michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today: Two years ago, he called Donald Trump a “kook,” a “bigot,” “crazy” and “unfit for office.” Now he lavishes praise on the president at every turn. What happened to Lindsey Graham? It’s Tuesday, March 5.

archived recording (speaker 1)

I mean, you don’t even know which way the wind is blowing with this guy.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Jeff Sessions.

archived recording (speaker 1)

Well, I’m talking, actually, about Lindsey Graham.

archived recording (speaker 2)

Oh, yeah.

archived recording (speaker 1)

And who is he? [MUSIC]

archived recording (speaker 3)

I don’t know what happened to the Lindsey Graham that I knew, because he hasn’t been showing up lately.

archived recording (speaker 4)

He seems to be adrift morally, politically.

archived recording (speaker 5)

I think it’s mystifying to a lot of people. It’s certainly mystifying to me.

archived recording (speaker 6)

What happened to Lindsey Graham, do you think?

archived recording (speaker 7)

What’s happened to Lindsey Graham?

archived recording (speaker 8)

I mean, what happened to Lindsey Graham?

archived recording (speaker 9)

What happened to Lindsey Graham?

mark leibovich

The thing about Lindsey Graham is he’s one of these figures in Washington that comes with kind of a non-verbal reaction at this point.

michael barbaro

Mark Leibovich wrote about Graham for The New York Times Magazine.

mark leibovich

You mention his name any time over the last six months to 12 months, and you get this combination grimace, shrug, follow-up question — yeah, what’s going on? And in all the sort of Trump-era Republican mysteries, when we ask ourselves, what happened to this person, why is this person changing his or her mind so much now about Donald Trump, Lindsey Graham kind of is the signature mystery of the Trump era as far as what these conversions look like. Lindsey Graham grew up in a very small town in South Carolina, the town of Central, South Carolina. And his parents owned a bar there called the Sanitary Cafe. And not only did they own it, but they lived in an apartment right behind the bar. They shared a restroom with the patrons of the bar. And he went from there — he was the first member of his family to go to college. His parents died when he was in his early 20s. He joined the military. He eventually got into politics and then was elected to Congress and, eventually, was elected to the Senate, where, over the years, he’s become known as kind of a reliable conservative, pretty partisan Republican.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

I’m Lindsey Graham, and I approve this message.

mark leibovich

Through the Bush years.

archived recording

Opposed Obamacare from day one, voting against it.

mark leibovich

Through the Obama years.

archived recording

He led the fight on Benghazi, demanding answers —

mark leibovich

He was known as someone who was a truth-teller within his caucus.

archived recording

He’s been a champion for our military, our veterans, and a fighter for South Carolina jobs.

mark leibovich

He was seen, much like McCain was, as someone who you could have a conversation with, who you could deal with.

archived recording

All eyes on Lindsey Graham and another Democratic member trying to come up with some sort of bipartisan compromise.

mark leibovich

And really won a lot of bipartisan respect, a lot of respect across the aisles. Took on some pretty unpopular issues within his caucus.

michael barbaro

Like what?

archived recording (lindsey graham)

80 percent of the people would like to see these kids have a better life. 80 percent of the people would like to begin to fix our broken immigration system.

mark leibovich

Immigration.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

We won’t be debating about the science. We’ll be debating about the solutions.

mark leibovich

Climate change. I mean, he was a big dealmaker. He, to this day, is remembered — and remembered is sort of a key word, because it’s very past tense — as someone who could speak some truth to power and someone who was seen as a reasonable independent conservative.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

Let me tell you about Senator McCain.

mark leibovich

And he also was like a sidekick, kind of the Gilligan to John McCain’s Skipper.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

He would die for this country. I love him to death.

mark leibovich

He was always at his side. The two of them had sort of similar senses of humor.

archived recording (john mccain)

The reason why Lindsey is not married is because he can’t find anyone that loves him as much as he does. [LAUGHTER]

mark leibovich

And was always, again, very derivative of the energy that John McCain brought to everything that John McCain did. So, 2015.

