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LegendaryActivity: 1227Merit: 1000 P2P EXCHANGE November 19, 2013, 07:22:54 PM

Last edit: December 20, 2013, 11:37:42 AM by flix #1 ----I have withdrawn the bounty due to lack of interest----





There are several teams working on P2P Bitcoin Exchanges based on a completely decentralised, no-third party trust required, no need to know your counterparty, zero fee models.



I am very much looking forward to this exciting tech coming online, and I want to give the guys working on it an extra incentive to hurry up and get it out there.



So I propose a bounty for the developers to first release an open source P2P exchange software. If we can get a decent-sized bounty going maybe that will give these developers a good reason to work on this full time.





You don't have to send me (or anyone) BTC s, just state your pledges here. I trust you guys to pay up when the time comes!





As well as your pledges, I welcome your suggestions on what conditions the software should meet to deserve our reward.



Needless to say the benefits of such a development would be huge for anybody holding or using bitcoins. It would remove a major vulnerability for the network embodied by the centralised exchanges. It would make Bitcoin accessible to a much wider audience. It would make regulation of Bitcoin exchangers irrelevant. It would remove exposure to the banking network with its delays and unending rules. It would make knowing your counterparty and his reputation unnecessary.



CONDITIONS



1. Open source

2. No third-party trust required (no third party escrow, server, website, etc..)

3. No commissions (except for network fees)

4. No need for identity verification. No need for reputation.

5. Include a mechanism that ensures that transactions, once initiated, are completed.

6. Allows users to exchange $  ¥ <--> BTC within hours.



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Hero MemberActivity: 672Merit: 500 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 19, 2013, 08:20:39 PM

Last edit: November 19, 2013, 08:32:40 PM by bybitcoin #3 Mastercoin and Coloredcoins both are working for obtaining this objective, both good projects, first one with huge funding and second with a good development bounty. There is another one, claiming to pay dividends too, but it is an obvious ponzi.

Nxt and eMunie both will have p2pexchanges natively attached (both altcoins). Nxt is a pure POS and will be launched in a few days..

And there is Freimarkets which called for crowd funding to start developing the whitepaper scheme, but the last time I spoke with its creator, he told me that crowd funding has not been satisfactory yet (about month ago)

Among those three (mastercoin-coloredcoin-freimarket) I found freimarket the advanced one, you may have a look into their whitepapers each to decide for yourself. Also Nxt if what its creator said before become true will be a very suitable choice to use for trading securites (decentralized coloredcoin exchange+instant transactions+internal messaging+decentralized DNS features). This is to be seen soon in practice of course. eMunie will be launched in January with several similar advanced features promised. There is the possibility to use these altcoins as a dilemma to exchange btc securities, commodities or any other token.. Have a look into them as well.







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LegendaryActivity: 1227Merit: 1000 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 19, 2013, 08:29:23 PM

Last edit: December 19, 2013, 09:57:55 AM by flix #4 Quote from: bybitcoin on November 19, 2013, 08:20:39 PM Mastercoin and Coloredcoins both are working for obtaining this objective, both good projects, first one with huge funding and second with a good development bounty. There is another one, claiming to pay dividends too, but it is an obvious ponzi.

Nxt and eMunie both will have p2pexchanges natively attached (both altcoins). Nxt is a pure POS and will be launched in a few days..

And there is Freimarkets which called for crowd funding to start developing the whitepaper scheme, but the last time I spoke with its creator, he told me that crowd funding has not been satisfactory yet (about month ago)

Among those three (mastercoin-coloredcoin-freimarket) I found freimarket the advanced one, you may have a look into their whitepapers each to decide for yourself. Also Nxt if what its creator said before become true will be a very suitable choice to use for trading securites (decentralized coloredcoin exchange+instant transactions+internal messaging+decentralized DNS features). This is to be seen soon in practice, you may have a look too. eMunie will be launched in January with several similar advanced features promised. There is the possibility to use these altcoins as a dilemma to to exchange btc securities, commodities and any other token.. Have a look into them too.





..that's a lot more people working on this than I thought. Thanks.



MasterCoin white paper:

Coloredcoins: http://coloredcoins.org/

Freimarkets:

Pauv:

Emunie

DACs

Factum Exchange

Elqnt Exchange



DO you have ETAs for a working P2P exchange that can be used to exchange BTC <->$ from any of these? ..that's a lot more people working on this than I thought. Thanks.MasterCoin white paper: https://github.com/mastercoin-MSC/spec Coloredcoins: http://coloredcoins.org/Freimarkets: http://freico.in/docs/freimarkets-v0.0.1.pdf Pauv: http://pauv.org/paper.pdf Emunie http://emunie.com/ DACs http://invictus-innovations.com/i-dac/ Factum Exchange http://xk.io/wp/?p=34 Elqnt Exchange https://secure.elqnt.org/ DO you have ETAs for a working P2P exchange that can be used to exchange$ from any of these?

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Hero MemberActivity: 672Merit: 500 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 19, 2013, 09:20:29 PM #6 Quote from: flix on November 19, 2013, 08:29:23 PM Quote from: bybitcoin on November 19, 2013, 08:20:39 PM Mastercoin and Coloredcoins both are working for obtaining this objective, both good projects, first one with huge funding and second with a good development bounty. There is another one, claiming to pay dividends too, but it is an obvious ponzi.

Nxt and eMunie both will have p2pexchanges natively attached (both altcoins). Nxt is a pure POS and will be launched in a few days..

And there is Freimarkets which called for crowd funding to start developing the whitepaper scheme, but the last time I spoke with its creator, he told me that crowd funding has not been satisfactory yet (about month ago)

Among those three (mastercoin-coloredcoin-freimarket) I found freimarket the advanced one, you may have a look into their whitepapers each to decide for yourself. Also Nxt if what its creator said before become true will be a very suitable choice to use for trading securites (decentralized coloredcoin exchange+instant transactions+internal messaging+decentralized DNS features). This is to be seen soon in practice, you may have a look too. eMunie will be launched in January with several similar advanced features promised. There is the possibility to use these altcoins as a dilemma to to exchange btc securities, commodities and any other token.. Have a look into them too.





..that's a lot more people working on this than I thought. Thanks.



MasterCoin white paper:

Coloredcoins: http://coloredcoins.org/

Freimarkets:

Pauv: http://pauv.org/paper.pdf







DO you have ETAs for a working P2P exchange that can be used to exchange BTC <->$ from any of these?

..that's a lot more people working on this than I thought. Thanks.MasterCoin white paper: https://github.com/mastercoin-MSC/spec Coloredcoins: http://coloredcoins.org/Freimarkets: http://freico.in/docs/freimarkets-v0.0.1.pdf Pauv: http://pauv.org/paper.pdfDO you have ETAs for a working P2P exchange that can be used to exchange$ from any of these?

Nxt genesis block just has been released today, and will start this week AFAIK. It has colored coins feature implemented natively in a decentralized manner. It is possible to use it for trading any kind of tokens. There will be a direct BTC to Nxt exchange as well. Can't say more because it is to be seen before making practical judgement and also because I invested a small part (I have not the morality of Bump and Dump). I recommend you to have a look into it and decide for yourself. Also have an eye on eMunie which will be launched in January.

As for donations, the most deserved one is Freimarkets (I am not involved with it).

To answer the other guy who posted after you: yes coloredcoins themselves are not decentralized but they could be implemented in a decentralized manner (which is what the Nxt guys promised us). I saw your scheme too, it has been the recent one and I couldn't make a review and judgement yet.





Mastercoin and Coloredcoins are under development.. Freimarkets not started yet (needs donations)Nxt genesis block just has been released today, and will start this week AFAIK. It has colored coins feature implemented natively in a decentralized manner. It is possible to use it for trading any kind of tokens. There will be a direct BTC to Nxt exchange as well. Can't say more because it is to be seen before making practical judgement and also because I invested a small part (I have not the morality of Bump and Dump). I recommend you to have a look into it and decide for yourself. Also have an eye on eMunie which will be launched in January.As for donations, the most deserved one is Freimarkets (I am not involved with it).To answer the other guy who posted after you: yes coloredcoins themselves are not decentralized but they could be implemented in a decentralized manner (which is what the Nxt guys promised us). I saw your scheme too, it has been the recent one and I couldn't make a review and judgement yet.

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LegendaryActivity: 1050Merit: 1005 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 20, 2013, 07:19:13 AM #9



Our exchange will be pretty advanced and also take some effort to get running full steam due to various logistics required, so I imagine some other developers will beat us to it.



With ours in brief, not only can you exchange eMu for ANY other currency (be it fiat or other cryptos), it is also able to facilitate the transfer of any asset providing there is an entry in the system for it and someone is trading that item, be it physical or digital. I guess our exchange will be more like a P2P decentralized marketplace.



In addition to that, the fiat in and out points will be stable, and within the exchange itself there will be fiat assets. So you can trade eMu on the exchange for fiat, and hold that fiat in your wallet until you either decide to cash it out, or perhaps the price of eMu has dropped and you want to buy back in and profit.



There are still some points in our execution that we are still wrapping up, but I hope to have the eMunie system whitepaper finished this week with a section on the exchange/marketplace. A more detailed paper for the exchange will be published separately at a later date.



Only just noticed this....nice gesture!Our exchange will be pretty advanced and also take some effort to get running full steam due to various logistics required, so I imagine some other developers will beat us to it.With ours in brief, not only can you exchange eMu forother currency (be it fiat or other cryptos), it is also able to facilitate the transfer of anyproviding there is an entry in the system for it and someone is trading that item, be it physical or digital. I guess our exchange will be more like a P2P decentralized marketplace.In addition to that, the fiat in and out points will be stable, and within the exchange itself there will be fiat assets. So you can trade eMu on the exchange for fiat, and hold that fiat in your wallet until you either decide to cash it out, or perhaps the price of eMu has dropped and you want to buy back in and profit.There are still some points in our execution that we are still wrapping up, but I hope to have the eMunie system whitepaper finished this week with a section on the exchange/marketplace. A more detailed paper for the exchange will be published separately at a later date.



Web - Radix - DLT x.0Web - http://radix.global Forums - http://forum.radix.global Twitter - @radixdlt

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NewbieActivity: 37Merit: 0 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 20, 2013, 04:18:57 PM

Last edit: November 20, 2013, 04:29:03 PM by gotoalberto #10



1 - The software must provide a automatic way to exchange BTC by fiat money. The user just provide the price/BTC and the amount to buy or to sell.



2 - The software must not require any personal information about the user, just run and use the program.



3 - The software must be decentralized, it must not use any server, tracker or infrastructure, it must be P2P, for example as the Gnutella Protocol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnutella



4 - It must not use any third party services (as social networks), reputation methods (as LocalBitcoins, etc) or support from others users in the P2P network to ensure the exchange safety.

It must use Game Theory to ensure the safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory



5 - The software can uses third party services APIs (as banks, etc) to move FIAT money automatically between users, but the bank activity of these kind of services should not be related to the exchange activity.



6 - The software must allow to exchange money and BTC to users from anywhere in the world. For example, users from USA must be able to exchange money or BTC with users from EU.



7 - The software must be safe and opensource. In order to clarify, these should be the requirements to win the bounty proposed by @flix:1 - The software must provide a automatic way to exchange BTC by fiat money. The user just provide the price/BTC and the amount to buy or to sell.2 - The software must not require any personal information about the user, just run and use the program.3 - The software must be decentralized, it must not use any server, tracker or infrastructure, it must be P2P, for example as the Gnutella Protocol:4 - It must not use any third party services (as social networks), reputation methods (as LocalBitcoins, etc) or support from others users in the P2P network to ensure the exchange safety.It must use Game Theory to ensure the safety.5 - The software can uses third party services APIs (as banks, etc) to move FIAT money automatically between users, but the bank activity of these kind of services should not be related to the exchange activity.6 - The software must allow to exchange money and BTC to users from anywhere in the world. For example, users from USA must be able to exchange money or BTC with users from EU.7 - The software must be safe and opensource.

