maakomori:

deconsecration-deactivated20170: i am chinese and i’m here to tell you that while 她 is explicitly “feminine” because of the 女 radical, 他 is still essentially neutral (立人偏 literally just means “person”, there is no gender attached) and the gendered distinction between written chinese pronouns only came about in the 20th century after western influence the other ways of writing it are 牠 for animals, 祂 for deities, and 它 for inanimate objects and it’s like, hella inappropriate to use them to refer to people i’m sure you know that pronunciation-wise they’re all exactly the same so it is Not A Big Deal i mean as long as you respect… a person’s written pronouns iirc though some dialects also use “伊/伊们” but i don’t think it’s very common in standard mandarin notes from chinese wikipedia: 他：用于男性以及女性，在某些场合特指男性；

他: used for men and women, in some cases it specifically refers to men

他们：用于指代你我以外的人（不分性别），经常也使用于宠物；

他们: used for people outside you and I, (regardless of gender), also often used for pets

她：用于女性（不能用于男性，由刘半农在五四运动时期提出）；

她: used for women (cannot be used for men, proposed by Liu Ban Nong during the May Fourth Movement)

她们：（中文本无这种用法，模仿自西方语文如西班牙语，最早由刘半农在五四运动时期提出）

她们: (This usage originally did not exist in Chinese, imitates Western languages such as Spanish, Initially proposed by Liu Ban Nong during the May Fourth Movement)

Eh… I’m not sure if the tag is criticizing or just stating a fact, but I kind of want to provide some context before white sjws go “OMFG look Chinese people so progressive and white people ruined their language”

Okay, first let’s talk about Liu Bannong.

He was kind of a feminist (I mean for his time)… He was against foot-binding, he moved his wife and daughter away from his parents because his parents were pressuring him to have a 2nd wife because his wife gave birth to a girl. There were quite a lot of things in his writings that advocated for equal rights between gender and class. (Not sure if he could be considered Marxist tho…)

Also at his time, a lot of 儒学 and 孔学 has been distorted by the ruling class throughout Chinese history to benefit the ruling class, concepts such as 孝 were made to promote loyalty between 君(ruler)and臣(subject), and what Confucius said about “唯女子与小人难养也” (which was said in a specific context) being used to oppress women and see them as “lesser”.

All that is combined with the fact that China has been suffering as a result of Sino-centrism. (Pretty much the Qing rulers thought they were the best the rest of the world are barbarians and they didn’t want to trade and sat on their laurels for a good while.)

So at the beginning of RoC, tons of Chinese were eager to study abroad to learn the new philosophies and ways of thinking. “古为今用，洋为中用” take (what’s good and practical) from ancient times, and apply them to the present, take (what’s good and practical) from the foreigners, and apply them to China, that was a very popular philosophy proposed by a very well known scholar during the late Qing dynasty, and the idea remains popular even now in China.

Liu Bannong dedicated a good part of his life to translating foreign language texts into Chinese so that Chinese people can consume western literature and be open to the new ideas that are arising from the west.

Now let’s move on the practicality of that. Since Liu Bannong actually proposed the addition because he wanted to make life easier translating western text into Chinese.

In Chinese, texts are fundamentally written very differently than western language texts, here’s two example example from 水浒传：

(I’m going to assume you can read Chinese because god I’m not translating this lmfao)

话说当时周谨、杨志两个勒马，在于旗下，正欲出战交锋，只见兵马都监闻达喝道：“且住！”自上厅来禀复梁中书道：“复恩相：论这两个比试武艺，虽然未见本事高低，枪刀本是无情之物，只宜杀贼剿寇，今日军中自家比试，恐有伤损，轻则残疾，重则致命，此乃于军不利。可将两根枪去了枪头，各用毡片包裹，地下蘸了石灰，再各上马，都与皂衫穿着。但是枪杆厮搠，如白点多者，当输。”梁中书道：“言之极当。”随即传令下去。

