Grijzeham Profile Blog Joined July 2010 United Kingdom 50 Posts Last Edited: 2011-06-10 12:31:35 #1



So I was a happy Zerg player running around with my fancy looking roaches with their colourful spines and slimy green acid however as time passed more and more I felt like my ZvP was hitting a wall with the standard Roach / Corruptor mix, after playing much games and watching many different players with diferent styles I decided upon one which I find to be most fitting my needs. That is Zergling Baneling against Protoss.



Now some people who have never seen Baneling drops in action may be thinking "Banelings against stalkers are you insane?" well... maybe however I am confident Banelings are certainly viable against Protoss.



So to avoid further time wasting I'll get straight to the actual build.



Overview

+ Show Spoiler + Zerglings with upgrades (Especially adrenaline) are quite effective versus any unit that is not in a tightly closed ball (splash units being the exception).

Banelings on the other hand are very effective against units that are balled so together they make quite the combination.

Obviously this is nothing new (ZvT) but the combination is actually even more effective against Protoss (at least in the sense that the Zerglings don't die in under 10 seconds). Combining this with overlords allows the Banelings to get past Forcefields, The final hurdle to killing that juicy Protoss ball of money.



How?

+ Show Spoiler + So, How can you ever get enough banelings to beat a 4 gate or even a 2 base timing?.



Answer; You don't the strength of this strategy (or weakness depending on your perspective) is that for the first 9 minutes or so you rely almost entirely on zerglings and spine crawlers.



Colossus?

+ Show Spoiler + There's a few things to consider the most notable of all being colossus they're a big part PvZ and they 2 shot Zerglings (1 Shot with +2 attack) and 1 shot Banelings.



So Here's some scenarios.



(A)1 Colo Supported by gateway army (no Templar); a ground based assault with Ling / Bling can break this army (Assuming sufficient macro) however it does rely on Protoss either having few/no Sentries or being bad with Force field. Ideally you will have drop by this point and be able to take out a significant portion of the army with drops otherwise as I said you must rely on the Protoss to make a mistake.



(B)2-3 Colo Supported by gateway army (no Templar); You must have drop and speed by this point if not you might be able to get lucky with enough Banelings to kill everything. You will need 12 - 30 Banelings depending on the upgrades / army size to cripple the army enough for the lings to clean up.



(C)5-6 Colo Supported by gateway army (no Templar); if the Protoss gets more then 3 colo you NEED Corruptors immediately if your opponent isn't going Templar this is the most likely late game situation, a combination of 3/3 lings (100+) 40 or so Banelings in overlords and 10-15 Corruptors should be able to defeat a late game composition like this. Likely the Protoss will reinforce with a lot of gateway units , keep making lings and morph 10 or so Banelings for the reinforcement cleanup (Protoss will never warp in sentries here so overlords are not necessary)



(D) Situation A + Templar; The addition of Templar will significantly reduce sentry count and slow this push having drop is essential (Banelings cannot roll through a storm even on creep) ideally you will be able to land a Baneling bomb without losing all of your Zerglings, admittedly this is a very tough situation but assuming you lose all your lings your reinforcements should be able to clean up (unfortunately you will likely lose a base in this situation)



(E) Situation B + Templar; Once again with Templar added this will be much lower on gas units and slower however this is certainly the hardest situation of deal with using ling / Bling ideally you wont let such a thing happen but if it cannot be avoided for whatever reason the best advice I can give you is so many BANELINGS.



If the toss gets this army you better have 4k banked, make a lot of Banelings (70+ would be ideal) load as many as you can up into overlords, drop while attacking with lings on the ground and do what you can.



(F) Situation C + Templar; Doesn't happen, if it does GG or BM whatever your flavour is and contemplate switching race



Templar?

+ Show Spoiler + I'll Cover all 3 Templar variants here (HT/DT/Archon) so bear with me please.



High Templar; Slow moving , mid game units storm will kill a Zergling in 2 - 3 seconds and a Baneling in 2. They can feedback your queens too which... I guess could be annoying?.



When your opponent is teching high Templar (which in most cases he will) there are several things to take note of and incorporate.



(A) They cost gas...A lot of it likely he will have 8 or so sentries from the opening after that its almost guaranteed that no more sentries are around this is good because it means you don't need drop vs Templar-less army.



