Friend: T_T Everybody in internet says I’m sick because I ship JxHQ

me: Let me explain the mess : ) book by book >.<

what’s mainstream and continuity? click here

If you want to know what N52 is click here

Friend: Why is people always talking about Snyder’s Joker or Morrison’s, etc?



Me: DC made it sure that the sacred continuity of the mainstream was kept, each writer had to work based on what his predecessors wrote but writers had different interpretations of the character so the characterization was different.

So sometimes we have an absolutely violent Joker, sometimes He’s a smart guy who tries to seem dumb or a man so crazy that couldn’t avoid the police.

Why Am I explaining this? because you have to understand that Joker in the time Harley was introduced in comic world was extremely violent and sadist. He spent the half of his time killing his own men. He wasn’t the character we knew in the tv show. Comic world is more raw, crude and bloody. Of course Harley changes her personality many times it depends on who wrote it.

Harley was written like Joker’s girlfriend in the series, now if you’re not familiar with batman comics that’s the most logic development but otherwise you understand that was a bold move cause Joker existed during 50 years before someone gave him a girlfriend but more even, he didn’t have a brother, a father, sons or a sidekick, nothing at all* and today someway we have big pictures of him kissing a girl and people pay for them LOL.

Harley was a new phase for Joker as a character cause she gives to him humanity what is good or bad, good if you want a more complete character, bad if you’re trying to use the cruelest, the grosser and the most important batman’s enemy to be creepy.

Batman - Harley Quinn (august, 1999. by Paul Dini): The canon origin for Harley in the mainstream (Mad love is from tv/adventures continuity). They didn’t use the thing of abuse, no, they had an idea to keep it weird and dysfunctional: He tries to kill her and they had a twisted reason, It’s cause he loves her alike but different entirely to abuse. This was the strategy of the comics and was reflected everywhere

Comic Harley Quinn (2000-2004), comic Batman adventures (Tv continuity), comic batman, etc at least until 2007 BUT we have a couple of exceptions.



This picture by Guillen March (many batman comics) is a good brief of that tendency:

Mainstream:



-The code: Batman #570 (oct, 1999. part 1), Detective comics #737 (oct, 1999. part 2). This is what I was talking about batman and detective comics are combined though the numbers aren’t corresponding. It’s because the magazine detective comics began first. The story called “the code” was one of the most tender, funny stories. No trace of abuse. Joker: It’s ok to call me Puddin’. Some pages here -Legends of the dark knight #126, detective comics #740 (both feb. 2000) by Gregg Rucka: you have to read them combined. I think this was the most abusive you can find in comics and the next one of course. There isn’t anything implied you can see it and its very bad. Please notice the date, it was written almost at the same time that the fluffy “the code” -Batman #573, shadow of the bat #93 (both jan, 2000) by Gregg Rucka: The majority of the images really showing abuse are from this one and the former. Why the difference? The writers, whenever Gregg Rucka is the author Joker is abusive cause Rucka uses Harley like a sidekick no really his girlfriend and this writer’s Joker is every second shooting someone. BTW Rucka has said he didn’t like Joker and he wanted to kill him but DC didn’t let him. Wait…what about “suicide squad”? Just now we aren’t talking about N52 universe (since 2011). Maybe you don’t know what’s that so we’ll cover it later. -Harley Quinn (2000-2004 and Linked to Mainstream): They used the matter or Joker trying to kill her, no real abuse here and she tries to kill him too as revenge. This comic is important because after many of its ideas were applied in other comics (specially N52). In fact they created a development of character where She reached a kind of equality with Joker, maybe the first time they used development of the subject in the world of comics but there wasn’t abuse. well…in the episode 1 he hit her and kicked her but a)- This Harley is so strong could carry him in arms :S and she did so :D b)- She threw him into a big neon sign for doing so.



-Batman adventures/Gotham adventures (1992-2004): The comic is directly linked to the cartoon, there’s not abuse at all they usually show their relationship as something funny and cute but they make some references after 1999 that I want to explain.

Gotham adventures #10 (march, 1999) and #14: One of my favorites stories because it was hilarious but shows a twisted but sweet relationship. They fight each other but writers tried to make it in both ways =_= yes, that was their solution

Curiously she didn’t mention that time he threw her though a window so no reference to mad love but the strange answer of Joker is a reference to the origin in the mainstream because if he wanted to kill her was a sign he loved her O_O Whatever, at the end she forgave him, just the reader could see he missed her but he wrote this on a photo.

“Harley baby, love you forever.” Link to see the picture



-The Joker - last laugh (oct, 2001): special, limited series. Joker thought he was going to die. Very cute story in that regard. here The last laugh



-Gotham Girls (dec. 2002): Special limited series 5 issues, really good but coming to business, It seems (because of the design and story) It happened in the continuity of the TV series and adventures comic.

Gotham girls was the only real direct reference to what happened in mad love, It isn’t part of the mainstream.



The vol 3. shows harley’s story and makes clear references to mad love, they used some panels extracted from there, again the writers are not the same in adventures.

