Foxy Shazam caught fans off-guard last month with the out-of-nowhere release of their fourth full-length, Gonzo. In a deeply revealing and surprise-filled interview, PropertyOfZack Senior Writer Jesse Richman spoke with vocalist Eric Nally about the band’s newfound freedom, the process of making Gonzo, and the painful family secret behind the band’s most personal album to date.

POZ: So first of all, congrats on the release of the new album!

EN: Thank you, thank you very much.

POZ: It seemed to drop from the sky out of nowhere and into our laps.

EN: Yeah, it’s been really awesome. We were a little nervous about how it would all go down because it was the first time we’d ever done anything like that. But it’s gone over very well, and I’m very, very happy.

POZ: Sure, I imagine this past week’s been pretty crazy for you guys.

EN: Yeah, definitely. As you know, we released the record for free. It was definitely a huge step forward for us, in every way. We’re very excited.



POZ: I want to get into the new record, but before I do, I want to take a step backwards first, and talk a little bit about Church Of Rock And Roll. Is that cool?

EN: Yes, absolutely!

POZ: Personally, I loved the [2010] self-titled album you did. It’s one of my all time favorite albums, I’m a huge fan of it. And I know it was one that really grew your fanbase, it was when a lot of people took notice of you guys. And so when you followed it up [in 2012] with Church, which kind of pushed that bombastic, operatic sound to the next level… I guess I’m wondering a) how you felt about the reception to that album, and b) looking back now, if you’re happy with how it came out.

EN: The way I’ve always thought of Foxy – and this kind of pertains to the way we sound from album to album – is we’re just kind of this creative entity that floats along, and we make records with certain producers, and those producers contribute to the records. So I feel very, very, very, very proud of every record we’ve made so far in our career. I feel like every record we make defines the records before it. As opposed to the records we made before defining the records we make next, it’s more like the ones we make kind of explain the previous ones better. You know what I mean? I feel like the self-titled record was… It was the first time we worked with the big producer, big label, all of that, and it’s one of my favorite records that we’ve done. I remember a lot about that record being… I really do like that record, and I’m very proud of it. All of our records, I am. I definitely feel like all of them are a major piece of the puzzle leading up to whatever we do next.

POZ: With Church, did you set out trying to see just how far you could take that sound?

EN: Church was interesting because it was me, Alex [Nauth, horns] and Sky [White, keyboards]. We went to England, we were working on the record in England, and then Loren [Turner, guitar], Daisy [Caplan, bass] and Aaron [McVeigh, drums] were in New York, so we did the record kind of separated from each other. It was something that made for a unique sound. Obviously, Justin [Hawkins, vocalist for The Darkness and producer of Church] was contributing too. I felt like it was natural. We didn’t really think about it, we just kind of went for it, and that was the natural progression out of the self-titled.

POZ: That album came out on IRS Records, which was a legendary label that had gone away for a while. This was supposed to be their big relaunch. And to be honest, I haven’t heard much from IRS since your album came out with them.

EN: Yeah, we shut ‘em down man! [Laughs] We really did. We put out that record, and it went awesome, everything went great, but we worked ourselves to the bone, and I think by the time… The whole record industry is all just thin ice, and you never know where to step. With the self-titled we were on Warner, and then they fell apart, and we just kind of jumped over to EMI, which IRS was a subsidiary of, and then EMI kind of fell apart. We were able to make these records and escape just before the whole ship sank, and now, this one, we just did it ourselves.



POZ: The other thing I wanted to talk a little about with Church was some of the tours you ended up on. The Darkness, I guess, was an obvious pairing after having Justin produce the album, but then you actually opened for Slash [of Guns ‘n Roses and Velvet Revolver fame] for a while. I caught your show in New York when you were opening for him and that was definitely one of the weirder audiences I’ve been in when seeing one of your shows. How did you feel about those tours you ended up on? Do you feel like it worked? Was it a fun challenge to be out of your element?

EN: I’ve always felt like, no matter who you put us in front of, it just doesn’t matter. We will do our thing no matter what, no matter who’s out there in the crowd. It just doesn’t matter. I’ve always taken pride in the fact that we can do what we do, that’s it, we do what we do, and whoever you want to put us in front of, it will work, because we just do that. It was definitely a group of people we had never been in front of before, but at the same time I love challenging the band. I felt like it was a great thing for the band, and I feel like being in the presence of the guys who have been in the game a lot longer, like Slash, it’s fun to be around them, you know? Just be in the same room and see someone who’s been through it all before.

