Interview by Grace Williams

In this interview with Chiara, one of the co-founders of the Pique Resilience Project (PRP), and her mother, Denise (aka “Marie Verite”), the founder of 4thWaveNow, the two women tell the story of Chiara’s temporary trans identification and how this inspired the creation of 4thWaveNow. They talk about what life was like for both mother and daughter during the teenage years when Chiara believed she was a man, and Chiara describes the influences that eventually led to her desistance.

For several years now, 4thWaveNow has been administered and edited by a small, dedicated group of parents; it’s no longer a one-woman show. In the meantime, Chiara has gone her own way, recently joining forces with three other detransitioned women — Dagny, Helena, and Jesse — to launch the Pique Resilience Project. The purpose of PRP is to offer support to the growing number of young people who have realized that transition was a mistake for them, as well as to young people who are questioning their gender identity but have not yet transitioned. PRP has so far released two videos (here and here) and a podcast. Chiara was also interviewed by Benjamin Boyce about her experiences with trans identification and desistance on Feb. 21, 2019.

Chiara and Denise were previously interviewed (using the pseudonyms Rachel and Janette) for an article by Charlotte McCann in the Sept. 1, 2018, issue of The Economist,

“Why are so many teenage girls appearing in gender clinics?”

Grace Williams conducted this interview with Chiara and Denise via email. “I am one of the thousands of parents who have benefited greatly from 4thWaveNow,” says Grace, “and I’m deeply grateful to Chiara and the other young women of the Pique Resilience Project for their work to help young people like my daughter.”

Chiara, I’ve watched the videos you and the other women of the Pique Resilience Project have made and I’ve been really impressed with how articulate you all are. This is something new: a group of detransitioned/desisted women starting a YouTube channel. Can you tell us a bit about what inspired you to do this and how things are going so far?

I was put in contact with Dagny, Helena, and Jesse a few months ago, and we had our first meetup in January. The initial goal was to create an ongoing multimedia project, focused mainly on raising awareness. All four of us have unique experiences and are committed to sharing those in the hopes of informing others about the dangers of automatic gender affirmation and the influences of social media. We also dive in to other factors that fuel dysphoria, and the importance of exploring those before embarking on medical transition.

We’ve had incredible, overwhelmingly positive feedback so far, as well as a ton of opportunities that have arisen for us to expand our platform. Several parents and young people who are questioning their gender have contacted us for advice, and I personally have helped two so far in the process of self-reflecting and moving toward desisting. I’m very excited about the future for us and this project.

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Denise, what are your thoughts about PRP?

Chiara has always done things her own way. She’s tough and intelligent, so in one sense I’m not surprised that she could pull off something this important. And at the same time, what she and the other three women of PRP have created far surpasses what I could ever have imagined five years ago. Their message is one of strength and hope—not only for their primary audience, young people who are questioning their gender, but for parents whose daughters and sons have pursued and/or desisted from a trans identity. Not every young person will desist or detransition, but these women show and tell what that can be like. By joining together as a group, the PRP women are offering an alternative vision that we haven’t seen in quite this way previously (although there have been some really inspiring detransitioners who’ve been writing and vlogging about their experiences for several years now). I really think their insights and experiences will help many people in the years to come—and that includes not only those who detransition/desist and their families, but also others who continue to live as trans-identified people.

Obviously, it’s been a long and sometimes difficult road for both of you, starting with Chiara’s initial announcement that she was trans in late 2014. Let’s jump into that story, starting from the beginning. First, how did Chiara tell you she thought she was trans?

Chiara told me she was trans soon after her 17th birthday, in a text message consisting solely of a link to an online informed consent clinic that would prescribe testosterone for minors, with parental permission. Medical transition was her goal from the get-go, and pretty much out of the blue. She had never previously said one word about feeling “wrong” as a girl—in fact, quite the opposite. I had thought for quite some time that she was likely a lesbian (which I fully supported), but there had never been any indication that she despised her body or wished she were the opposite sex.

