Chris Reed is in a good mood. It’s a sunny morning when we meet, sunny enough to sit outside a Southeast London cafe (“shit, Transition’s just down the road from here isn’t it?”), the sort of day when it’s nice to kick back and chat anyway. But the man more commonly known as Plastician wouldn’t need any encouragement to hold forth – he’s got a lot going on and wants the world to know it. What’s prompted the interview is the new reissue album of his very earliest tracks from the dawn of grime and dubstep, mostly released under the name Plasticman (until he became aware that there was a Canadian techno producer out there with a strikingly similar name). This would be interesting in itself – his history has been as a uniquely skilled bridge-builder, both between grime and dubstep and then outwards, firstly to the experimental electronica world, then to the mainstream via the US hip hop world, and those tracks stand the test of time, fitting perfectly into a climate newly receptive to grime’s dancefloor qualities. But there’s a whole other level added by an absolutely killer line-up of remixers he’s marshalled (he’s a skilled cat-herder too), which serve as an illustration of how diverse his interests are now. Where other foundational figures have moved towards house and techno of one sort or another (Skream, Pinch, Loefah), or back into underground dubstep (Hatcha), Plastician has expanded in all directions, dropping tempo constraints of any kind and forging strong connections with the Los Angeles weird beat and neo-trap scenes. It’s a move that’s baffled quite a few listeners since he started it while in LA in early 2013, but as we’ll see, it seems finally to be paying dividends.

So what’s made you revisit the Plasticman days? Part of it is that most of it’s only out on vinyl. I was one of the first people from our scene to move on to just digital and take away the vinyl – so this stuff was separate for that reason. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do, really, but then because it’s ten years since most of those tracks came out, I felt it’s a good time to do it. I’ve been thinking about doing it for two or three years, I haven’t released an album as such for years, I get hit up for them old records and tracks all the time, and it’s taken that amount of time to get here, to get all the old files, to talk to Sarah Soulja about releasing the old Soulja tunes, and the Road release, okaying things with people, and that coinciding with the ten year thing made it feel like a good time. Then the remix project came in, so that felt like a good tie-in – but getting remixes from 15, 20 people takes a long time and I’m still waiting on a good few of them which is why it’s coming out now rather than a year ago. It’s just got to the point where I couldn’t wait any longer, everything I had to do has been ready for months and months, so here it is! And was the fact that instrumental grime is in demand now a consideration? I think that was pure luck for me actually. When I first started about doing this properly, things weren’t where we are now with this whole instrumental grime thing – I’m quite lucky that it has taken this long, because if I’d done this a year ago I don’t think it would have had this impact. For people on the outside looking in now, this would be the ideal time to release any old music from this era, so it’s worked out well in that sense. It’s going to be more welcomed by the wider audience, people who don’t necessarily know the originals will be able to listen to it from a different angle, it’ll make a bit more sense – rather than putting it next to this high production value, big room sounds that maybe they’d been used to before. This stuff’s much more stripped back and simple, but the fact that stripped back and simple is working again, means even though it’s 10, 12 years since those tracks came out a lot of them work really well in sets based on this new grime wave. So yeah it’s perfect for me really. Did you have a sense of what it was you were making at the time? You had feet in dubstep and grime probably more than anyone, so what did you call your own tunes? Well, coming out of UK garage, it was really difficult to get a foot in that scene. I was only a DJ anyway, which made it even more difficult as you really needed to be a producer if you were going to do anything. So when the grime thing started to happen and everything became a bit simple and, for want of a better word, kiddy – that’s how the garage scene looked at it anyway, kids making shit music, it was looked down upon and frowned upon by garage heads – that opened the door for people like me who really didn’t know what they were doing on Fruityloops. I heard ‘Pulse X’ and thought “I could do stuff like that!” So for a