Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani appeared on television again Sunday with another round of spin, this time echoing what former Trump lawyer John Dowd said Saturday — that White House counsel Don McGahn was “a strong witness for the the President,” despite Giuliani acknowledging he only had a “good sense” of what McGahn told investigators over at least 30 hours of interviews.

“I can figure it out,” Giuliani said of the substance McGahn’s interviews.

Giuliani also asserted that, if Mueller’s obstruction probe ultimately came down to Trump’s word against fired FBI Director James Comey’s, “truth isn’t truth.”

“I am not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury,” Giuliani said, repeating a frequently made point. “And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he is going to tell the truth and he shouldn’t worry, that’s so silly because it’s somebody’s version of the truth, not the truth.”

“Truth is truth,” Todd responded, exasperated.

“No it isn’t truth! Truth isn’t truth!” Giuliani said, adding: “Donald Trump says I didn’t talk about Flynn with Comey. Comey says you did talk about. So tell me what the truth is!”

Elsewhere in the interview, Giuliani executed the same 180° turn the President did weeks ago, acknowledging that the campaign-era meeting in Trump Tower between senior campaign officials and Russians “was originally for the purpose of getting information about [Hillary] Clinton.”

But, straining all credibility, Giuliani asserted Natalia Veselnitskaya was not thought to have represented the Russian government.

“She didn’t represent the Russian government!” he exclaimed, after Todd pointed out that the Clinton dirt the Trump team had been expecting purported to come “from the Russian government.”

“She is a private citizen,” Giuliani said. “I don’t even know if they knew she was Russian at the time! All they had was her name.”

“I think they knew she was Russian at the time,” Todd asserted.

“Well, they knew it when they met with her, not when they set up the meeting,” Giuliani responded. “You told me, did they show an intention to do anything with Russians? All they knew is that a woman with a Russian name wanted to meet with them. They didn’t know she was a representative of the Russian government, and indeed she is not a representative of the Russian government.”

That is, simply, a lie: Donald Trump Jr. himself released emails in which British publicist Rob Goldstone claimed Veselnitskaya represented the Russian government in its effort to “support” Trump.

Excerpt from June 3, 2016 email from Goldstone to Trump Jr., emphasis added:

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father. This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

Excerpt from June 7, 2016 email from Goldstone to Trump Jr., emphasis added:

Emin asked that I schedule a meeting with you and The Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this Thursday. I believe you are aware of the meeting – and so wondered if 3pm or later on Thursday works for you?

Watch the interview below via NBC News: