EnderSword Profile Joined September 2010 Canada 662 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-25 06:51:14 #1 Hello there,



I'm in the Toronto area and work with eSports Canada, but this question could easily be applied more broadly.



What I've observed over the past 2 years is essentially that our BarCrafts get pretty good turnouts and live events like WCG and NASL get amazing turn outs.



However, when we try and hold a LAN or smaller tournament, attendance drops from 100+ for a BarCraft to about 20 willing to play or watch.



Largely we only really get Masters+ players, their friends and a few hardcore community people.



I was wondering what could be offered at small BYOCs or Internet Cafes that would get people from lower leagues or even just non-1v1 players interested in actually participating.



We've been thinking of holding a tournament alongside just a group of people playing monobattles, team games, Day9 type challenges, some coaching from pros etc... kind of brain storming ideas.



If you're say a Bronze to Diamond player who likes the game but isn't interested in competing 1 on 1, what things would appeal to you and get you to want to attend live events and actually play?



If you're really into SC2 but have never attended a live event or BarCraft in your area (assuming there has been one) what has kept you from going?



I thought of making this a poll, but I think Qualitative answers might be more telling.



Thanks for any responses and insights



EnderSword Bronze/Silver/Gold level Guides - www.youtube.com/user/EnderSword

SickeL Profile Blog Joined June 2012 88 Posts #2 Crowd Q&As with the pros and casters, just letting the people ask questions directly- cut the middleman out, no more interviewers doing it for us. A wise man once said "Oppa Gangnam style."

Eggi Profile Blog Joined December 2012 475 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-25 07:21:07 #3 I recently played at ESC championships in Toronto and yes the turn out(and stream viewership) was low also.



To be honest there is alot better things people could be doing than watching/going to this.

We are over saturated with tournaments and players streaming



Barcrafts have appeal because you can be at a bar (with friends usually) and youre just really there to eat and have fun while you watch.

Big name tournaments big name player, even though ESC had some named players, its not enough. People want production big venue etc. A small dingy basement in Toronto just doesn't cut it(no offence to the organizers but thats what it was.





To be honest its going to be impossible to get small LAN events to be anything but big.

I mean you can, but you wont make the LAN profitable its hard to balance everything in a small LAN.

You could give away free stuff etc but whats the points Esports a business at the end of the day.



Either

A) spread out prizes more into the lower standing(top 8 etc) or else you wont get people to come play

Aa) BUT you cant make the 1st and 2nd to low or else the big names wont come



Pokemon Trading card game was dying at one point, but Nintendo was able to rejuvenate it.

How?

a) Free tournament entry

b) cut prizes(because of free entry but this brought in more players, noobs dont want to pay and lose)

c) tournament series that actually mean something(gain points etc to gain prizes so even if you dont win money you get points to maybe redeem prizes in future which helps people to continuously come to tournaments)



Thats how they did it in Pokemon trading card game They cut a little bit of the 1st/2nd place prizes and trickled it down to the others because Pro players would come in a mop the floor of the noobs, but it had enough incentive for Pros to come.



Now you cant have a free entry to SC2 tournament but you can apply the others to it.

Honestly I wont come to a SC2 LAN in toronto anymore most likely because it "one and done"



-Youre going to have set up a series of tournaments that actually mean something and not have one every 2-4 months.

-You have to be consistent with it, because thats how you get things to grow.

-Have a points system which tracks players on how they did in tournaments.

-ESC had a good start with 2 qualifiers for ESC inals, but due to i dont know what, it turned out to be showmatches with some pros and semi-pros I was heavily dissapointed that the finals was not really a "tournament"



If i know that every week there is a LAN, I would go to that or atleast everything Months(bi-weekly) in which i could gain points etc.... If you guys throw out a low prize tournaments every 4 months(Under $100) its really not going to work





tl;dr Build a community, and have a consistent LAN tournament base. I could help you with ideas since I have 10 years of tournament and community building experience but I dont have time to organize it.



Just my 2 cents.







sambo400 Profile Joined March 2011 United States 377 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-25 13:01:42 #4 Noobs/Causals hate things that aren't instantly gratifying. At barcrafts you have food and alcohol so everybody wins, but at tournaments you might lose quickly, which most people want no part of.



