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"We were like two giddy little kids. We kept saying, ‘Have we gone too far?’ And then we were like, “No, no! Let’s keep going!’”

Director-writer Rian Johnson is talking about working with Daniel Craig on his whodunnit Knives Out, which is the Amex Gala choice at the BFI London Film Festival next month. It’s already a hit from the Toronto Film Festival, currently sitting on a 100 per cent rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Critics agree that while the cast are superb, Johnson’s topical and irreverent script is the star of the show.

Craig plays Benoit Blanc, a PI from Louisiana with terrible taste in coats, hired to investigate the death of murder-mystery writer and self-made millionaire Harlan Thrombey (Christopher Plummer). Thrombey’s family gather in his East Coast mansion and proceed to rip each other to bits. In a typically jolting gag, they speculate about what a Trump-supporting teen does in his spare time. They decide that he probably “masturbates, joylessly, to pictures of dead deer”.

In 2017 Johnson made Star Wars: The Last Jedi, which became the ninth-highest-grossing film of all time. From start to finish, Knives Out feels like an attempt to prove there’s life beyond the multi-billion-dollar brand.

“It was a pure joy to be part of something so dialogue-based,” says Johnson, 45. That’s not a luxury you have on a Star Wars movie. I could indulge myself, writing a lot of words knowing that with actors of this calibre they’d chew the hell out of it.”

There’s a panicked pause. “Obviously,” he adds, “Star Wars actors are very good too.”

When I remind him that Frank Oz (the voice of Yoda) has a small part in Knives Out, Johnson giggles. “You’re right. Technically, this is a Star Wars crossover!”

To say Johnson is a controversial figure in the Star Wars community would be an understatement. There are fans who praise his bold, unexpected choices for the direction of the series. And there are those who claim he’s ruined the franchise, succumbing to political correctness and killing off Luke Skywalker. They even think it’s his fault that following year’s Han Solo prequel underperformed in the box office.

Knives Out sounds like a title Johnson thought up while reading his Twitter feed. He seems sanguine, though, about all the hostility. He doesn’t see The Last Jedi as the most polarising SW film ever. Instead, he views it as the SW film released in the most polarised of times.

“All of us, we’re caught up in this swirling mass of anger. That polarisation, which is so much a part of 2019, that’s what I wanted to put on screen, so we can laugh at it.”

The family in Knives Out contains both staunch conservatives and SJWs (social justice warriors). They row about the caging of migrant children. But, deep down, they have a lot in common. They suck Thrombey dry while pretending they’re autonomous and creative. And they struggle to treat his Latina nurse, Marta (Ana de Armas), as an equal.

Johnson says: “I’m poking fun at the side I’m on.” The family are based, very, very, loosely, on his own. “My grandfather came over from Sweden with nothing. He was always held up to me an example of the American success story. He’s in the home-building business.”

He adores his grandfather, who is still alive (“He’s a movie lover, a big Fellini fan”). Johnson’s point is that money corrupts because it’s so terribly useful.

“My grandfather bankrolled my first film. I was trying to raise money. I needed $400,000. And it just wasn’t happening. So he and some of my aunts and uncles invested in me. I very much come from a place of privilege and, not to get too heavy, I use it to interrogate myself”.

With the character of Marta he was trying to capture how “the help” get treated. “That invisibility in the midst of privilege, that’s drawn straight from life.”

Johnson’s family-funded debut was 2005’s Brick, a Dashiell Hammett-style mystery, starring a young Joseph Gordon Levitt, set in a present day Californian high-school and much concerned with the trafficking of smack. It was a critical hit and established Johnson as a talent to watch.

But his next project bombed. The Brothers Bloom (2008) was a con-man comedy about two Jewish brothers that scampered between the US, Montenegro, Prague, Mexico and St Petersburg. It failed to connect with audiences, despite its fabulous cast which included Rachel Weisz. “She’d just had her first kid, with Aronofsky, when she made that film,” says Johnson. “Then when I met Daniel she came along with their baby. It’s funny how everything comes full circle.”

