ready money of the dealer, all dead stock. It is a very valuable part of the capital of the country, which produces nothing to the country. The judicious operations of banking, by substituting paper in the room of a great part of this gold and silver, enable the country to convert a great part of this dead stock into active and productive stock; into stock which produces something to the country. The gold and silver money which circulates in any country may very properly be compared to a highway, which, while it circulates and carries to market all the grass and corn of the country, produces itself not a single pile of either. The judicious operations of banking, by providing, if I may be allowed so violent a metaphor, a sort of waggon-way through the air, enable the country to convert, as it were, a great part of its highways into good pastures, and corn fields, and thereby to increase, very considerably, the annual produce of its land and labour. Smith actually wrote eloquently about the fundamental foolishness of relying on gold and silver currency, which  as he pointed out  serve only a symbolic function, yet absorbed real resources in their production, and why it would be smart to replace them with paper currency:

It means make bitcoin the new "gold standard" and create and peg new currencies that are the velocity type of money that take on all the high transaction fields (like the pyramids!!!)



Cliffs: gold doesn't transact as "well" as "money"....should bitcoin? <Beautiful, i'm crying

I mean to point out we may lose some of the "Inbuilt currency-ness"Meaning bitcoins greatest power is its finite-ness..and we may need to give up some its its power as a currency or a money in order to "secure" this. That would make this guy is a fool, for suggesting Smith would hate bitcoin:It means make bitcoin the new "gold standard" and create and peg new currencies that are the velocity type of money that take on all the high transaction fields (like the pyramids!!!)Cliffs: gold doesn't transact as "well" as "money"....should bitcoin?

+1









Quote from: redsn0w on February 10, 2015, 08:33:04 PM Bitcoin has a BIG potential but we limit it, a max 20MB block size is not a drama. Come on guys, the actual block size (1 Mb) is not for ever. As "technology" the "changes" are obligated.



-1



+1-1 Non inultus premor

traincarswreck



Offline



Activity: 476

Merit: 250







Sr. MemberActivity: 476Merit: 250 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 09:29:17 PM #1107 Quote from: redsn0w on February 10, 2015, 08:49:25 PM

thanks for your comment, so is not bitcoin a technology and doesn't it need "changes" ? Ok, it seems something is wrong in internet.

thanks for your comment, so is not bitcoin a technology and doesn't it need "changes" ? Ok, it seems something is wrong in internet.



The block chain is the bedrock and such is what we are trying to "preserve". Not coming to a consensus will rip it apart faster than (for example) too little or too many transactions. A new standard that out grew the pace of pyramid building no doubt ended the "Pyramid" standard. And such was likely gold which is a transportable consensus mechanism (provided things such as finiteness and network-ess). And this is coupled with those that mastered the sea, until the world was fully explored and then that "equilibrium" came about (and so "nations" grew (our present day understanding) more divided and like countries/boundaries).



I think now that the exchanges are in a Nash Equilibrium, all this is showing up in a fading "price". If we don't come to a consensus bitcoin's price will decline to zero!!!



FEARRRR!!! Skipping a ton of myths dispelled, bitcoins power in relation to the individuals role in civilization (we must get along to be "free") is as a consensus mechanism. This inspires cooperation. There are those that want it to be something beyond that, but also those that realize we cannot have cake and eat it (until Bohmian Physics).The block chain is the bedrock and such is what we are trying to "preserve". Not coming to a consensus will rip it apart faster than (for example) too little or too many transactions. A new standard that out grew the pace of pyramid building no doubt ended the "Pyramid" standard. And such was likely gold which is a transportable consensus mechanism (provided things such as finiteness and network-ess). And this is coupled with those that mastered the sea, until the world was fully explored and then that "equilibrium" came about (and so "nations" grew (our present day understanding) more divided and like countries/boundaries).I think now that the exchanges are in a Nash Equilibrium, all this is showing up in a fading "price". If we don't come to a consensus bitcoin's price will decline to zero!!!FEARRRR!!!

