Rawr Profile Joined October 2010 Sweden 161 Posts #2 This is pretty amazing! Joo Se-Hyuk

Ler Profile Joined August 2012 Germany 417 Posts #3 #ArtOfSupport HYPE! Twitter: @Ler_GG | Facebook: lergg | youtube: lerlolgg | Twitch.tv/gg_nore | #ArtOfSupport

Slovpeis Profile Joined September 2010 Norway 23 Posts #4 sick! Viking blood runs throught my veins!

HammerKick Profile Joined May 2013 France 5125 Posts #5 #Support4Ever



I just love this. Well, it's high noon somewhere in the world

Heyoka Profile Joined March 2008 Temple of EE-Sama 2467 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-31 20:27:03 #6 We'll try to release the next one faster so it's not a week in between sections that wasn't original intention!



Glad people enjoy. @RealHeyoka | DreamHack StarCrafty Man

HammerKick Profile Joined May 2013 France 5125 Posts #7



I'd like one because I want to be better at simply picking the rights supports in the right situations. I'd like to know, is a list of all the supports and their types is in project?I'd like one because I want to be better at simply picking the rights supports in the right situations. Well, it's high noon somewhere in the world

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 4698 Posts #8 Okay, I'm having a lot of trouble with this guide. It says that defensive, defensive is the "safest" support duo, when in fact it's by far the riskiest support duo, except possibly greedy/greedy. The inability of defensive support duos to project onto the map makes your team insanely vulnerable during the early and middle stages of the game to simply being outlaned. The enemy team can play extremely greedy, and your support duo can do jack all to stop it. I don't get how you can call it safe at all, when it hands your team a very fast and very easy way of losing the game.



This is honestly where I draw the line with this guide, after the drastic oversimplification of supports into individual roles in the first part of the guide. It's never about the individual supports, but rather about the ability of the duo in question to work on the map, and that falls into things like initiation potential, zoning potential, damage potential, lockdown potential, farming potential... the list goes on. Shadow Demon, for example, can transform from the most defensive of supports to the most aggressive of supports simply by who his partner is.



Overall I find these guides a massive disappointment, because in their attempt to be basic and elementary, they become dangerously inaccurate. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

Ler Profile Joined August 2012 Germany 417 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-31 23:02:21 #9 On September 01 2014 06:04 Acritter wrote:

Okay, I'm having a lot of trouble with this guide. It says that defensive, defensive is the "safest" support duo, when in fact it's by far the riskiest support duo, except possibly greedy/greedy. The inability of defensive support duos to project onto the map makes your team insanely vulnerable during the early and middle stages of the game to simply being outlaned. The enemy team can play extremely greedy, and your support duo can do jack all to stop it. I don't get how you can call it safe at all, when it hands your team a very fast and very easy way of losing the game.



This is honestly where I draw the line with this guide, after the drastic oversimplification of supports into individual roles in the first part of the guide. It's never about the individual supports, but rather about the ability of the duo in question to work on the map, and that falls into things like initiation potential, zoning potential, damage potential, lockdown potential, farming potential... the list goes on. Shadow Demon, for example, can transform from the most defensive of supports to the most aggressive of supports simply by who his partner is.



Overall I find these guides a massive disappointment, because in their attempt to be basic and elementary, they become dangerously inaccurate.



First point: Run Treant SD paired with a potm on safelane an farming Naga mid - This reflects a 4 protect one lineup. Here are two defensive supports extremly safe to play since you need to safe your mates due to naga farming and playing 4 vs 5. You dont want to take figths, you want to disengage and protect towers.

I Part I I explain that two defensive supports are countered by greedy supports...

Second point: This is a theoretical guide which does not covers hero combinations but give people a feeling how its done in theory. I just added some basic examples since epeople asked for it °_°

Last but not least: You cant put Dota into a black box.