while I was doing this 8-bar kind of sound, and it took a few months before I sent something to Slimzee. I’d been giving bits to Hatcha but that didn’t really fit with the dark 2-step and very early dubstep he was playing, it was still a little bit kiddy in that sense. I didn’t mind, it was 8-bar grime, in my head that’s all it was, so I sent this track to Slimzee, ‘Venom’, and that became my first release. Then through playing on Rinse, and the linkup with Sarah shortly after for the Road release and the Soulja one, that put me on the FWD>> radar. When Sarah first asked me to play at FWD>> I was a bit scared, because I was a FWD>> head, I went down there because I loved the early dubstep stuff and I’d been playing that with the grime stuff in my DJ sets. I was worried about playing grime at FWD>> because then the sound was very tribal, very deep, Horsepower and Zed Bias, or very early Skream & Benga, this tribal sound somewhere between grime and Wookie. I just felt my 8-bar stuff was not going to run in there, back in the day then it was all about dubplate.net forums and people were looking down on that stuff. I didn’t really want to come in as that grime guy, so I started making what I thought was FWD>> music – grime, but structured like a dubstep record: a 32-bar intro and a drop, then a breakdown and another drop. Back then grime was literally eight bars, switch, eight bars, switch, nothing beyond 8-bar records. As complicated as it got was ‘Eskimo’ which had 16s and eights, and a couple of different patterns going on. I was trying to take that 8-bar sound and build it like an instrumental record – so that’s how I found my feet between the two scenes, I guess, because I was trying to build tunes for people expecting to hear it as an instrumental without an MC over it. “I found a couple of songs of the people they were talking about, but I couldn’t see the comparison at all – I was just like “but that’s not garage!”” But prior to that you were presumably writing specifically for grime DJs and MCs – what kind of response had you had from that scene? Well it was a bit difficult because I was in South, I was detached from the early grime, people knew my name but they didn’t really know much about me because I wasn’t hanging about in Rhythm Division, I was in Big Apple. I would meet people who were dropping records at Big Apple occasionally – but then once I started my own label the reverse happened, I was distributing my own records so I met a lot of people. I think it was ‘Cha’, the first one where that happened, because my early stuff I’d been using another company – but when I started distributed my own stuff, because I’d worked in distribution and I knew all the shops and who to sell to, I’d start taking my records around in the car, and I’d go into Rhythm Division so I met Slimzee face-to-face, I met Jammer, and quite a lot of the East guys, just to say hello. And then the more I got into that grime thing the more I realised I needed to be cutting dubs in different places, so now and again I would go to cut at Music House, and I met Skepta there, I met Tubby and Footsie and we would swap dubs. It was difficult at first, but once I realised what I needed to be doing to integrate myself into that side of the sound it was OK. Of course I grew up with all the dubstep guys, I was getting beats from them, they were playing my stuff and I was playing theirs because I knew them all, before any of us got big. But on the grime side of things I had to go and meet, turn up with my CDs and be all like “hi, I’m Plasticman, I did that Slimzee record and I’ve done this and I’m playing at Sidewinder, and can I get some dubs because I’m on Rinse now…” Were you aware that you were being played outside of dubstep and grime too, by experimental or techno DJs? I had no idea at all. Nothing. The whole Richie Hawtin thing, I had no idea of anything beyond what stemmed out of garage. I came to underground music very late – I would have been 16, 17 when I started listening to pirate radio, and by the time I was producing and releasing records I’d have been 20 maybe. In that four years, and this is before the internet was a hub for music knowledge, I just had the record shop and pirates, so I didn’t listen to anything outside of garage – which includes the beginnings of dubstep and grime, because I deemed that to be garage at the time. So I didn’t know who these techno DJs were, who these producers were, and I remember Neil Joliffe who worked at Ammunition and had knowledge of music that was just vast, sent me a link to this forum post, which linked to an article someone had written, and they were comparing me to Kraftwerk and something else, and I had no idea who these people are. And Neil said “it’s true, you sound like this