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The improviser/actor (UCB’s Wild Horses) opens up about her struggles with feeling like a fraud, people pleasing, shame, FOMO, feeling undeserving or that her authentic self is just too much for people.

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 409, with my guest, Mary Holland. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. All the social media, uh, you wanna follow us at, it's, uh @mentalpod. And mentalpod.com is the, uh, web site. Tons of stuff on the web site; go check it out. This episode, uh, with Mary was recorded, I wanna say about four months ago maybe? And the reason I mention it is, in our discussion there I talk about, saying, uh, last week I, uh, asked a woman at a Starbucks, uh, out on a date. And (laughs), I didn't want anybody to think that I’m cheating on my girlfriend. So, this was before I met, uh, my current girlfriend. But it’s beautiful episode. And I, uh, hope you enjoy it. My surgery went well. I'm sitting here with, uh, one, my right arm in a sling. And (laughs) it took me about a minute to get my headphones to, to start recording. I do have the use of my left hand, and I'm finding out, uh, just how hard it was to write as a (laughs) child, because try writing with the hand that you never write with. It is, uh, (laughs) it's, you just feel so, uh … stupid! I guess that's the word. It, it sounds a little harsh. But, uh, it's so frustrating. Like, I was trying to take notes for this episode. I was trying to, um, deposit a couple of checks, and I, I, I couldn’t even like (laughs) make notations or sign the check. Now I'm, I'm, you know, convinced the checks are gonna come back, cuz they're gonna be like … you know, a child deposited a check (laughs). "Who is this? Whose signature is this?" Like I said, the surgery went well. I'm in a, I'm in a sling for six weeks. I have to sleep sitting up, which I thought was gonna be worse that it is. But I've been able to fall asleep okay. Only thing I'm a little worried about is my blood pressure got really high. The, uh, anesthesiologist was like, "Your blood pressure is at 166." And it's always been around 120. He said, "Well, it might have been the pain." But I went in for my post-op, uh, today, where they removed the bandage. And, um, and my blood pressure was, like 158/80, which is not good. So (laughs) now I go back to the doctor for this. And I'm so afraid they're gonna tell me that I have to change some part of my life that I really love. And I gotta, you know, I gotta surrender to what is. The other thing I wanted to talk about before this episode is, um … A friend of mine, uh, passed away about, uh, about two and a half weeks ago. And, she was really, really important part of my life. And I just kinda wanted to, um, pay tribute to her, because she had some important impact on my growth, uh, as a person. And, and honestly, the things I learned from her helped me put this podcast together, to have anything to say, to have anything to share on this podcast. And I, her name was Lisa. And, she was, um, what you would call non-binary. She identified as a lesbian, but sometimes she would present as a male and go by the name of Nick. And she was just the gentlest soul, you know. At her memorial service, that's what everybody kept saying, was just talking about how helpful she was, how gentle she was. And she, I just wanted to share some, some moments, um, that I had with her. A lot of people, you know, we, we, we think that we're not going to really affect anybody else's life in a positive way. Or that after we're gone, we'll be forgotten. And at her memorial service, I was just thinking about all the moments that I had with her, uh, that I will never forget. And, I thought, "You know, that's something I should share on the podcast," because a deep fear that I have is that, um, my life will be forgettable. And intellectually I understand that that is probably not the case, but it's an emotional feeling of being abandoned or left behind or not being enough. And one of the things … early on, because I asked (clears throat) … I was in a meeting one night, and Lisa was sharing about her relationship with her higher power. And, and she became moved to tears talking about it. And, I was new to the program at that point. And, this particular support group was kind of a focus on fear of intimacy and intimacy issues. And … and … I had never really had a female figure in my life that had the gentleness that she had. And, I asked her if she would help me in the program. And her plate was pretty full, because she was helping a lot of people at that point. And, um … as she was thinking about it, you know, I … I don't remember if I said, you know, please or what. But she decided, uh, to take on one more person to, to help with the program. And we began meeting regularly. And the first thing that she noticed was how mean I was to myself. And it kinda caught me by surprise, because I thought, if anything, I needed to be harder on myself. And, she had me start saying, every morning—and it was so cheesy when she said it. I was like are you fucking kidding me? She started having me say, look in the mirror, and say (laughs), "I have enough, I do enough, I am enough." And I did that for a couple of years, and it didn’t work (laughs). You know, it did. It did work. It, it's, it helped begin to crack open the part of me that feels like I'm broken and different and that you're gonna reject me so I might as well isolate myself, because I'm beyond hope. And, she was the first person that put out the concept to me, that I don't have to do anything to be lovable. Human beings just are worthy of love, just by existing. And that kind of blew my mind, because I had always felt like, "Well, if I don’t do esteemable acts, then, you know, there goes my worthiness." And … this is gonna sound like a completely different … story, but it pertains. And I'll circle back to the thing with Lisa. But speaking of identifying who we are by what we do and what we have. I came across a YouTube video of a woman who tried to intervene on behalf of her child. She'd been pulled over. And, um, and she got in the face of the policeman and demanding to know, you know, "Do you know who I am. You know, I'm the commissioner for the port authority." And, you know, kind of throwing her weight around. And … it, I found my-, myself getting really angry at her, like, you know, "You are the problem." That, "You are, people like you are the source of all that's wrong in our society." And when I find myself getting angry, that's usually an opportunity for me to stop and self-reflect and go, "What is it that's, that's going on underneath this?" Not to excuse this woman's behavior, but to say why does it bring up rage in me. And, as I thought about it, I thought … you know, we all have our sicknesses. You know, I've have my sicknesses with, um, uh … drugs and alcohol and, um, being promiscuous and, uh, not respecting people's boundaries, um, uh, making people the butt of cruel jokes, um, and on and on and on and on. And I thought … this, this woman's sickness is that she is in the cult of "You are what you have or what you do." She began, you know, mentioning that these children went to Yale. And, you know, talking about how many homes she has. And it started to make me sad, because I thought, "She is in a prison of her own making. And of course she's incredibly threatened by this policeman not kowtowing to her because that's threatening. That's an existential threat to her, because if he doesn't tear up this ticket, then in her mind, that means that she's not as powerful as she feels she is. And then who is she without her wealth and power?" And you could see that it was an existential threat to this woman. I mean, she was livid. And the other thing I was thinking about as I was watching this—and, and by the way, there was a news piece shortly after this that this was made public and she was forced to resign. And, um, the other thing I thought as I was watching this was … no black person would ever be able to talk to a police officer the way this woman was. She was in their face. You know, she was, you know, cursing them out. She wasn't listening to them. She was invading their space. And I thought, "Five seconds into this, if this were a person of color, they would be on the ground in handcuffs or shot." And this whole piece was like a microcosm of so many things that are going on … in our society today. And … Lisa—circling back to Lisa—was one of the people that helped me disidentify from the cult of "You are what you have and what you do." And some other moments that I, I shared with her, um … A really, really, important moment in my recovery, in learning how to be vulnerable—because she was SUCH a great example of vulnerability—we were in a meeting and she had shared about a relative who had been inappropriate with her. And it brought up some memories in my mind of being a child and having experienced that, um, from my mother. And I had never really given weight to it. But there was something about … that day, where I suddenly saw it … with clarity. And the sadness just came over me. And I didn't want anybody to see me cry, so I kinda had my head down. And, when the meeting was over, I really wanted to just go up and hu-, and just hug somebody. Just have somebody hug me and just cry on their shoulder. And another part of me just wanted to get the fuck outta there because I was embarrassed. And as I was contemplating what to do, she came walking up to me. And she immediately saw, you know, my eyes were red. And she said, "Are you okay?" And I said, "No, I'm not." And, she hugged me. And I cried. It was probably one of the most cathartic cries that I've ever had. I think it was the first time I really, REALLY began to feel the grief, um, that I didn't allow myself to feel when I was, uh, when I was a kid. And, she stayed there the whole time. She didn't pull away, she didn't pat me on the back. And, it, I didn't care that, if anybody was looking, um, because it felt so good and so safe and so comforting and nurturing. And, I, I must have cried for probably three or four minutes. And I felt better afterwards. And it was beginning of me … considering being kind to myself. Considering giving weight to things that happened to me, NOT to punish people who had hurt me, but to open the door to begin to process the feelings that I had buried. Cuz those feelings, man, they dictate our addictions, our sick behaviors, you know, our isolation, you name it. They are driving the bus, if we don't process those things. Some other memories I have of Lisa was, she was the worst joke teller, maybe ever. She loved a good joke. She would laugh at the lamest jokes, and then she would try to retell it, and she would fuck it up. She was the worst party giver. She had a birthday party one time that was hands-down the most poorly organized, (laughs) couldn’t wait to get the fuck outta there, party I'd ever had. And … you know, it, it, there's so many things I smile about when I think of her. And, she was the first person who wasn’t, whose gender wasn’t binary that I got really close to. And … There were so many experiences that I had with her. You know, when I shared some of the stuff from my past, I shared some of my, my story of sexualizing and objectifying women. And, another thing that she opened my mind to was, you know, we were discussing how I had the effect that I probably had on these women and the hurt that I had caused them. And the lasting damage that was probably there. She said, "And who else do you think this affected?" And I … thought, "Well, that, that's it." And she said, "This also affects other men, because she's gonna be less trusting of a man. It's gonna be harder for her next partner to get close to her." And that's … and she didn't do any of this to shame me. She did it to open my mind so that I could hopefully grow as a person. And … I believe in a higher power, and I really believe that … she was the channel for … love from my higher power. And for growth. And … in that service for her, you could just see … ugh, I hate this phrase, but you could see her spirit in that room. I feel her spirit. Sometimes now, when I'm driving in the car, I'll just … say, "Hi, Lisa." And I'll smile, because, you know, even if there is no afterlife, that energy that she helped bring into my life to help me change, to help me do this podcast, she was a big, big part of that. And … the way that the last few years of her life went were not good. She had a lot of burdens to carry, a lot of mental health issues. She went off her meds. Had a, um, a … episode of psychosis, um, that was, was dealt with in a very bad way by the legal system when it really should have been a mental health system issue. And, I know it really tested her faith. And the last time I saw her in person was I visited her in, in jail. She was awaiting trial. And, she just seemed so defeated. And, I don't know why people experience things like that. But that doesn’t take away my belief that there's something beautiful in the universe that can flow between us when we get vulnerable and honest and try to be helpful with each other. And I guess we don't need to know. We don't get to, to know, you know, in our lifetime. I suppose if we knew everything, and there was no pain, then, uh … there would probably be no interesting art, and victories wouldn’t feel as good. And joy wouldn’t feel as good. I could use a little more joy. I'm gonna be honest, if anybody up there's listening. Bring me a little more joy. Maybe a couple, a couple less meds; that would be nice. Five meds, that's a little … that's a little fuck you, you know. Anyway … (laughs) Those are just some … moments from my relationship with her that I wanted to share because we can have an impact on people's lives. And … we never know that, sometimes, an offhand comment that we make may stick with somebody for the rest of their lives, you know. Saying something nice about them, something maybe that they never heard in their life. Now I feel like I should, uh, end on some, some type of joke (laughs). I'm feeling too serious right now. Let's see if I have a happy moment that I can read; hold on. (Pauses)

