SeeBettor



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NewbieActivity: 24Merit: 0 "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 09:59:54 PM #1 "Pseudo anonymous" as it relates to cryptocurrency seems a silly term to me. We might not see it right in front of us now, but in a future world that uses crypto as accepted day-to-day currency, the idea that full-financial-transparency would be accepted and adopted widely... It just seems absurd to me.



It's reasonable right now, it kind-of works at the level of transactions that Bitcoin is currently used for, and it works because of the lack of useful tools widely available to view transaction records. But the future would have websites where anyone could lookup anyone elses full transaction history, their entire spending and earning life.



The only "pseudo" part about it right now is there because of the lack of tools currently made available. But a coin will either be anonymous or transparent (or the option to choose one or the other per-transaction); no in-between. Is that not a correct statement?



The "mixing" solution is just a work-around.



Is there really the need to explain all the reasons why a world where every person, every business, every transaction in the world is made available to public view would just never work, never be widely accepted and adopted? It has nothing to do with enabling criminal activity. It has a lot to do with disabling the ability for the criminal to acquire targets.



Currently, our fiat transactions, aside from physical cash-to-hand, they are "kind-of" safeguarded by the centralized banking system, in-terms of some level of anonymity. You can't walk into the bank and ask the teller to show you your neighbor's financial transactions of last week. In the de-centralized dream many of us hope for, there will be no central authority to keep some necessary level of privacy. Anonymity must be built-in to the currency.



Sure this might sound like some pro-alt-coin rant, sure this idea was prompted by reading about some alt-coin features; but I'm not here to promote anything or bash Bitcoin. I don't have enough understanding of everything out there to convince myself they're not all scam pump-n-dump schemes, so I stay away. But, for months, I've been constantly thinking about what might be wrong with Bitcoin, why might it fail, what will it take to be adopted more widely? I want it to all be great and good and the future. I worry about the centralized mining concern. I try to educate myself on these type of potential walls that the technology might run into. Convince me why I shouldn't be concerned about lack of anonymity.

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LegendaryActivity: 868Merit: 1001 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 10:33:36 PM #2 You are right and thats why gmaxwell is working on stuff such as confidential transactions that obfuscate the amount of money you are sending. Sure it's not full anonymity, but it's an improvement. We also can hope that Amir ever continues working in Darkwallet.

But overall I agree, I don't want to live in a world where a public global ledger is available for anyone to spy on your finances. But at the same time, we need regulation if we want to be mainstream (assuming a cryptocurrency cannot reach mainstream usage without regulation from governments).

The question is, where is the cutoff? how much to give in in favour of hopes that regulation gets us on the mainstream? where are the limits on how much anonimity is needed? who draws those limits? so many questions.

countryfree



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LegendaryActivity: 2534Merit: 1038Your country may be your worst enemy Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 10:40:28 PM #3 Quote from: SeeBettor on August 06, 2015, 09:59:54 PM because of the lack of useful tools widely available to view transaction records. But the future would have websites where anyone could lookup anyone elses full transaction history, their entire spending and earning life.



This already exists, don't you know? There are blockexplorer and blockchain.info. True, they're nameless, but once you get used to them, you just need to know an address as a starting point, and you can follow the money. This already exists, don't you know? There are blockexplorer and blockchain.info. True, they're nameless, but once you get used to them, you just need to know an address as a starting point, and you can follow the money. If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic

OROBTC



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LegendaryActivity: 1932Merit: 1102 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 10:52:59 PM #4



Someone here at bitcointalk a few days ago posted the below interesting link (note ".co", not ".com"):



http://coinalytics.co/tools/tracker.html



I used this to track one of my wallets, my most "public" one. Try it out on one of your addresses! ...Someone here at bitcointalk a few days ago posted the below interesting link (note ".co", not ".com"):I used this to track one of my wallets, my most "public" one. Try it out on one of your addresses!

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LegendaryActivity: 966Merit: 1002Codl water with lemon Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 10:59:49 PM #5

The only thing is that, for the moment, Bitcoin started free and indipendent.

