Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006, 01:02 am

[psych] How to Make Friends (for INTPs) OK, this needs to go here for posterity.



Several times, going waaaaaay back, I've been approached by utterly wretched and lonely INTPs who have said, "Siderea, I have realized I don't know how to make friends. I don't have any, and I'm lonely. How do I make friends?"



And I, having learned that INTPs can be programmed much like computers, presented them with a handy friend-making algorithm.



This just came up again. So I figure, while I have it in writing....



This algorithm has to have interesting people to operate on. If you're still at the "where do I find interesting people" stage, this won't help you. The purpose of this algorithm is to convert acquaintances into friends.



How to Make Friends (for INTPs (or anyone elses) who don't know how):

Make a list of cool people you've met that you'd like to be friends with. For each, think of something you think would be be cool to do with that person. Pick a schedule -- say once a week, or Mondays and Thursdays; or whatever you think works for you -- and on those days, invite one of the people on that list out to do that something. Write down when you contacted them, and whether or not they accepted. Each time you invite someone out, make a note of it. Also note the response. The third time in a row someone turns you down, unless they have initiated a get-together with you themselves in that time, strike them from the list. After the third time in a row that you invite someone out and they accept, they should have started reciprocating initiation with you. If they don't, you may assume you're a low priority for them. Either stop contacting them and wait for them to reciprocate, or accept that you have to do the initiating. As you find new interesting people put them on the list.

Now, if anyone is getting all worked up into a lather about how soulless, mechanistic, blah blah blah this is, or why cut bait at three instead of four, or how hard and fast rules have no place in human affairs, or how crude such a tool is, or how could anyone could possibly need such a guide or.... Oh, just put a sock in it. This is a tool for people who really have no idea how else to do this. Not everybody finds interpersonal skills easy, any more than everybody finds math, or sports, or spelling, or commodities trading, or french cooking easy. Have you found everything you have ever tried easy? No? Then sit down and shut up.



There. If there were any other INTPs who needed the clue, now you have it. OK, this needs to go here for posterity.Several times, going waaaaaay back, I've been approached by utterly wretched and lonely INTPs who have said, "Siderea, I have realized I don't know how to make friends. I don't have any, and I'm lonely. How do I make friends?"And I, having learned that INTPs can be programmed much like computers, presented them with a handy friend-making algorithm.This just came up again. So I figure, while I have it in writing....This algorithm has to have interesting people to operate on. If you're still at the "where do I find interesting people" stage, this won't help you. The purpose of this algorithm is to convert acquaintances into friends.How to Make Friends (for INTPs (or anyone elses) who don't know how):There. If there were any other INTPs who needed the clue, now you have it. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:28 am (UTC)

wsmith A very good program. Solidly methodical and generally good social rules to work with.



If I might recommend a few environment variables to add to the whole thing:

1. Be nice to people (vague, I know, but specifics can be added for the less clueful of the INTPs.)

2. In conversation, don't sweat the small stuff. Wait until your companion makes a significant mistake before jumping to correct them. (Vague as well, Specific values can be set for significant and small.)

3. Relax. Don't worry about whether you're alienating a person until it actually seems that you might be.



Admittedly, these may be too self evident, but I was feeling chatty and figured I'd add my two cents. I've met many an INTP who would think these are obvious and many others that, when given these instructions would gaze at me with a sort of blank, desperate look. I'm sure you've seen the one... Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 01:18 pm (UTC)

m_danson If Siderea gives me permission to reprint this post (with credit and link), may I reprint your comment also (with credit and link of course)? If Siderea gives me permission to reprint this post (with credit and link), may I reprint your comment also (with credit and link of course)? Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 09:42 am (UTC)

blackbyrd2 I no longer have problems making friends, (for a given value of friend,) but when I was younger, something like this would have helped me avoid the pitfalls that come of trying too hard. I think it's a great idea.



I no longer have problems making friends, (for a given value of friend,) but when I was younger, something like this would have helped me avoid the pitfalls that come of trying too hard. I think it's a great idea. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 10:17 am (UTC)

antoniseb Being an INTP has been tough at times. This method for making friends will probably work. Please note that once you succeed in making a friend, you'll want to maintain that friendship. Continue suggesting fun things.

Being an INTP has been tough at times. This method for making friends will probably work. Please note that once you succeed in making a friend, you'll want to maintain that friendship. Continue suggesting fun things. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 01:17 pm (UTC)

m_danson May I reprint this in my lj (with credit and link of course)? May I reprint this in my lj (with credit and link of course)? Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:11 pm (UTC)

siderea Sure! Sure! Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 01:26 pm (UTC)

ironphoenix An ENFP adding a couple of notes, take cum grano salis.



