DinoMight Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 3331 Posts Last Edited: 2016-03-03 14:25:33 #1



We've had some good ideas in the past and Blizzard has implemented some of them. I'd like to discuss an idea for the tank that I had and that some other people on the forum thought of separately as well.



Idea: Medivacs can not use Ignite Afterburners while carrying external cargo (sieged tanks, thors).



Why is this a good idea?



TvT: this will prevent the massive drop spamming that we're seeing. Players will still be able to re-position Tanks in Siege Mode, but won't be able to repeatedly doom drop each other. Vikings will shut down this type of play more easily and positioning will regain some importance. Turrets will also be better against those medivacs because the dropping player can't just boost over them. So they'll either need to send in the bio first, boost and gun down the turrets, or they'll need to find another route.



TvZ: this change still allows Terrans to use tank pickups to dodge Ravager attacks. The Ravager shot is predictable enough that good Terrans should not get hit by it if they're paying attention.



TvP: it's a minor nerf but in the matchup where the Tank is the least important anyway.





Side effect: Thor drops receive a slight nerf, but this will impact a very low percentage of games. I included thors because it makes the game more intuitive for low level players. Anything carried OUTSIDE the medivac disables boost.



Please give me your feedback on this idea! Haven't heard any arguments against it but I know a lot of you are pretty smart and will think of stuff.



Hopefully we can think of a good solution to the Tank that Blizz can implement.





*EDIT - added a poll to the main thread:



Poll: Is diabling boost while carrying external cargo too complicated?



(Vote): Yes, I don't think new players will understand

(Vote): No, it seems intuitive





Hey guys,We've had some good ideas in the past and Blizzard has implemented some of them. I'd like to discuss an idea for the tank that I had and that some other people on the forum thought of separately as well.Why is this a good idea?TvT: this will prevent the massive drop spamming that we're seeing. Players will still be able to re-position Tanks in Siege Mode, but won't be able to repeatedly doom drop each other. Vikings will shut down this type of play more easily and positioning will regain some importance. Turrets will also be better against those medivacs because the dropping player can't just boost over them. So they'll either need to send in the bio first, boost and gun down the turrets, or they'll need to find another route.TvZ: this change still allows Terrans to use tank pickups to dodge Ravager attacks. The Ravager shot is predictable enough that good Terrans should not get hit by it if they're paying attention.TvP: it's a minor nerf but in the matchup where the Tank is the least important anyway.Side effect: Thor drops receive a slight nerf, but this will impact a very low percentage of games. I included thors because it makes the game more intuitive for low level players. Anything carried OUTSIDE the medivac disables boost.Please give me your feedback on this idea! Haven't heard any arguments against it but I know a lot of you are pretty smart and will think of stuff.Hopefully we can think of a good solution to the Tank that Blizz can implement.*EDIT - added a poll to the main thread: "Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI

Dangermousecatdog Profile Joined December 2010 United Kingdom 6250 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-26 23:16:24 #2 Too many exceptions on units in a game that already have unclear exceptions to their interaction. I don't see a problem with afterburning medivacs, which is something you have neglected to describe. Instead you hint at a percieved problem but never fully bother describing it.

LongShot27 Profile Joined May 2013 United States 2084 Posts #3 And when you get the medivac boost upgrade, it removes the restriction. It literally only makes the game better. If all men were created equal there would be no reason to declare it.

imre Profile Blog Joined November 2011 France 9125 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 00:16:21 #4 On February 27 2016 08:33 LongShot27 wrote:

And when you get the medivac boost upgrade, it removes the restriction. It literally only makes the game better.



nah, getting rid of the boost would make the tankivac unusable in TvT vs stim/vikings which would be good. I'd dislike if it was possible to get it back, it's a game breaking advantage in TvT. nah, getting rid of the boost would make the tankivac unusable in TvT vs stim/vikings which would be good. I'd dislike if it was possible to get it back, it's a game breaking advantage in TvT. Zest fanboy.

Xenotolerance Profile Joined November 2012 United States 464 Posts #5 I have some reservations about this idea, but mostly I just don't think it's as good as a straight damage buff. As in I'd rather see tanks that vaporize ravagers so there's no need to be picked up, but that the zerg can kill efficiently with good splits and zerglings drawing fire, etc. It should create some really sick counterplay between tank positioning and terran army control vs ravager+zerg army control, and I'd rather see that with simple mechanics than add special interactions with cargo and speed and all that. It's not worth it imo. www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance

Gwavajuice Profile Joined June 2014 France 1810 Posts #6 I thought of this too, I think even posted about it in last community feedback, then I thought about TvZ and I think the boost is needed there cause you often need to get the hell out of here just after picking up.



But I would love to see this tested by people with good micro. Dear INno and all the former STX boys.

A.Alm Profile Joined September 2012 Sweden 413 Posts #7 Nice idea, i like it.

