Arguing their cases, both cited a Trump interview with Hugh Hewitt that was also quoted by many of the journalists whose work they are critiquing. A transcript of the surreal exchange makes plain the reason for divergent interpretations of Trump’s words:

Hugh Hewitt: Last night, you said the President was the founder of ISIS. I know what you meant. You meant that he created the vacuum, he lost the peace.

Donald Trump: No, I meant he’s the founder of ISIS. I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton.

Hewitt: But he’s not sympathetic to them. He hates them. He’s trying to kill them.

Trump: I don’t care. He was the founder. His, the way he got out of Iraq was that that was the founding of ISIS, okay?

Hewitt: Well, that, you know, I have a saying, Donald Trump, the mnemonic device I use is Every Liberal Really Seems So, So Sad. E is for Egypt, L is for Libya, S is for Syria, R is for Russia reset. They screwed everything up. You don’t get any argument from me. But by using the term founder, they’re hitting with you on this again. Mistake?

Trump: No, it’s no mistake. Everyone’s liking it. I think they’re liking it. I give him the most valuable player award. And I give it to him, and I give it to, I gave the co-founder to Hillary. I don’t know if you heard that.

Hewitt: I did. I did. I played it.

Trump: I gave her the co-founder.

Hewitt: I know what you’re arguing…

Trump: You’re not, and let me ask you, do you not like that?

Hewitt: I don’t. I think I would say they created, they lost the peace. They created the Libyan vacuum, they created the vacuum into which ISIS came, but they didn’t create ISIS. That’s what I would say.

Trump: Well, I disagree.

Hewitt: All right, that’s okay.

Trump: I mean, with his bad policies, that’s why ISIS came about.

Hewitt: That’s…

Trump: If he would have done things properly, you wouldn’t have had ISIS.

Hewitt: That’s true.

Trump: Therefore, he was the founder of ISIS.

Hewitt: And that’s, I’d just use different language to communicate it, but let me close with this, because I know I’m keeping you long, and Hope’s going to kill me.

Trump: But they wouldn’t talk about your language, and they do talk about my language, right?

Hewitt: Well, good point. Good point.