The day someone else or something else will force to accept some kind of cryptocurrency whatever we'll do with our money will be tracked from source to ending point.



This is scary but this is possible.



As for now, it's still possible to be stealth with BTC.



But tomorrow? that we don't know.



Quote from: OROBTC on August 06, 2015, 10:52:59 PM



Someone here at bitcointalk a few days ago posted the below interesting link (note ".co", not ".com"):



http://coinalytics.co/tools/tracker.html



I used this to track one of my wallets, my most "public" one. Try it out on one of your addresses!

...Someone here at bitcointalk a few days ago posted the below interesting link (note ".co", not ".com"):I used this to track one of my wallets, my most "public" one. Try it out on one of your addresses!

Whatever you said resonates with what I think and what I fear the most.The only thing is that, for the moment, Bitcoin started free and indipendent.The day someone else or something else will force to accept some kind of cryptocurrency whatever we'll do with our money will be tracked from source to ending point.This is scary but this is possible.As for now, it's still possible to be stealth with BTC.But tomorrow? that we don't know.This is incredible. You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough

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LegendaryActivity: 965Merit: 1000 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 11:24:50 PM #6 There are ways to go about it if you want at least some level of anonymity. But for other things, there is really no need. If I buy a pizza with some bitcoin, I really do not care who can or will track it. It is the same with fiat, if I want to buy something that no one will know about I can just use cash. If I buy something I don't care who knows, I can use my credit or debit card.

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Sr. MemberActivity: 250Merit: 250 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 11:48:46 PM #7 bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a real issue. now imagine my salary is being paid in bitcoin, and I have a bitcoin bank account I certainly don't want that information public. This does need to be solved and made easy to use for the average joe

Kazimir



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LegendaryActivity: 1176Merit: 1000 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 06, 2015, 11:54:17 PM #9 Quote from: SeeBettor on August 06, 2015, 09:59:54 PM But a coin will either be anonymous or transparent (or the option to choose one or the other per-transaction); no in-between. Is that not a correct statement? No. For example, here are a few 100% transparent transactions.







The 2 BTC on the left was mine. Now, which addresses on the right still belong to me? Nobody can tell.



Note that pretty much all wallets are HD nowadays. There is no mixing or other obfuscation trickery at play here, this is just normal default wallet behavior.



Quote Currently, our fiat transactions, aside from physical cash-to-hand, they are "kind-of" safeguarded by the centralized banking system, in-terms of some level of anonymity.

Hah, for the general public, maybe. They (banks, governments, secret services, paypal, credit card companies, etc) most definitely have all the information they want. All conveniently grouped together in a nice, efficient, centralized database. With fiat, your supposed precious 'privacy' is handed over on a silver plate.



Quote You can't walk into the bank and ask the teller to show you your neighbor's financial transactions of last week. With cryptocurrency, you can't either.



Quote Convince me why I shouldn't be concerned about lack of anonymity. I hope the above picture explains why this is completely infeasible. Still, if you're really paranoid, you might look at Monero's cryptonote protocol. That's 100% anonymity built in right there.

No. For example, here are a few 100% transparent transactions.The 2 BTC on the left was mine. Now, which addresses on the right still belong to me? Nobody can tell.Note that pretty much all wallets are HD nowadays. There is no mixing or other obfuscation trickery at play here, this is just normal default wallet behavior.Hah, for the general public, maybe.(banks, governments, secret services, paypal, credit card companies, etc) most definitely have all the information they want. All conveniently grouped together in a nice, efficient, centralized database. With fiat, your supposed precious 'privacy' is handed over on a silver plate.With cryptocurrency, you can't either.I hope the above picture explains why this is completely infeasible. Still, if you'reparanoid, you might look at Monero's cryptonote protocol. That's 100% anonymity built in right there. In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

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LegendaryActivity: 2002Merit: 1020A Great Time to Start Something! Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 12:09:18 AM #10 Quote from: SeeBettor on August 06, 2015, 09:59:54 PM "Pseudo anonymous" as it relates to cryptocurrency seems a silly term to me. We might not see it right in front of us now, but...

