Society can flourish with declining birth rates. That’s what the world needs to know, according to João Abegão, author of The Human Overpopulation Atlas. He wants men and women to desire a smaller family and be able to easily exercise that choice.

Our conversation with João covers depopulation panic and growth mania, civilization collapse, pessimism, overconsumption, the value of simple living, and a billboard campaign in Portugal that celebrated small families (similar to our One Planet, One Child campaign in the U.S.).