But we had just watched the TV series “Transparent” together, and good liberal that I’ve always been, my initial reaction was “maybe she IS trans.” If she had not abruptly and immediately expressed such an intense interest in testosterone and top surgery, I might not have embarked on a research mission which in rather short order resulted in alarm bells—primarily because I learned the effects of T are mostly irreversible, and I well remembered my own dead-certainties at age 17 that turned out to be mistaken when I got older. Her constant demand for hormones (and later “can I at least have top surgery”?), coupled with my phone calls to some gender therapists, all of whom in so many words told me if she said she was trans, then she was, intensified my skepticism.

When I asked one of the gender therapists how we could know she was trans as opposed to lesbian, she said, “Oh, it is very rare for a trans man to actually be a lesbian. Very, very rare.” Then there was the (very nice) FTM therapist who, when I mentioned Chiara had not had a full-on relationship yet, said, “A lot of trans teens just skip that step” and added “he’d” be welcome at the next trans teen support group that week. I actually did schedule an appointment with this therapist, as well as signed her up for the group, until my crash online course in all things trans made me think better of it and cancel. Not long after, Chiara and I together found a therapist who used a mental-health (vs. “affirmative”) model and agreed to work with Chiara without enabling medical transition.

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Chiara, why do you think you came to believe you were transgender? What forces were acting on you?

At the time, I of course believed that I was “a man trapped in a woman’s body,” and that I would truly not survive if I was not allowed to transition. (I wasn’t constantly or seriously suicidal, though I had ideation at times—it was more that I saw no future for myself as female; the only option in my mind was living as male. Additionally, suicide rates by trans-identified kids are misrepresented and used to threaten and manipulate people into “validating” identities without question.) In hindsight, however, I was struggling to deal with trauma, internalized homophobia, and social isolation. I was at a vulnerable place, and not all that happy being a girl, so I latched onto a trans identity almost as soon as I first heard about it online.

Was there a lot of talk about suicide online? If so, did that influence you in any way?

There was a large amount, the most notable being the case of Leelah Alcorn, an MtF teenager who committed suicide in 2014. Her death affected me, along with many others, as it was sensationalized and widely held up as a warning to parents: “This is what happens when you don’t let your kid transition.” This mantra continues to be repeated online and everywhere, and perpetuates the idea that suicide is the “only way out” for kids whose parents will not accept their gender identity—this is a false statement that should under no circumstance be peddled to impressionable young people.

What made you feel unhappy about being a girl?

I was dealing with trauma, which caused me to want to escape my body. This, in addition to my resistance to accepting my same-sex attraction, resulted in a rejection of being female.

How did your dysphoria manifest itself? What “triggered” it for you?

It came on in the span of a couple months, but was still a fairly gradual process. The main triggers were my increased usage of social media, which facilitated my exposure to trans ideology and activism, as well as my social isolation and beginning to learn about and come to terms with past trauma. My dysphoria caused me to adopt an appearance that was as masculine as possible—I cut my hair short, wore men’s clothes, bound my chest, and packed off and on for over a year. I even used the men’s bathrooms in public, and felt good about myself when I passed successfully.

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Denise, as every parent knows who has experienced something similar, hearing your daughter suddenly declare she is transgender and tell you she needs hormones immediately is very stressful. How did you cope?

Starting the website—which was initially a cry into the wilderness, just hoping to find and speak to other parents who were skeptical of their teen’s desire to embark on medical transition—was crucial in helping me to cope with the situation. I suspect there would have been more arguments and difficult times between Chiara and me if I had not had the outlet of writing and finding others online who were in the same boat.

Pretty much all my “in real life” friends at the time were lifelong liberals/lefties like me, who saw (as I had) everything to do with trans activism as purely and simply the next civil rights movement; they hadn’t had a reason to look into some of the more controversial aspects because their lives hadn’t been touched by the issue. So, for the most part, I couldn’t talk to them openly about what was happening in my family.

This was, of course, a very difficult time for Chiara as well. She wanted desperately to transition. Did you make any concessions to her at the time?

