michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[music]

Today, Rudy Giuliani was hired to defend President Trump against the special counsel’s Russia investigation. So how is it that Giuliani helped get Trump entangled in another investigation involving Ukraine? My colleague, Ken Vogel, investigates. It’s Thursday, October 3. Ken, I want to start by reading from some of your reporting back in May.

ken vogel

Please, by all means.

michael barbaro

You wrote a story that Rudy Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, was planning a trip to Ukraine in order to look into the Bidens.

ken vogel

Seems prescient.

michael barbaro

This is the quote that Giuliani gives you when you ask him about this work he’s doing in Ukraine. He says, “There’s nothing illegal about it. Somebody could say it’s improper. And this isn’t foreign policy. I’m asking them to do an investigation that they’re doing already, and that other people are telling them to stop. And I’m going to give them reasons why they shouldn’t stop, because that information will be very, very helpful to my client, and may turn out to be helpful to my government.” And then you write, “Mr. Giuliani’s involvement raises questions about whether Mr. Trump is endorsing an effort to push a foreign government to proceed with a case that could hurt a political opponent at home.”

ken vogel

Yeah.

michael barbaro

So you had that story all the way back in May, so why is it only now that these revelations are prompting an impeachment inquiry?

ken vogel

Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I think we understood a lot of the puzzle back then, but what we didn’t understand was the degree to which the president himself was personally involved in pushing the Ukrainians to investigate and provide dirt on the president’s political rivals. Some of that stuff had yet to happen when we first addressed this, and then only more recently have we learned about the vivid details of his involvement, and those have been really eyebrow raising.

michael barbaro

I wonder if you could just start at the beginning of this story.

ken vogel

Well, you have to go back and look at Rudy Giuliani. He, of course, was the mayor of New York City, including during the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) I’m here on behalf of a very grateful and very admiring city in saying how proud we are of the innocent men and women who were going about their lives, seeking they’re part of the American dream, when their lives were cut short by the act of cowardly terrorists.

ken vogel

And his leadership during that horrible time earned him the reputation of America’s mayor.

archived recording For every single person touched by this unthinkable tragedy, there’s been one man who, above all others, has been the beacon holding this city together, and leading it forward. Rudy, Rudy. He’s the mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani.

ken vogel

And when he leaves office at the end of 2001, he’s got this great reputation, and he’s really riding high. He’s the mayor who helped New York recover from 9/11.

michael barbaro

Right.

ken vogel

And that made him a really marketable commodity as a consultant consulting on security issues. But he always kind of craved the political fight.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) When I was mayor, there was a sign on my desk. It read, “I’m responsible.” That’s the kind of common sense accountability we need today. That’s the kind of leadership we need in Washington, and that’s why I’m running for president.

ken vogel

And so he takes a break from this business to run for president in 2008.

archived recording Leaders, assassinated; democracy, attacked; and Osama bin Laden still making threats. In a world where the next crisis is a moment away, America needs a leader who’s ready. archived recording (rudy giuliani) I’m Rudy Giuliani, and I approve this message.

ken vogel

And that didn’t go so well.

archived recording (jon stewart) Rudolph Giuliani has dropped out. America’s mayor, John Q. 9/11, it’s over. For months, Giuliani was the frontrunner for the Republican nomination, and then people started voting.

ken vogel

And he returns to the business and starts to do a lot of business in Ukraine.

michael barbaro

And Ken, why Ukraine?

ken vogel

Ukraine is the place that has drawn a lot of Western consultants and politicians and big names. It’s a place where there’s a lot of money to be made from a handful of oligarchs and wealthy interests that are looking for legitimacy that they believe that they can get from prominent Americans. And there was no more prominent American than Rudy Giuliani at that time period.

michael barbaro

And what are Ukraine’s security needs when it comes to someone like Rudy Giuliani?

ken vogel

Ukraine has a lot of needs in this space. The most pressing concern for Ukraine is its neighbor looming to the east, Russia.

