michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today —

archived recording A growing firestorm on Capitol Hill after Democratic Senator Al Franken is accused of forcibly kissing and groping a woman more than a decade ago.

michael barbaro

Conservative talk show host Leeann Tweeden accused Franken of sexually inappropriate conduct when they worked together on a U.S.O. tour.

archived recording 1 Another woman is coming forward to make groping accusations against Minnesota senator Democrat Al Franken. archived recording 2 Another woman has come forward to accuse Franken of sexual misconduct. archived recording 3 This just came in that Kirsten Gillibrand, senator from New York, she is now calling on Senator Al Franken to resign. This is marking the first time a senator has called on the Minnesota Democrat to leave office. archived recording 4 First, it was Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, and then Claire McCaskill, Mazie Hirono, Maggie Hassan, Patty Murray, Kamala Harris, Tammy Baldwin, who have now called on their colleague to resign. archived recording (al franken) Nothing I have done as a senator, nothing, has brought dishonor on this institution, and I am confident that the Ethics Committee would agree. Nevertheless, today I am announcing that in the coming weeks, I will be resigning as a member of the United States Senate.

michael barbaro

Nearly two years after Senator Al Franken’s resignation over allegations of sexual harassment, new reporting about those allegations has revived the debate —

archived recording Al Franken is back in the headlines and trending tonight. That’s thanks to this article published in The New Yorker today.

michael barbaro

— over whether the Democratic Party, particularly senators now seeking the presidency in 2020, moved too fast in calling on him to resign.

archived recording 1 The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer says parts of Tweeden’s account don’t hold up, like her claim Franken wrote one skit so he’d have an excuse to kiss her repeatedly. archived recording 2 When asked if he regretted resigning, Franken replied, oh yeah, absolutely. And seven senators went on the record saying they regret calling for his resignation. archived recording 3 No regrets for the White House hopeful Kirsten Gillibrand. archived recording 4 Furious Democrats called her a traitor, but on this subject, Gillibrand is unapologetic.

michael barbaro

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand says absolutely not. It’s Tuesday, August 20.

kirsten gillibrand

You ready? Are we ready? Is Michael already on the phone?

[interposing voices]

kirsten gillibrand

O.K.

michael barbaro

Hello?

kirsten gillibrand

Hello.

michael barbaro

Hey, Senator Gillibrand. It’s Michael Barbaro.

kirsten gillibrand

Hi, Michael. How are you?

michael barbaro

How are you?

kirsten gillibrand

I’m well.

michael barbaro

Where are you?

kirsten gillibrand

I’m in my house in D.C.

michael barbaro

So you’re on a break from the campaign trail?

kirsten gillibrand

Correct.

michael barbaro

So we wanted to talk to you because you’re running a presidential campaign that has really distinguished itself by focusing on gender, gender inequities, questions around harassment and equal representation. And for many Americans, the way that they first came to know you for that, and maybe the way they first got to know you, period, was through your leadership in calling for Senator Al Franken of Minnesota to step down after allegations of harassment back in 2017. And in recent weeks, there’s been some new reporting on what happened back then. So to start, I want to go back to that time, to right before the first allegation against Franken. This is November of 2017. The Harvey Weinstein story has just broken in The Times, and that’s followed very shortly after by accusations against Roy Moore, the Republican Senate candidate in Alabama. What do you remember, Senator, about that time?

kirsten gillibrand

Well, there was even more than that going on. There was a breaking story about rampant sexual harassment claims on Capitol Hill, and I was actually working on legislation to change the rules of how we deal with sexual harassment in Congress. There was also my constant fight to end sexual assault in the U.S. military, and so there was a lot going on at that moment before those allegations came out.

michael barbaro

So you were very actively working on this issue before the #MeToo issue had kind of broken open.

kirsten gillibrand

Absolutely, for over five years, in fact.

michael barbaro

So what was the conversation going on among Democrats as you were considering how to handle the allegations against Roy Moore?

kirsten gillibrand

On those allegations, there was a lot of clarity, and there was a lot of clarity up front. You had someone who was accused multiple times of pedophilia and of inappropriate sexual contact with underage women, and there was really no ambiguity with regard to that — certainly not from Democrats.

michael barbaro

I wonder, had it yet occurred to you that the #MeToo movement would reach the Democratic Party?

kirsten gillibrand

I had no doubt it would. The scourge of sexual assault, sexual harassment, is prevalent everywhere, and I knew full well that it would at some point come to Congress, and it was coming to Congress.

