Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-24 00:04:25 #1



Recently the community has been discovering MANY MAJOR flaws with the Blizzard map pool such as on:



With our mapmaking squad now making a wide variety of good maps to use that have been played on by all the top players and have shown little to now racial or symmetry based problems.



With all this in mind the scene needs to start moving towards custom maps in my opinion and work on cycling out Blizzard's map. What happens if a Terran wins the GSL on Kulas Ravine? Is that fair to his Zerg opponent that he had to play on a map with significant problems that has no business being in a tournament?



I have been considering moving all iCCup events to a "custom map only" format. But however as always I want to know what the community thinks of this possible change. Please take the time to not only vote on this but explain why you chose the option.



For high level pro players: Please leave your comments here, and I will include them in the OP.



Poll: Should iCCup start making thier events cutom map only ones?



Yes (896)

66%



No, but a majority should be custom (257)

19%



No, LT and Metal should stay (119)

9%



No (77)

6%



1349 total votes (896)66%(257)19%(119)9%(77)6%1349 total votes Your vote: Should iCCup start making thier events cutom map only ones? (Vote): Yes

(Vote): No

(Vote): No, LT and Metal should stay

(Vote): No, but a majority should be custom





With this in mind I am going to ask a second question to the community. Do you think it would be a good idea to have an "iCCup monthly map pool?" I have wanted to do this for awhile.



Basically (just picking random maps here) you would be given a list of X maps that would only be used for that month. Any and all tournaments that want to could use it and it would allow the players to know which maps to practice.



For example:

September iCCup Monthly Map Pool:

Metalopolis

LT

iCCup Fighting Spirit

iCCup Match Point

iCCup Vahalla

iCCup God's Garden

etc...



Now the players KNOW what they need to brush up on and would allow tournaments an easy way to pick their map pool.



Poll: Do you think a iCCup Monthly Map Pool would be a good idea?



Yes (506)

95%



No (29)

5%



535 total votes (506)95%(29)5%535 total votes Your vote: Do you think a iCCup Monthly Map Pool would be a good idea? (Vote): Yes

(Vote): No





Pro players and prominent community figure comments



IdrA on custom maps in general vs. Blizz maps:

Well as you may (or may not) know, iCCup has enlisted the help of three of the brightest mapmakers in the SCII community and formed the iCCup mapmaking team. So far they have created about 20 high level and original maps designed from the ground up for high level play.Recently the community has been discovering MANY MAJOR flaws with the Blizzard map pool such as on: Scrap Station Steppes of War , Metalopolis (no link), among others. Also maps like Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine have deep rooted issues that cannot be fixed by Blizzard's now-famous "add destructible rocks" solution they seem to use to try and fix their maps, and cannot be fixed short of a total map overhaul.With our mapmaking squad now making a wide variety of good maps to use that have been played on by all the top players and have shown little to now racial or symmetry based problems.With all this in mind the scene needs to start moving towards custom maps in my opinion and work on cycling out Blizzard's map. What happens if a Terran wins the GSL on Kulas Ravine? Is that fair to his Zerg opponent that he had to play on a map with significant problems that has no business being in a tournament?I have been considering moving all iCCup events to a "custom map only" format. But however as always I want to know what the community thinks of this possible change. Please take the time to not only vote on this but explain why you chose the option.Please leave your comments here, and I will include them in the OP.With this in mind I am going to ask a second question to the community. Do you think it would be a good idea to have an "iCCup monthly map pool?" I have wanted to do this for awhile.Basically (just picking random maps here) you would be given a list of X maps that would only be used for that month. Any and all tournaments that want to could use it and it would allow the players to know which maps to practice.For example:September iCCup Monthly Map Pool:MetalopolisLTiCCup Fighting SpiritiCCup Match PointiCCup VahallaiCCup God's Gardenetc...Now the players KNOW what they need to brush up on and would allow tournaments an easy way to pick their map pool.IdrA on custom maps in general vs. Blizz maps: On September 23 2010 12:38 IdrA wrote:

tournaments should definitely be moving to custom maps as soon as possible. thorough testing or not theyll be better than the blizz maps, which certainly havent been tested with balance and game quality in mind.



On September 24 2010 00:47 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:

Custom maps are a reason for flames from the viewers and vulnerability for the orgs. You can't just use custom maps that seem okay or that are approved by a few good players. You need to use custom maps that have been tested extensively by absolute top players for hundreds, if not thousands, of games. To get such a system set up is an incredible amount of work (if you are even willing to find top players willing to spend their time playing hundreds of games on maps they may never play in tournaments), and even then if a map turns out to be imbalanced you will still be crucified for designing and including a bad map. Custom maps is a system of perfection which again is very hard to achieve.



There will be small tournaments with custom maps, some may work out some will not. The ones that do will receive praise the others will not. As for the big tournaments these can't make mistakes with balance playing for tens of thousands risking the chance of losing their reputation. They will need a perfect environment to make this happen, an environment I haven't seen yet so far. It's doable but very hard.



Besides all these complications I question anybodies knowledge about balance at this point in the game. Including my own. This too hurts mapmaking a great deal. If you create a map based on last months trends it could be completely balanced one moment and imbalanced the next. All in all it's a very tricky subject.





On September 24 2010 01:07 JWD wrote in response to Nazgul's post:

I don't know if I agree. There's no reason to suspect that viewers would be upset at a custom map with slight faults, when so many of the Blizzard maps have major faults. When the competition is maps that have dreadfully obvious positional and race imbalances (i.e. the Blizzard pool, or most of it), the bar is set very low for custom maps.



Playtesting over thousands of games is ideal but not necessary; the only criterion for a custom map to deserve a spot in a tournament is that it be better than one of the Blizzard maps it is replacing.



There's a chicken and egg problem here too, that can best be addressed by throwing custom maps into the tourney map pools: top players just won't practice on custom maps unless they are being played in tourneys. How are you going to get players to balance test maps (hundreds of games at a time) if nothing may ever ride on games on those maps? Better approach would be to get the best custom maps you can find, playtest them to a reasonable extent, and then just shove them into map pools. If there are problems, the maps can always be edited (yet another advantage over Blizzard maps).



On September 24 2010 01:15 ThisIsJimmy wrote:

Personally, I don't like the inclusion of custom maps in tournaments/showmatches at all. No one has any practice on these maps and no one knows how to play them properly. I would much rather only ladder maps get used in events for the time being, because people know how to play them and the games are higher quality.



Hopefully blizzard will patch their maps but I would rather play on maps with slight imbalances then play on maps that I have never played or seen before and are basically untested.



On September 24 2010 02:57 RyanRushia wrote:

i prefer the standard maps as that is what players practice on... but it doesnt hurt to have the extra ones available for showmatches/whatever



On September 24 2010 08:54 blade55555 wrote:

Yes the faster we have bigger maps and non blizzard the better.



The only blizzard maps I don't mind are LT, Meta, and xelnaga caverns but I would rejoice in tournaments putting better custom maps in that the iccup team has made as I like quiet a few of them ^^







Note: Sorry for not going highly in depth all Raelcun style, but I'm writing this from work so I got to keep ti short and sweet !



Edit: Messed up original poll, put in new one. Note: Sorry for not going highly in depth all Raelcun style, but I'm writing this from work so I got to keep ti short and sweetEdit: Messed up original poll, put in new one. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

Kojaimea Profile Joined April 2010 United Kingdom 277 Posts #2 I love the iCCup maps, but to throw out the Blizzard ones all together seems extreme when a few seem very playable.



I'd keep the best, and have an even larger map pool. The riverbed, dried-up, half full of leaves. Us, listening to a river in the trees.

muzzy Profile Joined March 2010 United States 637 Posts #3 Err this may be a stupid question, but where can I download the iccup SC2 maps? I can find the SC1 maps easily on your site, but I can't seem to locate the SC2 ones. Maybe I'm blind.





thOr6136 Profile Blog Joined July 2009 Slovenia 1492 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-23 14:55:51 #4 I think you should add custom maps only, although metalopolis is fine.

