Pro Opinions: Swarm Hosts and Hellbats Text by TL Strategy Graphics by shiroiusagi Pro Opinions: The Swarm Host Problem

(Or Lack Thereof?)

Thanks to Stephano and a few highly visible Swarm Host





Zerg

Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 + 30 vs biological to 15 + 10 vs biological



Hydralisk damage against air increased from 12 to 12 + 4 vs biological



Terran

Removed Transformation Servos upgrade



Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory



TeamLiquid asked Zerg pros from across all three WCS regions their thoughts on Blizzard's proposed changes.



Note: We talked to the players before the release of the test map, but after Blizzard had released their proposed changes.



Note 2: Maybe there's a Terran questionnaire coming soon.



Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvZ?



Liquid`Snute: Yes, players can turtle up on one base to force a draw like we've seen in a few broadcasted matches now. The games last for 2 hours and it doesn't weigh heavily enough if a player is far ahead in economy. The Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor combination is too strong for its cost. Swarm Hosts are not overpowered in the midgame, but in the endgame they're way too strong compared to more expensive-per-supply units such as Brood Lords, Corruptors, Banelings and Infestors.





Liquid`TLO: I haven't played any game yet where it became a problem, usually whenever someone went for Swarm Host he was either so far ahead that he would have won with another strategy as well or died in the transition.





Acer.Nerchio: There is definitely a problem with Swarm Host in ZvZ because there is no counter play to it right now. It's not that hard to get to that composition and it's almost unbeatable because air switch takes too long for the player that is in the economic lead versus the Swarm Host player and he can easily prepare for that (just look at how long it takes to make Brood Lords) with spore+viper. You can try attacking in multiple places but higher amount of queens or spores that kill drops will easily negate that, so if there is a Swarm Host player with experience the games will drag on forever every time.



There should be also a better way to detect burrowed units since overseers die so fast to spores and then there is no way to kill Swarm Hosts. Adding the fact that Swarm Hosts players always make a lot of spores and queens to transfuse makes breaking the camping player almost impossible.





coL.Hendralisk: On NA ladder, which is where I play the vast majority of my games, it's not really an issue. But watching streams, I have noticed people going for a SH style on EU server where the game drags out to a stalemate with obscene numbers of locusts everywhere. Some suggested changes like viper/brood/spore changes will help alleviate this.





Roccat_HyuN: I think they're fine.



[We asked HyuN about the ZvZ stalemates in some foreign tournaments]



Those kind of games don't happen for me. I played Stephano on ladder; when I have the advantage, all I have to do is match his Swarm Hosts with my own Swarm Hosts and overwhelm him with my resource/numbers advantage to win. You can't go Swarm Hosts in an even situation -- without going for mutas first, you can't go for Swarm Hosts. Also, it's possible to just counter them with one big roach-bane attack. I don't understand the problem.





CJ_Hydra: I don't think there is a problem.





SKT_soO: No problem.





AX.Impact: Not in particular.



Yes, players can turtle up on one base to force a draw like we've seen in a few broadcasted matches now. The games last for 2 hours and it doesn't weigh heavily enough if a player is far ahead in economy. The Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor combination is too strong for its cost. Swarm Hosts are not overpowered in the midgame, but in the endgame they're way too strong compared to more expensive-per-supply units such as Brood Lords, Corruptors, Banelings and Infestors.I haven't played any game yet where it became a problem, usually whenever someone went for Swarm Host he was either so far ahead that he would have won with another strategy as well or died in the transition.There is definitely a problem with Swarm Host in ZvZ because there is no counter play to it right now. It's not that hard to get to that composition and it's almost unbeatable because air switch takes too long for the player that is in the economic lead versus the Swarm Host player and he can easily prepare for that (just look at how long it takes to make Brood Lords) with spore+viper. You can try attacking in multiple places but higher amount of queens or spores that kill drops will easily negate that, so if there is a Swarm Host player with experience the games will drag on forever every time.There should be also a better way to detect burrowed units since overseers die so fast to spores and then there is no way to kill Swarm Hosts. Adding the fact that Swarm Hosts players always make a lot of spores and queens to transfuse makes breaking the camping player almost impossible.On NA ladder, which is where I play the vast majority of my games, it's not really an issue. But watching streams, I have noticed people going for a SH style on EU server where the game drags out to a stalemate with obscene numbers of locusts everywhere. Some suggested changes like viper/brood/spore changes will help alleviate this.I think they're fine.Those kind of games don't happen for me. I played Stephano on ladder; when I have the advantage, all I have to do is match his Swarm Hosts with my own Swarm Hosts and overwhelm him with my resource/numbers advantage to win. You can't go Swarm Hosts in an even situation -- without going for mutas first, you can't go for Swarm Hosts. Also, it's possible to just counter them with one big roach-bane attack. I don't understand the problem.I don't think there is a problem.No problem.Not in particular.

