AHMED: If you read the small print on any of our messenger services, it’s pretty much the same thing. But it’s cool, at least this way it’s all out in the open. I want to know how you get past this as a standup [comedian] because, in a way, I think it’s the most extreme version of this. As a performer, you are seeking the validation of others, and as a standup comic, it’s binary, almost. Either people laugh, or they don’t laugh. So how do you write good material without being conscious of trying to “chase the laugh”?

KONDABOLU: It’s a sick thing, right: people are afraid of public speaking. I do public speaking, except my public speaking involves the audience only having one type of emotion and one type of reaction. If they have anything other than laughter, it’s a failure. That’s an absurd thing for a human to try to seek. The main thing to realize is that whatever I say, it’s my truth and I believe in it, and if I don’t get a laugh off that, then it’s not working.

So I center myself knowing the two things I need to focus on are “is this something I believe and can stand by,” and, “Is it making people laugh. And the people who are laughing: are they laughing the way I want them to laugh? Are they laughing at me or are they laughing with me?”

AHMED: It’s like what Dave Chappelle did.

KONDABOLU: Yeah, totally. Is it a weapon? The only difference with the Chappelle thing is that I think about it in intersectional terms, right? So it’s not just a matter of “Are they laughing at me?” But am I kicking downwards? In order to make a point about race, am I saying something insulting about women? I don’t want it to be at a cost to anyone else, and that’s difficult because I’ve narrowed the amount of things I can say to some degree. It makes my voice clear—people know my ethos—but at the same time, it narrows the playing field. I can only use this much space. But I think actually, for me, that makes it more exciting and interesting: it’s an additional challenge.

AHMED: I think that the U.S. has a slightly more advanced—or at least a more complicated—conversation around who’s fair game. In terms of “What direction can you kick in?” It seems to me the consensus is about where you sit in the power gradient. If you’re part of a relatively privileged community, then don’t get up there and start telling jokes or stories or satirizing marginalized communities that may not have access to the same stage or microphone that you have.

KONDABOLU: Exactly, exactly.

AHMED: Or carry a historical burden of being denigrated. In that context, you are not speaking truth to power; you’re compounding the worst effects of an unfair power structure. People seem to understand that a bit more in the States, whereas, over here [in the U.K.], it’s kind of an undeveloped conversation. So a famous standup comedian recently had a Halloween party dressed as Kim Jong-Il. He’s a white dude, he painted his face yellow. He put prosthetics on his eyes to make them narrower. Some people said, “Hang on a minute—you can’t do that.” And a large amount of people said, “Wait, why not? Does that mean I can’t dress up as Donald Trump and paint myself orange?” It’s really tricky to not have a way to talk with people and explain to them “it’s not like no one can dress up as anyone.” It doesn’t mean that Hari can’t get up and tell a joke about a relatively privileged community like middle-class white dudes. He can, because in that context, he’s kicking against power.