MCStannard



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NewbieActivity: 24Merit: 0 * May 23, 2014, 02:57:53 AM

Last edit: May 06, 2015, 08:04:49 AM by MCStannard #1 *

matt608



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LegendaryActivity: 952Merit: 1000 Re: Market based energy distribution system using Bitcoin and Solar Roadways May 23, 2014, 11:22:14 AM #8



They've got this awesome video about it "solar freakin roadways":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU I'm a massive fan of solar roadways. I contacted them a few months ago about using coloured coins or mastercoin/counterparty to equity-crowd fund the project. They said they looked into it and decided against it. Maybe a more detailed plan on how it could work exactly would be more convincing. Anyway their fundraising campaign has been successful so far.They've got this awesome video about it "solar freakin roadways":

telepatheic



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NewbieActivity: 56Merit: 0 Re: Market based energy distribution system using Bitcoin and Solar Roadways May 23, 2014, 05:31:23 PM #15



The ideal location for solar panels is above car parks in warmer climates (southern states of the USA, southern Europe, Australia, South East Asia, Middle East) like in this image:



http://www.ereleases.com/pic/EEProCarport.jpg It would make far more sense to place the panels above the road rather than under it. Above the road, they would be far cheaper to install, are out of the shade and can be angled towards the sun so far more efficient, keep cars underneath cool, keep the road surface dry and snow free and hence make the road last longer, are easier to maintain and replace without affecting road users, and can still be connected to lights embedded in the road surface or above the road.The ideal location for solar panels is above car parks in warmer climates (southern states of the USA, southern Europe, Australia, South East Asia, Middle East) like in this image:

phillipsjk



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LegendaryActivity: 1008Merit: 1000Let the chips fall where they may. Re: Market based energy distribution system using Bitcoin and Solar Roadways May 23, 2014, 05:46:05 PM #17 Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on May 23, 2014, 05:18:45 PM

Well storing energy is a non-starter. The losses make any project to do so unprofitable. There is also the issue of transmission. If your panel is at point A and someone needs power at point B how are you going to "trade" energy for bitcoins. It involves transmission something you don't have.



If the panels are expecting 4 hours of light per day, they *have to* store energy. NiMH battery patents should be expiring in about 2 years. The heated panels should keep the batteries above 0°C, preventing ice formation on the platinum catalyst. However, I have seen nothing on the solar road website about how the electrical interconnection actually works: not even the operating voltage is disclosed. D sized batteries can store about 10 Amp-Hours. At 48V (40 cells), that would work out to 480Wh (0.48kWh) of power storage per panel.



I am also not convinced that all surfaces will lend themselves to solar tiles. Parking garages would essentially have to be built with the required structural integrity out to conventional materials, with the tiles added on top. This will increase the thickness and cost. As was pointed out, it would be much easier to put the panels on the roof (of say the nearby mall) instead.



Edit: forgot to mention, I don't see how this energy trading with Bitcoin would work either. As far as I can tell, the road owner (whoever it is) would be selling the power. Bitcoin does not even have to enter into it. If the panels are expecting 4 hours of light per day, they *have to* store energy. NiMH battery patents should be expiring in about 2 years. The heated panels should keep the batteries above 0°C, preventing ice formation on the platinum catalyst. However, I have seen nothing on the solar road website about how the electrical interconnection actually works: not even the operating voltage is disclosed. D sized batteries can store about 10 Amp-Hours. At 48V (40 cells), that would work out to 480Wh (0.48kWh) of power storage per panel.I am also not convinced that all surfaces will lend themselves to solar tiles. Parking garages would essentially have to be built with the required structural integrity out to conventional materials, with the tiles added on top. This will increase the thickness and cost. As was pointed out, it would be much easier to put the panels on the roof (of say the nearby mall) instead.Edit: forgot to mention, I don't see how this energy trading with Bitcoin would work either. As far as I can tell, the road owner (whoever it is) would be selling the power. Bitcoin does not even have to enter into it. James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE 0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160

phillipsjk



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LegendaryActivity: 1008Merit: 1000Let the chips fall where they may. Re: Market based energy distribution system from smart property enabled solar panels May 23, 2014, 05:57:10 PM

Last edit: May 23, 2014, 06:20:07 PM by phillipsjk #18 Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on May 23, 2014, 05:47:58 PM Quote from: phillipsjk on May 23, 2014, 05:46:05 PM

If the panels are expecting 4 hours of light per day, they *have to* store energy.

