Author Topic Page: 1 2 of 2 Siar88

South Africa

4 Posts Posted - Jan 18 2011 : 10:47:09 PM Hi,



This is my first time posting here and I really have no idea if anyone can help me but I am relationship troubles with my girlfriend who practices tantra and its because of tantra.



First off I want to asure everyone that I'm not against tantra. On the contrary, A lot of what I have learned about tantra through my girlfriend I find I intuitively agree with. We have tantric sex and its great and it really connects us.



Problems started arising when she told me she wanted to do a tantra teaching training- which would involve learning all the various trantric massages (lingam and yoni) aswell as several sharing exercises.



I was against this at first as I did not want her to be naked and initimate with other men. But I decided it was ok since she had been planning to do it before we started dating.



Now the training is over and she's telling me she wants to go to various tantra workshops and start practicing tantric massage with another man she met on her training.



Now, correct me if i'm wrong. But I've seen tantra to take various forms, formost as a philosophy to live life by (which i totally agree with and am following myself. However I've also seen a 'cult' like form it takes. This takes form in the sudden need to practice tantric massage outside of our relationship, desire to go to workshops, desire to meet some of the 'upper echelon' of the tantra world.



I'm afraid she's getting involved in this 'cult' like side i've described and I dont think i can handle it as it will most certainly involve her being naked and intimate with a large number of people and I feel that is going to destroy our relationship.





As I said before, i intuitively agree with a lot of what tantra teaches and my girlfriend and I love eachother deeply as a result of having tantric sex with eachother. But thats all. I love the philosophy of it between two lovers. However I cannot handle it now that she wants to include the rest of the world.





What do I do? Chiron

Russia

395 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 05:00:07 AM i think if tantric practice is to generate the most intense feelings there should be devotion to only one partner. Devotion to that one partner should be on par with devotion to God-Goddess, because it is through union with that partner that you seek to achieve union with the Divine.



The sexual organs should be treated as sacred. If they are being touched by a number of different people then that's making an energy salad. This is likely to have a disbalancing and counter-productive effect. And the intensity of internal feelings with any one person will be reduced.



Your girlfriend needs to think carefully before she goes off doing lingam and yoni massages with others, and i think you need to tell her exactly how you feel about all this.



Just curious, are you able to provide a more in-depth description of the kind of tantric practices you are doing? Rattan

South Africa

41 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 05:05:58 AM



The way AYP approaches Tantra is very different to what your girlfriend would have been taught. And if I am guessing right about who your girlfriend's trainer is, she strongly disagrees with AYP's Tantric philosophy. (You can read more of AYP's approach in the Tantra Lessons.



In any case, in my opinion "tantric massage" has nothing to do with Tantra, being in essence only a sexual massage. There is nothing there that would help a person doing the AYP practices.



You are in a very difficult situation, and I cannot think of any advice I can give that might help your relationship.



It sounds to me as if your girlfriend is strongly motivated to continue with what she wants to do. You are therefore left to try to accept your girlfriend's lifestyle choice. Which might be possible for you to do, but it would mean hard work on your own attitude, to be able to emotionally accept what she is doing.



If you cannot accept her choice of lifestyle, then your relationship with her would inevitably, eventually end. If you can now clearly see that, then you would save yourself a lot of pain by ending it sooner, rather than later.



Perhaps someone else on the forum can give more positive advice.



All the best.

Siar88, Welcome to the forum.The way AYP approaches Tantra is very different to what your girlfriend would have been taught. And if I am guessing right about who your girlfriend's trainer is, she strongly disagrees with AYP's Tantric philosophy. (You can read more of AYP's approach in the Tantra Lessons. http://www.aypsite.org/TantraDirectory.html In any case, in my opinion "tantric massage" has nothing to do with Tantra, being in essence only a sexual massage. There is nothing there that would help a person doing the AYP practices.You are in a very difficult situation, and I cannot think of any advice I can give that might help your relationship.It sounds to me as if your girlfriend is strongly motivated to continue with what she wants to do. You are therefore left to try to accept your girlfriend's lifestyle choice. Which might be possible for you to do, but it would mean hard work on your own attitude, to be able to emotionally accept what she is doing.If you cannot accept her choice of lifestyle, then your relationship with her would inevitably, eventually end. If you can now clearly see that, then you would save yourself a lot of pain by ending it sooner, rather than later.Perhaps someone else on the forum can give more positive advice.All the best. Siar88

South Africa

4 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 05:54:49 AM Thanks for the feedback so far.



