23:45 - Tag: Yes, but why is denying existence bad?

23:45 - ruffletuffle: Tag: If I wouldn't give anything

ruffletuffle: because you were denied the potential to give things

ruffletuffle: which is wrong

Tag: Then I wouldn't give a care that I was deprived of all pleasure.

23:45 - Duruznik: because existance is everything

23:45 - ruffletuffle: the 'I' wouldnt exist

23:45 - ruffletuffle: at all

23:46 - Duruznik: and then we couldn't spell exist

23:46 - Duruznik: we'd have to type 'exst'

23:46 - Tag: Yes that's right ruffle.

23:46 - Tag: If the "I" never existed.

23:46 - Tag: Then it makes no sense to speak of someone never existed as being 'deprived'.

23:46 - Duruznik: would make spelling a bitch, is all I'm saying

23:46 - Doomed Civilian: exst needs more vowels, thus we need the "i" to exsist.

23:46 - Doomed Civilian: :D

23:46 - ruffletuffle: well it does

23:46 - Duruznik: you mean 'deprved'

23:46 - ruffletuffle: cause ontologically speaking

23:46 - Duruznik: ontologcally

23:47 - ruffletuffle: on some degree you would exist pre-formation

23:47 - Duruznik: and you mean speakng

23:47 - Duruznik: get it right damnit

23:47 - Admiral Ctare: rght*

23:47 - Duruznik: ...

23:47 - Duruznik: fuck

23:47 - Admiral Ctare: damnt*

23:47 - Admiral Ctare: t*

23:47 - Tag: What do you mean, I would exist pre-formation?

23:47 - Duruznik: /twiflip

23:47 - Admiral Ctare: come on duru, get your act together

23:47 - ruffletuffle: your capacity for potential

23:47 - ruffletuffle: would exist

23:47 - Duruznik: fiiine

23:47 - ruffletuffle: before you did

Duruznik has changed their name to Duruznk.

23:47 - Duruznk: there

23:47 - Admiral Ctare: ...fne*

23:47 - Duruznk: all better

That's Grotesque disconnected.

23:48 - Admral Ctare: all good over here.

23:48 - Tag: Ok, so let's consider a 'prospective' human being

23:48 - Doomed Civilian: ... Ctare, I've got a lot of I's, do you want one of mine?

That's Grotesque entered chat.

23:48 - Tag: An entity that we consider that may or may not be brought into existence

23:49 - ruffletuffle: sure

Pinkie Pie left chat.

23:49 - Admral Ctare: Don't worry doomed, I'm fine, it went to a charity.

23:49 - Doomed Civilian: Alright, I just didnt want to leave you wanting

23:49 - Tag: This is to contrast from pure non-existence which (by definition of existence and non-existence) can't have the potential for anything.

23:49 - Tag: Okay so

23:49 - Tag: Yeah, that prospective Human being (let's call him Bill :) )

23:49 - Doomed Civilian: Not having I's is pretty shitty, in my books.

23:49 - Tag: would have the potential for pleasure

23:49 - Tag: However.

23:49 - Tag: The potential for pleasure != need for pleasure, or desire for pleasure

23:50 - ruffletuffle: true

23:50 - ruffletuffle: but we assume that pleasure is good

23:50 - ruffletuffle: cause util

23:50 - ruffletuffle: so it would be easier to say

23:50 - Draze: No one needs I's Civ

23:50 - Admral Ctare: I'm all good, I'll find a title without i's

23:50 - ruffletuffle: has the potential to have good

23:50 - Tag: We say that the PRESENCE of pleasure is good

23:50 - Tag: But that the absence of pleasure is not necessarily bad.

23:50 - ruffletuffle: yes

23:50 - Draze: I'm doing very well without any

23:50 - Tag: Hm, yeah.

23:50 - ruffletuffle: but that doesnt change my above statement

23:50 - ruffletuffle: has the potential to have good

23:51 - Draze: Drize would look terrible

23:51 - Maestro Ctare: No i's.

23:51 - Tag: Right, so we agree that the presence of pleasure > absence of pleasure

23:51 - Doomed Civilian: You only think your doing well, the I rich know what its like to have many I's.

23:51 - ruffletuffle: in util, yes.

23:51 - Tag: Yup

23:51 - Tag: But

23:51 - Tag: (let me formulate this one sec)

23:51 - Draze: I bet it sucks to have many I's

23:51 - Maestro Ctare: No i's supremacy

That's Grotesque disconnected.

Femnight Tales entered chat.

23:52 - Doomed Civilian: uhoh. Proletariat uprising

23:52 - Tag: Actually yeah, that's the thing though.

23:53 - TI-99/4A: What is it about a chat room about cartoon ponies that creates interesting philosophical discussions

That's Grotesque entered chat.

23:53 - Draze: Down with the I oligarchy!

23:53 - Tag: Right now, we're imagining non-existence as a "neutral" state of pleasure, right?

23:53 - Tag: A kind of 0, on the scale of morality?

23:53 - Maestro Ctare: I's have too much power!

23:53 - ruffletuffle: we are imagining it as having the potential for pleasure, as well as everything else

Doomed Civilian has changed their name to Diimid Civiliin.

23:54 - Diimid Civiliin: The I's will hold you off

23:54 - Diimid Civiliin: you plebs >:|

23:54 - Draze: Oh god it burns

23:54 - Tag: But right now, as prospective human being Bill

23:54 - Tag: would pleasure value would you attribute to it?

