SoulmaN__ Profile Joined October 2014 Germany 80 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-30 14:06:09 #1 Hey,



so today I summed up some stats from all premier tournaments since the last patch, and the 3 WCS regions becaus the majority of the games were played on this version of Starcraft.



Most of the time I included the Ro32 onwards (if not i wrote it there):



2014 DreamHack Open: Winter

HomeStory Cup X

2014 WCS Global Finals

MSI Beat IT 2014

2014 DreamHack Open Stockholm

2014 Red Bull Battle Grounds: Washington

2014 DreamHack Open Moscow (Ro16+)

2014 KeSPA Cup

IEM Season IX - Toronto (Ro16+)

2014 Red Bull Battle Grounds: Detroit

2014 Taiwan Open

2014 WCS S3 America

2014 WCS S3 Europe

2014 GSL S3 Code S



The stats since the widow mine patch are:



TvZ - games ( -series): 167 - 140, 54.4% (64 - 48, 57.1%)

TvP - games ( -series): 172 - 129, 57.1% (69 - 35, 66.3%)



I hope posting this is allowed. I will update this as soon as I can and other tournaments such as IEM San Jose or Hot6Cup are finished. "I love my family." - soO after his 4th consecutive loss in a GSL final :-(

bypLy Profile Joined June 2013 742 Posts #2 some great research there, how was the stats before the patch?

SoulmaN__ Profile Joined October 2014 Germany 80 Posts #3 On November 30 2014 23:07 bypLy wrote:

some great research there, how was the stats before the patch?

I didn't collect those, but I think they're both very much in Zerg's and Protoss' favor, if you include Ro32 onwards.



However these stats kinda confirm what many people already suspected, that Protoss needs massive help against Terran. I didn't collect those, but I think they're both very much in Zerg's and Protoss' favor, if you include Ro32 onwards.However these stats kinda confirm what many people already suspected, that Protoss needs massive help against Terran. "I love my family." - soO after his 4th consecutive loss in a GSL final :-(

-Kyo- Profile Blog Joined August 2010 Japan 1900 Posts #4 Well, maybe a summary or point about the stats would guide the thread in the right direction rather than just balance whining which is what I imagine it will turn into.



For me, when I read this, I was really surprised at the 57% when I read it was TvP... but then I got them reversed. 66% sounds about right to me... I've talked to a few other top P players and some Ts as well on NA... It's really tough especially with pretty much only one way to play right now. More than any balance complaints or anything else I just wish Protoss had a bit more diversity other than either blink or straight colo openers. Luckily at least it looks like Legacy is going to be adding a ton of new aspects to PvT in particular due to all the timing changes so it will definitely be interesting! Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/

Enigmasc Profile Joined February 2014 United Kingdom 147 Posts #5 even as a zerg its pretty easy to see how protoss is kinda getting wholloped by terran atm, the combination of WM buffs killing Ht play and hugeley T favoured maps is hitting prettyhard, honestly though we cant really complain untill we get a new map pool to see if they were overbuffed

im also of the opinion T is definatley favoured in TvZ aswell but id say the protoss players are getting it worse

SatedSC2 Profile Blog Joined March 2014 England 3012 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-30 14:23:49 #6 Protoss doesn't need help vs. Terran regarding patches to units. We just need retarded maps like Nimbus removing from the game.



It's the same as what Terran needed when Protoss were dominating: They needed retarded Blink maps removing from the game. Instead they got favourable maps and units buffs at the same time, leading to the current situation.



Hopefully Blizzard are smart enough to realise that it is only the maps that need to be sorted out else we'll end up in another situation were Terran can't win anything again. Even if I am wrong and it is more than just the maps, only the maps should be changed first so that we know for sure that it isn't the maps. Changing more than one variable at once is not the way to go. Masters Protoss | Twitter: @Sated86 | Currently representing @DGeSports | Better to die on your feet than live on your knees...

Incognoto Profile Blog Joined May 2010 France 10199 Posts #7 Well maps don't matter anymore given the state of the dreampool, or should I say Blizzard's troll pool. eso-community.net | Age of Empires 3 Community Forum ! | maru lover forever | I LIVE IN USA NOW http://i.imgur.com/EZPrgbW.png

OtherWorld Profile Blog Joined October 2013 France 17332 Posts #8 I'm sorry, but contrarily to what many people believe, pure statistics are not enough to make conclusions. Not only do you need to include stats from before the patch, but you also has to look at why are these stats the way they are. Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com

SatedSC2 Profile Blog Joined March 2014 England 3012 Posts Last Edited: 2014-11-30 14:29:24 #9 On November 30 2014 23:24 Incognoto wrote:

Well maps don't matter anymore given the state of the dreampool, or should I say Blizzard's troll pool.