-Harley and Ivy (2004): No real references. Limited series by Paul Dini



-Batman confidential (2007): Madmen and Lovers: Confidential has its own continuity and my favorite origin story, just fluff here.

https://timespacehigurashi.tumblr.com/post/126947551376/batman-confidential-episode-7-joker-and-harley



Mainstream:

-batman 663 (mar, 2007) by Grant Morrison: his style is absolutely different and he did a strange mess but his Joker wasn’t abusive, he was totally crazy and murderous, I meant MORE, and Harley worshipped him almost literally o.O but here they said clearly “he cared about her” and at the same time harley shot him xD. If you want to know more about Batman #663 here. It’s a comparison with its variant in N52 but just read the 663 part to get what happened. -Detective comics 831 “kind of like family” (jun, 2007): Good story, no real mention of abuse, no exactly…but here Harley had made her mind about don’t be involved with him again and was reformed. A new character, the second ventriloquist, appeared and she is supposed to have a bad relationship with scarface that is her other personality…It doesn’t make sense…forget it. It’s a long talk. If you don’t read comics skip this (About Dini, Morrison and logic): In first place this episode is dated jun, 2007 and 663 (Morrison’s) was in march, it’s confusing because the last time we saw her (2004 ending of “Harley Quinn”) she was in arkham and paul dini began from there writing a story about her getting out of Arkham and reformed (”kind of family”) BUT Morrison used the character BEFORE and in Morrison’s she’s far away from sanity just a couple months of difference :-/ (*cough* continuity staggering *cough*) It’s more or less that Dini ignored Morrison xD Well, in the continuity after when we see Joker again he was his normal himself (his face wasn’t damaged like It was in 663) so everybody ignored Morrison and then DC tried to explain it saying what was writen after #663 corresponds to BEFORE in the time xDD (If somebody thinks I’m wrong expose it to me please.) and BTW It’s impossible since a reference was made about this chapter (663) in Gotham sirens (2009). -Detective comic 837 (Dini. oct. 2007): she’s living adventures, no comments



Then the order in the general story for Harley according to the mainstream is this:

-Gotham sirens (2009-2011) by Paul Dini (just first 10 issues): In sirens this is a weird topic. There’s one reference, a comment of P.I and selina, chapter 1.

selina :“he’ll be calling for your money the second he hears about it” Ivy: “then you’ll be skipping out the door for another round of abuse, humiliation and regret”

Perhaps a reference to the dynamic in “Harley and Ivy” the episode in the tv show where joker took adventage of her for money or maybe when they said abuse, they were talking about brutality like mad love. Exactly I’m not really sure cause they handled the matter lightly, for example the ending of the chapter 5 was alike to the ending of “harley and ivy”, treating it with humor. I’m not sure, their relationship doesn’t seem so bad…In the same chapter 5 Ivy said this:

Honestly this one and other quote from another Paul Dini’s work (game) make me wonder if each time they say “abuse” they mean what appeared in Mad Love or something slighter. >_< more like He’s a jerk kind of thing.

Some images here. here



The last arc of sirens wasn’t writen by dini, so again another writer that is different, his story it’s darker and this time ivy changed lines and said “he doesn’t love you” (chapter 24). Harley said “after all the abuse, betrayal and dirty tricks” (chapter 19) but they keep comparing harley/joker to Selina/batman and being kind of romantic. So what was that? : / What we saw after wasn’t an abusive relationship (He even called her Ms. Q once), they were a team but they were together doing horrible things, I mean, the guy was very nice and all but he was stabbing orderlies. Here the reason Harley must not be with him is simpler, cause he does evil things :O

Some pages here here

And then again the weirdest twist in the final 2 chapters (2011) Ivy explained how Harley is very sick and they carried her obsession to proportions weren’t seen since her origin in 1999…ok, maybe Morrison’s Harley in 2007 maybe not.





Extra but canon too :-/

-Final crisis (Dini): Ultra crossover and a temporary event that stopped the normal progress of the continuity for a while, maybe my least favorite story by Paul Dini (he was the main writer, like a director). Here…well…Harley became an amazon (you know, like wonderwoman. XP -_- ) because…she was reformed…no abuse here or signs of it are mentioned. (If you know of something just say it). -Crossovers/several universes: Usually just fluffy things I haven’t found some abusive story in them but yes, there’re a one or two really creepy. Interestingly I don’t know about any universe where Harley is a boy but Joker was a girl 2/3 times O.o and always in love with another version of Harley…I guess AUs are fanservice XP.

Well, that was PRE-N52…

Game based comic weren’t included cause those have their own continuity that isn’t accurate in regard to the games and the relationship is different between one and another

conclusion

Because of the amount of writers the relationship is never exactly the same and in the majority of the cases isn’t abusive besides being realistic one writer could have written the characters and their relationship different in different occasions (that’s why you can find interviews where they say it’s abusive and he doesn’t care for her and then another where they say how much he loves her) and It’s not really possible put together all what was written and saying it’s the same character always (Joker changes and Harley too) sooo that’s why you don’t hate women if you ship it, thanks. :D



My God, I think I’ve read every single issue with harley and Joker but who knows there’re so many. @_.@





Perhaps I’ll write another article for N52, We’ll see.