[00:21:06] This is a happen moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "The World's Shoulders." And she writes, "Yesterday, two and a half years after my daughter's attempted suicide, I finally let go and began to breathe again. My therapist made me hold a cushion. My BPD daughter won't let me hug her much. And I had to tell the cushion all I wanted to say to my daughter. The release was immense. And what did I say? I begged her not to leave me. Please don't die, please let me help you. I want to hold you forever until you feel well. It does not sound like a happy moment, but the relief I feel today is enormous. Like I've been holding my breath all this time, and I can finally let go. And I'll be better at helping her now that I've expressed how I feel to that cushion. Therapy takes a long time, but stick with it. That's what I want to say."

Intro

[00:23:05] Paul: I'm here with Mary Holland, who is a hilarious improviser. Partner of, uh, a guy that I love named Matt Newell (sp?) And, uh, I saw you, what is it, about a month ago, the improv group you're in called Wild Horses. You guys perform Saturday nights at UCB Theater. And it's you, Erin Whitehead, Lauren Lapkus, and Stephanie …

Mary: Stephanie Allynne.

Paul: Stephanie Allynne, who is the wife of Tig Notaro?

Mary: That's right.

Paul: You guys were so fucking funny—

Mary: Thank you!

Paul: —and I, watching you guys, I was like, "I want her as a guest." And so—

Mary: Oh, thanks!

Paul: —she wasn't available, but you were. And—

Mary: Oh, oh … kay.

Paul: Yeah, god, I shouldn’t have said that out loud. No, I was watching you—

Mary: That, but that's, um … No, that's fine (laughs).

Paul: As I was watching you guys, I was like, I, I just thought you would be a great guest, because you have this, uh, I dunno, this kind of … vulnerability, uh, to you, and, uh … obviously sense of humor. But because you're a comedian, something has to be fucked up. Something has to be rotten in Denmark.

Mary: (Laughs). Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think … it's, as I've gotten older, I think for a long time, when I was growing up and even as a teenager, I was, I was kind of an angry teenager. Not, not too much in that direction, but I'd, I'd never really felt like there, there was anything fucked up really. I mean, I had fights with my parents and with my siblings and stuff, but never felt that I like had that, uh, uh, this deeper darkness happening. But then, as I've gotten older, it's like, "Oh! Oh! It's very much there (laughs)."

Paul: Oh yeah?

Mary: Like I've become more and more aware of it as I'm getting older and, um, getting, I guess getting to know myself a little bit better.

Paul: And, do you feel like that's a good thing?

Mary: I—

Paul: Or a bittersweet thing?

Mary: It's bittersweet, I guess. I mean, I think … my darkness or the, the, um … the darker thoughts I have are, I think that … when I wade into those waters and I let myself sink into that, the emotions that come with that, I think, it feels, it doesn’t feel good to do, but it also feels good to do. Like I, I, I enjoy wallowing (laughs), I guess is what I'm saying.

Paul: There's a certain familiar comfort, like a stinky blanket.

Mary: Yeah. Yes (laughs). Yes, it's a lot like a stinky blanket. And, and I think that that gives me, uh, I'm, I'm appreciative of the, of the depth that it does give me. I would prefer to be a more, more layered, complicated person than to just be happy all the time, which I, I think I can very easily present that. That I'm, I'm good and happy. And I, I am for the most part. But there's a … The, the waters run deep, I think. And maybe a bit deeper than people would think.

Paul: Well, can you elaborate? Whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Mary: Yeah, um … I can … Well, like you sort of mention at the beginning, uh, about … like myself, that's something I really struggle with. I don’t know if it's on the level of, I feel like I've been in depressive states. Like I, I've never, I don’t think, coped with depression for, um, a long, or an extended period of time. It's more like, there will, every now and then I'll just like hit a patch, where I'm just, I'm kind of consumed with these thoughts of, I'm nothing, I, I don’t deserve anything. Like that is a mantra that will repeat in my head. Like I'm, not that I don't deserve anything. I … and I, I kind of go into this … this existential like … Who do I think I am? Like I'm in … how do people like look at me and talk to me? Like, how am I in the world (laughs), I guess is like, it just kind of very quickly spirals into, um … me thinking I'm really not worth anything. And, and the, and pe-, when people … I, I feel like I'm (laughs) fooling people or like I'm a fraud or something—

Paul: Oh my god, that is so common—

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: It's one of the most common things that people say. Not only personally, but professionally. People in graduate, uh, school, people with jobs that other people envy, they talk about feeling like a fraud. And, I think feeling invisible, or if we are seen, like they don't have all the facts.

Mary: Right, right, exactly—

Paul: If people that liked me or loved had all the facts, they would second guess, or their standards are just so fucking low.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I, also like I've been having this thought recently, which is … I've been looking at my past, my past relationships, specifically friendships. And, I've had the thought recently of, "Oh, I think I'm actually … a bad friend." I think I … I … I think I I'm a good friend in a lot of ways, but the, the thing I'm, I guess I've been struggling with recently is like I look back at my past friendships. So many of them, like I've a few friends that I've had since I was 15 or 16. My childhood friends were more like acquaintances now. Like I don’t really, that we don’t see each other that much, we don’t talk that often, you know. And then, my close friends in college are no longer my close, or not as close as like we once were. And I know that it's natural for people to grow and change and, you know, some rela-, some friendships like, you, you drift apart from people, and that's normal. But, but I've been looking at it and I'm thinking, "Oh, I haven’t maintained, except for maybe the exception of like, with the exception of two or three people, I haven’t maintained a long-term friendship with somebody." Like I feel like I, as I've changed, I let friendships just fall by the wayside. I don’t know how true that is, or if that’s my perception of it. Bu that plays into the fraud thing as well (laughs).

