Brewers Profile Joined August 2010 23 Posts Last Edited: 2010-12-06 18:56:22 #1 mod edit: beware! obviously there will be GSL spoilers



All the blames for cheesy strategies in T vs Z are on fire at least in Korea



TSL_Rain, who knocked out Nestea in GSL3 quarter final, is taking all the blames and shames from Korean SC2 communities for not being as qualified as Nestea overall and advancing to semi final with only cheesy all-ins.



He has reached semi final beating all the opponents mostly by 2 rax or 4 rax with scv+bunker all ins since his first round (but not all games).





Interestingly, TSL_Rain immediately posted "APOLOGY" on the biggest SC2 community in Korea. What he says was mainly about not showing as good games as the expectation for quarter final and matchups with Nestea. He certainly didn't want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that.



His coach in team TSL responded to it right away. 'Don't blame but cheer him up for his marine micro against the best defensive zerg 'Nestea' was his point.





Okay, The following is what I think about the issue.



In T v Z, early all-in marine+SCVs is not too good to watch paying $19.99 per season.



Nestea is a better player than TSL_Rain when he goes into mid-games. I, as a fan who thinks it's worth paying money for GSL, want to see more quality games than early all-ins that players use because they don't know how to beat other ways. Or it might be true that terran players do not know the other ways because they use early all-ins all the time.



Regardless, the quality of quarter final was not as satisfactory as GSL1 and 2 from fan's point of view.





Now, as for TSL_Rain as a pro-gamer, taking all the blames for advancing to semi final as a worse player than Nestea, I don't think he should be that targeted.



What people really want to talk to is the BLIZZARD balancing team. I don't want to talk about the balance here but people get mad when certain balance patches go wrong and mess up the whole game quality. Just think about why most terrans do all-ins at least one of their matches. Games are set so intense and motivating to win by cheesing.





TSL_Rain shouldn't be the one people target at and blame. Or other cheesy players just like bitbybit.prime shouldn't be blamed too. The target has to be why players go only all-ins and reduce the quality of games.



Once an opponent knows what the cheeser is going to do, the game should be favored to who knows what the cheeser is going to do. But now, it's certainly not. At least Terran players have very higher chances of winning by cheesing than going into mid-meta games. Who would work unnecessarily harder? All the blames for cheesy strategies in T vs Z are on fire at least in KoreaTSL_Rain, who knocked out Nestea in GSL3 quarter final, is taking all the blames and shames from Korean SC2 communities for not being as qualified as Nestea overall and advancing to semi final with only cheesy all-ins.He has reached semi final beating all the opponents mostly by 2 rax or 4 rax with scv+bunker all ins since his first round (but not all games).Interestingly, TSL_Rain immediately posted "APOLOGY" on the biggest SC2 community in Korea. What he says was mainly about not showing as good games as the expectation for quarter final and matchups with Nestea. He certainly didn't want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that.His coach in team TSL responded to it right away. 'Don't blame but cheer him up for his marine micro against the best defensive zerg 'Nestea' was his point.Okay, The following is what I think about the issue.In T v Z, early all-in marine+SCVs is not too good to watch paying $19.99 per season.Nestea is a better player than TSL_Rain when he goes into mid-games. I, as a fan who thinks it's worth paying money for GSL, want to see more quality games than early all-ins that players use because they don't know how to beat other ways. Or it might be true that terran players do not know the other ways because they use early all-ins all the time.Regardless, the quality of quarter final was not as satisfactory as GSL1 and 2 from fan's point of view.Now, as for TSL_Rain as a pro-gamer, taking all the blames for advancing to semi final as a worse player than Nestea, I don't think he should be that targeted.What people really want to talk to is the BLIZZARD balancing team. I don't want to talk about the balance here but people get mad when certain balance patches go wrong and mess up the whole game quality. Just think about why most terrans do all-ins at least one of their matches. Games are set so intense and motivating to win by cheesing.TSL_Rain shouldn't be the one people target at and blame. Or other cheesy players just like bitbybit.prime shouldn't be blamed too. The target has to be why players go only all-ins and reduce the quality of games.Once an opponent knows what the cheeser is going to do, the game should be favored to who knows what the cheeser is going to do. But now, it's certainly not. At least Terran players have very higher chances of winning by cheesing than going into mid-meta games. Who would work unnecessarily harder?