and this, and you sampled this record in that thing, so you must know who they’re talking about” but I said “I just got the sound from this sample pack that I downloaded off an internet forum, I don’t know what the sounds in it are, the sound’s just called ‘Chirp’, that’s all I know.” I didn’t know who I was sampling, I didn’t know anything. I remember reading this really long and detailed review of my Slimzos release, they were talking about the b-side and they said “Croydon techno” and deeming it to be this new wave, yet I didn’t think of it as anything but garage. So I did a bit of Googling, it took a while because as I said the internet didn’t have everything at your fingertips like it does now, there was certainly no YouTube, but eventually I found a couple of songs of the people they were talking about, but I couldn’t see the comparison at all – I was just like “but that’s not garage!” I listened to Kraftwerk and thought, that just sounds crazy, I don’t know how that’s anything to do with anything I’m doing. Now it totally makes sense but back then I was just young, if it wasn’t garage I just didn’t get it. If it wasn’t garage it wasn’t anything to do with my music. My music was garage because Slimzee and Hatcha and people played it, and anything else was just another world. A lot of people in grime did bring older music to bear on it, though – I know, for example, Terror Danjah had a grounding in electro, funk and suchlike from his older brothers and sisters… Well that’s the thing, I was the oldest in my family. My brother has no interest in music, my mum and dad listened to pop music – my mum listens to some reggae but not sitting in the house listening to it all day. We’d listen to Capital FM in the car on the way to school, and I’d listen to Capital, maybe Kiss sometimes, so my musical horizons were non-existent.

So when Rephlex got in touch, that must’ve been completely alien? Yeah, that was the first time I had heard anything or seen anything that wasn’t garage. The first time I’d been to an event that wasn’t a garage event – there weren’t even really grime or dubstep events back then, I’d played the odd grime event in Milton Keynes and places, I’d been to the odd Eskimo Dance, but that was it. Sidewinder was really a garage event that put some grime on… then there was FWD>>. But that was it, I’d not really been to any kind of club other than those or cheesy club nights in Croydon. Then I ended up going on tour with Rephlex very early in 2004, before the Grime album had even come out, on tour with Soundmurderer and Bogdan Raczynski; I was with MRK1 and we’d just look at each other like “what the fuck is this?” People who seemed like they’d live or die for the Aphex Twin freaking out to 300bpm music, Soundmurderer playing his mad jungle cut-ups and Miami bass and I was… [stutters, lost for words] I mean I liked it, but I was hearing it for the first time, and I had to get used to it. That opened my ears to other styles, definitely – bit by bit songs would jump out where I’d go “that one’s fucking cool”, then Grant [Wilson-Claridge] at Rephlex hooked me up with loads of the releases, all the Aphex stuff, the ‘Analord’ series… Then I did loads of gigs with Luke Vibert, Ed DMX and all those guys and they’d introduce me to stuff, Ed DMX put me on to 80s electro and suddenly I realised, OK, I used to listen to stuff like this when I was at school but I didn’t know what it was. So I loved this music and he showed me more, even sent me zips of mp3s of stuff he thought I’d like, and I’d use that to find other stuff, because even in Croydon we had Beano’s records [one of the biggest second-hand vinyl shops in Europe, now closed] and I’d find the section and actually know what I was looking for now where before I never really did. So just working among that crew of DJs and people opened my eyes and ears to so much different music, and gave me new respect for it, for electronic music as a whole, as well. That first Rephlex at The End thing was mental in its contrast – the Croydon boys in one room, just a dark room, hoodies up, then the Rephlex guys in the other with strobes, coloured lights, everyone on one and raving like nutters… It was amazing that gig, because I’d never played anything as big as that in London before. I’d never been to The End either – I remember all the hype that there was a grime gig at The End and I didn’t really know what that meant. I remember getting there really well because MRK1 and Virus Syndicate had come down from Manchester, and they were staying in Battersea which is a like 25 minute drive into where The End is. It was a Friday or Saturday night, they got down really late – they’re always late them boys – I met them at their hotel and we called a taxi. The taxi driver