I want to try and convince her not to do it, essentially. But I feel i can't get through to her on the matter if I can't communicate with her from a tantric perspective. I really don't know enough to be able to do this which is why i'm here asking for help. Already what Chiron has said is very helpful and I think i can make headway. I love her very much and dont want to lose her and so i'm looking into every reasonable alternative before having to leave her.



I've already changed and compromised a lot for her and I feel that at the very least she can agree to the 'normal' tennets of a relationship, that of not being naked and initimate with others.



The worst part is that she tells me she recognises that she is being unfair in this exchange yet still presses on. She see's the unfairness of it being a sort of guilt she needs to transcend somehow.

Clear White Light

USA

229 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 07:45:11 AM If you're not comfortable with what she wants to do then leave her. Being in a relationship means that each member should be respectful of one anther's feelings. Obviously she doesn't care how you feel because she intends to do what she wants to do regardless. That doesn't sound like a very well balanced relationship to me.



I can tell you with certainty that if my girlfriend didn't respect my wishes that she does not place herself in sexual situations with other people (spiritual or otherwise), I would definitely leave her. Edited by - Clear White Light on Jan 19 2011 07:48:56 AM jeff

USA

971 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 10:48:38 AM CWL is correct. Consider that your relationship is not equal in commitment. Relationships are difficult where one party is "chasing" the other. She is still experimenting sexually with others. Always be careful, when a relationship partner tells you "it's not you, it's me".



Namaste, Jeff Rattan

South Africa

41 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 11:18:41 AM It is not possible to change people's beliefs with argument.



Your girlfriend now firmly believes the sugar coating of "tantric values" that have been sprinkled over her sexual massage practice.



I do not think that you will be able to change her beliefs with argument. The belief in the normal societal values of an exclusive relationship between two people, whether Tantric or normal, is the one she must weigh up against her belief in her "tantric values".



Just some lateral thinking. Why not suggest to her that you also want to do the training and join her in being in sexual situations with others. It might be interesting to find out how she feels about that. riptiz

United Kingdom

741 Posts Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 12:50:23 PM Hi Siar88,

Coincidentally I have just been to India to visit my guru and my teacher and I were discussing Tantra last week.

There are two paths of Tantra, the right side which follows celibacy of which Kundalini Maha Yoga (which I practice)is a part of, and the left side which indulges in sexual activity.KMY awakens the Kundalini with shaktipat and the left side with the act of sex.The Tantra practices you speak of have nothing to do with "real" Tantra as the left side does not use sexual practices in the way your girlfriend is or as many in the West do.Tantra is not about how long you can keep it up with your partner in a night(sorry Sting/Trudy it's not the real meaning of Tantra), it is a method of awakening the Kundalini.

It was explained to me as thus.When a couple get together(and often in days gone by they were chosen by the guru and not by lust or attractiveness)they remained celibate for a number of months and indulged in sadhana to raise the energy levels to a high enough level so that when they eventually had sex, at the point of orgasm, the energy would awaken the Kundalini and rise up the sushumna.It's not quite what your girlfriend is involved with is it?Of course if you read Yogani's take on Tantra he is talking of the same as I when he talks of conserving the energy by holdback etc.The problem being for the man is that orgasm loses much more energy for him than the woman.Basically she takes and he gives.If both of you are involved in regular sadhana then the energy loss will be less as she will have good levels also but she will have energy loss if she is involved in sexual Tantra of which you speak, and she will drain you also if you are not careful.This may not be the case but it is a possibility. I hope this is helpful in understanding though probably not in solving your problem.

L&L

Dave wakeupneo

USA

171 Posts Posted - Jan 25 2011 : 6:36:09 PM Siar,



Sounds likes she "wants to have her cake and eat it too" pardon the idiom ;)



From the sound of it, she has little respect for you and having sexual relations with other men under the guise of spirituality is more important to her then you are.



Either you learn to accept this (damn near impossible), you leave her or she leaves you after you put your foot down. The relationship sounds like it's missing many fundamental qualities...



best of luck

j manigma

India

1065 Posts Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 01:44:27 AM quote: Originally posted by Siar88

I'm afraid she's getting involved in this 'cult' like side i've described and I dont think i can handle it as it will most certainly involve her being naked and intimate with a large number of people and I feel that is going to destroy our relationship.



Tantra is beyond relationships.



I guess your girlfriend is trying to become a Tantra Goddess.



The worldly relations should not interfere with what she does Tantrically.



I would be more than pleased to have a girlfriend or wife like her.



