LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Has the Australian Workers Union been destroying or concealing documents relating to a Federal Police investigation?

That's the suspicion of the Registered Organisations Commission. It's investigating a number of donations made by the Australian Workers Union between 2006 and 2008, including to the first political campaign of the man who's now the Opposition Leader, Bill Shorten.

Labor and the AWU claim the police raids of the union headquarters late today are political. An allegation the Government says is absurd and false.

With me now from Melbourne is the nation's top union official, the ACTU secretary, Sally McManus. Thank you very much for coming in, Sally McManus.

What is your reaction to these raids this afternoon?

SALLY MCMANUS, ACTU SECRETARY: Well, actually I have just been down at the Melbourne AWU office and I have been in there and I have seen about 15 police officers, Federal Police officers sitting around not doing much.

My reaction is this - this is an outrageous abuse of power. It is an attack on democracy and it is massive overreach.

We should be very concerned in this country where a government goes about directing their police to raid union offices.

LEIGH SALES: What evidence do you have that the Government has directed police to do a raid?

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, you know, the first people to find out about this appear to be the media who were all there beforehand.

They found out before the union found out. So someone has told them.

It is either their organisation, the Registered Organisations Commission, or it is Michaelia Cash herself.

LEIGH SALES: How confident are you that there has been no law breaking by the AWU?

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, I'll tell you, the Australian people this. They will find out that this is a total and utter waste of their money, a waste of their money.

This is, I am totally confident that there is nothing to be concerned about.

Remember this, this is a donation to GetUp that they are raiding officers to investigate. It is ridiculous and the Australian people will find out that very soon.

LEIGH SALES: So, just, if we can go through some of the details. The AWU paid $100,000 to GetUp in 2006. Can you guarantee that that donation went through all the rules of the AWU?

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, as I said, this will all come out and it will all be there for people to see. It is really up to the AWU with that.

I know the Federal Police are down there looking for all those documents to find out.

If they had of just asked the AWU for that evidence they would have got it, but they didn't, did they?

LEIGH SALES: That is a pretty clear question I've asked. Did that donation go through the rules of the AWU?

SALLY MCMANUS: I am not the AWU, I can't tell you whether that's case for sure but I can tell you, I am pretty certain that you will find out that everything is totally above board.

LEIGH SALES: Have you, as head of the ACTU, which is the peak union group, asked the AWU that direct question that I just asked you?

SALLY MCMANUS: Look, the AWU are not concerned one little bit. They believe that absolutely everything is totally above board.

LEIGH SALES: But that is not what I asked. I asked if you, as the head of the ACTU, has asked the AWU that direct question I just asked you?

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, of course I discussed it them. I was sitting in the office while the police were raiding their offices and they were not concerned about it.

What they are concerned about is the fact that they have got police officers crawling through a union office over a donation to GetUp.

At the same time we have got the Commonwealth Bank that has been involved in money laundering, has been involved in supporting drug traffickers and been supporting terrorist organisations - you don't see the Federal Police knocking on their door, do you?

LEIGH SALES: Well, the Federal Police can walk and chew gum at the same time. I am sure they are investigating lots of different things.

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, the problem is they can't and the reason why - it came out in Parliament today that they have had 117 of their officers cut and that means that they are unable to investigate drug trafficking, which is a really serious issue.

At the same time, we've got at least 30-35 officers in union offices investigating a GetUp donation.

I put it to you that that is an outrageous use of our money.

LEIGH SALES: That is not the only donation. There was another donation, the AWU paid $25,000 to Bill Shorten's election campaign for the seat of Maribyrnong in 2007/2008. Again, did that get approval, are you aware, by the national executive of the AWU? Did it go through the proper processes?

SALLY MCMANUS: Again, that is a matter for the AWU but I say this, what is wrong with workers deciding they want to donate money to a political campaign because they think it is in their interest?

What is wrong with that? That is called democracy.

LEIGH SALES: Well, nothing is wrong with it as long as it went through the proper process and the people who gave the money to the union are aware that that is what their money was going to be used for which is what this investigation goes too.

SALLY MCMANUS: I am entirely confident that everything is fine and the Australian people will find out this and everyone should be angry about the fact that resources have been used to raid union offices.

LEIGH SALES: You say there is nothing to be concerned about, that you are confident everything is okay. You have previously said on this program that you don't have a problem with breaking the law when you think that the law is unjust.

So how can we trust your word that the law was upheld in this situation given your flexible view in relation to obeying the law?

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, Leigh, I was talking about industrial action when you and I had that discussion, that's what I was talking about. I was talking about the fact that in our country our industrial laws are out of step with the rest of the world. Out of step with ILO (International Labour Organisation) standards.

The fact that It is so hard for people in our country to withdraw their labour, as a last option, is part of the reason why we have record low wage growth.

LEIGH SALES: The context for that discussion that we were having, which you correctly point out, was that. I was asking about the CFMEU and whether the ACTU should distance itself from that union given its history of lawbreaking.

The former prime minister, Bob Hawke, says that the CFMEU's behaviour is appalling and that he wouldn't tolerate it and that the ACTU should throw it out.

How much respect do you have for Bob Hawke's opinion?

SALLY MCMANUS: Well, I'll say when Bob Hawke was at the ACTU doing the type of job I am doing now, union membership was 53 per cent. Our laws were also very different to the what they are now.

So for example, if the CFMEU had of taken industrial action under Bob Hawke's time, they would not be fined the outrageous amounts of money that they are now.

LEIGH SALES: But nonetheless he was talking about their behaviour today.

SALLY MCMANUS: It used to be a normal thing and that is why we had better equality in Australia is because working people had enough power.

LEIGH SALES: But Bob Hawke is aware of the context of what the laws are today and the CFMEU's behaviour and he says that behaviour is intolerable. A federal judge just last week has called it, the CFMEU, the most recidivist corporate offender in Australian history with a pattern of lawbreaking that is astounding.

SALLY MCMANUS: Again, I don't think Bob Hawke actually does understand that the world has changed and our laws have changed.

Remember CFMEU were fined nearly $2 million for a one-day stoppage a couple of weeks ago and this is one of the cases you are talking about.

At the same time when companies kill workers they are fined $300,000. Now I just think that is outrageous.

If working people can't withdraw their labour where they need to, as a last resort, well we are in a situation where we are not as free as we should be and that is why we have record low wage growth.

LEIGH SALES: Sally McManus, thank you very much for joining us this evening.

SALLY MCMANUS: No problem.