archived recording (john mccain)

I’m Lindsey Graham, and I’m running for president of the United States.

mark leibovich

Lindsey Graham decides he’s going to run for president.

archived recording (donald trump)

You know, he lost. So I never liked him as much after that, because I don’t like losers.

mark leibovich

And right out of the gates, Donald Trump insults John McCain.

archived recording (donald trump)

He was not a war hero.

archived recording

He’s a war hero.

archived recording (donald trump)

He is a war hero —

archived recording

Five and a half years —

archived recording (donald trump)

He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured, O.K.? I hate to tell you.

mark leibovich

He was asked, is John McCain a hero? And Donald Trump said, no, he’s not. I like people who weren’t captured.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

I don’t need a poll to tell Donald Trump it’s not good to say that John McCain is a loser because he was captured in a time of war.

mark leibovich

Lindsey Graham, as John McCain’s best friend, was extremely — took great umbrage at this.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

I don’t care if he drops out. Stay in the race, just stop being a [expletive].

mark leibovich

Called Trump — I think it was a [expletive].

archived recording (donald trump)

Today, I got called a [expletive] by this guy. Then I said to myself, hey, didn’t this guy call me, like, four years ago? Yes.

mark leibovich

Donald Trump then, at a campaign event, decided to —

archived recording (donald trump)

I wrote the number down. I don’t know if it’s the right number. Let’s try it. 202 —

mark leibovich

Yell out Lindsey Graham’s cell phone number, which, to my memory, has never been done before in American politics. Predictably, the crank calls, the threats commenced immediately on Lindsey Graham’s cell phone.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

I think he’s a kook. I think he’s crazy. I think he’s unfit for office.

mark leibovich

So the phone thing happens. The relationship did not improve over the course of the campaign.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

He’s a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot.

mark leibovich

To say the least. And then even when Donald Trump was elected, even when he became president, Lindsey Graham and John McCain were still none too happy with the fact that Donald Trump was president. They kind of held their powder for a while. They weren’t terribly vocal. But there were certain occasions where Lindsey Graham was actually quite vocal and really wasn’t trying to hide his feelings at all. After the Charlottesville demonstration and ultimately murder —

archived recording (lindsey graham)

If I were president of the United States and these people showed sympathy toward me and my agenda, it would bother me. And I would urge the president to dissuade them of the fact that he’s sympathetic to their cause.

mark leibovich

— Lindsey Graham was extremely outspoken about how the president should not have spoken out seemingly in favor of the white nationalists.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

Because their cause is hate. It is un-American. They are domestic terrorists. And we need more from our president on this issue.

mark leibovich

And also about the summer later, when Donald Trump and President Putin had that joint press conference in Helsinki, and the president seemed to side with President Putin over the conclusion of his own intelligence that Russia meddled with the election of 2016.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

He’s misjudging Putin. I don’t think he was prepared as well as he should have been.

mark leibovich

Lindsey Graham was not shy at all about speaking out.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

This was a missed opportunity. We reinforced a narrative that’s bad for us as a nation. It came across weak.

mark leibovich

But then something weird happened. [MUSIC]

archived recording (lindsey graham)

I am, like, the happiest dude in America right now. We’ve got a president and a national security team that I’ve been dreaming of for eight years. I like the president. I want to help him. I hope he’s successful. He’s been a friend to me. President Trump has the smarts and the moral courage to listen to his generals. I am all in. Keep it up, Donald. I’m sure you’re watching. President Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize and then some. If you don’t like me working with President Trump to make the world a better place, I don’t give a shit.

mark leibovich

So that’s why people are asking what happened to Lindsey Graham, and I was asking it myself. I mean, I don’t think there was a sharper pivot from vehemently anti-Trump to enthusiastically pro-Trump more so than Lindsey Graham within the Republican Party. So I decided that I would spend some time with Lindsey Graham and see if I could ask him enough questions that maybe he could shed some light on this for me.

