Lobber Profile Joined August 2010 Canada 414 Posts Last Edited: 2012-01-27 02:46:08 #1



However, I now bring you a more macro friendly version of the same build, NOW WITH MORE NEXUS! I belive this could potentially become a standard, opening just like sentry expand or ffe, safe vs everything, and able to transition vs anything, just like other standard builds.



Now I've been using this on and off for the last month or so, unfortunately I have hundreds of games played of 3-5 accounts over the last month, and I've only used it in about 20% of my PvZs, so it's been hard to find all my replays.



Build order time!



2 CB nexus

Pylon

13 gate

14 assim

Pylon

Cyber

17 zealot CB*

Probe*

Assimilator*

20 Zealot CB*



*slight probe cuts, you want 2 zealots out for when cyber finishes. The reason for the 2 zealots is that later when you drop, you want a zealot at home to wall off and there's no time to build one later.



At this point you should have scouted out the zerg, I usually send out a delayed scout on 4 player maps, or no scout on 2 player maps. With your fast 2 zealots you are going to pressure/poke yay! Your goal with this is simply to force out a few lings, maybe smack the hatch/queen a bit if you're risky, but be conservative with them, you want them alive. Usually I want to go up to their natural, try to pick off any of his initial lings, then go back home, keep in mind speed will hit at 5:15, so be nearly home by then vs gas opening, if no gas, you can stay out a bit longer but try to keep them alive to bring back home.



Sentry CB

Pylon

Sentry/robo

Robo/sentry

Sentry

Warpgate



Warp gate is quite delayed, the gas needed for it is not readily available with this build, I plan to experiment a bit with earlier 2nd gas, or maybe a gas first with this build to see how it times out, but I haven't done that yet, may update later.



Pylon

Warp prism CB

Sentry

Gateway



I'm sort of just guessing the pylon timings, just don't supply block and you're good. So here is right when your warprism has popped out, you should have 2 zealots, 3 sentries, another sentry nearly done and an immortal started back at your robo. You're going to take your first 3 sentries and a zealot and go try to drop their main mineral line, assuming you don't run over an overlord on your way there you should be able to get some kills quite easily, target drones, ff drones in and other units away. Also ffing in queens and picking them off is good as well. Unspotted you should be able to get 3+ drones or a queen, if you are spotted, try to ff there ramp, and go where his units aren't, pick off whatever you can, then go back home and drop off your units.



Constant immortal production CB

Constant sentry/zealot production as gas allows.



Expand as you have money for and as his aggression allows, if he has few units and you feel safe off the warp prism scout, expand earlier, the only real thread is mass mass speedling, and you can spot that easily, roaches or slow lings, or not super mass speedling is easy to hold.



Once your warp prism has dropped off your units, you're going to pick up 2 immortals and go harass, pick off roaches, drones, and spines as you can, remember if all he has is a queen and some out of position lings, you can pick off 3-4 drones with stutter stepping immortal shots before the warpprism runs out of shield and you want to pick up and leave, if surrounded/attacked by lings, target fire drones/roaches in range and pick up as shields run out. Turn back and keep control of the watch towers with your immortal warp prism.



Add 2 gates as you can

Wall off pylons/gates at your natural leave a 1 spot opening you can block with a hold pos zealot. Push at either your 4th or 5th immortal (preference based) Your army should be 4-5 immortals, 7-9 sentries, 1-4 zealots, and whatever you warp in on your way with your warp prism. This push should leave between 9:30-10:30. This army should never ever have to die, you have DOZENS of forcefields available, I frequently win with this push, frequently do massive damage, and if I ever feel I can't do anything, or I'm being overwhelmed, I can ff his army off and retreat. While you are pushing with your army, I send the warpprism to the back of his main and warpin rounds of 4 zealots, kill drones/queens/spires/infestation pits, keep warping in, you can use this to distract his army out of position before you push, or as a dual pronged attack, however, if you scout/think he's going muta, you can either try to snipe spire with zealots, or warp in stalkers to reinforce your army, if he is going mutas HE WILL NOT have enough to stop your army without them, usually you can kill his 3rd/natural, everything there, then you will lose your army to mutas, that's assuming you are harassing with the zealots, if you reinforce with stalkers, with sentry stalker with GS you should be able to hold in most cases, but if you can't you will lose everything, and be much less well-off later.



WHILE YOU ARE PUSHING/post push

You should have your natural wall off blocked by a hold pos zealot. Get your 3rd maybe 4th gas, usually just your third then delay the 4th, get a forge and 1-2 more gates, if you suspect mutas, 1-2 gates, twilight, and cannons, if he's holding with ground units, forge, get upgrades, get robo bay, add gates and twilight later as you can, get 4th gas, take third when your army comes back home.