POZ: It was definitely a weird crowd for a Foxy show, but one of the coolest things about it was seeing people slowly get won over as your set went on. A lot of old metalheads started kind of getting into it – you could tell, the headbanging started a little bit, the devil horns went up.

EN: It’s kind of the story of my life, winning people over. They’re not really sure at first with us.

POZ: Did you get to hang out with Slash at all backstage, or does he keep to himself?

EN: We definitely interacted a little bit, you know, we appreciated each other. He chose us to come out on tour, so we were very honored to have him do that. We would exchange a little bit, but, you know, only on a quick, passing-by type thing. But he had lost his voice on some of the tour, so it was kind of hard to communicate.

POZ: He was on vocal rest backstage?

EN: [Laughs] Yeah.



POZ: Aside from the Slash question, I guess what my other questions were leading up to is that, with Gonzo, everything about it feels like a total 180 from where Church Of Rock And Roll was. Is Gonzo a reaction to that album? Is it about saying, “OK, we’ve gone as far as we can go with this, let’s do something else”? Is it just that you were inspired to move in a different direction? Where did the impetus come from?

EN: I think what it was is, every record that we had done up until this point was the reason [Gonzo] turned out the way it did. I think a lot of what I’m writing about with Gonzo has to do with the toll that my career has taken on me, spiritually and personally and emotionally. I think it definitely made me realize, with Church Of Rock And Roll and the self-titled record, these labels, they’re the middle man. I wouldn’t change any way we did anything, I’m thankful for everything, but in the end, coming through all that, I realized that we don’t need them in order to be what we want to be. And I think, especially nowadays, that goes for a lot of artists.

POZ: Sure, I think a lot of other people are coming to that same conclusion.

EN: Yeah, exactly. It’s just so ridiculous to even think of a middle man now, with the internet. And the thing is too: money Hence, the reason we gave this record away for free. We wanted to make sure with this record that money wasn’t in the equation. Money doesn’t have any stake in any of this. It’s just for what I know I was put on this earth to do, and to deliver that to our fans and to whoever else would be interested in hearing it, and making our mark on the world.



POZ: So why the decision to just drop it all of the sudden, without an advance publicity build-up or any of the usual goings-on?

EN: This record in particular, Gonzo, is the record that… We haven’t worked harder on a record before. Gonzo is the record that we’ve put the most into, out of all of them we’ve done so far. And that’s how it goes for every record we do, the newest one has always got to be better than the last. But for Gonzo, I couldn’t imagine putting any more energy into something than I did with that, and that goes for all of us in the band. To give it away for free, and out of nowhere, to not make it all snazzy… And to be honest, that went further. Just dropping it out of nowhere did more than hyping it up for a whole month or two before, you know? Just dropping it made it spread faster. And I think that’s just a matter of recognizing how people hear music nowadays, and going with the flow with that.

POZ: Sure. It felt like the release was very visceral, and no-frills, and right in your face, which I think mirrors the album in a lot of ways. It’s almost like the release plan matched sonically and thematically with the album.

EN: Yeah, exactly.



POZ: So I’ve read a number of statements on the Internet, but I haven’t seen any actual attribution to them, that say that Gonzo is a concept album. So I wanted to get it directly from you. Is it a concept album, and if so, how tight a concept is it?

EN: Well, yes, it is a concept album. We wrote the whole record in our band room. We spent about a year after the Church Of Rock And Roll, coming off of that tour, working ourselves to the bone. We were just like “we need some time home, and we need to be creative in that space.” Our previous albums, we always made them separately; like I said, we were in England, and LA, and we were far from home, and we wouldn’t even think about the record until we were in the studio. But this time, we spent a year in Cincinnati, in our hometown, writing the record and making sure that it was what we wanted to say in every way. For me, what that is, is discovering a lot of things I had with my father. This record is a big thing for me with my dad. It has a lot to do with my dad, and the way I see myself in comparison to him and how that relates to my career and what I’ve done with the band so far. I feel like it’s our first concept record because it’s the first time I really channeled something inside of myself to say that's for real, and that’s not broad strokes. Like, before, our albums were just kind of broad strokes that everybody could relate to, and you could take it however you wanted. This is more like I really dug deep inside myself and wrote something about it, and it was very consistent, everything came out of itself and grew. So that’s why I call it a concept record. You really can get the vibe starting from beginning to end.