Tantra is beyond relationships.I guess your girlfriend is trying to become a Tantra Goddess.Theshould not interfere with what she does Tantrically.I would be more than pleased to have a girlfriend or wife like her. Clear White Light

USA

229 Posts Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 07:43:19 AM quote: Originally posted by manigma







The worldly relations should not interfere with what she does Tantrically.





But they are interfering. That's the point. Unless they have agreed to be in an open relationship of some sort there is no way that this couldn't interfere with a monogamous, committed relationship. "Tantra" should not be a license to go outside of the boundaries of your relationship unless somehow both people are equally aware and accepting of that. This is clearly not the case here.



Would you REALLY want a girlfriend that doesn't respect you enough to not have sex with other people when you're not OK with that? Besides, the vast majority of "tantra training workshops" that I have ever come into contact with have very little to do with genuine spiritual development. But they are interfering. That's the point. Unless they have agreed to be in an open relationship of some sort there is no way that this couldn't interfere with a monogamous, committed relationship. "Tantra" should not be a license to go outside of the boundaries of your relationship unless somehow both people are equally aware and accepting of that. This is clearly not the case here.Would you REALLY want a girlfriend that doesn't respect you enough to not have sex with other people when you're not OK with that? Besides, the vast majority of "tantra training workshops" that I have ever come into contact with have very little to do with genuine spiritual development. Edited by - Clear White Light on Jan 26 2011 07:45:00 AM manigma

India

1065 Posts Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 08:39:04 AM quote: Originally posted by Clear White Light



quote: Originally posted by manigma







The worldly relations should not interfere with what she does Tantrically.





But they are interfering. That's the point.



Then Siar88 does not know what Tantric Sex or Love really are.



He said:

We have tantric sex and its great and it really connects us.



Who connects with whom?



Love gives the ultimate freedom. You can not bound someone with yourself if you really love him/her.



Then Siar88 does not know what Tantric Sex or Love really are.He said:Who connects with whom?You can not bound someone with yourself if you really love him/her. Clear White Light

USA

229 Posts Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 10:50:07 AM quote: Originally posted by manigma



quote: Originally posted by Clear White Light



quote: Originally posted by manigma







The worldly relations should not interfere with what she does Tantrically.





But they are interfering. That's the point.



Then Siar88 does not know what Tantric Sex or Love really are.







Maybe he doesn't know what they "really are". Maybe his girlfriend doesn't either. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I think that is what the real source of the problem is here. I do know that she has at least given him the impression that they are in a relationship entailing certain mutual expectations. I also know that whether these expectations are based on understanding what "love" really is, or not, they are causing unnecessary suffering to someone.



quote:

Love gives the ultimate freedom. You can not bound someone with yourself if you really love him/her.





That is true, but it is equally true for both parties. Siarr's girlfriend may be operating on this wavelength, but I think that if she were she would recognize her own role in contributing to his suffering and release him from that. Maybe he doesn't know what they "really are". Maybe his girlfriend doesn't either. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I think that is what the real source of the problem is here. I do know that she has at least given him the impression that they are in a relationship entailing certain mutual expectations. I also know that whether these expectations are based on understanding what "love" really is, or not, they are causing unnecessary suffering to someone.That is true, but it is equally true for both parties. Siarr's girlfriend may be operating on this wavelength, but I think that if she were she would recognize her own role in contributing to his suffering and release him from that. tonightsthenight

846 Posts Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 4:46:45 PM quote: Originally posted by manigma



quote: Originally posted by Clear White Light



quote: Originally posted by manigma







The worldly relations should not interfere with what she does Tantrically.





But they are interfering. That's the point.



Then Siar88 does not know what Tantric Sex or Love really are.



He said:

We have tantric sex and its great and it really connects us.



Who connects with whom?



Love gives the ultimate freedom. You can not bound someone with yourself if you really love him/her.









Manigma, I have come to find most of your postings very helpful and positive.



This isn't one of them!



We need to balance our spiritual and material selves if we are to achieve our aims for our lives.



It is true that in a purely spiritual world, there is no binding or control in love. But on the physical plane, this is not so. Our cultural, and indeed genetic, evolution have devised a fantastic strategy for survival, happiness and success in life. It's called monogamy bro. Manigma, I have come to find most of your postings very helpful and positive.This isn't one of them!We need to balance our spiritual and material selves if we are to achieve our aims for our lives.It is true that in a purely spiritual world, there is no binding or control in love. But on the physical plane, this is not so. Our cultural, and indeed genetic, evolution have devised a fantastic strategy for survival, happiness and success in life. It's called monogamy bro. manigma

India

1065 Posts Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 11:55:51 PM quote: Originally posted by Clear White Light

I also know that whether these expectations are based on understanding what "love" really is, or not, they are causing unnecessary suffering to someone.