First point: Run Treant SD paired with a potm on safelane an farming Naga mid - This reflects a 4 protect one lineup. Here are two defensive supports extremly safe to play since you need to safe your mates due to naga farming and playing 4 vs 5. You dont want to take figths, you want to disengage and protect towers.I Part I I explain that two defensive supports are countered by greedy supports...Second point: This is a theoretical guide which does not covers hero combinations but give people a feeling how its done in theory. I just added some basic examples since epeople asked for it °_°Last but not least: You cant put Dota into a black box. Twitter: @Ler_GG | Facebook: lergg | youtube: lerlolgg | Twitch.tv/gg_nore | #ArtOfSupport

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 4698 Posts Last Edited: 2014-08-31 22:37:58 #10 In that situation, SD is a far more aggressive hero than a defensive hero, because you're using Disruption as setup for the PotM. Treant helps with his right-clicks, of course. You've just tried to counter my point by cherrypicking a pair of defensive supports with amazing aggressive potential: which, of course, your guide does not cover in the slightest.



It doesn't change the fact that a supporting duo without the ability to project onto the map is an extremely risky play that relies on the heroes you're defending getting so out of control that the rest of it doesn't matter. That's basically the definition of risky play.



I don't understand what you mean by "black box." A black box experiment is an experiment where you use various non-invasive procedures to figure out what's inside a black box (almost always metaphorical) because you simply can't get in there to find out otherwise. I see no relevance of that to DOTA2. Are you using the wrong expression?



If you want my advice, I'd restructure your entire notion of support role (outside of 4 and 5 position, which you cover adequately) towards the idea of goals. Ask players: what are their goals this game? What heroes do they need to buy time for? What heroes do they need to shut down? What map objectives need to be taken, and what map objectives can be taken? Based on that, pick heroes capable of accomplishing those objectives. Is Antimage capable of handling himself in lane, but might need assistance with multiple-hero ganks? Shadow Demon is a solid option, as is Dazzle. Do they have a scary Tinker that you need to stop early or not at all? Skywrath Mage and Earthshaker are excellent choices. Are your heroes all going to win their lanes, but you're a little shaky going into lategame? Get an Enigma, and use the fast Mek to push towers. It's also just the mindset people should have about this game in general, especially from the support position. Always having goals in mind can really keep the game together. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

winterymint Profile Joined October 2013 United States 20 Posts #11 On September 01 2014 07:25 Acritter wrote:

In that situation, SD is a far more aggressive hero than a defensive hero, because you're using Disruption as setup for the PotM. Treant helps with his right-clicks, of course. You've just tried to counter my point by cherrypicking a pair of defensive supports with amazing aggressive potential: which, of course, your guide does not cover in the slightest.



It doesn't change the fact that a supporting duo without the ability to project onto the map is an extremely risky play that relies on the heroes you're defending getting so out of control that the rest of it doesn't matter. That's basically the definition of risky play.



I don't understand what you mean by "black box." A black box experiment is an experiment where you use various non-invasive procedures to figure out what's inside a black box (almost always metaphorical) because you simply can't get in there to find out otherwise. I see no relevance of that to DOTA2. Are you using the wrong expression?



If you want my advice, I'd restructure your entire notion of support role (outside of 4 and 5 position, which you cover adequately) towards the idea of goals. Ask players: what are their goals this game? What heroes do they need to buy time for? What heroes do they need to shut down? What map objectives need to be taken, and what map objectives can be taken? Based on that, pick heroes capable of accomplishing those objectives. Is Antimage capable of handling himself in lane, but might need assistance with multiple-hero ganks? Shadow Demon is a solid option, as is Dazzle. Do they have a scary Tinker that you need to stop early or not at all? Skywrath Mage and Earthshaker are excellent choices. Are your heroes all going to win their lanes, but you're a little shaky going into lategame? Get an Enigma, and use the fast Mek to push towers. It's also just the mindset people should have about this game in general, especially from the support position. Always having goals in mind can really keep the game together.