tvbcof



Offline



Activity: 3318

Merit: 1140







LegendaryActivity: 3318Merit: 1140 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 10:18:32 PM #1109 Quote from: mayax on February 10, 2015, 10:05:43 PM Quote from: redsn0w on February 10, 2015, 08:33:04 PM Bitcoin has a BIG potential but we limit it, a max 20MB block size is not a drama. Come on guys, the actual block size (1 Mb) is not for ever. As "technology" the "changes" are obligated.



use Altcoins. they are no so limited.

use Altcoins. they are no so limited.

Good point. The onus to do so should be on those who wish to hard-fork and thus obtain a different solution than what we have today. Lots of options out there, and you can create your own which seems to be what Gavin is planning to do. Goodbye and good riddance to all you gavincoiners who don't really have the ability to comprehend the real distributed crypto-currencies.



Have a nice ride:



gavincoin --> govincoin --> govcoin



Good point. The onus to do so should be on those who wish to hard-fork and thus obtain a different solution than what we have today. Lots of options out there, and you can create your own which seems to be what Gavin is planning to do. Goodbye and good riddance to all you gavincoiners who don't really have the ability to comprehend the real distributed crypto-currencies.Have a nice ride:gavincoin --> govincoin --> govcoin sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.

sed



Offline



Activity: 532

Merit: 500







Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 10, 2015, 10:56:09 PM #1111 Hmm, I wish I could distill the drama from this thread in order to get to the meaningful stuff easier.

tvbcof



Offline



Activity: 3318

Merit: 1140







LegendaryActivity: 3318Merit: 1140 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 11, 2015, 12:10:04 AM #1112 Quote from: DooMAD on February 10, 2015, 10:49:48 PM Quote from: tvbcof on February 10, 2015, 10:18:32 PM Goodbye and good riddance to all you gavincoiners who don't really have the ability to comprehend the real distributed crypto-currencies.



"Distributed" would imply that you think anyone's going to stick around to use MPcoin. I'd be genuinely surprised if more than 100 people follow your chain once the fork happens. And after that it will swiftly drop to about 10 deluded MP fanboys when none of the merchants accept it for anything, because everyone else wants a coin the masses can actually use. You're opting for a limited, isolationist, elitist chain, and that's what you're going to get. Everyone else will be long gone. Hell, I bet even Litecoin/Peercoin/Namecoin/Doge will have more node support and be more distributed than MPcoin.

"Distributed" would imply that you think anyone's going to stick around to use MPcoin. I'd be genuinely surprised if more than 100 people follow your chain once the fork happens. And after that it will swiftly drop to about 10 deluded MP fanboys when none of the merchants accept it for anything, because. You're opting for a limited, isolationist, elitist chain, and that's what you're going to get. Everyone else will be long gone. Hell, I bet even Litecoin/Peercoin/Namecoin/Doge will have more node support and be more distributed than MPcoin.

You are not picking it up very fast. We don't WANT you. You are a liability.



You were a regrettable necessity back in the day when some dolt told several other dolts who told several other dolts and so on until you heard about it. The 'network effect' and a bunch of luck got us all the way up to $1000/BTC valuations, congressional hearings, a mountain of VC money, mainstream media coverage, etc. The downside was that you idiots always kept getting ripped off and giving Bitcoin a black-eye, but on balance you did what we needed. Now you are a dull and broken tool that belongs in the scrap bin. You desperately want a giant, indefensible, single-point-of-failure system because that is all you can comprehend. We cannot tolerate that.