Yes, suffering is always unnecessary . The sooner you know, the better.



quote:

Siarr's girlfriend may be operating on this wavelength, but I think that if she were she would recognize her own role in contributing to his suffering and release him from that.



She is releasing him.



Now the training is over and she's telling me she wants to go to various tantra workshops and start practicing tantric massage with another man she met on her training.



Yes, suffering is always. The sooner you know, the better.Shereleasing him. manigma

India

1065 Posts Posted - Jan 27 2011 : 12:05:44 AM quote: Originally posted by tonightsthenight

It is true that in a purely spiritual world, there is no binding or control in love. But on the physical plane, this is not so. Our cultural, and indeed genetic, evolution have devised a fantastic strategy for survival, happiness and success in life. It's called monogamy bro.



It is a purely spirtiual world.



The Physical plane exists in the mind only. The culture, survival strategys, monogamy etc are creation of the mind.



Your world, your laws.



Ita purely spirtiual world.The Physical plane exists in the mind only. The culture, survival strategys, monogamy etc are creation of the mind.Your world, your laws. markern

Norway

171 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 10:18:42 AM I have a lot to say about this topic!



In a non tantric relationship I am generally pro having some degree of sexual openess towards others. In a tantric realtionship I am strictly against having any sort of sexual openeness.



I am in favour of some degree of sexual openess in ordinary realtionships because after the first couple of years when the initial crush has died statistics show most people aren`t having much sex at all. If you look at swingers, BDSM couples that sometimes play with others, polyamorous couples etc. you will find that they are not just having sex with other people but a LOT of sex with each other as oposed to ordinary couples. THis is because the excitment from teh sex with otehr people keep the sexual attraction between the couple alive as well. I find this to be preferable to ordinary realtionships wich from my observation are largely dead in most cases once a few years has passed. THere is a risk involved entering such a realtionship of an initial break because of jealousy etc. but most people go through several realtionships before they find one that lasts a long time so if you take this gabmle a couple of times you are likely to end in a relationship where you both can handle the jealousy and because of the opneness maintain the sexual spark and thus maintain the closeness and quality of the realtionship. It is not for everyone but I think a l,ot of people would be better of with this.



When a couple practices tantra I am 100% against any sexual relations with others. This is because Tantra CORRECTLY practised will maintain the sexual desire and love between a couple. WHen I say this most people think that is because Tantra through giving strong and new exctiting sexual experiences keeps the attraction alive. THis is NOT the case.



THe thing is normal sex is based on peak orgasms. Peak orgasms leads to a massive release of dopamine. As one has more peak orgasms with the same person sexual desire dwindles as any object your brain sees as giving it a surge of dopamine will give less and less dopamine over time. THis has been found to be the case by scientists studying the effect of dopamine on any experience. Dopamin rushes signals exctiment and reward but over time what you are acustomed to brings less and less excitment. So eventually sexual desire becomes less or non existent. Some people try to solve this problem by trying new exctiting things in the bedroom. THat can help a lot but generally for most people it does not suffice over the long term. Involving other people will usually have a stronger effect but has very high risks. So essentially all relationships based on peak orgasms will experience trobule with sexual desirte over the long term as peak orgasms are based on excitment and the familiar is not exciting.



But dwindling sexual desire is not the only problem with peak orgasm sex. Peak orgasms as mentioned lead to a massive release of dopamine. However, after a surge of dopamine it drops massively and then fluctuates up and down slightly lower than optimal levels for two weeks untill it stabilizes. During the honeymoon fase of a relationship this doesen`T matter so much as we are kept aritificially hgih and hapy by a ton of hormones and chemicals that make us feel good and feel good about our partners. But once these die out people get in trouble.



WHen people are low on dopamine they tend to get fearfull and resentfull and a host of other problemtatic things. Low dopamine often leads to addictive behaviour because people seek to get their dopamine up by getting another fix of dopamine from some sort of outside stimulus.



THe fluctuations in dopamine levels lead to conflict and arguing and distance between couples. SOmeone low in dopamine will be difficult to live with for anyone but in the case of a couple they sense that their partner is the source of the problem because initially the partner kept their hormone levels up but now they are down. In addition when people are low on dopamine and their partner does not seem like a viable source of getting it back up anymore other people become very tempting. So peak orgasmic sex eventually lead to desire for infidelity or break up of the realionship.



