Rhodes: So a couple of things, Jeff. First of all, we would make this deal even on the basis that the Iranian regime is not going to change. So, in other words, this is a nuclear deal, the type we are pursuing that we would make on the merits. And frankly, because we distrust this regime, we would make this deal because it includes the verification measures that allow us the unprecedented access to their nuclear program.

However, if making the deal does help lead to a dynamic where the Iranian regime is moderated, that would obviously be with a preferable course of action. But we’re not banking on that. The purpose of the agreement is not to bet on the notion that Iran will moderate. The purpose of the agreement is to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon throughout the duration of the agreement.

I would say what we’ve seen in recent years as Iran has been isolated is that they prioritized their funding on the nuclear program, they prioritized their funding on the RGC, that the hard-liners are very comfortable—

Goldberg: The Revolutionary Guard.

Rhodes: Yes. They’re very comfortable in the current dynamic where Iran is in the penalty box. They can still operate. They still get their accounts. There is, I think, a possibility that if you have this type of agreement, that there is a different faction of Iranian society that does not feel comfortable with the more hard-line direction of the country that could be empowered, and that could lead to a more moderated policy that would be good for the United States, for Israel, and the whole region. But again, we’re not banking on that.

I do think it’s more likely that that dynamic takes place if there’s a nuclear agreement than if there is not. But again, we’re not going to take any chances on that, and that’s why the deal calls for the verification measures that it does because, ultimately, that’s our best hedge against Iran taking nefarious actions.

Goldberg: How do you feel about these negotiations right now? Do you feel like they’re moving toward a successful conclusion?

Rhodes: Well, I feel like they have come a long way, but there is no guarantee. The reason I think we still put this as a 50/50 proposition is it’s going to come down to a question of political will on the Iranian side. Can they make the final compromises on the key areas that can get this across the goal line?

Ultimately, that decision is going to lie with the Iranian leadership, and until that’s done we don’t know that the deal is going to get done. But again, what’s different about now from November or even July, when there were extensions, is that we’re in the ballpark in terms of the gaps narrowing. We can see what this could look like, but we’re not there yet because the Iranians saw further to move on some issues that we really care about, and we’re not going to make a bad deal, as the president said. We have had plenty of opportunity to accept the bad deal and we haven’t done it.