Paul: I'm gonna take a wild guess that you can be a bit of a people pleaser.

Mary: No (both laugh)! No, that's completely wrong. Yes, that's very true (laughs).

Paul: And … I also get the, the sense that there was somebody in your family that you felt that you had to, uh, be something for to keep the family running smoothly.

Mary: You know, it's so fascinating that you bring that up. I have never thought about that, but, um, I recently started going to couple's therapy with Matt. And, uh, it's, it's been such a great experience for both of us. But that was a thing that has come up when we've been talking about how we deal with conflict and what our pasts are and all that. That thing that the therapist brought up. And I was like, I never considered that I played that role. But then I can, I can really see how I did. Like I think that that is very accurate of what … I'm, I'm the youngest of three. And, um, my parents, uh, they're both physicians and, you know, worked long hours. And, um, there was a lot of, I think in every family that, with, with even just one child, not … even more so with multiple children, but the stress of the daily household everything running, I think, got to … affected my parents in different ways. And, I don’t know if it had to do with me being the youngest or if it was … just what I saw my role as. But I, I, I was like, I need, I need to go, I need to do something or say something that's gonna make this not stressful or like, because I, I saw how the stress affected … them—

Paul: And did you feel like then your needs would be an added burden, and so if, if you can just be a—

Mary: Good and perfect (laughs)—

Paul: Yes. If you can be a balm rather than a thorn, uh—

Mary: Yeah, I think so—

Paul: —everything will be okay and you'll be loved?

Mary: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think so. And, and I … I think, too, that I was very emotional as a kid. Like I, I, I, had tantrums and I was, I think I was demanding emotionally. I, um … But … yeah. So I, I don’t think I necessarily shoved everything aside in the service of my parents or other people. But, I, there are specific instances I can remember of me being like, seeing my mother like stressed to the point of tears. And feeling like it's my job to like, I can, I ca-, what can I do to fix it, and what can I …

Paul: Where do you think that comes from?

Mary: (Sighs) I guess … I don't know. I, I'm just starting to like … be aware of that. And, and see how that's like playing into all my other relationships currently. Or as a, as an adult, um … And I don't know. I don’t know what the root of it is. Or like, when—

Paul: Cuz I'm, I'm, I'm the exact same way. And, um … I don’t know. Is it a sensitivity? I … I don’t know, but I remember watching—I'm the youngest, but only two kids. But I remember watching conflict that I wasn’t involved in, but it being AGONIZING to me. And feeling like I had to do so-, it's like I could FEEL either the, the … you know, if it was public, it was just, ugh, I just wanted to throw a big blanket over it, or run away, or something. And, it wasn’t anything out of the ordinary, but it just, it was unbearable—

Mary: And the sensitivity, I, that makes, yeah. That makes sense. Cuz I'm very sensitive (laughs). I'm really sensitive. And, um, so, I would believe that the, you're just keenly aware of other people's feeling and not wanting any—Like, I, I remember it used to upset—it still does—upset me so much, to think about my parents being sad or being … being hurt by … Like when my, my brother, who's older, was in his teenage years and there were fights, and I wasn’t quite in my teens yet. And I would see the fights that would happen and how it affected my parents, like it broke my heart. Like it was like … just like you were saying, like I … do anything I can to … yeah. Really me (laughs).

Paul: Did you feel like things, like it was going to destroy something? That, like … something would be lost forever?

Mary: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: I think there was always that feeling in me, like this is going to wreck something going forward. That this isn't just a self-contained moment that people have that they're gonna get through. It felt like an existential threat.

Mary: Which in … how that has affected how I deal with conflict is when, when I do something wrong in the relationship and, um, either romantically or with a friend and, and they're like, "Hey, that hurt my feelings when you did that." I can't just be like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn’t intend that and I'll do better," and just move on. I cannot. I have to go into a room (laughs), turn off all the lights, sit on the floor in the corner, and beat myself up for like, for hours.

Paul: You are the female me.

Mary: REALLY?!

Paul: Oh yeah.

Mary: That's fascinating.

Paul: Because I take it as, I didn’t do something wrong; I AM wrong—

Mary: Yes. ME, TOO! Me, too—

Paul: And that's, there, they say that that is the difference between guilt, like healthy, brief guilt, and, you know, self-reflecting, going, "Okay, I'm not gonna do that again," and shame. Toxic shame.

Mary: Yes, which I think I am cloaked in.

Paul: Where do you think that comes from? Were you, did you have an experience as a child that, where you felt ashamed or it was, something was traumatic or …

Mary: I think I, I wa-, I would be curious like if I were to go under hypnosis or something, if something, if I've buried something in there. Cuz I can think of instances where I was told you're too sensitive or you're too … Or like, uh, you're … you shouldn’t have this emotional react-, like … small moments of very light shaming (laughs). But, as for like a specific big event, one doesn’t come to mind immediately.

Paul: Well, you know, as you say that stuff, that, there doesn’t need to be a big event if there are moments like that—from what I understand; I'm not a therapist, but I was on cable TV and I cooked some DELICIOUS (unintelligible) paired with movies. There … the negating of one's own feelings in childhood can set up a, a, it can set the stage for depression, anxiety, self-loathing. I mean, because if you think about it, self-doubt … and self-loathing short-circuits any kind of healthy, neural pathway. So it, it's almost it, instead of the … you know, the impulse going to the front part of the brain where we can process things with some objectivity, it goes to the fight or flight part of the brain where, like my very—

Mary: It's life or death.

Paul: It's life of death, even though we intellectually know it, our central nervous system is reacting as if, this is fucking awful!

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: Talk about what it feels like in your, in your body and, and in your head in, in that moment when … when shame comes up. Any, any examples you can think of would be, would be great.

Mary: The visuals that I always have with it … since I started understanding that shame is the emotion I'm feeling—I don’t think I understood that that, that was what that feeling was. I just knew that it was … it was very murky and very dark. And I couldn’t, it was this sadness that was just deeper than just sadness. It was like … uh, ugh! It was like … it felt like I was being … the, the, the visual I have with it is of this like very, very tall creature with a long, long, long black cloak that comes up behind me and just puts the cloak around me. And I'm just like, I'm cut off. Like it's, I'm isolated and I just like, I see myself just putting my head down and like dripping in, covered, completely consumed in like this dark … blackness.

Paul: Wow!

Mary: (Laughs) So that's what it feels like. And (both laugh)… yeah.

Paul: Wow.

Mary: And I can't emerge from it. Like, like you said, even knowing intellectually that's what's happening, I can't, I don’t, I don’t have the tools yet to combat that or, or emerge from it. I don’t know how to navigate it. Like it's just so … isolating.

Paul: From what I've heard therapists talk about, and from what I've read, there's a couple of things that might help with that. One is cognitive behavioral therapy. And the other is, um, stuff where you process, uh, trauma, even if the event itself wasn’t trauma, the fact that we perceive it as traumatic is what's important, and they call that, um, they, they, the, the term for it is big "T" and little "T" trauma. And so, little "T" traumas would be, um, frequent occurrences where you just feel like, "Oh, the mistake I made is shameful." Or … having to stuff your feelings because it wasn’t, uh, a good time to do it. Or, the family didn’t want to hear what it was that you were, you were feeling. Those things are traumatic, because I think that little kid brain needs to process it and needs to know that those feelings are normal and okay—

Mary: And valid.

Paul: —and valid! And this, that everybody feels those things. But, when we think we're the only one feelings those things … and this isn't to demonize your, your parents. This is just, this happens a TON. And so, EMDR is a great way to process, um, feelings of trauma and, um, somatic therapy is another way or somatic experiencing is another way to release trauma from the body. There's a, there's a ton of different ways to, uh, to do it But do you find yourself physically tensing up a lot? Or is that—

Mary: Yeah. No, yeah. I think that does. Or, I get very languid. I sort of just sink into … into, I become like … liquidy. Like just kind of a puddle.