POZ: Yeah, I think it’s something you’ve done a little bit of before. Like I’m thinking of “Oh Lord,” that was kind of a personal song. But Gonzo definitely feels a lot more personal than most of what you’ve done before.

EN: Yeah, exactly. I think there’s been examples in our work before; certain songs I’ve put that energy into. But I’ve never felt like the album had that energy. So this is the first album where I feel like the whole thing has that energy, as opposed to certain little points here and there. And don’t get me wrong, all of our songs – I don’t just write bullshit. It all means something in its own right. I just feel like this is something special.



POZ: OK, so let’s talk a little bit about the music on Gonzo. Just as a general statement, I feel like the hooks don’t reach as high as they have in past albums. It’s more slinky. There’s a lot more stuff that doesn’t quite resolve in a big, bright, major key chorus. And just knowing what you’ve written before, I have to assume that’s intentional. So I’m curious about how the songwriting evolved for the album, if that was something you were shooting for or if that was just what was coming out.

EN: Well one major factor in the way this record was written, musically, was that Daisy, our bass player on the previous records, and Loren, our guitar player – Loren plays bass on Gonzo and Daisy plays guitar. And that really doesn’t have anything to do with the way the songs were written, but the sound of the songs and how the instruments were being played, that had a lot to do with that. And then from there, just being able to feel fresh and new no matter what we did – it felt different because those guys were on different instruments.

POZ: What was the decision behind that?

EN: There were a lot of things that factored in, but I think the biggest thing was really just trying to challenge ourselves, and get something new out of ourselves. There’s a lot of trials and tribulations revolving around musicianship, and [being in] a band. People give you hard times about things, you’re always competing against robots, and stuff like that. What we wanted to do with this record was just be musicians and not worry about any type of… We literally just played the album in the studio, like how we did in our practice space, and recorded it. I think we just kind of wanted to make sure that everybody was able to pull their weight with that, and just play it.



POZ: It’s funny, I was going to note that the bass on Gonzo, there’s some real fat-and-fuzzy stuff that you guys haven’t done before. And not just that, it feels like instrumentally, just in general you changed things up a lot. A lot of Sky’s work is more synth-y and less piano-y, if that makes sense. Playing with sounds, rather than using the synth as a piano substitute. And Alex is all over the album. Actually, can you talk a little about that, because that’s the one thing that really stood out to me, that horn is just everywhere and I really love it.

EN: Yeah, on our previous albums, what we would do, me and him would really focus on the lyrics and the melodies – we would do that together. And his horn thing was kind of secondary. But for this time, I wrote all the lyrics, I wrote all the melodies for the vocals, and Alex focused on his horn parts, which were really able to make both things shine a little more personally, because we were both focusing on our respective instruments.

POZ: That makes sense, because his horn takes a lot of the melodic leads on the album, even over your voice.

EN: Yeah, definitely. It’s a bigger part in this record than it’s ever been before. What Alex does on the horn has always been one of my favorite things about our band so I’m glad that it was able to be honed in on on this record.



POZ: So you guys recorded with Steve Albini, which, I mean, I’m old enough to understand the significance of that. I think maybe for a lot of younger kids, that doesn’t mean that much. But at least to me, that’s a big deal. Partly because of his stature, but mostly because he’s so different with his recording style than most traditional producers would be – he doesn’t even call himself a “producer.” [Albini insists on being credited, if at all, as a “recording engineer”]. So how did you come to the decision to work with him? Were you looking for something specific in going to him?

EN: Well the decision was made to do Steve because he’s a master of recording what you’re good at. What I wanted to do this time around was, I wanted to put the chips on us, on our band and on our individual ability. And that even goes for production. I wanted to put all the chips on us. I didn’t want to rely on anybody else. And he’s really the only person around nowadays on his level who just records. He doesn’t try to stick his hands in any creativeness. He just captures what you’re doing, in a really amazing way. It’s organic, there’s no bells and whistles, it’s just microphones and recording. It’s all analog, which makes it great for vinyl, and the quality is there with the sound. I mentioned earlier, the record was done before we even got to the studio. That’s what I mean by us putting our chips on ourselves, instead of being like “oh, we’re going to do the record with this producer and he’ll make it sound great.” We’re going to make it sound great here and now, and then we’re going to bring that and somebody’s going to push “Record.”

