Stam Profile Joined April 2011 24 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-21 15:29:21 #1



Destiny has been using a two base infestor and zergling timing attack against Protoss on his stream and it has been very effective. The attack is frequently able to take out the nexus at the expansion. The power of the attack comes from using all available infestor energy on infested terrans which can be lobbed past structures and past or on top of sentries guarding at the front of the expo. The stream of lings can be used to 'tank' for the infested terrans as they try to snipe key structures.



The build works best against Blink and Stargate openings since an early observer allows the enemy to attack the burrowed infestors before they reach the opponent base. Once the infestors reach the base one or two cannons behind the wall don't seem to be enough to prevent this attack (the infestors are frequently able to lob the infested terrans much too quickly for the opponent to react in time)



The opening is still the 11 pool 18 hatch. Burrow is researched. Lings are +1/+1 at time of attack. Five infestors are ready at about 11:30



This video shows Destiny performing the build and explaining some of his reasoning:



To any mod: I meant to add [D] to the title. Can someone do this for me. ThanksDestiny has been using a two base infestor and zergling timing attack against Protoss on his stream and it has been very effective. The attack is frequently able to take out the nexus at the expansion. The power of the attack comes from using all available infestor energy on infested terrans which can be lobbed past structures and past or on top of sentries guarding at the front of the expo. The stream of lings can be used to 'tank' for the infested terrans as they try to snipe key structures.The build works best against Blink and Stargate openings since an early observer allows the enemy to attack the burrowed infestors before they reach the opponent base. Once the infestors reach the base one or two cannons behind the wall don't seem to be enough to prevent this attack (the infestors are frequently able to lob the infested terrans much too quickly for the opponent to react in time)The opening is still the 11 pool 18 hatch. Burrow is researched. Lings are +1/+1 at time of attack. Five infestors are ready at about 11:30This video shows Destiny performing the build and explaining some of his reasoning:



Here, Destiny uses this strategy against Huk:



Here, Destiny uses this strategy against Huk:



MormonWithoutACause Profile Joined March 2011 United States 94 Posts #2 Thing is... only greedy FE don't put at LEAST 2 cannons in the natural, same thing as the early observer AND can effectively kill the "tanking" zerglings. I can see how it punishes greedy play, but if you aren't playing a pro punishing a greedy play is a LOT easier with the roach/ling or speedling Allin. One of the interesting things is if it is scouted there is really no key way of tellling ( like for roach/ling the drones are stilll in gas) if the Zerg hides his infestor tech.

cscarfo1 Profile Joined March 2011 United States 290 Posts #3 It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors RIP oGs :( Bisu~ MC~Jaedong~Hero~Tyler~Flash~NaNi~DRG~MVP~Nestea~FXOz~and of course ForGG

GhandiEAGLE Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 11450 Posts #4 I saw this on Day9 and he gave a WAY better explanation, when you can you should put up a link to the daily. Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands

MrDudeMan Profile Joined April 2011 Canada 972 Posts #5 On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote:

It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors





Actually no. The timing push is a lot better against protoss then it is against terran. Also in the game against Time, the reason he was unable to take down the nexus was because of bad micro, if he had focused it down earlier it would have gone down. Also the reason he lost was because he thought Time would go for templar tech instead of colossus, and destiny began to make roaches, if he had made zerglings/infestors he probably could have held it off (assuming he micro'ed correctly). Actually no. The timing push is a lot better against protoss then it is against terran. Also in the game against Time, the reason he was unable to take down the nexus was because of bad micro, if he had focused it down earlier it would have gone down. Also the reason he lost was because he thought Time would go for templar tech instead of colossus, and destiny began to make roaches, if he had made zerglings/infestors he probably could have held it off (assuming he micro'ed correctly).

Requizen Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 16719 Posts #6 On July 22 2011 00:36 MormonWithoutACause wrote:

Thing is... only greedy FE don't put at LEAST 2 cannons in the natural, same thing as the early observer AND can effectively kill the "tanking" zerglings. I can see how it punishes greedy play, but if you aren't playing a pro punishing a greedy play is a LOT easier with the roach/ling or speedling Allin. One of the interesting things is if it is scouted there is really no key way of tellling ( like for roach/ling the drones are stilll in gas) if the Zerg hides his infestor tech.



