Bishnu Ghost Profile Blog Joined April 2011 34 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-17 17:04:02 #1 Introduction:



Hi Starcraft Fans! I am a masters Terran who struggled a lot with TvP the past month and began to use Warden's 1-1-1 Deathball which produced moderate success but lacked the ability to simply macro efficiently and then move out and attack without great concern for army positioning. I also believe there are some strong counter's to Warden's build as any build may have but I have had much more success using a modified build order from



EDIT - July 16th: Lots of revision to this guide. BO altered slightly and better replay and commentary added.



Overview:

+ Show Spoiler + This build revolves around strong scouting in the early game and a defensive position. As mid game approches harass capabilities are available as well as oppurtunities to alter your composition as you gain more intel on your opponent's tech path.



You will open with the OC standard followed by a factory and a CC. Using 1 tank and a bunker of marines you can hold all early pokes and upon scouting, 4-gates as well. By this time you will also be getting a Starport which will either produce a raven or a viking based in further intel.



As your SP is in production an armory is thrown down to get a thor and the second starport unit is often a banshee. This allows you to take your natural as the thor gives you great stability on defense and the banshee allows you to harass their base often pulling their army back.



Once the natural is secured 3 bunkers are used for the marines you have made but now marine production stops. This is an extremely defensive position and is difficult for toss to break and in fact they will often decide to take a 3rd. Which is fine because you will be pushing around 130 food and their 3rd won't kick in yet. If they go extremely fast 3rd you can just pull scvs to repair thors and stomp them.



After you open 1-1-1 and have 10-12 marines, 1 tank, 1 thor, 1 banshee, 1 raven you have to decide what tech they are going for.



If you see 6 gate add a 2nd factory and make BF hellions to deal with the zealots. stomp their timing attack and move out while taking a third and add rax with extra minerals if you have them.



If you see 4-5 gate with robo for immortals - make a 2nd starport with techlab and add ravens and banshees. push timing is around 3 ghosts and 3 pdd. take a third after you trade army.



If you see 3-4 gates and 2 robos pumping colossi add a 2nd starport and produce banshees and ravens. phoenix will not counter because of thors. ravens will stop stalkers from tearing up banshees.



If you see fast HT, likely after a DT expand. Add 2nd rax make ghosts with upgrades and "EMP cleanse" before you move out.



Either your dumping gas for ghosts to negate templar or banshees/ravens to crush colossi and immortals.



EMP Cleanse - use ghosts to emp thors and banshees to negate feedback.



Why this build works: its versatile, the unit comp is hard to scout with thors and ravens out. SP with tech lab can make either ravens banshees or vikings so all toss units can be countered. the emp cleanse negates HT feedback. ghost emp negates HT with energy for storms. raven pdd negates stalkers and phoenix. thors and strong and can tank a lot of damage.



Also consider this. 3-4 PDDs shuts down a significant portion of the Toss DPS for the first 1/4 of the battle. Once PDD energy is done the supply lead will have already shifted heavily in Terran's favour. The polt prime build which uses an early 1 base push of marine tanks raven and banshee was effective until toss realized feedback could wreck this with many zealots. We are utilizing the same composition but removing feedback from the equation.







Build Order:

+ Show Spoiler +

15 orbital

16 depot

18 factory

20 TL on rax (after 3 marines)

21 depot, bunker and 2nd refinery

27 tank after swapping factory onto TL

29 depot

31 starport on to TL factory lifts off and makes hellion

37 CC

39 raven

40 depot

41 armory



Use your hellion to determine if its safe to move out to expand. Make a banshee for map control, scouting and lastly harass. Make a thor to strengthen your army.



Use scouting to determine whether toss is going for mass gateway with ups, templar, or robo tech.



mass gateways - add BF hellion to increase supply faster, put depots in front of bunkers to stop zealots be ready to pull scv to repair



robo tech - add a 2nd starport and make banshees and ravens maybe a viking or two if gas is tight. add 1-2 ghosts wihtout upgrades just for normal emp usage



templar tech - add a 2nd rax for ghosts - extra banshees and ravens are secondary. use ghosts to emp cleanse your thors and banshees.