I did. At her request, I bought boxer shorts, “men’s” clothing, “men’s” dress shoes, and repeatedly paid for very short haircuts. I was happy to do this, in part, because being “gender nonconforming” in clothing, hairstyles, etc. doesn’t mean a person is actually the opposite sex. I was well aware, however, that these outward expressions of gender meant to Chiara that she was a man (at the time). I drew the line at hormones or surgery, and I didn’t purchase the binder she asked for. (Whether she ever got a binder herself from one of the websites that offer them free, I don’t know.)

What were conversations between you like at the time?

We pretty much had a communication breakdown. Once we were a few months into it, I began to realize that I needed to say as little as possible, because after all, in just a few months, this was all going to be out of my hands (she was 17). Also, parental lectures—or even attempts at meaningful conversation—were becoming counterproductive (that can be true for any parent and teen in conflict, trans-identified or not!). When I did say something, I tried hard to be succinct, instead of going on and on. I would say things like: “You’re a strong, gender-nonconforming young woman. That doesn’t mean you are literally a man. In fact, you could be a role model for other young women in the same boat.” At the time, this all seemed to fall on deaf ears.

Like many parents in this predicament seem to do, I found and looked up to young, detransitioned women who were writing on Tumblr. I thought they somehow had “the answer.” I now know they don’t, and many—if not most—don’t appreciate parents reaching out for help. Nevertheless, I was fortunate to be able to meet two detransitioners I’d discovered online in person when I attended the Michigan Women’s Music Festival in 2015. They were kind enough to reach out to Chiara (with her and their permission) and I remain grateful to them for their generosity.

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Chiara, what turned things around for you? Was there anything that you read or heard that suddenly helped you realize not only that transition was not right for you but that gender identity as a concept was suspect?

At 17, as soon as I graduated high school, I moved to Florida for nine months for an internship on a horse farm. We had very little internet access, and spent most of each day performing physical labor, so I was forced to focus on something apart from trans ideology. Being disconnected from social media, specifically Tumblr and YouTube, allowed me to slowly begin rediscovering myself and my interests and by the time I returned home, I had matured (emotionally, physically, and mentally) enough to return to these social media sites with a critical eye. I found radical feminist blogs, the messages of which resonated with me, and gradually moved away from my trans identity with the support of this new community.

What appealed to you about the radical feminist blogs? What were they saying that resonated with you?

Radical feminism, being focused on women’s issues and liberation, was a breath of fresh air for me in many ways. The people writing about it online were fiercely protective of women and passionate about enacting change. The main points that appealed to me were their acceptance and celebration of lesbian and bisexual women, and their tendency to think critically and question problematic narratives—specifically prostitution, pornography, and, of course, transgenderism. They opened my eyes to the glaring issues behind trans activism (puberty blockers, misogyny, homophobia, women’s loss of rights, etc.), which allowed me to finally realize that I wanted nothing to do with the movement, and the best way for me to fight it was to simply exist as myself and stand up for other women. I definitely do not agree with every aspect of the ideology, but I believe it is the one of the only movements that truly cares about helping women.

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Denise, are you a radical feminist?

I like to think of myself as a “rational” feminist. Some of the tenets of radical feminism seem more ideological than logical—for example, the notion that humans are essentially “blank slates,” with all gendered behaviors being only social constructs. But there is a large body of replicated, cross-cultural scientific evidence that there is a biological basis to typical sex differences, and even some typical gendered behaviors, many of which are rooted in evolutionary selective pressures. Again, we’re talking about averages; individuals should never be assumed to be average. Being gender-atypical doesn’t mean anyone’s brain is mistakenly stuck in the wrong body. Historically, some of the more interesting, accomplished humans have been atypical for their sex. And, importantly, many—though not all—gender-atypical kids grow up to be lesbian, gay, or bisexual adults. This has long been well understood, though in the last few years, the trans movement has obscured this knowledge. There is a very real (even if unintended) risk that proto-LGB kids will be unnecessarily medicalized before they are old enough to realize and accept their sexuality. We already see many detransitioned lesbians who themselves say their difficulty accepting their sexual orientation contributed to their transient trans identification. (Of the essays I’ve written, I am perhaps most proud of the one I wrote on this subject, “ The surgical suite: Modern-day closet for today’s teen lesbian ” ).