Well, the Zerglings aren't tanking. You want to throw down a bunch of Infested Terrans (leaving enough energy for a Fungal or two) that distract and draw fire, then run in with the Lings during the mayhem. The ITs are quite literally free, and can cut down Pylons and buildings quickly. Also, since they get "launched" from the Infestor, they get to pass FFs and walls with little to no problem. Well, the Zerglings aren't tanking. You want to throw down a bunch of Infested Terrans (leaving enough energy for a Fungal or two) that distract and draw fire, then run in with the Lings during the mayhem. The ITs are quite literally free, and can cut down Pylons and buildings quickly. Also, since they get "launched" from the Infestor, they get to pass FFs and walls with little to no problem. It's your boy Guzma!

BadWolf0 Profile Joined September 2010 United States 300 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-21 19:41:39 #7



10 - Drone (extractor trick)

11/10 - OL

11/10 - Pool

drone to 15

15 - Queen and 1 ling

go to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise

18 - Hatch

18 - OL

after OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his front

continue droning til

21 - 2nd queen

~23 OL, and continue droning



He seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows:

gas expenditure:

Lair (get 2 evos)

+1 melee/+1 carapace

speed

burrow? (I'm not sure about the timing but get as gas allows and in time for the push)

infestation pit (immediately start upgrade)

6 infestors.



As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL



- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great.



edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18.

edit2: AH FORGOT BURROW thx ppl You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:10 - Drone (extractor trick)11/10 - OL11/10 - Pooldrone to 1515 - Queen and 1 linggo to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise18 - Hatch18 - OLafter OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his frontcontinue droning til21 - 2nd queen~23 OL, and continue droningHe seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows:gas expenditure:Lair (get 2 evos)+1 melee/+1 carapacespeedburrow? (I'm not sure about the timing but get as gas allows and in time for the push)infestation pit (immediately start upgrade)6 infestors.As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great.edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18.edit2: AH FORGOT BURROW thx ppl All hail the Queen!!!

blackodd Profile Joined April 2010 Sweden 451 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-21 17:19:34 #8

Lomilar 11 pool 18 hatch + spanishiwa



And you got the opening down Think this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481 Lomilar 11 pool 18 hatch + spanishiwaAnd you got the opening down For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...

Nourek Profile Joined February 2011 Germany 177 Posts #9 On July 22 2011 02:09 BadWolf0 wrote:



gas expenditure:

Lair (get 2 evos)

+1 melee/+1 carapace

speed

infestation pit (immediately start upgrade)

6 infestors.



Don't forget burrow. Don't forget burrow.

crocodile Profile Joined February 2011 United States 615 Posts #10 On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote:

It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors

That's what he said. Colossus builds with observers are strong against this because they can see the Infestors. Read the thread.



Anyway, I think this build is strong because most Protosses these days are under the impression that Zergs cannot be aggressive with Ling/Infestor, that it's a defensive build designed to abuse Infestors to crush any big pushes and then counter for the win, so this should catch a lot of them off guard. That's what he said. Colossus builds with observers are strong against this because they can see the Infestors. Read the thread.Anyway, I think this build is strong because most Protosses these days are under the impression that Zergs cannot be aggressive with Ling/Infestor, that it's a defensive build designed to abuse Infestors to crush any big pushes and then counter for the win, so this should catch a lot of them off guard. Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny

BlasiuS Profile Blog Joined September 2007 United States 2140 Posts Last Edited: 2011-07-21 18:19:43 #11 On July 22 2011 02:09 BadWolf0 wrote:

You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:



10 - Drone (extractor trick)

11/10 - OL

11/10 - Pool

drone to 15

15 - Queen and 1 ling

go to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise

18 - Hatch

18 - OL

after OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his front

continue droning til

21 - 2nd queen

~23 OL, and continue droning



He seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows:

gas expenditure:

Lair (get 2 evos)

+1 melee/+1 carapace

speed

infestation pit (immediately start upgrade)

6 infestors.



As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL



- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great



edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18. You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:10 - Drone (extractor trick)11/10 - OL11/10 - Pooldrone to 1515 - Queen and 1 linggo to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise18 - Hatch18 - OLafter OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his frontcontinue droning til21 - 2nd queen~23 OL, and continue droningHe seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows:gas expenditure:Lair (get 2 evos)+1 melee/+1 carapacespeedinfestation pit (immediately start upgrade)6 infestors.As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that greatedit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18.



Pretty cool, I'll have to try this.



One thing about the upgrade order: you left out burrow, burrow is necessary to position your infestors correctly. When do you get burrow in this build?



