Liquid`TLO Profile Blog Joined March 2010 Germany 754 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-24 14:52:53 #1 Ultralisk in Review by TLO





Hello everyone! In the light of the latest discussion about the new armor reducing ghost ability I'd like to share my opinion on the topic. In my opinion, Blizzard is trying to find a counter intuitive solution to a problem they unnecessarily created themselves. First I'd like to compare the old and new ultralisk with and without the armor reducing drone; I'll be using a maxed upgrade scenario for both the marine and the marauder





The Stats:





Marine vs Ultra:

HotS: 500hp / 3 damage = 167 hits

LotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hits

Lotv + Drone 500hp / 4 damage = 125 hits

Not having a drone available will reduce the efficiency of a marine to 25%





Marauder vs Ultra:

HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hits

LotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hits

Lotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hits

Not having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%





Game Design:

It strikes me as poor design that whether a fight will be won or lost by Terran will mostly depend on having an armor reducing drone. The major deciding factors should be micro, positioning, and lastly composition. Composition however, shouldn't be all or nothing based on a single ability tailored towards a single unit. There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window. It's too severe a punishment that in my opinion feels like another chore added to the game that you need to take care off; instead of rewarding good play, you get punished for poor play.



Lastly, the scenario in which Terran does have the drone doesn't look very different from HotS. (Marine: 167 to 125/Marauder: 25 to 23). I suppose it adds another timing window, but that's not what StarCraft II needs in my opinion, especially not one that makes you feel completely helpless in case you miss it as Terran.



Narration:

The new ghost ability introduces a new but also unique concept into the game. Armor reduction doesn't exist yet and will most likely be limited to this niche scenario. The game is already happening at lightning speed and it's difficult for casters to tell viewers about all the details that decide a fight. The anti-armor drone adds another, unnecessary complexity to fights. Positioning and army control is usually far more obvious than an ability that changes one of the most ''hidden'' stats of a unit.



Counter suggestion:

I'm purely ball parking here but I want to show a rough idea of where I think the ultralisk should be going in LotV. I believe we're trying to achieve a more dynamic game that is trying to move away from deathball a-moving towards smaller skirmishes and multiple battlefields, so here's my idea:



The 2/3 Ultralisk

HP: 500 -> 335



Attack: 35(+3) -> 25(+3)



Armor: 1+3+2 = 6



Minerals: 300 -> 200



Gas: 200 -> 125



Supply: 6 -> 4



Decrease size to 2/3



Reduce creep modifier from 1,3 -> 1,15



Improve off creep speed by 5% from 2,9531 to 3,1



New On creep speed from: 3,83903 -> 3,396065



Decrease damage point from 0.3332 to 0.167





Ultralisks tend to over-perform on creep and do poorly off creep, so I'd like to address this issue by making them slower on and faster off creep. Decreasing the damage point for ultralisks would also be beneficial to make them more reactive and micro friendly.



I don't believe the new LotV ultralisk is a very fun unit. So instead I'd like to see Blizzard try out a smaller version of the ultralisk. It's slightly faster off creep and slower on creep than before. This might allow Zerg to use ultralisks in several locations and in combination with zergling hit-squads to give late game harass some more punch while making ultralisks less frustrating to control. It could provide the ultralisk with the buff it deserves while not improving it in direct confrontation in which it excels already.





Sidenote:

As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg.

Thanks for reading!





