Jason Isbell and George Saunders have a lot in common. They’re both Southerners: Saunders was born in Amarillo, Texas and Isbell in Green Hill, Alabama. They’ve also both had career-defining years. Isbell’s sixth studio album, The Nashville Sound, came out to critical acclaim and a top-five spot on the Billboard chart, and is up for CMA album of the year. Saunders, long one of America’s most celebrated short story writers, released his hotly-anticipated first novel, Lincoln in the Bardo, which this afternoon won the prestigious Man Booker Prize. They’ve both privately dabbled in the other’s line of work. Isbell, who wrote hits for the Drive By Truckers before going solo, has tried his hand at fiction; and Saunders, who plays a little guitar, has taken stabs at songwriting (and even performed on Stephen Colbert). They’re both meticulous about the creative process, and are avid fans of each other’s writing. But Isbell and Saunders had never met—until we introduced them in Oakland, CA, before Isbell’s sold-out swing through the city. The hour-long meeting of the minds—an excerpt of which is below—touches on everything from the writing process to the problem with the American Dream. Watch the full video above.

George Saunders: I’ve heard you talk about this distinction between entertainer and artist. What is art supposed to do? Especially at a time like ours, which is a little nutty.

Jason Isbell: That’s a tough one. You know, I didn’t consider myself an artist for a long time. I think I was thinking of it as art is just really, really good entertainment, and when you get really good at entertaining people, all of a sudden you’re an artist. But that’s not exactly true I don’t think. I feel like art exists because it is needed. And I think a lot of it has to do with how you aim the work that you’re doing, and if you don’t aim it at all, if you’re just throwing chickens out the window, then I think in some ways you’re making art. Because if it’s more important to you to say something, even if that something is convoluted and hard to understand, than it is to attract something, or to sell something, then I think you might be making art.