(B) They move slow; A bad Protoss will a move their army and the Templar will lag behind, if this happens run in 8 lings and snipe Templar likely you will get 2 - 3 before the army turns around and kills them (COST EFFECTIVE) don't rely on it just be aware of it.



More importantly however they cannot help much at all to defend against ling counter attacks because of their speed (even more so drawing the toss army back with this can result in unattended Templar yet again).



(C) They are scary; Engaging a Templar army with ling / bling is very dangerous and almost suicidal avoid a direct engagement whenever you can; utilize counters and drops as much as possible to keep the toss at home. Eventually he will likely get sick of the harass and attack you regardless, drop is essential when engaging storm will be almost completely irrelevant vs your overlord the risk however comes from losing all of your lings by a moving them into 1 or 2 spam storms control well and you can come out on top of this.



(D) Last resort; If you cannot win a direct fight counter using drop and do as much as you can potentially you can win a base race.



Dark Templar; average move speed early / mid game units Permanently cloaked. They 1 shot lings / Banelings and drones.



Teching to DT's is rarely anything besides a harass tactic and perhaps a mid game mineral Archon here's some things to keep in mind.



(A) Teching to DT's in the early game uses a lot of resources and is very slow , if you scout a Protoss with a lot of Zealots (or no units at all) and no expo he may be going dt's scout with overlord to find out , if you still don't figure out his tech make a spore crawler to be safe.



(B) If you opponent attempts a DT rush and expands behind it depending on your economic state you can choose to all-in with lings the toss will be forced to cancel the expo and wait, if you want you can attempt a Baneling bust to follow up though I would not recommend this unless you are certain he has no sentries.



(C) A failed DT rush is not the end for him do not make the mistake of thinking it is.



Archons; Average move speed early / mid game units they have very high health and deal splash damage. They also 2 shot lings.



(A) Archons overall do not pose much of a threat an Archon that is surrounded by well upgraded lings will die very quickly the main time you will see Archons above all others is during the Protoss reinforcements after a large battle, in combination with zealots Archons are near indestructible against Zerglings wait for Banelings to remove the zealots or avoid engaging all together.



(B) Archons mixed into Armies can either be a 400 resource paper weight or a Zergling killing machine depending on the terrain and army composition; Avoid fighting Archons with Zerglings in a choke ideally the only time you will ever engage an Archon is when you can surround it. Secondly and much more important even is when Baneling dropping an army you must be absolutely careful to avoid dropping on the Archons with their 360 hp and large size Banelings are incredibly ineffective against them.





Sentries?

+ Show Spoiler + Snipe them! They are very gas heavy and whether the Protoss replenishes them or not it will always benefit you to snipe sentries, when dropping with overlords try your best to land 3 Banelings on the inevitable sentry ball when you kill those sentries your army becomes 100x stronger.



Build order

+ Show Spoiler + I just want to emphasize that I am a low level player and much more refinement is needed for this build order.



NOTE: this is written taking into account the 1 less drone after making a building.



9 OL

13 Pool

15 Gas*

14 Scout

15 OL

16 2 pairs of Lings

18 Queen

21 Hatchery



* At 150 gas pull drones off (you may leave 1 drone on gas if you wish)

Research speed at 100 gas you should have 50 saved up.



From here on the build relies somewhat on reacting to what you scout which will be covered in the next section but here is a general idea of the things you need to do (All of these if for some reason you cannot scout anything at all)



Make a 3rd queen

Make spine crawlers to defend yourself in the early game (2-15 depending on how safe / unsafe you feel)

Spread creep with 3rd queen

Make evolution chamber(s)

Make spore crawlers in mineral lines and at ramp (only if you suspect air or dt's)

Get Lair

Take a fast 3rd Protecting it with your Spine crawler army

Upgrades! (prioritize based on the circumstances)

Infestation Pit

Hive!

Ultralisk Cavern

HARASS!!!!!





Reacting

+ Show Spoiler + Here's a list of Protoss openings and the appropriate reactions as far as I am aware.



2 Gate

With a 13 pool you should have little to no trouble stopping this , 1 - 2 Spine crawlers in base and use Zerglings / Queen to defend. (Proxy is the same reaction)



Forge First Expand

This opening has become more and more popular lately, depending on how quickly the protoss makes their nexus you can get your hatch much quicker on some maps scouting the nexus timing will be impossible; just continue with the build as normal you will be pumping drones almost non stop for a while so you should still come out ahead or at least even.