That's funny because Dreampool actually has less retarded maps than last season's map-pool did (at least in my opinion); not that Dreampool actually matters in this context because tournaments haven't been using it. That's funny because Dreampool actually has less retarded maps than last season's map-pool did (at least in my opinion); not that Dreampool actually matters in this context because tournaments haven't been using it. Masters Protoss | Twitter: @Sated86 | Currently representing @DGeSports | Better to die on your feet than live on your knees...

SoulmaN__ Profile Joined October 2014 Germany 80 Posts #10 On November 30 2014 23:15 -Kyo- wrote:

Well, maybe a summary or point about the stats would guide the thread in the right direction rather than just balance whining which is what I imagine it will turn into.



For me, when I read this, I was really surprised at the 57% when I read it was TvP... but then I got them reversed. 66% sounds about right to me... I've talked to a few other top P players and some Ts as well on NA... It's really tough especially with pretty much only one way to play right now. More than any balance complaints or anything else I just wish Protoss had a bit more diversity other than either blink or straight colo openers. Luckily at least it looks like Legacy is going to be adding a ton of new aspects to PvT in particular due to all the timing changes so it will definitely be interesting!



Do you mean like balance proposals? Because in my opinion a simple reduction of widow mine splash against shields (like down to +10 or +15 flat, or maybe reinclude actual splash for the +shield damage instaed of the flat damage) would hugely help PvT get back on the tracks.



And reincluding Transformation servos, but reducing it's cost to 50/50/60 seconds will balance out Terran options in the early game, both being more commitment and easier to scout, and help Mech a little compared to before the hellbat patch. Do you mean like balance proposals? Because in my opinion a simple reduction of widow mine splash against shields (like down to +10 or +15 flat, or maybe reinclude actual splash for the +shield damage instaed of the flat damage) would hugely help PvT get back on the tracks.And reincluding Transformation servos, but reducing it's cost to 50/50/60 seconds will balance out Terran options in the early game, both being more commitment and easier to scout, and help Mech a little compared to before the hellbat patch. "I love my family." - soO after his 4th consecutive loss in a GSL final :-(

Enigmasc Profile Joined February 2014 United Kingdom 147 Posts #11 On November 30 2014 23:30 SoulmaN__ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 30 2014 23:15 -Kyo- wrote:

Well, maybe a summary or point about the stats would guide the thread in the right direction rather than just balance whining which is what I imagine it will turn into.



For me, when I read this, I was really surprised at the 57% when I read it was TvP... but then I got them reversed. 66% sounds about right to me... I've talked to a few other top P players and some Ts as well on NA... It's really tough especially with pretty much only one way to play right now. More than any balance complaints or anything else I just wish Protoss had a bit more diversity other than either blink or straight colo openers. Luckily at least it looks like Legacy is going to be adding a ton of new aspects to PvT in particular due to all the timing changes so it will definitely be interesting!



Do you mean like balance proposals? Because in my opinion a simple reduction of widow mine splash against shields (like down to +10 or +15 flat, or maybe reinclude actual splash for the +shield damage instaed of the flat damage) would hugely help PvT get back on the tracks.



And reincluding Transformation servos, but reducing it's cost to 50/50/60 seconds will balance out Terran options in the early game, both being more commitment and easier to scout, and help Mech a little compared to before the hellbat patch. Do you mean like balance proposals? Because in my opinion a simple reduction of widow mine splash against shields (like down to +10 or +15 flat, or maybe reinclude actual splash for the +shield damage instaed of the flat damage) would hugely help PvT get back on the tracks.And reincluding Transformation servos, but reducing it's cost to 50/50/60 seconds will balance out Terran options in the early game, both being more commitment and easier to scout, and help Mech a little compared to before the hellbat patch.



