<otoburb> MolokoDesk: yeah i think that was addressed earlier; basically, still trying to gather more support before adding more details; so far it seems to be doing it's purpose

<tinaivanova> well we all need to come together and work out a plan.. its not very conventional because 90% of the people are already going the conventional route - which is suing the gox company

<RogerVer> You guys should know that earlier this week I heard Mark was already talking with the bankruptcy lawyers to file whatever legal paperwork is required for a bankruptcy

<tinaivanova> jayez: exactly

<RogerVer> So there isn't much time if something is going to be done

<MistaG> tinaivanova: Governments are corrupt. And people are generally jerks. Those are two very large hurdles to overcome. Pythagoras said, "So long as free men require laws, they are not fit for freedom." Stated somewhat differently by Thoreau, "I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto, — "That government is best which governs least";(1) and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally

<MolokoDesk> where do the email addresses go to?

<otoburb> MolokoDesk: in anarchystar's database

<tinaivanova> MistaG: cannot escape human nature

<jayez> RogerVer can you assist us in speeding up the process and getting his attention?

<MolokoDesk> ok. thanks. good enough.

<myrond> RogerVer: we are trying....

<tinaivanova> MistaG: i agree, that is why there are governments

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<RogerVer> I suspect he has already looked at the letter that was posted on Reddit.

<tinaivanova> is RogerVer the real RogerVer

<MistaG> It's not my writing, but I always found the thought fascinating.

<anarchystar> RogerVer: do you think mark is willing to release the customer list to you (emails hashed, so we can do 1 way verification), with the balances plain text? - he can leave it in your hands for extra trust, and you can run it against our database every day

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: does he browse reddit often, i thought he had more things to do

<RogerVer> I suppose we need to have a firm plan of exactly what we want from Mark

<MistaG> RogerVer: Agreed.

<xiando> Hi guys I've got some IOUs I'd like to sell you. I sell xiandoIOUs for $100. You'll get paid $80 back in 3 months. I have the impression you all will find my deal very attractive. Any takers?

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<tinaivanova> RogerVer: and there needs to be 90% of people agreeing on it that have funds on gox

<RogerVer> This will be hard....

<anarchystar> i think were past salvaging that company tbh

<Hrumph> tinaivanova: i heard it was more liky 75%

<tinaivanova> Hrumph haha, yeah 75% is fine too

<myrond> RogerVer: I want to see from Mark: Gox succeed, Gox become solvent, debt-for-equity arrangement, Gox to continue

<anarchystar> starting a new cooperative exchange with profit sharing to former debtors seems the only viable solution

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<tinaivanova> Hrumph even 20% is okay

<MolokoDesk> there may be constraints on what MtGox can do. They have other shareholders besides MK.

and they're in Japan.

<tinaivanova> MolokoDesk: he is the huge majority

MolokoDesk: he makes the decisions if its 88%

<MolokoDesk> ok. I don't have an account at gox so I'm not going to say much here.

<RogerVer> Last I heard, (about a year ago) there are only two share holders

<tinaivanova> xiando: i still rather get 50%

<Aquent> Have you been speaking to Mark Roger?

<jayez> If it's of any assistance, I have a recently established corporation in japan (that was created for arbitraging)

<RogerVer> I haven't heard anything from Mark since Tuesday

<MistaG> RogerVer: So what do you see as the first thing to do if this has any chance?

<myrond> RogerVer: things have progressed since that initial letter went out. Bankruptcy/lawsuits are not the only answer

<Aquent> this Tuesday?

<RogerVer> 4 days ago Japan time

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: if he filed for bankruptcy is pretty much over

<bitinstant> Hey Rog

<Aquent> did he tell you he was filing for bankruptcy?

<bitinstant> Didn tknow you an IRC guy

<RogerVer> yes

<Aquent> lol

and why you telling us?

--- MistaG gives channel operator status to RogerVer

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: shareholders will get the money and use it to pay lawyers ,and in the end there will be nothing to pay out with, the most that could happen is mark and them going to jail

<bitinstant> Rog, this room has been very helpful

We think we may have tracked down many of the coins

<myrond> There are several stages of bankruptcy... first stage is just protection against creditors to give breathing room to figure things out

<RogerVer> That is the best news yet if true

<bitinstant> Ill send you the google doc once its finished

<Muis> are there any estimates of the total BTC liabilties of Gox?

<bitinstant> working on it with a few people, and we have a blockchain analyst on it now

<myrond> so not necessarily the end

<bitinstant> dot the t's and cross the i's

<MistaG> Knowing the true losses will help give a real picture of what we would be getting ourselves into.

<RogerVer> On Tuesday Mark told me via text message: Currently filing for bankruptcy and will update based on that

<tinaivanova> is bitinstant charlie shrem

<bitinstant> tinaivanova, one and only

<jutajata> yes it is Charlie

<MistaG> RogerVer: Well that would be a problem.

<Aquent> Roger why would Mark tell you that?

<anarchystar> mark and roger are close

<MistaG> RogerVer: Is there any way for it to be rescinded?

<Aquent> why wouldnt Mark make it public

<jutajata> that's sad

<RogerVer> Because I told him he needs to confirm the leaked documents ASAP

that was his reply

<maz0> Aquent public like everything else hes made public in this whole saga of screw ups?

