EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: And with the Communications Minister Stephen Conroy in the Senate and his opposite number Malcolm Turnbull in the House of Representatives, it's rare to see the two match wits on their portfolio issues.

Both men joined us from our Parliament House studios in Canberra just a short time ago.

Gentlemen, welcome.

STEPHEN CONROY, COMMUNICATONS MINISTER: Good to be with you.

MALCOLM TURNBULL, OPPOSITION COMMUNICATIONS SPOKESMAN: Great to be with you, Emma.

EMMA ALBERICI: If I can start with the Minister, Senator Conroy, you've said that under the Government's plan 93 per cent of Australians will have internet speeds of 100 megabits per second by 2021, at a cost of around $37.5 billion or so. Is that a guarantee or an aspiration?

STEPHEN CONROY: Look, the corporate plan has set out what we believe are absolutely deliverable and achievable targets. We said back in February that we would have under construction or completed 758,000 homes in December, and Malcolm Turnbull on Sky said "Oh look, I guess there would be a lot of admiration if that happened, but if they can't well it would be a fail".

Well we are on target by the end of December to meet that target. So we're very confident that the construction process is now ramped up and is really starting to accelerate right across the country.

EMMA ALBERICI: Constructed or completed 758,000, did you say?

STEPHEN CONROY: 758,000, we're already past 600 ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Is that connections?

STEPHEN CONROY: No, that's under construction or completed by the end of December. And we put that out back in February and we said we would meet that, and Malcolm Turnbull laughed, absolutely laughed at Mike Quigley and the seam and said, "Can't be done".

EMMA ALBERICI: But we've recently seen that the NBN has said they've connected 7,000 premises to fibre?

STEPHEN CONROY: Well it's growing every day. We're actually at 8,500 as of, I think, yesterday or today. So every single day we're connecting premises. We have over 30,000 Australians using the national broadband network today, 30,000. We're anticipating that by June, July next year we'll have about 50 to 60,000 on the fibre and about 90,000 all up on all of the fibre, wireless and satellite.

EMMA ALBERICI: Malcolm Turnbull, if you're elected to Government next year what's your intention with regards to the NBN? Do you continue to build or will you abandon it?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Emma, before I address that can I just say: what the Minister said earlier is completely untrue. I have never taken seriously his figure of "premises where construction has commenced or been completed". It is a complete nonsense, so what he put to you at the outset, those figures - that 758,000 figure - is nonsense. It is designed to mislead people into thinking the NBN is making progress when it is not.

EMMA ALBERICI: Senator Conroy, can you explain the difference between this figure of 8,000 and the 758,000?

STEPHEN CONROY: The 758,000 is the construction contracts issued by NBN. This is people walking the streets, cleaning out the pits and pipes, pulling fibre through the pits and pipes and connecting it to houses. This is what the NBN is doing all across Australia. I think we've got over 40 sites today that were building the NBN in.

So Malcolm wants to pretend the only time you can count this is the day that the customer activates it. These are real workers - 1,500 plus workers - across Australia pulling fibre through the pits and pipes and connecting them to the sides of houses. Malcolm just wants to set his own metric and ignore the fact that, in his own words in an interview in February, he said NBN couldn't do it and they're going to do it, so he's got to now back away from it.

EMMA ALBERICI: So if I can just clarify and make this simple ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: This is just untrue ...

EMMA ALBERICI: One minute, please, Mr Turnbull. So 8,000 people are currently connected; that is they've signed up?

STEPHEN CONROY: 30,000 people are using the national broadband network today. 30,000 people. There are 8,500 on fibre, about 20,000 odd on satellite and the remainder on wireless, those are roughly the figures. So it's 30,000 people using the national broadband network to date. So we had to construct a whole range of things that need to be put in place before you can start connecting houses. And that's what we've been doing.

EMMA ALBERICI: So where is the confusion, Malcolm Turnbull?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: The confusion is that he uses this figure of 758,000 premises "under construction" which means ... well who knows what that means ...

