ShoeFactory Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 186 Posts Last Edited: 2011-03-13 10:09:45 #1

I came upon this composition while testing strategies against biomech or turtley terrans that I could not break with muta/ling/baneling.



The premise of roach/hydra/bane is to have a composition that forces the terran bio to stand by the terran mech units which allows baneling drops to decimate their marines. If the terran tries to marine split, tanks will be left undefended and torn apart by roach hydra. If the marines stay and fight with the tanks, they get carpet bombed by banelings.







When to use:



1. Against mech and biomech. Roach hydra is proven strong against mech but falls apart when terran bio is added in. Baneling drops solve this problem. Marines are strong when they can be split to avoid banelings. However, when marines are added to mech, the marines have to stand and fight to defend thors and tanks. Baneling drops are then used to counter the marines.



I typically decide to go roach hydra bane if I scout 2 factories when I reach lair. This usually indicates mech or biomech. 1 Factory is often just standard marine tank medivac play.





2. Close positions. Close positions are never easy for zerg. This isn't a solution for close positions but I believe it is much stronger than the standard muta ling bane. Muta ling bane relies on mobility and counterattacking. However in close positions, it is difficult to expand and utilize the mobility of muta/ling/bane. Roach/hydra/baneling is a strong army that is much stronger against the tank bunker pushes that terrans love to do in close positions.



3. On maps like Xelnaga Caverns where the Terran has an easy central gold 3rd. Once terrans take the gold, it becomes difficult for zerg to take it down with muta ling bane. Roach hydra bane can take out planetaries much more easily. This prevents greedy turtle terrans that aim for a fast gold.



Anticipated Criticisms



1. HYDRAS? Don't they suck against tanks?



Hydras are important because we can have more simultaneous attacking units. This allows roach hydra to tear apart mech units really quickly. Hydras are no worse vs tanks than roaches are. They take the same number of shots (3).



2. How do you stop drop plays?



Avoid this strategy if you believe they will go reactor starport medivacs. This typically happens if you scout 1 fact because the extra gas goes into medivacs. But 2 fact won't have enough gas for medivacs.



3. Can't they just shoot down overlords?



Bring empty overlords with your overlords filled with banelings. If the terran wants to try to shoot down empty overlords during a battle, they simply wont have enough DPS against your attacking units.



4. What's your late game?



Since less banelings are needed, and roach hydra is less gas intensive than muta ling, you will have more gas to tech to hive and have broodlords. I recommend upgrading +1 melee in the mid game to facilitate this transition.



Replays



I put some replays here where I have used this strategy recently. It is by no means refined and completely tested, but you should be able to get the general idea.



My mechanics are rusty but lets focus on the strategy here





















Let me know your thoughts about the strategy. I'm sure there are ways to improve it and possibly weaknesses that I have overlooked. I have been using this extremely often recently. You can follow me at Roach hydra was used extensively in the beta very often but has completely given way to muta ling bane against Terran. I am a top 200 NA zerg and I use roach hydra baneling in about half my games ZvT. The other half of games consist of muta/ling/baneling.I came upon this composition while testing strategies against biomech or turtley terrans that I could not break with muta/ling/baneling.The premise of roach/hydra/bane is to have a composition that forces the terran bio to stand by the terran mech units which allows baneling drops to decimate their marines. If the terran tries to marine split, tanks will be left undefended and torn apart by roach hydra. If the marines stay and fight with the tanks, they get carpet bombed by banelings.1. Against mech and biomech. Roach hydra is proven strong against mech but falls apart when terran bio is added in. Baneling drops solve this problem. Marines are strong when they can be split to avoid banelings. However, when marines are added to mech, the marines have to stand and fight to defend thors and tanks. Baneling drops are then used to counter the marines.I typically decide to go roach hydra bane if I scout 2 factories when I reach lair. This usually indicates mech or biomech. 1 Factory is often just standard marine tank medivac play.2. Close positions. Close positions are never easy for zerg. This isn't a solution for close positions but I believe it is much stronger than the standard muta ling bane. Muta ling bane relies on mobility and counterattacking. However in close positions, it is difficult to expand and utilize the mobility of muta/ling/bane. Roach/hydra/baneling is a strong army that is much stronger against the tank bunker pushes that terrans love to do in close positions.3. On maps like Xelnaga Caverns where the Terran has an easy central gold 3rd. Once terrans take the gold, it becomes difficult for zerg to take it down with muta ling bane. Roach hydra bane can take out planetaries much more easily. This prevents greedy turtle terrans that aim for a fast gold.1. HYDRAS? Don't they suck against tanks?Hydras are important because we can have more simultaneous attacking units. This allows roach hydra to tear apart mech units really quickly. Hydras are no worse vs tanks than roaches are. They take the same number of shots (3).2. How do you stop drop plays?Avoid this strategy if you believe they will go reactor starport medivacs. This typically happens if you scout 1 fact because the extra gas goes into medivacs. But 2 fact won't have enough gas for medivacs.3. Can't they just shoot down overlords?Bring empty overlords with your overlords filled with banelings. If the terran wants to try to shoot down empty overlords during a battle, they simply wont have enough DPS against your attacking units.4. What's your late game?Since less banelings are needed, and roach hydra is less gas intensive than muta ling, you will have more gas to tech to hive and have broodlords. I recommend upgrading +1 melee in the mid game to facilitate this transition.I put some replays here where I have used this strategy recently. It is by no means refined and completely tested, but you should be able to get the general idea.My mechanics are rusty but lets focus on the strategy hereLet me know your thoughts about the strategy. I'm sure there are ways to improve it and possibly weaknesses that I have overlooked. I have been using this extremely often recently. You can follow me at www.justin.tv/shoefactory or http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/ShoeFactory to see this strategy in action.