<RogerVer> I don't know much/anything about japanese bankruptcy law

<MistaG> Ashame our lawyer friend Lao isn't available right now.

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: why would japanese gov agencies say they have no juristiction over bitcoin then?

--- MistaG gives channel operator status to Lao_Ban_

<jayez> http://www.bingham.com/Publications/Files/2012/02/A-Practical-Guide-to-Japanese-Insolvency-Procedures

<maz0> if he has filed for bankruptcy then its game over

<MistaG> maz0: Not entirely.

maz0: If he can nullify the document, we might have a chance still.

<Aquent> Roger have you got a cat picture to prove its you?

<MistaG> maz0: Or let him declare bankruptcy but hand over all the assets to us.

<RogerVer> There are a LOT of Japanese people who lost a lot of Bitcoin in Mtgox

<tinaivanova> :D

<chrono000> i was really under the impression mark was under a gag order...

<zoinky> RogerVer == RogerVer?

<jayez> yes

<bitinstant> speculation

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<RogerVer> I don't own a cat, but I can PGP sign something with the PGP key from rogerver.com if people would like

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<Aquent> or just tweet that mark told you he is filing for bankruptcy

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<bitinstant> Roger if its you

<rfish2> RogerVer is here....

<tinaivanova> :D

<bitinstant> Fill in the blank

___Times

<rfish2> so is Schrem.....

<Aquent> lol shrem with the puzzles

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<tinaivanova> so is rfish2

<jayez> rfish2, please verify that you are indeed rfish2

<Aquent> I'm stil waiting, yeah yeah yeah

<rfish2> lol

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<maz0> filing for bankruptcy still doesnt dismiss the government seizure theory either does it?

<chrono000> did he fill in the blank or not...

<Aquent> of course not

why would Roger say something like that

on here

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<chrono000> when i here bankruptcy that doesnt sound good for the people with btc??? no?

<maz0> nope

<RogerVer> Golden Times

I just sent the tweet

<bitinstant> ITS HIM

<chrono000> lol..

<Muis> lol

<chrono000> well well

<myrond> chrono000: bankruptcy doesn't mean liquidation

chrono000: first stage just means some breathing room for a bit

<bitinstant> Bonus question

<Aquent> link lol

<MistaG> Thanks Roger for doing that.

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<bitinstant> What did Amir Taaki break in Austria ?

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<chrono000> myrond: im just getting worried. i thought this blockchain finding was a big deal...

<maz0> yes thanks RogerVer

<MistaG> Alright so brass tacks.

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<MistaG> Is anyone talking with Mark right now?

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<RogerVer> The segway

<jayez> Okay so RogerVer bitinstant what's our next step in order to make this a reality BEFORE it's too late.

<bitinstant> Def Roger

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<RogerVer> I already sent the tweet from @rogerkver, so it is me

<ralphtheninja> evening

<bitinstant> Last I spoke to Mark wa syesterday

*was yesterdday

<Aquent> yes, hi

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<bitinstant> but nothing related

<Aquent> you bring shokcing news

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<MistaG> Everyone please keep everything here for the time being.

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<bitinstant> 07:20 <bitinstant> Hey

16:10 <MagicalTux> hi

<Aquent> because we found around 220k belonging to gox

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<Aquent> or so we think

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<owowo> 220k btc i would assume#?

<MistaG> bitinstant: Well at least he's responding.

<jayez> MistaG that's not likely going to happen

<Aquent> yes

<CBit> Did he lose the private key?

<chrono000> yeh can we please talk about this massive gox bitcoin on the chain...

<Muis> Aquent: There is no proof that 220k belongs to Gox

<Aquent> he seems to have lost his head, how does he bring a 100k per month business into bankruptcy

<myrond> chrono000: that is just speculation; not sure if it really solves anything

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<MistaG> Lets break it down ...

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<tinaivanova> RogerVer: how many goxbtc did you buy before the whole thing happened

<RogerVer> You guys understand that according to Gox, 500K BTC of customer funds are missing, and they only have 2K BTC?

<chrono000> everything else feels like speculations too...

<MistaG> 1. Some people think we can solve this by recovering the funds in some manner (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7310881) or because they are still available

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<maz0> Aquent external forces, we just dont know. if your cold wallet was siezed then theres a run on bitcoin withdrawls, your fucked (speculation)

<MistaG> 2. Some people feel funds were actually stolen (then in this case the mtgox initiative is a possible solution)

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: but what does it mean "missing

<zoinky> RogerVer, thats been declared a fact?

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: but what does it mean "missing""?

<MistaG> 3. Some other conspiracy where the funds are never accessible (again this initiative is probably the only solution where everyone wins)

<Aquent> he said temporarily inaccessable

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<RogerVer> It is a claim by the guys at MTGOX

It is hard to know what is actually the truth over there

<Aquent> roger you saw their books

<zoinky> for real..

<MistaG> So I think pressing forward with trying to hand over all the assets to the customers of the exchange to make it a cooperative is probably our best bet.

<tinaivanova> if they ar emissing its obviously fraud

<Aquent> only a few months ago

<Kikker> What is the consensus about the leaked documents? 100% correct?

<myrond> RogerVer: If only 2K BTC left, I see a pretty big haircut :P

<Aquent> did they have the btc back then?

<RogerVer> I never saw their books, I only know what they told me

<tinaivanova> MistaG: iu agree ,but RogerVer and bitinstant are the only people that could talk to mark and convince him to read the reddit post and come talk to us

<RogerVer> 7 months ago when I made the video, I saw their bank fiat balances

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: mark can't possibly be this stupid

<Aquent> who is they?

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<RogerVer> and letters from the bank

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: to let this go to court

<MistaG> RogerVer: Can you try to get Mark on the horn and see what can be negotiated to push this forward?

<Tiraspol> RogerVer: so what do you think actually happened to the funds? Are they temporarily locked? it's just doesn't seem mathematically possible that 744,000 coins just "vanished" from TM....

<myrond> RogerVer: which isn't the end of the world, if a haircut was agreed too the exchange would go back to solvency

<jayez> tinaivanova but we need to have a more detailed plan before we can do any convincing

<Muis> Aquent: That 550k transaction is never prooved to be Gox's, the Gox proof was 434343.43434 BTC not 550

<bitinstant> guys 1 at a time

<Aquent> so can you say how many dollars they had back then?

<bitinstant> he only has 2 hands to type

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<Aquent> it is proved Muis

<bitinstant> lol

<tinaivanova> jayez: i think even giving us the rgeen light on any of our initial ideas would be a start ,because time is of the essense

<MistaG> I don't want to have to unvoice everyone.

<Muis> Aquent: No it isnt? Even GMaxwell says it isnt

<tinaivanova> jayez: and irc is not a public forum ,he cant be sued for saying something on irc ,am i wrong?

<Aquent> null is being ...

<kyledrake> Coinpunk in the house. Hi guys.

<RogerVer> around $100M USD

<Aquent> read my reply to his comment

<maz0> bitinstant i think this is the closest thing to interviewing karpeles right now

<bitinstant> kyledrake, hey!

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<bitinstant> wow, got a nice group of people here

<Aquent> 100M made you think they have money to cover the balances?

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<kyledrake> Hi :)

<Tiraspol> this whole situation is such a clusterfuck

<dustcoin_> 100M would cover their fiat balances if the leaked document is correct

<Tiraspol> bitinstant: who is leaking documents to that two-bit-idiot?

<RogerVer> Liquidity != Solvency

<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: 100m is not that much

<MistaG> RogerVer: Exactly.

<bitinstant> tiraspol, which one ?

He wrote who in his new post

<Tiraspol> bitinstant: ah

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<RogerVer> I never said gox was solvent, I simply said that the bank delays were not caused by a lack of liquidity. Even in hindsight today, I still think that was true.

<rfish2> saying liquidity is intentionally misleading

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<zoinky> who controls bitinstant irc name/

<myrond> RogerVer: Haircut's + debt-to-equity could equal solvency

<CBit> bitstant: yup, came from Roger's tweet.

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<RogerVer> I only feel bad that the video led more people to trust mtgox and lose money because of it, but everything in the video was factually true

<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: if they function as a fractional reserve with different senior management for a few years they will surely be able to make 100m per year in profits

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<rfish2> RogerVer: Did you look at his cold storage

<dudesir> I don't think Roger

<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: so one year could cover the fiat balances, and the bitcoins could just remain locked or trading at a lower price

<rfish2> RogerVer: Or just the bank statements?

<dudesir> s video 7 months ago matters

<RogerVer> I only looked at fiat. there were ZERO BTC withdrawal problems at that time.

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<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: just like it was the last few weeks

<CBit> zoinky: Charlie Shrem?

<Aquent> you ever looked at their cold storage?

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: we should stop talking about the past until theres no way to salvage this

RogerVer: after that we'll talk about the past.... for years

<zoinky> he stepped down from his position at bitinstant but still uses the handle? CBit

<Aquent> there is no way tina

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<Aquent> mark told him he filing for bankruptcy

<rfish2> RogerVer: How do you know there were zero bitcoin problems. Perhaps he was taking peoples cash and buying bitcoins with them

<kyledrake> Honestly, I don't think there's much you can do here. They're too big to fail, and there simply isn't enough money available to bail them out. If they were $50M in the hole, maybe, but nobody's going to spring $350M.

<bitinstant> I should probably create a new nick

<CBit> zoinky: here on irc yeah ^

<zoinky> ok just wondering

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<bitinstant> kyledrake, 33M is enough to pay people back 10% of their holdings and 5% equity

<RogerVer> * There were ZERO Bitcoin withdrawal problems from mtgox at that time.