archived recording Overnight, dozens of armed pro-Russian forces seized control of the international airport and military airport in Ukraine’s Crimea region, a day after pro-Russian gunmen took over government buildings in the city and raised the Russian flag.

ken vogel

And so what Ukrainians are looking for and what Rudy Giuliani has in spades is both a reputation for being tough on crime, tough on terrorism, and also being able to represent sort of a de facto endorsement from the United States of America, which is something that is coveted and so important in Ukraine, to have support from the U.S. in their effort to stave off Russian aggression.

michael barbaro

And what is Giuliani’s relationship with Donald Trump around this period?

ken vogel

So the relationship goes back more than two decades to when Trump was actively developing real estate in New York, and Giuliani was the mayor, of course. And then they kind of overlapped in social circles and a little bit in political circles, and then their relationship takes a new turn in 2016 when a lot of the more establishment Republicans are sort of keeping their distance from Trump, who is still seen as kind of a toxic figure. Even as he’s closing in on the Republican nomination, Giuliani nonetheless decides to endorse him.

archived recording That’s what I don’t understand. Why don’t you say, I’m Rudy Giuliani. I mean a lot in New York politics. I endorse Donald Trump. archived recording (rudy giuliani) OK, I’m Rudy Giuliani. I mean a lot in New York politics. I endorse Donald Trump, but I’m not part of the campaign. archived recording I don’t understand. What does that last part mean?

ken vogel

It’s kind of a lukewarm endorsement at first, but he’s really one of the early establishment Republicans to get behind Trump, and it pays off. When Trump is elected, Giuliani is seen as a power broker. And for a time, his name was even bandied about as a potential nominee for Secretary of State. Now, ironically, one of the reasons why he was passed over for some of these positions was that his foreign consulting work was seen as something of a liability. And so that was seen as something of a letdown, but nonetheless, he stayed an important figure in Trump world. And when the Mueller investigation started, Rudy was eventually tapped as one of President Trump’s lead defense attorneys in that.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) There’s no reason for this investigation. There never was a good reason for it in the first place. This is just plain wrong.

michael barbaro

And is Giuliani still doing business with these overseas security clients while he’s representing the president as a lawyer?

ken vogel

Yes. And in fact, not only is he juggling both roles, but it’s arguable that his role as the president’s attorney makes him more marketable and more coveted as a consultant by some of these foreign interests who see having someone who is close to the U.S. president on their payroll as something that could be of enormous benefit.

michael barbaro

And how does Giuliani navigate that? As you say, it’s kind of fraught, but it’s also an opportunity.

ken vogel

Well, he does it in an interesting way, which is that he continues traveling the world, meeting with prospective clients, even as he is representing the president. And there are cases, including in Ukraine, where these two roles do seem to intersect.

michael barbaro

How so?

ken vogel

Well, you have to back up and look at Trump’s obsession with Ukraine.

archived recording (donald trump) Plus the Democrats colluded on the Ukraine. So they colluded.

ken vogel

Trump has had these theories going back to 2016 that it was actually the Ukrainians who meddled in the 2016 election.

michael barbaro

Not Russia.

ken vogel

Right. And they meddled in it event to help Hillary Clinton and to hurt him. And it turns out Rudy Giuliani was hearing some of this same stuff.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) I got information about three or four months ago that a lot of the explanation for how this whole phony investigation started will be in the Ukraine, that there were a group of people in the Ukraine that were working to help Hillary Clinton.

ken vogel

And so he became the perfect person to investigate these theories and use them and develop them to try to undermine the Mueller investigation.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) And you know what’s going to happen in the next two to three months? We’re going to find out that there is a crime that was committed. It’s called conspiracy with Ukrainians. Total, total counterintelligence scam job.

michael barbaro

And Ken, is there any validity to the Trump theory that has been picked up by Giuliani that Ukraine was trying to hurt Trump in 2016 and trying to assist the Democrats?