STEPHEN CONROY: I just told you what it means, you can look it up.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: ... in order to create ... in order to create the impression that there is real progress being made. Now the NBN wants us to believe that by June 30, 2021 there will be 8.5 million premises connected to the fibre. As of today, which is less than nine years away from that point, they have in fact 8,500 premises, so they say, have active connections to the fibre.

So they are 0.1 per cent the way along their ... to meet their target. What I'm saying to you, this is proceeding at a snail's pace, and Senator Conroy emphasises the larger figure, which is a nonsense figure and it's calculated to mislead people.

STEPHEN CONROY: Can I just respond to that, Emma? Every day in Parliament when I'm asked a question - which is rarely by the Opposition - I announce how many connections we've got. I announce it every single day. Let me just show you one graph that Malcolm likes to ignore. It was tabled by Mike Quigley a couple of weeks ago at the joint parliamentary committee where Malcolm was at.

This shows what's called a "ramp up". You start the build and then you start the increase, and we are accelerated and in that ramp up phase. Mike Quigley tabled this document; Malcolm wants to pretend it doesn't exist because it doesn't suit him. We're on target for 758,000. By June it will be 1.2, and we are on target to have 60 to 80,000 customers on fibre and satellite and wireless all together by June next year.

EMMA ALBERICI: Malcolm Turnbull, you didn't answer my question which was, if you are elected to the government next year, what is your intention with regards to the NBN? Do you continue to build or do you abandon it?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, we'll continue to build it and we'll complete the NBN sooner, cheaper, at less cost to the taxpayer and more affordably for the customer. It's very important. Our criticism of this project is not of the objective of all Australians having very fast broadband. We endorse that.

Our criticism is that the way the Government is going about it is far too expensive and far too slow. When they announced this scheme, when they announced this three or four years ago, there were 2 million Australians that couldn't, on their wire line, download a YouTube video. There still are.

There are millions of Australians who have inadequate broadband today and nothing has been done about it, and they may have to wait 10 years or more to get their service improved. We can do it much faster because we are not ... we do not treat technology as a religious issue.

The objective is to deliver very fast broadband as cost effectively and as quickly as possible. We are agnostic about technology. We use whatever technology can do the job as quickly and as cheaply as possible, and as affordably as possible, and that is critical.

EMMA ALBERICI: So when you say you're going to continue to build the NBN, you're not going to continue to carry the fibre line - the fastest possible speeds - all the way to people's homes?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: That's right. The network design would be virtually identical up to the street cabinet, and the problem with this fibre to the premises...

STEPHEN CONROY: I didn't realise Malcolm was an engineer now.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: The problem with this project, Emma, is that it is far too expensive ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Well, how much is yours going to cost?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, the Government says it will have a peak cash requirement of about ...

EMMA ALBERICI: No, how much is yours going to cost?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: If you were starting from scratch it would cost around ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But you're not going to be starting from scratch.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Let me just answer the question. If you were starting from scratch without any of their existing contracts we know it would cost about $15 billion to do the whole job. So a third or less of what the NBN Co is saying it will cost. What we don't know - is because the NBN Co has not been transparent about it - is how many contracts they've entered into which have locked in, wasteful commitments - over investment which we may well be stuck with.

So what I can say, absolutely ... with full knowledge and a very good understanding of the rival technologies, what I can say is that we can complete the job much faster and much cheaper than the Government can if they continue with their existing strategy.

EMMA ALBERICI: Stephen Conroy.

STEPHEN CONROY: The big unknown is ... the big unknown is that Malcolm quotes this third figure from an Alcatel-Lucent study which said if you were the incumbent it would be the third of the cost. That's what the study says. Malcolm just chops the second half of the sentence.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: That's not true. That is untrue.