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<darsie> hi

<xiando> Interesting how you'all seem to be forgetting that MtGox is also missing about half of the customer _fiat_

<tinaivanova> kyledrake: i think the exchange should continue working like it was

<Tiraspol> I wish we could just get Mark in this fucking channel and make him tell us WTF is going on

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<bitinstant> dididends can be paid back over 5-10 years

*dividends

<Aquent> its pretty weird of him to not be communicating at all

we all thought he was under gag

<albert> Tiraspol: gagged

<zewelor> RogerVer: i think mtgox btc withdraw problems was for a year at least

<CBit> Tiraspol: not if he's on a gag order

<binaryphile> RogerVer: bitinstant: thanks for your open discussions in recent days, it's helping shed what little light there is to be had

--- bovako is now known as bovako-fish

<Aquent> but if he insolvent then say it

<Tiraspol> CBit: yeah, I realize this

<Aquent> its not like we are not going to find out

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<maz0> the elephant in the room, still to be clarified is where is the several hundred thousand btc

<Muis> BitFloor continued to operate on such a basis, and it didnt work well at all

<bitinstant> Muis, thats because its 1 guy in NYC

MtGox is a team, and *appaantly* was making alot of money

<chrono000> sure seems like he is under a gag....

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<Tiraspol> bitinstant could it be possible that the U.S. is holding his cold storage hostage during "investigations" ?

<Muis> yes, but also because customers lost faith

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<voncrypto> Has anyone been looking at the cryptographic solvency proof solution here? This is something other exchanges could implement to avoid a Gox situation https://github.com/olalonde/blind-solvency-proof

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<LTCvictim_> Tiraspol : SR investigation certainly

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<Aquent> Roger were you one of the 3 bidders?

<kyledrake> bitinstant I'm sure somebody would ponder taking 5% at 33M over there, but I'm not sure I would.

<Kikker> Isn't the buying BTC back on Gox statement totally criminal?

<tinaivanova> bitinstant: RogerVer: kyledrake the reality is ,buying bitcoins is a risk, and they aren't fungible/interchangeable, the bitcoins on gox have a risk accounted in the price that is a different % risk on another exchange such as btc-e. third party risk. so the bid and ask can't be salvage, it will continue to be lower on gox than other exchanges. but we can and should salvage the fiat

<myrond> If haircuts and ownership deal happened exchange volume I can see a payback in value in possibly 8 to 10 years... I believe better than liquidation

<apocasparica> roger ver, who has the missing bitcoins? what do you think?

<RogerVer> No, I never offered to buy Mtgox, and I doubt there is anyone willing to do that when they realize who big the debt is. There is $20M USD and 500K BTC of customer money missing, and they only have 2K BTC in their account. No one would want to take that on.. It is too much

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<kyledrake> The argument for investing in Mt. Gox is essentially just the brand, and how much is that really worth at this point?

RogerVer exactly.

<Aquent> did they tell you that roger or you getting it from the draft?

<maz0> but if 500k of btc are not missing, but locked away....

<binaryphile> how much btc did mtgox earn in fees during the time since withdrawals were stopped?

<bitinstant> good point

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<jutajata> So you confirm these numbers?

Because Charlie said it found some of the Gox btx

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<Muis> RogerVer: you seem pretty convinced that the document contains the right numbers, is that because Mark ignored the question?

<bitinstant> *still working on it

<dustcoin_> binaryphile: a few million USD worth

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: kyledrake i don't think that's correct, full tilt had lost over 400 million $ as well, but they came back. everyone was equity angry

<bitinstant> This is a working theory and as such is highly speculative. We present our findings to you such for novelty and to add this information to the community conversation, the only real truth can come from MTGOX.

<zoinky> 500,000 lost funds? how! had to be bleeding coins for years

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: kyledrake i don't think that's correct, full tilt had lost over 400 million $ as well, but they came back. everyone was equally angry

<RogerVer> I saw it in the draft, and they told it to me. (both) 500K BTC missing

<Aquent> draft says 750k

<catswaskittens> mark confirmed it?

<binaryphile> dustcoin_: shouldn't they have been able to either take that in coin or convert to coin you think?

<bovako-fish> RogerVer: Who told you when?

<maz0> 'missing'

<mtgox513> @bitinstant can you disclose what you discussed with Mark at the weekend?

<maz0> so vague

<miaoux> RogerVer - how did they phrase 'missing' ?

<dustcoin_> binaryphile: half of their fees are in coin, yes

<maz0> miaoux like 'soonish'

<kyledrake> I mean, you could make your own exchange for way less than $33M. That's with an office in SF and money tx licenses in every state.

<miaoux> We're trying to link that somehow to the 'temporarily unavailable' in the IRC chat

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<binaryphile> just wondering if the math works out for their on-hand claim of a couple thousand coin

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<binaryphile> that could add up if it's only a few million dollars

<RogerVer> 250K missing belong to MTGOX, 500K missing belong to customers... they were all held int he same wallets.

<dustcoin_> binaryphile: fees should have been regularly segregated from the hot wallet... but this is gox we are talking about

<Aquent> do you mean to mark or gox from profits?

<miaoux> Did they give any indication of when they discovered the coins were missing?

<rfish2> bitinstant: Why did you say good news was coming on the weekend?

<bitinstant> see my answer on reddit

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<mtgox513> @RogerVer did they explain how they were "Missing" ?

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: what do you mean 250k belong to gox

<Stormeyes> @Rgerver: of the 500k coins missing how many were Marks/other staffs ? big % ?

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: belong to marc?