This is a safe opening to all cheese and allows you to have the full tech tree as you take your natural. This allows extreme versatility in unit comp but gives up mobility for some time. However, because of the strong defensive position toss must allow you to get whatever unit comp you want because you are unlikely to be broken. You can move out around 130 food before they have a saturated 3rd base.









Engaging the Protoss Ball

+ Show Spoiler +



You must emp cleanse before moving out if any HT are out because feedback is only 50 energy and can destroy the thors who have build up energy while defending.



PDD is 1st priority as 2 ravens can get sniped easily by HT or stalkers. this will allow the banshees to live much longer.



EMP is 2nd priority as ghosts do not have the highest threat and can wait 1-2 seconds before emp the HT in the back.











Replays

+ Show Spoiler +



This is the one to watch, Opponent goes 2 gate robo expand into 4 gate robo with templar tech. EMP cleansing negates his plans to stomp my army and instead leaves him with nothing as thors and banshees rip through the rest of his base.







Toss goes 2 gate robo and after scouting CBing immortals added another starport with TL to make more ravens and banshees. pushed with 130 supply and got further and further ahead taking a third and adding more ghosts to "EMP Cleanse" the thors and banshees before final push.





macro game against rank 5 masters toss



This is the one to watch, Opponent goes 2 gate robo expand into 4 gate robo with templar tech. EMP cleansing negates his plans to stomp my army and instead leaves him with nothing as thors and banshees rip through the rest of his base.Toss goes 2 gate robo and after scouting CBing immortals added another starport with TL to make more ravens and banshees. pushed with 130 supply and got further and further ahead taking a third and adding more ghosts to "EMP Cleanse" the thors and banshees before final push.macro game against rank 5 masters toss



Live Commentary VOD + replay

+ Show Spoiler +













Final Thoughts:



Please leave feedback in this thread. Add me on bnet if you want to try out your toss builds against me. Also please check out my stream and youtube channel where I will show more of this build and others for tvt and tvz.



Bnet ID



MarineKush.763 - ladder locked into diamond its a new account



Kushy.756 - masters account



Website: http://www.marinekush.com

Stream : justin.tv/marinekush

Youtube: youtube.com/marinekush



Thanks!



MK



Hi Starcraft Fans! I am a masters Terran who struggled a lot with TvP the past month and began to use Warden's 1-1-1 Deathball which produced moderate success but lacked the ability to simply macro efficiently and then move out and attack without great concern for army positioning. I also believe there are some strong counter's to Warden's build as any build may have but I have had much more success using a modified build order from Thorzain vs MC TSL Game 5 and Warden's 1-1-1 very safe opening and scouting mechanics. So I give a lot of credit to those two.Lots of revision to this guide. BO altered slightly and better replay and commentary added.Please leave feedback in this thread. Add me on bnet if you want to try out your toss builds against me. Also please check out my stream and youtube channel where I will show more of this build and others for tvt and tvz.- ladder locked into diamond its a new account- masters accountThanks!MK

Warp Profile Joined August 2010 United States 166 Posts #2 I'm protoss. I HATE YOU. :O



EMPing the thors and banshees is holy shit smart. Gratz on the strategy.



I would like to add that you should incorporate nukes into the build as well.. if you watched the series between MC and Puma (I think?? I've watched so many games I don't remember) but Puma used great defensive and offensive nukes to force the protoss into horrible positions. "nothing supscious going on here" - Camille Cavour aka Chris Loranger aka HuK the beast

micjmac Profile Joined September 2010 42 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-16 02:40:31 #3 Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.

KiLL_ORdeR Profile Blog Joined June 2009 United States 1483 Posts #4 On July 16 2011 11:40 micjmac wrote:

Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.



Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy. Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy. In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy

micjmac Profile Joined September 2010 42 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-16 03:04:03 #5 nvm

Espy Profile Joined March 2011 Australia 26 Posts #6 This type of unit composition works perfectly against any Protoss deathball but however has really slow to no mobility besides the Hellions so like all mech plays, if the protoss uses warp prism or drop play, it may be a bit annoying. I've used this build to huge success on my laddering in Diamond and low masters, HOWEVER, I realised theres one type of build that absolutely destroys this. Any 1 gate expo is hard to punish unless you all in and do significant damage, because if Protoss 1 gate expos and gets those immortals out successfully, he can 6 gate push with immortals and your own "deathball" is reliant on a few bunkers and only 2-3 or so Thors because of the timing of the push. You MAY be able to squeeze that one ghost out but this type of push is DEADLY to this build.

whoopingchow Profile Joined June 2011 United States 293 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-16 03:32:26 #7 Would your Thor be out before the Protoss is able to get phoenixes to harass? Other than the early game weaknesses you've mentioned above, this build sounds pretty impossible to counter...will definitely need to try it out sometime and watch your replays. Thanks for the post!



*edit* Didn't realize you'd have that many marines out. Redacted! ^^

benthekid Profile Joined March 2011 United States 132 Posts #8 This is brilliant!!!! Thors are so good late game vs toss and with vikings/banshees to keep them for being able to kite this comp/build is a much more solid option and much more mobile than wardens build!



Wait till Trump here's about this build!

"Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA (back in WoL) (Funny how it's still true)

drcatellino Profile Blog Joined April 2010 Canada 346 Posts #9 What I like about this is that you use everything that is awesome yet underused against Toss in a single build (PDD, EMPS, Thor with armor, hellions to deal with zealot/sentry/ht, etc).



I am working on a build that use a similar opening but has completely different follow up. I prefer to use tanks instead of thors... would you say thors are used in part to counter possible phoenix play ? quote unquote

benthekid Profile Joined March 2011 United States 132 Posts #10 Few possible edits to the build order



15 orbital

*16 depot*

18 fact

21 TL on rax (after 3 marines)

22 depot, bunker and 2nd refinary

23 fact goes on TL – make one tank

27 CC

29 starport on to TL factory lifts off and makes hellion

33 raven and armory *and depot*

(in the 1st youtube video you didn't make the raven armory and depot until 35 supply but this might be an isolated case)

37 TL on fact

38 thor and banshee

(in that same video you made the 2 bunkers before the thor and banshee thor was at 40 supply and banshee at 42)



this is quite a complicated but very well timed out build!!! "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA (back in WoL) (Funny how it's still true)

SKTerran.117 Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 625 Posts #11 it sounds like he could just take another base quickly and just kill you



I don't see how you can punish a fast 3rd on a larger map also plaguuu 810

Bishnu Ghost Profile Blog Joined April 2011 34 Posts #12 If you have high minerals then add marines. it wont affect the build whatsoever because they require zero gas. its not easy to add factories if your macro slips because gas is rarely piling up.



the 4 gate is not a great replay but 2 bunkers with a tank and a thor on the way will be enough.



3 gate robo is a good example of poor scrambling. that defense could have been better. and another replay is in order.



1gate expo can normally be scouted. if so make a factory and two more rax, then a armory and push with thor with 12 scv or make your CC before fact. really not that hard to alter the 1-1-1 and if you see 1 gate expo much easier to build CC in the natural and make 4 bunkers if you scout the 6gate.



With MC claiming "penix imba" it is good to have a build which has thors in it. turrets are not good enough because they just do shield damage on single targets. thor is much scarier for stargate openings.



The build order is not perfect because this build requires harass and a lot of building swapping which causes macro to always be different. I think the rough order is there.



I think of the general BO using pairs



marines and a tank

CC and a bunker

raven and armory

banshee and thor

expo and 3 bunkers

2nd fact and GA

upgrades and harass





Liquid`Jinro Profile Blog Joined September 2002 Sweden 33702 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-16 08:54:13 #13 On July 16 2011 11:50 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 16 2011 11:40 micjmac wrote:

Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.



Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy. Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy.

