Original Post

Eric Chabot · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45 Oct 6, 2013 · Salt Lake City, UT See comment in route description page. Climber seriously injured his hand and had bumps and bruises befitting a 60 foot fall down slightly less than vertical rock.



bonehead roof, rumney NH



The quickdraw in question was 2 Camp solid gate biners on a 8 inch long petzl dogbone. The top biner, the one on the bolt, was on the loose side of the dogbone and the rubber keeper side was on the rope end biner. The gates on the biners faced the same direction.



Besides being careful to face your biner gates away from the direction you are climbing, is there anything to be done about this short of putting lockers on every bolt?



Any other thoughts from the community?

Ryan Nevius · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 944 Oct 6, 2013 · Unknown Hometown Eric Chabot wrote: Besides being careful to face your biner gates away from the direction you are climbing, is there anything to be done about this short of putting lockers on every bolt? There's something in climbing we refer to as "redundancy." There is always the possibility of a bolt failing or a draw getting hung up on a bolt and unclipping. In such a case, we have to rely on our next piece of protection. I want to know why the bolt below the point of failure was "backcleaned." There's something in climbing we refer to as "redundancy." There is always the possibility of a bolt failing or a draw getting hung up on a bolt and unclipping. In such a case, we have to rely on our next piece of protection. I want to know why the bolt below the point of failure was "backcleaned."

marty funkhouser · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 30 Oct 6, 2013 · Unknown Hometown Unfortunately, draws CAN unclip especially during roof or mantel moves where the climber might unintentionally jostle the draw with their body or excessive rope drag while moving past. In situations where this would result in a ledge or ground fall then ideally you'd treat this protection point with the same redundancy as you would an anchor. If this isn't possible (no gear nearby) then lockers on both bolt and rope sides of the draw would be the next best solution. So sorry your friend was hurt and I hope he heals quickly.

Jake D. · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365 Oct 6, 2013 · Northeast Definitely at least put a 2' sling on the slab bolt. I can't remember if i do or not for that route or just use a normal draw. I know i put a long sling on the slab bolt on Lies and Propaganda and Med Dose Madness in that area.



having 1 long sling on your harness in case is a good idea. i usually have it as my "route bolts and anchors + 1" draw.



backcleaning a draw completely with only 1 bolt above a long fall potential is not a good idea.

bearbreeder · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown 2 opposed draws at critical points



Some people use lockers, but honestly on hard redpoints its faster imo just to clip 2 draws ... And "safer" ... Not to mention u might not have lockers for every sport lead ready



Try not to depend on any single bolt as well

Ryan Nevius · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 944 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown bearbreeder wrote: 2 opposed draws at critical points Some people use lockers, but honestly on hard redpoints its faster imo just to clip 2 draws ... And "safer" ... Not to mention u might not have lockers for every sport lead ready Try not to depend on any single bolt as well Holy $#it...bearbreeder, you forgot your signature " ;) ". Your advice is no good without it. Holy $#it...bearbreeder, you forgot your signature " ;) ". Your advice is no good without it.

bearbreeder · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown Ryan Nevius wrote: Holy $#it...bearbreeder, you forgot your signature " ;) ". Your advice is no good without it. This is a thread about someone getting seriously hurt .... This is a thread about someone getting seriously hurt ....

Daniel Winder · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 100 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown oh no

this draw came unclipped below me on lead. i recreated the scenario as i lowered. i climbed slightly above the bolt then traversed right. Bolt side gate was facing direction of travel. this draw came unclipped below me on lead. i recreated the scenario as i lowered. i climbed slightly above the bolt then traversed right. Bolt side gate was facing direction of travel.

ABB · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 0 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown A couple decades or more ago the recommended practice was to flip the hanger-biner upside down after clipping a bolt-hanger, leaving the gate opening downward. This is rarely done today despite the increased safety. An upsidedown hanger-biner should remain the recommended practice, especially in a high-stakes location.



Some dogbones are sewn along their length, giving them a more rigid feel. Some of these are very short bones, making them much more prone to generating enough torque to unclip a biner from a hanger.

Ming · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 1,574 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown I second the flipping over the biner techninque (that is if you are in a stable clipping position and not getting pumped out). It'll make those type of moves much safer.

dnoB ekiM · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 3,118 Oct 7, 2013 · Kentucky "on a 8 inch long petzl dogbone"



Newer style (all light gray) or older style petzl dogbone?



