BOULDER POLICE INTERVIEW

Interviewer: Boulder Police

Interviewee: Patsy Ramsey

Date of Interview: April 30, 1997

Interviewed At: Boulder District Attorney’s Office

Case: Hasson Ramsey

ST: Detective Steve Thomas

TT: Detective Tom Trujillo

PR: Patsy Ramsey

PB: Pat Burke

BM: Bryan Morgan

PH: Peter Hoffstrom

JF: Jon Foster

NOTE: This version has been prepared from a transcript provided to Global Reporting & Video, Inc. on October 10, 2002. Numerous inaccuracies in spelling, punctuation and other textual errors have not been corrected.

ST: Just sit down.

??: Okay.

ST: (Inaudible) so I’m going to keep half an eye on this as we, as we go this morning and, and Jon certainly let me know as you need to take a break to changes tapes or anything.

JF: Alright Steve.

ST: For the, simply for the record, uh, let me state today is Wednesday, April 30. 1997. The time is 9:05 a.m. My name is Steve Thomas. I’m a detective with the Boulder Police Department. Present in the conference room at the Boulder District Attorney’s office are myself, Detective Thomas Trujillo, Chief Trial Deputy Peter Hoffstrom, Mrs. Patricia Ramsey, Mr. Patrick Burke and Mr. Jon Foster. Just some quick introductory remarks and some housekeeping and we’ll get started here, but Patsy I want to speak specifically to you and tell you that we appreciate you coming to the table today, uh, and your involvement with this and our intention, and I can speak for myself and I think the other persons on this side of the table, is to establish some sort of ongoing dialog. And to that, uh, I think today as an important leap of faith for both sides and uh, I appreciate your comments of wanting to work with us and, and we desire that as well. As you know and as I’m sure Pat’s told you today, we’re going to ask some difficult questions as well as some easy questions and the difficult questions are simply necessary in a case like this and I think you can appreciate that and understand that and we’ll try to get through that as best we can and we’re very sensitive to this Patsy. I want to assure you of that. Uh, I have uh, and you don’t know me personally, but I’ve gone to bat for John’s two oldest kids, uh, John Andrew and Melinda, and despite what anybody thinks about me, I will continue to do whatever is necessary as will Tom and Pete to find the truth in this case and that’s what we’re all looking for. Uh, I will tell you that we will work this until we bring it to a successful conclusion and we will do that and to do that we desire your cooperation. Um, as necessary today Jon and Pat and Patsy, we’re pretty flexible. If you need to take a break or compose yourself, uh, if it’s lunchtime, whatever you need, we’ll work around those things. I think Tom’s going to start and he probably has uh, uh, maybe several hours of questions for you and I might jump in intermittently, but it’s a two way street and I, I’ll just turn it over to you Tom.

TT: Okay. Let’s just (inaudible) a little bit. Kind of tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, where you were born, kind of the nuts and bolts kinds of stuff.

PR: I was born in Parkersburg, West Virginia, November 29, 1956. I attended school there, uh high school. I, I was (noise of someone pouring water, Patsy’s voice is inaudible during that sound) college (inaudible) Charleston, West Virginia and (there is a very loud scraping sound which covers Patsy’s voice) short time (more background noise) and then I moved to Atlanta in the summer of 1979 and was working for McCann Erickson Advertising Agency (inaudible) And in 1980, November, I married my husband, John.

TT; Okay. So let me back you up just a bit. What high school did you, Parkersburg, Parkersburg High School right?

PR: Parkersburg High School.

TT: Okay. What kind of clubs were you in? What kind of activities did you do in high school?

PR: I was a cheerleader in the 10th grade. I was on the drill team my senior year.

TT: Drill team?

PR: Like a, like a dancing, with the band.

TT: Okay. Not like a . . .(inaudible)

PR: Pom pom kind of thing, you know, yeah, no.

TT: Okay.

PR: Um, I was in student government there.

TT: Did you hold an office those senior years?

PR: Uh, I don’t remember.

TT: Okay.

PR: I was president of the student body when I was in the 9th grade . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .in junior high school. And I was very active in the speech and debate team there and uh, participated regularly in that group.

TT: Where did you go to college at?

PR: West Virginia University.

TT: Okay. And you graduated from there.

PR: Yes.

TT: What was your degree in?

PR: Journalism.

TT: Okay. How’d you do with that? How’d you do in college with your journalism degree?

PR: I graduate Magna Cum Laude.

TT: Okay.

PR: And uh, my emphasis was in advertising so that’s what I did for a, some short time after I graduated.

TT; Okay. And you were Miss West Virginia, Miss America about what did year did all that happen?

PR: 1977.

TT: Okay. That’s during college.

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: Okay. Did any scholarships come out of that?

PR: Yes. I uh, there was some scholarship for winning Miss West Virginia. I can’t remember exactly how much and then at the Miss America pageant I won a non-finalist talent award and I think it was a $2,000 scholarship for that.

TT: I’ve got to ask which talent.

PR: (Laughter) “The Kiss of Death” dramatic dialog.

??: (Laugher)

ST: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.

PR: Your right.

TT; Was that, was that earlier?

PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.

ST: I bet.

TT: (Inaudible) Atlanta in ’79 and who did you live with down there?

PR: I lived with Dan and Claudia McCutcheon.

TT: Okay.

PR: Who had been friends from Parkersburg.

TT: Did you guys move down there together?

PR: Well, I went to Atlanta with Dan’s sister, Stephanie, who was my age.

TT: Okay.

PR: And we had been roommates in college for a year and we went down to visit her brother and sister-in-law . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .who had also gone to high school with us so we were all friend. And um, we went, I think initially for just a short visit and then came back a few weeks later to, and decided to move to Atlanta. Stephanie had gotten a job and, and I was still interviewing with advertising agencies.

TT: You (inaudible) get a job with Hayes Computers you think?

PR: No, I, that was much later.

TT: Okay.

PR: I had worked with McCann Erickson Advertising Agency.

TT: Okay, so you worked as an advertiser to start with.

PR: Right.

TT: When you first moved to Atlanta you lived in an apartment building?

PR: Um hum.

TT: Same place that John lived, is that right?

PR: Well we were, we were guests at Dan and Claudia.

TT: Okay.

PR: You know, kind of sleeping on the couch there.

TT: Okay.

PR: In a one bedroom apartment and John lived upstairs.

TT: Okay. Where was this apartment at? Do you have any idea . . .

PR: Where was it?

TT; Yeah. Do you know the address or anything?

PR: Uh huh. It was Post River Apartments on Talersbury road in Atlanta.

TT: Okay.

ST: Downtown Atlanta then?

PR: No, this was north . . .

TT: On the outskirts.

PR: . . .Atlanta. Marietta. Uh huh. But we were only there for just about a month actually . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .staying with then.

TT: All righty. Um, tell me about some of the TV shows you guys watch. You specifically. Uh, say in recent history, last, the last year. What kind of TV shows do you guys watch?

PR: I don’t watch TV much.

TT: Okay.

PR: You guys, who guys?

TT: You, John, Burke.

PR: Burke likes Discovery.

TT: Okay. Discovery Channel?

PR: He likes the Discovery Channel.

TT: Okay.

PR: And John likes the Weather Channel.

TT: Okay.

PR: He’s a pilot.

TT: Is this a, is that because he’s a pilot?

PR: Yeah. And he watches that, whatever the, you know the thing that runs across the bottom with the stock market . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: I don’t know what that is.

TT: Okay. What’s the. . .

PR: And he likes old movies.

TT: Okay. What’s the last book you read?

PR: Last book I read?

TT: Um hum.

PR: I am reading right now um, “At Home in Medford” by Jan Carran.

TT: Okay. What other kind of books do like to read?

PR: You know, I don’t read a whole lot, because I’m usually so tired by the time I go to bed.

TT: Okay.

PR: Um, uh, I’m just drawing a blank.

TT: Okay. Do you, do you get to the movies at all? Have you been out to see any shows at all?

PR: Oh, I have . . .

TT: I, I know it’s difficult in the last couple of months. . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .because of, of what’s (inaudible).

PR: Right.

TT: Let’s say before December, what kind of movies have you and John gone out to see?

PR: Well, actually we didn’t go out to movies very much, because we had a home theatre . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .so we would usually we’d see everything about a year after it came out.

TT: Once it came out on video.

PR: Yeah, but we, you know, the kids liked to watch movies up there . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .we watched “Forrest Gump” and . . .

TT: Do you and John watch movies at all up there?

PR: Uh, yeah, but I usually fall asleep. He, he usually goes, gets the movies and there not my favorites and I usually fall asleep.

TT: Okay. What kind of, what kind of movies did he, do you guys end up starting to watch.

PR: Um, he likes Mel Brooks (water being poured drowns out Patsy’s voice). He liked 1941. He loves animal House. I got him that for Christmas, and uh . . .

TT: So the kind of comedy type movies.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Okay. Patsy, are there any concerns in the neighborhood up there or have there been any concerns in the neighborhood up there (sound of flipping pages drowns out Tom’s voice.) . . .door to door salesman. Any of your neighbors talk about prowlers anything like that over the last six months?

PR: Uh no. Not that I recall. I mean we did have door to door sales people occasionally.

TT: Um hum. Magazine sales, the typical sales people come (inaudible) come through.

PR: Yeah, sometimes children, you know, like a, um, black children. I mean, they don’t look like they’re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like they’re from Denver and they have candy bars of (inaudible). . .

TT: Typical kind of door to door sales.

PR: Um hum and um, you know that’s the only thing I can recall.

TT: Okay. How close are you to your neighbors? I know the Whites and Fernies, they live away, but to the immediate neighborhood, the street you live on. How close are you to the neighbors?

PR: You mean close in distance or . . .

TT: Not too much specifically, do you know your neighbors?

PR: Do I know them very well. Well the Barnhills across the street . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .I know very well.

TT: Okay.

PR: Scott and Pricilla next door, I know fairly well.

TT: They live to the south of you.

PR: Well uh . . .

TT: is that towards Baseline?

PR: No the other way.

TT: Okay.

PR: Towards Cascade.

PR: Right.

TT: Alright. You and the neighbors on the block that you know or you talk to, socialize with at all?

PR: Not really very much, well Mary and Pat Van live down two doors . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .on the corner of Cascade and 15th. . .

TT: Same side of the street?

PR: Uh huh. But we didn’t, you know, I didn’t see them very often, but just to wave and . . .

TT: How often do you talk to the Barnhills or have you talked to the Barnhills in the past?

PR: Uh, I kind of keep, you know their elderly . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and I would kind of, you know every two or three days probably . . .

TT: Kind of keep in touch with them:

PR: Uh huh. They, they kept our dog a lot . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .when we went out of town or whatever. Joe was, last year about this time, around Easter time, he was quite ill with some respiratory stuff and I was taking groceries and dinners and . . .

TT: Kind of taking care them.

PR: Yeah. Kind of keeping my eye on him.

TT: Okay. In talking to them had they noticed any weird people around the neighborhood, anything like that in the last six months?

PR: No.

TT: Anybody that shouldn’t be? I know it’s, Boulder is real transient, I understand that . . .

PR: Um hum.

TT: . . .but, um, have you guys ever talked about any problems in the neighborhood, um, car break ins, anything like that?