STEPHEN CONROY: So, Malcolm's claim about $15 billion dollars ... I'm happy to take $15 billion if that's the cost, Malcolm, but what you've got to tell us is how much you're going to spend and, Malcolm, how long is it going to take you to build your network? Just tell us: how long and how much? You said back in August you had a fully costed plan. Well Emma's asked you, I'm asking, the Australian public are asking you: how much is it going to cost, what price are you going to charge for your product? The cheapest NBN plan available in the market place today is $29.95. Are you saying you will charge cheaper than that, and how long is it going to take?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, if I can answer those questions. If you have less capital invested to deliver the result, obviously you don't need to charge as much. The NBN Co is going to result in Australians paying more for broadband whereas, in fact ...

STEPHEN CONROY: That is just untrue, Malcolm. Untrue. $29.95 in a marketplace today.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: ... over the last 10 years the ACCC showed telephone charges are down 34 per cent, OECD data shows broadband retail charges fell 69 per cent over the past five years. However, if you look at page 69 of the NBN Co's corporate plan, you will see that the average revenue per user triples from $22 in 2012 to $62 in 2021. That is a fact. That is their forecast. So broadband costs have been going down and under Stephen Conroy they will go up.

STEPHEN CONROY: Malcolm gave a speech in Western Australia; he said we shouldn't reward politicians for spin. Well, every single word there was spin.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: There's the page. There it is.

EMMA ALBERICI: Let's ... I think ... I think ...

STEPHEN CONROY: Misrepresent the figures there. Malcolm, how much are you going to charge per month? Less than $29.95 or not? You say you've got a fully costed plan. Come clean.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, I have not said we have a fully costed plan ...

STEPHEN CONROY: That's what you told the Financial Review.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, you know ... you know we do not ... we're not in a position to present a corporate plan along the lines you have because we don't have access to your data. You give us full access to the NBN Co's financials and we will deliver that. But the NBN Co has a sort of financial transparency regime modelled on the Kremlin. It's a defensive organisation, it puts out bodgie numbers like that 758,000 thing to conceal the fact that this is a failure.

EMMA ALBERICI: Okay, let's move on. Just a couple of months ago, Malcolm Turnbull, in a speech in Perth you decried the poor level of debate in the Australian Parliament and you said there had been too much focus on the Prime Minister in question time and not enough time spent discussing policy.

Now I wanted to ask you, is the so called AWU scandal with a link to the Prime Minister that dates back 20 years, is that really the most important issue facing Australia at the moment that we see in this final week of the Parliament. So far every question on your side has been devoted to that issue?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well Emma, let me step away from the partisanship and say something to you that I've thought about very deeply and is objective and I hope will be seen as a nonpartisan statement.

EMMA ALBERICI: But I wanted you to answer my question.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well the answer to the question is: of course it's an important issue, it goes to the integrity of the Prime Minister. There are many important issues and it is being focused on quite properly by the Opposition this week. But let me just make this observation ...

EMMA ALBERICI: As the most important issue facing the nation?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: It is one of many important issues facing the nation but you deal with one issue at a time and that's what's being dealt with this week. The Prime Minister faces some very serious challenges here. She's dealing with events that are 17 years old, documents - some of which are available, some of which are not. It's like death by 1,000 cuts.

And I've thought to myself, given that I've advised people in this sort of situation before, what would I say to her if I was her adviser? And this is what I would say to her. I would say to her that she should publish a comprehensive statement - not just a press conference - a comprehensive written statement which deals with every allegation and then answers it, rebuts it, presumably, and also at the same time publish all of the documents that relate to it. If she's not able ... and that would then set the matter at rest. If it was a satisfactory response, of course.

If she feels she cannot do that, then I think she owes it to our country - because this is starting to affect the credibility of the Government in a very serious way. What she should then do is appoint a senior counsel ...

STEPHEN CONROY: I'm not going to just let him keep talking like this, Emma, for five minutes. Being anything but partisan ... anything but bipartisan.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: ... a senior counsel that conduct an independent inquiry which could be done fairly quickly that would go through all of these matters with a thorough analysis ...