mark leibovich (to lindsey graham)

Senator.

lindsey graham

Hey, man.

mark leibovich

Good to see you, man.

lindsey graham

Pull up a chair.

michael barbaro

So, Mark, where did you start your conversation with Graham?

mark leibovich (to lindsey graham)

So I figured I’d start with this.

mark leibovich

I asked Lindsey Graham how he was getting along without John McCain.

lindsey graham

I miss John. I miss him a lot.

mark leibovich

I mean, I hadn’t seen him since John McCain had passed away, which would’ve been in August.

lindsey graham

I still, on occasion, want to pick up the phone and call him. So it was a relationship that was like a political marriage.

mark leibovich

And he said he was doing O.K. He misses him. He thinks about him all the time.

lindsey graham

He loved the contest. He loved being relevant. He kept himself relevant.

mark leibovich

But from there, he jumped immediately to how John McCain made him feel, which was relevant.

lindsey graham

Yeah, and I like being relevant. And the way you stay relevant is you stay engaged. There’s a lot of space here to take on tough issues, because most people shy away from them.

mark leibovich

So Lindsey Graham said, John and I were relevant together. I mean, it was, like, we’re sharing a meal together. We’re sharing a value system together, and that value system was relevance. And I was confused by the word. I said, what do you mean by that? And he said, relevant is like, in the middle of everything. Relevant is you’re making a difference.

lindsey graham

It means that during the time in which you possess political influence and power, you use it.

mark leibovich

John McCain was always surrounded by an entourage. He was always surrounded by cameras. He was always surrounded by a sense that because John McCain was there, something momentous was happening. And Lindsey Graham, by virtue of residency in that orbit, was able to reap that also.

michael barbaro

And so how does Graham explain to you how his relationship with Trump develops and how this evolution kind of lands with him having a relationship with Trump?

lindsey graham

— opponent, and I was calling Trump a race-baiting, religious —

mark leibovich

Oh, I heard everything.

lindsey graham

— xenophobic, and —

mark leibovich

Did you mean that when you said that stuff about Trump?

lindsey graham

Yeah. I didn’t vote for him. I thought his campaign was —

mark leibovich

You didn’t vote for him in the general?

lindsey graham

No.

mark leibovich

Who’d you vote for?

lindsey graham

I voted for Evan whatever-the-guy’s-name-is [INAUDIBLE] walked in the door.

mark leibovich

That dude.

lindsey graham

But I lost. I mean, the people have spoken. So, O.K., let’s see how we can help this guy be a good president.

mark leibovich

I think he knew intuitively that he needed to build a relationship fairly quickly, in part because of political realities in South Carolina and the fact of his re-election coming up in 2020. But —

lindsey graham

I didn’t call him. So he called me about six weeks after, and he said, let’s talk.

mark leibovich

Donald Trump sort of short-circuited the process by calling him first.

lindsey graham

He says, I don’t have your phone number. And I said, there’s a reason for that. And he laughed.

michael barbaro

Because I had to throw it out, because you ruined it.

mark leibovich

Yes. And then —

lindsey graham

Then he took me to the place right off the Oval Office, and we had lunch. And we talked for an hour. And he really seemed to care what I think, what I thought. And he said, I know we’ve had our differences, but I’d like you to help me. I said, I’ll be glad to help you where I can, Mr. President. I want you to be successful.

mark leibovich

Do you like him on a superficial, like, we golf together, we have a little rapport level?

lindsey graham

No. Let me tell you this, that’s what’s changed.

mark leibovich

So you feel a genuine —

lindsey graham

Well, so — I don’t want to be Sigmund Freud. He’s got a tough job.

mark leibovich

Sure.

lindsey graham

I mean, he doesn’t have a whole group of old friends.

mark leibovich

Right.

