Ovid Profile Blog Joined October 2013 United Kingdom 948 Posts #2 On the subject of map control will you be discussing maps and map design and how it affects the ability of each race at different points to gain map control?

If you are will you dicuss particular map features that enable more dynamic back and forth mapcontrol based aggression. I will make Yogg Saron priest work...

TelecoM Profile Blog Joined January 2010 United States 10256 Posts #3 Awesome! Will check it out now. Thanks for sharing this TLStrat ~ AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting

Whitewing Profile Joined October 2010 United States 7480 Posts #4 On July 01 2015 04:56 Ovid wrote:

On the subject of map control will you be discussing maps and map design and how it affects the ability of each race at different points to gain map control?

If you are will you dicuss particular map features that enable more dynamic back and forth mapcontrol based aggression.



Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps. Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps. Strategy "You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John

Ovid Profile Blog Joined October 2013 United Kingdom 948 Posts #5 On July 01 2015 05:00 Whitewing wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 01 2015 04:56 Ovid wrote:

On the subject of map control will you be discussing maps and map design and how it affects the ability of each race at different points to gain map control?

If you are will you dicuss particular map features that enable more dynamic back and forth mapcontrol based aggression.



Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps. Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps.



In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion? In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion? I will make Yogg Saron priest work...

Whitewing Profile Joined October 2010 United States 7480 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-30 23:53:38 #6 On July 01 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 01 2015 05:00 Whitewing wrote:

On July 01 2015 04:56 Ovid wrote:

On the subject of map control will you be discussing maps and map design and how it affects the ability of each race at different points to gain map control?

If you are will you dicuss particular map features that enable more dynamic back and forth mapcontrol based aggression.



Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps. Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps.



In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion? In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion?



We won't be discussing map design and layout beyond how it relates with map control, so this is not a map specific episode. That said, it's certainly an idea to consider.



We will have a show on maps that's separate from this one at one point. We won't be discussing map design and layout beyond how it relates with map control, so this is not a map specific episode. That said, it's certainly an idea to consider.We will have a show on maps that's separate from this one at one point. Strategy "You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4833 Posts #7 Reminder that we will be hosting our second show this Saturday at 5:00pm EDT again! The subject this week is going to be Map Control and how units/maps relate to the concept :D.



Also, remember that you can follow us @TLStrategyChat on Twitter for up-to-date info! Strategy

tokinho Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 772 Posts Last Edited: 2015-07-08 21:00:58 #8



Download all wcs s2 reps



Some insight, hydra shows +1 attack on the lings really early, trying to get lilbow to go blink stalkers to deal with muta. (he doesn't go muta) Lilbow scouts and goes chargelot archon. If you could talk about this game i think it would be interesting. It was a really good read by lilbow (who hydra would have seen him play a scouting heavy style and beat bunny by faking strength.) and heavily under appreciated. I think it also gives insight into the style lilbow plays as i think he is one of the best strategic protoss players at the moment. @sc2john, I was wondering if you could talk about game 1 hydra vs lilbow from the wcs finals.Some insight, hydra shows +1 attack on the lings really early, trying to get lilbow to go blink stalkers to deal with muta. (he doesn't go muta) Lilbow scouts and goes chargelot archon. If you could talk about this game i think it would be interesting. It was a really good read by lilbow (who hydra would have seen him play a scouting heavy style and beat bunny by faking strength.) and heavily under appreciated. I think it also gives insight into the style lilbow plays as i think he is one of the best strategic protoss players at the moment. Beyond One's Grasp

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4833 Posts #9 On July 09 2015 05:59 tokinho wrote:

@sc2john, I was wondering if you could talk about game 1 hydra vs lilbow from the wcs finals.



Download all wcs s2 reps



Some insight, hydra shows +1 attack on the lings really early, trying to get lilbow to go blink stalkers to deal with muta. (he doesn't go muta) Lilbow scouts and goes chargelot archon. If you could talk about this game i think it would be interesting. It was a really good read by lilbow (who hydra would have seen him play a scouting heavy style and beat bunny by faking strength.) and heavily under appreciated. I think it also gives insight into the style lilbow plays as i think he is one of the best strategic protoss players at the moment. @sc2john, I was wondering if you could talk about game 1 hydra vs lilbow from the wcs finals.Some insight, hydra shows +1 attack on the lings really early, trying to get lilbow to go blink stalkers to deal with muta. (he doesn't go muta) Lilbow scouts and goes chargelot archon. If you could talk about this game i think it would be interesting. It was a really good read by lilbow (who hydra would have seen him play a scouting heavy style and beat bunny by faking strength.) and heavily under appreciated. I think it also gives insight into the style lilbow plays as i think he is one of the best strategic protoss players at the moment.



