ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I’m Alison Beard. I’m talking with Ricky Gervais, creator of the hit television series The Office, and the subject of the “Life’s Work” interview in our April magazine. Ricky, thanks so much for joining us today. I know you’re involved in TV, film, stand-up, a children’s book series, podcasts. Why do you keep yourself so busy?

RICKY GERVAIS: Well, I remind myself that it’s not real work. You know? My dad was a laborer. And he used to get up at 5:30 every morning. He worked for 50 years of his life, in all weathers, for, by showbiz standards, petty cash. I remind myself of that when I feel a little bit spoiled or hard done by.

Winston Churchill said if you find something, a job you really love, you’ll never work again. And that’s what it feels like. I was a very lazy person, unambitious, a slacker, did what I wanted. But now I feel I’m a workaholic because of the privileged position I’ve found myself in.

ALISON BEARD: And you’ve obviously become quite famous. So how do you feel about that?

RICKY GERVAIS: Fame is an upshot of what I do. If you’re a successful comedian or actor, then you’re a famous one. But it’s not the driving force. It’s a by-product.

But there’s nothing wrong with wanting to become a success and better yourself. That’s fine. If I was a research scientist, I’d want people to say, you know what, he’s a great research scientist, that Ricky Gervais. He’s really good, really good. You know, I’d go to award ceremonies for research scientists and go, yeah, I really worked hard, yeah. It’s brilliant.

There’s nothing wrong with being respected by your peers. There’s nothing wrong with trying to do your best. There’s nothing wrong with success. There’s not even anything wrong with trying to get a raise. There’s nothing wrong with that. But when you don’t know why you’re doing it– I just want to sit people down and go, why? Just keep saying, why? I ask why every day. Why am I doing this? What’s the best that can happen? I won’t do it. Why am I doing it? Because it’s fun. OK. Are there any– I just this thing is strange, and being famous is the worst of it.

I’d rather people want to be rich than want to be famous, because at least that’s real freedom. That’s something tangible. I’ve never really been a fan of money, per se either, because I suppose I was brought up in a very poor, working class family. And there was a nobility in poverty. And I’ve never lost that, really. And money’s never excited me. I’ve never done anything for a million pounds that I wouldn’t have done for free.

Likewise, joking aside, the awards, they’re a thrill. But deep down, I know it’s only the opinions of a few people. It doesn’t matter whether you win or lose. What matters is the work, the work you did. You tried your hardest. And you’re proud of it. And you brought something into the world. That’s the important thing. Pride in your work’s great. I think it’s brilliant.

ALISON BEARD: So the British Office was famously your big break. Why did you choose that setting?

RICKY GERVAIS: Well, the office setting, for many reasons. Write about what you know. I worked in an office for seven years. And as I say, I must have made mental notes. And I started off on reception. And then, I became assistant to a manager. And then, I became middle management. And then, I started going to staff training. And by the end, I was the events manager. So it was seven years of doing that. So all the stuff from The Office comes from that. So that’s how I knew all the sort of convoluted business speak and stuff.

ALISON BEARD: So why do you think it was such a success?

RICKY GERVAIS: It dealt with universal themes. It was about wanting to belong. It was about boy meets girl. It was about being thrown together. It was about making a difference. It was all those things that everyone identifies with immediately. And it doesn’t matter whether you’re in Slough or Scranton or across America or Israel or any other place The Office is remade. It’s about normal people trying to get a piece, get through life. And people identify with that. You know?

I didn’t have to explain anything. I didn’t have to explain what being a lawyer’s like or what being a surgeon’s like or what living on a base on Mars is like. It’s just, they work in an office. It’s arbitrary who you work with. They work there for eight hours a day. They don’t all like it. And people will go, yep, I understand. Fine. Now let’s get on with it.

But mainly, it’s because I knew it inside out. And I got it right. I nailed it. That was my vision. That was my experience. I couldn’t get it wrong.

ALISON BEARD: So where did you come up with the character you played, David Brent, the boss?

