david leonhardt

Hello, “Argument” listeners. Michelle, Ross and I have a special episode for you this week. It’s the sold-out live show that we taped last week at TheTimesCenter in New York. We deliberately chose some big topics that would age well. First, the politics of immigration. And second, your voice mail questions about the 2020 Democratic candidates and our responses to your questions. We also had a lot of fun interacting with the audience after we were done taping. So much fun that we have already scheduled our next live show in Boston on May 29. Stay tuned for information on how to buy tickets. And, yes, we are looking at doing future shows in other cities. We are releasing this episode a day earlier than normal. We’ll be back next week to talk about the Mueller report and more. Now, for this week’s show. [APPLAUSE]

michelle goldberg

I’m Michelle Goldberg.

ross douthat

I’m Ross Douthat.

david leonhardt

I’m David Leonhardt. And this is “The Argument,” live. [APPLAUSE] This week, President Trump’s obsession with immigration has reached a new stage. He is threatening to shut down the Mexican border, and his Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen resigned this week. It doesn’t seem to have been totally voluntary. Let’s start with Nielsen and then move to the broader questions about immigration policy. Michelle, you wrote a much-discussed column this week, arguing that she deserves to be ostracized, boycotted by the universities and corporations. [APPLAUSE]

michelle goldberg

Thank you. [LAUGHS]

david leonhardt

Something tells me a live show’s—

ross douthat

That’s all your immediate family, though. [GOLDBERG LAUGHS]

david leonhardt

Something tells me a live show is going to play to Michelle’s advantage here. Boycotted by the universities, corporations, and the other places that typically give cushy jobs to former cabinet officials. Michelle, make the case.

michelle goldberg

I actually don’t even know that you have— to me, the case is so self-evident, right? She oversaw something that was truly evil, and despicable, and unforgivable. And the argument that she and her allies have now been floating out there is that, well, she tried to restrain him. It could have been even worse! And something that some of us have heard before: She was just following orders. And so my case is that first of all, she’s responsible for this policy. She carried it out, whatever personal qualms she might have had. She then lied about it before Congress. Or if I was writing this in my column, I would say she seems to have lied about it before Congress. And I think it’s important that there be repercussions for a couple of different reasons. I mean, one, just because our government has been so hijacked. And it’s getting worse, and worse, and worse. We just had a purge in D.H.S. We have this new attorney general who is completely enthralled to Trump and in no way even pretends to represent the best interests of the country as a whole. So any sort of accountability in the government has been really circumscribed, although you still have attempts at congressional hearings. But we have this asymmetry in American life where the small states that tend to be more rural have disproportionate political power. It’s why you have a minority president like Donald Trump in the first place. It’s why you can get someone like Brett Kavanaugh confirmed with 50 or 60 senators that are elected by 20 or 30 percent of the electorate, right?

ross douthat

That might be a slight exaggeration.

michelle goldberg

We’ll get the math later. [LAUGHTER] But the flip side of that is you people and people on the coasts have disproportionate economic and cultural power, right? That politicians want to appeal to swing voters in Wisconsin. Big businesses want to appeal to affluent liberals in New York, and California, and major cities. And so one very imperfect mechanism of accountability in a sort of frayed and fracturing society is through this kind of ridiculous phenomenon of woke capitalism. And so people have the power. They don’t have the power to vote out this ghastly government, but they do have the power to boycott companies that do business with its most egregious and lawless members. And I think that it’s important that she be made an example of in particular. I mean, again, both because of just the utter cruelty of what they’ve done and the kind of lives they’ve blighted in ways that are never going to be repaired, but also, because they’re gearing up to do it again.

david leonhardt

So let’s come up with a little hypothetical here. A school— we’ll call it the Kennedy School at Harvard University, [LAUGHTER] signs up Kirstjen Nielsen as a future fellow. Ross, are you signing up for Michelle’s boycott? And are you refusing ever to set foot —

ross douthat

No, no. I’ll speak anywhere. [LAUGHTER] If they invite me, it doesn’t matter. Yeah, I’ll go anywhere. So in that sense, I’m not signing up. But I don’t think— I don’t have a really intense— I have some intense feelings about “woke capital” and the idea that it would be really good for liberalism to just lean into its cultural control of institutions.