michael barbaro

So what do you remember about the first allegation leveled against your friend and your fellow Democrat, Al Franken?

kirsten gillibrand

Well, I remember I was sitting in an Armed Services hearing when a staffer showed me the breaking news and the photo, and I read the article, and it was disturbing and concerning. And I think over a couple of hours, I was ultimately asked what I thought, and I said there should be an ethics investigation.

michael barbaro

So what happened that changed your approach? Because, of course, ultimately, you called for Franken to resign, and there wasn’t an ethics investigation.

kirsten gillibrand

Right. What transpired over the next three weeks was a lot of information. Eight allegations emerged. Each one was determined to be credible and was corroborated in real time by the national media. Two of the allegations that emerged were since he was elected, and the eighth allegation happened to be a congressional staffer. And the nature of the allegations were all very similar, and with each allegation, as it grew, it created more and more concern in my mind. I couldn’t defend him. I couldn’t carry his water, and my silence was doing exactly that. So I got to the point where I wanted to say, very clearly, that I didn’t think it was acceptable, and that I felt that he really needed to resign. Now, 34 other members of the Senate followed me pretty quickly. Some within minutes. Several who are running for president today. I also, as you know, Michael, have two sons. And my oldest, Theo, is now 15. And the conversations we were having at home were upsetting to me as a mother. Mom, why are you so tough on Al Franken? And so I had to have clarity as a mom, and just say to Theo at the time, it’s not O.K. for anyone to grope someone without their consent, or to forcibly kiss them without their consent. It’s not O.K. for Senator Franken, and it’s certainly not O.K. for Theo. So I had to have clarity, and so I made my decision, and Senator Franken, he had his own choices. He could have explained himself, he could have stuck it out to his ethics investigation, and he could have waited till his next election. Those were all his decisions, not mine.

michael barbaro

But why did you yourself no longer want to wait for the ethics investigation? You said he could have waited, but you called for his resignation.

kirsten gillibrand

Right. I just reached the point where I couldn’t defend him. He had also already acknowledged that he had crossed a line. He acknowledged that he had to be much more careful and sensitive in the future. And when he had the opportunity to talk to me and our colleagues, he didn’t really take that opportunity.

michael barbaro

Did you reach out to him?

kirsten gillibrand

No, and we were there, and he knew that we were concerned. Me and several other senators.

michael barbaro

And what do you mean by clarity? You just used that word. Because it’s clear that some people looking back on this case see it as a gray zone. So how would you define clarity for the Democratic Party?

kirsten gillibrand

Well, from my perspective, when you grope a woman without her consent, when you forcibly kiss a woman without her consent, those are actions that are not appropriate for someone who wants to serve in the public. It’s a pattern that is disturbing, and I just can’t defend it, and I couldn’t defend it.

[music]

archived recording (al franken) Over the last few weeks, a number of women have come forward to talk about how they felt my actions had affected them. I was shocked. I was upset. But in responding to their claims, I also wanted to be respectful of that broader conversation, because all women deserve to be heard, and their experiences taken seriously. I think that was the right thing to do. I also think it gave some people the false impression that I was admitting to doing things that, in fact, I haven’t done. Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others I remember very differently. Serving in the United States Senate has been the great honor of my life. I know in my heart that nothing I have done as a senator, nothing, has brought dishonor on this institution.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. You said the allegations were corroborated by the national media, kind of in real time. Of course, there have been these developments in recent weeks with significant reporting in The New Yorker that has challenged many of those accounts, raised questions about their accuracy.

kirsten gillibrand

I don’t think that’s accurate, actually. I felt that piece only challenged one account. There were eight credible allegations. From what I read, it really seemed to delve into only one.

michael barbaro

The one being the first.

kirsten gillibrand

Correct. Not the one about the person who served in the military, not the one about the congressional staffer, not the one about the former elected official, not the few who were groped at the state fair.

michael barbaro

Well, the reporting did address the former congressional staffer. The one that I —

kirsten gillibrand

Not really. I think there was maybe two sentences on it.

michael barbaro

I think in the case of the other allegations, and this was what The New Yorker article seemed to establish — several of them were about perception of Senator Franken’s actions. And what Jane Mayer asked the congressional aide was if it was possible that Franken hadn’t been making a sexual advance. This was a case where, perhaps, he had just been clumsy when he reached in to hug her, and the woman responded, quote, “Is there a difference if someone tries to do something to you unwanted?” And I wonder what you make —

kirsten gillibrand

Yeah. The allegation — I just have to stop you there.