Stegosaur Profile Joined May 2007 Netherlands 1230 Posts #5 It sounds like a great idea, however please try and take a page out of the Korean mappers' book and add some unconventional maps as well (blue storm, peaks, monty hall) because nobody wants to see a bo5 on 5 maps that resemble python. O_o

Cofo Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 1384 Posts #6 Personally, I find games on iCCup maps infinitely more interesting to watch, not only because they allow for it (larger, more complex), but because they're new and fresh and not the same 'ol ladder maps we all play every day.



That being said, I think the occasional ladder map should still be in there, just so the average ladder joe can relate to what they're watching. Some degree of familiarity is nice for spectators. Voted majority custom. + Show Spoiler +

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #7 On September 23 2010 23:55 muzzy wrote:

Err this may be a stupid question, but where can I download the iccup SC2 maps? I can find the SC1 maps easily on your site, but I can't seem to locate the SC2 ones. Maybe I'm blind.





Go onto battle.net and select custom game. Search "iCCup"



Go onto battle.net and select custom game. Search "iCCup" On September 23 2010 23:55 Stegosaur wrote:

It sounds like a great idea, however please try and take a page out of the Korean mappers' book and add some unconventional maps as well (blue storm, peaks, monty hall) because nobody wants to see a bo5 on 5 maps that resemble python.



There has been some. Check out iCCup Triforce There has been some. Check out iCCup Triforce Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

bmml Profile Joined December 2009 United Kingdom 958 Posts #8 The good thing about custom maps is you can actually change them based on feedback, something Blizzard don't seem to give two shits about. I love the idea.

Cofo Profile Blog Joined June 2010 United States 1384 Posts #9 On September 23 2010 23:55 muzzy wrote:

Err this may be a stupid question, but where can I download the iccup SC2 maps? I can find the SC1 maps easily on your site, but I can't seem to locate the SC2 ones. Maybe I'm blind.







Just go to "create game" when you're in game, and search for "Iccup" Just go to "create game" when you're in game, and search for "Iccup" + Show Spoiler +

MoreFaSho Profile Blog Joined May 2010 United States 1427 Posts #10 I don't know if iCCup likes to have proprietary stuff, but is there any consideration to fixing the maps that exist? I think metalopolis would be a perfect map if it were not for the positional imbalances, I also think SoW could be made a bit better.

In general I'm fine with totally new maps, but I think I like the style of quite a few of the blizzard maps and would like to see more of those aspects included in the iCCup maps. For example some of the iCCup maps have no watch towers or no gold mineral patches, something that's on all the Blizzard maps. I'm not saying they HAVE to have these, but I think they're a cool idea. I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work

Seam Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 1092 Posts #11 I vote yes.



I think they are more interesting, and ICCup would prolly be more willing to balance maps than Blizz.(Or faster at least.) I only needed one probe to take down idra. I had to upgrade to a zealot for strelok. - Liquid`Tyler

neobowman Profile Blog Joined March 2008 Canada 3321 Posts #12 Teamsix has great maps too. Iccup's own maps are a bit iffy though Superouman makes great ones. Obviously, both teams have bad maps but most of the ports at least should be fine.

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #13 On September 24 2010 00:00 MoreFasho wrote:

I don't know if iCCup likes to have proprietary stuff, but is there any consideration to fixing the maps that exist? I think metalopolis would be a perfect map if it were not for the positional imbalances, I also think SoW could be made a bit better.

In general I'm fine with totally new maps, but I think I like the style of quite a few of the blizzard maps and would like to see more of those aspects included in the iCCup maps. For example some of the iCCup maps have no watch towers or no gold mineral patches, something that's on all the Blizzard maps. I'm not saying they HAVE to have these, but I think they're a cool idea.



The problem is we are already very limited on map slots (only 10 per account, qq), so why should we waste our slots to fix Blizz's mistakes and at the same time limit the new things we can try?



As for no watch towers or gold these are things we are testing out and will continue to observe. If it becomes a problem they are very easy to add in later. The problem is we are already very limited on map slots (only 10 per account, qq), so why should we waste our slots to fix Blizz's mistakes and at the same time limit the new things we can try?As for no watch towers or gold these are things we are testing out and will continue to observe. If it becomes a problem they are very easy to add in later. Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

DarkspearTribe Profile Joined August 2010 568 Posts Last Edited: 2010-09-23 15:29:54 #14 Yeah use custom maps more



I'm tired of lt and metalopolis being only balanced maps



AND BIGGER MAPS. I really want big maps. Like in BW. Fuck steppes of war as zerg.