ken vogel

So it’s not really a simple answer to that question, Michael. There are certainly people in Ukraine who believe that there were Ukrainian officials who were too supportive of Hillary Clinton, and that some of those officials may have acted improperly in releasing this information about Paul Manafort that forced his resignation from the Trump campaign. Now, that said, there are also some theories that Trump and Giuliani have floated that are completely bogus and have been definitively debunked, and those include the idea that it was Ukraine and not Russia that actually did the hacking of the Democratic National Committee, and that Ukraine then sought to frame Russia and make it appear as if Russia was working with the Trump campaign. We know from the Mueller investigation that all of that is completely wrong.

michael barbaro

So what happens with this Giuliani investigation in Ukraine that’s been blessed by the president?

ken vogel

So Giuliani is reaching out to people in Ukraine. He has associates who are over there. He’s exploring some of this stuff. And he says that in the process of poking around, he comes across this other theory that might be equally beneficial to President Trump, and that involves the Bidens and their activity in Ukraine.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) Joe Biden was appointed the point man for Ukraine. Two to three weeks later, his son, Hunter, was appointed to a position on the most corrupt agency or the most corrupt business in Ukraine.

ken vogel

The theory is that Joe Biden, as vice president, in his capacity as the Obama administration’s point person on Ukraine pushed the Ukrainian government to get rid of a prosecutor who was widely regarded as corrupt, not because this prosecutor was corrupt and it was in the interests of the United States to help the Ukraine root out corruption, but rather because this prosecutor represented a threat to an oligarch who owned a gas company that was paying Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, as a board member.

michael barbaro

But is there anything to this Biden theory that Giuliani is cultivating?

ken vogel

There is no evidence that Joe Biden pushed the Ukrainian government to fire this prosecutor because it would help his son or the company that was paying him as a board member. Now, that said, with everything in Ukraine, it’s not quite that simple. In fact, the people around that company were relieved when that prosecutor was fired, and that’s because they thought he was holding open the possibility of investigations of this company and the oligarch in order to be able to solicit a bribe to get him to stand down, which is, unfortunately, kind of the way that the Ukrainian prosecutorial and judicial system work.

michael barbaro

So what does Giuliani do next to try to actually prove these grand theories based on what feel like these teeny tiny crumbs of fact and suspicion?

ken vogel

So Rudy is working, including with Ukrainians, to try to gain traction on some of this stuff. He’s working with associates of his, and they are gathering records. They get him on the phone with some prosecutors. And then finally, in January of this year, Rudy gets a meeting in New York with the top Ukrainian prosecutor, a guy by the name of Yuri Lutsenko. And we understand that this meeting transpired over the course of a day or two with multiple sessions, many hours long. And Rudy is so enthusiastic about the information that Lutsenko is providing to him, that at one point, Rudy actually picks up the phone and calls Trump and starts to brief him on what he’s hearing.

michael barbaro

Why? What is so exciting?

ken vogel

Well, Rudy thinks he’s found a powerful Ukrainian partner to pursue these matters. And when I say pursue the matters, I don’t just mean to provide him dirt, I mean actually moving forward with investigations in Ukraine into some of these matters. And that’s quite notable, because in 2017, this same prosecutor, Yuri Lutsenko, had actually closed investigations into the oligarch who owned the gas company that employed Hunter Biden and into the company itself, and so it’s quite a notable turnabout that this prosecutor is now willing to pursue these investigations that could be of huge benefit to President Trump.

michael barbaro

Well, help me understand why a Ukrainian prosecutor would ever want to do this kind of favor for Giuliani and for President Trump.