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Chiara, you mentioned that internalized homophobia played a role in your belief that you were trans. Why were you more comfortable identifying as a trans man than a lesbian?

In many ways, it felt easier for me to exist as a gender-conforming, “typical” man, as opposed to a gay, gender-nonconforming woman. As I mentioned in my recent interview, I think a lot of my desire to transition was based on a fantasy version of myself as a man—I was convinced that all discrimination against me would disappear as soon as I became a straight man. I also believe that our society is still largely heteronormative and somewhat homophobic, and gay people are often subjected to judgement, hate crimes, and insults. This is something many young people begin realizing in their teenage years, and it is understandably tempting to want to escape those experiences.

Did you talk to a therapist about your questions about gender identity? Did you find the therapy helpful or counterproductive?

I have been in and out of therapy for many years. It was incredibly helpful for me in many regards, and I strongly believe it should be utilized to determine factors contributing to dysphoria, before medical transition is permitted. The two long-term therapists I’ve had in the last few years have allowed me the space to explore mental health, come to terms with past events, and build the skills necessary to advance my life in the direction that I want. I hope that therapists will begin to educate themselves on both sides of gender ideology, and use this knowledge to encourage critical thinking in anyone who may be questioning a trans identity.

What were the things you think your mom got right in parenting you during the period when you identified as trans, and what do you think she got wrong? What could she have done better?

I am grateful that she never allowed medical transition, as I am sure I would have regretted it. I also appreciate that she put me in contact with a couple of detransitioned women, as well as paying for therapy for me to discuss issues behind my dysphoria.

But there were times in which I felt that my privacy was invaded, and this made it difficult for me to trust her intentions. I also had my phone taken away. While I understand that she truly felt that was for the best, I do not believe that trying to cut me off from the internet was helpful—I had multiple other ways to access it without my phone anyway, so this only caused resentment and anger on my end. I do understand that this was a very stressful time for her, but I believe that she could have been more careful about how she phrased several things, and stepped back to look at how some of her actions would impact me in the future.

Teens and their parents often have a hard time communicating with each other, even when the trans issue isn’t on the table. Were the arguments you had with your mom around this subject always counterproductive, or did she occasionally say things that stuck with you and helped you (eventually) see things differently? Conversely, do you think your mom was eventually able to understand some of what you were going through and trying to tell her?

At the time, most of our arguments did nothing to change my mind or outlook. At that point in my life, I was reluctant to change my opinions and take advice, especially from my mother. I can look back now and agree with a lot of what she expressed to me, and I do think that some things she said stuck with me and helped me to open my mind to the idea that transition was not the right path for me. I believe that she did eventually understand a lot of what I was feeling, but it was an unfamiliar topic to her at first.

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Denise, do you have any regrets? Were there any things that you wished you had done differently?

I do have regrets about how I handled some things. I was not (and am not) a perfect parent, and I think the increased stress we both experienced during that time damaged our relationship. We’d been very close pre-puberty, but along with the other garden-variety issues that arise for parents and teens weathering adolescence, the trans issue turned the stress-volume up to max. One night, when Chiara was screaming about how awful I was not to approve medical intervention, I screamed back that she should just leave. I immediately wished I hadn’t said it. She didn’t leave, and I never took any steps to kick her out, but I know how much that must have hurt and probably still does. I’ve apologized, but I still wish I could take it back because I never meant it.

Monitoring and restricting her social media and (temporarily) confiscating her phone are things I feel more conflicted about. At the time, it seemed to me that she was being inducted into a cult: the obsessive nature of her wanting “the two Ts” (testosterone and top surgery), scripted language, and a seeming refusal to examine or explore what might be underlying this (as well as a general refusal to talk to me about much of anything) resulted in my feeling desperate to know what was going on inside her, and to try to keep her safe in any way I could. Besides the rumination on being trans 24-7, her grades had dropped from As and Bs to Ds and Fs, she nearly dropped out of high school, she had drifted away from all the friends who had previously been important to her, and totally abandoned all her hobbies and interests.

