Masayume Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Netherlands 208 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-12 11:59:13 #1 After receiving good feedback from posters in this blog, I altered examples, recalculated values, added examples and streamlined the content into a thread in the SC2 general forum. You can find it in the link below.



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100



Thank you for all the good feedback! <3



Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.

Blazinghand Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 25130 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-10 16:37:40 #2 On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote:

It is time to check out the Siege Tank from BW. When it is in siege mode, it will deal 70 damage per shot, with a cooldown of 7,5 seconds. This means that the frontload damage of the BW Siege tank is extremely high, but it takes a while before consecutive shots are fired.



There's actually no way this is correct. A siege tank fires much, much quicker than once per 7.5 seconds, even in siege mode. I'm not some amazing pro BW player but I'm 100% sure a sieged tank fires more often than this. There's actually no way this is correct. A siege tank fires much, much quicker than once per 7.5 seconds, even in siege mode. I'm not some amazing pro BW player but I'm 100% sure a sieged tank fires more often than this. When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.

Masayume Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Netherlands 208 Posts #3 I was not too sure about the firing rate of the BW Siege Tank, as I cannot play BW on my computer anymore. I thought it was 6 seconds in BW but then I checked Liquipedia and it said 7.5 sec cooldown. But once again feel free to correct any value and I will edit them if needed.



It still does not change the nature of the argument though. Hopefully someone can verify your comment asap. Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.

Blazinghand Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 25130 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-10 16:48:51 #4 Hm, It does say it has a cooldown of "75" on liquipedia, but I don't know if that's 10ths of a second or what. I seem to recall a seiged up siege tank attacking once every 4.5 real time seconds, but that could just be bad memory on my part. When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.

Serpest Profile Blog Joined February 2011 United States 561 Posts #5 This reminds me of the "Terrible Terrible Damage" trope Browder was quoting non-stop in the first demos of starcraft II. Basically, the entire premise of sc2 is all units deal terrible terrible damage - which does not a good game make. :/ A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.

EienShinwa Profile Joined May 2010 United States 652 Posts #6 Great post. Not sure about the BW tank cooldown as well, but most of what you have written I was nodding in agreement. I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. Alice Roosevelt Longworth

XCetron Profile Joined November 2006 5223 Posts #7 Maybe the posted firing rate for the tank is the regular rate, meaning for normal speed setting. Everyone plays in fastest so this makes it way faster than 7.5 seconds.

Masayume Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Netherlands 208 Posts #8 The same holds true for Starcraft 2 though, where the time is in Blizzard seconds and units fire way faster in the "faster" setting than in real time. But yeah you are probably right! Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.

Woj Profile Blog Joined May 2011 United States 133 Posts #9 Very intersting read! Thank you very much!



Difficult to say if I agree or not but your point makes sense and held my attention :D

HardlyNever Profile Blog Joined July 2011 United States 1249 Posts #10 "Terrible, terrible damage" syndrome (as its come to be known) has been discussed since beta. This is a known and beaten to death topic, to be honest.



You have to consider the other affects as well, though. While most of what you said is true, it means that planning ahead/positioning for battles is more important, preventing harass/drops in the first place are even more important, scouting is more important, things like this. Because things can happen so fast, being proactive and having good map awareness become much more valuable and important.



Whether this is "good game design" or not is up for debate, but you have to consider the abilities/skills that the dps increases rewards, besides just moving deathballs around. Out there, the Kid learned to fend for himself. Learned to build. Learned to break.

Fishgle Profile Blog Joined May 2011 United States 1943 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-10 17:57:06 #11



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318019



a stimmed marine in both brood war and sc2 has 10.5 dps, for example.



the 75 cooldown in bw is 75 frames. Not exactly sure how that translates to second, exactly. Might figure out a little more from:



-edit- methinks the actual overall dps increase is from the improved ai and the bunching up of units. i think you should look at this chart, OP. dps between bw and sc2 actually hasn't changed too much.a stimmed marine in both brood war and sc2 has 10.5 dps, for example.the 75 cooldown in bw is 75 frames. Not exactly sure how that translates to second, exactly. Might figure out a little more from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=12115 From what i see i think it's 20 frames per second, meaning a siege tank with 75 cooldown attacks 75/20 = every 3.75 seconds, which is pretty close to every 3 seconds of sc2.-edit- methinks the actual overall dps increase is from the improved ai and the bunching up of units. aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL

Demonhunter04 Profile Joined July 2011 1530 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-10 18:16:24 #12 The cooldown listed on Liquipedia is probably based on normal game speed, strange as it is.



EDIT: Never mind, the guy above me is probably right.



