A former Prime Minister’s Office lawyer has testified that Stephen Harper’s chief of staff Ray Novak was “present throughout” a March 2013 conference call when the plan for Nigel Wright to repay Sen. Mike Duffy’s questionable expenses was discussed.



Lawyer Benjamin Perrin said he was “shocked” to hear during the March 22, 2013 call that Wright would be providing the funds to cover Duffy’s expenses.

Perrin also offered other interesting details in his testimony at Duffy’s trial in Ottawa on Thursday:

That he disagreed with Harper’s suggestion that a senator needed only to own property in a province in order to represent it.

That he advised Wright against a PMO attempt to interfere in a Deloitte audit that Perrin believed the firm had a duty to go ahead with.

That he turned to Novak when Wright said he would provide the funds, and that Novak showed no reaction.

Perrin has previously stated to the RCMP that Novak was on the call, which has raised questions about why Novak – who was then Harper’s principal secretary but promoted after Wright’s resignation -- had said he didn’t learn of the $90,000 cheque until CTV’s Robert Fife broke the story on May 14, 2013.

Harper, who also maintains he didn’t learn of the plan until May 2013, was asked at a campaign stop in Ontario Thursday whether he stands by Novak.

“When people are working for me, they have my confidence. If they didn't have my confidence, they wouldn't be working for me,” Harper said.

“And in this case I have held the two people accountable who are responsible,” Harper added. “And I'm not going to go around holding everybody else accountable for their actions.”

Novak has been out of sight at Conservative events for days, but video shot Thursday confirmed he is still on the campaign trail.

Conservative spokesman Kory Teneycke told reporters last week he has known Novak for 20 years and that it is “unfathomable that Ray would be aware of a payment from Nigel to Mr. Duffy and not tell the prime minister.”

Perrin offered a different recollection of the March 22, 2013 phone meeting than the one Wright gave earlier this week when he was on the witness stand.

Wright had said Tuesday under cross-examination from Duffy’s lawyer Donald Bayne that Novak “may have dropped into the office for a part of it, but he wasn’t on the call.”

Perrin asserted, however, that Novak was “present throughout the call,” which took place in Wright’s office with Duffy’s then-lawyer Janice Payne on the other end of the telephone line.

Perrin said Wright told Payne that Duffy was going to pay the money back because it was going to come from his own pockets.

“Without skipping a beat, Wright and Payne discussed how this funding was going to be provided from Wright to Duffy,” he said.

Perrin said that had he learned of the plan for Wright to provide the money just before the call.

Perrin said he was surprised because there had not been any consultation with him and that he turned to Novak for his reaction but he “didn’t have any reaction.”

Perrin also said PMO staffers had advised that Duffy not to take part in an audit launched by the Senate and that Perrin found that unethical.

Perrin said that, once he learned staffers were contacting the Deloitte auditors, he advised Wright that it was wrong, and that Wright had agreed.

Earlier in the day, Perrin testified that he provided a legal opinion in February 2013 to Harper on how to evaluate whether a senator met the constitutional requirements for serving on behalf a particular province.

That opinion was requested after questions were raised in the media about whether Sen. Mike Duffy really lived in Prince Edward Island, the province he was appointed to represent.

The Constitution specifies that a senator must own at least $4,000 worth of property but it also says a senator "shall be resident" in the province he or she is appointed to represent.

Perrin said he was “taken aback” after Harper maintained that the minimum property requirement should be the only test of eligibility.

“To me, both legally and practically, it seemed untenable,” Perrin testified.

Duffy is on accused of fraud, breach of trust and bribery. He has pleaded not guilty on all charges.

The trial is expected to resume Friday at 10 a.m.