Now, from my perspective, I do have some empathy for the commoners in part because I am one myself. The other part is left over from when I was a quasi-socialist not long ago. Also, a properly working (e.g., not subverted by the TPTB) distributed crypto-currency displays and builds it's power by competing successfully with mainstream systems. Since these mainstream systems are fucking you guys raw, the 'value add' would be to simply not do so. That is why I am so excited about sidechains as an infinite supply of tuned exchange currencies deriving their strength from the reserve. A reserve currency is to powerful for most people who cannot even figure out how to keep their passwords safe so again, you are not wanted, but you can get far more from any set of sidechains than you ever would from either raw Bitcoin or mainstream or some combination of the two so you get to win as well. And you could always jump up to the big leagues and be a native Bitcoin user if you get your shit together technically and develop a big enough financial statement to warrant it.



I also very much look forward to using sidechains myself for my daily needs. Bitcoin is a giant hassle to use correctly with the care that it deserves and always will be.



You are not picking it up very fast. We don't WANT you. You are a liability.You were a regrettable necessity back in the day when some dolt told several other dolts who told several other dolts and so on until you heard about it. The 'network effect' and a bunch of luck got us all the way up to $1000/BTC valuations, congressional hearings, a mountain of VC money, mainstream media coverage, etc. The downside was that you idiots always kept getting ripped off and giving Bitcoin a black-eye, but on balance you did what we needed. Now you are a dull and broken tool that belongs in the scrap bin. You desperately want a giant, indefensible, single-point-of-failure system because that is all you can comprehend. We cannot tolerate that.Now, from my perspective, I do have some empathy for the commoners in part because I am one myself. The other part is left over from when I was a quasi-socialist not long ago. Also, a properly working (e.g., not subverted by the TPTB) distributed crypto-currency displays and builds it's power by competing successfully with mainstream systems. Since these mainstream systems are fucking you guys raw, the 'value add' would be to simply not do so. That is why I am so excited about sidechains as an infinite supply of tuned exchange currencies deriving their strength from the reserve. A reserve currency is to powerful for most people who cannot even figure out how to keep their passwords safe so again, you are not wanted, but you can get far more from any set of sidechains than you ever would from either raw Bitcoin or mainstream or some combination of the two so you get to win as well. And you could always jump up to the big leagues and be a native Bitcoin user if you get your shit together technically and develop a big enough financial statement to warrant it.I also very much look forward to using sidechains myself for my daily needs. Bitcoin is a giant hassle to use correctly with the care that it deserves and always will be. sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.

sed



Offline



Activity: 532

Merit: 500







Hero MemberActivity: 532Merit: 500 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 11, 2015, 12:17:34 AM #1113 Again with the drama and "we don't what you and whatnot". Calling one option Gavincoin or MBcoin also doesn't help, imo.



The attack that some people are threatening is very disturbing. Bitcoin community should be looking for consensus here on an important issue, not attacking each other can calling names.

traincarswreck



Offline



Activity: 476

Merit: 250







Sr. MemberActivity: 476Merit: 250 Re: Bitcoin 20MB Fork February 11, 2015, 03:29:47 AM

Last edit: February 11, 2015, 03:54:23 AM by traincarswreck #1118



Then if we follow all this and the relation of block chains and pyramids to the concepts of what is ideal money and how does it arise and especially in relation to the nature and causes of TWON, we should in fact expect pyramids of different stages to have been erected separately across different continents (and possibly and likely taken down to build new bigger pyramids that supported larger civilizations). We have already forgotten our ancient civilizations so much that we don't even realize without the pyramids we would necessarily be in the "stone ages" still or at least some form of "flat planet" beliefs systems (Although it won't immediately seem so relevant). And without fully describing the purpose of the pyramids and their truest nature we should thank them (or the lucky heavens), that they were so aligned with constellations that they might not at all be aligned with any more, that shows us some form of definitive period as well as some from of planetary actions).



Can we deny this?