I've tried to use ling/infestor in the past, but I always have trouble with any kind of attack that comes before my infestors hatch. What do I do in these situations? Do I make a bunch of spine crawlers? That only works on certain maps. And since I'm delaying ling speed to get a faster lair, it's hard to ling backstab. Pretty cool, I'll have to try this.One thing about the upgrade order: you left out burrow, burrow is necessary to position your infestors correctly. When do you get burrow in this build?I've tried to use ling/infestor in the past, but I always have trouble with any kind of attack that comes before my infestors hatch. What do I do in these situations? Do I make a bunch of spine crawlers? That only works on certain maps. And since I'm delaying ling speed to get a faster lair, it's hard to ling backstab. next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:

whoopingchow Profile Joined June 2011 United States 293 Posts #12

Part 2 (vs. Huk):

Part 3 (How this gets beaten/Q&A):

Part 1 (Introduction): http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-326-p1-friendday-wednesday-w-destiny-zvp-5396894 Part 2 (vs. Huk): http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-326-p2-friendday-wednesday-w-destiny-zvp-5396918 Part 3 (How this gets beaten/Q&A): http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-326-p2-friendday-wednesday-w-destiny-zvp-5396918

ShatterZer0 Profile Joined November 2010 United States 1841 Posts #13 Once Tyler's storm first gets popular Destiny will have to change his opener XD A time to live.

Vralaren Profile Joined June 2011 Sweden 129 Posts #14 Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it. Its like stealing candy from.... Someone u steal candy from! -LiquidSheth♥

Ryzu Profile Joined September 2010 United States 369 Posts #15 On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote:

Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.





You pretty much got it. Earlier lings for defense, and earlier queen, and the build pulls relatively even with 15h economically by the 6 minute mark due to the earlier queen and quicker injects. You pretty much got it. Earlier lings for defense, and earlier queen, and the build pulls relatively even with 15h economically by the 6 minute mark due to the earlier queen and quicker injects.

obsid Profile Joined November 2008 United States 389 Posts #16 @Vralaren

Actualy the 11 pool/18 hatch is one of the most economic openings (even more then 14/15 pool, but less then 15 hatch). The reason is the early queen gives you extra larva for drones, and the early hatch gives you extra saturation just as you run out of mineral patches in your main (for the # of drones you have) 14/15 pool is a bit later on the hatchery usualy.



The key is not to get too many lings (1-2 sets at most), or you will be behind in econ. Also with an 11 pool you can get lings early enough to get a pair of lings inside a toss base before the zel is up to block (depending on map/positions). Then you can run around and see whatever you want till he gets a sentry/stalker out.

TechnoSchaman Profile Joined October 2010 United States 156 Posts #17 On July 22 2011 04:03 ShatterZer0 wrote:

Once Tyler's storm first gets popular Destiny will have to change his opener XD

Ive done Tyler's build against this, the zergs ive faced see the lack of units and do ling attacks

forcing you to make more units, delaying the push, and delaying the tech, Even when you do get out, speed lings in any sort of good position nullify any offensive forcefields and therefor cause you to basically storm on top of your army, that combined with the infestors fungal makes this a hard counter to Tyler's build

At least in my experience, and ive played 12 PvZ's today and won.......1...... against a failed roach rush...... this build is terrifying Ive done Tyler's build against this, the zergs ive faced see the lack of units and do ling attacksforcing you to make more units, delaying the push, and delaying the tech, Even when you do get out, speed lings in any sort of good position nullify any offensive forcefields and therefor cause you to basically storm on top of your army, that combined with the infestors fungal makes this a hard counter to Tyler's buildAt least in my experience, and ive played 12 PvZ's today and won.......1...... against a failed roach rush...... this build is terrifying

greater_kaq Profile Joined July 2011 Vietnam 23 Posts #18 On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote:

Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.



He stated it in his stream. The reason is it gives same eco because of early queen, and it doesnt auto lose to stupid cannon rush. He stated it in his stream. The reason is it gives same eco because of early queen, and it doesnt auto lose to stupid cannon rush.

Pillage Profile Joined July 2011 United States 804 Posts #19 This looks just nasty. But then again, Steven is a beast and I'm bad lol. Still it seems that all of these high dps units do very well against protoss. With the growing popularity of blink stalker play this seems like an awesome build to take the fight to the protoss, instead of just waiting to see if he might attack. Does it seem feasible to have the lings have 2 attack and one armor for the push? That would be very hard for toss to deal with if this was obtainable in a timely manner. "Power has no limits." -Tiberius

Jaxtyk Profile Blog Joined December 2009 United States 598 Posts #20 This is a solid build for people who are good at microing with infestors. Which is not a easy task. To tell the truth....I could beat anyone in the world.

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