Some people initiate stuff a lot, some don't. You may find that with some friends, they initiate enough things to maintain the friendship, where with others, you have to get the ball rolling. Your tolerance for this probably varies, but if you insist on 1:1 reciprocation, you'll exhaust yourself with some people and never see others.



When someone interesting (even if they aren't yet on your list) invites you to do something, remember that they too have an "algorithm" of sorts, and it probably doesn't take a lot of flat "no"s before that person will write you off. Suggest another time, another activity for next time, whatever, but make it clear that you aren't cold-shouldering them.



Thinking about it, this could also be evolved into a dating rules system, but that's a more intricate thing.



As for mechanisticness etc, I see this as a recipe. Beginning cooks need recipes; advanced ones rely on principles derived from experience. My own approach to friendships isn't so different from this algorithm, although it's less consistent.



Another aspect of friendship which this doesn't really address directly is the important factor of trust. This, at least for me, evolves with exposure, so doing things with people creates opportunities for trust-building, even though folks seldom get together specifically and explicitly for that purpose.



One last important note about trust-building: Failure to show up when a commitment was made is a trust-killer. At the very least, it calls for honest explanation and apology, and usually puts the obligation to initiate some activity to show committment to the friendship on the no-show. The initiator of an activity is generally in a situation of greater social/emotional vulnerability, and someone who is inconsiderate of that isn't really a very good friend. An ENFP adding a couple of notes, takeSome people initiate stuff a lot, some don't. You may find that with some friends, they initiate enough things to maintain the friendship, where with others, you have to get the ball rolling. Your tolerance for this probably varies, but if you insist on 1:1 reciprocation, you'll exhaust yourself with some people and never see others.When someone interesting (even if they aren't yet on your list) invites you to do something, remember that they too have an "algorithm" of sorts, and it probably doesn't take a lot of flat "no"s before that person will writeoff. Suggest another time, another activity for next time, whatever, but make it clear that you aren't cold-shouldering them.Thinking about it, this could also be evolved into a dating rules system, but that's a more intricate thing.As for mechanisticness etc, I see this as a recipe. Beginning cooks need recipes; advanced ones rely on principles derived from experience. My own approach to friendships isn't so different from this algorithm, although it's less consistent.Another aspect of friendship which this doesn't really address directly is the important factor of trust. This, at least for me, evolves with exposure, so doing things with people creates opportunities for trust-building, even though folks seldom get together specifically and explicitly for that purpose.One last important note about trust-building:At the very least, it calls for honest explanation and apology, and usually puts the obligation to initiate some activity to show committment to the friendship on the no-show. The initiator of an activity is generally in a situation of greater social/emotional vulnerability, and someone who is inconsiderate of that isn't really a very good friend. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:24 pm (UTC)

siderea When someone interesting (even if they aren't yet on your list) invites you to do something, remember that they too have an "algorithm" of sorts, and it probably doesn't take a lot of flat "no"s before that person will write you off. Suggest another time, another activity for next time, whatever, but make it clear that you aren't cold-shouldering them.



Excellent point. It's an ACK/NACK protocol system with timeouts. You need to ACK some of their REQs as well as put out your own REQ and expect their ACKs. Never NACK without a REQ if you want to keep the connection open.



Another aspect of friendship which this doesn't really address directly is the important factor of trust.



Yes, this is strictly about the concrete side of things. We N types, most definitely including the INTP target audience of this piece, are prone to devaluing the concrete in favor of the abstract. I wanted to keep the concreteness front and center, so completely eliminated all the abstract principle stuff. It's a "what to do" not a "why to do it".



That said, the trust issue is fundamental, and deserves it's own post.



For a discussion of the "hows" of trust (but not the role of trust in friendships), a web resource an INTP of my acquaintance found useful was

When someone interesting (even if they aren't yet on your list) invites you to do something, remember that they too have an "algorithm" of sorts, and it probably doesn't take a lot of flat "no"s before that person will write you off. Suggest another time, another activity for next time, whatever, but make it clear that you aren't cold-shouldering them.Excellent point. It's an ACK/NACK protocol system with timeouts. You need to ACK some of their REQs as well as put out your own REQ and expect their ACKs. Never NACK without a REQ if you want to keep the connection open.Another aspect of friendship which this doesn't really address directly is the important factor of trust.Yes, this is strictly about the concrete side of things. We N types, most definitely including the INTP target audience of this piece, are prone to devaluing the concrete in favor of the abstract. I wanted to keep the concreteness front and center, so completely eliminated all the abstract principle stuff. It's a "what to do" not a "why to do it".That said, the trust issue is fundamental, and deserves it's own post.For a discussion of the "hows" of trust (but not the role of trust in friendships), a web resource an INTP of my acquaintance found useful was the ChangingMinds section on trust. (Deleted comment) Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:13 pm (UTC)