I'll just address it here in the thread ^^.



This game sucks. Lilbow does a completely blind 3-base chargelot/archon build which Hydra fails to respond properly to. Basically, both players are completely tunnel-visioned into doing the strategy they prepared for the map, so much so that there is literally no real strategic interaction between the two of them. The fact that Lilbow's build just happens to get 2 archons at the exact timing that Hydra's roach timing hits is pure coincidence, and honestly only his excellent micro allows him to avoid outright losing there.



Don't copy this build on ladder unless you're okay with a 50/50 chance of winning.



+ Show Spoiler + First of all, who the fuck is Lilbow lol, and why is he playing in the WCS finals. I've been out of the loop quite a bit, so my analysis may not be 100% on point, but I'll give it a go.



So the game starts with a risky gold base first, which doesn't actually gets scouted; To follow up, Hydra gets ling speed fairly quickly in order to defend it (6:15). So, from what I can tell, Lilbow blindly takes a 3rd nexus, and even though Hydra has the potential to rush out ~30 lings at 6:30, he chooses not to on the assumption that the gold base will get him further ahead in the long run. Tbh, I feel like Lilbow's early build matches up with Hydra's purely out of luck. Had Hydra just gone gasless triple hatch with the gold base, he would have been super far ahead; granted, that's unlikely, but the fact that Lilbow has no opportunity to punish Hydra's expansion is merely a factor of luck.



The chargelot/archon build was more pure luck. He starts charge before even scouting Hydra's base, so it was obviously a pre-planned build. Perhaps there's room in the build to cancel charge and go blink as he scouts the gas counts at the Zerg natural and 3rd (full gases at all bases mean no roach timing, likely mean mutalisks). The combination of only 3 bases and a total of 4 gases (assumed that the main base has both gases taken) means that Hydra is most definitely gearing up for a roach timing. The defense of the roach timing is absolutely beautiful. Again, the fact that this is a blind 3-base build going up against a Zerg player who went gold base first into ling speed into a fast third base means that the timings coincidentally lined up for the archons to just BARELY be able to get up in time. However, the micro is excellent.



The reason why chargelot/archon died for such a long time in pro play is that 1) colossus-less styles got LOLed on by swarm hosts, and 2) the threat of a heavy ground army (roaches/hydras) vs the threat of mutalisks made zealot/archon a huge risk -- you'd end up losing way too much trying to defend mutalisks to be able to make use of the raw power of the composition. As for new swarm hosts, I can't confirm on their efficacy versus gateway armies, but I assume they still do decently well if you pat attention and kite with them. In this scenario, Hydra panicked after losing his roach push so horribly and began spamming ling/roach while trying to do a cute counterattack with the swarm hosts. What he should have done instead was used the swarm hosts to kite the gateway army while using his ling/roach group to counterattack and building static defense at home. This would have whittled away the gateway numbers before Lilbow could move across the map and also forced defensive warpins to happen at home, allowing Hydra's superior 4-base economy to translate into a tech advantage and just steamroll the inferior zealot/archon composition. I'll just address it here in the thread ^^.This game sucks. Lilbow does a completely blind 3-base chargelot/archon build which Hydra fails to respond properly to. Basically, both players are completely tunnel-visioned into doing the strategy they prepared for the map, so much so that there is literally no real strategic interaction between the two of them. The fact that Lilbow's build just happens to get 2 archons at the exact timing that Hydra's roach timing hits is pure coincidence, and honestly only his excellent micro allows him to avoid outright losing there.Don't copy this build on ladder unless you're okay with a 50/50 chance of winning. Strategy

Jowj Profile Joined June 2012 United States 248 Posts #10

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Lilbow/Results Chris, Lilbow owns. 2nd at WCS, 5-8th at HSC in the last month. He's also been around since HOTS basically. Check out his results page: Strategy

Teoita Profile Blog Joined January 2011 Italy 11897 Posts #11 Wtf Chris did you not get the memo? The new swarm hosts don't exist Moderator Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4833 Posts #12 On July 11 2015 07:52 Teoita wrote:

