Ulrik Hogrebe: The occasion for this interview is your workshop at the upcoming Typographics conference here in New York, called Integrating Word and Image. Maybe we should just start with unpacking that a bit?

Michael Doret: Ever since I started doing lettering I’ve had this thing about not wanting my work to get slapped across a photo or another’s illustration. That was the kind of work I was getting when I was starting out — “do this lettering and we’ll put it on this magazine cover over a picture”.

Integrating Word & Image

It always bugged me that the two things were always two separate elements that never really went together. I was not an illustrator by any means, so I had an inferiority complex in the area of creating imagery. But little by little I forced myself to try to add illustrative elements to my work, and eventually I started getting jobs that were more than just lettering. I could now do a complete magazine cover and control how everything looked — making a complete graphic statement instead of just piecemeal elements.

Even when I was starting out and was working together with two great illustrators (Charles White III and Doug Johnson), I would try to pick up on what they were doing and incorporate elements of their work into mine so that it all felt like a single piece instead of an illustration + lettering — and it was this type of approach that has expanded into what I’ve been doing for many years.

Incorporating lettering & image: one of twelve graphics Michael did for The Jewish Zodiac

So I would like to challenge all those young illustrators, lettering artists, type aficionados, and graphic designers out there to not limit themselves to doing just their one area of concentration, but to find ways to incorporate lettering and imagery into their work. I’d like to see work where you cannot tell where the lettering ends, and the imagery begins.

UH: When people ask you what you do, what do you tell them?

MD: Well, the short answer is that I tell them I’m a graphic designer whose work has a major concentration on lettering — and everything that entails. Letterforms have always been my focus, even when I was just starting out.

When I graduated Cooper Union my first job was at Photo-Lettering as assistant to Ed Benguiat — a legend in the field of typography and font design — but when I started working with him, I had no idea about who he was and his reputation. He taught me almost everything I know about creating letters. So everything expanded outwards from that one year I worked with him.

Ed Benguiat in front of some of his typeface, Berlin 2008. Photo by Sven

After working at Photo-Lettering I held a series of staff positions at different companies for several years. But before I went out on my own Ed had recommended me to Milton Glaser who hired me to come and work at Push Pin Studios on a freelance basis, to take some lettering he had done for a Loving Spoonful poster and turn it into a complete font. Working with Milton was a tremendous experience.

After my short time at Push Pin I held two other staff jobs before finally making the break, quitting my day job and setting out on my own.

UH: And since then, you’ve really been quite prolific: you’ve designed record covers, posters, typefaces, magazines, advertising, logos — including the New York Knicks logo.

In terms of your work, I feel you have a very recognizable style. I read that you grew up around Coney Island and that visual universe of Americana and carnival. What attracted you to that style?

MD: It didn’t attract me . . . it was just there confronting me. But it wasn’t just Coney Island, it was Times Square where my dad worked, and it was just living in Brooklyn at that particular point in time. But it was also me — and whatever genetic predispositions I might have had that made me focus on certain things , and not on others. I think you can see all those influences in just about everything I’ve done. I don’t try to do it, it just happens despite any efforts on my part to go in other directions!

Reference image from Michael’s childhood: “Crime Club” — the shapes that go into making up the figure pointing the gun are letters which spell out the word “CRIME”. A perfect example of integrating letter and image!

“Style” is something that has to come from within. I never think about if what I’m doing has a style that syncs up with work I’ve done before. I’ve done such a wide variety of work in what I think of as different “styles”, but people always tell me that they can recognize any of my work a mile away.

I think it all derives from the visual universe that surrounded me as a kid. I’ve always been very visual, and I can remember all sorts of things that I hyper-focused on as a kid that have resurfaced in my work as an adult. But I never think about it or try to incorporate any of that — it just happens subconsciously.

UH: So maybe this is a good segue back in to the workshop —I think from what you are describing there is a clear line from your experiences to the workshop.

Are you expecting it to be mainly “letterers” that attend? Or is it aimed at anyone who works with letterforms or type in general?

MD: Oh yes! When I said “lettering designers” I really didn’t mean that as a restriction. It could be anyone that wants to work with typography or lettering. It could be illustrators or graphic designers who want to expand their work. Basically anyone who is fascinated with this area.

But if someone signs up for this class looking for an instructional “how-to”, this might not be the best fit for them. I’m not going to teach how to create proper letterforms or anything like that! This will be more about utilizing their talents and directing or encouraging them to do things they may not have thought to try.

UH: Is there an element of self discovery to the class?

MD: I hope so! I think classes like this can be more valuable in the long run than learning the “rules”. But of course you need to have a basic knowledge of what the rules are before you go out and try to break them!

Kiss album cover designed by Michael

The work that was the most inspiring to me was the work of all those artists who toiled away anonymously in “bullpens” creating graphics that many would consider “wrong”. Of course I studied all the greats, but my heart is always with the sign painter who did things that weren’t taught in school and were thought of as odd or curious — things that I might never have thought of doing. Those were my real “mentors”. I would like to impart some of that excitement that I felt to the students in my workshop.

UH: Are you asking participants to reflect on some of their own influences? Where they are coming from themselves, before schooling?

MD: Well, perhaps. I think everyone should come to this with their own perspective. Certainly because my path took a certain direction, I wouldn’t expect others to have had similar experiences. I might ask participants to come to class prepared to talk about who their heroes are, and what types of things directed them to what they are most interested in now.

UH: What are you hoping the workshop will look like? It runs over 4 days right?

Michael speaking at Deutsch Advertising

MD: I’m hoping it will be diverse, with participants bringing a wide range of experiences to bear on the work they do. I will have a variety of assignments they can choose from, and the choice will be theirs as to how much they do. They might choose to just take their work to pencil sketch stages, or they might choose to do finished art. It can be digital, or it might even be done in traditional media — it all depends on the individual and what they hope to get out of their participation

UH: Fantastic. Is there anything that you want to end with?

MD: I’m excited to have been asked by Cooper Union (my alma mater) to do this. It’s been a long time coming, but I feel that there’s been a “renaissance” of interest in letterforms that’s been developing over the last several years — with young people leading the charge. This is particularly gratifying to me, as I think it’s been long overdue. I love the energy that young people have been bringing to the realm of letterforms and illustration, and if there’s any way that I can help nudge this along, it will be very satisfying to me.

UH: What about at Typographics itself? Who are you looking forward to seeing?

Well, Mike Essl for sure! Actually, the world that I have usually been the most comfortable in, is the world of illustrators — I know quite a few of them. Generally I haven’t been very close to most of the people in the world of typography and letterforms — which I think is one of the reasons my work has been a bit out of the mainstream for so long. I feel more of an affinity with the young people who have taken up the torch than I do with many of those who are more established in this world. But I do hope to meet a lot more of them — both younger and older, and Typographics will be a good place to do that!

UH: Well, I am certainly looking forward to meeting you there. Michael, this has been a pleasure. Take care — and good luck with the workshop!

MD: The pleasure has been all mine! Good night!