Rep. Jeff Van Drew, the man at the center of a political storm in New Jersey state politics, has made more enemies than friends among the state’s overwhelmingly Democratic power hitters by switching parties. It was an announcement he made from the Oval Office sitting side by side with President Donald Trump. Now, Van Drew has granted Chief Political Correspondent Michael Aron an exclusive interview.

Aron: It’s been 11 days since you announced you were becoming a Republican. What’s been the reaction here in Southern New Jersey?

Van Drew: It’s been extraordinary, actually. I’ve been really pleased with how many people have been so positive. So, it’s a little bit tough if you go dining out on rare occasion and want to go to the local diner, or if you’re just going to go to a store or whatever because people have been so kind. Many people have come to me, Republicans and Democrats, and they’ve said, we are proud of you, we’re proud of the courage that you’ve showed, we’re proud of what you’ve done. And the reason, Michael, isn’t so much that everybody necessarily wanted me to become a Republican, it was also because people think that certain things aren’t right in the political process and they believe that I looked at that right in its face and made a decision to say it isn’t right and I’m going to do something about it.

Aron: Impeachment isn’t right?

Van Drew: Well, impeachment in this case isn’t right, but let me go back to, really, how this started. So, you know, I’m a believer and I have been for my whole life that sometimes there’s a sign. Something is there that shows you you should do something differently or that you should make a move. And so, I was speaking with, he asked to speak with me, the local chairman of the Republican Party in the county of Atlantic. Now, as you know, I have over 90 towns, and 8 counties, and about 40% of the state of New Jersey is in my district. It is the largest district and, again, has a lot of towns and you meet with a lot of folks. So, I’m always glad to do that, and I met with the chairman of Atlantic, the Democratic chairman of Atlantic…

Aron: Who is Michael Suleiman?

Van Drew: That is Michael, yes. And he said I just want to let you know something, and I said sure. And basically, he said that you’re going to vote for impeachment. And I said no, I’m not, I have my reasons and I believe they’re valid and we can speak about those in a moment, I said, but I appreciate your input, but no I’m not doing that. And his point was, well if you don’t do it you’re not going to get the line. And I think a lot of folks may or may not know what the line is, but it’s the part of the ballot that you get where you’re running with everybody that’s part of the mainstream group. And he says you’re not going to get the line, in fact I’m going to do everything I can to make sure that you can’t even run in Atlantic County, or don’t have any real opportunity. Let me say, I think I could have. I know a lot of people in Atlantic County and I have a lot of supporters. I might even have a few more supporters than Michael realizes and maybe than he has. But that isn’t the point. That was a real sign to me. I talked to him a little bit about it then…

Aron: He’s very young, right? Thirty years old?

Van Drew: Thirty-something years old, yes. Young guy…

Aron: And he said you can’t win a Democratic primary?

Van Drew: Well, he said that afterward. But he said I can’t run in a Democratic primary, I won’t have the right to run in the primary, or that he’ll do all he can, even though I’m an incumbent congressman, that I won’t get the line.

Aron: And that chased you out of the party?

Van Drew: No, that didn’t chase me out of the party. That was one piece of a number of issues over time that have chased me out of the party. So, let’s talk about impeachment a little bit. I think that’s what you want to speak about. Impeachment is serious business. In our history, as you know, its only happened three times. In our history, very bright men that loved America, like de Tocqueville, have spoke about how impeachment rarely should be use and never should be used because you don’t like a president. As you’ve heard, and we’ve all heard many times, high crimes, treason, those types of issues. So, the reality is, that we’ve never had an actual situation where there was an impeachment where the individual president was found guilty. And there is a reason for that because it is disenfranchising the voters. Whether you love the president or don’t like the president isn’t the issue here. The issue is that millions upon millions of people lose their vote if a president is impeached, and it must be for the very most serious reasons.

Aron: So, do you think that President Trump in his relation with the president of Ukraine and his withholding military aid and asking for an investigation of the Bidens was inappropriate but doesn’t rise to the level of impeachment?

Van Drew: Well, I would say a couple of things. It doesn’t rise to the level of impeachment, number one. Number two, he didn’t withhold the military aid. The military aid flowed. Number three, the investigation never took place. Impeachment can’t just be somebody wanted to do something, or we think they wanted to do something. You are physically taking the president of the Untied States and removing him from office. It damn well better be something really serious, and really important, and really bad. This does not rise up to it, and most people that you speak to, at least the people on the street and some scholars as well, think this is a very weak impeachment, which is I assume why they’re not actually transferring the papers. I don’t know if we’re going to go back and try and impeach a second time. Let me tell you the kind of conversations I’ve had where people have come up to me, I’ve had people come to me, including Congresspeople, and say he’s just an unpleasant person, we don’t like him, people don’t like him, he did some things here or there or everywhere, he needs to be impeached. That absolutely has nothing to do with impeachment and we should realize what impeachment is. It is a very cumbersome and very serious tool that is only to be used for very, very serious issues. We’re doing the wrong there here.