michael barbaro

Go ahead, please.

kirsten gillibrand

The allegation was of a forcible kiss. It was not a hug. Let’s not confuse the issue. And when he made that gesture, in whatever form he did, he said the words, “That’s my right as an entertainer.” And as someone who is trying to make the workplace safe for all young men and women who work in Congress, to not stand by her, and to not be able to protect her, I wouldn’t be a good senator, and I wouldn’t be able to continue to lead on these issues. I think the question was, how do you feel about destroying a senator’s career? And to ask that question is the perfection of victim blaming, and it is unfortunate that that would be said to a young female staffer who has devoted herself to public service.

michael barbaro

Were you at all troubled by the new information that emerged when it came to the first allegation, Ms. Tweeden? I know you’re saying that, ultimately, it was about the kind of cumulative understanding of behavior, but there were some specific revelations about the people around the woman who made these allegations, about inconsistencies and inaccuracies of things she claimed happened, or that were unique to her that turned out to not be right, according to interviews. A play wasn’t written by Al Franken, according to Jane Mayer’s reporting, just so he could kiss her. He had written similar skits before, and many women had played those roles. That allegation ultimately opened the door for these other allegations to come forward. So is it problematic? Is it worrisome to you that there are inaccuracies, and lots of questions and challenges around that first allegation?

kirsten gillibrand

The fact that he admitted to crossing the line in many examples — he said, I quote, “I crossed a line for some women. I know that, and any number is too many.” The fact that he said he had to be much more careful and sensitive in the future. Those were his words that came out after the third allegation. So I think just picking apart one allegation is really harmful. I think it’s harmful to the larger moment that we’re in, because how would you feel, Michael, if you were the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh or eighth allegation? How would you feel if you were the congressional staffer, to see members of your own institution saying you’re not sure now? I think it’s a pretty devastating feeling, and I think it pushed us back, I think, for women and men across America who have been abused, assaulted, harassed, afraid to come forward because of retaliation.

michael barbaro

I hear you pushing back on all of the reporting there. Is there room to challenge those who accuse?

kirsten gillibrand

Of course there is. That’s what justice is about. When you say believe women, what that means is not they get to decide whether something happened or didn’t. It means that you will do an investigation. When a rape survivor runs into a police station, and she said, I was just raped, and the police officer says to her, oh, well, is that what you were wearing? Oh, you knew the person? Oh, you were drinking? They’re disbelieving her, and so they are not doing an investigation. What the phrase means is believe them as much as you believe someone else who runs into a police station and said, my car was stolen, and start the investigation. And so that’s the whole point. The #MeToo movement and being able to come forward with your truth is so that you can tell what happened to you, so perhaps there’s a chance at justice. The truth is there’s women and men all across America who will never be able to call out their boss, whose bosses aren’t famous enough where a public call-out would make a difference. They could never be able to even have the hope of justice. And so I thought that this is a moment where I needed to speak my truth, that this was something that I didn’t think was O.K., and given eight allegations and two since he was elected, and having the eighth one be someone who works in my place of work. Again, and as I said, this is something I had been working on for months before this. It caused grave concern to me.

michael barbaro

I completely understand the point you’re making, and how difficult it has been for women to come forward. But as you said, much of the investigation in this case has been done by the media, not traditional investigators. And this latest reporting seems to provide some new information that an investigation would likely have shed light on. So in retrospect, do you wish that Senator Franken had held on for the ethics investigation? So that when we talk about justice, we can look at the results of a proper investigation, and so there’s no ambiguity — go ahead.

kirsten gillibrand

Right, Michael, but you’re asking me about something that’s not my choice. Whether or not to stick it out for an ethics investigation is Al Franken’s decision, and his decision alone. He’s entitled to every bit of investigative work. He could have sued every woman that came forward and gone to the criminal justice system. He could have sued them for fraud. He could have had any measure of investigation that he wanted. He’s the one who chose not to have that. But what he is not entitled to, Michael, and I want to be clear on this, is my silence. He’s not entitled to the Democratic Party being in his corner. Because if that’s what’s expected of us, then his role as senator is more important than the rest of our roles as senator. That we can be speakers of truth. That we can stand with a woman who works in our workplace who felt not only attacked, but felt devalued. So those are my choices, whether to speak out or not. I am somebody who stands up for people who need protection, who need their voices to be lifted up, and I will stand with those eight survivors. I would do it again today, and that’s the courage we need to have, and I’m grateful that the Democratic Party has the courage to do that.

