The author (Go F*%#, I Mean Find Yourself) opens up about being mixed race and battling depression and feeling like an outsider as far back as childhood. He and Paul share things they’re grateful for and read inspirational quotes from his book.

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More About Our Guest

Buy Glenn's book here

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 419, with my guest, Glenn Lutz. Today's episode is sponsored by Spotify. With more than 150,000 podcasts, including Oprah's SuperSoul Conversations, The Tim Ferriss Show, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, and The Nutrition Diva, you can learn just about anything, even how to get better at listening to podcasts about getting better at things. So, start the year off right with podcasts on Spotify.

[00:00:27] My name is Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. But I do like occasionally, uh, to mention that I was on basic cable. And I did do stand-up at clubs at colleges all over the country. And I think that qualifies me to chime in about really important topics. This is sounding a little bit like Mean DJ Voice. (In Mean DJ Voice) Boy, that does sound like me, Paul. And you're such a hack. You can't even tell the difference between two fucking voices. Once again, why you are bottom of the barrel and will never amount to anything. (In regular voice) You sound like you've got a little bit of a cold, Mean DJ Voice. (In Mean DJ Voice) I got a little bit of the sniffles.

[00:01:42] (In regular voice) I wanna kick things off with … a survey. Normally, I don’t read, uh … heavy-ish surveys up front on the show. Actually, before I do that, let's give a shout-out to our sponsor, uh, betterhelp.com. If you’ve never tried online counseling, I really recommend it. Of course, it depends on the counselor that you get. And I love my betterhelp.com counselor. Her name is Donna, and she is awesome. She is, she is really helped me in the last couple of years. I, I think one of the biggest things that she has helped me with is, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy. And, instead of thinking, "Oh, what might that person be thinking about me," or, you know, reading between the lines of everything, just to take things at face value and look at what the facts on the ground are, and then just let it go until other facts present themselves. And, um, she's awesome. So, I recommend betterhelp.com. If you're gonna try it out, go to betterhelp.com and, um, include "/mental" at the end of that. So betterhelp.com/mental. Fill out a questionnaire and then they’ll match you with a betterhelp.com counselor and you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is your thing. And you need to be over 18.

[00:03:04] This is a shame and secret survey, and it was filled out by … "Izzy." She is … straight, 20 years old, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. And one of the reasons I wanted to read this is, so often on the, on the podcast, the surveys I read, uh, or the guests I have, their stories are dramatic. And, a lot of us have issues that aren’t dramatic. And I think sometimes people listening may feel like … that means that what they're feeling isn't comparable, and thus not valid or worthy of talking about or seeking help for. And, this, I think, is, is a, a survey that really kind of addresses that. So, as I said, her name is "Izzy." And, um, even been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. I'm very self-conscious about my butt and my butt being touched. And I'm not sure if that results from something in my childhood that I don’t remember. One thing that did happen that I've never told anyone is that I was lying on my stomach on our couch in the living room, and my dad hit my butt. He had a weird look on his face, an almost hungry, playful look. That seemed to trigger sensitivity. But I can't help think that that wasn’t enough to make me so sensitive. So I'm afraid I've repressed memories in my childhood." That would creep anybody out. But continuing: "Also, working in the food industry, I'm often behind the counter in close quarters with my co-workers. And it's not that uncommon to accidentally to brush against people when things are busy. But my co-workers and I always apologize to each other. There was one time when I was closing, and only I and my male supervisor were behind the counter. He "accidentally" brushed his hand against my butt. I think it was an accident, because like I said, things like that happen. But he didn’t apologize or say anything about it. A few months later, I brought it up to another supervisor, and she wasn’t surprised when I told her who it was." She has also been, uh, emotionally abused, uh, never been physically abused. Her dad was emotionally abusive. She writes, "I say was, but he still is. But I'm out of the house now." That's fantastic. It's so hard to heal when we are stuck in a, in a toxic place. Her dad was violent, uh, not at her per se. But, you know, he would break things, throw shit across the room. She has struggled with, um, body issues. When she said, uh, she writes, "When I was finally starting to accept my body, my dad said my thighs are too big and that I should work out more." You know, why not go all the way and, and make that her birthday card? (Laughs) "Naturally, I'm pissed at him, and I kind of hate him. But growing up Christian and in a Christian home, I'm not 'allowed' to hate or disrespect my dad." Respect, to me, is a two-way street, man, whether you're related or not. She has had some positive experiences, uh, with her dad. But, she writes, "I use my anger to cover up my pain and sadness. It's a lot easier for me to stay angry at him than to feel sorrow and pain over him not just being a monster, but actually having some good moments, too. I know this isn't healthy and is something I'm working on with my therapist." Darkest thoughts: "I still have self-harm urges and suicidal ideation. It’s not nearly as often as it was when I was depressed growing up. I really now just struggle with anxiety. But there are some times when I'm bored, or I've had a rough day, and I'll just find myself thinking about dragging a blade across my wrists, or my wrists even tingle. I've never self-harmed, but god I've wanted to. I've never actually gotten a blade out, but I've fantasized about it. And the urges are so fucking strong sometimes. I'm also afraid of heights, but people don’t really know why. I'm afraid of heights because whenever I'm somewhere high—a parking garage, Ferris wheel—I always have the urge to jump. Even though I knew it wasn’t always good for me, I would sometimes go sit on top of a parking garage and just listen to all the sounds. It was calming. But there was one time I had to call my brother. I didn’t tell him I wanted to jump, but I just needed someone to talk to. Someone to help keep me alive. I've never told him that, and I don’t think I ever will. I also don’t want my dad at my wedding. I honestly don’t care if he's not there because he's dead. I just don't want him there. That's part of the reason, I haven’t pursued any serious relationships. I don't want him involved at all." Let's just, just take a moment and let that sink in. The … ways that we will bend our lives to … not cut somebody out of our life who is toxic. That she is willing to, that she is … potentially avoiding being in a relationship … to avoid the possibility of her father coming to her wedding. That's, that is, and that's not unusual to feel that kind of dread. And we just shrink our lives, because … it's messy dealing with people that are toxic or complicated. And we're complicated. It's not simple. But what is simple is to say I'm not gonna date or I'm not gonna get married. But, you know, we only go around once. I go around twice, but that's because, um, the first time I went around, um (laughs)—I'm trying to think of something to put in there (laughs)—the waved a checked flag. So, right now, I actually died, uh, about 70 years ago. But, I'm doing a victory lap. And that's why I (laughs) go half-speed. Darkest secrets: "My deepest secret is how afraid I am that my hypersensitivity and self-consciousness about my butt is a result of something that happened in my childhood. I haven’t ever told anyone about that fear, not even my therapist. I'm afraid that maybe I'll make something up to explain it, or that I’ll actually remember a repressed memory." The thing that you recalled about your dad, to me, is a valid reason. But even if you don’t have something to connect it to, it is valid that you have that self-consciousness. That is not a, a … statement of your … moral fiber or strength. We feel what we feel. She doesn’t have any, uh, sexual fantasies. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone? "I'd like to tell my dad he's made my life a living hell. I'm so much better now, but I was so fucked up, even just a year ago. I wanna make him beg for my forgiveness, but to tell him it's too late." What, if anything, do you wish for? "As awful as it is, I wish my dad were dead. Life would be so much better for my mom and I. It would be the simplest thing that could happen." That sounds harsh, but make him dead to you. I don’t know another way to put it. But … Have you shared these things with others? "No, not really, except perhaps to my therapist." How do you feel after writing these things down? "Angry, sad, hurt. It's nice to be able to just let this all out." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? And this is what I would say to you. "If you think you're being emotionally abused, please don’t feel like your pain, your hurt, is invalid or insignificant because you don’t have physical scars or wounds. Emotional scars and wounds are just as valid. Don’t think you're weak because of the extreme pain resulting in emotional abuse. You are so important. You are so loved. You are so worthy of love." That's really beautiful. Really beautiful.

[00:12:11] I wanna give a shout-out to our sponsor, EveryPlate. Experience full plates and fuller wallets with EveryPlate, America's best value meal kit. Their dinners are cheaper, healthier, uh, than take-out or delivery. A lot of dinner options cost around 10 bucks per serving, but EveryPlate offers five chef-designed recipes each week from only $4.99 per serving. $4.99! That's the same price as the cup of coffee that you buy every day. The recipes—I can, and I can vouch for this—they're easy to follow. They come together in about 30 minutes. And, the ingredients are good quality. I enjoyed it. It was tasty. There was some glazed chicken. There was a hoisin meatloaf. Yeah. And here's the other I liked, is a lot of times, uh, meal kits, they'll give you a lot of carbs, but then not a lot of protein. And what I liked about this was there was definitely, uh, a nice balance of protein to carbs or vegetables. So, for six free meals across your first three weeks, and free shipping on your first delivery, go to everyplate.com and enter code "mental6". This offer equates to one-third off each of your first three boxes. When you go to everyplate.com and enter code "mental6". And I'll put the links to, uh, all our advertisers on the show notes for the, uh, episode.