Regards,



Dario



HotS: 500hp / 3 damage = 167 hitsLotV: 500hp / 1 damage = 500 hitsLotv + Drone 500hp / 4 damage = 125 hitsNot having a drone available will reduce the efficiency of a marine to 25%Marauder vs Ultra:HotS: 500hp / 20 damage = 25 hitsLotV: 500hp / 10 damage = 50 hitsLotv + Drone: 500hp / 16 damage = 32 hitsNot having a drone available will the reduce efficiency of a marauder to 62.5%It strikes me as poor design that whether a fight will be won or lost by Terran will mostly depend on having an armor reducing drone. The major deciding factors should be micro, positioning, and lastly composition. Composition however, shouldn't be all or nothing based on a single ability tailored towards a single unit. There's not any smart decisions to be made, it's just getting a ghost in time or not. It's incredibly frustrating and anti-fun having to deal with an almost indestructible unit because you missed your window. It's too severe a punishment that in my opinion feels like another chore added to the game that you need to take care off; instead of rewarding good play, you get punished for poor play.Lastly, the scenario in which Terran does have the drone doesn't look very different from HotS. (Marine: 167 to 125/Marauder: 25 to 23). I suppose it adds another timing window, but that's not what StarCraft II needs in my opinion, especially not one that makes you feel completely helpless in case you miss it as Terran.The new ghost ability introduces a new but also unique concept into the game. Armor reduction doesn't exist yet and will most likely be limited to this niche scenario. The game is already happening at lightning speed and it's difficult for casters to tell viewers about all the details that decide a fight. The anti-armor drone adds another, unnecessary complexity to fights. Positioning and army control is usually far more obvious than an ability that changes one of the most ''hidden'' stats of a unit.I'm purely ball parking here but I want to show a rough idea of where I think the ultralisk should be going in LotV. I believe we're trying to achieve a more dynamic game that is trying to move away from deathball a-moving towards smaller skirmishes and multiple battlefields, so here's my idea:Ultralisks tend to over-perform on creep and do poorly off creep, so I'd like to address this issue by making them slower on and faster off creep. Decreasing the damage point for ultralisks would also be beneficial to make them more reactive and micro friendly.I don't believe the new LotV ultralisk is a very fun unit. So instead I'd like to see Blizzard try out a smaller version of the ultralisk. It's slightly faster off creep and slower on creep than before. This might allow Zerg to use ultralisks in several locations and in combination with zergling hit-squads to give late game harass some more punch while making ultralisks less frustrating to control. It could provide the ultralisk with the buff it deserves while not improving it in direct confrontation in which it excels already.As for the Ghost, just a random thought. How about instead the drone, give them a 100 or 125 energy blinding grenade that can temporarily disable a detector. Cause you know, we haven't seen enough Nukes since I switched to Zerg.Thanks for reading!Regards,Dario Team Liquid alea iacta est

Espers Profile Joined August 2009 United Kingdom 604 Posts #2 agreed. a cheaper, faster, less bulky ultralisk is the way to go.

Qwyn Profile Blog Joined December 2010 United States 2772 Posts #3 I have long, long wanted an ultralisk with those stats.



Thanks for the writeup, TLO's assessment of the new ghost ability feels spot on. Just feels like a bandaid fix. "Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0

Hider Profile Blog Joined May 2010 Denmark 8554 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-24 15:23:52 #4 I agree with the analysis (as most others do), but I am not sure you really need that many other changes (like changing HP). I think all it needs is higher off creep movement speed and lower model size (from its HOTS state). Innovation was a better player in 2013 than Byun in 2016.

Athenau Profile Joined March 2015 364 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-23 23:20:48 #5 Hmm, where are those Marauder numbers coming from?



LotV Marauder with +3 upgrades = 2x(5+5+3 - 8) = 10 damage, not 16.



For what it's worth, I agree with the overall analysis.

banjoetheredskin Profile Blog Joined November 2012 United States 743 Posts #6 With the decreased size, I'm assuming that also means you want to get rid of the massive tag? Or leave it because it should still be able to crush force fields? Writer #1 CJ fan | http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/508947-wcs-dreamhack-austin-interviews

Pontius Pirate Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United States 1556 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-23 23:42:00 #7 It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes. The Ghost ability is way too specific in this instance, yes. But it could be altered to become a positional tool in itself and add much to the game.



Change the effect from reducing armor by 3 to just giving a flat buff to all attacks hitting the targeted unit by 3, and it can gain use against units such as Hellbats, Archons, Queens, and Mutalisks, which are all units that could conceivably be involved in engagements before their armor reaches 3. Protoss units in general have a tendency of engaging during the Ghost phase of TvP before their shields have reached 3 armor. Increase the duration to about 30 seconds, and the drone would also need some more HP in order to survive long enough to make a difference in a long, back and forth fight. At this point in time, you've created something resembling an offensive PDD, in that it helps you DPS down high priority targets within a certain area. Yes, this slightly treads on the toes of the Liberator, but it's a bit quicker and used as part of a different sort of composition, one that requires additional units to make the most of the opportunities the drone provides.