PR: No, not that I can remem. . . (coughing) I think once the neighbors across the alley . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: Uh, they drive a black SAAB and I think a year or more ago they had had a, they were parking on 14th Street and they had a car break in and uh, consequently they build a, I think they build a deck on their house so that they could pull in under, you know, behind their house.

TT: So they could park in the back?

PR: Right.

TT: Do you need a glass of water?

PR: (Clears throat) This is, this is just right.

TT: (Inaudible) Okay.

PR: So.

TT: (Inaudible) And when we talk to you, everybody knows Patsy Ramsey pretty well, um, tell me about some of the enemies that you or your family might. Someone that we may need to look at. Can you think of any names that come up as far as people that don’t like you. Don’t like Patsy. Who don’t like the family at all.

PR: You know. If that’s the case, I’m not aware of it.

TT: Okay. Nobody’s talked about the problems that they’ve had with you?

PR: No.

TT: Okay. You know John’s been in, in the computer business for quite a few years.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Starting his own company, merging companies, stuff like that.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Up through the years, as the companies have merged together, any bad feelings between employees maybe getting squeezed out, um, anything like that that your aware of?

PR: Not that I’m aware of. I think, when, when they merged uh, to the best of my knowledge, when they merged to form Access, all the three companies that were merging all played a role somehow, you know.

TT: Um hum. No body (inaudible).

PR: Nobody got squeezed out I don’t think.

TT: Demoted anything like that. Moved out of top management positions or shuffled around at all?

PR: Not, not that I’m aware of no.

TT: Okay. Any problems when Access moved into, into Boulder from Atlanta. People that didn’t want to move to Boulder or anything like that that you are aware of?

PR: Um, no. Hum um.

TT: Okay.

ST: Um, Pat, let me jump in with one quick one on Access, uh, um, I was charged with investigative a lot of the aspects of Access employees that had been dealt with, a lot of the VPs over there and so forth . . .

PR: Um hum.

ST: . . .um, I was made privy to some information that there may be some sort of either IPO offering or management buyout. Uh, was anybody going to get hurt by that over uh, in the Access Corporate office. Was that going to hurt anybody that would . . .

PR: But, I don’t know what IPO is?

ST: And Initial Public Offering if they, if they took the company public, um.

PR: You know, I, I really don’t know anything about that.

ST: Okay. Fair enough.

PR: John didn’t really discuss. . .

ST: Okay.

TT: Bus . . .business matters with you.

PR: Not, no. Hum um.

TT: Okay. Patsy, I need to go through a couple of things here. What medications are you on right now? Are you still on Paxel?

PR: I’m on Paxel, um hum.

TT: How often do you take that?

PR: In the evenings (inaudible) once a day.

TT: Just a bedtime?

PR: Um hum.

TT: And, what’s the dose on that?

PR: 30 milligrams.

TT: And, are you taking anything else right now?

PR: I just started Monday taking something for this sinus infection. I know your going to ask me the name of it.

TT: Is it an over the, I’ll start (inaudible).

PR: No, it’s a prescription.

TT: Okay.

PR: You take it once a day for five days. Dr. Beuf prescribed it.

TT: Okay. And, are you taking anything else right now?

PR: Um, no.

TT: Any over the counter medication, vitamins . . .

PR: Vitamins. I’m taking vitamin C.

TT: Okay.

PR: (Inaudible) vitamin C.

TT: Just for that sinus infection?

PR: Right.

TT: Is that an ongoing type or just . . .

PR: Well, I just. . .

TT: (Inaudible)

PR: I just, since Monday started taking a lot of it.

TT: Okay. Okay. Um, any, any other uh, any other drugs, originally you were taking Paxel and what was the other drug you were taking? Lorzipan.

PR: Ah yeah, right.

TT: Are you still taking that at all?

PR: Uh, occasionally. Kind of as, on an as needed basis.

TT: When was the last time you took the Lorizpan?

PR: Uh, I took one last night about 6:30.

TT: How’s that, how’s that one make you feel. I mean, out of the two do any of them effect you at all that you can notice?

PR: I mean I don’t really notice anything, but I, usually I take the Adavan if I’m, I start getting, evenings are difficult for me.

TT: Um hum.

PR: When I start getting tired and I feel the onset of this, not feeling real good. Last night I was pretty, I just been missing JonBenet a lot lately.

TT: Okay.

PR: And uh, you know, it, it seems to, to kind of quell that . . .

TT: Takes the edge off a little bit.

PR: Takes the edge off a little bit.

TT: What kind of dose are you taking on the Adavan when you take it?

PR: Uh, a half milligram.

TT: Okay. Took it last night, how, about how many times a week are you taking that? Once, twice?

PR: Well, probably a couple.

TT: A couple of times a week is all?

PR: Yeah.

TT: Okay. The Adavan and the Paxel, um . . .

PR: The Paxel is an anti-depressant.

TT: Um hum. Either one of them, do you think either one of them’s kind of, uh, changing your thought process or clouding your mind, memory, anything like that?

PR: No.

TT: Okay. It’s not, not effecting any judgment or anything like that?

PR: No, huh uh.

TT: Okay. Um, I all this, I know with the sinus infection your probably not even thinking about it, um, have you taken any alcohol? How much alcohol . . .

PR: No. I don’t drink alcohol.

TT: Okay. Uh, do you drink alcohol at all?

PR: No. Not since I’ve been on the Paxel at all.

TT: Okay. When did you start the Paxel?

PR: Uh, I don’t know. February maybe.

TT: Okay. Beg…towards the beginning or the end of February?

PR: I can’t remember exactly.

TT: Okay. And the Adavan, did you start that about the same time?

PR: Simultaneously.

TT: Okay.

PR: One’s kind of a, I think one, is the way she explained it to me, one kind of works, takes awhile to start taking effect and the Adavan is kind of an on the spot, doesn’t last very long, but helps you.

TT: Okay. Now is Dr. Beuf still prescribing all that?

PR: No. Uh, Rebecca Barkhorn, that’s my doctor (inaudible)

TT: Okay. Um, around between thanksgiving and Christmas I know you guys traveled back and for the Atlanta quite a bit to see your folks and stuff. Um, between Thanksgiving and Christmas time, before Christmas, did you guys make some trips back and forth to Atlanta?

PR: We went to Atlanta, excuse me, at Thanksgiving.

TT: Um hum. What about after Thanksgiving before Christmas, any other trips to go back and see your mom?

PR: I, no, I don’t think so.

TT: Okay.

PR Not that I can remember.

TT: Um, I’m, going to talk about the medical stuff. I know you had cancer about three years ago?

PR: It will be four years in July.

TT: Okay.

PR: I was diagnosed.

TT: And you went out to Washington to take care of that.

PR: Bethesda, Maryland.

TT: Um hum.

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: Um, everything’s going okay with that?

PR: Yes.

TT: I know the stress . . .

PR: Thank God.

TT: I know the stress ca cause some problems with that. Are you doing okay with that so far?

PR: Yeah, I just had a checkup.

TT: Good.

PR: Everything was great.

TT: Good. Any other medical problems you’ve had other than the uh, the cancer.

PR: Um no.

TT: Any other surgeries? Spend time in the hospital, other than . . .

PR: At times (inaudible) when I was a child.

TT: Okay.

PR: Uh. I had a breast augmentation.

TT: Okay.

PR: You probably, did you know about that?

TT: (Inaudible)

PR: No the world will know.

TT: No. And actually uh, (inaudible) stuff like that, that staying here . . .

PR: Okay.

TT: . . .inside. That doesn’t get out. Um, when did you have that?

PR: Oh, 1982 or 3 or something like that.

TT: Okay, way back.

PR: And then I had, when I was finishing my chemo and they were doing a chest x-ray and uh, suspected a rupture, so I had (paper rustling covers Patsy’s voice) locally at the (inaudible) hospital I had my Poriocath taken out, which was where I took my chemo and he went in and checked and both breast, whatever those are . . .

TT: Right.

PR: . . .had ruptured . . .

TT: Right.

PR: . . .and so he repaired the . . .

TT: Okay. Spend any other time in the hospital?

PR: (Paper rustling. Patsy’s response is inaudible.)

TT: Patsy, kind of tell me about your, your normal, normal morning routines. You know, how do you get up in the morning? What time do you get up? Get up by alarm clock, the sun? Kind of walk me through what you do normally in the morning?

PR: Now or . . .

TT: Sure. Let’s start now and then we’re, we’ll work back. (Inaudible)

PR: Okay. Uh, now I get up usually a little before seven and uh, get Burke rallied and get him ready for school and get his breakfast and pack his backpack and make sure he has his homework done and tie his shoes and . . .

TT: Get him going?

PR: Get him out the door.

TT: Okay. After Burke gets ready do you get up and shower out and get ready to go for the day?

PR: Uh, sometimes. I mean, I don’t have much that I go . . .

TT: Okay. Don’t have a set schedule.

PR: . . .out to do lately, so . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: Sometimes go back to bed. Sometimes I get dressed.

TT: Okay. Let, Let’s hop way back before Christmas. Kind of walk me through a normal, normal morning for the family, for you guys.

PR: Um, get up and usually I would get up uh, and get showered and get dressed. I didn’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) get dressed before I got the kids up, but um, get the kids up and, Burke usually, you know, dresses himself if I kind of lay his things out and that kind of stuff, but I would get JonBenet dressed and do her hair and all that and . . .

TT: Get her ready for school.

PR: Get her ready for school. Breakfast.

TT: Okay. Did you have to use an alarm clock to get up or you . . .

PR: No.

TT: (Inaudible) hop out of bed . . .

PR: Yeah, I usually just (paper rustling) get up.

TT: Kind of hop out of bed in the morning person. Can’t do it.

PL: (Laughs)

TT: Not a morning person.

PR: If you get the kids off to school . . .(more paper rustling).

TT: You know John uh, John had some problems, kind of was in the hospital (inaudible) when you were going through cancer (inaudible due to background noise) treatments. How did that turn out?

PR: He had paracraditus.

TT: Um hum.

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: Kind of an inflammation around the heart?

PR: Right. And he had bee to Mexico and I will always believe he got something nasty in Mexico . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: Um, but he, one evening he was grabbing his chest, you know, and I said what’s the matter and he said, oh I have this little chest pain and I said well it must just be indigestion they said that if your having a heart attack your arms hurt and he said well, my arms kind of hurt.

TT: (Chuckle)

PR: In the car. So we took off to the hospital.

TT: Now was that here in Boulder or was that down in (inaudible).

PR: That was Boulder.

TT: That was in Boulder? Okay. How many days did he, did he spend overnight in the hospital.

PR: Uh huh. Yeah.

TT: Just one day in the hospital.

PR: Um, (paper rustling causing Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) one or two.

TT: Nothing permanent though.

PR: No. He took some kind of medication for it and that was (inaudible) . . .

TT: Strong antibiotics and all that and . . .

PR: Yeah. I can’t remember what the name of it was.

TT: Does John have any other major medical problems at all?

PR: No. Well, he had uh, he goes to Mayo Clinic regularly and uh, this past fall he had some prostate tests. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: Um, but those were all fine.

TT: Okay. So he’s in generally good health?