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<binaryphile> dustcoin_: i figure they discovered whatever was causing loss near the point of halting withdrawals, so presumably most fees afterward would be recoverable

<tinaivanova> Stormeyes: yeah i thought mark had over 200k btc

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<cobordism> see ^^ everyone is eager for answers. :)

<new299> RogerVer: what do you suggest be done? Seems like nothing much can be done...

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<Stormeyes> if his are in the 500k it might make the loss to \his customers'smaller

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<analogrithems> the part that doesn't add up though, if govt has a gag order on him, why throw bitcoin under the buss and tell everyone it's the bitcoin protocols fault not his. This contradicts an altruistic intention

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<Aquent> Roger are you aware of any lost wallets? As in Mark can't access them because of lost key or whatever

anarchystar analogrithems

<tinaivanova> new299: RogerVer you people really need to read up on the story of full tilt and pokerstars, they lost 400 million and got bought out and salvaged, it is exactly the same story, and it needs to go that way, even if we wait months for it

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<cobordism> analogrithems, yeah, there is a lot that doesn' t add up here

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<RogerVer> I want to help everyone, but I honestly think that with Mtgox owing customers 500K BTC, and only having 2K BTC, we are likely to get nothing.

<dustcoin_> fulltilt had a better brand, software, and IP (rush poker for example)

<analogrithems> +

<jutajata> DO you know how they lost it?

<RogerVer> Tinaivanova, loosing $400M is totally different than losing 500K BTC

<kyledrake> RogerVer seconded. It's done. Beyond repair.

<rfish2> RogerVer: I want to know how the hell you lose 500,000 BTC?

<kyledrake> I think they're going to have enough trouble staying out of court at this point.

<catswaskittens> rogerver: any details on how he lost that much coin?

<CBit> tinaivanova: how would this work with bitcoin though? If the price rises, there is no way anyone that takes over will be able to pay back in bitcoin. Maybe in fiat, but who decides at what rate? etc.

<McLovin123> RogerVer, when did you find out they didn't have it?

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: in what way? it's the same previous value, and they should start by reembursing people with fiat balances

<RogerVer> MTgox claims that someone was using the transaction malability exploit for years to steal coins, and they never noticed until they ran out of coins.

<jutajata> They are lost or were stolen?

<chrono000> yeah i want to know how the hell u loss that much any now one knows how

<dustcoin_> RogerVer: not really, I'm sure depositors would be okay being paid back in USD at market rate for their coins

<RogerVer> That is the claim as crazy as it sounds.

<mtgox513> That's the 244 million dollar question

<analogrithems> RogerVer: He really should turn site back on and disable trading so users can at least download their history for tax loss proof

<albert> rfish2: you lose a private key to your wallet

<MolokoDesk> there's a type of venture capitalist called a "turnaround artist" that specializes in saving distressed companies. If they could be assured that the customers weren't going to file a lot of lawsuits or a class action lawsuit it might make MtGox more attractive as an investment.

<tinaivanova> CBit: well the rate for bitcoin is going to be lower obviously , just look at bitcoinbuilder, thats the real rate

<bitinstant> RogerVer, see my skype please

<Aquent> Roger are you aware of any lost wallets that cant be accessed?

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<Muis> RogerVer: If 250k of Mark's personal holdings are missing, how can this be caused by maleability? They were never accesible that way?

<rfish2> albert: RogerVer is not saying that

<new299> RogerVer: overall this is positive for BTC as it gets mtgox out of the market

<analogrithems> killing the site feels like he's hiding evidence,

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: CBit: well the rate for bitcoin is going to be lower obviously , just look at bitcoinbuilder, thats the real rate, that is the price of a goxbtc

<rfish2> albert: He is saying malleability

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<MolokoDesk> an MtGox Customer's Association represented by someone already having a working relationship with MK might be credible.

<bitinstant> Luke-Jr, welcome

<dustcoin_> Muis: Mark said he help his personal holdings on gox

*held

<albert> rfish2: Gox is saying malleability, which would imply the coins were stolen, which would be pretty bad

<miaoux> RogerVer - It IS odd to you though that Mark has still not said anything? He approaches investors to try and bail out the company from it's liquidity issues, but continues to pay JPY + SEPA withdrawals, buy Gox.com (which can't have been cheap), and hint at the coins not being lost 'just yet'?

<CBit> tinaivanova: with news of a company paying back people's deposits, the price would certianly go up.

<Luke-Jr> malleability was just an excuse, ignore it

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<habadabadsuba> I've got a SEPA withdrawal on Tuesday

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: well the rate for bitcoin is going to be lower obviously , just look at bitcoinbuilder, thats the real rate, that is the price of a goxbtc

CBit: exactly.

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<CBit> making it more expensive to pay everyone back. :P

<MolokoDesk> What also would help is if MtGox starts demonstrating good faith.

<catswaskittens> rogerver: any credence to theories that some of the coins are locked up by the us gov?

<analogrithems> the reason I don't believe FBI is stopping him from saying anything is they don't really have jurisdiction to work international. That would be CIA, NSA & DHS

<apocasparica> RogerVer, who do you think is the new owner of the missing bitcoins? this could be an important inforamtion. or are there no suggestions?