Aron: Congress is doing the wrong thing, or the House is doing the wrong thing. If Congress had decided to censure the president instead of impeach him, might you still be a Democrat?

Van Drew: I don’t know. You never can do ‘might have beens’, so I really can’t say. Life is an amazing thing, however that might have been more appropriate. If you disagree with something that a president does, you can censure him — any president — however this was not what they did, obviously. What they did was the impeachment route. It was interesting because in the beginning the speaker, Nancy Pelosi, absolutely said the impeachment should be bipartisan. A real impeachment, the thing that happened is so bad that obviously Republicans and Democrats are going to join together. This was a partisan impeachment. It was only on one side. She also said that it should be something this is rarely, if ever, used, and I’m paraphrasing a little bit…

Aron: She said the evidence has to be overwhelming.

Van Drew: Overwhelming, and this is not overwhelming evidence. It’s not an overwhelming issue, and it does so much harm. Look at what it does, and is doing, Michael, to our country. It’s splitting people apart. People are using hate language. Let me tell you a story. A lady comes up to me and she say, you know what, I want to say something about you. And I said what? She says, well I want to tell you that you’re not doing this right — and this was before I decided to make my move – she said you don’t have enough hate in your heart. And I looked at her, and she said you don’t hate the president enough, and you don’t hate Republicans enough. Michael, you have known me for years. I do have a habit of liking all people within normal reason. And we are now taking our country and we’re splitting it apart, and we’re fracturing it, and we’re actually creating situations where people hate and hurt each other for this reason.

Aron: You’re talking about people who speak ill of the president. Ten days ago, The Daily Beast published an article citing two unnamed Democratic individuals who said they were in a room with you when you called the president crazy and unfit.

Van Drew: I never used those words. I never said unfit, or undeserved, I absolutely did not. It’s not even my speech pattern.

Aron: “Unfit for office” was the phrase.

Van Drew: I never said that.

Aron: And Tom Moran, the columnist for The Star Ledger, who was highly critical of your party switch wrote that you told him back in November that your biggest political fear was seeing Trump reelected.

Van Drew: I don’t think I quite said that, that that was my biggest political fear.What I said was this whole process, many people’s fear, not mine obviously, is that he would be, this is what I was alluding to, that he could get elected again. So, there are individuals out there that are so afraid the president’s going to get reelected that they think they should use impeachment as a tool. That’s really what I was talking about.

Aron: You’re saying they’re impeaching him because they can?

Van Drew: They’re impeaching them because they can. They’re impeaching him because they’re afraid he may win reelection, but that’s not what impeachment’s for. They’re impeachment them because they don’t like him, maybe. They’re impeaching him because they disagree with his values, or think he did something before. Somebody said to me one time that one time he was in Atlantic City and he did x, y and z and that’s why he has to be impeached. That has nothing to do with impeachment. Michael, we must understand our history and our constitution. Impeachment never should be used unless it’s an extreme situation. And I’ll tell you what’s going to happen, and mark my word, and we’re both be there and we’ll see it and we’ll talk about it, what’s going to happen is someday the other party will be elected, and the Republicans will be in control, and there will be people within the Republican Party that are going to want to impeach, just in the reverse way, and I don’t think that that’s good either. Impeachment, I didn’t even like the Clinton impeachment, and he lied before Congress, but I still didn’t like it.

Aron: So, many Democrats in the state have been wildly critical of what you’ve done here.

Van Drew: That’s a surprise.

Aron: Gov. Murphy called it pathetic, Senate President Sweeney said Jeff is for Jeff and he called it a betrayal. What do you think when you read things like that?

Van Drew: I think people have rights to make decisions in their life, and to deal with their own lives, and their own politics, and their public policy in the way that they think it appropriate. I think what is pathetic and unfortunate, whenever people rely on calling people names or saying mean things about them. So, I’m going to surprise you here, but I don’t think so because you know me, I’m not going to say anything about them. I’m going to talk about the fact that I feel like I did the right thing, and I’ll let the voters decide. And if the voters decide to reelect me, then I will be a happy man and do my best. And I think they will. And from all the signs we’ve seen, they will. We just had two people right before you were here, from a very urban area, and we’re talking about some of the issues that are coming up, and both of them said to me, I just want to let you know, I don’t care if you’re a Republican or Democrat, I’m voting for you because you’re Jeff Van Drew. That’s always been my history. I never came to you in an interview and said vote for me because I’m a Democrat, vote for me because I’m a Republican. Vote for me because you think I have value, because I’m going to try to do the right thing, because I’m going to try to do good. One of the things I used to hate the most in the old days when I would go out and knock on doors, some people would say I’m not going to vote for you because you are a Democrat and I never vote for Democrats. That kind of hurt my feelings. But oddly enough what also hurt my feelings is when people would say I am going to vote for you because you are a Democrat. You don’t even have to talk to me and tell me what you think. You’re a Democrat, I’m voting for you.

Aron: You didn’t like that?

Van Drew: I didn’t like that either. Vote for or against because of who I am, what my policies are and how hard I’ve worked for you.