Nagano Profile Blog Joined July 2010 United States 1157 Posts #2 Might want to put this in a spoiler please. “The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.”

Welmu Profile Blog Joined November 2009 Finland 3294 Posts #3 I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat... Progamer twitter.com/welmu1 | facebook.com/Welmu11 | twitch.com/Welmu1

50bani Profile Blog Joined June 2009 Romania 480 Posts #4 I stand by my opinion:

TSLrain played it correctly if he was playing to win. You have to play tvz like that, macro games get you nowhere as Terran I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.

Meta Profile Blog Joined June 2003 United States 6063 Posts Last Edited: 2010-12-06 18:17:34 #5



edit: I can see the frustration in the eyes of the people who paid to watch this tournament. All I can say is: it sucks to be you. At least you got clide vs leenock in the ro64 right? I would blame Gom's prize distribution. For ever match you win, the next match you play for more than double the prize money of the previous match. Who wouldn't abuse cheesy allins for that kind of cash?edit: I can see the frustration in the eyes of the people who paid to watch this tournament. All I can say is: it sucks to be you. At least you got clide vs leenock in the ro64 right? Pure, immaculate, clean, omnicidal god machine

1Eris1 Profile Joined September 2010 United States 5797 Posts Last Edited: 2010-12-06 18:14:42 #6 Honestly, leave the guy alone. He said in his interview he hadn't had time to practice that much. He also knows NesTea is a better player then him.



If you had 85 grand on the line, and had a higher chance of getting it by cheesing your oppenent rather then playing straight up macro, you would cheese.



Sorry the GSL isn't what everyone always wants. I for one, (even though I am a zerg player) am glad we might have a TvP final. Although Im really sad about fruitdealer losing =( Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!

heishe Profile Blog Joined June 2009 Germany 2235 Posts Last Edited: 2010-12-06 18:19:16 #7 On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote:

I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat...



sure, but nestea winning wouldn't have made the games any more exciting :D not to mention the fact that when playing against these things, you do a lot of things more or less in the dark and tehre are a lot of very blurry lines to be stepped over very easily which cost you the win. sure, but nestea winning wouldn't have made the games any more exciting :D not to mention the fact that when playing against these things, you do a lot of things more or less in the dark and tehre are a lot of very blurry lines to be stepped over very easily which cost you the win. If you value your soul, never look into the eye of a horse. Your soul will forever be lost in the void of the horse.

shabinka Profile Joined October 2008 United States 468 Posts #8 On December 07 2010 03:10 Nagano wrote:

Might want to put this in a spoiler please.

Put what in a spoiler? If you're reading this thread you assume you're going to find out about Rain's GSL 3 experience... Put what in a spoiler? If you're reading this thread you assume you're going to find out about Rain's GSL 3 experience...

Chill Profile Blog Joined January 2005 Australia 25649 Posts #9 As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.



I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity. Moderator

Raiznhell Profile Joined January 2010 Canada 786 Posts #10 Didn't read the whole thread but if people are flaming Rain...they shouldn't. I do believe that Terran cannot compete against Zerg late game especially against a player like Nestea BUT that's not my argument for not flaming him.



I simply believe that what he did to beat Nestea was intuitively smart and similar to how Nazgul knocked out Idra in MLG. If a macro monster like Nestea is going to FE and outmacro you what you should do is try to all-in kill him early it's just the smartest strategic choice to make. I mean at least Rain gave macro games a shot and got completely stomped by Nestea so he changed his game up. Cake or Death?

Chill Profile Blog Joined January 2005 Australia 25649 Posts Last Edited: 2010-12-06 18:16:16 #11 On December 07 2010 03:14 rawk wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 07 2010 03:10 Nagano wrote:

Might want to put this in a spoiler please.

Put what in a spoiler? If you're reading this thread you assume you're going to find out about Rain's GSL 3 experience... Put what in a spoiler? If you're reading this thread you assume you're going to find out about Rain's GSL 3 experience...

It's not clear what round the spoilers are for. Also, reading "GSL" and "Rain" in a title, you can already figure out that he won. That's what happened to me - I'm in this thread and I haven't seen the games yet because of this. It's not clear what round the spoilers are for. Also, reading "GSL" and "Rain" in a title, you can already figure out that he won. That's what happened to me - I'm in this thread and I haven't seen the games yet because of this. Moderator

Blobskillz Profile Joined October 2010 Germany 548 Posts #12 really guys this is not the fault of the players.