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: Okay. Other than the one or two days in the hospital um, for his paracaditis, any other stays in the hospital for John?

PR: Um, I don’t, not that I recall.

TT: Okay. Kind of a, who handles the finances for the family, the checkbooks, pays the bills, that kind of stuff?

PR: He does.

TT: Okay.

PR: Usually.

TT: John takes care of all that kind of stuff?

PR: Well, I have a checkbook that I write, you know, my kind of, the personal things, you know, like, whatever, housekeepers or household kind of stuff, you know, but, he usually does (inaudible).

TT: And that’s, particularly what your talking about, that’s, those kind of personal . . .

PR: You know like laundry . . .

TT: . . .housekeeping stuff.

PR: . . .and you know.

TT: Is that the checkbook you wrote the check to Linda Hoffman out of?

PR: Uh huh.

TT: Okay. And that’s uh, she was going to borrow $2,000 is that right?

PR: Right.

TT: On uh, the, on Friday the 26th? That’s when she was due back in the house. Christmas was Wednesday.

PR: Right. Oh yeah, I think that’s right, yeah.

TT: Okay. Do you remember if you ever wrote her a check for that $2,000, because I know she talked about it.

PR: Right. I don’t think I did, because I think, I was thinking about that as I walked down the stairs that morning, that I, oh, I’ve got to remember to leave that check.

TT: Okay.

PR: And then everything broke loose.

TT: Okay. She never picked it up or anything. She never stopped by later and got the $2,000.

PR: I don’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) left that day so I don’t know what happened.

TT: Okay.

PR: I mean I didn’t write the check, so.

TT: Okay.

PR: (Inaudible)

??: (Inaudible) on the break.

TT: Um, tell me about Burke’s normal bedtime routine before Christmas. How does, how does he normally go to bed.

PR: Oh, he, he um, usually does his homework and then puts his pajamas on and sometimes reluctantly and . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: He loves to watch Discovery so he tries to, but he’s suppose to be reading a half hour a night, so we would read to him a little bit or he would read to himself and so he was generally pretty good about going to bed.

TT: Okay.

PR: About 8:30 or so.

TT: (Inaudible) About what time does he . . .

PR: About 8:30, um hum.

TT: Burke also has a TV in his room, right.

PR: Well, the TV doesn’t really work. He used it for videos.

TT: Okay. He also, what kind of videos was he playing?

PR: He loves anything that has to do with airplanes. He has, you know, these flight instruction tapes and . . .

TT: They’re flight, like flight simulator that flies . . .

PR: No, mean like the real (inaudible) pilot tapes, you know, to learn how to fly.

TT: Oh.

PR: He like to watch those and.

TT: Okay. So he’s looking at doing that as a kind of a hobby or something?

PR: Oh yeah. He loves airplanes, like John.

TT: Patsy let me talk about some employees. And some of these you might not know. Um, maybe only John knows about them. I just kind of go with you some names and see if any of these ring a bell to you. Do you know Brian Perry at all? Does that name right a bell to you?

PR: (Whispers) Brian Perry. Um, no.

TT: Okay. What about a Reed Lindsley. Reed Lindsley.

PR: Reed Lindsley?

TT: Yeah. Does that name ring a bell to you at all?

PR: No.

TT: Okay. And actually something that I might ask for you, kind of at a later date, so that you don’t have to sit down and do that today. You guys have had quite a few construction workers or painters and . . .

PR: Yeah.

TT: . . .obviously carpet layers in the house.

PR: Right.

TT: Um, since we were in there. Is it possible to get a list of. . .

PR: Oh, since you were in there?

TT: Right. Since we were in there.

PR: Oh.

TT: Um, is it possible to get a list of construction workers or construction companies, contractors, that sort of thing, um, if you can sit down maybe at a later time and, and put together a list for us.

PR: Oh, you mean like that has done . . .

TT: (Inaudible) house.

PR: . . .things since you all took . . .I don’t know whose been doing that. Do you know whose been doing that? I don’t know who . . .

TT: Okay. Um, what I’m looking for is, kind of think of who all has been in your house since then (inaudible).

PR: Oh, okay.

TT: (Inaudible) contractor type people.

PR: Oh, I don’t know, but we could probably get that.

TT: Okay. That would be great. Um, do you know Ray Fitzgerald at all? Does that name ring a bell to you.

PR: Ray Fitzgerald? No.

TT: Okay. Um, you guys had a, a Foyer Group meeting back on the 13th.

PR: Right.

TT: You want kind of . . .

PR: What is that?

TT: What is the Foyer Group, yeah.

PR: The Foyer, it’s a Foyer dinner group from church . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .from St. Johns and um, they have small groups , kind of a dinner group assigned and you meet with that group throughout the year, usually like school year.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And you have dinner in each others home, but this particular, there are like dinner, individual dinner groups of maybe six to ten that meet in each others homes and then the entire Foyer Dinner Group which is made up several of these smaller groups. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .had a Christmas party at our house, so the entire group was invited.

TT: (Inaudible) the six to ten of that, six to ten couples or six to ten people?

PR: People.

TT: Okay.

PR: (Inaudible) Might be couples and singles.

TT: Right. So, about once very six months to ten months you rotate around to another house. Is that, to have dinner. Is that right?

PR: Right. Well, I think they have, they meet monthly, you know, and like if we’re all in a group we’d go to your house one month and my house one month . . .

TT: Right.

PR: . . .or whatever.

TT: Okay, and so about once a, once every five to six months you have a host of a group of a, a group six to ten people . . .

PR: At your house, right, uh huh.

TT: Okay. Now, is this just a dinner group, religious group . . .

PR: Well, they’re, they all go to St. Johns so their, you know. . .

TT: It’s not like you sit down and discuss the Bible while your eating dinner or anything like that.

PR: No, it’s more social. Yeah.

TT: It’s all social. Okay.

PR: Yeah, uh huh, yeah.

TT: About how many people were over at the house on the 13th?

PR: Oh, you know, 50 or 60 maybe.

TT: Okay. Quite a few then?

PR: Yeah.

TT: How many total, do you have an idea about how many total Foyer Groups there are? Are there about 10 groups then?

PR: Probably yeah. Well, no. I think there are more than that, but I think, you know, not everybody came.

TT; Okay.

PR: I know there are a couple of pages worth, I think. I don’t, I don’t remember ever having counted them exactly.

TT: Do, do you have a list of the people that were over to the house on the 13th?

PR: No, but Carolyn Blyley probably does.

TT: Over at St. Johns?

PR: Yeah, she’s, she put it together. She just called me and asked me if I would have it at our house and I think, you know, I wouldn’t have to do anything just have my house . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .she know I decorate a lot for Christmas and all that.

TT: So you were just kind of the host house. . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .invite everybody.

PR: Right. She sent the invitations and all that.

TT: Okay. Steve.

ST: No, go ahead.

TT: Okay. Patsy, tell me, let’s start with Burke. Um, tell me about some of the kids that he plays with. Tell me some of this playmates.

PR: Um, well, he is among a group of seven boys in his class.

TT: Okay.

PR: Uh, he uh, Doug Stine, plays with Doug Stine and . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .Luke Fernie are buddies and Anthony Pechio, from his class. Those are, Luke Fernie does not, goes to Mesa, but . . .

TT: Right.

PR: . . .he’s just a friend otherwise.

TT: Okay.

PR: Um, He played with the Colby boys which, who live behind us. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .in the alley, played with them.

TT: Okay.

PR: Quite frequently.

TT: So he had kind of two distinct groups, at school, social group and then the neighbor. . .

PR: Neighborhood.

TT: . . .social group?

PR: Right.

TT: Okay. Um, other than the two boys across the alley, I know from the neighborhood, there’s not a lot of little kids in there.

PR: Right.

TT: Um, any other kids that, that Burke would play with around the area?

PR: Well, sometimes, uh, Scott and Pricilla’s children from other marriages would be around. Weston, Wesson or Weston and uh, Reid is the little boy I think.

TT: Okay.

PR: And then on the other side of us is uh, Luke, whose older than Burke, but he always been around occasionally, you know.

TT: Okay.

PR: And that’s about all I think.

TT: Okay. What about some of JonBenet’s playmates? She had some in school?

PR: School mostly, yeah. Well, pre-school, Quinn Hasley was one of her best little girlfriends.

TT: Okay.

PR: And uh, Daphne White.

TT: Um hum. Did they all go to the same pre-school?

PR: Yeah.

TT: And that’s . . .

PR: First Presbyterian.

TT: Down of 15th and Canyon.

PR: Right.

TT: Is that right?

PR: Um hum, um hum.

TT: Okay. Okay.

PR: And uh, then this year in Kindergarten she like little Annie Smart and uh, Megan Kostinick. She liked them.

TT: Okay. Did these little girls ever come over to you, to your house to play?

PR: Um hum. Um hum.

TT: About how often would they come over?

PR: Oh, about once very couple of weeks maybe or so.

TT: Um, what about uh, Burke’s friends. How often did they come over to the house?

PR: Well, the Colby boys, you know, since they were neighborhood kids, they seemed to come over more frequently, because they just, more accessible.

TT: Um hum.

PR: Um.

TT: They’re the ones right behind you in the alley?

PR: Right. Oh, I don’t know. A couple of times a week maybe or . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .something like that.

TT: Okay. Patsy, we got a uh, got some information for a friend of yours down in Shreveport. You know anybody down in Shreveport, Louisiana?

PR: I don’t know anybody down in Shreveport.

TT: The name, that come up at all you guys know of?

PR: I think I heard something about it in the press or something, but I never have known anybody that I can remember in Shreveport.

TT: Okay. Um . . .

PR: Do you know the name? Do you guys have the name?

TT: I, I don’t have the name right off. I don’t have that.

PR: Maybe it’s somebody I knew that moved to Shreveport and I didn’t know that.

TT: Right.

PR: But I don’t . . .

TT: Don’t know of anybody that, recent friends that would have moved down there.

PR: No.

TT: Okay. Some of this stuff, may not be able to help us a whole lot. I’m kind of going back to access Graphics a little bit. Um, I think I need to touch on it again, but I will. Any concerns that John’s brought home from work about problems at Access (inaudible). Any employees other than the, we’ve got a couple of employees that you guys were talking about.

PR: Yeah.

TT: And that Ellis has given us.

PR: Yeah. Well, I uh, remember, I don’t know the time frame exactly, but this fellow named Jeff Merrick . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .who was, has known John for several years, I guess from, I think they worked together at AT&T when John was out of college or something like that, but he came to work at Access and was subsequently asked to resign, I think. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and I remember John and my dad, you know, works there too, that they were both concerned that he was, you know making threats. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .to Access and he didn’t go quietly in other words.

TT: Right.

PR: Uh, and that was, you know . . .

TT: Ellis gave us Jeff Merrick and Mike Glenn.

PR: Mike Glenn, yeah.

TT: Any other names that have come up that that you guys can think of?

PR: Uh, you know, I mean, you just, I mean we have done nothing but try to rack our brains over this . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .since this happened and uh, you know, John, I, John would probably know better about anybody at the office or anything, but just, I remember Merrick and uh, oh Jim Morino, I think we, we kind of, John kind of had him maybe at the top of the list. Um, and this Mike Glenn. And all three, I believe released or if I remember right.