lindsey graham

The guy is president of the United States. This stuff is coming at him at Mach 2 and 3. He feels completely under siege from the Mueller stuff. And he is trying to navigate all the things that come with being Donald Trump. But there is a side to him that — I’m pulling for him now. Does that make sense?

mark leibovich

Were you before?

lindsey graham

No.

mark leibovich

Like, meaning — give me a time frame.

lindsey graham

I think it’s been the last year.

mark leibovich

Really? O.K.

lindsey graham

Yeah.

michael barbaro

Well, so what actually happens in the past year between Lindsey Graham and President Trump that explains this?

mark leibovich

They’re spending a lot of time together.

lindsey graham

I’ve never been called this much by a president in my life.

mark leibovich

What’s that like?

lindsey graham

It’s weird, and it’s flattering.

mark leibovich

And the time they’re spending together, the votes Lindsey Graham is casting for the Trump agenda.

lindsey graham

The judges have been good. The tax cuts, deregulation, all has worked. He’s rebuilt the military.

mark leibovich

Whether on tax reform, whether on repealing the Affordable Care Act — that was both in 2017, but into 2018 on foreign policy.

lindsey graham

I’m hoping through him that we can do some things in North Korea that maybe we couldn’t have done otherwise.

mark leibovich

Lindsey Graham has certainly ascended to the role of one of Donald Trump’s two or three closest advisers on the Hill. The backdrop to this, though, is that Lindsey Graham’s best friend, John McCain, is going through a very, very public, difficult illness. And Donald Trump basically didn’t let up at all. He was still criticizing John McCain for his vote against the Affordable Care Act repeal of 2017. But also, John McCain, through his office, even through his illness, was not shy about criticizing Donald Trump for things like Helsinki, Charlottesville. And Donald Trump was not one to let this lie and was going to bash John McCain right back. So you had this situation where Lindsey Graham and the president were becoming very close and public friends, whereas John McCain was dying a very, very slow and tragic and public death. So I think people began to ask this question, what was going on with Lindsey Graham, in maybe a more personal framework, because John McCain and he were known to be so close, and John McCain, obviously, was very sick.

michael barbaro

And I wonder, did you ask Graham about how McCain felt about this developing relationship between Graham and Trump, considering their past and McCain’s place in it?

mark leibovich

Yeah, I did.

lindsey graham

Here’s what I told John. He’s president, and I’ve seen you, once the election was over, embrace people.

mark leibovich

Sure.

lindsey graham

And that’s what I admired the most about you. If you could go to Vietnam and forgive them, anybody could. If you could work with Obama, anybody could. And I want to stay in this guy’s orbit.

mark leibovich

So in a way, you’re reminding John McCain of his own example, but also appealing to the ego that John McCain obviously had in very, very high measure.

michael barbaro

And do you know if McCain essentially blessed this or said, I understand, Lindsey?

mark leibovich

I don’t think he blessed it. I think that’s probably too strong. But I think John McCain as well as anyone understands politics. Also, look, he had other things to worry about. He was dying. He was sort of getting his legacy and his affairs in order. He was not at his best in the last year of his life when he was battling brain cancer and so forth.

lindsey graham

So what I’ve done for Trump is I don’t think inconsistent with what I’ve done with others. But here’s the difference. It’s more important, and he’s receptive.

mark leibovich

So John McCain passes away in August. And then just a few weeks later, you had the crescendo of the Brett Kavanaugh hearings. I mean, we all remember a very, very powerful day where there was a sense for about maybe two-thirds of the day that Justice Kavanaugh was in real trouble, that Dr. Ford’s story was extremely compelling. Then all of a sudden, Republicans on the committee were speaking, and Lindsey Graham gave this real show-stopping speech.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

This is the most unethical sham since I’ve been in politics. And if you really wanted to know the truth, you sure as hell wouldn’t have done what you’ve done to this guy.

mark leibovich

That at the moment, people thought might have really changed the momentum of this thing.

