pochowek:

Im thinking about a stealth overhaul for skyrim/fallout 4 but im not sure. i cant write scripts. i just know how id wanna do it

hoh this post turned out longer than i thought it would be

big problems when regarding stealth in skyrim/fallout 4/so on:

the maps are not built to encourage stealth, and the lighting in those maps is not set around to strategically distribute light and shadow. i assume this isnt that much of a bethesda specific problem because barely any (especially open world) game nowadays is built with level design in mind, but that also means that bethesda could learn something from other game developers that make video games with stealth elements and no deep shadow mechanics put on maps that are just that, maps, big open spaces with trees, bushes and 10 premade buildings (think far cry series)



speaking of shadows, crouching in the absolute shadows wont give you the almost absolute protection that most stealth games would. most of the time whenever i sneak around in a bethesda game i forget that im supposed to stick to the shadows, instead going for the good ol line of sight break, maybe because how insignificant the game makes that out to be, despite oblivion loading screens telling me that everything matters from light levels through sneaking skill to fucking whether im wearing shoes or heavy armor. give me that on a percentage then. give me a stealth index. and make it matter

the sneak skill dependency makes it so theres a tiny sliver of gameplay at around the levels 5-10 in which stealth is actually enjoyable, everything before it is too hard and not enjoyable at all as you get spotted and constantly forced into playing a warrior for the first bit of the game and everything after it is just godmodding. for a balanced experience any existence of a sneak skill should enhance the way you sneak, not make it easier for you to stay hidden, or at least not THAT much. an experienced thief or assassin might crouch-sneak quicker and quieter but should in no circumstance be better than anyone else at crouching in a spot and doing nothing

a very unforgiving system of “enemy doesnt know youre there -> knows somethings up -> spots you and goes ham” combined with no clues as to how to stay out of peoples sights. other video games with stealth systems (especially those that arent full on hardcore stealth with their level design, like again the aforementioned far cry series) do it the ubisoft way, in which youre notified that a character is about to spot you and where they are so you can break your line of sight accordingly, like so.

i dont think that system is perfect, but it works better than trying to do it how fucking old hardcore stealth games did it WHEN you’re making a game with optional stealth elements (which skyrim is) and not a real hardcore stealth game (which skyrim is not). imo much more superior to the system skyrim and oblivion employs

the bethesda system saw use in older splinter cell games like chaos theory, but it was further explored there with level and lighting design that encouraged letting you hurry back into almost pitch black darkness in case you grabbed someones attention, furthermore, splinter cell pandora tomorrow had the “wait.. whats that” moments properly telegraphed via the enemy stopping dead in their tracks for 2 seconds AND really good sound design to let you know somethings up, from harrowing music to a VERY distinct and evil sounding piano chord smacked right when they spotted you out the corner of their eye.

(i couldve linked an example from chaos theory but it had an INCREDIBLY modular soundtrack that switched and pulsated and hushed one part and brought up other whenever something happened and the official soundtrack has these parts orchestrated to sound as song-y as possible so i couldnt do that)

you dont get that in skyrim! your “get back get back” cue is “who’s there!” while the enemy marches at right where he spotted you with, according to the uesp wiki, heightened perception, which does make sense but it further makes the shadow system absolute nonsense.

the challenging combat of dark souls is fun because you can master the exact times of enemies attacks and how to dodge and counter them. the challenging stealth of skyrim isnt fun because the enemies’ actions arent clear and predictable enough to know how to control them and you dont get to even learn that anyway because youre gonna be a godlike stealth archer by level 15. its challenging BUT predictable in other games with good stealth elements, because you get feedback

this is feedback. its the light meter from splinter cell: chaos theory. the splinter cell series are praised for a linear and not binary (seen vs not seen) light system, but its kind of in the middle really. there’s four levels of being seen. thats already helpful! why couldnt we get this in skyrim? we already got health, mana and stamina bars. was this one a victim of minimalistic UI design? who knows. makes no sense though, still. its like not acknowledging magic players and just not putting the mana bar in there cause you’ll know when youre out of mana when you’re out of it.

all this and youre probably here like, “but pocho, skyrim isnt a stealth game!”. sure, maybe it isnt, but it puts an emphasis on letting you be a stealth player. an equal emphasis as on close quarters combat and using magic. its not just a throwaway skill, like in fable (why the hell was sneaking in that game anyway?). its a part of the gameplay. thats why, bear with me, i also feel like level design should revolve around stealth. “but pocho, skyrim isnt a stealth game!!!!!” you might yell again like a broken record, and yes! that might sound ridiculous! why cant we design levels equally around combat, magic and stealth? do i expect too much?

the thing is, skyrim combat doesnt require specialized level design. stealth does.

look at this screenshot from a styx 2, a hardcore stealth game, which also looks like its literally fucking morrowind. dark shadows? yeah. things to hide behind and under? definitely. i played through this and it was a real smart done level stealth wise.

heres how to optimize this level for combat

look at this skyrim level! apparently it’s fan made, from a mod called Ogmund’s Tomb.

shadow to hide behind casting from the pillar and a sharp light to stay away from. perfect. i could sneak around this one. it looks fun! here’s this level optimized for combat



another screenshot from Ogmund’s Tomb!

god this gift keeps on giving. i can see going into third person and waiting behind the shadow of the pillar and wait until the enemy turns around so i can either sneak by or stab them in the back. how to optimize this one for combat?

you guessed it!

now look at this vanilla skyrim dungeon, with someone being halfway through being spotted by a bullshit detection system

is it optimized for combat? can you run up to the enemy, prompt them to yell “I’LL KILL YOU MOTHERFUCKER”, duke it out in the middle, kill them and loot their body? oh yeah of course. thats what the level looks like its made for

how to optimize it for stealth?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk. todd howard if you see this post hire the guys behind styx

∞ 11:01 am, 222 notki