Q: It’s interesting you say that about being “the little guy” because there’s this quote from Felipe Szpigel, who runs Anheuser-Busch’s craft portfolio, that made it into Chapter 30 of the book, where he very directly refutes that notion: “The concept of big versus small in craft is both old and unrealistic. There have never been so many beer options available to consumers, and that’s great. Consumers, just like retailers and wholesalers, have options. From our perspective, our focus is on celebrating, and amplifying, the beers, brands and cultures we have in our craft portfolio to provide great options to enjoy. We welcome all the brewers and cider makers that are focused on consumers and sharing amazing beers, ciders and experiences, as we are.” What do you make of that — the idea that there’s no such thing as big and small craft breweries competing anymore?

A: It shows me how scary good they are at bending the truth and blurring reality. A lot of what Felipe says, especially the second half of that statement, is a shared sentiment with small, independent craft brewers. But the story and reality of big versus small is alive and well, and will be forever. As a giant, ABI has the financial resources, the scales of economies, the vertical integration of ingredients, and the deepest of distribution networks that no small brewer will ever have. With those advantages, ABI has the ability to undercut every player in craft beer at a moment’s notice — and they do! They do this in every market, on the shelves and in bars. Their focus behind scenes is on choking out the beers, brands, and cultures of craft brewers — not celebrating and amplifying them.

Q: Are those feelings about Anheuser-Busch the reason you left Elysian after the sale? Why not stay and work with all those newly-available resources?

A: I was already pretty much working toward starting my own thing and everyone at Elysian knew; I told Dick I’d done everything I wanted to do there and if I didn’t try to open my own place then, I might never do it. After the sale happened, I tried to reach my capital goal to get out of there as quickly as possible. I stayed for five months while getting this brewery off the ground and saw just how inflexible they made things. I’m a creative brewer who never needed approval for anything and suddenly I needed six signatures to get something done. They came in and said, “We’re not buying the equipment here or the beers — we’re buying you as people.” It just came off so bad. It was like, “We weren’t for sale; the brewery was for sale.” It started off so rocky.

Q: And while you were still there, the infamous “pumpkin peach” commercial happened, while watching with a bunch of Elysian folks at your house?

A: You could hear a pin drop after that commercial. Dick had to leave the room for a while. The rug had already been pulled out and this was rubbing our faces in the dirt after that. What they later told Elysian was that pumpkin-peach was a crazy combination they never thought anyone would actually do. If that’s true, then no due diligence was done. That commercial was so ill conceived and tone deaf.

Q: What does it feel like to see beers you created, such as Space Dust, becoming a national play for Anheuser-Busch and now even made by Anheuser-Busch itself as the company becomes a dominant force in American craft beer?

A: It’s a double edged sword. Most of the capital I raised to start Cloudburst came from people who were like, “You made Space Dust and Dayglow? I love those beers!” It would have been a lot harder to raise the money if those beers hadn’t done so well. At the same time you feel like a pawn; they were attractive to be bought by ABI, and then they blew them up. I’ve had Space Dust made by Anheuser-Busch and I think it tastes nothing like Space Dust from the early days. That’s why I still make a Space Dust clone every year, so people in Seattle can remind themselves of what it once tasted like. Now I have friends on the East Coast who are like, “I’m drinking Space Dust! I can get your beer out here!” I’m like, “Why? Don’t do that. You could be drinking something from someone small and local instead.” It will forever have mixed feelings for me.

Q: Anheuser-Busch has tried to position itself as a vanguard of all craft beer, and made the argument that if it does well in craft beer, everyone else will, too. Do you see any value in that argument?

A: No, I don’t at all. Then why are your distributors undercutting pricing in local markets? I think they’re trying to be this wolf in sheep’s clothing, hoping people stop paying attention to where their beer comes from and what the intentions are behind breweries. One thing we pride ourselves on is that you know our intentions. We don’t have crazy aspirations to keep growing and take over local markets; I think transparency as craft beer grows is going to be more and more important. I don’t buy the rising-tide-lifts-all-boats thing. We’re all friends with bar owners who are offered two-for-one kegs from AB or Seahawks tickets or whatever. They’re not changing anything for the better.

Q: Most important — what’s the future for the T-shirt?

A: It certainly got more of a response than I thought it was going to; we ended up winning a medal at the Fresh Hop Festival right after GABF and the guy on stage was like, “Why aren’t you wearing the shirt?!” I told him I can’t wear it to every festival. I won’t be wearing it on stage at GABF next year, either. It’s kind of a one-and-done. But that doesn’t mean I won’t buy a bunch more iron-on letters and make more of them for friends.