In an ideal world, I would not have invaded her privacy, and I know from my own teen years how such actions feel like a huge betrayal of trust. Something similar happened to me when I myself was 17. I discovered one day that my dad had searched my closet and confiscated a baggie of marijuana I had hidden beside a diary. I still remember the burning outrage. I confronted my father and for many years could not forgive him. Now, of course, I can understand how worried he was about me and the choices I’d been making. But whether what he did was justified, or whether my similar actions with Chiara were justified? I’m not sure.

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Chiara, on the PRP website, you, Dagny, Helena, and Jesse state plainly that you all experienced rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) as described in the paper published by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, but trans activists have tried to dismiss and discredit Dr. Littman’s research, claiming it is based entirely on the claims of bigoted, transphobic parents. Why do you believe that you experienced ROGD? How would you respond to Dr. Littman’s critics?

I believe that ROGD is a very real phenomenon, because I, myself, and many others only began experiencing dysphoria around our teenage years, seemingly in response to significant changes or struggles. I did not begin to have dysphoria until I was a young teenager, and had no desire to transition until I began hearing about others doing so. I became obsessed with the idea that I was a man, and completely fixated on medical transition as the only viable option for me. Since I can look back now and understand that I would not have been happy long-term with that decision, I am very confident in Littman’s study , and believe that discrediting it as “transphobia” is wildly irresponsible. I find it very strange that trans activists see any inkling of criticism as a direct, “violent” attack.

You mentioned that you had no desire to transition until you heard about others doing so. Did your dysphoria increase the more you learned about gender identity and transition?

Absolutely. The more information I consumed on the topic, the more adamant I was that transition was right for me. Other people’s hormonal and surgical results appealed to me at the time, and I desperately wanted that for myself. It was a vicious circle: the more I watched, the more my dysphoria grew, and the more my dysphoria grew, the more I needed to “escape” in the form of this addictive media.

Why do you think so many young people—especially girls—have come to see themselves as transgender?

In many ways, it is incredibly difficult and often painful to exist as a woman in society. Dealing with harassment and strict gender roles is a daily ordeal, and media often portrays us as infantile, sexualized, and unconditionally available to men. Women are targets of assault and murder simply because of their sex—the idea of escaping that, which transitioning to male promises to provide, is very attractive.

What do you think it will take to wake people up to the harm that’s being done in the name of gender ideology?

Honestly, I think this is already starting to happen. The response to our project alone has been big (over 20K video views in the first two weeks) and overwhelmingly positive, which gives me hope that more and more people are beginning to realize the negative effects of this movement. Also, many of the young people who transitioned when the movement was beginning to really take hold a few years ago are now detransitioning, and their voices are growing in number. I am grateful to be part of a project to raise them up, because I believe those experiences are very important and should be shared in order to educate others.

Trans activists claim that only a tiny percentage of people who transition regret their transitions. Do you think the number is this low?

No, I believe that the percentage is actually fairly high. People claim that less than 3% of trans people detransition, but since detransitioners are routinely silenced and discounted, I am hesitant to accept that number as accurate. Also, this estimate generally fails to account for people who desist–that is, abandon a trans identity before taking hormones or undergoing surgery.

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Denise, do you agree?

Yes. And with organizations like Gender Spectrum promulgating immediate affirmation of youth trans identities, we’re likely to see more in the future. Plus, many who detransition don’t return to their gender therapists/MDs, nor are they being systematically tracked otherwise. And regardless of how many detransitioners there are, they matter. Their voices matter. And it shouldn’t be seen as “transphobic” or even controversial to ask that we try—as a society, as parents, as clinicians, even as trans activists—to minimize the number of people who will later feel they were harmed by believing they were trans; particularly people who were irreversibly harmed by medical intervention they later come to regret.

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Chiara, what would you say to the activists and legislators who are pushing for legislation that would make it illegal for therapists to encourage clients to explore why they feel they must transition?

I think that would be blatant malpractice. The job of a therapist is to help people overcome issues and develop the best life possible, and transition is not always the right way forward. This would also prevent therapists from digging into deeper issues behind dysphoria. If this law were to go into effect, if would only increase the number of young people who would later detransition.