Cyanocyst Profile Joined October 2010 2222 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 01:03:25 #8 While it is slightly convoluted, as not many other abilites have exceptions like this. Though this idea might be exactly what is needed. Nerfs tankivacs without the removal.



Also i like this because it's very intuitive, logical and gives a visual reminder as to which medivacs can and cant be boosted.



*See how you have that big singular unit hanging from your medivcas, you can't boost them with such heavy cargo.* || Fruit Dealer | Leenock | Yughio | Coca | Sniper | True | Solar | Dark |

Penev Profile Joined October 2012 27625 Posts #9 Ye, I proposed this several times in the LR threads; It kinda make sense cuz of the strains on the connection points realism wise if people care about that. @Cyanocyst: It's not convoluted imo, internal cargo: boost, external cargo: no boost. I non zerg winner, could it be?

redloser Profile Joined May 2011 Korea (South) 1712 Posts #10 I thought of this idea as well. I mean, medivacs are carrying thors and siege tanks beneath them since they are so huge, so it makes sense, doesn't it?

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19832 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 01:20:09 #11 It literally only makes the game better.



The interactions directly make the game worse in some ways and having a tank that's strong because of this (being able to be repositioned super easily) makes it impossible to make it stronger in other ways (like having better combat stats) and still be balanced



The interactions directly make the game worse in some ways and having a tank that's strong because of this (being able to be repositioned super easily) makes it impossible to make it stronger in other ways (like having better combat stats) and still be balanced I thought of this idea as well. I mean, medivacs are carrying thors and siege tanks beneath them since they are so huge, so it makes sense, doesn't it?



Being able to boost with 2 unsieged tanks vs not boost with 1 sieged tank is kinda odd. Being able to boost with 2 unsieged tanks vs not boost with 1 sieged tank is kinda odd. "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

AaBbCc Profile Joined February 2016 New Zealand 106 Posts #12 I like the idea, cleaver thinking but I think I would prefer the option of delaying the shot from a dropped tank/damage nerf though. Life is a meaningless interruption to an otherwise peaceful non-existence.

Penev Profile Joined October 2012 27625 Posts #13 On February 27 2016 10:19 Cyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

It literally only makes the game better.



The interactions directly make the game worse in some ways and having a tank that's strong because of this (being able to be repositioned super easily) makes it impossible to make it stronger in other ways (like having better combat stats) and still be balanced



Show nested quote +

I thought of this idea as well. I mean, medivacs are carrying thors and siege tanks beneath them since they are so huge, so it makes sense, doesn't it?



Being able to boost with 2 unsieged tanks vs not boost with 1 sieged tank is kinda odd. The interactions directly make the game worse in some ways and having a tank that's strong because of this (being able to be repositioned super easily) makes it impossible to make it stronger in other ways (like having better combat stats) and still be balancedBeing able to boost with 2 unsieged tanks vs not boost with 1 sieged tank is kinda odd.

It would break the connection would be the logic. It's not the weight (directly) it's the strain.



But maybe a longer delay on the attack is better, dunno, I'm torn on the tankivac. A part of me wants it gone completely and another liked some high level games with it.. It would break the connection would be the logic. It's not the weight (directly) it's the strain.But maybe a longer delay on the attack is better, dunno, I'm torn on the tankivac. A part of me wants it gone completely and another liked some high level games with it.. I non zerg winner, could it be?

sc2chronic Profile Joined May 2012 United States 777 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 01:30:30 #14 as a spectator i want to keep tankivacs in but as a player i feel they are def a little imba. while i like your idea, it doesnt seem enough of a nerf to make me want to keep it in the game. terrible, terrible, damage

Grizvok Profile Joined August 2014 United States 711 Posts #15 Calling them imba is just wrong. They aren't being removed because the mechanic is overpowered it is because it basically destroys a single match up which is why they are trying to find a way to fix TvT. If it was obviously as imbalanced as you seem to think (wrongly) they would immediately do something and instead they wait out to test new things.



As a Masters Terran player I do want them removed because I cannot stand TvT. It was a very fun MU in HotS and an absolute joy to play but now it's gimmicky and just bullshit. It should be about positional play and the marine/tank siege unsiege dance was great.

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13347 Posts #16 I remember dreams thor micro in tvz and disagree with this.

Thors are underused as they are and without the boost their only use will be severely limited. INnoVation

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19832 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 02:15:43 #17 It's not just about TvT but about the unit identify. You would probably be very upset if they nerfed battlecruiser damage and HP, potentially removed yamato cannon etc because they wanted to make them fly faster - there's so much more that you can do with a siege tank that doesn't have to have very limited power because of that insane mobility. "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

Grizvok Profile Joined August 2014 United States 711 Posts #18 On February 27 2016 11:14 Cyro wrote:

It's not just about TvT but about the unit identify. You would probably be very upset if they nerfed battlecruiser damage and HP, potentially removed yamato cannon etc because they wanted to make them fly faster - there's so much more that you can do with a siege tank that doesn't have to have very limited power because of that insane mobility.