Post push, if he held with ground units, you should have been able to deal some damage to his army, while keeping most your sentries and all your immortals alive, use your army, take out rocks if needed, take a third, get robo bay and obs, scout him, colossus, 3 base toss with good army is good vs ground. Just play standard, usually you're ahead in army tech/comp with a good eco, play smart, don't be over eager, harass with warp prism as you can.



If it turns into him going muta, usually you might have some trouble having enough units to hold his mutas, learn to know when to stop trying to reinforce your army, and build up units at home, get cannons, more gates, blink, get a third as he's rebuilding, you should be fine.



Replays: These are just what I could find easily off my main account, not as many as I'd like, and most not executed very well, but it should give a good idea, I will update the replay list/build as I play more, and get more games.



TSLKiller-ling counter attacks into spine muta off 1 base

+ Show Spoiler + Vs TSLKiller, not the greatest execution by me at all, I wasn't playing smart or well, but the game is still very close, there are plenty of tiny mistakes that if I did just a little better I would have won pretty easily, not bad vs a Korean zerg. I lost my first 2 zealots as I'm running across the map, I microd poorly and chose a bad spot to engage, first mistakes. I chose to drop with just 3 sentries, he pulls drones and I get no kills, but I delay mining for about a minute from the main. I expand at 8 minutes around when my 2nd immortal pops out. Worker count is 25-33. He has a third hatch but no tech. He does a ling attack I lose a few sentries to lings, bad trade but now I know I'm safe from attacks for a while. at 9:30 he tries another ling attack, I lose a couple probes but no units, he loses ~20 lings, he'd double me in workers though. I push out at ~10 minutes with 3 immortals 2 zealots a stalker and 7 sentries, lower unit counter and bad probe count for this build... He ling counter attacks, my zealot isn't on hold position so I lose my natural, I ff my main off and take out his third and natural, he has mass spine in his main, turns into 1 base vs 1 base but I lose due to muta+spine being better than a mined out protoss. In the end its super close despite how poorly I executed.



Vs Stabby-Heavy early eco into fast muta, spine ling muta defense.



+ Show Spoiler + First 2 zealots kill a couple and force a couple lings, I retreat and bring them home. Drop seem a bit late this game, leaving at 7:00 minutes. 8:30 I expand, I killed 5 workers and forced quite a few lings with my drop, 29-31 workers however he has 11 building on 3 hatch. He gets early spire before 9 minutes. With my 2 immortal drops I kill a couple workers and a spine, 11 minutes I'm moving out, 36 probes to 52 drones, my army is over triple his in size. 11:30 muta spine ling, I kill his third and most his army, most his spines, his mutas clean up my army, meanwhile I've been warping in zealot/stalker in his main, killed most his mineral line and a lot of mutas go down. 15 minutes, 48 probes-15 drone, 2-2 bases, 8 mutas to 2 stalkers, but mutas are on his side of the map. By the time the mutas get to my base, I have blink half done, more than enough stalkers, and from here I just win easily.



Lobber vs bioice-ling baneling counter attack, mass +1 lings



+ Show Spoiler + He goes for 6 lings to start, and builds more after, I don't lose my zealots. I made it look a lot more like a sentry expo, this game to see how it felt. drop leaves at 7 minutes with 3 sentries 1 zealot, I have 2 zealot 2 sentry at my ramp. He has mass ling with 2 spines, my drop does nothing, I expanded at 8:20. His first ling attack kills nothing, loses a lot of lings 30 probes to 28 drones. I move out at 11 minutes with 4 immortal 5 zealot 10 sentry, with 2 of those zealot/sentry at home, he baneling busts just after I leave and ling floods me, I commit to the attack with my army, save my probes, and wall off my main, 39-39 workers, but my nat is dying and he's on 3 base. I get into his main and ff him out, lose about half my army though. 14 minutes, his main is dead, I'm still ff his army out, he's counter attacking my main with ling bane, but I'm ff him out there as well, I then start to snipe his natural from the main's high ground. I kill all his lings attacking my main, he tries to re-attack my army at his natural ramp, I save it with ffs, BM happens throughout and after the game for great justice.