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Denise, why have you decided to “come out” now?

After Chiara and her compatriots launched Pique Resilience, I realized we were in a new phase—both as mother and daughter, as well as in the greater effort to raise awareness about the complex issues to do with youth transition. Until now, it was of utmost importance to me to protect Chiara’s identity and privacy, so very little information about her was ever included in anything I wrote. Her courage in bringing her story to light has inspired me to step forward as well. There’s nothing to be ashamed of, anyway. Many families have had very similar experiences to our own, and the more of us who are able to speak publicly about our lives, the better.

I suspect detractors might claim the only reason Chiara desisted is because of something I’ve done or said to somehow cajole her into doing it; that she’ll “retransition” in the future. Or maybe: 4thWaveNow is the master puppeteer pulling the strings of the Pique Resilience Project. But Chiara is an adult, supporting herself, living on her own, making her own decisions. And I’m pretty sure the other three women in PRP are also very much their own persons! As far as our family situation, I feel quite certain that if Chiara had decided to pursue transition (and she told me she absolutely planned to, as recently as age 18), she’d have gone ahead with it. Then I’d be in the position of coming to terms with that decision, which I know I would have. She’s my child. I’ll love her no matter what she does, whether I agree with it or not.

Trans activists have worked very hard to deny the experiences and observations of families impacted by an abrupt onset of gender dysphoria. Just a couple of days ago, trans activist and writer Julia Serano penned a long Medium article, as well as a tweet thread, in which she paints ROGD as some sort of coordinated, grand conspiracy cooked up by bigoted parents and backwards clinicians. It’s strange that activists like Serano (along with many others) refuse to believe there could be some young people (the majority of them female) who identify as trans due to social contagion and other issues (which Chiara and the other women of Pique Resilience Project have eloquently talked about in their videos and social media postings). Why can’t Serano et al understand that people are talking about their own lived experiences? The fact is, if there’s any mutual effort on the part of those of us who’ve experienced or observed ROGD, it’s simply a “grand conspiracy” to tell the truth.

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Chiara, what would you say to trans activists who might claim your mother has brainwashed you into believing that you’re not trans? (They tend to say that about any parent whose kid desisted.)

Parents are often demonized, called “abusive,” and beaten down by trans activists if they dare to question whether transition is right for their child. Parents are generally not in the habit of brainwashing their children—rather, most want to protect and support them. Asking your child to think critically and consider other factors at play is not abusive, it’s just parenting. Further, I am an adult fully capable of making my own decisions and formulating my own opinions. My decision to desist was mostly due to my own experiences and research, not a result of my mother forcing an ideology.

When did you first learn that your mom was the founder of 4thWaveNow?

Just a few months ago, not long after we started Pique Resilience, and years after I desisted. I was very surprised, mainly because I had no idea that my mom was running a blog at all, let alone one of this size. I completely respect and support all the work that has gone into it; it’s become one of the largest and most-visited sites providing an alternate viewpoint, and I’m grateful for the support it gives to both young people and their parents.

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Denise, do you have anything to say to those who criticize parents when they do not immediately affirm their children’s belief that they are transgender?

One of the most pernicious things trans activists and some gender clinicians do is try to drive a wedge between young trans-identified people and their families. While there are certainly abusive parents, the vast majority of us who have serious reservations about the medicalization of our gender-atypical youth do love and care about our kids and only want the best for them. We do our best, given our own personalities and weaknesses (as well as our strengths). While the time during which Chiara believed she was trans was very difficult for us and brought out the worst in us both, I’m very grateful we have moved toward healing the rifts between us, though we have further to go. Above all, I’m very glad that Chiara and the other three intrepid women of the Pique Resilience Project have started their own effort to help young people like them.

When it comes to how this increase in young (mostly) women who believe they’re men will ultimately play out, no one knows; it’s going to unfold over the next few years and decades. But I can say this: the future of the movement to raise awareness about this issue does not belong to 4thWaveNow, or parents. It belongs to resilient young women like Chiara and her friends and colleagues. They are the ones who will make the world a better place for their generation and the next generation of gender-atypical young people to come.

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