POZ: Were you writing with having Albini recording in mind, or was it the kind of thing where once you knew he was going to do it, you knew what you needed to do to make it work?

EN: I think we knew we were going to use Albini, and I think we wrote the record with that in mind. What we wanted to do was just make it ourselves, you know? We didn’t want any bells and whistles and stuff. What I wanted to make sure happened was, whatever it was that we were bringing in the practice room, that’s what it’s going to be, and I didn’t have to worry about thinking “oh, it’s going to be different when we record it, we’re going to add this and that.” When we were writing it, I was like “no, there’s not going to be anything extra. This is how it’s going to sound, and this is how it will be on the record. So we need to make it sound good now. Not later.” We didn’t want to be like “oh, this isn’t right now, but it will be good when we double it” or something. No. There’s no doubles. There’s no nothing.

POZ: There’s no overdubs or any of that kind of stuff?

EN: No. The only overdub on the whole record is in “Story Told,” at the end there’s a horn double. That’s the only horn double, and that’s the only double on the whole record. Everything else, we just did in sequence in the room, all together. Even vocals, right there and then, and just played it. And the reason we were able to do that was because we had practiced so much beforehand and had it all ready to go. That’s something Steve is meant for, you know? He’s meant for capturing something like that. When you get to him, that’s just the end process.



POZ: That approach seems very noticeable on your vocals, at least to my ear. It seems like there’s not a lot of reverb on there. I don’t know if there was any pitch correction at all…

EN: Oh, no, no.

POZ: Was that a challenge for you? Having to hit all of it the first time out, without assistance? Not to knock your singing at all, I guess I’m speaking more to the limits of human capability.

EN: I felt like it was easier than ever before to record vocals this way, because it was like, whatever you want to do is not wrong, it’s right. When you’re doing it with these robots, and pitch correction and all of that, there is a right place for you to be singing. But this way, it’s just the way I want to do it. And that’s the right way.

POZ: Were you shooting to capture a rawness that matched the lyrics and the theme of the album?

EN: Yeah, I think that all kind of came to me when I was building the vocal. That was in the practice room. I would feel the music as I was writing. I wouldn’t have lyrics, I would just sing notes and melodies, and whatever it was that the music made me do, I would do it. And then I would write lyrics to that melody. I think it made me have the song in my blood. It wasn’t an effort to try and sing it, it was just there, and I had to sing it normal, like I’m talking to you.



POZ: How was working with Steve Albini personally? How was interacting with him?

EN: It was really funny! He’s very, very funny. I didn’t know what to expect with him. He’s somebody that people talk about notoriously.

POZ: Yeah, he can be pretty caustic, that’s why I was curious.

EN: Yeah, I didn’t know what to expect going in. But I knew as long as I had my story together, as long as I was doing whatever it was that I was doing, and doing it the way I wanted to do it, confidently, then he would respect that. And he did, you know? We just went in and did our thing, and he was on top of it. I felt like we were on top of it, he was on top of it – we made a record together. And we joked around about farting. Farting in bottles. So much funny stuff. He’s just this normal guy. Loves music, and has a passion for recording it.



POZ: So now the record is out. You announced a tour at the same time as you announced the album. What’s in store for this tour?

EN: Larry and His Flask open. We met them on Warped Tour 2012, I want to say, or 2011, one of those, I can’t remember. But they were on Warped Tour, and they always made an impression on me live. Foxy does our thing live, I feel like we’ve got our groove live, we always have. I rarely come across a band where I’m like “they’ve got their own groove live, this is special to watch.” It’s usually like “oh, whatever.” Even if I like the band, it’s usually boring to watch. They made an impression on me, and I feel like bands that do that, there’s a value in the ticket. So those guys are going to open the show. And then we’re going to come on, we’re going to play Gonzo with the whole Gonzo look – it’s going to be, aesthetically and visually, just completely different. We’re going to play the album from front to back in sequence, and then take a five minute intermission and come back and play old Foxy stuff, in whatever way we want. But there’s going to be two Foxy sets. So essentially there’s three bands playing, but two of the bands is Foxy. Gonzo is the first one.