The must-see films arriving in 2019 6 show all The must-see films arriving in 2019 1/6 The Irishman – November 8 Martin Scorsese teams up with Robert De Niro for the ninth time, delving into the real criminal underworld of post-war America (again) in his new gangster epic, The Irishman. The Netflix production, which gets its theatrical release on November 8, follows the relationship between hitman Frank Sheeran (De Niro) and union leader Jimmy Hoffa (Pacino), who were close friends, examining Sheeran’s ties with the Bufalino crime family and involvement in Hoffa’s disappearance in the mid-70s. The Netflix production receives a cinematic release on November 8. 2/6 Le Mans ‘66 – November 15 Two giants go pedal to the metal in November, with Le Mans ‘66 telling the story of Ford’s fight to end Ferrarri’s dominance in the world of motor racing. Car designer Carroll Shelby (Matt Damon) and driver Ken Miles (Christian Bale) attempt the impossible in this high-octane biopic, which races into cinemas this November. 3/6 Marriage Story – November 15 Mumblecore icon Noah Baumbach’s latest is another one to watch out for, with many calling it his best film since 2005’s The Squid and the Whale. Marriage Story is, contrary to the title, a gruelling look at the divorce process, and promises fantastic performances from Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson. The Standard’s critic David Sexton called it “a fearsome cautionary tale, long and painfully detailed, a divorce horror story to put alongside Kramer vs. Kramer.” The film received a limited release in the UK on November 15, before streaming on Netflix from December 6. 4/6 Frozen 2 – November 22 The sequel to the highest grossing animation ever made arrives this Winter, with sisters Anna and Elsa reuniting once more. Snowman sidekick Olaf is back again too, helping them discover the truth about an ancient mystery in the kingdom. Whether it can live up to the incredible success of the original remains to be seen, but in a year packed with Disney releases, this could well prove to be the biggest of the lot. 5/6 Knives Out – November 29 Detective Daniel Craig leads an investigation into the death of a famous crime writer, found dead at his home following his 85th birthday. Chris Evans, Ana De Armas, Jamie Lee Curtis, Toni Colette and Katherine Langford all star in the film, and it’s up to Craig to find the killer among them. Star Wars: The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson is at the helm. 6/6 Star Wars: The Rise of the Skywalker – December 19 Arguably the most popular film franchise of all time returns this Christmas, taking film lovers to a galaxy far, far away all over again. The third and final instalment of the sequel trilogy will see the Resistance prepare for battle with the First Order once more. With the spectre of Palpatine looming large in the trailer, Daisy Ridley’s Rey has the hopes of the entire universe resting on her shoulders. 1/6 The Irishman – November 8 Martin Scorsese teams up with Robert De Niro for the ninth time, delving into the real criminal underworld of post-war America (again) in his new gangster epic, The Irishman. The Netflix production, which gets its theatrical release on November 8, follows the relationship between hitman Frank Sheeran (De Niro) and union leader Jimmy Hoffa (Pacino), who were close friends, examining Sheeran’s ties with the Bufalino crime family and involvement in Hoffa’s disappearance in the mid-70s. The Netflix production receives a cinematic release on November 8. 2/6 Le Mans ‘66 – November 15 Two giants go pedal to the metal in November, with Le Mans ‘66 telling the story of Ford’s fight to end Ferrarri’s dominance in the world of motor racing. Car designer Carroll Shelby (Matt Damon) and driver Ken Miles (Christian Bale) attempt the impossible in this high-octane biopic, which races into cinemas this November. 3/6 Marriage Story – November 15 Mumblecore icon Noah Baumbach’s latest is another one to watch out for, with many calling it his best film since 2005’s The Squid and the Whale. Marriage Story is, contrary to the title, a gruelling look at the divorce process, and promises fantastic performances from Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson. The Standard’s critic David Sexton called it “a fearsome cautionary tale, long and painfully detailed, a divorce horror story to put alongside Kramer vs. Kramer.” The film received a limited release in the UK on November 15, before streaming on Netflix from December 6. 4/6 Frozen 2 – November 22 The sequel to the highest grossing animation ever made arrives this Winter, with sisters Anna and Elsa reuniting once more. Snowman sidekick Olaf is back again too, helping them discover the truth about an ancient mystery in the kingdom. Whether it can live up to the incredible success of the original remains to be seen, but in a year packed with Disney releases, this could well prove to be the biggest of the lot. 5/6 Knives Out – November 29 Detective Daniel Craig leads an investigation into the death of a famous crime writer, found dead at his home following his 85th birthday. Chris Evans, Ana De Armas, Jamie Lee Curtis, Toni Colette and Katherine Langford all star in the film, and it’s up to Craig to find the killer among them. Star Wars: The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson is at the helm. 6/6 Star Wars: The Rise of the Skywalker – December 19 Arguably the most popular film franchise of all time returns this Christmas, taking film lovers to a galaxy far, far away all over again. The third and final instalment of the sequel trilogy will see the Resistance prepare for battle with the First Order once more. With the spectre of Palpatine looming large in the trailer, Daisy Ridley’s Rey has the hopes of the entire universe resting on her shoulders.

Undeterred by reviews which called The Brothers Bloom disappointing and smug, Johnson made the 2012 sci-fi thriller Looper with Gordon-Levitt, again, along with Bruce Willis and Emily Blunt. In his review for the Standard, David Sexton praised how Johnson was able to revise “the time-travel thriller with remarkable originality and zest”. It’s now viewed as a sci-fi classic.

Then came The Last Jedi. Lucasfilm were so happy with Johnson’s film they’ve hired him to helm a whole new Star Wars trilogy. He says, “The truth is they’re still figuring out their schedule, their game plan, so if it’s possible for me to squeeze in another film before or while working on that, I will.”

He adds that, while making The Brothers Bloom, he raced around Eastern Europe, “pretending to be a student film-maker. Maybe, some day, I’ll go back to that kind of film-making”.

I ask him how he thinks he’ll be remembered and he chuckles, “I doubt I will be remembered at all.”

Who says you need a big ego to conquer Hollywood? It turns out that modesty and wit are the perfect weapons.

Screen Talk: Rian Johnson is at BFI Southbank, SE1, at 3pm on Oct 8; the Amex Gala of Knives Out is at Odeon Luxe Leicester Square, WC2, on Oct 8; the BFI London Film Festival (bfi. org.uk/lff) runs from Oct 2 to 13. Knives Out goes on general UK release on Nov 29