ken vogel

Well, there are a couple of theories on that, both of them have at their heart Ukrainian politics that were unfolding at the time. The president was running for re-election. This is the president who appointed Lutsenko, was seen as a patron of Lutsenko, and he was not doing very well. And so some of his allies thought that if he were able to throw President Trump a bone, give President Trump something that he wanted, President Trump might reciprocate and signal some support for the Ukrainian president. But secondarily, if the president ended up losing, Lutsenko was looking for some powerful allies in the United States who might be willing to go to bat for him with the new president and say, hey, this guy, this prosecutor, Lutsenko, is good. You should keep him. And so there is some thinking that that was motivating Lutsenko to get into bed with Rudy.

michael barbaro

So the understanding after Giuliani meets with Lutsenko is that Lutsenko would be pushing the investigations inside Ukraine that President Trump wants, and that President Trump would help Lutsenko’s boss get re-elected president of Ukraine. So there would be something in it for everybody.

ken vogel

That’s right.

michael barbaro

So what ends up actually happening?

ken vogel

Well, Lutsenko goes back to Ukraine, and in fact, he does take some steps towards pushing forward these investigations, and issues what is known in Ukraine as a notice of suspicion to the oligarch who own the gas company on whose board Hunter Biden sat, and it was enough to make Rudy feel pretty good about what was going on.

michael barbaro

And what about the other side of the understanding, that Trump would help Lutsenko’s boss?

ken vogel

Yeah, that didn’t really pan out so much as some of the allies of the president had hoped. They never really got the full-throated support of President Trump that they thought that they might get if they gave Trump and Rudy Giuliani what they were seeking in terms of pushing forward these matters that Trump and Giuliani wanted investigated. And Lutsenko’s boss, the president, goes down to defeat in a landslide.

michael barbaro

What does that election result mean for Trump and for Giuliani?

ken vogel

Well, it’s bad news for them, because they had developed this relationship with this prosecutor who was going to pursue the matters that they wanted to see pursued, and suddenly, this prosecutor’s job is in jeopardy. In fact, on election night, the president-elect signals that he wants to get rid of Lutsenko. So Giuliani and Trump are left scratching their heads, trying to figure out is there a way for them to continue this effort, and they ultimately end up taking a series of steps that lead us to where we are today.

michael barbaro

Which is an impeachment inquiry.

ken vogel

Yeah.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back. Ken, what did Giuliani and Trump do in the face of this pretty big setback in their efforts to get Ukraine to conduct these investigations that they want?

ken vogel

Well, they start trying to make it pretty clear to the new president, Zelensky, and to the people around him that this is something that they feel pretty strongly about and want to see continue. And this starts, our reporting suggests, on election night.

archived recording [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] We did it, together.

ken vogel

On the night that Zelensky is triumphant in this huge landslide, he gets a call from President Trump. It’s the typical congratulatory call. But then at the end of the call, Trump expresses his commitment to work together with President-elect Zelensky and the Ukrainian people to implement reforms that strengthen democracy, increase prosperity and root out corruption. And that’s a direct quote, by the way, from the White House readout of the call.

michael barbaro

What do you make of that last line?

ken vogel

Yeah, why that is significant is because for people who have been following this on both sides of the Atlantic, they know that when the Trump folks say corruption, what they really mean is that they want an investigation of the Bidens, and Hunter Biden’s work for this gas company, and also this idea that Ukrainians acted improperly to meddle in the 2016 election on behalf of Hillary Clinton. So even just that word, “corruption,” it is now widely understood when raised by the Trump folks to mean, we want these investigations.

michael barbaro

And do you think Zelensky would have understood that to mean what you just described?

ken vogel

I think he would, because his people have been following this, and they were in communication with Americans who were telling them that that’s what this means.

michael barbaro

And what’s your sense of what this new Ukrainian president, Zelensky, is making of Trump and how open he is to helping the president?