Aron: You’re joining a party full of climate deniers, starting from the top on down. How do you reconcile your environmental record with that of national Republicans who are rejecting the idea of climate change?

Van Drew: I was very clear to everyone when I spoke about the fact of changing that there would be some things that we disagree on, people should disagree, that’s a natural and normal thing. I believe that climate change is an issue. I believe that we should deal with the issue intelligently. I don’t believe in the Green New Deal because I think we can really hurt and destroy our economy. I think we can have a good economy, a good business climate, and deal with climate change and the issues…

Aron: With Trump in the White House we can deal with climate change?

Van Drew: I hope that we can, I hope that maybe I will influence him a little bit. I don’t know, but we’re going to find out. I think that that is the goal of any congressperson to listen to their constituents, to try to effect change, and to even work with a president to see what ideas you can agree on and work on together and what idea you may differ upon — that’s healthy and normal. But to say that all Republicans disagree with climate change is not true either. Even some of the major climate change bills have been sponsored by Republican congresspeople.

Aron: So the president said he would come to campaign for you. He even said maybe in January. You expect him in?

Van Drew: I would imagine that the president will be here sometime in January or February, yes.

Aron: You know that he will? I mean, they told you he will?

Van Drew: He will be here.

Aron: OK. And that will be good for your campaign? This district is pro-Trump, correct?

Van Drew: Well, let me explain something from the beginning. Any president that honors your district and your towns by coming to visit your towns as the president of the United States, it is an honor. Whether they are Republican or Democrat, whether you agree with them or not, it is an honor for our district, for our country district, our district that’s a little bit out of the way. We’re not right next to Manhattan and we’re not right next to all the big, powerful urban areas. I think it’s amazing that he’s coming here to support our people and to support me. And that doesn’t mean you don’t have to agree with everything that he does, but that does that you should be honored to have the president of the United States be here.

Aron: What kind of formal paperwork do you have to fill out in order to switch parties?

Van Drew: It’s pretty simple, really. It’s an amazing thing. So, all you have to do to switch parties, if you are registered in a party, so I was a registered Democrat and you fill out a form — it’s small, it’s about that big — and you just say that you’re now and Republican and you sign it.

Aron: And send it to the county clerk’s office?

Van Drew: Yes. If you are an undeclared person, which most people in elected office are not, but if you are undeclared, which means you haven’t declared a party, all you have to do is on primary day go in and say that I want to declare as a Republican or a Democrat.

Aron: Do you have to write a letter to Nancy Pelosi and to Kevin McCarthy saying I’ve switched parties?

Van Drew: Not that I know of and I still owe Nancy Pelosi a meeting, which I will do. And I did speak to the majority leader, the Democratic Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, and did tell him. And he was very much a gentleman. He said I don’t agree with what you’ve done, but I wish you luck.

Aron: Have you switched seats in the House of Representatives?

Van Drew: See, you know, in the House which is really interesting, we’re both so familiar with the state Senate where you sit in a particular spot with a nice name tag and that’s where you sit all the time. In the House you can sit anywhere you want to. So I always sat sort of toward the back because I always like to watch everything going on, and a lot of blue dogs would all sit sort of in a row in the back area where I was, as well. Sometimes I’d go over to be friendly and sit on the Republican side, sometimes Republicans who were friendly would come and sit on the Democratic side. There literally is an aisle, and you literally can cross the aisle.

Aron: So you’re crossing the aisle for good? You’re crossing the Rubicon, there’s no going back. Any second thoughts?

Van Drew: No. I really believe for a lot of reasons. May I tell you a couple quick stories.

Aron: Quick.

Van Drew: I’ll make them quick. So, I did a couple bills, and this was actually in the Legislature, and you may think they were trite or not important or not serious, but I did. And one of them was that anybody, at any time could place the American flag as long as it was done with honor and dignity and the way it should be done. And I have the picture somewhere around here when it was signed into law, oddly enough even here in New Jersey, and it was actually Gov. McGreevy who signed it into law, that the flag could be flown even in the condominium complex, even if the manager said you can’t do it. I did that bill, and around the same time I did a bill — it’s interesting based on case law — that said you can put “In God We Trust” anywhere on a public or private building. That’s law in New Jersey. People don’t realize it, but it’s law in New Jersey. From the Democratic Party I actually got, from a lot of Democrats and not all, there’s a lot of Democrats that don’t feel this way, but from a good number they said this was such trite, unimportant legislation, that it meant nothing, why was I wasting my time. The flag doesn’t really signify importance any more, “In God We Trust” is inappropriate, doesn’t signify any importance anymore. And I guess that was one of the times. You know you get these signs. I’m not saying it’s the only legislation that you do, I’m not even saying it’s the most important, but to me it is important. I believe in that flag, and I believe in God, and believe that this country is based on certain principles. And I always did. I did as a Democrat and there are Democrats that do, but I really got a hard time for that. I speak about American exceptionalism, how this is an exceptional nation like none other in the world and I would be criticized.