michelle goldberg

I don’t necessarily think it’s really good. I think it’s just—

ross douthat

It’s just what—

michelle goldberg

—kind of—

ross douthat

—we have.

michelle goldberg

—an emergency measure.

ross douthat

Yeah. On this, we basically agree. I think the job separation policy was the worst thing that the Trump administration has done. I think Nielsen should have resigned rather than carry it out. And so I don’t have a problem with her bearing some sort of stigma going forward. But there is a larger issue here, which is what we’re dealing with generally at the border right now, which is that Trump is flailing around trying to find a policy to deal with the crisis, failing to find a policy, sort of falling back on these ideas of toughness that don’t really work. But at the same time, it’s a genuinely hard problem that governments both— not only the Obama White House, but governments in Europe, including liberal-run governments have struggled with consistently over the last five or 10 years. What do you do when you get this kind of migration cascade? And there are things that a liberal government could do that I think a lot of people on the left would consider beyond the pale. And I mean, is there a stigma that you would attach to anyone who worked for the Obama D.H.S., I guess?

michelle goldberg

Well, part of it is that the Obama D.H.S., even when there were some egregious cases, there wasn’t a carefully wrought policy of inflicting cruelty as a means of deterrence, right? So the Obama D.H.S.— and I would say deserves condemnation for trying to— there’s something called the Flores Settlement, which basically says that you can’t hold children. You can’t hold families in prison for more than— or families—

ross douthat

You can’t hold their kids.

michelle goldberg

—in detention. Right. You can’t hold kids in detention for more than 20 days. And so the Obama administration had tried to challenge that or renegotiate it, so that they could hold these families longer, rather than sort of releasing them pending their asylum hearings. And that was really bad. It was not comparable to what Trump did. So there’s a lot to condemn about the Obama policy, which partly was about— as a lot of the biggest mistakes that Obama made, was based on a false understanding of Republicans, right? That if we showed that we can get really tough on undocumented immigrants, then we might get the Republicans to come around to some kind of compromise on the issues that we care about. The Dreamers and other sorts of things. And that obviously was not the case. And hopefully, no Democrat should make that mistake again. But there is just such a profound qualitative difference between things that the Obama administration did that should be condemned and this truly evil policy.

david leonhardt

I agree there was a qualitative difference. I mean, to me there’s— what the Trump administration is doing on immigration is evil. What the Obama administration did was imperfect. And I’m very comfortable drawing the line between evil and imperfect. I don’t see that as a quandary. You seem to think, Ross, that there is some quandary there.

ross douthat

I mean, I just— I see a certain amount of rhetoric and again, not particularly from you guys, but from people left of center about— for instance, that if you suspended this decree that says you have to release children and you then— when families apply for asylum, you keep them in detention until the asylum application is processed, which under current circumstances takes a very long time. That’s getting described as building concentration camps along the U.S.-Mexico border, right?

michelle goldberg

Well, part—

ross douthat

The rhetoric doesn’t just attach to— I mean, basically, Trump has done some particularly awful and some particularly stupid things. He’s also tried to do basically a lot of the same stuff that Obama tried to do. And some of that gets described in apocalyptic Hitlerian rhetoric right now.

michelle goldberg

Well, the reason it gets described that way is because Trump uses apocalyptic Hitlerian rhetoric, right? So you obviously should have a greater degree of scrutiny to a sort of— when a racist madman uses genocidal language about migrants, you should kind of pay more attention than like— [APPLAUSE]

ross douthat

Well, but I mean, isn’t the flip side of that the implication that because Obama was smooth and seemed to sympathize with migrants that he got less scrutiny?

michelle goldberg

Come on. It was liberals who also sued him, right? It was the A.C.L.U. that— so it wasn’t that kind of liberals said like—

ross douthat

There’s a segment of the left that’s been completely consistent on this. But there’s a larger group that— I mean, I guess I’d put it different. And maybe this is for David to weigh in. I think what Obama did— the stuff that’s getting described as concentration camps, I think, was totally understandable and a sort of hard but necessary response to this kind of cascade. And I think, Michelle, you seem to disagree, right?