Paul: With like no energy?

Mary: No energy.

Paul: Oh, okay.

Mary: Or kind of no energy. I have enough energy to really beat myself up (laughs).

Paul: That's nice, you have that reserve tank.

Mary: Yeah (laughs). Yeah. But, uh, but actually, now that, when you—

Paul: So it's not relaxation in that moment necessarily.

Mary: No, no, no. It's just kind of a, sort of … uh … a like—

Paul: Checked out?

Mary: Yeah. Or, just sinking into the, just sinking into it. Like not necessarily, not apathetic, but just kind of surrendering the … the flood of what's happening.

Paul: I see.

Mary: When you, I, I, do, I can think of a trauma, actually, where I think maybe this does come from (laughs). I tell it sometimes because it's like, I tell it as like a funny story, cuz it is kind of funny. But it's also, I also, I think that is definitely an instance I can point to where this might have started taking hold. And it was when, um, my parents were hosting a Super Bowl party, and they had a bunch of their friends over, and their friends' kids came over. And, um, my dad had this TV room thing, where he had set up a projector. And it was like a cool room … you felt like you were in a movie theater. And so they were in there watching the football game. The door closed, and the kids were out like playing in this, um, our like playroom basement, playroom thing, um, which was just outside the door. So, we were, I was like six; my brother was 10. My sister was eight. And then our friends are around that same age. And, my, I, I don’t remember what it was specifically, something upset me. Something … my brother did upset me, and I started crying. And, uh, I don’t remember what my sister did this whole thing; I just remember my brother. I started crying, I was upset, and … I … my brother was like kind of showing off with his friends, and was, they were laughing at me. And it sort of, that sort of make me more upset. And I started to get like … really kind of hysterical. And … my sister, I think, was like, "Go get mom (laughs)! She's, she's freaking out (laughs)!" And, my brother, I saw him go over to the door, where, that led into that TV room. He opened it and he said, "Mom, Dad, it's that time of the month again." And I didn't, I didn’t know what that meant; I was a six-year-old (laughs). But I interpreted it to mean, "Here she goes. She's doing her monthly, you know, breakdown or whatever. She does this every month. She like has a hissy fit, blah, blah, blah." It was so dismissive of how upset I was and, and in the fact, when he was like, "It's that time of the month," I was like, "Oh my god! Do they talk about this? Like, this happens a lot?" You know, like that's kind of the, the thoughts that I was having. I got so mad, I felt so out of control, that I threw up (laughs). Like I—

Paul: Wow, that's trauma! That is trauma! I mean, fuck! That's … In that moment, as I'm imagining what it is like to be that kid, the, the thought is, "Oh, I'm different. And I am a burden."

Mary: Right. Right. Yeah.

Paul: Like there's something broken in me.

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: When in reality, you're this beautifully, sensitive kid. I mean, sensitivity is such an awesome thing to have. But so many of us run into, as we grow up, being shamed for the very thing that can make the world better.

Mary: Too sensitive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I've … There are instances when I'm like, "Oh I wish I wasn’t so sensi-." I'm, for the most part, I am grateful that I am. I think it's, I'm happy to be feeling so much, but, but also I think I really, I, it leads to me reading into situations (laughs) and kind of interpreting, seeing meanings that aren’t necessarily there. But, yeah, in that instance, it was very much, uh—And I ha-, when I have nightmares, the nightmares that scare me the most …

Paul: Are about the Super Bowl.

Mary: Are about the Super Bowl. Or about like, you know, who's gonna win. You know what I mean? It's (laughs) … Or about being dismissed. Like having, being very upset and being sort of like, "Here we go." Some, like, I ha-, with Matt, when I've had nightmares … about him or about our relationship, it's that he no longer has any kind of … um … acceptance or love of my emotions or support of them. He's just like—

Paul: So, you’ve drained him, with your, with who you are.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: Who you are is too much. You occupy too much space in this world. That's a common one that I hear people, people say. Is, "I just feel like I’m, I'm, you know, taking up room—"

Mary: Too much room.

Paul: "I'm too much. I'm just too much."

Mary: Yeah. Totally. That's a—

Paul: What an awful feeling!

Mary: —thought I've had in my head, too.

Paul: As cheesy as this sounds, if you could get in a time machine and adult you go talk to six-year-old you in that moment, what would you say?

Mary: (Sighs)

Paul: Or do?

Mary: I think I would just … ugh, this is gonna make me cry (laughs). I think I would, um … kind of kneel down and get on her level and, and just hug her and tell her it's okay. (Pauses) Yeah. I think someone, I think that's what I needed and I think, I, because my brother announced it like that, my parents didn't know the severity of the situation or how upset I was. So I didn’t get that in that moment. And then I threw up, and that was (laughs) crazy. I don’t remember how it was dealt with afterwards. But … yeah, I think about like just … being enveloped. And, and, yeah, and I think of like, be upset, too, and it’s very upsetting what happened. The validation of, of, that I'm not crazy (laughs) for being so mad or sad. Yeah. Yeah. And I think about—I don’t, I don’t have kids, and I don’t know if I'm going to have them, but I think about that a lot, where I'm like, ugh, the, the one thing I would do …or be sure to do is … like hear what they're feeling and tell them it's okay. Sorry (cries).

Paul: No, this is the shit that we need to hear that somebody else is feeling, cuz … at least, for me, it's so helpful to know that other people feel, as shitty as it is, that they have had moments like that.

Mary: And I don’t know how you don’t, how you … as a parent, how you can avoid it. Like, it's just gonna happen.

Paul: And this, this is not to assign blame to parents. They, I can't imagine how hard it is, and there, you know, there's certainly been times on the podcast when, you know, I take something a parent did to, to task or get on my soapbox about it. But for the most part, they're fucking human beings. And many of them are emotionally stunted, cuz they weren’t given the tools they needed as, as kids. And they're worried about the fucking mortgage or some, some other thing. What do you think little you would have said to … you?

Mary: At that time or—

Paul: Yeah.

Mary: Yeah. Oh. (Pauses)

Paul: Or how do you think she would have reacted?

Mary: Man. Ah. I'd hope that little me would rush to the side of someone who's having a, an emotional experience like that. And I … I think—

Paul: I mean when, when the adult you is holding her.

Mary: Oh, I see.

Paul: But I'd be interested to hear the other one as well.

Mary: (Laughs) If I saw myself, I'd probably just be staring at myself. Ugh, I think, I think I would … I would, uh, I would just sink right into that hug. I … I would like, be purring. Like I'd just be like, "Oh, good. I'm safe. I'm …" Like my mom, I used to, I was very sick as a, as … a baby/toddler, so my mom had to stay awake with me a lot. My medicine would keep me up at weird hours, and she'd have to stay awake with me. And there's this rocking chair in my room. And she would, she would like put me on her lap, and she would just rock. Just hold me and rock. And it was so soothing. Like I, I'm sure I fell asleep quickly. But I, I just remember sitting there and just like, rocking back and forth and just looking at the ceiling or whatever and just being so calm and peaceful. And I think that's probably what my little self would have done in that moment. If I had been, you know, comforted in that way. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes I just need to be … held (laughs).

Paul: The exact same way.

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: Exact same way. Yeah, there's times I just want to lay my head in someone's lap and just have them stroke my head and say nice (laughs) things. And it feels (laughs), as a man, so self-conscious to say that out loud. But there is still the little boy in me that, um, is, is afraid and feels like too much and wrong and bad and, um … There was a, a moment—and this is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of somatic experiencing—but there was a moment, um, a couple of sessions back where I was reliving a trauma that I had experienced, and I got to say what it was I wanted to say in that moment. And I, I felt it with my whole body, like my body was convulsing. And, and … and I pled with the, the person, "Please help me." And, and she was, you know, squeezing my arm and saying, "I'm here. You're safe. I'm here. You're safe." And there's a part of my brain, the whole time, that's like, "This is weird. You are so lame." But there's another part of me that wants to heal, that was giving into it, and, and leaning into the sad and the fear to let that, that stuff out. And I think, when we shove that down, it a-, it affects us. It's gonna come out as compulsive behavior or sadness or withdrawing or anger or god knows what, what else.

