Frank welcomes permaculture co-originator David Holmgren for a wide ranging discussion on his writings and ideas, including Future Scenarios, Oil vs. Money, and Crash on Demand. In light of the failure of social and political activism to address climate change, David argues that radical reductions in consumption by the middle classes of the industrial countries could in fact crash the global financial system resulting in large reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. He asks us to consider that major changes to our lifestyles and working arrangements may be the only thing capable of shifting the momentum of climate change.