ken vogel

I think that once it becomes clear what Trump wants, it becomes clear to the people around Zelensky that he’s in a horrible position, really a no-win position. He knows that he needs to keep in the good graces of the United States president because Ukraine is so dependent on assistance, both military assistance and other forms of assistance and support from the United States, and if he refuses and rebuffs President Trump or Rudy Giuliani on what they want in terms of these investigations, he knows it will risk alienating the U.S. president and potentially undermining that relationship. On the other hand, he knows that if he gives the president and Rudy Giuliani what they want, it would risk alienating Democrats, and most notably, Joe Biden, who could be the next president of the United States, and that would be a real bad position for Zelensky as well if the new president of the United States is one that he has already poisoned the well with.

michael barbaro

So this is a very unenviable position for a brand new president of Ukraine to be in.

ken vogel

Yes, it is.

michael barbaro

So what does Zelensky end up doing.

ken vogel

Zelensky basically tries to avoid committing either way. He still has yet to appoint a prosecutor general to replace Lutsenko, who he has indicated that he wants to get rid of. But he says, well, you’ll just have to wait until we have this new prosecutor who’s going to come in and assess these things, and then they’ll make the decisions. Well, that does not satisfy Rudy, who wants some kind of signal sooner.

archived recording Rudy Giuliani is going on a fishing trip, as in an information gathering mission in Ukraine.

ken vogel

And so what Rudy does, within three weeks of Zelensky’s election, he plans a trip to Ukraine, where he intends to try to meet with the Zelensky to push for Zelensky to make some show of support for these investigations.

archived recording The president’s personal attorney heading to Eastern Europe to encourage a foreign government to press ahead with an investigation or two that may very well damage a political rival of his clients. So let’s ask the man himself, the president’s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. Mayor, great to have you with us tonight. archived recording (rudy giuliani) How are you, Shannon? archived recording I’m good.

michael barbaro

Also that brings us to your reporting back in May —

archived recording I want to read you something from The New York Times. Won’t surprise you that they’re not fans of this idea. archived recording (rudy giuliani) Oh my gosh.

michael barbaro

— that Giuliani is about to take this trip to Ukraine to push these investigations.

ken vogel

That’s right.

archived recording (rudy giuliani) I mean, the reality is that I’m not — I wasn’t going there to encourage them to start an investigation. They have an investigation. They have an investigation of how Ukrainians helped the D.N.C. and Hillary operatives to get, in some cases, false, dirty information about the Trump campaign.

michael barbaro

And what happens with that trip?

ken vogel

Well, after we reported, it generates quite a backlash.

archived recording The Biden campaign claims there was no wrongdoing, and Democrats pounce —

ken vogel

Primarily from Democrats, but also from foreign policy experts across the spectrum.

archived recording It’s an investigation designed to effect one of the candidates they fear the most, Joe Biden. And I think it’s reprehensible. OK — archived recording (rudy giuliani) So I’ve decided, Sharon, I’m not going to go.

ken vogel

And Rudy Giuliani cancels it.

michael barbaro

So in canceling the trip, it feels like Giuliani understands at this point that the path he’s on is problematic.

ken vogel

Yes and no. I think he’s conceding that it’s controversial. But what we now know is that in the weeks and months after that canceled trip, both Giuliani and Trump took several steps to continue to pressure the Ukrainians to take up these investigations. First, in mid-July, we have Trump ordering the delay and review of some assistance to the Ukrainians, $391 million worth. And then about a week later, we now know about this July 25 call between Trump and Zelensky, where Trump starts off by talking about all that the U.S. does for Ukraine, and then leads into pushing Zelensky to work with both Rudy Giuliani and the attorney general, Bill Barr, on these investigations, including the ones into the Bidens and their activity in Ukraine. And he even goes further, just so there’s no confusion, and says, and he’s upset because you had this prosecutor who was very good who was shut down, and that’s really unfair, and he says a lot of people are talking about that. Well, that prosecutor he’s talking about is none other than Yuri Lutsenko, the prosecutor with whom Rudy Giuliani had been working to push these investigations.

michael barbaro

So what Trump seems to be saying in reference to Lutsenko is, you should really keep that guy. He’s pretty great. Why are you being tough on him?