Mary: Right.

Paul: You mention being angry as a, as a teenager.

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. Can, was there anything else, more that you wanted to share?

Mary: No. No. I, that, that felt, yeah. No, I think that that … that is, that mo-, yeah. How, what we discussed there, that felt like, very much …

Paul: And we can get that as adults. That's a thing to remember, and why it's so important to have a good support group. And to communicate with our partner, is so we can ask—

Mary: Totally!

Paul: —for those things. Because those are not weird. Those are not too much. Those are like super human and normal, and we're social beings. Yeah.

Mary: Right. Right.

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[00:57:04] Mary: Yeah, as a, as a teenager, I … I fought … It's interesting, I think I had a, a kind of like … I had like a mini-rebellious streak. Not really, cuz my brother really had one. And like I said, seeing the, him and how hurt my parents were when he fought with them. And he, um … disobeyed is not the word I'm thinking of, but was like … didn’t …

Paul: Was indifferent?

Mary: Yeah, or like didn’t like kind of didn’t play by the rules and was dismissive of their rules or whatever. I saw how that affected my parents, and it really, it made me so sad when my parents were so sad. So I feel like when I got into my teenage and I had my own kind of like, "No one gets me (laughs)!" or whatever, it, it wasn't, it, I was sort of had one foot in both worlds, where I was like, I like had all these emotions and these, all these desires to be popular and be liked and be desired, you know … by my peers and, you know the social circle I was in. But then at the same time … So I would like lash out at my mom or I'd, I'd say, "I hate you!" or whatever. And then, immediately (laughs), a few hours I'd be like, "I'm sorry. I love you so much (laughs)." Like I, I didn’t fully lean into the, the angst of it.

Paul: It's so funny, in that, in that moment, when we're lashing out, what we really want is, "Can I have a hug?" You know, "Can I tell you that I am afraid and I feel like a piece of shit?" But, it's, that's not even on our radar.

Mary: Not even. No. And I think my mom would have really … listened. Like I, I … I … I, I think some of the little traumas I had as a kid and a teenager were when I, when I was kind of sad about something, and my mom didn’t have time to like deal with it or, or … was annoyed about something else. Like I … whatever I was going through was not important at that time. But I think I, I feel like she wanted … would have wanted me to come and be like, "I feel like shit (laughs)."

Paul: Yeah. She would have, she would have wanted to know. And that's, that's, again, why I stress, this is not about assigning blame to a parent. It's just, you know, kids are gonna fall, have moments of falling through cracks … in, in childhood. But, um, I think it's how we come back together after those moments that can strengthen relationships and, and give us those tools and rewire that part of our brain that feels like, "I'm going to be left behind." When I feel like I'm going to be left out or left behind, my central nervous system fucking freaks out, and I feel like I'm gonna start to cry, and I feel rage in my, my head feels like it could reheat coffee. You know, it's just …

Mary: Yes. I, I get the feeling that my blood is boiling. And it's, it's not, um, I wouldn’t say it's like … there must be anger in there. But it's like, it's in my veins. It’s like this, this like … ugh! This like very electric feeling in my veins of like, the say, I have the same exact fears of being left behind or left out or like … or not being … liked or someone else being liked more. I feel like I'm growing out of that (laughs) a little bit more, but as a teenager it was like, "Huh?! I, oh god! This, the, the, they like this person and they can't like me anymore (laughs)."

Paul: That's there's only enough to, love to go around in the world.

Mary: Yes. In the world, yeah.

Paul: Yeah. I used to think that if I wasn’t the funniest person in the room in any given moment, that I would fail in my profession. And thank GOD at a certain point, I realized, you know, everybody isn't everybody's cup of tea.

Mary: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And how freeing that is when you, when, when it really, that sinks in. Cuz you can know that logically, but it takes so much practice, to educate yourself about that.

Paul: And then you can be there for other people, and be happy for them instead of feeling like … And you know what? There was a guy, in, in my support group. And here's why support groups are so awesome. This guy had only been coming for maybe three weeks, and he shared in a meeting one time. He said, he was talking about one of those moments when he couldn’t be happy for his friend. And then he had an epiphany; he said, "It suddenly occurred to me that your … victory is not my loss." And something … that just stuck with me to this day. I can't always get there, but it's so important to remember, remember that, that. And I wonder if that comes from experiencing, um … a childhood where we felt like we were too much, you know, and it was gonna run out by the time we needed something. I dunno.

Mary: I don't know either. Yeah. Ugh! I … Do you get FOMO … the fear of mi-. I get is so bad.

Paul: Oh! Oh … yes.

Mary: I get it so bad.

Paul: Yes. I even, uh, have a, a word for it when it happens on Facebook: getting Facefucked. Like if you (laughs), if, if you see somebody had a party and you didn’t get invited to it, you got Facefucked.

Mary: Yeah, you got Facefucked!

Paul: It, yes. It is—and yet, there's a part of me that doesn’t want to participate, doesn’t want to be, that wants to control a social situation so I'm not uncomfortable. It's, it's, (laughs) I realized about a month or so ago that what I really want is to be loved by every single person, but have them leave me alone until I decide I wanna talk and then have then drop everything they're doing.

Mary: (Laughs) Which is reasonable.

Paul: I think it's extremely reasonable (laughs). And it's so childish, but—

Mary: It is childish. Yeah.

Paul: It's, it's—

Mary: I total relate to that.

Paul: Do you, do you think that comes from us having social anxiety and wanting to try to control that and, and going back and forth between being needy and isolating, and, and trying to have them both?

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very, yeah. I think so. I, I really like, parties are so hard … for me. I do not … I don’t go to a lot of them. I … when I do go, I'm like, "Okay! Just have fun! Just have fun! Just have fun!" (Laughs) But the, the anxious part of me is, I wanna make sure that I'm, that you like me and you're having a good time with me, and so I cannot relax in this environment because I have, I need to control this. I need to control how I'm … perceived and if you enjoy me. And so I can't just relax and enjoy you (laughs). Enjoy myself—

Paul: Who do I need to be so you don't talk bad about me when this small talk is over? (Laughs) Yes. Small talk to me—

Mary: Oh my god!

Paul: —is so draining and—

Mary: Same.

Paul: —and, and just, I, so much tension, it's, like somebody might as well say, "I smell smoke. Do you smell smoke?"—

Mary: It's wrenching to me—

Paul: It's, that's what I, that's what I feel like. But if we start having a conversation like you and I are having, I suddenly relax, cuz it's, it's like, I, I, I don’t know.

Mary: I don’t know either—

Paul: It like suddenly all the windows are open and there are escape routes. I don't feel trapped.

Mary: I also have been noticing this thing recently, where I'm like, why don't I want to like … I want to be anonymous in … public. Unless, unless I'm choosing to have … like if I'm meeting a friend for coffee, then I'm excited to do that, and … that's a social situation (laughs), and I'm entering into it. But if … if I'm just like out in the world and I, I'm like alone but in public, I love that. But if someone, if a stranger starts talking to me, ugh! Nothing makes me want to run away … faster—

Paul: And it doesn’t depend on the vibe of the stranger?

Mary: No. I just don’t. I, I like … ugh! Even if, even if some-, if I'm, if, if someone, like a, uh, at a restaurant and the, the server is, is like engaging with me a little bit, I'll fight against that. Like I, not that I, I don't wanna be rude of course … uh, but I guess in my head, I'm like, "I'm not prepared to have this be a social interaction."

Paul: Oh! Because you, because you haven’t mapped it out?

Mary: Yeah, or something like that.

Paul: It's … you don't have home field advantage in that, in that moment? Like, like, "I'm gonna react wrong," or … is it a fear that you're gonna be overwhelmed by something about them, or you're gonna react wrong?