michelle goldberg

Well, I don’t believe it was necessary. I mean, partly because— well, for two different reasons. First of all, there are programs. And there was pilot programs during the end of the Obama administration that actually worked quite well that said either if you give people ankle bracelets or if you put them into various programs where they’re sort of in close touch with lawyers and social workers, then they will go to their hearings. They will— we’re having a big discussion in this country right now about mass incarceration. And there’s a sort of generalized agreement on right and left, that locking people up should be a last resort. And so it seems to me obvious a corollary area of that, that locking families who haven’t committed a crime should also be a last resort. And there are other ways to do it. And then the other piece of this is that the whole reason that this process takes so long, right? So part of the reason for this migrant surge and the reason that these kind of asylum claims overwhelm the system is because they take years. And so even though I think— most of these asylum claims are adjudicated at least initially, that most people pass their credible fear of screening. So there is— most of them, I think, have some legitimacy. And I think about 20 percent of them are ruled to be genuine asylum cases. But let’s say there are people who are sort of gaming the system and saying, well, if you claim asylum, they’re going to let you go. And you’re going to have years in the country while you go through that process. Well, that process doesn’t have to take years, right? If you took some of that money that was spent on the wall, or the prisons, or on all these other things and just hired and trained a ton more immigration judges, you could make this process go much more quickly and both remove the incentive to make false asylum claims and remove the necessity of incarcerating people.

david leonhardt

So before we leave this, let’s just spend a couple minutes on what a better immigration policy would look like. So I’ve stipulated that I think Trump’s is cruel, and racist and odious. This is— in no way do I mean this is a defense of anything he’s doing. I do worry that the Democratic Party no longer has a coherent policy on immigration. that Obama’s — and it wasn’t just Obama’s, it was many Democrats —was coherent. It was: path to citizenship, tight border security. I agree with you, Michelle. Some of that was trying to win over Republicans, which totally failed, right? Every time Obama tried to do something to win over Republicans in Congress, it failed. But it also kept him popular and helped him win re-election. And so there were other benefits. And I think we now see the party moving to a place where they are essentially unwilling to talk about deporting anyone, which if you extend it means, hey, if you get here somehow into the country and you don’t commit a violent crime, you get to stay. And you saw this in the debate with Hillary and Bernie. They were sort of unable to talk about this. And I actually worry that the Democratic Party is not really for open borders. But they’re getting themselves into this place where they are not willing to talk about the fact that immigration restrictions help huge numbers of people in this country already, including a lot of people who are members of the Democratic constituency. That if we were to have less legal and illegal immigration in this country, it would help immigrants who have come in the last 20 and 30 years. And one of the reasons why immigration of the early 20th century was so successful was we then had a period with much less immigration. And I can already tell from your expression that I have not persuaded you.

michelle goldberg

I don’t think Democrats should stipulate that the country would benefit from much lower immigration flows. I mean, in part because the country is shrinking— or the country is not shrinking, but birthrates are declining. There are cities all over America that are emptying out. There are several states that have negative population growth. And if you sort of want a young, vibrant country, you’re going to get it through immigrants. I also just feel like immigrants are what this country is for. To me, it’s like what is— [APPLAUSE] —right? If you love this country, you don’t love it because we have a lot of violence. We have a lot of inequality. There are so many things that this country does worse than basically every other Western developed country. But the thing that it does better, the thing that makes it great is that we have been better at welcoming and absorbing immigrants. We’re better at it than — have historically been better at it than Europe. Everything good about America flows from that, right? Innovation flows from that. If you look. at the number of immigrant Nobel Prize winners, immigrant founders of Fortune 500 companies, right? Everything good about this country flows from immigration policy or flows from kind of being welcoming to immigrants. [APPLAUSE] And so I don’t— I think that doesn’t mean that you can have open borders. But it does mean—

ross douthat

Why not?

michelle goldberg

What?

ross douthat

Why not?

michelle goldberg

I don’t know. For the same reason, Ross, you think that more Christianity in public life is good, right? But presumably, you think that there are limits to that. You maybe think that—

ross douthat

We’re actually taping this, right? [LAUGHTER]

michelle goldberg

Right. So to me, that if you say, how many immigrants should we absorb? I would say—

ross douthat

Never be too much Christianity, Michelle.