STEPHEN CONROY: To be fair to Malcolm, when Godwin Grech fooled him, he didn't know through fraud ...

EMMA ALBERICI: We understand your position, Mr Turnbull ... we'll give Senator Conroy a chance ... we understand what you think the Prime Minister should do ...

MALCOLM TURNBULL: ... and I can understand why Stephen Conroy wants to talk over the top of me, then I warned you that's what he'd do if we did this. He's not interested in debate.

EMMA ALBERICI: No, no, we understand your point, and now I'm just going to give the senator an opportunity to respond.

STEPHEN CONROY: Look, I reject utterly Malcolm's ... the base, the premise of Malcolm's [inaudible]. When Godwin Grech completely fooled Malcolm with a fraudulent email, at least Malcolm didn't know, to be fair to him, he was completely conned. Julie Bishop says, "I met and talked with" someone she says is a "complete fraudster".

This is what this debate has descended to. No one can find a smoking gun. They've searched for 17 years. The Liberal Party first raised this in the Victorian Parliament in 1995. We're now 17 years on, and Julie Bishop humiliated herself in interviews today trying to prove she's got a smoking gun and all she did was expose that she's got nothing. After 17 years, after a week of questions, she has got absolutely nothing.

EMMA ALBERICI: I wanted to touch on one more issue before we go. I understand, Senator Conroy, that last night you were one of two members of the Cabinet who backed Julia Gillard in her stance to vote against raising the Palestinian status at the UN, is that right?

STEPHEN CONROY: Look, I'm not in a position I can comment on discussions in Cabinet. I haven't before and I'm not going to start now. I support the position that was adopted today in the caucus with the Prime Minister's full endorsement.

EMMA ALBERICI: Because it did look like Julia Gillard was outnumbered in Cabinet because it has emerged that Australia will now abstain from that vote later this week.

EMMA ALBERICI: Well the Prime Minister had a conversation, she said she consulted overnight, she said she consulted this morning and she made her decision in the caucus this morning, and I support that position. But as to who said what to who in the Cabinet, I'm not intending, never have, not going to start now, confirming or denying what people say in Cabinet.

EMMA ALBERICI: Malcolm Turnbull, how should Australia vote on the issue of enhanced Palestinian status at the UN?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, I'd just say, Emma, the Australian Government should stick to its previous policy which has been to oppose this resolution. But isn't it so pathetically sad, the Australian Government, the Gillard Government goes to all of this trouble and expense to get a greater voice in the United Nations, a seat on the Security Council, and its first significant vote since it won that seat on the Security Council is not to say yes or no, but to say nothing, to sit mute. Undecided. Weak and helpless and impotent.

EMMA ALBERICI: This is not a UN Security Council vote though, it's a General Assembly vote.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: I realise it's in the Assembly, but this is a high-profile vote. And what does Australia have to say on this big issue? Nothing. It doesn't have the guts to say it's for it or against it.

EMMA ALBERICI: What do you think: should Australia have been for or against it?

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Australia should have stuck to its previous policy which is to oppose any change to the status of the Palestinian territories with respect to the UN, and there are very good reasons for that because any change should be part of a proper peace arrangement; proper progress towards peace. I mean, look at the Palestinian Territories, with all due respect.

The prime minister in the West Bank can't even go to his house in Gaza for fear of being attacked. You've got Hamas in charge of one side, Fatah in charge of the other, and they hate each other and are basically at war. So look, it's a very unhappy situation, and I don't think that we are going to contribute anything to a reconciliation of the matter there by according a status of a state to an entity, to a series of a couple of territories that really do not have the characteristics of a state.

EMMA ALBERICI: We've run out of time, unfortunately. Senator Stephen Conroy, Malcolm Turnbull, thank you both so much for being there for us.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: Thank you.

STEPHEN CONROY: Thanks very much, Emma.