TT: Okay. Now, mike and Jeff um, have they ever been to your home at all?

PR: Yes.

TT: Okay. When was the last time Mike was at your house?

PR: Oh, jeez, I can’t remember, you know, I, I mean they’d just been there. I know when we kind of first moved we were, it was when we, I remember we were remodeling the patio, so I don’t know when that was. A few years ago. I mean, sort of after we had moved, first moved in we, it was Fourth of July and we went with Mary and Mike and their little girl to Chautauqua Park over the Fourth of July . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: That’s what I remembered and then they came down and had hamburgers and then we walked down to the stadium for the fireworks.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And he dropped by a couple of times and brought John, this is before I think he even worked at Access.

TT: Okay.

PR: He would bring, he was with the football program. He brought John Colorado sweater one time.

TT: Okay.

PR: You know, I, I can’t, they haven’t been there anytime recently.

TT: Okay. Since Mike uh, left Access, ahs he been there at all?

PR: Uh, not to my knowledge.

TT: Okay. Um, sounds like he’s kind of dropped in every once and awhile. He wasn’t. . .

PR: Yeah.

TT: . . .wasn’t a frequent visitor at all to the house.

PR: Um, no. Hum um.

TT: Okay. What about Jeff Merrick? How, how often did he come by the house?

PR: Not very often. I remember he and his wife came by when I was under chemotherapy treatment and they uh, you know, we sat in the sun room and talked (inaudible).

TT: Okay, um. . .

PR: I mean they weren’t um, you know, they, we didn’t socialize with them or anything, you know.

TT: Right. Do you know when the last time Jeff was in the house? Would it been kind of the same length as Mike, quite a while back?

PR: It would be quite a while ago.

TT: Okay.

PR: As far as I can remember.

TT: Okay. Do you know the name Greg Neff at all. Greg, Greg Neff.

PR: No.

TT: Or Neef?

PR: Neef? No. Greg. . .

TT: Does that name ring a bell at all to you?

PR: No.

TT: Any other, and I know you guys racked your brains, not including Access, not including neighbors, any other names that have come up. I know Ellis has given us some.

PR: Well, I just, I mean, I, you know, poured out a list of everybody I could ever remember ever worked for us.

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .or, um, you know, we just, if he’s given you that list, I mean, we just . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .uh, you know, I mean, you just I can’t imagine that we know anybody that would do such a thing as this, you know, but, but whoever did this is just, mean, evil person.

TT: Okay.

PR: You know.

TT: Patsy, let’s um, let’s kind of go back to December 23rd. I know you had a party at your house, quite a few people at the house.

PR: Um hum.

TT: And I think I actually have a pretty good idea of who was all in the house . . .

PR: Um hum.

TT: . . .at that time, but kind of walk me through the party real briefly, um, you know a couple of people that were there. . .

PR: Um hum.

TT: . . .what kind of activities occurred, and who was in what parts of the house, that sort of thing if you would.

PR: Um. The 23rd we had uh, the Whites over and she had a lot of family in so they were all guests. Fleet and Pricilla and their two children and uh, her sister, Allison, and her boyfriend, Allison’s boyfriend, and I can’t remember his name, but. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .uh, (inaudible) guy and uh, Allison’s daughter, uh and I can’t, Heather, is her name.

TT: I’m going to stop us for just a second if I can. Excuse me Patsy . . .

PR: Okay.

TT: . . .because we need just an infrequent interruption.

JF: Are you gonna switch. . .

TT: Change tapes.

(End of Tape 1, Side A)

(Begin Tape 1, Side B)

PR: . . .and the Stines, Glen and Suisan Stine and their son, Doug . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and I think Susan’s mother was there and Glen’s mother . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .my father and let’s see, who else? Um, the Fernies, (inaudible).

TT: What did you guys do at the party?

PR: Uh, Joe and Betty Barnhill were there too.

TT: Okay.

PR: Um, we had dinner and Santa Claus came, Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus came and we, always had a little poem kind of thing. Give everybody a little gift from Santa.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And the kids decorated gingerbread houses.

TT: Okay.

PR: The poem you’re talking about is that what, I know, one of the pictures you have, uh, Santa’s reading. . .

PR: Right. A little . . .

TT: . . .out of a black book. . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .and that’s, who does the poem for that?

PR: Me.

TT: Okay. That’s the poem in the black book?

PR: Right.

TT: Okay. About how long, what time did the party start that night?

PR: Oh, I norm. . .uh, kind of early because I, if I remember I, Santa Claus had two engagements that night and so he came, I can’t remember whether it was like 5:30 or 4:30 or somewhere in there.

TT: So fairly early in the evening?

PR: Fairly early yeah.

TT: Okay. About what time did it break up?

PR: Oh, probably, I don’t know, nineish, 8:30 . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: Sometime like that.

TT: All right. Um, and this is when they, they decorated the little gingerbread houses. . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .and that kind of stuff. Okay. How do you, how do you decorate gingerbread hoses with that many little kids?

PR: Well, I bought the gingerbread houses at Safeway. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .all ready stuck together.

TT: Okay.

PR; Then I bought this huge big tub of frosting. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and Pricilla brought these frosting bags. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .or something like you decorate a cake with and I bought just bunches of jelly beans and M&Ms and all the, gum drops, you know, and al that stuff and the kids just . . .

TT: squirted it out and stuck . . .

PR: . . .squirted it out and stuck it on, you know, it was all over the place.

TT: I bet.

PR: That was. . .

TT: Quite the clean up job afterwards.

PR: That was fun.

TT: Okay. Did um, did Linda come, Linda Hoffman?

PR: Yes.

TT: Was she there also?

PR: Yes, and her daughter. She had helped me all day getting ready for the party and she stayed through Santa Claus.

TT: Okay. And did her husband show up that night?

PR: Uh, not to my knowledge.

TT: Um hum.

PR: I think she had her car and . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .I think she drove home.

TT: Okay. So she just stayed after, helping get stuff set up?

PR: Well she, yeah, she, she came, if I remember right, she came a little late that day cause, so she could stay, you know.

TT: Okay.

PR: On through the late afternoon and evening getting ready for the party.

TT: Okay. Um, did anybody else show up that night. White, Stines, Don Paugh and the Fernies, Barnhills, Mr. & Mrs. Claus, Linda and her daughter?

PR: I . . .

TT: Anybody else that you can remember that was over there that night?

PR: Um, well, John told me that this man came to the door looking for the Barnhills . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: I don’t remember seeing him, but John said he let him in. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and kind of showed him to the Barnhills. You know my dad said he remembers him, this man being there and I think my dad said he invited him to eat something and. . .

TT: Okay. So did uh, Betty and Joe Barnhills know him?

PR: Apparently, yes.

TT: (Inaudible) Okay. Alright. How are you doing? Do you want to take a break?

PR: Nope.

TT: Go to the bathroom or anything?

PR: No.

TT: Get a drink of water.

PR: No, I’ve got a little left, thank you.

TT: Got a little of your tea left. Okay. Patsy, let’s move over to the uh, to the 24th. I want you to start kind of, actually let’s go more towards the afternoon of the 24th. That would be the 24th of Christmas Eve. The kids are all excited. Kind of run me through that in the same fashion. What did you guys do?

PR: Well we um, uh went to church, the family church service which was at four or 4:30 . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .something like that. And uh, after that we went to Pasta Jay’s for dinner. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And then we drove around town looking at Christmas lights and we drove up to the star up on the mountain there and um, I remember JonBenet was miffed because we wouldn’t let her get out and she wanted to walk up into the star . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: And uh, she just had her little velvet Sunday school shoes on, you know, so she was, she said, ‘Well, what’s the use coming up here if you can’t even go up to the star.’ Um, so then we came down, down from the star and we wound around by the White’s house and uh, I think, and we went in there for a few minutes and uh, then we went home.

TT: Okay.

PR: And, you know, got everybody ready for bed.

TT: Okay. About what time (inaudible).

PR: Oh, gee, I don’t know.

TT: Okay.

PR: I don’t know exactly.

TT: Okay. Um, go home, go to bed.

PR: Early evening.

TT: Okay. Early evening?

PR: Um hum.

TT: Go home, got ready for bed um, where did everybody sleep that night?

PR: Well, JonBenet was in her bed in her room. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and Burke was in his bed and we slept in our room.

TT: Okay. Do you have an idea if JonBenet moved over towards Burke’s room at all that night. Slept in his room?

PR: Um, I can’t remember, can’t remember.

TT: Okay. Is that something that she would normally do?

PR: No.

TT: Sleep in Burke’s room. I know everybody’s got, you got, they both have two beds in their rooms.

PR: Yeah, right um, I don’t think so. I just can’t remember.

TT: Okay. How about December 25th, Christmas day. How did that start out? Who got up first and that sort of thing?

PR: Uh, well, the kids came up and woke us up and John went down, he went to get everything ready, you know, get the lights on, get the music on, you know. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .uh, I think he, he said he had, he brought he, Santa Claus Brought me a bicycle so he had to go get that under the tree. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and then we all went down and, into the living room. That’s where we had the Christmas.

TT: Okay. Big tree in the living room. Okay. Because I know there’s kind of trees all over.

PR: Right.

TT: What, what do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th.

PR: I the basement. I had them all in the basement.

TT: Okay. Because there were some extra Christmas presents. Who were they for? Do you remember?

PR: Well, I had, I had some uh, bagged up and kind of ready to go up to the lake.

TT: Okay.

PR: We were going to the lake the 26th.

TT: Um hum.

PR: Michigan. And I had Melinda’s and Stewart’s and John Andrew’s.

TT: Okay. Those were the presents that were down in the cellar still?

PR: Uh. There were probably were some down there.

TT: Okay.

PR: I don’t know when you mean down still.

TT: Um, on the 26th there was still some presents downstairs.

PR: When, uh, I was, if there were I don’t remember, I had them kind of. . .

TT: Kind of all over the place?

PR: . . .you know, all over, yeah. And I had, uh, I know I had a (Lego?) set down there that I had gotten for Burke’s birthday which was in January, so I. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .I had that there kind of back, held back.

TT: Okay. Why don’t you walk me through the rest of the 25th. What all did you guys do that day?

PR: Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and the kids were playing with there toys and the Colby kids were over and some other little new kids that moved in a couple of doors up uh, where the Whites had. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .rented a house two doors up the hill.

TT: Towards Baseline?

PR: Towards Baseline.

TT: Um hum.

PR: Uh, south I guess that is. Um, there were just kids all around, you know, they all playing with all their stuff and . . .

TT: Quite a few kids in the house, around the house?

PR: Yeah, right.

TT: Okay. And then about what time did you guys go over to the White’s house that night?

PR: Um, um, dinner timeish, you know, five or six or something like that.

TT: Al right. What did you guys do at the White’s house, kind of, how many people were over there?

PR: Well, that whole group of her family was still there. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and uh, you know what? I think Heather did not come to our party cause she was, had a cold, but she rallied and was there for dinner at Fleet’s house.

TT: Okay.

PR: Um, so, you know, all of them were there.

TT: Okay.

PR: And we. . .

TT: (Inaudible)

PR: . . .were all there, yean.