Tantra practiced correctly does not have these effects. In tantra you are suposed to be completely relaxed and you expereince a mix of relaced sexual bliss that is in some way orgasmlike but in some ways not and is more like continual bliss and you also experience valey orgasms also called total relaxation orgasms. Valey orgasms are not based on excitment but rather on being relaxed, being in the moment and just the polarity betwenn the couple and the calm soft opening of the flow of sexual energy. It is yin as oposed to the peak orgasms yang. THe general tantric bliss and the peak orgasm do not lead to dopmaine surgess



How can I now this? Has it been studied by scientists? No but the pieces of hte puzzle are all here. It is known that animals studied show the two week dopamine cycle after orgasm exists. First very high, then low, then fluctuating too low then back to balance after two weeks. A bunch of people have also systematicly mapped out that the dopamine orgasm cycle is present in humans as well. At reuniting.info tons of people have over years experimented with having no orgasms and seeing what happens after two weeks, having tantric valey orgasms and seeing what happens and comparing and then seeing what happens if they once again have peak orgasms. What people have found is that there is a two week cycle. If the couple stop having peak orgasms and have only truly relxed tantric sex where the energy remains fairly cool, after two weeks their moods stabilize and their desire for peak orgasms becomes much much less. If they then have a peak orgasm they sense that after the initial high and the afterglow they start to fluctuate in mood, and start showing strong desire for more peak orgasms and hot sex.



IN this way they have documented clearly that there is a two week cycle. That peak orgasms leads to unstable moods, conflict between couples, desire for other sexual partners, cravings for other addictive stimulus such as alcholol, porn, junk food etc.



ON the other hand having a stable diet of pre orgasmic and valey orgasm sex leads to stable moods, little conflict, reduction or diminshing desire for extra exctiting or extra stimulating things whatever that may be to you, strong reduction or total removal of desire for other sexual partners. It also leads to a feeling of strong stable and sexualized love. This feeling is not the same as the honeymoon crush type being in love. It is more like the love long term lovers feel, companionate love. This love is more stable and based on feeling safe and cared for rather than excited. However, unlike in normal couples this love gets much, much stronger when tantra is practiced correctly. In addition it is sexualized in a different way so it has a component that most poeple feel is missing or at least weak in the long term companionate love they are feeling towards their partner.



THis type of love and this type of sexual attraction is not only maintained indefinitively but strengthened when tantra is practiced correct (no peak orgasms, energy remains fairly cool etc.). Sure couples might still split up. SOme are just not a good match and lifes cirumstances can drive wedges between couples that are too much to take. But think how many couples would stay together happily if the feelings and sexual attraction from the first year or two where maintained indefintively. AS 50% of marriages last today my guess would be well over 80%. The attraction an d love created by tatnra is actually even more suited for this task as it is more stable and rational in a way not over excited. I would also guess that if you are a reasonably good match and not very neurotic and practice this form of tantra then the odds are extremely high that you will reamin together happily for the rest of your lives.



If you have had such sex concsistently for a long time and stayed away from peak orgasms desire for other people will be very weak compared to if you had normal sex but it will still sometimes be there just a little bit. If you deceide monogamy is a good choice for you maintaining fiedilty is quite easy in such a situation. WHen you dòn`t desperately need another surge of dopamine to feel good you don`t really need extramarital sex. However, if your view on life is that having sex with others in addition to your partner is a good thing, you want to share love with everyone or something like that you might still deceid to do it and you could enjoy it.



This messes things up. Firstly the exctiment of a new partner makes staying away from peak orgasms very hard and thus yoiu end up on the dopamine roler coaster again. Even if you do not you become emotionally and energeticly split and you become very bonded to the new partner(s) because this type of sex is very bonding and love creating. Then you are in the situation that the feelings you have for your original partner aren`t taht special anymore because you have them for otehr people as well. THen you might very well decied to dump the initial partenr and enter a relaitonship with one of the new ones as a primary partner. If this realtionship is also open you will likely change partner again some years down the line and so on. The consequence then is that life long partnerships become unlikely. THat has the consequence of instabilty for children if they are involved and instabilty for you because you will go through break up after break up. Also your body will pick up on this and read it well even if you don`t your body will know that these realtionshisp aren`t likely to last and will never release the same amount of love hormones when it does not belive you will be lifelong partners. You body will refuse to invest as much in what it suspects will be a partenr for a few years as oposed to a partner it beilives will be arround for the rest of your life.