Needless to say, it should not be out of the question to test out a 7 armor Ultralisk, since the 8 armor Ultralisk is proving to cause some extremely hard-counter oriented fights. "I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13355 Posts #8 So he basically just said what everyone one else is also saying.

INnoVation

ZergLingShepherd1 Profile Joined June 2015 404 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-23 23:47:57 #9 I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.



Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?



I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.



Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.



If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.







"The Fractured but Whole"

TheWinks Profile Joined July 2011 United States 572 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-23 23:50:32 #10 On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote:

It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.

This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier? This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13355 Posts #11 On June 24 2015 08:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:

I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.



Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?



I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.



Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.



If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.





pls we both know this argument is bullshit.

In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again. pls we both know this argument is bullshit.In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again. INnoVation

Pontius Pirate Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United States 1556 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-24 00:02:34 #12 On June 24 2015 08:50 TheWinks wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote:

It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.

This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier? This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?

Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strongly agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work. Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strongly agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work. "I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream

TheWinks Profile Joined July 2011 United States 572 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-23 23:57:17 #13 On June 24 2015 08:54 Pontius Pirate wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 24 2015 08:50 TheWinks wrote:

On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote:

It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.

This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier? This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?

Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work. Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work.

Do HotS ultras add to the power of the zerg army? I'd argue yes, it's a net power increase. That's why you see them built. I don't think buffing them for the sake of buffing them is a good idea unless you're going to restructure the lategame on both sides. With the nerfed marauder they were already significantly stronger in Legacy to the point where it might have been a balance problem with 6 armor instead of 8! Do HotS ultras add to the power of the zerg army? I'd argue yes, it's a net power increase. That's why you see them built. I don't think buffing them for the sake of buffing them is a good idea unless you're going to restructure the lategame on both sides. With the nerfed marauder they were already significantly stronger in Legacy to the point where it might have been a balance problem with 6 armor instead of 8!

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13355 Posts #14 On June 24 2015 08:54 Pontius Pirate wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 24 2015 08:50 TheWinks wrote:

On June 24 2015 08:40 Pontius Pirate wrote:

It feels weird to disagree with TLO, but I'd much rather see the emphasis continue to be placed on making the Ultralisk an extremely beefy, yet somewhat unwieldy unit, and one that performs significantly better if you can engage in open terrain, rather than chokes.

This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier? This is already true of the HotS ultra. Why does it need to be stronger and beefier?

Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work. Because it doesn't function properly in said role with its HotS stats, particularly against Terran bio, because Marauders tear through them too fast. Whereas in LotV, Marauders do a more reasonable amount to them, but Marines do so little that they're almost worthless. I strong agree with their philosophy behind the change, I just think that the current numbers and counterplay need more work.

That's not true. ultras often look bad in tvz because they are such a huge investment that most players who tech to them to early can't afford much support for them and alone they die to marauders.

If a zerg manages to stabilize on hive and 3/3 with ultras and infestors + a big ling bane army it becomes extremely hard to win for terran. Buff ultras any more and zvt lategame will be a freewin. That's not true. ultras often look bad in tvz because they are such a huge investment that most players who tech to them to early can't afford much support for them and alone they die to marauders.If a zerg manages to stabilize on hive and 3/3 with ultras and infestors + a big ling bane army it becomes extremely hard to win for terran. Buff ultras any more and zvt lategame will be a freewin. INnoVation

FrostedMiniWheats Profile Joined August 2010 United States 30729 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-24 00:05:09 #15 Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.



I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive ability to compensate rather than just adjust the stats. NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever

Charoisaur Profile Joined August 2014 Germany 13355 Posts #16 On June 24 2015 09:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.



