I don't really have much to add in regards to Entei, I honestly don't feel very strongly about that mon either way, from my playing it's been a sort of nuisance, but quite easy to take advantage of at times... More on that later.



I absolutely agree with col on one point he makes, or at least my reading of his argument, about the state of the tier versus the rigidity with which we view the tier as it is. MegaToise is a really good example of this, not only is the speedy set largely obsolete with regards as to what is being used, it's also looking obsolete as to why it's being used. A lot of the MegaToises you see seek to pivot into far slower threats, take advantage of its bulk to check some offensive threats, and use that considerable offence to keep defensive mons at bay while allowing for semi-free removal. But hardly any of this requires the max speed timid spread, if anything, it impedes it from at least one of those key roles because it get chipped and threatened by faster mons even more. And with regards to Entei, obviously like col said, the usage of that spread scares you into panic checks for it whereas you probably have a decent one right there that is being misused.



But it's not as if changing our habits on MegaToise really changes everything, but similarly, people forget about the plethora of waters we have in this tier as if the argument when it comes to selection is Blastoise versus Milotic. Both dodmen and col are correct: stuff like Slowbro, Kingdra, Slowking are actually really good, and not just for Entei. Slowbro pivots quite well into threatening physical attackers, and while the potential of z-moves is troublesome, it's quite literally the same issue for all bulky waters, but this one doesn't actually need to spam recovery and can even threaten dangerous grasses and fightings in a way that Milotic simply cannot with the bulky set. Kingdra was almost always seen as a Milo countermeasure, but Entei gives it a certain freedom to hurt that archetype with how spammable those stabs are and how difficult they are to counteract effecitvely. Slowking has seen a resurgence of boosting sets, particularly NP, which comes with recovery unlike the too rigid AV set, that while still good, also seems to underperform in the current meta. And I would honestly add Vaporeon to this: it's the only wishpasser that semi reliably heals mainstays on this kind of balance, Florges doesn't provide enough health, Audino is extremely passive and Umbreon struggles with covering steel's weak points, that latter point has almost always been the issue of stall in the current generation, but is even more noticeable when you try to push for a more offensive build. Oh, and we haven't mentioned Barbaracle yet!



That also kinda bring me to my main concern, in that while I share the annoyance for a move as lottery inducing as Sacred Fire, people dramatize 1 - it's spammability and 2 - Entei's coverage. Something like Barbaracle absolutely takes advantage of Entei to setup, regardless of the potential burn chance. I feel as if stopping all discussions before it begins doesn't really reflect how games can go, and how regardless of the high chance of burn, the Entei user has roughly the same dilemma as someone trying to take advantage of the lock into Sacred Fire, that game doesn't feel as onesided to me as it seems to be in this thread, and I'd be curious to see a more open discussion about playing with those odds and the inherent risk to it. To me, Sacred Fire is a more haxy, but far less reliable Thousand Arrows in terms of actual considerations in a game. Consider that CB Thousand Arrows has almost entirely by itself made DD Zydog a very serious threat in the current meta, something that Entei could only dream of due to its rigidity and lack of decisive boosting. Second point is coverage. Entei may be able to throw a Tantrum now, that still is a 75 bp move that can be exploited relatively easily. Same with Stone Edge, which gives free setups to almost all fighters or an ability to come in and trade with almost any member on the Entei team. Espeed is good, but significantly risky as well, it's a ridiculously weak move and some of the threats looking to exploit it - Barb, RP TTrum - won't fall over to it the next time you are coming in.



... I know I said I don't particularly care for it, but I probably care for the discussion a bit more, I guess? I don't feel like Entei has been given a very fair shot in this thread, and from the discussions I had with people remembering it from RU Alpha, it sometimes honestly felt like we were remembering two widely different metagames. But overall, if Entei manages to makes us consider a variety of mons that we weren't thinking of in our teambuilding and having those mons be successful in the current metagame... I would honestly consider that a good thing.