Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani said Thursday that he believed President Donald Trump would perjure himself in a sit-down interview with special counsel Robert Mueller, and said that was the reason he was against such an interview.

It wasn’t the first time Giuliani accused Mueller of trying to “trap” Trump into perjuring himself, but the attorney was more explicit than usual in discussing the specific lie he said Trump would be accused of telling.

Mueller, Giuliani told Fox News’ Sean Hannity, “knows the answers to every question that he wants to ask.”

“He’s going to ask him, ‘Did you tell Comey to go easy on Flynn?’ The President is going to say ‘No I didn’t.’”

The former New York City mayor continued: “Hey, Bob, you know it. Why do you want to get him under oath? You think we’re fools? You want to get him under oath because you want to trap him into perjury. We’re not going to let you do that.”

Separately, Giuliani, a former U.S. attorney, said he’d “never been involved” in an investigation “on either side” that was “more illegitimate” than Mueller’s.

“He doesn’t need to ask a single question on obstruction,” he said. “He has all the answers. They’re not going to change. The President’s not going to change his testimony. So stop the nonsense. You are trying to trap him into perjury because you don’t have a case.”

Except there’s a big difference between lying to the American public, which does not carry legal consequences, and lying to federal agents, which does. Giuliani himself has said that lying to the press is perfectly fine.

“I think it’s going to lead to some very strict, very big reforms, just like Watergate,” Giuliani said toward the end of the interview Wednesday. “But a different kind of Watergate, it’s on the side of the investigators.”

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