brokenSC Profile Joined November 2009 United States 84 Posts Last Edited: 2011-03-13 10:22:28 #2 Good post. Interesting style i never really thought about. Will watch replays now.

dementrio Profile Joined November 2010 678 Posts #3 I think this is interesting and will check the replays shortly, in the meanwhile how would you argue that roach/hydra is better than roach/ling using the same baneling tactic?



infinity21 Profile Blog Joined October 2006 Canada 6683 Posts #4 Interesting strat. I think it's definitely viable vs the typical rine/2 fac tank/medi



As a Terran, I would switch to more medivac & marauder/rine/tank as soon as I see mass roaches and abuse drop play. Lack of muta really hurts you in maintaining map control. I wonder how the game would unfold if T switches tech after seeing the mass roach. From my limited experience, zergs seemed to be going for base trades after I take out their 3rd. Official Entusman #21

ShoeFactory Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 186 Posts Last Edited: 2011-03-13 10:41:22 #5 On March 13 2011 19:29 dementrio wrote:

I think this is interesting and will check the replays shortly, in the meanwhile how would you argue that roach/hydra is better than roach/ling using the same baneling tactic?





I would say so if the map is attack distance is short to medium length. Hydras are limited by their mobility so big maps such as the GSL maps would not be fitting for hydras. In battle, I think having hydras is better than lings because roach hydra will keep their distance from marines so that the marines have to stand up at the front of the battle so you can baneling bomb them. If you use lings instead, marines that are spread out in the back of the battle will still be able to participate by attacking lings.





I would say so if the map is attack distance is short to medium length. Hydras are limited by their mobility so big maps such as the GSL maps would not be fitting for hydras. In battle, I think having hydras is better than lings because roach hydra will keep their distance from marines so that the marines have to stand up at the front of the battle so you can baneling bomb them. If you use lings instead, marines that are spread out in the back of the battle will still be able to participate by attacking lings. On March 13 2011 19:36 infinity21 wrote:

Interesting strat. I think it's definitely viable vs the typical rine/2 fac tank/medi



As a Terran, I would switch to more medivac & marauder/rine/tank as soon as I see mass roaches and abuse drop play. Lack of muta really hurts you in maintaining map control. I wonder how the game would unfold if T switches tech after seeing the mass roach. From my limited experience, zergs seemed to be going for base trades after I take out their 3rd.





I agree with you, I believe lacking mutas makes stopping drops very difficult. I typically open vT by planning to get spire. Often I get spire, and then realize they are going 2 or more factories, in which case I add lots of roaches and eventually hydra. It's a lot easier for the zerg to techswitch than the terran if they decide to switch to medivac play from factory units. I agree with you, I believe lacking mutas makes stopping drops very difficult. I typically open vT by planning to get spire. Often I get spire, and then realize they are going 2 or more factories, in which case I add lots of roaches and eventually hydra. It's a lot easier for the zerg to techswitch than the terran if they decide to switch to medivac play from factory units.

infinity21 Profile Blog Joined October 2006 Canada 6683 Posts #6 Yeah I think one solution for Terran is to have 2 fac tank with 1 reactor port. I can't support all of them but it's not a huge investment to add a reactor to the starport anyways. It's probably good to have like 3 rax with tech lab if I see a good number of roaches as well. I'd be down to play a few games with you tomorrow if you want to see how the game pans out.



infinity.372 Official Entusman #21

dementrio Profile Joined November 2010 678 Posts #7 I found really interesting the opening you did vs rootprincess on metal. You delay the second queen to get a warren, then get 6 roaches leaving 1 drone on gas until 100, and get lair before speed (!)