FliedLice Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Germany 6909 Posts #15 i want to ladder on iccup maps Kevmeister @ Dota2

muzzy Profile Joined March 2010 United States 637 Posts #16 On September 23 2010 23:58 iCCup.Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 23 2010 23:55 muzzy wrote:

Err this may be a stupid question, but where can I download the iccup SC2 maps? I can find the SC1 maps easily on your site, but I can't seem to locate the SC2 ones. Maybe I'm blind.





Go onto battle.net and select custom game. Search "iCCup"

Go onto battle.net and select custom game. Search "iCCup"

Ah I see, ok, makes sense



Thanks!



I'm running a LAN tourney currently and plan on hosting plenty more and some larger ones in the future, and I definitely want to start incorporating some well designed 3rd party maps, both for variety and balance reasons. Ah I see, ok, makes senseThanks!I'm running a LAN tourney currently and plan on hosting plenty more and some larger ones in the future, and I definitely want to start incorporating some well designed 3rd party maps, both for variety and balance reasons.

Zaphid Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Czech Republic 1494 Posts #17 On September 23 2010 23:55 muzzy wrote:

Err this may be a stupid question, but where can I download the iccup SC2 maps? I can find the SC1 maps easily on your site, but I can't seem to locate the SC2 ones. Maybe I'm blind.







Search for iCCup when creating a game, it gives you all of them.



I have played on a few of them, and they all seem to favor late-game heavily, which is really good for practice, you get to try out all of the possibilities you race has available. Also, you see lot of counter attacking and harassment, simply because the maps are bigger and there is no single choke that your forces have to go through. Expansion timings become essential and macro becomes even more paramount to your success. Frankly, I see no reason as to why Blizzard still refuses to at least feature them, those intended for competitive play are very solid and further playtesting can make them only better. I certainly hope that it's not because they refuse to believe community is able to come up with better maps than them. Their reasoning that they want maps in ladder to be easily understandable for everyone is bullshit, unless by everyone you mean people who refuse to take third. Search for iCCup when creating a game, it gives you all of them.I have played on a few of them, and they all seem to favor late-game heavily, which is really good for practice, you get to try out all of the possibilities you race has available. Also, you see lot of counter attacking and harassment, simply because the maps are bigger and there is no single choke that your forces have to go through. Expansion timings become essential and macro becomes even more paramount to your success. Frankly, I see no reason as to why Blizzard still refuses to at least feature them, those intended for competitive play are very solid and further playtesting can make them only better. I certainly hope that it's not because they refuse to believe community is able to come up with better maps than them. Their reasoning that they want maps in ladder to be easily understandable for everyone is bullshit, unless by everyone you mean people who refuse to take third. I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP

Rigby Profile Joined May 2008 Namibia 18 Posts #18 can we have a link to these maps ? i would like to have a look at them or better present them here for some feedback.

Diamond Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 9882 Posts #19 On September 24 2010 00:05 DarkspearTribe wrote:

Yeah use custom maps more



I'm tired of Tl and metalopolis being only maps



AND BIGGER MAPS. I really want big maps. Like in BW. Fuck steppes of war as zerg.



You should check out the beta for iCCup God's Garden. It's friggin mammoth. Like you can probably get away with a 14 or 16 nexus on it. Also Fighting Spirit, Vahalla, Match Point, and a few others are both also pretty large



On September 24 2010 00:05 FliedLice wrote:

i want to ladder on iccup maps i want to ladder on iccup maps



Me and you both brotha' You should check out the beta for iCCup God's Garden. It's friggin mammoth. Like you can probably get away with a 14 or 16 nexus on it. Also Fighting Spirit, Vahalla, Match Point, and a few others are both also pretty largeMe and you both brotha' Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond

xtfftc Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United Kingdom 2343 Posts #20 Yes, please, and let's hope that others will follow your example.

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