Yeah but the problem with your suggestion is that it'll be way too specific. What do you mean by a scary Tinker that needs to be stopped early or not at all? That doesn't make any sense. You are giving out scenarios where the possibility of encountering them in matches may not happen at all. What makes this guide good is the fundamentals and objectives of supports categorized by their role.

Yeah but the problem with your suggestion is that it'll be way too specific. What do you mean by a scary Tinker that needs to be stopped early or not at all? That doesn't make any sense. You are giving out scenarios where the possibility of encountering them in matches may not happen at all. What makes this guide good is the fundamentals and objectives of supports categorized by their role.

bigglesbiggles Profile Joined August 2013 New Zealand 10 Posts #12 My only concern is that all supports have a mixture of these traits in the laning phase and therefore each support duo is a (nonlinear!) function of these features by the composition of the support heroes, rather than a pair of supports, each with a type. For example, SD is defensive alone, but potentially very aggressive with Lina or Leshrac, moreso than solo SD aggression + solo lesh aggression. Similarly, depending on your cores, SD can be a very aggressive roaming support, for example if your mid is kunkka and your offlaner is potm. I guess the result of that in practical terms is that your hero or duo's role (or position in your typology) is determined as much by the composition of the two teams as it is by which hero you're playing. Although whether a support is greedy or not seems (in my thinking) less malleable.



Aside from that, it's an interesting model of support duo composition and I look forward to the next instalment.

Checkm8 Profile Joined March 2011 Japan 377 Posts #13 Why so good? Be careful, lest we become the power we hope to check.

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 4698 Posts #14 On September 01 2014 07:58 winterymint wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 01 2014 07:25 Acritter wrote:

In that situation, SD is a far more aggressive hero than a defensive hero, because you're using Disruption as setup for the PotM. Treant helps with his right-clicks, of course. You've just tried to counter my point by cherrypicking a pair of defensive supports with amazing aggressive potential: which, of course, your guide does not cover in the slightest.



It doesn't change the fact that a supporting duo without the ability to project onto the map is an extremely risky play that relies on the heroes you're defending getting so out of control that the rest of it doesn't matter. That's basically the definition of risky play.



I don't understand what you mean by "black box." A black box experiment is an experiment where you use various non-invasive procedures to figure out what's inside a black box (almost always metaphorical) because you simply can't get in there to find out otherwise. I see no relevance of that to DOTA2. Are you using the wrong expression?



If you want my advice, I'd restructure your entire notion of support role (outside of 4 and 5 position, which you cover adequately) towards the idea of goals. Ask players: what are their goals this game? What heroes do they need to buy time for? What heroes do they need to shut down? What map objectives need to be taken, and what map objectives can be taken? Based on that, pick heroes capable of accomplishing those objectives. Is Antimage capable of handling himself in lane, but might need assistance with multiple-hero ganks? Shadow Demon is a solid option, as is Dazzle. Do they have a scary Tinker that you need to stop early or not at all? Skywrath Mage and Earthshaker are excellent choices. Are your heroes all going to win their lanes, but you're a little shaky going into lategame? Get an Enigma, and use the fast Mek to push towers. It's also just the mindset people should have about this game in general, especially from the support position. Always having goals in mind can really keep the game together.

Yeah but the problem with your suggestion is that it'll be way too specific. What do you mean by a scary Tinker that needs to be stopped early or not at all? That doesn't make any sense. You are giving out scenarios where the possibility of encountering them in matches may not happen at all. What makes this guide good is the fundamentals and objectives of supports categorized by their role.

Yeah but the problem with your suggestion is that it'll be way too specific. What do you mean by a scary Tinker that needs to be stopped early or not at all? That doesn't make any sense. You are giving out scenarios where the possibility of encountering them in matches may not happen at all. What makes this guide good is the fundamentals and objectives of supports categorized by their role.