Mary: No. I think what it is is that I feel protective of my energy. Like I, I feel sort of, uh … I, I feel like … here's what—Oh, actually, this is what I think it is. Is when I'm engaged in a conversation with someone, I'm really there. I'm like … I really, it's important for me to be present and engaged and listening very intensely. And that, um … uh, takes a lot of energy that I'm happy to give. So I think when I'm, when there … a small interaction is not a small interaction to me. It's like, "(Sigh!) I can't engage with you right now (laughs)," is what it feels like. Like I don't, I need to, I, I need to have, I need to be quiet now. I need to be like alone and quiet. And I can't give … my instinct I think is to … to … uh, want to lean into whatever it is and make this other person comfortable and feel like we're talking about something real. And so, the small, the small talk conversation, like what is this? What are we doing?

Paul: How do I manage this person's mood? How do I give them what they want?

Mary: (Laughs) Yeah! And, and, also, we're not talking about anything. Like I'm just kind of like, this conversa-, we're never gonna see each other again. I can't, I can't invest in this, is like what it … feels like.

Paul: It's like you're being thrown into a play you don’t have the script for (laughs).

Mary: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Paul: That's what it feels like for me in those moments. BUT, if there's a vibe to the person that I feel connected to, and there's something that we can talk about passionately and I feel like that person has boundaries, then it can be very energizing. But I totally understand that, that feeling of, "Oh my god. They are sucking the very life out of me. How long can I endure this or when are they gonna take enough of break between sentences that I can make up a lie and get the fuck out of here?"

Mary: Yeah! Yeah!

Paul: Fake a, fake a phone call to yourself. Say, "Oh, oh hold on. My phone—"

Mary: "Oh, sorry. I'm, I'm calling myself real quick. Sorry." Like I, I think about that, just because it's a situation, that's happened a lot, in like a Lyft ride or an Uber ride where the, the driver is talkative and is asking questions. Ugh! I, or is telling me about themselves. I like … I, I, there's shame in it because I, I want to … know people and I'm interested in people. But I'm also like, "I don't wanna do this right now!" And, and you're telling me these things and I don’t know what to add to it. Like I, I don’t know how to just have … I don’t know how to just do that without really digging all the way in, and I just can't dig all the way in. And I get …

Paul: Yeah, I—

Mary: Draining (laughs).

Paul: I, I get it. I get it. What is, what is the saying: "When you stop being a people pleaser, people aren’t pleased?"

Mary: (Laughs) Yes. Yes.

Paul: I so relate to that. But, it's, um, the few moments I have been able to allow somebody to be uncomfortable and not feel like I have to save them emotionally, I felt like I was eight feet tall when it was done. Because I was like, "Oh, it didn’t kill them! They're gonna survive! I'm not responsible for them." But, but it's so—

Mary: Impossible not to feel responsible—

Paul: It, it really is. It really is—

Mary: —for people, or for their experience with me or like … yeah. It's impossible.

Paul: Yeah. What are some fears? One of the games we—well, I don't know if games is the right word. But one of the staples that we like to do on the show sometimes is go back and forth and … just think of things that we fear. Not like, "I'm afraid of spiders," but like, "I'm afraid of dying alone," you know. And then after that, things we love. You know, the more specific, the, the better. And the more personal, the, the better. So, um … I'll think, I'll think of a fear, unless you can think of one.

Mary: I think one that comes to mind for me is … this is also something that I'm like, this is, this is a weird thing of mine where I really want to be … like desired. Like I wanna be sexy. I wanna, I want to be like so achingly beautiful and desirable. And I, a fear of mine is that, uh, is what hap-, what will happen when that's no longer like … uh, that's no longer even—Like cuz I'm in my 30s now and, you know, I'm … that's kind of a prime (laughs) … or whatever. Or like, I'm a woman. I'm an adult woman and whatever. And I'm worried of like, when I get older, you know, in my 70s or something and, and being sexy or desirable is no longer like necessarily a … thing—

Paul: This is not me just saying that. But, as men get older … they find older women … attractive.

Mary: Really?!

Paul: Oh, yeah! I was in Starbucks the other day, and there was a woman who was as old as me, uh, if not, if not older. And, I just was like … she was just so beautiful, and she looked her age. And, I, I asked her out. She's, she's in a relationship or so she said. But, I felt so compelled in that moment—and I'd seen her there, you know, every Wednesday night I go to my support group meeting and I go there and I'd get a tea. And, it'd take me about six months to work up the, the nerve to ask her out. But, um, you … people in their 30s do not look—unless you're looking to date a guy in his 30s when you're 70, that will …

Mary: Yeah. It, and it's not to say also that, I don’t mean to say that people in their 70s, women in their 70s aren’t attractive—

Paul: No, you're afraid about YOU being in your 70s.

Mary: Yes, yes. I'm afraid of like me—and, and I don’t even know that I have … that I … I think that's what I want, I really want to have that. I don’t know that I necessarily have that kind of like hotness or whatever. But, but … a fear of mine is that I won't and never will. I'm just gonna die without even having that. I dunno, it's an irrational fear. They all are (laughs).

Paul: I'm afraid I talked too much about myself in this episode and I've ruined it.

Mary: OH MY GOSH! No! Simply not true. I'm afraid, uh … I'm (laughs), I'm afraid of the not knowing … It's tough, cuz I, this is also something I love. But, I'm afraid of … is, is this it? Was this … does everything … does everything go downhill from here? Like did I … in my career with … did I just … was that my career (laughs)? And is this, and am I now never gonna work again?

Paul: Is the buffet over?

Mary: Yeah, is the buffet over (laughs)?

Paul: I didn't get to try everything. Yeah, that's a great one. (Pauses) I am … I'm afraid that I kid myself about how much I'm growing and that I'm actually deluded and deeply broken.

Mary: Ugh! I'm afraid that I'll never know who I am.

Paul: It doesn’t go deeper than that. It doesn’t go deeper than that.

Mary: (Chuckles) WHO AM I (laughs)?

Paul: Who am I? Do we ever get to know that though?

Mary: I don't know.

Paul: I think we get to know more about ourselves as we, as we go along. But I don’t think there's—

Mary: I feel like there are people who know who they are. Like, who like are very confident and sure and like …

Paul: I think they're the deluded ones, because I think they've stopped looking. I heard an interview with Norman Lear, who at 93, said he is still learning stuff about himself and the world every day. He's still discovering things. So … I think as long as we stay curious and open-minded, uh, or bi-curious and open-minded—either one. It depends on what, what paper you're looking in the back pages of.

Mary: (Laughs)

Paul: No. I think that … one of the best gifts that you can be given is to be curious, or to be a seeker. And … I think a, a, the rest of it, and, and as long as you have the ability to self-reflect and, um, apologize when necessary, I think those are the most important things in life. Because, um, there's gonna be shit sandwiches and there's gonna be … victories. But it's being able to appreciate those moments or repair those moments that determines our character and our sense of who we are … until we spiral and we think we're deluded and broken.

Mary: Right (laughs).

Paul: I don't think it ever, does it even end?

Mary: I don't know; maybe not.

Paul: What's it like being the Dalai Lama? I'm sure he questions himself, like "God, I'm such a fraud." I mean, can you imagine the pressure of THAT?

Mary: No. Yeah, that would be insane. Yeah. (Sighs)

Paul: Gimme another fear … or was that your last one? Did you do the last one? Is it my turn?

Mary: I did the, yeah. I did that.

Paul: I dunno. Whoever thinks of one, think of one.

Mary: I'm a, okay. (Pauses)

Paul: I, I’m afraid that I'm gonna get a skin cancer. I've, uh … When I was out of the country, I … part, part of it was going to Croatia, and I just loved floating on a raft in the sea. And I realized how much feeling the sun on my body makes me happy. And so, I've been, you know, watering the lawn every day, or just laying out on the grass, cuz it just feels good. But I'm afraid I'm gonna get (laughs) skin cancer and I'm gonna go, "You jackass!"

Mary: You shouldn't've laid out on the grass (laughs)!

Paul: Right. And I know somebody'd gonna say, "Well, put suntan lotion on." For one, I live by myself and I can't put it on my back. But two, I like not being the pasty Irish guy and having a bit of color on my skin.

Mary: Yeah. Also, Vitamin D is good.

Paul: Yeah. I, I do think it improves my mood.

Mary: Yeah. Me, too. Yeah. I'm afraid of losing my parents.

Paul: Where did you leave them?

Mary: (Laughs)

Paul: That's so lame. It's so lame—

Mary: I don't, I can't remember. I had them one minute, and then the next minute they're gone (laughs). Yeah, I'm afra-, I know that that's … that's coming and … yeah, I'm so afraid.