What do you think of Blizzard's proposed change to hydralisks and spore crawlers? Are there any other changes that you would like to see?



Liquid`Snute: This will only change the ZvZ midgame and do nothing to prevent SH stalemates. I don't know why they proposed this change, it's not good for anything related to SH. At best, a game here and there that would've been a 2-hour SH game will be averted because of the more volatile midgame. But that's not a fix to the actual problem. The current Hydralisks and Spores are fine as they are. Attention should be directed towards granting Zerg a way to defeat Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor with a more expensive army. Making the Brood Lord immune to abduct would solve the problem without messing with the other match-ups. I hope the developers will give this option a chance.





Liquid`TLO: I don't like those changes that much, they don't seem that necessary. I'm pretty okay with how ZvZ is at the moment so I can't think of any good changes to be honest. The turtle style we've seen a bunch of time hasn't happened to me yet, so maybe that's why!





Acer.Nerchio: It's a very small change which would probably leave Swarm Hosts in ZvZ close to unaffected. Brood Lords would be more viable but in the late game I still think they would not work against mass spores and vipers + queens for transfuse. You need to push with your Brood Lords so you will get abducted every time anyway and you can't really break the Swarm Host line in a reasonable amount of time with Brood Lords. I think mutas could work much better in ZvZ from this point so we would see Swarm Hosts less but I am not sure it would fix the problem since you can start from infestors or something else and then transition to Swarm Hosts. Mass muta play would be viable but it would be still risky and that's not what you aim for in competitive play. You want to have a consistent way to beat a strategy.





coL.Hendralisk: I think with the changes, mutas might become popular in ZvZ again, since roaches are superior right now and reign supreme. It could be worth testing out to see the effects, seems like an interesting idea.





Roccat_HyuN: Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.





CJ_Hydra: In the end, I don't think Blizzard's suggested fixes can change Swarm Host vs Swarm Host. If one player goes SH's and the other player goes SH's in response, having a long, stalemated game is inevitable. It's just like in Brood War TvT, where if one player hunkers down with the intent of going for a long game, then you have no choice in following him along. I don't think a change is needed.



It seems like the fix is aimed at Stephano's recent games. But if you look at Korean leagues where the highest level of competition is at, it's hard to find those kind of SH games because Zerg players play a very tight game and are quick to notice tech switches. If Stephano played Korean players, I don't think he'd be able to play that type of game. I don't think ZvZ needs any kind of patch.





SKT_soO: If you make mutas easier to use, you'll see more Swarm Host use. It seems like where would be less roach vs roach games , and more muta vs muta ,or muta vs Swarm Host games.





AX.Impact: There are barely any games where you see Swarm Host vs. Swarm Host. There's nothing I want changed in particular.