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NewbieActivity: 37Merit: 0 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 21, 2013, 08:50:00 AM #13 Quote from: foroplus on November 20, 2013, 06:37:59 PM That's what I would also add. Not only for BTCs, but also for other main alt coins like at least LTCs, and exchanging between them.



It would be awesome to have a tool like this Flix. Good point.

I don't agree, the objectives should be realistic and attainable.

@Foroplus, It is also desirable that we can exchange others cryptocurrencies in a P2P way, but i think that is better to create the Bitcoin Exchange in the first place, and then create another exchanges to other cryptocurrencies.

Also, the difficulty of exchange which works with multiple cryptocurrencies is much higher for a initial development. I don't agree, the objectives should be realistic and attainable.@Foroplus, It is also desirable that we can exchange others cryptocurrencies in a P2P way, but i think that is better to create the Bitcoin Exchange in the first place, and then create another exchanges to other cryptocurrencies.Also, the difficulty of exchange which works with multiple cryptocurrencies is much higher for a initial development.

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LegendaryActivity: 2562Merit: 1002 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 21, 2013, 11:00:05 AM #14 Quote from: flix on November 19, 2013, 07:22:54 PM CONDITIONS



1. Open source

2. No third-party trust required (no third party escrow, server, website, etc..)

3. No commissions (except for network fees)

4. No need for identity verification. No need for reputation.

5. Include a mechanism that ensures that transactions, once initiated, are completed.

6. Allows users to exchange $  ¥ <--> BTC within hours. 1. Is a given one

2. THIS is the most difficult (if not impossible?) part - you can try to limit this as much as possible, but in the end there is no way to transact fiat money without third party trust, as it is transacting on a different system than BTC.

3. clear

4. Might be quite difficult - if 2 was in place of course you don't need it anyways (you don't need it for BTC). If 2 were possible somehow thoug, there would be no need for BTC in the first place!

5. slightly difficult, fees should be low on one hand but prevent spamming and overloading on the other. I'd rewrite it to "once initiated, you quickly (within seconds) get a decision if it will be completed"

6. That's one of the main points I guess, it makes the other parts (especially 2 and 4) very hard if not impossible. Trading BTC for LTC and others is easy, because these altcoins fulfill #2. USD doesn't.





Quote from: gotoalberto on November 20, 2013, 04:18:57 PM



1 - The software must provide a automatic way to exchange BTC by fiat money. The user just provide the price/BTC and the amount to buy or to sell.



2 - The software must not require any personal information about the user, just run and use the program.



3 - The software must be decentralized, it must not use any server, tracker or infrastructure, it must be P2P, for example as the Gnutella Protocol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnutella



4 - It must not use any third party services (as social networks), reputation methods (as LocalBitcoins, etc) or support from others users in the P2P network to ensure the exchange safety.

It must use Game Theory to ensure the safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory



5 - The software can uses third party services APIs (as banks, etc) to move FIAT money automatically between users, but the bank activity of these kind of services should not be related to the exchange activity.



6 - The software must allow to exchange money and BTC to users from anywhere in the world. For example, users from USA must be able to exchange money or BTC with users from EU.



7 - The software must be safe and opensource.

In order to clarify, these should be the requirements to win the bounty proposed by @flix:1 - The software must provide a automatic way to exchange BTC by fiat money. The user just provide the price/BTC and the amount to buy or to sell.2 - The software must not require any personal information about the user, just run and use the program.3 - The software must be decentralized, it must not use any server, tracker or infrastructure, it must be P2P, for example as the Gnutella Protocol:4 - It must not use any third party services (as social networks), reputation methods (as LocalBitcoins, etc) or support from others users in the P2P network to ensure the exchange safety.It must use Game Theory to ensure the safety.5 - The software can uses third party services APIs (as banks, etc) to move FIAT money automatically between users, but the bank activity of these kind of services should not be related to the exchange activity.6 - The software must allow to exchange money and BTC to users from anywhere in the world. For example, users from USA must be able to exchange money or BTC with users from EU.7 - The software must be safe and opensource.