I really like the idea to get roaches to deal with the popular hellion openings which you can't really scout in time to reactively throw down the warren, but I'm not sure I can live without speed for that long. Is this something you do often or only in close positions, and do you think it would be possible to leave 3 drones on gas all the time to get roaches, speed and lair, or would that hurt econ too much?

dextermilo Profile Joined November 2010 United States 16 Posts #8 What about using defensive infestors to help deal with drops? It seems like a limited amount of infestors, maybe 1 per expansion, could help mitigate the damage dealt by drops. Also, infestors, as long as you don't suicide them (which everyone does), work really well with hydra.



Also, because you have overlord speed you could be aggressive about keeping overlords spread around the map for spotting drops.

Super_bricklayer Profile Joined May 2010 France 104 Posts #9 I probably had a big trauma during the beta concerning Hydra in ZvT, cause i really didn't think that strat was doable. The first game on close pos metalo is great, and make me consider doing so on close pos. I have too say that i had a lot of doubts when reading the OP and that game kind of blow my mind. But that the 2nd one against Sterling was painful to watch.



Don't get me wrong, i'm very impressed by your play on that one, but i would be destroyed ( and i think 80% of zerg player would also fall apart ) by that drop play. It's so sad to see you running around loosing so many hatch,thankfully to place that kind of aggression the Terran is kind of all in on 2 base during almost all the game but still this game make me cry like a nerd teenager on bliz forum against the mobility of hydras.



I didn't watch the 4 th one, but the third is impressive too. What i'm trying to say is that it's look pretty hard to execute, my heart is bleeding when i see those full overloard getting destroyed. I'm not too sure i like that on Xel naga, well, i was pretty impressed by the first one on metalo that feels way more solid and doable for my level. I guess it's feel more safe on close pos, small map with less space in general.



The last point that makes me sceptical is your supply. It's probably a meta game stuff, and some personal taste concerning the zerg arsenal. But you are max'ed out really quick, this is a problem imo with roaches/hydra. But this point didn't seem to affect the game, so i don't know.



It's weird, i don't know what to think, you are confusing sir ! :D

XXXSmOke Profile Blog Joined November 2004 United States 1329 Posts #10 Nice strat, bane drops are so damn good, yet no Z uses it versus me, they just keep masssing 12389238 mutas and then whine. This has got some good potential as roach/hydra alone isnt enough.



Another possible solution is NPing the Terrans tank with this combo. I had a Z do that the other day to me, NPing the tanks when its a tank/marine combo is extremely deadly as the tanks stop shooting the hydra/roach and start taking out all the marine rapidly, even a few seconds of tank NP is alot for the terran to handle.

Emperor? Boxer disapproves. He's building bunkers at your mom's house even as you're reading this.

shindigs Profile Blog Joined May 2009 United States 4775 Posts #11 Carpet bombing with banelings seems to be surging back as a trend, as this mimics aquanda's ZvP style. At first it seemed a bit impractical because you could lose a ton of ovies, but after watching a few plays with this style it seems to be well worth it because your opponent is on their toes when they see a huge gaggle of overlords full of banelings coming their way. Sort of a new way to get Zerg to be the instigators in the engagement. Photographer @shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs

Sterling Profile Joined December 2009 United States 180 Posts #12 Pretty pathetic game I played. I was trying a new style but its really apm intensive and I just didnt have it that day. I find that my normal playstyle of 2 factory mech-heavy biomech crushes roach/hydra play.



Also, I recognized that picture from our game the moment I saw it ))))

Undercroft Profile Joined April 2010 United Kingdom 166 Posts Last Edited: 2011-03-14 12:51:59 #13

And infestors aint as damn slow as hydras (wtb speed upgrade back )



[edit] Also infestor tech already in play means a swifter transition to hive tech when you want it, which got me thinking. Do you opt for ultras or brolords? I'm assumign ultras since you won't have the spire up, but broodlords go nicely with hydras due to covering eachothers weaknesses. Hmm, with the upcoming infestor buff have you considered maybe swapping some hydras out for a couple infestors? Fungal will do soem amazing dps, plus they can burrow move with your roach forces. Also infested terrans use the same upgrades as roach/hydra which is a plus.And infestors aint as damn slow as hydras (wtb speed upgrade back[edit] Also infestor tech already in play means a swifter transition to hive tech when you want it, which got me thinking. Do you opt for ultras or brolords? I'm assumign ultras since you won't have the spire up, but broodlords go nicely with hydras due to covering eachothers weaknesses. Our dronessssss are under attaahck!!