This will only change the ZvZ midgame and do nothing to prevent SH stalemates. I don't know why they proposed this change, it's not good for anything related to SH. At best, a game here and there that would've been a 2-hour SH game will be averted because of the more volatile midgame. But that's not a fix to the actual problem. The current Hydralisks and Spores are fine as they are. Attention should be directed towards granting Zerg a way to defeat Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor with a more expensive army. Making the Brood Lord immune to abduct would solve the problem without messing with the other match-ups. I hope the developers will give this option a chance.I don't like those changes that much, they don't seem that necessary. I'm pretty okay with how ZvZ is at the moment so I can't think of any good changes to be honest. The turtle style we've seen a bunch of time hasn't happened to me yet, so maybe that's why!It's a very small change which would probably leave Swarm Hosts in ZvZ close to unaffected. Brood Lords would be more viable but in the late game I still think they would not work against mass spores and vipers + queens for transfuse. You need to push with your Brood Lords so you will get abducted every time anyway and you can't really break the Swarm Host line in a reasonable amount of time with Brood Lords. I think mutas could work much better in ZvZ from this point so we would see Swarm Hosts less but I am not sure it would fix the problem since you can start from infestors or something else and then transition to Swarm Hosts. Mass muta play would be viable but it would be still risky and that's not what you aim for in competitive play. You want to have a consistent way to beat a strategy.I think with the changes, mutas might become popular in ZvZ again, since roaches are superior right now and reign supreme. It could be worth testing out to see the effects, seems like an interesting idea.Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.In the end, I don't think Blizzard's suggested fixes can change Swarm Host vs Swarm Host. If one player goes SH's and the other player goes SH's in response, having a long, stalemated game is inevitable. It's just like in Brood War TvT, where if one player hunkers down with the intent of going for a long game, then you have no choice in following him along. I don't think a change is needed.It seems like the fix is aimed at Stephano's recent games. But if you look at Korean leagues where the highest level of competition is at, it's hard to find those kind of SH games because Zerg players play a very tight game and are quick to notice tech switches. If Stephano played Korean players, I don't think he'd be able to play that type of game. I don't think ZvZ needs any kind of patch.If you make mutas easier to use, you'll see more Swarm Host use. It seems like where would be less roach vs roach games , and more muta vs muta ,or muta vs Swarm Host games.There are barely any games where you see Swarm Host vs. Swarm Host. There's nothing I want changed in particular.

Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvT?



Liquid`Snute: They are strong but they have to be, to fight Mech. I don't think I can answer this well.





Liquid`TLO: I don't think so, they're necessary vs mech and not really great vs bio. They can be useful vs bio-mech but I don't see any game breaking problem with them.





Acer.Nerchio: ZvT is probably match up that is affected the least by Swarm Hosts since they are primarily used in situations to fight mech and even then it's usually only a few Swarm Hosts not the amounts you see in other match ups. If you want to balance Swarm Hosts you should probably almost ignore ZvT since it has very little play and any changes will not matter that much here since Terran will always have superior army in the late game with mass air.





coL.Hendralisk: SH are only viable vs mech, and without SH it seems mech is way too tough to handle. It causes for long games but without another change, SH is an effective way to deal with mech.





Roccat_HyuN: I think they're fine.





CJ_Hydra: I don't think there is a problem.





SKT_soO: No problem.





AX.Impact: Not in particular.



They are strong but they have to be, to fight Mech. I don't think I can answer this well.I don't think so, they're necessary vs mech and not really great vs bio. They can be useful vs bio-mech but I don't see any game breaking problem with them.ZvT is probably match up that is affected the least by Swarm Hosts since they are primarily used in situations to fight mech and even then it's usually only a few Swarm Hosts not the amounts you see in other match ups. If you want to balance Swarm Hosts you should probably almost ignore ZvT since it has very little play and any changes will not matter that much here since Terran will always have superior army in the late game with mass air.SH are only viable vs mech, and without SH it seems mech is way too tough to handle. It causes for long games but without another change, SH is an effective way to deal with mech.I think they're fine.I don't think there is a problem.No problem.Not in particular.

Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvP?



Liquid`Snute: The locusts' range/movement speed off creep might be a bit too strong. But again, the Swarm Host is a necessity.





Liquid`TLO: There aren't really any other viable late game compositions for Zerg that can fight cost efficient in any way, especially off creep. High level Protoss players are very good at dealing damage and mass expanding vs Swarm Host, so I don't think there's a problem here necessarily. If Swarm Host were weakened you'd need to address a lot of other units at the same time though.





Acer.Nerchio: There is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvP but there is definitely a counter play to it, so the approach should be different than in ZvZ. Very much the same as ZvT, Protoss has stronger late game army than Zerg with mass air (usually Tempest) and Templars but there is no reason why Protoss player should attack a Swarm Host Zerg that is simply sitting in his base. That doesn't work in his favour and he will gain more by sitting in his base himself which leads to terrible stalemates (Mana vs Firecake come up to mind, Mana tried attacking here and there so he lost eventually but he didn't have to).





coL.Hendralisk: Similarly, long drawn out games where seemingly both sides aren't hard pressed to attack. Sort of like vs mech, I feel vs airtoss going SH is a solid response and it would be hard to deal with it otherwise. I don't really go SH enough myself to comment more on SHs.