Paul: Let's do loves. (Pauses) I love … the video series where people, um … who have only really been fans of rap or R&B listen to classic rock songs for the first time and … give their opinion on it, especially when they're, when they love it, and they, the things that they say that they love it, love about the song are the same things that I love about the song. And it kind of reminds me that, no matter what culture we embrace, there's still a commonality, uh, between us, and that it's not gonna end in World War III.

Mary: Ah, yes. Fingers crossed (laughs).

Paul: Yes. And I mean globally.

Mary: Yeah. I love, speaking of videos, I love watching little videos of animals … just being animals and doing very human-seeming things (both laugh). I love it so much. I could go down the hole for hours watching them.

Paul: For some reason this morning, when I—my ex has a puppy; we still share a dog, and then she also got a puppy recently. And he's just fucking adorable. His name is Grady. He's about 12 weeks old right now. And he's just SO affectionate and climbs all over me and gives me kisses. And (laughs), this morning I woke up and for reason I was singing that Elvis song, (sings) "Wise men say—"

Mary: Yes, I love that song!

Paul: —and I (laughs) had this image of me dressing up in a tuxedo, laying on the grass, singing that, and having him climb all over me (both laugh). And I wanna do it. I wanna do it—

Mary: That's great. Yeah. Ah, that's great—

Paul: I don’t even know what that says about me, but, it's just the—

Mary: You're very fancy!

Paul: —it just made me laugh. It just made me laugh, the idea of me serenading him, while he just crawled all over my face.

Mary: Ah! The unconditional love of pet-, of animals and pets. I love it—

Paul: The best. The best—

Mary: The best. The best. Yeah.

Paul: Your turn.

Mary: I love … well, I love the, the, um, as I said this was a thing that I'm scared off, but also I love it. I love how unpredictable my life is. I love how, how it's … one day to the next, I don’t know what it, what it's gonna be. I love that.

Paul: That seems like such a great thing to be able to embrace, because for so many of us that's the very thing that we want to avoid. And yet that keeps our lives … you know … from being truly exciting.

Mary: Yes. I feel like I, my life is very exciting and it's very spontaneous and full of creativity. And I, I love that. I'm so grateful for that.

Paul: I love when my instincts are rights, and I, uh, ask somebody to be on the show, and they're awesome.

Mary: Oh! Are you talking about another guest?

Paul: I'm talking about Mary Holland!

Mary: (Laughs) Great. I just wanted to get it, you know, verbally said so I can point back to it. Oh, thank you. I'm so glad I got to be on it. I love underst-, I love, like connecting with someone who has similar emotional experiences. Like I love hearing my own thoughts about a thing reflected in someone else.

Paul: That's the best.

Mary: It's the best.

Paul: It's the best. That's why I love support groups. Hearing my story almost every night, some part of my story or my inner life coming out of someone else's mouth, it's like that hug that, that I think we wanted sometimes as kids, but it … you know, wasn’t, uh, we didn’t have the words to, to ask for it. It's—and at the support groups I go to, I can ask for it after the meeting. And, um, I love that.

Mary: That's great—

Paul: I love that there's a place where I can go. You know, it took a while to get to that level of comfort with everybody to, to be at that point. But, um, I love how my loves are just adding onto, uh, your loves. I'm not coming up with, with any of, uh, of my own. Let me think of a good one. (Laughs) I love … watching something dark on Netflix, while I eat a gigantic bowl of Chick-A-Boom Pop Popcorn …

Mary: Chick-A-Boom Pop (laughs). Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen those, yeah—

Paul: It's so good. It's good, the olive oil one—

Mary: Oh yum!

Paul: And then having multiple ice cream sandwiches that I have let it for about seven or eight minutes, so it just starts to get soft. And then I just nibble around the edge of it. And just that bit where you, the cake, you just get the, the … oh, it's just so fucking good!

Mary: I think how people eat ice cream sandwiches, like … maybe some people just eat it like a sandwich. I do not. I—

Paul: You got, you gotta go up the butt, butt crack of it, right?

Mary: I have a whole process—Yes, yes! Yes!

Paul: But you gotta, it's gotta get melty to do the, the—

Mary: YES!

Paul: —the butt crack of it. Yeah.

Mary: Yeah.

Paul: I just ruined ice cream sandwiches for everybody.

Mary: Yeah, the butt crack of it (laughs).

Paul: I don't know what else, would you call it.

Mary: Yeah, what else would you call it? It's a butt crack. Is what it is. I love … I love the community that I'm a part of, the, the comedy community. I love the people in it, and I love the … the support and the outlet and the—It's, it's a really incredible thing, I love it.

Paul: Well, that's a, a good note to, uh, to end on, cuz I'm gonna, uh … again, say how people who live here or are visiting here should go see Wild Horses at the UCB Saturday nights at 10 o'clock?

Mary: Yeah, yes. It's once a month. It's the first Saturday of every month, uh, at 10 o'clock at UCB. And then we also have a monthly Largo show. But that, that date, uh, changes month to month, so …

Paul: I got you. I got you—

Mary: Yeah. So we have two monthly shows—

Paul: And, uh, it's at the UCB Franklin.

Mary: UCB Franklin. Uh-hmm.

Paul: And, um, it's, I just love what, uh, what you guys do—

Mary: Oh, thank you—

Paul: —It's, it's great. And thank you so much for coming and, uh, sharing your stuff.

Mary: Thanks for having me.

End of Interview

[01:26:28] When we first recorded, uh, this, this episode, I know Mary was a little bit nervous about, uh, that moment in the, in the episode where, where she cried. And, um, she wasn’t sure about airing it. And, I was like, "Mary, that is like … the best part of the episode. That's …" And I think that speaks to how exposed we feel when, when we get vulnerable. You know, there's times that I've considered editing out moments of the podcast where I get, uh, emotional. So I totally understand that, and I just wanna thank her publicly for, uh, rethinking that, um, uh, allowing me to, to keep that moment, that moment in, um, because it just made for such an awesome episode. And what a, what a sweet person.

[01:27:22] Before I take it out with, uh, two surveys, I want to remind you guys, there's a couple of different ways to support the podcast, if you're feeling so inclined. Help is greatly needed and greatly appreciated. You can do financially or non-financially. You can, financially by making a one-time, uh, donation via PayPal, uh, or, uh recurring monthly donation via PayPal or Patreon. Patreon's probably the, I think the better choice, because then I can occasionally post, uh, bonus things. You know, maybe pictures from a trip or pictures of dogs. Maybe I'll throw one up of my carved-up, uh, elbow. And, uh, that, that greatly helps the, the show because advertising comes and goes. And, um, monthly donors are kind of the bedrock that the podcast depends upon. And, um, I also understand a lot of you out there can't afford even a dollar, uh, a month, uh, cuz that's how little you can, you can, uh, become a monthly donor for. So you can help non-financially. Go to iTunes. Give us a good rating. Write something nice. Spread the word about the podcast through social media. Retweet things. Repost them on, on, uh, Instagram. Can you report on Instagram (laughs)? I, uh, I use Twitter quite a bit, but I have somebody who's helping me with Instagram, cuz I just … don’t care to share pictures of my food (laughs). Yeah, so those are some of the ways that you can, you can help the podcast. And, um, let's read a couple surveys.