2 - of course!

3 - Must not even use any infrastructure?! Even Gnutella runs nodes and supernodes, which both act as servers and clients at the same time. I'm not too sure you mean what you just wrote the way it looks like to me - I think you mean something along the lines of "anyone with a fairly decent computer + internet connection can run a server and participate in the network"

4 - That looks more like the NashX approach - Game Theory only works if you have rational market participants (and look at current BTCUSD markets and tell me again that the participants there are acting rationally!)

5 - Which ones are "banks APIs" exactly by the way? I am currently checking out quite a few of them and the API part in the international finance community seems to be an utter and complete MESS beyond any imagination. Also you wrote about no infrastructure and no 3rd party risk, now we are allowed to use bank wires?! Nice, I'll open an account in Cyprus right away!

6 -Must they also be able to receive BTC and pay someone in North Korea? Kuba? Iran?

7 - of course, though "safe" is a bit weakly defined and I think you are talking about free software, not just open source.





There is already an exchange that fulfills nearly all the points you mention here by the way and it is live + trading as we speak. 1. Is a given one2. THIS is the most difficult (if not impossible?) part - you can try to limit this as much as possible, but in the end there is no way to transact fiat money without third party trust, as it is transacting on a different system than BTC.3. clear4. Might be quite difficult - if 2 was in place of course you don't need it anyways (you don't need it for BTC). If 2 were possible somehow thoug, there would be no need for BTC in the first place!5. slightly difficult, fees should be low on one hand but prevent spamming and overloading on the other. I'd rewrite it to "once initiated, you quickly (within seconds) get a decision if it will be completed"6. That's one of the main points I guess, it makes the other parts (especially 2 and 4) very hard if not impossible. Trading BTC for LTC and others is easy, because these altcoins fulfill #2. USD doesn't.1 - Where would each user send the money to and how? There must be no third party involved, so the only way this is possible (well, the only third party is the FED then) is when you have a physical dollar bill in your hand and the seller has e.g. 1 BTC on a private key only he knows. The transaction then needs to happen in a way that none of the two can shy away and also that they don't know or care about each other.2 - of course!3 - Must not even use any infrastructure?! Even Gnutella runs nodes and supernodes, which both act as servers and clients at the same time. I'm not too sure you mean what you just wrote the way it looks like to me - I think you mean something along the lines of "anyone with a fairly decent computer + internet connection can run a server and participate in the network"4 - That looks more like the NashX approach - Game Theory only works if you have rational market participants (and look at current BTCUSD markets and tell me again that the participants there are acting rationally!)5 - Which ones are "banks APIs" exactly by the way? I am currently checking out quite a few of them and the API part in the international finance community seems to be an utter and complete MESS beyond any imagination. Also you wrote about no infrastructure and no 3rd party risk, now we are allowed to use bank wires?! Nice, I'll open an account in Cyprus right away!6 -Must they also be able to receive BTC and pay someone in North Korea? Kuba? Iran?7 - of course, though "safe" is a bit weakly defined and I think you are talking about free software, not just open source.There is already an exchange that fulfills nearly all the points you mention here by the way and it is live + trading as we speak. https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.

https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.

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LegendaryActivity: 1227Merit: 1000 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 21, 2013, 12:04:11 PM

Last edit: November 22, 2013, 12:39:43 PM by flix #15



Quote 2. THIS is the most difficult (if not impossible?) part - you can try to limit this as much as possible, but in the end there is no way to transact fiat money without third party trust, as it is transacting on a different system than BTC.

I agree, it is pretty difficult. However necessary trust is greatly reduced if there is no single provider on which you must rely.. for example localbitcoins lets you list different payment methods (SEPA wires, OKPay, Paypal, Swift wires, Western Union, Neteller, Skrill, etc...) Similarly with Bitcoin-otc which lets you choose payment method.