[00:13:50] And then finally, before, uh, the interview with Glenn, this is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Cee." And he writes, "When I was 16, my dad told my shrink I had a 'type.' She asked him to describe it to her, and then made a list on a board. My shrink then asked me who I thought it reminded me of. I felt like she was going in a Freud-ish direction, so I said my sister. She said, 'Try a generation older.' I said, 'My mom?' And she nodded her head. My mom was in the room at the time."

Intro

[00:15:25] Paul: I'm here with, uh, Glenn Lutz, who is an author, an artist. You got a great book called, "Go F*ck, I Mean, Find Yourself." (Both laugh) Fuck is scratched out. "The Wisdom You Need to Get Off Your Ass and Create Your Best Self." And there's some really, really great, uh, stuff in, in there. And this is the first time that, uh, that we've met. And so, I was just, uh, doing a little reading about you. And you … one parent is of German descent; one parent is of Haitian descent. And how did, how did they meet?

Glenn: Yeah, so they're both, uh, in the church. My dad was actually a Presbyterian minister and computer operator. And, um, they met at a, at a church kinda event, singles ministry. And, um, yeah, uh, met that night and went on three dates and got married on the third, uh, third date, he proposed. Which is (laughs) kinda crazy, yeah.

Paul: And, are they still together?

Glenn: They're still together, yeah.

Paul: And how old are you?

Glenn: I'm 29.

Paul: Young, youngster. Where did you grow up?

Glenn: Upland, California. Like, Inland Empire.

Paul: Oh, yeah. They, they had a skate park there when I was a, a teenager. And I used to dream, I'm probably the only person in the world, that dreamed of living in Upland. (Both laugh).

Glenn: Were you an avid skater growing up?

Paul: Skateboarder. But as, you know, I, I lived in Illinois, which was completely flat. And so … it was just a fantasy world, you know, these skateboard parks, which were just amazing. And one of them was in, in Upland. And, uh, so I just thought it was, Upland was totally exotic. And then I moved here, and I'm like, "Well, it's actually kind of smoggy. And it's, uh, you know, uh, the Inland Empire, not that there's anything wrong with it. But it's, glamour wouldn’t be one of the words to describe Upland.

Glenn: Right, right. It's definitely not like Long Beach or anything like that. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, not to shit on Upland, but let me shit on Upland.

Glenn: Shout out to Upland. It's a good place.

Paul: So, what was it, what was that like?

Glenn: It was, it was fun. It was interesting. Like, I (clears throat), I had a pretty jam-packed childhood. I was actually listening, uh, to one of your podcasts and, kinda talking about, as a child, doing so many things. I was a Boy Scout. I skateboarded as well. I was a child actor. Would sing in concerts. So I was doing a lot of stuff. And, um, yeah. Youngest of six. Pretty, pretty, uh, fun childhood. And, um …

Paul: And wa-, was the acting at your behest?

Glenn: Yeah. (Clears throat) I think in the beginning, it was.

Paul: A-, anything that we would know you from?

Glenn: I was on "Malcolm In The Middle" as a kid. I was on, uh, "Baywatch" as a kid. "Diagnosis Murder." Shout-out to Dick Van Dyke. Yeah, yeah. A lot of, lot of commercials, yeah.

Paul: Right on. (Both laugh). So, go ahead. I, I sidetracked you.

Glenn: Yeah. No, so … so doing that, yeah. I think, in the beginning, it was, and, um, by the time I was like 13, I just kinda wanted to be a kid. And, um … yeah—

Paul: That probably saved your life.

Glenn: Yeah, I think so.

Paul: Or, your sanity, at the very least. I mean, it's, are there any experiences as a child actor that you can share that you look back now, and you're like, "Wow, that was really fucked up. That was really skewed view of what someone's priorities should be," whether it was you or someone around you?

Glenn: Hmm …

Paul: If you can't, that's okay, too. But I … I know, I have encountered, uh, a lot of people. When I was in TV, I just encountered a lot of people that thought show business was the most important thing in the world. And if a kid doesn’t have somebody grounding them, saying, "This is, there, there is no meritocracy in this business. And there are a lot of sharks. And it's a lot of ego and users …"

Glenn: Yeah. I think one of the interesting things is, looking back from a psychological perspective, at a very young age, you're at this point where you're performing as somebody else, so before you have any idea of who you are, you're already trying to dive into characters, in an audition room, you're trying to impress somebody. So, you're already performing for people, you know, literally and figuratively. And, um, I think sometimes at that age, being enough, um, finding out who you are, whether that's playing, exploring, reading, uh, time with family, whatever those things are, um, that can be sidetracked. So there is that grounding. And I think that's a big part of the reason why so many child actors kind of go off the deep end. But, uh, but yeah, so … (laughs)

Paul: Yes. And, when you were on "Malcolm in the Middle," was it just like a one-time thing, or were you a recurring character—

Glenn: Yeah, one, one guest star on there (laughs).

Paul: Was it fun?

Glenn: It was. Yeah. I mean, I did enjoy it. You know, craft services is always great. You know it was—

Paul: Oh, free candy?

Glenn: —like amazing food. Yeah (laughs). But that was a, that was a fun episode. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Paul: So, give me some, some seminal moments, uh, from childhood or adolescence that you think kind of define, uh, the world you were growing up in, how you viewed it, how you viewed yourself, the messages you were given.

Glenn: Hmm.

Paul: Maybe your, uh, the emotional temperature of your family.

Glenn: Yeah, um …

Paul: And who was the preacher, your, your father—

Glenn: Yeah, my father was a preacher. He was an assistant pastor, by the time I was coming up. My oldest sister is 18 years older than me. And, um, it's interesting. So, (clears throat) my family dynamics, kinda, kinda interesting. So my father is white, German and little bit of Dutch in there. He was married to a white woman before—

Paul: And here's how racist I am. I just assumed … it was a black father who was a preacher.

Glenn: Oh, okay (laughs).

Paul: Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm, uh … (laughs) I'm … just hitting you with the stereotypes five minutes into the, into the interview.

Glenn: Yeah. No, so he, uh, yeah, definitely white, uh, Presbyterian. And he's actually the … So, three generations before him are pastors as well, Presbyterian ministers. So, I have a white brother and sister. And then, my mother was married to a Haitian man before. And so, I have, uh, a brother and two sisters that are full Haitian. And then, my parents met, and I'm the only one from that dynamic, uh, from that marriage. So I'm the only mixed-race in my family. And one entire side speaks Creole and speaks French. And then my father's side, you know, they're all white. So—

Paul: And they all have parades on Sunday.

Glenn: (Laughs)

Paul: And make Poland afraid. I'm sorry—

Glenn: And wear clogs (laughs).

Paul: —that was, that was such a HORRIBLE, you know, while I'm stereotyping, well let's throw Germany under the bus. And, Germany is a fucking lovely, lovely country. I can't wait to go back and visit. But that's the comic in me that has to shit all over everything cuz he's afraid that he might not be paid attention to. But go ahead, continue (laughs).

Glenn: (Laughs) By yeah. So … answering your question. I think that really shapes, um, just like my worldview. And, you know, it was just very different. And I saw very different cultures and, um, but I also saw … the both sides of the family are exactly the same. As, you know, as interesting as that may sound.

Paul: Just one had spicier food.

Glenn: Yeah (laughs). And one, uh, was a bit louder. But (laughs), but, yeah. I mean, it’s … I saw that at a young age.

Paul: Are there, are there any moments that, that you can share that you remember? I just love he-, hearing, you know, snippets of people's lives, uh, kind of painting what it, what it is that you're … sharing. What, what it was like. They, they don’t have to be profound or big or earth-shaking. Just things that kind of stuck in your, in your brain.

Glenn: Yeah. Trying to think.

Paul: And did your mother emigrate from, uh, Haiti?

Glenn: Yeah. So, she moved here, uh, when she was about 19, 20 years old.

Paul: Where'd she settle?

Glenn: In New York, originally. Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking, I mean. I remember … just those moments where. Like, I had an amazing childhood. But, I remember, you know, going out with my parents and just … things that … I remember feeling like this is different to the world. You know, my home life, race was almost never discussed. It just wasn’t an issue. So, when I went out into the world, I'm like, "Oh, this is such a big issue." And so, that, I think, really—

Paul: Was it that people would look at you guys a little too long, like there was something wrong—

Glenn: Sure.

Paul: —or something off, or would they ask questions or—

Glenn: Yeah. And I, you know, growing up mixed race, I, and just being around so many cultures growing up, you know, all these different cultures have different things that make then unique. And different backgrounds and foods and music. But people at the core, you know, are the same. And, you know, love and the things that we want to be happy and joy and to be at peace. And, um, those differences were so small and so … for so many years of my life, I had to just kind of wrestle with that and almost play the game that I felt like the world had to play, where, okay, race is such this big issue. And, uh, and also kind of camouflaging, cuz I don’t think I look mixed race. So, yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, it was interesting. But, um, I don’t know if that paints a (laughs) …

Paul: It, it, it, it does. And, you know, when you say, uh, you know, acting the, that race was a big issue, obviously in some ways, it is a big issue, but not in the way that these people were viewing it. They were making a big deal about the things that SHOULDN'T BE a big deal involving race. I assume that's, that's what you mean, that, you know—

Glenn: At times.