siderea *snork* I'd never heard of Iterative Control Point model building or Extended Kalman Filter target tracking, but I can believe it. *snork* I'd never heard of Iterative Control Point model building or Extended Kalman Filter target tracking, but I can believe it. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 02:15 pm (UTC)

dcp2838 From an ISFJ, would you modify the algorithm for the IM world? From an ISFJ, would you modify the algorithm for the IM world? Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:13 pm (UTC)

siderea Hmmm. I don't IM so I'm incompetant to comment, really. Hmmm. I don't IM so I'm incompetant to comment, really. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 03:51 pm (UTC)

merle_ Heh.. I'm J, not P, but I used a very similar algorithm for my Access database for holiday cards and gifts -- recording whether I sent something or received something, and the "quality" of the card or item. It felt a wee touch cruel and heartless, but really, why send cards to someone you have not heard from for five years? Maybe they do not want to talk to you. (actually, I used a two strike rule for cards, but with a year between them, that's enough time...)



Good algorithm. I had not thought of using it for friends, but then again, I'm not all that social in person. It would have been nice to know this back in grade school. Heh.. I'm J, not P, but I used a very similar algorithm for my Access database for holiday cards and gifts -- recording whether I sent something or received something, and the "quality" of the card or item. It felt a wee touch cruel and heartless, but really, why send cards to someone you have not heard from for five years? Maybe they do not want to talk to you. (actually, I used a two strike rule for cards, but with a year between them, that's enough time...)Good algorithm. I had not thought of using it for friends, but then again, I'm not all that social in person. It would have been nice to know this back in grade school. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 08:33 pm (UTC)

leora Or maybe, like me, they don't care about holiday cards and gifts and would feel better opting out of the whole procedure. They may still like you, but not want to do the card thing. But really, their reasons don't matter when all you're looking at is should you send a card. Or maybe, like me, they don't care about holiday cards and gifts and would feel better opting out of the whole procedure. They may still like you, but not want to do the card thing. But really, their reasons don't matter when all you're looking at is should you send a card. Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:22 pm (UTC)

dpolicar In general. cool.



they should have started reciprocating initiation with you. If they don't, you may assume you're a low priority for them. Either stop contacting you and wait for them to reciprocate, or accept that you have to do the initiating.



You mean "Either stop contacting them".

Personally, I would add a note here to the effect of "This is not sufficient grounds from which to conclude that they secretly dislike you." In general. cool.You mean "Either stop contacting".Personally, I would add a note here to the effect of "This issufficient grounds from which to conclude that they secretly dislike you." Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 07:36 pm (UTC)

siderea Whups! Fixed. Thanks!



Personally, I would add a note here to the effect of "This is not sufficient grounds from which to conclude that they secretly dislike you."



I wouldn't, because you're trying to discourage some people from being biased to one conclusion, when, really, there's a whole lot of people in the target audience who are biased too much in the opposite direction who will take this as confirmation of their bias.



We're talking INTPs, here. A population famed for not getting hints that they're unwelcome. (Hence, I think, a lot of INTPs' anxiety about not being welcome -- since they don't pick it up, when it finally comes to their attention, it's in the social equivalent of a 2x4 across the bridge of the nose.)



There is a sense in which the point of this program is to get people off the topic of figuring out what other people think or feel, and reacting exclusively to demonstrated behaviors. For people who are bad at telepathy, that's a much better way of proceeding.



As you have literally written it, I agree with the statement. But I am unwilling to throw it out there without a full context, of what you can and can't conclude, and how, while that is insufficient grounds to conclude that someone secretly dislikes you, that's not actually an unreasonable hypothesis to entertain, and future interaction with that person should be predicated around that possibility! No, you shouldn't conclude that -- but you must allow for it.