If you don't stop the Tinker early he fucking kills you. The meaning isn't that deep and nuanced there. If you don't stop the Tinker early he fucking kills you. The meaning isn't that deep and nuanced there. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

Aerisky Profile Joined May 2012 United States 1044 Posts #15 Holy shit :O nice



Can't wait for a carry guide too XP Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.

winterymint Profile Joined October 2013 United States 20 Posts #16 On September 01 2014 13:16 Acritter wrote:

If you don't stop the Tinker early he fucking kills you. The meaning isn't that deep and nuanced there.

No that's not what it means when you say not at all. When you say "scary or not at all", you worded it to mean he's scary or not scary at all. Which makes no sense. You're not even on Dota 2 leaderboards why are you trying to bash the OP's post. No that's not what it means when you say not at all. When you say "scary or not at all", you worded it to mean he's scary or not scary at all. Which makes no sense. You're not even on Dota 2 leaderboards why are you trying to bash the OP's post.

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 4698 Posts #17 On September 01 2014 14:10 Aerisky wrote:

Holy shit :O nice



Can't wait for a carry guide too XP

I can do that for you.



1. Learn how to last hit with your hero. Like, really well. Practice solo or against bots until you can get every one. Then you should be at least decent against humans.

2. Watch the minimap for ganks. Those will mess you up bad. Don't be afraid to hide behind your tower if it isn't safe.

3. Communicate with supports and team. Don't be the needy asshole, though. That's a fast way to get no support at all.

4. Tune your item build for the game. Are they going to go after you early and often? Build the equivalent of Phase+Drums. Is the early game clear with the midgame being rough? Midas is solid. Do you need to rax them by 30 minutes or risk their team just crushing yours? Pushing items. Mek or what have you. Come online fast, and end the game.



Of course, the last one is a little more complicated. Mostly it's just down to practice, though. I can do that for you.1. Learn how to last hit with your hero. Like, really well. Practice solo or against bots until you can get every one. Then you should be at least decent against humans.2. Watch the minimap for ganks. Those will mess you up bad. Don't be afraid to hide behind your tower if it isn't safe.3. Communicate with supports and team. Don't be the needy asshole, though. That's a fast way to get no support at all.4. Tune your item build for the game. Are they going to go after you early and often? Build the equivalent of Phase+Drums. Is the early game clear with the midgame being rough? Midas is solid. Do you need to rax them by 30 minutes or risk their team just crushing yours? Pushing items. Mek or what have you. Come online fast, and end the game.Of course, the last one is a little more complicated. Mostly it's just down to practice, though. dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

Acritter Profile Joined August 2010 Syria 4698 Posts #18 On September 01 2014 14:25 winterymint wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 01 2014 13:16 Acritter wrote:

If you don't stop the Tinker early he fucking kills you. The meaning isn't that deep and nuanced there.

No that's not what it means when you say not at all. When you say "scary or not at all", you worded it to mean he's scary or not scary at all. Which makes no sense. You're not even on Dota 2 leaderboards why are you trying to bash the OP's post. No that's not what it means when you say not at all. When you say "scary or not at all", you worded it to mean he's scary or not scary at all. Which makes no sense. You're not even on Dota 2 leaderboards why are you trying to bash the OP's post.

Jesus Christ, do you even speak English? Kill him BEFORE HE GETS SCARY or NOT AT ALL. Does that not make sense to you? Those are two distinct times. That's all there is to it.



What the fuck is the matter with you?



User was warned for this post Jesus Christ, do you even speak English? Kill him BEFORE HE GETS SCARY or NOT AT ALL. Does that not make sense to you? Those are two distinct times. That's all there is to it.What the fuck is the matter with you? dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria

Caladbolg Profile Joined March 2011 1490 Posts #19 On September 01 2014 06:04 Acritter wrote:

Okay, I'm having a lot of trouble with this guide. It says that defensive, defensive is the "safest" support duo, when in fact it's by far the riskiest support duo, except possibly greedy/greedy. The inability of defensive support duos to project onto the map makes your team insanely vulnerable during the early and middle stages of the game to simply being outlaned. The enemy team can play extremely greedy, and your support duo can do jack all to stop it. I don't get how you can call it safe at all, when it hands your team a very fast and very easy way of losing the game.