Paul:—this person looks different or that. But, like, when it comes to—and we might as well get into this—um, police brutality, uh, unarmed black men being shot, you know, institutional issues that some, a large portion of our, our country, um, can't or won't, uh, admit is very real, um … that … to me (laughs), a straight white guy, why, you know, why I feel the need to weigh in on this, but my take is, um … Well, fuck my take! What's your, what's your take on where we're at today? What does it feel like being in your skin when you see half of the country thinks a song is more important than a whole race of people that just wanna feel safe and equal?

Glenn: Right. I, the first thing I see is just, a lack of, uh, empathy. A lack of, uh, understanding or willingness to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. Yeah, these issues are (laughs) very real. And they just manifest on every single scale to the, you know, the tragedy of somebody losing their life, you know, often 17-year-old or 18-year-old or children. And, uh … Even just on a smaller scale of, you know, when you're of color, you know, you're often deemed by the police to be up to no good or just to be messed with in a different way. So, for people, uh, that just don’t choose to, to try to think about that or to understand that, or why someone would do that, (clears throat) um … Yeah, I think it's, it’s an empathy thing.

Paul: Is there, are there days when you aren’t aware of being … stopped, or, uh profiled, or being harmed by someone because of the color of your skin?

Glenn: I think I, I, um … Personally, as, as far as myself?

Paul: Um-hmm.

Glenn: Yeah, there's days, those things, uh, you know, don't, you know, aren’t happening to me specifically. But as a culture and a people, yeah those things are always … always present. And, yeah, it's always a thing. (Laughs)

Paul: Are these any moments that you can share, that someone who doesn’t experience what you’ve experienced, um, that you, that you could share with us? For instance, uh, I've had a, a couple of, uh, mothers, uh, African-American mothers, who shared about having to have a conversation with their teenage sons of … where to put your hands when you get stopped by police. How to react. How to do this, so that you don’t get shot. That, that … I had never pictured that as being part of someone's childhood or parenthood. And … I know there have to be a ton more. And so, you talk about … the importance of understanding what it's like in other people's shoes. I don’t think you have to be racist to benefit from knowing more deeply an experience of someone, uh, who's, who's different than you. And, and I would put females in that same category, you know, of being afraid to go into the underground parking garage or jog at night, things like that.

Glenn: Yeah. You know, I always … If I get pulled over, you know, license, reg-, I say, "Sir, do you might if I go into the box?" I mean … And, you know, I've had different experiences. So I've had experiences where I've been pulled over and guns have been immediately drawn, um, just for turning in, in a wrong (laughs), a wrong parking area on accident.

Paul: That, and, and—

Glenn: Yeah—

Paul: –and, so there wasn’t like they ran your plates and there was—

Glenn: No. This was, you know, "Get out of the car!" You know, it was—

Paul: Where, where was this?

Glenn: This was, uh, by Ontario Airport. And I had, uh, turned into, uh, I was trying to drop my friend off at a terminal, and I turned into the wrong area. And I kinda realized and, "Oh." And I was turning around; it was just intense. It just escalated really fast. But I mean, it, it was escalated immediately. I've also … you know, more than three times have been pulled over and not got a ticket, uh, for speeding. "Thank you for the honesty. I appreciate it. Just drive safe, buddy." So it's, it's, uh, you know, it's a mixture. And so, I definitely don’t throw, you know, all of law enforcement under the bus or anything like that. But—

Paul: Absolutely.

Glenn: —I think, um, there's just certain stereotypes and norms and things like in New York with stop and frisk and stuff that, uh, you know, just … target a certain group—

Paul: Black. Driving while black—

Glenn:—black or Hispanic. Right, Or Hispanic or … So, yeah, it's things that, you know, people deal with.

Paul: So, back to childhood, adolescence. Any, any moments that you can, uh, think of that … just pop into your mind? They don’t, they don’t have to be bad or good or, um … just whatever comes to, whatever comes to mind.

Glenn: Hmm.

Paul: Or, you know what we could do, is we could start to, uh, uh, get into some of the things from the book. And then if it triggers something in you that you'd like to share—

Glenn: Sure, sure.

Paul:—um, you could maybe share where that comes from.

Glenn: Sure.

Paul: Let's start out with a simple one. It's so overlooked. "Breathe. Drink some water. It's all good." It's such a simple one but we, we forget sometimes to (laughs) stay hydrated and just take a deep breath and pause.

Glenn: Breathing. Being present. Being in the moment. I enjoy drinking water mindfully. The fact that this gives us life and this source of life. And, so to take time and to stop and be present with that and, you know, know that you're alive.

Paul: And it's becoming a scarce resource, uh, in some areas of the globe. And it's, I oftentimes, when I take a shower—

Glenn: And gratitude, right.

Paul:—Yeah, I wonder am I'm gonna be telling people—assume I'm around, you know, 30 years from now—am I gonna be telling people, "Oh, yeah. We used to run the shower before we even got in it." "YOU DID WHAT?!" (Both laugh)

Glenn: Right, right. And there's so many people who don’t have access to clean water and, you know, is somewhere talking about in, in the State that we have that. But, so many people don’t have it. So …

Paul: And, and how it is become a point of pride for … a population of the audience, or not the audience, the, the country, to … like, want to pollute almost out of a spite because the "other side" wants clean water and clean air. And, uh, I … I don’t, I don’t get it. I don’t get it. What are you thankful for?

Glenn: Hmm.

Paul: Let's go back and forth and share some things that we're thankful for. And I especially like the little things. Little things. I'm thankful for the aesthetic of Japanese furniture, especially Japanese lamps and rice paper, and the warm glow and atmosphere that, that they create.

Glenn: I'm grateful for great friends and people who are there for you, to listen or people who you can listen to and … yeah, sure. Special times with them.

Paul: I'm thankful for the music of Django Reinhardt. And the stamp that he put—

Glenn: I'm not familiar (laughs).

Paul: He, uh, died in 1950. He was a Belgian, uh, gypsy, who is the godfather of modern swing jazz guitar. And, he … like … just lived a crazy life. He would, you know, he would make maybe, if he made 50 grand in a night, he would spend it all that night buying drinks for everybody, gambling. And, what strikes me most about him—because to me it's, it's kind of, uh, an analogy for the struggle of life in general—when he was 18, he was already a prodigy on, on guitar. And there was a, uh, fire in the caravan that … they lived in, the group of gypsies that, that he lived with. And his fingers, um, were melted. And he was left with the, two of his fingers were melted and kind of rendered unusable—

Glenn: Oh my gosh!

Paul: So he only had two fingers to play with. And, he kept playing guitar. And if you listen to his stuff today, it sounds like there's two guitarists play—

Glenn: Oh my gosh.

Paul:—and he just flows all over the neck. And I think what I especially like about his, his style of playing, it's really, really melodic. He never sounds like he's playing a scale, and he plays in minor keys, but he plays them with joy, which to me is what life is about. Life is a minor key, and if you can find a way to find a rhythm to it that makes people dance to a minor key and makes yourself dance, that to me is the embodiment of, uh, spirit.

Glenn: Right.

Paul: And … there's a story, um, that I, that I love to, to share with people. The guitarist for Black Sabbath, Tony Iommi, was at his last day at work, before he was to quit his job for them to record their first album. He's in a sheet metal factory. He's not paying attention. The cutter comes down and chops off the tips of his fretting fingers.

Glenn: The last day!

Paul: The last day.

Glenn: Oh my gosh.

Paul: And he thinks "My career is over, as a musician." A couple days later, the foreman comes by his house, says, "I wanna play something for you." Puts on a record. He said, "What do you think?" And, Tony Iommi said, "It's great, but what's the point?" He said, "This is guy named Django Reinhardt." And he told the story about Django. And, Tony Iommi thought, "Oh my god! This guy's playing with two fucking fingers. I bet if I really try, I bet there's something I can do to still be able to play guitar." And so he fashioned these plastic tips that go over the … ends of his fingers. And to this day, that's how he, um, plays guitar. He has no feeling in the tips of, of his fretting fingers. And, on top of that … because it was so painful, he had to tune down, you know, slack, slacken the, the strings, so they didn’t hurt as much, which lowered the tone, which gave it a heavier sound, which was the birth of heavy metal—

Glenn: Birth of heavy metal. Wow!

Paul: So, Django Reinhardt had a hand in the sound of heavy metal. I mean, is that crazy?

Glenn: That is crazy. That's a really good story.

Paul: But's like, you never know the ripples that you're … as you like to say getting up and dusting yourself off. You kind of mention that a couple times in your book, about the importance of that. It's not how many times we fall; it's keep going, dust yourself off, you know. We all make mistakes. Don’t shame yourself, you know. So I don’t know how I got off on that, uh … Oh! People who I'm grateful for. Django Reinhardt.