The key distinction here as oposed to the type of open relationships I advocated for non tantric relationships is that in those realtinships you can organiz thigns so that you get some excting sex outside the realionship but new love is unlikely to flourish. FOr example some couples will have threesomes with women they find online and will screen the women as being hihgly implausible romantic partners for the man such as hot but not smart enough, too you, too old, ho but not hot enough etc. or jsut that the couple will meet the girl and get a feel for wethr they feel safe that the other girl won`t break up the realionships. Or you have swingers that follow similar rules in finding other couples, women or men to play with. I have spent a lot of time lurking in swinger forums to see how well they manage this an they actually do manage it remarkably well for years one end without too much trouble. There are plenty of rules and guidelines developed by experienced swingers that massively increases the chances of success. Once you enter the landscape of polyamory where people actively seek other partners to fall in love with, have several romantic partenrs living together etc. then the chances of the realionships surviving long term becomes very very low. Many in my parents cicrlce of friends experiemnted with this from the seventies onwards and my parents say that almost without exception it did not work out well.



When you practice tantra and bring in other partners you get in a similar situation. If you choose peak orgasms with the extra partners the new orgasm cycles set in motion will wreck havoc on your realtionship as well and the benefit of tantra will be nullified. After long term practice of correct tantra you rare unlikely to nejoy peak orgasmic sex very much anyway. The vibration will feel wrong and it won`t reach the same levels and peths of good feelings. IF you choose to practice tantra and keep the energy cool and only have valey orgasms then you are virtually guaranteed to create strong feelings of love for the new partner and nad this love and this sexual attraction is likely to reamin making it hard to make such outside partners short term. THis means either way you mess up.



Based on this argument I am hgihly against any outside partners ina tantric realionship.



I will make another post with some further thoughts on your situation I just need to take a break from writing:)

























tonightsthenight

846 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 11:21:34 AM



It's an interesting position that you have. I don't agree, and I want to point out this particular paragraph to you:



quote: IN this way they have documented clearly that there is a two week cycle. That peak orgasms leads to unstable moods, conflict between couples, desire for other sexual partners, cravings for other addictive stimulus such as alcholol, porn, junk food etc.





That's not true at all.

It's certainly not true from a general consensus point of view.

I've never seen any data or studies that indicate this to be true.

No one has documented anything clearly in regard to this... there is no scientific evidence, only anecdotal from a few people.



And the conclusion you come to is downright outrageous!





I would be more careful in the future with your statements.



I know you mean well!

Phew! That was a whole lot of writing Markern!It's an interesting position that you have. I don't agree, and I want to point out this particular paragraph to you:That's not true at all.It's certainly not true from a general consensus point of view.I've never seen any data or studies that indicate this to be true.No one has documented anything clearly in regard to this... there is no scientific evidence, only anecdotal from a few people.And the conclusion you come to is downright outrageous!I would be more careful in the future with your statements.I know you mean well! markern

Norway

171 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 11:42:43 AM Almost all the western tantra teachers I have read about online and in books have no clue what they are doing. Firstly, they usually do not have a clue about the need for the sexual energy to no tbe too arroused, not too hot. THat the energy is the right "temperature" is vital for the relationship stability as I explained in the first post but is important for other reasons as well. Very arroused energy can be dangerous if it is not transformed or released. It will reamin in the body as a kind of dead energy and rot. It can also greatly amplify any excisting neurosis a person may have and it will often make people a bit manic and often agressive when there is a lot of it.



You can see evidence of this all over the internett where people who have learned taoist techniques of multiple orgasms or tantric techniqeus of mulitple orgasms come complaining about getting health problems and being totally messed up. It is very common.



There are techniques to balance out such overheated energy so that you let teh energy become more hot and avoid the problems. THis is still just compansation though and totally unecessary when you can just do it right from the begining.



Also too arroused energy does not move in the body as harmoniously as the cooler sexual energy. Also any time the energy gets too hot you are loosing vital energy. THis vital energy would have helped your meditation and health.



Most of the tantric teachers today think that for women to have lots of ejaculatory orgasms is great. In fact female ejaculation is a peak orgasm and a very depleting one. Very bad for meditation.

In general tantra teachers today see tantra as about having more and more exciting experiences. THey also focus on love etc. but do not udnerstand that their aprpach eventually undermines it. THey also talk about valey orgasms but mix in tons of peak orgasms as well.



