"I can't say I will put 100% effort in competing ... that's not something I enjoy doing anymore."

The year is 2014. The first Hearthstone World Championships has reached its climax. On stage is an 18-year old player from Michigan, relatively new to the still young Hearthstone community. The score is 2-0 in his favour: match point. Facing him is TiddlerCelestial, the friendly but deadly powerhouse from China who swept through Tarei and Kranich in the quarter finals and semi finals respectively. The match-up: Combo Druid versus Handlock. Both players are low on health, but the Handlock has a significant resource advantage. A topdecked The Black Knight swings the board enough in the Druid's favour to settle it: 3-0.

That is how the world got to know James "Firebat" Kostesich, and perhaps how it will always remember him: the first Hearthstone world champion. Winning the most prestigious tournament in the scene marked the launch of the most successful career in competitive Hearthstone to date, with Firebat ranked second on esportsearnings Hearthtsone player list. As well as that, like many other professional players these days, he has built a stream on Twitch, displaying his skills on a day-to-day basis for the entire world. Casting Hearthstone has proved to be no big obstacle either, as with his analytical mind and unparalleled game experience he is a very specific but enjoyable asset to the casting desk.

Competitively Firebat hasn't been in the spotlight for quite a while though, with his latest top finish dating back to 2015, a second in WCA. And though Firebat received widespread acclaim for his role on the casting desk during 2016's World Championship, winning both the panel vote and community vote in the 2016 GosuAwards category 'best new caster', seeing the big stage made him crave competitiveness again. A tweet stated that he had fun, but that next time he'd be there as a player.

During the Hearthstone Winter Championships 2017 at the Bahamas Matthieist caught up with the veteran. They had a long talk about Firebat's 'return' to competitive Hearthstone, and all the other factors weighing in on playing at the highest possible level.



How's it going Firebat?

I'm doing great man, how are you?

I'm fine, thanks! Do you want to take over the interview?

Can it work that way?! I've never done that before, never been on the other end of it.

I actually have been. Just now there was a local YouTuber who wanted to ask me questions about the Bahamas and Hearthstone, that was fun.

And how did that go?

It went fine, I think, but I probably look like an idiot on camera.

Being on camera is tough. I definitely think your job is on the easier side of things.

You think so?

It's going well right now, right? [Laughs]

Ah, I see what you did! But let's swap roles again. You're here at the Bahamas, but not as a caster or participant...

No, as an 'influencer' apparently.

Influencer? Well I guess that's a fitting title, but I'll get back to that later. However, would you have liked to cast as well?

I did, but at the same time I wanted to play. They [Blizzard] told me, back in the Playoffs phases that I cannot play and cast. They have to have all that stuff booked and ready beforehand, and since they didn't know whether I'd make it to the Winter Championship or not... So I decided to take a step back from casting and try to compete. I didn't make it, but it's nice of them to still fly me in regardless.

That's interesting, because after the World Championships you tweeted that you enjoyed casting, but that indeed you'd rather be there as a participant.

Yeah, I always want to be a competitor. It's not the only reason, but definitely the main reason why I got into the game in the first place. I just love competing, that's my drive, that's what I want to do. But, at the same time, I burn out occasionally. I go through these weird cycles where in the first three months I'm like: "I wanna be the best in the world!" And then after those three months I realize how much work it is, and just want to go back to relax with other streamers, take the easy road.

I need to be able to self-motivate better if I want to compete, I guess. I can't stay focused long enough for the whole World Championship Tour. Those three months, I'll crush it. I'll be top 10 in points, winning opens, doing well in Majors, and then those second three months it's just [makes deflating sound] downhill you know?

It's all about trying to maintain focus and trying to push, and some of these younger guys got more drive I guess. They're able to push even harder, and I have to learn to keep up.

They're like you in 2014, before all the wealth and fame.

Well I wouldn't say wealth and fame, but I'm doing alright. I definitely have the ability to take it easier now. Back in the day I had to win. It was either win or live under a bridge you know? [laughs] So there's a little bit more motivation. Now I just go home and have fun, regardless of the performance.