Glenn: I'm gonna go with, um, Michael Jackson's Thriller album as well. I'm, I love that album. It just, it gets you there, it takes you there every time. So much joy in that album. Perfectly produced. Yeah.

Paul: Are you able to separate his, obviously, his personal life from, from his music? Some people can't do that. And I, I can. I can. But sometimes I've, I've struggled with it, cuz there's just still all of that, um … stuff kinda hanging over. Like Woody Allen, I—

Glenn: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I, I personally don’t know everything about, you know, Michael's personal life. But, um, yeah, I think there's some people who, who I've heard certain things about that, you know, I don’t really wanna listen to their stuff personally. But I think that's a choice people make—

Paul: It is.

Glenn:—with, with art. You're, you're mentioning Woody Allen. I mean, you look at those films and, yeah, "Annie Hall" and all that stuff, and—

Paul: Amazing. Amazing movies. And it's not that I want to punish him. It, it just takes me out of the experience of doing it. So it's, it's for me that, you know … What's another one? I love … the way Bobby Orr changed the, not only the game of hockey, but the way defensemen play hockey, and just how dominant and humble he was. And the fact that he was … discovered … when … scouts were at a rink looking at like 16-year-old kid, and he was playing and he was 12.

Glenn: Wow.

Paul: And they says, "Who is this fucking kid? This skinny little kid that's skating around everybody." And at 12, the Bruins signed him to a contract.

Glenn: Oh my gosh! At 12 years old?

Paul: Twelve years old.

Glenn: So was he playing, or was he … on the bench—

Paul: No, he wasn’t legally allowed to play until he was 18. But he always played with older kids and then men when he was 16. And, um, came—Here, here's a stat, uh, that I think speaks to the greatness of, of Bobby Orr. There's a stat called plus-minus. If you're on the ice and your team scores a goal, you personally get plus one in your, in your plus … plus-minus column. Likewise, if the other team scores, you get a minus one. So at the end of the game, you'll be, maybe, zero, plus one, plus two, minus two, etcetera, etcetera.

Glenn: And is that how the game is scored?

Paul: It, it is one of the personal statistics that they use to assess, uh, not only teams but individual players. At the end of a season, a, a … REALLY marquee player on a good team will be, maybe at the end of the season, plus 30. Plus 40 is almost unheard of. Bobby Orr finished one season plus 124.

Glenn: Wow. And so, this is when he's on, when you're on the ice?

Paul: On the ice.

Glenn: Okay. Okay. So, yeah—

Paul: A hundred and twenty-four goals … more goals were scored than other teams when he was on the ice—

Glenn: And this is a defensive player, you said.

Paul:—that's how dominant—A defensive player who also … got the scoring title one year, as a DEFENSEMAN. You know, that's almost like a goalie, you know, having more goals than (laughs) some of his teammates. It's just, he changed the game. And, just every-, the way he carried himself, and how hard he played, everything about him was, was just amazing. So, I, I love anything about Bobby Orr.

Glenn: Yeah. Wow, that's—

Paul: I'm sorry I'm doing all the talking with (laughs)—

Glenn: Please! This, I'm learning so much. This is great.

Paul: —these, uh—

Glenn: That's really cool.

Paul:—these, uh, idols of mine—

Glenn: A prodigy, yeah.

Paul: Oh, absolute prodigy. Yeah. Give me a, give me another love.

Glenn: I, I'm thankful for my mother. I'm gonna, you know, go back, go back to the start, man. Grateful for mom. Without my mother, wouldn’t be here.

Paul: Describe, describe her.

Glenn: Oh, man. Beautiful, beautiful soul. Beautiful human being. Always giving. Always volunteering. A woman of faith. Somebody who's never judgmental. She's the same outside and she is at home. Loves to make crafts, give things to people. Always giving her time. She was a Cub Scout leader. Always just working with kids. You know, she's an amazing, amazing human being.

Paul: Is it, is it … you think where you learned, uh, compassion and positivity? Cuz … it's kind of through your book, even though there's some tough love in here, you know, there is a through line of compassion in both love towards others and love towards self. Is that—

Glenn: Yeah. You know, it's, the funny thing, and I think it, um, ties in a little bit, is that, one thing my mother was always about is, like you said, getting up if you fall and, um, not kind of harping on the negatives. And, so for me, um, being that I've gone through and dealt with depression and all these things, I initially was writing this book to myself. So these quotes were written to myself, um, things that would kinda keep me pushing. And so … Yeah, it's, um, the idea of grit. I love that word. It's like one of my favorite words. Yeah, that's definitely from her, and, um … definitely, definitely (laughs).

Paul: Yeah, the, the book, uh … I'ma describe it for people. It's a, you know, it's a smallish book. And on each page, uh, is a saying or a thought. Like I just opened one, uh, that one of the pages it just says, "Enjoy the fucking journey." And then, um, one the next page, uh, it just simply says, "You won't be full you're not grateful," which I HIGHLY agree. How does somebody get to that place where they're grateful if it's not happening organically? What, what … Cuz I think then people feel shame and a lack of gratitude. And, I have some thoughts on that, but I wanna know your, your take on that, if somebody's struggling to feel grateful.

Glenn: Yeah. One, uh, one person whose teachings I really like is Brother David Steindl-Rast. And he talks about practicing gratitude. And, uh, gratitude is a practice. So … stopping and—There's this old, um, kinda story about, uh, you know, if you, or an old saying, if, you know, you get in a car accident, you know, be grateful nobody was hurt. If you're hurt, be grateful nobody died. If somebody died, be grateful for the, the time that you were able to spend with them and to know this person. And there's always something to be grateful for. Practicing … not just the, the big things. I think sometimes we use the word gratitude as a way of, um, talking about these huge accomplishments or things that come into our lives, rather than, you know, what you have currently. The fact that you're alive. The fact that life is a gift. But, yeah. That's, and going back to what you said about kinda playing in minor, (laughs) you know, and playing with joy. I mean, we're always going through things, and you see some of that in … Buddhist, uh, philosophy about compassion and, um, having compassion for others. You look in Christianity, kind of the key word is love, and, um, which is so important. And in Buddhism, it's compassion and, um, understanding that we're all going through these things. And suffering and joy are hand in hand. And so, yeah, gratitude is to be practiced in … those negatives and, and the, and the dark times.

Paul: Yeah, and as, as fucked up as it sounds, suffering can feed joy, because it's like you wouldn’t experience the mountain as much as you do if you walked the valley leading up to the mountain.

Glenn: I wouldn’t have this book, if I didn’t go through … the most PAINFUL … I went through a divorce, and I was on my tail—

Paul: That’s its own valley.

Glenn: Yeah. Oh, it was, it was a valley. Death Valley, 145 degrees and … But, even in those moments, I was speaking like … you know, "This is painful; you're gonna get through it." You know. It was always like I'm gonna get through this, and, um, you know, having family and … But I, I never thought like this is over. But I would sit in that and be in that even, and be present in that. And, um, and that really—

Paul: And not, not wish that it was different, but just say, "Okay, this is really—"

Glenn: Well, I mean definitely I was there. I (laughs) definitely at times wished it was different (laughs).

Paul: Right (laughs).

Glenn: But, you know, it's—

Paul: Bu that wasn’t the focus of, of—

Glenn: Because it isn't, you know. And it's, it's one of those things where it's like, "Man, you know, this is what's happening." And, um, so to wish it is some imagination. And that's pulling you out of the present, which lead to anxiety and depression and all types of other things. Imagination is great, when it comes to artistry and, and creating something. It's, it can be debilitating when you're imagining, you know, that you wish you had a different childhood or, you know, that's … that takes you somewhere else—

Paul: An artist's brain catastrophizing is its own horror movie.

Glenn: That's a really good word (laughs).

Paul: It is. Cuz I, I have the same, I have the same thing. I, you know, CGI, Lucasfilms has nothing on some of my ponderings on a shitty day (both laugh). You know, getting back to the thing about gratitude, uh, I, I'd also like to, to add to that, that, um … I caution people to … not tell other people to be grateful for things when they are enduring pains. You know, for instance, the person that comes up to somebody who just lost a child and say, "Well, be grateful you still have two other children." Or this or that. It's, for me, it's kind of a personal, uh, practice that definitely helps me to see what I'm grateful for. But in that moment, I think what that person needs is a validation of their pain, and they just, you know, want somebody to … day, "I love you. I'm here for you," etcetera, etcetera.

Glenn: Just even, just being there, some, sometimes saying nothing and … if it's not the time or they don’t want to hear anything, just deep listening, um, and just being in present with somebody. Yeah.

Paul: The other thing that is kind of a through line through, uh, all, all of the, the sayings in this book is, uh, authenticity. And, um … I get the sense that you … are someone who … has … made peace or is … making an effort to make peace with who you are, where you are, um, on any, on any given day. And that's been a struggle for you. I would imagine … having to deal with depression, you, you had to face that. And, how do, how do you …

Glenn: Yeah. And … it's interesting. Even with depression, um … I think, uh … sometimes people who deal with it, you know, when you talk about being authentic, they don’t wanna even tell people in their life if, you know, they don't wanna be a Debbie Downer, you know. And so, uh, being fake about it, and now you're dealing with like two things, of putting on a mask, as well as these feelings that you don’t know where they're coming from. And, yeah, I (laughs), you know, I experienced those feelings very early. They started really early.