Lobber vs Massan-infestor roach ling



+ Show Spoiler + Start first zealot before cyber to test it out, force out 12 lings and nearly kill queen, save the zealots. Drop leaves at 7 minutes, again walling off my nat with pylons before expanding. Drop kills nothing; lose a zealot and sentry... Bad... Expanded a little before 8 minutes this time. 9:30, immortal drop going out, nexus just finished, 30 probes to 47 workers, third started for zerg. Immortals damage the hatch, kill nothing. Push out at 11 minutes with 9 sentry, 5 immortal 3 zealot, have 37 probes, slightly better army/probe count than most games but zerg has taken no damage all game... Send warp prism to the back, he keeps about 20 lings watching it in the main, I ff the main off and he has roach infestor ling, I lose most my sentries and zealot right away but I get a lot of ffs off, I kill a lot with the remaining immortals, 5 immortals goods vs infestor roach... Meanwhile, multiple zealot warpins in his main kills his main base. I win with that.



Lobber vs Zoohairz-ling counter attack, roach ling spire, low eco early hurts him

+ Show Spoiler +

My first 2 zealots force out 10 lings but die on their way home after his speed finishes, he then builds ~24 lings total looking to counter attack, and camps my natural has lings ready to counter attack, his roach warren started. I get 2 queen kills and a drone kill; I get really nice ffs with the drop. I expand a little after 9 minutes, even worker count, my army is better by a lot. Kill a couple drones and roaches with my immortal drop. Push out at 12 minutes with 4 immortal 9 sentries and a colossus. Defend ling counter attack with zealot warp in, win with push.



Lobber vs Destiny 1-must watch, roach ling-roach ling corrupter



+ Show Spoiler + Force 10 lings, save my zealots, much faster robo this game, actually started my zealots much later this time. Warpprism pops at 6 minutes, this seems much better, this BO and timing is probably the best of them all. He spots warpprism with lings just as it leaves, he loses nothing, and I lose nothing, delay mining bit. Expanded at 7:40. Supply block really bad, money goes high, unit count low, forgot/delayed 2nd gate. Immortal drops do no damage; I push out at 10 minutes, worker count 35-44 for zerg, his gold third almost done. Army count is 4 immortal 9 sentry 2 zealot, fastest time, best army, use this build. He hold with roach ling drone, I kill a lot of units, ff him off, he pulls drones, I back off, I lose nearly nothing. I was warping in at his main, killed queen, couple drones, a couple units. I expand at 14 minutes, it's 54 workers to 45 workers in my favor, 6 immortal 9 sentry at my natural, his army is 24 roach, 33 ling at his base. Colossus and +1 on the way for me, more gates up as well. I push at 15 minutes with 150 supply, 3 bases 60 probes, 2 colossi with range, +1, 12 full e sentries, 8 stalkers. He is at 50 drones, 30 roach, 40 ling, a few corrupters. I crush him. This game best by far, actually one of my earlier tests of the builds, didn't realize until now how much better this is than my current builds, wow... Anyways, he no gg, we message each other a bit over Bnet, agree to play again to test the build, he thinks it's not viable.



Lobber vs Destiny2, testing game, longer game, roach ling infestor



+ Show Spoiler + I save zealots, only force 6 lings. I was tired, make a lot of mistakes (~ at 4 am this game, and a little leftover inebriated from earlier that night...) Warprism pops at 6:30, already 30 seconds late this game... Expand at 8 minutes, kill nothing with drop but an overlord, he's got some ling/roach out, I'm already really behind. Immortal drop kills nothing. 10 minutes, 40-35 drones: probes, 4 immortal 2 zealot 6 sentry vs 12 roach 40 ling. Hit his base at 11 minutes, 40:40 workers, 4 immortal 10 sentry vs 20 roach 45 ling, his burrow/burrow move finishes. I ff poorly trying to retreat and lose a lot of units killing nothing. He's attacking my nat at 12 minutes, his roach speed just finishing, 45 probe:40 drone, 4 immortal 4 stalker 6 sentry vs 26 roach,14 ling. Resources lost is similar, but I’ve lost A LOT of gas, he's lost only lings... 13:30 he's retreated to the middle, 45:36 workers in my favor. He's ahead in supply, he's got hydra den and double evo on the way, I've got 3 more gates and robo bay on the way. He's got no third base, even though I'm down in supply I'd say I'm even/ahead in tech, way better off in economy, I'm actually in a pretty good spot despite doing no damage with any drops, my attack failing... The only way the zerg can counter this with ground units is to put themselves behind in economy... At 16 minutes he snipes my 3rd in exchange for some roaches I should have pushed right away, instead I expand, take out my rocks, add a lot of pylons/tech/upgrades...I attack 2 minutes later with an army that's not much bigger but he now has a lot of infestors with upgrades I back off, expand to my 4th. I attack at 20 minutes, both near max ~ 170 supplies, I clump badly and am half on creep. 60 lings, 30 roach 11 infestor vs 4 immortal 3 colossus 30 stalker 6 sentry. I ff really late, left him mass fungal and neural everything... I think I could have won and was quite ahead but my final engage is super bad. I think that a zerg can't really defend with ground and come out even/ahead.