In 2011, during the first huge Bull rally, mass-media and some internet articles called BTC an anonymous currency.

I was surprised to later learn about the "Pseudo anonymous" nature of Bitcoins. In 2011, during the first huge Bull rally, mass-media and some internet articles called BTC ancurrency.I was surprised to later learn about the "Pseudo anonymous" nature of Bitcoins.

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LegendaryActivity: 2884Merit: 1753 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 12:37:38 AM #11 Quote from: Bit_Happy on August 07, 2015, 12:09:18 AM Quote from: SeeBettor on August 06, 2015, 09:59:54 PM "Pseudo anonymous" as it relates to cryptocurrency seems a silly term to me. We might not see it right in front of us now, but...

In 2011, during the first huge Bull rally, mass-media and some internet articles called BTC an anonymous currency.

I was surprised to later learn about the "Pseudo anonymous" nature of Bitcoins.

In 2011, during the first huge Bull rally, mass-media and some internet articles called BTC ancurrency.I was surprised to later learn about the "Pseudo anonymous" nature of Bitcoins.

bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..



so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.



so bitcoin is as anonymous as cash.. right up until you get caught on CCTV handing over the bank note.. so overall most/all currencies are pseudo, including bitcoin. because even using mixers. if someone knows one of yor send addresses, he knows atleast something about your financial history bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.so bitcoin is as anonymous as cash.. right up until you get caught on CCTV handing over the bank note.. so overall most/all currencies are pseudo, including bitcoin. because even using mixers. if someone knows one of yor send addresses, he knows atleast something about your financial history I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.

Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at

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LegendaryActivity: 952Merit: 1000Stagnation is Death Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 10:26:37 AM #14 Quote from: franky1 on August 07, 2015, 12:37:38 AM bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..



so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.



People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see it



Some people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin is worse than Cash if talking about privacy People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see itSome people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin isthan Cash if talking about privacy

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Hero MemberActivity: 798Merit: 1000 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 11:04:54 AM #15 Quote from: smiletyson on August 06, 2015, 11:50:52 PM Quote from: misterycoins on August 06, 2015, 11:48:46 PM bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a real issue. now imagine my salary is being paid in bitcoin, and I have a bitcoin bank account I certainly don't want that information public. This does need to be solved and made easy to use for the average joe

No it's not.

Bitcoin is running on a "PUBLIC LEDGER". Anyone can track any tx on blockchain. If you want to stay anonymous then you should get paid in CASH.

No it's not.Bitcoin is running on a "PUBLIC LEDGER". Anyone can track any tx on blockchain. If you want to stay anonymous then you should get paid in CASH.

Or learn how to mix coins properly. Still in the future of a bitcoin bank I would imagine that it would work the same way as most exchanges and would keep all funds in a small number of wallets. Therefore your coins would be untraceable to yourself when withdrawing, only exception would be the bank themselves. Or learn how to mix coins properly. Still in the future of a bitcoin bank I would imagine that it would work the same way as most exchanges and would keep all funds in a small number of wallets. Therefore your coins would be untraceable to yourself when withdrawing, only exception would be the bank themselves.

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LegendaryActivity: 1176Merit: 1000 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 11:05:41 AM #16 Quote from: pandher on August 07, 2015, 10:26:37 AM Quote from: franky1 on August 07, 2015, 12:37:38 AM bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..



so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.



People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see it



Some people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin is worse than Cash if talking about privacy

People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see itSome people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin isthan Cash if talking about privacy



Furthermore, even if you do send money from an address that your wife knows about, for example to a porn shop or violent cult, exactly how will she (or anyone) know that the receiving address is actually a porn shop or violent cult?