Paul: The feelings of depression?

Glenn: Yeah. I, you know, just … even being in elementary school, and just sitting in like a corner … for hou-, and just being like, a deep sadness. Like that (laughs), you know, like I did not understand what that was at the time. And …

Paul: Isn't that just math class, though? (Both laugh) Isn't that just the flash cards?

Glenn: (Laughs) Right, right.

Paul: Do you remember, was there anything, uh … driving it, or was it just a general, uh, sense of sadness?

Glenn: Yeah. Sometimes, it felt like it was a general sense in, in some ways. I think … there was this fact of, I … was the youngest. I was alone a lot. My siblings had gone off to college and, um, I just, I was alone. I missed my brothers and sisters who had left. And, um, that was a shift. And I was, uh, moving different schools, uh, school I'd went to had closed down. And, then we had moved and then moved to a different school. So, kind of being uprooted and, also just being really busy and … Yeah. I think I was trying to, kinda figure things out. And, um, I've always been a thinker. I've always been a thinker. And, uh, even things that I maybe questioned in, in church or, just all types if different things, you know, at a very young age that were kind of leading to that. But I, I remember … being in elementary school and like crying out to god and stuff as a kid. I mean, it … I look back; I'm like, that's really intense at that age that I was doing that. But, yeah, that—

Paul: Do you remember what you were crying out for?

Glenn: To be honest with you, I would, you know, ask, uh, ask god to take my life at a very young age. And I would cut myself at 11 years old. I'm an Eagle Scout. And it's funny: my parents have the picture of my, my Eagle Scout photo. And, there's cuts on my arm as an Eagle Scout. And, I'm like smiling with a big smile in the picture. Yeah, it's just, but I was cutting myself a lot, and … Yeah, it was, uh, I was dealing with that stuff.

Paul: Wow!

Glenn: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: Wow, man. I'm sorry that you, uh … little you had to go through that. That, um, the, the sense of loneliness must have been so profound. Or is that not the right word for it? Maye that's just me picturing that kid that didn’t have, you know, the consisting group of friends and … felt different. Or, what …

Glenn: Yeah. I mean it's, um … The interesting thing, too, is that I was a really popular kid. In, in some ways, maybe I haven’t fully even put together why that is. I mean, my parents are great people and, um, always spent a lot of time with me. But I think I wanted to be around other kids my age. Or, I would just be uprooted and making new friends. And … Yeah, it was, it was interesting. A lot of identity issues there, um, just a lot of different things going on at that age—

Paul: Can you be more specific about the identity issues?

Glenn: Yeah. I, um—

Paul: So, so once you would get to a new school and establish yourself, you would be-, begin to make friends and be popular. But then it would, it would kind of go away when you would move someplace else. Is that what you're saying?

Glenn: Yeah. It would be like a new start. And I think there was kind of like a trifecta of culture, because, you know, my mother is from Haiti. She is black, um, but, you know, I was, I'm the only person of color in my entire family that doesn’t speak French, Creole, and English. They're all trilingual. And then, you know, on my father's side, you know, it's white and nobody looked like me or I was the only one. So I think that really, that sense of like isolation and being the youngest as well in the entire family and … There was a lot of love there. But I always … being aware, it felt like the love was like, "Oh, you're different. Hey, Glenn! Oh, it's good to see you." You know, but it was, like I wasn’t part of this group on either side, in a way. So, yeah, it was, uh … yeah.

Paul: Don’t let me cut you—

Glenn: No! Yeah. That …

Paul: If you could get in a time machine and go talk … to you at 11 or whatever age … it was the most difficult for you, what, what would you say to that kid or ask … young you? And what do you think young you would’ve said?

Glenn: Yeah, it would be along the lines of, um, you're not a mistake. And, to all people who feel different or with different, different types of feelings or … you know, you're, you're not a mistake. You know, that you are created, you are who you are for a reason. And, um … I enjoy—And that's why, I think, you know, I'm really grateful that, you know, I, I have this book and I'm able to talk with certain people and friends in my life and people who I've met on the journey. Because, you know, a lot of people can feel like they're alone or isolated. And, um … Yeah, it's, you know, we're also going through these things. We all have a lot of these similar feelings. So, you're not alone, and (laughs), and there's a lot of people going through that same thing.

Paul: Yeah, their circumstances might be slightly different. But their internal world is so similar. We're all scared. We all feel like we're three steps behind the universe, that we shoulda done this, we shoulda done that, we wished we hadn’ta done this or that. And that the, the future, you, you know, is probably just worse and filled with doom. And I say that prayer every morning (both laugh). And what do you think young you would have said, if you said that?

Glenn: You know, it's funny. Young me would’ve said, "Oh, of course. Of course. No, yeah." It's funny, cuz I would go to counseling as a kid. And I always talked myself out of the sessions. Like I would be out of the session, um … I just knew what to say. And they're like, "Oh, he's, he's fine." Cuz I was a really smart kid. And, you know, just doing spelling bees and top of my class. So I just, I don’t know. I didn't wanna have too much, too many eyes on me. So I would get out of those things. Be like, "Yeah, I'm fine!" (Laughs) "Yeah, oh yeah, now, I'm unique. You know, it's cool, yeah." And then, when I was alone again, all those feelings would come up. And I think there's kind of, sometimes, people feel that way, too … of even, you know, maybe like gratitude for example. Like, "Oh, no, yeah. I am grateful for these things. But I feel like shit right now, you know." So there's—

Paul: And you can have both at the same time—

Glenn: Yeah! Right! And that's the human experience, right (laughs)? So, um, but it's making those conscious choices to be better. And I think … again, it goes back to like internal dialogue and, and how you speak to yourself and the kind of, the way you look at certain situations and your perspectives. Change that.

Paul: What do you think the young you was afraid of, if he said, "I'm in pain. There's days when I don’t wanna be alive. I cut myself?"

Glenn: Hmm … I think, uh, that’s interesting. I … I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I, what I was afraid of there. Maybe not, um, not, uh … Bringing other people down, in a way.

Paul: You felt like a burden—

Glenn: Yeah! I—

Paul: If you were to be you're authentic self, you would be a burden. You're too much.

Glenn: Yeah. And often, I mean, even now, if I'm having, you know, if I find myself in a lull, I go through a lot of that myself. Or sometimes, you know, I'll talk to family a little bit and, that's great. But, um, I usually go through that process myself of being aware of what's going on. And, that's something I wanna, you know, kinda take care of on my own. I think a lot, a lot of people do that.

Paul: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Glenn: You know, it's (laughs), it's like … And then, you know, some people … know people in their lives that, you know, always call and always are telling what's going wrong. And that might not be the fun experience, the best thing. So if it's a constant thing, so people don’t wanna do that or … some people don’t mind (laughs).

Paul: And it's … and, you know, in that … space, you know, I think we tend to catastrophize when we get into that black and white thinking where, if I say anything about myself, I'm draining like that other guy. Where, in reality, you know, that guy lacks boundaries, and he needs to recognize that he should also ask how the other person is doing and listen. And, um, that we don’t have to be that person. But it's so fucked up how we'll get to that place sometimes, where we're like, "God, I really don’t wanna be alive, but I don’t want to inconvenience anybody."

Glenn: Right, right. And you know what's so interesting though, is that there's a lot of beauty that happens, uh, when you have great people in your life who are looking to like love and to be there. And, it, I've had that experience with friends recently. You know, people talk to me. And it's, you know, it's great. You know. So, um … Yeah, sometimes people wanna, you know, wanna be there. And … it's an opportunity to say, "Oh, wow." And, sometimes I think, maybe, um, you're like, "Okay, yeah, I would listen to somebody, but I don’t know if they would for me." It’s like, no. You know, it's—

Paul: Give 'em a chance. Give 'em a chance to, to tap into the love that they have—

Glenn: The beauty. Let them showcase their love and, yeah.

Paul: And, either way, you're gonna walk away saying, "Well, I have a friend that I know if capable of loving me." Or, "I know that that person is incapable of loving me in a way that I need to be loved." And then you'll know to not go to that dry well again. But it's so painful, the thought of, you know—

Glenn: Maybe being stopped.

Paul: Being stopped. Being, or having to be half-assed or kind of patronizing. That, to me, I think, is more, the biggest fear, more than anything, is that they're hiding the fact that I'm draining them. That I'm annoying to them.

Glenn: Yeah. It's funny. When you said that, I, I have to mention, there was a film … and, uh, I'm forgetting her name right now. But she was making the statement, "I don’t wanna tell my kids I have cancer, because they're gonna make it all about them, and, 'Oh, I'm, oh this is so awful! This hurts so much.'" You know. And they were like (laughs), "I don’t wanna tell—" and, you now, kind of going back to that page, when I was, you know, it's like somebody making that about them or … But yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So (laughs).