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<Luke-Jr> catswaskittens: that sounds like nonsense to me

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: CBit the real price of a goxbtc is what the market says it is. so it's 8% of a realbtc

<RogerVer> can we slow the room down? I can't read everything

<Luke-Jr> apocasparica: you mean the thief?

<zoinky> miaoux all signs that can be looked at grasping at straws

<catcow> this room has like 50 new users in the last 30 mins

<xiando> RogerVer: Honestly, do you personally believe this "transaction malability so we lost the coins" story? just a yes/no on your guess (I personally don't but I do believe they lost them somehow)

<maz0> malleabillity is a cover up, completly infeasable

<Tiraspol> how the fuck does accounting NOT detect 500,00 BTC missing? this makes NO fucking sense

<Kikker> Over 2 years the average price was $13, so the coins cashed out netted just $10 million.

<Luke-Jr> Tiraspol: accounting is inherently automated

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<Luke-Jr> Tiraspol: automation, as with all software, is subject to bugs

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: CBit the price of a goxbtc was 13% 12 hours ago, so they really need 100m to cover fiat ,with withdrawal delays and considering the 13% of goxbtc ,it could be only another 50-100m they need to cover their goxbtc balance sheet

<CBit> tinaivanova: yes, but goxbtc do not exist. The new company taking over would have to buy from another exchange or privately.

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<Tiraspol> Luke-Jr: aren't there financial audits?

<McLovin123> RogerVer... okay, say they somehow didn't realize all their BTC disappeared. Why doesn't their fiat add up??

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<Luke-Jr> Tiraspol: the nature of the bugs that caused the theft in the first place, from what little we know about it, is very likely to have affected auditing too

<tinaivanova> CBit: well ,our proposition will be all about waiting it out ,its going to take some time until bitcoins can be transfered

<new299> RogerVer: so question is, if alll coins are probably lost what are we doing here? What is there to discuss?

<MolokoDesk> we may just have to wait for MtGox/MK to clarify things.

<rfish2> Luke-Jr: How does if affect auditing?

<dustcoin_> tinaivanova: all goxBTC can't be bought at a low price, as soon as someone commits to buying them all the price will rise

<tinaivanova> Lao_Ban_: have you read anything about a salvaging fractional reserve exchange

<Kikker> Over 2 years the average price was $13, so the coins cashed out netted just $10 million.

<Luke-Jr> rfish2: their wallet reported the full balance the whole time

<odin> Hey @RogerVer what kind of proof do you have? Or are you just speculating

<tinaivanova> Lao_Ban_: have you read anything about salvaging a fractional reserve exchange in the past?

<zoinky> got a text message he said

<McLovin123> If it truly was just a long-term theft of BItcoins, then the fiat balances should still be fine?

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<anarchystar> you can relay your questions through jayez

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<cobordism> If the coins were stolen, this does not explain the fiat balances not adding up. correct?

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<anarchystar> you can also message me your questions

i will paste them inhere

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<jayez> <new299> RogerVer: so question is, if alll coins are probably lost what are we doing here? What is there to discuss?

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<RogerVer> I don't know what is true or what isn't but the claim from mtgox so far is that they owe 500K BTC, and only have 2K BTC. (They are also missing around $20M) I had about 25K BTC of my own stuck in mtgox from the Bitcoinica mess, but at this point I don't hold out any hope that people will get back anything from mtgox.

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<RogerVer> For now, I think it may be more productive just to focus on other things and wait for MTgox to clarify what they plan to do

<jayez> <chrono000> roger: have u considered that mark isnt being 100% honest in some areas here. maybe a gag order or legal reasons.

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<Luke-Jr> RogerVer: while Bitcoinica owed you 25 kBTC, I don't think it's quite fair to attribute that full amount to MtGox since Bitcoinica lost so much of its money

<RogerVer> Maybe Mark is lying or under some sort of government duress, but I have no idea how we would prove that

<anarchystar> <12500 btc stuck in gox

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<RogerVer> Luke, agreed... I would likely have only gotten back 10K to 15K of the 25K, but that is still real money.

<anarchystar> McLovin123> RogerVer, personally, do you think there is a piece of the puzzle we are missing?

<rfish2> Question for LukeJr. How would malleability affect their internal account and would the website blockchain.info have also screwed the accounting had the double checked with that site?

<RogerVer> Mark is the one with the answers of what happened.

All of us are just speculating at this point

<jayez> <MolokoDesk> What would be constructive to do together as customers and stakeholders to get an outcome from this that we would want?

<anarchystar> cobordism> ok, here is a question for mtgox-statement. 1) If the coins were stolen, then the fiat balances should still be fine. why aren't they? 2) mtgox is not communicating for whatever reason ... when do you think we might finally get some real information?

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<Luke-Jr> rfish2: Malleability is one possible way to exploit their wallet, by making it think transactions "failed" which had not. However, Bitcoin transactions never truly fail until they are double-spent, so the whole notion there was buggy regardless of malleability, and could be exploited without malleability.