POZ: Are you looking past this tour and to more stuff coming up?

EN: Yeah, we’re doing east coast with this tour, and then very soon after doing west coast, hitting that whole side of the country up, and then going overseas with the record too. And we have a video coming out soon that I’m really excited about, because the visual side of Gonzo is something that… I always say this about all of our records, but the visual side is just as important to me, and I put just as much heart into that as I do the music, because I feel like it explains the sound to the ear better when you’re watching it.

POZ: Which song are you doing the video for?

EN: We’re doing the video for “Tragic Thrill”.

POZ: Oh, excellent, excellent! That’s my favorite song on the album.

EN: Cool man! I picked that one because I felt like… I just had this vision for it. We did the video with a new director that we have never done an official music video with, but we’ve done side videos with. His name is Ryan Mackfall and he’s from the UK. It’s our best Foxy video yet. That’s something I take a lot of pride in, so I can’t wait to show it to people.

POZ: Awesome, I can’t wait to see it! That’s an interesting choice, because not only doesn’t “Tragic Thrill” really sound like anything else Foxy’s done before, it also doesn’t sound a lot like the rest of Gonzo. Why did you decide on that song? Was it because it worked with a particular visual you pictured?

EN: I think that it’s the most extreme. It’s one of the points in the record where I think it takes a turn. It’s an important point in the record. It’s the first big climax of the record when you’re listening to it, conceptually and musically, when you’re listening to the record back to front in sequence. “Tragic Thrill” seems like the first moment, you know? As far as what I’m trying to say, and the feeling we’re trying to [make] come across. That’s what I wanted to visualize and show people for the first video. And then the next one will be… whatever, I haven’t even thought about that yet. But I think that’s a good place to start. I feel like we really depicted what we were trying to say.

POZ: Do you know when that will be out?

EN: I’m not sure. We don’t have an exact date for it. We’re going to use it in between the record release and the tour. All the buzz and stuff from the album release is still going strong, so we’re just going to drop the video in the middle just to keep everybody captivated until the tour.



POZ: I’m curious, what are you guys listening to now? What is inspiring you? I’m curious what influenced the sound on Gonzo.

EN: What I did intentionally with Gonzo, I intentionally did not listen to music. Because music is everything to me, and I enjoy all kinds, I love music and I love listening to it, being inspired by it. But for me, with this record, what I wanted to do was channel something inside myself so specific that I really couldn’t concern myself with what people were doing musically. What was making money. What do they want. What does anybody want. What our fans expect. I had to tune all of that out. With this album, I literally just didn’t listen to anything. I watched a lot of interviews with actors, like on YouTube, like with Marlon Brando and James Franco and Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio. For some reason I find this actor in a role so inspiring, and how they just take on different forms from movie to movie. That’s something that, I don’t know, I’ve always been attracted to. So a lot of my inspiration comes from actors on a role.

POZ: That’s so interesting, because to me it feels like a lot of your past work has been you inhabiting one role or another, and Gonzo feels almost a little less that way. A little more pure, a little more stripping-the-facade-off.

EN: Yeah, I think the cool thing about it though is that I’ve been fooling people the whole time. So it’s kind of been refreshing to see, maybe, what’s behind the mask, in a way. In the same right, it’s a whole new character that nobody’s ever seen before. Maybe it isn’t an actor and role. Who knows, you know? I guess we’ll find out next record. Or the one after that.



POZ: The last thing I wanted to ask is, the album is titled Gonzo; so is the lead track. And in the final track, “Story Told,” you come back to reference the lyric “I’m going gonzo” again, bringing it full circle. What does “gonzo” mean to you?

EN: For me, gonzo is… I feel like my dad has lost his mind a little bit. Like, since I was a kid, I just feel like my dad’s lost his mind. And I think that’s been something that’s hereditary in our family. I think “gonzo,” for me, is my fear of what I might… It’s like me applying my dad to myself, and my band and my career and everything. Just imagining. Or really being fearful of what’s to come.



POZ: Obviously this is getting pretty personal, but can you talk a little bit more about what’s going on with your dad?