Paul: (Laughs) Let me find another one. "There are so many factors working against you. Don’t be one of them." That's so great. It's so great! We are uniquely positioned to be our own best friend and we are, so often, our own worst enemy and talk to ourselves in a way that if somebody else talked to us in that way, we'd get a restraining order.

Glenn: Right, right. And those … that's the kind of thing, that saying to yourself in the morning, and actually sitting with for a moment. You know, I think on the flipside to that, too, there is so much beauty and so many things that can come together and constantly work for you. But there are things that are, you know, working against you. But to just sit with that and, "You know what? No. I'm gonna talk to myself, you know, in a different kind of way. You know, I'm gonna treat myself with dignity and, like I would treat anybody else." So … yeah.

Paul: (Pauses) "Don’t push your emotions aside. They’ll shove you back twice as hard in the future." That's such a great one. Yeah, you're gonna deal with them one way or another. So, you know. You can either smoke meth until you lose all your teeth ... cuz that's a way of dealing with your emotions (laughs), you know. Or you can talk to somebody.

Glenn: Talk to somebody. I, I, I love meditation, too. People have different faith traditions. Prayers or just vocally saying what you're grateful for or writing it down at the end of the day. But, yeah, like being, you know, present with those things, and sometimes a meditation, just sitting … with that pain and, but you're in a place of stillness, where your mind is slowing down and … you know, it's not racing as much and you can actually look at this issue in a different kind of way. There's like a, a saying about, you know, um, if you're focused, if you're in a dark room, and you're focused on the fact that like, "Oh, this room is so dark," and you're just trying to walk through it, you're constantly bumping into things. But if you sit for a second and you just stop for a second, and you say, "Okay. This room is really dark. Let me turn on a light." Right? But it, sometimes it takes you just sitting for a second. You know, so … yeah. So you can look at those issues and those things differently, rather than just trying to medicate or do something else to get away or constantly play, whatever that thing is.

Paul: I, I think one of the, the mistakes that I have made so often in my life, or the mode of thinking that I get into, is that success will be me cleaning all the problems I have off my plate and out of my life. Thinking that them I will eliminate worry and I will then be happy, when in reality, it's like what you said, is just saying, "Okay, I'm in the dark. Let me find stillness in that darkness. Let me find a way to accept the things I don’t have control over and just try to bring principled action to the things I do." And the result of that, living a principled life and surrendering when possible is that I feel peace. And I can like who I am, because I'm not action from a place of fear and making messed and hurting people. You know, there's, there's, um … Oh, here's one that I, that, that I love. Was there something that you wanted to, to add to that?

Glenn: No, yeah. It just, as you were saying that, it just reminds me of something my mother used to say. You know, "Sometimes you don’t have an umbrella and you have to dance in the rain." You know, it's (laughs) like—

Paul: Yeah, I like that,

Glenn: Yeah. So, yeah.

Paul: Do you say, "And then you get pneumonia and die?"

Glenn: (Laughs) No talking back to Mommy.

Paul: When was the last time you gave yourself a compliment—

Glenn: Oooh!

Paul: When, when was the last time?

Glenn: The last time, I think, uh, when I was putting on this, uh, outfit this morning. No, I'm just kidding (laughs). It's like, "Oh, these are nice. Yeah." No, but I, you know, I … I, I, I do do that. You know, and, um, just about who, who you're becoming. And the things that you do on a daily basis, and the things you're practicing. And, um … one thing of acting, like you just mentioned, um, rather than acting out of fear, you know, acting out of love and, if you're noticing that, like "Okay, I'm doing that in this choice, and that's a good thing. Yeah.

Paul: And that, I think that surrender to what we don’t have control over, is necessary for us to truly love, because otherwise we're gripping onto fear and the illusion of control. And I think that blocks fear—

Glenn: The illusion.

Paul: —that, that blocks love, that fear and control, to me, are the two biggest love, love killers. I like this one. "Spoil yourself. Celebrate you. You fucking deserve it." I love this one. "You're going to die. Live like you know that shit."

Glenn: (Laughs) That's … that's a big one for me. That's a big one for me—

Paul: Talk about it.

Glenn: Yeah. I mean, I … just living and creating and, I take certain risks. And the art I do and just things I create because, you know, you don’t wanna look back and, you know, hopefully you're not living a life that you're gonna be having regrets, uh, of choices you could have made, you know, or things you could have done differently. So yeah, so taking those risks and, you know, bring present. And … yeah.

Paul: This is one I love. "If you got what you want right now, would you be ready for it?" It's so OFTEN the answer is NO!

Glenn: Right, right.

Paul: But you can't see that oftentimes until you look back.

Glenn: Right. Right. That’s a big one. That's a big one.

Paul: "Give your intuition the respect it deserves. Trust it." It's so true. It's so hard sometimes, though, to know what is our intuition and what is fear manifesting itself and distorting our view of reality. To me, that where therapy (laughs) and support groups and close friends are for, you know. But …

Glenn: I agree with that. Yeah. I mean, I … I go back to meditation a lot, because … you're able to, in that stillness, look at certain things that maybe you're worrying about or the things that are, you know, like you said, fears that are holding you or driving you or steering, you know, your, your life's ship, you know. And, uh … yeah. At that point, then you can start to create habits, where you're not gonna behave from that place. And, um, so that's important.

Paul: "Bow out of negative conversation. It only lowers your vibe." Couldn’t agree more.

Glenn: That's a big one. That is a BIG one.

Paul: And it's so, I think when we're agitated, it's so easy to go to that place. Cuz it feels like we're raising ourself up.

Glenn: No, yeah, it's not, it's not good. It's not good stuff. That's something I try to avoid. Especially, um, negative talk about other people, I just steer clear of that.

Paul: I'm gonna read one more. (Pauses) "Being great starts with being you." Which sounds so simple, but it's so true, to claim our authenticity unapologetically. Talk about that.

Glenn: Yeah. I mean even, even if you're an actor on the stage, you know, you're using yourself. But, yeah, it's … being yourself, is, I think in our society, um, we love celebrity and politics and there's so many personalities and there's so much messaging and programming and commercials and, if you wear this, this brand gives you this feeling. And, we're looking for identity in all these different things. Well, if I drive this car, that gives off this vibe. I, you know, if I drive a Subaru, I look like this kind of person. I love Subarus. But, you know, it's, but people feel that way. And they're looking for things and … it's just kind of all these layers that are kind of like building around us. And, you know, you're at the core of that. And … sometimes it just takes going back to that and, and trying to get in tune with that. And just (laughs), I always go back to quiet because sometimes in the stillness is where you see it, cuz there's so much hustle and bustle. You're always on the move, you're doing this, you, you know, if you have kids, it's even more. You know, you're just constantly running around. And, um, it's easy to lose focus. And then, if you're not living consciously, and you're not behaving consciously, then you start to do things that you might not do. Things that you're, that's not who you are. But, you know, you're not even acting from this place; you're just, all this messaging, all these things, you know, you're hearing the negativity in the news. There's like this dark cloud of what's happening politically that's even driving your language when you're not talking about politics. You could be at the gas station and you're talking to the clerk or, you know. It's just, there's so much going on and … you're at the core of that. You know, when you're quiet, who are you, what are, what, what are your intentions? Who do want to become? What do you, what are you doing with your life? This one life that you have. How are you treating people? Are you the main focus of your life? You know, are you living from a place of service? Are you, but are you taking time for yourself as well? Maybe all you're doing is serving. So it's … But I think, again, it's like … taking that time to get in touch with yourself and, then being able to then move through the world a little bit differently.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, as you were sharing that, it just occurred to me … You know, one of the things that people will often share is they feel like they're friendships aren’t real. You know, that they're, that they're not real friends. That they're, if that person really knew me, they wouldn’t be my friend. Or they're only pretending to like me. That's the one I found out. Well … if we are never authentically ourselves, we can't really ever deal with that problem, because you're not giving them all the information. You're, you're putting on a show, man. You're putting on a show. And I know we all do that to some degree, but, um, you wanna find out who your friends are, start being who YOU are, uh, unapologetically. Cuz even if some of those things you find out about yourself are not great things, then at least, it's come to the surface and you'll have a way to deal with them and decide is this something I want to work on, or is this something that I'm going to be unapologetic, uh, a, a, about? But, um, we never get to … we never get to find out how deep our friendships are, until we give them …

Glenn: Who we are—

Paul: —WHO we are! Yeah.

Glenn: I, I couldn’t agree more with that. That, it's so true.

Paul: How are we not life-long friends, you and I? (Both laugh)

Glenn: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's … it's so true. It's so true.

Paul: Where do you live? Nearby?

Glenn: Yeah. Not too far.

Paul: Yeah. Well, we gotta have coffee, man.

Glenn: Definitely.

Paul: I, I'd love hanging out with you.

Glenn: Yeah.

Paul: You're a kindred spirit.

Glenn: Oh, thank you, brother.

Paul: The Book is called, "Go F*ck, I Mean, Find Yourself: The Wisdom You Need to Get Off Your Ass and Create Your Best Self." Glenn Lutz, thank you very, very much. Oh, and people can go to, what is it, glennlutz.com?