RICKY GERVAIS: Well, it’s not a simple answer. The simplest answer, which is true, but not the whole story, is that he’s a Frankenstein of a few people that I met growing up. Those people that worry more about their reputation than their character. And that’s a subtle distinction really, because they’re both very important. But your reputation is what people think of you. Your character is who you really are. So there was a little bit of that in there. And that can manifest itself in pretension, being needy, being two-faced, all those things that we threw into the mix. And not nasty people– David Brent wasn’t a nasty person. As I say, probably his worst crime was he mistook popularity for respect, if I’m really reducing his character.

ALISON BEARD: So what sort of boss are you like in real life?

RICKY GERVAIS: Well, hopefully a lot more self-aware than David Brent. It’s funny because I went to all the management training, and I was cynical. But then you sort of embrace your industry. And I quite got into team building. And I realized I was doing all those things intuitively. I did like all the people I worked with. And I did like a drink with everyone after work. And it was a really fun place to work.

And so I think the important thing with being a manager is just be fair. If you’re fair, then you can’t go wrong. You’ve got to be up front and just fair. And then, whatever you do, people can’t help you on it. I think fairness is the most important thing in managing a team. I really do. If everything’s out in the open, people might not like it, because they’re not getting the thick end of the wedge.

ALISON BEARD: I’ve read that you insist on complete creative control on every project. Is that right?

RICKY GERVAIS: I am a complete fascist. And I think you should be in art. I don’t think I’m the best producer or director or actor in the world, but I know how I want it done. And that’s all this job is. This is making sure it’s done how I want it. And if you do exactly what you want, and you’re in charge, whatever people think of it, you’re bulletproof.

So I don’t try and please anyone except myself. And if people like what I do, that’s fantastic. But if they don’t like it, then that’s good too, really. Because if you start trying to water it down or second guess people, you end up with something so safe and homogenized that a lot of people will like, but they won’t love it. And I’ve always rather wanted to do something that really moves a million people than washes over 10 million. I really wouldn’t have it any other way.

And the bigger you get, the more successful you get, the more hated you are. But you should relish that as well, because it means you’re making a connection. And I think the point of art is to make a connection.

ALISON BEARD: But at the same time, you collaborate with Stephen Merchant on most, if not all, of your television and film projects, right? So tell me a little bit about how that works.

RICKY GERVAIS: Well, yeah. It’s twice as fun, which makes it easier. It helps that there’s two people. There’s two heads are better than one. But there’s a compromise, which is bad of course. The best thing’s always single vision. So you’ve got to find a single vision between the two of you. So one, it’s luck that out of 6 billion people, I bumped into someone who sees eye to eye with me on 90% of everything we talk about.

You find a real interpersonal platform. You find subjects you’re both excited about that you can write about to keep conflict down. But then, we found this golden rule that it was a revelation, and we’ve kept to it ever since. And that is, with all the brainstorming, all the acting out, all those things that you come up with, one veto and it’s out. So we don’t have to justify why we don’t like that idea. We don’t compromise the idea. It just goes. So what you’re left with in the finished product is, every second of that thing, you both love it.

And it means the material we use up is phenomenal. Of course, the cutting room floor is knee-deep compared to other projects, I imagine. But hopefully, what we’re left with, we’re proud of. And we’re not only proud of at the time, but we are proud of in 25 years time because all that work has gone into it. And it’s just so dense and pure, hopefully.

ALISON BEARD: Are you that good at editing on your own? I mean, do you have a powerful inner critic?

RICKY GERVAIS: Yeah, probably not though. But the things I work out on my own– one, stand up. It’s an evolution. And it’s sort of a process of natural selection. So the audience chooses the best bits. They either laugh or they don’t. So if I do something that isn’t funny, they don’t laugh. And it doesn’t survive. If I say something that is funny, it’s funny every time. And so what you’re left with at the end of a series of gigs is a survival of the fittest. It’s the best gene pool that I could have come up with. So I’ve got a room full of 10,000 collaborators and critics.

What else? The things I do by myself– I suppose the children’s book. But then, it’s so silly and surreal that I just do things that make me laugh. And I always think that if I do something that genuinely makes me laugh, with no ulterior motive other than, that’s funny, then there will be someone else in the world that finds it as funny as me. And with 6 billion people in the world, there’s probably quite a few people that find it as funny as me. And that’ll do for me. That really will do.

ALISON BEARD: That was Ricky Gervais. For more “Life’s Work” interviews, visit hbr.org.