EN: Well, I mean… I don’t know. Nobody in my family will really talk about it. It’s something that’s always been extremely private. The part about it that really messes me up is that I’ve always looked up to my dad. He’s been the thing inside me, where I’ve always been like “ok, I need to channel my dad.” Like, onstage, if you’ve seen Foxy live, all the antics and everything in between songs, that’s all inspired from my dad. I’ve always looked to him, I’ve always channeled my dad as being my uniqueness. What I hold in myself to be my special thing that sets me apart from everybody. And then when I got home from the Church Of Rock And Roll [Tour], and being gone for so long, I saw him again, and it was like… Whatever it was I saw before that was inspiring me now became a threat. Or more, like, scary. I just didn’t get it. It almost made me think the thing I’ve been channeling this whole time is actually not good for me. That whole realization is what I’m writing about with Gonzo. I don’t even know how… I haven’t shown him this record yet. And I always show him our records, before they even come out. I haven’t shown him this at all.

POZ: Do you guys have a close relationship?

EN: We do. I’ve never been able to really talk to him. I think he’s kind of… He’s at a point now where I can’t. Anything I say to him, he’s not even hearing me.

POZ: So writing about this, and putting it all into the album, were you looking for a way to get past that? To exorcise it from your own life? Were you looking to inhabit it to try and understand it?

EN: I think I was just trying to get it out. Because I can’t. I can’t. I couldn’t talk to him about it. I never would be able to, you know? And I don’t think… Obviously, my family doesn’t want to talk about it. So I think this is just kind of like the only way I can really just get it out. And it’s kind of like, I fear that I’m going to be like him someday, and not… you know? But that’s just…



POZ: You’re a son, but you’re also a father. What do you try and take from your own father’s experience, that you can try and not have things end up that way when you’re in that place?

EN: I think communication and hard work, making sure I prove to my kids that I’ve been… Like, the only thing I’ve been put on this earth to do is music, and I will never lose sight of that, I will always be here making records, one after another. It’s always my intention to make a better record than I did last time. And just communicating with them, and making sure they can talk to me. Because for me… I don’t know. It’s really hard to even think about it, because it comes so full-circle sometimes. When I’m thinking about my dad and how he affected me, and how I’m a dad and how that’s going to affect my kids. But at the same time, as hard as it is, I’m glad I was able to dig this out of myself and write about it and have that release. And it’s kind of a sad thing for me. Well, it is a sad thing. It’s scary for me. It’s very scary. I walk around my neighborhood and I listen to the record that I did based on these feelings, and I feel so happy. So it’s like I’m hearing myself talk about what is making me sad, or sing about what’s making me sad, but at the same time it makes me happy to hear me sing that, that I’m just able to do it and sing it so that everybody…



POZ: Do you play your kids your albums? Are they at the point where you think they can kind of understand them yet?

EN: Yeah. They love it, and all their friends love it. It was a big thing in their school. We went through that whole thing together. And then Gonzo is something I don’t think anybody saw coming, let alone them. But I think they know what I’m saying, and they feel it. I think they feel the record.

POZ: I guess what I was thinking is, you mentioned how one of the ways to fight against that is communication, and so I was wondering if Gonzo is, in some way, you communicating with your own kids about the relationship between you and your father. Opening that window for them that way.

EN: Yeah, man. I think for sure. I’ve never even thought about it, but I think it’s definitely about communication. When I’m gone, my music is gonna be the thing that tells my story, so I think that, unintentionally, when they go back and listen to it when I’m gone, they’ll be able to understand what I’m saying. And I know that for sure.



POZ: So I guess the only other thing I want to ask is, are you happy with how it came out? Now that it’s a final thing, out in the world, how do you feel about it all?

EN: I feel like there’s no way that anything could go wrong now, because we’re in charge. We’re beholden to no one. Foxy Shazam is its own thing, and I feel like we’re just… We exist. And there’s no denying that. We’re here to stay, and we’ll be here forever. And we’re going to be building our fanbase, and building our career, and building our band. Like I said before, we’ll make record after record, and everyone will make sure that it’s better than the next, in our opinion. I can’t be happier with the way that it turned out because it was a major change for us, and a big step forward, in ways that we’ve never stepped forward before. I feel completely empowered. I have the advantage on everybody that has ever tried to [release an album] with labels and stuff, you know? Compromise and stuff. Compromising with people when you don’t feel like you need to. It’s like, this is what I do, and I’m happy to bring that to people for free.