TT: About what time did you get home from the Whites that night?

PR: Well, we stopped a couple of places on the way home to drop off Christmas gifts.

TT: Okay.

PR: By the Walkers and the Stines.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I imagine it was about nineish, something like that.

TT: Okay. Sometime, nine, after nine, something like that?

PR: Some, yeah.

ST: (Inaudible) um.

TT: Question?

ST; Uh, quick quick question. Give me some more detail Patsy, if you will, on, on the daytime and afternoon of the 25th. Um, we sort of moved quickly to that evening but, but uh. . .

PR: Yeah.

ST: . . .walk me through that day.

PR: Well, we opened our presents and uh, try to have them do it slowly so it doesn’t it’s not over with in five minutes, you know, and we all opened our things and then we had breakfast and uh, I was packing, as well as wrapping gifts that day. We were, we were going to go to the lake on the 26th so I was putting a few things together for that trip and um, and trying to get the presents together to take up there and then I was packing our suitcases to go, we were going to go on a Walt Disney cruise on. . .

ST: Big Red boat?

PR: Bid Red boat. On my birthday, the 29th. So I was, had summer clothes, trying to get all that ready, so uh, and packing and uh, I think I colored my hair that afternoon, like with one of those quick, you know, uh. . .

ST: Everybody stayed home the whole day. No trips out on the 25th prior to going to the Whites?

PR: Uh, John, I think went out to the airplane to kind of, he always kind of checks, checks it out.

ST: Prior to a flight?

PR: Yeah. So he went out there that afternoon and the kids were just in an out playing and playing with their, JonBenet was making this little jewelry things and Burke had this car that he was playing with.

ST: So you and the kids were home the whole day . . .

PR: Yes.

ST: . . .prior to going to the Whites and John returned from his short outing. . .

PR: Right.

ST: . . .uh, and that was his only trip out that day?

PR: As best I can remember. Yes.

ST: And now I’ll let Tom take it again from (inaudible).

TT: Actually let’s take about five minutes.

PR: Take a five minute break?

TT: Yeah.

PR: Okay, great.

TT: You need a glass, glass of water?

PR: Yeah, that would be great.

??: (Inaudible)

??: And just for the purpose of the tape, for the purpose of the tape we’re going to, we’re going to take a break at 10:05.

(BREAK)

PR: . . .what that is.

??: Okay.

PR: Call your . . .

??: Give me a call back?

PR: Yeah.

??: That works.

PR: I don’t (inaudible) true confessions.

??: (Laughter)

ST: Patsy, I’m going to jump back just a little bit and then we’ll come back to the 25th, but uh, for the record we’re back on the tape at about 10:17 a.m., uh, Patsy, one of the things certainly that we’ve taken a great deal of interest in and looked at is uh, John’s bonus and I familiar with uh, a lot of that a gross amount minus some FICA and taxes and so forth, roughed out to equally the $118,000. To the best of your knowledge, anywhere in the home, was that information available or displayed?

PR: I, I do not know.

ST: Okay. How immediate did it come to your mind or John’s mind uh, that that uh, amount of money asked for in the ransom note roughly equaled John’s bonus? Were you aware of that on the morning of the 26th?

PR: Was I, was I aware of what now?

ST: The bonus amount equaling. . .

PR: I was not aware that, I, I didn’t know that he had gotten a bonus.

ST: Okay.

PR: Or that that, he takes care of all that stuff and I didn’t know, I think at some time that morning he, I remember him saying that that might be close to a figure that was a bonus that he had gotten, but. . .

ST: Okay. I’m assuming his salary, and I don’t know if you know this, was to $118,000. Do you know what John’s salary was in relation to a bonus being $118,000?

PR: I don’t know any of that.

ST: Are you not privy to any of the financial information in the household.

PR: Well, I’m sure I’m privy. I can see it if want to, but . . .

ST: Okay.

PR: . . .I just. . .

ST: Okay. That’s not your day to day affair?

PR: That’s not my day. . . no.

ST: Okay. I certainly have chased leads far and wide on SBTC and has that, and over the last four months, brought anything to mind?

PR: No.

ST: Have you had any time to think of any theories of significance of what that acronym uh, might relate to? I’ve heard everything from Smyrna Bank and Trust, Southern Bell telephone Company to uh, everything under the sun, uh, any thoughts on that Patsy?

PR: I mean, I have racked my brain, I mean, if you say, is, have I spent any time on this, I have, you know, I can, I don’t have a clue what that is.

ST: Can you throw anything, you can’t throw anything out on the table for what that might be a . . .

PR: (Inaudible)

ST: You mom thinks it’s son of a bitch Tom Carson.

PT: (Inaudible)

ST: It certainly was, you know, thoroughly checked Tom Carson out. . .

PR: Um hum.

ST: . . .but. . .

PR: Yeah, she told me that too.

ST: Was there a problem with Tom Carson and John Ramsey.

PR: Not that I’m aware of um, that, you know might be something you can ask him. . .

ST: Um hum.

PR: . . .I, you know, I just really don’t know much about what goes on at work.

ST: How about, uh, uh, certainly we, we’ve chased a lot of things locally, but were there ever any Charlevoix concerns or concerns in the greater Atlanta area as you live there or continue to have ties there that you’ve thought of that we might be aware of? Any, anybody, zealots, nuts, fanatics in Charlevoix uh, any bad business dealings, bad neighbor dealings, anything at all?

PR: Um. . .

ST: The Northridge home, uh . . .

PR: No, I mean, there was one incident in uh, Charlevoix that, and you can ask John more about this, but, um, he was getting ready to do this yacht race to Mackinaw Island and this fellow, and I can’t remember his name, was going, you know they had to have six, I think a, six or eight people on the crew or something and one of the guys, one of the people on the race had to have done the race before, that was one of the boat rules or race rules or something like that and this guy that they, from the Charlevoix boat store or something like that was going to be, his name was Tim something, Tim, I think is was Tim something, was going to be on the race with them, and they were all suppose to meet in Chicago. Fleet White was going to be on the race and a couple of these buddies of Fleets from California and John and Melinda and John Andrew and then this guy from Charlevoix. Tim Mur. . .Murtock, Murtaugh, or something like that was going to meet them over in Chicago. Well, they were over there the day before the race and it was hotter than blazes that day and this guy never showed, never showed and I remember trying to down his wife. I called his wife and said, you know, where is, where is he. They’re waiting for him, you know, to qualify for this race or whatever and she said well he’s in Chicago, you know, that’s what he told me and he never did show up on that race. Now, I don’t know why he didn’t do that, but they almost, you know, they were pretty, he, John and Fleet were miffed over that. And they had to take a, this woman crew member, you know, which is kind of a, you know, walks around say does anybody need a crew, anybody need a crew, (inaudible) and they said yeah and she happened to have done this race before so they qualified, but that guy, you know, never did show up. Tim Murtock.

ST: How about Atlanta. Can you think back, days in Atlanta and Northridge and (inaudible) and I know, again, you’ve racked you brain and I’m sure you would have forwarded that to us, but anything today that comes to mind.

PR: No, um, no.

ST: Patsy, one of the things that, that I’m, certainly have to ask you about is we try to think of who would have had any reason or intent or motive to have done something like this and what might have pushed them to do something to do this would be terribly strong feelings and um, uh, have there and I need to ask you this, um, has there been any spurned or scorned lovers or infidelities in your marriage to John, uh that we need to look at as a, as a possible actor in this?

PR: No, absolutely not.

ST: And, and let me ask that another way. Have there been any infidelities in your marriage to John.

PR: No.

ST: Are you aware of a woman in Tucson claiming to have had an affair with John.

PR: Um hum.

ST: And what’s your response to that?

PR: She’s an extortionist.

ST: Okay. One person that we have not been able to run down, that I certainly want to exhaust in this ting is uh, a woman who Lucinda revealed to us is having had an affair with John that ultimately lead to the dissolution of their marriage. Um, that was some time ago, but, um, I think people have been reluctant to share that with us. Do you know who this person was?

PR: No, I’m not aware of anything like that.

ST: Are, are you aware of prior to today, because I had to ask Nedra and Pam and Paulie and uh, if they were aware of this person, while we were in Georgia so we could find her, and make sure she’s not some kook that laid in wait for 20 years. . .

PR: Um hum.

ST: . . .um, is today the first time you’ve been made, made aware of this woman?

PR: I don’t know of any woman with, I don’t know anything about this, no.

ST: Okay. Are you aware that John had some sort of infidelity according to Lucinda?

PR: No (Inaudible).

ST: Okay. So you certainly wouldn’t know this woman’s name then?

PR: No.

ST: And you’re not in a position so I’ll ask John if he’ll share that with us. Let’s get off that for a minute and I’m going to let Tom take you back into the 24th and 25th.

TT: Okay. Actually, let’s start back on the morning of the 25th, um let’s kind of break it down into small hours. What time did you guys get up that morning.

PR: Early.

TT: Okay.

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: Before sunrise?

PR: Sixish probably.

TT: Okay. Patsy, take me through say the first three hours of, of Christmas morning with you and John and Burke and JonBenet. Kind of, kind of in a by minute, step by step of what you guys did for the first couple or three hours.

PR: Well, we went down the stairs and passed out Christmas presents.

TT: About how long did it take you to pass out Christmas presents? I know you talked about you kind of did it slowly. . .

PR: Yeah.

TT: (Inaudible)

PR: Right.

TT: About how long did that take?

PR: I don’t know. Hour, maybe.

TT: Okay. Um. . .

PR: I mean to pass them out and opening them. I try to get everybody to take turns, you know. Of course, their piles are bigger than my pile so . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .they open two or three and then I open one. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .just, you know.

TT: Okay.

PR: Cause I take so long to open mine.

TT: You want to savor the moment for a little bit.

PR: Right. Um hum.

TT: What was John wearing when you guys came downstairs that day? What kind of clothing was he wearing?

PR: His pajamas and his robe probably.

TT: Okay. What were you wearing that day?

PR: Pajamas and my robe.

TT: Didn’t get cleaned up or showered or anything like that?

PR: No, no, no, no, kids won’t let you do that.

TT: All righty. Um, what, what are the kids wearing?

PR: Pajamas.

TT: Okay. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?

PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.

TT: Okay.

PR: knit kind of stuff.

TT: Okay. Do you remember what color of pajamas he was wearing that day?

PR: That he was wearing?

TT: Um hum.

PR: No, not exactly.

TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .

TT: Tops and bottoms.

PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.

TT: Okay. Take you back how to open presents between seven, 7:30, what did you guys do after you open the presents up.

PR: Uh, I think we made pancakes.

TT: Okay. Had some breakfast? Um, about how long did it take to eat breakfast?

PR: I don’t know, a half hour.

TT: Okay.

PR: Seemed like that.

TT: After, after breakfast how did the family split. What did you guys do?

PR: Oh, the kids were just playing with their stuff, you know, and I was, I don’t remember exactly.

TT: Okay.

PR: I was, you know, trying to get clothes ready to go two different places. I remember that.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And then a bunch of kids started showing up to, you know, they want to see what each other got and, you know. Burke set up his Nintendo. Nintendo 64 and . . .

TT: During the early morning hours, the morning hours before the kids got there, did everybody go and get dressed I take it?