honestly i hope blizzard just tries a less T favoured map pool and see how that goes first, because while protoss is struggling id rather not have it swing back to terran getting curbstomped after being over-nerfed again



the transformation servos change would have a much much bigger effect in TvZ than tvp tbh and mean zergs can play a bit more greedy earlygame to get to midgame ona good footing.surprise mech really isnt a problem in TvP or TvZ because its so easy to scout, while you can proxy a stargate or dt or even use overlord creep to hide zerg tech, hiding 3+factories is pretty impossible, and heck even 2 factories gives away its not bio :S honestly i hope blizzard just tries a less T favoured map pool and see how that goes first, because while protoss is struggling id rather not have it swing back to terran getting curbstomped after being over-nerfed againthe transformation servos change would have a much much bigger effect in TvZ than tvp tbh and mean zergs can play a bit more greedy earlygame to get to midgame ona good footing.surprise mech really isnt a problem in TvP or TvZ because its so easy to scout, while you can proxy a stargate or dt or even use overlord creep to hide zerg tech, hiding 3+factories is pretty impossible, and heck even 2 factories gives away its not bio :S

Almand Profile Joined September 2012 19 Posts #12 Map pool of yeonsu clones incoming next season.

SoulmaN__ Profile Joined October 2014 Germany 80 Posts #13 On November 30 2014 23:37 Enigmasc wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 30 2014 23:30 SoulmaN__ wrote:

On November 30 2014 23:15 -Kyo- wrote:

Well, maybe a summary or point about the stats would guide the thread in the right direction rather than just balance whining which is what I imagine it will turn into.



For me, when I read this, I was really surprised at the 57% when I read it was TvP... but then I got them reversed. 66% sounds about right to me... I've talked to a few other top P players and some Ts as well on NA... It's really tough especially with pretty much only one way to play right now. More than any balance complaints or anything else I just wish Protoss had a bit more diversity other than either blink or straight colo openers. Luckily at least it looks like Legacy is going to be adding a ton of new aspects to PvT in particular due to all the timing changes so it will definitely be interesting!



Do you mean like balance proposals? Because in my opinion a simple reduction of widow mine splash against shields (like down to +10 or +15 flat, or maybe reinclude actual splash for the +shield damage instaed of the flat damage) would hugely help PvT get back on the tracks.



And reincluding Transformation servos, but reducing it's cost to 50/50/60 seconds will balance out Terran options in the early game, both being more commitment and easier to scout, and help Mech a little compared to before the hellbat patch. Do you mean like balance proposals? Because in my opinion a simple reduction of widow mine splash against shields (like down to +10 or +15 flat, or maybe reinclude actual splash for the +shield damage instaed of the flat damage) would hugely help PvT get back on the tracks.And reincluding Transformation servos, but reducing it's cost to 50/50/60 seconds will balance out Terran options in the early game, both being more commitment and easier to scout, and help Mech a little compared to before the hellbat patch.



the transformation servos change would have a much much bigger effect in TvZ than TvP the transformation servos change would have a much much bigger effect in TvZ than TvP



That's the purpose of it, Zerg has big time trouble scouting anything other than 3CC in ZvT, so reducing the amount of options Terran has will help equalize the matchup. That's the purpose of it, Zerg has big time trouble scouting anything other than 3CC in ZvT, so reducing the amount of options Terran has will help equalize the matchup. "I love my family." - soO after his 4th consecutive loss in a GSL final :-(

KelsierSC Profile Blog Joined March 2013 United Kingdom 10392 Posts #14 This thread can only end well Zerg for Life

Nebuchad Profile Blog Joined December 2012 Switzerland 10158 Posts #15 The thread is doing better than expected, honestly. Most people recognize that the path that makes sense involves doing nothing and changing the maps. You would think that's obvious, but history tells us it's not. "It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."

sibs Profile Joined July 2012 635 Posts #16 On the ginormous designated balance discussion thread AntiRW posted stats of TvP/PvZ/TvZ including only code S participants or top50 aligulac players, terran pretty much runs away with it, very similar to those stats, a new map pool will help but unless it's a ridiculous map pool I think Terran's will still be favored, also you're going to have to come up with a map pool that doesnt favor Protoss vs Zerg, and doesnt favor Terran in either MU's.

[PkF] Wire Profile Joined March 2013 France 22019 Posts #17 On November 30 2014 23:20 SatedSC2 wrote:

Protoss doesn't need help vs. Terran regarding patches to units. We just need retarded maps like Nimbus removing from the game.



It's the same as what Terran needed when Protoss were dominating: They needed retarded Blink maps removing from the game. Instead they got favourable maps and units buffs at the same time, leading to the current situation.



Hopefully Blizzard are smart enough to realise that it is only the maps that need to be sorted out else we'll end up in another situation were Terran can't win anything again. Even if I am wrong and it is more than just the maps, only the maps should be changed first so that we know for sure that it isn't the maps. Changing more than one variable at once is not the way to go.