Beyond this virtually none of these teachers ahve any clue about enlightenment. To use tantra as a direct tool for enlightenment usually requires years of experience in advanced meditation and yogic practices in order to work. What tantra can be without such prepartion is highly beneficial for the realtionhsip and the development of a person on a psychological and spiritual level but a spiritual level that does not come close to enlightenment. Tantra can also be a tool for purifying the channels in the body and building energy in a similar way like pranayama but as a tool for enlightenment it does not work without an advanced meditaiton practice. In addition when it is used for reaching enlightnment it is normally only used for a period of time not as a life long practice.



MOre or less every western tantra teacher I have read anything of completely misrepresents what tantra used to be, misunderstands vital concepts and generally turns it into what they themselves feel like turning it into. In addition they rarely if ever strike me as balanced people. Becoming balanced is a key goal in spirituality and they should have achieved a high degree of balance a long tiem ago but instead come of as mental teenagers. It is mindoggbling to me that these people can talk about how tantra is all about sexual freedom and the womans freedom to express her sexuality freely and blah blah blah this actually is only halfway true and had little meaning in terms of the overal goals of tantra.



AS far as tantric goddesses is concerned I have read through a lot of the tantra godess massage sites and it is full of the most deluded crap you can imaginge. They are almost exlusively way of in their own fantasy land and don`t know what they are talking about. IN practice it seems they think godess worship is all about giving women high self esteem in the american sense.



That said I belive they are for the most part genuine in really enjoying what they do and I belive for the most aprt they also manage to feel a lot of love for their clients. I can say that as I have ran into four of them in meditaiton circles. One of them actually has a hardocre practice and knows quite a lot about what she is doing from an energetic and classical perspective. THe others were clueless in that regard. WHat they all probably could provide was give and teach how to have more tantra like sexual experiences. That said at least one of them also thaught techniques I think are dangerous and out of context.



As far as yur girlfriend is involved you could show here what I have written and she could read cupids posined arrow and one of diane richardsons books on tantra in unison. The cupids poisoned arow book is about karezza a western form of tantra and for the most part talks about having sex wihtout orgasm. This can be confusing but the later parts of the book lets you know valey orgasms are alowed and frequently hapen. Richardsons boks describe a similar tantric aproach as karezza but talk more about valey orgasms and as such they work good in combination. Challenge her to make her own experiments (with you?) of trying to track the orgasm cycle with its dopamine hangover like the people at reuniting.info. There are tones of people there who have found this to be true and if you practice tantra in a way that sets the dopamine cycle of then it can not be real tantra. Aslo challenge her to go see a tibetan lama from a traditional lineage that has sexual tantra at higher levels and ask him what prerequisites need to be in order for it to lead to enlightenment and ask him wether he thinks the stuff her teachers are involved with has any hcance of leading them towards enlightenment. She could/should also find a teacher from the yogic tradition but it is harder to know how legit they are. THe tibetan lineages are very clear and authorative. But if she looks well she can find one that has broad respect among Indian swamis and comes from a tradition that includes sexual tantra. I guarantee he/she will only laugh at what her western teachers are doing. ALso challenge her to look thoroughly into the classical tantric texts and scholarly books on tantra from today (written by professors from oxford etc. something of high quality). If she is going to base her entire spirituality and life and work on the tantric perpsective of her teachers she should really research if what they say is true.



ON a final note virtualy every practioners of some experience and acomplishment that I have talked to in person or read the writings of thinks that what the typical western tantra teacher teaches and belives in is utter delusion.



I think you have let your girlfriend walk all over you and you would benefit from reading the book no more mister nice guy and also the way of the superior man by David Deida. WHen a man is not assertive and strong with his women she looses respect fro him and will treat him badly and loose sexual interest in him. "Pleasing" women never does any good either for the man or woman. How yang do you think it comes of when you give in to a woman in order to please her even though doing so sacrifices your self respect. IT comes across as weak and women always hate it wether they are willing to admit it or not.































JDH

USA

331 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 1:17:19 PM Hey Marken,



That was a long couple posts.



Different strokes for different folks - people find a tantra that fits with their particular preferences. Tantra has to meet us wherever we're at, even if that is far from enlightenment.



I do agree with your ultimate conclusions for the OP though. The type of tantra the GF is practicing doesn't fit with the relationship. markern

Norway

171 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 1:58:00 PM quote: Originally posted by JDH



Hey Marken,



That was a long couple posts.



Different strokes for different folks - people find a tantra that fits with their particular preferences. Tantra has to meet us wherever we're at, even if that is far from enlightenment.