michelle goldberg

—as many as possible, but there are—

ross douthat

Well, so here’s a different question.

michelle goldberg

Let me— O.K.

ross douthat

But so the possible, right?

michelle goldberg

Mm-hmm.

ross douthat

So maybe you would agree that we should admit immigrants to the point at which immigration levels start to create major political destabilization, for instance. Would you agree with that?

michelle goldberg

Well, yeah. So to me, this is sort of the limit on immigration is that there is this correlation. It’s not exact, but there is this correlation between demographic change and the rise of political reaction. And David Frum had this piece in The Atlantic, right?

ross douthat

Right.

michelle goldberg

Where he was basically saying, if liberals won’t control the borders, fascist will.

david leonhardt

I think that was actually the internet headline on that piece.

michelle goldberg

Right. And I don’t totally buy that argument. Because you also see a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment like Hungary where they don’t have a lot of immigrants. You see it in parts of this country where they don’t have a lot of immigrants. So I don’t think that there’s a one-to-one correlation between increased immigration and increased kind of nativism and nationalism. But in as much as the two are interrelated, it’s something that you have to think about. But just like the percentage of foreign-born population in the country right now, it’s higher than it was in 1950. But it’s not higher than it was in 1890 when my shtetl grandparents came here.

ross douthat

But it will be. And I mean, we’re—

michelle goldberg

No—

ross douthat

—about to.

michelle goldberg

—it won’t be. I think at current rates, it’ll take another decade before it reaches the highs of—

ross douthat

Right— of the turn of the last— yeah.

michelle goldberg

—previous highs, right? And so the idea that it’s some sort of unprecedented crisis— to me, it doesn’t seem that much different than previous freak-outs over the dirty Irish.

ross douthat

But isn’t that your thesis on most of our podcasts that the political situation in the U.S. right now is an unprecedented crisis, the likes of which we’ve never seen before? So the fact that this crisis has been obviously abetted by the man you think who is a fascist president’s stance on immigration, doesn’t that make you think that maybe this is that kind of moment where you want to say, O.K., we’ve reached a point where we’re empowering demagogues too much and we want to take— I mean, I actually think David has now moved to my right on this. I mean, my view right now is that current immigration rates— the current level is probably O.K. And we should change the skills mix a little to get more of Michelle’s entrepreneurs and fewer low-wage workers. But that at the same time, you want to totally avoid the kind of situation — it’s really hard to avoid — that you had in Europe that did contribute, I think, to Hungarian nationalism, where this sense of sort of basically an uncontrolled cascade.

michelle goldberg

Right. The Hungary kept the immigrants out and still got the fascism.

ross douthat

No, but it got the fascism because the fascists built were like, we’re the ones building the wall. And the Germans are telling us if we don’t build the wall, we’re going to be like Angela Merkel.

michelle goldberg

Right. And my point is that I feel like Trump and a lot of Trumpism is a reaction to the inevitable demographic change of the country and the sort of fact that we have this youngest majority-minority generation. And that’s happening immigrants or no. And that in the same way that I don’t think less Jews would have been the solution to Nazism, I just— I don’t think — I feel like immigrants are a scapegoat more than they’re a cause. [APPLAUSE]

ross douthat

O.K., but then I feel like you’ve talked— but you’ve sort of talked yourself back out of your limiting principle, right? Because then it’s like, well, we can’t limit immigration, because then the Nazis win, right?

michelle goldberg

No, I don’t think that that’s right. I mean, I feel like there’s two different pieces here. Because there’s the migrant piece, like the piece of migrants from Central America and the piece of immigrants from various system—

ross douthat

General levels in policy.

michelle goldberg

Right. And so to me, the first piece, the migrant piece, is the more complicated one. The other one — we just need — I just feel like more. We need more students, more highly skilled doctors, more in general. The migrant piece is hard because to me, the greatest tension is between the welfare state and the claims of foreign-born people who need social services, right? If you look at Europe, the countries that have traditionally the most robust welfare states also have pretty homogeneous populations. And there’s this real struggle to create a multi-ethnic social democracy. But that becomes, I think, more difficult the larger that influx is. And the more it strains the safety net, the more difficulty you’re going to have kind of getting people to buy into a more robust social democracy. But you can solve that or at least begin to solve it without resorting to really sadistic cruelty, in part just by having a huge scaling up of judges and people to adjudicate these asylum claims.