Perhaps offering a Swiss style tournament would be better, with cuts once you are -2 or -3 or so, or spending more on door prizes and less on 1st/2nd place. Or maybe just straight up offer a prize for any Bronze-Plat players who enter, since the main thing it sounds like you want is warm bodies and you don't really care who they are, and low level players by definition are 80% of the player base.



For most High level players, I bet a lot would show up regardless of what the prize pool is, because they just like to compete (which is the reason they are high level in the first place)

FuRong Profile Joined April 2010 New Zealand 3026 Posts #5 I think you need more options for people who are not super competitive, and especially for those who don't play 1v1. Also, I think you need a social element which encourages people to meet each other and interact rather than just hang out in a corner with the one or two other friends they came with.



You could have random eight player FFAs or UMS games which people can just jump into, perhaps with a token prize for the winners. It doesn't have to be all Starcraft either, there's no reason why you couldn't have some computers running other games, an air hockey table, a poker table, DDR, whatever people would be interested in. Have a prize for the longest streak or highest score achieved all day. As long as you have a screen with games from the main tournament showing in the background, people can still half-watch while chatting or focusing on something else, the same as they would at a Barcraft. Don't hate the player, hate the game

thrawn2112 Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 6918 Posts #6 Take some lessons from the fighting game community. The key to attracting large, consistent crowds is not by offering a huge prize pool or amazing venue, you need to grow a local grass roots community. The draw will be to come and hang out with friends. People are way more likely to go to an event where they know everyone else, rather than a highly competitive event where people just sit around not talking.



-Have consistent meetups where people play "casual matches." You can take the game seriously and improve while also maintaining a friendly atmosphere. Back when I was into SFIV there were 2-3 locations people showed up to at specific times each week, no questions asked. We would start with "casual" matches, (casual in quotation marks because we still took the games seriously) and halfway through the night we would organize a small tournament... something like $5 entry fee with either winner take all format or a top 3 split.



-Organize road trips with said community to bigger events. (carpool, shared hotel rooms etc)



-Alcohol



The key is not the game, it's the community around the game. People show up to socialize and being able to play sc2 is an added benefit. Consistency is the most important part... once you establish a community the rest will take care of itself. "People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES

Eggi Profile Blog Joined December 2012 475 Posts #7 All these people are correct setting up a "league" where points can be got and no prizes is a great way to get noobs to come.

lolstarz Profile Joined June 2011 Canada 65 Posts #8 On December 26 2012 01:08 SoOJuuu wrote:

All these people are correct setting up a "league" where points can be got and no prizes is a great way to get noobs to come.



In theory this sounds great, and I'm not sure I disagree with it, but here's my experience with this idea:



I play a board game called Go, and have been a member of the Canadian Go Association for 5 or 6 years now. In Go, much like SC, if a high ranking player shows up to a tournament, it's guaranteed that the casuals and intermediates like me have 0 chance of winning anything. To try and get more active players, the CGA implemented a league with divisions, where consistent wins would promote you into higher divisions and losses could get you demoted, much like the SC2 ladder (although more transparent). The idea was, keep people playing games around their skill level , and give the games some meaning, and then people will stay active.



Initial interest was great, huge signups. But then the problem was, only the people in the top two divisions (aka the Masters+ players from the topic creator's story) reliably played their games. People in the lower divisions could expect a walkover for noshow as often as not, which made it a lot of trouble for no fun.



The CGA tried a lot of different scheduling rules but I haven't played in the league for quite some time now because it wasn't worth the trouble, even though I was in the third division from the top. I don't think leagues are a bad idea, but you have to keep in mind that the people who tend to care the most about getting regular matches in to improve are already the people at the top of the ladder, ie. the people who would go to your tournament LANs anyway.