The new petzl dogbones are stiff (one might even say rigid), and this can make this much more likely.

bearbreeder · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown John Marsella wrote: Is this where you should clip "spine to the line [ie, direction of travel]"? Or does this little mantra refer to the rope-side carabiner? It seems traversing right with the spine of the bolt-side carabiner oriented towards the right would have prevented this? Both spines should generally face the direction of travel ... Petzl recommends this way in their documentation Both spines should generally face the direction of travel ... Petzl recommends this way in their documentation

Peter Jackson · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 445 Oct 7, 2013 · Rumney, NH John Marsella wrote: Is this where you should clip "spine to the line [ie, direction of travel]"? Or does this little mantra refer to the rope-side carabiner? It seems traversing right with the spine of the bolt-side carabiner oriented towards the right would have prevented this? EDITED: [ I removed some non-scientific observations that I tested out in my bolt-garden and found to be bullshit. Sorry! I was wrong. ]



Ryan Nevius wrote: There's something in climbing we refer to as "redundancy." There is always the possibility of a bolt failing or a draw getting hung up on a bolt and unclipping. In such a case, we have to rely on our next piece of protection. I want to know why the bolt below the point of failure was "backcleaned." Ryan, the draw under the roof causes a lot of excess rope drag, and putting a long sling on the bolt often scares leaders because extending the fall 2 feet puts them into harm's way by way of a ledge. Take a look at the route description: blowing the last clip often results in a ledge fall: a situation many climbers try to mitigate by using too short a sling.



I agree that backcleaning isn't the best answer, but it's become common. The safest among Rumney locals will hang a draw plus a 2 foot sling on that bolt, then backclean only the draw once the next bolt is clipped. leaving a 2-foot sling on the bolt.



Jake D wrote: Definitely at least put a 2' sling on the slab bolt. I can't remember if i do or not for that route or just use a normal draw. I know i put a long sling on the slab bolt on Lies and Propaganda and Med Dose Madness in that area. Definitely good advice. Incidentally, an alpine draw (open sling with two biners, preferably wiregates) would have been much less likely to unclip on that top bolt. I like my quickdraws, but I usually carry at least one extra open sling.



Even better, there is the possibility of getting trad gear in the top before you top out. This route calls for extra caution and extra gear.



I hope the injured party recovers fully, and I hope those involved will consider writing a report for the AAC publications next year. This is a topic that isn't discussed enough. EDITED: [ I removed some non-scientific observations that I tested out in my bolt-garden and found to be bullshit. Sorry! I was wrong. ]Ryan, the draw under the roof causes a lot of excess rope drag, and putting a long sling on the bolt often scares leaders because extending the fall 2 feet puts them into harm's way by way of a ledge. Take a look at the route description: blowing the last clip often results in a ledge fall: a situation many climbers try to mitigate by using too short a sling.I agree that backcleaning isn't the best answer, but it's become common. The safest among Rumney locals will hang a draw plus a 2 foot sling on that bolt, then backclean only the draw once the next bolt is clipped. leaving a 2-foot sling on the bolt.Definitely good advice. Incidentally, an alpine draw (open sling with two biners, preferably wiregates) would have been much less likely to unclip on that top bolt. I like my quickdraws, but I usually carry at least one extra open sling.Even better, there is the possibility of getting trad gear in the top before you top out. This route calls for extra caution and extra gear.I hope the injured party recovers fully, and I hope those involved will consider writing a report for the AAC publications next year. This is a topic that isn't discussed enough.

S. Neoh · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35 Oct 7, 2013 · Unknown Hometown Often (but not always) I will flip the top biners of draws/slings I place at anchors.



The photo that DW posted is SCARY. I am looking at it and thinking how big is the head of that bolt? It seems that it is so large that it prevents the biner from rotating freely without getting the nose hung up on the hanger.

Russ Keane · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 387 Dec 13, 2013 · Plymouth, NH So on a quick draw, are you supposed to put the biner with the rubber-stopper on the Bolt side, or the Rope side...? I always put the loosey-goosey one on the bolt side, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe this twisting near the bolt is not good.

Jason Halladay · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 13,766 Dec 13, 2013 · Los Alamos, NM Russ Keane wrote: So on a quick draw, are you supposed to put the biner with the rubber-stopper on the Bolt side, or the Rope side...? The rope end. You're doing it right. You want the bolt-end biner to be able to move more freely. See the diagrams on page 2 of the The rope end. You're doing it right. You want the bolt-end biner to be able to move more freely. See the diagrams on page 2 of the Petzl Spirt Express guide.

Russ Keane · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 387 Dec 13, 2013 · Plymouth, NH OK thanks.



I think now I am grasping what "ABB" said, regarding flipping the biner upside-down after clipping. It's on the bolt biner, to turn the biner so the opening action is farthest away from the bolt (where it could come off).

ChefMattThaner · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246 Dec 13, 2013 · Lakewood, co bearbreeder wrote: 2 opposed draws at critical points Some people use lockers, but honestly on hard redpoints its faster imo just to clip 2 draws ... And "safer" ... Not to mention u might not have lockers for every sport lead ready Try not to depend on any single bolt as well +1 I am glad I'm not the only one that doubles up on the draws for tough spots/sketchy bolt placements. +1 I am glad I'm not the only one that doubles up on the draws for tough spots/sketchy bolt placements.

Syd · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0 Dec 13, 2013 · Unknown Hometown I've never been in this situation, so please excuse my ignorance but would something adjustable like a purcel prusik replacing the dog bone, be a suitable alternative to back cleaning ? It could be lengthened after the higher clip.