david leonhardt

For the record, I’m not to your right on this issue, Ross. [LAUGHTER] O.K., we are going to have to leave it there. Now, we’re going to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. Over the past few months, we’ve devoted episodes to a few of the top tier Democratic presidential candidates: Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren who came on the show. We’ve also asked you, the larger you, our audience to call us and leave us voice mails telling us which other candidates you have wanted us to talk about. So let’s listen to some of your voice mails now.

voice mails Hi, my name is Owen Trousseau. Good morning, this is John. This is Kathy Martin. Hello, this is Jennifer Hanes. I’d like Amy Klobuchar to get a shot. I’d love to hear more about Amy Klobuchar. Why do you think she’s not doing better? I want to request that Andrew Yang is on the show. Andrew Yang. Jay Inslee. I would love for you to talk about Mayor Pete. About Mayor Pete. Beto O’Rourke. Cory Booker. Tulsi Gabbard, please. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you. Have a good one. Thanks. Love the show. Bye.

david leonhardt

Thank you.

ross douthat

We were careful to include that “love the show.” [LAUGHTER] That’s for ego gilding.

david leonhardt

Ross, Michelle got the first word last time. You get the first word this time.

ross douthat

I mean, this field— it’s actually a problem for podcasting, right? That there are like 37 Democratic candidates. And people are like, why haven’t you done the special Tim Ryan episode? So I’ll say something about— it’s Andrew Yang, right? That’s how you pronounce— “yong,” not Yang?

david leonhardt

That sounds right.

ross douthat

It sounds right? O.K. Yeah. That’s the other thing. Gabbard, Buttigieg. You’re like these are some— it’s almost like Douthat. These are some problematic last names.

david leonhardt

The weirdest thing about Buttigieg— just to interrupt for a minute, which is he has the worst description of how to pronounce his own name. Has anyone else noticed this?

ross douthat

“Boot, edge, edge.”

david leonhardt

He has this “boot, edge, edge,” which trips everyone else up, whereas there’s an easy way to do this. It’s Buttigieg.

ross douthat

Well— and what’s even— so one of my wife’s best friends very strangely is the daughter of Maltese immigrants. And her last name is Buttigieg. But my wife and their other best friend had always pronounced it “bewta gig,” even though that is apparently not how it’s actually—

david leonhardt

Mispronounced it.

ross douthat

—pronounced. Mispronounced it. Right. So I thought I was ahead of the Mayor Pete curve. And then I had to be corrected about proper Maltese pronunciation.

david leonhardt

Andrew Yang.

ross douthat

Andrew Yang. So the great Andrew Yang is basically— maybe we can have him on the show at some point. If he’s listening, I would love to interview him and maybe argue with him about the universal basic income, which is one of his signature plans. And I don’t think he’s going to be the Democratic nominee, but he basically has a 137-point platform that —

michelle goldberg

He recently said the only thing standing between me and the presidency is popularity. [LAUGHTER]

ross douthat

Right. No. I mean, he’s like— if one of us ran for president, I would hope we would be like— it’s sort of the pundit runs for president. Or it’s in this decadent republic of ours. He’s figured out that eventually we’re going to get a Caesar Augustus, right? The guy who just rewrites everything, who’s like, you’re marrying him, and you’re marrying her. And he’s got the list. And he’s endorsed a lot of ideas I disagree with. He’s had harsh words that he sort of had to walk back about circumcision, I think. We’ll devote a segment to that later. Don’t worry. Maybe segment is the wrong word to use. [LAUGHTER] But he’s also— I think he’s endorsed one of my favorite populist ideas of moving many cabinet agencies out of Washington, DC and scattering them around the heartland. Instead of bringing in more immigrants to save the heartland, we need to bring in more H.H.S.—

michelle goldberg

Bureaucrats.

ross douthat

—bureaucrats. [LAUGHTER] It’s awesome. So I’m pro-Yang.