I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive effect to compensate.

passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard! passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard! INnoVation

Cascade Profile Blog Joined March 2006 Australia 5405 Posts #17 Thanks for posting. I agree that the ghost ability feels forced and artificial. LIke, they made this change to the ultra for who knows what reasons, then they realise the change is too powerful, so they introduce a new ability that literally reverts the buff they gave the ultra. I mean... Just revert both changes at that point, and everyone will be happy? However, I don't quite see the point of your counter proposal either. :/



So the purpose of the 2/3 ultra is to make it smaller so that it will be easier to fit them in for harass? But at the same time they do less damage, so they won't do more damage per surface area. I don't understand how decreasing all values is supposed achieves less deathballs and more harass. Do you mean that it'll be easier for the ultra to reach the terran bases because they are smaller, but in larger numbers?



Be aware that decreasing the creep bonus reduced the defenders advantage for both sides (harder for zerg to defend with slower ultras on creep, harder to defend for terran with faster ultras off creep), making the matchup more volatile. I can see how faster off creep makes it easier to harass, but as a melee unit, it also makes it much stronger in a straight up fight.

ZergLingShepherd1 Profile Joined June 2015 404 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-24 00:09:38 #18 On June 24 2015 08:52 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 24 2015 08:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:

I honestly dont like TLO idea and i disagree with him, mainly because the new ultra that has better micro would still be shut down by marauders and marines just like HotS. Ultras melt so fast.



Also why would anyone use this new Ultralisk with those stats instead of using Lurkers ?



I like the ghost ability its very good against Immortals and Ultras, also for once it forces the Terran to finally get a tier 3 bio unit instead of spamming MMM against Ultralisks.



Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a fun balanced match.



If i were to give Ultralisk something its the tower ability, also fix his derpy pathing and increase its speed off creep and make it slower on creep.





pls we both know this argument is bullshit.

In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again. pls we both know this argument is bullshit.In current tvz it's marine marauder medivac mine thor vs ling bane muta ultra (infestor). Please count how many tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units both races use and then speak again.



Its not BS, not all matches are like that.



Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a real thing, play more in the beta if you didnt got to see that or watch more tournaments.



Also most openers are medivacs/tanks and zerg forced into 2 base muta, and some people are still going turtle mech and then change into mass cyclone/hellions/vikings cuz its very hard to deal with that in late game.

Its not BS, not all matches are like that.Ultralisk/Corrupters/Ling/Bling vs Liberator/Ghost/Marine/Medivac is a real thing, play more in the beta if you didnt got to see that or watch more tournaments.Also most openers are medivacs/tanks and zerg forced into 2 base muta, and some people are still going turtle mech and then change into mass cyclone/hellions/vikings cuz its very hard to deal with that in late game. "The Fractured but Whole"

Pontius Pirate Profile Blog Joined August 2013 United States 1556 Posts #19 On June 24 2015 09:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.



I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive ability to compensate rather than just adjust the stats.

What was the one that never went into a live build, but made them step over Zerglings and Banelings and block all splash damage to those units that they walked over? Was that "monarch plating"? What was the one that never went into a live build, but made them step over Zerglings and Banelings and block all splash damage to those units that they walked over? Was that "monarch plating"? "I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream

ZergLingShepherd1 Profile Joined June 2015 404 Posts Last Edited: 2015-06-24 00:17:09 #20 On June 24 2015 09:05 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 24 2015 09:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Keep these coming, it's always nice to hear pro perspective on LotV. Thank you TLO.



I like the idea, but just about anything sounds better than lazily giving the ultralisk 8 armor. Personally, I'd like to see them revert the ultralisk to its HotS form but give it some sort of new passive effect to compensate.

passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard! passive effect? why not an active ability? Maybe something like a spell you have to activate and then your ultras do 10% more damage for 5 seconds. I should work for blizzard!



There was burrow charge, it was fun and good to use but Terran with Protoss complained and it got removed.

So yeah you guys dont like things no matter what mostly. There was burrow charge, it was fun and good to use but Terran with Protoss complained and it got removed.So yeah you guys dont like things no matter what mostly. "The Fractured but Whole"

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All