KERRY O'BRIEN, JOURNALIST: What sort of a natural, instinctive leader do you think Malcolm Turnbull is? You know him pretty well.

PAUL KEATING, FORMER PRIME MINISTER: I know him well. Well, the first thing I'd say to make a general comment, the bar is now so low.

KERRY O'BRIEN: I can you see you've been thinking about this.

PAUL KEATING: The bar is so low, you've only just got to step over it to be approved of.

I think - but you asked me about Malcolm Turnbull. I think Malcolm Turnbull has grown through his parliamentary career. I think his defeat for the leadership in 2010, I think it was, was a traumatic event for him. I think it's made him think about himself and the country and I think he'll be a better leader for that having happened. The real question is: can he take the now very right-wing Liberal Party anywhere back near the centre? That'll be the real test, you know, or whether he's stuck with the looney tune show on the right, you know.

And, you know - and whether he can actually, by being a popular leader, whether the Liberal Party's core establishment will give him the room he needs to change the balance within the Liberal Party back to some sort of centrist position.