<anarchystar> i will answer 2) mark said within 24 hours there will be a statement

so i expect an update tomorrow

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<Luke-Jr> rfish2: blockchain.info would not have been affected, but they don't have the ability to account for third-party wallets at all

(so MtGox would have had to share information with them, that they have not shared with anyone so far AFAIK)

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<anarchystar> dustcoin_> anarchystar: where did mark said there would be a statement within 24hrs?

he told me

<RogerVer> sorry everyone, I need to do some other work now, but I will do my best to reply to emails. roger@memorydealers.com (PGP key is the OLDEST one on the key servers, I don't know who made the newer ones)

<Luke-Jr> I definitely do think we should all be demanding more transparency from our exchanges, so third-party websites can do auditing like this.

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<Luke-Jr> RogerVer: key dates can be faked!

<RogerVer> the PGP key is also the one listed on rogerver.com

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<Lao_Ban_> hi all

just waking up now

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<anarchystar> <rfish2> Luke-Jr: Why don't they have the ability? All they have to do is cross reference the public keys on blockchain.info with their own internal keys

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<MistaG> Lao_Ban_: Talk to me in private.

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<Luke-Jr> anarchystar: well, MtGox could have used bc.i or even bitcoind to double-check their existing accounting, sure

rfish2*

<anarchystar> lisper29> hi, roughly what time did he say 24 hours at, please?

10 hours ago

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<Luke-Jr> but with as overloaded as Mark was, I don't think he had time to setup a second set of auditing scripts

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<usaoscoin> 8am japan time now

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<Luke-Jr> he couldn't even keep up with MtGox's immediate needs really

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<Luke-Jr> (hindsight is of course 20/20, and I'm sure he regrets not making it a priority)

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<anarchystar> Kikker> How much profit could Mark have taken out of Gox over the past two years?

he recently said that all his profits were in gox..

i dont know if its true

McLovin123> do you have any indication on if the statement will begin to explain things or just be another blank stalling statement?

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<anarchystar> <RogerVer> On Tuesday Mark told me via text message: Currently filing for bankruptcy and will update based on that

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<Luke-Jr> it sounds likely. if you put all of your time into making a as-secure-as-possible bank, would you keep much money *outside* it? no..

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<Luke-Jr> wait, Roger Ver has to file bankruptcy? :o

how did that happen?

<anarchystar> no :)

<Luke-Jr> oh

I misread that epicly

:<

<anarchystar> :D

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<anarchystar> Tiraspol> question: why did all the websites like coinbase, bttchina, blockchain, issue the same exact statement, at the same exact time? what did they know beforehand that we didnt?

KuDeTa> so is Roger confirming bankruptcy?

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<anarchystar> thats what roger said in this channel half an hour ago.. i just re-pasted it

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<Lao_Ban_> Just read up on everything, damn why am I always out when Roger gets here? lol

anarchystar: they def knew something

<MistaG> Lao_Ban_: Check your messages

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<anarchystar> i think thats it.. roger is gone so i will unmute

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<KuDeTa> thanks

<maz0> annnd we're back

<jutajata> okay so this means that MtGox never did a balance check, isn't that a crime?

<Kikker2> How much profit could Mark have taken out of Gox over the past two years?

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<Tiraspol> this is so screwed up...

<afjfzvhvg> g

<polasp> Are we expecting an announcement in 24hours?

<maz0> yes

<anarchystar> while you are here, please fill out this form http://www.mtgoxrecovery.com/

also if you are interested, we are working on this http://projectgox.wordpress.com/

<Luke-Jr> jutajata: they did balance checks. balances came back full

<Aquent> damn

<tolega1> sorry I just got in. Bankrupcy announcement in 24 hours?

<usaoscoin> anarchystar: pm

<Luke-Jr> probably did*

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<Aquent> with those 200k btc I was hoping it was just a gag order

<KuDeTa> RogerVer: are you around. Confirming bankruptcy is the end (for me, at least), so can you please give us the exact verbage?

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<maxswagwow> the answer isnt to jail mark karples, the answer is to come together as a comunity and find a way to build wealth to compensate for mtgox's dumbness

<rng29a> anarchystar, who runs this site? there's no contact or whois

<tinaivanova> GUYS.

<afjfzvhvg> don't blame only mark. There are much more good known people involved. ...that's all I will day. You will see it in the comming days maybe even weeks....

<maxswagwow> 100% better than a govt or regulation

<tinaivanova> This is a channel for something else

<dustcoin_> bitcoinbuilder guy is calling mtgoxrecovery.com a scam

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<yesminister> is this channel logged somewhere?

<jutajata> +Luke-Jr but how if their account was being leeked so heavily?

<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: link

<Luke-Jr> jutajata: what little we know about the exploit, suggests it is likely to have confused their accounting as well

<dustcoin_> tinaivanova: https://twitter.com/btcbldr/status/439155552875450369

<Tiraspol> maxswagwow: agreed

<polasp> So mark karpeles is going to come out and announce bankruptcy in the next 24 hours

<Luke-Jr> jutajata: so the wallet thought it had XXXkBTC available the whole time

<flibbr-dev> God I hope there is good news to come from this. My life savings in gox.

<CBit> wow ^

<maxswagwow> is there a way to verify who gox cutsomers are and their accoutn balances?

<flibbr-dev> How can Karpeles be bankrupt with him stating 98% of BTC is held in offline storage with keys generated offline stored in seperate locations.