PR: At some point in the day, yeah.

TT: Okay. Uh, everybody take showers and baths and everything to get cleaned up for the day.

PR: I don’t remember. Doubt if the kids did. I don’t remember.

TT: Okay.

PR: They’re not interested in baths usually.

TT: Okay. So everybody just got dressed and then kids started coming over to the house?

PR: Right.

TT: During the day, about what time did uh, John go down to the hanger and check on the plane?

PR: Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know, lunch time, after lunch, I, I don’t remember.

TT: Okay. Did you have lunch that day?

PR: I’m sure we did.

TT: Okay. Do you have any idea about, what did you have for lunch.

PR I don’t remember.

TT: About how long was John gone when he went out to check the plane?

PR: Oh, probably a couple of hours.

TT: So he left about noon, afternoon sometime. Gone till two, 3:00 in the afternoon?

PR: Um, yeah.

TT: Okay. And were there, there kids over to the house that whole time playing with John, excuse me, JonBenet and Burke?

PR: Uh, a better part of that day I would say.

TT: Okay. And who all, who all was over to the house that day.

PR: Um, Evan and Ky Colby and um, these new little kids from up the street.

TT: Okay.

PR: I don’t know their names.

TT: Are they uh, a little girl and little boy or two little girls, two little boys?

PR: Uh, I know there were two little girls. One girl was kind of foreign looking sort of like she might be adopted or something and the other little girl was uh, I can almost remember her name? Seems like it starts with an M or I don’t remember.

TT: Okay.

PR: There were just a lot of, they were inside, outside.

TT: Okay.

PR: Playing with those, a bunch of the boys had gotten those cars, you know, the remote control and they were all out playing with those.

TT: Okay. Did uh, did Burke and JonBenet play together during that time? Did the little girls and little boys mix up at all?

PR: Yeah.

TT: Play together.

PR: Yeah they were all, yeah, a lot of them were in Burke’s room playing that Nintendo and she was, I remember coming up there and checking on them and they were, the boys were mostly sitting around playing the Nintendo and she was, had this little jewelry making kit right there in the, in the doorway of Burke’s room there making . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .so I made a couple with her. Um. . .

TT: Okay. During the time that John was gone, was that when you were wrapping the gifts and trying to get all the suitcases packed . . .

PR: Stuff ready, right, uh huh.

TT: . . .and stuff ready to go. Okay. And you wrapped the gifts downstairs?

PR: yeah.

TT: Okay. About how many gifts were you wrapping that day to get ready to go?

PR: Oh, I don’t know. A couple of shopping bags full..

TT: Okay. This is for John Andrew and Melinda. . .

PR: And Melinda and Stewart. Melinda’s boyfriend was going to be up there too.

TT: Okay. Where were you packing the suitcases there?

PR: Um, the suitcases for the cruise I think I was packing in John Andrew’s room which is that room up on the same area as JonBenet’s room.

TT: Um hum.

PR: With the black bedspread on it.

TT: Okay. That’s John Andrew’s room?

PR: Yeah.

TT: Okay.

PR: We refer to it as his room.

TT: Um hum.

PR: Um, the guest room, whatever. Um, I had two or three black suitcases in there and I think I had my suitcase up in my dressing room. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .packing.

TT: And were you packing suitcases for the trip to the lake separately or was that all together?

PR: No, it’s not together.

TT: Okay.

PR: Those were two separate trips. The lake I think I was just packing a plastic bag.

TT: Okay.

PR: Because we have clothes up at the lake and uh, just taking a few. . .

TT: Okay, where, was, where were you packing the plastic bag at?

PR: Um, if I remember right, I think it was uh, in the laundry room area, right outside JonBenet’s room.

TT: Okay. About what time did you guys end up heading towards the White’s house that night?

PR: Oh, about dinner timeish, five or six or something like that.

TT: Okay. Say between. . .

PR: This is on the 25th right?

TT: Right.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Say between three and six, by the time John gets home before you leave for the Whites, what kind of activities were you guys doing. What kind of, what was the family doing at that time?

PR: Um, I don’t remember. I just remember I was trying to get clothes ready for four people to go in two different places.

TT: Um hum.

PR: Uh, and the kids were playing then I, you know, got them dressed and then we, they were in play clothes and so we changed and got cleaned up to go over there.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I think I colored my hair. I think I told you that.

TT: Um hum. So that was in the afternoon?

PR: Yeah.

TT: Okay.

PR: And, and JonBenet, uh, you know, was getting cleaned up and. . .

TT: Okay. Did John help you get packed up at all?

PR: Uh, he, I believe, put some presents in the, in the Jeep.

TT: Okay. But he didn’t. . .

PR: Not the clothes.

TT: . . .pack his own clothes or anything like that?

PR: Oh, he probably would have packed his own clothes (inaudible) stuff.

TT: Okay. And do you know where he had that suitcase at that he packed his clothes at? Was that in the uh, John Andrew’s room?

PR: Um, no. It would, it would have been in his probably.

TT: Okay.

PR: I, I think I just had a couple of suitcase, the kids suitcases on the bed there, Burke’s and JonBenet’s.

TT: Okay. So you had Burke’s and JonBenet’s suitcases in John Andrew’s room, your suitcase was upstairs and John’s would have been upstairs too then.

PR: The best that I can remember, yeah.

TT: Okay. Right. You left, left for the Whites about five, 6:00, um, family of the Whites over there. Any other friends that weren’t related to the Whites or, or your family. Any other people over there at the White’s house that night?

PR: Uh, I don’t recall.

TT: Okay. So everybody’s, everybody’s pretty much related to the Whites.

PR: Right.

TT: Was this kind of a spur of the moment or was it planned to go to the White’s house that night?

PR: It was planned to go there.

TT: Yeah.

PR: We had gone there last year, Christmas dinner.

TT: Okay. So it was kind of a, a yearly event then. Everybody was (Inaudible). . .

PR: Well now it was, second time if you call that. . .

TT: Starting to (inaudible).

PR: . . .saying to become yearly.

TT: Okay. Who all did you let know that you were going over to the Whites? Did you let the Barnhills know or anybody like that?

PR: Uh, I don’t remember. I think I, seems like I did call Betty that day to see if they had anybody over there with them or, you know, if they were okay or. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .and I may have told her that we were going. I don’t remember exactly.

TT: Check to see if anybody had come over to visit the Barnhills.

PR: Yeah. I just wanted to make sure they had something to eat and all that cause. . .

TT Okay. About what part, what part of the day did you call Betty to make sure she’s okay?

PR: Um, sometime that afternoon.

TT: Okay. Okay. What did, what did you do at the White’s house that night?

PR: We um, had dinner. I called Fleet’s mother, Fleet called his mother and I talked to her. She was ill. She was usually there, because Christmas is her big, she likes Christmas.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And um, she was ill and I talked to her for quite some time.

TT: Okay. Where does she live at?

PR: She, there from California, but they have a residence in Aspen.

TT: Okay.

PR: And she was in Aspen.

TT: Okay. So give me kind of a step by step, get to the Whites 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 whatever, what time did you have dinner that night? What did you do before dinner after dinner?

PR: Well, we had um, I think we had cocktails, kind of, she had some cracked crab left over from their Christmas even dinner and we sampled some of that and I remember she kind of, for some reason, made a little plate for JonBenet or I remember her making a special plate for JonBenet for some reason so she would have some crab. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .cause my kids like seafood and uh, we nibble on that and I uh, we had dinner and I can’t remember what we had.

TT: Okay. Was it like a buffet, sit down, what kind of dinner was it?

PR: I just, I just, I don’t know. I can’t remember.

TT: Okay. Was it a formal plates around the table type. . .

PR: Well, we had, she usually puts up several tables in her living room. She had several tables in her living room, in her dining room. Just were, thee were a lot of us there and uh, we sat at the table, you know, she had a place for everybody.

TT: Okay.

PR: And uh, she had little gifts for the kids. They had these little paper jewelry things that JonBenet and Daphne got and um. Fleet and John were down on the floor helping them make those.

TT: Okay.

PR: Jewelry things.

TT: Okay. About how long did you stay at the White’s house?

PR: Oh, several hours, you know, I, something like 9:00 or so, eight.

TT: Okay.

PR: Eight or nine. We had to get up early so we didn’t. . .

TT: Stay out too late?

PR: . . .stay really late.

TT: Okay. So, other than the dinner with the little gifts, any other social activities go on that night, caroling or just socializing? What else happened?

PR: Uh, I think some carolers came. Some neighbors came to the door caroling and Fleet, big Fleet and little Fleet, I think went out with them for a little bit. Um, maybe Daphne went with them.

TT: Okay.

PR: Maybe, I don’t know. I think some of them went out and sang a little bit with them and . . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .came back in.

TT: JonBenet and Burke go out with them to carol?

PR: I just can’t remember.

TT: Okay. Got home about 8:30, 9:00. What’s the fist thing you guy do when you got home that night? Actually, let me step back. Before you got home you went over to . . .

PR: Walkers and dropped of a little gift.

TT: Okay.

PR: And Stines and dropped off a little gift and drove home and JonBenet was asleep. She had fallen asleep in the car.

TT: Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or. . .

PR: Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room.

TT: Okay.

PR: And I uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can’t remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and uh, went in the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and put those on.

TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she ww3earing actually to the White’s house like?

PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pant, cause I was wearing black velvet paths and it was Christmas and all that.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .

TT: Kind of a crew neck?

PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.

TT: Okay.

PR: So I just left that on her.

TT: Okay. And I’m sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants. . .

PR: They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest.

TT: And what were you wearing Patsy, a, a red turtleneck and black. . .

PR: Velvet jeans, yeah.

TT: Okay.

PR: Velvet pants. And I have a Christmas sweater I was wearing.

TT: And what color was that?

PR: Red with all kinds of . . .

TT: And that was over the turtleneck.

PR: Yeah.

TT: Okay. Okay. What did, what did Burke wear over to the White’s house that day?

PR: Oh, I don’t remember. I don’t remember.

TT: Okay. What about John? Remember having any idea what he wore that day?

PR: Um um. Unless I try to match us up I can’t remember.

TT: Okay. Formal, informal?

PR: Oh, it was casual yeah.

TT: Okay. Jeans type thing?

PR: Oh. . .

TT: (Inaudible)

PR: . . .no, no, I think it probably, I would have him probably him a khakis or something a little cleaned up.

TT: Okay. What did JonBenet wear on the night of the 25th with her little outfit as wear as, as far as shoes go, her footwear?

PR: Probably the, I don’t remember exactly, but she had these little black boots with zip up front that kind of went with that outfit. That’s what she normally wore with that, so I think she probably wore those, but I can’t remember exactly.

TT: When you say you wore black velvet jeans were those like a, a, were they a jean material like a 501?

PR: No they’re, no, no, no. They’re black velvet.

TT: Okay.

PR: But they’re not dress pants they’re. . .

TT: Did you wear uh, uh, flats or, or . . .

PR: Shoes you mean?

TT: . . .boots, or, what did. . .

PR: Oh yeah.

TT: . . .you have for footwear.

PR: Uh, I don’t remember. I don’t remember exactly.

TT: Okay.

PR: Black something probably.