3 Gate Expand

3 Gate has fallen out of popularity somewhat but it is still used often. if you scout this put your third queen on the ramp and the spine crawlers should deal with any attempted pressure



4 Gate

Even less common these days but still a huge threat when unscouted (even more so for this build) make Spine crawlers till you think you're safe, back them up with lings DO NOT LET HIM RUN BY SPINES. If its a very Zealot heavy 4 Gate (Which it should be given your mass lings) make a Baneling nest with the extra 50 gas you saved, and put 3 workers back on there asap. Assuming you defend the 4 gate you can choose to counter all in with ling bane immediately this should work a large amount of the time but if it fails you will be very behind without doing significant damage otherwise macro like normal.



Stargate expand (4 phoenix 1 Voidray)

Make spore's covering the mineral line and make 2 extra queens this should easily stop such harass, add more spores if necessary (You can usually cut some spines against this opening as an immediate ground follow up is unlikely).



Nexus First

Can speedling all-in out of a 13 pool or play standard, faster hatch or not you should be able to even the field economically with your fast 3rd and non stop drone pump, watch out for 5 - 6 gate followups (more on this below).



5 - 6 Gate on 2 base

One of the toughest openings to stop with this build, Banelings are essential, as are a lot of spine crawlers, likely this will move out around the time you take your 3rd, it is recommended that you cancel your 3rd and retreat everything back to your natural.

The most important thing to do is not attack the zealots with your lings but rather focus on stalkers, while the attack is happening try to run 10 - 12 lings into the Protoss natural this will significantly hinder the Protoss' production. As I said this is one of the hardest opening's and I have very little experience vs currently, if the sentries die (or are just never made) you can hold this quite easily with 10 or so Banelings.



5 - 6 Gate Nexus cancel

This is another of the toughest builds to hold, less due to its raw power and more due to the fake expand making you much more unprepared, because of this reason I usually assume my opponent will 4 gate no matter what (unless I scout a stargate / forge /DT's) that should work unfortunately I also have little experience against this build.



Dark Templar Rush

Even if you have no idea this is coming you should already have an evolution chamber and likely a lair nearly done so avoiding too much damage shouldn't be very difficult just make a spore in each mineral line and one at the ramp.



This is all the openings I can think of right now any additional openings you think of let me know!





The art of (Counter) attacking

+ Show Spoiler +

The goal of this build above all else is offense, on the one hand it relies almost entirely on defending to have any chance in combat while on the other hand attacking constantly is one of the most important defense tactics.



In getting such fast overlord speed / drop you can instantly switch from your highly defensive position (15 Spine crawlers is pretty defensive) into all out aggression in the form of Zergling and Baneling drops. By harassing and attacking your opponent from all possible locations and abusing all of the maps resources you can keep a constant eye on the Protoss army, this serves a few purposes.



For one knowing the Protoss army is no where near his 3rd , opens yet another location for attacking.



Second it allows you to pick off units that are left in vulnerable positions this is most important when playing vs Templar compositions, any Templar that are left alone due to your aggression can be picked off with 8 Zerglings very quickly.



Lastly if you know where the army is you also know what it is, knowing his composition will allow you to adapt much quicker (namely getting Corruptors in time to stop colo armys).



How to force a reaction

+ Show Spoiler +

Right now this is a small section due to inexperience and just not having much ability to force reactions.



The 2 main ways you can force a protoss player to react in ways that negatively affect him are as follows



1. Killing workers / tech, if you kill 25 / 50 workers for 16 Zerglings he is not going to be very pleased and is much much more likely to react by killing you (or trying).

Its difficult to figure out when this is a good thing, you really don't want to force your opponent into an all in that you cannot defend, generally a good time to try something like this though is when he is teching to something that you cannot stop in time, so that hopefully they abandon their tech and go kill you without the ever so threatening tech (if you forget your spire and the toss has 1 colo already this is a good time to try and force an all in).



2. In the early game you can force a Protoss to be much more defensive by faking aggression of your own , this can serve to reverse the roles somewhat , by replacing your defensive spines with ling / bling early game the toss can be forced into a defensive position while you drone up much more, this is however very risky and will only work in some very rare circumstances.