michael barbaro

You’re totally right that, ultimately, it was his choice. It was. He decided to step down. I wonder if, ultimately, though, your cause would be strengthened by an investigation into allegations like this, because in that case, there’s no room for ambiguity. There’s no room for anyone to say, we are just believing women with no proof, and in the process, we may be ruining careers without evidence. If it just makes everything you just said stronger, if you help ensure that there is due process — and that is a process that you can influence with your voice, and potentially, in this case, did influence.

kirsten gillibrand

I was not willing to stay silent for however many months that investigation was going to take place. In a lot of these instances, we are asked what you believe and what you think because we are members of Congress, and because we are decision makers on these issues. I don’t think people waited for Harvey Weinstein to have a full criminal investigation before they decided he had to go. I don’t think people waited for any of the examples that you could raise in multiple venues in different industries. I just knew I got to the point where I couldn’t defend him. So I chose to say, I’m not O.K. with this.

michael barbaro

What do you make of the fact that in the months that have passed since Franken resigned, a number of your Democratic colleagues have now said that they regret joining you in calling for his resignation? What does that tell you? Does it mean that some of your Democratic colleagues have lost that clarity, in your mind?

kirsten gillibrand

No, I think it represents a struggle that a lot of people are having right now with this idea of redemption, and this idea of forgiveness. And how does someone who has made mistakes re-emerge in any context or any industry?

michael barbaro

And how much room for forgiveness do you see there as being in this moment?

kirsten gillibrand

I think it’s there for anyone who wants it. It just is a matter of having the humility and grace to take responsibility, to know that you need to say you’re sorry, and move on from there. I think for everyone, there’s always that path. You just have to choose to take it.

michael barbaro

What would you like, in that sense, to hear from Senator Franken? In this moment, he is saying he regrets stepping down. He’s denying many of the allegations in the way that they’re being framed. I’m guessing you don’t see that as the kind of contrition that you’re looking for.

kirsten gillibrand

My perspective doesn’t matter. This is for Senator Franken. What happens from here on in is his decision, and how he decides to take this moment.

michael barbaro

Well, more broadly, as someone who has become a leader on this issue, what would you like to see men doing who are in the kind of position that Franken is in?

kirsten gillibrand

You know, it’s interesting. I haven’t really seen it yet, but I would imagine somebody who wanted to re-emerge in whatever industry they’re in just needs to apologize. Whatever the appropriate act of taking responsibility is would depend on what they were accused of, and what the context is. Having the humility to recognize you’re wrong, and having the grace to seek forgiveness. That’s it. That’s all it takes. It’s not hard. It’s just very rare.

michael barbaro

I want to talk about your presidential campaign as it relates to all of this. As we talked about, in many ways, this kind of brought you onto the national stage. Your advocacy for women has become quite central to your campaign. And I wonder what you make of the fact — and I hate talking about polling, but with apologies — that you’re polling quite low in this moment, and that the Democrat who’s currently leading in the polls, Joe Biden, faced accusations of inappropriate touching himself a couple months ago, and continued on with his campaign, and seems to be doing quite well. Does that trouble you, or does that tell you anything?

kirsten gillibrand

I don’t think that’s necessarily the reason. I don’t think the Al Franken thing has helped. I think it’s hurt when it comes to Democratic donors. I mean, I think it’s been —

michael barbaro

It’s hurt you?

kirsten gillibrand

Clearly established — yeah — and written about that some donors don’t want to support my campaign. But I could have told anybody at the time that there is literally no reward for standing up to powerful men who are good at their day job, and I’ve been doing it for a long time.

michael barbaro

I know this is a provocative question, and that’s why it’s, perhaps, my last one. What about the possibility that you’re not just hurting your own candidacy with this approach that you’ve just laid out, but, perhaps, hurting the Democratic Party? Just stick with me for a second. I’m mindful that just ahead of the 2018 midterms, Brett Kavanaugh was accused of sexual assault, and he continued on with his Supreme Court nomination. Your Republican colleagues in the Senate, they stood by him, and they and he, Kavanaugh, prevailed in getting confirmed. We started talking about this idea that Democrats should hold themselves to a different standard. And watching this play out, is there a danger in the Democratic Party playing by a different set of rules than the Republicans? That you might discover that Americans don’t necessarily agree with the standards that the party is using — that you, Senator Gillibrand, are applying, and that the party will suffer, while the Republicans only gain power?