The gamestrategies didnt settle down yet, so obviously a lot of rushes and that sort of stuff will work really well. That's how the game works. And really you cant blame both of them seeing this many rushes now wil lresult in the game changing towards another playstyle by the Zergs to counter it and so on. So really guys enjoy the show and dont hate on people that do what works.

Lumin Profile Joined August 2010 United States 204 Posts #13 The way the current meta-game is set, Top Zergs are rarely ever beaten if allowed to push and macro into late game. Their weakness is early game, everyone knows this general concept.



All the guy wanted to do was to capitalize on that weakness. Do I blame him? Nope! Like 50bani said above me, he's playing to win. IMNestea didn't have to 15 Hatch every game, greedy build, he gets punished!

Sworn Profile Blog Joined January 2010 Canada 914 Posts #14 The reason why terrans do semi allin or allin in plays isn't because they want to it's beacause late game terran sucks so hard. Trying to beat a zerg late game just isn't going to happen unless you did something big early game to get the advantage. Also it's not an impossible push to hold off so I don't know why blizzard would need to get involved to nerf something that doesn't even need to be touched. "Duty is heavy as a mountain, death is light as a feather." CJ Entus Fighting! <3 Effort

Jakalo Profile Blog Joined March 2009 Latvia 2350 Posts #15 Whenever a less known and liked player wins important series against fan favourite there is outcry in forums, that has benn so in BW that will be so in SC2.

And that is natural, everyone wants their favourite to advance and yes it sucks there are no zerg left in GSL, but people have to get hold of themselves and not make every single live report thread into balance discussion (or call upset winner names), have faith in players to figure it out. Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be.

Chill Profile Blog Joined January 2005 Australia 25649 Posts #16 On December 07 2010 03:16 Lumin wrote:

The way the current meta-game is set, Top Zergs are rarely ever beaten if allowed to push and macro into late game. Their weakness is early game, everyone knows this general concept.



All the guy wanted to do was to capitalize on that weakness. Do I blame him? Nope! Like 50bani said above me, he's playing to win. IMNestea didn't have to 15 Hatch every game, greedy build, he gets punished!

How is this meta-game at all? Using the word "game" makes 999999x more sense here, there's nothing meta about "this strategy is good at this point in this matchup". NOTHING. How is this meta-game at all? Using the word "game" makes 999999x more sense here, there's nothing meta about "this strategy is good at this point in this matchup". NOTHING. Moderator

wassbix Profile Joined October 2009 Canada 499 Posts #17 Just cause people paid 19.99 to watch games, it shouldn't mean a player should be pressured to play a unfavorable game for themselves. If he feels like his best chances of winning are early game allins, why wouldn't he do it?



It would either mean



A) Nestea was ill prepared for the cheese

or

B) Balance is off and that Nestea despite being prepared and the "better" player could not stop it



If the case is B then that means we shouldn't blame the player but instead blizzard for bad balance.



Seriously, its insane that we're getting angry at players for trying to win; this is their job, unlike BW pros, they don't have steady salaries and their only form of income is winning tournaments.

ultramafia Profile Joined August 2010 219 Posts #18 everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.



As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.



Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. 毒爆虫 | CJ Entus fight

frd Profile Blog Joined August 2010 France 164 Posts #19 Interestingly, TSL_Rain immediately posted "APOLOGY" on the biggest SC2 community in Korea. What he says was mainly about not showing as good games as the expectation for quarter final and matchups with Nestea. He certainly didn't want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that.



Now that's just off the charts ridiculous. As a player, he shouldn't have to concern himself with the spectacle. His craft is winning matches.

Besides, even from a spectacle standpoint, these kinds of builds can in turn make for very exciting situations if they're defended. Case in point: Nestea defending MK's all-ins during the last GSL finals. Now that's just off the charts ridiculous. As a player, he shouldn't have to concern himself with the spectacle. His craft is winning matches.Besides, even from a spectacle standpoint, these kinds of builds can in turn make for very exciting situations if they're defended. Case in point: Nestea defending MK's all-ins during the last GSL finals.

regulator_mk Profile Joined June 2010 United States 126 Posts #20 Rain's apology makes sense to me. He's sorry you're not getting your $20 worth. But he's not about to give up thousands of dollars to make you feel better about your $20.

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