theMarkovian Profile Joined June 2010 Netherlands 164 Posts #14 This seems very interesting for close distance spawns. As you said, the mobility you have with ling/muta is pretty dead when he can expand and attack in the same (short) direction. I'd rather have a strong standing army. Hit me up ingame! ID: Markovian.126; Diamond@EU

zVooky Profile Joined February 2011 United States 151 Posts #15 thanks shoey, been thinkin about doing something like this, ill check out the replays

ShoeFactory Profile Blog Joined April 2010 United States 186 Posts Last Edited: 2011-03-18 12:22:15 #16 On March 13 2011 19:58 dementrio wrote:

I found really interesting the opening you did vs rootprincess on metal. You delay the second queen to get a warren, then get 6 roaches leaving 1 drone on gas until 100, and get lair before speed (!)

I really like the idea to get roaches to deal with the popular hellion openings which you can't really scout in time to reactively throw down the warren, but I'm not sure I can live without speed for that long. Is this something you do often or only in close positions, and do you think it would be possible to leave 3 drones on gas all the time to get roaches, speed and lair, or would that hurt econ too much?



I think you can live without speed on close positions. Mobility isn't as important and if you see a gas first, you can be sure hellions are coming.



I don't think its smart to leave 3 guys on gas. Once you get safe, you should power economy. Putting 3 guys on gas is poor economy management, because you cut drones to make roaches, so you should forgo units while you power your econ.





On March 14 2011 21:49 Undercroft wrote:

Hmm, with the upcoming infestor buff have you considered maybe swapping some hydras out for a couple infestors? Fungal will do soem amazing dps, plus they can burrow move with your roach forces. Also infested terrans use the same upgrades as roach/hydra which is a plus.

And infestors aint as damn slow as hydras (wtb speed upgrade back )



[edit] Also infestor tech already in play means a swifter transition to hive tech when you want it, which got me thinking. Do you opt for ultras or brolords? I'm assumign ultras since you won't have the spire up, but broodlords go nicely with hydras due to covering eachothers weaknesses. Hmm, with the upcoming infestor buff have you considered maybe swapping some hydras out for a couple infestors? Fungal will do soem amazing dps, plus they can burrow move with your roach forces. Also infested terrans use the same upgrades as roach/hydra which is a plus.And infestors aint as damn slow as hydras (wtb speed upgrade back[edit] Also infestor tech already in play means a swifter transition to hive tech when you want it, which got me thinking. Do you opt for ultras or brolords? I'm assumign ultras since you won't have the spire up, but broodlords go nicely with hydras due to covering eachothers weaknesses.



I don't really have a use for infestors because the terran army already has to stand and fight or their tanks die. It's not like ling bling play where marines try to spread and run around. I'd rather get the faster hive than have infestors. I'd also rather have a muta pack to stop drops than have infestors.



Always broodlords, because like you said, hydras force terran to have a ground AND air dominance to beat broodlords. I make the spire at t2 to have unit options. A 200/200 building is a small price to pay the option to techswitch. I think ultras are pretty bad anyways.



I think you can live without speed on close positions. Mobility isn't as important and if you see a gas first, you can be sure hellions are coming.I don't think its smart to leave 3 guys on gas. Once you get safe, you should power economy. Putting 3 guys on gas is poor economy management, because you cut drones to make roaches, so you should forgo units while you power your econ.I don't really have a use for infestors because the terran army already has to stand and fight or their tanks die. It's not like ling bling play where marines try to spread and run around. I'd rather get the faster hive than have infestors. I'd also rather have a muta pack to stop drops than have infestors.Always broodlords, because like you said, hydras force terran to have a ground AND air dominance to beat broodlords. I make the spire at t2 to have unit options. A 200/200 building is a small price to pay the option to techswitch. I think ultras are pretty bad anyways.

wattabeast Profile Blog Joined March 2011 United States 957 Posts #17 interesting idea... thanks i will try it! :O

HTODethklok Profile Joined November 2010 United States 221 Posts #18 Ive been having really good result using this vs Biomech terran Thanks for sharing it :D Guns for show... Knives for a pro HTODethklok.201 NA

pwadoc Profile Joined August 2010 271 Posts #19 I've been favoring roach/bling drops in ZvT lately, and I wonder if you think it's a viable approach with your build. Drops are particularly stressful for a meching terran, given their immobility, and could be a good response if you're afraid of a dropship transition from the terran.

theBIGdog Profile Joined February 2011 United States 41 Posts #20 I'm not convinced that hydras are going to be cost effective especially since they are so gas heavy. Smart terrans usually continue to go tank against roach since a critical amount of tanks still cream roaches.



I'm going to start watching replays but still a bit skeptical. ULTRASTOMP

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