Roccat_HyuN: I think they're fine.





CJ_Hydra: I don't think there is a problem.





SKT_soO: It's so hard to use Swarm Hosts in ZvP.





AX.Impact: Not really.



The locusts' range/movement speed off creep might be a bit too strong. But again, the Swarm Host is a necessity.There aren't really any other viable late game compositions for Zerg that can fight cost efficient in any way, especially off creep. High level Protoss players are very good at dealing damage and mass expanding vs Swarm Host, so I don't think there's a problem here necessarily. If Swarm Host were weakened you'd need to address a lot of other units at the same time though.There is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvP but there is definitely a counter play to it, so the approach should be different than in ZvZ. Very much the same as ZvT, Protoss has stronger late game army than Zerg with mass air (usually Tempest) and Templars but there is no reason why Protoss player should attack a Swarm Host Zerg that is simply sitting in his base. That doesn't work in his favour and he will gain more by sitting in his base himself which leads to terrible stalemates (Mana vs Firecake come up to mind, Mana tried attacking here and there so he lost eventually but he didn't have to).Similarly, long drawn out games where seemingly both sides aren't hard pressed to attack. Sort of like vs mech, I feel vs airtoss going SH is a solid response and it would be hard to deal with it otherwise. I don't really go SH enough myself to comment more on SHs.I think they're fine.I don't think there is a problem.It's so hard to use Swarm Hosts in ZvP.Not really.

Do you think that Zerg currently have an advantage in ZvT?



Liquid`Snute: Yes, on big maps. ZvT is very map dependant and the new maps are quite big and slightly Zerg favored.





Liquid`TLO: The maps are currently very good for Zerg, we went from extremely small maps with many chokes like Yeonsu and Heavy rain to mostly very big open wide maps, so naturally balance shifted towards Zerg. I'd like to see a bit more of a mixed map pool with small medium and big maps.





Acer.Nerchio: I don't think there is a problem in ZvT and even if there is, the advantage for Z is really small. I don't quite understand why Terrans don't use the typical bio mine composition that often anymore because it was really good in the past. I believe people follow patterns a little bit too much so if there is a Korean player in a big tournament that shows something else like bio mech then he changes the meta game for the next few months.





coL.Hendralisk: It feels that way on certain maps, when Zergs defend early harass without much problem and race up to a really high drone count and go into muta ling bane. With a critical mass of mutas, Terran have a hard time dealing with that. But Zerg needs a lot of mechanics to pull that off smoothly, so it's not like camping with infestor Brood Lord or something along those lines.





Roccat_HyuN: It feels like Zerg is a little bit better, but because Terrans keep trying a lot of new things it seems like things are evening out. For instance, starting mech and going into bio-mech, or opening bio and adding in mech units late. I think it would be alright to leave it as is for now and keep and eye on it.





CJ_Hydra: I think Zerg have a slight advantage.





SKT_soO: Zerg have a slight advantage.





AX.Impact: Most Terrans think that it's good for Zerg, but if you understand the game well there's actually nothing that's especially good for Zerg.



Yes, on big maps. ZvT is very map dependant and the new maps are quite big and slightly Zerg favored.The maps are currently very good for Zerg, we went from extremely small maps with many chokes like Yeonsu and Heavy rain to mostly very big open wide maps, so naturally balance shifted towards Zerg. I'd like to see a bit more of a mixed map pool with small medium and big maps.I don't think there is a problem in ZvT and even if there is, the advantage for Z is really small. I don't quite understand why Terrans don't use the typical bio mine composition that often anymore because it was really good in the past. I believe people follow patterns a little bit too much so if there is a Korean player in a big tournament that shows something else like bio mech then he changes the meta game for the next few months.It feels that way on certain maps, when Zergs defend early harass without much problem and race up to a really high drone count and go into muta ling bane. With a critical mass of mutas, Terran have a hard time dealing with that. But Zerg needs a lot of mechanics to pull that off smoothly, so it's not like camping with infestor Brood Lord or something along those lines.It feels like Zerg is a little bit better, but because Terrans keep trying a lot of new things it seems like things are evening out. For instance, starting mech and going into bio-mech, or opening bio and adding in mech units late. I think it would be alright to leave it as is for now and keep and eye on it.I think Zerg have a slight advantage.Zerg have a slight advantage.Most Terrans think that it's good for Zerg, but if you understand the game well there's actually nothing that's especially good for Zerg.