TT: Black something?

PR: Black.

TT: To go with the black belt?

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: So John carries JonBenet upstairs, puts her to bed. You pull up the bed sheets. You find this top for her to wear or you just. . .

PR: We just left her top on her.

TT: . . .you leave the top on. . .

PR: Yeah.

TT: . . .uh, find a pair of. . .

PR: bottoms.

TT: . . .bottoms for her to wear. Um, did she wake up at all during this?

PR: No.

TT: Stayed pretty crashed out?

PR: Uh huh.

TT: Okay. Sounds asleep the whole time then.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Okay. Sound asleep the whole time then?

PR: Um hum.

TT: Okay. What did Burke do? Did he fall asleep on the way home also?

PR: No.

TT: Okay.

PR: He didn’t. I think he was, he’s still wanting to play.

TT: Okay. What did Burke do when you got home then.

PR: Um, I don’t remember exactly, but I think he went to go play with something. I think maybe he and John were fussing with something. A toy he wanted to put together or something.

TT: Okay.

PR: I was trying to finish putting together things for in the morning and. . .

TT: Okay. Finish kind of packing, again the suitcases on the bed. Were they all finished, packed up?

PR: Um, probably pretty close to it.

TT: Okay. And then the close to go to Charlevoix those were. . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .in a plastic bag.

PR: Plastic bag. Um hum.

TT: And they were already to go? You said you carried down to (inaudible).

PR: Yeah.

TT: Okay. Burke and John go downstairs to play?

PR: No, I don’t really, don’t remember where they were. I was, after I got her ready for bed I just kind of ran about doing my last minute things and. . .

TT: Okay., What kind of last minute things did you have to take care of?

PR: Well just, you know, presents. I mean, I put some presents by the back door and I don’t remember exactly, just things to go to the lake or, and so we’re doing a couple of, you know, getting things ready cause we were leaving so early in the morning. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .getting things kind of laid out ready to go and that kind of thing.

TT: Okay. Do you have clothes laid out for JonBenet to wear in the morning? Did you lay her clothes out?

PR: Uh, I don’t remember laying them out, no.

TT: Okay. What about Burke? Same thing with him. Did you lay his clothes out or anything for the morning?

PR: I don’t remember dong that.

TT: About what time did you head up to bed that night?

PR: Um, probably around 9:30, 10:00 something like that.

TT: Okay. Um, did you guys try to wake up JonBenet at all or did she. . .

PR: She was zonked.

TT: Sound asleep. Didn’t wake up at all?

PR: Um hum.

TT: Was she awake at all when you were over at the Stine’s house?

PR: Uh, well, I just went to the door. We didn’t all go in. I just went to the door. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and gave them a basket of something. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .for a Christmas present or something. We were going, I remember, cause I had a big basket in the car to take to the Fernies, but since JonBenet had fallen asleep and it was getting kind of late. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .I think we just decided not to go to the Fernies.

TT: Okay. I think we need to change tapes as well. Let’s just take 30 seconds here real quick.

(End of Tape 1, Side B)

(Begin Tape 2, Side A)

ST: You all set Jon? Okay, Tom. I’m sorry.

??: (Inaudible) set the tape.

ST: Yeah and uh, just for the transcriptionist, this is Tape 2, Side 1.

TT: Patsy, do you have any idea what time uh, Burke went to bed that night then? (Inaudible) him and John playing someplace?

PR: Yeah, they, yeah, I don’t know exactly.

TT: Okay. What time did John go to bed that night? Do you remember hearing him come upstairs at all.

PR: Yeah. I remember him coming to bed. I don’t know what time it was. It was shortly after I came to bed.

TT: Okay. That night were you able to sit up and read after you kind of took care of things. Get things ready in the morning. Go up to your room. Do you have any time to read at all that night?

PR: I don’t, I’m sure I had time to read, but I don’t know. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .whether I did or not.

TT: Okay.

PR: I think I, I think I just, you know, pretty much went to sleep. I can’t, I just can’t remember.

TT: Okay.

PR: I know I was reading a book. I was working on a book, but I don’t think I. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .remember if I read that night or not. I don’t know.

TT: So you go upstairs, jump into pajamas go into bed. Did you have to take off your makeup, take off your jewelry. What’s that whole sequence?

PR: (Laughs)

TT: I don’t wear a lot of makeup, so it’s hard for me to know how often you have to do that.

PR: Oh, I probably washed my face, brushed my teeth.

TT: Okay. What’s your normal get ready for bed routine I guess is what I’m asking?

PR: Um, take my makeup off. Brush my teeth.

TT: Okay. Take all your jewelry off then.

PR: No, I don’t take them off.

TT: Okay.

PR: Sometime, I mean, it depends on what I have on, sometimes I take it off, sometimes I don’t, but . . .

TT: Okay. JonBenet, she had some jewelry on. Does she normally sleep in her jewelry in her jewelry too. She had a little necklace. . .

PR: Um hum.

TT: . . .and a bracelet and stuff . . .

PR: Um hum.

TT: …and the necklace, I believe, she got from Paulette?

PR: Pam.

TT: Pam.

PR: For Christmas.

TT: Okay. (Inaudible)

PR: I had given her the bracelet the night of our Christmas party.

TT: Back on the 23rd?

PR: Um hum.

TT: Okay. She didn’t over the last day didn’t, hadn’t taken that off at all then?

PR: I’m not, I don’t believe so.

TT: Okay. And what about the, the rings that she wears? (Inaudible)

PR: She had on a little gold ring that my mother had given her.

TT: That Nedra had given her.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Did she normally wear that al the time too?

PR: Um hum.

TT: So, you got upstairs, take your makeup off, jump into bed. John comes in shortly after that? Um, do you hear Burke go to bed at all? Do you hear him playing Nintendo, watching TV or anything like that?

PR: I just don’t remember.

TT: Okay. Anything else, before everybody goes to bed for the night that you can remember happen, hearing any noises, anything like that in the house?

PR: No, I don’t remember any.

TT: Okay. And let me back you up just a little bit. Do you guys ever use the alarm system I that house at all?

PR: No, we didn’t use it in years.

TT: Okay. Do you remember about when the last time you used the alarm system was?

PR: Well, I remember when JonBenet was probably two or three, it was, the house was still under construction. She was probably two.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I didn’t even know the alarm system was activated yet, because we had had so many people in and out of there. She drug that little, this little bench we had back by the garage door, drug it over and I think she was trying to hit the garage door opener, but she hit, you know, boom, boom, boom on that . . .

TT: The keypad.

PR: . . .keypad and I mean it just, it’s an interior alarm. It’s got the speakers or whatever they are inside the house and it is just deafening. And uh, John, we ran back to the keypad, cause I had never really heard it go off and she was standing there, you know, like, and uh, I mean, I didn’t even know how to shut the dumb thing off cause I didn’t even know it was activated and pretty soon I, I was trying to call Safe Systems or whoever it was that I thought had been working on it and uh, I mean, you just couldn’t stay in the house it was so awful, so loud. And uh, I remember grabbing John’s cellular phone, because I couldn’t dial it inside the house it was too . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .loud and pretty soon I heard these sirens and apparently she had hit the button that, you know, don’t ask questions, just sent help.

TT: Um hum. So everybody came.

PR: Everybody came and, and, you know, they were saying well, you know, if this is your house why don’t you turn it off? And I was like we don’t know the code, you know, so that was the last, so we didn’t use it because of that, cause, cause like every time that we ever used the alarm system it would go off erratically and . . .

TT: Had problems with it? So it hasn’t, you hadn’t use it or it has it not been hooked up to an alarm company at all?

PR: I believe it was hooked up to a, um, I don’t know if you call it an alarm company or whatever, but for fire . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .but somehow I think that the smoke detectors were incorporated into that. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and I think we did have it monitored, you know, for that purpose. . .

TT: Okay.

PR: . . .for the fire protection.

TT: And that’s it then? Okay. Patsy, let me take one step back. Um, you pulled the coverings on JonBenet’s bed. Nedra talked about that half of the house is real warm or something. . .

PR: Yeah.

TT: . . .since you guys go the uh, remodel done?

PR: Yeah, right.

TT: What kind of covering, what are the bed sheets or blankets, what kind of covering does JonBenet normally have on her bed?

PR: Um, a fitted sheet . . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and a flat sheet and then a cotton blanket and then a bed spread.

TT: And is that what she had on the night of the 25th when she went to bed. When you pulled back all the sheets and stuff. Is that the uh, she had a couple of sheets, fitted sheets, flat sheets, this light blanket . . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .and then the heavy kind of quilted. . .

PR: Well, right, um hum. I usually turn the bed spread down.

TT: Um hum.

PR: (Inaudible) didn’t have that on her because it’s hot.

TT: She doesn’t use the bed spread, right?

PR: Right.

TT: Okay. (Inaudible) follows with what Nedra was talking about.

PR: Yeah, it’s very warm in that part of the house.

TT: (Inaudible) Um, do you remember the type of sheets she had on her bed that night? The print of them. The characters of them?

PR: Well, now she had a lot of different sheets, I don’t know exactly.

TT: Okay. (Inaudible)

PR: (Inaudible)

TT: Can you describe the blankets again is it, I take it a fairly light weight cotton blanket?

PR: Yeah, kind of a loose weave blanket.

TT: Okay. Okay. What I would like to do is show you a picture of a blanket, it’s got a scale and it’s a white blanket with what you describe as a loose weave and all that. It’s got a scale around the outside is all. Is this, does that kind of look like the blanket, there you go Pat, that was on her bed that night? And again, it’s uh, it’s folded up. Hard, kind of hard to see.

PR: Yeah. Yeah, it was probably, yeah.

TT: Does that look like the kind of blanket that was on her bed.

PR: Um hum.

TT: Or was that the blanket on her bed?

PR: I, it may have been, yeah. I can’t, I mean it sort of looks a little pinkish. It was . . .

TT: And, and that might be . . .

PR: It was white.

TT: . . .that might be the coloring of the picture.

PR: Yeah.

TT: Uh, because the colors are not very good.

PR: Right.

TT: It’s actually an all white blanket.

PR: Is it? Um hum.

TT: The colors are kind of deceiving on that.

PR: Yeah. It, it could have been.

TT: Okay. And um, is it a, she sleeps in a twin bed right?

PR: Right.

TT: Is the blanket a twin bed blanket or is it oversized, um. . .

PR: Um, that was a twin.

TT: It was a twin size blanket also.

PR: Yeah, it was pretty generous twin.

TT: Generous?

PR: Well, it was pretty . . .

TT: It was bigger.

PR: Bigger, uh huh, yeah.

TT: Did it hang down (inaudible) to the floor on each side, but it went down the side of the bed quite a ways?

PR: Yeah.

TT: Okay. Okay. And, uh, Nedra also talked about, and correct me if I’m wrong Steve, did you guys have a similar type of blanket up on your bed?

PR: Uh, I think so.

TT: Only and obviously different size.

PR: Yeah, I think we did.

TT: Okay. Alrighty.

PR: I think we did yeah.

TT: Steve, you want to, do you want to touch on the questions we have for the 25th and uh, (inaudible) stuff?