Here, for example, this is a transaction from me, paying for porn:

https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/48a2d6b13b6cdd1d960f3a61478ffb3781341abe75b2208aa2c2e10dfd2c7c20



Even if you or my wife or my boss or anyone knows that the sending address was mine, then what? When you say "my address" (not plural), I wonder if you are aware of the fact that you can have as many different addresses as you like? Completely unlinked and unrelated to eachother?Furthermore, even if you do send money from an address that your wife knows about, for example to a porn shop or violent cult, exactly how will she (or anyone) know that the receiving address is actually a porn shop or violent cult?Here, for example, this is a transaction from me, paying for porn:Even if you or my wife or my boss or anyone knows that the sending address was mine, then what? In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

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Kazimir



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LegendaryActivity: 1176Merit: 1000 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 11:10:30 AM #17 Quote from: smiletyson on August 06, 2015, 11:50:52 PM No it's not.

Bitcoin is running on a "PUBLIC LEDGER". Anyone can track any tx on blockchain.

Exactly what can you "track" about any tx?



1. You have no clue know the name, identity, or any personal information of either the sending or the receiving person.



2. Before and after this tx, the bitcoins are came from earlier addresses, and sent further to different addresses, you don't know if they still belong to the same owner or if he/she is spending them to others.



There's your anonymity right there.



Quote If you want to stay anonymous then you should get paid in CASH.

And risk getting filmed by security cams, or the other person remembering my face, or getting secretly recorded or followed, or receiving marked bills, or having serial numbers printed on them which are tracked? No thanks. Bitcoin provides all the guarantee for my anonymity, privacy and security I need.

Exactly what can you "track" about any tx?1. You have no clue know the name, identity, or any personal information of either the sending or the receiving person.2. Before and after this tx, the bitcoins are came from earlier addresses, and sent further to different addresses, you don't know if they still belong to the same owner or if he/she is spending them to others.There's your anonymity right there.And risk getting filmed by security cams, or the other person remembering my face, or getting secretly recorded or followed, or receiving marked bills, or having serial numbers printed on them which are tracked? No thanks. Bitcoin provides all the guarantee for my anonymity, privacy and security I need. In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

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LegendaryActivity: 952Merit: 1003--Signature Designs-- http://bit.ly/1Pjbx77 Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 11:49:08 AM #18 Anonymous means you cannot tie a name to it easily, does not mean it cannot be investigated and tracked. You can send an anonymous letter to someone. You did not sign your name on it, but it could be traced back to you even something tries hard enough. Bitcoin is like that. I have said this before on another thread. I believe the real difficulty is not the anonymity when you are saving coins. It's not putting a name to the coins when you spend it.

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LegendaryActivity: 952Merit: 1000Stagnation is Death Re: "Pseudo anonymous" August 07, 2015, 11:51:32 AM #19 Quote from: Kazimir on August 07, 2015, 11:05:41 AM When you say "my address" (not plural), I wonder if you are aware of the fact that you can have as many different addresses as you like? Completely unlinked and unrelated to eachother?

How inconvenient, giving out new addresses for every transaction every time. I can picture a lot of mistaken transactions due to this. Do people who pay me regularly for my services have to contact me each month for a new address?



Quote Furthermore, even if you do send money from an address that your wife knows about, for example to a porn shop or violent cult, exactly how will she (or anyone) know that the receiving address is actually a porn shop or violent cult?

Do you think businesses will keep changing their deposit addresses everyday, i have already seen people tagging Mt Gox, Coinbase, Poloniex addresses



Quote Even if you or my wife or my boss or anyone knows that the sending address was mine, then what?

Lol, are we really talking about this?



Why even wear clothes then? Walk naked, the what? How inconvenient, giving out new addresses for every transaction every time. I can picture a lot of mistaken transactions due to this. Do people who pay me regularly for my services have to contact me each month for a new address?Do you think businesses will keep changing their deposit addresses everyday, i have already seen people tagging Mt Gox, Coinbase, Poloniex addressesLol, are we really talking about this?Why even wear clothes then? Walk naked, the what?