Lobber vs akrhrh



+ Show Spoiler + I'm sick of typing, analysis later.



Wrap up:

After going over the replays and analyzing watch the games vs destiny to see the best execution of the build, especially game 1 on ladder. I think that holding with roach/ling should always go in favor of the P, holding with hydra on 3 base, P will kill the third, holding with hydra on 2 base, P can ff and retreat picking off a few units, colossus follow up with a fast third should be fine, vs ling bane you might need to be more defensive, maybe not push, expand and just be ahead in tech. Vs muta the build needs more testing, I think if you do it right and on time, you should come out ahead or even, in the worst case you should be able to make it 2 base vs 2 base, get blink and then expand, and be in a better position to be 3 base vs muta than a lot of ffe builds vs muta. 2 base vs muta I find is almost always a win for zerg if you can't get that third, but if you can get it, P is a lot better off. Again, more testing vs muta needed before I can decide how best to do it, and how best to follow up.



Shameless self-promotion/shout outs.



<3 to TTEsports for sponsoring me and many other teams, players, and events, you guys kick ass. Follow me on twitter @ Lobber0. If you want to ask questions about the build, message me on Bnet @ lobber.393, over skype @ rx.lobber, or pm me over TL. My stream is



My grammer is pretty awful, if anything doesn't make sense tell me, will update the build and my explinations as I test a bit more. Comments, questions, and possible corrections appreciated, be nice though.