Definitely exactly this. Get rid of the dreadful Catallena/Nimbus etc, give us a sound map pool and see how it goes. Then tamper with balance if things are still problematic. Not two things at the same time. Definitely exactly this. Get rid of the dreadful Catallena/Nimbus etc, give us a sound map pool and see how it goes. Then tamper with balance if things are still problematic. Not two things at the same time.

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts #18 On December 01 2014 00:30 sibs wrote:

On the ginormous designated balance discussion thread AntiRW posted stats of TvP/PvZ/TvZ including only code S participants or top50 aligulac players, terran pretty much runs away with it, very similar to those stats, a new map pool will help but unless it's a ridiculous map pool I think Terran's will still be favored, also you're going to have to come up with a map pool that doesnt favor Protoss vs Zerg, and doesnt favor Terran in either MU's.



Some of the maps are pretty ridiculous in Terran's favor, at least in some matchups. Nimbus TvP might be the most imbalanced map on TLPD since forever. And Catallena and Foxtrot are still pretty ridiculous, even if not Nimbus level. You don't need to have a ridiculous mappool, just throw out the maps that are under 45-55.



It's inevitable that sometimes some a will play out in favor of a race and it has always been like that. But usually that means like 45-55. Going close to 40-60 and lower is inacceptable. Even the maps that Terran's complaint about because of blink allins weren't half as bad statswise.

Also usually mappools swing both ways, but these days in PvT Protoss' best choices are more or less 1-3 balanced maps and from there it is all downhill with 4maps lower than 45-55 stats. Some of the maps are pretty ridiculous in Terran's favor, at least in some matchups. Nimbus TvP might be the most imbalanced map on TLPD since forever. And Catallena and Foxtrot are still pretty ridiculous, even if not Nimbus level. You don't need to have a ridiculous mappool, just throw out the maps that are under 45-55.It's inevitable that sometimes some a will play out in favor of a race and it has always been like that. But usually that means like 45-55. Going close to 40-60 and lower is inacceptable. Even the maps that Terran's complaint about because of blink allins weren't half as bad statswise.Also usually mappools swing both ways, but these days in PvT Protoss' best choices are more or less 1-3 balanced maps and from there it is all downhill with 4maps lower than 45-55 stats.

Maniak_ Profile Joined October 2010 France 305 Posts #19 On December 01 2014 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:

The thread is doing better than expected, honestly. Most people recognize that the path that makes sense involves doing nothing and changing the maps. You would think that's obvious, but history tells us it's not.

It would have been the thing to do in july instead of doing both. Doing only one now may not be enough to fix this mistake. Still it'd be a start and we'll see what happens afterwards. No need to rush things, we're already seeing what that accomplishes.



It would have been the thing to do in july instead of doing both. Doing only one now may not be enough to fix this mistake. Still it'd be a start and we'll see what happens afterwards. No need to rush things, we're already seeing what that accomplishes. On December 01 2014 00:30 sibs wrote:

On the ginormous designated balance discussion thread AntiRW posted stats of TvP/PvZ/TvZ including only code S participants or top50 aligulac players, terran pretty much runs away with it, very similar to those stats, a new map pool will help but unless it's a ridiculous map pool I think Terran's will still be favored, also you're going to have to come up with a map pool that doesnt favor Protoss vs Zerg, and doesnt favor Terran in either MU's.

Which points to what may be the main issue, as in the huge amount of constraints on map design caused by race design.

The way things are going, we'll end up with only variations on the same map because anything else favors a specific race.

It wouldn't be that bad if all races were more or less equally favored over the entire map pool, but still... being able to have more varied maps without breaking balance would be nice. Hopefully LotV will help (zergs being able to break force fields is a good step in that direction... if it reaches beta). Which points to what may be the main issue, as in the huge amount of constraints on map design caused by race design.The way things are going, we'll end up with only variations on the same map because anything else favors a specific race.It wouldn't be that bad if all races were more or less equally favored over the entire map pool, but still... being able to have more varied maps without breaking balance would be nice. Hopefully LotV will help (zergs being able to break force fields is a good step in that direction... if it reaches beta). "They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyzed before they can get certified, but they don't make a surgeon get cut on. Does that seem right to you?" -- Jubal Early - Firefly

ZenithM Profile Joined February 2011 France 15950 Posts #20 Right where Terran's meant to be.

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