ST: Sure, just let me fill in some blanks if I can Patsy. On the night of the 25th after you came, and tot eh best of your recollection, I think you said it may have been 8:00 or 9:00, is that fair. Um, when you got home . . .

PR: Well it was, I don’t know exactly what time . . .

PB: Yeah, that, that was not fair.

ST: Okay. Uh, what time did you get home on the night of the 25th.

PB [sic]: I don’t know exactly, but it was, you know, it was nineish probably. I don’t I didn’t, not remember looking at my watch or anything.

ST: Okay.

PR: It was dark.

ST: But it was shortly thereafter uh, at some point, that uh, JonBenet was put to bed um, you and John went to bed uh, I noted that uh, I had a question. Who put Burke to bed or did he put himself to bed that night?

PR: Um, I don’t know. I did not put Burke to bed.

ST: Okay. Is it typical that, that he can go to bed on his own.

PR: Well, typically one of the two of us put, put them to bed so, I, I think John was playing something with him. One of this Christmas things and he, very likely, put him to bed.

ST: Okay.

PR: I did not so I don’t know.

ST: But John, and you to an extent, but JonBenet to bed, uh, by carrying her to bed because she was asleep or out.

PR: She was sound asleep.

ST: Okay.

PR: He carried her and put her in bed and I got her, you know, pulled off everything and put her, I left the shirt on and put the pants on.

ST: And remind me, what shirt did she go to bed in? Was that the same shirt that she wore to the Whites that night?

PR: Yes.

ST: The red, uh . . .

PR: no it was white.

ST: Okay. And then those little white sort of thermal bottoms?

PR: Right.

ST: is that right? And what was your goodnight routine with JonBenet in her room on the night of the 25th? Did, John was getting her down. Did you simply peak your head in or how long were you in the room with John.

PR: Oh, he just walked in and laid her in the bed and then I, I, he left . . .

ST: You took it from there?

PR: Right.

ST: And that consisted of simply getting her under the covers.

PR: Well, I changed her and took the black velvet pants off and found those, those long underwear pants and put on her.

ST: Okay. Turned off the light?

PR: Uh, the light in her bedroom was not on. I believe that bathroom light, we usually left the bathroom light on.

ST: As a nightlight?

PR: Or a nightlight. She had a little lamp in there. We either left that on or the bathroom light on in her room.

ST: Okay. Um, do you recall that night leaving a nightlight on for her?

PR: I mean, I just can’t remember exactly, but very likely I did.

ST: Do you know uh, when you left the room, John had laid her down and then you changed her into some different clothing, put her under the covers or put her into bed to sleep for the night?

PR: Right.

ST: Do you remember how you left the door into her room when you left the room? Did you leave that open or closed or cracked?

PR: I usually leave it cracked a little bit.

ST: Okay. And is that your recollection on that night?

PR: Um hum.

ST: Okay. And then retrace your step for me, then did you go up and go to bed?

PR: I don’t think I immediately did. I, I uh, you know brushed my teeth and got ready for bed and I think, I think I got, a coup, you know, some presents ready to go and just kind of a couple of things. Yeah, I’m sure I was getting ready to leave early the next morning?

ST: Did you change out of the clothes or the pajamas or whatever you wear to bed during your nighttime routine, brushing your teeth . . .

PR: Right.

ST: . . .and washing your face?

PR: Um hum.

ST: Um, did you ever go back and check on JonBenet again after you pout her down and turned out the light and closed the door, um, that time?

PR: I don’t believe I did.

ST: Did John ever go back in?

PR: I don’t, I don’t know.

ST: Okay. Um, it was how long after you put JonBenet to bed, did you then retire into bed for the evening?

PR: I don’t know exactly. Maybe half hour I think, I don’t, I can’t remember exactly.

ST: And it was shortly after you went to bed that John then came to bed?

PR: Right.

ST: And during that half hour, 45 minutes, after you put JonBenet to bed, and that you were still up, uh, arranging presents, brushing your teeth, you don’t know uh, whether or not John went back into JonBenet’s bedroom?

PR: Um, no.

ST: Would it have been unlikely for him to have gone back in and awakened her for any reason?

PR: Oh, yeah. It would have been unlikely.

ST: Okay. Can you give me, to the best of your memory, if you got home at nineish, was it shortly after coming home at nineish that you put JonBenet into bed? That John carried her, or John carried her up and put her to bed.

PR: Yeah it was, I mean, he carried her from the car to her bed.

ST: So, were you in bed then, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, by ten or 10:30 or what time, if you can reconstruct that, did you then go to bed?

PR: I was probably, probably in bed by then. Ten or 10:30

ST: Okay. And when you say. . .

PR: I can’t remember exactly.

ST: . . .John came to bed shortly thereafter, do you recall if that was 15 minutes or a half an hour?

PR: It was probably just a few minutes.

ST: Okay. You were still awake?

PR: I was, yeah, I could, was aware of him, you know, getting in bed, but . . .

ST: And are you a sound sleeper?

PR: Fairly.

ST; And prior to December 25th were you on any sort of sleeping medications?

PR: No.

ST: Any medications whatsoever? Other than vitamins or over the co8unter?

PR: No.

ST: Is John a fairly heavy sleeper?

PR: Yes, I would say, he snores (inaudible).

ST: When John gets up during the night on occasion is he does to use the bathroom, for example, does that awaken you? Are you aware of when John leaves the bed.

PR: Um hum, usually.

ST: And is John aware when you leave the bed?

PR: I don’t know if he’s aware when I leave or not?

ST: Okay. So on the night of the 25th at some point, Burke went to bed, it’s possible or likely that John checked on him and made sure that he was down . .

PR: Um hum.

ST: . . .but, John had put JonBenet into her bed and she never awakened the whole time from the car to bed that night.

PR: Not that I real no.

ST: Did that concern you at all or was that common with a, a six-year-old baby?

PR: She just, she was really zonked.

ST: A long Christmas day. She had been up early opening gifts.

PR: Yeah (inaudible).

ST: When you awaken the next morning, uh, do you recall what you or John wore the following morning when you got up?

PR: You mean what did I put on in the morning?

ST: Um hum.

PR: Uh, I think I pout on the same black velvet pants and the red turtleneck sweater. I don’t know what John had on.

ST: And on the night before, on the night of the 25th, the black velvet pants and the red sweater, you don’t recall what your footwear was?

PR: I think, um, no, I can’t remember exactly. I usually wear these little black kind of little boots with it, bit I don’t know if wore them that, I don’t remember what I wore that night.

ST: Do you remember on the night of the 25th, when you and John came home, what the lockup procedure, the security procedure for the house that night was?

PR: No, I don’t.

ST: Concerning keys to the house Patsy uh, and access to the house, outside of John Andrew being in Boulder, were there another keys outstanding other than John Andrew’s and the Barnhills?

PR: Uh, my dad had a key. Um . . .

ST: Had that been accounted for?

PR: Has that been accounted for?

ST: Does Don Paugh still have that key.

PR: I don’t know. Um. . .

ST: Had anybody asked Don Paugh if he still has that key.

PR: (Coughing, response unknown) Excuse me. Uh, my cleaning lady had a key, Linda. The Barnhills I believe actually gave two keys, because I had given her one and she couldn’t find it. I think I gave them another one? Uh, Barbara Fernie had one at one time, I’m not sure. I think I might have gotten that back from her. Pricilla had one I believe. Uh . . .

ST: Does Pricilla still have that key?

PR: I don’t know. I can’t remember. It seems like I gave it to her before we went to the lake, because she was going to have a lot of house guest and I thought if she wanted to, you know, use the house for any reason she could have the key.

ST: What is the status of the key or keys that you gave the Barnhills?

PR: The status right now?

ST: Yeah. Have you gotten those back?

PR: I haven’t, no, I don’t know where they are. I don’t know what the status is of those?

ST: Would it be inaccurate if the Barnhills were saying that they returned the key to you? Could that be possible?

PR: Um, it could be possible I guess. I don’t remember, and I think, I think I gave it to them and the intent was if I got, anybody got locked out of the house they would have a key. So I don’t, I mean, it wasn’t like, you know, keep this for two days and then give it back to me or something, you know.

ST: And as some point we’ll come, uh, uh, Tom has some questions for you about when John had to break in that basement window . . .

PR: Right.

ST: . . .but was there any reason you couldn’t or John could not have retrieve the key from the Barnhills at that time to get in rather than breaking the window?

PR: He, he may not have know they had a key.

ST: Do you recall on December 24th into the morning of December 25th, whether or not JonBenet slept in her bed or over in Burkes room?

PR: I, I just don’t remember exactly, but it seems like she was in her bed, but I don’t remember exactly.

ST: How about on the, uh, night of the 25th when you and John put her to bed, would it have been unlikely for her to have then moved to another location in the house to have slept, your bed or Burke’s room?

PR: Yeah, it would have been unlikely.

ST: Okay.

PR: The reason I can’t remember whether they, where she slept on the 24th were, not cause it seemed like they were conspiring about what time they were going to get up in the morning and I can’t remember whether they, it seems like there, that she did, they did talk about her sleeping in his room, but I can’t remember whether that really happened or not, but I remember they were conspiring about what time to get up and . . .

ST: On the night of the 25th after John put JonBenet into her bed, she’s zonked out sound asleep, did not awaken, um, you got her changed um, may have left the nightlight on, may have left the door cracked uh, you don’t know what John did for the 30 minutes or an hour that he remained up in the house prior to coming to bed. I that right?

PR: Well, he was, I remember he was, was with Burke playing with something. I don’t know what they were playing with, but . . .

ST: But he never mentioned to you that he re-awakened JonBenet for any reason.

PR: No.

ST: Take her to the bathroom so she didn’t wet or anything like that?

PR: No.

ST: Did any else, you, John or Burke have any ill effects uh, after eating dinner at the Whites in coming home? Any feelings of intoxication or drowsiness?

PR: I, I remember just being really tired. I don’t know that I was drowsy, but you know, it had been a big day. I was tired and I was anxious to get to bed.

ST: Patsy, in some ways I, I know more about your family than I know about my own, but uh, to the best of my knowledge and what everybody tells me neither you nor John are drinkers, your social drinkers as best. Did you have anything to drink on the night of the 25th at the Whites? A glass of wine.

PR: We may have had a glass of wine. I know John is very cautious about, I mean, knowing that he is going to fly the next, you know, does not, uh, you know, drink a lot.

ST: So certainly neither of you . . .

PR: I mean we may have had, and I’m very, I don’t drink a lot because my chemo did a number on my liver so I, I don’t, we just don’t drink a lot.

ST: So I’m assuming neither you nor John was intoxicated . . .

PR: No.

ST: . . .by any means that night.

PR: No, no, no.

ST: On the way home from the Whites, you made two stops you told me. Where there any issues or anything that come back to mind in hindsight uh, about any concerns or were these friendly social stops?

PR: Yeah, I just had a little bottle of perfume I gave to Roxie and, Roxie Walker, and that basket of uh, you know, goodies kind of stuff I dropped off at the Stines.

ST: As is so often the case in this case you hear so many things that you try to attribute back to a source that’s sometimes, but prior to the 25th was there any persons that came to your home unsolicited uh, that were invited in, not guests on the 23rd to the Christmas party, but in particular uh, w