两个领了言语，向这演武厅后去了枪尖，都用毡片包了，缚成骨朵，身上各换了皂衫，各用枪去石灰桶里蘸了石灰，再各上马，出到阵前。那周谨跃马挺枪，直取杨志；这杨志也拍战马，拈手中枪，来战周谨。两个在阵前，来来往往，番番覆覆，搅做一团，扭做一块，鞍上人斗人，坐下马斗马，两个斗了四五十合。看周谨时，恰似打翻了豆腐的，斑斑点点，约有三五十处；看杨志时，只有左肩牌下一点白。梁中书大喜，叫唤周谨上厅，看了迹道：“前官参你做个军中副牌，量你这般武艺，如何南征北讨?怎生做得正请受的副牌？”教杨志替此人职役。管军兵马都监李成上厅禀复梁中书道：“周谨枪法生疏，弓马熟闲，不争把他来逐了职事，恐怕慢了军心。再教周谨与杨志比箭如何？”梁中书道：“言之极当。”再传下将令来，叫杨志与周谨比箭。

~~~~

武松问了，自和两个公人一直奔到十字坡边看时，为头一株大树，四五个人抱不交，上面都是枯藤缠着。看看抹过大树边，早望见一个酒店，门前窗槛边坐着一个妇人，露出绿纱衫儿来，头上黄烘烘的插着一头钗，鬓边插着些野花。见武松同两个公人来到门前，那妇人便走起身来迎接。下面系一条鲜红生绢裙，搽一脸胭脂铅粉，敞开胸脯，露出桃红纱主腰，上面一色金钮。见那妇人如何?

眉横杀气，眼露凶光。辘轴般蠢坌腰肢，棒锤似粗莽手脚。厚铺着一层腻粉，遮掩顽皮；浓搽就两晕胭脂，直侵乱发。金钏牢笼魔女臂，红衫照映夜叉精。

当时那妇人倚门迎接，说道：“客官，歇脚了去。本家有好酒、好肉，要点心时，好大馒头！”两个公人和武松入到里面，一副柏木桌凳座头上，两个公人倚了棍棒，解下那缠袋，上下肩坐了。武松先把脊背上包裹解下来，放在桌子上，解了腰间搭膊，脱下布衫。两个公人道：“这里又没人看见，我们担些利害，且与你除了这枷，快活吃两碗酒。”便与武松揭开了封皮，除了枷来，放在桌子底下，都脱了上半截衣裳，搭在一边窗槛上。只见那妇人笑容可掬道：“客官要打多少酒？”武松道：“不要问多少，只顾烫来。肉便切三五斤来，一发算钱还你。”那妇人道：“也有好大馒头。”武松道：“也把三二十个来做点心。”

Okay, so you read the text and at no point should you be confused about who did what or who said what. The Chinese text usually switches between “闻达喝道" then “梁中书道”, then another “梁中书道” and it reads fine.

But in English writing, it’s usually normal to see:

He said ____

She replied ____

Instead of using their names so frequently (compared to Chinese texts).

Also consider the following passage:

“Stop it,” Jack yelled at her, she reached for the gun while he fought to stop her.

if you translate that into Chinese (with only 他 instead of both) it’s like “停下来”，杰克对他喊道，他正把手伸向手枪，而他努力地试着阻止他。 So it reads: jieke dui ta handao, ta ba shou shenxiang shouqiang, er ta nuli de zuzhi ta.

How do you know which ta is the ta and which ta is the other ta without kind of rewriting the passage like "停下来"，杰克对那妇人喊道，女人正把手伸向手枪，而他努力地试着阻止那女人。

which I mean… works, but it’s kind of awkward?!

So as a translator… a way of differentiating “he” and “she” with only a written difference does come in handy.

In spoken language, it doesn’t matter, because “ta” just refers to the other person. It’s a sound, there’s usually less of a need.

Lastly, let me show you the first context in which the pronoun 她 is used:

天上飘着些微云，

地上吹着些微风。

啊！

微风吹动了我头发，

教我如何不想她？

月光恋爱着海洋，

海洋恋爱着月光。

啊！

这般蜜也似的银夜，

教我如何不想她？

水面落花慢慢流，

水底鱼儿慢慢游。

啊！

燕子你说些什么话？

教我如何不想她？

枯树在冷风里摇，

野火在暮色中烧。

啊！

西天还有些残霞，

教我如何不想她？

It looks like a love poem, doesn’t it? So I mean if you read it as a love poem to another person, you can easily replace 她 with 他.

But it’s not.

He’s writing about missing China. He’s writing about China as a mother figure—祖国母亲 Motherland. He’s studying in a western country, looking at all the sights, but he can’t forget that China is in turmoil, and he has “her” on his mind at all times.

It was important to him that he makes the distinction that he’s talking about a female figure—a mother.

You can certainly replace 她 with 伊, but read it outloud and see how that works, it doesn’t read nearly as well.



Lastly, culturally, at that time, a woman’s husband represents her because she must submit to his will. Back then 七出 is still a thing (look it up I’m kind of too lazy to translate ~_~ ). So when RoC/KMT came into power and lots of women went to study in Universities both in China and abroad, they ended up joining the student movement when it started.

See here:

1911年10月10日，武昌起义(辛亥革命)爆发。孙中山在《建国之初亟推广女子教育》和《复女界共和协济会嘉慰团努力函》对女性在民主革命中的重要力量进行肯定。当时成立了“女子参政同志会”，宗旨是“普及女子之政治学识，养成女子之政治能力，期得国民完全参政权”。

The mentality at the time was that they want to represent themselves and their views and both be independent of and equal to men, that’s why 她 was popularized instead of 伊.

(伊 was actually used as the female pronoun in many literature at the time such as Lu Xun’s 阿Q正传 and 祝福)

So yah… I find it problematic (ugh I hate this word now…) to apply modern day feminism and gender politics to the Chinese Language without historical context……