Wtf Chris did you not get the memo? The new swarm hosts don't exist



I guess Hydra vs Lilbow is a great example of why. I guess Hydra vs Lilbow is a great example of why. Strategy

Big J Profile Joined March 2011 Austria 16272 Posts Last Edited: 2015-07-11 01:49:02 #13



Edit: It's really interesting how everyone has his own little view on this topic of hard counters and strategical diversity and strategical equilibria. Like, I would totally agree with Whitewings view when it comes to the Nash-Equilibrium stuff. But then again, I would totally take a very "vanilla" stance on what a hard counter is and why I think they are much worse than what you people say. (which has to do with the different definition I'd use) Half way into the VoD, so everyone here has studied math or something related? Awesome!Edit: It's really interesting how everyone has his own little view on this topic of hard counters and strategical diversity and strategical equilibria. Like, I would totally agree with Whitewings view when it comes to the Nash-Equilibrium stuff. But then again, I would totally take a very "vanilla" stance on what a hard counter is and why I think they are much worse than what you people say. (which has to do with the different definition I'd use)

Whitewing Profile Joined October 2010 United States 7480 Posts #14 On July 11 2015 09:20 Big J wrote:

Half way into the VoD, so everyone here has studied math or something related? Awesome! Half way into the VoD, so everyone here has studied math or something related? Awesome!



I <3 math. I <3 math. Strategy "You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John

Uvantak Profile Blog Joined June 2011 Uruguay 1380 Posts #15 On July 01 2015 08:51 Whitewing wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 01 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:

On July 01 2015 05:00 Whitewing wrote:

On July 01 2015 04:56 Ovid wrote:

On the subject of map control will you be discussing maps and map design and how it affects the ability of each race at different points to gain map control?

If you are will you dicuss particular map features that enable more dynamic back and forth mapcontrol based aggression.



Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps. Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps.



In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion? In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion?



We won't be discussing map design and layout beyond how it relates with map control, so this is not a map specific episode. That said, it's certainly an idea to consider.



We will have a show on maps that's separate from this one at one point. We won't be discussing map design and layout beyond how it relates with map control, so this is not a map specific episode. That said, it's certainly an idea to consider.We will have a show on maps that's separate from this one at one point.

If you guys are planning to have a map related/focused show I would really like to be there and talk about things, sounds lots of fun. If you guys are planning to have a map related/focused show I would really like to be there and talk about things, sounds lots of fun. @Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.

Whitewing Profile Joined October 2010 United States 7480 Posts #16 On July 11 2015 11:04 Uvantak wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 01 2015 08:51 Whitewing wrote:

On July 01 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:

On July 01 2015 05:00 Whitewing wrote:

On July 01 2015 04:56 Ovid wrote:

On the subject of map control will you be discussing maps and map design and how it affects the ability of each race at different points to gain map control?

If you are will you dicuss particular map features that enable more dynamic back and forth mapcontrol based aggression.



Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps. Oh absolutely, you can't discuss map control without discussing maps.



In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion? In the other thread Meavis the ex map maker/map maker offered to take part if the subject related to maps, are you going to bring him or another map maker on to help the discussion?



We won't be discussing map design and layout beyond how it relates with map control, so this is not a map specific episode. That said, it's certainly an idea to consider.



We will have a show on maps that's separate from this one at one point. We won't be discussing map design and layout beyond how it relates with map control, so this is not a map specific episode. That said, it's certainly an idea to consider.We will have a show on maps that's separate from this one at one point.

If you guys are planning to have a map related/focused show I would really like to be there and talk about things, sounds lots of fun. If you guys are planning to have a map related/focused show I would really like to be there and talk about things, sounds lots of fun.



We absolutely will be doing a map focused show in the future. We absolutely will be doing a map focused show in the future. Strategy "You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4833 Posts #17



http://www.teamliquid.net/calendar/2015/07/11 Strat Chat Episode 2 tonight at 5:00pm EDT! Tune in at www.twitch.tv/johnsc2 and submit us questions and thoughts @TLStrategyChat on Twitter! Strategy

EsportsJohn Profile Blog Joined June 2012 United States 4833 Posts #18 Strategy

NEEDZMOAR Profile Blog Joined December 2011 Sweden 1272 Posts #19 stream isnt listed under the event on the sidebar.

Jer99 Profile Blog Joined April 2011 Canada 8155 Posts #20 it's up there Strategy TaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"

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