So, being in the three months of motivation part of the cycle, you participated in the Winter Playoffs.

Yeah, my games went alright. Swashburglar got me a few times, three games actually. I was playing Shaman at the time - so I guess there was some justice as everybody hates Shaman - but anyway they pull out White Eyes. So White Eyes comes down, I'm playing Aggro Shaman, I kill the White Eyes. Next draw, three times in a row, he gets the second form the 10/10. And I don't know if you know anything about Aggro Shaman, but it's actually an aggressive deck, it tries to kill the opponent quickly. So 10/10 Taunts are just a bummer, really mess up your whole game plan.

That was it for my Playoffs run, basically. I made some mistakes in other areas, but ah man it hurts when those 10/10's happen!

Shortly after the Playoffs you, quite surprisingly, broke away from your team Cloud9. What happened there?

Cloud9 and I had different ideas of what we wanted. They wanted me to play in more tournaments for which they would pay for and arrange everything, as part of the package of being on the team. I kind of wanted to take a step back from that, and focus more on streaming, content creation, making YouTube videos etc. And if I'm doing that stuff, you know, you can't do that on a plane very easily. [Laughs]

I'm probably not gonna be flying out to as many events as before. I'll still be competing of course, as I said I love competing, I think it's fun, but I also want to get serious with content creation and streaming. So the package of a team flying you out to places wasn't ideal for what I wanted.

That's actually quite surprising from Cloud9's side, as usually the teams want their player to create content, since in participating in a tournament isn't a guaranteed success.

It's definitely risky to participate in a tournament these days.

It's also surprising from your side though, as on the one hand you want to compete more, but on the other hand you say "Well I don't want to fly there".

Well I did want to compete, but that was mainly in the beginning of the HCT year. BlizzCon happened, I was casting, getting fired up. I see the games and think: "Oh I miss that, I need that." And then, as I said, the three months of grinding go by and I think: "Well maybe I don't want it that much." [Laughs]

I used to be so stubborn that I'd have one goal, one mindset, and I have to do it, no matter what it takes.



It's hard. Your goals change over time and you get these different ambitions based on what's going around. I'm not as stubborn as I used to be. I used to be so stubborn that I'd have one goal, one mindset, and I have to do it, no matter what it takes. Now I have all of these different ambitions I want, how do I do all of them at the same time? I can't, because if I try I will accomplish none of them. But I love being diversified, doing all the aspects of something. If you do the same thing every day you get bored, so why not do a different thing every day and, you know, still be in the community, in the scene... It's more fun!

For a while now you haven't been on that top level you once were. How much of an influence has 'diversifying' been in this?

It's something that happens when you do other stuff. Previously, back when I was all-in on competing and that was all I wanted to do, I would play the game twelve to thirteen hours a day. I would be in Skype calls or Discord chats or Google Hangouts and be there with six or seven pro players. We would all be sharing screens and be talking about the games non stop. You can't do that when you're streaming, you can't do that while you're making videos. I also just get burned out now, I can't do it anymore. It's not as fun as it used to be.

A lot of my friends, all of my practice partners are making content now. I don't have any practice partner that's trying to be competitive right now. I have to go out and find new practice partners. My main practice partners from back then were Purple, Zalae and a bunch of names you've never heard of because they've never made it to the big stage. All great players, but most of them had to give up and get real jobs. The new age of Hearthstone players are kind of moving in now and the old age is taking a step back, and my crew is the old crew. So I have to hang out with the new group, like I've been hanging out with Fr0zen a little bit. You definitely need to have a solid practice foundation, a solid group of players that all have the same goal in mind. That's how you push each other forward.

The new age of Hearthstone players are kind of moving in now and the old age is taking a step back



People say Hearthstone is a solo game, it doesn't make sense that there are teams in Hearthstone, but when you have a solid foundation of people behind you that want you to be successful and want to be successful themselves, you actually learn the game so much better. You have so much more motivation to be better for them and for yourself. I'm a player that needs that, and I don't have that currently.