This is honestly where I draw the line with this guide, after the drastic oversimplification of supports into individual roles in the first part of the guide. It's never about the individual supports, but rather about the ability of the duo in question to work on the map, and that falls into things like initiation potential, zoning potential, damage potential, lockdown potential, farming potential... the list goes on. Shadow Demon, for example, can transform from the most defensive of supports to the most aggressive of supports simply by who his partner is.



Overall I find these guides a massive disappointment, because in their attempt to be basic and elementary, they become dangerously inaccurate.



Well, while I think your criticism is legitimate, it's quite hard to encapsulate overall in-game policies into a black-letter guide.



A defensive/defensive duo is the safest so long as you draft a carry that the opponent cannot hope to outcarry, or needs an incredibly greedy draft to defeat. A good example would be a Naga Siren carry. You don't need to threaten the opponent throughout the map - you just need to distract them/stall long enough for the Naga to get a Radiance and start the creep skipping shit. In your example, an extremely greedy lineup would beat the defensive team, but ONLY if they manage to delay the Radiance timing enough for the Naga to lose all momentum.



As for oversimplification... it can't be helped. No single support can be pigeonholed into a role, except maybe for Treant and Wisp. As you said, SD can be aggressive or defensive, based not just on the duo (with Lesh/Lina/Mirana) but also on the rest of the lineup (Stuns needed good setup like Alch, etc). It's too difficult to explain every nuance. So the next best thing is to give examples, hoping that by analogy, the players reading the guide will learn the thinking behind the supports and can learn to think for themselves, and decide how they want to play the hero.



For example, I love playing Rubick, but oftentimes in a pub I'd have to play him very defensively since I'd be the only support. But on the off chance that one of my teammates is willing to get a hero that synchs with him, then I can switch to aggro and set up stuns and ganks and generally roam all day. But that mentality wasn't an overnight realization, it was derived from watching really good support players change their style of play depending on the draft, a lesson that the guide is trying to impart. Well, while I think your criticism is legitimate, it's quite hard to encapsulate overall in-game policies into a black-letter guide.A defensive/defensive duo is the safest so long as you draft a carry that the opponent cannot hope to outcarry, or needs an incredibly greedy draft to defeat. A good example would be a Naga Siren carry. You don't need to threaten the opponent throughout the map - you just need to distract them/stall long enough for the Naga to get a Radiance and start the creep skipping shit. In your example, an extremely greedy lineup would beat the defensive team, but ONLY if they manage to delay the Radiance timing enough for the Naga to lose all momentum.As for oversimplification... it can't be helped. No single support can be pigeonholed into a role, except maybe for Treant and Wisp. As you said, SD can be aggressive or defensive, based not just on the duo (with Lesh/Lina/Mirana) but also on the rest of the lineup (Stuns needed good setup like Alch, etc). It's too difficult to explain every nuance. So the next best thing is to give examples, hoping that by analogy, the players reading the guide will learn the thinking behind the supports and can learn to think for themselves, and decide how they want to play the hero.For example, I love playing Rubick, but oftentimes in a pub I'd have to play him very defensively since I'd be the only support. But on the off chance that one of my teammates is willing to get a hero that synchs with him, then I can switch to aggro and set up stuns and ganks and generally roam all day. But that mentality wasn't an overnight realization, it was derived from watching really good support players change their style of play depending on the draft, a lesson that the guide is trying to impart. "I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash

Firebolt145 Profile Joined May 2010 Lalalaland 12000 Posts #20 Please keep the completely unwarranted aggressiveness down in this thread. Moderator

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