I wouldn't care about a cattlebruiser change...nobody uses them. I wouldn't care about a cattlebruiser change...nobody uses them.

Cyro Profile Blog Joined June 2011 United Kingdom 19832 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 04:18:21 #19 On February 27 2016 12:00 Grizvok wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 27 2016 11:14 Cyro wrote:

It's not just about TvT but about the unit identify. You would probably be very upset if they nerfed battlecruiser damage and HP, potentially removed yamato cannon etc because they wanted to make them fly faster - there's so much more that you can do with a siege tank that doesn't have to have very limited power because of that insane mobility.



I wouldn't care about a cattlebruiser change...nobody uses them. I wouldn't care about a cattlebruiser change...nobody uses them.



They're used only occasionally @ pro level, but buffing the damage or ability to deal with things like ultralisks is better than making them faster IMO.



Same for tanks. Wouldn't you rather have a damage buff and bonus damage to primary targets / massive units / etc rather than the ability to pick up and drop while sieged? If you can only have one or the other.



Few people want "bad tanks" - there has been a lot of community pressure for tank buffs since before HOTS went live when they started to be overshadowed by other units - but leaving them relatively weak in combat so that they can be balanced when medivacs can lift them is controversial They're used only occasionally @ pro level, but buffing the damage or ability to deal with things like ultralisks is better than making them faster IMO.Same for tanks. Wouldn't you rather have a damage buff and bonus damage to primary targets / massive units / etc rather than the ability to pick up and drop while sieged? If you can only have one or the other.Few people want "bad tanks" - there has been a lot of community pressure for tank buffs since before HOTS went live when they started to be overshadowed by other units - but leaving them relatively weak in combat so that they can be balanced when medivacs can lift them is controversial "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88

seemsgood Profile Joined January 2016 5351 Posts Last Edited: 2016-02-27 09:39:21 #20 I like that ideal.

Tankivac ruined position advantage because you can boost your medivac to quickly get into more farvor position and break enemy defense even with lower supply army.

Remove boost mean it will give players who had position advantage more time to decide a counter play,defense position .

But there is still one problem:Siege tank has real strength and weakness ,siege tank and OLD IMMORTAL are the best designed units IMO.Then they add the ablity to pick it up which completely remove it's weakness and i absolutely hate it.

I understand why they did that because they created RAVAGER.A unit design to break "entrenched position"... both lore and design wise.

They created it to counter tank and also give terran players a counterplay option by pick siege tank up.

Right now Kr progamers dislike buffed tank because it wasn't enough to justify pick up ability was removed.I strongly disagree any further damage buff because RAVAGER was suppose to counter tank !SO If you can't pick it up you can't buff it's damage to the point siege tank counter it's counter ! I don't want a second parasitic bomb situation!

So how we solve those bullshit ?

Beside OP solution i will add my suggestion: Medivac + tank = advance siege tech ( an upgrade of raynor in co-op).

- Add medivac ability to decrease siege time.

-Siege tank must unsiege in order to get pick off by medivac and medivac must stick with siege tank when it's unsieging then it can fly again with tank.(add an animation while that process happen would be good)

-Medivac must stick with siege tank when drop it off and siege again then it can fly again.

-Ground units can attack medivac when it's picking siege tank.



My thought about this solution is:

-It keep siege tank's weakness because it must take time to unsiege and fly away with slow ass speed leave a large window for enemy to punish you.Right now you just pick it up and run away with speed of light while enemy cry out loud.

-It force more positional play in TvZ because no way you can dodge bile when you must take time to siege when drop off and take time to unsiege to pick up.NO way.You can only pick it up to prevent getting kill.(Need to test more between boosted siege time and bile drop time).

- TvT:..... right now if you drop your tank first you have a huge advantage but the point IS back in HOTS,mech vs mech or mech vs bio, what is the different when you are the one who click siege first ? You still get the first shot right ? So in direct engage ,TvT in LOTV and HOTS basically the same .

The different is... back in HOTS you have more advantage when you are in position.That why it was like chess battle.You must decide when to unsiege and move or when to get in position again.Both players can play like TvT in LOTV but they won't because play slowly but steady is more favor than move into enemy line and siege up without any tactics in head.

Buff siege tank damage and remove tankivac boost is the good solution to give advantage for the players who in good position not the one who stimmed and roll in.

Don't get me wrong even with tankivac ,no fucking way bio has advanatage when direct fight vs mech army...

The reasons come from economic change,tankivac scale better vs bio,mech need alot of time to figure out, bio drop is harder to defend because enemy can move their tank to out range your tank and force you produce medivac.

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