david leonhardt

Even though you’re anti-universal basic income?

ross douthat

I am anti-universal basic income. But I’m pro the spirit of the Yang movement.

david leonhardt

Which of these candidates most interest you?

michelle goldberg

Well, Mayor Pete definitely interests me. Because I mean, first of all, just because he seems to have some of that sort of Obama energy around him, which I mean, because conservatives— at least a fair number of conservatives seem to really like him without kind of liking anything that he’s proposing. There’s something about him, that there’s always the sort of one, like fresh-faced faced young man that people get really excited about. And since I think a lot of Democrats just kind of want to see who takes off, he seems like there’s something there. And then I also think that when you really listen to him, he does have a real diagnosis of the kind of fundamental, structural problems that have led America to a crisis point, right? So he talks a lot about the fundamental flaws in our kind of constitutional system that have kind of led us to this point of minority rule, which is a big issue of mine. And so one of the things that he says sometimes is that we need to think about how we can change the system, not for the next four years, but by the time I am Donald Trump’s age, which is in like 40 years or something. [LAUGHTER] I also really— it kind of makes me sad that she’s one of the minor candidates, but I really like Kirsten Gillibrand.

david leonhardt

Our senator here in New York.

michelle goldberg

Our senator who— it’s interesting. I mean, it’s kind of— it’s interesting that I think her campaign isn’t taking off. Because the bet she has sort of made is that she can run as like the resistance candidate, right? I mean, her claim to fame is that she has voted against Trump more than any other senator. She is sort of trying to harness this women’s outrage about both policies and just the fundamental deep insult of having this man in the White House. And so I don’t know that her campaign is going anywhere, but she’s definitely — she speaks to me, at least.

david leonhardt

I realize this sort of performative aspect of politics shouldn’t matter or at least people like us think it shouldn’t. But I’ve been really struck, listening to some of the extended interviews with Gillibrand, Booker, and Buttigieg and how different I found them. They, to me, were giving speeches when they were being interviewed and some of the more personal aspects of politics. And I think Gillibrand and Booker are both extremely impressive. But when they do these sort of more intimate conversations, they often, to me, lapse a little bit into speeches. And one of the things that I found impressive with Buttigieg, which is he seems extremely smart. And as you said, he has a good diagnosis. But he also seems human and you can imagine him sitting next to you, rather than just speaking from behind a podium. Some of that may be expectations, right? I have higher expectations for Booker and Gillibrand. But he’s the first candidate who, after listening to him for a long time, I thought, wow, he exceeded my expectations.

ross douthat

I mean, I think I’m one of the conservatives who has enjoyed some of his schtick. [LAUGHTER] I think he’s sort of, I’m here to respect the heartland and talk about a culture war truce and all that kind of stuff. That is probably part of what I am hypothetically looking for in a Democratic nominee. And he is very personable. And I think he’s sort of kicking Beto O’Rourke’s ass right now in certain ways, in terms of being the white, male, middle-of-the-country outsider who’s burning up social media, which I’m very much a “sell” on Beto right now. But I mean, that could be wrong. I would just say, though, it’s a little absurd, right? I mean, I know we elected Donald Trump, so we can do anything. [LAUGHTER] But Mayor Pete, he has this sort of — I mean, he’s been mayor of a small —

david leonhardt

Medium sized.

ross douthat

— medium size city. Not a failed mayor, not a wildly successful mayor either. Other than that, he’s had a very nice meritocratic career. I’m probably jealous, because he went to Harvard and was my concentration. That’s what we call majors at Harvard, by the way. In case you’re ever talking to a Harvard man and you want to sound with it — concentration. So I’m just jealous. But it’s a little — it’s just a little — it’s a little much.

michelle goldberg

The thing that drives me crazy — I mean— and this isn’t just about him. It’s about Beto and sort of all these young men is just — I mean, you cannot imagine a woman — not even a mayor — you can’t imagine the mayor of Chicago running for president and being taken as seriously as—

ross douthat

I think if A.O.C. was a little older, she might be getting some attention—

michelle goldberg

We’ll see.

ross douthat

—if she was running for president.