Glenn: Yeah.

Paul: L-u-t-z and two Ns on Glenn.

Glenn: Yes. And, uh, I'm on Instagram as well.

Paul: Okay, and what's your handle?

Glenn: Glenn_Lutz.

Paul: Okay.

Glenn: And, uh, yeah, check me out. I'm always doing different kinds of things. And, really just … unpacking … just mental health in general through my work. And, because this title, for me, it, it jumps off the shelf. I might be like, "Oh, go fuck yourself!" You know, "Who's this guy?" But ultimately, you know, when you're speaking negatively, cuz all these quotes are things that, if you just sit with and let that be a piece of internal dialogue, it's things that have benefitted me. And I'm hoping and my goal is that it helps other people. But it's, when you're speaking negatively to yourself, when you're saying, "Ah, shit never changes." Or, you know … you know. And that's why the language is the way it is. It's like, "No, get off your ass!" Like, I'll sometimes talk to myself in that way, but in a positive way. Like … And, um, so when we're speaking negatively, it's, it is a go fuck yourself. You know, it's, uh, you know, "Oh, you're never gonna lose that weight." You know, "Oh, man. You're in this job. It sucks." Or, you know, and you're just spinning and you're just going downhill. So it's … FIND yourself, CREATE yourself, with the right kind of internal dialogue. And as someone that's … I'll tell you this. The depression that I faced in … my life … you know, I personally, I don’t take medication for depression. I don’t have anything against people who do or anything like that; of course not. But, for me, even though there's sometimes where you feel it, my internal dialogue has never gotten to the point that used to take me to the low of like, "You are worthless." The kinds of things, those powerful statements that, that are so negative that we say to ourself, just drive us down. It's like a hammer, just pushing you lower. And like, "You're a mistake." Or, when you start saying things like that, that's where the depression, it just kinda goes into drive. And it just like, "Let's accelerate this things, and just take it to the edge." And, you know, even if, you know, you're in tune with what you're feeling, and it's, you know … I don't feel well, but you know what? Like, I'm grateful that I am alive today. Or, just even beginning to shift that internal dialogue. What are you saying to yourself? How do you speak to yourself? Are you compassionate to yourself? You know, do you talk to your dog better than you talk to yourself, you know? So, yeah. That's, that's what this, this is about. And, um, in any type of work, I'm trying to unpack those things creatively and make art. Cuz it stemmed from art for me. But, but yeah, that's, that's what it's about. And so, you can check out other work over there that has to do with that kind of stuff.

Paul: Right, right on, man. Thanks, Glenn.

Glenn: Thank you, brother.

End of Interview

[01:17:29] Really enjoyed talking to him. Before I take it out with, uh, some surveys, I wanna remind you guys, there's a couple of different ways to support the show, if you feel, uh, so inclined. You can support us, uh, financially by becoming a Patreon monthly donor for as little as a dollar a month. And then you qualify for bonus stuff, whether it's being entered into a raffle for, you know, a hotel room at a podcasting convention or a cutting board I make or a bonus, uh, audio from an episode. Yeah, for as little as, as a dollar a month. And, you can also do a one-time donation through PayPal or Zelle. And you can support us non-financially by subscribing to this show. It's probably the easiest way that. That you can do it. But, it helps because it increases our downloads, and that helps attract advertisers.

[01:18:27] Speaking of advertisers, let's give a shout-out to Spotify. With more than 150,000 podcasts, including Oprah's SuperSoul Conversations, The Tim Ferriss Show, Happier with Gretchen Rubin—would love to get Gretchen as a guest, or be on her show—uh, and The Nutrition Diva. You can learn how to balance a budget, balance your diet, and how to feel balanced while meditating, even if you're still wondering if the cat's been fed. All podcasts on Spotify are free. And you can even download episodes for those times when you’ve gone off the grid. You know … to get all that new-found balance in your life. So, start the year off right with podcasts on Spotify.

[01:19:06] Wanna also give a shout-out to … Madison Reed. I've talked before about Madison Reed. Listeners who have tried it … have really enjoyed it. It's really—Well, one, first, why don't you tell the people what Madison Reed is? Madison Reed is hair coloring reinvented, giving you gorgeous, salon-quality color delivered to your door, for less than 25 bucks. You don’t have to choose between outdated box color, or the time and expense of the salon. It's crafted in Italy by master colorists. Madison Reed is professional hair color you can easily do at home. It's multi-tonal, ammonia-free, and made with ingredients you can feel good about. That's a really important thing, is not having harsh chemicals and not sacrificing the quality of it. So, like it said, people who have tried it love it. Go now; find you perfect shade at Madison Reed. Get an expert color consultation or take the color quiz at madison-reed.com. And you guys get 10 percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with code "mental". That's code "mental" at madison-reed.com.

[01:20:26] This is a shame and secret survey, and this was filled out by, uh, a gender-fluid person (laughs) who calls themselves, "Something Cool That Makes It Sound Like I'm Laid-Back An Fun, But Really I'm Not." That might be the best name of all time. They are, uh, in their 20s, identifies bisexual, uh, they were raised in a slightly-dysfunctional environment. I would say it definitely more than that. But, um … Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts." I would say definitely. She describes a relationship she had with her, uh, sexually-manipulative, uh, and abusive boyfriend. A lot of her life, she has experienced the numbness, uh, and depression. Her parents, uh, she describes her parents, uh, toxic is the only word that comes to mind. Lotta drama, lotta yelling, lotta blaming, uh, and really no recognition of, of her needs. And positive experiences with abusers? "My relationship with my father has improved significantly, now that I'm an adult. We're similar in many ways, and it brings me so much happiness to be able to share this time together discovering each other as people, though I regret that it has taken this long. He's in his 70s now, survived a heart attack and cancer in a two-year period, and I'm not sure how much longer he'll be alive. Being around my mother still puts me on edge. Of course, we've had positive experiences and I love her, but she keeps her feelings to herself. I feel like I will never be close to her, except in rare moments of clarity." Darkest thoughts: "I used to deal with intrusive thoughts about snapping and killing or seriously hurting the people I love. These thoughts would make me so anxious that sometimes I would have trouble breathing, and I felt that there was something wrong with me morally in my soul, because I couldn’t keep them from surfacing." If you … which, to me, is like a classic … example of what they call pure OCD—and I'm not diagnosing you. I'm not a, I'm not a therapist or a, or a psychiatrist. But it's similar to that, in that the thing we're anxious about thinking, the more anxiety we have about thinking it, the more those thoughts come up. "The idea of losing control over my mental faculties in some permanent way is still terrifying to me. I'm also ashamed to admit that sometimes, I think some people are more valuable and important inherently than others. I try to feel brotherhood and love for all people. But sometimes when I witness the human capacity for vapidity—" Vapidness, I guess that would be—"vapidity and selfishness (within myself, too), I'm sickened." Darkest secrets: "I stole so many library books from my former elementary school, that to return them now would be embarrassing." Especially because nobody would be in there (laughs). They would be, they would probably be like, "THANK GOD somebody still comes to the library! God bless you!" And then you'd just navigate your way through the spider webs and tumbleweeds to the shelves, uh … (laughs). Every time I see them in my house, I feel a little stab of shame. "In elementary school, I, along with a group of girls, would tease a male classmate because he presented more femininely than the other boys. I'm so deeply ashamed of this. I reached out to him once on the internet to apologize, but he didn’t respond, and I understand. He doesn’t need to forgive me for causing what was probably immeasurable hurt. I grew up to become more fluid in my gender presentation, too, and the memory of my participation in this bullying haunts me. I lied to my high school theater camp boyfriend about having been molested by a friend of mine. And it wasn’t just a singular lie. We would discuss the supposed molestation frequently. I wish I could tell him the truth now, but we've fallen out of contact, and I'm too ashamed to get in touch with him again." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Ever since I started masturbating around age four o five—Four, four o five. She is not, a hundr-, 406. And boy, last year was a crazy year for masturbation (laughs)! She held off for 404 years, so you can imagine (laughs). "Ever since I started masturbating around the age of four or five, I've had persistent fantasies about fat men eating and gaining weight. This developed into a sexual fetish that I've been unable to break in adulthood. I am hopelessly, irredeemably turned on by the sight of a big, soft belly and chest on a man. That, in and of itself, is not shameful to me. But some of the written porn I've gotten off to in the past has been far more or extreme than my actual desires, and I worry that it's warping the fantasies I invent on my own. In reality, I'm attracted to confident, fat men. But I generally fantasize about myself or someone else dominating a fat man. Or about futuristic societies, where men must be fat in order to be seen as viable, sexual candidates. I'd like to be able fantasize about these things in healthy way, but because there's very little else that turns me on and absolutely nothing else that's ever gotten me off, I'm afraid that I can't. I haven’t masturbated in two months, and I'm trying desperately to explore other aspects of my sexuality. I'm embarrassed and a little scared that I might never been attracted to anything else in such a profound way. I'm not sure I could admit it to my partner, if that were true." I think if your partner genuinely understood … what a, a fetish involves, they would be, if they were a healthy, open-minded person, they would support that, as long as it was transparent in how you brought that into … into the relationship. And … you invited them into your world, rather than checking out and kind of being physically present, but hiding emotionally and mentally. Because sharing the stuff that we've ashamed of sexually can really bring us closer to our partner. That feeling of love and acceptance and … authenticity is amazing. And, to me, it makes intimacy even deeper and more awesome. Have you shared these things with others? "I've shared some aspects of my sexual fantasies with my partner. It seemed to go well when I told him. He's fat and uncomfortable about it, so I knew going into the conversation that nothing would come of it in terms of and fantasies being played out. But a few months ago, we had a fight and he told me that I should be ashamed of 'preying' on people who are 'exploited' addicts. I was so saddened and humiliated, because those have always been my fears about this fetish. And what I have always tried to convince myself is the dividing line between me and 'other people' who participate in this stuff, i.e. I've never acted on these feelings, so there's no way that I could be objectifying anyone." But the difference is is if you are … engaging it with somebody who is, is, not being manipulated and, and is indulging your fantasies so they can be there for you. And, and that, to me, I don’t agree with what your … partner said, you know. That’s not preying on people; it's what gets you off. You-, it's not like you're chaining men up and force-feeding, and then masturbating watching them. You know … I just, I hate it when I see people shaming each other sexually, when nobody is doing anything that is hurting somebody in reality with their sexual fantasies." He later apologized, but I don’t feel that I can talk about this subject with him anymore." I think, you have to, because it's gonna be there until you deal with it. You can sweep it under the rug, but you're gonna be walking on a lumpy rug for the rest of your relationship. Yes, I did just say that. (In Mean DJ Voice) Uh, Paul, that was so cheesy. (In regular voice) I thought you left. (In Mean DJ Voice) Oh, no. Right here, buddy. Rocking the Quad Cities. Right now, let's hear from Foreigner. (In regular voice) How do you feel after writing these things down? "Good, mostly. A little nervous that I may have overlooked some egregious grammatical error. But I feel that way when I write a grocery list, so that has less to do with the survey than with my own issues." Thank you for that. Thank you for that honest and, uh, important survey. I mean, all of the surveys you guys fill out are important to me, because you're sharing what, what is important to you and so often what we battle every fucking day, if not every minute in our head or our nervous system or … in the pocket where we keep our wallet. I keep a lot of my trauma. I call it my trauma pocket