archived recording (lindsey graham)

Boy, you all want power. God, I hope you never get it.

michael barbaro

Right. In which he essentially assails the Democratic members of the committee for basically being power-hungry and soulless.

mark leibovich

Power-hungry and smearing and ruining Brett Kavanaugh’s life.

mark leibovich (to lindsey graham)

Did you feel like in any way you had an audience in the White House?

lindsey graham

No.

mark leibovich

There was not an audience —

lindsey graham

I was pissed at everybody on the other side.

mark leibovich

Genuinely.

lindsey graham

It was just like, O.K., I voted for your guys. What’s going on here? I was furious for the way the guy was treated. I’ve had a very fixed view about the law. I mean, that’s been my link. And I just think I don’t want to ruin the judiciary because we can’t get along up here.

mark leibovich

It was a very pitched and partisan setting, obviously. I think the collateral damage there is what it did to his reputation across the aisle, which has not been repaired yet. But in a sense, that sort of played to some very, very strong suits that Lindsey Graham had, beginning with being something that was delightful to the president of the United States and his base.

lindsey graham

The thing I like about the president is that he has allowed me in that space. And after Kavanaugh, it’s even been more.

mark leibovich

I can imagine, yeah.

lindsey graham

He likes a fire.

michael barbaro

After the Kavanaugh hearings, I think the question that everybody has on some low level about what happened to Graham is now the question we’re all openly asking — what happened to Lindsey Graham? So did you actually pose that question?

mark leibovich

Yes, I did.

mark leibovich (to lindsey graham)

You seem a little sick and tired of the “what’s happening to Lindsey Graham?” question.

lindsey graham

Yeah. It’s just like, yeah, O.K. Nothing, from my point of view. If you know anything about me, it’d be odd for me not to do this.

mark leibovich

Now what is “this“? To work with him, or —

lindsey graham

This is to try to be relevant.

mark leibovich

Try to be relevant.

mark leibovich (to michael barbaro)

In a sense, he uses the notion of relevance as a catch-all.

mark leibovich

But to what end? I mean, because you’re —

lindsey graham

To the ends, to the objectives that I want.

mark leibovich (to michael barbaro)

Look, the uncharitable way of describing this would be opportunism. The charitable way of saying this would be influence. And the fact is, one of the central dynamics of Washington, circa 2019, circa the Trump administration, is that never has the decision point been so wrapped up in the mercurialness of one single person as it is right now in Donald Trump’s orbit. And Lindsey Graham has made himself a part of that orbit. Now, it might not last beyond next week. It might not last beyond his re-election. Who knows where this is going to end? Lindsey Graham posed that question himself to me. But for now, he seems to think it’s very, very advantageous for him politically.

michael barbaro

But I want to linger on that word “opportunism,” because if you look at the chronology, one view — and perhaps it’s the most cynical view — is that Lindsey Graham, in the name of relevance, attached himself to the biggest star in Republican politics for a very long time, and that was Senator John McCain. And then when Senator John McCain declines and ultimately dies, Lindsey Graham looks for the next biggest star to attach himself to, and that happens to be Donald Trump. And so despite the fact that these two men disdain each other and represent very different sides of the Republican Party, the constant is Lindsey Graham seeking out the star.

mark leibovich

It is. And at one point, I just sort of blurted out, do you trust him? Meaning the president. And it took him a while to answer. He seemed taken aback by that. And what he said was, I trust him to want to be successful — which is kind of a non-answer. I mean, what president doesn’t want to be successful, right? I mean, I think if I were to ask him, do you trust John McCain, he would say, I trust John McCain to love America and to always do what is right for America and to always work for a cause greater than himself. I remember asking him at one point, do you think Donald Trump believes in a cause greater than himself? And he said something to the effect that, well, Donald Trump’s a showman. He’s a larger-than-life figure. He wants to be successful. Look, there are a lot of people who say, Lindsey, you know better. How can you live with yourself? What are you doing? And he couches it in the virtue of, look, I believe very strongly in certain things around Syria, around Afghanistan, around judges.