was this really young guy in a Merc, and we needed to get there in 15 minutes which is typical Virus. I like to get there a good hour before, I’m fussy like that, and I was stressing going “we’re not getting there in 15 minutes, we’re not,” but they went, almost jokingly, to this guy “if you get us there in 15 minutes we’ll pay you double” and he fucking did! He drove like we were in a film. Literally I was laughing the whole way because it was scary – he was cutting through traffic, through red lights, I cannot believe he didn’t get pulled over along the way because this was central London, but somehow we got in there just two minutes after we were supposed to start. I was expecting to be there half an hour into the set, but no, I got on, and I remember putting on the first record and just feeling amazing – seeing all the faces from down at FWD>> representing because this was a big deal. Everyone who was a part of that scene, which was maybe 150 people, 200 absolute tops, turned out for that night, and it was a turning point I think. So how did you bring together these different strands in your own work? Well, Grant always said to me “just do you, don’t feel you have to play for our crowd or anything” – they just wanted to represent this sound to their crowd – so I just thought “wicked!” It’d be “play like you play at FWD>>, play like you play on Rinse,” and I did. On the tour, I remember the first ever record I played in the States was in New York, at the Knitting Factory, I played Terror Danjah ‘Creepy Crawler’, the Frontline mix, and I don’t think anyone there had heard anything like it before. Grant, though, he referred to it as “lovemaking music” and I was like, “REALLY?” I thought it was dark and fucking aggy, but compared to some of the stuff he was putting out on Rephlex I guess it really was because it was straightforward and you can dance to it, it wasn’t mental or gabba-ey – because some of the stuff Bogdan was playing on that tour was straight-up gabba! So yes it was funny hearing it in that context, but I was just doing me. At the time it was grime, and dubstep, the back end of garage like Zed Bias and Steve Gurley – then shortly after that there was just so much grime and dubstep that I was just playing that for the foreseeable. That was it for me. “Grant Wilson-Claridge referred to it as “lovemaking music” and I was like, “REALLY?”” But you did keep Terrorhythm fairly eclectic – and of course doubly so now. Is there a direct line from playing with Rephlex DJs to now? Yeah. The whole thing of being on Rephlex, I did find myself playing some really weird gigs for two or three years. I’d be doing gigs in London that were pretty similar, grime, or dubstep, or both, or garage-grime-dubstep-house – always bass oriented. Then I’d have these little gigs in France or wherever with this Rephlexian sort of vibe and find myself with Ed DMX or someone, so that kept me hearing stuff that wasn’t just garage, dubstep or grime. I loved listening to pirate radio, and I’d hear different DJs playing stuff, and buy records I liked even if they weren’t for my sets – just hearing normal radio like Radio 1 too, I’d get led to different audiences. So I’ve always been checking for other stuff but because I came through the dubstep and grime thing I felt I had this platform on Rinse to rep something very particular, a proper primetime slot on Rinse and I thought yep, this is it, I’m really repping a scene here. So I’d play anything that I liked that was from grime or dubstep and I didn’t feel it was my place to represent that. I almost felt like a journalist, but as a DJ, so I treated the radio show not as “this is my set” and more as “this is what’s going on right now in dubstep and grime”. That was that for years, and it wasn’t until the tail end of 2012 when I’d been touring with a few people, I’d done some big shows in America at festivals, and I started wandering around to check out what else was happening on other stages. I know America always gets bad press, like EDM, it’s all shit and all that – but I’d find pockets of really amazing stuff that was happening here and there, artists like Lazer Sword, people like that. I’d grown up on hip hop, and even the crunk stuff later on, so electronic hip hop to me made total sense… Well you’d already broached the bass music / hip hop crossover – and made early connections with the US scene – with your LA tapes… Yeah, the whole Snoop Dogg thing that came along in ’09, well I was never going to pass that up! A lot of people frowned upon that, but for someone of my age – well, ‘Doggy Style’ was the first album I ever bought with my own money, it was the first time I ever heard someone swear on a record, you know? I was 12 years old, hearing someone swearing on a record was