Further then we must understand the importance of NSzabo's Kula ring conjecture



The significance being completely upside down and difficult to describe (in a form we might immediately identify), but we have created the scenario, the purpose, the only possibility that could arise the great nash equilibrium which necessitates the arising of a more ideal money, where money is the function, form, or symptom of the bedrock mechanism of that society (ie pyramid, gold, block chain). We shouldn't then be fooled by those that have not properly understood that TWON is in fact an "inquiry" and not so much a thesis, and that Adam Smith would not at all hate bitcoin



But rather very likely have understood that one of the necessary pillars of a civilization is a strategic port, which no doubt arises from great water systems built of (and from) naturally great water systems. This allows for the type of foreign commerce and conquest that would eventually topple and wipe from the earth all nations and tribes (histories) up until some key points in history which include some simultaneous form of creating a "record" (blockchain) that stands the entire test of time that is effective up until the point in which we cover the globe and hit a secure equilibrium in relation to surprise conquest through the seas.



ONCE we hit that point of equilibrium, then we can go back and ask ourselves, from where and whence did we come? And now we understand what it means not to know how or why the pyramids were created, and what egypts' relation might be to the sea people (that apparently and allegedly eventually conquered them), and what the Indus valleys relation might have been to its time (and to egypt), and why the "smarter contract" system of the indus is yet to be deciphered. This should begin to spell out a perfect relation of the cubit, to the bit, to the blockchain, and further on to the Q-bit. Why should these things not be related?



And so what is now new then? It is obvious we have conquered the world and achieved a great equilibrium of the 4 colors problem, and this shows up in the most evolved forms of "currencies" (USD CNY Euro etc.) that are trying to represent the four or five "Nations" that created the coincidences that created a higher form of "Money". This money is more ideal but not ideal, as there is another level if there can arise a larger (more universal) consensus mechanism (bitcoin) built on another psychologically finite "building" rate.



And so we are both discussing not only the creation of the specific measurement unit that will ultimately arise from this different dimension and slightly different paradigm of both a new pyramid consensus mechanism that is gold, but also we are now putting on top the very cap of it. Once we have this new standard, we are then able to, for the first time in history (ha) begin to decentralize our society, such as take the burden from the US of guarding both gold and the dollar and for example Arabia and Oil.



It seems then that Gavin humbly presents a very important concept and a significant event, which suggests probably, that he is in fact the architect, which is strange although he is from Princeton uni. It means we should not be fooled that bitcoin should be anything other than a clumsy pyramid, immovable, or not very movable like gold in relation to "money", because bitcoins main purpose and its highest value is to bring stability to the major currencies in this world nearly over night, upon making and accepting this consensus of this condition (which will then birth the new faster fertile moneys Adam smith refers to in the above link).



It will bring the great equilibrium, and likely end war between nations, as we have now clearly shown, that war is the product of centralization (or the transfer of it (power)) and peace comes from a global Nash equilibrium of 4-5 major nations of significant interests and not before it. This is the outline, I have a whole paper to write.



Cliffs: Aliens built pyramids too, and their block sizes matched their cubit in inches and therefore so should ours.