[01:29:05] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a trans woman, uh, who calls herself "Ash." She is … straight, um … in her 20s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. Was a victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "I was sexually abused in the bathroom at a church by a Sunday school teacher when I was three or four, and strongly suspect there was sexual abuse possibly in other places that I don't remember. I absolutely can't bear anyone other than myself putting anything in my mouth, and I feel like I'm choking just thinking about it. When I was around seven, I had to be tested for strep throat at the doctor. And even though I was virtually always very well-behave, polite, and effeminate, I shrieked and fought so hard to keep them away from my mouth that had to be restrained by a nurse and the doctor. To my knowledge, I never behaved like that in any other context as a child. I'm not really sure what to do with that. And I still worry all the time about the effects any of that sexual abuse has had on my weird sexual preferences, my sexual orientation, and my being trans." She's also been physically and emotionally abused. "I grew up in a very strict, fundamentalist Christian community, and my parents were pretty routinely physically and emotionally abusive. Highlights include being spanked with a belt to the point of bruising or bleeding, having my dad tackle me and sit on my to pin me on the floor when I tried to run away from a fight with him and my mom, and my mom trying to force me to throw up because she believed I was lying about being sick and then threatening to forcibly give me a suppository. Looks pretty fucked up, written down like that. Ha! Oh, also I was home-schooled, so that meant spending an inordinate amount of time with my almost certainly narcissistic mother and having hours of intense emotional fights with her. I was also physical abused by a handful of other people from church and one of my dad's co-workers. He was a real charmer, the sort whose behavior seems hard even to square with our church's peculiar understanding of how to discipline children." Any positive experiences with people who abused you? "Yes, I've had a huge number of positive experiences with my parents, both of whom genuinely do love me and are concerned about my well-being and are passing on what they got from their parents. That's not to say that I'm not upset with them about my childhood or that I think it is any way justified. But I do at least sort of understand where they're coming from." Darkest thoughts: "When I found out my dad's co-worker who had abused me had Parkinson's disease, I was relived to think that he would probably be physically unable to hurt his grandchildren. Sometimes I still worry that I'm going to burn in hell forever and that the abuse I experienced as a kid was probably punishment from god because I was destined to be such an awful person, even though I don't believe in any of that stuff anymore. I have intrusive thoughts about killing myself pretty much every day and sort of enjoy fantasizing about what kind of message that would send to my parents about how they've affected me." Darkest secrets: "I have a weird kink that I'm almost positive is directly related to my sexual abuse as a child. When I was around 10 or so, I was sincerely concerned that I might be the anti-christ, which sounds weirdly grandiose in retrospect, but I feel like it was just a form for worry about being irredeemably evil to take." Oops, I just turned the light off. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I'm most drawn to men who are kind of like guys who were mean to me for being gay when I was a teenager, and I'm really turned on by feeling small and safe with them. I kind of like being treated like a child, It makes me feel incredibly guilty and shameful, like I've eroticized horrible things that happened to me as a kid and that somehow negates them or disrespects other people's experiences with abuse." Well, let me just say from all the stuff I've read, all the people I've talked to, and all of my experiences, it is … totally common for that to be the case. And it's what we do with that that matters. And hating yourself for that, um, is not a way of, of solving anything. And so, um, you know, invite a consenting partner into that area of your life or your thoughts or your sexuality. Maybe find a, um, a group of people who share that, uh, kink. But, shaming yourself for that, um, you know, is like shaming yourself, you know, getting the flu or being hit by a car or having freckles or … something else. It's, um, it's … yeah. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish I'd been just born female. Being trans feel awful." Have you shared these things with others? "I've shared a lot of it with my closest friends. It went as well as can be expected. They were generally understanding and didn’t act as horrified or find me as burdensome as I thought they would." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Like somehow, they look so much worse written down than they've sounded when I've spoken them to people, although especially all together in one space like this." I think that's one of the things our brains do to minimize it, so we can survive, is it compartmentalizes each of these things. And some of our breakthroughs come in … having clarity around a relationship with someone in our life is when we see the pattern of that person's behavior. Because we can often explain, you know, one or two events away. But, when we see a pattern, then it's kind of undeniable. And the same goes for, um, being rigorously self-honest with ourselves, looking at our patterns of behavior and saying, "Hey, you know, this is not just a, you know, a slip-up. I'm driving drunk every night. I'm finding an excuse to keep drinking." Or, you know, whatever it is that we're, we're struggling with. But thank you for that, for that, uh, survey. It's, um, I really appreciate your, your vulnerability and your honesty. And I really hope you can find a way to, um, to heal and to love who you are, uh, unconditionally, said the pot to the kettle. But yeah, you sound like a really, really sweet human being.

[01:35:51] And then, finally this is a happy moment, filled out by a woman who calls herself "Cautious," and she writes, "Had my first appointment with a psychologist two weeks ago. I was booked in for a six-week personality assessment, after which he decided an appropriate treatment plan for me. I was incredibly nervous, but at the same time excited because I thought this is it. This is the route that's finally going to help me. I'm finally progressing. I sat down and he explained how this whole thing was going to work before hitting me with the biggie. 'So what are your concerns?' Concerns? What did he mean? The question was so open. Shouldn’t HE ask me the usual stuff: how do you sleep, how's your appetite, do you self-harm, do you manage to interact with friends, blah, blah, blah. All the things I was so used to answering in the countless appointments with psychiatrists I've had over the years." I'm a little con-, confused though, because, uh, this person is a, he's a psychologist. So I guess she is saying that she has only had the talk therapy with psychiatrist; never had one with a psychologist. And just, my own personal opinion, is that generally psychologists, good psychologists, will do talk therapy better than a, um, typical psychiatrist, cuz they're much more extensively trained in the talk therapy, uh, aspect of it. Some psychiatrist have had zero training in, uh, talk therapy. "What did he want to know? He explained he just wanted to get to know me. He hadn’t even read my file. He wanted to hear how I viewed my problems in my own words, but it was too late. I'd already become overwhelmed and shut down. I was replying to his every question with a string of 'I don't knows.' Thirty minutes of the hour-long session passed, and I was becoming increasingly upset and frustrated with myself. He said, 'Look. Let's stop this here. I can discharge you from my care now. Maybe this isn't the right time for you to engage in psychology,' to which I internally screamed, 'Listen, buddy. This may be just a Monday for you, but I've been on a waiting list for 10 months for this appointment. I can't just give up.' Then he continued. 'You can come back next week and try again, just like this. Or you can go home, think about what I asked you, and come back with your concerns written down.' I chose option three and spent the next week really thinking about how I see my issues. I arrived back the next week and sat down. He said, 'So, what are your concerns?' I tried to speak without my notes on the spot, but the words just got caught in my throat, like they had a week before. I took out my notebook and read off the two pages I had written that week. After I took a deep breath and looked up at him, he told me I had given him the best presentation of thoughts he'd ever received from a patient. After that, it's like a floodgate opened. I was able to speak. The inability to communicate and the clamming up when asked personal questions is something I've dealt with forever. It's the reason I always gave up on therapy, and in one case was even asked to leave the therapist's office. People think I'm refusing to engage and am being stubborn. That session with the psychologist was such a relief to me. I proved that I can get in touch with, and then communicate, my feelings. At the end of the hour, he said, 'You know, I really didn’t think you'd show up after what happened last week. You should be proud of yourself.' I was proud of myself. I am proud of myself." So awesome! So awesome. I've been doing this show for eight years, and I still feel as excited reading a survey when so-, where someone describes turning a corner in therapy or support groups or, you know, having a moment of clarity or sticking up for themselves or, you know, being kinder or, you know, all that good stuff.

[01:40:01] And, uh, before I send you guys off into the night, I got one more thing to read. The team behind Missing Richard Simmons is back with an update and whole new story. The series is called Headlong: Surviving Y2K. Remember Y2K, the Armageddon that never happened? From an evangelical family preparing for the apocalypse to decoders who fixed the millennium bug, follow their stories through New Year's Even 1999 and find out what happened at midnight. Plus, host Dan Taberski shares his own Y2K story; it's called Surviving Y2K. Because, Dan barely did. Find Headlong: Surviving Y2K in your podcast app, like Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, and subscribe so you won't miss an episode.

[01:40:49] So, uh, that's it. Thank you for listening and being, uh, a part of this, um … dare I say community? I'm al- (laughs), I'm always so afraid of sounding pretentious, guru-ey, or New Agey. Like I'm afraid that five years from now, I will lose any sense of perspective, and I'm just gonna be using words like, um, "Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, um … it's transformative in that sacred space, because it's really a part of the divine journey." I don’t mean to shit on people who, that's helps them. But fuck them. I mean, can we be honest? Fuck them. Fuck them and their robes and their sandals, and their horse shit. Wow, this, this has taken a very negative turn (laughs). I think I, I'm gonna blame it on my, uh, my elbow. My elbow wound and my high-blood pressure. Anyways, I hope you got something out of the episode. And, um, thanks for listening. And just remember, you are not alone. I think I did that in the reverse order than I normally do. Blaming it on my elbow.

End