The last way you can force a reaction with this build is much weaker and later, but if you get very fast Broodlords you can force the Protoss to neglect anti ling defenses in favor of much more stalkers (stalkers blink in , Banelings kill them all since they can't blink anymore) as I said this is a much weaker forced reaction and comes a lot later however it does have its uses and is worth keeping in mind.



Maps

+ Show Spoiler +

This build is much better on maps where the 3rd and natural are both easily defended by spine crawlers, Shakuras or even better GSL Crevasse is a good example.



Xelnaga is an example of a 50/50 map, on the one hand all 3rd bases are blocked by rocks (without destroying rocks you can't defend them properly) and the gold is covered by rocks also , but once you clear the gold rocks it is a nicely defended position.



Metalopolis close positions would be a good example of a bad map for this , the 3rd is near impossible to take and defend so it relies heavily on hiding a base (or you can take the base between the two of you however rushing Corruptors is necessary in this case to stop Colossus from out ranging your defenses).







As I have mentioned several times I am a low level player and thus I cannot produce the apm / macro / micro in a lot of situations to pull all of this off , as such my advice is far from perfect. I would like to turn this into a real guide for that I need the help of you fine folks so please do post criticism / ideas etc and help this guide grow, I'll continue to add replays / Vods as I find them.



Replays

+ Show Spoiler +

Versus Insane AI, I lost but its a good example of how well the build does early on against heavy aggression. (I even forget ling speed)





Practice game was first game of the day so I play terrible, forgot spire and died to colossus.





Ladder game on shakuras, opens forge expand late game comp is Gateway / Archon.





Ladder game, Opens 3 gate + forge expo Late game comp is gateway + 3 colo, good game for an example of the build.





Ladder game, Opponent opens blink stalker, I scout it and counter appropriately.





Ladder game, Close Pos metal quite a few bad engagements from me and forget spire, good example of how to not play.





Ladder game, Opens forge first late game is Gateway / Archon. Another good example of the build overall



Versus Insane AI, I lost but its a good example of how well the build does early on against heavy aggression. (I even forget ling speed)Practice game was first game of the day so I play terrible, forgot spire and died to colossus.Ladder game on shakuras, opens forge expand late game comp is Gateway / Archon.Ladder game, Opens 3 gate + forge expo Late game comp is gateway + 3 colo, good game for an example of the build.Ladder game, Opponent opens blink stalker, I scout it and counter appropriately.Ladder game, Close Pos metal quite a few bad engagements from me and forget spire, good example of how to not play.Ladder game, Opens forge first late game is Gateway / Archon. Another good example of the build overall





VODs

+ Show Spoiler +

Original idea came from this game, while he doesn't do exactly the same thing as my build a lot of the ideas came from this and it does have some similarity's

Idra vs Mana game 1 in NASL season 1

http://www.justin.tv/naslseasonone/b/284961387?utm_campaign=archive_embed_click&utm_source=www-cdn.justin.tv





Sheth's Baneling drop's vs protoss



Not doing exactly this build again but show's how effective baneling drops can be.









More to come when I find them!

Original idea came from this game, while he doesn't do exactly the same thing as my build a lot of the ideas came from this and it does have some similarity'sIdra vs Mana game 1 in NASL season 1Sheth's Baneling drop's vs protossNot doing exactly this build again but show's how effective baneling drops can be.More to come when I find them!



Thanks for reading, really hope I didn't break any rules. So to start off I'm not master league or pro by any means however I have put much time / thought into this and I hope it comes across.So I was a happy Zerg player running around with my fancy looking roaches with their colourful spines and slimy green acid however as time passed more and more I felt like my ZvP was hitting a wall with the standard Roach / Corruptor mix, after playing much games and watching many different players with diferent styles I decided upon one which I find to be most fitting my needs. That is Zergling Baneling against Protoss.Now some people who have never seen Baneling drops in action may be thinking "Banelings against stalkers are you insane?" well... maybe however I am confident Banelings are certainly viable against Protoss.So to avoid further time wasting I'll get straight to the actual build.As I have mentioned several times I am a low level player and thus I cannot produce the apm / macro / micro in a lot of situations to pull all of this off , as such my advice is far from perfect. I would like to turn this into a real guide for that I need the help of you fine folks so please do post criticism / ideas etc and help this guide grow, I'll continue to add replays / Vods as I find them.Thanks for reading, really hope I didn't break any rules.