[01:30:09] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Golden Ratio 1.61." And, I love the golden ratio, by the way. It's so helpful when designing furniture—And that’s not a joke. I'm not making a, a joke. But the day I discovered that was a thing and began incorporating that into furniture, when I would make furniture, it was like, "Oh my god! Everything looks so … so (laughs) much better!" Here's his awfulsome moment. "I was sitting in the car after my dad and I broke into my brother's apartment to see if he was okay. My brother was locked in the bathroom. I won't get into the nitty-gritty details. But after I called the police to get him out of the bathroom, we waited in our car outside the apartment. Finally, the police lady came and told my dad he's deceased, to which my dad replied, 'Oh, dang it.'" I can't make this shit up. Oh dang it. Your dad sounds a tad bit shut down.

[01:31:20] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by woman who calls herself "Hidden In Plain Sight." She is straight, in her 50s, raised in a totally chaotic environment. I love it when somebody accurately describes the environment they were raised in and doesn't minimize it. In fact, she also includes a complete shit show. She was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. "I was sold to 'men' as a five- to eight-year-old so that my father could pay my mom child support when I was returned from visitation rights." Let's look at the irony of that. Selling your child so you have money to support them. Wow! "I was also involved in cult activities that involved sex from three to eight years old. My mom bathed me until I was 10, because she wanted to make sure I was clean down there. She al-" And that is a classic covert, actually overt, way that parents, especially women, will sexually abuse their, their children. "She also didn’t allow me to close my door to dress until I was 10. She started calling me a whore, slut, tramp, etcetera when I was nine, and continued until I left home at 24. She swore that I was going to get pregnant as a teen and threatened to throw me out if I did. I was sexually abused by a girl in my neighborhood from seven to ten, then threatened by her every time she saw me so I wouldn’t talk; so, until I was 11. I was bullied and called a slut at school from second grade until graduation because my sexual acting out with another second grade." She's been physically and emotionally abused. "I was hit or chastised almost every day until 18 by my mother. When my father exited my life at nine, the abuse got worse. She took every frustration that she ever felt out on my body with things that I thought would kill me. I ran for my life every time, because she had a wild look in her eyes that meant she wasn’t present. I survived by hiding or tiring her out. Getting hit caused great pain to the body. She was sadistic and will or would upset if I was happy or achieved anything. I was told I would never amount to anything like my father. I was worthless, and she wished I was a boy because boys are better children. This is just a tiny portion of the physical and emotional abuse." Wow! I am so, so sorry. Positive experiences: "Right now, I have no positive experience, because as soon as something was positive, my mom would ruin it with her sadistic ways." Darkest thoughts: "I hate my mom, and I wish her dead every day. I don’t hate her; I hate how she treats me." Darkest secrets: "My young self did things with men that I wouldn’t do with men as an adult." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Watching a guy masturbate." How doe s sharing that make you feel? "I don’t feel anything." What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I present as happy. I'm an emotional mess inside. I need help, but I don’t know how to ask." What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish to be on the other side of memories, completely." Have you shared these things with others? "I've shared these things with my therapist. We are working on trust. I hate trust." How do you feel after writing these things down? "I'm okay with sharing it anonymously." Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "It sucks." It does suck. It does suck, and sometimes we need to hear somebody else just validate the suckiness … you know, instead of trying to spin it. And I'm guilty of that sometimes, trying to fix people or silver-lining it. And, um, sometimes people just wanna know that … yeah. It is, that they have been served a fucking shit sandwich. And, of course, they feel sad or hopeless. That’s so good you have a therapist and that you’ve reached out for help. And I, and I hope … you stay honest and transparent with them so they can, they can help you.

[01:36:06] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "Bad At Being." And she writes, "I went to therapy today, completely stressed about my long list of topics I felt I needed to discuss. I told this to my therapist so he was aware that I was stressing about what was most important. Once we trudged through the first topic, I tried to start telling him about a hard conversation I had with my dad. But I realized we only had nine minutes left, so I told him we didn’t have time. But he encouraged me to try because it wasn’t that long. So I chaotically told him the story, which was dramatic. I finished right as we are ending to close the session. And right before I stand up to leave, I just slipped in, 'Oh, and every time I look at my dog, I think about him dying.' And then I kinda joke about how I slip that into the end of the session, and he laughed with me. But he also told me we would talk it next week. I just feel thankful that he was so human with me. But he also made me feel like I wasn’t crazy for it and that it was something important to go back to. If he asks me about it next week, I will feel very seen, and I do not feel that way often." Thank you for that. I love when that glimmer of light comes, and people … feel the establishment of trust with another human being. And, by the way … when my dogs were puppies, every day I would thing about, "They're gonna die someday. It's gonna hurt (laughs)." So fucked up. So fucked up.

[01:37:45] And then, finally … this is a happy moment. And this was filled out by "Sweet Caroline." You know, Sweet Caroline, there's a song about you. I don’t know if you know. And, uh, she writes, "I was feeling raw, during the process on coming back into my body after a lifetime of trauma and dissociation. I had terrible days where everything was unbearably bright and loud. It felt like I was experiencing some kind of sensory overload, and it was painful. There was only one album that could soothe me on those days: Ruminations by Conor Oberst (sp?) The songs are mellow and long, with just Conor singing along with his keyboard and harmonica. I listened to this album over and over, and it became a huge source of comfort for me. Eventually, the sensory overload days lessened, and I rarely listened to Ruminations. Months later, I purchased the sister album, Salutations, which is the big band version of the Ruminations album. I had not felt music so deeply in years. I didn’t even think that I could experience music in such a moving and powerful way without being on drugs. I could hear everything. Every little detail. Every instrument and the vocalist and the way they were all beautifully woven together to create the songs. It was a moment of pure beauty. It felt like a hug from the universe. I needed that. I needed to know that I could feel the music and be deeply moved by it. This was the happiest moment I had had in a very long time." Love it! Love it! I love … feeling … I don't know if the word would be voyeuristically. But, like the, the positive energy, pouring out of this survey. I can, I can feel it. And it's so amazing. I wonder if like when Conor Oberst sat down and wrote that album, he had any idea the ripples that that would have. And I think that's one of the things to keep in mind when we think about getting help, is we think so often that it's just about dealing with this one thing, and then it's over and done with. But it, it like expands our … capacity to feel and to share those feelings with other people. And, we can be a, a channel for sending ripples of beauty and peace … and recovery. And honesty. And that's a great feeling. It’s a great feeling.

[01:40:43] So, I hope you got something out of this episode. And if you didn’t, seriously go fuck yourself … hard! That might have been a little harsh. Well, I hope you enjoyed it. And, um, if you're stuck, just remember that you are not alone. And thanks for listening.

End