I would be fine with trusting an external provider as long as the P2P exchange did not add another level of required trust... The greater the number of required intermediaries, the more points of attack/failure... The greater choice of payment mechanisms, the more flexibility and resilience of the system.







https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_methods



So if an exchange involves only 3 parties (Buyer-money processor-Seller) it would be a great step up from the current situation (Buyer - money processor - exchange - seller). Of course you can do true P2P in person (buyer - seller) thanks to localbitcoins and other ad listing sites.. but you can't do that online. That's the big challenge.



I think it's difficult, but not impossible.



If you think that it is impossible, feel free to add your pledge to the bounty in the hope that you won't have to pay up 2. No third-party trust required (no third party escrow, server, website, etc..)I agree, it is pretty difficult. However necessary trust is greatly reduced if there is no single provider on which you must rely.. for example localbitcoins lets you list different payment methods (SEPA wires, OKPay, Paypal, Swift wires, Western Union, Neteller, Skrill, etc...) Similarly with Bitcoin-otc which lets you choose payment method.I would be fine with trusting an external provider as long as the P2P exchange did not add another level of required trust... The greater the number of required intermediaries, the more points of attack/failure... The greater choice of payment mechanisms, the more flexibility and resilience of the system.So if an exchange involves only 3 parties (Buyer-money processor-Seller) it would be a great step up from the current situation (Buyer - money processor - exchange - seller). Of course you can do true P2P in person (buyer - seller) thanks to localbitcoins and other ad listing sites.. but you can't do that online. That's the big challenge.I think it's difficult, but not impossible.If you think that it is impossible, feel free to add your pledge to the bounty in the hope that you won't have to pay up

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LegendaryActivity: 2562Merit: 1002 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 21, 2013, 01:03:26 PM #16 Well, if you only need to involve 3 parties (actually maybe 4, as the Bitcoin block chain is also a party in this, although very transparent concerning trust), you can already use the platform I hinted about... it's good enough for me. The parties involved for a BTC trade are: BTC blockchain --> web wallet funds storage (in BTC) --> distributed exchange --> web wallet funds storage (in USD) --> whatever payout method is supported by the web wallet funds provider (e.g. SEPA, PayPal...). These providers might need a license as e-money issuers in most western jurisdictions, but not as money exchangers as all they do is issue a balance on the distributed exchange, not do the actual trading.

Currently the fund storage on both ends as well as the trading engine is supplied by 1 single entity (e.g. MtGox) which is likely what you want to overcome. Most likely there will still be a need to give away funds to a trusted third party and to trust the same or another third party to release funds on a different channel unless there are ways other than cash to truly send fiat money that you own and that is not at a service provider (bank, paypal, dwolla...) electronically without ANY POSSIBLE way to withdraw the transaction after the fact.



The actual other person on the other side of the trade is abstracted away, since I don't know or care about her, only about the offer that is put on the distributed exchange. https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.

https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.

Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf

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LegendaryActivity: 1227Merit: 1000 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 22, 2013, 12:36:06 PM

Last edit: November 22, 2013, 12:51:10 PM by flix #18

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326233



It attempts to resolve disputes over bitcoin seller denying having received funds and refusing to release escrow... but it is no way close enough to what we are aiming for.. it still requires a trusted third party for the escrow, it still relies on bank wires and other slow payment methods.. transactions are still not automatic.. This looks interesting... PaystyIt attempts to resolve disputes over bitcoin seller denying having received funds and refusing to release escrow... but it is no way close enough to what we are aiming for.. it still requires a trusted third party for the escrow, it still relies on bank wires and other slow payment methods.. transactions are still not automatic..

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Sr. MemberActivity: 384Merit: 251 Re: [BOUNTY] P2P EXCHANGE November 30, 2013, 05:32:55 PM #19 The 'trustless' requirement for a cryptocoin<->cryptocoin exchange seems to be the show stopper

because it would probably require a hardfork in one of the coins.



What if the exchange does require trust but

-makes it easy to split orders into reasonably small parts

-is really just an user friendly piece of software so everyone can set up an exchange (making it p2p)

-records all trades in the blockchains so the exchanges could earn trust over time

This would still be an improvement over the current state of things.