Whups! Fixed. Thanks!Personally, I would add a note here to the effect of "This is not sufficient grounds from which to conclude that they secretly dislike you."I wouldn't, because you're trying to discourage some people from being biased to one conclusion, when, really, there's a whole lot of people in the target audience who are biased too much in the opposite direction who will take this as confirmation of their bias.We're talking INTPs, here. A population famed for not getting hints that they're unwelcome. (Hence, I think, a lot of INTPs' anxiety about not being welcome -- since they don't pick it up, when it finally comes to their attention, it's in the social equivalent of a 2x4 across the bridge of the nose.)There is a sense in which the point of this program is to get people off the topic of figuring out what other people think or feel, and reacting exclusively to demonstrated behaviors. For people who are bad at telepathy, that's a much better way of proceeding.As you have literally written it, I agree with the statement. But I am unwilling to throw it out there without a full context, of what you can and can't conclude, and how, while that is insufficient grounds to conclude that someone secretly dislikes you, that's not actually an unreasonable hypothesis to entertain, and future interaction with that personbe predicated around that possibility! No, you shouldn't conclude that -- but youallow for it. (Deleted comment) Sun, Oct. 15th, 2006 02:11 am (UTC)

dmnsqrl Oh, being told I can be programmed much like a computer rather than being just another confusingly chaotic human is quite reassuring to me ;) Oh, being told I can be programmed much like a computer rather than being just another confusingly chaotic human is quite reassuring to me ;) Sat, Sep. 30th, 2006 11:02 pm (UTC)

cfox I've been very disconcerted (on a very small handful of occasions) when I realised that I had just been the target of a people-collector.



Despite later deciding that the interaction had been harmless or welcome, in all cases I proceeded to fail at reciprocal friendship maintenance. I suspect that your strategy is most successful when used on fairly mature, self-confidant or extroverted subjects.



Other than avoiding any form of symbolic gift, I don't have any good safety rules for not freaking out your target, though; it's a hard problem, because I can see why you don't want to discourage people, and I can see that some amount of collateral damage is acceptable. I've been very disconcerted (on a very small handful of occasions) when I realised that I had just been the target of a people-collector.Despite later deciding that the interaction had been harmless or welcome, in all cases I proceeded to fail at reciprocal friendship maintenance. I suspect that your strategy is most successful when used on fairly mature, self-confidant or extroverted subjects.Other than avoiding any form of symbolic gift, I don't have any good safety rules for not freaking out your target, though; it's a hard problem, because I can see why you don't want to discourage people, and I can see that some amount of collateral damage is acceptable. Sun, Oct. 1st, 2006 06:43 am (UTC)

bastets_place You just clearly and concisely explained exactly what I have been doing with my personal, off-line "friends list"!



Better still, you describe this as a "good thing"!



I have been catching a LOT of flack from a friend of mine because, you know, just because these other people have been unavailable to get together for the past nine months to a year doesn't mean that they don't want to get together with me.



I now feel oddly better. Thank you. You just clearly and concisely explained exactly what I have been doing with my personal, off-line "friends list"!Better still, you describe this as a "good thing"!I have been catching a LOT of flack from a friend of mine because, you know, just because these other people have been unavailable to get together for the past nine months to a year doesn't mean that they don't want to get together with me.I now feel oddly better. Thank you. Sun, Oct. 1st, 2006 03:53 pm (UTC)

m_danson "I have been catching a LOT of flack from a friend of mine because, you know, just because these other people have been unavailable to get together for the past nine months to a year doesn't mean that they don't want to get together with me."



My response to that is now "Okay. Let me know when you are avaliable again by inviting me out for coffee or something." (or something similar that puts the ball in thier court. The ones who actually want to see me contact me and the ones who just seem to want to whine and only want me to initiate don't.



Doing that has made my life easier and happier by giving me more energy and time to devote to the people who seem to like having me around. "I have been catching a LOT of flack from a friend of mine because, you know, just because these other people have been unavailable to get together for the past nine months to a year doesn't mean that they don't want to get together with me."My response to that is now "Okay. Let me know when you are avaliable again by inviting me out for coffee or something." (or something similar that puts the ball in thier court. The ones who actually want to see me contact me and the ones who just seem to want to whine and only want me to initiate don't.Doing that has made my life easier and happier by giving me more energy and time to devote to the people who seem to like having me around. Tue, Oct. 3rd, 2006 01:27 am (UTC)

gardenfey Excellent! Excellent! Tue, Oct. 3rd, 2006 01:28 pm (UTC)

sauergeek INTp (yes, strong INT, relatively weak P)



Useful, very useful.



Now I just need one of these for something I've never managed to figure out: dating. INTp (yes, strong INT, relatively weak P)Useful, very useful.Now I just need one of these for something I've never managed to figure out: dating. Sun, Oct. 15th, 2006 06:26 am (UTC)

purplesquirrel I'm an INTP and that's exactly what I've been doing for years! (I got to your algorithm via a link on dmnsqrl I'm an INTP and that's exactly what I've been doing for years! (I got to your algorithm via a link on's page.)