What do you think of Blizzard's proposed change to hellion/hellbats? Are there any other changes that you would like to see?



Liquid`Snute: It's okay don't have too many comments on this one.





Liquid`TLO: I think that could be fun, I'm a bit concerned there could be some too strong hellbat marine medivac timings, especially if Terran does only the slightest early game dmg and retains his hellions but so far the servos are completely useless so it's a good thing to try out in my opinion.





Acer.Nerchio: I think it won't affect almost anything in the game. There might be a few timings in ZvT that might be a little bit stronger like standard hellion opening followed up with 2 medivacs with marines but instead of 6 hellions you will have 6 hellbats.



I would like mothership core to be less relevant in the game because now it is main offensive and defensive unit for Protoss in all match ups along with the sentry and allows for too quick change between defensive and offensive stance. Especially in PvZ you can pressure with very small army that should be defending your base and not attacking and yet you cannot be punished for that.





coL.Hendralisk: It will help out Terrans some, though I am worried about the first push in tvz with medivacs will be a lot stronger. Not really too sure on what other changes atm, I usually like to see how things are after balance changes to judge from there.





Roccat_HyuN: I think it could become very tough for Zerg at the 2-medivac timing.





CJ_Hydra: It would be an alright patch. The other races wouldn't be able to go for greedy play so comfortably because of early-mid game rushes with hellions transformed into hellbats.





SKT_soO: I don't know exactly how it would turn out, but it would definitely help Terran in the match-up.





AX.Impact: I think we'll see a wide variety of strategies. If Terrans can use them well, there will be situations where Zerg will be at a disadvantage even if they stop an attack. Still, I'd have to play it out first to know for sure.

It's okaydon't have too many comments on this one.I think that could be fun, I'm a bit concerned there could be some too strong hellbat marine medivac timings, especially if Terran does only the slightest early game dmg and retains his hellions but so far the servos are completely useless so it's a good thing to try out in my opinion.I think it won't affect almost anything in the game. There might be a few timings in ZvT that might be a little bit stronger like standard hellion opening followed up with 2 medivacs with marines but instead of 6 hellions you will have 6 hellbats.I would like mothership core to be less relevant in the game because now it is main offensive and defensive unit for Protoss in all match ups along with the sentry and allows for too quick change between defensive and offensive stance. Especially in PvZ you can pressure with very small army that should be defending your base and not attacking and yet you cannot be punished for that.It will help out Terrans some, though I am worried about the first push in tvz with medivacs will be a lot stronger. Not really too sure on what other changes atm, I usually like to see how things are after balance changes to judge from there.I think it could become very tough for Zerg at the 2-medivac timing.It would be an alright patch. The other races wouldn't be able to go for greedy play so comfortably because of early-mid game rushes with hellions transformed into hellbats.I don't know exactly how it would turn out, but it would definitely help Terran in the match-up.I think we'll see a wide variety of strategies. If Terrans can use them well, there will be situations where Zerg will be at a disadvantage even if they stop an attack. Still, I'd have to play it out first to know for sure. Thanks to Stephano and a few highly visible Swarm Host stalemates, Blizzard is considering acting upon Heart of the Swarm's most controversial unit. At the same time, ZvT at the competitive level appears to be trending in Zerg's favor, which has caught Blizzard's attention as well. After putting forth some ideas, Blizzard finally released a balance test map on May 14th with the following changes:TeamLiquid asked Zerg pros from across all three WCS regions their thoughts on Blizzard's proposed changes.We talked to the playersthe release of the test map, butBlizzard had released their proposed changes.Maybe there's a Terran questionnaire coming soon.