Is that the main part about it all? The mindset?

It's people's own mindset that gets them burned out on the game. Of course, you can only play for so many years, twenty hours a day. Like, how long can you play? If you count up all the hours within the four years I've been playing... pfew... that's a lot of hours. But some of the people that I've been practicing with never won a tournament, they never got their big opening. So economically, could they continue doing that? They can't. They have to take a back seat and pull out.

You can only go hard for so long and you hope you hit that opening. I was fortunate enough to have that happen, but people are starting to move away because the game is older and they can't pursue competitive careers. They have to pursue real lives at some point - the sad truth about esports. So Hearthstone is in a transitional phase, where a lot of pro players are moving into content creation, a lot of the pro players are giving up saying: "I didn't hit my window in the three years I've been playing, I have to actually go to school and get a real job now."

Besides the mindset, you've been critical of the game on your stream too. You've said that the game has gone to 'just playing stuff on curve', whereas with decks like Handlock you still had majorly impactful decisions to make on every turn. I can't imagine this adds to the motivation for competitiveness either?

I'm not really in a great state with the current game, for sure. Pirate Warrior is really silly, like really silly at this point. I'm excited for the changes that they have coming up, though. It will make the deck less ridiculous. Another silly thing is the draw RNG in Reno decks. The win percentages when having Reno Jackson versus when not having him, but also the importance of having some very specific cards is too much.

Of course, it's a card game, I get it. But they've been magnified and made more important than they need to be. I think one of the design team's goals should be to make the draw RNG less important. However, if you make the draw RNG less important, then it becomes Curvestone again. If every card is vanilla, and every card just follows a simple formula for stats, then you're playing Chillwind Yeti's on curve again all of a sudden. So there's a balance and there's a formula you've got to find, and it's not going to be easy. It's definitely difficult. You have to make cards that appeal to the casual players, cards that increase the skill cap, cards that make it so that the draw RNG isn't maximized, as well as that it's not minimized too much, avoiding Curvestone.

Do you have any deck in mind that would hit most of those points?

It's really, really difficult to hit all those points. Honestly, I think Combo Druid was my favorite deck for hitting those points and being powerful, but not being too powerful and having a lot of dynamic decisions. People may go against me on this, because they remember the turn nine combo. But I think that deck had one of the highest skill-caps. It was really strong, perhaps too poweful, but the way that the deck was built, the way it was designed and how the cards interacted with each other make it so that the draw RNG isn't a big deal. The same goes for playing on curve, which is exactly what you want.

One of the design team's goals should be to make the draw RNG less important. However, if you make the draw RNG less important, then it becomes Curvestone again.

If you look at decks like Patron Warrior, a lot of people say that's the highest skill cap deck ever. Well, that had a lot of draw RNG with Grim Patrons. You look at the win rates when you have Death's Bite on turn four compared to when you don't, and it's a big deal. The same goes for Rogue, a lot of people praise that as well. Don't draw Gadgetzan Auctioneer in your first fifteen cards, three games in a row, and see how high skill cap it is.

There's always a balance, there's always a give and take and you always have to find the right medium for it. But, as much hate as Combo Druid got, I think the meta with it was just ideal.

What about Handlock? Or in more recent metas, Freeze Mage perhaps?

I don't know, Freeze Mage is kind of weird. It doesn't play out like any other deck in Hearthstone. It's just a totally different game, which I really like. I think one of the strong suits in Hearthstone is that they have these nine classes, so there could be nine different ways to play the game, that would be amazing. But so far there's Tempo, there's Control and then there's Freeze Mage. There's not that many ways that have been explored.

Handlock is a little different, because you invest health into cards and then cards into board, so there's another step in the transversion there. But basically being able to transfer resources is what makes things so dynamic and interesting.

Going back to your relationship with the game, you're an influential person within the community...

Ok, whatever you say. [Laughs]

Wait, don't you notice this? If you've casted something, Reddit will be filled with compliments etc.

