Lenz: Yeah, and also, it is othering people. People in Iowa are still part of America. We have tea, we have internet, we’re all having the same conversations. They’re just happening in different places, in different ways.

Green: In your book, you seem ambivalent about something I think about a lot—this desire to understand and find empathy for people who theoretically stand across some kind of “divide” from us, as journalists or as readers. Clearly, you care about understanding people, because you spent two years researching this book, and you’ve stayed in Iowa instead of moving to the liberal cocoon of Brooklyn. On the other hand, you seem really angry—at these people, and at the fact that the national media fetishize nostalgic white cultures. How do you square that ambivalence?

Lenz: It’s just like being in a family. I grew up with seven brothers and sisters, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that you can love someone and be deeply angry at them at the same time. This is a key tension in America: You can love this place and still be pissed at it.

This is a very personal thing for me. I was married to somebody who voted and pushed for policies that I believed were hurting America. The people in my churches, who have loved me through some really difficult times, were also the people I heard saying very homophobic things and hurting others. I love this place where I live, but I also want it to be better.

Green: What you just articulated seems to be the opposite of so-called cancel culture. There’s a spirit right now, on both the right and the left, of total elimination of the enemy. Do you see yourself as countering that culture, or homeless in a world that’s driven by those impulses?

Lenz: I think I might disagree with the characterization.

Green: Hit back, Lyz!

Lenz: [Laughs] I think that game of both-siderism is really dangerous, and here’s why: The conversation should be about who has power and who is not being given a voice.

I was recently talking with my pastor about this idea that we all just need to “come together and talk.” And I was saying, “Some people need to be quiet. Some people need to listen.” Right now, the people who have power are really afraid of losing it. And they’re the ones crying victim when other people get a voice at the table.

Green: I hear what you’re saying, but you’re also speaking from a left perspective, and if we’re going to look at that world, I will say: I hear a lot of, “Fuck Trump, and fuck everyone who voted for him.”

Lenz: I understand the feeling—I think this president is horrible and toxic. But what you’re saying is correct: A lot of people in America did vote for him, and you cannot just say, “Well, they don’t matter anymore.” What you can do, however, is look a person in the eye and say, “What you’re advocating hurts people, and is morally reprehensible.”