lindsey graham

That it is about outcomes, that I’ve got an opportunity up here working with the president to get some outcomes that could be really good for the country and I think, from my point of view, good for the world.

mark leibovich

Being relevant to Donald Trump, being in his orbit, helps me influence the things that I think are good for our country. And then —

mark leibovich (to lindsey graham)

And good for your re-election.

mark leibovich

I cynically said, and also good for Lindsey Graham’s re-election.

lindsey graham

Yeah. I mean, if you don’t want to get re-elected, you’re in the wrong business.

mark leibovich

He sort of glibly said, well, if you don’t want to be re-elected, you’re in the wrong business. I mean, this question of what is going on with Lindsey Graham is so present around him, it’s come to define him so much, that he felt completely at home even raising the question rhetorically on the stump in South Carolina.

lindsey graham

Can you see me? [LAUGHTER] Think I’m getting taller, and you guys are getting smaller.

mark leibovich

There was a Republican lunch we went to in Greenville, where he was saying —

lindsey graham

What’s happened to Lindsey Graham?

mark leibovich

What happened to me? And he said it twice. And he said —

lindsey graham

What’s happened to Lindsey Graham? Not a damn thing. Nothing.

mark leibovich

Not a damn thing. And people kind of nodded knowingly. And what he was doing was sort of owning the question. He was sort of taking it as a part of his political identity. But at the same time, he was being defiant about it, too. And he kept talking about how, look, all the smart people in Washington, they hate us. The people in the media, they hate us. They hate him, him being Donald Trump. Essentially, it’s sort of an old populist refrain, which is they don’t — they look down on our way of life. Literally the next day in his office in Washington, he was talking about how you showcase your issues. This is what you do when you’re running for re-election. He was —

michael barbaro

He was being one of the smart guys.

mark leibovich

He was becoming one of the smart people. He was talking to me, wise guy to wise guy. And he was essentially giving away the game, as if his Senate office in Washington and a luncheon hall in Greenville, South Carolina were completely different worlds that have nothing to do with each other.

michael barbaro

And it sounds like at the end of the day, he is being honest in the sense that nothing did happen to him. He is the same guy.

mark leibovich

Yeah, here’s the thing. I was pretty struck by how honest, how candid he was in talking about what his game was, what he was doing. Him explicitly saying, you showcase your issues, meaning you say certain things when you’re running for re-election, essentially.

michael barbaro

To certain audiences.

mark leibovich

To certain audiences. He said facetiously — but not really facetiously — you recall that in 2010, John McCain turned himself into the most conservative senator in the Senate when he was running for re-election in 2010. That was the re-election when John McCain sort of tried to disassociate himself with the term “maverick,” when, in fact, two years earlier, he had based his entire presidential campaign about being a maverick. People at that point were asking, what’s going on with John McCain? So I think, in a sense, he was pointing out the synergy between his hero eight years ago and what he was going through today. But again, that’s a pretty transparent way of looking at and describing what is happening to someone when they are essentially doing political contortions. [MUSIC] Lindsey Graham is, one, a good politician, two, someone who is fully aware of what the political reality is for him as a conservative or someone who wants to be re-elected in a very conservative state and a very conservative party, and is someone who knows very much how Washington works.

michael barbaro

That he’s up front about what this is and what it isn’t and the degree to which this is an opportunistic transactional relationship.

mark leibovich

Yeah, he would call it politics.

michael barbaro

Mark, thank you very much.

mark leibovich

Thank you, Michael. Great to be with you.

lindsey graham

[APPLAUSE] Thank you very, very much. Wow. Wow. I came to the right place.

michael barbaro

Over the weekend, Lindsey Graham spoke at the annual gathering of the Conservative Political Action Conference, where he once again praised President Trump and boasted about their close relationship.

lindsey graham