The community is bigger than Reddit though. And I'd say I'm a mid-tier caster, Frodan and Kibler and the like are better than I am. But yeah the Reddit community does dig my casting. They have said some nice things lately. Who knows what they'll say next week, you know, it's very fickle. But lately, they're digging me.

So, because they respect you so much, do you feel a lot of responsibility when you're streaming and criticize the game?

There is definitely a lot of pressure when you're streaming and you have to behave appropriately. Sometimes you want to have a ton of fun or do something wild like rage and vent about the game, but you've got to pull yourself back and realize that this isn't my little home brew personal stream anymore. I can't just talk about real life stuff and myself, I'm representing me, my sponsors, Blizzard, the whole thing. You have to be professional at all times for sure.

Well at least now that you're no longer with Cloud9 you don't have to worry about those sponsors anymore, right?

[Laughs] Well I don't have any yet, but at some point I will and I'm going to have to worry about making sure that I represent what their brand wants to say. Obviously I will make sure that that doesn't take away from who I am, but you limit yourself on a few certain things that you don't go. Just some politically correctness. You're a professional, exposing yourself to the world, and there are a lot of people in the world, so you try to upset as few as possible. You'll always upset someone with what you do, but you have to try and minimize that number.

Looking forward this HCT season, will you still be aiming for the World Championship despite being burned out every now and then?

I will try for sure. I'm most likely going to play in the next Playoffs and see where it goes from there. I won't be grinding for the Last Call spot, since I think I'm a little behind at this point, I took too many months off.

I can't say I will put 100% effort in it, because I know what that's like and as I said that's not something I enjoy doing anymore.



But I'd love to be there. I can't say I will put 100% effort in it, because I know what that's like and as I said that's not something I enjoy doing anymore. I know it sounds terrible, but going at it for 75% is when it's still enjoyable for me. 100% to me would be playing the game non stop, only taking breaks for food and sleep. Oh and going to the bathroom of course, I'm not going the 'tape the bottle to the leg'. [Laughs] But yeah it would be all day, every day, no sunshine, no talking to anyone that's not talking about Hearthstone.

So no, I'm not going that extreme, but I'll be trying still. It's just that for me there are other aspects in life I have to worry about as well, like my private life and financial life, what I'll be doing with my future, all that. I've been doing this for a long time, and I want to find a way to make it grow into something that could last forever. This is my passion and this is what I enjoy, but it turns out you can't be good at the game forever. Eventually you'll find an expansion that just doesn't quite click in your head or whatnot, so you need some backup options that can help you survive.

Which expansion was it for you that 'didn't quite click'?

Ehm, Whispers of the Old Gods. I did not really get into the metagame that well. Until the very end, just before Karazhan. That's when Midrange Shaman popped up, and I really enjoyed that deck. Especially the mirror matches were something I enjoyed.

Are you that kind of a person?

I am! I think they were fun and very skill-based. At the end of one of the seasons, when I had a top ten Legend finish, I went like 25-3 in Midrange Shaman mirrors. And it was all streamed, so people were watching me climb. I think that was actually a very intensive match-up and really fun. I liked the Midrange Shaman metagame with pre-nerf Spirit Claws and pre-nerf Small-Time Buccaneer more than I liked the post-nerf metagame of that stuff. It's because of how much Pirate Warrior took off, and the consequences of it. Yes, Shaman was busted. Granted, Pirate Warrior is less busted, but it's sillier. You feel like you have no control over what's happening.

Did the fact that GvG and Naxx rotated out add to you not finding your way in the Old Gods meta?

I mean, all change adds to everything, for sure. It's just a different game. At some points I feel like I get too ingrained in thinking. In previous expansions you play them for however long they're out for, like five months until the next big expansion. So you start playing that expansion, start studying it, memorize all the numbers for it, all the RNG cards and the odds for them. Then the next expansion comes out and all the numbers change drastically, you have to forget what you knew and re-learn everything.

Well I hope you find your way again man, whatever that way might be! Thanks for the long talk, and good luck in your future endeavors!