michelle goldberg

I mean, I kind of feel like it’s always “if she was running.” I remember when people said that about Elizabeth Warren. And look where we are. And so there is something maddening about having this group of extremely accomplished female senators and then all of these — Buttigieg and then a bunch of congressmen being like, no, what you really need is me.

david leonhardt

So that’s a good— actually, point to talk about Klobuchar for a minute. So I mean, I’m saddened by the whole Klobuchar situation, because — I’ve written this — I think in many ways on paper, she is the single best candidate, right? She doesn’t fight the culture war stuff that I do think turns off a substantial number of swing voters. But she doesn’t have this sort of silly centrism on economics that affluent people think is where the country is, even though it’s not. She talks about monopoly power. She strikes me as a really strong candidate. If you look at her results in Minnesota, they’re really impressive. And even more, I do think the attention to the way she treats her staff is in part sexist, right?

michelle goldberg

No. So the reason I don’t think that is just because I feel like I’ve been hearing those stories. And I feel like how you react to them kind of depends on the stories that you’ve heard and the rumors that you’ve heard if you’ve sort of been hearing those rumors and hearing things that are worse. And then it was kind of like, oh, inevitably this was going to come out. And why did you think this wasn’t going to come out? And so people either react to them like, oh, is this all? Or, oh, there’s a lot here. I also — I just — I think that you need somebody who excites not just — I don’t just mean kind of hipsters in Brooklyn, but I just — I don’t know anyone who’s excited about Amy Klobuchar. I mean, I feel like there’s people who are like, O.K., fine. She would be fine. [LAUGHTER]

ross douthat

I have a friend who I think of as like my Midwestern, female, Democratic swing voter who lives in Minnesota and loves her—

michelle goldberg

But I guess— I just think—

ross douthat

—and loves her more because of the stories. [LAUGHTER]

michelle goldberg

I feel like whenever Democrats try to—

ross douthat

I’m just saying.

michelle goldberg

It’s like, God, those Minnesotans are vicious.

ross douthat

Oh, yeah. Well, “Minnesota nice” is all a facade.

michelle goldberg

Right. It’s all like with seething rage underneath “Minnesota nice.”

ross douthat

They’ll kill you. But I think that whenever Democrats try to sort of overthink this stuff and think like, who is the person who is going to appeal to this mythical swing voter? Oh, I know. We need a war hero like John Kerry. I like John Kerry, but as opposed to Obama who spoke to our hearts, right? And I just feel like the lesson has been that you need to kind of start with your own enthusiasm and work out.

david leonhardt

I mean, you could argue it’s not just Democrats, right? The last three presidents are an orange-skinned, yellow-haired reality TV star, a first-term senator named Barack Hussein Obama and a guy who has the same exact name as the most recent failed one-term president before him.

michelle goldberg

Right, and Republicans haven’t had good luck with this approach either, right? Republicans like McCain appeals to all sorts of people, or Mitt Romney isn’t going to freak out swing voters. But you just — I just feel like the lesson of recent American politics is that you need to excite your own people first.

ross douthat

But also, I mean for Klobuchar’s strategy, it’s a little different from the senator from New York, right? She just needs Biden to collapse, right? Her lane is, I’m getting moderate to centrist Democrats. And I think if Biden collapses, she could totally have a moment. She just can’t have it as long as he’s sitting at 30 percent in the polls, because those are her voters.

david leonhardt

I’m not sure she can have a moment, even if that happens. Because I do feel like — as Michelle is saying, I think, in part, presidential campaigns are about falling in love to some degree. And I think these stories—

ross douthat

If you don’t fall in love with her, she’ll throw binders at your head, man. [LAUGHTER]

david leonhardt

I think it makes it harder for voters to do.

ross douthat

I will say, one, from everything I’ve heard, Michelle is right. And she is— it’s not sexism. She may be a uniquely terrible “Veep”-level boss. Two, I don’t think that’s hurt her generally. I think if anything, that has been a thing that has maybe boosted her a little bit, because people don’t think of it that way. They’re just like, oh, she’s tough on her staff. That’s not so bad.

david leonhardt

So let’s end here. I want to argue that Cory Booker is the most underrated candidate right now, because — and it goes— here’s how it works.

ross douthat

Bold. Very bold.

david leonhardt