rawrrr Background: Well my 1 base PvZ build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290798 has been on the front page of the TL strategy section since I made it back a month and a half ago. I still have a high win rate with it, and sometimes still use it, but I found it simply too counterable by someone who knows the build. That being said, if I'm playing a Korean zerg, or a known high level zerg player who I suspect doesn't go on tl strategy that much... then I bust it out for a free win most the time.However, I now bring you a more macro friendly version of the same build, NOW WITH MORE NEXUS! I belive this could potentially become a standard, opening just like sentry expand or ffe, safe vs everything, and able to transition vs anything, just like other standard builds.Now I've been using this on and off for the last month or so, unfortunately I have hundreds of games played of 3-5 accounts over the last month, and I've only used it in about 20% of my PvZs, so it's been hard to find all my replays.Build order time!2 CB nexusPylon13 gate14 assimPylonCyber17 zealot CB*Probe*Assimilator*20 Zealot CB**slight probe cuts, you want 2 zealots out for when cyber finishes. The reason for the 2 zealots is that later when you drop, you want a zealot at home to wall off and there's no time to build one later.At this point you should have scouted out the zerg, I usually send out a delayed scout on 4 player maps, or no scout on 2 player maps. With your fast 2 zealots you are going to pressure/poke yay! Your goal with this is simply to force out a few lings, maybe smack the hatch/queen a bit if you're risky, but be conservative with them, you want them alive. Usually I want to go up to their natural, try to pick off any of his initial lings, then go back home, keep in mind speed will hit at 5:15, so be nearly home by then vs gas opening, if no gas, you can stay out a bit longer but try to keep them alive to bring back home.Sentry CBPylonSentry/roboRobo/sentrySentryWarpgateWarp gate is quite delayed, the gas needed for it is not readily available with this build, I plan to experiment a bit with earlier 2nd gas, or maybe a gas first with this build to see how it times out, but I haven't done that yet, may update later.PylonWarp prism CBSentryGatewayI'm sort of just guessing the pylon timings, just don't supply block and you're good. So here is right when your warprism has popped out, you should have 2 zealots, 3 sentries, another sentry nearly done and an immortal started back at your robo. You're going to take your first 3 sentries and a zealot and go try to drop their main mineral line, assuming you don't run over an overlord on your way there you should be able to get some kills quite easily, target drones, ff drones in and other units away. Also ffing in queens and picking them off is good as well. Unspotted you should be able to get 3+ drones or a queen, if you are spotted, try to ff there ramp, and go where his units aren't, pick off whatever you can, then go back home and drop off your units.Constant immortal production CBConstant sentry/zealot production as gas allows.Expand as you have money for and as his aggression allows, if he has few units and you feel safe off the warp prism scout, expand earlier, the only real thread is mass mass speedling, and you can spot that easily, roaches or slow lings, or not super mass speedling is easy to hold.Once your warp prism has dropped off your units, you're going to pick up 2 immortals and go harass, pick off roaches, drones, and spines as you can, remember if all he has is a queen and some out of position lings, you can pick off 3-4 drones with stutter stepping immortal shots before the warpprism runs out of shield and you want to pick up and leave, if surrounded/attacked by lings, target fire drones/roaches in range and pick up as shields run out. Turn back and keep control of the watch towers with your immortal warp prism.Add 2 gates as you canWall off pylons/gates at your natural leave a 1 spot opening you can block with a hold pos zealot. Push at either your 4th or 5th immortal (preference based) Your army should be 4-5 immortals, 7-9 sentries, 1-4 zealots, and whatever you warp in on your way with your warp prism. This push should leave between 9:30-10:30. This army should never ever have to die, you have DOZENS of forcefields available, I frequently win with this push, frequently do massive damage, and if I ever feel I can't do anything, or I'm being overwhelmed, I can ff his army off and retreat. While you are pushing with your army, I send the warpprism to the back of his main and warpin rounds of 4 zealots, kill drones/queens/spires/infestation pits, keep warping in, you can use this to distract his army out of position before you push, or as a dual pronged attack, however, if you scout/think he's going muta, you can either try to snipe spire with zealots, or warp in stalkers to reinforce your army, if he is going mutas HE WILL NOT have enough to stop your army without them, usually you can kill his 3rd/natural, everything there, then you will lose your army to mutas, that's assuming you are harassing with the zealots, if you reinforce with stalkers, with sentry stalker with GS you should be able to hold in most cases, but if you can't you will lose everything, and be much less well-off later.WHILE YOU ARE PUSHING/post pushYou should have your natural wall off blocked by a hold pos zealot. Get your 3rd maybe 4th gas, usually just your third then delay the 4th, get a forge and 1-2 more gates, if you suspect mutas, 1-2 gates, twilight, and cannons, if he's holding with ground units, forge, get upgrades, get robo bay, add gates and twilight later as you can, get 4th gas, take third when your army comes back home.Post push, if he held with ground units, you should have been able to deal some damage to his army, while keeping most your sentries and all your immortals alive, use your army, take out rocks if needed, take a third, get robo bay and obs, scout him, colossus, 3 base toss with good army is good vs ground. Just play standard, usually you're ahead in army tech/comp with a good eco, play smart, don't be over eager, harass with warp prism as you can.If it turns into him going muta, usually you might have some trouble having enough units to hold his mutas, learn to know when to stop trying to reinforce your army, and build up units at home, get cannons, more gates, blink, get a third as he's rebuilding, you should be fine.Replays: These are just what I could find easily off my main account, not as many as I'd like, and most not executed very well, but it should give a good idea, I will update the replay list/build as I play more, and get more games.Wrap up:After going over the replays and analyzing watch the games vs destiny to see the best execution of the build, especially game 1 on ladder. I think that holding with roach/ling should always go in favor of the P, holding with hydra on 3 base, P will kill the third, holding with hydra on 2 base, P can ff and retreat picking off a few units, colossus follow up with a fast third should be fine, vs ling bane you might need to be more defensive, maybe not push, expand and just be ahead in tech. Vs muta the build needs more testing, I think if you do it right and on time, you should come out ahead or even, in the worst case you should be able to make it 2 base vs 2 base, get blink and then expand, and be in a better position to be 3 base vs muta than a lot of ffe builds vs muta. 2 base vs muta I find is almost always a win for zerg if you can't get that third, but if you can get it, P is a lot better off. Again, more testing vs muta needed before I can decide how best to do it, and how best to follow up.Shameless self-promotion/shout outs.<3 to TTEsports for sponsoring me and many other teams, players, and events, you guys kick ass. Follow me on twitter @ Lobber0. If you want to ask questions about the build, message me on Bnet @ lobber.393, over skype @ rx.lobber, or pm me over TL. My stream is www.twitch.tv/alltheusernamesweretaken <3 out to twitch for partnering with me and being great. Also my MMR is high GM on NA and low GM on KR, I play full time(no job, playing 8+ hours a day at least for the next ~6 months), and am still team less, any decent teams should want meMy grammer is pretty awful, if anything doesn't make sense tell me, will update the build and my explinations as I test a bit more. Comments, questions, and possible corrections appreciated, be nice though.rawrrr You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.