Also bohm: As long as we don't have to explain what comes first the chicken or the egg we can do this (ie we must relevate bohms "implicate" order). The "cubit" was obviously then born both out of the iterations of pyramid building and also the power of it as a consensus-vised/measurement tool, created them. No doubt and not a surprise we find them coveted and preserved, yet the power of their numbers and systems evolved and moved on (if we follow szabo's blog all the way up to the measurement devices that became bitcoin).Then if we follow all this and the relation of block chains and pyramids to the concepts of what is ideal money and how does it arise and especially in relation to the nature and causes of TWON, we should in fact expect pyramids of different stages to have been erected separately across different continents (and possibly and likely taken down to build new bigger pyramids that supported larger civilizations). We have already forgotten our ancient civilizations so much that we don't even realize without the pyramids we would necessarily be in the "stone ages" still or at least some form of "flat planet" beliefs systems (Although it won't immediately seem so relevant). And without fully describing the purpose of the pyramids and their truest nature we should thank them (or the lucky heavens), that they were so aligned with constellations that they might not at all be aligned with any more, that shows us some form of definitive period as well as some from of planetary actions).Can we deny this?Further then we must understand the importance of NSzabo's Kula ring conjecture http://szabo.best.vwh.net/kula.html , because it is but a piece of the picture, since it necessitates another solution in which there is instead a nation in the middle of for example four nations that circle it, BUT this time possibly all on land (or some but possibly one in the middle)! We aren't finished formalizing Adam smith then http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2014/10/transportation-divergence-and.html#links Because now we must understand what it is between "nations" or divisions of LAND among tribes that sometimes arises the greatest wealth in the greatest nations. And on a completely different spectrum it was only computers that arose our ability to solve certain problems such as the byzantine or the 4 colors problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem which we have come to understand especially through games the important of such solutions on our social consciousnesses.The significance being completely upside down and difficult to describe (in a form we might immediately identify), but we have created the scenario, the purpose, the only possibility that could arise the great nash equilibrium which necessitates the arising of a more ideal money, where money is the function, form, or symptom of the bedrock mechanism of that society (ie pyramid, gold, block chain). We shouldn't then be fooled by those that have not properly understood that TWON is in fact an "inquiry" and not so much a thesis, and that Adam Smith would not at all hate bitcoin http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/adam-smith-hates-bitcoin/?_r=0 But rather very likely have understood that one of the necessary pillars of a civilization is a strategic port, which no doubt arises from great water systems built of (and from) naturally great water systems. This allows for the type of foreign commerce and conquest that would eventually topple and wipe from the earth all nations and tribes (histories) up until some key points in history which include some simultaneous form of creating a "record" (blockchain) that stands the entire test of time that is effective up until the point in which we cover the globe and hit a secure equilibrium in relation to surprise conquest through the seas.ONCE we hit that point of equilibrium, then we can go back and ask ourselves, from where and whence did we come? And now we understand what it means not to know how or why the pyramids were created, and what egypts' relation might be to the sea people (that apparently and allegedly eventually conquered them), and what the Indus valleys relation might have been to its time (and to egypt), and why the "smarter contract" system of the indus is yet to be deciphered. This should begin to spell out a perfect relation of the cubit, to the bit, to the blockchain, and further on to the Q-bit. Why should these things not be related?And so what is now new then? It is obvious we have conquered the world and achieved a great equilibrium of the 4 colors problem, and this shows up in the most evolved forms of "currencies" (USD CNY Euro etc.) that are trying to represent the four or five "Nations" that created the coincidences that created a higher form of "Money". This money is more ideal but not ideal, as there is another level if there can arise a larger (more universal) consensus mechanism (bitcoin) built on another psychologically finite "building" rate.And so we are both discussing not only the creation of the specific measurement unit that will ultimately arise from this different dimension and slightly different paradigm of both a new pyramid consensus mechanism that is gold, but also we are now putting on top the very cap of it. Once we have this new standard, we are then able to, for the first time in history (ha) begin to decentralize our society, such as take the burden from the US of guarding both gold and the dollar and for example Arabia and Oil.It seems then that Gavin humbly presents a very important concept and a significant event, which suggests probably, that he is in fact the architect, which is strange although he is from Princeton uni. It means we should not be fooled that bitcoin should be anything other than a clumsy pyramid, immovable, or not very movable like gold in relation to "money", because bitcoins main purpose and its highest value is to bring stability to the major currencies in this world nearly over night, upon making and accepting this consensus of this condition (which will then birth the new faster fertile moneys Adam smith refers to in the above link).It will bring the great equilibrium, and likely end war between nations, as we have now clearly shown, that war is the product of centralization (or the transfer of it (power)) and peace comes from a global Nash equilibrium of 4-5 major nations of significant interests and not before it. This is the outline, I have a whole paper to write.Also bohm: http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html#jCp