kirsten gillibrand

So I couldn’t disagree with you more, Michael. First of all, I disagree with the notion that Democrats paid a price over Al Franken. I think Tina Smith is an extraordinary U.S. senator doing a great job, and having a higher electoral victory than her predecessor. I think Kamala Harris, who replaced Al Franken on the Judiciary Committee, has shown she is a tremendous voice on that committee, and has done an outstanding job. The fact that Roy Moore was not elected, and we have an extraordinary Democrat in Doug Jones. The fact that 2018 was an enormous victory for the Democratic Party. Not only did we flip the House of Representatives because women ran in red and purple places across this country, we had extraordinary victories across the country. Women in America know that the Democratic Party values them. Women in America know that the Republican Party might not. And I would challenge the Democratic Party — do not lose sight that you have to do the right thing, even when it’s hard. And I think that when we value women and do the right thing long-term, we will prevail, we will be stronger, and we will earn the support of Americans, because we value their mothers, their daughters and their sisters.

michael barbaro

So if your candidacy might have been hurt by this, but you think that there are these other signs that the Democrats really gained from all of this, what’s the takeaway that you want to leave listeners with?

kirsten gillibrand

Sometimes it’s very hard to do what’s right. I know it’s hard. It’s really hard. And it’s really hard when the person is someone you care about, and admire, and like, and enjoy, and think is really good, but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t anyway.

[music]

michael barbaro

Well, Senator, I really want to thank you for taking time to talk about this. I really appreciate it. We all do.

kirsten gillibrand

You’re welcome.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Here’s what else you need to know today.

archived recording (ilhan omar) The decision to ban me and my colleague, the first two Muslim American women elected to Congress, is nothing less than an attempt by an ally of the United States to suppress our ability to do our jobs as elected officials.

michael barbaro

During a joint news conference on Monday, Congresswomen Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib publicly condemned Israel’s decision to bar them from visiting the country, but said that would not discourage them from speaking out about the plight of Palestinians living under Israeli control.

archived recording (ilhan omar) Denying visit to duly elected members of Congress is not consistent with being an ally, and denying millions of people freedom of movement, or expression, or self-determination is not consistent with being a democracy.

michael barbaro

Omar encouraged her congressional colleagues to take the trip that she and Tlaib have been denied.

archived recording (ilhan omar) So I would encourage my colleagues to visit. Meet with the people we were going to meet with. See the things we were going to see. Hear the stories we were going to hear. We cannot, we cannot let Trump and Netanyahu succeed in hiding the cruel reality of the occupation from us. So I call on all of you to go. The occupation is real. Barring members of Congress from seeing it does not make it go away.

michael barbaro

Israel said it had barred the lawmakers because of Omar and Tlaib’s support for boycotting the country over its treatment of Palestinians, but said it would have allowed Tlaib, whose grandmother lives in the West Bank, to visit her if Tlaib agreed not to promote the boycotts during her visit. Tlaib said she could not comply with those conditions.

archived recording (rashida tlaib) I think my grandmother said it beautifully when she said I’m her [SPEAKING ARABIC]. [SPEAKING ARABIC] in Arabic means her bird, and she said I’m her dream manifested. I am her free bird. So why would I come back and be caged and bow down when my election rose her head up high, gave her dignity for the first time? And so through tears, at three o’clock in the morning, we all decided as a family that I could not go until I was a free American United States congresswoman coming there, not only —

michael barbaro

And —

archived recording (james p. o'neill) No one believes that Officer Pantaleo got out of bed on July 17, 2014 thinking he would make choices and take actions during an otherwise routine arrest that would lead to another person’s death.

michael barbaro

Five years after the death of Eric Garner, whose final words, “I can’t breathe,” became a rallying cry for the Black Lives Matter movement, the New York City police officer blamed for his death has been fired.

archived recording (james p. o'neill) But an officer’s choices and actions, even made under extreme pressure, matter.

michael barbaro

The officer, Daniel Pantaleo, who put Garner in a chokehold in Staten Island in 2014, was not charged with a crime by either the city or the federal government, but an N.Y.P.D. judge found him guilty of reckless assault and had recommended his termination.

archived recording (james p. o'neill) In this case, the unintended consequence of Mr. Garner’s death must have a consequence of its own.

michael barbaro

On Monday afternoon, Garner’s mother responded to Pantaleo’s firing.

archived recording (gwen carr) Yeah, Pantaleo, you may have lost your job, but I lost a son. July 17, 2014, I lost my son. You cannot replace that. You can get another job. Maybe at Burger King.

michael barbaro