ken vogel

Right, and at that point, Lutsenko had not yet been replaced, although Zelensky had indicated that he intended to replace him.

michael barbaro

It feels like so much of your reporting led right up to that phone call. Back in May, you understood Giuliani was doing this. You understood Trump seemed to be supporting it. And then you have this call.

ken vogel

Yeah. And we felt like we understood all the pieces here, and we felt like we understood what was being communicated. But we thought that it was being communicated with a lot of winks and nods in the traditional language of diplomacy. So it was quite stark to see it laid out, by President Trump, no less, in such very specific detail in this July 25 phone call. It was, to some degree, mind-boggling, because both Trump and the Zelensky are sort of familiar with all the issues in play here. So much of this stuff could be done more effectively and more subtly without actually coming out and making these arguments. And I couldn’t help but think as I read through this reconstructed transcript that so much of what Trump was saying, I’ve heard Rudy Giuliani say in almost these exact terms. The way that Trump’s language evoked Rudy’s was quite striking to me.

michael barbaro

What do you make of that dynamic between these two?

ken vogel

Well, it’s sort of ironic that Rudy was brought on as Trump’s defense attorney, to help him navigate his way through the Mueller investigation, and instead, he quickly branched out and became sort of an opposition researcher, and campaign attack dog, and even a quasi-diplomat engaging with foreign governments in a way that has led Trump right into the next crisis of his presidency, in many ways, potentially worst crisis, that is now at the center of the impeachment inquiry.

[music]

michael barbaro

I wonder, Ken, if you think that Giuliani could have pursued all of these theories, could have been digging around Ukraine just the way he was in a way that would never have led us down this path of an impeachment inquiry.

ken vogel

Possibly. I think that he certainly could have pursued some of these things, making it clear that he was acting in his personal capacity as the president’s personal attorney, and not acting on behalf of the president himself or the administration. That probably would have still raised hackles back in Washington. I think we probably still would have had Congressional investigations. But the minute that President Trump takes up this case personally and uses the power of the presidency to try to pressure an allying government to do his political bidding at a time when this government is facing a very real and existential threat from Russia, our common foe, is when we crossed the rubicon and got to the point where there are legitimate questions about abuse of office that undergird this impeachment inquiry.

michael barbaro

Thank you, Ken.

ken vogel

Thank you.

michael barbaro

On Wednesday, during a visit to Italy, secretary of state Mike Pompeo acknowledged he was listening in on the telephone call during which President Trump pressured the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son.

archived recording (mike pompeo) As for was I on the phone call, I was on the phone call. The phone call was in the context of — now I guess I’d been secretary of state for coming on a year and a half. I know precisely what the American policy is with respect to Ukraine. It’s been remarkably consistent.

michael barbaro

Pompeo had previously expressed ignorance of the call, raising questions about whether he misled the public about his role. Soon after, during a news conference in Washington, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, warned that the leaders of the impeachment inquiry would soon subpoena documents related to the Ukraine call directly from the White House, which has resisted cooperating.

archived recording (adam schiff) So they just need to know that even as they try to undermine our ability to find the facts around the president’s effort to coerce a foreign leader to create dirt that he can use against a political opponent, that they will be strengthening the case on obstruction if they behave that way.

michael barbaro

Later on Wednesday, speaking from the White House, President Trump denounced Schiff, accusing him, without evidence, of treason, and revived his theory that Democrats had collaborated with Ukraine to hurt him during the 2016 campaign.

archived recording (donald trump) What the Democrats did in 2016 was corrupt. And let’s see what happens. They’re more concerned with that than they are with me and impeachment. They’re trying to hide what maybe is coming. I let —

michael barbaro

The president said it was a matter of time before information emerged that showed Democrats were engaged in a cover up.

archived recording (donald trump) Because they know they’re guilty as hell, all right? They’re much more worried about that.

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

[music]