a novelty – but I still love that record, and when I had the opportunity to work with someone that was one of my first musical experiences or idols, that was amazing. Working with his people on that mixtape was a great experience. And before that I’d done the Om Unit release on Terrorhythm, in ’08, which I’d signed in ’07. I knew him as 2 Tall before that, because I was a playing a couple of tracks from his album he’d released. As I say I still had my ear to other stuff, but I wouldn’t play it unless it was 140; he’d had a couple of tracks on his last album as 2Tall that were that tempo through, so I hit him up through Charles, now Joker’s manager, who was working at Zzonked the PR company then. He sent me some stuff under the Om Unit alias, and I just thought “Yes, this is it! This is interesting experimental electronic bassy hip hop, this is what I’ve been waiting for, this is what I want to put out!” I know it was going to be a bit weird for people who follow the label but it works for me. It doesn’t matter about the tempo, it just fits with the other Terrorhythm stuff – we’d put out Joker and Maniac and we were putting dubstep stuff like Crissy Criss at that time, and this was contrasting but it still worked for me. I saw that as my opportunity to represent more of the stuff, not just that I’m playing, but what I like because it’s my label! And I did find time to play it towards the back of my sets at things like FWD>>, things that were a bit more open to “gwarn, have a go, play something different”. If I thought I could get away with it, I would, I’d chuck in hip hop records at the end, old electro stuff that Ed had put me onto, anything that I thought might work at the tail end of all the dubstep and grime I’d been playing. So there was quite a broad span by this point… as well as the experimental end, you had no compunction about signing or playing the lairiest tear-out dubstep. I liked a lot of it! And I played a lot of it! Then when I started playing with P Money a lot, he loved that, so that ramped it up. The thing with playing with MCs on tour is it’s half your set and half theirs – and before P Money it was Skepta and JME and Tinchy Stryder, I’ve always worked with some MCs – so as much as I can select in the way I want to do, I’ve got to play what brings out the best in them. When I was playing with P, that was when Dr P. ‘Sweet Shop’ had just come out and he loved that, also I was playing in America a lot and it was really going off there, so between that and my sets in London with P, that was the vibe I’d drop. And we had a lot of fun doing those gigs as well – but in my radio shows I’d contrast it with the grime stuff, with other things… But then yeah, the tail end of 2012, beginning of 2013, when I moved out to the States for a bit and I had all those guests on my show that I knew out there – Gaslamp Killer come on, Jerome LOL, Castle, but also Skrillex and Kill The Noise and Brillz and Mayhem &* Antiserum and all the trap guys, all this stuff that I knew of but had never seen “in action” so to speak, I got to see them DJ it, I got to connect with what they’re doing. And that’s when my show began to represent more than just what’s going on in grime and dubstep. I’d always thought it would be cool if I could ever do that, but I never felt confident it would be welcomed – and I do think for a little while a lot of people were unhappy that I was broadening the sound I was representing, I definitely lost a few listeners that only wanted to hear that 140bpm sound. But at the same time, it was more representative of me as a listener, of my ear for sound, and I decided while I was out there, “OK, when it’s just me playing again, without all these guests, I’m still going to represent all these shit that I like”. Seeing DJs like Kastle, and particularly Gaslamp Killer come on and play like they did, I just felt “Why don’t I just do this? I CAN do this.” Gaslamp Killer is a great example because he’ll play the most bro of brostep… But then he’ll play the Beatles or some other psychedelic rock thing… …and people who’d look down on brostep normally will give it a pass, they’ll think it’s cool. Yeah! And I wanted that, I was envious. I thought “he’s on my show, doing what I should be doing!” I thought “If I can do this, then why don’t I?” because there’s so much out there that I like. And yeah, OK, for a few months, it was a bit of a jumble sale after I came back from LA and I was playing on Rinse, it was like “here’s all the stuff that I love” but it didn’t flow. I didn’t really know how to make it work as a mix, I didn’t know how to present it. It took about six months and I think my bookings faltered a little bit as a result because my show did sound a bit like I don’t actually know what I’m doing…