Just my 2 cents In theory this sounds great, and I'm not sure I disagree with it, but here's my experience with this idea:I play a board game called Go, and have been a member of the Canadian Go Association for 5 or 6 years now. In Go, much like SC, if a high ranking player shows up to a tournament, it's guaranteed that the casuals and intermediates like me have 0 chance of winning anything. To try and get more active players, the CGA implemented a league with divisions, where consistent wins would promote you into higher divisions and losses could get you demoted, much like the SC2 ladder (although more transparent). The idea was, keep people playing games around their skill level , and give the games some meaning, and then people will stay active.Initial interest was great, huge signups. But then the problem was, only the people in the top two divisions (aka the Masters+ players from the topic creator's story) reliably played their games. People in the lower divisions could expect a walkover for noshow as often as not, which made it a lot of trouble for no fun.The CGA tried a lot of different scheduling rules but I haven't played in the league for quite some time now because it wasn't worth the trouble, even though I was in the third division from the top. I don't think leagues are a bad idea, but you have to keep in mind that the people who tend to care the most about getting regular matches in to improve are already the people at the top of the ladder, ie. the people who would go to your tournament LANs anyway.Just my 2 cents

Eggi Profile Blog Joined December 2012 475 Posts #9 agreed League usually has lower turnouts.



But what we really need is

a) a hero who is willing to actually step up and be consistent with running this stuff

b) a good venue



Its tough but im willing to help out, Im good with marketing and so forth.

Larkin Profile Blog Joined January 2012 United Kingdom 7149 Posts #10 Bronze to Diamond is difficult. I'm in that region but I'm interested in the pro scene because I've been in eSports since 2007, and with SC2 I want to get better, so I'd be interested in that kind of thing. Unfortunately the same can't be said for everyone - or indeed the vast majority - of players of my level. They just don't care enough. It's just a casual thing they play occasionally and don't take seriously, like most peoples' attitudes to games. https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague

JimmyJRaynor Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 14097 Posts #11 Part of it has to do with your choice of game.

Over the years EA NHL Tournaments have worked best in the Toronto area.



And, EA is pretty generous with their support because they realize that Toronto is the biggest hockey city on the planet.



Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"

LarJarsE Profile Blog Joined August 2009 United States 1373 Posts #12 Im currently in Chicopee, Massachusetts. I'm definitely casual but I follow the pro scene daily. I would love to go to an event but they always seem so far away.. As for barcrafts.. the closest ones are in Boston.. There are some in Worcester but I just dont like worcester lol.. I suppose that is my fault.. I need to get out there and show my support for my favorite players and yell loudly about starcraft in a bar. man.. that sounds dreamy to me.



I definitely need to get on top of my game when it comes to visiting barcrafts. As for big events, my work schedule hasnt been allowing me to take a trip like that. ive been at my job long enough where I can take a couple days off so I will definitely be looking out for the next big event that is remotely around here.





Merry Christmas, fuckers! :D since 98'

SolidHaze Profile Joined December 2012 Canada 43 Posts #13 Unfortunately I feel the spot that would be filled by small tonne tournaments is instead filled by lans with invite only between friends. I wouldn't have much interest paying against strangers, that's what ladder is. A LAN should have the incentive of not being high stakes however entry fees raise the stakes already. :-P I'm sorry if this isn't constructive enough. Excelsior!

number01 Profile Joined December 2012 200 Posts #14 From my point of view, the only way to "grow" the sc2 community with casuals is by renting a space in a big mall and setting a lan there. Let everyone in for free and let people play against other people. No competition, no prices, no smurfs or egos, just people playing for fun and fun alone. Have a donation booth where people can insert as much money as they want with the hopes of helping e-sports grow. Idra is the reason I play SC

JimmyJRaynor Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 14097 Posts Last Edited: 2012-12-27 19:05:53 #15 A barcraft is usually on the "championship" Sunday and as you've noted it can draw a big crowd.



Why not hold an local LAN event on the same Saturday as a big weekend event?



The event is sort of "half barcraft"//"half LAN" allowing you to play some games and watch some games. Try marketing it that way. Then, for the people who had fun on Saturday they can also attend the "Sunday Finals" if they want.



Kind of make it a build up type of thing.



Saturday is the "undercard" and Sunday is the "main event".

use the Saturday event to drive traffic and build momentum for the "Big SUnday". Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"

neptunusfisk Profile Blog Joined July 2012 2236 Posts #16 I guess it's easier to just go to a bar and watch some games than to sign up, bring your stuff and playing yourself flash is back woo

Dosinu Profile Joined December 2012 Australia 7 Posts #17 --- Nuked ---