Femnight Tales left chat.

23:54 - ruffletuffle: what*?

23:54 - Maestro Ctare: Too much I!

23:54 - Diimid Civiliin: >:D

23:54 - Draze: Look at him

23:55 - Draze: Hogging all the I's

23:55 - Maestro Ctare: Like an I banker of sorts.

23:55 - Tag: If we have to consider whether coming into existence is morally acceptable

23:55 - ruffletuffle: it doesnt really matter what value you would attribute to pleasure

23:55 - Tag: And we're considering based on utilitarianistic ethics

23:55 - ruffletuffle: as long as you have the potential to value it

23:55 - A Man Dressed Like A Bat: Are Tag and Ruffle still discussing philosophy and pleasure and pain and deep shit like that?

23:55 - Diimid Civiliin: I'll loan you an i at 200% annual interest

23:55 - Maestro Ctare: Yeah, and we're talking about I's.

23:55 - Tag: We have to consider the pleasure and pain values of prospective existence vs. the pleasure and pain values of actual existence

23:55 - Maestro Ctare: I have no need for I!

23:56 - ruffletuffle: not really

23:56 - Diimid Civiliin: The world runs on I

23:56 - ruffletuffle: this is pre-value

23:56 - Diimid Civiliin: s you fool.

23:56 - A Man Dressed Like A Bat: Ok :l I'll jump in when the topic changes to something I'm interested in

23:56 - Maestro Ctare: I'll give you a t for £30.

23:56 - ruffletuffle: the potential to have those values

23:56 - ruffletuffle: is necessary

23:56 - ruffletuffle: before we can discuss what the values would be

23:56 - Tag: Ok, so, hm.

23:56 - ruffletuffle: if you are deprived of that potential

Pinkie Pi entered chat.

23:56 - ruffletuffle: then you would be deprived of that as well

23:56 - Pinkie Pi: so

23:56 - Pinkie Pi: whats this about guild wars on fort aspenwood?

23:56 - Maestro Ctare: Oh god the i's!

23:56 - Draze: Oh god more of the I's

23:56 - Tag: Right, so we have Bill atm, who has the potential for pleasure and pain.

23:57 - Draze: I'm glad we think alike

23:57 - Tag: Currently neither.

23:57 - Maestro Ctare: I too am glad.

23:57 - ruffletuffle: currently not technically existing

23:57 - Pinkie Pi: tag, you see the guild wars 2 post on the sub?

23:57 - Tag: Not yet Pi, I will later

23:57 - Tag: Ok so with this Bill, if you argue against existence

23:57 - Tag: Then you would deprive Bill of the potential for that pleasure (and pain)

23:58 - Tag: And if the potential for pleasure that is lost > potential for pain that is lost, then one may argue that it is better for Bill to come into existence

23:58 - Tag: However. This is something that I can't quite reconcile with this conclusion:

Diimid Civiliin has changed their name to Doomed Civilian.

Dr. Salvador[streaming] entered chat.

23:58 - Maestro Ctare: Ahh, less I's.

23:59 - Doomed Civilian: Yeah

23:59 - Doomed Civilian: it looked retarded

23:59 - Doomed Civilian: >.>

23:59 - Maestro Ctare: Good.

23:59 - Tag: If someone were to go back in time, right now, and kill my parents and 'undo' me, so that I never experienced any of the pleasure I already had.

23:59 - Draze: It still does

23:59 - Dr. Salvador[streaming]: I'm streaming dark souls if anyone is interested

23:59 - Tag: Would that really be an issue for me?

23:59 - Draze: With al the I's

23:59 - Doomed Civilian: Well, yeah

23:59 - TI-99/4A: Link?

23:59 - Doomed Civilian: but less retarded.

23:59 - Dr. Salvador[streaming]: giving away stuff too

23:59 - Dr. Salvador[streaming]: http://www.twitch.tv/drsalvadormd

23:59 - Draze: I know the perfect cure, Civ

23:59 - Tag: Would that be so bad?

23:59 - ruffletuffle: would not having pain really be an issue for you?

23:59 - Draze: Get rid of the I's

23:59 - Maestro Ctare: Ahh, another Dr. good to meet you.

Doomed Civilian has changed their name to Doomed Peasant.

23:59 - Doomed Peasant: k

2012 m. rugpjūčio 25 d.

00:00 - Maestro Ctare: I too have a doctorate.

00:00 - ruffletuffle: the issue is the deprival of potential at all

00:00 - Tag: Well there's the thing. *Right now*, I am negatively affected by my suffering.

00:00 - Draze: Ahhh

00:00 - Draze: Much better

00:00 - ruffletuffle: it couldbe argued that pleasure would be not having pain

00:00 - Draze: I can now breathe easier

00:00 - Pinkie Pi: nvm then

Pinkie Pi left chat.

00:00 - ruffletuffle: if you existed

00:00 - Tag: And right now, I am positively affected by my pleasure.

00:00 - Tag: However, go back in time and undo me:

00:00 - Maestro Ctare: No I's are now actively chatting.

00:00 - Maestro Ctare: It is done.

00:00 - Draze: this is like the epitome of this chat

00:00 - Tag: I no longer have pain. This is an improvement over my state of suffering; this is why many people choose to kill themselves.

00:00 - Tag: I also no longer have pleasure.

00:01 - Tag: However.

00:01 - Draze: 3 people discussing the supremacy of the letter I in nicknames