If someone opens banshee that high % and you dont just blindly go phoenix, it seems pretty stupid =.=



Puts the banshee player SO far behind.



Anyway - composition looks like it has merit, but Im not a fan of the opening, its just not effecient at all. Id prefer to transition into it off something else, not sure what atm but will think about it.



It also looks to me like you should never be able to hold dedicated void ray allins (for an example, you can look at nada vs inca from last GSL, on xelnaga, where nada tries to use thorzains build - its quite close, but Im not sure if its holdable all the same). If someone opens banshee that high % and you dont just blindly go phoenix, it seems pretty stupid =.=Puts the banshee player SO far behind.Anyway - composition looks like it has merit, but Im not a fan of the opening, its just not effecient at all. Id prefer to transition into it off something else, not sure what atm but will think about it.It also looks to me like you should never be able to hold dedicated void ray allins (for an example, you can look at nada vs inca from last GSL, on xelnaga, where nada tries to use thorzains build - its quite close, but Im not sure if its holdable all the same). Moderator tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter

Bishnu Ghost Profile Blog Joined April 2011 34 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-16 09:23:36 #14 I agree that a dedicated VR allin is going to be tough and must be scouted asap.



the hellion can scout the front at the very least and either:



A. see the unit comp most likely to be accompanying a void ray.

B. get in the base and see a starport or 3 gates with 2 gas pumping early (from scv) and no expo. I don't think too many protoss moving out with a 3 gate sentry expand.



On close air pos. (metal and shattered) or just anytime you feel uneasy about VR just add in an ebay earlier and cut a few scv or get a viking first. If they are all-in with VR then you can happily cut scv as you have a 2nd CC coming. IN FACT. you can always delay the raven for a viking and just completely wall off and deal with a DT that way.



When ever i don't scout an expo at 6min and two gas up at 3:45 i assume VR or DT and the chrono can often determine which. This is a defensive build in the first 10 mins and all focus should be on scouting and ready to pull scv for repair.



Lets face it the VR allin is hard to hold without a bunker, a viking, and stim. thats why it's a powerful cheese.



Zowon Profile Joined December 2010 Norway 237 Posts #15 On July 16 2011 11:50 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 16 2011 11:40 micjmac wrote:

Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.



Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy. Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy.



Happy does not open banshee every game..He scouts with hellion, and if he scouts stargate, he will not make banshees. Phoenix hard counter banshees. Also, Happy seems to get behind if the protoss goes for 1gate fe, with fast robo for a couple of observers. Happy does not open banshee every game..He scouts with hellion, and if he scouts stargate, he will not make banshees. Phoenix hard counter banshees. Also, Happy seems to get behind if the protoss goes for 1gate fe, with fast robo for a couple of observers. ¯\(シ)/¯

benthekid Profile Joined March 2011 United States 132 Posts #16 I opened banshees once against toss and scouted a stargate with the banshee. I still had time to make a viking and had a tank some marines and was able to hold while getting a bunch of probe kills but that was gold league so...If this build catches on it needs a name!!!

"Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA (back in WoL) (Funny how it's still true)

FryktSkyene Profile Joined December 2010 United States 1173 Posts #17 So...is it like a two base all in or can you play macro if they attack fails

(Since you pull so many scvs [From the youtube video]) Snitches get stiches

Norseman Profile Joined May 2010 United States 223 Posts #18 Watching the replay it looked like most of the time he pulled SCVs they were A.) unnecessary and B.) had no impact on the outcome of the battle. I would say just never pull the SCVs and even if you lose you're still in good shape to keep going.



I'm not counting the 6-8 he takes with the initial attack of course, and I don't feel those would hurt econ too badly.

Become a better player: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=246138

Bishnu Ghost Profile Blog Joined April 2011 34 Posts #19 I think the map will determine whether you go for a 2 base timing of take a faster third. It depends how easy it is to defend a third with this composition. If you do go for a non all-in then power up more factories and some rax as well to add marauders and more ghosts.

Coriolis Profile Blog Joined September 2010 United States 1152 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-16 19:10:02 #20 Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft

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