I do agree with your ultimate conclusions for the OP though. The type of tantra the GF is practicing doesn't fit with the relationship.





Yes people need different things but I think a couple of things are inarguable such as the mainstream tantra community presenting themselves as teaching a path to enlightenment when they do not etc. Yes people need different things but I think a couple of things are inarguable such as the mainstream tantra community presenting themselves as teaching a path to enlightenment when they do not etc. tonightsthenight

846 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 8:57:51 PM quote: Originally posted by markern



quote: Originally posted by JDH



Hey Marken,



That was a long couple posts.



Different strokes for different folks - people find a tantra that fits with their particular preferences. Tantra has to meet us wherever we're at, even if that is far from enlightenment.



I do agree with your ultimate conclusions for the OP though. The type of tantra the GF is practicing doesn't fit with the relationship.





Yes people need different things but I think a couple of things are inarguable such as the mainstream tantra community presenting themselves as teaching a path to enlightenment when they do not etc.





nothing is inarguable nothing is inarguable Chiron

Russia

395 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 9:35:03 PM quote: Originally posted by tonightsthenight



quote: IN this way they have documented clearly that there is a two week cycle. That peak orgasms leads to unstable moods, conflict between couples, desire for other sexual partners, cravings for other addictive stimulus such as alcholol, porn, junk food etc.





That's not true at all.



From my experience it is true, although the length of the dopamine cycle may not be exactly two weeks as it probably differs from person to person.



Thank you for your posts markern! From my experience it is true, although the length of the dopamine cycle may not be exactly two weeks as it probably differs from person to person.Thank you for your posts markern! Edited by - Chiron on Jan 29 2011 9:52:25 PM tonightsthenight

846 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 10:41:53 PM quote: Originally posted by Chiron



quote: Originally posted by tonightsthenight



quote: IN this way they have documented clearly that there is a two week cycle. That peak orgasms leads to unstable moods, conflict between couples, desire for other sexual partners, cravings for other addictive stimulus such as alcholol, porn, junk food etc.





That's not true at all.



From my experience it is true, although the length of the dopamine cycle may not be exactly two weeks as it probably differs from person to person.



Thank you for your posts markern!





Yes, I'd say that it differs markedly from person to person.



As with everything. Some people tend to have an issue with proclaiming broad generalizations as fact. I'm not a big fan Yes, I'd say that it differs markedly from person to person.As with everything. Some people tend to have an issue with proclaiming broad generalizations as fact. I'm not a big fan JDas

USA

74 Posts Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 11:23:24 PM do you all completely understand what's going on in your relationships?

do you know the mind of the other?

wow, all these words and opinions based on extra very little information.

sorry, I find this hilarious.

she's doing what she feels she's gotta do, and to suggest that it's wrong makes no sense to me.

how would you know, getting this information from a secondary source?

That's crazy!

Do you realize that?

Sorry if this offends, but it's pretty logical.

we love our opinions, don't we, myself included BTW.

I'm no different. cosmic

USA

821 Posts Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 12:57:17 AM



Have you told her from the heart how you feel about this? It's not clear to me from your words how deeply you've discussed it, beyond letting her know you disapprove. That could make a difference. For example, if you come at her with judgment and disapproval, she is likely to resist what you're saying. But if you tell her how you feel, in terms of emotion, anger, sadness, feeling hurt, etc. without blaming her, it will be easier for her to listen and hear you out. Listening to her feelings without judgment is equally important.



You mentioned that she planned on doing the Tantra training since before you met. Did you ever tell her at some point you were okay with her doing the training? And have you both agreed to be monogamous?



Wish you the best with this, Siar. It's tough and I wish I had something useful to say. I know I would feel hurt if I were in your situation. My love to you, bro.



With Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img]

cosmic Hello SiarHave you told her from the heart how you feel about this? It's not clear to me from your words how deeply you've discussed it, beyond letting her know you disapprove. That could make a difference. For example, if you come at her with judgment and disapproval, she is likely to resist what you're saying. But if you tell her how you feel, in terms of emotion, anger, sadness, feeling hurt, etc. without blaming her, it will be easier for her to listen and hear you out. Listening to her feelings without judgment is equally important.You mentioned that she planned on doing the Tantra training since before you met. Did you ever tell her at some point you were okay with her doing the training? And have you both agreed to be monogamous?Wish you the best with this, Siar. It's tough and I wish I had something useful to say. I know I would feel hurt if I were in your situation. My love to you, bro.With Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img]cosmic Page: 1 2 of 2 Topic