No they don't, the plan is to connect them to the grid. People have solar panels on their roof and yet their lights still work at night without any batteries (google "grid intertie"). Power storage is expensive and inefficient. As soon as you include power storage you nearly double the cost of any system and you throw away 20% to 30% of the power generated right off the top.

No they don't, the plan is to connect them to the grid. People have solar panels on their roof and yet their lights still work at night without any batteries (google "grid intertie"). Power storage is expensive and inefficient. As soon as you include power storage you nearly double the cost of any system and you throw away 20% to 30% of the power generated right off the top.

The guy is talking about producing 3 times the energy needs of the US with these things. Simply tieing into the grid will not work at that scale. Yes power storage is expensive. The batteries cells described cost about $3 each ($120 for a 40 cell battery). (Note: not sure they would have the advertized 20 year life though)



They would probably lose about half the stored power in conversion losses. Since these things have microcontrollers, they can store energy when the grid has excess supply, then sell back to the grid during high energy demand.

The guy is talking about producing 3 times the energy needs of the US with these things. Simply tieing into the grid will not work at that scale. Yes power storage is expensive. Thecells described cost about $3 each ($120 for a 40 cell battery). (Note: not sure they would have the advertized 20 year life though)They would probably lose about half the stored power in conversion losses. Since these things have microcontrollers, they can store energy when the grid has excess supply, then sell back to the grid during high energy demand. James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE 0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160

phillipsjk



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LegendaryActivity: 1008Merit: 1000Let the chips fall where they may. Re: Market based energy distribution system from smart property enabled solar panels May 23, 2014, 06:15:35 PM #19 Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on May 23, 2014, 06:02:25 PM Quote from: phillipsjk on May 23, 2014, 05:57:10 PM The guy is talking about producing 3 times the energy needs of the US with these things. Simply tieing into the grid will not work at that scale. Yes power storage is expensive. The batteries described cost about $3 each ($120 for 40). (Note: not sure they would have the advertized 20 year life though)



They would probably lose about half the stored power in conversion losses. Since these things have microcontrollers, they can store energy when the grid has excess supply, then sell back to the grid during high energy demand.



People can say anything they want. Nobody seriously thinks it would be a good idea for this to replace all other forms of power. Even if it was economical in some scenarios it would never be economical to produce all the power of nation during the day and then need to store power on a scale many magnitudes beyond anything the human race has ever accomplished just to use that power at insane cost and complexity at night. No a smart grid is one which has multiple sources that complement each other.



Not sure what battery you are talking about but there is no $3 battery which can store 600 Wh.

People can say anything they want. Nobody seriously thinks it would be a good idea for this to replace all other forms of power. Even if it was economical in some scenarios it would never be economical to produce all the power of nation during the day and then need to store power on a scale many magnitudes beyond anything the human race has ever accomplished just to use that power at insane cost and complexity at night. No a smart grid is one which has multiple sources that complement each other.Not sure what battery you are talking about but there is no $3 battery which can store 600 Wh.

1 10amp-hour 1.2V cell can store 12Wh (I never said 600Wh). These were available grey-market from china at about $48 for 16 less than 10 years ago. The price may have risen a bit since then. Edit: I edited my earlier post to make it more clear it is the individual cells that cost $3.



I did the math on your 185W figure (for raw solar collection) (times 4 hours) that works out to 740Wh: almost double the 480Wh figure I gave earlier. I was not assuming these devices are responsible for all energy production. They would probably compliment nuclear power nicely (which can't quickly change power output in response to conditions). 1 10amp-hour 1.2V cell can store 12Wh (I never said 600Wh). These were available grey-market from china at about $48 for 16 less than 10 years ago. The price may have risen a bit since then. Edit: I edited my earlier post to make it more clear it is the individual cells that cost $3.I did the math on your 185W figure (for raw solar collection) (times 4 hours) that works out to 740Wh: almost double the 480Wh figure I gave earlier. I was not assuming these devices are responsible for all energy production. They would probably compliment nuclear power nicely (which can't quickly change power output in response to conditions). James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE 0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160