SC2 has a lot higher dps per area due to unit clumping, though. "If you don't drop sweat today, you will drop tears tomorrow" - SlayerSMMA

Masayume Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Netherlands 208 Posts #13 Thank you for linking that post. Just keep in mind that the "faster" game speed in StarCraft 2 also differs from real time. As an example, a Siege Tank in Siege Mode in SC2 fires once every 2.175 seconds in real time seconds,



I don't have the strength to calculate everything right now but I am pretty sure that this still speeds the game up enough to create all the situations outlined in my post. And it's true that higher dps can reward certain plays as well. But in most cases, it seems to limit options. Thank you for giving good feedback though. It is good to have proper discussions about the game close to the release of a Beta. Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.

Tobberoth Profile Joined August 2010 Sweden 5761 Posts #14 Hmm, I'm surprised, I was certain there was a thread on this exact topic (high dps making battles boring in SC2). Thought I would see like 100 pages when I clicked this O.o



Anyway, yes, the high dps of SC2 is IMO the main reason why the game isn't as interesting as BW was in its prime. When fights end in a few seconds, there's very little potential for micro and tactics and it just comes down to composition, position and reaction time.

Brandhor Profile Joined January 2012 480 Posts #15 great post, although I never really played bw this is exactly what I think it's one of the biggest problem in sc2, especially in pvt, if you have colossi and the terran doesn't have vikings yet you can easily kill him in a few seconds, if he has vikings they'll shoot down the colossi so fast that the stimmed mmm ball will evaporate your army, with ghost and ht is even worse, if the protoss click storm or feedback faster the terran is pretty much dead, if the terran emp or snipe the ht before the storm the protoss is dead



Canas Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Sweden 1500 Posts #16 Psi storm actually lasts closer to 3 seconds in BW, not 8 seconds

Blazinghand Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 25130 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-10 19:14:02 #17 On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote:

Here is where the comparison to BW Psi storm comes in.



In BW, a Psi Storm deals 112 damage over ~8 seconds in ticks of 14 damage. It deals this damage over a larger radius as well but deals its damage a lot slower than a Psi Storm from SC2. Because of the lower DPS, there is more time to move out of the affected area before critical damage is reached. For the player using the Psi Storm, it controls a larger area of the playing field for a longer time than a SC2 Psi Storm would.



Battles that involve Psi Storm last longer now and allow for more control for both the casting and receiving player. There is more time for production waves of units to finish and for reinforcements to arrive, further increasing the duration of fights and their aftermaths. Comebacks are also slightly easier to be made when more production waves can finish before the enemy stands at your doorstep.





I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.



Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.



No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.



The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.



I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.



BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.



I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.



And that's okay.



They're different games. I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.And that's okay.They're different games. When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.

Masayume Profile Blog Joined March 2011 Netherlands 208 Posts #18 I agree with you on the fact that just lowering DPS will not change a thing and it is not my conclusion either. But combining the in Real-time DPS of SC2 with all the other factors I mentioned increases the incentive to play a "deathball" centric style since it is simply most rewarding. Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.

Blazinghand Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 25130 Posts #19 You can change the time values to try to give the players more time to micro, but that doesn't change the fundamentals of the game, which (besides pathing) include things like smarter unit AI, the ability to send an arbitrarily large army somewhere with just a click, SMARTCASTING, MBS, etc.



I'm gonna take a look at your example of muta harass. Regardless of whether or not they deal more damage (since it's unclear how the dps mechanism works), in BW, your muta stack capped out at 11 and it was hard as hell to use. You'd swing it around and do some harass, but eventually you'd be getting your lurkers and making more hatches or whatever. Fundamentally, you will not be building some massive death mutalisk force, and even if you did, it'd be enormously difficult to use in any real fashion.



In Sc2, however, during their time of popularity people would make like 30 mutalisks and harass with them and shit on turrets and marines and mineral lines. Was this because mutalisks had more dps? No, of course not, it's because in BW you literally couldn't harass with more than a certain number of mutalisks unless... I guess if you were literally insane and had 9 hands you could control 2 stacks at once, but good luck trying to macro while doing it.



The issue isn't DPS, it's not how long it takes for mutas to shit on a mineral line (they've always been good at that).



The issue is the fundamental mechanics of the agme. When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.

chambertin Profile Joined August 2011 United States 1704 Posts Last Edited: 2012-07-10 19:11:50 #20 [QUOTE]On July 11 2012 03:53 Blazinghand wrote:

[QUOTE]On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote:



No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms were legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.



[QUOTE]



ahem, are. For just a tick longer... are. T_T "I know one thing, that I know nothing" - Socrates?

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