<usaoscoin> flibbr-dev: don't expose yourself

<maxswagwow> i want to start a releif project

<Luke-Jr> flibbr-dev: that was dumb

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<jutajata> Man this is so fucked up, a lot of people will get so screwed by this.

<yolobear> why would u do that maxs

<anarchystar> dustcoin: im talking to josh..

dustcoin_: probably a misunderstanding

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<yolobear> gox users should have known the risks of crypto

<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: someone is making a huge social engineering attack on bitcoiners. someone that wants all our names and information

<cobordism> yolobear, don't blame the victims

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<flibbr-dev> Luke-Jr: I didn't anticipate MtGox stopping withdrawals tbh.

<tinaivanova> dustcoin_: there were spam links and email trojans and now this

<afjfzvhvg> For all those thinking gox lost because of the m tx all the coins. That,

<mabus> 'the risks of crypto'

BAN THIS FILTH

<Luke-Jr> flibbr-dev: I mean putting your life savings into bitcoins

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<sdgsdf> luke is there any kind of effort of investigation going on? As in some kind of dev-taskforce?

<KuDeTa> yolobear: we understand the risks of crypto. we thought mark did too. Who loses 3/4mil bit coins

<zerwas> Mark Karpeles is already awake, just saw him write a message in another channel

<xiando> Do not confuse the risk of MtGox with the risk of crypto

<Luke-Jr> sdgsdf: it doesn't involve devs, beyond what we lost

<tinaivanova> zerwas: which channel

<maz0> afjfzvhvg i will never believe they were lost through tx maleability, thats rubbish

<tinaivanova> zerwas: what did he write

<mabus> xiando++

<dustcoin_> zerwas: what?

<zerwas> tinaivanova: the wiki channel

<Luke-Jr> zerwas: pfft

now it's gonna get flooded there

<tinaivanova> zerwas: which one

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<afjfzvhvg> is impossible. The issues were only some days long.

<Kikker2> How much could Mark have taken out in profits over the years, what is his own net worth?

<flibbr-dev> Luke-Jr: I didn't put my life savings in... but increase in wealth accumilation meant it became my live savings.

<catswaskittens> n

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<dustcoin_> Kikker2: Mark claims he stored his coins on mtgox

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<cokea> what did roger say

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<yolobear> flibbr how much u had in there?

<maz0> afjfzvhvg why is the issue isolated? why are no other exchanges complaining of tx malleability exploits? if hackers were doing it, they would have cleaned out every exchange

<yolobear> if u dont mind me ask

<KuDeTa> In terms of a plan: we absolutely need full clarity on what led to the loss: if it was a technical issue then we deserve after, what, 3 weeks now?

<Luke-Jr> flibbr-dev: shoulda withdrawn and sold some then :P

<cokea> RogerVer

<tinaivanova> zerwas: ?!

<cokea> Can you prove the text thing?

<McLovin123> why would Roger Ver lie?

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<Luke-Jr> cokea: if it happened, it should be Japan public record..

<jutajata> he doesnt have much more info than us

<flibbr-dev> Luke-Jr: I traded on MtGox for the liquidity vs other exchanges... looked at property & gold but btc won over on every aspect.. . Hard to predict Gox just shutting the door like that

<dustcoin_> McLovin123: he probably isn't lying but he has been wrong in the past

<jutajata> he just said Mark texted him that he was filling for bankruptcy

<zerwas> tinaivanova: just something about permissions for the wiki, nothing of relevance for MtGox

<cokea> I'm asking for a proof about the text message

A screenshot or something

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<cokea> Can you provide that RogerVer

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<entrigan> hes afk

<dustcoin_> cokea: screenshots aren't proof, his word is stronger than a screenshot

<entrigan> but imo, ver is not in a position to lie about that

<McLovin123> can anyone verify that rogerver said that?

<flibbr-dev> how can he be bankrupt with all the BTC still in the cold wallets ?

<McLovin123> in this chat?

<cokea> not hey're not dustcoin_

<jutajata> funny thing was, I spent the last months reading the book of Nassim Taleb - Black Swan

oh the irony

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<McLovin123> flibbr-dev, and more importantly, if it was just a BTC issue, why doesn't the fiat balances add up?

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<reb0rn> This is just so huge fuckuo, i mean no control of cold storage bleeding out :(

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<MolokoDesk> it's scrolled off here but I saw most of the early conversation before it got chaotic.

<reb0rn> fuck BTC, all buy LTC!!!

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<tolega1> if it was bleeding out it wasnt a cold wallet

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<emma> How could he possibly have lost all our coins?

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<flibbr-dev> I like the fact Mark paid Tibanne as a subcontractor 750k. .. like someone said, 'Mark made sure Mark was looked after'

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<catswaskittens> mark paid his

ca

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: i thought 700k btc were missing ,not 500k

<catswaskittens> cat

<mtgox513> He paid the cat?

<catswaskittens> lol

<MolokoDesk> anarchystar, what would make sense for a customers group to do, you think?

<tinaivanova> RogerVer: we need to find a way to salvage this before tommorow

<bovako-afk> RogerVer: Dude, you forgot to register to NickServ,.. might want to do that. ^^